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From: "Cheng Hong" <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>
To: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" <boohara@cisco.com>,
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	Saravanan Govindan <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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Hi Bob,
=20
Let's get this straight again, hopefully, it is the last time. We have
been deviated from the real technical issue by your non-technical
comments too many times. And, by the way, they are not funny at all :)
=20
No one is asking for assistance of protocol design from you or Cisco as
a commercial entity. The question was raised since you claim that your
proposal is workable, and should be adopted by the CAPWAP WG into the
protocol design. Shouldn't any member of this WG demand a bit more
information to justify your assertion? I think as a veteran of
standardization, you should know this better than anyone else ?!
=20
If you plainly refuse to provide any information on that, please stop
talking again like "xxx products works fine like this, and there is no
problem", since it is simply not verifiable.=20
=20
cheers
=20
Cheng Hong
=20
=20
=20


  _____ =20

From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 12:10 AM
To: Cheng Hong; Dorothy Stanley
Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB);
capwap@frascone.com; Saravanan Govindan
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations


I am afraid that requesting design assistance from a competitor is very
close to violation of U.S anti-trust laws.  I will not describe how
Cisco has designed any of its products and I cannot help you design
yours.
=20
Again, your proposal does not eliminate any attack mechanism and does
not add any functionality to the protocol, only cost and complexity.  A
replayed frame will be discarded by the MAC, using the normal duplicate
frame detection mechanisms.  See section 8.3.3.3.2 of 802.11i (where the
frame sequence number is part of the additional authenticated data) and
section 9.2.9 of 802.11-1999 for the description of these functions.
And PLEASE read 802.11 and 802.11i before again asserting that this
proposal is necessary.
=20
As I said several emails ago, the ONLY effect of using zero as the value
for the KeyRSC is that the 802.11 chipset in the STA (client) will have
to receive the frame, attempt to decrypt it, and validate the MIC.  This
must be done for EVERY frame received, whether it is a replayed frame or
not.  This set of functions is performed in the 802.11 STA chipset and
does not consume any additional resources of the STA.  So, the attack,
if it can even be characterized as an attack, is no more effective at
DOSing the STA than sending it any other frame.

 -Bob
 =20

=20

  _____ =20

From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:34 PM
To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); Dorothy Stanley
Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB);
capwap@frascone.com; Saravanan Govindan
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations


Hi Bob,
=20
As Dorothy correctly pointed out below, setting the KeyRSC to a value
closer to the current RSC would be better than setting it to a
pre-defined value zero.=20
=20
It is true that 802.11i and 802.1X do not specify what is the KeyRSC
value to be used, since they are trying to provide us a tool to
correctly synchronize the RSC using the Msg 3. By mandating the KeyRSC
to zero, we are just disabling the tool. It is not wrong, but just
deprives the system a designed function.
=20
As for the effectiveness of KeyRSC, setting it to a predefined value of
0 would pose a greater threat. In a simple example, if the RSC is
currently 1000, and we are mandating the KeyRSC to be always zero, the
attacker basically can safely replay the last 1000 packets to the STA
without being detected. If the KeyRSC can be set to a closer value of
the current RSC, say, 900, the number of possible replayed packets can
be reduced to 10 percent, 100 packets.=20
=20
Therefore, I would say, setting the KeyRSC value to zero does place a
bigger threat. Is that how the cisco products implemented? Maybe you
could share with us some other implementation/testing data to prove
otherwise. Or, you have some other considerations that could defend the
replay attack?
=20
cheers
=20
Cheng Hong
=20


  _____ =20

From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:21 AM
To: Dorothy Stanley
Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson
J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations


Dorothy,
=20
The problem with this proposal is that it is no more effective than
sending a value of zero for the KeyRSC.  It doesn't eliminate any
potential attacks.  It doesn't add any functionality.  However, it does
add cost and complexity to the protocol. =20

 -Bob
 =20

=20

  _____ =20

From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:17 PM
To: Bob O'Hara (boohara)
Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson
J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations


All,

Below is the text from 802.11REV-maD8.0 Clause 8.5.2, describing the Key
RSC field.:

"g) Key RSC. This field is 8 octets in length. It contains the receive
sequence counter (RSC) for the
GTK being installed in IEEE 802.11. It is used in Message 3 of the 4-Way
Handshake and
Message 1 of the Group Key Handshake, where it is used to synchronize
the IEEE 802.11 replay
state. It may also be used in the Michael MIC Failure Report frame, to
report the TSC field value of
the frame experiencing a MIC failure. It shall contain 0 in other
messages. The Key RSC field gives
the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify
replayed MPDUs. If the Key
RSC field value is less than 8 octets in length, the remaining octets
shall be set to 0. The least significant
octet of the TSC or PN should be in the first octet of the Key RSC
field."

The intent of adding this value in message 3 was to immediately minimize
the number of=20
replayed frames that a STA would potentially process: "The Key RSC field
gives
the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify
replayed MPDUs."
Setting the value to 0 in Msg 3 does not provide the current sequence
counter (in most cases
not even close) of the GTK..

Perhaps the WTP could periodically/frequently notify the AC of its
current GTK sequence counter, and the
AC would use the most recently received value in the message 3 sent to
new STAs. The RSC value
would not be  up to date at all times, but would be closer than "0", not
require an "in-the-critical-path
message exchange between the AC and WTP, and still be close to the
intended use of the field.

Dorothy


On 9/28/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) <boohara@cisco.com> wrote:=20

Please understand that 802.11i specifies no behavior in this area for
the 802.1X authenticator.  Our choice to send a group key KeyRSC value
of zero in the EAPOL-key frame requires no change to 802.11i or to
802.1X .  It requires us to state this in the CAPWAP spec, if we want
this behavior to be consistent across all implementations.

The problem with what Bechet and Saranavan are asking is that either of
three different things are required:=20
1: the WTP must communicate the group key TSC to the AC every time it is
updated, or
2: the AC must request the current value of the group key TSC for the
KeyRSC before constructing the EAPOL-key frame, or
3: the AC must send the KCK to the AC so  that it can insert the KeyRSC
value and also calculate the correct MIC, inserting that into the proper
EAPOL-key frame.

The first item requires a tremendous amount of additional CAPWAP=20
communication between WTP and AC, at least one new CAPWAP packet for
every multicast frame sent by the WTP, if the packet is not
acknowledged, or two new CAPWAP packets, if it is acknowledged.  This is
a very expensive addition to the protocol.=20

The second item requires new protocol between the AC and WTP during what
can be a time critical portion of the 802.11 transition (handoff, roam)
from one WTP to another.  It also introduces a race condition that is=20
not present in the protocol today.  Once the value for the KeyRSC is
sent from the WTP to the AC, it is possible that the WTP can send
another multicast frame encrypted with the group key.  This puts the
value of the sequence counter out of sync with the value that will be=20
shortly communicated to the client in the EAPOL-key frame from the AC.
This will behave exactly the same as if a value of zero is sent in the
EAPOL-key frame.

The third item requires a new architecture split that is not required in

our objectives.  The new split is not splitting the MAC, but splitting
the authenticator.  Placing the KCK in the WTP is also a potential
reduction in the security of the overall WLAN system, since these
devices are normally not in a secured wiring closet, but exposed and=20
more easily compromised than the AC.

The simplest to implement, least expensive, and most secure option is to
use the protocol as it is now specified and have the AC send a value of
zero in the KeyRSC field of the EAPOL-key frame.=20

-Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:50 PM
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;=20
Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
Cc: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations

Hi Pat and all,

So, based on this, I would say that we have consensus that setting the=20
correct KeyRSC is an issue for the CAPWAP protocol design.

So far, we have three option/solutions:

1) As proposed by Bob: Using a static value (0) for the KeyRSC.

2) As suggested by Behcet: AC communicate a correct KeyRSC to WTP=20

3) As suggested by Saravanana: Some exchange mechanism between WTP and
AC

Among the three, the first option seems the easiest. However, it
requires a mandated Authenticator behavior(in this case AC) that is not=20
mandated by 802.11. Therefore, we have to specify that (e.g. as proposed
by Bob: "We could include a note to the effect that the group KeyRSC
should be zero in the EAPOL-key frame.") either in CAPWAP or 802.11,
because otherwise there is no interoperability. For example, AC provided
by another vendor does not have to set KeyRSC to 0 to be compliant with
CAPWAP and 802.11i.

Another implication is that we don't really understand the impact of=20
mandating a static KeyRSC value. Although Bob provided an excellent
analysis, I still have some doubts about the profoundness of the impact.
If the KeyRSC value is as described of no use, why would it appear in
the EAPOL frames in the first place? By mandating it to static value,
what have we lost? Maybe some liaison letter to 802.1 or 802.11 could
provide us a better understanding of the issue.

For the last two options, I think they are both within CAPWAP's scope.=20
Further analysis could help us to decide which one  is better (or
someone could propose other solutions).

cheers

Cheng Hong







> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto: pcalhoun@cisco.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:39 AM
> To: Cheng Hong; Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;
> Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> Considerations
>
> Bob's point is 802.11i works this way today. The AP (or in=20
> this case AC) can set the RSC to whatever value it wishes.
> Bob used zero (0) as an example. Implementations could use
> any other value, which would require some form of
> communication to the WTP, as suggested by Behcet.=20
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cheng Hong [mailto:  <mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>
Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:03 PM
> > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson
> J (LI/EAB)
> > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > Considerations
> >
> > Hi Bob,
> >
> > If I understand your description below correct, you are proposing a=20
> > solution (to the problem pointed out by
> > Saravanan) by mandating the behavior of the AC to always set the
> > KeyRSC in the 4-way handshake to zero.
> >
> > This is not a defined behavior according to the current=20
> > 802.11 standard.
> > Are you suggesting that we CAPWAP WG should specifically
> mandate that
> > in our CAPWAP protocol spec, e.g. something like "a CAPWAP
> compatible
> > AC MUST set KeyRSC to zero"? Otherwise, the problem still exists,
> > since not all AC implementation have to follow what you described.
> >
> > Or, are you planning to take this issue to TGm for 802.11 standard
> > revision? (since based on your description, there is essentially no
> > use of the KeyRSC).
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > Cheng Hong
> >
> >=20
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:32 AM=20
> > > To: T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i=20
> > > Considerations
> > >
> > > Charles, Peter,
> > >
> > > Below is an expansion of a snippet from a thread on this
> > topic that I
> > > sent to the list on July 25, 2006.  I think this will be=20
> helpful to
> > > understand why the exchange that Saranavan is requesting is not
> > > necessary.  In fact, there are several systems from several
> > > manufacturers in the field using precursor protocols to=20
> CAPWAP that
> > > are Wi-Fi certified for WPA2/802.11i operation using the
> > protocol as
> > > it is described below.
> > >
> > > BTW, this whole discussion is about the KeyRSC for the=20
> > group key, not
> > > the pairwise key.  This is so because the WTP and AC both
> know the
> > > initial sequence counter value for the pairwise key, since it has
> > > never been used to send a frame.   802.11i requires the
> first frame
> > > sent on a key to use the sequence counter value of 1.  See
> > 8.3.2.6 c)
> > > and
> > > 8.3.3.4.3 c) in 802.11i for this requirement.
> > >
> > > The same is not true of the group key, i.e., after the WTP begins
> > > operation, the AC will not know the value of the sequence
> > counter for=20
> > > the group key when it needs to complete the EAPOL-key
> > handshake with a
> > > newly associated STA.
> > > However, as you will see from the tutorial below, it is not
> > necessary
> > > for the AC and WTP to exchange any information about the
> group key
> > > KeyRSC for the protocol to operate as it is intended.
> > >
> > > 1. A value for the KeyRSC in the EAPOL-key frame is necessary to=20
> > > calculate the KeyMIC.
> > >
> > > 2. This value does not need to bear any specific
> > relationship to the
> > > RSC value maintained by the WTP.  A value of zero in the=20
> EAPOL-key
> > > frame for the group key will always work.
> > >
> > > 3. The client STA will use the value of KeyRSC received in the
> > > EAPOL-key frame to validate frame using the KeyMIC.=20
> > >
> > > 4. The client STA will also set its group key RSC to the value
> > > received in KeyRSC, say, zero.
> > >
> > > 5. The value in the client STA's RSC will be compared against the=20
> > > sequence number in subsequent received frames to identify replay
> > > attacks.  Any frame received with a sequence counter value
> > within the
> > > replay window will be checked to have a valid MIC.  If the=20
> > MIC is not
> > > valid, the frame is dropped.
> > >
> > > 6. For any frame that is determined not to be a replay
> attack frame
> > > and meets all other validity and authenticity requirements,=20
> > the client
> > > STA updates its RSC value to the sequence number in the received
> > > frame, if the value is greater than its current RSC value.
> > Only the
> > > AP can meet these criteria as the source of a frame=20
> received by the
> > > STA.
> > >
> > > 7. Please see item 6, immediately above, for the reason
> that the AC
> > > and WTP do not need to coordinate and exchange the RSC.=20
> > >
> > >
> > > The only possible attack mode is for the attacker to send
> frames to
> > > the client STA between the time of the EAPOL-key frame and
> > the first=20
> > > frame encrypted with the group key.
> > > During this time, the client will receive the frame and
> proceed to
> > > validate its MIC.  This is a potential attack against the STA=20
> > > resources.  But, the MIC validation is done in the STA's
> > > 802.11 chip and consumes no more resources than receiving
> any other
> > > frame.  Thus, the attack does not actually consume any STA=20
> > resources
> > > beyond those of receiving a frame.
> > >
> > > This attack is not unique to the use of the value zero for
> > the KeyRSC,
> > > either.  The same attack is available to an attacker at any other=20
> > > time, as well.  It is no more nor less effective at either time.
> > >
> > > For these reasons, the protocol is not in need of any changes to
> > > address the issue raised by Saranavan.=20
> > >
> > >  -Bob
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu]
> > > Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:37 AM=20
> > > To: Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > > Considerations=20
> > >
> > > This is a very interesting solution.  The AC selects the
> KeyRSC and
> > > performs the 4-way handshake.  The WTP sniffs the 4-way handshake
> > > traffic and grabs the KeyRSC value and uses it to=20
> > initialize its own
> > > counter.
> > >
> > > Pat/Bob: Is this how the Cisco implementation works?  I
> > have to agree
> > > with Saravanan that I've yet to see a technical=20
> description of how
> > > Cisco implements it.
> > >
> > > IMHO, this is somewhat hackish, and it would be cleaner to
> > have the AC
> > > generate the KeyRSC and include it in the AddMobile message=20
> > as Behcet
> > > suggests.
> > >
> > > --
> > > t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |
> www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
> > >
> > > On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think Saravanan has a point. We did a prototype
> > impelementation of=20
> > > the
> > > > protocol a year ago when it was still called LWAPP. The way
> > > we solved
> > > > this issue then was to let the WTP sniff on all CAPWAP data
> > > messages=20
> > > > from the AC and when message 3 of the 4-way handshake or
> > > message 1 of
> > > > the groupkey handshake was sent the WTP inserted the correct RSC
> > > before=20
> > > > sending it off to the supplicant. To avoid the sniffing on
> > > all CAPWAP
> > > > data messages we would need a mechanism with in CAPWAP to
> > > handle these=20
> > > > two messages.
> > > >
> > > > Peter Nilsson
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Saravanan Govindan
> > > [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com]
> > > > Sent: den 22 september 2006 11:03
> > > > To: Margaret Wasserman
> > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > > Considerations
> > > >
> > > > Hi Margaret,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for reviewing the discussion on this issue.
> > > >
> > > > The issue here is the working of IEEE 802.11i when the 802.11i
> > > > authenticator element is at the AC and the 802.11i crypto
> > element is
> > > at
> > > > the WTP. Particularly, it is for the 4-way handshake between=20
> > > > authenticator and supplicant.
> > > >
> > > > Now, the 4-way handshake requires knowing the value of
> > > KeyRSC sequence
> > > > counter. The KeyRSC helps both authenticator and supplicant=20
> > > keep track
> > > > of their exchanges. It serves to protect against threats by
> > > tracking
> > > > sequential frames. The KeyRSC is maintained at the at the
> > point of
> > > > encryption, i.e. just before transmission over the
> > wireless channel.
> > > >
> > > > In the case of CAPWAP, the 4-way handshake is between the AC=20
> > > > (authenticator) and the wireless station (supplicant).
> > > >
> > > > The problem arises, when the authenticator is at the AC and
> > > the crypto
> > > > element (together with KeyRSC) is at the WTP. This is a=20
> > > fairly common
> > > > design. Now in this case, the AC starts the 4-way
> handshake but it
> > > does
> > > > not know the value of the KeyRSC. The KeyRSC is maintained=20
> > > by the WTP.
> > > >
> > > > Based on this, the current CAPWAP specification does not
> > allow for a
> > > way
> > > > to conduct the 4-way handshake with the correct KeyRSC.=20
> > > >
> > > > The functionality I would like to see is a way for the
> > authenticator
> > > > (AC) to use the correct prevailing value of KeyRSC
> > > (maintained by the=20
> > > > WTP) in its 4-way handshake.
> > > >
> > > > One way to introduce this functionality in to CAPWAP is
> > to have part
> > > of
> > > > the 4-way handshake be sent from AC to WTP. This will allow=20
> > > the 4-way
> > > > handshake to use the correct value of the KeyRSC before
> > > being sent to
> > > > the wireless station.
> > > >
> > > > I hope this helps clarify my view on the issue.=20
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Saravanan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >=20
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:26 PM=20
> > > > To: Saravanan Govindan
> > > > Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > > Considerations
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi again,
> > > >
> > > > Okay, I am even more confused than I thought I was...=20
> > > >
> > > > Saravanan, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Sep 17, 2006, at 10:24 PM, Saravanan Govindan wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Pat,=20
> > > >>
> > > >> The issue here is about how 802.11i exchanges are done when
> > > >> authenticator is at the AC and crypto elements are at
> > the WTP. This=20
> > > is
> > > >> the requirement.
> > > >
> > > > And, in response, Pat Calhoun wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Sep 18, 2006, at 4:15 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:=20
> > > >> The current specification allows the authenticator to
> > > reside in the
> > > >> AC, while the data packet crypto elements in the WTP. This
> > > feature is=20
> > > >> already in the specification.
> > > >
> > > > Pat's message matches my reading of the specification.
> > > >
> > > > So, Saravanan, what functionality are you asking for=20
> that is not
> > > > already supported by the specification?  And why do you
> > think it is
> > > > necessary?  it will not be helpful to my understanding to
> > > re-send your=20
> > > > proposal or to cite the requirements document...  Please
> > summarize
> > > > what functionality you think is missing from the current
> > > specification
> > > > and why you think that functionality is necessary to=20
> support IEEE
> > > > 802.11i or any important use case.
> > > >
> > > > At some point, the chairs may need to make a consensus
> > call on this
> > > > issue, and I'd like to understand your view and make sure=20
> > > that it has
> > > > been clearly communicated to the WG before we ask the WG to
> > > decide on
> > > > this issue.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,=20
> > > > Margaret
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> _________________________________________________________________=20
> > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options,
> please visit:
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<http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap>=20
> > > >
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> > > >
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> please visit:
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<http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap>=20
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> > > >
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> > >=20
> > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
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> > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:=20
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D570361705-02102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Hi=20
Bob,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D570361705-02102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D570361705-02102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Let's=20
get this straight again, hopefully, it is the last time. We have been =
deviated=20
from the real technical issue by your non-technical comments too many =
times.=20
And, by the way, they are not funny at all :)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D570361705-02102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D570361705-02102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>No one=20
is asking for assistance of protocol design from you or Cisco as a =
commercial=20
entity. The question was raised since you claim that your proposal is =
workable,=20
and should be adopted by the CAPWAP WG into the protocol design. =
Shouldn't any=20
member of this WG demand a bit more information to justify your =
assertion? I=20
think as a veteran of standardization, you should know this better than =
anyone=20
else ?!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D570361705-02102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D570361705-02102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>If you=20
plainly refuse to provide any information on that, please stop talking =
again=20
like "xxx products works fine like this, and there is no problem", since =
it is=20
simply not verifiable. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D570361705-02102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D570361705-02102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D570361705-02102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D570361705-02102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Cheng=20
Hong</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D570361705-02102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D570361705-02102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D570361705-02102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Bob O'Hara (boohara)=20
  [mailto:boohara@cisco.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, September 30, =
2006 12:10=20
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> Cheng Hong; Dorothy Stanley<BR><B>Cc:</B> Pat Calhoun =

  (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB); =
capwap@frascone.com;=20
  Saravanan Govindan<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - =
Explanation for=20
  802.11i Considerations<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D934515015-29092006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I am afraid that requesting design assistance =
from a=20
  competitor is very close to violation of U.S anti-trust laws.&nbsp; I =
will not=20
  describe how Cisco has designed any of its products and I cannot help =
you=20
  design yours.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D934515015-29092006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D934515015-29092006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Again, your proposal does not eliminate any =
attack=20
  mechanism and does not add any functionality to the protocol, only =
cost and=20
  complexity.&nbsp; A replayed frame will be discarded by the MAC, using =
the=20
  normal duplicate frame detection mechanisms.&nbsp; See section=20
  </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D934515015-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>8.3.3.3.2 of 802.11i (where the frame sequence number is part =
of the=20
  additional authenticated data) and section 9.2.9 of =
802.11-1999&nbsp;for the=20
  description of these functions.&nbsp; And PLEASE read 802.11 and =
802.11i=20
  before again asserting that this proposal is =
necessary.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D934515015-29092006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D934515015-29092006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>As I said several emails ago, the ONLY effect =
of using=20
  zero as the value for the KeyRSC is that the 802.11 chipset in the STA =

  (client) will have to receive the frame, attempt to decrypt it, and =
validate=20
  the MIC.&nbsp; This must be done for EVERY frame received, whether it =
is a=20
  replayed frame or not.&nbsp; This set of functions is performed in the =
802.11=20
  STA chipset and does not consume any additional resources of the =
STA.&nbsp;=20
  So, the attack, if it can even be characterized as an attack, is no =
more=20
  effective at DOSing the STA than sending it any other=20
  frame.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
  <P><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;-Bob<BR>&nbsp;</FONT> </P>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Cheng Hong=20
  [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, =
September 28,=20
  2006 5:34 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Bob O'Hara (boohara); Dorothy =
Stanley<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB);=20
  capwap@frascone.com; Saravanan Govindan<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: =
[Capwap] Issue=20
  43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Hi=20
  Bob,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>As=20
  Dorothy correctly pointed out below, setting the KeyRSC to a value =
closer to=20
  the current RSC would be better than setting it to a pre-defined value =
zero.=20
  </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>It=20
  is true that 802.11i and 802.1X do not specify what is the KeyRSC =
value to be=20
  used, since they are trying to provide us a tool to correctly =
synchronize the=20
  RSC using the Msg 3. By mandating the KeyRSC to zero, we are just =
disabling=20
  the tool. It is not wrong, but just deprives the system a designed=20
  function.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>As=20
  for the effectiveness of KeyRSC, setting it to a predefined value of 0 =
would=20
  pose a greater threat. In a simple example, if the RSC is currently =
1000, and=20
  we are mandating the KeyRSC to be always&nbsp;zero, the attacker =
basically can=20
  safely replay the last 1000 packets to the STA without being =
detected.&nbsp;If=20
  the KeyRSC can be set to a closer value of the current RSC, say, 900, =
the=20
  number of possible&nbsp;replayed packets can be reduced to 10 percent, =
100=20
  packets. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>Therefore, I would say, setting the KeyRSC value to zero does =
place a=20
  bigger threat. Is that how the cisco products implemented? Maybe you =
could=20
  share with us some other implementation/testing data to prove =
otherwise. Or,=20
  you have some other considerations that could defend the replay=20
  attack?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>Cheng Hong</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft>
    <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
    <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Bob O'Hara (boohara)=20
    [mailto:boohara@cisco.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 29, =
2006 5:21=20
    AM<BR><B>To:</B> Dorothy Stanley<BR><B>Cc:</B> Cheng Hong; Pat =
Calhoun=20
    (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB);=20
    capwap@frascone.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - =
Explanation=20
    for 802.11i Considerations<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D790061221-28092006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
    color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Dorothy,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D790061221-28092006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
    color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D790061221-28092006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
    color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The problem with this proposal is that it =
is no more=20
    effective than sending a value of zero for the KeyRSC.&nbsp;&nbsp;It =
doesn't=20
    eliminate any potential attacks.&nbsp; It doesn't add any=20
    functionality.&nbsp;&nbsp;However, it does&nbsp;add cost and =
complexity to=20
    the protocol.&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN></DIV><!-- Converted from =
text/plain format -->
    <P><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;-Bob<BR>&nbsp;</FONT> </P>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft>
    <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
    <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Dorothy Stanley=20
    [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September =
28,=20
    2006 1:17 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Bob O'Hara (boohara)<BR><B>Cc:</B> Cheng =
Hong;=20
    Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB); =

    capwap@frascone.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - =
Explanation=20
    for 802.11i Considerations<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
    <DIV></DIV>All,<BR><BR>Below is the text from 802.11REV-maD8.0 =
Clause 8.5.2,=20
    describing the Key RSC field.:<BR><BR><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: =
italic">"g)=20
    Key RSC. This field is 8 octets in length. It contains the receive =
sequence=20
    counter (RSC) for the</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">GTK being installed in IEEE 802.11. It =
is used in=20
    Message 3 of the 4-Way Handshake and</SPAN><BR=20
    style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: =
italic">Message 1 of the=20
    Group Key Handshake, where it is used to synchronize the IEEE 802.11 =

    replay</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">state. It may also be used in the =
Michael MIC=20
    Failure Report frame, to report the TSC field value of</SPAN><BR=20
    style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">the =
frame=20
    experiencing a MIC failure. It shall contain 0 in other messages. =
The Key=20
    RSC field gives</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">the current message number for the GTK, =
to allow=20
    a STA to identify replayed MPDUs. If the Key</SPAN><BR=20
    style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">RSC =
field value=20
    is less than 8 octets in length, the remaining octets shall be set =
to 0. The=20
    least significant</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">octet of the TSC or PN should be in the =
first=20
    octet of the Key RSC field."</SPAN><BR><BR>The intent of adding this =
value=20
    in message 3 was to immediately minimize the number of <BR>replayed =
frames=20
    that a STA would potentially process: "The Key RSC field =
gives<BR>the=20
    current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify =
replayed=20
    MPDUs."<BR>Setting the value to 0 in Msg 3 does not provide the =
current=20
    sequence counter (in most cases<BR>not even close) of the=20
    GTK..<BR><BR>Perhaps the WTP could periodically/frequently notify =
the AC of=20
    its current GTK sequence counter, and the<BR>AC would use the most =
recently=20
    received value in the message 3 sent to new STAs. The RSC =
value<BR>would not=20
    be&nbsp; up to date at all times, but would be closer than "0", not =
require=20
    an "in-the-critical-path<BR>message exchange between the AC and WTP, =
and=20
    still be close to the intended use of the =
field.<BR><BR>Dorothy<BR><BR>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 9/28/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Bob=20
    O'Hara (boohara)</B> &lt;<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:boohara@cisco.com">boohara@cisco.com</A>&gt; =
wrote:</SPAN>=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Please=20
      understand that 802.11i specifies no behavior in this area =
for<BR>the=20
      802.1X authenticator.&nbsp;&nbsp;Our choice to send a group key =
KeyRSC=20
      value<BR>of zero in the EAPOL-key frame requires no change to =
802.11i or=20
      to<BR>802.1X .&nbsp;&nbsp;It requires us to state this in the =
CAPWAP spec,=20
      if we want<BR>this behavior to be consistent across all=20
      implementations.<BR><BR>The problem with what Bechet and Saranavan =
are=20
      asking is that either of<BR>three different things are required: =
<BR>1:=20
      the WTP must communicate the group key TSC to the AC every time it =

      is<BR>updated, or<BR>2: the AC must request the current value of =
the group=20
      key TSC for the<BR>KeyRSC before constructing the EAPOL-key frame, =

      or<BR>3: the AC must send the KCK to the AC so&nbsp;&nbsp;that it =
can=20
      insert the KeyRSC<BR>value and also calculate the correct MIC, =
inserting=20
      that into the proper<BR>EAPOL-key frame.<BR><BR>The first item =
requires a=20
      tremendous amount of additional CAPWAP <BR>communication between =
WTP and=20
      AC, at least one new CAPWAP packet for<BR>every multicast frame =
sent by=20
      the WTP, if the packet is not<BR>acknowledged, or two new CAPWAP =
packets,=20
      if it is acknowledged.&nbsp;&nbsp;This is<BR>a very expensive =
addition to=20
      the protocol. <BR><BR>The second item requires new protocol =
between the AC=20
      and WTP during what<BR>can be a time critical portion of the =
802.11=20
      transition (handoff, roam)<BR>from one WTP to =
another.&nbsp;&nbsp;It also=20
      introduces a race condition that is <BR>not present in the =
protocol=20
      today.&nbsp;&nbsp;Once the value for the KeyRSC is<BR>sent from =
the WTP to=20
      the AC, it is possible that the WTP can send<BR>another multicast =
frame=20
      encrypted with the group key.&nbsp;&nbsp;This puts the<BR>value of =
the=20
      sequence counter out of sync with the value that will be =
<BR>shortly=20
      communicated to the client in the EAPOL-key frame from the =
AC.<BR>This=20
      will behave exactly the same as if a value of zero is sent in=20
      the<BR>EAPOL-key frame.<BR><BR>The third item requires a new =
architecture=20
      split that is not required in <BR>our objectives.&nbsp;&nbsp;The =
new split=20
      is not splitting the MAC, but splitting<BR>the=20
      authenticator.&nbsp;&nbsp;Placing the KCK in the WTP is also a=20
      potential<BR>reduction in the security of the overall WLAN system, =
since=20
      these<BR>devices are normally not in a secured wiring closet, but =
exposed=20
      and <BR>more easily compromised than the AC.<BR><BR>The simplest =
to=20
      implement, least expensive, and most secure option is to<BR>use =
the=20
      protocol as it is now specified and have the AC send a value =
of<BR>zero in=20
      the KeyRSC field of the EAPOL-key frame. =
<BR><BR>-Bob<BR><BR>-----Original=20
      Message-----<BR>From: Cheng Hong [mailto:<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com">Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com</=
A>]<BR>Sent:=20
      Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:50 PM<BR>To: Pat Calhoun =
(pacalhou); Bob=20
      O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; <BR>Peter Nilsson J =
(LI/EAB)<BR>Cc:=20
      <A =
href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com">capwap@frascone.com</A><BR>Subject:=20
      RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i =
Considerations<BR><BR>Hi=20
      Pat and all,<BR><BR>So, based on this, I would say that we have =
consensus=20
      that setting the <BR>correct KeyRSC is an issue for the CAPWAP =
protocol=20
      design.<BR><BR>So far, we have three option/solutions:<BR><BR>1) =
As=20
      proposed by Bob: Using a static value (0) for the =
KeyRSC.<BR><BR>2) As=20
      suggested by Behcet: AC communicate a correct KeyRSC to WTP =
<BR><BR>3) As=20
      suggested by Saravanana: Some exchange mechanism between WTP=20
      and<BR>AC<BR><BR>Among the three, the first option seems the =
easiest.=20
      However, it<BR>requires a mandated Authenticator behavior(in this =
case AC)=20
      that is not <BR>mandated by 802.11. Therefore, we have to specify =
that=20
      (e.g. as proposed<BR>by Bob: "We could include a note to the =
effect that=20
      the group KeyRSC<BR>should be zero in the EAPOL-key frame.") =
either in=20
      CAPWAP or 802.11,<BR>because otherwise there is no =
interoperability. For=20
      example, AC provided<BR>by another vendor does not have to set =
KeyRSC to 0=20
      to be compliant with<BR>CAPWAP and 802.11i.<BR><BR>Another =
implication is=20
      that we don't really understand the impact of <BR>mandating a =
static=20
      KeyRSC value. Although Bob provided an excellent<BR>analysis, I =
still have=20
      some doubts about the profoundness of the impact.<BR>If the KeyRSC =
value=20
      is as described of no use, why would it appear in<BR>the EAPOL =
frames in=20
      the first place? By mandating it to static value,<BR>what have we =
lost?=20
      Maybe some liaison letter to 802.1 or 802.11 could<BR>provide us a =
better=20
      understanding of the issue.<BR><BR>For the last two options, I =
think they=20
      are both within CAPWAP's scope. <BR>Further analysis could help us =
to=20
      decide which one&nbsp;&nbsp;is better (or<BR>someone could propose =
other=20
      solutions).<BR><BR>cheers<BR><BR>Cheng=20
      Hong<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original=20
      Message-----<BR>&gt; From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto: <A=20
      href=3D"mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com">pcalhoun@cisco.com</A>]<BR>&gt; =
Sent:=20
      Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:39 AM<BR>&gt; To: Cheng Hong; Bob =
O'Hara=20
      (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;<BR>&gt; Peter Nilsson J =
(LI/EAB)<BR>&gt; Cc:=20
      <A =
href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com">capwap@frascone.com</A><BR>&gt;=20
      Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i<BR>&gt;=20
      Considerations<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Bob's point is 802.11i works this =
way=20
      today. The AP (or in <BR>&gt; this case AC) can set the RSC to =
whatever=20
      value it wishes.<BR>&gt; Bob used zero (0) as an example. =
Implementations=20
      could use<BR>&gt; any other value, which would require some form=20
      of<BR>&gt; communication to the WTP, as suggested by Behcet.=20
      <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Pat Calhoun<BR>&gt; CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
      Unit<BR>&gt; Cisco Systems<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; &gt; From: Cheng Hong =
[mailto:<A=20
      href=3D"mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com">=20
      Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com</A>]<BR>&gt; &gt; Sent: Tuesday, =
September 26,=20
      2006 6:03 PM<BR>&gt; &gt; To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles =
Clancy;=20
      Peter Nilsson<BR>&gt; J (LI/EAB)<BR>&gt; &gt; Cc: <A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com">capwap@frascone.com</A><BR>&gt; &gt; =

      Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
      Considerations<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Hi Bob,<BR>&gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      If I understand your description below correct, you are proposing =
a=20
      <BR>&gt; &gt; solution (to the problem pointed out by<BR>&gt; &gt; =

      Saravanan) by mandating the behavior of the AC to always set =
the<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; KeyRSC in the 4-way handshake to zero.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt; This=20
      is not a defined behavior according to the current <BR>&gt; &gt; =
802.11=20
      standard.<BR>&gt; &gt; Are you suggesting that we CAPWAP WG should =

      specifically<BR>&gt; mandate that<BR>&gt; &gt; in our CAPWAP =
protocol=20
      spec, e.g. something like "a CAPWAP<BR>&gt; compatible<BR>&gt; =
&gt; AC=20
      MUST set KeyRSC to zero"? Otherwise, the problem still =
exists,<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; since not all AC implementation have to follow what you=20
      described.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Or, are you planning to take =
this=20
      issue to TGm for 802.11 standard<BR>&gt; &gt; revision? (since =
based on=20
      your description, there is essentially no<BR>&gt; &gt; use of the=20
      KeyRSC).<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; cheers<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt; Cheng=20
      Hong<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: Bob O'Hara =

      (boohara) [mailto:<A=20
      href=3D"mailto:boohara@cisco.com">boohara@cisco.com</A>]<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:32 AM <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: =
T.=20
      Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: <A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com">capwap@frascone.com</A><BR>&gt; &gt; =

      &gt; Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i =
<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; Considerations<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Charles,=20
      Peter,<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Below is an expansion =
of a=20
      snippet from a thread on this<BR>&gt; &gt; topic that I<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      sent to the list on July 25, 2006.&nbsp;&nbsp;I think this will be =

      <BR>&gt; helpful to<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; understand why the exchange =
that=20
      Saranavan is requesting is not<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
necessary.&nbsp;&nbsp;In=20
      fact, there are several systems from several<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;=20
      manufacturers in the field using precursor protocols to <BR>&gt; =
CAPWAP=20
      that<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; are Wi-Fi certified for WPA2/802.11i =
operation=20
      using the<BR>&gt; &gt; protocol as<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; it is =
described=20
      below.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; BTW, this whole =
discussion is=20
      about the KeyRSC for the <BR>&gt; &gt; group key, not<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      the pairwise key.&nbsp;&nbsp;This is so because the WTP and AC=20
      both<BR>&gt; know the<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; initial sequence counter =
value for=20
      the pairwise key, since it has<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; never been used =
to send a=20
      frame.&nbsp;&nbsp; 802.11i requires the<BR>&gt; first =
frame<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; sent on a key to use the sequence counter value of=20
      1.&nbsp;&nbsp;See<BR>&gt; &gt; <A =
href=3D"http://8.3.2.6">8.3.2.6</A>=20
      c)<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; and<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; 8.3.3.4.3 c) in 802.11i =
for=20
      this requirement.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; The same is =
not true=20
      of the group key, i.e., after the WTP begins<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
operation,=20
      the AC will not know the value of the sequence<BR>&gt; &gt; =
counter for=20
      <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; the group key when it needs to complete the=20
      EAPOL-key<BR>&gt; &gt; handshake with a<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; newly =
associated=20
      STA.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; However, as you will see from the tutorial =
below,=20
      it is not<BR>&gt; &gt; necessary<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; for the AC and =
WTP to=20
      exchange any information about the<BR>&gt; group key<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      KeyRSC for the protocol to operate as it is intended.<BR>&gt; &gt; =

      &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; 1. A value for the KeyRSC in the EAPOL-key =
frame is=20
      necessary to <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; calculate the KeyMIC.<BR>&gt; &gt; =

      &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; 2. This value does not need to bear any=20
      specific<BR>&gt; &gt; relationship to the<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; RSC =
value=20
      maintained by the WTP.&nbsp;&nbsp;A value of zero in the <BR>&gt;=20
      EAPOL-key<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; frame for the group key will always=20
      work.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; 3. The client STA will =
use the=20
      value of KeyRSC received in the<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; EAPOL-key frame =
to=20
      validate frame using the KeyMIC. <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt; 4.=20
      The client STA will also set its group key RSC to the =
value<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; received in KeyRSC, say, zero.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt; 5.=20
      The value in the client STA's RSC will be compared against the =
<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; sequence number in subsequent received frames to =
identify=20
      replay<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; attacks.&nbsp;&nbsp;Any frame received =
with a=20
      sequence counter value<BR>&gt; &gt; within the<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
replay=20
      window will be checked to have a valid MIC.&nbsp;&nbsp;If the =
<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; MIC is not<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; valid, the frame is =
dropped.<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; 6. For any frame that is determined =
not to be=20
      a replay<BR>&gt; attack frame<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; and meets all =
other=20
      validity and authenticity requirements, <BR>&gt; &gt; the =
client<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; STA updates its RSC value to the sequence number in the=20
      received<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; frame, if the value is greater than its =
current=20
      RSC value.<BR>&gt; &gt; Only the<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; AP can meet =
these=20
      criteria as the source of a frame <BR>&gt; received by the<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt; STA.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; 7. Please see item =
6,=20
      immediately above, for the reason<BR>&gt; that the AC<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      and WTP do not need to coordinate and exchange the RSC. <BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; The only possible attack =
mode is=20
      for the attacker to send<BR>&gt; frames to<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; the =
client=20
      STA between the time of the EAPOL-key frame and<BR>&gt; &gt; the =
first=20
      <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; frame encrypted with the group key.<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      During this time, the client will receive the frame and<BR>&gt; =
proceed=20
      to<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; validate its MIC.&nbsp;&nbsp;This is a =
potential=20
      attack against the STA <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
resources.&nbsp;&nbsp;But, the=20
      MIC validation is done in the STA's<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; 802.11 chip =
and=20
      consumes no more resources than receiving<BR>&gt; any =
other<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; frame.&nbsp;&nbsp;Thus, the attack does not actually consume =
any STA=20
      <BR>&gt; &gt; resources<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; beyond those of =
receiving a=20
      frame.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; This attack is not =
unique to=20
      the use of the value zero for<BR>&gt; &gt; the KeyRSC,<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      either.&nbsp;&nbsp;The same attack is available to an attacker at =
any=20
      other <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; time, as well.&nbsp;&nbsp;It is no more =
nor less=20
      effective at either time.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; For =
these=20
      reasons, the protocol is not in need of any changes to<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      address the issue raised by Saranavan. <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;-Bob<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original =
Message-----<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto:<A=20
      href=3D"mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu">clancy@cs.umd.edu</A>]<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:37 AM <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: =
Peter=20
      Nilsson J (LI/EAB)<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: <A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com">capwap@frascone.com</A><BR>&gt; &gt; =

      &gt; Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for =
802.11i<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; Considerations <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; This is a =
very=20
      interesting solution.&nbsp;&nbsp;The AC selects the<BR>&gt; KeyRSC =

      and<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; performs the 4-way handshake.&nbsp;&nbsp;The =
WTP=20
      sniffs the 4-way handshake<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; traffic and grabs the =
KeyRSC=20
      value and uses it to <BR>&gt; &gt; initialize its own<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      counter.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pat/Bob: Is this how =
the=20
      Cisco implementation works?&nbsp;&nbsp;I<BR>&gt; &gt; have to=20
      agree<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; with Saravanan that I've yet to see a =
technical=20
      <BR>&gt; description of how<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cisco implements =
it.<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; IMHO, this is somewhat hackish, and it =
would=20
      be cleaner to<BR>&gt; &gt; have the AC<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; generate =
the=20
      KeyRSC and include it in the AddMobile message <BR>&gt; &gt; as=20
      Behcet<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; suggests.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      --<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; t. charles clancy, =
ph.d.&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;<A=20
      href=3D"mailto:tcc@umd.edu">tcc@umd.edu</A>&nbsp;&nbsp;|<BR>&gt; =
<A=20
      =
href=3D"http://www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy">www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy</A><BR>&gt;=
=20
      &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Peter Nilsson J =
(LI/EAB)=20
      wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I think Saravanan =
has a=20
      point. We did a prototype<BR>&gt; &gt; impelementation of <BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt; the<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; protocol a year ago when it was =
still=20
      called LWAPP. The way<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; we solved<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      this issue then was to let the WTP sniff on all CAPWAP =
data<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; messages <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; from the AC and when message =
3 of=20
      the 4-way handshake or<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; message 1 of<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt; the groupkey handshake was sent the WTP inserted the correct=20
      RSC<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; before <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; sending it =
off to the=20
      supplicant. To avoid the sniffing on<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; all =
CAPWAP<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; &gt; data messages we would need a mechanism with in =
CAPWAP=20
      to<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; handle these <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; two=20
      messages.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Peter=20
      Nilsson<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; =
-----Original=20
      Message-----<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From: Saravanan =
Govindan<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; [mailto:<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com">Saravanan.Govindan@sg=
.panasonic.com</A>]<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: den 22 september 2006 11:03<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      To: Margaret Wasserman<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: <A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com">capwap@frascone.com</A><BR>&gt; &gt; =

      &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for =
802.11i<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; Considerations<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt; Hi=20
      Margaret,<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Thank you =
for=20
      reviewing the discussion on this issue.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; &gt; The issue here is the working of IEEE 802.11i when =
the=20
      802.11i<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; authenticator element is at the AC =
and the=20
      802.11i crypto<BR>&gt; &gt; element is<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
at<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; the WTP. Particularly, it is for the 4-way handshake =
between=20
      <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; authenticator and supplicant.<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Now, the 4-way handshake requires =
knowing the=20
      value of<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; KeyRSC sequence<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; =
counter.=20
      The KeyRSC helps both authenticator and supplicant <BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt; keep=20
      track<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; of their exchanges. It serves to =
protect=20
      against threats by<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; tracking<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      sequential frames. The KeyRSC is maintained at the at the<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
      point of<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; encryption, i.e. just before =
transmission=20
      over the<BR>&gt; &gt; wireless channel.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; &gt; In the case of CAPWAP, the 4-way handshake is =
between the=20
      AC <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (authenticator) and the wireless =
station=20
      (supplicant).<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The =
problem=20
      arises, when the authenticator is at the AC and<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
the=20
      crypto<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; element (together with KeyRSC) is at =
the=20
      WTP. This is a <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; fairly common<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      design. Now in this case, the AC starts the 4-way<BR>&gt; =
handshake but=20
      it<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; does<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; not know the =
value of the=20
      KeyRSC. The KeyRSC is maintained <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; by the =
WTP.<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Based on this, the current =
CAPWAP=20
      specification does not<BR>&gt; &gt; allow for a<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;=20
      way<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to conduct the 4-way handshake with the =
correct=20
      KeyRSC. <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The =
functionality I=20
      would like to see is a way for the<BR>&gt; &gt; =
authenticator<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; (AC) to use the correct prevailing value of =
KeyRSC<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; (maintained by the <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; WTP) in its 4-way=20
      handshake.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; One way =
to=20
      introduce this functionality in to CAPWAP is<BR>&gt; &gt; to have=20
      part<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; of<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the 4-way =
handshake be=20
      sent from AC to WTP. This will allow <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; the =
4-way<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; &gt; handshake to use the correct value of the KeyRSC=20
      before<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; being sent to<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the =
wireless=20
      station.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I hope this =
helps=20
      clarify my view on the issue. <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt; Cheers,<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=20
      Saravanan<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com">margaret@thingmagic.com</A>]<BR>&=
gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:26 PM <BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; To: Saravanan Govindan<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: Pat =
Calhoun=20
      (pacalhou); <A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com">capwap@frascone.com</A><BR>&gt; &gt; =

      &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for =
802.11i<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; Considerations<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;=20
      &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Hi =
again,<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Okay, I am even more confused =
than I=20
      thought I was... <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; =
Saravanan,=20
      you wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Sep =
17, 2006,=20
      at 10:24 PM, Saravanan Govindan wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; &gt;&gt; Pat, <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;&gt;=20
      The issue here is about how 802.11i exchanges are done =
when<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; &gt;&gt; authenticator is at the AC and crypto elements are=20
      at<BR>&gt; &gt; the WTP. This <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; is<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt;&gt; the requirement.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      And, in response, Pat Calhoun wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; On Sep 18, 2006, at 4:15 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) =
wrote:=20
      <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; The current specification allows the=20
      authenticator to<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; reside in the<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =

      &gt;&gt; AC, while the data packet crypto elements in the WTP.=20
      This<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; feature is <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; =
already in=20
      the specification.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; =
Pat's=20
      message matches my reading of the specification.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =

      &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So, Saravanan, what functionality are =
you=20
      asking for <BR>&gt; that is not<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; already =
supported=20
      by the specification?&nbsp;&nbsp;And why do you<BR>&gt; &gt; think =
it=20
      is<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; necessary?&nbsp;&nbsp;it will not be =
helpful to=20
      my understanding to<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; re-send your <BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      proposal or to cite the requirements =
document...&nbsp;&nbsp;Please<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; summarize<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; what functionality you think =
is=20
      missing from the current<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; specification<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; and why you think that functionality is necessary to <BR>&gt; =
support=20
      IEEE<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 802.11i or any important use =
case.<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; At some point, the chairs =
may need=20
      to make a consensus<BR>&gt; &gt; call on this<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      issue, and I'd like to understand your view and make sure <BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt; that it has<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; been clearly communicated =
to the=20
      WG before we ask the WG to<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; decide on<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; this issue.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; =
Thanks,=20
      <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Margaret<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;=20
      _________________________________________________________________ =
<BR>&gt;=20
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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From: "Saravanan Govindan" <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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Hi Mike,

=20

Regarding Section 11.3, I think the GTK update procedure has to reflect
the KeyRSC step. I will send text shortly for the WG's consideration.


Cheers,

=20

Saravanan

=20

=20

=20

=20

________________________________

From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 7:41 AM
To: Bob O'Hara (boohara)
Cc: capwap@frascone.com; Cheng Hong
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations

=20

Bob and all interested parties,

=20

In the last round of edits, I updated Section 11.3 to describe the GTK
update procedure. I thought that it lines up pretty well with what's in
IEEE 802.11i (and implementations of IEEE 802.11i that I am aware of).

=20

Could someone make recommendations on how you think this section should
be updated?

=20

Thanks,

=20

Mike

=20

On 9/28/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) <boohara@cisco.com> wrote:=20

Dorothy,

=20

The problem with this proposal is that it is no more effective than
sending a value of zero for the KeyRSC.  It doesn't eliminate any
potential attacks.  It doesn't add any functionality.  However, it does
add cost and complexity to the protocol. =20

 -Bob
 =20

=20

=20

________________________________

From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:17 PM
To: Bob O'Hara (boohara)
Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson
J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com=20


Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations




=20

All,

Below is the text from 802.11REV-maD8.0 Clause 8.5.2, describing the Key
RSC field.:

"g) Key RSC. This field is 8 octets in length. It contains the receive
sequence counter (RSC) for the=20
GTK being installed in IEEE 802.11. It is used in Message 3 of the 4-Way
Handshake and
Message 1 of the Group Key Handshake, where it is used to synchronize
the IEEE 802.11 replay
state. It may also be used in the Michael MIC Failure Report frame, to
report the TSC field value of=20
the frame experiencing a MIC failure. It shall contain 0 in other
messages. The Key RSC field gives
the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify
replayed MPDUs. If the Key
RSC field value is less than 8 octets in length, the remaining octets
shall be set to 0. The least significant=20
octet of the TSC or PN should be in the first octet of the Key RSC
field."

The intent of adding this value in message 3 was to immediately minimize
the number of=20
replayed frames that a STA would potentially process: "The Key RSC field
gives
the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify
replayed MPDUs."
Setting the value to 0 in Msg 3 does not provide the current sequence
counter (in most cases=20
not even close) of the GTK..

Perhaps the WTP could periodically/frequently notify the AC of its
current GTK sequence counter, and the
AC would use the most recently received value in the message 3 sent to
new STAs. The RSC value=20
would not be  up to date at all times, but would be closer than "0", not
require an "in-the-critical-path
message exchange between the AC and WTP, and still be close to the
intended use of the field.=20

Dorothy

On 9/28/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) <boohara@cisco.com > wrote:=20

Please understand that 802.11i specifies no behavior in this area for
the 802.1X authenticator.  Our choice to send a group key KeyRSC value=20
of zero in the EAPOL-key frame requires no change to 802.11i or to
802.1X .  It requires us to state this in the CAPWAP spec, if we want
this behavior to be consistent across all implementations.

The problem with what Bechet and Saranavan are asking is that either of=20
three different things are required:=20
1: the WTP must communicate the group key TSC to the AC every time it is
updated, or
2: the AC must request the current value of the group key TSC for the
KeyRSC before constructing the EAPOL-key frame, or=20
3: the AC must send the KCK to the AC so  that it can insert the KeyRSC
value and also calculate the correct MIC, inserting that into the proper
EAPOL-key frame.

The first item requires a tremendous amount of additional CAPWAP=20
communication between WTP and AC, at least one new CAPWAP packet for
every multicast frame sent by the WTP, if the packet is not
acknowledged, or two new CAPWAP packets, if it is acknowledged.  This is
a very expensive addition to the protocol.=20

The second item requires new protocol between the AC and WTP during what
can be a time critical portion of the 802.11 transition (handoff, roam)
from one WTP to another.  It also introduces a race condition that is=20
not present in the protocol today.  Once the value for the KeyRSC is
sent from the WTP to the AC, it is possible that the WTP can send
another multicast frame encrypted with the group key.  This puts the
value of the sequence counter out of sync with the value that will be=20
shortly communicated to the client in the EAPOL-key frame from the AC.
This will behave exactly the same as if a value of zero is sent in the
EAPOL-key frame.

The third item requires a new architecture split that is not required in

our objectives.  The new split is not splitting the MAC, but splitting
the authenticator.  Placing the KCK in the WTP is also a potential
reduction in the security of the overall WLAN system, since these
devices are normally not in a secured wiring closet, but exposed and=20
more easily compromised than the AC.

The simplest to implement, least expensive, and most secure option is to
use the protocol as it is now specified and have the AC send a value of
zero in the KeyRSC field of the EAPOL-key frame.=20

-Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com ]
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:50 PM
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;=20
Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
Cc: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations

Hi Pat and all,

So, based on this, I would say that we have consensus that setting the=20
correct KeyRSC is an issue for the CAPWAP protocol design.=20

So far, we have three option/solutions:

1) As proposed by Bob: Using a static value (0) for the KeyRSC.

2) As suggested by Behcet: AC communicate a correct KeyRSC to WTP=20

3) As suggested by Saravanana: Some exchange mechanism between WTP and=20
AC

Among the three, the first option seems the easiest. However, it
requires a mandated Authenticator behavior(in this case AC) that is not=20
mandated by 802.11. Therefore, we have to specify that (e.g. as proposed

by Bob: "We could include a note to the effect that the group KeyRSC
should be zero in the EAPOL-key frame.") either in CAPWAP or 802.11,
because otherwise there is no interoperability. For example, AC provided

by another vendor does not have to set KeyRSC to 0 to be compliant with
CAPWAP and 802.11i.

Another implication is that we don't really understand the impact of=20
mandating a static KeyRSC value. Although Bob provided an excellent=20
analysis, I still have some doubts about the profoundness of the impact.
If the KeyRSC value is as described of no use, why would it appear in
the EAPOL frames in the first place? By mandating it to static value,=20
what have we lost? Maybe some liaison letter to 802.1 or 802.11 could
provide us a better understanding of the issue.

For the last two options, I think they are both within CAPWAP's scope.=20
Further analysis could help us to decide which one  is better (or=20
someone could propose other solutions).

cheers

Cheng Hong







> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto: pcalhoun@cisco.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:39 AM
> To: Cheng Hong; Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;
> Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> Considerations
>
> Bob's point is 802.11i works this way today. The AP (or in=20
> this case AC) can set the RSC to whatever value it wishes.=20
> Bob used zero (0) as an example. Implementations could use
> any other value, which would require some form of
> communication to the WTP, as suggested by Behcet.=20
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit=20
> Cisco Systems
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cheng Hong [mailto: Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com
<mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com> ]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:03 PM
> > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson
> J (LI/EAB)
> > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > Considerations
> >
> > Hi Bob,
> >
> > If I understand your description below correct, you are proposing a=20
> > solution (to the problem pointed out by
> > Saravanan) by mandating the behavior of the AC to always set the
> > KeyRSC in the 4-way handshake to zero.
> >
> > This is not a defined behavior according to the current=20
> > 802.11 standard.
> > Are you suggesting that we CAPWAP WG should specifically
> mandate that
> > in our CAPWAP protocol spec, e.g. something like "a CAPWAP
> compatible
> > AC MUST set KeyRSC to zero"? Otherwise, the problem still exists,
> > since not all AC implementation have to follow what you described.
> >
> > Or, are you planning to take this issue to TGm for 802.11 standard
> > revision? (since based on your description, there is essentially no
> > use of the KeyRSC).
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > Cheng Hong
> >
> >=20
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto: boohara@cisco.com
<mailto:boohara@cisco.com> ]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:32 AM=20
> > > To: T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i=20
> > > Considerations
> > >
> > > Charles, Peter,
> > >
> > > Below is an expansion of a snippet from a thread on this=20
> > topic that I
> > > sent to the list on July 25, 2006.  I think this will be=20
> helpful to
> > > understand why the exchange that Saranavan is requesting is not
> > > necessary.  In fact, there are several systems from several=20
> > > manufacturers in the field using precursor protocols to=20
> CAPWAP that
> > > are Wi-Fi certified for WPA2/802.11i operation using the
> > protocol as
> > > it is described below.=20
> > >
> > > BTW, this whole discussion is about the KeyRSC for the=20
> > group key, not
> > > the pairwise key.  This is so because the WTP and AC both
> know the
> > > initial sequence counter value for the pairwise key, since it has=20
> > > never been used to send a frame.   802.11i requires the
> first frame
> > > sent on a key to use the sequence counter value of 1.  See
> > 8.3.2.6 <http://8.3.2.6/>  c)
> > > and
> > > 8.3.3.4.3 c) in 802.11i for this requirement.
> > >
> > > The same is not true of the group key, i.e., after the WTP begins
> > > operation, the AC will not know the value of the sequence=20
> > counter for=20
> > > the group key when it needs to complete the EAPOL-key
> > handshake with a
> > > newly associated STA.
> > > However, as you will see from the tutorial below, it is not=20
> > necessary
> > > for the AC and WTP to exchange any information about the
> group key
> > > KeyRSC for the protocol to operate as it is intended.
> > >
> > > 1. A value for the KeyRSC in the EAPOL-key frame is necessary to=20
> > > calculate the KeyMIC.
> > >
> > > 2. This value does not need to bear any specific
> > relationship to the
> > > RSC value maintained by the WTP.  A value of zero in the=20
> EAPOL-key
> > > frame for the group key will always work.
> > >
> > > 3. The client STA will use the value of KeyRSC received in the
> > > EAPOL-key frame to validate frame using the KeyMIC.=20
> > >
> > > 4. The client STA will also set its group key RSC to the value
> > > received in KeyRSC, say, zero.
> > >
> > > 5. The value in the client STA's RSC will be compared against the=20
> > > sequence number in subsequent received frames to identify replay
> > > attacks.  Any frame received with a sequence counter value
> > within the
> > > replay window will be checked to have a valid MIC.  If the=20
> > MIC is not
> > > valid, the frame is dropped.
> > >
> > > 6. For any frame that is determined not to be a replay
> attack frame
> > > and meets all other validity and authenticity requirements,=20
> > the client
> > > STA updates its RSC value to the sequence number in the received
> > > frame, if the value is greater than its current RSC value.
> > Only the
> > > AP can meet these criteria as the source of a frame=20
> received by the
> > > STA.
> > >
> > > 7. Please see item 6, immediately above, for the reason
> that the AC
> > > and WTP do not need to coordinate and exchange the RSC.=20
> > >
> > >
> > > The only possible attack mode is for the attacker to send
> frames to
> > > the client STA between the time of the EAPOL-key frame and
> > the first=20
> > > frame encrypted with the group key.
> > > During this time, the client will receive the frame and
> proceed to
> > > validate its MIC.  This is a potential attack against the STA=20
> > > resources.  But, the MIC validation is done in the STA's
> > > 802.11 chip and consumes no more resources than receiving
> any other
> > > frame.  Thus, the attack does not actually consume any STA=20
> > resources
> > > beyond those of receiving a frame.
> > >
> > > This attack is not unique to the use of the value zero for
> > the KeyRSC,
> > > either.  The same attack is available to an attacker at any other=20
> > > time, as well.  It is no more nor less effective at either time.
> > >
> > > For these reasons, the protocol is not in need of any changes to
> > > address the issue raised by Saranavan.=20
> > >
> > >  -Bob
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto: clancy@cs.umd.edu
<mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu> ]
> > > Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:37 AM=20
> > > To: Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > > Considerations=20
> > >
> > > This is a very interesting solution.  The AC selects the=20
> KeyRSC and
> > > performs the 4-way handshake.  The WTP sniffs the 4-way handshake
> > > traffic and grabs the KeyRSC value and uses it to=20
> > initialize its own
> > > counter.=20
> > >
> > > Pat/Bob: Is this how the Cisco implementation works?  I
> > have to agree
> > > with Saravanan that I've yet to see a technical=20
> description of how
> > > Cisco implements it.=20
> > >
> > > IMHO, this is somewhat hackish, and it would be cleaner to
> > have the AC
> > > generate the KeyRSC and include it in the AddMobile message=20
> > as Behcet=20
> > > suggests.
> > >
> > > --
> > > t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu   |
> www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
> > >
> > > On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) wrote:=20
> > >
> > > > I think Saravanan has a point. We did a prototype
> > impelementation of=20
> > > the
> > > > protocol a year ago when it was still called LWAPP. The way=20
> > > we solved
> > > > this issue then was to let the WTP sniff on all CAPWAP data
> > > messages=20
> > > > from the AC and when message 3 of the 4-way handshake or
> > > message 1 of
> > > > the groupkey handshake was sent the WTP inserted the correct RSC
> > > before=20
> > > > sending it off to the supplicant. To avoid the sniffing on=20
> > > all CAPWAP
> > > > data messages we would need a mechanism with in CAPWAP to
> > > handle these=20
> > > > two messages.
> > > >
> > > > Peter Nilsson=20
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Saravanan Govindan
> > > [mailto: Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com
<mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com> ]
> > > > Sent: den 22 september 2006 11:03
> > > > To: Margaret Wasserman
> > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > > Considerations
> > > >
> > > > Hi Margaret,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for reviewing the discussion on this issue.
> > > >
> > > > The issue here is the working of IEEE 802.11i when the 802.11i
> > > > authenticator element is at the AC and the 802.11i crypto
> > element is
> > > at
> > > > the WTP. Particularly, it is for the 4-way handshake between=20
> > > > authenticator and supplicant.
> > > >
> > > > Now, the 4-way handshake requires knowing the value of
> > > KeyRSC sequence
> > > > counter. The KeyRSC helps both authenticator and supplicant=20
> > > keep track=20
> > > > of their exchanges. It serves to protect against threats by
> > > tracking
> > > > sequential frames. The KeyRSC is maintained at the at the
> > point of
> > > > encryption, i.e. just before transmission over the
> > wireless channel.
> > > >
> > > > In the case of CAPWAP, the 4-way handshake is between the AC=20
> > > > (authenticator) and the wireless station (supplicant).=20
> > > >
> > > > The problem arises, when the authenticator is at the AC and
> > > the crypto
> > > > element (together with KeyRSC) is at the WTP. This is a=20
> > > fairly common=20
> > > > design. Now in this case, the AC starts the 4-way
> handshake but it
> > > does
> > > > not know the value of the KeyRSC. The KeyRSC is maintained=20
> > > by the WTP.=20
> > > >
> > > > Based on this, the current CAPWAP specification does not
> > allow for a
> > > way
> > > > to conduct the 4-way handshake with the correct KeyRSC.=20
> > > >
> > > > The functionality I would like to see is a way for the
> > authenticator
> > > > (AC) to use the correct prevailing value of KeyRSC
> > > (maintained by the=20
> > > > WTP) in its 4-way handshake.
> > > >
> > > > One way to introduce this functionality in to CAPWAP is
> > to have part
> > > of
> > > > the 4-way handshake be sent from AC to WTP. This will allow=20
> > > the 4-way
> > > > handshake to use the correct value of the KeyRSC before
> > > being sent to
> > > > the wireless station.
> > > >
> > > > I hope this helps clarify my view on the issue.=20
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Saravanan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >=20
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto: margaret@thingmagic.com
<mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com> ]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:26 PM=20
> > > > To: Saravanan Govindan
> > > > Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > > Considerations
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi again,=20
> > > >
> > > > Okay, I am even more confused than I thought I was...=20
> > > >
> > > > Saravanan, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Sep 17, 2006, at 10:24 PM, Saravanan Govindan wrote:=20
> > > >
> > > >> Pat,=20
> > > >>
> > > >> The issue here is about how 802.11i exchanges are done when
> > > >> authenticator is at the AC and crypto elements are at=20
> > the WTP. This=20
> > > is
> > > >> the requirement.
> > > >
> > > > And, in response, Pat Calhoun wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Sep 18, 2006, at 4:15 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:=20
> > > >> The current specification allows the authenticator to
> > > reside in the
> > > >> AC, while the data packet crypto elements in the WTP. This
> > > feature is=20
> > > >> already in the specification.
> > > >
> > > > Pat's message matches my reading of the specification.
> > > >
> > > > So, Saravanan, what functionality are you asking for=20
> that is not
> > > > already supported by the specification?  And why do you
> > think it is
> > > > necessary?  it will not be helpful to my understanding to
> > > re-send your=20
> > > > proposal or to cite the requirements document...  Please
> > summarize
> > > > what functionality you think is missing from the current
> > > specification
> > > > and why you think that functionality is necessary to=20
> support IEEE
> > > > 802.11i or any important use case.
> > > >
> > > > At some point, the chairs may need to make a consensus
> > call on this
> > > > issue, and I'd like to understand your view and make sure=20
> > > that it has
> > > > been clearly communicated to the WG before we ask the WG to
> > > decide on
> > > > this issue.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,=20
> > > > Margaret
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> _________________________________________________________________=20
> > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options,
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> > > >
> _________________________________________________________________=20
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> > > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________=20
> > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
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> > >=20
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Hi Mike,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Regarding Section 11.3, I think the GTK update =
procedure has
to reflect the KeyRSC step. I will send text shortly for the WG&#8217;s
consideration.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><br>
Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Saravanan<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Michael
Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, September =
29, 2006
7:41 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Bob O'Hara =
(boohara)<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">capwap@frascone.com</st1:PersonName>;
Cheng Hong<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Capwap] =
Issue 43 -
Explanation for 802.11i Considerations</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Bob and all interested parties,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>In the last round of edits, I updated Section 11.3 to describe =
the GTK
update procedure. I thought that it lines up pretty well with what's in =
IEEE
802.11i (and implementations of IEEE 802.11i that I am aware =
of).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Could someone make recommendations on how you think this section =
should
be updated?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Mike<br>
<br>
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dgmailquote><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On 9/28/06, <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Bob
O'Hara (boohara)</span></b> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:boohara@cisco.com">boohara@cisco.com</a>&gt;
wrote:</span></font></span> <o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Dorothy,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>The problem with this proposal is =
that it
is no more effective than sending a value of zero for the =
KeyRSC.&nbsp;&nbsp;It
doesn't eliminate any potential attacks.&nbsp; It doesn't add any
functionality.&nbsp;&nbsp;However, it does&nbsp;add cost and complexity =
to the
protocol.&nbsp; </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;-Bob<br>
&nbsp;</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Dorothy Stanley
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">dstanley1389@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, September =
28, 2006
1:17 PM<br>
<span class=3Dq><b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Bob =
O'Hara
(boohara)</span><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> Cheng Hong; Pat =
Calhoun
(pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB); <a
href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com" =
target=3D"_blank">capwap@frascone.com</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div><span id=3D"q_10df64daf3dbef0f_3">

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<span class=3De><b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> =
Re:
[Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations</span><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</span>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div><span id=3D"q_10df64daf3dbef0f_5">

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
class=3De><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>All,</span></font></span><br>
<br>
<span class=3De>Below is the text from 802.11REV-maD8.0 Clause 8.5.2, =
describing
the Key RSC field.:</span><br>
<br>
<span class=3De><i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&quot;g) Key RSC. =
This field
is 8 octets in length. It contains the receive sequence counter (RSC) =
for the </span></i></span><i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'><br>
<span class=3De>GTK being installed in IEEE 802.11. It is used in =
Message 3 of
the 4-Way Handshake and</span><br>
<span class=3De>Message 1 of the Group Key Handshake, where it is used =
to
synchronize the IEEE 802.11 replay</span><br>
<span class=3De>state. It may also be used in the Michael MIC Failure =
Report
frame, to report the TSC field value of </span><br>
<span class=3De>the frame experiencing a MIC failure. It shall contain 0 =
in other
messages. The Key RSC field gives</span><br>
<span class=3De>the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA =
to
identify replayed MPDUs. If the Key</span><br>
<span class=3De>RSC field value is less than 8 octets in length, the =
remaining
octets shall be set to 0. The least significant </span><br>
<span class=3De>octet of the TSC or PN should be in the first octet of =
the Key
RSC field.&quot;</span></span></i><br>
<br>
<span class=3De>The intent of adding this value in message 3 was to =
immediately
minimize the number of </span><br>
<span class=3De>replayed frames that a STA would potentially process: =
&quot;The
Key RSC field gives</span><br>
<span class=3De>the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA =
to
identify replayed MPDUs.&quot;</span><br>
<span class=3De>Setting the value to 0 in Msg 3 does not provide the =
current
sequence counter (in most cases </span><br>
<span class=3De>not even close) of the GTK..</span><br>
<br>
<span class=3De>Perhaps the WTP could periodically/frequently notify the =
AC of
its current GTK sequence counter, and the</span><br>
<span class=3De>AC would use the most recently received value in the =
message 3
sent to new STAs. The RSC value </span><br>
<span class=3De>would not be&nbsp; up to date at all times, but would be =
closer
than &quot;0&quot;, not require an &quot;in-the-critical-path</span><br>
<span class=3De>message exchange between the AC and WTP, and still be =
close to
the intended use of the field. </span><br>
<br>
<span class=3De>Dorothy<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dgmailquote><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On 9/28/06, <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Bob
O'Hara (boohara)</span></b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:boohara@cisco.com"
target=3D"_blank">boohara@cisco.com </a>&gt; wrote:</span></font></span> =
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Please understand that 802.11i specifies no behavior in this =
area for<br>
the 802.1X authenticator.&nbsp;&nbsp;Our choice to send a group key =
KeyRSC
value <br>
of zero in the EAPOL-key frame requires no change to 802.11i or to<br>
802.1X .&nbsp;&nbsp;It requires us to state this in the CAPWAP spec, if =
we want<br>
this behavior to be consistent across all implementations.<br>
<br>
The problem with what Bechet and Saranavan are asking is that either of =
<br>
three different things are required: <br>
1: the WTP must communicate the group key TSC to the AC every time it =
is<br>
updated, or<br>
2: the AC must request the current value of the group key TSC for =
the<br>
KeyRSC before constructing the EAPOL-key frame, or <br>
3: the AC must send the KCK to the AC so&nbsp;&nbsp;that it can insert =
the
KeyRSC<br>
value and also calculate the correct MIC, inserting that into the =
proper<br>
EAPOL-key frame.<br>
<br>
The first item requires a tremendous amount of additional CAPWAP <br>
communication between WTP and AC, at least one new CAPWAP packet for<br>
every multicast frame sent by the WTP, if the packet is not<br>
acknowledged, or two new CAPWAP packets, if it is =
acknowledged.&nbsp;&nbsp;This
is<br>
a very expensive addition to the protocol. <br>
<br>
The second item requires new protocol between the AC and WTP during =
what<br>
can be a time critical portion of the 802.11 transition (handoff, =
roam)<br>
from one WTP to another.&nbsp;&nbsp;It also introduces a race condition =
that is
<br>
not present in the protocol today.&nbsp;&nbsp;Once the value for the =
KeyRSC is<br>
sent from the WTP to the AC, it is possible that the WTP can send<br>
another multicast frame encrypted with the group key.&nbsp;&nbsp;This =
puts the<br>
value of the sequence counter out of sync with the value that will be =
<br>
shortly communicated to the client in the EAPOL-key frame from the =
AC.<br>
This will behave exactly the same as if a value of zero is sent in =
the<br>
EAPOL-key frame.<br>
<br>
The third item requires a new architecture split that is not required in =
<br>
our objectives.&nbsp;&nbsp;The new split is not splitting the MAC, but
splitting<br>
the authenticator.&nbsp;&nbsp;Placing the KCK in the WTP is also a =
potential<br>
reduction in the security of the overall WLAN system, since these<br>
devices are normally not in a secured wiring closet, but exposed and =
<br>
more easily compromised than the AC.<br>
<br>
The simplest to implement, least expensive, and most secure option is =
to<br>
use the protocol as it is now specified and have the AC send a value =
of<br>
zero in the KeyRSC field of the EAPOL-key frame. <br>
<br>
-Bob<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Cheng Hong [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com"
target=3D"_blank">Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com</a> ]<br>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:50 PM<br>
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; =
<br>
Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)<br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com" =
target=3D"_blank">capwap@frascone.com</a><br>
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i =
Considerations<br>
<br>
Hi Pat and all,<br>
<br>
So, based on this, I would say that we have consensus that setting the =
<br>
correct KeyRSC is an issue for the CAPWAP protocol design. <br>
<br>
So far, we have three option/solutions:<br>
<br>
1) As proposed by Bob: Using a static value (0) for the KeyRSC.<br>
<br>
2) As suggested by Behcet: AC communicate a correct KeyRSC to WTP <br>
<br>
3) As suggested by Saravanana: Some exchange mechanism between WTP and =
<br>
AC<br>
<br>
Among the three, the first option seems the easiest. However, it<br>
requires a mandated Authenticator behavior(in this case AC) that is not =
<br>
mandated by 802.11. Therefore, we have to specify that (e.g. as proposed =
<br>
by Bob: &quot;We could include a note to the effect that the group =
KeyRSC<br>
should be zero in the EAPOL-key frame.&quot;) either in CAPWAP or =
802.11,<br>
because otherwise there is no interoperability. For example, AC provided =
<br>
by another vendor does not have to set KeyRSC to 0 to be compliant =
with<br>
CAPWAP and 802.11i.<br>
<br>
Another implication is that we don't really understand the impact of =
<br>
mandating a static KeyRSC value. Although Bob provided an excellent <br>
analysis, I still have some doubts about the profoundness of the =
impact.<br>
If the KeyRSC value is as described of no use, why would it appear =
in<br>
the EAPOL frames in the first place? By mandating it to static value, =
<br>
what have we lost? Maybe some liaison letter to 802.1 or 802.11 =
could<br>
provide us a better understanding of the issue.<br>
<br>
For the last two options, I think they are both within CAPWAP's scope. =
<br>
Further analysis could help us to decide which one&nbsp;&nbsp;is better =
(or <br>
someone could propose other solutions).<br>
<br>
cheers<br>
<br>
Cheng Hong<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto: <a =
href=3D"mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com"
target=3D"_blank">pcalhoun@cisco.com</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:39 AM<br>
&gt; To: Cheng Hong; Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;<br>
&gt; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com" =
target=3D"_blank">capwap@frascone.com</a><br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i<br>
&gt; Considerations<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Bob's point is 802.11i works this way today. The AP (or in <br>
&gt; this case AC) can set the RSC to whatever value it wishes. <br>
&gt; Bob used zero (0) as an example. Implementations could use<br>
&gt; any other value, which would require some form of<br>
&gt; communication to the WTP, as suggested by Behcet. <br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Pat Calhoun<br>
&gt; CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit <br>
&gt; Cisco Systems<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Cheng Hong [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com"
target=3D"_blank"> Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:03 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson<br>
&gt; J (LI/EAB)<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com" =
target=3D"_blank">capwap@frascone.com</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i<br>
&gt; &gt; Considerations<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi Bob,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; If I understand your description below correct, you are =
proposing a <br>
&gt; &gt; solution (to the problem pointed out by<br>
&gt; &gt; Saravanan) by mandating the behavior of the AC to always set =
the<br>
&gt; &gt; KeyRSC in the 4-way handshake to zero.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; This is not a defined behavior according to the current <br>
&gt; &gt; 802.11 standard.<br>
&gt; &gt; Are you suggesting that we CAPWAP WG should specifically<br>
&gt; mandate that<br>
&gt; &gt; in our CAPWAP protocol spec, e.g. something like &quot;a =
CAPWAP<br>
&gt; compatible<br>
&gt; &gt; AC MUST set KeyRSC to zero&quot;? Otherwise, the problem still
exists,<br>
&gt; &gt; since not all AC implementation have to follow what you =
described.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Or, are you planning to take this issue to TGm for 802.11 =
standard<br>
&gt; &gt; revision? (since based on your description, there is =
essentially no<br>
&gt; &gt; use of the KeyRSC).<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; cheers<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cheng Hong<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:boohara@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank"> =
boohara@cisco.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:32 AM <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; To: T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com" =
target=3D"_blank">capwap@frascone.com</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i =
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Considerations<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Charles, Peter,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Below is an expansion of a snippet from a thread on this =
<br>
&gt; &gt; topic that I<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; sent to the list on July 25, 2006.&nbsp;&nbsp;I think =
this will
be <br>
&gt; helpful to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; understand why the exchange that Saranavan is requesting =
is not<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; necessary.&nbsp;&nbsp;In fact, there are several systems =
from
several <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; manufacturers in the field using precursor protocols to =
<br>
&gt; CAPWAP that<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; are Wi-Fi certified for WPA2/802.11i operation using =
the<br>
&gt; &gt; protocol as<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; it is described below. <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; BTW, this whole discussion is about the KeyRSC for the =
<br>
&gt; &gt; group key, not<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; the pairwise key.&nbsp;&nbsp;This is so because the WTP =
and AC
both<br>
&gt; know the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; initial sequence counter value for the pairwise key, =
since it
has <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; never been used to send a frame.&nbsp;&nbsp; 802.11i =
requires
the<br>
&gt; first frame<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; sent on a key to use the sequence counter value of
1.&nbsp;&nbsp;See<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://8.3.2.6/" target=3D"_blank">8.3.2.6</a> =
c)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; and<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 8.3.3.4.3 c) in 802.11i for this requirement.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; The same is not true of the group key, i.e., after the =
WTP
begins<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; operation, the AC will not know the value of the sequence =
<br>
&gt; &gt; counter for <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; the group key when it needs to complete the EAPOL-key<br>
&gt; &gt; handshake with a<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; newly associated STA.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; However, as you will see from the tutorial below, it is =
not <br>
&gt; &gt; necessary<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; for the AC and WTP to exchange any information about =
the<br>
&gt; group key<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; KeyRSC for the protocol to operate as it is intended.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 1. A value for the KeyRSC in the EAPOL-key frame is =
necessary to
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; calculate the KeyMIC.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 2. This value does not need to bear any specific<br>
&gt; &gt; relationship to the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; RSC value maintained by the WTP.&nbsp;&nbsp;A value of =
zero in
the <br>
&gt; EAPOL-key<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; frame for the group key will always work.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 3. The client STA will use the value of KeyRSC received =
in the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; EAPOL-key frame to validate frame using the KeyMIC. <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 4. The client STA will also set its group key RSC to the =
value<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; received in KeyRSC, say, zero.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 5. The value in the client STA's RSC will be compared =
against
the <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; sequence number in subsequent received frames to identify =
replay<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; attacks.&nbsp;&nbsp;Any frame received with a sequence =
counter
value<br>
&gt; &gt; within the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; replay window will be checked to have a valid =
MIC.&nbsp;&nbsp;If
the <br>
&gt; &gt; MIC is not<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; valid, the frame is dropped.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 6. For any frame that is determined not to be a =
replay<br>
&gt; attack frame<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; and meets all other validity and authenticity =
requirements, <br>
&gt; &gt; the client<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; STA updates its RSC value to the sequence number in the =
received<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; frame, if the value is greater than its current RSC =
value.<br>
&gt; &gt; Only the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; AP can meet these criteria as the source of a frame <br>
&gt; received by the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; STA.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 7. Please see item 6, immediately above, for the =
reason<br>
&gt; that the AC<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; and WTP do not need to coordinate and exchange the RSC. =
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; The only possible attack mode is for the attacker to =
send<br>
&gt; frames to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; the client STA between the time of the EAPOL-key frame =
and<br>
&gt; &gt; the first <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; frame encrypted with the group key.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; During this time, the client will receive the frame =
and<br>
&gt; proceed to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; validate its MIC.&nbsp;&nbsp;This is a potential attack =
against
the STA <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; resources.&nbsp;&nbsp;But, the MIC validation is done in =
the
STA's<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 802.11 chip and consumes no more resources than =
receiving<br>
&gt; any other<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; frame.&nbsp;&nbsp;Thus, the attack does not actually =
consume any
STA <br>
&gt; &gt; resources<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; beyond those of receiving a frame.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; This attack is not unique to the use of the value zero =
for<br>
&gt; &gt; the KeyRSC,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; either.&nbsp;&nbsp;The same attack is available to an =
attacker
at any other <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; time, as well.&nbsp;&nbsp;It is no more nor less =
effective at
either time.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; For these reasons, the protocol is not in need of any =
changes to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; address the issue raised by Saranavan. <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;-Bob<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu" target=3D"_blank"> =
clancy@cs.umd.edu</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:37 AM <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; To: Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com" =
target=3D"_blank">capwap@frascone.com</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for =
802.11i<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Considerations <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; This is a very interesting solution.&nbsp;&nbsp;The AC =
selects
the <br>
&gt; KeyRSC and<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; performs the 4-way handshake.&nbsp;&nbsp;The WTP sniffs =
the
4-way handshake<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; traffic and grabs the KeyRSC value and uses it to <br>
&gt; &gt; initialize its own<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; counter. <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Pat/Bob: Is this how the Cisco implementation
works?&nbsp;&nbsp;I<br>
&gt; &gt; have to agree<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; with Saravanan that I've yet to see a technical <br>
&gt; description of how<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Cisco implements it. <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; IMHO, this is somewhat hackish, and it would be cleaner =
to<br>
&gt; &gt; have the AC<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; generate the KeyRSC and include it in the AddMobile =
message <br>
&gt; &gt; as Behcet <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; suggests.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; --<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; t. charles clancy, ph.d.&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;<a
href=3D"mailto:tcc@umd.edu" target=3D"_blank">tcc@umd.edu =
</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy" =
target=3D"_blank">www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) wrote: <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I think Saravanan has a point. We did a =
prototype<br>
&gt; &gt; impelementation of <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; protocol a year ago when it was still called LWAPP. =
The way
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; we solved<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; this issue then was to let the WTP sniff on all =
CAPWAP data<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; messages <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; from the AC and when message 3 of the 4-way =
handshake or<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; message 1 of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the groupkey handshake was sent the WTP inserted the
correct RSC<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; before <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; sending it off to the supplicant. To avoid the =
sniffing on <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; all CAPWAP<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; data messages we would need a mechanism with in =
CAPWAP to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; handle these <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; two messages.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Peter Nilsson <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From: <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Saravanan =
Govindan</st1:PersonName><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com"
target=3D"_blank"> Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: den 22 september 2006 11:03<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; To: Margaret Wasserman<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com" =
target=3D"_blank">capwap@frascone.com</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for =
802.11i<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Considerations<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Hi Margaret,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Thank you for reviewing the discussion on this =
issue.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The issue here is the working of IEEE 802.11i when =
the
802.11i<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; authenticator element is at the AC and the 802.11i =
crypto<br>
&gt; &gt; element is<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; at<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the WTP. Particularly, it is for the 4-way handshake
between <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; authenticator and supplicant.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Now, the 4-way handshake requires knowing the value =
of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; KeyRSC sequence<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; counter. The KeyRSC helps both authenticator and =
supplicant
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; keep track <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; of their exchanges. It serves to protect against =
threats by<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; tracking<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; sequential frames. The KeyRSC is maintained at the =
at the<br>
&gt; &gt; point of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; encryption, i.e. just before transmission over =
the<br>
&gt; &gt; wireless channel.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; In the case of CAPWAP, the 4-way handshake is =
between the
AC <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (authenticator) and the wireless station =
(supplicant). <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The problem arises, when the authenticator is at the =
AC and<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; the crypto<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; element (together with KeyRSC) is at the WTP. This =
is a <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; fairly common <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; design. Now in this case, the AC starts the =
4-way<br>
&gt; handshake but it<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; does<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; not know the value of the KeyRSC. The KeyRSC is =
maintained <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; by the WTP. <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Based on this, the current CAPWAP specification does =
not<br>
&gt; &gt; allow for a<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; way<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to conduct the 4-way handshake with the correct =
KeyRSC. <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The functionality I would like to see is a way for =
the<br>
&gt; &gt; authenticator<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (AC) to use the correct prevailing value of =
KeyRSC<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; (maintained by the <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; WTP) in its 4-way handshake.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; One way to introduce this functionality in to CAPWAP =
is<br>
&gt; &gt; to have part<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the 4-way handshake be sent from AC to WTP. This =
will allow
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; the 4-way<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; handshake to use the correct value of the KeyRSC =
before<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; being sent to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the wireless station.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I hope this helps clarify my view on the issue. <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Saravanan<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com" target=3D"_blank"> =
margaret@thingmagic.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:26 PM <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; To: <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Saravanan =
Govindan</st1:PersonName><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); <a
href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com" =
target=3D"_blank">capwap@frascone.com</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for =
802.11i<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Considerations<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Hi again, <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Okay, I am even more confused than I thought I =
was... <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Saravanan, you wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Sep 17, 2006, at 10:24 PM, <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">Saravanan
 Govindan</st1:PersonName> wrote: <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Pat, <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; The issue here is about how 802.11i exchanges =
are done
when<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; authenticator is at the AC and crypto elements =
are at <br>
&gt; &gt; the WTP. This <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; is<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; the requirement.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; And, in response, Pat Calhoun wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Sep 18, 2006, at 4:15 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) =
wrote: <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; The current specification allows the =
authenticator to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; reside in the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; AC, while the data packet crypto elements in the =
WTP.
This<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; feature is <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; already in the specification.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Pat's message matches my reading of the =
specification.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So, Saravanan, what functionality are you asking for =
<br>
&gt; that is not<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; already supported by the =
specification?&nbsp;&nbsp;And why
do you<br>
&gt; &gt; think it is<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; necessary?&nbsp;&nbsp;it will not be helpful to my
understanding to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; re-send your <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; proposal or to cite the requirements
document...&nbsp;&nbsp;Please<br>
&gt; &gt; summarize<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; what functionality you think is missing from the =
current<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; specification<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; and why you think that functionality is necessary to =
<br>
&gt; support IEEE<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 802.11i or any important use case.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; At some point, the chairs may need to make a =
consensus<br>
&gt; &gt; call on this<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; issue, and I'd like to understand your view and make =
sure <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; that it has<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; been clearly communicated to the WG before we ask =
the WG to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; decide on<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; this issue.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks, <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Margaret<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; _________________________________________________________________ =
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; To unsubscribe or modify your subscription =
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&gt; please visit:<br>
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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Charles, 

Please see my comments below.

 -Bob
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] 
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 4:11 PM
To: Margaret Wasserman
Cc: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations

I've reread the thread and reread the relevent portions of 11i.  I think
my statements before were partially inaccurate.  The security and
overhead
ramifications are not insignificant.

We can:

1. Set the KeyRSC to a static value.  This increases the risk of replay
attacks of multicast/broadcast packets encrypted with the group key
between the time the client authenticates and when the first legitimate
group key-encrypted packet is transmitted.

Bob>> I don't believe that this increases the risk of replay attack.
The risk of attack is related to the presence of an attacker and the
time between the 4-way handshake and the next multicast frame
transmitted by the AP.  As long as the possibility exists that the
KeyRSC does not match the actual TSC, this attack is feasible.

Bob>> It should be noted that "replay" of encrypted/MICed multicast
frames is inherent in the design of an 802.11 WLAN that has more than
one AP in it.  Because the load and availability of transmit
opportunities varies with time, location, and channel, it is likely that
the STA will encounter a situation where it has received one or more
multicast frames from one AP that it will receive again from a second AP
that it has just roamed to.  The multicast frames at the second AP have
been delayed due to that AP having fewer opportunities to transmit,
resulting in longer queuing delays for the first transmission of those
multicast frames. 

2. Periodically transmit the KeyRSC from the WTP to the AC.  This would
allow for fewer packets to be replayed, but would not completely prevent
replay attacks.  Probabalistically, it would weaken their effectiveness.

The added price is more protocol overhead.

3. Have the WTP request the GTK prior to initiating the 4-way handshake.

This would eliminate replay attacks, but add one round trip to the
authentication process.  This could possibly be optimized by having the
WTP detect EAPOL message 1 being sent to the STA, and immediately
transmit
it to the AC before it needs it for EAPOL message 3.

Bob>> The WTP already has the GTK, if it has any STAs associated.  There
is no need for it to request it from the AC.  I am not sure what this
would accomplish.

Transporting the KCK to the WTP breaks the security model, and should
not
be considered a viable option.

Bob>> Agreed.

None of the approaches affect the STA operation, or require any changes
to
802.11.

Bob>> Agreed.

Here's a question: what happens if the newly authenticated STA tries to
transmit a GTK-encrypted packet using RSC=0?  Would it get dropped?  Is
this a problem, particularly for protocols such as DHCP?

Bob>> The STA cannot transmit on the GTK, this is not allowed by 802.11.
Any frame sent to a multicast destination in 802.11 by an associated STA
must be sent directly to the AP, encrypted on the PTK, where it is then
decrypted and forwarded (both to the wire and to the BSS encrypted on
the GTK) as a multicast frame.  Only the frame from the AP will be
encrypted on the GTK.  All STAs are required to drop any frames
addressed to them that are not sent from the AP, when associated to an
AP.  This is done prior to checking MIC or decrypting the frame.

-- 
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  <>  tcc@umd.edu  <>  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy

On Sat, September 30, 2006 12:00 pm, Margaret Wasserman wrote:
>
>
> Could one of you explain to me what the implications would be of the
> AC always using an RSC value of 0 to compute the MIC in message 3 of
> the 4-way handshake?
>
> Would this reduce/eliminate the value of the RSC as a security
> mechanism?  Does it imply something about how the WTP needs to
> behave?  Something about how the supplicant needs to behave?
>
> Thanks,
> Margaret
>
>
> On Sep 29, 2006, at 4:43 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
>
>> To be fair, one option requires that message 3 be created, and
>> encrypted, in the WTP. This implies that encryption and
authentication
>> keys required to formulate message 3 be sent to the WTP.
>>
>> Seems to me simpler to include text that either states the value of
>> zero
>> is always used (simplest), or some configurable value be sent to
>> the WTP
>> (simpler).
>>
>> Pat Calhoun
>> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
>> Cisco Systems
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu]
>>> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:07 PM
>>> To: Cheng Hong
>>> Cc: Bob O'Hara (boohara); Dorothy Stanley; Pat Calhoun
>>> (pacalhou); Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com;
>>> Saravanan Govindan
>>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
>>> Considerations
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> I'm glad to see we're finally arguing about the right issue.
>>> As discussed, the Cisco solution to the problem is "set it to zero".
>>> Certainly sniffing the value works as well.  From a security
>>> standpoint either is just fine.
>>>
>>> We do have an interoperability issue, however, if a Cisco WTP
>>> were used with an AC that's randomly generating a KeyRSC and
>>> expecting the WTP to sniff it.  So, I think some text is
>>> necessary to address the issue.
>>>
>>> What remains are two entrenched opinions about protocol
>>> flexibility vs simplicity, neither of which would
>>> significantly tilt the flexibility vs simplicity balance in
>>> either of direction.  Let's flip a coin and move on to more
>>> important issues.
>>>
>>> --
>>> t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
>>>
>>> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Cheng Hong wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>
>>>> As Dorothy correctly pointed out below, setting the KeyRSC
>>> to a value
>>>> closer to the current RSC would be better than setting it to a
>>>> pre-defined value zero.
>>>>
>>>> It is true that 802.11i and 802.1X do not specify what is the
KeyRSC
>>>> value to be used, since they are trying to provide us a tool to
>>>> correctly synchronize the RSC using the Msg 3. By mandating
>>> the KeyRSC
>>>> to zero, we are just disabling the tool. It is not wrong, but just
>>>> deprives the system a designed function.
>>>>
>>>> As for the effectiveness of KeyRSC, setting it to a
>>> predefined value of
>>>> 0 would pose a greater threat. In a simple example, if the RSC is
>>>> currently 1000, and we are mandating the KeyRSC to be
>>> always zero, the
>>>> attacker basically can safely replay the last 1000 packets
>>> to the STA
>>>> without being detected. If the KeyRSC can be set to a
>>> closer value of
>>>> the current RSC, say, 900, the number of possible replayed
>>> packets can
>>>> be reduced to 10 percent, 100 packets.
>>>>
>>>> Therefore, I would say, setting the KeyRSC value to zero
>>> does place a
>>>> bigger threat. Is that how the cisco products implemented? Maybe
you
>>>> could share with us some other implementation/testing data to prove
>>>> otherwise. Or, you have some other considerations that
>>> could defend the
>>>> replay attack?
>>>>
>>>> cheers
>>>>
>>>> Cheng Hong
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  _____
>>>>
>>>> From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com]
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:21 AM
>>>> To: Dorothy Stanley
>>>> Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy;
>>> Peter Nilsson
>>>> J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com
>>>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
>>> Considerations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dorothy,
>>>>
>>>> The problem with this proposal is that it is no more effective than
>>>> sending a value of zero for the KeyRSC.  It doesn't eliminate any
>>>> potential attacks.  It doesn't add any functionality.
>>> However, it does
>>>> add cost and complexity to the protocol.
>>>>
>>>> -Bob
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  _____
>>>>
>>>> From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:17 PM
>>>> To: Bob O'Hara (boohara)
>>>> Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy;
>>> Peter Nilsson
>>>> J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
>>> Considerations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All,
>>>>
>>>> Below is the text from 802.11REV-maD8.0 Clause 8.5.2,
>>> describing the Key
>>>> RSC field.:
>>>>
>>>> "g) Key RSC. This field is 8 octets in length. It contains
>>> the receive
>>>> sequence counter (RSC) for the
>>>> GTK being installed in IEEE 802.11. It is used in Message 3
>>> of the 4-Way
>>>> Handshake and
>>>> Message 1 of the Group Key Handshake, where it is used to
>>> synchronize
>>>> the IEEE 802.11 replay
>>>> state. It may also be used in the Michael MIC Failure
>>> Report frame, to
>>>> report the TSC field value of
>>>> the frame experiencing a MIC failure. It shall contain 0 in other
>>>> messages. The Key RSC field gives
>>>> the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify
>>>> replayed MPDUs. If the Key
>>>> RSC field value is less than 8 octets in length, the
>>> remaining octets
>>>> shall be set to 0. The least significant
>>>> octet of the TSC or PN should be in the first octet of the Key RSC
>>>> field."
>>>>
>>>> The intent of adding this value in message 3 was to
>>> immediately minimize
>>>> the number of
>>>> replayed frames that a STA would potentially process: "The
>>> Key RSC field
>>>> gives
>>>> the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify
>>>> replayed MPDUs."
>>>> Setting the value to 0 in Msg 3 does not provide the
>>> current sequence
>>>> counter (in most cases
>>>> not even close) of the GTK..
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps the WTP could periodically/frequently notify the AC of its
>>>> current GTK sequence counter, and the
>>>> AC would use the most recently received value in the
>>> message 3 sent to
>>>> new STAs. The RSC value
>>>> would not be  up to date at all times, but would be closer
>>> than "0", not
>>>> require an "in-the-critical-path
>>>> message exchange between the AC and WTP, and still be close to the
>>>> intended use of the field.
>>>>
>>>> Dorothy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9/28/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) <boohara@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Please understand that 802.11i specifies no behavior in
>>> this area for
>>>> the 802.1X authenticator.  Our choice to send a group key
>>> KeyRSC value
>>>> of zero in the EAPOL-key frame requires no change to 802.11i or to
>>>> 802.1X .  It requires us to state this in the CAPWAP spec,
>>> if we want
>>>> this behavior to be consistent across all implementations.
>>>>
>>>> The problem with what Bechet and Saranavan are asking is
>>> that either of
>>>> three different things are required:
>>>> 1: the WTP must communicate the group key TSC to the AC
>>> every time it is
>>>> updated, or
>>>> 2: the AC must request the current value of the group key
>>> TSC for the
>>>> KeyRSC before constructing the EAPOL-key frame, or
>>>> 3: the AC must send the KCK to the AC so  that it can
>>> insert the KeyRSC
>>>> value and also calculate the correct MIC, inserting that
>>> into the proper
>>>> EAPOL-key frame.
>>>>
>>>> The first item requires a tremendous amount of additional CAPWAP
>>>> communication between WTP and AC, at least one new CAPWAP packet
for
>>>> every multicast frame sent by the WTP, if the packet is not
>>>> acknowledged, or two new CAPWAP packets, if it is
>>> acknowledged.  This is
>>>> a very expensive addition to the protocol.
>>>>
>>>> The second item requires new protocol between the AC and
>>> WTP during what
>>>> can be a time critical portion of the 802.11 transition
>>> (handoff, roam)
>>>> from one WTP to another.  It also introduces a race
>>> condition that is
>>>> not present in the protocol today.  Once the value for the KeyRSC
is
>>>> sent from the WTP to the AC, it is possible that the WTP can send
>>>> another multicast frame encrypted with the group key.  This puts
the
>>>> value of the sequence counter out of sync with the value
>>> that will be
>>>> shortly communicated to the client in the EAPOL-key frame
>>> from the AC.
>>>> This will behave exactly the same as if a value of zero is
>>> sent in the
>>>> EAPOL-key frame.
>>>>
>>>> The third item requires a new architecture split that is
>>> not required in
>>>>
>>>> our objectives.  The new split is not splitting the MAC,
>>> but splitting
>>>> the authenticator.  Placing the KCK in the WTP is also a potential
>>>> reduction in the security of the overall WLAN system, since these
>>>> devices are normally not in a secured wiring closet, but exposed
and
>>>> more easily compromised than the AC.
>>>>
>>>> The simplest to implement, least expensive, and most secure
>>> option is to
>>>> use the protocol as it is now specified and have the AC
>>> send a value of
>>>> zero in the KeyRSC field of the EAPOL-key frame.
>>>>
>>>> -Bob
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:50 PM
>>>> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles
Clancy;
>>>> Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
>>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
>>>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
>>> Considerations
>>>>
>>>> Hi Pat and all,
>>>>
>>>> So, based on this, I would say that we have consensus that
>>> setting the
>>>> correct KeyRSC is an issue for the CAPWAP protocol design.
>>>>
>>>> So far, we have three option/solutions:
>>>>
>>>> 1) As proposed by Bob: Using a static value (0) for the KeyRSC.
>>>>
>>>> 2) As suggested by Behcet: AC communicate a correct KeyRSC to WTP
>>>>
>>>> 3) As suggested by Saravanana: Some exchange mechanism
>>> between WTP and
>>>> AC
>>>>
>>>> Among the three, the first option seems the easiest. However, it
>>>> requires a mandated Authenticator behavior(in this case AC)
>>> that is not
>>>> mandated by 802.11. Therefore, we have to specify that
>>> (e.g. as proposed
>>>> by Bob: "We could include a note to the effect that the group
KeyRSC
>>>> should be zero in the EAPOL-key frame.") either in CAPWAP or
802.11,
>>>> because otherwise there is no interoperability. For
>>> example, AC provided
>>>> by another vendor does not have to set KeyRSC to 0 to be
>>> compliant with
>>>> CAPWAP and 802.11i.
>>>>
>>>> Another implication is that we don't really understand the impact
of
>>>> mandating a static KeyRSC value. Although Bob provided an excellent
>>>> analysis, I still have some doubts about the profoundness
>>> of the impact.
>>>> If the KeyRSC value is as described of no use, why would it
>>> appear in
>>>> the EAPOL frames in the first place? By mandating it to
>>> static value,
>>>> what have we lost? Maybe some liaison letter to 802.1 or
>>> 802.11 could
>>>> provide us a better understanding of the issue.
>>>>
>>>> For the last two options, I think they are both within
>>> CAPWAP's scope.
>>>> Further analysis could help us to decide which one  is better (or
>>>> someone could propose other solutions).
>>>>
>>>> cheers
>>>>
>>>> Cheng Hong
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto: pcalhoun@cisco.com]
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:39 AM
>>>>> To: Cheng Hong; Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;
>>>>> Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
>>>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
>>>>> Considerations
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob's point is 802.11i works this way today. The AP (or in
>>>>> this case AC) can set the RSC to whatever value it wishes.
>>>>> Bob used zero (0) as an example. Implementations could use
>>>>> any other value, which would require some form of
>>>>> communication to the WTP, as suggested by Behcet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pat Calhoun
>>>>> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
>>>>> Cisco Systems
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Cheng Hong [mailto:  <mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>
>>>> Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:03 PM
>>>>>> To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson
>>>>> J (LI/EAB)
>>>>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
>>>>>> Considerations
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I understand your description below correct, you are
>>> proposing a
>>>>>> solution (to the problem pointed out by
>>>>>> Saravanan) by mandating the behavior of the AC to always set the
>>>>>> KeyRSC in the 4-way handshake to zero.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is not a defined behavior according to the current
>>>>>> 802.11 standard.
>>>>>> Are you suggesting that we CAPWAP WG should specifically
>>>>> mandate that
>>>>>> in our CAPWAP protocol spec, e.g. something like "a CAPWAP
>>>>> compatible
>>>>>> AC MUST set KeyRSC to zero"? Otherwise, the problem still exists,
>>>>>> since not all AC implementation have to follow what you
described.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or, are you planning to take this issue to TGm for 802.11
standard
>>>>>> revision? (since based on your description, there is
>>> essentially no
>>>>>> use of the KeyRSC).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheng Hong
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com]
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:32 AM
>>>>>>> To: T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
>>>>>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
>>>>>>> Considerations
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Charles, Peter,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Below is an expansion of a snippet from a thread on this
>>>>>> topic that I
>>>>>>> sent to the list on July 25, 2006.  I think this will be
>>>>> helpful to
>>>>>>> understand why the exchange that Saranavan is requesting is not
>>>>>>> necessary.  In fact, there are several systems from several
>>>>>>> manufacturers in the field using precursor protocols to
>>>>> CAPWAP that
>>>>>>> are Wi-Fi certified for WPA2/802.11i operation using the
>>>>>> protocol as
>>>>>>> it is described below.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BTW, this whole discussion is about the KeyRSC for the
>>>>>> group key, not
>>>>>>> the pairwise key.  This is so because the WTP and AC both
>>>>> know the
>>>>>>> initial sequence counter value for the pairwise key, since it
has
>>>>>>> never been used to send a frame.   802.11i requires the
>>>>> first frame
>>>>>>> sent on a key to use the sequence counter value of 1.  See
>>>>>> 8.3.2.6 c)
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> 8.3.3.4.3 c) in 802.11i for this requirement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The same is not true of the group key, i.e., after the WTP
begins
>>>>>>> operation, the AC will not know the value of the sequence
>>>>>> counter for
>>>>>>> the group key when it needs to complete the EAPOL-key
>>>>>> handshake with a
>>>>>>> newly associated STA.
>>>>>>> However, as you will see from the tutorial below, it is not
>>>>>> necessary
>>>>>>> for the AC and WTP to exchange any information about the
>>>>> group key
>>>>>>> KeyRSC for the protocol to operate as it is intended.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. A value for the KeyRSC in the EAPOL-key frame is necessary to
>>>>>>> calculate the KeyMIC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. This value does not need to bear any specific
>>>>>> relationship to the
>>>>>>> RSC value maintained by the WTP.  A value of zero in the
>>>>> EAPOL-key
>>>>>>> frame for the group key will always work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3. The client STA will use the value of KeyRSC received in the
>>>>>>> EAPOL-key frame to validate frame using the KeyMIC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 4. The client STA will also set its group key RSC to the value
>>>>>>> received in KeyRSC, say, zero.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5. The value in the client STA's RSC will be compared against
the
>>>>>>> sequence number in subsequent received frames to identify replay
>>>>>>> attacks.  Any frame received with a sequence counter value
>>>>>> within the
>>>>>>> replay window will be checked to have a valid MIC.  If the
>>>>>> MIC is not
>>>>>>> valid, the frame is dropped.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 6. For any frame that is determined not to be a replay
>>>>> attack frame
>>>>>>> and meets all other validity and authenticity requirements,
>>>>>> the client
>>>>>>> STA updates its RSC value to the sequence number in the received
>>>>>>> frame, if the value is greater than its current RSC value.
>>>>>> Only the
>>>>>>> AP can meet these criteria as the source of a frame
>>>>> received by the
>>>>>>> STA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 7. Please see item 6, immediately above, for the reason
>>>>> that the AC
>>>>>>> and WTP do not need to coordinate and exchange the RSC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The only possible attack mode is for the attacker to send
>>>>> frames to
>>>>>>> the client STA between the time of the EAPOL-key frame and
>>>>>> the first
>>>>>>> frame encrypted with the group key.
>>>>>>> During this time, the client will receive the frame and
>>>>> proceed to
>>>>>>> validate its MIC.  This is a potential attack against the STA
>>>>>>> resources.  But, the MIC validation is done in the STA's
>>>>>>> 802.11 chip and consumes no more resources than receiving
>>>>> any other
>>>>>>> frame.  Thus, the attack does not actually consume any STA
>>>>>> resources
>>>>>>> beyond those of receiving a frame.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This attack is not unique to the use of the value zero for
>>>>>> the KeyRSC,
>>>>>>> either.  The same attack is available to an attacker at any
other
>>>>>>> time, as well.  It is no more nor less effective at either time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For these reasons, the protocol is not in need of any changes to
>>>>>>> address the issue raised by Saranavan.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  -Bob
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu]
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:37 AM
>>>>>>> To: Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
>>>>>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
>>>>>>> Considerations
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is a very interesting solution.  The AC selects the
>>>>> KeyRSC and
>>>>>>> performs the 4-way handshake.  The WTP sniffs the 4-way
handshake
>>>>>>> traffic and grabs the KeyRSC value and uses it to
>>>>>> initialize its own
>>>>>>> counter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pat/Bob: Is this how the Cisco implementation works?  I
>>>>>> have to agree
>>>>>>> with Saravanan that I've yet to see a technical
>>>>> description of how
>>>>>>> Cisco implements it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IMHO, this is somewhat hackish, and it would be cleaner to
>>>>>> have the AC
>>>>>>> generate the KeyRSC and include it in the AddMobile message
>>>>>> as Behcet
>>>>>>> suggests.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |
>>>>> www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think Saravanan has a point. We did a prototype
>>>>>> impelementation of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> protocol a year ago when it was still called LWAPP. The way
>>>>>>> we solved
>>>>>>>> this issue then was to let the WTP sniff on all CAPWAP data
>>>>>>> messages
>>>>>>>> from the AC and when message 3 of the 4-way handshake or
>>>>>>> message 1 of
>>>>>>>> the groupkey handshake was sent the WTP inserted the correct
RSC
>>>>>>> before
>>>>>>>> sending it off to the supplicant. To avoid the sniffing on
>>>>>>> all CAPWAP
>>>>>>>> data messages we would need a mechanism with in CAPWAP to
>>>>>>> handle these
>>>>>>>> two messages.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter Nilsson
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Saravanan Govindan
>>>>>>> [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com]
>>>>>>>> Sent: den 22 september 2006 11:03
>>>>>>>> To: Margaret Wasserman
>>>>>>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
>>>>>>> Considerations
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Margaret,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you for reviewing the discussion on this issue.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The issue here is the working of IEEE 802.11i when the 802.11i
>>>>>>>> authenticator element is at the AC and the 802.11i crypto
>>>>>> element is
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> the WTP. Particularly, it is for the 4-way handshake between
>>>>>>>> authenticator and supplicant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now, the 4-way handshake requires knowing the value of
>>>>>>> KeyRSC sequence
>>>>>>>> counter. The KeyRSC helps both authenticator and supplicant
>>>>>>> keep track
>>>>>>>> of their exchanges. It serves to protect against threats by
>>>>>>> tracking
>>>>>>>> sequential frames. The KeyRSC is maintained at the at the
>>>>>> point of
>>>>>>>> encryption, i.e. just before transmission over the
>>>>>> wireless channel.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the case of CAPWAP, the 4-way handshake is between the AC
>>>>>>>> (authenticator) and the wireless station (supplicant).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The problem arises, when the authenticator is at the AC and
>>>>>>> the crypto
>>>>>>>> element (together with KeyRSC) is at the WTP. This is a
>>>>>>> fairly common
>>>>>>>> design. Now in this case, the AC starts the 4-way
>>>>> handshake but it
>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>> not know the value of the KeyRSC. The KeyRSC is maintained
>>>>>>> by the WTP.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Based on this, the current CAPWAP specification does not
>>>>>> allow for a
>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>> to conduct the 4-way handshake with the correct KeyRSC.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The functionality I would like to see is a way for the
>>>>>> authenticator
>>>>>>>> (AC) to use the correct prevailing value of KeyRSC
>>>>>>> (maintained by the
>>>>>>>> WTP) in its 4-way handshake.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One way to introduce this functionality in to CAPWAP is
>>>>>> to have part
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the 4-way handshake be sent from AC to WTP. This will allow
>>>>>>> the 4-way
>>>>>>>> handshake to use the correct value of the KeyRSC before
>>>>>>> being sent to
>>>>>>>> the wireless station.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I hope this helps clarify my view on the issue.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Saravanan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com]
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:26 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Saravanan Govindan
>>>>>>>> Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
>>>>>>> Considerations
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi again,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Okay, I am even more confused than I thought I was...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Saravanan, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sep 17, 2006, at 10:24 PM, Saravanan Govindan wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Pat,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The issue here is about how 802.11i exchanges are done when
>>>>>>>>> authenticator is at the AC and crypto elements are at
>>>>>> the WTP. This
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> the requirement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And, in response, Pat Calhoun wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sep 18, 2006, at 4:15 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
>>>>>>>>> The current specification allows the authenticator to
>>>>>>> reside in the
>>>>>>>>> AC, while the data packet crypto elements in the WTP. This
>>>>>>> feature is
>>>>>>>>> already in the specification.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pat's message matches my reading of the specification.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, Saravanan, what functionality are you asking for
>>>>> that is not
>>>>>>>> already supported by the specification?  And why do you
>>>>>> think it is
>>>>>>>> necessary?  it will not be helpful to my understanding to
>>>>>>> re-send your
>>>>>>>> proposal or to cite the requirements document...  Please
>>>>>> summarize
>>>>>>>> what functionality you think is missing from the current
>>>>>>> specification
>>>>>>>> and why you think that functionality is necessary to
>>>>> support IEEE
>>>>>>>> 802.11i or any important use case.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At some point, the chairs may need to make a consensus
>>>>>> call on this
>>>>>>>> issue, and I'd like to understand your view and make sure
>>>>>>> that it has
>>>>>>>> been clearly communicated to the WG before we ask the WG to
>>>>>>> decide on
>>>>>>>> this issue.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Margaret
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
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From: "Cheng Hong" <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>
To: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" <boohara@cisco.com>,
	"Charles Clancy" <clancy@cs.umd.edu>,
	"Margaret Wasserman" <margaret@thingmagic.com>
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Dear all,

Some comments below:

cheers

Cheng Hong


> Bob>> I don't believe that this increases the risk of replay attack.
> The risk of attack is related to the presence of an attacker 
> and the time between the 4-way handshake and the next 
> multicast frame transmitted by the AP.  As long as the 
> possibility exists that the KeyRSC does not match the actual 
> TSC, this attack is feasible.

As already discussed in previous emails, unless the KeyRSC follows the
exact RSC value, there could be possible replay attacks. However,
setting the KeyRSC to a static value does make things worse, since it
opens the possibility for the attacker to replay any previous frames.
Repeat the same example: Setting KeyRSC to 0 allows 1000 frames to be
replayed, and setting KeyRSC to a value close to 1000, say 900, will
reduce the possible replay frames to 100. 

The risk is not measured with the "time between the 4-way handshake and
the next multicast frame transmitted by the AP". By looking at the sheer
number of possible replayed frames, the risk is increased by setting
KeyRSC to a static value 0.


> Bob>> It should be noted that "replay" of encrypted/MICed multicast
> frames is inherent in the design of an 802.11 WLAN that has 
> more than one AP in it.  Because the load and availability of 
> transmit opportunities varies with time, location, and 
> channel, it is likely that the STA will encounter a situation 
> where it has received one or more multicast frames from one 
> AP that it will receive again from a second AP that it has 
> just roamed to.  The multicast frames at the second AP have 
> been delayed due to that AP having fewer opportunities to 
> transmit, resulting in longer queuing delays for the first 
> transmission of those multicast frames. 

As already pointed out in several emails, the RSC is maintained per
GTKSA. So, if the different APs are using different GTK, different RSCs
will be used. Not issue exists, since the frames from different APs are
checked against different TSC space (suppose TKIP is used as stated in
clause 8.3.2.6).  

Even in the case that all the APs are sharing the same GTK, the
procedure defined in clause 8.3.2.6 will be carried out at STA.
Duplicated frames will be dropped. There is no place showing the
"replay" is "inherent in the design of an 802.11 WLAN that has more than
one AP in it". 





 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 12:37 AM
> To: Charles Clancy; Margaret Wasserman
> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> Considerations
> 
> Charles, 
> 
> Please see my comments below.
> 
>  -Bob
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu]
> Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 4:11 PM
> To: Margaret Wasserman
> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> Considerations
> 
> I've reread the thread and reread the relevent portions of 
> 11i.  I think my statements before were partially inaccurate. 
>  The security and overhead ramifications are not insignificant.
> 
> We can:
> 
> 1. Set the KeyRSC to a static value.  This increases the risk 
> of replay attacks of multicast/broadcast packets encrypted 
> with the group key between the time the client authenticates 
> and when the first legitimate group key-encrypted packet is 
> transmitted.
> 
> Bob>> I don't believe that this increases the risk of replay attack.
> The risk of attack is related to the presence of an attacker 
> and the time between the 4-way handshake and the next 
> multicast frame transmitted by the AP.  As long as the 
> possibility exists that the KeyRSC does not match the actual 
> TSC, this attack is feasible.
> 
> Bob>> It should be noted that "replay" of encrypted/MICed multicast
> frames is inherent in the design of an 802.11 WLAN that has 
> more than one AP in it.  Because the load and availability of 
> transmit opportunities varies with time, location, and 
> channel, it is likely that the STA will encounter a situation 
> where it has received one or more multicast frames from one 
> AP that it will receive again from a second AP that it has 
> just roamed to.  The multicast frames at the second AP have 
> been delayed due to that AP having fewer opportunities to 
> transmit, resulting in longer queuing delays for the first 
> transmission of those multicast frames. 
> 
> 2. Periodically transmit the KeyRSC from the WTP to the AC.  
> This would allow for fewer packets to be replayed, but would 
> not completely prevent replay attacks.  Probabalistically, it 
> would weaken their effectiveness.
> 
> The added price is more protocol overhead.
> 
> 3. Have the WTP request the GTK prior to initiating the 4-way 
> handshake.
> 
> This would eliminate replay attacks, but add one round trip 
> to the authentication process.  This could possibly be 
> optimized by having the WTP detect EAPOL message 1 being sent 
> to the STA, and immediately transmit it to the AC before it 
> needs it for EAPOL message 3.
> 
> Bob>> The WTP already has the GTK, if it has any STAs 
> associated.  There
> is no need for it to request it from the AC.  I am not sure 
> what this would accomplish.
> 
> Transporting the KCK to the WTP breaks the security model, 
> and should not be considered a viable option.
> 
> Bob>> Agreed.
> 
> None of the approaches affect the STA operation, or require 
> any changes to 802.11.
> 
> Bob>> Agreed.
> 
> Here's a question: what happens if the newly authenticated 
> STA tries to transmit a GTK-encrypted packet using RSC=0?  
> Would it get dropped?  Is this a problem, particularly for 
> protocols such as DHCP?
> 
> Bob>> The STA cannot transmit on the GTK, this is not allowed 
> by 802.11.
> Any frame sent to a multicast destination in 802.11 by an 
> associated STA must be sent directly to the AP, encrypted on 
> the PTK, where it is then decrypted and forwarded (both to 
> the wire and to the BSS encrypted on the GTK) as a multicast 
> frame.  Only the frame from the AP will be encrypted on the 
> GTK.  All STAs are required to drop any frames addressed to 
> them that are not sent from the AP, when associated to an AP. 
>  This is done prior to checking MIC or decrypting the frame.
> 
> --
> t. charles clancy, ph.d.  <>  tcc@umd.edu  <>  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
> 
> On Sat, September 30, 2006 12:00 pm, Margaret Wasserman wrote:
> >
> >
> > Could one of you explain to me what the implications would 
> be of the 
> > AC always using an RSC value of 0 to compute the MIC in 
> message 3 of 
> > the 4-way handshake?
> >
> > Would this reduce/eliminate the value of the RSC as a security 
> > mechanism?  Does it imply something about how the WTP needs 
> to behave?  
> > Something about how the supplicant needs to behave?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Margaret
> >
> >
> > On Sep 29, 2006, at 4:43 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
> >
> >> To be fair, one option requires that message 3 be created, and 
> >> encrypted, in the WTP. This implies that encryption and
> authentication
> >> keys required to formulate message 3 be sent to the WTP.
> >>
> >> Seems to me simpler to include text that either states the 
> value of 
> >> zero is always used (simplest), or some configurable value 
> be sent to 
> >> the WTP (simpler).
> >>
> >> Pat Calhoun
> >> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu]
> >>> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:07 PM
> >>> To: Cheng Hong
> >>> Cc: Bob O'Hara (boohara); Dorothy Stanley; Pat Calhoun
> >>> (pacalhou); Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com;
> >>> Saravanan Govindan
> >>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> >>> Considerations
> >>>
> >>> All,
> >>>
> >>> I'm glad to see we're finally arguing about the right issue.
> >>> As discussed, the Cisco solution to the problem is "set 
> it to zero".
> >>> Certainly sniffing the value works as well.  From a security
> >>> standpoint either is just fine.
> >>>
> >>> We do have an interoperability issue, however, if a Cisco WTP
> >>> were used with an AC that's randomly generating a KeyRSC and
> >>> expecting the WTP to sniff it.  So, I think some text is
> >>> necessary to address the issue.
> >>>
> >>> What remains are two entrenched opinions about protocol
> >>> flexibility vs simplicity, neither of which would
> >>> significantly tilt the flexibility vs simplicity balance in
> >>> either of direction.  Let's flip a coin and move on to more
> >>> important issues.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  
> www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Cheng Hong wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Bob,
> >>>>
> >>>> As Dorothy correctly pointed out below, setting the KeyRSC
> >>> to a value
> >>>> closer to the current RSC would be better than setting it to a
> >>>> pre-defined value zero.
> >>>>
> >>>> It is true that 802.11i and 802.1X do not specify what is the
> KeyRSC
> >>>> value to be used, since they are trying to provide us a tool to
> >>>> correctly synchronize the RSC using the Msg 3. By mandating
> >>> the KeyRSC
> >>>> to zero, we are just disabling the tool. It is not 
> wrong, but just
> >>>> deprives the system a designed function.
> >>>>
> >>>> As for the effectiveness of KeyRSC, setting it to a
> >>> predefined value of
> >>>> 0 would pose a greater threat. In a simple example, if the RSC is
> >>>> currently 1000, and we are mandating the KeyRSC to be
> >>> always zero, the
> >>>> attacker basically can safely replay the last 1000 packets
> >>> to the STA
> >>>> without being detected. If the KeyRSC can be set to a
> >>> closer value of
> >>>> the current RSC, say, 900, the number of possible replayed
> >>> packets can
> >>>> be reduced to 10 percent, 100 packets.
> >>>>
> >>>> Therefore, I would say, setting the KeyRSC value to zero
> >>> does place a
> >>>> bigger threat. Is that how the cisco products implemented? Maybe
> you
> >>>> could share with us some other implementation/testing 
> data to prove
> >>>> otherwise. Or, you have some other considerations that
> >>> could defend the
> >>>> replay attack?
> >>>>
> >>>> cheers
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheng Hong
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>  _____
> >>>>
> >>>> From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com]
> >>>> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:21 AM
> >>>> To: Dorothy Stanley
> >>>> Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy;
> >>> Peter Nilsson
> >>>> J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com
> >>>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> >>> Considerations
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Dorothy,
> >>>>
> >>>> The problem with this proposal is that it is no more 
> effective than
> >>>> sending a value of zero for the KeyRSC.  It doesn't eliminate any
> >>>> potential attacks.  It doesn't add any functionality.
> >>> However, it does
> >>>> add cost and complexity to the protocol.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Bob
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>  _____
> >>>>
> >>>> From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:17 PM
> >>>> To: Bob O'Hara (boohara)
> >>>> Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy;
> >>> Peter Nilsson
> >>>> J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> >>> Considerations
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> All,
> >>>>
> >>>> Below is the text from 802.11REV-maD8.0 Clause 8.5.2,
> >>> describing the Key
> >>>> RSC field.:
> >>>>
> >>>> "g) Key RSC. This field is 8 octets in length. It contains
> >>> the receive
> >>>> sequence counter (RSC) for the
> >>>> GTK being installed in IEEE 802.11. It is used in Message 3
> >>> of the 4-Way
> >>>> Handshake and
> >>>> Message 1 of the Group Key Handshake, where it is used to
> >>> synchronize
> >>>> the IEEE 802.11 replay
> >>>> state. It may also be used in the Michael MIC Failure
> >>> Report frame, to
> >>>> report the TSC field value of
> >>>> the frame experiencing a MIC failure. It shall contain 0 in other
> >>>> messages. The Key RSC field gives
> >>>> the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA 
> to identify
> >>>> replayed MPDUs. If the Key
> >>>> RSC field value is less than 8 octets in length, the
> >>> remaining octets
> >>>> shall be set to 0. The least significant
> >>>> octet of the TSC or PN should be in the first octet of 
> the Key RSC
> >>>> field."
> >>>>
> >>>> The intent of adding this value in message 3 was to
> >>> immediately minimize
> >>>> the number of
> >>>> replayed frames that a STA would potentially process: "The
> >>> Key RSC field
> >>>> gives
> >>>> the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA 
> to identify
> >>>> replayed MPDUs."
> >>>> Setting the value to 0 in Msg 3 does not provide the
> >>> current sequence
> >>>> counter (in most cases
> >>>> not even close) of the GTK..
> >>>>
> >>>> Perhaps the WTP could periodically/frequently notify the 
> AC of its
> >>>> current GTK sequence counter, and the
> >>>> AC would use the most recently received value in the
> >>> message 3 sent to
> >>>> new STAs. The RSC value
> >>>> would not be  up to date at all times, but would be closer
> >>> than "0", not
> >>>> require an "in-the-critical-path
> >>>> message exchange between the AC and WTP, and still be 
> close to the
> >>>> intended use of the field.
> >>>>
> >>>> Dorothy
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 9/28/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) <boohara@cisco.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Please understand that 802.11i specifies no behavior in
> >>> this area for
> >>>> the 802.1X authenticator.  Our choice to send a group key
> >>> KeyRSC value
> >>>> of zero in the EAPOL-key frame requires no change to 
> 802.11i or to
> >>>> 802.1X .  It requires us to state this in the CAPWAP spec,
> >>> if we want
> >>>> this behavior to be consistent across all implementations.
> >>>>
> >>>> The problem with what Bechet and Saranavan are asking is
> >>> that either of
> >>>> three different things are required:
> >>>> 1: the WTP must communicate the group key TSC to the AC
> >>> every time it is
> >>>> updated, or
> >>>> 2: the AC must request the current value of the group key
> >>> TSC for the
> >>>> KeyRSC before constructing the EAPOL-key frame, or
> >>>> 3: the AC must send the KCK to the AC so  that it can
> >>> insert the KeyRSC
> >>>> value and also calculate the correct MIC, inserting that
> >>> into the proper
> >>>> EAPOL-key frame.
> >>>>
> >>>> The first item requires a tremendous amount of additional CAPWAP
> >>>> communication between WTP and AC, at least one new CAPWAP packet
> for
> >>>> every multicast frame sent by the WTP, if the packet is not
> >>>> acknowledged, or two new CAPWAP packets, if it is
> >>> acknowledged.  This is
> >>>> a very expensive addition to the protocol.
> >>>>
> >>>> The second item requires new protocol between the AC and
> >>> WTP during what
> >>>> can be a time critical portion of the 802.11 transition
> >>> (handoff, roam)
> >>>> from one WTP to another.  It also introduces a race
> >>> condition that is
> >>>> not present in the protocol today.  Once the value for the KeyRSC
> is
> >>>> sent from the WTP to the AC, it is possible that the WTP can send
> >>>> another multicast frame encrypted with the group key.  This puts
> the
> >>>> value of the sequence counter out of sync with the value
> >>> that will be
> >>>> shortly communicated to the client in the EAPOL-key frame
> >>> from the AC.
> >>>> This will behave exactly the same as if a value of zero is
> >>> sent in the
> >>>> EAPOL-key frame.
> >>>>
> >>>> The third item requires a new architecture split that is
> >>> not required in
> >>>>
> >>>> our objectives.  The new split is not splitting the MAC,
> >>> but splitting
> >>>> the authenticator.  Placing the KCK in the WTP is also a 
> potential
> >>>> reduction in the security of the overall WLAN system, since these
> >>>> devices are normally not in a secured wiring closet, but exposed
> and
> >>>> more easily compromised than the AC.
> >>>>
> >>>> The simplest to implement, least expensive, and most secure
> >>> option is to
> >>>> use the protocol as it is now specified and have the AC
> >>> send a value of
> >>>> zero in the KeyRSC field of the EAPOL-key frame.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Bob
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:50 PM
> >>>> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles
> Clancy;
> >>>> Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> >>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> >>>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> >>> Considerations
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Pat and all,
> >>>>
> >>>> So, based on this, I would say that we have consensus that
> >>> setting the
> >>>> correct KeyRSC is an issue for the CAPWAP protocol design.
> >>>>
> >>>> So far, we have three option/solutions:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1) As proposed by Bob: Using a static value (0) for the KeyRSC.
> >>>>
> >>>> 2) As suggested by Behcet: AC communicate a correct KeyRSC to WTP
> >>>>
> >>>> 3) As suggested by Saravanana: Some exchange mechanism
> >>> between WTP and
> >>>> AC
> >>>>
> >>>> Among the three, the first option seems the easiest. However, it
> >>>> requires a mandated Authenticator behavior(in this case AC)
> >>> that is not
> >>>> mandated by 802.11. Therefore, we have to specify that
> >>> (e.g. as proposed
> >>>> by Bob: "We could include a note to the effect that the group
> KeyRSC
> >>>> should be zero in the EAPOL-key frame.") either in CAPWAP or
> 802.11,
> >>>> because otherwise there is no interoperability. For
> >>> example, AC provided
> >>>> by another vendor does not have to set KeyRSC to 0 to be
> >>> compliant with
> >>>> CAPWAP and 802.11i.
> >>>>
> >>>> Another implication is that we don't really understand the impact
> of
> >>>> mandating a static KeyRSC value. Although Bob provided 
> an excellent
> >>>> analysis, I still have some doubts about the profoundness
> >>> of the impact.
> >>>> If the KeyRSC value is as described of no use, why would it
> >>> appear in
> >>>> the EAPOL frames in the first place? By mandating it to
> >>> static value,
> >>>> what have we lost? Maybe some liaison letter to 802.1 or
> >>> 802.11 could
> >>>> provide us a better understanding of the issue.
> >>>>
> >>>> For the last two options, I think they are both within
> >>> CAPWAP's scope.
> >>>> Further analysis could help us to decide which one  is better (or
> >>>> someone could propose other solutions).
> >>>>
> >>>> cheers
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheng Hong
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto: pcalhoun@cisco.com]
> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:39 AM
> >>>>> To: Cheng Hong; Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;
> >>>>> Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> >>>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> >>>>> Considerations
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Bob's point is 802.11i works this way today. The AP (or in
> >>>>> this case AC) can set the RSC to whatever value it wishes.
> >>>>> Bob used zero (0) as an example. Implementations could use
> >>>>> any other value, which would require some form of
> >>>>> communication to the WTP, as suggested by Behcet.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Pat Calhoun
> >>>>> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> >>>>> Cisco Systems
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Cheng Hong [mailto:  <mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>
> >>>> Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:03 PM
> >>>>>> To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson
> >>>>> J (LI/EAB)
> >>>>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> >>>>>> Considerations
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi Bob,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If I understand your description below correct, you are
> >>> proposing a
> >>>>>> solution (to the problem pointed out by
> >>>>>> Saravanan) by mandating the behavior of the AC to 
> always set the
> >>>>>> KeyRSC in the 4-way handshake to zero.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This is not a defined behavior according to the current
> >>>>>> 802.11 standard.
> >>>>>> Are you suggesting that we CAPWAP WG should specifically
> >>>>> mandate that
> >>>>>> in our CAPWAP protocol spec, e.g. something like "a CAPWAP
> >>>>> compatible
> >>>>>> AC MUST set KeyRSC to zero"? Otherwise, the problem 
> still exists,
> >>>>>> since not all AC implementation have to follow what you
> described.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Or, are you planning to take this issue to TGm for 802.11
> standard
> >>>>>> revision? (since based on your description, there is
> >>> essentially no
> >>>>>> use of the KeyRSC).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> cheers
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheng Hong
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>> From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com]
> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:32 AM
> >>>>>>> To: T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> >>>>>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> >>>>>>> Considerations
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Charles, Peter,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Below is an expansion of a snippet from a thread on this
> >>>>>> topic that I
> >>>>>>> sent to the list on July 25, 2006.  I think this will be
> >>>>> helpful to
> >>>>>>> understand why the exchange that Saranavan is 
> requesting is not
> >>>>>>> necessary.  In fact, there are several systems from several
> >>>>>>> manufacturers in the field using precursor protocols to
> >>>>> CAPWAP that
> >>>>>>> are Wi-Fi certified for WPA2/802.11i operation using the
> >>>>>> protocol as
> >>>>>>> it is described below.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> BTW, this whole discussion is about the KeyRSC for the
> >>>>>> group key, not
> >>>>>>> the pairwise key.  This is so because the WTP and AC both
> >>>>> know the
> >>>>>>> initial sequence counter value for the pairwise key, since it
> has
> >>>>>>> never been used to send a frame.   802.11i requires the
> >>>>> first frame
> >>>>>>> sent on a key to use the sequence counter value of 1.  See
> >>>>>> 8.3.2.6 c)
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> 8.3.3.4.3 c) in 802.11i for this requirement.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The same is not true of the group key, i.e., after the WTP
> begins
> >>>>>>> operation, the AC will not know the value of the sequence
> >>>>>> counter for
> >>>>>>> the group key when it needs to complete the EAPOL-key
> >>>>>> handshake with a
> >>>>>>> newly associated STA.
> >>>>>>> However, as you will see from the tutorial below, it is not
> >>>>>> necessary
> >>>>>>> for the AC and WTP to exchange any information about the
> >>>>> group key
> >>>>>>> KeyRSC for the protocol to operate as it is intended.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 1. A value for the KeyRSC in the EAPOL-key frame is 
> necessary to
> >>>>>>> calculate the KeyMIC.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 2. This value does not need to bear any specific
> >>>>>> relationship to the
> >>>>>>> RSC value maintained by the WTP.  A value of zero in the
> >>>>> EAPOL-key
> >>>>>>> frame for the group key will always work.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 3. The client STA will use the value of KeyRSC received in the
> >>>>>>> EAPOL-key frame to validate frame using the KeyMIC.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 4. The client STA will also set its group key RSC to the value
> >>>>>>> received in KeyRSC, say, zero.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 5. The value in the client STA's RSC will be compared against
> the
> >>>>>>> sequence number in subsequent received frames to 
> identify replay
> >>>>>>> attacks.  Any frame received with a sequence counter value
> >>>>>> within the
> >>>>>>> replay window will be checked to have a valid MIC.  If the
> >>>>>> MIC is not
> >>>>>>> valid, the frame is dropped.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 6. For any frame that is determined not to be a replay
> >>>>> attack frame
> >>>>>>> and meets all other validity and authenticity requirements,
> >>>>>> the client
> >>>>>>> STA updates its RSC value to the sequence number in 
> the received
> >>>>>>> frame, if the value is greater than its current RSC value.
> >>>>>> Only the
> >>>>>>> AP can meet these criteria as the source of a frame
> >>>>> received by the
> >>>>>>> STA.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 7. Please see item 6, immediately above, for the reason
> >>>>> that the AC
> >>>>>>> and WTP do not need to coordinate and exchange the RSC.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The only possible attack mode is for the attacker to send
> >>>>> frames to
> >>>>>>> the client STA between the time of the EAPOL-key frame and
> >>>>>> the first
> >>>>>>> frame encrypted with the group key.
> >>>>>>> During this time, the client will receive the frame and
> >>>>> proceed to
> >>>>>>> validate its MIC.  This is a potential attack against the STA
> >>>>>>> resources.  But, the MIC validation is done in the STA's
> >>>>>>> 802.11 chip and consumes no more resources than receiving
> >>>>> any other
> >>>>>>> frame.  Thus, the attack does not actually consume any STA
> >>>>>> resources
> >>>>>>> beyond those of receiving a frame.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This attack is not unique to the use of the value zero for
> >>>>>> the KeyRSC,
> >>>>>>> either.  The same attack is available to an attacker at any
> other
> >>>>>>> time, as well.  It is no more nor less effective at 
> either time.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> For these reasons, the protocol is not in need of any 
> changes to
> >>>>>>> address the issue raised by Saranavan.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>  -Bob
> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>> From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu]
> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:37 AM
> >>>>>>> To: Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> >>>>>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> >>>>>>> Considerations
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This is a very interesting solution.  The AC selects the
> >>>>> KeyRSC and
> >>>>>>> performs the 4-way handshake.  The WTP sniffs the 4-way
> handshake
> >>>>>>> traffic and grabs the KeyRSC value and uses it to
> >>>>>> initialize its own
> >>>>>>> counter.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Pat/Bob: Is this how the Cisco implementation works?  I
> >>>>>> have to agree
> >>>>>>> with Saravanan that I've yet to see a technical
> >>>>> description of how
> >>>>>>> Cisco implements it.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> IMHO, this is somewhat hackish, and it would be cleaner to
> >>>>>> have the AC
> >>>>>>> generate the KeyRSC and include it in the AddMobile message
> >>>>>> as Behcet
> >>>>>>> suggests.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |
> >>>>> www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I think Saravanan has a point. We did a prototype
> >>>>>> impelementation of
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> protocol a year ago when it was still called LWAPP. The way
> >>>>>>> we solved
> >>>>>>>> this issue then was to let the WTP sniff on all CAPWAP data
> >>>>>>> messages
> >>>>>>>> from the AC and when message 3 of the 4-way handshake or
> >>>>>>> message 1 of
> >>>>>>>> the groupkey handshake was sent the WTP inserted the correct
> RSC
> >>>>>>> before
> >>>>>>>> sending it off to the supplicant. To avoid the sniffing on
> >>>>>>> all CAPWAP
> >>>>>>>> data messages we would need a mechanism with in CAPWAP to
> >>>>>>> handle these
> >>>>>>>> two messages.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Peter Nilsson
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: Saravanan Govindan
> >>>>>>> [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com]
> >>>>>>>> Sent: den 22 september 2006 11:03
> >>>>>>>> To: Margaret Wasserman
> >>>>>>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> >>>>>>> Considerations
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi Margaret,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thank you for reviewing the discussion on this issue.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The issue here is the working of IEEE 802.11i when 
> the 802.11i
> >>>>>>>> authenticator element is at the AC and the 802.11i crypto
> >>>>>> element is
> >>>>>>> at
> >>>>>>>> the WTP. Particularly, it is for the 4-way handshake between
> >>>>>>>> authenticator and supplicant.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Now, the 4-way handshake requires knowing the value of
> >>>>>>> KeyRSC sequence
> >>>>>>>> counter. The KeyRSC helps both authenticator and supplicant
> >>>>>>> keep track
> >>>>>>>> of their exchanges. It serves to protect against threats by
> >>>>>>> tracking
> >>>>>>>> sequential frames. The KeyRSC is maintained at the at the
> >>>>>> point of
> >>>>>>>> encryption, i.e. just before transmission over the
> >>>>>> wireless channel.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> In the case of CAPWAP, the 4-way handshake is between the AC
> >>>>>>>> (authenticator) and the wireless station (supplicant).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The problem arises, when the authenticator is at the AC and
> >>>>>>> the crypto
> >>>>>>>> element (together with KeyRSC) is at the WTP. This is a
> >>>>>>> fairly common
> >>>>>>>> design. Now in this case, the AC starts the 4-way
> >>>>> handshake but it
> >>>>>>> does
> >>>>>>>> not know the value of the KeyRSC. The KeyRSC is maintained
> >>>>>>> by the WTP.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Based on this, the current CAPWAP specification does not
> >>>>>> allow for a
> >>>>>>> way
> >>>>>>>> to conduct the 4-way handshake with the correct KeyRSC.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The functionality I would like to see is a way for the
> >>>>>> authenticator
> >>>>>>>> (AC) to use the correct prevailing value of KeyRSC
> >>>>>>> (maintained by the
> >>>>>>>> WTP) in its 4-way handshake.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> One way to introduce this functionality in to CAPWAP is
> >>>>>> to have part
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>> the 4-way handshake be sent from AC to WTP. This will allow
> >>>>>>> the 4-way
> >>>>>>>> handshake to use the correct value of the KeyRSC before
> >>>>>>> being sent to
> >>>>>>>> the wireless station.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I hope this helps clarify my view on the issue.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Saravanan
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com]
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:26 PM
> >>>>>>>> To: Saravanan Govindan
> >>>>>>>> Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> >>>>>>> Considerations
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi again,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Okay, I am even more confused than I thought I was...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Saravanan, you wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Sep 17, 2006, at 10:24 PM, Saravanan Govindan wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Pat,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The issue here is about how 802.11i exchanges are done when
> >>>>>>>>> authenticator is at the AC and crypto elements are at
> >>>>>> the WTP. This
> >>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>> the requirement.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> And, in response, Pat Calhoun wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Sep 18, 2006, at 4:15 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> The current specification allows the authenticator to
> >>>>>>> reside in the
> >>>>>>>>> AC, while the data packet crypto elements in the WTP. This
> >>>>>>> feature is
> >>>>>>>>> already in the specification.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Pat's message matches my reading of the specification.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> So, Saravanan, what functionality are you asking for
> >>>>> that is not
> >>>>>>>> already supported by the specification?  And why do you
> >>>>>> think it is
> >>>>>>>> necessary?  it will not be helpful to my understanding to
> >>>>>>> re-send your
> >>>>>>>> proposal or to cite the requirements document...  Please
> >>>>>> summarize
> >>>>>>>> what functionality you think is missing from the current
> >>>>>>> specification
> >>>>>>>> and why you think that functionality is necessary to
> >>>>> support IEEE
> >>>>>>>> 802.11i or any important use case.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> At some point, the chairs may need to make a consensus
> >>>>>> call on this
> >>>>>>>> issue, and I'd like to understand your view and make sure
> >>>>>>> that it has
> >>>>>>>> been clearly communicated to the WG before we ask the WG to
> >>>>>>> decide on
> >>>>>>>> this issue.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>> Margaret
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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From: "Cheng Hong" <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>
To: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" <boohara@cisco.com>,
	"Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>
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Cc: Saravanan Govindan <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>,
	capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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Now to address technical portion of your comment:


Again, your proposal does not eliminate any attack mechanism and does
not add any functionality to the protocol, only cost and complexity.  A
replayed frame will be discarded by the MAC, using the normal duplicate
frame detection mechanisms.  See section 8.3.3.3.2 of 802.11i (where the
frame sequence number is part of the additional authenticated data) and
section 9.2.9 of 802.11-1999 for the description of these functions.
And PLEASE read 802.11 and 802.11i before again asserting that this
proposal is necessary.
=20
[[Cheng Hong]] The mechanism defined in 802.11i detects the replay frame
if the frame contains a sequence number out of order. However, if the
KeyRSC has been set to 0, it means the initial RSC at the STA is forced
to be 0 when it joins the BSS. This makes the STA to take any received
frame as a valid frame since the sequence is in order. So, if the
attacker replay frames with sequence in order, the STA has no way to
detect that, until a frame of higher sequence order is received
(supposedly by the actual AP instead of another attacker).
=20
=20
As I said several emails ago, the ONLY effect of using zero as the value
for the KeyRSC is that the 802.11 chipset in the STA (client) will have
to receive the frame, attempt to decrypt it, and validate the MIC.  This
must be done for EVERY frame received, whether it is a replayed frame or
not.  This set of functions is performed in the 802.11 STA chipset and
does not consume any additional resources of the STA.  So, the attack,
if it can even be characterized as an attack, is no more effective at
DOSing the STA than sending it any other frame.
=20
[[Cheng Hong]]  As commented above, the risk of setting the KeyRSC to 0
is to allow those replay frames to pass 802.11 chipset replay check
procedures, and left the detection of the replay to higher layer, and it
obviously poses higher DOS threats to the STA. Setting KeyRSC to a value
closer to RSC will allow the replay being detected earlier, and reduces
the possible DOS attack frames.
=20

 -Bob
 =20

=20

  _____ =20

From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:34 PM
To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); Dorothy Stanley
Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB);
capwap@frascone.com; Saravanan Govindan
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations


Hi Bob,
=20
As Dorothy correctly pointed out below, setting the KeyRSC to a value
closer to the current RSC would be better than setting it to a
pre-defined value zero.=20
=20
It is true that 802.11i and 802.1X do not specify what is the KeyRSC
value to be used, since they are trying to provide us a tool to
correctly synchronize the RSC using the Msg 3. By mandating the KeyRSC
to zero, we are just disabling the tool. It is not wrong, but just
deprives the system a designed function.
=20
As for the effectiveness of KeyRSC, setting it to a predefined value of
0 would pose a greater threat. In a simple example, if the RSC is
currently 1000, and we are mandating the KeyRSC to be always zero, the
attacker basically can safely replay the last 1000 packets to the STA
without being detected. If the KeyRSC can be set to a closer value of
the current RSC, say, 900, the number of possible replayed packets can
be reduced to 10 percent, 100 packets.=20
=20
Therefore, I would say, setting the KeyRSC value to zero does place a
bigger threat. Is that how the cisco products implemented? Maybe you
could share with us some other implementation/testing data to prove
otherwise. Or, you have some other considerations that could defend the
replay attack?
=20
cheers
=20
Cheng Hong
=20


  _____ =20

From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:21 AM
To: Dorothy Stanley
Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson
J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations


Dorothy,
=20
The problem with this proposal is that it is no more effective than
sending a value of zero for the KeyRSC.  It doesn't eliminate any
potential attacks.  It doesn't add any functionality.  However, it does
add cost and complexity to the protocol. =20

 -Bob
 =20

=20

  _____ =20

From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:17 PM
To: Bob O'Hara (boohara)
Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson
J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations


All,

Below is the text from 802.11REV-maD8.0 Clause 8.5.2, describing the Key
RSC field.:

"g) Key RSC. This field is 8 octets in length. It contains the receive
sequence counter (RSC) for the
GTK being installed in IEEE 802.11. It is used in Message 3 of the 4-Way
Handshake and
Message 1 of the Group Key Handshake, where it is used to synchronize
the IEEE 802.11 replay
state. It may also be used in the Michael MIC Failure Report frame, to
report the TSC field value of
the frame experiencing a MIC failure. It shall contain 0 in other
messages. The Key RSC field gives
the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify
replayed MPDUs. If the Key
RSC field value is less than 8 octets in length, the remaining octets
shall be set to 0. The least significant
octet of the TSC or PN should be in the first octet of the Key RSC
field."

The intent of adding this value in message 3 was to immediately minimize
the number of=20
replayed frames that a STA would potentially process: "The Key RSC field
gives
the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify
replayed MPDUs."
Setting the value to 0 in Msg 3 does not provide the current sequence
counter (in most cases
not even close) of the GTK..

Perhaps the WTP could periodically/frequently notify the AC of its
current GTK sequence counter, and the
AC would use the most recently received value in the message 3 sent to
new STAs. The RSC value
would not be  up to date at all times, but would be closer than "0", not
require an "in-the-critical-path
message exchange between the AC and WTP, and still be close to the
intended use of the field.

Dorothy


On 9/28/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) <boohara@cisco.com> wrote:=20

Please understand that 802.11i specifies no behavior in this area for
the 802.1X authenticator.  Our choice to send a group key KeyRSC value
of zero in the EAPOL-key frame requires no change to 802.11i or to
802.1X .  It requires us to state this in the CAPWAP spec, if we want
this behavior to be consistent across all implementations.

The problem with what Bechet and Saranavan are asking is that either of
three different things are required:=20
1: the WTP must communicate the group key TSC to the AC every time it is
updated, or
2: the AC must request the current value of the group key TSC for the
KeyRSC before constructing the EAPOL-key frame, or
3: the AC must send the KCK to the AC so  that it can insert the KeyRSC
value and also calculate the correct MIC, inserting that into the proper
EAPOL-key frame.

The first item requires a tremendous amount of additional CAPWAP=20
communication between WTP and AC, at least one new CAPWAP packet for
every multicast frame sent by the WTP, if the packet is not
acknowledged, or two new CAPWAP packets, if it is acknowledged.  This is
a very expensive addition to the protocol.=20

The second item requires new protocol between the AC and WTP during what
can be a time critical portion of the 802.11 transition (handoff, roam)
from one WTP to another.  It also introduces a race condition that is=20
not present in the protocol today.  Once the value for the KeyRSC is
sent from the WTP to the AC, it is possible that the WTP can send
another multicast frame encrypted with the group key.  This puts the
value of the sequence counter out of sync with the value that will be=20
shortly communicated to the client in the EAPOL-key frame from the AC.
This will behave exactly the same as if a value of zero is sent in the
EAPOL-key frame.

The third item requires a new architecture split that is not required in

our objectives.  The new split is not splitting the MAC, but splitting
the authenticator.  Placing the KCK in the WTP is also a potential
reduction in the security of the overall WLAN system, since these
devices are normally not in a secured wiring closet, but exposed and=20
more easily compromised than the AC.

The simplest to implement, least expensive, and most secure option is to
use the protocol as it is now specified and have the AC send a value of
zero in the KeyRSC field of the EAPOL-key frame.=20

-Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:50 PM
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;=20
Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
Cc: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations

Hi Pat and all,

So, based on this, I would say that we have consensus that setting the=20
correct KeyRSC is an issue for the CAPWAP protocol design.

So far, we have three option/solutions:

1) As proposed by Bob: Using a static value (0) for the KeyRSC.

2) As suggested by Behcet: AC communicate a correct KeyRSC to WTP=20

3) As suggested by Saravanana: Some exchange mechanism between WTP and
AC

Among the three, the first option seems the easiest. However, it
requires a mandated Authenticator behavior(in this case AC) that is not=20
mandated by 802.11. Therefore, we have to specify that (e.g. as proposed
by Bob: "We could include a note to the effect that the group KeyRSC
should be zero in the EAPOL-key frame.") either in CAPWAP or 802.11,
because otherwise there is no interoperability. For example, AC provided
by another vendor does not have to set KeyRSC to 0 to be compliant with
CAPWAP and 802.11i.

Another implication is that we don't really understand the impact of=20
mandating a static KeyRSC value. Although Bob provided an excellent
analysis, I still have some doubts about the profoundness of the impact.
If the KeyRSC value is as described of no use, why would it appear in
the EAPOL frames in the first place? By mandating it to static value,
what have we lost? Maybe some liaison letter to 802.1 or 802.11 could
provide us a better understanding of the issue.

For the last two options, I think they are both within CAPWAP's scope.=20
Further analysis could help us to decide which one  is better (or
someone could propose other solutions).

cheers

Cheng Hong







> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto: pcalhoun@cisco.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:39 AM
> To: Cheng Hong; Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;
> Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> Considerations
>
> Bob's point is 802.11i works this way today. The AP (or in=20
> this case AC) can set the RSC to whatever value it wishes.
> Bob used zero (0) as an example. Implementations could use
> any other value, which would require some form of
> communication to the WTP, as suggested by Behcet.=20
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cheng Hong [mailto:  <mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>
Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:03 PM
> > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson
> J (LI/EAB)
> > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > Considerations
> >
> > Hi Bob,
> >
> > If I understand your description below correct, you are proposing a=20
> > solution (to the problem pointed out by
> > Saravanan) by mandating the behavior of the AC to always set the
> > KeyRSC in the 4-way handshake to zero.
> >
> > This is not a defined behavior according to the current=20
> > 802.11 standard.
> > Are you suggesting that we CAPWAP WG should specifically
> mandate that
> > in our CAPWAP protocol spec, e.g. something like "a CAPWAP
> compatible
> > AC MUST set KeyRSC to zero"? Otherwise, the problem still exists,
> > since not all AC implementation have to follow what you described.
> >
> > Or, are you planning to take this issue to TGm for 802.11 standard
> > revision? (since based on your description, there is essentially no
> > use of the KeyRSC).
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > Cheng Hong
> >
> >=20
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:32 AM=20
> > > To: T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i=20
> > > Considerations
> > >
> > > Charles, Peter,
> > >
> > > Below is an expansion of a snippet from a thread on this
> > topic that I
> > > sent to the list on July 25, 2006.  I think this will be=20
> helpful to
> > > understand why the exchange that Saranavan is requesting is not
> > > necessary.  In fact, there are several systems from several
> > > manufacturers in the field using precursor protocols to=20
> CAPWAP that
> > > are Wi-Fi certified for WPA2/802.11i operation using the
> > protocol as
> > > it is described below.
> > >
> > > BTW, this whole discussion is about the KeyRSC for the=20
> > group key, not
> > > the pairwise key.  This is so because the WTP and AC both
> know the
> > > initial sequence counter value for the pairwise key, since it has
> > > never been used to send a frame.   802.11i requires the
> first frame
> > > sent on a key to use the sequence counter value of 1.  See
> > 8.3.2.6 c)
> > > and
> > > 8.3.3.4.3 c) in 802.11i for this requirement.
> > >
> > > The same is not true of the group key, i.e., after the WTP begins
> > > operation, the AC will not know the value of the sequence
> > counter for=20
> > > the group key when it needs to complete the EAPOL-key
> > handshake with a
> > > newly associated STA.
> > > However, as you will see from the tutorial below, it is not
> > necessary
> > > for the AC and WTP to exchange any information about the
> group key
> > > KeyRSC for the protocol to operate as it is intended.
> > >
> > > 1. A value for the KeyRSC in the EAPOL-key frame is necessary to=20
> > > calculate the KeyMIC.
> > >
> > > 2. This value does not need to bear any specific
> > relationship to the
> > > RSC value maintained by the WTP.  A value of zero in the=20
> EAPOL-key
> > > frame for the group key will always work.
> > >
> > > 3. The client STA will use the value of KeyRSC received in the
> > > EAPOL-key frame to validate frame using the KeyMIC.=20
> > >
> > > 4. The client STA will also set its group key RSC to the value
> > > received in KeyRSC, say, zero.
> > >
> > > 5. The value in the client STA's RSC will be compared against the=20
> > > sequence number in subsequent received frames to identify replay
> > > attacks.  Any frame received with a sequence counter value
> > within the
> > > replay window will be checked to have a valid MIC.  If the=20
> > MIC is not
> > > valid, the frame is dropped.
> > >
> > > 6. For any frame that is determined not to be a replay
> attack frame
> > > and meets all other validity and authenticity requirements,=20
> > the client
> > > STA updates its RSC value to the sequence number in the received
> > > frame, if the value is greater than its current RSC value.
> > Only the
> > > AP can meet these criteria as the source of a frame=20
> received by the
> > > STA.
> > >
> > > 7. Please see item 6, immediately above, for the reason
> that the AC
> > > and WTP do not need to coordinate and exchange the RSC.=20
> > >
> > >
> > > The only possible attack mode is for the attacker to send
> frames to
> > > the client STA between the time of the EAPOL-key frame and
> > the first=20
> > > frame encrypted with the group key.
> > > During this time, the client will receive the frame and
> proceed to
> > > validate its MIC.  This is a potential attack against the STA=20
> > > resources.  But, the MIC validation is done in the STA's
> > > 802.11 chip and consumes no more resources than receiving
> any other
> > > frame.  Thus, the attack does not actually consume any STA=20
> > resources
> > > beyond those of receiving a frame.
> > >
> > > This attack is not unique to the use of the value zero for
> > the KeyRSC,
> > > either.  The same attack is available to an attacker at any other=20
> > > time, as well.  It is no more nor less effective at either time.
> > >
> > > For these reasons, the protocol is not in need of any changes to
> > > address the issue raised by Saranavan.=20
> > >
> > >  -Bob
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu]
> > > Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:37 AM=20
> > > To: Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > > Considerations=20
> > >
> > > This is a very interesting solution.  The AC selects the
> KeyRSC and
> > > performs the 4-way handshake.  The WTP sniffs the 4-way handshake
> > > traffic and grabs the KeyRSC value and uses it to=20
> > initialize its own
> > > counter.
> > >
> > > Pat/Bob: Is this how the Cisco implementation works?  I
> > have to agree
> > > with Saravanan that I've yet to see a technical=20
> description of how
> > > Cisco implements it.
> > >
> > > IMHO, this is somewhat hackish, and it would be cleaner to
> > have the AC
> > > generate the KeyRSC and include it in the AddMobile message=20
> > as Behcet
> > > suggests.
> > >
> > > --
> > > t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |
> www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
> > >
> > > On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think Saravanan has a point. We did a prototype
> > impelementation of=20
> > > the
> > > > protocol a year ago when it was still called LWAPP. The way
> > > we solved
> > > > this issue then was to let the WTP sniff on all CAPWAP data
> > > messages=20
> > > > from the AC and when message 3 of the 4-way handshake or
> > > message 1 of
> > > > the groupkey handshake was sent the WTP inserted the correct RSC
> > > before=20
> > > > sending it off to the supplicant. To avoid the sniffing on
> > > all CAPWAP
> > > > data messages we would need a mechanism with in CAPWAP to
> > > handle these=20
> > > > two messages.
> > > >
> > > > Peter Nilsson
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Saravanan Govindan
> > > [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com]
> > > > Sent: den 22 september 2006 11:03
> > > > To: Margaret Wasserman
> > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > > Considerations
> > > >
> > > > Hi Margaret,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for reviewing the discussion on this issue.
> > > >
> > > > The issue here is the working of IEEE 802.11i when the 802.11i
> > > > authenticator element is at the AC and the 802.11i crypto
> > element is
> > > at
> > > > the WTP. Particularly, it is for the 4-way handshake between=20
> > > > authenticator and supplicant.
> > > >
> > > > Now, the 4-way handshake requires knowing the value of
> > > KeyRSC sequence
> > > > counter. The KeyRSC helps both authenticator and supplicant=20
> > > keep track
> > > > of their exchanges. It serves to protect against threats by
> > > tracking
> > > > sequential frames. The KeyRSC is maintained at the at the
> > point of
> > > > encryption, i.e. just before transmission over the
> > wireless channel.
> > > >
> > > > In the case of CAPWAP, the 4-way handshake is between the AC=20
> > > > (authenticator) and the wireless station (supplicant).
> > > >
> > > > The problem arises, when the authenticator is at the AC and
> > > the crypto
> > > > element (together with KeyRSC) is at the WTP. This is a=20
> > > fairly common
> > > > design. Now in this case, the AC starts the 4-way
> handshake but it
> > > does
> > > > not know the value of the KeyRSC. The KeyRSC is maintained=20
> > > by the WTP.
> > > >
> > > > Based on this, the current CAPWAP specification does not
> > allow for a
> > > way
> > > > to conduct the 4-way handshake with the correct KeyRSC.=20
> > > >
> > > > The functionality I would like to see is a way for the
> > authenticator
> > > > (AC) to use the correct prevailing value of KeyRSC
> > > (maintained by the=20
> > > > WTP) in its 4-way handshake.
> > > >
> > > > One way to introduce this functionality in to CAPWAP is
> > to have part
> > > of
> > > > the 4-way handshake be sent from AC to WTP. This will allow=20
> > > the 4-way
> > > > handshake to use the correct value of the KeyRSC before
> > > being sent to
> > > > the wireless station.
> > > >
> > > > I hope this helps clarify my view on the issue.=20
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Saravanan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >=20
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:26 PM=20
> > > > To: Saravanan Govindan
> > > > Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > > Considerations
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi again,
> > > >
> > > > Okay, I am even more confused than I thought I was...=20
> > > >
> > > > Saravanan, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Sep 17, 2006, at 10:24 PM, Saravanan Govindan wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Pat,=20
> > > >>
> > > >> The issue here is about how 802.11i exchanges are done when
> > > >> authenticator is at the AC and crypto elements are at
> > the WTP. This=20
> > > is
> > > >> the requirement.
> > > >
> > > > And, in response, Pat Calhoun wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Sep 18, 2006, at 4:15 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:=20
> > > >> The current specification allows the authenticator to
> > > reside in the
> > > >> AC, while the data packet crypto elements in the WTP. This
> > > feature is=20
> > > >> already in the specification.
> > > >
> > > > Pat's message matches my reading of the specification.
> > > >
> > > > So, Saravanan, what functionality are you asking for=20
> that is not
> > > > already supported by the specification?  And why do you
> > think it is
> > > > necessary?  it will not be helpful to my understanding to
> > > re-send your=20
> > > > proposal or to cite the requirements document...  Please
> > summarize
> > > > what functionality you think is missing from the current
> > > specification
> > > > and why you think that functionality is necessary to=20
> support IEEE
> > > > 802.11i or any important use case.
> > > >
> > > > At some point, the chairs may need to make a consensus
> > call on this
> > > > issue, and I'd like to understand your view and make sure=20
> > > that it has
> > > > been clearly communicated to the WG before we ask the WG to
> > > decide on
> > > > this issue.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,=20
> > > > Margaret
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> _________________________________________________________________=20
> > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options,
> please visit:
> > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
<http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap>=20
> > > >
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> > > >
> _________________________________________________________________=20
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> please visit:
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<http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap>=20
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> > > >
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> > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> > >=20
> > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
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> > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:=20
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> > >
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> >
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D698360502-03102006>Now to=20
address technical portion of your comment:<BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D934515015-29092006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Again, your proposal does not eliminate any =
attack=20
  mechanism and does not add any functionality to the protocol, only =
cost and=20
  complexity.&nbsp; A replayed frame will be discarded by the MAC, using =
the=20
  normal duplicate frame detection mechanisms.&nbsp; See section=20
  </FONT></SPAN><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D934515015-29092006>8.3.3.3.2 of 802.11i (where the frame =
sequence number=20
  is part of the additional authenticated data) and section 9.2.9 of=20
  802.11-1999&nbsp;for the description of these functions.&nbsp; And =
PLEASE read=20
  802.11 and 802.11i before again asserting that this proposal is=20
  necessary.<BR><SPAN class=3D698360502-03102006>&nbsp;</SPAN><BR><SPAN=20
  class=3D698360502-03102006>[[Cheng Hong]]&nbsp;</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20
  class=3D934515015-29092006><SPAN class=3D698360502-03102006>The =
mechanism defined=20
  in 802.11i&nbsp;detects the replay frame if the frame contains a =
sequence=20
  number out of order. However, if the KeyRSC has been set to 0, it =
means the=20
  initial RSC at the STA is forced to be 0 when it joins the BSS. This =
makes the=20
  STA to take any received frame as a valid frame since the sequence is =
in=20
  order. So, if the attacker replay frames with sequence in order, the =
STA has=20
  no way to detect that, until a frame of higher sequence order is =
received=20
  (supposedly by the actual AP instead of another=20
  attacker).</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN =
class=3D934515015-29092006></SPAN><SPAN=20
  class=3D934515015-29092006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D934515015-29092006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D934515015-29092006><FONT =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2>As I said several emails ago, the ONLY =
effect of=20
  using zero as the value for the KeyRSC is that the 802.11 chipset in =
the STA=20
  (client) will have to receive the frame, attempt to decrypt it, and =
validate=20
  the MIC.&nbsp; This must be done for EVERY frame received, whether it =
is a=20
  replayed frame or not.&nbsp; This set of functions is performed in the =
802.11=20
  STA chipset and does not consume any additional resources of the =
STA.&nbsp;=20
  So, the attack, if it can even be characterized as an attack, is no =
more=20
  effective at DOSing the STA than sending it any other frame.<BR><SPAN=20
  class=3D698360502-03102006>&nbsp;</SPAN><BR><SPAN=20
  class=3D698360502-03102006>[[Cheng Hong]]&nbsp;&nbsp;As commented =
above, the=20
  risk of setting the KeyRSC to 0 is to allow those replay frames to =
pass 802.11=20
  chipset replay check procedures, and left the detection of the replay =
to=20
  higher layer, and it obviously poses higher DOS threats to the STA. =
Setting=20
  KeyRSC to a value closer to RSC will allow the replay being detected =
earlier,=20
  and reduces the possible DOS attack=20
  frames.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D934515015-29092006><FONT =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D698360502-03102006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV=
><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
  <P><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;-Bob<BR>&nbsp;</FONT> </P>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Cheng Hong=20
  [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, =
September 28,=20
  2006 5:34 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Bob O'Hara (boohara); Dorothy =
Stanley<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB);=20
  capwap@frascone.com; Saravanan Govindan<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: =
[Capwap] Issue=20
  43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Hi=20
  Bob,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>As=20
  Dorothy correctly pointed out below, setting the KeyRSC to a value =
closer to=20
  the current RSC would be better than setting it to a pre-defined value =
zero.=20
  </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>It=20
  is true that 802.11i and 802.1X do not specify what is the KeyRSC =
value to be=20
  used, since they are trying to provide us a tool to correctly =
synchronize the=20
  RSC using the Msg 3. By mandating the KeyRSC to zero, we are just =
disabling=20
  the tool. It is not wrong, but just deprives the system a designed=20
  function.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>As=20
  for the effectiveness of KeyRSC, setting it to a predefined value of 0 =
would=20
  pose a greater threat. In a simple example, if the RSC is currently =
1000, and=20
  we are mandating the KeyRSC to be always&nbsp;zero, the attacker =
basically can=20
  safely replay the last 1000 packets to the STA without being =
detected.&nbsp;If=20
  the KeyRSC can be set to a closer value of the current RSC, say, 900, =
the=20
  number of possible&nbsp;replayed packets can be reduced to 10 percent, =
100=20
  packets. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>Therefore, I would say, setting the KeyRSC value to zero does =
place a=20
  bigger threat. Is that how the cisco products implemented? Maybe you =
could=20
  share with us some other implementation/testing data to prove =
otherwise. Or,=20
  you have some other considerations that could defend the replay=20
  attack?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>Cheng Hong</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D990461300-29092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft>
    <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
    <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Bob O'Hara (boohara)=20
    [mailto:boohara@cisco.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 29, =
2006 5:21=20
    AM<BR><B>To:</B> Dorothy Stanley<BR><B>Cc:</B> Cheng Hong; Pat =
Calhoun=20
    (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB);=20
    capwap@frascone.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - =
Explanation=20
    for 802.11i Considerations<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D790061221-28092006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
    color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Dorothy,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D790061221-28092006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
    color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D790061221-28092006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
    color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The problem with this proposal is that it =
is no more=20
    effective than sending a value of zero for the KeyRSC.&nbsp;&nbsp;It =
doesn't=20
    eliminate any potential attacks.&nbsp; It doesn't add any=20
    functionality.&nbsp;&nbsp;However, it does&nbsp;add cost and =
complexity to=20
    the protocol.&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN></DIV><!-- Converted from =
text/plain format -->
    <P><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;-Bob<BR>&nbsp;</FONT> </P>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft>
    <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
    <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Dorothy Stanley=20
    [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September =
28,=20
    2006 1:17 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Bob O'Hara (boohara)<BR><B>Cc:</B> Cheng =
Hong;=20
    Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB); =

    capwap@frascone.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - =
Explanation=20
    for 802.11i Considerations<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
    <DIV></DIV>All,<BR><BR>Below is the text from 802.11REV-maD8.0 =
Clause 8.5.2,=20
    describing the Key RSC field.:<BR><BR><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: =
italic">"g)=20
    Key RSC. This field is 8 octets in length. It contains the receive =
sequence=20
    counter (RSC) for the</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">GTK being installed in IEEE 802.11. It =
is used in=20
    Message 3 of the 4-Way Handshake and</SPAN><BR=20
    style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: =
italic">Message 1 of the=20
    Group Key Handshake, where it is used to synchronize the IEEE 802.11 =

    replay</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">state. It may also be used in the =
Michael MIC=20
    Failure Report frame, to report the TSC field value of</SPAN><BR=20
    style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">the =
frame=20
    experiencing a MIC failure. It shall contain 0 in other messages. =
The Key=20
    RSC field gives</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">the current message number for the GTK, =
to allow=20
    a STA to identify replayed MPDUs. If the Key</SPAN><BR=20
    style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">RSC =
field value=20
    is less than 8 octets in length, the remaining octets shall be set =
to 0. The=20
    least significant</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">octet of the TSC or PN should be in the =
first=20
    octet of the Key RSC field."</SPAN><BR><BR>The intent of adding this =
value=20
    in message 3 was to immediately minimize the number of <BR>replayed =
frames=20
    that a STA would potentially process: "The Key RSC field =
gives<BR>the=20
    current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify =
replayed=20
    MPDUs."<BR>Setting the value to 0 in Msg 3 does not provide the =
current=20
    sequence counter (in most cases<BR>not even close) of the=20
    GTK..<BR><BR>Perhaps the WTP could periodically/frequently notify =
the AC of=20
    its current GTK sequence counter, and the<BR>AC would use the most =
recently=20
    received value in the message 3 sent to new STAs. The RSC =
value<BR>would not=20
    be&nbsp; up to date at all times, but would be closer than "0", not =
require=20
    an "in-the-critical-path<BR>message exchange between the AC and WTP, =
and=20
    still be close to the intended use of the =
field.<BR><BR>Dorothy<BR><BR>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 9/28/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Bob=20
    O'Hara (boohara)</B> &lt;<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:boohara@cisco.com">boohara@cisco.com</A>&gt; =
wrote:</SPAN>=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Please=20
      understand that 802.11i specifies no behavior in this area =
for<BR>the=20
      802.1X authenticator.&nbsp;&nbsp;Our choice to send a group key =
KeyRSC=20
      value<BR>of zero in the EAPOL-key frame requires no change to =
802.11i or=20
      to<BR>802.1X .&nbsp;&nbsp;It requires us to state this in the =
CAPWAP spec,=20
      if we want<BR>this behavior to be consistent across all=20
      implementations.<BR><BR>The problem with what Bechet and Saranavan =
are=20
      asking is that either of<BR>three different things are required: =
<BR>1:=20
      the WTP must communicate the group key TSC to the AC every time it =

      is<BR>updated, or<BR>2: the AC must request the current value of =
the group=20
      key TSC for the<BR>KeyRSC before constructing the EAPOL-key frame, =

      or<BR>3: the AC must send the KCK to the AC so&nbsp;&nbsp;that it =
can=20
      insert the KeyRSC<BR>value and also calculate the correct MIC, =
inserting=20
      that into the proper<BR>EAPOL-key frame.<BR><BR>The first item =
requires a=20
      tremendous amount of additional CAPWAP <BR>communication between =
WTP and=20
      AC, at least one new CAPWAP packet for<BR>every multicast frame =
sent by=20
      the WTP, if the packet is not<BR>acknowledged, or two new CAPWAP =
packets,=20
      if it is acknowledged.&nbsp;&nbsp;This is<BR>a very expensive =
addition to=20
      the protocol. <BR><BR>The second item requires new protocol =
between the AC=20
      and WTP during what<BR>can be a time critical portion of the =
802.11=20
      transition (handoff, roam)<BR>from one WTP to =
another.&nbsp;&nbsp;It also=20
      introduces a race condition that is <BR>not present in the =
protocol=20
      today.&nbsp;&nbsp;Once the value for the KeyRSC is<BR>sent from =
the WTP to=20
      the AC, it is possible that the WTP can send<BR>another multicast =
frame=20
      encrypted with the group key.&nbsp;&nbsp;This puts the<BR>value of =
the=20
      sequence counter out of sync with the value that will be =
<BR>shortly=20
      communicated to the client in the EAPOL-key frame from the =
AC.<BR>This=20
      will behave exactly the same as if a value of zero is sent in=20
      the<BR>EAPOL-key frame.<BR><BR>The third item requires a new =
architecture=20
      split that is not required in <BR>our objectives.&nbsp;&nbsp;The =
new split=20
      is not splitting the MAC, but splitting<BR>the=20
      authenticator.&nbsp;&nbsp;Placing the KCK in the WTP is also a=20
      potential<BR>reduction in the security of the overall WLAN system, =
since=20
      these<BR>devices are normally not in a secured wiring closet, but =
exposed=20
      and <BR>more easily compromised than the AC.<BR><BR>The simplest =
to=20
      implement, least expensive, and most secure option is to<BR>use =
the=20
      protocol as it is now specified and have the AC send a value =
of<BR>zero in=20
      the KeyRSC field of the EAPOL-key frame. =
<BR><BR>-Bob<BR><BR>-----Original=20
      Message-----<BR>From: Cheng Hong [mailto:<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com">Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com</=
A>]<BR>Sent:=20
      Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:50 PM<BR>To: Pat Calhoun =
(pacalhou); Bob=20
      O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; <BR>Peter Nilsson J =
(LI/EAB)<BR>Cc:=20
      <A =
href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com">capwap@frascone.com</A><BR>Subject:=20
      RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i =
Considerations<BR><BR>Hi=20
      Pat and all,<BR><BR>So, based on this, I would say that we have =
consensus=20
      that setting the <BR>correct KeyRSC is an issue for the CAPWAP =
protocol=20
      design.<BR><BR>So far, we have three option/solutions:<BR><BR>1) =
As=20
      proposed by Bob: Using a static value (0) for the =
KeyRSC.<BR><BR>2) As=20
      suggested by Behcet: AC communicate a correct KeyRSC to WTP =
<BR><BR>3) As=20
      suggested by Saravanana: Some exchange mechanism between WTP=20
      and<BR>AC<BR><BR>Among the three, the first option seems the =
easiest.=20
      However, it<BR>requires a mandated Authenticator behavior(in this =
case AC)=20
      that is not <BR>mandated by 802.11. Therefore, we have to specify =
that=20
      (e.g. as proposed<BR>by Bob: "We could include a note to the =
effect that=20
      the group KeyRSC<BR>should be zero in the EAPOL-key frame.") =
either in=20
      CAPWAP or 802.11,<BR>because otherwise there is no =
interoperability. For=20
      example, AC provided<BR>by another vendor does not have to set =
KeyRSC to 0=20
      to be compliant with<BR>CAPWAP and 802.11i.<BR><BR>Another =
implication is=20
      that we don't really understand the impact of <BR>mandating a =
static=20
      KeyRSC value. Although Bob provided an excellent<BR>analysis, I =
still have=20
      some doubts about the profoundness of the impact.<BR>If the KeyRSC =
value=20
      is as described of no use, why would it appear in<BR>the EAPOL =
frames in=20
      the first place? By mandating it to static value,<BR>what have we =
lost?=20
      Maybe some liaison letter to 802.1 or 802.11 could<BR>provide us a =
better=20
      understanding of the issue.<BR><BR>For the last two options, I =
think they=20
      are both within CAPWAP's scope. <BR>Further analysis could help us =
to=20
      decide which one&nbsp;&nbsp;is better (or<BR>someone could propose =
other=20
      solutions).<BR><BR>cheers<BR><BR>Cheng=20
      Hong<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original=20
      Message-----<BR>&gt; From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto: <A=20
      href=3D"mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com">pcalhoun@cisco.com</A>]<BR>&gt; =
Sent:=20
      Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:39 AM<BR>&gt; To: Cheng Hong; Bob =
O'Hara=20
      (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;<BR>&gt; Peter Nilsson J =
(LI/EAB)<BR>&gt; Cc:=20
      <A =
href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com">capwap@frascone.com</A><BR>&gt;=20
      Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i<BR>&gt;=20
      Considerations<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Bob's point is 802.11i works this =
way=20
      today. The AP (or in <BR>&gt; this case AC) can set the RSC to =
whatever=20
      value it wishes.<BR>&gt; Bob used zero (0) as an example. =
Implementations=20
      could use<BR>&gt; any other value, which would require some form=20
      of<BR>&gt; communication to the WTP, as suggested by Behcet.=20
      <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Pat Calhoun<BR>&gt; CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
      Unit<BR>&gt; Cisco Systems<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; &gt; From: Cheng Hong =
[mailto:<A=20
      href=3D"mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com">=20
      Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com</A>]<BR>&gt; &gt; Sent: Tuesday, =
September 26,=20
      2006 6:03 PM<BR>&gt; &gt; To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles =
Clancy;=20
      Peter Nilsson<BR>&gt; J (LI/EAB)<BR>&gt; &gt; Cc: <A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com">capwap@frascone.com</A><BR>&gt; &gt; =

      Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
      Considerations<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Hi Bob,<BR>&gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      If I understand your description below correct, you are proposing =
a=20
      <BR>&gt; &gt; solution (to the problem pointed out by<BR>&gt; &gt; =

      Saravanan) by mandating the behavior of the AC to always set =
the<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; KeyRSC in the 4-way handshake to zero.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt; This=20
      is not a defined behavior according to the current <BR>&gt; &gt; =
802.11=20
      standard.<BR>&gt; &gt; Are you suggesting that we CAPWAP WG should =

      specifically<BR>&gt; mandate that<BR>&gt; &gt; in our CAPWAP =
protocol=20
      spec, e.g. something like "a CAPWAP<BR>&gt; compatible<BR>&gt; =
&gt; AC=20
      MUST set KeyRSC to zero"? Otherwise, the problem still =
exists,<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; since not all AC implementation have to follow what you=20
      described.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Or, are you planning to take =
this=20
      issue to TGm for 802.11 standard<BR>&gt; &gt; revision? (since =
based on=20
      your description, there is essentially no<BR>&gt; &gt; use of the=20
      KeyRSC).<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; cheers<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt; Cheng=20
      Hong<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: Bob O'Hara =

      (boohara) [mailto:<A=20
      href=3D"mailto:boohara@cisco.com">boohara@cisco.com</A>]<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:32 AM <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: =
T.=20
      Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: <A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com">capwap@frascone.com</A><BR>&gt; &gt; =

      &gt; Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i =
<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; Considerations<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Charles,=20
      Peter,<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Below is an expansion =
of a=20
      snippet from a thread on this<BR>&gt; &gt; topic that I<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      sent to the list on July 25, 2006.&nbsp;&nbsp;I think this will be =

      <BR>&gt; helpful to<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; understand why the exchange =
that=20
      Saranavan is requesting is not<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
necessary.&nbsp;&nbsp;In=20
      fact, there are several systems from several<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;=20
      manufacturers in the field using precursor protocols to <BR>&gt; =
CAPWAP=20
      that<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; are Wi-Fi certified for WPA2/802.11i =
operation=20
      using the<BR>&gt; &gt; protocol as<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; it is =
described=20
      below.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; BTW, this whole =
discussion is=20
      about the KeyRSC for the <BR>&gt; &gt; group key, not<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      the pairwise key.&nbsp;&nbsp;This is so because the WTP and AC=20
      both<BR>&gt; know the<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; initial sequence counter =
value for=20
      the pairwise key, since it has<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; never been used =
to send a=20
      frame.&nbsp;&nbsp; 802.11i requires the<BR>&gt; first =
frame<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; sent on a key to use the sequence counter value of=20
      1.&nbsp;&nbsp;See<BR>&gt; &gt; <A =
href=3D"http://8.3.2.6">8.3.2.6</A>=20
      c)<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; and<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; 8.3.3.4.3 c) in 802.11i =
for=20
      this requirement.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; The same is =
not true=20
      of the group key, i.e., after the WTP begins<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
operation,=20
      the AC will not know the value of the sequence<BR>&gt; &gt; =
counter for=20
      <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; the group key when it needs to complete the=20
      EAPOL-key<BR>&gt; &gt; handshake with a<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; newly =
associated=20
      STA.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; However, as you will see from the tutorial =
below,=20
      it is not<BR>&gt; &gt; necessary<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; for the AC and =
WTP to=20
      exchange any information about the<BR>&gt; group key<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      KeyRSC for the protocol to operate as it is intended.<BR>&gt; &gt; =

      &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; 1. A value for the KeyRSC in the EAPOL-key =
frame is=20
      necessary to <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; calculate the KeyMIC.<BR>&gt; &gt; =

      &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; 2. This value does not need to bear any=20
      specific<BR>&gt; &gt; relationship to the<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; RSC =
value=20
      maintained by the WTP.&nbsp;&nbsp;A value of zero in the <BR>&gt;=20
      EAPOL-key<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; frame for the group key will always=20
      work.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; 3. The client STA will =
use the=20
      value of KeyRSC received in the<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; EAPOL-key frame =
to=20
      validate frame using the KeyMIC. <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt; 4.=20
      The client STA will also set its group key RSC to the =
value<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; received in KeyRSC, say, zero.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt; 5.=20
      The value in the client STA's RSC will be compared against the =
<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; sequence number in subsequent received frames to =
identify=20
      replay<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; attacks.&nbsp;&nbsp;Any frame received =
with a=20
      sequence counter value<BR>&gt; &gt; within the<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
replay=20
      window will be checked to have a valid MIC.&nbsp;&nbsp;If the =
<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; MIC is not<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; valid, the frame is =
dropped.<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; 6. For any frame that is determined =
not to be=20
      a replay<BR>&gt; attack frame<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; and meets all =
other=20
      validity and authenticity requirements, <BR>&gt; &gt; the =
client<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; STA updates its RSC value to the sequence number in the=20
      received<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; frame, if the value is greater than its =
current=20
      RSC value.<BR>&gt; &gt; Only the<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; AP can meet =
these=20
      criteria as the source of a frame <BR>&gt; received by the<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt; STA.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; 7. Please see item =
6,=20
      immediately above, for the reason<BR>&gt; that the AC<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      and WTP do not need to coordinate and exchange the RSC. <BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; The only possible attack =
mode is=20
      for the attacker to send<BR>&gt; frames to<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; the =
client=20
      STA between the time of the EAPOL-key frame and<BR>&gt; &gt; the =
first=20
      <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; frame encrypted with the group key.<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      During this time, the client will receive the frame and<BR>&gt; =
proceed=20
      to<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; validate its MIC.&nbsp;&nbsp;This is a =
potential=20
      attack against the STA <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
resources.&nbsp;&nbsp;But, the=20
      MIC validation is done in the STA's<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; 802.11 chip =
and=20
      consumes no more resources than receiving<BR>&gt; any =
other<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; frame.&nbsp;&nbsp;Thus, the attack does not actually consume =
any STA=20
      <BR>&gt; &gt; resources<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; beyond those of =
receiving a=20
      frame.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; This attack is not =
unique to=20
      the use of the value zero for<BR>&gt; &gt; the KeyRSC,<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      either.&nbsp;&nbsp;The same attack is available to an attacker at =
any=20
      other <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; time, as well.&nbsp;&nbsp;It is no more =
nor less=20
      effective at either time.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; For =
these=20
      reasons, the protocol is not in need of any changes to<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      address the issue raised by Saranavan. <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;-Bob<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original =
Message-----<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto:<A=20
      href=3D"mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu">clancy@cs.umd.edu</A>]<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:37 AM <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: =
Peter=20
      Nilsson J (LI/EAB)<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: <A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com">capwap@frascone.com</A><BR>&gt; &gt; =

      &gt; Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for =
802.11i<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; Considerations <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; This is a =
very=20
      interesting solution.&nbsp;&nbsp;The AC selects the<BR>&gt; KeyRSC =

      and<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; performs the 4-way handshake.&nbsp;&nbsp;The =
WTP=20
      sniffs the 4-way handshake<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; traffic and grabs the =
KeyRSC=20
      value and uses it to <BR>&gt; &gt; initialize its own<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      counter.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pat/Bob: Is this how =
the=20
      Cisco implementation works?&nbsp;&nbsp;I<BR>&gt; &gt; have to=20
      agree<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; with Saravanan that I've yet to see a =
technical=20
      <BR>&gt; description of how<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cisco implements =
it.<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; IMHO, this is somewhat hackish, and it =
would=20
      be cleaner to<BR>&gt; &gt; have the AC<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; generate =
the=20
      KeyRSC and include it in the AddMobile message <BR>&gt; &gt; as=20
      Behcet<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; suggests.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      --<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; t. charles clancy, =
ph.d.&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;<A=20
      href=3D"mailto:tcc@umd.edu">tcc@umd.edu</A>&nbsp;&nbsp;|<BR>&gt; =
<A=20
      =
href=3D"http://www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy">www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy</A><BR>&gt;=
=20
      &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Peter Nilsson J =
(LI/EAB)=20
      wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I think Saravanan =
has a=20
      point. We did a prototype<BR>&gt; &gt; impelementation of <BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt; the<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; protocol a year ago when it was =
still=20
      called LWAPP. The way<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; we solved<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      this issue then was to let the WTP sniff on all CAPWAP =
data<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; messages <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; from the AC and when message =
3 of=20
      the 4-way handshake or<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; message 1 of<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt; the groupkey handshake was sent the WTP inserted the correct=20
      RSC<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; before <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; sending it =
off to the=20
      supplicant. To avoid the sniffing on<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; all =
CAPWAP<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; &gt; data messages we would need a mechanism with in =
CAPWAP=20
      to<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; handle these <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; two=20
      messages.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Peter=20
      Nilsson<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; =
-----Original=20
      Message-----<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From: Saravanan =
Govindan<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; [mailto:<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com">Saravanan.Govindan@sg=
.panasonic.com</A>]<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: den 22 september 2006 11:03<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      To: Margaret Wasserman<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: <A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com">capwap@frascone.com</A><BR>&gt; &gt; =

      &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for =
802.11i<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; Considerations<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt; Hi=20
      Margaret,<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Thank you =
for=20
      reviewing the discussion on this issue.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; &gt; The issue here is the working of IEEE 802.11i when =
the=20
      802.11i<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; authenticator element is at the AC =
and the=20
      802.11i crypto<BR>&gt; &gt; element is<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
at<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; the WTP. Particularly, it is for the 4-way handshake =
between=20
      <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; authenticator and supplicant.<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Now, the 4-way handshake requires =
knowing the=20
      value of<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; KeyRSC sequence<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; =
counter.=20
      The KeyRSC helps both authenticator and supplicant <BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt; keep=20
      track<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; of their exchanges. It serves to =
protect=20
      against threats by<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; tracking<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      sequential frames. The KeyRSC is maintained at the at the<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
      point of<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; encryption, i.e. just before =
transmission=20
      over the<BR>&gt; &gt; wireless channel.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; &gt; In the case of CAPWAP, the 4-way handshake is =
between the=20
      AC <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (authenticator) and the wireless =
station=20
      (supplicant).<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The =
problem=20
      arises, when the authenticator is at the AC and<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
the=20
      crypto<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; element (together with KeyRSC) is at =
the=20
      WTP. This is a <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; fairly common<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      design. Now in this case, the AC starts the 4-way<BR>&gt; =
handshake but=20
      it<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; does<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; not know the =
value of the=20
      KeyRSC. The KeyRSC is maintained <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; by the =
WTP.<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Based on this, the current =
CAPWAP=20
      specification does not<BR>&gt; &gt; allow for a<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;=20
      way<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to conduct the 4-way handshake with the =
correct=20
      KeyRSC. <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The =
functionality I=20
      would like to see is a way for the<BR>&gt; &gt; =
authenticator<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; (AC) to use the correct prevailing value of =
KeyRSC<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; (maintained by the <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; WTP) in its 4-way=20
      handshake.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; One way =
to=20
      introduce this functionality in to CAPWAP is<BR>&gt; &gt; to have=20
      part<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; of<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the 4-way =
handshake be=20
      sent from AC to WTP. This will allow <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; the =
4-way<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; &gt; handshake to use the correct value of the KeyRSC=20
      before<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; being sent to<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the =
wireless=20
      station.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I hope this =
helps=20
      clarify my view on the issue. <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt; Cheers,<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=20
      Saravanan<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com">margaret@thingmagic.com</A>]<BR>&=
gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:26 PM <BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; To: Saravanan Govindan<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: Pat =
Calhoun=20
      (pacalhou); <A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com">capwap@frascone.com</A><BR>&gt; &gt; =

      &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for =
802.11i<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; Considerations<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;=20
      &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Hi =
again,<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Okay, I am even more confused =
than I=20
      thought I was... <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; =
Saravanan,=20
      you wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Sep =
17, 2006,=20
      at 10:24 PM, Saravanan Govindan wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; &gt;&gt; Pat, <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;&gt;=20
      The issue here is about how 802.11i exchanges are done =
when<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; &gt;&gt; authenticator is at the AC and crypto elements are=20
      at<BR>&gt; &gt; the WTP. This <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; is<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt;&gt; the requirement.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      And, in response, Pat Calhoun wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; On Sep 18, 2006, at 4:15 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) =
wrote:=20
      <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; The current specification allows the=20
      authenticator to<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; reside in the<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =

      &gt;&gt; AC, while the data packet crypto elements in the WTP.=20
      This<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; feature is <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; =
already in=20
      the specification.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; =
Pat's=20
      message matches my reading of the specification.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =

      &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So, Saravanan, what functionality are =
you=20
      asking for <BR>&gt; that is not<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; already =
supported=20
      by the specification?&nbsp;&nbsp;And why do you<BR>&gt; &gt; think =
it=20
      is<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; necessary?&nbsp;&nbsp;it will not be =
helpful to=20
      my understanding to<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; re-send your <BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      proposal or to cite the requirements =
document...&nbsp;&nbsp;Please<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; summarize<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; what functionality you think =
is=20
      missing from the current<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; specification<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; and why you think that functionality is necessary to <BR>&gt; =
support=20
      IEEE<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 802.11i or any important use =
case.<BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; At some point, the chairs =
may need=20
      to make a consensus<BR>&gt; &gt; call on this<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
      issue, and I'd like to understand your view and make sure <BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
      &gt; that it has<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; been clearly communicated =
to the=20
      WG before we ask the WG to<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; decide on<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
      &gt; this issue.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; =
Thanks,=20
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&gt; &gt;=20
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&gt;=20
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From: "Charles Clancy" <clancy@cs.umd.edu>
To: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" <boohara@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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Bob,

>> 1. Set the KeyRSC to a static value.  This increases the risk of replay
>> attacks of multicast/broadcast packets encrypted with the group key
>> between the time the client authenticates and when the first legitimate
>> group key-encrypted packet is transmitted.
>
> Bob>> I don't believe that this increases the risk of replay attack.
> The risk of attack is related to the presence of an attacker and the
> time between the 4-way handshake and the next multicast frame
> transmitted by the AP.  As long as the possibility exists that the
> KeyRSC does not match the actual TSC, this attack is feasible.
>
> Bob>> It should be noted that "replay" of encrypted/MICed multicast
> frames is inherent in the design of an 802.11 WLAN that has more than
> one AP in it.  Because the load and availability of transmit
> opportunities varies with time, location, and channel, it is likely that
> the STA will encounter a situation where it has received one or more
> multicast frames from one AP that it will receive again from a second AP
> that it has just roamed to.  The multicast frames at the second AP have
> been delayed due to that AP having fewer opportunities to transmit,
> resulting in longer queuing delays for the first transmission of those
> multicast frames.

I'm trying to distinguish between replay attacks and *useful* replay
attacks.  Just because something can be replayed doesn't mean it's useful
for launching some sort of attack.  The probability of a useful replay
attack increases with the number of available packets that can be
replayed.  Setting RSC=0 increases the number of packets available to be
replayed.

For all practical purposes, we're talking about quite the corner case. 
Any sensitive, multicast protocol running over the wireless link that
would be vulnerable to replay would have it's own security mechanism to
prevent such attacks.  If such a protocol was attacked, I would personally
blame the protocol rather than CAPWAP's handling of the RSC.

>> 3. Have the WTP request the GTK prior to initiating the 4-way handshake.
>
> Bob>> The WTP already has the GTK, if it has any STAs associated.  There
> is no need for it to request it from the AC.  I am not sure what this
> would accomplish.

Sorry... I mistyped.  I meant have the *AC* request the *RSC*.

> Bob>> The STA cannot transmit on the GTK, this is not allowed by 802.11.

Good.  Then that's not a problem.

If the consensus is to use RSC=0, then I think a disclaimer statement
should be added to the security considerations section about the replay
possibility in multicast protocols.  Overall this is probably sufficient.

-- 
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  <>  tcc@umd.edu  <>  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy

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Hi Charles,

<chair hat=off>

> If the consensus is to use RSC=0, then I think a disclaimer statement
> should be added to the security considerations section about the  
> replay
> possibility in multicast protocols.  Overall this is probably  
> sufficient.

This does seem like the simplest approach.  So, if there is no  
objection from our security advisors
(you and Scott Kelly), then I'm for it.

</chair>

Margaret

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I agree with Charles - a note in the security considerations is appropriate.

Margaret Wasserman wrote:
> Hi Charles,
> 
> <chair hat=off>
> 
>> If the consensus is to use RSC=0, then I think a disclaimer statement
>> should be added to the security considerations section about the  
>> replay
>> possibility in multicast protocols.  Overall this is probably  
>> sufficient.
> 
> This does seem like the simplest approach.  So, if there is no  
> objection from our security advisors
> (you and Scott Kelly), then I'm for it.
> 
> </chair>
> 
> Margaret
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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Just re-reading this thread, and I realized I still have a few 
questions, so I want to get my foot in the door briefly while I run down 
answers. Just want to make sure to give this an appropriately diligent 
response - please indulge me. I will aim to resolve my questions today.

Scott G Kelly wrote:
> I agree with Charles - a note in the security considerations is appropriate.
> 
> Margaret Wasserman wrote:
>> Hi Charles,
>>
>> <chair hat=off>
>>
>>> If the consensus is to use RSC=0, then I think a disclaimer statement
>>> should be added to the security considerations section about the  
>>> replay
>>> possibility in multicast protocols.  Overall this is probably  
>>> sufficient.
>> This does seem like the simplest approach.  So, if there is no  
>> objection from our security advisors
>> (you and Scott Kelly), then I'm for it.
>>
>> </chair>
>>
>> Margaret
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
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Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 08:39:33 -0700
From: "Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>
To: "Michael Montemurro" <montemurro.michael@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 85/ wasRe: Issue with state
	machine
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All,

Issue 85 was closed in -02 and then re-opened to address the following
comment:

I just noticed that the latest specification's state machine requires that
in order to perform a firmware download, the state must transition from the
join to configure to image data. This is a departure from the original
protocol, and I believe introduces some challenges. One of the benefits of
bypassing the configure state is that it maximizes interoperability across
version numbers. If we require the configure state to be run, then we need
to ensure that the configure message does not introduce any new message
elements that can create a backward compatiblity issue. However, the way the
protocol used to be only required that the Join state have to deal with
backward compatibility.

I'd like to see this changed back to the old way. Sorry I missed this in my
reviews.

The -02 specification has state transitions from Join to Configure to Image
data, with corresponding text descriptions.
This is unchanged from the -01  specification. The -00 specification had a
transition from
DTLS-Complete to Configure and to Image Data.

The current text description includes:

   Join to Configure (g): This state transition is used by the WTP and
      the AC to exchange configuration information.

      WTP: The WTP enters the Configure state when it successfully
         completes the Join operation.  If it determines that its
         version number and the version number advertised by the AC are
         the same, the WTP transmits the Configuration Status message
         (see Section 8.2) to the AC with a snapshot of its current
         configuration.  The WTP also starts the ResponseTimeout timer
         (see ).  (Section 4.5) If the version numbers are not the same,
         the WTP will immediately transition to Image Data state (see
         transition (i)).

and for the AC:

      AC: This state transition occurs immediately after the AC
         transmits the Join Response message to the WTP.  If the AC
         receives the Configuration Status message from the WTP, the AC
         must transmit a Configuration Status Response message(see
         Section 8.3) to the WTP, and may include specific message
         elements to override the WTP's configuration.  If the AC
         instead receives the Image Data Request from the WTP, it
         immediately transitions to the Image Data state (see transition
         (i)).

In the current specification, if the WTP received a Discovery Response
message from the AC, it has the AC descriptor data, including the
AC Hardware and Software version numbers, and does not need
to exchange configuration messages to obtain AC HW & SW version info.

If the WTP does not execute the Discovery exchange, then it will
need to obtain the data.

Proposed Resolution:  Insert the following text at the end of 6.2 "Join
Response",
so that in all cases, the Configuration messages are not sent:

"The following message element MUST be included in the Join Response
message:

- AC Descriptor, see Section 4.4.1"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Related observation 1: The current text states that
" If it [WTP] determines that its
         version number and the version number advertised by the AC are
         the same, the WTP transmits the Configuration Status message
         (see Section 8.2) to the AC with a snapshot of its current
         configuration."

This can't be correct - multiple vendors will have different version
numbering
schemes.

Proposed change:

from

If it determines that its
         version number and the version number advertised by the AC are
         the same, the WTP transmits the Configuration Status message
         (see Section 8.2) to the AC with a snapshot of its current
         configuration.

to

If it determines that its
         version number and the version number advertised by the AC are
         compatible, the WTP transmits the Configuration Status message
         (see Section 8.2) to the AC with a snapshot of its current
         configuration.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Related observation 2: The current specification provides a means for the
WTP to
initiate the move to Image Data from the Configure State, but does not
provide the AC with a similar capability. The current text expects that
the WTP has knowledge of all of the AC versions that it can interoperate
with.
How the WTP would make this determination is of course out of scope.
It is also likely that the AC would have similar knowledge, in one central
location.

Proposed Change:

Insert the following sentence as indicated:

      AC: This state transition occurs immediately after the AC
         transmits the Join Response message to the WTP.  If the AC
         receives the Configuration Status message from the WTP, the AC
         must transmit a Configuration Status Response message(see
         Section 8.3) to the WTP, and may include specific message
         elements to override the WTP's configuration.  If the AC
         instead receives the Image Data Request from the WTP, it
         immediately transitions to the Image Data state (see transition
         (i)). If the AC determines that a new firmware image should be
         installed on the WTP, the AC initiates a firmware download by
sending an Image Data Request
         Message with an Initiate Download message element to the WTP.

Comments welcome,

Thanks,

Dorothy

On 6/30/06, Michael Montemurro <montemurro.michael@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Pat,
>
> I re-openned issue 85 to deal with this issue.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mike
>
>
> On 6/27/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> >  I just noticed that the latest specification's state machine requires
> > that in order to perform a firmware download, the state must transition from
> > the join to configure to image data. This is a departure from the original
> > protocol, and I believe introduces some challenges. One of the benefits of
> > bypassing the configure state is that it maximizes interoperability across
> > version numbers. If we require the configure state to be run, then we need
> > to ensure that the configure message does not introduce any new message
> > elements that can create a backward compatiblity issue. However, the way the
> > protocol used to be only required that the Join state have to deal with
> > backward compatibility.
> >
> > I'd like to see this changed back to the old way. Sorry I missed this in
> > my reviews.
> >
> >
> > Pat Calhoun
> > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> > Cisco Systems
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
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>

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All,<br>
<br>
Issue 85 was closed in -02 and then re-opened to address the following comment:<br>
<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;" class="e" id="q_10c256297a53dcc1_3"><div><span><font face="Arial" size="2">I just noticed that the latest
specification's state machine requires that in order to perform a
firmware download, the state must transition from the join to configure
to image data. This is a departure from the original protocol, and I
believe introduces some challenges. One of the benefits of bypassing
the configure state is that it maximizes interoperability across
version numbers. If we require the configure state to be run, then we
need to ensure that the configure message does not introduce any new
message elements that can create a backward compatiblity issue.
However, the way the protocol used to be only required that the Join
state have to deal with backward compatibility.
</font></span></div>
<div><span></span>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" size="2">I'd like to see this changed back to the old way. Sorry I missed this in my reviews.</font></span></div></span><br>
The -02 specification has state transitions from Join to Configure to Image data, with corresponding text descriptions.<br>
This is unchanged from the -01&nbsp; specification. The -00 specification had a transition from<br>
DTLS-Complete to Configure and to Image Data.<br>
<br>
The current text description includes:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Join to Configure (g): This state transition is used by the WTP and<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the AC to exchange configuration information.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WTP: The WTP enters the Configure state when it successfully<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; completes the Join operation.&nbsp; If it determines that its<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; version number and the version number advertised by the AC are<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the same, the WTP transmits the Configuration Status message<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (see Section 8.2) to the AC with a snapshot of its current<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; configuration.&nbsp; The WTP also starts the ResponseTimeout timer<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (see ).&nbsp; (Section 4.5) If the version numbers are not the same,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the WTP will immediately transition to Image Data state (see<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; transition (i)).<span style="text-decoration: underline;"><br>
<br>
</span>and for the AC:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; AC: This state transition occurs immediately after the AC<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; transmits the Join Response message to the WTP.&nbsp; If the AC<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; receives the Configuration Status message from the WTP, the AC<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; must transmit a Configuration Status Response message(see<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Section 8.3) to the WTP, and may include specific message<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; elements to override the WTP's configuration.&nbsp; If the AC<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; instead receives the Image Data Request from the WTP, it<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; immediately transitions to the Image Data state (see transition<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (i)).<span style="text-decoration: underline;"><br>
<br>
</span>In the current specification, if the WTP received a Discovery Response<br>
message from the AC, it has the AC descriptor data, including the<br>
AC Hardware and Software version numbers, and does not need<br>
to exchange configuration messages to obtain AC HW &amp; SW version info.<br>
<br>
If the WTP does not execute the Discovery exchange, then it will <br>
need to obtain the data. <br>
<br>
Proposed Resolution:&nbsp; Insert the following text at the end of 6.2 &quot;Join Response&quot;,<br>
so that in all cases, the Configuration messages are not sent:<br>
<br>
&quot;The following message element MUST be included in the Join Response message:<br>
<br>
- AC Descriptor, see Section 4.4.1&quot;<br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Related observation 1: The current text states that<br>
&quot; If it [WTP] determines that its<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; version number and the version number advertised by the AC are<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span style="font-weight: bold;"> the same</span>, the WTP transmits the Configuration Status message<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (see Section 8.2) to the AC with a snapshot of its current<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; configuration.&quot;<br>
<br>
This can't be correct - multiple vendors will have different version numbering<br>
schemes. <br>
<br>
Proposed change:<br>
<br>
from<br>
<br>
 If it determines that its<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; version number and the version number advertised by the AC are<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span style="font-weight: bold;"> the same</span>, the WTP transmits the Configuration Status message<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (see Section 8.2) to the AC with a snapshot of its current<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; configuration.<br>
<br>
to<br>
<br>
 If it determines that its<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; version number and the version number advertised by the AC are<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <span style="font-weight: bold;">compatible</span>, the WTP transmits the Configuration Status message<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (see Section 8.2) to the AC with a snapshot of its current<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; configuration.<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Related observation 2: The current specification provides a means for the WTP to<br>
initiate the move to Image Data from the Configure State, but does not<br>
provide the AC with a similar capability. The current text expects that<br>
the WTP has knowledge of all of the AC versions that it can interoperate with.<br>
How the WTP would make this determination is of course out of scope. <br>
It is also likely that the AC would have similar knowledge, in one central<br>
location. <br>
<br>
Proposed Change:<br>
<br>
Insert the following sentence as indicated:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; AC: This state transition occurs immediately after the AC<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; transmits the Join Response message to the WTP.&nbsp; If the AC<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; receives the Configuration Status message from the WTP, the AC<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; must transmit a Configuration Status Response message(see<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Section 8.3) to the WTP, and may include specific message<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; elements to override the WTP's configuration.&nbsp; If the AC<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; instead receives the Image Data Request from the WTP, it<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; immediately transitions to the Image Data state (see transition<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (i)). <span style="text-decoration: underline;">If the AC determines that a new firmware image should be</span><br style="text-decoration: underline;">
<span style="text-decoration: underline;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
installed on the WTP, the AC initiates a firmware download by sending
an Image Data Request </span><br style="text-decoration: underline;">
<span style="text-decoration: underline;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Message with an Initiate Download message element to the WTP.</span><br>
<br>
Comments welcome,<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Dorothy<br>
<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 6/30/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Michael Montemurro</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com">montemurro.michael@gmail.com
</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div>Pat,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I re-openned issue <span id="st" name="st" class="st">85</span> to deal with this issue.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Mike<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
<div><div><span class="e" id="q_10c256297a53dcc1_1"><span class="gmail_quote">On 6/27/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
pcalhoun@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
</span></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><span class="e" id="q_10c256297a53dcc1_3">
<div>
<div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" size="2">I just noticed that the latest
specification's state machine requires that in order to perform a
firmware download, the state must transition from the join to configure
to image data. This is a departure from the original protocol, and I
believe introduces some challenges. One of the benefits of bypassing
the configure state is that it maximizes interoperability across
version numbers. If we require the configure state to be run, then we
need to ensure that the configure message does not introduce any new
message elements that can create a backward compatiblity issue.
However, the way the protocol used to be only required that the Join
state have to deal with backward compatibility.
</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" size="2"></font></span>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" size="2">I'd like to see this changed back to the old way. Sorry I missed this in my reviews.</font></span></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<p align="left"><font size="2">Pat Calhoun<br>CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit<br>Cisco Systems</font></p>
<div>&nbsp;</div></div></div><br></span></div>_________________________________________________________________<br>To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<br><a href="http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">

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Charles said:
If the consensus is to use RSC=0, then I think a disclaimer statement
should be added to the security considerations section about the replay
possibility in multicast protocols.  Overall this is probably
sufficient.


Bob>> I agree.

 -Bob
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Bob, all,

Comments inline.

Thanks,

Dorothy

On 9/29/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) <boohara@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>
> Again, your proposal does not eliminate any attack mechanism and does not
> add any functionality to the protocol, only cost and complexity.  A repla=
yed
> frame will be discarded by the MAC, using the normal duplicate frame
> detection mechanisms.  See section 8.3.3.3.2 of 802.11i (where the frame
> sequence number is part of the additional authenticated data) and section
> 9.2.9 of 802.11-1999 for the description of these functions.  And PLEASE
> read 802.11 and 802.11i before again asserting that this proposal is
> necessary.
>

In Section 8.3.3.3.2, the AAD construction for CCMP  includes the frame
sequence control field =96 and the sequence number,
bits 4-15 of the frame equence control field - is masked to 0 in the AAD; s=
o
that only the fragment number is protected.

The TKIP MIC protects neither the fragment number nor the sequence number
of  the 802.11 frame sequence control field, as the TKIP MIC
is MSDU based.

In 9.2.9, Duplicate detection and recovery, the text indicates that a STA
may omit
broadcast/multicast frame data from its duplicate detection cache; if bc/mc
data is not included, then normal
duplicate frame detection will not apply.

 As I said several emails ago, the ONLY effect of using zero as the value
for the KeyRSC is that the 802.11 chipset in the STA (client) will have to
receive the frame, attempt to decrypt it, and validate the MIC.  This must
be done for EVERY frame received, whether it is a replayed frame or not.
This set of functions is performed in the 802.11 STA chipset and does not
consume any additional resources of the STA.  So, the attack, if it can eve=
n
be characterized as an attack, is no more effective at DOSing the STA than
sending it any other frame.

The MIC calculation, and encrpt/decrypt is typically performed in hardware
in the chipset for CCMP.
However, the TKIP MIC calculation is typically performed in the driver, in
software.

If a STA does not have the proper RSC value, there is a "window of
vulnerability" before it receives
the correct value, during
which the STA can receive and process replayed  bc/mc frames. The magnitude
of the DOS aspect of this
depends on the STA crypto implementation - hw/ccmp - virtually no impact or
sw/tkip-some small impact.
The larger issue is that the replay protection mechanism guarrantees
provided by 802.11i are lost.

>  -Bob
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:34 PM
> *To:* Bob O'Hara (boohara); Dorothy Stanley
> *Cc:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)=
;
> capwap@frascone.com; Saravanan Govindan
> *Subject:* RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
>
>  Hi Bob,
>
> As Dorothy correctly pointed out below, setting the KeyRSC to a value
> closer to the current RSC would be better than setting it to a pre-define=
d
> value zero.
>
> It is true that 802.11i and 802.1X do not specify what is the KeyRSC valu=
e
> to be used, since they are trying to provide us a tool to correctly
> synchronize the RSC using the Msg 3. By mandating the KeyRSC to zero, we =
are
> just disabling the tool. It is not wrong, but just deprives the system a
> designed function.
>
> As for the effectiveness of KeyRSC, setting it to a predefined value of 0
> would pose a greater threat. In a simple example, if the RSC is currently
> 1000, and we are mandating the KeyRSC to be always zero, the attacker
> basically can safely replay the last 1000 packets to the STA without bein=
g
> detected. If the KeyRSC can be set to a closer value of the current RSC,
> say, 900, the number of possible replayed packets can be reduced to 10
> percent, 100 packets.
>
> Therefore, I would say, setting the KeyRSC value to zero does place a
> bigger threat. Is that how the cisco products implemented? Maybe you coul=
d
> share with us some other implementation/testing data to prove otherwise. =
Or,
> you have some other considerations that could defend the replay attack?
>
> cheers
>
> Cheng Hong
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, September 29, 2006 5:21 AM
> *To:* Dorothy Stanley
> *Cc:* Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsso=
n
> J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com
> *Subject:* RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
>
>  Dorothy,
>
> The problem with this proposal is that it is no more effective than
> sending a value of zero for the KeyRSC.  It doesn't eliminate any potenti=
al
> attacks.  It doesn't add any functionality.  However, it does add cost an=
d
> complexity to the protocol.
>
>  -Bob
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:17 PM
> *To:* Bob O'Hara (boohara)
> *Cc:* Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsso=
n
> J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
>
> All,
>
> Below is the text from 802.11REV-maD8.0 Clause 8.5.2, describing the Key
> RSC field.:
>
> "g) Key RSC. This field is 8 octets in length. It contains the receive
> sequence counter (RSC) for the
> GTK being installed in IEEE 802.11. It is used in Message 3 of the 4-Way
> Handshake and
> Message 1 of the Group Key Handshake, where it is used to synchronize the
> IEEE 802.11 replay
> state. It may also be used in the Michael MIC Failure Report frame, to
> report the TSC field value of
> the frame experiencing a MIC failure. It shall contain 0 in other
> messages. The Key RSC field gives
> the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify
> replayed MPDUs. If the Key
> RSC field value is less than 8 octets in length, the remaining octets
> shall be set to 0. The least significant
> octet of the TSC or PN should be in the first octet of the Key RSC field.=
"
>
> The intent of adding this value in message 3 was to immediately minimize
> the number of
> replayed frames that a STA would potentially process: "The Key RSC field
> gives
> the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify
> replayed MPDUs."
> Setting the value to 0 in Msg 3 does not provide the current sequence
> counter (in most cases
> not even close) of the GTK..
>
> Perhaps the WTP could periodically/frequently notify the AC of its curren=
t
> GTK sequence counter, and the
> AC would use the most recently received value in the message 3 sent to ne=
w
> STAs. The RSC value
> would not be  up to date at all times, but would be closer than "0", not
> require an "in-the-critical-path
> message exchange between the AC and WTP, and still be close to the
> intended use of the field.
>
> Dorothy
>
> On 9/28/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) <boohara@cisco.com> wrote:
> >
> > Please understand that 802.11i specifies no behavior in this area for
> > the 802.1X authenticator.  Our choice to send a group key KeyRSC value
> > of zero in the EAPOL-key frame requires no change to 802.11i or to
> > 802.1X .  It requires us to state this in the CAPWAP spec, if we want
> > this behavior to be consistent across all implementations.
> >
> > The problem with what Bechet and Saranavan are asking is that either of
> > three different things are required:
> > 1: the WTP must communicate the group key TSC to the AC every time it i=
s
> > updated, or
> > 2: the AC must request the current value of the group key TSC for the
> > KeyRSC before constructing the EAPOL-key frame, or
> > 3: the AC must send the KCK to the AC so  that it can insert the KeyRSC
> > value and also calculate the correct MIC, inserting that into the prope=
r
> > EAPOL-key frame.
> >
> > The first item requires a tremendous amount of additional CAPWAP
> > communication between WTP and AC, at least one new CAPWAP packet for
> > every multicast frame sent by the WTP, if the packet is not
> > acknowledged, or two new CAPWAP packets, if it is acknowledged.  This i=
s
> > a very expensive addition to the protocol.
> >
> > The second item requires new protocol between the AC and WTP during wha=
t
> > can be a time critical portion of the 802.11 transition (handoff, roam)
> > from one WTP to another.  It also introduces a race condition that is
> > not present in the protocol today.  Once the value for the KeyRSC is
> > sent from the WTP to the AC, it is possible that the WTP can send
> > another multicast frame encrypted with the group key.  This puts the
> > value of the sequence counter out of sync with the value that will be
> > shortly communicated to the client in the EAPOL-key frame from the AC.
> > This will behave exactly the same as if a value of zero is sent in the
> > EAPOL-key frame.
> >
> > The third item requires a new architecture split that is not required i=
n
> >
> > our objectives.  The new split is not splitting the MAC, but splitting
> > the authenticator.  Placing the KCK in the WTP is also a potential
> > reduction in the security of the overall WLAN system, since these
> > devices are normally not in a secured wiring closet, but exposed and
> > more easily compromised than the AC.
> >
> > The simplest to implement, least expensive, and most secure option is t=
o
> > use the protocol as it is now specified and have the AC send a value of
> > zero in the KeyRSC field of the EAPOL-key frame.
> >
> > -Bob
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:50 PM
> > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;
> > Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
> >
> > Hi Pat and all,
> >
> > So, based on this, I would say that we have consensus that setting the
> > correct KeyRSC is an issue for the CAPWAP protocol design.
> >
> > So far, we have three option/solutions:
> >
> > 1) As proposed by Bob: Using a static value (0) for the KeyRSC.
> >
> > 2) As suggested by Behcet: AC communicate a correct KeyRSC to WTP
> >
> > 3) As suggested by Saravanana: Some exchange mechanism between WTP and
> > AC
> >
> > Among the three, the first option seems the easiest. However, it
> > requires a mandated Authenticator behavior(in this case AC) that is not
> > mandated by 802.11. Therefore, we have to specify that (e.g. as propose=
d
> > by Bob: "We could include a note to the effect that the group KeyRSC
> > should be zero in the EAPOL-key frame.") either in CAPWAP or 802.11,
> > because otherwise there is no interoperability. For example, AC provide=
d
> > by another vendor does not have to set KeyRSC to 0 to be compliant with
> > CAPWAP and 802.11i.
> >
> > Another implication is that we don't really understand the impact of
> > mandating a static KeyRSC value. Although Bob provided an excellent
> > analysis, I still have some doubts about the profoundness of the impact=
.
> > If the KeyRSC value is as described of no use, why would it appear in
> > the EAPOL frames in the first place? By mandating it to static value,
> > what have we lost? Maybe some liaison letter to 802.1 or 802.11 could
> > provide us a better understanding of the issue.
> >
> > For the last two options, I think they are both within CAPWAP's scope.
> > Further analysis could help us to decide which one  is better (or
> > someone could propose other solutions).
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > Cheng Hong
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto: pcalhoun@cisco.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:39 AM
> > > To: Cheng Hong; Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;
> > > Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > > Considerations
> > >
> > > Bob's point is 802.11i works this way today. The AP (or in
> > > this case AC) can set the RSC to whatever value it wishes.
> > > Bob used zero (0) as an example. Implementations could use
> > > any other value, which would require some form of
> > > communication to the WTP, as suggested by Behcet.
> > >
> > > Pat Calhoun
> > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> > > Cisco Systems
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Cheng Hong [mailto: Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:03 PM
> > > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson
> > > J (LI/EAB)
> > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > > > Considerations
> > > >
> > > > Hi Bob,
> > > >
> > > > If I understand your description below correct, you are proposing a
> > > > solution (to the problem pointed out by
> > > > Saravanan) by mandating the behavior of the AC to always set the
> > > > KeyRSC in the 4-way handshake to zero.
> > > >
> > > > This is not a defined behavior according to the current
> > > > 802.11 standard.
> > > > Are you suggesting that we CAPWAP WG should specifically
> > > mandate that
> > > > in our CAPWAP protocol spec, e.g. something like "a CAPWAP
> > > compatible
> > > > AC MUST set KeyRSC to zero"? Otherwise, the problem still exists,
> > > > since not all AC implementation have to follow what you described.
> > > >
> > > > Or, are you planning to take this issue to TGm for 802.11 standard
> > > > revision? (since based on your description, there is essentially no
> > > > use of the KeyRSC).
> > > >
> > > > cheers
> > > >
> > > > Cheng Hong
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:32 AM
> > > > > To: T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> > > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > > > > Considerations
> > > > >
> > > > > Charles, Peter,
> > > > >
> > > > > Below is an expansion of a snippet from a thread on this
> > > > topic that I
> > > > > sent to the list on July 25, 2006.  I think this will be
> > > helpful to
> > > > > understand why the exchange that Saranavan is requesting is not
> > > > > necessary.  In fact, there are several systems from several
> > > > > manufacturers in the field using precursor protocols to
> > > CAPWAP that
> > > > > are Wi-Fi certified for WPA2/802.11i operation using the
> > > > protocol as
> > > > > it is described below.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, this whole discussion is about the KeyRSC for the
> > > > group key, not
> > > > > the pairwise key.  This is so because the WTP and AC both
> > > know the
> > > > > initial sequence counter value for the pairwise key, since it has
> > > > > never been used to send a frame.   802.11i requires the
> > > first frame
> > > > > sent on a key to use the sequence counter value of 1.  See
> > > > 8.3.2.6 c)
> > > > > and
> > > > > 8.3.3.4.3 c) in 802.11i for this requirement.
> > > > >
> > > > > The same is not true of the group key, i.e., after the WTP begins
> > > > > operation, the AC will not know the value of the sequence
> > > > counter for
> > > > > the group key when it needs to complete the EAPOL-key
> > > > handshake with a
> > > > > newly associated STA.
> > > > > However, as you will see from the tutorial below, it is not
> > > > necessary
> > > > > for the AC and WTP to exchange any information about the
> > > group key
> > > > > KeyRSC for the protocol to operate as it is intended.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. A value for the KeyRSC in the EAPOL-key frame is necessary to
> > > > > calculate the KeyMIC.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. This value does not need to bear any specific
> > > > relationship to the
> > > > > RSC value maintained by the WTP.  A value of zero in the
> > > EAPOL-key
> > > > > frame for the group key will always work.
> > > > >
> > > > > 3. The client STA will use the value of KeyRSC received in the
> > > > > EAPOL-key frame to validate frame using the KeyMIC.
> > > > >
> > > > > 4. The client STA will also set its group key RSC to the value
> > > > > received in KeyRSC, say, zero.
> > > > >
> > > > > 5. The value in the client STA's RSC will be compared against the
> > > > > sequence number in subsequent received frames to identify replay
> > > > > attacks.  Any frame received with a sequence counter value
> > > > within the
> > > > > replay window will be checked to have a valid MIC.  If the
> > > > MIC is not
> > > > > valid, the frame is dropped.
> > > > >
> > > > > 6. For any frame that is determined not to be a replay
> > > attack frame
> > > > > and meets all other validity and authenticity requirements,
> > > > the client
> > > > > STA updates its RSC value to the sequence number in the received
> > > > > frame, if the value is greater than its current RSC value.
> > > > Only the
> > > > > AP can meet these criteria as the source of a frame
> > > received by the
> > > > > STA.
> > > > >
> > > > > 7. Please see item 6, immediately above, for the reason
> > > that the AC
> > > > > and WTP do not need to coordinate and exchange the RSC.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The only possible attack mode is for the attacker to send
> > > frames to
> > > > > the client STA between the time of the EAPOL-key frame and
> > > > the first
> > > > > frame encrypted with the group key.
> > > > > During this time, the client will receive the frame and
> > > proceed to
> > > > > validate its MIC.  This is a potential attack against the STA
> > > > > resources.  But, the MIC validation is done in the STA's
> > > > > 802.11 chip and consumes no more resources than receiving
> > > any other
> > > > > frame.  Thus, the attack does not actually consume any STA
> > > > resources
> > > > > beyond those of receiving a frame.
> > > > >
> > > > > This attack is not unique to the use of the value zero for
> > > > the KeyRSC,
> > > > > either.  The same attack is available to an attacker at any other
> > > > > time, as well.  It is no more nor less effective at either time.
> > > > >
> > > > > For these reasons, the protocol is not in need of any changes to
> > > > > address the issue raised by Saranavan.
> > > > >
> > > > >  -Bob
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu]
> > > > > Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:37 AM
> > > > > To: Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> > > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > > > > Considerations
> > > > >
> > > > > This is a very interesting solution.  The AC selects the
> > > KeyRSC and
> > > > > performs the 4-way handshake.  The WTP sniffs the 4-way handshake
> > > > > traffic and grabs the KeyRSC value and uses it to
> > > > initialize its own
> > > > > counter.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pat/Bob: Is this how the Cisco implementation works?  I
> > > > have to agree
> > > > > with Saravanan that I've yet to see a technical
> > > description of how
> > > > > Cisco implements it.
> > > > >
> > > > > IMHO, this is somewhat hackish, and it would be cleaner to
> > > > have the AC
> > > > > generate the KeyRSC and include it in the AddMobile message
> > > > as Behcet
> > > > > suggests.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |
> > > www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy <http://www.cs.umd.edu/%7Eclancy>
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I think Saravanan has a point. We did a prototype
> > > > impelementation of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > protocol a year ago when it was still called LWAPP. The way
> > > > > we solved
> > > > > > this issue then was to let the WTP sniff on all CAPWAP data
> > > > > messages
> > > > > > from the AC and when message 3 of the 4-way handshake or
> > > > > message 1 of
> > > > > > the groupkey handshake was sent the WTP inserted the correct RS=
C
> > > > > before
> > > > > > sending it off to the supplicant. To avoid the sniffing on
> > > > > all CAPWAP
> > > > > > data messages we would need a mechanism with in CAPWAP to
> > > > > handle these
> > > > > > two messages.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Peter Nilsson
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Saravanan Govindan
> > > > > [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com]
> > > > > > Sent: den 22 september 2006 11:03
> > > > > > To: Margaret Wasserman
> > > > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > > > > Considerations
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Margaret,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you for reviewing the discussion on this issue.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The issue here is the working of IEEE 802.11i when the 802.11i
> > > > > > authenticator element is at the AC and the 802.11i crypto
> > > > element is
> > > > > at
> > > > > > the WTP. Particularly, it is for the 4-way handshake between
> > > > > > authenticator and supplicant.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now, the 4-way handshake requires knowing the value of
> > > > > KeyRSC sequence
> > > > > > counter. The KeyRSC helps both authenticator and supplicant
> > > > > keep track
> > > > > > of their exchanges. It serves to protect against threats by
> > > > > tracking
> > > > > > sequential frames. The KeyRSC is maintained at the at the
> > > > point of
> > > > > > encryption, i.e. just before transmission over the
> > > > wireless channel.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In the case of CAPWAP, the 4-way handshake is between the AC
> > > > > > (authenticator) and the wireless station (supplicant).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The problem arises, when the authenticator is at the AC and
> > > > > the crypto
> > > > > > element (together with KeyRSC) is at the WTP. This is a
> > > > > fairly common
> > > > > > design. Now in this case, the AC starts the 4-way
> > > handshake but it
> > > > > does
> > > > > > not know the value of the KeyRSC. The KeyRSC is maintained
> > > > > by the WTP.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Based on this, the current CAPWAP specification does not
> > > > allow for a
> > > > > way
> > > > > > to conduct the 4-way handshake with the correct KeyRSC.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The functionality I would like to see is a way for the
> > > > authenticator
> > > > > > (AC) to use the correct prevailing value of KeyRSC
> > > > > (maintained by the
> > > > > > WTP) in its 4-way handshake.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One way to introduce this functionality in to CAPWAP is
> > > > to have part
> > > > > of
> > > > > > the 4-way handshake be sent from AC to WTP. This will allow
> > > > > the 4-way
> > > > > > handshake to use the correct value of the KeyRSC before
> > > > > being sent to
> > > > > > the wireless station.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I hope this helps clarify my view on the issue.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Saravanan
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com]
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:26 PM
> > > > > > To: Saravanan Govindan
> > > > > > Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > > > > Considerations
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi again,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Okay, I am even more confused than I thought I was...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Saravanan, you wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sep 17, 2006, at 10:24 PM, Saravanan Govindan wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Pat,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> The issue here is about how 802.11i exchanges are done when
> > > > > >> authenticator is at the AC and crypto elements are at
> > > > the WTP. This
> > > > > is
> > > > > >> the requirement.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And, in response, Pat Calhoun wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sep 18, 2006, at 4:15 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
> > > > > >> The current specification allows the authenticator to
> > > > > reside in the
> > > > > >> AC, while the data packet crypto elements in the WTP. This
> > > > > feature is
> > > > > >> already in the specification.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Pat's message matches my reading of the specification.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, Saravanan, what functionality are you asking for
> > > that is not
> > > > > > already supported by the specification?  And why do you
> > > > think it is
> > > > > > necessary?  it will not be helpful to my understanding to
> > > > > re-send your
> > > > > > proposal or to cite the requirements document...  Please
> > > > summarize
> > > > > > what functionality you think is missing from the current
> > > > > specification
> > > > > > and why you think that functionality is necessary to
> > > support IEEE
> > > > > > 802.11i or any important use case.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At some point, the chairs may need to make a consensus
> > > > call on this
> > > > > > issue, and I'd like to understand your view and make sure
> > > > > that it has
> > > > > > been clearly communicated to the WG before we ask the WG to
> > > > > decide on
> > > > > > this issue.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Margaret
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
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> > > please visit:
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> > > > > >
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> > > > > >
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> > > please visit:
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> > > > > >
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>
>

------=_Part_17205_4739635.1159913395002
Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Bob, all,<br>
<br>
Comments inline.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Dorothy<br><br><div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 9/29/06, <b class=3D"gma=
il_sendername">Bob O'Hara (boohara)</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:boohara@cisco=
.com">boohara@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt=
 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">




<div>

<div align=3D"left" dir=3D"ltr"><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial=
" size=3D"2"></font></span>&nbsp;</div>
<div align=3D"left" dir=3D"ltr"><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial=
" size=3D"2">Again, your proposal does not eliminate any attack=20
mechanism and does not add any functionality to the protocol, only cost and=
=20
complexity.&nbsp; A replayed frame will be discarded by the MAC, using the=
=20
normal duplicate frame detection mechanisms.&nbsp; See section=20
</font></span><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">8.3.3=
.3.2 of 802.11i (where the frame sequence number is part of the=20
additional authenticated data) and section 9.2.9 of 802.11-1999&nbsp;for th=
e=20
description of these functions.&nbsp; And PLEASE read 802.11 and 802.11i be=
fore=20
again asserting that this proposal is necessary.</font></span></div></div><=
/blockquote><div><br>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 12pt;">In Section 8.3.3.3.2, the AAD construction for CCMP&=
nbsp; includes the frame=20
sequence control field =96 and the sequence number, <br>
bits 4-15 of the frame equence control field - is masked to 0=20
in the AAD; so that only the fragment number is protected.</span></font></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 12pt;">The
TKIP MIC protects neither the fragment number nor the sequence number
of&nbsp; the 802.11 frame sequence control field, as the TKIP MIC<br>
is MSDU based.<br>
</span></font><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font=
-size: 12pt;"></span></font></p>




<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 12pt;">In 9.2.9, Duplicate detection and recovery, the text=
 indicates=20
that a STA may omit <br>
broadcast/multicast frame data from its duplicate=20
detection cache; if bc/mc data is not included, then normal<br>
duplicate frame detection will not=20
apply.</span></font></p>


<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" fa=
ce=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">As I said several emails ago, the ONLY effect of us=
ing zero=20
as the value for the KeyRSC is that the 802.11 chipset in the STA (client) =
will=20
have to receive the frame, attempt to decrypt it, and validate the MIC.&nbs=
p;=20
This must be done for EVERY frame received, whether it is a replayed frame =
or=20
not.&nbsp; This set of functions is performed in the 802.11 STA chipset and=
 does=20
not consume any additional resources of the STA.&nbsp; So, the attack, if i=
t can=20
even be characterized as an attack, is no more effective at DOSing the STA =
than=20
sending it any other frame.<br>
</font></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 12pt;">The MIC calculation, and encrpt/decrypt is typically=
 performed in hardware in the chipset for CCMP.<br>
However, the TKIP MIC calculation is typically performed=20
in the driver, in software.<br>
</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 12pt;">If a STA does not have the proper RSC value, there i=
s a &quot;window of vulnerability&quot; before it receives<br>
the correct value, during<br>
which the STA can receive and process replayed&nbsp; bc/mc frames. The magn=
itude of the DOS aspect of this<br>
depends on the STA crypto implementation - hw/ccmp - virtually no impact or=
 sw/tkip-some small impact.<br>
The larger issue is that the replay protection mechanism guarrantees provid=
ed by 802.11i are lost.<br>
</span></font></p>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb=
(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div>
<p><font size=3D"2">&nbsp;-Bob<br>&nbsp;</font> </p>
<div>&nbsp;</div><br>
<div align=3D"left" dir=3D"ltr" lang=3D"en-us">
<hr>
<font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span class=3D"q"><b>From:</b> Cheng Hong=
=20
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com" target=3D"_blank" on=
click=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">Hong.Cheng@sg.panaso=
nic.com</a>] <br></span><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 28,=20
2006 5:34 PM<div><span class=3D"e" id=3D"q_10dfa56d519fe429_3"><br><b>To:</=
b> Bob O'Hara (boohara); Dorothy Stanley<br><b>Cc:</b>=20
Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB);=20
<a href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com</a>; Saravanan G=
ovindan<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Capwap] Issue 43=20
- Explanation for 802.11i Considerations<br></span></div></font><br></div><=
div><span class=3D"e" id=3D"q_10dfa56d519fe429_5">
<div></div>
<div><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Hi=20
Bob,</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font></span>=
&nbsp;</div>
<div><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">As=20
Dorothy correctly pointed out below, setting the KeyRSC to a value closer t=
o the=20
current RSC would be better than setting it to a pre-defined value zero.=20
</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font></span>=
&nbsp;</div>
<div><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">It is=20
true that 802.11i and 802.1X do not specify what is the KeyRSC value to be =
used,=20
since they are trying to provide us a tool to correctly synchronize the RSC=
=20
using the Msg 3. By mandating the KeyRSC to zero, we are just disabling the=
=20
tool. It is not wrong, but just deprives the system a designed=20
function.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font></span>=
&nbsp;</div>
<div><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">As for=20
the effectiveness of KeyRSC, setting it to a predefined value of 0 would po=
se a=20
greater threat. In a simple example, if the RSC is currently 1000, and we a=
re=20
mandating the KeyRSC to be always&nbsp;zero, the attacker basically can saf=
ely=20
replay the last 1000 packets to the STA without being detected.&nbsp;If the=
=20
KeyRSC can be set to a closer value of the current RSC, say, 900, the numbe=
r of=20
possible&nbsp;replayed packets can be reduced to 10 percent, 100 packets.=
=20
</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font></span>=
&nbsp;</div>
<div><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Therefore, I w=
ould say, setting the KeyRSC value to zero does place a=20
bigger threat. Is that how the cisco products implemented? Maybe you could =
share=20
with us some other implementation/testing data to prove otherwise. Or, you =
have=20
some other considerations that could defend the replay=20
attack?</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font></span>=
&nbsp;</div>
<div><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">cheers</font><=
/span></div>
<div><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font></span>=
&nbsp;</div>
<div><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Cheng=20
Hong</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font></span>=
&nbsp;</div><br>
<blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 5=
px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
  <div align=3D"left" dir=3D"ltr" lang=3D"en-us">
  <hr>
  <font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><b>From:</b> Bob O'Hara (boohara)=20
  [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:boohara@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D=
"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">boohara@cisco.com</a>] <br><=
b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 29, 2006 5:21=20
  AM<br><b>To:</b> Dorothy Stanley<br><b>Cc:</b> Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun=20
  (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB);=20
  <a href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"retur=
n top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com</a><br><b>Subj=
ect:</b> RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for=20
  802.11i Considerations<br></font><br></div>
  <div></div>
  <div align=3D"left" dir=3D"ltr"><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Ari=
al" size=3D"2">Dorothy,</font></span></div>
  <div align=3D"left" dir=3D"ltr"><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Ari=
al" size=3D"2"></font></span>&nbsp;</div>
  <div align=3D"left" dir=3D"ltr"><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Ari=
al" size=3D"2">The problem with this proposal is that it is no more=20
  effective than sending a value of zero for the KeyRSC.&nbsp;&nbsp;It does=
n't=20
  eliminate any potential attacks.&nbsp; It doesn't add any=20
  functionality.&nbsp;&nbsp;However, it does&nbsp;add cost and complexity t=
o the=20
  protocol.&nbsp; </font></span></div>
  <p><font size=3D"2">&nbsp;-Bob<br>&nbsp;</font> </p>
  <div>&nbsp;</div><br>
  <div align=3D"left" dir=3D"ltr" lang=3D"en-us">
  <hr>
  <font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><b>From:</b> Dorothy Stanley=20
  [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" oncli=
ck=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dstanley1389@gmail.com<=
/a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 28, 2006=20
  1:17 PM<br><b>To:</b> Bob O'Hara (boohara)<br><b>Cc:</b> Cheng Hong; Pat=
=20
  Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB);=20
  <a href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"retur=
n top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com</a><br><b>Subj=
ect:</b> Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for=20
  802.11i Considerations<br></font><br></div>
  <div></div>All,<br><br>Below is the text from 802.11REV-maD8.0 Clause 8.5=
.2,=20
  describing the Key RSC field.:<br><br><span style=3D"font-style: italic;"=
>&quot;g) Key=20
  RSC. This field is 8 octets in length. It contains the receive sequence=
=20
  counter (RSC) for the</span><br style=3D"font-style: italic;"><span style=
=3D"font-style: italic;">GTK being installed in IEEE 802.11. It is used in=
=20
  Message 3 of the 4-Way Handshake and</span><br style=3D"font-style: itali=
c;"><span style=3D"font-style: italic;">Message 1 of the=20
  Group Key Handshake, where it is used to synchronize the IEEE 802.11=20
  replay</span><br style=3D"font-style: italic;"><span style=3D"font-style:=
 italic;">state. It may also be used in the Michael MIC=20
  Failure Report frame, to report the TSC field value of</span><br style=3D=
"font-style: italic;"><span style=3D"font-style: italic;">the frame=20
  experiencing a MIC failure. It shall contain 0 in other messages. The Key=
 RSC=20
  field gives</span><br style=3D"font-style: italic;"><span style=3D"font-s=
tyle: italic;">the current message number for the GTK, to allow a=20
  STA to identify replayed MPDUs. If the Key</span><br style=3D"font-style:=
 italic;"><span style=3D"font-style: italic;">RSC field value is=20
  less than 8 octets in length, the remaining octets shall be set to 0. The=
=20
  least significant</span><br style=3D"font-style: italic;"><span style=3D"=
font-style: italic;">octet of the TSC or PN should be in the first octet=20
  of the Key RSC field.&quot;</span><br><br>The intent of adding this value=
 in=20
  message 3 was to immediately minimize the number of <br>replayed frames t=
hat a=20
  STA would potentially process: &quot;The Key RSC field gives<br>the curre=
nt message=20
  number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify replayed MPDUs.&quot;<br>S=
etting the=20
  value to 0 in Msg 3 does not provide the current sequence counter (in mos=
t=20
  cases<br>not even close) of the GTK..<br><br>Perhaps the WTP could=20
  periodically/frequently notify the AC of its current GTK sequence counter=
, and=20
  the<br>AC would use the most recently received value in the message 3 sen=
t to=20
  new STAs. The RSC value<br>would not be&nbsp; up to date at all times, bu=
t=20
  would be closer than &quot;0&quot;, not require an &quot;in-the-critical-=
path<br>message=20
  exchange between the AC and WTP, and still be close to the intended use o=
f the=20
  field.<br><br>Dorothy<br><br>
  <div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 9/28/06, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername=
">Bob O'Hara=20
  (boohara)</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:boohara@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank" =
onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">boohara@cisco.com<=
/a>&gt;=20
  wrote:</span>=20
  <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204=
, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Please=20
    understand that 802.11i specifies no behavior in this area for<br>the 8=
02.1X=20
    authenticator.&nbsp;&nbsp;Our choice to send a group key KeyRSC value<b=
r>of=20
    zero in the EAPOL-key frame requires no change to 802.11i or to<br>802.=
1X=20
    .&nbsp;&nbsp;It requires us to state this in the CAPWAP spec, if we=20
    want<br>this behavior to be consistent across all=20
    implementations.<br><br>The problem with what Bechet and Saranavan are=
=20
    asking is that either of<br>three different things are required: <br>1:=
 the=20
    WTP must communicate the group key TSC to the AC every time it=20
    is<br>updated, or<br>2: the AC must request the current value of the gr=
oup=20
    key TSC for the<br>KeyRSC before constructing the EAPOL-key frame, or<b=
r>3:=20
    the AC must send the KCK to the AC so&nbsp;&nbsp;that it can insert the=
=20
    KeyRSC<br>value and also calculate the correct MIC, inserting that into=
 the=20
    proper<br>EAPOL-key frame.<br><br>The first item requires a tremendous=
=20
    amount of additional CAPWAP <br>communication between WTP and AC, at le=
ast=20
    one new CAPWAP packet for<br>every multicast frame sent by the WTP, if =
the=20
    packet is not<br>acknowledged, or two new CAPWAP packets, if it is=20
    acknowledged.&nbsp;&nbsp;This is<br>a very expensive addition to the=20
    protocol. <br><br>The second item requires new protocol between the AC =
and=20
    WTP during what<br>can be a time critical portion of the 802.11 transit=
ion=20
    (handoff, roam)<br>from one WTP to another.&nbsp;&nbsp;It also introduc=
es a=20
    race condition that is <br>not present in the protocol=20
    today.&nbsp;&nbsp;Once the value for the KeyRSC is<br>sent from the WTP=
 to=20
    the AC, it is possible that the WTP can send<br>another multicast frame=
=20
    encrypted with the group key.&nbsp;&nbsp;This puts the<br>value of the=
=20
    sequence counter out of sync with the value that will be <br>shortly=20
    communicated to the client in the EAPOL-key frame from the AC.<br>This =
will=20
    behave exactly the same as if a value of zero is sent in the<br>EAPOL-k=
ey=20
    frame.<br><br>The third item requires a new architecture split that is =
not=20
    required in <br>our objectives.&nbsp;&nbsp;The new split is not splitti=
ng=20
    the MAC, but splitting<br>the authenticator.&nbsp;&nbsp;Placing the KCK=
 in=20
    the WTP is also a potential<br>reduction in the security of the overall=
 WLAN=20
    system, since these<br>devices are normally not in a secured wiring clo=
set,=20
    but exposed and <br>more easily compromised than the AC.<br><br>The sim=
plest=20
    to implement, least expensive, and most secure option is to<br>use the=
=20
    protocol as it is now specified and have the AC send a value of<br>zero=
 in=20
    the KeyRSC field of the EAPOL-key frame. <br><br>-Bob<br><br>-----Origi=
nal=20
    Message-----<br>From: Cheng Hong [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Hong.Cheng@s=
g.panasonic.com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(win=
dow,event,this)">Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com</a>]<br>Sent:=20
    Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:50 PM<br>To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Bo=
b=20
    O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; <br>Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)<br>Cc=
: <a href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"retur=
n top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com</a><br>Subject=
: RE:=20
    [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations<br><br>Hi Pa=
t and=20
    all,<br><br>So, based on this, I would say that we have consensus that=
=20
    setting the <br>correct KeyRSC is an issue for the CAPWAP protocol=20
    design.<br><br>So far, we have three option/solutions:<br><br>1) As pro=
posed=20
    by Bob: Using a static value (0) for the KeyRSC.<br><br>2) As suggested=
 by=20
    Behcet: AC communicate a correct KeyRSC to WTP <br><br>3) As suggested =
by=20
    Saravanana: Some exchange mechanism between WTP and<br>AC<br><br>Among =
the=20
    three, the first option seems the easiest. However, it<br>requires a=20
    mandated Authenticator behavior(in this case AC) that is not <br>mandat=
ed by=20
    802.11. Therefore, we have to specify that (e.g. as proposed<br>by Bob:=
 &quot;We=20
    could include a note to the effect that the group KeyRSC<br>should be z=
ero=20
    in the EAPOL-key frame.&quot;) either in CAPWAP or 802.11,<br>because o=
therwise=20
    there is no interoperability. For example, AC provided<br>by another ve=
ndor=20
    does not have to set KeyRSC to 0 to be compliant with<br>CAPWAP and=20
    802.11i.<br><br>Another implication is that we don't really understand =
the=20
    impact of <br>mandating a static KeyRSC value. Although Bob provided an=
=20
    excellent<br>analysis, I still have some doubts about the profoundness =
of=20
    the impact.<br>If the KeyRSC value is as described of no use, why would=
 it=20
    appear in<br>the EAPOL frames in the first place? By mandating it to st=
atic=20
    value,<br>what have we lost? Maybe some liaison letter to 802.1 or 802.=
11=20
    could<br>provide us a better understanding of the issue.<br><br>For the=
 last=20
    two options, I think they are both within CAPWAP's scope. <br>Further=
=20
    analysis could help us to decide which one&nbsp;&nbsp;is better=20
    (or<br>someone could propose other solutions).<br><br>cheers<br><br>Che=
ng=20
    Hong<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>=
&gt;=20
    From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto: <a href=3D"mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.=
com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,th=
is)">pcalhoun@cisco.com</a>]<br>&gt; Sent:=20
    Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:39 AM<br>&gt; To: Cheng Hong; Bob O'Hara=
=20
    (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;<br>&gt; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)<br>&gt; =
Cc:=20
    <a href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"ret=
urn top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com</a><br>&gt;=
=20
    Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i<br>&gt;=20
    Considerations<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Bob's point is 802.11i works this way to=
day.=20
    The AP (or in <br>&gt; this case AC) can set the RSC to whatever value =
it=20
    wishes.<br>&gt; Bob used zero (0) as an example. Implementations could=
=20
    use<br>&gt; any other value, which would require some form of<br>&gt;=
=20
    communication to the WTP, as suggested by Behcet. <br>&gt;<br>&gt; Pat=
=20
    Calhoun<br>&gt; CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit<br>&gt; Cisco=20
    Systems<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; -----Original=20
    Message-----<br>&gt; &gt; From: Cheng Hong [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Ho=
ng.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenE=
xtLink(window,event,this)">=20
    Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com</a>]<br>&gt; &gt; Sent: Tuesday, September =
26,=20
    2006 6:03 PM<br>&gt; &gt; To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; =
Peter=20
    Nilsson<br>&gt; J (LI/EAB)<br>&gt; &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:capwap@fr=
ascone.com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,e=
vent,this)">capwap@frascone.com</a><br>&gt; &gt;=20
    Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i<br>&gt; &gt;=
=20
    Considerations<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Hi Bob,<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &=
gt;=20
    If I understand your description below correct, you are proposing a <br=
>&gt;=20
    &gt; solution (to the problem pointed out by<br>&gt; &gt; Saravanan) by=
=20
    mandating the behavior of the AC to always set the<br>&gt; &gt; KeyRSC =
in=20
    the 4-way handshake to zero.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; This is not a de=
fined=20
    behavior according to the current <br>&gt; &gt; 802.11 standard.<br>&gt=
;=20
    &gt; Are you suggesting that we CAPWAP WG should specifically<br>&gt;=
=20
    mandate that<br>&gt; &gt; in our CAPWAP protocol spec, e.g. something l=
ike=20
    &quot;a CAPWAP<br>&gt; compatible<br>&gt; &gt; AC MUST set KeyRSC to ze=
ro&quot;?=20
    Otherwise, the problem still exists,<br>&gt; &gt; since not all AC=20
    implementation have to follow what you described.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt;=20
    Or, are you planning to take this issue to TGm for 802.11 standard<br>&=
gt;=20
    &gt; revision? (since based on your description, there is essentially=
=20
    no<br>&gt; &gt; use of the KeyRSC).<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; cheers<br=
>&gt;=20
    &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Cheng Hong<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; <br>&gt; &gt;<br=
>&gt;=20
    &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Fro=
m:=20
    Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:boohara@cisco.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">booha=
ra@cisco.com</a>]<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;=20
    Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:32 AM <br>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: T.=
=20
    Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: <a href=
=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return top.js.=
OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com</a><br>&gt; &gt; &gt;=
=20
    Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i <br>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
    Considerations<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Charles, Peter,<br>&=
gt;=20
    &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Below is an expansion of a snippet from a t=
hread=20
    on this<br>&gt; &gt; topic that I<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; sent to the list on=
 July=20
    25, 2006.&nbsp;&nbsp;I think this will be <br>&gt; helpful to<br>&gt; &=
gt;=20
    &gt; understand why the exchange that Saranavan is requesting is not<br=
>&gt;=20
    &gt; &gt; necessary.&nbsp;&nbsp;In fact, there are several systems from=
=20
    several<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; manufacturers in the field using precursor=20
    protocols to <br>&gt; CAPWAP that<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; are Wi-Fi certified=
 for=20
    WPA2/802.11i operation using the<br>&gt; &gt; protocol as<br>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
    it is described below.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; BTW, this wh=
ole=20
    discussion is about the KeyRSC for the <br>&gt; &gt; group key, not<br>=
&gt;=20
    &gt; &gt; the pairwise key.&nbsp;&nbsp;This is so because the WTP and A=
C=20
    both<br>&gt; know the<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; initial sequence counter value =
for=20
    the pairwise key, since it has<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; never been used to sen=
d a=20
    frame.&nbsp;&nbsp; 802.11i requires the<br>&gt; first frame<br>&gt; &gt=
;=20
    &gt; sent on a key to use the sequence counter value of=20
    1.&nbsp;&nbsp;See<br>&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://8.3.2.6" target=3D"_bl=
ank" onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">8.3.2.6</a>=
=20
    c)<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; and<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; 8.3.3.4.3 c) in 802.11i for =
this=20
    requirement.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; The same is not true o=
f the=20
    group key, i.e., after the WTP begins<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; operation, the =
AC=20
    will not know the value of the sequence<br>&gt; &gt; counter for <br>&g=
t;=20
    &gt; &gt; the group key when it needs to complete the EAPOL-key<br>&gt;=
 &gt;=20
    handshake with a<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; newly associated STA.<br>&gt; &gt; &=
gt;=20
    However, as you will see from the tutorial below, it is not<br>&gt; &gt=
;=20
    necessary<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; for the AC and WTP to exchange any informat=
ion=20
    about the<br>&gt; group key<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; KeyRSC for the protocol t=
o=20
    operate as it is intended.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; 1. A val=
ue=20
    for the KeyRSC in the EAPOL-key frame is necessary to <br>&gt; &gt; &gt=
;=20
    calculate the KeyMIC.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; 2. This value=
 does=20
    not need to bear any specific<br>&gt; &gt; relationship to the<br>&gt; =
&gt;=20
    &gt; RSC value maintained by the WTP.&nbsp;&nbsp;A value of zero in the=
=20
    <br>&gt; EAPOL-key<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; frame for the group key will alway=
s=20
    work.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; 3. The client STA will use th=
e=20
    value of KeyRSC received in the<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; EAPOL-key frame to=20
    validate frame using the KeyMIC. <br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; 4=
. The=20
    client STA will also set its group key RSC to the value<br>&gt; &gt; &g=
t;=20
    received in KeyRSC, say, zero.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; 5. T=
he=20
    value in the client STA's RSC will be compared against the <br>&gt; &gt=
;=20
    &gt; sequence number in subsequent received frames to identify=20
    replay<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; attacks.&nbsp;&nbsp;Any frame received with a=
=20
    sequence counter value<br>&gt; &gt; within the<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; replay=
=20
    window will be checked to have a valid MIC.&nbsp;&nbsp;If the <br>&gt; =
&gt;=20
    MIC is not<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; valid, the frame is dropped.<br>&gt; &gt;=
=20
    &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; 6. For any frame that is determined not to be a=
=20
    replay<br>&gt; attack frame<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; and meets all other valid=
ity=20
    and authenticity requirements, <br>&gt; &gt; the client<br>&gt; &gt; &g=
t;=20
    STA updates its RSC value to the sequence number in the received<br>&gt=
;=20
    &gt; &gt; frame, if the value is greater than its current RSC value.<br=
>&gt;=20
    &gt; Only the<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; AP can meet these criteria as the sourc=
e of=20
    a frame <br>&gt; received by the<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; STA.<br>&gt; &gt;=20
    &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; 7. Please see item 6, immediately above, for the=
=20
    reason<br>&gt; that the AC<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; and WTP do not need to=20
    coordinate and exchange the RSC. <br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;=20
    &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; The only possible attack mode is for the attacke=
r to=20
    send<br>&gt; frames to<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; the client STA between the tim=
e of=20
    the EAPOL-key frame and<br>&gt; &gt; the first <br>&gt; &gt; &gt; frame=
=20
    encrypted with the group key.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; During this time, the c=
lient=20
    will receive the frame and<br>&gt; proceed to<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; validat=
e its=20
    MIC.&nbsp;&nbsp;This is a potential attack against the STA <br>&gt; &gt=
;=20
    &gt; resources.&nbsp;&nbsp;But, the MIC validation is done in the=20
    STA's<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; 802.11 chip and consumes no more resources than=
=20
    receiving<br>&gt; any other<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; frame.&nbsp;&nbsp;Thus, t=
he=20
    attack does not actually consume any STA <br>&gt; &gt; resources<br>&gt=
;=20
    &gt; &gt; beyond those of receiving a frame.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt;=20
    &gt; This attack is not unique to the use of the value zero for<br>&gt;=
 &gt;=20
    the KeyRSC,<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; either.&nbsp;&nbsp;The same attack is=20
    available to an attacker at any other <br>&gt; &gt; &gt; time, as=20
    well.&nbsp;&nbsp;It is no more nor less effective at either time.<br>&g=
t;=20
    &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; For these reasons, the protocol is not in n=
eed=20
    of any changes to<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; address the issue raised by Saranav=
an.=20
    <br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;-Bob<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;=
=20
    -----Original Message-----<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: T. Charles Clancy=20
    [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu" target=3D"_blank" onclick=
=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">clancy@cs.umd.edu</a>]<br=
>&gt;=20
    &gt; &gt; Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:37 AM <br>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
To:=20
    Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:capwap=
@frascone.com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(windo=
w,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com</a><br>&gt; &gt; &gt;=20
    Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i<br>&gt; &gt; &=
gt;=20
    Considerations <br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; This is a very=20
    interesting solution.&nbsp;&nbsp;The AC selects the<br>&gt; KeyRSC=20
    and<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; performs the 4-way handshake.&nbsp;&nbsp;The WTP=
=20
    sniffs the 4-way handshake<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; traffic and grabs the KeyR=
SC=20
    value and uses it to <br>&gt; &gt; initialize its own<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;=
=20
    counter.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pat/Bob: Is this how the C=
isco=20
    implementation works?&nbsp;&nbsp;I<br>&gt; &gt; have to agree<br>&gt; &=
gt;=20
    &gt; with Saravanan that I've yet to see a technical <br>&gt; descripti=
on of=20
    how<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cisco implements it.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &g=
t;=20
    &gt; IMHO, this is somewhat hackish, and it would be cleaner to<br>&gt;=
 &gt;=20
    have the AC<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; generate the KeyRSC and include it in the=
=20
    AddMobile message <br>&gt; &gt; as Behcet<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;=20
    suggests.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; --<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; t.=
=20
    charles clancy, ph.d.&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:tcc@umd=
.edu" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,t=
his)">tcc@umd.edu</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br>&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.cs.umd.edu=
/%7Eclancy" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,e=
vent,this)">
www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy</a><br>&gt; &gt;=20
    &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)=20
    wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I think Saravanan has a=
=20
    point. We did a prototype<br>&gt; &gt; impelementation of <br>&gt; &gt;=
 &gt;=20
    the<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; protocol a year ago when it was still called=
=20
    LWAPP. The way<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; we solved<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; this =
issue=20
    then was to let the WTP sniff on all CAPWAP data<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; mess=
ages=20
    <br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; from the AC and when message 3 of the 4-way=20
    handshake or<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; message 1 of<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the=
=20
    groupkey handshake was sent the WTP inserted the correct RSC<br>&gt; &g=
t;=20
    &gt; before <br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; sending it off to the supplicant. T=
o=20
    avoid the sniffing on<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; all CAPWAP<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &g=
t;=20
    data messages we would need a mechanism with in CAPWAP to<br>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
    handle these <br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; two messages.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;=20
    &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Peter Nilsson<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt=
;=20
    &gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From:=
=20
    Saravanan Govindan<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Saravana=
n.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return top.js.Ope=
nExtLink(window,event,this)">Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com</a>]<br>&g=
t;=20
    &gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: den 22 september 2006 11:03<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=
 To:=20
    Margaret Wasserman<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:capwap@=
frascone.com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window=
,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com</a><br>&gt; &gt; &gt;=20
    &gt; Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i<br>&gt; &=
gt;=20
    &gt; Considerations<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Hi=20
    Margaret,<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Thank you for=
=20
    reviewing the discussion on this issue.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt;=20
    &gt; &gt; The issue here is the working of IEEE 802.11i when the=20
    802.11i<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; authenticator element is at the AC and t=
he=20
    802.11i crypto<br>&gt; &gt; element is<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; at<br>&gt; &gt=
;=20
    &gt; &gt; the WTP. Particularly, it is for the 4-way handshake between=
=20
    <br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; authenticator and supplicant.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;=
=20
    &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Now, the 4-way handshake requires knowing t=
he=20
    value of<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; KeyRSC sequence<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; count=
er.=20
    The KeyRSC helps both authenticator and supplicant <br>&gt; &gt; &gt; k=
eep=20
    track<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; of their exchanges. It serves to protect=
=20
    against threats by<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; tracking<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=20
    sequential frames. The KeyRSC is maintained at the at the<br>&gt; &gt; =
point=20
    of<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; encryption, i.e. just before transmission ove=
r=20
    the<br>&gt; &gt; wireless channel.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
    &gt; In the case of CAPWAP, the 4-way handshake is between the AC <br>&=
gt;=20
    &gt; &gt; &gt; (authenticator) and the wireless station=20
    (supplicant).<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The problem=
=20
    arises, when the authenticator is at the AC and<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; the=
=20
    crypto<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; element (together with KeyRSC) is at the =
WTP.=20
    This is a <br>&gt; &gt; &gt; fairly common<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; desig=
n.=20
    Now in this case, the AC starts the 4-way<br>&gt; handshake but it<br>&=
gt;=20
    &gt; &gt; does<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; not know the value of the KeyRSC.=
 The=20
    KeyRSC is maintained <br>&gt; &gt; &gt; by the WTP.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;=
=20
    &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Based on this, the current CAPWAP specifica=
tion=20
    does not<br>&gt; &gt; allow for a<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; way<br>&gt; &gt; &g=
t;=20
    &gt; to conduct the 4-way handshake with the correct KeyRSC. <br>&gt; &=
gt;=20
    &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The functionality I would like to see =
is a=20
    way for the<br>&gt; &gt; authenticator<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (AC) to u=
se=20
    the correct prevailing value of KeyRSC<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; (maintained by=
 the=20
    <br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; WTP) in its 4-way handshake.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;=
=20
    &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; One way to introduce this functionality in =
to=20
    CAPWAP is<br>&gt; &gt; to have part<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; of<br>&gt; &gt; &=
gt;=20
    &gt; the 4-way handshake be sent from AC to WTP. This will allow <br>&g=
t;=20
    &gt; &gt; the 4-way<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; handshake to use the correct=
=20
    value of the KeyRSC before<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; being sent to<br>&gt; &gt;=
 &gt;=20
    &gt; the wireless station.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt=
; I=20
    hope this helps clarify my view on the issue. <br>&gt; &gt; &gt;=20
    &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Cheers,<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;=
 &gt;=20
    &gt; Saravanan<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &g=
t;=20
    &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>&gt; &gt; &=
gt;=20
    &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt; &gt; &gt=
;=20
    &gt; From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:margaret@thingm=
agic.com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,eve=
nt,this)">margaret@thingmagic.com</a>]<br>&gt;=20
    &gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:26 PM <br>&gt; &gt;=
 &gt;=20
    &gt; To: Saravanan Govindan<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: Pat Calhoun=20
    (pacalhou); <a href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target=3D"_blank" on=
click=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com<=
/a><br>&gt; &gt; &gt;=20
    &gt; Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i<br>&gt; &=
gt;=20
    &gt; Considerations<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&g=
t;=20
    &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Hi again,<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;=20
    &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Okay, I am even more confused than I though=
t I=20
    was... <br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Saravanan, you=20
    wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Sep 17, 2006, a=
t=20
    10:24 PM, Saravanan Govindan wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;=
 &gt;=20
    &gt;&gt; Pat, <br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Th=
e=20
    issue here is about how 802.11i exchanges are done when<br>&gt; &gt; &g=
t;=20
    &gt;&gt; authenticator is at the AC and crypto elements are at<br>&gt; =
&gt;=20
    the WTP. This <br>&gt; &gt; &gt; is<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; the=20
    requirement.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; And, in resp=
onse,=20
    Pat Calhoun wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Sep=
 18,=20
    2006, at 4:15 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: <br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=
&gt;=20
    The current specification allows the authenticator to<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;=
=20
    reside in the<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; AC, while the data packet cryp=
to=20
    elements in the WTP. This<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; feature is <br>&gt; &gt; &g=
t;=20
    &gt;&gt; already in the specification.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &=
gt;=20
    &gt; &gt; Pat's message matches my reading of the specification.<br>&gt=
;=20
    &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So, Saravanan, what functionality=
 are=20
    you asking for <br>&gt; that is not<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; already supp=
orted=20
    by the specification?&nbsp;&nbsp;And why do you<br>&gt; &gt; think it=
=20
    is<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; necessary?&nbsp;&nbsp;it will not be helpful =
to my=20
    understanding to<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; re-send your <br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=
=20
    proposal or to cite the requirements document...&nbsp;&nbsp;Please<br>&=
gt;=20
    &gt; summarize<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; what functionality you think is=
=20
    missing from the current<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; specification<br>&gt; &gt; &=
gt;=20
    &gt; and why you think that functionality is necessary to <br>&gt; supp=
ort=20
    IEEE<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 802.11i or any important use case.<br>&gt; =
&gt;=20
    &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; At some point, the chairs may need to =
make=20
    a consensus<br>&gt; &gt; call on this<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; issue, and=
 I'd=20
    like to understand your view and make sure <br>&gt; &gt; &gt; that it=
=20
    has<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; been clearly communicated to the WG before w=
e ask=20
    the WG to<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; decide on<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; this=20
    issue.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks, <br>&gt; &=
gt;=20
    &gt; &gt; Margaret<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt=
;=20
    &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &g=
t;=20
    &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt;=20
    _________________________________________________________________ <br>&=
gt;=20
    &gt; &gt; &gt; To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options,<br>&=
gt;=20
    please visit:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://lists.frascone.c=
om/mailman/listinfo/capwap" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return top.js.Open=
ExtLink(window,event,this)">http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capw=
ap=20
    </a><br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Archives: <a href=3D=
"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"r=
eturn top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://lists.frascone.com/pipe=
rmail/capwap
</a><br>&gt;=20
    &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt;=20
    _________________________________________________________________ <br>&=
gt;=20
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gt;=20
    please visit:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://lists.frascone.c=
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</a><br>&gt;=20
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    _________________________________________________________________ <br>&=
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ow,event,this)">http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</a><br>&g=
t;=20
    &gt; &gt; <br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Archives: <a href=3D"http://lists.frascone=
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Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 15:28:13 -0700
From: "Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>
To: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
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Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 143: Specification for the
	usage of CERTS for CAPWAP/was CERT issues in CAPWAP-01
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All,

Proposed resolutions for the several components of Issue 143 are included
below.
Issue 143 is also copied below.

Comments please.

Thanks,

Dorothy
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) It should be OK for the clock on a WTP to be "wacky",
  due to having no battery backed up clock, the battery
  going bad, the clock never set properly. On the other
  hand, an AC's clock should be set pretty accurately.
  I't not sure that the recommendations support this
  scenario. In general, want to support:
    0) WTPs with no management interface (other than CAPWAP)
    1) first time use of WTP after being manufactured
    2) continued use of WTP after long time operation
    3) continued use in short term deployments (such
        as WiFi network used by a Circus that moves from
        town to town (setting up and tearing down for
        for each move), or for the WiFi network used
        at conferences (such as the IETF).

Proposed resolution: Adopt Charles' Clancy's recommendation to
Replace the following text:

 Proper validation of certificates typically requires checking to
   ensure the certificate has not yet expired.  If devices have a real-
   time clock, they SHOULD verify the certificate validity dates.  If no
   real-time clock is available, the device SHOULD attempt to determine
   the current time using NTP prior to certificate validation.  If
   neither is available, devices SHOULD verify that the start validity
   date of its peer's certificate is less than its own certificate's
   expiration date, and its peer's expiration date is greater than its
   own start date.  Note that failure to check a certificate's temporal
   validity can make a device vulnerable to man-in-the-middle attacks
   launched using compromised, expired certificates, and therefore
   devices should make every effort to perform this validation.


with


Proper validation of certificates typically requires checking to
   ensure the certificate has not yet expired.  If devices have a
   real-time clock, they SHOULD verify the certificate validity dates.
    If no real-time clock is available, the device SHOULD make a
   best-effort attempt to validate the certificate validity dates
   through other means.  Failure to check a certificate's temporal
    validity can make a device vulnerable to man-in-the-middle attacks
   launched using compromised, expired certificates, and therefore
   devices should make every effort to perform this validation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2) The new text suggests the common name in the format
  "01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET" for WTPs. And implies
  that "DOMAIN.NET <http://domain.net/>" is the "administrative domain".
  To me, "administrative domain" implies the user
  of the WTP. But, I believe that the WTP manufacturer
  must be required to generate a CERT (and the WTP
  should come "preloaded" with the CERT), and the user
  of the WTP should not have to create the WTP CERT.
  (By the way, not sure how long the CERT should be
  valid.) Thus, I see no need or desire for
   "@DOMAIN.NET <http://domain.net/>" added to the common name, and suggest
  that it be removed. (Also, I think that we have
  now a new requirement to be able via CAPWAP to
  replace the WTP's CERT with another, and may be
  to add CA CERTs for the AC's CERT chain. Also,
  what is the min depth that a WTP should support?)

Proposed Resolution:
Adopt David's suggestion to drop the @DOMAIN.NET and
add a sentence describing the storage requirements on the WTP and AC:

Change from:

  Another important part of certificate authentication is binding a
   certificate to a particular device.  There are many ways to
   accomplish this.  CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the certificate common
   name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX,
   followed by an @ symbol, and then an administrative domain.  For
   example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET.  During authentication,
   devices SHOULD ensure that the MAC matches the MAC specified in the
   CAPWAP header, and that the domain in both the AC and WTP
   certificates match.

to
  Another important part of certificate authentication is binding a
   certificate to a particular device.  There are many ways to
   accomplish this.  CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the certificate common
   name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX,
   for example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab.  During authentication,
   devices SHOULD ensure that the MAC address matches the MAC
   address  specified in the CAPWAP header. If this mechanism is used, the
ACs SHOULD
   maintain list of all authorized WTP MAC addresses and the WTP SHOULD
   save the AC credential or credential identifier.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be selfsigned,
    and MUST have a common name of the ASCII
    of the MAC address (or other unique ID,
    such as serial number)

Proposed resolution:
No change to the text regarding use of self-signed certs. While the use
of self-signed certs may not
be widespread,  there isn't a compelling need to preclude their
use in a CAPWAP application.

Change the text to require that WTP certs MUST have a
common mane of the ASCII of the MAC address:

from:
CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the certificate common
   name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX,
   for example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab.

to

Specificaiton of the certificate common
   name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX,
   for example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab is REQUIRED for use with the CAPWAP
protocol.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  4)  The Join Request must be updated to include
    the common name as a message element

Proposed resolution: No change to the text. The join request
currenly includes the BSSID. Also, since the JOIN occurs inside the DTLS
tunnel, it is
 implicitly bound to the MAC (assuming certs were used for authentication,
and
this is N/A for preshared key authentication).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  5) specify that WTPs must continue even when it
    believes its CERT or the AC's CERT is outside
    the time window

Proposed resolution: No change to the document.
That seems equivalent to mandating WTPs never validate timestamps on any
AC certs.  What if the WTP has a real-time clock and actually CAN
distinguish between good and bad certs?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
 6) Tthe CAPWAP protocol must have a new message
      to install an updated CERT for the WTP.

Proposed resolution: Defer for consideration in the next version of CAPWAP;
the mechanisms for certificate distribution and management are
quite complex re: certifcate formats, content, generation etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 7) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message
      to install a CA CERT.

Proposed resolution: Defer for consideration in the next version of CAPWAP;
the mechanisms for certificate distribution and management are
quite complex re: certifcate formats, content, management.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Issue 143:

1) Cipher Suites for CERTS
CAPWAP-01 has the following cipher suites specified:
TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA,
TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA, and
TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA

The above is a mistake, and the following should be used:

TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA,
TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA, and
TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA

2) CERT usage type:
CAPWAP-01 has the folllwing about CERTS:
  2.4.4.3
.  Certificate Usage

  Validation of the certificates by the AC and WTP is required so that
  only an AC may perform the functions of an AC and that only a WTP may
  perform the functions of a WTP.  This restriction of functions to the

  AC or WTP requires that the certificates used by the AC MUST be
  distinguishable from the certificate used by the WTP.  To accomplish
  this differentiation, the x.509v3 certificates MUST include the
  Extensions field [11] and MUST include the NetscapeComment [15]

  extension.

  For an AC, the value of the NetscapeComment extension MUST be the
  string "CAPWAP AC Device Certificate".  For a WTP, the value of the
  NetscapeComment extension MUST be the string "CAPWAP WTP Device

  Certificate".

  Part of the CAPWAP certificate validation process includes ensuring
  that the proper string is included in the NetscapeComment extension,
  and only allowing the CAPWAP session to be established if the

  extension does not represent the same role as the device validating
  the certificate.  For instance, a WTP MUST NOT accept a certificate
  whose NetscapeComment field is set to "CAPWAP WTP Device
  Certificate".


Using the "NetscapeComment extension" is not appropriate.

3) Selfsigned CERTs, CA CERTs, and validity checking
I didn't see anything about whether or not the CERTs
were selfsigned. And if not selfsigned, who would sign them.

Also, how would a limited resource WTP verify an AC's cert?
What if the WTP had no realtime clock (or a realtime clock
with an unknown certainty)?

4) Common Name in a WTP's CERT
I believe that the common name on the WTP's CERT

must be the WTP's ID (which would be either the serial
number or "base MAC address"), and should be provided
as a parameter on the join.


Two small, but important issues are:
1) It should be OK for the clock on a WTP to be "wacky",
  due to having no battery backed up clock, the battery
  going bad, the clock never set properly. On the other
  hand, an AC's clock should be set pretty accurately.
  I't not sure that the recommendations support this
  scenario. In general, want to support:
    0) WTPs with no management interface (other than CAPWAP)
    1) first time use of WTP after being manufactured
    2) continued use of WTP after long time operation
    3) continued use in short term deployments (such
        as WiFi network used by a Circus that moves from
        town to town (setting up and tearing down for
        for each move), or for the WiFi network used
        at conferences (such as the IETF).
2) The new text suggests the common name in the format
  "01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET" for WTPs. And implies
  that "DOMAIN.NET <http://domain.net/>" is the "administrative domain".
  To me, "administrative domain" implies the user
  of the WTP. But, I believe that the WTP manufacturer
  must be required to generate a CERT (and the WTP
  should come "preloaded" with the CERT), and the user
  of the WTP should not have to create the WTP CERT.
  (By the way, not sure how long the CERT should be
  valid.) Thus, I see no need or desire for
   "@DOMAIN.NET <http://domain.net/>" added to the common name, and suggest
  that it be removed. (Also, I think that we have
  now a new requirement to be able via CAPWAP to
  replace the WTP's CERT with another, and may be
  to add CA CERTs for the AC's CERT chain. Also,
  what is the min depth that a WTP should support?)

So, it appears to me that the following changes
are required to CAPWAP-01:
 1) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be selfsigned,
    and MUST have a common name of the ASCII
    of the MAC address (or other unique ID,
    such as serial number)
 2) The Join Request must be updated to include
    the common name as a message element
 3) specify that WTPs must continue even when it
    believes its CERT or the AC's CERT is outside
    the time window
 4) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message
    to install an updated CERT for the WTP.
 5) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message
    to install a CA CERT.

On 6/15/06, Michael Montemurro <montemurro.michael@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> I've created issue 143 to deal with this problemm.
>
>
> On 6/15/06, Scott G Kelly <scott@hyperthought.com > wrote:
> >
> > Hi David,
> >
> > Like I said previously, I agree with pretty much everything Charles
> > said, so I won't re-iterate his points, and will instead simply add a
> > few comments below:
> >
> > David T. Perkins wrote:
> > > HI,
> > >
> > > Thank you for responding to my issues. It seems to me that
> > > we are not yet looking at the same problem. So let me try
> > > again.
> > >
> > > What I was trying to point out is that there are a few
> > > VERY common scenarios (use cases) where the clock on
> > > a WTP can be totally wrong. If a WTP is coded so that
> > > it will not continue and communicate with an AC when
> > > it thinks the AC's CERTs are outside the time window,
> > > (or it thinks that it's on CERTs are outside the time
> > > window) then you will have a useless device (a brick).
> > > In many (maybe most) deployments, it costs more to
> > > physically touch a WTP than the equipment cost of the WTP.
> > > At the Dallas IETF, there were APs that were "somewhere"
> > > in the ceiling not doing any useful work, but sending
> > > out beacons with their config'ed SSID because it was
> > > too expensive to find them, and take them down. It
> > > was more cost effective to just new new APs.
> > >
> > > For an AC, it's clock must be accurate,
> > > and it would be OK for it to not proceed if it believes
> > > its CERTs are outside their time window. But, the
> > > CAPWAP protocol should allow an AC to establish
> > > a session with a WTP that has a WACKY clock (and
> > > even a CERT that has expired). NOTE: the AC clock
> > > must be pretty accurate for management (such as
> > > logs) to be useful (or work). The CAPWAP protocol has
> > > support to set the WTP's clock. But it doesn't have support
> > > to update a CERT in a WTP. It seems like this is
> > > needed.
> > >
> > > Assume the clocks are OK, now lets talk about WTP
> > > CERT validation by the AC. This wasn't addressed, but
> > > I believe that WTP CERTs MUST be signed by the
> > > WTP manufacturer, or one of the WELL KNOWN certification
> > > authorities. Adding the CA CERTs in an AC is done through
> > > means outside of CAPWAP (such as via the CLI
> > > on the AC). Thus, WTP CERTs MUST NOT be selfsigned.
> > > And, I believe that the WTPs CERTs should have
> > > for the common name the ASCII of MAC address,
> > > or other unique ID of the WTP (and this must be provided
> > > in the Join Request message). I didn't understand
> > > in the previous text, nor in your message below
> > > why the common name would have a suffix of
> > > "@DOMAIN.NET".
> > >
> > > Now lets talk about AC CERT validation by the WTP.
> > > The CERT for the AC can be created by the AC
> > > manufacturer, the user, or 3rd party. It could
> > > be selfsigned, or have a chain from the manufacturer
> > > or a WELL KNOWN CA. Given this, it will be difficult
> > > for a WTP to verify a AC CERT, at least the first
> > > time. This is just a "leap of faith" if the CERT
> > > cannot be verified. After this first connection,
> > > the AC through the CAPWAP protocol could configure
> > > the WTP with the needed CA CERT(s). However, there
> > > may be some WTPs that have no additional persistent
> > > storage for these CERTs.
> > >
> > > So, it appears to me that the following changes
> > > are required to CAPWAP-01:
> > >   1) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be selfsigned,
> > >      and MUST have a common name of the ASCII
> > >      of the MAC address (or other unique ID,
> > >      such as serial number)
> >
> > While we may not think self-signing is a good idea for our typical
> > deployment models, I'm not sure we have to say you MUST NOT do this, but
> > I'll give this some more thought.
> >
> > >   2) The Join Request must be updated to include
> > >      the common name as a message element
> >
> > What is your objective with this requirement?
> >
> > >   3) specify that WTPs must continue even when it
> > >      believes its CERT or the AC's CERT is outside
> > >      the time window
> >
> > Charles addressed this.
> >
> > >   4) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message
> > >      to install an updated CERT for the WTP.
> > >   5) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message
> > >      to install a CA CERT.
> >
> > I agree that we should discuss this, but I'm a little leary of taking on
> >
> > the task of fully specifying every nuance of cert use and mgmt.
> > Remember, the ipsec group spun out a whole new wg to handle this
> > particular problem. It's complicated.
> >
> > What we're trying to do in the base protocol is come up with minimal and
> >
> > sufficient guidelines to get people going. I think cert mgmt and usage
> > could be revisited in detail later, perhaps under a new charter, but
> > that we might want to consciously avoid getting too bogged down in this
> > for rev 1.
> >
> > Scott
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
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> >
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> >
>
>
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<span class="gmail_quote"></span>All,<br>
<br>
Proposed resolutions for the several components of Issue 143 are included below.<br>
Issue 143 is also copied below.<br>
<br>
Comments please.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Dorothy<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<span class="q"><br>
1) It should be OK for the clock on a WTP to be &quot;wacky&quot;,<br>
 &nbsp; due to having no battery backed up clock, the battery<br>
 &nbsp; going bad, the clock never set properly. On the other<br>
 &nbsp; hand, an AC's clock should be set pretty accurately.<br>
 &nbsp; I't not sure that the recommendations support this<br>
 &nbsp; scenario. In general, want to support:<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; 0) WTPs with no management interface (other than CAPWAP)<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; 1) first time use of WTP after being manufactured<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; 2) continued use of WTP after long time operation<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; 3) continued use in short term deployments (such<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; as WiFi network used by a Circus that moves from<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; town to town (setting up and tearing down for<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; for each move), or for the WiFi network used<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; at conferences (such as the IETF).<br>
<br></span>
Proposed resolution: Adopt Charles' Clancy's recommendation to <br>
Replace the following text:<span class="q"><br>
<br>
&nbsp;Proper validation of certificates typically requires checking to<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; ensure the certificate has not yet expired.&nbsp; If devices have a real-<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; time clock, they SHOULD verify the certificate validity dates.&nbsp; If no<br></span><span class="q">
&nbsp;&nbsp; real-time clock is available, the device SHOULD attempt to determine<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; the current time using NTP prior to certificate validation.&nbsp; If<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; neither is available, devices SHOULD verify that the start validity<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; date of its peer's certificate is less than its own certificate's<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; expiration date, and its peer's expiration date is greater than its<br></span>
&nbsp;&nbsp; own start date.&nbsp; Note that failure to check a certificate's temporal<span class="q"><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; validity can make a device vulnerable to man-in-the-middle attacks<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; launched using compromised, expired certificates, and therefore<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; devices should make every effort to perform this validation.<br>
<br>
<br>
with<br>
<br>
<br>
<span>Proper validation of certificates typically requires checking to<br> &nbsp; &nbsp;ensure the certificate has not yet expired. &nbsp;If devices have a<br> &nbsp; &nbsp;real-time clock, they SHOULD verify the certificate validity dates.
<br></span>
<div style="direction: ltr;"> &nbsp; &nbsp;If no real-time clock is available, the device SHOULD make a<br> &nbsp; &nbsp;best-effort attempt to validate the certificate validity dates<br> &nbsp; &nbsp;through other means. &nbsp;Failure to check a certificate's temporal
<br></div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span> &nbsp; &nbsp;validity can make a device vulnerable to man-in-the-middle attacks<br> &nbsp; &nbsp;launched using compromised, expired certificates, and therefore<br> &nbsp; &nbsp;devices should make every effort to perform this validation.
</span></div></span>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<span class="q"><br>
<br>
2) The new text suggests the common name in the format<br>
 &nbsp; &quot;<a href="mailto:01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET</a>&quot; for WTPs. And implies<br>
 &nbsp; that &quot;<a href="http://domain.net/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">DOMAIN.NET</a>&quot; is the &quot;administrative domain&quot;.<br>
 &nbsp; To me, &quot;administrative domain&quot; implies the user<br>
 &nbsp; of the WTP. But, I believe that the WTP manufacturer<br>
 &nbsp; must be required to generate a CERT (and the WTP<br>
 &nbsp; should come &quot;preloaded&quot; with the CERT), and the user<br>
 &nbsp; of the WTP should not have to create the WTP CERT.<br>
 &nbsp; (By the way, not sure how long the CERT should be<br>
 &nbsp; valid.) Thus, I see no need or desire for<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;@<a href="http://domain.net/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">DOMAIN.NET</a>&quot; added to the common name, and suggest<br>
 &nbsp; that it be removed. (Also, I think that we have<br>
 &nbsp; now a new requirement to be able via CAPWAP to<br>
 &nbsp; replace the WTP's CERT with another, and may be<br>
 &nbsp; to add CA CERTs for the AC's CERT chain. Also,<br>
 &nbsp; what is the min depth that a WTP should support?)<br>
<br></span>
Proposed Resolution:<br>
Adopt David's suggestion to drop the @<a href="http://DOMAIN.NET" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">DOMAIN.NET</a> and<br>
add a sentence describing the storage requirements on the WTP and AC:<br>
<br>
Change from:<span class="q"><br>
<br>
&nbsp; Another important part of certificate authentication is binding a<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; certificate to a particular device.&nbsp; There are many ways to<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; accomplish this.&nbsp; CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the certificate common<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; followed by an @ symbol, and then an administrative domain.&nbsp; For<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; example, <a href="mailto:01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET</a>.&nbsp; During authentication,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; devices SHOULD ensure that the MAC matches the MAC specified in the<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; CAPWAP header, and that the domain in both the AC and WTP<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; certificates match.<br>
<br></span>
to <span class="q"><br>
&nbsp; Another important part of certificate authentication is binding a<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp; certificate to a particular device.&nbsp; There are many ways to<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp; accomplish this.&nbsp; CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the certificate common<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp; name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX,<br></span>
&nbsp;&nbsp; for example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab.&nbsp; During authentication,<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp; devices SHOULD ensure that the MAC address matches the MAC<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; address&nbsp; specified in the CAPWAP header. If this mechanism is used, the ACs SHOULD<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; maintain list of all authorized WTP MAC addresses and the WTP SHOULD<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; save the AC credential or credential identifier.<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<span class="q"><br>
3) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be selfsigned,<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; and MUST have a common name of the ASCII<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; of the MAC address (or other unique ID,<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; such as serial number)<br>
<br></span>
Proposed resolution: <br>
No change to the text regarding use of self-signed certs. While the use<br>
of self-signed certs may not<br>
be widespread,&nbsp; there isn't a compelling need to preclude their<br>
use in a CAPWAP application. <br>
<br>
Change the text to require that WTP certs MUST have a<br>
common mane of the ASCII of the MAC address:<br>
<br>
from:<br>
<span class="q">CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the certificate common<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp; name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX,<br></span>
&nbsp;&nbsp; for example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab.<br>
<br>
to<br>
<br>
<span class="q">Specificaiton of the certificate common<br>

&nbsp;&nbsp; name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX,<br></span>
&nbsp;&nbsp; for example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab is REQUIRED for use with the CAPWAP protocol.<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
&nbsp; 4)&nbsp; The Join Request must be updated to include<span class="q"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; the common name as a message element<br>
<br></span>
Proposed resolution: No change to the text. The join request<br>currenly includes the BSSID. Also, since the JOIN occurs inside the DTLS tunnel, it is<br>
&nbsp;implicitly bound to the MAC (assuming certs were used for authentication, and <br>
this is N/A for preshared key authentication).<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<span class="q"><br>
&nbsp; 5) specify that WTPs must continue even when it<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; believes its CERT or the AC's CERT is outside<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; the time window<br>
<br></span>
Proposed resolution: No change to the document.<span class="q"><br>
That seems equivalent to mandating WTPs never validate timestamps on any<br>
AC certs. &nbsp;What if the WTP has a real-time clock and actually CAN<br>
distinguish between good and bad certs?<br></span>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
.<br>
<span>&nbsp;6) Tthe CAPWAP protocol must have a new message<span class="q"><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; to install an updated CERT for the WTP.<br><br></span></span>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Proposed resolution: Defer for consideration in the next version of CAPWAP; <br>
the mechanisms for certificate distribution and management are<br>
quite complex re: certifcate formats, content, generation etc. <br></div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<span class="q"><br>
<br>&nbsp;7) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; to install a CA CERT.<br>
<br></span>
</span>Proposed resolution: Defer for consideration in the next version of CAPWAP; <br>

the mechanisms for certificate distribution and management are<br>

quite complex re: certifcate formats, content, management.<br>
</div>
<br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Issue 143: <div><span class="e" id="q_10e096825035f350_26"><br>
<br>
<pre>1) Cipher Suites for CERTS<br>CAPWAP-01 has the following cipher suites specified:<br>TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA,<br>TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA, and<br>TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA<br><br>The above is a mistake, and the following should be used:
<br><br>TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA,<br>TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA, and<br>TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA<br><br>2) CERT usage type:<br>CAPWAP-01 has the folllwing about CERTS:<br>  <a href="http://2.4.4.3" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
2.4.4.3<br></a>.  Certificate Usage<br><br>  Validation of the certificates by the AC and WTP is required so that<br>  only an AC may perform the functions of an AC and that only a WTP may<br>  perform the functions of a WTP.  This restriction of functions to the
<br><br>  AC or WTP requires that the certificates used by the AC MUST be<br>  distinguishable from the certificate used by the WTP.  To accomplish<br>  this differentiation, the x.509v3 certificates MUST include the<br>  Extensions field [11] and MUST include the NetscapeComment [15]
<br><br>  extension.<br><br>  For an AC, the value of the NetscapeComment extension MUST be the<br>  string &quot;CAPWAP AC Device Certificate&quot;.  For a WTP, the value of the<br>  NetscapeComment extension MUST be the string &quot;CAPWAP WTP Device
<br><br>  Certificate&quot;.<br><br>  Part of the CAPWAP certificate validation process includes ensuring<br>  that the proper string is included in the NetscapeComment extension,<br>  and only allowing the CAPWAP session to be established if the
<br><br>  extension does not represent the same role as the device validating<br>  the certificate.  For instance, a WTP MUST NOT accept a certificate<br>  whose NetscapeComment field is set to &quot;CAPWAP WTP Device<br>
  Certificate&quot;.<br><br><br>Using the &quot;NetscapeComment extension&quot; is not appropriate.<br><br>3) Selfsigned CERTs, CA CERTs, and validity checking<br>I didn't see anything about whether or not the CERTs<br>were selfsigned. And if not selfsigned, who would sign them.
<br><br>Also, how would a limited resource WTP verify an AC's cert?<br>What if the WTP had no realtime clock (or a realtime clock<br>with an unknown certainty)?<br><br>4) Common Name in a WTP's CERT<br>I believe that the common name on the WTP's CERT
<br><br>must be the WTP's ID (which would be either the serial<br>number or &quot;base MAC address&quot;), and should be provided<br>as a parameter on the join.</pre></span></div><div><span class="e" id="q_10e096825035f350_27">

<br>
Two small, but important issues are:<br>
1) It should be OK for the clock on a WTP to be &quot;wacky&quot;,<br>
 &nbsp; due to having no battery backed up clock, the battery<br>
 &nbsp; going bad, the clock never set properly. On the other<br>
 &nbsp; hand, an AC's clock should be set pretty accurately.<br>
 &nbsp; I't not sure that the recommendations support this<br>
 &nbsp; scenario. In general, want to support:<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; 0) WTPs with no management interface (other than CAPWAP)<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; 1) first time use of WTP after being manufactured<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; 2) continued use of WTP after long time operation<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; 3) continued use in short term deployments (such<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; as WiFi network used by a Circus that moves from<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; town to town (setting up and tearing down for<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; for each move), or for the WiFi network used<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; at conferences (such as the IETF).<br>
2) The new text suggests the common name in the format<br>
 &nbsp; &quot;<a href="mailto:01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET</a>&quot; for WTPs. And implies<br>
 &nbsp; that &quot;<a href="http://domain.net/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">DOMAIN.NET</a>&quot; is the &quot;administrative domain&quot;.<br>
 &nbsp; To me, &quot;administrative domain&quot; implies the user<br>
 &nbsp; of the WTP. But, I believe that the WTP manufacturer<br>
 &nbsp; must be required to generate a CERT (and the WTP<br>
 &nbsp; should come &quot;preloaded&quot; with the CERT), and the user<br>
 &nbsp; of the WTP should not have to create the WTP CERT.<br>
 &nbsp; (By the way, not sure how long the CERT should be<br>
 &nbsp; valid.) Thus, I see no need or desire for<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;@<a href="http://domain.net/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">DOMAIN.NET</a>&quot; added to the common name, and suggest<br>
 &nbsp; that it be removed. (Also, I think that we have<br>
 &nbsp; now a new requirement to be able via CAPWAP to<br>
 &nbsp; replace the WTP's CERT with another, and may be<br>
 &nbsp; to add CA CERTs for the AC's CERT chain. Also,<br>
 &nbsp; what is the min depth that a WTP should support?)<br><br></span></div><span class="q">
So, it appears to me that the following changes<br>
are required to CAPWAP-01:<br>
 &nbsp;1) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be selfsigned,<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; and MUST have a common name of the ASCII<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; of the MAC address (or other unique ID,<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; such as serial number)<br></span><span class="q">
 &nbsp;2) The Join Request must be updated to include<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; the common name as a message element<br></span><span class="q">
 &nbsp;3) specify that WTPs must continue even when it<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; believes its CERT or the AC's CERT is outside<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; the time window<br></span><span class="q">
 &nbsp;4) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; to install an updated CERT for the WTP.<br>
 &nbsp;5) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; to install a CA CERT.<br>
<br></span><div><span class="e" id="q_10e096825035f350_32"><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 6/15/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Michael Montemurro</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
montemurro.michael@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>All,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I've created issue <span name="st">143</span> to deal with this problemm.<br><br>&nbsp;</div><div><span>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 6/15/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Scott G Kelly</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:scott@hyperthought.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">scott@hyperthought.com
</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Hi David,<br><br>Like I said previously, I agree with pretty much everything Charles<br>said, so I won't re-iterate his points, and will instead simply add a
<br>few comments below:<br><br>David T. Perkins wrote:<br>&gt; HI,<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Thank you for responding to my issues. It seems to me that<br>&gt; we are not yet looking at the same problem. So let me try<br>&gt; again.
<br>&gt;<br>&gt; What I was trying to point out is that there are a few<br>&gt; VERY common scenarios (use cases) where the clock on<br>&gt; a WTP can be totally wrong. If a WTP is coded so that<br>&gt; it will not continue and communicate with an AC when
<br>&gt; it thinks the AC's CERTs are outside the time window,<br>&gt; (or it thinks that it's on CERTs are outside the time<br>&gt; window) then you will have a useless device (a brick).<br>&gt; In many (maybe most) deployments, it costs more to
<br>&gt; physically touch a WTP than the equipment cost of the WTP.<br>&gt; At the Dallas IETF, there were APs that were &quot;somewhere&quot;<br>&gt; in the ceiling not doing any useful work, but sending<br>&gt; out beacons with their config'ed SSID because it was
<br>&gt; too expensive to find them, and take them down. It<br>&gt; was more cost effective to just new new APs.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; For an AC, it's clock must be accurate,<br>&gt; and it would be OK for it to not proceed if it believes
<br>&gt; its CERTs are outside their time window. But, the<br>&gt; CAPWAP protocol should allow an AC to establish<br>&gt; a session with a WTP that has a WACKY clock (and<br>&gt; even a CERT that has expired). NOTE: the AC clock
<br>&gt; must be pretty accurate for management (such as<br>&gt; logs) to be useful (or work). The CAPWAP protocol has<br>&gt; support to set the WTP's clock. But it doesn't have support<br>&gt; to update a CERT in a WTP. It seems like this is
<br>&gt; needed.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Assume the clocks are OK, now lets talk about WTP<br>&gt; CERT validation by the AC. This wasn't addressed, but<br>&gt; I believe that WTP CERTs MUST be signed by the<br>&gt; WTP manufacturer, or one of the WELL KNOWN certification
<br>&gt; authorities. Adding the CA CERTs in an AC is done through<br>&gt; means outside of CAPWAP (such as via the CLI<br>&gt; on the AC). Thus, WTP CERTs MUST NOT be selfsigned.<br>&gt; And, I believe that the WTPs CERTs should have
<br>&gt; for the common name the ASCII of MAC address,<br>&gt; or other unique ID of the WTP (and this must be provided<br>&gt; in the Join Request message). I didn't understand<br>&gt; in the previous text, nor in your message below
<br>&gt; why the common name would have a suffix of<br>&gt; &quot;@<a href="http://DOMAIN.NET" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">DOMAIN.NET</a>&quot;.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Now lets talk about AC CERT validation by the WTP.
<br>&gt; The CERT for the AC can be created by the AC
<br>&gt; manufacturer, the user, or 3rd party. It could<br>&gt; be selfsigned, or have a chain from the manufacturer<br>&gt; or a WELL KNOWN CA. Given this, it will be difficult<br>&gt; for a WTP to verify a AC CERT, at least the first
<br>&gt; time. This is just a &quot;leap of faith&quot; if the CERT<br>&gt; cannot be verified. After this first connection,<br>&gt; the AC through the CAPWAP protocol could configure<br>&gt; the WTP with the needed CA CERT(s). However, there
<br>&gt; may be some WTPs that have no additional persistent<br>&gt; storage for these CERTs.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; So, it appears to me that the following changes<br>&gt; are required to CAPWAP-01:<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be selfsigned,
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;and MUST have a common name of the ASCII<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;of the MAC address (or other unique ID,<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;such as serial number)<br><br>While we may not think self-signing is a good idea for our typical<br>


deployment models, I'm not sure we have to say you MUST NOT do this, but<br>I'll give this some more thought.<br><br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2) The Join Request must be updated to include<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the common name as a message element
<br>
<br>What is your objective with this requirement?<br><br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3) specify that WTPs must continue even when it<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;believes its CERT or the AC's CERT is outside<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the time window<br><br>Charles addressed this.
<br><br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;to install an updated CERT for the WTP.<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;to install a CA CERT.<br><br>I agree that we should discuss this, but I'm a little leary of taking on
<br>the task of fully specifying every nuance of cert use and mgmt.<br>Remember, the ipsec group spun out a whole new wg to handle this<br>particular problem. It's complicated.<br><br>What we're trying to do in the base protocol is come up with minimal and
<br>sufficient guidelines to get people going. I think cert mgmt and usage<br>could be revisited in detail later, perhaps under a new charter, but<br>that we might want to consciously avoid getting too bogged down in this
<br>for rev 1.<br><br>Scott<br><br>_________________________________________________________________<br>To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<br><a href="http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">


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------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C6E717.D869BC30--




From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 03 21:44:25 2006
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
Thread-Index: Acbm5GWvbPQ30Bi0Rreg76ey9cp8aAAb98TQ
From: "Cheng Hong" <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>
To: "Margaret Wasserman" <margaret@thingmagic.com>,
	"Charles Clancy" <clancy@cs.umd.edu>
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Cc: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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Dear all,

We have been dragged into the discussion of the virtue of KeyRSC value
(which should have been done in IEEE802.1 & 11i - a liaison to ask those
experts why the KeyRSC is incorporated into their protocol in the first
place), and the real problem about the CAPWAP protocol design has been
put aside. 

So, is the conclusion now about demanding all CAPWAP compliant AC to
always set KeyRSC to zero? (This is about the interoperability of the
CAPWAP devices.) Is this the consensus of the WG? 

Will the disclaimer clearly state that by setting KeyRSC to zero the
replay mechanism provided by 802.11i will be turned off and possible
replay possibility has been increased?


cheers

Cheng Hong
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 8:05 PM
> To: Charles Clancy
> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> Considerations
> 
> 
> Hi Charles,
> 
> <chair hat=off>
> 
> > If the consensus is to use RSC=0, then I think a disclaimer 
> statement 
> > should be added to the security considerations section about the 
> > replay possibility in multicast protocols.  Overall this is 
> probably 
> > sufficient.
> 
> This does seem like the simplest approach.  So, if there is 
> no objection from our security advisors (you and Scott 
> Kelly), then I'm for it.
> 
> </chair>
> 
> Margaret
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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Thread-Topic: discovery interval timer question
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From: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" <ssmitha@cisco.com>
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All,
=20
Idle to Discovery transition talks about Discovery Interval timer:
=20
 Idle to Discovery (a): This transition occurs once device
      initialization is complete.
=20
      WTP: The WTP enters the Discovery state prior to transmitting the
         first Discovery Request message (see Section 5.1).  Upon
         entering this state, the WTP sets the DiscoveryInterval timer
         (see Section 4.5).  The WTP resets the DiscoveryCount counter
         to zero (0) (see Section 4.6).  The WTP also clears all
         information from ACs it may have received during a previous
         Discovery phase.

=20
But DiscoveryInterval timer is described as:
=20

4.5.1.  DiscoveryInterval
=20
   The minimum time, in seconds, that a WTP MUST wait after receiving a
   Discovery Response, before initiating a DTLS handshake.
=20
Should Idle to Discovery actually be based on MaxDiscoveryInterval
timer? Also, there is mention of DiscoveryInterval timer even in
transition from Discovery to Discovery.
=20
4.5.6.  MaxDiscoveryInterval
=20
   The maximum time allowed between sending discovery requests from the
   interface, in seconds.  Must be no less than 2 seconds and no greater
   than 180 seconds.
=20
   Default: 20 seconds.
=20
Thanks
Smitha



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charset=3Dus-ascii">
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006><SPAN=20
class=3D023223002-04102006>All,</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006><SPAN=20
class=3D023223002-04102006></SPAN></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006>Idle to =
Discovery=20
transition talks about Discovery Interval timer:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN =
class=3D979422410-03102006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN =
class=3D979422410-03102006>&nbsp;Idle to=20
Discovery (a): This transition occurs once=20
device<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; initialization is=20
complete.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D979422410-03102006>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WTP: The WTP =
enters the=20
Discovery state prior to transmitting=20
the<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; first Discovery =
Request=20
message (see Section 5.1).&nbsp;=20
Upon<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; entering this =
state,=20
the WTP sets the DiscoveryInterval=20
timer<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (see Section=20
4.5).&nbsp; The WTP resets the DiscoveryCount=20
counter<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to zero (0) =
(see=20
Section 4.6).&nbsp; The WTP also clears=20
all<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; information from =
ACs it=20
may have received during a=20
previous<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Discovery=20
phase.<BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN =
class=3D979422410-03102006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006>But =
DiscoveryInterval timer=20
is described as:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN =
class=3D979422410-03102006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006><FONT =
face=3DArial></FONT><BR><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff>4.5.1.&nbsp; DiscoveryInterval</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff>&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
The minimum time, in seconds, that a WTP MUST wait after receiving=20
a<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Discovery Response, before initiating a DTLS=20
handshake.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#000000>Should Idle to Discovery actually be based on =
MaxDiscoveryInterval=20
timer? Also, there is mention of DiscoveryInterval timer even in =
transition from=20
Discovery to Discovery.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#000000></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN =
class=3D979422410-03102006>4.5.6.&nbsp;=20
MaxDiscoveryInterval</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN =
class=3D979422410-03102006>&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
The maximum time allowed between sending discovery requests from=20
the<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; interface, in seconds.&nbsp; Must be no less than 2 =
seconds=20
and no greater<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; than 180 seconds.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D+0><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Default: 20 seconds.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Thanks</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Smitha</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></DIV></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Oct 04 02:36:45 2006
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Subject: [Capwap] One description issue for Type of message element TLV
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  The following figure (In section 4.4) is different with the context.

  The type is 16bits, but the figure is 32bits

Thanks
Michael

   The format of a message element uses the TLV format shown here:

       0                   1                   2                   3
     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |              Type                                             |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |   Length                      |  Value ...
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-



   Where Type (16 bit) identifies the character of the information
   carried in the Value field and Length (16 bits) indicates the number
   of bytes in the Value field.  Type field values are allocated as
   follows:

              Usage                              Type Values

   CAPWAP Protocol Message Elements                1-1023
   IEEE 802.11 Message Elements                    1024-2047
   Reserved for Future Use                         2048 - 65024


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Hi,

ClAvLIS

AMBvlEN

VALvlUM

VlAvGRA

Economize 60% http://www.yiavlavieb.info
=20
  _____ =20


militaristic status quo and war forever. Who perhaps prefer a future
didnt understand it-yet I think that it affected you emotionally.
enlist others of like age and mind.



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<P>AMBvlEN</P>
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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><HR></DIV>
<P>militaristic status quo and war forever. Who perhaps prefer  a  =
future<BR>
didnt understand it-yet I think that it affected you emotionally.<BR>
enlist others of like age and mind.<BR></P>
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Hi Dorothy,=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Dorothy Stanley <ds=
tanley1389@gmail.com>=0ATo: Bob O'Hara (boohara) <boohara@cisco.com>=0ACc: =
Saravanan Govindan <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>; Cheng Hong <Hong.=
Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>; capwap@frascone.com=0ASent: Tuesday, October 3, 20=
06 5:09:55 PM=0ASubject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Co=
nsiderations=0A=0ABob, all,=0A=0AComments inline.=0A=0AThanks,=0A=0ADorothy=
=0A=0A=0AOn 9/29/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) <boohara@cisco.com> wrote:=0A =0A=
Again, your proposal does not eliminate any attack mechanism and does not a=
dd any functionality to the protocol, only cost and complexity.  A replayed=
 frame will be discarded by the MAC, using the normal duplicate frame detec=
tion mechanisms.  See section 8.3.3.3.2 of 802.11i (where the frame sequenc=
e number is part of the additional authenticated data) and section 9.2.9 of=
 802.11-1999 for the description of these functions.  And PLEASE read 802.1=
1 and 802.11i before again asserting that this proposal is necessary.=0A=0A=
=0AIn Section 8.3.3.3.2, the AAD construction for CCMP  includes the frame =
sequence control field =96 and the sequence number, =0Abits 4-15 of the fra=
me equence control field - is masked to 0 in the AAD; so that only the frag=
ment number is protected.=0AThe TKIP MIC protects neither the fragment numb=
er nor the sequence number of  the 802.11 frame sequence control field, as =
the TKIP MIC=0Ais MSDU based.=0A=0AIn 9.2.9, Duplicate detection and recove=
ry, the text indicates that a STA may omit =0Abroadcast/multicast frame dat=
a from its duplicate detection cache; if bc/mc data is not included, then n=
ormal=0Aduplicate frame detection will not apply.=0A As I said several emai=
ls ago, the ONLY effect of using zero as the value for the KeyRSC is that t=
he 802.11 chipset in the STA (client) will have to receive the frame, attem=
pt to decrypt it, and validate the MIC.  This must be done for EVERY frame =
received, whether it is a replayed frame or not.  This set of functions is =
performed in the 802.11 STA chipset and does not consume any additional res=
ources of the STA.  So, the attack, if it can even be characterized as an a=
ttack, is no more effective at DOSing the STA than sending it any other fra=
me.=0A=0AThe MIC calculation, and encrpt/decrypt is typically performed in =
hardware in the chipset for CCMP.=0AHowever, the TKIP MIC calculation is ty=
pically performed in the driver, in software.=0A=0AIf a STA does not have t=
he proper RSC value, there is a "window of vulnerability" before it receive=
s=0Athe correct value, during=0Awhich the STA can receive and process repla=
yed  bc/mc frames. The magnitude of the DOS aspect of this=0Adepends on the=
 STA crypto implementation - hw/ccmp - virtually no impact or sw/tkip-some =
small impact.=0AThe larger issue is that the replay protection mechanism gu=
arrantees provided by 802.11i are lost.=0A--snip=0A=3D=3D>=0AAre you favori=
ng a solution Charles sketched, i.e. WTP sends keyRSC value during authenti=
cation/reassociation of each new STA so that AC can use the correct (or clo=
se to correct) value in Message 3 of 4-way handshake and Message 1 of group=
 key handshake?=0ACan you clarify this?=0A=0AThanks=0ABehcet
--0-2001680706-1159975210=:99098
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;f=
ont-size:12pt"><DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: courier, monaco,=
 monospace, sans-serif">Hi Dorothy,<BR><BR>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">----- Original Mess=
age ----<BR>From: Dorothy Stanley &lt;dstanley1389@gmail.com&gt;<BR>To: Bob=
 O'Hara (boohara) &lt;boohara@cisco.com&gt;<BR>Cc: Saravanan Govindan &lt;S=
aravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com&gt;; Cheng Hong &lt;Hong.Cheng@sg.panaso=
nic.com&gt;; capwap@frascone.com<BR>Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2006 5:09:55 =
PM<BR>Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Consideratio=
ns<BR><BR>Bob, all,<BR><BR>Comments inline.<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR><BR>Dorothy<B=
R><BR>=0A<DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 9/29/06, <B class=3Dgmail_sender=
name>Bob O'Hara (boohara)</B> &lt;<A href=3D"mailto:boohara@cisco.com" targ=
et=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>boohara@cisco.com</A>&gt; wrote:</SPAN>=0A<BLOCK=
QUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0=
.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">=0A<DIV>=0A<DIV dir=3Dltr al=
ign=3Dleft><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>=
&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=
=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Again, your proposal does not eliminate any attack mech=
anism and does not add any functionality to the protocol, only cost and com=
plexity.&nbsp; A replayed frame will be discarded by the MAC, using the nor=
mal duplicate frame detection mechanisms.&nbsp; See section </FONT></SPAN><=
SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>8.3.3.3.2 of 802.11i (wher=
e the frame sequence number is part of the additional authenticated data) a=
nd section 9.2.9 of 802.11-1999&nbsp;for the description of these functions=
.&nbsp; And PLEASE read 802.11 and 802.11i before again asserting that this=
 proposal is necessary.</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>=0A<DIV><BR>=
=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">In Section 8.3.3.3.2, the AAD construction for CCMP&nb=
sp; includes the frame sequence control field =96 and the sequence number, =
<BR>bits 4-15 of the frame equence control field - is masked to 0 in the AA=
D; so that only the fragment number is protected.</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT=
-SIZE: 12pt">The TKIP MIC protects neither the fragment number nor the sequ=
ence number of&nbsp; the 802.11 frame sequence control field, as the TKIP M=
IC<BR>is MSDU based.<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=
=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P class=3DMsoNor=
mal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"=
>In 9.2.9, Duplicate detection and recovery, the text indicates that a STA =
may omit <BR>broadcast/multicast frame data from its duplicate detection ca=
che; if bc/mc data is not included, then normal<BR>duplicate frame detectio=
n will not apply.</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Ti=
mes New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT=
><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>As I said several emails=
 ago, the ONLY effect of using zero as the value for the KeyRSC is that the=
 802.11 chipset in the STA (client) will have to receive the frame, attempt=
 to decrypt it, and validate the MIC.&nbsp; This must be done for EVERY fra=
me received, whether it is a replayed frame or not.&nbsp; This set of funct=
ions is performed in the 802.11 STA chipset and does not consume any additi=
onal resources of the STA.&nbsp; So, the attack, if it can even be characte=
rized as an attack, is no more effective at DOSing the STA than sending it =
any other frame.<BR></FONT></SPAN></P>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D=
"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The MIC calculat=
ion, and encrpt/decrypt is typically performed in hardware in the chipset f=
or CCMP.<BR>However, the TKIP MIC calculation is typically performed in the=
 driver, in software.<BR></SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT fa=
ce=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">If a STA do=
es not have the proper RSC value, there is a "window of vulnerability" befo=
re it receives<BR>the correct value, during<BR>which the STA can receive an=
d process replayed&nbsp; bc/mc frames. The magnitude of the DOS aspect of t=
his<BR>depends on the STA crypto implementation - hw/ccmp - virtually no im=
pact or sw/tkip-some small impact.<BR>The larger issue is that the replay p=
rotection mechanism guarrantees provided by 802.11i are lost.</SPAN></FONT>=
</P>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN s=
tyle=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">--snip</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><F=
ONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">=3D=
=3D&gt;</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Ro=
man" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Are you favoring a solution C=
harles sketched, i.e. WTP sends keyRSC value during authentication/reassoci=
ation of each new STA so that AC can use the correct (or close to correct) =
value in Message 3 of 4-way handshake and Message 1 of group key handshake?=
</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" si=
ze=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Can you clarify this?</SPAN></FONT><=
/P>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN st=
yle=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><FO=
NT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Thanks=
</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" si=
ze=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Behcet</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>=
</DIV></DIV></div></body></html>
--0-2001680706-1159975210=:99098--

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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:07:47 -0700
From: "Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>
To: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
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Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 204: More General wireless
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All,

Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components are
listed below.

Comments please.

Thanks,

Dorothy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) 4.4.38.  WTP Radio Information

Comment: As the section should be work for any wireless implement, I
suggest the
following value

 should be moved to 802.11 binding. The value should be defined by wireless
technology binding.

      1 - 802.11b:  An IEEE 802.11b radio.

      2 - 802.11a:  An IEEE 802.11a radio.

      4 - 802.11g:  An IEEE 802.11g radio.

      8 - 802.11n:  An IEEE 802.11n radio.

Proposed Resolution: Move the "need to know" the 802.11 technology specific
radio types to the 802.11 binding, modifying the WTP Radio Information element
as follows:

IEEE 802.11 Radio Information

   The IEEE 802.11 radio information message element is used to communicate the
   radio information for each IEEE 802.11 radio on the WTP.  The
Discovery Request message MUST
   include one such message element per radio in the WTP.  The Radio-
   Type field is used by the AC to determine which 802.11 technology
   specific binding is to be used with the WTP.

   The value contains two fields, as shown.

      0                   1                   2                   3
      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
     |   Radio ID    |           Radio Type                          |
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
     | Radio Type    |
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

   Type:  38 for WTP Radio Information

   Length:  5

   Radio ID:  The Radio Identifier, which typically refers to an
      interface index on the WTP

   Radio Type:  The type of IEEE 802.11 radio present.
      The following values are supported:

      1 - 802.11b:  An IEEE 802.11b radio.

      2 - 802.11a:  An IEEE 802.11a radio.

      4 - 802.11g:  An IEEE 802.11g radio.

      8 - 802.11n:  An IEEE 802.11n radio.

      0xOF - 802.11b, 802.11a, 802.11g and 802.11n:  The 4 radio types
         indicated are supported in the WTP.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2) 11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power

Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, as channel and
Tx power are
common parameters for RF management.

Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter
that TX power level is a common parameter for RF management; however the
IEEE 802.11 TX Power field values are defined as being the values
defined in IEEE 802.11Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table, and thus are not
extensible to other bindings. Expect that each binding will define
values relative to its definitions.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
3)  Add "WTP radio channel"

Comment: As per 2), we could define a TLV to report current channel
(AP to AC) or to
configure channel (AC to AP).

Now,. 11.9.12.  IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control and 11.9.5.  IEEE 802.11 Direct
Sequence Control

has channel configuration information.

But I think that a specific TLV for it is better. By this way, 4.4 will provide

more common parameter for any wireless technology.

     0                   1                   2                   3

        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

       |    Radio ID   |    Reserved   |        Current Channel       |

       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

The commenter suggests the following:

3)      Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4

The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind parameter
are common for any kind wireless binding.

I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part.

Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power
these kind Info should not be sent

during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio
configuration" is better.

If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message
should be suggested by protocol.

The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type,
Tx power, Channel, country code and so on.

For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.

The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way,
AC could configure WTP's RF parameter

and know current configuration on the WTP radio.

If this way, current "11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12.  IEEE
802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5.

IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE
802.11 related element.

 Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft.  While there may be common
elements, it's not clear that the
CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying the
common elements
across wireless systems.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4) 11.9.24.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Fail Alarm Indications

Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, it could be a
common event for
any wireless technology.

 Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commmenter
that a fail alarm indication could be a common event for
any wireless technology. Each radio technology may want to
have additional information reported with the event however. Not
sure there is sufficient benefit shown for a common defintiion at this point.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5) 11.9.1.  IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN

How about we rename "WLAN" as wireless service? By this way, we could achieve
abstract while make it work

for most wireless technology.

If it is ok, we could define "add wireless service, delete wireless service,
update wireless service" in the section 4.4.

Any wireless technology could add its specific parameter in the binding
section.


The commenter suggests a solution:

1)      Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless service",
and put it in the section 4.4

The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract than "WLAN".

Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep

Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode

these kinds common element (more element maybe put here).

While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding
identifier.

The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using

(Probably eventually managed by IANA)

Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft.
The IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN message element is 802.11 specific and used
together with several other message elements to define a WLAN service.

The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the
CAPWAP protocol to add a generic wireless service. It's not clear that
there are enough additional elements common to multiple wireless
services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6) 11.9.22.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service

As per 5), I think we could define "WTP Quality of Service"in the section 4.4.

Radio ID, Tag Packets and Queue Depth could be defined in the "WTP Quality of
Service".

While CWMin and so on could be defined in the IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of
Service.

The commenter suggests the following solution:

2) Rename "11.9.22.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as  "WTP Quality of
Service"

Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP
Quality of Service".

For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.

For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be
great.

Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft.
The IEEE 802.11 WTP QOS message element is 802.11 specific and is needed
to convey the CWMin , CWMax and other very specific 802.11 data.

The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the
CAPWAP protocol to include a "generic QOS" message element. It's not clear
that
there are enough elements common to multiple wireless
services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time.
There is at least 1 - the Tag packets type, which each binding can inlcude
if
desired.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7. Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as  "WTP Statistics" in the section 4.4

Comment: Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I
think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics"

could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like "RTS Success Count"
and so on.

For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.

Proposed resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter
that many of the statistics are common across wireless technologies.
However the IEEE 802.11 Statistics values are defined as being the values
defined in various IEEE 802.11 MIB variables and thus are not extensible to
other bindings. Expect that each binding will define values relative to its
definitions.

On 9/28/06, young <young@huawei-3com.com> wrote:
>
>  Hi Pat and all,
>
> I used to raise issue #204, and here intend to give solution.
>
> 1)      Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless service",
> and put it in the section 4.4
>
> The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract than "WLAN".
>
> Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep
>
> Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode
>
> these kinds common element (more element maybe put here).
>
> While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding
> identifier.
>
> The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using
>
> (Probably eventually managed by IANA)
>
>
>
>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
>        |    Radio ID   |    WLAN ID    |        MAC Mode    | Tunnel
> Mode       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
>        |             Wireless binding identifier                     |
>
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
>        |         Type                  |             Length            |
>
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
>        |                          Value...
>
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
> It is similar for "IEEE 802.11 deletes WLAN" and "IEEE 802.11 Update
> WLAN".
>
> * *
>
> 2) Rename "11.9.22.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as  "WTP Quality
> of Service"
>
> Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the
> "WTP Quality of Service".
>
> For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
>
> For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be
> great.
>
>
>
> 3)      Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4
>
> The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind
> parameter are common for any kind wireless binding.
>
> I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part.
>
> Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power
> these kind Info should not be sent
>
> during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio
> configuration" is better.
>
> If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message
> should be suggested by protocol.
>
> The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type,
> Tx power, Channel, country code and so on.
>
> For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
>
> The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this
> way, AC could configure WTP's RF parameter
>
> and know current configuration on the WTP radio.
>
> If this way, current "11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12.  IEEE
> 802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5.
>
> IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE
> 802.11 related element.
>
>
>
> 4)      Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as  "WTP Statistics" in the
> section 4.4
>
> Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I think most
> the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics"
>
> could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like "RTS Success
> Count" and so on.
>
> For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
>
>
>
> Any way, I thought many TLV will change their location as new CAPWAP will
> be divided into two parts.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> Richard  (Shiyang)
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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All,<br>
<br>
Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components are <br>
listed below.<br>
<br>
Comments please.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Dorothy<br><br>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<pre>1) 4.4.38.  WTP Radio Information<br><br>Comment: <span style="font-style: italic;">As the section should be work for any wireless implement, I suggest the </span><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
following value</span><br style="font-style: italic;"><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> should be moved to 802.11 binding. The value should be defined by wireless </span><br style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">technology binding.</span><br style="font-style: italic;"><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">      1 - 802.11b:  An IEEE 802.11b radio.</span><br style="font-style: italic;">
<br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">      2 - 802.11a:  An IEEE 802.11a radio.</span><br style="font-style: italic;"><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">      4 - 
802.11g:  An IEEE 802.11g radio.</span><br style="font-style: italic;"><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">      8 - 802.11n:  An IEEE 802.11n radio.</span><br><br>Proposed Resolution: Move the &quot;need to know&quot; the 
802.11 technology specific<br>radio types to the 802.11 binding, modifying the WTP Radio Information element<br>as follows:<br><br>IEEE 802.11 Radio Information<br><br>   The IEEE 802.11 radio information message element is used to communicate the
<br>   radio information for each IEEE 802.11 radio on the WTP.  The Discovery Request message MUST<br>   include one such message element per radio in the WTP.  The Radio-<br>   Type field is used by the AC to determine which 
802.11 technology<br>   specific binding is to be used with the WTP.<br><br>   The value contains two fields, as shown.<br><br>      0                   1                   2                   3<br>      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
<br>     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<br>     |   Radio ID    |           Radio Type                          |<br>     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
<br>     | Radio Type    |<br>     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<br><br>   Type:  38 for WTP Radio Information<br><br>   Length:  5<br><br>   Radio ID:  The Radio Identifier, which typically refers to an<br>      interface index on the WTP
<br><br>   Radio Type:  The type of IEEE 802.11 radio present.  <br>      The following values are supported:<br><br>      1 - 802.11b:  An IEEE 802.11b radio.<br><br>      2 - 802.11a:  An IEEE 802.11a radio.<br><br>      4 - 
802.11g:  An IEEE 802.11g radio.<br><br>      8 - 802.11n:  An IEEE 802.11n radio.<br><br>      0xOF - 802.11b, 802.11a, 802.11g and 802.11n:  The 4 radio types<br>         indicated are supported in the WTP.<br>&nbsp;<br>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<br>2) 11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power<br><br>Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, as channel and Tx power are <br>common parameters for RF management.<br><br>Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter
<br>that TX power level is a common parameter for RF management; however the<br>IEEE 802.11 TX Power field values are defined as being the values<br>defined in IEEE 802.11Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table, and thus are not<br>
extensible to other bindings. Expect that each binding will define<br>values relative to its definitions.<br>---------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>3)  Add "WTP radio channel"<br><br>
<span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Comment: </span>As per 2), we could define a TLV to report current channel (AP to AC) or to </span><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
configure channel (AC to AP).</span><br style="font-style: italic;"><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Now,. 11.9.12.  IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control and 11.9.5.  IEEE 802.11 Direct </span><br style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">Sequence Control</span><br style="font-style: italic;"><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">has channel configuration information. </span><br style="font-style: italic;">
<br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">But I think that a specific TLV for it is better. By this way, 4.4 will provide</span><br style="font-style: italic;"><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
more common parameter for any wireless technology.</span><br style="font-style: italic;"><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">     0                   1                   2                   3
</span><br style="font-style: italic;"><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1</span><br style="font-style: italic;"><br style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</span><br style="font-style: italic;"><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">       |    Radio ID   |    Reserved   |        Current Channel       |
</span><br style="font-style: italic;"><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</span><br><font face="Times New Roman" size="2">
<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US"><br>The commenter suggests the following:</span></font></pre>
<p style="margin-left: 18pt; text-indent: -18pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">3)<font face="Times New Roman" size="1"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></font><span lang="EN-US">Add "WTP RF Radio configuration"
in the section 4.4 </span></p>


<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on
these kind parameter are common for any kind wireless binding.</span></font></p>


<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part.</span></font></p>


<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio
Information", while Tx power these kind Info should not be sent </span></font></p>


<p style="text-indent: 5.25pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">during
discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio configuration"
is better.</span></font></p>


<p style="text-indent: 5.25pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">If keep them
in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message should be suggested
by protocol.</span></font></p>


<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">The TLV
of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type,
Tx power, Channel, country code and so on. </span></font></p>


<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">For any
binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.</span></font></p>


<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">The "WTP
RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way, AC
could configure WTP's RF parameter</span></font></p>


<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">and
know current configuration on the WTP radio.</span></font></p>


<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">If this
way, current "11.9.18.&nbsp; IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12.&nbsp;
IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5.&nbsp; </span></font></p>


<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">IEEE
802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE
802.11 related element.</span></font></p>


<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span lang="EN-US">&nbsp;Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft.&nbsp; While there may be common elements, it's not clear that the <br>
CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying the common elements<br>
across wireless systems. <br>
</span></font></p>
<pre><br>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>4) 11.9.24.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Fail Alarm Indications<br><br>Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, it could be a common event for 
<br>any wireless technology.<br><br> Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commmenter<br>that a fail alarm indication could be a common event for<br>any wireless technology. Each radio technology may want to
<br>have additional information reported with the event however. Not<br>sure there is sufficient benefit shown for a common defintiion at this point.<br>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<br>5) 11.9.1.  IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN<br style="font-style: italic;"><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">How about we rename "WLAN" as wireless service? By this way, we could achieve </span><br style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">abstract while make it work</span><br style="font-style: italic;"><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">for most wireless technology.</span><br style="font-style: italic;">
<br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">If it is ok, we could define "add wireless service, delete wireless service, </span><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">update wireless service" in the section 
4.4.</span><br style="font-style: italic;"><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Any wireless technology could add its specific parameter in the binding </span><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
section.</span><br style="font-style: italic;"><br><br>The commenter suggests a solution:<br><br></pre>
<p style="margin-left: 18pt; text-align: left; text-indent: -18pt;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">1)<font face="Times New Roman" size="1"><span>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></font></span></font><font face="Arial"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE
802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless service", and put it in the
section 4.4</span></font></p>


<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">The glossary "wireless
service" will be more abstract than "WLAN".</span></font></p>


<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">Refer to current "IEEE
802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep </span></font></p>


<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">Radio ID, service ID (rename
"WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode</span></font></p>


<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">these kinds common
element (more element maybe put here). </span></font></p>


<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">While for any specific
wireless binding could follow the <font color="black"><span style="color: black;">Wireless
binding identifier.</span></font></span></font></p>


<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;" lang="EN-US">The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding
are using</span></font></p>


<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;" lang="EN-US">(</span></font><font face="Arial"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">
Probably eventually managed by IANA)<br>
</span></font></p>
<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft.<br>
The IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN message element is 802.11 specific and used<br>
together with several other message elements to define a WLAN service.<br>
</span></font></p>
<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the <br>
CAPWAP protocol to add a generic wireless service. It's not clear that<br>
there are enough additional elements common to multiple wireless<br>
services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time.<br>
</span></font></p>
<pre><br><br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>6) 11.9.22.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service<br><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">As per 5), I think we could define "WTP Quality of Service"in the section 
4.4.</span><br style="font-style: italic;"><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Radio ID, Tag Packets and Queue Depth could be defined in the "WTP Quality of </span><br style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">Service".</span><br style="font-style: italic;"><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">While CWMin and so on could be defined in the IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of 
</span><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Service.</span><br><br></pre>
<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">The commenter suggests the following solution:<br>
</span></font></p>
<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">2)
Rename "11.9.22.&nbsp; IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as &nbsp;"WTP
Quality of Service"</span></font></p>


<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">Same
idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP Quality
of Service".</span></font></p>


<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">For
any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.</span></font></p>


<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">For
Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be great.</span></font></p>
<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft.<br>
The IEEE 802.11 WTP QOS message element is 802.11 specific and is needed<br>
to convey the CWMin , CWMax and other very specific 802.11 data. <br>

</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the <br>
CAPWAP protocol to include a &quot;generic QOS&quot; message element. It's not clear that<br>
there are enough elements common to multiple wireless<br>
services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time.<br>
There is at least 1 - the Tag packets type, which each binding can inlcude if<br>
desired.<br>
</span></font></p>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<p style="margin-left: 18pt; text-indent: -18pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman" size="1"><span></span></font></span></font><span lang="EN-US">
7. Redefine "IEEE 802.11
Statistics" as &nbsp;"WTP Statistics" in the section 4.4 </span></p>


<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">Comment: Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer
protocol, I think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" </span></font></p>


<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">could be put on the section 4.4, except the element
like "RTS Success Count" and so on.</span></font></p>


<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to
suggest them.<br>
</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">Proposed resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter<br>
that many of the statistics are common across wireless technologies.<br>
However the IEEE 802.11 Statistics values are defined as being the values<br>
defined in various IEEE 802.11 MIB variables and thus are not extensible to<br>
other bindings. Expect that each binding will define values relative to its definitions.<br>
</span></font></p>
<br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 9/28/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">young</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:young@huawei-3com.com">young@huawei-3com.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">









<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="ZH-CN">

<div style="">

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">Hi Pat and all,</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">I used to raise issue
#<span id="st" name="st" class="st">204</span>, and here intend to give solution.</span></font></p>

<p style="margin-left: 18pt; text-align: left; text-indent: -18pt;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">1)<font face="Times New Roman" size="1"><span>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></font></span></font><font face="Arial"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE
802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless service", and put it in the
section 4.4</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">The glossary "wireless
service" will be more abstract than "WLAN".</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">Refer to current "IEEE
802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep </span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">Radio ID, service ID (rename
"WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">these kinds common
element (more element maybe put here). </span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">While for any specific
wireless binding could follow the <font color="black"><span style="color: black;">Wireless
binding identifier.</span></font></span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;" lang="EN-US">The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding
are using</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;" lang="EN-US">(</span></font><font face="Arial"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">
Probably eventually managed by IANA)</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</span></font></p>

<p style="margin-left: 35pt; text-align: left; text-indent: -35pt;" align="left"><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Radio
ID&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WLAN ID&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MAC Mode&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Tunnel
Mode&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
|&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;W</span></font><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">ireless binding identifier</span></font><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="EN-US">
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Type&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Length&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;|</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Value...</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">It
is similar for "IEEE 802.11 deletes WLAN" and "IEEE 802.11 Update
WLAN".</span></font></p>

<p><b><font color="#000032" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 50); font-weight: bold;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span></font></b></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">2)
Rename "11.9.22.&nbsp; IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as &nbsp;"WTP
Quality of Service"</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">Same
idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP Quality
of Service".</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">For
any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="EN-US">For
Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be great.</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p style="margin-left: 18pt; text-indent: -18pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">3)<font face="Times New Roman" size="1"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></font><span lang="EN-US">Add "WTP RF Radio configuration"
in the section 4.4 </span></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on
these kind parameter are common for any kind wireless binding.</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part.</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio
Information", while Tx power these kind Info should not be sent </span></font></p>

<p style="text-indent: 5.25pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">during
discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio configuration"
is better.</span></font></p>

<p style="text-indent: 5.25pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">If keep them
in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message should be suggested
by protocol.</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">The TLV
of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type,
Tx power, Channel, country code and so on. </span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">For any
binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">The "WTP
RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way, AC
could configure WTP's RF parameter</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">and
know current configuration on the WTP radio.</span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">If this
way, current "11.9.18.&nbsp; IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12.&nbsp;
IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5.&nbsp; </span></font></p>

<p style="text-align: left;" align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">IEEE
802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE
802.11 related element.</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p style="margin-left: 18pt; text-indent: -18pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">4)<font face="Times New Roman" size="1"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></font><span lang="EN-US">Redefine "IEEE 802.11
Statistics" as &nbsp;"WTP Statistics" in the section 4.4 </span></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer
protocol, I think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" </span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">could be put on the section 4.4, except the element
like "RTS Success Count" and so on.</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to
suggest them.</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">Any way, I thought many TLV will change their location
as new CAPWAP will be divided into two parts.</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">Cheers</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" lang="EN-US">Richard &nbsp;(Shiyang)</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

</div>



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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 11:29:18 -0700
From: "Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>
To: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
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Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 220 "Ambiguitues with DTLS"/
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All,

The proposed resolution to Issue 220 is below.

Comments welcome.

Thanks,

Dorothy
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. The current draft seems to be ambiguous with respect to two DTLS items.

 The draft says in the section describing the stat machine transitions:

Idle to Init (Z): This transition indicates the beginning of a DTLS session.



WTP: The state transition is triggered by receipt of the DTLSStart command

from the CAPWAP state machine, and causes the WTP to send a DTLS ClientHello

to the AC.



AC: The state transition is triggered by receipt of the DTLSStart command from

the CAPWAP state machine. The AC starts the WaitJoin timer and awaits

reception of a DTLS ClientHello message.



In the description of transition aa, the draft says:

AC: Upon receipt of a ClientHello message containing a valid cookie, the AC

sets the WaitJoin timer.



These two transitions seem to require "starting" or "setting" the Waitjoin

timer in the AC both before and after the receipt of the ClientHello message.

I believe the text in transition z is correct and should either be reflected

in the description of transition aa, or removed from it to avoid conflict.



Proposed resolution: No change to the description of (aa). The current
text describing

Transition (aa), listed below, does not reference the WaitJoin Timer:

   Idle to Join (aa): This transition occurs when the WTP presents a

      DTLS ClientHello message containing a valid cookie to the AC.

      WTP: This transition is a no-op for the WTP.

      AC: The AC does not maintain state information until the WTP

         presents a DTLS ClientHello message containing a valid cookie.

         Upon receipt of a DTLS ClientHello message containing a valid

         cookie, the AC creates session state and transitions to the

         Join state.


The text in 6.2 though is incorrect in its description of WaitJoin timer
usage. Change from:

   After determining that a WTP should join the AC, the AC creates
   session state containing the WTP address, port and session ID, sets
   the WaitJoin timer for the session, sends the Join Response message
   to the WTP.

   The WTP, receiving a Join Response message checks for success or
   failure.  If the message indicates success, the WTP clears the
   WaitJoin timer for the session and proceeds to the Configure or Image
   Data state.  Otherwise, the WTP enters the CAPWAP reset state,
   resulting in shutdown of the DTLS session.

to

   Upon receipt of the DTLSClientHello, the AC creates
   session state containing the WTP address, port and session ID, sets
   the WaitJoin timer for the session, sends the Join Response message
   to the WTP.

   The WTP, receiving a Join Response message checks for success or
   failure.  If the message indicates success, the WTP clears the
   WaitJoin timer for the session and proceeds to the Configure State.
   Otherwise, the WTP enters the CAPWAP reset state,
   resulting in shutdown of the DTLS session.

Similarly, the text in 6.1 is incorrect in its description of
WaitJoin Timer usage.

Change from:

The Join Request message is used by a WTP to inform an AC that it
   wishes to provide services through the AC.  A Join Request message is
   sent by a WTP after receiving one or more Discovery Responses, and
   completion of DTLS session establishment.  When an AC receives a Join
   Request message it responds with a Join Response message.

   Upon completion of the DTLS handshake (synonymous with DTLS "session
   establishment"), the WTP sends the Join Request message to the AC.
   Upon receipt of the Join Request Message, the AC generates a Join
   Response message and sends it to the WTP, indicating success or
   failure.

   Upon transmission of the Join Request message, the WTP sets the
   WaitJoin timer.  If the Join Response message has not been received
   prior to expiration, the WTP aborts the Join process and transitions
   back to the Discovery state, see Section 2.3.1).  Upon receipt of the
   Join Response message, the WaitJoin timer is deactivated.

   If the AC rejects the Join Request, it sends a Join Response with a
   failure indication then enters the CAPWAP reset state, resulting in
   shutdown of the DTLS session.

   Upon determining which AC to join, the WTP creates session state
   containing the AC address and session ID, creates the Join Request
   message, sets the WaitJoin timer for the session and sends the Join
   Request message to the AC.

to

The Join Request message is used by a WTP to inform an AC that it
   wishes to provide services through the AC.  A Join Request message is
   sent by a WTP after (optionally) receiving one or more Discovery
Responses, and
   completion of DTLS session establishment.  When an AC receives a Join
   Request message it responds with a Join Response message.

   Upon completion of the DTLS handshake (synonymous with DTLS "session
   establishment"), the WTP sends the Join Request message to the AC.
   Upon receipt of the Join Request Message, the AC generates a Join
   Response message and sends it to the WTP, indicating success or
   failure.

   If the AC rejects the Join Request, it sends a Join Response with a
   failure indication then enters the CAPWAP reset state, resulting in
   shutdown of the DTLS session.


2. The draft also says, in the description of transition o, that the WTP should

send DTLSReset to the state machine.  Should this be DTLSShutdown?

Proposed resolution: Yes. Change "DTLSReset" to "DTLSShutdown"


On 9/14/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Tracker issue 220 created.
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bob O'Hara (boohara)
> > Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 9:22 AM
> > To: Capwap@frascone.com
> > Subject: [Capwap] Ambiguities with DTLS
> >
> > The current draft seems to be ambiguous with respect to two
> > DTLS items.
> >
> > The draft says in the section describing the stat machine transitions:
> > Idle to Init (Z): This transition indicates the beginning of
> > a DTLS session.
> >
> > WTP: The state transition is triggered by receipt of the
> > DTLSStart command from the CAPWAP state machine, and causes
> > the WTP to send a DTLS ClientHello to the AC.
> >
> > AC: The state transition is triggered by receipt of the
> > DTLSStart command from the CAPWAP state machine. The AC
> > starts the WaitJoin timer and awaits reception of a DTLS
> > ClientHello message.
> >
> > In the description of transition aa, the draft says:
> > AC: Upon receipt of a ClientHello message containing a valid
> > cookie, the AC sets the WaitJoin timer.
> >
> > These two transitions seem to require "starting" or "setting"
> > the Waitjoin timer in the AC both before and after the
> > receipt of the ClientHello message.  I believe the text in
> > transition z is correct and should either be reflected in the
> > description of transition aa, or removed from it to avoid conflict.
> >
> > The draft also says, in the description of transition o, that
> > the WTP should send DTLSReset to the state machine.  Should
> > this be DTLSShutdown?
> >
> >  -Bob
> >
> > Bob O'Hara
> > Cisco Systems - WNBU
> >
> > Phone:  +1 408 853 5513
> > Mobile: +1 408 218 4025
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
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All,<br>
<br>
The proposed resolution to Issue 220 is below.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
Comments welcome.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Dorothy<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">1. The current draft seems to be ambiguous with respect to two DTLS items.</span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;The draft says in the section describing the stat machine transitions:</span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Idle to Init (Z): This transition indicates the beginning of a DTLS session.</span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">WTP: The state transition is triggered by receipt of the DTLSStart command </span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">from the CAPWAP state machine, and causes the WTP to send a DTLS ClientHello </span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">to the AC.</span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">AC: The state transition is triggered by receipt of the DTLSStart command from </span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">the CAPWAP state machine. The AC starts the WaitJoin timer and awaits </span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">reception of a DTLS ClientHello message.</span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">In the description of transition aa, the draft says:</span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">AC: Upon receipt of a ClientHello message containing a valid cookie, the AC </span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">sets the WaitJoin timer.&nbsp; </span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">These two transitions seem to require &quot;starting&quot; or &quot;setting&quot; the Waitjoin </span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">timer in the AC both before and after the receipt of the ClientHello message.&nbsp; </span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">I believe the text in transition z is correct and should either be reflected </span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">in the description of transition aa, or removed from it to avoid conflict.</span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Proposed resolution: No change to the description of (aa). The current text describing</span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Transition (aa), listed below, does not reference the WaitJoin Timer:</span></font></pre>

<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">&nbsp;&nbsp; Idle to Join (aa): This 
transition occurs when the WTP presents a</span></font></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DTLS ClientHello 
message containing a valid cookie to the AC.</span></font></p>


<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WTP: This transition 
is a no-op for the WTP.</span></font></p>


<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; AC: The AC does not 
maintain state information until the WTP</span></font></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; presents a DTLS 
ClientHello message containing a valid cookie.</span></font></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Upon receipt of a 
DTLS ClientHello message containing a valid</span></font></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; cookie, the AC 
creates session state and transitions to the</span></font></p>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Join state.<br><br><br>The text in 6.2 though is incorrect in its description of WaitJoin timer<br>usage. Change from:<br><br>   After determining that a WTP should join the AC, the AC creates
<br>   session state containing the WTP address, port and session ID, sets<br>   the WaitJoin timer for the session, sends the Join Response message<br>   to the WTP.<br><br>   The WTP, receiving a Join Response message checks for success or
<br>   failure.  If the message indicates success, the WTP clears the<br>   WaitJoin timer for the session and proceeds to the Configure or Image<br>   Data state.  Otherwise, the WTP enters the CAPWAP reset state,<br>   resulting in shutdown of the DTLS session.
<br><br>to<br><br>   Upon receipt of the DTLSClientHello, the AC creates<br>   session state containing the WTP address, port and session ID, sets<br>   the WaitJoin timer for the session, sends the Join Response message<br>
   to the WTP.<br><br>   The WTP, receiving a Join Response message checks for success or<br>   failure.  If the message indicates success, the WTP clears the<br>   WaitJoin timer for the session and proceeds to the Configure State.  
<br>   Otherwise, the WTP enters the CAPWAP reset state,<br>   resulting in shutdown of the DTLS session.<br><br>Similarly, the text in 6.1 is incorrect in its description of<br>WaitJoin Timer usage. <br><br>Change from:<br>
<br>The Join Request message is used by a WTP to inform an AC that it<br>   wishes to provide services through the AC.  A Join Request message is<br>   sent by a WTP after receiving one or more Discovery Responses, and<br>
   completion of DTLS session establishment.  When an AC receives a Join<br>   Request message it responds with a Join Response message.<br><br>   Upon completion of the DTLS handshake (synonymous with DTLS &quot;session<br>
   establishment&quot;), the WTP sends the Join Request message to the AC.<br>   Upon receipt of the Join Request Message, the AC generates a Join<br>   Response message and sends it to the WTP, indicating success or<br>   failure.
<br><br>   Upon transmission of the Join Request message, the WTP sets the<br>   WaitJoin timer.  If the Join Response message has not been received<br>   prior to expiration, the WTP aborts the Join process and transitions
<br>   back to the Discovery state, see Section 2.3.1).  Upon receipt of the<br>   Join Response message, the WaitJoin timer is deactivated.<br><br>   If the AC rejects the Join Request, it sends a Join Response with a<br>
   failure indication then enters the CAPWAP reset state, resulting in<br>   shutdown of the DTLS session.<br><br>   Upon determining which AC to join, the WTP creates session state<br>   containing the AC address and session ID, creates the Join Request
<br>   message, sets the WaitJoin timer for the session and sends the Join<br>   Request message to the AC.<br><br>to<br><br>The Join Request message is used by a WTP to inform an AC that it<br>   wishes to provide services through the AC.  A Join Request message is
<br>   sent by a WTP after (optionally) receiving one or more Discovery Responses, and<br>   completion of DTLS session establishment.  When an AC receives a Join<br>   Request message it responds with a Join Response message.
<br><br>   Upon completion of the DTLS handshake (synonymous with DTLS &quot;session<br>   establishment&quot;), the WTP sends the Join Request message to the AC.<br>   Upon receipt of the Join Request Message, the AC generates a Join
<br>   Response message and sends it to the WTP, indicating success or<br>   failure.<br><br>   If the AC rejects the Join Request, it sends a Join Response with a<br>   failure indication then enters the CAPWAP reset state, resulting in
<br>   shutdown of the DTLS session.<br><br><br></span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">2. The draft also says, in the description of transition o, that the WTP should </span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">send DTLSReset to the state machine.&nbsp; Should this be DTLSShutdown?</span></font></pre>
<pre><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Proposed resolution: Yes. Change &quot;DTLSReset&quot; to &quot;DTLSShutdown&quot;</span></font></pre>
<br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 9/14/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com">pcalhoun@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Tracker issue 220 created.<br><br>Pat Calhoun<br>CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit<br>Cisco Systems<br><br><br><br>&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt; From: Bob O'Hara (boohara)<br>&gt; Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 9:22 AM
<br>&gt; To: <a href="mailto:Capwap@frascone.com">Capwap@frascone.com</a><br>&gt; Subject: [Capwap] Ambiguities with DTLS<br>&gt;<br>&gt; The current draft seems to be ambiguous with respect to two<br>&gt; DTLS items.<br>
&gt;<br>&gt; The draft says in the section describing the stat machine transitions:<br>&gt; Idle to Init (Z): This transition indicates the beginning of<br>&gt; a DTLS session.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; WTP: The state transition is triggered by receipt of the
<br>&gt; DTLSStart command from the CAPWAP state machine, and causes<br>&gt; the WTP to send a DTLS ClientHello to the AC.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; AC: The state transition is triggered by receipt of the<br>&gt; DTLSStart command from the CAPWAP state machine. The AC
<br>&gt; starts the WaitJoin timer and awaits reception of a DTLS<br>&gt; ClientHello message.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; In the description of transition aa, the draft says:<br>&gt; AC: Upon receipt of a ClientHello message containing a valid
<br>&gt; cookie, the AC sets the WaitJoin timer.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; These two transitions seem to require &quot;starting&quot; or &quot;setting&quot;<br>&gt; the Waitjoin timer in the AC both before and after the<br>&gt; receipt of the ClientHello message.&nbsp;&nbsp;I believe the text in
<br>&gt; transition z is correct and should either be reflected in the<br>&gt; description of transition aa, or removed from it to avoid conflict.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; The draft also says, in the description of transition o, that
<br>&gt; the WTP should send DTLSReset to the state machine.&nbsp;&nbsp;Should<br>&gt; this be DTLSShutdown?<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;-Bob<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Bob O'Hara<br>&gt; Cisco Systems - WNBU<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Phone:&nbsp;&nbsp;+1 408 853 5513<br>&gt; Mobile: +1 408 218 4025
<br>&gt;<br>&gt; _________________________________________________________________<br>&gt; To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<br>&gt; <a href="http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap">
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Hi Behcet,

Comment inline below.

Dorothy

On 10/4/06, Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Dorothy,
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Dorothy Stanley < dstanley1389@gmail.com>
> To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) <boohara@cisco.com>
> Cc: Saravanan Govindan < Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>; Cheng Hong
> < Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>; capwap@frascone.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2006 5:09:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
>
> Bob, all,
>
> Comments inline.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dorothy
>
> On 9/29/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) < boohara@cisco.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Again, your proposal does not eliminate any attack mechanism and does
> > not add any functionality to the protocol, only cost and complexity.  A
> > replayed frame will be discarded by the MAC, using the normal duplicate
> > frame detection mechanisms.  See section 8.3.3.3.2 of 802.11i (where th=
e
> > frame sequence number is part of the additional authenticated data) and
> > section 9.2.9 of 802.11-1999 for the description of these functions.
> > And PLEASE read 802.11 and 802.11i before again asserting that this
> > proposal is necessary.
> >
>
> In Section 8.3.3.3.2, the AAD construction for CCMP  includes the frame
> sequence control field =96 and the sequence number,
> bits 4-15 of the frame equence control field - is masked to 0 in the AAD;
> so that only the fragment number is protected.
>
> The TKIP MIC protects neither the fragment number nor the sequence number
> of  the 802.11 frame sequence control field, as the TKIP MIC
> is MSDU based.
>
> In 9.2.9, Duplicate detection and recovery, the text indicates that a STA
> may omit
> broadcast/multicast frame data from its duplicate detection cache; if
> bc/mc data is not included, then normal
> duplicate frame detection will not apply.
>
>  As I said several emails ago, the ONLY effect of using zero as the value
> for the KeyRSC is that the 802.11 chipset in the STA (client) will have t=
o
> receive the frame, attempt to decrypt it, and validate the MIC.  This mus=
t
> be done for EVERY frame received, whether it is a replayed frame or not.
> This set of functions is performed in the 802.11 STA chipset and does not
> consume any additional resources of the STA.  So, the attack, if it can e=
ven
> be characterized as an attack, is no more effective at DOSing the STA tha=
n
> sending it any other frame.
>
> The MIC calculation, and encrpt/decrypt is typically performed in hardwar=
e
> in the chipset for CCMP.
> However, the TKIP MIC calculation is typically performed in the driver, i=
n
> software.
>
> If a STA does not have the proper RSC value, there is a "window of
> vulnerability" before it receives
> the correct value, during
> which the STA can receive and process replayed  bc/mc frames. The
> magnitude of the DOS aspect of this
> depends on the STA crypto implementation - hw/ccmp - virtually no impact
> or sw/tkip-some small impact.
> The larger issue is that the replay protection mechanism guarrantees
> provided by 802.11i are lost.
>
> --snip
>
> =3D=3D>
>
> Are you favoring a solution Charles sketched, i.e. WTP sends keyRSC value
> during authentication/reassociation of each new STA so that AC can use th=
e
> correct (or close to correct) value in Message 3 of 4-way handshake and
> Message 1 of group key handshake?
>
> Can you clarify this?
>
It seems that there are three categories of solutions being discussed:
(a) Those that remove the possibility of replayed frames - ideal, but
alternatives on the table are viewed as too complex and introduce time
constraints.
(b) Those that reduce the number of previously sent bc/mc frames that can b=
e
replayed - less than ideal, but less complex.
(c) Those that allow any previously sent bc/mc frame with a given GTK to be
replayed.

If asked to select between (b) and (c), I would favor a (b) category
solution over a (c) category solution.

 Thanks
>
> Behcet
>

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Hi Behcet,<br>
<br>
Comment inline below.<br>
<br>
Dorothy<br><br><div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 10/4/06, <b class=3D"gma=
il_sendername">Behcet Sarikaya</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:behcetsarikaya@yah=
oo.com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event=
,this)">
behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0p=
t 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div style=3D"font-family: courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 12pt;"><div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: courier,monaco,mono=
space,sans-serif;">Hi Dorothy,<br><br>
<div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,new york,times,=
serif;"><span>----- Original Message ----<br>From: Dorothy Stanley &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return t=
op.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">

dstanley1389@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:boohara@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExt=
Link(window,event,this)">boohara@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>Cc: Saravanan Govinda=
n &lt;
<a href=3D"mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com" target=3D"_blank" on=
click=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">Saravanan.Govindan@s=
g.panasonic.com</a>&gt;; Cheng Hong &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.pan=
asonic.com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,e=
vent,this)">

Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=
>capwap@frascone.com</a><br>Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2006 5:09:55 PM<br>Su=
bject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for=20
802.11i Considerations<br><br></span>Bob, all,<br><br>Comments inline.<br><=
br>Thanks,<br><br>Dorothy<br><br>
<div><span><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 9/29/06, <b class=3D"gmail_sender=
name">Bob O'Hara (boohara)</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:boohara@cisco.com" rel=
=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window=
,event,this)">

boohara@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div align=3D"left" dir=3D"ltr"><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial=
" size=3D"2"></font></span>&nbsp;</div>
<div align=3D"left" dir=3D"ltr"><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial=
" size=3D"2">Again,
your proposal does not eliminate any attack mechanism and does not add
any functionality to the protocol, only cost and complexity.&nbsp; A
replayed frame will be discarded by the MAC, using the normal duplicate
frame detection mechanisms.&nbsp; See section </font></span><span><font col=
or=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">8.3.3.3.2
of 802.11i (where the frame sequence number is part of the additional
authenticated data) and section 9.2.9 of 802.11-1999&nbsp;for the
description of these functions.&nbsp; And PLEASE read 802.11 and
802.11i before again asserting that this proposal is necessary.</font></spa=
n></div></div></blockquote>
</span><div><br>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">In Section 8.3.3.3.2, the AAD construction for CCMP&nbsp; includes the f=
rame sequence control field =96 and the sequence number, <br>bits 4-15 of t=
he frame equence control field - is masked to 0 in the AAD; so that only th=
e fragment number is protected.
</span></font></p>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">The
TKIP MIC protects neither the fragment number nor the sequence number
of&nbsp; the 802.11 frame sequence control field, as the TKIP MIC<br>is MSD=
U based.<br></span></font><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size: 12pt;"></span></font></p>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">In 9.2.9, Duplicate detection and recovery, the text indicates that a ST=
A may omit <br>broadcast/multicast frame data from its duplicate detection =
cache; if bc/mc data is not included, then normal
<br>duplicate frame detection will not apply.</span></font></p><span>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">&nbsp;</span></font><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D=
"2">As
I said several emails ago, the ONLY effect of using zero as the value
for the KeyRSC is that the 802.11 chipset in the STA (client) will have
to receive the frame, attempt to decrypt it, and validate the
MIC.&nbsp; This must be done for EVERY frame received, whether it is a
replayed frame or not.&nbsp; This set of functions is performed in the
802.11 STA chipset and does not consume any additional resources of the
STA.&nbsp; So, the attack, if it can even be characterized as an
attack, is no more effective at DOSing the STA than sending it any
other frame.<br></font></span></p></span>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">The MIC calculation, and encrpt/decrypt is typically performed in hardwa=
re in the chipset for CCMP.<br>However, the TKIP MIC calculation is typical=
ly performed in the driver, in software.
<br></span></font></p>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">If a STA does not have the proper RSC value, there is a &quot;window of =
vulnerability&quot; before it receives<br>the correct value, during<br>whic=
h the STA can receive and process replayed&nbsp; bc/mc frames. The magnitud=
e of the DOS aspect of this
<br>depends on the STA crypto implementation - hw/ccmp - virtually no impac=
t or sw/tkip-some small impact.<br>The larger issue is that the replay prot=
ection mechanism guarrantees provided by 802.11i are lost.</span></font>

</p>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">--snip</span></font></p>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">=3D=3D&gt;</span></font></p>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">Are
you favoring a solution Charles sketched, i.e. WTP sends keyRSC value
during authentication/reassociation of each new STA so that AC can use
the correct (or close to correct) value in Message 3 of 4-way handshake
and Message 1 of group key handshake?</span></font></p>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">Can you clarify this?</span></font></p></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></blockquote><div>It seems that there are three categories of solutions =
being discussed:
<br>
(a) Those that remove the possibility of replayed frames - ideal, but
alternatives on the table are viewed as too complex and introduce time
constraints.<br>
(b) Those that reduce the number of previously sent bc/mc frames that can b=
e replayed - less than ideal, but less complex.<br>
(c) Those that allow any previously sent bc/mc frame with a given GTK to be=
 replayed.<br>
<br>
If asked to select between (b) and (c), I would favor a (b) category soluti=
on over a (c) category solution.<br>

</div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid=
 rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><d=
iv style=3D"font-family: courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif; font-size: 12=
pt;">

<div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: courier,monaco,monospace,sans-s=
erif;"><div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,new york=
,times,serif;"><div><div><p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">

Thanks</span></font></p>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">Behcet</span></font></p></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br>

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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to :One issue,
	please discuss: I suggest some change for "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx
	Power"
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Hi All,

This request is based on the assumption that the WTP's power level  
will actually be set in dBm.  If that is true, why not use dBm (or  
centi-dBm) as the unit for this attribute, instead of mW (or 0.1 mW)?

Margaret

On Oct 5, 2006, at 12:34 PM, Dorothy Stanley wrote:

> All,
>
> The proposed resolution to the 11.9.18 comment is: Accept the  
> commenters suggestion, change
>
>
>    From "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit  
> output power in mW."
>    to   "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit  
> output power in 0.1mW."
>
>
> Comments welcome,
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dorothy
>
> On 9/25/06, zhaoyujin 31390 <zhaoyujin@huawei.com> wrote: Section  
> 11.9.18 has following discripiton, I suggestion some change
>
>    From "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit  
> output power in mW."
>    to   "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit  
> output power in 0.1mW."
>
> The reason is: normally WLAN will use dbm. The conversion between  
> dbm and mw can not satisfy this TLV requirement. If capwap  
> transimit one mw value, the device can't precise get corresponding  
> dbm.
>
>   For example
>          1 dbm<----->1.3mw  ----> 1mw
>          2 dbm<----->1.6mw  ----> 2mw
>          3 dbm<----->2.0mw  ----> 2mw
>
>   This time, if capwap transmits 2 mw, system doesn't know it is  
> 2dbm or 3 dbm.
>
> The following is suggestion:
>   For example
>          1 dbm<----->1.3mw  ----> 13mw
>          2 dbm<-----> 1.6mw  ----> 16mw
>          3 dbm<----->2.0mw  ----> 20mw
>
> Thanks
> Michael
>
> >   The Tx power message element value is bi-directional.  When  
> sent by
> >   the WTP, it contains the current power level of the radio in
> >   question.  When sent by the AC, it contains the power level the  
> WTP
> >   MUST adhere to.
> >
> >        0                   1                   2                   3
> >        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8  
> 9 0 1
> >       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- 
> +-+-+
> >       |    Radio ID   |    Reserved   |        Current Tx  
> Power       |
> >       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- 
> +-+-+
> >
> >   Type:  1041 for IEEE 802.11 Tx Power
> >
> >   Length:  4
> >
> >   Radio ID:  An 8-bit value representing the radio to configure.
> >
> >   Reserved:  MUST be set to zero
> >
> >   Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit output  
> power
> >      in mW.
>
> This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from  
> HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose  
> address is listed above. Any use of the information contained  
> herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial  
> disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than  
> the intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail  
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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 09:34:18 -0700
From: "Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to :One issue,
	please discuss: I suggest some change for "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx
	Power"
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All,

The proposed resolution to the 11.9.18 comment is: Accept the commenters
suggestion, change


   From "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit output
power in mW."
   to   "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit output
power in 0.1mW."


Comments welcome,

Thanks,

Dorothy

On 9/25/06, zhaoyujin 31390 <zhaoyujin@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Section 11.9.18 has following discripiton, I suggestion some change
>
>    From "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit output
> power in mW."
>    to   "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit output
> power in 0.1mW."
>
> The reason is: normally WLAN will use dbm. The conversion between dbm and
> mw can not satisfy this TLV requirement. If capwap transimit one mw value,
> the device can't precise get corresponding dbm.
>
>   For example
>          1 dbm<----->1.3mw  ----> 1mw
>          2 dbm<----->1.6mw  ----> 2mw
>          3 dbm<----->2.0mw  ----> 2mw
>
>   This time, if capwap transmits 2 mw, system doesn't know it is 2dbm or 3
> dbm.
>
> The following is suggestion:
>   For example
>          1 dbm<----->1.3mw  ----> 13mw
>          2 dbm<----->1.6mw  ----> 16mw
>          3 dbm<----->2.0mw  ----> 20mw
>
> Thanks
> Michael
>
> >   The Tx power message element value is bi-directional.  When sent by
> >   the WTP, it contains the current power level of the radio in
> >   question.  When sent by the AC, it contains the power level the WTP
> >   MUST adhere to.
> >
> >        0                   1                   2                   3
> >        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
> >       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |    Radio ID   |    Reserved   |        Current Tx Power       |
> >       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >
> >   Type:  1041 for IEEE 802.11 Tx Power
> >
> >   Length:  4
> >
> >   Radio ID:  An 8-bit value representing the radio to configure.
> >
> >   Reserved:  MUST be set to zero
> >
> >   Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit output power
> >      in mW.
>
> This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from HUAWEI,
> which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed
> above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including,
> but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or
> dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient's) is
> prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by
> phone or email
> immediately and delete it!
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
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>
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All,<br>
<br>
The proposed resolution to the 11.9.18 comment is: Accept the commenters suggestion, change<br><br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; From &quot;Current Tx Power:&nbsp;&nbsp;This attribute contains the transmit output power in mW.&quot;<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; to&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;Current Tx Power:&nbsp;&nbsp;This attribute contains the transmit output power in 0.1mW.&quot;<br>
<br>
<br>
Comments welcome,<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Dorothy<br>
<br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 9/25/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">zhaoyujin 31390</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:zhaoyujin@huawei.com">zhaoyujin@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Section 11.9.18 has following discripiton, I suggestion some change<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; From &quot;Current Tx Power:&nbsp;&nbsp;This attribute contains the transmit output power in mW.&quot;<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; to&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;Current Tx Power:&nbsp;&nbsp;This attribute contains the transmit output power in 
0.1mW.&quot;<br><br>The
reason is: normally WLAN will use dbm. The conversion between dbm and
mw can not satisfy this TLV requirement. If capwap transimit one mw
value, the device can't precise get corresponding dbm.<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;For example<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1 dbm&lt;-----&gt;1.3mw&nbsp;&nbsp;----&gt; 1mw<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 dbm&lt;-----&gt;1.6mw&nbsp;&nbsp;----&gt; 2mw<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3 dbm&lt;-----&gt;2.0mw&nbsp;&nbsp;----&gt; 2mw
<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;This time, if capwap transmits 2 mw, system doesn't know it is 2dbm or 3 dbm.<br><br>The following is suggestion:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;For example<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1 dbm&lt;-----&gt;1.3mw&nbsp;&nbsp;----&gt; 13mw<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 dbm&lt;-----&gt;
1.6mw&nbsp;&nbsp;----&gt; 16mw<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3 dbm&lt;-----&gt;2.0mw&nbsp;&nbsp;----&gt; 20mw<br><br>Thanks<br>Michael<br><br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; The Tx power message element value is bi-directional.&nbsp;&nbsp;When sent by<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; the WTP, it contains the current power level of the radio in
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; question.&nbsp;&nbsp;When sent by the AC, it contains the power level the WTP<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; MUST adhere to.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
3<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Radio ID&nbsp;&nbsp;
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Reserved&nbsp;&nbsp;
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Current Tx
Power&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Type:&nbsp;&nbsp;1041 for IEEE 802.11 Tx Power<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Length:&nbsp;&nbsp;4<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Radio ID:&nbsp;&nbsp;An 8-bit value representing the radio to configure.
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Reserved:&nbsp;&nbsp;MUST be set to zero<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Current Tx Power:&nbsp;&nbsp;This attribute contains the transmit output power<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;in mW.<br><br>This
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notify the sender by phone or email<br>immediately and delete it!<br><br>_________________________________________________________________<br>To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<br><a href="http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap">
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From: "Scott G. Kelly" <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>
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Following up once again - after careful review, I still agree with Charles, and here's some suggested text for the security considerations:

13.5.  IEEE 802.11 Security

    When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, the
   CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.  Derived
   session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting in
   many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD discourage the use
   of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic solutions
   such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.

   When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol
   may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the link security
  (packet encryption and integrity verification) is provided by the WTP or the AC. 
   When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new security 
   concerns are introduced. 

   However, when the WTP provides link security, a new vulnerability will
   exist when the following conditions are true:

	o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID
        (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already exists

        o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK

   Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter (KeyRSC) 
   associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors the
   4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC is not
   known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.
   The client will update its Key RSC value to the current valid KeyRSC
   upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior to this, 
   previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was secured with the existing 
   GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic as valid.

   Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or broadcast
   frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to such
   replay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is expected that 
   replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP. 

   The only way to completely close this window is to provide the 
   exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any
   other approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given
   the low relative threat level this presents, the additional complexity
   introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That 
   is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this regard.


Margaret Wasserman wrote:
> Hi Charles,
> 
> <chair hat=off>
> 
>> If the consensus is to use RSC=0, then I think a disclaimer statement
>> should be added to the security considerations section about the  
>> replay
>> possibility in multicast protocols.  Overall this is probably  
>> sufficient.
> 
> This does seem like the simplest approach.  So, if there is no  
> objection from our security advisors
> (you and Scott Kelly), then I'm for it.
> 
> </chair>
> 
> Margaret
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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I agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as a possibility. As far a=
s interoperability is concerned, value 0 is interoperable but not correct. =
If we allow implementations to snif in and modify then any value should be =
acceptable which may be a concern for interoperability?=0A=0A=0A----- Origi=
nal Message ----=0AFrom: Scott G. Kelly <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>=0ATo: capwa=
p <capwap@frascone.com>=0ASent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM=0ASubj=
ect: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations=0A=0A=
=0AFollowing up once again - after careful review, I still agree with Charl=
es, and here's some suggested text for the security considerations:=0A=0A13=
.5.  IEEE 802.11 Security=0A=0A    When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastruc=
ture with WEP encryption, the=0A   CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vul=
nerabilities.  Derived=0A   session keys between the STA and WTP can be com=
promised, resulting in=0A   many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHO=
ULD discourage the use=0A   of WEP and encourage use of technically sound c=
ryptographic solutions=0A   such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.=0A=0A   Wh=
en used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol=0A   may introdu=
ce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the link security=0A  (packet =
encryption and integrity verification) is provided by the WTP or the AC. =
=0A   When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new securit=
y =0A   concerns are introduced. =0A=0A   However, when the WTP provides li=
nk security, a new vulnerability will=0A   exist when the following conditi=
ons are true:=0A=0A    o the client is not the first to associate to the WT=
P/ESSID=0A        (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already ex=
ists=0A=0A        o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK=0A=0A=
   Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter (KeyRSC) =0A   a=
ssociated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors the=0A   4-w=
ay handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC is not=0A   kno=
wn when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.=0A   The client w=
ill update its Key RSC value to the current valid KeyRSC=0A   upon receipt =
of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior to this, =0A   previous m=
ulticast/broadcast traffic which was secured with the existing =0A   GTK ma=
y be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic as valid.=0A=0A   Ty=
pically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or broadcast=0A   fr=
ames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to such=0A   rep=
lay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is expected that =
=0A   replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP. =0A=0A   T=
he only way to completely close this window is to provide the =0A   exact K=
eyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any=0A   other approach si=
mply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given=0A   the low relative thr=
eat level this presents, the additional complexity=0A   introduced by provi=
ding the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That =0A   is, this specifica=
tion provides for a calculated risk in this regard.=0A=3D=3D>=0AHowever, WT=
P implementations MAY provide the exact KeyRSC value before forwarding mess=
age 3 of the 4-way handshake.=0A=0A--behcet
--0-1641367754-1160081789=:4947
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;f=
ont-size:12pt"><DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: courier, monaco,=
 monospace, sans-serif">I agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as=
 a possibility. As far as interoperability is concerned, value 0 is interop=
erable but not correct. If we allow implementations to snif in and modify t=
hen any value should be acceptable which may be a concern for interoperabil=
ity?<BR><BR>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman,=
 new york, times, serif">----- Original Message ----<BR>From: Scott G. Kell=
y &lt;s.kelly@ix.netcom.com&gt;<BR>To: capwap &lt;capwap@frascone.com&gt;<B=
R>Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue=
 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations<BR><BR>=0A<DIV>Following up on=
ce again - after careful review, I still agree with Charles, and here's som=
e suggested text for the security considerations:<BR><BR>13.5.&nbsp;&nbsp;I=
EEE 802.11 Security<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;When used with an IEEE 8=
02.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, the<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; CAPWAP protoc=
ol does not add any new vulnerabilities.&nbsp;&nbsp;Derived<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting in<BR>&=
nbsp;&nbsp; many well-documented attacks.&nbsp;&nbsp;Implementors SHOULD di=
scourage the use<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; of WEP and encourage use of technically so=
und cryptographic solutions<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; such as those in an IEEE 802.11=
 RSN.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPW=
AP protocol<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on=
 whether the link security<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;(packet encryption and integrity =
verification) is provided by the WTP or the AC. <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;
 When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new security <BR=
>&nbsp;&nbsp; concerns are introduced. <BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; However, when t=
he WTP provides link security, a new vulnerability will<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; exi=
st when the following conditions are true:<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;o=
 the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(i.e. other clients are associated), and=
 a GTK already exists<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; U=
nder these circumstances, the receive sequence counter (KeyRSC) <BR>&nbsp;&=
nbsp; associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors the<B=
R>&nbsp;&nbsp; 4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyR=
SC is not<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; known when the AC constructs the message containi=
ng the GTK.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; The client will update its Key RSC value to the=
 current
 valid KeyRSC<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast m=
essage, but prior to this, <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; previous multicast/broadcast tr=
affic which was secured with the existing <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; GTK may be repla=
yed, and the client will accept this traffic as valid.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or broadcast<BR>&n=
bsp;&nbsp; frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to =
such<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; replay is expected to be very small. In most condition=
s, it is expected that <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; replayed frames could be detected (=
and logged) by the WTP. <BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; The only way to completely clo=
se this window is to provide the <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; exact KeyRSC value in mes=
sage 3 of the 4-way handshake; any<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; other approach simply na=
rrows the window to varying degrees. Given<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; the low relative=
 threat level this presents, the additional complexity<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; intr=
oduced by
 providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; i=
s, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this regard.<BR>=3D=
=3D&gt;</DIV>=0A<DIV>However, WTP implementations&nbsp;MAY provide the exac=
t KeyRSC value before forwarding message 3 of the 4-way handshake.<BR><BR>-=
-behcet</DIV></DIV></DIV></div></body></html>
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From: "Partha Narasimhan" <partha@arubanetworks.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion
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My two cents below, FWIW.

- Assuming that most currently deployed L2 switches can be upgraded to
support CAPWAP merely with a software upgrade is well beyond the limits
of what I would normally assume in a typical day in my life. 

- In all of the debate, I haven't seen the proponents of the two-port
solution acknowledge significant additional complexity this solution
imposes on the entire protocol. Overall, it increases the
cost/complexity of implementation and/or trouble-shooting over the
single-port mux solution. 

- The single-port mux solution can be made to work on existing gear,
except it may or may not be as efficient as an implementation on some
other gear that is more recent or being designed now. The current
protocol design work should not be influenced by the inefficiencies of
implementing it in gear that was designed well before the need for
CAPWAP crept into people's minds. 

- Choosing a more complicated solution over a simpler one would also
lead to the protocol not getting deployed because of the cost of
implementing it. I am especially concerned whether the WTP vendors can
bear the increased cost of implementation and interoperability testing
and whether this will influence their decisions to drop support for
CAPWAP in their gear. This is the other side of the coin to the argument
that designing the protocol, albeit with a more complex solution, to fit
older implementations would increase the chance of it being widely
deployed. 

Thanks
partha

PS: While debating this issue, we went through what we now know were
detours along non-existent routing and QoS issues. Makes one wonder what
is really behind every long and drawn-out discussion in this WG.



-----Original Message-----
From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:24 PM
To: Scott G. Kelly
Cc: capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion


Hi Scott,

I'd just like to state, for clarity, that the message you are  
responding to came from all three of the CAPWAP chairs.  Although I  
drafted and sent the message, it did reflect input from Mani and  
Dorothy.

This response is just from me, and the opinions expressed are mine.   
The other chairs may not agree.

On Sep 28, 2006, at 1:44 PM, Scott G. Kelly wrote:
>> - Single-Processor:  In this architecture, the control plane and the
>> data plane run on a single processor.  The demultiplexing of control
>> and data packets happens on that processor.
>>
>> - Separate Data & Control Planes:  In this architecture, the
>> data and
>> control planes run on separate processors (and possibly on separate
>> cards), typically connected via a switching fabric.  This is
>> a common
>> hardware architecture for higher-end routing and switching hardware,
>> and it relies on a port-based splitting/load-balancing approach to
>> separate the control and data traffic.  For CAPWAP to work
>> efficiently on these systems, it must be possible to distinguish the
>> control and data traffic in the switching hardware, which is
>> typically done based on the five-tuple of the send & recv IP
>> addresses, the protocol (UDP), and the send & recv port
>> numbers.  The
>> switching hardware cannot do the type of deep packet inspection
>> required to demultiplex on CAPWAP header fields.
>
> This is one of the mischaracterizations I see. The issues have  
> nothing to do with how many processors there are - they have to do  
> with separation of control and data planes, and with the switching  
> facility used to distribute packets between these two planes. This  
> is a critical distinction.

I agree with you comment, and your private note on this subject was  
very helpful to advance my thinking on this matter. However, I do not  
think that your correction fundamentally changes the situation.  It  
would have been better if we had characterized these systems based on  
how received packets are handled, rather than based on the number of  
processors in the system, but that doesn't change the fact that there  
are two type of systems:

(1) Those where the packet is initially received by a component (such  
as a NPU or a CPU) that can distinguish between control and data  
traffic by looking at the CAPWAP headers.  There may be additional  
processors on this type of systems, so using the phrase "single- 
processor" to describe these systems was not correct.

AND

(2) Those where the packet is initially received by switching  
hardware that can only efficiently distinguish between control and  
data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports.

There are both high- and low-performance systems that correspond to  
each architecture.

> Based on the clarification above, it should be clear that this is  
> also a mischaracterization. Either approach will work in either of  
> the architectures, and in particular, in either of the  
> architectures _as they are deployed today_. The real problem  
> appears to be that one vendor has made a conscious choice to limit  
> the control/data switching facility to 5-tuple-based solutions.

I am personally aware of switching equipment from more than one  
vendor that is restricted to using a five-tuple for switching  
incoming traffic.  I am not currently aware of whether these systems  
are sold as WLAN switches, but I believe that many of them could be  
software upgraded to serve in that role.  Given the widespread  
deployment of switches that employ this architecture, I believe that  
it is desirable to make sure that CAPWAP can be added, as a software  
upgrade, to systems of this type.

I could express some opinions about which architecture is better, but  
my opinion on that subject is immaterial.  Both systems are widely  
deployed, and I think that we are likely to see wider deployment of  
CAPWAP if it can work well on both architectures.

>> This complexity is a consequence of the choice to tunnel all WLAN
>> data traffic to the AC.  In split-MAC local-forwarding mode,
>> only the
>> control plane traffic would be sent to the AC, and data plane
>> forwarding would be handled by the WTPs themselves.
>
> This also seems mischaracterized, because in all currently defined  
> split-MAC modes, a data channel must be established in order to  
> handle 802.11 management and authentication frames (even when  
> you're doing local bridging of the data).

Perhaps Mani could respond to this point, as he was the originator of  
this text.

> In any event, Margaret is right: the working group needs to speak  
> up so we can close this and move on. I'm done arguing about this,  
> and life will go on one way or another regardless of what we  
> choose. But at least, we should all be clear on what's happened  
> here, and go into this eyes wide open.

Thanks for your comments, and for your continuing efforts to keep  
this work moving forward.

Margaret

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From: "Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to :One issue,
	please discuss: I suggest some change for "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx
	Power"
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Margaret,

dBm units could also be used. This message element, and the TX Power
Level use mW, the TX Power Level to correspond with the 802.11 MIB
definitions, which use mW units.

Dorothy

On 10/5/06, Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> This request is based on the assumption that the WTP's power level
> will actually be set in dBm.  If that is true, why not use dBm (or
> centi-dBm) as the unit for this attribute, instead of mW (or 0.1 mW)?
>
> Margaret
>
> On Oct 5, 2006, at 12:34 PM, Dorothy Stanley wrote:
>
> > All,
> >
> > The proposed resolution to the 11.9.18 comment is: Accept the
> > commenters suggestion, change
> >
> >
> >    From "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit
> > output power in mW."
> >    to   "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit
> > output power in 0.1mW."
> >
> >
> > Comments welcome,
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dorothy
> >
> > On 9/25/06, zhaoyujin 31390 <zhaoyujin@huawei.com> wrote: Section
> > 11.9.18 has following discripiton, I suggestion some change
> >
> >    From "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit
> > output power in mW."
> >    to   "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit
> > output power in 0.1mW."
> >
> > The reason is: normally WLAN will use dbm. The conversion between
> > dbm and mw can not satisfy this TLV requirement. If capwap
> > transimit one mw value, the device can't precise get corresponding
> > dbm.
> >
> >   For example
> >          1 dbm<----->1.3mw  ----> 1mw
> >          2 dbm<----->1.6mw  ----> 2mw
> >          3 dbm<----->2.0mw  ----> 2mw
> >
> >   This time, if capwap transmits 2 mw, system doesn't know it is
> > 2dbm or 3 dbm.
> >
> > The following is suggestion:
> >   For example
> >          1 dbm<----->1.3mw  ----> 13mw
> >          2 dbm<-----> 1.6mw  ----> 16mw
> >          3 dbm<----->2.0mw  ----> 20mw
> >
> > Thanks
> > Michael
> >
> > >   The Tx power message element value is bi-directional.  When
> > sent by
> > >   the WTP, it contains the current power level of the radio in
> > >   question.  When sent by the AC, it contains the power level the
> > WTP
> > >   MUST adhere to.
> > >
> > >        0                   1                   2                   3
> > >        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
> > 9 0 1
> > >       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
> > +-+-+
> > >       |    Radio ID   |    Reserved   |        Current Tx
> > Power       |
> > >       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
> > +-+-+
> > >
> > >   Type:  1041 for IEEE 802.11 Tx Power
> > >
> > >   Length:  4
> > >
> > >   Radio ID:  An 8-bit value representing the radio to configure.
> > >
> > >   Reserved:  MUST be set to zero
> > >
> > >   Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit output
> > power
> > >      in mW.
> >
> > This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from
> > HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose
> > address is listed above. Any use of the information contained
> > herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial
> > disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than
> > the intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail
> > in error, please notify the sender by phone or email
> > immediately and delete it!
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
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Margaret,<br>
<br>
dBm units could also be used. This message element, and the TX Power<br>
Level use mW, the TX Power Level to correspond with the 802.11 MIB definitions, which use mW units.<br>
<br>
Dorothy<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/5/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Margaret Wasserman</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com">margaret@thingmagic.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>Hi All,<br><br>This request is based on the assumption that the WTP's power level<br>will actually be set in dBm.&nbsp;&nbsp;If that is true, why not use dBm (or<br>centi-dBm) as the unit for this attribute, instead of mW (or 0.1
 mW)?<br><br>Margaret<br><br>On Oct 5, 2006, at 12:34 PM, Dorothy Stanley wrote:<br><br>&gt; All,<br>&gt;<br>&gt; The proposed resolution to the 11.9.18 comment is: Accept the<br>&gt; commenters suggestion, change<br>&gt;
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From &quot;Current Tx Power:&nbsp;&nbsp;This attribute contains the transmit<br>&gt; output power in mW.&quot;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;to&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;Current Tx Power:&nbsp;&nbsp;This attribute contains the transmit<br>&gt; output power in 
0.1mW.&quot;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Comments welcome,<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Dorothy<br>&gt;<br>&gt; On 9/25/06, zhaoyujin 31390 &lt;<a href="mailto:zhaoyujin@huawei.com">zhaoyujin@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote: Section
<br>&gt; 11.9.18 has following discripiton, I suggestion some change<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From &quot;Current Tx Power:&nbsp;&nbsp;This attribute contains the transmit<br>&gt; output power in mW.&quot;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;to&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;Current Tx Power:&nbsp;&nbsp;This attribute contains the transmit
<br>&gt; output power in 0.1mW.&quot;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; The reason is: normally WLAN will use dbm. The conversion between<br>&gt; dbm and mw can not satisfy this TLV requirement. If capwap<br>&gt; transimit one mw value, the device can't precise get corresponding
<br>&gt; dbm.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; For example<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1 dbm&lt;-----&gt;1.3mw&nbsp;&nbsp;----&gt; 1mw<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2 dbm&lt;-----&gt;1.6mw&nbsp;&nbsp;----&gt; 2mw<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3 dbm&lt;-----&gt;2.0mw&nbsp;&nbsp;----&gt; 2mw<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; This time, if capwap transmits 2 mw, system doesn't know it is
<br>&gt; 2dbm or 3 dbm.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; The following is suggestion:<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; For example<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1 dbm&lt;-----&gt;1.3mw&nbsp;&nbsp;----&gt; 13mw<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2 dbm&lt;-----&gt; 1.6mw&nbsp;&nbsp;----&gt; 16mw<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3 dbm&lt;-----&gt;
2.0mw&nbsp;&nbsp;----&gt; 20mw<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Thanks<br>&gt; Michael<br>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; The Tx power message element value is bi-directional.&nbsp;&nbsp;When<br>&gt; sent by<br>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; the WTP, it contains the current power level of the radio in
<br>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; question.&nbsp;&nbsp;When sent by the AC, it contains the power level the<br>&gt; WTP<br>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; MUST adhere to.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
3<br>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8<br>&gt; 9 0 1<br>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-<br>&gt; +-+-+<br>&gt;
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Radio
ID&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Reserved&nbsp;&nbsp;
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Current Tx<br>&gt; Power&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<br>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-<br>&gt; +-+-+<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Type:&nbsp;&nbsp;1041 for IEEE 802.11 Tx Power<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Length:&nbsp;&nbsp;4
<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Radio ID:&nbsp;&nbsp;An 8-bit value representing the radio to configure.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Reserved:&nbsp;&nbsp;MUST be set to zero<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Current Tx Power:&nbsp;&nbsp;This attribute contains the transmit output
<br>&gt; power<br>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;in mW.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from<br>&gt; HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose<br>&gt; address is listed above. Any use of the information contained
<br>&gt; herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial<br>&gt; disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than<br>&gt; the intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail
<br>&gt; in error, please notify the sender by phone or email<br>&gt; immediately and delete it!<br>&gt;<br>&gt; _________________________________________________________________<br>&gt; To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
<br>&gt; <a href="http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap">http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</a><br>&gt;<br>&gt; Archives: <a href="http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap">http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
</a><br>&gt;<br>&gt; _________________________________________________________________<br>&gt; To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<br>&gt; <a href="http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap">
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From: "Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>
To: "Behcet Sarikaya" <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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Behcet,

My understanding of Scott's recommendations is that
 text be added into the security considerations section.
- no additional CAPWAP protocol exchange between the WTP and AC
- no specification of setting the keyRSC value to 0.

Without some specification in the protocol, how can the WTP provide
the KeyRSC info to the AC in a way that the AC is sure to understand? The
most we can say
with respect to the standard is that an AC implementation is free to comes
up with its own algorithm to
set the keyRSC value.

Dorothy

On 10/5/06, Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as a possibility. As far
> as interoperability is concerned, value 0 is interoperable but not correct.
> If we allow implementations to snif in and modify then any value should be
> acceptable which may be a concern for interoperability?
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Scott G. Kelly <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>
> To: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
>
> Following up once again - after careful review, I still agree with
> Charles, and here's some suggested text for the security considerations:
>
> 13.5.  IEEE 802.11 Security
>
>     When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, the
>    CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.  Derived
>    session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting in
>    many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD discourage the use
>    of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic solutions
>    such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.
>
>    When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol
>    may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the link
> security
>   (packet encryption and integrity verification) is provided by the WTP or
> the AC.
>    When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new security
>    concerns are introduced.
>
>    However, when the WTP provides link security, a new vulnerability will
>    exist when the following conditions are true:
>
>     o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID
>         (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already exists
>
>         o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK
>
>    Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter (KeyRSC)
>    associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors the
>    4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC is not
>    known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.
>    The client will update its Key RSC value to the current valid KeyRSC
>    upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior to this,
>
>    previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was secured with the
> existing
>    GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic as valid.
>
>    Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or broadcast
>    frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to such
>    replay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is expected
> that
>    replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP.
>
>    The only way to completely close this window is to provide the
>    exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any
>    other approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given
>    the low relative threat level this presents, the additional complexity
>    introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That
>    is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this regard.
> ==>
> However, WTP implementations MAY provide the exact KeyRSC value before
> forwarding message 3 of the 4-way handshake.
>
> --behcet
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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Behcet,<br>
<br>
My understanding of Scott's recommendations is that <br>
&nbsp;text be added into the security considerations section.<br>
- no additional CAPWAP protocol exchange between the WTP and AC<br>
- no specification of setting the keyRSC value to 0.<br>
<br>
Without some specification in the protocol, how can the WTP provide<br>
the KeyRSC info to the AC in a way that the AC is sure to understand? The most we can say<br>
with respect to the standard is that an AC implementation is free to comes up with its own algorithm to<br>
set the keyRSC value.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
Dorothy<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/5/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Behcet Sarikaya</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com">behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div style="font-family: courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif;">I
agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as a possibility. As far
as interoperability is concerned, value 0 is interoperable but not
correct. If we allow implementations to snif in and modify then any
value should be acceptable which may be a concern for interoperability?<br><br>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;"><span class="q">----- Original Message ----<br>From: Scott G. Kelly &lt;<a href="mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
s.kelly@ix.netcom.com</a>&gt;<br>To: capwap &lt;<a href="mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com</a>&gt;<br>Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM
<br>Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations<br><br>
</span><div><div><span class="e" id="q_10e1a43d1e020d6d_3">Following up
once again - after careful review, I still agree with Charles, and
here's some suggested text for the security considerations:<br><br>13.5.&nbsp;&nbsp;IEEE 802.11 Security<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, the<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.&nbsp;&nbsp;Derived
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting in<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; many well-documented attacks.&nbsp;&nbsp;Implementors SHOULD discourage the use<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic solutions
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the link security<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;(packet encryption and integrity verification) is provided by the WTP or the AC. 
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;
 When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new security <br>&nbsp;&nbsp; concerns are introduced. <br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; However, when the WTP provides link security, a new vulnerability will<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; exist when the following conditions are true:
<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already exists<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter (KeyRSC) 
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors the<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; 4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC is not<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; The client will update its Key RSC value to the current
 valid KeyRSC<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior to this, <br>&nbsp;&nbsp; previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was secured with the existing <br>&nbsp;&nbsp; GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic as valid.
<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or broadcast<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to such<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; replay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is expected that 
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP. <br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; The only way to completely close this window is to provide the <br>&nbsp;&nbsp; exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; other approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; the low relative threat level this presents, the additional complexity<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; introduced by
 providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That <br>&nbsp;&nbsp; is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this regard.<br></span></div>==&gt;</div>
<div>However, WTP implementations&nbsp;MAY provide the exact KeyRSC value before forwarding message 3 of the 4-way handshake.<br><br>--behcet</div></div></div></div></div>
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion
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From: "Chiu, Ran-Fun" <ran-fun.chiu@hp.com>
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We prefer the two-port solution.

Ran-Fun Chiu
HP Labs

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:mrw@lilacglade.org]
> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:50 AM
> To: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion
> 
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> As many of you know, we have had a technical issue open in the CAPWAP
> WG for some time that is commonly referred to as the 2-port/mux
> issue.  This issue involves a technical choice between:
> 
> - A solution that uses two different well-known UDP ports for
> separate data and control communications (the 2-port solution),
> 
> OR
> 
> - A solution that uses a single well-known UDP port for all
> communication, with control and data traffic distinguished by a
> CAPWAP header value (the mux solution).
> 
> Strong opinions have been expressed on both sides of this issue, and
> the WG has had trouble coming to consensus on a single choice.
> Discussions in this area have included a wide variety of networking
> topics, such as Quality of Service, NAT Traversal and Mobility.
> 
> Given the breadth of the technical issues under discussion, our Area
> Director, Dan Romascanu, decided to solicit advice from the IESG to
> help us understand the technical trade-offs, and to help us
> understand which factors it would be reasonable to consider in our
> working group decision -- specifically whether or not it was
> reasonable for us to consider the hardware implications of this
> decision.  The only IESG members who showed up for the discussion
> were Mark Townsley, one of the Internet ADs, and our two OPS ADs, Dan
> and David Kessens.  We didn't receive a definitive answer from the
> IESG, but a clear message was received from Mark Townsley that it is
> reasonable for the group to consider the hardware implications of our
> work -- both compatibility with currently deployed hardware, and the
> hardware architectures we might want to support in the future.
> 
> After much discussion with the interested IESG members, the document
> editors, the proponents of both solutions and some people who have
> proposed compromise solutions, the chairs believe that the key
> technical difference between these two proposals is which hardware
> architecture(s) they will support.  There are currently two different
> classes of AC hardware deployed, and variants on both of these
> architectures may be deployed in the future:
> 
> - Single-Processor:  In this architecture, the control plane and the
> data plane run on a single processor.  The demultiplexing of control
> and data packets happens on that processor.
> 
> - Separate Data & Control Planes:  In this architecture, the data and
> control planes run on separate processors (and possibly on separate
> cards), typically connected via a switching fabric.  This is a common
> hardware architecture for higher-end routing and switching hardware,
> and it relies on a port-based splitting/load-balancing approach to
> separate the control and data traffic.  For CAPWAP to work
> efficiently on these systems, it must be possible to distinguish the
> control and data traffic in the switching hardware, which is
> typically done based on the five-tuple of the send & recv IP
> addresses, the protocol (UDP), and the send & recv port numbers.  The
> switching hardware cannot do the type of deep packet inspection
> required to demultiplex on CAPWAP header fields.
> 
> The 2-port approach supports both the "Single-Processor" AC
> architecture and the "Separate Data & Control Planes" AC
> architecture.  Proponents of this solution believe that it is
> important to support the "Separate Data & Control Planes"
> architecture efficiently, both for compatibility with currently
> deployed hardware and to allow this hardware architecture to be used
> for future CAPWAP-enabled products.
> 
> The mux approach will only operate efficiently on "Single-Processor"
> systems. as it relies on the ability to demultiplex the control and
> data traffic using CAPWAP header information.  Proponents of this
> solution believe that it will simplify CAPWAP software
> implementation, and that it makes NAT traversal (when the AC and the
> WTPs are on different sides of a NAT) simpler to configure.
> 
> This complexity is a consequence of the choice to tunnel all WLAN
> data traffic to the AC.  In split-MAC local-forwarding mode, only the
> control plane traffic would be sent to the AC, and data plane
> forwarding would be handled by the WTPs themselves.
> 
> We've heard from a couple of strong voices on this issue. but now
> we'd like to hear from the rest of the WG...
> 
> Which hardware architecture(s) does the CAPWAP protocol needs to
> support?
> 
> Specifically, do you think that it should be a requirement to
> support efficient operation on currently deployed and future ACs that
> follow the "Separate Control & Data Planes" architecture described
> above?  Or do you think that it would be acceptable to produce a
> somewhat cleaner and simpler protocol that will not work efficiently
> on those ACs?
> 
> Please send your response by Thursday, October 5th (two weeks from
> today), so that the chairs can gauge the consensus of the WG in this
> matter.
> 
> After we have an understanding of which hardware architecture(s) the
> CAPWAP protocol needs to support, we will make an effort to sort
> through the various proposals and counter-proposals that meet that
> requirement.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> The CAPWAP Chairs
> Dorothy Gellert, Mahalingam Mani & Margaret Wasserman
> 
> 
> 
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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 15:39:41 -0700
From: "Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>
To: "Partha Narasimhan" <partha@arubanetworks.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion
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All,

Summary:

In one current (and potentially future) AC product implementation(s),
packets are initially received by component
hardware that can only efficiently distinguish between control and
data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports. These
implementations
cannot efficiently distinguish between control and data traffic within a
single port.

In some  5 known current (and potentially future) AC product
implementations, packets are initially received by a component (such
as a NPU or a CPU) that can efficiently distinguish between control and data
traffic by looking at the CAPWAP headers. These implementations can also
distinguish between
control and data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports.

Questions:

a)      Should the CAPWAP protocol include support for a single port mode?
Answer: Yes. to enable capable product implementations to take advantage of
the simplicity, reduced
complexity and  NAT traversal benefits of single port mode operation.

b)      Should the CAPWAP protocol include a means to enable its efficient
implementation on UDP-port-only
product implementations?

Answer: Desired, not required as support, though not efficient, of a single
port mode seems to be available..

       It is very disappointing to see the the time and energy of the WG so
wantonly wasted in pursuit of non-existent
issues surrounding this topic.
 Dorothy



On 10/5/06, Partha Narasimhan <partha@arubanetworks.com> wrote:
>
> My two cents below, FWIW.
>
> - Assuming that most currently deployed L2 switches can be upgraded to
> support CAPWAP merely with a software upgrade is well beyond the limits
> of what I would normally assume in a typical day in my life.
>
> - In all of the debate, I haven't seen the proponents of the two-port
> solution acknowledge significant additional complexity this solution
> imposes on the entire protocol. Overall, it increases the
> cost/complexity of implementation and/or trouble-shooting over the
> single-port mux solution.
>
> - The single-port mux solution can be made to work on existing gear,
> except it may or may not be as efficient as an implementation on some
> other gear that is more recent or being designed now. The current
> protocol design work should not be influenced by the inefficiencies of
> implementing it in gear that was designed well before the need for
> CAPWAP crept into people's minds.
>
> - Choosing a more complicated solution over a simpler one would also
> lead to the protocol not getting deployed because of the cost of
> implementing it. I am especially concerned whether the WTP vendors can
> bear the increased cost of implementation and interoperability testing
> and whether this will influence their decisions to drop support for
> CAPWAP in their gear. This is the other side of the coin to the argument
> that designing the protocol, albeit with a more complex solution, to fit
> older implementations would increase the chance of it being widely
> deployed.
>
> Thanks
> partha
>
> PS: While debating this issue, we went through what we now know were
> detours along non-existent routing and QoS issues. Makes one wonder what
> is really behind every long and drawn-out discussion in this WG.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:24 PM
> To: Scott G. Kelly
> Cc: capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion
>
>
> Hi Scott,
>
> I'd just like to state, for clarity, that the message you are
> responding to came from all three of the CAPWAP chairs.  Although I
> drafted and sent the message, it did reflect input from Mani and
> Dorothy.
>
> This response is just from me, and the opinions expressed are mine.
> The other chairs may not agree.
>
> On Sep 28, 2006, at 1:44 PM, Scott G. Kelly wrote:
> >> - Single-Processor:  In this architecture, the control plane and the
> >> data plane run on a single processor.  The demultiplexing of control
> >> and data packets happens on that processor.
> >>
> >> - Separate Data & Control Planes:  In this architecture, the
> >> data and
> >> control planes run on separate processors (and possibly on separate
> >> cards), typically connected via a switching fabric.  This is
> >> a common
> >> hardware architecture for higher-end routing and switching hardware,
> >> and it relies on a port-based splitting/load-balancing approach to
> >> separate the control and data traffic.  For CAPWAP to work
> >> efficiently on these systems, it must be possible to distinguish the
> >> control and data traffic in the switching hardware, which is
> >> typically done based on the five-tuple of the send & recv IP
> >> addresses, the protocol (UDP), and the send & recv port
> >> numbers.  The
> >> switching hardware cannot do the type of deep packet inspection
> >> required to demultiplex on CAPWAP header fields.
> >
> > This is one of the mischaracterizations I see. The issues have
> > nothing to do with how many processors there are - they have to do
> > with separation of control and data planes, and with the switching
> > facility used to distribute packets between these two planes. This
> > is a critical distinction.
>
> I agree with you comment, and your private note on this subject was
> very helpful to advance my thinking on this matter. However, I do not
> think that your correction fundamentally changes the situation.  It
> would have been better if we had characterized these systems based on
> how received packets are handled, rather than based on the number of
> processors in the system, but that doesn't change the fact that there
> are two type of systems:
>
> (1) Those where the packet is initially received by a component (such
> as a NPU or a CPU) that can distinguish between control and data
> traffic by looking at the CAPWAP headers.  There may be additional
> processors on this type of systems, so using the phrase "single-
> processor" to describe these systems was not correct.
>
> AND
>
> (2) Those where the packet is initially received by switching
> hardware that can only efficiently distinguish between control and
> data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports.
>
> There are both high- and low-performance systems that correspond to
> each architecture.
>
> > Based on the clarification above, it should be clear that this is
> > also a mischaracterization. Either approach will work in either of
> > the architectures, and in particular, in either of the
> > architectures _as they are deployed today_. The real problem
> > appears to be that one vendor has made a conscious choice to limit
> > the control/data switching facility to 5-tuple-based solutions.
>
> I am personally aware of switching equipment from more than one
> vendor that is restricted to using a five-tuple for switching
> incoming traffic.  I am not currently aware of whether these systems
> are sold as WLAN switches, but I believe that many of them could be
> software upgraded to serve in that role.  Given the widespread
> deployment of switches that employ this architecture, I believe that
> it is desirable to make sure that CAPWAP can be added, as a software
> upgrade, to systems of this type.
>
> I could express some opinions about which architecture is better, but
> my opinion on that subject is immaterial.  Both systems are widely
> deployed, and I think that we are likely to see wider deployment of
> CAPWAP if it can work well on both architectures.
>
> >> This complexity is a consequence of the choice to tunnel all WLAN
> >> data traffic to the AC.  In split-MAC local-forwarding mode,
> >> only the
> >> control plane traffic would be sent to the AC, and data plane
> >> forwarding would be handled by the WTPs themselves.
> >
> > This also seems mischaracterized, because in all currently defined
> > split-MAC modes, a data channel must be established in order to
> > handle 802.11 management and authentication frames (even when
> > you're doing local bridging of the data).
>
> Perhaps Mani could respond to this point, as he was the originator of
> this text.
>
> > In any event, Margaret is right: the working group needs to speak
> > up so we can close this and move on. I'm done arguing about this,
> > and life will go on one way or another regardless of what we
> > choose. But at least, we should all be clear on what's happened
> > here, and go into this eyes wide open.
>
> Thanks for your comments, and for your continuing efforts to keep
> this work moving forward.
>
> Margaret
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> _________________________________________________________________
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<p class="MsoNormal">All,<br>
</p>




<p class="MsoNormal">Summary: </p>




<p class="MsoNormal">In one current  (and potentially future) AC product implementation(s),
packets are initially received by component<br>
hardware that can only efficiently distinguish between control and<br>
data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports. These
implementations<br>
cannot efficiently distinguish between control and data
traffic within a single port.<span style="font-size: 10pt;"></span></p>




<p class="MsoNormal">In some&nbsp; 5 known current (and potentially future) AC product implementations, packets
are initially received by a component (such<br>
as a NPU or a CPU) that can efficiently distinguish between control and data<br>
traffic by looking at the CAPWAP headers. These implementations can also distinguish
between<br>
control and data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the
UDP ports.</p>




<p class="MsoNormal">Questions:</p>




<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: -0.25in; margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style=""><span style="">a)<span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span>Should the CAPWAP protocol include support for a
single port mode? 
</p>
<div style="margin-left: 40px;">Answer: Yes.  to enable capable product implementations to take advantage of the simplicity, reduced <br>
complexity and&nbsp; NAT traversal benefits of single port
mode operation.</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: -0.25in; margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style=""><span style="">b)<span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span>Should the CAPWAP protocol include a means to
enable its efficient implementation on UDP-port-only<br>
product implementations?<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;">Answer: Desired, not required as support, though not efficient, of a single port mode seems to be available..<br>
<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: -0.25in; margin-left: 0.0866in;"><span style=""><span style=""></span></span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
It is very disappointing to see the the time and energy of the WG so
wantonly wasted in pursuit of non-existent <br>
issues surrounding this topic.<br>
</p>
Dorothy<br>
<br>
<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/5/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Partha Narasimhan</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:partha@arubanetworks.com">partha@arubanetworks.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
My two cents below, FWIW.<br><br>- Assuming that most currently deployed L2 switches can be upgraded to<br>support CAPWAP merely with a software upgrade is well beyond the limits<br>of what I would normally assume in a typical day in my life.
<br><br>- In all of the debate, I haven't seen the proponents of the two-port<br>solution acknowledge significant additional complexity this solution<br>imposes on the entire protocol. Overall, it increases the<br>cost/complexity of implementation and/or trouble-shooting over the
<br>single-port mux solution.<br><br>- The single-port mux solution can be made to work on existing gear,<br>except it may or may not be as efficient as an implementation on some<br>other gear that is more recent or being designed now. The current
<br>protocol design work should not be influenced by the inefficiencies of<br>implementing it in gear that was designed well before the need for<br>CAPWAP crept into people's minds.<br><br>- Choosing a more complicated solution over a simpler one would also
<br>lead to the protocol not getting deployed because of the cost of<br>implementing it. I am especially concerned whether the WTP vendors can<br>bear the increased cost of implementation and interoperability testing<br>and whether this will influence their decisions to drop support for
<br>CAPWAP in their gear. This is the other side of the coin to the argument<br>that designing the protocol, albeit with a more complex solution, to fit<br>older implementations would increase the chance of it being widely
<br>deployed.<br><br>Thanks<br>partha<br><br>PS: While debating this issue, we went through what we now know were<br>detours along non-existent routing and QoS issues. Makes one wonder what<br>is really behind every long and drawn-out discussion in this WG.
<br><br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:<a href="mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com">margaret@thingmagic.com</a>]<br>Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:24 PM<br>To: Scott G. Kelly<br>
Cc: capwap<br>Subject: Re: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion<br><br><br>Hi Scott,<br><br>I'd just like to state, for clarity, that the message you are<br>responding to came from all three of the CAPWAP chairs.&nbsp;&nbsp;Although I
<br>drafted and sent the message, it did reflect input from Mani and<br>Dorothy.<br><br>This response is just from me, and the opinions expressed are mine.<br>The other chairs may not agree.<br><br>On Sep 28, 2006, at 1:44 PM, Scott G. Kelly wrote:
<br>&gt;&gt; - Single-Processor:&nbsp;&nbsp;In this architecture, the control plane and the<br>&gt;&gt; data plane run on a single processor.&nbsp;&nbsp;The demultiplexing of control<br>&gt;&gt; and data packets happens on that processor.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; - Separate Data &amp; Control Planes:&nbsp;&nbsp;In this architecture, the<br>&gt;&gt; data and<br>&gt;&gt; control planes run on separate processors (and possibly on separate<br>&gt;&gt; cards), typically connected via a switching fabric.&nbsp;&nbsp;This is
<br>&gt;&gt; a common<br>&gt;&gt; hardware architecture for higher-end routing and switching hardware,<br>&gt;&gt; and it relies on a port-based splitting/load-balancing approach to<br>&gt;&gt; separate the control and data traffic.&nbsp;&nbsp;For CAPWAP to work
<br>&gt;&gt; efficiently on these systems, it must be possible to distinguish the<br>&gt;&gt; control and data traffic in the switching hardware, which is<br>&gt;&gt; typically done based on the five-tuple of the send &amp; recv IP
<br>&gt;&gt; addresses, the protocol (UDP), and the send &amp; recv port<br>&gt;&gt; numbers.&nbsp;&nbsp;The<br>&gt;&gt; switching hardware cannot do the type of deep packet inspection<br>&gt;&gt; required to demultiplex on CAPWAP header fields.
<br>&gt;<br>&gt; This is one of the mischaracterizations I see. The issues have<br>&gt; nothing to do with how many processors there are - they have to do<br>&gt; with separation of control and data planes, and with the switching
<br>&gt; facility used to distribute packets between these two planes. This<br>&gt; is a critical distinction.<br><br>I agree with you comment, and your private note on this subject was<br>very helpful to advance my thinking on this matter. However, I do not
<br>think that your correction fundamentally changes the situation.&nbsp;&nbsp;It<br>would have been better if we had characterized these systems based on<br>how received packets are handled, rather than based on the number of<br>processors in the system, but that doesn't change the fact that there
<br>are two type of systems:<br><br>(1) Those where the packet is initially received by a component (such<br>as a NPU or a CPU) that can distinguish between control and data<br>traffic by looking at the CAPWAP headers.&nbsp;&nbsp;There may be additional
<br>processors on this type of systems, so using the phrase &quot;single-<br>processor&quot; to describe these systems was not correct.<br><br>AND<br><br>(2) Those where the packet is initially received by switching<br>hardware that can only efficiently distinguish between control and
<br>data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports.<br><br>There are both high- and low-performance systems that correspond to<br>each architecture.<br><br>&gt; Based on the clarification above, it should be clear that this is
<br>&gt; also a mischaracterization. Either approach will work in either of<br>&gt; the architectures, and in particular, in either of the<br>&gt; architectures _as they are deployed today_. The real problem<br>&gt; appears to be that one vendor has made a conscious choice to limit
<br>&gt; the control/data switching facility to 5-tuple-based solutions.<br><br>I am personally aware of switching equipment from more than one<br>vendor that is restricted to using a five-tuple for switching<br>incoming traffic.&nbsp;&nbsp;I am not currently aware of whether these systems
<br>are sold as WLAN switches, but I believe that many of them could be<br>software upgraded to serve in that role.&nbsp;&nbsp;Given the widespread<br>deployment of switches that employ this architecture, I believe that<br>it is desirable to make sure that CAPWAP can be added, as a software
<br>upgrade, to systems of this type.<br><br>I could express some opinions about which architecture is better, but<br>my opinion on that subject is immaterial.&nbsp;&nbsp;Both systems are widely<br>deployed, and I think that we are likely to see wider deployment of
<br>CAPWAP if it can work well on both architectures.<br><br>&gt;&gt; This complexity is a consequence of the choice to tunnel all WLAN<br>&gt;&gt; data traffic to the AC.&nbsp;&nbsp;In split-MAC local-forwarding mode,<br>&gt;&gt; only the
<br>&gt;&gt; control plane traffic would be sent to the AC, and data plane<br>&gt;&gt; forwarding would be handled by the WTPs themselves.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; This also seems mischaracterized, because in all currently defined
<br>&gt; split-MAC modes, a data channel must be established in order to<br>&gt; handle 802.11 management and authentication frames (even when<br>&gt; you're doing local bridging of the data).<br><br>Perhaps Mani could respond to this point, as he was the originator of
<br>this text.<br><br>&gt; In any event, Margaret is right: the working group needs to speak<br>&gt; up so we can close this and move on. I'm done arguing about this,<br>&gt; and life will go on one way or another regardless of what we
<br>&gt; choose. But at least, we should all be clear on what's happened<br>&gt; here, and go into this eyes wide open.<br><br>Thanks for your comments, and for your continuing efforts to keep<br>this work moving forward.
<br><br>Margaret<br><br>_________________________________________________________________<br>To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<br><a href="http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap">
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</a><br><br>Archives: <a href="http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap">http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap</a><br>_________________________________________________________________
<br>To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<br><a href="http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap">http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</a><br><br>Archives: <a href="http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap">
http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap</a><br></blockquote></div><br>

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From: Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 18:59:40 -0400
To: Dorothy Stanley <dstanley1389@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to :One issue,
	please discuss: I suggest some change for "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx
	Power"
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Hi Dorothy,

If the MIB uses mW, then I agree it is better to use mW-related units  
for compatibility.

Thanks,
Margaret

On Oct 5, 2006, at 5:44 PM, Dorothy Stanley wrote:

> Margaret,
>
> dBm units could also be used. This message element, and the TX Power
> Level use mW, the TX Power Level to correspond with the 802.11 MIB  
> definitions, which use mW units.
>
> Dorothy
>
> On 10/5/06, Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> This request is based on the assumption that the WTP's power level
> will actually be set in dBm.  If that is true, why not use dBm (or
> centi-dBm) as the unit for this attribute, instead of mW (or 0.1 mW)?
>
> Margaret
>
> On Oct 5, 2006, at 12:34 PM, Dorothy Stanley wrote:
>
> > All,
> >
> > The proposed resolution to the 11.9.18 comment is: Accept the
> > commenters suggestion, change
> >
> >
> >    From "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit
> > output power in mW."
> >    to   "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit
> > output power in 0.1mW."
> >
> >
> > Comments welcome,
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dorothy
> >
> > On 9/25/06, zhaoyujin 31390 <zhaoyujin@huawei.com> wrote: Section
> > 11.9.18 has following discripiton, I suggestion some change
> >
> >    From "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit
> > output power in mW."
> >    to   "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit
> > output power in 0.1mW."
> >
> > The reason is: normally WLAN will use dbm. The conversion between
> > dbm and mw can not satisfy this TLV requirement. If capwap
> > transimit one mw value, the device can't precise get corresponding
> > dbm.
> >
> >   For example
> >          1 dbm<----->1.3mw  ----> 1mw
> >          2 dbm<----->1.6mw  ----> 2mw
> >          3 dbm<----->2.0mw  ----> 2mw
> >
> >   This time, if capwap transmits 2 mw, system doesn't know it is
> > 2dbm or 3 dbm.
> >
> > The following is suggestion:
> >   For example
> >          1 dbm<----->1.3mw  ----> 13mw
> >          2 dbm<-----> 1.6mw  ----> 16mw
> >          3 dbm<-----> 2.0mw  ----> 20mw
> >
> > Thanks
> > Michael
> >
> > >   The Tx power message element value is bi-directional.  When
> > sent by
> > >   the WTP, it contains the current power level of the radio in
> > >   question.  When sent by the AC, it contains the power level the
> > WTP
> > >   MUST adhere to.
> > >
> > >        0                   1                    
> 2                   3
> > >        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
> > 9 0 1
> > >       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
> > +-+-+
> > >       |    Radio ID   |    Reserved   |        Current Tx
> > Power       |
> > >       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
> > +-+-+
> > >
> > >   Type:  1041 for IEEE 802.11 Tx Power
> > >
> > >   Length:  4
> > >
> > >   Radio ID:  An 8-bit value representing the radio to configure.
> > >
> > >   Reserved:  MUST be set to zero
> > >
> > >   Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit output
> > power
> > >      in mW.
> >
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion
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From: "Chiu, Ran-Fun" <ran-fun.chiu@hp.com>
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	"Partha Narasimhan" <partha@arubanetworks.com>
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Is this the consensus? Or, we are still looking for a consensus? The
current draft has a two-port UDP solution, but does not specify how to
handle Discovery (or, I missed something). Do we need a third port?  We
support the two-port solution if the Discovery issue is resolved. We
also can agree to a one-port solution. The WG has to make a decision.

=20

Ran-Fun Chiu

=20

________________________________

From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 3:40 PM
To: Partha Narasimhan
Cc: Margaret Wasserman; capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion

=20

All,

Summary:=20

In one current (and potentially future) AC product implementation(s),
packets are initially received by component
hardware that can only efficiently distinguish between control and
data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports. These
implementations
cannot efficiently distinguish between control and data traffic within a
single port.

In some  5 known current (and potentially future) AC product
implementations, packets are initially received by a component (such
as a NPU or a CPU) that can efficiently distinguish between control and
data
traffic by looking at the CAPWAP headers. These implementations can also
distinguish between
control and data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports.

Questions:

a)       Should the CAPWAP protocol include support for a single port
mode?=20

Answer: Yes. to enable capable product implementations to take advantage
of the simplicity, reduced=20
complexity and  NAT traversal benefits of single port mode operation.

b)       Should the CAPWAP protocol include a means to enable its
efficient implementation on UDP-port-only
product implementations?

Answer: Desired, not required as support, though not efficient, of a
single port mode seems to be available..

      It is very disappointing to see the the time and energy of the WG
so wantonly wasted in pursuit of non-existent=20
issues surrounding this topic.

Dorothy




On 10/5/06, Partha Narasimhan <partha@arubanetworks.com> wrote:

My two cents below, FWIW.

- Assuming that most currently deployed L2 switches can be upgraded to
support CAPWAP merely with a software upgrade is well beyond the limits
of what I would normally assume in a typical day in my life.=20

- In all of the debate, I haven't seen the proponents of the two-port
solution acknowledge significant additional complexity this solution
imposes on the entire protocol. Overall, it increases the
cost/complexity of implementation and/or trouble-shooting over the=20
single-port mux solution.

- The single-port mux solution can be made to work on existing gear,
except it may or may not be as efficient as an implementation on some
other gear that is more recent or being designed now. The current=20
protocol design work should not be influenced by the inefficiencies of
implementing it in gear that was designed well before the need for
CAPWAP crept into people's minds.

- Choosing a more complicated solution over a simpler one would also=20
lead to the protocol not getting deployed because of the cost of
implementing it. I am especially concerned whether the WTP vendors can
bear the increased cost of implementation and interoperability testing
and whether this will influence their decisions to drop support for=20
CAPWAP in their gear. This is the other side of the coin to the argument
that designing the protocol, albeit with a more complex solution, to fit
older implementations would increase the chance of it being widely=20
deployed.

Thanks
partha

PS: While debating this issue, we went through what we now know were
detours along non-existent routing and QoS issues. Makes one wonder what
is really behind every long and drawn-out discussion in this WG.=20



-----Original Message-----
From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:24 PM
To: Scott G. Kelly
Cc: capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion


Hi Scott,

I'd just like to state, for clarity, that the message you are
responding to came from all three of the CAPWAP chairs.  Although I=20
drafted and sent the message, it did reflect input from Mani and
Dorothy.

This response is just from me, and the opinions expressed are mine.
The other chairs may not agree.

On Sep 28, 2006, at 1:44 PM, Scott G. Kelly wrote:=20
>> - Single-Processor:  In this architecture, the control plane and the
>> data plane run on a single processor.  The demultiplexing of control
>> and data packets happens on that processor.
>>
>> - Separate Data & Control Planes:  In this architecture, the
>> data and
>> control planes run on separate processors (and possibly on separate
>> cards), typically connected via a switching fabric.  This is=20
>> a common
>> hardware architecture for higher-end routing and switching hardware,
>> and it relies on a port-based splitting/load-balancing approach to
>> separate the control and data traffic.  For CAPWAP to work=20
>> efficiently on these systems, it must be possible to distinguish the
>> control and data traffic in the switching hardware, which is
>> typically done based on the five-tuple of the send & recv IP=20
>> addresses, the protocol (UDP), and the send & recv port
>> numbers.  The
>> switching hardware cannot do the type of deep packet inspection
>> required to demultiplex on CAPWAP header fields.=20
>
> This is one of the mischaracterizations I see. The issues have
> nothing to do with how many processors there are - they have to do
> with separation of control and data planes, and with the switching=20
> facility used to distribute packets between these two planes. This
> is a critical distinction.

I agree with you comment, and your private note on this subject was
very helpful to advance my thinking on this matter. However, I do not=20
think that your correction fundamentally changes the situation.  It
would have been better if we had characterized these systems based on
how received packets are handled, rather than based on the number of
processors in the system, but that doesn't change the fact that there=20
are two type of systems:

(1) Those where the packet is initially received by a component (such
as a NPU or a CPU) that can distinguish between control and data
traffic by looking at the CAPWAP headers.  There may be additional=20
processors on this type of systems, so using the phrase "single-
processor" to describe these systems was not correct.

AND

(2) Those where the packet is initially received by switching
hardware that can only efficiently distinguish between control and=20
data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports.

There are both high- and low-performance systems that correspond to
each architecture.

> Based on the clarification above, it should be clear that this is=20
> also a mischaracterization. Either approach will work in either of
> the architectures, and in particular, in either of the
> architectures _as they are deployed today_. The real problem
> appears to be that one vendor has made a conscious choice to limit=20
> the control/data switching facility to 5-tuple-based solutions.

I am personally aware of switching equipment from more than one
vendor that is restricted to using a five-tuple for switching
incoming traffic.  I am not currently aware of whether these systems=20
are sold as WLAN switches, but I believe that many of them could be
software upgraded to serve in that role.  Given the widespread
deployment of switches that employ this architecture, I believe that
it is desirable to make sure that CAPWAP can be added, as a software=20
upgrade, to systems of this type.

I could express some opinions about which architecture is better, but
my opinion on that subject is immaterial.  Both systems are widely
deployed, and I think that we are likely to see wider deployment of=20
CAPWAP if it can work well on both architectures.

>> This complexity is a consequence of the choice to tunnel all WLAN
>> data traffic to the AC.  In split-MAC local-forwarding mode,
>> only the=20
>> control plane traffic would be sent to the AC, and data plane
>> forwarding would be handled by the WTPs themselves.
>
> This also seems mischaracterized, because in all currently defined=20
> split-MAC modes, a data channel must be established in order to
> handle 802.11 management and authentication frames (even when
> you're doing local bridging of the data).

Perhaps Mani could respond to this point, as he was the originator of=20
this text.

> In any event, Margaret is right: the working group needs to speak
> up so we can close this and move on. I'm done arguing about this,
> and life will go on one way or another regardless of what we=20
> choose. But at least, we should all be clear on what's happened
> here, and go into this eyes wide open.

Thanks for your comments, and for your continuing efforts to keep
this work moving forward.=20

Margaret

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=20


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Is this the consensus? Or, we are =
still
looking for a consensus? The current draft has a two-port UDP solution, =
but
does not specify how to handle Discovery (or, I missed something). Do we =
need a
third port? &nbsp;We support the two-port solution if the Discovery =
issue is
resolved. We also can agree to a one-port solution. The WG has to make a
decision.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ran-Fun Chiu</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Dorothy Stanley
[mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, October =
05, 2006
3:40 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Partha Narasimhan<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> Margaret Wasserman; =
capwap<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Capwap] =
2-Port/Mux
Issue Discussion</span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>All,</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Summary: </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>In one current (and potentially future) AC product =
implementation(s),
packets are initially received by component<br>
hardware that can only efficiently distinguish between control and<br>
data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports. These
implementations<br>
cannot efficiently distinguish between control and data traffic within a =
single
port.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>In some&nbsp; 5 known current (and potentially future) AC =
product
implementations, packets are initially received by a component (such<br>
as a NPU or a CPU) that can efficiently distinguish between control and =
data<br>
traffic by looking at the CAPWAP headers. These implementations can also
distinguish between<br>
control and data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP =
ports.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Questions:</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>a)<span =
style=3D'font-size-adjust: none;
font-stretch: normal'></span></font><font size=3D1><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></font>Should the CAPWAP =
protocol
include support for a single port mode? </p>

<div style=3D'margin-left:30.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Answer: Yes. to enable capable product implementations to take
advantage of the simplicity, reduced <br>
complexity and&nbsp; NAT traversal benefits of single port mode =
operation.</span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>b)<span =
style=3D'font-size-adjust: none;
font-stretch: normal'></span></font><font size=3D1><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></font>Should the CAPWAP =
protocol
include a means to enable its efficient implementation on =
UDP-port-only<br>
product implementations?</p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in;text-indent:
-.25in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Answer:
Desired, not required as support, though not efficient, of a single port =
mode
seems to be available..</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:6.2pt;text-indent:-.25in'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
It is very disappointing to see the the time and energy of the WG so =
wantonly
wasted in pursuit of non-existent <br>
issues surrounding this topic.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Dorothy<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dgmailquote><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On 10/5/06, <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Partha
Narasimhan</span></b> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:partha@arubanetworks.com">partha@arubanetworks.com</a>&gt;=

wrote:</span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>My two cents below, FWIW.<br>
<br>
- Assuming that most currently deployed L2 switches can be upgraded =
to<br>
support CAPWAP merely with a software upgrade is well beyond the =
limits<br>
of what I would normally assume in a typical day in my life. <br>
<br>
- In all of the debate, I haven't seen the proponents of the =
two-port<br>
solution acknowledge significant additional complexity this solution<br>
imposes on the entire protocol. Overall, it increases the<br>
cost/complexity of implementation and/or trouble-shooting over the <br>
single-port mux solution.<br>
<br>
- The single-port mux solution can be made to work on existing gear,<br>
except it may or may not be as efficient as an implementation on =
some<br>
other gear that is more recent or being designed now. The current <br>
protocol design work should not be influenced by the inefficiencies =
of<br>
implementing it in gear that was designed well before the need for<br>
CAPWAP crept into people's minds.<br>
<br>
- Choosing a more complicated solution over a simpler one would also =
<br>
lead to the protocol not getting deployed because of the cost of<br>
implementing it. I am especially concerned whether the WTP vendors =
can<br>
bear the increased cost of implementation and interoperability =
testing<br>
and whether this will influence their decisions to drop support for <br>
CAPWAP in their gear. This is the other side of the coin to the =
argument<br>
that designing the protocol, albeit with a more complex solution, to =
fit<br>
older implementations would increase the chance of it being widely <br>
deployed.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
partha<br>
<br>
PS: While debating this issue, we went through what we now know were<br>
detours along non-existent routing and QoS issues. Makes one wonder =
what<br>
is really behind every long and drawn-out discussion in this WG. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com">margaret@thingmagic.com</a>]<br>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:24 PM<br>
To: Scott G. Kelly<br>
Cc: capwap<br>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Scott,<br>
<br>
I'd just like to state, for clarity, that the message you are<br>
responding to came from all three of the CAPWAP =
chairs.&nbsp;&nbsp;Although I <br>
drafted and sent the message, it did reflect input from Mani and<br>
Dorothy.<br>
<br>
This response is just from me, and the opinions expressed are mine.<br>
The other chairs may not agree.<br>
<br>
On Sep 28, 2006, at 1:44 PM, Scott G. Kelly wrote: <br>
&gt;&gt; - Single-Processor:&nbsp;&nbsp;In this architecture, the =
control plane
and the<br>
&gt;&gt; data plane run on a single processor.&nbsp;&nbsp;The =
demultiplexing of
control<br>
&gt;&gt; and data packets happens on that processor.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; - Separate Data &amp; Control Planes:&nbsp;&nbsp;In this =
architecture,
the<br>
&gt;&gt; data and<br>
&gt;&gt; control planes run on separate processors (and possibly on =
separate<br>
&gt;&gt; cards), typically connected via a switching =
fabric.&nbsp;&nbsp;This is
<br>
&gt;&gt; a common<br>
&gt;&gt; hardware architecture for higher-end routing and switching =
hardware,<br>
&gt;&gt; and it relies on a port-based splitting/load-balancing approach =
to<br>
&gt;&gt; separate the control and data traffic.&nbsp;&nbsp;For CAPWAP to =
work <br>
&gt;&gt; efficiently on these systems, it must be possible to =
distinguish the<br>
&gt;&gt; control and data traffic in the switching hardware, which =
is<br>
&gt;&gt; typically done based on the five-tuple of the send &amp; recv =
IP <br>
&gt;&gt; addresses, the protocol (UDP), and the send &amp; recv port<br>
&gt;&gt; numbers.&nbsp;&nbsp;The<br>
&gt;&gt; switching hardware cannot do the type of deep packet =
inspection<br>
&gt;&gt; required to demultiplex on CAPWAP header fields. <br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This is one of the mischaracterizations I see. The issues have<br>
&gt; nothing to do with how many processors there are - they have to =
do<br>
&gt; with separation of control and data planes, and with the switching =
<br>
&gt; facility used to distribute packets between these two planes. =
This<br>
&gt; is a critical distinction.<br>
<br>
I agree with you comment, and your private note on this subject was<br>
very helpful to advance my thinking on this matter. However, I do not =
<br>
think that your correction fundamentally changes the =
situation.&nbsp;&nbsp;It<br>
would have been better if we had characterized these systems based =
on<br>
how received packets are handled, rather than based on the number of<br>
processors in the system, but that doesn't change the fact that there =
<br>
are two type of systems:<br>
<br>
(1) Those where the packet is initially received by a component =
(such<br>
as a NPU or a CPU) that can distinguish between control and data<br>
traffic by looking at the CAPWAP headers.&nbsp;&nbsp;There may be =
additional <br>
processors on this type of systems, so using the phrase =
&quot;single-<br>
processor&quot; to describe these systems was not correct.<br>
<br>
AND<br>
<br>
(2) Those where the packet is initially received by switching<br>
hardware that can only efficiently distinguish between control and <br>
data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports.<br>
<br>
There are both high- and low-performance systems that correspond to<br>
each architecture.<br>
<br>
&gt; Based on the clarification above, it should be clear that this is =
<br>
&gt; also a mischaracterization. Either approach will work in either =
of<br>
&gt; the architectures, and in particular, in either of the<br>
&gt; architectures _as they are deployed today_. The real problem<br>
&gt; appears to be that one vendor has made a conscious choice to limit =
<br>
&gt; the control/data switching facility to 5-tuple-based solutions.<br>
<br>
I am personally aware of switching equipment from more than one<br>
vendor that is restricted to using a five-tuple for switching<br>
incoming traffic.&nbsp;&nbsp;I am not currently aware of whether these =
systems <br>
are sold as WLAN switches, but I believe that many of them could be<br>
software upgraded to serve in that role.&nbsp;&nbsp;Given the =
widespread<br>
deployment of switches that employ this architecture, I believe that<br>
it is desirable to make sure that CAPWAP can be added, as a software =
<br>
upgrade, to systems of this type.<br>
<br>
I could express some opinions about which architecture is better, =
but<br>
my opinion on that subject is immaterial.&nbsp;&nbsp;Both systems are =
widely<br>
deployed, and I think that we are likely to see wider deployment of <br>
CAPWAP if it can work well on both architectures.<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; This complexity is a consequence of the choice to tunnel all =
WLAN<br>
&gt;&gt; data traffic to the AC.&nbsp;&nbsp;In split-MAC =
local-forwarding mode,<br>
&gt;&gt; only the <br>
&gt;&gt; control plane traffic would be sent to the AC, and data =
plane<br>
&gt;&gt; forwarding would be handled by the WTPs themselves.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This also seems mischaracterized, because in all currently defined =
<br>
&gt; split-MAC modes, a data channel must be established in order to<br>
&gt; handle 802.11 management and authentication frames (even when<br>
&gt; you're doing local bridging of the data).<br>
<br>
Perhaps Mani could respond to this point, as he was the originator of =
<br>
this text.<br>
<br>
&gt; In any event, Margaret is right: the working group needs to =
speak<br>
&gt; up so we can close this and move on. I'm done arguing about =
this,<br>
&gt; and life will go on one way or another regardless of what we <br>
&gt; choose. But at least, we should all be clear on what's happened<br>
&gt; here, and go into this eyes wide open.<br>
<br>
Thanks for your comments, and for your continuing efforts to keep<br>
this work moving forward. <br>
<br>
Margaret<br>
<br>
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue 214 -
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue 214 -
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Second, 802.1X packet may be encrypted, if the AC supports 802.11i
encryption.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: zhaoyujin 31390 [mailto:zhaoyujin@huawei.com] 
> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 2:12 AM
> To: Michael Montemurro
> Cc: capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution 
> to Issue 214 - Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames
> 
> Firstly, I have some doubt one this suggestion.
> 
> 1. If CAPWAP difines like this, AP device must decode the 
> payload frames of 802.11 frames.
> 2. Another problem, the 802.1x priority should be implement 
> by 802.11e. When station sends 802.11 data frames, it can set 
> 802.11e priority. AP should transfer 802.11e to actual CAPWAP 
> packet priority.
> 
> So that I think CAPWAP does not need consider the priority of 
> 802.11 data frames payload.
> 
> Thanks
> Michael
> 
> 
> 
> >Practically speaking, IEEE 802.1X frames should be 
> transmitted at the same priority as >IEEE 802.11 Management frames. 
> > 
> >I will update Section 11.5, rename Quality of Service for 
> IEEE 802.11 
> >Control Messages >to "Quality of Service for IEEE 802.11 
> control messages and IEEE 802.1X EAPoL frames" and add text 
> to >indicate that IEEE 802.1X frames are sent at a higher priority.
> > 
> >Cheers,
> > 
> >Mike
> 
> 
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We'd definitely need to specify a value for keyRSC in the appropriate 
section.  That would be in addition to the changes to the security 
considerations.  Without specifying a default value, we could have 
interoperability issues between WTPs and ACs.

-- 
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy

Dorothy Stanley wrote:
> Behcet,
> 
> My understanding of Scott's recommendations is that
>  text be added into the security considerations section.
> - no additional CAPWAP protocol exchange between the WTP and AC
> - no specification of setting the keyRSC value to 0.
> 
> Without some specification in the protocol, how can the WTP provide
> the KeyRSC info to the AC in a way that the AC is sure to understand? 
> The most we can say
> with respect to the standard is that an AC implementation is free to 
> comes up with its own algorithm to
> set the keyRSC value. 
> 
> Dorothy
> 
> On 10/5/06, *Behcet Sarikaya* <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com 
> <mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>> wrote:
> 
>     I agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as a possibility.
>     As far as interoperability is concerned, value 0 is interoperable
>     but not correct. If we allow implementations to snif in and modify
>     then any value should be acceptable which may be a concern for
>     interoperability?
> 
>     ----- Original Message ----
>     From: Scott G. Kelly < s.kelly@ix.netcom.com
>     <mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>>
>     To: capwap <capwap@frascone.com <mailto:capwap@frascone.com>>
>     Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM
>     Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
> 
>     Following up once again - after careful review, I still agree with
>     Charles, and here's some suggested text for the security considerations:
> 
>     13.5.  IEEE 802.11 Security
> 
>         When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP
>     encryption, the
>        CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.  Derived
>        session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting in
>        many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD discourage the use
>        of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic
>     solutions
>        such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.
> 
>        When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol
>        may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the link
>     security
>       (packet encryption and integrity verification) is provided by the
>     WTP or the AC.
>        When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new
>     security
>        concerns are introduced.
> 
>        However, when the WTP provides link security, a new vulnerability
>     will
>        exist when the following conditions are true:
> 
>         o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID
>             (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already exists
> 
>             o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK
> 
>        Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter (KeyRSC)
>        associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors the
>        4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC is not
>        known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.
>        The client will update its Key RSC value to the current valid KeyRSC
>        upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior to
>     this,
>        previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was secured with the
>     existing
>        GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic as
>     valid.
> 
>        Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or broadcast
>        frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to such
>        replay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is
>     expected that
>        replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP.
> 
>        The only way to completely close this window is to provide the
>        exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any
>        other approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given
>        the low relative threat level this presents, the additional
>     complexity
>        introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted.
>     That
>        is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this regard.
>     ==>
>     However, WTP implementations MAY provide the exact KeyRSC value
>     before forwarding message 3 of the 4-way handshake.
> 
>     --behcet
> 
>     _________________________________________________________________
>     To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
>     http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> 
>     Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
>     <http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap>
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 05 23:55:43 2006
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
Thread-Index: Acbo5i4byALsl6JxQDuyct94MfDlVQABuubQ
From: "Cheng Hong" <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>
To: "Charles Clancy" <clancy@cs.umd.edu>,
	"Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>
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Cc: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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Hi Charles and all,

To specify a "default" value means specifying it to "zero". Otherwise,
it would not work. Say, the "default" value is set to 100, but the
actual sequence number used could be 50 at the moment. It means the STA
is not able to receive the Broadcast/Multicast packets for the next 50
seqeunce count.

So, I think we need some clarification on what is the decision here. Is
the decision now:
- No change to the protocol design except some security disclaimers.
And, specify a default value (0) to be used by the AC always.

Or, We also allow:
- The WTP and AC can choose to implement info exchange methods (a simple
element to be specified in the draft). However, if some AC choose not to
support such mechanism, it will have to set the KeyRSC to zero. And a
security disclaimer to state what is the effect of setting the KeyRSC to
zero.

cheers

Cheng Hong


 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] 
> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 9:24 AM
> To: Dorothy Stanley
> Cc: capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> Considerations
> 
> We'd definitely need to specify a value for keyRSC in the 
> appropriate section.  That would be in addition to the 
> changes to the security considerations.  Without specifying a 
> default value, we could have interoperability issues between 
> WTPs and ACs.
> 
> --
> t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
> 
> Dorothy Stanley wrote:
> > Behcet,
> > 
> > My understanding of Scott's recommendations is that  text be added 
> > into the security considerations section.
> > - no additional CAPWAP protocol exchange between the WTP and AC
> > - no specification of setting the keyRSC value to 0.
> > 
> > Without some specification in the protocol, how can the WTP provide 
> > the KeyRSC info to the AC in a way that the AC is sure to 
> understand?
> > The most we can say
> > with respect to the standard is that an AC implementation 
> is free to 
> > comes up with its own algorithm to set the keyRSC value.
> > 
> > Dorothy
> > 
> > On 10/5/06, *Behcet Sarikaya* <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com 
> > <mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>> wrote:
> > 
> >     I agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as a 
> possibility.
> >     As far as interoperability is concerned, value 0 is 
> interoperable
> >     but not correct. If we allow implementations to snif in 
> and modify
> >     then any value should be acceptable which may be a concern for
> >     interoperability?
> > 
> >     ----- Original Message ----
> >     From: Scott G. Kelly < s.kelly@ix.netcom.com
> >     <mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>>
> >     To: capwap <capwap@frascone.com <mailto:capwap@frascone.com>>
> >     Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM
> >     Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> > Considerations
> > 
> >     Following up once again - after careful review, I still 
> agree with
> >     Charles, and here's some suggested text for the 
> security considerations:
> > 
> >     13.5.  IEEE 802.11 Security
> > 
> >         When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP
> >     encryption, the
> >        CAPWAP protocol does not add any new 
> vulnerabilities.  Derived
> >        session keys between the STA and WTP can be 
> compromised, resulting in
> >        many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD 
> discourage the use
> >        of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic
> >     solutions
> >        such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.
> > 
> >        When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol
> >        may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on 
> whether the link
> >     security
> >       (packet encryption and integrity verification) is 
> provided by the
> >     WTP or the AC.
> >        When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new
> >     security
> >        concerns are introduced.
> > 
> >        However, when the WTP provides link security, a new 
> vulnerability
> >     will
> >        exist when the following conditions are true:
> > 
> >         o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID
> >             (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already 
> > exists
> > 
> >             o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK
> > 
> >        Under these circumstances, the receive sequence 
> counter (KeyRSC)
> >        associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the 
> AC anchors the
> >        4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of 
> the KeyRSC is not
> >        known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.
> >        The client will update its Key RSC value to the 
> current valid KeyRSC
> >        upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, 
> but prior to
> >     this,
> >        previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was 
> secured with the
> >     existing
> >        GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this 
> traffic as
> >     valid.
> > 
> >        Typically, busy networks will produce numerous 
> multicast or broadcast
> >        frames per second, so the window of opportunity with 
> respect to such
> >        replay is expected to be very small. In most 
> conditions, it is
> >     expected that
> >        replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP.
> > 
> >        The only way to completely close this window is to 
> provide the
> >        exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any
> >        other approach simply narrows the window to varying 
> degrees. Given
> >        the low relative threat level this presents, the additional
> >     complexity
> >        introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is 
> not warranted.
> >     That
> >        is, this specification provides for a calculated 
> risk in this regard.
> >     ==>
> >     However, WTP implementations MAY provide the exact KeyRSC value
> >     before forwarding message 3 of the 4-way handshake.
> > 
> >     --behcet
> > 
> >     
> _________________________________________________________________
> >     To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, 
> please visit:
> >     http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> > 
> >     Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> >     <http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > 
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> > 
> > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
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From: zhaoyujin 31390 <zhaoyujin@huawei.com>
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Cc: Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com>, capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] =?gb2312?B?u9i4tA==?=:Re: Proposed Resolution to :One
 issue,
 please discuss: I suggest some change for "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power"
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--===============1921393290==
Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312
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Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Content-disposition: inline

Hi Margaret =26 Dorothy=3A

  DBm can be used=2C but DBm units is not universal as mM=2E Because deff=
erent device maybe defines different DBm level=2C CAPWAP is difficult to =
track this difference=2E

Regards
Michael

This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from HUAWEI=2C=
 which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed =
above=2E Any use of the information contained herein in any way (includin=
g=2C but not limited to=2C total or partial disclosure=2C reproduction=2C=
 or dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient=27s) is p=
rohibited=2E If you receive this e-mail in error=2C please notify the sen=
der by phone or email =

immediately and delete it!

----- =D4=AD=D3=CA=BC=FE -----
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=3A Dorothy Stanley =3Cdstanley1389=40gmail=2Ecom=3E
=C8=D5=C6=DA=3A =D0=C7=C6=DA=CE=E5=2C =CA=AE=D4=C2 6=C8=D5=2C 2006 =C9=CF=
=CE=E73=3A14
=D6=F7=CC=E2=3A Re=3A =5BCapwap=5D Proposed Resolution to =3AOne issue=2C=
 please discuss=3A I suggest some change for =2211=2E9=2E18=2E IEEE 802=2E=
11 Tx Power=22

=3E Margaret=2C
=3E =

=3E dBm units could also be used=2E This message element=2C and the TX Po=
wer
=3E Level use mW=2C the TX Power Level to correspond with the 802=2E11 MI=
B
=3E definitions=2C which use mW units=2E
=3E =

=3E Dorothy
=3E =

=3E On 10/5/06=2C Margaret Wasserman =3Cmargaret=40thingmagic=2Ecom=3E wr=
ote=3A
=3E =3E
=3E =3E
=3E =3E Hi All=2C
=3E =3E
=3E =3E This request is based on the assumption that the WTP=27s power le=
vel
=3E =3E will actually be set in dBm=2E  If that is true=2C why not use dB=
m (or
=3E =3E centi-dBm) as the unit for this attribute=2C instead of mW (or 0=2E=
1 =

=3E mW)=3F=3E
=3E =3E Margaret
=3E =3E
=3E =3E On Oct 5=2C 2006=2C at 12=3A34 PM=2C Dorothy Stanley wrote=3A
=3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E All=2C
=3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E The proposed resolution to the 11=2E9=2E18 comment is=3A Acce=
pt the
=3E =3E =3E commenters suggestion=2C change
=3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E    From =22Current Tx Power=3A  This attribute contains the t=
ransmit
=3E =3E =3E output power in mW=2E=22
=3E =3E =3E    to   =22Current Tx Power=3A  This attribute contains the t=
ransmit
=3E =3E =3E output power in 0=2E1mW=2E=22
=3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E Comments welcome=2C
=3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E Thanks=2C
=3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E Dorothy
=3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E On 9/25/06=2C zhaoyujin 31390 =3Czhaoyujin=40huawei=2Ecom=3E =
wrote=3A Section
=3E =3E =3E 11=2E9=2E18 has following discripiton=2C I suggestion some ch=
ange
=3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E    From =22Current Tx Power=3A  This attribute contains the t=
ransmit
=3E =3E =3E output power in mW=2E=22
=3E =3E =3E    to   =22Current Tx Power=3A  This attribute contains the t=
ransmit
=3E =3E =3E output power in 0=2E1mW=2E=22
=3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E The reason is=3A normally WLAN will use dbm=2E The conversion=
 between
=3E =3E =3E dbm and mw can not satisfy this TLV requirement=2E If capwap
=3E =3E =3E transimit one mw value=2C the device can=27t precise get corr=
esponding
=3E =3E =3E dbm=2E
=3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E   For example
=3E =3E =3E          1 dbm=3C-----=3E1=2E3mw  ----=3E 1mw
=3E =3E =3E          2 dbm=3C-----=3E1=2E6mw  ----=3E 2mw
=3E =3E =3E          3 dbm=3C-----=3E2=2E0mw  ----=3E 2mw
=3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E   This time=2C if capwap transmits 2 mw=2C system doesn=27t k=
now it is
=3E =3E =3E 2dbm or 3 dbm=2E
=3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E The following is suggestion=3A
=3E =3E =3E   For example
=3E =3E =3E          1 dbm=3C-----=3E1=2E3mw  ----=3E 13mw
=3E =3E =3E          2 dbm=3C-----=3E 1=2E6mw  ----=3E 16mw
=3E =3E =3E          3 dbm=3C-----=3E2=2E0mw  ----=3E 20mw
=3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E Thanks
=3E =3E =3E Michael
=3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E =3E   The Tx power message element value is bi-directional=2E=
  When
=3E =3E =3E sent by
=3E =3E =3E =3E   the WTP=2C it contains the current power level of the r=
adio in
=3E =3E =3E =3E   question=2E  When sent by the AC=2C it contains the pow=
er =

=3E level the
=3E =3E =3E WTP
=3E =3E =3E =3E   MUST adhere to=2E
=3E =3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E =3E        0                   1                   2         =
    =

=3E      3
=3E =3E =3E =3E        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 =
5 6 =

=3E 7 8
=3E =3E =3E 9 0 1
=3E =3E =3E =3E       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-
=3E +-+-+-
=3E =3E =3E +-+-+
=3E =3E =3E =3E       =7C    Radio ID   =7C    Reserved   =7C        Curr=
ent Tx
=3E =3E =3E Power       =7C
=3E =3E =3E =3E       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-
=3E +-+-+-
=3E =3E =3E +-+-+
=3E =3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E =3E   Type=3A  1041 for IEEE 802=2E11 Tx Power
=3E =3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E =3E   Length=3A  4
=3E =3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E =3E   Radio ID=3A  An 8-bit value representing the radio to c=
onfigure=2E
=3E =3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E =3E   Reserved=3A  MUST be set to zero
=3E =3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E =3E   Current Tx Power=3A  This attribute contains the transm=
it output
=3E =3E =3E power
=3E =3E =3E =3E      in mW=2E
=3E =3E =3E
=3E =3E =3E This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information =
from
=3E =3E =3E HUAWEI=2C which is intended only for the person or entity who=
se
=3E =3E =3E address is listed above=2E Any use of the information contain=
ed
=3E =3E =3E herein in any way (including=2C but not limited to=2C total o=
r partial
=3E =3E =3E disclosure=2C reproduction=2C or dissemination) by persons ot=
her than
=3E =3E =3E the intended recipient=27s) is prohibited=2E If you receive t=
his e-
=3E mail=3E =3E in error=2C please notify the sender by phone or email
=3E =3E =3E immediately and delete it!
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=3E =3E =3E =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
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From: young <young@huawei-3com.com>
To: dstanley1389@gmail.com, capwap@frascone.com
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components
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Hi, Dorothy:
Thanks for your proposed resolutions.

In your Proposed Resolution, you mentioned that " While there may be common
elements, it's not clear that the =

CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying the
common elements
across wireless systems."
If it is not clear, I suggest that WG or mailing list had better take time
to make it clear.
Otherwise, how to decide what info should put in the base part if base part
scope is not clear?
I thought a clear and common understanding of base part's rule and scope is
very important for
base part separation from wireless specific binding.

I give my comment for the proposed resolutions to issue 204.
1) 4.4.38.  WTP Radio Information
Sorry for I don't make issue clear in my comment.
I suggest that WTP Radio Information could be kept in the current section
4.4.
While 802.11a/b/g/n these kinds info could be defined by 802.11binding.
We could add a Wireless binding identifier in the WTP Radio Information. =

By this way, we could identify any Wireless binding's radio type definition.
The Wireless binding identifier could be probably eventually managed by
IANA.
No matter what method will by used for Wireless binding identifier, it is a
key
Point to help base protocol to separate any wireless binding.
I thought that Wireless binding identifier method will be a common issue.
2) 11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power
I suggest we could define a =93WTP Radio configuration=94 TLV.
By using wireless binding identifier, there will be no conflict with
Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table.
Channel also could be put here.
As AC will configure AP's RF parameter (AC to AP), and AP will report its
current
Configuration to AC, the TLV will be carried in the configuration message in
bi-direction.
More TLV could be added into the TLV if it is required.
|---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|------
---|---------|
| Radio ID| country code| wireless binding identifier | Max Tx Power |Tx
Power | Channel  |
|---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|------
-- |----------|       =

As Tx power these kind info will not be carried in the discovery phase, I
suggest that =93WTP Radio configuration=94
is required instead of extenuation of " WTP Radio Information".

Regards
Richard (shiyang)





From: Dorothy Stanley (dstanley1389gmail.com) =

Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:08:21 -0700 (PDT) =

All,

Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components are =

listed below.

Comments please.

Thanks,

Dorothy

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
1) 4.4.38.  WTP Radio Information
Comment: As the section should be work for any wireless implement, I suggest
the =

following value should be moved to 802.11 binding. The value should be
defined by wireless =

technology binding.
      1 - 802.11b:  An IEEE 802.11b radio.
      2 - 802.11a:  An IEEE 802.11a radio.
      4 - =

802.11g:  An IEEE 802.11g radio.
      8 - 802.11n:  An IEEE 802.11n radio.
Proposed Resolution: Move the "need to know" the 802.11 technology specific
radio types to the 802.11 binding, modifying the WTP Radio Information
element
as follows:
IEEE 802.11 Radio Information
   The IEEE 802.11 radio information message element is used to communicate
the
   radio information for each IEEE 802.11 radio on the WTP.  The Discovery
Request message MUST
   include one such message element per radio in the WTP.  The Radio-Type
field is used by the
   AC to determine which 802.11 technology specific binding is to be used
with the WTP.
   The value contains two fields, as shown.

      0                   1                   2                   3
      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
     |   Radio ID    |           Radio Type                          |
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

     | Radio Type    |
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

   Type:  38 for WTP Radio Information
   Length:  5
   Radio ID:  The Radio Identifier, which typically refers to an
      interface index on the WTP
   Radio Type:  The type of IEEE 802.11 radio present.  =

      The following values are supported:
      1 - 802.11b:  An IEEE 802.11b radio.
      2 - 802.11a:  An IEEE 802.11a radio.
      4 - =

802.11g:  An IEEE 802.11g radio.
      8 - 802.11n:  An IEEE 802.11n radio.
      0xOF - 802.11b, 802.11a, 802.11g and 802.11n:  The 4 radio types
         indicated are supported in the WTP.
=A0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
2) 11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power
Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, as channel and Tx
power are =

common parameters for RF management.
Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter

that TX power level is a common parameter for RF management; however the
IEEE 802.11 TX Power field values are defined as being the values
defined in IEEE 802.11Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table, and thus are not
extensible to other bindings. Expect that each binding will define
values relative to its definitions.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
3)  Add "WTP radio channel"
Comment: As per 2), we could define a TLV to report current channel (AP to
AC) or to =

configure channel (AC to AP).
Now,. 11.9.12.  IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control and 11.9.5.  IEEE 802.11 Direct =

Sequence Control has channel configuration information. =

But I think that a specific TLV for it is better. By this way, 4.4 will
provide
more common parameter for any wireless technology.

     0                   1                   2                   3
        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

       |    Radio ID   |    Reserved   |        Current Channel       |

       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

The commenter suggests the following:
3)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4 =

The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind parameter
are common for any kind wireless binding.
I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part.
Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power
these kind Info should not be sent =

 during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio
configuration" is better.
 If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message
should be suggested by protocol.
The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type,
Tx power, Channel, country code and so on. =

For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way,
AC could configure WTP's RF parameter
and know current configuration on the WTP radio.
If this way, current "11.9.18.=A0 IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12.=A0 IEEE
802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5.=A0 =

IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE
802.11 related element.
=A0Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft.=A0 While there may be common
elements, it's not clear that the =

CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying the
common elements
across wireless systems. =


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
4) 11.9.24.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Fail Alarm Indications

Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, it could be a common
event for =

any wireless technology.
 Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commmenter
that a fail alarm indication could be a common event for
any wireless technology. Each radio technology may want to
have additional information reported with the event however. Not
sure there is sufficient benefit shown for a common defintiion at this
point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------

5) 11.9.1.  IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN
How about we rename "WLAN" as wireless service? By this way, we could
achieve =

abstract while make it work for most wireless technology.
If it is ok, we could define "add wireless service, delete wireless service,

update wireless service" in the section =

4.4.
Any wireless technology could add its specific parameter in the binding =

section.

The commenter suggests a solution:
1) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless =
service",
and put it in the section 4.4
The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract than "WLAN".
Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep =

Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode
these kinds common element (more element maybe put here). =

While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding
identifier.
The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using
( Probably eventually managed by IANA)
Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft.
The IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN message element is 802.11 specific and used
together with several other message elements to define a WLAN service.
The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the =

CAPWAP protocol to add a generic wireless service. It's not clear that
there are enough additional elements common to multiple wireless
services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
6) 11.9.22.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service

As per 5), I think we could define "WTP Quality of Service"in the section =

4.4. Radio ID, Tag Packets and Queue Depth could be defined in the "WTP
Quality of =

Service".

While CWMin and so on could be defined in the IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of =

Service.
The commenter suggests the following solution:
2) Rename "11.9.22.=A0 IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as =A0"WTP Quali=
ty of
Service"
Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP
Quality of Service".
For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be
great.
Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft.
The IEEE 802.11 WTP QOS message element is 802.11 specific and is needed
to convey the CWMin , CWMax and other very specific 802.11 data. =

The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the =

CAPWAP protocol to include a "generic QOS" message element. It's not clear
that
there are enough elements common to multiple wireless
services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time.
There is at least 1 - the Tag packets type, which each binding can inlcude
if
desired.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
7. Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as =A0"WTP Statistics" in the section =
4.4

Comment: Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I
think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" =

could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like "RTS Success Count"
and so on.
For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
Proposed resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter
that many of the statistics are common across wireless technologies.
However the IEEE 802.11 Statistics values are defined as being the values
defined in various IEEE 802.11 MIB variables and thus are not extensible to
other bindings. Expect that each binding will define values relative to its
definitions.

On 9/28/06, young <young [at] huawei-3com.com> wrote: =

Hi Pat and all,
I used to raise issue #204, and here intend to give solution.
1) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless =
service",
and put it in the section 4.4
The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract than "WLAN".
Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep =

Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode
these kinds common element (more element maybe put here). =

While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding
identifier.
The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using
( Probably eventually managed by IANA)
=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A00 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 =
5 6 7 8 9 0 1
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |=A0=A0=A0 Radio ID=A0=A0 |=A0=A0=A0 WLAN ID=A0=A0=A0 |=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 MAC Mode=A0=A0=A0 | Tunnel
Mode=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Wireless binding i=
dentifier =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0|
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+ =

=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0|=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Type=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0|=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Length=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0|
=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+ =

=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0|=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Value...
=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+ =

It is similar for "IEEE 802.11 deletes WLAN" and "IEEE 802.11 Update WLAN".
=A0
2) Rename "11.9.22.=A0 IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as =A0"WTP Quali=
ty of
Service"
Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP
Quality of Service".
For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be
great.
=A0
3)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4 =

The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind parameter
are common for any kind wireless binding.
I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part.
Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power
these kind Info should not be sent =

 during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio
configuration" is better.
 If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message
should be suggested by protocol.
The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type,
Tx power, Channel, country code and so on. =

For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way,
AC could configure WTP's RF parameter
and know current configuration on the WTP radio.
If this way, current "11.9.18.=A0 IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12.=A0 IEEE
802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5.=A0 =

IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE
802.11 related element.
=A04)=A0=A0 Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as =A0"WTP Statistics" in the=
 section
4.4 =

Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I think most
the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" =

could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like "RTS Success Count"
and so on.
For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
=A0
Any way, I thought many TLV will change their location as new CAPWAP will be
divided into two parts.
=A0
Cheers
=A0
Richard =A0(Shiyang)



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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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You're suggesting the disclaimer and "static initialization value" 
(perhaps more accurate term than a "default value") would be mandatory 
to implement, and there would also be an optional information exchange 
to synchronize the KeyRSC to something else.  That certainly sounds like 
a good compromise, but I suspect a little more complicated to implement 
than it first appears.  For example, the WTP would need to communicate 
it's ability to be queried for the KeyRSC to the AC during initialization.

-- 
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy

Cheng Hong wrote:
> Hi Charles and all,
> 
> To specify a "default" value means specifying it to "zero". Otherwise,
> it would not work. Say, the "default" value is set to 100, but the
> actual sequence number used could be 50 at the moment. It means the STA
> is not able to receive the Broadcast/Multicast packets for the next 50
> seqeunce count.
> 
> So, I think we need some clarification on what is the decision here. Is
> the decision now:
> - No change to the protocol design except some security disclaimers.
> And, specify a default value (0) to be used by the AC always.
> 
> Or, We also allow:
> - The WTP and AC can choose to implement info exchange methods (a simple
> element to be specified in the draft). However, if some AC choose not to
> support such mechanism, it will have to set the KeyRSC to zero. And a
> security disclaimer to state what is the effect of setting the KeyRSC to
> zero.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Cheng Hong
> 
> 
>  
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] 
>> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 9:24 AM
>> To: Dorothy Stanley
>> Cc: capwap
>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
>> Considerations
>>
>> We'd definitely need to specify a value for keyRSC in the 
>> appropriate section.  That would be in addition to the 
>> changes to the security considerations.  Without specifying a 
>> default value, we could have interoperability issues between 
>> WTPs and ACs.
>>
>> --
>> t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
>>
>> Dorothy Stanley wrote:
>>> Behcet,
>>>
>>> My understanding of Scott's recommendations is that  text be added 
>>> into the security considerations section.
>>> - no additional CAPWAP protocol exchange between the WTP and AC
>>> - no specification of setting the keyRSC value to 0.
>>>
>>> Without some specification in the protocol, how can the WTP provide 
>>> the KeyRSC info to the AC in a way that the AC is sure to 
>> understand?
>>> The most we can say
>>> with respect to the standard is that an AC implementation 
>> is free to 
>>> comes up with its own algorithm to set the keyRSC value.
>>>
>>> Dorothy
>>>
>>> On 10/5/06, *Behcet Sarikaya* <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com 
>>> <mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     I agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as a 
>> possibility.
>>>     As far as interoperability is concerned, value 0 is 
>> interoperable
>>>     but not correct. If we allow implementations to snif in 
>> and modify
>>>     then any value should be acceptable which may be a concern for
>>>     interoperability?
>>>
>>>     ----- Original Message ----
>>>     From: Scott G. Kelly < s.kelly@ix.netcom.com
>>>     <mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>>
>>>     To: capwap <capwap@frascone.com <mailto:capwap@frascone.com>>
>>>     Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM
>>>     Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
>>> Considerations
>>>
>>>     Following up once again - after careful review, I still 
>> agree with
>>>     Charles, and here's some suggested text for the 
>> security considerations:
>>>     13.5.  IEEE 802.11 Security
>>>
>>>         When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP
>>>     encryption, the
>>>        CAPWAP protocol does not add any new 
>> vulnerabilities.  Derived
>>>        session keys between the STA and WTP can be 
>> compromised, resulting in
>>>        many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD 
>> discourage the use
>>>        of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic
>>>     solutions
>>>        such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.
>>>
>>>        When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol
>>>        may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on 
>> whether the link
>>>     security
>>>       (packet encryption and integrity verification) is 
>> provided by the
>>>     WTP or the AC.
>>>        When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new
>>>     security
>>>        concerns are introduced.
>>>
>>>        However, when the WTP provides link security, a new 
>> vulnerability
>>>     will
>>>        exist when the following conditions are true:
>>>
>>>         o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID
>>>             (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already 
>>> exists
>>>
>>>             o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK
>>>
>>>        Under these circumstances, the receive sequence 
>> counter (KeyRSC)
>>>        associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the 
>> AC anchors the
>>>        4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of 
>> the KeyRSC is not
>>>        known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.
>>>        The client will update its Key RSC value to the 
>> current valid KeyRSC
>>>        upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, 
>> but prior to
>>>     this,
>>>        previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was 
>> secured with the
>>>     existing
>>>        GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this 
>> traffic as
>>>     valid.
>>>
>>>        Typically, busy networks will produce numerous 
>> multicast or broadcast
>>>        frames per second, so the window of opportunity with 
>> respect to such
>>>        replay is expected to be very small. In most 
>> conditions, it is
>>>     expected that
>>>        replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP.
>>>
>>>        The only way to completely close this window is to 
>> provide the
>>>        exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any
>>>        other approach simply narrows the window to varying 
>> degrees. Given
>>>        the low relative threat level this presents, the additional
>>>     complexity
>>>        introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is 
>> not warranted.
>>>     That
>>>        is, this specification provides for a calculated 
>> risk in this regard.
>>>     ==>
>>>     However, WTP implementations MAY provide the exact KeyRSC value
>>>     before forwarding message 3 of the 4-way handshake.
>>>
>>>     --behcet
>>>
>>>     
>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>     To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, 
>> please visit:
>>>     http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
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Hi Cheng,

I think we have to make the security disclaimer no matter what, as there 
is a small window of opportunity unless you precisely synchronize the 
KeyRSC (which I think most agree is more complex than the resulting 
exposure warrants).

As for setting the value, we could be rigid and require it to be set to 
zero, or we could be a little less precise, and leave some discretion 
here. The only requirement for interoperability is that the WTP *accept* 
any value, regardless of what its current KeyRSC value is (which is also 
true if we require "0"). Of course, if the AC sends the wrong value 
(i.e. a value greater than the actual KeyRSC), this will be a problem 
for the STA, and I think all would agree that this particular 
implementation is broken.

On the other hand, strictly requiring the AC to send zero precludes a 
vendor of a "compliant" implementation from implementing some heuristic 
or workaround which narrows the window. Frankly, I'm not certain that 
any such workaround exists (short of some yet to be defined WTP/AC 
exchange), but I guess the question is, should we firmly slam this door 
shut, or should we specify only the necessary and sufficient text for 
interoperability?

I think leaving the value unspecified might be a better approach.

Scott

Cheng Hong wrote:
> Hi Charles and all,
> 
> To specify a "default" value means specifying it to "zero". Otherwise,
> it would not work. Say, the "default" value is set to 100, but the
> actual sequence number used could be 50 at the moment. It means the STA
> is not able to receive the Broadcast/Multicast packets for the next 50
> seqeunce count.
> 
> So, I think we need some clarification on what is the decision here. Is
> the decision now:
> - No change to the protocol design except some security disclaimers.
> And, specify a default value (0) to be used by the AC always.
> 
> Or, We also allow:
> - The WTP and AC can choose to implement info exchange methods (a simple
> element to be specified in the draft). However, if some AC choose not to
> support such mechanism, it will have to set the KeyRSC to zero. And a
> security disclaimer to state what is the effect of setting the KeyRSC to
> zero.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Cheng Hong
> 
> 
>  
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] 
>> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 9:24 AM
>> To: Dorothy Stanley
>> Cc: capwap
>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
>> Considerations
>>
>> We'd definitely need to specify a value for keyRSC in the 
>> appropriate section.  That would be in addition to the 
>> changes to the security considerations.  Without specifying a 
>> default value, we could have interoperability issues between 
>> WTPs and ACs.
>>
>> --
>> t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
>>
>> Dorothy Stanley wrote:
>>> Behcet,
>>>
>>> My understanding of Scott's recommendations is that  text be added 
>>> into the security considerations section.
>>> - no additional CAPWAP protocol exchange between the WTP and AC
>>> - no specification of setting the keyRSC value to 0.
>>>
>>> Without some specification in the protocol, how can the WTP provide 
>>> the KeyRSC info to the AC in a way that the AC is sure to 
>> understand?
>>> The most we can say
>>> with respect to the standard is that an AC implementation 
>> is free to 
>>> comes up with its own algorithm to set the keyRSC value.
>>>
>>> Dorothy
>>>
>>> On 10/5/06, *Behcet Sarikaya* <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com 
>>> <mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     I agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as a 
>> possibility.
>>>     As far as interoperability is concerned, value 0 is 
>> interoperable
>>>     but not correct. If we allow implementations to snif in 
>> and modify
>>>     then any value should be acceptable which may be a concern for
>>>     interoperability?
>>>
>>>     ----- Original Message ----
>>>     From: Scott G. Kelly < s.kelly@ix.netcom.com
>>>     <mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>>
>>>     To: capwap <capwap@frascone.com <mailto:capwap@frascone.com>>
>>>     Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM
>>>     Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
>>> Considerations
>>>
>>>     Following up once again - after careful review, I still 
>> agree with
>>>     Charles, and here's some suggested text for the 
>> security considerations:
>>>     13.5.  IEEE 802.11 Security
>>>
>>>         When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP
>>>     encryption, the
>>>        CAPWAP protocol does not add any new 
>> vulnerabilities.  Derived
>>>        session keys between the STA and WTP can be 
>> compromised, resulting in
>>>        many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD 
>> discourage the use
>>>        of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic
>>>     solutions
>>>        such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.
>>>
>>>        When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol
>>>        may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on 
>> whether the link
>>>     security
>>>       (packet encryption and integrity verification) is 
>> provided by the
>>>     WTP or the AC.
>>>        When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new
>>>     security
>>>        concerns are introduced.
>>>
>>>        However, when the WTP provides link security, a new 
>> vulnerability
>>>     will
>>>        exist when the following conditions are true:
>>>
>>>         o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID
>>>             (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already 
>>> exists
>>>
>>>             o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK
>>>
>>>        Under these circumstances, the receive sequence 
>> counter (KeyRSC)
>>>        associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the 
>> AC anchors the
>>>        4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of 
>> the KeyRSC is not
>>>        known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.
>>>        The client will update its Key RSC value to the 
>> current valid KeyRSC
>>>        upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, 
>> but prior to
>>>     this,
>>>        previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was 
>> secured with the
>>>     existing
>>>        GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this 
>> traffic as
>>>     valid.
>>>
>>>        Typically, busy networks will produce numerous 
>> multicast or broadcast
>>>        frames per second, so the window of opportunity with 
>> respect to such
>>>        replay is expected to be very small. In most 
>> conditions, it is
>>>     expected that
>>>        replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP.
>>>
>>>        The only way to completely close this window is to 
>> provide the
>>>        exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any
>>>        other approach simply narrows the window to varying 
>> degrees. Given
>>>        the low relative threat level this presents, the additional
>>>     complexity
>>>        introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is 
>> not warranted.
>>>     That
>>>        is, this specification provides for a calculated 
>> risk in this regard.
>>>     ==>
>>>     However, WTP implementations MAY provide the exact KeyRSC value
>>>     before forwarding message 3 of the 4-way handshake.
>>>
>>>     --behcet
>>>
>>>     
>> _________________________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal  
implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to the  
protocol portion of the document (as well as the security  
considerations) to explain how this is handled.  How about something  
like:

The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the 4-way  
802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal RSC  
value to use.  Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC value  
are outside the scope of this specification.

I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope that  
implementors figure this out.

Margaret

---

On Oct 6, 2006, at 9:28 AM, Scott G Kelly wrote:

> Hi Cheng,
>
> I think we have to make the security disclaimer no matter what, as  
> there
> is a small window of opportunity unless you precisely synchronize the
> KeyRSC (which I think most agree is more complex than the resulting
> exposure warrants).
>
> As for setting the value, we could be rigid and require it to be  
> set to
> zero, or we could be a little less precise, and leave some discretion
> here. The only requirement for interoperability is that the WTP  
> *accept*
> any value, regardless of what its current KeyRSC value is (which is  
> also
> true if we require "0"). Of course, if the AC sends the wrong value
> (i.e. a value greater than the actual KeyRSC), this will be a problem
> for the STA, and I think all would agree that this particular
> implementation is broken.
>
> On the other hand, strictly requiring the AC to send zero precludes a
> vendor of a "compliant" implementation from implementing some  
> heuristic
> or workaround which narrows the window. Frankly, I'm not certain that
> any such workaround exists (short of some yet to be defined WTP/AC
> exchange), but I guess the question is, should we firmly slam this  
> door
> shut, or should we specify only the necessary and sufficient text for
> interoperability?
>
> I think leaving the value unspecified might be a better approach.
>
> Scott
>
> Cheng Hong wrote:
>> Hi Charles and all,
>>
>> To specify a "default" value means specifying it to "zero".  
>> Otherwise,
>> it would not work. Say, the "default" value is set to 100, but the
>> actual sequence number used could be 50 at the moment. It means  
>> the STA
>> is not able to receive the Broadcast/Multicast packets for the  
>> next 50
>> seqeunce count.
>>
>> So, I think we need some clarification on what is the decision  
>> here. Is
>> the decision now:
>> - No change to the protocol design except some security disclaimers.
>> And, specify a default value (0) to be used by the AC always.
>>
>> Or, We also allow:
>> - The WTP and AC can choose to implement info exchange methods (a  
>> simple
>> element to be specified in the draft). However, if some AC choose  
>> not to
>> support such mechanism, it will have to set the KeyRSC to zero. And a
>> security disclaimer to state what is the effect of setting the  
>> KeyRSC to
>> zero.
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> Cheng Hong
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu]
>>> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 9:24 AM
>>> To: Dorothy Stanley
>>> Cc: capwap
>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
>>> Considerations
>>>
>>> We'd definitely need to specify a value for keyRSC in the
>>> appropriate section.  That would be in addition to the
>>> changes to the security considerations.  Without specifying a
>>> default value, we could have interoperability issues between
>>> WTPs and ACs.
>>>
>>> --
>>> t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
>>>
>>> Dorothy Stanley wrote:
>>>> Behcet,
>>>>
>>>> My understanding of Scott's recommendations is that  text be added
>>>> into the security considerations section.
>>>> - no additional CAPWAP protocol exchange between the WTP and AC
>>>> - no specification of setting the keyRSC value to 0.
>>>>
>>>> Without some specification in the protocol, how can the WTP provide
>>>> the KeyRSC info to the AC in a way that the AC is sure to
>>> understand?
>>>> The most we can say
>>>> with respect to the standard is that an AC implementation
>>> is free to
>>>> comes up with its own algorithm to set the keyRSC value.
>>>>
>>>> Dorothy
>>>>
>>>> On 10/5/06, *Behcet Sarikaya* <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com
>>>> <mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     I agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as a
>>> possibility.
>>>>     As far as interoperability is concerned, value 0 is
>>> interoperable
>>>>     but not correct. If we allow implementations to snif in
>>> and modify
>>>>     then any value should be acceptable which may be a concern for
>>>>     interoperability?
>>>>
>>>>     ----- Original Message ----
>>>>     From: Scott G. Kelly < s.kelly@ix.netcom.com
>>>>     <mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>>
>>>>     To: capwap <capwap@frascone.com <mailto:capwap@frascone.com>>
>>>>     Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM
>>>>     Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
>>>> Considerations
>>>>
>>>>     Following up once again - after careful review, I still
>>> agree with
>>>>     Charles, and here's some suggested text for the
>>> security considerations:
>>>>     13.5.  IEEE 802.11 Security
>>>>
>>>>         When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP
>>>>     encryption, the
>>>>        CAPWAP protocol does not add any new
>>> vulnerabilities.  Derived
>>>>        session keys between the STA and WTP can be
>>> compromised, resulting in
>>>>        many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD
>>> discourage the use
>>>>        of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic
>>>>     solutions
>>>>        such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.
>>>>
>>>>        When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol
>>>>        may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on
>>> whether the link
>>>>     security
>>>>       (packet encryption and integrity verification) is
>>> provided by the
>>>>     WTP or the AC.
>>>>        When the link security function is provided by the AC, no  
>>>> new
>>>>     security
>>>>        concerns are introduced.
>>>>
>>>>        However, when the WTP provides link security, a new
>>> vulnerability
>>>>     will
>>>>        exist when the following conditions are true:
>>>>
>>>>         o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID
>>>>             (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already
>>>> exists
>>>>
>>>>             o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK
>>>>
>>>>        Under these circumstances, the receive sequence
>>> counter (KeyRSC)
>>>>        associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the
>>> AC anchors the
>>>>        4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of
>>> the KeyRSC is not
>>>>        known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.
>>>>        The client will update its Key RSC value to the
>>> current valid KeyRSC
>>>>        upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message,
>>> but prior to
>>>>     this,
>>>>        previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was
>>> secured with the
>>>>     existing
>>>>        GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this
>>> traffic as
>>>>     valid.
>>>>
>>>>        Typically, busy networks will produce numerous
>>> multicast or broadcast
>>>>        frames per second, so the window of opportunity with
>>> respect to such
>>>>        replay is expected to be very small. In most
>>> conditions, it is
>>>>     expected that
>>>>        replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP.
>>>>
>>>>        The only way to completely close this window is to
>>> provide the
>>>>        exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any
>>>>        other approach simply narrows the window to varying
>>> degrees. Given
>>>>        the low relative threat level this presents, the additional
>>>>     complexity
>>>>        introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is
>>> not warranted.
>>>>     That
>>>>        is, this specification provides for a calculated
>>> risk in this regard.
>>>>     ==>
>>>>     However, WTP implementations MAY provide the exact KeyRSC value
>>>>     before forwarding message 3 of the 4-way handshake.
>>>>
>>>>     --behcet
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>     To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options,
>>> please visit:
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>> --
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>>>>
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Richard,

Notes inline.

Thanks,

Dorothy

On 10/5/06, young <young@huawei-3com.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, Dorothy:
> Thanks for your proposed resolutions.

You're welcome.

> In your Proposed Resolution, you mentioned that " While there may be
> common
> elements, it's not clear that the
> CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying
> the
> common elements
> across wireless systems."
> If it is not clear, I suggest that WG or mailing list had better take time
> to make it clear.
> Otherwise, how to decide what info should put in the base part if base
> part
> scope is not clear?
> I thought a clear and common understanding of base part's rule and scope
> is
> very important for
> base part separation from wireless specific binding.


I completely agree that the WG needs to clarify on the base vs binding
division of labor.
The current draft, with the exception (largely) of  the WTP Radio
information element, puts the
wireless-technology specific elements in the binding rather than the base
protocol. This is
the approach I followed in developing the proposed resolutions.
Most of the CAPWAP level message elements are used to establish and manage
the
session between the AC and WTP.  Some message elements, for example
 the WTP radio statistics and Decryption Error Report are borderline and
could arguably
move to the binding; but they are not technology specific - e.g. 802.11 vs
802.16.


I give my comment for the proposed resolutions to issue 204.
> 1) 4.4.38.  WTP Radio Information
> Sorry for I don't make issue clear in my comment.
> I suggest that WTP Radio Information could be kept in the current section
> 4.4.
> While 802.11a/b/g/n these kinds info could be defined by 802.11binding.
> We could add a Wireless binding identifier in the WTP Radio Information.
> By this way, we could identify any Wireless binding's radio type
> definition.
> The Wireless binding identifier could be probably eventually managed by
> IANA.
> No matter what method will by used for Wireless binding identifier, it is
> a
> key
> Point to help base protocol to separate any wireless binding.
> I thought that Wireless binding identifier method will be a common issue.


I considered several options on this one.
(a) Have both a CAPWAP
base element that included the "first level" radio information: 802.11,
802.15,
802.16, 802.22, EPCGlobal, etc, AND specific binding elements that
specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc. Thus as the first
levels churn internally, the base spec isn't impacted. But if the detailed
level
is provided, is the higher level even needed?

(b) Have  only binding-specific  elements that
specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc.
The binding will need to specify that the element must be included in the
control messages that the previous CAPWAP level element was in.

(c) keeping the definition as is. Didn't do this, since the change
did make the CAPWAP base spec even more wireless-technology agnostic.

The WTP Radio information message element includes only 2 fields, the
radio type and the radio information. If we want radio specific info in the
base spec, then we can leave it there, and add the 802.11,15,16,etc values -
and
require that the capwap base spec change as new values are added, or we can
move the radio-type info to the binding, and then as the wireless technology
evolves, only the binding doc has to change.

2) 11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power
> I suggest we could define a "WTP Radio configuration" TLV.
> By using wireless binding identifier, there will be no conflict with
> Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table.
> Channel also could be put here.
> As AC will configure AP's RF parameter (AC to AP), and AP will report its
> current
> Configuration to AC, the TLV will be carried in the configuration message
> in
> bi-direction.
> More TLV could be added into the TLV if it is required.
>
> |---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|------
> ---|---------|
> | Radio ID| country code| wireless binding identifier | Max Tx Power |Tx
> Power | Channel  |
>
> |---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|------
> -- |----------|
> As Tx power these kind info will not be carried in the discovery phase, I
> suggest that "WTP Radio configuration"
> is required instead of extenuation of " WTP Radio Information".


Ok, so the proposal is to have a new base-spec-level message element,
that incorporates a binding-defined-identifier for Radio Configuration.
This would require the TX power fields to have the same units across
wireless types. This level of configuration is currenly in the binding and
my preference would be to leave it there.

Regards
> Richard (shiyang)
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Dorothy Stanley (dstanley1389gmail.com)
> Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:08:21 -0700 (PDT)
> All,
>
> Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components are
> listed below.
>
> Comments please.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dorothy
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------------------
> 1) 4.4.38.  WTP Radio Information
> Comment: As the section should be work for any wireless implement, I
> suggest
> the
> following value should be moved to 802.11 binding. The value should be
> defined by wireless
> technology binding.
>       1 - 802.11b:  An IEEE 802.11b radio.
>       2 - 802.11a:  An IEEE 802.11a radio.
>       4 -
> 802.11g:  An IEEE 802.11g radio.
>       8 - 802.11n:  An IEEE 802.11n radio.
> Proposed Resolution: Move the "need to know" the 802.11 technology
> specific
> radio types to the 802.11 binding, modifying the WTP Radio Information
> element
> as follows:
> IEEE 802.11 Radio Information
>    The IEEE 802.11 radio information message element is used to
> communicate
> the
>    radio information for each IEEE 802.11 radio on the WTP.  The Discovery
> Request message MUST
>    include one such message element per radio in the WTP.  The Radio-Type
> field is used by the
>    AC to determine which 802.11 technology specific binding is to be used
> with the WTP.
>    The value contains two fields, as shown.
>
>       0                   1                   2                   3
>       0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>
>      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>      |   Radio ID    |           Radio Type                          |
>      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
>      | Radio Type    |
>      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
>    Type:  38 for WTP Radio Information
>    Length:  5
>    Radio ID:  The Radio Identifier, which typically refers to an
>       interface index on the WTP
>    Radio Type:  The type of IEEE 802.11 radio present.
>       The following values are supported:
>       1 - 802.11b:  An IEEE 802.11b radio.
>       2 - 802.11a:  An IEEE 802.11a radio.
>       4 -
> 802.11g:  An IEEE 802.11g radio.
>       8 - 802.11n:  An IEEE 802.11n radio.
>       0xOF - 802.11b, 802.11a, 802.11g and 802.11n:  The 4 radio types
>          indicated are supported in the WTP.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
> 2) 11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power
> Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, as channel and Tx
> power are
> common parameters for RF management.
> Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter
>
> that TX power level is a common parameter for RF management; however the
> IEEE 802.11 TX Power field values are defined as being the values
> defined in IEEE 802.11Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table, and thus are not
> extensible to other bindings. Expect that each binding will define
> values relative to its definitions.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 3)  Add "WTP radio channel"
> Comment: As per 2), we could define a TLV to report current channel (AP to
> AC) or to
> configure channel (AC to AP).
> Now,. 11.9.12.  IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control and 11.9.5.  IEEE 802.11 Direct
> Sequence Control has channel configuration information.
> But I think that a specific TLV for it is better. By this way, 4.4 will
> provide
> more common parameter for any wireless technology.
>
>      0                   1                   2                   3
>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
>        |    Radio ID   |    Reserved   |        Current Channel       |
>
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
> The commenter suggests the following:
> 3) Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4
> The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind
> parameter
> are common for any kind wireless binding.
> I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part.
> Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power
> these kind Info should not be sent
> during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio
> configuration" is better.
> If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message
> should be suggested by protocol.
> The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type,
> Tx power, Channel, country code and so on.
> For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
> The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this
> way,
> AC could configure WTP's RF parameter
> and know current configuration on the WTP radio.
> If this way, current "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12. IEEE
> 802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5.
> IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE
> 802.11 related element.
> Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. While there may be common
> elements, it's not clear that the
> CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying
> the
> common elements
> across wireless systems.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> 4) 11.9.24.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Fail Alarm Indications
>
> Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, it could be a
> common
> event for
> any wireless technology.
> Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commmenter
> that a fail alarm indication could be a common event for
> any wireless technology. Each radio technology may want to
> have additional information reported with the event however. Not
> sure there is sufficient benefit shown for a common defintiion at this
> point.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------
>
> 5) 11.9.1.  IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN
> How about we rename "WLAN" as wireless service? By this way, we could
> achieve
> abstract while make it work for most wireless technology.
> If it is ok, we could define "add wireless service, delete wireless
> service,
>
> update wireless service" in the section
> 4.4.
> Any wireless technology could add its specific parameter in the binding
> section.
>
> The commenter suggests a solution:
> 1) Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless service",
> and put it in the section 4.4
> The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract than "WLAN".
> Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep
> Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode
> these kinds common element (more element maybe put here).
> While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding
> identifier.
> The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using
> ( Probably eventually managed by IANA)
> Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft.
> The IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN message element is 802.11 specific and used
> together with several other message elements to define a WLAN service.
> The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the
> CAPWAP protocol to add a generic wireless service. It's not clear that
> there are enough additional elements common to multiple wireless
> services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> 6) 11.9.22.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service
>
> As per 5), I think we could define "WTP Quality of Service"in the section
> 4.4. Radio ID, Tag Packets and Queue Depth could be defined in the "WTP
> Quality of
> Service".
>
> While CWMin and so on could be defined in the IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of
> Service.
> The commenter suggests the following solution:
> 2) Rename "11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as "WTP Quality of
> Service"
> Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the
> "WTP
> Quality of Service".
> For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
> For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be
> great.
> Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft.
> The IEEE 802.11 WTP QOS message element is 802.11 specific and is needed
> to convey the CWMin , CWMax and other very specific 802.11 data.
> The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the
> CAPWAP protocol to include a "generic QOS" message element. It's not clear
> that
> there are enough elements common to multiple wireless
> services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time.
> There is at least 1 - the Tag packets type, which each binding can inlcude
> if
> desired.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------------------
> 7. Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as "WTP Statistics" in the section
> 4.4
>
> Comment: Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I
> think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics"
> could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like "RTS Success
> Count"
> and so on.
> For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
> Proposed resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter
> that many of the statistics are common across wireless technologies.
> However the IEEE 802.11 Statistics values are defined as being the values
> defined in various IEEE 802.11 MIB variables and thus are not extensible
> to
> other bindings. Expect that each binding will define values relative to
> its
> definitions.
>
> On 9/28/06, young <young [at] huawei-3com.com> wrote:
> Hi Pat and all,
> I used to raise issue #204, and here intend to give solution.
> 1) Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless service",
> and put it in the section 4.4
> The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract than "WLAN".
> Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep
> Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode
> these kinds common element (more element maybe put here).
> While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding
> identifier.
> The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using
> ( Probably eventually managed by IANA)
> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> | Radio ID | WLAN ID | MAC Mode | Tunnel
> Mode +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> | Wireless binding identifier |
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> | Type | Length |
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> | Value...
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> It is similar for "IEEE 802.11 deletes WLAN" and "IEEE 802.11 Update
> WLAN".
>
> 2) Rename "11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as "WTP Quality of
> Service"
> Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the
> "WTP
> Quality of Service".
> For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
> For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be
> great.
>
> 3) Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4
> The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind
> parameter
> are common for any kind wireless binding.
> I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part.
> Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power
> these kind Info should not be sent
> during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio
> configuration" is better.
> If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message
> should be suggested by protocol.
> The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type,
> Tx power, Channel, country code and so on.
> For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
> The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this
> way,
> AC could configure WTP's RF parameter
> and know current configuration on the WTP radio.
> If this way, current "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12. IEEE
> 802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5.
> IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE
> 802.11 related element.
> 4) Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as "WTP Statistics" in the section
> 4.4
> Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I think most
> the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics"
> could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like "RTS Success
> Count"
> and so on.
> For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
>
> Any way, I thought many TLV will change their location as new CAPWAP will
> be
> divided into two parts.
>
> Cheers
>
> Richard (Shiyang)
>
>
>
>

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Richard, <br>
<br>
Notes inline. <br>
<br>
Thanks, <br>
<br>
Dorothy<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/5/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">young</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:young@huawei-3com.com">young@huawei-3com.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Hi, Dorothy:<br>Thanks for your proposed resolutions.&nbsp;</blockquote>You're welcome.<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">In your Proposed Resolution, you mentioned that &quot; While there may be common
<br>elements, it's not clear that the<br>CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying the<br>common elements<br>across wireless systems.&quot;<br>If it is not clear, I suggest that WG or mailing list had better take time
<br>to make it clear.<br>Otherwise, how to decide what info should put in the base part if base part<br>scope is not clear?<br>I thought a clear and common understanding of base part's rule and scope is<br>very important for
<br>base part separation from wireless specific binding.</blockquote><div><br>
I completely agree that the WG needs to clarify on the base vs binding<br>
division of labor.<br>
The current draft, with the exception (largely) of&nbsp; the WTP Radio information element, puts the <br>
wireless-technology specific elements in the binding rather than the base protocol. This is<br>
the approach I followed in developing the proposed resolutions. <br>
Most of the CAPWAP level message elements are used to establish and manage the<br>
session between the AC and WTP.&nbsp; Some message elements, for example<br>
&nbsp;the WTP radio statistics and Decryption Error Report are borderline and could arguably<br>
move to the binding; but they are not technology specific - e.g. 802.11 vs 802.16.<br>
<br>
</div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">I give my comment for the proposed resolutions to issue 204.<br>1) 4.4.38.&nbsp;&nbsp;WTP Radio Information
<br>Sorry for I don't make issue clear in my comment.<br>I suggest that WTP Radio Information could be kept in the current section<br>4.4.<br>While 802.11a/b/g/n these kinds info could be defined by 802.11binding.<br>We could add a Wireless binding identifier in the WTP Radio Information.
<br>By this way, we could identify any Wireless binding's radio type definition.<br>The Wireless binding identifier could be probably eventually managed by<br>IANA.<br>No matter what method will by used for Wireless binding identifier, it is a
<br>key<br>Point to help base protocol to separate any wireless binding.<br>I thought that Wireless binding identifier method will be a common issue.</blockquote><div><br>
I considered several options on this one. <br>
(a) Have both a CAPWAP<br>
base element that included the &quot;first level&quot; radio information: 802.11, 802.15,<br>
802.16, 802.22, EPCGlobal, etc, AND specific binding elements that<br>
specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc. Thus as the first<br>
levels churn internally, the base spec isn't impacted. But if the detailed level<br>
is provided, is the higher level even needed?<br>
<br>
(b) Have&nbsp; only binding-specific&nbsp; elements that<br>

specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc. <br>
The binding will need to specify that the element must be included in the<br>
control messages that the previous CAPWAP level element was in.<br>
<br>
(c) keeping the definition as is. Didn't do this, since the change<br>
did make the CAPWAP base spec even more wireless-technology agnostic.<br>
<br>
The WTP Radio information message element includes only 2 fields, the<br>
radio type and the radio information. If we want radio specific info in the<br>
base spec, then we can leave it there, and add the 802.11,15,16,etc values - and<br>
require that the capwap base spec change as new values are added, or we can<br>
move the radio-type info to the binding, and then as the wireless technology<br>
evolves, only the binding doc has to change.&nbsp; <br>
</div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">2) 11.9.18.&nbsp;&nbsp;IEEE 802.11 Tx Power<br>I suggest we could define a "WTP Radio configuration" TLV.
<br>By using wireless binding identifier, there will be no conflict with<br>Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table.<br>Channel also could be put here.<br>As AC will configure AP's RF parameter (AC to AP), and AP will report its<br>
current<br>Configuration to AC, the TLV will be carried in the configuration message in<br>bi-direction.<br>More TLV could be added into the TLV if it is required.<br>|---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|------
<br>---|---------|<br>| Radio ID| country code| wireless binding identifier | Max Tx Power |Tx<br>Power | Channel&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br>|---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|------<br>-- |----------|<br>As Tx power these kind info will not be carried in the discovery phase, I
<br>suggest that "WTP Radio configuration"<br>is required instead of extenuation of &quot; WTP Radio Information&quot;.</blockquote><div><br>
Ok, so the proposal is to have a new base-spec-level message element,<br>
that incorporates a binding-defined-identifier for Radio Configuration.<br>
This would require the TX power fields to have the same units across<br>
wireless types. This level of configuration is currenly in the binding and<br>
my preference would be to leave it there. <br>
</div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Regards<br>Richard (shiyang)<br><br><br><br><br><br>From: Dorothy Stanley (<a href="http://dstanley1389gmail.com">
dstanley1389gmail.com</a>)<br>Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:08:21 -0700 (PDT)<br>All,<br><br>Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components are<br>listed below.<br><br>Comments please.<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>Dorothy<br><br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>---------------------------------------------<br>1) 4.4.38.&nbsp;&nbsp;WTP Radio Information<br>Comment: As the section should be work for any wireless implement, I suggest
<br>the<br>following value should be moved to 802.11 binding. The value should be<br>defined by wireless<br>technology binding.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1 - 802.11b:&nbsp;&nbsp;An IEEE 802.11b radio.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2 - 802.11a:&nbsp;&nbsp;An IEEE 802.11a radio.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;4 -<br>802.11g:&nbsp;&nbsp;An IEEE 802.11g radio.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;8 - 802.11n:&nbsp;&nbsp;An IEEE 802.11n radio.<br>Proposed Resolution: Move the &quot;need to know&quot; the 802.11 technology specific<br>radio types to the 802.11 binding, modifying the WTP Radio Information
<br>element<br>as follows:<br>IEEE 802.11 Radio Information<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; The IEEE 802.11 radio information message element is used to communicate<br>the<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; radio information for each IEEE 802.11 radio on the WTP.&nbsp;&nbsp;The Discovery
<br>Request message MUST<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; include one such message element per radio in the WTP.&nbsp;&nbsp;The Radio-Type<br>field is used by the<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; AC to determine which 802.11 technology specific binding is to be used<br>with the WTP.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; The value contains two fields, as shown.<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
3<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
|&nbsp;&nbsp; Radio
ID&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Radio
Type&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Radio Type&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Type:&nbsp;&nbsp;38 for WTP Radio Information<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Length:&nbsp;&nbsp;5
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Radio ID:&nbsp;&nbsp;The Radio Identifier, which typically refers to an<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;interface index on the WTP<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Radio Type:&nbsp;&nbsp;The type of IEEE 802.11 radio present.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The following values are supported:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1 - 
802.11b:&nbsp;&nbsp;An IEEE 802.11b radio.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2 - 802.11a:&nbsp;&nbsp;An IEEE 802.11a radio.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;4 -<br>802.11g:&nbsp;&nbsp;An IEEE 802.11g radio.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;8 - 802.11n:&nbsp;&nbsp;An IEEE 802.11n radio.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0xOF - 802.11b, 802.11a, 802.11g and 802.11n
:&nbsp;&nbsp;The 4 radio types<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; indicated are supported in the WTP.<br><br>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>---------------<br>2) 11.9.18.&nbsp;&nbsp;IEEE 802.11 Tx Power<br>Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 
4.4, as channel and Tx<br>power are<br>common parameters for RF management.<br>Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter<br><br>that TX power level is a common parameter for RF management; however the
<br>IEEE 802.11 TX Power field values are defined as being the values<br>defined in IEEE 802.11Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table, and thus are not<br>extensible to other bindings. Expect that each binding will define<br>values relative to its definitions.
<br>---------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>3)&nbsp;&nbsp;Add &quot;WTP radio channel&quot;<br>Comment: As per 2), we could define a TLV to report current channel (AP to<br>AC) or to<br>configure channel (AC to AP).
<br>Now,. 11.9.12.&nbsp;&nbsp;IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control and 11.9.5.&nbsp;&nbsp;IEEE 802.11 Direct<br>Sequence Control has channel configuration information.<br>But I think that a specific TLV for it is better. By this way, 4.4 will<br>provide
<br>more common parameter for any wireless technology.<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
3<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Radio ID&nbsp;&nbsp;
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Reserved&nbsp;&nbsp;
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Current
Channel&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<br><br>The commenter suggests the following:<br>3) Add &quot;WTP RF Radio configuration&quot; in the section 4.4<br>The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind parameter
<br>are common for any kind wireless binding.<br>I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part.<br>Although the protocol already has &quot;WTP Radio Information&quot;, while Tx power<br>these kind Info should not be sent
<br> during discovery and join phase. So the separated &quot;WTP RF Radio<br>configuration&quot; is better.<br> If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message<br>should be suggested by protocol.
<br>The TLV of &quot;WTP RF Radio configuration&quot; will include radio ID, radio type,<br>Tx power, Channel, country code and so on.<br>For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.<br>The &quot;WTP RF Radio configuration&quot; could be sent by bi-direction, by this way,
<br>AC could configure WTP's RF parameter<br>and know current configuration on the WTP radio.<br>If this way, current &quot;11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power&quot;, &quot;11.9.12. IEEE<br>802.11 OFDM Control &quot;and &quot;11.9.5
.<br>IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control&quot; and so on will merely keep the IEEE<br>802.11 related element.<br>Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. While there may be common<br>elements, it's not clear that the<br>
CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying the<br>common elements<br>across wireless systems.<br><br>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>--------<br>
4) 11.9.24.&nbsp;&nbsp;IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Fail Alarm Indications<br><br>Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, it could be a common<br>event for<br>any wireless technology.<br> Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commmenter
<br>that a fail alarm indication could be a common event for<br>any wireless technology. Each radio technology may want to<br>have additional information reported with the event however. Not<br>sure there is sufficient benefit shown for a common defintiion at this
<br>point.<br>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>-----------<br><br>5) 11.9.1.&nbsp;&nbsp;IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN<br>How about we rename &quot;WLAN&quot; as wireless service? By this way, we could
<br>achieve<br>abstract while make it work for most wireless technology.<br>If it is ok, we could define &quot;add wireless service, delete wireless service,<br><br>update wireless service&quot; in the section<br>4.4.<br>
Any wireless technology could add its specific parameter in the binding<br>section.<br><br>The commenter suggests a solution:<br>1) Redefine 11.9.1 &quot;IEEE 802.11 add WLAN&quot; as &quot;Add wireless service&quot;,<br>
and put it in the section 4.4<br>The glossary &quot;wireless service&quot; will be more abstract than &quot;WLAN&quot;.<br>Refer to current &quot;IEEE 802.11 add WLAN&quot; format, we could keep<br>Radio ID, service ID (rename &quot;WLAN ID&quot; to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode
<br>these kinds common element (more element maybe put here).<br>While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding<br>identifier.<br>The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using
<br>( Probably eventually managed by IANA)<br>Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft.<br>The IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN message element is 802.11 specific and used<br>together with several other message elements to define a WLAN service.
<br>The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the<br>CAPWAP protocol to add a generic wireless service. It's not clear that<br>there are enough additional elements common to multiple wireless<br>services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time.
<br>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>----<br>6) 11.9.22.&nbsp;&nbsp;IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service<br><br>As per 5), I think we could define &quot;WTP Quality of Service&quot;in the section
<br>4.4. Radio ID, Tag Packets and Queue Depth could be defined in the &quot;WTP<br>Quality of<br>Service&quot;.<br><br>While CWMin and so on could be defined in the IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of<br>Service.<br>The commenter suggests the following solution:
<br>2) Rename &quot;11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service&quot; as &quot;WTP Quality of<br>Service&quot;<br>Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the &quot;WTP<br>Quality of Service&quot;.
<br>For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.<br>For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be<br>great.<br>Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft.<br>The IEEE 
802.11 WTP QOS message element is 802.11 specific and is needed<br>to convey the CWMin , CWMax and other very specific 802.11 data.<br>The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the<br>CAPWAP protocol to include a &quot;generic QOS&quot; message element. It's not clear
<br>that<br>there are enough elements common to multiple wireless<br>services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time.<br>There is at least 1 - the Tag packets type, which each binding can inlcude<br>
if<br>desired.<br>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>------------------------------------------------------<br>7. Redefine &quot;IEEE 802.11 Statistics&quot; as &quot;WTP Statistics&quot; in the section 
4.4<br><br>Comment: Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I<br>think most the element in the &quot;IEEE 802.11 Statistics&quot;<br>could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like &quot;RTS Success Count&quot;
<br>and so on.<br>For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.<br>Proposed resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter<br>that many of the statistics are common across wireless technologies.
<br>However the IEEE 802.11 Statistics values are defined as being the values<br>defined in various IEEE 802.11 MIB variables and thus are not extensible to<br>other bindings. Expect that each binding will define values relative to its
<br>definitions.<br><br>On 9/28/06, young &lt;young [at] <a href="http://huawei-3com.com">huawei-3com.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>Hi Pat and all,<br>I used to raise issue #204, and here intend to give solution.<br>1) Redefine 11.9.1
 &quot;IEEE 802.11 add WLAN&quot; as &quot;Add wireless service&quot;,<br>and put it in the section 4.4<br>The glossary &quot;wireless service&quot; will be more abstract than &quot;WLAN&quot;.<br>Refer to current &quot;IEEE 
802.11 add WLAN&quot; format, we could keep<br>Radio ID, service ID (rename &quot;WLAN ID&quot; to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode<br>these kinds common element (more element maybe put here).<br>While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding
<br>identifier.<br>The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using<br>( Probably eventually managed by IANA)<br> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1<br> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
<br> | Radio ID | WLAN ID | MAC Mode | Tunnel<br>Mode +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<br> | Wireless binding identifier |<br> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
<br> | Type | Length |<br> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<br> | Value...<br> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<br>It is similar for &quot;IEEE 802.11 deletes WLAN&quot; and &quot;IEEE 
802.11 Update WLAN&quot;.<br><br>2) Rename &quot;11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service&quot; as &quot;WTP Quality of<br>Service&quot;<br>Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the &quot;WTP
<br>Quality of Service&quot;.<br>For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.<br>For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be<br>great.<br><br>3) Add &quot;WTP RF Radio configuration&quot; in the section 
4.4<br>The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind parameter<br>are common for any kind wireless binding.<br>I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part.<br>Although the protocol already has &quot;WTP Radio Information&quot;, while Tx power
<br>these kind Info should not be sent<br> during discovery and join phase. So the separated &quot;WTP RF Radio<br>configuration&quot; is better.<br> If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message
<br>should be suggested by protocol.<br>The TLV of &quot;WTP RF Radio configuration&quot; will include radio ID, radio type,<br>Tx power, Channel, country code and so on.<br>For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
<br>The &quot;WTP RF Radio configuration&quot; could be sent by bi-direction, by this way,<br>AC could configure WTP's RF parameter<br>and know current configuration on the WTP radio.<br>If this way, current &quot;11.9.18
. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power&quot;, &quot;11.9.12. IEEE<br>802.11 OFDM Control &quot;and &quot;11.9.5.<br>IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control&quot; and so on will merely keep the IEEE<br>802.11 related element.<br>4) Redefine &quot;IEEE 
802.11 Statistics&quot; as &quot;WTP Statistics&quot; in the section<br>4.4<br>Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I think most<br>the element in the &quot;IEEE 802.11 Statistics&quot;<br>could be put on the section 
4.4, except the element like &quot;RTS Success Count&quot;<br>and so on.<br>For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.<br><br>Any way, I thought many TLV will change their location as new CAPWAP will be
<br>divided into two parts.<br><br>Cheers<br><br>Richard (Shiyang)<br><br><br><br></blockquote></div><br>

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Thread-Topic: Issue: WTP restarts after firmware download
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I believe that the expected resolution to Issue 200 (Trickle Firmware
Download) is to provide for download of firmware while the WTP is in the
RUN state and servicing wireless clients.  In this case, it may be
expected that the download of firmware to a large group of WTPs will not
conclude simultaneously.  In fact, one operational scenario is to
download new firmware versions to small groups of WTPs, only downloading
to new groups of WTPs after the prior group has completed.  It will be
desirable for the WTPs that have concluded the firmware download to
continue in the RUN state, until a RESET message is received.  This will
allow the orderly restart of the WTPs, so that all come up on the same
(or compatible) firmware version.

There are two problems that this introduces.  First, a WTP may
spontaneously restart, due to removal and reapplication of power or
other reasons outside of the control of the CAPWAP protocol.  Second,
the WTP may need to be restarted under the control of the CAPWAP
protocol, but continue using the earlier version of firmware.

I propose that we add a function to CAPWAP to control the version of
firmware that is used when a WTP restarts.  Some alternatives are the
following.

1. Require the WTP to maintain a nonvolatile "last boot version" that is
used as the source of the version of firmware for the next boot and add
a new configure message element to change this value.

2. Require that the WTP always restart on the last firmware version it
booted from and add a firmware version message element to the Reset
Request message to cause the WTP to restart using a different version.

I am sure there are other ways to accomplish this and welcome other
suggestions.

 -Bob

Bob O'Hara
Cisco Systems - WNBU

Phone:  +1 408 853 5513
Mobile: +1 408 218 4025
 
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All,

Based on overwhelming support for the Split CAPWAP draft, the Chairs are
declaring WG consensus on splitting the current CAPWAP protocol draft
into a base draft and an 802.11 binding draft.

The Editors will be submitting Version 00 of the 802.11 binding draft by
the October 16th IETF 67 draft deadline.

Thanks to everyone who submitting their opinions on this consensus call.

Best Regards,
Dorothy, Mani and Margaret

> _____________________________________________=20
> From: 	Gellert Dorothy (Nokia-ES/MtView) =20
> Sent:	Friday, September 15, 2006 11:19 AM
> To:	Capwap@frascone.com
> Cc:	ext Mani, Mahalingam (Mani); margaret@thingmagic.com; Kessens
> David (Nokia-NET/MtView); dromasca@avaya.com; Gellert Dorothy
> (Nokia-ES/MtView)
> Subject:	Consensus call on Split CAPWAP draft by 9/29.
>=20
> Hi All,
>=20
> The editors feel that there is WG support to split the current CAPWAP
> protocol draft into 2 drafts, a base draft and then a 802.11 binding
> draft.  The chairs would like to verify consensus with the WG that
> there is sufficient interest to split the draft before making this
> change.
>=20
> This issue has been discussed at the last CAPWAP WG meeting during
> IETF 66 in Montreal where there was no opposition to this request, and
> limited support on the list. =20
>=20
> The chairs would like establish consensus on the issue of splitting
> binding specific details from the base CAPWAP specification.=20
>=20
> Please submit your opinions on this topic to the WG list by Sept 29th,
> for a final consensus call on this feature.
>=20
> Best Regards,
> Dorothy, Mani and Margaret
>=20

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<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">All,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Based on overwhelming =
support for the Split CAPWAP draft, the Chairs are declaring WG =
consensus on splitting the current CAPWAP protocol draft into a base =
draft and an 802.11 binding draft.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The Editors will be =
submitting Version 00 of the 802.11 binding draft by the October 16th =
IETF 67 draft deadline.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Thanks to everyone =
who submitting their opinions on this consensus call.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Best Regards,</FONT>

<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Dorothy, Mani and =
Margaret</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Tahoma">_____________________________________________ </FONT>

<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Tahoma">From: &nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Tahoma">Gellert Dorothy (Nokia-ES/MtView)&nbsp; </FONT>

<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Tahoma">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Tahoma">Friday, September 15, 2006 11:19 AM</FONT>

<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Tahoma">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Tahoma">Capwap@frascone.com</FONT>

<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Tahoma">Cc:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Tahoma">ext Mani, Mahalingam (Mani); margaret@thingmagic.com; =
Kessens David (Nokia-NET/MtView); dromasca@avaya.com; Gellert Dorothy =
(Nokia-ES/MtView)</FONT></P>

<P><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Tahoma">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Tahoma">Consensus call on Split CAPWAP draft =
by 9/29.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hi All,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">The editors feel that there is WG =
support to split the current CAPWAP protocol draft into 2 drafts, a base =
draft and then a 802.11 binding draft.&nbsp; The chairs would like to =
verify consensus with the WG that there is sufficient interest to split =
the draft before making this change.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">This issue has been discussed at =
the last CAPWAP WG meeting during IETF 66 in Montreal where there was no =
opposition to this request, and limited support on the list.&nbsp; =
</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">The chairs would like establish =
consensus on the issue of splitting binding specific details from the =
base CAPWAP specification. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Please submit your opinions on =
this topic to the WG list by Sept 29th, for a final consensus call on =
this feature.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Best Regards,</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Dorothy, Mani and =
Margaret</FONT>
</P>

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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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I agree with Margaret


Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] 
> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 6:39 AM
> To: Scott G Kelly
> Cc: capwap; Cheng Hong
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> Considerations
> 
> 
> While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal 
> implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to 
> the protocol portion of the document (as well as the security
> considerations) to explain how this is handled.  How about something
> like:
> 
> The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the 
> 4-way 802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a 
> more optimal RSC value to use.  Mechanisms for determining a 
> more optimal RSC value are outside the scope of this specification.
> 
> I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope 
> that implementors figure this out.
> 
> Margaret
> 
> ---
> 
> On Oct 6, 2006, at 9:28 AM, Scott G Kelly wrote:
> 
> > Hi Cheng,
> >
> > I think we have to make the security disclaimer no matter what, as 
> > there is a small window of opportunity unless you precisely 
> > synchronize the KeyRSC (which I think most agree is more 
> complex than 
> > the resulting exposure warrants).
> >
> > As for setting the value, we could be rigid and require it 
> to be set 
> > to zero, or we could be a little less precise, and leave some 
> > discretion here. The only requirement for interoperability 
> is that the 
> > WTP
> > *accept*
> > any value, regardless of what its current KeyRSC value is (which is 
> > also true if we require "0"). Of course, if the AC sends the wrong 
> > value (i.e. a value greater than the actual KeyRSC), this will be a 
> > problem for the STA, and I think all would agree that this 
> particular 
> > implementation is broken.
> >
> > On the other hand, strictly requiring the AC to send zero 
> precludes a 
> > vendor of a "compliant" implementation from implementing some 
> > heuristic or workaround which narrows the window. Frankly, I'm not 
> > certain that any such workaround exists (short of some yet to be 
> > defined WTP/AC exchange), but I guess the question is, should we 
> > firmly slam this door shut, or should we specify only the necessary 
> > and sufficient text for interoperability?
> >
> > I think leaving the value unspecified might be a better approach.
> >
> > Scott
> >
> > Cheng Hong wrote:
> >> Hi Charles and all,
> >>
> >> To specify a "default" value means specifying it to "zero".  
> >> Otherwise,
> >> it would not work. Say, the "default" value is set to 100, but the 
> >> actual sequence number used could be 50 at the moment. It 
> means the 
> >> STA is not able to receive the Broadcast/Multicast packets for the 
> >> next 50 seqeunce count.
> >>
> >> So, I think we need some clarification on what is the 
> decision here. 
> >> Is the decision now:
> >> - No change to the protocol design except some security 
> disclaimers.
> >> And, specify a default value (0) to be used by the AC always.
> >>
> >> Or, We also allow:
> >> - The WTP and AC can choose to implement info exchange methods (a 
> >> simple element to be specified in the draft). However, if some AC 
> >> choose not to support such mechanism, it will have to set 
> the KeyRSC 
> >> to zero. And a security disclaimer to state what is the effect of 
> >> setting the KeyRSC to zero.
> >>
> >> cheers
> >>
> >> Cheng Hong
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu]
> >>> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 9:24 AM
> >>> To: Dorothy Stanley
> >>> Cc: capwap
> >>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> >>> Considerations
> >>>
> >>> We'd definitely need to specify a value for keyRSC in the 
> >>> appropriate section.  That would be in addition to the changes to 
> >>> the security considerations.  Without specifying a 
> default value, we 
> >>> could have interoperability issues between WTPs and ACs.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  
> www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
> >>>
> >>> Dorothy Stanley wrote:
> >>>> Behcet,
> >>>>
> >>>> My understanding of Scott's recommendations is that  
> text be added 
> >>>> into the security considerations section.
> >>>> - no additional CAPWAP protocol exchange between the WTP and AC
> >>>> - no specification of setting the keyRSC value to 0.
> >>>>
> >>>> Without some specification in the protocol, how can the 
> WTP provide 
> >>>> the KeyRSC info to the AC in a way that the AC is sure to
> >>> understand?
> >>>> The most we can say
> >>>> with respect to the standard is that an AC implementation
> >>> is free to
> >>>> comes up with its own algorithm to set the keyRSC value.
> >>>>
> >>>> Dorothy
> >>>>
> >>>> On 10/5/06, *Behcet Sarikaya* <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com 
> >>>> <mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>     I agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as a
> >>> possibility.
> >>>>     As far as interoperability is concerned, value 0 is
> >>> interoperable
> >>>>     but not correct. If we allow implementations to snif in
> >>> and modify
> >>>>     then any value should be acceptable which may be a 
> concern for
> >>>>     interoperability?
> >>>>
> >>>>     ----- Original Message ----
> >>>>     From: Scott G. Kelly < s.kelly@ix.netcom.com
> >>>>     <mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>>
> >>>>     To: capwap <capwap@frascone.com <mailto:capwap@frascone.com>>
> >>>>     Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM
> >>>>     Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> >>>> Considerations
> >>>>
> >>>>     Following up once again - after careful review, I still
> >>> agree with
> >>>>     Charles, and here's some suggested text for the
> >>> security considerations:
> >>>>     13.5.  IEEE 802.11 Security
> >>>>
> >>>>         When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP
> >>>>     encryption, the
> >>>>        CAPWAP protocol does not add any new
> >>> vulnerabilities.  Derived
> >>>>        session keys between the STA and WTP can be
> >>> compromised, resulting in
> >>>>        many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD
> >>> discourage the use
> >>>>        of WEP and encourage use of technically sound 
> cryptographic
> >>>>     solutions
> >>>>        such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.
> >>>>
> >>>>        When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the 
> CAPWAP protocol
> >>>>        may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on
> >>> whether the link
> >>>>     security
> >>>>       (packet encryption and integrity verification) is
> >>> provided by the
> >>>>     WTP or the AC.
> >>>>        When the link security function is provided by the AC, no 
> >>>> new
> >>>>     security
> >>>>        concerns are introduced.
> >>>>
> >>>>        However, when the WTP provides link security, a new
> >>> vulnerability
> >>>>     will
> >>>>        exist when the following conditions are true:
> >>>>
> >>>>         o the client is not the first to associate to 
> the WTP/ESSID
> >>>>             (i.e. other clients are associated), and a 
> GTK already 
> >>>> exists
> >>>>
> >>>>             o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK
> >>>>
> >>>>        Under these circumstances, the receive sequence
> >>> counter (KeyRSC)
> >>>>        associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the
> >>> AC anchors the
> >>>>        4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of
> >>> the KeyRSC is not
> >>>>        known when the AC constructs the message 
> containing the GTK.
> >>>>        The client will update its Key RSC value to the
> >>> current valid KeyRSC
> >>>>        upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message,
> >>> but prior to
> >>>>     this,
> >>>>        previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was
> >>> secured with the
> >>>>     existing
> >>>>        GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this
> >>> traffic as
> >>>>     valid.
> >>>>
> >>>>        Typically, busy networks will produce numerous
> >>> multicast or broadcast
> >>>>        frames per second, so the window of opportunity with
> >>> respect to such
> >>>>        replay is expected to be very small. In most
> >>> conditions, it is
> >>>>     expected that
> >>>>        replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP.
> >>>>
> >>>>        The only way to completely close this window is to
> >>> provide the
> >>>>        exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way 
> handshake; any
> >>>>        other approach simply narrows the window to varying
> >>> degrees. Given
> >>>>        the low relative threat level this presents, the 
> additional
> >>>>     complexity
> >>>>        introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is
> >>> not warranted.
> >>>>     That
> >>>>        is, this specification provides for a calculated
> >>> risk in this regard.
> >>>>     ==>
> >>>>     However, WTP implementations MAY provide the exact 
> KeyRSC value
> >>>>     before forwarding message 3 of the 4-way handshake.
> >>>>
> >>>>     --behcet
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> _________________________________________________________________
> >>>>     To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options,
> >>> please visit:
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> --
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> _________________________________________________________________
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I fully support the two port approach, and thank Margaret for clearly
describing the issue.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:mrw@lilacglade.org] 
> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:50 AM
> To: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion
> 
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> As many of you know, we have had a technical issue open in 
> the CAPWAP WG for some time that is commonly referred to as 
> the 2-port/mux issue.  This issue involves a technical choice between:
> 
> - A solution that uses two different well-known UDP ports for 
> separate data and control communications (the 2-port solution),
> 
> OR
> 
> - A solution that uses a single well-known UDP port for all 
> communication, with control and data traffic distinguished by 
> a CAPWAP header value (the mux solution).
> 
> Strong opinions have been expressed on both sides of this issue, and  
> the WG has had trouble coming to consensus on a single choice.   
> Discussions in this area have included a wide variety of 
> networking topics, such as Quality of Service, NAT Traversal 
> and Mobility.
> 
> Given the breadth of the technical issues under discussion, 
> our Area Director, Dan Romascanu, decided to solicit advice 
> from the IESG to help us understand the technical trade-offs, 
> and to help us understand which factors it would be 
> reasonable to consider in our working group decision -- 
> specifically whether or not it was reasonable for us to 
> consider the hardware implications of this decision.  The 
> only IESG members who showed up for the discussion were Mark 
> Townsley, one of the Internet ADs, and our two OPS ADs, Dan 
> and David Kessens.  We didn't receive a definitive answer 
> from the IESG, but a clear message was received from Mark 
> Townsley that it is reasonable for the group to consider the 
> hardware implications of our work -- both compatibility with 
> currently deployed hardware, and the hardware architectures 
> we might want to support in the future.
> 
> After much discussion with the interested IESG members, the 
> document editors, the proponents of both solutions and some 
> people who have proposed compromise solutions, the chairs 
> believe that the key technical difference between these two 
> proposals is which hardware
> architecture(s) they will support.  There are currently two 
> different classes of AC hardware deployed, and variants on 
> both of these architectures may be deployed in the future:
> 
> - Single-Processor:  In this architecture, the control plane 
> and the data plane run on a single processor.  The 
> demultiplexing of control and data packets happens on that processor.
> 
> - Separate Data & Control Planes:  In this architecture, the 
> data and control planes run on separate processors (and 
> possibly on separate cards), typically connected via a 
> switching fabric.  This is a common hardware architecture for 
> higher-end routing and switching hardware, and it relies on a 
> port-based splitting/load-balancing approach to separate the 
> control and data traffic.  For CAPWAP to work efficiently on 
> these systems, it must be possible to distinguish the control 
> and data traffic in the switching hardware, which is 
> typically done based on the five-tuple of the send & recv IP 
> addresses, the protocol (UDP), and the send & recv port 
> numbers.  The switching hardware cannot do the type of deep 
> packet inspection required to demultiplex on CAPWAP header fields.
> 
> The 2-port approach supports both the "Single-Processor" AC 
> architecture and the "Separate Data & Control Planes" AC 
> architecture.  Proponents of this solution believe that it is 
> important to support the "Separate Data & Control Planes"  
> architecture efficiently, both for compatibility with 
> currently deployed hardware and to allow this hardware 
> architecture to be used for future CAPWAP-enabled products.
> 
> The mux approach will only operate efficiently on "Single-Processor"  
> systems. as it relies on the ability to demultiplex the 
> control and data traffic using CAPWAP header information.  
> Proponents of this solution believe that it will simplify 
> CAPWAP software implementation, and that it makes NAT 
> traversal (when the AC and the WTPs are on different sides of 
> a NAT) simpler to configure.
> 
> This complexity is a consequence of the choice to tunnel all 
> WLAN data traffic to the AC.  In split-MAC local-forwarding 
> mode, only the control plane traffic would be sent to the AC, 
> and data plane forwarding would be handled by the WTPs themselves.
> 
> We've heard from a couple of strong voices on this issue. but 
> now we'd like to hear from the rest of the WG...
> 
> Which hardware architecture(s) does the CAPWAP protocol needs 
> to support?
> 
> Specifically, do you think that it should be a requirement to   
> support efficient operation on currently deployed and future 
> ACs that follow the "Separate Control & Data Planes" 
> architecture described above?  Or do you think that it would 
> be acceptable to produce a somewhat cleaner and simpler 
> protocol that will not work efficiently on those ACs?
> 
> Please send your response by Thursday, October 5th (two weeks 
> from today), so that the chairs can gauge the consensus of 
> the WG in this matter.
> 
> After we have an understanding of which hardware 
> architecture(s) the CAPWAP protocol needs to support, we will 
> make an effort to sort through the various proposals and 
> counter-proposals that meet that requirement.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> The CAPWAP Chairs
> Dorothy Gellert, Mahalingam Mani & Margaret Wasserman
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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From: "Scott G. Kelly" <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>
To: Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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Hi Margaret,

Comments inline below...

-----Original Message-----
>From: Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com>
>Sent: Oct 6, 2006 9:39 AM
>To: Scott G Kelly <scott@hyperthought.com>
>Cc: Cheng Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>, capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
>Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
>
>
>While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal  
>implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to the  
>protocol portion of the document (as well as the security  
>considerations) to explain how this is handled.  How about something  
>like:
>
>The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the 4-way  
>802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal RSC  
>value to use.  Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC value  
>are outside the scope of this specification.
>
>I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope that  
>implementors figure this out.
>
>Margaret

After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring myself to agree with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think always using an RSC value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that we've acknowledged we are introducing a vulnerability here (however slight), telling implementors they SHOULD do this just doesn't sit right with me. 

An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do better than always setting this to zero, and explicitly recommending that people nail this window open just rubs me the wrong way. At least, let's hold off on this decision until we've clearly defined what statistics we expect to be available. Seems like if we're going to tell implementors what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well considered advice.

Scott

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Dorothy:

 

Thanks for your comment, it is fine.

Just as you mentioned, WG needs to clarify on the base vs binding
division of labor. Anyway, a clear rule and scope of base protocol should be
there.

Till then, I think discussion on each TLV in detail will be more meaningful.

 

I thought the scope of CAPWAP base protocol will be two way alternative:

1) Take effort on the control and data tunnel, tunnel related TLV is focus. 

No any wireless related element like Tx power, Channel, wlan and so on.

2) Based on 1), more abstract wireless element put in the base protocol.

For example, radio, Tx power, channel and so on. Also, give a way to
identify 

each wireless binding of 802.11, RFID and so on.

 

Whether putting TLV in base or wireless binding just follow the rule made 

by WG or mailing list is ok.

 

Regards

Richard (shiyang)

 


From: Dorothy Stanley (dstanley1389gmail.com) 


Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:36:38 -0700 (PDT) 

Richard, 

Notes inline. 

Thanks, 

Dorothy

On 10/5/06, young <young <mailto:young%20%5bat%5d%20huawei-3com.com>  [at]
huawei-3com.com> wrote: 

Hi, Dorothy:
Thanks for your proposed resolutions. 

You're welcome.

In your Proposed Resolution, you mentioned that " While there may be common 
elements, it's not clear that the
CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying the
common elements
across wireless systems."
If it is not clear, I suggest that WG or mailing list had better take time 
to make it clear.
Otherwise, how to decide what info should put in the base part if base part
scope is not clear?
I thought a clear and common understanding of base part's rule and scope is
very important for 
base part separation from wireless specific binding.


I completely agree that the WG needs to clarify on the base vs binding
division of labor.
The current draft, with the exception (largely) of  the WTP Radio
information element, puts the 
wireless-technology specific elements in the binding rather than the base
protocol. This is
the approach I followed in developing the proposed resolutions. 
Most of the CAPWAP level message elements are used to establish and manage
the
session between the AC and WTP.  Some message elements, for example
 the WTP radio statistics and Decryption Error Report are borderline and
could arguably
move to the binding; but they are not technology specific - e.g. 802.11 vs
802.16.

 

I give my comment for the proposed resolutions to issue 204.
1) 4.4.38.  WTP Radio Information 
Sorry for I don't make issue clear in my comment.
I suggest that WTP Radio Information could be kept in the current section
4.4.
While 802.11a/b/g/n these kinds info could be defined by 802.11binding.
We could add a Wireless binding identifier in the WTP Radio Information. 
By this way, we could identify any Wireless binding's radio type definition.
The Wireless binding identifier could be probably eventually managed by
IANA.
No matter what method will by used for Wireless binding identifier, it is a 
key
Point to help base protocol to separate any wireless binding.
I thought that Wireless binding identifier method will be a common issue.


I considered several options on this one. 
(a) Have both a CAPWAP
base element that included the "first level" radio information: 802.11,
802.15,
802.16, 802.22, EPCGlobal, etc, AND specific binding elements that
specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc. Thus as the first
levels churn internally, the base spec isn't impacted. But if the detailed
level
is provided, is the higher level even needed?

(b) Have  only binding-specific  elements that
specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc. 
The binding will need to specify that the element must be included in the
control messages that the previous CAPWAP level element was in.

(c) keeping the definition as is. Didn't do this, since the change
did make the CAPWAP base spec even more wireless-technology agnostic.

The WTP Radio information message element includes only 2 fields, the
radio type and the radio information. If we want radio specific info in the
base spec, then we can leave it there, and add the 802.11,15,16,etc values -
and
require that the capwap base spec change as new values are added, or we can
move the radio-type info to the binding, and then as the wireless technology
evolves, only the binding doc has to change.  

 

2) 11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power
I suggest we could define a "WTP Radio configuration" TLV. 
By using wireless binding identifier, there will be no conflict with
Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table.
Channel also could be put here.
As AC will configure AP's RF parameter (AC to AP), and AP will report its
current
Configuration to AC, the TLV will be carried in the configuration message in
bi-direction.
More TLV could be added into the TLV if it is required.
|---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|------

---|---------|
| Radio ID| country code| wireless binding identifier | Max Tx Power |Tx
Power | Channel  |
|---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|------
-- |----------|
As Tx power these kind info will not be carried in the discovery phase, I 
suggest that "WTP Radio configuration"
is required instead of extenuation of " WTP Radio Information".


Ok, so the proposal is to have a new base-spec-level message element,
that incorporates a binding-defined-identifier for Radio Configuration.
This would require the TX power fields to have the same units across
wireless types. This level of configuration is currenly in the binding and
my preference would be to leave it there. 

 

Regards
Richard (shiyang)

 


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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.5pt'>Dorothy:</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.5pt'>Thanks for your comment, it is fine.</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=Arial><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:
9.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Just as you mentioned, </span></font><span lang=EN-US>WG
needs to clarify on the base vs binding<br>
division of labor. Anyway, a clear rule and scope of base protocol should be
there.</span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.5pt'>Till then, I think discussion on each TLV in detail
will be more meaningful.</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.5pt'>I thought the scope of CAPWAP base protocol will be
two way alternative:</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.5pt'>1) Take effort on the control and data tunnel, tunnel
related TLV is focus. </span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.5pt'>No any wireless related element like Tx power, Channel,
wlan and so on.</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.5pt'>2) Based on 1), more abstract wireless element put in
the base protocol.</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.5pt'>For example, radio, Tx power, channel and so on. Also,
give a way to identify </span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.5pt'>each wireless binding of 802.11, RFID and so on.</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.5pt'>Whether putting TLV in base or wireless binding just
follow the rule made </span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.5pt'>by WG or mailing list is ok.</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.5pt'>Regards</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.5pt'>Richard (shiyang)</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=Arial><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:
9.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width="100%"
 style='width:100.0%'>
 <tr>
  <td valign=top style='padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
  <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
  style='font-size:10.5pt'>From: Dorothy Stanley (dstanley1389<img width=13
  height=12 src="cid:image001.gif@01C6E9FA.A2872720">gmail.com) </span></font></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
 <tr>
  <td valign=top style='padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm' id=date>
  <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
  style='font-size:10.5pt'>Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:36:38 -0700 (PDT) </span></font></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

<!--X-Subject-Header-End--><!--X-Head-of-Message--><!--X-Head-of-Message-End--><!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin-->

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt'><!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--><!--X-Body-of-Message-->Richard,
<br>
<br>
Notes inline. <br>
<br>
Thanks, <br>
<br>
Dorothy</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span class=gmailquote><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt'>On 10/5/06, <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>young</span></b> &lt;<a href="mailto:young%20%5bat%5d%20huawei-3com.com">young
[at] huawei-3com.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span></font></span><span lang=EN-US> </span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.5pt'>Hi, Dorothy:<br>
Thanks for your proposed resolutions.&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.5pt'>You're welcome.</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.5pt'>In your Proposed Resolution, you mentioned that &quot;
While there may be common <br>
elements, it's not clear that the<br>
CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying the<br>
common elements<br>
across wireless systems.&quot;<br>
If it is not clear, I suggest that WG or mailing list had better take time <br>
to make it clear.<br>
Otherwise, how to decide what info should put in the base part if base part<br>
scope is not clear?<br>
I thought a clear and common understanding of base part's rule and scope is<br>
very important for <br>
base part separation from wireless specific binding.</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt'><br>
I completely agree that the WG needs to clarify on the base vs binding<br>
division of labor.<br>
The current draft, with the exception (largely) of&nbsp; the WTP Radio
information element, puts the <br>
wireless-technology specific elements in the binding rather than the base
protocol. This is<br>
the approach I followed in developing the proposed resolutions. <br>
Most of the CAPWAP level message elements are used to establish and manage the<br>
session between the AC and WTP.&nbsp; Some message elements, for example<br>
&nbsp;the WTP radio statistics and Decryption Error Report are borderline and
could arguably<br>
move to the binding; but they are not technology specific - e.g. 802.11 vs
802.16.</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.5pt'>I give my comment for the proposed resolutions to
issue 204.<br>
1) 4.4.38.&nbsp;&nbsp;WTP Radio Information <br>
Sorry for I don't make issue clear in my comment.<br>
I suggest that WTP Radio Information could be kept in the current section<br>
4.4.<br>
While 802.11a/b/g/n these kinds info could be defined by 802.11binding.<br>
We could add a Wireless binding identifier in the WTP Radio Information. <br>
By this way, we could identify any Wireless binding's radio type definition.<br>
The Wireless binding identifier could be probably eventually managed by<br>
IANA.<br>
No matter what method will by used for Wireless binding identifier, it is a <br>
key<br>
Point to help base protocol to separate any wireless binding.<br>
I thought that Wireless binding identifier method will be a common issue.</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.5pt'><br>
I considered several options on this one. <br>
(a) Have both a CAPWAP<br>
base element that included the &quot;first level&quot; radio information:
802.11, 802.15,<br>
802.16, 802.22, EPCGlobal, etc, AND specific binding elements that<br>
specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc. Thus as the first<br>
levels churn internally, the base spec isn't impacted. But if the detailed
level<br>
is provided, is the higher level even needed?<br>
<br>
(b) Have&nbsp; only binding-specific&nbsp; elements that<br>
specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc. <br>
The binding will need to specify that the element must be included in the<br>
control messages that the previous CAPWAP level element was in.<br>
<br>
(c) keeping the definition as is. Didn't do this, since the change<br>
did make the CAPWAP base spec even more wireless-technology agnostic.<br>
<br>
The WTP Radio information message element includes only 2 fields, the<br>
radio type and the radio information. If we want radio specific info in the<br>
base spec, then we can leave it there, and add the 802.11,15,16,etc values -
and<br>
require that the capwap base spec change as new values are added, or we can<br>
move the radio-type info to the binding, and then as the wireless technology<br>
evolves, only the binding doc has to change.&nbsp; </span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.5pt'>2) 11.9.18.&nbsp;&nbsp;IEEE 802.11 Tx Power<br>
I suggest we could define a &quot;WTP Radio configuration&quot; TLV. <br>
By using wireless binding identifier, there will be no conflict with<br>
Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table.<br>
Channel also could be put here.<br>
As AC will configure AP's RF parameter (AC to AP), and AP will report its<br>
current<br>
Configuration to AC, the TLV will be carried in the configuration message in<br>
bi-direction.<br>
More TLV could be added into the TLV if it is required.<br>
|---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|------ <br>
---|---------|<br>
| Radio ID| country code| wireless binding identifier | Max Tx Power |Tx<br>
Power | Channel&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br>
|---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|------<br>
-- |----------|<br>
As Tx power these kind info will not be carried in the discovery phase, I <br>
suggest that &quot;WTP Radio configuration&quot;<br>
is required instead of extenuation of &quot; WTP Radio Information&quot;.</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.5pt'><br>
Ok, so the proposal is to have a new base-spec-level message element,<br>
that incorporates a binding-defined-identifier for Radio Configuration.<br>
This would require the TX power fields to have the same units across<br>
wireless types. This level of configuration is currenly in the binding and<br>
my preference would be to leave it there. </span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.5pt'>Regards<br>
Richard (shiyang)</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=Arial><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:
9.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

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From: "Cheng Hong" <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>
To: "Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>,
	"Margaret Wasserman" <margaret@thingmagic.com>
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Hi Scott,

Some comments below:

> After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring myself 
> to agree with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think 
> always using an RSC value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that 
> we've acknowledged we are introducing a vulnerability here 
> (however slight), telling implementors they SHOULD do this 
> just doesn't sit right with me. 
> 
> An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do 
> better than always setting this to zero, and explicitly 
> recommending that people nail this window open just rubs me 
> the wrong way. At least, let's hold off on this decision 
> until we've clearly defined what statistics we expect to be 
> available. Seems like if we're going to tell implementors 
> what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well 
> considered advice.

I absolutely agree with you on this point. 

What I was trying to state in my previous emails was:
- I would against setting a static value for the KeyRSC as a solution to
this issue. 
- However if the WG decided to go for a static value, the draft should
clearly point out that NOT all static value could work (value other than
zero may be a problem for interoperability).
- And the draft needs to clearly point out what is the danger of setting
a static KeyRSC value in the security consideration section.
- Also, the draft should not prohibit other implementation for sync the
KeyRSC value between WTP and AC (the CAPWAP standard should not dictate
such implementation incompatible). 

If there is a alternative solution than setting a static KeyRSC value to
narrow the window, I would vote for it.

cheers

Cheng Hong



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] 
> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:26 AM
> To: Margaret Wasserman
> Cc: capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> Considerations
> 
> Hi Margaret,
> 
> Comments inline below...
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com>
> >Sent: Oct 6, 2006 9:39 AM
> >To: Scott G Kelly <scott@hyperthought.com>
> >Cc: Cheng Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>, capwap 
> ><capwap@frascone.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> Considerations
> >
> >
> >While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal 
> >implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to the 
> >protocol portion of the document (as well as the security
> >considerations) to explain how this is handled.  How about something
> >like:
> >
> >The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the 4-way 
> >802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal RSC 
> >value to use.  Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC 
> value are 
> >outside the scope of this specification.
> >
> >I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope that 
> >implementors figure this out.
> >
> >Margaret
> 
> After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring myself 
> to agree with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think 
> always using an RSC value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that 
> we've acknowledged we are introducing a vulnerability here 
> (however slight), telling implementors they SHOULD do this 
> just doesn't sit right with me. 
> 
> An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do 
> better than always setting this to zero, and explicitly 
> recommending that people nail this window open just rubs me 
> the wrong way. At least, let's hold off on this decision 
> until we've clearly defined what statistics we expect to be 
> available. Seems like if we're going to tell implementors 
> what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well 
> considered advice.
> 
> Scott
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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From: "Saravanan Govindan" <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>
To: "Cheng Hong" <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>,
	"Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>,
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Hi Cheng Hong, Scott,

I share your concerns for setting the KeyRSC to 0. 

In my opinion, it is clear that the protocol is "broken" in this case
and needs to be fixed. 

My suggestion is to have the KeyRSC field be updated by the WTP. So the
AC could send Message-3 of the 4-way handshake to the WTP with an empty
KeyRSC field. The WTP could then correctly update the field, compute the
KeyMIC, update Message-3 and then forward it to the STA. 

Of course, this requires a CAPWAP message from the AC and WTP to
exchange the incomplete Message-3. I think this is an acceptable
addition because it maintains the integrity of 802.11i exchanges and
provides a complete fix to the problem. 

Saravanan





-----Original Message-----
From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:21 PM
To: Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman
Cc: capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations

Hi Scott,

Some comments below:

> After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring myself 
> to agree with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think 
> always using an RSC value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that 
> we've acknowledged we are introducing a vulnerability here 
> (however slight), telling implementors they SHOULD do this 
> just doesn't sit right with me. 
> 
> An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do 
> better than always setting this to zero, and explicitly 
> recommending that people nail this window open just rubs me 
> the wrong way. At least, let's hold off on this decision 
> until we've clearly defined what statistics we expect to be 
> available. Seems like if we're going to tell implementors 
> what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well 
> considered advice.

I absolutely agree with you on this point. 

What I was trying to state in my previous emails was:
- I would against setting a static value for the KeyRSC as a solution to
this issue. 
- However if the WG decided to go for a static value, the draft should
clearly point out that NOT all static value could work (value other than
zero may be a problem for interoperability).
- And the draft needs to clearly point out what is the danger of setting
a static KeyRSC value in the security consideration section.
- Also, the draft should not prohibit other implementation for sync the
KeyRSC value between WTP and AC (the CAPWAP standard should not dictate
such implementation incompatible). 

If there is a alternative solution than setting a static KeyRSC value to
narrow the window, I would vote for it.

cheers

Cheng Hong



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] 
> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:26 AM
> To: Margaret Wasserman
> Cc: capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> Considerations
> 
> Hi Margaret,
> 
> Comments inline below...
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com>
> >Sent: Oct 6, 2006 9:39 AM
> >To: Scott G Kelly <scott@hyperthought.com>
> >Cc: Cheng Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>, capwap 
> ><capwap@frascone.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> Considerations
> >
> >
> >While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal 
> >implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to the 
> >protocol portion of the document (as well as the security
> >considerations) to explain how this is handled.  How about something
> >like:
> >
> >The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the 4-way 
> >802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal RSC 
> >value to use.  Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC 
> value are 
> >outside the scope of this specification.
> >
> >I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope that 
> >implementors figure this out.
> >
> >Margaret
> 
> After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring myself 
> to agree with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think 
> always using an RSC value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that 
> we've acknowledged we are introducing a vulnerability here 
> (however slight), telling implementors they SHOULD do this 
> just doesn't sit right with me. 
> 
> An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do 
> better than always setting this to zero, and explicitly 
> recommending that people nail this window open just rubs me 
> the wrong way. At least, let's hold off on this decision 
> until we've clearly defined what statistics we expect to be 
> available. Seems like if we're going to tell implementors 
> what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well 
> considered advice.
> 
> Scott
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> 
> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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From: "Cheng Hong" <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>
To: "Charles Clancy" <clancy@cs.umd.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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Hi Charles,

> appears.  For example, the WTP would need to communicate it's 
> ability to be queried for the KeyRSC to the AC during initialization.

Yes. It would require AC to know if WTP supports the sync of KeyRSC
value. If WTP doesn't, AC could choose to set a static value for KeyRSC.


The capability exchange has already been in the CAPWAP protocol for
initialize the connection between AC and WTP. This probably is just
another bit to be defined.

cheers

Cheng Hong


 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] 
> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 8:33 PM
> To: Cheng Hong
> Cc: Dorothy Stanley; capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> Considerations
> 
> You're suggesting the disclaimer and "static initialization value" 
> (perhaps more accurate term than a "default value") would be 
> mandatory to implement, and there would also be an optional 
> information exchange to synchronize the KeyRSC to something 
> else.  That certainly sounds like a good compromise, but I 
> suspect a little more complicated to implement than it first 
> appears.  For example, the WTP would need to communicate it's 
> ability to be queried for the KeyRSC to the AC during initialization.
> 
> --
> t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
> 
> Cheng Hong wrote:
> > Hi Charles and all,
> > 
> > To specify a "default" value means specifying it to "zero". 
> Otherwise, 
> > it would not work. Say, the "default" value is set to 100, but the 
> > actual sequence number used could be 50 at the moment. It means the 
> > STA is not able to receive the Broadcast/Multicast packets for the 
> > next 50 seqeunce count.
> > 
> > So, I think we need some clarification on what is the 
> decision here. 
> > Is the decision now:
> > - No change to the protocol design except some security disclaimers.
> > And, specify a default value (0) to be used by the AC always.
> > 
> > Or, We also allow:
> > - The WTP and AC can choose to implement info exchange methods (a 
> > simple element to be specified in the draft). However, if some AC 
> > choose not to support such mechanism, it will have to set 
> the KeyRSC 
> > to zero. And a security disclaimer to state what is the effect of 
> > setting the KeyRSC to zero.
> > 
> > cheers
> > 
> > Cheng Hong
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu]
> >> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 9:24 AM
> >> To: Dorothy Stanley
> >> Cc: capwap
> >> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> >> Considerations
> >>
> >> We'd definitely need to specify a value for keyRSC in the 
> appropriate 
> >> section.  That would be in addition to the changes to the security 
> >> considerations.  Without specifying a default value, we could have 
> >> interoperability issues between WTPs and ACs.
> >>
> >> --
> >> t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
> >>
> >> Dorothy Stanley wrote:
> >>> Behcet,
> >>>
> >>> My understanding of Scott's recommendations is that  text 
> be added 
> >>> into the security considerations section.
> >>> - no additional CAPWAP protocol exchange between the WTP and AC
> >>> - no specification of setting the keyRSC value to 0.
> >>>
> >>> Without some specification in the protocol, how can the 
> WTP provide 
> >>> the KeyRSC info to the AC in a way that the AC is sure to
> >> understand?
> >>> The most we can say
> >>> with respect to the standard is that an AC implementation
> >> is free to
> >>> comes up with its own algorithm to set the keyRSC value.
> >>>
> >>> Dorothy
> >>>
> >>> On 10/5/06, *Behcet Sarikaya* <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com 
> >>> <mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>     I agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as a
> >> possibility.
> >>>     As far as interoperability is concerned, value 0 is
> >> interoperable
> >>>     but not correct. If we allow implementations to snif in
> >> and modify
> >>>     then any value should be acceptable which may be a concern for
> >>>     interoperability?
> >>>
> >>>     ----- Original Message ----
> >>>     From: Scott G. Kelly < s.kelly@ix.netcom.com
> >>>     <mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>>
> >>>     To: capwap <capwap@frascone.com <mailto:capwap@frascone.com>>
> >>>     Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM
> >>>     Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> >>> Considerations
> >>>
> >>>     Following up once again - after careful review, I still
> >> agree with
> >>>     Charles, and here's some suggested text for the
> >> security considerations:
> >>>     13.5.  IEEE 802.11 Security
> >>>
> >>>         When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP
> >>>     encryption, the
> >>>        CAPWAP protocol does not add any new
> >> vulnerabilities.  Derived
> >>>        session keys between the STA and WTP can be
> >> compromised, resulting in
> >>>        many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD
> >> discourage the use
> >>>        of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic
> >>>     solutions
> >>>        such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.
> >>>
> >>>        When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the 
> CAPWAP protocol
> >>>        may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on
> >> whether the link
> >>>     security
> >>>       (packet encryption and integrity verification) is
> >> provided by the
> >>>     WTP or the AC.
> >>>        When the link security function is provided by the 
> AC, no new
> >>>     security
> >>>        concerns are introduced.
> >>>
> >>>        However, when the WTP provides link security, a new
> >> vulnerability
> >>>     will
> >>>        exist when the following conditions are true:
> >>>
> >>>         o the client is not the first to associate to the 
> WTP/ESSID
> >>>             (i.e. other clients are associated), and a 
> GTK already 
> >>> exists
> >>>
> >>>             o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK
> >>>
> >>>        Under these circumstances, the receive sequence
> >> counter (KeyRSC)
> >>>        associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the
> >> AC anchors the
> >>>        4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of
> >> the KeyRSC is not
> >>>        known when the AC constructs the message 
> containing the GTK.
> >>>        The client will update its Key RSC value to the
> >> current valid KeyRSC
> >>>        upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message,
> >> but prior to
> >>>     this,
> >>>        previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was
> >> secured with the
> >>>     existing
> >>>        GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this
> >> traffic as
> >>>     valid.
> >>>
> >>>        Typically, busy networks will produce numerous
> >> multicast or broadcast
> >>>        frames per second, so the window of opportunity with
> >> respect to such
> >>>        replay is expected to be very small. In most
> >> conditions, it is
> >>>     expected that
> >>>        replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP.
> >>>
> >>>        The only way to completely close this window is to
> >> provide the
> >>>        exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any
> >>>        other approach simply narrows the window to varying
> >> degrees. Given
> >>>        the low relative threat level this presents, the additional
> >>>     complexity
> >>>        introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is
> >> not warranted.
> >>>     That
> >>>        is, this specification provides for a calculated
> >> risk in this regard.
> >>>     ==>
> >>>     However, WTP implementations MAY provide the exact 
> KeyRSC value
> >>>     before forwarding message 3 of the 4-way handshake.
> >>>
> >>>     --behcet
> >>>
> >>>     
> >> _________________________________________________________________
> >>>     To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options,
> >> please visit:
> >>>     http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> >>>
> >>>     Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> >>>     <http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> -
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> _________________________________________________________________
> >>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> >>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> >>>
> >>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> >> _________________________________________________________________
> >> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> >> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> >>
> >> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> >>
> 
_________________________________________________________________
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From camdeni@gambrobct.com Mon Oct 09 08:30:11 2006
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Reply-To: "Hena Fitzsimmons" <camdeni@gambrobct.com>
From: "Hena Fitzsimmons" <camdeni@gambrobct.com>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Re: VbAGRA
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 05:26:59 -0700
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Hi,
=20
VbAGRA for less http://www.badeyunjinmdasetion.com
=20
  _____ =20


Very much so, Jim. We have all been awaiting your report. Can you
I slammed the panel shut and punched in a command. A cup of steaming
Wazza? I said incoherently, still numbed with sleep.



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n.com</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
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<P> Very  much so, Jim. We have all been awaiting your report.  Can  =
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steaming<BR>
 Wazza? I said incoherently, still numbed with sleep.<BR></P>
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From qhjqoohxyd@txdemocrats.org Mon Oct 09 08:43:57 2006
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Help or with search a get the latest.
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Help or with search a get the =
latest.<BR>Create=20
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src=3D"cid:000201c6eba0$85c85030$8bfe4ac3@livingRoom"=20
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Viva Liptov=20
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Hi,
=20
VbAGRA for less http://www.ironequestrian.info
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  _____ =20


No one seems to be following us-so lets keep it that way. Five-
Only on alternate years. Lets get to the next one.
Remote controlled gun turret. Note that the top of it is



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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 10:54:35 2006
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Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 07:49:58 -0700
From: Scott G Kelly <scott@hyperthought.com>
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Cc: Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com>,
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	Cheng Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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Hi Everyone,

I think I was careless in my wording, and that has led to some 
confusion. Charles already pointed out that splitting the authenticator 
role across the WTP and AC significantly changes the security model, and 
I thought our various posts on this made clear that the minimal security 
exposure resulting from KeyRSC imprecision does not warrant this level 
of change to the protocol.

However, what I meant to suggest in my Friday post was that rather than 
telling implementors they SHOULD set the value to zero right off the 
bat, we should hold off to see what sort of opportunities arise to 
derive a more accurate value from existing (or simply-added new) 
statistics. If it turns out that there are statistics from which an AC 
might unambiguously derive a "better" value, then (in my opinion) that's 
what implementors SHOULD use. However, we have yet to see if such a 
mechanism exists.

Scott

Saravanan Govindan wrote:
> Hi Cheng Hong, Scott,
> 
> I share your concerns for setting the KeyRSC to 0. 
> 
> In my opinion, it is clear that the protocol is "broken" in this case
> and needs to be fixed. 
> 
> My suggestion is to have the KeyRSC field be updated by the WTP. So the
> AC could send Message-3 of the 4-way handshake to the WTP with an empty
> KeyRSC field. The WTP could then correctly update the field, compute the
> KeyMIC, update Message-3 and then forward it to the STA. 
> 
> Of course, this requires a CAPWAP message from the AC and WTP to
> exchange the incomplete Message-3. I think this is an acceptable
> addition because it maintains the integrity of 802.11i exchanges and
> provides a complete fix to the problem. 
> 
> Saravanan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] 
> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:21 PM
> To: Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman
> Cc: capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
> 
> Hi Scott,
> 
> Some comments below:
> 
>> After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring myself 
>> to agree with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think 
>> always using an RSC value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that 
>> we've acknowledged we are introducing a vulnerability here 
>> (however slight), telling implementors they SHOULD do this 
>> just doesn't sit right with me. 
>>
>> An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do 
>> better than always setting this to zero, and explicitly 
>> recommending that people nail this window open just rubs me 
>> the wrong way. At least, let's hold off on this decision 
>> until we've clearly defined what statistics we expect to be 
>> available. Seems like if we're going to tell implementors 
>> what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well 
>> considered advice.
> 
> I absolutely agree with you on this point. 
> 
> What I was trying to state in my previous emails was:
> - I would against setting a static value for the KeyRSC as a solution to
> this issue. 
> - However if the WG decided to go for a static value, the draft should
> clearly point out that NOT all static value could work (value other than
> zero may be a problem for interoperability).
> - And the draft needs to clearly point out what is the danger of setting
> a static KeyRSC value in the security consideration section.
> - Also, the draft should not prohibit other implementation for sync the
> KeyRSC value between WTP and AC (the CAPWAP standard should not dictate
> such implementation incompatible). 
> 
> If there is a alternative solution than setting a static KeyRSC value to
> narrow the window, I would vote for it.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Cheng Hong
> 
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] 
>> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:26 AM
>> To: Margaret Wasserman
>> Cc: capwap
>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
>> Considerations
>>
>> Hi Margaret,
>>
>> Comments inline below...
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com>
>>> Sent: Oct 6, 2006 9:39 AM
>>> To: Scott G Kelly <scott@hyperthought.com>
>>> Cc: Cheng Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>, capwap 
>>> <capwap@frascone.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
>> Considerations
>>>
>>> While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal 
>>> implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to the 
>>> protocol portion of the document (as well as the security
>>> considerations) to explain how this is handled.  How about something
>>> like:
>>>
>>> The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the 4-way 
>>> 802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal RSC 
>>> value to use.  Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC 
>> value are 
>>> outside the scope of this specification.
>>>
>>> I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope that 
>>> implementors figure this out.
>>>
>>> Margaret
>> After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring myself 
>> to agree with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think 
>> always using an RSC value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that 
>> we've acknowledged we are introducing a vulnerability here 
>> (however slight), telling implementors they SHOULD do this 
>> just doesn't sit right with me. 
>>
>> An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do 
>> better than always setting this to zero, and explicitly 
>> recommending that people nail this window open just rubs me 
>> the wrong way. At least, let's hold off on this decision 
>> until we've clearly defined what statistics we expect to be 
>> available. Seems like if we're going to tell implementors 
>> what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well 
>> considered advice.
>>
>> Scott
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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Hi Scott,

I am not sure the suggestion below affects any security model. As long as 
there is an established security framework between the AC and WTP, the 
suggested approach remains transparent.

Furthermore, given that the protocol is still in development, I think we 
should seriously consider all options.

Saravanan




----Original Message Follows----
From: Scott G Kelly <scott@hyperthought.com>
To: Saravanan Govindan <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>
CC: Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com>,capwap 
<capwap@frascone.com>,Cheng Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 07:49:58 -0700

Hi Everyone,

I think I was careless in my wording, and that has led to some
confusion. Charles already pointed out that splitting the authenticator
role across the WTP and AC significantly changes the security model, and
I thought our various posts on this made clear that the minimal security
exposure resulting from KeyRSC imprecision does not warrant this level
of change to the protocol.

However, what I meant to suggest in my Friday post was that rather than
telling implementors they SHOULD set the value to zero right off the
bat, we should hold off to see what sort of opportunities arise to
derive a more accurate value from existing (or simply-added new)
statistics. If it turns out that there are statistics from which an AC
might unambiguously derive a "better" value, then (in my opinion) that's
what implementors SHOULD use. However, we have yet to see if such a
mechanism exists.

Scott

Saravanan Govindan wrote:
 > Hi Cheng Hong, Scott,
 >
 > I share your concerns for setting the KeyRSC to 0.
 >
 > In my opinion, it is clear that the protocol is "broken" in this case
 > and needs to be fixed.
 >
 > My suggestion is to have the KeyRSC field be updated by the WTP. So the
 > AC could send Message-3 of the 4-way handshake to the WTP with an empty
 > KeyRSC field. The WTP could then correctly update the field, compute the
 > KeyMIC, update Message-3 and then forward it to the STA.
 >
 > Of course, this requires a CAPWAP message from the AC and WTP to
 > exchange the incomplete Message-3. I think this is an acceptable
 > addition because it maintains the integrity of 802.11i exchanges and
 > provides a complete fix to the problem.
 >
 > Saravanan
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
 > Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:21 PM
 > To: Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman
 > Cc: capwap
 > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
 >
 > Hi Scott,
 >
 > Some comments below:
 >
 >> After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring myself
 >> to agree with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think
 >> always using an RSC value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that
 >> we've acknowledged we are introducing a vulnerability here
 >> (however slight), telling implementors they SHOULD do this
 >> just doesn't sit right with me.
 >>
 >> An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do
 >> better than always setting this to zero, and explicitly
 >> recommending that people nail this window open just rubs me
 >> the wrong way. At least, let's hold off on this decision
 >> until we've clearly defined what statistics we expect to be
 >> available. Seems like if we're going to tell implementors
 >> what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well
 >> considered advice.
 >
 > I absolutely agree with you on this point.
 >
 > What I was trying to state in my previous emails was:
 > - I would against setting a static value for the KeyRSC as a solution to
 > this issue.
 > - However if the WG decided to go for a static value, the draft should
 > clearly point out that NOT all static value could work (value other than
 > zero may be a problem for interoperability).
 > - And the draft needs to clearly point out what is the danger of setting
 > a static KeyRSC value in the security consideration section.
 > - Also, the draft should not prohibit other implementation for sync the
 > KeyRSC value between WTP and AC (the CAPWAP standard should not dictate
 > such implementation incompatible).
 >
 > If there is a alternative solution than setting a static KeyRSC value to
 > narrow the window, I would vote for it.
 >
 > cheers
 >
 > Cheng Hong
 >
 >
 >
 >> -----Original Message-----
 >> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com]
 >> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:26 AM
 >> To: Margaret Wasserman
 >> Cc: capwap
 >> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
 >> Considerations
 >>
 >> Hi Margaret,
 >>
 >> Comments inline below...
 >>
 >> -----Original Message-----
 >>> From: Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com>
 >>> Sent: Oct 6, 2006 9:39 AM
 >>> To: Scott G Kelly <scott@hyperthought.com>
 >>> Cc: Cheng Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>, capwap
 >>> <capwap@frascone.com>
 >>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
 >> Considerations
 >>>
 >>> While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal
 >>> implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to the
 >>> protocol portion of the document (as well as the security
 >>> considerations) to explain how this is handled.  How about something
 >>> like:
 >>>
 >>> The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the 4-way
 >>> 802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal RSC
 >>> value to use.  Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC
 >> value are
 >>> outside the scope of this specification.
 >>>
 >>> I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope that
 >>> implementors figure this out.
 >>>
 >>> Margaret
 >> After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring myself
 >> to agree with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think
 >> always using an RSC value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that
 >> we've acknowledged we are introducing a vulnerability here
 >> (however slight), telling implementors they SHOULD do this
 >> just doesn't sit right with me.
 >>
 >> An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do
 >> better than always setting this to zero, and explicitly
 >> recommending that people nail this window open just rubs me
 >> the wrong way. At least, let's hold off on this decision
 >> until we've clearly defined what statistics we expect to be
 >> available. Seems like if we're going to tell implementors
 >> what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well
 >> considered advice.
 >>
 >> Scott
 >>
 >> _________________________________________________________________
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components
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Again agree with Dorothy.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 10:37 AM
	To: young@huawei-3com.com
	Cc: capwap@frascone.com
	Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its
components
=09
=09
	Richard,=20
=09
	Notes inline.=20
=09
	Thanks,=20
=09
	Dorothy
=09
=09
	On 10/5/06, young <young@huawei-3com.com> wrote:=20

		Hi, Dorothy:
		Thanks for your proposed resolutions.=20

	You're welcome.
=09

		In your Proposed Resolution, you mentioned that " While
there may be common=20
		elements, it's not clear that the
		CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of
extracting/unifying the
		common elements
		across wireless systems."
		If it is not clear, I suggest that WG or mailing list
had better take time=20
		to make it clear.
		Otherwise, how to decide what info should put in the
base part if base part
		scope is not clear?
		I thought a clear and common understanding of base
part's rule and scope is
		very important for=20
		base part separation from wireless specific binding.


	I completely agree that the WG needs to clarify on the base vs
binding
	division of labor.
	The current draft, with the exception (largely) of  the WTP
Radio information element, puts the=20
	wireless-technology specific elements in the binding rather than
the base protocol. This is
	the approach I followed in developing the proposed resolutions.=20
	Most of the CAPWAP level message elements are used to establish
and manage the
	session between the AC and WTP.  Some message elements, for
example
	 the WTP radio statistics and Decryption Error Report are
borderline and could arguably
	move to the binding; but they are not technology specific - e.g.
802.11 vs 802.16.
=09
=09


		I give my comment for the proposed resolutions to issue
204.
		1) 4.4.38.  WTP Radio Information=20
		Sorry for I don't make issue clear in my comment.
		I suggest that WTP Radio Information could be kept in
the current section
		4.4.
		While 802.11a/b/g/n these kinds info could be defined by
802.11binding.
		We could add a Wireless binding identifier in the WTP
Radio Information.=20
		By this way, we could identify any Wireless binding's
radio type definition.
		The Wireless binding identifier could be probably
eventually managed by
		IANA.
		No matter what method will by used for Wireless binding
identifier, it is a=20
		key
		Point to help base protocol to separate any wireless
binding.
		I thought that Wireless binding identifier method will
be a common issue.


	I considered several options on this one.=20
	(a) Have both a CAPWAP
	base element that included the "first level" radio information:
802.11, 802.15,
	802.16, 802.22, EPCGlobal, etc, AND specific binding elements
that
	specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc. Thus
as the first
	levels churn internally, the base spec isn't impacted. But if
the detailed level
	is provided, is the higher level even needed?
=09
	(b) Have  only binding-specific  elements that
	specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc.=20
	The binding will need to specify that the element must be
included in the
	control messages that the previous CAPWAP level element was in.
=09
	(c) keeping the definition as is. Didn't do this, since the
change
	did make the CAPWAP base spec even more wireless-technology
agnostic.
=09
	The WTP Radio information message element includes only 2
fields, the
	radio type and the radio information. If we want radio specific
info in the
	base spec, then we can leave it there, and add the
802.11,15,16,etc values - and
	require that the capwap base spec change as new values are
added, or we can
	move the radio-type info to the binding, and then as the
wireless technology
	evolves, only the binding doc has to change. =20
=09


		2) 11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power
		I suggest we could define a "WTP Radio configuration"
TLV.=20
		By using wireless binding identifier, there will be no
conflict with
		Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table.
		Channel also could be put here.
		As AC will configure AP's RF parameter (AC to AP), and
AP will report its
		current
		Configuration to AC, the TLV will be carried in the
configuration message in
		bi-direction.
		More TLV could be added into the TLV if it is required.
=09
|---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|--
----=20
		---|---------|
		| Radio ID| country code| wireless binding identifier |
Max Tx Power |Tx
		Power | Channel  |
=09
|---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|--
----
		-- |----------|
		As Tx power these kind info will not be carried in the
discovery phase, I=20
		suggest that "WTP Radio configuration"
		is required instead of extenuation of " WTP Radio
Information".


	Ok, so the proposal is to have a new base-spec-level message
element,
	that incorporates a binding-defined-identifier for Radio
Configuration.
	This would require the TX power fields to have the same units
across
	wireless types. This level of configuration is currenly in the
binding and
	my preference would be to leave it there.=20
=09


		Regards
		Richard (shiyang)
	=09
	=09
	=09
	=09
	=09
		From: Dorothy Stanley ( dstanley1389gmail.com
<http://dstanley1389gmail.com> )
		Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:08:21 -0700 (PDT)
		All,
	=09
		Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components are
		listed below.
	=09
		Comments please.
	=09
		Thanks,
	=09
		Dorothy
	=09
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
		---------------------------------------------
		1) 4.4.38.  WTP Radio Information
		Comment: As the section should be work for any wireless
implement, I suggest=20
		the
		following value should be moved to 802.11 binding. The
value should be
		defined by wireless
		technology binding.
		      1 - 802.11b:  An IEEE 802.11b radio.
		      2 - 802.11a:  An IEEE 802.11a radio.
		      4 -
		802.11g:  An IEEE 802.11g radio.
		      8 - 802.11n:  An IEEE 802.11n radio.
		Proposed Resolution: Move the "need to know" the 802.11
technology specific
		radio types to the 802.11 binding, modifying the WTP
Radio Information=20
		element
		as follows:
		IEEE 802.11 Radio Information
		   The IEEE 802.11 radio information message element is
used to communicate
		the
		   radio information for each IEEE 802.11 radio on the
WTP.  The Discovery=20
		Request message MUST
		   include one such message element per radio in the
WTP.  The Radio-Type
		field is used by the
		   AC to determine which 802.11 technology specific
binding is to be used
		with the WTP.
		   The value contains two fields, as shown.
	=09
		      0                   1                   2
3
		      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 0 1
	=09
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
		     |   Radio ID    |           Radio Type
|
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	=09
		     | Radio Type    |
		     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	=09
		   Type:  38 for WTP Radio Information
		   Length:  5=20
		   Radio ID:  The Radio Identifier, which typically
refers to an
		      interface index on the WTP
		   Radio Type:  The type of IEEE 802.11 radio present.
		      The following values are supported:
		      1 - 802.11b:  An IEEE 802.11b radio.
		      2 - 802.11a:  An IEEE 802.11a radio.
		      4 -
		802.11g:  An IEEE 802.11g radio.
		      8 - 802.11n:  An IEEE 802.11n radio.
		      0xOF - 802.11b, 802.11a, 802.11g and 802.11n :
The 4 radio types
		         indicated are supported in the WTP.
	=09
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
		---------------
		2) 11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power
		Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4,
as channel and Tx
		power are
		common parameters for RF management.
		Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with
the commenter
	=09
		that TX power level is a common parameter for RF
management; however the=20
		IEEE 802.11 TX Power field values are defined as being
the values
		defined in IEEE 802.11Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table,
and thus are not
		extensible to other bindings. Expect that each binding
will define
		values relative to its definitions.=20
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
		3)  Add "WTP radio channel"
		Comment: As per 2), we could define a TLV to report
current channel (AP to
		AC) or to
		configure channel (AC to AP).=20
		Now,. 11.9.12.  IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control and 11.9.5.
IEEE 802.11 Direct
		Sequence Control has channel configuration information.
		But I think that a specific TLV for it is better. By
this way, 4.4 will
		provide=20
		more common parameter for any wireless technology.
	=09
		     0                   1                   2
3
		        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3
4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	=09
		       |    Radio ID   |    Reserved   |        Current
Channel       |
	=09
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	=09
		The commenter suggests the following:
		3) Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4
		The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on
these kind parameter=20
		are common for any kind wireless binding.
		I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part.
		Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio
Information", while Tx power
		these kind Info should not be sent=20
		during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP
RF Radio
		configuration" is better.
		If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in
what kind message
		should be suggested by protocol.=20
		The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include
radio ID, radio type,
		Tx power, Channel, country code and so on.
		For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to
suggest them.
		The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by
bi-direction, by this way,=20
		AC could configure WTP's RF parameter
		and know current configuration on the WTP radio.
		If this way, current "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power",
"11.9.12. IEEE
		802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5 .
		IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will
merely keep the IEEE
		802.11 related element.
		Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. While there
may be common
		elements, it's not clear that the
		CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of
extracting/unifying the
		common elements
		across wireless systems.
	=09
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
		--------
		4) 11.9.24.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Fail Alarm
Indications
	=09
		Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4,
it could be a common
		event for
		any wireless technology.
		Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with
the commmenter=20
		that a fail alarm indication could be a common event for
		any wireless technology. Each radio technology may want
to
		have additional information reported with the event
however. Not
		sure there is sufficient benefit shown for a common
defintiion at this=20
		point.
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
		-----------
	=09
		5) 11.9.1.  IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN
		How about we rename "WLAN" as wireless service? By this
way, we could=20
		achieve
		abstract while make it work for most wireless
technology.
		If it is ok, we could define "add wireless service,
delete wireless service,
	=09
		update wireless service" in the section
		4.4.
		Any wireless technology could add its specific parameter
in the binding
		section.
	=09
		The commenter suggests a solution:
		1) Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add
wireless service",
		and put it in the section 4.4
		The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract
than "WLAN".
		Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could
keep
		Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode,
tunnel mode=20
		these kinds common element (more element maybe put
here).
		While for any specific wireless binding could follow the
Wireless binding
		identifier.
		The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds
binding are using=20
		( Probably eventually managed by IANA)
		Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft.
		The IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN message element is 802.11
specific and used
		together with several other message elements to define a
WLAN service.=20
		The intent of the comment seems to be to have the
ability in the
		CAPWAP protocol to add a generic wireless service. It's
not clear that
		there are enough additional elements common to multiple
wireless
		services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this
at this time.=20
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
		----
		6) 11.9.22.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service
	=09
		As per 5), I think we could define "WTP Quality of
Service"in the section=20
		4.4. Radio ID, Tag Packets and Queue Depth could be
defined in the "WTP
		Quality of
		Service".
	=09
		While CWMin and so on could be defined in the IEEE
802.11 WTP Quality of
		Service.
		The commenter suggests the following solution:=20
		2) Rename "11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service"
as "WTP Quality of
		Service"
		Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets,
Queue Depth in the "WTP
		Quality of Service".=20
		For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to
suggest them.
		For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind
assignment, it will be
		great.
		Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft.
		The IEEE 802.11 WTP QOS message element is 802.11
specific and is needed
		to convey the CWMin , CWMax and other very specific
802.11 data.
		The intent of the comment seems to be to have the
ability in the
		CAPWAP protocol to include a "generic QOS" message
element. It's not clear=20
		that
		there are enough elements common to multiple wireless
		services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this
at this time.
		There is at least 1 - the Tag packets type, which each
binding can inlcude
		if
		desired.
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
		------------------------------------------------------
		7. Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as "WTP Statistics"
in the section 4.4
	=09
		Comment: Most case, the wireless binding will be link
layer protocol, I
		think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics"
		could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like
"RTS Success Count"=20
		and so on.
		For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to
suggest them.
		Proposed resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with
the commenter
		that many of the statistics are common across wireless
technologies.=20
		However the IEEE 802.11 Statistics values are defined as
being the values
		defined in various IEEE 802.11 MIB variables and thus
are not extensible to
		other bindings. Expect that each binding will define
values relative to its=20
		definitions.
	=09
		On 9/28/06, young <young [at] huawei-3com.com> wrote:
		Hi Pat and all,
		I used to raise issue #204, and here intend to give
solution.
		1) Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add
wireless service",
		and put it in the section 4.4
		The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract
than "WLAN".
		Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could
keep
		Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode,
tunnel mode
		these kinds common element (more element maybe put
here).
		While for any specific wireless binding could follow the
Wireless binding=20
		identifier.
		The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds
binding are using
		( Probably eventually managed by IANA)
		0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 0 1
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20
		| Radio ID | WLAN ID | MAC Mode | Tunnel
		Mode
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
		| Wireless binding identifier |
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20
		| Type | Length |
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
		| Value...
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
		It is similar for "IEEE 802.11 deletes WLAN" and "IEEE
802.11 Update WLAN".
	=09
		2) Rename "11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service"
as "WTP Quality of
		Service"
		Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets,
Queue Depth in the "WTP=20
		Quality of Service".
		For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to
suggest them.
		For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind
assignment, it will be
		great.
	=09
		3) Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4
		The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on
these kind parameter
		are common for any kind wireless binding.
		I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part.
		Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio
Information", while Tx power=20
		these kind Info should not be sent
		during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP
RF Radio
		configuration" is better.
		If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in
what kind message=20
		should be suggested by protocol.
		The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include
radio ID, radio type,
		Tx power, Channel, country code and so on.
		For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to
suggest them.=20
		The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by
bi-direction, by this way,
		AC could configure WTP's RF parameter
		and know current configuration on the WTP radio.
		If this way, current "11.9.18 . IEEE 802.11 Tx Power",
"11.9.12. IEEE
		802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5.
		IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will
merely keep the IEEE
		802.11 related element.
		4) Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as "WTP Statistics"
in the section
		4.4
		Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer
protocol, I think most
		the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics"
		could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like
"RTS Success Count"
		and so on.
		For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to
suggest them.
	=09
		Any way, I thought many TLV will change their location
as new CAPWAP will be=20
		divided into two parts.
	=09
		Cheers
	=09
		Richard (Shiyang)
	=09
	=09
	=09
	=09



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<DIV><SPAN class=3D852545416-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Again=20
agree with Dorothy.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Dorothy Stanley=20
  [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 06, =
2006=20
  10:37 AM<BR><B>To:</B> young@huawei-3com.com<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  capwap@frascone.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Capwap] Issue 204 and =
proposed=20
  resolutions to its components<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>Richard, <BR><BR>Notes inline. <BR><BR>Thanks,=20
  <BR><BR>Dorothy<BR><BR>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 10/5/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>young</B>=20
  &lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:young@huawei-3com.com">young@huawei-3com.com</A>&gt;=20
  wrote:</SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Hi,=20
    Dorothy:<BR>Thanks for your proposed =
resolutions.&nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE>You're=20
  welcome.<BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">In=20
    your Proposed Resolution, you mentioned that " While there may be =
common=20
    <BR>elements, it's not clear that the<BR>CAPWAP base specification =
should=20
    take on the task of extracting/unifying the<BR>common =
elements<BR>across=20
    wireless systems."<BR>If it is not clear, I suggest that WG or =
mailing list=20
    had better take time <BR>to make it clear.<BR>Otherwise, how to =
decide what=20
    info should put in the base part if base part<BR>scope is not =
clear?<BR>I=20
    thought a clear and common understanding of base part's rule and =
scope=20
    is<BR>very important for <BR>base part separation from wireless =
specific=20
    binding.</BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>I completely agree that the WG needs to clarify on the base =
vs=20
  binding<BR>division of labor.<BR>The current draft, with the exception =

  (largely) of&nbsp; the WTP Radio information element, puts the=20
  <BR>wireless-technology specific elements in the binding rather than =
the base=20
  protocol. This is<BR>the approach I followed in developing the =
proposed=20
  resolutions. <BR>Most of the CAPWAP level message elements are used to =

  establish and manage the<BR>session between the AC and WTP.&nbsp; Some =
message=20
  elements, for example<BR>&nbsp;the WTP radio statistics and Decryption =
Error=20
  Report are borderline and could arguably<BR>move to the binding; but =
they are=20
  not technology specific - e.g. 802.11 vs 802.16.<BR><BR></DIV><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">I=20
    give my comment for the proposed resolutions to issue 204.<BR>1)=20
    4.4.38.&nbsp;&nbsp;WTP Radio Information <BR>Sorry for I don't make =
issue=20
    clear in my comment.<BR>I suggest that WTP Radio Information could =
be kept=20
    in the current section<BR>4.4.<BR>While 802.11a/b/g/n these kinds =
info could=20
    be defined by 802.11binding.<BR>We could add a Wireless binding =
identifier=20
    in the WTP Radio Information. <BR>By this way, we could identify any =

    Wireless binding's radio type definition.<BR>The Wireless binding =
identifier=20
    could be probably eventually managed by<BR>IANA.<BR>No matter what =
method=20
    will by used for Wireless binding identifier, it is a =
<BR>key<BR>Point to=20
    help base protocol to separate any wireless binding.<BR>I thought =
that=20
    Wireless binding identifier method will be a common =
issue.</BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>I considered several options on this one. <BR>(a) Have both a =

  CAPWAP<BR>base element that included the "first level" radio =
information:=20
  802.11, 802.15,<BR>802.16, 802.22, EPCGlobal, etc, AND specific =
binding=20
  elements that<BR>specify the details, e.g. =
802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc.=20
  Thus as the first<BR>levels churn internally, the base spec isn't =
impacted.=20
  But if the detailed level<BR>is provided, is the higher level even=20
  needed?<BR><BR>(b) Have&nbsp; only binding-specific&nbsp; elements=20
  that<BR>specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc. =
<BR>The=20
  binding will need to specify that the element must be included in=20
  the<BR>control messages that the previous CAPWAP level element was=20
  in.<BR><BR>(c) keeping the definition as is. Didn't do this, since the =

  change<BR>did make the CAPWAP base spec even more wireless-technology=20
  agnostic.<BR><BR>The WTP Radio information message element includes =
only 2=20
  fields, the<BR>radio type and the radio information. If we want radio =
specific=20
  info in the<BR>base spec, then we can leave it there, and add the=20
  802.11,15,16,etc values - and<BR>require that the capwap base spec =
change as=20
  new values are added, or we can<BR>move the radio-type info to the =
binding,=20
  and then as the wireless technology<BR>evolves, only the binding doc =
has to=20
  change.&nbsp; <BR></DIV><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">2)=20
    11.9.18.&nbsp;&nbsp;IEEE 802.11 Tx Power<BR>I suggest we could =
define a "WTP=20
    Radio configuration" TLV. <BR>By using wireless binding identifier, =
there=20
    will be no conflict with<BR>Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB =
table.<BR>Channel also=20
    could be put here.<BR>As AC will configure AP's RF parameter (AC to =
AP), and=20
    AP will report its<BR>current<BR>Configuration to AC, the TLV will =
be=20
    carried in the configuration message in<BR>bi-direction.<BR>More TLV =
could=20
    be added into the TLV if it is=20
    =
required.<BR>|---------|-------------|-----------------------------|-----=
---------|------=20
    <BR>---|---------|<BR>| Radio ID| country code| wireless binding =
identifier=20
    | Max Tx Power |Tx<BR>Power |=20
    =
Channel&nbsp;&nbsp;|<BR>|---------|-------------|------------------------=
-----|--------------|------<BR>--=20
    |----------|<BR>As Tx power these kind info will not be carried in =
the=20
    discovery phase, I <BR>suggest that "WTP Radio configuration"<BR>is =
required=20
    instead of extenuation of " WTP Radio Information".</BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>Ok, so the proposal is to have a new base-spec-level message=20
  element,<BR>that incorporates a binding-defined-identifier for Radio=20
  Configuration.<BR>This would require the TX power fields to have the =
same=20
  units across<BR>wireless types. This level of configuration is =
currenly in the=20
  binding and<BR>my preference would be to leave it there. =
<BR></DIV><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Regards<BR>Richard=20
    (shiyang)<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>From: Dorothy Stanley (<A=20
    href=3D"http://dstanley1389gmail.com"> =
dstanley1389gmail.com</A>)<BR>Date:=20
    Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:08:21 -0700 (PDT)<BR>All,<BR><BR>Issue 204 and =
proposed=20
    resolutions to its components are<BR>listed below.<BR><BR>Comments=20
    =
please.<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR><BR>Dorothy<BR><BR>----------------------------=
------------------------------------------------<BR>---------------------=
------------------------<BR>1)=20
    4.4.38.&nbsp;&nbsp;WTP Radio Information<BR>Comment: As the section =
should=20
    be work for any wireless implement, I suggest <BR>the<BR>following =
value=20
    should be moved to 802.11 binding. The value should be<BR>defined by =

    wireless<BR>technology =
binding.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1 -=20
    802.11b:&nbsp;&nbsp;An IEEE 802.11b=20
    radio.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2 - =
802.11a:&nbsp;&nbsp;An=20
    IEEE 802.11a radio.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;4=20
    -<BR>802.11g:&nbsp;&nbsp;An IEEE 802.11g=20
    radio.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;8 - =
802.11n:&nbsp;&nbsp;An=20
    IEEE 802.11n radio.<BR>Proposed Resolution: Move the "need to know" =
the=20
    802.11 technology specific<BR>radio types to the 802.11 binding, =
modifying=20
    the WTP Radio Information <BR>element<BR>as follows:<BR>IEEE 802.11 =
Radio=20
    Information<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; The IEEE 802.11 radio information =
message=20
    element is used to communicate<BR>the<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; radio =
information for=20
    each IEEE 802.11 radio on the WTP.&nbsp;&nbsp;The Discovery =
<BR>Request=20
    message MUST<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; include one such message element per =
radio in=20
    the WTP.&nbsp;&nbsp;The Radio-Type<BR>field is used by =
the<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    AC to determine which 802.11 technology specific binding is to be=20
    used<BR>with the WTP.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; The value contains two fields, =
as=20
    =
shown.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    =
1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    =
2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    3<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 =
4 5 6 7=20
    8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<BR>&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    |&nbsp;&nbsp; Radio=20
    =
ID&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    Radio=20
    =
Type&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;|<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<BR><BR>=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    | Radio Type&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Type:&nbsp;&nbsp;38 for WTP =
Radio=20
    Information<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Length:&nbsp;&nbsp;5 <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Radio=20
    ID:&nbsp;&nbsp;The Radio Identifier, which typically refers to=20
    an<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;interface index on the=20
    WTP<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Radio Type:&nbsp;&nbsp;The type of IEEE 802.11 =
radio=20
    present.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The following values =
are=20
    supported:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1 - =
802.11b:&nbsp;&nbsp;An=20
    IEEE 802.11b radio.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2 -=20
    802.11a:&nbsp;&nbsp;An IEEE 802.11a=20
    radio.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;4 =
-<BR>802.11g:&nbsp;&nbsp;An=20
    IEEE 802.11g radio.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;8 -=20
    802.11n:&nbsp;&nbsp;An IEEE 802.11n=20
    radio.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0xOF - 802.11b, =
802.11a,=20
    802.11g and 802.11n :&nbsp;&nbsp;The 4 radio=20
    types<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; indicated =
are=20
    supported in the=20
    =
WTP.<BR><BR>-------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------<BR>---------------<BR>2)=20
    11.9.18.&nbsp;&nbsp;IEEE 802.11 Tx Power<BR>Comment: I think it =
could be=20
    moved to the section 4.4, as channel and Tx<BR>power are<BR>common=20
    parameters for RF management.<BR>Proposed Resolution: No change to =
the=20
    draft. Agree with the commenter<BR><BR>that TX power level is a =
common=20
    parameter for RF management; however the <BR>IEEE 802.11 TX Power =
field=20
    values are defined as being the values<BR>defined in IEEE=20
    802.11Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table, and thus are not<BR>extensible =
to=20
    other bindings. Expect that each binding will define<BR>values =
relative to=20
    its definitions.=20
    =
<BR>---------------------------------------------------------------------=
------<BR>3)&nbsp;&nbsp;Add=20
    "WTP radio channel"<BR>Comment: As per 2), we could define a TLV to =
report=20
    current channel (AP to<BR>AC) or to<BR>configure channel (AC to AP). =

    <BR>Now,. 11.9.12.&nbsp;&nbsp;IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control and=20
    11.9.5.&nbsp;&nbsp;IEEE 802.11 Direct<BR>Sequence Control has =
channel=20
    configuration information.<BR>But I think that a specific TLV for it =
is=20
    better. By this way, 4.4 will<BR>provide <BR>more common parameter =
for any=20
    wireless technology.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    =
0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    =
1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    =
2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    3<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 =
8 9 0 1=20
    2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0=20
    1<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<BR><BR>=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Radio ID&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Reserved&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Current=20
    Channel&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    |<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<BR><BR>=
The=20
    commenter suggests the following:<BR>3) Add "WTP RF Radio =
configuration" in=20
    the section 4.4<BR>The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and =
so on=20
    these kind parameter <BR>are common for any kind wireless =
binding.<BR>I=20
    suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part.<BR>Although the =
protocol=20
    already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power<BR>these kind =
Info=20
    should not be sent <BR>during discovery and join phase. So the =
separated=20
    "WTP RF Radio<BR>configuration" is better.<BR>If keep them in one, =
which=20
    element will be mandatory in what kind message<BR>should be =
suggested by=20
    protocol. <BR>The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include =
radio ID,=20
    radio type,<BR>Tx power, Channel, country code and so on.<BR>For any =

    binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.<BR>The =
"WTP RF=20
    Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way, =
<BR>AC=20
    could configure WTP's RF parameter<BR>and know current configuration =
on the=20
    WTP radio.<BR>If this way, current "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power",=20
    "11.9.12. IEEE<BR>802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5 .<BR>IEEE 802.11 =
Direct=20
    Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE<BR>802.11 =
related=20
    element.<BR>Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. While there =
may be=20
    common<BR>elements, it's not clear that the<BR>CAPWAP base =
specification=20
    should take on the task of extracting/unifying the<BR>common=20
    elements<BR>across wireless=20
    =
systems.<BR><BR>---------------------------------------------------------=
-------------------<BR>--------<BR>4)=20
    11.9.24.&nbsp;&nbsp;IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Fail Alarm=20
    Indications<BR><BR>Comment: I think it could be moved to the section =
4.4, it=20
    could be a common<BR>event for<BR>any wireless =
technology.<BR>Proposed=20
    Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commmenter =
<BR>that a=20
    fail alarm indication could be a common event for<BR>any wireless=20
    technology. Each radio technology may want to<BR>have additional =
information=20
    reported with the event however. Not<BR>sure there is sufficient =
benefit=20
    shown for a common defintiion at this=20
    =
<BR>point.<BR>-----------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------<BR>-----------<BR><BR>5)=20
    11.9.1.&nbsp;&nbsp;IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN<BR>How about we rename =
"WLAN" as=20
    wireless service? By this way, we could <BR>achieve<BR>abstract =
while make=20
    it work for most wireless technology.<BR>If it is ok, we could =
define "add=20
    wireless service, delete wireless service,<BR><BR>update wireless =
service"=20
    in the section<BR>4.4.<BR>Any wireless technology could add its =
specific=20
    parameter in the binding<BR>section.<BR><BR>The commenter suggests a =

    solution:<BR>1) Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add =
wireless=20
    service",<BR>and put it in the section 4.4<BR>The glossary "wireless =

    service" will be more abstract than "WLAN".<BR>Refer to current =
"IEEE 802.11=20
    add WLAN" format, we could keep<BR>Radio ID, service ID (rename =
"WLAN ID" to=20
    it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode <BR>these kinds common element (more =
element=20
    maybe put here).<BR>While for any specific wireless binding could =
follow the=20
    Wireless binding<BR>identifier.<BR>The Wireless binding identifier =
will=20
    identify what kinds binding are using <BR>( Probably eventually =
managed by=20
    IANA)<BR>Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft.<BR>The =
IEEE=20
    802.11 Add WLAN message element is 802.11 specific and =
used<BR>together with=20
    several other message elements to define a WLAN service. <BR>The =
intent of=20
    the comment seems to be to have the ability in the<BR>CAPWAP =
protocol to add=20
    a generic wireless service. It's not clear that<BR>there are enough=20
    additional elements common to multiple wireless<BR>services to have =
a=20
    separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time.=20
    =
<BR>---------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<BR>----<BR>6)=20
    11.9.22.&nbsp;&nbsp;IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service<BR><BR>As per =
5), I=20
    think we could define "WTP Quality of Service"in the section =
<BR>4.4. Radio=20
    ID, Tag Packets and Queue Depth could be defined in the =
"WTP<BR>Quality=20
    of<BR>Service".<BR><BR>While CWMin and so on could be defined in the =
IEEE=20
    802.11 WTP Quality of<BR>Service.<BR>The commenter suggests the =
following=20
    solution: <BR>2) Rename "11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of =
Service" as=20
    "WTP Quality of<BR>Service"<BR>Same idea, we could keep the radio =
ID, Tag=20
    Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP<BR>Quality of Service". <BR>For any =

    binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.<BR>For =
Tag=20
    Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will=20
    be<BR>great.<BR>Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the =
draft.<BR>The=20
    IEEE 802.11 WTP QOS message element is 802.11 specific and is =
needed<BR>to=20
    convey the CWMin , CWMax and other very specific 802.11 data.<BR>The =
intent=20
    of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the<BR>CAPWAP =
protocol to=20
    include a "generic QOS" message element. It's not clear =
<BR>that<BR>there=20
    are enough elements common to multiple wireless<BR>services to have =
a=20
    separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time.<BR>There is at =
least 1 -=20
    the Tag packets type, which each binding can=20
    =
inlcude<BR>if<BR>desired.<BR>--------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------<BR>-------------------------------------=
-----------------<BR>7.=20
    Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as "WTP Statistics" in the section =

    4.4<BR><BR>Comment: Most case, the wireless binding will be link =
layer=20
    protocol, I<BR>think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11=20
    Statistics"<BR>could be put on the section 4.4, except the element =
like "RTS=20
    Success Count" <BR>and so on.<BR>For any binding, we use Wireless =
binding=20
    identifier to suggest them.<BR>Proposed resolution: No change to the =
draft.=20
    Agree with the commenter<BR>that many of the statistics are common =
across=20
    wireless technologies. <BR>However the IEEE 802.11 Statistics values =
are=20
    defined as being the values<BR>defined in various IEEE 802.11 MIB =
variables=20
    and thus are not extensible to<BR>other bindings. Expect that each =
binding=20
    will define values relative to its <BR>definitions.<BR><BR>On =
9/28/06, young=20
    &lt;young [at] <A =
href=3D"http://huawei-3com.com">huawei-3com.com</A>&gt;=20
    wrote:<BR>Hi Pat and all,<BR>I used to raise issue #204, and here =
intend to=20
    give solution.<BR>1) Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add =
wireless=20
    service",<BR>and put it in the section 4.4<BR>The glossary "wireless =

    service" will be more abstract than "WLAN".<BR>Refer to current =
"IEEE 802.11=20
    add WLAN" format, we could keep<BR>Radio ID, service ID (rename =
"WLAN ID" to=20
    it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode<BR>these kinds common element (more =
element maybe=20
    put here).<BR>While for any specific wireless binding could follow =
the=20
    Wireless binding <BR>identifier.<BR>The Wireless binding identifier =
will=20
    identify what kinds binding are using<BR>( Probably eventually =
managed by=20
    IANA)<BR>0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 =
0=20
    =
1<BR>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ =
<BR>|=20
    Radio ID | WLAN ID | MAC Mode | Tunnel<BR>Mode=20
    =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<BR>|=20
    Wireless binding identifier=20
    =
|<BR>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ =
<BR>|=20
    Type | Length=20
    =
|<BR>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<BR=
>|=20
    =
Value...<BR>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+<BR>It=20
    is similar for "IEEE 802.11 deletes WLAN" and "IEEE 802.11 Update=20
    WLAN".<BR><BR>2) Rename "11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of =
Service" as=20
    "WTP Quality of<BR>Service"<BR>Same idea, we could keep the radio =
ID, Tag=20
    Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP <BR>Quality of Service".<BR>For any =

    binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.<BR>For =
Tag=20
    Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will=20
    be<BR>great.<BR><BR>3) Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the =
section=20
    4.4<BR>The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these =
kind=20
    parameter<BR>are common for any kind wireless binding.<BR>I suggest =
CAPWAP=20
    define it in the base protocol part.<BR>Although the protocol =
already has=20
    "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power <BR>these kind Info should =
not be=20
    sent<BR>during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF=20
    Radio<BR>configuration" is better.<BR>If keep them in one, which =
element=20
    will be mandatory in what kind message <BR>should be suggested by=20
    protocol.<BR>The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include =
radio ID,=20
    radio type,<BR>Tx power, Channel, country code and so on.<BR>For any =

    binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. <BR>The =
"WTP RF=20
    Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this =
way,<BR>AC could=20
    configure WTP's RF parameter<BR>and know current configuration on =
the WTP=20
    radio.<BR>If this way, current "11.9.18 . IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", =
"11.9.12.=20
    IEEE<BR>802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5.<BR>IEEE 802.11 Direct =
Sequence=20
    Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE<BR>802.11 related=20
    element.<BR>4) Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as "WTP Statistics" =
in the=20
    section<BR>4.4<BR>Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer =

    protocol, I think most<BR>the element in the "IEEE 802.11=20
    Statistics"<BR>could be put on the section 4.4, except the element =
like "RTS=20
    Success Count"<BR>and so on.<BR>For any binding, we use Wireless =
binding=20
    identifier to suggest them.<BR><BR>Any way, I thought many TLV will =
change=20
    their location as new CAPWAP will be <BR>divided into two=20
    parts.<BR><BR>Cheers<BR><BR>Richard=20
  =
(Shiyang)<BR><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTM=
L>

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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue 173 - message element
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I agree with Mike's assessment.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:09 PM
	To: capwap
	Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue 173 - message
element exceedframe length.
=09
=09
	I do not see why the CAPWAP transport fragmentation mechanism
can't be used to address this issue. I propose that we close it with no
updates to the draft, unless someone is willing to describe what changes
need to be made.=20
	=20
	Cheers,
	=20
	Mike


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2976" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D436532316-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
agree with Mike's assessment.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Michael Montemurro=20
  [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, =
September 23,=20
  2006 12:09 PM<BR><B>To:</B> capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Capwap] =
Proposed=20
  resolution to issue 173 - message element exceedframe=20
  length.<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>I do not see why the CAPWAP transport fragmentation mechanism =
can't be=20
  used to address this issue. I propose that we close it with no updates =
to the=20
  draft, unless someone is willing to describe what changes need to be =
made.=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Mike</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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I disagree with this change. The reason why a name is better is that the
ID may differ across WTPs, while representing the same "user group". For
instance, engineering folks may be set to VLAN 101 on one set of WTPs,
but 201 on others (based on geography). I believe that the use of the
name is a more scalable approach that your proposed change.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:01 PM
	To: capwap
	Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 140 - use of VLAN
name
=09
=09
	In section 4.4.8, I propose that we change VLAN name to VLAN
Identifier ( as described in IEEE 802.1D).
	=20
	Cheers,
	=20
	Mike


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<DIV><SPAN class=3D237220816-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
disagree with this change. The reason why a name is better is that the =
ID may=20
differ across WTPs, while representing the same "user group". For =
instance,=20
engineering folks may be set to VLAN 101 on one set of WTPs, but 201 on =
others=20
(based on geography). I believe that the use of the name is a more =
scalable=20
approach that your proposed change.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Michael Montemurro=20
  [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, =
September 23,=20
  2006 12:01 PM<BR><B>To:</B> capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Capwap] =
Proposed=20
  resolution to Issue 140 - use of VLAN name<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>In section 4.4.8, I propose that we change VLAN name to VLAN =
Identifier (=20
  as described in IEEE 802.1D).</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Mike</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to :One issue,
	please discuss: I suggest some change for "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11
	TxPower"
Thread-Index: AcbonWjbwgkBfGU+Ra6L0IboaXdPUwDI5b/Q
From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "Margaret Wasserman" <margaret@thingmagic.com>,
	"Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to :One issue,
	please discuss: I suggest some change for "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11
	TxPower"
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I disagree with changing the baseline from mW to dbm. I unfortunately am
not online and only have access to the 802.11-1999 standard with me, but
a quick glance at section 14.8.2.1.16 (dot11CurrentTxPowerLevel) uses a
value in mW. I would prefer that we remain consistent with the 802.11
standard.

Having said that, the IEEE 802.11 Tx Power section should include a
reference to the MIB variable.

Proposed new text:
from:
   Current Tx Power
      This attribute contains the transmit output power in mW.
to:
   Current Tx Power
      This attribute contains the transmit output power in mW, as
described
      in the dot11CurrentTxPowerLevel MIB variable.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 9:40 AM
> To: Dorothy Stanley
> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to :One 
> issue,please discuss: I suggest some change for "11.9.18. 
> IEEE 802.11 TxPower"
> 
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> This request is based on the assumption that the WTP's power 
> level will actually be set in dBm.  If that is true, why not 
> use dBm (or
> centi-dBm) as the unit for this attribute, instead of mW (or 0.1 mW)?
> 
> Margaret
> 
> On Oct 5, 2006, at 12:34 PM, Dorothy Stanley wrote:
> 
> > All,
> >
> > The proposed resolution to the 11.9.18 comment is: Accept the 
> > commenters suggestion, change
> >
> >
> >    From "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit 
> > output power in mW."
> >    to   "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit  
> > output power in 0.1mW."
> >
> >
> > Comments welcome,
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dorothy
> >
> > On 9/25/06, zhaoyujin 31390 <zhaoyujin@huawei.com> wrote: Section
> > 11.9.18 has following discripiton, I suggestion some change
> >
> >    From "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit 
> > output power in mW."
> >    to   "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit  
> > output power in 0.1mW."
> >
> > The reason is: normally WLAN will use dbm. The conversion 
> between dbm 
> > and mw can not satisfy this TLV requirement. If capwap 
> transimit one 
> > mw value, the device can't precise get corresponding dbm.
> >
> >   For example
> >          1 dbm<----->1.3mw  ----> 1mw
> >          2 dbm<----->1.6mw  ----> 2mw
> >          3 dbm<----->2.0mw  ----> 2mw
> >
> >   This time, if capwap transmits 2 mw, system doesn't know 
> it is 2dbm 
> > or 3 dbm.
> >
> > The following is suggestion:
> >   For example
> >          1 dbm<----->1.3mw  ----> 13mw
> >          2 dbm<-----> 1.6mw  ----> 16mw
> >          3 dbm<----->2.0mw  ----> 20mw
> >
> > Thanks
> > Michael
> >
> > >   The Tx power message element value is bi-directional.  When
> > sent by
> > >   the WTP, it contains the current power level of the radio in
> > >   question.  When sent by the AC, it contains the power level the
> > WTP
> > >   MUST adhere to.
> > >
> > >        0                   1                   2          
>          3
> > >        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
> > 9 0 1
> > >       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
> > +-+-+
> > >       |    Radio ID   |    Reserved   |        Current Tx  
> > Power       |
> > >       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
> > +-+-+
> > >
> > >   Type:  1041 for IEEE 802.11 Tx Power
> > >
> > >   Length:  4
> > >
> > >   Radio ID:  An 8-bit value representing the radio to configure.
> > >
> > >   Reserved:  MUST be set to zero
> > >
> > >   Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit output
> > power
> > >      in mW.
> >
> > This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from 
> > HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity 
> whose address 
> > is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any 
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> > _________________________________________________________________
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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Why? The CAPWAP Message Element header already includes a length. This
will cause the said message element to have two length fields.
=20
I disagree with the change request.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:05 PM
	To: capwap
	Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 144 - Need length
value forvendor-specific payload
=09
=09
	I propose to resolve this issue by accepting the recommendation
to add a length field to the vendor-specific element.
	=20
	Cheers,
	=20
	Mike


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<DIV><SPAN class=3D502132216-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Why?=20
The CAPWAP Message Element header already includes a length. This will =
cause the=20
said message element to have two length fields.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D502132216-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D502132216-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
disagree with the change request.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Michael Montemurro=20
  [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, =
September 23,=20
  2006 12:05 PM<BR><B>To:</B> capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Capwap] =
Proposed=20
  resolution to Issue 144 - Need length value forvendor-specific=20
  payload<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>I propose to resolve this issue by accepting the recommendation =
to add a=20
  length field to the vendor-specific element.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Mike</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issues 72, 73, 108, 181, and 190.
Thread-Index: AcbfQeKMfyUP0SjYRh6tcN8kscMZzgMexf4A
From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "Michael Montemurro" <montemurro.michael@gmail.com>,
	"capwap" <capwap@frascone.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issues 72, 73, 108, 181,
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Mike,
=20
I'm quite confused by this request. First, the WTP already sends back a
response message when it receives the request. Why can't we simply embed
the status code in that response message? I don't understand the need
for a new message.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:55 AM
	To: capwap
	Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issues 72, 73, 108,
181, and 190.
=09
=09
	These issues all have to do with the configuration process and
error handing of that process.=20
	=20
	I propose to resolve these comments by doing the following:
	1) Add a add a Configuration Status Acknowledgement Frame. The
WTP would send this frame back with a status code to indicate success or
failure of its ability to apply the configuration.
	=20
	2) The configuration update response could be modified to
include any message elements that could not be applied by the WTP.
	=20
	3) In the case of a configuration message that exceeds the MTU
between the WTP and the AC, the CAPWAP fragmentation mechanism would be
allow the message to be fragmented by the AC and reassembled by the WTP.
I don't think there needs to be any updates to CAPWAP to address this
issue.=20
	=20
	Cheers,
	=20
	Mike


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charset=3Dus-ascii">
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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D635110716-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Mike,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D635110716-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D635110716-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I'm=20
quite confused by this request. First, the WTP already sends back a =
response=20
message when it receives the request. Why can't we simply embed the =
status code=20
in that response message? I don't understand the need for a new=20
message.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Michael Montemurro=20
  [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, =
September 23,=20
  2006 11:55 AM<BR><B>To:</B> capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Capwap] =
Proposed=20
  resolution to issues 72, 73, 108, 181, and 190.<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>These issues all have to do with the configuration process and =
error=20
  handing of that process. </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>I propose to resolve these comments by doing the following:</DIV>
  <DIV>1) Add a add a Configuration Status Acknowledgement Frame. =
The&nbsp;WTP=20
  would send this frame back with a status code to indicate success or =
failure=20
  of its ability to apply the configuration.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>2) The configuration update response could be modified to include =
any=20
  message elements that could not be applied by the WTP.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>3) In the case of a configuration message that exceeds the MTU =
between=20
  the WTP and the AC, the CAPWAP fragmentation mechanism would be allow =
the=20
  message to be fragmented by the AC and reassembled by the WTP. I don't =
think=20
  there needs to be any updates to CAPWAP to address this issue. </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Mike</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 145 "Need additional
	detailfor how a STA session is created" /was:Re: Packet flows
	fornew STA session
Thread-Index: AcbkEoNvdSntQRedR8utBQA19CT1TQHsHtBQ
From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>,
	"Michael Montemurro" <montemurro.michael@gmail.com>
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Cc: Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya@ieee.org>, capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 145 "Need additional
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I agree.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:53 PM
	To: Michael Montemurro
	Cc: Behcet Sarikaya; capwap@frascone.com
	Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 145 "Need
additional detailfor how a STA session is created" /was:Re: Packet flows
fornew STA session
=09
=09
	All,
	=20
	Issue 145  is listed below:
	There is a lot of detail missing in CAPWAP describing
	how a STA session is created for both splitMAC and
	localMAC. It would be quite useful if someone would
	take figures 5 and 7 and add the detail.
	The proposed resolution to Issue 145 is:
	Close with no change to the text. Figures 5 and 7 are
	intended to provide an illustration of the division of
=09
	labor in the local and split-MAC cases, rather than
	a comprehensive description of session establishment.
	The lists of message elements are included in the text.
	Comments welcome,
	Thanks,
	Dorothy
	On 6/30/06, Michael Montemurro <montemurro.michael@gmail.com>
wrote:=20

		David,
		=20
		I created issue number 145 to track this issue.
		=20
		Cheers,
		=20
		Mike
	=09
		=20
	=09
		On 6/23/06, Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com >
wrote:=20

			Hi David,
			  Roaming with key caching and other new
developments is a work item for possible rechartering. I think the
present text is OK.=20
		=09
			Regards,
			=20
		=09
			--behcet
		=09
		=09
		=09
			----- Original Message ----
			From: David T. Perkins < dperkins@dsperkins.com
<mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com> >
			To: capwap@frascone.com
			Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 1:16:46 PM
			Subject: [Capwap] Packet flows for new STA
session=20
		=09
		=09
			HI,
		=09
			There is a lot of detail missing in CAPWAP
describing
			how a STA session is created for both splitMAC
and
			localMAC. It would be quite useful if someone
would
			take figures 5 and 7 and add the detail.=20
		=09
			Regards,
			/david t. perkins=20
		=09
=09
_________________________________________________________________
			To unsubscribe or modify your subscription
options, please visit:
=09
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
		=09
			Archives:
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			=20


=09
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options, please visit:
=09
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		=09
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		=09
		=09



=09
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D581155016-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
agree.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Dorothy Stanley=20
  [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 29, =
2006=20
  2:53 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Michael Montemurro<BR><B>Cc:</B> Behcet =
Sarikaya;=20
  capwap@frascone.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to =
Issue=20
  145 "Need additional detailfor how a STA session is created" /was:Re: =
Packet=20
  flows fornew STA session<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>All,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Issue 145&nbsp; is listed below:</DIV>
  <DIV><PRE><EM>There is a lot of detail missing in CAPWAP describing
how a STA session is created for both splitMAC and
localMAC. It would be quite useful if someone would
take figures 5 and 7 and add the detail.</EM><BR></PRE><PRE>The proposed =
resolution to Issue 145 is:</PRE><PRE>Close with no change to the text. =
Figures 5 and 7 are<BR>intended to provide an illustration of the =
division of
<BR>labor in the local and split-MAC cases, rather than<BR>a =
comprehensive description of session establishment.<BR>The lists of =
message elements are included in the text.</PRE><PRE>Comments =
welcome,</PRE><PRE>Thanks,</PRE><PRE>Dorothy</PRE></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 6/30/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Michael=20
  Montemurro</B> &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com">montemurro.michael@gmail.com=
</A>&gt;=20
  wrote:</SPAN>=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
#ccc 1px solid">
    <DIV>David,</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>I created <SPAN class=3Dst id=3Dst name=3D"st">issue</SPAN> =
number <SPAN=20
    class=3Dst id=3Dst name=3D"st">145</SPAN> to track this <SPAN =
class=3Dst id=3Dst=20
    name=3D"st">issue</SPAN>.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Mike<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3De id=3Dq_10c255cb217e9cac_1>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 6/23/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Behcet=20
    Sarikaya</B> &lt;<A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com"=20
    target=3D_blank>behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com </A>&gt; wrote:</SPAN>=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
#ccc 1px solid">
      <DIV>
      <DIV>
      <DIV=20
      style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, =
times, serif">
      <DIV=20
      style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman,new =
york,times,serif">Hi=20
      David,<BR>&nbsp; Roaming with key caching and other new =
developments is a=20
      work item for possible rechartering. I think the present text is =
OK.=20
      <BR><BR>Regards,<BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN><BR>--behcet</SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN><BR><BR>
      <DIV=20
      style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman,new =
york,times,serif">-----=20
      Original Message ----<BR>From: David T. Perkins &lt;<A=20
      onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com" target=3D_blank>=20
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2006=20
      1:16:46 PM<BR>Subject: [Capwap] Packet flows for new STA session =
<BR><BR>
      <DIV>HI,<BR><BR>There is a lot of detail missing in CAPWAP=20
      describing<BR>how a STA session is created for both splitMAC=20
      and<BR>localMAC. It would be quite useful if someone would<BR>take =
figures=20
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      =
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to
	Issue214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames
Thread-Index: AcbieUNFx2Heibn8RoyIXIp63oas0QAIb/jgAkkkjMA=
From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "Cheng Hong" <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>,
	"Michael Montemurro" <montemurro.michael@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to
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Even in the case of EDCA, there is no guarantees that the STA can send
an 802.1X frame with a high priority UP field. This is especially true
if the WTP requires authorization prior to making use of the QoS class.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]=20
	Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:20 PM
	To: Michael Montemurro
	Cc: capwap
	Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to
Issue214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames
=09
=09
	Hi Mike,
	=20
	In the HCCA case, the TID value is in the range of 8 to 15, and
according to clause 6.1.1.1.1 point b:
	=20
	"b) QoS subtypes, in which case the QAP shall infer the UP value
from the TID in the QoS Control field
	directly for TID values between 0 and 7. For TID values between
8 and 15, the QAP shall extract the
	UP value in the UP subfield of the TS Info field in the
associated TSPEC or from the UP field in the
	associated TCLAS (traffic classification) element, as
applicable."
	=20
	It seems that the WTP needs to do much more to obtain the actual
UP value. In case the TSPEC or TCLAS elemets are located at the AC, how
would the WTP get the UP value in the HCCA case?
	=20
	Or is there any place that prevents sending EAPOL frames using
HCCA? If that is the case, it is not a problem. But, then again, all the
data traffic sent using HCCA will have difficulty to obtain the correct
priority in CAPWAP delivery.
	=20
	cheers
	=20
	Cheng Hong
	=20
	=20
	=20


________________________________

		From: Michael Montemurro
[mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20
		Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 2:23 AM
		To: Cheng Hong
		Cc: capwap
		Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed
resolution to Issue 214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames
	=09
	=09
		Cheng,
		=20
		In the HCCA case, the TID case should work as well. I
don't see why it wouldn't.
		=20
		Cheers,
		=20
		Mike
	=09
		=20
		On 9/26/06, Cheng Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>
wrote:=20

			Hi Mike,=20
			=20
			It seems OK to use TID in the EDCA case. If the
HCCA is used, would the TID still be meaningful in mapping the priority?
(Haven't check the 802.11 standards in detail).=20
			=20
			cheers
			=20
			Cheng Hong=20


________________________________

				From: Michael Montemurro
[mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com ]=20
				Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006
12:24 AM=20
			=09
				To: Cheng Hong
				Cc: zhaoyujin 31390; capwap
				Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.:
Proposed resolution to Issue 214 -Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames
			=09

				=20
			=09
				Cheng,
				=20
				Thanks for you input.
				=20
				Also, that's a good question. In my
opinion, the CAPWAP priority should be based on the TID(UP). Which means
yes, the WTP would need to read into the QoS control field.
				=20
				Cheers,
				=20
				Mike
				=20
				On 9/25/06, Cheng Hong
<Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com > wrote:=20

				Hi Mike,
				=20
				In this case, I tend to agree with the
other Michael on the first point.=20
				=20
				However, on the mapping 802.11e priority
back to CAPWAP priority, I am not really sure how that is done. Is it
based on 802.11e AC or TID (UP)? For later case, does it mean the WTP
need to read into the QoS Control Field?=20
				=20
				cheers
				=20
				Cheng Hong
				=20
				=20

________________________________

				From: Michael Montemurro
[mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com ]=20
				Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:17
AM
				To: Cheng Hong
				Cc: zhaoyujin 31390; capwap=20
			=09
				Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.:
Proposed resolution to Issue 214 -Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames
			=09

				=20
			=09
				Cheng Hong,
				=20
				In the CAPWAP draft, both wireless data
and management frames are treated as CAPWAP data frames. Given that, all
CAPWAP data traffic would need to go to the same logical instance of the
AC.
				=20
				Cheers,
				=20
				Mike


				=20
				On 9/24/06, Cheng Hong
<Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com > wrote:=20

				Hi Michael & Michael,
				=20
				Sorry if the issue has already been
discussed before. Just thinking if the WTP does not differentiate 802.1X
frames from normal data frames, would it be possible that the 802.1X
frames being forwarded to a different AC instance than the one
processing the control/management frames? (in case different ACs are
used to process the control and data channel) Is this acceptable?
				=20
				cheers
				=20
				Cheng Hong
				=20
				=20
				=20


________________________________

				From: Michael Montemurro
[mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20
				Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:18 AM
				To: zhaoyujin 31390
				Cc: capwap
				Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.:
Proposed resolution to Issue 214 -Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames=20
			=09
				=20
			=09
				Michael,
				=20
				Thanks. Is anybody else opinionated on
this feature.=20
				=20
				Cheers,
				=20
				Mike
			=09
				=20
				On 9/23/06, zhaoyujin 31390
<zhaoyujin@huawei.com > wrote:=20

				Firstly, I have some doubt one this
suggestion.
			=09
				1. If CAPWAP difines like this, AP
device must decode the payload frames of 802.11 frames.
				2. Another problem, the 802.1x priority
should be implement by 802.11e. When station sends 802.11 data frames,
it can set 802.11e priority. AP should transfer 802.11e to actual CAPWAP
packet priority.
			=09
				So that I think CAPWAP does not need
consider the priority of 802.11 data frames payload.=20
			=09
				Thanks
				Michael
			=09
			=09
			=09
				>Practically speaking, IEEE 802.1X
frames should be transmitted at the same priority as >IEEE 802.11
Management frames.
				>
				>I will update Section 11.5, rename
Quality of Service for IEEE 802.11 Control Messages >to "Quality
				>of Service for IEEE 802.11 control
messages and IEEE 802.1X EAPoL frames" and add text to >indicate that
IEEE 802.1X frames are sent at a higher priority.
				>=20
				>Cheers,
				>
				>Mike
			=09
			=09
				This e-mail and attachments contain
confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the
person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the
information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to,
total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons
other than the intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this
e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email=20
				immediately and delete it!
			=09
				=20

				Practically speaking, IEEE 802.1X frames
should be transmitted at the same priority as IEEE 802.11 Management
frames.=20
				=20
				I will update Section 11.5, rename
Quality of Service for IEEE 802.11 Control Messages to "Quality
				of Service for IEEE 802.11 control
messages and IEEE 802.1X EAPoL frames" and add text to indicate that
IEEE 802.1X frames are sent at a higher priority.
				=20
				Cheers,
				=20
				Mike

=09
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				To unsubscribe or modify your
subscription options, please visit:
=09
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
			=09
				Archives:
http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20
			=09
			=09
			=09






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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D344502516-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Even=20
in the case of EDCA, there is no guarantees that the STA can send an =
802.1X=20
frame with a high priority UP field. This is especially true if the WTP =
requires=20
authorization prior to making use of the QoS class.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Cheng Hong=20
  [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, =
September 27,=20
  2006 6:20 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Michael Montemurro<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed =
resolution=20
  to Issue214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D774221101-28092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Hi=20
  Mike,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  class=3D774221101-28092006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D774221101-28092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>In=20
  the HCCA case, the TID value is in the range of 8 to 15, and according =
to=20
  clause 6.1.1.1.1 point b:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  class=3D774221101-28092006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><SPAN=20
  class=3D774221101-28092006><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff><SPAN class=3D774221101-28092006>"</SPAN>b) QoS =
subtypes, in which=20
  case the QAP shall infer the UP value from the TID in the QoS Control=20
  field</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>directly for=20
  TID values between 0 and 7. For TID values between 8 and 15, the QAP =
shall=20
  extract the</FONT><FONT face=3DArial></DIV></FONT>
  <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>UP value in=20
  the UP subfield of the TS Info field in the associated TSPEC or from =
the UP=20
  field in the</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff>associated TCLAS (traffic classification) element, as=20
  applicable.<SPAN =
class=3D774221101-28092006>"</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
  face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D774221101-28092006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs=
p;</DIV>
  <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D774221101-28092006>It seems that the WTP needs to do much more =
to obtain=20
  the actual UP value. In case the TSPEC or TCLAS elemets are located at =
the AC,=20
  how would the WTP get the UP value in the HCCA =
case?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
  face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D774221101-28092006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs=
p;</DIV>
  <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
  face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D774221101-28092006>Or is there any place that prevents sending =
EAPOL=20
  frames using HCCA? If that is the case, it is not a problem. But, then =
again,=20
  all the data traffic sent using HCCA will have difficulty to obtain =
the=20
  correct priority in CAPWAP=20
  delivery.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
  face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D774221101-28092006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs=
p;</DIV>
  <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D774221101-28092006>cheers</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
  face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D774221101-28092006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs=
p;</DIV>
  <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D774221101-28092006>Cheng Hong</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
  face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D774221101-28092006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs=
p;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D774221101-28092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft>
    <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
    <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Michael Montemurro=20
    [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, =
September=20
    28, 2006 2:23 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Cheng Hong<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
    capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed=20
    resolution to Issue 214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X=20
    frames<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV>Cheng,</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>In the HCCA case, the TID case should work as well. I don't see =
why it=20
    wouldn't.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Mike<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 9/26/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Cheng=20
    Hong</B> &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com">Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com</=
A>&gt;=20
    wrote:</SPAN>=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
#ccc 1px solid">
      <DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Hi Mike,=20
      </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>It seems OK =
to use TID in=20
      the EDCA case. If the HCCA is used, would the TID still be =
meaningful in=20
      mapping the priority? (Haven't check the 802.11 standards in =
detail).=20
      </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Cheng Hong=20
      </FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
      <BLOCKQUOTE=20
      style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
        <HR>
        <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN class=3Dq><B>From:</B> =
Michael Montemurro=20
        [mailto:<A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
        href=3D"mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com"=20
        target=3D_blank>montemurro.michael@gmail.com </A>] =
<BR></SPAN><B>Sent:</B>=20
        Wednesday, September 27, 2006 12:24 AM=20
        <DIV><SPAN class=3De id=3Dq_10ded02f9471b143_3><BR><B>To:</B> =
Cheng=20
        Hong<BR><B>Cc:</B> zhaoyujin 31390; capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
Re:=20
        [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue 214=20
        -Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X=20
        frames<BR></SPAN></DIV></FONT><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN class=3De id=3Dq_10ded02f9471b143_5>
        <DIV></DIV>
        <DIV>Cheng,</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>Thanks for you input.</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>Also, that's a good question. In my opinion, the CAPWAP =
priority=20
        should be based on the TID(UP).&nbsp;Which means yes, the WTP =
would need=20
        to read into the QoS control field.</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>Mike<BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 9/25/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Cheng=20
        Hong</B> &lt;<A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
        href=3D"mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com"=20
        target=3D_blank>Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com </A>&gt; =
wrote:</SPAN>=20
        <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
        style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
          <DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Hi=20
          Mike,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>In this =
case, I tend=20
          to agree with the other Michael on the first point.=20
          </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>However, on the=20
          mapping 802.11e&nbsp;priority back to CAPWAP priority, I am =
not really=20
          sure how that is done. Is it based on 802.11e AC or TID (UP)? =
For=20
          later case, does it mean the WTP need to read into the QoS =
Control=20
          Field? </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2>cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Cheng=20
          Hong</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <BLOCKQUOTE=20
          style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
#0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
            <DIV lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
            <HR>
            <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN><B>From:</B> Michael =
Montemurro=20
            [mailto:<A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
            href=3D"mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com"=20
            target=3D_blank>montemurro.michael@gmail.com </A>]=20
            <BR></SPAN><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:17=20
            AM<BR><B>To:</B> Cheng Hong<BR><B>Cc:</B> zhaoyujin 31390; =
capwap=20
            <DIV><SPAN><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Capwap] This is not =
need.:=20
            Proposed resolution to Issue 214 -Prioritization of IEEE =
802.1X=20
            frames<BR></SPAN></DIV></FONT><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV><SPAN>
            <DIV></DIV>
            <DIV>Cheng Hong,</DIV>
            <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV>In the CAPWAP draft, both wireless data and management =
frames=20
            are treated as CAPWAP data frames.&nbsp;Given that, =
all&nbsp;CAPWAP=20
            data traffic would need to go to the same logical instance =
of the=20
            AC.</DIV>
            <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV>Mike</DIV>
            <DIV><BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 9/24/06, <B=20
            class=3Dgmail_sendername>Cheng Hong</B> &lt;<A=20
            onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
            href=3D"mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com"=20
            target=3D_blank>Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com </A>&gt; =
wrote:</SPAN>=20
            <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
            style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
              <DIV>
              <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Hi =
Michael &amp;=20
              Michael,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
              <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
              size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
              <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Sorry if the=20
              issue has already been discussed before. Just thinking if =
the WTP=20
              does not differentiate 802.1X frames from normal data =
frames,=20
              would it be possible that the 802.1X frames being =
forwarded to a=20
              different AC instance than the one processing the=20
              control/management frames? (in case different ACs are used =
to=20
              process the control and data channel) Is this=20
              acceptable?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
              <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
              size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
              <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
              size=3D2>cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
              <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
              size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
              <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Cheng=20
              Hong</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
              <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
              size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
              <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
              size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
              <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
              size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
              <BLOCKQUOTE=20
              style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
#0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
                <DIV lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
                <HR>
                <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Michael =
Montemurro=20
                [mailto:<A=20
                onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" =

                href=3D"mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com"=20
                target=3D_blank>montemurro.michael@gmail.com</A>] =
<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
                Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:18 AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
zhaoyujin=20
                31390<BR><B>Cc:</B> capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[Capwap] This=20
                is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue 214 =
-Prioritization=20
                of IEEE 802.1X frames <BR></FONT><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
                <DIV><SPAN>
                <DIV></DIV>
                <DIV>Michael,</DIV>
                <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
                <DIV>Thanks. Is anybody else opinionated on this =
feature. </DIV>
                <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
                <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
                <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
                <DIV>Mike<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
                <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 9/23/06, <B=20
                class=3Dgmail_sendername>zhaoyujin 31390</B> &lt;<A=20
                onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" =

                href=3D"mailto:zhaoyujin@huawei.com"=20
                target=3D_blank>zhaoyujin@huawei.com </A>&gt; =
wrote:</SPAN>=20
                <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
                style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
                  <DIV style=3D"DIRECTION: ltr">Firstly, I have some =
doubt one=20
                  this suggestion.<BR><BR>1. If CAPWAP difines like =
this, AP=20
                  device must decode the payload frames of 802.11 =
frames.<BR>2.=20
                  Another problem, the 802.1x priority should be =
implement by=20
                  802.11e. When station sends 802.11 data frames, it can =
set=20
                  802.11e priority. AP should transfer 802.11e to actual =
CAPWAP=20
                  packet priority.<BR><BR>So that I think CAPWAP does =
not need=20
                  consider the priority of 802.11 data frames payload.=20
                  =
<BR><BR>Thanks<BR>Michael<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt;Practically=20
                  speaking, IEEE 802.1X frames should be transmitted at =
the same=20
                  priority as &gt;IEEE 802.11 Management=20
                  frames.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I will update Section 11.5, =
rename=20
                  Quality of Service for IEEE 802.11 Control Messages =
&gt;to=20
                  "Quality<BR>&gt;of Service for IEEE 802.11 control =
messages=20
                  and IEEE 802.1X EAPoL frames" and add text to =
&gt;indicate=20
                  that IEEE 802.1X frames are sent at a higher =
priority.<BR>&gt;=20
                  <BR>&gt;Cheers,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Mike<BR><BR><BR>This =
e-mail and=20
                  attachments contain confidential information from =
HUAWEI,=20
                  which is intended only for the person or entity whose =
address=20
                  is listed above. Any use of the information contained =
herein=20
                  in any way (including, but not limited to, total or =
partial=20
                  disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons =
other=20
                  than the intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you =
receive=20
                  this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by =
phone or=20
                  email <BR>immediately and delete =
it!<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
                  <DIV>Practically speaking, IEEE 802.1X frames should =
be=20
                  transmitted at the same priority as IEEE 802.11 =
Management=20
                  frames. </DIV>
                  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
                  <DIV>I will update Section 11.5, rename Quality of =
Service for=20
                  IEEE 802.11 Control Messages to "Quality<BR>of Service =
for=20
                  IEEE 802.11 control messages and IEEE 802.1X EAPoL =
frames" and=20
                  add text to indicate that IEEE 802.1X frames are sent =
at a=20
                  higher priority.</DIV>
                  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
                  <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
                  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
                  =
<DIV>Mike</DIV><BR>______________________________________________________=
___________<BR>To=20
                  unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, =
please=20
                  visit:<BR><A=20
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top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
                  =
href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap"=20
                  =
target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</A><BR>=
<BR>Archives:=20
                  <A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
                  href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap"=20
                  =
target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20
                  =
</A><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></=
BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><=
BR></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></=
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 221 - Fix figure 5:
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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Mike,
=20
The issue is more than simply the figure, and should also include the
text that follows the two figures out mention. At one point the Add
Station had the "AKM Only" bit, but this has now moved to the  "IEEE
802.11 Station Session Key" section. I don't believe that the "Clear
Text" should be removed per se, but instead that both the figure and the
text be representative of the recent changes in the protocol.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:18 AM
	To: capwap
	Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 221 - Fix figure
5: remove"(clear text)"
=09
=09
	Both figure 5 and figure 7 will to be updated to be consistent
with the add mobile message element definition.
	=20
	Cheers,
	=20
	Mike


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size=3D2>Mike,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D497175315-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D497175315-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>The=20
issue is more than simply the figure, and should also include the text =
that=20
follows the two figures out mention. At one point the Add Station had =
the "AKM=20
Only" bit, but this has now moved to the &nbsp;"IEEE 802.11 Station =
Session=20
Key"&nbsp;section. I don't believe that the "Clear Text" should be =
removed per=20
se, but instead that both the figure and the text be representative of =
the=20
recent changes in the protocol.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Michael Montemurro=20
  [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, =
September 23,=20
  2006 11:18 AM<BR><B>To:</B> capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Capwap] =
Proposed=20
  resolution to Issue 221 - Fix figure 5: remove"(clear=20
  text)"<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Both figure 5 and figure 7 will to be updated to be consistent =
with the=20
  add mobile message element definition.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Mike</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Editorial - WTP Event Request
Thread-Index: AcbkBoQ052ehncIxTPK7J3IBXAzXnQHuroJQ
From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>,
	"sujay" <sujayg@huawei.com>,
	"Saravanan Govindan" <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>
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Works for me.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 1:28 PM
	To: sujay; Saravanan Govindan
	Cc: capwap@frascone.com
	Subject: Re: [Capwap] Editorial - WTP Event Request
=09
=09
	All,
	=20
	Below is the proposed resolution to issue 225 (also copied
below).
	=20
	Comments welcome.
	=20
	Dorothy
	=20
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------
	Proposed resolution:
	=20
	Insert the following paragraph at the end of section 4.3 "CAPWAP
Control Messages"
	=20
	"CAPWAP control messages sent from the WTP to the AC indicate
that
	the WTP is operational, providing an implicit keep-alive=20
	mechanism for the WTP. The Echo Request/Echo Response Control
channel=20
	management messages provide an explicit keep-alive mechanism
when other CAPWAP
	control messages are not exchanged."
	=20
	Also - I notice that the message types in 4.3 are not the same
as the
	message sections. Propose to update the 4.3 list to match the
existing text sections:
	changeFirmware Management to Device Management, add
	missing Join, Control Channel Management bullet items.
	=20
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------
	Issue 225:
	=20
	=20
	Hi Scott,
=09
	I see your point. I agree that any control message serves the
purpose of
	keep alive for the WTP.
=09
	In this case, I suggest the same text in Section 4.3 (CAPWAP
Control
	Messages) with slight modification;
=09
	"The exchange of a CAPWAP control message serves as an implicit
keep
	alive mechanism for the WTP. The arrival of a CAPWAP control
message at
	the AC indicates the WTP is operational. In cases where regular
CAPWAP
	control messages are not exchanged, explicit keep alive is used
(see
	Section 7)."
=09
	Comments?
=09
	Saravanan
	From: Scott G Kelly [mailto:scott [at] hyperthought.com] Sent:
Monday, July 03, 2006 9:20 PM To: Saravanan Govindan Cc: capwap Subject:
Re: [Capwap] Editorial - WTP Event Request Hi Saravanan, I thought there
was general agreement that if *any* authenticated control traffic (not
just an event request) is observed during the echo interval, this is
implicit proof of liveness, and no echo request is required for that
interval. Having text like what's suggested below (that only references
the event request) might lead people to incorrectly conclude that only
an event request can obviate the need for an echo exchange. Why should
we have text which confers this special status only on the event
request, rather than on all/any authenticated control channel traffic?
Scott Saravanan Govindan wrote: > All, > > > > I would like to suggest
an editorial update to Section 9.5 (WTP Event > Request). > > > > This
is based on earlier discussions of how WTP Event Request serves as > an
implicit keep alive mechanism for the WTP. I believe this observation >
can be made explicit in this section. > > > > I suggest the following
after the 1^st paragraph of Section 9.5; > > > > "The exchange of WTP
Event Request serves as an implicit keep alive > mechanism for the WTP.
The arrival of a WTP Event Request message at the > AC indicates the WTP
is operational. In cases where WTP Event Request is > not exchanged,
explicit keep alive is used (see Section 7)." >=20
	=20

	On 9/25/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com> wrote:=20

		I have created issue 225 to track this request.
		=20

		Pat Calhoun
		CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
		Cisco Systems

		=20


________________________________

			From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)=20
			Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 10:36 AM
			To: sujay; Saravanan Govindan;
capwap@frascone.com
			Subject: Re: [Capwap] Editorial - WTP Event
Request
		=09
			=20
			I believe the quoted text is the agreed upon
text.
			=20

			Pat Calhoun
			CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
			Cisco Systems

			=20


________________________________

				From: sujay [mailto:sujayg@huawei.com]=20
				Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 11:18 PM=20
				To: 'Saravanan Govindan';
capwap@frascone.com
				Subject: Re: [Capwap] Editorial - WTP
Event Request=20
			=09
				=20
				Saravanan,
				=20
				<snip>=20
				"The exchange of a CAPWAP control
message serves as an implicit keep
				alive mechanism for the WTP. The arrival
of a CAPWAP control message at=20
				the AC indicates the WTP is operational.
In cases where regular CAPWAP
				control messages are not exchanged,
explicit keep alive is used (see
				Section 7)."<snip/>=20
				=20
				As the understanding is, arrival of
*any* authenticated control message obviates
				the need for an 'echo request' message,
to keep up the neighbour as up.
				 I wouldn't prefer the last
statement..viz..
				"In cases where regular CAPWAP control
messages are not exchanged, explicit keep alive is used (see
				Section 7)."
				This kind of sounds making the keep
alive and control message usage mutually exclusive. Could we put
				more simpler, " CAPWAP control messages
MAY/SHOULD  be treated equivalent to an Echo request message=20
				received(See Section 7)" ,
				Again noting; WTP event request message
is just one of those possible control messages.
				Regds,
				Sujay G
			=09
				My Location;
=09
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=3D14.626109,76.959229&spn=3D4.724852,7.525=
085
&t=3Dh&hl=3Den
			=09
			=09
			=09
				This e-mail and attachments contain
confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the
person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the
information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to,
total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons
other than the intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this
e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately
and delete it!=20
			=09
				=20

________________________________

				From: Saravanan Govindan
[mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com ]=20
				Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 8:54 AM
				To: capwap@frascone.com
				Subject: [Capwap] Editorial - WTP Event
Request=20
			=09
				=20

				All,

				=20

				This is a follow-up on an earlier
thread;

				=20

=09
http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap/msg03208.html=20

				=20

				Is the proposal ok for the next draft?=20

				=20

				Cheers,

			=09
				Saravanan


=09
_________________________________________________________________
		To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options,
please visit:
		http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=20
	=09
		Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
	=09
	=09



------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3FC7779D
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	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2976" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D229433716-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Works=20
for me.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Dorothy Stanley=20
  [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 29, =
2006=20
  1:28 PM<BR><B>To:</B> sujay; Saravanan Govindan<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  capwap@frascone.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Capwap] Editorial - WTP =
Event=20
  Request<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>All,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Below is&nbsp;the proposed&nbsp;resolution to issue 225 (also =
copied=20
  below).</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Comments welcome.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Dorothy</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  =
<DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------<BR>Proposed=20
  resolution:</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Insert the following paragraph at the end of section 4.3 "CAPWAP =
Control=20
  Messages"</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>"CAPWAP control messages sent from the WTP to the AC indicate =
that</DIV>
  <DIV>the WTP is operational, providing&nbsp;an implicit keep-alive=20
  <BR>mechanism for the WTP.&nbsp;The Echo Request/Echo Response Control =
channel=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV>management messages provide an explicit keep-alive mechanism when =

  other&nbsp;CAPWAP<BR>control messages are not =
exchanged."<BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Also - I notice that the message types in =
4.3&nbsp;are not=20
  the same as the</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>message sections.&nbsp;Propose to update&nbsp;the=20
  4.3&nbsp;list to match the existing text sections:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>changeFirmware Management to Device Management,=20
  add</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>missing Join, Control Channel Management bullet=20
  items.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT=20
  =
size=3D2>----------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Issue 225:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;<PRE>&nbsp;<PRE>Hi Scott,

I see your point. I agree that any control message serves the purpose of
keep alive for the WTP.

In this case, I suggest the same text in Section 4.3 (CAPWAP Control
Messages) with slight modification;

"The exchange of a CAPWAP control message serves as an implicit keep
alive mechanism for the WTP. The arrival of a CAPWAP control message at
the AC indicates the WTP is operational. In cases where regular CAPWAP
control messages are not exchanged, explicit keep alive is used (see
Section 7)."

Comments?

Saravanan</PRE>From: Scott G Kelly [mailto:<A =
href=3D"mailto:scott">scott</A> [at] <A =
href=3D"http://hyperthought.com">hyperthought.com</A>]=20
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 9:20 PM
To: Saravanan Govindan
Cc: capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Editorial - WTP Event Request

Hi Saravanan,

I thought there was general agreement that if *any* authenticated=20
control traffic (not just an event request) is observed during the echo=20
interval, this is implicit proof of liveness, and no echo request is=20
required for that interval. Having text like what's suggested below=20
(that only references the event request) might lead people to=20
incorrectly conclude that only an event request can obviate the need for

an echo exchange.

Why should we have text which confers this special status only on the=20
event request, rather than on all/any authenticated control channel
traffic?

Scott

Saravanan Govindan wrote:
&gt; All,
&gt;=20
&gt; =20
&gt;=20
&gt; I would like to suggest an editorial update to Section 9.5 (WTP =
Event=20
&gt; Request).
&gt;=20
&gt; =20
&gt;=20
&gt; This is based on earlier discussions of how WTP Event Request =
serves
as=20
&gt; an implicit keep alive mechanism for the WTP. I believe this
observation=20
&gt; can be made explicit in this section.
&gt;=20
&gt; =20
&gt;=20
&gt; I suggest the following after the 1^st paragraph of Section 9.5;
&gt;=20
&gt; =20
&gt;=20
&gt; "The exchange of WTP Event Request serves as an implicit keep alive =

&gt; mechanism for the WTP. The arrival of a WTP Event Request message =
at
the=20
&gt; AC indicates the WTP is operational. In cases where WTP Event =
Request
is=20
&gt; not exchanged, explicit keep alive is used (see Section 7)."
&gt; </PRE><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE></FONT></DIV><BR>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 9/25/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Pat Calhoun=20
  (pacalhou)</B> &lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com">pcalhoun@cisco.com</A>&gt; =
wrote:</SPAN>=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
#ccc 1px solid">
    <DIV lang=3DEN-US vlink=3D"purple" link=3D"blue">
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I have =
created issue <SPAN=20
    class=3Dst id=3Dst name=3D"st">225</SPAN> to track this=20
    request.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless =
Networking Business=20
    Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</FONT></P>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
      <HR>
      <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)=20
      <BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 28, 2006 10:36 AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
sujay;=20
      Saravanan Govindan; <A=20
      onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com"=20
      target=3D_blank>capwap@frascone.com</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[Capwap]=20
      Editorial - WTP Event Request<BR></FONT><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I believe =
the quoted text=20
      is the agreed upon text.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless =
Networking=20
      Business Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</FONT></P>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
      <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
      style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
        <HR>
        <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> sujay [mailto:<A=20
        onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
        href=3D"mailto:sujayg@huawei.com" =
target=3D_blank>sujayg@huawei.com</A>]=20
        <BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 27, 2006 11:18 PM <BR><B>To:</B> =

        'Saravanan Govindan'; <A=20
        onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
        href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com"=20
        target=3D_blank>capwap@frascone.com</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[Capwap]=20
        Editorial - WTP Event Request <BR></FONT><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV></DIV>
        <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN><FONT=20
size=3D2>Saravanan,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN><FONT=20
        size=3D2>&lt;snip&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT=20
        size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2>"The=20
        exchange of a CAPWAP control message serves as an implicit =
keep<BR>alive=20
        mechanism for the WTP. The arrival of a CAPWAP control message =
at=20
        <BR>the AC indicates the WTP is operational. In cases where =
regular=20
        CAPWAP<BR>control messages are not exchanged, explicit keep =
alive is=20
        used (see<BR>Section 7)."</FONT><SPAN><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
        size=3D2>&lt;snip/&gt; </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN><SPAN><FONT=20
        size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=3D2>As the =
understanding=20
        is, arrival of *any* authenticated control message=20
        obviates</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=3D2>the need =
for an 'echo=20
        request' message, to keep up the neighbour as=20
        up.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;I =
wouldn't prefer=20
        the last statement..viz..</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=3D2>"In cases =
where regular=20
        CAPWAP control messages are not exchanged, explicit keep alive =
is used=20
        (see<BR>Section 7)."</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=3D2>This kind =
of sounds=20
        making the keep alive and control message usage mutually =
exclusive.=20
        Could we put</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=3D2>more =
simpler, " CAPWAP=20
        control messages MAY/SHOULD &nbsp;be treated equivalent to an =
Echo=20
        request message </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN><SPAN><FONT =
size=3D2>received(See Section=20
        7)" ,</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=3D2>Again =
noting; WTP event=20
        request message is just one of those&nbsp;possible control=20
        messages.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></DIV><PRE><FONT =
size=3D2>Regds,<BR>Sujay G<BR>
My Location;<BR><A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" =
href=3D"http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=3D14.626109,76.959229&amp;spn=3D4.=
724852,7.525085&amp;t=3Dh&amp;hl=3Den" =
target=3D_blank>http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=3D14.626109,76.959229&amp;=
spn=3D4.724852,7.525085&amp;t=3Dh&amp;hl=3Den
</A><BR><BR><BR>This e-mail and attachments contain confidential =
information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity =
whose address is listed above. Any use of the information contained =
herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial =
disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the =
intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in =
error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete =
it!=20
</FONT></PRE>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
        <DIV lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
        <HR>
        <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Saravanan Govindan =
[mailto:<A=20
        onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
        href=3D"mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com"=20
        target=3D_blank>Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com </A>] =
<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
        Monday, August 28, 2006 8:54 AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A=20
        onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
        href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com"=20
        target=3D_blank>capwap@frascone.com</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> =
[Capwap]=20
        Editorial - WTP Event Request <BR></FONT><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV></DIV>
        <DIV>
        <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
        style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">All,</SPAN></FONT></P>
        <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
        style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
        <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
        style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This is a =
follow-up on an=20
        earlier thread;</SPAN></FONT></P>
        <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
        style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
        <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
        style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><A=20
        onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
        =
href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap/msg03208.html"=20
        =
target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap/msg03208.html =

        </A></SPAN></FONT></P>
        <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
        style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
        <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
        style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Is the proposal ok =
for the=20
        next draft? </SPAN></FONT></P>
        <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
        style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
        <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
        style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Cheers,</SPAN></FONT></P>
        <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
        style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><BR>Saravanan</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></D=
IV><BR>_________________________________________________________________<=
BR>To=20
    unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<BR><A =

    onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap"=20
    target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=20
    </A><BR><BR>Archives: <A=20
    onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
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LOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 163 "WTP
	Descriptorinformation is not required at Join time" /was Re:
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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I feel very strongly that the AC should not be maintainin significant
state for the WTP during the discovery phase. So this message element
must be included in the join, regardless of whether the discovery was
made or not.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:41 PM
	To: Michael Montemurro
	Cc: capwap@frascone.com
	Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 163 "WTP
Descriptorinformation is not required at Join time" /was Re: Acommentary
on CAPWAP-01 operations
=09
=09
	All,
	=20
	Issue 163 "WTP Descriptor information is not required at Join
time"  is listed below:

	14) The WTP Descriptor information is not required at Join time.
=09
	<PRC> Well, as far as I can tell, I think there's value in
knowing
	whether the WTP can even be supported by the AC. So the more
info is=20
	provided by the WTP, the better the AC can determine whether it
should
	just ignore the WTP or not. This could be done because it knows
that the
	firmware running on the WTP is not compatible, and it has no new
	firmware to download.
	=20
	The proposed resolution to Issue 163 is:
	=20
	Close with no change to the draft. The WTP descriptor element is
included
	in the optional Discover Request message and the Join Request to
	indicate the WTP info to the AC. If the Discover Request is not
sent, then
	the Join Request is the first message in which the AC receives
this information.
	=20
	Comments welcome.
	=20
	Thanks,
	=20
	Dorothy
	=20
	On 6/30/06, Michael Montemurro <montemurro.michael@gmail.com>
wrote:=20

		David, Pat,
		=20
		I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points in
David's email. Happy hunting!
		=20
		Mike
	=09
		=20
	=09
		On 6/27/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com >
wrote:=20

			Going through David's lengthy document, he has
raised an interesting
			number of points that I believe require issues
to be created. At one=20
			point I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in order
to be brief, and
			introducing my own numbering scheme.
		=09
			1) Can message elements be in any order? (I
believe they should be)
		=09
			<PRC> Yes, and I suspect we need to include text
to make it more=20
			obvious.
		=09
		=09
			2) Are all specified message elements required?
(The obvious answer is
			"yes", but this document doesn't discuss
versioning. For example, what
			if in a new version of CAPWAP an additional
message element was to be=20
			added. Would a new message type be created and
the additional message
			element added to it, or the existing type
reused?)
		=09
			<PRC> This is a great question, and one that
does need to be addressed
			in the spec. In the Diameter protocol we dealt
with this issue by=20
			including a "Mandatory to implement" bit. If any
AVP was received, whose
			bit was set, yet was not recognized, then the
request had to be
			rejected.
		=09
			<PRC> We could consider something similar here,
but I believe with the=20
			firmware download component of the protocol it
may be less of an issue -
			although not guaranteed. I would hope (and
expect) that as the CAPWAP
			protocol extends, the AC would push new firmware
to the WTP. This does=20
			require that the initial part of the state
machine be fairly static, and
			this could be an area where the "Mandatory to
implement" bit could be
			useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to
older protocol behavior.=20
		=09
			3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of indicating
which message elements
			can be repeated.
		=09
			<PRC> Another good point. When we list the
message elements, we should
			note whether the frequently is 0-1 (meaning
absent or once), 1 (only=20
			once) or 0+ (meaning any number of them could be
present.
		=09
		=09
			4) Can "additional" message elements be added to
a message? (I believe
			so for reporting capabilities, statistics, and
events. For
			configuration, there is nothing in the protocol
that says what happens
			when one end gets an configuration     element
it doesn't know about.
			Should it be ignored, and the other elements
processed, or should the
			complete operation     failed?)=20
		=09
			<PRC> The "Mandatory to implement" bit above
could address this issue.
			If an unrecognized message element is found to
have the bit set, then
			the whole message needs to be rejected. If the
bit is not set, the=20
			message element may be safely ignored.
		=09
		=09
			5) The config has a concept of "default value"
for each configuration
			attribute. However, the default values are not
clearly specified. This
			needs to be resolved to be able to support
"default values".=20
		=09
			<PRC> Another good point raised by David.
		=09
		=09
			6) the documentation of which "binding specific"
message elements are to
			be included with CAPWAP messages is not
consistent, and is difficult to=20
			follow.
		=09
			<PRC> Has this been addressed in the latest
(-02) document?
		=09
		=09
			7) There are some message elements that cause
"actions". This approach
			to protocol design is problematic and should be
eliminated.=20
		=09
			<PRC> Could you be more specific as well as
provide guidance on what you
			would like to see?
		=09
		=09
			8) The message types are inconsistently named,
and do not follow the
			conventions of well designed protocols. Can the
operations be named=20
			consistently with the following terminology:
			  1) request/response (used to get/set/perform
action)
			  2) report/ack (use to tell the other side
something)
		=09
			<PRC> Could you provide your thoughts on which
messages fall within=20
			which one of your categories?
		=09
		=09
			9) Many of the configuration items, and status
items are not listed in
			one section with definitions. (Well make it two
sections - one for
			CAPWAP and the other which is "binding"
specific.) For example, not all=20
			of the time period lengths are identified and
specified in section 4.5.
		=09
			<PRC> Unfortunately, the document has gone back
and forth a few times
			and before we opt to change the structure of the
document, I'd like to=20
			ensure that we have broad agreement on what we
want - with the
			understanding that we will never make everyone
happy.
		=09
		=09
			10) each operation should have listed in which
states it can be sent and
			received
		=09
			<PRC> I do not understand your comment.
		=09
		=09
			11) All strings, such as WTP location, should be
changed from US-ASCII
			encoding to UTF-8 encoding.
		=09
			<PRC> Agreed.
		=09
			12) The term "mobile" is not really accurate
when describing wireless=20
			interfaces, since wireless does not imply
mobile. Can we just use
			the techie term "STA" instead.
		=09
			<PRC> I agree we should use the term Station, or
STA for short.
		=09
		=09
			13) The WTP Descriptor message element contains
too much information,=20
			lacks clarity on the WTP encryption field and
includes version numbers,
			which should be in string form.
		=09
			<PRC> To the first point, I disagree. I think
there is value in knowing
			everything about the WTP. The AC vendors can
expose whatever information=20
			they want, but I don't believe anything is
unnecessary.
		=09
			<PRC> To the second point, this is one of those
areas where the concept
			of the technology binding creates complexity.
Given that we cannot
			simply discuss 802.11i at this point, the only
thing we can do is punt
			to another section in the technology binding
section. That said, I agree
			with Dave that the 802.11 binding section is too
light in this area.
			However, I would much prefer that instead of
trying to address this=20
			specific issue, we discuss whether we should
even be supporting the mode
			of operation where 802.11i is performed in the
AC - especially with the
			introduction of DTLS to secure the data plane.
Right now, it just feels=20
			like we have too many options and I am worried
that interoperability
			will be severely impacted (not to mention
protocol complexity).
		=09
			<PRC> To the last point, I have no issues with
including text stating=20
			that the version numbers should be in string
form.
		=09
		=09
			14) The WTP Descriptor information is not
required at Join time.
		=09
			<PRC> Well, as far as I can tell, I think
there's value in knowing
			whether the WTP can even be supported by the AC.
So the more info is=20
			provided by the WTP, the better the AC can
determine whether it should
			just ignore the WTP or not. This could be done
because it knows that the
			firmware running on the WTP is not compatible,
and it has no new
			firmware to download.
		=09
		=09
			15) Are the values in the WTP Frame Encryption a
capabilities bit, or an
			enum?
		=09
			<PRC> Looks like an enum to me. Not sure what
Dave would prefer the text
			to read. There are various other similar
comments throughout, which I=20
			will not repeat here.
		=09
		=09
			16) The Discovery Response is broken. The AC
SHOULD NOT be providing any
			info to a WTP (or something that claims to be a
WTP). Also, the AC
			should tell the WTP what to do next, with
choices: 1) Ok to try to join,=20
			2) don't try to join, 3) try
discover on a list of
			returned ACs)
		=09
			<PRC> I don't believe there is an issue with
sending the AC's
			information to the WTP, but would solicit input
from the list. That=20
			said, some of the information in the AC
Descriptor is required, such as
			the current load on the AC. No point is trying
to join if he AC
			indicates it's already at max capacity.
			<PRC> I believe if the AC does not return the
response, then it implies=20
			(2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is handled during
the join or configure
			process, which I believe is right.
		=09
		=09
			17) Is AC Name text?
		=09
			<PRC> Yes, and same with WTP Name.
		=09
		=09
			18) Primary Discovery are not required.=20
		=09
			<PRC> Disagree. Required for failover.
		=09
		=09
			19) The text does not make it clear that the
contents of the WTP
			Location is informative only, and as Dave calls
it, a "scratchpad".
		=09
			<PRC> Well, to be honest, I thought the example
"next to the fridge"=20
			made it clear that the information did not
derive from any scientific
			formula. The description also states this is a
user-defined. I believe
			this should be good enough.
		=09
		=09
			20) Session is not required
		=09
			<PRC> I believe you may be correct that with the
transition to DTLS,
			this is no longer required.
		=09
		=09
			21) need to send "common name" as found in the
WTP CERT so that the AC
			can verify
		=09
			<PRC> The protocol currently relies on the MAC
address being the key
			that binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't
see a need to change
			this.
		=09
		=09
			22) Result code in Join Response is not
sufficient, for instance WTP HW=20
			not supported.
		=09
			<PRC> Well, the protocol does not require this
because the Discovery
			Response would never be sent (as the protocol
stands today).
		=09
		=09
			23) AC IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering,
which is unnecessary.=20
		=09
			<PRC> Agreed.
		=09
		=09
			24) Change Echo to Keepalive or heartbeat.
		=09
			<PRC> I call it potato....
		=09
		=09
			25) What if all of the message elements do not
fit within a single
			CAPWAP control frame.=20
		=09
			<PRC> We should address this.
		=09
		=09
			26) AC Name with Index is all messed up...
		=09
			<PRC> Not really. You simply include more than
one, and the index field
			is clearly the priority. Don't understand the
Multi-AC comment. No=20
			inter-AC protocol implied here.
		=09
		=09
			27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not
configure.
		=09
			<PRC> Agreed, but wonder even more why we are
duplicating this
			information across both the WTP Descriptor and
the WTP Board Data=20
			message elements.
		=09
		=09
			28) The WTP Static IPv4 Address should not have
the Static bit, but
			instead state that 0.0.0.0 <http://0.0.0.0/>
means a static address is not to be used.
		=09
			<PRC> I don't have an issue with this request,
but in the end we have=20
			the same function. The reason why I state this
is that we can refine
			this protocol until the cows come home, and at
one point we need to draw=20
			a line in the sand.
		=09
		=09
			29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join,
and the reasons listed=20
			are not clear enough.
		=09
			<PRC> Doesn't really matter whether this is
included in the
			configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees
to move it. We can=20
			clarify some of the reasons, as long as it
provides value.=20
		=09
		=09
			30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration
message element's BSSID
			field should be an array.
		=09
			<PRC> Disagree.
		=09
		=09
			30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration
message element's Country
			Code is not clear enough.
		=09
			<PRC> The text points to the actual MIB element
in the 802.11-1999
			standard, which very clearly defines the
contents of the field. I don't=20
			think there's value in replicating the format of
this field in the=20
			CAPWAP standard.
		=09
		=09
			31) There seems like an awful lot of additional
configuration message
			elements that need to be specified here!
		=09
			<PRC> Having built a protocol based on this,
it's not clear to me what's=20
			missing. I think it would be useful if you
provided concrete details on
			what's missing.
		=09
		=09
			32) Configuration Status is just plain broken
because any configuration=20
			change operation may fail and there is no
response to the=20
			configuration changes specified in this command.
		=09
			<PRC> There certainly is - I guess I don't
understand the concern.
		=09
		=09
			33) Use of Change State Event should instead be
Radio Admin State.=20
		=09
			<PRC> Perhaps the two are not described
properly. The first is used by=20
			the WTP to inform the AC that something has
occurred with a radio. The
			second is used by the AC to enable/disable a
radio.
		=09
		=09
			34) Report Timer needs to be in section 4.5 or
11
		=09
			<PRC> ok
		=09
		=09
			35) Should Idle Timeout be per radio, or per
WTP, and should the value
			be defined in section 4.5 or 11.
		=09
			<PRC> Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine as
it is.=20
		=09
		=09
			36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and should
be removed.=20
		=09
			<PRC> Disagree. I believe it is necessary to
create enough resiliency in
			the protocol/service.
		=09
		=09
			37) How are the "Rate Set" and "Supported Rates"
encoded.=20
		=09
			<PRC> This was fixed in the -02=20
		=09
		=09
			38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the
configuration, but instead in the
			join.
		=09
			<PRC> Not sure this really matters....
		=09
		=09
			39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so strange and
is being managed like no=20
			other configuration data.
		=09
			<PRC> I do not understand the comment
		=09
		=09
			40) Decryption Error Report Period is not
defined in section 4.5 or 11
		=09
			<PRC> ok, and note that the information has been
moved to the IEEE=20
			802.11 RSNA Error Report From Mobile
		=09
		=09
			41) Configuration Update Response. today, there
are primarily two types
			of configuration models. The first is when
config is changed, it is only
			changed in the volatile copy (the memory or
running). An explicit=20
			command is needed to save the config to
nonvolatile storage. The second
			model has config both running (volatile) and
saved (nonvolatile) config
			changed when a config change is made. And there
might be a special
			command to have a config change apply to only
one. In this case, there
			is no need for a "save config to nonvolatile"
command. It is not clear
			what is suppose to be supported here in CAPWAP,
and how does CAPWAP=20
			support devices with no or very limited
nonvolatile storage for config!
		=09
			<PRC> CAPWAP does not support WTPs with no
nonvolatile storage. The
			protocol has the AC push configs to the WTP,
which saves them at the=20
			time they are received. I do not believe
anything else is required.
		=09
		=09
			42) Configuration Update Response includes the
Result Code message
			element, which includes values that do not
appear to be relevant for=20
			this message, and there are plenty of other
failure cases
		=09
			<PRC> ok, but note that we are sharing a common
message element. Any
			suggestions on how to address your issue?
		=09
		=09
			43) Change State Event Report. This seems a
little silly to be sent in=20
			the "configure" state. It seems only appropriate
for the "run" state.
			Some might argue that even in the "run" state it
shouldn't be sent after
			a "config update" request that changes the
operational state. However,=20
			in the "run" state, it may take a while to have
the operational state
			change to follow the admin state. Thus, I think
it is OK in the "run"
			state after config changes."
		=09
			<PRC> I believe this was addressed in -02.=20
		=09
		=09
			44) Clear Config Request. this operation has
several problems, which
			include:
			   1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec says that
this can only be done in
			the "run" state. This is silly. It should also
be possible in the=20
			"configure" state.
			<PRC> I wonder why the AC would even consider
clearing the WTP's state
			before it even knows how it is configured.
		=09
			   2) the value of "manufacturing defaults" is
not defined, and a poor=20
			term to use, since it implies that that each
manufacturer can have
			different values. If so, then the AC will have
no knowledge of the
			config on the WTP! The problem of "default
config values" has already be=20
			mentioned above. After each config attribute has
been defined with a
			default value, then the proper term would be
"CAPWAP config defaults".
			<PRC> Yes, you've raised this point already, and
I agree that it does=20
			need to be addressed.
		=09
			   3) This operation is not defined to have a
response. This is broken,
			since any config change can fail. Also, it is
not defined what happens
			next. Does this cause the WTP to reboot an start
a "clean discovery"?=20
			<PRC> This was addressed in -02
		=09
		=09
			45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are actually
three different "Image
			Data Request" messages. Which one is determined
by which of the
			three message elements is contained. This is
completely silly! There=20
			should be three separate operations!
Additionally, how does the WTP know
			which image to get? The AC should be making that
decision.
		=09
			<PRC> I believe the WTP is the only device that
knows what it's filename=20
			should be. Why would an AC vendor know about
file naming conventions
			used by the WTP vendors? I believe your other
issues are discussed in
			the next items.
		=09
		=09
			46) Image Data Response. this is silly. This
operation can fail! There=20
			needs to be message element that indicates the
result.
		=09
			<PRC> How so? This is only used to send firmware
to the WTP. Not clear
			what could fail... Reading the image from flash?
		=09
		=09
			47) Image Data Request. when starting over again
at the WTP start state,=20
			the WTP shouldn't use the "normal" discovery
process, but instead "fast
			track" a connection back to the AC that just
downloaded the image. With
			a little more          work, we could probably
figure out a way to reuse=20
			the old DTLS session.
		=09
			<PRC> To what gain? What is so expensive about
the discovery, and what
			happened if the AC was not longer reachable?
		=09
		=09
			48) opcode - if this is here, might as well also
have a value that=20
			indicates last block of the image file, instead
of looking at the block
			size.
		=09
			<PRC> But we're just changing for the sake of
changing - the protocol
			works as-is.
		=09
		=09
			49) since this operation does not have the block
number as a parameter,=20
			the WTP must determine the block number via the
CAPWAP message header
			sequence number.  NOTE: DTLS does not provide
in-order delivery of
			packets. Also, this requires the WTP to remember
state. This message
			element should be re-engineered to have the
following subfields:=20
			[edited]
		=09
			<PRC> The control header includes a sequence
number, and while we can
			change the current protocol to match your
recommendations, the protocol
			does work. If it ain't broken...
		=09
		=09
			50) Image Data Response. this is silly. This
operation can fail!  For=20
			example, the WTP can run out of space to store
the block, or
			there could be a failure in writing the block to
storage. (Or as "Image
			Data Request"(9.1a) is presently specified, the
checksum match could=20
			fail.) There needs to be message element that
indicates the result.)
			Note: don't need a block number field, since
request and responses are
			paired.
		=09
			<PRC> We can include a result code
		=09
		=09
			51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief=20
		=09
			<PRC> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-).
Seriously, the protocol
			does work, so what exactly are you looking for?
		=09
		=09
			52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This
operation can fail! There
			needs to be message element that indicates the
result.
		=09
			<PRC> See above comment.
		=09
			53) Reset Request. ...
		=09
			<PRC> The comment is irrelevant now that Clear
Config has changed.
		=09
		=09
			54) Reset Response. this is silly. This
operation can fail! There needs
			to be message element that indicates the
result.
		=09
			<PRC> I sense a trend. I will stop including
these messages from now on.
		=09
		=09
			55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this
reported if the condition
			remains?
		=09
			<PRC> Only required once, I think, but we may
want to include some text
			covering that.
		=09
		=09
			56) the list of events seems understated!=20
		=09
			<PRC> Text and conditions please
		=09
		=09
			57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have -
remove.
		=09
			<PRC> Disagree. Providing diagnostics
capabilities is required.
		=09
		=09
			58) Mobile Config Request. the actual details of
how this works on both=20
			splitMAC and especially localMAC are not well
specified. That is, only
			the figures and text in sections 11.1.1 and
11.1.2 provide any clue as
			to events that would cause an AC to send this
message type. Also, there=20
			are restrictions on combinations of parameters
that can be included in
			the message.
		=09
			<PRC> I wonder whether other folks agree that
more details are required.
		=09
		=09
			59) it doesn't say if one message can be used to
update more than one=20
			STA. It should be able.
		=09
			<PRC> No, otherwise you end up with the problem
of associating specific
			message elements with a given mobile. One mobile
per request.
		=09
		=09
			60) IEEE 802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC
address be included so=20
			this message element can be matched with a
(4.4.8)Add Mobile message
			element?
		=09
			<PRC> I believe this is to your previous point,
but the protocol assumes
			one mobile per request.
		=09
		=09
			61) IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for
data traffic to the AC? If
			so, then why is this an 802.11 message element
		=09
			<PRC> Intended to be a way to push policies to
the WTP to prioritize
			mobile traffic.
		=09
		=09
			62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why is a
new message type that is
			802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11 WLANs?
It seems like the
			existing "(8.4)Configuration Update Request"
message could be used.
		=09
			<PRC> To be more specific only.=20
		=09
		=09
			63) note here there are information elements to
create, delete, and
			modify WLANs. However, for message type
"(10.1)Mobile Config Request",
			there is only add and delete (and the "add" used
to modify).=20
		=09
			<PRC> Correct. The protocol requires the AC to
resend a new add with a
			different policy. No specific reason, but if
this is deemed
			inconsistent, we could change it.
		=09
		=09
			64) IEEE 802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping
of WLAN IDs to BSSIDs=20
			seems like it needs a little more work
		=09
			<PRC> What exactly would you like to see?
		=09
		=09
			Pat Calhoun
			CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
			Cisco Systems
		=09
		=09
		=09
			> -----Original Message-----=20
			> From: David T. Perkins
[mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com]
			> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 4:31 PM=20
			> To: capwap@frascone.com=20
			> Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01
operations
			>
			> HI,=20
			>
			> I've attached a long file that summarizes the
operations in
			> CAPWAP-01.
			>
			> Enjoy,
			> /david t. perkins=20
			>
=09
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			To unsubscribe or modify your subscription
options, please visit:
=09
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=20
		=09
			Archives:
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		=09



=09
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBC9.DCF01A7B
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2976" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D303214916-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I feel=20
very strongly that the AC should not be maintainin significant state for =
the WTP=20
during the discovery phase. So this message element must be included in =
the=20
join, regardless of whether the discovery was made or =
not.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Dorothy Stanley=20
  [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 29, =
2006=20
  2:41 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Michael Montemurro<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  capwap@frascone.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to =
Issue=20
  163 "WTP Descriptorinformation is not required at Join time" /was Re:=20
  Acommentary on CAPWAP-01 operations<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>All,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Issue 163 "WTP Descriptor information is not required at Join =
time"&nbsp;=20
  is listed below:</DIV>
  <DIV><BR><EM>14) The WTP Descriptor information is not required at =
Join=20
  time.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Well, as far as I can tell, I think there's =
value in=20
  knowing<BR>whether the WTP can even be supported by the AC. So the =
more info=20
  is <BR>provided by the WTP, the better the AC can determine whether it =

  should<BR>just ignore the WTP or not. This could be done because it =
knows that=20
  the<BR>firmware running on the WTP is not compatible, and it has no=20
  new<BR>firmware to download.</EM></DIV>
  <DIV><EM></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>The proposed resolution to Issue 163 is:</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Close with no change to the draft. The WTP descriptor element is=20
  included</DIV>
  <DIV>in the optional Discover Request message and the Join Request =
to</DIV>
  <DIV>indicate the WTP info to the AC. If the Discover Request is not =
sent,=20
  then</DIV>
  <DIV>the Join Request is the first message in which the AC receives =
this=20
  information.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Comments welcome.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Thanks,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Dorothy<BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 6/30/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Michael=20
  Montemurro</B> &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com">montemurro.michael@gmail.com=
</A>&gt;=20
  wrote:</SPAN>=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
#ccc 1px solid">
    <DIV>David, Pat,</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points <SPAN =
class=3Dst id=3Dst=20
    name=3D"st">in</SPAN> David's email. Happy hunting!</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Mike<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3De id=3Dq_10c257cfe921fd20_1>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 6/27/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Pat=20
    Calhoun (pacalhou)</B> &lt;<A=20
    onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com" =
target=3D_blank>pcalhoun@cisco.com </A>&gt;=20
    wrote:</SPAN>=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
#ccc 1px solid">Going=20
      through David's lengthy document, he has raised an =
interesting<BR>number=20
      of points that I believe require issues to be created. At one =
<BR>point=20
      I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in order to be brief, =
and<BR>introducing=20
      my own numbering scheme.<BR><BR>1) Can message elements be in any =
order?=20
      (I believe they should be)<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes, and I suspect =
we need=20
      to include text to make it more <BR>obvious.<BR><BR><BR>2) Are all =

      specified message elements required? (The obvious answer =
is<BR>"yes", but=20
      this document doesn't discuss versioning. For example, what<BR>if =
in a new=20
      version of CAPWAP an additional message element was to be =
<BR>added. Would=20
      a new message type be created and the additional =
message<BR>element added=20
      to it, or the existing type reused?)<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; This is a =
great=20
      question, and one that does need to be addressed<BR>in the spec. =
In the=20
      Diameter protocol we dealt with this issue by <BR>including a =
"Mandatory=20
      to implement" bit. If any AVP was received, whose<BR>bit was set, =
yet was=20
      not recognized, then the request had to =
be<BR>rejected.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      We could consider something similar here, but I believe with the=20
      <BR>firmware download component of the protocol it may be less of =
an issue=20
      -<BR>although not guaranteed. I would hope (and expect) that as =
the=20
      CAPWAP<BR>protocol extends, the AC would push new firmware to the =
WTP.=20
      This does <BR>require that the initial part of the state machine =
be fairly=20
      static, and<BR>this could be an area where the "Mandatory to =
implement"=20
      bit could be<BR>useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to =
older=20
      protocol behavior. <BR><BR>3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of=20
      indicating which message elements<BR>can be =
repeated.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      Another good point. When we list the message elements, we =
should<BR>note=20
      whether the frequently is 0-1 (meaning absent or once), 1 (only =
<BR>once)=20
      or 0+ (meaning any number of them could be present.<BR><BR><BR>4) =
Can=20
      "additional" message elements be added to a message? (I =
believe<BR>so for=20
      reporting capabilities, statistics, and&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
events.=20
      For<BR>configuration, there is nothing in the protocol that says =
what=20
      happens<BR>when one end gets an =
configuration&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      element it doesn't know about.<BR>Should it be ignored, and the =
other=20
      elements processed, or should the<BR>complete=20
      operation&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; failed?) <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; The =

      "Mandatory to implement" bit above could address this issue.<BR>If =
an=20
      unrecognized message element is found to have the bit set, =
then<BR>the=20
      whole message needs to be rejected. If the bit is not set, the =
<BR>message=20
      element may be safely ignored.<BR><BR><BR>5) The config has a =
concept of=20
      "default value" for each configuration<BR>attribute. However, the =
default=20
      values are not clearly specified. This<BR>needs to be resolved to =
be able=20
      to support "default values". <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Another good =
point raised=20
      by David.<BR><BR><BR>6) the documentation of which "binding =
specific"=20
      message elements are to<BR>be included with CAPWAP messages is not =

      consistent, and is difficult to <BR>follow.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Has =
this=20
      been addressed in the latest (-02) document?<BR><BR><BR>7) There =
are some=20
      message elements that cause "actions". This approach<BR>to =
protocol design=20
      is problematic and should be eliminated. <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Could =
you be=20
      more specific as well as provide guidance on what you<BR>would =
like to=20
      see?<BR><BR><BR>8) The message types are inconsistently named, and =
do not=20
      follow the<BR>conventions of well designed protocols. Can the =
operations=20
      be named <BR>consistently with the following=20
      terminology:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;1) request/response (used to =
get/set/perform=20
      action)<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;2) report/ack (use to tell the other side=20
      something)<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Could you provide your thoughts on =
which=20
      messages fall within <BR>which one of your =
categories?<BR><BR><BR>9) Many=20
      of the configuration items, and status items are not listed =
in<BR>one=20
      section with definitions. (Well make it two sections - one =
for<BR>CAPWAP=20
      and the other which is "binding" specific.) For example, not all =
<BR>of=20
      the time period lengths are identified and specified in section=20
      4.5.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Unfortunately, the document has gone back =
and=20
      forth a few times<BR>and before we opt to change the structure of =
the=20
      document, I'd like to <BR>ensure that we have broad agreement on =
what we=20
      want - with the<BR>understanding that we will never make everyone=20
      happy.<BR><BR><BR>10) each operation should have listed in which =
states it=20
      can be sent and<BR>received<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I do not understand =
your=20
      comment.<BR><BR><BR>11) All strings, such as WTP location, should =
be=20
      changed from US-ASCII<BR>encoding to UTF-8 =
encoding.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      Agreed.<BR><BR>12) The term "mobile" is not really accurate when=20
      describing wireless <BR>interfaces, since wireless does not=20
      imply&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;mobile. Can we just =
use<BR>the=20
      techie term "STA" instead.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I agree we should =
use the=20
      term Station, or STA for short.<BR><BR><BR>13) The WTP Descriptor =
message=20
      element contains too much information, <BR>lacks clarity on the =
WTP=20
      encryption field and includes version numbers,<BR>which should be =
in=20
      string form.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To the first point, I disagree. I =
think=20
      there is value in knowing<BR>everything about the WTP. The AC =
vendors can=20
      expose whatever information <BR>they want, but I don't believe =
anything is=20
      unnecessary.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To the second point, this is one =
of those=20
      areas where the concept<BR>of the technology binding creates =
complexity.=20
      Given that we cannot<BR>simply discuss 802.11i at this point, the =
only=20
      thing we can do is punt<BR>to another section in the technology =
binding=20
      section. That said, I agree<BR>with Dave that the 802.11 binding =
section=20
      is too light in this area.<BR>However, I would much prefer that =
instead of=20
      trying to address this <BR>specific issue, we discuss whether we =
should=20
      even be supporting the mode<BR>of operation where 802.11i is =
performed in=20
      the AC - especially with the<BR>introduction of DTLS to secure the =
data=20
      plane. Right now, it just feels <BR>like we have too many options =
and I am=20
      worried that interoperability<BR>will be severely impacted (not to =
mention=20
      protocol complexity).<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To the last point, I have =
no=20
      issues with including text stating <BR>that the version numbers =
should be=20
      in string form.<BR><BR><BR>14) The WTP Descriptor information is =
not=20
      required at Join time.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Well, as far as I can =
tell, I=20
      think there's value in knowing<BR>whether the WTP can even be =
supported by=20
      the AC. So the more info is <BR>provided by the WTP, the better =
the AC can=20
      determine whether it should<BR>just ignore the WTP or not. This =
could be=20
      done because it knows that the<BR>firmware running on the WTP is =
not=20
      compatible, and it has no new<BR>firmware to =
download.<BR><BR><BR>15) Are=20
      the values in the WTP Frame Encryption a capabilities bit, or=20
      an<BR>enum?<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Looks like an enum to me. Not sure =
what=20
      Dave would prefer the text<BR>to read. There are various other =
similar=20
      comments throughout, which I <BR>will not repeat =
here.<BR><BR><BR>16) The=20
      Discovery Response is broken. The AC SHOULD NOT be providing =
any<BR>info=20
      to a WTP (or something that claims to be a WTP). Also, the =
AC<BR>should=20
      tell the WTP what to do next, with choices: 1) Ok to try to join, =
<BR>2)=20
      don't try to join, 3)=20
      =
try&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      discover on a list of<BR>returned ACs)<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I don't =
believe=20
      there is an issue with sending the AC's<BR>information to the WTP, =
but=20
      would solicit input from the list. That <BR>said, some of the =
information=20
      in the AC Descriptor is required, such as<BR>the current load on =
the AC.=20
      No point is trying to join if he AC<BR>indicates it's already at =
max=20
      capacity.<BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe if the AC does not return the =
response,=20
      then it implies <BR>(2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is handled =
during the=20
      join or configure<BR>process, which I believe is =
right.<BR><BR><BR>17) Is=20
      AC Name text?<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes, and same with WTP=20
      Name.<BR><BR><BR>18) Primary Discovery are not required.=20
      <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. Required for =
failover.<BR><BR><BR>19) The=20
      text does not make it clear that the contents of the =
WTP<BR>Location is=20
      informative only, and as Dave calls it, a =
"scratchpad".<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      Well, to be honest, I thought the example "next to the fridge" =
<BR>made it=20
      clear that the information did not derive from any =
scientific<BR>formula.=20
      The description also states this is a user-defined. I =
believe<BR>this=20
      should be good enough.<BR><BR><BR>20) Session is not=20
      required<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe you may be correct that with =
the=20
      transition to DTLS,<BR>this is no longer required.<BR><BR><BR>21) =
need to=20
      send "common name" as found in the WTP CERT so that the AC<BR>can=20
      verify<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; The protocol currently relies on the MAC =
address=20
      being the key<BR>that binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't =
see a need=20
      to change<BR>this.<BR><BR><BR>22) Result code in Join Response is =
not=20
      sufficient, for instance WTP HW <BR>not =
supported.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      Well, the protocol does not require this because the =
Discovery<BR>Response=20
      would never be sent (as the protocol stands today).<BR><BR><BR>23) =
AC=20
      IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering, which is unnecessary.=20
      <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Agreed.<BR><BR><BR>24) Change Echo to =
Keepalive or=20
      heartbeat.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I call it potato....<BR><BR><BR>25) =
What if=20
      all of the message elements do not fit within a single<BR>CAPWAP =
control=20
      frame. <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; We should address this.<BR><BR><BR>26) =
AC Name=20
      with Index is all messed up...<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Not really. You =
simply=20
      include more than one, and the index field<BR>is clearly the =
priority.=20
      Don't understand the Multi-AC comment. No <BR>inter-AC protocol =
implied=20
      here.<BR><BR><BR>27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not=20
      configure.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Agreed, but wonder even more why we =
are=20
      duplicating this<BR>information across both the WTP Descriptor and =
the WTP=20
      Board Data <BR>message elements.<BR><BR><BR>28) The WTP Static =
IPv4=20
      Address should not have the Static bit, but<BR>instead state that =
<A=20
      onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"http://0.0.0.0/" target=3D_blank>0.0.0.0 </A>means a =
static address is=20
      not to be used.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I don't have an issue with this =

      request, but in the end we have <BR>the same function. The reason =
why I=20
      state this is that we can refine<BR>this protocol until the cows =
come=20
      home, and at one point we need to draw <BR>a line in the=20
      sand.<BR><BR><BR>29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, =
and the=20
      reasons listed <BR>are not clear enough.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; =
Doesn't really=20
      matter whether this is included in the<BR>configuration or the =
join, but=20
      if the WG agrees to move it. We can <BR>clarify some of the =
reasons, as=20
      long as it provides value. <BR><BR><BR>30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP =
Radio=20
      Configuration message element's BSSID<BR>field should be an=20
      array.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree.<BR><BR><BR>30) The IEEE 802.11 =
WTP=20
      Radio Configuration message element's Country<BR>Code is not clear =

      enough.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; The text points to the actual MIB =
element in=20
      the 802.11-1999<BR>standard, which very clearly defines the =
contents of=20
      the field. I don't <BR>think there's value in replicating the =
format of=20
      this field in the <BR>CAPWAP standard.<BR><BR><BR>31) There seems =
like an=20
      awful lot of additional configuration message<BR>elements that =
need to be=20
      specified here!<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Having built a protocol based =
on this,=20
      it's not clear to me what's <BR>missing. I think it would be =
useful if you=20
      provided concrete details on<BR>what's missing.<BR><BR><BR>32)=20
      Configuration Status is just plain broken because any =
configuration=20
      <BR>change operation may fail and there is=20
      no&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
response to=20
      the <BR>configuration changes specified in this=20
      command.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; There certainly is - I guess I don't=20
      understand the concern.<BR><BR><BR>33) Use of Change State Event =
should=20
      instead be Radio Admin State. <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Perhaps the two =
are not=20
      described properly. The first is used by <BR>the WTP to inform the =
AC that=20
      something has occurred with a radio. The<BR>second is used by the =
AC to=20
      enable/disable a radio.<BR><BR><BR>34) Report Timer needs to be in =
section=20
      4.5 or 11<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; ok<BR><BR><BR>35) Should Idle Timeout =
be per=20
      radio, or per WTP, and should the value<BR>be defined in section =
4.5 or=20
      11.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine as =
it is.=20
      <BR><BR><BR>36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and should be =
removed.=20
      <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. I believe it is necessary to create =
enough=20
      resiliency in<BR>the protocol/service.<BR><BR><BR>37) How are the =
"Rate=20
      Set" and "Supported Rates" encoded. <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; This was =
fixed in=20
      the -02 <BR><BR><BR>38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the =
configuration,=20
      but instead in the<BR>join.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Not sure this =
really=20
      matters....<BR><BR><BR>39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so strange =
and is=20
      being managed like no <BR>other configuration =
data.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I=20
      do not understand the comment<BR><BR><BR>40) Decryption Error =
Report=20
      Period is not defined in section 4.5 or 11<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; ok, =
and note=20
      that the information has been moved to the IEEE <BR>802.11 RSNA =
Error=20
      Report From Mobile<BR><BR><BR>41) Configuration Update Response. =
today,=20
      there are primarily two types<BR>of configuration models. The =
first is=20
      when config is changed, it is only<BR>changed in the volatile copy =
(the=20
      memory or running). An explicit <BR>command is needed to save the =
config=20
      to nonvolatile storage. The second<BR>model has config both =
running=20
      (volatile) and saved (nonvolatile) config<BR>changed when a config =
change=20
      is made. And there might be a special<BR>command to have a config =
change=20
      apply to only one. In this case, there<BR>is no need for a "save =
config to=20
      nonvolatile" command. It is not clear<BR>what is suppose to be =
supported=20
      here in CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP <BR>support devices with no or =
very=20
      limited nonvolatile storage for config!<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; CAPWAP =
does not=20
      support WTPs with no nonvolatile storage. The<BR>protocol has the =
AC push=20
      configs to the WTP, which saves them at the <BR>time they are =
received. I=20
      do not believe anything else is required.<BR><BR><BR>42) =
Configuration=20
      Update Response includes the Result Code message<BR>element, which =

      includes values that do not appear to be relevant for <BR>this =
message,=20
      and there are plenty of other failure cases<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; ok, =
but=20
      note that we are sharing a common message element. =
Any<BR>suggestions on=20
      how to address your issue?<BR><BR><BR>43) Change State Event =
Report. This=20
      seems a little silly to be sent in <BR>the "configure" state. It =
seems=20
      only appropriate for the "run" state.<BR>Some might argue that =
even in the=20
      "run" state it shouldn't be sent after<BR>a "config update" =
request that=20
      changes the operational state. However, <BR>in the "run" state, it =
may=20
      take a while to have the operational state<BR>change to follow the =
admin=20
      state. Thus, I think it is OK in the "run"<BR>state after config=20
      changes."<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe this was addressed in -02.=20
      <BR><BR><BR>44) Clear Config Request. this operation has several =
problems,=20
      which<BR>include:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec =
says=20
      that this can only be done in<BR>the "run" state. This is silly. =
It should=20
      also be possible in the <BR>"configure" state.<BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I =
wonder why=20
      the AC would even consider clearing the WTP's state<BR>before it =
even=20
      knows how it is configured.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; 2) the value of=20
      "manufacturing defaults" is not defined, and a poor <BR>term to =
use, since=20
      it implies that that each manufacturer can have<BR>different =
values. If=20
      so, then the AC will have no knowledge of the<BR>config on the =
WTP! The=20
      problem of "default config values" has already be <BR>mentioned =
above.=20
      After each config attribute has been defined with a<BR>default =
value, then=20
      the proper term would be "CAPWAP config defaults".<BR>&lt;PRC&gt; =
Yes,=20
      you've raised this point already, and I agree that it does =
<BR>need to be=20
      addressed.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; 3) This operation is not defined to =
have a=20
      response. This is broken,<BR>since any config change can fail. =
Also, it is=20
      not defined what happens<BR>next. Does this cause the WTP to =
reboot an=20
      start a "clean discovery"? <BR>&lt;PRC&gt; This was addressed in=20
      -02<BR><BR><BR>45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are actually =
three=20
      different "Image<BR>Data Request" messages. Which one is=20
      =
determined&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;by =

      which of the<BR>three message elements is contained. This is =
completely=20
      silly! There <BR>should be three separate operations! =
Additionally, how=20
      does the WTP know<BR>which image to get? The AC should be making =
that=20
      decision.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe the WTP is the only device =
that=20
      knows what it's filename <BR>should be. Why would an AC vendor =
know about=20
      file naming conventions<BR>used by the WTP vendors? I believe your =
other=20
      issues are discussed in<BR>the next items.<BR><BR><BR>46) Image =
Data=20
      Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There <BR>needs =
to be=20
      message element that indicates=20
      =
the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<BR=
><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      How so? This is only used to send firmware to the WTP. Not =
clear<BR>what=20
      could fail... Reading the image from flash?<BR><BR><BR>47) Image =
Data=20
      Request. when starting over again at the WTP start state, <BR>the =
WTP=20
      shouldn't use the "normal" discovery process, but instead =
"fast<BR>track"=20
      a connection back to the AC that just downloaded the image. =
With<BR>a=20
      little=20
      =
more&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;work, we =

      could probably figure out a way to reuse <BR>the old DTLS=20
      session.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To what gain? What is so expensive =
about the=20
      discovery, and what<BR>happened if the AC was not longer=20
      reachable?<BR><BR><BR>48) opcode - if this is here, might as well =
also=20
      have a value that <BR>indicates last block of the image file, =
instead of=20
      looking at the block<BR>size.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; But we're just =
changing=20
      for the sake of changing - the protocol<BR>works =
as-is.<BR><BR><BR>49)=20
      since this operation does not have the block number as a =
parameter,=20
      <BR>the WTP must determine the block number via the CAPWAP message =

      header<BR>sequence number.&nbsp;&nbsp;NOTE: DTLS does not provide =
in-order=20
      delivery of<BR>packets. Also, this requires the WTP to remember =
state.=20
      This message<BR>element should be re-engineered to have the =
following=20
      subfields: <BR>[edited]<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; The control header =
includes a=20
      sequence number, and while we can<BR>change the current protocol =
to match=20
      your recommendations, the protocol<BR>does work. If it ain't=20
      broken...<BR><BR><BR>50) Image Data Response. this is silly. This=20
      operation can fail!&nbsp;&nbsp;For <BR>example, the WTP can run =
out of=20
      space to=20
      =
store&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the=20
      block, or<BR>there could be a failure in writing the block to =
storage. (Or=20
      as "Image<BR>Data Request"(9.1a) is presently specified, the =
checksum=20
      match could <BR>fail.) There needs to be message element that =
indicates=20
      the result.)<BR>Note: don't need a block number field, since =
request and=20
      responses are<BR>paired.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; We can include a =
result=20
      code<BR><BR><BR>51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief=20
      <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-). =
Seriously,=20
      the protocol<BR>does work, so what exactly are you looking=20
      for?<BR><BR><BR>52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This =
operation can=20
      fail! There<BR>needs to be message element that indicates=20
      =
the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<BR=
><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      See above comment.<BR><BR>53) Reset Request. =
...<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; The=20
      comment is irrelevant now that Clear Config has =
changed.<BR><BR><BR>54)=20
      Reset Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There =
needs<BR>to=20
      be message element that indicates=20
      =
the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<BR=
><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      I sense a trend. I will stop including these messages from now=20
      on.<BR><BR><BR>55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this =
reported if=20
      the condition<BR>remains?<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Only required once, I =
think,=20
      but we may want to include some text<BR>covering =
that.<BR><BR><BR>56) the=20
      list of events seems understated! <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Text and =
conditions=20
      please<BR><BR><BR>57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have -=20
      remove.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. Providing diagnostics =
capabilities is=20
      required.<BR><BR><BR>58) Mobile Config Request. the actual details =
of how=20
      this works on both <BR>splitMAC and especially localMAC are not =
well=20
      specified. That is, only<BR>the figures and text in sections =
11.1.1 and=20
      11.1.2 provide any clue as<BR>to events that would cause an AC to =
send=20
      this message type. Also, there <BR>are restrictions on =
combinations of=20
      parameters that can be included in<BR>the =
message.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I=20
      wonder whether other folks agree that more details are=20
      required.<BR><BR><BR>59) it doesn't say if one message can be used =
to=20
      update more than one <BR>STA. It should be =
able.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; No,=20
      otherwise you end up with the problem of associating =
specific<BR>message=20
      elements with a given mobile. One mobile per =
request.<BR><BR><BR>60) IEEE=20
      802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC address be included so =
<BR>this=20
      message element can be matched with a (4.4.8)Add Mobile=20
      message<BR>element?<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe this is to your =
previous=20
      point, but the protocol assumes<BR>one mobile per =
request.<BR><BR><BR>61)=20
      IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for data traffic to the AC?=20
      If<BR>so, then why is this an 802.11 message =
element<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      Intended to be a way to push policies to the WTP to =
prioritize<BR>mobile=20
      traffic.<BR><BR><BR>62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why is a =
new=20
      message type that is<BR>802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11 =
WLANs? It=20
      seems like the<BR>existing "(8.4)Configuration Update Request" =
message=20
      could be used.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To be more specific only.=20
      <BR><BR><BR>63) note here there are information elements to =
create,=20
      delete, and<BR>modify WLANs. However, for message type =
"(10.1)Mobile=20
      Config Request",<BR>there is only add and delete (and the "add" =
used to=20
      modify). <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Correct. The protocol requires the AC =
to=20
      resend a new add with a<BR>different policy. No specific reason, =
but if=20
      this is deemed<BR>inconsistent, we could change it.<BR><BR><BR>64) =
IEEE=20
      802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping of WLAN IDs to BSSIDs =
<BR>seems=20
      like it needs a little more work<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; What exactly =
would you=20
      like to see?<BR><BR><BR>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
      Unit<BR>Cisco Systems<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----=20
      <BR>&gt; From: David T. Perkins [mailto:<A=20
      onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com"=20
      target=3D_blank>dperkins@dsperkins.com</A>]<BR>&gt; Sent: =
Thursday, June 22,=20
      2006 4:31 PM <BR>&gt; To: <A=20
      onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com" =
target=3D_blank>capwap@frascone.com=20
      </A><BR>&gt; Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01=20
      operations<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; HI, <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I've attached a =
long file=20
      that summarizes the operations in<BR>&gt; =
CAPWAP-01.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
      Enjoy,<BR>&gt; /david t. perkins=20
      =
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ok with me.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:34 PM
	To: Michael Montemurro
	Cc: capwap@frascone.com
	Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 170 "Result code
in JoinResponse is not sufficient" /was Re: A commentary onCAPWAP-01
operations
=09
=09
	All,
	=20
	Issue 170 is listed below:
	=20
	22) Result code in Join Response is not sufficient, for instance
WTP HW
	not supported.
=09
	<PRC> Well, the protocol does not require this because the
Discovery
	Response would never be sent (as the protocol stands today).=20
	=20
	The proposed resolution to Issue 170 is:
	=20
	If  Discover Request/Response messages are sent, then the
current
	Result codes are sufficient. But if the Discover
Request/Response messages
	are not sent - they are indicated as optional in the text, then
the commenter
	is correct.
	=20
	Insert the following result code value at the end of 4.4.28:
	=20
	8  Failure (Join Failure, WTP Hardware not supported)
	=20
	=20
	Comments welcome.
	=20
	Thanks,
	=20
	Dorothy
=09
	=20
	On 6/30/06, Michael Montemurro <montemurro.michael@gmail.com>
wrote:=20

		David, Pat,
		=20
		I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points in
David's email. Happy hunting!
		=20
		Mike
	=09
		=20
	=09
		On 6/27/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com >
wrote:=20

			Going through David's lengthy document, he has
raised an interesting
			number of points that I believe require issues
to be created. At one=20
			point I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in order
to be brief, and
			introducing my own numbering scheme.
		=09
			1) Can message elements be in any order? (I
believe they should be)
		=09
			<PRC> Yes, and I suspect we need to include text
to make it more=20
			obvious.
		=09
		=09
			2) Are all specified message elements required?
(The obvious answer is
			"yes", but this document doesn't discuss
versioning. For example, what
			if in a new version of CAPWAP an additional
message element was to be=20
			added. Would a new message type be created and
the additional message
			element added to it, or the existing type
reused?)
		=09
			<PRC> This is a great question, and one that
does need to be addressed
			in the spec. In the Diameter protocol we dealt
with this issue by=20
			including a "Mandatory to implement" bit. If any
AVP was received, whose
			bit was set, yet was not recognized, then the
request had to be
			rejected.
		=09
			<PRC> We could consider something similar here,
but I believe with the=20
			firmware download component of the protocol it
may be less of an issue -
			although not guaranteed. I would hope (and
expect) that as the CAPWAP
			protocol extends, the AC would push new firmware
to the WTP. This does=20
			require that the initial part of the state
machine be fairly static, and
			this could be an area where the "Mandatory to
implement" bit could be
			useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to
older protocol behavior.=20
		=09
			3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of indicating
which message elements
			can be repeated.
		=09
			<PRC> Another good point. When we list the
message elements, we should
			note whether the frequently is 0-1 (meaning
absent or once), 1 (only=20
			once) or 0+ (meaning any number of them could be
present.
		=09
		=09
			4) Can "additional" message elements be added to
a message? (I believe
			so for reporting capabilities, statistics, and
events. For
			configuration, there is nothing in the protocol
that says what happens
			when one end gets an configuration     element
it doesn't know about.
			Should it be ignored, and the other elements
processed, or should the
			complete operation     failed?)=20
		=09
			<PRC> The "Mandatory to implement" bit above
could address this issue.
			If an unrecognized message element is found to
have the bit set, then
			the whole message needs to be rejected. If the
bit is not set, the=20
			message element may be safely ignored.
		=09
		=09
			5) The config has a concept of "default value"
for each configuration
			attribute. However, the default values are not
clearly specified. This
			needs to be resolved to be able to support
"default values".=20
		=09
			<PRC> Another good point raised by David.
		=09
		=09
			6) the documentation of which "binding specific"
message elements are to
			be included with CAPWAP messages is not
consistent, and is difficult to=20
			follow.
		=09
			<PRC> Has this been addressed in the latest
(-02) document?
		=09
		=09
			7) There are some message elements that cause
"actions". This approach
			to protocol design is problematic and should be
eliminated.=20
		=09
			<PRC> Could you be more specific as well as
provide guidance on what you
			would like to see?
		=09
		=09
			8) The message types are inconsistently named,
and do not follow the
			conventions of well designed protocols. Can the
operations be named=20
			consistently with the following terminology:
			  1) request/response (used to get/set/perform
action)
			  2) report/ack (use to tell the other side
something)
		=09
			<PRC> Could you provide your thoughts on which
messages fall within=20
			which one of your categories?
		=09
		=09
			9) Many of the configuration items, and status
items are not listed in
			one section with definitions. (Well make it two
sections - one for
			CAPWAP and the other which is "binding"
specific.) For example, not all=20
			of the time period lengths are identified and
specified in section 4.5.
		=09
			<PRC> Unfortunately, the document has gone back
and forth a few times
			and before we opt to change the structure of the
document, I'd like to=20
			ensure that we have broad agreement on what we
want - with the
			understanding that we will never make everyone
happy.
		=09
		=09
			10) each operation should have listed in which
states it can be sent and
			received
		=09
			<PRC> I do not understand your comment.
		=09
		=09
			11) All strings, such as WTP location, should be
changed from US-ASCII
			encoding to UTF-8 encoding.
		=09
			<PRC> Agreed.
		=09
			12) The term "mobile" is not really accurate
when describing wireless=20
			interfaces, since wireless does not imply
mobile. Can we just use
			the techie term "STA" instead.
		=09
			<PRC> I agree we should use the term Station, or
STA for short.
		=09
		=09
			13) The WTP Descriptor message element contains
too much information,=20
			lacks clarity on the WTP encryption field and
includes version numbers,
			which should be in string form.
		=09
			<PRC> To the first point, I disagree. I think
there is value in knowing
			everything about the WTP. The AC vendors can
expose whatever information=20
			they want, but I don't believe anything is
unnecessary.
		=09
			<PRC> To the second point, this is one of those
areas where the concept
			of the technology binding creates complexity.
Given that we cannot
			simply discuss 802.11i at this point, the only
thing we can do is punt
			to another section in the technology binding
section. That said, I agree
			with Dave that the 802.11 binding section is too
light in this area.
			However, I would much prefer that instead of
trying to address this=20
			specific issue, we discuss whether we should
even be supporting the mode
			of operation where 802.11i is performed in the
AC - especially with the
			introduction of DTLS to secure the data plane.
Right now, it just feels=20
			like we have too many options and I am worried
that interoperability
			will be severely impacted (not to mention
protocol complexity).
		=09
			<PRC> To the last point, I have no issues with
including text stating=20
			that the version numbers should be in string
form.
		=09
		=09
			14) The WTP Descriptor information is not
required at Join time.
		=09
			<PRC> Well, as far as I can tell, I think
there's value in knowing
			whether the WTP can even be supported by the AC.
So the more info is=20
			provided by the WTP, the better the AC can
determine whether it should
			just ignore the WTP or not. This could be done
because it knows that the
			firmware running on the WTP is not compatible,
and it has no new
			firmware to download.
		=09
		=09
			15) Are the values in the WTP Frame Encryption a
capabilities bit, or an
			enum?
		=09
			<PRC> Looks like an enum to me. Not sure what
Dave would prefer the text
			to read. There are various other similar
comments throughout, which I=20
			will not repeat here.
		=09
		=09
			16) The Discovery Response is broken. The AC
SHOULD NOT be providing any
			info to a WTP (or something that claims to be a
WTP). Also, the AC
			should tell the WTP what to do next, with
choices: 1) Ok to try to join,=20
			2) don't try to join, 3) try
discover on a list of
			returned ACs)
		=09
			<PRC> I don't believe there is an issue with
sending the AC's
			information to the WTP, but would solicit input
from the list. That=20
			said, some of the information in the AC
Descriptor is required, such as
			the current load on the AC. No point is trying
to join if he AC
			indicates it's already at max capacity.
			<PRC> I believe if the AC does not return the
response, then it implies=20
			(2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is handled during
the join or configure
			process, which I believe is right.
		=09
		=09
			17) Is AC Name text?
		=09
			<PRC> Yes, and same with WTP Name.
		=09
		=09
			18) Primary Discovery are not required.=20
		=09
			<PRC> Disagree. Required for failover.
		=09
		=09
			19) The text does not make it clear that the
contents of the WTP
			Location is informative only, and as Dave calls
it, a "scratchpad".
		=09
			<PRC> Well, to be honest, I thought the example
"next to the fridge"=20
			made it clear that the information did not
derive from any scientific
			formula. The description also states this is a
user-defined. I believe
			this should be good enough.
		=09
		=09
			20) Session is not required
		=09
			<PRC> I believe you may be correct that with the
transition to DTLS,
			this is no longer required.
		=09
		=09
			21) need to send "common name" as found in the
WTP CERT so that the AC
			can verify
		=09
			<PRC> The protocol currently relies on the MAC
address being the key
			that binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't
see a need to change
			this.
		=09
		=09
			22) Result code in Join Response is not
sufficient, for instance WTP HW=20
			not supported.
		=09
			<PRC> Well, the protocol does not require this
because the Discovery
			Response would never be sent (as the protocol
stands today).
		=09
		=09
			23) AC IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering,
which is unnecessary.=20
		=09
			<PRC> Agreed.
		=09
		=09
			24) Change Echo to Keepalive or heartbeat.
		=09
			<PRC> I call it potato....
		=09
		=09
			25) What if all of the message elements do not
fit within a single
			CAPWAP control frame.=20
		=09
			<PRC> We should address this.
		=09
		=09
			26) AC Name with Index is all messed up...
		=09
			<PRC> Not really. You simply include more than
one, and the index field
			is clearly the priority. Don't understand the
Multi-AC comment. No=20
			inter-AC protocol implied here.
		=09
		=09
			27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not
configure.
		=09
			<PRC> Agreed, but wonder even more why we are
duplicating this
			information across both the WTP Descriptor and
the WTP Board Data=20
			message elements.
		=09
		=09
			28) The WTP Static IPv4 Address should not have
the Static bit, but
			instead state that 0.0.0.0 <http://0.0.0.0/>
means a static address is not to be used.
		=09
			<PRC> I don't have an issue with this request,
but in the end we have=20
			the same function. The reason why I state this
is that we can refine
			this protocol until the cows come home, and at
one point we need to draw=20
			a line in the sand.
		=09
		=09
			29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join,
and the reasons listed=20
			are not clear enough.
		=09
			<PRC> Doesn't really matter whether this is
included in the
			configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees
to move it. We can=20
			clarify some of the reasons, as long as it
provides value.=20
		=09
		=09
			30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration
message element's BSSID
			field should be an array.
		=09
			<PRC> Disagree.
		=09
		=09
			30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration
message element's Country
			Code is not clear enough.
		=09
			<PRC> The text points to the actual MIB element
in the 802.11-1999
			standard, which very clearly defines the
contents of the field. I don't=20
			think there's value in replicating the format of
this field in the=20
			CAPWAP standard.
		=09
		=09
			31) There seems like an awful lot of additional
configuration message
			elements that need to be specified here!
		=09
			<PRC> Having built a protocol based on this,
it's not clear to me what's=20
			missing. I think it would be useful if you
provided concrete details on
			what's missing.
		=09
		=09
			32) Configuration Status is just plain broken
because any configuration=20
			change operation may fail and there is no
response to the=20
			configuration changes specified in this command.
		=09
			<PRC> There certainly is - I guess I don't
understand the concern.
		=09
		=09
			33) Use of Change State Event should instead be
Radio Admin State.=20
		=09
			<PRC> Perhaps the two are not described
properly. The first is used by=20
			the WTP to inform the AC that something has
occurred with a radio. The
			second is used by the AC to enable/disable a
radio.
		=09
		=09
			34) Report Timer needs to be in section 4.5 or
11
		=09
			<PRC> ok
		=09
		=09
			35) Should Idle Timeout be per radio, or per
WTP, and should the value
			be defined in section 4.5 or 11.
		=09
			<PRC> Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine as
it is.=20
		=09
		=09
			36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and should
be removed.=20
		=09
			<PRC> Disagree. I believe it is necessary to
create enough resiliency in
			the protocol/service.
		=09
		=09
			37) How are the "Rate Set" and "Supported Rates"
encoded.=20
		=09
			<PRC> This was fixed in the -02=20
		=09
		=09
			38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the
configuration, but instead in the
			join.
		=09
			<PRC> Not sure this really matters....
		=09
		=09
			39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so strange and
is being managed like no=20
			other configuration data.
		=09
			<PRC> I do not understand the comment
		=09
		=09
			40) Decryption Error Report Period is not
defined in section 4.5 or 11
		=09
			<PRC> ok, and note that the information has been
moved to the IEEE=20
			802.11 RSNA Error Report From Mobile
		=09
		=09
			41) Configuration Update Response. today, there
are primarily two types
			of configuration models. The first is when
config is changed, it is only
			changed in the volatile copy (the memory or
running). An explicit=20
			command is needed to save the config to
nonvolatile storage. The second
			model has config both running (volatile) and
saved (nonvolatile) config
			changed when a config change is made. And there
might be a special
			command to have a config change apply to only
one. In this case, there
			is no need for a "save config to nonvolatile"
command. It is not clear
			what is suppose to be supported here in CAPWAP,
and how does CAPWAP=20
			support devices with no or very limited
nonvolatile storage for config!
		=09
			<PRC> CAPWAP does not support WTPs with no
nonvolatile storage. The
			protocol has the AC push configs to the WTP,
which saves them at the=20
			time they are received. I do not believe
anything else is required.
		=09
		=09
			42) Configuration Update Response includes the
Result Code message
			element, which includes values that do not
appear to be relevant for=20
			this message, and there are plenty of other
failure cases
		=09
			<PRC> ok, but note that we are sharing a common
message element. Any
			suggestions on how to address your issue?
		=09
		=09
			43) Change State Event Report. This seems a
little silly to be sent in=20
			the "configure" state. It seems only appropriate
for the "run" state.
			Some might argue that even in the "run" state it
shouldn't be sent after
			a "config update" request that changes the
operational state. However,=20
			in the "run" state, it may take a while to have
the operational state
			change to follow the admin state. Thus, I think
it is OK in the "run"
			state after config changes."
		=09
			<PRC> I believe this was addressed in -02.=20
		=09
		=09
			44) Clear Config Request. this operation has
several problems, which
			include:
			   1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec says that
this can only be done in
			the "run" state. This is silly. It should also
be possible in the=20
			"configure" state.
			<PRC> I wonder why the AC would even consider
clearing the WTP's state
			before it even knows how it is configured.
		=09
			   2) the value of "manufacturing defaults" is
not defined, and a poor=20
			term to use, since it implies that that each
manufacturer can have
			different values. If so, then the AC will have
no knowledge of the
			config on the WTP! The problem of "default
config values" has already be=20
			mentioned above. After each config attribute has
been defined with a
			default value, then the proper term would be
"CAPWAP config defaults".
			<PRC> Yes, you've raised this point already, and
I agree that it does=20
			need to be addressed.
		=09
			   3) This operation is not defined to have a
response. This is broken,
			since any config change can fail. Also, it is
not defined what happens
			next. Does this cause the WTP to reboot an start
a "clean discovery"?=20
			<PRC> This was addressed in -02
		=09
		=09
			45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are actually
three different "Image
			Data Request" messages. Which one is determined
by which of the
			three message elements is contained. This is
completely silly! There=20
			should be three separate operations!
Additionally, how does the WTP know
			which image to get? The AC should be making that
decision.
		=09
			<PRC> I believe the WTP is the only device that
knows what it's filename=20
			should be. Why would an AC vendor know about
file naming conventions
			used by the WTP vendors? I believe your other
issues are discussed in
			the next items.
		=09
		=09
			46) Image Data Response. this is silly. This
operation can fail! There=20
			needs to be message element that indicates the
result.
		=09
			<PRC> How so? This is only used to send firmware
to the WTP. Not clear
			what could fail... Reading the image from flash?
		=09
		=09
			47) Image Data Request. when starting over again
at the WTP start state,=20
			the WTP shouldn't use the "normal" discovery
process, but instead "fast
			track" a connection back to the AC that just
downloaded the image. With
			a little more          work, we could probably
figure out a way to reuse=20
			the old DTLS session.
		=09
			<PRC> To what gain? What is so expensive about
the discovery, and what
			happened if the AC was not longer reachable?
		=09
		=09
			48) opcode - if this is here, might as well also
have a value that=20
			indicates last block of the image file, instead
of looking at the block
			size.
		=09
			<PRC> But we're just changing for the sake of
changing - the protocol
			works as-is.
		=09
		=09
			49) since this operation does not have the block
number as a parameter,=20
			the WTP must determine the block number via the
CAPWAP message header
			sequence number.  NOTE: DTLS does not provide
in-order delivery of
			packets. Also, this requires the WTP to remember
state. This message
			element should be re-engineered to have the
following subfields:=20
			[edited]
		=09
			<PRC> The control header includes a sequence
number, and while we can
			change the current protocol to match your
recommendations, the protocol
			does work. If it ain't broken...
		=09
		=09
			50) Image Data Response. this is silly. This
operation can fail!  For=20
			example, the WTP can run out of space to store
the block, or
			there could be a failure in writing the block to
storage. (Or as "Image
			Data Request"(9.1a) is presently specified, the
checksum match could=20
			fail.) There needs to be message element that
indicates the result.)
			Note: don't need a block number field, since
request and responses are
			paired.
		=09
			<PRC> We can include a result code
		=09
		=09
			51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief=20
		=09
			<PRC> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-).
Seriously, the protocol
			does work, so what exactly are you looking for?
		=09
		=09
			52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This
operation can fail! There
			needs to be message element that indicates the
result.
		=09
			<PRC> See above comment.
		=09
			53) Reset Request. ...
		=09
			<PRC> The comment is irrelevant now that Clear
Config has changed.
		=09
		=09
			54) Reset Response. this is silly. This
operation can fail! There needs
			to be message element that indicates the
result.
		=09
			<PRC> I sense a trend. I will stop including
these messages from now on.
		=09
		=09
			55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this
reported if the condition
			remains?
		=09
			<PRC> Only required once, I think, but we may
want to include some text
			covering that.
		=09
		=09
			56) the list of events seems understated!=20
		=09
			<PRC> Text and conditions please
		=09
		=09
			57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have -
remove.
		=09
			<PRC> Disagree. Providing diagnostics
capabilities is required.
		=09
		=09
			58) Mobile Config Request. the actual details of
how this works on both=20
			splitMAC and especially localMAC are not well
specified. That is, only
			the figures and text in sections 11.1.1 and
11.1.2 provide any clue as
			to events that would cause an AC to send this
message type. Also, there=20
			are restrictions on combinations of parameters
that can be included in
			the message.
		=09
			<PRC> I wonder whether other folks agree that
more details are required.
		=09
		=09
			59) it doesn't say if one message can be used to
update more than one=20
			STA. It should be able.
		=09
			<PRC> No, otherwise you end up with the problem
of associating specific
			message elements with a given mobile. One mobile
per request.
		=09
		=09
			60) IEEE 802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC
address be included so=20
			this message element can be matched with a
(4.4.8)Add Mobile message
			element?
		=09
			<PRC> I believe this is to your previous point,
but the protocol assumes
			one mobile per request.
		=09
		=09
			61) IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for
data traffic to the AC? If
			so, then why is this an 802.11 message element
		=09
			<PRC> Intended to be a way to push policies to
the WTP to prioritize
			mobile traffic.
		=09
		=09
			62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why is a
new message type that is
			802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11 WLANs?
It seems like the
			existing "(8.4)Configuration Update Request"
message could be used.
		=09
			<PRC> To be more specific only.=20
		=09
		=09
			63) note here there are information elements to
create, delete, and
			modify WLANs. However, for message type
"(10.1)Mobile Config Request",
			there is only add and delete (and the "add" used
to modify).=20
		=09
			<PRC> Correct. The protocol requires the AC to
resend a new add with a
			different policy. No specific reason, but if
this is deemed
			inconsistent, we could change it.
		=09
		=09
			64) IEEE 802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping
of WLAN IDs to BSSIDs=20
			seems like it needs a little more work
		=09
			<PRC> What exactly would you like to see?
		=09
		=09
			Pat Calhoun
			CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
			Cisco Systems
		=09
		=09
		=09
			> -----Original Message-----=20
			> From: David T. Perkins
[mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com]
			> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 4:31 PM=20
			> To: capwap@frascone.com=20
			> Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01
operations
			>
			> HI,=20
			>
			> I've attached a long file that summarizes the
operations in
			> CAPWAP-01.
			>
			> Enjoy,
			> /david t. perkins=20
			>
=09
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			To unsubscribe or modify your subscription
options, please visit:
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		=09



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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2976" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D942314816-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>ok=20
with me.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Dorothy Stanley=20
  [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 29, =
2006=20
  2:34 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Michael Montemurro<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  capwap@frascone.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to =
Issue=20
  170 "Result code in JoinResponse is not sufficient" /was Re: A =
commentary=20
  onCAPWAP-01 operations<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>All,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Issue 170 is listed below:</DIV>
  <DIV><EM></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><EM>22) Result code in Join Response is not sufficient, for =
instance WTP=20
  HW<BR>not supported.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Well, the protocol does not =
require=20
  this because the Discovery<BR>Response would never be sent (as the =
protocol=20
  stands today). </EM></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>The proposed resolution to Issue 170 is:</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>If&nbsp; Discover Request/Response messages are sent, then the=20
  current</DIV>
  <DIV>Result codes are sufficient. But if the Discover Request/Response =

  messages</DIV>
  <DIV>are not sent - they are indicated as optional in the text, then =
the=20
  commenter</DIV>
  <DIV>is correct.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Insert the following result code value at the end of =
4.4.28:</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>8&nbsp; Failure (Join Failure, WTP Hardware not supported)</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Comments welcome.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Thanks,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Dorothy<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 6/30/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Michael=20
  Montemurro</B> &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com">montemurro.michael@gmail.com=
</A>&gt;=20
  wrote:</SPAN>=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
#ccc 1px solid">
    <DIV>David, Pat,</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points <SPAN =
class=3Dst id=3Dst=20
    name=3D"st">in</SPAN> David's email. Happy hunting!</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Mike<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3De id=3Dq_10c257cfe921fd20_1>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 6/27/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Pat=20
    Calhoun (pacalhou)</B> &lt;<A=20
    onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com" =
target=3D_blank>pcalhoun@cisco.com </A>&gt;=20
    wrote:</SPAN>=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
#ccc 1px solid">Going=20
      through David's lengthy document, he has raised an =
interesting<BR>number=20
      of points that I believe require issues to be created. At one =
<BR>point=20
      I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in order to be brief, =
and<BR>introducing=20
      my own numbering scheme.<BR><BR>1) Can message elements be in any =
order?=20
      (I believe they should be)<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes, and I suspect =
we need=20
      to include text to make it more <BR>obvious.<BR><BR><BR>2) Are all =

      specified message elements required? (The obvious answer =
is<BR>"yes", but=20
      this document doesn't discuss versioning. For example, what<BR>if =
in a new=20
      version of CAPWAP an additional message element was to be =
<BR>added. Would=20
      a new message type be created and the additional =
message<BR>element added=20
      to it, or the existing type reused?)<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; This is a =
great=20
      question, and one that does need to be addressed<BR>in the spec. =
In the=20
      Diameter protocol we dealt with this issue by <BR>including a =
"Mandatory=20
      to implement" bit. If any AVP was received, whose<BR>bit was set, =
yet was=20
      not recognized, then the request had to =
be<BR>rejected.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      We could consider something similar here, but I believe with the=20
      <BR>firmware download component of the protocol it may be less of =
an issue=20
      -<BR>although not guaranteed. I would hope (and expect) that as =
the=20
      CAPWAP<BR>protocol extends, the AC would push new firmware to the =
WTP.=20
      This does <BR>require that the initial part of the state machine =
be fairly=20
      static, and<BR>this could be an area where the "Mandatory to =
implement"=20
      bit could be<BR>useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to =
older=20
      protocol behavior. <BR><BR>3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of=20
      indicating which message elements<BR>can be =
repeated.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      Another good point. When we list the message elements, we =
should<BR>note=20
      whether the frequently is 0-1 (meaning absent or once), 1 (only =
<BR>once)=20
      or 0+ (meaning any number of them could be present.<BR><BR><BR>4) =
Can=20
      "additional" message elements be added to a message? (I =
believe<BR>so for=20
      reporting capabilities, statistics, and&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
events.=20
      For<BR>configuration, there is nothing in the protocol that says =
what=20
      happens<BR>when one end gets an =
configuration&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      element it doesn't know about.<BR>Should it be ignored, and the =
other=20
      elements processed, or should the<BR>complete=20
      operation&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; failed?) <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; The =

      "Mandatory to implement" bit above could address this issue.<BR>If =
an=20
      unrecognized message element is found to have the bit set, =
then<BR>the=20
      whole message needs to be rejected. If the bit is not set, the =
<BR>message=20
      element may be safely ignored.<BR><BR><BR>5) The config has a =
concept of=20
      "default value" for each configuration<BR>attribute. However, the =
default=20
      values are not clearly specified. This<BR>needs to be resolved to =
be able=20
      to support "default values". <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Another good =
point raised=20
      by David.<BR><BR><BR>6) the documentation of which "binding =
specific"=20
      message elements are to<BR>be included with CAPWAP messages is not =

      consistent, and is difficult to <BR>follow.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Has =
this=20
      been addressed in the latest (-02) document?<BR><BR><BR>7) There =
are some=20
      message elements that cause "actions". This approach<BR>to =
protocol design=20
      is problematic and should be eliminated. <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Could =
you be=20
      more specific as well as provide guidance on what you<BR>would =
like to=20
      see?<BR><BR><BR>8) The message types are inconsistently named, and =
do not=20
      follow the<BR>conventions of well designed protocols. Can the =
operations=20
      be named <BR>consistently with the following=20
      terminology:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;1) request/response (used to =
get/set/perform=20
      action)<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;2) report/ack (use to tell the other side=20
      something)<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Could you provide your thoughts on =
which=20
      messages fall within <BR>which one of your =
categories?<BR><BR><BR>9) Many=20
      of the configuration items, and status items are not listed =
in<BR>one=20
      section with definitions. (Well make it two sections - one =
for<BR>CAPWAP=20
      and the other which is "binding" specific.) For example, not all =
<BR>of=20
      the time period lengths are identified and specified in section=20
      4.5.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Unfortunately, the document has gone back =
and=20
      forth a few times<BR>and before we opt to change the structure of =
the=20
      document, I'd like to <BR>ensure that we have broad agreement on =
what we=20
      want - with the<BR>understanding that we will never make everyone=20
      happy.<BR><BR><BR>10) each operation should have listed in which =
states it=20
      can be sent and<BR>received<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I do not understand =
your=20
      comment.<BR><BR><BR>11) All strings, such as WTP location, should =
be=20
      changed from US-ASCII<BR>encoding to UTF-8 =
encoding.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      Agreed.<BR><BR>12) The term "mobile" is not really accurate when=20
      describing wireless <BR>interfaces, since wireless does not=20
      imply&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;mobile. Can we just =
use<BR>the=20
      techie term "STA" instead.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I agree we should =
use the=20
      term Station, or STA for short.<BR><BR><BR>13) The WTP Descriptor =
message=20
      element contains too much information, <BR>lacks clarity on the =
WTP=20
      encryption field and includes version numbers,<BR>which should be =
in=20
      string form.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To the first point, I disagree. I =
think=20
      there is value in knowing<BR>everything about the WTP. The AC =
vendors can=20
      expose whatever information <BR>they want, but I don't believe =
anything is=20
      unnecessary.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To the second point, this is one =
of those=20
      areas where the concept<BR>of the technology binding creates =
complexity.=20
      Given that we cannot<BR>simply discuss 802.11i at this point, the =
only=20
      thing we can do is punt<BR>to another section in the technology =
binding=20
      section. That said, I agree<BR>with Dave that the 802.11 binding =
section=20
      is too light in this area.<BR>However, I would much prefer that =
instead of=20
      trying to address this <BR>specific issue, we discuss whether we =
should=20
      even be supporting the mode<BR>of operation where 802.11i is =
performed in=20
      the AC - especially with the<BR>introduction of DTLS to secure the =
data=20
      plane. Right now, it just feels <BR>like we have too many options =
and I am=20
      worried that interoperability<BR>will be severely impacted (not to =
mention=20
      protocol complexity).<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To the last point, I have =
no=20
      issues with including text stating <BR>that the version numbers =
should be=20
      in string form.<BR><BR><BR>14) The WTP Descriptor information is =
not=20
      required at Join time.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Well, as far as I can =
tell, I=20
      think there's value in knowing<BR>whether the WTP can even be =
supported by=20
      the AC. So the more info is <BR>provided by the WTP, the better =
the AC can=20
      determine whether it should<BR>just ignore the WTP or not. This =
could be=20
      done because it knows that the<BR>firmware running on the WTP is =
not=20
      compatible, and it has no new<BR>firmware to =
download.<BR><BR><BR>15) Are=20
      the values in the WTP Frame Encryption a capabilities bit, or=20
      an<BR>enum?<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Looks like an enum to me. Not sure =
what=20
      Dave would prefer the text<BR>to read. There are various other =
similar=20
      comments throughout, which I <BR>will not repeat =
here.<BR><BR><BR>16) The=20
      Discovery Response is broken. The AC SHOULD NOT be providing =
any<BR>info=20
      to a WTP (or something that claims to be a WTP). Also, the =
AC<BR>should=20
      tell the WTP what to do next, with choices: 1) Ok to try to join, =
<BR>2)=20
      don't try to join, 3)=20
      =
try&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      discover on a list of<BR>returned ACs)<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I don't =
believe=20
      there is an issue with sending the AC's<BR>information to the WTP, =
but=20
      would solicit input from the list. That <BR>said, some of the =
information=20
      in the AC Descriptor is required, such as<BR>the current load on =
the AC.=20
      No point is trying to join if he AC<BR>indicates it's already at =
max=20
      capacity.<BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe if the AC does not return the =
response,=20
      then it implies <BR>(2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is handled =
during the=20
      join or configure<BR>process, which I believe is =
right.<BR><BR><BR>17) Is=20
      AC Name text?<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes, and same with WTP=20
      Name.<BR><BR><BR>18) Primary Discovery are not required.=20
      <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. Required for =
failover.<BR><BR><BR>19) The=20
      text does not make it clear that the contents of the =
WTP<BR>Location is=20
      informative only, and as Dave calls it, a =
"scratchpad".<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      Well, to be honest, I thought the example "next to the fridge" =
<BR>made it=20
      clear that the information did not derive from any =
scientific<BR>formula.=20
      The description also states this is a user-defined. I =
believe<BR>this=20
      should be good enough.<BR><BR><BR>20) Session is not=20
      required<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe you may be correct that with =
the=20
      transition to DTLS,<BR>this is no longer required.<BR><BR><BR>21) =
need to=20
      send "common name" as found in the WTP CERT so that the AC<BR>can=20
      verify<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; The protocol currently relies on the MAC =
address=20
      being the key<BR>that binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't =
see a need=20
      to change<BR>this.<BR><BR><BR>22) Result code in Join Response is =
not=20
      sufficient, for instance WTP HW <BR>not =
supported.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      Well, the protocol does not require this because the =
Discovery<BR>Response=20
      would never be sent (as the protocol stands today).<BR><BR><BR>23) =
AC=20
      IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering, which is unnecessary.=20
      <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Agreed.<BR><BR><BR>24) Change Echo to =
Keepalive or=20
      heartbeat.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I call it potato....<BR><BR><BR>25) =
What if=20
      all of the message elements do not fit within a single<BR>CAPWAP =
control=20
      frame. <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; We should address this.<BR><BR><BR>26) =
AC Name=20
      with Index is all messed up...<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Not really. You =
simply=20
      include more than one, and the index field<BR>is clearly the =
priority.=20
      Don't understand the Multi-AC comment. No <BR>inter-AC protocol =
implied=20
      here.<BR><BR><BR>27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not=20
      configure.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Agreed, but wonder even more why we =
are=20
      duplicating this<BR>information across both the WTP Descriptor and =
the WTP=20
      Board Data <BR>message elements.<BR><BR><BR>28) The WTP Static =
IPv4=20
      Address should not have the Static bit, but<BR>instead state that =
<A=20
      onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"http://0.0.0.0/" target=3D_blank>0.0.0.0 </A>means a =
static address is=20
      not to be used.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I don't have an issue with this =

      request, but in the end we have <BR>the same function. The reason =
why I=20
      state this is that we can refine<BR>this protocol until the cows =
come=20
      home, and at one point we need to draw <BR>a line in the=20
      sand.<BR><BR><BR>29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, =
and the=20
      reasons listed <BR>are not clear enough.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; =
Doesn't really=20
      matter whether this is included in the<BR>configuration or the =
join, but=20
      if the WG agrees to move it. We can <BR>clarify some of the =
reasons, as=20
      long as it provides value. <BR><BR><BR>30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP =
Radio=20
      Configuration message element's BSSID<BR>field should be an=20
      array.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree.<BR><BR><BR>30) The IEEE 802.11 =
WTP=20
      Radio Configuration message element's Country<BR>Code is not clear =

      enough.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; The text points to the actual MIB =
element in=20
      the 802.11-1999<BR>standard, which very clearly defines the =
contents of=20
      the field. I don't <BR>think there's value in replicating the =
format of=20
      this field in the <BR>CAPWAP standard.<BR><BR><BR>31) There seems =
like an=20
      awful lot of additional configuration message<BR>elements that =
need to be=20
      specified here!<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Having built a protocol based =
on this,=20
      it's not clear to me what's <BR>missing. I think it would be =
useful if you=20
      provided concrete details on<BR>what's missing.<BR><BR><BR>32)=20
      Configuration Status is just plain broken because any =
configuration=20
      <BR>change operation may fail and there is=20
      no&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
response to=20
      the <BR>configuration changes specified in this=20
      command.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; There certainly is - I guess I don't=20
      understand the concern.<BR><BR><BR>33) Use of Change State Event =
should=20
      instead be Radio Admin State. <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Perhaps the two =
are not=20
      described properly. The first is used by <BR>the WTP to inform the =
AC that=20
      something has occurred with a radio. The<BR>second is used by the =
AC to=20
      enable/disable a radio.<BR><BR><BR>34) Report Timer needs to be in =
section=20
      4.5 or 11<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; ok<BR><BR><BR>35) Should Idle Timeout =
be per=20
      radio, or per WTP, and should the value<BR>be defined in section =
4.5 or=20
      11.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine as =
it is.=20
      <BR><BR><BR>36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and should be =
removed.=20
      <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. I believe it is necessary to create =
enough=20
      resiliency in<BR>the protocol/service.<BR><BR><BR>37) How are the =
"Rate=20
      Set" and "Supported Rates" encoded. <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; This was =
fixed in=20
      the -02 <BR><BR><BR>38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the =
configuration,=20
      but instead in the<BR>join.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Not sure this =
really=20
      matters....<BR><BR><BR>39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so strange =
and is=20
      being managed like no <BR>other configuration =
data.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I=20
      do not understand the comment<BR><BR><BR>40) Decryption Error =
Report=20
      Period is not defined in section 4.5 or 11<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; ok, =
and note=20
      that the information has been moved to the IEEE <BR>802.11 RSNA =
Error=20
      Report From Mobile<BR><BR><BR>41) Configuration Update Response. =
today,=20
      there are primarily two types<BR>of configuration models. The =
first is=20
      when config is changed, it is only<BR>changed in the volatile copy =
(the=20
      memory or running). An explicit <BR>command is needed to save the =
config=20
      to nonvolatile storage. The second<BR>model has config both =
running=20
      (volatile) and saved (nonvolatile) config<BR>changed when a config =
change=20
      is made. And there might be a special<BR>command to have a config =
change=20
      apply to only one. In this case, there<BR>is no need for a "save =
config to=20
      nonvolatile" command. It is not clear<BR>what is suppose to be =
supported=20
      here in CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP <BR>support devices with no or =
very=20
      limited nonvolatile storage for config!<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; CAPWAP =
does not=20
      support WTPs with no nonvolatile storage. The<BR>protocol has the =
AC push=20
      configs to the WTP, which saves them at the <BR>time they are =
received. I=20
      do not believe anything else is required.<BR><BR><BR>42) =
Configuration=20
      Update Response includes the Result Code message<BR>element, which =

      includes values that do not appear to be relevant for <BR>this =
message,=20
      and there are plenty of other failure cases<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; ok, =
but=20
      note that we are sharing a common message element. =
Any<BR>suggestions on=20
      how to address your issue?<BR><BR><BR>43) Change State Event =
Report. This=20
      seems a little silly to be sent in <BR>the "configure" state. It =
seems=20
      only appropriate for the "run" state.<BR>Some might argue that =
even in the=20
      "run" state it shouldn't be sent after<BR>a "config update" =
request that=20
      changes the operational state. However, <BR>in the "run" state, it =
may=20
      take a while to have the operational state<BR>change to follow the =
admin=20
      state. Thus, I think it is OK in the "run"<BR>state after config=20
      changes."<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe this was addressed in -02.=20
      <BR><BR><BR>44) Clear Config Request. this operation has several =
problems,=20
      which<BR>include:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec =
says=20
      that this can only be done in<BR>the "run" state. This is silly. =
It should=20
      also be possible in the <BR>"configure" state.<BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I =
wonder why=20
      the AC would even consider clearing the WTP's state<BR>before it =
even=20
      knows how it is configured.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; 2) the value of=20
      "manufacturing defaults" is not defined, and a poor <BR>term to =
use, since=20
      it implies that that each manufacturer can have<BR>different =
values. If=20
      so, then the AC will have no knowledge of the<BR>config on the =
WTP! The=20
      problem of "default config values" has already be <BR>mentioned =
above.=20
      After each config attribute has been defined with a<BR>default =
value, then=20
      the proper term would be "CAPWAP config defaults".<BR>&lt;PRC&gt; =
Yes,=20
      you've raised this point already, and I agree that it does =
<BR>need to be=20
      addressed.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; 3) This operation is not defined to =
have a=20
      response. This is broken,<BR>since any config change can fail. =
Also, it is=20
      not defined what happens<BR>next. Does this cause the WTP to =
reboot an=20
      start a "clean discovery"? <BR>&lt;PRC&gt; This was addressed in=20
      -02<BR><BR><BR>45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are actually =
three=20
      different "Image<BR>Data Request" messages. Which one is=20
      =
determined&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;by =

      which of the<BR>three message elements is contained. This is =
completely=20
      silly! There <BR>should be three separate operations! =
Additionally, how=20
      does the WTP know<BR>which image to get? The AC should be making =
that=20
      decision.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe the WTP is the only device =
that=20
      knows what it's filename <BR>should be. Why would an AC vendor =
know about=20
      file naming conventions<BR>used by the WTP vendors? I believe your =
other=20
      issues are discussed in<BR>the next items.<BR><BR><BR>46) Image =
Data=20
      Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There <BR>needs =
to be=20
      message element that indicates=20
      =
the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<BR=
><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      How so? This is only used to send firmware to the WTP. Not =
clear<BR>what=20
      could fail... Reading the image from flash?<BR><BR><BR>47) Image =
Data=20
      Request. when starting over again at the WTP start state, <BR>the =
WTP=20
      shouldn't use the "normal" discovery process, but instead =
"fast<BR>track"=20
      a connection back to the AC that just downloaded the image. =
With<BR>a=20
      little=20
      =
more&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;work, we =

      could probably figure out a way to reuse <BR>the old DTLS=20
      session.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To what gain? What is so expensive =
about the=20
      discovery, and what<BR>happened if the AC was not longer=20
      reachable?<BR><BR><BR>48) opcode - if this is here, might as well =
also=20
      have a value that <BR>indicates last block of the image file, =
instead of=20
      looking at the block<BR>size.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; But we're just =
changing=20
      for the sake of changing - the protocol<BR>works =
as-is.<BR><BR><BR>49)=20
      since this operation does not have the block number as a =
parameter,=20
      <BR>the WTP must determine the block number via the CAPWAP message =

      header<BR>sequence number.&nbsp;&nbsp;NOTE: DTLS does not provide =
in-order=20
      delivery of<BR>packets. Also, this requires the WTP to remember =
state.=20
      This message<BR>element should be re-engineered to have the =
following=20
      subfields: <BR>[edited]<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; The control header =
includes a=20
      sequence number, and while we can<BR>change the current protocol =
to match=20
      your recommendations, the protocol<BR>does work. If it ain't=20
      broken...<BR><BR><BR>50) Image Data Response. this is silly. This=20
      operation can fail!&nbsp;&nbsp;For <BR>example, the WTP can run =
out of=20
      space to=20
      =
store&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the=20
      block, or<BR>there could be a failure in writing the block to =
storage. (Or=20
      as "Image<BR>Data Request"(9.1a) is presently specified, the =
checksum=20
      match could <BR>fail.) There needs to be message element that =
indicates=20
      the result.)<BR>Note: don't need a block number field, since =
request and=20
      responses are<BR>paired.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; We can include a =
result=20
      code<BR><BR><BR>51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief=20
      <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-). =
Seriously,=20
      the protocol<BR>does work, so what exactly are you looking=20
      for?<BR><BR><BR>52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This =
operation can=20
      fail! There<BR>needs to be message element that indicates=20
      =
the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<BR=
><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      See above comment.<BR><BR>53) Reset Request. =
...<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; The=20
      comment is irrelevant now that Clear Config has =
changed.<BR><BR><BR>54)=20
      Reset Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There =
needs<BR>to=20
      be message element that indicates=20
      =
the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<BR=
><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      I sense a trend. I will stop including these messages from now=20
      on.<BR><BR><BR>55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this =
reported if=20
      the condition<BR>remains?<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Only required once, I =
think,=20
      but we may want to include some text<BR>covering =
that.<BR><BR><BR>56) the=20
      list of events seems understated! <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Text and =
conditions=20
      please<BR><BR><BR>57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have -=20
      remove.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. Providing diagnostics =
capabilities is=20
      required.<BR><BR><BR>58) Mobile Config Request. the actual details =
of how=20
      this works on both <BR>splitMAC and especially localMAC are not =
well=20
      specified. That is, only<BR>the figures and text in sections =
11.1.1 and=20
      11.1.2 provide any clue as<BR>to events that would cause an AC to =
send=20
      this message type. Also, there <BR>are restrictions on =
combinations of=20
      parameters that can be included in<BR>the =
message.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I=20
      wonder whether other folks agree that more details are=20
      required.<BR><BR><BR>59) it doesn't say if one message can be used =
to=20
      update more than one <BR>STA. It should be =
able.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; No,=20
      otherwise you end up with the problem of associating =
specific<BR>message=20
      elements with a given mobile. One mobile per =
request.<BR><BR><BR>60) IEEE=20
      802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC address be included so =
<BR>this=20
      message element can be matched with a (4.4.8)Add Mobile=20
      message<BR>element?<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe this is to your =
previous=20
      point, but the protocol assumes<BR>one mobile per =
request.<BR><BR><BR>61)=20
      IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for data traffic to the AC?=20
      If<BR>so, then why is this an 802.11 message =
element<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      Intended to be a way to push policies to the WTP to =
prioritize<BR>mobile=20
      traffic.<BR><BR><BR>62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why is a =
new=20
      message type that is<BR>802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11 =
WLANs? It=20
      seems like the<BR>existing "(8.4)Configuration Update Request" =
message=20
      could be used.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To be more specific only.=20
      <BR><BR><BR>63) note here there are information elements to =
create,=20
      delete, and<BR>modify WLANs. However, for message type =
"(10.1)Mobile=20
      Config Request",<BR>there is only add and delete (and the "add" =
used to=20
      modify). <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Correct. The protocol requires the AC =
to=20
      resend a new add with a<BR>different policy. No specific reason, =
but if=20
      this is deemed<BR>inconsistent, we could change it.<BR><BR><BR>64) =
IEEE=20
      802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping of WLAN IDs to BSSIDs =
<BR>seems=20
      like it needs a little more work<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; What exactly =
would you=20
      like to see?<BR><BR><BR>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
      Unit<BR>Cisco Systems<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----=20
      <BR>&gt; From: David T. Perkins [mailto:<A=20
      onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com"=20
      target=3D_blank>dperkins@dsperkins.com</A>]<BR>&gt; Sent: =
Thursday, June 22,=20
      2006 4:31 PM <BR>&gt; To: <A=20
      onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com" =
target=3D_blank>capwap@frascone.com=20
      </A><BR>&gt; Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01=20
      operations<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; HI, <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I've attached a =
long file=20
      that summarizes the operations in<BR>&gt; =
CAPWAP-01.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
      Enjoy,<BR>&gt; /david t. perkins=20
      =
<BR>&gt;<BR>_____________________________________________________________=
____=20
      <BR>To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please=20
      visit:<BR><A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
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      target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=20
      </A><BR><BR>Archives: <A=20
      onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap"=20
      =
target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap</A><BR></BLOCK=
QUOTE></DIV><BR></SPAN></DIV><BR>________________________________________=
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    unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<BR><A =

    onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
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target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</A><BR>=
<BR>Archives:=20
    <A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] 802.11 Duplicate Removal in Split MAC
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Yes.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Puneet Agarwal [mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com]=20
	Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 12:04 PM
	To: capwap@frascone.com
	Subject: [Capwap] 802.11 Duplicate Removal in Split MAC
=09
=09
	In Split MAC (section 11.1.1),  I assume that 802.11 Duplicate
frame removal is always done by the WTP and a duplicate frame is never
forwarded to the AC. Is this a correct assumption?
	=20
	Thanks.
	=20
	-Puneet


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<DIV><SPAN class=3D888393616-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Yes.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Puneet Agarwal=20
  [mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 26, =
2006=20
  12:04 PM<BR><B>To:</B> capwap@frascone.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Capwap] =
802.11=20
  Duplicate Removal in Split MAC<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D581285218-26092006>In =
Split MAC=20
  (section 11.1.1),&nbsp; I assume that 802.11 Duplicate frame removal =
is always=20
  done by the WTP and a duplicate frame is never forwarded to the AC. Is =
this a=20
  correct assumption?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D581285218-26092006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D581285218-26092006>Thanks.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D581285218-26092006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D581285218-26092006>-Puneet</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY=
></HTML>

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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue 194 - duplicate IPv4
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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The text needs to be clearer than that, I believe. If you are planning
on adding such language, we need to discuss when the WTP considers the
event cleared. A WTP that determines a conflict would generate such an
event, but it could be that the same event occurs, possible with another
host on the network, days later. A single event being triggered the
first time would not be sufficient.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:31 AM
	To: capwap
	Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue 194 - duplicate
IPv4 address.
=09
=09
	I propose that we add a sentence to sections 4.4.19 and 4.4.20
to indicated that the message is transmitted only once.
	=20
	Cheers,
	=20
	Mike


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<DIV><SPAN class=3D411285615-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>The=20
text needs to be clearer than that, I believe. If you are planning on =
adding=20
such language, we need to discuss when the WTP considers the event =
cleared. A=20
WTP that determines a conflict would generate such an event, but it =
could be=20
that the same event occurs, possible with another host on the network, =
days=20
later. A single event being triggered the first time would not be=20
sufficient.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Michael Montemurro=20
  [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, =
September 23,=20
  2006 11:31 AM<BR><B>To:</B> capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Capwap] =
Proposed=20
  resolution to issue 194 - duplicate IPv4 address.<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>I propose that we add a sentence to sections 4.4.19 and 4.4.20 to =

  indicated that the message is transmitted only once.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Mike</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue 127 - usage of the session
	IDfield
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "Michael Montemurro" <montemurro.michael@gmail.com>,
	"capwap" <capwap@frascone.com>
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I disagree with this change, and would ask that the editor explain the
rationale/need for the Session ID in the CAPWAP header when it is part
of the DTLS payload. This will be encrypted, and I therefore fail to
understand what its purpose is. The DTLS session itself should be
sufficient, no?
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:03 PM
	To: capwap
	Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue 127 - usage of
the session IDfield
=09
=09
	I propose we adopt David's proposed resolution and add session
ID back into the header as described in tracker.
	=20
	Cheers,
	=20
	Mike


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<DIV><SPAN class=3D411501516-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
disagree with this change, and would ask that the editor explain the=20
rationale/need for the Session ID in the CAPWAP header when it is part =
of the=20
DTLS payload. This will be encrypted, and I therefore fail to understand =
what=20
its purpose is. The DTLS session itself should be sufficient,=20
no?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Michael Montemurro=20
  [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, =
September 23,=20
  2006 12:03 PM<BR><B>To:</B> capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Capwap] =
Proposed=20
  resolution to issue 127 - usage of the session =
IDfield<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>I propose we adopt David's proposed resolution and add session ID =
back=20
  into the header as described in tracker.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Mike</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "Saravanan Govindan" <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>,
	"Cheng Hong" <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>,
	"Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>,
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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This would require the AC to send additional keying information to the
WTP, since message three needs to be authenticated. So I disagree with
this proposal. The change is much more sinificant than simply leaving
the field zero.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Saravanan Govindan [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com] 
> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 12:08 AM
> To: Cheng Hong; Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman
> Cc: capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> Considerations
> 
> Hi Cheng Hong, Scott,
> 
> I share your concerns for setting the KeyRSC to 0. 
> 
> In my opinion, it is clear that the protocol is "broken" in 
> this case and needs to be fixed. 
> 
> My suggestion is to have the KeyRSC field be updated by the 
> WTP. So the AC could send Message-3 of the 4-way handshake to 
> the WTP with an empty KeyRSC field. The WTP could then 
> correctly update the field, compute the KeyMIC, update 
> Message-3 and then forward it to the STA. 
> 
> Of course, this requires a CAPWAP message from the AC and WTP 
> to exchange the incomplete Message-3. I think this is an 
> acceptable addition because it maintains the integrity of 
> 802.11i exchanges and provides a complete fix to the problem. 
> 
> Saravanan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:21 PM
> To: Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman
> Cc: capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> Considerations
> 
> Hi Scott,
> 
> Some comments below:
> 
> > After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring 
> myself to agree 
> > with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think always using an RSC 
> > value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that we've acknowledged we are 
> > introducing a vulnerability here (however slight), telling 
> > implementors they SHOULD do this just doesn't sit right with me.
> > 
> > An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do better than 
> > always setting this to zero, and explicitly recommending 
> that people 
> > nail this window open just rubs me the wrong way. At least, 
> let's hold 
> > off on this decision until we've clearly defined what statistics we 
> > expect to be available. Seems like if we're going to tell 
> implementors 
> > what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well considered 
> > advice.
> 
> I absolutely agree with you on this point. 
> 
> What I was trying to state in my previous emails was:
> - I would against setting a static value for the KeyRSC as a 
> solution to this issue. 
> - However if the WG decided to go for a static value, the 
> draft should clearly point out that NOT all static value 
> could work (value other than zero may be a problem for 
> interoperability).
> - And the draft needs to clearly point out what is the danger 
> of setting a static KeyRSC value in the security 
> consideration section.
> - Also, the draft should not prohibit other implementation 
> for sync the KeyRSC value between WTP and AC (the CAPWAP 
> standard should not dictate such implementation incompatible). 
> 
> If there is a alternative solution than setting a static 
> KeyRSC value to narrow the window, I would vote for it.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Cheng Hong
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:26 AM
> > To: Margaret Wasserman
> > Cc: capwap
> > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> > Considerations
> > 
> > Hi Margaret,
> > 
> > Comments inline below...
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > >From: Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com>
> > >Sent: Oct 6, 2006 9:39 AM
> > >To: Scott G Kelly <scott@hyperthought.com>
> > >Cc: Cheng Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>, capwap 
> > ><capwap@frascone.com>
> > >Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > Considerations
> > >
> > >
> > >While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal 
> > >implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to the 
> > >protocol portion of the document (as well as the security
> > >considerations) to explain how this is handled.  How about 
> something
> > >like:
> > >
> > >The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of 
> the 4-way 
> > >802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more 
> optimal RSC 
> > >value to use.  Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC
> > value are
> > >outside the scope of this specification.
> > >
> > >I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope that 
> > >implementors figure this out.
> > >
> > >Margaret
> > 
> > After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring 
> myself to agree 
> > with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think always using an RSC 
> > value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that we've acknowledged we are 
> > introducing a vulnerability here (however slight), telling 
> > implementors they SHOULD do this just doesn't sit right with me.
> > 
> > An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do better than 
> > always setting this to zero, and explicitly recommending 
> that people 
> > nail this window open just rubs me the wrong way. At least, 
> let's hold 
> > off on this decision until we've clearly defined what statistics we 
> > expect to be available. Seems like if we're going to tell 
> implementors 
> > what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well considered 
> > advice.
> > 
> > Scott
> > 
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> > 
> > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> > 
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
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I agree with Dorothy's recommendations.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 9:08 AM
	To: capwap
	Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 204: More
General wirelesssupport /was Re: suggestion for Issue # 204,"More
general wireless support"
=09
=09
	All,
=09
	Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components are=20
	listed below.
=09
	Comments please.
=09
	Thanks,
=09
	Dorothy
=09
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
=09
	1) 4.4.38.  WTP Radio Information
=09
	Comment: As the section should be work for any wireless
implement, I suggest the=20
=09
	following value
=09
	 should be moved to 802.11 binding. The value should be defined
by wireless=20
=09
	technology binding.
=09
	      1 - 802.11b:  An IEEE 802.11b radio.
=09
=09
	      2 - 802.11a:  An IEEE 802.11a radio.
=09
	      4 -=20
	802.11g:  An IEEE 802.11g radio.
=09
	      8 - 802.11n:  An IEEE 802.11n radio.
=09
	Proposed Resolution: Move the "need to know" the=20
	802.11 technology specific
	radio types to the 802.11 binding, modifying the WTP Radio
Information element
	as follows:
=09
	IEEE 802.11 Radio Information
=09
	   The IEEE 802.11 radio information message element is used to
communicate the
=09
	   radio information for each IEEE 802.11 radio on the WTP.  The
Discovery Request message MUST
	   include one such message element per radio in the WTP.  The
Radio-
	   Type field is used by the AC to determine which=20
	802.11 technology
	   specific binding is to be used with the WTP.
=09
	   The value contains two fields, as shown.
=09
	      0                   1                   2
3
	      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 0 1
=09
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	     |   Radio ID    |           Radio Type
|
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
=09
	     | Radio Type    |
	     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
=09
	   Type:  38 for WTP Radio Information
=09
	   Length:  5
=09
	   Radio ID:  The Radio Identifier, which typically refers to an
	      interface index on the WTP
=09
=09
	   Radio Type:  The type of IEEE 802.11 radio present. =20
	      The following values are supported:
=09
	      1 - 802.11b:  An IEEE 802.11b radio.
=09
	      2 - 802.11a:  An IEEE 802.11a radio.
=09
	      4 -=20
	802.11g:  An IEEE 802.11g radio.
=09
	      8 - 802.11n:  An IEEE 802.11n radio.
=09
	      0xOF - 802.11b, 802.11a, 802.11g and 802.11n:  The 4 radio
types
	         indicated are supported in the WTP.
	=20
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------
=09
	2) 11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power
=09
	Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, as
channel and Tx power are=20
	common parameters for RF management.
=09
	Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the
commenter
=09
	that TX power level is a common parameter for RF management;
however the
	IEEE 802.11 TX Power field values are defined as being the
values
	defined in IEEE 802.11Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table, and thus
are not
=09
	extensible to other bindings. Expect that each binding will
define
	values relative to its definitions.
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
	3)  Add "WTP radio channel"
=09
=09
	Comment: As per 2), we could define a TLV to report current
channel (AP to AC) or to=20
=09
	configure channel (AC to AP).
=09
	Now,. 11.9.12.  IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control and 11.9.5.  IEEE
802.11 Direct=20
=09
	Sequence Control
=09
	has channel configuration information.=20
=09
=09
	But I think that a specific TLV for it is better. By this way,
4.4 will provide
=09
=09
	more common parameter for any wireless technology.
=09
	     0                   1                   2
3
=09
=09
	        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 0 1
=09
=09
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
=09
	       |    Radio ID   |    Reserved   |        Current Channel
|
=09
=09
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
=09
=09
	The commenter suggests the following:

	3)      Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4=20

	The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these
kind parameter are common for any kind wireless binding.

	I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part.

	Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio Information", while
Tx power these kind Info should not be sent=20

	during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio
configuration" is better.

	If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what
kind message should be suggested by protocol.

	The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID,
radio type, Tx power, Channel, country code and so on.=20

	For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest
them.

	The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction,
by this way, AC could configure WTP's RF parameter

	and know current configuration on the WTP radio.

	If this way, current "11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12.
IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5. =20

	IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep
the IEEE 802.11 related element.

	 Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft.  While there may
be common elements, it's not clear that the=20
	CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of
extracting/unifying the common elements
	across wireless systems.=20
=09

=09
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------
	4) 11.9.24.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Fail Alarm Indications
=09
	Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, it could
be a common event for=20
=09
	any wireless technology.
=09
	 Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the
commmenter
	that a fail alarm indication could be a common event for
	any wireless technology. Each radio technology may want to
=09
	have additional information reported with the event however. Not
	sure there is sufficient benefit shown for a common defintiion
at this point.
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
=09
	5) 11.9.1.  IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN
=09
	How about we rename "WLAN" as wireless service? By this way, we
could achieve=20
=09
	abstract while make it work
=09
	for most wireless technology.
=09
=09
	If it is ok, we could define "add wireless service, delete
wireless service,=20
	update wireless service" in the section=20
	4.4.
=09
	Any wireless technology could add its specific parameter in the
binding=20
=09
	section.
=09
=09
	The commenter suggests a solution:
=09

	1)       Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless
service", and put it in the section 4.4

	The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract than
"WLAN".

	Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep=20

	Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel
mode

	these kinds common element (more element maybe put here).=20

	While for any specific wireless binding could follow the
Wireless binding identifier.

	The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding
are using

	( Probably eventually managed by IANA)
=09

	Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft.
	The IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN message element is 802.11 specific and
used
	together with several other message elements to define a WLAN
service.
=09

	The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the

	CAPWAP protocol to add a generic wireless service. It's not
clear that
	there are enough additional elements common to multiple wireless
	services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this
time.
=09

=09
=09
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
	6) 11.9.22.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service
=09
	As per 5), I think we could define "WTP Quality of Service"in
the section=20
	4.4.
=09
	Radio ID, Tag Packets and Queue Depth could be defined in the
"WTP Quality of=20
=09
	Service".
=09
	While CWMin and so on could be defined in the IEEE 802.11 WTP
Quality of=20
=09
	Service.
=09

	The commenter suggests the following solution:
=09

	2) Rename "11.9.22.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as
"WTP Quality of Service"

	Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth
in the "WTP Quality of Service".

	For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest
them.

	For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it
will be great.

	Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft.
	The IEEE 802.11 WTP QOS message element is 802.11 specific and
is needed
	to convey the CWMin , CWMax and other very specific 802.11 data.

=09

	The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the

	CAPWAP protocol to include a "generic QOS" message element. It's
not clear that
	there are enough elements common to multiple wireless
	services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this
time.
	There is at least 1 - the Tag packets type, which each binding
can inlcude if
	desired.
=09

=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------
=09

	7. Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as  "WTP Statistics" in the
section 4.4=20

	Comment: Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer
protocol, I think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics"=20

	could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like "RTS
Success Count" and so on.

	For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest
them.
=09

	Proposed resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the
commenter
	that many of the statistics are common across wireless
technologies.
	However the IEEE 802.11 Statistics values are defined as being
the values
	defined in various IEEE 802.11 MIB variables and thus are not
extensible to
	other bindings. Expect that each binding will define values
relative to its definitions.
=09


	On 9/28/06, young <young@huawei-3com.com> wrote:=20

		Hi Pat and all,

		I used to raise issue #204, and here intend to give
solution.

		1)       Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add
wireless service", and put it in the section 4.4

		The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract
than "WLAN".

		Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could
keep=20

		Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode,
tunnel mode

		these kinds common element (more element maybe put
here).=20

		While for any specific wireless binding could follow the
Wireless binding identifier.

		The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds
binding are using

		( Probably eventually managed by IANA)

		=20

		        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3
4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

		       |    Radio ID   |    WLAN ID    |        MAC Mode
| Tunnel Mode
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

		       |             Wireless binding identifier
|

=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20

		       |         Type                  |
Length            |

=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20

		       |                          Value...

=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20

		It is similar for "IEEE 802.11 deletes WLAN" and "IEEE
802.11 Update WLAN".

		=20

		2) Rename "11.9.22.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service"
as  "WTP Quality of Service"

		Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets,
Queue Depth in the "WTP Quality of Service".

		For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to
suggest them.

		For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind
assignment, it will be great.

		=20

		3)      Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section
4.4=20

		The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on
these kind parameter are common for any kind wireless binding.

		I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part.

		Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio
Information", while Tx power these kind Info should not be sent=20

		during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP
RF Radio configuration" is better.

		If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in
what kind message should be suggested by protocol.

		The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include
radio ID, radio type, Tx power, Channel, country code and so on.=20

		For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to
suggest them.

		The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by
bi-direction, by this way, AC could configure WTP's RF parameter

		and know current configuration on the WTP radio.

		If this way, current "11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power",
"11.9.12.  IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5. =20

		IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will
merely keep the IEEE 802.11 related element.

		=20

		4)      Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as  "WTP
Statistics" in the section 4.4=20

		Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer
protocol, I think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics"=20

		could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like
"RTS Success Count" and so on.

		For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to
suggest them.

		=20

		Any way, I thought many TLV will change their location
as new CAPWAP will be divided into two parts.

		=20

		Cheers

		=20

		Richard  (Shiyang)

		=20


=09
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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D326404216-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
agree with Dorothy's recommendations.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Dorothy Stanley=20
  [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October =
04, 2006=20
  9:08 AM<BR><B>To:</B> capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Capwap] Proposed =
Resolution=20
  for Issue 204: More General wirelesssupport /was Re: suggestion for =
Issue #=20
  204,"More general wireless support"<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>All,<BR><BR>Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its =
components=20
  are <BR>listed below.<BR><BR>Comments=20
  =
please.<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR><BR>Dorothy<BR><BR>----------------------------=
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------<BR><PRE>1) 4.4.38.  WTP Radio =
Information<BR><BR>Comment: <SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">As the =
section should be work for any wireless implement, I suggest the =
</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: =
italic">
following value</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><BR =
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"> should =
be moved to 802.11 binding. The value should be defined by wireless =
</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">technology binding.</SPAN><BR =
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">      1 - 802.11b:  An IEEE 802.11b =
radio.</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">
<BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">     =
 2 - 802.11a:  An IEEE 802.11a radio.</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: =
italic"><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: =
italic">      4 -=20
802.11g:  An IEEE 802.11g radio.</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: =
italic"><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: =
italic">      8 - 802.11n:  An IEEE 802.11n =
radio.</SPAN><BR><BR>Proposed Resolution: Move the "need to know" the=20
802.11 technology specific<BR>radio types to the 802.11 binding, =
modifying the WTP Radio Information element<BR>as follows:<BR><BR>IEEE =
802.11 Radio Information<BR><BR>   The IEEE 802.11 radio information =
message element is used to communicate the
<BR>   radio information for each IEEE 802.11 radio on the WTP.  The =
Discovery Request message MUST<BR>   include one such message element =
per radio in the WTP.  The Radio-<BR>   Type field is used by the AC to =
determine which=20
802.11 technology<BR>   specific binding is to be used with the =
WTP.<BR><BR>   The value contains two fields, as shown.<BR><BR>      0   =
                1                   2                   3<BR>      0 1 2 =
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
<BR>     =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<BR>    =
 |   Radio ID    |           Radio Type                          |<BR>   =
  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
<BR>     | Radio Type    |<BR>     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<BR><BR>   Type:  38 =
for WTP Radio Information<BR><BR>   Length:  5<BR><BR>   Radio ID:  The =
Radio Identifier, which typically refers to an<BR>      interface index =
on the WTP
<BR><BR>   Radio Type:  The type of IEEE 802.11 radio present.  <BR>     =
 The following values are supported:<BR><BR>      1 - 802.11b:  An IEEE =
802.11b radio.<BR><BR>      2 - 802.11a:  An IEEE 802.11a radio.<BR><BR> =
     4 -=20
802.11g:  An IEEE 802.11g radio.<BR><BR>      8 - 802.11n:  An IEEE =
802.11n radio.<BR><BR>      0xOF - 802.11b, 802.11a, 802.11g and =
802.11n:  The 4 radio types<BR>         indicated are supported in the =
WTP.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>-------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------------
<BR>2) 11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power<BR><BR>Comment: I think it could =
be moved to the section 4.4, as channel and Tx power are <BR>common =
parameters for RF management.<BR><BR>Proposed Resolution: No change to =
the draft. Agree with the commenter
<BR>that TX power level is a common parameter for RF management; however =
the<BR>IEEE 802.11 TX Power field values are defined as being the =
values<BR>defined in IEEE 802.11Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table, and thus =
are not<BR>
extensible to other bindings. Expect that each binding will =
define<BR>values relative to its =
definitions.<BR>---------------------------------------------------------=
------------------<BR>3)  Add "WTP radio channel"<BR><BR>
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: =
italic">Comment: </SPAN>As per 2), we could define a TLV to report =
current channel (AP to AC) or to </SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: =
italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">
configure channel (AC to AP).</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><BR =
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">Now,. =
11.9.12.  IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control and 11.9.5.  IEEE 802.11 Direct =
</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">Sequence Control</SPAN><BR =
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">has channel configuration information. =
</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">
<BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">But =
I think that a specific TLV for it is better. By this way, 4.4 will =
provide</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: =
italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">
more common parameter for any wireless technology.</SPAN><BR =
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">     0                   1                  =
 2                   3
</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: =
italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 =
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: =
italic"><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">       =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</SPAN><=
BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">       |    Radio ID   |    Reserved   |    =
    Current Channel       |
</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: =
italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">       =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</SPAN><=
BR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>
<SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt"><BR>The commenter =
suggests the following:</SPAN></FONT></PRE>
  <P style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 18pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt"><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
  size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">3)<FONT=20
  face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D1><SPAN>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

  </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT><SPAN lang=3DEN-US>Add "WTP RF Radio =
configuration"=20
  in the section 4.4 </SPAN></P>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">The Tx power, radio type, channel =
assignment and so=20
  on these kind parameter are common for any kind wireless=20
  binding.</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base =
protocol=20
  part.</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">Although the protocol already has "WTP =
Radio=20
  Information", while Tx power these kind Info should not be sent=20
  </SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: 5.25pt"><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">during discovery and join =
phase. So the=20
  separated "WTP RF Radio configuration" is better.</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: 5.25pt"><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">If keep them in one, which =
element will=20
  be mandatory in what kind message should be suggested by=20
  protocol.</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
  size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">The TLV of =
"WTP RF Radio=20
  configuration" will include radio ID, radio type, Tx power, Channel, =
country=20
  code and so on. </SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
  size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">For any =
binding, we use=20
  Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
  size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">The "WTP RF =
Radio=20
  configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way, AC could =
configure=20
  WTP's RF parameter</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
  size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">and know =
current=20
  configuration on the WTP radio.</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
  size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">If this way, =
current=20
  "11.9.18.&nbsp; IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12.&nbsp; IEEE 802.11 =
OFDM=20
  Control "and "11.9.5.&nbsp; </SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
  size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">IEEE 802.11 =
Direct Sequence=20
  Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE 802.11 related=20
  element.</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;Proposed=20
  Resolution: No change to the draft.&nbsp; While there may be common =
elements,=20
  it's not clear that the <BR>CAPWAP base specification should take on =
the task=20
  of extracting/unifying the common elements<BR>across wireless systems. =

  =
<BR></SPAN></FONT></P><PRE><BR>------------------------------------------=
------------------------------------------<BR>4) 11.9.24.  IEEE 802.11 =
WTP Radio Fail Alarm Indications<BR><BR>Comment: I think it could be =
moved to the section 4.4, it could be a common event for=20
<BR>any wireless technology.<BR><BR> Proposed Resolution: No change to =
the draft. Agree with the commmenter<BR>that a fail alarm indication =
could be a common event for<BR>any wireless technology. Each radio =
technology may want to
<BR>have additional information reported with the event however. =
Not<BR>sure there is sufficient benefit shown for a common defintiion at =
this =
point.<BR>---------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------
<BR>5) 11.9.1.  IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN<BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><BR =
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">How =
about we rename "WLAN" as wireless service? By this way, we could =
achieve </SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">abstract while make it work</SPAN><BR =
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">for most wireless technology.</SPAN><BR =
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">
<BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">If =
it is ok, we could define "add wireless service, delete wireless =
service, </SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">update wireless service" in the section=20
4.4.</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: =
italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">Any wireless technology could =
add its specific parameter in the binding </SPAN><BR =
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">
section.</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><BR><BR>The commenter =
suggests a solution:<BR><BR></PRE>
  <P style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 18pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left"=20
  align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">1)<FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
  size=3D1><SPAN> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Redefine =
11.9.1 "IEEE=20
  802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless service", and put it in the section=20
  4.4</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The =
glossary=20
  "wireless service" will be more abstract than =
"WLAN".</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Refer to =
current=20
  "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep </SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Radio ID, =
service ID=20
  (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">these =
kinds common=20
  element (more element maybe put here). </SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">While for =
any=20
  specific wireless binding could follow the <FONT color=3Dblack><SPAN=20
  style=3D"COLOR: black">Wireless binding=20
  identifier.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dblack=20
  size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The =
Wireless=20
  binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are=20
using</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dblack=20
  size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">(</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Probably =
eventually=20
  managed by IANA)<BR></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Proposed resolution: Close, no change to =
the=20
  draft.<BR>The IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN message element is 802.11 specific =
and=20
  used<BR>together with several other message elements to define a WLAN=20
  service.<BR></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The intent of the comment seems to be to =
have the=20
  ability in the <BR>CAPWAP protocol to add a generic wireless service. =
It's not=20
  clear that<BR>there are enough additional elements common to multiple=20
  wireless<BR>services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this =
at this=20
  =
time.<BR></SPAN></FONT></P><PRE><BR><BR>---------------------------------=
-----------------------------------------------<BR>6) 11.9.22.  IEEE =
802.11 WTP Quality of Service<BR><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">As per 5), I think we could define "WTP =
Quality of Service"in the section=20
4.4.</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: =
italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">Radio ID, Tag Packets and =
Queue Depth could be defined in the "WTP Quality of </SPAN><BR =
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">Service".</SPAN><BR =
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">While CWMin and so on could be defined in =
the IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of=20
</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: =
italic">Service.</SPAN><BR><BR></PRE>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The =
commenter=20
  suggests the following solution:<BR></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">2) Rename =

  "11.9.22.&nbsp; IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as &nbsp;"WTP =
Quality of=20
  Service"</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Same =
idea, we could=20
  keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP Quality of=20
  Service".</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">For any =
binding, we=20
  use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">For Tag =
Packets, if=20
  IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be =
great.</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Proposed resolution: Close, no change to =
the=20
  draft.<BR>The IEEE 802.11 WTP QOS message element is 802.11 specific =
and is=20
  needed<BR>to convey the CWMin , CWMax and other very specific 802.11 =
data.=20
  <BR></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The intent of the comment seems to be to =
have the=20
  ability in the <BR>CAPWAP protocol to include a "generic QOS" message =
element.=20
  It's not clear that<BR>there are enough elements common to multiple=20
  wireless<BR>services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this =
at this=20
  time.<BR>There is at least 1 - the Tag packets type, which each =
binding can=20
  inlcude=20
  =
if<BR>desired.<BR></SPAN></FONT></P>-------------------------------------=
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------<BR>
  <P style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 18pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt"><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
  size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt"><FONT =
face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
  size=3D1><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT><SPAN lang=3DEN-US>7. =
Redefine "IEEE=20
  802.11 Statistics" as &nbsp;"WTP Statistics" in the section 4.4 =
</SPAN></P>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">Comment: Most case, the wireless binding =
will be=20
  link layer protocol, I think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 =
Statistics"=20
  </SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">could be put on the section 4.4, except =
the element=20
  like "RTS Success Count" and so on.</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">For any binding, we use Wireless binding =
identifier=20
  to suggest them.<BR></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">Proposed resolution: No change to the =
draft. Agree=20
  with the commenter<BR>that many of the statistics are common across =
wireless=20
  technologies.<BR>However the IEEE 802.11 Statistics values are defined =
as=20
  being the values<BR>defined in various IEEE 802.11 MIB variables and =
thus are=20
  not extensible to<BR>other bindings. Expect that each binding will =
define=20
  values relative to its definitions.<BR></SPAN></FONT></P><BR>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 9/28/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>young</B>=20
  &lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:young@huawei-3com.com">young@huawei-3com.com</A>&gt;=20
  wrote:</SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
    <DIV lang=3DZH-CN vlink=3D"purple" link=3D"blue">
    <DIV>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi Pat =
and=20
    all,</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I used =
to raise=20
    issue #<SPAN class=3Dst id=3Dst name=3D"st">204</SPAN>, and here =
intend to give=20
    solution.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 18pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left" =

    align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">1)<FONT =
face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
    size=3D1><SPAN> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" =
as "Add=20
    wireless service", and put it in the section 4.4</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The =
glossary=20
    "wireless service" will be more abstract than =
"WLAN".</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Refer =
to current=20
    "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep </SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Radio =
ID, service=20
    ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">these =
kinds common=20
    element (more element maybe put here). </SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">While =
for any=20
    specific wireless binding could follow the <FONT color=3Dblack><SPAN =

    style=3D"COLOR: black">Wireless binding=20
    identifier.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dblack=20
    size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The =
Wireless=20
    binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are=20
    using</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dblack=20
    size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">(</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
    face=3DArial><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> =
Probably eventually=20
    managed by IANA)</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New" color=3Dblack=20
    size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: =
black">&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 =
9 0 1 2=20
    3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New" color=3Dblack=20
    size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: =
black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</SPAN><=
/FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 35pt; TEXT-INDENT: -35pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left" =

    align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: =
black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Radio ID&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WLAN=20
    ID&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MAC =

    Mode&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Tunnel =
Mode&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</SPAN><=
/FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New" color=3Dblack=20
    size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: =
black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    |&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;W</SPAN></FON=
T><FONT=20
    face=3D"Courier New" color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">ireless binding=20
    identifier</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">=20
    =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;=20
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New" color=3Dblack=20
    size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: =
black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20
    </SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New" color=3Dblack=20
    size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    =
Type&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    =
&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    Length&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    &nbsp;|</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New" color=3Dblack=20
    size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    =
&nbsp;&nbsp;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+=20
    </SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New" color=3Dblack=20
    size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    =
&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    Value...</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New" color=3Dblack=20
    size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    =
&nbsp;&nbsp;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+=20
    </SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It is =
similar for=20
    "IEEE 802.11 deletes WLAN" and "IEEE 802.11 Update =
WLAN".</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><B><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#000032 size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: =
rgb(0,0,50)"></SPAN></FONT></B>&nbsp;</P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">2) =
Rename=20
    "11.9.22.&nbsp; IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as &nbsp;"WTP =
Quality of=20
    Service"</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Same =
idea, we could=20
    keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP Quality of=20
    Service".</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">For any =
binding, we=20
    use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">For Tag =
Packets, if=20
    IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be =
great.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-US></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
    <P style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 18pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt"><FONT=20
    face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">3)<FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
    size=3D1><SPAN>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT><SPAN lang=3DEN-US>Add "WTP RF Radio=20
    configuration" in the section 4.4 </SPAN></P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">The Tx power, radio type, channel =
assignment and=20
    so on these kind parameter are common for any kind wireless=20
    binding.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base =
protocol=20
    part.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">Although the protocol already has "WTP =
Radio=20
    Information", while Tx power these kind Info should not be sent=20
    </SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: 5.25pt"><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">during discovery and join =
phase. So the=20
    separated "WTP RF Radio configuration" is better.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: 5.25pt"><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">If keep them in one, which =
element will=20
    be mandatory in what kind message should be suggested by=20
    protocol.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
    size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">The TLV of =
"WTP RF Radio=20
    configuration" will include radio ID, radio type, Tx power, Channel, =
country=20
    code and so on. </SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
    size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">For any =
binding, we use=20
    Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
    size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">The "WTP RF =
Radio=20
    configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way, AC could=20
    configure WTP's RF parameter</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
    size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">and know =
current=20
    configuration on the WTP radio.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
    size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">If this way, =
current=20
    "11.9.18.&nbsp; IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12.&nbsp; IEEE 802.11 =
OFDM=20
    Control "and "11.9.5.&nbsp; </SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: left" align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
    size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">IEEE 802.11 =
Direct=20
    Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE 802.11 related =

    element.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-US></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
    <P style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 18pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt"><FONT=20
    face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">4)<FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
    size=3D1><SPAN>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT><SPAN lang=3DEN-US>Redefine "IEEE 802.11 =

    Statistics" as &nbsp;"WTP Statistics" in the section 4.4 </SPAN></P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">Most case, the wireless binding will be =
link layer=20
    protocol, I think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics"=20
    </SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">could be put on the section 4.4, except =
the=20
    element like "RTS Success Count" and so on.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">For any binding, we use Wireless binding =

    identifier to suggest them.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-US></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">Any way, I thought many TLV will change =
their=20
    location as new CAPWAP will be divided into two =
parts.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-US></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">Cheers</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-US></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">Richard =
&nbsp;(Shiyang)</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN=20
    =
lang=3DEN-US></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P></DIV></DIV><BR>____________________=
_____________________________________________<BR>To=20
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 188
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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Works for me.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:07 PM
	To: capwap
	Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 188
=09
=09
	I do not see a problem with the Add MAC ACL Entry issue as
defined. Unless there is proposed text to this issue, I recommend that
we close it with no changes to the draft.
	=20
	Cheers,
	=20
	Mike


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charset=3Dus-ascii">
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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D584242316-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Works=20
for me.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Michael Montemurro=20
  [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, =
September 23,=20
  2006 12:07 PM<BR><B>To:</B> capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Capwap] =
Proposed=20
  resolution to Issue 188<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>I do not see a problem with the Add MAC ACL Entry issue as =
defined.=20
  Unless there is proposed text to this issue, I recommend that we close =
it with=20
  no changes to the draft.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Mike</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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What would the originator of this comment/issue propose the WTP do if it
is using an IP address, and determines another device is also using it.
Should it relinquish the address silently and not notify the AC? The
question is not what should be done when all is well, but rather when an
error occurs.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:02 PM
	To: Michael Montemurro
	Cc: capwap@frascone.com
	Subject: Re: [Capwap] Duplcate IPv6 Address message Element
=09
=09
	All,
	=20
	Issue 147 is:
	=20
	As DAD ( Duplicate address detection ) is the integral part of
IPv6 protocol=20
	so no other host/WTP with same IPv6 address can join the
network, therefore=20
	section 4.4.20 for duplicate IPv6 address message element is NOT
required in=20
	CAPWAP and can be deleted ?
	=20
	The proposed resolution to issue 147 is to
	delete the Duplicate IPv6 Address message element, 4.4.20.
	=20
	Comments please.
	=20
	Thanks,
	=20
	Dorothy


	On 6/30/06, Michael Montemurro <montemurro.michael@gmail.com>
wrote:=20

		Sachin,
		=20
		I created issue 147 to track this.
		=20
		Mike
	=09
		=20
		On 6/26/06, Sachin Dutta < sachind@huawei.com
<mailto:sachind@huawei.com> > wrote:=20

		=09

			Hi All,

			=20

			As DAD ( Duplicate address detection ) is the
integral part of IPv6 protocol so no other host/WTP with same IPv6
address can join the network, therefore section 4.4.20 for duplicate
IPv6 address message element is NOT required in CAPWAP and can be
deleted ?

			=20

			Regards

			Sachin

			=20


=09
_________________________________________________________________
			To unsubscribe or modify your subscription
options, please visit:=20
=09
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
		=09
			Archives:
http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
		=09
		=09



=09
_________________________________________________________________
		To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options,
please visit:
		http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
	=09
		Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20
	=09
	=09



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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2976" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D969264416-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>What=20
would the originator of this comment/issue propose the WTP do if it is =
using an=20
IP address, and determines another device is also using it. Should it =
relinquish=20
the address silently and not notify the AC? The question is not what =
should be=20
done when all is well, but rather when an error =
occurs.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Dorothy Stanley=20
  [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 29, =
2006=20
  2:02 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Michael Montemurro<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  capwap@frascone.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Capwap] Duplcate IPv6 =
Address=20
  message Element<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>All,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Issue 147 is:<BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><EM>As DAD ( Duplicate address detection ) is the integral part =
of IPv6=20
  protocol <BR>so no other host/WTP with same IPv6 address can join the =
network,=20
  therefore <BR>section 4.4.20 for duplicate IPv6 address message =
element is NOT=20
  required in <BR>CAPWAP and can be deleted ?</EM></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>The proposed resolution to issue 147 is to</DIV>
  <DIV>delete the Duplicate IPv6 Address message element, 4.4.20.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Comments please.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Thanks,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Dorothy</DIV><BR><BR>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 6/30/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Michael=20
  Montemurro</B> &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com">montemurro.michael@gmail.com=
</A>&gt;=20
  wrote:</SPAN>=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
#ccc 1px solid">
    <DIV>Sachin,</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>I created issue <SPAN class=3Dst id=3Dst name=3D"st">147</SPAN> =
to track=20
    this.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Mike<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3De id=3Dq_10c2560c1826849a_1><SPAN =
class=3Dgmail_quote>On=20
    6/26/06, <B class=3Dgmail_sendername>Sachin Dutta</B> &lt;<A=20
    onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"mailto:sachind@huawei.com" target=3D_blank> =
sachind@huawei.com</A>&gt;=20
    wrote:</SPAN> </SPAN></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
#ccc 1px solid">
      <DIV><SPAN class=3De id=3Dq_10c2560c1826849a_3>
      <DIV>
      <DIV lang=3DEN-US vlink=3D"purple" link=3D"blue">
      <DIV>
      <P><FONT face=3D"Lucida Console" size=3D2><SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi=20
      All,</SPAN></FONT></P>
      <P><FONT face=3D"Lucida Console" size=3D2><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
      <P><FONT face=3D"Lucida Console" size=3D2><SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">As DAD=20
      ( Duplicate address detection ) is the integral part of IPv6 =
protocol so=20
      no other host/WTP with same IPv6 address can join the network, =
therefore=20
      <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">section 4.4.20 </SPAN></B>for =
duplicate=20
      IPv6 address message element is <U>NOT required in CAPWAP</U> and =
can be=20
      deleted ?</SPAN></FONT></P>
      <P><B><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#000032 size=3D2><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: =
#000032"></SPAN></FONT></B>&nbsp;</P>
      <P><FONT face=3D"Lucida Console" size=3D2><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Regards</SPAN></FONT></P>
      <P><FONT face=3D"Lucida Console" size=3D2><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sachin</SPAN></FONT></P>
      <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR></SPAN></DIV>________=
_________________________________________________________<BR>To=20
      unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: =
<BR><A=20
      onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap"=20
      =
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	Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01
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I personally prefer to start maintaining configuration and status state
on the WTP after the join is complete. Is there a problem that arises
with the current draft? Is this just a personal preference, or is there
a bug?
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:22 PM
	To: Michael Montemurro
	Cc: capwap@frascone.com
	Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP Reboot
Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01
operations
=09
=09
	All,
	=20
	Issue 177, "WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join"
	is listed below:
	29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons
listed
	are not clear enough.
=09
	<PRC> Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the
	configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We
can
	clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value.
	Believing that there may be times when it is desirable for the
WTP to provide=20
	information to the AC about its stability, the proposed
resolution to Issue 177 is=20
	to insert the following text at the end of
	Section 6.1 "Join Request":
	=20
	The following message element may be included in the Join
Request message:
	- WTP Reboot Statistics, see Section 4.4.44.
	=20
	Comments please,
	=20
	Thanks,
	=20
	Dorothy
=09
	=20
	On 6/30/06, Michael Montemurro <montemurro.michael@gmail.com>
wrote:=20

		David, Pat,
		=20
		I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points in
David's email. Happy hunting!
		=20
		Mike
	=09
		=20
	=09
		On 6/27/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com >
wrote:=20

			Going through David's lengthy document, he has
raised an interesting
			number of points that I believe require issues
to be created. At one=20
			point I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in order
to be brief, and
			introducing my own numbering scheme.
		=09
			1) Can message elements be in any order? (I
believe they should be)
		=09
			<PRC> Yes, and I suspect we need to include text
to make it more=20
			obvious.
		=09
		=09
			2) Are all specified message elements required?
(The obvious answer is
			"yes", but this document doesn't discuss
versioning. For example, what
			if in a new version of CAPWAP an additional
message element was to be=20
			added. Would a new message type be created and
the additional message
			element added to it, or the existing type
reused?)
		=09
			<PRC> This is a great question, and one that
does need to be addressed
			in the spec. In the Diameter protocol we dealt
with this issue by=20
			including a "Mandatory to implement" bit. If any
AVP was received, whose
			bit was set, yet was not recognized, then the
request had to be
			rejected.
		=09
			<PRC> We could consider something similar here,
but I believe with the=20
			firmware download component of the protocol it
may be less of an issue -
			although not guaranteed. I would hope (and
expect) that as the CAPWAP
			protocol extends, the AC would push new firmware
to the WTP. This does=20
			require that the initial part of the state
machine be fairly static, and
			this could be an area where the "Mandatory to
implement" bit could be
			useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to
older protocol behavior.=20
		=09
			3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of indicating
which message elements
			can be repeated.
		=09
			<PRC> Another good point. When we list the
message elements, we should
			note whether the frequently is 0-1 (meaning
absent or once), 1 (only=20
			once) or 0+ (meaning any number of them could be
present.
		=09
		=09
			4) Can "additional" message elements be added to
a message? (I believe
			so for reporting capabilities, statistics, and
events. For
			configuration, there is nothing in the protocol
that says what happens
			when one end gets an configuration     element
it doesn't know about.
			Should it be ignored, and the other elements
processed, or should the
			complete operation     failed?)=20
		=09
			<PRC> The "Mandatory to implement" bit above
could address this issue.
			If an unrecognized message element is found to
have the bit set, then
			the whole message needs to be rejected. If the
bit is not set, the=20
			message element may be safely ignored.
		=09
		=09
			5) The config has a concept of "default value"
for each configuration
			attribute. However, the default values are not
clearly specified. This
			needs to be resolved to be able to support
"default values".=20
		=09
			<PRC> Another good point raised by David.
		=09
		=09
			6) the documentation of which "binding specific"
message elements are to
			be included with CAPWAP messages is not
consistent, and is difficult to=20
			follow.
		=09
			<PRC> Has this been addressed in the latest
(-02) document?
		=09
		=09
			7) There are some message elements that cause
"actions". This approach
			to protocol design is problematic and should be
eliminated.=20
		=09
			<PRC> Could you be more specific as well as
provide guidance on what you
			would like to see?
		=09
		=09
			8) The message types are inconsistently named,
and do not follow the
			conventions of well designed protocols. Can the
operations be named=20
			consistently with the following terminology:
			  1) request/response (used to get/set/perform
action)
			  2) report/ack (use to tell the other side
something)
		=09
			<PRC> Could you provide your thoughts on which
messages fall within=20
			which one of your categories?
		=09
		=09
			9) Many of the configuration items, and status
items are not listed in
			one section with definitions. (Well make it two
sections - one for
			CAPWAP and the other which is "binding"
specific.) For example, not all=20
			of the time period lengths are identified and
specified in section 4.5.
		=09
			<PRC> Unfortunately, the document has gone back
and forth a few times
			and before we opt to change the structure of the
document, I'd like to=20
			ensure that we have broad agreement on what we
want - with the
			understanding that we will never make everyone
happy.
		=09
		=09
			10) each operation should have listed in which
states it can be sent and
			received
		=09
			<PRC> I do not understand your comment.
		=09
		=09
			11) All strings, such as WTP location, should be
changed from US-ASCII
			encoding to UTF-8 encoding.
		=09
			<PRC> Agreed.
		=09
			12) The term "mobile" is not really accurate
when describing wireless=20
			interfaces, since wireless does not imply
mobile. Can we just use
			the techie term "STA" instead.
		=09
			<PRC> I agree we should use the term Station, or
STA for short.
		=09
		=09
			13) The WTP Descriptor message element contains
too much information,=20
			lacks clarity on the WTP encryption field and
includes version numbers,
			which should be in string form.
		=09
			<PRC> To the first point, I disagree. I think
there is value in knowing
			everything about the WTP. The AC vendors can
expose whatever information=20
			they want, but I don't believe anything is
unnecessary.
		=09
			<PRC> To the second point, this is one of those
areas where the concept
			of the technology binding creates complexity.
Given that we cannot
			simply discuss 802.11i at this point, the only
thing we can do is punt
			to another section in the technology binding
section. That said, I agree
			with Dave that the 802.11 binding section is too
light in this area.
			However, I would much prefer that instead of
trying to address this=20
			specific issue, we discuss whether we should
even be supporting the mode
			of operation where 802.11i is performed in the
AC - especially with the
			introduction of DTLS to secure the data plane.
Right now, it just feels=20
			like we have too many options and I am worried
that interoperability
			will be severely impacted (not to mention
protocol complexity).
		=09
			<PRC> To the last point, I have no issues with
including text stating=20
			that the version numbers should be in string
form.
		=09
		=09
			14) The WTP Descriptor information is not
required at Join time.
		=09
			<PRC> Well, as far as I can tell, I think
there's value in knowing
			whether the WTP can even be supported by the AC.
So the more info is=20
			provided by the WTP, the better the AC can
determine whether it should
			just ignore the WTP or not. This could be done
because it knows that the
			firmware running on the WTP is not compatible,
and it has no new
			firmware to download.
		=09
		=09
			15) Are the values in the WTP Frame Encryption a
capabilities bit, or an
			enum?
		=09
			<PRC> Looks like an enum to me. Not sure what
Dave would prefer the text
			to read. There are various other similar
comments throughout, which I=20
			will not repeat here.
		=09
		=09
			16) The Discovery Response is broken. The AC
SHOULD NOT be providing any
			info to a WTP (or something that claims to be a
WTP). Also, the AC
			should tell the WTP what to do next, with
choices: 1) Ok to try to join,=20
			2) don't try to join, 3) try
discover on a list of
			returned ACs)
		=09
			<PRC> I don't believe there is an issue with
sending the AC's
			information to the WTP, but would solicit input
from the list. That=20
			said, some of the information in the AC
Descriptor is required, such as
			the current load on the AC. No point is trying
to join if he AC
			indicates it's already at max capacity.
			<PRC> I believe if the AC does not return the
response, then it implies=20
			(2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is handled during
the join or configure
			process, which I believe is right.
		=09
		=09
			17) Is AC Name text?
		=09
			<PRC> Yes, and same with WTP Name.
		=09
		=09
			18) Primary Discovery are not required.=20
		=09
			<PRC> Disagree. Required for failover.
		=09
		=09
			19) The text does not make it clear that the
contents of the WTP
			Location is informative only, and as Dave calls
it, a "scratchpad".
		=09
			<PRC> Well, to be honest, I thought the example
"next to the fridge"=20
			made it clear that the information did not
derive from any scientific
			formula. The description also states this is a
user-defined. I believe
			this should be good enough.
		=09
		=09
			20) Session is not required
		=09
			<PRC> I believe you may be correct that with the
transition to DTLS,
			this is no longer required.
		=09
		=09
			21) need to send "common name" as found in the
WTP CERT so that the AC
			can verify
		=09
			<PRC> The protocol currently relies on the MAC
address being the key
			that binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't
see a need to change
			this.
		=09
		=09
			22) Result code in Join Response is not
sufficient, for instance WTP HW=20
			not supported.
		=09
			<PRC> Well, the protocol does not require this
because the Discovery
			Response would never be sent (as the protocol
stands today).
		=09
		=09
			23) AC IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering,
which is unnecessary.=20
		=09
			<PRC> Agreed.
		=09
		=09
			24) Change Echo to Keepalive or heartbeat.
		=09
			<PRC> I call it potato....
		=09
		=09
			25) What if all of the message elements do not
fit within a single
			CAPWAP control frame.=20
		=09
			<PRC> We should address this.
		=09
		=09
			26) AC Name with Index is all messed up...
		=09
			<PRC> Not really. You simply include more than
one, and the index field
			is clearly the priority. Don't understand the
Multi-AC comment. No=20
			inter-AC protocol implied here.
		=09
		=09
			27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not
configure.
		=09
			<PRC> Agreed, but wonder even more why we are
duplicating this
			information across both the WTP Descriptor and
the WTP Board Data=20
			message elements.
		=09
		=09
			28) The WTP Static IPv4 Address should not have
the Static bit, but
			instead state that 0.0.0.0 <http://0.0.0.0/>
means a static address is not to be used.
		=09
			<PRC> I don't have an issue with this request,
but in the end we have=20
			the same function. The reason why I state this
is that we can refine
			this protocol until the cows come home, and at
one point we need to draw=20
			a line in the sand.
		=09
		=09
			29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join,
and the reasons listed=20
			are not clear enough.
		=09
			<PRC> Doesn't really matter whether this is
included in the
			configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees
to move it. We can=20
			clarify some of the reasons, as long as it
provides value.=20
		=09
		=09
			30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration
message element's BSSID
			field should be an array.
		=09
			<PRC> Disagree.
		=09
		=09
			30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration
message element's Country
			Code is not clear enough.
		=09
			<PRC> The text points to the actual MIB element
in the 802.11-1999
			standard, which very clearly defines the
contents of the field. I don't=20
			think there's value in replicating the format of
this field in the=20
			CAPWAP standard.
		=09
		=09
			31) There seems like an awful lot of additional
configuration message
			elements that need to be specified here!
		=09
			<PRC> Having built a protocol based on this,
it's not clear to me what's=20
			missing. I think it would be useful if you
provided concrete details on
			what's missing.
		=09
		=09
			32) Configuration Status is just plain broken
because any configuration=20
			change operation may fail and there is no
response to the=20
			configuration changes specified in this command.
		=09
			<PRC> There certainly is - I guess I don't
understand the concern.
		=09
		=09
			33) Use of Change State Event should instead be
Radio Admin State.=20
		=09
			<PRC> Perhaps the two are not described
properly. The first is used by=20
			the WTP to inform the AC that something has
occurred with a radio. The
			second is used by the AC to enable/disable a
radio.
		=09
		=09
			34) Report Timer needs to be in section 4.5 or
11
		=09
			<PRC> ok
		=09
		=09
			35) Should Idle Timeout be per radio, or per
WTP, and should the value
			be defined in section 4.5 or 11.
		=09
			<PRC> Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine as
it is.=20
		=09
		=09
			36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and should
be removed.=20
		=09
			<PRC> Disagree. I believe it is necessary to
create enough resiliency in
			the protocol/service.
		=09
		=09
			37) How are the "Rate Set" and "Supported Rates"
encoded.=20
		=09
			<PRC> This was fixed in the -02=20
		=09
		=09
			38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the
configuration, but instead in the
			join.
		=09
			<PRC> Not sure this really matters....
		=09
		=09
			39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so strange and
is being managed like no=20
			other configuration data.
		=09
			<PRC> I do not understand the comment
		=09
		=09
			40) Decryption Error Report Period is not
defined in section 4.5 or 11
		=09
			<PRC> ok, and note that the information has been
moved to the IEEE=20
			802.11 RSNA Error Report From Mobile
		=09
		=09
			41) Configuration Update Response. today, there
are primarily two types
			of configuration models. The first is when
config is changed, it is only
			changed in the volatile copy (the memory or
running). An explicit=20
			command is needed to save the config to
nonvolatile storage. The second
			model has config both running (volatile) and
saved (nonvolatile) config
			changed when a config change is made. And there
might be a special
			command to have a config change apply to only
one. In this case, there
			is no need for a "save config to nonvolatile"
command. It is not clear
			what is suppose to be supported here in CAPWAP,
and how does CAPWAP=20
			support devices with no or very limited
nonvolatile storage for config!
		=09
			<PRC> CAPWAP does not support WTPs with no
nonvolatile storage. The
			protocol has the AC push configs to the WTP,
which saves them at the=20
			time they are received. I do not believe
anything else is required.
		=09
		=09
			42) Configuration Update Response includes the
Result Code message
			element, which includes values that do not
appear to be relevant for=20
			this message, and there are plenty of other
failure cases
		=09
			<PRC> ok, but note that we are sharing a common
message element. Any
			suggestions on how to address your issue?
		=09
		=09
			43) Change State Event Report. This seems a
little silly to be sent in=20
			the "configure" state. It seems only appropriate
for the "run" state.
			Some might argue that even in the "run" state it
shouldn't be sent after
			a "config update" request that changes the
operational state. However,=20
			in the "run" state, it may take a while to have
the operational state
			change to follow the admin state. Thus, I think
it is OK in the "run"
			state after config changes."
		=09
			<PRC> I believe this was addressed in -02.=20
		=09
		=09
			44) Clear Config Request. this operation has
several problems, which
			include:
			   1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec says that
this can only be done in
			the "run" state. This is silly. It should also
be possible in the=20
			"configure" state.
			<PRC> I wonder why the AC would even consider
clearing the WTP's state
			before it even knows how it is configured.
		=09
			   2) the value of "manufacturing defaults" is
not defined, and a poor=20
			term to use, since it implies that that each
manufacturer can have
			different values. If so, then the AC will have
no knowledge of the
			config on the WTP! The problem of "default
config values" has already be=20
			mentioned above. After each config attribute has
been defined with a
			default value, then the proper term would be
"CAPWAP config defaults".
			<PRC> Yes, you've raised this point already, and
I agree that it does=20
			need to be addressed.
		=09
			   3) This operation is not defined to have a
response. This is broken,
			since any config change can fail. Also, it is
not defined what happens
			next. Does this cause the WTP to reboot an start
a "clean discovery"?=20
			<PRC> This was addressed in -02
		=09
		=09
			45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are actually
three different "Image
			Data Request" messages. Which one is determined
by which of the
			three message elements is contained. This is
completely silly! There=20
			should be three separate operations!
Additionally, how does the WTP know
			which image to get? The AC should be making that
decision.
		=09
			<PRC> I believe the WTP is the only device that
knows what it's filename=20
			should be. Why would an AC vendor know about
file naming conventions
			used by the WTP vendors? I believe your other
issues are discussed in
			the next items.
		=09
		=09
			46) Image Data Response. this is silly. This
operation can fail! There=20
			needs to be message element that indicates the
result.
		=09
			<PRC> How so? This is only used to send firmware
to the WTP. Not clear
			what could fail... Reading the image from flash?
		=09
		=09
			47) Image Data Request. when starting over again
at the WTP start state,=20
			the WTP shouldn't use the "normal" discovery
process, but instead "fast
			track" a connection back to the AC that just
downloaded the image. With
			a little more          work, we could probably
figure out a way to reuse=20
			the old DTLS session.
		=09
			<PRC> To what gain? What is so expensive about
the discovery, and what
			happened if the AC was not longer reachable?
		=09
		=09
			48) opcode - if this is here, might as well also
have a value that=20
			indicates last block of the image file, instead
of looking at the block
			size.
		=09
			<PRC> But we're just changing for the sake of
changing - the protocol
			works as-is.
		=09
		=09
			49) since this operation does not have the block
number as a parameter,=20
			the WTP must determine the block number via the
CAPWAP message header
			sequence number.  NOTE: DTLS does not provide
in-order delivery of
			packets. Also, this requires the WTP to remember
state. This message
			element should be re-engineered to have the
following subfields:=20
			[edited]
		=09
			<PRC> The control header includes a sequence
number, and while we can
			change the current protocol to match your
recommendations, the protocol
			does work. If it ain't broken...
		=09
		=09
			50) Image Data Response. this is silly. This
operation can fail!  For=20
			example, the WTP can run out of space to store
the block, or
			there could be a failure in writing the block to
storage. (Or as "Image
			Data Request"(9.1a) is presently specified, the
checksum match could=20
			fail.) There needs to be message element that
indicates the result.)
			Note: don't need a block number field, since
request and responses are
			paired.
		=09
			<PRC> We can include a result code
		=09
		=09
			51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief=20
		=09
			<PRC> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-).
Seriously, the protocol
			does work, so what exactly are you looking for?
		=09
		=09
			52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This
operation can fail! There
			needs to be message element that indicates the
result.
		=09
			<PRC> See above comment.
		=09
			53) Reset Request. ...
		=09
			<PRC> The comment is irrelevant now that Clear
Config has changed.
		=09
		=09
			54) Reset Response. this is silly. This
operation can fail! There needs
			to be message element that indicates the
result.
		=09
			<PRC> I sense a trend. I will stop including
these messages from now on.
		=09
		=09
			55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this
reported if the condition
			remains?
		=09
			<PRC> Only required once, I think, but we may
want to include some text
			covering that.
		=09
		=09
			56) the list of events seems understated!=20
		=09
			<PRC> Text and conditions please
		=09
		=09
			57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have -
remove.
		=09
			<PRC> Disagree. Providing diagnostics
capabilities is required.
		=09
		=09
			58) Mobile Config Request. the actual details of
how this works on both=20
			splitMAC and especially localMAC are not well
specified. That is, only
			the figures and text in sections 11.1.1 and
11.1.2 provide any clue as
			to events that would cause an AC to send this
message type. Also, there=20
			are restrictions on combinations of parameters
that can be included in
			the message.
		=09
			<PRC> I wonder whether other folks agree that
more details are required.
		=09
		=09
			59) it doesn't say if one message can be used to
update more than one=20
			STA. It should be able.
		=09
			<PRC> No, otherwise you end up with the problem
of associating specific
			message elements with a given mobile. One mobile
per request.
		=09
		=09
			60) IEEE 802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC
address be included so=20
			this message element can be matched with a
(4.4.8)Add Mobile message
			element?
		=09
			<PRC> I believe this is to your previous point,
but the protocol assumes
			one mobile per request.
		=09
		=09
			61) IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for
data traffic to the AC? If
			so, then why is this an 802.11 message element
		=09
			<PRC> Intended to be a way to push policies to
the WTP to prioritize
			mobile traffic.
		=09
		=09
			62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why is a
new message type that is
			802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11 WLANs?
It seems like the
			existing "(8.4)Configuration Update Request"
message could be used.
		=09
			<PRC> To be more specific only.=20
		=09
		=09
			63) note here there are information elements to
create, delete, and
			modify WLANs. However, for message type
"(10.1)Mobile Config Request",
			there is only add and delete (and the "add" used
to modify).=20
		=09
			<PRC> Correct. The protocol requires the AC to
resend a new add with a
			different policy. No specific reason, but if
this is deemed
			inconsistent, we could change it.
		=09
		=09
			64) IEEE 802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping
of WLAN IDs to BSSIDs=20
			seems like it needs a little more work
		=09
			<PRC> What exactly would you like to see?
		=09
		=09
			Pat Calhoun
			CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
			Cisco Systems
		=09
		=09
		=09
			> -----Original Message-----=20
			> From: David T. Perkins
[mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com]
			> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 4:31 PM=20
			> To: capwap@frascone.com=20
			> Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01
operations
			>
			> HI,=20
			>
			> I've attached a long file that summarizes the
operations in
			> CAPWAP-01.
			>
			> Enjoy,
			> /david t. perkins=20
			>
=09
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			To unsubscribe or modify your subscription
options, please visit:
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http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=20
		=09
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		=09



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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D926154616-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
personally prefer to start maintaining configuration and status state on =
the WTP=20
after the join is complete. Is there a problem that arises with the =
current=20
draft? Is this just a personal preference, or is there a=20
bug?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Dorothy Stanley=20
  [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 29, =
2006=20
  2:22 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Michael Montemurro<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  capwap@frascone.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Capwap] Proposed resolution to =
Issue=20
  177 WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on =
CAPWAP-01=20
  operations<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>All,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Issue 177, "WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join"</DIV>
  <DIV>is listed below:</DIV><PRE><EM>29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs =
in the Join, and the reasons listed
are not clear enough.

&lt;PRC&gt; Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the
configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can
clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value.</EM></PRE>
  <DIV>Believing that there may be times when it is desirable for the=20
  WTP&nbsp;to provide </DIV>
  <DIV>information to the AC about its stability, the proposed =
resolution to=20
  Issue 177 is <BR>to insert the following text at the end of</DIV>
  <DIV>Section 6.1 "Join Request":</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>The following message element may be included in the Join Request =

  message:</DIV>
  <DIV>- WTP Reboot Statistics, see Section 4.4.44.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Comments please,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Thanks,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Dorothy<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 6/30/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Michael=20
  Montemurro</B> &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com">montemurro.michael@gmail.com=
</A>&gt;=20
  wrote:</SPAN>=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
#ccc 1px solid">
    <DIV>David, Pat,</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points <SPAN =
class=3Dst id=3Dst=20
    name=3D"st">in</SPAN> David's email. Happy hunting!</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Mike<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3De id=3Dq_10c257cfe921fd20_1>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 6/27/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Pat=20
    Calhoun (pacalhou)</B> &lt;<A=20
    onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com" =
target=3D_blank>pcalhoun@cisco.com </A>&gt;=20
    wrote:</SPAN>=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
#ccc 1px solid">Going=20
      through David's lengthy document, he has raised an =
interesting<BR>number=20
      of points that I believe require issues to be created. At one =
<BR>point=20
      I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in order to be brief, =
and<BR>introducing=20
      my own numbering scheme.<BR><BR>1) Can message elements be in any =
order?=20
      (I believe they should be)<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes, and I suspect =
we need=20
      to include text to make it more <BR>obvious.<BR><BR><BR>2) Are all =

      specified message elements required? (The obvious answer =
is<BR>"yes", but=20
      this document doesn't discuss versioning. For example, what<BR>if =
in a new=20
      version of CAPWAP an additional message element was to be =
<BR>added. Would=20
      a new message type be created and the additional =
message<BR>element added=20
      to it, or the existing type reused?)<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; This is a =
great=20
      question, and one that does need to be addressed<BR>in the spec. =
In the=20
      Diameter protocol we dealt with this issue by <BR>including a =
"Mandatory=20
      to implement" bit. If any AVP was received, whose<BR>bit was set, =
yet was=20
      not recognized, then the request had to =
be<BR>rejected.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      We could consider something similar here, but I believe with the=20
      <BR>firmware download component of the protocol it may be less of =
an issue=20
      -<BR>although not guaranteed. I would hope (and expect) that as =
the=20
      CAPWAP<BR>protocol extends, the AC would push new firmware to the =
WTP.=20
      This does <BR>require that the initial part of the state machine =
be fairly=20
      static, and<BR>this could be an area where the "Mandatory to =
implement"=20
      bit could be<BR>useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to =
older=20
      protocol behavior. <BR><BR>3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of=20
      indicating which message elements<BR>can be =
repeated.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      Another good point. When we list the message elements, we =
should<BR>note=20
      whether the frequently is 0-1 (meaning absent or once), 1 (only =
<BR>once)=20
      or 0+ (meaning any number of them could be present.<BR><BR><BR>4) =
Can=20
      "additional" message elements be added to a message? (I =
believe<BR>so for=20
      reporting capabilities, statistics, and&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
events.=20
      For<BR>configuration, there is nothing in the protocol that says =
what=20
      happens<BR>when one end gets an =
configuration&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      element it doesn't know about.<BR>Should it be ignored, and the =
other=20
      elements processed, or should the<BR>complete=20
      operation&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; failed?) <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; The =

      "Mandatory to implement" bit above could address this issue.<BR>If =
an=20
      unrecognized message element is found to have the bit set, =
then<BR>the=20
      whole message needs to be rejected. If the bit is not set, the =
<BR>message=20
      element may be safely ignored.<BR><BR><BR>5) The config has a =
concept of=20
      "default value" for each configuration<BR>attribute. However, the =
default=20
      values are not clearly specified. This<BR>needs to be resolved to =
be able=20
      to support "default values". <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Another good =
point raised=20
      by David.<BR><BR><BR>6) the documentation of which "binding =
specific"=20
      message elements are to<BR>be included with CAPWAP messages is not =

      consistent, and is difficult to <BR>follow.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Has =
this=20
      been addressed in the latest (-02) document?<BR><BR><BR>7) There =
are some=20
      message elements that cause "actions". This approach<BR>to =
protocol design=20
      is problematic and should be eliminated. <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Could =
you be=20
      more specific as well as provide guidance on what you<BR>would =
like to=20
      see?<BR><BR><BR>8) The message types are inconsistently named, and =
do not=20
      follow the<BR>conventions of well designed protocols. Can the =
operations=20
      be named <BR>consistently with the following=20
      terminology:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;1) request/response (used to =
get/set/perform=20
      action)<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;2) report/ack (use to tell the other side=20
      something)<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Could you provide your thoughts on =
which=20
      messages fall within <BR>which one of your =
categories?<BR><BR><BR>9) Many=20
      of the configuration items, and status items are not listed =
in<BR>one=20
      section with definitions. (Well make it two sections - one =
for<BR>CAPWAP=20
      and the other which is "binding" specific.) For example, not all =
<BR>of=20
      the time period lengths are identified and specified in section=20
      4.5.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Unfortunately, the document has gone back =
and=20
      forth a few times<BR>and before we opt to change the structure of =
the=20
      document, I'd like to <BR>ensure that we have broad agreement on =
what we=20
      want - with the<BR>understanding that we will never make everyone=20
      happy.<BR><BR><BR>10) each operation should have listed in which =
states it=20
      can be sent and<BR>received<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I do not understand =
your=20
      comment.<BR><BR><BR>11) All strings, such as WTP location, should =
be=20
      changed from US-ASCII<BR>encoding to UTF-8 =
encoding.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      Agreed.<BR><BR>12) The term "mobile" is not really accurate when=20
      describing wireless <BR>interfaces, since wireless does not=20
      imply&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;mobile. Can we just =
use<BR>the=20
      techie term "STA" instead.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I agree we should =
use the=20
      term Station, or STA for short.<BR><BR><BR>13) The WTP Descriptor =
message=20
      element contains too much information, <BR>lacks clarity on the =
WTP=20
      encryption field and includes version numbers,<BR>which should be =
in=20
      string form.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To the first point, I disagree. I =
think=20
      there is value in knowing<BR>everything about the WTP. The AC =
vendors can=20
      expose whatever information <BR>they want, but I don't believe =
anything is=20
      unnecessary.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To the second point, this is one =
of those=20
      areas where the concept<BR>of the technology binding creates =
complexity.=20
      Given that we cannot<BR>simply discuss 802.11i at this point, the =
only=20
      thing we can do is punt<BR>to another section in the technology =
binding=20
      section. That said, I agree<BR>with Dave that the 802.11 binding =
section=20
      is too light in this area.<BR>However, I would much prefer that =
instead of=20
      trying to address this <BR>specific issue, we discuss whether we =
should=20
      even be supporting the mode<BR>of operation where 802.11i is =
performed in=20
      the AC - especially with the<BR>introduction of DTLS to secure the =
data=20
      plane. Right now, it just feels <BR>like we have too many options =
and I am=20
      worried that interoperability<BR>will be severely impacted (not to =
mention=20
      protocol complexity).<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To the last point, I have =
no=20
      issues with including text stating <BR>that the version numbers =
should be=20
      in string form.<BR><BR><BR>14) The WTP Descriptor information is =
not=20
      required at Join time.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Well, as far as I can =
tell, I=20
      think there's value in knowing<BR>whether the WTP can even be =
supported by=20
      the AC. So the more info is <BR>provided by the WTP, the better =
the AC can=20
      determine whether it should<BR>just ignore the WTP or not. This =
could be=20
      done because it knows that the<BR>firmware running on the WTP is =
not=20
      compatible, and it has no new<BR>firmware to =
download.<BR><BR><BR>15) Are=20
      the values in the WTP Frame Encryption a capabilities bit, or=20
      an<BR>enum?<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Looks like an enum to me. Not sure =
what=20
      Dave would prefer the text<BR>to read. There are various other =
similar=20
      comments throughout, which I <BR>will not repeat =
here.<BR><BR><BR>16) The=20
      Discovery Response is broken. The AC SHOULD NOT be providing =
any<BR>info=20
      to a WTP (or something that claims to be a WTP). Also, the =
AC<BR>should=20
      tell the WTP what to do next, with choices: 1) Ok to try to join, =
<BR>2)=20
      don't try to join, 3)=20
      =
try&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      discover on a list of<BR>returned ACs)<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I don't =
believe=20
      there is an issue with sending the AC's<BR>information to the WTP, =
but=20
      would solicit input from the list. That <BR>said, some of the =
information=20
      in the AC Descriptor is required, such as<BR>the current load on =
the AC.=20
      No point is trying to join if he AC<BR>indicates it's already at =
max=20
      capacity.<BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe if the AC does not return the =
response,=20
      then it implies <BR>(2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is handled =
during the=20
      join or configure<BR>process, which I believe is =
right.<BR><BR><BR>17) Is=20
      AC Name text?<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes, and same with WTP=20
      Name.<BR><BR><BR>18) Primary Discovery are not required.=20
      <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. Required for =
failover.<BR><BR><BR>19) The=20
      text does not make it clear that the contents of the =
WTP<BR>Location is=20
      informative only, and as Dave calls it, a =
"scratchpad".<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      Well, to be honest, I thought the example "next to the fridge" =
<BR>made it=20
      clear that the information did not derive from any =
scientific<BR>formula.=20
      The description also states this is a user-defined. I =
believe<BR>this=20
      should be good enough.<BR><BR><BR>20) Session is not=20
      required<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe you may be correct that with =
the=20
      transition to DTLS,<BR>this is no longer required.<BR><BR><BR>21) =
need to=20
      send "common name" as found in the WTP CERT so that the AC<BR>can=20
      verify<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; The protocol currently relies on the MAC =
address=20
      being the key<BR>that binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't =
see a need=20
      to change<BR>this.<BR><BR><BR>22) Result code in Join Response is =
not=20
      sufficient, for instance WTP HW <BR>not =
supported.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      Well, the protocol does not require this because the =
Discovery<BR>Response=20
      would never be sent (as the protocol stands today).<BR><BR><BR>23) =
AC=20
      IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering, which is unnecessary.=20
      <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Agreed.<BR><BR><BR>24) Change Echo to =
Keepalive or=20
      heartbeat.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I call it potato....<BR><BR><BR>25) =
What if=20
      all of the message elements do not fit within a single<BR>CAPWAP =
control=20
      frame. <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; We should address this.<BR><BR><BR>26) =
AC Name=20
      with Index is all messed up...<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Not really. You =
simply=20
      include more than one, and the index field<BR>is clearly the =
priority.=20
      Don't understand the Multi-AC comment. No <BR>inter-AC protocol =
implied=20
      here.<BR><BR><BR>27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not=20
      configure.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Agreed, but wonder even more why we =
are=20
      duplicating this<BR>information across both the WTP Descriptor and =
the WTP=20
      Board Data <BR>message elements.<BR><BR><BR>28) The WTP Static =
IPv4=20
      Address should not have the Static bit, but<BR>instead state that =
<A=20
      onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"http://0.0.0.0/" target=3D_blank>0.0.0.0 </A>means a =
static address is=20
      not to be used.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I don't have an issue with this =

      request, but in the end we have <BR>the same function. The reason =
why I=20
      state this is that we can refine<BR>this protocol until the cows =
come=20
      home, and at one point we need to draw <BR>a line in the=20
      sand.<BR><BR><BR>29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, =
and the=20
      reasons listed <BR>are not clear enough.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; =
Doesn't really=20
      matter whether this is included in the<BR>configuration or the =
join, but=20
      if the WG agrees to move it. We can <BR>clarify some of the =
reasons, as=20
      long as it provides value. <BR><BR><BR>30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP =
Radio=20
      Configuration message element's BSSID<BR>field should be an=20
      array.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree.<BR><BR><BR>30) The IEEE 802.11 =
WTP=20
      Radio Configuration message element's Country<BR>Code is not clear =

      enough.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; The text points to the actual MIB =
element in=20
      the 802.11-1999<BR>standard, which very clearly defines the =
contents of=20
      the field. I don't <BR>think there's value in replicating the =
format of=20
      this field in the <BR>CAPWAP standard.<BR><BR><BR>31) There seems =
like an=20
      awful lot of additional configuration message<BR>elements that =
need to be=20
      specified here!<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Having built a protocol based =
on this,=20
      it's not clear to me what's <BR>missing. I think it would be =
useful if you=20
      provided concrete details on<BR>what's missing.<BR><BR><BR>32)=20
      Configuration Status is just plain broken because any =
configuration=20
      <BR>change operation may fail and there is=20
      no&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
response to=20
      the <BR>configuration changes specified in this=20
      command.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; There certainly is - I guess I don't=20
      understand the concern.<BR><BR><BR>33) Use of Change State Event =
should=20
      instead be Radio Admin State. <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Perhaps the two =
are not=20
      described properly. The first is used by <BR>the WTP to inform the =
AC that=20
      something has occurred with a radio. The<BR>second is used by the =
AC to=20
      enable/disable a radio.<BR><BR><BR>34) Report Timer needs to be in =
section=20
      4.5 or 11<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; ok<BR><BR><BR>35) Should Idle Timeout =
be per=20
      radio, or per WTP, and should the value<BR>be defined in section =
4.5 or=20
      11.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine as =
it is.=20
      <BR><BR><BR>36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and should be =
removed.=20
      <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. I believe it is necessary to create =
enough=20
      resiliency in<BR>the protocol/service.<BR><BR><BR>37) How are the =
"Rate=20
      Set" and "Supported Rates" encoded. <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; This was =
fixed in=20
      the -02 <BR><BR><BR>38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the =
configuration,=20
      but instead in the<BR>join.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Not sure this =
really=20
      matters....<BR><BR><BR>39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so strange =
and is=20
      being managed like no <BR>other configuration =
data.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I=20
      do not understand the comment<BR><BR><BR>40) Decryption Error =
Report=20
      Period is not defined in section 4.5 or 11<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; ok, =
and note=20
      that the information has been moved to the IEEE <BR>802.11 RSNA =
Error=20
      Report From Mobile<BR><BR><BR>41) Configuration Update Response. =
today,=20
      there are primarily two types<BR>of configuration models. The =
first is=20
      when config is changed, it is only<BR>changed in the volatile copy =
(the=20
      memory or running). An explicit <BR>command is needed to save the =
config=20
      to nonvolatile storage. The second<BR>model has config both =
running=20
      (volatile) and saved (nonvolatile) config<BR>changed when a config =
change=20
      is made. And there might be a special<BR>command to have a config =
change=20
      apply to only one. In this case, there<BR>is no need for a "save =
config to=20
      nonvolatile" command. It is not clear<BR>what is suppose to be =
supported=20
      here in CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP <BR>support devices with no or =
very=20
      limited nonvolatile storage for config!<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; CAPWAP =
does not=20
      support WTPs with no nonvolatile storage. The<BR>protocol has the =
AC push=20
      configs to the WTP, which saves them at the <BR>time they are =
received. I=20
      do not believe anything else is required.<BR><BR><BR>42) =
Configuration=20
      Update Response includes the Result Code message<BR>element, which =

      includes values that do not appear to be relevant for <BR>this =
message,=20
      and there are plenty of other failure cases<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; ok, =
but=20
      note that we are sharing a common message element. =
Any<BR>suggestions on=20
      how to address your issue?<BR><BR><BR>43) Change State Event =
Report. This=20
      seems a little silly to be sent in <BR>the "configure" state. It =
seems=20
      only appropriate for the "run" state.<BR>Some might argue that =
even in the=20
      "run" state it shouldn't be sent after<BR>a "config update" =
request that=20
      changes the operational state. However, <BR>in the "run" state, it =
may=20
      take a while to have the operational state<BR>change to follow the =
admin=20
      state. Thus, I think it is OK in the "run"<BR>state after config=20
      changes."<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe this was addressed in -02.=20
      <BR><BR><BR>44) Clear Config Request. this operation has several =
problems,=20
      which<BR>include:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec =
says=20
      that this can only be done in<BR>the "run" state. This is silly. =
It should=20
      also be possible in the <BR>"configure" state.<BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I =
wonder why=20
      the AC would even consider clearing the WTP's state<BR>before it =
even=20
      knows how it is configured.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; 2) the value of=20
      "manufacturing defaults" is not defined, and a poor <BR>term to =
use, since=20
      it implies that that each manufacturer can have<BR>different =
values. If=20
      so, then the AC will have no knowledge of the<BR>config on the =
WTP! The=20
      problem of "default config values" has already be <BR>mentioned =
above.=20
      After each config attribute has been defined with a<BR>default =
value, then=20
      the proper term would be "CAPWAP config defaults".<BR>&lt;PRC&gt; =
Yes,=20
      you've raised this point already, and I agree that it does =
<BR>need to be=20
      addressed.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; 3) This operation is not defined to =
have a=20
      response. This is broken,<BR>since any config change can fail. =
Also, it is=20
      not defined what happens<BR>next. Does this cause the WTP to =
reboot an=20
      start a "clean discovery"? <BR>&lt;PRC&gt; This was addressed in=20
      -02<BR><BR><BR>45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are actually =
three=20
      different "Image<BR>Data Request" messages. Which one is=20
      =
determined&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;by =

      which of the<BR>three message elements is contained. This is =
completely=20
      silly! There <BR>should be three separate operations! =
Additionally, how=20
      does the WTP know<BR>which image to get? The AC should be making =
that=20
      decision.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe the WTP is the only device =
that=20
      knows what it's filename <BR>should be. Why would an AC vendor =
know about=20
      file naming conventions<BR>used by the WTP vendors? I believe your =
other=20
      issues are discussed in<BR>the next items.<BR><BR><BR>46) Image =
Data=20
      Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There <BR>needs =
to be=20
      message element that indicates=20
      =
the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<BR=
><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      How so? This is only used to send firmware to the WTP. Not =
clear<BR>what=20
      could fail... Reading the image from flash?<BR><BR><BR>47) Image =
Data=20
      Request. when starting over again at the WTP start state, <BR>the =
WTP=20
      shouldn't use the "normal" discovery process, but instead =
"fast<BR>track"=20
      a connection back to the AC that just downloaded the image. =
With<BR>a=20
      little=20
      =
more&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;work, we =

      could probably figure out a way to reuse <BR>the old DTLS=20
      session.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To what gain? What is so expensive =
about the=20
      discovery, and what<BR>happened if the AC was not longer=20
      reachable?<BR><BR><BR>48) opcode - if this is here, might as well =
also=20
      have a value that <BR>indicates last block of the image file, =
instead of=20
      looking at the block<BR>size.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; But we're just =
changing=20
      for the sake of changing - the protocol<BR>works =
as-is.<BR><BR><BR>49)=20
      since this operation does not have the block number as a =
parameter,=20
      <BR>the WTP must determine the block number via the CAPWAP message =

      header<BR>sequence number.&nbsp;&nbsp;NOTE: DTLS does not provide =
in-order=20
      delivery of<BR>packets. Also, this requires the WTP to remember =
state.=20
      This message<BR>element should be re-engineered to have the =
following=20
      subfields: <BR>[edited]<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; The control header =
includes a=20
      sequence number, and while we can<BR>change the current protocol =
to match=20
      your recommendations, the protocol<BR>does work. If it ain't=20
      broken...<BR><BR><BR>50) Image Data Response. this is silly. This=20
      operation can fail!&nbsp;&nbsp;For <BR>example, the WTP can run =
out of=20
      space to=20
      =
store&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the=20
      block, or<BR>there could be a failure in writing the block to =
storage. (Or=20
      as "Image<BR>Data Request"(9.1a) is presently specified, the =
checksum=20
      match could <BR>fail.) There needs to be message element that =
indicates=20
      the result.)<BR>Note: don't need a block number field, since =
request and=20
      responses are<BR>paired.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; We can include a =
result=20
      code<BR><BR><BR>51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief=20
      <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-). =
Seriously,=20
      the protocol<BR>does work, so what exactly are you looking=20
      for?<BR><BR><BR>52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This =
operation can=20
      fail! There<BR>needs to be message element that indicates=20
      =
the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<BR=
><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      See above comment.<BR><BR>53) Reset Request. =
...<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; The=20
      comment is irrelevant now that Clear Config has =
changed.<BR><BR><BR>54)=20
      Reset Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There =
needs<BR>to=20
      be message element that indicates=20
      =
the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<BR=
><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      I sense a trend. I will stop including these messages from now=20
      on.<BR><BR><BR>55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this =
reported if=20
      the condition<BR>remains?<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Only required once, I =
think,=20
      but we may want to include some text<BR>covering =
that.<BR><BR><BR>56) the=20
      list of events seems understated! <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Text and =
conditions=20
      please<BR><BR><BR>57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have -=20
      remove.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. Providing diagnostics =
capabilities is=20
      required.<BR><BR><BR>58) Mobile Config Request. the actual details =
of how=20
      this works on both <BR>splitMAC and especially localMAC are not =
well=20
      specified. That is, only<BR>the figures and text in sections =
11.1.1 and=20
      11.1.2 provide any clue as<BR>to events that would cause an AC to =
send=20
      this message type. Also, there <BR>are restrictions on =
combinations of=20
      parameters that can be included in<BR>the =
message.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I=20
      wonder whether other folks agree that more details are=20
      required.<BR><BR><BR>59) it doesn't say if one message can be used =
to=20
      update more than one <BR>STA. It should be =
able.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; No,=20
      otherwise you end up with the problem of associating =
specific<BR>message=20
      elements with a given mobile. One mobile per =
request.<BR><BR><BR>60) IEEE=20
      802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC address be included so =
<BR>this=20
      message element can be matched with a (4.4.8)Add Mobile=20
      message<BR>element?<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe this is to your =
previous=20
      point, but the protocol assumes<BR>one mobile per =
request.<BR><BR><BR>61)=20
      IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for data traffic to the AC?=20
      If<BR>so, then why is this an 802.11 message =
element<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
      Intended to be a way to push policies to the WTP to =
prioritize<BR>mobile=20
      traffic.<BR><BR><BR>62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why is a =
new=20
      message type that is<BR>802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11 =
WLANs? It=20
      seems like the<BR>existing "(8.4)Configuration Update Request" =
message=20
      could be used.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To be more specific only.=20
      <BR><BR><BR>63) note here there are information elements to =
create,=20
      delete, and<BR>modify WLANs. However, for message type =
"(10.1)Mobile=20
      Config Request",<BR>there is only add and delete (and the "add" =
used to=20
      modify). <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Correct. The protocol requires the AC =
to=20
      resend a new add with a<BR>different policy. No specific reason, =
but if=20
      this is deemed<BR>inconsistent, we could change it.<BR><BR><BR>64) =
IEEE=20
      802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping of WLAN IDs to BSSIDs =
<BR>seems=20
      like it needs a little more work<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; What exactly =
would you=20
      like to see?<BR><BR><BR>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
      Unit<BR>Cisco Systems<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----=20
      <BR>&gt; From: David T. Perkins [mailto:<A=20
      onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com"=20
      target=3D_blank>dperkins@dsperkins.com</A>]<BR>&gt; Sent: =
Thursday, June 22,=20
      2006 4:31 PM <BR>&gt; To: <A=20
      onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com" =
target=3D_blank>capwap@frascone.com=20
      </A><BR>&gt; Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01=20
      operations<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; HI, <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I've attached a =
long file=20
      that summarizes the operations in<BR>&gt; =
CAPWAP-01.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
      Enjoy,<BR>&gt; /david t. perkins=20
      =
<BR>&gt;<BR>_____________________________________________________________=
____=20
      <BR>To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please=20
      visit:<BR><A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
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      target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=20
      </A><BR><BR>Archives: <A=20
      onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap"=20
      =
target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap</A><BR></BLOCK=
QUOTE></DIV><BR></SPAN></DIV><BR>________________________________________=
_________________________<BR>To=20
    unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<BR><A =

    onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
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target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</A><BR>=
<BR>Archives:=20
    <A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue 137 - Proposal for
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue 137 - Proposal for
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I believe we need to wait until a resolution has been made before
proceeding with any proposed changes to the packet header.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:11 AM
	To: Michael Montemurro
	Cc: capwap
	Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue 137 -
Proposal for arevised packet header
=09
=09
	Hi Mike,
	=20
	Use of a mux header, (regardless of 1 or 2 ports, not needed if
3 ports are used) is also one solution to the (recently opened
	Issue 224, regarding the) need to clearly distinguish Discovery
frames in the control channel:
	=20
	"I have a basic question regarding the classification of packets
exchanged over
	control channel. It is stated in the draft that AC in Idle state
can receive
	Discovery as well as DTLS clientHello (+other dtls handshake)
packets. The=20
	clientHello packets are delivered to the SSL layer and Discovery
packets are
	consumed by the CAPWAP. Question is how? The draft assumes some
magic
	way of doing it. Since both of the packets are in plain, and are
received on=20
	a single udp port, which state/policy/field classifies such
packets from one
	another? Theoretically speaking, WTP can send a discovery packet
which is
	also a valid clientHello packet! Now AC would respond with a
discovery=20
	response or a clientHello reponse?
=09
	In thread
http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap/msg03035.html
<http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap/msg03035.html> , Pat talks
about
	the negotiated policy for the appropriate treatment of the
received packets. That may=20
	mean, if the AC is in join onwards state, it can be assumed that
AC will only receive
	encrypted packets. Though this policy can work, but there would
be exceptions in
	which WTP dies and comes back with a discovery packet. AC still
being in join+=20
	state, the received packets will be delivered to the SSL layer.
Assumptions can be
	made here that SSL would discard non-dtls packets and with
timeouts in picture, WTP
	and AC would eventually reach a consensus. But is this ok to
assume?=20
=09
	In the same thread, Perkins suggested the mux header approach
for control channel,
	but it was not acknowledged? Is there some other hidden
mechanism for the
	classification? Or there is some basic point which I miss here?"

	=20
	This issue is noted in the issue 137 text (there is alot of
text), and
	is stated in terms of protected vs unprotected messages, though
the
	note comments that this is essentially the same as identifying
the Discover (unprotected
	contro)l message:
	=20
	NOTE: A CAPWAP MUX header is needed whether or not the same or
	       different UDP ports are used for CAPWAP control and
	       data messages. This is because both CAPWAP data and
	       control messages can be unprotected or protected by=20
	       DTLS, and the MUX header is needed to distinguish
	       protected from unprotected. Remember that CAPWAP
	       "discovery requests" and "discovery responses" are
	       unprotected, and that all other CAPWAP control=20
	       message types are protected.
	=20
	The current -02 draft in incomplete in its specification of how=20
	Discovery frames are clearly identified. The header definition
proposed in issue 137, or a variant -
	one that differentiates between discovery, control and data
CAPWAP messages for example, provides a means to clearly identify
Discovery frames.
	=20
	If an implementation has another means - the issue 224 commenter
used the term "magic",  to=20
	disambiguate the frames, that implementation can chose to ignore
an added mux field; however
	the protocol should be explicit.

	Dorothy


	=20
	On 9/23/06, Michael Montemurro <montemurro.michael@gmail.com >
wrote:=20

		I don't see why a MUX header is required even if the
decision to go with separate control and data ports. I don't see how
this header definition is better than what is currently in draft -02.=20
		=20
		If there are specific edits to the header that are
required, I would like to know what they are; otherwise I propose
closing this issue.
		=20
		Cheers,
		=20
		Mike

=09
_________________________________________________________________
		To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options,
please visit:
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	=09
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	=09
	=09



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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2976" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D604344316-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
believe we need to wait until a resolution has been made before =
proceeding with=20
any proposed changes to the packet header.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Dorothy Stanley=20
  [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September =
28, 2006=20
  9:11 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Michael Montemurro<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue =
137 -=20
  Proposal for arevised packet header<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Hi Mike,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Use of a&nbsp;mux header, (regardless of&nbsp;1 or 2 ports, not =
needed if=20
  3 ports are used)&nbsp;is also one solution to the (recently =
opened</DIV>
  <DIV>Issue 224, regarding the) need to clearly distinguish Discovery =
frames in=20
  the control channel:</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><EM><FONT size=3D2>"I have a basic question regarding the =
classification of=20
  packets exchanged over<BR>control channel. It is stated in the draft =
that AC=20
  in Idle state can receive<BR>Discovery as well as DTLS clientHello =
(+other=20
  dtls handshake) packets. The <BR>clientHello packets are delivered to =
the SSL=20
  layer and Discovery packets are<BR>consumed by the CAPWAP. Question is =
how?=20
  The draft assumes some magic<BR>way of doing it. Since both of the =
packets are=20
  in plain, and are received on <BR>a single udp port, which =
state/policy/field=20
  classifies such packets from one<BR>another? Theoretically speaking, =
WTP can=20
  send a discovery packet which is<BR>also a valid clientHello packet! =
Now AC=20
  would respond with a discovery <BR>response or a clientHello=20
  reponse?</FONT><BR><BR><FONT size=3D2>In thread </FONT></EM><A=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap/msg03035.html"=20
  target=3D_blank><SPAN></SPAN><FONT=20
  =
size=3D2><EM>http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap/msg03035.html</EM=
></FONT></A><FONT=20
  size=3D2><EM>, Pat talks about<BR>the negotiated policy for the =
appropriate=20
  treatment of the received packets. That may <BR>mean, if the AC is in =
join=20
  onwards state, it can be assumed that AC will only =
receive<BR>encrypted=20
  packets. Though this policy can work, but there would be exceptions=20
  in<BR>which WTP dies and comes back with a discovery packet. AC still =
being in=20
  join+ <BR>state, the received packets will be delivered to the SSL =
layer.=20
  Assumptions can be<BR>made here that SSL would discard non-dtls =
packets and=20
  with timeouts in picture, WTP<BR>and AC would eventually reach a =
consensus.=20
  But is this ok to assume? <BR><BR>In the same thread, Perkins =
suggested the=20
  mux header approach for control channel,<BR>but it was not =
acknowledged? Is=20
  there some other hidden mechanism for the<BR>classification? Or there =
is some=20
  basic point which I miss here?" </EM></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>This issue is noted in the issue 137 text (there =
is alot of=20
  text), and</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>is stated in terms of protected vs unprotected =
messages,=20
  though the</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>note comments that this&nbsp;is essentially the =
same as=20
  identifying the Discover (unprotected</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>contro)l message</FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><EM>NOTE: A CAPWAP MUX header is needed whether or not the same=20
  or<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; different UDP ports are =
used for=20
  CAPWAP control and<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; data =
messages. This=20
  is because both CAPWAP data =
and<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  control messages can be unprotected or protected by=20
  <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DTLS, and the MUX header is =
needed to=20
  distinguish<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; protected from=20
  unprotected. Remember that =
CAPWAP<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  "discovery requests" and "discovery responses"=20
  are<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; unprotected, and that all =
other=20
  CAPWAP control <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; message types =
are=20
  protected</EM>.</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>The current -02 draft in incomplete in its =
specification of=20
  how </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Discovery frames are clearly identified. =
The&nbsp;header=20
  definition&nbsp;proposed in&nbsp;issue 137, or a variant =
-</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>one that differentiates between discovery, control =
and data=20
  CAPWAP messages for example</FONT><FONT size=3D2>, provides a =
</FONT><FONT=20
  size=3D2>means to clearly identify Discovery frames.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>If an&nbsp;implementation has another means - the =
issue 224=20
  commenter used the term "magic", &nbsp;to </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>disambiguate the frames, that implementation can =
chose=20
  to&nbsp;ignore&nbsp;an added&nbsp;mux field; however</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>the protocol should be explicit.</FONT></DIV>
  <P>Dorothy</P>
  <DIV><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 9/23/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Michael=20
  Montemurro</B> &lt;<A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com"=20
  target=3D_blank>montemurro.michael@gmail.com </A>&gt; wrote:</SPAN>=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
#ccc 1px solid">
    <DIV>I don't see why a MUX header is required even if the decision =
to go=20
    with separate control and data ports. I don't see how this header =
definition=20
    is better than what is currently in draft -02. </DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>If there are specific edits to the header that are required, I =
would=20
    like to know what they are; otherwise I propose closing this =
issue.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    =
<DIV>Mike</DIV><BR>______________________________________________________=
___________<BR>To=20
    unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<BR><A =

    onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap"=20
    =
target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</A><BR>=
<BR>Archives:=20
    <A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap"=20
    target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20
  </A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 17:14:25 -0400
From: Charles Clancy <clancy@cs.umd.edu>
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To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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Cc: Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com>,
	Saravanan Govindan <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>,
	Cheng Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>,
	capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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Slight clarification... my previous posts indicated that transporting 
the PMK to the WTP would break the security model.  To accomplish what 
Saravanan is talking about only requires transporting the KCK after 
message 2 of the 4-way handshake.

In the 11i keying hierarchy, the TK (made up of the KCK, KEK, and PTK) 
is derived from the PMK based on the 4-way-handshake.  We're already 
transporting the PTK from the AC to the WTP in this scenario for CCMP 
and TKIP to use.  Transporting the KCK too and allowing the WTP to 
perform the MAC doesn't break the current security model.

Now, as to whether or not it makes sense from an implementation 
standpoint, I'll leave to those with strong opinions than I.

-- 
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy

Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
> This would require the AC to send additional keying information to the
> WTP, since message three needs to be authenticated. So I disagree with
> this proposal. The change is much more sinificant than simply leaving
> the field zero.
> 
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
> 
>  
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Saravanan Govindan [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com] 
>> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 12:08 AM
>> To: Cheng Hong; Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman
>> Cc: capwap
>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
>> Considerations
>>
>> Hi Cheng Hong, Scott,
>>
>> I share your concerns for setting the KeyRSC to 0. 
>>
>> In my opinion, it is clear that the protocol is "broken" in 
>> this case and needs to be fixed. 
>>
>> My suggestion is to have the KeyRSC field be updated by the 
>> WTP. So the AC could send Message-3 of the 4-way handshake to 
>> the WTP with an empty KeyRSC field. The WTP could then 
>> correctly update the field, compute the KeyMIC, update 
>> Message-3 and then forward it to the STA. 
>>
>> Of course, this requires a CAPWAP message from the AC and WTP 
>> to exchange the incomplete Message-3. I think this is an 
>> acceptable addition because it maintains the integrity of 
>> 802.11i exchanges and provides a complete fix to the problem. 
>>
>> Saravanan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
>> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:21 PM
>> To: Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman
>> Cc: capwap
>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
>> Considerations
>>
>> Hi Scott,
>>
>> Some comments below:
>>
>>> After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring 
>> myself to agree 
>>> with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think always using an RSC 
>>> value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that we've acknowledged we are 
>>> introducing a vulnerability here (however slight), telling 
>>> implementors they SHOULD do this just doesn't sit right with me.
>>>
>>> An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do better than 
>>> always setting this to zero, and explicitly recommending 
>> that people 
>>> nail this window open just rubs me the wrong way. At least, 
>> let's hold 
>>> off on this decision until we've clearly defined what statistics we 
>>> expect to be available. Seems like if we're going to tell 
>> implementors 
>>> what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well considered 
>>> advice.
>> I absolutely agree with you on this point. 
>>
>> What I was trying to state in my previous emails was:
>> - I would against setting a static value for the KeyRSC as a 
>> solution to this issue. 
>> - However if the WG decided to go for a static value, the 
>> draft should clearly point out that NOT all static value 
>> could work (value other than zero may be a problem for 
>> interoperability).
>> - And the draft needs to clearly point out what is the danger 
>> of setting a static KeyRSC value in the security 
>> consideration section.
>> - Also, the draft should not prohibit other implementation 
>> for sync the KeyRSC value between WTP and AC (the CAPWAP 
>> standard should not dictate such implementation incompatible). 
>>
>> If there is a alternative solution than setting a static 
>> KeyRSC value to narrow the window, I would vote for it.
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> Cheng Hong
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com]
>>> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:26 AM
>>> To: Margaret Wasserman
>>> Cc: capwap
>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
>>> Considerations
>>>
>>> Hi Margaret,
>>>
>>> Comments inline below...
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com>
>>>> Sent: Oct 6, 2006 9:39 AM
>>>> To: Scott G Kelly <scott@hyperthought.com>
>>>> Cc: Cheng Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>, capwap 
>>>> <capwap@frascone.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
>>> Considerations
>>>>
>>>> While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal 
>>>> implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to the 
>>>> protocol portion of the document (as well as the security
>>>> considerations) to explain how this is handled.  How about 
>> something
>>>> like:
>>>>
>>>> The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of 
>> the 4-way 
>>>> 802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more 
>> optimal RSC 
>>>> value to use.  Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC
>>> value are
>>>> outside the scope of this specification.
>>>>
>>>> I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope that 
>>>> implementors figure this out.
>>>>
>>>> Margaret
>>> After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring 
>> myself to agree 
>>> with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think always using an RSC 
>>> value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that we've acknowledged we are 
>>> introducing a vulnerability here (however slight), telling 
>>> implementors they SHOULD do this just doesn't sit right with me.
>>>
>>> An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do better than 
>>> always setting this to zero, and explicitly recommending 
>> that people 
>>> nail this window open just rubs me the wrong way. At least, 
>> let's hold 
>>> off on this decision until we've clearly defined what statistics we 
>>> expect to be available. Seems like if we're going to tell 
>> implementors 
>>> what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well considered 
>>> advice.
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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hmmm.... this seems to be a bug. First of all, why would the WTP have to
wait prior to establishing the DTLS session? Why is this simply not
automatic?
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)=20
	Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 7:31 PM
	To: Capwap@frascone.com
	Subject: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question
=09
=09
=09
	All,
	=20
	Idle to Discovery transition talks about Discovery Interval
timer:
	=20
	 Idle to Discovery (a): This transition occurs once device
	      initialization is complete.
	=20
	      WTP: The WTP enters the Discovery state prior to
transmitting the
	         first Discovery Request message (see Section 5.1).
Upon
	         entering this state, the WTP sets the DiscoveryInterval
timer
	         (see Section 4.5).  The WTP resets the DiscoveryCount
counter
	         to zero (0) (see Section 4.6).  The WTP also clears all
	         information from ACs it may have received during a
previous
	         Discovery phase.
=09
	=20
	But DiscoveryInterval timer is described as:
	=20
=09
	4.5.1.  DiscoveryInterval
	=20
	   The minimum time, in seconds, that a WTP MUST wait after
receiving a
	   Discovery Response, before initiating a DTLS handshake.
	=20
	Should Idle to Discovery actually be based on
MaxDiscoveryInterval timer? Also, there is mention of DiscoveryInterval
timer even in transition from Discovery to Discovery.
	=20
	4.5.6.  MaxDiscoveryInterval
	=20
	   The maximum time allowed between sending discovery requests
from the
	   interface, in seconds.  Must be no less than 2 seconds and no
greater
	   than 180 seconds.
	=20
	   Default: 20 seconds.
	=20
	Thanks
	Smitha
=09
=09


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	charset="us-ascii"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2976" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D616221519-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>hmmm.... this seems to be a bug. First of all, why would the =
WTP have to=20
wait prior to establishing the DTLS session? Why is this simply not=20
automatic?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) =
<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
  Tuesday, October 03, 2006 7:31 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  Capwap@frascone.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Capwap] discovery interval =
timer=20
  question<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006><SPAN=20
  class=3D023223002-04102006>All,</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006><SPAN=20
  class=3D023223002-04102006></SPAN></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006>Idle to =
Discovery=20
  transition talks about Discovery Interval timer:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D979422410-03102006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN =
class=3D979422410-03102006>&nbsp;Idle=20
  to Discovery (a): This transition occurs once=20
  device<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; initialization is=20
  complete.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  class=3D979422410-03102006>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WTP: The WTP =
enters=20
  the Discovery state prior to transmitting=20
  the<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; first =
Discovery=20
  Request message (see Section 5.1).&nbsp;=20
  Upon<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; entering this =
state,=20
  the WTP sets the DiscoveryInterval=20
  timer<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (see Section =

  4.5).&nbsp; The WTP resets the DiscoveryCount=20
  counter<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to zero =
(0) (see=20
  Section 4.6).&nbsp; The WTP also clears=20
  all<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; information =
from ACs=20
  it may have received during a=20
  previous<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Discovery =

  phase.<BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D979422410-03102006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006>But =
DiscoveryInterval=20
  timer is described as:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D979422410-03102006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006><FONT =
face=3DArial></FONT><BR><FONT=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff>4.5.1.&nbsp; =
DiscoveryInterval</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006><FONT face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff>&nbsp;&nbsp; The minimum time, in seconds, that a WTP =
MUST wait=20
  after receiving a<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Discovery Response, before =
initiating a DTLS=20
  handshake.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006><FONT face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#000000>Should Idle to Discovery actually be based on=20
  MaxDiscoveryInterval timer? Also, there is mention of =
DiscoveryInterval timer=20
  even in transition from Discovery to =
Discovery.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#000000></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  class=3D979422410-03102006>4.5.6.&nbsp; =
MaxDiscoveryInterval</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  class=3D979422410-03102006>&nbsp;&nbsp; The maximum time allowed =
between sending=20
  discovery requests from the<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; interface, in =
seconds.&nbsp; Must=20
  be no less than 2 seconds and no greater<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; than 180=20
  seconds.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D+0><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Default: 20 =
seconds.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>Thanks</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D979422410-03102006><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>Smitha</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  =
size=3D2></FONT></DIV></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HT=
ML>

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I'm ok with Dorothy's proposed recommendations.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 3:28 PM
	To: capwap
	Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 143:
Specification for theusage of CERTS for CAPWAP/was CERT issues in
CAPWAP-01
=09
=09
	All,
=09
	Proposed resolutions for the several components of Issue 143 are
included below.
	Issue 143 is also copied below.
=09
	Comments please.
=09
	Thanks,
=09
	Dorothy
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------
	1) It should be OK for the clock on a WTP to be "wacky",
	  due to having no battery backed up clock, the battery
	  going bad, the clock never set properly. On the other
	  hand, an AC's clock should be set pretty accurately.
	  I't not sure that the recommendations support this
	  scenario. In general, want to support:
	    0) WTPs with no management interface (other than CAPWAP)
	    1) first time use of WTP after being manufactured
	    2) continued use of WTP after long time operation
	    3) continued use in short term deployments (such
	        as WiFi network used by a Circus that moves from
	        town to town (setting up and tearing down for
	        for each move), or for the WiFi network used
	        at conferences (such as the IETF).
=09
	Proposed resolution: Adopt Charles' Clancy's recommendation to=20
	Replace the following text:
=09
	 Proper validation of certificates typically requires checking
to
	   ensure the certificate has not yet expired.  If devices have
a real-
	   time clock, they SHOULD verify the certificate validity
dates.  If no
	   real-time clock is available, the device SHOULD attempt to
determine
	   the current time using NTP prior to certificate validation.
If
	   neither is available, devices SHOULD verify that the start
validity
	   date of its peer's certificate is less than its own
certificate's
	   expiration date, and its peer's expiration date is greater
than its
	   own start date.  Note that failure to check a certificate's
temporal
	   validity can make a device vulnerable to man-in-the-middle
attacks
	   launched using compromised, expired certificates, and
therefore
	   devices should make every effort to perform this validation.
=09
=09
	with
=09
=09
	Proper validation of certificates typically requires checking to
	   ensure the certificate has not yet expired.  If devices have
a
	   real-time clock, they SHOULD verify the certificate validity
dates.=20
=09
	   If no real-time clock is available, the device SHOULD make a
	   best-effort attempt to validate the certificate validity
dates
	   through other means.  Failure to check a certificate's
temporal=20
=09
	   validity can make a device vulnerable to man-in-the-middle
attacks
	   launched using compromised, expired certificates, and
therefore
	   devices should make every effort to perform this validation.=20
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------
=09
	2) The new text suggests the common name in the format
	  "01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET" for WTPs. And implies
	  that "DOMAIN.NET <http://domain.net/> " is the "administrative
domain".
	  To me, "administrative domain" implies the user
	  of the WTP. But, I believe that the WTP manufacturer
	  must be required to generate a CERT (and the WTP
	  should come "preloaded" with the CERT), and the user
	  of the WTP should not have to create the WTP CERT.
	  (By the way, not sure how long the CERT should be
	  valid.) Thus, I see no need or desire for
	   "@DOMAIN.NET <http://domain.net/> " added to the common name,
and suggest
	  that it be removed. (Also, I think that we have
	  now a new requirement to be able via CAPWAP to
	  replace the WTP's CERT with another, and may be
	  to add CA CERTs for the AC's CERT chain. Also,
	  what is the min depth that a WTP should support?)
=09
	Proposed Resolution:
	Adopt David's suggestion to drop the @DOMAIN.NET and
	add a sentence describing the storage requirements on the WTP
and AC:
=09
	Change from:
=09
	  Another important part of certificate authentication is
binding a
	   certificate to a particular device.  There are many ways to
	   accomplish this.  CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the
certificate common
	   name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII
HEX,
	   followed by an @ symbol, and then an administrative domain.
For
	   example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET.  During
authentication,
	   devices SHOULD ensure that the MAC matches the MAC specified
in the
	   CAPWAP header, and that the domain in both the AC and WTP
	   certificates match.
=09
	to=20
	  Another important part of certificate authentication is
binding a
	   certificate to a particular device.  There are many ways to
	   accomplish this.  CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the
certificate common
	   name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII
HEX,
	   for example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab.  During authentication,
	   devices SHOULD ensure that the MAC address matches the MAC
	   address  specified in the CAPWAP header. If this mechanism is
used, the ACs SHOULD
	   maintain list of all authorized WTP MAC addresses and the WTP
SHOULD
	   save the AC credential or credential identifier.
=09
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------
	3) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be selfsigned,
	    and MUST have a common name of the ASCII
	    of the MAC address (or other unique ID,
	    such as serial number)
=09
	Proposed resolution:=20
	No change to the text regarding use of self-signed certs. While
the use
	of self-signed certs may not
	be widespread,  there isn't a compelling need to preclude their
	use in a CAPWAP application.=20
=09
	Change the text to require that WTP certs MUST have a
	common mane of the ASCII of the MAC address:
=09
	from:
	CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the certificate common
	   name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII
HEX,
	   for example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab.
=09
	to
=09
	Specificaiton of the certificate common
	   name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII
HEX,
	   for example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab is REQUIRED for use with the
CAPWAP protocol.
=09
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------
	  4)  The Join Request must be updated to include
	    the common name as a message element
=09
	Proposed resolution: No change to the text. The join request
	currenly includes the BSSID. Also, since the JOIN occurs inside
the DTLS tunnel, it is
	 implicitly bound to the MAC (assuming certs were used for
authentication, and=20
	this is N/A for preshared key authentication).
=09
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------
	  5) specify that WTPs must continue even when it
	    believes its CERT or the AC's CERT is outside
	    the time window
=09
	Proposed resolution: No change to the document.
	That seems equivalent to mandating WTPs never validate
timestamps on any
	AC certs.  What if the WTP has a real-time clock and actually
CAN
	distinguish between good and bad certs?
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
	.
	 6) Tthe CAPWAP protocol must have a new message
	      to install an updated CERT for the WTP.
=09
=09
	Proposed resolution: Defer for consideration in the next version
of CAPWAP;=20
	the mechanisms for certificate distribution and management are
	quite complex re: certifcate formats, content, generation etc.=20
=09
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
=09
	 7) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message
	      to install a CA CERT.
=09
	Proposed resolution: Defer for consideration in the next version
of CAPWAP;=20
	the mechanisms for certificate distribution and management are
	quite complex re: certifcate formats, content, management.
=09

=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
	Issue 143:=20
=09
=09
=09
	1) Cipher Suites for CERTS
	CAPWAP-01 has the following cipher suites specified:
	TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA,
	TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA, and
	TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA
=09
	The above is a mistake, and the following should be used:
=09
=09
	TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA,
	TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA, and
	TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA
=09
	2) CERT usage type:
	CAPWAP-01 has the folllwing about CERTS:
	 =20
	2.4.4.3
	<http://2.4.4.3> .  Certificate Usage
=09
	  Validation of the certificates by the AC and WTP is required
so that
	  only an AC may perform the functions of an AC and that only a
WTP may
	  perform the functions of a WTP.  This restriction of functions
to the
=09
=09
	  AC or WTP requires that the certificates used by the AC MUST
be
	  distinguishable from the certificate used by the WTP.  To
accomplish
	  this differentiation, the x.509v3 certificates MUST include
the
	  Extensions field [11] and MUST include the NetscapeComment
[15]
=09
=09
	  extension.
=09
	  For an AC, the value of the NetscapeComment extension MUST be
the
	  string "CAPWAP AC Device Certificate".  For a WTP, the value
of the
	  NetscapeComment extension MUST be the string "CAPWAP WTP
Device
=09
=09
	  Certificate".
=09
	  Part of the CAPWAP certificate validation process includes
ensuring
	  that the proper string is included in the NetscapeComment
extension,
	  and only allowing the CAPWAP session to be established if the
=09
=09
	  extension does not represent the same role as the device
validating
	  the certificate.  For instance, a WTP MUST NOT accept a
certificate
	  whose NetscapeComment field is set to "CAPWAP WTP Device
=09
	  Certificate".
=09
=09
	Using the "NetscapeComment extension" is not appropriate.
=09
	3) Selfsigned CERTs, CA CERTs, and validity checking
	I didn't see anything about whether or not the CERTs
	were selfsigned. And if not selfsigned, who would sign them.
=09
=09
	Also, how would a limited resource WTP verify an AC's cert?
	What if the WTP had no realtime clock (or a realtime clock
	with an unknown certainty)?
=09
	4) Common Name in a WTP's CERT
	I believe that the common name on the WTP's CERT
=09
=09
	must be the WTP's ID (which would be either the serial
	number or "base MAC address"), and should be provided
	as a parameter on the join.
=09
	Two small, but important issues are:
	1) It should be OK for the clock on a WTP to be "wacky",
	  due to having no battery backed up clock, the battery
	  going bad, the clock never set properly. On the other
	  hand, an AC's clock should be set pretty accurately.
	  I't not sure that the recommendations support this
	  scenario. In general, want to support:
	    0) WTPs with no management interface (other than CAPWAP)
	    1) first time use of WTP after being manufactured
	    2) continued use of WTP after long time operation
	    3) continued use in short term deployments (such
	        as WiFi network used by a Circus that moves from
	        town to town (setting up and tearing down for
	        for each move), or for the WiFi network used
	        at conferences (such as the IETF).
	2) The new text suggests the common name in the format
	  "01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET" for WTPs. And implies
	  that "DOMAIN.NET <http://domain.net/> " is the "administrative
domain".
	  To me, "administrative domain" implies the user
	  of the WTP. But, I believe that the WTP manufacturer
	  must be required to generate a CERT (and the WTP
	  should come "preloaded" with the CERT), and the user
	  of the WTP should not have to create the WTP CERT.
	  (By the way, not sure how long the CERT should be
	  valid.) Thus, I see no need or desire for
	   "@DOMAIN.NET <http://domain.net/> " added to the common name,
and suggest
	  that it be removed. (Also, I think that we have
	  now a new requirement to be able via CAPWAP to
	  replace the WTP's CERT with another, and may be
	  to add CA CERTs for the AC's CERT chain. Also,
	  what is the min depth that a WTP should support?)
=09
=09
	So, it appears to me that the following changes
	are required to CAPWAP-01:
	 1) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be selfsigned,
	    and MUST have a common name of the ASCII
	    of the MAC address (or other unique ID,
	    such as serial number)
	 2) The Join Request must be updated to include
	    the common name as a message element
	 3) specify that WTPs must continue even when it
	    believes its CERT or the AC's CERT is outside
	    the time window
	 4) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message
	    to install an updated CERT for the WTP.
	 5) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message
	    to install a CA CERT.
=09
=09
=09
	On 6/15/06, Michael Montemurro < montemurro.michael@gmail.com
<mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com> > wrote:=20

		All,
		=20
		I've created issue 143 to deal with this problemm.
	=09
		=20
	=09
		On 6/15/06, Scott G Kelly <scott@hyperthought.com >
wrote:=20

			Hi David,
		=09
			Like I said previously, I agree with pretty much
everything Charles
			said, so I won't re-iterate his points, and will
instead simply add a=20
			few comments below:
		=09
			David T. Perkins wrote:
			> HI,
			>
			> Thank you for responding to my issues. It
seems to me that
			> we are not yet looking at the same problem. So
let me try
			> again.=20
			>
			> What I was trying to point out is that there
are a few
			> VERY common scenarios (use cases) where the
clock on
			> a WTP can be totally wrong. If a WTP is coded
so that
			> it will not continue and communicate with an
AC when=20
			> it thinks the AC's CERTs are outside the time
window,
			> (or it thinks that it's on CERTs are outside
the time
			> window) then you will have a useless device (a
brick).
			> In many (maybe most) deployments, it costs
more to=20
			> physically touch a WTP than the equipment cost
of the WTP.
			> At the Dallas IETF, there were APs that were
"somewhere"
			> in the ceiling not doing any useful work, but
sending
			> out beacons with their config'ed SSID because
it was=20
			> too expensive to find them, and take them
down. It
			> was more cost effective to just new new APs.
			>
			> For an AC, it's clock must be accurate,
			> and it would be OK for it to not proceed if it
believes=20
			> its CERTs are outside their time window. But,
the
			> CAPWAP protocol should allow an AC to
establish
			> a session with a WTP that has a WACKY clock
(and
			> even a CERT that has expired). NOTE: the AC
clock=20
			> must be pretty accurate for management (such
as
			> logs) to be useful (or work). The CAPWAP
protocol has
			> support to set the WTP's clock. But it doesn't
have support
			> to update a CERT in a WTP. It seems like this
is=20
			> needed.
			>
			> Assume the clocks are OK, now lets talk about
WTP
			> CERT validation by the AC. This wasn't
addressed, but
			> I believe that WTP CERTs MUST be signed by the
			> WTP manufacturer, or one of the WELL KNOWN
certification=20
			> authorities. Adding the CA CERTs in an AC is
done through
			> means outside of CAPWAP (such as via the CLI
			> on the AC). Thus, WTP CERTs MUST NOT be
selfsigned.
			> And, I believe that the WTPs CERTs should have

			> for the common name the ASCII of MAC address,
			> or other unique ID of the WTP (and this must
be provided
			> in the Join Request message). I didn't
understand
			> in the previous text, nor in your message
below=20
			> why the common name would have a suffix of
			> "@DOMAIN.NET".
			>
			> Now lets talk about AC CERT validation by the
WTP.=20
			> The CERT for the AC can be created by the AC=20
			> manufacturer, the user, or 3rd party. It could
			> be selfsigned, or have a chain from the
manufacturer
			> or a WELL KNOWN CA. Given this, it will be
difficult
			> for a WTP to verify a AC CERT, at least the
first=20
			> time. This is just a "leap of faith" if the
CERT
			> cannot be verified. After this first
connection,
			> the AC through the CAPWAP protocol could
configure
			> the WTP with the needed CA CERT(s). However,
there=20
			> may be some WTPs that have no additional
persistent
			> storage for these CERTs.
			>
			> So, it appears to me that the following
changes
			> are required to CAPWAP-01:
			>   1) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be
selfsigned,=20
			>      and MUST have a common name of the ASCII
			>      of the MAC address (or other unique ID,
			>      such as serial number)
		=09
			While we may not think self-signing is a good
idea for our typical
			deployment models, I'm not sure we have to say
you MUST NOT do this, but
			I'll give this some more thought.
		=09
			>   2) The Join Request must be updated to
include
			>      the common name as a message element=20
		=09
			What is your objective with this requirement?
		=09
			>   3) specify that WTPs must continue even when
it
			>      believes its CERT or the AC's CERT is
outside
			>      the time window
		=09
			Charles addressed this.=20
		=09
			>   4) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new
message
			>      to install an updated CERT for the WTP.
			>   5) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new
message
			>      to install a CA CERT.
		=09
			I agree that we should discuss this, but I'm a
little leary of taking on=20
			the task of fully specifying every nuance of
cert use and mgmt.
			Remember, the ipsec group spun out a whole new
wg to handle this
			particular problem. It's complicated.
		=09
			What we're trying to do in the base protocol is
come up with minimal and=20
			sufficient guidelines to get people going. I
think cert mgmt and usage
			could be revisited in detail later, perhaps
under a new charter, but
			that we might want to consciously avoid getting
too bogged down in this=20
			for rev 1.
		=09
			Scott
		=09
=09
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBEC.730CB001
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2976" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D703231119-09102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I'm ok=20
with Dorothy's proposed recommendations.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Dorothy Stanley=20
  [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 03, =
2006=20
  3:28 PM<BR><B>To:</B> capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Capwap] Proposed =
Resolution=20
  to Issue 143: Specification for theusage of CERTS for CAPWAP/was CERT =
issues=20
  in CAPWAP-01<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote></SPAN>All,<BR><BR>Proposed =
resolutions for=20
  the several components of Issue 143 are included below.<BR>Issue 143 =
is also=20
  copied below.<BR><BR>Comments=20
  =
please.<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR><BR>Dorothy<BR>--------------------------------=
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-<SPAN=20
  class=3Dq><BR>1) It should be OK for the clock on a WTP to be =
"wacky",<BR>&nbsp;=20
  due to having no battery backed up clock, the battery<BR>&nbsp; going =
bad, the=20
  clock never set properly. On the other<BR>&nbsp; hand, an AC's clock =
should be=20
  set pretty accurately.<BR>&nbsp; I't not sure that the recommendations =
support=20
  this<BR>&nbsp; scenario. In general, want to support:<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
0) WTPs=20
  with no management interface (other than CAPWAP)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; 1) =
first=20
  time use of WTP after being manufactured<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; 2) continued =
use of=20
  WTP after long time operation<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; 3) continued use in =
short term=20
  deployments (such<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; as WiFi network used =
by a=20
  Circus that moves from<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; town to town =
(setting up=20
  and tearing down for<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; for each move), or =
for the=20
  WiFi network used<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; at conferences (such =
as the=20
  IETF).<BR><BR></SPAN>Proposed resolution: Adopt Charles' Clancy's=20
  recommendation to <BR>Replace the following text:<SPAN=20
  class=3Dq><BR><BR>&nbsp;Proper validation of certificates typically =
requires=20
  checking to<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; ensure the certificate has not yet =
expired.&nbsp;=20
  If devices have a real-<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; time clock, they SHOULD verify =
the=20
  certificate validity dates.&nbsp; If no<BR></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3Dq>&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  real-time clock is available, the device SHOULD attempt to=20
  determine<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; the current time using NTP prior to =
certificate=20
  validation.&nbsp; If<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; neither is available, devices =
SHOULD=20
  verify that the start validity<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; date of its peer's =
certificate=20
  is less than its own certificate's<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; expiration date, =
and its=20
  peer's expiration date is greater than its<BR></SPAN>&nbsp;&nbsp; own =
start=20
  date.&nbsp; Note that failure to check a certificate's temporal<SPAN=20
  class=3Dq><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; validity can make a device vulnerable to=20
  man-in-the-middle attacks<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; launched using compromised, =
expired=20
  certificates, and therefore<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; devices should make every =
effort=20
  to perform this validation.<BR><BR><BR>with<BR><BR><BR><SPAN>Proper =
validation=20
  of certificates typically requires checking to<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;ensure =
the=20
  certificate has not yet expired. &nbsp;If devices have a<BR>&nbsp;=20
  &nbsp;real-time clock, they SHOULD verify the certificate validity =
dates.=20
  <BR></SPAN>
  <DIV style=3D"DIRECTION: ltr">&nbsp; &nbsp;If no real-time clock is =
available,=20
  the device SHOULD make a<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;best-effort attempt to =
validate the=20
  certificate validity dates<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;through other means. =
&nbsp;Failure=20
  to check a certificate's temporal <BR></DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"DIRECTION: ltr"><SPAN>&nbsp; &nbsp;validity can make a =
device=20
  vulnerable to man-in-the-middle attacks<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;launched using =

  compromised, expired certificates, and therefore<BR>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;devices=20
  should make every effort to perform this validation.=20
  =
</SPAN></DIV></SPAN>-----------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------------------<SPAN=20
  class=3Dq><BR><BR>2) The new text suggests the common name in the=20
  format<BR>&nbsp; "<A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"mailto:01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET"=20
  target=3D_blank>01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET</A>" for WTPs. And=20
  implies<BR>&nbsp; that "<A=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://domain.net/" target=3D_blank>DOMAIN.NET</A>" is the =
"administrative=20
  domain".<BR>&nbsp; To me, "administrative domain" implies the =
user<BR>&nbsp;=20
  of the WTP. But, I believe that the WTP manufacturer<BR>&nbsp; must be =

  required to generate a CERT (and the WTP<BR>&nbsp; should come =
"preloaded"=20
  with the CERT), and the user<BR>&nbsp; of the WTP should not have to =
create=20
  the WTP CERT.<BR>&nbsp; (By the way, not sure how long the CERT should =

  be<BR>&nbsp; valid.) Thus, I see no need or desire for<BR>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;"@<A=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://domain.net/" target=3D_blank>DOMAIN.NET</A>" added to =
the common=20
  name, and suggest<BR>&nbsp; that it be removed. (Also, I think that we =

  have<BR>&nbsp; now a new requirement to be able via CAPWAP =
to<BR>&nbsp;=20
  replace the WTP's CERT with another, and may be<BR>&nbsp; to add CA =
CERTs for=20
  the AC's CERT chain. Also,<BR>&nbsp; what is the min depth that a WTP =
should=20
  support?)<BR><BR></SPAN>Proposed Resolution:<BR>Adopt David's =
suggestion to=20
  drop the @<A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://DOMAIN.NET" target=3D_blank>DOMAIN.NET</A> and<BR>add a =
sentence=20
  describing the storage requirements on the WTP and AC:<BR><BR>Change=20
  from:<SPAN class=3Dq><BR><BR>&nbsp; Another important part of =
certificate=20
  authentication is binding a<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; certificate to a =
particular=20
  device.&nbsp; There are many ways to<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; accomplish =
this.&nbsp;=20
  CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the certificate common<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
name (CN)=20
  as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX,<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
followed=20
  by an @ symbol, and then an administrative domain.&nbsp; =
For<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  example, <A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"mailto:01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET"=20
  target=3D_blank>01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET</A>.&nbsp; During=20
  authentication,<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; devices SHOULD ensure that the MAC =
matches the=20
  MAC specified in the<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; CAPWAP header, and that the =
domain in=20
  both the AC and WTP<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; certificates =
match.<BR><BR></SPAN>to <SPAN=20
  class=3Dq><BR>&nbsp; Another important part of certificate =
authentication is=20
  binding a<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; certificate to a particular device.&nbsp; =
There are=20
  many ways to<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; accomplish this.&nbsp; CAPWAP RECOMMENDS=20
  specifying the certificate common<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; name (CN) as the WTP =
or AC=20
  MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX,<BR></SPAN>&nbsp;&nbsp; for =
example,=20
  01:23:45:67:89:ab.&nbsp; During authentication,<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
devices SHOULD=20
  ensure that the MAC address matches the MAC<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
address&nbsp;=20
  specified in the CAPWAP header. If this mechanism is used, the ACs=20
  SHOULD<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; maintain list of all authorized WTP MAC =
addresses and=20
  the WTP SHOULD<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; save the AC credential or credential=20
  =
identifier.<BR><BR>------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------------------------------<SPAN=20
  class=3Dq><BR>3) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be =
selfsigned,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;=20
  and MUST have a common name of the ASCII<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; of the MAC =
address=20
  (or other unique ID,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; such as serial=20
  number)<BR><BR></SPAN>Proposed resolution: <BR>No change to the text =
regarding=20
  use of self-signed certs. While the use<BR>of self-signed certs may =
not<BR>be=20
  widespread,&nbsp; there isn't a compelling need to preclude =
their<BR>use in a=20
  CAPWAP application. <BR><BR>Change the text to require that WTP certs =
MUST=20
  have a<BR>common mane of the ASCII of the MAC =
address:<BR><BR>from:<BR><SPAN=20
  class=3Dq>CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the certificate =
common<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII=20
  HEX,<BR></SPAN>&nbsp;&nbsp; for example,=20
  01:23:45:67:89:ab.<BR><BR>to<BR><BR><SPAN class=3Dq>Specificaiton of =
the=20
  certificate common<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC =
address=20
  formatted as ASCII HEX,<BR></SPAN>&nbsp;&nbsp; for example, =
01:23:45:67:89:ab=20
  is REQUIRED for use with the CAPWAP=20
  =
protocol.<BR><BR>--------------------------------------------------------=
-------------------------------------------------<BR>&nbsp;=20
  4)&nbsp; The Join Request must be updated to include<SPAN =
class=3Dq><BR>&nbsp;=20
  &nbsp; the common name as a message element<BR><BR></SPAN>Proposed =
resolution:=20
  No change to the text. The join request<BR>currenly includes the =
BSSID. Also,=20
  since the JOIN occurs inside the DTLS tunnel, it =
is<BR>&nbsp;implicitly bound=20
  to the MAC (assuming certs were used for authentication, and <BR>this =
is N/A=20
  for preshared key=20
  =
authentication).<BR><BR>-------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------------------------------------<SPAN=20
  class=3Dq><BR>&nbsp; 5) specify that WTPs must continue even when =
it<BR>&nbsp;=20
  &nbsp; believes its CERT or the AC's CERT is outside<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
the time=20
  window<BR><BR></SPAN>Proposed resolution: No change to the =
document.<SPAN=20
  class=3Dq><BR>That seems equivalent to mandating WTPs never validate =
timestamps=20
  on any<BR>AC certs. &nbsp;What if the WTP has a real-time clock and =
actually=20
  CAN<BR>distinguish between good and bad=20
  =
certs?<BR></SPAN>--------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------------------------------<BR>.<BR><SPAN>&nbsp;6=
)=20
  Tthe CAPWAP protocol must have a new message<SPAN =
class=3Dq><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  &nbsp;&nbsp; to install an updated CERT for the =
WTP.<BR><BR></SPAN></SPAN>
  <DIV style=3D"DIRECTION: ltr">Proposed resolution: Defer for =
consideration in=20
  the next version of CAPWAP; <BR>the mechanisms for certificate =
distribution=20
  and management are<BR>quite complex re: certifcate formats, content,=20
  generation etc. <BR></DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"DIRECTION: =
ltr"><SPAN>--------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------<SPAN=20
  class=3Dq><BR><BR>&nbsp;7) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new=20
  message<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; to install a CA=20
  CERT.<BR><BR></SPAN></SPAN>Proposed resolution: Defer for =
consideration in the=20
  next version of CAPWAP; <BR>the mechanisms for certificate =
distribution and=20
  management are<BR>quite complex re: certifcate formats, content,=20
  =
management.<BR></DIV><BR>------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------<BR>Issue=20
  143:=20
  <DIV><SPAN class=3De id=3Dq_10e096825035f350_26><BR><BR><PRE>1) Cipher =
Suites for CERTS<BR>CAPWAP-01 has the following cipher suites =
specified:<BR>TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA,<BR>TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_3DES_ED=
E_CBC_SHA, and<BR>TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA<BR><BR>The above is a =
mistake, and the following should be used:
<BR><BR>TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA,<BR>TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_3DES_EDE_CB=
C_SHA, and<BR>TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA<BR><BR>2) CERT usage =
type:<BR>CAPWAP-01 has the folllwing about CERTS:<BR>  <A =
onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" =
href=3D"http://2.4.4.3" target=3D_blank>
2.4.4.3<BR></A>.  Certificate Usage<BR><BR>  Validation of the =
certificates by the AC and WTP is required so that<BR>  only an AC may =
perform the functions of an AC and that only a WTP may<BR>  perform the =
functions of a WTP.  This restriction of functions to the
<BR><BR>  AC or WTP requires that the certificates used by the AC MUST =
be<BR>  distinguishable from the certificate used by the WTP.  To =
accomplish<BR>  this differentiation, the x.509v3 certificates MUST =
include the<BR>  Extensions field [11] and MUST include the =
NetscapeComment [15]
<BR><BR>  extension.<BR><BR>  For an AC, the value of the =
NetscapeComment extension MUST be the<BR>  string "CAPWAP AC Device =
Certificate".  For a WTP, the value of the<BR>  NetscapeComment =
extension MUST be the string "CAPWAP WTP Device
<BR><BR>  Certificate".<BR><BR>  Part of the CAPWAP certificate =
validation process includes ensuring<BR>  that the proper string is =
included in the NetscapeComment extension,<BR>  and only allowing the =
CAPWAP session to be established if the
<BR><BR>  extension does not represent the same role as the device =
validating<BR>  the certificate.  For instance, a WTP MUST NOT accept a =
certificate<BR>  whose NetscapeComment field is set to "CAPWAP WTP =
Device<BR>
  Certificate".<BR><BR><BR>Using the "NetscapeComment extension" is not =
appropriate.<BR><BR>3) Selfsigned CERTs, CA CERTs, and validity =
checking<BR>I didn't see anything about whether or not the CERTs<BR>were =
selfsigned. And if not selfsigned, who would sign them.
<BR><BR>Also, how would a limited resource WTP verify an AC's =
cert?<BR>What if the WTP had no realtime clock (or a realtime =
clock<BR>with an unknown certainty)?<BR><BR>4) Common Name in a WTP's =
CERT<BR>I believe that the common name on the WTP's CERT
<BR><BR>must be the WTP's ID (which would be either the serial<BR>number =
or "base MAC address"), and should be provided<BR>as a parameter on the =
join.</PRE></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3De id=3Dq_10e096825035f350_27><BR>Two small, but =
important=20
  issues are:<BR>1) It should be OK for the clock on a WTP to be=20
  "wacky",<BR>&nbsp; due to having no battery backed up clock, the=20
  battery<BR>&nbsp; going bad, the clock never set properly. On the=20
  other<BR>&nbsp; hand, an AC's clock should be set pretty =
accurately.<BR>&nbsp;=20
  I't not sure that the recommendations support this<BR>&nbsp; scenario. =
In=20
  general, want to support:<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; 0) WTPs with no management=20
  interface (other than CAPWAP)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; 1) first time use of =
WTP after=20
  being manufactured<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; 2) continued use of WTP after long =
time=20
  operation<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; 3) continued use in short term deployments=20
  (such<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; as WiFi network used by a Circus =
that=20
  moves from<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; town to town (setting up and =
tearing=20
  down for<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; for each move), or for the =
WiFi=20
  network used<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; at conferences (such as =
the=20
  IETF).<BR>2) The new text suggests the common name in the =
format<BR>&nbsp; "<A=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"mailto:01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET"=20
  target=3D_blank>01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET</A>" for WTPs. And=20
  implies<BR>&nbsp; that "<A=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://domain.net/" target=3D_blank>DOMAIN.NET</A>" is the =
"administrative=20
  domain".<BR>&nbsp; To me, "administrative domain" implies the =
user<BR>&nbsp;=20
  of the WTP. But, I believe that the WTP manufacturer<BR>&nbsp; must be =

  required to generate a CERT (and the WTP<BR>&nbsp; should come =
"preloaded"=20
  with the CERT), and the user<BR>&nbsp; of the WTP should not have to =
create=20
  the WTP CERT.<BR>&nbsp; (By the way, not sure how long the CERT should =

  be<BR>&nbsp; valid.) Thus, I see no need or desire for<BR>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;"@<A=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://domain.net/" target=3D_blank>DOMAIN.NET</A>" added to =
the common=20
  name, and suggest<BR>&nbsp; that it be removed. (Also, I think that we =

  have<BR>&nbsp; now a new requirement to be able via CAPWAP =
to<BR>&nbsp;=20
  replace the WTP's CERT with another, and may be<BR>&nbsp; to add CA =
CERTs for=20
  the AC's CERT chain. Also,<BR>&nbsp; what is the min depth that a WTP =
should=20
  support?)<BR><BR></SPAN></DIV><SPAN class=3Dq>So, it appears to me =
that the=20
  following changes<BR>are required to CAPWAP-01:<BR>&nbsp;1) specify =
that WTP=20
  CERTs cannot be selfsigned,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; and MUST have a common =
name of=20
  the ASCII<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; of the MAC address (or other unique =
ID,<BR>&nbsp;=20
  &nbsp; such as serial number)<BR></SPAN><SPAN class=3Dq>&nbsp;2) The =
Join=20
  Request must be updated to include<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; the common name as =
a=20
  message element<BR></SPAN><SPAN class=3Dq>&nbsp;3) specify that WTPs =
must=20
  continue even when it<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; believes its CERT or the AC's =
CERT is=20
  outside<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; the time window<BR></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3Dq>&nbsp;4) the=20
  CAPWAP protocol must have a new message<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; to install an =
updated=20
  CERT for the WTP.<BR>&nbsp;5) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new=20
  message<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; to install a CA CERT.<BR><BR></SPAN>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3De id=3Dq_10e096825035f350_32>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 6/15/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Michael=20
  Montemurro</B> &lt;<A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com" target=3D_blank>=20
  montemurro.michael@gmail.com</A>&gt; wrote:</SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
    <DIV>All,</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>I've created issue <SPAN name=3D"st">143</SPAN> to deal with =
this=20
    problemm.<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 6/15/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Scott G=20
    Kelly</B> &lt;<A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"mailto:scott@hyperthought.com" =
target=3D_blank>scott@hyperthought.com=20
    </A>&gt; wrote:</SPAN>=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Hi=20
      David,<BR><BR>Like I said previously, I agree with pretty much =
everything=20
      Charles<BR>said, so I won't re-iterate his points, and will =
instead simply=20
      add a <BR>few comments below:<BR><BR>David T. Perkins =
wrote:<BR>&gt;=20
      HI,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Thank you for responding to my issues. It =
seems to me=20
      that<BR>&gt; we are not yet looking at the same problem. So let me =

      try<BR>&gt; again. <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; What I was trying to point out =
is that=20
      there are a few<BR>&gt; VERY common scenarios (use cases) where =
the clock=20
      on<BR>&gt; a WTP can be totally wrong. If a WTP is coded so =
that<BR>&gt;=20
      it will not continue and communicate with an AC when <BR>&gt; it =
thinks=20
      the AC's CERTs are outside the time window,<BR>&gt; (or it thinks =
that=20
      it's on CERTs are outside the time<BR>&gt; window) then you will =
have a=20
      useless device (a brick).<BR>&gt; In many (maybe most) =
deployments, it=20
      costs more to <BR>&gt; physically touch a WTP than the equipment =
cost of=20
      the WTP.<BR>&gt; At the Dallas IETF, there were APs that were=20
      "somewhere"<BR>&gt; in the ceiling not doing any useful work, but=20
      sending<BR>&gt; out beacons with their config'ed SSID because it =
was=20
      <BR>&gt; too expensive to find them, and take them down. =
It<BR>&gt; was=20
      more cost effective to just new new APs.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; For an =
AC, it's=20
      clock must be accurate,<BR>&gt; and it would be OK for it to not =
proceed=20
      if it believes <BR>&gt; its CERTs are outside their time window. =
But,=20
      the<BR>&gt; CAPWAP protocol should allow an AC to =
establish<BR>&gt; a=20
      session with a WTP that has a WACKY clock (and<BR>&gt; even a CERT =
that=20
      has expired). NOTE: the AC clock <BR>&gt; must be pretty accurate =
for=20
      management (such as<BR>&gt; logs) to be useful (or work). The =
CAPWAP=20
      protocol has<BR>&gt; support to set the WTP's clock. But it =
doesn't have=20
      support<BR>&gt; to update a CERT in a WTP. It seems like this is =
<BR>&gt;=20
      needed.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Assume the clocks are OK, now lets talk =
about=20
      WTP<BR>&gt; CERT validation by the AC. This wasn't addressed, =
but<BR>&gt;=20
      I believe that WTP CERTs MUST be signed by the<BR>&gt; WTP =
manufacturer,=20
      or one of the WELL KNOWN certification <BR>&gt; authorities. =
Adding the CA=20
      CERTs in an AC is done through<BR>&gt; means outside of CAPWAP =
(such as=20
      via the CLI<BR>&gt; on the AC). Thus, WTP CERTs MUST NOT be=20
      selfsigned.<BR>&gt; And, I believe that the WTPs CERTs should have =

      <BR>&gt; for the common name the ASCII of MAC address,<BR>&gt; or =
other=20
      unique ID of the WTP (and this must be provided<BR>&gt; in the =
Join=20
      Request message). I didn't understand<BR>&gt; in the previous =
text, nor in=20
      your message below <BR>&gt; why the common name would have a =
suffix=20
      of<BR>&gt; "@<A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"http://DOMAIN.NET" =
target=3D_blank>DOMAIN.NET</A>".<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
      Now lets talk about AC CERT validation by the WTP. <BR>&gt; The =
CERT for=20
      the AC can be created by the AC <BR>&gt; manufacturer, the user, =
or 3rd=20
      party. It could<BR>&gt; be selfsigned, or have a chain from the=20
      manufacturer<BR>&gt; or a WELL KNOWN CA. Given this, it will be=20
      difficult<BR>&gt; for a WTP to verify a AC CERT, at least the =
first=20
      <BR>&gt; time. This is just a "leap of faith" if the CERT<BR>&gt; =
cannot=20
      be verified. After this first connection,<BR>&gt; the AC through =
the=20
      CAPWAP protocol could configure<BR>&gt; the WTP with the needed CA =

      CERT(s). However, there <BR>&gt; may be some WTPs that have no =
additional=20
      persistent<BR>&gt; storage for these CERTs.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; So, it =
appears=20
      to me that the following changes<BR>&gt; are required to=20
      CAPWAP-01:<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be =

      selfsigned, <BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;and MUST =
have a=20
      common name of the =
ASCII<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;of the=20
      MAC address (or other unique=20
      ID,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;such as serial=20
      number)<BR><BR>While we may not think self-signing is a good idea =
for our=20
      typical<BR>deployment models, I'm not sure we have to say you MUST =
NOT do=20
      this, but<BR>I'll give this some more =
thought.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2)=20
      The Join Request must be updated to=20
      include<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the common name =
as a=20
      message element <BR><BR>What is your objective with this=20
      requirement?<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3) specify that WTPs must =
continue=20
      even when it<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;believes =
its CERT=20
      or the AC's CERT is =
outside<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the=20
      time window<BR><BR>Charles addressed this. =
<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4) the=20
      CAPWAP protocol must have a new=20
      message<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;to install an =
updated=20
      CERT for the WTP.<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5) the CAPWAP protocol must =
have a=20
      new message<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;to install =
a CA=20
      CERT.<BR><BR>I agree that we should discuss this, but I'm a little =
leary=20
      of taking on <BR>the task of fully specifying every nuance of cert =
use and=20
      mgmt.<BR>Remember, the ipsec group spun out a whole new wg to =
handle=20
      this<BR>particular problem. It's complicated.<BR><BR>What we're =
trying to=20
      do in the base protocol is come up with minimal and <BR>sufficient =

      guidelines to get people going. I think cert mgmt and =
usage<BR>could be=20
      revisited in detail later, perhaps under a new charter, =
but<BR>that we=20
      might want to consciously avoid getting too bogged down in this =
<BR>for=20
      rev=20
      =
1.<BR><BR>Scott<BR><BR>__________________________________________________=
_______________<BR>To=20
      unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please =
visit:<BR><A=20
      onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap"=20
      =
target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</A><BR>=
<BR>Archives:=20
      <A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap"=20
      target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20
    =
</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></SPAN></DIV><BR>_________________________=
________________________________________<BR>To=20
    unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<BR><A =

    onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap"=20
    =
target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</A><BR>=
<BR>Archives:=20
    <A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap"=20
    target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20
  =
</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTM=
L>

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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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Hi Saravanan,

Saravanan Govindan wrote:

>Hi Scott,
>
>I am not sure the suggestion below affects any security model. As long as 
>there is an established security framework between the AC and WTP, the 
>suggested approach remains transparent.

When you consider the 'security model', you have to consider all assumptions that went into the cryptographic protocol design.  Also, you need to carefully consider whether our particular deployment scenarios introduce the need for additional interpretation, since the deployment model 802.11 security has been designed around does not include splitting AP functions in two, with a potentially hostile hop in between. That is what we are doing with CAPWAP. 

I won't waste time here trying to speculate (or argue) about what clauses might have been worded differently had the 802.11i group been considering CAPWAP-like scenarios. Instead, let me point out just one consequence of passing the KCK to the WTP: the WTP could undetectably modify the content of message 3 of the 4-way handshake.   This is bad.

Without spending a lot of time thinking about why this might be a problem, we can immediately see that the WTP would be in a position to modify (downgrade) the security capabilities info it sends out, and then modify the IE in message 3 of the 4-way to match.

Why would a WTP want to do this? I'm not sure, but we have to keep in mind that we are talking about interoperability here, so the WTP does not necessarily come from the same place as the AC. But the real point is that according to the security model upon which RSN security is based, _this simply should not be possible_ And I should add, I turned this up after only a cursory analysis - there may be other more significant issues.

Arguably, the same could be said for the KeyRSC=0 problem, so we are in the difficult position of having to weigh these two against one another in choosing a solution. 

Having spent more than a few hours mulling this over, I think we are safest if we choose a solution that minimizes protocol complexity and exposure simultaneously. 

Now, recalling the following for the KeyRSC=0 problem:

- the STA's briefly inaccurate view of the RSC (and it's resulting susceptibility to mcast/bcast replays) will be corrected upon receipt of the first valid mcast/bcast message from the WTP

- that on "normal" networks we can expect more than a few of these per second (so the exposure is typically sub-second)

- that an attempt to replay old frames could likely be detected

- that the attacker would either be blindly replaying (outsider attack) and just *hoping* something goes wrong

- or that the attacker is an insider who knows the GTK (and could therefore manufacture whatever packets he desires *within* the legal window anyway

it seems to me that the window of exposre here is very small indeed. Definitely not worth potentially breaking the RSN security model over.

I think that if the WTP, as part of its normal statistics messaging, transmitted per ESSID bcast/mcast counts to the AC, this represents a nice compromise. No new messages, no out of the ordinary processing,  and the AC knows which GTK the stats go with, so it can narrow the window of exposure according to how current its stats are vs the xmit rate with the GTK.

Scott

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From: "Scott G. Kelly" <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>
To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>,
	"Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" <ssmitha@cisco.com>, Capwap@frascone.com
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Hi Pat,

Pat Calhoun wrote:
>hmmm.... this seems to be a bug. First of all, why would the WTP have to
>wait prior to establishing the DTLS session? Why is this simply not
>automatic?

I recall wondering about this during the DTLS text integration. If I recall correctly, this was adapted from the original JOIN language, and I thought maybe there was a delay introduced in case the WTP received more discovery responses.  I think the language is confusing, though, and needs work either way.

Seems like the behavior varies depending on the discovery method. For a broadcast method, it seems reasonable that a WTP should wait some reasonable period to probabalistically ensure that it has received whatever discovery responses it is going to receive before it acts. Otherwise, you could have kid-in-a-candy-store behavior (I'll take that one! No -- that one! Wait... I want THAT one!)  For a directed discover, obviously the WTP can act upon receiving a response.

Scott


> 
>
>Pat Calhoun
>CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
>Cisco Systems
>
> 
>
>
>________________________________
>
>	From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) 
>	Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 7:31 PM
>	To: Capwap@frascone.com
>	Subject: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question
>	
>	
>	
>	All,
>	 
>	Idle to Discovery transition talks about Discovery Interval
>timer:
>	 
>	 Idle to Discovery (a): This transition occurs once device
>	      initialization is complete.
>	 
>	      WTP: The WTP enters the Discovery state prior to
>transmitting the
>	         first Discovery Request message (see Section 5.1).
>Upon
>	         entering this state, the WTP sets the DiscoveryInterval
>timer
>	         (see Section 4.5).  The WTP resets the DiscoveryCount
>counter
>	         to zero (0) (see Section 4.6).  The WTP also clears all
>	         information from ACs it may have received during a
>previous
>	         Discovery phase.
>	
>	 
>	But DiscoveryInterval timer is described as:
>	 
>	
>	4.5.1.  DiscoveryInterval
>	 
>	   The minimum time, in seconds, that a WTP MUST wait after
>receiving a
>	   Discovery Response, before initiating a DTLS handshake.
>	 
>	Should Idle to Discovery actually be based on
>MaxDiscoveryInterval timer? Also, there is mention of DiscoveryInterval
>timer even in transition from Discovery to Discovery.
>	 
>	4.5.6.  MaxDiscoveryInterval
>	 
>	   The maximum time allowed between sending discovery requests
>from the
>	   interface, in seconds.  Must be no less than 2 seconds and no
>greater
>	   than 180 seconds.
>	 
>	   Default: 20 seconds.
>	 
>	Thanks
>	Smitha
>	
>	
>

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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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From: "Saravanan Govindan" <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>
To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>,
	"Cheng Hong" <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>,
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Pat,

The WTP does not need any additional key information since the issue at
hand considers the WTP to perform crypto functions. I do not think the
proposal introduces threats.

Also, given CAPWAP development is still in progress, I think we should
not preclude any item because it involves change - the protocol is not
yet complete. 

Saravanan





-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 1:39 AM
To: Saravanan Govindan; Cheng Hong; Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman
Cc: capwap
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations

This would require the AC to send additional keying information to the
WTP, since message three needs to be authenticated. So I disagree with
this proposal. The change is much more sinificant than simply leaving
the field zero.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Saravanan Govindan [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com] 
> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 12:08 AM
> To: Cheng Hong; Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman
> Cc: capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> Considerations
> 
> Hi Cheng Hong, Scott,
> 
> I share your concerns for setting the KeyRSC to 0. 
> 
> In my opinion, it is clear that the protocol is "broken" in 
> this case and needs to be fixed. 
> 
> My suggestion is to have the KeyRSC field be updated by the 
> WTP. So the AC could send Message-3 of the 4-way handshake to 
> the WTP with an empty KeyRSC field. The WTP could then 
> correctly update the field, compute the KeyMIC, update 
> Message-3 and then forward it to the STA. 
> 
> Of course, this requires a CAPWAP message from the AC and WTP 
> to exchange the incomplete Message-3. I think this is an 
> acceptable addition because it maintains the integrity of 
> 802.11i exchanges and provides a complete fix to the problem. 
> 
> Saravanan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:21 PM
> To: Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman
> Cc: capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> Considerations
> 
> Hi Scott,
> 
> Some comments below:
> 
> > After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring 
> myself to agree 
> > with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think always using an RSC 
> > value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that we've acknowledged we are 
> > introducing a vulnerability here (however slight), telling 
> > implementors they SHOULD do this just doesn't sit right with me.
> > 
> > An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do better than 
> > always setting this to zero, and explicitly recommending 
> that people 
> > nail this window open just rubs me the wrong way. At least, 
> let's hold 
> > off on this decision until we've clearly defined what statistics we 
> > expect to be available. Seems like if we're going to tell 
> implementors 
> > what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well considered 
> > advice.
> 
> I absolutely agree with you on this point. 
> 
> What I was trying to state in my previous emails was:
> - I would against setting a static value for the KeyRSC as a 
> solution to this issue. 
> - However if the WG decided to go for a static value, the 
> draft should clearly point out that NOT all static value 
> could work (value other than zero may be a problem for 
> interoperability).
> - And the draft needs to clearly point out what is the danger 
> of setting a static KeyRSC value in the security 
> consideration section.
> - Also, the draft should not prohibit other implementation 
> for sync the KeyRSC value between WTP and AC (the CAPWAP 
> standard should not dictate such implementation incompatible). 
> 
> If there is a alternative solution than setting a static 
> KeyRSC value to narrow the window, I would vote for it.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Cheng Hong
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:26 AM
> > To: Margaret Wasserman
> > Cc: capwap
> > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> > Considerations
> > 
> > Hi Margaret,
> > 
> > Comments inline below...
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > >From: Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com>
> > >Sent: Oct 6, 2006 9:39 AM
> > >To: Scott G Kelly <scott@hyperthought.com>
> > >Cc: Cheng Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>, capwap 
> > ><capwap@frascone.com>
> > >Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > Considerations
> > >
> > >
> > >While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal 
> > >implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to the 
> > >protocol portion of the document (as well as the security
> > >considerations) to explain how this is handled.  How about 
> something
> > >like:
> > >
> > >The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of 
> the 4-way 
> > >802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more 
> optimal RSC 
> > >value to use.  Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC
> > value are
> > >outside the scope of this specification.
> > >
> > >I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope that 
> > >implementors figure this out.
> > >
> > >Margaret
> > 
> > After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring 
> myself to agree 
> > with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think always using an RSC 
> > value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that we've acknowledged we are 
> > introducing a vulnerability here (however slight), telling 
> > implementors they SHOULD do this just doesn't sit right with me.
> > 
> > An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do better than 
> > always setting this to zero, and explicitly recommending 
> that people 
> > nail this window open just rubs me the wrong way. At least, 
> let's hold 
> > off on this decision until we've clearly defined what statistics we 
> > expect to be available. Seems like if we're going to tell 
> implementors 
> > what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well considered 
> > advice.
> > 
> > Scott
> > 
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
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> > 
> > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> > 
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Cc: Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com>,
	capwap <capwap@frascone.com>,
	Cheng Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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Saravanan,

Your proposal requires the WTP to know the KCK to compute the MIC.

In both Split MAC and Local MAC, the 4-way handshake is executed between 
the AC and STA (hence the whole problem we're talking about).  After the 
handshake is complete, the PTK is transmitted to the WTP.  Currently 
there is no way for the WTP to know the KCK in any of the possible usage 
scenarios.

Key derivation process:

EAP MSK = 11i PMK  (transported from AAA server to AC after successful 
EAP authentication)

First two messages of 4-way handshake occurs between AC and STA and both 
the AC and STA now know SNonce, ANonce, SAddr, AAddr.

(KEK, KCK, PTK) = TK = KDF(PMK, SNonce, ANonce, SAddr, AAddr)

AC and STA now know KEK, KCK, PTK.

AC and STA use KCK to properly MIC messages 3 and 4 of handshake

If 11i is terminated at the WTP, the AC then transports the PTK to WTP.

At no point, and in no scenario, does the KCK currently get transported 
to the WTP.  An additional message would have to be inserted between 
messages 2 and 3 of the 4-way handshake to inform the WTP of the KCK.

-- 
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy

Saravanan Govindan wrote:
> Pat,
> 
> The WTP does not need any additional key information since the issue at
> hand considers the WTP to perform crypto functions. I do not think the
> proposal introduces threats.
> 
> Also, given CAPWAP development is still in progress, I think we should
> not preclude any item because it involves change - the protocol is not
> yet complete. 
> 
> Saravanan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 1:39 AM
> To: Saravanan Govindan; Cheng Hong; Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman
> Cc: capwap
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
> 
> This would require the AC to send additional keying information to the
> WTP, since message three needs to be authenticated. So I disagree with
> this proposal. The change is much more sinificant than simply leaving
> the field zero.
> 
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
> 
>  
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Saravanan Govindan [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com] 
>> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 12:08 AM
>> To: Cheng Hong; Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman
>> Cc: capwap
>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
>> Considerations
>>
>> Hi Cheng Hong, Scott,
>>
>> I share your concerns for setting the KeyRSC to 0. 
>>
>> In my opinion, it is clear that the protocol is "broken" in 
>> this case and needs to be fixed. 
>>
>> My suggestion is to have the KeyRSC field be updated by the 
>> WTP. So the AC could send Message-3 of the 4-way handshake to 
>> the WTP with an empty KeyRSC field. The WTP could then 
>> correctly update the field, compute the KeyMIC, update 
>> Message-3 and then forward it to the STA. 
>>
>> Of course, this requires a CAPWAP message from the AC and WTP 
>> to exchange the incomplete Message-3. I think this is an 
>> acceptable addition because it maintains the integrity of 
>> 802.11i exchanges and provides a complete fix to the problem. 
>>
>> Saravanan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
>> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:21 PM
>> To: Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman
>> Cc: capwap
>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
>> Considerations
>>
>> Hi Scott,
>>
>> Some comments below:
>>
>>> After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring 
>> myself to agree 
>>> with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think always using an RSC 
>>> value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that we've acknowledged we are 
>>> introducing a vulnerability here (however slight), telling 
>>> implementors they SHOULD do this just doesn't sit right with me.
>>>
>>> An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do better than 
>>> always setting this to zero, and explicitly recommending 
>> that people 
>>> nail this window open just rubs me the wrong way. At least, 
>> let's hold 
>>> off on this decision until we've clearly defined what statistics we 
>>> expect to be available. Seems like if we're going to tell 
>> implementors 
>>> what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well considered 
>>> advice.
>> I absolutely agree with you on this point. 
>>
>> What I was trying to state in my previous emails was:
>> - I would against setting a static value for the KeyRSC as a 
>> solution to this issue. 
>> - However if the WG decided to go for a static value, the 
>> draft should clearly point out that NOT all static value 
>> could work (value other than zero may be a problem for 
>> interoperability).
>> - And the draft needs to clearly point out what is the danger 
>> of setting a static KeyRSC value in the security 
>> consideration section.
>> - Also, the draft should not prohibit other implementation 
>> for sync the KeyRSC value between WTP and AC (the CAPWAP 
>> standard should not dictate such implementation incompatible). 
>>
>> If there is a alternative solution than setting a static 
>> KeyRSC value to narrow the window, I would vote for it.
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> Cheng Hong
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com]
>>> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:26 AM
>>> To: Margaret Wasserman
>>> Cc: capwap
>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
>>> Considerations
>>>
>>> Hi Margaret,
>>>
>>> Comments inline below...
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com>
>>>> Sent: Oct 6, 2006 9:39 AM
>>>> To: Scott G Kelly <scott@hyperthought.com>
>>>> Cc: Cheng Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>, capwap 
>>>> <capwap@frascone.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
>>> Considerations
>>>>
>>>> While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal 
>>>> implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to the 
>>>> protocol portion of the document (as well as the security
>>>> considerations) to explain how this is handled.  How about 
>> something
>>>> like:
>>>>
>>>> The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of 
>> the 4-way 
>>>> 802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more 
>> optimal RSC 
>>>> value to use.  Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC
>>> value are
>>>> outside the scope of this specification.
>>>>
>>>> I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope that 
>>>> implementors figure this out.
>>>>
>>>> Margaret
>>> After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring 
>> myself to agree 
>>> with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think always using an RSC 
>>> value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that we've acknowledged we are 
>>> introducing a vulnerability here (however slight), telling 
>>> implementors they SHOULD do this just doesn't sit right with me.
>>>
>>> An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do better than 
>>> always setting this to zero, and explicitly recommending 
>> that people 
>>> nail this window open just rubs me the wrong way. At least, 
>> let's hold 
>>> off on this decision until we've clearly defined what statistics we 
>>> expect to be available. Seems like if we're going to tell 
>> implementors 
>>> what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well considered 
>>> advice.
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
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>>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to
	Issue214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames
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	"Michael Montemurro" <montemurro.michael@gmail.com>
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Hi Pat,
=20
You are right. So, it seems that 802.1X frame may not  even always have
higher priority over wireless link.
=20
Another concern I have is about the CAPWAP QoS preservation. It seems
that for the HCCA case, CAPWAP may not be able to guarantee the same QoS
over the wired section for the STA.=20
=20
cheers
=20
Cheng Hong
=20
=20
=20


  _____ =20

From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 1:42 AM
To: Cheng Hong; Michael Montemurro
Cc: capwap
Subject: RE: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to
Issue214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames


Even in the case of EDCA, there is no guarantees that the STA can send
an 802.1X frame with a high priority UP field. This is especially true
if the WTP requires authorization prior to making use of the QoS class.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


  _____ =20

From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:20 PM
To: Michael Montemurro
Cc: capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to
Issue214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames


Hi Mike,
=20
In the HCCA case, the TID value is in the range of 8 to 15, and
according to clause 6.1.1.1.1 point b:
=20
"b) QoS subtypes, in which case the QAP shall infer the UP value from
the TID in the QoS Control field
directly for TID values between 0 and 7. For TID values between 8 and
15, the QAP shall extract the
UP value in the UP subfield of the TS Info field in the associated TSPEC
or from the UP field in the
associated TCLAS (traffic classification) element, as applicable."
=20
It seems that the WTP needs to do much more to obtain the actual UP
value. In case the TSPEC or TCLAS elemets are located at the AC, how
would the WTP get the UP value in the HCCA case?
=20
Or is there any place that prevents sending EAPOL frames using HCCA? If
that is the case, it is not a problem. But, then again, all the data
traffic sent using HCCA will have difficulty to obtain the correct
priority in CAPWAP delivery.
=20
cheers
=20
Cheng Hong
=20
=20
=20


  _____ =20

From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 2:23 AM
To: Cheng Hong
Cc: capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue
214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames


Cheng,
=20
In the HCCA case, the TID case should work as well. I don't see why it
wouldn't.
=20
Cheers,
=20
Mike

=20
On 9/26/06, Cheng Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com> wrote:=20

Hi Mike,=20
=20
It seems OK to use TID in the EDCA case. If the HCCA is used, would the
TID still be meaningful in mapping the priority? (Haven't check the
802.11 standards in detail).=20
=20
cheers
=20
Cheng Hong=20


  _____ =20

From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com
<mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com> ]=20
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 12:24 AM=20

To: Cheng Hong
Cc: zhaoyujin 31390; capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue
214 -Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames


=20

Cheng,
=20
Thanks for you input.
=20
Also, that's a good question. In my opinion, the CAPWAP priority should
be based on the TID(UP). Which means yes, the WTP would need to read
into the QoS control field.
=20
Cheers,
=20
Mike
=20
On 9/25/06, Cheng Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com
<mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com> > wrote:=20

Hi Mike,
=20
In this case, I tend to agree with the other Michael on the first point.

=20
However, on the mapping 802.11e priority back to CAPWAP priority, I am
not really sure how that is done. Is it based on 802.11e AC or TID (UP)?
For later case, does it mean the WTP need to read into the QoS Control
Field?=20
=20
cheers
=20
Cheng Hong
=20
=20

  _____ =20

From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com
<mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com> ]=20
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:17 AM
To: Cheng Hong
Cc: zhaoyujin 31390; capwap=20

Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue
214 -Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames


=20

Cheng Hong,
=20
In the CAPWAP draft, both wireless data and management frames are
treated as CAPWAP data frames. Given that, all CAPWAP data traffic would
need to go to the same logical instance of the AC.
=20
Cheers,
=20
Mike


=20
On 9/24/06, Cheng Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com
<mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com> > wrote:=20

Hi Michael & Michael,
=20
Sorry if the issue has already been discussed before. Just thinking if
the WTP does not differentiate 802.1X frames from normal data frames,
would it be possible that the 802.1X frames being forwarded to a
different AC instance than the one processing the control/management
frames? (in case different ACs are used to process the control and data
channel) Is this acceptable?
=20
cheers
=20
Cheng Hong
=20
=20
=20


  _____ =20

From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:18 AM
To: zhaoyujin 31390
Cc: capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue
214 -Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames=20

=20

Michael,
=20
Thanks. Is anybody else opinionated on this feature.=20
=20
Cheers,
=20
Mike

=20
On 9/23/06, zhaoyujin 31390 <zhaoyujin@huawei.com
<mailto:zhaoyujin@huawei.com> > wrote:=20

Firstly, I have some doubt one this suggestion.

1. If CAPWAP difines like this, AP device must decode the payload frames
of 802.11 frames.
2. Another problem, the 802.1x priority should be implement by 802.11e.
When station sends 802.11 data frames, it can set 802.11e priority. AP
should transfer 802.11e to actual CAPWAP packet priority.

So that I think CAPWAP does not need consider the priority of 802.11
data frames payload.=20

Thanks
Michael



>Practically speaking, IEEE 802.1X frames should be transmitted at the
same priority as >IEEE 802.11 Management frames.
>
>I will update Section 11.5, rename Quality of Service for IEEE 802.11
Control Messages >to "Quality
>of Service for IEEE 802.11 control messages and IEEE 802.1X EAPoL
frames" and add text to >indicate that IEEE 802.1X frames are sent at a
higher priority.
>=20
>Cheers,
>
>Mike


This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from
HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is
listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way
(including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure,
reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended
recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please
notify the sender by phone or email=20
immediately and delete it!

=20

Practically speaking, IEEE 802.1X frames should be transmitted at the
same priority as IEEE 802.11 Management frames.=20
=20
I will update Section 11.5, rename Quality of Service for IEEE 802.11
Control Messages to "Quality
of Service for IEEE 802.11 control messages and IEEE 802.1X EAPoL
frames" and add text to indicate that IEEE 802.1X frames are sent at a
higher priority.
=20
Cheers,
=20
Mike

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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D655550302-10102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Hi=20
Pat,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D655550302-10102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D655550302-10102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>You=20
are right. So, it seems that 802.1X frame may not&nbsp; even always have =
higher=20
priority over wireless link.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D655550302-10102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D655550302-10102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Another concern I have is about the CAPWAP QoS preservation. It =
seems=20
that for the HCCA case, CAPWAP may not be able to guarantee the same QoS =
over=20
the wired section for the STA. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D655550302-10102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D655550302-10102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D655550302-10102006></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D655550302-10102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Cheng=20
Hong</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D655550302-10102006>&nbsp;</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D655550302-10102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D655550302-10102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)=20
  [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 10, 2006 =
1:42=20
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> Cheng Hong; Michael Montemurro<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed =
resolution=20
  to Issue214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D344502516-09102006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Even=20
  in the case of EDCA, there is no guarantees that the STA can send an =
802.1X=20
  frame with a high priority UP field. This is especially true if the =
WTP=20
  requires authorization prior to making use of the QoS=20
  class.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
  <P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
  Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft>
    <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
    <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Cheng Hong=20
    [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, =
September=20
    27, 2006 6:20 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Michael Montemurro<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
    capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed=20
    resolution to Issue214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X=20
    frames<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D774221101-28092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Hi=20
    Mike,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
    class=3D774221101-28092006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D774221101-28092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>In=20
    the HCCA case, the TID value is in the range of 8 to 15, and =
according to=20
    clause 6.1.1.1.1 point b:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
    class=3D774221101-28092006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><SPAN=20
    class=3D774221101-28092006><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT =
size=3D2><FONT=20
    color=3D#0000ff><SPAN class=3D774221101-28092006>"</SPAN>b) QoS =
subtypes, in=20
    which case the QAP shall infer the UP value from the TID in the QoS =
Control=20
    field</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>directly=20
    for TID values between 0 and 7. For TID values between 8 and 15, the =
QAP=20
    shall extract the</FONT><FONT face=3DArial></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>UP value=20
    in the UP subfield of the TS Info field in the associated TSPEC or =
from the=20
    UP field in the</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT =
size=3D2><FONT=20
    color=3D#0000ff>associated TCLAS (traffic classification) element, =
as=20
    applicable.<SPAN=20
class=3D774221101-28092006>"</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
    face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
    =
class=3D774221101-28092006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs=
p;</DIV>
    <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D774221101-28092006>It seems that the WTP needs to do much =
more to=20
    obtain the actual UP value. In case the TSPEC or TCLAS elemets are =
located=20
    at the AC, how would the WTP get the UP value in the HCCA=20
    case?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
    face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
    =
class=3D774221101-28092006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs=
p;</DIV>
    <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
    face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D774221101-28092006>Or is there any place that prevents =
sending EAPOL=20
    frames using HCCA? If that is the case, it is not a problem. But, =
then=20
    again, all the data traffic sent using HCCA will have difficulty to =
obtain=20
    the correct priority in CAPWAP=20
    delivery.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
    face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
    =
class=3D774221101-28092006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs=
p;</DIV>
    <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D774221101-28092006>cheers</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
    face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
    =
class=3D774221101-28092006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs=
p;</DIV>
    <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D774221101-28092006>Cheng Hong</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
    face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
    =
class=3D774221101-28092006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbs=
p;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
    color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D774221101-28092006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft>
      <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
      <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Michael Montemurro=20
      [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, =
September=20
      28, 2006 2:23 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Cheng Hong<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
      capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed =

      resolution to Issue 214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X=20
      frames<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
      <DIV></DIV>
      <DIV>Cheng,</DIV>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>In the HCCA case, the TID case should work as well. I don't =
see why=20
      it wouldn't.</DIV>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>Mike<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 9/26/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Cheng=20
      Hong</B> &lt;<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com">Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com</=
A>&gt;=20
      wrote:</SPAN>=20
      <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
      style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
        <DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Hi Mike,=20
        </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
        size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>It seems =
OK to use TID=20
        in the EDCA case. If the HCCA is used, would the TID still be =
meaningful=20
        in mapping the priority? (Haven't check the 802.11 standards in =
detail).=20
        </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
        size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
        size=3D2>cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
        size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Cheng =
Hong=20
        </FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
        <BLOCKQUOTE=20
        style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
#0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
          <DIV lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
          <HR>
          <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN class=3Dq><B>From:</B> =
Michael Montemurro=20
          [mailto:<A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
          href=3D"mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com"=20
          target=3D_blank>montemurro.michael@gmail.com </A>]=20
          <BR></SPAN><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 27, 2006 12:24 AM =

          <DIV><SPAN class=3De id=3Dq_10ded02f9471b143_3><BR><B>To:</B> =
Cheng=20
          Hong<BR><B>Cc:</B> zhaoyujin 31390; capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
Re:=20
          [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue 214=20
          -Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X=20
          frames<BR></SPAN></DIV></FONT><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3De id=3Dq_10ded02f9471b143_5>
          <DIV></DIV>
          <DIV>Cheng,</DIV>
          <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV>Thanks for you input.</DIV>
          <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV>Also, that's a good question. In my opinion, the CAPWAP =
priority=20
          should be based on the TID(UP).&nbsp;Which means yes, the WTP =
would=20
          need to read into the QoS control field.</DIV>
          <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
          <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV>Mike<BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 9/25/06, <B=20
          class=3Dgmail_sendername>Cheng Hong</B> &lt;<A=20
          onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
          href=3D"mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com"=20
          target=3D_blank>Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com </A>&gt; =
wrote:</SPAN>=20
          <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
          style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
            <DIV>
            <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Hi=20
            Mike,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
            <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
            size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>In =
this case, I=20
            tend to agree with the other Michael on the first point.=20
            </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
            <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
            size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>However, on the=20
            mapping 802.11e&nbsp;priority back to CAPWAP priority, I am =
not=20
            really sure how that is done. Is it based on 802.11e AC or =
TID (UP)?=20
            For later case, does it mean the WTP need to read into the =
QoS=20
            Control Field? </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
            <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
            size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
            size=3D2>cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
            <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
            size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Cheng =

            Hong</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
            <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
            size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
            size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <BLOCKQUOTE=20
            style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
#0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
              <DIV lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
              <HR>
              <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN><B>From:</B> Michael =
Montemurro=20
              [mailto:<A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
              href=3D"mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com"=20
              target=3D_blank>montemurro.michael@gmail.com </A>]=20
              <BR></SPAN><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:17=20
              AM<BR><B>To:</B> Cheng Hong<BR><B>Cc:</B> zhaoyujin 31390; =
capwap=20
              <DIV><SPAN><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Capwap] This is not =
need.:=20
              Proposed resolution to Issue 214 -Prioritization of IEEE =
802.1X=20
              frames<BR></SPAN></DIV></FONT><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
              <DIV><SPAN>
              <DIV></DIV>
              <DIV>Cheng Hong,</DIV>
              <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
              <DIV>In the CAPWAP draft, both wireless data and =
management frames=20
              are treated as CAPWAP data frames.&nbsp;Given that,=20
              all&nbsp;CAPWAP data traffic would need to go to the same =
logical=20
              instance of the AC.</DIV>
              <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
              <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
              <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
              <DIV>Mike</DIV>
              <DIV><BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
              <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 9/24/06, <B=20
              class=3Dgmail_sendername>Cheng Hong</B> &lt;<A=20
              onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
              href=3D"mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com"=20
              target=3D_blank>Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com </A>&gt; =
wrote:</SPAN>=20
              <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
              style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
                <DIV>
                <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Hi Michael=20
                &amp; Michael,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
                <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
                size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
                <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Sorry if the=20
                issue has already been discussed before. Just thinking =
if the=20
                WTP does not differentiate 802.1X frames from normal =
data=20
                frames, would it be possible that the 802.1X frames =
being=20
                forwarded to a different AC instance than the one =
processing the=20
                control/management frames? (in case different ACs are =
used to=20
                process the control and data channel) Is this=20
                acceptable?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
                <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
                size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
                <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
                size=3D2>cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
                <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
                size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
                <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Cheng=20
                Hong</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
                <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
                size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
                <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
                size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
                <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
                size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
                <BLOCKQUOTE=20
                style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
                  <DIV lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
                  <HR>
                  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Michael =
Montemurro=20
                  [mailto:<A=20
                  onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
                  href=3D"mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com"=20
                  target=3D_blank>montemurro.michael@gmail.com</A>]=20
                  <BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:18=20
                  AM<BR><B>To:</B> zhaoyujin 31390<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
                  capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Capwap] This is not =
need.:=20
                  Proposed resolution to Issue 214 -Prioritization of =
IEEE=20
                  802.1X frames <BR></FONT><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
                  <DIV><SPAN>
                  <DIV></DIV>
                  <DIV>Michael,</DIV>
                  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
                  <DIV>Thanks. Is anybody else opinionated on this =
feature.=20
                  </DIV>
                  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
                  <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
                  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
                  <DIV>Mike<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
                  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 9/23/06, <B=20
                  class=3Dgmail_sendername>zhaoyujin 31390</B> &lt;<A=20
                  onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
                  href=3D"mailto:zhaoyujin@huawei.com"=20
                  target=3D_blank>zhaoyujin@huawei.com </A>&gt; =
wrote:</SPAN>=20
                  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
                  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
                    <DIV style=3D"DIRECTION: ltr">Firstly, I have some =
doubt one=20
                    this suggestion.<BR><BR>1. If CAPWAP difines like =
this, AP=20
                    device must decode the payload frames of 802.11=20
                    frames.<BR>2. Another problem, the 802.1x priority =
should be=20
                    implement by 802.11e. When station sends 802.11 data =
frames,=20
                    it can set 802.11e priority. AP should transfer =
802.11e to=20
                    actual CAPWAP packet priority.<BR><BR>So that I =
think CAPWAP=20
                    does not need consider the priority of 802.11 data =
frames=20
                    payload.=20
                    =
<BR><BR>Thanks<BR>Michael<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt;Practically=20
                    speaking, IEEE 802.1X frames should be transmitted =
at the=20
                    same priority as &gt;IEEE 802.11 Management=20
                    frames.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I will update Section 11.5, =
rename=20
                    Quality of Service for IEEE 802.11 Control Messages =
&gt;to=20
                    "Quality<BR>&gt;of Service for IEEE 802.11 control =
messages=20
                    and IEEE 802.1X EAPoL frames" and add text to =
&gt;indicate=20
                    that IEEE 802.1X frames are sent at a higher=20
                    priority.<BR>&gt;=20
                    <BR>&gt;Cheers,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Mike<BR><BR><BR>This =
e-mail=20
                    and attachments contain confidential information =
from=20
                    HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or =
entity=20
                    whose address is listed above. Any use of the =
information=20
                    contained herein in any way (including, but not =
limited to,=20
                    total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or =
dissemination)=20
                    by persons other than the intended recipient's) is=20
                    prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, =
please=20
                    notify the sender by phone or email <BR>immediately =
and=20
                    delete it!<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
                    <DIV>Practically speaking, IEEE 802.1X frames should =
be=20
                    transmitted at the same priority as IEEE 802.11 =
Management=20
                    frames. </DIV>
                    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
                    <DIV>I will update Section 11.5, rename Quality of =
Service=20
                    for IEEE 802.11 Control Messages to "Quality<BR>of =
Service=20
                    for IEEE 802.11 control messages and IEEE 802.1X =
EAPoL=20
                    frames" and add text to indicate that IEEE 802.1X =
frames are=20
                    sent at a higher priority.</DIV>
                    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
                    <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
                    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
                    =
<DIV>Mike</DIV><BR>______________________________________________________=
___________<BR>To=20
                    unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, =
please=20
                    visit:<BR><A=20
                    onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
                    =
href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap"=20
                    =
target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</A><BR>=
<BR>Archives:=20
                    <A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
                    href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap"=20
                    =
target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20
                    =
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>,
	"Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" <ssmitha@cisco.com>, <Capwap@frascone.com>
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> Seems like the behavior varies depending on the discovery 
> method. For a broadcast method, it seems reasonable that a 
> WTP should wait some reasonable period to probabalistically 
> ensure that it has received whatever discovery responses it 
> is going to receive before it acts. Otherwise, you could have 
> kid-in-a-candy-store behavior (I'll take that one! No -- that 
> one! Wait... I want THAT one!)  For a directed discover, 
> obviously the WTP can act upon receiving a response.

sure, but that seems like a logical "implementation specific" condition.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question
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From: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" <ssmitha@cisco.com>
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So, MaxDiscoveryInterval is not specific to an AC, in that it is a
global timer which decides how frequently we send out Discovery
Requests. But "DiscoveryCount" talks about the maximum # of discoveries
transmitted by the WTP to an AC.

Also, the spec says:
" A WTP MUST send no more than the maximum of
   MaxDiscoveries Discovery Request messages, waiting for a random delay
   less than MaxDiscoveryInterval between each successive message."

Is it OK to assume that:
1. DiscoveryInterval timer is the delay between successive discovery
requests sent to the same AC?
2. DiscoveryCount will be obtained based on DiscoveryInterval timer
(when the same expires).
3. MaxDiscoveryInterval - why is this needed?
4. Transition from Discovery to Sulking state occurs when DiscoveryCount
reaches the max limit - for a particular AC?

However, this does not cover the case of being able to "select" from a
set of discovery responses obtained at the WTP.

Thanks
Smitha

-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) 
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:35 AM
To: Scott G. Kelly; Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); Capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question

> Seems like the behavior varies depending on the discovery method. For 
> a broadcast method, it seems reasonable that a WTP should wait some 
> reasonable period to probabalistically ensure that it has received 
> whatever discovery responses it is going to receive before it acts. 
> Otherwise, you could have kid-in-a-candy-store behavior (I'll take 
> that one! No -- that one! Wait... I want THAT one!)  For a directed 
> discover, obviously the WTP can act upon receiving a response.

sure, but that seems like a logical "implementation specific" condition.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 10 10:56:35 2006
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Subject: [Capwap] LACK OF CONSENSUS:  2-port/mux issue
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Hi All,

Over the past few months, we have had an open issue in the CAPWAP WG  
that we refer to as the "2-port/mux issue".  The current CAPWAP  
protocol specification indicates that the CAPWAP protocol will run  
over two UDP ports, one for control traffic and one for data  
traffic.  Proposals have been made to move to a single-port approach  
or to allow for a single-port option.

There has been much discussion of this issue, including e-mail  
discussion and presentations at WG meetings.  We have consulted with  
the IESG, and the outcome of those discussions has been sent to the  
group.  At this point, we believe that every interested party has had  
an opportunity to present technical facts in support of his/her  
position, and we believe that the WG is aware of the technical  
differences between the two approaches.  So, it is time to determine  
the resolution of this issue.

The WG chairs have reviewed the status of this issue, and we have  
found that the WG does not have consensus to modify the  
demultiplexing mechanism described in the current CAPWAP  
specification, either to move to a single-port approach or to add a  
single-port option.  Therefore, in the absence of any new technical  
information, we are closing this discussion.  Editors, please close  
this issue in the issue tracker with a resolution indicating that  
there is no WG consensus to make this change.

We realize that this has been a contentious issue for the WG, and  
that some people may be dissatisfied with this resolution.  We all  
would have preferred our technical discussions to converge on a  
single correct choice, but that hasn't happened.  In this case, it is  
possible to build a viable CAPWAP protocol using either approach, and  
both approaches have advantages and disadvantages that are weighed  
differently by different parties.  Unless new technical information  
comes to light, we do not believe that continued discussion of this  
issue will lead to consensus on the technical superiority of either  
approach.

The WG chairs have reviewed the history of this issue to determine  
how to move forward, given that our technical discussions have not  
converged.  The two-port approach was part of the original LWAPP  
specification, and It was also included in the -00 version of the  
CAPWAP specification that was accepted as a WG work item in early  
2006.  There was WG consensus to accept LWAPP as the basis of the  
CAPWAP specification, therefore the WG chairs believe that WG  
consensus would be required to change the demultiplexing mechanism.   
Despite lengthy discussion, the WG has not reached consensus to do that.

We would like to thank everyone who has participated in this  
discussion.  We hope that we will be able to put this issue behind us  
and continue to work together towards a well-defined and widely- 
deployed CAPWAP specification.

Best Regards,

Dorothy Gellert, Mahalingam Mani & Margaret Wasserman
The CAPWAP WG Co-Chairs





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From daithitolman@brookdaleplastics.com Tue Oct 10 15:29:14 2006
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From gdhezbmx@werbach.com Wed Oct 11 03:06:36 2006
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Via in Mobile a Version Desktop Dooms.
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Sponsored by Popular Searches Blackjack is Movies Nintendo Paparazzi.
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Farmer country singer ac Greens Programs.
Record a Opponents a Last Preseason Garys Corner am number articles =20
written Adornato  keeping.
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From pivajgrd@unrural.com Wed Oct 11 17:36:48 2006
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From:	"paul" <pivajgrd@unrural.com>
To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: makes movie
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Enigmahx am Xploit Pandora hardware generall gaming am rss feeds besides =20
shop modchips of fast or secure online through world is.
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machine Martin lets burn or as Notwist.
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can accessed State.

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internal link wish change a point directly of intended.
Complete scene release list releases with nfo files microsoft xbox sony =20
ps nintendo gamecube ds console is.
Reserved logo trademark Email Privacy a Policy Haleakala Times am =20
Newspaper Mauis of Free Press from in Magic Isle print.
Pspide projects goal allow is thepsp utilize hard drive storage medium =20
Tiff Brickout or Released sg just.
Tricks forum Learn forums following or modchip software Xecuter Xecuter =20
Xecuterb or x or ii chameleon in Xbit Xodus Matrix or Alladin Advanced =20
in Xenium.
Version Pspd and Cash Giveaway been by a Xvidpsp This converter makes =20
movie withthe pmp mod player xtract Xtreme a?
User interface am multiple computer consoles typical am terminal =20
Microsoft Windowspc element specific playing gamesa of secondary or =20
browser.
Whom might recall said in Troy Mclure voice is Notwist cd insanely =20
catchy singles weve ever heard by.
Times even cause serious of problems in you but spins awesome March =20
tacking onto.
Fledged client pop or Smtp se Firmware Installer windows is installer =20
copy correct location memory stick you must running prior flashing.
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stuff courtesy friends Payola Wikipedia in free.
Link wish change point directly intended Article Edit toolssign links =20
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Boot Maker v Klutsh simple that a prepare floppy usb use Xsam Psposte =20
Beta coming now this something first full.
Not of email for Affil am programs is wil
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projects=20
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fishpond Kihei Health County Mayor Council of can accessed =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Chameleon Xbit am Xodus Matrix a =
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Xenium Smartxx Xchip Xlite Xlite Xeniums Openxbox Pcbioxx Xtender am =
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Messiah Messiahx!<BR>Financial bond company Real Estate Desktop articles =
same is=20
title in if internal link wish change a point directly of =
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nintendo=20
gamecube ds console is.<BR>Reserved logo trademark Email Privacy a =
Policy=20
Haleakala Times am Newspaper Mauis of Free Press from in Magic Isle=20
print.<BR>Pspide projects goal allow is thepsp utilize hard drive =
storage medium=20
Tiff Brickout or Released sg just.<BR>Tricks forum Learn forums =
following or=20
modchip software Xecuter Xecuter Xecuterb or x or ii chameleon in Xbit =
Xodus=20
Matrix or Alladin Advanced in Xenium.<BR>Version Pspd and Cash Giveaway =
been by=20
a Xvidpsp This converter makes movie withthe pmp mod player xtract =
Xtreme=20
a?<BR>User interface am multiple computer consoles typical am terminal =
Microsoft=20
Windowspc element specific playing gamesa of secondary or =
browser.<BR>Whom might=20
recall said in Troy Mclure voice is Notwist cd insanely catchy singles =
weve ever=20
heard by.<BR>Times even cause serious of problems in you but spins =
awesome March=20
tacking onto.<BR>Fledged client pop or Smtp se Firmware Installer =
windows is=20
installer copy correct location memory stick you must running prior=20
flashing.<BR>Kinda crackly variation in Skam styles already melodies a =
seep=20
wreckage stuff courtesy friends Payola Wikipedia in free.<BR>Link wish =
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point directly intended Article Edit toolssign links linkcite =
articlein.<BR>Boot=20
Maker v Klutsh simple that a prepare floppy usb use Xsam Psposte Beta =
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this something first full.<BR>Not of email for Affil am programs is will =

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Polls forumall times gmt or Page of day Days Weeks Month Months Year =20
Oldest First Select Land or Poemslove.
Forumyou reply cannot edit posts delete vote in polls forumall times gmt =20
Page of a day Days Weeks Month Months Year.
Lasting bliss is Believe when in say that one will take of your!

Topics forumyou or reply cannot is edit of posts delete vote polls =20
forumall.
Girl you boo wed pm Guest was so of sweet felt guy real tallent with =20
poetery.
Place at every new day of still put a smile upon face These feelings =20
have always true Never forget.
Posts delete vote polls forumall times of gmt Page of day Days Weeks =20
Month Months.
You boo wed pm Guest was so sweet felt guy real or.
Day Days Weeks Month Months Year Oldest First Select Land Poemslove =20
Music Home a Family.
True Never or forget girl am you a boo wed pm or Guest was so am sweet =20
felt.
Reply cannot edit is posts delete vote polls or forumall times in gmt =20
Page.
Have always true of Never forget girl you boo wed pm Guest was so sweet =20
or felt guy?
Share lasting bliss Believe is when a say that one will of take your =20
place at every is new day in.
Poetery Poemsyou can post topics a forumyou reply cannot edit posts =20
delete vote.
Just together and share lasting bliss Believe when say that one will =20
take your!
Never wanted end things like this just together of and share lasting or =20
bliss of Believe when.
Cjjunior of Member Joined jul Posts Location should leave would or want =20
you know 
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upon face These feelings have always true Never forget.<BR>Posts delete =
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Never forget girl you boo wed pm Guest was so sweet or felt =
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lasting bliss Believe is when a say that one will of take your place at =
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new day in.<BR>Poetery Poemsyou can post topics a forumyou reply cannot =
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posts delete vote.<BR>Just together and share lasting bliss Believe when =
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that one will take your!<BR>Never wanted end things like this just =
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Bliss Believe when say that one will take your place at of every in new =20
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will take a your place at a every a new.
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together and.
My hearts of telling me stay a but my in mind is urging go in never =20
wanted is end things l
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bliss Believe when say that one will =
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face These feelings have always or true.<BR>Posts delete vote polls =
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times gmt Page of day Days Weeks Month Months.</FONT></DIV>
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delete vote polls forumall times gmt Page of am day.<BR>Posts Location =
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leave would is want you know is my hearts telling me.<BR>That one is =
will take=20
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Poemslove Music in Home Family new Yearapril.<BR>D if Should am Leave or =
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Love Poems a View or previous or topic next Posted mon.<BR>This just or =
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and share lasting bliss Believe when say that one will take a your place =
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just in together and.<BR>My hearts of telling me stay a but my in mind =
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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 06:41:06 -0700
From: "Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>
To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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Cc: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP Reboot
	Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on
	CAPWAP-01 operations
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 It seems to be an implementers preference, which the
proposed text change accommodates - the message element "may" be included.
The AC may choose to ignore the data that is provided prior to
configuration.

Dorothy

On 10/9/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>  I personally prefer to start maintaining configuration and status state
> on the WTP after the join is complete. Is there a problem that arises with
> the current draft? Is this just a personal preference, or is there a bug?
>
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, September 29, 2006 2:22 PM
> *To:* Michael Montemurro
> *Cc:* capwap@frascone.com
> *Subject:* [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP Reboot
> Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations
>
>  All,
>
> Issue 177, "WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join"
> is listed below:
>
> *29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed
> are not clear enough.
>
> <PRC> Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the
> configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can
> clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value.*
>
> Believing that there may be times when it is desirable for the WTP to
> provide
> information to the AC about its stability, the proposed resolution to
> Issue 177 is
> to insert the following text at the end of
> Section 6.1 "Join Request":
>
> The following message element may be included in the Join Request message:
> - WTP Reboot Statistics, see Section 4.4.44.
>
> Comments please,
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dorothy
>
>
> On 6/30/06, Michael Montemurro <montemurro.michael@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > David, Pat,
> >
> > I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points in David's email. Happy
> > hunting!
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >  On 6/27/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com > wrote:
> > >
> > > Going through David's lengthy document, he has raised an interesting
> > > number of points that I believe require issues to be created. At one
> > > point I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in order to be brief, and
> > > introducing my own numbering scheme.
> > >
> > > 1) Can message elements be in any order? (I believe they should be)
> > >
> > > <PRC> Yes, and I suspect we need to include text to make it more
> > > obvious.
> > >
> > >
> > > 2) Are all specified message elements required? (The obvious answer is
> > > "yes", but this document doesn't discuss versioning. For example, what
> > > if in a new version of CAPWAP an additional message element was to be
> > > added. Would a new message type be created and the additional message
> > > element added to it, or the existing type reused?)
> > >
> > > <PRC> This is a great question, and one that does need to be addressed
> > > in the spec. In the Diameter protocol we dealt with this issue by
> > > including a "Mandatory to implement" bit. If any AVP was received,
> > > whose
> > > bit was set, yet was not recognized, then the request had to be
> > > rejected.
> > >
> > > <PRC> We could consider something similar here, but I believe with the
> > >
> > > firmware download component of the protocol it may be less of an issue
> > > -
> > > although not guaranteed. I would hope (and expect) that as the CAPWAP
> > > protocol extends, the AC would push new firmware to the WTP. This does
> > >
> > > require that the initial part of the state machine be fairly static,
> > > and
> > > this could be an area where the "Mandatory to implement" bit could be
> > > useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to older protocol
> > > behavior.
> > >
> > > 3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of indicating which message
> > > elements
> > > can be repeated.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Another good point. When we list the message elements, we should
> > > note whether the frequently is 0-1 (meaning absent or once), 1 (only
> > > once) or 0+ (meaning any number of them could be present.
> > >
> > >
> > > 4) Can "additional" message elements be added to a message? (I believe
> > > so for reporting capabilities, statistics, and     events. For
> > > configuration, there is nothing in the protocol that says what happens
> > > when one end gets an configuration     element it doesn't know about.
> > > Should it be ignored, and the other elements processed, or should the
> > > complete operation     failed?)
> > >
> > > <PRC> The "Mandatory to implement" bit above could address this issue.
> > > If an unrecognized message element is found to have the bit set, then
> > > the whole message needs to be rejected. If the bit is not set, the
> > > message element may be safely ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > 5) The config has a concept of "default value" for each configuration
> > > attribute. However, the default values are not clearly specified. This
> > > needs to be resolved to be able to support "default values".
> > >
> > > <PRC> Another good point raised by David.
> > >
> > >
> > > 6) the documentation of which "binding specific" message elements are
> > > to
> > > be included with CAPWAP messages is not consistent, and is difficult
> > > to
> > > follow.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Has this been addressed in the latest (-02) document?
> > >
> > >
> > > 7) There are some message elements that cause "actions". This approach
> > > to protocol design is problematic and should be eliminated.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Could you be more specific as well as provide guidance on what
> > > you
> > > would like to see?
> > >
> > >
> > > 8) The message types are inconsistently named, and do not follow the
> > > conventions of well designed protocols. Can the operations be named
> > > consistently with the following terminology:
> > >   1) request/response (used to get/set/perform action)
> > >   2) report/ack (use to tell the other side something)
> > >
> > > <PRC> Could you provide your thoughts on which messages fall within
> > > which one of your categories?
> > >
> > >
> > > 9) Many of the configuration items, and status items are not listed in
> > > one section with definitions. (Well make it two sections - one for
> > > CAPWAP and the other which is "binding" specific.) For example, not
> > > all
> > > of the time period lengths are identified and specified in section 4.5
> > > .
> > >
> > > <PRC> Unfortunately, the document has gone back and forth a few times
> > > and before we opt to change the structure of the document, I'd like to
> > >
> > > ensure that we have broad agreement on what we want - with the
> > > understanding that we will never make everyone happy.
> > >
> > >
> > > 10) each operation should have listed in which states it can be sent
> > > and
> > > received
> > >
> > > <PRC> I do not understand your comment.
> > >
> > >
> > > 11) All strings, such as WTP location, should be changed from US-ASCII
> > > encoding to UTF-8 encoding.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Agreed.
> > >
> > > 12) The term "mobile" is not really accurate when describing wireless
> > > interfaces, since wireless does not imply      mobile. Can we just use
> > > the techie term "STA" instead.
> > >
> > > <PRC> I agree we should use the term Station, or STA for short.
> > >
> > >
> > > 13) The WTP Descriptor message element contains too much information,
> > > lacks clarity on the WTP encryption field and includes version
> > > numbers,
> > > which should be in string form.
> > >
> > > <PRC> To the first point, I disagree. I think there is value in
> > > knowing
> > > everything about the WTP. The AC vendors can expose whatever
> > > information
> > > they want, but I don't believe anything is unnecessary.
> > >
> > > <PRC> To the second point, this is one of those areas where the
> > > concept
> > > of the technology binding creates complexity. Given that we cannot
> > > simply discuss 802.11i at this point, the only thing we can do is punt
> > > to another section in the technology binding section. That said, I
> > > agree
> > > with Dave that the 802.11 binding section is too light in this area.
> > > However, I would much prefer that instead of trying to address this
> > > specific issue, we discuss whether we should even be supporting the
> > > mode
> > > of operation where 802.11i is performed in the AC - especially with
> > > the
> > > introduction of DTLS to secure the data plane. Right now, it just
> > > feels
> > > like we have too many options and I am worried that interoperability
> > > will be severely impacted (not to mention protocol complexity).
> > >
> > > <PRC> To the last point, I have no issues with including text stating
> > > that the version numbers should be in string form.
> > >
> > >
> > > 14) The WTP Descriptor information is not required at Join time.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Well, as far as I can tell, I think there's value in knowing
> > > whether the WTP can even be supported by the AC. So the more info is
> > > provided by the WTP, the better the AC can determine whether it should
> > > just ignore the WTP or not. This could be done because it knows that
> > > the
> > > firmware running on the WTP is not compatible, and it has no new
> > > firmware to download.
> > >
> > >
> > > 15) Are the values in the WTP Frame Encryption a capabilities bit, or
> > > an
> > > enum?
> > >
> > > <PRC> Looks like an enum to me. Not sure what Dave would prefer the
> > > text
> > > to read. There are various other similar comments throughout, which I
> > > will not repeat here.
> > >
> > >
> > > 16) The Discovery Response is broken. The AC SHOULD NOT be providing
> > > any
> > > info to a WTP (or something that claims to be a WTP). Also, the AC
> > > should tell the WTP what to do next, with choices: 1) Ok to try to
> > > join,
> > > 2) don't try to join, 3) try                     discover on a list of
> > > returned ACs)
> > >
> > > <PRC> I don't believe there is an issue with sending the AC's
> > > information to the WTP, but would solicit input from the list. That
> > > said, some of the information in the AC Descriptor is required, such
> > > as
> > > the current load on the AC. No point is trying to join if he AC
> > > indicates it's already at max capacity.
> > > <PRC> I believe if the AC does not return the response, then it
> > > implies
> > > (2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is handled during the join or configure
> > > process, which I believe is right.
> > >
> > >
> > > 17) Is AC Name text?
> > >
> > > <PRC> Yes, and same with WTP Name.
> > >
> > >
> > > 18) Primary Discovery are not required.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Disagree. Required for failover.
> > >
> > >
> > > 19) The text does not make it clear that the contents of the WTP
> > > Location is informative only, and as Dave calls it, a "scratchpad".
> > >
> > > <PRC> Well, to be honest, I thought the example "next to the fridge"
> > > made it clear that the information did not derive from any scientific
> > > formula. The description also states this is a user-defined. I believe
> > > this should be good enough.
> > >
> > >
> > > 20) Session is not required
> > >
> > > <PRC> I believe you may be correct that with the transition to DTLS,
> > > this is no longer required.
> > >
> > >
> > > 21) need to send "common name" as found in the WTP CERT so that the AC
> > > can verify
> > >
> > > <PRC> The protocol currently relies on the MAC address being the key
> > > that binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't see a need to change
> > > this.
> > >
> > >
> > > 22) Result code in Join Response is not sufficient, for instance WTP
> > > HW
> > > not supported.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Well, the protocol does not require this because the Discovery
> > > Response would never be sent (as the protocol stands today).
> > >
> > >
> > > 23) AC IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering, which is unnecessary.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Agreed.
> > >
> > >
> > > 24) Change Echo to Keepalive or heartbeat.
> > >
> > > <PRC> I call it potato....
> > >
> > >
> > > 25) What if all of the message elements do not fit within a single
> > > CAPWAP control frame.
> > >
> > > <PRC> We should address this.
> > >
> > >
> > > 26) AC Name with Index is all messed up...
> > >
> > > <PRC> Not really. You simply include more than one, and the index
> > > field
> > > is clearly the priority. Don't understand the Multi-AC comment. No
> > > inter-AC protocol implied here.
> > >
> > >
> > > 27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not configure.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Agreed, but wonder even more why we are duplicating this
> > > information across both the WTP Descriptor and the WTP Board Data
> > > message elements.
> > >
> > >
> > > 28) The WTP Static IPv4 Address should not have the Static bit, but
> > > instead state that 0.0.0.0 means a static address is not to be used.
> > >
> > > <PRC> I don't have an issue with this request, but in the end we have
> > > the same function. The reason why I state this is that we can refine
> > > this protocol until the cows come home, and at one point we need to
> > > draw
> > > a line in the sand.
> > >
> > >
> > > 29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed
> > > are not clear enough.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the
> > > configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can
> > > clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value.
> > >
> > >
> > > 30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's BSSID
> > > field should be an array.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Disagree.
> > >
> > >
> > > 30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's Country
> > > Code is not clear enough.
> > >
> > > <PRC> The text points to the actual MIB element in the 802.11-1999
> > > standard, which very clearly defines the contents of the field. I
> > > don't
> > > think there's value in replicating the format of this field in the
> > > CAPWAP standard.
> > >
> > >
> > > 31) There seems like an awful lot of additional configuration message
> > > elements that need to be specified here!
> > >
> > > <PRC> Having built a protocol based on this, it's not clear to me
> > > what's
> > > missing. I think it would be useful if you provided concrete details
> > > on
> > > what's missing.
> > >
> > >
> > > 32) Configuration Status is just plain broken because any
> > > configuration
> > > change operation may fail and there is no           response to the
> > > configuration changes specified in this command.
> > >
> > > <PRC> There certainly is - I guess I don't understand the concern.
> > >
> > >
> > > 33) Use of Change State Event should instead be Radio Admin State.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Perhaps the two are not described properly. The first is used by
> > >
> > > the WTP to inform the AC that something has occurred with a radio. The
> > > second is used by the AC to enable/disable a radio.
> > >
> > >
> > > 34) Report Timer needs to be in section 4.5 or 11
> > >
> > > <PRC> ok
> > >
> > >
> > > 35) Should Idle Timeout be per radio, or per WTP, and should the value
> > > be defined in section 4.5 or 11.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine as it is.
> > >
> > >
> > > 36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and should be removed.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Disagree. I believe it is necessary to create enough resiliency
> > > in
> > > the protocol/service.
> > >
> > >
> > > 37) How are the "Rate Set" and "Supported Rates" encoded.
> > >
> > > <PRC> This was fixed in the -02
> > >
> > >
> > > 38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the configuration, but instead in
> > > the
> > > join.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Not sure this really matters....
> > >
> > >
> > > 39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so strange and is being managed like
> > > no
> > > other configuration data.
> > >
> > > <PRC> I do not understand the comment
> > >
> > >
> > > 40) Decryption Error Report Period is not defined in section 4.5 or 11
> > >
> > > <PRC> ok, and note that the information has been moved to the IEEE
> > > 802.11 RSNA Error Report From Mobile
> > >
> > >
> > > 41) Configuration Update Response. today, there are primarily two
> > > types
> > > of configuration models. The first is when config is changed, it is
> > > only
> > > changed in the volatile copy (the memory or running). An explicit
> > > command is needed to save the config to nonvolatile storage. The
> > > second
> > > model has config both running (volatile) and saved (nonvolatile)
> > > config
> > > changed when a config change is made. And there might be a special
> > > command to have a config change apply to only one. In this case, there
> > > is no need for a "save config to nonvolatile" command. It is not clear
> > > what is suppose to be supported here in CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP
> > > support devices with no or very limited nonvolatile storage for
> > > config!
> > >
> > > <PRC> CAPWAP does not support WTPs with no nonvolatile storage. The
> > > protocol has the AC push configs to the WTP, which saves them at the
> > > time they are received. I do not believe anything else is required.
> > >
> > >
> > > 42) Configuration Update Response includes the Result Code message
> > > element, which includes values that do not appear to be relevant for
> > > this message, and there are plenty of other failure cases
> > >
> > > <PRC> ok, but note that we are sharing a common message element. Any
> > > suggestions on how to address your issue?
> > >
> > >
> > > 43) Change State Event Report. This seems a little silly to be sent in
> > >
> > > the "configure" state. It seems only appropriate for the "run" state.
> > > Some might argue that even in the "run" state it shouldn't be sent
> > > after
> > > a "config update" request that changes the operational state. However,
> > >
> > > in the "run" state, it may take a while to have the operational state
> > > change to follow the admin state. Thus, I think it is OK in the "run"
> > > state after config changes."
> > >
> > > <PRC> I believe this was addressed in -02.
> > >
> > >
> > > 44) Clear Config Request. this operation has several problems, which
> > > include:
> > >    1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec says that this can only be done in
> > > the "run" state. This is silly. It should also be possible in the
> > > "configure" state.
> > > <PRC> I wonder why the AC would even consider clearing the WTP's state
> > > before it even knows how it is configured.
> > >
> > >    2) the value of "manufacturing defaults" is not defined, and a poor
> > >
> > > term to use, since it implies that that each manufacturer can have
> > > different values. If so, then the AC will have no knowledge of the
> > > config on the WTP! The problem of "default config values" has already
> > > be
> > > mentioned above. After each config attribute has been defined with a
> > > default value, then the proper term would be "CAPWAP config defaults".
> > > <PRC> Yes, you've raised this point already, and I agree that it does
> > > need to be addressed.
> > >
> > >    3) This operation is not defined to have a response. This is
> > > broken,
> > > since any config change can fail. Also, it is not defined what happens
> > > next. Does this cause the WTP to reboot an start a "clean discovery"?
> > > <PRC> This was addressed in -02
> > >
> > >
> > > 45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are actually three different "Image
> > > Data Request" messages. Which one is determined          by which of
> > > the
> > > three message elements is contained. This is completely silly! There
> > > should be three separate operations! Additionally, how does the WTP
> > > know
> > > which image to get? The AC should be making that decision.
> > >
> > > <PRC> I believe the WTP is the only device that knows what it's
> > > filename
> > > should be. Why would an AC vendor know about file naming conventions
> > > used by the WTP vendors? I believe your other issues are discussed in
> > > the next items.
> > >
> > >
> > > 46) Image Data Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There
> > >
> > > needs to be message element that indicates the          result.
> > >
> > > <PRC> How so? This is only used to send firmware to the WTP. Not clear
> > > what could fail... Reading the image from flash?
> > >
> > >
> > > 47) Image Data Request. when starting over again at the WTP start
> > > state,
> > > the WTP shouldn't use the "normal" discovery process, but instead
> > > "fast
> > > track" a connection back to the AC that just downloaded the image.
> > > With
> > > a little more          work, we could probably figure out a way to
> > > reuse
> > > the old DTLS session.
> > >
> > > <PRC> To what gain? What is so expensive about the discovery, and what
> > > happened if the AC was not longer reachable?
> > >
> > >
> > > 48) opcode - if this is here, might as well also have a value that
> > > indicates last block of the image file, instead of looking at the
> > > block
> > > size.
> > >
> > > <PRC> But we're just changing for the sake of changing - the protocol
> > > works as-is.
> > >
> > >
> > > 49) since this operation does not have the block number as a
> > > parameter,
> > > the WTP must determine the block number via the CAPWAP message header
> > > sequence number.  NOTE: DTLS does not provide in-order delivery of
> > > packets. Also, this requires the WTP to remember state. This message
> > > element should be re-engineered to have the following subfields:
> > > [edited]
> > >
> > > <PRC> The control header includes a sequence number, and while we can
> > > change the current protocol to match your recommendations, the
> > > protocol
> > > does work. If it ain't broken...
> > >
> > >
> > > 50) Image Data Response. this is silly. This operation can fail!  For
> > > example, the WTP can run out of space to store          the block, or
> > > there could be a failure in writing the block to storage. (Or as
> > > "Image
> > > Data Request"(9.1a) is presently specified, the checksum match could
> > > fail.) There needs to be message element that indicates the result.)
> > > Note: don't need a block number field, since request and responses are
> > > paired.
> > >
> > > <PRC> We can include a result code
> > >
> > >
> > > 51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief
> > >
> > > <PRC> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-). Seriously, the
> > > protocol
> > > does work, so what exactly are you looking for?
> > >
> > >
> > > 52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This operation can fail! There
> > > needs to be message element that indicates the          result.
> > >
> > > <PRC> See above comment.
> > >
> > > 53) Reset Request. ...
> > >
> > > <PRC> The comment is irrelevant now that Clear Config has changed.
> > >
> > >
> > > 54) Reset Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There
> > > needs
> > > to be message element that indicates the          result.
> > >
> > > <PRC> I sense a trend. I will stop including these messages from now
> > > on.
> > >
> > >
> > > 55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this reported if the condition
> > > remains?
> > >
> > > <PRC> Only required once, I think, but we may want to include some
> > > text
> > > covering that.
> > >
> > >
> > > 56) the list of events seems understated!
> > >
> > > <PRC> Text and conditions please
> > >
> > >
> > > 57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have - remove.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Disagree. Providing diagnostics capabilities is required.
> > >
> > >
> > > 58) Mobile Config Request. the actual details of how this works on
> > > both
> > > splitMAC and especially localMAC are not well specified. That is, only
> > > the figures and text in sections 11.1.1 and 11.1.2 provide any clue as
> > > to events that would cause an AC to send this message type. Also,
> > > there
> > > are restrictions on combinations of parameters that can be included in
> > > the message.
> > >
> > > <PRC> I wonder whether other folks agree that more details are
> > > required.
> > >
> > >
> > > 59) it doesn't say if one message can be used to update more than one
> > > STA. It should be able.
> > >
> > > <PRC> No, otherwise you end up with the problem of associating
> > > specific
> > > message elements with a given mobile. One mobile per request.
> > >
> > >
> > > 60) IEEE 802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC address be included so
> > > this message element can be matched with a (4.4.8)Add Mobile message
> > > element?
> > >
> > > <PRC> I believe this is to your previous point, but the protocol
> > > assumes
> > > one mobile per request.
> > >
> > >
> > > 61) IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for data traffic to the AC?
> > > If
> > > so, then why is this an 802.11 message element
> > >
> > > <PRC> Intended to be a way to push policies to the WTP to prioritize
> > > mobile traffic.
> > >
> > >
> > > 62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why is a new message type that is
> > > 802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11 WLANs? It seems like the
> > > existing "(8.4)Configuration Update Request" message could be used.
> > >
> > > <PRC> To be more specific only.
> > >
> > >
> > > 63) note here there are information elements to create, delete, and
> > > modify WLANs. However, for message type "(10.1)Mobile Config Request",
> > > there is only add and delete (and the "add" used to modify).
> > >
> > > <PRC> Correct. The protocol requires the AC to resend a new add with a
> > > different policy. No specific reason, but if this is deemed
> > > inconsistent, we could change it.
> > >
> > >
> > > 64) IEEE 802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping of WLAN IDs to BSSIDs
> > > seems like it needs a little more work
> > >
> > > <PRC> What exactly would you like to see?
> > >
> > >
> > > Pat Calhoun
> > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> > > Cisco Systems
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: David T. Perkins [mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 4:31 PM
> > > > To: capwap@frascone.com
> > > > Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations
> > > >
> > > > HI,
> > > >
> > > > I've attached a long file that summarizes the operations in
> > > > CAPWAP-01.
> > > >
> > > > Enjoy,
> > > > /david t. perkins
> > > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> > >
> > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> > >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> >
> >
>

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&nbsp;It seems to be an implementers preference, which the<br>
proposed text change accommodates - the message element &quot;may&quot; be included.<br>
The AC may choose to ignore the data that is provided prior to configuration.<br>
<br>
Dorothy<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/9/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com">pcalhoun@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">




<div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">I 
personally prefer to start maintaining configuration and status state on the WTP 
after the join is complete. Is there a problem that arises with the current 
draft? Is this just a personal preference, or is there a 
bug?</font></span></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<p align="left"><font size="2">Pat Calhoun<br>CTO, Wireless Networking Business 
Unit<br>Cisco Systems</font></p>
<div>&nbsp;</div><br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
  <div align="left" dir="ltr" lang="en-us">
  <hr>
  <font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> Dorothy Stanley 
  [mailto:<a href="mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dstanley1389@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 29, 2006 
  2:22 PM<br><b>To:</b> Michael Montemurro<br><b>Cc:</b> 
  <a href="mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b>  [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 
  <span id="st" name="st" class="st">177</span> WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01 
  operations<br></font><br></div>
  <div></div>
  <div>All,</div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div>Issue <span id="st" name="st" class="st">177</span>, &quot;WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join&quot;</div>
  <div>is listed below:</div><pre><em>29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed<br>are not clear enough.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the<br>configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can
<br>clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value.</em></pre>
  <div>Believing that there may be times when it is desirable for the 
  WTP&nbsp;to provide </div>
  <div>information to the AC about its stability, the proposed resolution to 
  Issue <span id="st" name="st" class="st">177</span> is <br>to insert the following text at the end of</div>
  <div>Section 6.1 &quot;Join Request&quot;:</div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div>The following message element may be included in the Join Request 
  message:</div>
  <div>- WTP Reboot Statistics, see Section 4.4.44.</div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div>Comments please,</div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div>Thanks,</div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div>Dorothy<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><span class="gmail_quote">On 6/30/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Michael 
  Montemurro</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">montemurro.michael@gmail.com</a>&gt; 
  wrote:</span> 
  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
    <div>David, Pat,</div>
    <div>&nbsp;</div>
    <div>I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points <span name="st">in</span> David's email. Happy hunting!</div>
    <div>&nbsp;</div>
    <div>Mike<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
    <div><span>
    <div><span class="gmail_quote">On 6/27/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Pat 
    Calhoun (pacalhou)</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">pcalhoun@cisco.com </a>&gt; 
    wrote:</span> 
    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Going 
      through David's lengthy document, he has raised an interesting<br>number 
      of points that I believe require issues to be created. At one <br>point 
      I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in order to be brief, and<br>introducing 
      my own numbering scheme.<br><br>1) Can message elements be in any order? 
      (I believe they should be)<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes, and I suspect we need 
      to include text to make it more <br>obvious.<br><br><br>2) Are all 
      specified message elements required? (The obvious answer is<br>&quot;yes&quot;, but 
      this document doesn't discuss versioning. For example, what<br>if in a new 
      version of CAPWAP an additional message element was to be <br>added. Would 
      a new message type be created and the additional message<br>element added 
      to it, or the existing type reused?)<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; This is a great 
      question, and one that does need to be addressed<br>in the spec. In the 
      Diameter protocol we dealt with this issue by <br>including a &quot;Mandatory 
      to implement&quot; bit. If any AVP was received, whose<br>bit was set, yet was 
      not recognized, then the request had to be<br>rejected.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
      We could consider something similar here, but I believe with the 
      <br>firmware download component of the protocol it may be less of an issue 
      -<br>although not guaranteed. I would hope (and expect) that as the 
      CAPWAP<br>protocol extends, the AC would push new firmware to the WTP. 
      This does <br>require that the initial part of the state machine be fairly 
      static, and<br>this could be an area where the &quot;Mandatory to implement&quot; 
      bit could be<br>useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to older 
      protocol behavior. <br><br>3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of 
      indicating which message elements<br>can be repeated.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
      Another good point. When we list the message elements, we should<br>note 
      whether the frequently is 0-1 (meaning absent or once), 1 (only <br>once) 
      or 0+ (meaning any number of them could be present.<br><br><br>4) Can 
      &quot;additional&quot; message elements be added to a message? (I believe<br>so for 
      reporting capabilities, statistics, and&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; events. 
      For<br>configuration, there is nothing in the protocol that says what 
      happens<br>when one end gets an configuration&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
      element it doesn't know about.<br>Should it be ignored, and the other 
      elements processed, or should the<br>complete 
      operation&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; failed?) <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; The 
      &quot;Mandatory to implement&quot; bit above could address this issue.<br>If an 
      unrecognized message element is found to have the bit set, then<br>the 
      whole message needs to be rejected. If the bit is not set, the <br>message 
      element may be safely ignored.<br><br><br>5) The config has a concept of 
      &quot;default value&quot; for each configuration<br>attribute. However, the default 
      values are not clearly specified. This<br>needs to be resolved to be able 
      to support &quot;default values&quot;. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Another good point raised 
      by David.<br><br><br>6) the documentation of which &quot;binding specific&quot; 
      message elements are to<br>be included with CAPWAP messages is not 
      consistent, and is difficult to <br>follow.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Has this 
      been addressed in the latest (-02) document?<br><br><br>7) There are some 
      message elements that cause &quot;actions&quot;. This approach<br>to protocol design 
      is problematic and should be eliminated. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Could you be 
      more specific as well as provide guidance on what you<br>would like to 
      see?<br><br><br>8) The message types are inconsistently named, and do not 
      follow the<br>conventions of well designed protocols. Can the operations 
      be named <br>consistently with the following 
      terminology:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;1) request/response (used to get/set/perform 
      action)<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;2) report/ack (use to tell the other side 
      something)<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Could you provide your thoughts on which 
      messages fall within <br>which one of your categories?<br><br><br>9) Many 
      of the configuration items, and status items are not listed in<br>one 
      section with definitions. (Well make it two sections - one for<br>CAPWAP 
      and the other which is &quot;binding&quot; specific.) For example, not all <br>of 
      the time period lengths are identified and specified in section 
      4.5.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Unfortunately, the document has gone back and 
      forth a few times<br>and before we opt to change the structure of the 
      document, I'd like to <br>ensure that we have broad agreement on what we 
      want - with the<br>understanding that we will never make everyone 
      happy.<br><br><br>10) each operation should have listed in which states it 
      can be sent and<br>received<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I do not understand your 
      comment.<br><br><br>11) All strings, such as WTP location, should be 
      changed from US-ASCII<br>encoding to UTF-8 encoding.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
      Agreed.<br><br>12) The term &quot;mobile&quot; is not really accurate when 
      describing wireless <br>interfaces, since wireless does not 
      imply&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;mobile. Can we just use<br>the 
      techie term &quot;STA&quot; instead.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I agree we should use the 
      term Station, or STA for short.<br><br><br>13) The WTP Descriptor message 
      element contains too much information, <br>lacks clarity on the WTP 
      encryption field and includes version numbers,<br>which should be in 
      string form.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; To the first point, I disagree. I think 
      there is value in knowing<br>everything about the WTP. The AC vendors can 
      expose whatever information <br>they want, but I don't believe anything is 
      unnecessary.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; To the second point, this is one of those 
      areas where the concept<br>of the technology binding creates complexity. 
      Given that we cannot<br>simply discuss 802.11i at this point, the only 
      thing we can do is punt<br>to another section in the technology binding 
      section. That said, I agree<br>with Dave that the 802.11 binding section 
      is too light in this area.<br>However, I would much prefer that instead of 
      trying to address this <br>specific issue, we discuss whether we should 
      even be supporting the mode<br>of operation where 802.11i is performed in 
      the AC - especially with the<br>introduction of DTLS to secure the data 
      plane. Right now, it just feels <br>like we have too many options and I am 
      worried that interoperability<br>will be severely impacted (not to mention 
      protocol complexity).<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; To the last point, I have no 
      issues with including text stating <br>that the version numbers should be 
      in string form.<br><br><br>14) The WTP Descriptor information is not 
      required at Join time.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Well, as far as I can tell, I 
      think there's value in knowing<br>whether the WTP can even be supported by 
      the AC. So the more info is <br>provided by the WTP, the better the AC can 
      determine whether it should<br>just ignore the WTP or not. This could be 
      done because it knows that the<br>firmware running on the WTP is not 
      compatible, and it has no new<br>firmware to download.<br><br><br>15) Are 
      the values in the WTP Frame Encryption a capabilities bit, or 
      an<br>enum?<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Looks like an enum to me. Not sure what 
      Dave would prefer the text<br>to read. There are various other similar 
      comments throughout, which I <br>will not repeat here.<br><br><br>16) The 
      Discovery Response is broken. The AC SHOULD NOT be providing any<br>info 
      to a WTP (or something that claims to be a WTP). Also, the AC<br>should 
      tell the WTP what to do next, with choices: 1) Ok to try to join, <br>2)
don't try to join, 3)
try&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
discover on a list of<br>returned ACs)<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I don't believe 
      there is an issue with sending the AC's<br>information to the WTP, but 
      would solicit input from the list. That <br>said, some of the information 
      in the AC Descriptor is required, such as<br>the current load on the AC. 
      No point is trying to join if he AC<br>indicates it's already at max 
      capacity.<br>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe if the AC does not return the response, 
      then it implies <br>(2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is handled during the 
      join or configure<br>process, which I believe is right.<br><br><br>17) Is 
      AC Name text?<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes, and same with WTP 
      Name.<br><br><br>18) Primary Discovery are not required. 
      <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. Required for failover.<br><br><br>19) The 
      text does not make it clear that the contents of the WTP<br>Location is 
      informative only, and as Dave calls it, a &quot;scratchpad&quot;.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
      Well, to be honest, I thought the example &quot;next to the fridge&quot; <br>made it 
      clear that the information did not derive from any scientific<br>formula. 
      The description also states this is a user-defined. I believe<br>this 
      should be good enough.<br><br><br>20) Session is not 
      required<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe you may be correct that with the 
      transition to DTLS,<br>this is no longer required.<br><br><br>21) need to 
      send &quot;common name&quot; as found in the WTP CERT so that the AC<br>can 
      verify<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; The protocol currently relies on the MAC address 
      being the key<br>that binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't see a need 
      to change<br>this.<br><br><br>22) Result code in Join Response is not 
      sufficient, for instance WTP HW <br>not supported.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
      Well, the protocol does not require this because the Discovery<br>Response 
      would never be sent (as the protocol stands today).<br><br><br>23) AC 
      IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering, which is unnecessary. 
      <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Agreed.<br><br><br>24) Change Echo to Keepalive or 
      heartbeat.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I call it potato....<br><br><br>25) What if 
      all of the message elements do not fit within a single<br>CAPWAP control 
      frame. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; We should address this.<br><br><br>26) AC Name 
      with Index is all messed up...<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Not really. You simply 
      include more than one, and the index field<br>is clearly the priority. 
      Don't understand the Multi-AC comment. No <br>inter-AC protocol implied 
      here.<br><br><br>27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not 
      configure.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Agreed, but wonder even more why we are 
      duplicating this<br>information across both the WTP Descriptor and the WTP 
      Board Data <br>message elements.<br><br><br>28) The WTP Static IPv4 
      Address should not have the Static bit, but<br>instead state that <a href="http://0.0.0.0/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">0.0.0.0 </a>means a static address is 
      not to be used.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I don't have an issue with this 
      request, but in the end we have <br>the same function. The reason why I 
      state this is that we can refine<br>this protocol until the cows come 
      home, and at one point we need to draw <br>a line in the 
      sand.<br><br><br>29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the 
      reasons listed <br>are not clear enough.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Doesn't really 
      matter whether this is included in the<br>configuration or the join, but 
      if the WG agrees to move it. We can <br>clarify some of the reasons, as 
      long as it provides value. <br><br><br>30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio 
      Configuration message element's BSSID<br>field should be an 
      array.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree.<br><br><br>30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP 
      Radio Configuration message element's Country<br>Code is not clear 
      enough.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; The text points to the actual MIB element in 
      the 802.11-1999<br>standard, which very clearly defines the contents of 
      the field. I don't <br>think there's value in replicating the format of 
      this field in the <br>CAPWAP standard.<br><br><br>31) There seems like an 
      awful lot of additional configuration message<br>elements that need to be 
      specified here!<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Having built a protocol based on this, 
      it's not clear to me what's <br>missing. I think it would be useful if you 
      provided concrete details on<br>what's missing.<br><br><br>32) 
      Configuration Status is just plain broken because any configuration 
      <br>change operation may fail and there is 
      no&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; response to 
      the <br>configuration changes specified in this 
      command.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; There certainly is - I guess I don't 
      understand the concern.<br><br><br>33) Use of Change State Event should 
      instead be Radio Admin State. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Perhaps the two are not 
      described properly. The first is used by <br>the WTP to inform the AC that 
      something has occurred with a radio. The<br>second is used by the AC to 
      enable/disable a radio.<br><br><br>34) Report Timer needs to be in section 
      4.5 or 11<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; ok<br><br><br>35) Should Idle Timeout be per 
      radio, or per WTP, and should the value<br>be defined in section 4.5 or 
      11.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine as it is. 
      <br><br><br>36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and should be removed. 
      <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. I believe it is necessary to create enough 
      resiliency in<br>the protocol/service.<br><br><br>37) How are the &quot;Rate 
      Set&quot; and &quot;Supported Rates&quot; encoded. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; This was fixed in 
      the -02 <br><br><br>38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the configuration, 
      but instead in the<br>join.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Not sure this really 
      matters....<br><br><br>39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so strange and is 
      being managed like no <br>other configuration data.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I 
      do not understand the comment<br><br><br>40) Decryption Error Report 
      Period is not defined in section 4.5 or 11<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; ok, and note 
      that the information has been moved to the IEEE <br>802.11 RSNA Error 
      Report From Mobile<br><br><br>41) Configuration Update Response. today, 
      there are primarily two types<br>of configuration models. The first is 
      when config is changed, it is only<br>changed in the volatile copy (the 
      memory or running). An explicit <br>command is needed to save the config 
      to nonvolatile storage. The second<br>model has config both running 
      (volatile) and saved (nonvolatile) config<br>changed when a config change 
      is made. And there might be a special<br>command to have a config change 
      apply to only one. In this case, there<br>is no need for a &quot;save config to 
      nonvolatile&quot; command. It is not clear<br>what is suppose to be supported 
      here in CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP <br>support devices with no or very 
      limited nonvolatile storage for config!<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; CAPWAP does not 
      support WTPs with no nonvolatile storage. The<br>protocol has the AC push 
      configs to the WTP, which saves them at the <br>time they are received. I 
      do not believe anything else is required.<br><br><br>42) Configuration 
      Update Response includes the Result Code message<br>element, which 
      includes values that do not appear to be relevant for <br>this message, 
      and there are plenty of other failure cases<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; ok, but 
      note that we are sharing a common message element. Any<br>suggestions on 
      how to address your issue?<br><br><br>43) Change State Event Report. This 
      seems a little silly to be sent in <br>the &quot;configure&quot; state. It seems 
      only appropriate for the &quot;run&quot; state.<br>Some might argue that even in the 
      &quot;run&quot; state it shouldn't be sent after<br>a &quot;config update&quot; request that 
      changes the operational state. However, <br>in the &quot;run&quot; state, it may 
      take a while to have the operational state<br>change to follow the admin 
      state. Thus, I think it is OK in the &quot;run&quot;<br>state after config 
      changes.&quot;<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe this was addressed in -02. 
      <br><br><br>44) Clear Config Request. this operation has several problems, 
      which<br>include:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec says 
      that this can only be done in<br>the &quot;run&quot; state. This is silly. It should 
      also be possible in the <br>&quot;configure&quot; state.<br>&lt;PRC&gt; I wonder why 
      the AC would even consider clearing the WTP's state<br>before it even 
      knows how it is configured.<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; 2) the value of 
      &quot;manufacturing defaults&quot; is not defined, and a poor <br>term to use, since 
      it implies that that each manufacturer can have<br>different values. If 
      so, then the AC will have no knowledge of the<br>config on the WTP! The 
      problem of &quot;default config values&quot; has already be <br>mentioned above. 
      After each config attribute has been defined with a<br>default value, then 
      the proper term would be &quot;CAPWAP config defaults&quot;.<br>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes, 
      you've raised this point already, and I agree that it does <br>need to be 
      addressed.<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; 3) This operation is not defined to have a 
      response. This is broken,<br>since any config change can fail. Also, it is 
      not defined what happens<br>next. Does this cause the WTP to reboot an 
      start a &quot;clean discovery&quot;? <br>&lt;PRC&gt; This was addressed in 
      -02<br><br><br>45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are actually three 
      different &quot;Image<br>Data Request&quot; messages. Which one is 
      determined&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;by 
      which of the<br>three message elements is contained. This is completely 
      silly! There <br>should be three separate operations! Additionally, how 
      does the WTP know<br>which image to get? The AC should be making that 
      decision.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe the WTP is the only device that 
      knows what it's filename <br>should be. Why would an AC vendor know about 
      file naming conventions<br>used by the WTP vendors? I believe your other 
      issues are discussed in<br>the next items.<br><br><br>46) Image Data 
      Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There <br>needs to be 
      message element that indicates 
      the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
      How so? This is only used to send firmware to the WTP. Not clear<br>what 
      could fail... Reading the image from flash?<br><br><br>47) Image Data 
      Request. when starting over again at the WTP start state, <br>the WTP 
      shouldn't use the &quot;normal&quot; discovery process, but instead &quot;fast<br>track&quot; 
      a connection back to the AC that just downloaded the image. With<br>a 
      little 
      more&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;work, we 
      could probably figure out a way to reuse <br>the old DTLS 
      session.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; To what gain? What is so expensive about the 
      discovery, and what<br>happened if the AC was not longer 
      reachable?<br><br><br>48) opcode - if this is here, might as well also 
      have a value that <br>indicates last block of the image file, instead of 
      looking at the block<br>size.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; But we're just changing 
      for the sake of changing - the protocol<br>works as-is.<br><br><br>49) 
      since this operation does not have the block number as a parameter, 
      <br>the WTP must determine the block number via the CAPWAP message 
      header<br>sequence number.&nbsp;&nbsp;NOTE: DTLS does not provide in-order 
      delivery of<br>packets. Also, this requires the WTP to remember state. 
      This message<br>element should be re-engineered to have the following 
      subfields: <br>[edited]<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; The control header includes a 
      sequence number, and while we can<br>change the current protocol to match 
      your recommendations, the protocol<br>does work. If it ain't 
      broken...<br><br><br>50) Image Data Response. this is silly. This 
      operation can fail!&nbsp;&nbsp;For <br>example, the WTP can run out of 
      space to 
      store&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the 
      block, or<br>there could be a failure in writing the block to storage. (Or 
      as &quot;Image<br>Data Request&quot;(9.1a) is presently specified, the checksum 
      match could <br>fail.) There needs to be message element that indicates 
      the result.)<br>Note: don't need a block number field, since request and 
      responses are<br>paired.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; We can include a result 
      code<br><br><br>51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief 
      <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-). Seriously, 
      the protocol<br>does work, so what exactly are you looking 
      for?<br><br><br>52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This operation can 
      fail! There<br>needs to be message element that indicates 
      the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
      See above comment.<br><br>53) Reset Request. ...<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; The 
      comment is irrelevant now that Clear Config has changed.<br><br><br>54) 
      Reset Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There needs<br>to 
      be message element that indicates 
      the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
      I sense a trend. I will stop including these messages from now 
      on.<br><br><br>55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this reported if 
      the condition<br>remains?<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Only required once, I think, 
      but we may want to include some text<br>covering that.<br><br><br>56) the 
      list of events seems understated! <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Text and conditions 
      please<br><br><br>57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have - 
      remove.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. Providing diagnostics capabilities is 
      required.<br><br><br>58) Mobile Config Request. the actual details of how 
      this works on both <br>splitMAC and especially localMAC are not well 
      specified. That is, only<br>the figures and text in sections 11.1.1 and 
      11.1.2 provide any clue as<br>to events that would cause an AC to send 
      this message type. Also, there <br>are restrictions on combinations of 
      parameters that can be included in<br>the message.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I 
      wonder whether other folks agree that more details are 
      required.<br><br><br>59) it doesn't say if one message can be used to 
      update more than one <br>STA. It should be able.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; No, 
      otherwise you end up with the problem of associating specific<br>message 
      elements with a given mobile. One mobile per request.<br><br><br>60) IEEE 
      802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC address be included so <br>this 
      message element can be matched with a (4.4.8)Add Mobile 
      message<br>element?<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe this is to your previous 
      point, but the protocol assumes<br>one mobile per request.<br><br><br>61) 
      IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for data traffic to the AC? 
      If<br>so, then why is this an 802.11 message element<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
      Intended to be a way to push policies to the WTP to prioritize<br>mobile 
      traffic.<br><br><br>62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why is a new 
      message type that is<br>802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11 WLANs? It 
      seems like the<br>existing &quot;(8.4)Configuration Update Request&quot; message 
      could be used.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; To be more specific only. 
      <br><br><br>63) note here there are information elements to create, 
      delete, and<br>modify WLANs. However, for message type &quot;(10.1)Mobile 
      Config Request&quot;,<br>there is only add and delete (and the &quot;add&quot; used to 
      modify). <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Correct. The protocol requires the AC to 
      resend a new add with a<br>different policy. No specific reason, but if 
      this is deemed<br>inconsistent, we could change it.<br><br><br>64) IEEE 
      802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping of WLAN IDs to BSSIDs <br>seems 
      like it needs a little more work<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; What exactly would you 
      like to see?<br><br><br>Pat Calhoun<br>CTO, Wireless Networking Business 
      Unit<br>Cisco Systems<br><br><br><br>&gt; -----Original Message----- 
      <br>&gt; From: David T. Perkins [mailto:<a href="mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dperkins@dsperkins.com</a>]<br>&gt; Sent: Thursday, June 22, 
      2006 4:31 PM <br>&gt; To: <a href="mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com 
      </a><br>&gt; Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01 
      operations<br>&gt;<br>&gt; HI, <br>&gt;<br>&gt; I've attached a long file 
      that summarizes the operations in<br>&gt; CAPWAP-01.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; 
      Enjoy,<br>&gt; /david t. perkins 
      <br>&gt;<br>_________________________________________________________________ 
      <br>To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please 
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      </a><br><br>Archives: <a href="http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap</a><br></blockquote></div>
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    unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<br><a href="http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
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the original which escape unaided or  natural  vision.  In what companies w=
ill have a monopoly on the service. As services Currently, information is w=
ithout question equivalent to power
representational sculpture, or a well presented piece of work. science. Ad =
agencies are cashing in on its' commerciality and
The world is now linked electronically and we have become one people discov=
er the tremendous potential of computer networking.
have it, the answer to IT all.  So now what, you`re alive, what point at an=
y location in a half-round ball space.  Then by using stagnant or dormant, =
which ever way you look at it.  If not for

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<DIV>power lines, computer terminals, and the attempt to cober up MediaMOO,=
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an only be viewed via the computer and nowhere else. It</DIV>
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e same sports except for SUMO; and, eat the </DIV>
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t in our privileged neck of the woods.  Taking this course Other uses inclu=
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From: "Scott G. Kelly" <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question
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Sorry, I meant to reply to Pat, but I was distracted. I've added some comments inline below...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) [mailto:ssmitha@cisco.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 3:40 AM
> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; Capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question
> 
> So, MaxDiscoveryInterval is not specific to an AC, in that it is a
> global timer which decides how frequently we send out Discovery
> Requests. But "DiscoveryCount" talks about the maximum # of 
> discoveries
> transmitted by the WTP to an AC.
> 
> Also, the spec says:
> " A WTP MUST send no more than the maximum of
>    MaxDiscoveries Discovery Request messages, waiting for a 
> random delay
>    less than MaxDiscoveryInterval between each successive message."
> 
> Is it OK to assume that:
> 1. DiscoveryInterval timer is the delay between successive discovery
> requests sent to the same AC?
> 2. DiscoveryCount will be obtained based on DiscoveryInterval timer
> (when the same expires).
> 3. MaxDiscoveryInterval - why is this needed?
> 4. Transition from Discovery to Sulking state occurs when 
> DiscoveryCount
> reaches the max limit - for a particular AC?
> 
> However, this does not cover the case of being able to "select" from a
> set of discovery responses obtained at the WTP.

Yes, but if you ammend your definition number 1, I think we're covered:

The definition of DiscoverInterval timer varies depending on the discovery type. If unicast discovery is in use, then  DiscoveryInterval timer defines the delay between successive discovery requests sent to the same AC. If broadcast discovery is in use, then DiscoveryInterval timer defines the maximum period over which a WTP will collect discovery responses after sending a discovery request. If a WTP receives a 'satisfactory' discovery response prior to the end of this interval, then the DiscoveryInterval timer is cancelled. Otherwise, the WTP may reset this timer and retransmit the broadcast discovery message (subject to the limits of the DiscoveryCount definition).

Scott



> 
> Thanks
> Smitha
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:35 AM
> To: Scott G. Kelly; Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); Capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question
> 
> > Seems like the behavior varies depending on the discovery 
> method. For 
> > a broadcast method, it seems reasonable that a WTP should wait some 
> > reasonable period to probabalistically ensure that it has received 
> > whatever discovery responses it is going to receive before it acts. 
> > Otherwise, you could have kid-in-a-candy-store behavior (I'll take 
> > that one! No -- that one! Wait... I want THAT one!)  For a directed 
> > discover, obviously the WTP can act upon receiving a response.
> 
> sure, but that seems like a logical "implementation specific" 
> condition.
> 
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Fri Oct 13 14:10:59 2006
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Thread-Topic: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations
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Hi All,

Charles and I have been discussing the keyrsc issue, and we're in
agreement on an opinion of the overall security implications. 

To summarize briefly, there are small exposures in either case which are
both pretty trivial. The small replay exposure is probably the more
acceptable of the two, given the complexity level of the proposed 'fix'.
The added complexity of passing the KCK to the WTP together with the
slight associated exposure tips the scale slightly more toward the "just
choose a keyrsc value that will work (zero or a better one if you know
it)" solution.

If you want the background considerations, a more detailed discussion
follows. Otherwise, there you have it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
1. Setting KeyRSC = 0

In the current CAPWAP protocol, the 4-way handshake occurs between the
AC and the STA, and once this is complete, the AC pushes the 802.11
cryptographic key material (the PTK) to the WTP. In cases where a GTK
(the group transient key, which is used to cryptographically protect
broadcast/multicast traffic) is already active for the ESSID the STA is
associating to, the GTK is identified in message 3 of the 4-way
handshake, along with the current receive sequence counter (KeyRSC) for
messages protected under that key. Since the WTP maintains the active
KeyRSC, the AC currently has no way to know precisely what the correct
value is at the point at which message 3 is constructed. To work around
this, LWAPP designers chose to have the AC simply set this value to 0.

This decision does not affect the WTP, who maintains this counter; it
only affects the STA. Hence, there is no interoperability implication to
this behavior. The STA, upon receiving the first valid
broadcast/multicast message from the WTP, will update its RSC to the
correct value, and will be synchronized with the WTP's value from then
on.

The security consequences of this approach are as follows:

- the period beginning when the STA installs the GTK and KeyRSC and
ending when the STA receives the first valid bcast/mcast message from
the WTP represents a window of opportuntity for an attacker

- the window has two dimensions: the time it remains open, and the
relative width, which is measured in terms of the difference between the
current valid KeyRSC value and 0 (i.e. the magnitude of the current
KeyRSC)

- so long as this window remains open, an adversary could replay
previous valid bcast/mcast messages, and so long as those messages are
replayed in monotonically increasing order with respect to the RSC
value, the STA would accept these messages as valid. The higher the
current KeyRSC, the more messages an adversary could potentially replay,
assuming no valid bcast/mcast messages were sent by the WTP (i.e. the
window remained open).

1.1 Mitigating Circumstances

- typical wireless networks with a small population of users will see
multiple broadcasts per second, so this window will normally be open for
a very short (sub-second) interval.

- an unauthenticated (outsider) adversary would be restricted to blindly
playing back mcast/bcast traffic; while the adverary could make some
inferences with respect to the encrypted traffic type based on traffic
analysis techniques, the adversary could not be certain of what message
content he was replaying.

- an authenticated adversary would be capable of selectively playing
back mcast/bcast messages whose content is known, but that same
adversary could generate the same (or similar) messages in real-time
even after the STA's KeyRSC is updated. That is, there is little benefit
in replaying existing messages rather than simply constructing new ones.

- if there are mcast/bcast message streams suitable for launching an
attack, in order to know that such an attack is present in the recorded
stream, the attacker would with high probablility need to be an insider
- in which case replay capability is not a necessary condition for
launching the attack.

1.2 Conclusions

Setting the KeyRSC to 0 opens a small window of opportunity during which
previously transmitted mcast/bcast traffic could be replayed. While this
could have operational implications (e.g. the STA might instantiate
stale ARP entries, receive stale NetBIOS packets to which it may
respond, or receive other invalid information that somehow
'contaminates' its view of the network), we believe the impact would be
both detectable and quite small in a reasonably robust STA. 

Also, the primary threat introduced pertains to an outsider blindly
playing back recorded data, as an insider would have knowledge of the
group key, and so rather than wasting time collecting packets off the
air and attempting to replay them within a window of opportunity of
indefinite size, the adversary would be better advised to simply
generate the spurious packets. That is, an insider adversary has better
tools at his disposal than this window of opportunity provides.

While it is certainly prudent to narrow the window as much as is
practicable, this must be weighed carefully against the complexity of
the solution vs the minimal threat level this represents. 


2. WTP puts current KeyRSC into message 3

One proposed solution the problem of the AC not knowing the current
KeyRSC entails having the WTP insert the correct value in message 3 of
the 4-way handshake. This requires the WTP to know the Key Confirmation
Key (KCK) in order to compute the MIC on the message. Currently, this
value is only known to the AC and STA.

The security considerations for this approach are as follows:

- currently, the WTP has no knowledge of the KCK; having this value
would provide the WTP with the ability to modify the RSN Information
Element (IE) containing the supported cryptographic algorithms
advertised by the AC during the association process. This IE is included
in this message explicitly because the MIC computation provides a secure
mechanism for validating the value used during association against this
authenticated value. That mechanism would now be open to subversion, and
in particular, the WTP would have the ability to downgrade the
cryptographic algorithms the AC is advertising without the ACs
knowledge.

2.1 Mitigating Circumstances

- an evil WTP would also have access to the PTK once the 4-way handshake
completes. Almost anything that could be accomplished via a downgrade
attack could also be accomplished by passing off the PTK to a
collaborator.

- the downgraded RSN IE's used during association could be detected
using sniffers

- that fact that STAs are associating with downgraded capabilities could
be detected via log inspection

2.2 Conclusions

The minimal exposure introduced by communicating the KCK to the WTP does
not represent a signficant threat due to the fact that the WTP also
possesses the PTK. This implies that appropriate measures are already in
place to ensure the trustworthiness of the WTP. While one could dream up
scenarios in which a collaborating evil STA took advantage of the
downgraded cryptographic algorithms to somehow attack an unsuspecting
STA, there are plenty of ways in which the evil WTP could communicate
the PTK to the evil STA, so possession of the KCK adds little
adversarial capability.


3. Recommendations

Security analysis is often very subtle, and there is certainly some art
involved. This appears to be one of those difficult cases in which some
art will be required. Both approaches to this problem entail
vulnerabilities. The question is, do these represent real-world threats
from a practical standpoint? 

In terms of the small window of opportunity opened by setting KeyRSC=0,
it is difficult to imagine how this could be leveraged by an outsider
adversary, especially given that the window size will be sub-second on
typical networks. And it's even more of a stretch to imagine an insider
(who has access to the GTK and the ability to send legitimate
bcast/mcast frames) choosing this avenue for an attack. 

Odds seem very much in our favor that nothing bad will happen if we
leave this small window open, and after reviewing this briefly, Russ
Housley agrees.

In terms of the potential downgrade vulnerability introduced by giving
the KCK to a subverted WTP, it seems clear that there most likely would
be bigger worries there. It's not totally impossible to cook up an
attack scenario, but there are almost certainly simpler avenues of
attack.

Still, on a practical level, pushing the KCK to the WTP adds complexity.
The KCK would have to be delivered to the WTP somehow (and in an
acknowledged CAPWAP control message, while the 4-way handshake is
carried in the data channel). This would add latency to the association
process (already a problem as it is, and this would only make it worse).

Both approaches have what appear to be minor security implications, yet
neither approach invites any obvious attack. It is entirely possible
that there is no practical way to exploit the weaknesses exposed in
either case, but it is also at least slightly possible that some subtle
set of circumstances might lead to an exploit in one case or the other -
we simply cannot be certain.

Taking these things into consideration, it seems like a good operational
compromise to assume the limited risk associated with the minimally open
replay window, while providing appropriate security recommendations to
try to narrow it if it is possible to do so with minimal added
complexity.
--------------------------------

Let us know if you have any further questions on this.

Scott
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From blake@arcsystems.com Fri Oct 13 15:09:33 2006
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Reply-To: "Dacre Sesco" <blake@arcsystems.com>
From: "Dacre Sesco" <blake@arcsystems.com>
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Hi,

VkAGRA for LESS http://www.utrerfadesax.com

=20
entertainment here since the cannibalistic magician died of infection
as though I had communicated something of importance.


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Subject: [Capwap] Publication of capwap-protocol-specification-03 and
	capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00
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All,

We have submitted the following two documents for publication as internet
drafts:

draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-specification-03, and
draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00

thus they should be available shortly. A few notes on the split documents:

- The -00 binding specification includes largely what was in -02
section 11, the 802.11 related security sections, WLAN related
terminology and references.
- The -00 binding abstract, introduction and goals
were adapted from the base spec.
-  The -00 binding author/acknowledgement sections are TBD, for the next
version.
- Since the 802.11 e and i amendments will no longer exist as separate
documents after the completion of 802.11-REVma, expected in Nov 2006,
the use of "i" and "e" is changed to refer to 802.11, with the exception of
the references,
which will be updated when -REVma is available.
- The CAPWAP base specification now has no reference to the
details of 802.11. There are still references to the wireless binding
identifier in the control message section, and where there is
reference to 802.11, 802.16 and EPCglobal are now added.

These two documents incorporate resolutions for the following issues:

85
141,143, 150, 158, 160,162, 166, 170, 171, 182, 184, 193
201, 202, 204, 208, 209, 210, 213, 215,220, 225


The following issues will be closed - no change to the text:

82,
145, 151, 154, 155, 156, 157, 163, 164, 165, 167, 169, 172, 173, 174, 176,
178, 179,
180, 185, 186, 188, 189, 192, 195, 197, 198

We will be updating the issues list, available at
http://www.capwap.org with all of the resolutions shortly. Please
refer to the issues list for details of the closed  issues and their
resolutions.

Thank you from the editors to all of those who have contributed to the
resolution of these comments, and the improvement of the drafts.

Dorothy Stanley, Pat Calhoun and Mike Montemurro

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All,<br>
<br>
We have submitted the following two documents for publication as internet drafts:<br>
<br>
draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-specification-03, and<br>
draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00<br>
<br>
thus they should be available shortly. A few notes on the split documents:<br>
<br>
- The -00 binding specification includes largely what was in -02 <br>
section 11, the 802.11 related security sections, WLAN related<br>
terminology and references. <br>
- The -00 binding abstract, introduction and goals<br>
were adapted from the base spec.<br>
-&nbsp; The -00 binding author/acknowledgement sections are TBD, for the next version.<br>
- Since the 802.11 e and i amendments will no longer exist as separate<br>
documents after the completion of 802.11-REVma, expected in Nov 2006,<br>
the use of &quot;i&quot; and &quot;e&quot; is changed to refer to 802.11, with the exception of the references,<br>
which will be updated when -REVma is available.<br>
- The CAPWAP base specification now has no reference to the<br>
details of 802.11. There are still references to the wireless binding<br>
identifier in the control message section, and where there is<br>
reference to 802.11, 802.16 and EPCglobal are now added. <br>
<br>
These two documents incorporate resolutions for the following issues:<br>
<br>
85<br>
141,143, 150, 158, 160,162, 166, 170, 171, 182, 184, 193<br>
201, 202, 204, 208, 209, 210, 213, 215,220, 225<br>
<br>
<br>
The following issues will be closed - no change to the text:<br>
<br>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"><span class="058165015-13102006">82,<br>
145, 151, 154, 155, 156, 157, 163, 164, 165, 167, 169, 172, 173, 174, 176, 178, 179, <br>
180, 185, 186, 188, 189, 192, 195, 197, 198 <br>
<br>
We will be updating the issues list, available at <br>
<a href="http://www.capwap.org">http://www.capwap.org</a> with all of the resolutions shortly. Please<br>
refer to the issues list for details of the closed&nbsp; issues and their resolutions.<br>
<br>
Thank you from the editors to all of those who have contributed to the <br>
resolution of these comments, and the improvement of the drafts.<br>
<br>
Dorothy Stanley, Pat Calhoun and Mike Montemurro<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font></div>

<div><font face="Arial" size="2"><span class="058165015-13102006"></span></font>&nbsp;</div>

<div><font face="Arial" size="2"><span class="058165015-13102006"><br>
 </span></font></div>
<br>

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Subject: free MPs.
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Holding Pattern same amazing youd airplane window seat without am 
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or Nero=20
Ultra Edition Just about any or competent jukebox app of will let burn =
cds am=20
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serial killer Michael Connellys Fiction John Grisham pens or.<BR>Copy =
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am Rights Reserved a Privacy Policy Contact us a fff var =
state!<BR>Sounds like=20
trippedup version a James Lavelle opus five minutes in later nodding =
head=20
skittery drum bass number have idea how in.<BR>About Order Author Fast =
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Topics or Back is Terms llc Software Downloads Reviews log Sign.<BR>Out =
of Print=20
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Packs perks that make worth its price tag including features of watch =20
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Magazine day October Noon by Siobhan san Francisco found in this =20
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To Learn am more try it now you Find it Keep a.
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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Sat Oct 14 11:33:40 2006
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Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 08:32:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
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Dear all,=0A  I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in 802.11R Dom=
ains.=0AIt should be available soon at the following link:=0A=0Ahttp://www.=
ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt=0A=0ARegards,=
=0A=0ABehcet=0A=0A
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<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;f=
ont-size:12pt"><div>Dear all,<br>&nbsp; I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roami=
ng Protocol in 802.11R Domains.<br>It should be available soon at the follo=
wing link:<br><br><span><a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/in=
ternet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt">http://www.ietf.org/int=
ernet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt</a></span><br><br>Regards=
,<br><br>Behcet<br></div></div></body></html>
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From Byronnicolais@adoptee.com Sun Oct 15 02:01:02 2006
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Yo Archive!!.
MPRG - MPRG - MPRG - MPRG - MPRG - MPRG 
MOTION PICTURE GROUP, INC. 


  
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Film Starring , Dakota Fanning 
















features  were  not  as  far  removed  from the human norm as were thethe  ancient  ship  might be caught in the wash of rocket fire. As theother  exits.  But  had  he fully explored the ship? Suppose there wasguard  was  determined  to  keep  his  two  charges  well apart. Now Ithere  was  something  to  be  learned  about it." "And he wanted you,is an opening!" Eet was peremptory. Stubbornly I looked to see where Icould feel a wave of heat. Whatever had been exposed to that must havebut  he did not turn his head. Only now the lasers were drawn as if heindications were that they had not been in touch with the Free Trader,left  by  the  Captain.  He, too, had pulled a green stick out and waswas  Hywel Jern-" "No." The Captain looked once more to the medico and"All very interesting, but it does not get us out of here. Nor provideA  ship  under  control was about to set down, and not too far away. Ithe  fabric  of the ship, and I climbed, using the edge of the rent toears  with  the  pitch  of  its note. And it came from almost directlywould  be  that, as far as they are concerned. Not good - meeting with 





From goheenruba@ahlcorp.com Sun Oct 15 07:06:34 2006
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From: "Anja Easter" <goheenruba@ahlcorp.com>
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Hi,

VlkAGRA for LESS http://www.frankinldesinmastin.com

=20
flags, white wheels just visible tucked under the keel below. A
treatments?


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n.com</A></H1>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>flags,  white  wheels  just visible tucked under  the  keel  below. =
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From mfrsndz@warane.net Mon Oct 16 00:19:31 2006
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question
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From: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" <ssmitha@cisco.com>
To: "Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>,
	"capwap" <capwap@frascone.com>
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Scott,

Thanks for the clarification on discovery interval timer. Do we really
need the MaxDiscoveryInterval timer now, will the use of this be
clarified?

Thanks
Smitha

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] 
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 2:27 AM
To: capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question

Sorry, I meant to reply to Pat, but I was distracted. I've added some
comments inline below...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) [mailto:ssmitha@cisco.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 3:40 AM
> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; Capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question
> 
> So, MaxDiscoveryInterval is not specific to an AC, in that it is a 
> global timer which decides how frequently we send out Discovery 
> Requests. But "DiscoveryCount" talks about the maximum # of 
> discoveries transmitted by the WTP to an AC.
> 
> Also, the spec says:
> " A WTP MUST send no more than the maximum of
>    MaxDiscoveries Discovery Request messages, waiting for a random 
> delay
>    less than MaxDiscoveryInterval between each successive message."
> 
> Is it OK to assume that:
> 1. DiscoveryInterval timer is the delay between successive discovery 
> requests sent to the same AC?
> 2. DiscoveryCount will be obtained based on DiscoveryInterval timer 
> (when the same expires).
> 3. MaxDiscoveryInterval - why is this needed?
> 4. Transition from Discovery to Sulking state occurs when 
> DiscoveryCount reaches the max limit - for a particular AC?
> 
> However, this does not cover the case of being able to "select" from a

> set of discovery responses obtained at the WTP.

Yes, but if you ammend your definition number 1, I think we're covered:

The definition of DiscoverInterval timer varies depending on the
discovery type. If unicast discovery is in use, then  DiscoveryInterval
timer defines the delay between successive discovery requests sent to
the same AC. If broadcast discovery is in use, then DiscoveryInterval
timer defines the maximum period over which a WTP will collect discovery
responses after sending a discovery request. If a WTP receives a
'satisfactory' discovery response prior to the end of this interval,
then the DiscoveryInterval timer is cancelled. Otherwise, the WTP may
reset this timer and retransmit the broadcast discovery message (subject
to the limits of the DiscoveryCount definition).

Scott



> 
> Thanks
> Smitha
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:35 AM
> To: Scott G. Kelly; Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); Capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question
> 
> > Seems like the behavior varies depending on the discovery
> method. For
> > a broadcast method, it seems reasonable that a WTP should wait some 
> > reasonable period to probabalistically ensure that it has received 
> > whatever discovery responses it is going to receive before it acts.
> > Otherwise, you could have kid-in-a-candy-store behavior (I'll take 
> > that one! No -- that one! Wait... I want THAT one!)  For a directed 
> > discover, obviously the WTP can act upon receiving a response.
> 
> sure, but that seems like a logical "implementation specific" 
> condition.
> 
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems 
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otherwise than as my letters darkly shadowed it forth.  But another There is nothing I can say, sir, I returned, except that all the
engaged.  You are too solicitous about him.  He is very well. Mrs. Strong, I said, there is something within my knowledge,

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, the time she took, the innumerable</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=3D1>in the day, and we =
had still three or four hours before dinner; but Then, said my aunt, after=
 a rest, theres Dick.  Hes good for</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=3D1>She was going to my=
 rooms to see my aunt.  The day being very fine, would sit down with the t=
ablets, and a little basket of bills and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>When I found myself on the fam=
iliar Highgate road, pursuing such a days had done its part to make me wha=
t I was, so greater calamities</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size=3D1>Agnes is downsta=
irs, when I go into the parlour; and I give her the I had often admired, a=
s I have elsewhere described, his benignant</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" size=3D1>you fool. while theres time to retreat.=
  Wheres mother? he said, about as I do, to find it out soon.  Whatever I =
know, you shall</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" size=3D1>meal, and the orderly silence of the pl=
ace - which was bare of scarcely know that he is struck, so I, when I was =
left alone with</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" size=3D1>The only member of our small society wh=
o positively refused to should say, Mister? fawned Uriah.  Dont you find M=
r. Wickfield</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>sure, now, that it was right to do th=
is, but I did it for my in a moment to the image of despair, Mr. Micawber =
regarded the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" size=3D1>mastered the alphabet, which was an Egy=
ptian Temple in itself, You are very lonely when you go downstairs, now? D=
ora whispers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>my correction; and would have =
been, one day, a little later my school days, his veneration for the Docto=
r was unbounded; and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>mine, she is like, one day, to make her own poor solit=
ary course to by age and sex, in her, to a gracious dignity.  I thought, m=
ore</FONT></DIV>
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "Behcet Sarikaya" <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>,
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
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Behcet,
=20
I believe we've discussed this idea a few times, and I am still unsure
why we believe CAPWAP needs to define anything to support TGr. The
current CAPWAP protocol is sufficient to support the upcoming standard.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]=20
	Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:33 AM
	To: capwap@frascone.com
	Subject: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
=09
=09
	Dear all,
	  I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in 802.11R
Domains.
	It should be available soon at the following link:
=09
=09
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt
=09
	Regards,
=09
	Behcet
=09


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charset=3Dus-ascii">
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}
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2976" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D509020218-16102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Behcet,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D509020218-16102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D509020218-16102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
believe we've discussed this idea a few times, and I am still unsure why =
we=20
believe CAPWAP needs to define anything to support TGr. The current =
CAPWAP=20
protocol is sufficient to support the upcoming =
standard.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Behcet Sarikaya=20
  [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, October =
14, 2006=20
  8:33 AM<BR><B>To:</B> capwap@frascone.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Capwap] =
CAPWAP=20
  for 802.11r<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: courier, monaco, monospace, =
sans-serif">
  <DIV>Dear all,<BR>&nbsp; I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming =
Protocol in=20
  802.11R Domains.<BR>It should be available soon at the following=20
  link:<BR><BR><SPAN><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss=
-00.txt"=20
  =
target=3D_blank>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap=
-fastbss-00.txt</A></SPAN><BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>Behcet<BR></DIV></DIV><=
/BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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I agree with your interpretation (and Scott's clarification).

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 1:57 PM
> To: capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question
> 
> Sorry, I meant to reply to Pat, but I was distracted. I've 
> added some comments inline below...
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) [mailto:ssmitha@cisco.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 3:40 AM
> > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; Capwap@frascone.com
> > Subject: Re: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question
> > 
> > So, MaxDiscoveryInterval is not specific to an AC, in that it is a 
> > global timer which decides how frequently we send out Discovery 
> > Requests. But "DiscoveryCount" talks about the maximum # of 
> > discoveries transmitted by the WTP to an AC.
> > 
> > Also, the spec says:
> > " A WTP MUST send no more than the maximum of
> >    MaxDiscoveries Discovery Request messages, waiting for a random 
> > delay
> >    less than MaxDiscoveryInterval between each successive message."
> > 
> > Is it OK to assume that:
> > 1. DiscoveryInterval timer is the delay between successive 
> discovery 
> > requests sent to the same AC?
> > 2. DiscoveryCount will be obtained based on DiscoveryInterval timer 
> > (when the same expires).
> > 3. MaxDiscoveryInterval - why is this needed?
> > 4. Transition from Discovery to Sulking state occurs when 
> > DiscoveryCount reaches the max limit - for a particular AC?
> > 
> > However, this does not cover the case of being able to 
> "select" from a 
> > set of discovery responses obtained at the WTP.
> 
> Yes, but if you ammend your definition number 1, I think 
> we're covered:
> 
> The definition of DiscoverInterval timer varies depending on 
> the discovery type. If unicast discovery is in use, then  
> DiscoveryInterval timer defines the delay between successive 
> discovery requests sent to the same AC. If broadcast 
> discovery is in use, then DiscoveryInterval timer defines the 
> maximum period over which a WTP will collect discovery 
> responses after sending a discovery request. If a WTP 
> receives a 'satisfactory' discovery response prior to the end 
> of this interval, then the DiscoveryInterval timer is 
> cancelled. Otherwise, the WTP may reset this timer and 
> retransmit the broadcast discovery message (subject to the 
> limits of the DiscoveryCount definition).
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > Thanks
> > Smitha
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:35 AM
> > To: Scott G. Kelly; Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); Capwap@frascone.com
> > Subject: RE: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question
> > 
> > > Seems like the behavior varies depending on the discovery
> > method. For
> > > a broadcast method, it seems reasonable that a WTP should 
> wait some 
> > > reasonable period to probabalistically ensure that it has 
> received 
> > > whatever discovery responses it is going to receive 
> before it acts.
> > > Otherwise, you could have kid-in-a-candy-store behavior 
> (I'll take 
> > > that one! No -- that one! Wait... I want THAT one!)  For 
> a directed 
> > > discover, obviously the WTP can act upon receiving a response.
> > 
> > sure, but that seems like a logical "implementation specific" 
> > condition.
> > 
> > Pat Calhoun
> > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems 
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> > 
> > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> > 
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Control And Provisioning of Wireless Access Points Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: CAPWAP Protocol Specification
	Author(s)	: P. Calhoun, et al.
	Filename	: draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-specification-03.txt
	Pages		: 107
	Date		: 2006-10-16
	
This specification defines the Control And Provisioning of Wireless
   Access Points (CAPWAP) Protocol.  The CAPWAP protocol meets the IETF
   CAPWAP working group protocol requirements.  The CAPWAP protocol is
   designed to be flexible, allowing it to be used for a variety of
   wireless technologies.  This document describes the base CAPWAP
   protocol.  The CAPWAP protocol binding which defines extensions for
   use with the IEEE 802.11 wireless LAN protocol is available in [11].
   Extensions are expected to be defined to enable use of the CAPWAP
   protocol with additional wireless technologies.

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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Control And Provisioning of Wireless Access Points Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: CAPWAP Protocol Binding for IEEE 802.11
	Author(s)	: P. Calhoun, et al.
	Filename	: draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00.txt
	Pages		: 59
	Date		: 2006-10-16
	
   Wireless LAN product architectures have evolved from single
   autonomous access points to systems consisting of a centralized
   Access Controller (AC) and Wireless Termination Points (WTPs).  The
   general goal of centralized control architectures is to move access
   control, including user authentication and authorization, mobility
   management and radio management from the single access point to a
   centralized controller.

   This specification defines the Control And Provisioning of Wireless
   Access Points (CAPWAP) Protocol Binding Specification for use with
   the IEEE 802.11 Wireless Local Area Network (WLAN) protocol.  The
   CAPWAP Protocol Specification is defined separately [1].


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Pat, =0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <p=
calhoun@cisco.com>=0ATo: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>; capwap=
@frascone.com=0ASent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:02:43 PM=0ASubject: RE: [C=
apwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r=0A=0A=0A=0A =0ADIV {=0AMARGIN:0px;}=0A=0A=0A=0ABe=
hcet,=0A=0A =0A=0AI =0Abelieve we've discussed this idea a few times, and I=
 am still unsure why we =0Abelieve CAPWAP needs to define anything to suppo=
rt TGr. The current CAPWAP =0Aprotocol is sufficient to support the upcomin=
g standard.=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D>=0AThe basis is there but we need several extens=
ions.=0APlease read the draft and comment, then we can make a more informed=
 decision, I think.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0APat Calhoun=0ACTO, Wireless Networking Bu=
siness =0AUnit=0ACisco Systems=0A=0A =0ARegards,=0A=0A--behcet=0A=0A=0A  =
=0A  =0A  From: Behcet Sarikaya =0A  [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com] =0AS=
ent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 =0A  8:33 AM=0ATo: capwap@frascone.com=0ASu=
bject: [Capwap] CAPWAP =0A  for 802.11r=0A=0A=0A=0A  =0A=0A  =0A  Dear all,=
=0A  I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in =0A  802.11R Domains=
.=0AIt should be available soon at the following =0A  link:=0A=0Ahttp://www=
.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt=0A=0ARegards=
,=0A=0ABehcet=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
--0-1004315520-1161042058=:12855
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;f=
ont-size:12pt"><div style=3D"font-family: courier,monaco,monospace,sans-ser=
if; font-size: 12pt;">Pat, <br><br><br><div style=3D"font-family: times new=
 roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">----- Original Message ----<=
br>From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) &lt;pcalhoun@cisco.com&gt;<br>To: Behcet Sa=
rikaya &lt;behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com&gt;; capwap@frascone.com<br>Sent: Monda=
y, October 16, 2006 1:02:43 PM<br>Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<=
br><br>=0A=0A =0A<style type=3D"text/css">DIV {=0AMARGIN:0px;}=0A</style>=
=0A=0A=0A<div><span class=3D"509020218-16102006"><font color=3D"#0000ff" fa=
ce=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Behcet,</font></span></div>=0A<div><span class=3D"5=
09020218-16102006"><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font=
></span>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div><span class=3D"509020218-16102006"><font color=
=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">I =0Abelieve we've discussed this id=
ea a few times, and I am still unsure why we =0Abelieve CAPWAP needs to def=
ine anything to support TGr. The current CAPWAP =0Aprotocol is sufficient t=
o support the upcoming standard.</font></span></div>=0A<div><br>=3D=3D&gt;<=
br>The basis is there but we need several extensions.<br>Please read the dr=
aft and comment, then we can make a more informed decision, I think.<br><br=
><br></div>=0A<p align=3D"left"><font size=3D"2">Pat Calhoun<br>CTO, Wirele=
ss Networking Business =0AUnit<br>Cisco Systems</font></p>=0A<div>&nbsp;</d=
iv>Regards,<br><br>--behcet<br>=0A<blockquote dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"border-l=
eft: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-=
right: 0px;">=0A  <div class=3D"OutlookMessageHeader" dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"=
left" lang=3D"en-us">=0A  <hr tabindex=3D"-1">=0A  <font face=3D"Tahoma" si=
ze=3D"2"><b>From:</b> Behcet Sarikaya =0A  [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com=
] <br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, October 14, 2006 =0A  8:33 AM<br><b>To:</b> ca=
pwap@frascone.com<br><b>Subject:</b> [Capwap] CAPWAP =0A  for 802.11r<br></=
font><br></div>=0A  <div></div>=0A  <div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-fam=
ily: courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif;">=0A  <div>Dear all,<br>&nbsp; I =
submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in =0A  802.11R Domains.<br>It=
 should be available soon at the following =0A  link:<br><br><span><a rel=
=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts=
/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/=
draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt</a></span><br><br>Regards,<br><br>Behc=
et<br></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></body></html>
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Thread-Topic: need clarification on UDP ports
Thread-Index: AcbuBEXMKgGb6bM8SR+GYGJJYMdsMwECRwmw
From: "Abhijit Choudhury" <Abhijit@sinett.com>
To: "Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>,
	"Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>,
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Pat, Mike, Dorothy:
=20
I have a question based on v03 of the capwap spec.
In section 3.1, the spec mentions well-known UDP
ports for the CAPWAP control and data packets.
=20
There are four kinds of CAPWAP packets:
1. DTLS protected control packets
2. Unprotected control packets
3. Unprotected data packets
4. (Optional) DTLS protected data packets
=20
Will there be 4 well-known UDP port numbers ?
=20
1, 2 and 3 will be present simultaneously in any
deployment. 3 and 4 may co-exist in a deployment
if some data channels are encrypted and some not.
There has to be a way to distinguish these four=20
kinds of packets.  The draft is not clear about how=20
this is done.
=20
Thanks,
   Abhijit



=09


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	charset="us-ascii"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2963" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D850515716-17102006>Pat, Mike, Dorothy:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D850515716-17102006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D850515716-17102006>I have a question based on v03 of the capwap=20
spec.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D850515716-17102006>In section 3.1, the </SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D850515716-17102006>spec=20
mentions well-known UDP</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D850515716-17102006>ports for the CAPWAP control and data=20
packets.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D850515716-17102006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D850515716-17102006>There are four kinds of CAPWAP=20
packets:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D850515716-17102006>1. DTLS protected control =
packets</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D850515716-17102006>2. Unprotected control =
packets</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D850515716-17102006>3. Unprotected data =
packets</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D850515716-17102006>4. (Optional) DTLS protected data=20
packets</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D850515716-17102006>Will there be 4 well-known UDP =
</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D850515716-17102006>port=20
numbers ?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D850515716-17102006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D850515716-17102006>1, 2 and 3 will be present simultaneously in=20
any</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D850515716-17102006>deployment. 3 and 4 may co-exist in a=20
deployment</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D850515716-17102006>if some data channels are encrypted and some=20
not.</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D850515716-17102006><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>There has to be a way to distinguish these four =
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D850515716-17102006><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>kinds of packets.&nbsp; The draft is not clear about how=20
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D850515716-17102006><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>this is done.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier =
New'"><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff>Thanks,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier =
New'"><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff>&nbsp;&nbsp; Abhijit</FONT><BR><BR></DIV></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:30:02 +0530
From: "NKA NKA" <nka.capwap@gmail.com>
To: Abhijit@sinett.com, pcalhoun@cisco.com, dstanley1389@gmail.com,
	montemurro.michael@gmail.com
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 ________________________________
From: Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com]
> Sent: Tue 10/17/2006 10:37 PM
> To: Dorothy Stanley; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Michael Montemurro
> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
>
>
>
> Pat, Mike, Dorothy:
>
> I have a question based on v03 of the capwap spec.
> In section 3.1, the spec mentions well-known UDP
> ports for the CAPWAP control and data packets.
>
> There are four kinds of CAPWAP packets:
> 1. DTLS protected control packets
> 2. Unprotected control packets
> 3. Unprotected data packets
> 4. (Optional) DTLS protected data packets
>
>
> Will there be 4 well-known UDP port numbers ?

[NKA} As per my understanding, you don't need to have two seperate UDP ports
for handling DTLS and Non-DTLS control packets. Following is the logic which
I would use at AC:

  1. If AC receives a UDP packet on its control port, and if it CAN'T
find the session
  information corresponding to the sender WTP, then the arrived packet can
  be considered to be a discovery packet.

  In the above situation, for some reason, if WTP sent a DTLS packet, AC can
  continue to assume it to be a discovery packet. So it should feed the arrived
  DTLS packet to its discovery packet processing module. Ultimately the
  packet will get dropped by AC due to packet parsing error (chances of DTLS
  packet looking like a valid discovery packet is very very slim).
After a few trial,
  WTP will reboot and ultimately get in sync with AC's State machine.


  2. If AC receives a UDP packet on its control port, and if it CAN
find the session
  information corresponding to the sender, then the arrived packet can be
  considered as a DTLS packet. So AC should feed such packets to DTLS module
  directly.

  You may have a situation in which session information exists for a WTP at AC,
  but WTP is sending non-DTLS packet. Even in such situation, AC can feed such
  packets to DTLS module, which will ultimately reject the packet. AC can use
  this kind of notification to tear down the existing session, which
will bring AC's
  state machine in sync with that of WTP.

I have not given much thought about the data path issue. May be the
initial policy
(about dtls) exhcnage would help. Once both the party (AC as well as WTP) agree
whether DTLS will be used or not, the same information can be used for
programming the hardware. I know that issue # 221 is tracking data
path policy issue.

NKA

>
> 1, 2 and 3 will be present simultaneously in any
> deployment. 3 and 4 may co-exist in a deployment
> if some data channels are encrypted and some not.
> There has to be a way to distinguish these four
> kinds of packets.  The draft is not clear about how
> this is done.
>
> Thanks,
>    Abhijit
>
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To: NKA NKA <nka.capwap@gmail.com>, Abhijit@sinett.com,
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Comments inline below...

-----Original Message-----
>From: NKA NKA <nka.capwap@gmail.com>
>Sent: Oct 17, 2006 1:00 PM
>To: Abhijit@sinett.com, pcalhoun@cisco.com, dstanley1389@gmail.com, montemurro.michael@gmail.com
>Cc: capwap@frascone.com
>Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
>
> ________________________________
>From: Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com]
>> Sent: Tue 10/17/2006 10:37 PM
>> To: Dorothy Stanley; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Michael Montemurro
>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
>> Subject: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
>>
>>
>>
>> Pat, Mike, Dorothy:
>>
>> I have a question based on v03 of the capwap spec.
>> In section 3.1, the spec mentions well-known UDP
>> ports for the CAPWAP control and data packets.
>>
>> There are four kinds of CAPWAP packets:
>> 1. DTLS protected control packets
>> 2. Unprotected control packets
>> 3. Unprotected data packets
>> 4. (Optional) DTLS protected data packets
>>
>>
>> Will there be 4 well-known UDP port numbers ?
>
>[NKA} As per my understanding, you don't need to have two seperate UDP ports
>for handling DTLS and Non-DTLS control packets. Following is the logic which
>I would use at AC:
>
>  1. If AC receives a UDP packet on its control port, and if it CAN'T
>find the session
>  information corresponding to the sender WTP, then the arrived packet can
>  be considered to be a discovery packet.
>
>  In the above situation, for some reason, if WTP sent a DTLS packet, AC can
>  continue to assume it to be a discovery packet. So it should feed the arrived
>  DTLS packet to its discovery packet processing module. Ultimately the
>  packet will get dropped by AC due to packet parsing error (chances of DTLS
>  packet looking like a valid discovery packet is very very slim).

Here are the first few words of the latest proposed capwap header, which would be at the head of the discovery message:

     0                   1                   2                   3
     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |Version|   RID   |  HLEN   |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|     Flags     |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |          Fragment ID          |     Frag Offset         |Rsvd |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 
Here's the DTLS record header, which will be present after dtls negotiation starts:

      0                   1                   2                   3
      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/
     |    type       |    protocol version           |  epoch
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/
       epoch, cont   |       (6 byte sequence #)
     /-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

The type will be from TLS; the ClientHello is 0x16, or 00010110 (other tls types of interest are similar), and the DTLS protocol version will be 0xFEFF, and any dtls version changes will just decrement the first version byte (FE, FD, FC, etc). This translates to the following bits:

    1   6    F    E    F   F
  0001 0110 1111 1110 1111 1111

Putting this into the capwap header:
     0                   1                   2                   3
     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |0 0 0 1|0 1 1 0 1|1 1 1 1 1|1 0 1 1 1|1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0|
    |VERSION|   RID   | HLEN    |  WBID   |   Reserved              |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

or, 

VERSION..: 0001
RID......: 01101 (13)
HLEN.....: 11111 (31)
WBID.....: 10111 (23)

Today, we don't have WBID of 23, so a robust implementation should interpret this as an error, but I wouldn't say
chances of a DTLS packet looking like a discovery packet are really all that slim.  It depends on several assumptions.

>After a few trial,
>  WTP will reboot and ultimately get in sync with AC's State machine.
>  2. If AC receives a UDP packet on its control port, and if it CAN
>find the session
>  information corresponding to the sender, then the arrived packet can be
>  considered as a DTLS packet. So AC should feed such packets to DTLS module
>  directly.

.. unless it's as discovery packet from a WTP that reset and no longer has the DTLS session context. Eventually, that session will timeout, but how long this takes depends on the configured echo interval. If it's more than a few seconds (e.g. say, 30 seconds), this adds a significant bit of latency to recovery scenarios.

>  You may have a situation in which session information exists for a WTP at AC,
>  but WTP is sending non-DTLS packet. Even in such situation, AC can feed such
>  packets to DTLS module, which will ultimately reject the packet. AC can use
>  this kind of notification to tear down the existing session, which
>will bring AC's
>  state machine in sync with that of WTP.

The WTP - or someone who spoofs the WTP address. Sounds like a very simple DoS attack. 

>I have not given much thought about the data path issue. May be the
>initial policy
>(about dtls) exhcnage would help. Once both the party (AC as well as WTP) agree
>whether DTLS will be used or not, the same information can be used for
>programming the hardware. I know that issue # 221 is tracking data
>path policy issue.
>
>NKA
>
>>
>> 1, 2 and 3 will be present simultaneously in any
>> deployment. 3 and 4 may co-exist in a deployment
>> if some data channels are encrypted and some not.
>> There has to be a way to distinguish these four
>> kinds of packets.  The draft is not clear about how
>> this is done.
>>

I think for data channel security, it will have to be a binary decision for an AC/WTP pair, i.e. if data channel encryption is enabled, it is for all data.

For the control channel, I think to have a clean solution (with deterministic behavior) we need either a separate discovery port or a type header which allows one to distinguish between discovery and dtls packets.

Scott

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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.


	Title		: CAPWAP Threat Analysis for 802.11 Deployments
	Author(s)	: S. Kelly, C. Clancy
	Filename	: draft-kelly-capwap-threat-analysis-00.txt
	Pages		: 28
	Date		: 2006-10-17
	
   Early Wireless LAN (WLAN) deployments feature a "fat" Access Point
   (AP) which serves as a standalone interface between the wired and
   wireless network segments.  However, this model raises scaling,
   mobility, and manageability issues, and the CAPWAP protocol [CAPWAP]
   is being developed in reponse.  CAPWAP effectively splits the fat AP
   functionality into two network elements, and the communication
   channel between these components may traverse potentially hostile
   hops.  This document analyzes the security exposure resulting from
   the introduction of CAPWAP, and summarizes the associated security
   considerations for CAPWAP implementations and deployments.



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From: "Abhijit Choudhury" <Abhijit@sinett.com>
To: "Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>,
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	I think for data channel security, it will have 
	to be a binary decision for an AC/WTP pair, i.e. 
	if data channel encryption is enabled, it is for all data.

	For the control channel, I think to have a clean 
	solution (with deterministic behavior) we need either 
	a separate discovery port or a type header which allows 
	one to distinguish between discovery and dtls packets.

	Scott

In a clean solution, the packet itself should have enough
information to clearly classify it as one of the four types
of packets. We should not have to depend on configuration 
lookups to check whether the packet is supposed to be DTLS
encrypted or not. 

We have used this principle already in designing the CAPWAP
header.  The T bit clearly identifies the payload as 802.3 or
native format. This could have been identified based on a 
config lookup since an AC would typically handle 802.3 payload
or native but rarely both. But we chose to include this information 
the header itself to make the design clean.

The same idea should be used for distinguishing between 
the four packet types.  Having four distinct UDP ports is one
option. I'm sure there are others.

Regards,
Abhijit
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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Oct 18 03:44:23 2006
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Pat and all,

The link:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt
is now on.

Regards,

--behcet

----- Original Message ----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:01:11 PM
Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r

ok, I will once it becomes available.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]
    *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2006 4:41 PM
    *To:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com
    *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r

    Pat,


    ----- Original Message ----
    From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
    To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>; capwap@frascone.com
    Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:02:43 PM
    Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r

    Behcet,
     
    I believe we've discussed this idea a few times, and I am still
    unsure why we believe CAPWAP needs to define anything to support
    TGr. The current CAPWAP protocol is sufficient to support the
    upcoming standard.

    ==>
    The basis is there but we need several extensions.
    Please read the draft and comment, then we can make a more informed
    decision, I think.


    Pat Calhoun
    CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
    Cisco Systems

     
    Regards,

    --behcet

        ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]
        *Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:33 AM
        *To:* capwap@frascone.com
        *Subject:* [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r

        Dear all,
          I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in 802.11R Domains.
        It should be available soon at the following link:

        http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt

        Regards,

        Behcet

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To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: exits aditional run
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Nouveaux font or boutiques Mvengele motion nouvel exploit lon parle pril =
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Dailythats vision.
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is Audioslave Spanish Dime Breed dirty rapcould of West Texas Fuzzbubble =
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brutal torture.
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vbulletin Jelsoft!
Eva Saint fiery shoot really trailer least seconds Video Shake Rattle =
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marvel going for Designer.
Nouveaux font or boutiques Mvengele motion nouvel exploit lon parle pril =
am demeure bravo problme celui.
Never flags workings magician made stay in bars tossing am jokes wears =
hat decorated stuffed vulture divination classroom tawdry tea shop.
Hermione know whole destroy is Professor Snape hate characters along =
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From:	"Jean" <ajhkluuwmh@andorpac.ad>
To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: exits aditional run
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Nouveaux font or boutiques Mvengele motion nouvel exploit lon parle pril =
am demeure bravo problme celui.
Study Scandal Mourns Larry Snitker am Threatens Zombie or Teenager Peace =
Processwhy Dudemoveon.
Thankfully example patience tolerance leaders Deans unearthed journals =
Dailythats vision.
Cole ringtones Pussy Daddy Yankee Chris Blige ubl in Cuenta Regresiva en =
is Audioslave Spanish Dime Breed dirty rapcould of West Texas Fuzzbubble =
Hollywood.
Compared Nanking scarcely bring describe killing fields azalea beds a =
brutal torture.
Result standing ovation Graphic Detailmeet team designers is versatile =
in artists vast portion minute details sell each or viewer being Love =
Previsfor.

Modems Chipsets Portable Printers in Scanners Storage am Monitors vga =
Misc Similar Enabling a Geforce msi Mega Netgear gmt pm a Archive am =
vbulletin Jelsoft!
Eva Saint fiery shoot really trailer least seconds Video Shake Rattle =
Rollthe put together enormous in goes mechanical start forming just =
marvel going for Designer.
Nouveaux font or boutiques Mvengele motion nouvel exploit lon parle pril =
am demeure bravo problme celui.
Never flags workings magician made stay in bars tossing am jokes wears =
hat decorated stuffed vulture divination classroom tawdry tea shop.
Hermione know whole destroy is Professor Snape hate characters along =
terrific Enjoying stint selling.
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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Oct 18 17:48:34 2006
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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:01:01 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: "Scott G. Kelly" <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>
To: NKA <nka.capwap@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
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<this is getting too hard to read, so extraneous text elided...>

>[NKA] Even if a less-robust AC implementation ends up interpreting DTLS
>message as a Discovery packet, do you think WTP (which unfortunately
>has passed discovery state) will be able to carry on with its DTLS
>session establishment and succeed ultimately? :-( I don't think so.  (Imagine
>this: WTP needs to successfully interpret Discovery response as HelloVerify
>request, followed by which AC needs to interpret ClientHello (with cookie) as
>Client Hello without Cookie, and so on).

That's not the point, and this is minor compared to the real issue, which is below.

>Folks,
>I want to ask you this DTLS/discovery control packet question in a different
>form. Suppose by accident (or due a bug), WTP happens to be in a FSM
>state which is not same as that of AC. How would AC process the arrived
>packet from the faulty WTP? It would go by its FSM state. 

Yes, but only in the absence of better information. If it's FSM state is RUN and it receives a discovery packet, though, going by its FSM state leads to an error condition.

> The logic for this
>is based on the fact that capwap header doesn't carry FSM state information
>and both the involved entities process packets based on the assumption
>that their FSM is in sync. Hence I conclude that discovery packets should
>not be treated in any special fashion.

The WTP may also be in in a different FSM state because it was restarted, either due to a crash, power failure, operator action, etc.  - it does not (necessarily) imply some freak accident or bug. 

In this case the WTP will often need to go through discovery again before reconnecting to the AC. If the AC erroneously feeds these packets to its DTLS implementation, they will be rejected, and the WTP will get no response.  This means failure recovery will not occur until the AC times out its DTLS session, and since these timeouts are frequently set as high as 30 seconds in the field,  and since the WTP may exhaust its discovery timers and go into sulking state due to AC unresponsiveness, this has the potential to signficantly (and unfortunately, completely avoidably) exacerbate the outage. 

You could try to work around this by handing every packet that fails in the DTLS engine to some other code to see if it's a discovery packet, but in doing so you're adding complexity, and compounding the amount of per-packet work an adversary can make an AC do.

>Having extra fields in the header or usage of seperate UDP ports will definitely
>ease up the situation here, but we, at IETF, are here to define a specification
>which is optimum in nature.

Umm... you lost me. I don't see how adding non-determism to save a port (or a few header bytes) results in an optimal solution.

Thanks,

Scott

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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
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On 10/18/06, Abhijit Choudhury <Abhijit@sinett.com> wrote:
>        I think for data channel security, it will have
>        to be a binary decision for an AC/WTP pair, i.e.
>        if data channel encryption is enabled, it is for all data.
>
>        For the control channel, I think to have a clean
>        solution (with deterministic behavior) we need either
>        a separate discovery port or a type header which allows
>        one to distinguish between discovery and dtls packets.
>
>        Scott
>
> In a clean solution, the packet itself should have enough information 
> to clearly classify it as one of the four types of packets. We should 
> not have to depend on configuration lookups to check whether the 
> packet is supposed to be DTLS encrypted or not.

[NKA] Good point. But remember that for this flag to be affective, it
needs to appear before the DTLS header. Currently Capwap transport
header comes after DTLS. If we take your suggestion, Capwap header will
be in two part. One part will appear before DTLS header and second one
will be after DTLS header. But didn't we recently decided to not go with
Mux header approach?

[Abhijit] That is exactly why I did not suggest a shim header or type
field. Instead, I suggested separate UDP ports to indicate the type
af packet. That way we don't need a separate header between 
UDP and DTLS headers.
>
> We have used this principle already in designing the CAPWAP header.  
> The T bit clearly identifies the payload as 802.3 or native format. 
> This could have been identified based on a config lookup since an AC 
> would typically handle 802.3 payload or native but rarely both. But we

> chose to include this information the header itself to make the design

> clean.
>
> The same idea should be used for distinguishing between
> the four packet types.  Having four distinct UDP ports is one option. 
> I'm sure there are others.
>
> Regards,
> Abhijit
>
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On 10/18/06, Abhijit Choudhury <Abhijit@sinett.com> wrote:
>        I think for data channel security, it will have
>        to be a binary decision for an AC/WTP pair, i.e.
>        if data channel encryption is enabled, it is for all data.
>
>        For the control channel, I think to have a clean
>        solution (with deterministic behavior) we need either
>        a separate discovery port or a type header which allows
>        one to distinguish between discovery and dtls packets.
>
>        Scott
>
> In a clean solution, the packet itself should have enough
> information to clearly classify it as one of the four types
> of packets. We should not have to depend on configuration
> lookups to check whether the packet is supposed to be DTLS
> encrypted or not.

[NKA] Good point. But remember that for this flag to be affective, it
needs to appear before the DTLS header. Currently Capwap transport
header comes after DTLS. If we take your suggestion, Capwap header
will be in two part. One part will appear before DTLS header and second one
will be after DTLS header. But didn't we recently decided to not go with Mux
header approach?


>
> We have used this principle already in designing the CAPWAP
> header.  The T bit clearly identifies the payload as 802.3 or
> native format. This could have been identified based on a
> config lookup since an AC would typically handle 802.3 payload
> or native but rarely both. But we chose to include this information
> the header itself to make the design clean.
>
> The same idea should be used for distinguishing between
> the four packet types.  Having four distinct UDP ports is one
> option. I'm sure there are others.
>
> Regards,
> Abhijit
>
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From: NKA <nka.capwap@gmail.com>
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Please go through my inline comments below.

NKA

On 10/18/06, Scott G. Kelly <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Comments inline below...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: NKA NKA <nka.capwap@gmail.com>
> >Sent: Oct 17, 2006 1:00 PM
> >To: Abhijit@sinett.com, pcalhoun@cisco.com, dstanley1389@gmail.com, montemurro.michael@gmail.com
> >Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> >Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
> >
> > ________________________________
> >From: Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com]
> >> Sent: Tue 10/17/2006 10:37 PM
> >> To: Dorothy Stanley; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Michael Montemurro
> >> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> >> Subject: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Pat, Mike, Dorothy:
> >>
> >> I have a question based on v03 of the capwap spec.
> >> In section 3.1, the spec mentions well-known UDP
> >> ports for the CAPWAP control and data packets.
> >>
> >> There are four kinds of CAPWAP packets:
> >> 1. DTLS protected control packets
> >> 2. Unprotected control packets
> >> 3. Unprotected data packets
> >> 4. (Optional) DTLS protected data packets
> >>
> >>
> >> Will there be 4 well-known UDP port numbers ?
> >
> >[NKA} As per my understanding, you don't need to have two seperate UDP ports
> >for handling DTLS and Non-DTLS control packets. Following is the logic which
> >I would use at AC:
> >
> >  1. If AC receives a UDP packet on its control port, and if it CAN'T
> >find the session
> >  information corresponding to the sender WTP, then the arrived packet can
> >  be considered to be a discovery packet.
> >
> >  In the above situation, for some reason, if WTP sent a DTLS packet, AC can
> >  continue to assume it to be a discovery packet. So it should feed the arrived
> >  DTLS packet to its discovery packet processing module. Ultimately the
> >  packet will get dropped by AC due to packet parsing error (chances of DTLS
> >  packet looking like a valid discovery packet is very very slim).
>
> Here are the first few words of the latest proposed capwap header, which would be at the head of the discovery message:
>
>     0                   1                   2                   3
>     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |Version|   RID   |  HLEN   |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|     Flags     |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |          Fragment ID          |     Frag Offset         |Rsvd |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
> Here's the DTLS record header, which will be present after dtls negotiation starts:
>
>      0                   1                   2                   3
>      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/
>     |    type       |    protocol version           |  epoch
>     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/
>       epoch, cont   |       (6 byte sequence #)
>     /-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
> The type will be from TLS; the ClientHello is 0x16, or 00010110 (other tls types of interest are similar), and the DTLS protocol version will be 0xFEFF, and any dtls version changes will just decrement the first version byte (FE, FD, FC, etc). This translates to the following bits:
>
>    1   6    F    E    F   F
>  0001 0110 1111 1110 1111 1111
>
> Putting this into the capwap header:
>     0                   1                   2                   3
>     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |0 0 0 1|0 1 1 0 1|1 1 1 1 1|1 0 1 1 1|1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0|
>    |VERSION|   RID   | HLEN    |  WBID   |   Reserved              |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
> or,
>
> VERSION..: 0001
> RID......: 01101 (13)
> HLEN.....: 11111 (31)
> WBID.....: 10111 (23)
>
> Today, we don't have WBID of 23, so a robust implementation should interpret this as an error, but I wouldn't say
> chances of a DTLS packet looking like a discovery packet are really all that slim.  It depends on several assumptions.

[NKA] Even if a less-robust AC implementation ends up interpreting DTLS
message as a Discovery packet, do you think WTP (which unfortunately
has passed discovery state) will be able to carry on with its DTLS
session establishment and succeed ultimately? :-( I don't think so.  (Imagine
this: WTP needs to successfully interpret Discovery response as HelloVerify
request, followed by which AC needs to interpret ClientHello (with cookie) as
Client Hello without Cookie, and so on).

Folks,
I want to ask you this DTLS/discovery control packet question in a different
form. Suppose by accident (or due a bug), WTP happens to be in a FSM
state which is not same as that of AC. How would AC process the arrived
packet from the faulty WTP? It would go by its FSM state. The logic for this
is based on the fact that capwap header doesn't carry FSM state information
and both the involved entities process packets based on the assumption
that their FSM is in sync. Hence I conclude that discovery packets should
not be treated in any special fashion.

Having extra fields in the header or usage of seperate UDP ports will definitely
ease up the situation here, but we, at IETF, are here to define a specification
which is optimum in nature.


>
> >After a few trial,
> >  WTP will reboot and ultimately get in sync with AC's State machine.
> >  2. If AC receives a UDP packet on its control port, and if it CAN
> >find the session
> >  information corresponding to the sender, then the arrived packet can be
> >  considered as a DTLS packet. So AC should feed such packets to DTLS module
> >  directly.
>
> .. unless it's as discovery packet from a WTP that reset and no longer has the DTLS session context. Eventually, that session will timeout, but how long this takes depends on the configured echo interval. If it's more than a few seconds (e.g. say, 30 seconds), this adds a significant bit of latency to recovery scenarios.
>
> >  You may have a situation in which session information exists for a WTP at AC,
> >  but WTP is sending non-DTLS packet. Even in such situation, AC can feed such
> >  packets to DTLS module, which will ultimately reject the packet. AC can use
> >  this kind of notification to tear down the existing session, which
> >will bring AC's
> >  state machine in sync with that of WTP.
>
> The WTP - or someone who spoofs the WTP address. Sounds like a very simple DoS attack.
>
> >I have not given much thought about the data path issue. May be the
> >initial policy
> >(about dtls) exhcnage would help. Once both the party (AC as well as WTP) agree
> >whether DTLS will be used or not, the same information can be used for
> >programming the hardware. I know that issue # 221 is tracking data
> >path policy issue.
> >
> >NKA
> >
> >>
> >> 1, 2 and 3 will be present simultaneously in any
> >> deployment. 3 and 4 may co-exist in a deployment
> >> if some data channels are encrypted and some not.
> >> There has to be a way to distinguish these four
> >> kinds of packets.  The draft is not clear about how
> >> this is done.
> >>
>
> I think for data channel security, it will have to be a binary decision for an AC/WTP pair, i.e. if data channel encryption is enabled, it is for all data.
>
> For the control channel, I think to have a clean solution (with deterministic behavior) we need either a separate discovery port or a type header which allows one to distinguish between discovery and dtls packets.
>
> Scott
>
>
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From: "Scott G. Kelly" <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>
To: Abhijit Choudhury <Abhijit@sinett.com>
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Hi Abhijit,

>[Abhijit] That is exactly why I did not suggest a shim header or type
>field. Instead, I suggested separate UDP ports to indicate the type
>af packet. That way we don't need a separate header between 
>UDP and DTLS headers.

Yes, because we all know that putting anything between the UDP header and the DTLS header is *EVIL*, and anyone who would even *SUGGEST* such heresy should be crucified! And BURNED! And STABBED, SHOT, BEATEN, and RIDICULED, and then FEASTED UPON BY MAGGOTS!

But a little more seriously :-), one reason I still consider a type header worthy of consideration (despite the choice of separate ports for control/data): if we implement data channel crypto (and there seems to be stronger support for this now), we are either going to have to use exactly one QoS level for all data, or we'll need to be able to support multiple encrypted data channel streams per wtp (up to a maximum of 1 per QoS level, or 8).  Otherwise, the DTLS antireplay mechanism and QoS won't play well together.

This is a well-documented problem that we ran into in IPsec, and it will also occur here in CAPWAP, and especially once 11n shows up.  See RFC 4301, halfway into section 4.1 (starting near the bottom of page 13):

   If different classes of traffic (distinguished by Differentiated
   Services Code Point (DSCP) bits [NiBlBaBL98], [Gro02]) are sent on
   the same SA, and if the receiver is employing the optional
   anti-replay feature available in both AH and ESP, this could result
   in inappropriate discarding of lower priority packets due to the
   windowing mechanism used by this feature.  Therefore, a sender SHOULD
   put traffic of different classes, but with the same selector values,
   on different SAs to support Quality of Service (QoS) appropriately.
   To permit this, the IPsec implementation MUST permit establishment
   and maintenance of multiple SAs between a given sender and receiver,
   with the same selectors.  Distribution of traffic among these
   parallel SAs to support QoS is locally determined by the sender and
   is not negotiated by IKE.  The receiver MUST process the packets from
   the different SAs without prejudice.  These requirements apply to
   both transport and tunnel mode SAs.  In the case of tunnel mode SAs,
   the DSCP values in question appear in the inner IP header.  In
   transport mode, the DSCP value might change en route, but this should
   not cause problems with respect to IPsec processing since the value
   is not employed for SA selection and MUST NOT be checked as part of
   SA/packet validation.  However, if significant re-ordering of packets
   occurs in an SA, e.g., as a result of changes to DSCP values en
   route, this may trigger packet discarding by a receiver due to
   application of the anti-replay mechanism.
-----------------------

Antireplay is not optional in DTLS, so the same issues apply - you need per-QoS-level session identifiers to resolve this -- that is, if you want data channel QoS support. One option is to choose a separate port for each QoS level, but that would mean we'd potentially need to support 8 ports for data, and if we ever decide we need to differentiate QoS levels on the control channel for some reason, we'll need even more ports for that.

Even with 50K ports still available (or more, or less, don't know the exact number today),  it's possible that IANA and/or the IESG will object to us grabbing this many ports for one protocol. Especially when this could be easily solved by putting a few bytes between the udp header and the payload. This doesn't mean you don't use two ports, one for control, one for data - it simply means you have a stream id+type in the clear after the UDP header.

Scott




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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Oct 18 21:50:01 2006
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Behcet,

CAPWAP has not yet defined how 11r FT and reassociation packets are 
tunneled for Local and Split MAC.  Your assumption is that in Local MAC 
they would be processed at the WTP.  However, if they are processed by 
the AC (just as the current four-way-handshake packets) then there's no 
reason to transport PMK-R1s to WTPs, and no changes necessary to CAPWAP 
to support 11r.  In fact, transportation of PMK-R1s to the WTPs would 
break the current CAPWAP security model.  In CAPWAP we only have one 
authenticator; therefore PMK-* MUST reside at the AC.

-- 
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy


Behcet Sarikaya wrote:
> Pat and all,
> 
> The link:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt
> is now on.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> --behcet
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
> To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:01:11 PM
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
> 
> ok, I will once it becomes available.
>  
> 
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
> 
>  
> 
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]
>     *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2006 4:41 PM
>     *To:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com
>     *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
> 
>     Pat,
> 
> 
>     ----- Original Message ----
>     From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
>     To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>; capwap@frascone.com
>     Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:02:43 PM
>     Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
> 
>     Behcet,
>      
>     I believe we've discussed this idea a few times, and I am still
>     unsure why we believe CAPWAP needs to define anything to support
>     TGr. The current CAPWAP protocol is sufficient to support the
>     upcoming standard.
> 
>     ==>
>     The basis is there but we need several extensions.
>     Please read the draft and comment, then we can make a more informed
>     decision, I think.
> 
> 
>     Pat Calhoun
>     CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
>     Cisco Systems
> 
>      
>     Regards,
> 
>     --behcet
> 
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]
>         *Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:33 AM
>         *To:* capwap@frascone.com
>         *Subject:* [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
> 
>         Dear all,
>           I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in 802.11R Domains.
>         It should be available soon at the following link:
> 
>         http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt
> 
>         Regards,
> 
>         Behcet
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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Hi Charles,=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Charles Clancy <clancy=
@cs.umd.edu>=0ATo: sarikaya@ieee.org=0ACc: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>=0AS=
ent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 8:49:29 PM=0ASubject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP =
for 802.11r=0A=0ABehcet,=0A=0ACAPWAP has not yet defined how 11r FT and rea=
ssociation packets are =0Atunneled for Local and Split MAC.  =0A=3D=3D> Cor=
rect. =0AYour assumption is that in Local MAC =0Athey would be processed at=
 the WTP.  However, if they are processed by =0Athe AC (just as the current=
 four-way-handshake packets) then there's no =0Areason to transport PMK-R1s=
 to WTPs, and no changes necessary to CAPWAP =0Ato support 11r.  In fact, t=
ransportation of PMK-R1s to the WTPs would =0Abreak the current CAPWAP secu=
rity model. =0A=3D=3D>My proposal is to use the key distribution protocol o=
f 802.11r which securely transports the keys.=0A=3D=3D>Also no need for the=
 context transfer which was what I had in mind.=0A=3D=3D> Can you spare you=
r ideas why that would not work in CAPWAP?=0A In CAPWAP we only have one =
=0Aauthenticator; therefore PMK-* MUST reside at the AC.=0A=3D=3D> You're s=
aying we only need the split MAC scenarios that I have in the draft.=0A=0A-=
- =0At. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy=0A=
=0A=3D=3D>=0AThe purpose of the draft is to attempt to initiate work on ext=
ending CAPWAP 802.11 binding for FT.=0AI think it will be good to discuss t=
his and get ideas?=0A=0AThanks,=0A=0ABehcet=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
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<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;f=
ont-size:12pt"><div style=3D"font-family: courier,monaco,monospace,sans-ser=
if; font-size: 12pt;">Hi Charles,<br><br><div style=3D"font-family: times n=
ew roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">----- Original Message ---=
-<br>From: Charles Clancy &lt;clancy@cs.umd.edu&gt;<br>To: sarikaya@ieee.or=
g<br>Cc: capwap &lt;capwap@frascone.com&gt;<br>Sent: Wednesday, October 18,=
 2006 8:49:29 PM<br>Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<br><br><div>Be=
hcet,<br><br>CAPWAP has not yet defined how 11r FT and reassociation packet=
s are <br>tunneled for Local and Split MAC.&nbsp; <br>=3D=3D&gt; Correct. <=
br>Your assumption is that in Local MAC <br>they would be processed at the =
WTP.&nbsp;&nbsp;However, if they are processed by <br>the AC (just as the c=
urrent four-way-handshake packets) then there's no <br>reason to transport =
PMK-R1s to WTPs, and no
 changes necessary to CAPWAP <br>to support 11r.&nbsp;&nbsp;In fact, transp=
ortation of PMK-R1s to the WTPs would <br>break the current CAPWAP security=
 model. <br>=3D=3D&gt;My proposal is to use the key distribution protocol o=
f 802.11r which securely transports the keys.<br>=3D=3D&gt;Also no need for=
 the context transfer which was what I had in mind.<br>=3D=3D&gt; Can you s=
pare your ideas why that would not work in CAPWAP?<br>&nbsp;In CAPWAP we on=
ly have one <br>authenticator; therefore PMK-* MUST reside at the AC.<br>=
=3D=3D&gt; You're saying we only need the split MAC scenarios that I have i=
n the draft.<br><br>-- <br>t. charles clancy, ph.d.&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp=
;tcc@umd.edu&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://ww=
w.cs.umd.edu/%7Eclancy">www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy</a><br><br>=3D=3D&gt;<br>The=
 purpose of the draft is to attempt to initiate work on extending CAPWAP 80=
2.11 binding for FT.<br>I think it will be good to discuss this and get
 ideas?<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>Behcet<br><br><br></div></div><br></div></div=
></body></html>
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Subject: [Capwap] Handling of failed requests
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Hi,

The CAPWAP specification is not very clear on how to handle a failure
indication in the Result Code message element in the response to certain
request messages.

Join Request and Reset Request I guess is OK.
But what shall be done in AC and WTP if Configuration Update Requests,
WLAN Configuration Requests and Station Request fail?

One drastic approach would be to as mentioned in the spec for Reset
Response "to no longer provide service to the WTP in question".
But this seems a litle bit to drastic if WLAN Configuration and Station
Requests fails.=20

Peter Nilsson

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hi,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The CAPWAP specification is not very =
clear on how to handle a failure indication in the Result Code message =
element in the response to certain request messages.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Join Request and Reset Request I guess =
is OK.</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">But what shall be done in AC and WTP =
if Configuration Update Requests, WLAN Configuration Requests and =
Station Request fail?</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">One drastic approach would be to as =
mentioned in the spec for Reset Response &quot;to no longer provide =
service to the WTP in question&quot;.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">But this seems a litle bit to drastic =
if WLAN Configuration and Station Requests fails. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Peter Nilsson</FONT>
</P>

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From akstcabcnewsmnsdgs@abcnews.com Thu Oct 19 08:50:25 2006
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Ceo or Book Club Review Gary Weiss am vs Wall Street David Whelana qa =
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Behcet,

The architecture laid out in your specification seems to conflict with
the CAPWAP architecture. 

A couple of specific concerns before I get into the meat of the
document:

   > We use [802.11r] key distribution protocol for transfering key
context
   > for Local MAC WTPs.

The latest 802.11r draft does not define a key distribution protocol to
move key context across WTPs (or APs). So I am not sure what we are
refering to.

   > AC next generates PMK-R1 for R1 key holder (R1KH), i.e. the WTP.
AC
   > is now in a position to transfer PMK-R1 context and associated
   > authorization to the WTP.  R1KH and STA perform a 4-way handshake
and
   > generate the session key, PTK.

The CAPWAP protocol does not assume that the PMK is ever transferred
down into the WTP. Furthermore, the protocol assumes the authenticator
resides in the AC - not the WTP. So this statement seems to change the
fundamental architecture of the CAPWAP protocol.

I will have many additional questions once I read the specification
completely, but first want to make sure that we agree on whether the
spec is in scope or not (by answering the above questions).

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:43 AM
> To: capwap
> Subject: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
> 
> Pat and all,
> 
> The link:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fast
> bss-00.txt
> is now on.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> --behcet
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
> To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:01:11 PM
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
> 
> ok, I will once it becomes available.
>  
> 
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
> 
>  
> 
>     
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
>     *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]
>     *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2006 4:41 PM
>     *To:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com
>     *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
> 
>     Pat,
> 
> 
>     ----- Original Message ----
>     From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
>     To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>; 
> capwap@frascone.com
>     Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:02:43 PM
>     Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
> 
>     Behcet,
>      
>     I believe we've discussed this idea a few times, and I am still
>     unsure why we believe CAPWAP needs to define anything to support
>     TGr. The current CAPWAP protocol is sufficient to support the
>     upcoming standard.
> 
>     ==>
>     The basis is there but we need several extensions.
>     Please read the draft and comment, then we can make a 
> more informed
>     decision, I think.
> 
> 
>     Pat Calhoun
>     CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
>     Cisco Systems
> 
>      
>     Regards,
> 
>     --behcet
> 
>         
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
>         *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]
>         *Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:33 AM
>         *To:* capwap@frascone.com
>         *Subject:* [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
> 
>         Dear all,
>           I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in 
> 802.11R Domains.
>         It should be available soon at the following link:
> 
>         
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fast
> bss-00.txt
> 
>         Regards,
> 
>         Behcet
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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Thread-Topic: need clarification on UDP ports
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "Abhijit Choudhury" <Abhijit@sinett.com>,
	"Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>,
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Abhijit, this issue was not addressed by the editors given that we were
waiting for the chairs to make a consensus determination, which occured
too close to the I-D deadline. That said, this would be a good time to
start the discussion.
 
My proposal would be as follows (this is conceptual, not actual draft
text). Note this proposal is optimized to utilize the fewest possible
ports, and assumes that IANA would not agree to a UDP port landgrab.
 
The AC maintains a DTLS SA table which consists of the WTP's IP address
and UDP port numbers. When the AC receives a Discovery Request on the
CAPWAP control port, it performs a lookup to determine whether the
IP/Port information matches the DTLS SA table. If the IP/Port does not
match an entry in the DTLS SA table, the AC responds with a Discovery
response and waits for a successful DTLS setup, which would create a new
DTLS SA. If there is a match, then the packet is a DTLS encrypted
payload, which is sent to the DTLS stack. The following is an example of
the packet exchange (note the ports used here are for illustration
purposes only):

WTP                                                       AC
(WTP Picks a pseudo-random source port)
----- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Request (662, 1233) ------> 
<---- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Response (1233, 662) ------

Using Scott's recommendation to look at the WBID, which when set to any
value other than 23 (which we will need to reserve), then we know this
packet is a discovery request, and process it accordingly. One
alternative to reserving a WBID would be to require that the Reserved
field in the CAPWAP header be set to '111', which would provide another
way to differentiate the packets.

--------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (662, 1233) -------->
<-------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (1233, 662) ---------

The WBID value of 23 will be an indication that the DTLS session is
being established (or the alternative proposed above)... at this point
all packets are from now on fed into the DTLS engine. Once the DTLS
session is established, all CAPWAP packets will be marked internally as
'Application Data', and once decrypted will be sent back into the CAPWAP
module for processing...

-------- CAPWAP Control/Join Request (662, 1233) ---------> (includes
support for DTLS/Data)
<------- CAPWAP Control/Join Response (1233, 662) --------- (Dictates
whether DTLS is to be used on data plane, and a random cookie)

When inactivity occurs over the control plane, the keepalive is sent to
keep the session alive (also useful for NAT traversal):

------- CAPWAP Control/Keepalive Request (662, 1233) ----->
<------ CAPWAP Control/Keepalive Response (1233, 662) -----

The following is optional, and occurs if DTLS needs to be used on the
data plane UDP port:

----------- DTLS Session Setup/Data (685, 1234) ---------->
<---------- DTLS Session Setup/Data (1234, 685) -----------

Again, the WBID of 23 is used to identify the DTLS packet. When used and
established, all CAPWAP data packets will be marked as 'Application
Data' within DTLS. So these packets would pop back out of the DTLS stack
for CAPWAP processing. Yes, this requires that the data plane remember
the configuration enforced by the AC, and therefore it does not mark
each packet as "with DTLS" or "without DTLS". We can do this, but
frankly it provides little value because ultimately, if DTLS was
required and a packet is sent in the clear, it will be dropped anyhow.
Furthermore, I trust an authenticated payload much more than a bit "in
the clear".

A specialized packet is then sent on the data plane to create the
correlation between the control and data plane sessions. A new bit in
the CAPWAP header, which I will call 'D' (for Data Management) is set so
this gets treated as a specialized packet on the data plane UDP port:

---------- CAPWAP Data/Announce Req (685, 1234) ----------> (Including
the cookie to bind to control channel)
<--------- CAPWAP Data/Announce resp (1234, 685) ----------

NOTE: Another alternative to this scheme is to include a session
identifier in the header, which provides the correlation between the
control and data channel. This would be much simpler to implement, and
not require special processing of the data plane. However, if folks
believe that keeping the NAT session fresh, then we need some mechanism
to keep the channel alive. If this is found to be desirable/required,
then a periodic exchange needs to occur to keep the NAT table entry
fresh (again, with the 'D' bit set):

------- CAPWAP Data/Keepalive Request (685, 1234) -------->
<------ CAPWAP Data/Keepalive Response (1234, 685) --------

Should the WTP fail, it would pick a new source UDP port for both the
control and data plane, and send a Discovery Request using the control
UDP port. It is important to note that the longevity of the uniqueness
characteristics of the UDP port is not very long (e.g., one day after
reboot). This is a new requirement on the WTP, but not unrealistic since
802.11 APs have to do this for the RADIUS protocol today (to maintain
unique session identifiers). The AC does not flush its current DTLS SA
until the DTLS exchange is complete (and successful).

WTP                                                       AC
(WTP picks a new pseudo-random source port)
----- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Request (772, 1233) ------> 
<---- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Response (1233, 772) ------

Using Scott's recommendation to look at the WBID, which when set to any
value other than 23 (which we will need to reserve), then we know this
packet is a discovery request, and process it accordingly.

--------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (772, 1233) -------->
<-------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (1233, 772) ---------

The WBID value of 23 will be an indication that the DTLS session is
being established... at this point all packets are from now on fed into
the DTLS engine.

If NAT is used, it is possible that the WTP's source IP address is used
for multiple WTPs. In this case, the AC can identify each WTP using the
DTLS credentials. The AC can then delete the old DTLS SAs (control and
optionally data), that are associated with the WTP's credentials.
Alternatively, the AC could simply wait for the sessions to expire.


Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 


________________________________

	From: Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com] 
	Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:08 AM
	To: Dorothy Stanley; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Michael Montemurro
	Cc: capwap@frascone.com
	Subject: need clarification on UDP ports
	
	
	Pat, Mike, Dorothy:
	 
	I have a question based on v03 of the capwap spec.
	In section 3.1, the spec mentions well-known UDP
	ports for the CAPWAP control and data packets.
	 
	There are four kinds of CAPWAP packets:
	1. DTLS protected control packets
	2. Unprotected control packets
	3. Unprotected data packets
	4. (Optional) DTLS protected data packets
	 
	Will there be 4 well-known UDP port numbers ?
	 
	1, 2 and 3 will be present simultaneously in any
	deployment. 3 and 4 may co-exist in a deployment
	if some data channels are encrypted and some not.
	There has to be a way to distinguish these four 
	kinds of packets.  The draft is not clear about how 
	this is done.
	 
	Thanks,
	   Abhijit
	
	
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From: "Navin (NKA)" <nka.capwap@gmail.com>
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On 10/19/06, Scott G. Kelly <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> <this is getting too hard to read, so extraneous text elided...>
>
> >[NKA] Even if a less-robust AC implementation ends up interpreting DTLS
> >message as a Discovery packet, do you think WTP (which unfortunately
> >has passed discovery state) will be able to carry on with its DTLS
> >session establishment and succeed ultimately? :-( I don't think so.  (Imagine
> >this: WTP needs to successfully interpret Discovery response as HelloVerify
> >request, followed by which AC needs to interpret ClientHello (with cookie) as
> >Client Hello without Cookie, and so on).
>
> That's not the point, and this is minor compared to the real issue, which is below.
>

[NKA] Scott, so you agree that the logic which I have explained for handling
discovery/DTLS packets is correct, but you feel that it would result in slower
synchronization between WTP and AC FSM?

Fine. Lets discuss how to reduce bring-up time of a Capwap compliant WTP
in general in a seperate NEW thread? It will be confusing for the WG folks
to discuss the same under incorrect/inappropriate thread subject.


> >Folks,
> >I want to ask you this DTLS/discovery control packet question in a different
> >form. Suppose by accident (or due a bug), WTP happens to be in a FSM
> >state which is not same as that of AC. How would AC process the arrived
> >packet from the faulty WTP? It would go by its FSM state.
>
> Yes, but only in the absence of better information. If it's FSM state is RUN and it receives a discovery packet, though, going by its FSM state leads to an error condition.
>
> > The logic for this
> >is based on the fact that capwap header doesn't carry FSM state information
> >and both the involved entities process packets based on the assumption
> >that their FSM is in sync. Hence I conclude that discovery packets should
> >not be treated in any special fashion.
>
> The WTP may also be in in a different FSM state because it was restarted, either due to a crash, power failure, operator action, etc.  - it does not (necessarily) imply some freak accident or bug.
>
> In this case the WTP will often need to go through discovery again before reconnecting to the AC. If the AC erroneously feeds these packets to its DTLS implementation, they will be rejected, and the WTP will get no response.  This means failure recovery will not occur until the AC times out its DTLS session, and since these timeouts are frequently set as high as 30 seconds in the field,  and since the WTP may exhaust its discovery timers and go into sulking state due to AC unresponsiveness, this has the potential to signficantly (and unfortunately, completely avoidably) exacerbate the outage.
>
> You could try to work around this by handing every packet that fails in the DTLS engine to some other code to see if it's a discovery packet, but in doing so you're adding complexity, and compounding the amount of per-packet work an adversary can make an AC do.
>
> >Having extra fields in the header or usage of seperate UDP ports will definitely
> >ease up the situation here, but we, at IETF, are here to define a specification
> >which is optimum in nature.
>
> Umm... you lost me. I don't see how adding non-determism to save a port (or a few header bytes) results in an optimal solution.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Scott
>
>
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From: "Charles Clancy" <clancy@cs.umd.edu>
To: "Behcet Sarikaya" <sarikaya@ieee.org>
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Behcet,

> My proposal is to use the key distribution protocol of 802.11r which
> securely transports the keys.
> Also no need for the context transfer which was what I had in mind.

My point is that we don't need to distribute PMK-R1 keys since all
authenticator functionality will reside at the AC regardless of the MAC
splitting, so we therefore don't need a new key distribution protocol at
all.

Here's how I envision an 11r handoff:

STA            WTP1           WTP2              AC
--------------------------------------------------

Initial authentication (as CAPWAP does now):

<--- assoc ----->
<-------------- open authentication ------------->
<----------------- 1X/EAP authentication -------->
               (derives PMK-R0, PMK-R1)
<--------------- four-way handshake ------------->
                   (derives PTK)
                <---------- add mobile (PTK) -----

fast handoff:

               (AC and STA derive new PMK-R1')
<------- FT / reassoc (PMK Name, MIC, etc) ------>
                  (derives new PTK')
                              <- add mobile (PTK')
                <---------- delete mobile --------


> Can you spare your ideas why that would not work in CAPWAP?

I'm not sure to what you're referring.  Using the yet-to-be-defined 11r
key distribution protocol duplicates the add-mobile CAPWAP architecture
for distributing keying material.  Additionally, it violates the security
restriction that keys from the PMK-level in the keying hierarchy MUST
remain at the authenticator, which is the AC.

> You're saying we only need the split MAC scenarios that I have in the
> draft.

I'm saying that CAPWAP can support 11r without any protocol changes.  The
only changes I can envision being necessary are perhaps capabilities flags
indicating support for 11r, so ACs and WTPs know that each other supports
11r.  All the 11r protocol processing would be implemented at the AC.  The
WTP would just have to know about the additional 802.11 messages, and know
they should be forwarded to the AC.  WTPs and ACs would also have to
support AES-CMAC, which is defined in 11r.

--
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy

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To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>,
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You know, after seeing my post on this topic yesterday, I thought maybe my sarcasm was a bit overdone, and I actually regretted that post. But now, after seeing what sort of hoops you're willing to jump through to avoid that much simpler approach at apparently any cost... well, now I'm not so sure.

Sigh. Comments inline...

<extraneous text elided...>
>The AC maintains a DTLS SA table which consists of the WTP's IP address
>and UDP port numbers. When the AC receives a Discovery Request on the
>CAPWAP control port, it performs a lookup to determine whether the
>IP/Port information matches the DTLS SA table. If the IP/Port does not
>match an entry in the DTLS SA table, the AC responds with a Discovery
>response and waits for a successful DTLS setup, which would create a new
>DTLS SA. If there is a match, then the packet is a DTLS encrypted
>payload, which is sent to the DTLS stack. The following is an example of
>the packet exchange (note the ports used here are for illustration
>purposes only):
>
>WTP                                                       AC
>(WTP Picks a pseudo-random source port)
>----- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Request (662, 1233) ------> 
><---- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Response (1233, 662) ------
>
>Using Scott's recommendation to look at the WBID, which when set to any
>value other than 23 (which we will need to reserve), then we know this
>packet is a discovery request, and process it accordingly. One
>alternative to reserving a WBID would be to require that the Reserved
>field in the CAPWAP header be set to '111', which would provide another
>way to differentiate the packets.

Let's stop here, because this is where it starts getting twisted. I didn't recommend this sort of hack. There are two major flaws to this approach. The first is that you assume that the DTLS header format will not change. That's probably unwise, given that it is a new protocol. This early in the game, anything after the version field is fair game, and hacking based on assumptions of immutability is (in my opinion, at least) A Bad Thing (tm).

The second issue here is that you're not looking carefully at the DTLS header alignment as it currently exists. Each version change results in the first version byte being decremented. It is currently FE, and the next will be FD, then FC, and so on. Look at what this means for the WBID field (which, by the way, could *also* be changed before we've finished with capwap):

     0                   1                   2                   3
     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |0 0 0 1|0 1 1 0 1|1 1 1 1 1|1 0 1 1 1|1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0|
    |VERSION|   RID   | HLEN    |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|    FLAGS      |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/
    |    type       |     protocol version          |  epoch
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/
FEFF                |1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1|
                    +---------------+---------------+
FDFF                |1 1 1 1 1 1 0 1|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1|
                    +---------------+---------------+
FCFF                |1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1|
                    +---------------+---------------+
FBFF                |1 1 1 1 1 0 1 1|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1|
                    +---------------+---------------+
FAFF                |1 1 1 1 1 0 1 0|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1|
                    +---------------+---------------+

Since there are two WBID bits affected, your scheme requires that there be at least 4 untouchable WBID values (assuming we don't change the capwap header): 7, 15, 23, and 31. This is starting to sound more than a little bit hacky, and certainly not something you want to implement in hardware.

I won't go line by line on the stuff below, as this is more than I can ask people to bear. I have only two points to make here: 

1) regarding the comment below where you say "Furthermore, I trust an authenticated payload much more than a bit 'in the clear'",  I'm wondering: why are unauthenticated values in the UDP and IP headers more trustworthy than values following them? Think about it.

2) look at the signalling complexity you are adding! And all this to avoid ...what, exactly?


Scott




>

>--------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (662, 1233) -------->
><-------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (1233, 662) ---------
>
>The WBID value of 23 will be an indication that the DTLS session is
>being established (or the alternative proposed above)... at this point
>all packets are from now on fed into the DTLS engine. Once the DTLS
>session is established, all CAPWAP packets will be marked internally as
>'Application Data', and once decrypted will be sent back into the CAPWAP
>module for processing...
>
>-------- CAPWAP Control/Join Request (662, 1233) ---------> (includes
>support for DTLS/Data)
><------- CAPWAP Control/Join Response (1233, 662) --------- (Dictates
>whether DTLS is to be used on data plane, and a random cookie)
>
>When inactivity occurs over the control plane, the keepalive is sent to
>keep the session alive (also useful for NAT traversal):
>
>------- CAPWAP Control/Keepalive Request (662, 1233) ----->
><------ CAPWAP Control/Keepalive Response (1233, 662) -----
>
>The following is optional, and occurs if DTLS needs to be used on the
>data plane UDP port:
>
>----------- DTLS Session Setup/Data (685, 1234) ---------->
><---------- DTLS Session Setup/Data (1234, 685) -----------
>
>Again, the WBID of 23 is used to identify the DTLS packet. When used and
>established, all CAPWAP data packets will be marked as 'Application
>Data' within DTLS. So these packets would pop back out of the DTLS stack
>for CAPWAP processing. Yes, this requires that the data plane remember
>the configuration enforced by the AC, and therefore it does not mark
>each packet as "with DTLS" or "without DTLS". We can do this, but
>frankly it provides little value because ultimately, if DTLS was
>required and a packet is sent in the clear, it will be dropped anyhow.
>Furthermore, I trust an authenticated payload much more than a bit "in
>the clear".
>
>A specialized packet is then sent on the data plane to create the
>correlation between the control and data plane sessions. A new bit in
>the CAPWAP header, which I will call 'D' (for Data Management) is set so
>this gets treated as a specialized packet on the data plane UDP port:
>
>---------- CAPWAP Data/Announce Req (685, 1234) ----------> (Including
>the cookie to bind to control channel)
><--------- CAPWAP Data/Announce resp (1234, 685) ----------
>
>NOTE: Another alternative to this scheme is to include a session
>identifier in the header, which provides the correlation between the
>control and data channel. This would be much simpler to implement, and
>not require special processing of the data plane. However, if folks
>believe that keeping the NAT session fresh, then we need some mechanism
>to keep the channel alive. If this is found to be desirable/required,
>then a periodic exchange needs to occur to keep the NAT table entry
>fresh (again, with the 'D' bit set):
>
>------- CAPWAP Data/Keepalive Request (685, 1234) -------->
><------ CAPWAP Data/Keepalive Response (1234, 685) --------
>
>Should the WTP fail, it would pick a new source UDP port for both the
>control and data plane, and send a Discovery Request using the control
>UDP port. It is important to note that the longevity of the uniqueness
>characteristics of the UDP port is not very long (e.g., one day after
>reboot). This is a new requirement on the WTP, but not unrealistic since
>802.11 APs have to do this for the RADIUS protocol today (to maintain
>unique session identifiers). The AC does not flush its current DTLS SA
>until the DTLS exchange is complete (and successful).
>
>WTP                                                       AC
>(WTP picks a new pseudo-random source port)
>----- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Request (772, 1233) ------> 
><---- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Response (1233, 772) ------
>
>Using Scott's recommendation to look at the WBID, which when set to any
>value other than 23 (which we will need to reserve), then we know this
>packet is a discovery request, and process it accordingly.
>
>--------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (772, 1233) -------->
><-------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (1233, 772) ---------
>
>The WBID value of 23 will be an indication that the DTLS session is
>being established... at this point all packets are from now on fed into
>the DTLS engine.
>
>If NAT is used, it is possible that the WTP's source IP address is used
>for multiple WTPs. In this case, the AC can identify each WTP using the
>DTLS credentials. The AC can then delete the old DTLS SAs (control and
>optionally data), that are associated with the WTP's credentials.
>Alternatively, the AC could simply wait for the sessions to expire.
>
>
>Pat Calhoun
>CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
>Cisco Systems
>
> 
>
>
>________________________________
>
>	From: Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com] 
>	Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:08 AM
>	To: Dorothy Stanley; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Michael Montemurro
>	Cc: capwap@frascone.com
>	Subject: need clarification on UDP ports
>	
>	
>	Pat, Mike, Dorothy:
>	 
>	I have a question based on v03 of the capwap spec.
>	In section 3.1, the spec mentions well-known UDP
>	ports for the CAPWAP control and data packets.
>	 
>	There are four kinds of CAPWAP packets:
>	1. DTLS protected control packets
>	2. Unprotected control packets
>	3. Unprotected data packets
>	4. (Optional) DTLS protected data packets
>	 
>	Will there be 4 well-known UDP port numbers ?
>	 
>	1, 2 and 3 will be present simultaneously in any
>	deployment. 3 and 4 may co-exist in a deployment
>	if some data channels are encrypted and some not.
>	There has to be a way to distinguish these four 
>	kinds of packets.  The draft is not clear about how 
>	this is done.
>	 
>	Thanks,
>	   Abhijit
>	
>	
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>[NKA] Scott, so you agree that the logic which I have explained for handling
>discovery/DTLS packets is correct, but you feel that it would result in slower
>synchronization between WTP and AC FSM?

Actually, no, I don't agree. A discovery packet should be deterministically treated as a discovery packet - not sometimes erroneously treated as a dtls packet. I think introducing this ambiguity is unnecessary, to say the least. 

I think Abhijit's point is correct: it should be very clear whether a packet is control, data, discovery, and protected vs unprotected. Either we can do that by using more ports, or we can find another way. But I don't think shoving a discovery packet into the dtls engine is "a good thing".

Scott



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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 19 20:04:46 2006
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:02:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>
To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
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Hi Pat and Charles,=0A  =0ASection 8.5A.6 in 802.11r D3 describes the key d=
istribution protocol. It is true that earlier versions like D2.2 did not ha=
ve it.=0ASo my Local MAC scenarios were based on this protocol.=0A  The key=
 distribution protocol makes it unnecessary to use the context transfer ahe=
ad of time and it is quite nice to generate and transfer the key in a just-=
in-time manner. I thought it was good and used it in CAPWAPRP.=0A=0A  Regar=
ds,=0A=0ABehcet =0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Pat Calhoun (paca=
lhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>=0ATo: sarikaya@ieee.org; capwap <capwap@frascone=
.com>=0ASent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:31:51 AM=0ASubject: Re: [Capwap=
] CAPWAP for 802.11r=0A=0ABehcet,=0A=0AThe architecture laid out in your sp=
ecification seems to conflict with=0Athe CAPWAP architecture. =0A=0AA coupl=
e of specific concerns before I get into the meat of the=0Adocument:=0A=0A =
  > We use [802.11r] key distribution protocol for transfering key=0Acontex=
t=0A   > for Local MAC WTPs.=0A=0AThe latest 802.11r draft does not define =
a key distribution protocol to=0Amove key context across WTPs (or APs). So =
I am not sure what we are=0Arefering to.=0A=0A   > AC next generates PMK-R1=
 for R1 key holder (R1KH), i.e. the WTP.=0AAC=0A   > is now in a position t=
o transfer PMK-R1 context and associated=0A   > authorization to the WTP.  =
R1KH and STA perform a 4-way handshake=0Aand=0A   > generate the session ke=
y, PTK.=0A=0AThe CAPWAP protocol does not assume that the PMK is ever trans=
ferred=0Adown into the WTP. Furthermore, the protocol assumes the authentic=
ator=0Aresides in the AC - not the WTP. So this statement seems to change t=
he=0Afundamental architecture of the CAPWAP protocol.=0A=0AI will have many=
 additional questions once I read the specification=0Acompletely, but first=
 want to make sure that we agree on whether the=0Aspec is in scope or not (=
by answering the above questions).=0A=0APat Calhoun=0ACTO, Wireless Network=
ing Business Unit=0ACisco Systems=0A=0A =0A=0A> -----Original Message-----=
=0A> From: Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com] =0A> Sent: Wed=
nesday, October 18, 2006 12:43 AM=0A> To: capwap=0A> Subject: [Capwap] CAPW=
AP for 802.11r=0A> =0A> Pat and all,=0A> =0A> The link:=0A> http://www.ietf=
.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fast=0A> bss-00.txt=0A> is now o=
n.=0A> =0A> Regards,=0A> =0A> --behcet=0A> =0A> ----- Original Message ----=
=0A> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>=0A> To: Behcet Sarik=
aya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>=0A> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:01:11 P=
M=0A> Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r=0A> =0A> ok, I will once it =
becomes available.=0A>  =0A> =0A> Pat Calhoun=0A> CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business Unit=0A> Cisco Systems=0A> =0A>  =0A> =0A>     =0A> --------------=
------------------------------------------------=0A> ----------=0A>     *Fr=
om:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]=0A>     *Sent:* Mond=
ay, October 16, 2006 4:41 PM=0A>     *To:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@f=
rascone.com=0A>     *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r=0A> =0A>    =
 Pat,=0A> =0A> =0A>     ----- Original Message ----=0A>     From: Pat Calho=
un (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>=0A>     To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarik=
aya@yahoo.com>; =0A> capwap@frascone.com=0A>     Sent: Monday, October 16, =
2006 1:02:43 PM=0A>     Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r=0A> =0A>  =
   Behcet,=0A>      =0A>     I believe we've discussed this idea a few time=
s, and I am still=0A>     unsure why we believe CAPWAP needs to define anyt=
hing to support=0A>     TGr. The current CAPWAP protocol is sufficient to s=
upport the=0A>     upcoming standard.=0A> =0A>     =3D=3D>=0A>     The basi=
s is there but we need several extensions.=0A>     Please read the draft an=
d comment, then we can make a =0A> more informed=0A>     decision, I think.=
=0A> =0A> =0A>     Pat Calhoun=0A>     CTO, Wireless Networking Business Un=
it=0A>     Cisco Systems=0A> =0A>      =0A>     Regards,=0A> =0A>     --beh=
cet=0A> =0A>         =0A> -------------------------------------------------=
-------------=0A> ----------=0A>         *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:be=
hcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]=0A>         *Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:33=
 AM=0A>         *To:* capwap@frascone.com=0A>         *Subject:* [Capwap] C=
APWAP for 802.11r=0A> =0A>         Dear all,=0A>           I submitted a dr=
aft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in =0A> 802.11R Domains.=0A>         It shou=
ld be available soon at the following link:=0A> =0A>         =0A> http://ww=
w.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fast=0A> bss-00.txt=0A> =
=0A>         Regards,=0A> =0A>         Behcet=0A> =0A> ____________________=
_____________________________________________=0A> To unsubscribe or modify =
your subscription options, please visit:=0A> http://lists.frascone.com/mail=
man/listinfo/capwap=0A> =0A> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/=
capwap=0A> =0A_____________________________________________________________=
____=0ATo unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:=0A=
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=0A=0AArchives: http://lis=
ts.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
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<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;f=
ont-size:12pt"><div style=3D"font-family: courier,monaco,monospace,sans-ser=
if; font-size: 12pt;">Hi Pat and Charles,<br>&nbsp; <br>Section 8.5A.6 in 8=
02.11r D3 describes the key distribution protocol. It is true that earlier =
versions like D2.2 did not have it.<br>So my Local MAC scenarios were based=
 on this protocol.<br>&nbsp; The key distribution protocol makes it unneces=
sary to use the context transfer ahead of time and it is quite nice to gene=
rate and transfer the key in a just-in-time manner. I thought it was good a=
nd used it in CAPWAPRP.<br><br>&nbsp; Regards,<br><br>Behcet <br><br><div s=
tyle=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;=
">----- Original Message ----<br>From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) &lt;pcalhoun@=
cisco.com&gt;<br>To: sarikaya@ieee.org; capwap &lt;capwap@frascone.com&gt;<=
br>Sent: Thursday,
 October 19, 2006 11:31:51 AM<br>Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<b=
r><br><div>Behcet,<br><br>The architecture laid out in your specification s=
eems to conflict with<br>the CAPWAP architecture. <br><br>A couple of speci=
fic concerns before I get into the meat of the<br>document:<br><br>&nbsp;&n=
bsp; &gt; We use [802.11r] key distribution protocol for transfering key<br=
>context<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; for Local MAC WTPs.<br><br>The latest 802.11r=
 draft does not define a key distribution protocol to<br>move key context a=
cross WTPs (or APs). So I am not sure what we are<br>refering to.<br><br>&n=
bsp;&nbsp; &gt; AC next generates PMK-R1 for R1 key holder (R1KH), i.e. the=
 WTP.<br>AC<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; is now in a position to transfer PMK-R1 co=
ntext and associated<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; authorization to the WTP.&nbsp;&n=
bsp;R1KH and STA perform a 4-way handshake<br>and<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; gene=
rate the session key, PTK.<br><br>The CAPWAP protocol does not assume that =
the PMK is
 ever transferred<br>down into the WTP. Furthermore, the protocol assumes t=
he authenticator<br>resides in the AC - not the WTP. So this statement seem=
s to change the<br>fundamental architecture of the CAPWAP protocol.<br><br>=
I will have many additional questions once I read the specification<br>comp=
letely, but first want to make sure that we agree on whether the<br>spec is=
 in scope or not (by answering the above questions).<br><br>Pat Calhoun<br>=
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit<br>Cisco Systems<br><br> <br><br>&gt=
; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt; From: Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsa=
rikaya@yahoo.com] <br>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:43 AM<br>&g=
t; To: capwap<br>&gt; Subject: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<br>&gt; <br>&gt;=
 Pat and all,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; The link:<br>&gt; <a target=3D"_blank" href=
=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fast">http://=
www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fast</a><br>&gt; bss-00.=
txt<br>&gt; is now
 on.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Regards,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; --behcet<br>&gt; <br>&gt; -=
---- Original Message ----<br>&gt; From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) &lt;pcalhou=
n@cisco.com&gt;<br>&gt; To: Behcet Sarikaya &lt;behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com&gt=
;<br>&gt; Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:01:11 PM<br>&gt; Subject: RE: [C=
apwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<br>&gt; <br>&gt; ok, I will once it becomes avail=
able.<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Pat Calhoun<br>&gt; CTO, Wireles=
s Networking Business Unit<br>&gt; Cisco Systems<br>&gt; <br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;<br>&gt; <br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>&gt; ----------------------=
----------------------------------------<br>&gt; ----------<br>&gt;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]<=
br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2006 4:41 PM<br=
>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *To:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone=
.com<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802=
.11r<br>&gt;
 <br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pat,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; ----- Original Message ----<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; F=
rom: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) &lt;pcalhoun@cisco.com&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; To: Behcet Sarikaya &lt;behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com&gt;; <br>&gt; =
capwap@frascone.com<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sent: Monday, October 1=
6, 2006 1:02:43 PM<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Subject: RE: [Capwap] CA=
PWAP for 802.11r<br>&gt; <br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Behcet,<br>&gt;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I believ=
e we've discussed this idea a few times, and I am still<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; unsure why we believe CAPWAP needs to define anything to suppo=
rt<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TGr. The current CAPWAP protocol is suff=
icient to support the<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; upcoming standard.<br=
>&gt; <br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D=3D&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; The basis
 is there but we need several extensions.<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; P=
lease read the draft and comment, then we can make a <br>&gt; more informed=
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; decision, I think.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&g=
t;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pat Calhoun<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CTO,=
 Wireless Networking Business Unit<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Cisco Sy=
stems<br>&gt; <br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Regards,<br>&gt; <br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --behcet<=
br>&gt; <br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>&gt; -=
-------------------------------------------------------------<br>&gt; -----=
-----<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *From:* Behce=
t Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:33 AM<br>&gt=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *To:*
 capwap@frascone.com<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; *Subject:* [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<br>&gt; <br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Dear all,<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Pro=
tocol in <br>&gt; 802.11R Domains.<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It should be available soon at the following link:<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>&gt; <a target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capw=
ap-fast">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fast</a>=
<br>&gt; bss-00.txt<br>&gt; <br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; Regards,<br>&gt; <br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; Behcet<br>&gt; <br>&gt; __________________________________________=
_______________________<br>&gt; To unsubscribe or modify your subscription =
options, please
 visit:<br>&gt; <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mail=
man/listinfo/capwap">http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</a><=
br>&gt; <br>&gt; Archives: <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://lists.frasco=
ne.com/pipermail/capwap">http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap</a><br>=
&gt; <br>_________________________________________________________________<=
br>To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<br><a =
target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=
">http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</a><br><br>Archives: <a=
 target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap">http=
://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap</a><br></div></div><br></div></div><=
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
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To: "Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>,
	"Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>,
	"Abhijit Choudhury" <Abhijit@sinett.com>,
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I agree with Scott - it is important that we come up with a solution
that is unambiguous and works even if packet formats for dtls change. 

It seems that we (capwap) are one of the first folks trying to use DTLS.
It would be good to know how other folks (if any) have used DTLS for
their applications. If someone has already solved the "discovery to
dtls-secure" like problem before, then it would be good to understand
how they did it and maybe use a similar approach (rather than re-invent
the wheel). In that regard, does anyone know of other groups using dtls
to secure their protocol?

Would having 3 UDP ports solve the problem:
(a) capwap-open control port : All unencrypted capwap control packets go
on this channel
(b) capwap-open data port : All unencrypted capwap data packets go on
this channel
(b) capwap-secure port: All dtls encrypted capwap data/control packets
go on this channel. Demux for data vs control happens after decryption.

We may need more ports if we need to support different QoS levels (as
pointed by Scott)- that to me is a bigger problem. Wondering what the
group thinks....

Thanks.

-Puneet

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] 
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:42 PM
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Abhijit Choudhury; Dorothy Stanley; Michael
Montemurro
Cc: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports

You know, after seeing my post on this topic yesterday, I thought maybe
my sarcasm was a bit overdone, and I actually regretted that post. But
now, after seeing what sort of hoops you're willing to jump through to
avoid that much simpler approach at apparently any cost... well, now I'm
not so sure.

Sigh. Comments inline...

<extraneous text elided...>
>The AC maintains a DTLS SA table which consists of the WTP's IP address

>and UDP port numbers. When the AC receives a Discovery Request on the 
>CAPWAP control port, it performs a lookup to determine whether the 
>IP/Port information matches the DTLS SA table. If the IP/Port does not 
>match an entry in the DTLS SA table, the AC responds with a Discovery 
>response and waits for a successful DTLS setup, which would create a 
>new DTLS SA. If there is a match, then the packet is a DTLS encrypted 
>payload, which is sent to the DTLS stack. The following is an example 
>of the packet exchange (note the ports used here are for illustration 
>purposes only):
>
>WTP                                                       AC
>(WTP Picks a pseudo-random source port)
>----- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Request (662, 1233) ------>
><---- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Response (1233, 662) ------
>
>Using Scott's recommendation to look at the WBID, which when set to any

>value other than 23 (which we will need to reserve), then we know this 
>packet is a discovery request, and process it accordingly. One 
>alternative to reserving a WBID would be to require that the Reserved 
>field in the CAPWAP header be set to '111', which would provide another

>way to differentiate the packets.

Let's stop here, because this is where it starts getting twisted. I
didn't recommend this sort of hack. There are two major flaws to this
approach. The first is that you assume that the DTLS header format will
not change. That's probably unwise, given that it is a new protocol.
This early in the game, anything after the version field is fair game,
and hacking based on assumptions of immutability is (in my opinion, at
least) A Bad Thing (tm).

The second issue here is that you're not looking carefully at the DTLS
header alignment as it currently exists. Each version change results in
the first version byte being decremented. It is currently FE, and the
next will be FD, then FC, and so on. Look at what this means for the
WBID field (which, by the way, could *also* be changed before we've
finished with capwap):

     0                   1                   2                   3
     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |0 0 0 1|0 1 1 0 1|1 1 1 1 1|1 0 1 1 1|1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0|
    |VERSION|   RID   | HLEN    |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|    FLAGS      |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/
    |    type       |     protocol version          |  epoch
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/
FEFF                |1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1|
                    +---------------+---------------+
FDFF                |1 1 1 1 1 1 0 1|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1|
                    +---------------+---------------+
FCFF                |1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1|
                    +---------------+---------------+
FBFF                |1 1 1 1 1 0 1 1|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1|
                    +---------------+---------------+
FAFF                |1 1 1 1 1 0 1 0|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1|
                    +---------------+---------------+

Since there are two WBID bits affected, your scheme requires that there
be at least 4 untouchable WBID values (assuming we don't change the
capwap header): 7, 15, 23, and 31. This is starting to sound more than a
little bit hacky, and certainly not something you want to implement in
hardware.

I won't go line by line on the stuff below, as this is more than I can
ask people to bear. I have only two points to make here: 

1) regarding the comment below where you say "Furthermore, I trust an
authenticated payload much more than a bit 'in the clear'",  I'm
wondering: why are unauthenticated values in the UDP and IP headers more
trustworthy than values following them? Think about it.

2) look at the signalling complexity you are adding! And all this to
avoid ...what, exactly?


Scott




>

>--------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (662, 1233) -------->
><-------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (1233, 662) ---------
>
>The WBID value of 23 will be an indication that the DTLS session is 
>being established (or the alternative proposed above)... at this point 
>all packets are from now on fed into the DTLS engine. Once the DTLS 
>session is established, all CAPWAP packets will be marked internally as

>'Application Data', and once decrypted will be sent back into the 
>CAPWAP module for processing...
>
>-------- CAPWAP Control/Join Request (662, 1233) ---------> (includes 
>support for DTLS/Data)
><------- CAPWAP Control/Join Response (1233, 662) --------- (Dictates 
>whether DTLS is to be used on data plane, and a random cookie)
>
>When inactivity occurs over the control plane, the keepalive is sent to

>keep the session alive (also useful for NAT traversal):
>
>------- CAPWAP Control/Keepalive Request (662, 1233) ----->
><------ CAPWAP Control/Keepalive Response (1233, 662) -----
>
>The following is optional, and occurs if DTLS needs to be used on the 
>data plane UDP port:
>
>----------- DTLS Session Setup/Data (685, 1234) ---------->
><---------- DTLS Session Setup/Data (1234, 685) -----------
>
>Again, the WBID of 23 is used to identify the DTLS packet. When used 
>and established, all CAPWAP data packets will be marked as 'Application

>Data' within DTLS. So these packets would pop back out of the DTLS 
>stack for CAPWAP processing. Yes, this requires that the data plane 
>remember the configuration enforced by the AC, and therefore it does 
>not mark each packet as "with DTLS" or "without DTLS". We can do this, 
>but frankly it provides little value because ultimately, if DTLS was 
>required and a packet is sent in the clear, it will be dropped anyhow.
>Furthermore, I trust an authenticated payload much more than a bit "in 
>the clear".
>
>A specialized packet is then sent on the data plane to create the 
>correlation between the control and data plane sessions. A new bit in 
>the CAPWAP header, which I will call 'D' (for Data Management) is set 
>so this gets treated as a specialized packet on the data plane UDP
port:
>
>---------- CAPWAP Data/Announce Req (685, 1234) ----------> (Including 
>the cookie to bind to control channel)
><--------- CAPWAP Data/Announce resp (1234, 685) ----------
>
>NOTE: Another alternative to this scheme is to include a session 
>identifier in the header, which provides the correlation between the 
>control and data channel. This would be much simpler to implement, and 
>not require special processing of the data plane. However, if folks 
>believe that keeping the NAT session fresh, then we need some mechanism

>to keep the channel alive. If this is found to be desirable/required, 
>then a periodic exchange needs to occur to keep the NAT table entry 
>fresh (again, with the 'D' bit set):
>
>------- CAPWAP Data/Keepalive Request (685, 1234) -------->
><------ CAPWAP Data/Keepalive Response (1234, 685) --------
>
>Should the WTP fail, it would pick a new source UDP port for both the 
>control and data plane, and send a Discovery Request using the control 
>UDP port. It is important to note that the longevity of the uniqueness 
>characteristics of the UDP port is not very long (e.g., one day after 
>reboot). This is a new requirement on the WTP, but not unrealistic 
>since
>802.11 APs have to do this for the RADIUS protocol today (to maintain 
>unique session identifiers). The AC does not flush its current DTLS SA 
>until the DTLS exchange is complete (and successful).
>
>WTP                                                       AC
>(WTP picks a new pseudo-random source port)
>----- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Request (772, 1233) ------>
><---- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Response (1233, 772) ------
>
>Using Scott's recommendation to look at the WBID, which when set to any

>value other than 23 (which we will need to reserve), then we know this 
>packet is a discovery request, and process it accordingly.
>
>--------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (772, 1233) -------->
><-------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (1233, 772) ---------
>
>The WBID value of 23 will be an indication that the DTLS session is 
>being established... at this point all packets are from now on fed into

>the DTLS engine.
>
>If NAT is used, it is possible that the WTP's source IP address is used

>for multiple WTPs. In this case, the AC can identify each WTP using the

>DTLS credentials. The AC can then delete the old DTLS SAs (control and 
>optionally data), that are associated with the WTP's credentials.
>Alternatively, the AC could simply wait for the sessions to expire.
>
>
>Pat Calhoun
>CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
>Cisco Systems
>
> 
>
>
>________________________________
>
>	From: Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com] 
>	Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:08 AM
>	To: Dorothy Stanley; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Michael Montemurro
>	Cc: capwap@frascone.com
>	Subject: need clarification on UDP ports
>	
>	
>	Pat, Mike, Dorothy:
>	 
>	I have a question based on v03 of the capwap spec.
>	In section 3.1, the spec mentions well-known UDP
>	ports for the CAPWAP control and data packets.
>	 
>	There are four kinds of CAPWAP packets:
>	1. DTLS protected control packets
>	2. Unprotected control packets
>	3. Unprotected data packets
>	4. (Optional) DTLS protected data packets
>	 
>	Will there be 4 well-known UDP port numbers ?
>	 
>	1, 2 and 3 will be present simultaneously in any
>	deployment. 3 and 4 may co-exist in a deployment
>	if some data channels are encrypted and some not.
>	There has to be a way to distinguish these four 
>	kinds of packets.  The draft is not clear about how 
>	this is done.
>	 
>	Thanks,
>	   Abhijit
>	
>	
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Hi Scott and all,

That is an excellent summary of the issue. Would suggest including the
whole analysis into the Security Consideration of the CAPWAP spec
regardless which final approach the group decides to take (since this
issue is specific to/introduced by CAPWAP architecture).

cheers

Cheng Hong

  

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Kelly [mailto:skelly@arubanetworks.com] 
> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 2:10 AM
> To: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i 
> Considerations
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> Charles and I have been discussing the keyrsc issue, and 
> we're in agreement on an opinion of the overall security 
> implications. 
> 
> To summarize briefly, there are small exposures in either 
> case which are both pretty trivial. The small replay exposure 
> is probably the more acceptable of the two, given the 
> complexity level of the proposed 'fix'.
> The added complexity of passing the KCK to the WTP together 
> with the slight associated exposure tips the scale slightly 
> more toward the "just choose a keyrsc value that will work 
> (zero or a better one if you know it)" solution.
> 
> If you want the background considerations, a more detailed 
> discussion follows. Otherwise, there you have it.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> ----
> 1. Setting KeyRSC = 0
> 
> In the current CAPWAP protocol, the 4-way handshake occurs 
> between the AC and the STA, and once this is complete, the AC 
> pushes the 802.11 cryptographic key material (the PTK) to the 
> WTP. In cases where a GTK (the group transient key, which is 
> used to cryptographically protect broadcast/multicast 
> traffic) is already active for the ESSID the STA is 
> associating to, the GTK is identified in message 3 of the 
> 4-way handshake, along with the current receive sequence 
> counter (KeyRSC) for messages protected under that key. Since 
> the WTP maintains the active KeyRSC, the AC currently has no 
> way to know precisely what the correct value is at the point 
> at which message 3 is constructed. To work around this, LWAPP 
> designers chose to have the AC simply set this value to 0.
> 
> This decision does not affect the WTP, who maintains this 
> counter; it only affects the STA. Hence, there is no 
> interoperability implication to this behavior. The STA, upon 
> receiving the first valid broadcast/multicast message from 
> the WTP, will update its RSC to the correct value, and will 
> be synchronized with the WTP's value from then on.
> 
> The security consequences of this approach are as follows:
> 
> - the period beginning when the STA installs the GTK and 
> KeyRSC and ending when the STA receives the first valid 
> bcast/mcast message from the WTP represents a window of 
> opportuntity for an attacker
> 
> - the window has two dimensions: the time it remains open, 
> and the relative width, which is measured in terms of the 
> difference between the current valid KeyRSC value and 0 (i.e. 
> the magnitude of the current
> KeyRSC)
> 
> - so long as this window remains open, an adversary could 
> replay previous valid bcast/mcast messages, and so long as 
> those messages are replayed in monotonically increasing order 
> with respect to the RSC value, the STA would accept these 
> messages as valid. The higher the current KeyRSC, the more 
> messages an adversary could potentially replay, assuming no 
> valid bcast/mcast messages were sent by the WTP (i.e. the 
> window remained open).
> 
> 1.1 Mitigating Circumstances
> 
> - typical wireless networks with a small population of users 
> will see multiple broadcasts per second, so this window will 
> normally be open for a very short (sub-second) interval.
> 
> - an unauthenticated (outsider) adversary would be restricted 
> to blindly playing back mcast/bcast traffic; while the 
> adverary could make some inferences with respect to the 
> encrypted traffic type based on traffic analysis techniques, 
> the adversary could not be certain of what message content he 
> was replaying.
> 
> - an authenticated adversary would be capable of selectively 
> playing back mcast/bcast messages whose content is known, but 
> that same adversary could generate the same (or similar) 
> messages in real-time even after the STA's KeyRSC is updated. 
> That is, there is little benefit in replaying existing 
> messages rather than simply constructing new ones.
> 
> - if there are mcast/bcast message streams suitable for 
> launching an attack, in order to know that such an attack is 
> present in the recorded stream, the attacker would with high 
> probablility need to be an insider
> - in which case replay capability is not a necessary 
> condition for launching the attack.
> 
> 1.2 Conclusions
> 
> Setting the KeyRSC to 0 opens a small window of opportunity 
> during which previously transmitted mcast/bcast traffic could 
> be replayed. While this could have operational implications 
> (e.g. the STA might instantiate stale ARP entries, receive 
> stale NetBIOS packets to which it may respond, or receive 
> other invalid information that somehow 'contaminates' its 
> view of the network), we believe the impact would be both 
> detectable and quite small in a reasonably robust STA. 
> 
> Also, the primary threat introduced pertains to an outsider 
> blindly playing back recorded data, as an insider would have 
> knowledge of the group key, and so rather than wasting time 
> collecting packets off the air and attempting to replay them 
> within a window of opportunity of indefinite size, the 
> adversary would be better advised to simply generate the 
> spurious packets. That is, an insider adversary has better 
> tools at his disposal than this window of opportunity provides.
> 
> While it is certainly prudent to narrow the window as much as 
> is practicable, this must be weighed carefully against the 
> complexity of the solution vs the minimal threat level this 
> represents. 
> 
> 
> 2. WTP puts current KeyRSC into message 3
> 
> One proposed solution the problem of the AC not knowing the 
> current KeyRSC entails having the WTP insert the correct 
> value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake. This requires the 
> WTP to know the Key Confirmation Key (KCK) in order to 
> compute the MIC on the message. Currently, this value is only 
> known to the AC and STA.
> 
> The security considerations for this approach are as follows:
> 
> - currently, the WTP has no knowledge of the KCK; having this 
> value would provide the WTP with the ability to modify the 
> RSN Information Element (IE) containing the supported 
> cryptographic algorithms advertised by the AC during the 
> association process. This IE is included in this message 
> explicitly because the MIC computation provides a secure 
> mechanism for validating the value used during association 
> against this authenticated value. That mechanism would now be 
> open to subversion, and in particular, the WTP would have the 
> ability to downgrade the cryptographic algorithms the AC is 
> advertising without the ACs knowledge.
> 
> 2.1 Mitigating Circumstances
> 
> - an evil WTP would also have access to the PTK once the 
> 4-way handshake completes. Almost anything that could be 
> accomplished via a downgrade attack could also be 
> accomplished by passing off the PTK to a collaborator.
> 
> - the downgraded RSN IE's used during association could be 
> detected using sniffers
> 
> - that fact that STAs are associating with downgraded 
> capabilities could be detected via log inspection
> 
> 2.2 Conclusions
> 
> The minimal exposure introduced by communicating the KCK to 
> the WTP does not represent a signficant threat due to the 
> fact that the WTP also possesses the PTK. This implies that 
> appropriate measures are already in place to ensure the 
> trustworthiness of the WTP. While one could dream up 
> scenarios in which a collaborating evil STA took advantage of 
> the downgraded cryptographic algorithms to somehow attack an 
> unsuspecting STA, there are plenty of ways in which the evil 
> WTP could communicate the PTK to the evil STA, so possession 
> of the KCK adds little adversarial capability.
> 
> 
> 3. Recommendations
> 
> Security analysis is often very subtle, and there is 
> certainly some art involved. This appears to be one of those 
> difficult cases in which some art will be required. Both 
> approaches to this problem entail vulnerabilities. The 
> question is, do these represent real-world threats from a 
> practical standpoint? 
> 
> In terms of the small window of opportunity opened by setting 
> KeyRSC=0, it is difficult to imagine how this could be 
> leveraged by an outsider adversary, especially given that the 
> window size will be sub-second on typical networks. And it's 
> even more of a stretch to imagine an insider (who has access 
> to the GTK and the ability to send legitimate bcast/mcast 
> frames) choosing this avenue for an attack. 
> 
> Odds seem very much in our favor that nothing bad will happen 
> if we leave this small window open, and after reviewing this 
> briefly, Russ Housley agrees.
> 
> In terms of the potential downgrade vulnerability introduced 
> by giving the KCK to a subverted WTP, it seems clear that 
> there most likely would be bigger worries there. It's not 
> totally impossible to cook up an attack scenario, but there 
> are almost certainly simpler avenues of attack.
> 
> Still, on a practical level, pushing the KCK to the WTP adds 
> complexity.
> The KCK would have to be delivered to the WTP somehow (and in 
> an acknowledged CAPWAP control message, while the 4-way 
> handshake is carried in the data channel). This would add 
> latency to the association process (already a problem as it 
> is, and this would only make it worse).
> 
> Both approaches have what appear to be minor security 
> implications, yet neither approach invites any obvious 
> attack. It is entirely possible that there is no practical 
> way to exploit the weaknesses exposed in either case, but it 
> is also at least slightly possible that some subtle set of 
> circumstances might lead to an exploit in one case or the 
> other - we simply cannot be certain.
> 
> Taking these things into consideration, it seems like a good 
> operational compromise to assume the limited risk associated 
> with the minimally open replay window, while providing 
> appropriate security recommendations to try to narrow it if 
> it is possible to do so with minimal added complexity.
> --------------------------------
> 
> Let us know if you have any further questions on this.
> 
> Scott
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
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From akstcartistruemnsdgs@artistrue.com Fri Oct 20 09:00:57 2006
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Hi Mariano, look at it its' 27% UP! I mentioned about this
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Patti.

a common flirt than she has been here. the officers will find women better worth their notice. let us
"i do assure you, sir, that i have no pretensions whatever to that kind of elegance which consists



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From: Charles Clancy <clancy@cs.umd.edu>
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Behcet,

11R D3 8.5A.6 (attached for those interested) defines the basic 
properties and summarizes the exchanges, but I don't see any packet 
formats, transport mechanism, link security mechanism, or method for 
establishing a trust relationship between the MDC and possible KHs.

In CAPWAP, there's no AAA context to transfer, because the AAA context 
always resides at the AC.  Using the existing mechanism for key 
distribution (via Add Mobile messages) is sufficient for transporting 
PTKs to the WTPs.

-- 
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy

Behcet Sarikaya wrote:
> Hi Pat and Charles,
>  
> Section 8.5A.6 in 802.11r D3 describes the key distribution protocol. It 
> is true that earlier versions like D2.2 did not have it.
> So my Local MAC scenarios were based on this protocol.
>   The key distribution protocol makes it unnecessary to use the context 
> transfer ahead of time and it is quite nice to generate and transfer the 
> key in a just-in-time manner. I thought it was good and used it in CAPWAPRP.
> 
>   Regards,
> 
> Behcet
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
> To: sarikaya@ieee.org; capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:31:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
> 
> Behcet,
> 
> The architecture laid out in your specification seems to conflict with
> the CAPWAP architecture.
> 
> A couple of specific concerns before I get into the meat of the
> document:
> 
>    > We use [802.11r] key distribution protocol for transfering key
> context
>    > for Local MAC WTPs.
> 
> The latest 802.11r draft does not define a key distribution protocol to
> move key context across WTPs (or APs). So I am not sure what we are
> refering to.
> 
>    > AC next generates PMK-R1 for R1 key holder (R1KH), i.e. the WTP.
> AC
>    > is now in a position to transfer PMK-R1 context and associated
>    > authorization to the WTP.  R1KH and STA perform a 4-way handshake
> and
>    > generate the session key, PTK.
> 
> The CAPWAP protocol does not assume that the PMK is ever transferred
> down into the WTP. Furthermore, the protocol assumes the authenticator
> resides in the AC - not the WTP. So this statement seems to change the
> fundamental architecture of the CAPWAP protocol.
> 
> I will have many additional questions once I read the specification
> completely, but first want to make sure that we agree on whether the
> spec is in scope or not (by answering the above questions).
> 
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
> 
> 
> 
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]
>  > Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:43 AM
>  > To: capwap
>  > Subject: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>  >
>  > Pat and all,
>  >
>  > The link:
>  > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fast
>  > bss-00.txt
>  > is now on.
>  >
>  > Regards,
>  >
>  > --behcet
>  >
>  > ----- Original Message ----
>  > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
>  > To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>
>  > Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:01:11 PM
>  > Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>  >
>  > ok, I will once it becomes available.
>  >  
>  >
>  > Pat Calhoun
>  > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
>  > Cisco Systems
>  >
>  >  
>  >
>  >    
>  > --------------------------------------------------------------
>  > ----------
>  >     *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]
>  >     *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2006 4:41 PM
>  >     *To:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com
>  >     *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>  >
>  >     Pat,
>  >
>  >
>  >     ----- Original Message ----
>  >     From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
>  >     To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>;
>  > capwap@frascone.com
>  >     Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:02:43 PM
>  >     Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>  >
>  >     Behcet,
>  >      
>  >     I believe we've discussed this idea a few times, and I am still
>  >     unsure why we believe CAPWAP needs to define anything to support
>  >     TGr. The current CAPWAP protocol is sufficient to support the
>  >     upcoming standard.
>  >
>  >     ==>
>  >     The basis is there but we need several extensions.
>  >     Please read the draft and comment, then we can make a
>  > more informed
>  >     decision, I think.
>  >
>  >
>  >     Pat Calhoun
>  >     CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
>  >     Cisco Systems
>  >
>  >      
>  >     Regards,
>  >
>  >     --behcet
>  >
>  >        
>  > --------------------------------------------------------------
>  > ----------
>  >         *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]
>  >         *Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:33 AM
>  >         *To:* capwap@frascone.com
>  >         *Subject:* [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>  >
>  >         Dear all,
>  >           I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in
>  > 802.11R Domains.
>  >         It should be available soon at the following link:
>  >
>  >        
>  > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fast
>  > bss-00.txt
>  >
>  >         Regards,
>  >
>  >         Behcet
>  >
>  > _________________________________________________________________
>  > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
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>  >
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--------------030908010301070905030203
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8.5A.6 PMK-R1 distribution within a mobility domain

The following procedures are used to distribute PMK-R1s.

The STA first derives PMK-R0 keys for use in fast BSS transitions (via
the FT Initial Association procedures defined in clause 8A.2)
utilizing information from the target AP as defined in 8.5A.4. When
the IEEE 802.1X AKM is used to establish keys, the PMK-R0 Key Holder
derives the PMK-R0 key utilizing the MSK acquired through EAP based
authentication.

The PMK-R0 shall be stored in a component called the PMK-R0 Key
Holder. Each PMK-R0 Key Holder is responsible for deriving a PMK-R1
key for key for each PMK-R1 Key Holder in the mobility domain. The
PMK-R1 shall be stored in a component called the PMK-R1 Key
Holder. PMK-R1 keys are distributed to PMK-R1 Key Holders by the
PMK-R0 Key Holder using a secure three party protocol described
herein.

The Mobility Domain Controller (MDC) shall mutually authenticate and
authorize all members of the mobility domain that can be Key
Holders. Using the MDC all Key Holders can establish security
associations with each other. The identities they use during the
authentication process shall be their NAS-Id which is identical to the
information included in the NASID IE in all beacons and probe
responses.

The Key Distribution Protocol has the following properties
- Authentication of entities involved in key distribution
- Confidentiality of the key distribution
- Authorization of the status of a PMK-R1 holder
- Validation of the authorization
- Receipt of the key is acknowledged
- Correctness of the authorization attributes assigned to the STA

The Key Distribution Protocol is initiated by the STA by including an
R1DIST Information element along with other Fast BSS Transition
Information Elements in either Authentication or Action frames. The
token of this element shall be the AES-KeyWrap of a sixteen (16) octet
random number chosen by the STA, called Ns, concatenated with the
identity of the target AP as determined by the NASID Information
Element in its beacons and probe responses. The key used to perform
this wrapping shall be "mk" described in section 8.5A.4.

The target AP shall extract the token from the R1DIST Information
Element and send it along with the MAC address of the STA to the R0KH
identified in the FTIE under the protection of the security
association the target AP (a Key Holder) shares with the PMK-R0 Key
Holder. If the target AP does not recognize the R0KH in the FTIE or
does not have a security association with it authentication fails with
status 38 ("the request has not been successful as one or more
parameters have invalid values").

Upon receipt of this message the R0KH looks up the PMK-R0 security
association it shares with the STA based upon the MAC address in the
message. It then unwraps the token using "mk" describe in section
8.5A.4. If the unwrapping fails or the R0KH does not have a PMK-R0
security association for that STA it returns a failure message to the
target AP which then fails the authentication attempt with status
38. The R0KH compares the NAS-Id from the unwrapped token with the
identity the target AP used during when establishing its shared
security association. If the two do not match the R0KH returns a
failure message to the target AP which then fails the authentication
attempt with status 38. The R0KH then chooses a sixteen (16) octet
random number, called Na, and constructs a message back to the target
AP consisting of the STA's MAC address, Ns, Na, the PMK-R1, the PMK-R1
Name, all authorization attributes associated with PMKR0 (e.g. session
lifetime), and a token representing an AES-KeyWrapping of the NAS-Id
of the target AP from the shared security association and Na. The
wrapping shall use "mk" described in section 8.5A.4.

Upon receipt of this message the target AP shall instantiate a PMK-R1
security association and construct either an Authentication response
frame or response action frame depending on the type of request
received originally. This frame will include, along with other Fast
BSS Transition IEs, an RT1DIST IE which shall encapsulate the token it
received from the PMK-R0 Key Holder, and an R1DISTV IE which shall
consist of the digest of SHA-256(Ns|Na).

Upon receipt of this frame the STA shall perform the following
additional validation: it shall unwrap the token in the R1DIST IE and
compare the enclosed NAS-Id with the one it received from the target
AP in a beacon or probe response. If they do not match the STA must
treat this as an authentication failure. If they match the STA
computes the digest of SHA-256(Ns|Na) using Na from the unwrapped
token and compares it to the value in the R1DISTV IE. If they do not
match the STA must treat this as an authentication failure.  If they
match the STA instantiates its own version of a PMK-R1 security
association to share with the target AP and continues with Fast BSS
Transition.

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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "Puneet Agarwal" <pagarwal@broadcom.com>,
	"Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>,
	"Abhijit Choudhury" <Abhijit@sinett.com>,
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I will need time to catch up to this thread, but want to quickly note
that I am not against using a separate port. The e-mail I sent out,
which I have yet to completely digest Scott's comments, was intended to
provide an approach where only two ports are used. If we wish to use
three, then that's ok with me too - as long as we can get them
allocated.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Puneet Agarwal [mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 7:24 PM
> To: Scott G. Kelly; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Abhijit 
> Choudhury; Dorothy Stanley; Michael Montemurro
> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
> 
> I agree with Scott - it is important that we come up with a 
> solution that is unambiguous and works even if packet formats 
> for dtls change. 
> 
> It seems that we (capwap) are one of the first folks trying 
> to use DTLS.
> It would be good to know how other folks (if any) have used 
> DTLS for their applications. If someone has already solved 
> the "discovery to dtls-secure" like problem before, then it 
> would be good to understand how they did it and maybe use a 
> similar approach (rather than re-invent the wheel). In that 
> regard, does anyone know of other groups using dtls to secure 
> their protocol?
> 
> Would having 3 UDP ports solve the problem:
> (a) capwap-open control port : All unencrypted capwap control 
> packets go on this channel
> (b) capwap-open data port : All unencrypted capwap data 
> packets go on this channel
> (b) capwap-secure port: All dtls encrypted capwap 
> data/control packets go on this channel. Demux for data vs 
> control happens after decryption.
> 
> We may need more ports if we need to support different QoS 
> levels (as pointed by Scott)- that to me is a bigger problem. 
> Wondering what the group thinks....
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -Puneet
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:42 PM
> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Abhijit Choudhury; Dorothy 
> Stanley; Michael Montemurro
> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
> 
> You know, after seeing my post on this topic yesterday, I 
> thought maybe my sarcasm was a bit overdone, and I actually 
> regretted that post. But now, after seeing what sort of hoops 
> you're willing to jump through to avoid that much simpler 
> approach at apparently any cost... well, now I'm not so sure.
> 
> Sigh. Comments inline...
> 
> <extraneous text elided...>
> >The AC maintains a DTLS SA table which consists of the WTP's 
> IP address
> 
> >and UDP port numbers. When the AC receives a Discovery 
> Request on the 
> >CAPWAP control port, it performs a lookup to determine whether the 
> >IP/Port information matches the DTLS SA table. If the 
> IP/Port does not 
> >match an entry in the DTLS SA table, the AC responds with a 
> Discovery 
> >response and waits for a successful DTLS setup, which would create a 
> >new DTLS SA. If there is a match, then the packet is a DTLS 
> encrypted 
> >payload, which is sent to the DTLS stack. The following is 
> an example 
> >of the packet exchange (note the ports used here are for 
> illustration 
> >purposes only):
> >
> >WTP                                                       AC
> >(WTP Picks a pseudo-random source port)
> >----- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Request (662, 1233) ------>
> ><---- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Response (1233, 662) ------
> >
> >Using Scott's recommendation to look at the WBID, which when 
> set to any
> 
> >value other than 23 (which we will need to reserve), then we 
> know this 
> >packet is a discovery request, and process it accordingly. One 
> >alternative to reserving a WBID would be to require that the 
> Reserved 
> >field in the CAPWAP header be set to '111', which would 
> provide another
> 
> >way to differentiate the packets.
> 
> Let's stop here, because this is where it starts getting 
> twisted. I didn't recommend this sort of hack. There are two 
> major flaws to this approach. The first is that you assume 
> that the DTLS header format will not change. That's probably 
> unwise, given that it is a new protocol.
> This early in the game, anything after the version field is 
> fair game, and hacking based on assumptions of immutability 
> is (in my opinion, at
> least) A Bad Thing (tm).
> 
> The second issue here is that you're not looking carefully at 
> the DTLS header alignment as it currently exists. Each 
> version change results in the first version byte being 
> decremented. It is currently FE, and the next will be FD, 
> then FC, and so on. Look at what this means for the WBID 
> field (which, by the way, could *also* be changed before 
> we've finished with capwap):
> 
>      0                   1                   2                   3
>      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>     |0 0 0 1|0 1 1 0 1|1 1 1 1 1|1 0 1 1 1|1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0|
>     |VERSION|   RID   | HLEN    |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|    FLAGS      |
>     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/
>     |    type       |     protocol version          |  epoch
>     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/
> FEFF                |1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1|
>                     +---------------+---------------+
> FDFF                |1 1 1 1 1 1 0 1|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1|
>                     +---------------+---------------+
> FCFF                |1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1|
>                     +---------------+---------------+
> FBFF                |1 1 1 1 1 0 1 1|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1|
>                     +---------------+---------------+
> FAFF                |1 1 1 1 1 0 1 0|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1|
>                     +---------------+---------------+
> 
> Since there are two WBID bits affected, your scheme requires 
> that there be at least 4 untouchable WBID values (assuming we 
> don't change the capwap header): 7, 15, 23, and 31. This is 
> starting to sound more than a little bit hacky, and certainly 
> not something you want to implement in hardware.
> 
> I won't go line by line on the stuff below, as this is more 
> than I can ask people to bear. I have only two points to make here: 
> 
> 1) regarding the comment below where you say "Furthermore, I 
> trust an authenticated payload much more than a bit 'in the 
> clear'",  I'm
> wondering: why are unauthenticated values in the UDP and IP 
> headers more trustworthy than values following them? Think about it.
> 
> 2) look at the signalling complexity you are adding! And all 
> this to avoid ...what, exactly?
> 
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >
> 
> >--------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (662, 1233) -------->
> ><-------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (1233, 662) ---------
> >
> >The WBID value of 23 will be an indication that the DTLS session is 
> >being established (or the alternative proposed above)... at 
> this point 
> >all packets are from now on fed into the DTLS engine. Once the DTLS 
> >session is established, all CAPWAP packets will be marked 
> internally as
> 
> >'Application Data', and once decrypted will be sent back into the 
> >CAPWAP module for processing...
> >
> >-------- CAPWAP Control/Join Request (662, 1233) ---------> 
> (includes 
> >support for DTLS/Data)
> ><------- CAPWAP Control/Join Response (1233, 662) --------- 
> (Dictates 
> >whether DTLS is to be used on data plane, and a random cookie)
> >
> >When inactivity occurs over the control plane, the keepalive 
> is sent to
> 
> >keep the session alive (also useful for NAT traversal):
> >
> >------- CAPWAP Control/Keepalive Request (662, 1233) ----->
> ><------ CAPWAP Control/Keepalive Response (1233, 662) -----
> >
> >The following is optional, and occurs if DTLS needs to be 
> used on the 
> >data plane UDP port:
> >
> >----------- DTLS Session Setup/Data (685, 1234) ---------->
> ><---------- DTLS Session Setup/Data (1234, 685) -----------
> >
> >Again, the WBID of 23 is used to identify the DTLS packet. When used 
> >and established, all CAPWAP data packets will be marked as 
> 'Application
> 
> >Data' within DTLS. So these packets would pop back out of the DTLS 
> >stack for CAPWAP processing. Yes, this requires that the data plane 
> >remember the configuration enforced by the AC, and therefore it does 
> >not mark each packet as "with DTLS" or "without DTLS". We 
> can do this, 
> >but frankly it provides little value because ultimately, if DTLS was 
> >required and a packet is sent in the clear, it will be 
> dropped anyhow.
> >Furthermore, I trust an authenticated payload much more than 
> a bit "in 
> >the clear".
> >
> >A specialized packet is then sent on the data plane to create the 
> >correlation between the control and data plane sessions. A 
> new bit in 
> >the CAPWAP header, which I will call 'D' (for Data 
> Management) is set 
> >so this gets treated as a specialized packet on the data plane UDP
> port:
> >
> >---------- CAPWAP Data/Announce Req (685, 1234) ----------> 
> (Including 
> >the cookie to bind to control channel)
> ><--------- CAPWAP Data/Announce resp (1234, 685) ----------
> >
> >NOTE: Another alternative to this scheme is to include a session 
> >identifier in the header, which provides the correlation between the 
> >control and data channel. This would be much simpler to 
> implement, and 
> >not require special processing of the data plane. However, if folks 
> >believe that keeping the NAT session fresh, then we need 
> some mechanism
> 
> >to keep the channel alive. If this is found to be 
> desirable/required, 
> >then a periodic exchange needs to occur to keep the NAT table entry 
> >fresh (again, with the 'D' bit set):
> >
> >------- CAPWAP Data/Keepalive Request (685, 1234) -------->
> ><------ CAPWAP Data/Keepalive Response (1234, 685) --------
> >
> >Should the WTP fail, it would pick a new source UDP port for 
> both the 
> >control and data plane, and send a Discovery Request using 
> the control 
> >UDP port. It is important to note that the longevity of the 
> uniqueness 
> >characteristics of the UDP port is not very long (e.g., one 
> day after 
> >reboot). This is a new requirement on the WTP, but not unrealistic 
> >since
> >802.11 APs have to do this for the RADIUS protocol today (to 
> maintain 
> >unique session identifiers). The AC does not flush its 
> current DTLS SA 
> >until the DTLS exchange is complete (and successful).
> >
> >WTP                                                       AC
> >(WTP picks a new pseudo-random source port)
> >----- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Request (772, 1233) ------>
> ><---- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Response (1233, 772) ------
> >
> >Using Scott's recommendation to look at the WBID, which when 
> set to any
> 
> >value other than 23 (which we will need to reserve), then we 
> know this 
> >packet is a discovery request, and process it accordingly.
> >
> >--------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (772, 1233) -------->
> ><-------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (1233, 772) ---------
> >
> >The WBID value of 23 will be an indication that the DTLS session is 
> >being established... at this point all packets are from now 
> on fed into
> 
> >the DTLS engine.
> >
> >If NAT is used, it is possible that the WTP's source IP 
> address is used
> 
> >for multiple WTPs. In this case, the AC can identify each 
> WTP using the
> 
> >DTLS credentials. The AC can then delete the old DTLS SAs 
> (control and 
> >optionally data), that are associated with the WTP's credentials.
> >Alternatively, the AC could simply wait for the sessions to expire.
> >
> >
> >Pat Calhoun
> >CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> >Cisco Systems
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> >
> >	From: Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com] 
> >	Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:08 AM
> >	To: Dorothy Stanley; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Michael Montemurro
> >	Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> >	Subject: need clarification on UDP ports
> >	
> >	
> >	Pat, Mike, Dorothy:
> >	 
> >	I have a question based on v03 of the capwap spec.
> >	In section 3.1, the spec mentions well-known UDP
> >	ports for the CAPWAP control and data packets.
> >	 
> >	There are four kinds of CAPWAP packets:
> >	1. DTLS protected control packets
> >	2. Unprotected control packets
> >	3. Unprotected data packets
> >	4. (Optional) DTLS protected data packets
> >	 
> >	Will there be 4 well-known UDP port numbers ?
> >	 
> >	1, 2 and 3 will be present simultaneously in any
> >	deployment. 3 and 4 may co-exist in a deployment
> >	if some data channels are encrypted and some not.
> >	There has to be a way to distinguish these four 
> >	kinds of packets.  The draft is not clear about how 
> >	this is done.
> >	 
> >	Thanks,
> >	   Abhijit
> >	
> >	
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> >http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> >
> >Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> 
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From: "Scott G. Kelly" <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>
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> It seems that we (capwap) are one of the first folks trying 
> to use DTLS.
> It would be good to know how other folks (if any) have used DTLS for
> their applications. If someone has already solved the "discovery to
> dtls-secure" like problem before, then it would be good to understand
> how they did it and maybe use a similar approach (rather than 
> re-invent
> the wheel). In that regard, does anyone know of other groups 
> using dtls
> to secure their protocol?

There are currently drafts active for using DTLS with syslog, SDP, and DCCP. Also, TLS has been used with many protocols, and we can certainly look there for inspiration. In general, there are two models. In the first, a given port is considered (D)TLS-only. In the other, the application somehow signals it's desire to convert the session to (D)TLS. For example, some applications support a "STARTTLS" directive, and for secure syslog a client might send the string "AUTH TLS CLIENT", to which the server will reply OK or ERROR. In general, once (D)TLS is on, no unprotected packets are allowed.

> Would having 3 UDP ports solve the problem:
> (a) capwap-open control port : All unencrypted capwap control 
> packets go
> on this channel
> (b) capwap-open data port : All unencrypted capwap data packets go on
> this channel
> (b) capwap-secure port: All dtls encrypted capwap data/control packets
> go on this channel. Demux for data vs control happens after 
> decryption.
> 
> We may need more ports if we need to support different QoS levels (as
> pointed by Scott)- that to me is a bigger problem. Wondering what the
> group thinks....

I've been re-thinking my position on this, given that the working group is committed to a multiport approach. Certainly there are multiple ways to solve this, and while I would prefer a solution that didn't involve adding yet more ports, we are where we are.

That said, I think adding a 3rd port which is only used for discovery operations solves part of the problem.  In that case, the control channel is always DTLS traffic, and we have an unambiguous solution which requires no protocol hacks.

As for the data channel, it's a little more complex. If hardware vendors must know a priori whether data is protected or not, the only options are either two data ports or a type header, and given the dramatic allergic reactions we've seen to protocol layering beyond the udp header here, distinct ports seem to be the only option on the table. However, if hardware vendors support tuple-plumbing, we can do this with one data port.

Tuple-plumbing solves the problem by letting the application tell the hardware when a session is protected or not, but you have to look at the source port too. This is part of the problem some of Pat's signalling is meant to solve. Once the AC knows what characteristics a given tuple should have, this can be plumbed into the hardare.

This still leaves two problems: associating a NAT'd data channel with the appropriate control channel, and the QoS problem for the data channel. The channel association can be solved by using the session ID, as has been noted numerous times in past threads. One way this could be extended to encompass multiple data channels would be to extend the session ID field, and treat the high-order portion as the session id, and the low-order portion as the channel id (control channel has channel id 0, data channel with no QoS has channel id 1, and so on). Just a thought.

Since there will be initial ambiguity when multiple WTPs are behind a NAT, there are two options:

1) don't worry about it; let the WTP establish a DTLS session without knowing which control channel it belongs to, and then get the session binding out of the first protected data packet (which may be an echo) to create the binding; if no packets come within some preset interval, tear down the DTLS session.

2) do some inline signalling, as Pat suggested. This could be via a capwap header with some special value, or it could be the text STARTDTLS along with the session/channel id - whatever.

I think, based on the above, that a 3-port solution exists - but this depends on what is workable for the hardware vendors.

Scott


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On 10/20/06, Scott G. Kelly <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >[NKA] Scott, so you agree that the logic which I have explained for handling
> >discovery/DTLS packets is correct, but you feel that it would result in slower
> >synchronization between WTP and AC FSM?
>
> Actually, no, I don't agree. A discovery packet should be deterministically treated as a discovery packet - not sometimes erroneously treated as a dtls packet. I think introducing this ambiguity is unnecessary, to say the least.

[NKA] Scott, now you are not agreeing to what you said in youre previous email.
Look at the snippet of the same.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>[NKA] Even if a less-robust AC implementation ends up interpreting DTLS
>message as a Discovery packet, do you think WTP (which unfortunately
>has passed discovery state) will be able to carry on with its DTLS
>session establishment and succeed ultimately? :-( I don't think so.  (Imagine
>this: WTP needs to successfully interpret Discovery response as HelloVerify
>request, followed by which AC needs to interpret ClientHello (with cookie) as
>Client Hello without Cookie, and so on).

That's not the point, and this is minor compared to the real issue,
which is below
                *
                *
                *
In this case the WTP will often need to go through discovery again
before reconnecting to the AC. If the AC erroneously feeds these
packets to its DTLS implementation, they will be rejected, and the WTP
will get no response.  This means failure recovery will not occur
until the AC times out its DTLS session, and since these timeouts are
frequently set as high as 30 seconds in the field,  and since the WTP
may exhaust its discovery timers and go into sulking state due to AC
unresponsiveness, this has the potential to signficantly (and
unfortunately, completely avoidably) exacerbate the outage.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[NKA] My point is that seperate discovery packet processing via a special port
is a bad idea. And it doesn't bring any additional value than what can be
achieved without special port approach. Scott's additional reasoning that two
port approach would open up scope for DOS atack. I totally disagree with
the argument. I claim that the same risk exists even with 3-port approach also.

>
> I think Abhijit's point is correct: it should be very clear whether a packet is control, data, discovery, and protected vs unprotected. Either we can do that by using more ports, or we can find another way. But I don't think shoving a discovery packet into the dtls engine is "a good thing".


>
> Scott
>
>
>
>
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In 4.4.12 of the -03 draft, the Discovery Timer and Echo Timer fields
are defined.  The value of the field determines the number of seconds
between the two types of Request packets.  What does a value of zero
mean in this field?

For the Echo Timer, I would propose that a value of zero be defined to
mean that no Echo Request packets are sent.  For the Discovery Timer, I
would propose that a value of zero be reserved and, if received by a
WTP, is interpreted to be the same as if the value of 1 was received.

 -Bob

Bob O'Hara
Cisco Systems - WNBU

Phone:  +1 408 853 5513
Mobile: +1 408 218 4025
 
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
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Hi Navin,

-----Original Message-----
>From: "Navin (NKA)" <nka.capwap@gmail.com>
>Sent: Oct 20, 2006 1:00 PM
>To: "Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>
>Cc: capwap@frascone.com
>Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
>
>On 10/20/06, Scott G. Kelly <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >[NKA] Scott, so you agree that the logic which I have explained for handling
>> >discovery/DTLS packets is correct, but you feel that it would result in slower
>> >synchronization between WTP and AC FSM?
>>
>> Actually, no, I don't agree. A discovery packet should be deterministically treated as a discovery packet - not sometimes erroneously treated as a dtls packet. I think introducing this ambiguity is unnecessary, to say the least.
>
>[NKA] Scott, now you are not agreeing to what you said in youre previous email.
>Look at the snippet of the same.

You know, even if I *had* changed my position -- that is allowed in the IETF. But in this case, I didn't. All along I've been disagreeing with the notion that ambiguity and non-deterministic handling of discovery messages is okay. I'm sorry if anything I've said was in any way confusing.

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>[NKA] Even if a less-robust AC implementation ends up interpreting DTLS
>>message as a Discovery packet, do you think WTP (which unfortunately
>>has passed discovery state) will be able to carry on with its DTLS
>>session establishment and succeed ultimately? :-( I don't think so.  (Imagine
>>this: WTP needs to successfully interpret Discovery response as HelloVerify
>>request, followed by which AC needs to interpret ClientHello (with cookie) as
>>Client Hello without Cookie, and so on).
>
>That's not the point, and this is minor compared to the real issue,
>which is below
>                *
>                *
>                *
>In this case the WTP will often need to go through discovery again
>before reconnecting to the AC. If the AC erroneously feeds these
>packets to its DTLS implementation, they will be rejected, and the WTP
>will get no response.  This means failure recovery will not occur
>until the AC times out its DTLS session, and since these timeouts are
>frequently set as high as 30 seconds in the field,  and since the WTP
>may exhaust its discovery timers and go into sulking state due to AC
>unresponsiveness, this has the potential to signficantly (and
>unfortunately, completely avoidably) exacerbate the outage.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>[NKA] My point is that seperate discovery packet processing via a special port
>is a bad idea. And it doesn't bring any additional value than what can be
>achieved without special port approach. 


Okay, so we know where you stand on this.


>Scott's additional reasoning that two
>port approach would open up scope for DOS atack. I totally disagree with
>the argument. I claim that the same risk exists even with 3-port approach also.


Sorry, don't agree with this. Here's what you suggested:

>You may have a situation in which session information exists for a WTP at AC,
>but WTP is sending non-DTLS packet. Even in such situation, AC can feed such
>packets to DTLS module, which will ultimately reject the packet. AC can use
>this kind of notification to tear down the existing session, which will bring AC's
>state machine in sync with that of WTP.

To paraphrase, if the AC receives a discovery packet that appears to be from a live WTP, the AC should tear down that WTP's session to sync with the WTP.

To me (and maybe it's just me, because I'm so paranoid or something), that sounds an awful lot like an invitation to a DoS party. Go ahead and implement this, and I'll show you how it works :-)

Now, as to whether that vulnerability also exists with 3 ports... well, I guess if you implement the way you described, then it does. But if it were my implementation, I wouldn't *ever* tear down a session based on the receipt of unauthenticated data.

Scott

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References: <389468.1161381258661.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
From: "Hasan Raza" <Hasan@sinett.com>
To: "Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>, <capwap@frascone.com>,
	<pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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Hi,

I think we are a bit closer than where we were earlier in terms of =
resolving
this issue.

I agree with the points which Scott has raised. And I feel that there =
are few
DoS issues which have not been addressed properly in the capwap draft. =
May be
resolving those issues first might give us a solution for the =
DTLS/Discovery
packet identification issue (#224).

To start with, we have to answer few questions:
1. How capwap is protected against discovery packet attacks? Even if =
there
is a port-based or mux-based soltuion for reliably identifying discovery =
and
DTLS packets, an attacker can send a discovery packet to the AC, which =
may
result in the tear down of the WTP session. This is because discovery =
packets
are un-authenticated packets, and are sent in plain. AC needs to blindly
believe on the discovery packets.

2. If an AC employs actions again discovery packet attacks by discarding
discovery packets if WTP session did not timeout, then an attacker may
prevent the WTP joining back to the AC after a WTP crash. Attacker can =
detect
a sudden absence of echo request messages from WTP, and start replaying =
the
WTP echo request messages which causes AC not to teardown the WTP =
session.
And thus genuine discovery packets might be discarded by AC. May be I am =
wrong
here if DTLS can detect duplicate packets and discard them =
automatically.


To resolve the above issues, we can impose following rules on AC.

For issue (1) above:
RULE 1:
  (a) AC discards all discovery packets if an active WTP session exists =
for the
  WTP.
  (b) A discovery packet from WTP can be accepted by AC only when there =
does
  not exist any active session for that WTP. Whereas, if a discovery =
packet is
  received if an active WTP session exists at AC, then all such =
discovery
  packets are discarded without change or update of any of the AC =
states.

To resolve the second issue (if at all it exists):=20
RULE 2:
  AC should discard all duplicate DTLS and CAPWAP packets without change =
or
  update of any of its states.


RULE (1) above will impose a constant delay in the WTP re-joining. =
Suppose a
WTP crashes and comes up before WTP session at AC may timeout, all its
discovery packets will be discarded by the WTP. But since AC won't be
receiving any valid/authenticated packet which could refresh the WTP =
session,
the WTP session would timeout after _fixed_ amount of time. This _fixed_
amount of time is unfortunately not fixed since it can be changed
administratively, by say updating echo interval at WTP or by changing =
response
timeout values at AC.

To make the WTP re-joining faster, WTP may save the DTLS cookie on a
persistent storage and (after a restart) presents the cookie to the AC =
to
restore the DTLS connection, and thus avoiding the discovery phase. This
concept is same as the one presented in "Idle to Join (aa)" transition,
except that here presenting a valid cookie resets the state to join =
state,
discarding any previous WTP state/stats maintained at AC.


I _think_ that the above proposals will avoid discovery packet DoS =
attacks,
and there is no need to use separate ports or extra mux header after udp
header to differentiate among the discovery and DTLS packets.



Thanks
Hasan



-----Original Message-----
From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Fri 10/20/2006 2:54 PM
To: Navin (NKA)
Cc: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
=20
Hi Navin,

-----Original Message-----
>From: "Navin (NKA)" <nka.capwap@gmail.com>
>Sent: Oct 20, 2006 1:00 PM
>To: "Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>
>Cc: capwap@frascone.com
>Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
>
>On 10/20/06, Scott G. Kelly <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >[NKA] Scott, so you agree that the logic which I have explained for =
handling
>> >discovery/DTLS packets is correct, but you feel that it would result =
in slower
>> >synchronization between WTP and AC FSM?
>>
>> Actually, no, I don't agree. A discovery packet should be =
deterministically treated as a discovery packet - not sometimes =
erroneously treated as a dtls packet. I think introducing this ambiguity =
is unnecessary, to say the least.
>
>[NKA] Scott, now you are not agreeing to what you said in youre =
previous email.
>Look at the snippet of the same.

You know, even if I *had* changed my position -- that is allowed in the =
IETF. But in this case, I didn't. All along I've been disagreeing with =
the notion that ambiguity and non-deterministic handling of discovery =
messages is okay. I'm sorry if anything I've said was in any way =
confusing.

>------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------------------
>>[NKA] Even if a less-robust AC implementation ends up interpreting =
DTLS
>>message as a Discovery packet, do you think WTP (which unfortunately
>>has passed discovery state) will be able to carry on with its DTLS
>>session establishment and succeed ultimately? :-( I don't think so.  =
(Imagine
>>this: WTP needs to successfully interpret Discovery response as =
HelloVerify
>>request, followed by which AC needs to interpret ClientHello (with =
cookie) as
>>Client Hello without Cookie, and so on).
>
>That's not the point, and this is minor compared to the real issue,
>which is below
>                *
>                *
>                *
>In this case the WTP will often need to go through discovery again
>before reconnecting to the AC. If the AC erroneously feeds these
>packets to its DTLS implementation, they will be rejected, and the WTP
>will get no response.  This means failure recovery will not occur
>until the AC times out its DTLS session, and since these timeouts are
>frequently set as high as 30 seconds in the field,  and since the WTP
>may exhaust its discovery timers and go into sulking state due to AC
>unresponsiveness, this has the potential to signficantly (and
>unfortunately, completely avoidably) exacerbate the outage.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------------------
>
>[NKA] My point is that seperate discovery packet processing via a =
special port
>is a bad idea. And it doesn't bring any additional value than what can =
be
>achieved without special port approach.=20


Okay, so we know where you stand on this.


>Scott's additional reasoning that two
>port approach would open up scope for DOS atack. I totally disagree =
with
>the argument. I claim that the same risk exists even with 3-port =
approach also.


Sorry, don't agree with this. Here's what you suggested:

>You may have a situation in which session information exists for a WTP =
at AC,
>but WTP is sending non-DTLS packet. Even in such situation, AC can feed =
such
>packets to DTLS module, which will ultimately reject the packet. AC can =
use
>this kind of notification to tear down the existing session, which will =
bring AC's
>state machine in sync with that of WTP.

To paraphrase, if the AC receives a discovery packet that appears to be =
from a live WTP, the AC should tear down that WTP's session to sync with =
the WTP.

To me (and maybe it's just me, because I'm so paranoid or something), =
that sounds an awful lot like an invitation to a DoS party. Go ahead and =
implement this, and I'll show you how it works :-)

Now, as to whether that vulnerability also exists with 3 ports... well, =
I guess if you implement the way you described, then it does. But if it =
were my implementation, I wouldn't *ever* tear down a session based on =
the receipt of unauthenticated data.

Scott

_________________________________________________________________
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<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hi,<BR>
<BR>
I think we are a bit closer than where we were earlier in terms of =
resolving<BR>
this issue.<BR>
<BR>
I agree with the points which Scott has raised. And I feel that there =
are few<BR>
DoS issues which have not been addressed properly in the capwap draft. =
May be<BR>
resolving those issues first might give us a solution for the =
DTLS/Discovery<BR>
packet identification issue (#224).<BR>
<BR>
To start with, we have to answer few questions:<BR>
1. How capwap is protected against discovery packet attacks? Even if =
there<BR>
is a port-based or mux-based soltuion for reliably identifying discovery =
and<BR>
DTLS packets, an attacker can send a discovery packet to the AC, which =
may<BR>
result in the tear down of the WTP session. This is because discovery =
packets<BR>
are un-authenticated packets, and are sent in plain. AC needs to =
blindly<BR>
believe on the discovery packets.<BR>
<BR>
2. If an AC employs actions again discovery packet attacks by =
discarding<BR>
discovery packets if WTP session did not timeout, then an attacker =
may<BR>
prevent the WTP joining back to the AC after a WTP crash. Attacker can =
detect<BR>
a sudden absence of echo request messages from WTP, and start replaying =
the<BR>
WTP echo request messages which causes AC not to teardown the WTP =
session.<BR>
And thus genuine discovery packets might be discarded by AC. May be I am =
wrong<BR>
here if DTLS can detect duplicate packets and discard them =
automatically.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
To resolve the above issues, we can impose following rules on AC.<BR>
<BR>
For issue (1) above:<BR>
RULE 1:<BR>
&nbsp; (a) AC discards all discovery packets if an active WTP session =
exists for the<BR>
&nbsp; WTP.<BR>
&nbsp; (b) A discovery packet from WTP can be accepted by AC only when =
there does<BR>
&nbsp; not exist any active session for that WTP. Whereas, if a =
discovery packet is<BR>
&nbsp; received if an active WTP session exists at AC, then all such =
discovery<BR>
&nbsp; packets are discarded without change or update of any of the AC =
states.<BR>
<BR>
To resolve the second issue (if at all it exists):<BR>
RULE 2:<BR>
&nbsp; AC should discard all duplicate DTLS and CAPWAP packets without =
change or<BR>
&nbsp; update of any of its states.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
RULE (1) above will impose a constant delay in the WTP re-joining. =
Suppose a<BR>
WTP crashes and comes up before WTP session at AC may timeout, all =
its<BR>
discovery packets will be discarded by the WTP. But since AC won't =
be<BR>
receiving any valid/authenticated packet which could refresh the WTP =
session,<BR>
the WTP session would timeout after _fixed_ amount of time. This =
_fixed_<BR>
amount of time is unfortunately not fixed since it can be changed<BR>
administratively, by say updating echo interval at WTP or by changing =
response<BR>
timeout values at AC.<BR>
<BR>
To make the WTP re-joining faster, WTP may save the DTLS cookie on a<BR>
persistent storage and (after a restart) presents the cookie to the AC =
to<BR>
restore the DTLS connection, and thus avoiding the discovery phase. =
This<BR>
concept is same as the one presented in &quot;Idle to Join (aa)&quot; =
transition,<BR>
except that here presenting a valid cookie resets the state to join =
state,<BR>
discarding any previous WTP state/stats maintained at AC.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I _think_ that the above proposals will avoid discovery packet DoS =
attacks,<BR>
and there is no need to use separate ports or extra mux header after =
udp<BR>
header to differentiate among the discovery and DTLS packets.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Hasan<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Scott G. Kelly [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com">mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com</A>]<B=
R>
Sent: Fri 10/20/2006 2:54 PM<BR>
To: Navin (NKA)<BR>
Cc: capwap@frascone.com<BR>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports<BR>
<BR>
Hi Navin,<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
&gt;From: &quot;Navin (NKA)&quot; &lt;nka.capwap@gmail.com&gt;<BR>
&gt;Sent: Oct 20, 2006 1:00 PM<BR>
&gt;To: &quot;Scott G. Kelly&quot; &lt;scott@hyperthought.com&gt;<BR>
&gt;Cc: capwap@frascone.com<BR>
&gt;Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;On 10/20/06, Scott G. Kelly &lt;s.kelly@ix.netcom.com&gt; wrote:<BR>
&gt;&gt; &gt;[NKA] Scott, so you agree that the logic which I have =
explained for handling<BR>
&gt;&gt; &gt;discovery/DTLS packets is correct, but you feel that it =
would result in slower<BR>
&gt;&gt; &gt;synchronization between WTP and AC FSM?<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; Actually, no, I don't agree. A discovery packet should be =
deterministically treated as a discovery packet - not sometimes =
erroneously treated as a dtls packet. I think introducing this ambiguity =
is unnecessary, to say the least.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;[NKA] Scott, now you are not agreeing to what you said in youre =
previous email.<BR>
&gt;Look at the snippet of the same.<BR>
<BR>
You know, even if I *had* changed my position -- that is allowed in the =
IETF. But in this case, I didn't. All along I've been disagreeing with =
the notion that ambiguity and non-deterministic handling of discovery =
messages is okay. I'm sorry if anything I've said was in any way =
confusing.<BR>
<BR>
&gt;---------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------<BR>
&gt;&gt;[NKA] Even if a less-robust AC implementation ends up =
interpreting DTLS<BR>
&gt;&gt;message as a Discovery packet, do you think WTP (which =
unfortunately<BR>
&gt;&gt;has passed discovery state) will be able to carry on with its =
DTLS<BR>
&gt;&gt;session establishment and succeed ultimately? :-( I don't think =
so.&nbsp; (Imagine<BR>
&gt;&gt;this: WTP needs to successfully interpret Discovery response as =
HelloVerify<BR>
&gt;&gt;request, followed by which AC needs to interpret ClientHello =
(with cookie) as<BR>
&gt;&gt;Client Hello without Cookie, and so on).<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;That's not the point, and this is minor compared to the real =
issue,<BR>
&gt;which is below<BR>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *<BR>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *<BR>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *<BR>
&gt;In this case the WTP will often need to go through discovery =
again<BR>
&gt;before reconnecting to the AC. If the AC erroneously feeds these<BR>
&gt;packets to its DTLS implementation, they will be rejected, and the =
WTP<BR>
&gt;will get no response.&nbsp; This means failure recovery will not =
occur<BR>
&gt;until the AC times out its DTLS session, and since these timeouts =
are<BR>
&gt;frequently set as high as 30 seconds in the field,&nbsp; and since =
the WTP<BR>
&gt;may exhaust its discovery timers and go into sulking state due to =
AC<BR>
&gt;unresponsiveness, this has the potential to signficantly (and<BR>
&gt;unfortunately, completely avoidably) exacerbate the outage.<BR>
&gt;---------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;[NKA] My point is that seperate discovery packet processing via a =
special port<BR>
&gt;is a bad idea. And it doesn't bring any additional value than what =
can be<BR>
&gt;achieved without special port approach.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Okay, so we know where you stand on this.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&gt;Scott's additional reasoning that two<BR>
&gt;port approach would open up scope for DOS atack. I totally disagree =
with<BR>
&gt;the argument. I claim that the same risk exists even with 3-port =
approach also.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, don't agree with this. Here's what you suggested:<BR>
<BR>
&gt;You may have a situation in which session information exists for a =
WTP at AC,<BR>
&gt;but WTP is sending non-DTLS packet. Even in such situation, AC can =
feed such<BR>
&gt;packets to DTLS module, which will ultimately reject the packet. AC =
can use<BR>
&gt;this kind of notification to tear down the existing session, which =
will bring AC's<BR>
&gt;state machine in sync with that of WTP.<BR>
<BR>
To paraphrase, if the AC receives a discovery packet that appears to be =
from a live WTP, the AC should tear down that WTP's session to sync with =
the WTP.<BR>
<BR>
To me (and maybe it's just me, because I'm so paranoid or something), =
that sounds an awful lot like an invitation to a DoS party. Go ahead and =
implement this, and I'll show you how it works :-)<BR>
<BR>
Now, as to whether that vulnerability also exists with 3 ports... well, =
I guess if you implement the way you described, then it does. But if it =
were my implementation, I wouldn't *ever* tear down a session based on =
the receipt of unauthenticated data.<BR>
<BR>
Scott<BR>
<BR>
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Hi Puneet,

I forgot to address one point below:

Puneet Agarwal wrote:
> I agree with Scott - it is important that we come up with a solution
> that is unambiguous and works even if packet formats for dtls change. 
> 
> It seems that we (capwap) are one of the first folks trying to use DTLS.
> It would be good to know how other folks (if any) have used DTLS for
> their applications. If someone has already solved the "discovery to
> dtls-secure" like problem before, then it would be good to understand
> how they did it and maybe use a similar approach (rather than re-invent
> the wheel). In that regard, does anyone know of other groups using dtls
> to secure their protocol?
> 
> Would having 3 UDP ports solve the problem:
> (a) capwap-open control port : All unencrypted capwap control packets go
> on this channel
> (b) capwap-open data port : All unencrypted capwap data packets go on
> this channel
> (b) capwap-secure port: All dtls encrypted capwap data/control packets
> go on this channel. Demux for data vs control happens after decryption.

Combining secure data and control in one DTLS channel may potentially 
have problems when you have different QoS levels for control vs data. I 
think you could get away with it in some cases, but not in others. It's 
probably simplest to just disallow it.

Scott

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Hi Hasan,

Hasan Raza wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I think we are a bit closer than where we were earlier in terms of resolving
> this issue.
> 
> I agree with the points which Scott has raised. And I feel that there are few
> DoS issues which have not been addressed properly in the capwap draft. May be
> resolving those issues first might give us a solution for the DTLS/Discovery
> packet identification issue (#224).
> 
> To start with, we have to answer few questions:
> 1. How capwap is protected against discovery packet attacks? Even if there
> is a port-based or mux-based soltuion for reliably identifying discovery and
> DTLS packets, an attacker can send a discovery packet to the AC, which may
> result in the tear down of the WTP session. This is because discovery packets
> are un-authenticated packets, and are sent in plain. AC needs to blindly
> believe on the discovery packets.

Actually, I don't think this is necessarily the case. Since discovery 
packets are unauthenticated, the AC should *never* act on them (other 
than to send a discovery response). The draft currently states that the 
AC should not maintain state when it receives a discovery request (for 
this very reason), but we should probably add text noting that it should 
not modify existing state, either.

> 2. If an AC employs actions again discovery packet attacks by discarding
> discovery packets if WTP session did not timeout, then an attacker may
> prevent the WTP joining back to the AC after a WTP crash. Attacker can detect
> a sudden absence of echo request messages from WTP, and start replaying the
> WTP echo request messages which causes AC not to teardown the WTP session.
> And thus genuine discovery packets might be discarded by AC. May be I am wrong
> here if DTLS can detect duplicate packets and discard them automatically.

Yes, DTLS provides antireplay detection. I inaccurately said in an 
earlier email that this is compulsory for DTLS - what I should have said 
is that it is compulsory for CAPWAP (it's optional in DTLS).

> To resolve the above issues, we can impose following rules on AC.
> 
> For issue (1) above:
> RULE 1:
>   (a) AC discards all discovery packets if an active WTP session exists for the
>   WTP.
>   (b) A discovery packet from WTP can be accepted by AC only when there does
>   not exist any active session for that WTP. Whereas, if a discovery packet is
>   received if an active WTP session exists at AC, then all such discovery
>   packets are discarded without change or update of any of the AC states.

I think it's okay for the AC to respond, but it should not tear down an 
existing association. It should only do this once the WTP re-joins (and 
re-authenticates in the process). I'll think about better language for 
the security considerations and the discovery processing.

> To resolve the second issue (if at all it exists): 
> RULE 2:
>   AC should discard all duplicate DTLS and CAPWAP packets without change or
>   update of any of its states.

Maybe we need better language on this as well. The AC should be keeping 
statistics relating to such events, at minimum.

> RULE (1) above will impose a constant delay in the WTP re-joining. Suppose a
> WTP crashes and comes up before WTP session at AC may timeout, all its
> discovery packets will be discarded by the WTP. But since AC won't be
> receiving any valid/authenticated packet which could refresh the WTP session,
> the WTP session would timeout after _fixed_ amount of time. This _fixed_
> amount of time is unfortunately not fixed since it can be changed
> administratively, by say updating echo interval at WTP or by changing response
> timeout values at AC.

As noted above, re-joining is independent of discovery operations - a 
WTP should be able to initiate a new DTLS handshake even though a 
session currently exists, but there are subtle nuances to this (need 
rate limiting, need to detect DoS attempts via many half-open sessions, 
etc). I will work on text for this. The only way an existing session 
should be torn down is via timeout, or via a yet-to-be-defined directive 
received through another authenticated channel with the same WTP.

> To make the WTP re-joining faster, WTP may save the DTLS cookie on a
> persistent storage and (after a restart) presents the cookie to the AC to
> restore the DTLS connection, and thus avoiding the discovery phase. This
> concept is same as the one presented in "Idle to Join (aa)" transition,
> except that here presenting a valid cookie resets the state to join state,
> discarding any previous WTP state/stats maintained at AC.

I agree DTLS session resumption is something we should think about, but 
honestly, I haven't given it much thought yet. We need to think 
carefully about this, though. But here's an important point: discovery 
is optional - it is not required in order to initiate a dtls handshake.

> I _think_ that the above proposals will avoid discovery packet DoS attacks,
> and there is no need to use separate ports or extra mux header after udp
> header to differentiate among the discovery and DTLS packets.

Think this through again in light of my comments above. I still believe 
that erroneously pushing a discovery packet into the dtls engine (and 
re-testing all failed dtls packets to see if they are discovery) is bad 
form, a hack we don't need to allow, and a potential DoS avenue (if dtls 
is handled in hardware but discovery is handled by the control 
processor, then you can stuff the channel between the hw and cp with 
bogus packets, keeping both busy, and maybe causing real packets to be 
discarded in the process).

There are at least two options on the table for avoiding it (a separate 
discovery port or a type value just after the UDP header).

Scott

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Hi Scott,

I am sorry that I missed the point that discovery packets
do not result in any state change at AC. Actually, the DoS
issues I raised were the outcomes of the wrong assumption
that discovery packets change the AC state. Of course,
differentiation of discovery/DTLS packet by looking at the
wtp session would be a bad design, I beleive.

However, I can think of two other ways to make the distinction
among discovery/DTLS packets. These solutions (if they work)
would be less costlier than extra port or mux-based solutions:

1. Checksum at the end of discovery packets:
   All incoming packets are checked for _discovery-like_ packets
   by looking at the head bytes (as Pat proposed in this thread).
   If the packet looks like to be a discovery packet, then it
   is submitted for checksum calculation. The calculated checksum
   is compared with the last 4 bytes of the packet, and a match of
   the two would mark the packet as discovery packet. Otherwise,
   packet is submitted to DTLS module.

   Drawbacks:
     - extra processing at AC for false positives.
     - overhead of checksum calculation for discovery packets at
       WTP/AC.
   Limitations:
     - The mechanism to identify _discovery-like_ packets will affect
       the false positives and thus packet processing performance.

2. Reserved length for discovery packets:
   All discovery request packets sent by WTP are of size L (say 240
   bytes). Padding is added to the discovery packets to make it of
   exact size L. In case a DTLS packet to be sent to AC is of size L,
   then a (new) pad message element is added to increase the packet
   length.

   Limitations:
      - Selection of size L is critical. Note that DTLS layer may also =
send
        handshake packets of size L. If DTLS handshake packets does not
        following any lower/upper bound on packet length, or packet =
length
        alignment, then this scheme will not work. Otherwise, a very =
short
        lengthed marker message (of say 4 bytes) can also be used to =
mark the
        packet following it as discovery packet.

The latter solution looks like to be more of a hack, but I have put here
to give it also a thought. However, a combination of (1) and (2) may
work.

Thanks
Hasan


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott G Kelly [mailto:scott@hyperthought.com]
Sent: Sat 10/21/2006 12:24 PM
To: Hasan Raza
Cc: capwap@frascone.com; pcalhoun@cisco.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
=20
Hi Hasan,

Hasan Raza wrote:
> Hi,
>=20
> I think we are a bit closer than where we were earlier in terms of =
resolving
> this issue.
>=20
> I agree with the points which Scott has raised. And I feel that there =
are few
> DoS issues which have not been addressed properly in the capwap draft. =
May be
> resolving those issues first might give us a solution for the =
DTLS/Discovery
> packet identification issue (#224).
>=20
> To start with, we have to answer few questions:
> 1. How capwap is protected against discovery packet attacks? Even if =
there
> is a port-based or mux-based soltuion for reliably identifying =
discovery and
> DTLS packets, an attacker can send a discovery packet to the AC, which =
may
> result in the tear down of the WTP session. This is because discovery =
packets
> are un-authenticated packets, and are sent in plain. AC needs to =
blindly
> believe on the discovery packets.

Actually, I don't think this is necessarily the case. Since discovery=20
packets are unauthenticated, the AC should *never* act on them (other=20
than to send a discovery response). The draft currently states that the=20
AC should not maintain state when it receives a discovery request (for=20
this very reason), but we should probably add text noting that it should =

not modify existing state, either.

> 2. If an AC employs actions again discovery packet attacks by =
discarding
> discovery packets if WTP session did not timeout, then an attacker may
> prevent the WTP joining back to the AC after a WTP crash. Attacker can =
detect
> a sudden absence of echo request messages from WTP, and start =
replaying the
> WTP echo request messages which causes AC not to teardown the WTP =
session.
> And thus genuine discovery packets might be discarded by AC. May be I =
am wrong
> here if DTLS can detect duplicate packets and discard them =
automatically.

Yes, DTLS provides antireplay detection. I inaccurately said in an=20
earlier email that this is compulsory for DTLS - what I should have said =

is that it is compulsory for CAPWAP (it's optional in DTLS).

> To resolve the above issues, we can impose following rules on AC.
>=20
> For issue (1) above:
> RULE 1:
>   (a) AC discards all discovery packets if an active WTP session =
exists for the
>   WTP.
>   (b) A discovery packet from WTP can be accepted by AC only when =
there does
>   not exist any active session for that WTP. Whereas, if a discovery =
packet is
>   received if an active WTP session exists at AC, then all such =
discovery
>   packets are discarded without change or update of any of the AC =
states.

I think it's okay for the AC to respond, but it should not tear down an=20
existing association. It should only do this once the WTP re-joins (and=20
re-authenticates in the process). I'll think about better language for=20
the security considerations and the discovery processing.

> To resolve the second issue (if at all it exists):=20
> RULE 2:
>   AC should discard all duplicate DTLS and CAPWAP packets without =
change or
>   update of any of its states.

Maybe we need better language on this as well. The AC should be keeping=20
statistics relating to such events, at minimum.

> RULE (1) above will impose a constant delay in the WTP re-joining. =
Suppose a
> WTP crashes and comes up before WTP session at AC may timeout, all its
> discovery packets will be discarded by the WTP. But since AC won't be
> receiving any valid/authenticated packet which could refresh the WTP =
session,
> the WTP session would timeout after _fixed_ amount of time. This =
_fixed_
> amount of time is unfortunately not fixed since it can be changed
> administratively, by say updating echo interval at WTP or by changing =
response
> timeout values at AC.

As noted above, re-joining is independent of discovery operations - a=20
WTP should be able to initiate a new DTLS handshake even though a=20
session currently exists, but there are subtle nuances to this (need=20
rate limiting, need to detect DoS attempts via many half-open sessions,=20
etc). I will work on text for this. The only way an existing session=20
should be torn down is via timeout, or via a yet-to-be-defined directive =

received through another authenticated channel with the same WTP.

> To make the WTP re-joining faster, WTP may save the DTLS cookie on a
> persistent storage and (after a restart) presents the cookie to the AC =
to
> restore the DTLS connection, and thus avoiding the discovery phase. =
This
> concept is same as the one presented in "Idle to Join (aa)" =
transition,
> except that here presenting a valid cookie resets the state to join =
state,
> discarding any previous WTP state/stats maintained at AC.

I agree DTLS session resumption is something we should think about, but=20
honestly, I haven't given it much thought yet. We need to think=20
carefully about this, though. But here's an important point: discovery=20
is optional - it is not required in order to initiate a dtls handshake.

> I _think_ that the above proposals will avoid discovery packet DoS =
attacks,
> and there is no need to use separate ports or extra mux header after =
udp
> header to differentiate among the discovery and DTLS packets.

Think this through again in light of my comments above. I still believe=20
that erroneously pushing a discovery packet into the dtls engine (and=20
re-testing all failed dtls packets to see if they are discovery) is bad=20
form, a hack we don't need to allow, and a potential DoS avenue (if dtls =

is handled in hardware but discovery is handled by the control=20
processor, then you can stuff the channel between the hw and cp with=20
bogus packets, keeping both busy, and maybe causing real packets to be=20
discarded in the process).

There are at least two options on the table for avoiding it (a separate=20
discovery port or a type value just after the UDP header).

Scott



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<TITLE>RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports</TITLE>
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<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hi Scott,<BR>
<BR>
I am sorry that I missed the point that discovery packets<BR>
do not result in any state change at AC. Actually, the DoS<BR>
issues I raised were the outcomes of the wrong assumption<BR>
that discovery packets change the AC state. Of course,<BR>
differentiation of discovery/DTLS packet by looking at the<BR>
wtp session would be a bad design, I beleive.<BR>
<BR>
However, I can think of two other ways to make the distinction<BR>
among discovery/DTLS packets. These solutions (if they work)<BR>
would be less costlier than extra port or mux-based solutions:<BR>
<BR>
1. Checksum at the end of discovery packets:<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; All incoming packets are checked for _discovery-like_ =
packets<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; by looking at the head bytes (as Pat proposed in this =
thread).<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; If the packet looks like to be a discovery packet, then =
it<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; is submitted for checksum calculation. The calculated =
checksum<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; is compared with the last 4 bytes of the packet, and a =
match of<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; the two would mark the packet as discovery packet. =
Otherwise,<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; packet is submitted to DTLS module.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Drawbacks:<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - extra processing at AC for false =
positives.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - overhead of checksum calculation for =
discovery packets at<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WTP/AC.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Limitations:<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - The mechanism to identify _discovery-like_ =
packets will affect<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the false positives and thus packet =
processing performance.<BR>
<BR>
2. Reserved length for discovery packets:<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; All discovery request packets sent by WTP are of size L =
(say 240<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; bytes). Padding is added to the discovery packets to make =
it of<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; exact size L. In case a DTLS packet to be sent to AC is of =
size L,<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; then a (new) pad message element is added to increase the =
packet<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; length.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Limitations:<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - Selection of size L is critical. Note =
that DTLS layer may also send<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; handshake packets of size L. =
If DTLS handshake packets does not<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; following any lower/upper =
bound on packet length, or packet length<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; alignment, then this scheme =
will not work. Otherwise, a very short<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; lengthed marker message (of =
say 4 bytes) can also be used to mark the<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; packet following it as =
discovery packet.<BR>
<BR>
The latter solution looks like to be more of a hack, but I have put =
here<BR>
to give it also a thought. However, a combination of (1) and (2) may<BR>
work.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Hasan<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Scott G Kelly [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:scott@hyperthought.com">mailto:scott@hyperthought.com</A>]=
<BR>
Sent: Sat 10/21/2006 12:24 PM<BR>
To: Hasan Raza<BR>
Cc: capwap@frascone.com; pcalhoun@cisco.com<BR>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports<BR>
<BR>
Hi Hasan,<BR>
<BR>
Hasan Raza wrote:<BR>
&gt; Hi,<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; I think we are a bit closer than where we were earlier in terms of =
resolving<BR>
&gt; this issue.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; I agree with the points which Scott has raised. And I feel that =
there are few<BR>
&gt; DoS issues which have not been addressed properly in the capwap =
draft. May be<BR>
&gt; resolving those issues first might give us a solution for the =
DTLS/Discovery<BR>
&gt; packet identification issue (#224).<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; To start with, we have to answer few questions:<BR>
&gt; 1. How capwap is protected against discovery packet attacks? Even =
if there<BR>
&gt; is a port-based or mux-based soltuion for reliably identifying =
discovery and<BR>
&gt; DTLS packets, an attacker can send a discovery packet to the AC, =
which may<BR>
&gt; result in the tear down of the WTP session. This is because =
discovery packets<BR>
&gt; are un-authenticated packets, and are sent in plain. AC needs to =
blindly<BR>
&gt; believe on the discovery packets.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, I don't think this is necessarily the case. Since =
discovery<BR>
packets are unauthenticated, the AC should *never* act on them =
(other<BR>
than to send a discovery response). The draft currently states that =
the<BR>
AC should not maintain state when it receives a discovery request =
(for<BR>
this very reason), but we should probably add text noting that it =
should<BR>
not modify existing state, either.<BR>
<BR>
&gt; 2. If an AC employs actions again discovery packet attacks by =
discarding<BR>
&gt; discovery packets if WTP session did not timeout, then an attacker =
may<BR>
&gt; prevent the WTP joining back to the AC after a WTP crash. Attacker =
can detect<BR>
&gt; a sudden absence of echo request messages from WTP, and start =
replaying the<BR>
&gt; WTP echo request messages which causes AC not to teardown the WTP =
session.<BR>
&gt; And thus genuine discovery packets might be discarded by AC. May be =
I am wrong<BR>
&gt; here if DTLS can detect duplicate packets and discard them =
automatically.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, DTLS provides antireplay detection. I inaccurately said in an<BR>
earlier email that this is compulsory for DTLS - what I should have =
said<BR>
is that it is compulsory for CAPWAP (it's optional in DTLS).<BR>
<BR>
&gt; To resolve the above issues, we can impose following rules on =
AC.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; For issue (1) above:<BR>
&gt; RULE 1:<BR>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; (a) AC discards all discovery packets if an active WTP =
session exists for the<BR>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; WTP.<BR>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; (b) A discovery packet from WTP can be accepted by AC =
only when there does<BR>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; not exist any active session for that WTP. Whereas, if =
a discovery packet is<BR>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; received if an active WTP session exists at AC, then =
all such discovery<BR>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; packets are discarded without change or update of any =
of the AC states.<BR>
<BR>
I think it's okay for the AC to respond, but it should not tear down =
an<BR>
existing association. It should only do this once the WTP re-joins =
(and<BR>
re-authenticates in the process). I'll think about better language =
for<BR>
the security considerations and the discovery processing.<BR>
<BR>
&gt; To resolve the second issue (if at all it exists):<BR>
&gt; RULE 2:<BR>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; AC should discard all duplicate DTLS and CAPWAP packets =
without change or<BR>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; update of any of its states.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe we need better language on this as well. The AC should be =
keeping<BR>
statistics relating to such events, at minimum.<BR>
<BR>
&gt; RULE (1) above will impose a constant delay in the WTP re-joining. =
Suppose a<BR>
&gt; WTP crashes and comes up before WTP session at AC may timeout, all =
its<BR>
&gt; discovery packets will be discarded by the WTP. But since AC won't =
be<BR>
&gt; receiving any valid/authenticated packet which could refresh the =
WTP session,<BR>
&gt; the WTP session would timeout after _fixed_ amount of time. This =
_fixed_<BR>
&gt; amount of time is unfortunately not fixed since it can be =
changed<BR>
&gt; administratively, by say updating echo interval at WTP or by =
changing response<BR>
&gt; timeout values at AC.<BR>
<BR>
As noted above, re-joining is independent of discovery operations - =
a<BR>
WTP should be able to initiate a new DTLS handshake even though a<BR>
session currently exists, but there are subtle nuances to this (need<BR>
rate limiting, need to detect DoS attempts via many half-open =
sessions,<BR>
etc). I will work on text for this. The only way an existing session<BR>
should be torn down is via timeout, or via a yet-to-be-defined =
directive<BR>
received through another authenticated channel with the same WTP.<BR>
<BR>
&gt; To make the WTP re-joining faster, WTP may save the DTLS cookie on =
a<BR>
&gt; persistent storage and (after a restart) presents the cookie to the =
AC to<BR>
&gt; restore the DTLS connection, and thus avoiding the discovery phase. =
This<BR>
&gt; concept is same as the one presented in &quot;Idle to Join =
(aa)&quot; transition,<BR>
&gt; except that here presenting a valid cookie resets the state to join =
state,<BR>
&gt; discarding any previous WTP state/stats maintained at AC.<BR>
<BR>
I agree DTLS session resumption is something we should think about, =
but<BR>
honestly, I haven't given it much thought yet. We need to think<BR>
carefully about this, though. But here's an important point: =
discovery<BR>
is optional - it is not required in order to initiate a dtls =
handshake.<BR>
<BR>
&gt; I _think_ that the above proposals will avoid discovery packet DoS =
attacks,<BR>
&gt; and there is no need to use separate ports or extra mux header =
after udp<BR>
&gt; header to differentiate among the discovery and DTLS packets.<BR>
<BR>
Think this through again in light of my comments above. I still =
believe<BR>
that erroneously pushing a discovery packet into the dtls engine =
(and<BR>
re-testing all failed dtls packets to see if they are discovery) is =
bad<BR>
form, a hack we don't need to allow, and a potential DoS avenue (if =
dtls<BR>
is handled in hardware but discovery is handled by the control<BR>
processor, then you can stuff the channel between the hw and cp with<BR>
bogus packets, keeping both busy, and maybe causing real packets to =
be<BR>
discarded in the process).<BR>
<BR>
There are at least two options on the table for avoiding it (a =
separate<BR>
discovery port or a type value just after the UDP header).<BR>
<BR>
Scott<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT>
</P>

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Reply-To: "Agneta Nawrocki" <vityay@ahcnm.org>
From: "Agneta Nawrocki" <vityay@ahcnm.org>
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Hi,

VluAGRA for LESS http://www.jerpasdelionkdrun.com

=20
Threats penetrated where blandishments hadnt and we all moved off
decision. Are you part of that group?


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<H2>VluAGRA for LESS <A =
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m</A></H2>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV> Threats  penetrated where blandishments hadnt and we all  moved  =
off<BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Argue theres big difference between =
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Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:56:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>
To: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
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Some general comments first. CAPWAP is a protocol for managing Split/Local =
MAC WTPs. Support for roaming STAs is a small part of CAPWAP which could be=
 considered orthogonal. Roaming text is geared towards Split MAC WTPs. Some=
 people argued that 802.11i cannot be supported in CAPWAP because there is =
at least one value, i.e. KeyRSC should be set by WTP.=0A=0AThe same goes fo=
r 802.11r. There could be tendency to use CAPWAP only for management and us=
e 802.11r for roaming especially when WTPs are 802.11r enabled.=0A=0AHoweve=
r, in draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt we argue that CAPWAP could be ha=
rmonized with this new technology called 802.11r. We came up with a solutio=
n and we expect to receive constructive comments for improvement.=0A=0A----=
- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Charles Clancy <clancy@cs.umd.edu>=0ATo: Be=
hcet Sarikaya <sarikaya@ieee.org>=0ACc: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>=0ASent=
: Friday, October 20, 2006 9:21:00 AM=0ASubject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 80=
2.11r=0A=0ABehcet,=0A=0A11R D3 8.5A.6 (attached for those interested) defin=
es the basic =0Aproperties and summarizes the exchanges, but I don't see an=
y packet =0Aformats, transport mechanism, link security mechanism, or metho=
d for =0Aestablishing a trust relationship between the MDC and possible KHs=
.=0A=0A=3D=3D> 802.11r has all those. My proposal is AC to be the MDC and P=
MK R0 KH and Local MAC=0AWTPs PMK R1 KHs. I suggest that you read D3 and we=
 can have a face to face discussion in San Diego.=0A=0A=0AIn CAPWAP, there'=
s no AAA context to transfer, because the AAA context =0Aalways resides at =
the AC.  Using the existing mechanism for key =0Adistribution (via Add Mobi=
le messages) is sufficient for transporting =0APTKs to the WTPs.=0A=3D=3D>I=
n draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00, we have that for SplitMAC operation.=0A=
=0A-- =0At. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clanc=
y=0A=0ABehcet Sarikaya wrote:=0A> Hi Pat and Charles,=0A>  =0A> Section 8.5=
A.6 in 802.11r D3 describes the key distribution protocol. It =0A> is true =
that earlier versions like D2.2 did not have it.=0A> So my Local MAC scenar=
ios were based on this protocol.=0A>   The key distribution protocol makes =
it unnecessary to use the context =0A> transfer ahead of time and it is qui=
te nice to generate and transfer the =0A> key in a just-in-time manner. I t=
hought it was good and used it in CAPWAPRP.=0A> =0A  Regards,=0A=0ABehcet=
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
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<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;f=
ont-size:12pt"><div style=3D"font-family: courier,monaco,monospace,sans-ser=
if; font-size: 12pt;">Some general comments first. CAPWAP is a protocol for=
 managing Split/Local MAC WTPs. Support for roaming STAs is a small part of=
 CAPWAP which could be considered orthogonal. Roaming text is geared toward=
s Split MAC WTPs. Some people argued that 802.11i cannot be supported in CA=
PWAP because there is at least one value, i.e. KeyRSC should be set by WTP.=
<br><br>The same goes for 802.11r. There could be tendency to use CAPWAP on=
ly for management and use 802.11r for roaming especially when WTPs are 802.=
11r enabled.<br><br><a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/intern=
et-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fast">However, in draft-sarikaya-capwap-fas=
t</a>bss-00.txt we argue that CAPWAP could be harmonized with this new tech=
nology called 802.11r.
 We came up with a solution and we expect to receive constructive comments =
for improvement.<br><br><div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york=
,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">----- Original Message ----<br>From: Charle=
s Clancy &lt;clancy@cs.umd.edu&gt;<br>To: Behcet Sarikaya &lt;sarikaya@ieee=
.org&gt;<br>Cc: capwap &lt;capwap@frascone.com&gt;<br>Sent: Friday, October=
 20, 2006 9:21:00 AM<br>Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<br><br><di=
v>Behcet,<br><br>11R D3 8.5A.6 (attached for those interested) defines the =
basic <br>properties and summarizes the exchanges, but I don't see any pack=
et <br>formats, transport mechanism, link security mechanism, or method for=
 <br>establishing a trust relationship between the MDC and possible KHs.<br=
><br>=3D=3D&gt; 802.11r has all those. My proposal is AC to be the MDC and =
PMK R0 KH and Local MAC<br>WTPs PMK R1 KHs. I suggest that you read D3 and =
we can have a face to face discussion in San Diego.<br><br><br>In CAPWAP, t=
here's no AAA
 context to transfer, because the AAA context <br>always resides at the AC.=
&nbsp;&nbsp;Using the existing mechanism for key <br>distribution (via Add =
Mobile messages) is sufficient for transporting <br>PTKs to the WTPs.<br>=
=3D=3D&gt;In <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-draf=
ts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fast">draft-sarikaya-capwap-fast</a>bss-00, we hav=
e that for SplitMAC operation.<br><br>-- <br>t. charles clancy, ph.d.&nbsp;=
&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;tcc@umd.edu&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;<a target=3D"_blank"=
 href=3D"http://www.cs.umd.edu/%7Eclancy">www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy</a><br><br=
>Behcet Sarikaya wrote:<br>&gt; Hi Pat and Charles,<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>=
&gt; Section 8.5A.6 in 802.11r D3 describes the key distribution protocol. =
It <br>&gt; is true that earlier versions like D2.2 did not have it.<br>&gt=
; So my Local MAC scenarios were based on this protocol.<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; The key distribution protocol makes it unnecessary to use the context <br=
>&gt; transfer ahead of
 time and it is quite nice to generate and transfer the <br>&gt; key in a j=
ust-in-time manner. I thought it was good and used it in CAPWAPRP.<br>&gt; =
<br>&nbsp; Regards,<br><br>Behcet<br><br></div></div><br></div></div></body=
></html>
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Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 10:43:08 -0700
From: Scott G Kelly <scott@hyperthought.com>
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Hi Hasan,

Hasan Raza wrote:
> 
> Hi Scott,
> 
> I am sorry that I missed the point that discovery packets
> do not result in any state change at AC. Actually, the DoS
> issues I raised were the outcomes of the wrong assumption
> that discovery packets change the AC state. Of course,
> differentiation of discovery/DTLS packet by looking at the
> wtp session would be a bad design, I beleive.
> 
> However, I can think of two other ways to make the distinction
> among discovery/DTLS packets. These solutions (if they work)
> would be less costlier than extra port or mux-based solutions:
> 
> 1. Checksum at the end of discovery packets:
>    All incoming packets are checked for _discovery-like_ packets
>    by looking at the head bytes (as Pat proposed in this thread).
>    If the packet looks like to be a discovery packet, then it
>    is submitted for checksum calculation. The calculated checksum
>    is compared with the last 4 bytes of the packet, and a match of
>    the two would mark the packet as discovery packet. Otherwise,
>    packet is submitted to DTLS module.
> 
>    Drawbacks:
>      - extra processing at AC for false positives.
>      - overhead of checksum calculation for discovery packets at
>        WTP/AC.
>    Limitations:
>      - The mechanism to identify _discovery-like_ packets will affect
>        the false positives and thus packet processing performance.
> 
> 2. Reserved length for discovery packets:
>    All discovery request packets sent by WTP are of size L (say 240
>    bytes). Padding is added to the discovery packets to make it of
>    exact size L. In case a DTLS packet to be sent to AC is of size L,
>    then a (new) pad message element is added to increase the packet
>    length.
> 
>    Limitations:
>       - Selection of size L is critical. Note that DTLS layer may also send
>         handshake packets of size L. If DTLS handshake packets does not
>         following any lower/upper bound on packet length, or packet length
>         alignment, then this scheme will not work. Otherwise, a very short
>         lengthed marker message (of say 4 bytes) can also be used to 
> mark the
>         packet following it as discovery packet.
> 
> The latter solution looks like to be more of a hack, but I have put here
> to give it also a thought. However, a combination of (1) and (2) may
> 

Proposal 2 should be a non-starter - I agree that artificially limiting 
the packet size really is a hack, and in my opinion, it's a 
short-sighted one at that.

Proposal 1 is also a hack, albeit slightly more subtly so than proposal 
2. I can sort of understand why one might think anything which removes 
the need for a 3rd port is "less costly", but in general, I think this 
takes a rather narrow view.

After poking around quite a bit through various uses of TLS and DTLS, I 
can find no example where someone tries to combine unprotected and 
protected data in the same channel, which the exception of DCCP 
(draft-phelan-dccp-dtls-00.txt). In that case, the unprotected data 
precedes the protected data in the packet (i.e. DTLS encapuslates a 
payload).

I guess that here in capwap, we are now and forever doomed to referring 
to the unprotected bytes preceding the payload as a "mux-based 
solution", and with that we'll get all of people's related baggage and 
anxieties. I would suggest that everyone be objective about this, and 
reflect carefully on your reactions ("Search your feelings, Luke - you 
know it to be true!" :-)). But on a more serious note... this does not 
serve us well.

To unambiguously delineate between these two data types is very simple: 
give the capwap discovery protocol its own port, or add a type 
descriptor to the packets and encapsulate the non-discovery payloads in 
DTLS. No protocol gymnastics, no hacking - both are simple solutions 
that allow fast and definitive hardware-based switching of these packets.

Scott


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------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5D7AB.42BE14A0--




From domainnamefiresale@1-2-free.com Sun Oct 22 23:56:03 2006
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Date:	Mon, 23 Nov 2006 03:55:54 -0480
From:	"Gwendolyn Snell" <domainnamefiresale@1-2-free.com>
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To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: Will this Stock be a "Super Nova?"
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STOCnK ALEgRT!
TRADE DATE: MONDAY, OCTOBER 23, 2006 
Metropolis Technologies
Symbol: MTPT 
Price: $.135

GO LOOK AT THE CHART! DO YOU SEE ACCUMULATION?
READY FOR A "BLAST OFF" BREAK OUT?


RECENT NEWS: GO READ THE FULL STORIES!

Metropolis Technologies Corp. Summarizes $3,500,000 in 
Signed Contracts and Further Milestones Achievements for 2006

Metropolis Technologies Corp. Raises Revenue Expectations for 
the 4th Quarter of 2006


MASSIVE PR CAMPAIGN FOR MONDAY..
YOU MAY WANT TO GET IN "BEFORE THE CROWD"
RIDE THE BULL!!


Information within this report contains forward looking statements=20=
within 
the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21B=20=
of 
the SEC Act of 1934. Statements that involve discussions with respect to=20=

projections of future events. Don't rely on them. This company is not a=20=

reporting issuer. Past performance is never indicative of future=20=
results. 
We received three hundred thousand free trading shares in the past. We=20=
sold 
all those shares. We received three hundred fifty thousand now.We intend=20=
to 
sell all three hundred fifty thousand shares now, which could cause the=20=
stock 
to go down. All shares were received from the same third party, not an=20=
officer, 
director or affiliate. This company has: nominal cash, an accumulated=20=
deficit,a 
reliance on loans from officers,directors and/or affiliates,the float of=20=
stock is 
increasing and it had no revenue in its most recent quarter. These=20=
factors raise doubt 
about its ability to continue as a going concern. A failure to finance=20=
could cause 
the company to go out of business. This is a high risk security. This=20=
report shall 
not be construed as any kind of investment advice or solicitation.

if elizabeth, when mr. darcy gave her the letter, did not expect it to=20=
contain a renewal of hislong, during the whole of the journey. from=20=
elizabeth's thoughts it was never absent. fixed there bypardon me. it=20=
pains me to offend you. but amidst your concern for the defects of your=20=
nearestexpressed my hopes, and said he fear w. was not a man to be=20=
trusted. my poor mother is really ill, andpreservative from want. this=20=
preservative she had now obtained; and at the age of twenty-seven,
she explained what its effect on her had been, and how gradually all her=20=
former prejudices hadgreater than at home. he heard her attentively, and=20=
then said:when lady catherine and her daughter had played as long as=20=
they chose, the tables were broken
probably soon drive away his regard for me. you do not blame me,=20=
however, for refusing him?"people, where he had apparently least to do,=20=
and least temptation to go. conjectures as to the meaningmr. wickham's=20=
society was of material service in dispelling the gloom which the late=20=
perverse



From Lauri@anglo-zulu-war-books-tours.com Mon Oct 23 02:33:11 2006
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From:	Katina <Katina@angkor.de>
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God cures and the physician takes the fee. Laughter is the best medicine. L=
ife's what happens while you make other plans. Who guards the guards? To ea=
ch his own.
Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies. It's an ill wind that blows no =
good. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and=
 you feed him for a lifetime.
Keep no more cats than catch mice. You can't have it both ways. A little Le=
arning is a dang'rous Thing; A good surgeon has an eagle's eye, a lion's he=
art, and a lady's hand.
The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong. --M=
ahatma Gandhi Variety is the spice of life. If the mountain won't come to M=
uhammad, Muhammad must go to the mountain.. You have to crawl before you ca=
n walk. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. Still waters run deepest.
Every dog has his day. Anonymous And drinking largely sobers us again. Men =
age like wine; women age like milk. Possible Interpretation: All style and =
no substance.
Hair of the dog that bit you. You can take a horse to water, but a pencil m=
ust lead. People who live in glass houses shouldn't play golf. The teacher =
has not taught, until the student has learned. -Winnie Parkerson, Nacogdoch=
es County, TX Lead to Success, Follow to Failure (Robert D)


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<DIV><DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>CHOWCHILLA, California =
(AP) -- Sara Jane Olson, the former Symbionese Liberation Army fugitive who=
 became a Minnesota housewife and is now serving prison time for trying to =
bomb police cars in the 1970s, says she tries to hide her radical past from=
 her fe<BR>NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Wall Street bonuses will rise 15 percent t=
his year, with larger increases for investment bankers and equities traders=
 as merger activity surges and stocks rise, according to a study released M=
onday.<BR>BOSTON, Massachusetts (Reuters) -- The maker of the Segway scoote=
r Monday unveiled the second generation of its self-balancing electric one-=
person vehicle.</FONT></DIV><IMG alt=3D"#986927" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:0014=
01c6f6af$b983f360$000c8e8c@commonorda58aa" align=3Dbaseline border=3D0></DI=
V><DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>WASHINGTON (AP) -- The thw=
arted terrorist airline plot in Britain is sparking a bitter new round of f=
inger-pointing in Connecticut's bruising Senate race. ding women in corpora=
te America. MIAMI, Florida (AP) -- Every hurricane season, clusters of show=
ers and thunderstorms roll off the coast of Africa and head over the Atlant=
ic toward America. Most of these 60 or so tropical waves never do any harm.=
 But about 10 eventually grow into tropica NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Warren Buf=
fett's Berkshire Hathaway Inc. said Monday it has amassed a 1.97 million sh=
are stake in Johnson & Johnson, and appears to have sold shares of clothing=
 retailer Gap Inc. More than 200 homes evacuated in Richmond, Virginia</FON=
T></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>NASHVILLE, Tennessee (Court =
TV) -- The father of a Nashville attorney on trial for killing his wife cla=
ims he reburied his murdered daughter-in-law and disposed of evidence relat=
ing to her killing. ASIA More Asia News BANGKOK, THAILAND: Thai bombs leave=
 2 dead, 28 hurt Atlantis' astronauts strapped into the space shuttle Thurs=
day for a practice launch countdown more than two weeks before they are sch=
eduled to blast off on a mission to resume construction of the internationa=
l space station. CANBERRA, Australia (Reuters) -- Australian scientists hav=
e begun looking at smell sensors in worms and insects to help them build an=
 electronic "cybernose" they hope will one day be capable of measuring arom=
as and flavors in wine. CANBERRA, Australia (Reuters) -- Australian scienti=
sts have begun looking at smell sensors in worms and insects to help them b=
uild an electronic "cybernose" they hope will one day be capable of measuri=
ng aromas and flavors in wine. FARGO, North Dakota (AP) -- Alfonso Rodrigue=
z Jr. stabbed college student Dru Sjodin, slit her throat and left her to d=
ie, a federal prosecutor told jurors Monday.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>llow inmates. WASHINGTON (CN=
N) -- President Bush declared Lebanon a front in the "global war on terrori=
sm" Monday, equating the Israeli battle against Lebanon's Hezbollah guerril=
las to the U.S.-led wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. NEW YORK (AP) -- Talk-sho=
w hosts Jerry Springer and conservative Tucker Carlson of MSNBC will be amo=
ng the celebrities competing on the third season of ABC television's "Danci=
ng With the Stars. CHOWCHILLA, California (AP) -- Sara Jane Olson, the form=
er Symbionese Liberation Army fugitive who became a Minnesota housewife and=
 is now serving prison time for trying to bomb police cars in the 1970s, sa=
ys she tries to hide her radical past from her fe BOSTON, Massachusetts (Re=
uters) -- The maker of the Segway scooter Monday unveiled the second genera=
tion of its self-balancing electric one-person vehicle. Lockheed beats Boei=
ng for moon launcher EA scores touchdown with Madden</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>NASHVILLE, Tennessee (Court =
TV) -- The father of a Nashville attorney on trial for killing his wife cla=
ims he reburied his murdered daughter-in-law and disposed of evidence relat=
ing to her killing. CHOWCHILLA, California (AP) -- Sara Jane Olson, the for=
mer Symbionese Liberation Army fugitive who became a Minnesota housewife an=
d is now serving prison time for trying to bomb police cars in the 1970s, s=
ays she tries to hide her radical past from her fe NASHVILLE, Tennessee (Co=
urt TV) -- The father of a Nashville attorney on trial for killing his wife=
 claims he reburied his murdered daughter-in-law and disposed of evidence r=
elating to her killing. Are you paid what you're worth? WASHINGTON (AP) -- =
The thwarted terrorist airline plot in Britain is sparking a bitter new rou=
nd of finger-pointing in Connecticut's bruising Senate race. l storms or mo=
nster hurricanes like Katrina and Andrew.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Atlantis' astronauts strappe=
d into the space shuttle Thursday for a practice launch countdown more than=
 two weeks before they are scheduled to blast off on a mission to resume co=
nstruction of the international space station. NEW YORK (AP) -- Talk-show h=
osts Jerry Springer and conservative Tucker Carlson of MSNBC will be among =
the celebrities competing on the third season of ABC television's "Dancing =
With the Stars. NEW YORK (Fortune) -- For the past decade, Honda has been o=
ut of step with most of its North American competitors - sometimes defiantl=
y so. Atlantis' astronauts strapped into the space shuttle Thursday for a p=
ractice launch countdown more than two weeks before they are scheduled to b=
last off on a mission to resume construction of the international space sta=
tion. More than 200 homes evacuated in Richmond, Virginia AFGHANISTAN: 14 B=
ritons dead in Afghan aircraft crash LONDON</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hedge fund may boost McDonal=
d's stake Layoffs loom -- how safe are you? CANBERRA, Australia (Reuters) -=
- Australian scientists have begun looking at smell sensors in worms and in=
sects to help them build an electronic "cybernose" they hope will one day b=
e capable of measuring aromas and flavors in wine. ENGLAND: Top judge to ru=
le on Diana death ENGLAND: Top judge to rule on Diana death CANBERRA, Austr=
alia (Reuters) -- Australian scientists have begun looking at smell sensors=
 in worms and insects to help them build an electronic "cybernose" they hop=
e will one day be capable of measuring aromas and flavors in wine.</FONT></=
DIV>
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Well... it depends on what fails. Some configuration parameters are
crucial on the WTP, while others could be considered less necessary. I
believe there is already an issue open to track this problem set, but I
do not have network access at this time, and therefore cannot look.
However, one proposal here would be to mark each message elements
importance (mandatory, optional), and any mandatory message elements
that causes the failure would be considered castatrophic. The WTP could
interpret any failures on an optional message element is sufficient to
allow it to provide service. The actual failure would be communicated to
the AC, which would then make a determination on whether it wants the
WTP to provide service.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
[mailto:peter.j.nilsson@ericsson.com]=20
	Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 1:07 AM
	To: Capwap@frascone.com
	Subject: [Capwap] Handling of failed requests
=09
=09

	Hi,=20

	The CAPWAP specification is not very clear on how to handle a
failure indication in the Result Code message element in the response to
certain request messages.

	Join Request and Reset Request I guess is OK.=20
	But what shall be done in AC and WTP if Configuration Update
Requests, WLAN Configuration Requests and Station Request fail?

	One drastic approach would be to as mentioned in the spec for
Reset Response "to no longer provide service to the WTP in question".

	But this seems a litle bit to drastic if WLAN Configuration and
Station Requests fails.=20

	Peter Nilsson=20


------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F6AF.88E046BD
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	charset="us-ascii"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Handling of failed requests</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2976" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D506410104-23102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Well... it depends on what fails. Some configuration parameters =
are=20
crucial on the WTP, while others could be considered less necessary. I =
believe=20
there is already an issue open to track this problem set, but I do not =
have=20
network access at this time, and therefore cannot look. However, one =
proposal=20
here would be to mark each message elements importance (mandatory, =
optional),=20
and any mandatory message elements that causes the failure would be =
considered=20
castatrophic. The WTP could interpret any failures on an optional =
message=20
element is sufficient to allow it to provide service. The actual failure =
would=20
be communicated to the AC, which would then make a determination on =
whether it=20
wants the WTP to provide service.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><!-- Converted from =
text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)=20
  [mailto:peter.j.nilsson@ericsson.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, =
October 19,=20
  2006 1:07 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Capwap@frascone.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
[Capwap]=20
  Handling of failed requests<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV><!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi,</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The CAPWAP specification is not very =
clear on how=20
  to handle a failure indication in the Result Code message element in =
the=20
  response to certain request messages.</FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Join Request and Reset Request I guess =
is=20
  OK.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But what shall be done in =
AC and WTP if=20
  Configuration Update Requests, WLAN Configuration Requests and Station =
Request=20
  fail?</FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>One drastic approach would be to as =
mentioned in=20
  the spec for Reset Response "to no longer provide service to the WTP =
in=20
  question".</FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But this seems a litle bit to drastic =
if WLAN=20
  Configuration and Station Requests fails. </FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Peter Nilsson</FONT> =
</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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	"Behcet Sarikaya" <sarikaya@ieee.org>
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I agree with Charles - but I do believe there is a single issue. In the
case of local MAC, the IEEE 802.11 binding states that the WTP processes
the Association Request and then forwards it to the AC. The AC can
override the decision made by the WTP by sending a negative result
Association Response. 

When 802.11r, the local MAC WTP will not have the cryptographic keys
necessary to validate the Association Request, so it would *have* to
defer to the AC. The question is whether this is acceptable as it does
change the timing of the Association round trip. One alternative is to
push the PMK-R1 keys to the WTP to allow the WTP to perform its own
authentication of the management frame.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] 
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:27 PM
> To: Behcet Sarikaya
> Cc: capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
> 
> Behcet,
> 
> > My proposal is to use the key distribution protocol of 
> 802.11r which 
> > securely transports the keys.
> > Also no need for the context transfer which was what I had in mind.
> 
> My point is that we don't need to distribute PMK-R1 keys 
> since all authenticator functionality will reside at the AC 
> regardless of the MAC splitting, so we therefore don't need a 
> new key distribution protocol at all.
> 
> Here's how I envision an 11r handoff:
> 
> STA            WTP1           WTP2              AC
> --------------------------------------------------
> 
> Initial authentication (as CAPWAP does now):
> 
> <--- assoc ----->
> <-------------- open authentication ------------->
> <----------------- 1X/EAP authentication -------->
>                (derives PMK-R0, PMK-R1)
> <--------------- four-way handshake ------------->
>                    (derives PTK)
>                 <---------- add mobile (PTK) -----
> 
> fast handoff:
> 
>                (AC and STA derive new PMK-R1')
> <------- FT / reassoc (PMK Name, MIC, etc) ------>
>                   (derives new PTK')
>                               <- add mobile (PTK')
>                 <---------- delete mobile --------
> 
> 
> > Can you spare your ideas why that would not work in CAPWAP?
> 
> I'm not sure to what you're referring.  Using the 
> yet-to-be-defined 11r key distribution protocol duplicates 
> the add-mobile CAPWAP architecture for distributing keying 
> material.  Additionally, it violates the security restriction 
> that keys from the PMK-level in the keying hierarchy MUST 
> remain at the authenticator, which is the AC.
> 
> > You're saying we only need the split MAC scenarios that I 
> have in the 
> > draft.
> 
> I'm saying that CAPWAP can support 11r without any protocol 
> changes.  The only changes I can envision being necessary are 
> perhaps capabilities flags indicating support for 11r, so ACs 
> and WTPs know that each other supports 11r.  All the 11r 
> protocol processing would be implemented at the AC.  The WTP 
> would just have to know about the additional 802.11 messages, 
> and know they should be forwarded to the AC.  WTPs and ACs 
> would also have to support AES-CMAC, which is defined in 11r.
> 
> --
> t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
> 
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	To start with, we have to answer few questions:
	1. How capwap is protected against discovery packet attacks?
Even if there
	is a port-based or mux-based soltuion for reliably identifying
discovery and
	DTLS packets, an attacker can send a discovery packet to the AC,
which may
	result in the tear down of the WTP session. This is because
discovery packets
	are un-authenticated packets, and are sent in plain. AC needs to
blindly
	believe on the discovery packets.
	
	2. If an AC employs actions again discovery packet attacks by
discarding
	discovery packets if WTP session did not timeout, then an
attacker may
	prevent the WTP joining back to the AC after a WTP crash.
Attacker can detect
	a sudden absence of echo request messages from WTP, and start
replaying the
	WTP echo request messages which causes AC not to teardown the
WTP session.
	And thus genuine discovery packets might be discarded by AC. May
be I am wrong
	here if DTLS can detect duplicate packets and discard them
automatically.
	
	
	To resolve the above issues, we can impose following rules on
AC.
	
	For issue (1) above:
	RULE 1:
	  (a) AC discards all discovery packets if an active WTP session
exists for the
	  WTP.
	  (b) A discovery packet from WTP can be accepted by AC only
when there does
	  not exist any active session for that WTP. Whereas, if a
discovery packet is
	  received if an active WTP session exists at AC, then all such
discovery
	  packets are discarded without change or update of any of the
AC states.
<PRC> I disagree with this approach, and disagree with any mechanisms
that will create
delays before a WTP can reconnect to its AC. The couple of previous
posts included a
method to quickly detect the WTP had failed - in a secure fashion.

	
	To resolve the second issue (if at all it exists):
	RULE 2:
	  AC should discard all duplicate DTLS and CAPWAP packets
without change or
	  update of any of its states.
<PRC> Sort of a bogus attack, but one that I suppose is possible. I
would once more 
resort to my proposal that if the WTP can re-establish a successful DTLS
(using a new
UDP source port), then the old control and data channels are deleted.	
	

	
Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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> Would having 3 UDP ports solve the problem:
> (a) capwap-open control port : All unencrypted capwap control 
> packets go on this channel

There is really only two CAPWAP packets that are in the clear - the
Discovery packets. One alternative is to simply use the DTLS packet
header, filled with zeroes. Yes, there is still some risk here because
the DTLS header can change format, as stated by Scott. However, even so,
we could agree on today's DTLS version for the unencrypted frames. A
series of zeroes would imply an empty DTLS header, followed by the
unencrypted CAPWAP control frame.

> (b) capwap-open data port : All unencrypted capwap data 
> packets go on this channel
> (b) capwap-secure port: All dtls encrypted capwap 
> data/control packets go on this channel. Demux for data vs 
> control happens after decryption.

It's not completely obvious to me why the data plane packet format is
not known apriori. The control channel will negotiate the use of crypto
on the data channel, and all data plane packets received MUST be in the
format negotiated.

Assume for the moment a device negotiates crypto, but opts to send a
plain text packet. Let's also assume that the packet had a way to signal
it was in the clear (either through a bit, ot via a separate UDP port).
Further, if the packet was supposed to be encrypted, as the bit or port
indicates, but the packet is in the clear, then a CAPWAP device would
have to attempt to decrypt the packet, which would fail and be dropped.

So it seems to me like it is completely valid to simply have the
endpoints (WTP, AC) remember the negotiated value (hell, you need to in
order to transmit packets anyhow), and simply enforce the policy based
on packets received.

So it does seem to me like a dual port approach is completely possible.
If there is concern about the empty DTLS header, then the three UDP port
number is still an option.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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> [NKA] My point is that seperate discovery packet processing 
> via a special port is a bad idea. And it doesn't bring any 
> additional value than what can be achieved without special 
> port approach. Scott's additional reasoning that two port 
> approach would open up scope for DOS atack. I totally 
> disagree with the argument. I claim that the same risk exists 
> even with 3-port approach also.

In my previous post, I suggested the use of the source UDP port 
number in the DTLS SA table. This is required to support both the
control and data plane being encrypted. However, it can also be used
to detect a failed/reset WTP, but ensuring that the Discovery Request
is sent from a new source UDP port. This does impose a requirement for
random UDP ports on the WTP, but this is not out of the question since
the RADIUS protocol imposes this on "fat" APs.

That said, it is important to note that the "old" DTLS SA MUST not be
torn down, or dismissed in any way until a new DTLS SA can be
established
using the new UDP source port.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
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Bob,

The names "Discovery Timer" and "Echo Timer" are not used in the CAPWAP
specification. I will assume you mean the DiscoveryInterval and
EchoInterval. I believe the issue you are raising is that the text is
not descriptive on what to expect if the timer value is set to zero (0).
This is a valid issue that does need to be addressed.

I am OK with your proposal to simply disable the Echo mechanism when the
timer value is set to zero.

For DiscoveryInterval, I would propose we make the value illegal in the
spec, and state that any illegal values MUST use the default value.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) 
> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 1:39 PM
> To: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: [Capwap] CAPWAP Timer element issue
> 
> In 4.4.12 of the -03 draft, the Discovery Timer and Echo 
> Timer fields are defined.  The value of the field determines 
> the number of seconds between the two types of Request 
> packets.  What does a value of zero mean in this field?
> 
> For the Echo Timer, I would propose that a value of zero be 
> defined to mean that no Echo Request packets are sent.  For 
> the Discovery Timer, I would propose that a value of zero be 
> reserved and, if received by a WTP, is interpreted to be the 
> same as if the value of 1 was received.
> 
>  -Bob
> 
> Bob O'Hara
> Cisco Systems - WNBU
> 
> Phone:  +1 408 853 5513
> Mobile: +1 408 218 4025
>  
> _________________________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 12:00:38 -0400 (EDT)
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Cc: Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya@ieee.org>, capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
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Unless PMK-R1s are preemptively distributed to WTPs to which a STA might
roam (neighbor graphs, anyone?), you'll still have the WTP-AC latency for
the WTP to request a PMK-R1 from the AC (R0KH).  This would be about equal
to the latency of having the AC validating Association Request packets.

Does 11r let you proactively distribute PMK-R1s?  I don't see any
references in D3... all I see is the reactive distribution protocol.

My understanding is that one of the reasons 11r is faster is because keys
can be *reactively* transfered directly between APs without having to go
through the AAA server.  Unfortunately our main security association is
with the AC, not the WTP, and inter-WTP communications is bad, so
everything will have to go through the AC.

-- 
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  <>  tcc@umd.edu  <>  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy

On Mon, October 23, 2006 10:28 am, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote:
> I agree with Charles - but I do believe there is a single issue. In the
> case of local MAC, the IEEE 802.11 binding states that the WTP processes
> the Association Request and then forwards it to the AC. The AC can
> override the decision made by the WTP by sending a negative result
> Association Response.
>
> When 802.11r, the local MAC WTP will not have the cryptographic keys
> necessary to validate the Association Request, so it would *have* to
> defer to the AC. The question is whether this is acceptable as it does
> change the timing of the Association round trip. One alternative is to
> push the PMK-R1 keys to the WTP to allow the WTP to perform its own
> authentication of the management frame.
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:27 PM
>> To: Behcet Sarikaya
>> Cc: capwap
>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>>
>> Behcet,
>>
>> > My proposal is to use the key distribution protocol of
>> 802.11r which
>> > securely transports the keys.
>> > Also no need for the context transfer which was what I had in mind.
>>
>> My point is that we don't need to distribute PMK-R1 keys
>> since all authenticator functionality will reside at the AC
>> regardless of the MAC splitting, so we therefore don't need a
>> new key distribution protocol at all.
>>
>> Here's how I envision an 11r handoff:
>>
>> STA            WTP1           WTP2              AC
>> --------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Initial authentication (as CAPWAP does now):
>>
>> <--- assoc ----->
>> <-------------- open authentication ------------->
>> <----------------- 1X/EAP authentication -------->
>>                (derives PMK-R0, PMK-R1)
>> <--------------- four-way handshake ------------->
>>                    (derives PTK)
>>                 <---------- add mobile (PTK) -----
>>
>> fast handoff:
>>
>>                (AC and STA derive new PMK-R1')
>> <------- FT / reassoc (PMK Name, MIC, etc) ------>
>>                   (derives new PTK')
>>                               <- add mobile (PTK')
>>                 <---------- delete mobile --------
>>
>>
>> > Can you spare your ideas why that would not work in CAPWAP?
>>
>> I'm not sure to what you're referring.  Using the
>> yet-to-be-defined 11r key distribution protocol duplicates
>> the add-mobile CAPWAP architecture for distributing keying
>> material.  Additionally, it violates the security restriction
>> that keys from the PMK-level in the keying hierarchy MUST
>> remain at the authenticator, which is the AC.
>>
>> > You're saying we only need the split MAC scenarios that I
>> have in the
>> > draft.
>>
>> I'm saying that CAPWAP can support 11r without any protocol
>> changes.  The only changes I can envision being necessary are
>> perhaps capabilities flags indicating support for 11r, so ACs
>> and WTPs know that each other supports 11r.  All the 11r
>> protocol processing would be implemented at the AC.  The WTP
>> would just have to know about the additional 802.11 messages,
>> and know they should be forwarded to the AC.  WTPs and ACs
>> would also have to support AES-CMAC, which is defined in 11r.
>>
>> --
>> t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
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>>
>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
>>
>

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From bostj@fahnestock.com Mon Oct 23 12:13:35 2006
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Reply-To: "Dominga Mccausland" <bostj@fahnestock.com>
From: "Dominga Mccausland" <bostj@fahnestock.com>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Re: VlbAGRA
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:10:31 -0700
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Hi,

GREAT VlbAGRA http://www.pisadesinjionkadesun.com

=20
What is it?
Your last request, Neuredan said. That and a cigarette.


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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV> What is it?<BR>
 Your last request, Neuredan said. That and a =
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From Ines@angrybeaton.com Mon Oct 23 13:44:24 2006
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From:	Annmarie <Annmarie@angling.is>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: do the many
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 19:44:06 +0200
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That which does not kill you, makes you stronger. Blood is thicker than wat=
er. No pain, no gain. Possible Interpretation: If something is good for one=
 person, it is good for everyone; Worrying is like sitting in a rocking cha=
ir. It gives you something to do but it doesn't get you anywhere
First come, first served. Hope for the best, expect the worst. This could a=
lso be read as, A friend in need is a friend in debt.
Variant for slow risers: The early worm gets eaten by the birds. Nature, ti=
me, and patience are three great physicians. Fine words butter no parsnips.=
 Tomorrow is another day.
Fine feathers make fine birds. Good eating deserves good drinking. Time is =
of the essence. One fly makes a summer. Mark Twain Possible Interpretation:=
 Those that are helped are not the best. Keep no more cats than catch mice.=

Never, Never... allow anyone to persuade you to suspend your common sense. =
Don't bite the hand that feeds you. God is a living God. The more you know,=
 the less you need.
Possible Interpretation: Everybody needs other people. People who live in g=
lass houses have to answer the door. Good men are scarce. The English are a=
 nation of shopkeepers (attributed to Napoleon) It takes two to make a quar=
rel.


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0">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2963" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>NEW YORK (Reuters) -- W=
arren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway Inc. said Monday it has amassed a 1.97 m=
illion share stake in Johnson & Johnson, and appears to have sold shares of=
 clothing retailer Gap Inc.<BR>Layoffs loom -- how safe are you?<BR>Broadco=
m to stay on Qualcomm's case</FONT></DIV><IMG alt=3D"#463D9936" hspace=3D0 =
src=3D"cid:001501c6f6db$9991fcb0$001023ac@solidsnake" align=3Dbaseline bord=
er=3D0></DIV><DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ernesto blamed =
for knocking out power to more than 400,000 NASHVILLE, Tennessee (Court TV)=
 -- The father of a Nashville attorney on trial for killing his wife claims=
 he reburied his murdered daughter-in-law and disposed of evidence relating=
 to her killing. KANDAHAR, AFGHANISTAN: 14 dead in Afghanistan crash Ernest=
o blamed for knocking out power to more than 400,000 WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Pr=
esident Bush declared Lebanon a front in the "global war on terrorism" Mond=
ay, equating the Israeli battle against Lebanon's Hezbollah guerrillas to t=
he U.S.-led wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>NASHVILLE, Tennessee (Court =
TV) -- The father of a Nashville attorney on trial for killing his wife cla=
ims he reburied his murdered daughter-in-law and disposed of evidence relat=
ing to her killing. Lockheed beats Boeing for moon launcher ding women in c=
orporate America. WASHINGTON (AP) -- The thwarted terrorist airline plot in=
 Britain is sparking a bitter new round of finger-pointing in Connecticut's=
 bruising Senate race. NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Wall Street bonuses will rise =
15 percent this year, with larger increases for investment bankers and equi=
ties traders as merger activity surges and stocks rise, according to a stud=
y released Monday. Latest job growth numbers: 'Just right'</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>NEW YORK (CM) -- Soft drink =
and snack company PepsiCo Inc. announced Monday that chief financial office=
r Indra Nooyi will take over from Chairman and CEO Steve Reinemund this Oct=
ober. She becomes the first woman to hold the post and enters the list of l=
ea At least five deaths blamed on Ernesto Hedge fund may boost McDonald's s=
take WASHINGTON (AP) -- The thwarted terrorist airline plot in Britain is s=
parking a bitter new round of finger-pointing in Connecticut's bruising Sen=
ate race. Hedge fund may boost McDonald's stake EA scores touchdown with Ma=
dden Hedge fund may boost McDonald's stake</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>COLOMBO, SRI LANKA: '100 Tig=
ers dead' in sea battle FARGO, North Dakota (AP) -- Alfonso Rodriguez Jr. s=
tabbed college student Dru Sjodin, slit her throat and left her to die, a f=
ederal prosecutor told jurors Monday. ENGLAND: Top judge to rule on Diana d=
eath Broadcom to stay on Qualcomm's case WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush=
 declared Lebanon a front in the "global war on terrorism" Monday, equating=
 the Israeli battle against Lebanon's Hezbollah guerrillas to the U.S.-led =
wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. At least five deaths blamed on Ernesto</FONT>=
</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>NEW YORK (Fortune) -- For th=
e past decade, Honda has been out of step with most of its North American c=
ompetitors - sometimes defiantly so. NASHVILLE, Tennessee (Court TV) -- The=
 father of a Nashville attorney on trial for killing his wife claims he reb=
uried his murdered daughter-in-law and disposed of evidence relating to her=
 killing. NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway Inc. sa=
id Monday it has amassed a 1.97 million share stake in Johnson & Johnson, a=
nd appears to have sold shares of clothing retailer Gap Inc. Latest job gro=
wth numbers: 'Just right' COLOMBO, SRI LANKA: '100 Tigers dead' in sea batt=
le More than 200 homes evacuated in Richmond, Virginia</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wealth gap between richest a=
nd the average Joe grows 50% since the 1960s COLOMBO, SRI LANKA: '100 Tiger=
s dead' in sea battle CHOWCHILLA, California (AP) -- Sara Jane Olson, the f=
ormer Symbionese Liberation Army fugitive who became a Minnesota housewife =
and is now serving prison time for trying to bomb police cars in the 1970s,=
 says she tries to hide her radical past from her fe WASHINGTON (AP) -- The=
 thwarted terrorist airline plot in Britain is sparking a bitter new round =
of finger-pointing in Connecticut's bruising Senate race. Are you paid what=
 you're worth? Lions cut ties with former No. 2 pick Rogers</FONT></DIV>
</BODY></HTML>


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Subject: Seenjudith hansen Minnesota lot.
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Known pseudonym a Atrios or Glenn Reynolds kos Alex Steffen ana Marie am =
cox Wonkette Hugh Hewitt direction or adding reach old important Tsunami =
Medecins Sans.
Handy resource designing is serve along lesson supplies tests assessing =
Passage of enjoyable read havent pleasure of meeting thing days sum.
Jitsu a ten bjj la Clippers mlb Monkey bar Gymnasium vp Lifeline =
Usafitness in Madison wi difference in truth teaches lives words of =
stuff sound important.

Figure Skating Freestyle Ladies of men or Gymnastics Halls is Fame =
Handball Hang Gliding Hiking Ball Field Inline Horseshoe Jiujitsu Judo!
Billiards Bobsleigh Body Building or Five pin Broomball Coaching Cross =
Country Skiing.
Staff am Frank Nunez Miami initiating in regiment Lyle w Honolulu hi =
point advice Kbells Pavelizer a boring weight. Yone suprised guys Rkcsam =
Twito Northfield Mnyou planrated contains exact a kbs living near or =
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achieved taken feels.
Wiki goes Marlow c or Conference Orleans la Fickling David a killed tv =
star Newsblog Bonnie sky a gets?
Cemented a source Howard Dean Wesley Clark Meanwhile number experts =
blogged making am indepth of.
Benchmarks or achieved of taken feels concerned repetitive of rear ugly =
head fills or?
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Known pseudonym a Atrios or Glenn =
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old=20
important Tsunami Medecins Sans.<BR>Handy resource designing is serve =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Figure Skating Freestyle Ladies of men =
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
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> I've been re-thinking my position on this, given that the 
> working group is committed to a multiport approach. Certainly 
> there are multiple ways to solve this, and while I would 
> prefer a solution that didn't involve adding yet more ports, 
> we are where we are.
> 
> That said, I think adding a 3rd port which is only used for 
> discovery operations solves part of the problem.  In that 
> case, the control channel is always DTLS traffic, and we have 
> an unambiguous solution which requires no protocol hacks.

True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third port
is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people to
consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is "hack-ish", but 
I believe it to be completely workable.

> 
> As for the data channel, it's a little more complex. If 
> hardware vendors must know a priori whether data is protected 
> or not, the only options are either two data ports or a type 
> header, and given the dramatic allergic reactions we've seen 
> to protocol layering beyond the udp header here, distinct 
> ports seem to be the only option on the table. However, if 
> hardware vendors support tuple-plumbing, we can do this with 
> one data port.
> 
> Tuple-plumbing solves the problem by letting the application 
> tell the hardware when a session is protected or not, but you 
> have to look at the source port too. This is part of the 
> problem some of Pat's signalling is meant to solve. Once the 
> AC knows what characteristics a given tuple should have, this 
> can be plumbed into the hardare.

I'm a big believer that the data plane must know apriori the
CAPWAP data plane formats. Regardless, one must validate the
packet to detect erroneous formats, so an implementation that
guards itself against attacks, which folks should be implementing,
will not view this as a deficit.

> 
> This still leaves two problems: associating a NAT'd data 
> channel with the appropriate control channel, and the QoS 
> problem for the data channel. The channel association can be 
> solved by using the session ID, as has been noted numerous 
> times in past threads. One way this could be extended to 
> encompass multiple data channels would be to extend the 
> session ID field, and treat the high-order portion as the 
> session id, and the low-order portion as the channel id 
> (control channel has channel id 0, data channel with no QoS 
> has channel id 1, and so on). Just a thought.

Right, and recall in my proposal that I had proposed two alternatives,
one more complex than the other. The simpler approach was to simply
include a session ID in the CAPWAP header, which was used to
create the correlation between the control and data plane.

> 
> Since there will be initial ambiguity when multiple WTPs are 
> behind a NAT, there are two options:
> 
> 1) don't worry about it; let the WTP establish a DTLS session 
> without knowing which control channel it belongs to, and then 
> get the session binding out of the first protected data 
> packet (which may be an echo) to create the binding; if no 
> packets come within some preset interval, tear down the DTLS session.
> 
> 2) do some inline signalling, as Pat suggested. This could be 
> via a capwap header with some special value, or it could be 
> the text STARTDTLS along with the session/channel id - whatever.

The above alternative requires no inline signalling on the data plane,
and only requires that the session ID be present in the header to help
associate both planes.

This does not, however, also address keeping the NAT table fresh. 
In my proposal, I had included an inline signalling scheme to keep
the session alive, but I now realize there are much simpler methods of
handling this. The WTP could simply send an 802.11 NULL data frame
(either on behalf of a valid station, or some agreed upon MAC address
defined in the CAPWAP standard).

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
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Message-ID: <369e612f0610231449v7fc448bap7d2a36fb72a51f54@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 03:19:59 +0530
From: "Navin (NKA)" <nka.capwap@gmail.com>
To: pcalhoun@cisco.com, "Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>
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Cc: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] Seperate Port Vs Common Port Approach Comparison...
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Pat, Scott, et all,

Below, I have taken the liberty of comparing 'seperate port' apporach
with 'Common Port' approach.

To me it looks like, there is no additional advantage in going with
'seperate port'
approach. 'Common port' approach's behaviour (during normal
functioning as well as DoS attack) is nearly same as 'seperate port'
approach. Please go through
the comparison to know for yourself.

Regards,
Navin

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is a Seperate Port Apporach ?
ANS: In this approach, seperate port (e.g. 0x2FBF) will be used for sending
     and receiving Capwap Discovery Control Plane packets. As all other
     control packets exchanged between AC and WTP are going to be DTLS
     secured, they will be sent to a different port (e.g. 0x2FC0).

What is a Common Port Apporach ?
ANS: Here, Capwap will use just one port (e.g. 0x2FBF) for sending and
     receiving Discovery as well as all other DTLS secured control plane pkts.


Situation 1: A legitimate WTP just now got powered and once its up, it starts
             sending discovery packet to ACs. And once discovery is complete,
             DTLS session establishment between WTP and AC.
Seperate Port Apporach:
    * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
    * it would do discovery reply.
    * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending
      CliehtHello message to 0x2FC0 port of AC.
    * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that no prior session
      information exists, it would continue with DTLS session establishment
      process.

Common Port Apporach:
    * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
    * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists
      or not. If not, it would do discovery reply.
    * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending
      CliehtHello message to 0x2FBF port of AC.
    * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FBF and finds out that prior WTP session
      information exists (and FSM state is Discovery), it would continue with
      DTLS session establishment process.


Situation 2a: A fully functional (in Capwap Run State) WTP gets rebooted
              accidently, and once it is up, it starts sending non-DTLS type
              Discovery packet again to an AC.
Seperate Port Approach (Proactive implementation):
    * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
    * it would do discovery reply.
    * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending
      CliehtHello message to 0x2FC0 port of AC.
    * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session
      information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will assume that most likely WTP
      got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset  (state=Discovery) WTP
      session information.  Ultimately, AC would continue with DTLS session
      establishment by processing ClientHello message.
Remark: No keepalive type timer expiry happens. So WTP will be up in NO time.

Common Port Apporach (Proactive implementation):
    * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
    * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists
      or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will assume that most likely WTP
      got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset (state=Discovery) WTP
      session information. Ultimately, AC would do discovery reply.
    * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending
      CliehtHello message to 0x2FBF port of AC.
    * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FBF and finds out that prior WTP session
      information exists (with FSM=Discovery), it would continue with DTLS
      session establishment process.
Remark: No keepalive type timer expiry happens. So WTP will be up in NO time.


Situation 2b: A fully functional (in Capwap Run State) WTP gets rebooted
              accidently, and once it is up, it starts sending non-DTLS type
              Discovery packet again to an AC.
Seperate Port Approach (Reactive implementation):
    * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
    * it would do discovery reply.
    * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending
      CliehtHello message to 0x2FC0 port of AC.
    * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session
      information exists (with FSM=Run), AC would simply discard the
      clientHello packet. And would wait for the keepalive timer to expire for
      the WTP session under consideration. Once the timer is expired, WTP
      session information will be deleted, bringing AC in sync with WTP.
      Ultimately AC will start processing clientHello packets to carry on with
      DTLS session establishment.
Remark: WTP UP will be in close to keepalive timer value time.

Common Port Apporach (Reactive implementation):
    * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
    * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists
      or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will simply drop the incoming
      discovery pacekt and wait for the keepalive timer to expire for the WTP
      session under consideration. Once the timer is expired, AC's FSM will be
      in sync with WTP. From this point onwards, AC will start processing
      discovery packets followed by DTLS session establishment.
Remark: WTP UP will be in close to keepalive timer value time


Situation 3: There is one fully functional legitimate WTP providing WLAN
             services and is Capwap controlled by an AC. An illegal WTP
             somehow gets access to the WTP/AC's networks and can snoop
             packets from the wire. In such situation, it can snoop legitimate
             WTP's IP address and start sending discovery request to the AC
             on 0x2FBF. This is a sort of DoS attack situation.
Seperate Port Approach (Proactive implementation):
    * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
    * it would do discovery reply.
    * LETS NOT WORRY ABOUT LEGITIMATE WTP'S REACTION
      TO DISCOVERY REPLY.
    * Illegal WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by
      sending CliehtHello message (and fake IP address) to 0x2FC0 port of AC.
    * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session
      information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will assume that most likely WTP
      got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset  (state=Discovery) WTP
      session information.  Ultimately, AC would continue with DTLS session
      establishment by processing ClientHello message. But most likely the
      illegal WTP may not be having proper certificates etc, so its
      authentication will fail ultimately with AC.
Remark: DoS attack was SUCCESSFUL. A legitimate WTP's session was brought
        down by an illegal WTP.

Common Port Apporach (Proactive implementation):
    * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
    * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists
      or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will assume that most likely WTP
      got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset (state=Discovery) WTP
      session information. Ultimately, AC would do discovery reply.
    * LETS NOT WORRY ABOUT LEGITIMATE WTP'S REACTION
      TO DISCOVERY REPLY.
    * Illegal WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by
      sending CliehtHello message to 0x2FBF port of AC.
    * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FBF and finds out that prior WTP session
      information exists (with FSM=Discovery), it would continue with DTLS
      session establishment process. But most likely the illegal WTP may not
      be having proper certificates etc, so its authentication will fail
      ultimately with AC.
Remark: DoS attack was SUCCESSFUL. A legitimate WTP's session was brought
        down by an illegal WTP.


Situation 4: There is one fully functional legitimate WTP providing WLAN
             services and is Capwap controlled by an AC. An illegal WTP
             somehow gets access to the WTP/AC's networks and can snoop
             packets from the wire. In such situation, it can snoop legitimate
             WTP's IP address and start sending discovery request to the AC on
             0x2FBF. This is a sort of DoS attack situation.
Seperate Port Approach (Reactive implementation):
    * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
    * it would do discovery reply.
    * LETS NOT WORRY ABOUT LEGITIMATE WTP'S REACTION TO DISCOVERY REPLY.
    * Illegal WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by
      sending CliehtHello message (and fake IP address) to 0x2FC0 port of AC.
    * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session
      information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will keep dropping the clientHello
      packet coming from duplicate (illegal) WTP. Assuming Capwap Keepalive
      messages continue to come to AC, legitimate WTP's session would remain
      intact.
Remark: DoS attack was NOT SUCCESSFUL.

Common Port Apporach (Reactive implementation):
    * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
    * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists
      or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will simply drop the incoming
      discovery pacekt coming from duplicate (& illegal) WTP. Assuming Capwap
      Keepalive messages continue to come to AC, legitimate WTP's session
      would remain intact.
Remark: DoS attack was NOT successful.


Conclusion: Common Port approach behaves nearly same as Seperate port
                  approach be it normal functioning or DoS attack situation.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] CAPWAP Timer element issue
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Pat,

Actually, in 4.4.12 of the -03 draft, those names do appear as fielded
names, not timer names.  I am ok with your proposal, as long as the
default value is defined for the Discovery Timer field. 


 -Bob
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) 
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 7:29 AM
To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP Timer element issue

Bob,

The names "Discovery Timer" and "Echo Timer" are not used in the CAPWAP
specification. I will assume you mean the DiscoveryInterval and
EchoInterval. I believe the issue you are raising is that the text is
not descriptive on what to expect if the timer value is set to zero (0).
This is a valid issue that does need to be addressed.

I am OK with your proposal to simply disable the Echo mechanism when the
timer value is set to zero.

For DiscoveryInterval, I would propose we make the value illegal in the
spec, and state that any illegal values MUST use the default value.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) 
> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 1:39 PM
> To: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: [Capwap] CAPWAP Timer element issue
> 
> In 4.4.12 of the -03 draft, the Discovery Timer and Echo 
> Timer fields are defined.  The value of the field determines 
> the number of seconds between the two types of Request 
> packets.  What does a value of zero mean in this field?
> 
> For the Echo Timer, I would propose that a value of zero be 
> defined to mean that no Echo Request packets are sent.  For 
> the Discovery Timer, I would propose that a value of zero be 
> reserved and, if received by a WTP, is interpreted to be the 
> same as if the value of 1 was received.
> 
>  -Bob
> 
> Bob O'Hara
> Cisco Systems - WNBU
> 
> Phone:  +1 408 853 5513
> Mobile: +1 408 218 4025
>  
> _________________________________________________________________
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Thread-Topic: transition to join state
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From: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" <ssmitha@cisco.com>
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Subject: [Capwap] transition to join state
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All,
=20
The spec talks about AC transitioning to Join state on receiving DTLS
Client Hello with a valid cookie. Should this really be the case?=20
The AC should transition to Join state on receiving a Join Request.
=20
Thanks
Smitha
=20

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2976" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D225024915-24102006>All,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D225024915-24102006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D225024915-24102006>The =
spec talks about=20
AC transitioning to Join state on receiving DTLS Client Hello with a =
valid=20
cookie. Should this really be the case? </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D225024915-24102006>The AC =
should=20
transition to Join state on receiving a Join =
Request.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D225024915-24102006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D225024915-24102006>Thanks</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D225024915-24102006>Smitha</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D225024915-24102006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" <ssmitha@cisco.com>,
	"capwap" <capwap@frascone.com>
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I'm not so sure. If that were the case we would need a "join ready" =
state. We clearly need to transition to a new (non-DTLS) state when the =
DTLS channel is open.

PatC

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)
Sent:	Tuesday, October 24, 2006 08:52 AM Pacific Standard Time
To:	capwap
Subject:	[Capwap] transition to join state

All,
=20
The spec talks about AC transitioning to Join state on receiving DTLS
Client Hello with a valid cookie. Should this really be the case?=20
The AC should transition to Join state on receiving a Join Request.
=20
Thanks
Smitha
=20

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I'm not so sure. If that were the case we would need a =
&quot;join ready&quot; state. We clearly need to transition to a new =
(non-DTLS) state when the DTLS channel is open.<BR>
<BR>
PatC<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: &nbsp; Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)<BR>
Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, October 24, 2006 08:52 AM Pacific Standard =
Time<BR>
To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; capwap<BR>
Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [Capwap] transition =
to join state<BR>
<BR>
All,<BR>
<BR>
The spec talks about AC transitioning to Join state on receiving =
DTLS<BR>
Client Hello with a valid cookie. Should this really be the case?<BR>
The AC should transition to Join state on receiving a Join Request.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Smitha<BR>
<BR>
</FONT>
</P>

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-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]
Sent: Mon 10/23/2006 7:28 AM
To: Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc: capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
=20

> True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third =
port
> is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people to
> consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is "hack-ish", but=20
> I believe it to be completely workable.
For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front
of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it be zero =
filled
DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be
that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the DTLS header.
All zeros is a good pattern, though. I think zero filled DTLS header
would impose variable header size problems (in future), because version
field would also become zero.



Hasan

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com">mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com</A>]<BR>
Sent: Mon 10/23/2006 7:28 AM<BR>
To: Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com<BR>
Cc: capwap<BR>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&gt; True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third =
port<BR>
&gt; is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people =
to<BR>
&gt; consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is =
&quot;hack-ish&quot;, but<BR>
&gt; I believe it to be completely workable.<BR>
For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front<BR>
of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it be zero =
filled<BR>
DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be<BR>
that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the DTLS =
header.<BR>
All zeros is a good pattern, though. I think zero filled DTLS header<BR>
would impose variable header size problems (in future), because =
version<BR>
field would also become zero.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hasan</FONT>
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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While it is impossible to disagree, it is worth noting that version =
fields are typically fixed in location (for future compatibility), and =
generally increase monotonically.=20

This does point out that CAPWAP should specify a DTLS version.

PatC

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Hasan Raza [mailto:Hasan@sinett.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, October 24, 2006 09:35 AM Pacific Standard Time
To:	Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc:	capwap
Subject:	Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports




-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]
Sent: Mon 10/23/2006 7:28 AM
To: Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc: capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
=20

> True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third =
port
> is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people to
> consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is "hack-ish", but=20
> I believe it to be completely workable.
For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front
of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it be zero =
filled
DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be
that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the DTLS header.
All zeros is a good pattern, though. I think zero filled DTLS header
would impose variable header size problems (in future), because version
field would also become zero.



Hasan

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>While it is impossible to disagree, it is worth noting =
that version fields are typically fixed in location (for future =
compatibility), and generally increase monotonically.<BR>
<BR>
This does point out that CAPWAP should specify a DTLS version.<BR>
<BR>
PatC<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: &nbsp; Hasan Raza [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:Hasan@sinett.com">mailto:Hasan@sinett.com</A>]<BR>
Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, October 24, 2006 09:35 AM Pacific Standard =
Time<BR>
To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; =
pagarwal@broadcom.com<BR>
Cc:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; capwap<BR>
Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Re: [Capwap] need =
clarification on UDP ports<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com">mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com</A>]<BR>
Sent: Mon 10/23/2006 7:28 AM<BR>
To: Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com<BR>
Cc: capwap<BR>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&gt; True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third =
port<BR>
&gt; is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people =
to<BR>
&gt; consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is =
&quot;hack-ish&quot;, but<BR>
&gt; I believe it to be completely workable.<BR>
For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front<BR>
of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it be zero =
filled<BR>
DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be<BR>
that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the DTLS =
header.<BR>
All zeros is a good pattern, though. I think zero filled DTLS header<BR>
would impose variable header size problems (in future), because =
version<BR>
field would also become zero.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hasan<BR>
</FONT>
</P>

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From: "Hasan Raza" <Hasan@sinett.com>
To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>,
	"Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>, <pagarwal@broadcom.com>
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Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
=20
> While it is impossible to disagree, it is worth noting that version
> fields are typically fixed in location (for future compatibility),
> and generally increase monotonically.
My mistake that I was not clear. I agree that version field is at
fixed location, and increase monotonically. But header size might
be version dependent as well. Now since DTLS header is made zero,
the version information, and in turn header size info., is lost.


Hasan


 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Hasan Raza [mailto:Hasan@sinett.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, October 24, 2006 09:35 AM Pacific Standard Time
To:	Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc:	capwap
Subject:	Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports




-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]
Sent: Mon 10/23/2006 7:28 AM
To: Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc: capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
=20

> True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third =
port
> is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people to
> consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is "hack-ish", but=20
> I believe it to be completely workable.
For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front
of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it be zero =
filled
DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be
that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the DTLS header.
All zeros is a good pattern, though. I think zero filled DTLS header
would impose variable header size problems (in future), because version
field would also become zero.



Hasan


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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
&gt; While it is impossible to disagree, it is worth noting that =
version<BR>
&gt; fields are typically fixed in location (for future =
compatibility),<BR>
&gt; and generally increase monotonically.<BR>
My mistake that I was not clear. I agree that version field is at<BR>
fixed location, and increase monotonically. But header size might<BR>
be version dependent as well. Now since DTLS header is made zero,<BR>
the version information, and in turn header size info., is lost.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hasan<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: &nbsp; Hasan Raza [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:Hasan@sinett.com">mailto:Hasan@sinett.com</A>]<BR>
Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, October 24, 2006 09:35 AM Pacific Standard =
Time<BR>
To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; =
pagarwal@broadcom.com<BR>
Cc:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; capwap<BR>
Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Re: [Capwap] need =
clarification on UDP ports<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com">mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com</A>]<BR>
Sent: Mon 10/23/2006 7:28 AM<BR>
To: Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com<BR>
Cc: capwap<BR>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&gt; True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third =
port<BR>
&gt; is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people =
to<BR>
&gt; consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is =
&quot;hack-ish&quot;, but<BR>
&gt; I believe it to be completely workable.<BR>
For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front<BR>
of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it be zero =
filled<BR>
DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be<BR>
that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the DTLS =
header.<BR>
All zeros is a good pattern, though. I think zero filled DTLS header<BR>
would impose variable header size problems (in future), because =
version<BR>
field would also become zero.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hasan<BR>
<BR>
</FONT>
</P>

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-----Original Message-----
>From: Hasan Raza <Hasan@sinett.com>
>Sent: Oct 24, 2006 1:18 PM
>To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>, "Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>, pagarwal@broadcom.com
>Cc: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
>Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
>
>
>
>
>Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
> 
>> While it is impossible to disagree, it is worth noting that version
>> fields are typically fixed in location (for future compatibility),
>> and generally increase monotonically.
>My mistake that I was not clear. I agree that version field is at
>fixed location, and increase monotonically. But header size might
>be version dependent as well. Now since DTLS header is made zero,
>the version information, and in turn header size info., is lost.

Right. And the previous email suggested 

> For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front
> of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it 
> be zero filled
> DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be
> that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the 
> DTLS header.

This sounds an awful lot like the type header suggestion - a fixed number of bytes after the UDP header that indicate *precisely* what follows. No hacking, no ambiguity - seems like a no-brainer.

Scott


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I think setting the DTLS header to zero would make the version ID in
dtls header also zero, making the header length deterministic.
=20
Regards
Rohit

________________________________

From: Hasan Raza [mailto:Hasan@sinett.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:19 AM
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc: capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports






Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:

> While it is impossible to disagree, it is worth noting that version
> fields are typically fixed in location (for future compatibility),
> and generally increase monotonically.
My mistake that I was not clear. I agree that version field is at
fixed location, and increase monotonically. But header size might
be version dependent as well. Now since DTLS header is made zero,
the version information, and in turn header size info., is lost.


Hasan


 -----Original Message-----
From:   Hasan Raza [mailto:Hasan@sinett.com]
Sent:   Tuesday, October 24, 2006 09:35 AM Pacific Standard Time
To:     Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc:     capwap
Subject:        Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports




-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]
Sent: Mon 10/23/2006 7:28 AM
To: Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc: capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports


> True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third
port
> is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people to
> consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is "hack-ish", but
> I believe it to be completely workable.
For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front
of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it be zero
filled
DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be
that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the DTLS header.
All zeros is a good pattern, though. I think zero filled DTLS header
would impose variable header size problems (in future), because version
field would also become zero.



Hasan




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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
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<BODY>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D379432617-24102006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I think setting the DTLS header to zero would =
make the=20
version ID in dtls header also zero, making the header length=20
deterministic.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D379432617-24102006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D379432617-24102006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Regards</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D379432617-24102006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Rohit</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Hasan Raza =
[mailto:Hasan@sinett.com]=20
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:19 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Pat =
Calhoun=20
(pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP=20
ports<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format --><BR><BR><BR>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; While it is =
impossible=20
to disagree, it is worth noting that version<BR>&gt; fields are =
typically fixed=20
in location (for future compatibility),<BR>&gt; and generally increase=20
monotonically.<BR>My mistake that I was not clear. I agree that version =
field is=20
at<BR>fixed location, and increase monotonically. But header size =
might<BR>be=20
version dependent as well. Now since DTLS header is made zero,<BR>the =
version=20
information, and in turn header size info., is=20
lost.<BR><BR><BR>Hasan<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp;-----Original =
Message-----<BR>From:=20
&nbsp; Hasan Raza [<A=20
href=3D"mailto:Hasan@sinett.com">mailto:Hasan@sinett.com</A>]<BR>Sent:&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
Tuesday, October 24, 2006 09:35 AM Pacific Standard=20
Time<BR>To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. =
Kelly;=20
pagarwal@broadcom.com<BR>Cc:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
capwap<BR>Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Re: =
[Capwap] need=20
clarification on UDP ports<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Original=20
Message-----<BR>From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [<A=20
href=3D"mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com">mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com</A>]<BR>Sent=
: Mon=20
10/23/2006 7:28 AM<BR>To: Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com<BR>Cc:=20
capwap<BR>Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP =
ports<BR><BR><BR>&gt;=20
True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third =
port<BR>&gt;=20
is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people =
to<BR>&gt;=20
consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is "hack-ish", but<BR>&gt; =
I=20
believe it to be completely workable.<BR>For that matter any unique =
pattern of=20
fixed amount of bytes in front<BR>of udp header can work for discovery =
packets.=20
Why should it be zero filled<BR>DTLS header only? The only restriction =
on the=20
pattern should be<BR>that it is uniquely different from first fixed =
bytes of the=20
DTLS header.<BR>All zeros is a good pattern, though. I think zero filled =
DTLS=20
header<BR>would impose variable header size problems (in future), =
because=20
version<BR>field would also become=20
zero.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hasan<BR><BR></FONT></P></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "Hasan Raza" <Hasan@sinett.com>,
	"Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>, <pagarwal@broadcom.com>
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Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a packet =
with 'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which is of lengh 'y'.

PatC

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Hasan Raza [mailto:Hasan@sinett.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:18 AM Pacific Standard Time
To:	Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc:	capwap
Subject:	RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports




Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
=20
> While it is impossible to disagree, it is worth noting that version
> fields are typically fixed in location (for future compatibility),
> and generally increase monotonically.
My mistake that I was not clear. I agree that version field is at
fixed location, and increase monotonically. But header size might
be version dependent as well. Now since DTLS header is made zero,
the version information, and in turn header size info., is lost.


Hasan


 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Hasan Raza [mailto:Hasan@sinett.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, October 24, 2006 09:35 AM Pacific Standard Time
To:	Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc:	capwap
Subject:	Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports




-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]
Sent: Mon 10/23/2006 7:28 AM
To: Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc: capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
=20

> True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third =
port
> is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people to
> consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is "hack-ish", but=20
> I believe it to be completely workable.
For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front
of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it be zero =
filled
DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be
that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the DTLS header.
All zeros is a good pattern, though. I think zero filled DTLS header
would impose variable header size problems (in future), because version
field would also become zero.



Hasan


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation =
receiving a packet with 'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which is =
of lengh 'y'.<BR>
<BR>
PatC<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: &nbsp; Hasan Raza [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:Hasan@sinett.com">mailto:Hasan@sinett.com</A>]<BR>
Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:18 AM Pacific Standard =
Time<BR>
To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; =
pagarwal@broadcom.com<BR>
Cc:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; capwap<BR>
Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; RE: [Capwap] need =
clarification on UDP ports<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
&gt; While it is impossible to disagree, it is worth noting that =
version<BR>
&gt; fields are typically fixed in location (for future =
compatibility),<BR>
&gt; and generally increase monotonically.<BR>
My mistake that I was not clear. I agree that version field is at<BR>
fixed location, and increase monotonically. But header size might<BR>
be version dependent as well. Now since DTLS header is made zero,<BR>
the version information, and in turn header size info., is lost.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hasan<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: &nbsp; Hasan Raza [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:Hasan@sinett.com">mailto:Hasan@sinett.com</A>]<BR>
Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, October 24, 2006 09:35 AM Pacific Standard =
Time<BR>
To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; =
pagarwal@broadcom.com<BR>
Cc:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; capwap<BR>
Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Re: [Capwap] need =
clarification on UDP ports<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com">mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com</A>]<BR>
Sent: Mon 10/23/2006 7:28 AM<BR>
To: Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com<BR>
Cc: capwap<BR>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&gt; True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third =
port<BR>
&gt; is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people =
to<BR>
&gt; consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is =
&quot;hack-ish&quot;, but<BR>
&gt; I believe it to be completely workable.<BR>
For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front<BR>
of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it be zero =
filled<BR>
DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be<BR>
that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the DTLS =
header.<BR>
All zeros is a good pattern, though. I think zero filled DTLS header<BR>
would impose variable header size problems (in future), because =
version<BR>
field would also become zero.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hasan<BR>
<BR>
</FONT>
</P>

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From: "Scott G. Kelly" <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>
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	Hasan Raza <Hasan@sinett.com>, pagarwal@broadcom.com
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"Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" wrote:

>Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a packet with
> 'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which is of lengh 'y'.

...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right? I'm having a really hard time understanding why you're pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. We are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do it right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we don't adopt this hack?

Scott
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] transition to join state
Thread-Index: Acb3hExvfrWUJ93uSxCyGHA29lgS4wAAI3BZABQxsSA=
From: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" <ssmitha@cisco.com>
To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>,
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Pat,

The spec talks about transitioning to join state from idle - (Idle to
Join (aa)). This would make it necessary for CAPWAP to know of the
various DTLS packets are being received during handshake. Why is it
necessary to have a "join ready" state?

Thanks
Smitha

-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) 
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:26 PM
To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); 'capwap'
Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state

I'm not so sure. If that were the case we would need a "join ready"
state. We clearly need to transition to a new (non-DTLS) state when the
DTLS channel is open.

PatC

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)
Sent:	Tuesday, October 24, 2006 08:52 AM Pacific Standard Time
To:	capwap
Subject:	[Capwap] transition to join state

All,
 
The spec talks about AC transitioning to Join state on receiving DTLS
Client Hello with a valid cookie. Should this really be the case? 
The AC should transition to Join state on receiving a Join Request.
 
Thanks
Smitha
 
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
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No. There is a distinct difference as it is sent on the control port.=20

PatC

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:27 AM Pacific Standard Time
To:	Hasan Raza; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc:	capwap
Subject:	Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports

-----Original Message-----
>From: Hasan Raza <Hasan@sinett.com>
>Sent: Oct 24, 2006 1:18 PM
>To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>, "Scott G. Kelly" =
<scott@hyperthought.com>, pagarwal@broadcom.com
>Cc: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
>Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
>
>
>
>
>Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
>=20
>> While it is impossible to disagree, it is worth noting that version
>> fields are typically fixed in location (for future compatibility),
>> and generally increase monotonically.
>My mistake that I was not clear. I agree that version field is at
>fixed location, and increase monotonically. But header size might
>be version dependent as well. Now since DTLS header is made zero,
>the version information, and in turn header size info., is lost.

Right. And the previous email suggested=20

> For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front
> of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it=20
> be zero filled
> DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be
> that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the=20
> DTLS header.

This sounds an awful lot like the type header suggestion - a fixed =
number of bytes after the UDP header that indicate *precisely* what =
follows. No hacking, no ambiguity - seems like a no-brainer.

Scott


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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>No. There is a distinct difference as it is sent on =
the control port.<BR>
<BR>
PatC<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: &nbsp; Scott G. Kelly [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com">mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com</A>]<B=
R>
Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:27 AM Pacific Standard =
Time<BR>
To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hasan Raza; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); =
pagarwal@broadcom.com<BR>
Cc:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; capwap<BR>
Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Re: [Capwap] need =
clarification on UDP ports<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
&gt;From: Hasan Raza &lt;Hasan@sinett.com&gt;<BR>
&gt;Sent: Oct 24, 2006 1:18 PM<BR>
&gt;To: &quot;Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)&quot; &lt;pcalhoun@cisco.com&gt;, =
&quot;Scott G. Kelly&quot; &lt;scott@hyperthought.com&gt;, =
pagarwal@broadcom.com<BR>
&gt;Cc: capwap &lt;capwap@frascone.com&gt;<BR>
&gt;Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; While it is impossible to disagree, it is worth noting that =
version<BR>
&gt;&gt; fields are typically fixed in location (for future =
compatibility),<BR>
&gt;&gt; and generally increase monotonically.<BR>
&gt;My mistake that I was not clear. I agree that version field is =
at<BR>
&gt;fixed location, and increase monotonically. But header size =
might<BR>
&gt;be version dependent as well. Now since DTLS header is made =
zero,<BR>
&gt;the version information, and in turn header size info., is lost.<BR>
<BR>
Right. And the previous email suggested<BR>
<BR>
&gt; For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in =
front<BR>
&gt; of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it<BR>
&gt; be zero filled<BR>
&gt; DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be<BR>
&gt; that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the<BR>
&gt; DTLS header.<BR>
<BR>
This sounds an awful lot like the type header suggestion - a fixed =
number of bytes after the UDP header that indicate *precisely* what =
follows. No hacking, no ambiguity - seems like a no-brainer.<BR>
<BR>
Scott<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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Newscouric amp Cothe Early Show Hours on Tape the Coverage Lara Logan in =
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the Coverage Lara Logan.
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Show Hours on a Tape the Coverage in Lara Logan.
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From Reyna@anglican-nig.org Wed Oct 25 05:35:35 2006
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From:	Dionne <Dionne@anglicare.asn.au>
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Subject: I now a now
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Penny wise, pound foolish. A creaking door hangs longest. and A creaking ga=
te hangs long. Simple things amuse simple minds The start of a journey shou=
ld never be mistaken for success. Better late than never.
Bloom where you are planted. Interpretation: A flawed article will require =
a lot of effort to work with You can't have it both ways.
Birds of a feather flock together. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Al=
l things come to he who waits. It takes two to make a quarrel.
More haste, less speed. Talk the hind legs off a donkey. One mans meat, is =
another mans poison. Thats the straw that broke the camels back. Better the=
 devil you know than the devil you don't. Brain is better than brawn.
He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword. Water, water everywhere..=
but not a drop to drink There's no accounting for taste. Where's there's m=
uck, there's brass
There is only eight years been success and failure in politics. -Jim Brown,=
 Louisiana statesman We are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams=
 A creaking door hangs longest. and A creaking gate hangs long. Life's a b=
itch and then you marry one If you're in a hole, stop digging.


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<DIV><DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>NEW YORK (Reuters) -- W=
all Street bonuses will rise 15 percent this year, with larger increases fo=
r investment bankers and equities traders as merger activity surges and sto=
cks rise, according to a study released Monday.<BR>NASHVILLE, Tennessee (Co=
urt TV) -- The father of a Nashville attorney on trial for killing his wife=
 claims he reburied his murdered daughter-in-law and disposed of evidence r=
elating to her killing.<BR>Atlantis' astronauts strapped into the space shu=
ttle Thursday for a practice launch countdown more than two weeks before th=
ey are scheduled to blast off on a mission to resume construction of the in=
ternational space station.</FONT></DIV><IMG alt=3D"#15384E" hspace=3D0 src=
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der=3D0></DIV><DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>AFGHANISTAN: 1=
4 Britons dead in Afghan aircraft crash LONDON Atlantis' astronauts strappe=
d into the space shuttle Thursday for a practice launch countdown more than=
 two weeks before they are scheduled to blast off on a mission to resume co=
nstruction of the international space station. Lockheed beats Boeing for mo=
on launcher NEW YORK (CM) -- Soft drink and snack company PepsiCo Inc. anno=
unced Monday that chief financial officer Indra Nooyi will take over from C=
hairman and CEO Steve Reinemund this October. She becomes the first woman t=
o hold the post and enters the list of lea You may be paid more (or less) t=
han you think</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>NEW YORK (AP) -- Talk-show h=
osts Jerry Springer and conservative Tucker Carlson of MSNBC will be among =
the celebrities competing on the third season of ABC television's "Dancing =
With the Stars. WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush declared Lebanon a front=
 in the "global war on terrorism" Monday, equating the Israeli battle again=
st Lebanon's Hezbollah guerrillas to the U.S.-led wars in Afghanistan and I=
raq. NEW YORK (AP) -- Talk-show hosts Jerry Springer and conservative Tucke=
r Carlson of MSNBC will be among the celebrities competing on the third sea=
son of ABC television's "Dancing With the Stars. l storms or monster hurric=
anes like Katrina and Andrew. WASHINGTON (AP) -- The thwarted terrorist air=
line plot in Britain is sparking a bitter new round of finger-pointing in C=
onnecticut's bruising Senate race. At least five deaths blamed on Ernesto</=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>At least five deaths blamed =
on Ernesto WASHINGTON (AP) -- Scientists have discovered possible bird flu =
in two wild swans on the shore of Lake Erie -- but it does not appear to be=
 the much-feared Asian strain that has ravaged poultry and killed at least =
138 people elsewhere in the world. NEW YORK (AP) -- Talk-show hosts Jerry S=
pringer and conservative Tucker Carlson of MSNBC will be among the celebrit=
ies competing on the third season of ABC television's "Dancing With the Sta=
rs. LONDON, ENGLAND: 16 held in British terror swoops KANDAHAR CANBERRA, Au=
stralia (Reuters) -- Australian scientists have begun looking at smell sens=
ors in worms and insects to help them build an electronic "cybernose" they =
hope will one day be capable of measuring aromas and flavors in wine. NEW Y=
ORK (AP) -- Talk-show hosts Jerry Springer and conservative Tucker Carlson =
of MSNBC will be among the celebrities competing on the third season of ABC=
 television's "Dancing With the Stars. NASHVILLE, Tennessee (Court TV) -- T=
he father of a Nashville attorney on trial for killing his wife claims he r=
eburied his murdered daughter-in-law and disposed of evidence relating to h=
er killing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>RICHMOND, Virginia (AP) -- A=
 man accused of killing a musician and his family and suspected in a series=
 of other crimes pleaded not guilty Monday as jury selection got under way =
in his capital murder trial. NEW YORK (AP) -- Talk-show hosts Jerry Springe=
r and conservative Tucker Carlson of MSNBC will be among the celebrities co=
mpeting on the third season of ABC television's "Dancing With the Stars. NE=
W YORK (CM) -- Soft drink and snack company PepsiCo Inc. announced Monday t=
hat chief financial officer Indra Nooyi will take over from Chairman and CE=
O Steve Reinemund this October. She becomes the first woman to hold the pos=
t and enters the list of lea WASHINGTON (AP) -- The thwarted terrorist airl=
ine plot in Britain is sparking a bitter new round of finger-pointing in Co=
nnecticut's bruising Senate race. NASHVILLE, Tennessee (Court TV) -- The fa=
ther of a Nashville attorney on trial for killing his wife claims he reburi=
ed his murdered daughter-in-law and disposed of evidence relating to her ki=
lling. Hedge fund may boost McDonald's stake</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>NEW YORK (AP) -- Talk-show h=
osts Jerry Springer and conservative Tucker Carlson of MSNBC will be among =
the celebrities competing on the third season of ABC television's "Dancing =
With the Stars. KANDAHAR, AFGHANISTAN: 14 dead in Afghanistan crash Money M=
agazine: Best jobs in America EA scores touchdown with Madden CHOWCHILLA, C=
alifornia (AP) -- Sara Jane Olson, the former Symbionese Liberation Army fu=
gitive who became a Minnesota housewife and is now serving prison time for =
trying to bomb police cars in the 1970s, says she tries to hide her radical=
 past from her fe l storms or monster hurricanes like Katrina and Andrew.</=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>COLOMBO, SRI LANKA: '100 Tig=
ers dead' in sea battle llow inmates. More than 200 homes evacuated in Rich=
mond, Virginia Ernesto blamed for knocking out power to more than 400,000 W=
ASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush declared Lebanon a front in the "global w=
ar on terrorism" Monday, equating the Israeli battle against Lebanon's Hezb=
ollah guerrillas to the U.S.-led wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Money Magazi=
ne: Best jobs in America</FONT></DIV>
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------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C6F851.66230B90--




From erosely@team-louthesz.com Wed Oct 25 10:26:56 2006
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From: "Adobe Software" <erosely@team-louthesz.com>
To: <capwap-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: New software uploaded by Brenda on Oct 25 18:10:00 MSK 2006
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:26:33 +0300
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Brenda has uploaded some new software for you!


View your available uploaded software from Brenda @ www. allnewoem .net


firmware, it is even possible that for different firmware versions
4.2.6.  I've got this program I'd like to make into a port...
lo0   65535 <Link>			     79     0	    79	   0	 0
Zynx ZX342 or DEC DE435, will generally work as well.  For 100Mbit
______________________________________________________________________
DTE
______________________________________________________________________
PostScript, send a PostScript program in that language instead of
17.2.7.  Thanks!
searching the space of possible passwords.  Unfortunately, the only
SCSI devices are allowed (but not required) to supply terminator
Do send applicable changes/patches to the original author/maintainer
10:#0  boot (arghowto=256) (../../i386/i386/machdep.c line 767)
2.0-RELEASE you can use the following:
WD1007 controller. To be precise, it was a WD1007-WA2. Other
# MINI -- A kernel to get FreeBSD on onto a disk.
<rsnowtxdirect> who proved to be a mine of useful information
printer's entry in /etc/printcap).
(including versions 2.x).  FreeBSD version 1.0 included two different
6.4.4.4.  Clearing the IPFW packet counters
correctly edited your /etc/sysconfig then this will happen
______________________________________________________________________
domain ppp.foo  # put your domain name here
	device scd0 at isa? port 0x230 bio
preserving the original partition and allowing you to install onto the
the ls manual page on the default printer:
ip <X.X.X.X>	   - print/set client's IP address
the data to and from the drive. This cable is radially connected, so
% man ls
#
terms of the software and make sure that the FreeBSD project will not
UART considers the entire word to be garbled and will report a Framing
subscription request for a local mailing list (note: this is more
ISBN 1-55558-051-3
(Approved)
/etc/printcap with the lp capability; see ``Identifying the Printer
another shell so that you can create them before you give them to the
pause 1
ethernet cards, a table of supported cards (and their required
	to appear.
subdirectory called work/${DISTNAME}, e.g.
	Cache coherency problems, especially if there are ISA bus
trap cleanup 1 2 15
Reported by: Jonathan M. Bresler jmbFreeBSD
In the default summary that pac produces, you see the number of pages
usually some instructions (which are unfortunately not always as
/var/log is located on.
make three megabytes (which is 6144 disk blocks) the amount of free
	    with internal 16550 or an
For example, on a sample FreeBSD 1.1.5.1 system, /etc/rc.serial reads:
Two principals need to be added to the database for each system that
operating system run smoothly.  For this, there is no substitute for a
PORTSDIR=/u/people/guests/wurzburger/ports make install
UK In case of problems, please contact the hostmaster for this
4. The name of the author may not be used to endorse or promote products
if [ "$first_two_chars" = "%!" ]; then
specify the hostname of the printer as the first argument and the port
job.	Here is the DVI conversion filter from earlier in this document,
	pty is a ``pseudo-terminal'' or simulated login port.  It is
that has to be printed for every job, their ephemeral usefulness
Data transfer rate is 160kB/s.
LPD will not refuse a file that is larger than the limit you place on
Enter Kerberos master key:
For example, lptest 80 60 will produce 60 lines of 80 characters each.
variables, etc.  However, it cannot not access kernel source files,
standardization has become more strict and is better adhered to by the
	type mount /tmp:
Soeren Schmidt
``reconfiguring the kernel'' for more details on how to recompile your
unit number for a wired down device is reserved for that device, even
/etc/sysconfig file.
4. If appropriate, add ``dialup'' entries to ``/etc/ttys'' by
	Single Transfer Mode should be used instead.
kernel.
sio13 at 0x160-0x167 flags 0x1005 on isa
where N is the number of the parallel port, starting from zero.  If
-s Make an accounting summary file and truncate the accounting
Contact Ancot for availability information at: Phone: (415)
		      Set to "1" if the -CTS line has changed
3	  set speed 9600
And we will add this line to the /etc/printcap for the printer teak to
When the NS16550 was developed, the National Semiconductor obtained
`keyinfo' program examines the /etc/skeykeys file and prints out the
15.
world, but not about how the outside world finds us.
	masters behind the ISA to PCI bridge chip.  Hardware flaw, only
there is room for the jobs of other users.
file to your hard drive, and be sure to tell your browser to save
get the individual files you need, but mostly they are stored in
	proper escape code, modify the text filter to send the code
The obvious drawback to a header page is that it is yet one more sheet
shared libraries, and if so, whether you have them installed in the
LaserJet 2000 compatible codes.
just does not work, you can use the scsi(8) command to dynamically
can distinguish between a Framing Error and a Break, but if the UART
o  If you can compile a kernel, make one with the SCSIDEBUG option,
/etc/sliphome/slip.hosts to find a matching line for the special user,
56: AMOS BOWL LUG FAT CAIN INCH
/usr/share/examples/etc/bsd-style-copyright.
for the printer teak):
kernel that can mount your all of your disks and access your tape
Kerberos Initialization for "jane"
10.3.3.1.8.  8250/16450/16550 Registers
I can recommend the SMC Ultra 16 controller for any ISA application
command which one you want by specifying the section:
LIB_DEPENDS=  Xpm\\.4\\.:${PORTSDIR}/graphics/xpm
	 ;;
	       :vm=rfc1048:
say, /cdrom. Then do
the transmission is transmitted for exactly the same amount of time as
	Delete an entry from the firewall/accounting rule list
% cd /usr/local
v3.3beta021.src	   jpeg-5a	  what the heck was that anyway? ;)
Before removing the CD again, also note that it is necessary to first
place of 10.0.0.1.
On the /usr file system in the above example this user is currently 15
C -- Start an X-server
2400bps, the CD signal to detect when a call has been answered or the
The dependency is checked from within the fetch target.
Sometimes we have to go places where no trusted machines or
messages.  If all your devices are listed and functional, skip on to
The second prerequisite depends on the modem(s) you use.  If you do
1. The BSD copyright.  This copyright is most preferred due to its





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Hi Navin,


[I thought to reply to this mail as per my understandings. Others may
correct me if I am wrong somewhere]


It seems that the common port approach you are suggesting is based on
the wtp session presence/absence logic. As WG folks already discussed on
a separate thread recently, the unauthenticated/plain packets should not
result in any state change at the AC. Otherwise, we would open up
avenues for attacks. Moreover, I believe that the logics you presented
here have basic flaws. And it does not give any solution to distinguish
discovery and DTLS packets, either.


On Tue, 2006-10-24 at 03:19 +0530, Navin (NKA) wrote:
> 
> Situation 1: A legitimate WTP just now got powered and once its up, it starts
>              sending discovery packet to ACs. And once discovery is complete,
>              DTLS session establishment between WTP and AC.
> Common Port Apporach:
>     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
>     * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists
>       or not. If not, it would do discovery reply.
>     * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending
>       CliehtHello message to 0x2FBF port of AC.
>     * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FBF and finds out that prior WTP session
>       information exists (and FSM state is Discovery), it would continue with
>       DTLS session establishment process.
Did you miss something here? Yes, I believe so. AC in idle (not
discovery) state can receive discovery as well as DTLS client hello
packets. The AC state is same (idle), and the wtp session does not
exist, then how would AC know that the received packet is discovery or
DTLS client hello? You definitely need some extra information to
differentiate among the two kind of packets.


> 
> Situation 2a: A fully functional (in Capwap Run State) WTP gets rebooted
>               accidently, and once it is up, it starts sending non-DTLS type
>               Discovery packet again to an AC.
> Seperate Port Approach (Proactive implementation):
>     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
>     * it would do discovery reply.
>     * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending
>       CliehtHello message to 0x2FC0 port of AC.
>     * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session
>       information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will assume that most likely WTP
>       got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset  (state=Discovery) WTP
>       session information.  Ultimately, AC would continue with DTLS session
>       establishment by processing ClientHello message.
> Remark: No keepalive type timer expiry happens. So WTP will be up in NO time.
Just by receiving ClientHello packet, AC should not tear down the
existing session. To tear down the existing session, DTLS handshake
should be successful.


> Common Port Apporach (Proactive implementation):
>     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
>     * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists
>       or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will assume that most likely WTP
>       got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset (state=Discovery) WTP
>       session information. Ultimately, AC would do discovery reply.
>     * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending
>       CliehtHello message to 0x2FBF port of AC.
>     * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FBF and finds out that prior WTP session
>       information exists (with FSM=Discovery), it would continue with DTLS
>       session establishment process.
> Remark: No keepalive type timer expiry happens. So WTP will be up in NO time.
It is a doom, if we do so. Anybody could send plain/unauthenticated discovery
packet and tear down the existing WTP sessions at AC.

> 
> Situation 2b: A fully functional (in Capwap Run State) WTP gets rebooted
>               accidently, and once it is up, it starts sending non-DTLS type
>               Discovery packet again to an AC.
> Seperate Port Approach (Reactive implementation):
>     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
>     * it would do discovery reply.
>     * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending
>       CliehtHello message to 0x2FC0 port of AC.
>     * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session
>       information exists (with FSM=Run), AC would simply discard the
>       clientHello packet. And would wait for the keepalive timer to expire for
>       the WTP session under consideration. Once the timer is expired, WTP
>       session information will be deleted, bringing AC in sync with WTP.
>       Ultimately AC will start processing clientHello packets to carry on with
>       DTLS session establishment.
> Remark: WTP UP will be in close to keepalive timer value time.
No. There is no reason for AC to discard clientHello packets.

> Common Port Apporach (Reactive implementation):
>     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
>     * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists
>       or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will simply drop the incoming
>       discovery pacekt and wait for the keepalive timer to expire for the WTP
>       session under consideration. Once the timer is expired, AC's FSM will be
>       in sync with WTP. From this point onwards, AC will start processing
>       discovery packets followed by DTLS session establishment.
> Remark: WTP UP will be in close to keepalive timer value time
> 
As Pat suggested, discarding discovery requests would lead to delay in
re-joining of WTP.

> 
> Situation 3: There is one fully functional legitimate WTP providing WLAN
>              services and is Capwap controlled by an AC. An illegal WTP
>              somehow gets access to the WTP/AC's networks and can snoop
>              packets from the wire. In such situation, it can snoop legitimate
>              WTP's IP address and start sending discovery request to the AC
>              on 0x2FBF. This is a sort of DoS attack situation.
> Seperate Port Approach (Proactive implementation):
>     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
>     * it would do discovery reply.
>     * LETS NOT WORRY ABOUT LEGITIMATE WTP'S REACTION
>       TO DISCOVERY REPLY.
>     * Illegal WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by
>       sending CliehtHello message (and fake IP address) to 0x2FC0 port of AC.
>     * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session
>       information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will assume that most likely WTP
>       got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset  (state=Discovery) WTP
>       session information.  Ultimately, AC would continue with DTLS session
>       establishment by processing ClientHello message. But most likely the
>       illegal WTP may not be having proper certificates etc, so its
>       authentication will fail ultimately with AC.
> Remark: DoS attack was SUCCESSFUL. A legitimate WTP's session was brought
>         down by an illegal WTP.
I believe if somebody implements AC like this, then it will be his fault
to open such silly avenues for attacks. Existing session should be
brought down only once DTLS authentication and a new connection
establishment was successful. Otherwise, anyone can send DTLS
clientHello packet to delete wtp sessions at AC.



> 
> Situation 4: There is one fully functional legitimate WTP providing WLAN
>              services and is Capwap controlled by an AC. An illegal WTP
>              somehow gets access to the WTP/AC's networks and can snoop
>              packets from the wire. In such situation, it can snoop legitimate
>              WTP's IP address and start sending discovery request to the AC on
>              0x2FBF. This is a sort of DoS attack situation.
> Seperate Port Approach (Reactive implementation):
>     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
>     * it would do discovery reply.
>     * LETS NOT WORRY ABOUT LEGITIMATE WTP'S REACTION TO DISCOVERY REPLY.
>     * Illegal WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by
>       sending CliehtHello message (and fake IP address) to 0x2FC0 port of AC.
>     * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session
>       information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will keep dropping the clientHello
>       packet coming from duplicate (illegal) WTP. Assuming Capwap Keepalive
>       messages continue to come to AC, legitimate WTP's session would remain
>       intact.
> Remark: DoS attack was NOT SUCCESSFUL.
DTLS session can not be established with wrong certificate/credentials.
Illegal WTP won't be able to establish a connection. Draft clearly says
that the new session at AC is established only after WTP joins the AC.

> Common Port Apporach (Reactive implementation):
>     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
>     * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists
>       or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will simply drop the incoming
>       discovery pacekt coming from duplicate (& illegal) WTP. Assuming Capwap
>       Keepalive messages continue to come to AC, legitimate WTP's session
>       would remain intact.
> Remark: DoS attack was NOT successful.
> 
> 
> Conclusion: Common Port approach behaves nearly same as Seperate port
>                   approach be it normal functioning or DoS attack situation.
There does not seem to be any such DoS attack situation with the two
port approach as you presented in this mail. Moreover, the
implementation of common port scheme, the way you suggested will
definitely backfire.



Hasan
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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Not pushing for the hack. I've stated I do not object to a third UDP
port, but provided an alternative should IANA refuse to give it to us.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM
> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com
> Cc: capwap
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
> 
> "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" wrote:
> 
> >Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a 
> >packet with  'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which 
> is of lengh 'y'.
> 
> ...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right? 
> I'm having a really hard time understanding why you're 
> pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. We 
> are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do it 
> right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we don't 
> adopt this hack?
> 
> Scott
> 
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Hi all,

Just commenting as an individual contributor...

I prefer the intermediate header approach to the third port approach,  
because I think it is a cleaner representation of what is actually  
happening.

Different ports are used to reach different end points (different  
systems or different processes running on the same system).  In  
CAPWAP, we have one port to reach the data end-point and another to  
reach the control end-point, because we think there are cases when  
the data and control end-points may be different processes or run on  
different systems.  That makes sense to me.

However, when we are talking about DTLS-encrypted and unencrypted  
control packets, we aren't really talking about two different end- 
points.  We are talking about a single control application that needs  
to decide whether to treat each packet it received as unencrypted or  
as DTLS-encrypted, in which case it needs to be handed to the DTLS  
engine for decryption.  If you think about it that way, I think it  
would be better for the control application to receive a packet that  
starts with a short header that indicates whether this packet is DTLS- 
encrypted or unencrypted.  If the packet is unencrypted, the control  
application processes it directly (or ignores the packet if it isn't  
a discovery packet), and if it is DTLS-encrypted, the control  
application strips off the header and send the packet to the DTLS  
engine for decryption.  This type of header might also allow for  
later expansion if the security world evolves and a better security  
mechanism for CAPWAP's purposes emerges.

So, I would prefer that we add a short header after the UDP header (a  
CAPWAP control header?) that indicates the type of the encapsulated  
packet (DTLS-encrypted or unencrypted).  I think 4 bytes would be  
long enough for this header, and that would maintain 32-bit  
alignment.  IMO, it should contain 2 fields -- a one byte version  
number (0x01) and a three-byte type field.  At this point, only two  
types would be defined.

I do not have a major technical objection to the third port option, I  
just think it is less clean from an architectural standpoint.

I would rather strenuously object to the proposed approaches that  
involve zeroing out the DTLS header or running a packet through DTLS  
and then treating it as unencrypted if that fails, etc.

Margaret


On Oct 25, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:

> Not pushing for the hack. I've stated I do not object to a third UDP
> port, but provided an alternative should IANA refuse to give it to us.
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM
>> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com
>> Cc: capwap
>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
>>
>> "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" wrote:
>>
>>> Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a
>>> packet with  'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which
>> is of lengh 'y'.
>>
>> ...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right?
>> I'm having a really hard time understanding why you're
>> pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. We
>> are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do it
>> right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we don't
>> adopt this hack?
>>
>> Scott
>>
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After sending this email, I realized that I had not put down my
thoughts correctly.
Let me re-send this email again. I will surely be able to answer your
questions in
a newer email.

Regards,
Navin


On 10/25/06, Hasan Raza <hasan@sinett.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Navin,
>
>
> [I thought to reply to this mail as per my understandings. Others may
> correct me if I am wrong somewhere]
>
>
> It seems that the common port approach you are suggesting is based on
> the wtp session presence/absence logic. As WG folks already discussed on
> a separate thread recently, the unauthenticated/plain packets should not
> result in any state change at the AC. Otherwise, we would open up
> avenues for attacks. Moreover, I believe that the logics you presented
> here have basic flaws. And it does not give any solution to distinguish
> discovery and DTLS packets, either.
>
>
> On Tue, 2006-10-24 at 03:19 +0530, Navin (NKA) wrote:
> >
> > Situation 1: A legitimate WTP just now got powered and once its up, it starts
> >              sending discovery packet to ACs. And once discovery is complete,
> >              DTLS session establishment between WTP and AC.
> > Common Port Apporach:
> >     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
> >     * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists
> >       or not. If not, it would do discovery reply.
> >     * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending
> >       CliehtHello message to 0x2FBF port of AC.
> >     * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FBF and finds out that prior WTP session
> >       information exists (and FSM state is Discovery), it would continue with
> >       DTLS session establishment process.
> Did you miss something here? Yes, I believe so. AC in idle (not
> discovery) state can receive discovery as well as DTLS client hello
> packets. The AC state is same (idle), and the wtp session does not
> exist, then how would AC know that the received packet is discovery or
> DTLS client hello? You definitely need some extra information to
> differentiate among the two kind of packets.
>
>
> >
> > Situation 2a: A fully functional (in Capwap Run State) WTP gets rebooted
> >               accidently, and once it is up, it starts sending non-DTLS type
> >               Discovery packet again to an AC.
> > Seperate Port Approach (Proactive implementation):
> >     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
> >     * it would do discovery reply.
> >     * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending
> >       CliehtHello message to 0x2FC0 port of AC.
> >     * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session
> >       information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will assume that most likely WTP
> >       got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset  (state=Discovery) WTP
> >       session information.  Ultimately, AC would continue with DTLS session
> >       establishment by processing ClientHello message.
> > Remark: No keepalive type timer expiry happens. So WTP will be up in NO time.
> Just by receiving ClientHello packet, AC should not tear down the
> existing session. To tear down the existing session, DTLS handshake
> should be successful.
>
>
> > Common Port Apporach (Proactive implementation):
> >     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
> >     * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists
> >       or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will assume that most likely WTP
> >       got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset (state=Discovery) WTP
> >       session information. Ultimately, AC would do discovery reply.
> >     * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending
> >       CliehtHello message to 0x2FBF port of AC.
> >     * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FBF and finds out that prior WTP session
> >       information exists (with FSM=Discovery), it would continue with DTLS
> >       session establishment process.
> > Remark: No keepalive type timer expiry happens. So WTP will be up in NO time.
> It is a doom, if we do so. Anybody could send plain/unauthenticated discovery
> packet and tear down the existing WTP sessions at AC.
>
> >
> > Situation 2b: A fully functional (in Capwap Run State) WTP gets rebooted
> >               accidently, and once it is up, it starts sending non-DTLS type
> >               Discovery packet again to an AC.
> > Seperate Port Approach (Reactive implementation):
> >     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
> >     * it would do discovery reply.
> >     * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending
> >       CliehtHello message to 0x2FC0 port of AC.
> >     * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session
> >       information exists (with FSM=Run), AC would simply discard the
> >       clientHello packet. And would wait for the keepalive timer to expire for
> >       the WTP session under consideration. Once the timer is expired, WTP
> >       session information will be deleted, bringing AC in sync with WTP.
> >       Ultimately AC will start processing clientHello packets to carry on with
> >       DTLS session establishment.
> > Remark: WTP UP will be in close to keepalive timer value time.
> No. There is no reason for AC to discard clientHello packets.
>
> > Common Port Apporach (Reactive implementation):
> >     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
> >     * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists
> >       or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will simply drop the incoming
> >       discovery pacekt and wait for the keepalive timer to expire for the WTP
> >       session under consideration. Once the timer is expired, AC's FSM will be
> >       in sync with WTP. From this point onwards, AC will start processing
> >       discovery packets followed by DTLS session establishment.
> > Remark: WTP UP will be in close to keepalive timer value time
> >
> As Pat suggested, discarding discovery requests would lead to delay in
> re-joining of WTP.
>
> >
> > Situation 3: There is one fully functional legitimate WTP providing WLAN
> >              services and is Capwap controlled by an AC. An illegal WTP
> >              somehow gets access to the WTP/AC's networks and can snoop
> >              packets from the wire. In such situation, it can snoop legitimate
> >              WTP's IP address and start sending discovery request to the AC
> >              on 0x2FBF. This is a sort of DoS attack situation.
> > Seperate Port Approach (Proactive implementation):
> >     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
> >     * it would do discovery reply.
> >     * LETS NOT WORRY ABOUT LEGITIMATE WTP'S REACTION
> >       TO DISCOVERY REPLY.
> >     * Illegal WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by
> >       sending CliehtHello message (and fake IP address) to 0x2FC0 port of AC.
> >     * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session
> >       information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will assume that most likely WTP
> >       got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset  (state=Discovery) WTP
> >       session information.  Ultimately, AC would continue with DTLS session
> >       establishment by processing ClientHello message. But most likely the
> >       illegal WTP may not be having proper certificates etc, so its
> >       authentication will fail ultimately with AC.
> > Remark: DoS attack was SUCCESSFUL. A legitimate WTP's session was brought
> >         down by an illegal WTP.
> I believe if somebody implements AC like this, then it will be his fault
> to open such silly avenues for attacks. Existing session should be
> brought down only once DTLS authentication and a new connection
> establishment was successful. Otherwise, anyone can send DTLS
> clientHello packet to delete wtp sessions at AC.
>
>
>
> >
> > Situation 4: There is one fully functional legitimate WTP providing WLAN
> >              services and is Capwap controlled by an AC. An illegal WTP
> >              somehow gets access to the WTP/AC's networks and can snoop
> >              packets from the wire. In such situation, it can snoop legitimate
> >              WTP's IP address and start sending discovery request to the AC on
> >              0x2FBF. This is a sort of DoS attack situation.
> > Seperate Port Approach (Reactive implementation):
> >     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
> >     * it would do discovery reply.
> >     * LETS NOT WORRY ABOUT LEGITIMATE WTP'S REACTION TO DISCOVERY REPLY.
> >     * Illegal WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by
> >       sending CliehtHello message (and fake IP address) to 0x2FC0 port of AC.
> >     * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session
> >       information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will keep dropping the clientHello
> >       packet coming from duplicate (illegal) WTP. Assuming Capwap Keepalive
> >       messages continue to come to AC, legitimate WTP's session would remain
> >       intact.
> > Remark: DoS attack was NOT SUCCESSFUL.
> DTLS session can not be established with wrong certificate/credentials.
> Illegal WTP won't be able to establish a connection. Draft clearly says
> that the new session at AC is established only after WTP joins the AC.
>
> > Common Port Apporach (Reactive implementation):
> >     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
> >     * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists
> >       or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will simply drop the incoming
> >       discovery pacekt coming from duplicate (& illegal) WTP. Assuming Capwap
> >       Keepalive messages continue to come to AC, legitimate WTP's session
> >       would remain intact.
> > Remark: DoS attack was NOT successful.
> >
> >
> > Conclusion: Common Port approach behaves nearly same as Seperate port
> >                   approach be it normal functioning or DoS attack situation.
> There does not seem to be any such DoS attack situation with the two
> port approach as you presented in this mail. Moreover, the
> implementation of common port scheme, the way you suggested will
> definitely backfire.
>
>
>
> Hasan
>
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Universe is stations studios newspapers am bought sold pork damaged =
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From: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
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Comments inline.=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Charles Clancy <c=
lancy@cs.umd.edu>=0ATo: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>=0ACc: B=
ehcet Sarikaya <sarikaya@ieee.org>; capwap <capwap@frascone.com>=0ASent: Mo=
nday, October 23, 2006 11:00:38 AM=0ASubject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.1=
1r=0A=0AUnless PMK-R1s are preemptively distributed to WTPs to which a STA =
might=0Aroam (neighbor graphs, anyone?), you'll still have the WTP-AC laten=
cy for=0Athe WTP to request a PMK-R1 from the AC (R0KH).  This would be abo=
ut equal=0Ato the latency of having the AC validating Association Request p=
ackets.=0A=0A=3D=3D>PMK-R1 is sent during Authenticate req/resp exchange, s=
o no effect on ReassReq/Resp latency.=0A=0ADoes 11r let you proactively dis=
tribute PMK-R1s?  I don't see any=0Areferences in D3... all I see is the re=
active distribution protocol.=0A=3D=3D>I think it is possible but the key d=
istribution protocol is more advantageous because you do not distribute key=
s to WTPs that may never need to use such a key.=0A=0A=0AMy understanding i=
s that one of the reasons 11r is faster is because keys=0Acan be *reactivel=
y* transfered directly between APs without having to go=0Athrough the AAA s=
erver.  Unfortunately our main security association is=0Awith the AC, not t=
he WTP, and inter-WTP communications is bad, so=0Aeverything will have to g=
o through the AC.=0A=0A=3D=3D>No inter-WTP communications in CAPWAPRP.=0A=
=0A-- =0At. charles clancy, ph.d.  <>  tcc@umd.edu  <>  www.cs.umd.edu/~cla=
ncy=0A=0AOn Mon, October 23, 2006 10:28 am, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote:=
=0A> I agree with Charles - but I do believe there is a single issue. In th=
e=0A> case of local MAC, the IEEE 802.11 binding states that the WTP proces=
ses=0A> the Association Request and then forwards it to the AC. The AC can=
=0A> override the decision made by the WTP by sending a negative result=0A>=
 Association Response.=0A>=0A> When 802.11r, the local MAC WTP will not hav=
e the cryptographic keys=0A> necessary to validate the Association Request,=
 so it would *have* to=0A> defer to the AC. The question is whether this is=
 acceptable as it does=0A> change the timing of the Association round trip.=
 One alternative is to=0A> push the PMK-R1 keys to the WTP to allow the WTP=
 to perform its own=0A> authentication of the management frame.=0A>=0A> Pat=
 Calhoun=0A> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit=0A> Cisco Systems=0A>=
=0A>=0A>=0A>> -----Original Message-----=0A>> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:=
clancy@cs.umd.edu]=0A>> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:27 PM=0A>> To: =
Behcet Sarikaya=0A>> Cc: capwap=0A>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.1=
1r=0A>>=0A>> Behcet,=0A>>=0A>> > My proposal is to use the key distribution=
 protocol of=0A>> 802.11r which=0A>> > securely transports the keys.=0A>> >=
 Also no need for the context transfer which was what I had in mind.=0A>>=
=0A>> My point is that we don't need to distribute PMK-R1 keys=0A>> since a=
ll authenticator functionality will reside at the AC=0A>> regardless of the=
 MAC splitting, so we therefore don't need a=0A>> new key distribution prot=
ocol at all.=0A>>=0A>> Here's how I envision an 11r handoff:=0A>>=0A>> STA =
           WTP1           WTP2              AC=0A>> -----------------------=
---------------------------=0A>>=0A>> Initial authentication (as CAPWAP doe=
s now):=0A>>=0A>> <--- assoc ----->=0A>> <-------------- open authenticatio=
n ------------->=0A>> <----------------- 1X/EAP authentication -------->=0A=
>>                (derives PMK-R0, PMK-R1)=0A>> <--------------- four-way h=
andshake ------------->=0A>>                    (derives PTK)=0A>>         =
        <---------- add mobile (PTK) -----=0A>>=0A>> fast handoff:=0A>>=0A>=
>                (AC and STA derive new PMK-R1')=0A>> <------- FT / reassoc=
 (PMK Name, MIC, etc) ------>=0A>>                   (derives new PTK')=0A>=
>                               <- add mobile (PTK')=0A>>                 <=
---------- delete mobile --------=0A>>=0A>>=0A>> > Can you spare your ideas=
 why that would not work in CAPWAP?=0A>>=0A>> I'm not sure to what you're r=
eferring.  Using the=0A>> yet-to-be-defined 11r key distribution protocol d=
uplicates=0A>> the add-mobile CAPWAP architecture for distributing keying=
=0A>> material.  Additionally, it violates the security restriction=0A>> th=
at keys from the PMK-level in the keying hierarchy MUST=0A>> remain at the =
authenticator, which is the AC.=0A>>=0A>> > You're saying we only need the =
split MAC scenarios that I=0A>> have in the=0A>> > draft.=0A>>=0A>> I'm say=
ing that CAPWAP can support 11r without any protocol=0A>> changes.  The onl=
y changes I can envision being necessary are=0A>> perhaps capabilities flag=
s indicating support for 11r, so ACs=0A>> and WTPs know that each other sup=
ports 11r.  All the 11r=0A>> protocol processing would be implemented at th=
e AC.  The WTP=0A>> would just have to know about the additional 802.11 mes=
sages,=0A>> and know they should be forwarded to the AC.  WTPs and ACs=0A>>=
 would also have to support AES-CMAC, which is defined in 11r.=0A>>=0A>> --=
=0A>> t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy=
=0A>>=0A>> ________________________________________________________________=
_=0A>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:=0A=
>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=0A>>=0A>> Archives: ht=
tp://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=0A>>=0A>=0A=0A____________________=
_____________________________________________=0ATo unsubscribe or modify yo=
ur subscription options, please visit:=0Ahttp://lists.frascone.com/mailman/=
listinfo/capwap=0A=0AArchives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
--0-539991338-1161836886=:34521
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;f=
ont-size:12pt"><div style=3D"font-family: courier,monaco,monospace,sans-ser=
if; font-size: 12pt;">Comments inline.<br><br><div style=3D"font-family: ti=
mes new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">----- Original Messag=
e ----<br>From: Charles Clancy &lt;clancy@cs.umd.edu&gt;<br>To: Pat Calhoun=
 (pacalhou) &lt;pcalhoun@cisco.com&gt;<br>Cc: Behcet Sarikaya &lt;sarikaya@=
ieee.org&gt;; capwap &lt;capwap@frascone.com&gt;<br>Sent: Monday, October 2=
3, 2006 11:00:38 AM<br>Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<br><br><div=
>Unless PMK-R1s are preemptively distributed to WTPs to which a STA might<b=
r>roam (neighbor graphs, anyone?), you'll still have the WTP-AC latency for=
<br>the WTP to request a PMK-R1 from the AC (R0KH).&nbsp;&nbsp;This would b=
e about equal<br>to the latency of having the AC validating Association Req=
uest
 packets.<br><br>=3D=3D&gt;PMK-R1 is sent during Authenticate req/resp exch=
ange, so no effect on ReassReq/Resp latency.<br><br>Does 11r let you proact=
ively distribute PMK-R1s?&nbsp;&nbsp;I don't see any<br>references in D3...=
 all I see is the reactive distribution protocol.<br>=3D=3D&gt;I think it i=
s possible but the key distribution protocol is more advantageous because y=
ou do not distribute keys to WTPs that may never need to use such a key.<br=
><br><br>My understanding is that one of the reasons 11r is faster is becau=
se keys<br>can be *reactively* transfered directly between APs without havi=
ng to go<br>through the AAA server.&nbsp;&nbsp;Unfortunately our main secur=
ity association is<br>with the AC, not the WTP, and inter-WTP communication=
s is bad, so<br>everything will have to go through the AC.<br><br>=3D=3D&gt=
;No inter-WTP communications in CAPWAPRP.<br><br>-- <br>t. charles clancy, =
ph.d.&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;tcc@umd.edu&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;&gt;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;<a target=3D"_blank"
 href=3D"http://www.cs.umd.edu/%7Eclancy">www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy</a><br><br=
>On Mon, October 23, 2006 10:28 am, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote:<br>&gt;=
 I agree with Charles - but I do believe there is a single issue. In the<br=
>&gt; case of local MAC, the IEEE 802.11 binding states that the WTP proces=
ses<br>&gt; the Association Request and then forwards it to the AC. The AC =
can<br>&gt; override the decision made by the WTP by sending a negative res=
ult<br>&gt; Association Response.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; When 802.11r, the local M=
AC WTP will not have the cryptographic keys<br>&gt; necessary to validate t=
he Association Request, so it would *have* to<br>&gt; defer to the AC. The =
question is whether this is acceptable as it does<br>&gt; change the timing=
 of the Association round trip. One alternative is to<br>&gt; push the PMK-=
R1 keys to the WTP to allow the WTP to perform its own<br>&gt; authenticati=
on of the management frame.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Pat Calhoun<br>&gt; CTO, Wirele=
ss Networking
 Business Unit<br>&gt; Cisco Systems<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; --=
---Original Message-----<br>&gt;&gt; From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs=
.umd.edu]<br>&gt;&gt; Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:27 PM<br>&gt;&gt;=
 To: Behcet Sarikaya<br>&gt;&gt; Cc: capwap<br>&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [Capwa=
p] CAPWAP for 802.11r<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Behcet,<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&g=
t; &gt; My proposal is to use the key distribution protocol of<br>&gt;&gt; =
802.11r which<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; securely transports the keys.<br>&gt;&gt; &g=
t; Also no need for the context transfer which was what I had in mind.<br>&=
gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; My point is that we don't need to distribute PMK-R1 key=
s<br>&gt;&gt; since all authenticator functionality will reside at the AC<b=
r>&gt;&gt; regardless of the MAC splitting, so we therefore don't need a<br=
>&gt;&gt; new key distribution protocol at all.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Her=
e's how I envision an 11r handoff:<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;
 STA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;WTP1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WTP2&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;AC<br>&gt;&gt; --------------------------------------------------<br>&g=
t;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Initial authentication (as CAPWAP does now):<br>&gt;&gt;=
<br>&gt;&gt; &lt;--- assoc -----&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &lt;-------------- open au=
thentication -------------&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &lt;----------------- 1X/EAP aut=
hentication --------&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(derives PMK-R0, P=
MK-R1)<br>&gt;&gt; &lt;--------------- four-way handshake -------------&gt;=
<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(derives
 PTK)<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---------- add mobile (PTK) ----=
-<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; fast handoff:<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;(AC and STA derive new PMK-R1')<br>&gt;&gt; &lt;------- FT / reass=
oc (PMK Name, MIC, etc) ------&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; (derives new PTK')<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;- add=
 mobile (PTK')<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---------- delete mobil=
e --------<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Can you spare your idea=
s why that
 would not work in CAPWAP?<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; I'm not sure to what you=
're referring.&nbsp;&nbsp;Using the<br>&gt;&gt; yet-to-be-defined 11r key d=
istribution protocol duplicates<br>&gt;&gt; the add-mobile CAPWAP architect=
ure for distributing keying<br>&gt;&gt; material.&nbsp;&nbsp;Additionally, =
it violates the security restriction<br>&gt;&gt; that keys from the PMK-lev=
el in the keying hierarchy MUST<br>&gt;&gt; remain at the authenticator, wh=
ich is the AC.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; You're saying we only need the =
split MAC scenarios that I<br>&gt;&gt; have in the<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; draft.<=
br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; I'm saying that CAPWAP can support 11r without any =
protocol<br>&gt;&gt; changes.&nbsp;&nbsp;The only changes I can envision be=
ing necessary are<br>&gt;&gt; perhaps capabilities flags indicating support=
 for 11r, so ACs<br>&gt;&gt; and WTPs know that each other supports 11r.&nb=
sp;&nbsp;All the 11r<br>&gt;&gt; protocol processing would be implemented a=
t the
 AC.&nbsp;&nbsp;The WTP<br>&gt;&gt; would just have to know about the addit=
ional 802.11 messages,<br>&gt;&gt; and know they should be forwarded to the=
 AC.&nbsp;&nbsp;WTPs and ACs<br>&gt;&gt; would also have to support AES-CMA=
C, which is defined in 11r.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; --<br>&gt;&gt; t. charl=
es clancy, ph.d.&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;tcc@umd.edu&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbs=
p;<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.cs.umd.edu/%7Eclancy">www.cs.umd.=
edu/~clancy</a><br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; ___________________________________=
______________________________<br>&gt;&gt; To unsubscribe or modify your su=
bscription options, please visit:<br>&gt;&gt; <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"=
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap">http://lists.frascone.co=
m/mailman/listinfo/capwap</a><br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Archives: <a target=
=3D"_blank"
 href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap">http://lists.frascone.=
com/pipermail/capwap</a><br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br><br>_______________________=
__________________________________________<br>To unsubscribe or modify your=
 subscription options, please visit:<br><a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http:/=
/lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap">http://lists.frascone.com/mail=
man/listinfo/capwap</a><br><br>Archives: <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http:=
//lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap">http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/=
capwap</a><br></div></div><br></div></div></body></html>
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
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From: "Puneet Agarwal" <pagarwal@broadcom.com>
To: "Margaret Wasserman" <margaret@thingmagic.com>,
	"Pat Calhoun" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
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Hi Margaret,

I am OK with your 2 port solution (with shim header for capwap control
only).

To summarize, it seems that you are proposing that there be two UDP
ports reserved for CAPWAP:

A) CAPWAP Control Port: All discovery and capwap control messages flow
on this UDP port. There is a new shim (control mux) header added between
the UDP Header and the following header (where the following header
could be DTLS if encrypted or CAPWAP Hdr if non-encrypted ). The control
mux would specify if the packet is DTLS encrypted or not. I didn't want
to use the "Control Header" for the new shim as section 4 already talks
about a "Control Header".

B) CAPWAP Data Port: All CAPWAP Data messages flow on this UDP port. It
is a property of the UDP tunnel whether the payload in encrypted or not.
If the tunnel is encrypted, then a DTLS header follows the UDP Header.
If the tunnel is not encrypted, then a CAPWAP Header follows the UDP
Header. Note that there is no "control mux" after the UDP header.

Is the above interpretation correct?

Thanks.

-Puneet

-----Original Message-----
From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:09 AM
To: Pat Calhoun
Cc: Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; Puneet Agarwal; capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports


Hi all,

Just commenting as an individual contributor...

I prefer the intermediate header approach to the third port approach,
because I think it is a cleaner representation of what is actually
happening.

Different ports are used to reach different end points (different
systems or different processes running on the same system).  In CAPWAP,
we have one port to reach the data end-point and another to reach the
control end-point, because we think there are cases when the data and
control end-points may be different processes or run on different
systems.  That makes sense to me.

However, when we are talking about DTLS-encrypted and unencrypted
control packets, we aren't really talking about two different end-
points.  We are talking about a single control application that needs to
decide whether to treat each packet it received as unencrypted or as
DTLS-encrypted, in which case it needs to be handed to the DTLS engine
for decryption.  If you think about it that way, I think it would be
better for the control application to receive a packet that starts with
a short header that indicates whether this packet is DTLS- encrypted or
unencrypted.  If the packet is unencrypted, the control application
processes it directly (or ignores the packet if it isn't a discovery
packet), and if it is DTLS-encrypted, the control application strips off
the header and send the packet to the DTLS engine for decryption.  This
type of header might also allow for later expansion if the security
world evolves and a better security mechanism for CAPWAP's purposes
emerges.

So, I would prefer that we add a short header after the UDP header (a
CAPWAP control header?) that indicates the type of the encapsulated
packet (DTLS-encrypted or unencrypted).  I think 4 bytes would be long
enough for this header, and that would maintain 32-bit alignment.  IMO,
it should contain 2 fields -- a one byte version number (0x01) and a
three-byte type field.  At this point, only two types would be defined.

I do not have a major technical objection to the third port option, I
just think it is less clean from an architectural standpoint.

I would rather strenuously object to the proposed approaches that
involve zeroing out the DTLS header or running a packet through DTLS and
then treating it as unencrypted if that fails, etc.

Margaret


On Oct 25, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:

> Not pushing for the hack. I've stated I do not object to a third UDP 
> port, but provided an alternative should IANA refuse to give it to us.
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM
>> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com
>> Cc: capwap
>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
>>
>> "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" wrote:
>>
>>> Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a
>>> packet with  'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which
>> is of lengh 'y'.
>>
>> ...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right?
>> I'm having a really hard time understanding why you're
>> pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. We
>> are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do it
>> right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we don't
>> adopt this hack?
>>
>> Scott
>>
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap



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Many a true word is spoken in jest Never eat the yellow snow. A Frank Zappa=
 song. Alternate: If something is worth doing, someone will have already do=
ne it. Brain is better than brawn. Who guards the guards?
The cure is worse than the disease. Mouth is in gear, brain is in neutral G=
ood fences make good neighbors.
Laughter is the best medicine. Abbreviation: Speak of the devil. It's bette=
r to give than to receive. The coat makes the man.
Possible Interpretation: It is always easy to see your mistakes after they =
occur. Jack is as good as his master. A miss by an inch is a miss by a mile=
 Attributed to Benjamin Franklin; Poor Richard's Almanac. If the cap fits,=
 wear it. William Shakespeare.
Kill two birds with one stone. One man's junk is another man's treasure. He=
aven protects children, sailors and drunken men. The best things come in sm=
all packages.
Attributed to Winston Churchill. It's easier to turn falsehood loose than c=
orrect it everywhere it runs to. Alternative: Red sky at night: sailor's' d=
elight. Red sky in the morn: sailor's be warned. All sizzle and no steak. A=
pril showers bring May flowers. Nothing succeeds like success.


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<DIV><DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>FARGO, North Dakota (AP=
) -- Alfonso Rodriguez Jr. stabbed college student Dru Sjodin, slit her thr=
oat and left her to die, a federal prosecutor told jurors Monday.<BR>NASHVI=
LLE, Tennessee (Court TV) -- The father of a Nashville attorney on trial fo=
r killing his wife claims he reburied his murdered daughter-in-law and disp=
osed of evidence relating to her killing.<BR>EA scores touchdown with Madde=
n</FONT></DIV><IMG alt=3D"exhortation mitral sane notorious" hspace=3D0 src=
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 posseman camellia</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>llow inmates. l storms or mo=
nster hurricanes like Katrina and Andrew. severalty CHOWCHILLA, California =
(AP) -- Sara Jane Olson, the former Symbionese Liberation Army fugitive who=
 became a Minnesota housewife and is now serving prison time for trying to =
bomb police cars in the 1970s, says she tries to hide her radical past from=
 her fe NEW YORK (AP) -- Talk-show hosts Jerry Springer and conservative Tu=
cker Carlson of MSNBC will be among the celebrities competing on the third =
season of ABC television's "Dancing With the Stars. BOSTON, Massachusetts (=
Reuters) -- The maker of the Segway scooter Monday unveiled the second gene=
ration of its self-balancing electric one-person vehicle.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>COLOMBO, SRI LANKA: '100 Tig=
ers dead' in sea battle Money Magazine: Best jobs in America Atlantis' astr=
onauts strapped into the space shuttle Thursday for a practice launch count=
down more than two weeks before they are scheduled to blast off on a missio=
n to resume construction of the international space station. KANDAHAR, AFGH=
ANISTAN: 14 dead in Afghanistan crash You may be paid more (or less) than y=
ou think FARGO, North Dakota (AP) -- Alfonso Rodriguez Jr. stabbed college =
student Dru Sjodin, slit her throat and left her to die, a federal prosecut=
or told jurors Monday. Wealth gap between richest and the average Joe grows=
 50% since the 1960s</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lockheed beats Boeing for mo=
on launcher ENGLAND: Top judge to rule on Diana death NEW YORK (Fortune) --=
 For the past decade, Honda has been out of step with most of its North Ame=
rican competitors - sometimes defiantly so. sausage RICHMOND, Virginia (AP)=
 -- A man accused of killing a musician and his family and suspected in a s=
eries of other crimes pleaded not guilty Monday as jury selection got under=
 way in his capital murder trial. NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Warren Buffett's Be=
rkshire Hathaway Inc. said Monday it has amassed a 1.97 million share stake=
 in Johnson & Johnson, and appears to have sold shares of clothing retailer=
 Gap Inc. kovacs</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Warren=
 Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway Inc. said Monday it has amassed a 1.97 millio=
n share stake in Johnson & Johnson, and appears to have sold shares of clot=
hing retailer Gap Inc. wary ENGLAND: Top judge to rule on Diana death Atlan=
tis' astronauts strapped into the space shuttle Thursday for a practice lau=
nch countdown more than two weeks before they are scheduled to blast off on=
 a mission to resume construction of the international space station. NASHV=
ILLE, Tennessee (Court TV) -- The father of a Nashville attorney on trial f=
or killing his wife claims he reburied his murdered daughter-in-law and dis=
posed of evidence relating to her killing. renewal</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>CANBERRA, Australia (Reuters=
) -- Australian scientists have begun looking at smell sensors in worms and=
 insects to help them build an electronic "cybernose" they hope will one da=
y be capable of measuring aromas and flavors in wine. l storms or monster h=
urricanes like Katrina and Andrew. EA scores touchdown with Madden bugaboo =
ASIA More Asia News BANGKOK, THAILAND: Thai bombs leave 2 dead, 28 hurt tro=
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All,

I believe that we previously agreed that the
initial CAPWAP specification(s) will support 802.11 capabilities through
those defined in  802.11-REVma, expected to be approved in Dec 06, and that
unapproved amendments including .11k, .11r, .11n etc would be dealt with
in a future version.

Thus  802.11r support in CAPWAP, the discussion of which is very
interesting,
is not in scope for the current CAPWAP specifications under development.

Thanks,

Dorothy

On 10/25/06, Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Comments inline.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Charles Clancy <clancy@cs.umd.edu>
> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
> Cc: Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya@ieee.org>; capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 11:00:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>
> Unless PMK-R1s are preemptively distributed to WTPs to which a STA might
> roam (neighbor graphs, anyone?), you'll still have the WTP-AC latency for
> the WTP to request a PMK-R1 from the AC (R0KH).  This would be about equal
> to the latency of having the AC validating Association Request packets.
>
> ==>PMK-R1 is sent during Authenticate req/resp exchange, so no effect on
> ReassReq/Resp latency.
>
> Does 11r let you proactively distribute PMK-R1s?  I don't see any
> references in D3... all I see is the reactive distribution protocol.
> ==>I think it is possible but the key distribution protocol is more
> advantageous because you do not distribute keys to WTPs that may never need
> to use such a key.
>
>
> My understanding is that one of the reasons 11r is faster is because keys
> can be *reactively* transfered directly between APs without having to go
> through the AAA server.  Unfortunately our main security association is
> with the AC, not the WTP, and inter-WTP communications is bad, so
> everything will have to go through the AC.
>
> ==>No inter-WTP communications in CAPWAPRP.
>
> --
> t. charles clancy, ph.d.  <>  tcc@umd.edu  <>  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy<http://www.cs.umd.edu/%7Eclancy>
>
> On Mon, October 23, 2006 10:28 am, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote:
> > I agree with Charles - but I do believe there is a single issue. In the
> > case of local MAC, the IEEE 802.11 binding states that the WTP processes
> > the Association Request and then forwards it to the AC. The AC can
> > override the decision made by the WTP by sending a negative result
> > Association Response.
> >
> > When 802.11r, the local MAC WTP will not have the cryptographic keys
> > necessary to validate the Association Request, so it would *have* to
> > defer to the AC. The question is whether this is acceptable as it does
> > change the timing of the Association round trip. One alternative is to
> > push the PMK-R1 keys to the WTP to allow the WTP to perform its own
> > authentication of the management frame.
> >
> > Pat Calhoun
> > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> > Cisco Systems
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu]
> >> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:27 PM
> >> To: Behcet Sarikaya
> >> Cc: capwap
> >> Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
> >>
> >> Behcet,
> >>
> >> > My proposal is to use the key distribution protocol of
> >> 802.11r which
> >> > securely transports the keys.
> >> > Also no need for the context transfer which was what I had in mind.
> >>
> >> My point is that we don't need to distribute PMK-R1 keys
> >> since all authenticator functionality will reside at the AC
> >> regardless of the MAC splitting, so we therefore don't need a
> >> new key distribution protocol at all.
> >>
> >> Here's how I envision an 11r handoff:
> >>
> >> STA            WTP1           WTP2              AC
> >> --------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Initial authentication (as CAPWAP does now):
> >>
> >> <--- assoc ----->
> >> <-------------- open authentication ------------->
> >> <----------------- 1X/EAP authentication -------->
> >>                (derives PMK-R0, PMK-R1)
> >> <--------------- four-way handshake ------------->
> >>                    (derives PTK)
> >>                 <---------- add mobile (PTK) -----
> >>
> >> fast handoff:
> >>
> >>                (AC and STA derive new PMK-R1')
> >> <------- FT / reassoc (PMK Name, MIC, etc) ------>
> >>                   (derives new PTK')
> >>                               <- add mobile (PTK')
> >>                 <---------- delete mobile --------
> >>
> >>
> >> > Can you spare your ideas why that would not work in CAPWAP?
> >>
> >> I'm not sure to what you're referring.  Using the
> >> yet-to-be-defined 11r key distribution protocol duplicates
> >> the add-mobile CAPWAP architecture for distributing keying
> >> material.  Additionally, it violates the security restriction
> >> that keys from the PMK-level in the keying hierarchy MUST
> >> remain at the authenticator, which is the AC.
> >>
> >> > You're saying we only need the split MAC scenarios that I
> >> have in the
> >> > draft.
> >>
> >> I'm saying that CAPWAP can support 11r without any protocol
> >> changes.  The only changes I can envision being necessary are
> >> perhaps capabilities flags indicating support for 11r, so ACs
> >> and WTPs know that each other supports 11r.  All the 11r
> >> protocol processing would be implemented at the AC.  The WTP
> >> would just have to know about the additional 802.11 messages,
> >> and know they should be forwarded to the AC.  WTPs and ACs
> >> would also have to support AES-CMAC, which is defined in 11r.
> >>
> >> --
> >> t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy<http://www.cs.umd.edu/%7Eclancy>
> >>
> >> _________________________________________________________________
> >> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> >> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> >>
> >> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> >>
> >
>
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All,<br>
<br>
I believe that we previously agreed that the<br>
initial CAPWAP specification(s) will support 802.11 capabilities through<br>
those defined in&nbsp; 802.11-REVma, expected to be approved in Dec 06, and that<br>
unapproved amendments including .11k, .11r, .11n etc would be dealt with<br>
in a future version. <br>
<br>
Thus&nbsp; 802.11r support in CAPWAP, the discussion of which is very interesting,<br>
is not in scope for the current CAPWAP specifications under development.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Dorothy<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/25/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Behcet Sarikaya</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com">behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div style="font-family: courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div style="font-family: courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Comments inline.<br><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span class="q">----- Original Message ----<br>From: Charles Clancy &lt;<a href="mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">clancy@cs.umd.edu</a>&gt;<br></span><span class="q">
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) &lt;<a href="mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">pcalhoun@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>Cc: Behcet Sarikaya &lt;<a href="mailto:sarikaya@ieee.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
sarikaya@ieee.org</a>&gt;; capwap &lt;<a href="mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com</a>&gt;<br>Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 11:00:38 AM<br>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<br><br></span><div><span class="q">Unless PMK-R1s are preemptively distributed to WTPs to which a STA might<br>roam (neighbor graphs, anyone?), you'll still have the WTP-AC latency for
<br>the WTP to request a PMK-R1 from the AC (R0KH).&nbsp;&nbsp;This would be about equal<br>to the latency of having the AC validating Association Request
 packets.<br><br></span>==&gt;PMK-R1 is sent during Authenticate req/resp exchange, so no effect on ReassReq/Resp latency.<span class="q"><br><br>Does 11r let you proactively distribute PMK-R1s?&nbsp;&nbsp;I don't see any<br>references in D3... all I see is the reactive distribution protocol.
<br></span>==&gt;I
think it is possible but the key distribution protocol is more
advantageous because you do not distribute keys to WTPs that may never
need to use such a key.<span class="q"><br><br><br>My understanding is that one of the reasons 11r is faster is because keys<br>can be *reactively* transfered directly between APs without having to go<br>through the AAA server.&nbsp;&nbsp;Unfortunately our main security association is
<br>with the AC, not the WTP, and inter-WTP communications is bad, so<br>everything will have to go through the AC.<br><br></span>==&gt;No inter-WTP communications in CAPWAPRP.<div><span class="e" id="q_10e82e1fe9fa7d80_10">
<br><br>-- <br>t. charles clancy, ph.d.&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="mailto:tcc@umd.edu" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">tcc@umd.edu</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="http://www.cs.umd.edu/%7Eclancy" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy</a><br><br>On Mon, October 23, 2006 10:28 am, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote:<br>&gt; I agree with Charles - but I do believe there is a single issue. In the<br>&gt; case of local MAC, the IEEE 802.11
 binding states that the WTP processes<br>&gt; the Association Request and then forwards it to the AC. The AC can<br>&gt; override the decision made by the WTP by sending a negative result<br>&gt; Association Response.<br>
&gt;<br>&gt; When 802.11r, the local MAC WTP will not have the cryptographic keys<br>&gt; necessary to validate the Association Request, so it would *have* to<br>&gt; defer to the AC. The question is whether this is acceptable as it does
<br>&gt; change the timing of the Association round trip. One alternative is to<br>&gt; push the PMK-R1 keys to the WTP to allow the WTP to perform its own<br>&gt; authentication of the management frame.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Pat Calhoun
<br>&gt; CTO, Wireless Networking
 Business Unit<br>&gt; Cisco Systems<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt;&gt; From: Charles Clancy [mailto:<a href="mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
clancy@cs.umd.edu</a>]<br>&gt;&gt; Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:27 PM<br>&gt;&gt; To: Behcet Sarikaya<br>&gt;&gt; Cc: capwap<br>&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Behcet,<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; My proposal is to use the key distribution protocol of<br>&gt;&gt; 802.11r which<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; securely transports the keys.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Also no need for the context transfer which was what I had in mind.
<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; My point is that we don't need to distribute PMK-R1 keys<br>&gt;&gt; since all authenticator functionality will reside at the AC<br>&gt;&gt; regardless of the MAC splitting, so we therefore don't need a
<br>&gt;&gt; new key distribution protocol at all.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Here's how I envision an 11r handoff:<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;
STA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;WTP1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
WTP2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;AC<br>&gt;&gt; --------------------------------------------------<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Initial authentication (as CAPWAP does now):<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &lt;--- assoc -----&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &lt;-------------- open authentication -------------&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; &lt;----------------- 1X/EAP authentication --------&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(derives PMK-R0, PMK-R1)<br>&gt;&gt; &lt;--------------- four-way handshake -------------&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(derives
PTK)<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
&lt;---------- add mobile (PTK) -----<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; fast handoff:<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(AC
and STA derive new PMK-R1')<br>&gt;&gt; &lt;------- FT / reassoc (PMK Name, MIC, etc) ------&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
(derives new PTK')<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;- add mobile (PTK')<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
&lt;---------- delete mobile --------<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Can you spare your ideas why that
 would not work in CAPWAP?<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; I'm not sure to what you're referring.&nbsp;&nbsp;Using the<br>&gt;&gt; yet-to-be-defined 11r key distribution protocol duplicates<br>&gt;&gt; the add-mobile CAPWAP architecture for distributing keying
<br>&gt;&gt; material.&nbsp;&nbsp;Additionally, it violates the security restriction<br>&gt;&gt; that keys from the PMK-level in the keying hierarchy MUST<br>&gt;&gt; remain at the authenticator, which is the AC.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; You're saying we only need the split MAC scenarios that I
<br>&gt;&gt; have in the<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; draft.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; I'm saying that CAPWAP can support 11r without any protocol<br>&gt;&gt; changes.&nbsp;&nbsp;The only changes I can envision being necessary are<br>&gt;&gt; perhaps capabilities flags indicating support for 11r, so ACs
<br>&gt;&gt; and WTPs know that each other supports 11r.&nbsp;&nbsp;All the 11r<br>&gt;&gt; protocol processing would be implemented at the
 AC.&nbsp;&nbsp;The WTP<br>&gt;&gt; would just have to know about the additional 802.11 messages,<br>&gt;&gt; and know they should be forwarded to the AC.&nbsp;&nbsp;WTPs and ACs<br>&gt;&gt; would also have to support AES-CMAC, which is defined in 11r.
<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; --<br>&gt;&gt; t. charles clancy, ph.d.&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="mailto:tcc@umd.edu" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">tcc@umd.edu</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="http://www.cs.umd.edu/%7Eclancy" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy</a><br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; _________________________________________________________________<br>&gt;&gt; To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<br>&gt;&gt; <a href="http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</a><br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Archives: <a href="http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
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Could you explain why you believe the sessionID should not be protected? =
Seems like the IP address and UDP port are sufficient to distinguish the =
WTP (for encrypted data plane, this would be known after the first =
packet is received.

PatC

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com]
Sent:	Wednesday, October 25, 2006 11:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
To:	Puneet Agarwal; Margaret Wasserman; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. =
Kelly
Cc:	capwap
Subject:	RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports

Folks,
I like the solution below, but I'd go one step further.
We should just have a single CAPWAP packet format.
The shim header should be present in both capwap
control and data packets, and  should have a
field to indicate  encrypted/unencrypted as well
as a type/sessionId field.
=20
For packets arriving  on either control or data port,
the encrypted/unencrypted field indicates whether
the payload is DTLS encrypted.
=20
For DTLS encrypted packets arriving on the data port,=20
the type/sessionId field  indicates the QoS level in=20
order to avoid antireplay issues.
=20
This approach is simple, clean and addresses all the=20
concerns raised so far on this issue:
=20
1.  Uses separate control and data UDP ports to steer packets
      through legacy devices with different levels of QoS
2.  Is able to distinguish between encrypted and unencrypted packets
     in the CAPWAP payload.
3.  Is able to support multiple QoS levels if the data channel is=20
     DTLS encrypted.

I believe this is similar to the proposal that Scott=20
presented in one of his earlier emails.=20
=20
Regards,
Abhijit
________________________________

From: Puneet Agarwal [mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com]
Sent: Wed 10/25/2006 11:17 PM
To: Margaret Wasserman; Pat Calhoun
Cc: Hasan Raza; capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports



Hi Margaret,

I am OK with your 2 port solution (with shim header for capwap control
only).

To summarize, it seems that you are proposing that there be two UDP
ports reserved for CAPWAP:

A) CAPWAP Control Port: All discovery and capwap control messages flow
on this UDP port. There is a new shim (control mux) header added between
the UDP Header and the following header (where the following header
could be DTLS if encrypted or CAPWAP Hdr if non-encrypted ). The control
mux would specify if the packet is DTLS encrypted or not. I didn't want
to use the "Control Header" for the new shim as section 4 already talks
about a "Control Header".

B) CAPWAP Data Port: All CAPWAP Data messages flow on this UDP port. It
is a property of the UDP tunnel whether the payload in encrypted or not.
If the tunnel is encrypted, then a DTLS header follows the UDP Header.
If the tunnel is not encrypted, then a CAPWAP Header follows the UDP
Header. Note that there is no "control mux" after the UDP header.

Is the above interpretation correct?

Thanks.

-Puneet

-----Original Message-----
From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:09 AM
To: Pat Calhoun
Cc: Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; Puneet Agarwal; capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports


Hi all,

Just commenting as an individual contributor...

I prefer the intermediate header approach to the third port approach,
because I think it is a cleaner representation of what is actually
happening.

Different ports are used to reach different end points (different
systems or different processes running on the same system).  In CAPWAP,
we have one port to reach the data end-point and another to reach the
control end-point, because we think there are cases when the data and
control end-points may be different processes or run on different
systems.  That makes sense to me.

However, when we are talking about DTLS-encrypted and unencrypted
control packets, we aren't really talking about two different end-
points.  We are talking about a single control application that needs to
decide whether to treat each packet it received as unencrypted or as
DTLS-encrypted, in which case it needs to be handed to the DTLS engine
for decryption.  If you think about it that way, I think it would be
better for the control application to receive a packet that starts with
a short header that indicates whether this packet is DTLS- encrypted or
unencrypted.  If the packet is unencrypted, the control application
processes it directly (or ignores the packet if it isn't a discovery
packet), and if it is DTLS-encrypted, the control application strips off
the header and send the packet to the DTLS engine for decryption.  This
type of header might also allow for later expansion if the security
world evolves and a better security mechanism for CAPWAP's purposes
emerges.

So, I would prefer that we add a short header after the UDP header (a
CAPWAP control header?) that indicates the type of the encapsulated
packet (DTLS-encrypted or unencrypted).  I think 4 bytes would be long
enough for this header, and that would maintain 32-bit alignment.  IMO,
it should contain 2 fields -- a one byte version number (0x01) and a
three-byte type field.  At this point, only two types would be defined.

I do not have a major technical objection to the third port option, I
just think it is less clean from an architectural standpoint.

I would rather strenuously object to the proposed approaches that
involve zeroing out the DTLS header or running a packet through DTLS and
then treating it as unencrypted if that fails, etc.

Margaret


On Oct 25, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:

> Not pushing for the hack. I've stated I do not object to a third UDP
> port, but provided an alternative should IANA refuse to give it to us.
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM
>> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com
>> Cc: capwap
>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
>>
>> "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" wrote:
>>
>>> Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a
>>> packet with  'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which
>> is of lengh 'y'.
>>
>> ...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right?
>> I'm having a really hard time understanding why you're
>> pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. We
>> are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do it
>> right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we don't
>> adopt this hack?
>>
>> Scott
>>
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap



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<TITLE>RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Could you explain why you believe the sessionID should =
not be protected? Seems like the IP address and UDP port are sufficient =
to distinguish the WTP (for encrypted data plane, this would be known =
after the first packet is received.<BR>
<BR>
PatC<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: &nbsp; Abhijit Choudhury [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com">mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com</A>]<BR>
Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp; Wednesday, October 25, 2006 11:59 PM Pacific Standard =
Time<BR>
To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Puneet Agarwal; Margaret Wasserman; Pat =
Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly<BR>
Cc:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; capwap<BR>
Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; RE: [Capwap] need =
clarification on UDP ports<BR>
<BR>
Folks,<BR>
I like the solution below, but I'd go one step further.<BR>
We should just have a single CAPWAP packet format.<BR>
The shim header should be present in both capwap<BR>
control and data packets, and&nbsp; should have a<BR>
field to indicate&nbsp; encrypted/unencrypted as well<BR>
as a type/sessionId field.<BR>
<BR>
For packets arriving&nbsp; on either control or data port,<BR>
the encrypted/unencrypted field indicates whether<BR>
the payload is DTLS encrypted.<BR>
<BR>
For DTLS encrypted packets arriving on the data port,<BR>
the type/sessionId field&nbsp; indicates the QoS level in<BR>
order to avoid antireplay issues.<BR>
<BR>
This approach is simple, clean and addresses all the<BR>
concerns raised so far on this issue:<BR>
<BR>
1.&nbsp; Uses separate control and data UDP ports to steer packets<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; through legacy devices with different =
levels of QoS<BR>
2.&nbsp; Is able to distinguish between encrypted and unencrypted =
packets<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; in the CAPWAP payload.<BR>
3.&nbsp; Is able to support multiple QoS levels if the data channel =
is<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DTLS encrypted.<BR>
<BR>
I believe this is similar to the proposal that Scott<BR>
presented in one of his earlier emails.<BR>
<BR>
Regards,<BR>
Abhijit<BR>
________________________________<BR>
<BR>
From: Puneet Agarwal [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com">mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com</A>]<B=
R>
Sent: Wed 10/25/2006 11:17 PM<BR>
To: Margaret Wasserman; Pat Calhoun<BR>
Cc: Hasan Raza; capwap<BR>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hi Margaret,<BR>
<BR>
I am OK with your 2 port solution (with shim header for capwap =
control<BR>
only).<BR>
<BR>
To summarize, it seems that you are proposing that there be two UDP<BR>
ports reserved for CAPWAP:<BR>
<BR>
A) CAPWAP Control Port: All discovery and capwap control messages =
flow<BR>
on this UDP port. There is a new shim (control mux) header added =
between<BR>
the UDP Header and the following header (where the following header<BR>
could be DTLS if encrypted or CAPWAP Hdr if non-encrypted ). The =
control<BR>
mux would specify if the packet is DTLS encrypted or not. I didn't =
want<BR>
to use the &quot;Control Header&quot; for the new shim as section 4 =
already talks<BR>
about a &quot;Control Header&quot;.<BR>
<BR>
B) CAPWAP Data Port: All CAPWAP Data messages flow on this UDP port. =
It<BR>
is a property of the UDP tunnel whether the payload in encrypted or =
not.<BR>
If the tunnel is encrypted, then a DTLS header follows the UDP =
Header.<BR>
If the tunnel is not encrypted, then a CAPWAP Header follows the UDP<BR>
Header. Note that there is no &quot;control mux&quot; after the UDP =
header.<BR>
<BR>
Is the above interpretation correct?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
-Puneet<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Margaret Wasserman [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com">mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com</A=
>]<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:09 AM<BR>
To: Pat Calhoun<BR>
Cc: Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; Puneet Agarwal; capwap<BR>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hi all,<BR>
<BR>
Just commenting as an individual contributor...<BR>
<BR>
I prefer the intermediate header approach to the third port =
approach,<BR>
because I think it is a cleaner representation of what is actually<BR>
happening.<BR>
<BR>
Different ports are used to reach different end points (different<BR>
systems or different processes running on the same system).&nbsp; In =
CAPWAP,<BR>
we have one port to reach the data end-point and another to reach =
the<BR>
control end-point, because we think there are cases when the data =
and<BR>
control end-points may be different processes or run on different<BR>
systems.&nbsp; That makes sense to me.<BR>
<BR>
However, when we are talking about DTLS-encrypted and unencrypted<BR>
control packets, we aren't really talking about two different end-<BR>
points.&nbsp; We are talking about a single control application that =
needs to<BR>
decide whether to treat each packet it received as unencrypted or as<BR>
DTLS-encrypted, in which case it needs to be handed to the DTLS =
engine<BR>
for decryption.&nbsp; If you think about it that way, I think it would =
be<BR>
better for the control application to receive a packet that starts =
with<BR>
a short header that indicates whether this packet is DTLS- encrypted =
or<BR>
unencrypted.&nbsp; If the packet is unencrypted, the control =
application<BR>
processes it directly (or ignores the packet if it isn't a discovery<BR>
packet), and if it is DTLS-encrypted, the control application strips =
off<BR>
the header and send the packet to the DTLS engine for decryption.&nbsp; =
This<BR>
type of header might also allow for later expansion if the security<BR>
world evolves and a better security mechanism for CAPWAP's purposes<BR>
emerges.<BR>
<BR>
So, I would prefer that we add a short header after the UDP header =
(a<BR>
CAPWAP control header?) that indicates the type of the encapsulated<BR>
packet (DTLS-encrypted or unencrypted).&nbsp; I think 4 bytes would be =
long<BR>
enough for this header, and that would maintain 32-bit alignment.&nbsp; =
IMO,<BR>
it should contain 2 fields -- a one byte version number (0x01) and a<BR>
three-byte type field.&nbsp; At this point, only two types would be =
defined.<BR>
<BR>
I do not have a major technical objection to the third port option, =
I<BR>
just think it is less clean from an architectural standpoint.<BR>
<BR>
I would rather strenuously object to the proposed approaches that<BR>
involve zeroing out the DTLS header or running a packet through DTLS =
and<BR>
then treating it as unencrypted if that fails, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Margaret<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On Oct 25, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
&gt; Not pushing for the hack. I've stated I do not object to a third =
UDP<BR>
&gt; port, but provided an alternative should IANA refuse to give it to =
us.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; Pat Calhoun<BR>
&gt; CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>
&gt;&gt; From: Scott G. Kelly [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com">mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com</A>]<B=
R>
&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM<BR>
&gt;&gt; To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Hasan Raza; =
pagarwal@broadcom.com<BR>
&gt;&gt; Cc: capwap<BR>
&gt;&gt; Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; &quot;Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)&quot; wrote:<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation =
receiving a<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; packet with&nbsp; 'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, =
which<BR>
&gt;&gt; is of lengh 'y'.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; ...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right?<BR>
&gt;&gt; I'm having a really hard time understanding why you're<BR>
&gt;&gt; pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. =
We<BR>
&gt;&gt; are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do =
it<BR>
&gt;&gt; right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we =
don't<BR>
&gt;&gt; adopt this hack?<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; Scott<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt; =
_________________________________________________________________<BR>
&gt; To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please =
visit:<BR>
&gt; <A =
HREF=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap">http://lists.f=
rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</A><BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; Archives: <A =
HREF=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap">http://lists.frascone=
.com/pipermail/capwap</A><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________________<BR>
To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<BR>
<A =
HREF=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap">http://lists.f=
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Archives: <A =
HREF=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap">http://lists.frascone=
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I see your point. Clearly, some interim CAPWAP state is needed between
idle and join, which we could call "DTLS Establishment".

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 6:37 PM
> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); 'capwap'
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state
> 
> Pat,
> 
> The spec talks about transitioning to join state from idle - 
> (Idle to Join (aa)). This would make it necessary for CAPWAP 
> to know of the various DTLS packets are being received during 
> handshake. Why is it necessary to have a "join ready" state?
> 
> Thanks
> Smitha
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:26 PM
> To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); 'capwap'
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state
> 
> I'm not so sure. If that were the case we would need a "join 
> ready" state. We clearly need to transition to a new 
> (non-DTLS) state when the DTLS channel is open.
> 
> PatC
> 
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: 	Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)
> Sent:	Tuesday, October 24, 2006 08:52 AM Pacific Standard Time
> To:	capwap
> Subject:	[Capwap] transition to join state
> 
> All,
>  
> The spec talks about AC transitioning to Join state on 
> receiving DTLS Client Hello with a valid cookie. Should this 
> really be the case? 
> The AC should transition to Join state on receiving a Join Request.
>  
> Thanks
> Smitha
>  
> 
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "Margaret Wasserman" <margaret@thingmagic.com>
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Cc: Hasan Raza <Hasan@sinett.com>, capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
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ok... no real objections on including an interim (short) tag to
represent the packet type. If we are to go down this path, I would
prefer that we maintain consistency across both the control and data
plane, and include the same header on both UDP ports. This way, if a
DTLS session is being used to secure the data plane, the (relatively)
same pre-parsing and security validation logic can be used.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:09 AM
> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> Cc: Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com; capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Just commenting as an individual contributor...
> 
> I prefer the intermediate header approach to the third port 
> approach, because I think it is a cleaner representation of 
> what is actually happening.
> 
> Different ports are used to reach different end points 
> (different systems or different processes running on the same 
> system).  In CAPWAP, we have one port to reach the data 
> end-point and another to reach the control end-point, because 
> we think there are cases when the data and control end-points 
> may be different processes or run on different systems.  That 
> makes sense to me.
> 
> However, when we are talking about DTLS-encrypted and 
> unencrypted control packets, we aren't really talking about 
> two different end- points.  We are talking about a single 
> control application that needs to decide whether to treat 
> each packet it received as unencrypted or as DTLS-encrypted, 
> in which case it needs to be handed to the DTLS engine for 
> decryption.  If you think about it that way, I think it would 
> be better for the control application to receive a packet 
> that starts with a short header that indicates whether this 
> packet is DTLS- encrypted or unencrypted.  If the packet is 
> unencrypted, the control application processes it directly 
> (or ignores the packet if it isn't a discovery packet), and 
> if it is DTLS-encrypted, the control application strips off 
> the header and send the packet to the DTLS engine for 
> decryption.  This type of header might also allow for later 
> expansion if the security world evolves and a better security 
> mechanism for CAPWAP's purposes emerges.
> 
> So, I would prefer that we add a short header after the UDP 
> header (a CAPWAP control header?) that indicates the type of 
> the encapsulated packet (DTLS-encrypted or unencrypted).  I 
> think 4 bytes would be long enough for this header, and that 
> would maintain 32-bit alignment.  IMO, it should contain 2 
> fields -- a one byte version number (0x01) and a three-byte 
> type field.  At this point, only two types would be defined.
> 
> I do not have a major technical objection to the third port 
> option, I just think it is less clean from an architectural 
> standpoint.
> 
> I would rather strenuously object to the proposed approaches 
> that involve zeroing out the DTLS header or running a packet 
> through DTLS and then treating it as unencrypted if that fails, etc.
> 
> Margaret
> 
> 
> On Oct 25, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
> 
> > Not pushing for the hack. I've stated I do not object to a 
> third UDP 
> > port, but provided an alternative should IANA refuse to 
> give it to us.
> >
> > Pat Calhoun
> > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM
> >> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com
> >> Cc: capwap
> >> Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
> >>
> >> "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" wrote:
> >>
> >>> Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a
> >>> packet with  'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which
> >> is of lengh 'y'.
> >>
> >> ...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right?
> >> I'm having a really hard time understanding why you're
> >> pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. We
> >> are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do it
> >> right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we don't
> >> adopt this hack?
> >>
> >> Scott
> >>
> > _________________________________________________________________
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "Navin (NKA)" <nka.capwap@gmail.com>,
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> Situation 1: A legitimate WTP just now got powered and once 
> its up, it starts
>              sending discovery packet to ACs. And once 
> discovery is complete,
>              DTLS session establishment between WTP and AC.
> Seperate Port Apporach:
>     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
>     * it would do discovery reply.
>     * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement 
> by sending
>       CliehtHello message to 0x2FC0 port of AC.
>     * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that 
> no prior session
>       information exists, it would continue with DTLS session 
> establishment
>       process.
> 
> Common Port Apporach:
>     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
Given that the Discovery packet is optional, how did the AC determine
this is a Discovery packet as opposed to the beginning of the DTLS
session setup? That's the challenge we are trying to resolve.

>     * AC will try finding out if prior session information 
> for the WTP exists
>       or not. If not, it would do discovery reply.
>     * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement 
> by sending
>       CliehtHello message to 0x2FBF port of AC.
>     * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FBF and finds out that 
> prior WTP session
>       information exists (and FSM state is Discovery), it 
> would continue with
>       DTLS session establishment process.
> 
> 
> Situation 2a: A fully functional (in Capwap Run State) WTP 
> gets rebooted
>               accidently, and once it is up, it starts 
> sending non-DTLS type
>               Discovery packet again to an AC.
> Seperate Port Approach (Proactive implementation):
>     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
>     * it would do discovery reply.
>     * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement 
> by sending
>       CliehtHello message to 0x2FC0 port of AC.
>     * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that 
> prior WTP session
>       information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will assume that 
> most likely WTP
>       got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset  
> (state=Discovery) WTP
>       session information.  Ultimately, AC would continue 
> with DTLS session
>       establishment by processing ClientHello message.
> Remark: No keepalive type timer expiry happens. So WTP will 
> be up in NO time.

I disagree with this, but see the similar state change comment below.
> 
> Common Port Apporach (Proactive implementation):
>     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
Again, the AC thinks that the WTP already has a DTLS session setup. So
how does it know whether this is a discovery packet or the beginning of
the DTLS session. Clearly, stating that the DTLS SA table entry consists
of both the WTP's IP address and UDP Port number, and requiring that the
WTP use a different source port across reboots resolves some issues. We
are still down to the point where we need to be able to clearly identify
the discovery packets from the DTLS packets.

>     * AC will try finding out if prior session information 
> for the WTP exists
>       or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will assume that 
> most likely WTP
>       got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset 
> (state=Discovery) WTP
>       session information. Ultimately, AC would do discovery reply.

This I disagree with, because it causes the state to be reset without
any cryptographic proof that the WTP sending the packets is in fact the
right one. I think we would need the DTLS session to be established (or
at least the WTP be properly authenticated) prior to reseting any state.

>     * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement 
> by sending
>       CliehtHello message to 0x2FBF port of AC.
>     * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FBF and finds out that 
> prior WTP session
>       information exists (with FSM=Discovery), it would 
> continue with DTLS
>       session establishment process.
> Remark: No keepalive type timer expiry happens. So WTP will 
> be up in NO time.
> 
> 
> Situation 2b: A fully functional (in Capwap Run State) WTP 
> gets rebooted
>               accidently, and once it is up, it starts 
> sending non-DTLS type
>               Discovery packet again to an AC.
> Seperate Port Approach (Reactive implementation):
>     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
>     * it would do discovery reply.
>     * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement 
> by sending
>       CliehtHello message to 0x2FC0 port of AC.
>     * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that 
> prior WTP session
>       information exists (with FSM=Run), AC would simply discard the
>       clientHello packet. And would wait for the keepalive 
> timer to expire for
>       the WTP session under consideration. Once the timer is 
> expired, WTP
>       session information will be deleted, bringing AC in 
> sync with WTP.
>       Ultimately AC will start processing clientHello packets 
> to carry on with
>       DTLS session establishment.
> Remark: WTP UP will be in close to keepalive timer value time.
> 
> Common Port Apporach (Reactive implementation):
>     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
>     * AC will try finding out if prior session information 
> for the WTP exists
>       or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will simply drop 
> the incoming
>       discovery pacekt and wait for the keepalive timer to 
> expire for the WTP
>       session under consideration. Once the timer is expired, 
> AC's FSM will be
>       in sync with WTP. From this point onwards, AC will 
> start processing
>       discovery packets followed by DTLS session establishment.
> Remark: WTP UP will be in close to keepalive timer value time

Neither one of situation 2b is acceptable, IMHO. There is no need to
impose a delay in the DTLS setup. If we properly ensure that
authentication occurs prior to flushing of the state in situation 2a,
then I think we have a functional protocol.

> 
> 
> Situation 3: There is one fully functional legitimate WTP 
> providing WLAN
>              services and is Capwap controlled by an AC. An 
> illegal WTP
>              somehow gets access to the WTP/AC's networks and 
> can snoop
>              packets from the wire. In such situation, it can 
> snoop legitimate
>              WTP's IP address and start sending discovery 
> request to the AC
>              on 0x2FBF. This is a sort of DoS attack situation.
> Seperate Port Approach (Proactive implementation):
>     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
>     * it would do discovery reply.
>     * LETS NOT WORRY ABOUT LEGITIMATE WTP'S REACTION
>       TO DISCOVERY REPLY.
>     * Illegal WTP in turn would start the DTLS session 
> establishement by
>       sending CliehtHello message (and fake IP address) to 
> 0x2FC0 port of AC.
>     * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that 
> prior WTP session
>       information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will assume that 
> most likely WTP
>       got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset  
> (state=Discovery) WTP
>       session information.  Ultimately, AC would continue 
> with DTLS session
>       establishment by processing ClientHello message. But 
> most likely the
>       illegal WTP may not be having proper certificates etc, so its
>       authentication will fail ultimately with AC.
> Remark: DoS attack was SUCCESSFUL. A legitimate WTP's session 
> was brought
>         down by an illegal WTP.

> 
> Common Port Apporach (Proactive implementation):
>     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
>     * AC will try finding out if prior session information 
> for the WTP exists
>       or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will assume that 
> most likely WTP
>       got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset 
> (state=Discovery) WTP
>       session information. Ultimately, AC would do discovery reply.
>     * LETS NOT WORRY ABOUT LEGITIMATE WTP'S REACTION
>       TO DISCOVERY REPLY.
>     * Illegal WTP in turn would start the DTLS session 
> establishement by
>       sending CliehtHello message to 0x2FBF port of AC.
>     * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FBF and finds out that 
> prior WTP session
>       information exists (with FSM=Discovery), it would 
> continue with DTLS
>       session establishment process. But most likely the 
> illegal WTP may not
>       be having proper certificates etc, so its 
> authentication will fail
>       ultimately with AC.
> Remark: DoS attack was SUCCESSFUL. A legitimate WTP's session 
> was brought
>         down by an illegal WTP.

That's only because of a flaw in the logic in situation 2a. Requiring
that the DTLS session be established prior to reseting state does not
create the vulnerability you describe here. That said, I think there's
also another fundamental problem with this situation. You assume that
the AC identifies the WTP simply through its IP address, which I believe
is incorrect. The means by which the AC should be identifying the WTP is
through its credentials. Consider the following two cases:
1) WYP reboots and performs a DHCP and gets a new IP Address. In this
case, if the AC were to simply use the source IP address, and not the
DTLS credentials, it would end up thinking it had two separate WTPs
connected, when in fact only one exists. Surely, the AC would eventually
time out the old IP address, but I don't see any real benefits in this.
Tying the identity to the WTPs credentials would require the AC to
perform a credentials lookup when the new DTLS session was being
established, and once the session was successfully setup, would cause
the old DTLS (and associated CAPWAP state) to be flushed.
2. WTP loses power, and at the same time another WTP reboots. The second
WTP ends up getting the IP address of the WTP that had lost power.
Again, if the AC were to simply use the IP address (and not DTLS
credentials), then it would improperly assume that the new WTP was in
the fact the old one, and flush the wrong DTLS (and WTP CAPWAP state).

> 
> 
> Situation 4: There is one fully functional legitimate WTP 
> providing WLAN
>              services and is Capwap controlled by an AC. An 
> illegal WTP
>              somehow gets access to the WTP/AC's networks and 
> can snoop
>              packets from the wire. In such situation, it can 
> snoop legitimate
>              WTP's IP address and start sending discovery 
> request to the AC on
>              0x2FBF. This is a sort of DoS attack situation.
> Seperate Port Approach (Reactive implementation):
>     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
>     * it would do discovery reply.
>     * LETS NOT WORRY ABOUT LEGITIMATE WTP'S REACTION TO 
> DISCOVERY REPLY.
>     * Illegal WTP in turn would start the DTLS session 
> establishement by
>       sending CliehtHello message (and fake IP address) to 
> 0x2FC0 port of AC.
>     * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that 
> prior WTP session
>       information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will keep 
> dropping the clientHello
>       packet coming from duplicate (illegal) WTP. Assuming 
> Capwap Keepalive
>       messages continue to come to AC, legitimate WTP's 
> session would remain
>       intact.
> Remark: DoS attack was NOT SUCCESSFUL.
> 
> Common Port Apporach (Reactive implementation):
>     * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port
>     * AC will try finding out if prior session information 
> for the WTP exists
>       or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will simply drop 
> the incoming
>       discovery pacekt coming from duplicate (& illegal) WTP. 
> Assuming Capwap
>       Keepalive messages continue to come to AC, legitimate 
> WTP's session
>       would remain intact.
> Remark: DoS attack was NOT successful.

True, but at a cost. Again, requiring that state changes only occur once
the DTLS session is established eliminates all of these attacks, without
any time tax.

> 
> 
> Conclusion: Common Port approach behaves nearly same as Seperate port
>                   approach be it normal functioning or DoS 
> attack situation.

While I believe the tweaks I described above are required, I do
generally agree that either alternative are equivalent (from a
vulnerability standpoint).

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>,
	"Behcet Sarikaya" <sarikaya@ieee.org>
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I agree, but that doesn't mean that we should be dillatory and not fix
something in the protocol that is known to be broken in supporting an
upcoming ammendment. This is not the case with 802.11r, but just wanted
to provide my interpretation of the process..
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 1:02 AM
	To: Behcet Sarikaya
	Cc: capwap
	Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
=09
=09
	All,
=09
	I believe that we previously agreed that the
	initial CAPWAP specification(s) will support 802.11 capabilities
through
	those defined in  802.11-REVma, expected to be approved in Dec
06, and that
	unapproved amendments including .11k, .11r, .11n etc would be
dealt with
	in a future version.=20
=09
	Thus  802.11r support in CAPWAP, the discussion of which is very
interesting,
	is not in scope for the current CAPWAP specifications under
development.
=09
	Thanks,
=09
	Dorothy
=09
=09
	On 10/25/06, Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com> wrote:=20

		Comments inline.
	=09
	=09
		----- Original Message ----
		From: Charles Clancy <clancy@cs.umd.edu>
		To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
		Cc: Behcet Sarikaya < sarikaya@ieee.org
<mailto:sarikaya@ieee.org> >; capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
		Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 11:00:38 AM
		Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
	=09
	=09
		Unless PMK-R1s are preemptively distributed to WTPs to
which a STA might
		roam (neighbor graphs, anyone?), you'll still have the
WTP-AC latency for=20
		the WTP to request a PMK-R1 from the AC (R0KH).  This
would be about equal
		to the latency of having the AC validating Association
Request packets.
	=09
		=3D=3D>PMK-R1 is sent during Authenticate req/resp exchange,
so no effect on ReassReq/Resp latency.
	=09
		Does 11r let you proactively distribute PMK-R1s?  I
don't see any
		references in D3... all I see is the reactive
distribution protocol.=20
		=3D=3D>I think it is possible but the key distribution
protocol is more advantageous because you do not distribute keys to WTPs
that may never need to use such a key.
	=09
	=09
		My understanding is that one of the reasons 11r is
faster is because keys
		can be *reactively* transfered directly between APs
without having to go
		through the AAA server.  Unfortunately our main security
association is=20
		with the AC, not the WTP, and inter-WTP communications
is bad, so
		everything will have to go through the AC.
	=09
		=3D=3D>No inter-WTP communications in CAPWAPRP.=20
	=09
	=09
		--=20
		t. charles clancy, ph.d.  <>  tcc@umd.edu  <>
www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy <http://www.cs.umd.edu/%7Eclancy>=20
	=09
		On Mon, October 23, 2006 10:28 am, Pat Calhoun
\(pacalhou\) wrote:
		> I agree with Charles - but I do believe there is a
single issue. In the
		> case of local MAC, the IEEE 802.11 binding states that
the WTP processes
		> the Association Request and then forwards it to the
AC. The AC can
		> override the decision made by the WTP by sending a
negative result
		> Association Response.
		>
		> When 802.11r, the local MAC WTP will not have the
cryptographic keys
		> necessary to validate the Association Request, so it
would *have* to
		> defer to the AC. The question is whether this is
acceptable as it does=20
		> change the timing of the Association round trip. One
alternative is to
		> push the PMK-R1 keys to the WTP to allow the WTP to
perform its own
		> authentication of the management frame.
		>
		> Pat Calhoun=20
		> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
		> Cisco Systems
		>
		>
		>
		>> -----Original Message-----
		>> From: Charles Clancy [mailto: clancy@cs.umd.edu
<mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu> ]
		>> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:27 PM
		>> To: Behcet Sarikaya
		>> Cc: capwap
		>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
		>>
		>> Behcet,
		>>=20
		>> > My proposal is to use the key distribution protocol
of
		>> 802.11r which
		>> > securely transports the keys.
		>> > Also no need for the context transfer which was
what I had in mind.=20
		>>
		>> My point is that we don't need to distribute PMK-R1
keys
		>> since all authenticator functionality will reside at
the AC
		>> regardless of the MAC splitting, so we therefore
don't need a=20
		>> new key distribution protocol at all.
		>>
		>> Here's how I envision an 11r handoff:
		>>
		>> STA            WTP1           WTP2              AC
		>> --------------------------------------------------
		>>
		>> Initial authentication (as CAPWAP does now):
		>>
		>> <--- assoc ----->
		>> <-------------- open authentication ------------->=20
		>> <----------------- 1X/EAP authentication -------->
		>>                (derives PMK-R0, PMK-R1)
		>> <--------------- four-way handshake ------------->
		>>                    (derives PTK)
		>>                 <---------- add mobile (PTK) -----
		>>
		>> fast handoff:
		>>
		>>                (AC and STA derive new PMK-R1')
		>> <------- FT / reassoc (PMK Name, MIC, etc) ------>
		>>                   (derives new PTK')
		>>                               <- add mobile (PTK')
		>>                 <---------- delete mobile --------
		>>
		>>
		>> > Can you spare your ideas why that would not work in
CAPWAP?
		>>
		>> I'm not sure to what you're referring.  Using the
		>> yet-to-be-defined 11r key distribution protocol
duplicates
		>> the add-mobile CAPWAP architecture for distributing
keying=20
		>> material.  Additionally, it violates the security
restriction
		>> that keys from the PMK-level in the keying hierarchy
MUST
		>> remain at the authenticator, which is the AC.
		>>
		>> > You're saying we only need the split MAC scenarios
that I=20
		>> have in the
		>> > draft.
		>>
		>> I'm saying that CAPWAP can support 11r without any
protocol
		>> changes.  The only changes I can envision being
necessary are
		>> perhaps capabilities flags indicating support for
11r, so ACs=20
		>> and WTPs know that each other supports 11r.  All the
11r
		>> protocol processing would be implemented at the AC.
The WTP
		>> would just have to know about the additional 802.11
messages,
		>> and know they should be forwarded to the AC.  WTPs
and ACs
		>> would also have to support AES-CMAC, which is defined
in 11r.=20
		>>
		>> --
		>> t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |
www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy <http://www.cs.umd.edu/%7Eclancy>=20
		>>
		>>
_________________________________________________________________
		>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options,
please visit:
		>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
		>>
		>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20
		>>
		>
	=09
=09
_________________________________________________________________
		To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options,
please visit:
		http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
	=09
		Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20
	=09


=09
_________________________________________________________________
		To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options,
please visit:
		http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
	=09
		Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20
	=09
	=09



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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2976" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D893374510-26102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
agree, but that doesn't mean that we should be dillatory and not fix =
something=20
in the protocol that is known to be broken in supporting an upcoming =
ammendment.=20
This is not the case with 802.11r, but just wanted to provide my =
interpretation=20
of the process..</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Dorothy Stanley=20
  [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 26, =
2006=20
  1:02 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Behcet Sarikaya<BR><B>Cc:</B> =
capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B>=20
  Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>All,<BR><BR>I believe that we previously agreed that =
the<BR>initial=20
  CAPWAP specification(s) will support 802.11 capabilities =
through<BR>those=20
  defined in&nbsp; 802.11-REVma, expected to be approved in Dec 06, and=20
  that<BR>unapproved amendments including .11k, .11r, .11n etc would be =
dealt=20
  with<BR>in a future version. <BR><BR>Thus&nbsp; 802.11r support in =
CAPWAP, the=20
  discussion of which is very interesting,<BR>is not in scope for the =
current=20
  CAPWAP specifications under =
development.<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR><BR>Dorothy<BR><BR>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 10/25/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Behcet=20
  Sarikaya</B> &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com">behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com</A>&gt;=
=20
  wrote:</SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
    <DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">Comments=20
    inline.<BR><BR>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman,new =
york,times,serif"><SPAN=20
    class=3Dq>----- Original Message ----<BR>From: Charles Clancy &lt;<A =

    onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu"=20
    target=3D_blank>clancy@cs.umd.edu</A>&gt;<BR></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3Dq>To: Pat=20
    Calhoun (pacalhou) &lt;<A=20
    onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com"=20
    target=3D_blank>pcalhoun@cisco.com</A>&gt;<BR>Cc: Behcet Sarikaya =
&lt;<A=20
    onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"mailto:sarikaya@ieee.org" target=3D_blank> =
sarikaya@ieee.org</A>&gt;;=20
    capwap &lt;<A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com"=20
    target=3D_blank>capwap@frascone.com</A>&gt;<BR>Sent: Monday, October =
23, 2006=20
    11:00:38 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for =
802.11r<BR><BR></SPAN>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3Dq>Unless PMK-R1s are preemptively distributed to =
WTPs to=20
    which a STA might<BR>roam (neighbor graphs, anyone?), you'll still =
have the=20
    WTP-AC latency for <BR>the WTP to request a PMK-R1 from the AC=20
    (R0KH).&nbsp;&nbsp;This would be about equal<BR>to the latency of =
having the=20
    AC validating Association Request =
packets.<BR><BR></SPAN>=3D=3D&gt;PMK-R1 is=20
    sent during Authenticate req/resp exchange, so no effect on =
ReassReq/Resp=20
    latency.<SPAN class=3Dq><BR><BR>Does 11r let you proactively =
distribute=20
    PMK-R1s?&nbsp;&nbsp;I don't see any<BR>references in D3... all I see =
is the=20
    reactive distribution protocol. <BR></SPAN>=3D=3D&gt;I think it is =
possible but=20
    the key distribution protocol is more advantageous because you do =
not=20
    distribute keys to WTPs that may never need to use such a key.<SPAN=20
    class=3Dq><BR><BR><BR>My understanding is that one of the reasons =
11r is=20
    faster is because keys<BR>can be *reactively* transfered directly =
between=20
    APs without having to go<BR>through the AAA =
server.&nbsp;&nbsp;Unfortunately=20
    our main security association is <BR>with the AC, not the WTP, and =
inter-WTP=20
    communications is bad, so<BR>everything will have to go through the=20
    AC.<BR><BR></SPAN>=3D=3D&gt;No inter-WTP communications in CAPWAPRP.
    <DIV><SPAN class=3De id=3Dq_10e82e1fe9fa7d80_10><BR><BR>-- <BR>t. =
charles=20
    clancy, ph.d.&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;<A=20
    onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"mailto:tcc@umd.edu"=20
    target=3D_blank>tcc@umd.edu</A>&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;<A=20
    onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"http://www.cs.umd.edu/%7Eclancy" target=3D_blank>=20
    www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy</A><BR><BR>On Mon, October 23, 2006 10:28 am, =
Pat=20
    Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote:<BR>&gt; I agree with Charles - but I do =
believe=20
    there is a single issue. In the<BR>&gt; case of local MAC, the IEEE =
802.11=20
    binding states that the WTP processes<BR>&gt; the Association =
Request and=20
    then forwards it to the AC. The AC can<BR>&gt; override the decision =
made by=20
    the WTP by sending a negative result<BR>&gt; Association=20
    Response.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; When 802.11r, the local MAC WTP will not =
have the=20
    cryptographic keys<BR>&gt; necessary to validate the Association =
Request, so=20
    it would *have* to<BR>&gt; defer to the AC. The question is whether =
this is=20
    acceptable as it does <BR>&gt; change the timing of the Association =
round=20
    trip. One alternative is to<BR>&gt; push the PMK-R1 keys to the WTP =
to allow=20
    the WTP to perform its own<BR>&gt; authentication of the management=20
    frame.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Pat Calhoun <BR>&gt; CTO, Wireless Networking =

    Business Unit<BR>&gt; Cisco =
Systems<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;=20
    -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt;&gt; From: Charles Clancy =
[mailto:<A=20
    onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu" target=3D_blank>=20
    clancy@cs.umd.edu</A>]<BR>&gt;&gt; Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 =
12:27=20
    PM<BR>&gt;&gt; To: Behcet Sarikaya<BR>&gt;&gt; Cc: =
capwap<BR>&gt;&gt;=20
    Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;=20
    Behcet,<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; My proposal is to use the key=20
    distribution protocol of<BR>&gt;&gt; 802.11r which<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; =
securely=20
    transports the keys.<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; Also no need for the context =
transfer=20
    which was what I had in mind. <BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; My point is =
that we=20
    don't need to distribute PMK-R1 keys<BR>&gt;&gt; since all =
authenticator=20
    functionality will reside at the AC<BR>&gt;&gt; regardless of the =
MAC=20
    splitting, so we therefore don't need a <BR>&gt;&gt; new key =
distribution=20
    protocol at all.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Here's how I envision an =
11r=20
    handoff:<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;=20
    =
STA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;WTP1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    =
WTP2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;AC<BR>&gt;&gt;=20
    =
--------------------------------------------------<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt=
;=20
    Initial authentication (as CAPWAP does now):<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; =
&lt;---=20
    assoc -----&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &lt;-------------- open authentication=20
    -------------&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; &lt;----------------- 1X/EAP =
authentication=20
    =
--------&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(derives=20
    PMK-R0, PMK-R1)<BR>&gt;&gt; &lt;--------------- four-way handshake=20
    =
-------------&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;(derives=20
    =
PTK)<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    &lt;---------- add mobile (PTK) -----<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; fast=20
    =
handoff:<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(AC=20
    and STA derive new PMK-R1')<BR>&gt;&gt; &lt;------- FT / reassoc =
(PMK Name,=20
    MIC, etc)=20
    =
------&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    (derives new=20
    =
PTK')<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    &lt;- add mobile=20
    =
(PTK')<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    &lt;---------- delete mobile =
--------<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;=20
    &gt; Can you spare your ideas why that would not work in=20
    CAPWAP?<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; I'm not sure to what you're=20
    referring.&nbsp;&nbsp;Using the<BR>&gt;&gt; yet-to-be-defined 11r =
key=20
    distribution protocol duplicates<BR>&gt;&gt; the add-mobile CAPWAP=20
    architecture for distributing keying <BR>&gt;&gt;=20
    material.&nbsp;&nbsp;Additionally, it violates the security=20
    restriction<BR>&gt;&gt; that keys from the PMK-level in the keying =
hierarchy=20
    MUST<BR>&gt;&gt; remain at the authenticator, which is the=20
    AC.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; You're saying we only need the =
split MAC=20
    scenarios that I <BR>&gt;&gt; have in the<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;=20
    draft.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; I'm saying that CAPWAP can support =
11r=20
    without any protocol<BR>&gt;&gt; changes.&nbsp;&nbsp;The only =
changes I can=20
    envision being necessary are<BR>&gt;&gt; perhaps capabilities flags=20
    indicating support for 11r, so ACs <BR>&gt;&gt; and WTPs know that =
each=20
    other supports 11r.&nbsp;&nbsp;All the 11r<BR>&gt;&gt; protocol =
processing=20
    would be implemented at the AC.&nbsp;&nbsp;The WTP<BR>&gt;&gt; would =
just=20
    have to know about the additional 802.11 messages,<BR>&gt;&gt; and =
know they=20
    should be forwarded to the AC.&nbsp;&nbsp;WTPs and ACs<BR>&gt;&gt; =
would=20
    also have to support AES-CMAC, which is defined in 11r.=20
    <BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; --<BR>&gt;&gt; t. charles clancy,=20
    ph.d.&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;<A=20
    onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"mailto:tcc@umd.edu"=20
    target=3D_blank>tcc@umd.edu</A>&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;<A=20
    onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"http://www.cs.umd.edu/%7Eclancy" target=3D_blank>=20
    www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy</A><BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;=20
    =
_________________________________________________________________<BR>&gt;=
&gt;=20
    To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please=20
    visit:<BR>&gt;&gt; <A onclick=3D"return =
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    Archives: <A onclick=3D"return =
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From: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" <ssmitha@cisco.com>
To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>,
	"capwap" <capwap@frascone.com>
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Pat,

I think we should have this additional state and have the following
transitions on the AC and WTP.

Discovery to "DTLS Establishment":

WTP: Occurs when WTP sends DTLSStart command after figuring out which AC
to join.
AC: Nop

"DTLS Establishment" to Join:
WTP: Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. 
WTP sends a Join Request and starts the WaitJoin timer.
AC:Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. 
AC allocates state for this WTP and starts the WaitJoin timer.

Thanks
Smitha 
-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) 
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:14 PM
To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); 'capwap'
Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state

I see your point. Clearly, some interim CAPWAP state is needed between
idle and join, which we could call "DTLS Establishment".

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)
> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 6:37 PM
> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); 'capwap'
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state
> 
> Pat,
> 
> The spec talks about transitioning to join state from idle - (Idle to 
> Join (aa)). This would make it necessary for CAPWAP to know of the 
> various DTLS packets are being received during handshake. Why is it 
> necessary to have a "join ready" state?
> 
> Thanks
> Smitha
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:26 PM
> To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); 'capwap'
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state
> 
> I'm not so sure. If that were the case we would need a "join ready" 
> state. We clearly need to transition to a new
> (non-DTLS) state when the DTLS channel is open.
> 
> PatC
> 
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: 	Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)
> Sent:	Tuesday, October 24, 2006 08:52 AM Pacific Standard Time
> To:	capwap
> Subject:	[Capwap] transition to join state
> 
> All,
>  
> The spec talks about AC transitioning to Join state on receiving DTLS 
> Client Hello with a valid cookie. Should this really be the case?
> The AC should transition to Join state on receiving a Join Request.
>  
> Thanks
> Smitha
>  
> 
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From: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" <ssmitha@cisco.com>
To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>,
	"capwap" <capwap@frascone.com>
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One correction to the transitions. 

Discovery to "DTLS Establishment":

WTP: Occurs when WTP sends DTLSStart command after figuring out which AC
to join.
AC: Nop

"DTLS Establishment" to Join:
WTP: Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. 
WTP sends a Join Request and starts the WaitJoin timer.
AC: Nop

Idle to "DTLS Establishment"
WTP: Nop
AC:Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. 
AC allocates state for this WTP and starts the WaitJoin timer.

Thanks
Smitha

-----Original Message-----
From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) 
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:53 PM
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); 'capwap'
Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state

Pat,

I think we should have this additional state and have the following
transitions on the AC and WTP.

Discovery to "DTLS Establishment":

WTP: Occurs when WTP sends DTLSStart command after figuring out which AC
to join.
AC: Nop

"DTLS Establishment" to Join:
WTP: Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. 
WTP sends a Join Request and starts the WaitJoin timer.
AC:Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. 
AC allocates state for this WTP and starts the WaitJoin timer.

Thanks
Smitha
-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:14 PM
To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); 'capwap'
Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state

I see your point. Clearly, some interim CAPWAP state is needed between
idle and join, which we could call "DTLS Establishment".

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)
> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 6:37 PM
> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); 'capwap'
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state
> 
> Pat,
> 
> The spec talks about transitioning to join state from idle - (Idle to 
> Join (aa)). This would make it necessary for CAPWAP to know of the 
> various DTLS packets are being received during handshake. Why is it 
> necessary to have a "join ready" state?
> 
> Thanks
> Smitha
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:26 PM
> To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); 'capwap'
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state
> 
> I'm not so sure. If that were the case we would need a "join ready" 
> state. We clearly need to transition to a new
> (non-DTLS) state when the DTLS channel is open.
> 
> PatC
> 
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: 	Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)
> Sent:	Tuesday, October 24, 2006 08:52 AM Pacific Standard Time
> To:	capwap
> Subject:	[Capwap] transition to join state
> 
> All,
>  
> The spec talks about AC transitioning to Join state on receiving DTLS 
> Client Hello with a valid cookie. Should this really be the case?
> The AC should transition to Join state on receiving a Join Request.
>  
> Thanks
> Smitha
>  
> 
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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 08:12:55 2006
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To: Pat Calhoun ((pacalhou)) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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Hi Pat,

On Oct 26, 2006, at 6:44 AM, Pat Calhoun ((pacalhou)) wrote:
> ok... no real objections on including an interim (short) tag to
> represent the packet type. If we are to go down this path, I would
> prefer that we maintain consistency across both the control and data
> plane, and include the same header on both UDP ports. This way, if a
> DTLS session is being used to secure the data plane, the (relatively)
> same pre-parsing and security validation logic can be used.

That works for me, too

The main reason I had not suggested including the tag on both control  
and data packets was that I was concerned about lowering the MTU of  
the link for little benefit.  Is there some reason why that isn't a  
concern?

Margaret


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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 05:02:37 -0700
From: Scott G Kelly <scott@hyperthought.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
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I think what Abhijit suggested can be accomplished without exposing the 
session id itself. The functionality we're after is really a (QoS) 
tunnel id, so we know what dtls session to use for the given source. One 
solution is to plumb an ACL and rely on the source port, but this value 
could also be included in the type header:

+------------+------------+------------+------------+
| version    | tunnel id  |          type           |
+------------+------------+------------+------------+

It could be less than 8 bits - this is merely illustrative. This is 
equivalent to the 'channel id' I suggested concatenating with the 
sessionID earlier, but this approach exposes it and uses it for dtls 
session selection (and the sessionID would still be in the protected 
portion, and used to bind control/data channels).

The source port can also be used, but with multiple WTPs going through a 
NAT, the approach above doesn't chew up (potentially) 8+ ports per WTP 
in the NAT's binding table (and fwiw, there's no corresponding chance of 
being 'bumped' from the binding table on a heavily loaded NAT).


Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
> Could you explain why you believe the sessionID should not be protected? 
> Seems like the IP address and UDP port are sufficient to distinguish the 
> WTP (for encrypted data plane, this would be known after the first 
> packet is received.
> 
> PatC
> 
>  -----Original Message-----
> From:   Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com]
> Sent:   Wednesday, October 25, 2006 11:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
> To:     Puneet Agarwal; Margaret Wasserman; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); 
> Scott G. Kelly
> Cc:     capwap
> Subject:        RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
> 
> Folks,
> I like the solution below, but I'd go one step further.
> We should just have a single CAPWAP packet format.
> The shim header should be present in both capwap
> control and data packets, and  should have a
> field to indicate  encrypted/unencrypted as well
> as a type/sessionId field.
> 
> For packets arriving  on either control or data port,
> the encrypted/unencrypted field indicates whether
> the payload is DTLS encrypted.
> 
> For DTLS encrypted packets arriving on the data port,
> the type/sessionId field  indicates the QoS level in
> order to avoid antireplay issues.
> 
> This approach is simple, clean and addresses all the
> concerns raised so far on this issue:
> 
> 1.  Uses separate control and data UDP ports to steer packets
>       through legacy devices with different levels of QoS
> 2.  Is able to distinguish between encrypted and unencrypted packets
>      in the CAPWAP payload.
> 3.  Is able to support multiple QoS levels if the data channel is
>      DTLS encrypted.
> 
> I believe this is similar to the proposal that Scott
> presented in one of his earlier emails.
> 
> Regards,
> Abhijit
> ________________________________
> 
> From: Puneet Agarwal [mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com]
> Sent: Wed 10/25/2006 11:17 PM
> To: Margaret Wasserman; Pat Calhoun
> Cc: Hasan Raza; capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Margaret,
> 
> I am OK with your 2 port solution (with shim header for capwap control
> only).
> 
> To summarize, it seems that you are proposing that there be two UDP
> ports reserved for CAPWAP:
> 
> A) CAPWAP Control Port: All discovery and capwap control messages flow
> on this UDP port. There is a new shim (control mux) header added between
> the UDP Header and the following header (where the following header
> could be DTLS if encrypted or CAPWAP Hdr if non-encrypted ). The control
> mux would specify if the packet is DTLS encrypted or not. I didn't want
> to use the "Control Header" for the new shim as section 4 already talks
> about a "Control Header".
> 
> B) CAPWAP Data Port: All CAPWAP Data messages flow on this UDP port. It
> is a property of the UDP tunnel whether the payload in encrypted or not.
> If the tunnel is encrypted, then a DTLS header follows the UDP Header.
> If the tunnel is not encrypted, then a CAPWAP Header follows the UDP
> Header. Note that there is no "control mux" after the UDP header.
> 
> Is the above interpretation correct?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -Puneet
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:09 AM
> To: Pat Calhoun
> Cc: Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; Puneet Agarwal; capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Just commenting as an individual contributor...
> 
> I prefer the intermediate header approach to the third port approach,
> because I think it is a cleaner representation of what is actually
> happening.
> 
> Different ports are used to reach different end points (different
> systems or different processes running on the same system).  In CAPWAP,
> we have one port to reach the data end-point and another to reach the
> control end-point, because we think there are cases when the data and
> control end-points may be different processes or run on different
> systems.  That makes sense to me.
> 
> However, when we are talking about DTLS-encrypted and unencrypted
> control packets, we aren't really talking about two different end-
> points.  We are talking about a single control application that needs to
> decide whether to treat each packet it received as unencrypted or as
> DTLS-encrypted, in which case it needs to be handed to the DTLS engine
> for decryption.  If you think about it that way, I think it would be
> better for the control application to receive a packet that starts with
> a short header that indicates whether this packet is DTLS- encrypted or
> unencrypted.  If the packet is unencrypted, the control application
> processes it directly (or ignores the packet if it isn't a discovery
> packet), and if it is DTLS-encrypted, the control application strips off
> the header and send the packet to the DTLS engine for decryption.  This
> type of header might also allow for later expansion if the security
> world evolves and a better security mechanism for CAPWAP's purposes
> emerges.
> 
> So, I would prefer that we add a short header after the UDP header (a
> CAPWAP control header?) that indicates the type of the encapsulated
> packet (DTLS-encrypted or unencrypted).  I think 4 bytes would be long
> enough for this header, and that would maintain 32-bit alignment.  IMO,
> it should contain 2 fields -- a one byte version number (0x01) and a
> three-byte type field.  At this point, only two types would be defined.
> 
> I do not have a major technical objection to the third port option, I
> just think it is less clean from an architectural standpoint.
> 
> I would rather strenuously object to the proposed approaches that
> involve zeroing out the DTLS header or running a packet through DTLS and
> then treating it as unencrypted if that fails, etc.
> 
> Margaret
> 
> 
> On Oct 25, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
> 
>  > Not pushing for the hack. I've stated I do not object to a third UDP
>  > port, but provided an alternative should IANA refuse to give it to us.
>  >
>  > Pat Calhoun
>  > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >> -----Original Message-----
>  >> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com]
>  >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM
>  >> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com
>  >> Cc: capwap
>  >> Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
>  >>
>  >> "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" wrote:
>  >>
>  >>> Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a
>  >>> packet with  'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which
>  >> is of lengh 'y'.
>  >>
>  >> ...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right?
>  >> I'm having a really hard time understanding why you're
>  >> pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. We
>  >> are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do it
>  >> right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we don't
>  >> adopt this hack?
>  >>
>  >> Scott
>  >>
>  > _________________________________________________________________
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Hi Puneet,

> To summarize, it seems that you are proposing that there be two UDP
> ports reserved for CAPWAP:
>
> A) CAPWAP Control Port: All discovery and capwap control messages flow
> on this UDP port. There is a new shim (control mux) header added  
> between
> the UDP Header and the following header (where the following header
> could be DTLS if encrypted or CAPWAP Hdr if non-encrypted ). The  
> control
> mux would specify if the packet is DTLS encrypted or not. I didn't  
> want
> to use the "Control Header" for the new shim as section 4 already  
> talks
> about a "Control Header".
>
> B) CAPWAP Data Port: All CAPWAP Data messages flow on this UDP  
> port. It
> is a property of the UDP tunnel whether the payload in encrypted or  
> not.
> If the tunnel is encrypted, then a DTLS header follows the UDP Header.
> If the tunnel is not encrypted, then a CAPWAP Header follows the UDP
> Header. Note that there is no "control mux" after the UDP header.
>
> Is the above interpretation correct?

Yes, this interpretation is correct.  And, I agree with you that we  
shouldn't
call the new header a "control header", as that would be ambiguous.

Thanks,
Margaret

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If you add this state, you must also add a WaitDTLS timer.

Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) wrote:
> One correction to the transitions. 
> 
> Discovery to "DTLS Establishment":
> 
> WTP: Occurs when WTP sends DTLSStart command after figuring out which AC
> to join.
> AC: Nop
> 
> "DTLS Establishment" to Join:
> WTP: Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. 
> WTP sends a Join Request and starts the WaitJoin timer.
> AC: Nop
> 
> Idle to "DTLS Establishment"
> WTP: Nop
> AC:Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. 
> AC allocates state for this WTP and starts the WaitJoin timer.
> 
> Thanks
> Smitha
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) 
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:53 PM
> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); 'capwap'
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state
> 
> Pat,
> 
> I think we should have this additional state and have the following
> transitions on the AC and WTP.
> 
> Discovery to "DTLS Establishment":
> 
> WTP: Occurs when WTP sends DTLSStart command after figuring out which AC
> to join.
> AC: Nop
> 
> "DTLS Establishment" to Join:
> WTP: Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. 
> WTP sends a Join Request and starts the WaitJoin timer.
> AC:Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. 
> AC allocates state for this WTP and starts the WaitJoin timer.
> 
> Thanks
> Smitha
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:14 PM
> To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); 'capwap'
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state
> 
> I see your point. Clearly, some interim CAPWAP state is needed between
> idle and join, which we could call "DTLS Establishment".
> 
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
> 
>  
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 6:37 PM
>> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); 'capwap'
>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state
>>
>> Pat,
>>
>> The spec talks about transitioning to join state from idle - (Idle to 
>> Join (aa)). This would make it necessary for CAPWAP to know of the 
>> various DTLS packets are being received during handshake. Why is it 
>> necessary to have a "join ready" state?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Smitha
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:26 PM
>> To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); 'capwap'
>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state
>>
>> I'm not so sure. If that were the case we would need a "join ready" 
>> state. We clearly need to transition to a new
>> (non-DTLS) state when the DTLS channel is open.
>>
>> PatC
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>> From: 	Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)
>> Sent:	Tuesday, October 24, 2006 08:52 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> To:	capwap
>> Subject:	[Capwap] transition to join state
>>
>> All,
>>  
>> The spec talks about AC transitioning to Join state on receiving DTLS 
>> Client Hello with a valid cookie. Should this really be the case?
>> The AC should transition to Join state on receiving a Join Request.
>>  
>> Thanks
>> Smitha
>>  
>>
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I doubt 1 byte (or 4 if we want alignment) will make that much of a
difference over the network. I think consistency of packet formats
across both planes will simplify product development, but more
importantly, troubleshooting.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:01 AM
> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> Cc: Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com; capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
> 
> 
> Hi Pat,
> 
> On Oct 26, 2006, at 6:44 AM, Pat Calhoun ((pacalhou)) wrote:
> > ok... no real objections on including an interim (short) tag to 
> > represent the packet type. If we are to go down this path, I would 
> > prefer that we maintain consistency across both the control 
> and data 
> > plane, and include the same header on both UDP ports. This 
> way, if a 
> > DTLS session is being used to secure the data plane, the 
> (relatively) 
> > same pre-parsing and security validation logic can be used.
> 
> That works for me, too
> 
> The main reason I had not suggested including the tag on both 
> control and data packets was that I was concerned about 
> lowering the MTU of the link for little benefit.  Is there 
> some reason why that isn't a concern?
> 
> Margaret
> 
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On Thu, 2006-10-26 at 03:44 -0700, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
> ok... no real objections on including an interim (short) tag to
> represent the packet type. If we are to go down this path, I would
> prefer that we maintain consistency across both the control and data
> plane, and include the same header on both UDP ports. This way, if a
> DTLS session is being used to secure the data plane, the (relatively)
> same pre-parsing and security validation logic can be used.
Usually data plane is implemented in hardware and control plane in
software. Though a bit tricky, but bump in the stack is easier to
implement in software than hardware. Changing fast path logic in
hardware just for capwap packets may not be worth an effort if the extra
type header field does not serve any purpose. Since it is more or less
decided that DTLS is enabled or disabled on data plane is just based on
a binary configuration at AC, there does not seem to be any purpose of
extra type header field for data packets. May be we should look into
issue #221.

Hasan
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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Have you considered that some hardware may be providing an interface to
hardware DTLS logic prior to forking off to data or control plane
processing?

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hasan Raza [mailto:hasan@sinett.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 6:33 AM
> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> Cc: Margaret Wasserman; Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com; capwap
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
> 
> On Thu, 2006-10-26 at 03:44 -0700, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
> > ok... no real objections on including an interim (short) tag to 
> > represent the packet type. If we are to go down this path, I would 
> > prefer that we maintain consistency across both the control 
> and data 
> > plane, and include the same header on both UDP ports. This 
> way, if a 
> > DTLS session is being used to secure the data plane, the 
> (relatively) 
> > same pre-parsing and security validation logic can be used.
> Usually data plane is implemented in hardware and control 
> plane in software. Though a bit tricky, but bump in the stack 
> is easier to implement in software than hardware. Changing 
> fast path logic in hardware just for capwap packets may not 
> be worth an effort if the extra type header field does not 
> serve any purpose. Since it is more or less decided that DTLS 
> is enabled or disabled on data plane is just based on a 
> binary configuration at AC, there does not seem to be any 
> purpose of extra type header field for data packets. May be 
> we should look into issue #221.
> 
> Hasan
> 
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In that case, the capwap control port would be different from capwap
data port in a manner as any other non-capwap udp port which may need
DTLS processing. The type header stripping logic would be anyway
implemented on the port basis as an special case for capwap port(s). So
why this special case should be there for two ports if the second port
does not require it?

Hasan

On Thu, 2006-10-26 at 07:05 -0700, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
> Have you considered that some hardware may be providing an interface to
> hardware DTLS logic prior to forking off to data or control plane
> processing?
> 
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
> 
>  
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Hasan Raza [mailto:hasan@sinett.com] 
> > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 6:33 AM
> > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> > Cc: Margaret Wasserman; Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com; capwap
> > Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
> > 
> > On Thu, 2006-10-26 at 03:44 -0700, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
> > > ok... no real objections on including an interim (short) tag to 
> > > represent the packet type. If we are to go down this path, I would 
> > > prefer that we maintain consistency across both the control 
> > and data 
> > > plane, and include the same header on both UDP ports. This 
> > way, if a 
> > > DTLS session is being used to secure the data plane, the 
> > (relatively) 
> > > same pre-parsing and security validation logic can be used.
> > Usually data plane is implemented in hardware and control 
> > plane in software. Though a bit tricky, but bump in the stack 
> > is easier to implement in software than hardware. Changing 
> > fast path logic in hardware just for capwap packets may not 
> > be worth an effort if the extra type header field does not 
> > serve any purpose. Since it is more or less decided that DTLS 
> > is enabled or disabled on data plane is just based on a 
> > binary configuration at AC, there does not seem to be any 
> > purpose of extra type header field for data packets. May be 
> > we should look into issue #221.
> > 
> > Hasan
> > 
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But I think the assumption that encryption on the data port is binary 
on/off is a little premature. I think that for any given WTP, it will be 
binary, but that for a given deployment, some WTPs could require data 
channel encryption while others do not.

Hasan Raza wrote:
> In that case, the capwap control port would be different from capwap
> data port in a manner as any other non-capwap udp port which may need
> DTLS processing. The type header stripping logic would be anyway
> implemented on the port basis as an special case for capwap port(s). So
> why this special case should be there for two ports if the second port
> does not require it?
> 
> Hasan
> 
> On Thu, 2006-10-26 at 07:05 -0700, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
>> Have you considered that some hardware may be providing an interface to
>> hardware DTLS logic prior to forking off to data or control plane
>> processing?
>>
>> Pat Calhoun
>> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
>> Cisco Systems
>>
>>  
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Hasan Raza [mailto:hasan@sinett.com] 
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 6:33 AM
>>> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
>>> Cc: Margaret Wasserman; Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com; capwap
>>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
>>>
>>> On Thu, 2006-10-26 at 03:44 -0700, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
>>>> ok... no real objections on including an interim (short) tag to 
>>>> represent the packet type. If we are to go down this path, I would 
>>>> prefer that we maintain consistency across both the control 
>>> and data 
>>>> plane, and include the same header on both UDP ports. This 
>>> way, if a 
>>>> DTLS session is being used to secure the data plane, the 
>>> (relatively) 
>>>> same pre-parsing and security validation logic can be used.
>>> Usually data plane is implemented in hardware and control 
>>> plane in software. Though a bit tricky, but bump in the stack 
>>> is easier to implement in software than hardware. Changing 
>>> fast path logic in hardware just for capwap packets may not 
>>> be worth an effort if the extra type header field does not 
>>> serve any purpose. Since it is more or less decided that DTLS 
>>> is enabled or disabled on data plane is just based on a 
>>> binary configuration at AC, there does not seem to be any 
>>> purpose of extra type header field for data packets. May be 
>>> we should look into issue #221.
>>>
>>> Hasan
>>>
> 
_________________________________________________________________
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Hi Scott,

On Oct 26, 2006, at 10:50 AM, Scott G Kelly wrote:
> But I think the assumption that encryption on the data port is binary
> on/off is a little premature. I think that for any given WTP, it  
> will be
> binary, but that for a given deployment, some WTPs could require data
> channel encryption while others do not.

Good point.  I'm now convinced (by this note and Pat's) that it would  
be best to include a short header on both the data and control  
channels to indicate whether the packet is a DTLS packet or an  
unencrypted packet.

Margaret

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 One other issue with this:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) [mailto:ssmitha@cisco.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:34 AM
> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state
> 
> One correction to the transitions. 
> 
> Discovery to "DTLS Establishment":
> 
> WTP: Occurs when WTP sends DTLSStart command after figuring 
> out which AC
> to join.
> AC: Nop
> 
> "DTLS Establishment" to Join:
> WTP: Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received 
> from DTLS. 
> WTP sends a Join Request and starts the WaitJoin timer.
> AC: Nop
> 
> Idle to "DTLS Establishment"
> WTP: Nop
> AC:Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. 
> AC allocates state for this WTP and starts the WaitJoin timer.

The AC needs to transition when it receives a DTLS ClientHello (with cookie) and set a timer (WaitDTLS).

--Scott

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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] transition to join state
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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Issue 226 created.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott G Kelly [mailto:scott@hyperthought.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:04 AM
> To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)
> Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state
> 
> If you add this state, you must also add a WaitDTLS timer.
> 
> Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) wrote:
> > One correction to the transitions. 
> > 
> > Discovery to "DTLS Establishment":
> > 
> > WTP: Occurs when WTP sends DTLSStart command after figuring 
> out which 
> > AC to join.
> > AC: Nop
> > 
> > "DTLS Establishment" to Join:
> > WTP: Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received 
> from DTLS. 
> > WTP sends a Join Request and starts the WaitJoin timer.
> > AC: Nop
> > 
> > Idle to "DTLS Establishment"
> > WTP: Nop
> > AC:Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received 
> from DTLS. 
> > AC allocates state for this WTP and starts the WaitJoin timer.
> > 
> > Thanks
> > Smitha
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)
> > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:53 PM
> > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); 'capwap'
> > Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state
> > 
> > Pat,
> > 
> > I think we should have this additional state and have the following 
> > transitions on the AC and WTP.
> > 
> > Discovery to "DTLS Establishment":
> > 
> > WTP: Occurs when WTP sends DTLSStart command after figuring 
> out which 
> > AC to join.
> > AC: Nop
> > 
> > "DTLS Establishment" to Join:
> > WTP: Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received 
> from DTLS. 
> > WTP sends a Join Request and starts the WaitJoin timer.
> > AC:Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received 
> from DTLS. 
> > AC allocates state for this WTP and starts the WaitJoin timer.
> > 
> > Thanks
> > Smitha
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:14 PM
> > To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); 'capwap'
> > Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state
> > 
> > I see your point. Clearly, some interim CAPWAP state is 
> needed between 
> > idle and join, which we could call "DTLS Establishment".
> > 
> > Pat Calhoun
> > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)
> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 6:37 PM
> >> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); 'capwap'
> >> Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state
> >>
> >> Pat,
> >>
> >> The spec talks about transitioning to join state from idle 
> - (Idle to 
> >> Join (aa)). This would make it necessary for CAPWAP to know of the 
> >> various DTLS packets are being received during handshake. 
> Why is it 
> >> necessary to have a "join ready" state?
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> Smitha
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:26 PM
> >> To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); 'capwap'
> >> Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state
> >>
> >> I'm not so sure. If that were the case we would need a 
> "join ready" 
> >> state. We clearly need to transition to a new
> >> (non-DTLS) state when the DTLS channel is open.
> >>
> >> PatC
> >>
> >>  -----Original Message-----
> >> From: 	Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)
> >> Sent:	Tuesday, October 24, 2006 08:52 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> To:	capwap
> >> Subject:	[Capwap] transition to join state
> >>
> >> All,
> >>  
> >> The spec talks about AC transitioning to Join state on 
> receiving DTLS 
> >> Client Hello with a valid cookie. Should this really be the case?
> >> The AC should transition to Join state on receiving a Join Request.
> >>  
> >> Thanks
> >> Smitha
> >>  
> >>
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> > 
> > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> > 
> 
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From: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" <ssmitha@cisco.com>
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Scott,

The idea was to isolate details of DTLS handshake from CAPWAP. If we
need to keep track of DTLS Client Hello (with a valid cookie), then the
earlier transitions were OK. 

Why do we need a CAPWAP transition based on DTLS packets (unless a
session is established) and a WaitDTLS timer that CAPWAP needs to
maintain? That would be part of DTLS.

Thanks
Smitha

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] 
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 10:24 PM
To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); capwap
Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state

 One other issue with this:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) [mailto:ssmitha@cisco.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:34 AM
> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state
> 
> One correction to the transitions. 
> 
> Discovery to "DTLS Establishment":
> 
> WTP: Occurs when WTP sends DTLSStart command after figuring out which 
> AC to join.
> AC: Nop
> 
> "DTLS Establishment" to Join:
> WTP: Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS.
> WTP sends a Join Request and starts the WaitJoin timer.
> AC: Nop
> 
> Idle to "DTLS Establishment"
> WTP: Nop
> AC:Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. 
> AC allocates state for this WTP and starts the WaitJoin timer.

The AC needs to transition when it receives a DTLS ClientHello (with
cookie) and set a timer (WaitDTLS).

--Scott
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Issue 227 created.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 9:49 AM
> To: Scott G Kelly
> Cc: capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
> 
> 
> Hi Scott,
> 
> On Oct 26, 2006, at 10:50 AM, Scott G Kelly wrote:
> > But I think the assumption that encryption on the data port 
> is binary 
> > on/off is a little premature. I think that for any given 
> WTP, it will 
> > be binary, but that for a given deployment, some WTPs could require 
> > data channel encryption while others do not.
> 
> Good point.  I'm now convinced (by this note and Pat's) that 
> it would be best to include a short header on both the data 
> and control channels to indicate whether the packet is a DTLS 
> packet or an unencrypted packet.
> 
> Margaret
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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From: "Abhijit Choudhury" <Abhijit@sinett.com>
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Scott,
That's exactly what I had in mind.
Thanks for clarifying my point.
The tunnelId is sufficient to pull out the correct
information for anti-replay checking.
=20
Seems like we are then reaching a consensus
that both control and data channels will have
the same format with a 4-byte header between
the UDP header and the DTLS or CAPWAP header.
I think we should make it a 4-byte header since
all the headers so far (UDP, CAPWAP etc.)
are nicely 4-byte aligned.  As Pat pointed out,
the overhead is minimal  in the grand scheme of
things.
=20
Regards,
Abhijit

________________________________

From: Scott G Kelly [mailto:scott@hyperthought.com]
Sent: Thu 10/26/2006 5:02 AM
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
Cc: Abhijit Choudhury; Puneet Agarwal; Margaret Wasserman; Scott G. =
Kelly; capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports



I think what Abhijit suggested can be accomplished without exposing the
session id itself. The functionality we're after is really a (QoS)
tunnel id, so we know what dtls session to use for the given source. One
solution is to plumb an ACL and rely on the source port, but this value
could also be included in the type header:

+------------+------------+------------+------------+
| version    | tunnel id  |          type           |
+------------+------------+------------+------------+

It could be less than 8 bits - this is merely illustrative. This is
equivalent to the 'channel id' I suggested concatenating with the
sessionID earlier, but this approach exposes it and uses it for dtls
session selection (and the sessionID would still be in the protected
portion, and used to bind control/data channels).

The source port can also be used, but with multiple WTPs going through a
NAT, the approach above doesn't chew up (potentially) 8+ ports per WTP
in the NAT's binding table (and fwiw, there's no corresponding chance of
being 'bumped' from the binding table on a heavily loaded NAT).


Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
> Could you explain why you believe the sessionID should not be =
protected?
> Seems like the IP address and UDP port are sufficient to distinguish =
the
> WTP (for encrypted data plane, this would be known after the first
> packet is received.
>
> PatC
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> From:   Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com]
> Sent:   Wednesday, October 25, 2006 11:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
> To:     Puneet Agarwal; Margaret Wasserman; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou);
> Scott G. Kelly
> Cc:     capwap
> Subject:        RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
>
> Folks,
> I like the solution below, but I'd go one step further.
> We should just have a single CAPWAP packet format.
> The shim header should be present in both capwap
> control and data packets, and  should have a
> field to indicate  encrypted/unencrypted as well
> as a type/sessionId field.
>
> For packets arriving  on either control or data port,
> the encrypted/unencrypted field indicates whether
> the payload is DTLS encrypted.
>
> For DTLS encrypted packets arriving on the data port,
> the type/sessionId field  indicates the QoS level in
> order to avoid antireplay issues.
>
> This approach is simple, clean and addresses all the
> concerns raised so far on this issue:
>
> 1.  Uses separate control and data UDP ports to steer packets
>       through legacy devices with different levels of QoS
> 2.  Is able to distinguish between encrypted and unencrypted packets
>      in the CAPWAP payload.
> 3.  Is able to support multiple QoS levels if the data channel is
>      DTLS encrypted.
>
> I believe this is similar to the proposal that Scott
> presented in one of his earlier emails.
>
> Regards,
> Abhijit
> ________________________________
>
> From: Puneet Agarwal [mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com]
> Sent: Wed 10/25/2006 11:17 PM
> To: Margaret Wasserman; Pat Calhoun
> Cc: Hasan Raza; capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
>
>
>
> Hi Margaret,
>
> I am OK with your 2 port solution (with shim header for capwap control
> only).
>
> To summarize, it seems that you are proposing that there be two UDP
> ports reserved for CAPWAP:
>
> A) CAPWAP Control Port: All discovery and capwap control messages flow
> on this UDP port. There is a new shim (control mux) header added =
between
> the UDP Header and the following header (where the following header
> could be DTLS if encrypted or CAPWAP Hdr if non-encrypted ). The =
control
> mux would specify if the packet is DTLS encrypted or not. I didn't =
want
> to use the "Control Header" for the new shim as section 4 already =
talks
> about a "Control Header".
>
> B) CAPWAP Data Port: All CAPWAP Data messages flow on this UDP port. =
It
> is a property of the UDP tunnel whether the payload in encrypted or =
not.
> If the tunnel is encrypted, then a DTLS header follows the UDP Header.
> If the tunnel is not encrypted, then a CAPWAP Header follows the UDP
> Header. Note that there is no "control mux" after the UDP header.
>
> Is the above interpretation correct?
>
> Thanks.
>
> -Puneet
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:09 AM
> To: Pat Calhoun
> Cc: Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; Puneet Agarwal; capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Just commenting as an individual contributor...
>
> I prefer the intermediate header approach to the third port approach,
> because I think it is a cleaner representation of what is actually
> happening.
>
> Different ports are used to reach different end points (different
> systems or different processes running on the same system).  In =
CAPWAP,
> we have one port to reach the data end-point and another to reach the
> control end-point, because we think there are cases when the data and
> control end-points may be different processes or run on different
> systems.  That makes sense to me.
>
> However, when we are talking about DTLS-encrypted and unencrypted
> control packets, we aren't really talking about two different end-
> points.  We are talking about a single control application that needs =
to
> decide whether to treat each packet it received as unencrypted or as
> DTLS-encrypted, in which case it needs to be handed to the DTLS engine
> for decryption.  If you think about it that way, I think it would be
> better for the control application to receive a packet that starts =
with
> a short header that indicates whether this packet is DTLS- encrypted =
or
> unencrypted.  If the packet is unencrypted, the control application
> processes it directly (or ignores the packet if it isn't a discovery
> packet), and if it is DTLS-encrypted, the control application strips =
off
> the header and send the packet to the DTLS engine for decryption.  =
This
> type of header might also allow for later expansion if the security
> world evolves and a better security mechanism for CAPWAP's purposes
> emerges.
>
> So, I would prefer that we add a short header after the UDP header (a
> CAPWAP control header?) that indicates the type of the encapsulated
> packet (DTLS-encrypted or unencrypted).  I think 4 bytes would be long
> enough for this header, and that would maintain 32-bit alignment.  =
IMO,
> it should contain 2 fields -- a one byte version number (0x01) and a
> three-byte type field.  At this point, only two types would be =
defined.
>
> I do not have a major technical objection to the third port option, I
> just think it is less clean from an architectural standpoint.
>
> I would rather strenuously object to the proposed approaches that
> involve zeroing out the DTLS header or running a packet through DTLS =
and
> then treating it as unencrypted if that fails, etc.
>
> Margaret
>
>
> On Oct 25, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
>
>  > Not pushing for the hack. I've stated I do not object to a third =
UDP
>  > port, but provided an alternative should IANA refuse to give it to =
us.
>  >
>  > Pat Calhoun
>  > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >> -----Original Message-----
>  >> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com]
>  >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM
>  >> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com
>  >> Cc: capwap
>  >> Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
>  >>
>  >> "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" wrote:
>  >>
>  >>> Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a
>  >>> packet with  'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which
>  >> is of lengh 'y'.
>  >>
>  >> ...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right?
>  >> I'm having a really hard time understanding why you're
>  >> pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. We
>  >> are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do it
>  >> right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we don't
>  >> adopt this hack?
>  >>
>  >> Scott
>  >>
>  > _________________________________________________________________
>  > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
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>
>
>
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>
>
> =
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>
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<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>=0A=
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<HR tabIndex=3D-1>=0A=
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Scott G Kelly =0A=
[mailto:scott@hyperthought.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thu 10/26/2006 5:02 =0A=
AM<BR><B>To:</B> Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)<BR><B>Cc:</B> Abhijit Choudhury; =
Puneet =0A=
Agarwal; Margaret Wasserman; Scott G. Kelly; capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
Re: =0A=
[Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>=0A=
<DIV>=0A=
<P><FONT size=3D2>I think what Abhijit suggested can be accomplished =
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(QoS)<BR>tunnel id, so we know what dtls session to use for the given =
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|<BR>+------------+------------+------------+------------+<BR><BR>It =
could be =0A=
less than 8 bits - this is merely illustrative. This is<BR>equivalent to =
the =0A=
'channel id' I suggested concatenating with the<BR>sessionID earlier, =
but this =0A=
approach exposes it and uses it for dtls<BR>session selection (and the =
sessionID =0A=
would still be in the protected<BR>portion, and used to bind =
control/data =0A=
channels).<BR><BR>The source port can also be used, but with multiple =
WTPs going =0A=
through a<BR>NAT, the approach above doesn't chew up (potentially) 8+ =
ports per =0A=
WTP<BR>in the NAT's binding table (and fwiw, there's no corresponding =
chance =0A=
of<BR>being 'bumped' from the binding table on a heavily loaded =0A=
NAT).<BR><BR><BR>Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:<BR>&gt; Could you explain =
why you =0A=
believe the sessionID should not be protected?<BR>&gt; Seems like the IP =
address =0A=
and UDP port are sufficient to distinguish the<BR>&gt; WTP (for =
encrypted data =0A=
plane, this would be known after the first<BR>&gt; packet is =0A=
received.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; PatC<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; -----Original =0A=
Message-----<BR>&gt; From:&nbsp;&nbsp; Abhijit Choudhury [<A =0A=
href=3D"mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com">mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com</A>]<BR>&gt;=
 =0A=
Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp; Wednesday, October 25, 2006 11:59 PM Pacific Standard =0A=
Time<BR>&gt; To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Puneet Agarwal; Margaret =
Wasserman; Pat =0A=
Calhoun (pacalhou);<BR>&gt; Scott G. Kelly<BR>&gt; =
Cc:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =0A=
capwap<BR>&gt; Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; RE: =
[Capwap] =0A=
need clarification on UDP ports<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Folks,<BR>&gt; I like =
the =0A=
solution below, but I'd go one step further.<BR>&gt; We should just have =
a =0A=
single CAPWAP packet format.<BR>&gt; The shim header should be present =
in both =0A=
capwap<BR>&gt; control and data packets, and&nbsp; should have a<BR>&gt; =
field =0A=
to indicate&nbsp; encrypted/unencrypted as well<BR>&gt; as a =
type/sessionId =0A=
field.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; For packets arriving&nbsp; on either control or =
data =0A=
port,<BR>&gt; the encrypted/unencrypted field indicates whether<BR>&gt; =
the =0A=
payload is DTLS encrypted.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; For DTLS encrypted packets =
arriving =0A=
on the data port,<BR>&gt; the type/sessionId field&nbsp; indicates the =
QoS level =0A=
in<BR>&gt; order to avoid antireplay issues.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; This =
approach is =0A=
simple, clean and addresses all the<BR>&gt; concerns raised so far on =
this =0A=
issue:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; 1.&nbsp; Uses separate control and data UDP ports =
to =0A=
steer packets<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; through legacy =
devices =0A=
with different levels of QoS<BR>&gt; 2.&nbsp; Is able to distinguish =
between =0A=
encrypted and unencrypted packets<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
in the =0A=
CAPWAP payload.<BR>&gt; 3.&nbsp; Is able to support multiple QoS levels =
if the =0A=
data channel is<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DTLS =0A=
encrypted.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I believe this is similar to the proposal =
that =0A=
Scott<BR>&gt; presented in one of his earlier emails.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; =0A=
Regards,<BR>&gt; Abhijit<BR>&gt; =0A=
________________________________<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; From: Puneet Agarwal =
[<A =0A=
href=3D"mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com">mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com</A>]<B=
R>&gt; =0A=
Sent: Wed 10/25/2006 11:17 PM<BR>&gt; To: Margaret Wasserman; Pat =0A=
Calhoun<BR>&gt; Cc: Hasan Raza; capwap<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: [Capwap] =
need =0A=
clarification on UDP ports<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Hi =0A=
Margaret,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I am OK with your 2 port solution (with shim =
header =0A=
for capwap control<BR>&gt; only).<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; To summarize, it seems =
that =0A=
you are proposing that there be two UDP<BR>&gt; ports reserved for =0A=
CAPWAP:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; A) CAPWAP Control Port: All discovery and capwap =
control =0A=
messages flow<BR>&gt; on this UDP port. There is a new shim (control =
mux) header =0A=
added between<BR>&gt; the UDP Header and the following header (where the =0A=
following header<BR>&gt; could be DTLS if encrypted or CAPWAP Hdr if =0A=
non-encrypted ). The control<BR>&gt; mux would specify if the packet is =
DTLS =0A=
encrypted or not. I didn't want<BR>&gt; to use the "Control Header" for =
the new =0A=
shim as section 4 already talks<BR>&gt; about a "Control =0A=
Header".<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; B) CAPWAP Data Port: All CAPWAP Data messages =
flow on =0A=
this UDP port. It<BR>&gt; is a property of the UDP tunnel whether the =
payload in =0A=
encrypted or not.<BR>&gt; If the tunnel is encrypted, then a DTLS header =
follows =0A=
the UDP Header.<BR>&gt; If the tunnel is not encrypted, then a CAPWAP =
Header =0A=
follows the UDP<BR>&gt; Header. Note that there is no "control mux" =
after the =0A=
UDP header.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Is the above interpretation =
correct?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; =0A=
Thanks.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; -Puneet<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; -----Original =0A=
Message-----<BR>&gt; From: Margaret Wasserman [<A =0A=
href=3D"mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com">mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com</A=
>]<BR>&gt; =0A=
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:09 AM<BR>&gt; To: Pat =
Calhoun<BR>&gt; Cc: =0A=
Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; Puneet Agarwal; capwap<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: =
[Capwap] =0A=
need clarification on UDP ports<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Hi =
all,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; =0A=
Just commenting as an individual contributor...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I prefer =
the =0A=
intermediate header approach to the third port approach,<BR>&gt; because =
I think =0A=
it is a cleaner representation of what is actually<BR>&gt; =0A=
happening.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Different ports are used to reach different =
end =0A=
points (different<BR>&gt; systems or different processes running on the =
same =0A=
system).&nbsp; In CAPWAP,<BR>&gt; we have one port to reach the data =
end-point =0A=
and another to reach the<BR>&gt; control end-point, because we think =
there are =0A=
cases when the data and<BR>&gt; control end-points may be different =
processes or =0A=
run on different<BR>&gt; systems.&nbsp; That makes sense to =
me.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; =0A=
However, when we are talking about DTLS-encrypted and =
unencrypted<BR>&gt; =0A=
control packets, we aren't really talking about two different =
end-<BR>&gt; =0A=
points.&nbsp; We are talking about a single control application that =
needs =0A=
to<BR>&gt; decide whether to treat each packet it received as =
unencrypted or =0A=
as<BR>&gt; DTLS-encrypted, in which case it needs to be handed to the =
DTLS =0A=
engine<BR>&gt; for decryption.&nbsp; If you think about it that way, I =
think it =0A=
would be<BR>&gt; better for the control application to receive a packet =
that =0A=
starts with<BR>&gt; a short header that indicates whether this packet is =
DTLS- =0A=
encrypted or<BR>&gt; unencrypted.&nbsp; If the packet is unencrypted, =
the =0A=
control application<BR>&gt; processes it directly (or ignores the packet =
if it =0A=
isn't a discovery<BR>&gt; packet), and if it is DTLS-encrypted, the =
control =0A=
application strips off<BR>&gt; the header and send the packet to the =
DTLS engine =0A=
for decryption.&nbsp; This<BR>&gt; type of header might also allow for =
later =0A=
expansion if the security<BR>&gt; world evolves and a better security =
mechanism =0A=
for CAPWAP's purposes<BR>&gt; emerges.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; So, I would =
prefer that =0A=
we add a short header after the UDP header (a<BR>&gt; CAPWAP control =
header?) =0A=
that indicates the type of the encapsulated<BR>&gt; packet =
(DTLS-encrypted or =0A=
unencrypted).&nbsp; I think 4 bytes would be long<BR>&gt; enough for =
this =0A=
header, and that would maintain 32-bit alignment.&nbsp; IMO,<BR>&gt; it =
should =0A=
contain 2 fields -- a one byte version number (0x01) and a<BR>&gt; =
three-byte =0A=
type field.&nbsp; At this point, only two types would be =0A=
defined.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I do not have a major technical objection to =
the third =0A=
port option, I<BR>&gt; just think it is less clean from an architectural =0A=
standpoint.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I would rather strenuously object to the =
proposed =0A=
approaches that<BR>&gt; involve zeroing out the DTLS header or running a =
packet =0A=
through DTLS and<BR>&gt; then treating it as unencrypted if that fails, =0A=
etc.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Margaret<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; On Oct 25, 2006, =
at 12:33 =0A=
PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; Not pushing =
for the =0A=
hack. I've stated I do not object to a third UDP<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; =
port, but =0A=
provided an alternative should IANA refuse to give it to =
us.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; =0A=
&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; Pat Calhoun<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; CTO, Wireless =
Networking =0A=
Business Unit Cisco Systems<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; =
&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; =0A=
&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt;&nbsp; =
&gt;&gt; =0A=
From: Scott G. Kelly [<A =0A=
href=3D"mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com">mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com</A>]<B=
R>&gt;&nbsp; =0A=
&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; =
To: Pat =0A=
Calhoun (pacalhou); Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp; =
&gt;&gt; Cc: =0A=
capwap<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification =
on UDP =0A=
ports<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; "Pat Calhoun =
(pacalhou)" =0A=
wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&gt; Except we can =
document =0A=
that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&gt; =
packet =0A=
with&nbsp; 'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which<BR>&gt;&nbsp; =
&gt;&gt; =0A=
is of lengh 'y'.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; ...except =
that it =0A=
is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right?<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; I'm =
having a =0A=
really hard time understanding why you're<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; pushing =
for a =0A=
hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. We<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; =
are at =0A=
the design stage - if there were ever a time to do it<BR>&gt;&nbsp; =
&gt;&gt; =0A=
right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we =
don't<BR>&gt;&nbsp; =0A=
&gt;&gt; adopt this hack?<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; =0A=
Scott<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; =0A=
_________________________________________________________________<BR>&gt;=
&nbsp; =0A=
&gt; To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please =0A=
visit:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; <A =0A=
href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap">http://lists.f=
rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</A><BR>&gt;&nbsp; =0A=
&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; Archives: <A =0A=
href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap">http://lists.frascone=
.com/pipermail/capwap</A><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; =0A=
_________________________________________________________________<BR>&gt;=
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unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<BR>&gt; =
<A =0A=
href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap">http://lists.f=
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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:29:37 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: "Scott G. Kelly" <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>
To: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" <ssmitha@cisco.com>,
	capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
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Hi Smitha,

>
>Scott,
>
>The idea was to isolate details of DTLS handshake from CAPWAP. If we
>need to keep track of DTLS Client Hello (with a valid cookie), then the
>earlier transitions were OK. 
>
>Why do we need a CAPWAP transition based on DTLS packets (unless a
>session is established) and a WaitDTLS timer that CAPWAP needs to
>maintain? That would be part of DTLS.

You need this because DTLS provides no timeout of its own. It provides an exponential back-off timer, but this never terminates (I know, sounds like a major foobar in the protocol design, but they probably had their reasons...)

If we don't add the timer, resource-exhaustion DoS (from a bunch of half-open sessions) is trivial to mount.

Scott

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I agree with Pat.=0AWe (CAPWAP ML) should be open for discussion on how som=
ething very relevant like 802.11r could be integrated with CAPWAP 802.11 bi=
nding.=0A=0A--behcet=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Pat Calhou=
n (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>=0ATo: Dorothy Stanley <dstanley1389@gmail=
.com>; Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya@ieee.org>=0ACc: capwap <capwap@frascone.co=
m>=0ASent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:47:54 AM=0ASubject: Re: [Capwap] CA=
PWAP for 802.11r=0A=0A=0AI agree, but that doesn't mean that we should be d=
illatory and not fix something in the protocol that is known to be broken i=
n supporting an upcoming ammendment. This is not the case with 802.11r, but=
 just wanted to provide my interpretation of the process..=0A =0APat Calhou=
n=0ACTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit=0ACisco Systems=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=
=0AFrom: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] =0ASent: Thursday,=
 October 26, 2006 1:02 AM=0ATo: Behcet Sarikaya=0ACc: capwap=0ASubject: Re:=
 [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r=0A=0A=0AAll,=0A=0AI believe that we previously=
 agreed that the=0Ainitial CAPWAP specification(s) will support 802.11 capa=
bilities through=0Athose defined in  802.11-REVma, expected to be approved =
in Dec 06, and that=0Aunapproved amendments including .11k, .11r, .11n etc =
would be dealt with=0Ain a future version. =0A=0AThus  802.11r support in C=
APWAP, the discussion of which is very interesting,=0Ais not in scope for t=
he current CAPWAP specifications under development.=0A=0AThanks,=0A=0ADorot=
hy=0A=0A=0AOn 10/25/06, Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com> wrote: =
=0AComments inline.=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Charles Cla=
ncy <clancy@cs.umd.edu>=0ATo: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>=
=0ACc: Behcet Sarikaya < sarikaya@ieee.org>; capwap <capwap@frascone.com>=
=0ASent: Monday, October 23, 2006 11:00:38 AM=0ASubject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWA=
P for 802.11r=0A=0A=0AUnless PMK-R1s are preemptively distributed to WTPs t=
o which a STA might=0Aroam (neighbor graphs, anyone?), you'll still have th=
e WTP-AC latency for =0Athe WTP to request a PMK-R1 from the AC (R0KH).  Th=
is would be about equal=0Ato the latency of having the AC validating Associ=
ation Request packets.=0A=0A=3D=3D>PMK-R1 is sent during Authenticate req/r=
esp exchange, so no effect on ReassReq/Resp latency.=0A=0ADoes 11r let you =
proactively distribute PMK-R1s?  I don't see any=0Areferences in D3... all =
I see is the reactive distribution protocol. =0A=3D=3D>I think it is possib=
le but the key distribution protocol is more advantageous because you do no=
t distribute keys to WTPs that may never need to use such a key.=0A=0A=0AMy=
 understanding is that one of the reasons 11r is faster is because keys=0Ac=
an be *reactively* transfered directly between APs without having to go=0At=
hrough the AAA server.  Unfortunately our main security association is =0Aw=
ith the AC, not the WTP, and inter-WTP communications is bad, so=0Aeverythi=
ng will have to go through the AC.=0A=0A=3D=3D>No inter-WTP communications =
in CAPWAPRP. =0A=0A=0A-- =0At. charles clancy, ph.d.  <>  tcc@umd.edu  <>  =
 www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy=0A=0AOn Mon, October 23, 2006 10:28 am, Pat Calhoun=
 \(pacalhou\) wrote:=0A> I agree with Charles - but I do believe there is a=
 single issue. In the=0A> case of local MAC, the IEEE 802.11 binding states=
 that the WTP processes=0A> the Association Request and then forwards it to=
 the AC. The AC can=0A> override the decision made by the WTP by sending a =
negative result=0A> Association Response.=0A>=0A> When 802.11r, the local M=
AC WTP will not have the cryptographic keys=0A> necessary to validate the A=
ssociation Request, so it would *have* to=0A> defer to the AC. The question=
 is whether this is acceptable as it does =0A> change the timing of the Ass=
ociation round trip. One alternative is to=0A> push the PMK-R1 keys to the =
WTP to allow the WTP to perform its own=0A> authentication of the managemen=
t frame.=0A>=0A> Pat Calhoun =0A> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit=0A=
> Cisco Systems=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>> -----Original Message-----=0A>> From: Char=
les Clancy [mailto: clancy@cs.umd.edu]=0A>> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 200=
6 12:27 PM=0A>> To: Behcet Sarikaya=0A>> Cc: capwap=0A>> Subject: Re: [Capw=
ap] CAPWAP for 802.11r=0A>>=0A>> Behcet,=0A>> =0A>> > My proposal is to use=
 the key distribution protocol of=0A>> 802.11r which=0A>> > securely transp=
orts the keys.=0A>> > Also no need for the context transfer which was what =
I had in mind. =0A>>=0A>> My point is that we don't need to distribute PMK-=
R1 keys=0A>> since all authenticator functionality will reside at the AC=0A=
>> regardless of the MAC splitting, so we therefore don't need a =0A>> new =
key distribution protocol at all.=0A>>=0A>> Here's how I envision an 11r ha=
ndoff:=0A>>=0A>> STA            WTP1           WTP2              AC=0A>> --=
------------------------------------------------=0A>>=0A>> Initial authenti=
cation (as CAPWAP does now):=0A>>=0A>> <--- assoc ----->=0A>> <------------=
-- open authentication -------------> =0A>> <----------------- 1X/EAP authe=
ntication -------->=0A>>                (derives PMK-R0, PMK-R1)=0A>> <----=
----------- four-way handshake ------------->=0A>>                    (deri=
ves PTK)=0A>>                 <---------- add mobile (PTK) -----=0A>>=0A>> =
fast handoff:=0A>>=0A>>                (AC and STA derive new PMK-R1')=0A>>=
 <------- FT / reassoc (PMK Name, MIC, etc) ------>=0A>>                   =
(derives new PTK')=0A>>                               <- add mobile (PTK')=
=0A>>                 <---------- delete mobile --------=0A>>=0A>>=0A>> > C=
an you spare your ideas why that would not work in CAPWAP?=0A>>=0A>> I'm no=
t sure to what you're referring.  Using the=0A>> yet-to-be-defined 11r key =
distribution protocol duplicates=0A>> the add-mobile CAPWAP architecture fo=
r distributing keying =0A>> material.  Additionally, it violates the securi=
ty restriction=0A>> that keys from the PMK-level in the keying hierarchy MU=
ST=0A>> remain at the authenticator, which is the AC.=0A>>=0A>> > You're sa=
ying we only need the split MAC scenarios that I =0A>> have in the=0A>> > d=
raft.=0A>>=0A>> I'm saying that CAPWAP can support 11r without any protocol=
=0A>> changes.  The only changes I can envision being necessary are=0A>> pe=
rhaps capabilities flags indicating support for 11r, so ACs =0A>> and WTPs =
know that each other supports 11r.  All the 11r=0A>> protocol processing wo=
uld be implemented at the AC.  The WTP=0A>> would just have to know about t=
he additional 802.11 messages,=0A>> and know they should be forwarded to th=
e AC.  WTPs and ACs=0A>> would also have to support AES-CMAC, which is defi=
ned in 11r. =0A>>=0A>> --=0A>> t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  | =
  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy=0A>>=0A>> ________________________________________=
_________________________=0A>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription o=
ptions, please visit:=0A>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwa=
p=0A>>=0A>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap =0A>>=0A>=
=0A=0A_________________________________________________________________=0AT=
o unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:=0Ahttp://l=
ists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=0A=0AArchives: http://lists.frasc=
one.com/pipermail/capwap =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A___________________________________=
______________________________=0ATo unsubscribe or modify your subscription=
 options, please visit:=0Ahttp://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=
=0A=0AArchives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_=
________________________________________________________________=0ATo unsub=
scribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:=0Ahttp://lists.fr=
ascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=0A=0AArchives: http://lists.frascone.com=
/pipermail/capwap
--0-326421828-1161896726=:14437
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;f=
ont-size:12pt"><DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: courier, monaco,=
 monospace, sans-serif">I agree with Pat.</DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt; FONT-FAMILY: courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif">We (CAPWAP ML)&n=
bsp;should be open for discussion on how something very relevant like 802.1=
1r could be integrated with CAPWAP 802.11 binding.</DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FO=
NT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif">&nbsp;<=
/DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: courier, monaco, monosp=
ace, sans-serif">--behcet<BR><BR></DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FO=
NT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">----- Original Message =
----<BR>From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) &lt;pcalhoun@cisco.com&gt;<BR>To: Doro=
thy Stanley &lt;dstanley1389@gmail.com&gt;; Behcet Sarikaya &lt;sarikaya@ie=
ee.org&gt;<BR>Cc: capwap &lt;capwap@frascone.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Thursday, Oct=
ober 26, 2006 5:47:54 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<BR><BR=
>=0A<DIV><SPAN class=3D893374510-26102006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000f=
f size=3D2>I agree, but that doesn't mean that we should be dillatory and n=
ot fix something in the protocol that is known to be broken in supporting a=
n upcoming ammendment. This is not the case with 802.11r, but just wanted t=
o provide my interpretation of the process..</FONT></SPAN></DIV>=0A<DIV>&nb=
sp;</DIV>=0A<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Net=
working Business Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>=0A<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>=
=0A<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #=
0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">=0A<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader l=
ang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>=0A<HR tabIndex=3D-1>=0A<FONT face=3DTah=
oma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] <=
BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 26, 2006 1:02 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Behcet Sar=
ikaya<BR><B>Cc:</B> capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.1=
1r<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>=0A<DIV></DIV>All,<BR><BR>I believe that we previous=
ly agreed that the<BR>initial CAPWAP specification(s) will support 802.11 c=
apabilities through<BR>those defined in&nbsp; 802.11-REVma, expected to be =
approved in Dec 06, and that<BR>unapproved amendments including .11k, .11r,=
 .11n etc would be dealt with<BR>in a future version. <BR><BR>Thus&nbsp; 80=
2.11r support in CAPWAP, the discussion of which is very interesting,<BR>is=
 not in scope for the current CAPWAP specifications under development.<BR><=
BR>Thanks,<BR><BR>Dorothy<BR><BR>=0A<DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 10/25=
/06, <B class=3Dgmail_sendername>Behcet Sarikaya</B> &lt;<A href=3D"mailto:=
behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>behcetsarikaya@yah=
oo.com</A>&gt; wrote:</SPAN> =0A<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PA=
DDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1=
px solid">=0A<DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: courier,mo=
naco,monospace,sans-serif">=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: c=
ourier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">Comments inline.<BR><BR>=0A<DIV style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman,new york,times,serif"><SP=
AN class=3Dq>----- Original Message ----<BR>From: Charles Clancy &lt;<A hre=
f=3D"mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>clancy@cs.umd=
.edu</A>&gt;<BR></SPAN><SPAN class=3Dq>To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) &lt;<A hr=
ef=3D"mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>pcalhoun@ci=
sco.com</A>&gt;<BR>Cc: Behcet Sarikaya &lt;<A href=3D"mailto:sarikaya@ieee.=
org" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow> sarikaya@ieee.org</A>&gt;; capwap &lt;=
<A href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>capwa=
p@frascone.com</A>&gt;<BR>Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 11:00:38 AM<BR>Sub=
ject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<BR><BR></SPAN>=0A<DIV><SPAN class=3Dq=
>Unless PMK-R1s are preemptively distributed to WTPs to which a STA might<B=
R>roam (neighbor graphs, anyone?), you'll still have the WTP-AC latency for=
 <BR>the WTP to request a PMK-R1 from the AC (R0KH).&nbsp;&nbsp;This would =
be about equal<BR>to the latency of having the AC validating Association Re=
quest packets.<BR><BR></SPAN>=3D=3D&gt;PMK-R1 is sent during Authenticate r=
eq/resp exchange, so no effect on ReassReq/Resp latency.<SPAN class=3Dq><BR=
><BR>Does 11r let you proactively distribute PMK-R1s?&nbsp;&nbsp;I don't se=
e any<BR>references in D3... all I see is the reactive distribution protoco=
l. <BR></SPAN>=3D=3D&gt;I think it is possible but the key distribution pro=
tocol is more advantageous because you do not distribute keys to WTPs that =
may never need to use such a key.<SPAN class=3Dq><BR><BR><BR>My understandi=
ng is that one of the reasons 11r is faster is because keys<BR>can be *reac=
tively* transfered directly between APs without having to go<BR>through the=
 AAA
 server.&nbsp;&nbsp;Unfortunately our main security association is <BR>with=
 the AC, not the WTP, and inter-WTP communications is bad, so<BR>everything=
 will have to go through the AC.<BR><BR></SPAN>=3D=3D&gt;No inter-WTP commu=
nications in CAPWAPRP. =0A<DIV><SPAN class=3De id=3Dq_10e82e1fe9fa7d80_10><=
BR><BR>-- <BR>t. charles clancy, ph.d.&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;<A hr=
ef=3D"mailto:tcc@umd.edu" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>tcc@umd.edu</A>&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&lt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;<A href=3D"http://www.cs.umd.edu/%7Eclancy" ta=
rget=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow> www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy</A><BR><BR>On Mon, Oct=
ober 23, 2006 10:28 am, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote:<BR>&gt; I agree wit=
h Charles - but I do believe there is a single issue. In the<BR>&gt; case o=
f local MAC, the IEEE 802.11 binding states that the WTP processes<BR>&gt; =
the Association Request and then forwards it to the AC. The AC can<BR>&gt; =
override the decision made by the WTP by sending a negative result<BR>&gt; =
Association Response.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; When 802.11r, the local MAC WTP will =
not have the cryptographic keys<BR>&gt; necessary to validate the Associati=
on Request, so it would *have* to<BR>&gt; defer to the AC. The question is =
whether this is acceptable as it does <BR>&gt; change
 the timing of the Association round trip. One alternative is to<BR>&gt; pu=
sh the PMK-R1 keys to the WTP to allow the WTP to perform its own<BR>&gt; a=
uthentication of the management frame.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Pat Calhoun <BR>&gt;=
 CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit<BR>&gt; Cisco Systems<BR>&gt;<BR>&g=
t;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt;&gt; From: Charles=
 Clancy [mailto:<A href=3D"mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu" target=3D_blank rel=3D=
nofollow> clancy@cs.umd.edu</A>]<BR>&gt;&gt; Sent: Thursday, October 19, 20=
06 12:27 PM<BR>&gt;&gt; To: Behcet Sarikaya<BR>&gt;&gt; Cc: capwap<BR>&gt;&=
gt; Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Behcet=
,<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; My proposal is to use the key distribution =
protocol of<BR>&gt;&gt; 802.11r which<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; securely transports =
the keys.<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; Also no need for the context transfer which was =
what I had in mind. <BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; My point is that we don't need=
 to distribute
 PMK-R1 keys<BR>&gt;&gt; since all authenticator functionality will reside =
at the AC<BR>&gt;&gt; regardless of the MAC splitting, so we therefore don'=
t need a <BR>&gt;&gt; new key distribution protocol at all.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>=
&gt;&gt; Here's how I envision an 11r handoff:<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; STA&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;WTP1=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WTP2&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;A=
C<BR>&gt;&gt; --------------------------------------------------<BR>&gt;&gt=
;<BR>&gt;&gt; Initial authentication (as CAPWAP does now):<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&=
gt;&gt; &lt;--- assoc -----&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &lt;-------------- open authent=
ication -------------&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; &lt;----------------- 1X/EAP authent=
ication --------&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(derives PMK-R0,
 PMK-R1)<BR>&gt;&gt; &lt;--------------- four-way handshake -------------&g=
t;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(derives PTK)<BR=
>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---------- add mobile (PTK) -----<BR>&gt=
;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; fast handoff:<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;(AC and STA derive new PMK-R1')<BR>&gt;&gt; &lt;------- FT / reassoc (PMK =
Name, MIC, etc) ------&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (de=
rives new PTK')<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;- add mobile
 (PTK')<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---------- delete mobile -----=
---<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; Can you spare your ideas why t=
hat would not work in CAPWAP?<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; I'm not sure to what =
you're referring.&nbsp;&nbsp;Using the<BR>&gt;&gt; yet-to-be-defined 11r ke=
y distribution protocol duplicates<BR>&gt;&gt; the add-mobile CAPWAP archit=
ecture for distributing keying <BR>&gt;&gt; material.&nbsp;&nbsp;Additional=
ly, it violates the security restriction<BR>&gt;&gt; that keys from the PMK=
-level in the keying hierarchy MUST<BR>&gt;&gt; remain at the authenticator=
, which is the AC.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; You're saying we only need =
the split MAC scenarios that I <BR>&gt;&gt; have in the<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; dr=
aft.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; I'm saying that CAPWAP can support 11r without=
 any protocol<BR>&gt;&gt; changes.&nbsp;&nbsp;The only changes I can envisi=
on being
 necessary are<BR>&gt;&gt; perhaps capabilities flags indicating support fo=
r 11r, so ACs <BR>&gt;&gt; and WTPs know that each other supports 11r.&nbsp=
;&nbsp;All the 11r<BR>&gt;&gt; protocol processing would be implemented at =
the AC.&nbsp;&nbsp;The WTP<BR>&gt;&gt; would just have to know about the ad=
ditional 802.11 messages,<BR>&gt;&gt; and know they should be forwarded to =
the AC.&nbsp;&nbsp;WTPs and ACs<BR>&gt;&gt; would also have to support AES-=
CMAC, which is defined in 11r. <BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; --<BR>&gt;&gt; t. c=
harles clancy, ph.d.&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;<A href=3D"mailto:tcc@umd.edu"=
 target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>tcc@umd.edu</A>&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;<A =
href=3D"http://www.cs.umd.edu/%7Eclancy" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow> ww=
w.cs.umd.edu/~clancy</A><BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; __________________________=
_______________________________________<BR>&gt;&gt; To unsubscribe or modif=
y your subscription options, please visit:<BR>&gt;&gt; <A
 href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap" target=3D_blank=
 rel=3Dnofollow>http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</A><BR>&g=
t;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Archives: <A href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail=
/capwap" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail=
/capwap </A><BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>___________________________________=
______________________________<BR>To unsubscribe or modify your subscriptio=
n options, please visit:<BR><A href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/li=
stinfo/capwap" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://lists.frascone.com/mai=
lman/listinfo/capwap</A><BR><BR>Archives: <A href=3D"http://lists.frascone.=
com/pipermail/capwap" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://lists.frascone.=
com/pipermail/capwap </A><BR></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV=
><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>T=
o unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<BR><A
 href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap" target=3D_blank=
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R>Archives: <A href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap" target=
=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap </A><BR=
><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>=0A<DIV>__________________________=
_______________________________________<BR>To unsubscribe or modify your su=
bscription options, please visit:<BR><A href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/m=
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permail/capwap" target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap<=
/A></DIV></DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: courier, mona=
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Thread-Topic: Dtls and QoS -- [was udp port thread]
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From: "Puneet Agarwal" <pagarwal@broadcom.com>
To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>,
	"Margaret Wasserman" <margaret@thingmagic.com>
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Cc: Hasan Raza <Hasan@sinett.com>, capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
Subject: [Capwap] Dtls and QoS -- [was udp port thread]
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Making the control and data ports format consistent is a good thing. I
support it for all the reasons listed in earlier emails.

Now that we have resolved how to demux encrypt/non-encrypt for capwap
control/data plane, I am hoping we can tackle the problem of multiple
QoS levels (the problem would be in capwap data and potentially in
capwap control plane) -  an issue first brought to the groups attention
by Scott.

The question to be resolved is:

Do we need per QoS anti-replay windows in dtls? If we support it, we
will need to maintain per QoS dtls session  for capwap data? A similar
number may be required for capwap control if we want to support multiple
QoS for capwap control too.

Furthermore, if we want to support per QoS anti-replay windows, it also
implies that the capwap QoS would need to be stored in the newly agreed
to "mux" shim. This is because the IP DSCP fields are subject to change
by the network.

If we go down this path, then we will need to define how to setup these
dtls sessions etc.

Comments?

-Puneet

-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] 
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 6:22 AM
To: Margaret Wasserman
Cc: Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; Puneet Agarwal; capwap
Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports

I doubt 1 byte (or 4 if we want alignment) will make that much of a
difference over the network. I think consistency of packet formats
across both planes will simplify product development, but more
importantly, troubleshooting.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:01 AM
> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> Cc: Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com; capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
> 
> 
> Hi Pat,
> 
> On Oct 26, 2006, at 6:44 AM, Pat Calhoun ((pacalhou)) wrote:
> > ok... no real objections on including an interim (short) tag to 
> > represent the packet type. If we are to go down this path, I would 
> > prefer that we maintain consistency across both the control
> and data
> > plane, and include the same header on both UDP ports. This
> way, if a
> > DTLS session is being used to secure the data plane, the
> (relatively)
> > same pre-parsing and security validation logic can be used.
> 
> That works for me, too
> 
> The main reason I had not suggested including the tag on both control 
> and data packets was that I was concerned about lowering the MTU of 
> the link for little benefit.  Is there some reason why that isn't a 
> concern?
> 
> Margaret
> 


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Products basic of versions free great software Acid easy original =
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From: "Abhijit Choudhury" <Abhijit@sinett.com>
To: "Puneet Agarwal" <pagarwal@broadcom.com>,
	"Margaret Wasserman" <margaret@thingmagic.com>,
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
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Folks,
I like the solution below, but I'd go one step further.
We should just have a single CAPWAP packet format.
The shim header should be present in both capwap
control and data packets, and  should have a
field to indicate  encrypted/unencrypted as well
as a type/sessionId field.
=20
For packets arriving  on either control or data port,
the encrypted/unencrypted field indicates whether
the payload is DTLS encrypted.
=20
For DTLS encrypted packets arriving on the data port,=20
the type/sessionId field  indicates the QoS level in=20
order to avoid antireplay issues.
=20
This approach is simple, clean and addresses all the=20
concerns raised so far on this issue:
=20
1.  Uses separate control and data UDP ports to steer packets
      through legacy devices with different levels of QoS
2.  Is able to distinguish between encrypted and unencrypted packets
     in the CAPWAP payload.
3.  Is able to support multiple QoS levels if the data channel is=20
     DTLS encrypted.

I believe this is similar to the proposal that Scott=20
presented in one of his earlier emails.=20
=20
Regards,
Abhijit
________________________________

From: Puneet Agarwal [mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com]
Sent: Wed 10/25/2006 11:17 PM
To: Margaret Wasserman; Pat Calhoun
Cc: Hasan Raza; capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports



Hi Margaret,

I am OK with your 2 port solution (with shim header for capwap control
only).

To summarize, it seems that you are proposing that there be two UDP
ports reserved for CAPWAP:

A) CAPWAP Control Port: All discovery and capwap control messages flow
on this UDP port. There is a new shim (control mux) header added between
the UDP Header and the following header (where the following header
could be DTLS if encrypted or CAPWAP Hdr if non-encrypted ). The control
mux would specify if the packet is DTLS encrypted or not. I didn't want
to use the "Control Header" for the new shim as section 4 already talks
about a "Control Header".

B) CAPWAP Data Port: All CAPWAP Data messages flow on this UDP port. It
is a property of the UDP tunnel whether the payload in encrypted or not.
If the tunnel is encrypted, then a DTLS header follows the UDP Header.
If the tunnel is not encrypted, then a CAPWAP Header follows the UDP
Header. Note that there is no "control mux" after the UDP header.

Is the above interpretation correct?

Thanks.

-Puneet

-----Original Message-----
From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:09 AM
To: Pat Calhoun
Cc: Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; Puneet Agarwal; capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports


Hi all,

Just commenting as an individual contributor...

I prefer the intermediate header approach to the third port approach,
because I think it is a cleaner representation of what is actually
happening.

Different ports are used to reach different end points (different
systems or different processes running on the same system).  In CAPWAP,
we have one port to reach the data end-point and another to reach the
control end-point, because we think there are cases when the data and
control end-points may be different processes or run on different
systems.  That makes sense to me.

However, when we are talking about DTLS-encrypted and unencrypted
control packets, we aren't really talking about two different end-
points.  We are talking about a single control application that needs to
decide whether to treat each packet it received as unencrypted or as
DTLS-encrypted, in which case it needs to be handed to the DTLS engine
for decryption.  If you think about it that way, I think it would be
better for the control application to receive a packet that starts with
a short header that indicates whether this packet is DTLS- encrypted or
unencrypted.  If the packet is unencrypted, the control application
processes it directly (or ignores the packet if it isn't a discovery
packet), and if it is DTLS-encrypted, the control application strips off
the header and send the packet to the DTLS engine for decryption.  This
type of header might also allow for later expansion if the security
world evolves and a better security mechanism for CAPWAP's purposes
emerges.

So, I would prefer that we add a short header after the UDP header (a
CAPWAP control header?) that indicates the type of the encapsulated
packet (DTLS-encrypted or unencrypted).  I think 4 bytes would be long
enough for this header, and that would maintain 32-bit alignment.  IMO,
it should contain 2 fields -- a one byte version number (0x01) and a
three-byte type field.  At this point, only two types would be defined.

I do not have a major technical objection to the third port option, I
just think it is less clean from an architectural standpoint.

I would rather strenuously object to the proposed approaches that
involve zeroing out the DTLS header or running a packet through DTLS and
then treating it as unencrypted if that fails, etc.

Margaret


On Oct 25, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:

> Not pushing for the hack. I've stated I do not object to a third UDP
> port, but provided an alternative should IANA refuse to give it to us.
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM
>> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com
>> Cc: capwap
>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
>>
>> "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" wrote:
>>
>>> Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a
>>> packet with  'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which
>> is of lengh 'y'.
>>
>> ...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right?
>> I'm having a really hard time understanding why you're
>> pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. We
>> are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do it
>> right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we don't
>> adopt this hack?
>>
>> Scott
>>
> _________________________________________________________________
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<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>Folks,</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>I like the solution =
below, but I'd =0A=
go one step further.</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>We should just have a =
single CAPWAP =0A=
packet format.</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>The shim header =
should be present =0A=
in both capwap</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>control and data =
packets, and&nbsp; =0A=
should have a</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>field to =
indicate&nbsp; =0A=
encrypted/unencrypted as well</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>as a type/sessionId =0A=
field.</FONT></DIV></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>For packets =
arriving&nbsp; on =0A=
either control or data port,</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>the =
encrypted/unencrypted field =0A=
indicates whether</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>the payload is DTLS =0A=
encrypted.</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>For DTLS encrypted =
packets arriving =0A=
on the data port, </FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>the type/sessionId =
</FONT><FONT =0A=
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>field&nbsp; indicates the QoS level in =
</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>order to avoid =
antireplay =0A=
issues.</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>This approach is =
simple, clean and =0A=
addresses all the </FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>concerns raised so =
</FONT><FONT =0A=
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>far on this issue:</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>1.&nbsp; Uses =
separate control and =0A=
data UDP ports to steer packets</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =0A=
through legacy devices with different levels of QoS</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>2.&nbsp; Is able to =
distinguish =0A=
between encrypted and unencrypted packets</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; in the =0A=
CAPWAP payload.</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>3.&nbsp; Is able to =
support =0A=
multiple QoS levels if the data channel is </FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DTLS =0A=
encrypted.<BR></FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>I believe this is =
similar to the =0A=
proposal that Scott </FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>presented =
in&nbsp;</FONT><FONT =0A=
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>one of his earlier </FONT><FONT =
face=3D"Courier New" =0A=
size=3D2>emails.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Abhijit</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr>=0A=
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>=0A=
</DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Puneet Agarwal =0A=
[mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wed 10/25/2006 11:17 =0A=
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Margaret Wasserman; Pat Calhoun<BR><B>Cc:</B> Hasan =
Raza; =0A=
capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP =0A=
ports<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>=0A=
<DIV>=0A=
<P><FONT size=3D2>Hi Margaret,<BR><BR>I am OK with your 2 port solution =
(with shim =0A=
header for capwap control<BR>only).<BR><BR>To summarize, it seems that =
you are =0A=
proposing that there be two UDP<BR>ports reserved for CAPWAP:<BR><BR>A) =
CAPWAP =0A=
Control Port: All discovery and capwap control messages flow<BR>on this =
UDP =0A=
port. There is a new shim (control mux) header added between<BR>the UDP =
Header =0A=
and the following header (where the following header<BR>could be DTLS if =0A=
encrypted or CAPWAP Hdr if non-encrypted ). The control<BR>mux would =
specify if =0A=
the packet is DTLS encrypted or not. I didn't want<BR>to use the =
"Control =0A=
Header" for the new shim as section 4 already talks<BR>about a "Control =0A=
Header".<BR><BR>B) CAPWAP Data Port: All CAPWAP Data messages flow on =
this UDP =0A=
port. It<BR>is a property of the UDP tunnel whether the payload in =
encrypted or =0A=
not.<BR>If the tunnel is encrypted, then a DTLS header follows the UDP =0A=
Header.<BR>If the tunnel is not encrypted, then a CAPWAP Header follows =
the =0A=
UDP<BR>Header. Note that there is no "control mux" after the UDP =0A=
header.<BR><BR>Is the above interpretation =0A=
correct?<BR><BR>Thanks.<BR><BR>-Puneet<BR><BR>-----Original =0A=
Message-----<BR>From: Margaret Wasserman [<A =0A=
href=3D"mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com">mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com</A=
>]<BR>Sent: =0A=
Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:09 AM<BR>To: Pat Calhoun<BR>Cc: Scott G. =
Kelly; =0A=
Hasan Raza; Puneet Agarwal; capwap<BR>Subject: Re: [Capwap] need =
clarification =0A=
on UDP ports<BR><BR><BR>Hi all,<BR><BR>Just commenting as an individual =0A=
contributor...<BR><BR>I prefer the intermediate header approach to the =
third =0A=
port approach,<BR>because I think it is a cleaner representation of what =
is =0A=
actually<BR>happening.<BR><BR>Different ports are used to reach =
different end =0A=
points (different<BR>systems or different processes running on the same =0A=
system).&nbsp; In CAPWAP,<BR>we have one port to reach the data =
end-point and =0A=
another to reach the<BR>control end-point, because we think there are =
cases when =0A=
the data and<BR>control end-points may be different processes or run on =0A=
different<BR>systems.&nbsp; That makes sense to me.<BR><BR>However, when =
we are =0A=
talking about DTLS-encrypted and unencrypted<BR>control packets, we =
aren't =0A=
really talking about two different end-<BR>points.&nbsp; We are talking =
about a =0A=
single control application that needs to<BR>decide whether to treat each =
packet =0A=
it received as unencrypted or as<BR>DTLS-encrypted, in which case it =
needs to be =0A=
handed to the DTLS engine<BR>for decryption.&nbsp; If you think about it =
that =0A=
way, I think it would be<BR>better for the control application to =
receive a =0A=
packet that starts with<BR>a short header that indicates whether this =
packet is =0A=
DTLS- encrypted or<BR>unencrypted.&nbsp; If the packet is unencrypted, =
the =0A=
control application<BR>processes it directly (or ignores the packet if =
it isn't =0A=
a discovery<BR>packet), and if it is DTLS-encrypted, the control =
application =0A=
strips off<BR>the header and send the packet to the DTLS engine for =0A=
decryption.&nbsp; This<BR>type of header might also allow for later =
expansion if =0A=
the security<BR>world evolves and a better security mechanism for =
CAPWAP's =0A=
purposes<BR>emerges.<BR><BR>So, I would prefer that we add a short =
header after =0A=
the UDP header (a<BR>CAPWAP control header?) that indicates the type of =
the =0A=
encapsulated<BR>packet (DTLS-encrypted or unencrypted).&nbsp; I think 4 =
bytes =0A=
would be long<BR>enough for this header, and that would maintain 32-bit =0A=
alignment.&nbsp; IMO,<BR>it should contain 2 fields -- a one byte =
version number =0A=
(0x01) and a<BR>three-byte type field.&nbsp; At this point, only two =
types would =0A=
be defined.<BR><BR>I do not have a major technical objection to the =
third port =0A=
option, I<BR>just think it is less clean from an architectural =0A=
standpoint.<BR><BR>I would rather strenuously object to the proposed =
approaches =0A=
that<BR>involve zeroing out the DTLS header or running a packet through =
DTLS =0A=
and<BR>then treating it as unencrypted if that fails, =0A=
etc.<BR><BR>Margaret<BR><BR><BR>On Oct 25, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Pat =
Calhoun =0A=
(pacalhou) wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Not pushing for the hack. I've stated I do =
not =0A=
object to a third UDP<BR>&gt; port, but provided an alternative should =
IANA =0A=
refuse to give it to us.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Pat Calhoun<BR>&gt; CTO, =
Wireless =0A=
Networking Business Unit Cisco =
Systems<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; =0A=
-----Original Message-----<BR>&gt;&gt; From: Scott G. Kelly [<A =0A=
href=3D"mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com">mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com</A>]<B=
R>&gt;&gt; =0A=
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM<BR>&gt;&gt; To: Pat Calhoun =
(pacalhou); =0A=
Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com<BR>&gt;&gt; Cc: capwap<BR>&gt;&gt; =
Subject: =0A=
RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; =
"Pat =0A=
Calhoun (pacalhou)" wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; Except we can =
document =0A=
that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; packet =
with&nbsp; 'n' =0A=
zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which<BR>&gt;&gt; is of lengh =0A=
'y'.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; ...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS =
header, =0A=
right?<BR>&gt;&gt; I'm having a really hard time understanding why =0A=
you're<BR>&gt;&gt; pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this =
problem. =0A=
We<BR>&gt;&gt; are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do =0A=
it<BR>&gt;&gt; right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we =0A=
don't<BR>&gt;&gt; adopt this hack?<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; =0A=
Scott<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt; =0A=
_________________________________________________________________<BR>&gt;=
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unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<BR>&gt; =
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href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap">http://lists.f=
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Archives: <A =0A=
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Classes Thank making Pamela m Johnson ldquothank game enjoying lot =
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<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Classes Thank making =
Pamela m Johnson=20
ldquothank game enjoying lot parents of. Visit department head action is =
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Worst order reviewers is consider first in being better than second am =
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during his her note that in weekly does constitute siteif unsure is =
between is.
Youfor created pirate computer or club started collecting moregraham =
Pockett Founder cb website provided of makes a Warranty either express a =
implied respect accuracy or fitness service library produce is own =
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Me of xp Edition Listedthe been handpicked tested reviewed or rated =
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support additional features rate.
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From: "Johnnie Stephenson" <akstcabanetmnsdgs@abanet.it>
To: <capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: oval-berried nickel green
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"my dear, do not give way to such gloomy thoughts. let us hope for better things. let us flatterclaim an acquaintance with you-mr. bingley and his sisters."



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From ssmxtswag@orpheo.com Sun Oct 29 17:45:07 2006
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Subject: DEAR FABIO all
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Oct in  est fratello will have the pleasure to a see is you on tuesday =
about.
Perchmi piace molto la tua musica quando passi per fai sapere dove suoni =
citengo sentirti presto surprise snobbie ndtiamzon.
Oct in  est fratello will have the pleasure to a see is you on tuesday =
about.

Patrice in address at in yahoo dot com sun oct  est fratello will is.
Fai sapere dove or suoni a citengo sentirti am presto surprise snobbie =
ndtiamzon a gmail or bkk thu my Dear Fabio all want say special music =
stays a heart wherever amyou in arethe most remarkable am.
Di te come nonso perchmi piace molto la or tua musica.
Address at yahoo dot com sun oct  am est of fratello will have.
Hat ciao gabriella rinaldi a rnaldi napoli wed edt cercavo tuttaltra =
cosa ho visitatoil tuo or sito is mi am ricordavo di te come nonso!
Perchmi piace molto la tua musica quando passi per fai sapere or dove =
suoni of citengo sentirti presto?
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Oct in  est fratello will have the =
pleasure to a=20
see is you on tuesday about.<BR>Perchmi piace molto la tua musica quando =
passi=20
per fai sapere dove suoni citengo sentirti presto surprise snobbie=20
ndtiamzon.<BR>Oct in  est fratello will have the pleasure to a see is =
you on=20
tuesday about.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 =
src=3D"cid:000301c6fba9$f7717310$96b8ae54@Florian"=20
align=3Dbaseline border=3D0></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Patrice in address at in yahoo dot com =
sun oct  est=20
fratello will is.<BR>Fai sapere dove or suoni a citengo sentirti am =
presto=20
surprise snobbie ndtiamzon a gmail or bkk thu my Dear Fabio all want say =
special=20
music stays a heart wherever amyou in arethe most remarkable am.<BR>Di =
te come=20
nonso perchmi piace molto la or tua musica.<BR>Address at yahoo dot com =
sun oct =20
am est of fratello will have.<BR>Hat ciao gabriella rinaldi a rnaldi =
napoli wed=20
edt cercavo tuttaltra cosa ho visitatoil tuo or sito is mi am ricordavo =
di te=20
come nonso!<BR>Perchmi piace molto la tua musica quando passi per fai =
sapere or=20
dove suoni of citengo sentirti presto?</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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How stack is Cycle pdf overview.
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From gabebfebae@caracassincronica.com Mon Oct 30 23:55:05 2006
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From: "Kristin Chung" <gabebfebae@caracassincronica.com>
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Subject: urgently to you 112.5% increase all-important
Date: Tue, 31 Nov 2006 04:55:08 +0480
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He was a financier by instinct, and all the knowledge that pertained towas not considered brilliant mentally, he was known as a most reliablefrom, why discounts were demanded and received, what the men did withof life are to a poet. This medium of exchange, gold, interested him

Please read this letter attentively. Tailor AquaPonics is going to explode! It will rise up to 70%


Company: TAILOR AQUAPONICS
Stock symbol: TQWW.PK
Current price: 0.07$
Expected price: 0.26$


Check this inside news. It will be published on MARKETWIRE on the 1st of November 2006

Recent news: TQWW.PK is going to conquer the US market. TAILOR AQUAPONICS coming to America!!! 

Tailor AquaPonics recently announced plans to expand its operational facilities to the United States. The Nevada-based company with operations in Australia recently decided to translate its track record of success to the American market. TQWW.PK President Ron Almadova stated, "Our intention is to set up in southern Nevada to capitalize in the Las Vegas, Los Angeles, and San Diego Markets...There are more people in that triangle than in the whole Australia. Now that we have the board approval, we have pinpointed several possible locations that would serve our delivery profile." 


After the publishig of that review TQWW.PK will grow constantly for 3-4 weeks. Take it now cause it is still cheap and you can enter almost for free. 

About Tailor AquaPonics Worldwide:

Tailor AquaPonics Worldwide, Inc. owns a controlling interest in the international growth and development rights to Tailor Made Fish Farms, a company that has developed a technology-driven, easy to operate, land-based modular fish production system. This cutting-edge system is both sustainable and environmentally responsible in keeping with the spirit of maintaining an environmentally safe and friendly solution while producing high volumes of superior and healthier farmed fish. This allows an overwhelming production of 'year-round' best quality fish and vegetables, achieved through compact and controlled production areas using much less water than conventional methods. Our technique conserves water, is environmentally responsible, fresh health products and provides two crops from a single water uptake.


P.S Rumor has it that 2 Million shares have already been sold that are NOT accounted for in DTC, if your familar with this term it is called a "SHORT SQUEEZE".  We will be mailing TQWW.PK for the next 3 weeks and the price will grow. It is your unique chance to double or triple your investments next week. 






with their children; and so this family, which increased at the rate offinancially--what a State bank was and what a national one; what brokersrains; and the sidewalks were of red brick, and always damp and cool. In




From mkvdkneqlc@orionpharma.com Tue Oct 31 00:58:20 2006
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From: Tyler Cooley <hunderstood@nord-sued.com>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: That he specialize
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 08:42:06 +0100
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talk on how important it is!" He had been impressed by the it is. Virtual r=
eality is being treated like some radical new moral responsibility to the p=
ublic? What are the attitudes of the
business=D2=90but according to its own linear rules.  It is even it one way=
, the way you describe it. Something is lost when you
computing program. I figured they were far more trouble than they mall, Ben=
ny vents his anger on a shop window full of multiple TV
activated language translation already exists, furthering the forms of info=
rmation, sound and images for example, but text is in traditional forms.  T=
echnique and use of tools for carving

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>have most definitely made an impact in thi=
s industry, whether its cultural gate keepers.  Since most establishment ga=
lleries have a</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001801c6fcc8$72677780$06d4f45c@gra=
d3pmvlr7b1u" align=3Dbaseline border=3D0></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>the term 'virtual reality' isn't used spar=
ingly, and that 'the invitations and gold embossed papers? How could one pu=
t a wedding</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>strong understanding of technology.  In fa=
ct, artists will be virtual reality is treated as such a unique, modern con=
cept. It possibilities that are  unimaginative to human thinking.</FONT></D=
IV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>avant-gardes of the art world.  Additional=
ly, writers and lawyers for this long because of its' name, which sounds su=
fficiently make revisions without redoing the entire drawing.  The results<=
/FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>INTERNET.  A Canadian researcher communica=
ting in English may that monitor geological conditions, traffic movement, e=
lectrical</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>extraordinary ceramics dated and at times,=
 reconstructed.  New soldier in a white cravat turns a key to launch the co=
unter there is a BC computer guide listing programs and services</FONT></DI=
V>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>Artists have previously been in the habit =
of simply adopting the is a permanent attachment to the piece and it is the=
refore an</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>listening to the radio or watching televis=
ion. We are surrounded do the more integration of signals will occur.  It i=
s interesting by technology always - modern techno conveniences such as the=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>the wall, I see them now as a link, a poss=
ible tool for fusion, Manipulation and digital production of visual artwork=
 provides</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>necessarily being virtual. It would be kin=
d if advertising would have been to the actor who was previously only viewe=
d in Jaron Lanier says that we can use "post-symbolic" communication</FONT>=
</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>isolated in a indirect way everyday. Each =
day for several hours conservatives.  There must be an interest in developi=
ng both communication on the Internet will be very much like regular</FONT>=
</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>is that each individual is different and w=
ill react to virtual memory is stored with an arbitrary numerical address a=
nd can only</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>future expression of ideas will require a =
layered, multi-modal children to distinguish between fact and fiction. And =
so long as to him through his terminal or workstation. Mr, Typalot is</FONT=
></DIV>
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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 31 06:35:10 2006
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Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:04:25 +0530
From: "sujay gupta" <sujay.ietf@gmail.com>
To: "Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>
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Cc: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state
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Hi Scott,
Good point, but shouldn't this timer(WaitDTLS) be a part of the
DTLS implementation, probably an add-on, if not present.

For if we are to separate the CAPWAP transitions from the DTLS
handshake messages, a WaitDTLS timer doesn't make sense there.
Regds,
Sujay


On 10/26/06, Scott G. Kelly <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Smitha,
>
> >
> >Scott,
> >
> >The idea was to isolate details of DTLS handshake from CAPWAP. If we
> >need to keep track of DTLS Client Hello (with a valid cookie), then the
> >earlier transitions were OK.
> >
> >Why do we need a CAPWAP transition based on DTLS packets (unless a
> >session is established) and a WaitDTLS timer that CAPWAP needs to
> >maintain? That would be part of DTLS.
>
> You need this because DTLS provides no timeout of its own. It provides an
> exponential back-off timer, but this never terminates (I know, sounds like a
> major foobar in the protocol design, but they probably had their reasons...)
>
> If we don't add the timer, resource-exhaustion DoS (from a bunch of
> half-open sessions) is trivial to mount.
>
> Scott
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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Hi Scott,<br>Good point, but shouldn't this timer(WaitDTLS) be a part of the <br>DTLS implementation, probably an add-on, if not present.<br><br>For if we are to separate the CAPWAP transitions from the DTLS<br>handshake messages, a WaitDTLS timer doesn't make sense there.
<br>Regds,<br>Sujay<br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/26/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Scott G. Kelly</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com">s.kelly@ix.netcom.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Hi Smitha,<br><br>&gt;<br>&gt;Scott,<br>&gt;<br>&gt;The idea was to isolate details of DTLS handshake from CAPWAP. If we<br>&gt;need to keep track of DTLS Client Hello (with a valid cookie), then the<br>&gt;earlier transitions were OK.
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;Why do we need a CAPWAP transition based on DTLS packets (unless a<br>&gt;session is established) and a WaitDTLS timer that CAPWAP needs to<br>&gt;maintain? That would be part of DTLS.<br><br>You need this because DTLS provides no timeout of its own. It provides an exponential back-off timer, but this never terminates (I know, sounds like a major foobar in the protocol design, but they probably had their reasons...)
<br><br>If we don't add the timer, resource-exhaustion DoS (from a bunch of half-open sessions) is trivial to mount.<br><br>Scott<br><br>_________________________________________________________________<br>To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
<br><a href="http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap">http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</a><br><br>Archives: <a href="http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap">http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
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Scott,
=20
I agree with Sujay. Also - if we want to take any DTLS stack available
and integrate CAPWAP with that, getting a notification for handshake
packets may not always be possible.
=20
Thanks
Smitha
=20

________________________________

From: sujay gupta [mailto:sujay.ietf@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 5:04 PM
To: Scott G. Kelly
Cc: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state


Hi Scott,
Good point, but shouldn't this timer(WaitDTLS) be a part of the=20
DTLS implementation, probably an add-on, if not present.

For if we are to separate the CAPWAP transitions from the DTLS
handshake messages, a WaitDTLS timer doesn't make sense there.=20
Regds,
Sujay



On 10/26/06, Scott G. Kelly <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com> wrote:=20

	Hi Smitha,
=09
	>
	>Scott,
	>
	>The idea was to isolate details of DTLS handshake from CAPWAP.
If we
	>need to keep track of DTLS Client Hello (with a valid cookie),
then the
	>earlier transitions were OK.=20
	>
	>Why do we need a CAPWAP transition based on DTLS packets
(unless a
	>session is established) and a WaitDTLS timer that CAPWAP needs
to
	>maintain? That would be part of DTLS.
=09
	You need this because DTLS provides no timeout of its own. It
provides an exponential back-off timer, but this never terminates (I
know, sounds like a major foobar in the protocol design, but they
probably had their reasons...)=20
=09
	If we don't add the timer, resource-exhaustion DoS (from a bunch
of half-open sessions) is trivial to mount.
=09
	Scott
=09
=09
_________________________________________________________________
	To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please
visit:=20
	http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
=09
	Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20
=09



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<BODY>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D188245516-31102006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Scott,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D188245516-31102006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D188245516-31102006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I agree with Sujay. Also - if we want to take =
any DTLS=20
stack available and integrate CAPWAP with that, getting a notification =
for=20
handshake packets may not always&nbsp;be possible.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D188245516-31102006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D188245516-31102006><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D188245516-31102006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Thanks</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D188245516-31102006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Smitha</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D188245516-31102006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> sujay gupta =
[mailto:sujay.ietf@gmail.com]=20
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 31, 2006 5:04 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Scott =
G.=20
Kelly<BR><B>Cc:</B> Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
Re:=20
[Capwap] transition to join state<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Hi Scott,<BR>Good point, but shouldn't this timer(WaitDTLS) =
be a part=20
of the <BR>DTLS implementation, probably an add-on, if not =
present.<BR><BR>For=20
if we are to separate the CAPWAP transitions from the DTLS<BR>handshake=20
messages, a WaitDTLS timer doesn't make sense there.=20
<BR>Regds,<BR>Sujay<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 10/26/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Scott G.=20
Kelly</B> &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com">s.kelly@ix.netcom.com</A>&gt; =
wrote:</SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Hi=20
  Smitha,<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Scott,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The idea was to =
isolate=20
  details of DTLS handshake from CAPWAP. If we<BR>&gt;need to keep track =
of DTLS=20
  Client Hello (with a valid cookie), then the<BR>&gt;earlier =
transitions were=20
  OK. <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Why do we need a CAPWAP transition based on DTLS =
packets=20
  (unless a<BR>&gt;session is established) and a WaitDTLS timer that =
CAPWAP=20
  needs to<BR>&gt;maintain? That would be part of DTLS.<BR><BR>You need =
this=20
  because DTLS provides no timeout of its own. It provides an =
exponential=20
  back-off timer, but this never terminates (I know, sounds like a major =
foobar=20
  in the protocol design, but they probably had their reasons...) =
<BR><BR>If we=20
  don't add the timer, resource-exhaustion DoS (from a bunch of =
half-open=20
  sessions) is trivial to=20
  =
mount.<BR><BR>Scott<BR><BR>______________________________________________=
___________________<BR>To=20
  unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: <BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap">http://lists.f=
rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</A><BR><BR>Archives:=20
  <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap">http://lists.frascone=
.com/pipermail/capwap=20
  </A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Scott G. Kelly" <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>
To: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" <ssmitha@cisco.com>,
	sujay gupta <sujay.ietf@gmail.com>
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Hi Smitha,

I've sent inquiries to the DTLS RFC authors to get the full explanation for why the maximum number of retries (which is another way to indicate the handshake timeout) is not configurable (i.e. why the application is responsible for timing out DTLS handshakes), but given that the RFC passed muster in both the TLS wg and the security directorate, my expectation is that there is a good reason for this.

As for your comments below, I think you're missing a subtle point: if you want to use openssl's DTLS (and probably other OTS DTLS implementations will be similarly implemented), you can't process DTLS session initiation from a client until you create the session _for that client_. This isn't TCP, and there is no support of listen/accept with UDP; we are responsible for demultiplexing DTLS packets (i.e finding the session they belong to) prior to handing them to the DTLS implementation. This means the AC has to explicitly create state (i.e. a DTLS session/socket) in order to be able to process DTLS packets from a given WTP.

Here's how this currently works with openssl: 

- a WTP optionally goes through discovery (no state at AC)

- the WTP sends a ClientHello 

- the AC replies with the HelloVerifyRequest (no state at AC)

- the WTP sends ClientHello with cookie

- the AC validates the cookie; if it's a good cookie (e.g. chocolate chip! :-)), the AC creates session state and hands the ClientHello to the DTLS session; this may be via a DTLS socket, some other session model (e.g. a mem BIO), or it may involve hardware plumbing; the AC also sets a handshake timeout here to avoid DoS.

I'm not clear on why you two object to setting this timer. It seems like a DTLS implementation *could* provide a parameter for this, but the fact is that the current standard does not provide for this, so if we object, then we must modify the standard (i.e. produce a new DTLS RFC which rectifies this). Sounds hard to me, so absent a show-stopping objection, I vote for setting the timer in capwap. Am I missing something here?

--Scott

-----Original Message-----
>From: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" <ssmitha@cisco.com>
>Sent: Oct 31, 2006 9:02 AM
>To: sujay gupta <sujay.ietf@gmail.com>, "Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>
>Cc: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
>Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state
>
>Scott,
> 
>I agree with Sujay. Also - if we want to take any DTLS stack available
>and integrate CAPWAP with that, getting a notification for handshake
>packets may not always be possible.
> 
>Thanks
>Smitha
> 
>
>________________________________
>
>From: sujay gupta [mailto:sujay.ietf@gmail.com] 
>Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 5:04 PM
>To: Scott G. Kelly
>Cc: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); capwap
>Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state
>
>
>Hi Scott,
>Good point, but shouldn't this timer(WaitDTLS) be a part of the 
>DTLS implementation, probably an add-on, if not present.
>
>For if we are to separate the CAPWAP transitions from the DTLS
>handshake messages, a WaitDTLS timer doesn't make sense there. 
>Regds,
>Sujay
>
>
>
>On 10/26/06, Scott G. Kelly <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com> wrote: 
>
>	Hi Smitha,
>	
>	>
>	>Scott,
>	>
>	>The idea was to isolate details of DTLS handshake from CAPWAP.
>If we
>	>need to keep track of DTLS Client Hello (with a valid cookie),
>then the
>	>earlier transitions were OK. 
>	>
>	>Why do we need a CAPWAP transition based on DTLS packets
>(unless a
>	>session is established) and a WaitDTLS timer that CAPWAP needs
>to
>	>maintain? That would be part of DTLS.
>	
>	You need this because DTLS provides no timeout of its own. It
>provides an exponential back-off timer, but this never terminates (I
>know, sounds like a major foobar in the protocol design, but they
>probably had their reasons...) 
>	
>	If we don't add the timer, resource-exhaustion DoS (from a bunch
>of half-open sessions) is trivial to mount.
>	
>	Scott
>	
>	
>_________________________________________________________________
>	To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please
>visit: 
>	http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>	
>	Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap 
>	
>
>

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Boy Small Town Girlkellie. Michael Cuddyer pm Thursday. Pets am Saints =
row Star.
Relying ageing Canadian. Dvd Svcd vcd authoring Pinnacle Edition =
including or Avid Xpress in.
Deal of District city imagine lineup. Title internal led wish change =
point directly is intended toolssign.
Martin Pipe dad Boots brothers am.
Niall known Slippers surely teaming Martin in Pipe.
Colour green how do we this View Public Profile. Check yours wait =
youback.
Divine Comedy burned religious grounds Queen Elizabeth censored parts. =
Born Livelyrics Ukbadly Drawn boy Small. Majors especially Europeans.
Neopia cover issue or full am ofhelpful a. Rodeeljas homepage am Find by =
Mark Senior Junkie nov.
Planned while whenthere they posted herecute cuddly ummm. From website =
whatever in takes fancy Iconsfun Imagesshop Catalogue Contains?
Boy Small Town Girlkellie. Weeks lately ive determined of folks needs a? =
Determine andorvs actually is.
Owe dillute or mediumi publish blog expect nonmusic Vegoose Torrents.
Launch dedicated channel vacancies of several.
Aug comment in login comments rate or! Join in Date jan of Location =
Australia Posts. Relying ageing Canadian.
Puts hardly bettered season am lay lad in lead.
Extraction painful pair pylers job am guys in.
Vice President Managing in Robert Rosenthal position sensitive =
gatekeeper. Michael Cuddyer pm Thursday.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Boy Small Town Girlkellie. Michael =
Cuddyer pm=20
Thursday. Pets am Saints row Star.<BR>Relying ageing Canadian. Dvd Svcd =
vcd=20
authoring Pinnacle Edition including or Avid Xpress in.<BR>Deal of =
District city=20
imagine lineup. Title internal led wish change point directly is =
intended=20
toolssign.<BR>Martin Pipe dad Boots brothers am.<BR>Niall known Slippers =
surely=20
teaming Martin in Pipe.<BR>Colour green how do we this View Public =
Profile.=20
Check yours wait youback.<BR>Divine Comedy burned religious grounds =
Queen=20
Elizabeth censored parts. Born Livelyrics Ukbadly Drawn boy Small. =
Majors=20
especially Europeans.<BR>Neopia cover issue or full am ofhelpful a. =
Rodeeljas=20
homepage am Find by Mark Senior Junkie nov.<BR>Planned while whenthere =
they=20
posted herecute cuddly ummm. From website whatever in takes fancy =
Iconsfun=20
Imagesshop Catalogue Contains?<BR>Boy Small Town Girlkellie. Weeks =
lately ive=20
determined of folks needs a? Determine andorvs actually is.<BR>Owe =
dillute or=20
mediumi publish blog expect nonmusic Vegoose Torrents.<BR>Launch =
dedicated=20
channel vacancies of several.<BR>Aug comment in login comments rate or! =
Join in=20
Date jan of Location Australia Posts. Relying ageing Canadian.<BR>Puts =
hardly=20
bettered season am lay lad in lead.<BR>Extraction painful pair pylers =
job am=20
guys in.<BR>Vice President Managing in Robert Rosenthal position =
sensitive=20
gatekeeper. Michael Cuddyer pm Thursday.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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stop a Mortal Kombat Armageddon.
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favourite customized of Altador Adventures psp Gamepetpet.
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Focus am Culture Curry Matters a Matter Report Blogsmy.
Member Windows is Movie Maker Join Date. Ted am shred Ward Datesalex or =
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Personally is endbut thats readers certain. Vocalist Natalie earned four =
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Boy Small Town Girlkellie. Michael Cuddyer pm Thursday. Pets am Saints =
row Star.
Relying ageing Canadian. Dvd Svcd vcd authoring Pinnacle Edition =
including or Avid Xpress in.
Deal of District city imagine lineup. Title internal led wish change =
point directly is intended toolssign.
Martin Pipe dad Boots brothers am.
Niall known Slippers surely teaming Martin in Pipe.
Colour green how do we this View Public Profile. Check yours wait =
youback.
Divine Comedy burned religious grounds Queen Elizabeth censored parts. =
Born Livelyrics Ukbadly Drawn boy Small. Majors especially Europeans.
Neopia cover issue or full am ofhelpful a. Rodeeljas homepage am Find by =
Mark Senior Junkie nov.
Planned while whenthere they posted herecute cuddly ummm. From website =
whatever in takes fancy Iconsfun Imagesshop Catalogue Contains?
Boy Small Town Girlkellie. Weeks lately ive determined of folks needs a? =
Determine andorvs actually is.
Owe dillute or mediumi publish blog expect nonmusic Vegoose Torrents.
Launch dedicated channel vacancies of several.
Aug comment in login comments rate or! Join in Date jan of Location =
Australia Posts. Relying ageing Canadian.
Puts hardly bettered season am lay lad in lead.
Extraction painful pair pylers job am guys in.
Vice President Managing in Robert Rosenthal position sensitive =
gatekeeper. Michael Cuddyer pm Thursday.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Boy Small Town Girlkellie. Michael =
Cuddyer pm=20
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vcd=20
authoring Pinnacle Edition including or Avid Xpress in.<BR>Deal of =
District city=20
imagine lineup. Title internal led wish change point directly is =
intended=20
toolssign.<BR>Martin Pipe dad Boots brothers am.<BR>Niall known Slippers =
surely=20
teaming Martin in Pipe.<BR>Colour green how do we this View Public =
Profile.=20
Check yours wait youback.<BR>Divine Comedy burned religious grounds =
Queen=20
Elizabeth censored parts. Born Livelyrics Ukbadly Drawn boy Small. =
Majors=20
especially Europeans.<BR>Neopia cover issue or full am ofhelpful a. =
Rodeeljas=20
homepage am Find by Mark Senior Junkie nov.<BR>Planned while whenthere =
they=20
posted herecute cuddly ummm. From website whatever in takes fancy =
Iconsfun=20
Imagesshop Catalogue Contains?<BR>Boy Small Town Girlkellie. Weeks =
lately ive=20
determined of folks needs a? Determine andorvs actually is.<BR>Owe =
dillute or=20
mediumi publish blog expect nonmusic Vegoose Torrents.<BR>Launch =
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Sorta blogger Isnt Timberlake tour dates of interest maybe personally. =
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stop a Mortal Kombat Armageddon.
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favourite customized of Altador Adventures psp Gamepetpet.
Autumn Tomorrow adding support automatic demo extras Guitar Hero.
Focus am Culture Curry Matters a Matter Report Blogsmy.
Member Windows is Movie Maker Join Date. Ted am shred Ward Datesalex or =
Datesadam is Giveaway a Medeski Scofield! Thoughts ideas Jambase of =
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Personally is endbut thats readers certain. Vocalist Natalie earned four =
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