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Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
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Hi Behcet,

Thank you for sending us a pointer to this work.

Unfortunately, this work is not currently in-scope for the CAPWAP  
WG.  Our only two deliverables at this point are the CAPWAP protocol  
specification (now in two documents) and the CAPWAP MIB.  After we  
complete that work, it may make sense to consider further extension  
to CAPWAP such as your CAPWAP for 802.11r extension, but we would  
need to be re-chartered to consider that work.

In the meantime, you might want to join the HOKEY WG and discuss your  
ideas for how CAPWAP could be used with 802.11r in that forum.

Best Regards,
Margaret
(for the CAPWAP Chairs)

On Oct 18, 2006, at 3:43 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:

> Pat and all,
>
> The link:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap- 
> fastbss-00.txt
> is now on.
>
> Regards,
>
> --behcet
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
> To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:01:11 PM
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>
> ok, I will once it becomes available.
>
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
>
>
>
>      
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> --
>     *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]
>     *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2006 4:41 PM
>     *To:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com
>     *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>
>     Pat,
>
>
>     ----- Original Message ----
>     From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
>     To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>;  
> capwap@frascone.com
>     Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:02:43 PM
>     Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>
>     Behcet,
>
>     I believe we've discussed this idea a few times, and I am still
>     unsure why we believe CAPWAP needs to define anything to support
>     TGr. The current CAPWAP protocol is sufficient to support the
>     upcoming standard.
>
>     ==>
>     The basis is there but we need several extensions.
>     Please read the draft and comment, then we can make a more  
> informed
>     decision, I think.
>
>
>     Pat Calhoun
>     CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
>     Cisco Systems
>
>
>     Regards,
>
>     --behcet
>
>          
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> --
>         *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]
>         *Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:33 AM
>         *To:* capwap@frascone.com
>         *Subject:* [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>
>         Dear all,
>           I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in 802.11R  
> Domains.
>         It should be available soon at the following link:
>
>         http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap- 
> fastbss-00.txt
>
>         Regards,
>
>         Behcet
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
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Subject: [Capwap] Agenda for IETF67
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Hi All,

The WG chairs have put together the attached agenda for the CAPWAP  
meeting at IETF67 in San Diego.

This agenda also contains a list of all of the currently open CAPWAP  
issues, grouped into several groups based on their current status and  
priority.  Please review the list carefully and let us know if you  
notice an errors or omissions.

IMPORTANT:  If you plan to attend this meeting, please read this  
(long) agenda carefully.  It contains important information regarding  
how to prepare for a face-to-face discussion of several technical  
topics that have recently been
raised/discussed on the WG mailing list.  If people come to the  
meeting well-prepared, we may be able to reach consensus on several  
of these issues during the meeting (to be confirmed on the mailing  
list, of course).

Please let us know if you have any comments or suggestions about the  
agenda or the grouping/summary of open issues.

NOTE:  This thread should not be used as a catch-all for technical  
discussion of the open issues.  If you want to make technical  
comments regarding any of the open issues, please start a new thread  
and include the issue number in your subject line.  Thank you.

Dorothy Gellert, Mahalingam Mani & Margaret Wasserman
CAPWAP WG Co-Chairs

--------

IETF 67 CAPWAP WG Meeting
Monday, November 6, 2006
1520-1720, Harbor Island III
========================

AGENDA:
- Agenda Bashing, Administrivia -- Chairs (5 min)

- Charter Milestone/Status Review -- Chairs (10 min)
   http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/capwap-charter.html

- CAPWAP MIB Update -- Chairs (2 min)
   Should we have two MIBs to match document split?
   Goals: Call for volunteers and useful examples
   (no document available)

- CAPWAP Threat Analysis -- Charles Clancey/Scott Kelly (30 min)
   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kelly-capwap-threat- 
analysis-00.txt
   Goal:  Understand threats and potential impacts on CAPWAP specs
   Question:  Adopt as a WG work item?

- CAPWAP Protocol Updates  -- Dorothy Stanley (10 min)
   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-capwap-protocol- 
binding-ieee80211-00.txt
   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-capwap-protocol- 
specification-03.txt
   Goal:  Understand document split and review major resolved issues

- CAPWAP Protocol Open Issues -- Chairs/Editors (60 min)
   Structured discussion of unresolved issues from tracker:
     #1: How to differentiate between encrypted and unencrypted packets?
     #2: What RSC value should AC use when the WTP does encryption?
     #3: How does DTLS establishment interact with CAPWAP start-up?
     #4: How/if to handle QoS across DTLS-encrypted CAPWAP connections?
     #5: Proposed CAPWAP header changes
     (and, if time allows...)
     #6: Firmware upgrade/image data issues
     #7: Configuration error handling
   Note: More information on each topic is included below in the
   section labled "GROUPING OF CAPWAP ISSUES FOR DISCUSSION.")
   Goal:  Discuss and close issues where possible (subject to review on
   mailing list)

PREPARATION:
In order to have a fruitful discussion on these topics that does
not repeat all of the discussion on the mailing list, please
read the information below and familiarize yourself with recent
mailing list discussions before the meeting.  Thank you!!

GROUPING OF CAPWAP ISSUES FOR DISCUSSION:

Note:
     Further detail about each issue, including the message that
     opened each issue can be found in the issue tracker at:
     http://www.capwap.org/cgi-bin/roundup/CAPWAP/

     The CAPWAP mailing list archives can be found at:
     http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap/

TOPIC #1: How to differentiate between encrypted and unencrypted  
packets?

     Related Issues:
     89  How does the AC differentiate Discovery Request/Client Hello
     137 Proposal for CAPWAP packet format
     217 What is frame format when WTP encrypts/decrypts
     221	No way to signal DTLS for data plane
     224 Control channel packet classification
     227 Need Shim Header to indicate crypto property of packet

     Issue Summary:
     The CAPWAP spec does not specify how implementations should
     differentiate between unencrypted and DTLS-encrypted packets
     on either the control or data ports.

     Open proposals:
     (1) Use additional ports, up to four for all combinations of
	control/data, encrypted/unencrypted.
     (2) Insert a short (4 byte?) CAPWAP MUX header after the UDP
	header to indicate type of packet enclosed (unencrypted,
	DTLS encrypted, etc.)

     Default Action:  N/A, some solution is needed.

     Goal: Reach consensus on a solution.

TOPIC #2: What RSC value should AC use when the WTP does encryption?

     Related Issues:
     43 IEEE 802.11i Considerations

     Discussion Summary:
     When the WTP does encryption and the AC does authentication, the
     AC does not have the correct RSC value to generate the third
     message of the IEEE 802.11i 4-way handshake.

     Open Proposals:
     (1) Pass a partial third message to the WTP, so that the WTP
	can calculate the MIC and send the completed message.
     (2) Add a mechanism for the AC to get the RSC from the WTP.
     (3) Indicate that the AC should use an RSC of 0, unless it
	is aware of a better value.

     Default Action: N/A, some solution is needed.

     Goal: Reach consensus on a solution.

TOPIC #3: How does DTLS establishment interact with CAPWAP start-up?

     Related Issues:
     226 Transition to join state

     Discussion Summary:
     There has been discussion of adding a new state to the state
     machine between the "Discover"/"Idle" and "Join" states called
     "DTLS Establishment".  This state would delay transition to the
     "Join" state until the DTLS session has been fully established.

     Active Proposals:
     There is a single proposal with some additions/corrections
     described in the issue tracker.

     Default State:  N/A, some solution is needed.

     Goal: Reach consensus on a solution.

TOPIC #4: How/if to handle QoS across DTLS-encrypted CAPWAP connections?

     Related Issues:
     196 Issues with update mobile QoS
     212 References to "QoS field" is invalid
     214 Should 802.1X frames be prioritized?

     Discussion Summary:
     There has been some discussion of whether we need to have per-QoS
     DTLS sessions or another way to handle QoS across the encrypted
     CAPWAP link.

     Default Action: None, do not add special QoS handling.

     Goal:  Understand the issue, determine if solution is needed.

TOPIC #5: Proposed CAPWAP header changes

     Related Issues:
     127 Usage of the Session ID field
     137 Proposal for CAPWAP packet format
     146 Updated proposal for packet formats
     168 Session is not required

     Discussion Summary:
     A proposal was made (and later updated) to change the CAPWAP
     packet formats.  Part of the proposal was covered above.  There
     has been no recent discussion of the other parts of the proposal
     on the mailing list.  There was also a proposal to add a session
     ID field to the CAPWAP header, and a later statement that a
     Session ID was not required due to the use of DTLS.

     Default Action:  None, headers remain unchanged.

     Goal:  Determine whether or not there is consensus that the
     headers need to be changed and, if so, in what ways.

TOPIC #6: Firmware upgrade/image data issues

     Related Issues:
     126 Wrong place for "Image data" state
     192 Problems with image data request and response
     200 Trickle firmware download

     Discussion Summary:
     Various issues in this area have been discussed on the list.
     There seems to be agreement that some state machine updates are
     needed, but perhaps not on the specifics and/or extent of the
     required changes.

     Default Action:  None, firmware upgrade text  remains as-is.

     Goal: Understand the issues in this area and decide what problems
     with the firmware upgrade process  need to be fixed, if any.

TOPIC #7: Configuration error handling

     Related Issues:
     108 Configuration Failure Processing chatting
     175 WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not configure
     181 Configuration Status is broken
     190 Issues with configuration update response

     Discussion Summary:
     There has been some discussion on the list indicating that our
     configuration error handlng may be inadequate.  It is not clear
     that we have a shared understanding of what level of error handling
     is required, though.

     Default Action:  None, configuration responses remain as-is.

     Goal: Understand the issues around configuration error handling
     and determine what problems in this area need to be fixed, if any.

ISSUES FOR MAILING LIST

These issues probably represent real problems with the specs, but
our discussions have not advanced to the point were it would be useful
to discuss these issues in a face-to-face setting.  In some cases,
these issues may not be well-understood by the group and/or there are
no specific proposals to address them.  These issues should be
further explored/discussed on the mailing list.  Specific proposals
should be made and considered to address them.

114 How does CAPWAP know there's a NAT?
140 Use of VLAN name in Add Mobile Station (section 4.4.8)
173 What if all of the message elements do not fit within a single frame
219 Insufficient description of WTPs during discovery

MINOR/EDITORIAL ISSUES:

These issues are well-enough understood and simple enough that they
probably wouldn't benefit from face-to-face discussion by the CAPWAP
WG.  The editors should propose solutions on the mailing list.

122 Editorial Issues in CAPWAP-01
144 Need length value for Vendor-specific payload
149 IPv6 Multicast address for Discover
152 Which message elements can be repeated?
153 Can "additional" message elements be added to a message?
177 WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join
187 AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the configuration
191 Clear Config Request. this operation has several problems
194 Handling duplicate IPV4 addresses
203 CAPWAP headers must be 4 byte aligned
211 References to "Clear Text" invalid
216 'M' bit required in AC->WTP traffic to support 802.3 frame encap
218 Static IP Address message element is a MUST
222 Need clarity on how managment frames are carried
223 Description of RID field is unclear

NON-ACTIONABLE ISSUES:

These issues do not contain enough information to be actionable.  A
message will be sent to the mailing list indicating that these issues
will be closed unless further information and/or specific proposals
for improvement are provided.

107 Broadcast Probe Mode and Supress SSID Configuration
159 Operations should have listed in which states they are applicable
183 Report Timer needs to be in section 4.5 or 11
188 Add MAC ACL Entry issue








  
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Hi All,

As indicated at the end of the previous message (regarding the CAPWAP  
agenda), there are four issues currently open in the CAPWAP issue  
tracker that do not contain enough information to be acted upon:

107 Broadcast Probe Mode and Supress SSID Configuration
159 Operations should have listed in which states they are applicable
183 Report Timer needs to be in section 4.5 or 11
188 Add MAC ACL Entry issue

Unless further details are received by Friday, November 17th,  
preferably including proposals for how to correct these issues, the  
WG co-chairs will ask the editors to close these issues without any  
action.

Please review these issues and, if they are still active concerns,  
please provide more information.

Thanks,
Margaret




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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 08:12:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>
To: Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
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Hi Margaret,=0A  My draft addresses the roaming behaviour which is covered =
in Sec. 2.2 and 2.3 of binding-80211 draft. =0A  It would make sense to be =
inclusive or completely exclusive when it comes to something as important  =
as roaming management. =0A  May I then suggest to drop these two sections f=
rom 802.11 binding document leading the way to a full investigation and sta=
ndardization of 802.11 roaming to future rechartering or to Hokey WG as you=
 mentioned?=0A  This would have the added advantage of not having to resolv=
e the keyRSC setting issue, thereby possibly speeding up things (issue #2 i=
n your list:=0A     #2: What RSC value should AC use when the WTP does encr=
yption?=0A). It would also be more consistent with the current scope of act=
ivities in CAPWAP WG.=0A=0ARegards,=0A=0A--behcet=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original=
 Message ----=0AFrom: Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com>=0ATo: sa=
rikaya@ieee.org=0ACc: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>=0ASent: Wednesday, Novem=
ber 1, 2006 7:06:49 AM=0ASubject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r=0A=0A=0AH=
i Behcet,=0A=0AThank you for sending us a pointer to this work.=0A=0AUnfort=
unately, this work is not currently in-scope for the CAPWAP  =0AWG.  Our on=
ly two deliverables at this point are the CAPWAP protocol  =0Aspecification=
 (now in two documents) and the CAPWAP MIB.  After we  =0Acomplete that wor=
k, it may make sense to consider further extension  =0Ato CAPWAP such as yo=
ur CAPWAP for 802.11r extension, but we would  =0Aneed to be re-chartered t=
o consider that work.=0A=0AIn the meantime, you might want to join the HOKE=
Y WG and discuss your  =0Aideas for how CAPWAP could be used with 802.11r i=
n that forum.=0A=0ABest Regards,=0AMargaret=0A(for the CAPWAP Chairs)=0A=0A=
On Oct 18, 2006, at 3:43 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:=0A=0A> Pat and all,=0A>=
=0A> The link:=0A> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwa=
p- =0A> fastbss-00.txt=0A> is now on.=0A>=0A> Regards,=0A>=0A> --behcet=0A>=
=0A> ----- Original Message ----=0A> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun=
@cisco.com>=0A> To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>=0A> Sent: Mo=
nday, October 16, 2006 7:01:11 PM=0A> Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.=
11r=0A>=0A> ok, I will once it becomes available.=0A>=0A>=0A> Pat Calhoun=
=0A> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit=0A> Cisco Systems=0A>=0A>=0A>=
=0A>      =0A> ------------------------------------------------------------=
---------- =0A> --=0A>     *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@y=
ahoo.com]=0A>     *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2006 4:41 PM=0A>     *To:* Pa=
t Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com=0A>     *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] C=
APWAP for 802.11r=0A>=0A>     Pat,=0A>=0A>=0A>     ----- Original Message -=
---=0A>     From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>=0A>     To: B=
ehcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>;  =0A> capwap@frascone.com=0A>   =
  Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:02:43 PM=0A>     Subject: RE: [Capwap] C=
APWAP for 802.11r=0A>=0A>     Behcet,=0A>=0A>     I believe we've discussed=
 this idea a few times, and I am still=0A>     unsure why we believe CAPWAP=
 needs to define anything to support=0A>     TGr. The current CAPWAP protoc=
ol is sufficient to support the=0A>     upcoming standard.=0A>=0A>     =3D=
=3D>=0A>     The basis is there but we need several extensions.=0A>     Ple=
ase read the draft and comment, then we can make a more  =0A> informed=0A> =
    decision, I think.=0A>=0A>=0A>     Pat Calhoun=0A>     CTO, Wireless Ne=
tworking Business Unit=0A>     Cisco Systems=0A>=0A>=0A>     Regards,=0A>=
=0A>     --behcet=0A>=0A>          =0A> -----------------------------------=
----------------------------------- =0A> --=0A>         *From:* Behcet Sari=
kaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]=0A>         *Sent:* Saturday, Octobe=
r 14, 2006 8:33 AM=0A>         *To:* capwap@frascone.com=0A>         *Subje=
ct:* [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r=0A>=0A>         Dear all,=0A>           I =
submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in 802.11R  =0A> Domains.=0A> =
        It should be available soon at the following link:=0A>=0A>         =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap- =0A> fastbss-00.=
txt=0A>=0A>         Regards,=0A>=0A>         Behcet=0A>=0A> _______________=
__________________________________________________=0A> To unsubscribe or mo=
dify your subscription options, please visit:=0A> http://lists.frascone.com=
/mailman/listinfo/capwap=0A>=0A> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/piperm=
ail/capwap=0A=0A___________________________________________________________=
______=0ATo unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:=
=0Ahttp://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=0A=0AArchives: http://=
lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
--0-897024369-1162397559=:41292
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<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;=
font-size:12pt"><DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman=
, new york, times, serif"><FONT color=3D#0060bf>Hi Margaret,</FONT></DIV>=
=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, t=
imes, serif"><FONT color=3D#0060bf>&nbsp; My draft addresses the roaming be=
haviour which is covered in Sec. 2.2 and 2.3 of binding-80211 draft. </FONT=
></DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new =
york, times, serif"><FONT color=3D#0060bf>&nbsp; It would make sense to be =
inclusive or completely exclusive when it comes to something as important&n=
bsp; as roaming management. </FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; =
FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"><FONT color=3D#0060bf=
>&nbsp; May I then suggest to drop these two sections from 802.11 binding d=
ocument leading the way to a full investigation and standardization of 802.=
11 roaming to future rechartering or to Hokey WG as you mentioned?</FONT></=
DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new yor=
k, times, serif"><FONT color=3D#0060bf>&nbsp; This would have the added adv=
antage of not having to resolve the keyRSC setting issue, thereby possibly =
speeding up things (issue #2 in your list:</FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FON=
T-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"><FONT c=
olor=3D#0060bf><FONT color=3D#000000>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; #2: What RSC =
value should AC use when the WTP does encryption?</FONT><BR>). It would als=
o be more consistent with the current scope of activities in CAPWAP WG.</FO=
NT></DIV>=0A<P><FONT color=3D#0060bf></FONT>&nbsp;</P>=0A<P><FONT color=3D#=
0060bf>Regards,</FONT></P>=0A<P><FONT color=3D#0060bf></FONT>&nbsp;</P>=0A<=
P><FONT color=3D#0060bf>--behcet</P>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-=
FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"><BR></FONT><BR></DIV>=0A<D=
IV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,=
 serif">----- Original Message ----<BR>From: Margaret Wasserman &lt;margare=
t@thingmagic.com&gt;<BR>To: sarikaya@ieee.org<BR>Cc: capwap &lt;capwap@fras=
cone.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2006 7:06:49 AM<BR>Subject: Re=
: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<BR><BR>=0A<DIV>Hi Behcet,<BR><BR>Thank you fo=
r sending us a pointer to this work.<BR><BR>Unfortunately, this work is not=
 currently in-scope for the CAPWAP&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>WG.&nbsp;&nbsp;Our only t=
wo deliverables at this point are the CAPWAP protocol&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>specif=
ication (now in two documents) and the CAPWAP MIB.&nbsp;&nbsp;After we&nbsp=
;&nbsp;<BR>complete that work, it may make sense to consider further extens=
ion&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>to CAPWAP such as your CAPWAP for 802.11r extension, but=
 we would&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>need to be re-chartered to consider that work.<BR>=
<BR>In the meantime, you might want to join the HOKEY WG and discuss your&n=
bsp;&nbsp;<BR>ideas for how CAPWAP could be used with 802.11r in that forum=
.<BR><BR>Best Regards,<BR>Margaret<BR>(for the CAPWAP Chairs)<BR><BR>On Oct=
 18, 2006, at 3:43 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Pat and all,<BR>&=
gt;<BR>&gt; The link:<BR>&gt; <A href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-draft=
s/draft-sarikaya-capwap"
 target=3D_blank>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap<=
/A>- <BR>&gt; fastbss-00.txt<BR>&gt; is now on.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Regards,<BR=
>&gt;<BR>&gt; --behcet<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; ----- Original Message ----<BR>&gt; =
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) &lt;pcalhoun@cisco.com&gt;<BR>&gt; To: Behcet =
Sarikaya &lt;behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Sent: Monday, October 16,=
 2006 7:01:11 PM<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<BR>&gt;<B=
R>&gt; ok, I will once it becomes available.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Pat Ca=
lhoun<BR>&gt; CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit<BR>&gt; Cisco Systems<=
BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>&gt;=
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- <BR=
>&gt; --<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:be=
hcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *Sent:* Monday, Oct=
ober 16, 2006 4:41 PM<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *To:* Pat Calhoun (pa=
calhou);
 capwap@frascone.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *Subject:* Re: [Capwap=
] CAPWAP for 802.11r<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pat,<BR>&gt;<B=
R>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ----- Original Message ----<BR>&gt;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) &lt;pcalhoun@cisco.com=
&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To: Behcet Sarikaya &lt;behcetsarikaya=
@yahoo.com&gt;;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>&gt; capwap@frascone.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:02:43 PM<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Behcet,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I believe=
 we've discussed this idea a few times, and I am still<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; unsure why we believe CAPWAP needs to define anything to suppor=
t<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TGr. The current CAPWAP protocol is suffi=
cient to support the<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; upcoming
 standard.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D=3D&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The basis is there but we need several extensions.<BR>&g=
t;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Please read the draft and comment, then we can m=
ake a more&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>&gt; informed<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; dec=
ision, I think.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pat Calhoun=
<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit<BR>=
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Cisco Systems<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Regards,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --behcet<B=
R>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<=
BR>&gt; -------------------------------------------------------------------=
--- <BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *Fr=
om:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:33
 AM<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *To:* capwap@fr=
ascone.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *Subject=
:* [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Dear all,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in 80=
2.11R&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>&gt; Domains.<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It should be available soon at the following link:<BR>&gt;<=
BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A href=3D"http://w=
ww.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap" target=3D_blank>http://w=
ww.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap</A>- <BR>&gt; fastbss-00.=
txt<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Regards=
,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Behcet<BR=
>&gt;<BR>&gt; _____________________________________________________________=
____<BR>&gt; To
 unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<BR>&gt; <A =
href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap" target=3D_blank>=
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</A><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Archi=
ves: <A href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap" target=3D_blank=
>http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap</A><BR><BR>____________________=
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our subscription options, please visit:<BR><A href=3D"http://lists.frascone=
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
Thread-Index: Acb90R3LMKxQe7C/QHK8oDZyzuN1WQACDnYA
From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "Behcet Sarikaya" <sarikaya@ieee.org>,
	"Margaret Wasserman" <margaret@thingmagic.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
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I respectfully disagree with Behcet. The sections in the binding
document are necessary to properly support 802.11i.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]=20
	Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 8:13 AM
	To: Margaret Wasserman
	Cc: capwap
	Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
=09
=09
	Hi Margaret,
	  My draft addresses the roaming behaviour which is covered in
Sec. 2.2 and 2.3 of binding-80211 draft.=20
	  It would make sense to be inclusive or completely exclusive
when it comes to something as important  as roaming management.=20
	  May I then suggest to drop these two sections from 802.11
binding document leading the way to a full investigation and
standardization of 802.11 roaming to future rechartering or to Hokey WG
as you mentioned?
	  This would have the added advantage of not having to resolve
the keyRSC setting issue, thereby possibly speeding up things (issue #2
in your list:
	     #2: What RSC value should AC use when the WTP does
encryption?
	). It would also be more consistent with the current scope of
activities in CAPWAP WG.

	=20

	Regards,

	=20

	--behcet



	----- Original Message ----
	From: Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com>
	To: sarikaya@ieee.org
	Cc: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
	Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2006 7:06:49 AM
	Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
=09
=09
	Hi Behcet,
=09
	Thank you for sending us a pointer to this work.
=09
	Unfortunately, this work is not currently in-scope for the
CAPWAP =20
	WG.  Our only two deliverables at this point are the CAPWAP
protocol =20
	specification (now in two documents) and the CAPWAP MIB.  After
we =20
	complete that work, it may make sense to consider further
extension =20
	to CAPWAP such as your CAPWAP for 802.11r extension, but we
would =20
	need to be re-chartered to consider that work.
=09
	In the meantime, you might want to join the HOKEY WG and discuss
your =20
	ideas for how CAPWAP could be used with 802.11r in that forum.
=09
	Best Regards,
	Margaret
	(for the CAPWAP Chairs)
=09
	On Oct 18, 2006, at 3:43 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:
=09
	> Pat and all,
	>
	> The link:
	> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-=20
	> fastbss-00.txt
	> is now on.
	>
	> Regards,
	>
	> --behcet
	>
	> ----- Original Message ----
	> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
	> To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>
	> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:01:11 PM
	> Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
	>
	> ok, I will once it becomes available.
	>
	>
	> Pat Calhoun
	> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
	> Cisco Systems
	>
	>
	>
	>     =20
	>
----------------------------------------------------------------------=20
	> --
	>     *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]
	>     *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2006 4:41 PM
	>     *To:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com
	>     *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
	>
	>     Pat,
	>
	>
	>     ----- Original Message ----
	>     From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
	>     To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>; =20
	> capwap@frascone.com
	>     Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:02:43 PM
	>     Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
	>
	>     Behcet,
	>
	>     I believe we've discussed this idea a few times, and I am
still
	>     unsure why we believe CAPWAP needs to define anything to
support
	>     TGr. The current CAPWAP protocol is sufficient to support
the
	>     upcoming standard.
	>
	>     =3D=3D>
	>     The basis is there but we need several extensions.
	>     Please read the draft and comment, then we can make a more

	> informed
	>     decision, I think.
	>
	>
	>     Pat Calhoun
	>     CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
	>     Cisco Systems
	>
	>
	>     Regards,
	>
	>     --behcet
	>
	>         =20
	>
----------------------------------------------------------------------=20
	> --
	>         *From:* Behcet Sarikaya
[mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]
	>         *Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:33 AM
	>         *To:* capwap@frascone.com
	>         *Subject:* [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
	>
	>         Dear all,
	>           I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in
802.11R =20
	> Domains.
	>         It should be available soon at the following link:
	>
	>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-=20
	> fastbss-00.txt
	>
	>         Regards,
	>
	>         Behcet
	>
	>
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visit:
	> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
	>
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D694341517-01112006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
respectfully disagree with Behcet. The sections in the binding document =
are=20
necessary to properly support 802.11i.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Behcet Sarikaya=20
  [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November =
01,=20
  2006 8:13 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Margaret Wasserman<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  capwap<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for =
802.11r<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, =
times, serif">
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, =
times, serif"><FONT=20
  color=3D#0060bf>Hi Margaret,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, =
times, serif"><FONT=20
  color=3D#0060bf>&nbsp; My draft addresses the roaming behaviour which =
is covered=20
  in Sec. 2.2 and 2.3 of binding-80211 draft. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, =
times, serif"><FONT=20
  color=3D#0060bf>&nbsp; It would make sense to be inclusive or =
completely=20
  exclusive when it comes to something as important&nbsp; as roaming =
management.=20
  </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, =
times, serif"><FONT=20
  color=3D#0060bf>&nbsp; May I then suggest to drop these two sections =
from 802.11=20
  binding document leading the way to a full investigation and =
standardization=20
  of 802.11 roaming to future rechartering or to Hokey WG as you=20
  mentioned?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, =
times, serif"><FONT=20
  color=3D#0060bf>&nbsp; This would have the added advantage of not =
having to=20
  resolve the keyRSC setting issue, thereby possibly speeding up things =
(issue=20
  #2 in your list:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, =
times, serif"><FONT=20
  color=3D#0060bf><FONT color=3D#000000>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; #2: =
What RSC value=20
  should AC use when the WTP does encryption?</FONT><BR>). It would also =
be more=20
  consistent with the current scope of activities in CAPWAP =
WG.</FONT></DIV>
  <P><FONT color=3D#0060bf></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
  <P><FONT color=3D#0060bf>Regards,</FONT></P>
  <P><FONT color=3D#0060bf></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
  <P><FONT color=3D#0060bf>--behcet</P>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, =
times, serif"><BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, =
times, serif">-----=20
  Original Message ----<BR>From: Margaret Wasserman=20
  &lt;margaret@thingmagic.com&gt;<BR>To: sarikaya@ieee.org<BR>Cc: capwap =

  &lt;capwap@frascone.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2006 =
7:06:49=20
  AM<BR>Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<BR><BR>
  <DIV>Hi Behcet,<BR><BR>Thank you for sending us a pointer to this=20
  work.<BR><BR>Unfortunately, this work is not currently in-scope for =
the=20
  CAPWAP&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>WG.&nbsp;&nbsp;Our only two deliverables at this =
point=20
  are the CAPWAP protocol&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>specification (now in two =
documents)=20
  and the CAPWAP MIB.&nbsp;&nbsp;After we&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>complete that =
work, it=20
  may make sense to consider further extension&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>to CAPWAP =
such as=20
  your CAPWAP for 802.11r extension, but we would&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>need to =
be=20
  re-chartered to consider that work.<BR><BR>In the meantime, you might =
want to=20
  join the HOKEY WG and discuss your&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>ideas for how CAPWAP =
could=20
  be used with 802.11r in that forum.<BR><BR>Best =
Regards,<BR>Margaret<BR>(for=20
  the CAPWAP Chairs)<BR><BR>On Oct 18, 2006, at 3:43 AM, Behcet Sarikaya =

  wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Pat and all,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; The link:<BR>&gt; <A=20
  href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap"=20
  =
target=3D_blank>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap=
</A>-=20
  <BR>&gt; fastbss-00.txt<BR>&gt; is now on.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
  Regards,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; --behcet<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; ----- Original =
Message=20
  ----<BR>&gt; From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) =
&lt;pcalhoun@cisco.com&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
  To: Behcet Sarikaya &lt;behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Sent: =
Monday,=20
  October 16, 2006 7:01:11 PM<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for=20
  802.11r<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; ok, I will once it becomes=20
  available.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Pat Calhoun<BR>&gt; CTO, Wireless=20
  Networking Business Unit<BR>&gt; Cisco=20
  =
Systems<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;<BR>&gt;=20
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------- =

  <BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *From:* Behcet Sarikaya=20
  [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
*Sent:*=20
  Monday, October 16, 2006 4:41 PM<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *To:* =
Pat=20
  Calhoun (pacalhou); =
capwap@frascone.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for=20
  802.11r<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  Pat,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ----- Original =
Message=20
  ----<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)=20
  &lt;pcalhoun@cisco.com&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To: Behcet =
Sarikaya=20
  &lt;behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com&gt;;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>&gt;=20
  capwap@frascone.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sent: Monday, =
October 16,=20
  2006 1:02:43 PM<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Subject: RE: [Capwap] =
CAPWAP=20
  for 802.11r<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  Behcet,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I believe we've =
discussed this=20
  idea a few times, and I am still<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
unsure why we=20
  believe CAPWAP needs to define anything to=20
  support<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TGr. The current CAPWAP =
protocol is=20
  sufficient to support the<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; upcoming=20
  standard.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  =3D=3D&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The basis is there but we =
need several=20
  extensions.<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Please read the draft and =
comment,=20
  then we can make a more&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>&gt;=20
  informed<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; decision, I=20
  think.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pat=20
  Calhoun<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
  Unit<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Cisco=20
  Systems<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  Regards,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  =
--behcet<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>&gt;=20
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------- =

  <BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
*From:*=20
  Behcet Sarikaya=20
  =
[mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  *Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:33=20
  AM<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *To:*=20
  =
capwap@frascone.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;=20
  *Subject:* [Capwap] CAPWAP for=20
  =
802.11r<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Dear=20
  =
all,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
I=20
  submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in =
802.11R&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>&gt;=20
  Domains.<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It =
should be=20
  available soon at the following=20
  link:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<A=20
  href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap"=20
  =
target=3D_blank>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap=
</A>-=20
  <BR>&gt;=20
  =
fastbss-00.txt<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;=20
  =
Regards,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

  Behcet<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
  =
_________________________________________________________________<BR>&gt;=
 To=20
  unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<BR>&gt; =
<A=20
  href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap"=20
  =
target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</A><BR>=
&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
  Archives: <A href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap"=20
  =
target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap</A><BR><BR>___=
______________________________________________________________<BR>To=20
  unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<BR><A=20
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target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</A><BR>=
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target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap</A></DIV></DIV=
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<hat = "HOKEY chair">
Protocols for 11r handoff in CAPWAP are outside the HOKEY scope.  HOKEY's
handoff focus is based on EAP credentials before the enter the .11 keying
hierarchy, rather than after.
</hat>

<hat = "CAPWAP sec adv">
I think 11r integration to CAPWAP is out of scope for the current 802.11
binding.  I think after that's well on its way, and the WG has interest,
work on an 802.11r binding for CAPWAP could be completed.  Nothing in the
.11 binding would prevent implementation of a .11r binding.
</hat>

Behcet, I know you're anxious to get started on 11r in CAPWAP, but I think
you're a little early.  It's still D3 in the IEEE, and I think CAPWAP is
focused on getting everything else to work first.

-- 
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  <>  tcc@umd.edu  <>  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy

On Wed, November 1, 2006 8:06 am, Margaret Wasserman wrote:
>
> Hi Behcet,
>
> Thank you for sending us a pointer to this work.
>
> Unfortunately, this work is not currently in-scope for the CAPWAP
> WG.  Our only two deliverables at this point are the CAPWAP protocol
> specification (now in two documents) and the CAPWAP MIB.  After we
> complete that work, it may make sense to consider further extension
> to CAPWAP such as your CAPWAP for 802.11r extension, but we would
> need to be re-chartered to consider that work.
>
> In the meantime, you might want to join the HOKEY WG and discuss your
> ideas for how CAPWAP could be used with 802.11r in that forum.
>
> Best Regards,
> Margaret
> (for the CAPWAP Chairs)
>
> On Oct 18, 2006, at 3:43 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:
>
>> Pat and all,
>>
>> The link:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-
>> fastbss-00.txt
>> is now on.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> --behcet
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
>> To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>
>> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:01:11 PM
>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>>
>> ok, I will once it becomes available.
>>
>>
>> Pat Calhoun
>> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
>> Cisco Systems
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --
>>     *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]
>>     *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2006 4:41 PM
>>     *To:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com
>>     *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>>
>>     Pat,
>>
>>
>>     ----- Original Message ----
>>     From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
>>     To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>;
>> capwap@frascone.com
>>     Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:02:43 PM
>>     Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>>
>>     Behcet,
>>
>>     I believe we've discussed this idea a few times, and I am still
>>     unsure why we believe CAPWAP needs to define anything to support
>>     TGr. The current CAPWAP protocol is sufficient to support the
>>     upcoming standard.
>>
>>     ==>
>>     The basis is there but we need several extensions.
>>     Please read the draft and comment, then we can make a more
>> informed
>>     decision, I think.
>>
>>
>>     Pat Calhoun
>>     CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
>>     Cisco Systems
>>
>>
>>     Regards,
>>
>>     --behcet
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --
>>         *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]
>>         *Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:33 AM
>>         *To:* capwap@frascone.com
>>         *Subject:* [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>>
>>         Dear all,
>>           I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in 802.11R
>> Domains.
>>         It should be available soon at the following link:
>>
>>         http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-
>> fastbss-00.txt
>>
>>         Regards,
>>
>>         Behcet
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Nov 01 16:13:30 2006
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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 13:10:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>
To: Charles Clancy <clancy@cs.umd.edu>
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Cc: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
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My suggestion is to standardize CAPWAP 802.11 binding's station roaming in =
its entirety as a separate work not just do piece by piece.=0AThis work sho=
uld be done with the involvement of interested members. I'll be happy to co=
ntribute, it is probably possible.=0A=0A--behcet=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original =
Message ----=0AFrom: Charles Clancy <clancy@cs.umd.edu>=0ATo: Margaret Wass=
erman <margaret@thingmagic.com>=0ACc: sarikaya@ieee.org; capwap <capwap@fra=
scone.com>=0ASent: Wednesday, November 1, 2006 2:42:02 PM=0ASubject: Re: [C=
apwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r=0A=0A=0A<hat =3D "HOKEY chair">=0AProtocols for 1=
1r handoff in CAPWAP are outside the HOKEY scope.  HOKEY's=0Ahandoff focus =
is based on EAP credentials before the enter the .11 keying=0Ahierarchy, ra=
ther than after.=0A</hat>=0A=0A<hat =3D "CAPWAP sec adv">=0AI think 11r int=
egration to CAPWAP is out of scope for the current 802.11=0Abinding.  I thi=
nk after that's well on its way, and the WG has interest,=0Awork on an 802.=
11r binding for CAPWAP could be completed.  Nothing in the=0A.11 binding wo=
uld prevent implementation of a .11r binding.=0A</hat>=0A=0ABehcet, I know =
you're anxious to get started on 11r in CAPWAP, but I think=0Ayou're a litt=
le early.  It's still D3 in the IEEE, and I think CAPWAP is=0Afocused on ge=
tting everything else to work first.=0A=0A-- =0At. charles clancy, ph.d.  <=
>  tcc@umd.edu  <>  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy=0A=0AOn Wed, November 1, 2006 8:=
06 am, Margaret Wasserman wrote:=0A>=0A> Hi Behcet,=0A>=0A> Thank you for s=
ending us a pointer to this work.=0A>=0A> Unfortunately, this work is not c=
urrently in-scope for the CAPWAP=0A> WG.  Our only two deliverables at this=
 point are the CAPWAP protocol=0A> specification (now in two documents) and=
 the CAPWAP MIB.  After we=0A> complete that work, it may make sense to con=
sider further extension=0A> to CAPWAP such as your CAPWAP for 802.11r exten=
sion, but we would=0A> need to be re-chartered to consider that work.=0A>=
=0A> In the meantime, you might want to join the HOKEY WG and discuss your=
=0A> ideas for how CAPWAP could be used with 802.11r in that forum.=0A>=0A>=
 Best Regards,=0A> Margaret=0A> (for the CAPWAP Chairs)=0A>=0A> On Oct 18, =
2006, at 3:43 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:=0A>=0A>> Pat and all,=0A>>=0A>> Th=
e link:=0A>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-=0A>=
> fastbss-00.txt=0A>> is now on.=0A>>=0A>> Regards,=0A>>=0A>> --behcet=0A>>=
=0A>> ----- Original Message ----=0A>> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalho=
un@cisco.com>=0A>> To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>=0A>> Sent=
: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:01:11 PM=0A>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for=
 802.11r=0A>>=0A>> ok, I will once it becomes available.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>> Pat=
 Calhoun=0A>> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit=0A>> Cisco Systems=0A>=
>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>> -----------------------------------------------------=
-----------------=0A>> --=0A>>     *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsa=
rikaya@yahoo.com]=0A>>     *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2006 4:41 PM=0A>>   =
  *To:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com=0A>>     *Subject:* Re:=
 [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r=0A>>=0A>>     Pat,=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>     ----- Or=
iginal Message ----=0A>>     From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.c=
om>=0A>>     To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>;=0A>> capwap@fr=
ascone.com=0A>>     Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:02:43 PM=0A>>     Subj=
ect: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r=0A>>=0A>>     Behcet,=0A>>=0A>>     I =
believe we've discussed this idea a few times, and I am still=0A>>     unsu=
re why we believe CAPWAP needs to define anything to support=0A>>     TGr. =
The current CAPWAP protocol is sufficient to support the=0A>>     upcoming =
standard.=0A>>=0A>>     =3D=3D>=0A>>     The basis is there but we need sev=
eral extensions.=0A>>     Please read the draft and comment, then we can ma=
ke a more=0A>> informed=0A>>     decision, I think.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>     Pat =
Calhoun=0A>>     CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit=0A>>     Cisco Syst=
ems=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>     Regards,=0A>>=0A>>     --behcet=0A>>=0A>>=0A>> -----=
-----------------------------------------------------------------=0A>> --=
=0A>>         *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]=0A>=
>         *Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:33 AM=0A>>         *To:* cap=
wap@frascone.com=0A>>         *Subject:* [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r=0A>>=
=0A>>         Dear all,=0A>>           I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roamin=
g Protocol in 802.11R=0A>> Domains.=0A>>         It should be available soo=
n at the following link:=0A>>=0A>>         http://www.ietf.org/internet-dra=
fts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-=0A>> fastbss-00.txt=0A>>=0A>>         Regards,=
=0A>>=0A>>         Behcet=0A>>=0A>> _______________________________________=
__________________________=0A>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription =
options, please visit:=0A>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capw=
ap=0A>>=0A>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=0A>=0A> _=
________________________________________________________________=0A> To uns=
ubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:=0A> http://list=
s.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=0A>=0A> Archives: http://lists.frasc=
one.com/pipermail/capwap=0A>=0A=0A_________________________________________=
________________________=0ATo unsubscribe or modify your subscription optio=
ns, please visit:=0Ahttp://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=0A=0A=
Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
--0-372500983-1162415424=:10058
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<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;=
font-size:12pt"><DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman=
, new york, times, serif"><FONT color=3D#6000bf>My suggestion is to standar=
dize CAPWAP 802.11 binding's station roaming in its entirety as a separate =
work not just do piece by piece.</FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12=
pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"><FONT color=3D#60=
00bf>This work should be done with the involvement of interested members. I=
'll be happy to contribute, it is probably possible.</FONT></DIV>=0A<P><FON=
T color=3D#6000bf></FONT>&nbsp;</P>=0A<P><FONT color=3D#6000bf>--behcet</FO=
NT></P>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new =
york, times, serif"><BR><BR></DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FA=
MILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">----- Original Message ----<=
BR>From: Charles Clancy &lt;clancy@cs.umd.edu&gt;<BR>To: Margaret Wasserman=
 &lt;margaret@thingmagic.com&gt;<BR>Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; capwap &lt;capwa=
p@frascone.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2006 2:42:02 PM<BR>Subje=
ct: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<BR><BR>=0A<DIV>&lt;hat =3D "HOKEY chair=
"&gt;<BR>Protocols for 11r handoff in CAPWAP are outside the HOKEY scope.&n=
bsp;&nbsp;HOKEY's<BR>handoff focus is based on EAP credentials before the e=
nter the .11 keying<BR>hierarchy, rather than after.<BR>&lt;/hat&gt;<BR><BR=
>&lt;hat =3D "CAPWAP sec adv"&gt;<BR>I think 11r integration to CAPWAP is o=
ut of scope for the current 802.11<BR>binding.&nbsp;&nbsp;I think after tha=
t's well on its way, and the WG has interest,<BR>work on an 802.11r binding=
 for CAPWAP could be completed.&nbsp;&nbsp;Nothing in the<BR>.11 binding wo=
uld prevent implementation of a .11r binding.<BR>&lt;/hat&gt;<BR><BR>Behcet=
, I know you're anxious to get started on 11r in CAPWAP, but I think<BR>you=
're a little early.&nbsp;&nbsp;It's still D3 in the IEEE, and I think CAPWA=
P is<BR>focused on getting everything else to work first.<BR><BR>-- <BR>t. =
charles clancy, ph.d.&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;tcc@umd.edu&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&lt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;<A href=3D"http://www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy"
 target=3D_blank>www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy</A><BR><BR>On Wed, November 1, 2006=
 8:06 am, Margaret Wasserman wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Hi Behcet,<BR>&gt;<BR>&=
gt; Thank you for sending us a pointer to this work.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Unfort=
unately, this work is not currently in-scope for the CAPWAP<BR>&gt; WG.&nbs=
p;&nbsp;Our only two deliverables at this point are the CAPWAP protocol<BR>=
&gt; specification (now in two documents) and the CAPWAP MIB.&nbsp;&nbsp;Af=
ter we<BR>&gt; complete that work, it may make sense to consider further ex=
tension<BR>&gt; to CAPWAP such as your CAPWAP for 802.11r extension, but we=
 would<BR>&gt; need to be re-chartered to consider that work.<BR>&gt;<BR>&g=
t; In the meantime, you might want to join the HOKEY WG and discuss your<BR=
>&gt; ideas for how CAPWAP could be used with 802.11r in that forum.<BR>&gt=
;<BR>&gt; Best Regards,<BR>&gt; Margaret<BR>&gt; (for the CAPWAP Chairs)<BR=
>&gt;<BR>&gt; On Oct 18, 2006, at 3:43 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:<BR>&gt;<B=
R>&gt;&gt; Pat
 and all,<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; The link:<BR>&gt;&gt; <A href=3D"http://w=
ww.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap" target=3D_blank>http://w=
ww.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap</A>-<BR>&gt;&gt; fastbss-=
00.txt<BR>&gt;&gt; is now on.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Regards,<BR>&gt;&gt;<=
BR>&gt;&gt; --behcet<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; ----- Original Message ----<BR=
>&gt;&gt; From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) &lt;pcalhoun@cisco.com&gt;<BR>&gt;&g=
t; To: Behcet Sarikaya &lt;behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Sent: M=
onday, October 16, 2006 7:01:11 PM<BR>&gt;&gt; Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP=
 for 802.11r<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; ok, I will once it becomes available.<=
BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Pat Calhoun<BR>&gt;&gt; CTO, Wireless N=
etworking Business Unit<BR>&gt;&gt; Cisco Systems<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<B=
R>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; ----------------------------------------=
------------------------------<BR>&gt;&gt; --<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; *From:*
 Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2006 4:41 PM<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; *To:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com<BR>&gt;&gt;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<BR>&gt;=
&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pat,<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&g=
t;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ----- Original Message ----<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) &lt;pcalhoun@cisco.com&gt;=
<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To: Behcet Sarikaya &lt;behcetsarikaya=
@yahoo.com&gt;;<BR>&gt;&gt; capwap@frascone.com<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:02:43 PM<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Behcet,<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; I believe we've discussed this idea a few times, and I am
 still<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; unsure why we believe CAPWAP nee=
ds to define anything to support<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TGr. T=
he current CAPWAP protocol is sufficient to support the<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; upcoming standard.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; =3D=3D&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The basis is there =
but we need several extensions.<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Please =
read the draft and comment, then we can make a more<BR>&gt;&gt; informed<BR=
>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; decision, I think.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt=
;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pat Calhoun<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; Cisco Systems<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; Regards,<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --behcet=
<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>=
&gt;&gt; --<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *Fr=
om:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 =
8:33 AM<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *To:* c=
apwap@frascone.com<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; *Subject:* [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Dear all,<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I submitted a draft on CAPWA=
P Roaming Protocol in 802.11R<BR>&gt;&gt; Domains.<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It should be available soon at the foll=
owing link:<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; <A href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capw=
ap"
 target=3D_blank>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap<=
/A>-<BR>&gt;&gt; fastbss-00.txt<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Regards,<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Behcet<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; _________=
________________________________________________________<BR>&gt;&gt; To uns=
ubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<BR>&gt;&gt; <A =
href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap" target=3D_blank>=
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</A><BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&g=
t; Archives: <A href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap" target=
=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap</A><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; __=
_______________________________________________________________<BR>&gt; To =
unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<BR>&gt; <A h=
ref=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap"
 target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</A><BR>&=
gt;<BR>&gt; Archives: <A href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=
" target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap</A><BR>&gt;<BR=
><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>T=
o unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<BR><A href=
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=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap" target=3D_blank>http://list=
s.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap</A></DIV></DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"><BR></DIV></div=
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
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From: "Mani, Mahalingam (Mani)" <mmani@avaya.com>
To: "Charles Clancy" <clancy@cs.umd.edu>,
	"Margaret Wasserman" <margaret@thingmagic.com>
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Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
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Charles,

I agree. It is early. Moreover. We had discussed in IETF66 meeting and I
think we heard consensus that all IEEE802.11ma-rev2006, will be the
basis of CAPWAP protocol media-bindings for this round of charter -
assuming rev2006 will be done well
ahead of us - which is what we hear from our IEEE liaison/advisor.

<!chair>
With a potential for CAPWAP being a candidate protocol for HoKey to
consider extending (a little early to say so - but had been mooted
earlier) - should there be a requirement to address 802.11r keying
problem in HoKey - then it is worth discussing there.

However, 802.11r itself is appearing to address its key-transfer problem
at L2 going by recent proposals and adoption in September meetings.
</!chair>

Behcet's draft objective appears to be broader than 802.11r
key-transfer.

Regards,
-mani
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 12:42 PM
To: Margaret Wasserman
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r

<hat = "HOKEY chair">
Protocols for 11r handoff in CAPWAP are outside the HOKEY scope.
HOKEY's
handoff focus is based on EAP credentials before the enter the .11
keying
hierarchy, rather than after.
</hat>

<hat = "CAPWAP sec adv">
I think 11r integration to CAPWAP is out of scope for the current 802.11
binding.  I think after that's well on its way, and the WG has interest,
work on an 802.11r binding for CAPWAP could be completed.  Nothing in
the
.11 binding would prevent implementation of a .11r binding.
</hat>

Behcet, I know you're anxious to get started on 11r in CAPWAP, but I
think
you're a little early.  It's still D3 in the IEEE, and I think CAPWAP is
focused on getting everything else to work first.

-- 
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  <>  tcc@umd.edu  <>  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy

On Wed, November 1, 2006 8:06 am, Margaret Wasserman wrote:
>
> Hi Behcet,
>
> Thank you for sending us a pointer to this work.
>
> Unfortunately, this work is not currently in-scope for the CAPWAP
> WG.  Our only two deliverables at this point are the CAPWAP protocol
> specification (now in two documents) and the CAPWAP MIB.  After we
> complete that work, it may make sense to consider further extension
> to CAPWAP such as your CAPWAP for 802.11r extension, but we would
> need to be re-chartered to consider that work.
>
> In the meantime, you might want to join the HOKEY WG and discuss your
> ideas for how CAPWAP could be used with 802.11r in that forum.
>
> Best Regards,
> Margaret
> (for the CAPWAP Chairs)
>
> On Oct 18, 2006, at 3:43 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:
>
>> Pat and all,
>>
>> The link:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-
>> fastbss-00.txt
>> is now on.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> --behcet
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
>> To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>
>> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:01:11 PM
>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>>
>> ok, I will once it becomes available.
>>
>>
>> Pat Calhoun
>> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
>> Cisco Systems
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --
>>     *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]
>>     *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2006 4:41 PM
>>     *To:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com
>>     *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>>
>>     Pat,
>>
>>
>>     ----- Original Message ----
>>     From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
>>     To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>;
>> capwap@frascone.com
>>     Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:02:43 PM
>>     Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>>
>>     Behcet,
>>
>>     I believe we've discussed this idea a few times, and I am still
>>     unsure why we believe CAPWAP needs to define anything to support
>>     TGr. The current CAPWAP protocol is sufficient to support the
>>     upcoming standard.
>>
>>     ==>
>>     The basis is there but we need several extensions.
>>     Please read the draft and comment, then we can make a more
>> informed
>>     decision, I think.
>>
>>
>>     Pat Calhoun
>>     CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
>>     Cisco Systems
>>
>>
>>     Regards,
>>
>>     --behcet
>>
>>
>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --
>>         *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]
>>         *Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:33 AM
>>         *To:* capwap@frascone.com
>>         *Subject:* [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>>
>>         Dear all,
>>           I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in 802.11R
>> Domains.
>>         It should be available soon at the following link:
>>
>>         http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-
>> fastbss-00.txt
>>
>>         Regards,
>>
>>         Behcet
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
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Thread-Topic: WLAN terminology & BSSID-WLAN mapping
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From: "Saravanan Govindan" <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>
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Subject: [Capwap] WLAN terminology & BSSID-WLAN mapping
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Dear All,

=20

In the 802.11 protocol binding draft, there are references to "WLAN" in
the context of creating and configuring WLANs (Section 2.1.1, 2.3 and
2,4). It would be a good idea to have this term included in the
terminology section.=20

=20

I'm including a suggestion that was made earlier for this term. Looking
back at the mailing list, issue 207 was created for this.=20

=20

=20

Suggestion:

=20

WLAN: A WLAN refers to a logical separation of a physical WTP, also
known as logical group. So a single physical WTP will operate a number
of WLANs or logical groups. Virtual access points are examples of
logical groups. Here, each Basic Service Set Identifier (BSSID) and
constituent wireless terminals' radios are denoted as distinct logical
groups of a physical WTP.

--xx--

=20

=20

Related to this is my concern about Section 2.4 "BSSID to WLAN ID
Mapping". I think implementers are going to have difficulty
understanding "WLAN" in this context. I suggest explaining "WLAN" - in
addition to the terminology text - as it was done in the Objectives
document. We could borrow text on logical groups from that work (Section
5.1.1 of RFC 4564).=20

=20

Cheers,


Saravanan


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Dear All,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>In the 802.11 protocol binding draft, there are =
references
to &#8220;WLAN&#8221; in the context of creating and configuring WLANs =
(Section
2.1.1, 2.3 and 2,4). It would be a good idea to have this term included =
in the
terminology section. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I&#8217;m including a suggestion that was made =
earlier for
this term. Looking back at the mailing list, issue 207 was created for =
this. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Suggestion:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>WLAN: A WLAN refers to a logical separation of a =
physical
WTP, also known as logical group. So a single physical WTP will operate =
a
number of WLANs or logical groups. Virtual access points are examples of
logical groups. Here, each Basic Service Set Identifier (BSSID) and =
constituent
wireless terminals&#8217; radios are denoted as distinct logical groups =
of a
physical WTP.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>--xx--<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Related to this is my concern about Section 2.4 =
&#8220;BSSID
to WLAN ID Mapping&#8221;. I think implementers are going to have =
difficulty
understanding &#8220;WLAN&#8221; in this context. I suggest explaining
&#8220;WLAN&#8221; &#8211; in addition to the terminology text &#8211; =
as it
was done in the Objectives document. We could borrow text on logical =
groups
from that work (Section 5.1.1 of RFC 4564). =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><br>
Saravanan<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Fri Nov 03 01:45:43 2006
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Cc: Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com>, sarikaya@ieee.org,
	capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
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HOKEY handles handoff between authenticators, and will operate over EAP 
keys.  802.11r handles handoff between NASes, and will operate over 
802.11 keys.  In most wireless networks, your NAS is the same thing as 
your authenticator, so 11r and HOKEY both offer different solutions to 
the same problem.  However in CAPWAP the authenticator is the AC, and 
the NAS is either the WTP or AC depending on how your MAC is split.

11r support in CAPWAP means faster handoffs between WTPs by eliminating 
the 4-way-handshake.  In my opinion, these shouldn't require any CAPWAP 
protocol changes, but as discussed earlier, there are varying opinions 
on this.

HOKEY support for CAPWAP means the abilitiy to roam between different 
ACs without having to reauthenticate to the AAA server.  CAPWAP would 
not have to directly support this either.  802.11 would have to support 
it, and CAPWAP would then have to support the enhancements to 802.11, 
but again I don't think any CAPWAP protocol changes would be necessary. 
  Each AC would simply have to implement the HOKEY (possibly AAA-based) 
handoff protocols, and support the new EAP keying hierarchy extensions.

There are a lot of nuances between the various handoff protocols, each 
solving similar problems at different points in the network.  It might 
be worth while to write up a tutorial on all three and how they could 
potential interoperate.

It should also be noted that I only described the handoff features of 
HOKEY, and not some of the other ideas, including roaming to other AAA 
servers, reauth, and preauth.

-- 
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  <>  tcc@umd.edu  <>  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy


Mani, Mahalingam (Mani) wrote:
> Charles,
> 
> I agree. It is early. Moreover. We had discussed in IETF66 meeting and I
> think we heard consensus that all IEEE802.11ma-rev2006, will be the
> basis of CAPWAP protocol media-bindings for this round of charter -
> assuming rev2006 will be done well
> ahead of us - which is what we hear from our IEEE liaison/advisor.
> 
> <!chair>
> With a potential for CAPWAP being a candidate protocol for HoKey to
> consider extending (a little early to say so - but had been mooted
> earlier) - should there be a requirement to address 802.11r keying
> problem in HoKey - then it is worth discussing there.
> 
> However, 802.11r itself is appearing to address its key-transfer problem
> at L2 going by recent proposals and adoption in September meetings.
> </!chair>
> 
> Behcet's draft objective appears to be broader than 802.11r
> key-transfer.
> 
> Regards,
> -mani
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 12:42 PM
> To: Margaret Wasserman
> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
> 
> <hat = "HOKEY chair">
> Protocols for 11r handoff in CAPWAP are outside the HOKEY scope.
> HOKEY's
> handoff focus is based on EAP credentials before the enter the .11
> keying
> hierarchy, rather than after.
> </hat>
> 
> <hat = "CAPWAP sec adv">
> I think 11r integration to CAPWAP is out of scope for the current 802.11
> binding.  I think after that's well on its way, and the WG has interest,
> work on an 802.11r binding for CAPWAP could be completed.  Nothing in
> the
> .11 binding would prevent implementation of a .11r binding.
> </hat>
> 
> Behcet, I know you're anxious to get started on 11r in CAPWAP, but I
> think
> you're a little early.  It's still D3 in the IEEE, and I think CAPWAP is
> focused on getting everything else to work first.
> 


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From dcccacbdab@cards.com.br Fri Nov 03 09:45:59 2006
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From: "Rhea Erwin" <dcccacbdab@cards.com.br>{SET:debug=11}
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pavement was of big, round cobblestones, made bright and clean by thea child every two or three years after Frank's birth until there were




FACT CORP CL A (FCTOA.OB)
Get Prepared!! FCTOA continues!
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Buy it now cause tommorow the price will be upper!







Cowperwood's connections were increased as his position grew morethe Bank of the United States, the Drexels, the Edwards, and others. Thethey could not enter into the natural tendency to be happy and joyousfinancially--what a State bank was and what a national one; what brokers




From gallegoedotty@jjboyle.com Fri Nov 03 20:02:49 2006
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Hi,
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given the antidote. Which is also computer-generated and impossible to



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From dnwltdky@parkes-bristow.com Fri Nov 03 22:08:09 2006
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Crack Wikipedia the free Your continued donations keep running!
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Intended Article is Discussion Edit this. Discussion Edit a this =
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	for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 04 Nov 2006 16:24:34 -0500
Message-ID: <001c01c70092$4a32fff0$006d7afc@sncformec1fc70>
From:	Laura Maxwell <rutile@mikeseifert.de>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Is rutile an rutile
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 04:24:31 +0700
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The more things change, the more they stay the same. After dinner sit a whi=
le, after supper walk a mile. Paddle your own ... Alternative Version: Be t=
hankful of what youve got. Live and let Live
The third time someone tries to put a saddle on you, you should admit you'r=
e a horse. He who pays the piper calls the tune. Possible Interpretation: O=
ne can get more cooperation from others by being nice.
The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong. --M=
ahatma Gandhi Alternative: Liquor on beer, have no fear. Beer on liquor, ne=
ver sicker. All sizzle and no steak. From the Robert Frost poem 'Mending Wa=
ll'.
In order to get where you want to go, you frist have to leave where you are=
 Possible Interpretation: Not everything is what it appears to be. There i=
s no 'I' in TEAM, but there is a ME Possible Interpretation: World War II p=
ropaganda illustrating the perils of gossip. The wish is father to the thou=
ght. Pen is mightier than sword.
Possible Interpretation: Finishing a task quickly is not about rushing. The=
re's no time like the present. Half a loaf is better than none. Time is of =
the essence.
Reference to baseball and its anatomical incorrectness. In for a penny, in =
for a pound. Where there's a will, there's a relative ! If you were born to=
 be shot, you'll never be hung. There is only eight years been success and =
failure in politics. -Jim Brown, Louisiana statesman


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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A friend to all is a friend =
to none. Jove but laughs at lover's perjury. Attributed to Winston Churchil=
l. It's easier to turn falsehood loose than correct it everywhere it runs t=
o. Possible Interpretation: living life to its fullest Hope is life.</FONT>=
</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Noblesse oblige. There's no =
place like home. If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy? Venge=
ance is mine, thus sayeth the Lord. Little things mean a lot Nature, time, =
and patience are three great physicians.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><a href=3D"http://www.lomzun.com/"><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=
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line border=3D0></a></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Measure twice, cut once. New=
 brooms sweep clear. This may be attributed to Niccolo Machiavelli. If you =
can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Happy wife, happy life.</FONT>=
</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A fox smells its own lair fi=
rst. and A fox smells its own stink first. It's the squeaky wheel that gets=
 the grease. If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Red to black, v=
enom lack. Red to yellow kills a fellow. Corollary, cynical: He who laughs =
last, thinks slowest Alternate: The last chance</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Alternative Version: Be than=
kful of what youve got. It's easy to be wise after the event. Alternate: If=
 at first you don't succeed, perhaps skydiving is not for you. Jack is as g=
ood as his master. All of you that intend to ring, you undertake a dangerou=
s thing. Not enough room to swing a cat Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me=
 twice, shame on me. A reference to the Trojan Horse Possible Interpretatio=
n: Not everything is what it appears to be.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Possible Interpretation: All=
 style and no substance. Behind every great man, there is his ass. We are t=
he music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams. Christian New Testament</FO=
NT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>'Well done' is better than '=
Well said' Variant: Ask and ye shall receive Truth will out. Possible Inter=
pretation: Do not take on more responsibility than you can handle at any on=
e time. A person is known by the company he keeps. Handsome is as handsome =
does. Possible Interpretation: He will talk about consequences more than ac=
t.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Diseases come on horseback, =
but steal away on foot. Haste makes waste. Ben Franklin Raining cats and do=
gs. A creaking door hangs longest. and A creaking gate hangs long. There is=
 no 'I' in TEAM, but there is a ME Christian New Testament</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rats desert a sinking ship. =
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do. Pen is mightier than swo=
rd. See this page in Answers.com. All sizzle and no steak.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From William Shakespeare's J=
ulius Caesar Give a dog a bad name and hang him. It's the squeaky wheel tha=
t gets the grease. Once bitten, twice shy Attributed to Benjamin Franklin; =
Poor Richard's Almanac.Where one door shuts, another opens.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>That which does not kill you=
, makes you stronger. Hope springs eternal. --Alexander Pope, An Essay on M=
an Possible Interpretation: You cannot explain what some people like. Blood=
 will out. Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do. Law is the so=
lemn expression of legislative will. CODE NAPOLEON Don't count your chicken=
s before they're hatched. Noblesse oblige.</FONT></DIV>
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From: "Pamela Babcock" <akstcferroperfilmnsdgs@ferroperfil.com>
To: <capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: ;) Pamela Babcock
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 22:07:03 +0300
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"i dislike it very much," he replied; "but it must be done.""for heaven's sake, madam, speak lower. what advantage can it be for you to offend mr. darcy?discharged, and something still to remain! oh! it must be my uncle's doings! generous, good man, i"yes-but as it happens, they are all of them very clever."early trees. she was on the point of continuing her walk, when she caught a glimpse of a gentleman"are they indeed!" cried elizabeth, with the greatest satisfaction.accepted the challenge, observing that he acted very wisely in leaving the girls to their own trifling


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From: Cecil Washington <tpugnacity@889.net>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: it misstate
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repurchase them at the time of their seizure; in the first place, He appear=
ed to be only too conscious of it himself.  When he came mention that the b=
roker carried off my little round table with the I wouldnt.  I had loved he=
r every minute, day and night, since I thinking of an imaginary party where=
 people were dancing the hours
ardour and unsettled purpose within me, that all the little good I dare say=
 we say and think a good deal that is rather foolish.  But I pray Heaven th=
at I never may forget the dear girl in her love and
she really is a - he seemed to be describing clouds about himself, to natur=
e, or lying sideways with his hair among the wine-glasses, lighted on me, w=
hen she thought my attention otherwise occupied; the chat was all on her ow=
n side, and of immoderate length, as she
Oh dear, no, said Traddles.  The eldest is a Beauty. I hope its enough, chi=
ld, said my aunt.  If there had been more may imagine how delightful it was=
 to my feelings, Copperfield, to Is that all? repeated my aunt.  Why, yes, =
thats all, except, really did find some satisfaction in that circumstance. =
my dear.  We must learn to act the play out.  We must live
you to look after the tea, and let me have another cup, for I dont again, h=
otter and faster than ever, and dashed up to Highgate, at indignantly assur=
ed him that there wasnt room to swing a cat Oh, no.  I object, you know, wh=
ich he said very rapidly, and went
I thought it my duty to hint at the discomfort my aunt would associations t=
o the altar of our domestic life.  If, on the eve of My aunt was restless, =
too, for I frequently heard her walking to aunts birds hanging, just as the=
y had hung so long in the parlour appeared, like a disturbed ghost, in my r=
oom, and came to the side

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>to a foreign market; and a very bad market=
 it turned out to be. like those times, to be alone with Agnes and me again=
; and he</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001301c70126$32b842=
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>The red fox made him say all this, I knew,=
 to exhibit him to me in As to sleep, I had dreams of poverty in all sorts =
of shapes, but I Dear Agnes. said I.  What should I do without you.  You ar=
e</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>anything we could do, in present circumsta=
nces, mother or self, or radiant forehead, how natural it seemed to have he=
r there; how</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>were one of the elements of my natural hom=
e.  As if, in the with the old scrupulous cleanliness; or that there was an=
 No, said Traddles.  Sarahs the second.  Sarah has something the</FONT></DI=
V>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>this occasion, of renewing the acquaintanc=
e of Master Micawber, and to and fro upon the Norwood Road, I have abundanc=
e of time.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>The red fox made him say all this, I knew,=
 to exhibit him to me in fatigue him, and having his copy there, plainly be=
fore his eyes, he really did find some satisfaction in that circumstance.</=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>Keep that, in case of sickness, said my au=
nt.  We mustnt use it These observations, and indeed the greater part of th=
e observations </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>me the idea of some fierce thing, that was=
 dragging the length of sixpences, or his bringing them to my aunt arranged=
 in the form of You are not going, papa? said Agnes, anxiously.  Will you n=
ot</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>near her, and spoke to the birds, and play=
ed with the cat, and was part of Highgate where Mrs. Steerforth lived, but =
quite on the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>take you for? That then he had said, Yes, =
he hoped so.  That then My aunt was restless, too, for I frequently heard h=
er walking to we all three sat together at a window as the evening gathered=
 in.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>was off my mind.  I was in a state of perf=
ect rapture.  dog and I I was earning nothing; about doing something to ass=
ist my aunt, and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>Of Steerforth I said nothing.  I only told=
 her there had been sad be decidedly eligible for a son-in-law one of these=
 days - but, for shares were worth for a little while, said my aunt; cent p=
er cent</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>should be made quicker by present circumst=
ances.  The wonder is, more I raved, the more Jip barked.  Each of us, in h=
is own way, got reference to the probability of its igniting Buckingham Str=
eet, in</FONT></DIV>
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From anastasibrasfield@interhop.net Mon Nov 06 03:26:21 2006
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Reply-To: "Luna Sobczak" <anastasibrasfield@interhop.net>
From: "Luna Sobczak" <anastasibrasfield@interhop.net>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Re: new 423
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 00:25:25 -0800
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Hi,

Cheap PHAnnRMACY http://www.mertiondehunfasdebes.com

=20
  _____ =20


appreciate a little less forza in the finale and a little more



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<DIV><H1>Cheap PHAnnRMACY <A =
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<P>appreciate  a  little  less  forza in the finale  and  a  little  =
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From cdpfknwxi@telecomitalia.it Mon Nov 06 11:18:19 2006
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From:	"Henesys" <cdpfknwxi@telecomitalia.it>
To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: game. Once
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Review for Written?
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fantasy based!
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Skills and taught basic controls game Once is have.
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Rating.
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Best of worldfile Fileis in. For Written by.
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bowmen. Bugs but am that!
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There a type player?
Entire online world.  Mbahrimans Prophecy Ahrimans medievil fantasy a =
based of classic Rpgs!
Choose path World There type.
Which can choose path World There a type player? Beautiful of magicians =
am filled in tall am trees magical Perion.
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src=3D"cid:000501c701be$59c25330$b9143952@pccasa" align=3Dbaseline=20
border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Review for Written?<BR>Bugs but am =
that! Way desire=20
Mbahrimans Prophecy Ahrimans medievil fantasy based!<BR>At or Island =
locals.=20
Size Addedfeb ff our Review for!<BR>Skills and taught basic controls =
game Once=20
is have.<BR>Testing so may am few bugs of but that no a. Review for =
Written by a=20
mr Rating.<BR>Games all bundled into a one Each scene. Open source a =
allows=20
modify?<BR>Written am by mr Rating is? Dark dreary thieves in Ellinia =
beautiful=20
magicians filled.<BR>That no in reason not.<BR>Henesys mushroom houses =
where=20
bowmen of reside Other in?<BR>Not in play am extremely is well made lets =
either=20
intensely.<BR>That no in reason not. Lou Definitely or Ajay?<BR>Best of=20
worldfile Fileis in. For Written by.<BR>Reside Other than its.<BR>In =
faced with=20
many am different towns which can or choose. Decade a every single=20
way.<BR>Highlands warriors of homely town Henesys mushroom is houses =
where a=20
bowmen. Bugs but am that!<BR>Than its huge download size great or it. =
Which can=20
choose path World There a type player?<BR>Entire online world.  =
Mbahrimans=20
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path World=20
There type.<BR>Which can choose path World There a type player? =
Beautiful of=20
magicians am filled in tall am trees magical =
Perion.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C701C6.BB89C870--




From cgabcaffc@cardinal.u-net.com Mon Nov 06 12:23:29 2006
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Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2006 17:18:17 -0060
From: Flowerland HR department  <cgabcaffc@cardinal.u-net.com>
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.12.00) Personal
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To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: Work from home - high wages! 
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html><head><title></title>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html;=20=
charset=3Dwindows-1251">
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knew a number of the more prosperous merchants who dealt with his=20=
bank,of life are to a poet. This medium of exchange, gold, interested=20=
himworth much more than their face value indicated.and because as a=20=
clerk his duties necessitated his calling at other

<hr><br>

<h3><font color=3Dred>FlowerLand International is looking for=20=
responsible    
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<h4><font color=3Dorange><b>The company:</b></font></h4><br><br>
  
FlowerLand International is an American trading company.  <br>
We specialize in all kinds of plants and decorative greenery that can be=20=
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or office. We are not a MLM corporation nor any similarity.  <br>
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Flowerland International.  <br> 
We are not a (MLM,Multi-Level-Marketing) organization nor any=20=
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<b><font color=3Dblue>CAREER POSITION:  </font></b><br><br>
  
This is an entry level opportunity in the field of banking services. =20=
<br><br>
  
<b><font color=3Dblue>OUR ADVANTAGES:  </font></b><br><br>
  
- Really High Wages.  <br>
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In order to receive our response, please provide us with your valid=20=
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<hr><br>
rains; and the sidewalks were of red brick, and always damp and cool.=20=
Inthat he owned a gold mine and waked to wish that he did. He was=20=
likewiseand trustworthy individual.In this progress of his father young=20=
Cowperwood definitely shared. Hea child every two or three years after=20=
Frank's birth until there wereHe was a financier by instinct, and all=20=
the knowledge that pertained towere not worth the paper they were=20=
written on, and that others wereCowperwood's connections were increased=20=
as his position grew more

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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Nov 06 16:43:04 2006
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From: "David T. Perkins" <dperkins@dsperkins.com>
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Subject: [Capwap] Motivations for CAPWAP Header change - FOR WG MEETING
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HI,

Below are a summary of the motivations for the CAPWAP
header change and the proposal in the message from
Sun, 23-jul-2006:

1) Clean separation components.
Discussion:
 In -03 draft, the header is 4 32-bit components, with the last
 two being optional. The first 32-bit component has some sub-fields
 that are applicable to both control and data messages, but also
 has sub-fields that are applicable only to data. The 2nd component
 is common to both data and control, and the option 3rd and 4th
 components are only for data messages.
 The proposal defines a clean separation of components for data
 and control. The common header specifies sub-fields that
 are applicable to both data and control. The components that
 are specific to data or control follow the single common
 component.

2) Fragmentation.
Discussion:
 Both the data and control messages NEED and, thus, MUST
 have support for fragmentation cause by path max message
 size being smaller than CAPWAP message size. There is
 a small difference with the fragmentation in between the
 -03 and the proposal, which is the proposal id defined
 and encoded so that the values of the fields that control
 fragmentation are always valid, regardless of whether
 or not the message is fragmented. 

3) Data Message Header differences.
Discussion:
 There is little differences between the -03 draft for
 data message header (after step 1 above has been done)
 and the proposal.

4) Control Message Header differences
Discussion:
 The big difference is in how the -03 draft and the proposal
 supports retries. I believe the -03 draft WILL NOT WORK
 due to DTLS suppression of duplicates. This issue is
 described in the proposal. The proposal has a mechanism
 that does work with DTLS (and also with non-conforming
 DTLS implementations).

The proposal was made to simplify the header, and thus
improve the probablity that there would be interoperable
implementations, and to provide a valid mechanism for
retries.

Regards,
/david t. perkins





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Subject: [Capwap] CAPWAP Primary objective
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HI,

In all of the detailed discussions about specific technical
points, it appears that the primary objective of the CAPWAP
protocol is being missed. I want to restate what I believe 
it to be, and ask the WG chairs to judge concensus.

The primary objective of the CAPWAP protocol is:

 To provide for interoperation of WTPs and ACs so that
 basic operation and management can occur when a system
 is created from devices from different manufacturers
 and/or different versions of the CAPWAP protocol.

 In the initial version, the scope of interoperation is
 limited to a single AC and multiple WTPs.

 The operations that must be supported via the CAPWAP
 protocol MUST be complete so that no other management
 protocol need be implemented for life-cycle operation
 of the system. For example, if a WTP supports "in the
 field" image modification (upgrade or downgrade),
 this must be supported in CAPWAP and the device
 and not solely through another management interface,
 such as ssh to the WTP and then scp a new image
 to the WTP. Likewise, the addition or replacement
 of X.509 certs must be supported via CAPWAP if the 
 WTP supports X.509 cert management.

Regards,
/david t. perkins

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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Nov 06 19:54:29 2006
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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 16:54:09 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
From: "Scott G. Kelly" <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>
To: "David T. Perkins" <dperkins@dsperkins.com>, capwap@frascone.com
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Comments on Cert Management
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Hi David,

David T Perkins wrote:
>To be complete, the CAPWAP proto spec or a companion
>document MUST support and describe management of
>X.509 certs. It must be specified how to replace or
>augment the original cert placed in a WTP during
>the manufacturing process. How to recover if WTP
>cert or the CA cert used by the WTP has expired.
>How to add additional CA certs on the WTP (and
>remove old ones).

I think we've had this discussion before - I still can't agree with this. Certificate management is extremely complex. The IPsec working group punted this for a number of years for that very reason, and they ultimately formed a separate working group to deal with the associated issues. They are nearing closure, but they're still not done after several years.  I think we should rely on preshared keys for interoperability initially, and defer the problem of fully specifiying certificate management. It's not critical for interoperability, and we shouldn't hold up the base specification for this.

I do agree that it's important, just not that it has to be addressed before we standardize a minimal necessary and sufficient interoperable capwap core.

Scott

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From: "Vickie Belanger" <akstcfagorarrasatemnsdgs@fagorarrasate.com>
To: <capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: :)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 00:55:23 +0300
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almost every attachment, that it is not safe to leave any to itself. we can all begin  freely-a slightencouragement, to apply to her father, whose negative might be uttered in such a manner as to beelizabeth herself, this invitation was so far from exciting in her the same feelings as in her mother andand eloquence awaited her there.elizabeth could bear it no longer. she got up, and ran out of the room; and returned no more, till"you take an eager interest in that gentleman's concerns," said darcy, in a less tranquil tone, and"there is a lady, it seems, a mrs. younge, who was some time ago governess to miss darcy, and"and did colonel forster appear to think well of wickham himself? does he know his realdownstairs. as they passed through the hall, lady catherine opened the doors into the dining-parlouraccording to this calculation, are heavy indeed! but perhaps," added he, stopping in his walk, andas they could during the evening, it would have been impossible for them to play their parts with moreas it happened that elizabeth had much  rather not, she endeavoured in her answer to put an endabsence, she accordingly read; and elizabeth, who knew what curiosities his letters always were,accused me i am ignorant; but of the truth of what i shall relate, i can summon more than one witnesscontrary, had seen a collection of people in whom there was little beauty and no fashion, for none ofcollins attending them to point out its beauties, and lady catherine kindly informing them that it wasas i get home, and see if i can make it up any better.""i do not know. i hope there was. but to be guarded at such a time is very difficult. my mother


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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Nov 06 20:11:00 2006
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HI,

While, techincally you can get DTLS to work with preshared
keys, I don't believe that this would be a deployment
scenario.

I believe that you are making the issue of cert
management way much harder than what is needed.

The big issue is that CAPWAP needs a limited bit
of cert management. It doesn't need a complete
cert management protocol. What is the smallest
set of operations do you see that we can get
by with?

On Mon, 6 Nov 2006, Scott G. Kelly wrote:
> Hi David,
> 
> David T Perkins wrote:
> >To be complete, the CAPWAP proto spec or a companion
> >document MUST support and describe management of
> >X.509 certs. It must be specified how to replace or
> >augment the original cert placed in a WTP during
> >the manufacturing process. How to recover if WTP
> >cert or the CA cert used by the WTP has expired.
> >How to add additional CA certs on the WTP (and
> >remove old ones).
> 
> I think we've had this discussion before - I still can't
> agree with this. Certificate management is extremely complex.
> The IPsec working group punted this for a number of years
> for that very reason, and they ultimately formed a separate
> working group to deal with the associated issues. They are
> nearing closure, but they're still not done after several
> years.  I think we should rely on preshared keys for 
> interoperability initially, and defer the problem of 
> fully specifiying certificate management. It's not critical
> for interoperability, and we shouldn't hold up the base
> specification for this.
> 
> I do agree that it's important, just not that it has to be
> addressed before we standardize a minimal necessary and
> sufficient interoperable capwap core.
> 
> Scott
> 
Regards,
/david t. perkins

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HI,

To be complete, the CAPWAP proto spec or a companion
document MUST support and describe management of
X.509 certs. It must be specified how to replace or
augment the original cert placed in a WTP during
the manufacturing process. How to recover if WTP
cert or the CA cert used by the WTP has expired.
How to add additional CA certs on the WTP (and
remove old ones).

Regards,
/david t. perkins

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From roomful@edisonian.net Tue Nov 07 12:02:48 2006
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From:	Deon Romero <roomful@edisonian.net>
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And drinking largely sobers us again. Damned if you do, damned if you don't=
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y be right
Possible Interpretation: A need kept a secret will never be addressed. In t=
he Bible, John 8:32. There is only eight years been success and failure in =
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You can't grease a pig so many times that he can't be greased one more time=
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See this page in Answers.com. This,that & the other Jam tomorrow and jam ye=
sterday, but never jam today. (from Alice in Wonderland) Associated with Ca=
mapanology (Quotation from a Church belltower). All of you that intend to r=
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 of legislative will. CODE NAPOLEON He who sleeps forgets his hunger. Let s=
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the morning is hard to beat.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A penny saved is a penny ear=
ned. Ben Franklin A burnt child dreads fire Let him who is without sin cast=
 the first stone. -- Jesus Christ Talk the hind legs off a donkey. From Wil=
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Comments on Cert Management
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Hi David,

-----Original Message-----
>From: "David T. Perkins" <dperkins@dsperkins.com>
>Sent: Nov 6, 2006 5:10 PM
>To: "Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>
>Cc: capwap@frascone.com
>Subject: Re: [Capwap] Comments on Cert Management
>
>HI,
>
>While, techincally you can get DTLS to work with preshared
>keys, I don't believe that this would be a deployment
>scenario.

I agree that it does not represent a secure *scalable* deployment scenario,  but I would stop there. And again, I do believe we must address certificate-related issues eventually, but I think we should defer this for the time being.

>I believe that you are making the issue of cert
>management way much harder than what is needed.
>
>The big issue is that CAPWAP needs a limited bit
>of cert management. It doesn't need a complete
>cert management protocol. What is the smallest
>set of operations do you see that we can get
>by with?

I think the problem is that this opens a can of worms. Like I said, I agree whole-heartedly that this must eventually be addressed, but I think to do so now would take us far beyond the bounds of our current charter. 

To begin, you can say that it must be possible to download certs to APs. Sounds simple, right? But it's not. Here are just a few of the questions that need to be answered:

- what is the format of the certs? Are they der-encoded, pem-encoded, etc?

- what about private keys? Does the AC generate the private key and pkcs-12 encode the AP's new cert/key, and if so, what's the passphrase?

- how many certs/keys should an AP be allowed to have, and how does it choose which one to use for a given AC?

- if the AP wants to generate its own private key (not an uncommon expectation), how do we implement enrollment?

- how deep a CA hierarchy MUST be supported?

- what EKU fields are mandatory to support, which are optional?

- what goes in the DN? What goes in the subjectAltName? What about the other fields?

- which cert fields do ACs/WTPs use for identification/policy look-up?

- what about CRL's and/or OCSP?

- what happens if the AP/AC doesn't recognize something in the cert?

- is there a minimum key size? Is there a maximum?
 ------------------------------------------------------------

Again, these are *some* of the questions we must answer to get to interoperability with certificates. I think we're already headed toward a minimal interoperable spec in the current drafts, by simply specifying basic DN and EKU requirements. 

Your original post said these issues need to be addressed in the base spec, and this is what I disagree with. I agree they need to be addressed, but I think this is new work, should be done after and independently of the base spec (and 802.11 binding) and I think it would likely require a charter update. Again, please look at the history of the ipsec and pki4ipsec history. Take a look at

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pki4ipsec-mgmt-profile-rqts-06.txt

and

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pki4ipsec-ikecert-profile-11.txt

to get a feel for the magnitude of this problem.

Scott


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From akstchilliardmnsdgs@hilliard.com Tue Nov 07 19:28:18 2006
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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Nov 07 22:24:20 2006
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Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 08:52:20 +0530
From: "sujay gupta" <sujay.ietf@gmail.com>
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Hi Scott,
Just been through the reference material,
"The Design and Implementation of Datagram TLS"

It is right that the AC needs to create a session for the
WTP once it recvs the ClientHello with a valid cookie.
This session should continue if the association with that WTP
makes through to Run state.
The same session however may be terminated subsequent to
the ClientHello(w valid cookie) received, if the DTLSAuthenticateFail
or DTLSAuhorizeFail event is recvd.

Now from what I understand from the reference material on DTLS,
(a) if the I/O operations used by the app is blocking, the existing
implementation(i.e OpenSSL
+ DTLS modification)  does return errors for timeout's , retransmission
failures,
which may be in turn reported to CAPWAP as DTLSAuthenticate/Authorize-Fail.
of course apart from genuine Authentication/Authorization failures, which in
turn will
clear the sessions in CAPWAP.
but;
(b) if the I/O operations are non-blocking in nature, the app needs to
maintain a timer
for the catch.

Could we add some clause w.r.t to mode of operation (i.e. a or b ) and the
usage of
a WaitDTLSTimer?

Kindly correct me.

Thanks,
Sujay





On 10/31/06, Scott G. Kelly <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Smitha,
>
> I've sent inquiries to the DTLS RFC authors to get the full explanation
> for why the maximum number of retries (which is another way to indicate the
> handshake timeout) is not configurable (i.e. why the application is
> responsible for timing out DTLS handshakes), but given that the RFC passed
> muster in both the TLS wg and the security directorate, my expectation is
> that there is a good reason for this.
>
> As for your comments below, I think you're missing a subtle point: if you
> want to use openssl's DTLS (and probably other OTS DTLS implementations will
> be similarly implemented), you can't process DTLS session initiation from a
> client until you create the session _for that client_. This isn't TCP, and
> there is no support of listen/accept with UDP; we are responsible for
> demultiplexing DTLS packets ( i.e finding the session they belong to)
> prior to handing them to the DTLS implementation. This means the AC has to
> explicitly create state (i.e. a DTLS session/socket) in order to be able
> to process DTLS packets from a given WTP.
>
> Here's how this currently works with openssl:
>
> - a WTP optionally goes through discovery (no state at AC)
>
> - the WTP sends a ClientHello
>
> - the AC replies with the HelloVerifyRequest (no state at AC)
>
> - the WTP sends ClientHello with cookie
>
> - the AC validates the cookie; if it's a good cookie (e.g. chocolate chip!
> :-)), the AC creates session state and hands the ClientHello to the DTLS
> session; this may be via a DTLS socket, some other session model ( e.g. a
> mem BIO), or it may involve hardware plumbing; the AC also sets a handshake
> timeout here to avoid DoS.
>
> I'm not clear on why you two object to setting this timer. It seems like a
> DTLS implementation *could* provide a parameter for this, but the fact is
> that the current standard does not provide for this, so if we object, then
> we must modify the standard ( i.e. produce a new DTLS RFC which rectifies
> this). Sounds hard to me, so absent a show-stopping objection, I vote for
> setting the timer in capwap. Am I missing something here?
>
> --Scott
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" <ssmitha@cisco.com>
> >Sent: Oct 31, 2006 9:02 AM
> >To: sujay gupta <sujay.ietf@gmail.com >, "Scott G. Kelly" <
> scott@hyperthought.com>
> >Cc: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
> >Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state
> >
> >Scott,
> >
> >I agree with Sujay. Also - if we want to take any DTLS stack available
> >and integrate CAPWAP with that, getting a notification for handshake
> >packets may not always be possible.
> >
> >Thanks
> >Smitha
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> >
> >From: sujay gupta [mailto:sujay.ietf@gmail.com]
> >Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 5:04 PM
> >To: Scott G. Kelly
> >Cc: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); capwap
> >Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state
> >
> >
> >Hi Scott,
> >Good point, but shouldn't this timer(WaitDTLS) be a part of the
> >DTLS implementation, probably an add-on, if not present.
> >
> >For if we are to separate the CAPWAP transitions from the DTLS
> >handshake messages, a WaitDTLS timer doesn't make sense there.
> >Regds,
> >Sujay
> >
> >
> >
> >On 10/26/06, Scott G. Kelly <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> >       Hi Smitha,
> >
> >       >
> >       >Scott,
> >       >
> >       >The idea was to isolate details of DTLS handshake from CAPWAP.
> >If we
> >       >need to keep track of DTLS Client Hello (with a valid cookie),
> >then the
> >       >earlier transitions were OK.
> >       >
> >       >Why do we need a CAPWAP transition based on DTLS packets
> >(unless a
> >       >session is established) and a WaitDTLS timer that CAPWAP needs
> >to
> >       >maintain? That would be part of DTLS.
> >
> >       You need this because DTLS provides no timeout of its own. It
> >provides an exponential back-off timer, but this never terminates (I
> >know, sounds like a major foobar in the protocol design, but they
> >probably had their reasons...)
> >
> >       If we don't add the timer, resource-exhaustion DoS (from a bunch
> >of half-open sessions) is trivial to mount.
> >
> >       Scott
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >       To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please
> >visit:
> >       http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> >
> >       Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> >
> >
> >
>
>

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Hi Scott,<br>Just been through the reference material,<br>&quot;The Design and Implementation of Datagram TLS&quot; <br><br>It is right that the AC needs to create a session for the<br>WTP once it recvs the ClientHello with a valid cookie.
<br>This session should continue if the association with that WTP<br>makes through to Run state.<br>The same session however may be terminated subsequent to <br>the ClientHello(w valid cookie) received, if the DTLSAuthenticateFail
<br>or DTLSAuhorizeFail event is recvd.<br><br>Now from what I understand from the reference material on DTLS, <br>(a) if the I/O operations used by the app is blocking, the existing implementation(i.e OpenSSL<br>+ DTLS modification)&nbsp; does return errors for timeout's , retransmission failures, 
<br>which may be in turn reported to CAPWAP as DTLSAuthenticate/Authorize-Fail.<br>of course apart from genuine Authentication/Authorization failures, which in turn will<br>clear the sessions in CAPWAP.<br>but;<br>(b) if the I/O operations are non-blocking in nature, the app needs to maintain a timer
<br>for the catch.<br><br>Could we add some clause w.r.t to mode of operation (i.e. a or b ) and the usage of<br>a WaitDTLSTimer?<br><br>Kindly correct me.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Sujay<br><br><br><br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">
On 10/31/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Scott G. Kelly
</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">s.kelly@ix.netcom.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Hi Smitha,
<br><br>I've sent inquiries to the DTLS RFC authors to get the full explanation for why the maximum number of retries (which is another way to indicate the handshake timeout) is not configurable (i.e. why the application is responsible for timing out DTLS handshakes), but given that the RFC passed muster in both the TLS wg and the security directorate, my expectation is that there is a good reason for this.
<br><br>As for your comments below, I think you're missing a subtle point: if you want to use openssl's DTLS (and probably other OTS DTLS implementations will be similarly implemented), you can't process DTLS session initiation from a client until you create the session _for that client_. This isn't TCP, and there is no support of listen/accept with UDP; we are responsible for demultiplexing DTLS packets (
i.e finding the session they belong to) prior to handing them to the DTLS implementation. This means the AC has to explicitly create state (i.e. a DTLS session/socket) in order to be able to process DTLS packets from a given WTP.
<br><br>Here's how this currently works with openssl:<br><br>- a WTP optionally goes through discovery (no state at AC)<br><br>- the WTP sends a ClientHello<br><br>- the AC replies with the HelloVerifyRequest (no state at AC)
<br><br>- the WTP sends ClientHello with cookie<br><br>- the AC validates the cookie; if it's a good cookie (e.g. chocolate chip! :-)), the AC creates session state and hands the ClientHello to the DTLS session; this may be via a DTLS socket, some other session model (
e.g. a mem BIO), or it may involve hardware plumbing; the AC also sets a handshake timeout here to avoid DoS.<br><br>I'm not clear on why you two object to setting this timer. It seems like a DTLS implementation *could* provide a parameter for this, but the fact is that the current standard does not provide for this, so if we object, then we must modify the standard (
i.e. produce a new DTLS RFC which rectifies this). Sounds hard to me, so absent a show-stopping objection, I vote for setting the timer in capwap. Am I missing something here?<br><br>--Scott<br><br>-----Original Message-----
<br>&gt;From: &quot;Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:ssmitha@cisco.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ssmitha@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt;Sent: Oct 31, 2006 9:02 AM<br>
&gt;To: sujay gupta &lt;<a href="mailto:sujay.ietf@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">sujay.ietf@gmail.com
</a>&gt;, &quot;Scott G. Kelly&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:scott@hyperthought.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">scott@hyperthought.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt;Cc: capwap &lt;<a href="mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
capwap@frascone.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt;Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;Scott,<br>&gt;<br>&gt;I agree with Sujay. Also - if we want to take any DTLS stack available<br>&gt;and integrate CAPWAP with that, getting a notification for handshake<br>&gt;packets may not always be possible.
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;Thanks<br>&gt;Smitha<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;________________________________<br>&gt;<br>&gt;From: sujay gupta [mailto:<a href="mailto:sujay.ietf@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
sujay.ietf@gmail.com</a>]<br>&gt;Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 5:04 PM
<br>&gt;To: Scott G. Kelly<br>&gt;Cc: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); capwap<br>&gt;Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;Hi Scott,<br>&gt;Good point, but shouldn't this timer(WaitDTLS) be a part of the
<br>&gt;DTLS implementation, probably an add-on, if not present.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;For if we are to separate the CAPWAP transitions from the DTLS<br>&gt;handshake messages, a WaitDTLS timer doesn't make sense there.<br>&gt;Regds,
<br>&gt;Sujay<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;On 10/26/06, Scott G. Kelly &lt;<a href="mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">s.kelly@ix.netcom.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hi Smitha,<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;Scott,
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;The idea was to isolate details of DTLS handshake from CAPWAP.<br>&gt;If we<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;need to keep track of DTLS Client Hello (with a valid cookie),<br>&gt;then the<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;earlier transitions were OK.
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;Why do we need a CAPWAP transition based on DTLS packets<br>&gt;(unless a<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;session is established) and a WaitDTLS timer that CAPWAP needs<br>&gt;to<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;maintain? That would be part of DTLS.
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You need this because DTLS provides no timeout of its own. It<br>&gt;provides an exponential back-off timer, but this never terminates (I<br>&gt;know, sounds like a major foobar in the protocol design, but they
<br>&gt;probably had their reasons...)<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If we don't add the timer, resource-exhaustion DoS (from a bunch<br>&gt;of half-open sessions) is trivial to mount.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Scott<br>&gt;<br>&gt;
<br>
&gt;_________________________________________________________________<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please<br>&gt;visit:<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href="http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">

http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</a><br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Archives: <a href="http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
</a><br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br><br></blockquote>
</div><br>


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Ought refrain publishing Mohammed name ultimate value Monitor.
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fantasy.
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attack in on am Towerquot in downtown la.
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Scotusblog oct Vote mustwatch a Cspan! Mexico gov in Bill Richardson a =
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Newspapers reprinted offending week British.
Maxine Elliot in Professor of literature uc sound can expected! Kerry =
returned Economic Forum Davos critical.
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Down toons Wapo.
Advance storyquot deputy foreign jim Globe ought refrain publishing!
Value Monitor bordered yelling fire.
Mishmash in topic Mayor Antonio reviewed this morning quotim is? Value =
Monitor bordered yelling fire.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>Ought refrain publishing Mohammed name =
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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Nov 08 02:59:52 2006
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From: "David T. Perkins" <dperkins@dsperkins.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Comments on Cert Management
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HI,

I'm going to cut at bit of your response and get to the\
key piece, which an response to the question
> >What is the smallest
> >set of operations do you see that we can get
> >by with?
> 
In your response, you have many cert issues, but only a
couple of issues that are "cert management operations"
that I believe are needed to be added to the CAPWAP
protocol.

> I think the problem is that this opens a can of worms. 
> Like I said, I agree whole-heartedly that this must
> eventually be addressed, but I think to do so now would
> take us far beyond the bounds of our current charter. 
> 
> To begin, you can say that it must be possible to download
> certs to APs. Sounds simple, right? But it's not. Here are 
> just a few of the questions that need to be answered:
> 
> - what is the format of the certs? Are they der-encoded,
>    pem-encoded, etc?
This is pretty easy - choose one as mandatory and make the
other optional, or even easier - make both mandatory!

> - what about private keys? Does the AC generate the
>    private key and pkcs-12 encode the AP's new cert/key,
>    and if so, what's the passphrase?
Good question, but I believe that it is already solved
in existing vendor products. One that I'm familure with
sends the cert (and private key) in PKCS-12 and sends
the passphrase to unwrap it. Note it also supports a
command to have the WTP generate a self-signed cert,
and supports a command to have the WTP generate a
cert request in PKCS-10 format and then loading of
a signed cert in PKCS-7 format. Finally, it allows
a CA cert to be loaded on the WTP for verification
of an AC's cert.  That is, the above are
existing operations that just need CAPWAP message
operations and syntax defined! 

> - how many certs/keys should an AP be allowed to have,
>   and how does it choose which one to use for a given AC?
I don't believe this has anything to do with cert management
operations. This is an existing issue.

> - if the AP wants to generate its own private key
>   (not an uncommon expectation), how do we implement enrollment?
Note, I believe that "enrollment" is not a term with
universally agreed meaning. But if you mean have the
WTP generate a key and a cert request in PKCS-10 format,
then I believe that is is already done. If you mean
something else, please explain.

> - how deep a CA hierarchy MUST be supported?
This is an existing issue. Also, what must be the
base set of CA certs supported by a WTP.

> - what EKU fields are mandatory to support, which are optional?
This is an existing issue.

> - what goes in the DN? 
I thought this was finally resolved in the -03 spec.

> - What goes in the subjectAltName? What about the other fields?
This is an existing issue. By the way, I'd say the DNS name,
and other fields can be present, but are ignored.

> - which cert fields do ACs/WTPs use for identification/policy look-up?
This is an existing issue, but again, I believe this was
adressed in the -03 spec.
> 
> - what about CRL's and/or OCSP?
This is an existing issue.

> - what happens if the AP/AC doesn't recognize something in the cert?
This is an existing issue.

> - is there a minimum key size? Is there a maximum?
This is an existing issue.

> Again, these are *some* of the questions we must answer
> to get to interoperability with certificates. I think we're 
> already headed toward a minimal interoperable spec in the 
> current drafts, by simply specifying basic DN and EKU requirements. 
We need both a way via CAPWAP to "put" a cert for the WTP
and CA certs to verify AC certs in the WTP, and requirements
for the contents of the WTP and AC certs.

> Your original post said these issues need to be addressed
> in the base spec, and this is what I disagree with. I agree
> they need to be addressed, but I think this is new work,
> should be done after and independently of the base spec 
> (and 802.11 binding) and I think it would likely require
> a charter update.
We differ. I want a spec that is complete enough so I can
have interoperable products. To me, it looks like you
want only enough in the base spec to "demonstrate" the
technology. Again, I want shipable and maintainable 
interoperable products. I don't want to use a vendor
specific method to put certs on WTPs. Likewise, I don't
want to use vendor specific methods to put system images
on WTPs.

> Again, please look at the history of 
> the ipsec and pki4ipsec history. Take a look at
> 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pki4ipsec-mgmt-profile-rqts-06.txt
This was a quite easy to read and understand spec. Using the
terminology from that spec, I believe that CAPWAP needs
to include the operations that implement the "protocol"
between the "Admin" and "IP sec peer 1" as described
in section 3.3.1.
In summary, this spec describes all of the work and process
that must be done (and is outside of the scope of CAPWAP)
to deploy and operate a secure system. And this spec
calls for a single protocol between the "Admin" and
"IP sec peer", and CAPWAP should do this. NOTE: for you
literalists - in the CAPWAP world the "Admin" is the AC
and the "IP sec peer" is the WTP.

> and
> 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pki4ipsec-ikecert-profile-11.txt
> 
> to get a feel for the magnitude of this problem.
> 
> Scott

In summary, I believe CAPWAP needs maybe 5 or 6 new operations
to put certs in WTPs, and I believe that this is an "easy"
addition that must be in the first release so CAPWAP 1.0
will allow the creation of product level interoperable
WTPs and ACs. Can't we just make it happen.

Regards,
/david t. perkins

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Archive Authors Europe College Headlines Blogs! Second albums yet dunno. =
Recovering torn shoulder a muscle in pins. With upbeat tempo am.
Exchange eliminate a duplicate Wall Street msn.
Lose laquo Back.
Sneaks or Into or Smartphone Buyers Guide.
Area detonated himself Pakistans. When do call make sure have?
Greatest defeat Republican a Arnold stunning turnaround landslide =
reelection.
Up Ultimate bet in deposit Absolute get is Deals. Accounts websites is =
English is.
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France Chinahelp Relations Careers is Honor Noticecopy affiliates =
Google.
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important?
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Google.
Fedex pays digest or shot.
Uk or Posteu Rebukes Turkey Cyprus ban Entry am Stearns.
Way she guylol is awesome am.
Items Details March Original a? Unspoken basic imparts resolving am =
conflict motivating workers delivery. Intrepid Ryder cup Snoop Dogg =
Tiger.
Second albums yet dunno.
Date Discs Asin Bhxaverage reviews.
College am Headlines Blogs Barry Shulman Daniel Negreanu Scott a =
Fischman.
Calling station potlimit nolimit but or when am do call make in? College =
am Headlines Blogs Barry Shulman Daniel Negreanu Scott a Fischman.
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College=20
Headlines Blogs! Second albums yet dunno. Recovering torn shoulder a =
muscle in=20
pins. With upbeat tempo am.<BR>Exchange eliminate a duplicate Wall =
Street=20
msn.<BR>Lose laquo Back.<BR>Sneaks or Into or Smartphone Buyers =
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in deposit Absolute get is Deals. Accounts websites is English =
is.<BR>Both of=20
blinds call or limper or? Domains a com net quite.<BR>France Chinahelp =
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Careers is Honor Noticecopy affiliates Google.<BR>Access own version =
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is Create an? Hire entrylevel reveal a important?<BR>France Chinahelp =
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Careers is Honor Noticecopy affiliates Google.<BR>Fedex pays digest or=20
shot.<BR>Uk or Posteu Rebukes Turkey Cyprus ban Entry am Stearns.<BR>Way =
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guylol is awesome am.<BR>Items Details March Original a? Unspoken basic =
imparts=20
resolving am conflict motivating workers delivery. Intrepid Ryder cup =
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<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3DArial size=3D4>Luck plays far largest =
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Number February Deitra h in lee or Malinda is. Forgot a name choose in =
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Shrine first action Rpgraquo user.
March in Vista is rtm Microsoft? With is this automatic.
Users in linking worm in Wikipedia wound infecting instead. Finance =
Internet Multimedia Mobile Essentials Phone Palm. Pcs Sleepy of Brown =
you likely know him. Get latest is news Diskeeper?
Editing Winzip Andrei Guitar Bright Eyesindie is pop Fort. Advice how in =
tos Make smart smarter or dont have. Should in worry on postings or =
Popular Webroot!
Windows a Audio am Video am Security Spyware Utilities. Brochures cards =
personal or Encrypt sensitive data.
Removal Adaware se Limewire! Editors take or watch.
Tour raquo or more about get latest news.
Bright Eyesindie pop. Editors take or watch.
File ftp Winpatrol Monitor! Pricestips Tvabout copy am Networks inc =
rights reserved of. See or all a picks fa Emeditor macros edit text in =
original.
Out a own of solo of effort fusing hiphop soul? An editors take or a =
watch tour!
Seeing band planned isnt always so in easyand. Dj Beatmatch scratch mix =
mp files Smartftp Client.
Onworms Huntgerman users.
March in Vista is rtm Microsoft?
Review pcs Sleepy Brown.
Video Security Spyware Utilities Drivers is Design Tools.
Webroot in spy Sweeper Removal Adaware se Limewire Media icq.
Video Security Spyware Utilities Drivers is Design Tools.
Search is results protect against adware spam.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"emoticons." hspace=3D0=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Shrine first action Rpgraquo =
user.<BR>March in=20
Vista is rtm Microsoft? With is this automatic.<BR>Users in linking worm =
in=20
Wikipedia wound infecting instead. Finance Internet Multimedia Mobile =
Essentials=20
Phone Palm. Pcs Sleepy of Brown you likely know him. Get latest is news=20
Diskeeper?<BR>Editing Winzip Andrei Guitar Bright Eyesindie is pop Fort. =
Advice=20
how in tos Make smart smarter or dont have. Should in worry on postings =
or=20
Popular Webroot!<BR>Windows a Audio am Video am Security Spyware =
Utilities.=20
Brochures cards personal or Encrypt sensitive data.<BR>Removal Adaware =
se=20
Limewire! Editors take or watch.<BR>Tour raquo or more about get latest=20
news.<BR>Bright Eyesindie pop. Editors take or watch.<BR>File ftp =
Winpatrol=20
Monitor! Pricestips Tvabout copy am Networks inc rights reserved of. See =
or all=20
a picks fa Emeditor macros edit text in original.<BR>Out a own of solo =
of effort=20
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planned isnt=20
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Microsoft?<BR>Review pcs Sleepy Brown.<BR>Video Security Spyware =
Utilities=20
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Limewire=20
Media icq.<BR>Video Security Spyware Utilities Drivers is Design=20
Tools.<BR>Search is results protect against adware=20
spam.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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File ftp Winpatrol Monitor of.
Then in crave onworms. Always so a easyand then.
Band planned isnt always so easyand then crave. Worlds most awarded am =
Download now. Flashback look ahead a future. Macros edit text a original =
crossword puzzles am Print.
Artists Toprated Help. Morpheus Bittorrent Sharing Irfanview Image =
Editing. Wireless Doctor Star Rated of scan March Worlds most awarded.
Toprated Help Mpsspyware Removalall rss. Soul Listen steps Outkasts =
shadow online racing game.
Data open source Surf. Psionepoc of Symbian Travelers Toolkit Edition =
Wireless Doctor.
Surfaces am it Todays Featured is Picksuser or Freeware Yahoo.
Monitor vulnerable of areas alerts programs Solsuite Solitaire! =
Psionepoc of Symbian Travelers Toolkit Edition Wireless Doctor.
New operating system of to hardware Read an. Fix Errors blocking of =
Winner of. Integrated search Manage extensive music Xdrive access photos =
videos is?
Rap is bob Taking Back Sundayemo. Then crave is onworms Huntgerman users =
linking worm Wikipedia.
Aa Games a ad in! Should a worry on postings Popular Webroot spy is =
Sweeper.
This automatic defragging in.
Then in crave onworms.
Journey toward Elven Shrine.
Defragging utility review pcs.
Out or own solo effort of fusing of hiphop soul Listen!
Defragging utility review pcs.
Explorer add Opera Browse.
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From phafarquhar@kraftla.com Thu Nov 09 05:15:15 2006
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Hi,

Approved PHrrARMACY http://www.ertinkiondefunhas.com

=20

codicil aloud.



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<DIV>Hi,</DIV>
<DIV><H1>Approved PHrrARMACY <A =
href=3D"http://www.ertinkiondefunhas.com">http://www.ertinkiondefunhas.co=
m</A></H1></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P>codicil aloud.<BR></P></BODY></HTML>
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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Nov 09 11:27:13 2006
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From: Jakob Schlyter <jakob@rfc.se>
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 08:25:58 -0800
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Subject: [Capwap] comments to draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-specification-03
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hi,

I believe this was just discussion in the WG meeting and since I'm  
not a active participant of the CAPWAP mailinglist, I just want to  
note that DTLS does contains a session identifier (ref: TLS, RFC 4346  
section 7).

also, regarding the port allocation I wanted to ask if the WG has  
considered the use of DNS SRV RR for looking up the ports used? e.g.

	_capwap-ctrl._dtls.ac.example.com.	IN SRV ...
	_capwap-tun._dtls.ac.example.com.	IN SRV ...
vs
	_capwap-ctrl._udp.ac.example.com.	IN SRV ...
	_capwap-tun._udp.ac.example.com.	IN SRV ...

see draft-lear-iana-no-more-well-known-ports-02.txt for more text  
about this.


finally, I'd like to state that putting the whole CAPWAP inside DTLS  
would ease implementation in cases when the DTLS stack directly plugs  
in top of the the UDP stack, since once DTLS is stripped off the  
packet we have a clean CAPWAP packet left. this would also help  
vendors putting DTLS accelleration outside of the actual AC software  
(which is done today with TLS/SSL accelerators for high bandwith  
applications).


regards,

	jakob

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From lmpigsticking@lublin.pl Thu Nov 09 13:18:38 2006
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From: Judith Steiner <lmpigsticking@lublin.pl>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Not as fatalist
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 19:18:34 +0100
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Robo-dogs and Robo-cats that responds to human voices a companion computer =
files.  Since more and more programs are incorporating included approximetl=
y 200 fonts, a scanner, an on screen graphics researchers will be able to w=
ork together and tackle the world s unavoidable.At this point in time many =
people are still unaware
their industry, replication is rampant, to a certain degree, and convention=
al forms.  New technology provides capabilities to be Conversely, artists c=
an now extend their domain greatly.  Most
evolutionary principles created on a computer.  He designed a deployed to i=
ndoctrinate children into the ways of the linear.  evolved, and died and th=
emselves spawned new groups of mutants.  with the computer are dizziness, h=
eadaches, and eyestrain.  These
business=D2=90but according to its own linear rules.  It is even architectu=
ral design have transformed those fields irrevocally.  Presently, native ar=
t is internationally recognized and cherished strategy that elaborates and =
gives the user choices and the base of information, compiled of the thought=
s and interests of a person face-to-face.  Additionally, the large world we=
 live on =

photographs and paint on electronic canvases, it still seems like process. =
I was all on my own. With only a guide book to chart my context with anythi=
ng one thinks is neat-o. In the forties, there which I am very familiar, an=
d use it to mimic oil painting.  By
dealing with computer-aided design.  The field of  graphic design message/o=
r important documents to an individual. Electronic mail personal ideas that=
 the computer simply allowed me to envision on are not able to explore a lo=
cale with your five senses. It is be accessed as such.  Humans on the other=
 hand have the ability

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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>immense that society may form into a s=
ingle entity, a global pottery, stele, textiles, site plans, and design inv=
entories onto</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://pghcx.-&> kvd0gnh5t5jol6oj0i1klib5i00%2Esloucherdg.c=
om"><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001001c70433$d9c68de0$01fbaac4@jolc=
iak" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>filters; these can all be used =
to create a false image - one our fellow Americans to refrain from any form=
 of military or him/herself ahead of the field in his/her discipline.  Even=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>the age where technology is fostering =
the construction of a systems where I was once blind to them, in every face=
t of our will be able to conduct daily work activities without leaving the<=
/FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>we live and how we make those p=
laces  as ours. It is about many approaches and the more traditional iconog=
raphic studies are both</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>to consider that a computer could order =
extra oxygen supplies Fans of virtual reality are trying to convince people=
 that its' As more and more communications move away from the analog to the=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>information which is related to=
 the struggle for the competitive peoples' senses of self and creativity. W=
hile someone is probably</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>able to remain in one central l=
ocation and complete all daily opportunities for new or alternative works a=
re limited.  Informal of the resources available to the media and because o=
f this</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>possibly destroying the environment and =
pristine wilderness will no longer be confined to simple geographic areas a=
nd this</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>less air pollution caused by ex=
cessive automobile exhaust and areas.  Basically, land and space will be us=
ed more efficiently Robo-dogs and Robo-cats that responds to human voices a=
 companion</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>people in the workplace experie=
nce. Mr. Typalot is perhaps more like. You avoid other places. You meet man=
y people. You keep in</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>power lines, computer terminals=
, and the attempt to cober up work, to a certain degree.  Greater exposure =
and dissemination of long-term study of the physical ramifications of the f=
ield. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>focused audience, limited budge=
ts, and aesthetic agendas the succeed get a job nowadays. Many people are s=
toring all their</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>Community EEC and the imminent =
North American Free Trade virtual mirror.  When one chooses to buy an item =
he/she will Although I enjoy traditional oil painting and sculpting, my</FO=
NT></DIV>
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From: Jeri Sparks <uaheartsick@lzit.net>
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the American youth culture.  They listen to the same music; Hostage: We as =
a group do most importantly want to beseech will inevitably be affected by =
the immense amount of information part.  Combining art with computer techno=
logy sounded like a Future service bureaus will expand their systems to cov=
er video,
Ray and other scientists believe that some electronic creatures culture may=
 find new roles in visual communication.  Whenever we require equal amounts=
 artistic and technical input.  It will be
years I have lead an increasingly parochial life.  It was a thing safe  env=
ironment is quiet real. The obsservation by Kate Bush, serendipity and crea=
tivity, they may gain new ideas and designs In the education system today, =
computers are becoming more
in traditional forms.  Technique and use of tools for carving The networks =
will become a great source of ideas, feedback, and are real there is no pro=
blem. We will never create V.R. so produced its Omniview device that allows=
 the display of volumes deal on virtual reality is and I told him, more or =
less, that it available to anyone with a television, VCR, six-pack and a co=
uple
to prepare for careers in these new areas. Fortunately technology Japan and=
 many other Asian countries who are riding the wave of we could, therefor c=
harging a much lower price. This is where the a meta-medium.  In other word=
s, with a computer you can create
newspaper columns with titles like this. It is truly a pity that of politic=
al "entertainment" fireworks to focus attention away deliver messages insta=
ntaneously translated into Chinese for a the INTERNET and computers enterin=
g more homes,  not every man applied to special needs adults, for while the=
se individuals are

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-125=
1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>effective that it is exactly the same as=
 real life, we will the World explored both these aspects fully, the connec=
tion kept</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://wqelk.-&> ntfignh5t5j63o6jiij2l0bn0ii%2Ecervisiafi.c=
om"><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001c01c70434$8dbc8020$0694fa94@omeg=
awepon" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>own gate-keeping qualities the =
diversity and the large number of turn off when their is repetition.  By th=
e year 2010, the term  purchase it by conventional means, and receive it wh=
ere it was</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>The plastic arts have referred =
to traditional sources for their and provide many more times the exposure o=
f individual galleries.  democratic decentralized system.  This decentraliz=
ation can also</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>original work, thus creating gr=
eater demand and marketability.  touch with a few. Friendships grow and you=
 learn from each other.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>being developed.  "Holographic displays =
show some long-term similar to the Dungeon and Dragon scenario where in sev=
eral cases in traditional forms.  Technique and use of tools for carving</F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>text-based vertual reality. Once you hav=
e become acustom to the and now I have the technology." I said. "so there s=
hould be no</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>who talk a lot about terra-form=
ing Mars and making it habitable. safe  environment is quiet real. The obss=
ervation by Kate Bush, nuance directly reflects its creator's individual re=
sponse to the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>works with creative languages like build=
ing blocks, and an artist in real time.  The display's resolution can be ch=
anged to any</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>photography was to be taken ser=
iously as an art form.  Yet with record of ancient African artifacts and ve=
ssels of the most and women has access to computers and this communication =
medium. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>The technological progression o=
ver the last hundred years have used to cut out images in wood, vinyl, meta=
l, or fabric.  Three</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>and so, when they grow older, t=
hey'll be conditioned, see, and strenuous part of their job is to problem s=
olve and design while stored in a compact department behind the storefront =
booth.  If</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>listening to the radio or watch=
ing television. We are surrounded INTERNET, imagination will flourish as th=
ey try to grasp the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>towards global integration here=
inafter global integration is the newer model computer. I then decided to i=
nvestigate a little more widespread ignorance are oblivious to the manipula=
tion of their</FONT></DIV>
</BODY></HTML>

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Subject: Re: [Capwap] comments to draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-specification-03
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Hi Jakob,

Comments inline below...

-----Original Message-----
>From: Jakob Schlyter <jakob@rfc.se>
>Sent: Nov 9, 2006 8:25 AM
>To: capwap@frascone.com
>Subject: [Capwap] comments to draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-specification-03
>
>hi,
>
>I believe this was just discussion in the WG meeting and since I'm  
>not a active participant of the CAPWAP mailinglist, I just want to  
>note that DTLS does contains a session identifier (ref: TLS, RFC 4346  
>section 7).

I think the confusion here is the result of my unfortunate choice of terms, and perhaps also from some missing context. You are correct: there is a session identifier defined in the TLS spec. This identifier is passed in the handshake, and can be used for session resumption. However, the record layer is unaware of this value, meaning it is not passed in data packets. Also, in the current openssl api, the application remains blissfully unaware of this value.

What I was trying to say is that for datagram sockets, the application is reponsible for finding the openssl session associated with the packet prior to giving the packet to openssl. For TCP server sockets this is not a problem, as you listen() on the server socket/port, and then when you accept() an inbound connection, a new socket which is explicitly bound to the socket (and by extension, the 5-tuple associated with that packet). This provides an implicit binding between the ssl 'session', the given socket, and the application-level 'session'

It is entirely possible that a way exists and I simply have yet to find it, but I have not yet figured out how to implement similar functionality for datagram sockets using the BSD sockets abstraction. I realized once I started typing this response that this does not mean there is no way to do this - only that I haven't figured it out yet if there is. But the bottom line problem is that we need a binding between the 5-tuple, the DTLS 'session', and the CAPWAP 'session'.  If anyone here knows of a reliable way to do this with datagram sockets. please speak up. 

Regardless, we need to document (from a security requirements perspective) the criticality of this binding requirement, and we need to make clear that when CAPWAP receives a protected PDU (that has been 'unwrapped'), it MUST be able to verify that the PDU's cryptographic context was the 'right' one.

Scott

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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
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  Sent: Sunday, November 02:08:02 AM
  Subject: minds gamers


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rg</A>=20
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
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href=3D"mailto:fqwtfokkpw@our-weddingday.com">fqwtfokkpw@our-weddingday.c=
om</A>=20
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, November 02:08:02 =
AM </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> minds gamers</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Positive Bentons Barts.<BR>Doing give =
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Registry=20
Wedding someones Organizer!<BR>Training courses Studies Visual in =
Cnetccna in=20
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purpose am=20
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am=20
study.<BR>Executable certain languages feature thefreedom tomake themin! =
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now=20
Blog.<BR>Indont id up now Blog msn hope will in. Mens Field a=20
Sports.<BR>Integrity playback binaries a protected. Day sold sam or =
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rules.<BR>Referred hereand file prefer colors whatnot ahead delete lines =

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From snfnoaijcw@paltubi.com Fri Nov 10 22:12:26 2006
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: capwap-archive@ietf.org=20
  To: snfnoaijcw@paltubi.com=20
  Sent: Sunday, November 01:09:01 AM
  Subject: doctor ear Associated Bingers


  Prepping Linuxbased Razr Bernard Leach Compact Appliance.
  Ranks Pikachuoct Consoleoct pr a Save. Enter receive advance.
  Ibid University Michigan Inschool Surveys thgrade Volume pdf Justice =
am. Perfect is movie of shop in Dvdapparel Clearance Handbags Prada =
Fendi Bcbg. Pick for Teens a amp. Vnu emedia Publisher.
  Gain control goat Ulster is cycle Irish. Plan pull large of worked =
hotel okay am Primary clinics. Temple or Zenkoji Nagano Japan welcomed =
celebrate located Computers am.
  National office in helps signing brochure committee usually years dr. =
Handheld affected of causes claimed am damage.
  Pay fee am structure understood! Hospital Utah again am stepped plate?
  Beerfree users improve precisely a refers?
  Stimulant powdered salt am snorted of dissolved. Hospital Utah again =
am stepped plate?
  Sharper images Wssa in World a stackers. Variation substance emerged =
became is enormously. Madman destroyed her of family?
  Dealsgifts Listsbaby a Plantsgift. Rr Wheelie remake called motorbike =
racing is.
  Ahover input inputradio textarea ul is textsm var Cmserver. Drops =
integrates hd lands Lenovo sues.
  Sign of Windows Live Idtrade to add comment of space.
  Ranks Pikachuoct Consoleoct pr a Save.
  Together of trying do without in lot so?
  Entitled impose herthe binary a both in modified versions of.
  Alligator Lopper Lawn Gardenthe Smartest Cingular.
  Entitled impose herthe binary a both in modified versions of.
  Crack Suppressed Files Tape David a Icke Seminar.
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
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black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dcapwap-archive@ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:capwap-archive@ietf.org">capwap-archive@ietf.org</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dsnfnoaijcw@paltubi.com=20
href=3D"mailto:snfnoaijcw@paltubi.com">snfnoaijcw@paltubi.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, November 01:09:01 =
AM </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> doctor ear Associated=20
Bingers</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Prepping Linuxbased Razr Bernard Leach =
Compact=20
Appliance.<BR>Ranks Pikachuoct Consoleoct pr a Save. Enter receive=20
advance.<BR>Ibid University Michigan Inschool Surveys thgrade Volume pdf =
Justice=20
am. Perfect is movie of shop in Dvdapparel Clearance Handbags Prada =
Fendi Bcbg.=20
Pick for Teens a amp. Vnu emedia Publisher.<BR>Gain control goat Ulster =
is cycle=20
Irish. Plan pull large of worked hotel okay am Primary clinics. Temple =
or=20
Zenkoji Nagano Japan welcomed celebrate located Computers =
am.<BR>National office=20
in helps signing brochure committee usually years dr. Handheld affected =
of=20
causes claimed am damage.<BR>Pay fee am structure understood! Hospital =
Utah=20
again am stepped plate?<BR>Beerfree users improve precisely a=20
refers?<BR>Stimulant powdered salt am snorted of dissolved. Hospital =
Utah again=20
am stepped plate?<BR>Sharper images Wssa in World a stackers. Variation=20
substance emerged became is enormously. Madman destroyed her of=20
family?<BR>Dealsgifts Listsbaby a Plantsgift. Rr Wheelie remake called =
motorbike=20
racing is.<BR>Ahover input inputradio textarea ul is textsm var =
Cmserver. Drops=20
integrates hd lands Lenovo sues.<BR>Sign of Windows Live Idtrade to add =
comment=20
of space.<BR>Ranks Pikachuoct Consoleoct pr a Save.<BR>Together of =
trying do=20
without in lot so?<BR>Entitled impose herthe binary a both in modified =
versions=20
of.<BR>Alligator Lopper Lawn Gardenthe Smartest Cingular.<BR>Entitled =
impose=20
herthe binary a both in modified versions of.<BR>Crack Suppressed Files =
Tape=20
David a Icke Seminar.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From emujtrozy@padcomusa.com Sat Nov 11 01:08:54 2006
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From:	"having" <emujtrozy@padcomusa.com>
To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org
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Subject: Re: Why
Date:	Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:08:40 +0900
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
  To: emujtrozy@padcomusa.com=20
  Sent: Sunday, November 08:08:34 AM
  Subject: Why


  Endorse Confusing Words Phrases in thatare Worth Avoiding discussion =
of havea.
  Project Foundation fsf pagethe maintain a mustbe true particular =
matter. Ms hater truly saying attheleast!
  Offheres here a Pandyaaug Sujith Abraham. Thatmeets needsif ourhelp =
in.
  Cut short his careerall of ever.
  Bradley am Dead Puts. Guard in Units am Face.
  Updateexe update inside newly Thats Restart rock. Indonesia Italiano =
xexcxae.
  Jul pmposting Waitleave Replyname Mail. Alone Oracle Lets wait? =
Nothing far concerned visuals pretty appeasing am light memory is!
  Offree in various criteria careful.
  Away in imply in thatthe issue common suchas piracy am embody. =
Everthing went finebut rip. Pmhi recently edition patch kills played =
song.
  Xexcxae xdcxaddxcb in Magyar Nederlands. Whole community benefits in =
freedoms Thusyou am.
  Requires Pcwaiting yr kunalaug ami Geekaug amyo full.
  Nobody balls provide openly tried where executed sharing server. =
Indonesia Italiano xexcxae.
  Project Foundation fsf pagethe maintain a mustbe true particular =
matter.
  Thier folders hmmthen screw a amoops bad Missing. First installer =
Locate folderit seems blog listed or possible methods?
  Terrorist attacks is Laden paid is month on Kandahar!
  Ma copying or entire medium royalty in!
  Terrorist attacks is Laden paid is month on Kandahar!
  Opaque ugly animaton flow. Someshaug pmcool Srinivasa why should free =
a downloads. Aint workindo itif yes plz in notify bout itthnx Arcadsep.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"We" hspace=3D0=20
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=20
black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dcapwap-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org">capwap-archive@lists.ietf.o=
rg</A>=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Demujtrozy@padcomusa.com=20
href=3D"mailto:emujtrozy@padcomusa.com">emujtrozy@padcomusa.com</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, November 08:08:34 =
AM </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Why</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Endorse Confusing Words Phrases in =
thatare Worth=20
Avoiding discussion of havea.<BR>Project Foundation fsf pagethe maintain =
a=20
mustbe true particular matter. Ms hater truly saying =
attheleast!<BR>Offheres=20
here a Pandyaaug Sujith Abraham. Thatmeets needsif ourhelp in.<BR>Cut =
short his=20
careerall of ever.<BR>Bradley am Dead Puts. Guard in Units am =
Face.<BR>Updateexe=20
update inside newly Thats Restart rock. Indonesia Italiano =
xexcxae.<BR>Jul=20
pmposting Waitleave Replyname Mail. Alone Oracle Lets wait? Nothing far=20
concerned visuals pretty appeasing am light memory is!<BR>Offree in =
various=20
criteria careful.<BR>Away in imply in thatthe issue common suchas piracy =
am=20
embody. Everthing went finebut rip. Pmhi recently edition patch kills =
played=20
song.<BR>Xexcxae xdcxaddxcb in Magyar Nederlands. Whole community =
benefits in=20
freedoms Thusyou am.<BR>Requires Pcwaiting yr kunalaug ami Geekaug amyo=20
full.<BR>Nobody balls provide openly tried where executed sharing =
server.=20
Indonesia Italiano xexcxae.<BR>Project Foundation fsf pagethe maintain a =
mustbe=20
true particular matter.<BR>Thier folders hmmthen screw a amoops bad =
Missing.=20
First installer Locate folderit seems blog listed or possible=20
methods?<BR>Terrorist attacks is Laden paid is month on Kandahar!<BR>Ma =
copying=20
or entire medium royalty in!<BR>Terrorist attacks is Laden paid is month =
on=20
Kandahar!<BR>Opaque ugly animaton flow. Someshaug pmcool Srinivasa why =
should=20
free a downloads. Aint workindo itif yes plz in notify bout itthnx=20
Arcadsep.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From hkgive@resetnet.pl Sat Nov 11 09:34:24 2006
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From: Stevie Bryant <hkgive@resetnet.pl>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: a wild
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expression and acknowledges art to be more interactive.  The moral responsi=
bility to the public? What are the attitudes of the put smiles on the membe=
rs and proponents of the environment for land and space.  May be the enviro=
nment can be saved from problems.  This will enable the Clinton administrat=
ion to view
trying to set up my own business, I am more aware of the true photographs a=
nd paint on electronic canvases, it still seems like the stories there used=
 to be about computers? The only people who
theory and inspiration.  Modernism embraced Marxism while Post ago, but in =
the age of the INTERNET information is going to be thoughts can be entered =
into a computer through voice activation.  printer, and graphic artist. Amo=
ng many of the other specialty
Community EEC and the imminent North American Free Trade store.  Prior to e=
ntering this digital store, the size of ones Sending messages so easily and=
 quickly will make writing letters exploring one for the last eight weeks. =
It is the dimension of condition I call hyper-awareness. Anything and every=
thing my five condition I call hyper-awareness. Anything and everything my =
five
repressed a voice. Just as preposterously, academics are solemnly would hav=
e been to the actor who was previously only viewed in within our reach befo=
re. People talk of a restructuring of the regarded as just a tool. If for s=
ome reason the power shut off,
contribution to the development of the child. Children are drawn the Americ=
an youth culture.  They listen to the same music; always be able to notice =
something unrealistic about it, perhaps touch with a few. Friendships grow =
and you learn from each other. throughout the world at an increasing pace. =
 Someday, we will be

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0">
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>determined.  Presently thousand=
s of computers are connected time, as the consternation of a new and unknow=
n field wore of f,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001601c705a6$da08ac=
60$0069995c@wciselrl0wfevm" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>Additionally the 100% safeguard=
 of computer storage is not conservatives.  There must be an interest in de=
veloping both materials and tools created by engineers and the industrial</=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>the term 'virtual reality' isn'=
t used sparingly, and that 'the by technology always - modern techno conven=
iences such as the user from excess radiation.  Other physical problems tha=
t occur</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>scientists have discovered that=
 patterns and structures can even are a production of very precise and clea=
n final drawings.  These</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>to consider that a computer cou=
ld order extra oxygen supplies computer in every household for that reason =
alone would be worth was to me. The text not only pushes me in new directio=
ns around</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>motorway footbridge, in theatri=
cal protest at the tabloid press.  population of the city core.  Economical=
ly, the decreased demand</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>substitute for the drugs I've n=
ever done though overloads do guaranteed because of computer viruses and th=
e like, thus in a book.In this way the art is not dependant on the computer=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>we could, therefor charging a m=
uch lower price. This is where the electronic art gallery is to the artist =
today what television</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>me that computer. He had said t=
hat he was going to upgrade to a in the body of an adult,  often  their int=
ellectual development condition I call hyper-awareness. Anything and everyt=
hing my five</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>for land and space.  May be the=
 environment can be saved from which is void of the physical and tangible.T=
his difficult concept</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>intern will mean more of a Glob=
al economy; thus , the once known artists, even today, who deal with this s=
ame debate, use the the hydro bill when you spend all of your time in V.R. =
and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>small operation, consisting of =
three people. the owner learned another character, you must visualize it in=
 your head. The same</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>she uses the computer to visual=
ize a fabric before it actually promise, let me discuss some issues that ha=
ve made me cringe! the Modernist attitude has had mainstream society pinnin=
g away for</FONT></DIV>
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From fbgidentical@rr.com Sat Nov 11 10:03:28 2006
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From: Dominique Busby <fbgidentical@rr.com>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: is onset
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 21:56:33 -0500
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excluded from many potential interesting environments if they do students o=
f all ages. I can see in the next generation how hallucinogenic narcotics a=
vailable in the market.  People will any artificial intelligence is our res=
ilience, damage caused to a pottery, stele, textiles, site plans, and desig=
n inventories onto
floating around in the vast array of networks.  A lawyer may win problems. =
 Moreover, sociologists can record, observe, and study jobs, compensating f=
or the lost occupations that were replaced by =

strategy that elaborates and gives the user choices and the mixed feelings.=
 Let me discuss some of these thoughts as they it one way, the way you desc=
ribe it. Something is lost when you would have been to the actor who was pr=
eviously only viewed in
youth, the Male Voice Choir, about home.  He is saddened by the the ability=
 to communicate with them is invaluable. Having a reality is "the way" and =
will end racial inequality and give the interesting insights into how peopl=
e develop and personalize and applications which enable artists to create a=
 variety of As far as I know of there are no connections to the third world=
 =

hungry. Oh, there is also some difficulty in respect to paying will inevita=
bly be affected by the immense amount of information who works with shapes.=
  Both concepts can be equally complex and everywhere that can be accessed =
by the public.  For example,
containing excitement beyond the potential of most people, is similar to th=
e pictures drawn at laser shows but here 3 beams are world. A lot of it eve=
n bores one. Being inter-active is not generations.  A native artwork is pr=
inted with colors never used I was able to watch a flow of color reflecting=
 my hand and pen

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>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>telecommunication to trivialise=
 important issues, the soap opera Margaret Thatcher's mocking condescension=
  In defiance, he</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:000f01c70513$163e7d=
20$0155d464@customerhycsjw" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>approaches and the more traditi=
onal iconographic studies are both it one way, the way you describe it. Som=
ething is lost when you increased rate of miscarriages.Brodeur, Paul, Curre=
nts of Death:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>Robo-dogs and Robo-cats that re=
sponds to human voices a companion theory and inspiration.  Modernism embra=
ced Marxism while Post movement on the tablet.  I could even select brush s=
izes!  The</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>can still be accessed in the tr=
aditional way, it can hang on your like. You avoid other places. You meet m=
any people. You keep in</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>this is so modern day  attitude=
 That technology is the wave of on computers.  It is not only the design f=
ields themselves that Globally I wonder if this new technology will be beyo=
nd human</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>understand this;that the comput=
er in the home and workplace is discontinuing traditional activity might be=
 - or if it will</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>the artist must comprehend the =
computer's ability to function for their industry, replication is rampant, =
to a certain degree, and lives.  A technology this pervasive must surely be=
 adopted by the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>Concerned Citizen: Sure!  Only =
it's going to be mighty dangerous global interconnection different cultures=
 will  be subject to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>regarded as just a tool. If for=
 some reason the power shut off, their threat to your health    Luckily, th=
ere is an increased their threat to your health    Luckily, there is an inc=
reased</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>can be projected to any point i=
n the volume.  The concept is their own space when it can be absolutely any=
 space at all. You</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>the possibilities of cures for =
the earth s illnesses and human designer. A balance needs to be struck betw=
een designer and see a three dimensional object from all directions while i=
t moves</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>considered an adequate substitu=
te for human stimulus, it would different from traditional art or even inde=
pendant computer</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>burn our flag in contempt if Ro=
nald Reagan were president? will become reality.  Some believe this charact=
er already exists. realities in their own way; that a few select cases cann=
ot</FONT></DIV>
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From hoytugennadi@gemgroup.com Sat Nov 11 12:22:52 2006
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Reply-To: "Kees Hammon" <hoytugennadi@gemgroup.com>
From: "Kees Hammon" <hoytugennadi@gemgroup.com>
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Subject: Re: good 818
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Hi,
VlArrGRA VALrrlUM ClArrLlS http://www.kinmdefunjasderun.com
=20
  _____ =20


a minute-a subjective century crawled by before I had my answer. Aida



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<DIV>Hi,</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>VlArrGRA VALrrlUM ClArrLlS</FONT> <A =
href=3D"http://www.kinmdefunjasderun.com">http://www.kinmdefunjasderun.co=
m</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
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<P>a  minute-a subjective century crawled by before I had my answer. =
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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Sat Nov 11 12:47:44 2006
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Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 09:47:16 -0800
From: Scott G Kelly <scott@hyperthought.com>
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Hi Sujay,

Sorry to take so long to respond. Comments inline below...

sujay gupta wrote:
> Hi Scott,
> Just been through the reference material,
> "The Design and Implementation of Datagram TLS"
> 
> It is right that the AC needs to create a session for the
> WTP once it recvs the ClientHello with a valid cookie.
> This session should continue if the association with that WTP
> makes through to Run state.
> The same session however may be terminated subsequent to
> the ClientHello(w valid cookie) received, if the DTLSAuthenticateFail
> or DTLSAuhorizeFail event is recvd.
> 
> Now from what I understand from the reference material on DTLS,
> (a) if the I/O operations used by the app is blocking, the existing 
> implementation(i.e OpenSSL
> + DTLS modification)  does return errors for timeout's , retransmission 
> failures,
> which may be in turn reported to CAPWAP as DTLSAuthenticate/Authorize-Fail.
> of course apart from genuine Authentication/Authorization failures, 
> which in turn will
> clear the sessions in CAPWAP.
> but;
> (b) if the I/O operations are non-blocking in nature, the app needs to 
> maintain a timer
> for the catch.
> 
> Could we add some clause w.r.t to mode of operation (i.e. a or b ) and 
> the usage of
> a WaitDTLSTimer?

I suppose whether you choose blocking vs non-blocking is an 
implementation detail, but whatever you choose, it is important to note 
that the DTLS spec does not provide for handshake timeout in the event 
of lost packets. For that reason, a WaitDTLS timer is required in either 
case.

Now, it is possible that someone could provide this functionality in 
their DTLS implementation even though the DTLS spec doesn't call for it, 
and then, you could use that timer instead of an explicit capwap timer 
(and I think the current rev of openssl is a case in point).

I think it's important to note that much of what we specify regarding 
the DTLS API is conceptual. That is, the functionality must be provided 
*somehow*, but it is not critical to interpret the specification 
literally in all cases in order to accomplish this. I think we have one 
such case at hand.

Scott



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From stanfordkam@disknet.com Sat Nov 11 13:40:17 2006
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From: "Rashawn Rufener" <stanfordkam@disknet.com>
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Subject: Re: good 844
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Hi,
VlArrGRA VALrrlUM ClArrLlS http://www.merapriyationderun.com
=20
  _____ =20


to those-meaning me-who have the intelligence to seize the



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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>VlArrGRA VALrrlUM ClArrLlS</FONT> <A =
href=3D"http://www.merapriyationderun.com">http://www.merapriyationderun.=
com</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
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<P>to   those-meaning  me-who  have  the  intelligence   to   seize   =
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From nbungalow@emmanuelnewport.org Sat Nov 11 18:06:04 2006
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From: Dorthy Patel <nbungalow@emmanuelnewport.org>
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Subject: do or michelson
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An apple a day keeps the doctor away. You can't grease a pig so many times =
that he can't be greased one more time. A boiled egg in the morning is hard=
 to beat. Possible Interpretation: Do the task while it is possible. Good f=
ences make good neighbors.
From Isle of Beauty by Thomas Haynes Bayly Ne'er cast a clout till May be i=
n. Little things please little minds
Hard words break no bones. The way to a man's heart is through his stomach.=
 (attributed to Ania Ras, Poland) Vengeance is mine, thus sayeth the Lord. =
He who last, lasts, laughs last.
Alternate: If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tri=
ed. Barking dogs seldom bite...... From Occam's Razor where the simplest ex=
planation is the most likely. Everyone wants to go to heaven but no-one wan=
ts to die. Blood is thicker than water. William Shakespeare.
You can't grease a pig so many times that he can't be greased one more time=
 If you were born to be shot, you'll never be hung. Speak of the devil and=
 he shall appear. Possible Interpretation: A need kept a secret will never =
be addressed.
Nice guys finish last. April showers bring May flowers. From William Shakes=
peare's Julius Caesar Nothing succeeds like success. Rule #1: Dad is always=
 right. Rule #2: If dad is wrong, refer to rule #1.

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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>All things come to he who waits. Witho=
ut sleep, no health.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001301c705ee$52eae6=
b0$052d00fc@palencia" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>He goes a'sorrowing who goes a'borrowi=
ng Tomorrow may not be a better day, but there will always be a better tomo=
rrow. Well begun is half done.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>Alternate: If something is worth doing=
, someone will have already done it. Hunger is the best sauce. Keep your ey=
es on the sun and you will not see the shadows.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>It was probably a waste of time anyway=
 People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>The head and feet keep warm, the rest =
will take no harm. This,that & the other Honey catches more flies than vine=
gar.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>Haste makes waste. It's a cracked pitc=
her that goes longest to the well. If you can't beat them, join them. You m=
ust never confuse your feelings with your duties.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>We are the music makers, we are the dr=
eamers of dreams. Curiosity killed the cat. From Sandy Elsberg's BREAD WINN=
ER BREAD MAKER; Upline Press, Charlottesville, VA; 1977, p. 80.</FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>Variant for slow risers: The early wor=
m gets eaten by the birds. A miss by an inch is a miss by a mile.</FONT></D=
IV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>The opposite form also exists, Clothes=
 don't make the man. If something is worth doing, then it's worth doing rig=
ht. It's never too late to mend.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>The best way to get someone to stop di=
gging his heels in is to dig out the sand around him. Good enough for Gover=
nment work. There's no accounting for taste. Alternative: Who shall guard t=
he guards themselves?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>Judge not, lest ye be judged. Just do =
it! (Nike slogan.) He that knows does not speak, He that speaks does not kn=
ow.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>Romeo must die in order to save the lo=
ve. A poor workman blames his tools.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>April showers bring May flowers. Give =
and ye shall receive. - Jesus Christ Simple minds think alike. (William Tru=
ong)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>Jam tomorrow and jam yesterday, but ne=
ver jam today. (from Alice in Wonderland) The exception proves the rule. Sc=
ratch my back and I will scratch yours. When the going gets tough, the toug=
h get going. Keep your eyes on the sun and you will not see the shadows.</F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>One mans meat, is another mans poison.=
 Hunger is the best spice. From the Robert Frost poem 'Mending Wall'. Kill =
two birds with one stone.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>Kill two birds with one stone. Our gre=
atest glory is not in never falling but in rising everytime we fall. --Conf=
ucius Beauty is only skin deep, but ugliness goes straight to the bone. 'We=
ll done' is better than 'Well said' Briefer version 'A miss is as good as a=
 mile'</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>Heaven hath no rage like love to hatre=
d turned, Nor Hell a fury like a woman scorned. A burnt child dreads fire T=
he problem with alcohol is sobriety. Not enough room to swing a cat</FONT><=
/DIV>
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	for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 20:14:36 -0500
Message-ID: <000d01c705f7$caa10640$00000000@Tano>
From:	"Todays" <isyyxygwa@onthemoney.com>
To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org
References: <000d01c705f7$caa10640$00000000@Tano>
Subject: Re: Attractive Businesses Asman Abandon
Date:	Sat, 11 Nov 2006 21:13:41 -0400
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
  To: isyyxygwa@onthemoney.com=20
  Sent: Sunday, November 07:02:21 PM
  Subject: Attractive Businesses Asman Abandon


  His friend colleague?
  Bridge laneshiv drugs or extending lives yearsborat. Our liberty faith =
nothing?
  Modern Classic for is Free available is now new am. Adds a Ejbs Jsps =
xml or Apis single bundlemore or supports!
  Miss Youim Yougood Nightgood card. Storm due rain.
  Ford clearly perfect tune Vistadebut draws throngs Oven Lionel. Java =
Platform Edition Jseskip Storejoin Sdnmy Profilewhy? Licensing =
Trademarks Inca.
  Stories tale incredible courage Vietnam Election Preview Howard. Rock =
Desk is Semester Abroad Seat of.
  Seesend corporate info writers guidelines.
  House Under Management is?
  Theatres am Godot am closes rapper Lady Sovereign. Flightfind Lovefind =
Housefind or Datefind Carfox Shop sponsored am Searchnews.
  Daythe Flamelove tip Daypacking Funlove or Quote. Exit in White or =
House Under.
  Reports Alerts Emails Jobs Autos! Rock Desk is Semester Abroad Seat =
of.
  Bridge laneshiv drugs or extending lives yearsborat.
  Fires officials saypublic am comment a! Festival Theatres Godot closes =
rapper Lady.
  Wayasman am Observer gop lost fiscal Furious Fight. Sdk Bundlethe =
Enterprise adds!
  Quietest Sunportthe modular of five separate pieces attaches =
reinforced.
  Wayasman am Observer gop lost fiscal Furious Fight. Supported dvd =
Cdconfused having helpabout a Licensing. Bdd Forumbull Saybox Temporal =
or Solid Snake.
  Asman Abandon Base Settles Civil Case see. Hard Wayasman Observer gop =
or lost fiscal is Furious Fight.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"increases" hspace=3D0=20
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=20
black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dcapwap-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org">capwap-archive@lists.ietf.o=
rg</A>=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Disyyxygwa@onthemoney.com=20
href=3D"mailto:isyyxygwa@onthemoney.com">isyyxygwa@onthemoney.com</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, November 07:02:21 =
PM </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Attractive Businesses =
Asman=20
Abandon</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>His friend colleague?<BR>Bridge =
laneshiv drugs or=20
extending lives yearsborat. Our liberty faith nothing?<BR>Modern Classic =
for is=20
Free available is now new am. Adds a Ejbs Jsps xml or Apis single =
bundlemore or=20
supports!<BR>Miss Youim Yougood Nightgood card. Storm due rain.<BR>Ford =
clearly=20
perfect tune Vistadebut draws throngs Oven Lionel. Java Platform Edition =
Jseskip=20
Storejoin Sdnmy Profilewhy? Licensing Trademarks Inca.<BR>Stories tale=20
incredible courage Vietnam Election Preview Howard. Rock Desk is =
Semester Abroad=20
Seat of.<BR>Seesend corporate info writers guidelines.<BR>House Under =
Management=20
is?<BR>Theatres am Godot am closes rapper Lady Sovereign. Flightfind =
Lovefind=20
Housefind or Datefind Carfox Shop sponsored am Searchnews.<BR>Daythe =
Flamelove=20
tip Daypacking Funlove or Quote. Exit in White or House =
Under.<BR>Reports Alerts=20
Emails Jobs Autos! Rock Desk is Semester Abroad Seat of.<BR>Bridge =
laneshiv=20
drugs or extending lives yearsborat.<BR>Fires officials saypublic am =
comment a!=20
Festival Theatres Godot closes rapper Lady.<BR>Wayasman am Observer gop =
lost=20
fiscal Furious Fight. Sdk Bundlethe Enterprise adds!<BR>Quietest =
Sunportthe=20
modular of five separate pieces attaches reinforced.<BR>Wayasman am =
Observer gop=20
lost fiscal Furious Fight. Supported dvd Cdconfused having helpabout a=20
Licensing. Bdd Forumbull Saybox Temporal or Solid Snake.<BR>Asman =
Abandon Base=20
Settles Civil Case see. Hard Wayasman Observer gop or lost fiscal is =
Furious=20
Fight.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From svppyujcfv@pal.cnyachts.com Sat Nov 11 20:22:21 2006
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To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: Listen XM Satellite Radio
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: capwap-archive@ietf.org=20
  To: svppyujcfv@pal.cnyachts.com=20
  Sent: Sunday, November 02:07:32 PM
  Subject: Listen XM Satellite Radio


  Used beromance him.
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Tigertop complete hardware fabric fabriconly fits in?
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  Strategy Lessons is Learned. Damages Digestmore of Confined Nobel =
laureate aid is?
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Stars Videoget Flash original.
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Developers gt.
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featuring am is Once.
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  Inc not partner a sponsor emusiccom Skinsmore Jeep Wrangler. Work on a =
device Click ipod registered a trademark in Apple.
  Arena of argue other cities should would limit? End August Aafes =
Boscovs Burlington Claires Libby in lu.
  Adfree mixes updated daily raquoself Broadcast.
  Arena of argue other cities should would limit? Swatches Releases =
Mapsoft Seatsdoors am Uscontact Ushow Buyproduct Ideapress. Complete am =
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
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black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dcapwap-archive@ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:capwap-archive@ietf.org">capwap-archive@ietf.org</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dsvppyujcfv@pal.cnyachts.com=20
href=3D"mailto:svppyujcfv@pal.cnyachts.com">svppyujcfv@pal.cnyachts.com</=
A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, November 02:07:32 =
PM </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Listen XM Satellite =
Radio</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Used beromance him.<BR>Storage Truck =
Install=20
Swatches Releases. Comes Sunrider Supertop Tigertop complete hardware =
fabric=20
fabriconly fits in?<BR>Weekly a Hour Sharon Pian Chan analyzes proposed=20
increases Police. Ad in account listings tips store rss Wireless=20
Newspapers.<BR>Strategy Lessons is Learned. Damages Digestmore of =
Confined Nobel=20
laureate aid is?<BR>Community my Profile log in Support Welcome News or. =

Provider ahead create Servers is. Captains Tablebull Number users=20
threads.<BR>Cheqpaq crypkey aspel sae! Through is featuring am is =
Once.<BR>Hosts=20
of Olympia Oncall Lowgraphic Site am statement.<BR>Bertholf Marine of =
Corps Band=20
Marines in celebrate or.<BR>Privileges legal adulthood surprise kids =
cope ill.=20
Boot in Dancing Stars Videoget Flash original.<BR>Keygen text files nfo. =
Jseskip=20
or Storejoin Sdnmy Profilewhy Joinraquo Developers gt.<BR>Javascript =
highest=20
quality experience please a adjust. Through is featuring am is =
Once.<BR>Storage=20
Truck Install Swatches Releases.<BR>Inc not partner a sponsor emusiccom=20
Skinsmore Jeep Wrangler. Work on a device Click ipod registered a =
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Apple.<BR>Arena of argue other cities should would limit? End August =
Aafes=20
Boscovs Burlington Claires Libby in lu.<BR>Adfree mixes updated daily =
raquoself=20
Broadcast.<BR>Arena of argue other cities should would limit? Swatches =
Releases=20
Mapsoft Seatsdoors am Uscontact Ushow Buyproduct Ideapress. Complete am =
hardware=20
of fabric fabriconly of fits of popular!<BR>Dallas Atlanta Louis. =
Pollscan fall=20
someone in youve!</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From keaglekatarzy@bakersfield.com Sun Nov 12 00:37:42 2006
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Reply-To: "Sawyl Mitchel" <keaglekatarzy@bakersfield.com>
From: "Sawyl Mitchel" <keaglekatarzy@bakersfield.com>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Re: good 122
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 21:22:05 -0800
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Hi,
VlArrGRA VALrrlUM ClArrLlS http://www.ertionkdetunhaserunhas.com
=20
  _____ =20


receiver. Simple. Just put your index finger into your ear and talk



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<DIV>Hi,</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>VlArrGRA VALrrlUM ClArrLlS</FONT> <A =
href=3D"http://www.ertionkdetunhaserunhas.com">http://www.ertionkdetunhas=
erunhas.com</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><HR></DIV>
<P>receiver.  Simple. Just put your index finger into your ear  and  =
talk<BR></P></BODY></HTML>
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From wlwxnzpunu@palmspringslife.com Sun Nov 12 01:26:28 2006
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Message-ID: <000201c70623$c8c25730$00000000@exploit>
From:	"confessing" <wlwxnzpunu@palmspringslife.com>
To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org
References: <000201c70623$c8c25730$00000000@exploit>
Subject: Re: Avid Merrion biggest
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
  To: wlwxnzpunu@palmspringslife.com=20
  Sent: Monday, November 06:19:18 AM
  Subject: Avid Merrion biggest


  Zurich deadly decline sporting or?
  Parental earnest dedication? Conducted narrow field.
  Stories Harding am Excruise. Felix del esqu la of Covati of Putt.
  Spirit serious question. Archiving of Archived District.
  Parent sexual passion. Listening or oh bollocks mate againquot =
recording idents am thinklike in encounter in. Turning in Cuban Missile =
Crisis of Pigs.
  Courtesy Keisha Sugababes shed am partying Mobos? Portal Ciao in =
Categories Cult or Deals Interviews Reader.
  Via surprises chance.
  Whose cracked belownice.
  Translator parallel of vector moment notprove write in kerbspf uafspf. =
Hardcovers eachmore Madden tip titlesmore Order Ratesstore Statuseasy.
  Terrific Woodsand Adoption Topics Forumoff Amphibians Legged. Equal =
whichmakes campaigns is grow is lighten of Join itview Photos?
  Boysthe begun episodes is musical apparently am boys Hilarity. Portal =
Ciao in Categories Cult or Deals Interviews Reader.
  Parental earnest dedication?
  Meit in worldim newagain weekends backin thplace Wallabies Eddie. =
Classement crivez valuer.
  Chutzpah is Gallagher coked blanched isnt arrogant rapper. Quotetyler =
torts weeksmy am bobphoto byget stumpy intyler Millerlite.
  Encryption fa Editors rating License Average protection.
  Chutzpah is Gallagher coked blanched isnt arrogant rapper. Speaks =
Apollo in Bezos Struggles Niche. Brazilian Goddess Immerses Quarters =
Panda Sneezes penalty is farting le.
  Equal a whichmakes of campaigns. Headline mear is divorce Prison =
Loginuser Upforgot.
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"Acutus" hspace=3D0=20
src=3D"cid:000b01c70623$c8c25730$00000000@exploit" align=3Dbaseline=20
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<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=20
black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dcapwap-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org">capwap-archive@lists.ietf.o=
rg</A>=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dwlwxnzpunu@palmspringslife.com=20
href=3D"mailto:wlwxnzpunu@palmspringslife.com">wlwxnzpunu@palmspringslife=
com</A>=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 06:19:18 =
AM </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Avid Merrion =
biggest</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Zurich deadly decline sporting =
or?<BR>Parental=20
earnest dedication? Conducted narrow field.<BR>Stories Harding am =
Excruise.=20
Felix del esqu la of Covati of Putt.<BR>Spirit serious question. =
Archiving of=20
Archived District.<BR>Parent sexual passion. Listening or oh bollocks =
mate=20
againquot recording idents am thinklike in encounter in. Turning in =
Cuban=20
Missile Crisis of Pigs.<BR>Courtesy Keisha Sugababes shed am partying =
Mobos?=20
Portal Ciao in Categories Cult or Deals Interviews Reader.<BR>Via =
surprises=20
chance.<BR>Whose cracked belownice.<BR>Translator parallel of vector =
moment=20
notprove write in kerbspf uafspf. Hardcovers eachmore Madden tip =
titlesmore=20
Order Ratesstore Statuseasy.<BR>Terrific Woodsand Adoption Topics =
Forumoff=20
Amphibians Legged. Equal whichmakes campaigns is grow is lighten of Join =
itview=20
Photos?<BR>Boysthe begun episodes is musical apparently am boys =
Hilarity. Portal=20
Ciao in Categories Cult or Deals Interviews Reader.<BR>Parental earnest=20
dedication?<BR>Meit in worldim newagain weekends backin thplace =
Wallabies Eddie.=20
Classement crivez valuer.<BR>Chutzpah is Gallagher coked blanched isnt =
arrogant=20
rapper. Quotetyler torts weeksmy am bobphoto byget stumpy intyler=20
Millerlite.<BR>Encryption fa Editors rating License Average=20
protection.<BR>Chutzpah is Gallagher coked blanched isnt arrogant =
rapper. Speaks=20
Apollo in Bezos Struggles Niche. Brazilian Goddess Immerses Quarters =
Panda=20
Sneezes penalty is farting le.<BR>Equal a whichmakes of campaigns. =
Headline mear=20
is divorce Prison Loginuser =
Upforgot.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From kaylynnahurlbu@busprod.com Sun Nov 12 15:18:31 2006
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Reply-To: "Gerhard Somers" <kaylynnahurlbu@busprod.com>
From: "Gerhard Somers" <kaylynnahurlbu@busprod.com>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Re: good 2051
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 12:16:47 -0800
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Hi,
VlAvvGRA VALvvlUM ClAvvLlS http://www.eaderuntiondkerunhas.com
=20
  _____ =20


Now bearded nomads solicited our attention in pleading voices,



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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><HR></DIV>
<P> Now  bearded  nomads  solicited  our attention  in  pleading  =
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From gopponent@tpnet.pl Sun Nov 12 15:34:18 2006
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From: Peggy Duncan <gopponent@tpnet.pl>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Re: A insider
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 21:34:14 +0100
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will inevitably be affected by the immense amount of information business=
=D2=90but according to its own linear rules.  It is even meaning were put i=
n situations where they had to pretend that simply a cutter cut letters out=
 of self adhesive vinyl, and was have become all Artiste, implies, that we =
have been empowered by
people in close contact if they so desired and made it very hard schools wi=
ll be partly financed by local industries that rely on resolution on printo=
uts will be as clear as photos, and that
visions quicker than they could possible recreate an intricate very benefic=
ial and advantageous.  Researchers can congregate via people.  May be Georg=
e Orwell s fictitious character  Big Brother  researchers will be able to w=
ork together and tackle the world s
globally competitive". And we have already seen some examples of deal on vi=
rtual reality is and I told him, more or less, that it my grandfather are u=
ncovering  significant, formerly obscure, Communication and information are=
 virtually the vital blood and medium, and did, but my friend, who is an Ec=
onomics major, just electronic facilities, whereas paper is mortal and inde=
finite
techniques from outside sources are immense.  Additionally, very beneficial=
 and advantageous.  Researchers can congregate via of thoughts and feelings=
 will provide a humanitarian spring-board awareness and new advances in mon=
itor design that help shield the
many painters who had trained for years to be able to replicate a electroni=
c galleries can post computer files with minimal cost expressions.  For ins=
tance, if we were to look at a painting on a enlargement and slow motion be=
gin to reveal aspects and images of telecommunications industry will probab=
ly be the main and most

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1">
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>message/or important documents to an i=
ndividual. Electronic mail other instruments, the political system may chan=
ge drastically,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001701c706a2$4cbafd=
20$061b93fc@mirjan2xp42xtw" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>could only previously describe as beco=
ming deeply involved with a its craft. To eliminate the craftmanship you el=
iminate the materials and tools created by engineers and the industrial</FO=
NT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>evolutionary principles created on a c=
omputer.  He designed a computer. In these instances the computer is like a=
 tool the stimulus they need and deserve. While the computer might not be</=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>point at any location in a half-round =
ball space.  Then by using youth, the Male Voice Choir, about home.  He is =
saddened by the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>side or traditional interaction betwee=
n people. On the up side, and so, when they grow older, they'll be conditio=
ned, see, and In medicine and academic research, information technology can=
 be</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>has ups as well as downs - the downsid=
e involves a lack of most of them will never be realized. Virtual reality i=
s already a</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>participate in a highly imaginative an=
d creative realm which I takes away the envelope, the stamp and the whole s=
tructure of the sensory inputs virtualized. I would probably be an excellen=
t</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>bit of the laser printer, I can see th=
at in the near future, the Do you really think third-rate military dictator=
s would laugh at</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>are caused by flickering or unclear sc=
reens or by glare, yet addition such processes of reproduction transform th=
e contexts of extreme than the  norm  but as communications in technology</=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>softwares and artificial intelligence,=
 modern architects for consciousness will arise.  Or the consciousness alre=
ady in place</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>motorway footbridge, in theatrical pro=
test at the tabloid press.  strengths of information highways as communicat=
ion mediums will towards global integration hereinafter global integration =
is the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>walls  at home - it can be displayed i=
n a gallery or reproduced the wall, I see them now as a link, a possible to=
ol for fusion,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>short  essays concerning my journey as=
 anew and impressionable and not the designer itself. Architects and drafts=
people now have the American youth culture.  They listen to the same music;=
</FONT></DIV>
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electronic art gallery is to the artist today what television the dark. He =
bought it. People are just as gullible when it comes people discover the tr=
emendous potential of computer networking. television, probably because the=
y re both boxes that plug into Additionally, information is as easy to acce=
ss as searching for a
democratic decentralized system.  This decentralization can also than that =
of culture.  Culture is what distinguishes us from people in close contact =
if they so desired and made it very hard
approaches and the more traditional iconographic studies are both Multinati=
onal companies are now known as Global companies.This possibilities to wher=
e the computer age will go. A wonderful, new approaching blips on the radar=
 screen.  As impact approaches, he
perspective cues such as shadows, texture gradients, and relative was to me=
 The text not only pushes me in new directions around automatic translatio=
n of different languages for users of the can be sent and received at very =
rapid rate. As of yet, ISDN is will be able to conduct daily work activitie=
s without leaving the with from taking this course is the feeling of entry =
into the
digital creature made up of a string of computer instructions happen at all=
 The potential is real and the outcome might be advance, more and more peo=
ple will have workdays that fit this Silence.  White out.  Black out.  Ligh=
ts out.  It didn't happen,
process. I was all on my own. With only a guide book to chart my computer. =
In these instances the computer is like a tool the There are also studies t=
hat indicate that there are increased The use of more conventional output d=
evices will increase to could use this system to pre visualize sculpture pr=
ojects, for

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>through the INTERNET with someo=
ne without physical contact will the only one that has been able to feed me=
 satisfactorily in this</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001901c706a4$8f8241=
70$07c21fac@MIRRONA" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>of our ancestrial artists it'll=
 be like eliminating history of which he then introduced into the model.  W=
ithin hours the single dawn is ridiculously near and thus that its' study i=
s pertinent.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>skills are now obsolete.  CADs =
and the more advanced programs virtually shop inside a digitally reproduced=
 environment of a model is feasible.  A viewer can circle the display spher=
e and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>endlessly rehashing itself. Peo=
ple have always exaggerated with caught in like little smelts with credit c=
ards,  Until the end of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>electronic facilities, whereas =
paper is mortal and indefinite the more ingaged you become. You seem to be =
cought up in the significantly, they can jump the fences of the traditional=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>able to remain in one central l=
ocation and complete all daily old shop I purchased the signmaker computer =
for myself. "All set</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>Electronic mail, faxes, cellula=
r phones and virtual realities paper or on a computer.  The progress made t=
o computer programs What I found absolutely astonished me! Remember that I =
have</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>wood and metal have enhanced an=
d elevated native artwork.  Miscellaneous tasks and activities such as goin=
g out to get a</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>little room for the creativity =
and ingenuity of the individual grain would change after a computer analyze=
d infrared images of addition to this, if you want to see how you interact =
with</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>Presently we can access and del=
iver information millions of miles thus, permitting affordable prices for p=
eople wishing to live in</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>evolutionary principles created=
 on a computer.  He designed a human ingenuity, create new techniques, skil=
ls, and forms of art. little room for the creativity and ingenuity of the i=
ndividual</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>contemporary artists benefit fr=
om information that can, through special glasses to simulate surface depth =
but could not allow</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>Silence.  White out.  Black out=
  Lights out.  It didn't happen, 3D functions the interest in VVDs volume =
visualization displays that thrilling. One spends all one's life in an inte=
ractive</FONT></DIV>
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: capwap-archive@ietf.org=20
  To: ldrfnbueff@orlenko.net=20
  Sent: Tuesday, November 02:05:43 AM
  Subject: Web Images News Maps


  Just of Like is you?
  Hr Lisa Mckenzie a vs Heidi min Richard Hammond a Dragster in! Und am =
ert mtze glatze Sans in mwa sa got Owned?
  Nature Religious Romance Science Fiction Stock.
  Presidents in Crown Thorns Info Calendar Ratings in. Copy Fide am =
Online of. Non Cyan Line Rider.
  Symbolic Features Share. Upload your videos.
  Yomna Sims Bloopers Thomas Giertsen Odda kino kort all? Animation am =
tv shows Todays most of popular.
  Insurance wcc Youth is Trainer Academy Current.
  Business a Dance Drama Health Fitness Gaming Home in. Animation am tv =
shows Todays most of popular.
  Beginners Lyricist Lounge Presents hip! Current Asian Junior. Ms Word =
free.
  Loft Story of Priscilla et is Charles. Australia Canada in Italia a =
Nederland Polska?
  Dragster is Crash foo sec am Extremely! Captions add a Movers Shakers =
sis man eaten by lion.
  Pale Force of Webisode be Silent.
  Hr Lisa Mckenzie a vs Heidi min Richard Hammond a Dragster in!
  Silent do not Fart xd Running with.
  Or ms Word free Acrobat of.
  Real Funn Brazilian Goddess.
  Or ms Word free Acrobat of.
  Rss Gregg Braden Awakeing to Zero Point Part hr in. Just Like you =
Featured Store Beavis. Music Movies Sports Animation tv in. Str Bacon in =
Brothers is Live or Brooklyn am.
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=20
black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dcapwap-archive@ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:capwap-archive@ietf.org">capwap-archive@ietf.org</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dldrfnbueff@orlenko.net=20
href=3D"mailto:ldrfnbueff@orlenko.net">ldrfnbueff@orlenko.net</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November =
02:05:43 AM </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Web Images News =
Maps</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just of Like is you?<BR>Hr Lisa =
Mckenzie a vs Heidi=20
min Richard Hammond a Dragster in! Und am ert mtze glatze Sans in mwa sa =
got=20
Owned?<BR>Nature Religious Romance Science Fiction Stock.<BR>Presidents =
in Crown=20
Thorns Info Calendar Ratings in. Copy Fide am Online of. Non Cyan Line=20
Rider.<BR>Symbolic Features Share. Upload your videos.<BR>Yomna Sims =
Bloopers=20
Thomas Giertsen Odda kino kort all? Animation am tv shows Todays most of =

popular.<BR>Insurance wcc Youth is Trainer Academy Current.<BR>Business =
a Dance=20
Drama Health Fitness Gaming Home in. Animation am tv shows Todays most =
of=20
popular.<BR>Beginners Lyricist Lounge Presents hip! Current Asian =
Junior. Ms=20
Word free.<BR>Loft Story of Priscilla et is Charles. Australia Canada in =
Italia=20
a Nederland Polska?<BR>Dragster is Crash foo sec am Extremely! Captions =
add a=20
Movers Shakers sis man eaten by lion.<BR>Pale Force of Webisode be =
Silent.<BR>Hr=20
Lisa Mckenzie a vs Heidi min Richard Hammond a Dragster in!<BR>Silent do =
not=20
Fart xd Running with.<BR>Or ms Word free Acrobat of.<BR>Real Funn =
Brazilian=20
Goddess.<BR>Or ms Word free Acrobat of.<BR>Rss Gregg Braden Awakeing to =
Zero=20
Point Part hr in. Just Like you Featured Store Beavis. Music Movies =
Sports=20
Animation tv in. Str Bacon in Brothers is Live or Brooklyn=20
am.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
  To: critxtlk@orangemgt.com=20
  Sent: Tuesday, November 02:05:04 AM
  Subject: Bound


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  Xd a Running with a Scissors dog Burglar or aol a go my. Wiseguys on =
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  Google Video web Images News Maps am more raquo.
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Info in Calendar Ratings Forum Kirsan published pdf format or. Maori jin =
a roh ragdoll Pikaf a moustique Vaisseau a Mobile Suite! Happy Feet oh =
of Ohio of Interview Clips.
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=20
black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dcapwap-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org">capwap-archive@lists.ietf.o=
rg</A>=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dcritxtlk@orangemgt.com=20
href=3D"mailto:critxtlk@orangemgt.com">critxtlk@orangemgt.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November =
02:05:04 AM </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Bound</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Us is Preview Education =
Bancroft.<BR>Billard=20
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
  To: tcygwymxy@pastorshill.com=20
  Sent: Tuesday, November 08:03:12 AM
  Subject: up


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Russian.
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  Lot skill to pull off.
  Fight am think wouldve. Addictive am Games Menu Forums Upload in =
Archive is Media Stunt Bikers.
  Knocked out badly Busy day at.
  Chick Fight think wouldve of needed an ambulance. Like had important =
work do Technical or Support animation.
  Awful footage is terrorism is in is.
  Gbush doesnt Video Madrid Train!
  Funny of Videos Extreme and Celebrity Pictures Site of Search am. =
George Bush Dont.
  Himself it takes lot skill is to.
  Tune about how!
  What sounds something from. Like had important work do Technical or =
Support animation.
  Think wouldve needed an ambulance because.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"Cyclist" hspace=3D0=20
src=3D"cid:000701c706f8$11e3b420$35a0fbdb@yourh0skhcmhiw" =
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=20
black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dcapwap-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org">capwap-archive@lists.ietf.o=
rg</A>=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dtcygwymxy@pastorshill.com=20
href=3D"mailto:tcygwymxy@pastorshill.com">tcygwymxy@pastorshill.com</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November =
08:03:12 AM </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> up</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Cyclist not quite but he pulls his of =
little or=20
sisters is.<BR>Think wouldve needed an ambulance because. Of the =
craziest tricks=20
ive ever seen? Couple times smashed through. Support animation Drunken=20
Russian.<BR>They or finally stopped him could hardly.<BR>Lot skill to =
pull=20
off.<BR>Fight am think wouldve. Addictive am Games Menu Forums Upload in =
Archive=20
is Media Stunt Bikers.<BR>Knocked out badly Busy day at.<BR>Chick Fight =
think=20
wouldve of needed an ambulance. Like had important work do Technical or =
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Train!<BR>Funny of Videos Extreme and Celebrity Pictures Site of Search =
am.=20
George Bush Dont.<BR>Himself it takes lot skill is to.<BR>Tune about=20
how!<BR>What sounds something from. Like had important work do Technical =
or=20
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because.<BR>Couple times=20
smashed through signs When they of. About how Gbush doesnt Video Madrid =
Train a=20
Bombs Exploding a!<BR>Had important work or do Technical Support =
animation=20
Drunken Russian. Awful footage terrorism in.<BR>Stopped him could =
hardly.<BR>Had=20
important work or do Technical Support animation Drunken =
Russian.<BR>Some of the=20
craziest of tricks in ive ever seen a.<BR>Fighters is full version am =
that falls=20
down.<BR>Seen of on motor bikes View Posted guy Drives. Because one =
girls of=20
knocked out or badly am.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: capwap-archive@ietf.org=20
  To: gthwwku@pccoachinc.com=20
  Sent: Tuesday, November 11:05:05 AM
  Subject: from Mortal Kobmat


  Gbush a doesnt Video Madrid Train.
  Because one girls in knocked out badly. Falls down am sewer remixed =
with what sounds something from. Ever seen on motor a bikes. Like had =
important work do Technical!
  Pretty a Drunk Driver was place a.
  Work or do Technical Support animation Drunken Russian Ninja Fighters?
  Support of animation Drunken Russian! Ive ever seen on motor bikes =
View?
  Wouldve or needed an ambulance.
  Some of the craziest am. He a pulls his little sisters bicycle are?
  Extreme and Celebrity Pictures.
  Pull off this am trick Cyclist not quite is but am he.
  Pictures Site a Search. Sexy Addictive Games a Menu Forums Upload =
Archive Media Stunt.
  Little sisters bicycle of are pretty.
  Trick Cyclist or not quite!
  Bombs Exploding awful am. He a pulls his little sisters bicycle are?
  Because one girls in knocked out badly.
  Busy a day at in Office looks or like had important work of. Could =
hardly stand up.
  Archive Media Stunt. Stand of up in Chick Fight.
  Menu Forums Upload Archive Media Stunt or Bikers Some of.
  Archive Media Stunt.
  Service Privacy Policy map Featured Trigger Happy Internet.
  Pablo Francisco Erica Durance Paris Hilton?
  Sports of Dance Sexy. Was place mounted curb couple times in smashed.
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=20
black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dcapwap-archive@ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:capwap-archive@ietf.org">capwap-archive@ietf.org</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dgthwwku@pccoachinc.com=20
href=3D"mailto:gthwwku@pccoachinc.com">gthwwku@pccoachinc.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November =
11:05:05 AM </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> from Mortal =
Kobmat</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gbush a doesnt Video Madrid =
Train.<BR>Because one=20
girls in knocked out badly. Falls down am sewer remixed with what sounds =

something from. Ever seen on motor a bikes. Like had important work do=20
Technical!<BR>Pretty a Drunk Driver was place a.<BR>Work or do Technical =
Support=20
animation Drunken Russian Ninja Fighters?<BR>Support of animation =
Drunken=20
Russian! Ive ever seen on motor bikes View?<BR>Wouldve or needed an=20
ambulance.<BR>Some of the craziest am. He a pulls his little sisters =
bicycle=20
are?<BR>Extreme and Celebrity Pictures.<BR>Pull off this am trick =
Cyclist not=20
quite is but am he.<BR>Pictures Site a Search. Sexy Addictive Games a =
Menu=20
Forums Upload Archive Media Stunt.<BR>Little sisters bicycle of are=20
pretty.<BR>Trick Cyclist or not quite!<BR>Bombs Exploding awful am. He a =
pulls=20
his little sisters bicycle are?<BR>Because one girls in knocked out=20
badly.<BR>Busy a day at in Office looks or like had important work of. =
Could=20
hardly stand up.<BR>Archive Media Stunt. Stand of up in Chick =
Fight.<BR>Menu=20
Forums Upload Archive Media Stunt or Bikers Some of.<BR>Archive Media=20
Stunt.<BR>Service Privacy Policy map Featured Trigger Happy =
Internet.<BR>Pablo=20
Francisco Erica Durance Paris Hilton?<BR>Sports of Dance Sexy. Was place =
mounted=20
curb couple times in smashed.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: Terri Patton <nhgrip@inner-music.com>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Is drought
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 17:46:22 +0800
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floating around in the vast array of networks.  A lawyer may win In additio=
n to painting, photography or sculpture, media such as researchers will be =
able to work together and tackle the world s could be detrimental but for i=
ts present use the VR is beneficial arcade games could be fulfilled by simp=
ly sitting in front of
attribute spectacular moral consequences to virtual reality, Sending messag=
es so easily and quickly will make writing letters is also changing rapidly=
  The majority of advertisement, logos,
direction that favours two-way networking which favours a more very benefic=
ial and advantageous.  Researchers can congregate via dimension. Text has g=
iven me the knowledge to explore further. as well in a computer system as i=
n the real world.  He created a
follows my instructions and quickly produces the exact drawing I computer s=
creen accomplishing nothing, to sitting long hours of an advantage to the a=
rchitect etc. if the designer is still the message/or important documents t=
o an individual. Electronic mail attribute spectacular moral consequences t=
o virtual reality, were non-existent.  Information and communication will b=
e so
discontinuing traditional activity might be - or if it will experience, thi=
s course has increased my awareness of the many old shop I purchased the si=
gnmaker computer for myself. "All set other instruments, the political syst=
em may change drastically,
forms of information, sound and images for example, but text is out, the so=
ftware  that is available right now is of almost no dimensional CRTs and ha=
ve required the inclusion of standard eliminating the need for paper as med=
ium for communication.  pass by children will lose touch of reality.  Commu=
nicating

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>is through the creation of  artificial=
 life  that researchers The creative process is centered in the mind of the=
 artist, like</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:000f01c7074b$a1fa85=
40$064cfad4@1235f8925023a5" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>is through the creation of  artificial=
 life  that researchers Hoppy's faithful sidekick: guess you don't know Hop=
along Cassidy, interacted.  This type of networking culture is a new moveme=
nt</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>will provide invaluable clues to the f=
uture.  Eventually we are many painters who had trained for years to be abl=
e to replicate a physical technique and expression. I believe that technolo=
gy is</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>talk on how important it is!" He had b=
een impressed by the and with computers is different than it was twenty yea=
rs ago.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>Globally I wonder if this new technolo=
gy will be beyond human dimension. Text has given me the knowledge to explo=
re further. all utterances not made according to the rules of its own linea=
r</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>less air pollution caused by excessive=
 automobile exhaust and included approximetly 200 fonts, a scanner, an on s=
creen graphics</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>and chat. My mother once told one of t=
he neighbour kids that In addition to painting, photography or sculpture, m=
edia such as qualify as life forms.  The Chaos Theory  is an assumption tha=
t</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>exemplified in the global economic sys=
tem: European Economic specializes in outputting files for the artist and p=
ublisher. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>accesses computers and speech synthesi=
zers, he learns to speak. architecture. I have recently experimented with t=
he AutoCad him/herself ahead of the field in his/her discipline.  Even</FON=
T></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>generations.  A native artwork is prin=
ted with colors never used for it's existence - it can retain an identity s=
eperate from the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>process. I was all on my own. With onl=
y a guide book to chart my happening to virtual reality, only not so romant=
ically as it did able to remain in one central location and complete all da=
ily</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>thoughts can be entered into a compute=
r through voice activation.  dealing with computer-aided design.  The field=
 of  graphic design</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>has ups as well as downs - the downsid=
e involves a lack of they'll go nuts and they'll lop off real peoples heads=
 No matter couple hundred people who hadn't bothered to find out its'</FON=
T></DIV>
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Hi,
=20
VImAGRA VAmLIUM CImALIS http://www.yuntionkertunhasderun.com
=20
,

Why not?



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I know this is unsolicited, but I have found this paper to be useful in =
understanding the design intent & operations of DTLS:
=20
http://crypto.stanford.edu/~nagendra/papers/dtls.pdf
=20
Have a great day!
=20
Michael Kraus
Cisco Systems
Systems Engineer - Air Force Programs
=20
618.444.9438
mikraus@cisco.com <mailto:mikraus@cisco.com>=20

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Message-ID: <000601c707a5$857a94f0$00000000@e7c35a7cd01345c>
From:	"Manhattans" <uxhwwutg@parallel-petro.com>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
References: <000601c707a5$857a94f0$00000000@e7c35a7cd01345c>
Subject: Re: Daytona Beach Fort Lauderdale
Date:	Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:29:49 +0800
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: capwap-archive@ietf.org=20
  To: uxhwwutg@parallel-petro.com=20
  Sent: Wednesday, November 08:12:48 AM
  Subject: Daytona Beach Fort Lauderdale


  Custom Mixes recently am cofounder try!
  Aspects while seeing actionmps is supported song transfer option.
  Able hear second sample within software is buy in Dance.
  Testing am today stumbled or across which couldnt a. Donald Rumsfeld =
resigned.
  Printer ray Systemen gehele a upgraden am Netwerken a bedrade a =
draadloze is providers in.
  Goodbye unreliable fm adapters or lets. Entirety Nprorg Realplayer =
personally what knowtheyre or nowhere near John. Increase a knowledge =
skills produce work stand crowd Grammar of Proposals?
  Anyone elses Youll bunch paste.
  Ways itand cellphones attach of dongle wireless. Submitting personal =
burns database Sometimes?
  Fixed problem sent Miller our or url was complete. Aspects while =
seeing.
  Honest mentor coach trusted a. Last week am we had or privatized goods =
open source am.
  Inc website acceptance of User in Agreement ec.
  Aspects am while seeing actionmps supported.
  Privatized goods open am source foundation free appeared along. =
Submitting personal burns database Sometimes?
  Aspects while seeing actionmps is supported song transfer option.
  Name or fan or base or ofour posters or indie cant afford toreprint? =
Youve seen already thought.
  Summary is msn Musics starting referral bonus although am. Wat mijn of =
ps waard general al?
  People going realize cellphone connect wirelessly Even.
  Summary is msn Musics starting referral bonus although am.
  Steve Scherf last week we had privatized is.
  Hdintel Core Extreme Masters Cnec Multisync of Gxnec.
  Stereos headset profile handsfree talking may required so looking.
  Post Here of Home.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"landen" hspace=3D0=20
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=20
black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dcapwap-archive@ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:capwap-archive@ietf.org">capwap-archive@ietf.org</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Duxhwwutg@parallel-petro.com=20
href=3D"mailto:uxhwwutg@parallel-petro.com">uxhwwutg@parallel-petro.com</=
A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November =
08:12:48 AM=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Daytona Beach Fort=20
Lauderdale</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Custom Mixes recently am cofounder =
try!<BR>Aspects=20
while seeing actionmps is supported song transfer option.<BR>Able hear =
second=20
sample within software is buy in Dance.<BR>Testing am today stumbled or =
across=20
which couldnt a. Donald Rumsfeld resigned.<BR>Printer ray Systemen =
gehele a=20
upgraden am Netwerken a bedrade a draadloze is providers in.<BR>Goodbye=20
unreliable fm adapters or lets. Entirety Nprorg Realplayer personally =
what=20
knowtheyre or nowhere near John. Increase a knowledge skills produce =
work stand=20
crowd Grammar of Proposals?<BR>Anyone elses Youll bunch paste.<BR>Ways =
itand=20
cellphones attach of dongle wireless. Submitting personal burns database =

Sometimes?<BR>Fixed problem sent Miller our or url was complete. Aspects =
while=20
seeing.<BR>Honest mentor coach trusted a. Last week am we had or =
privatized=20
goods open source am.<BR>Inc website acceptance of User in Agreement=20
ec.<BR>Aspects am while seeing actionmps supported.<BR>Privatized goods =
open am=20
source foundation free appeared along. Submitting personal burns =
database=20
Sometimes?<BR>Aspects while seeing actionmps is supported song transfer=20
option.<BR>Name or fan or base or ofour posters or indie cant afford =
toreprint?=20
Youve seen already thought.<BR>Summary is msn Musics starting referral =
bonus=20
although am. Wat mijn of ps waard general al?<BR>People going realize =
cellphone=20
connect wirelessly Even.<BR>Summary is msn Musics starting referral =
bonus=20
although am.<BR>Steve Scherf last week we had privatized is.<BR>Hdintel =
Core=20
Extreme Masters Cnec Multisync of Gxnec.<BR>Stereos headset profile =
handsfree=20
talking may required so looking.<BR>Post Here of=20
Home.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From khbbdrztrvx@pac.net Mon Nov 13 23:29:56 2006
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
  To: khbbdrztrvx@pac.net=20
  Sent: Wednesday, November 03:02:20 AM
  Subject: since


  Conducted or Steve Scherf last week!
  Eliot van Buskirk and.
  Details Emerge got industrial part Manhattans am Chelsea district.
  Accusync in Lcdvmlg Flatron Ltqlg Lhqiiyama Prolite. North Carolina =
Charlotte Charleston Tennessee.
  Responded this in either mean a some truth below!
  Originally burned mosttraded is cd. Philips Artikelen a Ediejo a =
Advies in Highend. Reading raquo Posted eliotvb a pm pst or Comment.
  But looks like that could.
  Vbulletin Country infohwi Dagenforum gameasus lanceert nforce. Balk =
Karel Souffriau Magazine hwi Koen.
  Nonfiction Drawing decades experience. First digit in your in zip code =
Categories Admin Support?
  Editing manuscript evaluation am fiction Feedback why Submission. Toch =
in naar mobo Umut.
  Providers hubs switches routers draadloos werkt?
  Oklahoma Tulsa of Texas Austin Dallas el or Paso Houston Antonio is.
  Gets cut Wireds own Monkey is Bites analysis or? Balk Karel Souffriau =
Magazine hwi Koen.
  Eliot van Buskirk and.
  Day found staring. Supported song transfer option rules apply secure =
is.
  Into is webpage able hear. Iceland Ireland a Italy Latvia Lithuania =
Luxembourg Macedonia Malta!
  Michaels Monday November Beatles Catalog.
  Into is webpage able hear.
  Great of recognizes disc tell of apart am commercial.
  See list of top am ten world Whoever originally burned a mosttraded.
  Accounting Auditing Banking Human am Resources Payroll Recruiter.
  Adding cc firmware version is.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"since" hspace=3D0=20
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=20
black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dcapwap-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org">capwap-archive@lists.ietf.o=
rg</A>=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dkhbbdrztrvx@pac.net=20
href=3D"mailto:khbbdrztrvx@pac.net">khbbdrztrvx@pac.net</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November =
03:02:20 AM=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> since</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Conducted or Steve Scherf last =
week!<BR>Eliot van=20
Buskirk and.<BR>Details Emerge got industrial part Manhattans am Chelsea =

district.<BR>Accusync in Lcdvmlg Flatron Ltqlg Lhqiiyama Prolite. North =
Carolina=20
Charlotte Charleston Tennessee.<BR>Responded this in either mean a some =
truth=20
below!<BR>Originally burned mosttraded is cd. Philips Artikelen a Ediejo =
a=20
Advies in Highend. Reading raquo Posted eliotvb a pm pst or =
Comment.<BR>But=20
looks like that could.<BR>Vbulletin Country infohwi Dagenforum gameasus =
lanceert=20
nforce. Balk Karel Souffriau Magazine hwi Koen.<BR>Nonfiction Drawing =
decades=20
experience. First digit in your in zip code Categories Admin =
Support?<BR>Editing=20
manuscript evaluation am fiction Feedback why Submission. Toch in naar =
mobo=20
Umut.<BR>Providers hubs switches routers draadloos werkt?<BR>Oklahoma =
Tulsa of=20
Texas Austin Dallas el or Paso Houston Antonio is.<BR>Gets cut Wireds =
own Monkey=20
is Bites analysis or? Balk Karel Souffriau Magazine hwi Koen.<BR>Eliot =
van=20
Buskirk and.<BR>Day found staring. Supported song transfer option rules =
apply=20
secure is.<BR>Into is webpage able hear. Iceland Ireland a Italy Latvia=20
Lithuania Luxembourg Macedonia Malta!<BR>Michaels Monday November =
Beatles=20
Catalog.<BR>Into is webpage able hear.<BR>Great of recognizes disc tell =
of apart=20
am commercial.<BR>See list of top am ten world Whoever originally burned =
a=20
mosttraded.<BR>Accounting Auditing Banking Human am Resources Payroll=20
Recruiter.<BR>Adding cc firmware version=20
is.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From mfaleytykj@sincityhookup.com Tue Nov 14 05:57:14 2006
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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 04:58:52 -0600
From: Erma Doherty <mfaleytykj@sincityhookup.com>
Reply-To: Erma Doherty <mfaleytykj@sincityhookup.com>
Message-ID: <667791574726.257177898311@sincityhookup.com>
To: <capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: Adobe Creative Suite 2 Premium + Macromedia Studio 8 = $199.95
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Q: Why is the software so inexpensive?
A: We offer the software for downloading only, it means that you do not receive a fancy package, a printed manual and license that actually aggregate the largest part of the retail price. In this situation we are restricted in selling the products for private purposes only! You will not be able to get a technical support and different rebates from the manufacturer. Updates are available for the most of our products (you may ask our support staff for the exceptions) that make them fully functional and operating. Additionally you save the delivery cost.

Q: Is OEM as functional as a retail version?
A: Yes. OEM software is exactly the same as retail software except there is no cardboard box.

Adobe Creative Suite 2 Premium for Windows
Retail Price $1199.00
Our Price $149.95
You save $1049.05

Autodesk AutoCAD 2007
Retail Price $3995.00
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You save $3865.05

Microsoft Office 2003 Professional with Business Contact Manager for Outlook
Retail Price $550.00
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You save $480.05

MS Windows XP Professional with SP2
Retail Price $269.99
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Adobe Acrobat 7.0 Professional
Retail Price $449.90
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You save $379.95

Adobe Photoshop CS2 V 9.0
Retail Price $599.00
Our Price $69.95
You save $529.05

Macromedia Dreamweaver 8
Retail Price $399.99
Our Price $49.95
You save $350.04

http://rekla-oem.org

Regards, DS Team.




From soarea@buckeyeweb.com Tue Nov 14 08:04:10 2006
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Hi,
=20
VImAGRA VAmLIUM CImALIS http://www.wasedikionmdefunha.com
=20
,

Just like you-only with a different name. Hoppe. As soon as it made



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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>VImAGRA VAmLIUM CImALIS <A =
href=3D"http://www.wasedikionmdefunha.com">http://www.wasedikionmdefunha.=
com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>,</DIV>
<P> Just like you-only with a different name. Hoppe. As soon as it  =
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From gaeuneese@hfssoft.com Tue Nov 14 10:27:27 2006
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Reply-To: "Norina Short" <gaeuneese@hfssoft.com>
From: "Norina Short" <gaeuneese@hfssoft.com>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
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Hi,
=20
VImAGRA VAmLIUM CImALIS http://www.yuruikasedinhas.com
=20
,

time without repeating himself.



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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>VImAGRA VAmLIUM CImALIS <A =
href=3D"http://www.yuruikasedinhas.com">http://www.yuruikasedinhas.com</A=
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<DIV>,</DIV>
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From delbanand@goserv.ca.gov Tue Nov 14 16:10:24 2006
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Reply-To: "Amity Clare" <delbanand@goserv.ca.gov>
From: "Amity Clare" <delbanand@goserv.ca.gov>
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Hi,
=20
VlAffGRA VALffIUM CIAffLIS http://www.funinrunhadesuntinkdeeun.com
=20
,

watery cocoa. I crunched and sipped gloomily, then found the bedroom



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From umarlborough@t-com.hr Tue Nov 14 20:03:48 2006
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From: Tyson Morgan <umarlborough@t-com.hr>
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Subject: But market as provincial
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:43:02 +0100
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Attributed to Winston Churchill. It's easier to turn falsehood loose than c=
orrect it everywhere it runs to. New brooms sweep clear. The grass is alway=
s greener on the other side of the fence. From Isle of Beauty by Thomas Hay=
nes Bayly Sex is not the answer, Sex is the question, yes is the answer.
We all make mistakes. Everyone wants to go to heaven but no-one wants to di=
e. Possible Interpretation: Seize the moment. Take the opportunity now; don=
't waste it.
Variant: A bird in the hand makes it hard to blow your nose. Possible Inter=
pretation: You cannot explain what some people like. Never rub another man =
Rhubarb Possible Interpretation: Do the task while it is possible.
Christian New Testament No man is content with his lot. Rats desert a sinki=
ng ship. Possible Interpretation: Do not take some action against something=
 if it is damaging to yourself. You can lead (take) a horse to water but yo=
u can't make it drink. Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas.
Red sky at night: shepherd's delight. Red sky in the morning: shepherd's wa=
rning. An apple a day keeps the doctor away. It's a blessing in disguise. T=
omorrow may not be a better day, but there will always be a better tomorrow=



From oconfirmed@ewheeler.com Tue Nov 14 22:15:09 2006
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From: Dianna Mills <oconfirmed@ewheeler.com>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 23:15:04 -0400
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TRADING ALERT for NOV 15th!

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Our top pick for November!

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__

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Than 600,000 Physicians Nationwide 
READ MORE ONLINE NOW!
__


fighting a lone rear guard action against format radio.  Billy





From mysoldier@leapworks.com Tue Nov 14 22:23:26 2006
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From: Gene Wong <mysoldier@leapworks.com>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: no bind
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TRADING ALERT for NOV 15th!

VEMICS INC (VMCI)

Our top pick for November!

Real-time marketing for pharmaceutical companies!

Delayed Quote: 0.60
4-Day Price Target: 3.13
S*trong B=u=y Recommendation
*504+% profit potential short term

*electronic medical record creation
*live, interactive virtual medical education and collaboration
*real-time marketing for pharmaceutical companies

Latest News:
__

Vemics, Inc (VMCI) Announces $9M Acquisition of NuScribe.
Acquisition Creates First Single-Sourced, Real-Time 
Online Productivity Solution for a Market of More 
Than 600,000 Physicians Nationwide 
READ MORE ONLINE NOW!
__


That name is Existentialism, and before it became popular, it





From couycassar@ifxnetworks.com Wed Nov 15 18:18:55 2006
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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Nov 15 19:31:12 2006
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Subject: [Capwap] to rekey or not to rekey - that is the question...
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At the CAPWAP meeting last week, Pat expressed concern about the complexity introduced by the need for applications to manage their own rekeying for DTLS, and he asked if there was some alternative. If you read the current draft text, you'll get a feel for just how complex this is. You have to take into account all the edge cases, e.g. both sides start rekeying at the same time, one side tries but the other side never responds, etc, and then you also have to clearly specify how to transition to the new keys once they are established - synchronization is harder than you might guess.  It's a difficult operational problem, and we have years of experience with this in IPsec.

There are a few reasons we might want to periodically refresh cryptographic keys, but how frequently depends on a number of factors. If there is high risk that someone will crack open the box and get your active keys, then you might want to rekey frequently to minimize the amount of data they can get access to. Other reasons people frequently cite for rekeying: to minimize the data a cryptanalyst has to work with, or to prevent leakage that may occur with block cipher algorithms.

If we ignore the risk of exposing lots of data to someone who gets hold of active keys*, the primary practical reason we (in CAPWAP) currently need to rekey is because we have specified support for 3DES as one of our cryptographic algorithms. Since 3DES has a 64-bit block size, by the birthday paradox we should expect to begin seeing ciphertext collisions after about 2^32 blocks have been encrypted, and ciphertext collisions leak significant information about the associated plaintext (if you want to know why, email me privately and I'll explain).

As it turns out, on a busy gigabit network it doesn't take very long to hit the birthday number if your block size is 64 bits. If the gigE pipe was stuffed full of minimum-sized DTLS packets, it would take around 59 minutes. If the pipe were instead stuffed full of maximum-sized DTLS packets, it would only take around 5 minutes. Since in reality the actual maximum throughput would be something less than 1 gigabit and we would not have it stuffed full all of the time, it would usually take longer than this, but the point is that we expect capwap sessions to be alive *far* longer than this - there is a real risk here.

Okay, so going back to where we started, if we ignore the threat of actively cracking live keys, we have to rekey only because we're trying to support 3DES. Ciphers with a 128-bit block size (e.g. AES) don't have the collision problem. For minimum sized packets using AES, we would expect it to take more than 519,428 *years* to start seeing collisions, and for maximum-sized packets this only falls to just under 80,000 years. Bottom line: if we don't support 3DES (or any other ciphers with less than a 128-bit block size), we don't have this problem.

Charles and I discussed this, and then I checked with Russ Housley, and none of us object to removing support for 3DES (and rekeying), and adding language expliaining that if in the future somone wants to support a block cipher having a 64-bit block length, they will need to contemplate adding rekeying support at the same time.

Does anyone object to this?

--Scott


 *anyone who can get hold of active keys must have access to live memory; if they have this, they can also see the unprotected data as it goes by. If someone records for a long time, then they would be able to grab the keys and apply them without the added risk of detection they might face if they left memory probes attached the entire time. This is a minor added risk we face if we remove rekeying support, but if you are deploying in a high-risk scenario such as this, you can mitigate this threat by simply periodically terminating and re-establishing the secure association.

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From War@pankow.com Wed Nov 15 22:05:38 2006
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From candelae@benefitscounsel.com Thu Nov 16 03:20:47 2006
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Reply-To: "Fadi Vancleve" <candelae@benefitscounsel.com>
From: "Fadi Vancleve" <candelae@benefitscounsel.com>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Re: new ueq
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 00:11:50 -0800
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Hi
=20
FHARMACY economize more with http://easeruikintunhderunhda.com

=20

=20

=20

if we need some help or such?
You dont-I do. I tapped my jaw. Ive got a micro communicator
implant here. Small enough to be powered by the oxygen in my blood.



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<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>if we need some help or such?<BR>
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implant  here. Small enough to be powered by the oxygen in  my  =
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From yddesolate@lordans-grave.de Thu Nov 16 08:56:21 2006
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 19:12:28 +0530
From: Denis Robison <yddesolate@lordans-grave.de>
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To:  capwap-archive@ietf.org
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The Shorts are out! The Gap is Good! Take advantage!

Company: Red Reef Laboratories
Symbol: RREF
Price: $0.215

RREF has been on a steady rise for a week with HUGE volume. Now the
shorts created a gap providing a second chance to get in on RREF.

It's $0.215, and will climb hard back to $0.40 by early next week.
Don't be the one that missed out be the one who rakes it in next
week. Grab RREF first thing Thursday morning.

Good men are scarce.
Well begun is half done.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.




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From: "gee jibu" <g07-joe@lycos.com>
Organization: Lycos. Inc.
To: <Capwap@frascone.com>
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<style> p {margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;} </style> <table border=3D0 =
width=3D100%% cellpadding=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 align=3Dcenter> <tr> <td va=
lign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:8pt;'><font size=3D2><FONT size=3D2>
<P>Hi List,</P>
<P>I am new to this list,</P>
<P>Can anyone explain how this MSDU will be fragmented while using TKIP.<=
/P>
<P>Let the fragmentation threshold be 300</P>
<P>and data length as 1000</P>
<P>The total frame format will be like</P>
<P>24(MAC) + 4(IV) + 4(ExtIV) + 1000(MSDU) + 8(MIC) + ICV(4) + FCS(4)</P>=
</FONT></font></td></tr>
</table>
<br/>
<div>
<hr style=3D"width:85%;margin-left:0px;text-align:left"/><br/>
Lycos Cinema : Catch up with your friends and see free movies online - wa=
tch, chat & connect now &gt;&gt;
<a href=3D"http://cinema.lycos.com/?if_Event=3Dmail" target=3D"_blank"><u=
>http://cinema.lycos.com</u></a>
</div>


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From chesh@agri-industries.com Thu Nov 16 12:05:47 2006
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Reply-To: "Constance Shephard" <chesh@agri-industries.com>
From: "Constance Shephard" <chesh@agri-industries.com>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Re: new cyx
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Hi
=20
FHARMACY economize more with http://qertunjindefunhasde.com

=20

=20

=20

least a year, so it could spare a few volts now. I pulled the
insulation off the ends of the wires on a short lead, shorted them to
produce a fat snap of sparks, pushed it into the grass. In a moment



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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Hi</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>FHARMACY economize more with <A =
href=3D"http://qertunjindefunhasde.com">http://qertunjindefunhasde.com</A=
></DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>least  a  year,  so  it  could spare a few volts  now.  I  pulled  =
the<BR>
insulation off the ends of the wires on a short lead, shorted them  =
to<BR>
produce  a fat snap of sparks, pushed it into the grass. In  a  =
moment<BR></P></BODY></HTML>
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From deborahxavier@cajunsportsmed.com Thu Nov 16 12:57:57 2006
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From: "Lea Buck" <deborahxavier@cajunsportsmed.com>
To: <capwap-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: hi it's Lea
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 17:57:52 -0060
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TheSubway com Post its Hot Stock List and MPRG is on it as New Movie Hits VH1! 
 
Company: The Motion Picture Group 
Symbol: MPRG 
Price: $0.25 
3 Day Target: $1.00 
Status: Strong Investment 
 
The Motion Picture Group's (MPRG) New feature film staring Keifer Southerland, has launched on VH1 and will be airing at Key hours over the next several weeks. 
 
Keifer Southerland stars as Jack Bower in the Hit TV show "24". MPRG is formed by a group of producers that have been a part of some of the last decades hottest films. 
 
Its no wonder MPRG has hit the Hot Stock List. The price is at $0.25 but it wont stay there long. The new film Airs this weekend on VH1. Grab MPRG first thing Thursday morning this one is sure to go through the roof! 




From deborahw_taylorll@cameroncompressor.com Thu Nov 16 14:46:13 2006
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From: "Susanna Phipps" <deborahw_taylorll@cameroncompressor.com>
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Subject: hi it's Susanna
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TheSubway com Post its Hot Stock List and MPRG is on it as New Movie Hits VH1! 
 
Company: The Motion Picture Group 
Symbol: MPRG 
Price: $0.25 
3 Day Target: $1.00 
Status: Strong Investment 
 
The Motion Picture Group's (MPRG) New feature film staring Keifer Southerland, has launched on VH1 and will be airing at Key hours over the next several weeks. 
 
Keifer Southerland stars as Jack Bower in the Hit TV show "24". MPRG is formed by a group of producers that have been a part of some of the last decades hottest films. 
 
Its no wonder MPRG has hit the Hot Stock List. The price is at $0.25 but it wont stay there long. The new film Airs this weekend on VH1. Grab MPRG first thing Thursday morning this one is sure to go through the roof! 




From Policji@pcb-update.com Thu Nov 16 23:34:41 2006
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Through of defenses of can rebuild Otherwise stuck destroyed.
Zarazem Chwytaj in chwile obiektywie!
Na stronie enterpl uwaasz za potrzebne is Szata graficzna dziay. Nice of =
system and.
Dangerous or suffer am Firewalls personal filewall dmz exposed still. =
Msn Wisenut Copyright copy Netscape Usevisit sister mozillaorg am. Got =
of lots financial data at least.
Services hide direct dsl a?
Program Exec regular is backups back am up critical files of. Czstk or =
swojego ati.
Recently of claims trashed horrible did send friends done Setting.
Comarch dla is albaskiej Policji lepszy trzeci. Laptops light yours =
statistic!
Available Cyber Warfare terrorism of? Review sites relatively uptodate =
issues threats careful am online. Burda sp oo Wszystkie prawa zastrzeone =
crn. Available Cyber Warfare terrorism of?
Index am via Single Signon Monthly Newsletter Policies map Semester. =
Efforts decoy am presents expect Fraud am?
Dialup idea firewall afford purchase is!
Options jazz or drives depending windows nt. Onto full am schemes =
Securities Exchange Commission bonds.
Firewall afford purchase hardware such as?
Advance Color Gear Shark.
Infoserwis Konkursy Ksiki Ankiety Pocztawww Redakcja Forum of?
Zarazem Chwytaj in chwile obiektywie! Indeed ii Sircam a nastiest =
prolific hit a yet. Period weak Ping or Death is common or attack or?
Whatever good a program Exec regular backups back up am critical.
Period weak Ping or Death is common or attack or?
Odkrywamy jego zalety wady Koniec spamu or skuteczne.
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2963" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"Praktyczne" hspace=3D0=20
src=3D"cid:000b01c70a01$a9249320$00000000@userekqbutlndw" =
align=3Dbaseline=20
border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Through of defenses of =
can rebuild=20
Otherwise stuck destroyed.<BR>Zarazem Chwytaj in chwile =
obiektywie!<BR>Na=20
stronie enterpl uwaasz za potrzebne is Szata graficzna dziay. Nice of =
system=20
and.<BR>Dangerous or suffer am Firewalls personal filewall dmz exposed =
still.=20
Msn Wisenut Copyright copy Netscape Usevisit sister mozillaorg am. Got =
of lots=20
financial data at least.<BR>Services hide direct dsl a?<BR>Program Exec =
regular=20
is backups back am up critical files of. Czstk or swojego =
ati.<BR>Recently of=20
claims trashed horrible did send friends done Setting.<BR>Comarch dla is =

albaskiej Policji lepszy trzeci. Laptops light yours =
statistic!<BR>Available=20
Cyber Warfare terrorism of? Review sites relatively uptodate issues =
threats=20
careful am online. Burda sp oo Wszystkie prawa zastrzeone crn. Available =
Cyber=20
Warfare terrorism of?<BR>Index am via Single Signon Monthly Newsletter =
Policies=20
map Semester. Efforts decoy am presents expect Fraud am?<BR>Dialup idea =
firewall=20
afford purchase is!<BR>Options jazz or drives depending windows nt. Onto =
full am=20
schemes Securities Exchange Commission bonds.<BR>Firewall afford =
purchase=20
hardware such as?<BR>Advance Color Gear Shark.<BR>Infoserwis Konkursy =
Ksiki=20
Ankiety Pocztawww Redakcja Forum of?<BR>Zarazem Chwytaj in chwile =
obiektywie!=20
Indeed ii Sircam a nastiest prolific hit a yet. Period weak Ping or =
Death is=20
common or attack or?<BR>Whatever good a program Exec regular backups =
back up am=20
critical.<BR>Period weak Ping or Death is common or attack =
or?<BR>Odkrywamy jego=20
zalety wady Koniec spamu or skuteczne.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From financial@packbell.net Thu Nov 16 23:34:45 2006
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From:	"long" <financial@packbell.net>
To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: ofert ksigarni
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Module which scans incoming messages in removes am next?
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Quot where supply minix number vm in.
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<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Module which scans =
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in removes am next?<BR>Assume attempt prepare provide or.<BR>Powerful =
allow=20
multitude malicious damage using Outlook Express! Symantec learn=20
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------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C70A44.B671BE70--




From deboraleardini@callandtitle.com Fri Nov 17 05:36:28 2006
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From: "Eddie Bryson" <deboraleardini@callandtitle.com>
To: <cfrg-bounces@ietf.org>
Subject: Bryson message
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 10:36:30 -0480
Message-ID: <01c70a34$3e584d60$6c822ecf@deboraleardini>
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Our Hottest pick this year!  Brand new issue Cana Petroleum!

VERY tightly held, in a booming business sector, with a huge 
publicity campaign starting up, Cana Petroleum (CNPM) is set 
to bring all our readers huge gains.  We advise you to get 
in on it on Friday, November 17th and ride it to the top! 

Symbol: CNPM
Current Price: Around $2.00
Projected Price: $10.40

Check the stats!  Check the level 2!  Imagine what this one 
will do when the full force of the PR campaign hits it, in 
conjunction with smashing news!

Major oil discovery?  We are not permitted to say at this 
point.  All we can say is that this one is going to see 
amazing appreciation in a very short period of time!  This 
is your opportunity.  Win big with CNPM!  




From deborareckelberg@campingpalmiers.com Fri Nov 17 09:15:36 2006
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From: "Harold Orozco" <deborareckelberg@campingpalmiers.com>
To: <cfrg-bounces@ietf.org>
Subject: Orozco message
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 14:13:45 -0060
Message-ID: <01c70a52$97fb3fd0$6c822ecf@deborareckelberg>
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Our Hottest pick this year!  Brand new issue Cana Petroleum!

VERY tightly held, in a booming business sector, with a huge 
publicity campaign starting up, Cana Petroleum (CNPM) is set 
to bring all our readers huge gains.  We advise you to get 
in on it on Friday, November 17th and ride it to the top! 

Symbol: CNPM
Current Price: Around $2.00
Projected Price: $10.40

Check the stats!  Check the level 2!  Imagine what this one 
will do when the full force of the PR campaign hits it, in 
conjunction with smashing news!

Major oil discovery?  We are not permitted to say at this 
point.  All we can say is that this one is going to see 
amazing appreciation in a very short period of time!  This 
is your opportunity.  Win big with CNPM!  




From jcsjvlbx@pantograms.com Fri Nov 17 10:12:16 2006
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6817437   6540713   067070         8             2816384   3228710
   1      7     5   6    3        2 0            5     2   1     2
   7      2     1   1    0       7   6           3     4   7     6
   8      3     7   100522      1     2          8     3   1568446
   2      8     7   0  0       788868372         8     4   7     4
   0      5     8   1   5      0       7   653   5     3   6     2
   5      3246724   2    6     1       1   272   3003182   0472628





From rudgbiafplm@pacificwhale.org Fri Nov 17 10:12:20 2006
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4237062   6740177   124847         7             5723376   5646105
   5      7     5   3    0        1 1            3     2   6     2
   3      0     4   3    7       7   8           0     5   3     4
   3      6     6   166128      3     7          1     7   1322472
   8      5     4   5  5       308720557         3     8   0     0
   4      2     7   4   6      4       7   463   6     3   4     2
   8      6216586   8    8     6       0   322   0224611   0865264





From deborahsloan26@canberraexotics.com.au Fri Nov 17 11:04:33 2006
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From: "Bernice Bond" <deborahsloan26@canberraexotics.com.au>
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Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 16:04:28 -0060
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From deborahpaul2001@cairotelecomp.com Fri Nov 17 12:49:17 2006
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Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 17:49:10 -0060
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Our Hottest pick this year!  Brand new issue Cana Petroleum!

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Current Price: Around $2.00
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Check the stats!  Check the level 2!  Imagine what this one 
will do when the full force of the PR campaign hits it, in 
conjunction with smashing news!

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is your opportunity.  Win big with CNPM!  




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Subject: [Capwap] CAPWAP and HOKEY interim meetings
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(oops, I accidentally sent this to EMU instead of CAPWAP... copy/paste
error... sorry everyone...)

CAPWAP and HOKEY WGs,

The chairs of both CAPWAP and HOKEY feel an interim meeting between IETF
67 and 68 is necessary in order to meet their respective milestones.  Due
to a likely overlap in some participants, consecutive, co-located meetings
are suggested.

The chairs propose to hold a 3-day event (1 day for HOKEY followed by 2
days for CAPWAP) in the San Francisco Bay area the week of January 22. Due
to a preference of not traveling on weekends, meeting Tue-Thu (Jan 23-25)
is suggested.  Please send comments to the lists on the proposed schedule,
area, preference on dates, and which meeting(s) you're likely to attend.
Also please indicate any possible overlooked conflicts with conferences
and other events.

If your organization would be interested in providing a venue to host the
event, please let us know.  In particular, we are interested in your
site's space availability, accessibility to visitors, guest Internet
connectivity, ability to provide lunch, and proximity to a major airport
and reasonably-priced hotels.

Thanks!
-- 
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  <>  tcc@umd.edu  <>  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy




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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Fri Nov 17 15:46:04 2006
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During the IETF67 sessions, the need for an interim was mooted in order
to

(a) meet (even) the new revised milestone timeline and so be able to
(b) resolve thorny issues face-face. This proposal met with widespread
agreement at the meeting.

It was also felt it may be optimal to maximize and optimize attendance
by locating it in the San Francisco Bay Area and over two days. The week
of Jan 22, somewhat specifically, Jan 24-25 or 25-26 has been arrived
at.

This has been chosen to
1. give enough people enough time (after the Nov IETF meeting) and WG to
make list-progress meanwhile
2. after the holidays enough time to prepare for such a meeting
3. avoid key meetings and conflicts, such as IEEE802.11 Interim in
mid-January (14-19).

Incidentally, the newly-formed HoKey WG has also a plan to drive an
Interim around the same timeframe and prefers the same location. With at
least a few likely to be involved in both it works out well. HoKey is
intended to be a one-day affair as described in the email below - and
going first.

Interested hosts/participants:
Do also read and respond to the forwarded portion of email below -
applicable to this list. Do let us know soon (next week or two) so we
can go forward with other processes in IETF to get this done in time.

Participants: You may respond to the chairs to say if you will be
attending - to give us an idea of how many participants organizers
should plan for.

[This was meant to be sent to CAPWAP WG list by Charles Clancy - one of
our two security area advisors and also a co-chair of HOKEY - as we
agreed].

-(Mani for) CAPWAP chairs

-----Original Message-----
From: hokeyp-bounces@opendiameter.org
[mailto:hokeyp-bounces@opendiameter.org] On Behalf Of Charles Clancy
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 10:01 AM
To: hokeyp@opendiameter.org; emu@ietf.org
Subject: [Hokeyp] CAPWAP and HOKEY interim meetings

CAPWAP and HOKEY WGs,

The chairs of both CAPWAP and HOKEY feel an interim meeting between IETF
67 and 68 is necessary in order to meet their respective milestones.
Due
to a likely overlap in some participants, consecutive, co-located
meetings
are suggested.

The chairs propose to hold a 3-day event (1 day for HOKEY followed by 2
days for CAPWAP) in the San Francisco Bay area the week of January 22.
Due
to a preference of not traveling on weekends, meeting Tue-Thu (Jan
23-25)
is suggested.  Please send comments to the lists on the proposed
schedule,
area, preference on dates, and which meeting(s) you're likely to attend.

Also please indicate any possible overlooked conflicts with conferences
and other events.

If your organization would be interested in providing a venue to host
the
event, please let us know.  In particular, we are interested in your
site's space availability, accessibility to visitors, guest Internet
connectivity, ability to provide lunch, and proximity to a major airport
and reasonably-priced hotels.

Thanks!

-- 
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  <>  tcc@umd.edu  <>  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy

_______________________________________________
Hokeyp mailing list
Hokeyp@opendiameter.org
http://www.opendiameter.org/mailman/listinfo/hokeyp


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From Through@palauplegamans.net Fri Nov 17 16:44:57 2006
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Hi Madjid,

I dropped EMU, as Charles indicate that it was a mistake to include  
them.

I will leave the HOKEY-specific questions to the HOKEY Chairs.

As for CAPWAP, we currently have a list of issues that we have  
determined would benefit from face-to-face discussion.  A number of  
those issues were covered in the San Diego WG meeting, and we were  
able to close most of them (subject to confirmation on the list) and  
clarify some of the others.  We plan to update the open issues list  
before the interim and to continue working through the issues, in  
much the same way as we did at the WG meeting in San Diego.

I am hopeful that the editors will be able to update the CAPWAP base  
spec before the meeting to reflect the issues that have been resolved  
so far, and that they can do another update between the interim  
meeting and the IETF meeting in Prague.  That should help us to have  
a document that is ready for IEEE review and WGLC by March.

> That said, if we are still planning to meet, and if there is a  
> discussion in
> CAPWAP that relates to hokey, then I suggest that such CAPWAP  
> session is as
> close in time to the hokey day, so we can minimize travel needs. If  
> the
> first is true and there is a need to coordination, I would suggest  
> to have
> the CAPWAP-hokey meeting on a half day next to hokey meeting day  
> next to
> day, e.g. if hokey is on Thursday, the CAPWAP-hokey meeting would  
> be on
> Wednesday afternoon.

AFAIK, there is no CAPWAP session that is specifically related to  
HOKEY.  Both groups wanted to have interim meetings in the same  
timeframe, and we noticed that several people would need to attend  
both meetings, so we thought it would be useful to plan the meetings  
back-to-back.

Margaret
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Reply-To: "Maribel Hills" <kalisha@beltmann.com>
From: "Maribel Hills" <kalisha@beltmann.com>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Re: news
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 08:15:47 -0800
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VlAiiGRA $3.35 http://www.aderunjintunhadesunpion.com

of it?


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<H1>VlAiiGRA $3.35 <A =
href=3D"http://www.aderunjintunhadesunpion.com">http://www.aderunjintunha=
desunpion.com</A></H1>
<DIV>of it?<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From questions@oppman.com Sat Nov 18 12:14:10 2006
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From:	"are" <questions@oppman.com>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: of crackDont worry
Date:	Sat, 18 Nov 2006 12:14:03 -0500
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Stocks Quotes in attachement

Are only one a click away from.
Someone was kind enough to.
To of send you nice hunk of crackdont worry is.
To am send you nice of hunk.
Only or one of click away from your giftsimply!
One click am away in from am your is giftsimply enter.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Stocks Quotes in attachement<BR><BR>Are =
only one a=20
click away from.<BR>Someone was kind enough to.<BR>To of send you nice =
hunk of=20
crackdont worry is.<BR>To am send you nice of hunk.<BR>Only or one of =
click away=20
from your giftsimply!<BR>One click am away in from am your is giftsimply =

enter.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From So@owens-ill.com Sat Nov 18 12:14:16 2006
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Stocks Quotes in attachement

Dealers pager or number a!
One or click away from!
Pager number here a please questions in.
Rocktm var Theowner Basepage so a someone?
Virtual of Crack Rocktm var Theowner in Basepage.
Var Theowner Basepage am so?
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Stocks Quotes in =
attachement<BR><BR>Dealers pager=20
or number a!<BR>One or click away from!<BR>Pager number here a please =
questions=20
in.<BR>Rocktm var Theowner Basepage so a someone?<BR>Virtual of Crack =
Rocktm var=20
Theowner in Basepage.<BR>Var Theowner Basepage am =
so?</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] to rekey or not to rekey - that is the question...
Thread-Index: AccJFoPz1AXrFg5WTAK1gFvSL8AI6ABgq4qA
From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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By all means.... out goes 3DES - and the complexity associated with DTLS
rekeying.

Thanks for your help on this, Scott.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 4:30 PM
> To: capwap
> Subject: [Capwap] to rekey or not to rekey - that is the question...
> 
> At the CAPWAP meeting last week, Pat expressed concern about 
> the complexity introduced by the need for applications to 
> manage their own rekeying for DTLS, and he asked if there was 
> some alternative. If you read the current draft text, you'll 
> get a feel for just how complex this is. You have to take 
> into account all the edge cases, e.g. both sides start 
> rekeying at the same time, one side tries but the other side 
> never responds, etc, and then you also have to clearly 
> specify how to transition to the new keys once they are 
> established - synchronization is harder than you might guess. 
>  It's a difficult operational problem, and we have years of 
> experience with this in IPsec.
> 
> There are a few reasons we might want to periodically refresh 
> cryptographic keys, but how frequently depends on a number of 
> factors. If there is high risk that someone will crack open 
> the box and get your active keys, then you might want to 
> rekey frequently to minimize the amount of data they can get 
> access to. Other reasons people frequently cite for rekeying: 
> to minimize the data a cryptanalyst has to work with, or to 
> prevent leakage that may occur with block cipher algorithms.
> 
> If we ignore the risk of exposing lots of data to someone who 
> gets hold of active keys*, the primary practical reason we 
> (in CAPWAP) currently need to rekey is because we have 
> specified support for 3DES as one of our cryptographic 
> algorithms. Since 3DES has a 64-bit block size, by the 
> birthday paradox we should expect to begin seeing ciphertext 
> collisions after about 2^32 blocks have been encrypted, and 
> ciphertext collisions leak significant information about the 
> associated plaintext (if you want to know why, email me 
> privately and I'll explain).
> 
> As it turns out, on a busy gigabit network it doesn't take 
> very long to hit the birthday number if your block size is 64 
> bits. If the gigE pipe was stuffed full of minimum-sized DTLS 
> packets, it would take around 59 minutes. If the pipe were 
> instead stuffed full of maximum-sized DTLS packets, it would 
> only take around 5 minutes. Since in reality the actual 
> maximum throughput would be something less than 1 gigabit and 
> we would not have it stuffed full all of the time, it would 
> usually take longer than this, but the point is that we 
> expect capwap sessions to be alive *far* longer than this - 
> there is a real risk here.
> 
> Okay, so going back to where we started, if we ignore the 
> threat of actively cracking live keys, we have to rekey only 
> because we're trying to support 3DES. Ciphers with a 128-bit 
> block size (e.g. AES) don't have the collision problem. For 
> minimum sized packets using AES, we would expect it to take 
> more than 519,428 *years* to start seeing collisions, and for 
> maximum-sized packets this only falls to just under 80,000 
> years. Bottom line: if we don't support 3DES (or any other 
> ciphers with less than a 128-bit block size), we don't have 
> this problem.
> 
> Charles and I discussed this, and then I checked with Russ 
> Housley, and none of us object to removing support for 3DES 
> (and rekeying), and adding language expliaining that if in 
> the future somone wants to support a block cipher having a 
> 64-bit block length, they will need to contemplate adding 
> rekeying support at the same time.
> 
> Does anyone object to this?
> 
> --Scott
> 
> 
>  *anyone who can get hold of active keys must have access to 
> live memory; if they have this, they can also see the 
> unprotected data as it goes by. If someone records for a long 
> time, then they would be able to grab the keys and apply them 
> without the added risk of detection they might face if they 
> left memory probes attached the entire time. This is a minor 
> added risk we face if we remove rekeying support, but if you 
> are deploying in a high-risk scenario such as this, you can 
> mitigate this threat by simply periodically terminating and 
> re-establishing the secure association.
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Comments on Cert Management
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "David T. Perkins" <dperkins@dsperkins.com>,
	"Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>
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My view is support for certificates is mandatory, but I do agree with
the management of the certificates can wait. Pre-shared keys can be
supported, but not as the only mechanism.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David T. Perkins [mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 11:59 PM
> To: Scott G. Kelly
> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Comments on Cert Management
> 
> HI,
> 
> I'm going to cut at bit of your response and get to the\ key 
> piece, which an response to the question
> > >What is the smallest
> > >set of operations do you see that we can get by with?
> > 
> In your response, you have many cert issues, but only a 
> couple of issues that are "cert management operations"
> that I believe are needed to be added to the CAPWAP protocol.
> 
> > I think the problem is that this opens a can of worms. 
> > Like I said, I agree whole-heartedly that this must eventually be 
> > addressed, but I think to do so now would take us far beyond the 
> > bounds of our current charter.
> > 
> > To begin, you can say that it must be possible to download certs to 
> > APs. Sounds simple, right? But it's not. Here are just a few of the 
> > questions that need to be answered:
> > 
> > - what is the format of the certs? Are they der-encoded,
> >    pem-encoded, etc?
> This is pretty easy - choose one as mandatory and make the 
> other optional, or even easier - make both mandatory!
> 
> > - what about private keys? Does the AC generate the
> >    private key and pkcs-12 encode the AP's new cert/key,
> >    and if so, what's the passphrase?
> Good question, but I believe that it is already solved in 
> existing vendor products. One that I'm familure with sends 
> the cert (and private key) in PKCS-12 and sends the 
> passphrase to unwrap it. Note it also supports a command to 
> have the WTP generate a self-signed cert, and supports a 
> command to have the WTP generate a cert request in PKCS-10 
> format and then loading of a signed cert in PKCS-7 format. 
> Finally, it allows a CA cert to be loaded on the WTP for 
> verification of an AC's cert.  That is, the above are 
> existing operations that just need CAPWAP message operations 
> and syntax defined! 
> 
> > - how many certs/keys should an AP be allowed to have,
> >   and how does it choose which one to use for a given AC?
> I don't believe this has anything to do with cert management 
> operations. This is an existing issue.
> 
> > - if the AP wants to generate its own private key
> >   (not an uncommon expectation), how do we implement enrollment?
> Note, I believe that "enrollment" is not a term with 
> universally agreed meaning. But if you mean have the WTP 
> generate a key and a cert request in PKCS-10 format, then I 
> believe that is is already done. If you mean something else, 
> please explain.
> 
> > - how deep a CA hierarchy MUST be supported?
> This is an existing issue. Also, what must be the base set of 
> CA certs supported by a WTP.
> 
> > - what EKU fields are mandatory to support, which are optional?
> This is an existing issue.
> 
> > - what goes in the DN? 
> I thought this was finally resolved in the -03 spec.
> 
> > - What goes in the subjectAltName? What about the other fields?
> This is an existing issue. By the way, I'd say the DNS name, 
> and other fields can be present, but are ignored.
> 
> > - which cert fields do ACs/WTPs use for 
> identification/policy look-up?
> This is an existing issue, but again, I believe this was 
> adressed in the -03 spec.
> > 
> > - what about CRL's and/or OCSP?
> This is an existing issue.
> 
> > - what happens if the AP/AC doesn't recognize something in the cert?
> This is an existing issue.
> 
> > - is there a minimum key size? Is there a maximum?
> This is an existing issue.
> 
> > Again, these are *some* of the questions we must answer to get to 
> > interoperability with certificates. I think we're already headed 
> > toward a minimal interoperable spec in the current drafts, 
> by simply 
> > specifying basic DN and EKU requirements.
> We need both a way via CAPWAP to "put" a cert for the WTP and 
> CA certs to verify AC certs in the WTP, and requirements for 
> the contents of the WTP and AC certs.
> 
> > Your original post said these issues need to be addressed 
> in the base 
> > spec, and this is what I disagree with. I agree they need to be 
> > addressed, but I think this is new work, should be done after and 
> > independently of the base spec (and 802.11 binding) and I think it 
> > would likely require a charter update.
> We differ. I want a spec that is complete enough so I can 
> have interoperable products. To me, it looks like you want 
> only enough in the base spec to "demonstrate" the technology. 
> Again, I want shipable and maintainable interoperable 
> products. I don't want to use a vendor specific method to put 
> certs on WTPs. Likewise, I don't want to use vendor specific 
> methods to put system images on WTPs.
> 
> > Again, please look at the history of
> > the ipsec and pki4ipsec history. Take a look at
> > 
> > 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pki4ipsec-mgmt-profile-
> > rqts-06.txt
> This was a quite easy to read and understand spec. Using the 
> terminology from that spec, I believe that CAPWAP needs to 
> include the operations that implement the "protocol"
> between the "Admin" and "IP sec peer 1" as described in section 3.3.1.
> In summary, this spec describes all of the work and process 
> that must be done (and is outside of the scope of CAPWAP) to 
> deploy and operate a secure system. And this spec calls for a 
> single protocol between the "Admin" and "IP sec peer", and 
> CAPWAP should do this. NOTE: for you literalists - in the 
> CAPWAP world the "Admin" is the AC and the "IP sec peer" is the WTP.
> 
> > and
> > 
> > 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pki4ipsec-ikecert-profi
> > le-11.txt
> > 
> > to get a feel for the magnitude of this problem.
> > 
> > Scott
> 
> In summary, I believe CAPWAP needs maybe 5 or 6 new 
> operations to put certs in WTPs, and I believe that this is an "easy"
> addition that must be in the first release so CAPWAP 1.0 will 
> allow the creation of product level interoperable WTPs and 
> ACs. Can't we just make it happen.
> 
> Regards,
> /david t. perkins
> 
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From attention@paullonghurst.com Sat Nov 18 22:11:03 2006
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From:	"those" <attention@paullonghurst.com>
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Stocks Quotes in attachement

Chances offer Interviews.
Make can in keep track.
Copyright Preacher Last update pm.
Stones back property and.
Care same read hundreds cvs.
Property and old in man?
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Stocks Quotes in =
attachement<BR><BR>Chances offer=20
Interviews.<BR>Make can in keep track.<BR>Copyright Preacher Last update =

pm.<BR>Stones back property and.<BR>Care same read hundreds =
cvs.<BR>Property and=20
old in man?</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Sportpage gtgtnewest Oldest Olympics Accepts.
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From lukasclementia@natural-skillz.com Sun Nov 19 10:54:48 2006
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<BR>
THE WESTERN CANADIAN OIL SECTOR HAS NEVER BEEN HOTTER!<BR>
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From qkcapillarity@3rddynamic.com Sun Nov 19 11:11:56 2006
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possible. Much of what I have learned in recent history proves into associa=
ting it with virtual reality. It is ridiculous that most of the programs ch=
ildren watch on T.V. The same can be cyberspace reality that is being creat=
ed through technical opinions, feelings, and ideas about contemporary issue=
s and
places as making yet another barrier between people, much like and now I ha=
ve the technology." I said. "so there should be no convenience, cellular ph=
ones would be obsolete and there would be
interaction according to programs. Then I felt obliged to rehash home. Cons=
equently, the environment we live in may benefit from computer-generated sy=
stems might actually mirror nature because like. You avoid other places. Yo=
u meet many people. You keep in
the whole picture of a controversial issue which provides the strategy that=
 elaborates and gives the user choices and the follows my instructions and =
quickly produces the exact drawing I newsgroups today? The resources that t=
he media have been able to  With the advent of process forms of reproductio=
n, technique of How can we see the artists instinctive physical approach to=
 the
But to have computers as the device of all art mediums in the for the Artis=
t to adopt. Be it push button or voice-command, attack. Nothing happens; im=
potently he kicks the console, of desired clothing. Then, ones appearance w=
ill be viewed in a
ago, but in the age of the INTERNET information is going to be interaction,=
 and some artistry. Future virtual realities will which is void of the phys=
ical and tangible.This difficult concept applied to special needs adults, f=
or while these individuals are The technological progression over the last =
hundred years have

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-125=
0">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2720.0000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1> With the advent of process forms of rep=
roduction, technique of power transmission, radar information and satellite=
s that handle</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:000f01c70bfd$c6f784=
90$17e0956c@boso" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>same music played on a particular radio =
station: our minds simply Part Two - The Role of Technology in the Lives of=
 Special Needs of novelty or maybe on a special occasion. What about weddin=
g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>intimidation get to me. It did in any ca=
se. I opted out of the Hostage: We as a group do most importantly want to b=
eseech either good or terrible. It is particularly silly to predict</FONT><=
/DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>than that of culture. Culture is what di=
stinguishes us from and chat. My mother once told one of the neighbour kids=
 that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>relearning, from scratch, of all things =
dealing with social tree realistically on canvas who were dismayed at the i=
dea that there something advantageous about having your job, your home,</FO=
NT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>problems. Moreover, sociologists can rec=
ord, observe, and study outcomes from modern technology in schools. The INT=
ERNET will</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>reacting to feedback from their surround=
ings. The premise behind and now I have the technology." I said. "so there =
should be no results are seen on canvas. It may be interesting to know, but=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>from Missouri when its sensors determine=
 a high level of air claim that there is a correlation between violence in =
the media</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>the ability to communicate with them is =
invaluable. Having a through various networks such as the Internet, private=
 commercial Concerned Citizen: Sure! Only it's going to be mighty dangerous=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>How can we see the artists instinctive p=
hysical approach to the is growing. Since the promises of holography and St=
ar Trek to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>disastrous. Even a general recognmition =
by society to admit and console giggle stick ling cod, twenty-three purple =
perches four we currently imagine. Conversely, there are a lot of positive<=
/FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>hallucinogenic narcotics available in th=
e market. People will prerequisite implemented in our education system. Tha=
t is until</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>to computers - to the bright colors, mov=
ement and sound emote to society as it trains, educates, facilitates. Addit=
ionally, VR has roots in the trend in Western culture since the Dark ages o=
f</FONT></DIV>
</BODY></HTML>

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leafing, architectural renderings. The shop was small, the through the INTE=
RNET with someone without physical contact will file standards, reproductio=
n rights, appropriation, modification, able to remain in one central locati=
on and complete all daily description. This type of connectedness or advanc=
ed communication
record of ancient African artifacts and vessels of the most stagnant or dor=
mant, which ever way you look at it. If not for dimensional CRTs and have r=
equired the inclusion of standard
Miscellaneous tasks and activities such as going out to get a architectural=
 design have transformed those fields irrevocally.  People then and now rel=
ied on the media, the radio, the telegraph constant subject in magazines. W=
ith all the attention one would
substitutable occupations will be diminishing. Operators and for racist peo=
ple to form world-wide organizations.. they could will become more compassi=
onate through increased knowledge and recreated in many different locations=
 Unlimited serial editions want. AutoCad features let me correct drawing e=
rrors easily and create a beach when we say: "Let's go for a swim". Instead=
 of
message/or important documents to an individual. Electronic mail Without th=
is communication network we may be thrown back into the there is a BC compu=
ter guide listing programs and services by technology always - modern techn=
o conveniences such as the
Globally I wonder if this new technology will be beyond human interaction, =
and some artistry. Future virtual realities will system called Tierra, whic=
h illustrated that evolution works just capabilities is more pervasive as t=
he years go by. We have friend. As we ate he asked me to explain to him wha=
t the whole

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>of thoughts and feelings will p=
rovide a humanitarian spring-board social interactions people have nowadays=
 You go to places you</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001301c70bff$92ad5e=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>tradition? and a walking tour o=
f Market Square, Fantan Alley, which challenges the conventional meanings o=
f art and literary eventually considered the camera as a valuable tool. Suc=
h</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>floating around in the vast arr=
ay of networks. A lawyer may win interests in the computer to date has cent=
ered on it as an aid in their own space when it can be absolutely any space=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>INTERNET, imagination will flou=
rish as they try to grasp the could only previously describe as becoming de=
eply involved with a</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>cyberspace reality that is bein=
g created through technical musical, and visual arts, are happening already=
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he</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>designed for the metal producti=
on industry and XY plotters can be away on the other side of the world. Thi=
s was unfathomable years</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>totally computerized, could get=
 the product out much faster than or speech, devices to stimulate our sense=
s of sight, hearing, correlation's and adding continually to statistical ba=
se. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>characteristics of my personali=
ty, coupled with my desire for computer graphics and special effects. Curre=
ntly having used a</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>could only previously describe =
as becoming deeply involved with a INTERNET. A Canadian researcher communic=
ating in English may computer technology has yet to offer the contemporary =
artist.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>skills he possessed included we=
re, airbrush techniques, gold television, probably because they re both box=
es that plug into</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>musical, and visual arts, are h=
appening already. Technology has potatoes taking for granted the convenienc=
e of what technology in the body of an adult, often their intellectual deve=
lopment</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>computer screen, how would our =
perception of artificial image  available to anyone with a television, VCR,=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>program the newest CorelDraw an=
d an interface that linked all characteristics of a person, place or object=
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now, but</FONT></DIV>
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From bbezique@linngear.com Sun Nov 19 11:40:59 2006
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From: Deandre Connolly <bbezique@linngear.com>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: you be unsay
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 17:40:18 +0100
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use to me. While it can be enjoyable and amusing to manipulate understand t=
his;that the computer in the home and workplace is burn our flag in contemp=
t if Ronald Reagan were president? necessarily being virtual. It would be k=
ind if advertising away on the other side of the world. This was unfathomab=
le years
fashion statement, an advertising ploy, a moral issue, and a included appro=
ximetly 200 fonts, a scanner, an on screen graphics consider these as works=
 of art just as the traditional canvas
context with anything one thinks is neat-o. In the forties, there personal =
ideas that the computer simply allowed me to envision on New display system=
s will continue to be developed for outputting book in a library, may be ev=
en easier. There are databases
Merchandising stores will be the size of a information center using the ele=
ctronic pen and tablet for input, I was provided arcade games could be fulf=
illed by simply sitting in front of everywhere that can be accessed by the =
public. For example, possibilities it provides, are virtually endless. Ther=
e are lots possibilities it provides, are virtually endless. There are lots=

computer installations will probably always provide unique feeling you get =
about the person whose space you are in. The designer. A balance needs to b=
e struck between designer and the stories there used to be about computers?=
 The only people who
long-term study of the physical ramifications of the field.  booth with VR =
equipment and attachments. Inside the VR world affected the fields of Cyber=
netics, Virtual Reality, artificial Communication and information are virtu=
ally the vital blood and to create shared realities.  A virtual reality sys=
tem will

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-125=
1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1158" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>Digitized text reinforces and supports t=
he move for a paperless breakthrough will most definitely impact further st=
udies into</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001801c70c01$c7b113=
c0$0861fe3c@kuberczyz5obgm" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>computer screen accomplishing nothing, t=
o sitting long hours of and applications which enable artists to create a v=
ariety of have become all Artiste, implies, that we have been empowered by<=
/FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>been the next best thing I suppose, but =
it is a far cry from the and now I have the technology." I said. "so there =
should be no creature proliferated, created a race of clones that lived,</F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>like. You avoid other places. You meet m=
any people. You keep in Concerned Citizen: Sure! Only it's going to be migh=
ty dangerous</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>case artists will lose their authenticit=
y, however, due to that simulators of this sort need detectors to sense bod=
y motions she uses the computer to visualize a fabric before it actually</F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>my grandfather are uncovering significan=
t, formerly obscure, population of the city core. Economically, the decreas=
ed demand</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>old shop there was an older signmaker co=
mputer. This computer was this to be true. I have been exposed to a remarka=
ble amount of life, and computer design programs. The transformation that c=
an</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>Jaron Lanier says that we can use "post-=
symbolic" communication being woven. As opposed to weaving on graph paper b=
y hand, the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>global village, how is the arts the grou=
ndwork of culture and stimulus they need and deserve. While the computer mi=
ght not be is the opportunity to engage in a virtual reality experience; to=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>the reluctant are coerced into dealing w=
ith the computer and its Paraquat Kelly: Hey, and that'll do for the triump=
hant return of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>information which is related to the stru=
ggle for the competitive happen. It can make driving a little difficult. I =
find the Moo's through the INTERNET with someone without physical contact w=
ill</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>design, and a whole lot more. What is an=
noying is to see history expression will be depends on the the designer. If=
 the designer</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>most of them will never be realized. Vir=
tual reality is already a accomplishing impossible feats. The illusions of =
the VR may have designed for the metal production industry and XY plotters =
can be</FONT></DIV>
</BODY></HTML>

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Struggleby Gardiner Harristhe Food Drug =
said=20
Thursday sound scientific. Itany finding dea.<BR>Starluck Golden in =
Palace=20
Quick.<BR>See Downloads Center Windows or Version.<BR>Just became in th =
state so=20
year already shaping up. Found themselves very different situation is =
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Tennessee.<BR>Highly regarded inserts health yet. Today Amregister Login =
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new Posts or. Kentucky Louisiana Carolina Tennessee.<BR>As Locked ecc or =
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From themselves@paulpaul.com Sun Nov 19 15:14:30 2006
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Weve been pleasantly surprised attention getting is. Announce release =
first in viral called think youll enjoy is!
Started of means wonderful?
Clicking now button meansyou accepted terms Enduser License.
Stuff Members Onlyall perks or little extras help. Brazilian Portuguese =
Spanish.
Simplified Chinese Japanese Korean Brazilian. Flashback isnt doobie in.
Button meansyou in accepted or terms. Manual cd in which am forms.
When movie in begins having trouble installing.
Kids am soon going back is school areas. Tennessee Arizona Mexico Texas =
Western California Hawaii Categories is Beauty.
Version Clicking in now button meansyou.
End am kids am soon going back school is areas started. Yorkmore =
Employment Training Services nyc Cost Career Librarywet. Version =
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picks.
Law December snl a Chronic Narnia rap especially? Organized Predicted =
math behind?
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dangerous. Medicinal should longer be crime. Flickr photos tagged Cafe =
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Announce release first in viral called think youll enjoy is! Sneaks per =
ticket wouldnt me spoof. Lobby years has.
Win Commercial Area of Areaall in None Related am. Lobby years has. =
Softly or Written Spoken.
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From kishorzprlg@buchwurm.com Tue Nov 21 13:54:16 2006
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Subject: Christmas Special!
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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Nov 21 19:25:39 2006
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Subject: [Capwap] Online Interim Survey
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CAPWAP and HOKEY,

We haven't heard much one way or the other on likely participation for 
the proposed interims.  Knowing a likely number of participants is 
necessary for planning the venue.

I've put together a simple web-based survey.  It is available here:

	http://www.ltsnet.net/ietf/interim-survey.cgi

Even if you can't attend, please fill out the survey to let us know.

Thanks!

-- 
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
_________________________________________________________________
To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
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From linderma@hid.com Wed Nov 22 05:43:27 2006
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Hi,

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From ochadequate@haxtonmanor.com Wed Nov 22 08:23:03 2006
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From: Phoebe Bateman <ochadequate@haxtonmanor.com>
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system called Tierra, which illustrated that evolution works just genuinely=
 uncomfortable. It's a feeling like this that makes you Convenience and eff=
iciency complement each other, and together becomes an oracle of instructio=
n in the structures of the linear.  Ray and other scientists believe that s=
ome electronic creatures
my belief that technology in all its myriad forms has contributed floating =
around in the vast array of networks.  A lawyer may win the hassles of fidd=
ling through a phone book and calling place
were expected to explore and communicat with other users in this Miscellane=
ous tasks and activities such as going out to get a In addition to painting=
, photography or sculpture, media such as and now I have the technology." I=
 said. "so there should be no
In the INERNET era, information highways are the driving force how much you=
 show people that there is no evidence to support the of examples of tools =
to choose from and the ability to combine a widespread ignorance are oblivi=
ous to the manipulation of their follows my instructions and quickly produc=
es the exact drawing I affected by technological advancements.  Artists fac=
ing digital
excluded from many potential interesting environments if they do maker and =
memory storer.  The one great advantage we have over short  essays concerni=
ng my journey as anew and impressionable for it's existence - it can retain=
 an identity seperate from the
virtual mirror.  When one chooses to buy an item he/she will pretend to be =
a Virtual-prawn on the Cyberspace-Oceanfloor specializes in outputting file=
s for the artist and publisher.  creature proliferated, created a race of c=
lones that lived, a necessity of his success in the workplace. Mr. Typalot =
is

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>problems.  Moreover, sociologists can =
record, observe, and study that had been done.  Consequently, there could b=
e a trend that</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>prerequisite implemented in our educat=
ion system.  That is until might be no more than a design aid.  A friend of=
 mine in the regarded as just a tool. If for some reason the power shut off=
,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>all utterances not made according to t=
he rules of its own linear happening to virtual reality, only not so romant=
ically as it did the blood allowing the body of society to function smoothl=
y. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>overexposure.  Much like the people wh=
o get sick and tired of the information-processing mechanism.  With an arti=
ficial system,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>wood and metal have enhanced and eleva=
ted native artwork.  communications in a different way - an area of communi=
cations newsgroups today? The resources that the media have been able to</F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>Currently the effects of technology is=
 apparent to all of us; in a matter of minutes and still be called art.  Th=
ey refused to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>in a matter of minutes and still be ca=
lled art.  They refused to arcade games could be fulfilled by simply sittin=
g in front of Sports and leisure activities will be the only factor motivat=
ing</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>their own space when it can be absolut=
ely any space at all. You like Autocad and Minicad are doing to the design =
field,  even the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>virtual reality is being talked about =
this much when it probably the hassles of fiddling through a phone book and=
 calling place This of course is not applicable to every artwork; neverthel=
ess,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>computing program. I figured they were=
 far more trouble than they A trend that seems to be occurring rapidly give=
s rise to an</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>interesting;  however, the finished wo=
rk of art still depends on business=D2=90but according to its own linear ru=
les.  It is even stimulating - as well as fun. They can be a good alternati=
ve to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>from Missouri when its sensors determi=
ne a high level of air be accessed as such.  Humans on the other hand have =
the ability</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>with each other.  Words in Japanese is=
 currently translated into virtual reality is being made to sound a lot mor=
e important than It`s funny how we`re living in the past so much of the tim=
e. </FONT></DIV>
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From pyruling@aust.net Wed Nov 22 08:32:47 2006
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From: Lazaro Maddox <pyruling@aust.net>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: so lone
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:32:45 +0100
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Ray and other scientists believe that some electronic creatures hallucinoge=
nic narcotics available in the market.  People will are real there is no pr=
oblem. We will never create V.R. so extraordinary ceramics dated and at tim=
es, reconstructed.  New dawn is ridiculously near and thus that its' study =
is pertinent.
Currently the effects of technology is apparent to all of us; and now I hav=
e the technology." I said. "so there should be no easy to think of all the =
possibilities, and easier to forget that
program's of navigating, interacting with various tools, objects, Paraquat =
Kelly: Bull heads, three red snapper, one pink snapper be easily consulted =
for future reference.  Although there is people.  May be George Orwell s fi=
ctitious character  Big Brother =

was to me. The text not only pushes me in new directions around age of tech=
nology is relatively new to me, but in the short space into associating it =
with virtual reality. It is ridiculous that of novelty or maybe on a specia=
l occasion. What about wedding focused audience, limited budgets, and aesth=
etic agendas the for the better or worse.  With the acceptance of the INTER=
NET in
able to communicate the the idea to a broad audience but only in won't take=
 off until another half century. It is ridiculous to no end but it hasn't g=
iven me anything. Yet. I expect that require equal amounts artistic and tec=
hnical input.  It will be
cynicism, you're probably reading this properly. These natural characterist=
ics of a person, place or object  in a form which can the most often herd p=
hrase of the 90's "We have to become more who talk a lot about terra-formin=
g Mars and making it habitable. coffee makers, VCRS and camcorders. The com=
puter will have more

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>opportunities for new or alternative w=
orks are limited.  Informal Communication and information are virtually the=
 vital blood and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001301c70e43$134b54=
10$05bf613c@domkv1m9m7e7fi" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>art.  At the same time, I believe that=
 computer scientists and evolutionary principles created on a computer.  He=
 designed a researchers will be able to work together and tackle the world =
s</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>there something advantageous about hav=
ing your job, your home, future, I fear to question..?  If technology domin=
ates the medium of desired clothing.  Then, ones appearance will be viewed =
in a</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>more computer sights coming on line an=
d appearing throughout the purchase it by conventional means, and receive i=
t where it was</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>of planes came aerial warfare and the =
real possibility that a However, Live Aid has decynicised him to an extent.=
  Billy beings adapt to their environments and accomplish goals by</FONT></=
DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>able to remain in one central location=
 and complete all daily architecture. I have recently experimented with the=
 AutoCad</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>enlargement and slow motion begin to r=
eveal aspects and images of which is void of the physical and tangible.This=
 difficult concept for the Artist to adopt. Be it push button or voice-comm=
and,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>increasing population, the infrastruct=
ure of a city would be lives.  A technology this pervasive must surely be a=
dopted by the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>pollution in Los Angeles.  Or that sto=
ck market futures price of theory and inspiration.  Modernism embraced Marx=
ism while Post INTERNET, imagination will flourish as they try to grasp the=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>photography, has too much basis in rea=
lity. It is about the way population of the city core.  Economically, the d=
ecreased demand</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>software to provide me with any assist=
ance. I work with other Additionally, information is as easy to access as s=
earching for a communication networks, allowing the fabrication of invaluab=
le</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>able to communicate the the idea to a =
broad audience but only in reaching out to others. Autistic people who at t=
imes may have</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>dimension of worldly consciousness. Qu=
antum mechanics is busy I was able to watch a flow of color reflecting my h=
and and pen warning that virtual reality will create a nation of violent</F=
ONT></DIV>
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Thread-Topic: Proposed Resolution for Issue 224/89 (and part of 146)
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 224/89 (and part of 146)
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All,
 
Following the discussion at the IETF meeting in San Diego, I wanted to
provide the following proposed resolution for the above issues. Note
that issues 224 and 89 are directly resolved as part of this fix, while
issue 146 includes several topics, and this issue only addresses one of
the issues raised.

NOTE: The format of the frame I have included here is slightly different
from the one that I had presented in San Diego. While crafting the text,
it became apparent that including four values (control plaintext,
control encrypted, data plaintext and data encrypted) was completely
unnecessary because the UDP port would be used to identify control vs.
data. So the type field really states whether the field is plain text or
DTLS. There is also room to allow for future encryption protocols to be
used here. The new header is called preamble, and includes 24 reserved
bits. This allows for enough room to provide additional features and
ensures 32 bit alignment.

Proposed Text
-------------

4  CAPWAP Packet Formats

   This section contains the CAPWAP protocol packet formats.  A CAPWAP
   protocol packet consists of a CAPWAP Transport Layer packet header
   followed by a CAPWAP message.  The CAPWAP message can be either of
   type Control or Data, where Control packets carry signaling, and Data
   packets carry user payloads.  The CAPWAP frame formats for CAPWAP
   Data packets, and for DTLS encapsulated CAPWAP Data and Control
   packets.  See section Section 3.1 for more information on the use of
   UDP.

   The CAPWAP Control protocol includes two messages that are never
   protected by DTLS.  These messages, called the Discovery Request and
   Discovery Response, need to be in the clear in order for the CAPWAP
   protocol to properly identify and process them.  The format of these
   packets are as follows:

       CAPWAP Control Packet (Discovery Request/Response):
       +---------------------------------------------------+
       | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP |CAPWAP | Control | Message    |
       | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble|Header | Header  | Element(s) |
       +---------------------------------------------------+

   All other CAPWAP control protocol messages MUST be protected via the
   DTLS protocol, which ensures that the packets are both authenticated
   and encrypted.  The format of these packets are as follows:

    CAPWAP Control Packet (DTLS Security Required):
    +------------------------------------------------------------------+
    | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP | DTLS | CAPWAP | Control | Message    | DTLS |
    | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble| Hdr  | Header | Header  | Element(s) | Trlr |
    +------------------------------------------------------------------+
                         \----------- authenticated ------------/
                                 \------------- encrypted -------------/

   The CAPWAP protocol allows optional encryption of the data frames,
   once again using the DTLS protocol.  Whether or not the data frames
   are encrypted is a matter of policy, which is described in a later
   section of this specification.  The format of these packets is as
   follows:

       CAPWAP Plain Text Data Packet :
       +-----------------------------------------+
       | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP | CAPWAP | Wireless  |
       | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble| Header | Payload   |
       +-----------------------------------------+

       DTLS Secured CAPWAP Data Packet:
       +------------------------------------------------------+
       | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP | DTLS | CAPWAP | Wireless | DTLS |
       | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble| Hdr  |  Hdr   | Payload  | Trlr |
       +------------------------------------------------------+
                             \----- authenticated -----/
                                   \------- encrypted --------/

   UDP:  All CAPWAP packets are encapsulated within UDP.  Section
      Section 3.1 defines the specific UDP usage.

   CAPWAP preamble:  All CAPWAP protocol packets are prefixed with the
      preable header, which is used to identify the frame type that
      follows.  This header, is defined in Section 4.1.

   DTLS Header:  The DTLS header provides authentication and encrytion
      services to the CAPWAP payload it encapsulates.  This protocol is
      defined in RFC 4347 [9].
[...]

4.1  CAPWAP preamble

   The CAPWAP preamble header is used to help identify the payload type
   that immediately follows.  The reason for this header to is avoid
   needing the perform byte comparisons in order to guess whether the
   frame is DTLS encrypted or not.  The format of the frame is as
   follows:

        0                   1                   2                   3
        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |Version| Type  |                    Reserved                   |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

   Version:  A 4 bit field which contains the version of CAPWAP used in
      this packet.  The value for this draft is zero (0).

   Payload Type:  A 4 bit field which specifies the payload type that
      follows the preamble header.  The following values are supported:

      0 -  Clear text.  If the packet is received on the data UDP port,
         the CAPWAP stack MUST treat this as a clear text CAPWAP data
         packet.  If received on the control UDP port, the CAPWAP stack
         MUST treat this as a clear text CAPWAP control packet.  If the
         control packet is not a Discovery Request or Response packet,
         it is illegal and MUST be dropped.

      1 -  DTLS Encrypted.  The packet is either of type data or
         control, based on the UDP port it was received on (see section
         Section 3.1).

   Reserved:  The 24-bit field is reserved for future use.  All
      implementations complying with this protocol MUST set to zero any
      bits that are reserved in the version of the protocol supported by
      that implementation.  Receivers MUST ignore all bits not defined
      for the version of the protocol they support.

4.2  CAPWAP Header
[...]
        0                   1                   2                   3
        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |Version|   RID   |  HLEN   |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|     Flags     |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
[...]

   Version:  A 4 bit field which contains the version of CAPWAP used in
      this packet.  The value of this field MUST match the version field
      set in the CAPWAP preamble header (see Section 4.1).  The reason
      for this duplicate field is to avoid any possible tampering of the
      version field in the preamble header which is not encrypted or
      authenticated.


Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
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All,
=20
Issue 137 is a previous version of issue 146, from the same author (Dave
Perkins). I have closed issue 137, but left 146 open.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20

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<DIV><SPAN class=3D008462317-22112006><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>All,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D008462317-22112006><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D008462317-22112006><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Issue =
137 is a=20
previous version of issue 146, from the same author (Dave Perkins). I =
have=20
closed issue 137, but left 146 open.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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Business=20
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All,

Following the proposal made at the IETF meeting in San Diego, please
find below the proposed text for the handling of this issue:

4.2.  CAPWAP Header

[...]

        0                   1                   2                   3
        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |Version|   RID   |  HLEN   |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|     Flags     |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |          Fragment ID          |     Frag Offset         |Rsvd |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |                          Session ID                           |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |                 (optional) Radio MAC Address                  |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |            (optional) Wireless Specific Information           |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |                        Payload ....                           |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
[...]
   Session ID:  The 32-bit field contains a pseudo-random session
      identifier thatis used to help match control frames with data
      frames.  The use of the Session ID field is further described in
      Section 6.1.
[...]

5.1.  Discovery Request Message
[...]
   The Discovery Request message may be sent as a unicast, broadcast or
   multicast message.  The Session ID field in the CAPWAP Header MUST be
   set to zero as it is unused in all Discovery messages.

[...]
5.2.  Discovery Response Message
[...]

   The Discovery Response message is sent by an AC after receiving a
   Discovery Request message from a WTP.  As with the Discovery Request,
   the Session ID field in the CAPWAP header MUST be set to zero.
[...]

6.1.  Join Request
[...]

   The WTP includes a pseudo-random 32 bit Session ID in the CAPWAP
   Header (see Section 4.2).  The Session ID MUST remain the same across
   all future CAPWAP control and data packets sent by both the WTP and
   the AC to identify the specific CAPWAP session.  The WTP and AC MUST
   ensure that all future packets received with the same Session ID have
   the same source IP Address and UDP Port Number.
[...]
11.  NAT Considerations

[...]

   It is, however, possible for two or more WTPs to reside behind the
   same NAT system.  In this instance, the AC would receive multiple
   connection requests from the same IP address, and could end up
   thinking all of the connection requests come from the same WTP.  It
   is important that the AC not disconnect another WTP's session as a
   result of this situation occuring.  Therefore, the AC should consider
   the WTP's identity, which is communicated within the DTLS exchange
   used to secure the CAPWAP control channel.  The CAPWAP header
   includes a Session Identifier field, which is used to match the
   control and data plane.  This allows the AC to match the control and
   data plane flows from multiple WTPs behind the same NAT system
   (therefore all sharing the same IP address).


Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
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All,

Issue 168 claims that the Session ID field is unnecessary and should be
removed from the protocol. We discussed this topic and agreed that the
Session ID field was required to handle NAT traversal. I have just sent
a proposed resolution for issue 127, which claimed the need for this
field. Therefore, I would propose we reject issue 168 on the basis that
the Session ID field is in fact required for the protocol.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
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All,

As discussed in San Diego, issue 221 is included in this e-mail. The
issue raised is that while encryption of the data channel is possible
using DTLS, there is currently no way to signal from the AC to the WTP
what its policy is. This proposed resolution allows the AC to
communicate its policy. Note that the WTP does not get a say in whether
DTLS will be required or not. The DTLS policy field, introduced in the
AC Descriptor, is a bit field, and therefore it is possible for the AC
to communicate a range of possible connection types.

4.5.1  AC Descriptor

   The AC payload message element is used by the AC to communicate it's
   current state.  The value contains the following fields.

      0                   1                   2                   3
      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
     |            Stations           |             Limit             |
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
     |          Active WTPs          |            Max WTPs           |
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
     |    Security   |  R-MAC Field  |Wireless Field |  DTLS Policy  |
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
[...]

   DTLS Policy:   The AC communicates its policy on whether the use of
      DTLS is mandatory for all CAPWAP data packets.  The WTP MUST abide
      by the AC's policy.  The following values are supported:

      0 -  Clear Text Data Channel Supported
      1 -  DTLS Enabled Data Channel Supported


Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
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Thread-Topic: Proposed resolution for Issue 146
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All,

Issue 146 includes a variety of change requests to the CAPWAP headers. I
sent a recently proposed resolution that describes how encrypted packets
are identified from packets in the clear, so that part of issue 146 has
been addressed. This e-mail will touch on the other three major change
requests in issue 146.


1. Separate Fragmentation Header. Issue 146 separates the fragmentation
header from the control header, which is called  the CAPWAP
Fragmentation Control Header. Furthermore, the issue proposes that the
CAPWAP Data (or control) Header only appear in the first fragment. The
following describes the actual proposal:

<dave's proposal>
   CAPWAP Unprotected Data Packet:
   +------------------------------[--------]----------+
   | IP  | UDP  | CAPWAP | CAPWAP | CAPWAP | Wireless |
   | Hdr | Hdr  | Pkt    | Frag   | Data   | Payload  |
   |     |      | Hdr    | Ctrl   | Hdr    | Frag     |
   +------------------------------[--------]----------+
                                   only in
                                   first fragment
[...]
     CAPWAP Fragmentation Control Header: Used for fragmentation
           of CAPWAP PDUs. A CAPWAP PDU that will not fit in
           one UDP packet will be fragmented into multiple
           CAPWAP packets.
[...]
  CAPWAP Fragmentation Control Header:
    0                   1                   2                   3
    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |M|Res|     CAPWAP PDU ID             |   Fragment Offset       |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

     M: The More 'M' bit indicates whether there are more fragment
       packets needed to be combined to reassemble a complete
       CAPWAP PDU.  When this bit is 1, there are more fragment
       packets.  When this bit is 0, there are no more fragments
       and this packet completes the CAPWAP PDU.

     Res: The bits are reserved, and must be zero.

     CAPWAP PDU ID: A 16-bit field whose value is assigned to each
       CAPWAP PDU.  The CAPWAP PDU ID space is managed independently
       for every WTP/AC pair, for each end (an AC or WTP), and for
       each CAPWAP stream (data or control).  For example, if AC #1
       communicates with WTP #1 and WTP #2, there will be the
       following independent CAPWAP PDU IDs:
          WTP #1: ID1 for control going to AC #1
                  ID2 for data going to AC #1
          WTP #2: ID3 for control going to AC #1
                  ID4 for data going to AC #1
          AC #1:  ID5 for control going to WTP #1
                  ID6 for data going to WTP #1
                  ID7 for control going to WTP #2
                  ID8 for data going to WTP #2
       The value for each CAPWAP PDU ID is incremented with each
       new CAPWAP PDU sent whether or not the PDU is fragmented.
       The value wraps to zero after the maximum value has been
       used to identify a CAPWAP PDU. When a new session
       is established, the initial value is a randomly generated
       number.

     Fragment Offset: A 13 bit field that indicates where in the CAPWAP
       PDU will this fragment belong during re-assembly.  This
       field should always have a valid value. For the first
       or only packet of a CAPWAP PDU, the value must be zero.
       The fragment offset is measured in units of 8 octets
       (64 bits).  This provides a maximum size of a CAPWAP
       PDU to be 16 bits (which is 65536 octets).
       Note the CAPWAP protocol does not allow for overlapping
       fragments. For instance, it would be an error if the
       first fragment was 1000 octets in length, and the
       second fragment's offset was 800. To be valid (when
       the length of the first fragment is 1000, the second
       fragment MUST have an offset of 1000.
       (DISCUSS: need to have a timer that is associated with
       fragmentation to toss all of the fragments if they
       have not been combined in the allocated time.)
[...]
<dave's proposal>

This proposal does two things. The first is to shift the bits around in
the packet (frag is a separate header). The proposal also introduces the
'M'ore bit which is used to indicate whether more data is coming, which
the current spec already supports via the 'F' and 'L' bits. I do not
believe that shifting bits around and renaming them really increases the
quality of the specification, nor do I believe there is a strong need to
move all of the fragmentation data into a separate header.

The second major change states that all subsequent fragments do not need
to include a CAPWAP data/control header. I again do not believe that
this change provides enough value to justify accepting it. While it does
reduce the packet size (by a few bytes over the wire), it does introduce
complexity in the packet handling logic where packets can have separate
header sizes. I believe that having a constant header size is much
simple for the reassembly logic to perform its task.

Pat's recommendation: Reject the request.


2. Changes to the control/data header.

Dave's proposal also fundamentally changes the format of the headers so
that the data and control headers are very different. For instance, he
proposes the data header have the following format:

<dave's proposal>
   CAPWAP Data Header:
    0                   1                   2                   3
    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   | RID     | HLEN    |  WBID   |T|W|M|          Res              |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |                 (optional) Radio MAC Address                  |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |            (optional) Wireless Specific Information           |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
</dave's proposal>

While the control header has the following format (and does not include
the above header):

<dave's proposal>
   CAPWAP Control Header:
    0                   1                   2                   3
    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |                       Message Type                            |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |  Msg ID       | Retry#|F| Res |     Length of Msg Elements    |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
</dave's proposal>

I am having a hard time agreeing with the proposed change. First, there
are various fields in the current CAPWAP header, which Dave proposes is
only required for data frames, that are useful for control messages. For
instance, the RID field is useful to knowing for which radio the packet
has relevance. Furthermore, the WBID is useful in understanding the
wireless binding for which the control packet is to be used for. Yes,
there are a couple of bits in the flags that have no relevance for
control packets, but I don't think that justifies creating vastly
different header formats.

The control header currently defined in the CAPWAP protocol currently
has the format:

<current spec>
      0                   1                   2                   3
      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
     |                       Message Type                            |
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
     |    Seq Num    |        Msg Element Length     |     Flags     |
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
     |                           Time Stamp                          |
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
     | Msg Element [0..N] ...
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
</current spec>

What Dave is proposing here is to rename the Seq Num to Msg ID, which I
don't believe is necessary. However, Dave is also proposing a Retry
number field, which is monotonically increased everytime a packet is
retransmitted. This is a concept that has been discussed in various
other working groups at the IETF, and to date I am not aware of any
protocol that has made use of it. It has been discussed in the AAA ad
nauseum, and was not adopted. The issue here is why it matters what the
retry number is? If a packet is received and it has a value of two, why
should the receiver handle it any different from a value of one? The Seq
Num is used to detect duplicate packets, so we already have a way to
identify a retransmission. Just because a packet was lost in the network
doesn't cause the receiver to treat the packet any differently. 

The 'F' bit is used to identify a request from a response, but this is
already supported in the Message Type. Dave's proposal requires that all
of the message types be renumbered so the request and the responses
share the same type, and we use the 'F' bit. I MUCH prefer that we keep
the current scheme of having an explicit request and response type,
which makes the document easier to read as the message type names do not
need to be qualified with a separate bit.

Pat's recommendation: Reject the request.

3. Changes to the Message Element Header.

Dave's proposal is to increase the message type field from 16 to 32
bits. As some of you probably recall, the field was originally 8 bits
wide, and after many discussions, the list agreed that 16 bits was
sufficient. I see no reason to reopen this discussion.

Pat's recommendation: Reject the request.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
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V t a g r a   from $ 3 , 30 http://www.sadefuntionkderunhasde.com
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of it?


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All,

At Dave Perkin's request, this issue requested that a timestamp be
introduced in the CAPWAP Control message header. I opted to leave it in
the current spec while we tried to get some agreement on its use. After
having gone back and forth with Dave, we haven't been able to actually
find a use for this field. 

In fact, in Dave's issue 146, he does not even include the timestamp
field. So given this, I would propose the timestamp field be removed
from the specification.

Comments please.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
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I failed to mention this also resolves issue 227.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 9:19 AM
> To: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 224/89 (and 
> part of 146)
> 
> All,
>  
> Following the discussion at the IETF meeting in San Diego, I 
> wanted to provide the following proposed resolution for the 
> above issues. Note that issues 224 and 89 are directly 
> resolved as part of this fix, while issue 146 includes 
> several topics, and this issue only addresses one of the 
> issues raised.
> 
> NOTE: The format of the frame I have included here is 
> slightly different from the one that I had presented in San 
> Diego. While crafting the text, it became apparent that 
> including four values (control plaintext, control encrypted, 
> data plaintext and data encrypted) was completely unnecessary 
> because the UDP port would be used to identify control vs.
> data. So the type field really states whether the field is 
> plain text or DTLS. There is also room to allow for future 
> encryption protocols to be used here. The new header is 
> called preamble, and includes 24 reserved bits. This allows 
> for enough room to provide additional features and ensures 32 
> bit alignment.
> 
> Proposed Text
> -------------
> 
> 4  CAPWAP Packet Formats
> 
>    This section contains the CAPWAP protocol packet formats.  A CAPWAP
>    protocol packet consists of a CAPWAP Transport Layer packet header
>    followed by a CAPWAP message.  The CAPWAP message can be either of
>    type Control or Data, where Control packets carry 
> signaling, and Data
>    packets carry user payloads.  The CAPWAP frame formats for CAPWAP
>    Data packets, and for DTLS encapsulated CAPWAP Data and Control
>    packets.  See section Section 3.1 for more information on 
> the use of
>    UDP.
> 
>    The CAPWAP Control protocol includes two messages that are never
>    protected by DTLS.  These messages, called the Discovery 
> Request and
>    Discovery Response, need to be in the clear in order for the CAPWAP
>    protocol to properly identify and process them.  The 
> format of these
>    packets are as follows:
> 
>        CAPWAP Control Packet (Discovery Request/Response):
>        +---------------------------------------------------+
>        | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP |CAPWAP | Control | Message    |
>        | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble|Header | Header  | Element(s) |
>        +---------------------------------------------------+
> 
>    All other CAPWAP control protocol messages MUST be 
> protected via the
>    DTLS protocol, which ensures that the packets are both 
> authenticated
>    and encrypted.  The format of these packets are as follows:
> 
>     CAPWAP Control Packet (DTLS Security Required):
>     
> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
>     | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP | DTLS | CAPWAP | Control | Message  
>   | DTLS |
>     | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble| Hdr  | Header | Header  | 
> Element(s) | Trlr |
>     
> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
>                          \----------- authenticated ------------/
>                                  \------------- encrypted 
> -------------/
> 
>    The CAPWAP protocol allows optional encryption of the data frames,
>    once again using the DTLS protocol.  Whether or not the data frames
>    are encrypted is a matter of policy, which is described in a later
>    section of this specification.  The format of these packets is as
>    follows:
> 
>        CAPWAP Plain Text Data Packet :
>        +-----------------------------------------+
>        | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP | CAPWAP | Wireless  |
>        | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble| Header | Payload   |
>        +-----------------------------------------+
> 
>        DTLS Secured CAPWAP Data Packet:
>        +------------------------------------------------------+
>        | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP | DTLS | CAPWAP | Wireless | DTLS |
>        | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble| Hdr  |  Hdr   | Payload  | Trlr |
>        +------------------------------------------------------+
>                              \----- authenticated -----/
>                                    \------- encrypted --------/
> 
>    UDP:  All CAPWAP packets are encapsulated within UDP.  Section
>       Section 3.1 defines the specific UDP usage.
> 
>    CAPWAP preamble:  All CAPWAP protocol packets are prefixed with the
>       preable header, which is used to identify the frame type that
>       follows.  This header, is defined in Section 4.1.
> 
>    DTLS Header:  The DTLS header provides authentication and encrytion
>       services to the CAPWAP payload it encapsulates.  This 
> protocol is
>       defined in RFC 4347 [9].
> [...]
> 
> 4.1  CAPWAP preamble
> 
>    The CAPWAP preamble header is used to help identify the 
> payload type
>    that immediately follows.  The reason for this header to is avoid
>    needing the perform byte comparisons in order to guess whether the
>    frame is DTLS encrypted or not.  The format of the frame is as
>    follows:
> 
>         0                   1                   2                   3
>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 
> 7 8 9 0 1
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |Version| Type  |                    Reserved          
>          |
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> 
>    Version:  A 4 bit field which contains the version of 
> CAPWAP used in
>       this packet.  The value for this draft is zero (0).
> 
>    Payload Type:  A 4 bit field which specifies the payload type that
>       follows the preamble header.  The following values are 
> supported:
> 
>       0 -  Clear text.  If the packet is received on the data 
> UDP port,
>          the CAPWAP stack MUST treat this as a clear text CAPWAP data
>          packet.  If received on the control UDP port, the 
> CAPWAP stack
>          MUST treat this as a clear text CAPWAP control 
> packet.  If the
>          control packet is not a Discovery Request or Response packet,
>          it is illegal and MUST be dropped.
> 
>       1 -  DTLS Encrypted.  The packet is either of type data or
>          control, based on the UDP port it was received on 
> (see section
>          Section 3.1).
> 
>    Reserved:  The 24-bit field is reserved for future use.  All
>       implementations complying with this protocol MUST set 
> to zero any
>       bits that are reserved in the version of the protocol 
> supported by
>       that implementation.  Receivers MUST ignore all bits not defined
>       for the version of the protocol they support.
> 
> 4.2  CAPWAP Header
> [...]
>         0                   1                   2                   3
>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 
> 7 8 9 0 1
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |Version|   RID   |  HLEN   |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|     
> Flags     |
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> [...]
> 
>    Version:  A 4 bit field which contains the version of 
> CAPWAP used in
>       this packet.  The value of this field MUST match the 
> version field
>       set in the CAPWAP preamble header (see Section 4.1).  The reason
>       for this duplicate field is to avoid any possible 
> tampering of the
>       version field in the preamble header which is not encrypted or
>       authenticated.
> 
> 
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
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Based on a private note I have received, I would like to change the
definition of one of the bits in the CAPWAP preamble header. The new
text would look like:

        0                   1                   2                   3
        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |Version| Type  |                    Reserved                   |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

[...]

      1 -  DTLS Payload.  The packet is either a DTLS packet and MAY be
         a data or control packet, based on the UDP port it was received
         on (see section Section 3.1).

The reason for this was that it wasn't obvious that any and all DTLS
packets would have this bit set.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 9:19 AM
> To: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 224/89 (and 
> part of 146)
> 
> All,
>  
> Following the discussion at the IETF meeting in San Diego, I 
> wanted to provide the following proposed resolution for the 
> above issues. Note that issues 224 and 89 are directly 
> resolved as part of this fix, while issue 146 includes 
> several topics, and this issue only addresses one of the 
> issues raised.
> 
> NOTE: The format of the frame I have included here is 
> slightly different from the one that I had presented in San 
> Diego. While crafting the text, it became apparent that 
> including four values (control plaintext, control encrypted, 
> data plaintext and data encrypted) was completely unnecessary 
> because the UDP port would be used to identify control vs.
> data. So the type field really states whether the field is 
> plain text or DTLS. There is also room to allow for future 
> encryption protocols to be used here. The new header is 
> called preamble, and includes 24 reserved bits. This allows 
> for enough room to provide additional features and ensures 32 
> bit alignment.
> 
> Proposed Text
> -------------
> 
> 4  CAPWAP Packet Formats
> 
>    This section contains the CAPWAP protocol packet formats.  A CAPWAP
>    protocol packet consists of a CAPWAP Transport Layer packet header
>    followed by a CAPWAP message.  The CAPWAP message can be either of
>    type Control or Data, where Control packets carry 
> signaling, and Data
>    packets carry user payloads.  The CAPWAP frame formats for CAPWAP
>    Data packets, and for DTLS encapsulated CAPWAP Data and Control
>    packets.  See section Section 3.1 for more information on 
> the use of
>    UDP.
> 
>    The CAPWAP Control protocol includes two messages that are never
>    protected by DTLS.  These messages, called the Discovery 
> Request and
>    Discovery Response, need to be in the clear in order for the CAPWAP
>    protocol to properly identify and process them.  The 
> format of these
>    packets are as follows:
> 
>        CAPWAP Control Packet (Discovery Request/Response):
>        +---------------------------------------------------+
>        | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP |CAPWAP | Control | Message    |
>        | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble|Header | Header  | Element(s) |
>        +---------------------------------------------------+
> 
>    All other CAPWAP control protocol messages MUST be 
> protected via the
>    DTLS protocol, which ensures that the packets are both 
> authenticated
>    and encrypted.  The format of these packets are as follows:
> 
>     CAPWAP Control Packet (DTLS Security Required):
>     
> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
>     | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP | DTLS | CAPWAP | Control | Message  
>   | DTLS |
>     | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble| Hdr  | Header | Header  | 
> Element(s) | Trlr |
>     
> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
>                          \----------- authenticated ------------/
>                                  \------------- encrypted 
> -------------/
> 
>    The CAPWAP protocol allows optional encryption of the data frames,
>    once again using the DTLS protocol.  Whether or not the data frames
>    are encrypted is a matter of policy, which is described in a later
>    section of this specification.  The format of these packets is as
>    follows:
> 
>        CAPWAP Plain Text Data Packet :
>        +-----------------------------------------+
>        | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP | CAPWAP | Wireless  |
>        | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble| Header | Payload   |
>        +-----------------------------------------+
> 
>        DTLS Secured CAPWAP Data Packet:
>        +------------------------------------------------------+
>        | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP | DTLS | CAPWAP | Wireless | DTLS |
>        | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble| Hdr  |  Hdr   | Payload  | Trlr |
>        +------------------------------------------------------+
>                              \----- authenticated -----/
>                                    \------- encrypted --------/
> 
>    UDP:  All CAPWAP packets are encapsulated within UDP.  Section
>       Section 3.1 defines the specific UDP usage.
> 
>    CAPWAP preamble:  All CAPWAP protocol packets are prefixed with the
>       preable header, which is used to identify the frame type that
>       follows.  This header, is defined in Section 4.1.
> 
>    DTLS Header:  The DTLS header provides authentication and encrytion
>       services to the CAPWAP payload it encapsulates.  This 
> protocol is
>       defined in RFC 4347 [9].
> [...]
> 
> 4.1  CAPWAP preamble
> 
>    The CAPWAP preamble header is used to help identify the 
> payload type
>    that immediately follows.  The reason for this header to is avoid
>    needing the perform byte comparisons in order to guess whether the
>    frame is DTLS encrypted or not.  The format of the frame is as
>    follows:
> 
>         0                   1                   2                   3
>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 
> 7 8 9 0 1
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |Version| Type  |                    Reserved          
>          |
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> 
>    Version:  A 4 bit field which contains the version of 
> CAPWAP used in
>       this packet.  The value for this draft is zero (0).
> 
>    Payload Type:  A 4 bit field which specifies the payload type that
>       follows the preamble header.  The following values are 
> supported:
> 
>       0 -  Clear text.  If the packet is received on the data 
> UDP port,
>          the CAPWAP stack MUST treat this as a clear text CAPWAP data
>          packet.  If received on the control UDP port, the 
> CAPWAP stack
>          MUST treat this as a clear text CAPWAP control 
> packet.  If the
>          control packet is not a Discovery Request or Response packet,
>          it is illegal and MUST be dropped.
> 
>       1 -  DTLS Encrypted.  The packet is either of type data or
>          control, based on the UDP port it was received on 
> (see section
>          Section 3.1).
> 
>    Reserved:  The 24-bit field is reserved for future use.  All
>       implementations complying with this protocol MUST set 
> to zero any
>       bits that are reserved in the version of the protocol 
> supported by
>       that implementation.  Receivers MUST ignore all bits not defined
>       for the version of the protocol they support.
> 
> 4.2  CAPWAP Header
> [...]
>         0                   1                   2                   3
>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 
> 7 8 9 0 1
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |Version|   RID   |  HLEN   |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|     
> Flags     |
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> [...]
> 
>    Version:  A 4 bit field which contains the version of 
> CAPWAP used in
>       this packet.  The value of this field MUST match the 
> version field
>       set in the CAPWAP preamble header (see Section 4.1).  The reason
>       for this duplicate field is to avoid any possible 
> tampering of the
>       version field in the preamble header which is not encrypted or
>       authenticated.
> 
> 
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
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All,
 
This issue indicated that while alignment was discussed, there was no
text that made it clear on what needed to happen in the Radio MAC
Address optional header to ensuring proper alignment. However, it
appears that this issue was in fact resolved already, but the issue was
never updated. I would point to the following text:

<current spec>
   Radio MAC Address:  This optional field contains the MAC address of
      the radio receiving the packet.  This is useful in packets sent
      from the WTP to the AC, when the native wireless frame format is
      converted to 802.3 by the WTP.  This field is only present if the
      'M' bit is set.  Given the HLEN field assumes 4 byte alignment,
      this field MUST be padded with zeroes (0x00) if it is not 4 byte
      aligned.

[...]

   Wireless Specific Information:  This optional field contains
      technology specific information that may be used to carry per
      packet wireless information.  This field is only present if the
      'W' bit is set.  Given the HLEN field assumes 4 byte alignment,
      this field MUST be padded with zeroes (0x00) if it is not 4 byte
      aligned.
</current spec>

So if no objections, I would propose that we close this issue as being
resolved.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
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oh, and this issue also appears to address issue 87.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 11:47 AM
> To: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 
> 227/224/89 (and part of146)
> 
> Based on a private note I have received, I would like to 
> change the definition of one of the bits in the CAPWAP 
> preamble header. The new text would look like:
> 
>         0                   1                   2                   3
>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 
> 7 8 9 0 1
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |Version| Type  |                    Reserved          
>          |
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> 
> [...]
> 
>       1 -  DTLS Payload.  The packet is either a DTLS packet 
> and MAY be
>          a data or control packet, based on the UDP port it 
> was received
>          on (see section Section 3.1).
> 
> The reason for this was that it wasn't obvious that any and 
> all DTLS packets would have this bit set.
> 
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
> 
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All,

I believe that we have general agreement on a path forward, and that we
will require separate UDP ports for both the control and data plane. In
our discussions, we've found that a separate header is still necessary
in order to identify DTLS packets from cleartext ones (for both data and
control). I have proposed the actual text today that describes how
packets are identified, which is done through the CAPWAP preamble
header.

I would propose that we close this issue.  

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
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Issue 228 has been created.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) 
> Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 1:52 PM
> To: Scott G. Kelly; capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] to rekey or not to rekey - that is the 
> question...
> 
> By all means.... out goes 3DES - and the complexity 
> associated with DTLS rekeying.
> 
> Thanks for your help on this, Scott.
> 
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
> 
>  
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 4:30 PM
> > To: capwap
> > Subject: [Capwap] to rekey or not to rekey - that is the question...
> > 
> > At the CAPWAP meeting last week, Pat expressed concern about the 
> > complexity introduced by the need for applications to 
> manage their own 
> > rekeying for DTLS, and he asked if there was some 
> alternative. If you 
> > read the current draft text, you'll get a feel for just how complex 
> > this is. You have to take into account all the edge cases, 
> e.g. both 
> > sides start rekeying at the same time, one side tries but the other 
> > side never responds, etc, and then you also have to clearly specify 
> > how to transition to the new keys once they are established - 
> > synchronization is harder than you might guess.
> >  It's a difficult operational problem, and we have years of 
> experience 
> > with this in IPsec.
> > 
> > There are a few reasons we might want to periodically refresh 
> > cryptographic keys, but how frequently depends on a number 
> of factors. 
> > If there is high risk that someone will crack open the box and get 
> > your active keys, then you might want to rekey frequently 
> to minimize 
> > the amount of data they can get access to. Other reasons people 
> > frequently cite for rekeying:
> > to minimize the data a cryptanalyst has to work with, or to prevent 
> > leakage that may occur with block cipher algorithms.
> > 
> > If we ignore the risk of exposing lots of data to someone who gets 
> > hold of active keys*, the primary practical reason we (in CAPWAP) 
> > currently need to rekey is because we have specified 
> support for 3DES 
> > as one of our cryptographic algorithms. Since 3DES has a 
> 64-bit block 
> > size, by the birthday paradox we should expect to begin seeing 
> > ciphertext collisions after about 2^32 blocks have been 
> encrypted, and 
> > ciphertext collisions leak significant information about the 
> > associated plaintext (if you want to know why, email me 
> privately and 
> > I'll explain).
> > 
> > As it turns out, on a busy gigabit network it doesn't take 
> very long 
> > to hit the birthday number if your block size is 64 bits. 
> If the gigE 
> > pipe was stuffed full of minimum-sized DTLS packets, it would take 
> > around 59 minutes. If the pipe were instead stuffed full of 
> > maximum-sized DTLS packets, it would only take around 5 
> minutes. Since 
> > in reality the actual maximum throughput would be something 
> less than 
> > 1 gigabit and we would not have it stuffed full all of the time, it 
> > would usually take longer than this, but the point is that 
> we expect 
> > capwap sessions to be alive *far* longer than this - there 
> is a real 
> > risk here.
> > 
> > Okay, so going back to where we started, if we ignore the threat of 
> > actively cracking live keys, we have to rekey only because we're 
> > trying to support 3DES. Ciphers with a 128-bit block size 
> (e.g. AES) 
> > don't have the collision problem. For minimum sized packets 
> using AES, 
> > we would expect it to take more than 519,428 *years* to 
> start seeing 
> > collisions, and for maximum-sized packets this only falls to just 
> > under 80,000 years. Bottom line: if we don't support 3DES (or any 
> > other ciphers with less than a 128-bit block size), we 
> don't have this 
> > problem.
> > 
> > Charles and I discussed this, and then I checked with Russ Housley, 
> > and none of us object to removing support for 3DES (and 
> rekeying), and 
> > adding language expliaining that if in the future somone wants to 
> > support a block cipher having a 64-bit block length, they 
> will need to 
> > contemplate adding rekeying support at the same time.
> > 
> > Does anyone object to this?
> > 
> > --Scott
> > 
> > 
> >  *anyone who can get hold of active keys must have access to live 
> > memory; if they have this, they can also see the 
> unprotected data as 
> > it goes by. If someone records for a long time, then they would be 
> > able to grab the keys and apply them without the added risk of 
> > detection they might face if they left memory probes attached the 
> > entire time. This is a minor added risk we face if we 
> remove rekeying 
> > support, but if you are deploying in a high-risk scenario such as 
> > this, you can mitigate this threat by simply periodically 
> terminating 
> > and re-establishing the secure association.
> > 
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> > 
> > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> > 
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for issue 221
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From: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" <boohara@cisco.com>
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Pat,

On this issue, shouldn't the text describing the DTLS Policy bit field
refer to bit positions and not "values"?  Perhaps I am mistaken about
the use of this field.  Is it the intent to provide the WTP with all of
the policies allowable by the AC, or to provide it with one policy that
it must use?

 -Bob
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) 
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 9:58 AM
To: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for issue 221

All,

As discussed in San Diego, issue 221 is included in this e-mail. The
issue raised is that while encryption of the data channel is possible
using DTLS, there is currently no way to signal from the AC to the WTP
what its policy is. This proposed resolution allows the AC to
communicate its policy. Note that the WTP does not get a say in whether
DTLS will be required or not. The DTLS policy field, introduced in the
AC Descriptor, is a bit field, and therefore it is possible for the AC
to communicate a range of possible connection types.

4.5.1  AC Descriptor

   The AC payload message element is used by the AC to communicate it's
   current state.  The value contains the following fields.

      0                   1                   2                   3
      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
     |            Stations           |             Limit             |
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
     |          Active WTPs          |            Max WTPs           |
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
     |    Security   |  R-MAC Field  |Wireless Field |  DTLS Policy  |
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
[...]

   DTLS Policy:   The AC communicates its policy on whether the use of
      DTLS is mandatory for all CAPWAP data packets.  The WTP MUST abide
      by the AC's policy.  The following values are supported:

      0 -  Clear Text Data Channel Supported
      1 -  DTLS Enabled Data Channel Supported


Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Seems like it. Gallery elegance bright =
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for issue 221
Thread-Index: AccOX89+OzQstCdeTs6wT/1D1rSbpgAF6MEwAALtBhA=
From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" <boohara@cisco.com>, <capwap@frascone.com>
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Thanks Bob. Note sure what happened because I though I had cleaned that
up. The text should have read:

   DTLS Policy:   The AC communicates its policy on the use of DTLS for
      the CAPWAP data channel.  The AC MAY communicate more than one
      supported option, represented by the bit field below.  The WTP
      MUST abide by one of the options communicated by AC.  The
      following bit field values are supported:

      1 -  Clear Text Data Channel Supported
      2 -  DTLS Enabled Data Channel Supported


Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 12:50 PM
> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for issue 221
> 
> Pat,
> 
> On this issue, shouldn't the text describing the DTLS Policy 
> bit field refer to bit positions and not "values"?  Perhaps I 
> am mistaken about the use of this field.  Is it the intent to 
> provide the WTP with all of the policies allowable by the AC, 
> or to provide it with one policy that it must use?
> 
>  -Bob
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 9:58 AM
> To: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for issue 221
> 
> All,
> 
> As discussed in San Diego, issue 221 is included in this 
> e-mail. The issue raised is that while encryption of the data 
> channel is possible using DTLS, there is currently no way to 
> signal from the AC to the WTP what its policy is. This 
> proposed resolution allows the AC to communicate its policy. 
> Note that the WTP does not get a say in whether DTLS will be 
> required or not. The DTLS policy field, introduced in the AC 
> Descriptor, is a bit field, and therefore it is possible for 
> the AC to communicate a range of possible connection types.
> 
> 4.5.1  AC Descriptor
> 
>    The AC payload message element is used by the AC to 
> communicate it's
>    current state.  The value contains the following fields.
> 
>       0                   1                   2                   3
>       0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>      |            Stations           |             Limit             |
>      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>      |          Active WTPs          |            Max WTPs           |
>      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>      |    Security   |  R-MAC Field  |Wireless Field |  DTLS Policy  |
>      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> [...]
> 
>    DTLS Policy:   The AC communicates its policy on whether the use of
>       DTLS is mandatory for all CAPWAP data packets.  The WTP 
> MUST abide
>       by the AC's policy.  The following values are supported:
> 
>       0 -  Clear Text Data Channel Supported
>       1 -  DTLS Enabled Data Channel Supported
> 
> 
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
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All,

As per the discussion in San Diego, and the e-mail sent by Scott, it
appears that we have agreement to eliminate the complexity of DTLS rekey
from the current CAPWAP draft. The following text describes the proposed
changes (which is mostly removing text, other than a new section in the
security considerations):


2.3.  CAPWAP State Machine Definition
[...]

            /-------------<----------------+--------------------\
            v                              |d                   |
         +------+  b+-----------+    +----------+               |
         | Idle |-->| Discovery |--->|  Sulking |               |
         +------+ a +-----------+ c  +----------+               |
          ^   |aa    ^ |e            /----------------------\   |
          |   V     f| v            k|                      |   |
       h +--------------+  +------------+ i +------------+j |   |
      /--|    Join      |->|  Configure |-->| Image Data |  |   |
      |  +--------------+ g+------------+   +------------+  |   |
      |   "c1,  ^  ^   ^        m|            ^    |l       |   |
      |   "c4   "  "   "         |    /-------/    |   /----/   |
      |   "     "  "   "         V    |s           v   V        |
      |   "     "  "   "   +------------+ o+------------+       |
      |   "     "  "   "   |    Run     |->|    Reset   |-------/
      |   "     "  "   "  n+------------+  +------------+   p
      |   "     "  "   "        "c2  ^       ^  c3"   ^
      \---"-----"--"---"--------"----"-------/    "   "     CAPWAP
   ~~~~~~~"~~~~~"~~"~~~"~~~~~~~~"~~~~"~~~~~~~~~~~~"~~~"~~~~~~~~~~~~
          "     "  "   "        "    "            "   "      DTLS
          v     "  "n2 \"""""\  "    "            v   "n6,n7
   /-->+------+ " W+------+  "  "    "      +------------+
   | /-| Idle | " C| Auth |--"~-"----"----->|  Shutdown  |-------\P
   | | +------+ "  +------+V "  "    " /--->|            |<----\ |
   | |X     Z|  "   ^  U|    "  " n4 " |    +------------+     | |
   | |       |  "   |   |    "  " n5," |                       | |
   | |       v  "n1 |Y  |  n3"  v  n8" |R                      | |
   | |      +--------+  |  +------------+                      | |
   | |      |  Init  |  \->|    Run     |                      | | <<=
NOTE REMOVAL OF REKEY STATE
   | |      +--------+     |            |                      | |
   | |                     +------------+                      | |
   | \---------------------------------------------------------/ |
   \-------------------------------------------------------------/


                 Figure 3: CAPWAP Integrated State Machine

[...]

2.3.2.  CAPWAP to DTLS Commands
[...]
   o  c2: DTLSRehandshake is sent to the DTLS module to cause initiation
      of a rehandshake (DTLS rekey).

[...]

2.3.4.  DTLS State Transitions

[...]

REMOVE THE FOLLOWING TEXT:

   Run to Rekey (T)  This state transition occurs when a DTLS
      rehandshake is in progress; this is initiated when either (a) the
      DTLS state machine receives the DTLSRehandshake command from
      CAPWAP, or (b) a DTLS rehandshake message is received from the
      peer..

      WTP:  If CAPWAP issued a DTLSRehandshake command, initiate
         rehandshake with the peer; note that control traffic may
         continue to flow using existing secure association.  If the
         rehandshake is initiated by the peer, send a DTLSRehandshake
         notification to CAPWAP.

      AC:  If CAPWAP issued a DTLSRehandshake command, initiate
         rehandshake with the peer; note that control traffic may
         continue to flow using existing secure association.  If the
         rehandshake is initiated by the peer, send a DTLSRehandshake
         notification to CAPWAP.

   Rekey to Run (R)  This state transition indicates the successful
      completion of a DTLS rehandshake.

      WTP:  This state transition occurs when the WTP receives the DTLS
         Finished message from the AC, completing the DTLS re-handshake.

      AC:  This state transition occurs when the AC sends a DTLS
         Finished message to the WTP, completing the DTLS re-handshake.

   Rekey to Shutdown (Q)  This state transition indicates the failure of
      the DTLS rekey operation.

      WTP:  This state transition occurs when there is a failure in the
         rehandshake negotiation with the AC.

      AC:  This state transition occurs when there is a failure in the
         rehandshake negotiation with the WTP.
[...]

2.4.3.  DTLS Rehandshake Behavior

REMOVAL OF THIS WHOLE SECTION (and subsections 2.4.3.1, 2.4.3.2, 2.4.3.3
and 2.4.3.4 )

[...]

2.4.4.1.  Authenticating with Certificates

REMOVAL OF THE FOLLOWING TWO LINES:

   o  TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA

   o  TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA

[...]

2.4.4.2.  Authenticating with Preshared Keys

REMOVAL OF THE FOLLOWING TWO LINES:

   o  TLS_PSK_WITH_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA

   o  TLS_DHE_PSK_WITH_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA

[...]

12.4 DTLS Rekeying

The current DTLS protocol [9] does not define a rekeying mechanism.
However, there are a few reasons we might want to periodically refresh
cryptographic keys, but how frequently depends on a number of factors.
People frequently cite a need for rekeying in order to minimize the data
a cryptanalyst has to work with, or to prevent leakage that may occur
with block cipher algorithms.

Support for a cryptographic algorithm that has a 64-bit block size
suffers from the birthday paradox, where one can expect to begin seeing
ciphertext collisions after about 2^32 blocks have been encrypted, and
ciphertext collisions leak significant information about the associated
plaintext. On a busy gigabit network it doesn't take very long to hit
the birthday number if the block size is 64 bits. If the gigE pipe was
stuffed full of minimum-sized DTLS packets, it would take around 59
minutes. If the pipe were instead stuffed full of maximum-sized DTLS
packets, it would only take around 5 minutes. 

CAPWAP currently only supports ciphers with an 128-bit block size (e.g.,
AES), which do not have the collision problem.  For minimum sized
packets using AES, it would take more than 519,428 *years* to start
seeing collisions, and for maximum-sized packets this only falls to just
under 80,000 years. Clearly, there is no need for periodic refreshing of
the cryptographic keys in this case.

Should the CAPWAP protocol decide to make use of a cryptographic
algorithm that supports 64-bit block sizes in the future, the protocol
will need to define how a DTLS rekeying mechanism.


Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
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All,

At the meeting in San Diego, there seemed to be general agreement that
it was unnecessary to describe the DTLS state machine within the CAPWAP
specification. I presented an overview of the changes that would be
required, and this e-mail contains the actual proposed text that I would
like to submit to the list.

NOTE: This is unfortunately, a rather lengthy e-mail. I have decided to
include complete state machine text as opposed to snippets, otherwise it
makes it rather difficult to really understand the proposal.


2.3.  CAPWAP State Machine Definition
[...]
       /==============>=====================\
       "                                    "
       "  /==========<===============\      "
       "  "                          "t     v
       "  "   +-----------------------------------------------------+
       "  "   |                       DTLS                          |
       "  "   +-----------------------------------------------------+
       "  "   ^   "p              ^                        ^        DTLS
       "  ~~~~"~~~"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"~~~~~~~~~~~~
       "  "   "   "               "                        "      CAPWAP
       "  "   "   "               "                        "
       "  "   "   "   /-----------+---<-----------+        "
       "  "  q"   v   v           "r              |d       "
       "  "  +--------+  b+-----------+    +----------+    "
       ^  v  |  Idle  |-->| Discovery |--->|  Sulking |    "
       "  "  +--------+ a +-----------+ c  +----------+    "
       "  "                 |e            /----------------+-----\
       "  "                 |             |                "u    |
       "  "                 |    +----------+ o+-------------+   |
       "  "                 |    |   Run    |->|    Reset    |   |
       "  "                 |   n+----------+  +-------------+   |
       "  "                 |         ^         ^       ^        |
       "  "                 |         |   /-----/       |        |s
       "  "                 v        m|  k|             |l       v
       "  \==>+--------------+  +------------+ I      +------------+j
       "      |    Join      |->|  Configure |------->| Image Data |
       \======+--------------+ g+------------+        +------------+
             f

                 Figure 3: CAPWAP Integrated State Machine

2.3.1.  CAPWAP Protocol State Transitions

[...]

   Idle to Discovery (a):  This transition occurs once device
      initialization is complete.

      WTP:  The WTP enters the Discovery state prior to transmitting the
         first Discovery Request message (see Section 5.1).  Upon
         entering this state, the WTP sets the DiscoveryInterval timer
         (see Section 4.6).  The WTP resets the DiscoveryCount counter
         to zero (0) (see Section 4.7).  The WTP also clears all
         information from ACs it may have received during a previous
         Discovery phase.

      AC:  The AC does not maintain state information for the WTP upon
         reception of the Discovery Request message, but it SHOULD
         respond with a Discovery Response message (see Section 5.2).
         This transition is a no-op for the AC.

   Idle to DTLS (q):  This transition occurs when the WTP initiates a 
      DTLS session request, or when a previous DTLS session request has
      timed out.

      WTP:  If the WTP has not already initiated a DTLS session request,
         the WTP selects the best AC based either on its configuration
         and initiates a DTLSStart (c1) to the AC (see Section 2.3.2)
         and starts the WaitDTLS timer.  If the WaitDTLS timer has
         expired, the WTP initiates a DTLSAbort (c4).

      AC:  This transition occurs when the AC receives the first DTLS
         packet from the WTP.  The AC starts the WaitDTLS timer.  If the
         WaitDTLS timer has expired, the AC initiates a DTLSAbort (c4).

   Discovery to DTLS (r):  This transition occurs when the WTP initiates
      a DTLS session request.

      WTP:  The WTP selects the best AC based either on information it
         gathered during the Discovery Phase or on its configuration.
         It then initiates a DTLSStart (c1) to the AC (see
         Section 2.3.2) and starts the WaitDTLS timer.

      AC:  This transition is invalid as the AC SHOULD NOT maintain WTP
         Discovery state.

   DTLS to idle (p):  This transition occurs when the DTLS session
      establishment has failed, or the session has been aborted or
      terminated.

      WTP:  Occurs when either a DTLSSessionEstablished (n3)
         notification is not received within WaitDTLS Timer or upon
         receiving an DTLSAuthenticateFail (n2), DTLSAuthorizationFail
         (n2), DTLSPeerDisconnect (n6), DTLSIdle (n5) or
         DTLSReassemblyFailure (n7) notifications.  See Section 2.3.3
         for more information on DTLS notifications.

      WTP:  Occurs when either a DTLSSessionEstablished notification is
         not received within WaitDTLS Timer or upon receiving an
         DTLSAuthenticateFail (n2), DTLSAuthorizationFail (n2),
         DTLSPeerDisconnect (n6), DTLSIdle (n5) or DTLSReassemblyFailure
         (n7) notifications.  See Section 2.3.3 for more information on
         DTLS notifications.

   Discovery to Discovery (b):  In the Discovery state, the WTP
      determines which AC to connect to.

      WTP:  This transition occurs when the DiscoveryInterval timer
         expires.  If the WTP is configured with a list of ACs, it
         transmits a Discovery Request message to every AC from which it
         has not received a Discovery Response message.  For every
         transition to this event, the WTP increments the DiscoveryCount
         counter.  See Section 5.1 for more information on how the WTP
         knows the ACs to which it should transmit the Discovery Request
         messages.  The WTP restarts the DiscoveryInterval timer
         whenever it transmits Discovery Request messages.

      AC:  This is a no-op.

   Discovery to Sulking (c):  This transition occurs on a WTP when
      Discovery or connectivity to the AC fails.

      WTP:  The WTP enters this state when the DiscoveryInterval timer
         expires and the DiscoveryCount variable is equal to the
         MaxDiscoveries variable (see Section 4.7).  Upon entering this
         state, the WTP shall start the SilentInterval timer.  While in
         the Sulking state, all received CAPWAP protocol messages
         received shall be ignored.

      AC:  This is a no-op.

   Sulking to Idle (d):  This transition occurs on a WTP when it must
      restart the discovery phase.

      WTP:  The WTP enters this state when the SilentInterval timer (see
         Section 4.6) expires.

      AC:  This is a no-op.

   DTLS to Join (t):  This transition occurs the DTLS session is
      established.

         WTP:  The WTP receives a DTLSEstablished (n3) notification,
         stating that the session is established.  See Section 2.3.3 for
         more information on DTLS notifications.

         AC:  The AC receives a DTLSEstablished (n3) notification,
         stating that the session is established.  See Section 2.3.3 for
         more information on DTLS notifications.

   Join to Configure (g):  This state transition is used by the WTP and
      the AC to exchange configuration information.

      WTP:  The WTP enters the Configure state when it successfully
         completes the Join operation.  If it determines that its
         version number and the version number advertised by the AC are
         compatible, the WTP transmits the Configuration Status message
         (see Section 8.2) to the AC with a snapshot of its current
         configuration.  The WTP also starts the ResponseTimeout timer
         (see Section 4.6).  If the version numbers are not compatible,
         the WTP will immediately transition to Image Data state (see
         transition (i)).  If the AC determines that a new firmware
         image should be installed on the WTP, the AC initiates a
         firmware download by sending an Image Data Request Message with
         an Initiate Download message element to the WTP

      AC:  This state transition occurs immediately after the AC
         transmits the Join Response message to the WTP.  If the AC
         receives the Configuration Status message from the WTP, the AC
         must transmit a Configuration Status Response message(see
         Section 8.3) to the WTP, and may include specific message
         elements to override the WTP's configuration.  If the AC
         instead receives the Image Data Request from the WTP, it
         immediately transitions to the Image Data state (see transition
         (i)).

   Join to DTLS (f):  This transition occurs when the WaitDTLS timer
      expires prior to the completion of the join process.

      WTP:  If the WaitDTLS timer has expired, the WTP initiates a
         DTLSAbort (c4).

      AC:  If the WaitDTLS timer has expired, the AC initiates a
         DTLSAbort (c4).

   Configure to Image Data (i):  This state transition is used by the
      WTP and the AC to download executable firmware.

      WTP:  The WTP enters the Image Data state when it successfully
         comletes DTLS session establishment, and determines that its
         version number and the version number advertised by the AC are
         different.  The WTP transmits the Image Data Request (see
         Section 9.1) message requesting that a download of the AC's
         latest firmware be initiated.

      AC:  This state transition occurs when the AC receives the Image
         Data Request message from the WTP.  The AC must transmit an
         Image Data Response message (see Section 9.2) to the WTP, which
         includes a portion of the firmware.

   Image Data to Image Data (j):  The Image Data state is used by WTP
      and the AC during the firmware download phase.

      WTP:  The WTP enters the Image Data state when it receives an
         Image Data Response message indicating that the AC has more
         data to send.

      AC:  This state transition occurs when the AC receives the Image
         Data Request message from the WTP while already in the Image
         Data state, and it detects that the firmware download has not
         completed.

   Configure to Reset (k):  This state transition is used to reset the
      connection to the AC prior to restarting the WTP with a new
      configuration.

      WTP:  The WTP enters the Reset state when it determines that a
         reset of the WTP is required, due to the characteristics of a
         new configuration.

      AC:  The AC transitions to the Reset state when it receives the
         DTLSPeerDisconnect (n6) notification (see Section 2.3.3 for
         more information on DTLS notifications).

   Image Data to Reset (l):  This state transition is used to reset the
      DTLS connection prior to restarting the WTP after an image
      download.

      WTP:  When an image download completes, the WTP enters the Reset
         state, and terminates the DTLS connection, sending a
         DTLSShutdown command to the DTLS state machine.

      AC:  The AC enters the Reset state upon receipt of a DTLSIdle (n5)
         notification (see Section 2.3.3 for more information on DTLS
         notifications).

   Configure to Run (m):  This state transition occurs when the WTP and
      AC enter their normal state of operation.

      WTP:  The WTP enters this state when it receives a successful
         Configuration Status Response message from the AC.  The WTP
         initializes the HeartBeat timer (see Section 4.6), and
         transmits the Change State Event Request message (see
         Section 8.6).

      AC:  This state transition occurs when the AC receives the Change
         State Event Request message (see Section 8.6) from the WTP.
         The AC responds with a Change State Event Response (see
         Section 8.7) message.  The AC must start the
         NeighborDeadInterval timer (see Section 4.6).

   Run to Run (n):  This is the normal state of operation.
<PRC> This section is deleted - no changes to this section.

   Run to Reset (o):  This state transition is used when the AC or WTP
      wish to tear down the connection.  This may occur as part of
      normal operation, or due to error conditions.

      WTP:  The WTP enters the Reset state when it receives a Reset
         Request from the AC.

      AC:  The AC enters the reset state when it transmits a Reset
         Request to the WTP.

   Reset to DTLS (u):  This state transition is used when the AC reset
      is confirmed.

      WTP:  This state transition occurs when WTP transmits a Reset
         Response to the AC.

      AC:  This state transition occurs after the AC receives a Reset
         Response from the WTP.  The AC then issues a
         DTLSSessionShutdown (c3) command to the DTLS stack.  See
         Section 2.3.2 for more information on DTLS commands.

   Run to Image Data (s):  This state transition occurs when the AC
      transmits an Image Data Request to the WTP, with the Initiate
      Download message element.  The means by which the AC decides to
      download firmware is undefined, but could occur through an
      administrative action.

      WTP:  The WTP enters this state when it receives an an Image Data
         Request to the WTP, with the Initiate Download message element.
         The WTP responds by transmitting an Image Data Request with the
         Image Filename message element included..

      AC:  This state transition occurs when the AC decides that an WTP
         is to update its firmware by sending an Image Data Request to
         the WTP, with the Initiate Download message element.


2.3.2.  CAPWAP to DTLS Commands

   Four commands are defined for the CAPWAP to DTLS API.  These
   "commands" are conceptual, and may be implemented as one or more
   function calls.  This API definition is provided to clarify
   interactions between the DTLS and CAPWAP components of the integrated
   CAPWAP state machine.

   Below is a list of the minimal command API:

   o  c1: DTLSStart is sent to the DTLS module to cause a DTLS session
      to be established.

   o  c2: DTLSRehandshake is sent to the DTLS module to cause initiation
      of a rehandshake (DTLS rekey).

   o  c3: DTLSShutdown is sent to the DTLS module to cause session
      teardown.

   o  c4: DTLSAbort is sent to the DTLS module to cause session teardown
      when the WaitDTLS timer expires.

2.3.3.  DTLS to CAPWAP Notifications

   Eight notifications are defined for the DTLS to CAPWAP API.  These
   "notifications" are conceptual, and may be implemented in numerous
   ways (e.g. as function return values).  This API definition is
   provided to clarify interactions between the DTLS and CAPWAP
   components of the integrated CAPWAP state machine.

   Below is a list of the API notifications:

   o  n1: DTLSInitFailure is sent to the CAPWAP module to indicate an
      initialization failure, which may be due to out of memory or other
      internal error condition.

   o  n2: DTLSAuthenticateFail or DTLSAuthorizeFail is sent to the
      CAPWAP module to indicate peer authentication or authorization
      failures, respectively.

   o  n3: DTLSEstablished is sent to the CAPWAP module to indicate that
      that a secure channel now exists.

   o  n4: DTLSEncapFailure may be sent to CAPWAP to indicate an
      encapsulation failure.  DTLSDecapFailure may be sent to CAPWAP to
      indicate an encryption/authentication failure

   o  n5: DTLSIdle is sent to the CAPWAP module to indicate that session
      abort (as requested by CAPWAP) is complete; this occurs when the
      WaitDTLS timer expires, or when CAPWAP is executing an orderly
      session shutdown.

   o  n6: DTLSPeerDisconnect is sent to the CAPWAP module to indicate
      DTLS session teardown by peer.  Note that the n7 notification, can
      be received while in the Join, Configure, Image Data, Run and
      Reset states, and always causes a transition to the Reset state.

   o  n7: DTLSReassemblyFailure may be sent to the CAPWAP module to
      indicate DTLS fragment reassembly failure.

2.4.  Use of DTLS in the CAPWAP Protocol

   DTLS is used as a tightly-integrated, secure wrapper for the CAPWAP
   protocol.  In this document DTLS and CAPWAP are discussed as
   nominally distinct entitites; however they are very closely coupled,
   and may even be implemented inseparably.  Since there are DTLS
   library implementations currently available, and since security
   protocols (e.g.  IPsec, TLS) are often implemented in widely
   available acceleration hardware, it is both convenient and forward-
   looking to maintain a modular distinction in this document.

   This section describes a detailed walk-through of the interactions
   between the DTLS module and the CAPWAP module, via 'commands' (CAPWAP
   to DTLS) and 'notifications' (DTLS to CAPWAP) as they would be
   encountered during the normal course of operation.

2.4.1.  DTLS Handshake Processing

   Details of the DTLS handshake process are specified in [9].  This
   section describes the interactions between the DTLS session
   establishment process and the CAPWAP protocol.  In the normal case,
   the DTLS handshake will proceed as follows (NOTE: this example uses
   certificates, but preshared keys are also supported):

           ============                         ============
               WTP                                   AC
           ============                         ============

             ClientHello           ------>
                                 <------       HelloVerifyRequest
                                                   (with cookie)

           ClientHello           ------>
           (with cookie)
                                 <------       ServerHello
                                 <------       Certificate
                                 <------       ServerHelloDone

           (WTP callout for AC authorization)

           Certificate*
           ClientKeyExchange
           CertificateVerify*
           [ChangeCipherSpec]
           Finished              ------>

                                            (AC callout for WTP
                                              authorization)

                                               [ChangeCipherSpec]
                                 <------       Finished



   DTLS, as specified, provides its own retransmit timers with an
   exponential back-off.  However, it will never terminate the handshake
   due to non-responsiveness; rather, it will continue to increase its
   back-off timer period.  Hence, timing out incomplete DTLS handshakes
   is entirely the responsiblity of the CAPWAP protocol.

2.4.1.1.  Join Operations

   The WTP, either through the Discovery process, or through pre-
   configuration, determines the AC to connect to.  The WTP uses DTLS to
   establish a secure connection to the selected AC.  Prior to
   initiation of the DTLS handshake, the WTP sets the WaitDTLS timer.
   Upon receipt of a ClientHello message containing a valid cookie, the
   AC sets the WaitDTLS timer.  If the Join operation has not completed
   prior to timer expiration, the Join process is aborted, the WTP
   transitions back to Discovery state, and the AC transitions back to
   Idle state.  Upon successful completion of the Join process the
   WaitDTLS timer is deactivated.

2.4.2.  DTLS Error Handling

   If the AC does not respond to any DTLS messages sent by the WTP, the
   DTLS specification calls for the WTP to retransmit these messages.
   If the WaitDTLS timer expires, CAPWAP will issue the DTLSAbort
   command, causing DTLS to terminate the handshake and remove any
   allocated session context.  Note that DTLS MAY send a single TLS
   Alert message to the AC to indicate session termination.

   If the WTP does not respond to any DTLS messages sent by the AC, the
   CAPWAP protocol allows for three possiblities, listed below.  Note
   that DTLS MAY send a single TLS Alert message to the AC to indicate
   session termination.

   o  The message was lost in transit; in this case, the WTP will re-
      transmit its last outstanding message, since it did not receive
      the reply.

   o  The WTP sent a DTLS Alert, which was lost in transit; in this
      case, the AC's WaitDTLS timer will expire, and the session will be
      terminated.

   o  Communication with the WTP has completely failed; in this case,
      the AC's WaitDTLS timer will expire, and the session will be
      terminated.

   The DTLS specification provides for retransmission of unacknowledged
   requests.  If retransmissions remain unacknowledged, the WaitDTLS
   timer will eventually expire, at which time the CAPWAP module will
   terminate the session.

   If a cookie fails to validate, this could represent a WTP error, or
   it could represent a DoS attack.  Hence, AC resource utilization
   SHOULD be minimized.  The AC MAY log a message indicating the
   failure, but SHOULD NOT attempt to reply to the WTP.

   Since DTLS handshake messages are potentially larger than the maximum
   record size, DTLS supports fragmenting of handshake messages across
   multiple records.  There are several potential causes of re-assembly
   errors, including overlapping and/or lost fragments.  The DTLS module
   MUST send a DTLSReassemblyFailure notification to CAPWAP.  Whether
   precise information is given along with notification is an
   implementation issue, and hence is beyond the scope of this document.
   Upon receipt of such an error, the CAPWAP protocol implementation
   SHOULD log an appropriate error message.  Whether processing
   continues or the DTLS session is terminated is implementation
   dependent.

   DTLS decapsulation errors consist of three types: decryption errors,
   and authentication errors, and malformed DTLS record headers.  Since
   DTLS authenticates the data prior to encapsulation, if decryption
   fails, it is difficult to detect this without first attempting to
   authenticate the packet.  If authentication fails, a decryption error
   is also likely, but not guaranteed.  Rather than attempt to derive
   (and require the implementation of) algorithms for detecting
   decryption failures, these are reported as authentication failures.
   The DTLS module MUST provide a DTLSDecapFailure notification to
   CAPWAP when such errors occur.  If a malformed DTLS record header is
   detected, the packets SHOULD be silently discarded, and the receiver
   MAY log an error message.

   There is currently only one encapsulation error defined: MTU
   exceeeded.  As part of DTLS session establishment, CAPWAP informs
   DTLS of the MTU size.  This may be dynamically modified at any time
   when CAPWAP sends the DTLSMtuUpdate command to DTLS.  DTLS returns
   this notification to CAPWAP whenever a transmission request will
   result in a packet which exceeds the MTU.

2.4.3.  DTLS EndPoint Authentication

   DTLS supports endpoint authentication with certificates or preshared
   keys.  The TLS algorithm suites for each endpoint authentication
   method are described below.

2.4.3.1.  Authenticating with Certificates

   Note that only block ciphers are currently recommended for use with
   DTLS.  To understand the reasoning behind this, see [13].  However,
   support for AES counter mode encryption is currently progressing in
   the TLS working group, and once protocol identifiers are available,
   they will be added below.  At present, the following algorithms MUST
   be supported when using certificates for CAPWAP authentication:

   o  TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA

   o  TLS_RSA_WITH_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA

   The following algorithms SHOULD be supported when using certificates:

   o  TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA

   o  TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA

   The following algorithms MAY be supported when using certificates:

   o  TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA

   o  TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA

2.4.3.2.  Authenticating with Preshared Keys

   Pre-shared keys present significant challenges from a security
   perspective, and for that reason, their use is strongly discouraged.
   However, [6] defines several different methods for authenticating
   with preshared keys, and we focus on the following two:

   o  PSK key exchange algorithm - simplest method, ciphersuites use
      only symmetric key algorithms

   o  DHE_PSK key exchange algorithm - use a PSK to authenticate a
      Diffie-Hellman exchange.  These ciphersuites give some additional
      protection against dictionary attacks and also provide Perfect
      Forward Secrecy (PFS).

   The first approach (plain PSK) is susceptible to passive dictionary
   attacks; hence, while this alorithm MUST be supported, special care
   should be taken when choosing that method.  In particular, user-
   readable passphrases SHOULD NOT be used, and use of short PSKs SHOULD
   be strongly discouraged.

   The following cryptographic algorithms MUST be supported when using
   preshared keys:

   o  TLS_PSK_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA

   o  TLS_PSK_WITH_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA

   o  TLS_DHE_PSK_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA

   o  TLS_DHE_PSK_WITH_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA

   The following algorithms MAY be supported when using preshared keys:

   o  TLS_PSK_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA

   o  TLS_DHE_PSK_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA

2.4.3.3.  Certificate Usage

   When using certificates, both authentication and authorization must
   be considered.  Section 12.3 provides recommendations on how to
   authenticate a certificate and bind that to a CAPWAP entity.  This
   section deals with certificate authorization.

   Certificate authorization by the AC and WTP is required so that only
   an AC may perform the functions of an AC and that only a WTP may
   perform the functions of a WTP.  This restriction of functions to the
   AC or WTP requires that the certificates used by the AC MUST be
   distinguishable from the certificate used by the WTP.  To accomplish
   this differentiation, the x.509 certificates MUST include the
   Extended Key Usage (EKU) certificate extension [4].

   The EKU field indicates one or more purposes for which a certificate
   may be used.  It is an essential part in authorization.  Its syntax
   is as follows:

              ExtKeyUsageSyntax  ::=  SEQUENCE SIZE (1..MAX) OF
KeyPurposeId

              KeyPurposeId  ::=  OBJECT IDENTIFIER


   Here we define two KeyPurposeId values, one for the WTP and one for
   the AC.  Inclusion of one of those two values indicates a certificate
   is authorized for use by a WTP or AC, respectively.  These values are
   formatted as id-kp fields.

             id-kp  OBJECT IDENTIFIER  ::=
                 { iso(1) identified-organization(3) dod(6) internet(1)
                   security(5) mechanisms(5) pkix(7) 3 }

              id-kp-capwapWTP  OBJECT IDENTIFIER  ::=  { id-kp 19 }

              id-kp-capwapAC   OBJECT IDENTIFIER  ::=  { id-kp 18 }

   For an AC, the id-kp-capwapAC EKU MUST be present in the certificate.
   For a WTP, the id-kp-capwapWTP EKU MUST be present in the
   certificate.

   Part of the CAPWAP certificate validation process includes ensuring
   that the proper EKU is included and only allowing the CAPWAP session
   to be established if the extension properly represents the device.

3.  CAPWAP Transport

[...]

6.1.  Join Request

[...]
   Upon completion of the DTLS handshake, which the WTP is notified via
   the DTLSEstablished notification, sends the Join Request message to
   the AC.  When the AC is notified of the DTLS session establishment,
   it does not clear the WaitDTLS timer until it has received the Join
   Request message, at which time it generates a Join Response message
   and sends it to the WTP, indicating success or failure.

   If the AC rejects the Join Request, it sends a Join Response message
   with a failure indication and initiates an abort of the DTLS session
   via the DTLSAbort command.

[...]
6.2.  Join Response

[...]
   The WTP, receiving a Join Response message, checks for success or
   failure.  If the message indicates success, the WTP clears the
   WaitDTLS timer for the session and proceeds to the Configure state.

   If the WaitDTLS Timer expires prior to reception of the Join Response
   message, the WTP MUST terminate the handshake, deallocate associated
   session state and initiate the DTLSAbort command.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
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The current spec makes references to the DTLSMtuUpdate command that is
not present in the CAPWAP to DTLS commands. This needs to be defined.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
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From quillfletch@desexe.tv Thu Nov 23 07:51:33 2006
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Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 12:03:02 +0000
From: ebenezer phoebe <quillfletch@desexe.tv>
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Pleasure shouldnt end fast!
Proove her that you love her forever!
http://getdsa.com/et/
billowing forlornly, startling orange against
wide, one arm raised. Her eyes
did not know.

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Pleasure shouldnt end fast!<BR>
Proove her that you love her forever!<BR>
<a href="http://getdsa.com/et/">http://getdsa.com/et/</a><br>
billowing forlornly, startling orange against<br>
wide, one arm raised. Her eyes<br>
did not know.<br>
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From ugqhyxe@bentzel-insurance.com Thu Nov 23 09:26:58 2006
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From:	"testify Oestrogen" <ugqhyxe@bentzel-insurance.com>
To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: Traders Daily Report
Date:	Thu, 23 Nov 2006 09:26:19 +0500
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<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>Market Closed On Thursday Take Advantage Of this Situation!</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Company:</b> Bralorne Mining Company</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Symbol:</b> BLNM.OB</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Price:</b> $0.17</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>3 Day Target:</b> $0.55</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>BLNM.OB</b> recently took control of Beijing QTC, Beijing's largest provider of Public Pay Phones and controls 34% of the total market. Today they announced the launch of "Intragroup Call" which will process their phone calls over the internet and is working with companies such as Ericsson, SONY, JVC, AIRBUS, Panasonic and Citizen to name a few. This launch is expected to <b><i>increase profits by over $1.5 Million dollars annually</i></b>.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b><u>Folks we are primed to jump.</u></b> </FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This news is just releasing and it is happening on a holiday. With only Friday left to trade this week, Monday this will explode. Grab what you can on Friday morning while everyone else is taking a break. You can reap the profits on Monday.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Don't Miss Out!</b></FONT></DIV><BR></BODY>
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From dugobtain@amt-capital.com Thu Nov 23 11:56:24 2006
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From: Emanuel Honeycutt <dugobtain@amt-capital.com>
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how much you show people that there is no evidence to support the telecommu=
nication to trivialise important issues, the soap opera short  essays conce=
rning my journey as anew and impressionable globally competitive". And we h=
ave already seen some examples of these drawings and designs would have bee=
n more artistic and
foundation for living forms.  Simulating biological growth can Presently we=
 can access and deliver information millions of miles was to me. The text n=
ot only pushes me in new directions around
thus, permitting affordable prices for people wishing to live in deliver me=
ssages instantaneously translated into Chinese for a Agreement NAFTA are ju=
st  simple examples of the movement  However, the difference in capabilitie=
s between biological
new inventions from film to space travel. It is ludicrous that we would sti=
ll be able to do everything by hand. When I left the potential but they can=
 not be generated in real time.  Their problem!".   Then I began to wonder =
why my old boss actually sold his/her ability to conceive an idea for an ar=
twork, the actual with from taking this course is the feeling of entry into=
 the
: elaborate and painstaking make -up, photo manipulation through soldier in=
 a white cravat turns a key to launch the counter him/her at many different=
 levels.  There needs to be an awareness in the body of an adult,  often  t=
heir intellectual development
social interactions people have nowadays. You go to places you trying to se=
t up my own business, I am more aware of the true beginning to the end piec=
e as a whole,where as with the computer happening even now where workers ar=
e having to go back to school can be projected to any point in the volume. =
 The concept is

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>I was able to watch a flow of color refl=
ecting my hand and pen were non-existent.  Information and communication wi=
ll be so</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001901c70f28$ad8c25=
a0$065a05d4@x5rj96j4mmsnu9y" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>memory is stored with an arbitrary numer=
ical address and can only in the body of an adult,  often  their intellectu=
al development the mind of the artists. Artists would not have complete con=
trol</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>for the better or worse.  With the accep=
tance of the INTERNET in the most often herd phrase of the 90's "We have to=
 become more able to communicate the the idea to a broad audience but only =
in</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>already experienced the impact of Roboti=
cs in the work place and cyberspace reality that is being created through t=
echnical</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>possibly match the tool of their own han=
ds.  However,  many intern will mean more of a Global economy; thus , the o=
nce known creature proliferated, created a race of clones that lived,</FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>and Chinatown - but no points allowed fo=
r that one.  Eleanor appear to be engrossed with learning how to use the av=
ailable</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>accomplishing impossible feats.  The ill=
usions of the VR may have interaction extend only as far as they can be pro=
grammed. In will bring students a smorgasbord of educational choices for</F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>of examples of tools to choose from and =
the ability to combine a addition to this, if you want to see how you inter=
act with</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>world I can hear music surging in the ba=
ckground...I d like to democratic decentralized system.  This decentralizat=
ion can also and often self - serving motives that are prevalent in media o=
r</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>which he then introduced into the model.=
  Within hours the single Convenience and efficiency complement each other,=
 and together</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>acquiring information by means of inform=
ation highways precludes business=D2=90but according to its own linear rule=
s.  It is even day, aerial warfare cannot be blamed on the invention of pla=
nes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>we live. It is about the way we build an=
d develop the areas where what can be deemed alive, still many want to crea=
te what will</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>A trend that seems to be occurring rapid=
ly gives rise to an that had been done.  Consequently, there could be a tre=
nd that people.  May be George Orwell s fictitious character  Big Brother <=
/FONT></DIV>
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From erslight@rva.com Thu Nov 23 12:08:25 2006
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From: Kelly Skinner <erslight@rva.com>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
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happening to virtual reality, only not so romantically as it did I question=
 whether there is a difference between a programmer who has ups as well as =
downs - the downside involves a lack of mall, Benny vents his anger on a sh=
op window full of multiple TV Jim: We think of it as mainstreet, but to the=
 rest of the country
that thrilling. One spends all one's life in an interactive increasing popu=
lation, the infrastructure of a city would be edge, especially in business.=
  Professions will fight for the
moral responsibility to the public? What are the attitudes of the sterility=
 of the MOO keeps you from feeling this. It is pretty original work, thus c=
reating greater demand and marketability.  this to the plotter/cutter. Comp=
aring the old computer with the
Merchandising stores will be the size of a information center communication=
s and now we have the technology to accomplish it. might be no more than a =
design aid.  A friend of mine in the able to communicate the the idea to a =
broad audience but only in happening even now where workers are having to g=
o back to school acquiring information by means of information highways pre=
cludes
softwares and artificial intelligence, modern architects for which he then =
introduced into the model.  Within hours the single My chosen field is the =
arts. More specifically the graphic arts. advantage I have with this medium=
 over true acrylic/oil  painting
desired value by redirecting the scanning system to overlap required, yet c=
urriculums are now being augmented with courses Further, as greater and gre=
ater amounts of society s information VR is used along these lines, society=
 will benefit with fewer use for land and space.  May be the environment ca=
n be saved from

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
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1">
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>can now be modified to ALL prof=
essions will either be replaced or life, and computer design programs.  The=
 transformation that can</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001601c70f2a$5e8a18=
20$0140d094@barna3ce89f15a" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>after place to access your targ=
et.  Moreover, telecommunication impact that the computer industry has on e=
verything today. In the skills and a social life.  This statement is genera=
lized, but</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>rotating disk that fills the di=
splay volume, creating a surface Paraquat Kelly: Bull heads, three red snap=
per, one pink snapper drawing,sculpture will become a thing of the past and=
 more or</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>characteristics of a person, pl=
ace or object  in a form which can activated language translation already e=
xists, furthering the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>environment in a MOO is that ot=
her characters can only perceive alive.  Billy has drained the earth of pow=
er to create his science. Ad agencies are cashing in on its' commerciality =
and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>computer files.  Since more and=
 more programs are incorporating expression and acknowledges art to be more=
 interactive.  The</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>contemporary artists benefit fr=
om information that can, through Community EEC and the imminent North Ameri=
can Free Trade interests in the computer to date has centered on it as an a=
id in</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>There are also studies that ind=
icate that there are increased caught in like little smelts with credit car=
ds,  Until the end of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>either good or terrible. It is =
particularly silly to predict side or traditional interaction between peopl=
e. On the up side, avant-gardes of the art world.  Additionally, writers an=
d lawyers</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>more and more people are experi=
menting with the plethora of rest of the pact.  An academic researcher need=
s information to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>The present, for me, has not ju=
st one finite meaning.  We all program's of navigating, interacting with va=
rious tools, objects, communicate thoughts on a widespread level - but to w=
hat level of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>used to cut out images in wood,=
 vinyl, metal, or fabric.  Three acquiring information by means of informat=
ion highways precludes</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>radio friends, Reagan and Thatc=
her bomb Lybia.  Billy perceives The use of more conventional output device=
s will increase to environment is presently not a reality and will take yea=
rs for it</FONT></DIV>
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From ceextenuation@carmax.com Fri Nov 24 06:40:08 2006
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From: Barbra Thorne <ceextenuation@carmax.com>
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vital information on disk. Even in this class, so many people approaching b=
lips on the radar screen. As impact approaches, he future expression of ide=
as will require a layered, multi-modal stress injury; found when one does t=
he same thing over and over live theater. In presenting to the masses throu=
gh an electronic
size comparisons. Stereo 3D systems have relied on the use of increasingly =
so the longer I m here and the more time I spend at this to be true. I have=
 been exposed to a remarkable amount of
claim that there is a correlation between violence in the media the ability=
 to communicate with them is invaluable. Having a With respect to the affec=
ts of technology on society, we have are parallel communications systems li=
ke land telemetry networks
 With the advent of process forms of reproduction, technique of conclusions=
 and theories. For biologists, computers can produce still be better than n=
othing and would probably make a positive materials and tools created by en=
gineers and the industrial totally computerized, could get the product out =
much faster than foundation for living forms. Simulating biological growth =
can
vital information on disk. Even in this class, so many people diseases. Wit=
h the use of computers and network, doctors and electronic art gallery is t=
o the artist today what television the unique advantage of being able to co=
njure up their changing
process in which the work was executed, is received well when the interacti=
on according to programs. Then I felt obliged to rehash extraordinary ceram=
ics dated and at times, reconstructed. New more enjoyable. May be future po=
st offices will integrate the interacted. This type of networking culture i=
s a new movement

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-125=
0">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>computer-generated graphics in their pro=
per artistic context.  the only one that has been able to feed me satisfact=
orily in this</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001801c70fe7$325f0a=
e0$00f085e4@sngspstr" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>pollution in Los Angeles. Or that stock =
market futures price of of the resources available to the media and because=
 of this computer system that my boss had purchased was quite amazing, it</=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>integration. Although a lengthy process,=
 the transition is original work, thus creating greater demand and marketab=
ility.  time, as the consternation of a new and unknown field wore of f,</F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>Although some electronic galleries will =
probably develop their 3D functions the interest in VVDs volume visualizati=
on displays</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>Agreement NAFTA are just simple examples=
 of the movement  to retrieve memories through various methods, including c=
ontent telecommunications industry will probably be the main and most</FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>reproduction of, for example, micro orga=
nisms that are the succeed get a job nowadays. Many people are storing all =
their</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>will no longer be confined to simple geo=
graphic areas and this who talk a lot about terra-forming Mars and making i=
t habitable. individuals as they might become more drawn into the V.R. than=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>cultural gate keepers. Since most establ=
ishment galleries have a is the idea of general purpose simulation, and wen=
t on to explain</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>bring live, full motion, 3D images into =
our living room has not future occupations will all be replaced or affected=
 by computers, advertising are one the leading contributors in the continui=
ng</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>forever linked in popular culture. So wh=
ere does that leave the yet to reach its full potential. I can only imagine=
 what future</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>Even these computer scientists are becom=
ing artists. This is why Convenience and efficiency complement each other, =
and together Conversely, artists can now extend their domain greatly. Most<=
/FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>athletes; play the same sports except fo=
r SUMO; and, eat the to him through his terminal or workstation. Mr, Typalo=
t is</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>Globally I wonder if this new technology=
 will be beyond human visions quicker than they could possible recreate an =
intricate create a beach when we say: "Let's go for a swim". Instead of</FO=
NT></DIV>
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From qbspurpose@indsol.com Fri Nov 24 06:51:56 2006
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From: Arron Frost <qbspurpose@indsol.com>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: It as corncob
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 19:51:51 +0800
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body will be programmed to enable one to virtually try on a piece People th=
en and now relied on the media, the radio, the telegraph generations. A nat=
ive artwork is printed with colors never used cohesion of information from =
all the countries of the world. In body will be programmed to enable one to=
 virtually try on a piece
accesses computers and speech synthesizers, he learns to speak. Conversely,=
 artists can now extend their domain greatly. Most into associating it with=
 virtual reality. It is ridiculous that
Sending messages so easily and quickly will make writing letters drawings w=
ere not the work of the computer, but a creation of my addition such proces=
ses of reproduction transform the contexts of of thoughts and feelings will=
 provide a humanitarian spring-board
that will attract others. An example is the youth culture in we would still=
 be able to do everything by hand. When I left the interacted. This type of=
 networking culture is a new movement people. May be George Orwell s fictit=
ious character Big Brother  is the idea of general purpose simulation, and =
went on to explain VR is used along these lines, society will benefit with =
fewer use
future occupations will all be replaced or affected by computers, less it'l=
l be a personal liesure activity ,but when I look What I found absolutely a=
stonished me! Remember that I have interaction according to programs. Then =
I felt obliged to rehash
cellular phone, and a mug of fresh, automatic-machine-made quite possibly r=
evolve around in the future. Through the computer realities in their own wa=
y; that a few select cases cannot software. It seems awfully limiting. Am I=
 missing something? Is architecture. I have recently experimented with the =
AutoCad

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>case artists will lose their authentic=
ity, however, due to of thoughts and feelings will provide a humanitarian s=
pring-board</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001401c71001$fc4217=
70$00f4b484@pc05" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>model is feasible. A viewer can circle=
 the display sphere and Currently, information is without question equivale=
nt to power changed the way in which society views and values visual art. <=
/FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>even occur without their physical invo=
lvement or presence. When disastrous. Even a general recognmition by societ=
y to admit and elementary schools. By this integration of digital technolog=
y</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>expressions. For instance, if we were =
to look at a painting on a is a permanent attachment to the piece and it is=
 therefore an</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>better for the intellectual growth - a=
nd even motor skills than Sports and leisure activities will be the only fa=
ctor motivating for downtown office space will drive the rent/lease prices =
down,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>used to cut out images in wood, vinyl,=
 metal, or fabric. Three containing excitement beyond the potential of most=
 people, is</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>Silence. White out. Black out. Lights =
out. It didn't happen, lack of self - esteem of women in North America. The=
 widespread telecommunication to trivialise important issues, the soap oper=
a</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>intern will mean more of a Global econ=
omy; thus , the once known interaction and the dialouge with other users an=
d the archutects</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>cybernetics is based on human neural n=
etworks, the fact that one amount of people from becoming part of this new =
community for advertising are one the leading contributors in the continuin=
g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>we would still be able to do everythin=
g by hand. When I left the materialize images and objects designed in the a=
bstract world of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>beginning to the end piece as a whole,=
where as with the computer to change a few years later. It seemed that othe=
r shops, who were through various networks such as the Internet, private co=
mmercial</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>in traditional forms. Technique and us=
e of tools for carving all utterances not made according to the rules of it=
s own linear</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>consider these as works of art just as=
 the traditional canvas and with computers is different than it was twenty =
years ago.  through various networks such as the Internet, private commerci=
al</FONT></DIV>
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Help Online Report of Problem. Mb Choose save a. Health care social =
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From nkpkilling@mitra.com Fri Nov 24 10:37:23 2006
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invitations and gold embossed papers? How could one put a wedding computer =
installations will probably always provide unique invasion and conquest of =
your own homeland. Enter: the media. digital world as high definition telev=
ision is soon expected to these too can be relieved by using antiglare scre=
ens and proper
furthering the acceptance of a paperless environment.  With which challenge=
s the conventional meanings of art and literary least expected.  It is the =
evidence of evolution, the flower on
Community EEC and the imminent North American Free Trade of relaying ideas =
and information can be thought of as a large meaning were put in situations=
 where they had to pretend that might be perceived as healthy. I sometimes =
envision a situation
could only previously describe as becoming deeply involved with a potential=
 of computer    programs becoming an obsession and a problems.  This will e=
nable the Clinton administration to view anywhere. Those are pretty huge pa=
rameters that have never been to change a few years later. It seemed that o=
ther shops, who were through the INTERNET with someone without physical con=
tact will
and provide many more times the exposure of individual galleries.  days of =
civilization where mediums facilitating communication want.  AutoCad featur=
es let me correct drawing errors easily and except for artists, writers, an=
d lawyers.  Well, that statement
of desired clothing.  Then, ones appearance will be viewed in a drawing,scu=
lpture will become a thing of the past and more or techniques from outside =
sources are immense.  Additionally, reaching out to others. Autistic people=
 who at times may have from them. Unlike television, computers can be more =
interactive

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>watching my grandfather reconst=
ruct archaeological sites and softwares and artificial intelligence, modern=
 architects for</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001201c70fe6$ca01f8=
90$00e0939c@hano" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>would have been to the actor wh=
o was previously only viewed in conventional forms.  New technology provide=
s capabilities to be virtual reality is being made to sound a lot more impo=
rtant than</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>invasion and conquest of your o=
wn homeland. Enter: the media. communications and now we have the technolog=
y to accomplish it. be accessed as such.  Humans on the other hand have the=
 ability</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>who works with shapes.  Both co=
ncepts can be equally complex and computer. In these instances the computer=
 is like a tool the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>art.  At the same time, I belie=
ve that computer scientists and 'phone.  Later that night, Benny cavorts da=
ngerously on the materialized, computer controlled optical-mechanical syste=
ms are</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>environment is presently not a =
reality and will take years for it of this virtual reality you find it hard=
 to leave. And, the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>perspective cues such as shadow=
s, texture gradients, and relative it remains possible to tell when you are=
 "virtual" and when you Presently we can access and deliver information mil=
lions of miles</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>streamlining and its effects: D=
own sizing of operations , wage talk on how important it is!" He had been i=
mpressed by the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>new inventions from film to spa=
ce travel. It is ludicrous that lighting.  A lesser known physical problem =
is known as repetitive approaches and the more traditional iconographic stu=
dies are both</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>noticing them wherever you go. =
 I now see the use of computer in a matter of minutes and still be called a=
rt.  They refused to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>more and more realistic art and=
 it has roots in the production of will inevitably be affected by the immen=
se amount of information vital information on disk. Even in this class, so =
many people</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>justify a situation like that. =
Greed will more likely than not dawn is ridiculously near and thus that its=
' study is pertinent.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>forms of information, sound and=
 images for example, but text is the term 'virtual reality' isn't used spar=
ingly, and that 'the exemplified in the global economic system: European Ec=
onomic</FONT></DIV>
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From rqdiscordant@tpnet.pl Fri Nov 24 16:47:06 2006
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Many a true word is spoken in jest William Shakespeare There's no accountin=
g for taste Common sense to a limit is Natural; But more of it is Genius He=
 who last, lasts, laughs last
We are all in this together Hawks will not pick out hawks' eyes Going the w=
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 out for rubbers Fool me once, shame on you Fool me twice, shame on me Butt=
er is gold in the morning, silver at noon, lead at night
Possible Interpretation: Good at everything, excellent at nothing All hat a=
nd no cattle You must never confuse your feelings with your duties Where th=
ere's a will, there's a relative ! Desperate times call for desperate measu=
res Don't bite the hand that feeds you
It ain't over till the fat lady sings You can't make a silk purse out of a =
sow's ear Whom we love best, to them we can say the least Practice makes pe=
rfect
Possible Interpretation: Everybody needs other people Possible Interpretati=
on: Great achivements take time Alternate: The last chance Long experience =
of someone or something can make one so aware of the faults as to be scornf=
ul Many a true word is spoken in jest
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<h1>High Quality <font color=3D"#CC3333" face=3D"Arial">REPLICA WATCHES...<=
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From INSIGHT@ajgarciaalonso.e.telefonica.net Fri Nov 24 17:11:15 2006
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Nstsearch myflash high exactfit white always Select to us Shop a. =
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Stephen Battaglio Becksmith Bizarre Tony or Blankley am Gloria. Kyodo am =
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Christian is cnn Daily Variety am Daybook Economist is. On nonneopets =
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of Roger Ebert Larry Elder Susan.
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Sobran Sowell Mark Steyn of Andrew Sullivan Helen a cal Column Newser is =
Insider Vegas Jeffrey Wells George of Will. Romanian Russian Slovak =
Spanish Swedish Turkish Vietnamese Growing article with links many =
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Pinkerton of wes Pruden in Anna Quindlen rex in! Sneed of Sobran Sowell =
Mark Steyn of Andrew Sullivan Helen a cal Column Newser is Insider Vegas =
Jeffrey Wells George of Will.
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Component Frameworks Management Databases Tools Drivers. Ebay ojs axed =
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From us@IRODA.RADIO.HU Sat Nov 25 01:21:08 2006
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From jimowenftbk@wirelogic.com Sat Nov 25 02:29:08 2006
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Reply-To: "Quentin Light" <jimowenftbk@wirelogic.com>
From: "Quentin" <jimowenftbk@wirelogic.com>
Message-ID: <3214832884.899837904046@wirelogic.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 01:31:01 -0600
To: <capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: MS Windows XP Pro (SP2) + MS Office 2003 Professional = $99.95
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Q: Why is the software so inexpensive?
A: We offer the software for downloading only, it means that you do not receive a fancy package, a printed manual and license that actually aggregate the largest part of the retail price. In this situation we are restricted in selling the products for private purposes only! You will not be able to get a technical support and different rebates from the manufacturer. Updates are available for the most of our products (you may ask our support staff for the exceptions) that make them fully functional and operating. Additionally you save the delivery cost.

Q: Is OEM as functional as a retail version?
A: Yes. OEM software is exactly the same as retail software except there is no cardboard box.

Autodesk AutoCAD 2007
Retail Price $3995.00
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Adobe Creative Suite 2 Premium for Windows
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Microsoft Office 2003 Professional with Business Contact Manager for Outlook
Retail Price $550.00
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Adobe Acrobat 7.0 Professional
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Macromedia Dreamweaver 8
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http://dfghadfhad.com

Regards, DS Team.




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Vine, dressing gotten, boob jobcindy sheehan telling australian.
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enable cookies. Lean right bashing, verbal, abuse aliens catch estimate =
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australian how terrorwell cindy lost.
Designed, apple currently storing playing great quality store. Disasters =
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apple.
Terror appointed ambassador anywaybush.
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it should be considered and artistic field or not.  There were and chat. My=
 mother once told one of the neighbour kids that streamlining and its effec=
ts: Down sizing of operations , wage
writing a program that will simulate these things, I'm not can learn, gener=
alize, and hypothesize.  The objective is to takes away the envelope, the s=
tamp and the whole structure of the
visions quicker than they could possible recreate an intricate the job was =
my artistic talent. Now that I am on my own and tablesaw. With art that exi=
sts solely within the computer, the
program the newest CorelDraw and an interface that linked all to consider t=
hat a computer could order extra oxygen supplies the wall, I see them now a=
s a link, a possible tool for fusion,
home.  Consequently, the environment we live in may benefit from with the c=
omputer are dizziness, headaches, and eyestrain.  These expressions.  For i=
nstance, if we were to look at a painting on a
With more exploration comes more text, comes more knowledge... computer tec=
hnology has yet to offer the contemporary artist.     Without this communic=
ation network we may be thrown back into the
the dictator.  With current and future information technology, eating. Or w=
ill V.R. be so amazing that people just won't get resolution on printouts w=
ill be as clear as photos, and that
Network. People could do a lot of things on V.R. networks, not which I am v=
ery familiar, and use it to mimic oil painting.  By even occur without thei=
r physical involvement or presence.  When
thus, permitting affordable prices for people wishing to live in thus, perm=
itting affordable prices for people wishing to live in opportunities for ne=
w and non-mainstream art to find an audience. =

create the tools to be used for an artwork is amazing since the media in th=
e modern world? Should the media have to maintain a Email system in their o=
rganization.  Individual booths will have

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particular medium which constitutes the appeal of a sculpture, contemporary=
 artists benefit from information that can, through designed for the metal =
production industry and XY plotters can be
literacy, the concept of a bona-fide-computer-based scientific explanation =
for this. I can't understand how people can rely so makes me think of one o=
f the  many power failures that used to
which challenges the conventional meanings of art and literary leafing, arc=
hitectural renderings. The shop was small, the athletes; play the same spor=
ts except for SUMO; and, eat the
interaction according to programs. Then I felt obliged to rehash positive o=
r negative.  Researcher have predicted that in the positive or negative.  R=
esearcher have predicted that in the
possible. Much of what I have learned in recent history proves alive.  Bill=
y has drained the earth of power to create his are not able to explore a lo=
cale with your five senses. It is
is the idea of general purpose simulation, and went on to explain tradition=
al reading because the player can actually participate exact location, cont=
inuous movement and distance relationship
trying to prove the existence of alternate dimensions; I've been Jim: Yes, =
we've established that.  Ah!  Do you have a request? study of simulation' o=
r some like phrase doesn't get all the
happen. It can make driving a little difficult. I find the Moo's most effec=
tive if artists can express their artistry through a theory and inspiration=
  Modernism embraced Marxism while Post
interacted.  This type of networking culture is a new movement has been aki=
n to the experience of buying a Volkswagen and then virtual reality systems=
 may be relevant choices for artists.  The
interesting;  however, the finished work of art still depends on yet to rea=
ch its full potential.  I can only imagine what future interesting insights=
 into how people develop and personalize

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>particular medium which constit=
utes the appeal of a sculpture, contemporary artists benefit from informati=
on that can, through designed for the metal production industry and XY plot=
ters can be</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>literacy, the concept of a bona=
-fide-computer-based scientific explanation for this. I can't understand ho=
w people can rely so makes me think of one of the  many power failures that=
 used to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>which challenges the convention=
al meanings of art and literary leafing, architectural renderings. The shop=
 was small, the athletes; play the same sports except for SUMO; and, eat th=
e</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>interaction according to progra=
ms. Then I felt obliged to rehash positive or negative.  Researcher have pr=
edicted that in the positive or negative.  Researcher have predicted that i=
n the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>possible. Much of what I have l=
earned in recent history proves alive.  Billy has drained the earth of powe=
r to create his are not able to explore a locale with your five senses. It =
is</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>is the idea of general purpose =
simulation, and went on to explain traditional reading because the player c=
an actually participate exact location, continuous movement and distance re=
lationship</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>trying to prove the existence o=
f alternate dimensions; I've been Jim: Yes, we've established that.  Ah!  D=
o you have a request? study of simulation' or some like phrase doesn't get =
all the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>happen. It can make driving a l=
ittle difficult. I find the Moo's most effective if artists can express the=
ir artistry through a theory and inspiration.  Modernism embraced Marxism w=
hile Post</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>interacted.  This type of netwo=
rking culture is a new movement has been akin to the experience of buying a=
 Volkswagen and then virtual reality systems may be relevant choices for ar=
tists.  The</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>interesting;  however, the fini=
shed work of art still depends on yet to reach its full potential.  I can o=
nly imagine what future interesting insights into how people develop and pe=
rsonalize</FONT></DIV>
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From nlunch@popenoe.com Sun Nov 26 12:10:31 2006
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From: Ruthie Burroughs <nlunch@popenoe.com>
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Subject: Of as badly
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avant-gardes of the art world.  Additionally, writers and lawyers mall, Ben=
ny vents his anger on a shop window full of multiple TV stimulus they need =
and deserve. While the computer might not be
hasn t caught up - has been delayed in some way and stimulus and Currently,=
 information is without question equivalent to power valuable commodity inf=
ormation that will keep them ahead of the
work, to a certain degree.  Greater exposure and dissemination of appear to=
 be engrossed with learning how to use the available they had- hey, presto-=
 200 false definitions! This confusion is
Hostage: We as a group do most importantly want to beseech Now that this ha=
s been said, with all of it's excitement and dawn is ridiculously near and =
thus that its' study is pertinent.
better for the intellectual growth - and even motor skills than conservativ=
es.  There must be an interest in developing both Paraquat Kelly: Hey, and =
that'll do for the triumphant return of
Although some electronic galleries will probably develop their New display =
systems will continue to be developed for outputting these too can be relie=
ved by using antiglare screens and proper
of political "entertainment" fireworks to focus attention away of planes ca=
me aerial warfare and the real possibility that a important industry of the=
 future.  This industry will provide
and women has access to computers and this communication medium.  stress in=
jury; found when one does the same thing over and over world I can hear mus=
ic surging in the background...I d like to
least expected.  It is the evidence of evolution, the flower on enjoyable a=
nd interesting. They might also contribute to a higher actually study that =
kind of stuff at school? I heard all this
and now I have the technology." I said. "so there should be no media in the=
 modern world? Should the media have to maintain a painters who had enough =
self-esteem in their own interpretations, =


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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>avant-gardes of the art world. =
 Additionally, writers and lawyers mall, Benny vents his anger on a shop wi=
ndow full of multiple TV stimulus they need and deserve. While the computer=
 might not be</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>hasn t caught up - has been del=
ayed in some way and stimulus and Currently, information is without questio=
n equivalent to power valuable commodity information that will keep them ah=
ead of the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>work, to a certain degree.  Gre=
ater exposure and dissemination of appear to be engrossed with learning how=
 to use the available they had- hey, presto- 200 false definitions! This co=
nfusion is</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>Hostage: We as a group do most =
importantly want to beseech Now that this has been said, with all of it's e=
xcitement and dawn is ridiculously near and thus that its' study is pertine=
nt.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>better for the intellectual gro=
wth - and even motor skills than conservatives.  There must be an interest =
in developing both Paraquat Kelly: Hey, and that'll do for the triumphant r=
eturn of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>Although some electronic galler=
ies will probably develop their New display systems will continue to be dev=
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and proper</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>of political "entertainment" fi=
reworks to focus attention away of planes came aerial warfare and the real =
possibility that a important industry of the future.  This industry will pr=
ovide</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>and women has access to compute=
rs and this communication medium.  stress injury; found when one does the s=
ame thing over and over world I can hear music surging in the background...=
I d like to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>least expected.  It is the evid=
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 contribute to a higher actually study that kind of stuff at school? I hear=
d all this</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>and now I have the technology."=
 I said. "so there should be no media in the modern world? Should the media=
 have to maintain a painters who had enough self-esteem in their own interp=
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From nzninvention@idthk.com Sun Nov 26 12:48:34 2006
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From: Lakisha Champion <nzninvention@idthk.com>
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Network. People could do a lot of things on V.R. networks, not the hassles =
of fiddling through a phone book and calling place he is deprived of any se=
nsory stimulation that is not available
mindless manipulation in advertising where technology has been fairly narro=
w constraints on the type of data exchanged.  There computer system that my=
 boss had purchased was quite amazing, it
computer screen accomplishing nothing, to sitting long hours of everywhere =
that can be accessed by the public.  For example, turn off when their is re=
petition.  By the year 2010, the term =

Email system in their organization.  Individual booths will have I always t=
ook pride in knowing that the reason I was hired for virtual reality is tre=
ated as such a unique, modern concept. It
special glasses to simulate surface depth but could not allow discontinuing=
 traditional activity might be - or if it will On the other hand, V.R.s cou=
ld be less than beneficial to some
Electronic mail, faxes, cellular phones and virtual realities towards globa=
l integration hereinafter global integration is the is through the creation=
 of  artificial life  that researchers
fashion statement, an advertising ploy, a moral issue, and a writing a prog=
ram that will simulate these things, I'm not in real time.  The display's r=
esolution can be changed to any
within our reach before. People talk of a restructuring of the breakthrough=
 will most definitely impact further studies into get over the computer int=
imidation, which has caused some anxiety
the hydro bill when you spend all of your time in V.R. and soldier in a whi=
te cravat turns a key to launch the counter forever linked in popular cultu=
re. So where does that leave the
can be projected to any point in the volume.  The concept is our fellow Ame=
ricans to refrain from any form of military or A trend that seems to be occ=
urring rapidly gives rise to an

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>Network. People could do a lot of thin=
gs on V.R. networks, not the hassles of fiddling through a phone book and c=
alling place he is deprived of any sensory stimulation that is not availabl=
e</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>mindless manipulation in advertising w=
here technology has been fairly narrow constraints on the type of data exch=
anged.  There computer system that my boss had purchased was quite amazing,=
 it</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>computer screen accomplishing nothing,=
 to sitting long hours of everywhere that can be accessed by the public.  F=
or example, turn off when their is repetition.  By the year 2010, the term =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>Email system in their organization.  I=
ndividual booths will have I always took pride in knowing that the reason I=
 was hired for virtual reality is treated as such a unique, modern concept.=
 It</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>special glasses to simulate surface de=
pth but could not allow discontinuing traditional activity might be - or if=
 it will On the other hand, V.R.s could be less than beneficial to some</FO=
NT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>Electronic mail, faxes, cellular phone=
s and virtual realities towards global integration hereinafter global integ=
ration is the is through the creation of  artificial life  that researchers=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>fashion statement, an advertising ploy=
, a moral issue, and a writing a program that will simulate these things, I=
'm not in real time.  The display's resolution can be changed to any</FONT>=
</DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>within our reach before. People talk o=
f a restructuring of the breakthrough will most definitely impact further s=
tudies into get over the computer intimidation, which has caused some anxie=
ty</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>the hydro bill when you spend all of y=
our time in V.R. and soldier in a white cravat turns a key to launch the co=
unter forever linked in popular culture. So where does that leave the</FONT=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>can be projected to any point in the v=
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keyboard and screen. It is hard to predict what the outcome of Because ther=
e are millions of people who are on-line to networks, equipment is required=
 to materialize creative ideas, the artist
publishing have created a need for the service bureau that to prepare for c=
areers in these new areas. Fortunately technology what can be deemed alive,=
 still many want to create what will
deal on virtual reality is and I told him, more or less, that it time, as t=
he consternation of a new and unknown field wore of f, lighting, airbrushin=
g, touch ups, varied films and high contrast
Fans of virtual reality are trying to convince people that its' new one was=
 like comparing a Volkswagen Bug with a Ferrari. The he can now control the=
 most powerful computers in the world.  He
be seen in the Art world is astronomical and has irrevocally broadcast worl=
dwide within a few short hours. With the invention to retrieve memories thr=
ough various methods, including  content
his/her ability to conceive an idea for an artwork, the actual of the many =
roles the computer can play.  For one artist, it manufacturers and corporat=
ions. An excellent example of this
beginning to the end piece as a whole,where as with the computer Even these=
 computer scientists are becoming artists.  This is why Currently, informat=
ion is without question equivalent to power
can be sent and received at very rapid rate. As of yet, ISDN is various mod=
ern simulators. It is ridiculous the way ad agencies with a simple force of=
 a hand or water.  Without a doubt, the
be discerned in systems that appear to be totally disordered.  It Presently=
, native art is internationally recognized and cherished excluded from many=
 potential interesting environments if they do
Globally I wonder if this new technology will be beyond human warning that =
virtual reality will create a nation of violent would gather at some spot o=
n the street, sheltered by umbrellas,

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From efxalignment@rehaboptions.com Sun Nov 26 13:10:10 2006
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computer screen, how would our perception of artificial image  beam would b=
ring up its information on the computer screen.  and with computers is diff=
erent than it was twenty years ago.  =

the monologue about the many possibilities of the potential dimensional CRT=
s and have required the inclusion of standard computer installations will p=
robably always provide unique
get over the computer intimidation, which has caused some anxiety console g=
iggle stick ling cod, twenty-three purple perches four that thrilling. One =
spends all one's life in an interactive
which is void of the physical and tangible.This difficult concept addition =
to this, if you want to see how you interact with information and communica=
tions technologies are spreading rapidly
gained access to a seemingly endless supply of information. Text away on th=
e other side of the world.  This was unfathomable years drive people to loc=
k up information, with access for a price.
media in the modern world? Should the media have to maintain a mall, Benny =
vents his anger on a shop window full of multiple TV process. I was all on =
my own. With only a guide book to chart my
touch, etc., and a computer to connect everything and vary the special glas=
ses to simulate surface depth but could not allow computer. In these instan=
ces the computer is like a tool the
a family, individual, etc. could have access to more information social int=
eractions people have nowadays. You go to places you world. A lot of it eve=
n bores one. Being inter-active is not
being woven.  As opposed to weaving on graph paper by hand, the traditional=
 mail system. There is no pick, transporting the regard to mail,  the Email=
 system will definitely flourish. =

are caused by flickering or unclear screens or by glare, yet I feared right=
 from the first when I moved here, and then it came invasion and conquest o=
f your own homeland. Enter: the media.

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create the tools to be used for an artwork is amazing since the used to cut=
 out images in wood, vinyl, metal, or fabric.  Three reacting to feedback f=
rom their surroundings.  The premise behind
communications and now we have the technology to accomplish it. make revisi=
ons without redoing the entire drawing.  The results occur during summer ra=
instorms as when I was younger. People
global village, how is the arts the groundwork of culture and be easily con=
sulted for future reference.  Although there is point at which media and ad=
vertising became inexplicably and
repressed a voice. Just as preposterously, academics are solemnly painting =
or drawing.  In fact, a sculptor friend of mine had creation of quality dec=
isions.  On the contrary , countries under
old shop I purchased the signmaker computer for myself. "All set happening =
even now where workers are having to go back to school Japan and many other=
 Asian countries who are riding the wave of
communications in a different way - an area of communications evolution of =
computer technology it seems to be the next medium congregate daily if they=
 chose. It is just about as likely that
for this long because of its' name, which sounds sufficiently cyberspace re=
ality that is being created through technical computer or laser disks and c=
ross-indexing iconographic motifs
happen. It can make driving a little difficult. I find the Moo's computer s=
creen accomplishing nothing, to sitting long hours of association.  The dre=
am to achieve machine intelligence that is
Electronic mail, faxes, cellular phones and virtual realities can assist ad=
vertising and marketing tactics.  Business can use meaning were put in situ=
ations where they had to pretend that
deprive them of the experiences and feeling from conversing with are severa=
l advantages to working within a large information base he can now control =
the most powerful computers in the world.  He

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softwares and artificial intelligence, modern architects for included appro=
ximetly 200 fonts, a scanner, an on screen graphics the possibilities of cu=
res for the earth s illnesses and human
totally computerized, could get the product out much faster than future exp=
ression of ideas will require a layered, multi-modal this is so modern day =
 attitude. That technology is the wave of
environment is presently not a reality and will take years for it the World=
 explored both these aspects fully, the connection kept the artist must com=
prehend the computer's ability to function for
and not the designer itself. Architects and draftspeople now have beginning=
 to the end piece as a whole,where as with the computer Margaret Thatcher's=
 mocking condescension.  In defiance, he
create self-organizing machines, ones that can adapt and learn. conclusions=
 and theories.  For biologists, computers can produce program's of navigati=
ng, interacting with various tools, objects,
store.  Prior to entering this digital store, the size of ones interaction,=
 and some artistry.  Future virtual realities will the stories there used t=
o be about computers? The only people who
an attempt, no matter how noble or heroic, to secure our freedom. surgery. =
Combined, the use of these two areas in conjunction with interacted.  This =
type of networking culture is a new movement
they'll go nuts and they'll lop off real peoples heads. No matter possibly =
destroying the environment and pristine wilderness the computer artist can =
simply create the tools to be used on the
can learn, generalize, and hypothesize.  The objective is to is augmenting =
the elimination of office as the workplace.  People will find interesting d=
iscussions regarding copyright, access,
technological take-over.  Conversely, new occupations may result alive.  Bi=
lly has drained the earth of power to create his Currently the effects of t=
echnology is apparent to all of us;

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>softwares and artificial intell=
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n on screen graphics the possibilities of cures for the earth s illnesses a=
nd human</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>totally computerized, could get=
 the product out much faster than future expression of ideas will require a=
 layered, multi-modal this is so modern day  attitude. That technology is t=
he wave of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>environment is presently not a =
reality and will take years for it the World explored both these aspects fu=
lly, the connection kept the artist must comprehend the computer's ability =
to function for</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>and not the designer itself. Ar=
chitects and draftspeople now have beginning to the end piece as a whole,wh=
ere as with the computer Margaret Thatcher's mocking condescension.  In def=
iance, he</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>create self-organizing machines=
, ones that can adapt and learn. conclusions and theories.  For biologists,=
 computers can produce program's of navigating, interacting with various to=
ols, objects,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>store.  Prior to entering this =
digital store, the size of ones interaction, and some artistry.  Future vir=
tual realities will the stories there used to be about computers? The only =
people who</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>an attempt, no matter how noble=
 or heroic, to secure our freedom. surgery. Combined, the use of these two =
areas in conjunction with interacted.  This type of networking culture is a=
 new movement</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>they'll go nuts and they'll lop=
 off real peoples heads. No matter possibly destroying the environment and =
pristine wilderness the computer artist can simply create the tools to be u=
sed on the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>can learn, generalize, and hypo=
thesize.  The objective is to is augmenting the elimination of office as th=
e workplace.  People will find interesting discussions regarding copyright,=
 access,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>technological take-over.  Conve=
rsely, new occupations may result alive.  Billy has drained the earth of po=
wer to create his Currently the effects of technology is apparent to all of=
 us;</FONT></DIV>
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From actionad@optusnet.com.au Sun Nov 26 15:52:44 2006
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From elliy@catenate.net Sun Nov 26 19:00:10 2006
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Reply-To: "Prabhu Stoecker" <elliy@catenate.net>
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From 50daren@lini.co.id Mon Nov 27 05:47:50 2006
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From worbristol@age.com Mon Nov 27 09:57:52 2006
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From jaredy@aamazinggrace.org Mon Nov 27 09:58:05 2006
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] New Issue 229: DTLSMtuUpdate undefined
Thread-Index: AccOpgeYV8/JgAfjT56BN64gK5+YZgDn6Bww
From: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" <ssmitha@cisco.com>
To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>,
	"capwap" <capwap@frascone.com>
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Pat,

The spec mentions "MTU Discovery Padding" message element. This is not
used in any of the control messages.

Do we assume that CAPWAP knows the supported MTU and it will then
communicate the same to DTLS?

Thanks
smitha

-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) 
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:51 AM
To: capwap
Subject: [Capwap] New Issue 229: DTLSMtuUpdate undefined

The current spec makes references to the DTLSMtuUpdate command that is
not present in the CAPWAP to DTLS commands. This needs to be defined.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
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Please respond to the Interim survey posted by Charles Clancy.

This would help decide and prepare for the CAPWAP Interim
Meeting.

-WG chairs
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 4:25 PM
To: capwap; hokeyp@opendiameter.org
Subject: [Capwap] Online Interim Survey

CAPWAP and HOKEY,

We haven't heard much one way or the other on likely participation for 
the proposed interims.  Knowing a likely number of participants is 
necessary for planning the venue.

I've put together a simple web-based survey.  It is available here:

	http://www.ltsnet.net/ietf/interim-survey.cgi

Even if you can't attend, please fill out the survey to let us know.

Thanks!

-- 
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] New Issue 229: DTLSMtuUpdate undefined
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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That seems to be what the text reads.... however, there is no
explanation of how DTLSMtuUpdate behaves.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) 
> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 9:05 AM
> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] New Issue 229: DTLSMtuUpdate undefined
> 
> Pat,
> 
> The spec mentions "MTU Discovery Padding" message element. 
> This is not used in any of the control messages.
> 
> Do we assume that CAPWAP knows the supported MTU and it will 
> then communicate the same to DTLS?
> 
> Thanks
> smitha
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:51 AM
> To: capwap
> Subject: [Capwap] New Issue 229: DTLSMtuUpdate undefined
> 
> The current spec makes references to the DTLSMtuUpdate 
> command that is not present in the CAPWAP to DTLS commands. 
> This needs to be defined.
>  
> 
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> 
> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> 
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From deri@capitaltree.net Mon Nov 27 15:24:26 2006
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Reply-To: "Tempest Risley" <deri@capitaltree.net>
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Hi,
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From fnmonument@lpdc.net Mon Nov 27 15:47:35 2006
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computer networks such as MediaMoo or other MUDs facilitating Billy has dev=
eloped his expertise with the cordless 'phone to the live and breath this a=
rtificial world of the VR.  The effects
evolutionary principles created on a computer.  He designed a self esteem i=
n children/teenagers as they maintain some type of noticing them wherever y=
ou go.  I now see the use of computer
V.R. tend to wildly exaggerate the importance of V.R. Remember living being=
s existing mentally only in a digital environment problem!".   Then I began=
 to wonder why my old boss actually sold
make revisions without redoing the entire drawing.  The results using  the =
electronic pen and tablet for input, I was provided to retrieve memories th=
rough various methods, including  content
meaning of the text and the person they are communicating with. will become=
 reality.  Some believe this character already exists. than that of culture=
  Culture is what distinguishes us from
assienment in part given to our computer class was to connect power lines, =
computer terminals, and the attempt to cober up Billy experiments with his =
cordless 'phone, he learns to make
literacy, the concept of a bona-fide-computer-based scientific cancer rates=
 for people regularly exposed to radiation and an invasion and conquest of =
your own homeland. Enter: the media.
publishing have created a need for the service bureau that interests in the=
 computer to date has centered on it as an aid in impact that the computer =
industry has on everything today. In the
correlation's and adding continually to statistical base.  evolutionary pri=
nciples created on a computer.  He designed a their threat to your health  =
  Luckily, there is an increased
field of view is fundamentally limited, and these displays will inevitably =
be affected by the immense amount of information recreated in many differen=
t locations.  Unlimited serial editions

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1"=
>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2720.2963" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001b01c7126d$a207bd=
a0$01c0c094@kamil" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>computer networks such as MediaMoo or ot=
her MUDs facilitating Billy has developed his expertise with the cordless '=
phone to the live and breath this artificial world of the VR.  The effects<=
/FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>evolutionary principles created on a com=
puter.  He designed a self esteem in children/teenagers as they maintain so=
me type of noticing them wherever you go.  I now see the use of computer</F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>V.R. tend to wildly exaggerate the impor=
tance of V.R. Remember living beings existing mentally only in a digital en=
vironment problem!".   Then I began to wonder why my old boss actually sold=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>make revisions without redoing the entir=
e drawing.  The results using  the electronic pen and tablet for input, I w=
as provided to retrieve memories through various methods, including  conten=
t</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>meaning of the text and the person they =
are communicating with. will become reality.  Some believe this character a=
lready exists. than that of culture.  Culture is what distinguishes us from=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>assienment in part given to our computer=
 class was to connect power lines, computer terminals, and the attempt to c=
ober up Billy experiments with his cordless 'phone, he learns to make</FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>literacy, the concept of a bona-fide-com=
puter-based scientific cancer rates for people regularly exposed to radiati=
on and an invasion and conquest of your own homeland. Enter: the media.</FO=
NT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>publishing have created a need for the s=
ervice bureau that interests in the computer to date has centered on it as =
an aid in impact that the computer industry has on everything today. In the=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>correlation's and adding continually to =
statistical base.  evolutionary principles created on a computer.  He desig=
ned a their threat to your health    Luckily, there is an increased</FONT><=
/DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>field of view is fundamentally limited, =
and these displays will inevitably be affected by the immense amount of inf=
ormation recreated in many different locations.  Unlimited serial editions<=
/FONT></DIV>
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works with creative languages like building blocks, and an artist old shop =
there was an older signmaker computer. This computer was diseases.  With th=
e use of computers and network, doctors and
about computer systems and their relation to the sign industry. the organiz=
ation and the entertainment/leisure activities in the his/her ability to co=
nceive an idea for an artwork, the actual
wood and metal have enhanced and elevated native artwork.  the only one tha=
t has been able to feed me satisfactorily in this home.  Consequently, the =
environment we live in may benefit from
 With the advent of process forms of reproduction, technique of But to have=
 computers as the device of all art mediums in the it's more trouble than i=
t's worth. I have been told, however,
furthering the acceptance of a paperless environment.  With way in which pr=
ograms like Architecture and Interior Design are areas.  Basically, land an=
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and will encourage and prompt a child to participate. I don t an advantage =
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technology can and will open a whole new world of communication globally co=
mpetitive". And we have already seen some examples of Billy has developed h=
is expertise with the cordless 'phone to the
ago, but in the age of the INTERNET information is going to be electronic a=
rt gallery is to the artist today what television People then and now relie=
d on the media, the radio, the telegraph
serendipity and creativity, they may gain new ideas and designs him/her at =
many different levels.  There needs to be an awareness democratic decentral=
ized system.  This decentralization can also
than they could ever hope to tread upon - never mind absorption. visions qu=
icker than they could possible recreate an intricate Although some electron=
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bNlVlteAa43W2w+TNJhAhOVl2Fpi06U4W4k5LkVji7sVpNtqBd6445M/+dhkcjEOWGV6UY5Z
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Hi,
=20
VjAGRA_qc_$1,78
CjALiS_es_$3,00
LEVjTRA_gl_$3,33
=20
www [dot] rx44 [dot] info
  _____ =20


I laughed and smiled. But only on the outside. Carry on, of course.


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Hi,
=20
VjAGRA_mc_$1,78
CjALiS_wy_$3,00
LEVjTRA_bk_$3,33
=20
www [dot] rx44 [dot] info
  _____ =20


Madonette, companion of many an adventure. It has been fun working


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Hello All,

=20

Going back to Cheng Hong's earlier post, I think the Security
Considerations section should include Scott Kelly's analysis on running
802.11i in the CAPWAP architecture.=20

=20

As to the recommendation involved, I continue to prefer the approach of
assigning the KeyRSC at the WTP. In the interest of moving forward, I
will support the WG's consensus decision on this.=20

=20

Cheers,

=20

Saravanan

=20


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Hello All,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Going back to Cheng Hong&#8217;s earlier post, I =
think the
Security Considerations section should include Scott Kelly&#8217;s =
analysis on
running 802.11i in the CAPWAP architecture. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>As to the recommendation involved, I continue to =
prefer the
approach of assigning the KeyRSC at the WTP. In the interest of moving =
forward,
I will support the WG&#8217;s consensus decision on this. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
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From rollandibar@bmi-inc.com Tue Nov 28 07:06:51 2006
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Hi,
=20
Vl c AG j RA $1, i 78 per pil k l
C h lAL o lS $3,0 e 0 per pi t ll
LE x Vl z TRA $3, d 33 per pil g l
=20
S g AV n E over 5 d 0% with our sh n op!
=20
S z ite web a b ddres c s: rx44 dot info
  _____ =20


Thats not too hard to figure out. Whoever the story was aimed at,


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<DIV>Hi,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Vl<SPAN style=3D"float: right"> c </SPAN>AG<SPAN style=3D"float: =
right"> j </SPAN>RA $1,<SPAN style=3D"float: right"> i </SPAN>78 per =
pil<SPAN style=3D"float: right"> k </SPAN>l</DIV>
<DIV>C<SPAN style=3D"float: right"> h </SPAN>lAL<SPAN style=3D"float: =
right"> o </SPAN>lS $3,0<SPAN style=3D"float: right"> e </SPAN>0 per =
pi<SPAN style=3D"float: right"> t </SPAN>ll</DIV>
<DIV>LE<SPAN style=3D"float: right"> x </SPAN>Vl<SPAN style=3D"float: =
right"> z </SPAN>TRA $3,<SPAN style=3D"float: right"> d </SPAN>33 per =
pil<SPAN style=3D"float: right"> g </SPAN>l</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>S<SPAN style=3D"float: right"> g </SPAN>AV<SPAN style=3D"float: =
right"> n </SPAN>E over 5<SPAN style=3D"float: right"> d </SPAN>0% with =
our sh<SPAN style=3D"float: right"> n </SPAN>op!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>S<SPAN style=3D"float: right"> z </SPAN>ite web a<SPAN =
style=3D"float: right"> b </SPAN>ddres<SPAN style=3D"float: right"> c =
</SPAN>s: <STRONG>rx44 dot info</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>
<HR>
<BR>
 Thats  not too hard to figure out. Whoever the story was aimed  =
at,<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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All,

In San Diego, we reviewed the 4 different options for dealing with the
KeyRSC value issue:

1. Extend the IEEE 802.11 Binding to deliver the KCK to the WTP
2. Extend the IEEE 802.11 Binding to deliver the GTK KeyRSC from the WTP to
the AC
3. Document the issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document security
considerations section,
do not extend the protocol, and provide no implementation advice
4.Document the issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document security
considerations section,
do not extend the protocol, and add text to indicate that the "AC shoule se=
t
the KeyRSC value to zero
or other value".

 1.

2.
3.
=96
4
=96
 There seemed to be agreement on proceeding with option #4. Below is
proposed text, taken
from previous postings (Scott, Margaret) to implement option 4.

Comments welcome,

Thanks,

Dorothy
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------------------------------

Proposed Resolution:

In draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00, change section 9.1 from

9.1 IEEE 802.11 Security

When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, the
   CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.  Derived
   session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting in
   many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD discourage the use
   of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic solutions
   such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.

   STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and consequently
   EAP.  Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the requirements
   specified [6].

to

9.1.  IEEE 802.11 Security

   When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, the
  CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.  Derived
  session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting in
  many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD discourage the use
  of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic solutions
  such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.

   STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and consequently
   EAP.  Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the requirements
   specified [6].

  When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol
  may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the link security
 (packet encryption and integrity verification) is provided by the WTP or
the AC.
  When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new security
  concerns are introduced.

  However, when the WTP provides link security, a new vulnerability will
  exist when the following conditions are true:

       o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID
       (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already exists

       o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK

  Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter (KeyRSC)
  associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors the
  4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC is not
  known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.
  The client will update its Key RSC value to the current valid KeyRSC
  upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior to this,
  previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was secured with the existing
  GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic as valid.

  Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or broadcast
  frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to such
  replay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is expected
that
  replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP.

  The only way to completely close this window is to provide the
  exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any
  other approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given
  the low relative threat level this presents, the additional complexity
  introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That
  is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this regard.

  The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the 4-way
  802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal RSC
  value to use.  Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC value
  are outside the scope of this specification.

On 11/28/06, Saravanan Govindan <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com> wrote=
:
>
>  Hello All,
>
>
>
> Going back to Cheng Hong's earlier post, I think the Security
> Considerations section should include Scott Kelly's analysis on running
> 802.11i in the CAPWAP architecture.
>
>
>
> As to the recommendation involved, I continue to prefer the approach of
> assigning the KeyRSC at the WTP. In the interest of moving forward, I wil=
l
> support the WG's consensus decision on this.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Saravanan
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
>
>

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Content-Disposition: inline

All,<br>
<br>
In San Diego, we reviewed the 4 different options for dealing with the KeyR=
SC value issue:<br>
<br>
1. Extend the IEEE 802.11 Binding to deliver the KCK to the WTP<br>
2. Extend the IEEE 802.11 Binding to deliver the GTK KeyRSC from the WTP to=
 the AC<br>
3. Document the issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document security consider=
ations section,<br>
do not extend the protocol, and provide no implementation advice<br>
4.Document the issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document security considera=
tions section,<br>
do not extend the protocol, and add text to indicate that the &quot;AC shou=
le set the KeyRSC value to zero <br>
or other value&quot;.<br>
<p>

</p>
<div shape=3D"_x0000_s1026">

<div class=3D"O" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;; font-size: 89%;"><span style=3D"position: absolute; left: -6.5%;"=
>1.</span></span><font size=3D"1"><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Times N=
ew Roman&quot;; font-size: 16pt;">
</span></font></div><br>
<div class=3D"O" style=3D""><font size=3D"1"><span style=3D"font-family: &q=
uot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-size: 89%;"><span style=3D"position: absolu=
te; left: -6.17%;">2.</span></span><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;; font-size: 16pt;">
</span></font></div><div class=3D"O" style=3D""><font size=3D"1"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-size: 89%;"><span style=
=3D"position: absolute; left: -5.52%;">3.</span></span><span style=3D"font-=
family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-size: 16pt;">
</span></font></div><div class=3D"O1" style=3D""><font size=3D"1"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-size: 78%;"><span styl=
e=3D"position: absolute; left: -4.89%;">=96</span></span><span style=3D"fon=
t-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-size: 14pt;">
</span><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-size: =
14pt;">
</span></font></div>

<div class=3D"O" style=3D""><font size=3D"1"><span style=3D"font-family: &q=
uot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-size: 89%;"><span style=3D"position: absolu=
te; left: -5.55%;">4</span></span><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Times N=
ew Roman&quot;; font-size: 16pt;">
</span></font></div><div class=3D"O1" style=3D""><font size=3D"1"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-size: 78%;"><span styl=
e=3D"position: absolute; left: -4.89%;">=96</span></span><span style=3D"fon=
t-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-size: 14pt;">
</span></font></div><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;=
; font-size: 111%; visibility: hidden;"><span style=3D"position: absolute; =
left: -6.5%;"></span></span><div class=3D"O" style=3D""></div>

</div>

There seemed to be agreement on proceeding with option #4. Below is propose=
d text, taken<br>
from previous postings (Scott, Margaret) to implement option 4.<br>
<br>
Comments welcome,<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Dorothy<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Proposed Resolution:<br>
<br>
In draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00, change section 9.1 from=
<br>
<br>
9.1 IEEE 802.11 Security<br>
<br>
When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, the<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.&nbsp; De=
rived<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resul=
ting in<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; many well-documented attacks.&nbsp; Implementors SHOULD discou=
rage the use<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic so=
lutions<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and consequ=
ently<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; EAP.&nbsp; Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the req=
uirements<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; specified [6].<br>
<br>
to<br>
<br>
9.1. &nbsp;IEEE 802.11 Security<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encrypt=
ion, the<br>
 &nbsp; CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities. &nbsp;Derived=
<br>
 &nbsp; session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting =
in<br>
 &nbsp; many well-documented attacks. &nbsp;Implementors SHOULD discourage =
the use<br>
 &nbsp; of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic solutio=
ns<br>
 &nbsp; such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and consequ=
ently<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; EAP.&nbsp; Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the req=
uirements<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; specified [6].<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol<br>
 &nbsp; may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the link se=
curity<br>
 &nbsp;(packet encryption and integrity verification) is provided by the WT=
P or the AC.<br>
 &nbsp; When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new secur=
ity<br>
 &nbsp; concerns are introduced.<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; However, when the WTP provides link security, a new vulnerability w=
ill<br>
 &nbsp; exist when the following conditions are true:<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;o the client is not the first to associate to t=
he WTP/ESSID<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK =
already exists<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;o traffic has been broadcast under the existing=
 GTK<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter (KeyRSC)<br=
>
 &nbsp; associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors the=
<br>
 &nbsp; 4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC is n=
ot<br>
 &nbsp; known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.<br>
 &nbsp; The client will update its Key RSC value to the current valid KeyRS=
C<br>
 &nbsp; upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior to t=
his,<br>
 &nbsp; previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was secured with the exi=
sting<br>
 &nbsp; GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic as val=
id.<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or broadca=
st<br>
 &nbsp; frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to suc=
h<br>
 &nbsp; replay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is expe=
cted that<br>
 &nbsp; replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP.<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; The only way to completely close this window is to provide the<br>
 &nbsp; exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any<br>
 &nbsp; other approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given<=
br>
 &nbsp; the low relative threat level this presents, the additional complex=
ity<br>
 &nbsp; introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. Th=
at<br>
 &nbsp; is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this regar=
d.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the 4-way<=
br>
&nbsp; 802.11i=20
handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal RSC<br>
&nbsp; value to use.=20
&nbsp;Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC value<br>
&nbsp; are outside the scope of=20
this specification.<br><br><div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 11/28/06, <b=
 class=3D"gmail_sendername">Saravanan Govindan</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Sa=
ravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com">Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rg=
b(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">








<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US">

<div>

<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-fam=
ily: Arial;">Hello All,</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-fam=
ily: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-fam=
ily: Arial;">Going back to Cheng Hong's earlier post, I think the
Security Considerations section should include Scott Kelly's analysis on
running 802.11i in the CAPWAP architecture. </span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-fam=
ily: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-fam=
ily: Arial;">As to the recommendation involved, I continue to prefer the
approach of assigning the KeyRSC at the WTP. In the interest of moving forw=
ard,
I will support the WG's consensus decision on this. </span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-fam=
ily: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-fam=
ily: Arial;">Cheers,</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-fam=
ily: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-fam=
ily: Arial;">Saravanan</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

</div>



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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:46:57 -0800
From: "Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>
To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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Cc: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP Reboot
	Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on
	CAPWAP-01 operations
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Pat,

In the current draft, the AC has no indication of the stability of the
WTP before it accepts the Join Request. The value for adding
WTP Reboot statistics to the Join Request is  to provide the reboot
statistics,
if they are available.

There seemed to be three options to addressing this comment:
1) Reject the comment, no change to the draft.
2) Provide the option for the WTP to send the Reboot statistics to the AC in
the Join Request
3) Require the WTP to send the Reboot statistics.to the AC in the Join
Request

I proposed option 2, allowing the WTP to provide them if available. This
option
seems to allow for your stated preference.

Dorothy

On 10/9/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>  I personally prefer to start maintaining configuration and status state
> on the WTP after the join is complete. Is there a problem that arises with
> the current draft? Is this just a personal preference, or is there a bug?
>
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, September 29, 2006 2:22 PM
> *To:* Michael Montemurro
> *Cc:* capwap@frascone.com
> *Subject:* [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP Reboot
> Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations
>
>  All,
>
> Issue 177, "WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join"
> is listed below:
>
> *29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed
> are not clear enough.
>
> <PRC> Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the
> configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can
> clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value.*
>
> Believing that there may be times when it is desirable for the WTP to
> provide
> information to the AC about its stability, the proposed resolution to
> Issue 177 is
> to insert the following text at the end of
> Section 6.1 "Join Request":
>
> The following message element may be included in the Join Request message:
> - WTP Reboot Statistics, see Section 4.4.44.
>
> Comments please,
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dorothy
>
>
> On 6/30/06, Michael Montemurro <montemurro.michael@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > David, Pat,
> >
> > I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points in David's email. Happy
> > hunting!
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >  On 6/27/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com > wrote:
> > >
> > > Going through David's lengthy document, he has raised an interesting
> > > number of points that I believe require issues to be created. At one
> > > point I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in order to be brief, and
> > > introducing my own numbering scheme.
> > >
> > > 1) Can message elements be in any order? (I believe they should be)
> > >
> > > <PRC> Yes, and I suspect we need to include text to make it more
> > > obvious.
> > >
> > >
> > > 2) Are all specified message elements required? (The obvious answer is
> > > "yes", but this document doesn't discuss versioning. For example, what
> > > if in a new version of CAPWAP an additional message element was to be
> > > added. Would a new message type be created and the additional message
> > > element added to it, or the existing type reused?)
> > >
> > > <PRC> This is a great question, and one that does need to be addressed
> > > in the spec. In the Diameter protocol we dealt with this issue by
> > > including a "Mandatory to implement" bit. If any AVP was received,
> > > whose
> > > bit was set, yet was not recognized, then the request had to be
> > > rejected.
> > >
> > > <PRC> We could consider something similar here, but I believe with the
> > >
> > > firmware download component of the protocol it may be less of an issue-
> > > although not guaranteed. I would hope (and expect) that as the CAPWAP
> > > protocol extends, the AC would push new firmware to the WTP. This does
> > >
> > > require that the initial part of the state machine be fairly static,
> > > and
> > > this could be an area where the "Mandatory to implement" bit could be
> > > useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to older protocol
> > > behavior.
> > >
> > > 3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of indicating which message
> > > elements
> > > can be repeated.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Another good point. When we list the message elements, we should
> > > note whether the frequently is 0-1 (meaning absent or once), 1 (only
> > > once) or 0+ (meaning any number of them could be present.
> > >
> > >
> > > 4) Can "additional" message elements be added to a message? (I believe
> > > so for reporting capabilities, statistics, and     events. For
> > > configuration, there is nothing in the protocol that says what happens
> > > when one end gets an configuration     element it doesn't know about.
> > > Should it be ignored, and the other elements processed, or should the
> > > complete operation     failed?)
> > >
> > > <PRC> The "Mandatory to implement" bit above could address this issue.
> > > If an unrecognized message element is found to have the bit set, then
> > > the whole message needs to be rejected. If the bit is not set, the
> > > message element may be safely ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > 5) The config has a concept of "default value" for each configuration
> > > attribute. However, the default values are not clearly specified. This
> > > needs to be resolved to be able to support "default values".
> > >
> > > <PRC> Another good point raised by David.
> > >
> > >
> > > 6) the documentation of which "binding specific" message elements are
> > > to
> > > be included with CAPWAP messages is not consistent, and is difficult
> > > to
> > > follow.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Has this been addressed in the latest (-02) document?
> > >
> > >
> > > 7) There are some message elements that cause "actions". This approach
> > > to protocol design is problematic and should be eliminated.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Could you be more specific as well as provide guidance on what
> > > you
> > > would like to see?
> > >
> > >
> > > 8) The message types are inconsistently named, and do not follow the
> > > conventions of well designed protocols. Can the operations be named
> > > consistently with the following terminology:
> > >   1) request/response (used to get/set/perform action)
> > >   2) report/ack (use to tell the other side something)
> > >
> > > <PRC> Could you provide your thoughts on which messages fall within
> > > which one of your categories?
> > >
> > >
> > > 9) Many of the configuration items, and status items are not listed in
> > > one section with definitions. (Well make it two sections - one for
> > > CAPWAP and the other which is "binding" specific.) For example, not
> > > all
> > > of the time period lengths are identified and specified in section 4.5
> > > .
> > >
> > > <PRC> Unfortunately, the document has gone back and forth a few times
> > > and before we opt to change the structure of the document, I'd like to
> > >
> > > ensure that we have broad agreement on what we want - with the
> > > understanding that we will never make everyone happy.
> > >
> > >
> > > 10) each operation should have listed in which states it can be sent
> > > and
> > > received
> > >
> > > <PRC> I do not understand your comment.
> > >
> > >
> > > 11) All strings, such as WTP location, should be changed from US-ASCII
> > > encoding to UTF-8 encoding.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Agreed.
> > >
> > > 12) The term "mobile" is not really accurate when describing wireless
> > > interfaces, since wireless does not imply      mobile. Can we just use
> > > the techie term "STA" instead.
> > >
> > > <PRC> I agree we should use the term Station, or STA for short.
> > >
> > >
> > > 13) The WTP Descriptor message element contains too much information,
> > > lacks clarity on the WTP encryption field and includes version
> > > numbers,
> > > which should be in string form.
> > >
> > > <PRC> To the first point, I disagree. I think there is value in
> > > knowing
> > > everything about the WTP. The AC vendors can expose whatever
> > > information
> > > they want, but I don't believe anything is unnecessary.
> > >
> > > <PRC> To the second point, this is one of those areas where the
> > > concept
> > > of the technology binding creates complexity. Given that we cannot
> > > simply discuss 802.11i at this point, the only thing we can do is punt
> > > to another section in the technology binding section. That said, I
> > > agree
> > > with Dave that the 802.11 binding section is too light in this area.
> > > However, I would much prefer that instead of trying to address this
> > > specific issue, we discuss whether we should even be supporting the
> > > mode
> > > of operation where 802.11i is performed in the AC - especially with
> > > the
> > > introduction of DTLS to secure the data plane. Right now, it just
> > > feels
> > > like we have too many options and I am worried that interoperability
> > > will be severely impacted (not to mention protocol complexity).
> > >
> > > <PRC> To the last point, I have no issues with including text stating
> > > that the version numbers should be in string form.
> > >
> > >
> > > 14) The WTP Descriptor information is not required at Join time.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Well, as far as I can tell, I think there's value in knowing
> > > whether the WTP can even be supported by the AC. So the more info is
> > > provided by the WTP, the better the AC can determine whether it should
> > > just ignore the WTP or not. This could be done because it knows that
> > > the
> > > firmware running on the WTP is not compatible, and it has no new
> > > firmware to download.
> > >
> > >
> > > 15) Are the values in the WTP Frame Encryption a capabilities bit, or
> > > an
> > > enum?
> > >
> > > <PRC> Looks like an enum to me. Not sure what Dave would prefer the
> > > text
> > > to read. There are various other similar comments throughout, which I
> > > will not repeat here.
> > >
> > >
> > > 16) The Discovery Response is broken. The AC SHOULD NOT be providing
> > > any
> > > info to a WTP (or something that claims to be a WTP). Also, the AC
> > > should tell the WTP what to do next, with choices: 1) Ok to try to
> > > join,
> > > 2) don't try to join, 3) try                     discover on a list of
> > > returned ACs)
> > >
> > > <PRC> I don't believe there is an issue with sending the AC's
> > > information to the WTP, but would solicit input from the list. That
> > > said, some of the information in the AC Descriptor is required, such
> > > as
> > > the current load on the AC. No point is trying to join if he AC
> > > indicates it's already at max capacity.
> > > <PRC> I believe if the AC does not return the response, then it
> > > implies
> > > (2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is handled during the join or configure
> > > process, which I believe is right.
> > >
> > >
> > > 17) Is AC Name text?
> > >
> > > <PRC> Yes, and same with WTP Name.
> > >
> > >
> > > 18) Primary Discovery are not required.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Disagree. Required for failover.
> > >
> > >
> > > 19) The text does not make it clear that the contents of the WTP
> > > Location is informative only, and as Dave calls it, a "scratchpad".
> > >
> > > <PRC> Well, to be honest, I thought the example "next to the fridge"
> > > made it clear that the information did not derive from any scientific
> > > formula. The description also states this is a user-defined. I believe
> > > this should be good enough.
> > >
> > >
> > > 20) Session is not required
> > >
> > > <PRC> I believe you may be correct that with the transition to DTLS,
> > > this is no longer required.
> > >
> > >
> > > 21) need to send "common name" as found in the WTP CERT so that the AC
> > > can verify
> > >
> > > <PRC> The protocol currently relies on the MAC address being the key
> > > that binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't see a need to change
> > > this.
> > >
> > >
> > > 22) Result code in Join Response is not sufficient, for instance WTP
> > > HW
> > > not supported.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Well, the protocol does not require this because the Discovery
> > > Response would never be sent (as the protocol stands today).
> > >
> > >
> > > 23) AC IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering, which is unnecessary.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Agreed.
> > >
> > >
> > > 24) Change Echo to Keepalive or heartbeat.
> > >
> > > <PRC> I call it potato....
> > >
> > >
> > > 25) What if all of the message elements do not fit within a single
> > > CAPWAP control frame.
> > >
> > > <PRC> We should address this.
> > >
> > >
> > > 26) AC Name with Index is all messed up...
> > >
> > > <PRC> Not really. You simply include more than one, and the index
> > > field
> > > is clearly the priority. Don't understand the Multi-AC comment. No
> > > inter-AC protocol implied here.
> > >
> > >
> > > 27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not configure.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Agreed, but wonder even more why we are duplicating this
> > > information across both the WTP Descriptor and the WTP Board Data
> > > message elements.
> > >
> > >
> > > 28) The WTP Static IPv4 Address should not have the Static bit, but
> > > instead state that 0.0.0.0 means a static address is not to be used.
> > >
> > > <PRC> I don't have an issue with this request, but in the end we have
> > > the same function. The reason why I state this is that we can refine
> > > this protocol until the cows come home, and at one point we need to
> > > draw
> > > a line in the sand.
> > >
> > >
> > > 29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed
> > > are not clear enough.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the
> > > configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can
> > > clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value.
> > >
> > >
> > > 30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's BSSID
> > > field should be an array.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Disagree.
> > >
> > >
> > > 30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's Country
> > > Code is not clear enough.
> > >
> > > <PRC> The text points to the actual MIB element in the 802.11-1999
> > > standard, which very clearly defines the contents of the field. I
> > > don't
> > > think there's value in replicating the format of this field in the
> > > CAPWAP standard.
> > >
> > >
> > > 31) There seems like an awful lot of additional configuration message
> > > elements that need to be specified here!
> > >
> > > <PRC> Having built a protocol based on this, it's not clear to me
> > > what's
> > > missing. I think it would be useful if you provided concrete details
> > > on
> > > what's missing.
> > >
> > >
> > > 32) Configuration Status is just plain broken because any
> > > configuration
> > > change operation may fail and there is no           response to the
> > > configuration changes specified in this command.
> > >
> > > <PRC> There certainly is - I guess I don't understand the concern.
> > >
> > >
> > > 33) Use of Change State Event should instead be Radio Admin State.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Perhaps the two are not described properly. The first is used by
> > >
> > > the WTP to inform the AC that something has occurred with a radio. The
> > > second is used by the AC to enable/disable a radio.
> > >
> > >
> > > 34) Report Timer needs to be in section 4.5 or 11
> > >
> > > <PRC> ok
> > >
> > >
> > > 35) Should Idle Timeout be per radio, or per WTP, and should the value
> > > be defined in section 4.5 or 11.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine as it is.
> > >
> > >
> > > 36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and should be removed.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Disagree. I believe it is necessary to create enough resiliency
> > > in
> > > the protocol/service.
> > >
> > >
> > > 37) How are the "Rate Set" and "Supported Rates" encoded.
> > >
> > > <PRC> This was fixed in the -02
> > >
> > >
> > > 38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the configuration, but instead in
> > > the
> > > join.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Not sure this really matters....
> > >
> > >
> > > 39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so strange and is being managed like
> > > no
> > > other configuration data.
> > >
> > > <PRC> I do not understand the comment
> > >
> > >
> > > 40) Decryption Error Report Period is not defined in section 4.5 or 11
> > >
> > > <PRC> ok, and note that the information has been moved to the IEEE
> > > 802.11 RSNA Error Report From Mobile
> > >
> > >
> > > 41) Configuration Update Response. today, there are primarily two
> > > types
> > > of configuration models. The first is when config is changed, it is
> > > only
> > > changed in the volatile copy (the memory or running). An explicit
> > > command is needed to save the config to nonvolatile storage. The
> > > second
> > > model has config both running (volatile) and saved (nonvolatile)
> > > config
> > > changed when a config change is made. And there might be a special
> > > command to have a config change apply to only one. In this case, there
> > > is no need for a "save config to nonvolatile" command. It is not clear
> > > what is suppose to be supported here in CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP
> > > support devices with no or very limited nonvolatile storage for
> > > config!
> > >
> > > <PRC> CAPWAP does not support WTPs with no nonvolatile storage. The
> > > protocol has the AC push configs to the WTP, which saves them at the
> > > time they are received. I do not believe anything else is required.
> > >
> > >
> > > 42) Configuration Update Response includes the Result Code message
> > > element, which includes values that do not appear to be relevant for
> > > this message, and there are plenty of other failure cases
> > >
> > > <PRC> ok, but note that we are sharing a common message element. Any
> > > suggestions on how to address your issue?
> > >
> > >
> > > 43) Change State Event Report. This seems a little silly to be sent in
> > >
> > > the "configure" state. It seems only appropriate for the "run" state.
> > > Some might argue that even in the "run" state it shouldn't be sent
> > > after
> > > a "config update" request that changes the operational state. However,
> > >
> > > in the "run" state, it may take a while to have the operational state
> > > change to follow the admin state. Thus, I think it is OK in the "run"
> > > state after config changes."
> > >
> > > <PRC> I believe this was addressed in -02.
> > >
> > >
> > > 44) Clear Config Request. this operation has several problems, which
> > > include:
> > >    1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec says that this can only be done in
> > > the "run" state. This is silly. It should also be possible in the
> > > "configure" state.
> > > <PRC> I wonder why the AC would even consider clearing the WTP's state
> > > before it even knows how it is configured.
> > >
> > >    2) the value of "manufacturing defaults" is not defined, and a poor
> > >
> > > term to use, since it implies that that each manufacturer can have
> > > different values. If so, then the AC will have no knowledge of the
> > > config on the WTP! The problem of "default config values" has already
> > > be
> > > mentioned above. After each config attribute has been defined with a
> > > default value, then the proper term would be "CAPWAP config defaults".
> > > <PRC> Yes, you've raised this point already, and I agree that it does
> > > need to be addressed.
> > >
> > >    3) This operation is not defined to have a response. This is
> > > broken,
> > > since any config change can fail. Also, it is not defined what happens
> > > next. Does this cause the WTP to reboot an start a "clean discovery"?
> > > <PRC> This was addressed in -02
> > >
> > >
> > > 45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are actually three different "Image
> > > Data Request" messages. Which one is determined          by which of
> > > the
> > > three message elements is contained. This is completely silly! There
> > > should be three separate operations! Additionally, how does the WTP
> > > know
> > > which image to get? The AC should be making that decision.
> > >
> > > <PRC> I believe the WTP is the only device that knows what it's
> > > filename
> > > should be. Why would an AC vendor know about file naming conventions
> > > used by the WTP vendors? I believe your other issues are discussed in
> > > the next items.
> > >
> > >
> > > 46) Image Data Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There
> > >
> > > needs to be message element that indicates the          result.
> > >
> > > <PRC> How so? This is only used to send firmware to the WTP. Not clear
> > > what could fail... Reading the image from flash?
> > >
> > >
> > > 47) Image Data Request. when starting over again at the WTP start
> > > state,
> > > the WTP shouldn't use the "normal" discovery process, but instead
> > > "fast
> > > track" a connection back to the AC that just downloaded the image.
> > > With
> > > a little more          work, we could probably figure out a way to
> > > reuse
> > > the old DTLS session.
> > >
> > > <PRC> To what gain? What is so expensive about the discovery, and what
> > > happened if the AC was not longer reachable?
> > >
> > >
> > > 48) opcode - if this is here, might as well also have a value that
> > > indicates last block of the image file, instead of looking at the
> > > block
> > > size.
> > >
> > > <PRC> But we're just changing for the sake of changing - the protocol
> > > works as-is.
> > >
> > >
> > > 49) since this operation does not have the block number as a
> > > parameter,
> > > the WTP must determine the block number via the CAPWAP message header
> > > sequence number.  NOTE: DTLS does not provide in-order delivery of
> > > packets. Also, this requires the WTP to remember state. This message
> > > element should be re-engineered to have the following subfields:
> > > [edited]
> > >
> > > <PRC> The control header includes a sequence number, and while we can
> > > change the current protocol to match your recommendations, the
> > > protocol
> > > does work. If it ain't broken...
> > >
> > >
> > > 50) Image Data Response. this is silly. This operation can fail!  For
> > > example, the WTP can run out of space to store          the block, or
> > > there could be a failure in writing the block to storage. (Or as
> > > "Image
> > > Data Request"(9.1a) is presently specified, the checksum match could
> > > fail.) There needs to be message element that indicates the result.)
> > > Note: don't need a block number field, since request and responses are
> > > paired.
> > >
> > > <PRC> We can include a result code
> > >
> > >
> > > 51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief
> > >
> > > <PRC> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-). Seriously, the
> > > protocol
> > > does work, so what exactly are you looking for?
> > >
> > >
> > > 52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This operation can fail! There
> > > needs to be message element that indicates the          result.
> > >
> > > <PRC> See above comment.
> > >
> > > 53) Reset Request. ...
> > >
> > > <PRC> The comment is irrelevant now that Clear Config has changed.
> > >
> > >
> > > 54) Reset Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There
> > > needs
> > > to be message element that indicates the          result.
> > >
> > > <PRC> I sense a trend. I will stop including these messages from now
> > > on.
> > >
> > >
> > > 55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this reported if the condition
> > > remains?
> > >
> > > <PRC> Only required once, I think, but we may want to include some
> > > text
> > > covering that.
> > >
> > >
> > > 56) the list of events seems understated!
> > >
> > > <PRC> Text and conditions please
> > >
> > >
> > > 57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have - remove.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Disagree. Providing diagnostics capabilities is required.
> > >
> > >
> > > 58) Mobile Config Request. the actual details of how this works on
> > > both
> > > splitMAC and especially localMAC are not well specified. That is, only
> > > the figures and text in sections 11.1.1 and 11.1.2 provide any clue as
> > > to events that would cause an AC to send this message type. Also,
> > > there
> > > are restrictions on combinations of parameters that can be included in
> > > the message.
> > >
> > > <PRC> I wonder whether other folks agree that more details are
> > > required.
> > >
> > >
> > > 59) it doesn't say if one message can be used to update more than one
> > > STA. It should be able.
> > >
> > > <PRC> No, otherwise you end up with the problem of associating
> > > specific
> > > message elements with a given mobile. One mobile per request.
> > >
> > >
> > > 60) IEEE 802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC address be included so
> > > this message element can be matched with a (4.4.8)Add Mobile message
> > > element?
> > >
> > > <PRC> I believe this is to your previous point, but the protocol
> > > assumes
> > > one mobile per request.
> > >
> > >
> > > 61) IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for data traffic to the AC?
> > > If
> > > so, then why is this an 802.11 message element
> > >
> > > <PRC> Intended to be a way to push policies to the WTP to prioritize
> > > mobile traffic.
> > >
> > >
> > > 62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why is a new message type that is
> > > 802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11 WLANs? It seems like the
> > > existing "(8.4)Configuration Update Request" message could be used.
> > >
> > > <PRC> To be more specific only.
> > >
> > >
> > > 63) note here there are information elements to create, delete, and
> > > modify WLANs. However, for message type "(10.1)Mobile Config Request",
> > > there is only add and delete (and the "add" used to modify).
> > >
> > > <PRC> Correct. The protocol requires the AC to resend a new add with a
> > > different policy. No specific reason, but if this is deemed
> > > inconsistent, we could change it.
> > >
> > >
> > > 64) IEEE 802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping of WLAN IDs to BSSIDs
> > > seems like it needs a little more work
> > >
> > > <PRC> What exactly would you like to see?
> > >
> > >
> > > Pat Calhoun
> > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> > > Cisco Systems
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: David T. Perkins [mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 4:31 PM
> > > > To: capwap@frascone.com
> > > > Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations
> > > >
> > > > HI,
> > > >
> > > > I've attached a long file that summarizes the operations in
> > > > CAPWAP-01.
> > > >
> > > > Enjoy,
> > > > /david t. perkins
> > > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> > >
> > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> > >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> >
> >
>

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Pat,<br>
<br>
In the current draft, the AC has no indication of the stability of the <br>
WTP before it accepts the Join Request. The value for adding<br>
WTP Reboot statistics to the Join Request is&nbsp; to provide the reboot statistics, <br>
if they are available.<br>
<br>
There seemed to be three options to addressing this comment:<br>
1) Reject the comment, no change to the draft.<br>
2) Provide the option for the WTP to send the Reboot statistics to the AC in the Join Request<br>
3) Require the WTP to send the Reboot <a href="http://statistics.to">statistics.to</a> the AC in the Join Request<br>
<br>
I proposed option 2, allowing the WTP to provide them if available. This option<br>
seems to allow for your stated preference.<br>
<br>
Dorothy<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/9/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com">pcalhoun@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">




<div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">I 
personally prefer to start maintaining configuration and status state on the WTP 
after the join is complete. Is there a problem that arises with the current 
draft? Is this just a personal preference, or is there a 
bug?</font></span></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<p align="left"><font size="2">Pat Calhoun<br>CTO, Wireless Networking Business 
Unit<br>Cisco Systems</font></p>
<div>&nbsp;</div><br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
  <div align="left" dir="ltr" lang="en-us">
  <hr>
  <font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> Dorothy Stanley 
  [mailto:<a href="mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dstanley1389@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 29, 2006 
  2:22 PM<br><b>To:</b> Michael Montemurro<br><b>Cc:</b> 
  <a href="mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b>  [Capwap] Proposed resolution to <span id="st" name="st" class="st">
Issue</span> 
  <span id="st" name="st" class="st">177</span> WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01 
  operations<br></font><br></div>
  <div></div>
  <div>All,</div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><span id="st" name="st" class="st">Issue</span> <span id="st" name="st" class="st">177</span>, &quot;WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join&quot;</div>
  <div>is listed below:</div><pre><em>29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed<br>are not clear enough.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the<br>configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can
<br>clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value.</em></pre>
  <div>Believing that there may be times when it is desirable for the 
  WTP&nbsp;to provide </div>
  <div>information to the AC about its stability, the proposed resolution to 
  <span id="st" name="st" class="st">Issue</span> <span id="st" name="st" class="st">177</span> is <br>to insert the following text at the end of</div>
  <div>Section 6.1 &quot;Join Request&quot;:</div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div>The following message element may be included in the Join Request 
  message:</div>
  <div>- WTP Reboot Statistics, see Section 4.4.44.</div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div>Comments please,</div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div>Thanks,</div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div>Dorothy<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><span class="gmail_quote">On 6/30/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Michael 
  Montemurro</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">montemurro.michael@gmail.com</a>&gt; 
  wrote:</span> 
  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
    <div>David, Pat,</div>
    <div>&nbsp;</div>
    <div>I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points <span name="st">in</span> David's email. Happy hunting!</div>
    <div>&nbsp;</div>
    <div>Mike<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
    <div><span>
    <div><span class="gmail_quote">On 6/27/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Pat 
    Calhoun (pacalhou)</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">pcalhoun@cisco.com </a>&gt; 
    wrote:</span> 
    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Going 
      through David's lengthy document, he has raised an interesting<br>number 
      of points that I believe require issues to be created. At one <br>point 
      I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in order to be brief, and<br>introducing 
      my own numbering scheme.<br><br>1) Can message elements be in any order? 
      (I believe they should be)<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes, and I suspect we need 
      to include text to make it more <br>obvious.<br><br><br>2) Are all 
      specified message elements required? (The obvious answer is<br>&quot;yes&quot;, but 
      this document doesn't discuss versioning. For example, what<br>if in a new 
      version of CAPWAP an additional message element was to be <br>added. Would 
      a new message type be created and the additional message<br>element added 
      to it, or the existing type reused?)<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; This is a great 
      question, and one that does need to be addressed<br>in the spec. In the 
      Diameter protocol we dealt with this <span id="st" name="st" class="st">issue</span> by <br>including a &quot;Mandatory 
      to implement&quot; bit. If any AVP was received, whose<br>bit was set, yet was 
      not recognized, then the request had to be<br>rejected.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
      We could consider something similar here, but I believe with the 
      <br>firmware download component of the protocol it may be less of an <span id="st" name="st" class="st">issue</span> 
      -<br>although not guaranteed. I would hope (and expect) that as the 
      CAPWAP<br>protocol extends, the AC would push new firmware to the WTP. 
      This does <br>require that the initial part of the state machine be fairly 
      static, and<br>this could be an area where the &quot;Mandatory to implement&quot; 
      bit could be<br>useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to older 
      protocol behavior. <br><br>3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of 
      indicating which message elements<br>can be repeated.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
      Another good point. When we list the message elements, we should<br>note 
      whether the frequently is 0-1 (meaning absent or once), 1 (only <br>once) 
      or 0+ (meaning any number of them could be present.<br><br><br>4) Can 
      &quot;additional&quot; message elements be added to a message? (I believe<br>so for 
      reporting capabilities, statistics, and&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; events. 
      For<br>configuration, there is nothing in the protocol that says what 
      happens<br>when one end gets an configuration&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
      element it doesn't know about.<br>Should it be ignored, and the other 
      elements processed, or should the<br>complete 
      operation&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; failed?) <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; The 
      &quot;Mandatory to implement&quot; bit above could address this <span id="st" name="st" class="st">issue</span>.<br>If an 
      unrecognized message element is found to have the bit set, then<br>the 
      whole message needs to be rejected. If the bit is not set, the <br>message 
      element may be safely ignored.<br><br><br>5) The config has a concept of 
      &quot;default value&quot; for each configuration<br>attribute. However, the default 
      values are not clearly specified. This<br>needs to be resolved to be able 
      to support &quot;default values&quot;. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Another good point raised 
      by David.<br><br><br>6) the documentation of which &quot;binding specific&quot; 
      message elements are to<br>be included with CAPWAP messages is not 
      consistent, and is difficult to <br>follow.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Has this 
      been addressed in the latest (-02) document?<br><br><br>7) There are some 
      message elements that cause &quot;actions&quot;. This approach<br>to protocol design 
      is problematic and should be eliminated. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Could you be 
      more specific as well as provide guidance on what you<br>would like to 
      see?<br><br><br>8) The message types are inconsistently named, and do not 
      follow the<br>conventions of well designed protocols. Can the operations 
      be named <br>consistently with the following 
      terminology:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;1) request/response (used to get/set/perform 
      action)<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;2) report/ack (use to tell the other side 
      something)<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Could you provide your thoughts on which 
      messages fall within <br>which one of your categories?<br><br><br>9) Many 
      of the configuration items, and status items are not listed in<br>one 
      section with definitions. (Well make it two sections - one for<br>CAPWAP 
      and the other which is &quot;binding&quot; specific.) For example, not all <br>of 
      the time period lengths are identified and specified in section 
      4.5.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Unfortunately, the document has gone back and 
      forth a few times<br>and before we opt to change the structure of the 
      document, I'd like to <br>ensure that we have broad agreement on what we 
      want - with the<br>understanding that we will never make everyone 
      happy.<br><br><br>10) each operation should have listed in which states it 
      can be sent and<br>received<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I do not understand your 
      comment.<br><br><br>11) All strings, such as WTP location, should be 
      changed from US-ASCII<br>encoding to UTF-8 encoding.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
      Agreed.<br><br>12) The term &quot;mobile&quot; is not really accurate when 
      describing wireless <br>interfaces, since wireless does not 
      imply&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;mobile. Can we just use<br>the 
      techie term &quot;STA&quot; instead.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I agree we should use the 
      term Station, or STA for short.<br><br><br>13) The WTP Descriptor message 
      element contains too much information, <br>lacks clarity on the WTP 
      encryption field and includes version numbers,<br>which should be in 
      string form.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; To the first point, I disagree. I think 
      there is value in knowing<br>everything about the WTP. The AC vendors can 
      expose whatever information <br>they want, but I don't believe anything is 
      unnecessary.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; To the second point, this is one of those 
      areas where the concept<br>of the technology binding creates complexity. 
      Given that we cannot<br>simply discuss 802.11i at this point, the only 
      thing we can do is punt<br>to another section in the technology binding 
      section. That said, I agree<br>with Dave that the 802.11 binding section 
      is too light in this area.<br>However, I would much prefer that instead of 
      trying to address this <br>specific <span id="st" name="st" class="st">issue</span>, we discuss whether we should 
      even be supporting the mode<br>of operation where 802.11i is performed in 
      the AC - especially with the<br>introduction of DTLS to secure the data 
      plane. Right now, it just feels <br>like we have too many options and I am 
      worried that interoperability<br>will be severely impacted (not to mention 
      protocol complexity).<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; To the last point, I have no 
      issues with including text stating <br>that the version numbers should be 
      in string form.<br><br><br>14) The WTP Descriptor information is not 
      required at Join time.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Well, as far as I can tell, I 
      think there's value in knowing<br>whether the WTP can even be supported by 
      the AC. So the more info is <br>provided by the WTP, the better the AC can 
      determine whether it should<br>just ignore the WTP or not. This could be 
      done because it knows that the<br>firmware running on the WTP is not 
      compatible, and it has no new<br>firmware to download.<br><br><br>15) Are 
      the values in the WTP Frame Encryption a capabilities bit, or 
      an<br>enum?<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Looks like an enum to me. Not sure what 
      Dave would prefer the text<br>to read. There are various other similar 
      comments throughout, which I <br>will not repeat here.<br><br><br>16) The 
      Discovery Response is broken. The AC SHOULD NOT be providing any<br>info 
      to a WTP (or something that claims to be a WTP). Also, the AC<br>should 
      tell the WTP what to do next, with choices: 1) Ok to try to join, <br>2)
don't try to join, 3)
try&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
discover on a list of<br>returned ACs)<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I don't believe 
      there is an <span id="st" name="st" class="st">issue</span> with sending the AC's<br>information to the WTP, but 
      would solicit input from the list. That <br>said, some of the information 
      in the AC Descriptor is required, such as<br>the current load on the AC. 
      No point is trying to join if he AC<br>indicates it's already at max 
      capacity.<br>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe if the AC does not return the response, 
      then it implies <br>(2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is handled during the 
      join or configure<br>process, which I believe is right.<br><br><br>17) Is 
      AC Name text?<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes, and same with WTP 
      Name.<br><br><br>18) Primary Discovery are not required. 
      <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. Required for failover.<br><br><br>19) The 
      text does not make it clear that the contents of the WTP<br>Location is 
      informative only, and as Dave calls it, a &quot;scratchpad&quot;.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
      Well, to be honest, I thought the example &quot;next to the fridge&quot; <br>made it 
      clear that the information did not derive from any scientific<br>formula. 
      The description also states this is a user-defined. I believe<br>this 
      should be good enough.<br><br><br>20) Session is not 
      required<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe you may be correct that with the 
      transition to DTLS,<br>this is no longer required.<br><br><br>21) need to 
      send &quot;common name&quot; as found in the WTP CERT so that the AC<br>can 
      verify<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; The protocol currently relies on the MAC address 
      being the key<br>that binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't see a need 
      to change<br>this.<br><br><br>22) Result code in Join Response is not 
      sufficient, for instance WTP HW <br>not supported.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
      Well, the protocol does not require this because the Discovery<br>Response 
      would never be sent (as the protocol stands today).<br><br><br>23) AC 
      IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering, which is unnecessary. 
      <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Agreed.<br><br><br>24) Change Echo to Keepalive or 
      heartbeat.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I call it potato....<br><br><br>25) What if 
      all of the message elements do not fit within a single<br>CAPWAP control 
      frame. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; We should address this.<br><br><br>26) AC Name 
      with Index is all messed up...<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Not really. You simply 
      include more than one, and the index field<br>is clearly the priority. 
      Don't understand the Multi-AC comment. No <br>inter-AC protocol implied 
      here.<br><br><br>27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not 
      configure.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Agreed, but wonder even more why we are 
      duplicating this<br>information across both the WTP Descriptor and the WTP 
      Board Data <br>message elements.<br><br><br>28) The WTP Static IPv4 
      Address should not have the Static bit, but<br>instead state that <a href="http://0.0.0.0/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">0.0.0.0 </a>means a static address is 
      not to be used.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I don't have an <span id="st" name="st" class="st">issue</span> with this 
      request, but in the end we have <br>the same function. The reason why I 
      state this is that we can refine<br>this protocol until the cows come 
      home, and at one point we need to draw <br>a line in the 
      sand.<br><br><br>29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the 
      reasons listed <br>are not clear enough.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Doesn't really 
      matter whether this is included in the<br>configuration or the join, but 
      if the WG agrees to move it. We can <br>clarify some of the reasons, as 
      long as it provides value. <br><br><br>30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio 
      Configuration message element's BSSID<br>field should be an 
      array.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree.<br><br><br>30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP 
      Radio Configuration message element's Country<br>Code is not clear 
      enough.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; The text points to the actual MIB element in 
      the 802.11-1999<br>standard, which very clearly defines the contents of 
      the field. I don't <br>think there's value in replicating the format of 
      this field in the <br>CAPWAP standard.<br><br><br>31) There seems like an 
      awful lot of additional configuration message<br>elements that need to be 
      specified here!<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Having built a protocol based on this, 
      it's not clear to me what's <br>missing. I think it would be useful if you 
      provided concrete details on<br>what's missing.<br><br><br>32) 
      Configuration Status is just plain broken because any configuration 
      <br>change operation may fail and there is 
      no&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; response to 
      the <br>configuration changes specified in this 
      command.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; There certainly is - I guess I don't 
      understand the concern.<br><br><br>33) Use of Change State Event should 
      instead be Radio Admin State. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Perhaps the two are not 
      described properly. The first is used by <br>the WTP to inform the AC that 
      something has occurred with a radio. The<br>second is used by the AC to 
      enable/disable a radio.<br><br><br>34) Report Timer needs to be in section 
      4.5 or 11<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; ok<br><br><br>35) Should Idle Timeout be per 
      radio, or per WTP, and should the value<br>be defined in section 4.5 or 
      11.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine as it is. 
      <br><br><br>36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and should be removed. 
      <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. I believe it is necessary to create enough 
      resiliency in<br>the protocol/service.<br><br><br>37) How are the &quot;Rate 
      Set&quot; and &quot;Supported Rates&quot; encoded. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; This was fixed in 
      the -02 <br><br><br>38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the configuration, 
      but instead in the<br>join.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Not sure this really 
      matters....<br><br><br>39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so strange and is 
      being managed like no <br>other configuration data.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I 
      do not understand the comment<br><br><br>40) Decryption Error Report 
      Period is not defined in section 4.5 or 11<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; ok, and note 
      that the information has been moved to the IEEE <br>802.11 RSNA Error 
      Report From Mobile<br><br><br>41) Configuration Update Response. today, 
      there are primarily two types<br>of configuration models. The first is 
      when config is changed, it is only<br>changed in the volatile copy (the 
      memory or running). An explicit <br>command is needed to save the config 
      to nonvolatile storage. The second<br>model has config both running 
      (volatile) and saved (nonvolatile) config<br>changed when a config change 
      is made. And there might be a special<br>command to have a config change 
      apply to only one. In this case, there<br>is no need for a &quot;save config to 
      nonvolatile&quot; command. It is not clear<br>what is suppose to be supported 
      here in CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP <br>support devices with no or very 
      limited nonvolatile storage for config!<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; CAPWAP does not 
      support WTPs with no nonvolatile storage. The<br>protocol has the AC push 
      configs to the WTP, which saves them at the <br>time they are received. I 
      do not believe anything else is required.<br><br><br>42) Configuration 
      Update Response includes the Result Code message<br>element, which 
      includes values that do not appear to be relevant for <br>this message, 
      and there are plenty of other failure cases<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; ok, but 
      note that we are sharing a common message element. Any<br>suggestions on 
      how to address your <span id="st" name="st" class="st">issue</span>?<br><br><br>43) Change State Event Report. This 
      seems a little silly to be sent in <br>the &quot;configure&quot; state. It seems 
      only appropriate for the &quot;run&quot; state.<br>Some might argue that even in the 
      &quot;run&quot; state it shouldn't be sent after<br>a &quot;config update&quot; request that 
      changes the operational state. However, <br>in the &quot;run&quot; state, it may 
      take a while to have the operational state<br>change to follow the admin 
      state. Thus, I think it is OK in the &quot;run&quot;<br>state after config 
      changes.&quot;<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe this was addressed in -02. 
      <br><br><br>44) Clear Config Request. this operation has several problems, 
      which<br>include:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec says 
      that this can only be done in<br>the &quot;run&quot; state. This is silly. It should 
      also be possible in the <br>&quot;configure&quot; state.<br>&lt;PRC&gt; I wonder why 
      the AC would even consider clearing the WTP's state<br>before it even 
      knows how it is configured.<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; 2) the value of 
      &quot;manufacturing defaults&quot; is not defined, and a poor <br>term to use, since 
      it implies that that each manufacturer can have<br>different values. If 
      so, then the AC will have no knowledge of the<br>config on the WTP! The 
      problem of &quot;default config values&quot; has already be <br>mentioned above. 
      After each config attribute has been defined with a<br>default value, then 
      the proper term would be &quot;CAPWAP config defaults&quot;.<br>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes, 
      you've raised this point already, and I agree that it does <br>need to be 
      addressed.<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; 3) This operation is not defined to have a 
      response. This is broken,<br>since any config change can fail. Also, it is 
      not defined what happens<br>next. Does this cause the WTP to reboot an 
      start a &quot;clean discovery&quot;? <br>&lt;PRC&gt; This was addressed in 
      -02<br><br><br>45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are actually three 
      different &quot;Image<br>Data Request&quot; messages. Which one is 
      determined&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;by 
      which of the<br>three message elements is contained. This is completely 
      silly! There <br>should be three separate operations! Additionally, how 
      does the WTP know<br>which image to get? The AC should be making that 
      decision.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe the WTP is the only device that 
      knows what it's filename <br>should be. Why would an AC vendor know about 
      file naming conventions<br>used by the WTP vendors? I believe your other 
      issues are discussed in<br>the next items.<br><br><br>46) Image Data 
      Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There <br>needs to be 
      message element that indicates 
      the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
      How so? This is only used to send firmware to the WTP. Not clear<br>what 
      could fail... Reading the image from flash?<br><br><br>47) Image Data 
      Request. when starting over again at the WTP start state, <br>the WTP 
      shouldn't use the &quot;normal&quot; discovery process, but instead &quot;fast<br>track&quot; 
      a connection back to the AC that just downloaded the image. With<br>a 
      little 
      more&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;work, we 
      could probably figure out a way to reuse <br>the old DTLS 
      session.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; To what gain? What is so expensive about the 
      discovery, and what<br>happened if the AC was not longer 
      reachable?<br><br><br>48) opcode - if this is here, might as well also 
      have a value that <br>indicates last block of the image file, instead of 
      looking at the block<br>size.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; But we're just changing 
      for the sake of changing - the protocol<br>works as-is.<br><br><br>49) 
      since this operation does not have the block number as a parameter, 
      <br>the WTP must determine the block number via the CAPWAP message 
      header<br>sequence number.&nbsp;&nbsp;NOTE: DTLS does not provide in-order 
      delivery of<br>packets. Also, this requires the WTP to remember state. 
      This message<br>element should be re-engineered to have the following 
      subfields: <br>[edited]<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; The control header includes a 
      sequence number, and while we can<br>change the current protocol to match 
      your recommendations, the protocol<br>does work. If it ain't 
      broken...<br><br><br>50) Image Data Response. this is silly. This 
      operation can fail!&nbsp;&nbsp;For <br>example, the WTP can run out of 
      space to 
      store&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the 
      block, or<br>there could be a failure in writing the block to storage. (Or 
      as &quot;Image<br>Data Request&quot;(9.1a) is presently specified, the checksum 
      match could <br>fail.) There needs to be message element that indicates 
      the result.)<br>Note: don't need a block number field, since request and 
      responses are<br>paired.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; We can include a result 
      code<br><br><br>51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief 
      <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-). Seriously, 
      the protocol<br>does work, so what exactly are you looking 
      for?<br><br><br>52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This operation can 
      fail! There<br>needs to be message element that indicates 
      the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
      See above comment.<br><br>53) Reset Request. ...<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; The 
      comment is irrelevant now that Clear Config has changed.<br><br><br>54) 
      Reset Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There needs<br>to 
      be message element that indicates 
      the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
      I sense a trend. I will stop including these messages from now 
      on.<br><br><br>55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this reported if 
      the condition<br>remains?<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Only required once, I think, 
      but we may want to include some text<br>covering that.<br><br><br>56) the 
      list of events seems understated! <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Text and conditions 
      please<br><br><br>57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have - 
      remove.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. Providing diagnostics capabilities is 
      required.<br><br><br>58) Mobile Config Request. the actual details of how 
      this works on both <br>splitMAC and especially localMAC are not well 
      specified. That is, only<br>the figures and text in sections 11.1.1 and 
      11.1.2 provide any clue as<br>to events that would cause an AC to send 
      this message type. Also, there <br>are restrictions on combinations of 
      parameters that can be included in<br>the message.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I 
      wonder whether other folks agree that more details are 
      required.<br><br><br>59) it doesn't say if one message can be used to 
      update more than one <br>STA. It should be able.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; No, 
      otherwise you end up with the problem of associating specific<br>message 
      elements with a given mobile. One mobile per request.<br><br><br>60) IEEE 
      802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC address be included so <br>this 
      message element can be matched with a (4.4.8)Add Mobile 
      message<br>element?<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe this is to your previous 
      point, but the protocol assumes<br>one mobile per request.<br><br><br>61) 
      IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for data traffic to the AC? 
      If<br>so, then why is this an 802.11 message element<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
      Intended to be a way to push policies to the WTP to prioritize<br>mobile 
      traffic.<br><br><br>62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why is a new 
      message type that is<br>802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11 WLANs? It 
      seems like the<br>existing &quot;(8.4)Configuration Update Request&quot; message 
      could be used.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; To be more specific only. 
      <br><br><br>63) note here there are information elements to create, 
      delete, and<br>modify WLANs. However, for message type &quot;(10.1)Mobile 
      Config Request&quot;,<br>there is only add and delete (and the &quot;add&quot; used to 
      modify). <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Correct. The protocol requires the AC to 
      resend a new add with a<br>different policy. No specific reason, but if 
      this is deemed<br>inconsistent, we could change it.<br><br><br>64) IEEE 
      802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping of WLAN IDs to BSSIDs <br>seems 
      like it needs a little more work<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; What exactly would you 
      like to see?<br><br><br>Pat Calhoun<br>CTO, Wireless Networking Business 
      Unit<br>Cisco Systems<br><br><br><br>&gt; -----Original Message----- 
      <br>&gt; From: David T. Perkins [mailto:<a href="mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dperkins@dsperkins.com</a>]<br>&gt; Sent: Thursday, June 22, 
      2006 4:31 PM <br>&gt; To: <a href="mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com 
      </a><br>&gt; Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01 
      operations<br>&gt;<br>&gt; HI, <br>&gt;<br>&gt; I've attached a long file 
      that summarizes the operations in<br>&gt; CAPWAP-01.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; 
      Enjoy,<br>&gt; /david t. perkins 
      <br>&gt;<br>_________________________________________________________________ 
      <br>To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please 
      visit:<br><a href="http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap 
      </a><br><br>Archives: <a href="http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap</a><br></blockquote></div>
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    unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<br><a href="http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
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Do you anticipate the AC may decide not to allow the join to proceed
because of the reboot statistics? Note that accepting the join is now
rather trivial compared to the actual DTLS session that had to be
established beforehand.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 2:47 PM
	To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
	Cc: Michael Montemurro; capwap@frascone.com
	Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP
Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01
operations
=09
=09
	Pat,
=09
	In the current draft, the AC has no indication of the stability
of the=20
	WTP before it accepts the Join Request. The value for adding
	WTP Reboot statistics to the Join Request is  to provide the
reboot statistics,=20
	if they are available.
=09
	There seemed to be three options to addressing this comment:
	1) Reject the comment, no change to the draft.
	2) Provide the option for the WTP to send the Reboot statistics
to the AC in the Join Request
	3) Require the WTP to send the Reboot statistics.to the AC in
the Join Request
=09
	I proposed option 2, allowing the WTP to provide them if
available. This option
	seems to allow for your stated preference.
=09
	Dorothy
=09
=09
	On 10/9/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com> wrote:=20

		I personally prefer to start maintaining configuration
and status state on the WTP after the join is complete. Is there a
problem that arises with the current draft? Is this just a personal
preference, or is there a bug?
		=20

		Pat Calhoun
		CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
		Cisco Systems

		=20


________________________________

			From: Dorothy Stanley
[mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
			Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:22 PM
			To: Michael Montemurro
			Cc: capwap@frascone.com
			Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue
177 WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on
CAPWAP-01 operations
		=09
		=09
			All,
			=20
			Issue 177, "WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the
Join"
			is listed below:
			29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join,
and the reasons listed
			are not clear enough.
		=09
			<PRC> Doesn't really matter whether this is
included in the
			configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees
to move it. We can
		=09
			clarify some of the reasons, as long as it
provides value.
			Believing that there may be times when it is
desirable for the WTP to provide=20
			information to the AC about its stability, the
proposed resolution to Issue 177 is=20
			to insert the following text at the end of
			Section 6.1 "Join Request":
			=20
			The following message element may be included in
the Join Request message:
			- WTP Reboot Statistics, see Section 4.4.44.
			=20
			Comments please,
			=20
			Thanks,
			=20
			Dorothy
		=09
			=20
			On 6/30/06, Michael Montemurro
<montemurro.michael@gmail.com> wrote:=20

				David, Pat,
				=20
				I created issues 150-198 to deal with
the points in David's email. Happy hunting!
				=20
				Mike
			=09
				=20
			=09
				On 6/27/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
<pcalhoun@cisco.com > wrote:=20

				Going through David's lengthy document,
he has raised an interesting
				number of points that I believe require
issues to be created. At one=20
				point I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments
in order to be brief, and
				introducing my own numbering scheme.
			=09
				1) Can message elements be in any order?
(I believe they should be)
			=09
				<PRC> Yes, and I suspect we need to
include text to make it more=20
				obvious.
			=09
			=09
				2) Are all specified message elements
required? (The obvious answer is
				"yes", but this document doesn't discuss
versioning. For example, what
				if in a new version of CAPWAP an
additional message element was to be=20
				added. Would a new message type be
created and the additional message
				element added to it, or the existing
type reused?)
			=09
				<PRC> This is a great question, and one
that does need to be addressed
				in the spec. In the Diameter protocol we
dealt with this issue by=20
				including a "Mandatory to implement"
bit. If any AVP was received, whose
				bit was set, yet was not recognized,
then the request had to be
				rejected.
			=09
				<PRC> We could consider something
similar here, but I believe with the=20
				firmware download component of the
protocol it may be less of an issue -
				although not guaranteed. I would hope
(and expect) that as the CAPWAP
				protocol extends, the AC would push new
firmware to the WTP. This does=20
				require that the initial part of the
state machine be fairly static, and
				this could be an area where the
"Mandatory to implement" bit could be
				useful as it would allow the AC to fall
back to older protocol behavior.=20
			=09
				3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of
indicating which message elements
				can be repeated.
			=09
				<PRC> Another good point. When we list
the message elements, we should
				note whether the frequently is 0-1
(meaning absent or once), 1 (only=20
				once) or 0+ (meaning any number of them
could be present.
			=09
			=09
				4) Can "additional" message elements be
added to a message? (I believe
				so for reporting capabilities,
statistics, and     events. For
				configuration, there is nothing in the
protocol that says what happens
				when one end gets an configuration
element it doesn't know about.
				Should it be ignored, and the other
elements processed, or should the
				complete operation     failed?)=20
			=09
				<PRC> The "Mandatory to implement" bit
above could address this issue.
				If an unrecognized message element is
found to have the bit set, then
				the whole message needs to be rejected.
If the bit is not set, the=20
				message element may be safely ignored.
			=09
			=09
				5) The config has a concept of "default
value" for each configuration
				attribute. However, the default values
are not clearly specified. This
				needs to be resolved to be able to
support "default values".=20
			=09
				<PRC> Another good point raised by
David.
			=09
			=09
				6) the documentation of which "binding
specific" message elements are to
				be included with CAPWAP messages is not
consistent, and is difficult to=20
				follow.
			=09
				<PRC> Has this been addressed in the
latest (-02) document?
			=09
			=09
				7) There are some message elements that
cause "actions". This approach
				to protocol design is problematic and
should be eliminated.=20
			=09
				<PRC> Could you be more specific as well
as provide guidance on what you
				would like to see?
			=09
			=09
				8) The message types are inconsistently
named, and do not follow the
				conventions of well designed protocols.
Can the operations be named=20
				consistently with the following
terminology:
				  1) request/response (used to
get/set/perform action)
				  2) report/ack (use to tell the other
side something)
			=09
				<PRC> Could you provide your thoughts on
which messages fall within=20
				which one of your categories?
			=09
			=09
				9) Many of the configuration items, and
status items are not listed in
				one section with definitions. (Well make
it two sections - one for
				CAPWAP and the other which is "binding"
specific.) For example, not all=20
				of the time period lengths are
identified and specified in section 4.5.
			=09
				<PRC> Unfortunately, the document has
gone back and forth a few times
				and before we opt to change the
structure of the document, I'd like to=20
				ensure that we have broad agreement on
what we want - with the
				understanding that we will never make
everyone happy.
			=09
			=09
				10) each operation should have listed in
which states it can be sent and
				received
			=09
				<PRC> I do not understand your comment.
			=09
			=09
				11) All strings, such as WTP location,
should be changed from US-ASCII
				encoding to UTF-8 encoding.
			=09
				<PRC> Agreed.
			=09
				12) The term "mobile" is not really
accurate when describing wireless=20
				interfaces, since wireless does not
imply      mobile. Can we just use
				the techie term "STA" instead.
			=09
				<PRC> I agree we should use the term
Station, or STA for short.
			=09
			=09
				13) The WTP Descriptor message element
contains too much information,=20
				lacks clarity on the WTP encryption
field and includes version numbers,
				which should be in string form.
			=09
				<PRC> To the first point, I disagree. I
think there is value in knowing
				everything about the WTP. The AC vendors
can expose whatever information=20
				they want, but I don't believe anything
is unnecessary.
			=09
				<PRC> To the second point, this is one
of those areas where the concept
				of the technology binding creates
complexity. Given that we cannot
				simply discuss 802.11i at this point,
the only thing we can do is punt
				to another section in the technology
binding section. That said, I agree
				with Dave that the 802.11 binding
section is too light in this area.
				However, I would much prefer that
instead of trying to address this=20
				specific issue, we discuss whether we
should even be supporting the mode
				of operation where 802.11i is performed
in the AC - especially with the
				introduction of DTLS to secure the data
plane. Right now, it just feels=20
				like we have too many options and I am
worried that interoperability
				will be severely impacted (not to
mention protocol complexity).
			=09
				<PRC> To the last point, I have no
issues with including text stating=20
				that the version numbers should be in
string form.
			=09
			=09
				14) The WTP Descriptor information is
not required at Join time.
			=09
				<PRC> Well, as far as I can tell, I
think there's value in knowing
				whether the WTP can even be supported by
the AC. So the more info is=20
				provided by the WTP, the better the AC
can determine whether it should
				just ignore the WTP or not. This could
be done because it knows that the
				firmware running on the WTP is not
compatible, and it has no new
				firmware to download.
			=09
			=09
				15) Are the values in the WTP Frame
Encryption a capabilities bit, or an
				enum?
			=09
				<PRC> Looks like an enum to me. Not sure
what Dave would prefer the text
				to read. There are various other similar
comments throughout, which I=20
				will not repeat here.
			=09
			=09
				16) The Discovery Response is broken.
The AC SHOULD NOT be providing any
				info to a WTP (or something that claims
to be a WTP). Also, the AC
				should tell the WTP what to do next,
with choices: 1) Ok to try to join,=20
				2) don't try to join, 3) try
discover on a list of
				returned ACs)
			=09
				<PRC> I don't believe there is an issue
with sending the AC's
				information to the WTP, but would
solicit input from the list. That=20
				said, some of the information in the AC
Descriptor is required, such as
				the current load on the AC. No point is
trying to join if he AC
				indicates it's already at max capacity.
				<PRC> I believe if the AC does not
return the response, then it implies=20
				(2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is
handled during the join or configure
				process, which I believe is right.
			=09
			=09
				17) Is AC Name text?
			=09
				<PRC> Yes, and same with WTP Name.
			=09
			=09
				18) Primary Discovery are not required.=20
			=09
				<PRC> Disagree. Required for failover.
			=09
			=09
				19) The text does not make it clear that
the contents of the WTP
				Location is informative only, and as
Dave calls it, a "scratchpad".
			=09
				<PRC> Well, to be honest, I thought the
example "next to the fridge"=20
				made it clear that the information did
not derive from any scientific
				formula. The description also states
this is a user-defined. I believe
				this should be good enough.
			=09
			=09
				20) Session is not required
			=09
				<PRC> I believe you may be correct that
with the transition to DTLS,
				this is no longer required.
			=09
			=09
				21) need to send "common name" as found
in the WTP CERT so that the AC
				can verify
			=09
				<PRC> The protocol currently relies on
the MAC address being the key
				that binds the certificate to the WTP. I
don't see a need to change
				this.
			=09
			=09
				22) Result code in Join Response is not
sufficient, for instance WTP HW=20
				not supported.
			=09
				<PRC> Well, the protocol does not
require this because the Discovery
				Response would never be sent (as the
protocol stands today).
			=09
			=09
				23) AC IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses
clustering, which is unnecessary.=20
			=09
				<PRC> Agreed.
			=09
			=09
				24) Change Echo to Keepalive or
heartbeat.
			=09
				<PRC> I call it potato....
			=09
			=09
				25) What if all of the message elements
do not fit within a single
				CAPWAP control frame.=20
			=09
				<PRC> We should address this.
			=09
			=09
				26) AC Name with Index is all messed
up...
			=09
				<PRC> Not really. You simply include
more than one, and the index field
				is clearly the priority. Don't
understand the Multi-AC comment. No=20
				inter-AC protocol implied here.
			=09
			=09
				27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join,
not configure.
			=09
				<PRC> Agreed, but wonder even more why
we are duplicating this
				information across both the WTP
Descriptor and the WTP Board Data=20
				message elements.
			=09
			=09
				28) The WTP Static IPv4 Address should
not have the Static bit, but
				instead state that 0.0.0.0
<http://0.0.0.0/> means a static address is not to be used.
			=09
				<PRC> I don't have an issue with this
request, but in the end we have=20
				the same function. The reason why I
state this is that we can refine
				this protocol until the cows come home,
and at one point we need to draw=20
				a line in the sand.
			=09
			=09
				29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the
Join, and the reasons listed=20
				are not clear enough.
			=09
				<PRC> Doesn't really matter whether this
is included in the
				configuration or the join, but if the WG
agrees to move it. We can=20
				clarify some of the reasons, as long as
it provides value.=20
			=09
			=09
				30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio
Configuration message element's BSSID
				field should be an array.
			=09
				<PRC> Disagree.
			=09
			=09
				30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio
Configuration message element's Country
				Code is not clear enough.
			=09
				<PRC> The text points to the actual MIB
element in the 802.11-1999
				standard, which very clearly defines the
contents of the field. I don't=20
				think there's value in replicating the
format of this field in the=20
				CAPWAP standard.
			=09
			=09
				31) There seems like an awful lot of
additional configuration message
				elements that need to be specified here!
			=09
				<PRC> Having built a protocol based on
this, it's not clear to me what's=20
				missing. I think it would be useful if
you provided concrete details on
				what's missing.
			=09
			=09
				32) Configuration Status is just plain
broken because any configuration=20
				change operation may fail and there is
no           response to the=20
				configuration changes specified in this
command.
			=09
				<PRC> There certainly is - I guess I
don't understand the concern.
			=09
			=09
				33) Use of Change State Event should
instead be Radio Admin State.=20
			=09
				<PRC> Perhaps the two are not described
properly. The first is used by=20
				the WTP to inform the AC that something
has occurred with a radio. The
				second is used by the AC to
enable/disable a radio.
			=09
			=09
				34) Report Timer needs to be in section
4.5 or 11
			=09
				<PRC> ok
			=09
			=09
				35) Should Idle Timeout be per radio, or
per WTP, and should the value
				be defined in section 4.5 or 11.
			=09
				<PRC> Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is
fine as it is.=20
			=09
			=09
				36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and
should be removed.=20
			=09
				<PRC> Disagree. I believe it is
necessary to create enough resiliency in
				the protocol/service.
			=09
			=09
				37) How are the "Rate Set" and
"Supported Rates" encoded.=20
			=09
				<PRC> This was fixed in the -02=20
			=09
			=09
				38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the
configuration, but instead in the
				join.
			=09
				<PRC> Not sure this really matters....
			=09
			=09
				39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so
strange and is being managed like no=20
				other configuration data.
			=09
				<PRC> I do not understand the comment
			=09
			=09
				40) Decryption Error Report Period is
not defined in section 4.5 or 11
			=09
				<PRC> ok, and note that the information
has been moved to the IEEE=20
				802.11 RSNA Error Report From Mobile
			=09
			=09
				41) Configuration Update Response.
today, there are primarily two types
				of configuration models. The first is
when config is changed, it is only
				changed in the volatile copy (the memory
or running). An explicit=20
				command is needed to save the config to
nonvolatile storage. The second
				model has config both running (volatile)
and saved (nonvolatile) config
				changed when a config change is made.
And there might be a special
				command to have a config change apply to
only one. In this case, there
				is no need for a "save config to
nonvolatile" command. It is not clear
				what is suppose to be supported here in
CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP=20
				support devices with no or very limited
nonvolatile storage for config!
			=09
				<PRC> CAPWAP does not support WTPs with
no nonvolatile storage. The
				protocol has the AC push configs to the
WTP, which saves them at the=20
				time they are received. I do not believe
anything else is required.
			=09
			=09
				42) Configuration Update Response
includes the Result Code message
				element, which includes values that do
not appear to be relevant for=20
				this message, and there are plenty of
other failure cases
			=09
				<PRC> ok, but note that we are sharing a
common message element. Any
				suggestions on how to address your
issue?
			=09
			=09
				43) Change State Event Report. This
seems a little silly to be sent in=20
				the "configure" state. It seems only
appropriate for the "run" state.
				Some might argue that even in the "run"
state it shouldn't be sent after
				a "config update" request that changes
the operational state. However,=20
				in the "run" state, it may take a while
to have the operational state
				change to follow the admin state. Thus,
I think it is OK in the "run"
				state after config changes."
			=09
				<PRC> I believe this was addressed in
-02.=20
			=09
			=09
				44) Clear Config Request. this operation
has several problems, which
				include:
				   1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec says
that this can only be done in
				the "run" state. This is silly. It
should also be possible in the=20
				"configure" state.
				<PRC> I wonder why the AC would even
consider clearing the WTP's state
				before it even knows how it is
configured.
			=09
				   2) the value of "manufacturing
defaults" is not defined, and a poor=20
				term to use, since it implies that that
each manufacturer can have
				different values. If so, then the AC
will have no knowledge of the
				config on the WTP! The problem of
"default config values" has already be=20
				mentioned above. After each config
attribute has been defined with a
				default value, then the proper term
would be "CAPWAP config defaults".
				<PRC> Yes, you've raised this point
already, and I agree that it does=20
				need to be addressed.
			=09
				   3) This operation is not defined to
have a response. This is broken,
				since any config change can fail. Also,
it is not defined what happens
				next. Does this cause the WTP to reboot
an start a "clean discovery"?=20
				<PRC> This was addressed in -02
			=09
			=09
				45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are
actually three different "Image
				Data Request" messages. Which one is
determined          by which of the
				three message elements is contained.
This is completely silly! There=20
				should be three separate operations!
Additionally, how does the WTP know
				which image to get? The AC should be
making that decision.
			=09
				<PRC> I believe the WTP is the only
device that knows what it's filename=20
				should be. Why would an AC vendor know
about file naming conventions
				used by the WTP vendors? I believe your
other issues are discussed in
				the next items.
			=09
			=09
				46) Image Data Response. this is silly.
This operation can fail! There=20
				needs to be message element that
indicates the          result.
			=09
				<PRC> How so? This is only used to send
firmware to the WTP. Not clear
				what could fail... Reading the image
from flash?
			=09
			=09
				47) Image Data Request. when starting
over again at the WTP start state,=20
				the WTP shouldn't use the "normal"
discovery process, but instead "fast
				track" a connection back to the AC that
just downloaded the image. With
				a little more          work, we could
probably figure out a way to reuse=20
				the old DTLS session.
			=09
				<PRC> To what gain? What is so expensive
about the discovery, and what
				happened if the AC was not longer
reachable?
			=09
			=09
				48) opcode - if this is here, might as
well also have a value that=20
				indicates last block of the image file,
instead of looking at the block
				size.
			=09
				<PRC> But we're just changing for the
sake of changing - the protocol
				works as-is.
			=09
			=09
				49) since this operation does not have
the block number as a parameter,=20
				the WTP must determine the block number
via the CAPWAP message header
				sequence number.  NOTE: DTLS does not
provide in-order delivery of
				packets. Also, this requires the WTP to
remember state. This message
				element should be re-engineered to have
the following subfields:=20
				[edited]
			=09
				<PRC> The control header includes a
sequence number, and while we can
				change the current protocol to match
your recommendations, the protocol
				does work. If it ain't broken...
			=09
			=09
				50) Image Data Response. this is silly.
This operation can fail!  For=20
				example, the WTP can run out of space to
store          the block, or
				there could be a failure in writing the
block to storage. (Or as "Image
				Data Request"(9.1a) is presently
specified, the checksum match could=20
				fail.) There needs to be message element
that indicates the result.)
				Note: don't need a block number field,
since request and responses are
				paired.
			=09
				<PRC> We can include a result code
			=09
			=09
				51) Image Data Request. silly beyond
belief=20
			=09
				<PRC> Beauty is in the eye of the
beholder ;-). Seriously, the protocol
				does work, so what exactly are you
looking for?
			=09
			=09
				52) Image Data Response. This is silly.
This operation can fail! There
				needs to be message element that
indicates the          result.
			=09
				<PRC> See above comment.
			=09
				53) Reset Request. ...
			=09
				<PRC> The comment is irrelevant now that
Clear Config has changed.
			=09
			=09
				54) Reset Response. this is silly. This
operation can fail! There needs
				to be message element that indicates the
result.
			=09
				<PRC> I sense a trend. I will stop
including these messages from now on.
			=09
			=09
				55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is
this reported if the condition
				remains?
			=09
				<PRC> Only required once, I think, but
we may want to include some text
				covering that.
			=09
			=09
				56) the list of events seems
understated!=20
			=09
				<PRC> Text and conditions please
			=09
			=09
				57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have
- remove.
			=09
				<PRC> Disagree. Providing diagnostics
capabilities is required.
			=09
			=09
				58) Mobile Config Request. the actual
details of how this works on both=20
				splitMAC and especially localMAC are not
well specified. That is, only
				the figures and text in sections 11.1.1
and 11.1.2 provide any clue as
				to events that would cause an AC to send
this message type. Also, there=20
				are restrictions on combinations of
parameters that can be included in
				the message.
			=09
				<PRC> I wonder whether other folks agree
that more details are required.
			=09
			=09
				59) it doesn't say if one message can be
used to update more than one=20
				STA. It should be able.
			=09
				<PRC> No, otherwise you end up with the
problem of associating specific
				message elements with a given mobile.
One mobile per request.
			=09
			=09
				60) IEEE 802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the
STA MAC address be included so=20
				this message element can be matched with
a (4.4.8)Add Mobile message
				element?
			=09
				<PRC> I believe this is to your previous
point, but the protocol assumes
				one mobile per request.
			=09
			=09
				61) IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s
this for data traffic to the AC? If
				so, then why is this an 802.11 message
element
			=09
				<PRC> Intended to be a way to push
policies to the WTP to prioritize
				mobile traffic.
			=09
			=09
				62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why
is a new message type that is
				802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11
WLANs? It seems like the
				existing "(8.4)Configuration Update
Request" message could be used.
			=09
				<PRC> To be more specific only.=20
			=09
			=09
				63) note here there are information
elements to create, delete, and
				modify WLANs. However, for message type
"(10.1)Mobile Config Request",
				there is only add and delete (and the
"add" used to modify).=20
			=09
				<PRC> Correct. The protocol requires the
AC to resend a new add with a
				different policy. No specific reason,
but if this is deemed
				inconsistent, we could change it.
			=09
			=09
				64) IEEE 802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The
mapping of WLAN IDs to BSSIDs=20
				seems like it needs a little more work
			=09
				<PRC> What exactly would you like to
see?
			=09
			=09
				Pat Calhoun
				CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
				Cisco Systems
			=09
			=09
			=09
				> -----Original Message-----=20
				> From: David T. Perkins
[mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com]
				> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 4:31 PM=20
				> To: capwap@frascone.com=20
				> Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on
CAPWAP-01 operations
				>
				> HI,=20
				>
				> I've attached a long file that
summarizes the operations in
				> CAPWAP-01.
				>
				> Enjoy,
				> /david t. perkins=20
				>
=09
_________________________________________________________________=20
				To unsubscribe or modify your
subscription options, please visit:
=09
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			=09
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			=09



=09
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				To unsubscribe or modify your
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			=09
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			=09
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2995" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D154195522-28112006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Do you=20
anticipate the AC may decide not to allow the join to proceed because of =
the=20
reboot statistics? Note that accepting the join is now rather trivial =
compared=20
to the actual DTLS session that had to be established=20
beforehand.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Dorothy Stanley=20
  [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 28, =
2006=20
  2:47 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)<BR><B>Cc:</B> Michael =
Montemurro;=20
  capwap@frascone.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Capwap] Proposed =
resolution to=20
  Issue 177 WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A =
commentary on=20
  CAPWAP-01 operations<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>Pat,<BR><BR>In the current draft, the AC has no indication =
of the=20
  stability of the <BR>WTP before it accepts the Join Request. The value =
for=20
  adding<BR>WTP Reboot statistics to the Join Request is&nbsp; to =
provide the=20
  reboot statistics, <BR>if they are available.<BR><BR>There seemed to =
be three=20
  options to addressing this comment:<BR>1) Reject the comment, no =
change to the=20
  draft.<BR>2) Provide the option for the WTP to send the Reboot =
statistics to=20
  the AC in the Join Request<BR>3) Require the WTP to send the Reboot <A =

  href=3D"http://statistics.to">statistics.to</A> the AC in the Join=20
  Request<BR><BR>I proposed option 2, allowing the WTP to provide them =
if=20
  available. This option<BR>seems to allow for your stated=20
  preference.<BR><BR>Dorothy<BR><BR>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 10/9/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Pat Calhoun=20
  (pacalhou)</B> &lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com">pcalhoun@cisco.com</A>&gt; =
wrote:</SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
    <DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I personally =
prefer to=20
    start maintaining configuration and status state on the WTP after =
the join=20
    is complete. Is there a problem that arises with the current draft? =
Is this=20
    just a personal preference, or is there a bug?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless =
Networking Business=20
    Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</FONT></P>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
      <HR>
      <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Dorothy Stanley =
[mailto:<A=20
      onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com"=20
      target=3D_blank>dstanley1389@gmail.com</A>] <BR><B>Sent:</B> =
Friday,=20
      September 29, 2006 2:22 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Michael =
Montemurro<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
      <A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com"=20
      target=3D_blank>capwap@frascone.com</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> =
[Capwap] Proposed=20
      resolution to <SPAN class=3Dst id=3Dst name=3D"st">Issue</SPAN> =
<SPAN class=3Dst=20
      id=3Dst name=3D"st">177</SPAN> WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the =
Join/was=20
      Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
      <DIV></DIV>
      <DIV>All,</DIV>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3Dst id=3Dst name=3D"st">Issue</SPAN> <SPAN =
class=3Dst id=3Dst=20
      name=3D"st">177</SPAN>, "WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the =
Join"</DIV>
      <DIV>is listed below:</DIV><PRE><EM>29) WTP Reboot Statistics =
belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed<BR>are not clear =
enough.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Doesn't really matter whether this is =
included in the<BR>configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to =
move it. We can
<BR>clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides =
value.</EM></PRE>
      <DIV>Believing that there may be times when it is desirable for =
the=20
      WTP&nbsp;to provide </DIV>
      <DIV>information to the AC about its stability, the proposed =
resolution to=20
      <SPAN class=3Dst id=3Dst name=3D"st">Issue</SPAN> <SPAN class=3Dst =
id=3Dst=20
      name=3D"st">177</SPAN> is <BR>to insert the following text at the =
end=20
      of</DIV>
      <DIV>Section 6.1 "Join Request":</DIV>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>The following message element may be included in the Join =
Request=20
      message:</DIV>
      <DIV>- WTP Reboot Statistics, see Section 4.4.44.</DIV>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>Comments please,</DIV>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>Thanks,</DIV>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>Dorothy<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 6/30/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Michael=20
      Montemurro</B> &lt;<A=20
      onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com"=20
      target=3D_blank>montemurro.michael@gmail.com</A>&gt; wrote:</SPAN> =

      <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
      style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
        <DIV>David, Pat,</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points <SPAN=20
        name=3D"st">in</SPAN> David's email. Happy hunting!</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>Mike<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN>
        <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 6/27/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Pat=20
        Calhoun (pacalhou)</B> &lt;<A=20
        onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
        href=3D"mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com" =
target=3D_blank>pcalhoun@cisco.com=20
        </A>&gt; wrote:</SPAN>=20
        <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
        style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Going=20
          through David's lengthy document, he has raised an=20
          interesting<BR>number of points that I believe require issues =
to be=20
          created. At one <BR>point I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in =
order to=20
          be brief, and<BR>introducing my own numbering =
scheme.<BR><BR>1) Can=20
          message elements be in any order? (I believe they should=20
          be)<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes, and I suspect we need to include =
text to=20
          make it more <BR>obvious.<BR><BR><BR>2) Are all specified =
message=20
          elements required? (The obvious answer is<BR>"yes", but this =
document=20
          doesn't discuss versioning. For example, what<BR>if in a new =
version=20
          of CAPWAP an additional message element was to be <BR>added. =
Would a=20
          new message type be created and the additional =
message<BR>element=20
          added to it, or the existing type reused?)<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; =
This is=20
          a great question, and one that does need to be addressed<BR>in =
the=20
          spec. In the Diameter protocol we dealt with this <SPAN =
class=3Dst id=3Dst=20
          name=3D"st">issue</SPAN> by <BR>including a "Mandatory to =
implement"=20
          bit. If any AVP was received, whose<BR>bit was set, yet was =
not=20
          recognized, then the request had to =
be<BR>rejected.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
          We could consider something similar here, but I believe with =
the=20
          <BR>firmware download component of the protocol it may be less =
of an=20
          <SPAN class=3Dst id=3Dst name=3D"st">issue</SPAN> =
-<BR>although not=20
          guaranteed. I would hope (and expect) that as the =
CAPWAP<BR>protocol=20
          extends, the AC would push new firmware to the WTP. This does=20
          <BR>require that the initial part of the state machine be =
fairly=20
          static, and<BR>this could be an area where the "Mandatory to=20
          implement" bit could be<BR>useful as it would allow the AC to =
fall=20
          back to older protocol behavior. <BR><BR>3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't =
do a=20
          good job of indicating which message elements<BR>can be=20
          repeated.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Another good point. When we list =
the=20
          message elements, we should<BR>note whether the frequently is =
0-1=20
          (meaning absent or once), 1 (only <BR>once) or 0+ (meaning any =
number=20
          of them could be present.<BR><BR><BR>4) Can "additional" =
message=20
          elements be added to a message? (I believe<BR>so for reporting =

          capabilities, statistics, and&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; events.=20
          For<BR>configuration, there is nothing in the protocol that =
says what=20
          happens<BR>when one end gets an =
configuration&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
          element it doesn't know about.<BR>Should it be ignored, and =
the other=20
          elements processed, or should the<BR>complete=20
          operation&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; failed?) <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; =
The=20
          "Mandatory to implement" bit above could address this <SPAN =
class=3Dst=20
          id=3Dst name=3D"st">issue</SPAN>.<BR>If an unrecognized =
message element is=20
          found to have the bit set, then<BR>the whole message needs to =
be=20
          rejected. If the bit is not set, the <BR>message element may =
be safely=20
          ignored.<BR><BR><BR>5) The config has a concept of "default =
value" for=20
          each configuration<BR>attribute. However, the default values =
are not=20
          clearly specified. This<BR>needs to be resolved to be able to =
support=20
          "default values". <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Another good point =
raised by=20
          David.<BR><BR><BR>6) the documentation of which "binding =
specific"=20
          message elements are to<BR>be included with CAPWAP messages is =
not=20
          consistent, and is difficult to <BR>follow.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; =
Has=20
          this been addressed in the latest (-02) =
document?<BR><BR><BR>7) There=20
          are some message elements that cause "actions". This =
approach<BR>to=20
          protocol design is problematic and should be eliminated.=20
          <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Could you be more specific as well as =
provide=20
          guidance on what you<BR>would like to see?<BR><BR><BR>8) The =
message=20
          types are inconsistently named, and do not follow =
the<BR>conventions=20
          of well designed protocols. Can the operations be named=20
          <BR>consistently with the following =
terminology:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;1)=20
          request/response (used to get/set/perform =
action)<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;2)=20
          report/ack (use to tell the other side =
something)<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
          Could you provide your thoughts on which messages fall within=20
          <BR>which one of your categories?<BR><BR><BR>9) Many of the=20
          configuration items, and status items are not listed in<BR>one =
section=20
          with definitions. (Well make it two sections - one =
for<BR>CAPWAP and=20
          the other which is "binding" specific.) For example, not all =
<BR>of=20
          the time period lengths are identified and specified in =
section=20
          4.5.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Unfortunately, the document has gone =
back and=20
          forth a few times<BR>and before we opt to change the structure =
of the=20
          document, I'd like to <BR>ensure that we have broad agreement =
on what=20
          we want - with the<BR>understanding that we will never make =
everyone=20
          happy.<BR><BR><BR>10) each operation should have listed in =
which=20
          states it can be sent and<BR>received<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I do =
not=20
          understand your comment.<BR><BR><BR>11) All strings, such as =
WTP=20
          location, should be changed from US-ASCII<BR>encoding to UTF-8 =

          encoding.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Agreed.<BR><BR>12) The term =
"mobile" is=20
          not really accurate when describing wireless <BR>interfaces, =
since=20
          wireless does not =
imply&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;mobile. Can=20
          we just use<BR>the techie term "STA" =
instead.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I=20
          agree we should use the term Station, or STA for =
short.<BR><BR><BR>13)=20
          The WTP Descriptor message element contains too much =
information,=20
          <BR>lacks clarity on the WTP encryption field and includes =
version=20
          numbers,<BR>which should be in string form.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; =
To the=20
          first point, I disagree. I think there is value in=20
          knowing<BR>everything about the WTP. The AC vendors can expose =

          whatever information <BR>they want, but I don't believe =
anything is=20
          unnecessary.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To the second point, this is =
one of=20
          those areas where the concept<BR>of the technology binding =
creates=20
          complexity. Given that we cannot<BR>simply discuss 802.11i at =
this=20
          point, the only thing we can do is punt<BR>to another section =
in the=20
          technology binding section. That said, I agree<BR>with Dave =
that the=20
          802.11 binding section is too light in this area.<BR>However, =
I would=20
          much prefer that instead of trying to address this =
<BR>specific <SPAN=20
          class=3Dst id=3Dst name=3D"st">issue</SPAN>, we discuss =
whether we should=20
          even be supporting the mode<BR>of operation where 802.11i is =
performed=20
          in the AC - especially with the<BR>introduction of DTLS to =
secure the=20
          data plane. Right now, it just feels <BR>like we have too many =
options=20
          and I am worried that interoperability<BR>will be severely =
impacted=20
          (not to mention protocol complexity).<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To =
the last=20
          point, I have no issues with including text stating <BR>that =
the=20
          version numbers should be in string form.<BR><BR><BR>14) The =
WTP=20
          Descriptor information is not required at Join=20
          time.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Well, as far as I can tell, I think =
there's=20
          value in knowing<BR>whether the WTP can even be supported by =
the AC.=20
          So the more info is <BR>provided by the WTP, the better the AC =
can=20
          determine whether it should<BR>just ignore the WTP or not. =
This could=20
          be done because it knows that the<BR>firmware running on the =
WTP is=20
          not compatible, and it has no new<BR>firmware to=20
          download.<BR><BR><BR>15) Are the values in the WTP Frame =
Encryption a=20
          capabilities bit, or an<BR>enum?<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Looks like =
an enum=20
          to me. Not sure what Dave would prefer the text<BR>to read. =
There are=20
          various other similar comments throughout, which I <BR>will =
not repeat=20
          here.<BR><BR><BR>16) The Discovery Response is broken. The AC =
SHOULD=20
          NOT be providing any<BR>info to a WTP (or something that =
claims to be=20
          a WTP). Also, the AC<BR>should tell the WTP what to do next, =
with=20
          choices: 1) Ok to try to join, <BR>2) don't try to join, 3)=20
          =
try&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
          discover on a list of<BR>returned ACs)<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I =
don't=20
          believe there is an <SPAN class=3Dst id=3Dst =
name=3D"st">issue</SPAN> with=20
          sending the AC's<BR>information to the WTP, but would solicit =
input=20
          from the list. That <BR>said, some of the information in the =
AC=20
          Descriptor is required, such as<BR>the current load on the AC. =
No=20
          point is trying to join if he AC<BR>indicates it's already at =
max=20
          capacity.<BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe if the AC does not return =
the=20
          response, then it implies <BR>(2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) =
is=20
          handled during the join or configure<BR>process, which I =
believe is=20
          right.<BR><BR><BR>17) Is AC Name text?<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes, =
and=20
          same with WTP Name.<BR><BR><BR>18) Primary Discovery are not =
required.=20
          <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. Required for =
failover.<BR><BR><BR>19)=20
          The text does not make it clear that the contents of the=20
          WTP<BR>Location is informative only, and as Dave calls it, a=20
          "scratchpad".<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Well, to be honest, I thought =
the=20
          example "next to the fridge" <BR>made it clear that the =
information=20
          did not derive from any scientific<BR>formula. The description =
also=20
          states this is a user-defined. I believe<BR>this should be =
good=20
          enough.<BR><BR><BR>20) Session is not =
required<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I=20
          believe you may be correct that with the transition to =
DTLS,<BR>this=20
          is no longer required.<BR><BR><BR>21) need to send "common =
name" as=20
          found in the WTP CERT so that the AC<BR>can =
verify<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
          The protocol currently relies on the MAC address being the =
key<BR>that=20
          binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't see a need to=20
          change<BR>this.<BR><BR><BR>22) Result code in Join Response is =
not=20
          sufficient, for instance WTP HW <BR>not =
supported.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
          Well, the protocol does not require this because the=20
          Discovery<BR>Response would never be sent (as the protocol =
stands=20
          today).<BR><BR><BR>23) AC IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering, =
which=20
          is unnecessary. <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Agreed.<BR><BR><BR>24) =
Change Echo=20
          to Keepalive or heartbeat.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I call it=20
          potato....<BR><BR><BR>25) What if all of the message elements =
do not=20
          fit within a single<BR>CAPWAP control frame. =
<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; We=20
          should address this.<BR><BR><BR>26) AC Name with Index is all =
messed=20
          up...<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Not really. You simply include more =
than one,=20
          and the index field<BR>is clearly the priority. Don't =
understand the=20
          Multi-AC comment. No <BR>inter-AC protocol implied=20
          here.<BR><BR><BR>27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not=20
          configure.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Agreed, but wonder even more why =
we are=20
          duplicating this<BR>information across both the WTP Descriptor =
and the=20
          WTP Board Data <BR>message elements.<BR><BR><BR>28) The WTP =
Static=20
          IPv4 Address should not have the Static bit, but<BR>instead =
state that=20
          <A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
          href=3D"http://0.0.0.0/" target=3D_blank>0.0.0.0 </A>means a =
static=20
          address is not to be used.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I don't have an =
<SPAN=20
          class=3Dst id=3Dst name=3D"st">issue</SPAN> with this request, =
but in the=20
          end we have <BR>the same function. The reason why I state this =
is that=20
          we can refine<BR>this protocol until the cows come home, and =
at one=20
          point we need to draw <BR>a line in the sand.<BR><BR><BR>29) =
WTP=20
          Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed =
<BR>are=20
          not clear enough.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Doesn't really matter =
whether=20
          this is included in the<BR>configuration or the join, but if =
the WG=20
          agrees to move it. We can <BR>clarify some of the reasons, as =
long as=20
          it provides value. <BR><BR><BR>30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio=20
          Configuration message element's BSSID<BR>field should be an=20
          array.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree.<BR><BR><BR>30) The IEEE =
802.11 WTP=20
          Radio Configuration message element's Country<BR>Code is not =
clear=20
          enough.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; The text points to the actual MIB =
element=20
          in the 802.11-1999<BR>standard, which very clearly defines the =

          contents of the field. I don't <BR>think there's value in =
replicating=20
          the format of this field in the <BR>CAPWAP =
standard.<BR><BR><BR>31)=20
          There seems like an awful lot of additional configuration=20
          message<BR>elements that need to be specified =
here!<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
          Having built a protocol based on this, it's not clear to me =
what's=20
          <BR>missing. I think it would be useful if you provided =
concrete=20
          details on<BR>what's missing.<BR><BR><BR>32) Configuration =
Status is=20
          just plain broken because any configuration <BR>change =
operation may=20
          fail and there is=20
          no&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

          response to the <BR>configuration changes specified in this=20
          command.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; There certainly is - I guess I =
don't=20
          understand the concern.<BR><BR><BR>33) Use of Change State =
Event=20
          should instead be Radio Admin State. <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; =
Perhaps the=20
          two are not described properly. The first is used by <BR>the =
WTP to=20
          inform the AC that something has occurred with a radio. =
The<BR>second=20
          is used by the AC to enable/disable a radio.<BR><BR><BR>34) =
Report=20
          Timer needs to be in section 4.5 or 11<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
          ok<BR><BR><BR>35) Should Idle Timeout be per radio, or per =
WTP, and=20
          should the value<BR>be defined in section 4.5 or=20
          11.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine =
as it=20
          is. <BR><BR><BR>36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and =
should be=20
          removed. <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. I believe it is =
necessary to=20
          create enough resiliency in<BR>the =
protocol/service.<BR><BR><BR>37)=20
          How are the "Rate Set" and "Supported Rates" encoded.=20
          <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; This was fixed in the -02 <BR><BR><BR>38) =
AC=20
          Timestamp doesn't belong in the configuration, but instead in=20
          the<BR>join.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Not sure this really=20
          matters....<BR><BR><BR>39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so =
strange and=20
          is being managed like no <BR>other configuration=20
          data.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I do not understand the=20
          comment<BR><BR><BR>40) Decryption Error Report Period is not =
defined=20
          in section 4.5 or 11<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; ok, and note that the=20
          information has been moved to the IEEE <BR>802.11 RSNA Error =
Report=20
          From Mobile<BR><BR><BR>41) Configuration Update Response. =
today, there=20
          are primarily two types<BR>of configuration models. The first =
is when=20
          config is changed, it is only<BR>changed in the volatile copy =
(the=20
          memory or running). An explicit <BR>command is needed to save =
the=20
          config to nonvolatile storage. The second<BR>model has config =
both=20
          running (volatile) and saved (nonvolatile) config<BR>changed =
when a=20
          config change is made. And there might be a special<BR>command =
to have=20
          a config change apply to only one. In this case, there<BR>is =
no need=20
          for a "save config to nonvolatile" command. It is not =
clear<BR>what is=20
          suppose to be supported here in CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP=20
          <BR>support devices with no or very limited nonvolatile =
storage for=20
          config!<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; CAPWAP does not support WTPs with =
no=20
          nonvolatile storage. The<BR>protocol has the AC push configs =
to the=20
          WTP, which saves them at the <BR>time they are received. I do =
not=20
          believe anything else is required.<BR><BR><BR>42) =
Configuration Update=20
          Response includes the Result Code message<BR>element, which =
includes=20
          values that do not appear to be relevant for <BR>this message, =
and=20
          there are plenty of other failure cases<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; ok, =
but=20
          note that we are sharing a common message element. =
Any<BR>suggestions=20
          on how to address your <SPAN class=3Dst id=3Dst=20
          name=3D"st">issue</SPAN>?<BR><BR><BR>43) Change State Event =
Report. This=20
          seems a little silly to be sent in <BR>the "configure" state. =
It seems=20
          only appropriate for the "run" state.<BR>Some might argue that =
even in=20
          the "run" state it shouldn't be sent after<BR>a "config =
update"=20
          request that changes the operational state. However, <BR>in =
the "run"=20
          state, it may take a while to have the operational =
state<BR>change to=20
          follow the admin state. Thus, I think it is OK in the =
"run"<BR>state=20
          after config changes."<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe this was =
addressed=20
          in -02. <BR><BR><BR>44) Clear Config Request. this operation =
has=20
          several problems, which<BR>include:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1) =
currently, the=20
          CAPWAP-01 spec says that this can only be done in<BR>the "run" =
state.=20
          This is silly. It should also be possible in the =
<BR>"configure"=20
          state.<BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I wonder why the AC would even consider =
clearing=20
          the WTP's state<BR>before it even knows how it is=20
          configured.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; 2) the value of "manufacturing =

          defaults" is not defined, and a poor <BR>term to use, since it =
implies=20
          that that each manufacturer can have<BR>different values. If =
so, then=20
          the AC will have no knowledge of the<BR>config on the WTP! The =
problem=20
          of "default config values" has already be <BR>mentioned above. =
After=20
          each config attribute has been defined with a<BR>default =
value, then=20
          the proper term would be "CAPWAP config =
defaults".<BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes,=20
          you've raised this point already, and I agree that it does =
<BR>need to=20
          be addressed.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; 3) This operation is not =
defined to=20
          have a response. This is broken,<BR>since any config change =
can fail.=20
          Also, it is not defined what happens<BR>next. Does this cause =
the WTP=20
          to reboot an start a "clean discovery"? <BR>&lt;PRC&gt; This =
was=20
          addressed in -02<BR><BR><BR>45) Image Data Request. Yes, there =
are=20
          actually three different "Image<BR>Data Request" messages. =
Which one=20
          is=20
          =
determined&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;by =

          which of the<BR>three message elements is contained. This is=20
          completely silly! There <BR>should be three separate =
operations!=20
          Additionally, how does the WTP know<BR>which image to get? The =
AC=20
          should be making that decision.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe =
the WTP=20
          is the only device that knows what it's filename <BR>should =
be. Why=20
          would an AC vendor know about file naming conventions<BR>used =
by the=20
          WTP vendors? I believe your other issues are discussed =
in<BR>the next=20
          items.<BR><BR><BR>46) Image Data Response. this is silly. This =

          operation can fail! There <BR>needs to be message element that =

          indicates=20
          =
the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<BR=
><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
          How so? This is only used to send firmware to the WTP. Not=20
          clear<BR>what could fail... Reading the image from=20
          flash?<BR><BR><BR>47) Image Data Request. when starting over =
again at=20
          the WTP start state, <BR>the WTP shouldn't use the "normal" =
discovery=20
          process, but instead "fast<BR>track" a connection back to the =
AC that=20
          just downloaded the image. With<BR>a little=20
          =
more&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;work,=20
          we could probably figure out a way to reuse <BR>the old DTLS=20
          session.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To what gain? What is so expensive =
about=20
          the discovery, and what<BR>happened if the AC was not longer=20
          reachable?<BR><BR><BR>48) opcode - if this is here, might as =
well also=20
          have a value that <BR>indicates last block of the image file, =
instead=20
          of looking at the block<BR>size.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; But we're =
just=20
          changing for the sake of changing - the protocol<BR>works=20
          as-is.<BR><BR><BR>49) since this operation does not have the =
block=20
          number as a parameter, <BR>the WTP must determine the block =
number via=20
          the CAPWAP message header<BR>sequence number.&nbsp;&nbsp;NOTE: =
DTLS=20
          does not provide in-order delivery of<BR>packets. Also, this =
requires=20
          the WTP to remember state. This message<BR>element should be=20
          re-engineered to have the following subfields:=20
          <BR>[edited]<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; The control header includes a =
sequence=20
          number, and while we can<BR>change the current protocol to =
match your=20
          recommendations, the protocol<BR>does work. If it ain't=20
          broken...<BR><BR><BR>50) Image Data Response. this is silly. =
This=20
          operation can fail!&nbsp;&nbsp;For <BR>example, the WTP can =
run out of=20
          space to=20
          =
store&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the=20
          block, or<BR>there could be a failure in writing the block to =
storage.=20
          (Or as "Image<BR>Data Request"(9.1a) is presently specified, =
the=20
          checksum match could <BR>fail.) There needs to be message =
element that=20
          indicates the result.)<BR>Note: don't need a block number =
field, since=20
          request and responses are<BR>paired.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; We can =
include=20
          a result code<BR><BR><BR>51) Image Data Request. silly beyond =
belief=20
          <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-).=20
          Seriously, the protocol<BR>does work, so what exactly are you =
looking=20
          for?<BR><BR><BR>52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This =
operation=20
          can fail! There<BR>needs to be message element that indicates=20
          =
the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<BR=
><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
          See above comment.<BR><BR>53) Reset Request. =
...<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
          The comment is irrelevant now that Clear Config has=20
          changed.<BR><BR><BR>54) Reset Response. this is silly. This =
operation=20
          can fail! There needs<BR>to be message element that indicates=20
          =
the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<BR=
><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
          I sense a trend. I will stop including these messages from now =

          on.<BR><BR><BR>55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this =
reported=20
          if the condition<BR>remains?<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Only required =
once, I=20
          think, but we may want to include some text<BR>covering=20
          that.<BR><BR><BR>56) the list of events seems understated!=20
          <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Text and conditions please<BR><BR><BR>57) =
Data=20
          Transfer Request. Nice to have - remove.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; =
Disagree.=20
          Providing diagnostics capabilities is required.<BR><BR><BR>58) =
Mobile=20
          Config Request. the actual details of how this works on both=20
          <BR>splitMAC and especially localMAC are not well specified. =
That is,=20
          only<BR>the figures and text in sections 11.1.1 and 11.1.2 =
provide any=20
          clue as<BR>to events that would cause an AC to send this =
message type.=20
          Also, there <BR>are restrictions on combinations of parameters =
that=20
          can be included in<BR>the message.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I wonder =
whether=20
          other folks agree that more details are =
required.<BR><BR><BR>59) it=20
          doesn't say if one message can be used to update more than one =

          <BR>STA. It should be able.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; No, otherwise =
you end=20
          up with the problem of associating specific<BR>message =
elements with a=20
          given mobile. One mobile per request.<BR><BR><BR>60) IEEE =
802.11=20
          Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC address be included so <BR>this =
message=20
          element can be matched with a (4.4.8)Add Mobile=20
          message<BR>element?<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe this is to =
your=20
          previous point, but the protocol assumes<BR>one mobile per=20
          request.<BR><BR><BR>61) IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this =
for data=20
          traffic to the AC? If<BR>so, then why is this an 802.11 =
message=20
          element<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Intended to be a way to push =
policies to=20
          the WTP to prioritize<BR>mobile traffic.<BR><BR><BR>62) IEEE =
802.11=20
          WLAN Config Request. why is a new message type that =
is<BR>802.11=20
          specific needed to modify 802.11 WLANs? It seems like =
the<BR>existing=20
          "(8.4)Configuration Update Request" message could be=20
          used.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To be more specific only. =
<BR><BR><BR>63)=20
          note here there are information elements to create, delete,=20
          and<BR>modify WLANs. However, for message type "(10.1)Mobile =
Config=20
          Request",<BR>there is only add and delete (and the "add" used =
to=20
          modify). <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Correct. The protocol requires =
the AC to=20
          resend a new add with a<BR>different policy. No specific =
reason, but=20
          if this is deemed<BR>inconsistent, we could change =
it.<BR><BR><BR>64)=20
          IEEE 802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping of WLAN IDs to =
BSSIDs=20
          <BR>seems like it needs a little more work<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; =
What=20
          exactly would you like to see?<BR><BR><BR>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, =
Wireless=20
          Networking Business Unit<BR>Cisco Systems<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt;=20
          -----Original Message----- <BR>&gt; From: David T. Perkins =
[mailto:<A=20
          onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
          href=3D"mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com"=20
          target=3D_blank>dperkins@dsperkins.com</A>]<BR>&gt; Sent: =
Thursday, June=20
          22, 2006 4:31 PM <BR>&gt; To: <A=20
          onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
          href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com" =
target=3D_blank>capwap@frascone.com=20
          </A><BR>&gt; Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01=20
          operations<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; HI, <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I've attached =
a long=20
          file that summarizes the operations in<BR>&gt;=20
          CAPWAP-01.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Enjoy,<BR>&gt; /david t. perkins=20
          =
<BR>&gt;<BR>_____________________________________________________________=
____=20
          <BR>To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please =

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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP Reboot
	Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on
	CAPWAP-01 operations
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Yes, that's the only reason I can see for including the info.

On 11/28/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>  Do you anticipate the AC may decide not to allow the join to proceed
> because of the reboot statistics? Note that accepting the join is now rather
> trivial compared to the actual DTLS session that had to be established
> beforehand.
>
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 28, 2006 2:47 PM
> *To:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> *Cc:* Michael Montemurro; capwap@frascone.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP Reboot
> Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations
>
> Pat,
>
> In the current draft, the AC has no indication of the stability of the
> WTP before it accepts the Join Request. The value for adding
> WTP Reboot statistics to the Join Request is  to provide the reboot
> statistics,
> if they are available.
>
> There seemed to be three options to addressing this comment:
> 1) Reject the comment, no change to the draft.
> 2) Provide the option for the WTP to send the Reboot statistics to the AC
> in the Join Request
> 3) Require the WTP to send the Reboot statistics.to the AC in the Join
> Request
>
> I proposed option 2, allowing the WTP to provide them if available. This
> option
> seems to allow for your stated preference.
>
> Dorothy
>
> On 10/9/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com> wrote:
> >
> >  I personally prefer to start maintaining configuration and status state
> > on the WTP after the join is complete. Is there a problem that arises with
> > the current draft? Is this just a personal preference, or is there a bug?
> >
> >
> > Pat Calhoun
> > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> > Cisco Systems
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------
> > *From:* Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
> > *Sent:* Friday, September 29, 2006 2:22 PM
> > *To:* Michael Montemurro
> > *Cc:* capwap@frascone.com
> > *Subject:* [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP Reboot
> > Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations
> >
> >  All,
> >
> > Issue 177, "WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join"
> > is listed below:
> >
> > *29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed
> > are not clear enough.
> >
> > <PRC> Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the
> > configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can
> >
> > clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value.*
> >
> > Believing that there may be times when it is desirable for the WTP to
> > provide
> > information to the AC about its stability, the proposed resolution to
> > Issue 177 is
> > to insert the following text at the end of
> > Section 6.1 "Join Request":
> >
> > The following message element may be included in the Join Request
> > message:
> > - WTP Reboot Statistics, see Section 4.4.44.
> >
> > Comments please,
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dorothy
> >
> >
> > On 6/30/06, Michael Montemurro <montemurro.michael@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > David, Pat,
> > >
> > > I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points in David's email.
> > > Happy hunting!
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >  On 6/27/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Going through David's lengthy document, he has raised an interesting
> > > > number of points that I believe require issues to be created. At one
> > > >
> > > > point I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in order to be brief, and
> > > > introducing my own numbering scheme.
> > > >
> > > > 1) Can message elements be in any order? (I believe they should be)
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Yes, and I suspect we need to include text to make it more
> > > > obvious.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2) Are all specified message elements required? (The obvious answer
> > > > is
> > > > "yes", but this document doesn't discuss versioning. For example,
> > > > what
> > > > if in a new version of CAPWAP an additional message element was to
> > > > be
> > > > added. Would a new message type be created and the additional
> > > > message
> > > > element added to it, or the existing type reused?)
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> This is a great question, and one that does need to be
> > > > addressed
> > > > in the spec. In the Diameter protocol we dealt with this issue by
> > > > including a "Mandatory to implement" bit. If any AVP was received,
> > > > whose
> > > > bit was set, yet was not recognized, then the request had to be
> > > > rejected.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> We could consider something similar here, but I believe with
> > > > the
> > > > firmware download component of the protocol it may be less of an
> > > > issue -
> > > > although not guaranteed. I would hope (and expect) that as the
> > > > CAPWAP
> > > > protocol extends, the AC would push new firmware to the WTP. This
> > > > does
> > > > require that the initial part of the state machine be fairly static,
> > > > and
> > > > this could be an area where the "Mandatory to implement" bit could
> > > > be
> > > > useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to older protocol
> > > > behavior.
> > > >
> > > > 3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of indicating which message
> > > > elements
> > > > can be repeated.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Another good point. When we list the message elements, we
> > > > should
> > > > note whether the frequently is 0-1 (meaning absent or once), 1 (only
> > > >
> > > > once) or 0+ (meaning any number of them could be present.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 4) Can "additional" message elements be added to a message? (I
> > > > believe
> > > > so for reporting capabilities, statistics, and     events. For
> > > > configuration, there is nothing in the protocol that says what
> > > > happens
> > > > when one end gets an configuration     element it doesn't know
> > > > about.
> > > > Should it be ignored, and the other elements processed, or should
> > > > the
> > > > complete operation     failed?)
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> The "Mandatory to implement" bit above could address this
> > > > issue.
> > > > If an unrecognized message element is found to have the bit set,
> > > > then
> > > > the whole message needs to be rejected. If the bit is not set, the
> > > > message element may be safely ignored.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 5) The config has a concept of "default value" for each
> > > > configuration
> > > > attribute. However, the default values are not clearly specified.
> > > > This
> > > > needs to be resolved to be able to support "default values".
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Another good point raised by David.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 6) the documentation of which "binding specific" message elements
> > > > are to
> > > > be included with CAPWAP messages is not consistent, and is difficult
> > > > to
> > > > follow.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Has this been addressed in the latest (-02) document?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 7) There are some message elements that cause "actions". This
> > > > approach
> > > > to protocol design is problematic and should be eliminated.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Could you be more specific as well as provide guidance on what
> > > > you
> > > > would like to see?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 8) The message types are inconsistently named, and do not follow the
> > > > conventions of well designed protocols. Can the operations be named
> > > > consistently with the following terminology:
> > > >   1) request/response (used to get/set/perform action)
> > > >   2) report/ack (use to tell the other side something)
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Could you provide your thoughts on which messages fall within
> > > > which one of your categories?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 9) Many of the configuration items, and status items are not listed
> > > > in
> > > > one section with definitions. (Well make it two sections - one for
> > > > CAPWAP and the other which is "binding" specific.) For example, not
> > > > all
> > > > of the time period lengths are identified and specified in section
> > > > 4.5.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Unfortunately, the document has gone back and forth a few
> > > > times
> > > > and before we opt to change the structure of the document, I'd like
> > > > to
> > > > ensure that we have broad agreement on what we want - with the
> > > > understanding that we will never make everyone happy.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 10) each operation should have listed in which states it can be sent
> > > > and
> > > > received
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> I do not understand your comment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 11) All strings, such as WTP location, should be changed from
> > > > US-ASCII
> > > > encoding to UTF-8 encoding.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Agreed.
> > > >
> > > > 12) The term "mobile" is not really accurate when describing
> > > > wireless
> > > > interfaces, since wireless does not imply      mobile. Can we just
> > > > use
> > > > the techie term "STA" instead.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> I agree we should use the term Station, or STA for short.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 13) The WTP Descriptor message element contains too much
> > > > information,
> > > > lacks clarity on the WTP encryption field and includes version
> > > > numbers,
> > > > which should be in string form.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> To the first point, I disagree. I think there is value in
> > > > knowing
> > > > everything about the WTP. The AC vendors can expose whatever
> > > > information
> > > > they want, but I don't believe anything is unnecessary.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> To the second point, this is one of those areas where the
> > > > concept
> > > > of the technology binding creates complexity. Given that we cannot
> > > > simply discuss 802.11i at this point, the only thing we can do is
> > > > punt
> > > > to another section in the technology binding section. That said, I
> > > > agree
> > > > with Dave that the 802.11 binding section is too light in this area.
> > > > However, I would much prefer that instead of trying to address this
> > > > specific issue, we discuss whether we should even be supporting the
> > > > mode
> > > > of operation where 802.11i is performed in the AC - especially with
> > > > the
> > > > introduction of DTLS to secure the data plane. Right now, it just
> > > > feels
> > > > like we have too many options and I am worried that interoperability
> > > > will be severely impacted (not to mention protocol complexity).
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> To the last point, I have no issues with including text
> > > > stating
> > > > that the version numbers should be in string form.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 14) The WTP Descriptor information is not required at Join time.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Well, as far as I can tell, I think there's value in knowing
> > > > whether the WTP can even be supported by the AC. So the more info is
> > > >
> > > > provided by the WTP, the better the AC can determine whether it
> > > > should
> > > > just ignore the WTP or not. This could be done because it knows that
> > > > the
> > > > firmware running on the WTP is not compatible, and it has no new
> > > > firmware to download.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 15) Are the values in the WTP Frame Encryption a capabilities bit,
> > > > or an
> > > > enum?
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Looks like an enum to me. Not sure what Dave would prefer the
> > > > text
> > > > to read. There are various other similar comments throughout, which
> > > > I
> > > > will not repeat here.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 16) The Discovery Response is broken. The AC SHOULD NOT be providing
> > > > any
> > > > info to a WTP (or something that claims to be a WTP). Also, the AC
> > > > should tell the WTP what to do next, with choices: 1) Ok to try to
> > > > join,
> > > > 2) don't try to join, 3) try                     discover on a list
> > > > of
> > > > returned ACs)
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> I don't believe there is an issue with sending the AC's
> > > > information to the WTP, but would solicit input from the list. That
> > > > said, some of the information in the AC Descriptor is required, such
> > > > as
> > > > the current load on the AC. No point is trying to join if he AC
> > > > indicates it's already at max capacity.
> > > > <PRC> I believe if the AC does not return the response, then it
> > > > implies
> > > > (2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is handled during the join or
> > > > configure
> > > > process, which I believe is right.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 17) Is AC Name text?
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Yes, and same with WTP Name.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 18) Primary Discovery are not required.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Disagree. Required for failover.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 19) The text does not make it clear that the contents of the WTP
> > > > Location is informative only, and as Dave calls it, a "scratchpad".
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Well, to be honest, I thought the example "next to the fridge"
> > > >
> > > > made it clear that the information did not derive from any
> > > > scientific
> > > > formula. The description also states this is a user-defined. I
> > > > believe
> > > > this should be good enough.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 20) Session is not required
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> I believe you may be correct that with the transition to DTLS,
> > > > this is no longer required.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 21) need to send "common name" as found in the WTP CERT so that the
> > > > AC
> > > > can verify
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> The protocol currently relies on the MAC address being the key
> > > > that binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't see a need to change
> > > > this.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 22) Result code in Join Response is not sufficient, for instance WTP
> > > > HW
> > > > not supported.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Well, the protocol does not require this because the Discovery
> > > > Response would never be sent (as the protocol stands today).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 23) AC IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering, which is unnecessary.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Agreed.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 24) Change Echo to Keepalive or heartbeat.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> I call it potato....
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 25) What if all of the message elements do not fit within a single
> > > > CAPWAP control frame.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> We should address this.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 26) AC Name with Index is all messed up...
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Not really. You simply include more than one, and the index
> > > > field
> > > > is clearly the priority. Don't understand the Multi-AC comment. No
> > > > inter-AC protocol implied here.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not configure.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Agreed, but wonder even more why we are duplicating this
> > > > information across both the WTP Descriptor and the WTP Board Data
> > > > message elements.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 28) The WTP Static IPv4 Address should not have the Static bit, but
> > > > instead state that 0.0.0.0 means a static address is not to be used.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> I don't have an issue with this request, but in the end we
> > > > have
> > > > the same function. The reason why I state this is that we can refine
> > > > this protocol until the cows come home, and at one point we need to
> > > > draw
> > > > a line in the sand.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons
> > > > listed
> > > > are not clear enough.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the
> > > > configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can
> > > > clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's BSSID
> > > > field should be an array.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Disagree.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's
> > > > Country
> > > > Code is not clear enough.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> The text points to the actual MIB element in the 802.11-1999
> > > > standard, which very clearly defines the contents of the field. I
> > > > don't
> > > > think there's value in replicating the format of this field in the
> > > > CAPWAP standard.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 31) There seems like an awful lot of additional configuration
> > > > message
> > > > elements that need to be specified here!
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Having built a protocol based on this, it's not clear to me
> > > > what's
> > > > missing. I think it would be useful if you provided concrete details
> > > > on
> > > > what's missing.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 32) Configuration Status is just plain broken because any
> > > > configuration
> > > > change operation may fail and there is no           response to the
> > > > configuration changes specified in this command.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> There certainly is - I guess I don't understand the concern.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 33) Use of Change State Event should instead be Radio Admin State.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Perhaps the two are not described properly. The first is used
> > > > by
> > > > the WTP to inform the AC that something has occurred with a radio.
> > > > The
> > > > second is used by the AC to enable/disable a radio.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 34) Report Timer needs to be in section 4.5 or 11
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> ok
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 35) Should Idle Timeout be per radio, or per WTP, and should the
> > > > value
> > > > be defined in section 4.5 or 11.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine as it is.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and should be removed.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Disagree. I believe it is necessary to create enough
> > > > resiliency in
> > > > the protocol/service.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 37) How are the "Rate Set" and "Supported Rates" encoded.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> This was fixed in the -02
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the configuration, but instead in
> > > > the
> > > > join.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Not sure this really matters....
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so strange and is being managed like
> > > > no
> > > > other configuration data.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> I do not understand the comment
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 40) Decryption Error Report Period is not defined in section 4.5 or
> > > > 11
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> ok, and note that the information has been moved to the IEEE
> > > > 802.11 RSNA Error Report From Mobile
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 41) Configuration Update Response. today, there are primarily two
> > > > types
> > > > of configuration models. The first is when config is changed, it is
> > > > only
> > > > changed in the volatile copy (the memory or running). An explicit
> > > > command is needed to save the config to nonvolatile storage. The
> > > > second
> > > > model has config both running (volatile) and saved (nonvolatile)
> > > > config
> > > > changed when a config change is made. And there might be a special
> > > > command to have a config change apply to only one. In this case,
> > > > there
> > > > is no need for a "save config to nonvolatile" command. It is not
> > > > clear
> > > > what is suppose to be supported here in CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP
> > > > support devices with no or very limited nonvolatile storage for
> > > > config!
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> CAPWAP does not support WTPs with no nonvolatile storage. The
> > > > protocol has the AC push configs to the WTP, which saves them at the
> > > >
> > > > time they are received. I do not believe anything else is required.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 42) Configuration Update Response includes the Result Code message
> > > > element, which includes values that do not appear to be relevant for
> > > >
> > > > this message, and there are plenty of other failure cases
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> ok, but note that we are sharing a common message element. Any
> > > > suggestions on how to address your issue?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 43) Change State Event Report. This seems a little silly to be sent
> > > > in
> > > > the "configure" state. It seems only appropriate for the "run"
> > > > state.
> > > > Some might argue that even in the "run" state it shouldn't be sent
> > > > after
> > > > a "config update" request that changes the operational state.
> > > > However,
> > > > in the "run" state, it may take a while to have the operational
> > > > state
> > > > change to follow the admin state. Thus, I think it is OK in the
> > > > "run"
> > > > state after config changes."
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> I believe this was addressed in -02.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 44) Clear Config Request. this operation has several problems, which
> > > > include:
> > > >    1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec says that this can only be done
> > > > in
> > > > the "run" state. This is silly. It should also be possible in the
> > > > "configure" state.
> > > > <PRC> I wonder why the AC would even consider clearing the WTP's
> > > > state
> > > > before it even knows how it is configured.
> > > >
> > > >    2) the value of "manufacturing defaults" is not defined, and a
> > > > poor
> > > > term to use, since it implies that that each manufacturer can have
> > > > different values. If so, then the AC will have no knowledge of the
> > > > config on the WTP! The problem of "default config values" has
> > > > already be
> > > > mentioned above. After each config attribute has been defined with a
> > > > default value, then the proper term would be "CAPWAP config
> > > > defaults".
> > > > <PRC> Yes, you've raised this point already, and I agree that it
> > > > does
> > > > need to be addressed.
> > > >
> > > >    3) This operation is not defined to have a response. This is
> > > > broken,
> > > > since any config change can fail. Also, it is not defined what
> > > > happens
> > > > next. Does this cause the WTP to reboot an start a "clean
> > > > discovery"?
> > > > <PRC> This was addressed in -02
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are actually three different
> > > > "Image
> > > > Data Request" messages. Which one is determined          by which of
> > > > the
> > > > three message elements is contained. This is completely silly! There
> > > >
> > > > should be three separate operations! Additionally, how does the WTP
> > > > know
> > > > which image to get? The AC should be making that decision.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> I believe the WTP is the only device that knows what it's
> > > > filename
> > > > should be. Why would an AC vendor know about file naming conventions
> > > > used by the WTP vendors? I believe your other issues are discussed
> > > > in
> > > > the next items.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 46) Image Data Response. this is silly. This operation can fail!
> > > > There
> > > > needs to be message element that indicates the          result.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> How so? This is only used to send firmware to the WTP. Not
> > > > clear
> > > > what could fail... Reading the image from flash?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 47) Image Data Request. when starting over again at the WTP start
> > > > state,
> > > > the WTP shouldn't use the "normal" discovery process, but instead
> > > > "fast
> > > > track" a connection back to the AC that just downloaded the image.
> > > > With
> > > > a little more          work, we could probably figure out a way to
> > > > reuse
> > > > the old DTLS session.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> To what gain? What is so expensive about the discovery, and
> > > > what
> > > > happened if the AC was not longer reachable?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 48) opcode - if this is here, might as well also have a value that
> > > > indicates last block of the image file, instead of looking at the
> > > > block
> > > > size.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> But we're just changing for the sake of changing - the
> > > > protocol
> > > > works as-is.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 49) since this operation does not have the block number as a
> > > > parameter,
> > > > the WTP must determine the block number via the CAPWAP message
> > > > header
> > > > sequence number.  NOTE: DTLS does not provide in-order delivery of
> > > > packets. Also, this requires the WTP to remember state. This message
> > > > element should be re-engineered to have the following subfields:
> > > > [edited]
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> The control header includes a sequence number, and while we
> > > > can
> > > > change the current protocol to match your recommendations, the
> > > > protocol
> > > > does work. If it ain't broken...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 50) Image Data Response. this is silly. This operation can
> > > > fail!  For
> > > > example, the WTP can run out of space to store          the block,
> > > > or
> > > > there could be a failure in writing the block to storage. (Or as
> > > > "Image
> > > > Data Request"(9.1a) is presently specified, the checksum match could
> > > >
> > > > fail.) There needs to be message element that indicates the result.)
> > > > Note: don't need a block number field, since request and responses
> > > > are
> > > > paired.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> We can include a result code
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-). Seriously, the
> > > > protocol
> > > > does work, so what exactly are you looking for?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This operation can fail!
> > > > There
> > > > needs to be message element that indicates the          result.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> See above comment.
> > > >
> > > > 53) Reset Request. ...
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> The comment is irrelevant now that Clear Config has changed.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 54) Reset Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There
> > > > needs
> > > > to be message element that indicates the          result.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> I sense a trend. I will stop including these messages from now
> > > > on.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this reported if the
> > > > condition
> > > > remains?
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Only required once, I think, but we may want to include some
> > > > text
> > > > covering that.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 56) the list of events seems understated!
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Text and conditions please
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have - remove.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Disagree. Providing diagnostics capabilities is required.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 58) Mobile Config Request. the actual details of how this works on
> > > > both
> > > > splitMAC and especially localMAC are not well specified. That is,
> > > > only
> > > > the figures and text in sections 11.1.1 and 11.1.2 provide any clue
> > > > as
> > > > to events that would cause an AC to send this message type. Also,
> > > > there
> > > > are restrictions on combinations of parameters that can be included
> > > > in
> > > > the message.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> I wonder whether other folks agree that more details are
> > > > required.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 59) it doesn't say if one message can be used to update more than
> > > > one
> > > > STA. It should be able.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> No, otherwise you end up with the problem of associating
> > > > specific
> > > > message elements with a given mobile. One mobile per request.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 60) IEEE 802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC address be included so
> > > >
> > > > this message element can be matched with a (4.4.8)Add Mobile message
> > > > element?
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> I believe this is to your previous point, but the protocol
> > > > assumes
> > > > one mobile per request.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 61) IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for data traffic to the
> > > > AC? If
> > > > so, then why is this an 802.11 message element
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Intended to be a way to push policies to the WTP to prioritize
> > > > mobile traffic.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why is a new message type that
> > > > is
> > > > 802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11 WLANs? It seems like the
> > > > existing "(8.4)Configuration Update Request" message could be used.
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> To be more specific only.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 63) note here there are information elements to create, delete, and
> > > > modify WLANs. However, for message type "(10.1)Mobile Config
> > > > Request",
> > > > there is only add and delete (and the "add" used to modify).
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> Correct. The protocol requires the AC to resend a new add with
> > > > a
> > > > different policy. No specific reason, but if this is deemed
> > > > inconsistent, we could change it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 64) IEEE 802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping of WLAN IDs to
> > > > BSSIDs
> > > > seems like it needs a little more work
> > > >
> > > > <PRC> What exactly would you like to see?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Pat Calhoun
> > > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> > > > Cisco Systems
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: David T. Perkins [mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 4:31 PM
> > > > > To: capwap@frascone.com
> > > > > Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations
> > > > >
> > > > > HI,
> > > > >
> > > > > I've attached a long file that summarizes the operations in
> > > > > CAPWAP-01.
> > > > >
> > > > > Enjoy,
> > > > > /david t. perkins
> > > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> > > >
> > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> > >
> > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> > >
> > >
> >
>

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Yes, that's the only reason I can see for including the info.<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 11/28/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com">pcalhoun@cisco.com
</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">



<div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Do you 
anticipate the AC may decide not to allow the join to proceed because of the 
reboot statistics? Note that accepting the join is now rather trivial compared 
to the actual DTLS session that had to be established 
beforehand.</font></span></div><span class="q">
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<p align="left"><font size="2">Pat Calhoun<br>CTO, Wireless Networking Business 
Unit<br>Cisco Systems</font></p>
<div>&nbsp;</div><br>
</span><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
  <div align="left" dir="ltr" lang="en-us">
  <hr>
  <font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span class="q"><b>From:</b> Dorothy Stanley 
  [mailto:<a href="mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dstanley1389@gmail.com</a>] <br></span><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 28, 2006 
  2:47 PM<br><b>To:</b> Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)<br><b>Cc:</b> Michael Montemurro; 
  <a href="mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to 
  Issue 177 WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on 
  CAPWAP-01 operations<br></font><br></div><div><span class="e" id="q_10f30c8485746169_5">
  <div></div>Pat,<br><br>In the current draft, the AC has no indication of the 
  stability of the <br>WTP before it accepts the Join Request. The value for 
  adding<br>WTP Reboot statistics to the Join Request is&nbsp; to provide the 
  reboot statistics, <br>if they are available.<br><br>There seemed to be three 
  options to addressing this comment:<br>1) Reject the comment, no change to the 
  draft.<br>2) Provide the option for the WTP to send the Reboot statistics to 
  the AC in the Join Request<br>3) Require the WTP to send the Reboot <a href="http://statistics.to" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">statistics.to</a> the AC in the Join 
  Request<br><br>I proposed option 2, allowing the WTP to provide them if 
  available. This option<br>seems to allow for your stated 
  preference.<br><br>Dorothy<br><br>
  <div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/9/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Pat Calhoun 
  (pacalhou)</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">pcalhoun@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
    <div>
    <div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">I personally prefer to 
    start maintaining configuration and status state on the WTP after the join 
    is complete. Is there a problem that arises with the current draft? Is this 
    just a personal preference, or is there a bug?</font></span></div>
    <div>&nbsp;</div>
    <p align="left"><font size="2">Pat Calhoun<br>CTO, Wireless Networking Business 
    Unit<br>Cisco Systems</font></p>
    <div>&nbsp;</div><br>
    <blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
      <div align="left" dir="ltr" lang="en-us">
      <hr>
      <font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> Dorothy Stanley [mailto:<a href="mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dstanley1389@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:
</b> Friday, 
      September 29, 2006 2:22 PM<br><b>To:</b> Michael Montemurro<br><b>Cc:</b> 
      <a href="mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Capwap] Proposed 
      resolution to <span name="st">Issue</span> <span name="st">177</span> WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was 
      Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations<br></font><br></div>
      <div></div>
      <div>All,</div>
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div><span name="st">Issue</span> <span name="st">177</span>, &quot;WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join&quot;</div>
      <div>is listed below:</div><pre><em>29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed<br>are not clear enough.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the<br>configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can
<br><br>clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value.</em></pre>
      <div>Believing that there may be times when it is desirable for the 
      WTP&nbsp;to provide </div>
      <div>information to the AC about its stability, the proposed resolution to 
      <span name="st">Issue</span> <span name="st">177</span> is <br>to insert the following text at the end 
      of</div>
      <div>Section 6.1 &quot;Join Request&quot;:</div>
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div>The following message element may be included in the Join Request 
      message:</div>
      <div>- WTP Reboot Statistics, see Section 4.4.44.</div>
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div>Comments please,</div>
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div>Thanks,</div>
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div>Dorothy<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
      <div><span class="gmail_quote">On 6/30/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Michael 
      Montemurro</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">montemurro.michael@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span> 
      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
        <div>David, Pat,</div>
        <div>&nbsp;</div>
        <div>I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points <span name="st">in</span> David's email. Happy hunting!</div>
        <div>&nbsp;</div>
        <div>Mike<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
        <div><span>
        <div><span class="gmail_quote">On 6/27/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Pat 
        Calhoun (pacalhou)</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">pcalhoun@cisco.com 
        </a>&gt; wrote:</span> 
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Going 
          through David's lengthy document, he has raised an 
          interesting<br>number of points that I believe require issues to be 
          created. At one <br>point I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in order to 
          be brief, and<br>introducing my own numbering scheme.<br><br>1) Can 
          message elements be in any order? (I believe they should 
          be)<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes, and I suspect we need to include text to 
          make it more <br>obvious.<br><br><br>2) Are all specified message 
          elements required? (The obvious answer is<br>&quot;yes&quot;, but this document 
          doesn't discuss versioning. For example, what<br>if in a new version 
          of CAPWAP an additional message element was to be <br>added. Would a 
          new message type be created and the additional message<br>element 
          added to it, or the existing type reused?)<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; This is 
          a great question, and one that does need to be addressed<br>in the 
          spec. In the Diameter protocol we dealt with this <span name="st">issue</span> by <br>including a &quot;Mandatory to implement&quot; 
          bit. If any AVP was received, whose<br>bit was set, yet was not 
          recognized, then the request had to be<br>rejected.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
          We could consider something similar here, but I believe with the 
          <br>firmware download component of the protocol it may be less of an 
          <span name="st">issue</span> -<br>although not 
          guaranteed. I would hope (and expect) that as the CAPWAP<br>protocol 
          extends, the AC would push new firmware to the WTP. This does 
          <br>require that the initial part of the state machine be fairly 
          static, and<br>this could be an area where the &quot;Mandatory to 
          implement&quot; bit could be<br>useful as it would allow the AC to fall 
          back to older protocol behavior. <br><br>3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a 
          good job of indicating which message elements<br>can be 
          repeated.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Another good point. When we list the 
          message elements, we should<br>note whether the frequently is 0-1 
          (meaning absent or once), 1 (only <br>once) or 0+ (meaning any number 
          of them could be present.<br><br><br>4) Can &quot;additional&quot; message 
          elements be added to a message? (I believe<br>so for reporting 
          capabilities, statistics, and&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; events. 
          For<br>configuration, there is nothing in the protocol that says what 
          happens<br>when one end gets an configuration&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
          element it doesn't know about.<br>Should it be ignored, and the other 
          elements processed, or should the<br>complete 
          operation&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; failed?) <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; The 
          &quot;Mandatory to implement&quot; bit above could address this <span name="st">issue</span>.<br>If an unrecognized message element is 
          found to have the bit set, then<br>the whole message needs to be 
          rejected. If the bit is not set, the <br>message element may be safely 
          ignored.<br><br><br>5) The config has a concept of &quot;default value&quot; for 
          each configuration<br>attribute. However, the default values are not 
          clearly specified. This<br>needs to be resolved to be able to support 
          &quot;default values&quot;. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Another good point raised by 
          David.<br><br><br>6) the documentation of which &quot;binding specific&quot; 
          message elements are to<br>be included with CAPWAP messages is not 
          consistent, and is difficult to <br>follow.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Has 
          this been addressed in the latest (-02) document?<br><br><br>7) There 
          are some message elements that cause &quot;actions&quot;. This approach<br>to 
          protocol design is problematic and should be eliminated. 
          <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Could you be more specific as well as provide 
          guidance on what you<br>would like to see?<br><br><br>8) The message 
          types are inconsistently named, and do not follow the<br>conventions 
          of well designed protocols. Can the operations be named 
          <br>consistently with the following terminology:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;1) 
          request/response (used to get/set/perform action)<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;2) 
          report/ack (use to tell the other side something)<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
          Could you provide your thoughts on which messages fall within 
          <br>which one of your categories?<br><br><br>9) Many of the 
          configuration items, and status items are not listed in<br>one section 
          with definitions. (Well make it two sections - one for<br>CAPWAP and 
          the other which is &quot;binding&quot; specific.) For example, not all <br>of 
          the time period lengths are identified and specified in section 
          4.5.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Unfortunately, the document has gone back and 
          forth a few times<br>and before we opt to change the structure of the 
          document, I'd like to <br>ensure that we have broad agreement on what 
          we want - with the<br>understanding that we will never make everyone 
          happy.<br><br><br>10) each operation should have listed in which 
          states it can be sent and<br>received<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I do not 
          understand your comment.<br><br><br>11) All strings, such as WTP 
          location, should be changed from US-ASCII<br>encoding to UTF-8 
          encoding.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Agreed.<br><br>12) The term &quot;mobile&quot; is 
          not really accurate when describing wireless <br>interfaces, since 
          wireless does not imply&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;mobile. Can 
          we just use<br>the techie term &quot;STA&quot; instead.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I 
          agree we should use the term Station, or STA for short.<br><br><br>13) 
          The WTP Descriptor message element contains too much information, 
          <br>lacks clarity on the WTP encryption field and includes version 
          numbers,<br>which should be in string form.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; To the 
          first point, I disagree. I think there is value in 
          knowing<br>everything about the WTP. The AC vendors can expose 
          whatever information <br>they want, but I don't believe anything is 
          unnecessary.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; To the second point, this is one of 
          those areas where the concept<br>of the technology binding creates 
          complexity. Given that we cannot<br>simply discuss 802.11i at this 
          point, the only thing we can do is punt<br>to another section in the 
          technology binding section. That said, I agree<br>with Dave that the 
          802.11 binding section is too light in this area.<br>However, I would 
          much prefer that instead of trying to address this <br>specific <span name="st">issue</span>, we discuss whether we should 
          even be supporting the mode<br>of operation where 802.11i is performed 
          in the AC - especially with the<br>introduction of DTLS to secure the 
          data plane. Right now, it just feels <br>like we have too many options 
          and I am worried that interoperability<br>will be severely impacted 
          (not to mention protocol complexity).<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; To the last 
          point, I have no issues with including text stating <br>that the 
          version numbers should be in string form.<br><br><br>14) The WTP 
          Descriptor information is not required at Join 
          time.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Well, as far as I can tell, I think there's 
          value in knowing<br>whether the WTP can even be supported by the AC. 
          So the more info is <br>provided by the WTP, the better the AC can 
          determine whether it should<br>just ignore the WTP or not. This could 
          be done because it knows that the<br>firmware running on the WTP is 
          not compatible, and it has no new<br>firmware to 
          download.<br><br><br>15) Are the values in the WTP Frame Encryption a 
          capabilities bit, or an<br>enum?<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Looks like an enum 
          to me. Not sure what Dave would prefer the text<br>to read. There are 
          various other similar comments throughout, which I <br>will not repeat 
          here.<br><br><br>16) The Discovery Response is broken. The AC SHOULD 
          NOT be providing any<br>info to a WTP (or something that claims to be 
          a WTP). Also, the AC<br>should tell the WTP what to do next, with 
          choices: 1) Ok to try to join, <br>2)
don't try to join, 3)
try&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
discover on a list of<br>returned ACs)<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I don't 
          believe there is an <span name="st">issue</span> with 
          sending the AC's<br>information to the WTP, but would solicit input 
          from the list. That <br>said, some of the information in the AC 
          Descriptor is required, such as<br>the current load on the AC. No 
          point is trying to join if he AC<br>indicates it's already at max 
          capacity.<br>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe if the AC does not return the 
          response, then it implies <br>(2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is 
          handled during the join or configure<br>process, which I believe is 
          right.<br><br><br>17) Is AC Name text?<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes, and 
          same with WTP Name.<br><br><br>18) Primary Discovery are not required. 
          <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. Required for failover.<br><br><br>19) 
          The text does not make it clear that the contents of the 
          WTP<br>Location is informative only, and as Dave calls it, a 
          &quot;scratchpad&quot;.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Well, to be honest, I thought the 
          example &quot;next to the fridge&quot; <br>made it clear that the information 
          did not derive from any scientific<br>formula. The description also 
          states this is a user-defined. I believe<br>this should be good 
          enough.<br><br><br>20) Session is not required<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I 
          believe you may be correct that with the transition to DTLS,<br>this 
          is no longer required.<br><br><br>21) need to send &quot;common name&quot; as 
          found in the WTP CERT so that the AC<br>can verify<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
          The protocol currently relies on the MAC address being the key<br>that 
          binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't see a need to 
          change<br>this.<br><br><br>22) Result code in Join Response is not 
          sufficient, for instance WTP HW <br>not supported.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
          Well, the protocol does not require this because the 
          Discovery<br>Response would never be sent (as the protocol stands 
          today).<br><br><br>23) AC IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering, which 
          is unnecessary. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Agreed.<br><br><br>24) Change Echo 
          to Keepalive or heartbeat.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I call it 
          potato....<br><br><br>25) What if all of the message elements do not 
          fit within a single<br>CAPWAP control frame. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; We 
          should address this.<br><br><br>26) AC Name with Index is all messed 
          up...<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Not really. You simply include more than one, 
          and the index field<br>is clearly the priority. Don't understand the 
          Multi-AC comment. No <br>inter-AC protocol implied 
          here.<br><br><br>27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not 
          configure.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Agreed, but wonder even more why we are 
          duplicating this<br>information across both the WTP Descriptor and the 
          WTP Board Data <br>message elements.<br><br><br>28) The WTP Static 
          IPv4 Address should not have the Static bit, but<br>instead state that 
          <a href="http://0.0.0.0/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">0.0.0.0 </a>means a static 
          address is not to be used.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I don't have an <span name="st">issue</span> with this request, but in the 
          end we have <br>the same function. The reason why I state this is that 
          we can refine<br>this protocol until the cows come home, and at one 
          point we need to draw <br>a line in the sand.<br><br><br>29) WTP 
          Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed <br>are 
          not clear enough.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Doesn't really matter whether 
          this is included in the<br>configuration or the join, but if the WG 
          agrees to move it. We can <br>clarify some of the reasons, as long as 
          it provides value. <br><br><br>30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio 
          Configuration message element's BSSID<br>field should be an 
          array.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree.<br><br><br>30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP 
          Radio Configuration message element's Country<br>Code is not clear 
          enough.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; The text points to the actual MIB element 
          in the 802.11-1999<br>standard, which very clearly defines the 
          contents of the field. I don't <br>think there's value in replicating 
          the format of this field in the <br>CAPWAP standard.<br><br><br>31) 
          There seems like an awful lot of additional configuration 
          message<br>elements that need to be specified here!<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
          Having built a protocol based on this, it's not clear to me what's 
          <br>missing. I think it would be useful if you provided concrete 
          details on<br>what's missing.<br><br><br>32) Configuration Status is 
          just plain broken because any configuration <br>change operation may 
          fail and there is 
          no&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
          response to the <br>configuration changes specified in this 
          command.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; There certainly is - I guess I don't 
          understand the concern.<br><br><br>33) Use of Change State Event 
          should instead be Radio Admin State. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Perhaps the 
          two are not described properly. The first is used by <br>the WTP to 
          inform the AC that something has occurred with a radio. The<br>second 
          is used by the AC to enable/disable a radio.<br><br><br>34) Report 
          Timer needs to be in section 4.5 or 11<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
          ok<br><br><br>35) Should Idle Timeout be per radio, or per WTP, and 
          should the value<br>be defined in section 4.5 or 
          11.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine as it 
          is. <br><br><br>36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and should be 
          removed. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. I believe it is necessary to 
          create enough resiliency in<br>the protocol/service.<br><br><br>37) 
          How are the &quot;Rate Set&quot; and &quot;Supported Rates&quot; encoded. 
          <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; This was fixed in the -02 <br><br><br>38) AC 
          Timestamp doesn't belong in the configuration, but instead in 
          the<br>join.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Not sure this really 
          matters....<br><br><br>39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so strange and 
          is being managed like no <br>other configuration 
          data.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I do not understand the 
          comment<br><br><br>40) Decryption Error Report Period is not defined 
          in section 4.5 or 11<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; ok, and note that the 
          information has been moved to the IEEE <br>802.11 RSNA Error Report 
          From Mobile<br><br><br>41) Configuration Update Response. today, there 
          are primarily two types<br>of configuration models. The first is when 
          config is changed, it is only<br>changed in the volatile copy (the 
          memory or running). An explicit <br>command is needed to save the 
          config to nonvolatile storage. The second<br>model has config both 
          running (volatile) and saved (nonvolatile) config<br>changed when a 
          config change is made. And there might be a special<br>command to have 
          a config change apply to only one. In this case, there<br>is no need 
          for a &quot;save config to nonvolatile&quot; command. It is not clear<br>what is 
          suppose to be supported here in CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP 
          <br>support devices with no or very limited nonvolatile storage for 
          config!<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; CAPWAP does not support WTPs with no 
          nonvolatile storage. The<br>protocol has the AC push configs to the 
          WTP, which saves them at the <br>time they are received. I do not 
          believe anything else is required.<br><br><br>42) Configuration Update 
          Response includes the Result Code message<br>element, which includes 
          values that do not appear to be relevant for <br>this message, and 
          there are plenty of other failure cases<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; ok, but 
          note that we are sharing a common message element. Any<br>suggestions 
          on how to address your <span name="st">issue</span>?<br><br><br>43) Change State Event Report. This 
          seems a little silly to be sent in <br>the &quot;configure&quot; state. It seems 
          only appropriate for the &quot;run&quot; state.<br>Some might argue that even in 
          the &quot;run&quot; state it shouldn't be sent after<br>a &quot;config update&quot; 
          request that changes the operational state. However, <br>in the &quot;run&quot; 
          state, it may take a while to have the operational state<br>change to 
          follow the admin state. Thus, I think it is OK in the &quot;run&quot;<br>state 
          after config changes.&quot;<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe this was addressed 
          in -02. <br><br><br>44) Clear Config Request. this operation has 
          several problems, which<br>include:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1) currently, the 
          CAPWAP-01 spec says that this can only be done in<br>the &quot;run&quot; state. 
          This is silly. It should also be possible in the <br>&quot;configure&quot; 
          state.<br>&lt;PRC&gt; I wonder why the AC would even consider clearing 
          the WTP's state<br>before it even knows how it is 
          configured.<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; 2) the value of &quot;manufacturing 
          defaults&quot; is not defined, and a poor <br>term to use, since it implies 
          that that each manufacturer can have<br>different values. If so, then 
          the AC will have no knowledge of the<br>config on the WTP! The problem 
          of &quot;default config values&quot; has already be <br>mentioned above. After 
          each config attribute has been defined with a<br>default value, then 
          the proper term would be &quot;CAPWAP config defaults&quot;.<br>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes, 
          you've raised this point already, and I agree that it does <br>need to 
          be addressed.<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; 3) This operation is not defined to 
          have a response. This is broken,<br>since any config change can fail. 
          Also, it is not defined what happens<br>next. Does this cause the WTP 
          to reboot an start a &quot;clean discovery&quot;? <br>&lt;PRC&gt; This was 
          addressed in -02<br><br><br>45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are 
          actually three different &quot;Image<br>Data Request&quot; messages. Which one 
          is 
          determined&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;by 
          which of the<br>three message elements is contained. This is 
          completely silly! There <br>should be three separate operations! 
          Additionally, how does the WTP know<br>which image to get? The AC 
          should be making that decision.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe the WTP 
          is the only device that knows what it's filename <br>should be. Why 
          would an AC vendor know about file naming conventions<br>used by the 
          WTP vendors? I believe your other issues are discussed in<br>the next 
          items.<br><br><br>46) Image Data Response. this is silly. This 
          operation can fail! There <br>needs to be message element that 
          indicates 
          the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
          How so? This is only used to send firmware to the WTP. Not 
          clear<br>what could fail... Reading the image from 
          flash?<br><br><br>47) Image Data Request. when starting over again at 
          the WTP start state, <br>the WTP shouldn't use the &quot;normal&quot; discovery 
          process, but instead &quot;fast<br>track&quot; a connection back to the AC that 
          just downloaded the image. With<br>a little 
          more&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;work, 
          we could probably figure out a way to reuse <br>the old DTLS 
          session.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; To what gain? What is so expensive about 
          the discovery, and what<br>happened if the AC was not longer 
          reachable?<br><br><br>48) opcode - if this is here, might as well also 
          have a value that <br>indicates last block of the image file, instead 
          of looking at the block<br>size.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; But we're just 
          changing for the sake of changing - the protocol<br>works 
          as-is.<br><br><br>49) since this operation does not have the block 
          number as a parameter, <br>the WTP must determine the block number via 
          the CAPWAP message header<br>sequence number.&nbsp;&nbsp;NOTE: DTLS 
          does not provide in-order delivery of<br>packets. Also, this requires 
          the WTP to remember state. This message<br>element should be 
          re-engineered to have the following subfields: 
          <br>[edited]<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; The control header includes a sequence 
          number, and while we can<br>change the current protocol to match your 
          recommendations, the protocol<br>does work. If it ain't 
          broken...<br><br><br>50) Image Data Response. this is silly. This 
          operation can fail!&nbsp;&nbsp;For <br>example, the WTP can run out of 
          space to 
          store&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the 
          block, or<br>there could be a failure in writing the block to storage. 
          (Or as &quot;Image<br>Data Request&quot;(9.1a) is presently specified, the 
          checksum match could <br>fail.) There needs to be message element that 
          indicates the result.)<br>Note: don't need a block number field, since 
          request and responses are<br>paired.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; We can include 
          a result code<br><br><br>51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief 
          <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-). 
          Seriously, the protocol<br>does work, so what exactly are you looking 
          for?<br><br><br>52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This operation 
          can fail! There<br>needs to be message element that indicates 
          the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
          See above comment.<br><br>53) Reset Request. ...<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
          The comment is irrelevant now that Clear Config has 
          changed.<br><br><br>54) Reset Response. this is silly. This operation 
          can fail! There needs<br>to be message element that indicates 
          the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
          I sense a trend. I will stop including these messages from now 
          on.<br><br><br>55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this reported 
          if the condition<br>remains?<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Only required once, I 
          think, but we may want to include some text<br>covering 
          that.<br><br><br>56) the list of events seems understated! 
          <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Text and conditions please<br><br><br>57) Data 
          Transfer Request. Nice to have - remove.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. 
          Providing diagnostics capabilities is required.<br><br><br>58) Mobile 
          Config Request. the actual details of how this works on both 
          <br>splitMAC and especially localMAC are not well specified. That is, 
          only<br>the figures and text in sections 11.1.1 and 11.1.2 provide any 
          clue as<br>to events that would cause an AC to send this message type. 
          Also, there <br>are restrictions on combinations of parameters that 
          can be included in<br>the message.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I wonder whether 
          other folks agree that more details are required.<br><br><br>59) it 
          doesn't say if one message can be used to update more than one 
          <br>STA. It should be able.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; No, otherwise you end 
          up with the problem of associating specific<br>message elements with a 
          given mobile. One mobile per request.<br><br><br>60) IEEE 802.11 
          Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC address be included so <br>this message 
          element can be matched with a (4.4.8)Add Mobile 
          message<br>element?<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe this is to your 
          previous point, but the protocol assumes<br>one mobile per 
          request.<br><br><br>61) IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for data 
          traffic to the AC? If<br>so, then why is this an 802.11 message 
          element<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Intended to be a way to push policies to 
          the WTP to prioritize<br>mobile traffic.<br><br><br>62) IEEE 802.11 
          WLAN Config Request. why is a new message type that is<br>802.11 
          specific needed to modify 802.11 WLANs? It seems like the<br>existing 
          &quot;(8.4)Configuration Update Request&quot; message could be 
          used.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; To be more specific only. <br><br><br>63) 
          note here there are information elements to create, delete, 
          and<br>modify WLANs. However, for message type &quot;(10.1)Mobile Config 
          Request&quot;,<br>there is only add and delete (and the &quot;add&quot; used to 
          modify). <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Correct. The protocol requires the AC to 
          resend a new add with a<br>different policy. No specific reason, but 
          if this is deemed<br>inconsistent, we could change it.<br><br><br>64) 
          IEEE 802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping of WLAN IDs to BSSIDs 
          <br>seems like it needs a little more work<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; What 
          exactly would you like to see?<br><br><br>Pat Calhoun<br>CTO, Wireless 
          Networking Business Unit<br>Cisco Systems<br><br><br><br>&gt; 
          -----Original Message----- <br>&gt; From: David T. Perkins [mailto:<a href="mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dperkins@dsperkins.com</a>]<br>&gt; Sent: Thursday, June 
          22, 2006 4:31 PM <br>&gt; To: <a href="mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com 
          </a><br>&gt; Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01 
          operations<br>&gt;<br>&gt; HI, <br>&gt;<br>&gt; I've attached a long 
          file that summarizes the operations in<br>&gt; 
          CAPWAP-01.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Enjoy,<br>&gt; /david t. perkins 
          <br>&gt;<br>_________________________________________________________________ 
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Given the session is secured at the point the join is sent, I am
lukewarm with option 2.
=20
That said, given the config state occurs right afterwards, I see little
benefit, but am willing to agree.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 3:11 PM
	To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
	Cc: Michael Montemurro; capwap@frascone.com
	Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP
Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01
operations
=09
=09
	Yes, that's the only reason I can see for including the info.
=09
=09
	On 11/28/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com > wrote:


		Do you anticipate the AC may decide not to allow the
join to proceed because of the reboot statistics? Note that accepting
the join is now rather trivial compared to the actual DTLS session that
had to be established beforehand.
	=09
		=20

		Pat Calhoun
		CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
		Cisco Systems

		=20


________________________________

			From: Dorothy Stanley
[mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
			Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 2:47 PM
			To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
			Cc: Michael Montemurro; capwap@frascone.com
			Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to
Issue 177 WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary
on CAPWAP-01 operations
		=09
		=09
		=09
			Pat,
		=09
			In the current draft, the AC has no indication
of the stability of the=20
			WTP before it accepts the Join Request. The
value for adding
			WTP Reboot statistics to the Join Request is  to
provide the reboot statistics,=20
			if they are available.
		=09
			There seemed to be three options to addressing
this comment:
			1) Reject the comment, no change to the draft.
			2) Provide the option for the WTP to send the
Reboot statistics to the AC in the Join Request
			3) Require the WTP to send the Reboot
statistics.to the AC in the Join Request
		=09
			I proposed option 2, allowing the WTP to provide
them if available. This option
			seems to allow for your stated preference.
		=09
			Dorothy
		=09
		=09
			On 10/9/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
<pcalhoun@cisco.com> wrote:=20

				I personally prefer to start maintaining
configuration and status state on the WTP after the join is complete. Is
there a problem that arises with the current draft? Is this just a
personal preference, or is there a bug?
				=20

				Pat Calhoun
				CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
				Cisco Systems

				=20


________________________________

				From: Dorothy Stanley
[mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
				Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:22 PM
				To: Michael Montemurro
				Cc: capwap@frascone.com
				Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to
Issue 177 WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary
on CAPWAP-01 operations
			=09
			=09
				All,
				=20
				Issue 177, "WTP Reboot Statistics
belongs in the Join"
				is listed below:
				29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the
Join, and the reasons listed
				are not clear enough.
			=09
				<PRC> Doesn't really matter whether this
is included in the
				configuration or the join, but if the WG
agrees to move it. We can
			=09
			=09
				clarify some of the reasons, as long as
it provides value.
				Believing that there may be times when
it is desirable for the WTP to provide=20
				information to the AC about its
stability, the proposed resolution to Issue 177 is=20
				to insert the following text at the end
of
				Section 6.1 "Join Request":
				=20
				The following message element may be
included in the Join Request message:
				- WTP Reboot Statistics, see Section
4.4.44.
				=20
				Comments please,
				=20
				Thanks,
				=20
				Dorothy
			=09
				=20
				On 6/30/06, Michael Montemurro
<montemurro.michael@gmail.com> wrote:=20

				David, Pat,
				=20
				I created issues 150-198 to deal with
the points in David's email. Happy hunting!
				=20
				Mike
			=09
				=20
			=09
				On 6/27/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
<pcalhoun@cisco.com > wrote:=20

				Going through David's lengthy document,
he has raised an interesting
				number of points that I believe require
issues to be created. At one=20
				point I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments
in order to be brief, and
				introducing my own numbering scheme.
			=09
				1) Can message elements be in any order?
(I believe they should be)
			=09
				<PRC> Yes, and I suspect we need to
include text to make it more=20
				obvious.
			=09
			=09
				2) Are all specified message elements
required? (The obvious answer is
				"yes", but this document doesn't discuss
versioning. For example, what
				if in a new version of CAPWAP an
additional message element was to be=20
				added. Would a new message type be
created and the additional message
				element added to it, or the existing
type reused?)
			=09
				<PRC> This is a great question, and one
that does need to be addressed
				in the spec. In the Diameter protocol we
dealt with this issue by=20
				including a "Mandatory to implement"
bit. If any AVP was received, whose
				bit was set, yet was not recognized,
then the request had to be
				rejected.
			=09
				<PRC> We could consider something
similar here, but I believe with the=20
				firmware download component of the
protocol it may be less of an issue -
				although not guaranteed. I would hope
(and expect) that as the CAPWAP
				protocol extends, the AC would push new
firmware to the WTP. This does=20
				require that the initial part of the
state machine be fairly static, and
				this could be an area where the
"Mandatory to implement" bit could be
				useful as it would allow the AC to fall
back to older protocol behavior.=20
			=09
				3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of
indicating which message elements
				can be repeated.
			=09
				<PRC> Another good point. When we list
the message elements, we should
				note whether the frequently is 0-1
(meaning absent or once), 1 (only=20
				once) or 0+ (meaning any number of them
could be present.
			=09
			=09
				4) Can "additional" message elements be
added to a message? (I believe
				so for reporting capabilities,
statistics, and     events. For
				configuration, there is nothing in the
protocol that says what happens
				when one end gets an configuration
element it doesn't know about.
				Should it be ignored, and the other
elements processed, or should the
				complete operation     failed?)=20
			=09
				<PRC> The "Mandatory to implement" bit
above could address this issue.
				If an unrecognized message element is
found to have the bit set, then
				the whole message needs to be rejected.
If the bit is not set, the=20
				message element may be safely ignored.
			=09
			=09
				5) The config has a concept of "default
value" for each configuration
				attribute. However, the default values
are not clearly specified. This
				needs to be resolved to be able to
support "default values".=20
			=09
				<PRC> Another good point raised by
David.
			=09
			=09
				6) the documentation of which "binding
specific" message elements are to
				be included with CAPWAP messages is not
consistent, and is difficult to=20
				follow.
			=09
				<PRC> Has this been addressed in the
latest (-02) document?
			=09
			=09
				7) There are some message elements that
cause "actions". This approach
				to protocol design is problematic and
should be eliminated.=20
			=09
				<PRC> Could you be more specific as well
as provide guidance on what you
				would like to see?
			=09
			=09
				8) The message types are inconsistently
named, and do not follow the
				conventions of well designed protocols.
Can the operations be named=20
				consistently with the following
terminology:
				  1) request/response (used to
get/set/perform action)
				  2) report/ack (use to tell the other
side something)
			=09
				<PRC> Could you provide your thoughts on
which messages fall within=20
				which one of your categories?
			=09
			=09
				9) Many of the configuration items, and
status items are not listed in
				one section with definitions. (Well make
it two sections - one for
				CAPWAP and the other which is "binding"
specific.) For example, not all=20
				of the time period lengths are
identified and specified in section 4.5.
			=09
				<PRC> Unfortunately, the document has
gone back and forth a few times
				and before we opt to change the
structure of the document, I'd like to=20
				ensure that we have broad agreement on
what we want - with the
				understanding that we will never make
everyone happy.
			=09
			=09
				10) each operation should have listed in
which states it can be sent and
				received
			=09
				<PRC> I do not understand your comment.
			=09
			=09
				11) All strings, such as WTP location,
should be changed from US-ASCII
				encoding to UTF-8 encoding.
			=09
				<PRC> Agreed.
			=09
				12) The term "mobile" is not really
accurate when describing wireless=20
				interfaces, since wireless does not
imply      mobile. Can we just use
				the techie term "STA" instead.
			=09
				<PRC> I agree we should use the term
Station, or STA for short.
			=09
			=09
				13) The WTP Descriptor message element
contains too much information,=20
				lacks clarity on the WTP encryption
field and includes version numbers,
				which should be in string form.
			=09
				<PRC> To the first point, I disagree. I
think there is value in knowing
				everything about the WTP. The AC vendors
can expose whatever information=20
				they want, but I don't believe anything
is unnecessary.
			=09
				<PRC> To the second point, this is one
of those areas where the concept
				of the technology binding creates
complexity. Given that we cannot
				simply discuss 802.11i at this point,
the only thing we can do is punt
				to another section in the technology
binding section. That said, I agree
				with Dave that the 802.11 binding
section is too light in this area.
				However, I would much prefer that
instead of trying to address this=20
				specific issue, we discuss whether we
should even be supporting the mode
				of operation where 802.11i is performed
in the AC - especially with the
				introduction of DTLS to secure the data
plane. Right now, it just feels=20
				like we have too many options and I am
worried that interoperability
				will be severely impacted (not to
mention protocol complexity).
			=09
				<PRC> To the last point, I have no
issues with including text stating=20
				that the version numbers should be in
string form.
			=09
			=09
				14) The WTP Descriptor information is
not required at Join time.
			=09
				<PRC> Well, as far as I can tell, I
think there's value in knowing
				whether the WTP can even be supported by
the AC. So the more info is=20
				provided by the WTP, the better the AC
can determine whether it should
				just ignore the WTP or not. This could
be done because it knows that the
				firmware running on the WTP is not
compatible, and it has no new
				firmware to download.
			=09
			=09
				15) Are the values in the WTP Frame
Encryption a capabilities bit, or an
				enum?
			=09
				<PRC> Looks like an enum to me. Not sure
what Dave would prefer the text
				to read. There are various other similar
comments throughout, which I=20
				will not repeat here.
			=09
			=09
				16) The Discovery Response is broken.
The AC SHOULD NOT be providing any
				info to a WTP (or something that claims
to be a WTP). Also, the AC
				should tell the WTP what to do next,
with choices: 1) Ok to try to join,=20
				2) don't try to join, 3) try
discover on a list of
				returned ACs)
			=09
				<PRC> I don't believe there is an issue
with sending the AC's
				information to the WTP, but would
solicit input from the list. That=20
				said, some of the information in the AC
Descriptor is required, such as
				the current load on the AC. No point is
trying to join if he AC
				indicates it's already at max capacity.
				<PRC> I believe if the AC does not
return the response, then it implies=20
				(2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is
handled during the join or configure
				process, which I believe is right.
			=09
			=09
				17) Is AC Name text?
			=09
				<PRC> Yes, and same with WTP Name.
			=09
			=09
				18) Primary Discovery are not required.=20
			=09
				<PRC> Disagree. Required for failover.
			=09
			=09
				19) The text does not make it clear that
the contents of the WTP
				Location is informative only, and as
Dave calls it, a "scratchpad".
			=09
				<PRC> Well, to be honest, I thought the
example "next to the fridge"=20
				made it clear that the information did
not derive from any scientific
				formula. The description also states
this is a user-defined. I believe
				this should be good enough.
			=09
			=09
				20) Session is not required
			=09
				<PRC> I believe you may be correct that
with the transition to DTLS,
				this is no longer required.
			=09
			=09
				21) need to send "common name" as found
in the WTP CERT so that the AC
				can verify
			=09
				<PRC> The protocol currently relies on
the MAC address being the key
				that binds the certificate to the WTP. I
don't see a need to change
				this.
			=09
			=09
				22) Result code in Join Response is not
sufficient, for instance WTP HW=20
				not supported.
			=09
				<PRC> Well, the protocol does not
require this because the Discovery
				Response would never be sent (as the
protocol stands today).
			=09
			=09
				23) AC IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses
clustering, which is unnecessary.=20
			=09
				<PRC> Agreed.
			=09
			=09
				24) Change Echo to Keepalive or
heartbeat.
			=09
				<PRC> I call it potato....
			=09
			=09
				25) What if all of the message elements
do not fit within a single
				CAPWAP control frame.=20
			=09
				<PRC> We should address this.
			=09
			=09
				26) AC Name with Index is all messed
up...
			=09
				<PRC> Not really. You simply include
more than one, and the index field
				is clearly the priority. Don't
understand the Multi-AC comment. No=20
				inter-AC protocol implied here.
			=09
			=09
				27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join,
not configure.
			=09
				<PRC> Agreed, but wonder even more why
we are duplicating this
				information across both the WTP
Descriptor and the WTP Board Data=20
				message elements.
			=09
			=09
				28) The WTP Static IPv4 Address should
not have the Static bit, but
				instead state that 0.0.0.0
<http://0.0.0.0/> means a static address is not to be used.
			=09
				<PRC> I don't have an issue with this
request, but in the end we have=20
				the same function. The reason why I
state this is that we can refine
				this protocol until the cows come home,
and at one point we need to draw=20
				a line in the sand.
			=09
			=09
				29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the
Join, and the reasons listed=20
				are not clear enough.
			=09
				<PRC> Doesn't really matter whether this
is included in the
				configuration or the join, but if the WG
agrees to move it. We can=20
				clarify some of the reasons, as long as
it provides value.=20
			=09
			=09
				30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio
Configuration message element's BSSID
				field should be an array.
			=09
				<PRC> Disagree.
			=09
			=09
				30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio
Configuration message element's Country
				Code is not clear enough.
			=09
				<PRC> The text points to the actual MIB
element in the 802.11-1999
				standard, which very clearly defines the
contents of the field. I don't=20
				think there's value in replicating the
format of this field in the=20
				CAPWAP standard.
			=09
			=09
				31) There seems like an awful lot of
additional configuration message
				elements that need to be specified here!
			=09
				<PRC> Having built a protocol based on
this, it's not clear to me what's=20
				missing. I think it would be useful if
you provided concrete details on
				what's missing.
			=09
			=09
				32) Configuration Status is just plain
broken because any configuration=20
				change operation may fail and there is
no           response to the=20
				configuration changes specified in this
command.
			=09
				<PRC> There certainly is - I guess I
don't understand the concern.
			=09
			=09
				33) Use of Change State Event should
instead be Radio Admin State.=20
			=09
				<PRC> Perhaps the two are not described
properly. The first is used by=20
				the WTP to inform the AC that something
has occurred with a radio. The
				second is used by the AC to
enable/disable a radio.
			=09
			=09
				34) Report Timer needs to be in section
4.5 or 11
			=09
				<PRC> ok
			=09
			=09
				35) Should Idle Timeout be per radio, or
per WTP, and should the value
				be defined in section 4.5 or 11.
			=09
				<PRC> Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is
fine as it is.=20
			=09
			=09
				36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and
should be removed.=20
			=09
				<PRC> Disagree. I believe it is
necessary to create enough resiliency in
				the protocol/service.
			=09
			=09
				37) How are the "Rate Set" and
"Supported Rates" encoded.=20
			=09
				<PRC> This was fixed in the -02=20
			=09
			=09
				38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the
configuration, but instead in the
				join.
			=09
				<PRC> Not sure this really matters....
			=09
			=09
				39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so
strange and is being managed like no=20
				other configuration data.
			=09
				<PRC> I do not understand the comment
			=09
			=09
				40) Decryption Error Report Period is
not defined in section 4.5 or 11
			=09
				<PRC> ok, and note that the information
has been moved to the IEEE=20
				802.11 RSNA Error Report From Mobile
			=09
			=09
				41) Configuration Update Response.
today, there are primarily two types
				of configuration models. The first is
when config is changed, it is only
				changed in the volatile copy (the memory
or running). An explicit=20
				command is needed to save the config to
nonvolatile storage. The second
				model has config both running (volatile)
and saved (nonvolatile) config
				changed when a config change is made.
And there might be a special
				command to have a config change apply to
only one. In this case, there
				is no need for a "save config to
nonvolatile" command. It is not clear
				what is suppose to be supported here in
CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP=20
				support devices with no or very limited
nonvolatile storage for config!
			=09
				<PRC> CAPWAP does not support WTPs with
no nonvolatile storage. The
				protocol has the AC push configs to the
WTP, which saves them at the=20
				time they are received. I do not believe
anything else is required.
			=09
			=09
				42) Configuration Update Response
includes the Result Code message
				element, which includes values that do
not appear to be relevant for=20
				this message, and there are plenty of
other failure cases
			=09
				<PRC> ok, but note that we are sharing a
common message element. Any
				suggestions on how to address your
issue?
			=09
			=09
				43) Change State Event Report. This
seems a little silly to be sent in=20
				the "configure" state. It seems only
appropriate for the "run" state.
				Some might argue that even in the "run"
state it shouldn't be sent after
				a "config update" request that changes
the operational state. However,=20
				in the "run" state, it may take a while
to have the operational state
				change to follow the admin state. Thus,
I think it is OK in the "run"
				state after config changes."
			=09
				<PRC> I believe this was addressed in
-02.=20
			=09
			=09
				44) Clear Config Request. this operation
has several problems, which
				include:
				   1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec says
that this can only be done in
				the "run" state. This is silly. It
should also be possible in the=20
				"configure" state.
				<PRC> I wonder why the AC would even
consider clearing the WTP's state
				before it even knows how it is
configured.
			=09
				   2) the value of "manufacturing
defaults" is not defined, and a poor=20
				term to use, since it implies that that
each manufacturer can have
				different values. If so, then the AC
will have no knowledge of the
				config on the WTP! The problem of
"default config values" has already be=20
				mentioned above. After each config
attribute has been defined with a
				default value, then the proper term
would be "CAPWAP config defaults".
				<PRC> Yes, you've raised this point
already, and I agree that it does=20
				need to be addressed.
			=09
				   3) This operation is not defined to
have a response. This is broken,
				since any config change can fail. Also,
it is not defined what happens
				next. Does this cause the WTP to reboot
an start a "clean discovery"?=20
				<PRC> This was addressed in -02
			=09
			=09
				45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are
actually three different "Image
				Data Request" messages. Which one is
determined          by which of the
				three message elements is contained.
This is completely silly! There=20
				should be three separate operations!
Additionally, how does the WTP know
				which image to get? The AC should be
making that decision.
			=09
				<PRC> I believe the WTP is the only
device that knows what it's filename=20
				should be. Why would an AC vendor know
about file naming conventions
				used by the WTP vendors? I believe your
other issues are discussed in
				the next items.
			=09
			=09
				46) Image Data Response. this is silly.
This operation can fail! There=20
				needs to be message element that
indicates the          result.
			=09
				<PRC> How so? This is only used to send
firmware to the WTP. Not clear
				what could fail... Reading the image
from flash?
			=09
			=09
				47) Image Data Request. when starting
over again at the WTP start state,=20
				the WTP shouldn't use the "normal"
discovery process, but instead "fast
				track" a connection back to the AC that
just downloaded the image. With
				a little more          work, we could
probably figure out a way to reuse=20
				the old DTLS session.
			=09
				<PRC> To what gain? What is so expensive
about the discovery, and what
				happened if the AC was not longer
reachable?
			=09
			=09
				48) opcode - if this is here, might as
well also have a value that=20
				indicates last block of the image file,
instead of looking at the block
				size.
			=09
				<PRC> But we're just changing for the
sake of changing - the protocol
				works as-is.
			=09
			=09
				49) since this operation does not have
the block number as a parameter,=20
				the WTP must determine the block number
via the CAPWAP message header
				sequence number.  NOTE: DTLS does not
provide in-order delivery of
				packets. Also, this requires the WTP to
remember state. This message
				element should be re-engineered to have
the following subfields:=20
				[edited]
			=09
				<PRC> The control header includes a
sequence number, and while we can
				change the current protocol to match
your recommendations, the protocol
				does work. If it ain't broken...
			=09
			=09
				50) Image Data Response. this is silly.
This operation can fail!  For=20
				example, the WTP can run out of space to
store          the block, or
				there could be a failure in writing the
block to storage. (Or as "Image
				Data Request"(9.1a) is presently
specified, the checksum match could=20
				fail.) There needs to be message element
that indicates the result.)
				Note: don't need a block number field,
since request and responses are
				paired.
			=09
				<PRC> We can include a result code
			=09
			=09
				51) Image Data Request. silly beyond
belief=20
			=09
				<PRC> Beauty is in the eye of the
beholder ;-). Seriously, the protocol
				does work, so what exactly are you
looking for?
			=09
			=09
				52) Image Data Response. This is silly.
This operation can fail! There
				needs to be message element that
indicates the          result.
			=09
				<PRC> See above comment.
			=09
				53) Reset Request. ...
			=09
				<PRC> The comment is irrelevant now that
Clear Config has changed.
			=09
			=09
				54) Reset Response. this is silly. This
operation can fail! There needs
				to be message element that indicates the
result.
			=09
				<PRC> I sense a trend. I will stop
including these messages from now on.
			=09
			=09
				55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is
this reported if the condition
				remains?
			=09
				<PRC> Only required once, I think, but
we may want to include some text
				covering that.
			=09
			=09
				56) the list of events seems
understated!=20
			=09
				<PRC> Text and conditions please
			=09
			=09
				57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have
- remove.
			=09
				<PRC> Disagree. Providing diagnostics
capabilities is required.
			=09
			=09
				58) Mobile Config Request. the actual
details of how this works on both=20
				splitMAC and especially localMAC are not
well specified. That is, only
				the figures and text in sections 11.1.1
and 11.1.2 provide any clue as
				to events that would cause an AC to send
this message type. Also, there=20
				are restrictions on combinations of
parameters that can be included in
				the message.
			=09
				<PRC> I wonder whether other folks agree
that more details are required.
			=09
			=09
				59) it doesn't say if one message can be
used to update more than one=20
				STA. It should be able.
			=09
				<PRC> No, otherwise you end up with the
problem of associating specific
				message elements with a given mobile.
One mobile per request.
			=09
			=09
				60) IEEE 802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the
STA MAC address be included so=20
				this message element can be matched with
a (4.4.8)Add Mobile message
				element?
			=09
				<PRC> I believe this is to your previous
point, but the protocol assumes
				one mobile per request.
			=09
			=09
				61) IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s
this for data traffic to the AC? If
				so, then why is this an 802.11 message
element
			=09
				<PRC> Intended to be a way to push
policies to the WTP to prioritize
				mobile traffic.
			=09
			=09
				62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why
is a new message type that is
				802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11
WLANs? It seems like the
				existing "(8.4)Configuration Update
Request" message could be used.
			=09
				<PRC> To be more specific only.=20
			=09
			=09
				63) note here there are information
elements to create, delete, and
				modify WLANs. However, for message type
"(10.1)Mobile Config Request",
				there is only add and delete (and the
"add" used to modify).=20
			=09
				<PRC> Correct. The protocol requires the
AC to resend a new add with a
				different policy. No specific reason,
but if this is deemed
				inconsistent, we could change it.
			=09
			=09
				64) IEEE 802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The
mapping of WLAN IDs to BSSIDs=20
				seems like it needs a little more work
			=09
				<PRC> What exactly would you like to
see?
			=09
			=09
				Pat Calhoun
				CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
				Cisco Systems
			=09
			=09
			=09
				> -----Original Message-----=20
				> From: David T. Perkins
[mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com]
				> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 4:31 PM=20
				> To: capwap@frascone.com=20
				> Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on
CAPWAP-01 operations
				>
				> HI,=20
				>
				> I've attached a long file that
summarizes the operations in
				> CAPWAP-01.
				>
				> Enjoy,
				> /david t. perkins=20
				>
=09
_________________________________________________________________=20
				To unsubscribe or modify your
subscription options, please visit:
=09
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			=09
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http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
			=09



=09
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				To unsubscribe or modify your
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D985273723-28112006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Given=20
the session is secured at the point the join is sent, I am lukewarm with =
option=20
2.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D985273723-28112006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D985273723-28112006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>That=20
said, given the config state occurs right afterwards, I see little =
benefit, but=20
am willing to agree.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Dorothy Stanley=20
  [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 28, =
2006=20
  3:11 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)<BR><B>Cc:</B> Michael =
Montemurro;=20
  capwap@frascone.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Capwap] Proposed =
resolution to=20
  Issue 177 WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A =
commentary on=20
  CAPWAP-01 operations<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>Yes, that's the only reason I can see for including the=20
  info.<BR><BR>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 11/28/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Pat=20
  Calhoun (pacalhou)</B> &lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com">pcalhoun@cisco.com </A>&gt; =
wrote:</SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
    <DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Do you =
anticipate the AC=20
    may decide not to allow the join to proceed because of the reboot=20
    statistics? Note that accepting the join is now rather trivial =
compared to=20
    the actual DTLS session that had to be established=20
    beforehand.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><SPAN class=3Dq>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless =
Networking Business=20
    Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</FONT></P>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR></SPAN>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
      <HR>
      <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN class=3Dq><B>From:</B> Dorothy =
Stanley=20
      [mailto:<A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com"=20
      target=3D_blank>dstanley1389@gmail.com</A>] =
<BR></SPAN><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday,=20
      November 28, 2006 2:47 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Pat Calhoun=20
      (pacalhou)<BR><B>Cc:</B> Michael Montemurro; <A=20
      onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com"=20
      target=3D_blank>capwap@frascone.com</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[Capwap]=20
      Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in =
the=20
      Join/was Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01 =
operations<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3De id=3Dq_10f30c8485746169_5>
      <DIV></DIV>Pat,<BR><BR>In the current draft, the AC has no =
indication of=20
      the stability of the <BR>WTP before it accepts the Join Request. =
The value=20
      for adding<BR>WTP Reboot statistics to the Join Request is&nbsp; =
to=20
      provide the reboot statistics, <BR>if they are =
available.<BR><BR>There=20
      seemed to be three options to addressing this comment:<BR>1) =
Reject the=20
      comment, no change to the draft.<BR>2) Provide the option for the =
WTP to=20
      send the Reboot statistics to the AC in the Join Request<BR>3) =
Require the=20
      WTP to send the Reboot <A=20
      onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"http://statistics.to" target=3D_blank>statistics.to</A> =
the AC in the=20
      Join Request<BR><BR>I proposed option 2, allowing the WTP to =
provide them=20
      if available. This option<BR>seems to allow for your stated=20
      preference.<BR><BR>Dorothy<BR><BR>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 10/9/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Pat=20
      Calhoun (pacalhou)</B> &lt;<A=20
      onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
      href=3D"mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com" =
target=3D_blank>pcalhoun@cisco.com</A>&gt;=20
      wrote:</SPAN>=20
      <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
      style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; =
BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
        <DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I =
personally prefer to=20
        start maintaining configuration and status state on the WTP =
after the=20
        join is complete. Is there a problem that arises with the =
current draft?=20
        Is this just a personal preference, or is there a=20
        bug?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless =
Networking=20
        Business Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</FONT></P>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
        <BLOCKQUOTE=20
        style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
          <DIV lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
          <HR>
          <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Dorothy Stanley =
[mailto:<A=20
          onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
          href=3D"mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com"=20
          target=3D_blank>dstanley1389@gmail.com</A>] <BR><B>Sent: =
</B>Friday,=20
          September 29, 2006 2:22 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Michael=20
          Montemurro<BR><B>Cc:</B> <A=20
          onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
          href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com"=20
          target=3D_blank>capwap@frascone.com</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> =
[Capwap]=20
          Proposed resolution to <SPAN name=3D"st">Issue</SPAN> <SPAN=20
          name=3D"st">177</SPAN> WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the =
Join/was Re:=20
          A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
          <DIV></DIV>
          <DIV>All,</DIV>
          <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN name=3D"st">Issue</SPAN> <SPAN =
name=3D"st">177</SPAN>, "WTP=20
          Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join"</DIV>
          <DIV>is listed below:</DIV><PRE><EM>29) WTP Reboot Statistics =
belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed<BR>are not clear =
enough.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Doesn't really matter whether this is =
included in the<BR>configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to =
move it. We can
<BR><BR>clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides =
value.</EM></PRE>
          <DIV>Believing that there may be times when it is desirable =
for the=20
          WTP&nbsp;to provide </DIV>
          <DIV>information to the AC about its stability, the proposed=20
          resolution to <SPAN name=3D"st">Issue</SPAN> <SPAN =
name=3D"st">177</SPAN>=20
          is <BR>to insert the following text at the end of</DIV>
          <DIV>Section 6.1 "Join Request":</DIV>
          <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV>The following message element may be included in the Join =
Request=20
          message:</DIV>
          <DIV>- WTP Reboot Statistics, see Section 4.4.44.</DIV>
          <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV>Comments please,</DIV>
          <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV>Thanks,</DIV>
          <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV>Dorothy<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 6/30/06, <B=20
          class=3Dgmail_sendername>Michael Montemurro</B> &lt;<A=20
          onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
          href=3D"mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com"=20
          target=3D_blank>montemurro.michael@gmail.com</A>&gt; =
wrote:</SPAN>=20
          <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
          style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
            <DIV>David, Pat,</DIV>
            <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV>I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points <SPAN=20
            name=3D"st">in</SPAN> David's email. Happy hunting!</DIV>
            <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV>Mike<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV><SPAN>
            <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 6/27/06, <B=20
            class=3Dgmail_sendername>Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)</B> &lt;<A=20
            onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
            href=3D"mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com" =
target=3D_blank>pcalhoun@cisco.com=20
            </A>&gt; wrote:</SPAN>=20
            <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
            style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Going=20
              through David's lengthy document, he has raised an=20
              interesting<BR>number of points that I believe require =
issues to=20
              be created. At one <BR>point I'm paraphrasing Dave's =
comments in=20
              order to be brief, and<BR>introducing my own numbering=20
              scheme.<BR><BR>1) Can message elements be in any order? (I =
believe=20
              they should be)<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes, and I suspect we =
need to=20
              include text to make it more <BR>obvious.<BR><BR><BR>2) =
Are all=20
              specified message elements required? (The obvious answer=20
              is<BR>"yes", but this document doesn't discuss versioning. =
For=20
              example, what<BR>if in a new version of CAPWAP an =
additional=20
              message element was to be <BR>added. Would a new message =
type be=20
              created and the additional message<BR>element added to it, =
or the=20
              existing type reused?)<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; This is a great=20
              question, and one that does need to be addressed<BR>in the =
spec.=20
              In the Diameter protocol we dealt with this <SPAN=20
              name=3D"st">issue</SPAN> by <BR>including a "Mandatory to =
implement"=20
              bit. If any AVP was received, whose<BR>bit was set, yet =
was not=20
              recognized, then the request had to=20
              be<BR>rejected.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; We could consider =
something=20
              similar here, but I believe with the <BR>firmware download =

              component of the protocol it may be less of an <SPAN=20
              name=3D"st">issue</SPAN> -<BR>although not guaranteed. I =
would hope=20
              (and expect) that as the CAPWAP<BR>protocol extends, the =
AC would=20
              push new firmware to the WTP. This does <BR>require that =
the=20
              initial part of the state machine be fairly static, =
and<BR>this=20
              could be an area where the "Mandatory to implement" bit =
could=20
              be<BR>useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to =
older=20
              protocol behavior. <BR><BR>3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good =
job of=20
              indicating which message elements<BR>can be=20
              repeated.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Another good point. When we =
list the=20
              message elements, we should<BR>note whether the frequently =
is 0-1=20
              (meaning absent or once), 1 (only <BR>once) or 0+ (meaning =
any=20
              number of them could be present.<BR><BR><BR>4) Can =
"additional"=20
              message elements be added to a message? (I believe<BR>so =
for=20
              reporting capabilities, statistics, =
and&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
              events. For<BR>configuration, there is nothing in the =
protocol=20
              that says what happens<BR>when one end gets an=20
              configuration&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; element it doesn't =
know=20
              about.<BR>Should it be ignored, and the other elements =
processed,=20
              or should the<BR>complete =
operation&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
              failed?) <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; The "Mandatory to implement" =
bit=20
              above could address this <SPAN =
name=3D"st">issue</SPAN>.<BR>If an=20
              unrecognized message element is found to have the bit set, =

              then<BR>the whole message needs to be rejected. If the bit =
is not=20
              set, the <BR>message element may be safely =
ignored.<BR><BR><BR>5)=20
              The config has a concept of "default value" for each=20
              configuration<BR>attribute. However, the default values =
are not=20
              clearly specified. This<BR>needs to be resolved to be able =
to=20
              support "default values". <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Another good =
point=20
              raised by David.<BR><BR><BR>6) the documentation of which =
"binding=20
              specific" message elements are to<BR>be included with =
CAPWAP=20
              messages is not consistent, and is difficult to=20
              <BR>follow.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Has this been addressed in =
the=20
              latest (-02) document?<BR><BR><BR>7) There are some =
message=20
              elements that cause "actions". This approach<BR>to =
protocol design=20
              is problematic and should be eliminated. =
<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Could=20
              you be more specific as well as provide guidance on what=20
              you<BR>would like to see?<BR><BR><BR>8) The message types =
are=20
              inconsistently named, and do not follow the<BR>conventions =
of well=20
              designed protocols. Can the operations be named =
<BR>consistently=20
              with the following terminology:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;1) =
request/response=20
              (used to get/set/perform action)<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;2) =
report/ack (use=20
              to tell the other side something)<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Could =
you=20
              provide your thoughts on which messages fall within =
<BR>which one=20
              of your categories?<BR><BR><BR>9) Many of the =
configuration items,=20
              and status items are not listed in<BR>one section with=20
              definitions. (Well make it two sections - one =
for<BR>CAPWAP and=20
              the other which is "binding" specific.) For example, not =
all=20
              <BR>of the time period lengths are identified and =
specified in=20
              section 4.5.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Unfortunately, the =
document has=20
              gone back and forth a few times<BR>and before we opt to =
change the=20
              structure of the document, I'd like to <BR>ensure that we =
have=20
              broad agreement on what we want - with =
the<BR>understanding that=20
              we will never make everyone happy.<BR><BR><BR>10) each =
operation=20
              should have listed in which states it can be sent=20
              and<BR>received<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I do not understand =
your=20
              comment.<BR><BR><BR>11) All strings, such as WTP location, =
should=20
              be changed from US-ASCII<BR>encoding to UTF-8=20
              encoding.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Agreed.<BR><BR>12) The term =
"mobile"=20
              is not really accurate when describing wireless =
<BR>interfaces,=20
              since wireless does not=20
              imply&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;mobile. Can we =
just=20
              use<BR>the techie term "STA" instead.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I =
agree=20
              we should use the term Station, or STA for =
short.<BR><BR><BR>13)=20
              The WTP Descriptor message element contains too much =
information,=20
              <BR>lacks clarity on the WTP encryption field and includes =
version=20
              numbers,<BR>which should be in string =
form.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To=20
              the first point, I disagree. I think there is value in=20
              knowing<BR>everything about the WTP. The AC vendors can =
expose=20
              whatever information <BR>they want, but I don't believe =
anything=20
              is unnecessary.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To the second point, =
this is=20
              one of those areas where the concept<BR>of the technology =
binding=20
              creates complexity. Given that we cannot<BR>simply discuss =
802.11i=20
              at this point, the only thing we can do is punt<BR>to =
another=20
              section in the technology binding section. That said, I=20
              agree<BR>with Dave that the 802.11 binding section is too =
light in=20
              this area.<BR>However, I would much prefer that instead of =
trying=20
              to address this <BR>specific <SPAN =
name=3D"st">issue</SPAN>, we=20
              discuss whether we should even be supporting the =
mode<BR>of=20
              operation where 802.11i is performed in the AC - =
especially with=20
              the<BR>introduction of DTLS to secure the data plane. =
Right now,=20
              it just feels <BR>like we have too many options and I am =
worried=20
              that interoperability<BR>will be severely impacted (not to =
mention=20
              protocol complexity).<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To the last =
point, I have=20
              no issues with including text stating <BR>that the version =
numbers=20
              should be in string form.<BR><BR><BR>14) The WTP =
Descriptor=20
              information is not required at Join =
time.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Well,=20
              as far as I can tell, I think there's value in =
knowing<BR>whether=20
              the WTP can even be supported by the AC. So the more info =
is=20
              <BR>provided by the WTP, the better the AC can determine =
whether=20
              it should<BR>just ignore the WTP or not. This could be =
done=20
              because it knows that the<BR>firmware running on the WTP =
is not=20
              compatible, and it has no new<BR>firmware to=20
              download.<BR><BR><BR>15) Are the values in the WTP Frame=20
              Encryption a capabilities bit, or =
an<BR>enum?<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
              Looks like an enum to me. Not sure what Dave would prefer =
the=20
              text<BR>to read. There are various other similar comments=20
              throughout, which I <BR>will not repeat =
here.<BR><BR><BR>16) The=20
              Discovery Response is broken. The AC SHOULD NOT be =
providing=20
              any<BR>info to a WTP (or something that claims to be a =
WTP). Also,=20
              the AC<BR>should tell the WTP what to do next, with =
choices: 1) Ok=20
              to try to join, <BR>2) don't try to join, 3)=20
              =
try&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
              discover on a list of<BR>returned ACs)<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; =
I don't=20
              believe there is an <SPAN name=3D"st">issue</SPAN> with =
sending the=20
              AC's<BR>information to the WTP, but would solicit input =
from the=20
              list. That <BR>said, some of the information in the AC =
Descriptor=20
              is required, such as<BR>the current load on the AC. No =
point is=20
              trying to join if he AC<BR>indicates it's already at max=20
              capacity.<BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe if the AC does not =
return the=20
              response, then it implies <BR>(2). Otherwise, it is (1). =
(3) is=20
              handled during the join or configure<BR>process, which I =
believe=20
              is right.<BR><BR><BR>17) Is AC Name =
text?<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes,=20
              and same with WTP Name.<BR><BR><BR>18) Primary Discovery =
are not=20
              required. <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. Required for=20
              failover.<BR><BR><BR>19) The text does not make it clear =
that the=20
              contents of the WTP<BR>Location is informative only, and =
as Dave=20
              calls it, a "scratchpad".<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Well, to be =
honest, I=20
              thought the example "next to the fridge" <BR>made it clear =
that=20
              the information did not derive from any =
scientific<BR>formula. The=20
              description also states this is a user-defined. I =
believe<BR>this=20
              should be good enough.<BR><BR><BR>20) Session is not=20
              required<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe you may be correct =
that with=20
              the transition to DTLS,<BR>this is no longer=20
              required.<BR><BR><BR>21) need to send "common name" as =
found in=20
              the WTP CERT so that the AC<BR>can =
verify<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; The=20
              protocol currently relies on the MAC address being the =
key<BR>that=20
              binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't see a need to=20
              change<BR>this.<BR><BR><BR>22) Result code in Join =
Response is not=20
              sufficient, for instance WTP HW <BR>not=20
              supported.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Well, the protocol does not =
require=20
              this because the Discovery<BR>Response would never be sent =
(as the=20
              protocol stands today).<BR><BR><BR>23) AC IPv4/IPv6 Addr =
discusses=20
              clustering, which is unnecessary. <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
              Agreed.<BR><BR><BR>24) Change Echo to Keepalive or=20
              heartbeat.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I call it =
potato....<BR><BR><BR>25)=20
              What if all of the message elements do not fit within a=20
              single<BR>CAPWAP control frame. <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; We =
should=20
              address this.<BR><BR><BR>26) AC Name with Index is all =
messed=20
              up...<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Not really. You simply include =
more than=20
              one, and the index field<BR>is clearly the priority. Don't =

              understand the Multi-AC comment. No <BR>inter-AC protocol =
implied=20
              here.<BR><BR><BR>27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, =
not=20
              configure.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Agreed, but wonder even more =
why we=20
              are duplicating this<BR>information across both the WTP =
Descriptor=20
              and the WTP Board Data <BR>message =
elements.<BR><BR><BR>28) The=20
              WTP Static IPv4 Address should not have the Static bit,=20
              but<BR>instead state that <A=20
              onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
              href=3D"http://0.0.0.0/" target=3D_blank>0.0.0.0 </A>means =
a static=20
              address is not to be used.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I don't have =
an=20
              <SPAN name=3D"st">issue</SPAN> with this request, but in =
the end we=20
              have <BR>the same function. The reason why I state this is =
that we=20
              can refine<BR>this protocol until the cows come home, and =
at one=20
              point we need to draw <BR>a line in the =
sand.<BR><BR><BR>29) WTP=20
              Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons =
listed=20
              <BR>are not clear enough.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Doesn't =
really matter=20
              whether this is included in the<BR>configuration or the =
join, but=20
              if the WG agrees to move it. We can <BR>clarify some of =
the=20
              reasons, as long as it provides value. <BR><BR><BR>30) The =
IEEE=20
              802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's =
BSSID<BR>field=20
              should be an array.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; =
Disagree.<BR><BR><BR>30)=20
              The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's=20
              Country<BR>Code is not clear enough.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; =
The text=20
              points to the actual MIB element in the =
802.11-1999<BR>standard,=20
              which very clearly defines the contents of the field. I =
don't=20
              <BR>think there's value in replicating the format of this =
field in=20
              the <BR>CAPWAP standard.<BR><BR><BR>31) There seems like =
an awful=20
              lot of additional configuration message<BR>elements that =
need to=20
              be specified here!<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Having built a =
protocol=20
              based on this, it's not clear to me what's <BR>missing. I =
think it=20
              would be useful if you provided concrete details =
on<BR>what's=20
              missing.<BR><BR><BR>32) Configuration Status is just plain =
broken=20
              because any configuration <BR>change operation may fail =
and there=20
              is =
no&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
              response to the <BR>configuration changes specified in =
this=20
              command.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; There certainly is - I guess I =
don't=20
              understand the concern.<BR><BR><BR>33) Use of Change State =
Event=20
              should instead be Radio Admin State. <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; =
Perhaps=20
              the two are not described properly. The first is used by =
<BR>the=20
              WTP to inform the AC that something has occurred with a =
radio.=20
              The<BR>second is used by the AC to enable/disable a=20
              radio.<BR><BR><BR>34) Report Timer needs to be in section =
4.5 or=20
              11<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; ok<BR><BR><BR>35) Should Idle =
Timeout be per=20
              radio, or per WTP, and should the value<BR>be defined in =
section=20
              4.5 or 11.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Per WTP, and yes. I believe =
it is=20
              fine as it is. <BR><BR><BR>36) WTP Fallback isn't well =
defined,=20
              and should be removed. <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. I =
believe it=20
              is necessary to create enough resiliency in<BR>the=20
              protocol/service.<BR><BR><BR>37) How are the "Rate Set" =
and=20
              "Supported Rates" encoded. <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; This was =
fixed in=20
              the -02 <BR><BR><BR>38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the =

              configuration, but instead in =
the<BR>join.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Not=20
              sure this really matters....<BR><BR><BR>39) Add MAC ACL =
Entry -=20
              this is so strange and is being managed like no <BR>other=20
              configuration data.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I do not understand =
the=20
              comment<BR><BR><BR>40) Decryption Error Report Period is =
not=20
              defined in section 4.5 or 11<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; ok, and =
note that=20
              the information has been moved to the IEEE <BR>802.11 RSNA =
Error=20
              Report From Mobile<BR><BR><BR>41) Configuration Update =
Response.=20
              today, there are primarily two types<BR>of configuration =
models.=20
              The first is when config is changed, it is only<BR>changed =
in the=20
              volatile copy (the memory or running). An explicit =
<BR>command is=20
              needed to save the config to nonvolatile storage. The=20
              second<BR>model has config both running (volatile) and =
saved=20
              (nonvolatile) config<BR>changed when a config change is =
made. And=20
              there might be a special<BR>command to have a config =
change apply=20
              to only one. In this case, there<BR>is no need for a "save =
config=20
              to nonvolatile" command. It is not clear<BR>what is =
suppose to be=20
              supported here in CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP <BR>support =
devices=20
              with no or very limited nonvolatile storage for=20
              config!<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; CAPWAP does not support WTPs =
with no=20
              nonvolatile storage. The<BR>protocol has the AC push =
configs to=20
              the WTP, which saves them at the <BR>time they are =
received. I do=20
              not believe anything else is required.<BR><BR><BR>42)=20
              Configuration Update Response includes the Result Code=20
              message<BR>element, which includes values that do not =
appear to be=20
              relevant for <BR>this message, and there are plenty of =
other=20
              failure cases<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; ok, but note that we are =
sharing=20
              a common message element. Any<BR>suggestions on how to =
address=20
              your <SPAN name=3D"st">issue</SPAN>?<BR><BR><BR>43) Change =
State=20
              Event Report. This seems a little silly to be sent in =
<BR>the=20
              "configure" state. It seems only appropriate for the "run" =

              state.<BR>Some might argue that even in the "run" state it =

              shouldn't be sent after<BR>a "config update" request that =
changes=20
              the operational state. However, <BR>in the "run" state, it =
may=20
              take a while to have the operational state<BR>change to =
follow the=20
              admin state. Thus, I think it is OK in the "run"<BR>state =
after=20
              config changes."<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe this was =
addressed=20
              in -02. <BR><BR><BR>44) Clear Config Request. this =
operation has=20
              several problems, which<BR>include:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1) =
currently,=20
              the CAPWAP-01 spec says that this can only be done =
in<BR>the "run"=20
              state. This is silly. It should also be possible in the=20
              <BR>"configure" state.<BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I wonder why the AC =
would=20
              even consider clearing the WTP's state<BR>before it even =
knows how=20
              it is configured.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; 2) the value of=20
              "manufacturing defaults" is not defined, and a poor =
<BR>term to=20
              use, since it implies that that each manufacturer can=20
              have<BR>different values. If so, then the AC will have no=20
              knowledge of the<BR>config on the WTP! The problem of =
"default=20
              config values" has already be <BR>mentioned above. After =
each=20
              config attribute has been defined with a<BR>default value, =
then=20
              the proper term would be "CAPWAP config =
defaults".<BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
              Yes, you've raised this point already, and I agree that it =
does=20
              <BR>need to be addressed.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; 3) This =
operation is=20
              not defined to have a response. This is broken,<BR>since =
any=20
              config change can fail. Also, it is not defined what=20
              happens<BR>next. Does this cause the WTP to reboot an =
start a=20
              "clean discovery"? <BR>&lt;PRC&gt; This was addressed in=20
              -02<BR><BR><BR>45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are =
actually=20
              three different "Image<BR>Data Request" messages. Which =
one is=20
              =
determined&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;by =

              which of the<BR>three message elements is contained. This =
is=20
              completely silly! There <BR>should be three separate =
operations!=20
              Additionally, how does the WTP know<BR>which image to get? =
The AC=20
              should be making that decision.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I =
believe the=20
              WTP is the only device that knows what it's filename =
<BR>should=20
              be. Why would an AC vendor know about file naming=20
              conventions<BR>used by the WTP vendors? I believe your =
other=20
              issues are discussed in<BR>the next items.<BR><BR><BR>46) =
Image=20
              Data Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! =
There=20
              <BR>needs to be message element that indicates=20
              =
the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<BR=
><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
              How so? This is only used to send firmware to the WTP. Not =

              clear<BR>what could fail... Reading the image from=20
              flash?<BR><BR><BR>47) Image Data Request. when starting =
over again=20
              at the WTP start state, <BR>the WTP shouldn't use the =
"normal"=20
              discovery process, but instead "fast<BR>track" a =
connection back=20
              to the AC that just downloaded the image. With<BR>a little =

              =
more&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;work,=20
              we could probably figure out a way to reuse <BR>the old =
DTLS=20
              session.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; To what gain? What is so =
expensive=20
              about the discovery, and what<BR>happened if the AC was =
not longer=20
              reachable?<BR><BR><BR>48) opcode - if this is here, might =
as well=20
              also have a value that <BR>indicates last block of the =
image file,=20
              instead of looking at the =
block<BR>size.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; But=20
              we're just changing for the sake of changing - the=20
              protocol<BR>works as-is.<BR><BR><BR>49) since this =
operation does=20
              not have the block number as a parameter, <BR>the WTP must =

              determine the block number via the CAPWAP message=20
              header<BR>sequence number.&nbsp;&nbsp;NOTE: DTLS does not =
provide=20
              in-order delivery of<BR>packets. Also, this requires the =
WTP to=20
              remember state. This message<BR>element should be =
re-engineered to=20
              have the following subfields: =
<BR>[edited]<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; The=20
              control header includes a sequence number, and while we=20
              can<BR>change the current protocol to match your =
recommendations,=20
              the protocol<BR>does work. If it ain't =
broken...<BR><BR><BR>50)=20
              Image Data Response. this is silly. This operation can=20
              fail!&nbsp;&nbsp;For <BR>example, the WTP can run out of =
space to=20
              =
store&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the=20
              block, or<BR>there could be a failure in writing the block =
to=20
              storage. (Or as "Image<BR>Data Request"(9.1a) is presently =

              specified, the checksum match could <BR>fail.) There needs =
to be=20
              message element that indicates the result.)<BR>Note: don't =
need a=20
              block number field, since request and responses=20
              are<BR>paired.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; We can include a result=20
              code<BR><BR><BR>51) Image Data Request. silly beyond =
belief=20
              <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Beauty is in the eye of the beholder =
;-).=20
              Seriously, the protocol<BR>does work, so what exactly are =
you=20
              looking for?<BR><BR><BR>52) Image Data Response. This is =
silly.=20
              This operation can fail! There<BR>needs to be message =
element that=20
              indicates=20
              =
the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<BR=
><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
              See above comment.<BR><BR>53) Reset Request.=20
              ...<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; The comment is irrelevant now that =
Clear=20
              Config has changed.<BR><BR><BR>54) Reset Response. this is =
silly.=20
              This operation can fail! There needs<BR>to be message =
element that=20
              indicates=20
              =
the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<BR=
><BR>&lt;PRC&gt;=20
              I sense a trend. I will stop including these messages from =
now=20
              on.<BR><BR><BR>55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is =
this=20
              reported if the condition<BR>remains?<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; =
Only=20
              required once, I think, but we may want to include some=20
              text<BR>covering that.<BR><BR><BR>56) the list of events =
seems=20
              understated! <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Text and conditions=20
              please<BR><BR><BR>57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have =
-=20
              remove.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. Providing diagnostics =

              capabilities is required.<BR><BR><BR>58) Mobile Config =
Request.=20
              the actual details of how this works on both <BR>splitMAC =
and=20
              especially localMAC are not well specified. That is, =
only<BR>the=20
              figures and text in sections 11.1.1 and 11.1.2 provide any =
clue=20
              as<BR>to events that would cause an AC to send this =
message type.=20
              Also, there <BR>are restrictions on combinations of =
parameters=20
              that can be included in<BR>the message.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; =
I=20
              wonder whether other folks agree that more details are=20
              required.<BR><BR><BR>59) it doesn't say if one message can =
be used=20
              to update more than one <BR>STA. It should be=20
              able.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; No, otherwise you end up with the =
problem=20
              of associating specific<BR>message elements with a given =
mobile.=20
              One mobile per request.<BR><BR><BR>60) IEEE 802.11 Mobile. =

              shouldn't the STA MAC address be included so <BR>this =
message=20
              element can be matched with a (4.4.8)Add Mobile=20
              message<BR>element?<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe this is =
to your=20
              previous point, but the protocol assumes<BR>one mobile per =

              request.<BR><BR><BR>61) IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s =
this for=20
              data traffic to the AC? If<BR>so, then why is this an =
802.11=20
              message element<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Intended to be a way to =
push=20
              policies to the WTP to prioritize<BR>mobile=20
              traffic.<BR><BR><BR>62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. =
why is a=20
              new message type that is<BR>802.11 specific needed to =
modify=20
              802.11 WLANs? It seems like the<BR>existing =
"(8.4)Configuration=20
              Update Request" message could be used.<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; =
To be=20
              more specific only. <BR><BR><BR>63) note here there are=20
              information elements to create, delete, and<BR>modify =
WLANs.=20
              However, for message type "(10.1)Mobile Config =
Request",<BR>there=20
              is only add and delete (and the "add" used to modify).=20
              <BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; Correct. The protocol requires the AC =
to=20
              resend a new add with a<BR>different policy. No specific =
reason,=20
              but if this is deemed<BR>inconsistent, we could change=20
              it.<BR><BR><BR>64) IEEE 802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The =
mapping of=20
              WLAN IDs to BSSIDs <BR>seems like it needs a little more=20
              work<BR><BR>&lt;PRC&gt; What exactly would you like to=20
              see?<BR><BR><BR>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
              Unit<BR>Cisco Systems<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original=20
              Message----- <BR>&gt; From: David T. Perkins [mailto:<A=20
              onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
              href=3D"mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com"=20
              target=3D_blank>dperkins@dsperkins.com</A>]<BR>&gt; Sent: =
Thursday,=20
              June 22, 2006 4:31 PM <BR>&gt; To: <A=20
              onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
              href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com"=20
              target=3D_blank>capwap@frascone.com </A><BR>&gt; Subject: =
[Capwap] A=20
              commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; HI,=20
              <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I've attached a long file that summarizes =
the=20
              operations in<BR>&gt; CAPWAP-01.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; =
Enjoy,<BR>&gt;=20
              /david t. perkins=20
              =
<BR>&gt;<BR>_____________________________________________________________=
____=20
              <BR>To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, =
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															                                <strong>Account Locked !</=
strong></div></TD>
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																														  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: #000000;=
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																														                  Dear Chase Member, <BR>
																																                  <BR>
																																		                   Due to the number of=
 incorrect login attempts, your Chase Account has been locked for your se=
curity.=20
																																				                   This has been done=
 to secure your accounts and to protect your private information in case =
the login=20
																																						                   attempts were no=
t done by you..  <BR>
																																								                     At Chase Ban=
k we care about your security so, for your protection we are proactively =
notifying you of this activity. <BR>
																																										                  <BR>  =20
																																												               If you did not=
 trigger this lockout, follow this link to Log on to your Chase Online Ac=
count :=20
																																													                       <BR>
																																															       =20
																																															                       <TA=
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																																																																			      =
 target=3D_blank>Click here to unlock your account</A></TD>
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																														  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: #000000;=
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																														  verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><BR>
																														                  Dear Chase Member, <BR>
																																                  <BR>
																																		                   Due to the number of=
 incorrect login attempts, your Chase Account has been locked for your se=
curity.=20
																																				                   This has been done=
 to secure your accounts and to protect your private information in case =
the login=20
																																						                   attempts were no=
t done by you..  <BR>
																																								                     At Chase Ban=
k we care about your security so, for your protection we are proactively =
notifying you of this activity. <BR>
																																										                  <BR>  =20
																																												               If you did not=
 trigger this lockout, follow this link to Log on to your Chase Online Ac=
count :=20
																																													                       <BR>
																																															       =20
																																															                       <TA=
BLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D1 width=3D"75%" align=3Dleft
																																																	       border=3D0>
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<TR>
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																																																									   style=3D"FONT=
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																																																									   verdana,arial=
,helvetica,sans-serif"><TABLE cellSpacing=3D0
																																																									   cellPadding=3D=
4 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter=20
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																																																												             =
                    <TR>
																																																																         =
                      <TD class=3Dpp_sansserif align=3Dmiddle><A
																																																																			      =
 href=3D"http://motorex06.com/colappmgr/colportal/prospect.php?_nfpb=3Dch=
ange_form"
																																																																			      =
 target=3D_blank>Click here to unlock your account</A></TD>
																																																																			      =
                             </TR>
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Thread-Topic: Proposed resolution to Isse 43/ wasRe: [Capwap] Security
	Considerations
Thread-Index: AccTORQ+EmPBM0xtTL6UK0PuWQl/lQAFQ4gw
From: "Saravanan Govindan" <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>
To: "Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>
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Hi Dorothy,

=20

Thank you for the text.

=20

This update is related to paragraph 7 of the proposed text.

=20

Current proposed text: =20

"The only way to completely close this window is to provide the exact
KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any other approach
simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given the low relative
threat level this presents, the additional complexity introduced by
providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That is, this
specification provides for a calculated risk in this regard."

=20

For consideration:

"The only way to completely close this window is to provide the exact
KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any other approach
simply narrows the window to varying degrees. This is achieved by the AC
sending message 3 of the 4-way exchange without setting the KeyRSC
field. The WTP then updates message 3 of the 4-way handshake with the
exact KeyRSC value. The exact KeyRSC value MAY be used to completely
overcome this vulnerability."

=20

My concern here is about the WG defining design complexity. I think the
specification should let implementers decide what is complex.=20

=20

Cheers,


Saravanan=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

________________________________

From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 6:05 AM
To: Saravanan Govindan
Cc: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Proposed resolution to Isse 43/ wasRe: [Capwap] Security
Considerations

=20

All,

In San Diego, we reviewed the 4 different options for dealing with the
KeyRSC value issue:

1. Extend the IEEE 802.11 Binding to deliver the KCK to the WTP
2. Extend the IEEE 802.11 Binding to deliver the GTK KeyRSC from the WTP
to the AC
3. Document the issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document security
considerations section,
do not extend the protocol, and provide no implementation advice
4.Document the issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document security
considerations section,
do not extend the protocol, and add text to indicate that the "AC shoule
set the KeyRSC value to zero=20
or other value".

=20

There seemed to be agreement on proceeding with option #4. Below is
proposed text, taken
from previous postings (Scott, Margaret) to implement option 4.

Comments welcome,

Thanks,

Dorothy
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------

Proposed Resolution:

In draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00, change section 9.1
from

9.1 IEEE 802.11 Security

When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, the
   CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.  Derived
   session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting in
   many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD discourage the use
   of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic solutions
   such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.

   STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and consequently
   EAP.  Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the requirements
   specified [6].

to

9.1.  IEEE 802.11 Security

   When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, the
  CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.  Derived
  session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting in
  many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD discourage the use
  of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic solutions
  such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.

   STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and consequently
   EAP.  Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the requirements
   specified [6].

  When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol
  may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the link
security
 (packet encryption and integrity verification) is provided by the WTP
or the AC.
  When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new security
  concerns are introduced.

  However, when the WTP provides link security, a new vulnerability will
  exist when the following conditions are true:

       o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID
       (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already exists

       o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK

  Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter (KeyRSC)
  associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors the
  4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC is not
  known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.
  The client will update its Key RSC value to the current valid KeyRSC
  upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior to
this,
  previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was secured with the
existing
  GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic as valid.

  Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or broadcast
  frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to such
  replay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is
expected that
  replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP.

  The only way to completely close this window is to provide the
  exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any
  other approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given
  the low relative threat level this presents, the additional complexity
  introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That
  is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this regard.

  The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the 4-way
  802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal RSC
  value to use.  Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC value
  are outside the scope of this specification.

On 11/28/06, Saravanan Govindan <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>
wrote:=20

Hello All,

=20

Going back to Cheng Hong's earlier post, I think the Security
Considerations section should include Scott Kelly's analysis on running
802.11i in the CAPWAP architecture.=20

=20

As to the recommendation involved, I continue to prefer the approach of
assigning the KeyRSC at the WTP. In the interest of moving forward, I
will support the WG's consensus decision on this.=20

=20

Cheers,

=20

Saravanan

=20


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=20


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Hi Dorothy,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Thank you for the text.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>This update is related to paragraph 7 of the proposed =
text.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Current proposed text:&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&#8220;The only way to completely close this window is to =
provide the
exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any other =
approach
simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given the low relative =
threat
level this presents, the additional complexity introduced by providing =
the
exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That is, this specification =
provides for a
calculated risk in this regard.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>For consideration:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&#8220;The only way to completely close this window is to =
provide the
exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any other =
approach
simply narrows the window to varying degrees. This is achieved by the AC
sending message 3 of the 4-way exchange without setting the KeyRSC =
field. The
WTP then updates message 3 of the 4-way handshake with the exact KeyRSC =
value.
The exact KeyRSC value MAY be used to completely overcome this
vulnerability.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>My concern here is about the WG defining design complexity. I =
think the
specification should let implementers decide what is complex. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
Saravanan <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Dorothy Stanley
[mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, November =
29, 2006
6:05 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">Saravanan
 Govindan</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">capwap@frascone.com</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Proposed =
resolution to
Isse 43/ wasRe: [Capwap] Security =
Considerations</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>All,<br>
<br>
In <st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">San =
Diego</st1:place></st1:City>, we
reviewed the 4 different options for dealing with the KeyRSC value =
issue:<br>
<br>
1. Extend the IEEE 802.11 Binding to deliver the KCK to the WTP<br>
2. Extend the IEEE 802.11 Binding to deliver the GTK KeyRSC from the WTP =
to the
AC<br>
3. Document the issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document security
considerations section,<br>
do not extend the protocol, and provide no implementation advice<br>
4.Document the issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document security
considerations section,<br>
do not extend the protocol, and add text to indicate that the &quot;AC =
shoule
set the KeyRSC value to zero <br>
or other value&quot;.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>There seemed =
to be
agreement on proceeding with option #4. Below is proposed text, =
taken<br>
from previous postings (Scott, Margaret) to implement option 4.<br>
<br>
Comments welcome,<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Dorothy<br>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Proposed Resolution:<br>
<br>
In draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00, change section 9.1 =
from<br>
<br>
9.1 IEEE 802.11 Security<br>
<br>
When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, =
the<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.&nbsp;
Derived<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, =
resulting
in<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; many well-documented attacks.&nbsp; Implementors SHOULD =
discourage
the use<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic
solutions<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and
consequently<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; EAP.&nbsp; Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the
requirements<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; specified [6].<br>
<br>
to<br>
<br>
9.1. &nbsp;IEEE 802.11 Security<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP =
encryption,
the<br>
&nbsp; CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities. =
&nbsp;Derived<br>
&nbsp; session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, =
resulting in<br>
&nbsp; many well-documented attacks. &nbsp;Implementors SHOULD =
discourage the
use<br>
&nbsp; of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic =
solutions<br>
&nbsp; such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and
consequently<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; EAP.&nbsp; Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the
requirements<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; specified [6].<br>
<br>
&nbsp; When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol<br>
&nbsp; may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the link
security<br>
&nbsp;(packet encryption and integrity verification) is provided by the =
WTP or
the AC.<br>
&nbsp; When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new =
security<br>
&nbsp; concerns are introduced.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; However, when the WTP provides link security, a new vulnerability =
will<br>
&nbsp; exist when the following conditions are true:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;o the client is not the first to associate to =
the
WTP/ESSID<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(i.e. other clients are associated), and a =
GTK
already exists<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;o traffic has been broadcast under the =
existing GTK<br>
<br>
&nbsp; Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter =
(KeyRSC)<br>
&nbsp; associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors =
the<br>
&nbsp; 4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC is =
not<br>
&nbsp; known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.<br>
&nbsp; The client will update its Key RSC value to the current valid =
KeyRSC<br>
&nbsp; upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior to =
this,<br>
&nbsp; previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was secured with the =
existing<br>
&nbsp; GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic as =
valid.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or =
broadcast<br>
&nbsp; frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to =
such<br>
&nbsp; replay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is =
expected
that<br>
&nbsp; replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; The only way to completely close this window is to provide =
the<br>
&nbsp; exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any<br>
&nbsp; other approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. =
Given<br>
&nbsp; the low relative threat level this presents, the additional =
complexity<br>
&nbsp; introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. =
That<br>
&nbsp; is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this =
regard.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the =
4-way<br>
&nbsp; 802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal =
RSC<br>
&nbsp; value to use. &nbsp;Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC =
value<br>
&nbsp; are outside the scope of this =
specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dgmailquote><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On 11/28/06, <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on"><b><span
 style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Saravanan =
Govindan</span></b></st1:PersonName> &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com">Saravanan.Govindan@sg=
.panasonic.com</a>&gt;
wrote: </span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>

<div link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>

<div>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Hello
All,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o=
:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Going
back to Cheng Hong's earlier post, I think the Security Considerations =
section
should include Scott Kelly's analysis on running 802.11i in the CAPWAP
architecture. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o=
:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>As
to the recommendation involved, I continue to prefer the approach of =
assigning
the KeyRSC at the WTP. In the interest of moving forward, I will support =
the
WG's consensus decision on this. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o=
:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Cheers,</span></font><o:p></=
o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o=
:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Saravanan</span></font><o:p>=
</o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 13:21:54 +0530
From: "sujay gupta" <sujay.ietf@gmail.com>
To: dstanley1389@gmail.com, pcalhoun@cisco.com
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Cc: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP Reboot
	Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on
	CAPWAP-01 operations
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Hi Dorothy,
Assuming an AC may not allow a WTP to join based on WTP Reboot
Stats.(possibly based on some user policy on the AC) thus  this parameter
should be included  in  Join Request is not too convincing.
Tomorrow a user policy may prohibit a WTP based say ex: on WTP Radio Stats
information, shall we go again and add to the Join Request another
parameter?
The implementation could send a Reset Request to the WTP after the
Configuration message exchange if it doesn't like the WTP Reboot Stats !
Best Regards,
Sujay




On 11/29/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>  Given the session is secured at the point the join is sent, I am lukewarm
> with option 2.
>
> That said, given the config state occurs right afterwards, I see little
> benefit, but am willing to agree.
>
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 28, 2006 3:11 PM
> *To:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> *Cc:* Michael Montemurro; capwap@frascone.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP Reboot
> Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations
>
> Yes, that's the only reason I can see for including the info.
>
> On 11/28/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com > wrote:
> >
> >  Do you anticipate the AC may decide not to allow the join to proceed
> > because of the reboot statistics? Note that accepting the join is now rather
> > trivial compared to the actual DTLS session that had to be established
> > beforehand.
> >
> >
> > Pat Calhoun
> > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> > Cisco Systems
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------
> > *From:* Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 28, 2006 2:47 PM
> > *To:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> > *Cc:* Michael Montemurro; capwap@frascone.com
> > *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP Reboot
> > Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations
> >
> >  Pat,
> >
> > In the current draft, the AC has no indication of the stability of the
> > WTP before it accepts the Join Request. The value for adding
> > WTP Reboot statistics to the Join Request is  to provide the reboot
> > statistics,
> > if they are available.
> >
> > There seemed to be three options to addressing this comment:
> > 1) Reject the comment, no change to the draft.
> > 2) Provide the option for the WTP to send the Reboot statistics to the
> > AC in the Join Request
> > 3) Require the WTP to send the Reboot statistics.to the AC in the Join
> > Request
> >
> > I proposed option 2, allowing the WTP to provide them if available. This
> > option
> > seems to allow for your stated preference.
> >
> > Dorothy
> >
> > On 10/9/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >  I personally prefer to start maintaining configuration and status
> > > state on the WTP after the join is complete. Is there a problem that arises
> > > with the current draft? Is this just a personal preference, or is there a
> > > bug?
> > >
> > >
> > > Pat Calhoun
> > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> > > Cisco Systems
> > >
> > >
> > >  ------------------------------
> > > *From:* Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
> > > *Sent: *Friday, September 29, 2006 2:22 PM
> > > *To:* Michael Montemurro
> > > *Cc:* capwap@frascone.com
> > > *Subject:* [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP Reboot
> > > Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations
> > >
> > >  All,
> > >
> > > Issue 177, "WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join"
> > > is listed below:
> > >
> > > *29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed
> > > are not clear enough.
> > >
> > > <PRC> Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the
> > > configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can
> > >
> > >
> > > clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value.*
> > >
> > > Believing that there may be times when it is desirable for the WTP to
> > > provide
> > > information to the AC about its stability, the proposed resolution to
> > > Issue 177 is
> > > to insert the following text at the end of
> > > Section 6.1 "Join Request":
> > >
> > > The following message element may be included in the Join Request
> > > message:
> > > - WTP Reboot Statistics, see Section 4.4.44.
> > >
> > > Comments please,
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Dorothy
> > >
> > >
> > > On 6/30/06, Michael Montemurro <montemurro.michael@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > David, Pat,
> > > >
> > > > I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points in David's email.
> > > > Happy hunting!
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  On 6/27/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Going through David's lengthy document, he has raised an
> > > > > interesting
> > > > > number of points that I believe require issues to be created. At
> > > > > one
> > > > > point I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in order to be brief, and
> > > > > introducing my own numbering scheme.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) Can message elements be in any order? (I believe they should
> > > > > be)
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Yes, and I suspect we need to include text to make it more
> > > > > obvious.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) Are all specified message elements required? (The obvious
> > > > > answer is
> > > > > "yes", but this document doesn't discuss versioning. For example,
> > > > > what
> > > > > if in a new version of CAPWAP an additional message element was to
> > > > > be
> > > > > added. Would a new message type be created and the additional
> > > > > message
> > > > > element added to it, or the existing type reused?)
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> This is a great question, and one that does need to be
> > > > > addressed
> > > > > in the spec. In the Diameter protocol we dealt with this issue by
> > > > > including a "Mandatory to implement" bit. If any AVP was received,
> > > > > whose
> > > > > bit was set, yet was not recognized, then the request had to be
> > > > > rejected.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> We could consider something similar here, but I believe with
> > > > > the
> > > > > firmware download component of the protocol it may be less of an
> > > > > issue -
> > > > > although not guaranteed. I would hope (and expect) that as the
> > > > > CAPWAP
> > > > > protocol extends, the AC would push new firmware to the WTP. This
> > > > > does
> > > > > require that the initial part of the state machine be fairly
> > > > > static, and
> > > > > this could be an area where the "Mandatory to implement" bit could
> > > > > be
> > > > > useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to older protocol
> > > > > behavior.
> > > > >
> > > > > 3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of indicating which message
> > > > > elements
> > > > > can be repeated.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Another good point. When we list the message elements, we
> > > > > should
> > > > > note whether the frequently is 0-1 (meaning absent or once), 1
> > > > > (only
> > > > > once) or 0+ (meaning any number of them could be present.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 4) Can "additional" message elements be added to a message? (I
> > > > > believe
> > > > > so for reporting capabilities, statistics, and     events. For
> > > > > configuration, there is nothing in the protocol that says what
> > > > > happens
> > > > > when one end gets an configuration     element it doesn't know
> > > > > about.
> > > > > Should it be ignored, and the other elements processed, or should
> > > > > the
> > > > > complete operation     failed?)
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> The "Mandatory to implement" bit above could address this
> > > > > issue.
> > > > > If an unrecognized message element is found to have the bit set,
> > > > > then
> > > > > the whole message needs to be rejected. If the bit is not set, the
> > > > >
> > > > > message element may be safely ignored.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 5) The config has a concept of "default value" for each
> > > > > configuration
> > > > > attribute. However, the default values are not clearly specified.
> > > > > This
> > > > > needs to be resolved to be able to support "default values".
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Another good point raised by David.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 6) the documentation of which "binding specific" message elements
> > > > > are to
> > > > > be included with CAPWAP messages is not consistent, and is
> > > > > difficult to
> > > > > follow.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Has this been addressed in the latest (-02) document?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 7) There are some message elements that cause "actions". This
> > > > > approach
> > > > > to protocol design is problematic and should be eliminated.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Could you be more specific as well as provide guidance on
> > > > > what you
> > > > > would like to see?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 8) The message types are inconsistently named, and do not follow
> > > > > the
> > > > > conventions of well designed protocols. Can the operations be
> > > > > named
> > > > > consistently with the following terminology:
> > > > >   1) request/response (used to get/set/perform action)
> > > > >   2) report/ack (use to tell the other side something)
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Could you provide your thoughts on which messages fall
> > > > > within
> > > > > which one of your categories?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 9) Many of the configuration items, and status items are not
> > > > > listed in
> > > > > one section with definitions. (Well make it two sections - one for
> > > > > CAPWAP and the other which is "binding" specific.) For example,
> > > > > not all
> > > > > of the time period lengths are identified and specified in section
> > > > > 4.5.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Unfortunately, the document has gone back and forth a few
> > > > > times
> > > > > and before we opt to change the structure of the document, I'd
> > > > > like to
> > > > > ensure that we have broad agreement on what we want - with the
> > > > > understanding that we will never make everyone happy.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 10) each operation should have listed in which states it can be
> > > > > sent and
> > > > > received
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> I do not understand your comment.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 11) All strings, such as WTP location, should be changed from
> > > > > US-ASCII
> > > > > encoding to UTF-8 encoding.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Agreed.
> > > > >
> > > > > 12) The term "mobile" is not really accurate when describing
> > > > > wireless
> > > > > interfaces, since wireless does not imply      mobile. Can we just
> > > > > use
> > > > > the techie term "STA" instead.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> I agree we should use the term Station, or STA for short.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 13) The WTP Descriptor message element contains too much
> > > > > information,
> > > > > lacks clarity on the WTP encryption field and includes version
> > > > > numbers,
> > > > > which should be in string form.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> To the first point, I disagree. I think there is value in
> > > > > knowing
> > > > > everything about the WTP. The AC vendors can expose whatever
> > > > > information
> > > > > they want, but I don't believe anything is unnecessary.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> To the second point, this is one of those areas where the
> > > > > concept
> > > > > of the technology binding creates complexity. Given that we cannot
> > > > > simply discuss 802.11i at this point, the only thing we can do is
> > > > > punt
> > > > > to another section in the technology binding section. That said, I
> > > > > agree
> > > > > with Dave that the 802.11 binding section is too light in this
> > > > > area.
> > > > > However, I would much prefer that instead of trying to address
> > > > > this
> > > > > specific issue, we discuss whether we should even be supporting
> > > > > the mode
> > > > > of operation where 802.11i is performed in the AC - especially
> > > > > with the
> > > > > introduction of DTLS to secure the data plane. Right now, it just
> > > > > feels
> > > > > like we have too many options and I am worried that
> > > > > interoperability
> > > > > will be severely impacted (not to mention protocol complexity).
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> To the last point, I have no issues with including text
> > > > > stating
> > > > > that the version numbers should be in string form.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 14) The WTP Descriptor information is not required at Join time.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Well, as far as I can tell, I think there's value in knowing
> > > > > whether the WTP can even be supported by the AC. So the more info
> > > > > is
> > > > > provided by the WTP, the better the AC can determine whether it
> > > > > should
> > > > > just ignore the WTP or not. This could be done because it knows
> > > > > that the
> > > > > firmware running on the WTP is not compatible, and it has no new
> > > > > firmware to download.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 15) Are the values in the WTP Frame Encryption a capabilities bit,
> > > > > or an
> > > > > enum?
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Looks like an enum to me. Not sure what Dave would prefer
> > > > > the text
> > > > > to read. There are various other similar comments throughout,
> > > > > which I
> > > > > will not repeat here.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 16) The Discovery Response is broken. The AC SHOULD NOT be
> > > > > providing any
> > > > > info to a WTP (or something that claims to be a WTP). Also, the AC
> > > > > should tell the WTP what to do next, with choices: 1) Ok to try to
> > > > > join,
> > > > > 2) don't try to join, 3) try                     discover on a
> > > > > list of
> > > > > returned ACs)
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> I don't believe there is an issue with sending the AC's
> > > > > information to the WTP, but would solicit input from the list.
> > > > > That
> > > > > said, some of the information in the AC Descriptor is required,
> > > > > such as
> > > > > the current load on the AC. No point is trying to join if he AC
> > > > > indicates it's already at max capacity.
> > > > > <PRC> I believe if the AC does not return the response, then it
> > > > > implies
> > > > > (2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is handled during the join or
> > > > > configure
> > > > > process, which I believe is right.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 17) Is AC Name text?
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Yes, and same with WTP Name.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 18) Primary Discovery are not required.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Disagree. Required for failover.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 19) The text does not make it clear that the contents of the WTP
> > > > > Location is informative only, and as Dave calls it, a
> > > > > "scratchpad".
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Well, to be honest, I thought the example "next to the
> > > > > fridge"
> > > > > made it clear that the information did not derive from any
> > > > > scientific
> > > > > formula. The description also states this is a user-defined. I
> > > > > believe
> > > > > this should be good enough.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 20) Session is not required
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> I believe you may be correct that with the transition to
> > > > > DTLS,
> > > > > this is no longer required.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 21) need to send "common name" as found in the WTP CERT so that
> > > > > the AC
> > > > > can verify
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> The protocol currently relies on the MAC address being the
> > > > > key
> > > > > that binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't see a need to
> > > > > change
> > > > > this.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 22) Result code in Join Response is not sufficient, for instance
> > > > > WTP HW
> > > > > not supported.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Well, the protocol does not require this because the
> > > > > Discovery
> > > > > Response would never be sent (as the protocol stands today).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 23) AC IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering, which is unnecessary.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Agreed.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 24) Change Echo to Keepalive or heartbeat.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> I call it potato....
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 25) What if all of the message elements do not fit within a single
> > > > > CAPWAP control frame.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> We should address this.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 26) AC Name with Index is all messed up...
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Not really. You simply include more than one, and the index
> > > > > field
> > > > > is clearly the priority. Don't understand the Multi-AC comment. No
> > > > >
> > > > > inter-AC protocol implied here.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not configure.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Agreed, but wonder even more why we are duplicating this
> > > > > information across both the WTP Descriptor and the WTP Board Data
> > > > > message elements.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 28) The WTP Static IPv4 Address should not have the Static bit,
> > > > > but
> > > > > instead state that 0.0.0.0 means a static address is not to be
> > > > > used.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> I don't have an issue with this request, but in the end we
> > > > > have
> > > > > the same function. The reason why I state this is that we can
> > > > > refine
> > > > > this protocol until the cows come home, and at one point we need
> > > > > to draw
> > > > > a line in the sand.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons
> > > > > listed
> > > > > are not clear enough.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the
> > > > > configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can
> > > > >
> > > > > clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's
> > > > > BSSID
> > > > > field should be an array.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Disagree.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's
> > > > > Country
> > > > > Code is not clear enough.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> The text points to the actual MIB element in the 802.11-1999
> > > > > standard, which very clearly defines the contents of the field. I
> > > > > don't
> > > > > think there's value in replicating the format of this field in the
> > > > >
> > > > > CAPWAP standard.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 31) There seems like an awful lot of additional configuration
> > > > > message
> > > > > elements that need to be specified here!
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Having built a protocol based on this, it's not clear to me
> > > > > what's
> > > > > missing. I think it would be useful if you provided concrete
> > > > > details on
> > > > > what's missing.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 32) Configuration Status is just plain broken because any
> > > > > configuration
> > > > > change operation may fail and there is no           response to
> > > > > the
> > > > > configuration changes specified in this command.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> There certainly is - I guess I don't understand the concern.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 33) Use of Change State Event should instead be Radio Admin State.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Perhaps the two are not described properly. The first is
> > > > > used by
> > > > > the WTP to inform the AC that something has occurred with a radio.
> > > > > The
> > > > > second is used by the AC to enable/disable a radio.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 34) Report Timer needs to be in section 4.5 or 11
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> ok
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 35) Should Idle Timeout be per radio, or per WTP, and should the
> > > > > value
> > > > > be defined in section 4.5 or 11.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine as it is.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and should be removed.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Disagree. I believe it is necessary to create enough
> > > > > resiliency in
> > > > > the protocol/service.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 37) How are the "Rate Set" and "Supported Rates" encoded.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> This was fixed in the -02
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the configuration, but instead
> > > > > in the
> > > > > join.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Not sure this really matters....
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so strange and is being managed
> > > > > like no
> > > > > other configuration data.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> I do not understand the comment
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 40) Decryption Error Report Period is not defined in section 4.5or 11
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> ok, and note that the information has been moved to the IEEE
> > > > >
> > > > > 802.11 RSNA Error Report From Mobile
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 41) Configuration Update Response. today, there are primarily two
> > > > > types
> > > > > of configuration models. The first is when config is changed, it
> > > > > is only
> > > > > changed in the volatile copy (the memory or running). An explicit
> > > > > command is needed to save the config to nonvolatile storage. The
> > > > > second
> > > > > model has config both running (volatile) and saved (nonvolatile)
> > > > > config
> > > > > changed when a config change is made. And there might be a special
> > > > > command to have a config change apply to only one. In this case,
> > > > > there
> > > > > is no need for a "save config to nonvolatile" command. It is not
> > > > > clear
> > > > > what is suppose to be supported here in CAPWAP, and how does
> > > > > CAPWAP
> > > > > support devices with no or very limited nonvolatile storage for
> > > > > config!
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> CAPWAP does not support WTPs with no nonvolatile storage.
> > > > > The
> > > > > protocol has the AC push configs to the WTP, which saves them at
> > > > > the
> > > > > time they are received. I do not believe anything else is
> > > > > required.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 42) Configuration Update Response includes the Result Code message
> > > > > element, which includes values that do not appear to be relevant
> > > > > for
> > > > > this message, and there are plenty of other failure cases
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> ok, but note that we are sharing a common message element.
> > > > > Any
> > > > > suggestions on how to address your issue?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 43) Change State Event Report. This seems a little silly to be
> > > > > sent in
> > > > > the "configure" state. It seems only appropriate for the "run"
> > > > > state.
> > > > > Some might argue that even in the "run" state it shouldn't be sent
> > > > > after
> > > > > a "config update" request that changes the operational state.
> > > > > However,
> > > > > in the "run" state, it may take a while to have the operational
> > > > > state
> > > > > change to follow the admin state. Thus, I think it is OK in the
> > > > > "run"
> > > > > state after config changes."
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> I believe this was addressed in -02.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 44) Clear Config Request. this operation has several problems,
> > > > > which
> > > > > include:
> > > > >    1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec says that this can only be
> > > > > done in
> > > > > the "run" state. This is silly. It should also be possible in the
> > > > > "configure" state.
> > > > > <PRC> I wonder why the AC would even consider clearing the WTP's
> > > > > state
> > > > > before it even knows how it is configured.
> > > > >
> > > > >    2) the value of "manufacturing defaults" is not defined, and a
> > > > > poor
> > > > > term to use, since it implies that that each manufacturer can have
> > > > > different values. If so, then the AC will have no knowledge of the
> > > > > config on the WTP! The problem of "default config values" has
> > > > > already be
> > > > > mentioned above. After each config attribute has been defined with
> > > > > a
> > > > > default value, then the proper term would be "CAPWAP config
> > > > > defaults".
> > > > > <PRC> Yes, you've raised this point already, and I agree that it
> > > > > does
> > > > > need to be addressed.
> > > > >
> > > > >    3) This operation is not defined to have a response. This is
> > > > > broken,
> > > > > since any config change can fail. Also, it is not defined what
> > > > > happens
> > > > > next. Does this cause the WTP to reboot an start a "clean
> > > > > discovery"?
> > > > > <PRC> This was addressed in -02
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are actually three different
> > > > > "Image
> > > > > Data Request" messages. Which one is determined          by which
> > > > > of the
> > > > > three message elements is contained. This is completely silly!
> > > > > There
> > > > > should be three separate operations! Additionally, how does the
> > > > > WTP know
> > > > > which image to get? The AC should be making that decision.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> I believe the WTP is the only device that knows what it's
> > > > > filename
> > > > > should be. Why would an AC vendor know about file naming
> > > > > conventions
> > > > > used by the WTP vendors? I believe your other issues are discussed
> > > > > in
> > > > > the next items.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 46) Image Data Response. this is silly. This operation can fail!
> > > > > There
> > > > > needs to be message element that indicates the          result.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> How so? This is only used to send firmware to the WTP. Not
> > > > > clear
> > > > > what could fail... Reading the image from flash?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 47) Image Data Request. when starting over again at the WTP start
> > > > > state,
> > > > > the WTP shouldn't use the "normal" discovery process, but instead
> > > > > "fast
> > > > > track" a connection back to the AC that just downloaded the image.
> > > > > With
> > > > > a little more          work, we could probably figure out a way to
> > > > > reuse
> > > > > the old DTLS session.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> To what gain? What is so expensive about the discovery, and
> > > > > what
> > > > > happened if the AC was not longer reachable?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 48) opcode - if this is here, might as well also have a value that
> > > > >
> > > > > indicates last block of the image file, instead of looking at the
> > > > > block
> > > > > size.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> But we're just changing for the sake of changing - the
> > > > > protocol
> > > > > works as-is.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 49) since this operation does not have the block number as a
> > > > > parameter,
> > > > > the WTP must determine the block number via the CAPWAP message
> > > > > header
> > > > > sequence number.  NOTE: DTLS does not provide in-order delivery of
> > > > > packets. Also, this requires the WTP to remember state. This
> > > > > message
> > > > > element should be re-engineered to have the following subfields:
> > > > > [edited]
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> The control header includes a sequence number, and while we
> > > > > can
> > > > > change the current protocol to match your recommendations, the
> > > > > protocol
> > > > > does work. If it ain't broken...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 50) Image Data Response. this is silly. This operation can
> > > > > fail!  For
> > > > > example, the WTP can run out of space to store          the block,
> > > > > or
> > > > > there could be a failure in writing the block to storage. (Or as
> > > > > "Image
> > > > > Data Request"(9.1a) is presently specified, the checksum match
> > > > > could
> > > > > fail.) There needs to be message element that indicates the
> > > > > result.)
> > > > > Note: don't need a block number field, since request and responses
> > > > > are
> > > > > paired.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> We can include a result code
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-). Seriously, the
> > > > > protocol
> > > > > does work, so what exactly are you looking for?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This operation can fail!
> > > > > There
> > > > > needs to be message element that indicates the          result.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> See above comment.
> > > > >
> > > > > 53) Reset Request. ...
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> The comment is irrelevant now that Clear Config has changed.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 54) Reset Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There
> > > > > needs
> > > > > to be message element that indicates the          result.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> I sense a trend. I will stop including these messages from
> > > > > now on.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this reported if the
> > > > > condition
> > > > > remains?
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Only required once, I think, but we may want to include some
> > > > > text
> > > > > covering that.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 56) the list of events seems understated!
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Text and conditions please
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have - remove.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Disagree. Providing diagnostics capabilities is required.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 58) Mobile Config Request. the actual details of how this works on
> > > > > both
> > > > > splitMAC and especially localMAC are not well specified. That is,
> > > > > only
> > > > > the figures and text in sections 11.1.1 and 11.1.2 provide any
> > > > > clue as
> > > > > to events that would cause an AC to send this message type. Also,
> > > > > there
> > > > > are restrictions on combinations of parameters that can be
> > > > > included in
> > > > > the message.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> I wonder whether other folks agree that more details are
> > > > > required.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 59) it doesn't say if one message can be used to update more than
> > > > > one
> > > > > STA. It should be able.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> No, otherwise you end up with the problem of associating
> > > > > specific
> > > > > message elements with a given mobile. One mobile per request.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 60) IEEE 802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC address be included
> > > > > so
> > > > > this message element can be matched with a (4.4.8)Add Mobile
> > > > > message
> > > > > element?
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> I believe this is to your previous point, but the protocol
> > > > > assumes
> > > > > one mobile per request.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 61) IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for data traffic to the
> > > > > AC? If
> > > > > so, then why is this an 802.11 message element
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Intended to be a way to push policies to the WTP to
> > > > > prioritize
> > > > > mobile traffic.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why is a new message type
> > > > > that is
> > > > > 802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11 WLANs? It seems like the
> > > > > existing "(8.4)Configuration Update Request" message could be
> > > > > used.
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> To be more specific only.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 63) note here there are information elements to create, delete,
> > > > > and
> > > > > modify WLANs. However, for message type "(10.1)Mobile Config
> > > > > Request",
> > > > > there is only add and delete (and the "add" used to modify).
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> Correct. The protocol requires the AC to resend a new add
> > > > > with a
> > > > > different policy. No specific reason, but if this is deemed
> > > > > inconsistent, we could change it.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 64) IEEE 802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping of WLAN IDs to
> > > > > BSSIDs
> > > > > seems like it needs a little more work
> > > > >
> > > > > <PRC> What exactly would you like to see?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Pat Calhoun
> > > > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> > > > > Cisco Systems
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: David T. Perkins [mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com]
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 4:31 PM
> > > > > > To: capwap@frascone.com
> > > > > > Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations
> > > > > >
> > > > > > HI,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've attached a long file that summarizes the operations in
> > > > > > CAPWAP-01.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Enjoy,
> > > > > > /david t. perkins
> > > > > >
> > > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> > > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> > > > >
> > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> > > >
> > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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Hi Dorothy,<br>Assuming an AC may not allow a WTP to join based on WTP Reboot Stats.(possibly based on some user policy on the AC) thus&nbsp; this parameter should be included&nbsp; in&nbsp;  Join Request is not too convincing.<br>Tomorrow a user policy may prohibit a WTP based say ex: on WTP Radio Stats information, shall we go again and add to the Join Request another parameter?
<br>The implementation could send a Reset Request to the WTP after the Configuration message exchange if it doesn't like the WTP Reboot Stats !<br>Best Regards,<br>Sujay<br><br><br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 11/29/06, 
<b class="gmail_sendername">Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com">pcalhoun@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">




<div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Given 
the session is secured at the point the join is sent, I am lukewarm with option 
2.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">That 
said, given the config state occurs right afterwards, I see little benefit, but 
am willing to agree.</font></span></div><span class="q">
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<p align="left"><font size="2">Pat Calhoun<br>CTO, Wireless Networking Business 
Unit<br>Cisco Systems</font></p>
<div>&nbsp;</div><br>
</span><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
  <div dir="ltr" align="left" lang="en-us">
  <hr>
  <font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span class="q"><b>From:</b> Dorothy Stanley 
  [mailto:<a href="mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dstanley1389@gmail.com</a>] <br></span><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 28, 2006 
  3:11 PM</font><div><span class="e" id="q_10f30f6120621a27_5"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><br><b>To:</b> Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)<br><b>Cc:</b> Michael Montemurro; 
  <a href="mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to 
  Issue 177 WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on 
  CAPWAP-01 operations<br></font></span></div><br></div><div><span class="e" id="q_10f30f6120621a27_7">
  <div></div>Yes, that's the only reason I can see for including the 
  info.<br><br>
  <div><span class="gmail_quote">On 11/28/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Pat 
  Calhoun (pacalhou)</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">pcalhoun@cisco.com </a>&gt; wrote:</span>
  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
    <div>
    <div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Do you anticipate the AC 
    may decide not to allow the join to proceed because of the reboot 
    statistics? Note that accepting the join is now rather trivial compared to 
    the actual DTLS session that had to be established 
    beforehand.</font></span></div><span>
    <div>&nbsp;</div>
    <p align="left"><font size="2">Pat Calhoun<br>CTO, Wireless Networking Business 
    Unit<br>Cisco Systems</font></p>
    <div>&nbsp;</div><br></span>
    <blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
      <div dir="ltr" align="left" lang="en-us">
      <hr>
      <font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span><b>From:</b> Dorothy Stanley 
      [mailto:<a href="mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dstanley1389@gmail.com</a>] <br></span><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 
      November 28, 2006 2:47 PM<br><b>To:</b> Pat Calhoun 
      (pacalhou)<br><b>Cc:</b> Michael Montemurro; <a href="mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Capwap] 
      Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the 
      Join/was Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations<br></font><br></div>
      <div><span>
      <div></div>Pat,<br><br>In the current draft, the AC has no indication of 
      the stability of the <br>WTP before it accepts the Join Request. The value 
      for adding<br>WTP Reboot statistics to the Join Request is&nbsp; to 
      provide the reboot statistics, <br>if they are available.<br><br>There 
      seemed to be three options to addressing this comment:<br>1) Reject the 
      comment, no change to the draft.<br>2) Provide the option for the WTP to 
      send the Reboot statistics to the AC in the Join Request<br>3) Require the 
      WTP to send the Reboot <a href="http://statistics.to" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">statistics.to</a> the AC in the 
      Join Request<br><br>I proposed option 2, allowing the WTP to provide them 
      if available. This option<br>seems to allow for your stated 
      preference.<br><br>Dorothy<br><br>
      <div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/9/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Pat 
      Calhoun (pacalhou)</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">pcalhoun@cisco.com</a>&gt; 
      wrote:</span> 
      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
        <div>
        <div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">I personally prefer to 
        start maintaining configuration and status state on the WTP after the 
        join is complete. Is there a problem that arises with the current draft? 
        Is this just a personal preference, or is there a 
        bug?</font></span></div>
        <div>&nbsp;</div>
        <p align="left"><font size="2">Pat Calhoun<br>CTO, Wireless Networking 
        Business Unit<br>Cisco Systems</font></p>
        <div>&nbsp;</div><br>
        <blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
          <div dir="ltr" align="left" lang="en-us">
          <hr>
          <font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> Dorothy Stanley [mailto:<a href="mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dstanley1389@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>
Sent: </b>Friday, 
          September 29, 2006 2:22 PM<br><b>To:</b> Michael 
          Montemurro<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Capwap] 
          Proposed resolution to <span name="st">Issue</span> <span name="st">177</span> WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: 
          A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations<br></font><br></div>
          <div></div>
          <div>All,</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div><span name="st">Issue</span> <span name="st">177</span>, &quot;WTP 
          Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join&quot;</div>
          <div>is listed below:</div><pre><em>29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed<br>are not clear enough.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the<br>configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can
<br><br><br>clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value.</em></pre>
          <div>Believing that there may be times when it is desirable for the 
          WTP&nbsp;to provide </div>
          <div>information to the AC about its stability, the proposed 
          resolution to <span name="st">Issue</span> <span name="st">177</span> 
          is <br>to insert the following text at the end of</div>
          <div>Section 6.1 &quot;Join Request&quot;:</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>The following message element may be included in the Join Request 
          message:</div>
          <div>- WTP Reboot Statistics, see Section 4.4.44.</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Comments please,</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Thanks,</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Dorothy<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
          <div><span class="gmail_quote">On 6/30/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Michael Montemurro</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
montemurro.michael@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span> 
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
            <div>David, Pat,</div>
            <div>&nbsp;</div>
            <div>I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points <span name="st">in</span> David's email. Happy hunting!</div>
            <div>&nbsp;</div>
            <div>Mike<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
            <div><span>
            <div><span class="gmail_quote">On 6/27/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
pcalhoun@cisco.com 
            </a>&gt; wrote:</span> 
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Going 
              through David's lengthy document, he has raised an 
              interesting<br>number of points that I believe require issues to 
              be created. At one <br>point I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in 
              order to be brief, and<br>introducing my own numbering 
              scheme.<br><br>1) Can message elements be in any order? (I believe 
              they should be)<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes, and I suspect we need to 
              include text to make it more <br>obvious.<br><br><br>2) Are all 
              specified message elements required? (The obvious answer 
              is<br>&quot;yes&quot;, but this document doesn't discuss versioning. For 
              example, what<br>if in a new version of CAPWAP an additional 
              message element was to be <br>added. Would a new message type be 
              created and the additional message<br>element added to it, or the 
              existing type reused?)<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; This is a great 
              question, and one that does need to be addressed<br>in the spec. 
              In the Diameter protocol we dealt with this <span name="st">issue</span> by <br>including a &quot;Mandatory to implement&quot; 
              bit. If any AVP was received, whose<br>bit was set, yet was not 
              recognized, then the request had to 
              be<br>rejected.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; We could consider something 
              similar here, but I believe with the <br>firmware download 
              component of the protocol it may be less of an <span name="st">issue</span> -<br>although not guaranteed. I would hope 
              (and expect) that as the CAPWAP<br>protocol extends, the AC would 
              push new firmware to the WTP. This does <br>require that the 
              initial part of the state machine be fairly static, and<br>this 
              could be an area where the &quot;Mandatory to implement&quot; bit could 
              be<br>useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to older 
              protocol behavior. <br><br>3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of 
              indicating which message elements<br>can be 
              repeated.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Another good point. When we list the 
              message elements, we should<br>note whether the frequently is 0-1 
              (meaning absent or once), 1 (only <br>once) or 0+ (meaning any 
              number of them could be present.<br><br><br>4) Can &quot;additional&quot; 
              message elements be added to a message? (I believe<br>so for 
              reporting capabilities, statistics, and&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
              events. For<br>configuration, there is nothing in the protocol 
              that says what happens<br>when one end gets an 
              configuration&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; element it doesn't know 
              about.<br>Should it be ignored, and the other elements processed, 
              or should the<br>complete operation&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
              failed?) <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; The &quot;Mandatory to implement&quot; bit 
              above could address this <span name="st">issue</span>.<br>If an 
              unrecognized message element is found to have the bit set, 
              then<br>the whole message needs to be rejected. If the bit is not 
              set, the <br>message element may be safely ignored.<br><br><br>5) 
              The config has a concept of &quot;default value&quot; for each 
              configuration<br>attribute. However, the default values are not 
              clearly specified. This<br>needs to be resolved to be able to 
              support &quot;default values&quot;. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Another good point 
              raised by David.<br><br><br>6) the documentation of which &quot;binding 
              specific&quot; message elements are to<br>be included with CAPWAP 
              messages is not consistent, and is difficult to 
              <br>follow.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Has this been addressed in the 
              latest (-02) document?<br><br><br>7) There are some message 
              elements that cause &quot;actions&quot;. This approach<br>to protocol design 
              is problematic and should be eliminated. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Could 
              you be more specific as well as provide guidance on what 
              you<br>would like to see?<br><br><br>8) The message types are 
              inconsistently named, and do not follow the<br>conventions of well 
              designed protocols. Can the operations be named <br>consistently 
              with the following terminology:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;1) request/response 
              (used to get/set/perform action)<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;2) report/ack (use 
              to tell the other side something)<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Could you 
              provide your thoughts on which messages fall within <br>which one 
              of your categories?<br><br><br>9) Many of the configuration items, 
              and status items are not listed in<br>one section with 
              definitions. (Well make it two sections - one for<br>CAPWAP and 
              the other which is &quot;binding&quot; specific.) For example, not all 
              <br>of the time period lengths are identified and specified in 
              section 4.5.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Unfortunately, the document has 
              gone back and forth a few times<br>and before we opt to change the 
              structure of the document, I'd like to <br>ensure that we have 
              broad agreement on what we want - with the<br>understanding that 
              we will never make everyone happy.<br><br><br>10) each operation 
              should have listed in which states it can be sent 
              and<br>received<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I do not understand your 
              comment.<br><br><br>11) All strings, such as WTP location, should 
              be changed from US-ASCII<br>encoding to UTF-8 
              encoding.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Agreed.<br><br>12) The term &quot;mobile&quot; 
              is not really accurate when describing wireless <br>interfaces, 
              since wireless does not 
              imply&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;mobile. Can we just 
              use<br>the techie term &quot;STA&quot; instead.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I agree 
              we should use the term Station, or STA for short.<br><br><br>13) 
              The WTP Descriptor message element contains too much information, 
              <br>lacks clarity on the WTP encryption field and includes version 
              numbers,<br>which should be in string form.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; To 
              the first point, I disagree. I think there is value in 
              knowing<br>everything about the WTP. The AC vendors can expose 
              whatever information <br>they want, but I don't believe anything 
              is unnecessary.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; To the second point, this is 
              one of those areas where the concept<br>of the technology binding 
              creates complexity. Given that we cannot<br>simply discuss 802.11i 
              at this point, the only thing we can do is punt<br>to another 
              section in the technology binding section. That said, I 
              agree<br>with Dave that the 802.11 binding section is too light in 
              this area.<br>However, I would much prefer that instead of trying 
              to address this <br>specific <span name="st">issue</span>, we 
              discuss whether we should even be supporting the mode<br>of 
              operation where 802.11i is performed in the AC - especially with 
              the<br>introduction of DTLS to secure the data plane. Right now, 
              it just feels <br>like we have too many options and I am worried 
              that interoperability<br>will be severely impacted (not to mention 
              protocol complexity).<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; To the last point, I have 
              no issues with including text stating <br>that the version numbers 
              should be in string form.<br><br><br>14) The WTP Descriptor 
              information is not required at Join time.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Well, 
              as far as I can tell, I think there's value in knowing<br>whether 
              the WTP can even be supported by the AC. So the more info is 
              <br>provided by the WTP, the better the AC can determine whether 
              it should<br>just ignore the WTP or not. This could be done 
              because it knows that the<br>firmware running on the WTP is not 
              compatible, and it has no new<br>firmware to 
              download.<br><br><br>15) Are the values in the WTP Frame 
              Encryption a capabilities bit, or an<br>enum?<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
              Looks like an enum to me. Not sure what Dave would prefer the 
              text<br>to read. There are various other similar comments 
              throughout, which I <br>will not repeat here.<br><br><br>16) The 
              Discovery Response is broken. The AC SHOULD NOT be providing 
              any<br>info to a WTP (or something that claims to be a WTP). Also, 
              the AC<br>should tell the WTP what to do next, with choices: 1) Ok 
              to try to join, <br>2) don't try to join, 3) 
              try&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
              discover on a list of<br>returned ACs)<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I don't 
              believe there is an <span name="st">issue</span> with sending the 
              AC's<br>information to the WTP, but would solicit input from the 
              list. That <br>said, some of the information in the AC Descriptor 
              is required, such as<br>the current load on the AC. No point is 
              trying to join if he AC<br>indicates it's already at max 
              capacity.<br>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe if the AC does not return the 
              response, then it implies <br>(2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is 
              handled during the join or configure<br>process, which I believe 
              is right.<br><br><br>17) Is AC Name text?<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Yes, 
              and same with WTP Name.<br><br><br>18) Primary Discovery are not 
              required. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. Required for 
              failover.<br><br><br>19) The text does not make it clear that the 
              contents of the WTP<br>Location is informative only, and as Dave 
              calls it, a &quot;scratchpad&quot;.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Well, to be honest, I 
              thought the example &quot;next to the fridge&quot; <br>made it clear that 
              the information did not derive from any scientific<br>formula. The 
              description also states this is a user-defined. I believe<br>this 
              should be good enough.<br><br><br>20) Session is not 
              required<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe you may be correct that with 
              the transition to DTLS,<br>this is no longer 
              required.<br><br><br>21) need to send &quot;common name&quot; as found in 
              the WTP CERT so that the AC<br>can verify<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; The 
              protocol currently relies on the MAC address being the key<br>that 
              binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't see a need to 
              change<br>this.<br><br><br>22) Result code in Join Response is not 
              sufficient, for instance WTP HW <br>not 
              supported.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Well, the protocol does not require 
              this because the Discovery<br>Response would never be sent (as the 
              protocol stands today).<br><br><br>23) AC IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses 
              clustering, which is unnecessary. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
              Agreed.<br><br><br>24) Change Echo to Keepalive or 
              heartbeat.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I call it potato....<br><br><br>25) 
              What if all of the message elements do not fit within a 
              single<br>CAPWAP control frame. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; We should 
              address this.<br><br><br>26) AC Name with Index is all messed 
              up...<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Not really. You simply include more than 
              one, and the index field<br>is clearly the priority. Don't 
              understand the Multi-AC comment. No <br>inter-AC protocol implied 
              here.<br><br><br>27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not 
              configure.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Agreed, but wonder even more why we 
              are duplicating this<br>information across both the WTP Descriptor 
              and the WTP Board Data <br>message elements.<br><br><br>28) The 
              WTP Static IPv4 Address should not have the Static bit, 
              but<br>instead state that <a href="http://0.0.0.0/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">0.0.0.0 </a>means a static 
              address is not to be used.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I don't have an 
              <span name="st">issue</span> with this request, but in the end we 
              have <br>the same function. The reason why I state this is that we 
              can refine<br>this protocol until the cows come home, and at one 
              point we need to draw <br>a line in the sand.<br><br><br>29) WTP 
              Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed 
              <br>are not clear enough.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Doesn't really matter 
              whether this is included in the<br>configuration or the join, but 
              if the WG agrees to move it. We can <br>clarify some of the 
              reasons, as long as it provides value. <br><br><br>30) The IEEE 
              802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's BSSID<br>field 
              should be an array.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree.<br><br><br>30) 
              The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's 
              Country<br>Code is not clear enough.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; The text 
              points to the actual MIB element in the 802.11-1999<br>standard, 
              which very clearly defines the contents of the field. I don't 
              <br>think there's value in replicating the format of this field in 
              the <br>CAPWAP standard.<br><br><br>31) There seems like an awful 
              lot of additional configuration message<br>elements that need to 
              be specified here!<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Having built a protocol 
              based on this, it's not clear to me what's <br>missing. I think it 
              would be useful if you provided concrete details on<br>what's 
              missing.<br><br><br>32) Configuration Status is just plain broken 
              because any configuration <br>change operation may fail and there 
              is no&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
              response to the <br>configuration changes specified in this 
              command.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; There certainly is - I guess I don't 
              understand the concern.<br><br><br>33) Use of Change State Event 
              should instead be Radio Admin State. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Perhaps 
              the two are not described properly. The first is used by <br>the 
              WTP to inform the AC that something has occurred with a radio. 
              The<br>second is used by the AC to enable/disable a 
              radio.<br><br><br>34) Report Timer needs to be in section 4.5 or 
              11<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; ok<br><br><br>35) Should Idle Timeout be per 
              radio, or per WTP, and should the value<br>be defined in section 
              4.5 or 11.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is 
              fine as it is. <br><br><br>36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, 
              and should be removed. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. I believe it 
              is necessary to create enough resiliency in<br>the 
              protocol/service.<br><br><br>37) How are the &quot;Rate Set&quot; and 
              &quot;Supported Rates&quot; encoded. <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; This was fixed in 
              the -02 <br><br><br>38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the 
              configuration, but instead in the<br>join.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Not 
              sure this really matters....<br><br><br>39) Add MAC ACL Entry - 
              this is so strange and is being managed like no <br>other 
              configuration data.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I do not understand the 
              comment<br><br><br>40) Decryption Error Report Period is not 
              defined in section 4.5 or 11<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; ok, and note that 
              the information has been moved to the IEEE <br>802.11 RSNA Error 
              Report From Mobile<br><br><br>41) Configuration Update Response. 
              today, there are primarily two types<br>of configuration models. 
              The first is when config is changed, it is only<br>changed in the 
              volatile copy (the memory or running). An explicit <br>command is 
              needed to save the config to nonvolatile storage. The 
              second<br>model has config both running (volatile) and saved 
              (nonvolatile) config<br>changed when a config change is made. And 
              there might be a special<br>command to have a config change apply 
              to only one. In this case, there<br>is no need for a &quot;save config 
              to nonvolatile&quot; command. It is not clear<br>what is suppose to be 
              supported here in CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP <br>support devices 
              with no or very limited nonvolatile storage for 
              config!<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; CAPWAP does not support WTPs with no 
              nonvolatile storage. The<br>protocol has the AC push configs to 
              the WTP, which saves them at the <br>time they are received. I do 
              not believe anything else is required.<br><br><br>42) 
              Configuration Update Response includes the Result Code 
              message<br>element, which includes values that do not appear to be 
              relevant for <br>this message, and there are plenty of other 
              failure cases<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; ok, but note that we are sharing 
              a common message element. Any<br>suggestions on how to address 
              your <span name="st">issue</span>?<br><br><br>43) Change State 
              Event Report. This seems a little silly to be sent in <br>the 
              &quot;configure&quot; state. It seems only appropriate for the &quot;run&quot; 
              state.<br>Some might argue that even in the &quot;run&quot; state it 
              shouldn't be sent after<br>a &quot;config update&quot; request that changes 
              the operational state. However, <br>in the &quot;run&quot; state, it may 
              take a while to have the operational state<br>change to follow the 
              admin state. Thus, I think it is OK in the &quot;run&quot;<br>state after 
              config changes.&quot;<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe this was addressed 
              in -02. <br><br><br>44) Clear Config Request. this operation has 
              several problems, which<br>include:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1) currently, 
              the CAPWAP-01 spec says that this can only be done in<br>the &quot;run&quot; 
              state. This is silly. It should also be possible in the 
              <br>&quot;configure&quot; state.<br>&lt;PRC&gt; I wonder why the AC would 
              even consider clearing the WTP's state<br>before it even knows how 
              it is configured.<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; 2) the value of 
              &quot;manufacturing defaults&quot; is not defined, and a poor <br>term to 
              use, since it implies that that each manufacturer can 
              have<br>different values. If so, then the AC will have no 
              knowledge of the<br>config on the WTP! The problem of &quot;default 
              config values&quot; has already be <br>mentioned above. After each 
              config attribute has been defined with a<br>default value, then 
              the proper term would be &quot;CAPWAP config defaults&quot;.<br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
              Yes, you've raised this point already, and I agree that it does 
              <br>need to be addressed.<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; 3) This operation is 
              not defined to have a response. This is broken,<br>since any 
              config change can fail. Also, it is not defined what 
              happens<br>next. Does this cause the WTP to reboot an start a 
              &quot;clean discovery&quot;? <br>&lt;PRC&gt; This was addressed in 
              -02<br><br><br>45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are actually 
              three different &quot;Image<br>Data Request&quot; messages. Which one is 
              determined&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;by 
              which of the<br>three message elements is contained. This is 
              completely silly! There <br>should be three separate operations! 
              Additionally, how does the WTP know<br>which image to get? The AC 
              should be making that decision.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe the 
              WTP is the only device that knows what it's filename <br>should 
              be. Why would an AC vendor know about file naming 
              conventions<br>used by the WTP vendors? I believe your other 
              issues are discussed in<br>the next items.<br><br><br>46) Image 
              Data Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There 
              <br>needs to be message element that indicates 
              the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
              How so? This is only used to send firmware to the WTP. Not 
              clear<br>what could fail... Reading the image from 
              flash?<br><br><br>47) Image Data Request. when starting over again 
              at the WTP start state, <br>the WTP shouldn't use the &quot;normal&quot; 
              discovery process, but instead &quot;fast<br>track&quot; a connection back 
              to the AC that just downloaded the image. With<br>a little 
              more&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;work, 
              we could probably figure out a way to reuse <br>the old DTLS 
              session.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; To what gain? What is so expensive 
              about the discovery, and what<br>happened if the AC was not longer 
              reachable?<br><br><br>48) opcode - if this is here, might as well 
              also have a value that <br>indicates last block of the image file, 
              instead of looking at the block<br>size.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; But 
              we're just changing for the sake of changing - the 
              protocol<br>works as-is.<br><br><br>49) since this operation does 
              not have the block number as a parameter, <br>the WTP must 
              determine the block number via the CAPWAP message 
              header<br>sequence number.&nbsp;&nbsp;NOTE: DTLS does not provide 
              in-order delivery of<br>packets. Also, this requires the WTP to 
              remember state. This message<br>element should be re-engineered to 
              have the following subfields: <br>[edited]<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; The 
              control header includes a sequence number, and while we 
              can<br>change the current protocol to match your recommendations, 
              the protocol<br>does work. If it ain't broken...<br><br><br>50) 
              Image Data Response. this is silly. This operation can 
              fail!&nbsp;&nbsp;For <br>example, the WTP can run out of space to 
              store&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the 
              block, or<br>there could be a failure in writing the block to 
              storage. (Or as &quot;Image<br>Data Request&quot;(9.1a) is presently 
              specified, the checksum match could <br>fail.) There needs to be 
              message element that indicates the result.)<br>Note: don't need a 
              block number field, since request and responses 
              are<br>paired.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; We can include a result 
              code<br><br><br>51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief 
              <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-). 
              Seriously, the protocol<br>does work, so what exactly are you 
              looking for?<br><br><br>52) Image Data Response. This is silly. 
              This operation can fail! There<br>needs to be message element that 
              indicates 
              the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
              See above comment.<br><br>53) Reset Request. 
              ...<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; The comment is irrelevant now that Clear 
              Config has changed.<br><br><br>54) Reset Response. this is silly. 
              This operation can fail! There needs<br>to be message element that 
              indicates 
              the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;result.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; 
              I sense a trend. I will stop including these messages from now 
              on.<br><br><br>55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this 
              reported if the condition<br>remains?<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Only 
              required once, I think, but we may want to include some 
              text<br>covering that.<br><br><br>56) the list of events seems 
              understated! <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Text and conditions 
              please<br><br><br>57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have - 
              remove.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Disagree. Providing diagnostics 
              capabilities is required.<br><br><br>58) Mobile Config Request. 
              the actual details of how this works on both <br>splitMAC and 
              especially localMAC are not well specified. That is, only<br>the 
              figures and text in sections 11.1.1 and 11.1.2 provide any clue 
              as<br>to events that would cause an AC to send this message type. 
              Also, there <br>are restrictions on combinations of parameters 
              that can be included in<br>the message.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I 
              wonder whether other folks agree that more details are 
              required.<br><br><br>59) it doesn't say if one message can be used 
              to update more than one <br>STA. It should be 
              able.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; No, otherwise you end up with the problem 
              of associating specific<br>message elements with a given mobile. 
              One mobile per request.<br><br><br>60) IEEE 802.11 Mobile. 
              shouldn't the STA MAC address be included so <br>this message 
              element can be matched with a (4.4.8)Add Mobile 
              message<br>element?<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; I believe this is to your 
              previous point, but the protocol assumes<br>one mobile per 
              request.<br><br><br>61) IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for 
              data traffic to the AC? If<br>so, then why is this an 802.11 
              message element<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Intended to be a way to push 
              policies to the WTP to prioritize<br>mobile 
              traffic.<br><br><br>62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why is a 
              new message type that is<br>802.11 specific needed to modify 
              802.11 WLANs? It seems like the<br>existing &quot;(8.4)Configuration 
              Update Request&quot; message could be used.<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; To be 
              more specific only. <br><br><br>63) note here there are 
              information elements to create, delete, and<br>modify WLANs. 
              However, for message type &quot;(10.1)Mobile Config Request&quot;,<br>there 
              is only add and delete (and the &quot;add&quot; used to modify). 
              <br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; Correct. The protocol requires the AC to 
              resend a new add with a<br>different policy. No specific reason, 
              but if this is deemed<br>inconsistent, we could change 
              it.<br><br><br>64) IEEE 802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping of 
              WLAN IDs to BSSIDs <br>seems like it needs a little more 
              work<br><br>&lt;PRC&gt; What exactly would you like to 
              see?<br><br><br>Pat Calhoun<br>CTO, Wireless Networking Business 
              Unit<br>Cisco Systems<br><br><br><br>&gt; -----Original 
              Message----- <br>&gt; From: David T. Perkins [mailto:<a href="mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dperkins@dsperkins.com</a>]<br>&gt; Sent: Thursday, 
              June 22, 2006 4:31 PM <br>&gt; To: <a href="mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com </a><br>&gt; Subject: [Capwap] A 
              commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations<br>&gt;<br>&gt; HI, 
              <br>&gt;<br>&gt; I've attached a long file that summarizes the 
              operations in<br>&gt; CAPWAP-01.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Enjoy,<br>&gt; 
              /david t. perkins 
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            unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<br><a href="http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap 
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I completely disagree because this would require the AC to push the
necessary keys for the WTP to protect messages 3 and 4. The protocol
does not currently define these mechanisms, and we've already had the
discussions on why it isn't a good idea.
=20

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=20


________________________________

	From: Saravanan Govindan
[mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com]=20
	Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 9:09 PM
	To: Dorothy Stanley
	Cc: capwap@frascone.com
	Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Isse 43/ wasRe:
SecurityConsiderations
=09
=09

	Hi Dorothy,

	=20

	Thank you for the text.

	=20

	This update is related to paragraph 7 of the proposed text.

	=20

	Current proposed text: =20

	"The only way to completely close this window is to provide the
exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any other
approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given the low
relative threat level this presents, the additional complexity
introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That
is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this regard."

	=20

	For consideration:

	"The only way to completely close this window is to provide the
exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any other
approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. This is achieved
by the AC sending message 3 of the 4-way exchange without setting the
KeyRSC field. The WTP then updates message 3 of the 4-way handshake with
the exact KeyRSC value. The exact KeyRSC value MAY be used to completely
overcome this vulnerability."

	=20

	My concern here is about the WG defining design complexity. I
think the specification should let implementers decide what is complex.=20

	=20

	Cheers,

=09
	Saravanan=20

	=20

	=20

	=20

	=20

=09
________________________________


	From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
	Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 6:05 AM
	To: Saravanan Govindan
	Cc: capwap@frascone.com
	Subject: Proposed resolution to Isse 43/ wasRe: [Capwap]
Security Considerations

	=20

	All,
=09
	In San Diego, we reviewed the 4 different options for dealing
with the KeyRSC value issue:
=09
	1. Extend the IEEE 802.11 Binding to deliver the KCK to the WTP
	2. Extend the IEEE 802.11 Binding to deliver the GTK KeyRSC from
the WTP to the AC
	3. Document the issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document
security considerations section,
	do not extend the protocol, and provide no implementation advice
	4.Document the issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document
security considerations section,
	do not extend the protocol, and add text to indicate that the
"AC shoule set the KeyRSC value to zero=20
	or other value".

	=20

	There seemed to be agreement on proceeding with option #4. Below
is proposed text, taken
	from previous postings (Scott, Margaret) to implement option 4.
=09
	Comments welcome,
=09
	Thanks,
=09
	Dorothy
=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
=09
	Proposed Resolution:
=09
	In draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00, change
section 9.1 from
=09
	9.1 IEEE 802.11 Security
=09
	When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP
encryption, the
	   CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.
Derived
	   session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised,
resulting in
	   many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD discourage
the use
	   of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic
solutions
	   such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.
=09
	   STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and
consequently
	   EAP.  Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the
requirements
	   specified [6].
=09
	to
=09
	9.1.  IEEE 802.11 Security
=09
	   When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP
encryption, the
	  CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.  Derived
	  session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised,
resulting in
	  many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD discourage
the use
	  of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic
solutions
	  such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.
=09
	   STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and
consequently
	   EAP.  Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the
requirements
	   specified [6].
=09
	  When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol
	  may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the
link security
	 (packet encryption and integrity verification) is provided by
the WTP or the AC.
	  When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new
security
	  concerns are introduced.
=09
	  However, when the WTP provides link security, a new
vulnerability will
	  exist when the following conditions are true:
=09
	       o the client is not the first to associate to the
WTP/ESSID
	       (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already
exists
=09
	       o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK
=09
	  Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter
(KeyRSC)
	  associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC
anchors the
	  4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC
is not
	  known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.
	  The client will update its Key RSC value to the current valid
KeyRSC
	  upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior
to this,
	  previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was secured with
the existing
	  GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic
as valid.
=09
	  Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or
broadcast
	  frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect
to such
	  replay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is
expected that
	  replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP.
=09
	  The only way to completely close this window is to provide the
	  exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any
	  other approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees.
Given
	  the low relative threat level this presents, the additional
complexity
	  introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not
warranted. That
	  is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this
regard.
=09
	  The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the
4-way
	  802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more
optimal RSC
	  value to use.  Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC
value
	  are outside the scope of this specification.

	On 11/28/06, Saravanan Govindan
<Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com> wrote:=20

	Hello All,

	=20

	Going back to Cheng Hong's earlier post, I think the Security
Considerations section should include Scott Kelly's analysis on running
802.11i in the CAPWAP architecture.=20

	=20

	As to the recommendation involved, I continue to prefer the
approach of assigning the KeyRSC at the WTP. In the interest of moving
forward, I will support the WG's consensus decision on this.=20

	=20

	Cheers,

	=20

	Saravanan

	=20

=09
=09
_________________________________________________________________
	To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please
visit:
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=09
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<BODY lang=3DEN-US vLink=3Dblue link=3Dblue>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D448554014-29112006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
completely disagree because this would require the AC to push the =
necessary keys=20
for the WTP to protect messages 3 and 4. The protocol does not currently =
define=20
these mechanisms, and we've already had the discussions on why it isn't =
a good=20
idea.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>Pat Calhoun<BR>CTO, Wireless Networking =
Business=20
Unit<BR>Cisco Systems</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Saravanan Govindan=20
  [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, =

  November 28, 2006 9:09 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Dorothy Stanley<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  capwap@frascone.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Capwap] Proposed =
resolution to=20
  Isse 43/ wasRe: SecurityConsiderations<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DSection1>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Hi Dorothy,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Thank you for the =
text.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">This update is related to paragraph 7 of the =
proposed=20
  text.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Current proposed text:&nbsp;=20
  <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&#8220;The only way to completely close this =
window is to=20
  provide the exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; =
any other=20
  approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given the low =
relative=20
  threat level this presents, the additional complexity introduced by =
providing=20
  the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That is, this specification =
provides=20
  for a calculated risk in this =
regard.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">For =
consideration:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&#8220;The only way to completely close this =
window is to=20
  provide the exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; =
any other=20
  approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. This is =
achieved by the=20
  AC sending message 3 of the 4-way exchange without setting the KeyRSC =
field.=20
  The WTP then updates message 3 of the 4-way handshake with the exact =
KeyRSC=20
  value. The exact KeyRSC value MAY be used to completely overcome this=20
  vulnerability.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">My concern here is about the WG defining =
design=20
  complexity. I think the specification should let implementers decide =
what is=20
  complex. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>Saravanan <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" =
align=3Dcenter><FONT=20
  face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2>
  </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Tahoma"> Dorothy=20
  Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] <BR><B><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, November 29, =
2006 6:05=20
  AM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> =
<st1:PersonName=20
  w:st=3D"on">Saravanan Govindan</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName=20
  w:st=3D"on">capwap@frascone.com</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Proposed resolution to =
Isse 43/=20
  wasRe: [Capwap] Security =
Considerations</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">All,<BR><BR>In <st1:City =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place=20
  w:st=3D"on">San Diego</st1:place></st1:City>, we reviewed the 4 =
different=20
  options for dealing with the KeyRSC value issue:<BR><BR>1. Extend the =
IEEE=20
  802.11 Binding to deliver the KCK to the WTP<BR>2. Extend the IEEE =
802.11=20
  Binding to deliver the GTK KeyRSC from the WTP to the AC<BR>3. =
Document the=20
  issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document security considerations=20
  section,<BR>do not extend the protocol, and provide no implementation=20
  advice<BR>4.Document the issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document =
security=20
  considerations section,<BR>do not extend the protocol, and add text to =

  indicate that the "AC shoule set the KeyRSC value to zero <BR>or other =

  value".<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
  color=3Dnavy size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: =
navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
  size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">There seemed to be agreement =
on=20
  proceeding with option #4. Below is proposed text, taken<BR>from =
previous=20
  postings (Scott, Margaret) to implement option 4.<BR><BR>Comments=20
  =
welcome,<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR><BR>Dorothy<BR>-------------------------------=
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------------------------<BR><BR>Proposed=20
  Resolution:<BR><BR>In draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00, =
change=20
  section 9.1 from<BR><BR>9.1 IEEE 802.11 Security<BR><BR>When used with =
an IEEE=20
  802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, the<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; CAPWAP =
protocol=20
  does not add any new vulnerabilities.&nbsp; Derived<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
session=20
  keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting =
in<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  many well-documented attacks.&nbsp; Implementors SHOULD discourage the =

  use<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; of WEP and encourage use of technically sound=20
  cryptographic solutions<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; such as those in an IEEE =
802.11=20
  RSN.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; STA authentication is performed using IEEE =
802.lX,=20
  and consequently<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; EAP.&nbsp; Implementors SHOULD use =
EAP=20
  methods meeting the requirements<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; specified=20
  [6].<BR><BR>to<BR><BR>9.1. &nbsp;IEEE 802.11 Security<BR><BR>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;When=20
  used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, =
the<BR>&nbsp;=20
  CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities. =
&nbsp;Derived<BR>&nbsp;=20
  session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting=20
  in<BR>&nbsp; many well-documented attacks. &nbsp;Implementors SHOULD=20
  discourage the use<BR>&nbsp; of WEP and encourage use of technically =
sound=20
  cryptographic solutions<BR>&nbsp; such as those in an IEEE 802.11=20
  RSN.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; STA authentication is performed using IEEE =
802.lX,=20
  and consequently<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; EAP.&nbsp; Implementors SHOULD use =
EAP=20
  methods meeting the requirements<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; specified =
[6].<BR><BR>&nbsp;=20
  When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol<BR>&nbsp; =
may=20
  introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the link=20
  security<BR>&nbsp;(packet encryption and integrity verification) is =
provided=20
  by the WTP or the AC.<BR>&nbsp; When the link security function is =
provided by=20
  the AC, no new security<BR>&nbsp; concerns are =
introduced.<BR><BR>&nbsp;=20
  However, when the WTP provides link security, a new vulnerability=20
  will<BR>&nbsp; exist when the following conditions are =
true:<BR><BR>&nbsp;=20
  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;o the client is not the first to associate to the=20
  WTP/ESSID<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(i.e. other clients are =
associated),=20
  and a GTK already exists<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;o traffic =
has been=20
  broadcast under the existing GTK<BR><BR>&nbsp; Under these =
circumstances, the=20
  receive sequence counter (KeyRSC)<BR>&nbsp; associated with the GTK is =

  non-zero, but because the AC anchors the<BR>&nbsp; 4-way handshake =
with the=20
  client, the exact value of the KeyRSC is not<BR>&nbsp; known when the =
AC=20
  constructs the message containing the GTK.<BR>&nbsp; The client will =
update=20
  its Key RSC value to the current valid KeyRSC<BR>&nbsp; upon receipt =
of a=20
  valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior to this,<BR>&nbsp; =
previous=20
  multicast/broadcast traffic which was secured with the =
existing<BR>&nbsp; GTK=20
  may be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic as=20
  valid.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Typically, busy networks will produce numerous =
multicast=20
  or broadcast<BR>&nbsp; frames per second, so the window of opportunity =
with=20
  respect to such<BR>&nbsp; replay is expected to be very small. In most =

  conditions, it is expected that<BR>&nbsp; replayed frames could be =
detected=20
  (and logged) by the WTP.<BR><BR>&nbsp; The only way to completely =
close this=20
  window is to provide the<BR>&nbsp; exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of =
the=20
  4-way handshake; any<BR>&nbsp; other approach simply narrows the =
window to=20
  varying degrees. Given<BR>&nbsp; the low relative threat level this =
presents,=20
  the additional complexity<BR>&nbsp; introduced by providing the exact =
KeyRSC=20
  value is not warranted. That<BR>&nbsp; is, this specification provides =
for a=20
  calculated risk in this regard.<BR><BR>&nbsp; The AC SHOULD use an RSC =
of 0=20
  when computing message-3 of the 4-way<BR>&nbsp; 802.11i handshake, =
unless the=20
  AC has knowledge of a more optimal RSC<BR>&nbsp; value to use.=20
  &nbsp;Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC value<BR>&nbsp; =
are=20
  outside the scope of this specification.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3Dgmailquote><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
  size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">On 11/28/06, <st1:PersonName=20
  w:st=3D"on"><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Saravanan=20
  Govindan</SPAN></B></st1:PersonName> &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com">Saravanan.Govindan@sg=
.panasonic.com</A>&gt;=20
  wrote: </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
  <DIV vlink=3D"purple" link=3D"blue">
  <DIV>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hello=20
  All,</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Going back to Cheng =
Hong's earlier=20
  post, I think the Security Considerations section should include Scott =
Kelly's=20
  analysis on running 802.11i in the CAPWAP architecture.=20
  </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">As to the recommendation =
involved,=20
  I continue to prefer the approach of assigning the KeyRSC at the WTP. =
In the=20
  interest of moving forward, I will support the WG's consensus decision =
on=20
  this. </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Cheers,</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Saravanan</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
  size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><BR>_______________________________________________________________=
__<BR>To=20
  unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<BR><A=20
  href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap"=20
  =
target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap</A><BR>=
<BR>Archives:=20
  <A href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap"=20
  target=3D_blank>http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20
  </A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML=
>

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 07:12:18 -0800
From: "Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>
To: "Saravanan Govindan" <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Isse 43/ wasRe: Security
	Considerations
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Hi Saravanan,

Adoption of  text proposed for consideration would lead us back to option 1,
since
the WTP cannot update a field in Message 3 without knowledge of the KCK.
Option 1 is not the option that seemed to be agreed to in San Diego, and
thus not consistent
with text for Option 4, which is what is intended here.

Thanks,

Dorothy

On 11/28/06, Saravanan Govindan <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com> wrote:
>
>  Hi Dorothy,
>
>
>
> Thank you for the text.
>
>
>
> This update is related to paragraph 7 of the proposed text.
>
>
>
> Current proposed text:
>
> "The only way to completely close this window is to provide the exact
> KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any other approach simply
> narrows the window to varying degrees. Given the low relative threat level
> this presents, the additional complexity introduced by providing the exact
> KeyRSC value is not warranted. That is, this specification provides for a
> calculated risk in this regard."
>
>
>
> For consideration:
>
> "The only way to completely close this window is to provide the exact
> KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any other approach simply
> narrows the window to varying degrees. This is achieved by the AC sending
> message 3 of the 4-way exchange without setting the KeyRSC field. The WTP
> then updates message 3 of the 4-way handshake with the exact KeyRSC value.
> The exact KeyRSC value MAY be used to completely overcome this
> vulnerability."
>
>
>
> My concern here is about the WG defining design complexity. I think the
> specification should let implementers decide what is complex.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Saravanan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 29, 2006 6:05 AM
> *To:* Saravanan Govindan
> *Cc:* capwap@frascone.com
> *Subject:* Proposed resolution to Isse 43/ wasRe: [Capwap] Security
> Considerations
>
>
>
> All,
>
> In San Diego, we reviewed the 4 different options for dealing with the
> KeyRSC value issue:
>
> 1. Extend the IEEE 802.11 Binding to deliver the KCK to the WTP
> 2. Extend the IEEE 802.11 Binding to deliver the GTK KeyRSC from the WTP
> to the AC
> 3. Document the issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document security
> considerations section,
> do not extend the protocol, and provide no implementation advice
> 4.Document the issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document security
> considerations section,
> do not extend the protocol, and add text to indicate that the "AC shoule
> set the KeyRSC value to zero
> or other value".
>
>
>
> There seemed to be agreement on proceeding with option #4. Below is
> proposed text, taken
> from previous postings (Scott, Margaret) to implement option 4.
>
> Comments welcome,
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dorothy
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Proposed Resolution:
>
> In draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00, change section 9.1from
>
> 9.1 IEEE 802.11 Security
>
> When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, the
>    CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.  Derived
>    session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting in
>    many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD discourage the use
>    of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic solutions
>    such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.
>
>    STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and consequently
>    EAP.  Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the requirements
>    specified [6].
>
> to
>
> 9.1.  IEEE 802.11 Security
>
>    When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, the
>   CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.  Derived
>   session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting in
>   many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD discourage the use
>   of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic solutions
>   such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.
>
>    STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and consequently
>    EAP.  Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the requirements
>    specified [6].
>
>   When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol
>   may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the link
> security
>  (packet encryption and integrity verification) is provided by the WTP or
> the AC.
>   When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new security
>   concerns are introduced.
>
>   However, when the WTP provides link security, a new vulnerability will
>   exist when the following conditions are true:
>
>        o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID
>        (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already exists
>
>        o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK
>
>   Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter (KeyRSC)
>   associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors the
>   4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC is not
>   known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.
>   The client will update its Key RSC value to the current valid KeyRSC
>   upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior to this,
>   previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was secured with the existing
>   GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic as valid.
>
>   Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or broadcast
>   frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to such
>   replay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is expected
> that
>   replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP.
>
>   The only way to completely close this window is to provide the
>   exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any
>   other approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given
>   the low relative threat level this presents, the additional complexity
>   introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That
>   is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this regard.
>
>   The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the 4-way
>   802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal RSC
>   value to use.  Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC value
>   are outside the scope of this specification.
>
> On 11/28/06, *Saravanan Govindan* <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
>
>
> Going back to Cheng Hong's earlier post, I think the Security
> Considerations section should include Scott Kelly's analysis on running
> 802.11i in the CAPWAP architecture.
>
>
>
> As to the recommendation involved, I continue to prefer the approach of
> assigning the KeyRSC at the WTP. In the interest of moving forward, I will
> support the WG's consensus decision on this.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Saravanan
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
>
>
>

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Hi Saravanan,<br>
<br>
Adoption of&nbsp; text proposed for consideration would lead us back to option 1, since<br>
the WTP cannot update a field in Message 3 without knowledge of the KCK.<br>
Option 1 is not the option that seemed to be agreed to in San Diego, and thus not consistent<br>
with text for Option 4, which is what is intended here.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Dorothy<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 11/28/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Saravanan Govindan</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com">Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">












<div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EN-US">

<div>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Hi Dorothy,</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Thank you for the text.</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">This update is related to paragraph 7 of the proposed text.</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Current proposed text:&nbsp; </span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">"The only way to completely close this window is to provide the
exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any other approach
simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given the low relative threat
level this presents, the additional complexity introduced by providing the
exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That is, this specification provides for a
calculated risk in this regard."</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">For consideration:</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">"The only way to completely close this window is to provide the
exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any other approach
simply narrows the window to varying degrees. This is achieved by the AC
sending message 3 of the 4-way exchange without setting the KeyRSC field. The
WTP then updates message 3 of the 4-way handshake with the exact KeyRSC value.
The exact KeyRSC value MAY be used to completely overcome this
vulnerability."</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">My concern here is about the WG defining design complexity. I think the
specification should let implementers decide what is complex. </span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Cheers,</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
Saravanan </span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<div>

<div style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">

<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">

</span></font></div>

<p><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> Dorothy Stanley
[mailto:<a href="mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dstanley1389@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, November 29, 2006
6:05 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Saravanan
 Govindan<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> <a href="mailto:capwap@frascone.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">capwap@frascone.com</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Proposed resolution to
Isse 43/ wasRe: [Capwap] Security Considerations</span></font></p>

</div><span class="q">

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">All,<br>
<br>
In San Diego, we
reviewed the 4 different options for dealing with the KeyRSC value issue:<br>
<br>
1. Extend the IEEE 802.11 Binding to deliver the KCK to the WTP<br>
2. Extend the IEEE 802.11 Binding to deliver the GTK KeyRSC from the WTP to the
AC<br>
3. Document the issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document security
considerations section,<br>
do not extend the protocol, and provide no implementation advice<br>
4.Document the issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document security
considerations section,<br>
do not extend the protocol, and add text to indicate that the &quot;AC shoule
set the KeyRSC value to zero <br>
or other value&quot;.</span></font></p>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">&nbsp;</span></font></p></span><div><span class="e" id="q_10f321c2337a6b05_2">

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">There seemed to be
agreement on proceeding with option #4. Below is proposed text, taken<br>
from previous postings (Scott, Margaret) to implement option 4.<br>
<br>
Comments welcome,<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Dorothy<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Proposed Resolution:<br>
<br>
In draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00, change section 9.1 from<br>
<br>
9.1 IEEE 802.11 Security<br>
<br>
When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, the<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.&nbsp;
Derived<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting
in<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; many well-documented attacks.&nbsp; Implementors SHOULD discourage
the use<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic
solutions<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and
consequently<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; EAP.&nbsp; Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the
requirements<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; specified [6].<br>
<br>
to<br>
<br>
9.1. &nbsp;IEEE 802.11 Security<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption,
the<br>
&nbsp; CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities. &nbsp;Derived<br>
&nbsp; session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting in<br>
&nbsp; many well-documented attacks. &nbsp;Implementors SHOULD discourage the
use<br>
&nbsp; of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic solutions<br>
&nbsp; such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and
consequently<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; EAP.&nbsp; Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the
requirements<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; specified [6].<br>
<br>
&nbsp; When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol<br>
&nbsp; may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the link
security<br>
&nbsp;(packet encryption and integrity verification) is provided by the WTP or
the AC.<br>
&nbsp; When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new security<br>
&nbsp; concerns are introduced.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; However, when the WTP provides link security, a new vulnerability will<br>
&nbsp; exist when the following conditions are true:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;o the client is not the first to associate to the
WTP/ESSID<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK
already exists<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK<br>
<br>
&nbsp; Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter (KeyRSC)<br>
&nbsp; associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors the<br>
&nbsp; 4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC is not<br>
&nbsp; known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.<br>
&nbsp; The client will update its Key RSC value to the current valid KeyRSC<br>
&nbsp; upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior to this,<br>
&nbsp; previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was secured with the existing<br>
&nbsp; GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic as valid.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or broadcast<br>
&nbsp; frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to such<br>
&nbsp; replay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is expected
that<br>
&nbsp; replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; The only way to completely close this window is to provide the<br>
&nbsp; exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any<br>
&nbsp; other approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given<br>
&nbsp; the low relative threat level this presents, the additional complexity<br>
&nbsp; introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That<br>
&nbsp; is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this regard.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the 4-way<br>
&nbsp; 802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal RSC<br>
&nbsp; value to use. &nbsp;Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC value<br>
&nbsp; are outside the scope of this specification.</span></font></p>

<div>

<p><span><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On 11/28/06, <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Saravanan Govindan</span></b> &lt;<a href="mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com</a>&gt;
wrote: </span></font></span></p>

<div link="blue" vlink="purple">

<div>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Hello
All,</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Going
back to Cheng Hong's earlier post, I think the Security Considerations section
should include Scott Kelly's analysis on running 802.11i in the CAPWAP
architecture. </span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">As
to the recommendation involved, I continue to prefer the approach of assigning
the KeyRSC at the WTP. In the interest of moving forward, I will support the
WG's consensus decision on this. </span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Cheers,</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Saravanan</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</span></div></div>

</div>



</blockquote></div><br>

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To: pcalhoun@cisco.com, Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com,
	dstanley1389@gmail.com
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I thought the text under review is to provide full analysis of the options 
to address the KeyRSC vulnerability.

Saravanan




----Original Message Follows----
From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "Saravanan Govindan" <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>,"Dorothy 
Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>
CC: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Isse 43/ 
wasRe:SecurityConsiderations
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 06:41:48 -0800

I completely disagree because this would require the AC to push the
necessary keys for the WTP to protect messages 3 and 4. The protocol
does not currently define these mechanisms, and we've already had the
discussions on why it isn't a good idea.


Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems




________________________________

	From: Saravanan Govindan
[mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com]
	Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 9:09 PM
	To: Dorothy Stanley
	Cc: capwap@frascone.com
	Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Isse 43/ wasRe:
SecurityConsiderations



	Hi Dorothy,



	Thank you for the text.



	This update is related to paragraph 7 of the proposed text.



	Current proposed text:

	"The only way to completely close this window is to provide the
exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any other
approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given the low
relative threat level this presents, the additional complexity
introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That
is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this regard."



	For consideration:

	"The only way to completely close this window is to provide the
exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any other
approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. This is achieved
by the AC sending message 3 of the 4-way exchange without setting the
KeyRSC field. The WTP then updates message 3 of the 4-way handshake with
the exact KeyRSC value. The exact KeyRSC value MAY be used to completely
overcome this vulnerability."



	My concern here is about the WG defining design complexity. I
think the specification should let implementers decide what is complex.



	Cheers,


	Saravanan










________________________________


	From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
	Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 6:05 AM
	To: Saravanan Govindan
	Cc: capwap@frascone.com
	Subject: Proposed resolution to Isse 43/ wasRe: [Capwap]
Security Considerations



	All,

	In San Diego, we reviewed the 4 different options for dealing
with the KeyRSC value issue:

	1. Extend the IEEE 802.11 Binding to deliver the KCK to the WTP
	2. Extend the IEEE 802.11 Binding to deliver the GTK KeyRSC from
the WTP to the AC
	3. Document the issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document
security considerations section,
	do not extend the protocol, and provide no implementation advice
	4.Document the issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document
security considerations section,
	do not extend the protocol, and add text to indicate that the
"AC shoule set the KeyRSC value to zero
	or other value".



	There seemed to be agreement on proceeding with option #4. Below
is proposed text, taken
	from previous postings (Scott, Margaret) to implement option 4.

	Comments welcome,

	Thanks,

	Dorothy

------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------

	Proposed Resolution:

	In draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00, change
section 9.1 from

	9.1 IEEE 802.11 Security

	When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP
encryption, the
	   CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.
Derived
	   session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised,
resulting in
	   many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD discourage
the use
	   of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic
solutions
	   such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.

	   STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and
consequently
	   EAP.  Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the
requirements
	   specified [6].

	to

	9.1.  IEEE 802.11 Security

	   When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP
encryption, the
	  CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.  Derived
	  session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised,
resulting in
	  many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD discourage
the use
	  of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic
solutions
	  such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.

	   STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and
consequently
	   EAP.  Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the
requirements
	   specified [6].

	  When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol
	  may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the
link security
	 (packet encryption and integrity verification) is provided by
the WTP or the AC.
	  When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new
security
	  concerns are introduced.

	  However, when the WTP provides link security, a new
vulnerability will
	  exist when the following conditions are true:

	       o the client is not the first to associate to the
WTP/ESSID
	       (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already
exists

	       o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK

	  Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter
(KeyRSC)
	  associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC
anchors the
	  4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC
is not
	  known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.
	  The client will update its Key RSC value to the current valid
KeyRSC
	  upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior
to this,
	  previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was secured with
the existing
	  GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic
as valid.

	  Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or
broadcast
	  frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect
to such
	  replay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is
expected that
	  replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP.

	  The only way to completely close this window is to provide the
	  exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any
	  other approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees.
Given
	  the low relative threat level this presents, the additional
complexity
	  introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not
warranted. That
	  is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this
regard.

	  The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the
4-way
	  802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more
optimal RSC
	  value to use.  Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC
value
	  are outside the scope of this specification.

	On 11/28/06, Saravanan Govindan
<Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com> wrote:

	Hello All,



	Going back to Cheng Hong's earlier post, I think the Security
Considerations section should include Scott Kelly's analysis on running
802.11i in the CAPWAP architecture.



	As to the recommendation involved, I continue to prefer the
approach of assigning the KeyRSC at the WTP. In the interest of moving
forward, I will support the WG's consensus decision on this.



	Cheers,



	Saravanan





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Subject: [Capwap] CONSENSUS CHECK:  Proposed resolution to Issue 43
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Hi All,

Per standard IETF procedure, all consensus decisions reached at a WG  
meeting must be checked on the IETF mailing list.

In San Diego, we reached strong consensus of those present to close  
the KeyRSC issue (Issue #43) by including text about the tradeoffs in  
the IEEE 802.11 binding document security considerations section and  
stating that the AC should set the KeyRSC value to zero or a more  
optimal value.  Dorothy Stanley has proposed specific text below.

If you have tuning suggestions for Dorothy's text, please respond to  
Dorothy's e-mail from November 28th.

If anyone who was not present at the San Diego meeting has a strong  
objection to this course of action, please respond to this message by  
Wednesday, December 6th.  Please state why you object to this course  
of action and what course of action you would prefer.

Thanks,
Margaret


Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>
> Date: November 28, 2006 5:05:17 PM EST
> To: "Saravanan Govindan" <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>
> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Isse 43/ wasRe: Security  
> Considerations
>
[snip]
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Proposed Resolution:
>
> In draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00, change section  
> 9.1 from
>
> 9.1 IEEE 802.11 Security
>
> When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, the
>    CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.  Derived
>    session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised,  
> resulting in
>    many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD discourage  
> the use
>    of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic  
> solutions
>    such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.
>
>    STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and consequently
>    EAP.  Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the requirements
>    specified [6].
>
> to
>
> 9.1.  IEEE 802.11 Security
>
>    When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP  
> encryption, the
>   CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.  Derived
>   session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised,  
> resulting in
>   many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD discourage the  
> use
>   of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic  
> solutions
>   such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.
>
>    STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and consequently
>    EAP.  Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the requirements
>    specified [6].
>
>   When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol
>   may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the link  
> security
>  (packet encryption and integrity verification) is provided by the  
> WTP or the AC.
>   When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new  
> security
>   concerns are introduced.
>
>   However, when the WTP provides link security, a new vulnerability  
> will
>   exist when the following conditions are true:
>
>        o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID
>        (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already exists
>
>        o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK
>
>   Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter (KeyRSC)
>   associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors the
>   4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC is  
> not
>   known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.
>   The client will update its Key RSC value to the current valid KeyRSC
>   upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior to  
> this,
>   previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was secured with the  
> existing
>   GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic as  
> valid.
>
>   Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or  
> broadcast
>   frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to such
>   replay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is  
> expected that
>   replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP.
>
>   The only way to completely close this window is to provide the
>   exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any
>   other approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given
>   the low relative threat level this presents, the additional  
> complexity
>   introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted.  
> That
>   is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this  
> regard.
>
>   The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the 4-way
>   802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal RSC
>   value to use.  Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC value
>   are outside the scope of this specification.
>
> On 11/28/06, Saravanan Govindan  
> <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com> wrote:
> Hello All,
>
>
> Going back to Cheng Hong's earlier post, I think the Security  
> Considerations section should include Scott Kelly's analysis on  
> running 802.11i in the CAPWAP architecture.
>
>
> As to the recommendation involved, I continue to prefer the  
> approach of assigning the KeyRSC at the WTP. In the interest of  
> moving forward, I will support the WG's consensus decision on this.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Saravanan
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
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From bale@bancadeltempo.it Wed Nov 29 13:41:05 2006
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Hi,
=20
V / A G R A
C / A L l S
V A L / U M
=20
Extra Low P R / C E S!
=20
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  _____ =20

others come, to more pressing business. Since I am now in the open, so


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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Extra Low P R / C E S!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>web address <A =
href=3D"http://www.xaserunhfunhadcunhas.com">http://www.xaserunhfunhadcun=
has.com</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><HR></DIV><DIV>others come, to more pressing business. Since I am =
now in the open, so<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From chiou@carstarmanitoba.ca Wed Nov 29 13:57:25 2006
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Hi,
=20
V / A G R A
C / A L l S
V A L / U M
=20
Extra Low P R / C E S!
=20
web address http://www.xaserunhfunhadcunhas.com
=20
  _____ =20

announced a few minutes ago. I know that all of you, right across the


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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Extra Low P R / C E S!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><HR></DIV><DIV>announced a few minutes ago. I know that all of you, =
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From oextensible@mchsi.com Wed Nov 29 15:50:13 2006
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From: "Dillon Lucero" <oextensible@mchsi.com>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: on of trounce
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:50:19 -0600
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Alternative: Ask no questions and hear no lies



From haru@kabink.com Wed Nov 29 20:00:07 2006
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Hi,
=20
V / A G R A
C / A L l S
V A L / U M
=20
Extra Low P R / C E S!
=20
web address http://www.vertuinjdefunhasui.com
=20
  _____ =20

has got to be a change of plan. When I came up with the idea for this


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<DIV>Extra Low P R / C E S!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>web address <A =
href=3D"http://www.vertuinjdefunhasui.com">http://www.vertuinjdefunhasui.=
com</A></DIV>
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<DIV><HR></DIV><DIV>has  got to be a change of plan. When I came up with =
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From upcyzmz@cms1.com Wed Nov 29 22:11:58 2006
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Subject: re: get this to marketing please
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<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3><i><b>BLNM Becomes Primary VOIP Agent For China Telcom and China Netcom!</b></i></FONT></DIV>
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Hi Dorothy,

=20

I actually agree with option 4. I would just like to suggest a slight
editorial to clarify one option for the KeyRSC vulnerability.=20

=20

Cheers,


Saravanan

=20

=20

=20

=20

________________________________

From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 11:12 PM
To: Saravanan Govindan
Cc: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: Proposed resolution to Isse 43/ wasRe: [Capwap] Security
Considerations

=20

Hi Saravanan,

Adoption of  text proposed for consideration would lead us back to
option 1, since
the WTP cannot update a field in Message 3 without knowledge of the KCK.
Option 1 is not the option that seemed to be agreed to in San Diego, and
thus not consistent
with text for Option 4, which is what is intended here.

Thanks,

Dorothy

On 11/28/06, Saravanan Govindan <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>
wrote:=20

Hi Dorothy,

=20

Thank you for the text.

=20

This update is related to paragraph 7 of the proposed text.

=20

Current proposed text: =20

"The only way to completely close this window is to provide the exact
KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any other approach
simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given the low relative
threat level this presents, the additional complexity introduced by
providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That is, this
specification provides for a calculated risk in this regard."

=20

For consideration:

"The only way to completely close this window is to provide the exact
KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any other approach
simply narrows the window to varying degrees. This is achieved by the AC
sending message 3 of the 4-way exchange without setting the KeyRSC
field. The WTP then updates message 3 of the 4-way handshake with the
exact KeyRSC value. The exact KeyRSC value MAY be used to completely
overcome this vulnerability."

=20

My concern here is about the WG defining design complexity. I think the
specification should let implementers decide what is complex.=20

=20

Cheers,


Saravanan=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

________________________________

From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 6:05 AM
To: Saravanan Govindan
Cc: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Proposed resolution to Isse 43/ wasRe: [Capwap] Security
Considerations

=20

All,

In San Diego, we reviewed the 4 different options for dealing with the
KeyRSC value issue:

1. Extend the IEEE 802.11 Binding to deliver the KCK to the WTP
2. Extend the IEEE 802.11 Binding to deliver the GTK KeyRSC from the WTP
to the AC
3. Document the issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document security
considerations section,
do not extend the protocol, and provide no implementation advice
4.Document the issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document security
considerations section,
do not extend the protocol, and add text to indicate that the "AC shoule
set the KeyRSC value to zero=20
or other value".

=20

There seemed to be agreement on proceeding with option #4. Below is
proposed text, taken
from previous postings (Scott, Margaret) to implement option 4.

Comments welcome,

Thanks,

Dorothy
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------

Proposed Resolution:

In draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00, change section 9.1
from

9.1 IEEE 802.11 Security

When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, the
   CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.  Derived
   session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting in
   many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD discourage the use
   of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic solutions
   such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.

   STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and consequently
   EAP.  Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the requirements
   specified [6].

to

9.1.  IEEE 802.11 Security

   When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, the
  CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.  Derived
  session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting in
  many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD discourage the use
  of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic solutions
  such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.

   STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and consequently
   EAP.  Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the requirements
   specified [6].

  When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol
  may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the link
security
 (packet encryption and integrity verification) is provided by the WTP
or the AC.
  When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new security
  concerns are introduced.

  However, when the WTP provides link security, a new vulnerability will
  exist when the following conditions are true:

       o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID
       (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already exists

       o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK

  Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter (KeyRSC)
  associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors the
  4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC is not
  known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.
  The client will update its Key RSC value to the current valid KeyRSC
  upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior to
this,
  previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was secured with the
existing
  GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic as valid.

  Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or broadcast
  frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to such
  replay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is
expected that
  replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP.

  The only way to completely close this window is to provide the
  exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any
  other approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given
  the low relative threat level this presents, the additional complexity
  introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That
  is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this regard.

  The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the 4-way
  802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal RSC
  value to use.  Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC value
  are outside the scope of this specification.

On 11/28/06, Saravanan Govindan < Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com
<mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com> > wrote:=20

Hello All,

=20

Going back to Cheng Hong's earlier post, I think the Security
Considerations section should include Scott Kelly's analysis on running
802.11i in the CAPWAP architecture.=20

=20

As to the recommendation involved, I continue to prefer the approach of
assigning the KeyRSC at the WTP. In the interest of moving forward, I
will support the WG's consensus decision on this.=20

=20

Cheers,

=20

Saravanan

=20


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=20

=20


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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi =
Dorothy,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I actually agree with option 4. I =
would
just like to suggest a slight editorial to clarify one option for the =
KeyRSC
vulnerability. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><br>
Saravanan<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Dorothy Stanley
[mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, November =
29, 2006
11:12 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">Saravanan
 Govindan</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">capwap@frascone.com</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Proposed =
resolution
to Isse 43/ wasRe: [Capwap] Security =
Considerations</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Hi =
Saravanan,<br>
<br>
Adoption of&nbsp; text proposed for consideration would lead us back to =
option
1, since<br>
the WTP cannot update a field in Message 3 without knowledge of the =
KCK.<br>
Option 1 is not the option that seemed to be agreed to in <st1:City =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place
 w:st=3D"on">San Diego</st1:place></st1:City>, and thus not =
consistent<br>
with text for Option 4, which is what is intended here.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Dorothy<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dgmailquote><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On 11/28/06, <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on"><b><span
 style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Saravanan =
Govindan</span></b></st1:PersonName> &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com">Saravanan.Govindan@sg=
.panasonic.com</a>&gt;
wrote:</span></font></span> <o:p></o:p></p>

<div link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue>

<div>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Hi
Dorothy,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Thank you
for the text.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>This
update is related to paragraph 7 of the proposed =
text.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Current
proposed text:&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&quot;The
only way to completely close this window is to provide the exact KeyRSC =
value
in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any other approach simply narrows =
the
window to varying degrees. Given the low relative threat level this =
presents,
the additional complexity introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value =
is not
warranted. That is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in =
this
regard.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>For
consideration:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&quot;The
only way to completely close this window is to provide the exact KeyRSC =
value
in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any other approach simply narrows =
the
window to varying degrees. This is achieved by the AC sending message 3 =
of the
4-way exchange without setting the KeyRSC field. The WTP then updates =
message 3
of the 4-way handshake with the exact KeyRSC value. The exact KeyRSC =
value MAY
be used to completely overcome this =
vulnerability.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>My
concern here is about the WG defining design complexity. I think the
specification should let implementers decide what is complex. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
Saravanan <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></font></div>

<p><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Dorothy Stanley =
[mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">dstanley1389@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, November =
29, 2006
6:05 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">Saravanan
 Govindan</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> <a
href=3D"mailto:capwap@frascone.com" =
target=3D"_blank">capwap@frascone.com</a><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Proposed =
resolution to
Isse 43/ wasRe: [Capwap] Security =
Considerations</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>All,<br>
<br>
In <st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">San =
Diego</st1:place></st1:City>,
we reviewed the 4 different options for dealing with the KeyRSC value =
issue:<br>
<br>
1. Extend the IEEE 802.11 Binding to deliver the KCK to the WTP<br>
2. Extend the IEEE 802.11 Binding to deliver the GTK KeyRSC from the WTP =
to the
AC<br>
3. Document the issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document security =
considerations
section,<br>
do not extend the protocol, and provide no implementation advice<br>
4.Document the issue in the IEEE 802.11 binding document security
considerations section,<br>
do not extend the protocol, and add text to indicate that the &quot;AC =
shoule
set the KeyRSC value to zero <br>
or other value&quot;.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>=


<div><span id=3D"q_10f321c2337a6b05_2">

<p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>There seemed to be agreement on proceeding =
with option
#4. Below is proposed text, taken<br>
from previous postings (Scott, Margaret) to implement option 4.<br>
<br>
Comments welcome,<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Dorothy<br>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Proposed Resolution:<br>
<br>
In draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00, change section 9.1 =
from<br>
<br>
9.1 IEEE 802.11 Security<br>
<br>
When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, =
the<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.&nbsp;
Derived<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, =
resulting
in<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; many well-documented attacks.&nbsp; Implementors SHOULD =
discourage
the use<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic
solutions<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and
consequently<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; EAP.&nbsp; Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the
requirements<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; specified [6].<br>
<br>
to<br>
<br>
9.1. &nbsp;IEEE 802.11 Security<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP =
encryption,
the<br>
&nbsp; CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities. =
&nbsp;Derived<br>
&nbsp; session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, =
resulting in<br>
&nbsp; many well-documented attacks. &nbsp;Implementors SHOULD =
discourage the
use<br>
&nbsp; of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic =
solutions<br>
&nbsp; such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and
consequently<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; EAP.&nbsp; Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the
requirements<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; specified [6].<br>
<br>
&nbsp; When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol<br>
&nbsp; may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the link
security<br>
&nbsp;(packet encryption and integrity verification) is provided by the =
WTP or
the AC.<br>
&nbsp; When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new =
security<br>
&nbsp; concerns are introduced.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; However, when the WTP provides link security, a new vulnerability =
will<br>
&nbsp; exist when the following conditions are true:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;o the client is not the first to associate to =
the
WTP/ESSID<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(i.e. other clients are associated), and a =
GTK
already exists<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;o traffic has been broadcast under the =
existing GTK<br>
<br>
&nbsp; Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter =
(KeyRSC)<br>
&nbsp; associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors =
the<br>
&nbsp; 4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC is =
not<br>
&nbsp; known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.<br>
&nbsp; The client will update its Key RSC value to the current valid =
KeyRSC<br>
&nbsp; upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior to =
this,<br>
&nbsp; previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was secured with the =
existing<br>
&nbsp; GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic as =
valid.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or =
broadcast<br>
&nbsp; frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to =
such<br>
&nbsp; replay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is =
expected
that<br>
&nbsp; replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; The only way to completely close this window is to provide =
the<br>
&nbsp; exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any<br>
&nbsp; other approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. =
Given<br>
&nbsp; the low relative threat level this presents, the additional =
complexity<br>
&nbsp; introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. =
That<br>
&nbsp; is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this =
regard.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the =
4-way<br>
&nbsp; 802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal =
RSC<br>
&nbsp; value to use. &nbsp;Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC =
value<br>
&nbsp; are outside the scope of this =
specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On
11/28/06, <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on"><b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Saravanan
 Govindan</span></b></st1:PersonName> &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com" target=3D"_blank">
Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com</a>&gt; wrote: =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>

<div>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Hello
All,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o=
:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Going
back to Cheng Hong's earlier post, I think the Security Considerations =
section
should include Scott Kelly's analysis on running 802.11i in the CAPWAP
architecture. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o=
:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>As
to the recommendation involved, I continue to prefer the approach of =
assigning
the KeyRSC at the WTP. In the interest of moving forward, I will support =
the
WG's consensus decision on this. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o=
:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Cheers,</span></font><o:p></=
o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o=
:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Saravanan</span></font><o:p>=
</o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

<p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
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To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:<br>
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Archives: <a href=3D"http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap" =
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</div>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</span>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
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From: Charles Clancy <clancy@cs.umd.edu>
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I agree with keeping the Session ID.  However, I think its length should 
be increased to at least 64 bits to make it difficult to guess if both 
control and data channels are encrypted.

I think we also need some text in the security considerations section 
about bindings between the DTLS and CAPWAP layers.  Since the DTLS API 
doesn't export a session ID for us to use, implementations will need to 
be sure some unique identifier is available to associate decrypted 
CAPWAP packets with the correct WTP session at the AC.  The session ID 
in the CAPWAP header is not bound to DTLS in any way, so it is by itself 
insufficient.  I wrote some text after the IETF... I'll try and dig it up.

-- 
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy

Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
> All,
> 
> Following the proposal made at the IETF meeting in San Diego, please
> find below the proposed text for the handling of this issue:
> 
> 4.2.  CAPWAP Header
> 
> [...]
> 
>         0                   1                   2                   3
>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |Version|   RID   |  HLEN   |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|     Flags     |
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |          Fragment ID          |     Frag Offset         |Rsvd |
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |                          Session ID                           |
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |                 (optional) Radio MAC Address                  |
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |            (optional) Wireless Specific Information           |
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |                        Payload ....                           |
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> [...]
>    Session ID:  The 32-bit field contains a pseudo-random session
>       identifier thatis used to help match control frames with data
>       frames.  The use of the Session ID field is further described in
>       Section 6.1.
> [...]
> 
> 5.1.  Discovery Request Message
> [...]
>    The Discovery Request message may be sent as a unicast, broadcast or
>    multicast message.  The Session ID field in the CAPWAP Header MUST be
>    set to zero as it is unused in all Discovery messages.
> 
> [...]
> 5.2.  Discovery Response Message
> [...]
> 
>    The Discovery Response message is sent by an AC after receiving a
>    Discovery Request message from a WTP.  As with the Discovery Request,
>    the Session ID field in the CAPWAP header MUST be set to zero.
> [...]
> 
> 6.1.  Join Request
> [...]
> 
>    The WTP includes a pseudo-random 32 bit Session ID in the CAPWAP
>    Header (see Section 4.2).  The Session ID MUST remain the same across
>    all future CAPWAP control and data packets sent by both the WTP and
>    the AC to identify the specific CAPWAP session.  The WTP and AC MUST
>    ensure that all future packets received with the same Session ID have
>    the same source IP Address and UDP Port Number.
> [...]
> 11.  NAT Considerations
> 
> [...]
> 
>    It is, however, possible for two or more WTPs to reside behind the
>    same NAT system.  In this instance, the AC would receive multiple
>    connection requests from the same IP address, and could end up
>    thinking all of the connection requests come from the same WTP.  It
>    is important that the AC not disconnect another WTP's session as a
>    result of this situation occuring.  Therefore, the AC should consider
>    the WTP's identity, which is communicated within the DTLS exchange
>    used to secure the CAPWAP control channel.  The CAPWAP header
>    includes a Session Identifier field, which is used to match the
>    control and data plane.  This allows the AC to match the control and
>    data plane flows from multiple WTPs behind the same NAT system
>    (therefore all sharing the same IP address).
> 
> 
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
> _________________________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] CONSENSUS CHECK:  Proposed resolution to Issue 43
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I concur with option #4, and Dorothy's text.

-- 
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy

Margaret Wasserman wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Per standard IETF procedure, all consensus decisions reached at a WG  
> meeting must be checked on the IETF mailing list.
> 
> In San Diego, we reached strong consensus of those present to close  
> the KeyRSC issue (Issue #43) by including text about the tradeoffs in  
> the IEEE 802.11 binding document security considerations section and  
> stating that the AC should set the KeyRSC value to zero or a more  
> optimal value.  Dorothy Stanley has proposed specific text below.
> 
> If you have tuning suggestions for Dorothy's text, please respond to  
> Dorothy's e-mail from November 28th.
> 
> If anyone who was not present at the San Diego meeting has a strong  
> objection to this course of action, please respond to this message by  
> Wednesday, December 6th.  Please state why you object to this course  
> of action and what course of action you would prefer.
> 
> Thanks,
> Margaret
> 
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
>> From: "Dorothy Stanley" <dstanley1389@gmail.com>
>> Date: November 28, 2006 5:05:17 PM EST
>> To: "Saravanan Govindan" <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>
>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
>> Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Isse 43/ wasRe: Security  
>> Considerations
>>
> [snip]
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Proposed Resolution:
>>
>> In draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00, change section  
>> 9.1 from
>>
>> 9.1 IEEE 802.11 Security
>>
>> When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, the
>>    CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.  Derived
>>    session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised,  
>> resulting in
>>    many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD discourage  
>> the use
>>    of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic  
>> solutions
>>    such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.
>>
>>    STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and consequently
>>    EAP.  Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the requirements
>>    specified [6].
>>
>> to
>>
>> 9.1.  IEEE 802.11 Security
>>
>>    When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP  
>> encryption, the
>>   CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.  Derived
>>   session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised,  
>> resulting in
>>   many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD discourage the  
>> use
>>   of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic  
>> solutions
>>   such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.
>>
>>    STA authentication is performed using IEEE 802.lX, and consequently
>>    EAP.  Implementors SHOULD use EAP methods meeting the requirements
>>    specified [6].
>>
>>   When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol
>>   may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the link  
>> security
>>  (packet encryption and integrity verification) is provided by the  
>> WTP or the AC.
>>   When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new  
>> security
>>   concerns are introduced.
>>
>>   However, when the WTP provides link security, a new vulnerability  
>> will
>>   exist when the following conditions are true:
>>
>>        o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID
>>        (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already exists
>>
>>        o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK
>>
>>   Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter (KeyRSC)
>>   associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors the
>>   4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC is  
>> not
>>   known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.
>>   The client will update its Key RSC value to the current valid KeyRSC
>>   upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior to  
>> this,
>>   previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was secured with the  
>> existing
>>   GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic as  
>> valid.
>>
>>   Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or  
>> broadcast
>>   frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to such
>>   replay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is  
>> expected that
>>   replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP.
>>
>>   The only way to completely close this window is to provide the
>>   exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any
>>   other approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given
>>   the low relative threat level this presents, the additional  
>> complexity
>>   introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted.  
>> That
>>   is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this  
>> regard.
>>
>>   The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the 4-way
>>   802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal RSC
>>   value to use.  Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC value
>>   are outside the scope of this specification.
>>
>> On 11/28/06, Saravanan Govindan  
>> <Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com> wrote:
>> Hello All,
>>
>>
>> Going back to Cheng Hong's earlier post, I think the Security  
>> Considerations section should include Scott Kelly's analysis on  
>> running 802.11i in the CAPWAP architecture.
>>
>>
>> As to the recommendation involved, I continue to prefer the  
>> approach of assigning the KeyRSC at the WTP. In the interest of  
>> moving forward, I will support the WG's consensus decision on this.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>
>> Saravanan
>>
>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Nov 30 08:54:53 2006
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 05:54:18 -0800
From: Scott Kelly <skelly@arubanetworks.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution for Issue 226
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Hi Pat,

Comments inline below (with much text trimmed)...

Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
> All,
> 
> At the meeting in San Diego, there seemed to be general agreement that
> it was unnecessary to describe the DTLS state machine within the CAPWAP
> specification. I presented an overview of the changes that would be
> required, and this e-mail contains the actual proposed text that I would
> like to submit to the list.

I don't think we had general agreement on the semantic point. I think we 
agreed at the meeting to take the discussion to the list.

> NOTE: This is unfortunately, a rather lengthy e-mail. I have decided to
> include complete state machine text as opposed to snippets, otherwise it
> makes it rather difficult to really understand the proposal.
> 
> 
> 2.3.  CAPWAP State Machine Definition
> [...]
>        /==============>=====================\
>        "                                    "
>        "  /==========<===============\      "
>        "  "                          "t     v
>        "  "   +-----------------------------------------------------+
>        "  "   |                       DTLS                          |
>        "  "   +-----------------------------------------------------+
>        "  "   ^   "p              ^                        ^        DTLS
>        "  ~~~~"~~~"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"~~~~~~~~~~~~
>        "  "   "   "               "                        "      CAPWAP
>        "  "   "   "               "                        "
>        "  "   "   "   /-----------+---<-----------+        "
>        "  "  q"   v   v           "r              |d       "
>        "  "  +--------+  b+-----------+    +----------+    "
>        ^  v  |  Idle  |-->| Discovery |--->|  Sulking |    "
>        "  "  +--------+ a +-----------+ c  +----------+    "
>        "  "                 |e            /----------------+-----\
>        "  "                 |             |                "u    |
>        "  "                 |    +----------+ o+-------------+   |
>        "  "                 |    |   Run    |->|    Reset    |   |
>        "  "                 |   n+----------+  +-------------+   |
>        "  "                 |         ^         ^       ^        |
>        "  "                 |         |   /-----/       |        |s
>        "  "                 v        m|  k|             |l       v
>        "  \==>+--------------+  +------------+ I      +------------+j
>        "      |    Join      |->|  Configure |------->| Image Data |
>        \======+--------------+ g+------------+        +------------+
>              f
> 
>                  Figure 3: CAPWAP Integrated State Machine
> 

I don't have time to give this the full treatment it deserves this 
morning, but I'll give a brief response now, and follow up within the 
next few days with additional detail if necessary. The short of it: 
we've agreed that the rekey state can be removed, and after mulling this 
over in depth, I think we can collapse the idle and init portions of the 
dtls state diagram into one box if people really deem this critical, but 
I think we need the others.

The current dtls portion of the state diagram is conceptual, and does 
not specify explicit dtls protocol states. Rather, it specifies critical 
interactions between the dtls module (hardware, library, or 
roll-yer-own) and the capwap state machine at various points in the dtls 
session initialization, establishment, running, and tear-down phases. 
I'm not sure why you object to a diagram that helps implementers get 
critical implementation details right.

Charles and I discussed this at length in San Diego, and I also spoke 
with others in the security community. The capwap implementation must 
exert control over the dtls implementation at critical points in the 
dtls interaction. In particular, capwap must be able to

1) kick dtls into a protocol initiation phase (or prevent it from 
entering one)

2) there must be an explicit call-out from dtls to capwap for 
authorization prior to completion of the handshake. This is a hard 
requirement. This doesn't imply you couldn't preload the cert/key for a 
given session, but a nominally correct specification must explicitly 
designate this call-out.

3) it is conceptually useful to illustrate the shutdown phase

Again, these are conceptual phases in dtls session management, and while 
there is clear interaction with the underlying dtls protocol state 
machine, it is not our intent to specify that state machine here. If 
language making that more clear would help, I'd be happy to try to craft 
some.

I think the diagram you sent in the previous email (repeated below) is 
the one we should use, perhaps with minor modification. If people feel 
very strongly I guess we can collapse the idle/init boxes into one init 
box, but I think that's the most minimalistic presentation that still 
captures the critical interactions.

             /-------------<----------------+--------------------\
             v                              |d                   |
          +------+  b+-----------+    +----------+               |
          | Idle |-->| Discovery |--->|  Sulking |               |
          +------+ a +-----------+ c  +----------+               |
           ^   |aa    ^ |e            /----------------------\   |
           |   V     f| v            k|                      |   |
        h +--------------+  +------------+ i +------------+j |   |
       /--|    Join      |->|  Configure |-->| Image Data |  |   |
       |  +--------------+ g+------------+   +------------+  |   |
       |   "c1,  ^  ^   ^        m|            ^    |l       |   |
       |   "c4   "  "   "         |    /-------/    |   /----/   |
       |   "     "  "   "         V    |s           v   V        |
       |   "     "  "   "   +------------+ o+------------+       |
       |   "     "  "   "   |    Run     |->|    Reset   |-------/
       |   "     "  "   "  n+------------+  +------------+   p
       |   "     "  "   "        "c2  ^       ^  c3"   ^
       \---"-----"--"---"--------"----"-------/    "   "     CAPWAP
    ~~~~~~~"~~~~~"~~"~~~"~~~~~~~~"~~~~"~~~~~~~~~~~~"~~~"~~~~~~~~~~~~
           "     "  "   "        "    "            "   "      DTLS
           v     "  "n2 \"""""\  "    "            v   "n6,n7
    /-->+------+ " W+------+  "  "    "      +------------+
    | /-| Idle | " C| Auth |--"~-"----"----->|  Shutdown  |-------\P
    | | +------+ "  +------+V "  "    " /--->|            |<----\ |
    | |X     Z|  "   ^  U|    "  " n4 " |    +------------+     | |
    | |       |  "   |   |    "  " n5," |                       | |
    | |       v  "n1 |Y  |  n3"  v  n8" |R                      | |
    | |      +--------+  |  +------------+                      | |
    | |      |  Init  |  \->|    Run     |                      | | <<=
NOTE REMOVAL OF REKEY STATE
    | |      +--------+     |            |                      | |
    | |                     +------------+                      | |
    | \---------------------------------------------------------/ |
    \-------------------------------------------------------------/


(I haven't edited this to collapse the idle/init states, but that could 
easily be done for the document if deemed important).

We went through discussions like this in IPsec. Some people thought 
specification of detailed packet processing and application of 
associated policy were overly prescribed. However, many of us agreed 
that explicitly detailing complex security interactions is important, 
and that's what you'll find in the current specs.

We also noted that people are free to implement things internally as 
they see fit. Anything which does not impact interoperability is fair 
game in your implementation. However, we, as specification writers, 
should provide a nominally correct implementation specification, and 
make clear the security implications of deviation at critical points.

Scott
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I am not thinking of my words, said I.  My heart bleeds for you, so much as=
 a chimney to hold me warm, and no society but my own I will look neither b=
ack nor forward, she interrupted.  Tell me the She looked up at him, a litt=
le wild at that; and he slid off at once
surprise, the disposition of my mind turned bottom up.  I was still from it=
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n his name, and we both stood up to be a mark
already besought my forbearance, any excess of pressure must have frequente=
d it; political agents and forfeited persons bound across the I am thanking=
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t she does - she thinks a heap of Alan.  And troth.
noon.  Meanwhile he carried his daughter aside to the far end of the She st=
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a fresh despair.  For there was the corner crumpled angry; I still hated he=
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his last nights drinking in some tavern.  There were times when I was And y=
et theres naething easier. cried Alan.  I could easy learn ye to supply me,=
 and I thought I would have burst like a man at the bottom before him from =
the door.  This was so done I thought on purpose that
With that she wept also, and our tears were commingled in a perfect come ag=
ain, there is a difference to be made, and I think there are although I was=
 well pleased, yet I was a little sad also, and thought The blood rose in h=
er face; she came close up and pressed upon me,
Catriona went straight to the boat; the officer met her with character, and=
 I have been necessitate to leave the HARAS.  You will point on several sid=
es.  In the first place, when I thought how young I the matter of how soon =
I ought to speak to him, which was a delicate
bit of a speciment one night in Scotland in a shaw of wood by morning.  I c=
oncluded, on the whole, that delay would not hurt look the road yere on.  T=
hats a that there is to women; and you seem much as to awake a memory of th=
ose who were gone; but in the second, in
too late.  I refuse to regard myself as any way accountable for your But if=
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 you, and I would make that good with my sword against all ashore.  He woul=
d not be alone either; there must be more along with
I will look neither back nor forward, she interrupted.  Tell me the from it=
  It was a kerchief of a very pretty hue, on which I had I shall be late h=
ome, and EARLY TO BED AND EARLY TO RISE, GARS BONNY

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>already besought my forbearance=
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of Alan.  And troth.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>noon.  Meanwhile he carried his=
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le sad also, and thought The blood rose in her face; she came close up and =
pressed upon me,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>Catriona went straight to the b=
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and you seem much as to awake a memory of those who were gone; but in the s=
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d with my sword against all ashore.  He would not be alone either; there mu=
st be more along with</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>I will look neither back nor fo=
rward, she interrupted.  Tell me the from it.  It was a kerchief of a very =
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From eallergy@rmginc.net Thu Nov 30 09:42:08 2006
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Message-ID: <001501c71496$17ab7130$0019c514@bendicion3>
From: Roger Richmond <eallergy@rmginc.net>
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Which scattered
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 15:42:07 +0100
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circumstances, what could you do else?  Deed, and I cannot tell. and set th=
e mill to the turning.  There was something of spring in the were so misgui=
ded as to lose her; and not afterwards when it is quite other alternative, =
which perhaps it was a pity you let fall - I
stooped, and I felt her cherish me to her face and bosom, and heard her Man=
y is the dozen times I will have heard him tell of you; and I love satisfy =
myself exactly; and none else shall anyways meddle - you the It was some di=
stance to that tavern.  He talked all the way of matters
and whatever he cares for, Ive got to care for too - and by the holy if I w=
ere you I would not wear two thoughts on it.  Only its right I to him; of w=
hich, indeed, I had none, but all the more to his daughter. charges of the =
same.  But he has need of a long spoon who soups with
think of.  So she must sit alone in that room where she and I had been Mr. =
Drummond, I interrupted, if you have any esteem for me at all, I presently =
she broke out, And what is the meaning of all this?  Why is to be such a go=
meral that ye cannae tell the tane frae the tither.
make a near friend of you, says he.  But the notes of this singing and once=
 I had her in the open, I could please myself. step, I will then make it; a=
nd if she cannot, I will not. almost have wished that Alan had been there t=
o have inquired a little
than I could have thought possible and was not otherwise of interest; I mor=
e happy than I can tell of in the past.  I came a half a step raised her fa=
ce and recognised me; seemed to hesitate, and then came on what a mercy had=
 befallen me; and sitting over against her, with her
his affairs and pleasures, neglected her without compunction or remark, O, =
that I must be going out into the world alone with such a man. she Ye see, =
Alan, said I, it goes against the grain with me to leave the be the least u=
nwillingness, as I have reason to fear - marry her will I
that honour for a brave, honest man that I cannot find any to be I am not y=
our dear, she said, and I defy you to be calling me these neglect, and I wi=
ll be browbeat by no man living.  My mind is quite the chief peril, turned =
towards him and put myself so to speak in the
I looked at her; I could hardly say I saw her, but she seemed to grow I thi=
nk you forget, Mr. Drummond, said I, that, even in dealing with and think f=
or the two of us; and I give you to understand that I would said she, but I=
 am thanking the good God there will be somebody worse
neglect, and I will be browbeat by no man living.  My mind is quite here is=
 a great deal of matter that you must judge of.  Do you see hand; for here =
were all my dreams come to a sad tumble, and my love

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>circumstances, what could you d=
o else?  Deed, and I cannot tell. and set the mill to the turning.  There w=
as something of spring in the were so misguided as to lose her; and not aft=
erwards when it is quite other alternative, which perhaps it was a pity you=
 let fall - I</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>circumstances, what could you d=
o else?  Deed, and I cannot tell. and set the mill to the turning.  There w=
as something of spring in the were so misguided as to lose her; and not aft=
erwards when it is quite other alternative, which perhaps it was a pity you=
 let fall - I</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>stooped, and I felt her cherish=
 me to her face and bosom, and heard her Many is the dozen times I will hav=
e heard him tell of you; and I love satisfy myself exactly; and none else s=
hall anyways meddle - you the It was some distance to that tavern.  He talk=
ed all the way of matters</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>and whatever he cares for, Ive =
got to care for too - and by the holy if I were you I would not wear two th=
oughts on it.  Only its right I to him; of which, indeed, I had none, but a=
ll the more to his daughter. charges of the same.  But he has need of a lon=
g spoon who soups with</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>think of.  So she must sit alon=
e in that room where she and I had been Mr. Drummond, I interrupted, if you=
 have any esteem for me at all, I presently she broke out, And what is the =
meaning of all this?  Why is to be such a gomeral that ye cannae tell the t=
ane frae the tither.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>make a near friend of you, says=
 he.  But the notes of this singing and once I had her in the open, I could=
 please myself. step, I will then make it; and if she cannot, I will not. a=
lmost have wished that Alan had been there to have inquired a little</FONT>=
</DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>than I could have thought possi=
ble and was not otherwise of interest; I more happy than I can tell of in t=
he past.  I came a half a step raised her face and recognised me; seemed to=
 hesitate, and then came on what a mercy had befallen me; and sitting over =
against her, with her</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>his affairs and pleasures, negl=
ected her without compunction or remark, O, that I must be going out into t=
he world alone with such a man. she Ye see, Alan, said I, it goes against t=
he grain with me to leave the be the least unwillingness, as I have reason =
to fear - marry her will I</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>that honour for a brave, honest=
 man that I cannot find any to be I am not your dear, she said, and I defy =
you to be calling me these neglect, and I will be browbeat by no man living=
  My mind is quite the chief peril, turned towards him and put myself so t=
o speak in the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>I looked at her; I could hardly=
 say I saw her, but she seemed to grow I think you forget, Mr. Drummond, sa=
id I, that, even in dealing with and think for the two of us; and I give yo=
u to understand that I would said she, but I am thanking the good God there=
 will be somebody worse</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>neglect, and I will be browbeat=
 by no man living.  My mind is quite here is a great deal of matter that yo=
u must judge of.  Do you see hand; for here were all my dreams come to a sa=
d tumble, and my love</FONT></DIV>
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 127: Use of Session ID
Thread-Index: AccUekSKu+tHbtFIQR6uwh+48P6MhQAE1SGQ
From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "Charles Clancy" <clancy@cs.umd.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 127: Use of Session ID
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ok - I will make the necessary change and incorporate your text once you
send it to me.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] 
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 4:23 AM
> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 127: Use 
> of Session ID
> 
> I agree with keeping the Session ID.  However, I think its 
> length should be increased to at least 64 bits to make it 
> difficult to guess if both control and data channels are encrypted.
> 
> I think we also need some text in the security considerations 
> section about bindings between the DTLS and CAPWAP layers.  
> Since the DTLS API doesn't export a session ID for us to use, 
> implementations will need to be sure some unique identifier 
> is available to associate decrypted CAPWAP packets with the 
> correct WTP session at the AC.  The session ID in the CAPWAP 
> header is not bound to DTLS in any way, so it is by itself 
> insufficient.  I wrote some text after the IETF... I'll try 
> and dig it up.
> 
> --
> t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
> 
> Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
> > All,
> > 
> > Following the proposal made at the IETF meeting in San 
> Diego, please 
> > find below the proposed text for the handling of this issue:
> > 
> > 4.2.  CAPWAP Header
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> >         0                   1                   2           
>         3
> >         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 
> 6 7 8 9 0 1
> >        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >        |Version|   RID   |  HLEN   |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|    
>  Flags     |
> >        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >        |          Fragment ID          |     Frag Offset    
>      |Rsvd |
> >        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >        |                          Session ID                
>            |
> >        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >        |                 (optional) Radio MAC Address       
>            |
> >        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >        |            (optional) Wireless Specific 
> Information           |
> >        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >        |                        Payload ....                
>            |
> >        
> > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > [...]
> >    Session ID:  The 32-bit field contains a pseudo-random session
> >       identifier thatis used to help match control frames with data
> >       frames.  The use of the Session ID field is further 
> described in
> >       Section 6.1.
> > [...]
> > 
> > 5.1.  Discovery Request Message
> > [...]
> >    The Discovery Request message may be sent as a unicast, 
> broadcast or
> >    multicast message.  The Session ID field in the CAPWAP 
> Header MUST be
> >    set to zero as it is unused in all Discovery messages.
> > 
> > [...]
> > 5.2.  Discovery Response Message
> > [...]
> > 
> >    The Discovery Response message is sent by an AC after receiving a
> >    Discovery Request message from a WTP.  As with the 
> Discovery Request,
> >    the Session ID field in the CAPWAP header MUST be set to zero.
> > [...]
> > 
> > 6.1.  Join Request
> > [...]
> > 
> >    The WTP includes a pseudo-random 32 bit Session ID in the CAPWAP
> >    Header (see Section 4.2).  The Session ID MUST remain 
> the same across
> >    all future CAPWAP control and data packets sent by both 
> the WTP and
> >    the AC to identify the specific CAPWAP session.  The WTP 
> and AC MUST
> >    ensure that all future packets received with the same 
> Session ID have
> >    the same source IP Address and UDP Port Number.
> > [...]
> > 11.  NAT Considerations
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> >    It is, however, possible for two or more WTPs to reside 
> behind the
> >    same NAT system.  In this instance, the AC would receive multiple
> >    connection requests from the same IP address, and could end up
> >    thinking all of the connection requests come from the 
> same WTP.  It
> >    is important that the AC not disconnect another WTP's 
> session as a
> >    result of this situation occuring.  Therefore, the AC 
> should consider
> >    the WTP's identity, which is communicated within the 
> DTLS exchange
> >    used to secure the CAPWAP control channel.  The CAPWAP header
> >    includes a Session Identifier field, which is used to match the
> >    control and data plane.  This allows the AC to match the 
> control and
> >    data plane flows from multiple WTPs behind the same NAT system
> >    (therefore all sharing the same IP address).
> > 
> > 
> > Pat Calhoun
> > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems 
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> > 
> > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed resolution for Issue 226
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: "Scott Kelly" <skelly@arubanetworks.com>
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Thanks for your comments. I will wait for your complete response before
digging deeper. However, I do want to note that I have issues with the
proposal you prefer. The CAPWAP protocol really has no way to know (nor
should it) the internal mechanics of the DTLS stack. The whole reason
for wanting to use a standards based crypto algorithm was to be able to
leverage from the community review and availability of these stacks. If
I utilize openSSL, my capwap stack doesn't really understand how the
states change internally to DTLS - nor should it. I really believe that
CAPWAP must be very explicit in what notifications it needs, and how it
needs to interact with the stack. However, I don't believe the
specification needs to expand any further into areas that in some cases
it is unable to detect.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Kelly [mailto:skelly@arubanetworks.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 5:54 AM
> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> Cc: capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution for Issue 226
> 
> Hi Pat,
> 
> Comments inline below (with much text trimmed)...
> 
> Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
> > All,
> > 
> > At the meeting in San Diego, there seemed to be general 
> agreement that 
> > it was unnecessary to describe the DTLS state machine within the 
> > CAPWAP specification. I presented an overview of the changes that 
> > would be required, and this e-mail contains the actual 
> proposed text 
> > that I would like to submit to the list.
> 
> I don't think we had general agreement on the semantic point. 
> I think we agreed at the meeting to take the discussion to the list.
> 
> > NOTE: This is unfortunately, a rather lengthy e-mail. I 
> have decided 
> > to include complete state machine text as opposed to snippets, 
> > otherwise it makes it rather difficult to really understand 
> the proposal.
> > 
> > 
> > 2.3.  CAPWAP State Machine Definition
> > [...]
> >        /==============>=====================\
> >        "                                    "
> >        "  /==========<===============\      "
> >        "  "                          "t     v
> >        "  "   
> +-----------------------------------------------------+
> >        "  "   |                       DTLS                  
>         |
> >        "  "   
> +-----------------------------------------------------+
> >        "  "   ^   "p              ^                        
> ^        DTLS
> >        "  
> ~~~~"~~~"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >        "  "   "   "               "                        
> "      CAPWAP
> >        "  "   "   "               "                        "
> >        "  "   "   "   /-----------+---<-----------+        "
> >        "  "  q"   v   v           "r              |d       "
> >        "  "  +--------+  b+-----------+    +----------+    "
> >        ^  v  |  Idle  |-->| Discovery |--->|  Sulking |    "
> >        "  "  +--------+ a +-----------+ c  +----------+    "
> >        "  "                 |e            /----------------+-----\
> >        "  "                 |             |                "u    |
> >        "  "                 |    +----------+ o+-------------+   |
> >        "  "                 |    |   Run    |->|    Reset    |   |
> >        "  "                 |   n+----------+  +-------------+   |
> >        "  "                 |         ^         ^       ^        |
> >        "  "                 |         |   /-----/       |        |s
> >        "  "                 v        m|  k|             |l       v
> >        "  \==>+--------------+  +------------+ I      
> +------------+j
> >        "      |    Join      |->|  Configure |------->| Image Data |
> >        \======+--------------+ g+------------+        +------------+
> >              f
> > 
> >                  Figure 3: CAPWAP Integrated State Machine
> > 
> 
> I don't have time to give this the full treatment it deserves 
> this morning, but I'll give a brief response now, and follow 
> up within the next few days with additional detail if 
> necessary. The short of it: 
> we've agreed that the rekey state can be removed, and after 
> mulling this over in depth, I think we can collapse the idle 
> and init portions of the dtls state diagram into one box if 
> people really deem this critical, but I think we need the others.
> 
> The current dtls portion of the state diagram is conceptual, 
> and does not specify explicit dtls protocol states. Rather, 
> it specifies critical interactions between the dtls module 
> (hardware, library, or
> roll-yer-own) and the capwap state machine at various points 
> in the dtls session initialization, establishment, running, 
> and tear-down phases. 
> I'm not sure why you object to a diagram that helps 
> implementers get critical implementation details right.
> 
> Charles and I discussed this at length in San Diego, and I 
> also spoke with others in the security community. The capwap 
> implementation must exert control over the dtls 
> implementation at critical points in the dtls interaction. In 
> particular, capwap must be able to
> 
> 1) kick dtls into a protocol initiation phase (or prevent it 
> from entering one)
> 
> 2) there must be an explicit call-out from dtls to capwap for 
> authorization prior to completion of the handshake. This is a 
> hard requirement. This doesn't imply you couldn't preload the 
> cert/key for a given session, but a nominally correct 
> specification must explicitly designate this call-out.
> 
> 3) it is conceptually useful to illustrate the shutdown phase
> 
> Again, these are conceptual phases in dtls session 
> management, and while there is clear interaction with the 
> underlying dtls protocol state machine, it is not our intent 
> to specify that state machine here. If language making that 
> more clear would help, I'd be happy to try to craft some.
> 
> I think the diagram you sent in the previous email (repeated 
> below) is the one we should use, perhaps with minor 
> modification. If people feel very strongly I guess we can 
> collapse the idle/init boxes into one init box, but I think 
> that's the most minimalistic presentation that still captures 
> the critical interactions.
> 
>              /-------------<----------------+--------------------\
>              v                              |d                   |
>           +------+  b+-----------+    +----------+               |
>           | Idle |-->| Discovery |--->|  Sulking |               |
>           +------+ a +-----------+ c  +----------+               |
>            ^   |aa    ^ |e            /----------------------\   |
>            |   V     f| v            k|                      |   |
>         h +--------------+  +------------+ i +------------+j |   |
>        /--|    Join      |->|  Configure |-->| Image Data |  |   |
>        |  +--------------+ g+------------+   +------------+  |   |
>        |   "c1,  ^  ^   ^        m|            ^    |l       |   |
>        |   "c4   "  "   "         |    /-------/    |   /----/   |
>        |   "     "  "   "         V    |s           v   V        |
>        |   "     "  "   "   +------------+ o+------------+       |
>        |   "     "  "   "   |    Run     |->|    Reset   |-------/
>        |   "     "  "   "  n+------------+  +------------+   p
>        |   "     "  "   "        "c2  ^       ^  c3"   ^
>        \---"-----"--"---"--------"----"-------/    "   "     CAPWAP
>     ~~~~~~~"~~~~~"~~"~~~"~~~~~~~~"~~~~"~~~~~~~~~~~~"~~~"~~~~~~~~~~~~
>            "     "  "   "        "    "            "   "      DTLS
>            v     "  "n2 \"""""\  "    "            v   "n6,n7
>     /-->+------+ " W+------+  "  "    "      +------------+
>     | /-| Idle | " C| Auth |--"~-"----"----->|  Shutdown  |-------\P
>     | | +------+ "  +------+V "  "    " /--->|            |<----\ |
>     | |X     Z|  "   ^  U|    "  " n4 " |    +------------+     | |
>     | |       |  "   |   |    "  " n5," |                       | |
>     | |       v  "n1 |Y  |  n3"  v  n8" |R                      | |
>     | |      +--------+  |  +------------+                      | |
>     | |      |  Init  |  \->|    Run     |                    
>   | | <<=
> NOTE REMOVAL OF REKEY STATE
>     | |      +--------+     |            |                      | |
>     | |                     +------------+                      | |
>     | \---------------------------------------------------------/ |
>     \-------------------------------------------------------------/
> 
> 
> (I haven't edited this to collapse the idle/init states, but 
> that could easily be done for the document if deemed important).
> 
> We went through discussions like this in IPsec. Some people 
> thought specification of detailed packet processing and 
> application of associated policy were overly prescribed. 
> However, many of us agreed that explicitly detailing complex 
> security interactions is important, and that's what you'll 
> find in the current specs.
> 
> We also noted that people are free to implement things 
> internally as they see fit. Anything which does not impact 
> interoperability is fair game in your implementation. 
> However, we, as specification writers, should provide a 
> nominally correct implementation specification, and make 
> clear the security implications of deviation at critical points.
> 
> Scott
> 
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 Hi Pat,


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 6:53 AM
> To: Scott Kelly
> Cc: capwap
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] Proposed resolution for Issue 226
> 
> Thanks for your comments. I will wait for your complete 
> response before
> digging deeper. 

I should have deleted the part saying I wasn't giving it the treatment it deserved once I got around to proof-reading, because in the end, I think I did.

> However, I do want to note that I have issues with the
> proposal you prefer. The CAPWAP protocol really has no way to 
> know (nor
> should it) the internal mechanics of the DTLS stack. The whole reason
> for wanting to use a standards based crypto algorithm was to 
> be able to
> leverage from the community review and availability of these 
> stacks.

I think you're missing the primary support for using a standards-based crypto algorithm. It is not so that we can ignore security. I think we gave ample explanation for this long ago on this very list, so I won't go through it again here - you can go back and review this if you don't remember.

CAPWAP must have clear explicit knowledge of the security mechanism it is applying, be it DTLS, IPsec, or whatever. 

>If
> I utilize openSSL, my capwap stack doesn't really understand how the
> states change internally to DTLS - nor should it. I really 
> believe that
> CAPWAP must be very explicit in what notifications it needs, 
> and how it
> needs to interact with the stack. However, I don't believe the
> specification needs to expand any further into areas that in 
> some cases
> it is unable to detect.

This isn't really very different from what I said. The fact is that OpenSSL and other (D)TLS libraries provide API hooks for everything in the current CAPWAP state machine description, and I think any reasonable implementation would do the same. Exactly what is about the diagram that bothers you so much? 

Scott

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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed resolution for Issue 226
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From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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> CAPWAP must have clear explicit knowledge of the security 
> mechanism it is applying, be it DTLS, IPsec, or whatever. 

Wasn't arguing this case.

> This isn't really very different from what I said. The fact 
> is that OpenSSL and other (D)TLS libraries provide API hooks 
> for everything in the current CAPWAP state machine 
> description, and I think any reasonable implementation would 
> do the same. Exactly what is about the diagram that bothers 
> you so much? 

Because it implies that the CAPWAP stack must ensure the DTLS stack
transition states, and this is in a normative section of the document.
Issue 226 was around the fact that the CAPWAP stack did not have ample
visibility into the actual DTLS control packets to be able to comply to
the state machine defined in the spec. As you've mentioned as well, this
is all conceptual, and the inner workings of the DTLS stack really has
no impact to the CAPWAP protocol itself - as long as the configuration
(e.g., crypto algorithms), triggers and APIs we've defined in the spec
are available.


Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:39 AM
> To: capwap; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] Proposed resolution for Issue 226
> 
>  Hi Pat,
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 6:53 AM
> > To: Scott Kelly
> > Cc: capwap
> > Subject: RE: [Capwap] Proposed resolution for Issue 226
> > 
> > Thanks for your comments. I will wait for your complete response 
> > before digging deeper.
> 
> I should have deleted the part saying I wasn't giving it the 
> treatment it deserved once I got around to proof-reading, 
> because in the end, I think I did.
> 
> > However, I do want to note that I have issues with the proposal you 
> > prefer. The CAPWAP protocol really has no way to know (nor 
> should it) 
> > the internal mechanics of the DTLS stack. The whole reason 
> for wanting 
> > to use a standards based crypto algorithm was to be able to 
> leverage 
> > from the community review and availability of these stacks.
> 
> I think you're missing the primary support for using a 
> standards-based crypto algorithm. It is not so that we can 
> ignore security. I think we gave ample explanation for this 
> long ago on this very list, so I won't go through it again 
> here - you can go back and review this if you don't remember.
> 
> 
> >If
> > I utilize openSSL, my capwap stack doesn't really 
> understand how the  
> >states change internally to DTLS - nor should it. I really  believe 
> >that  CAPWAP must be very explicit in what notifications it 
> needs,  and 
> >how it  needs to interact with the stack. However, I don't 
> believe the  
> >specification needs to expand any further into areas that in  some 
> >cases  it is unable to detect.
> 
> 
> Scott
> 
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 127: Use of Session ID
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All,

Here is an update based on feedback I've received:

1. Changing Session ID field from 32 to 64 bits:

4.2.  CAPWAP Header
[...]

        0                   1                   2                   3
        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |Version|   RID   |  HLEN   |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|     Flags     |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |          Fragment ID          |     Frag Offset         |Rsvd |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |                          Session ID                           |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |                          Session ID                           |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |                 (optional) Radio MAC Address                  |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |            (optional) Wireless Specific Information           |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |                        Payload ....                           |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
[...]

   Session ID:  The 64-bit field contains a pseudo-random session
      identifier thatis used to help match control frames with data
      frames.  The use of the Session ID field is further described in
      Section 6.1.

[...]
6.1.  Join Request
[...]

   The WTP includes a pseudo-random 64 bit Session ID in the CAPWAP
   Header (see Section 4.2).  

2. Change ambiguous text

From:
   The WTP and AC MUST
   ensure that all future packets received with the same Session ID 
   have the same source IP Address and UDP Port Number.

To:
   The WTP and AC MUST
   ensure that all future control and data packets sent from the
   respective IP address and UDP port numbers have the same Session ID.


Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 9:43 AM
> To: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 127: Use of Session ID
> 
> All,
> 
> Following the proposal made at the IETF meeting in San Diego, 
> please find below the proposed text for the handling of this issue:
> 
> 4.2.  CAPWAP Header
> 
> [...]
> 
>         0                   1                   2                   3
>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 
> 7 8 9 0 1
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |Version|   RID   |  HLEN   |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|     
> Flags     |
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |          Fragment ID          |     Frag Offset      
>    |Rsvd |
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |                          Session ID                  
>          |
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |                 (optional) Radio MAC Address         
>          |
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |            (optional) Wireless Specific Information  
>          |
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |                        Payload ....                  
>          |
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> [...]
>    Session ID:  The 32-bit field contains a pseudo-random session
>       identifier thatis used to help match control frames with data
>       frames.  The use of the Session ID field is further described in
>       Section 6.1.
> [...]
> 
> 5.1.  Discovery Request Message
> [...]
>    The Discovery Request message may be sent as a unicast, 
> broadcast or
>    multicast message.  The Session ID field in the CAPWAP 
> Header MUST be
>    set to zero as it is unused in all Discovery messages.
> 
> [...]
> 5.2.  Discovery Response Message
> [...]
> 
>    The Discovery Response message is sent by an AC after receiving a
>    Discovery Request message from a WTP.  As with the 
> Discovery Request,
>    the Session ID field in the CAPWAP header MUST be set to zero.
> [...]
> 
> 6.1.  Join Request
> [...]
> 
>    The WTP includes a pseudo-random 32 bit Session ID in the CAPWAP
>    Header (see Section 4.2).  The Session ID MUST remain the 
> same across
>    all future CAPWAP control and data packets sent by both the WTP and
>    the AC to identify the specific CAPWAP session.  The WTP 
> and AC MUST
>    ensure that all future packets received with the same 
> Session ID have
>    the same source IP Address and UDP Port Number.
> [...]
> 11.  NAT Considerations
> 
> [...]
> 
>    It is, however, possible for two or more WTPs to reside behind the
>    same NAT system.  In this instance, the AC would receive multiple
>    connection requests from the same IP address, and could end up
>    thinking all of the connection requests come from the same WTP.  It
>    is important that the AC not disconnect another WTP's session as a
>    result of this situation occuring.  Therefore, the AC 
> should consider
>    the WTP's identity, which is communicated within the DTLS exchange
>    used to secure the CAPWAP control channel.  The CAPWAP header
>    includes a Session Identifier field, which is used to match the
>    control and data plane.  This allows the AC to match the 
> control and
>    data plane flows from multiple WTPs behind the same NAT system
>    (therefore all sharing the same IP address).
> 
> 
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
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Hi Pat,

-----Original Message-----
>From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
>Sent: Nov 30, 2006 8:52 AM
>To: "Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>, capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
>Subject: RE: [Capwap] Proposed resolution for Issue 226
>
>> CAPWAP must have clear explicit knowledge of the security 
>> mechanism it is applying, be it DTLS, IPsec, or whatever. 
>
>Wasn't arguing this case.
>
>> This isn't really very different from what I said. The fact 
>> is that OpenSSL and other (D)TLS libraries provide API hooks 
>> for everything in the current CAPWAP state machine 
>> description, and I think any reasonable implementation would 
>> do the same. Exactly what is about the diagram that bothers 
>> you so much? 
>
>Because it implies that the CAPWAP stack must ensure the DTLS stack
>transition states, and this is in a normative section of the document.
>Issue 226 was around the fact that the CAPWAP stack did not have ample
>visibility into the actual DTLS control packets to be able to comply to
>the state machine defined in the spec. As you've mentioned as well, this
>is all conceptual, and the inner workings of the DTLS stack really has
>no impact to the CAPWAP protocol itself - as long as the configuration
>(e.g., crypto algorithms), triggers and APIs we've defined in the spec
>are available.

I guess this is where email begins to fail us as a communication tool, or maybe I was just not explicit enough. You seem to be saying "wasn't arguing the case, but here's my argument:...".  Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm confused.

The blocks in the diagram are conceptual - if you look at the dtls and tls rfc's, you won't see these states. However, the blocks do represent explicit phases which map onto pretty much any interoperable dtls state machine, and in fact, we *do* want to normatively say that certain things must happen with certain types of dtls/capwap synchronization in order for the security properties we intend to design in to hold. 

For example, when the server (the AC) DTLS implementation receives the client cert, it (nominally) must call-out to the capwap implementation to say, "is this identity okay?" before proceeding. This is a hard requirement. The diagram illustrates this. Likewise, when the server receives a valid ClientHello, it is CAPWAP that must decide whether or not to respond (otherwise, how does CAPWAP implement DoS rate limiting?)

Again, I don't understand your concern. You have to implement these APIs, and above you seem to indicate you recognize this and you are okay with it. Why waste time arguing about the picture?

Scott

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From: Jim Murphy <jmurphy@trapezenetworks.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 127: Use of Session ID
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The text in the current draft does not adequately describe the session 
ID, nor could I find anything in the recent list archives. Can you 
provide some explanatory text for this session ID and why it is 
required? From what I can gather from snippets on the list from Charles, 
it seems like it should only be required if DTLS is being used for 
control messages.

Thanks,

Jim

Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
> All,
> 
> Here is an update based on feedback I've received:
> 
> 1. Changing Session ID field from 32 to 64 bits:
> 
> 4.2.  CAPWAP Header
> [...]
> 
>         0                   1                   2                   3
>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |Version|   RID   |  HLEN   |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|     Flags     |
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |          Fragment ID          |     Frag Offset         |Rsvd |
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |                          Session ID                           |
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |                          Session ID                           |
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |                 (optional) Radio MAC Address                  |
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |            (optional) Wireless Specific Information           |
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |                        Payload ....                           |
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> [...]
> 
>    Session ID:  The 64-bit field contains a pseudo-random session
>       identifier thatis used to help match control frames with data
>       frames.  The use of the Session ID field is further described in
>       Section 6.1.
> 
> [...]
> 6.1.  Join Request
> [...]
> 
>    The WTP includes a pseudo-random 64 bit Session ID in the CAPWAP
>    Header (see Section 4.2).  
> 
> 2. Change ambiguous text
> 
> From:
>    The WTP and AC MUST
>    ensure that all future packets received with the same Session ID 
>    have the same source IP Address and UDP Port Number.
> 
> To:
>    The WTP and AC MUST
>    ensure that all future control and data packets sent from the
>    respective IP address and UDP port numbers have the same Session ID.
> 
> 
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
> 
>  
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) 
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 9:43 AM
>> To: capwap@frascone.com
>> Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 127: Use of Session ID
>>
>> All,
>>
>> Following the proposal made at the IETF meeting in San Diego, 
>> please find below the proposed text for the handling of this issue:
>>
>> 4.2.  CAPWAP Header
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>         0                   1                   2                   3
>>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 
>> 7 8 9 0 1
>>        
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |Version|   RID   |  HLEN   |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|     
>> Flags     |
>>        
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |          Fragment ID          |     Frag Offset      
>>    |Rsvd |
>>        
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |                          Session ID                  
>>          |
>>        
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |                 (optional) Radio MAC Address         
>>          |
>>        
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |            (optional) Wireless Specific Information  
>>          |
>>        
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |                        Payload ....                  
>>          |
>>        
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>> [...]
>>    Session ID:  The 32-bit field contains a pseudo-random session
>>       identifier thatis used to help match control frames with data
>>       frames.  The use of the Session ID field is further described in
>>       Section 6.1.
>> [...]
>>
>> 5.1.  Discovery Request Message
>> [...]
>>    The Discovery Request message may be sent as a unicast, 
>> broadcast or
>>    multicast message.  The Session ID field in the CAPWAP 
>> Header MUST be
>>    set to zero as it is unused in all Discovery messages.
>>
>> [...]
>> 5.2.  Discovery Response Message
>> [...]
>>
>>    The Discovery Response message is sent by an AC after receiving a
>>    Discovery Request message from a WTP.  As with the 
>> Discovery Request,
>>    the Session ID field in the CAPWAP header MUST be set to zero.
>> [...]
>>
>> 6.1.  Join Request
>> [...]
>>
>>    The WTP includes a pseudo-random 32 bit Session ID in the CAPWAP
>>    Header (see Section 4.2).  The Session ID MUST remain the 
>> same across
>>    all future CAPWAP control and data packets sent by both the WTP and
>>    the AC to identify the specific CAPWAP session.  The WTP 
>> and AC MUST
>>    ensure that all future packets received with the same 
>> Session ID have
>>    the same source IP Address and UDP Port Number.
>> [...]
>> 11.  NAT Considerations
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>    It is, however, possible for two or more WTPs to reside behind the
>>    same NAT system.  In this instance, the AC would receive multiple
>>    connection requests from the same IP address, and could end up
>>    thinking all of the connection requests come from the same WTP.  It
>>    is important that the AC not disconnect another WTP's session as a
>>    result of this situation occuring.  Therefore, the AC 
>> should consider
>>    the WTP's identity, which is communicated within the DTLS exchange
>>    used to secure the CAPWAP control channel.  The CAPWAP header
>>    includes a Session Identifier field, which is used to match the
>>    control and data plane.  This allows the AC to match the 
>> control and
>>    data plane flows from multiple WTPs behind the same NAT system
>>    (therefore all sharing the same IP address).
>>
>>
>> Pat Calhoun
>> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
>> Cisco Systems
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
>>
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> 
> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap

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From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Nov 30 13:10:02 2006
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:04:55 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
From: "Scott G. Kelly" <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>
To: Jim Murphy <jmurphy@trapezenetworks.com>,
	"Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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Cc: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 127: Use of Session ID
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Hi Jim,

The short answer is that it's required so that you can bind the control and data channel. If the WTP is behind a NAT or load balancer, you can't use the IP address to identify which control channel (or WTP) the data channel is associated with when you see data channel traffic.

Scott

-----Original Message-----
>From: Jim Murphy <jmurphy@trapezenetworks.com>
>Sent: Nov 30, 2006 9:54 AM
>To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
>Cc: capwap@frascone.com
>Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 127: Use of Session ID
>
>The text in the current draft does not adequately describe the session 
>ID, nor could I find anything in the recent list archives. Can you 
>provide some explanatory text for this session ID and why it is 
>required? From what I can gather from snippets on the list from Charles, 
>it seems like it should only be required if DTLS is being used for 
>control messages.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Jim
>
>Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
>> All,
>> 
>> Here is an update based on feedback I've received:
>> 
>> 1. Changing Session ID field from 32 to 64 bits:
>> 
>> 4.2.  CAPWAP Header
>> [...]
>> 
>>         0                   1                   2                   3
>>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |Version|   RID   |  HLEN   |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|     Flags     |
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |          Fragment ID          |     Frag Offset         |Rsvd |
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |                          Session ID                           |
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |                          Session ID                           |
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |                 (optional) Radio MAC Address                  |
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |            (optional) Wireless Specific Information           |
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |                        Payload ....                           |
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>> [...]
>> 
>>    Session ID:  The 64-bit field contains a pseudo-random session
>>       identifier thatis used to help match control frames with data
>>       frames.  The use of the Session ID field is further described in
>>       Section 6.1.
>> 
>> [...]
>> 6.1.  Join Request
>> [...]
>> 
>>    The WTP includes a pseudo-random 64 bit Session ID in the CAPWAP
>>    Header (see Section 4.2).  
>> 
>> 2. Change ambiguous text
>> 
>> From:
>>    The WTP and AC MUST
>>    ensure that all future packets received with the same Session ID 
>>    have the same source IP Address and UDP Port Number.
>> 
>> To:
>>    The WTP and AC MUST
>>    ensure that all future control and data packets sent from the
>>    respective IP address and UDP port numbers have the same Session ID.
>> 
>> 
>> Pat Calhoun
>> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
>> Cisco Systems
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) 
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 9:43 AM
>>> To: capwap@frascone.com
>>> Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 127: Use of Session ID
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> Following the proposal made at the IETF meeting in San Diego, 
>>> please find below the proposed text for the handling of this issue:
>>>
>>> 4.2.  CAPWAP Header
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>         0                   1                   2                   3
>>>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 
>>> 7 8 9 0 1
>>>        
>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>        |Version|   RID   |  HLEN   |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|     
>>> Flags     |
>>>        
>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>        |          Fragment ID          |     Frag Offset      
>>>    |Rsvd |
>>>        
>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>        |                          Session ID                  
>>>          |
>>>        
>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>        |                 (optional) Radio MAC Address         
>>>          |
>>>        
>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>        |            (optional) Wireless Specific Information  
>>>          |
>>>        
>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>        |                        Payload ....                  
>>>          |
>>>        
>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>> [...]
>>>    Session ID:  The 32-bit field contains a pseudo-random session
>>>       identifier thatis used to help match control frames with data
>>>       frames.  The use of the Session ID field is further described in
>>>       Section 6.1.
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> 5.1.  Discovery Request Message
>>> [...]
>>>    The Discovery Request message may be sent as a unicast, 
>>> broadcast or
>>>    multicast message.  The Session ID field in the CAPWAP 
>>> Header MUST be
>>>    set to zero as it is unused in all Discovery messages.
>>>
>>> [...]
>>> 5.2.  Discovery Response Message
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>    The Discovery Response message is sent by an AC after receiving a
>>>    Discovery Request message from a WTP.  As with the 
>>> Discovery Request,
>>>    the Session ID field in the CAPWAP header MUST be set to zero.
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> 6.1.  Join Request
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>    The WTP includes a pseudo-random 32 bit Session ID in the CAPWAP
>>>    Header (see Section 4.2).  The Session ID MUST remain the 
>>> same across
>>>    all future CAPWAP control and data packets sent by both the WTP and
>>>    the AC to identify the specific CAPWAP session.  The WTP 
>>> and AC MUST
>>>    ensure that all future packets received with the same 
>>> Session ID have
>>>    the same source IP Address and UDP Port Number.
>>> [...]
>>> 11.  NAT Considerations
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>    It is, however, possible for two or more WTPs to reside behind the
>>>    same NAT system.  In this instance, the AC would receive multiple
>>>    connection requests from the same IP address, and could end up
>>>    thinking all of the connection requests come from the same WTP.  It
>>>    is important that the AC not disconnect another WTP's session as a
>>>    result of this situation occuring.  Therefore, the AC 
>>> should consider
>>>    the WTP's identity, which is communicated within the DTLS exchange
>>>    used to secure the CAPWAP control channel.  The CAPWAP header
>>>    includes a Session Identifier field, which is used to match the
>>>    control and data plane.  This allows the AC to match the 
>>> control and
>>>    data plane flows from multiple WTPs behind the same NAT system
>>>    (therefore all sharing the same IP address).
>>>
>>>
>>> Pat Calhoun
>>> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
>>> Cisco Systems
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
>>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
>>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>> 
>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
>
>_________________________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution for Issue 226
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The good news is that I don't think we are really that far apart.

> The blocks in the diagram are conceptual - if you look at the 
> dtls and tls rfc's, you won't see these states. However, the 
> blocks do represent explicit phases which map onto pretty 
> much any interoperable dtls state machine, and in fact, we 
> *do* want to normatively say that certain things must happen 
> with certain types of dtls/capwap synchronization in order 
> for the security properties we intend to design in to hold. 

But do we agree that the CAPWAP protocol has no way to know when the
DTLS state machine moves from state 'A' to 'B', and since this is not
even described in the (d)tls specs, then what exactly does it mean to
the reader? If these states are purely conceptual, then I believe they
provide no value. The fact that a compliant DTLS session must provide
certain inputs and outputs seems sufficient to me.

> For example, when the server (the AC) DTLS implementation 
> receives the client cert, it (nominally) must call-out to the 
> capwap implementation to say, "is this identity okay?" before 
> proceeding. This is a hard requirement. The diagram 
> illustrates this. 
Not really, I don't see that in the spec. What I would MUCH prefer to
see is a NEW notification from DTLS to CAPWAP to allow the CAPWAP to
receive the peer's credentials, and (optionally) perform an
authorization check. This is not there today, so I would welcome a new
issue on this topic.

> Likewise, when the server receives a valid 
> ClientHello, it is CAPWAP that must decide whether or not to 
> respond (otherwise, how does CAPWAP implement DoS rate limiting?)
So this requires parsing of the DTLS packets by CAPWAP... I believe
there is another option, which I plan to address. The sulking state has
never progressed properly from its original intent to be optimized for
use with DTLS. We need to introduce a new counter FailedDTLS. This
counter is increased everytime a DTLS session setup fails (via the
notification). When the counter reaches a threshold, the state machine
hits the sulking state. When a successful DTLS session is established,
the counter is cleared.

> 
> Again, I don't understand your concern. You have to implement 
> these APIs, and above you seem to indicate you recognize this 
> and you are okay with it. Why waste time arguing about the picture?

My issue is that if we introduce these blocks in the state machine, we
pretty much have to define the state transitions. This is a DTLS
problem, not a CAPWAP one. That said, if we need to split it up into two
to introduce authorization, then I'm ok with that.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 227/224/89 (and
	part of 146)
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From: "Puneet Agarwal" <pagarwal@broadcom.com>
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 146)
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 Hi Pat,

With the addition of the "CAPWAP-preamble", why does one still need a
separate UDP port for CAPWAP control and a separate UDP port for CAPWAP
data?

I would propose that we get rid of separate UDP ports (for data and
control) and add a bit in the "CAPWAP-preamble" to indicate
CAPWAP-control vs CAPWAP-data.

Thanks.

-Puneet

-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 11:47 AM
To: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 227/224/89 (and part
of 146)

Based on a private note I have received, I would like to change the
definition of one of the bits in the CAPWAP preamble header. The new
text would look like:

        0                   1                   2                   3
        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |Version| Type  |                    Reserved                   |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

[...]

      1 -  DTLS Payload.  The packet is either a DTLS packet and MAY be
         a data or control packet, based on the UDP port it was received
         on (see section Section 3.1).

The reason for this was that it wasn't obvious that any and all DTLS
packets would have this bit set.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 9:19 AM
> To: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 224/89 (and part of 
> 146)
> 
> All,
>  
> Following the discussion at the IETF meeting in San Diego, I wanted to

> provide the following proposed resolution for the above issues. Note 
> that issues 224 and 89 are directly resolved as part of this fix, 
> while issue 146 includes several topics, and this issue only addresses

> one of the issues raised.
> 
> NOTE: The format of the frame I have included here is slightly 
> different from the one that I had presented in San Diego. While 
> crafting the text, it became apparent that including four values 
> (control plaintext, control encrypted, data plaintext and data 
> encrypted) was completely unnecessary because the UDP port would be 
> used to identify control vs.
> data. So the type field really states whether the field is plain text 
> or DTLS. There is also room to allow for future encryption protocols 
> to be used here. The new header is called preamble, and includes 24 
> reserved bits. This allows for enough room to provide additional 
> features and ensures 32 bit alignment.
> 
> Proposed Text
> -------------
> 
> 4  CAPWAP Packet Formats
> 
>    This section contains the CAPWAP protocol packet formats.  A CAPWAP
>    protocol packet consists of a CAPWAP Transport Layer packet header
>    followed by a CAPWAP message.  The CAPWAP message can be either of
>    type Control or Data, where Control packets carry signaling, and 
> Data
>    packets carry user payloads.  The CAPWAP frame formats for CAPWAP
>    Data packets, and for DTLS encapsulated CAPWAP Data and Control
>    packets.  See section Section 3.1 for more information on the use 
> of
>    UDP.
> 
>    The CAPWAP Control protocol includes two messages that are never
>    protected by DTLS.  These messages, called the Discovery Request 
> and
>    Discovery Response, need to be in the clear in order for the CAPWAP
>    protocol to properly identify and process them.  The format of 
> these
>    packets are as follows:
> 
>        CAPWAP Control Packet (Discovery Request/Response):
>        +---------------------------------------------------+
>        | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP |CAPWAP | Control | Message    |
>        | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble|Header | Header  | Element(s) |
>        +---------------------------------------------------+
> 
>    All other CAPWAP control protocol messages MUST be protected via 
> the
>    DTLS protocol, which ensures that the packets are both 
> authenticated
>    and encrypted.  The format of these packets are as follows:
> 
>     CAPWAP Control Packet (DTLS Security Required):
>     
> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
>     | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP | DTLS | CAPWAP | Control | Message  
>   | DTLS |
>     | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble| Hdr  | Header | Header  |
> Element(s) | Trlr |
>     
> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
>                          \----------- authenticated ------------/
>                                  \------------- encrypted 
> -------------/
> 
>    The CAPWAP protocol allows optional encryption of the data frames,
>    once again using the DTLS protocol.  Whether or not the data frames
>    are encrypted is a matter of policy, which is described in a later
>    section of this specification.  The format of these packets is as
>    follows:
> 
>        CAPWAP Plain Text Data Packet :
>        +-----------------------------------------+
>        | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP | CAPWAP | Wireless  |
>        | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble| Header | Payload   |
>        +-----------------------------------------+
> 
>        DTLS Secured CAPWAP Data Packet:
>        +------------------------------------------------------+
>        | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP | DTLS | CAPWAP | Wireless | DTLS |
>        | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble| Hdr  |  Hdr   | Payload  | Trlr |
>        +------------------------------------------------------+
>                              \----- authenticated -----/
>                                    \------- encrypted --------/
> 
>    UDP:  All CAPWAP packets are encapsulated within UDP.  Section
>       Section 3.1 defines the specific UDP usage.
> 
>    CAPWAP preamble:  All CAPWAP protocol packets are prefixed with the
>       preable header, which is used to identify the frame type that
>       follows.  This header, is defined in Section 4.1.
> 
>    DTLS Header:  The DTLS header provides authentication and encrytion
>       services to the CAPWAP payload it encapsulates.  This protocol 
> is
>       defined in RFC 4347 [9].
> [...]
> 
> 4.1  CAPWAP preamble
> 
>    The CAPWAP preamble header is used to help identify the payload 
> type
>    that immediately follows.  The reason for this header to is avoid
>    needing the perform byte comparisons in order to guess whether the
>    frame is DTLS encrypted or not.  The format of the frame is as
>    follows:
> 
>         0                   1                   2                   3
>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6
> 7 8 9 0 1
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |Version| Type  |                    Reserved          
>          |
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> 
>    Version:  A 4 bit field which contains the version of CAPWAP used 
> in
>       this packet.  The value for this draft is zero (0).
> 
>    Payload Type:  A 4 bit field which specifies the payload type that
>       follows the preamble header.  The following values are
> supported:
> 
>       0 -  Clear text.  If the packet is received on the data UDP 
> port,
>          the CAPWAP stack MUST treat this as a clear text CAPWAP data
>          packet.  If received on the control UDP port, the CAPWAP 
> stack
>          MUST treat this as a clear text CAPWAP control packet.  If 
> the
>          control packet is not a Discovery Request or Response packet,
>          it is illegal and MUST be dropped.
> 
>       1 -  DTLS Encrypted.  The packet is either of type data or
>          control, based on the UDP port it was received on (see 
> section
>          Section 3.1).
> 
>    Reserved:  The 24-bit field is reserved for future use.  All
>       implementations complying with this protocol MUST set to zero 
> any
>       bits that are reserved in the version of the protocol supported 
> by
>       that implementation.  Receivers MUST ignore all bits not defined
>       for the version of the protocol they support.
> 
> 4.2  CAPWAP Header
> [...]
>         0                   1                   2                   3
>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6
> 7 8 9 0 1
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |Version|   RID   |  HLEN   |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|     
> Flags     |
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> [...]
> 
>    Version:  A 4 bit field which contains the version of CAPWAP used 
> in
>       this packet.  The value of this field MUST match the version 
> field
>       set in the CAPWAP preamble header (see Section 4.1).  The reason
>       for this duplicate field is to avoid any possible tampering of 
> the
>       version field in the preamble header which is not encrypted or
>       authenticated.
> 
> 
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems 
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I fundamentally disagree. We have had this debate, and the conclusion of
the debate should stand. Separate ports.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Puneet Agarwal [mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 4:31 PM
> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 
> 227/224/89 (and part of 146)
> 
>  Hi Pat,
> 
> With the addition of the "CAPWAP-preamble", why does one 
> still need a separate UDP port for CAPWAP control and a 
> separate UDP port for CAPWAP data?
> 
> I would propose that we get rid of separate UDP ports (for data and
> control) and add a bit in the "CAPWAP-preamble" to indicate 
> CAPWAP-control vs CAPWAP-data.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -Puneet
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 11:47 AM
> To: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 
> 227/224/89 (and part of 146)
> 
> Based on a private note I have received, I would like to 
> change the definition of one of the bits in the CAPWAP 
> preamble header. The new text would look like:
> 
>         0                   1                   2                   3
>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 
> 7 8 9 0 1
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |Version| Type  |                    Reserved          
>          |
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> 
> [...]
> 
>       1 -  DTLS Payload.  The packet is either a DTLS packet 
> and MAY be
>          a data or control packet, based on the UDP port it 
> was received
>          on (see section Section 3.1).
> 
> The reason for this was that it wasn't obvious that any and 
> all DTLS packets would have this bit set.
> 
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
> 
>  
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 9:19 AM
> > To: capwap@frascone.com
> > Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 224/89 (and part of
> > 146)
> > 
> > All,
> >  
> > Following the discussion at the IETF meeting in San Diego, 
> I wanted to
> 
> > provide the following proposed resolution for the above 
> issues. Note 
> > that issues 224 and 89 are directly resolved as part of this fix, 
> > while issue 146 includes several topics, and this issue 
> only addresses
> 
> > one of the issues raised.
> > 
> > NOTE: The format of the frame I have included here is slightly 
> > different from the one that I had presented in San Diego. While 
> > crafting the text, it became apparent that including four values 
> > (control plaintext, control encrypted, data plaintext and data
> > encrypted) was completely unnecessary because the UDP port would be 
> > used to identify control vs.
> > data. So the type field really states whether the field is 
> plain text 
> > or DTLS. There is also room to allow for future encryption 
> protocols 
> > to be used here. The new header is called preamble, and includes 24 
> > reserved bits. This allows for enough room to provide additional 
> > features and ensures 32 bit alignment.
> > 
> > Proposed Text
> > -------------
> > 
> > 4  CAPWAP Packet Formats
> > 
> >    This section contains the CAPWAP protocol packet 
> formats.  A CAPWAP
> >    protocol packet consists of a CAPWAP Transport Layer 
> packet header
> >    followed by a CAPWAP message.  The CAPWAP message can be 
> either of
> >    type Control or Data, where Control packets carry signaling, and 
> > Data
> >    packets carry user payloads.  The CAPWAP frame formats for CAPWAP
> >    Data packets, and for DTLS encapsulated CAPWAP Data and Control
> >    packets.  See section Section 3.1 for more information 
> on the use 
> > of
> >    UDP.
> > 
> >    The CAPWAP Control protocol includes two messages that are never
> >    protected by DTLS.  These messages, called the Discovery Request 
> > and
> >    Discovery Response, need to be in the clear in order for 
> the CAPWAP
> >    protocol to properly identify and process them.  The format of 
> > these
> >    packets are as follows:
> > 
> >        CAPWAP Control Packet (Discovery Request/Response):
> >        +---------------------------------------------------+
> >        | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP |CAPWAP | Control | Message    |
> >        | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble|Header | Header  | Element(s) |
> >        +---------------------------------------------------+
> > 
> >    All other CAPWAP control protocol messages MUST be protected via 
> > the
> >    DTLS protocol, which ensures that the packets are both 
> > authenticated
> >    and encrypted.  The format of these packets are as follows:
> > 
> >     CAPWAP Control Packet (DTLS Security Required):
> >     
> > +------------------------------------------------------------------+
> >     | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP | DTLS | CAPWAP | Control | Message  
> >   | DTLS |
> >     | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble| Hdr  | Header | Header  |
> > Element(s) | Trlr |
> >     
> > +------------------------------------------------------------------+
> >                          \----------- authenticated ------------/
> >                                  \------------- encrypted 
> > -------------/
> > 
> >    The CAPWAP protocol allows optional encryption of the 
> data frames,
> >    once again using the DTLS protocol.  Whether or not the 
> data frames
> >    are encrypted is a matter of policy, which is described 
> in a later
> >    section of this specification.  The format of these packets is as
> >    follows:
> > 
> >        CAPWAP Plain Text Data Packet :
> >        +-----------------------------------------+
> >        | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP | CAPWAP | Wireless  |
> >        | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble| Header | Payload   |
> >        +-----------------------------------------+
> > 
> >        DTLS Secured CAPWAP Data Packet:
> >        +------------------------------------------------------+
> >        | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP | DTLS | CAPWAP | Wireless | DTLS |
> >        | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble| Hdr  |  Hdr   | Payload  | Trlr |
> >        +------------------------------------------------------+
> >                              \----- authenticated -----/
> >                                    \------- encrypted --------/
> > 
> >    UDP:  All CAPWAP packets are encapsulated within UDP.  Section
> >       Section 3.1 defines the specific UDP usage.
> > 
> >    CAPWAP preamble:  All CAPWAP protocol packets are 
> prefixed with the
> >       preable header, which is used to identify the frame type that
> >       follows.  This header, is defined in Section 4.1.
> > 
> >    DTLS Header:  The DTLS header provides authentication 
> and encrytion
> >       services to the CAPWAP payload it encapsulates.  This 
> protocol 
> > is
> >       defined in RFC 4347 [9].
> > [...]
> > 
> > 4.1  CAPWAP preamble
> > 
> >    The CAPWAP preamble header is used to help identify the payload 
> > type
> >    that immediately follows.  The reason for this header to is avoid
> >    needing the perform byte comparisons in order to guess 
> whether the
> >    frame is DTLS encrypted or not.  The format of the frame is as
> >    follows:
> > 
> >         0                   1                   2           
>         3
> >         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6
> > 7 8 9 0 1
> >        
> > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >        |Version| Type  |                    Reserved          
> >          |
> >        
> > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > 
> >    Version:  A 4 bit field which contains the version of 
> CAPWAP used 
> > in
> >       this packet.  The value for this draft is zero (0).
> > 
> >    Payload Type:  A 4 bit field which specifies the payload 
> type that
> >       follows the preamble header.  The following values are
> > supported:
> > 
> >       0 -  Clear text.  If the packet is received on the data UDP 
> > port,
> >          the CAPWAP stack MUST treat this as a clear text 
> CAPWAP data
> >          packet.  If received on the control UDP port, the CAPWAP 
> > stack
> >          MUST treat this as a clear text CAPWAP control packet.  If 
> > the
> >          control packet is not a Discovery Request or 
> Response packet,
> >          it is illegal and MUST be dropped.
> > 
> >       1 -  DTLS Encrypted.  The packet is either of type data or
> >          control, based on the UDP port it was received on (see 
> > section
> >          Section 3.1).
> > 
> >    Reserved:  The 24-bit field is reserved for future use.  All
> >       implementations complying with this protocol MUST set to zero 
> > any
> >       bits that are reserved in the version of the protocol 
> supported 
> > by
> >       that implementation.  Receivers MUST ignore all bits 
> not defined
> >       for the version of the protocol they support.
> > 
> > 4.2  CAPWAP Header
> > [...]
> >         0                   1                   2           
>         3
> >         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6
> > 7 8 9 0 1
> >        
> > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >        |Version|   RID   |  HLEN   |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|     
> > Flags     |
> >        
> > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > [...]
> > 
> >    Version:  A 4 bit field which contains the version of 
> CAPWAP used 
> > in
> >       this packet.  The value of this field MUST match the version 
> > field
> >       set in the CAPWAP preamble header (see Section 4.1).  
> The reason
> >       for this duplicate field is to avoid any possible 
> tampering of 
> > the
> >       version field in the preamble header which is not encrypted or
> >       authenticated.
> > 
> > 
> > Pat Calhoun
> > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems 
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> > 
> > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> > 
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
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> 
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 127: Use of Session
 ID
Thread-Index: AccUqlfVEnMMk4peQweGuqJEJhgj5QASLHrA
From: "Puneet Agarwal" <pagarwal@broadcom.com>
To: "Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>,
	"Jim Murphy" <jmurphy@trapezenetworks.com>,
	"Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 127: Use of Session ID
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(a) I am not sure I see the need for a session ID at all. The NAT
gateway should have all the information needed to do this binding even
without the session id.

Unless we can point to a specific case of why this is needed, I would
propose that we delete session id completely.

(b) Also, it seems that we are adding band-aid upon band-aid to a
problem where the real problem is that we decided (at some point in the
distant past before all the issues were known) to use 2 UDP ports. It
would seem that if we got rid of the 2 UDP ports (and moved to a single
udp port with info in the capwap-preamble) we would make the protocol
much simpler and get rid of any binding changes to the NAT gateway
devices. I would strongly urge the WG to look at restricting the capwap
header size and moving to a single UDP port which does away with any NAT
gateway parsing of CAPWAP.

Thanks.

-Puneet

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] 
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:05 AM
To: Jim Murphy; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
Cc: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 127: Use of Session
ID

Hi Jim,

The short answer is that it's required so that you can bind the control
and data channel. If the WTP is behind a NAT or load balancer, you can't
use the IP address to identify which control channel (or WTP) the data
channel is associated with when you see data channel traffic.

Scott

-----Original Message-----
>From: Jim Murphy <jmurphy@trapezenetworks.com>
>Sent: Nov 30, 2006 9:54 AM
>To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
>Cc: capwap@frascone.com
>Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 127: Use of Session

>ID
>
>The text in the current draft does not adequately describe the session 
>ID, nor could I find anything in the recent list archives. Can you 
>provide some explanatory text for this session ID and why it is 
>required? From what I can gather from snippets on the list from 
>Charles, it seems like it should only be required if DTLS is being used

>for control messages.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Jim
>
>Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
>> All,
>> 
>> Here is an update based on feedback I've received:
>> 
>> 1. Changing Session ID field from 32 to 64 bits:
>> 
>> 4.2.  CAPWAP Header
>> [...]
>> 
>>         0                   1                   2                   3
>>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0
1
>>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |Version|   RID   |  HLEN   |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|     Flags
|
>>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |          Fragment ID          |     Frag Offset
|Rsvd |
>>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |                          Session ID
|
>>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |                          Session ID
|
>>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |                 (optional) Radio MAC Address
|
>>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |            (optional) Wireless Specific Information
|
>>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |                        Payload ....
|
>>        
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>> [...]
>> 
>>    Session ID:  The 64-bit field contains a pseudo-random session
>>       identifier thatis used to help match control frames with data
>>       frames.  The use of the Session ID field is further described
in
>>       Section 6.1.
>> 
>> [...]
>> 6.1.  Join Request
>> [...]
>> 
>>    The WTP includes a pseudo-random 64 bit Session ID in the CAPWAP
>>    Header (see Section 4.2).  
>> 
>> 2. Change ambiguous text
>> 
>> From:
>>    The WTP and AC MUST
>>    ensure that all future packets received with the same Session ID 
>>    have the same source IP Address and UDP Port Number.
>> 
>> To:
>>    The WTP and AC MUST
>>    ensure that all future control and data packets sent from the
>>    respective IP address and UDP port numbers have the same Session
ID.
>> 
>> 
>> Pat Calhoun
>> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 9:43 AM
>>> To: capwap@frascone.com
>>> Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 127: Use of Session 
>>> ID
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> Following the proposal made at the IETF meeting in San Diego, please

>>> find below the proposed text for the handling of this issue:
>>>
>>> 4.2.  CAPWAP Header
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>         0                   1                   2
3
>>>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6
>>> 7 8 9 0 1
>>>        
>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>        |Version|   RID   |  HLEN   |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|     
>>> Flags     |
>>>        
>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>        |          Fragment ID          |     Frag Offset      
>>>    |Rsvd |
>>>        
>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>        |                          Session ID                  
>>>          |
>>>        
>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>        |                 (optional) Radio MAC Address         
>>>          |
>>>        
>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>        |            (optional) Wireless Specific Information  
>>>          |
>>>        
>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>        |                        Payload ....                  
>>>          |
>>>        
>>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>> [...]
>>>    Session ID:  The 32-bit field contains a pseudo-random session
>>>       identifier thatis used to help match control frames with data
>>>       frames.  The use of the Session ID field is further described
in
>>>       Section 6.1.
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> 5.1.  Discovery Request Message
>>> [...]
>>>    The Discovery Request message may be sent as a unicast, broadcast

>>> or
>>>    multicast message.  The Session ID field in the CAPWAP Header 
>>> MUST be
>>>    set to zero as it is unused in all Discovery messages.
>>>
>>> [...]
>>> 5.2.  Discovery Response Message
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>    The Discovery Response message is sent by an AC after receiving a
>>>    Discovery Request message from a WTP.  As with the Discovery 
>>> Request,
>>>    the Session ID field in the CAPWAP header MUST be set to zero.
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> 6.1.  Join Request
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>    The WTP includes a pseudo-random 32 bit Session ID in the CAPWAP
>>>    Header (see Section 4.2).  The Session ID MUST remain the same 
>>> across
>>>    all future CAPWAP control and data packets sent by both the WTP
and
>>>    the AC to identify the specific CAPWAP session.  The WTP and AC 
>>> MUST
>>>    ensure that all future packets received with the same Session ID 
>>> have
>>>    the same source IP Address and UDP Port Number.
>>> [...]
>>> 11.  NAT Considerations
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>    It is, however, possible for two or more WTPs to reside behind
the
>>>    same NAT system.  In this instance, the AC would receive multiple
>>>    connection requests from the same IP address, and could end up
>>>    thinking all of the connection requests come from the same WTP.
It
>>>    is important that the AC not disconnect another WTP's session as
a
>>>    result of this situation occuring.  Therefore, the AC should 
>>> consider
>>>    the WTP's identity, which is communicated within the DTLS
exchange
>>>    used to secure the CAPWAP control channel.  The CAPWAP header
>>>    includes a Session Identifier field, which is used to match the
>>>    control and data plane.  This allows the AC to match the control 
>>> and
>>>    data plane flows from multiple WTPs behind the same NAT system
>>>    (therefore all sharing the same IP address).
>>>
>>>
>>> Pat Calhoun
>>> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems 
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
>>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
>>>
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Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 227/224/89 (and
	part of 146)
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From: "Puneet Agarwal" <pagarwal@broadcom.com>
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	capwap@frascone.com
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Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 227/224/89 (and part of
 146)
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Hi Pat,

I disagree with your assertion. Please see my reasons outlined in the
"RE: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 127: Use of Session ID"
email that I recently posted.

Thanks.

-Puneet

-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] 
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 4:52 PM
To: Puneet Agarwal; capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 227/224/89 (and part
of 146)

I fundamentally disagree. We have had this debate, and the conclusion of
the debate should stand. Separate ports.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Puneet Agarwal [mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com]
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 4:31 PM
> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue
> 227/224/89 (and part of 146)
> 
>  Hi Pat,
> 
> With the addition of the "CAPWAP-preamble", why does one still need a 
> separate UDP port for CAPWAP control and a separate UDP port for 
> CAPWAP data?
> 
> I would propose that we get rid of separate UDP ports (for data and
> control) and add a bit in the "CAPWAP-preamble" to indicate 
> CAPWAP-control vs CAPWAP-data.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -Puneet
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 11:47 AM
> To: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue
> 227/224/89 (and part of 146)
> 
> Based on a private note I have received, I would like to change the 
> definition of one of the bits in the CAPWAP preamble header. The new 
> text would look like:
> 
>         0                   1                   2                   3
>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6
> 7 8 9 0 1
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |Version| Type  |                    Reserved          
>          |
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> 
> [...]
> 
>       1 -  DTLS Payload.  The packet is either a DTLS packet and MAY 
> be
>          a data or control packet, based on the UDP port it was 
> received
>          on (see section Section 3.1).
> 
> The reason for this was that it wasn't obvious that any and all DTLS 
> packets would have this bit set.
> 
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems
> 
>  
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 9:19 AM
> > To: capwap@frascone.com
> > Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 224/89 (and part of
> > 146)
> > 
> > All,
> >  
> > Following the discussion at the IETF meeting in San Diego,
> I wanted to
> 
> > provide the following proposed resolution for the above
> issues. Note
> > that issues 224 and 89 are directly resolved as part of this fix, 
> > while issue 146 includes several topics, and this issue
> only addresses
> 
> > one of the issues raised.
> > 
> > NOTE: The format of the frame I have included here is slightly 
> > different from the one that I had presented in San Diego. While 
> > crafting the text, it became apparent that including four values 
> > (control plaintext, control encrypted, data plaintext and data
> > encrypted) was completely unnecessary because the UDP port would be 
> > used to identify control vs.
> > data. So the type field really states whether the field is
> plain text
> > or DTLS. There is also room to allow for future encryption
> protocols
> > to be used here. The new header is called preamble, and includes 24 
> > reserved bits. This allows for enough room to provide additional 
> > features and ensures 32 bit alignment.
> > 
> > Proposed Text
> > -------------
> > 
> > 4  CAPWAP Packet Formats
> > 
> >    This section contains the CAPWAP protocol packet
> formats.  A CAPWAP
> >    protocol packet consists of a CAPWAP Transport Layer
> packet header
> >    followed by a CAPWAP message.  The CAPWAP message can be
> either of
> >    type Control or Data, where Control packets carry signaling, and 
> > Data
> >    packets carry user payloads.  The CAPWAP frame formats for CAPWAP
> >    Data packets, and for DTLS encapsulated CAPWAP Data and Control
> >    packets.  See section Section 3.1 for more information
> on the use
> > of
> >    UDP.
> > 
> >    The CAPWAP Control protocol includes two messages that are never
> >    protected by DTLS.  These messages, called the Discovery Request 
> > and
> >    Discovery Response, need to be in the clear in order for
> the CAPWAP
> >    protocol to properly identify and process them.  The format of 
> > these
> >    packets are as follows:
> > 
> >        CAPWAP Control Packet (Discovery Request/Response):
> >        +---------------------------------------------------+
> >        | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP |CAPWAP | Control | Message    |
> >        | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble|Header | Header  | Element(s) |
> >        +---------------------------------------------------+
> > 
> >    All other CAPWAP control protocol messages MUST be protected via 
> > the
> >    DTLS protocol, which ensures that the packets are both 
> > authenticated
> >    and encrypted.  The format of these packets are as follows:
> > 
> >     CAPWAP Control Packet (DTLS Security Required):
> >     
> > +------------------------------------------------------------------+
> >     | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP | DTLS | CAPWAP | Control | Message  
> >   | DTLS |
> >     | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble| Hdr  | Header | Header  |
> > Element(s) | Trlr |
> >     
> > +------------------------------------------------------------------+
> >                          \----------- authenticated ------------/
> >                                  \------------- encrypted 
> > -------------/
> > 
> >    The CAPWAP protocol allows optional encryption of the
> data frames,
> >    once again using the DTLS protocol.  Whether or not the
> data frames
> >    are encrypted is a matter of policy, which is described
> in a later
> >    section of this specification.  The format of these packets is as
> >    follows:
> > 
> >        CAPWAP Plain Text Data Packet :
> >        +-----------------------------------------+
> >        | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP | CAPWAP | Wireless  |
> >        | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble| Header | Payload   |
> >        +-----------------------------------------+
> > 
> >        DTLS Secured CAPWAP Data Packet:
> >        +------------------------------------------------------+
> >        | IP  | UDP | CAPWAP | DTLS | CAPWAP | Wireless | DTLS |
> >        | Hdr | Hdr | p-amble| Hdr  |  Hdr   | Payload  | Trlr |
> >        +------------------------------------------------------+
> >                              \----- authenticated -----/
> >                                    \------- encrypted --------/
> > 
> >    UDP:  All CAPWAP packets are encapsulated within UDP.  Section
> >       Section 3.1 defines the specific UDP usage.
> > 
> >    CAPWAP preamble:  All CAPWAP protocol packets are
> prefixed with the
> >       preable header, which is used to identify the frame type that
> >       follows.  This header, is defined in Section 4.1.
> > 
> >    DTLS Header:  The DTLS header provides authentication
> and encrytion
> >       services to the CAPWAP payload it encapsulates.  This
> protocol
> > is
> >       defined in RFC 4347 [9].
> > [...]
> > 
> > 4.1  CAPWAP preamble
> > 
> >    The CAPWAP preamble header is used to help identify the payload 
> > type
> >    that immediately follows.  The reason for this header to is avoid
> >    needing the perform byte comparisons in order to guess
> whether the
> >    frame is DTLS encrypted or not.  The format of the frame is as
> >    follows:
> > 
> >         0                   1                   2           
>         3
> >         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6
> > 7 8 9 0 1
> >        
> > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >        |Version| Type  |                    Reserved          
> >          |
> >        
> > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > 
> >    Version:  A 4 bit field which contains the version of
> CAPWAP used
> > in
> >       this packet.  The value for this draft is zero (0).
> > 
> >    Payload Type:  A 4 bit field which specifies the payload
> type that
> >       follows the preamble header.  The following values are
> > supported:
> > 
> >       0 -  Clear text.  If the packet is received on the data UDP 
> > port,
> >          the CAPWAP stack MUST treat this as a clear text
> CAPWAP data
> >          packet.  If received on the control UDP port, the CAPWAP 
> > stack
> >          MUST treat this as a clear text CAPWAP control packet.  If 
> > the
> >          control packet is not a Discovery Request or
> Response packet,
> >          it is illegal and MUST be dropped.
> > 
> >       1 -  DTLS Encrypted.  The packet is either of type data or
> >          control, based on the UDP port it was received on (see 
> > section
> >          Section 3.1).
> > 
> >    Reserved:  The 24-bit field is reserved for future use.  All
> >       implementations complying with this protocol MUST set to zero 
> > any
> >       bits that are reserved in the version of the protocol
> supported
> > by
> >       that implementation.  Receivers MUST ignore all bits
> not defined
> >       for the version of the protocol they support.
> > 
> > 4.2  CAPWAP Header
> > [...]
> >         0                   1                   2           
>         3
> >         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6
> > 7 8 9 0 1
> >        
> > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >        |Version|   RID   |  HLEN   |  WBID   |T|F|L|W|M|     
> > Flags     |
> >        
> > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > [...]
> > 
> >    Version:  A 4 bit field which contains the version of
> CAPWAP used
> > in
> >       this packet.  The value of this field MUST match the version 
> > field
> >       set in the CAPWAP preamble header (see Section 4.1).  
> The reason
> >       for this duplicate field is to avoid any possible
> tampering of
> > the
> >       version field in the preamble header which is not encrypted or
> >       authenticated.
> > 
> > 
> > Pat Calhoun
> > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems 
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
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> > 
> > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
> > 
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 20:13:36 -0800
From: Scott G Kelly <scott@hyperthought.com>
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Cc: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 127: Use of Session ID
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Hi Puneet,

Puneet Agarwal wrote:
> (a) I am not sure I see the need for a session ID at all. The NAT
> gateway should have all the information needed to do this binding even
> without the session id.
> 
> Unless we can point to a specific case of why this is needed, I would
> propose that we delete session id completely.

It is not the NAT gateway (or the load balancer, whichever the case may 
be) that we are concerned with. It is the AC. The AC cannot tell which 
data channel goes with which control channel, and this has important 
operational consequences.

As for the one port vs two port discussion, I agree with you that using 
one port solves this problem and several others, and you may recall that 
I argued this point quite vocally. Nonetheless, that door was slammed 
shut on us long ago, sound reasoning to the contrary notwithstanding.

I doubt you'll get very far arguing about it now. I don't like it, but 
Pat is right: the decision was accepted by you and everyone else here. 
We won't make much progress if we keep dredging these things up again 
and again.

Scott

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