From nobody Tue Feb 12 12:15:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34C8912DF71 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 12:15:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.881 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.881 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.018, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tm9yTg5dtWC9 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 12:15:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-f53.google.com (mail-ed1-f53.google.com [209.85.208.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 03C2512785F for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 12:15:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-f53.google.com with SMTP id x7so3318636eds.8 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 12:15:42 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ATaQAOMMXWi5h0cPMwD7+QtQpT02G0QxD8EKPg7rBTw=; b=qXwbgCjEm5EUyA8Vehu4ry6/Kh+tRzS8ftY7z5NJkZ+dqueLx4Xc5mti/2VJpTz4Ya ZHlA1i+gBFl/Lbhf9hgLCnTFXvXD8PeEHS9gdP0VYFLAJ4VeVUlm+K1DbLCu36hv5s8Z OlHIHThFdZ/q6zzGyoVwwZsf8NHbcUM5RDB2K1Ylpc4zC+bINyuB6apk/X+xZp+3AlL1 pNIjzvyuD3vxHWOeZiTgQyQDf9L92Naov184q700Koxw/LTMkquSzdUqmvJ8gjhZISpA +cjgXK+nrnMQMW15T/kCQDa2m+QMbNACuz0EfWKVtYvqPW3o7eQ9oYEntxX0LVqlG+Dx zwBg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuYR8bQ1fkf1Qj3Xco4vfbkDWbI0qhFyATjT84hj/Qg1KcyYZ/ei ipL/gRApPbP9CahWrmJa2Ppg9/bTOKkzNrVGJzE+g/5J X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3Ia71Xgjx0W/goMrnDJYdm3XRalPnJ7YdDBMuRTLZPcRRX/txMApObClIcerhbPJMJz1fqCCHiNf/Mem+F9xfyM= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:4988:: with SMTP id p8mr2548423eju.75.1550002541101; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 12:15:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Barry Leiba Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 15:15:30 -0500 Message-ID: To: cbor@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Reminder: CBOR Virtual Meeting: 2019-02-13 X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 20:15:45 -0000 Reminder: The next CBOR teleconference is Wednesday, 13 February; see below. Webex: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=mf31b8e63cfd354ca8461b998aa30c4ba Barry On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 12:29 PM IESG Secretary wrote: > The Concise Binary Object Representation Maintenance and Extensions > (cbor) Working Group will hold a virtual interim meeting on 2019-02-13 > from 18:00 to 19:00 UTC. > > The CBOR working group will have conference calls running every two > weeks through the end of March (until IETF 104 in Prague). > Day: every other Wednesday beginning on 19 December > Dates: 19 Dec; 2, 16, 30 Jan; 13, 27 Feb; 13 March > Time: 18:00 to 19:00 UT > >Agenda: > (No agenda submitted) > > Information about remote participation: > We will use the working group WebEx for the calls. The IETF WebEx > account does not allow International dialing nor US toll free ("800" > numbers), but you can use the WebEx app to connect your device audio, > and there's also the option of connection directly from your browser if > your browser supports it. WebEx details will be sent to the mailing > list before each call (the details will be the same for all calls, but > the messages will serve as reminders). From nobody Tue Feb 12 13:59:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4155C130DD8 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 13:59:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u2Al5k4ON4w9 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 13:59:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 732B2130DC2 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 13:59:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c8:406a:91ff:fe74:f2b7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x1CLxMco021324 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 22:59:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p54A6CC50.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.166.204.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 43zc4p4b0Tz1Br6; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 22:59:22 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 22:59:21 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 571701559.949023-a64a8e706506934121a628b03755dcb6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8876CDA6-0075-4816-95FB-4E976B1599FE@tzi.org> References: To: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Reminder: CBOR Virtual Meeting: 2019-02-13 X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 21:59:33 -0000 On Feb 12, 2019, at 21:15, Barry Leiba wrote: >=20 > Reminder: The next CBOR teleconference is Wednesday, 13 February; see = below. >=20 > Webex: > = https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dmf31b8e63cfd354ca8461b998aa30c4ba= >=20 > Barry For draft-ietf-cbor-cddl, I have pushed a proposal for Appendix A, = Parsing Expression Grammars (PEG). This is intended to address Ekr=E2=80=99s remaining DISCUSS point. I = know the notice is short, but if you could have a look at the github = repo=E2=80=A6 Unfortunately, xml2rfc is core dumping (!?), so there is no current CI = build, but I pushed a local build: https://cbor-wg.github.io/cddl/draft-ietf-cbor-cddl.html#rfc.appendix.A And a diff of all changes since -06: = https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf= -cbor-cddl.txt&url2=3Dhttps://cbor-wg.github.io/cddl/draft-ietf-cbor-cddl.= txt Maybe we can put a lid on this tomorrow (or at least decide what else is = needed). 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text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.91.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: cbor@ietf.org Message-ID: <155010260140.9639.12388887129134587091@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 16:03:21 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] I-D Action: draft-ietf-cbor-cddl-07.txt X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 00:03:22 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Concise Binary Object Representation Maintenance and Extensions WG of the IETF. Title : Concise data definition language (CDDL): a notational convention to express CBOR and JSON data structures Authors : Henk Birkholz Christoph Vigano Carsten Bormann Filename : draft-ietf-cbor-cddl-07.txt Pages : 62 Date : 2019-02-13 Abstract: This document proposes a notational convention to express CBOR data structures (RFC 7049, Concise Binary Object Representation). Its main goal is to provide an easy and unambiguous way to express structures for protocol messages and data formats that use CBOR or JSON. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cbor-cddl/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cbor-cddl-07 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-cbor-cddl-07 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-cbor-cddl-07 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Feb 13 16:12:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F307713109B; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 16:12:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JpygLt2VfKbY; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 16:12:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EACBD131083; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 16:12:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c8:406a:91ff:fe74:f2b7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x1E0Cc71003039; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 01:12:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p54A6CC50.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.166.204.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 440H056Dldz1Br6; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 01:12:37 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <6882FA6E-B656-4539-AB4D-CF9272B7A269@tzi.org> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 01:12:36 +0100 Cc: IESG , cbor@ietf.org, Barry Leiba , cbor-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-cbor-cddl@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 571795954.335708-d9ffabc5d684b9a29bad0493051c4d6f Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6B4F5D27-0728-43A4-A154-EB5D90591543@tzi.org> References: <154267838656.26631.4178048052675609107.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6882FA6E-B656-4539-AB4D-CF9272B7A269@tzi.org> To: Eric Rescorla X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-cbor-cddl-06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 00:12:50 -0000 On Nov 21, 2018, at 14:10, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 >>> S 3.5.3. >>>> mynumber =3D int / float >>>>=20 >>>> 3.5.3. Non-deterministic order >>>>=20 >>>> While the way arrays are matched is fully determined by the = Parsing >>>> Expression Grammar (PEG) algorithm, matching is more complicated = for >>>=20 >>> PEG is an informative reference, and this text seems to create a >>> normative dependency. >>=20 >> Many of our specifications make use of theory in one form or another = without needing a normative dependency to a textbook. >> RFC 5234 does not even have a reference for BNF. Since PEGs have = been a staple for parsing theory only for less than 15 years, we thought = a reference might be useful. >>=20 >> Then you need to rewrite this text, because here and below, it = implies that I need to read PEG in order to understand this = specification.=20 >=20 > That will be a bit more work than I can do today, so there will be a = separate e-mail when that is done. I=E2=80=99m sorry this took so long. There is now a new Appendix A = (normative) that defines the parts of PEG necessary for this = specification: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cbor-cddl-07#appendix-A https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-cbor-cddl-07.txt The authors believe that this should complete the changes necessary to = clear the DISCUSS; please advise of any more work needed and any = COMMENTS we have not fully addressed yet. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Feb 14 00:31:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11771131056 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 00:31:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ENuI5yhomxRi for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 00:31:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.pdv-fs.de (mail.pdv-fs.de [213.208.220.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4CB7131055 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 00:31:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de (192.168.180.94) by EXCHDB2.pdv-fs.de (192.168.180.95) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; 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Thu, 14 Feb 2019 09:31:06 +0100 From: =?utf-8?B?UmljaHRlciwgSsO2cmc=?= To: "cbor@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Proposal for Date, Time and Time Zones Thread-Index: AdTEOszvWqEfqmNWRgi+93eO+W0ZPw== Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 08:31:06 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.180.93] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_bd4d7f87e98b40d585eb7b4502d4b234pdvFSde_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Proposal for Date, Time and Time Zones X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 08:31:17 -0000 --_000_bd4d7f87e98b40d585eb7b4502d4b234pdvFSde_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGVyZSBpcyBhIHByb3Bvc2FsIHRvIGFzc2lnbiB0YWdzIHRvIGRhdGUsIHRpbWUgb2YgZGF5IGFu ZCB0aW1lIHpvbmUgZGVzaWduYXRvcjoNCmh0dHBzOi8vai1yaWNodGVyLmdpdGh1Yi5pby9DQk9S L2RhdGUuaHRtbA0KDQpGb3IgdGhlIHRhZ3MgSSBoYXZlIGNob3NlbiB2YWx1ZXMgYmV0d2VlbiAy NCBhbmQgMjU1LiBGb3IgZGF0ZSBhbmQgdGltZSBJIGNvdWxkIGltYWdpbmUNCnRvIHVzZSBzbWFs bGVyIHRhZ3MsIGJlY2F1c2UgdGhlIGVuY29kZWQgcGF5bG9hZCBpcyB2ZXJ5IHNob3J0Lg0KDQpE byB5b3UgaGF2ZSBiZXR0ZXIgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMgZm9yIHRoZSB0YWdzPw0KDQoNCg== --_000_bd4d7f87e98b40d585eb7b4502d4b234pdvFSde_ Content-Type: text/html; 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Thu, 14 Feb 2019 11:13:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from [134.102.116.214] (unknown [134.102.116.214]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 440XKt2rzFz1Br6; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 11:13:54 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 11:13:52 +0100 Cc: "cbor@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 571832029.799787-9a1553d05d81fd275f04885e53486576 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5105F5B3-258E-44B4-B756-2444BB336845@tzi.org> References: To: =?utf-8?B?IlJpY2h0ZXIsIErDtnJnIg==?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Proposal for Date, Time and Time Zones X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 10:14:06 -0000 On Feb 14, 2019, at 09:31, Richter, J=C3=B6rg = wrote: >=20 > Here is a proposal to assign tags to date, time of day and time zone = designator: > https://j-richter.github.io/CBOR/date.html I think it is interesting to compare this approach with that of tag = 1001. Tag 1001 tries to combine necessary information (to identify a point in = time) into a single data structure. Your proposal differs in two ways: (1) the date/time-of-day/timezone information is unbundled into separate = tags. (2) the relation to time zones is implicit (contextual). Specifically: =E2=80=94 the =E2=80=9Cdate=E2=80=9D seems to stand for the entire = 24-hour interval of the given day in some timezone taken from the = context =E2=80=94 the =E2=80=9Ctime=E2=80=9D (really time of day) stands for any = point in time that corresponds to that time of day (again in a time zone = taken from the context) =E2=80=94 the =E2=80=9Ctime zone=E2=80=9D stands alone, i.e., is useful = without such contextual information. All of these would make good fields in a 1001-style map (which would = provide the context), except that =E2=80=9Cdate=E2=80=9D really is an = interval (which ) and =E2=80=9Ctime=E2=80=9D (time of day) really is a = recurring event. > For the tags I have chosen values between 24 and 255. For date and = time I could imagine > to use smaller tags, because the encoded payload is very short. > =20 > Do you have better suggestions for the tags? I think the tags proposed are fine. I=E2=80=99m interested in where the = two different approaches would be used (and how to get the = interval/periodic event function into tag 1001-1003). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Feb 14 04:49:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D1EC12F1A2 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 04:49:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.921 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.921 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J-Vz6Mi8GvyW for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 04:49:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.pdv-fs.de (mail.pdv-fs.de [213.208.220.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4260913106D for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 04:49:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de (192.168.180.94) by EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de (192.168.180.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 13:49:08 +0100 Received: from EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de ([fe80::6c4a:8b1b:60f4:4437]) by EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de ([fe80::6c4a:8b1b:60f4:4437%15]) with mapi id 15.01.1466.012; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 13:49:08 +0100 From: =?utf-8?B?UmljaHRlciwgSsO2cmc=?= To: Carsten Bormann CC: "cbor@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Cbor] Proposal for Date, Time and Time Zones Thread-Index: AdTEOszvWqEfqmNWRgi+93eO+W0ZPwACs1MAAAYxEOA= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 12:49:08 +0000 Message-ID: <151a780241b54397bdcdaf06d04668b1@pdv-FS.de> References: <5105F5B3-258E-44B4-B756-2444BB336845@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <5105F5B3-258E-44B4-B756-2444BB336845@tzi.org> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.180.93] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Proposal for Date, Time and Time Zones X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 12:49:13 -0000 VGhlIG1haW4gbW90aXZhdGlvbiBmb3IgZGF0ZSBhbmQgdGltZSBvZiBkYXkgaXMgdG8ganVzdCBy ZXByZXNlbnQgDQp0aGUgc2VtYW50aWMgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24uICBXaXRob3V0IGEgbmVlZCB0byBh c3NpZ24gb25lIG9yIG1vcmUgcG9pbnRzIGluIHRpbWUuDQoNCk5vIG9uZSBjYXJlcyB3aGV0aGVy IGhpcyBiaXJ0aGRheSB3YXMgMjMsIDI0IG9yIDI1IGhvdXJzIGxvbmcuICANCk9wZW5pbmcgaG91 cnMgb2Ygc3RvY2sgZXhjaGFuZ2VzIGFyZSBhbHNvIGp1c3QgcmVwcmVzZW50ZWQgYXMgYSBwYWly IG9mIGNsb2NrIHRpbWVzLg0KT2YgY291cnNlLCBkZXJpdmluZyBjb25jcmV0ZSBwb2ludHMgaW4g dGltZSByZXF1aXJlcyBhbHdheXMgY29udGV4dCBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiANCmxpa2UgdGhlIHRpbWUg em9uZSBvZiB0aGUgc3RvY2sgZXhjaGFuZ2UuIEJ1dCB0aGlzIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIHNob3VsZCBu b3QgYmUgDQpwYXJ0IG9mIHRoZSBjbG9jayB0aW1lLg0KDQpBcyBJIHNlZSBpdCwgdGFnIDEwMDEg aXMgdXNlZnVsIGZvciBwb2ludHMgaW4gdGltZS4gIEkgZmluZCBpdCBwYXJ0aWN1bGFybHkgDQpn b29kIHRoYXQgZGVjaW1hbCBmcmFjdGlvbnMgY2FuIGFsc28gYmUgdXNlZC4gSSBhbSB1bnN1cmUg YWJvdXQgdGhlIG5lZ2F0aXZlDQprZXlzLiBEb24ndCB0aGV5IGRvIHRoZSBzYW1lIGFzIGEgZGVj aW1hbCBmcmFjdGlvbj8gQW5kIHVudXN1YWwgc2NhbGluZyBsaWtlIDEwXi03DQpjYW5ub3QgYmUg dXNlZCBhcyBpcy4gIChXaGljaCBpcyBhcyBpdCBoYXBwZW5zIG91ciBpbnRlcm5hbCByZXNvbHV0 aW9uIG9mDQpwb2ludHMgaW4gdGltZSBhbmQgdGltZSBvZiBkYXkpDQoNCkkgY2FuJ3QgcXVpdGUg aW1hZ2luZSBob3cgdGhlIGNvbmNlcHRzIGNvdWxkIGJlIHVuaWZpZWQuIERvIHlvdSBoYXZlIGFu IA0KaWRlYSBpbiBtaW5kPyAgQWxsIDQgdHlwZXMgKHRpbWVzdGFtcCwgZGF0ZSwgdGltZSBvZiBk YXksIHRpbWUgem9uZSkgYXJlIHVzZWQgDQpzZXBhcmF0ZWx5IGluIG91ciBjb2RlLiAgVG8gbWUg aXQgbWFrZXMgc2Vuc2UgdG8gcmVwcmVzZW50IHRoZW0gZGlzdGluY3RseSBpbiBDQk9SLg0KDQpB Ym91dCBsZWFwIHNlY29uZHM6IE5vdyB0aGF0IEkgdGhpbmsgYWJvdXQgaXQsIGlzIHRhZyAwIGRl ZmluZWQgd2l0aCBsZWFwIHNlY29uZHMgDQpvciB3aXRob3V0PyAgVGhpcyBtaWdodCBwb3NlIGEg cHJvYmxlbSAoZm9yIHVzKS4gIEFueWJvZHkga25vdyB3aGF0IG90aGVyIA0KZW5jb2RlcnMvZGVj b2RlcnMgZG8/DQoNCj4gSeKAmW0gaW50ZXJlc3RlZCBpbiB3aGVyZSB0aGUgdHdvDQo+IGRpZmZl cmVudCBhcHByb2FjaGVzIHdvdWxkIGJlIHVzZWQgKGFuZCBob3cgdG8gZ2V0IHRoZSBpbnRlcnZh bC9wZXJpb2RpYw0KPiBldmVudCBmdW5jdGlvbiBpbnRvIHRhZyAxMDAxLTEwMDMpLg0KDQpJIHRo aW5rIEkgdW5kZXJzdGFuZCAxMDAxLiAgQW5kIEkgdGhpbmsgdGhlIHR3byBhcmUgZGlmZmVyZW50 IHNlbWFudGljIGNvbmNlcHRzLg0KQnV0IEkgY2Fubm90IGZpbmQgYW55dGhpbmcgYWJvdXQgdGFn cyAxMDAyIGFuZCAxMDAzLiAgVGhlIGRyYWZ0IGZvciAxMDAxDQpkb2VzIG5vdCBjb250YWluIG11 Y2ggaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gYWJvdXQgaXQuICBJcyB0aGVyZSBhbm90aGVyIGRvY3VtZW50IHNvbWV3 aGVyZT8NCg0KLSBKw7ZyZw0KDQo= From nobody Thu Feb 14 05:52:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B497413106D for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 05:52:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zzx7FlNNOcKc for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 05:52:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 539D212D84D for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 05:52:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c8:406a:91ff:fe74:f2b7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x1EDqHZv025357; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:52:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from sev.informatik.uni-bremen.de (sev.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 440d9s3KCnz1Br6; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:52:17 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <151a780241b54397bdcdaf06d04668b1@pdv-FS.de> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:52:16 +0100 Cc: "cbor@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 571845134.412986-08414a26c3d19b2fa632814662030e99 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <5105F5B3-258E-44B4-B756-2444BB336845@tzi.org> <151a780241b54397bdcdaf06d04668b1@pdv-FS.de> To: =?utf-8?B?IlJpY2h0ZXIsIErDtnJnIg==?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Proposal for Date, Time and Time Zones X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 13:52:29 -0000 On Feb 14, 2019, at 13:49, Richter, J=C3=B6rg = wrote: >=20 > The main motivation for date and time of day is to just represent=20 > the semantic information. Without a need to assign one or more points = in time. Right, that=E2=80=99s why I think they stand on their own. But I still = would like to understand the whole picture. It would be nice if we could come up with a coherent narrative on when = to use which of these tags. > No one cares whether his birthday was 23, 24 or 25 hours long. =20 > Opening hours of stock exchanges are also just represented as a pair = of clock times. > Of course, deriving concrete points in time requires always context = information=20 > like the time zone of the stock exchange. But this information should = not be=20 > part of the clock time. There are applications that would prefer it to be. However, other applications may not need it, and the proposed tags are = fine for those. > As I see it, tag 1001 is useful for points in time. I find it = particularly=20 > good that decimal fractions can also be used. I am unsure about the = negative > keys. Don=E2=80=99t they do the same as a decimal fraction? Yes, but they save having to combine full seconds and decimal fractions = into a single number, which would be needed for bigdecimals (CBOR Tag = 4). Many UNIX times, as well as the Haskell time which actually = motivated writing the draft, come in seconds/decimal fractions. > And unusual scaling like 10^-7 > cannot be used as is. (Which is as it happens our internal resolution = of > points in time and time of day) If you don=E2=80=99t have split seconds/fractions, you can use Key 4. If you do, and want to preserve the split, we could introduce Key -7. Is that a common representation? I=E2=80=99m familiar with using 10 MHz clocks for frequency references, = but wasn=E2=80=99t aware of its use for time reference. You could also use Key -9, at the cost of one multiplication by 100 = (encoding) or division by 100 (decoding). > I can't quite imagine how the concepts could be unified. Do you have = an=20 > idea in mind? All 4 types (timestamp, date, time of day, time zone) = are used=20 > separately in our code. To me it makes sense to represent them = distinctly in CBOR. It does. We might want to use the contents of the timezone tag as a Key = for Tag 1001 right away. > About leap seconds: Now that I think about it, is tag 0 defined with = leap seconds=20 > or without? This might pose a problem (for us). Anybody know what = other=20 > encoders/decoders do? Tag 0 and 1 use civil time, i.e., time based on UTC. For Tag 1, this = uses the weird Posix format where a leap second and its preceding second = cannot be distinguished. (This is not a problem for Tag 0, if used = properly; many implementations of the RFC 3339 underlying Tag 0 will = however map to Posix time internally and so will have idiosyncrasies = around leap seconds.) (I can=E2=80=99t answer the actual question: I don=E2=80=99t know = whether you consider =E2=80=9Cwith/without leap seconds=E2=80=9D to be = equivalent to UTC/TAI or the other way around; the terminology here is = not very sharp.) For Tag 1001, we intend to have a map key that indicates the time scale, = which would then clearly include TAI as one option. This is not in the = draft yet because we want to discuss this with an actual user of atomic = time. We also have some quite positive feedback for including leap-second = smeared time scales (but which ones?) as further alternatives. >> I=E2=80=99m interested in where the two >> different approaches would be used (and how to get the = interval/periodic >> event function into tag 1001-1003). >=20 > I think I understand 1001. And I think the two are different semantic = concepts. > But I cannot find anything about tags 1002 and 1003. The draft for = 1001 > does not contain much information about it. Is there another document = somewhere? The earlier versions of the draft contained a little more, which we have = cut down for -02. Again, we would like to nail these down based on input from actual users = of the concepts of duration and interval (including their thinking about = semantic dates and concepts such as leap seconds and time zone changes). As a way forward, I wouldn=E2=80=99t mind including the new tags in the = time-tag Internet-Draft, so we have a place where the consistent = narrative mentioned above can be put. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Feb 14 06:47:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32AC1131069 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 06:47:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CR4Y_jgZ89GA for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 06:47:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.jeffnet.31bits.net (josefsipek.net [71.174.113.7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C502A13105F for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 06:47:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from meili (unknown [172.27.0.10]) by smtp.jeffnet.31bits.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F0038261C3; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:47:19 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 09:47:19 -0500 From: Josef 'Jeff' Sipek To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Richter=2C_J=F6rg?= Cc: "cbor@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20190214144719.GA1404@meili> References: <41655d71b9414fb7891487d0123e1b61@pdv-FS.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <41655d71b9414fb7891487d0123e1b61@pdv-FS.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Proposal for Currency and Money Amount X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:47:23 -0000 On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 08:31:10 +0000, Richter, Jörg wrote: > Here is a proposal to assign tags to currency and money amount: > https://j-richter.github.io/CBOR/currency.html Should this support non-decimal currency amounts? As far as I can tell, the only currently in use non-decimal currency is the Mauritania's ouguiya (ISO 4217: MRU & 929) which uses 1 ouguiya = 5 khoums [1]. There are a number of historical currencies that were non-decimal, but I suppose most (all?) of them are irrelevant since they don't have an ISO code. (I suppose the simplest solution to allowing non-decimal currencies would be to make the array 2 or more elements. The currency code tells the consumer how to render the encoded values.) Thanks, Jeff, who doesn't actually have a use for non-decimal currency support in CBOR. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-decimal_currency#Contemporary_non-decimal_currencies > I have used tags 164/165. Code 164 is “CURRENCY SIGN” in Latin1. Not that it matters. > I think there is no reason to use shorter tags here, as currencies are > rarely transferred/saved alone. > Amounts of money are long enough that no shorter tag is worth it. > > It is possible to use only one tag for both applications. But I think the > semantic difference is big enough that two tags are justified. > > > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor -- Fact: 23.6% of all statistics are generated randomly. From nobody Thu Feb 14 06:55:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F392131069 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 06:55:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.921 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.921 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jhYNJhRz8qzu for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 06:55:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.pdv-fs.de (mail.pdv-fs.de [213.208.220.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90F5413104B for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 06:55:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de (192.168.180.94) by EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de (192.168.180.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 15:55:34 +0100 Received: from EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de ([fe80::6c4a:8b1b:60f4:4437]) by EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de ([fe80::6c4a:8b1b:60f4:4437%15]) with mapi id 15.01.1466.012; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 15:55:34 +0100 From: =?utf-8?B?UmljaHRlciwgSsO2cmc=?= To: Carsten Bormann CC: "cbor@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Cbor] Proposal for Date, Time and Time Zones Thread-Index: AdTEOszvWqEfqmNWRgi+93eO+W0ZPwACs1MAAAYxEOAAAW+WAAACzE+A Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:55:34 +0000 Message-ID: <0505e72f187943949ce840d90f6dfaf3@pdv-FS.de> References: <5105F5B3-258E-44B4-B756-2444BB336845@tzi.org> <151a780241b54397bdcdaf06d04668b1@pdv-FS.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.180.93] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Proposal for Date, Time and Time Zones X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:55:39 -0000 PiBZZXMsIGJ1dCB0aGV5IHNhdmUgaGF2aW5nIHRvIGNvbWJpbmUgZnVsbCBzZWNvbmRzIGFuZCBk ZWNpbWFsIGZyYWN0aW9ucw0KPiBpbnRvIGEgc2luZ2xlIG51bWJlciwgd2hpY2ggd291bGQgYmUg bmVlZGVkIGZvciBiaWdkZWNpbWFscyAoQ0JPUiBUYWcgNCkuDQo+IE1hbnkgVU5JWCB0aW1lcywg YXMgd2VsbCBhcyB0aGUgSGFza2VsbCB0aW1lIHdoaWNoIGFjdHVhbGx5IG1vdGl2YXRlZA0KPiB3 cml0aW5nIHRoZSBkcmFmdCwgY29tZSBpbiBzZWNvbmRzL2RlY2ltYWwgZnJhY3Rpb25zLg0KDQpB aGggb2theS4gIFNlZW1zIGxpa2UgSSBoYXZlIG1pc3VuZGVyc3Rvb2QgdGhpcyB1c2FnZS4gIFdl IGFsd2F5cyBoYXZlDQpvdXIgc2Vjb25kcyBhbmQgZnJhY3Rpb25zIGNvbWJpbmVkLiAgDQoNCj4g SWYgeW91IGRvbuKAmXQgaGF2ZSBzcGxpdCBzZWNvbmRzL2ZyYWN0aW9ucywgeW91IGNhbiB1c2Ug 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IHRoZXNlIGRvd24gYmFzZWQgb24gaW5wdXQgZnJvbSBhY3R1YWwgdXNlcnMNCj4gb2YgdGhlIGNv bmNlcHRzIG9mIGR1cmF0aW9uIGFuZCBpbnRlcnZhbCAoaW5jbHVkaW5nIHRoZWlyIHRoaW5raW5n IGFib3V0DQo+IHNlbWFudGljIGRhdGVzIGFuZCBjb25jZXB0cyBzdWNoIGFzIGxlYXAgc2Vjb25k cyBhbmQgdGltZSB6b25lIGNoYW5nZXMpLg0KDQpJIGRvbid0IGtub3cgaWYgaXQncyBhbnkgaGVs cCwgYnV0IHRoZXJlIGFyZSBvdGhlciB0eXBlcyB3ZSB1c2U6DQoqIHRpbWUgZHVyYXRpb24gaW4g ZnJhY3Rpb25hbCBzZWNvbmRzDQoqIFVUQyBvZmZzZXQgaW4gc2Vjb25kcyAobGlrZSArMDE6MDAp DQoqIHBlcmlvZCBvZiB0aW1lIChsaWtlICIzIG1vbnRocyIgb3IgIjcgd2Vla3MiKS4gDQogIEl0 IGNvbnNpc3RzIG9mIHR3byBwYXJ0cy4gQSB3aG9sZSBudW1iZXIgYW5kIHRoZSB1bml0Lg0KKiBh bmQgYW55IGVsZW1lbnQgb2YgYSBkYXRlIGxpa2UgInllYXIiLCAiaG91ciBvZiB0aGUgZGF5IiBl dGMuDQoNCkJ1dCBmb3Igbm93IHdlIGRvbid0IG5lZWQgdGFncyBmb3IgdGhvc2UuDQpBbmQgd2Ug Imlnbm9yZSIgbGVhcCBzZWNvbmRzLCBsaWtlIGFsbCBvdGhlciBzeXN0ZW1zIG91ciBwcm9kdWN0 IGNvbm5lY3RzIHRvLg0KDQpTb21lIG90aGVyIHBvaW50czoNCkkgdGhpbmsgSSB3aWxsIGV4dGVu dCB0aGUgcHJvcG9zYWwgZm9yIHRpbWUgb2YgZGF5IHRvIGluY2x1ZGUgZGVjaW1hbCBmcmFjdGlv bi4NCklzIGl0IHBvc3NpYmxlIHRvIGV4dGVudCBUYWcgMSB0byBhbHNvIGFjY2VwdCBkZWNpbWFs IGZyYWN0aW9uPw0KDQotIErDtnJnDQoNCg== From nobody Fri Feb 15 00:04:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9AD6129A87 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 00:04:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.921 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.921 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y0cYILqxbCvP for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 00:04:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.pdv-fs.de (mail.pdv-fs.de [213.208.220.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13E6812867A for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 00:04:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de (192.168.180.94) by EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de (192.168.180.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:04:13 +0100 Received: from EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de ([fe80::6c4a:8b1b:60f4:4437]) by EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de ([fe80::6c4a:8b1b:60f4:4437%15]) with mapi id 15.01.1466.012; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:04:13 +0100 From: =?utf-8?B?UmljaHRlciwgSsO2cmc=?= To: Josef 'Jeff' Sipek CC: "cbor@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Cbor] Proposal for Currency and Money Amount Thread-Index: AdTEPd7oTfrVqiXQS9Se27nRqE1bOQALe6qAACW1ThA= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 08:04:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <41655d71b9414fb7891487d0123e1b61@pdv-FS.de> <20190214144719.GA1404@meili> In-Reply-To: <20190214144719.GA1404@meili> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.180.93] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Proposal for Currency and Money Amount X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 08:04:20 -0000 PiBTaG91bGQgdGhpcyBzdXBwb3J0IG5vbi1kZWNpbWFsIGN1cnJlbmN5IGFtb3VudHM/DQo+IEFz IGZhciBhcyBJIGNhbiB0ZWxsLCB0aGUgb25seSBjdXJyZW50bHkgaW4gdXNlIG5vbi1kZWNpbWFs IGN1cnJlbmN5IGlzDQo+IHRoZSBNYXVyaXRhbmlhJ3Mgb3VndWl5YSAoSVNPIDQyMTc6IE1SVSAm IDkyOSkgd2hpY2ggdXNlcyAxIG91Z3VpeWEgPSA1IGtob3Vtcw0KPiAuLi4NCj4gKEkgc3VwcG9z ZSB0aGUgc2ltcGxlc3Qgc29sdXRpb24gdG8gYWxsb3dpbmcgbm9uLWRlY2ltYWwgY3VycmVuY2ll cyB3b3VsZCBiZQ0KPiB0byBtYWtlIHRoZSBhcnJheSAyIG9yIG1vcmUgZWxlbWVudHMuICBUaGUg Y3VycmVuY3kgY29kZSB0ZWxscyB0aGUgY29uc3VtZXINCj4gaG93IHRvIHJlbmRlciB0aGUgZW5j 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aGUgTWF1cml0YW5pYW4gb3VndWl5YSBhcmUgdGVjaG5pY2FsbHkgZGl2aWRlZCANCj4gaW50byBm aXZlIHN1YnVuaXRzICh0aGUgaXJhaW1iaWxhbmphIGFuZCBraG91bSByZXNwZWN0aXZlbHkpIHRo ZSBjb2lucyANCj4gZGlzcGxheSAiMS81IiBvbiB0aGVpciBmYWNlIGFuZCBhcmUgcmVmZXJyZWQg dG8gYXMgYSAiZmlmdGgiIChLaG91bS9jaW5xdWnDqG1lKTsgDQo+IFRoZXNlIGFyZSBub3QgdXNl ZCBpbiBwcmFjdGljZSwgYnV0IHdoZW4gd3JpdHRlbiBvdXQsIGEgc2luZ2xlIHNpZ25pZmljYW50 IGRpZ2l0IA0KPiBpcyB1c2VkLiBFLmcuIDEuMiBVTS4NCg0KLSBKw7ZyZw0KDQo= From nobody Fri Feb 15 04:08:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0EDB130FA8 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 04:08:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rnzgA3sEACxa for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 04:08:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.jeffnet.31bits.net (josefsipek.net [71.174.113.7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3D4D130E73 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 04:08:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from meili (unknown [172.27.0.10]) by smtp.jeffnet.31bits.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6E12C26B3A; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 12:08:08 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 07:08:07 -0500 From: Josef 'Jeff' Sipek To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Richter=2C_J=F6rg?= Cc: "cbor@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20190215120807.GA1351@meili> References: <41655d71b9414fb7891487d0123e1b61@pdv-FS.de> <20190214144719.GA1404@meili> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Proposal for Currency and Money Amount X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 12:08:12 -0000 On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 08:04:13 +0000, Richter, Jrg wrote: > > Should this support non-decimal currency amounts? > > As far as I can tell, the only currently in use non-decimal currency is > > the Mauritania's ouguiya (ISO 4217: MRU & 929) which uses 1 ouguiya = 5 khoums > > ... > > (I suppose the simplest solution to allowing non-decimal currencies would be > > to make the array 2 or more elements. The currency code tells the consumer > > how to render the encoded values.) > > I would be very surprised if software would store values of this > currency not with fractions 0.0, 0.2, 0.4, 0.6 or 0.8. > > Many calculations with amounts also use more decimal places than > the currency defines. So there is a need to store a fraction of the smallest unit. > One daily live example would be petrol prices in Germany that have 3 decimal > places instead of the 2 that the Euro defines. > Some applications even require non-decimal fractions like 1/3. > > This is of course representable with just one number. Yeah, that's fair. The pre-decimal "GBP" which, according to wikipedia, was 'divided into 20 shillings and each shilling into 12 pence, making 240 pence to the pound' would be much harder to wedge into a "one number format". Given the use of ISO 4217, I'm happy with the proposal as is (for whatever it's worth) without having explicit support for historical currencies. Jeff. -- Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. - Albert Einstein From nobody Tue Feb 19 02:11:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FBE6130DE3 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 02:11:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WOSitKg8SaaA for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 02:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.pdv-fs.de (mail.pdv-fs.de [213.208.220.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9660B129284 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 02:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de (192.168.180.94) by EXCHDB2.pdv-fs.de (192.168.180.95) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 11:11:11 +0100 Received: from EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de ([fe80::6c4a:8b1b:60f4:4437]) by EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de ([fe80::6c4a:8b1b:60f4:4437%15]) with mapi id 15.01.1466.012; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 11:11:11 +0100 From: =?utf-8?B?UmljaHRlciwgSsO2cmc=?= To: "cbor@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Private Use Tags Thread-Index: AdTIOqbH7vBaupuMSHSPiypDCyPcOQ== Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 10:11:11 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.180.93] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_c262a6100b0d4aaea6fefeff36ad7403pdvFSde_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Private Use Tags X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 10:11:16 -0000 --_000_c262a6100b0d4aaea6fefeff36ad7403pdvFSde_ Content-Type: text/plain; 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Tue, 19 Feb 2019 13:27:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p54A6C2FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.166.194.254]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 443g3Y3Sfgz1Br6; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 13:27:21 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 13:27:20 +0100 Cc: "cbor@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 572272038.280677-673848f03e9a91fe33e0259750ef2997 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: =?utf-8?B?IlJpY2h0ZXIsIErDtnJnIg==?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Private Use Tags X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 12:27:39 -0000 Hi J=C3=B6rg, The IETF has a long and checkered history with private-use allocations. Generally, the observation is that private-use allocations start to get = used for something that does get wide deployment, and suddenly, those = allocations take on specific semantics and no longer truly are available = for private use. This is somewhat related to the =E2=80=9CX-Dash problem=E2=80=9D, which = is discussed in RFC 6648. Instead, you can just go ahead and register the tags =E2=80=9CJ=C3=B6rg = Richter Private 1=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9CJ=C3=B6rg Richter Private 10=E2=80=9D= . (Preferably in the 1+2 or, if the allocation is huge, 1+4 byte = space.) The Tag number space is huge, so it is unlikely we will run out = because of such private use allocations. And if one of these suddenly = takes off, you can keep the number and change the name (and supply a = specification, I hope). (You might want to use a middle person for the = allocation if you don=E2=80=99t even want to disclose that you are using = CBOR Tags.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On Feb 19, 2019, at 11:11, Richter, J=C3=B6rg = wrote: >=20 > I had the idea to tag some internal types. These types are=20 > never transferred to other communication partners. > Would it be possible to provide a tag range that is explicitly > marked as "Private Use Area"? This would exclude the > possibility that these tags will be assigned in the future and > that there will be a collision. > =20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor From nobody Tue Feb 19 04:44:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6C90130E91 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 04:44:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B8qubFnoAsy9 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 04:44:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.pdv-fs.de (mail.pdv-fs.de [213.208.220.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D7B212867A for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 04:44:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de (192.168.180.94) by EXCHDB2.pdv-fs.de (192.168.180.95) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 13:44:42 +0100 Received: from EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de ([fe80::6c4a:8b1b:60f4:4437]) by EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de ([fe80::6c4a:8b1b:60f4:4437%15]) with mapi id 15.01.1466.012; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 13:44:42 +0100 From: =?utf-8?B?UmljaHRlciwgSsO2cmc=?= To: Carsten Bormann CC: "cbor@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Cbor] Private Use Tags Thread-Index: AdTIOqbH7vBaupuMSHSPiypDCyPcOQAC2yoAAAJ3lNA= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 12:44:42 +0000 Message-ID: <9b9d1eb961f74114b466c8ea0c5bce39@pdv-FS.de> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.180.93] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Private Use Tags X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 12:44:48 -0000 R29vZCBwb2ludC4gQXQgdGhlIG1vbWVudCBJIHVzZSB0YWcgMjcgZm9yIGl0LiAoU2VyaWFsaXNl ZCANCmxhbmd1YWdlLWluZGVwZW5kZW50IG9iamVjdCB3aXRoIHR5cGUgbmFtZSBhbmQgY29uc3Ry dWN0b3IgYXJndW1lbnRzKQ0KDQpUaGUgZGlzYWR2YW50YWdlIGlzIHRoYXQgdGhlIENCT1IgZW5j b2RpbmcgaXMgcXVpdGUgbG9uZy4NCkJ1dCBJIHRoaW5rIEknbGwga2VlcCB0aGF0IGZvciBub3cg YW5kIGFsbG9jYXRlIHRhZ3Mgd2hlbiB0aGUgbmVlZCBncm93cy4NCg0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2lu YWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IENhcnN0ZW4gQm9ybWFubiBbbWFpbHRvOmNhYm9AdHpp Lm9yZ10NCj4gU2VudDogVHVlc2RheSwgRmVicnVhcnkgMTksIDIwMTkgMToyNyBQTQ0KPiBUbzog UmljaHRlciwgSsO2cmcNCj4gQ2M6IGNib3JAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtDYm9y XSBQcml2YXRlIFVzZSBUYWdzDQo+IA0KPiBIaSBKw7ZyZywNCj4gDQo+IFRoZSBJRVRGIGhhcyBh IGxvbmcgYW5kIGNoZWNrZXJlZCBoaXN0b3J5IHdpdGggcHJpdmF0ZS11c2UgYWxsb2NhdGlvbnMu DQo+IA0KPiBHZW5lcmFsbHksIHRoZSBvYnNlcnZhdGlvbiBpcyB0aGF0IHByaXZhdGUtdXNlIGFs bG9jYXRpb25zIHN0YXJ0IHRvIGdldA0KPiB1c2VkIGZvciBzb21ldGhpbmcgdGhhdCBkb2VzIGdl dCB3aWRlIGRlcGxveW1lbnQsIGFuZCBzdWRkZW5seSwgdGhvc2UNCj4gYWxsb2NhdGlvbnMgdGFr ZSBvbiBzcGVjaWZpYyBzZW1hbnRpY3MgYW5kIG5vIGxvbmdlciB0cnVseSBhcmUgYXZhaWxhYmxl DQo+IGZvciBwcml2YXRlIHVzZS4NCj4gVGhpcyBpcyBzb21ld2hhdCByZWxhdGVkIHRvIHRoZSDi gJxYLURhc2ggcHJvYmxlbeKAnSwgd2hpY2ggaXMgZGlzY3Vzc2VkIGluDQo+IFJGQyA2NjQ4Lg0K PiANCj4gSW5zdGVhZCwgeW91IGNhbiBqdXN0IGdvIGFoZWFkIGFuZCByZWdpc3RlciB0aGUgdGFn cyDigJxKw7ZyZyBSaWNodGVyIFByaXZhdGUNCj4gMeKAnSB0byDigJxKw7ZyZyBSaWNodGVyIFBy aXZhdGUgMTDigJ0uICAoUHJlZmVyYWJseSBpbiB0aGUgMSsyIG9yLCBpZiB0aGUNCj4gYWxsb2Nh dGlvbiBpcyBodWdlLCAxKzQgYnl0ZSBzcGFjZS4pICBUaGUgVGFnIG51bWJlciBzcGFjZSBpcyBo dWdlLCBzbyBpdA0KPiBpcyB1bmxpa2VseSB3ZSB3aWxsIHJ1biBvdXQgYmVjYXVzZSBvZiBzdWNo IHByaXZhdGUgdXNlIGFsbG9jYXRpb25zLiAgQW5kDQo+IGlmIG9uZSBvZiB0aGVzZSBzdWRkZW5s eSB0YWtlcyBvZmYsIHlvdSBjYW4ga2VlcCB0aGUgbnVtYmVyIGFuZCBjaGFuZ2UgdGhlDQo+IG5h bWUgKGFuZCBzdXBwbHkgYSBzcGVjaWZpY2F0aW9uLCBJIGhvcGUpLiAgKFlvdSBtaWdodCB3YW50 IHRvIHVzZSBhDQo+IG1pZGRsZSBwZXJzb24gZm9yIHRoZSBhbGxvY2F0aW9uIGlmIHlvdSBkb27i gJl0IGV2ZW4gd2FudCB0byBkaXNjbG9zZSB0aGF0DQo+IHlvdSBhcmUgdXNpbmcgQ0JPUiBUYWdz LikNCj4gDQo+IEdyw7zDn2UsIENhcnN0ZW4NCj4gDQo+ID4gT24gRmViIDE5LCAyMDE5LCBhdCAx MToxMSwgUmljaHRlciwgSsO2cmcgPEpvZXJnLlJpY2h0ZXJAcGR2LUZTLmRlPg0KPiB3cm90ZToN Cj4gPg0KPiA+IEkgaGFkIHRoZSBpZGVhIHRvIHRhZyBzb21lIGludGVybmFsIHR5cGVzLiBUaGVz ZSB0eXBlcyBhcmUNCj4gPiBuZXZlciB0cmFuc2ZlcnJlZCB0byBvdGhlciBjb21tdW5pY2F0aW9u IHBhcnRuZXJzLg0KPiA+IFdvdWxkIGl0IGJlIHBvc3NpYmxlIHRvIHByb3ZpZGUgYSB0YWcgcmFu Z2UgdGhhdCBpcyBleHBsaWNpdGx5DQo+ID4gbWFya2VkIGFzICJQcml2YXRlIFVzZSBBcmVhIj8g VGhpcyB3b3VsZCBleGNsdWRlIHRoZQ0KPiA+IHBvc3NpYmlsaXR5IHRoYXQgdGhlc2UgdGFncyB3 aWxsIGJlIGFzc2lnbmVkIGluIHRoZSBmdXR1cmUgYW5kDQo+ID4gdGhhdCB0aGVyZSB3aWxsIGJl IGEgY29sbGlzaW9uLg0KPiA+DQo+ID4NCj4gPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiA+IENCT1IgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+ID4gQ0JPUkBpZXRm Lm9yZw0KPiA+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vY2Jvcg0KDQo= From nobody Tue Feb 19 14:52:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3D5D131017 for ; 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Tue, 19 Feb 2019 14:52:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([118.148.79.176]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q86sm20310878pfi.171.2019.02.19.14.52.32 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 19 Feb 2019 14:52:33 -0800 (PST) To: Carsten Bormann , =?UTF-8?Q?Richter=2c_J=c3=b6rg?= Cc: "cbor@ietf.org" References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <1225d9a8-93ed-4e4a-3202-df79cc52f239@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 11:52:28 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Private Use Tags X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 22:52:38 -0000 On 2019-02-20 01:27, Carsten Bormann wrote: > Hi J=C3=B6rg, >=20 > The IETF has a long and checkered history with private-use allocations.= >=20 > Generally, the observation is that private-use allocations start to get= used for something that does get wide deployment, and suddenly, those al= locations take on specific semantics and no longer truly are available fo= r private use. > This is somewhat related to the =E2=80=9CX-Dash problem=E2=80=9D, which= is discussed in RFC 6648. In my not unbiased opinion, it's also related to the limited domains prob= lem [https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-limited-domains] and the= whole topic of protocol extensions [https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6709]= =2E Perhaps not a topic for this list, but I agree with Carsten that regi= stering a tag intended for private use is much safer than using a potenti= ally ambiguous value. Brian >=20 > Instead, you can just go ahead and register the tags =E2=80=9CJ=C3=B6rg= Richter Private 1=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9CJ=C3=B6rg Richter Private 10=E2=80= =9D. (Preferably in the 1+2 or, if the allocation is huge, 1+4 byte spac= e.) The Tag number space is huge, so it is unlikely we will run out beca= use of such private use allocations. And if one of these suddenly takes = off, you can keep the number and change the name (and supply a specificat= ion, I hope). (You might want to use a middle person for the allocation = if you don=E2=80=99t even want to disclose that you are using CBOR Tags.)= >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 >> On Feb 19, 2019, at 11:11, Richter, J=C3=B6rg wrote: >> >> I had the idea to tag some internal types. These types are=20 >> never transferred to other communication partners. >> Would it be possible to provide a tag range that is explicitly >> marked as "Private Use Area"? This would exclude the >> possibility that these tags will be assigned in the future and >> that there will be a collision. >> =20 >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ >> CBOR mailing list >> CBOR@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor >=20 > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor >=20 From nobody Fri Feb 22 20:59:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 160A7130F03; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 20:59:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gKg30Pk70HW0; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 20:59:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1582E130EE8; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 20:59:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.200.7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x1N4xd72019444; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 05:59:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p54A6C2FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.166.194.254]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 445wx743sFz1Bp8; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 05:59:39 +0100 (CET) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 572590776.633619-15478b9ee2b3a7f7ffb62e3339313eb3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2019 05:59:38 +0100 Message-Id: To: ace@ietf.org, core , cose , cbor@ietf.org, t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF104: DRAFT AGENDA X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2019 04:59:53 -0000 Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda based on the DRAFT AGENDA for IETF104. Remember that there is still quite some potential for changes. cose/teep and lpwan/t2trg are some annoying conflicts that meet the eye. I also don't like that I'll have to miss the cacao BOF (vs. core), dinrg/suit, coinrg/git. All times are CET (Central European Time) =3D=3D UTC +1 hours. Note = that there is no daylight saving time in effect at the time in Europe (this starts on the Sunday *after* IETF). (You can get pure UTC times on https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda-utc, for those who want to listen from remote.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten SATURDAY/SUNDAY, March 23/24. 2019 -- Hackathon (including various interops) (Grand Hilton Ballroom) -- Sun 1700-1900 Welcome Reception - Congress Hall 1/2 -- Sun 1800-2000 Hot RFC Lightning Talks - Congress Hall 3 MONDAY, March 25, 2019 0900-1100 Morning Session I Congress H 3 ART dispatch Dispatch WG - Joint with ARTAREA Congress H 2 INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Congress H 1 IRTF pearg Privacy Enhancements and Assessments = Proposed Research Group Karlin 3 RTG bier Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG 1120-1220 Morning Session II Congress H 1 INT *** 6tisch IPv6 over the TSCH mode of IEEE = 802.15.4e WG Congress H 2 SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG Karlin 1/2 TSV rmcat RTP Media Congestion Avoidance = Techniques WG 1350-1550 Afternoon Session I Karlin 1/2 INT *** 6lo IPv6 over Networks of = Resource-constrained Nodes WG Congress H 2 IRTF irtfopen IRTF Open Meeting Congress H 3 SEC secdispatch Security Dispatch WG 1610-1810 Afternoon Session II Congress H 2 ART httpbis Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG Congress H 3 IAB smart Stopping Malware and Researching Threats Karlin 1/2 INT dnssd Extensions for Scalable DNS Service = Discovery WG Berlin/Brussels IRTF qirg Quantum Internet Proposed Research Group Karlin 3 RTG *** roll Routing Over Low power and Lossy = networks WG Athens/Barcel. SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG Congress H 1 TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG TUESDAY, March 26, 2019 0900-1100 Morning Session I Karlin 3 ART uta Using TLS in Applications WG - 1000 - = 1100 Karlin 1/2 INT homenet Home Networking WG Congress H 3 RTG rtgarea Routing Area Open Meeting Berlin/Brussels SEC *** cose CBOR Object Signing and Encryption WG Grand Hilton BR SEC *** teep Trusted Execution Environment = Provisioning WG Congress H 2 TSV quic QUIC WG 1120-1220 Morning Session II Berlin/Brussels INT *** lwig Light-Weight Implementation Guidance WG Congress H 1 IRTF qirg Quantum Internet Proposed Research Group Athens/Barcel. RTG bier Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG Congress H 3 TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG 1350-1550 Afternoon Session I Berlin/Brussels ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Congress H 3 OPS anima Autonomic Networking Integrated Model = and Approach WG Congress H 2 SEC mls Messaging Layer Security WG Grand Hilton BR TSV tsvarea Transport Area Open Meeting 1610-1810 Afternoon Session II Congress H 1 INT *** lpwan IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks = WG Congress H 3 IRTF*** t2trg Thing-to-Thing Congress H 2 SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG WEDNESDAY, March 27, 2019 0900-1100 Morning Session I Karlin 1/2 IRTF*** dinrg Decentralized Internet Infrastructure Congress H 3 RTG detnet Deterministic Networking WG Berlin/Brussels RTG rift Routing In Fat Trees WG Grand Hilton BR SEC *** suit Software Updates for Internet of Things = WG Congress H 2 TSV quic QUIC WG 1120-1320 Morning Session II Grand Hilton BR IRTF cfrg Crypto Forum - 12:20 - 13:20 Grand Hilton BR SEC acme Automated Certificate Management = Environment WG - 11:20 - 12:20 1500-1700 Afternoon Session I Grand Hilton BR OPS wgtlgo Technology Deep Dive - Modern Router = Architecture BOF THURSDAY, March 28, 2019 0900-1030 Morning Session I Karlin 3 ART *** cbor Concise Binary Object Representation = Maintenance and Extensions WG Congress H 3 IRTF panrg Path Aware Networking RG Athens/Barcel. RTG babel Babel routing protocol WG Congress H 1 SEC mls Messaging Layer Security WG Berlin/Brussels SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG 1050-1220 Morning Session II Congress H 3 GEN git GitHub Integration and Tooling WG Congress H 1 IRTF coinrg Computing in the Network Congress H 2 IRTF maprg Measurement and Analysis for Protocols 1350-1550 Afternoon Session I Congress H 1 INT intarea Internet Area Working Group WG Grand Hilton BR SEC *** rats Remote ATtestation ProcedureS BOF 1610-1810 Afternoon Session II Grand Hilton BR ART httpbis Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG Karlin 1/2 INT *** paw Predictable and Available Wireless BOF Berlin/Brussels OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG Congress H 2 SEC saag Security Area Open Meeting FRIDAY, March 29, 2019 0900-1030 Morning Session I Congress H 3 ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Grand Hilton BR INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Berlin/Brussels SEC cacao Collaborative Automated Course of Action = Operations for Cyber Security BOF 1050-1250 Morning Session II Athens/Barcel. INT ipwave IP Wireless Access in Vehicular = Environments WG Congress H 1 IRTF icnrg Information-Centric Networking Grand Hilton BR SEC *** ace Authentication and Authorization for = Constrained Environments WG Karlin 1/2 TSV taps Transport Services WG From nobody Fri Feb 22 21:04:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17360130E30; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 21:04:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id npd5YiMhh7wp; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 21:04:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2517128B33; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 21:04:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.200.7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x1N53tVK024751; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 06:04:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p54A6C2FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.166.194.254]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 445x2310zXz1Bp8; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 06:03:55 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2019 06:03:54 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 572591032.521777-d2548c66452750c48513149efff3b1fa Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2379FFCD-B44C-4BF7-986C-81BA83189575@tzi.org> References: To: ace , core , cose , cbor@ietf.org, t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] [T2TRG] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF104: DRAFT AGENDA X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2019 05:04:06 -0000 On Feb 23, 2019, at 05:59, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 >=20 > Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda based on the DRAFT AGENDA > for IETF104. Remember that there is still quite some potential for > changes. And how could I forget: FRIDAY, March 22, 2019 =E2=80=94 Fri 0930=E2=80=931800 T2TRG Work Meeting =E2=80=94 Room TBD Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sat Feb 23 12:32:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FCBC130E8C for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 12:32:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pXHxVvG5TMAM for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 12:32:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3plsmtpa08-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa08-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.108]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F0C7130E6E for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 12:32:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.198.0.82] ([167.160.116.44]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPSA id xdyGgfjEF1rzHxdyGgIKwS; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 13:32:28 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Message-Id: <81789050-5133-48B0-BEE7-4F1E0BBB4C06@island-resort.com> Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2019 12:32:27 -0800 To: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfJpmmae9Yuy+GSuUI74/w/4AMaRC221iKJ8CFebjYwKfX3PqbRWUuaQnxI+Je/UiUnYA3UuvWiWD3BiR1emhW9kszt7PeavEhsU3EmLuSt4Xz6zJxCWW q62aEAdFR+YBRC6Zjn3eW4zJJSxhGKC5KNA0zof7QUjXebVwFjscjZCE Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] correctness of implied top level array? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2019 20:32:31 -0000 The current CBOR playground works like this: Input 0x00, (one byte) and it decodes to a single integer of value 0 Input 0x82 0x00 0x00 (three bytes) and it decodes to an array of two = zeros Input 0x00 0x00 (two bytes) and it decodes to a single integer with = one extra byte, an error Similarly substitute 0x40, a zero length byte string, for 0x00 and = it works the same as the above three Similarly substitute 0xf4, =E2=80=9Cfalse", for 0x00 and it works = the same above three That is, the top level of a chunk of encoded CBOR can either be a map, = an array or a single non-structured data item like an integer, string or = simple type.=20 I think in theory you could have an implied array at the top level and = allow 0x00 0x00 to decode correctly, but it is probably better not to = allow this implied array. It might save someone a byte or two or three = or five or nine, but I think allowing it creates an unnecessary special = case.=20 So 0x00, 0x00 and such should be documented as not-well-formed in the = RFC and the Appendix C pseudo code should be fixed by tracking the = whether the top-level is being decoded or not. LL From nobody Sun Feb 24 04:36:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0948128CE4 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 04:36:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E_Tukcct_FL3 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 04:36:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A23E2128CB7 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 04:36:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c8:406a:91ff:fe74:f2b7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x1OCa9fW002075; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 13:36:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p54A6C2FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.166.194.254]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 446l1P3V6rz1Bp8; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 13:36:09 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <81789050-5133-48B0-BEE7-4F1E0BBB4C06@island-resort.com> Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 13:36:08 +0100 Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 572704566.569163-42266792cc27e07b2e31c24e74b07214 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <40A3B694-80A4-4AD7-A2A6-C071C6E88D2D@tzi.org> References: <81789050-5133-48B0-BEE7-4F1E0BBB4C06@island-resort.com> To: Laurence Lundblade X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] correctness of implied top level array? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 12:36:22 -0000 Hi Laurence, the construction you describe is different from a CBOR data item: It is a CBOR Sequence. You piqued me to finally write it up, see below. More generally speaking, an encoded CBOR data item followed by residual = data is a very valid construction, for instance for a piece of metadata = tacked on as a header to a binary blob. CBOR=E2=80=99s self-delimiting = is all you need here. The metadata part doesn=E2=80=99t stop to be well-formed by being = followed by that binary blob. But of course the whole thing *is* not, but still *has* a well-formed = encoded CBOR data item. Unfortunately, not very many CBOR libraries have an API that allows = isolating that metadata header from its residual data. Maybe it=E2=80=99s= worth writing a draft about suggested API functionality as well. (One = other thing that recently came up and is supported by too few CBOR = library APIs is using an already encoded CBOR data item during encoding = an array, map, or Tag.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten Name: draft-bormann-cbor-sequence Revision: 00 Title: Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) Sequences Document date: 2019-02-24 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 8 URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bormann-cbor-sequence-00.txt Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bormann-cbor-sequence/ Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-cbor-sequence-00 Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bormann-cbor-sequence Abstract: This document describes the Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) Sequence format and associated media type "application/cbor- seq". A CBOR Sequence consists of any number of encoded CBOR data items, simply concatenated in sequence. Structured syntax suffixes for media types allow other media types to build on them and make it explicit that they are built on an existing media type as their foundation. This specification defines and registers "+cbor-seq" as a structured syntax suffix for CBOR Sequences. From nobody Mon Feb 25 01:28:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E36C12F1A5 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 01:28:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=changaco.oy.lc Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C6xzTI1wjdlw for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 01:28:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from changaco.net (changaco.net [5.135.153.125]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9768612894E for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 01:28:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from changaco.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by changaco.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id d6b63061 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 09:28:22 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=changaco.oy.lc; h=date :from:to:subject:message-id:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; s=changaco; bh=BVaUSw7t3LlUhEHZcsB50 iper6A=; b=hbdYVNr7VqPAX7sGKuLSIr+n+v11WpssG9TwyQ7JFBw85ago811en NRlR5SOcG1sp8Sq6myrXU0cmmmmJAFEyGkJ/OHiPz4naUwFZMi6rNLRf2yVEzmlo i7lIkGwdD6DiADvJp0v5q0jIhJUHlKsxp4gCF0+1cK7t+0Y6GNX7Hs= Received: by changaco.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 4205c491 (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256:NO) for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 09:28:22 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 10:28:21 +0100 From: Changaco To: cbor@ietf.org Message-ID: <20190225102821.583b57b9.changaco@changaco.oy.lc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Money amounts X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 09:28:29 -0000 Hello everyone, I've started using tags 77111 and 77112 for money amounts and written a spec for them: https://liberapay.github.io/specs/cbor-money.html I hadn't seen the previous proposal but it's different from mine so I think the two are complementary. That said tags 165 and 77111 do represent the same thing so 77111 could be abandoned if 165 is extended to support more use cases. P.S. The form to register new tags is the one in , right? --- Charly C. / @Changaco From nobody Mon Feb 25 01:41:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06FAA12F1AB for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 01:41:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id olkYmtniLxFt for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 01:41:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A13412894E for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 01:41:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.200.7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x1P9fG0O024177; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 10:41:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p54A6C2FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.166.194.254]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 447H575sbBz1Bp8; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 10:41:15 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20190225102821.583b57b9.changaco@changaco.oy.lc> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 10:41:14 +0100 Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 572780472.921688-f8f542c2426e9ea0d7a45d6edfe4a9ad Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20190225102821.583b57b9.changaco@changaco.oy.lc> To: Changaco X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Money amounts X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 09:41:32 -0000 Hi Charly, What is the difference between a 77112 basket with just one currency in = it and a 77111 money? (I=E2=80=99m not a big fan of having to parse the string version of = 77111, but if that string style is important to your application, = that=E2=80=99s not relevant.) You never have the use case of an alternative (like 77112, but =E2=80=9Cei= ther pay USD 25 or EUR 20 or CAD 30 or AUD 35=E2=80=9D)? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On Feb 25, 2019, at 10:28, Changaco = wrote: >=20 > Hello everyone, >=20 > I've started using tags 77111 and 77112 for money amounts and written = a spec for them: https://liberapay.github.io/specs/cbor-money.html >=20 > I hadn't seen the previous proposal = but it's different from = mine so I think the two are complementary. That said tags 165 and 77111 = do represent the same thing so 77111 could be abandoned if 165 is = extended to support more use cases. >=20 > P.S. The form to register new tags is the one in = , right? >=20 > --- > Charly C. / @Changaco >=20 > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor >=20 From nobody Mon Feb 25 02:44:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6296130F35 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 02:44:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=changaco.oy.lc Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jexDzwwrh0Lf for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 02:44:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from changaco.net (changaco.net [5.135.153.125]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4C7A130F52 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 02:44:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from changaco.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by changaco.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 9f44482b; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 10:44:20 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=changaco.oy.lc; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= changaco; bh=wfMHlatbpGx0GTLaFzJQKKn7iEs=; b=YDXWEDO5Hna9QNkjA16 hIEuXKYpLVtkmnXjcFcYFJ1qn/X2RWc3SGefW2xzps6CUlttYZvgIlaP7TicCXC4 uMP6dCv3RdO+2x9YPdLS2cztH1ZeIBdW3DAFAXjGqd/z3MuaTm3GAhKx3ihUJz+L 3Gtxp+WvgGSLmPveSXrW+qfg= Received: by changaco.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 1174a1a7 (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256:NO); Mon, 25 Feb 2019 10:44:20 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 11:44:18 +0100 From: Changaco To: Carsten Bormann Cc: cbor@ietf.org Message-ID: <20190225114418.5eaea1dd.changaco@changaco.oy.lc> In-Reply-To: References: <20190225102821.583b57b9.changaco@changaco.oy.lc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Money amounts X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 10:44:32 -0000 On Mon, 25 Feb 2019 10:41:14 +0100 Carsten Bormann wrote: > What is the difference between a 77112 basket with just one currency in i= t and a 77111 money? We use baskets when summing amounts that *can* be in different currencies, = but in fact there may only be one currency, or none at all, so the basket c= an end up containing only one currency or be completely empty. I put an example of a basket with only one currency to show that it is vali= d. > (I=E2=80=99m not a big fan of having to parse the string version of 77111= , but if that string style is important to your application, that=E2=80=99s= not relevant.) It's not really important, I added it mostly because for some "small" amoun= ts it can actually be shorter than other formats. For example `"EUR10.00"` takes up 9 bytes whereas `["EUR", 10.00]` uses 11 = bytes when the number is encoded as a decimal fraction (tag 4). > You never have the use case of an alternative (like 77112, but =E2=80=9Ce= ither pay USD 25 or EUR 20 or CAD 30 or AUD 35=E2=80=9D)? No. From nobody Mon Feb 25 03:07:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CB6F12D4E6 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 03:07:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.921 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.921 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zl6lhXLEq1Bx for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 03:07:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.pdv-fs.de (mail.pdv-fs.de [213.208.220.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7B10127287 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 03:06:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de (192.168.180.94) by EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de (192.168.180.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:06:57 +0100 Received: from EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de ([fe80::6c4a:8b1b:60f4:4437]) by EXCHDB1.pdv-fs.de ([fe80::6c4a:8b1b:60f4:4437%15]) with mapi id 15.01.1466.012; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:06:57 +0100 From: =?utf-8?B?UmljaHRlciwgSsO2cmc=?= To: Changaco , Carsten Bormann CC: "cbor@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Cbor] Money amounts Thread-Index: AQHUzOx92SDKrErmaU2DctY4qiZ6Z6XwMeIAgAARnwCAABUloA== Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 11:06:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20190225102821.583b57b9.changaco@changaco.oy.lc> <20190225114418.5eaea1dd.changaco@changaco.oy.lc> In-Reply-To: <20190225114418.5eaea1dd.changaco@changaco.oy.lc> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.180.93] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Money amounts X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 11:07:02 -0000 PiA+IChJ4oCZbSBub3QgYSBiaWcgZmFuIG9mIGhhdmluZyB0byBwYXJzZSB0aGUgc3RyaW5nIHZl cnNpb24gb2YgNzcxMTEsIGJ1dA0KPiBpZiB0aGF0IHN0cmluZyBzdHlsZSBpcyBpbXBvcnRhbnQg dG8geW91ciBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbiwgdGhhdOKAmXMgbm90DQo+IHJlbGV2YW50LikNCj4gDQo+IEl0 J3Mgbm90IHJlYWxseSBpbXBvcnRhbnQsIEkgYWRkZWQgaXQgbW9zdGx5IGJlY2F1c2UgZm9yIHNv bWUgInNtYWxsIg0KPiBhbW91bnRzIGl0IGNhbiBhY3R1YWxseSBiZSBzaG9ydGVyIHRoYW4gb3Ro ZXIgZm9ybWF0cy4NCj4gDQo+IEZvciBleGFtcGxlIGAiRVVSMTAuMDAiYCB0YWtlcyB1cCA5IGJ5 dGVzIHdoZXJlYXMgYFsiRVVSIiwgMTAuMDBdYCB1c2VzIDExDQo+IGJ5dGVzIHdoZW4gdGhlIG51 bWJlciBpcyBlbmNvZGVkIGFzIGEgZGVjaW1hbCBmcmFjdGlvbiAodGFnIDQpLg0KDQpBbmQgSSdt IG5vdCBhIGJpZyBmYW4gb2YgZW5jb2RpbmcgYWRkaXRpb25hbCBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBpbiB0aGUg bnVtYmVyIG9mIA0KZGVjaW1hbCBwbGFjZXMuICBTbyAiRVVSMTAuMDAiIHNob3VsZCBiZSB0cmFu c21pdHRlZCBhcyAiRVVSMTAiLCBvciBbIkVVUiIsMTBdLg0KQnV0IGZvciBvdGhlciBkZWNpbWFs IGZyYWN0aW9ucyB5b3UgYXJlIHJpZ2h0IHRoYXQgdGhlIHN0cmluZyBtaWdodCBiZSBzaG9ydGVy Lg0KDQpJc24ndCB0aGlzIGEgdXNlIGNhc2UgZm9yIHRoZSBhZGRpdGlvbmFsIGF0dHJpYnV0ZXMg bWFwPyAgVG8gZW5jb2RlIHRoZSANCm51bWJlciBvZiBkZWNpbWFsIHBsYWNlcyB0aGF0IHNob3Vs ZCBiZSB1c2VkIChlLmcuIGZvciBkaXNwbGF5KS4gIFdoYXQNCm90aGVyIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9ucyBk byB5b3UgaGF2ZSBpbiBtaW5kIGZvciB0aGUgYXR0cmlidXRlIG1hcD8NCkNhbiBzb21lIGNvbW1v biBhdHRyaWJ1dGVzIGJlIGluY2x1ZGVkIGluIHRoZSBwcm9wb3NhbD8NCg0KSWYgdGhlcmUgaXMg Y29uc2Vuc3VzIEkgY2FuIGluY2x1ZGUgeW91ciBleHRlbnNpb25zIGludG8gbXkgcHJvcG9zYWwg Zm9yIHRhZyAxNjUuDQoNCi0gSsO2cmcNCg0K From nobody Tue Feb 26 20:11:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECD90130DF6 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 20:11:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25STYzyKchWv for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 20:11:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3plsmtpa06-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa06-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 377D0130DEC for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 20:11:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.82] ([76.192.164.238]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPSA id yqYkg059a12o1yqYlgAKoA; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 21:11:07 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Laurence Lundblade In-Reply-To: <40A3B694-80A4-4AD7-A2A6-C071C6E88D2D@tzi.org> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 20:11:06 -0800 Cc: cbor@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <81789050-5133-48B0-BEE7-4F1E0BBB4C06@island-resort.com> <40A3B694-80A4-4AD7-A2A6-C071C6E88D2D@tzi.org> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfNQFXpovs66hHMZO3oSMd5rHVCkm0WCz/a68UT2fAPeZilOsPotgkex75YIDYVgqG4ClpuDbFFVEcRvJU9SF1W4KBX9dwJxZmtp/fYSDk8ScnwnXq6fk JAihXtRkqIHw00pRghIkyOdUlR+O/wqhXHs8ey52zHFwIIiD+NRWjK5TQGuLIEjgTEIyN4YtNgKprg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] correctness of implied top level array? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 04:11:10 -0000 Hi Carsten, So wouldn=E2=80=99t that mean application/cbor is required to consist of = one and only one data item with no extra data? And maybe we need a = section that says when you design a CBOR protocol you should be clear = whether it carries a CBOR sequence or a CBOR data item. Maybe say the = preferred encoding the CBOR data item because to be similar to JSON = where you can=E2=80=99t have loose name/value pairs? LL > On Feb 24, 2019, at 4:36 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > Hi Laurence, >=20 > the construction you describe is different from a CBOR data item: > It is a CBOR Sequence. You piqued me to finally write it up, see = below. >=20 > More generally speaking, an encoded CBOR data item followed by = residual data is a very valid construction, for instance for a piece of = metadata tacked on as a header to a binary blob. CBOR=E2=80=99s = self-delimiting is all you need here. > The metadata part doesn=E2=80=99t stop to be well-formed by being = followed by that binary blob. > But of course the whole thing *is* not, but still *has* a well-formed = encoded CBOR data item. >=20 > Unfortunately, not very many CBOR libraries have an API that allows = isolating that metadata header from its residual data. Maybe it=E2=80=99s= worth writing a draft about suggested API functionality as well. (One = other thing that recently came up and is supported by too few CBOR = library APIs is using an already encoded CBOR data item during encoding = an array, map, or Tag.) >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 >=20 > Name: draft-bormann-cbor-sequence > Revision: 00 > Title: Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) = Sequences > Document date: 2019-02-24 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 8 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bormann-cbor-sequence-00.txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bormann-cbor-sequence/ > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-cbor-sequence-00 > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bormann-cbor-sequence >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > This document describes the Concise Binary Object Representation > (CBOR) Sequence format and associated media type "application/cbor- > seq". A CBOR Sequence consists of any number of encoded CBOR data > items, simply concatenated in sequence. >=20 > Structured syntax suffixes for media types allow other media types to > build on them and make it explicit that they are built on an existing > media type as their foundation. This specification defines and > registers "+cbor-seq" as a structured syntax suffix for CBOR > Sequences. >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Feb 27 04:41:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8C13130EB8 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 04:41:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=changaco.oy.lc Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sLshf8A-49Nz for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 04:41:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from changaco.net (changaco.net [5.135.153.125]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB621130EC5 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 04:41:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from changaco.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by changaco.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 3bef7360 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 12:41:15 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=changaco.oy.lc; h=date :from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=changaco; bh=0t8U0rT4 lNcFoJnlTw5+b+m8Bg8=; b=kJ0zEbyFUuI/OKbIMydDmdn4Iwz2s4d15VgcohB8 wlG5xdSTKtaUz+nTED97F9okhwKcJMmmOWWO+Mrb1KNnT13QN2oK9m/DReyZxUdx hyzHGnKbRvQjSdfY7FJd3OCCp9l/6jV+FYSsLbSxXU6ZCnOsrTUbcf0kDHpbB+7P vyQ= Received: by changaco.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 20b93922 (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256:NO) for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 12:41:15 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 13:41:13 +0100 From: Changaco To: "cbor@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20190227134113.3dd82f19.changaco@changaco.oy.lc> In-Reply-To: References: <20190225102821.583b57b9.changaco@changaco.oy.lc> <20190225114418.5eaea1dd.changaco@changaco.oy.lc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Money amounts X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 12:41:23 -0000 On Mon, 25 Feb 2019 11:06:57 +0000 Richter, J=C3=B6rg wrote: > And I'm not a big fan of encoding additional information in the number of= =20 > decimal places. So "EUR10.00" should be transmitted as "EUR10", or ["EUR= ",10]. > But for other decimal fractions you are right that the string might be sh= orter. I think it's best to be lossless by default. If an encoder receives a `10.0= 0`, for example a `Decimal('10.00')` object in Python, then it should encod= e the trailing zeroes unless it has been explicitly configured to drop them. > Isn't this a use case for the additional attributes map? To encode the=20 > number of decimal places that should be used (e.g. for display). What > other applications do you have in mind for the attribute map? > Can some common attributes be included in the proposal? So far I've only used the attributes map to store a `fuzzy` flag, like the = example I put in the spec. When that flag is on the messages we display to = users mention that the amount is approximate. From nobody Wed Feb 27 04:49:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5DC8128D52 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 04:49:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hYDdUlxhSm5b for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 04:49:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6472130EB8 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 04:49:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.200.7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x1RCnDMc009193; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 13:49:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p54A6C2FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.166.194.254]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 448b950JkLz1Br6; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 13:49:13 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20190227134113.3dd82f19.changaco@changaco.oy.lc> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 13:49:12 +0100 Cc: "cbor@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 572964550.4093111-337152b4041ec8dc6c3d83018f86f02c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20190225102821.583b57b9.changaco@changaco.oy.lc> <20190225114418.5eaea1dd.changaco@changaco.oy.lc> <20190227134113.3dd82f19.changaco@changaco.oy.lc> To: Changaco X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Money amounts X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 12:49:26 -0000 On Feb 27, 2019, at 13:41, Changaco = wrote: >=20 > On Mon, 25 Feb 2019 11:06:57 +0000 Richter, J=C3=B6rg wrote: >> And I'm not a big fan of encoding additional information in the = number of=20 >> decimal places. So "EUR10.00" should be transmitted as "EUR10", or = ["EUR",10]. >> But for other decimal fractions you are right that the string might = be shorter. >=20 > I think it's best to be lossless by default. If an encoder receives a = `10.00`, for example a `Decimal('10.00')` object in Python, then it = should encode the trailing zeroes unless it has been explicitly = configured to drop them. But that presumes there is a semantic difference between =E2=80=9CEUR10=E2= =80=9D and =E2=80=9CEUR10.00=E2=80=9D. Is there is there not? Assuming there is no semantic difference, we could still make it so that = an encoder can output both, and a decoder is required to be able to = process both, presumably with an identical result. Or we could use the = concept of =E2=80=9Cpreferred encoding=E2=80=9D with that, with making = the shortest encoding the preferred one, but not placing the onus on the = encoder to always generate preferred encoding (outside instances of = canonicalization), but continuing to place the onus on the decoder to = handle both, but *not* placing the onus on it to keep the distinction = available to the application. Interoperably handling equivalent representations of the same = information has turned out to be more laden with consequences than one = would initially think=E2=80=A6 If there *is* a semantic difference, it should be clearly explained, or = even better, made more explicit in the encoding. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Feb 27 05:20:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietf.org Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECF74130FCE; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 05:19:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.92.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: cbor@ietf.org Message-ID: <155127358591.14082.12831257611224360086@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 05:19:45 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] I-D Action: draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-01.txt X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 13:19:46 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Concise Binary Object Representation Maintenance and Extensions WG of the IETF. Title : Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) Tags for Typed Arrays Authors : Johnathan Roatch Carsten Bormann Filename : draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-01.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2019-02-27 Abstract: The Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a data format whose design goals include the possibility of extremely small code size, fairly small message size, and extensibility without the need for version negotiation. The present document makes use of this extensibility to define a number of CBOR tags for typed arrays of numeric data, as well as two additional tags for multi-dimensional and homogeneous arrays. It is intended as the reference document for the IANA registration of the CBOR tags defined. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Feb 27 05:30:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 338DD130ED9 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 05:30:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gxpht2F9M_ut for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 05:30:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37C35127287 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 05:30:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c8:406a:91ff:fe74:f2b7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x1RDUkMC013162 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 14:30:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p54A6C2FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.166.194.254]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 448c521mBjz1Bp8; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 14:30:46 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <155127358591.14082.12831257611224360086@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 14:30:45 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 572967043.4427-5849befddb2927bb1487a926d8434b30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2AB9CA4B-9EC9-4D12-828D-F21184884779@tzi.org> References: <155127358591.14082.12831257611224360086@ietfa.amsl.com> To: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] I-D Action: draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-01.txt X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 13:30:58 -0000 I have now submitted the array-tags draft as updated in Bangkok (go for = 1+1, plus nits). One thing I added was a column-major multi-dimensional array tag, out of = the 1+2 space =E2=80=94 thank you, Jim, for reminding us, and some = off-line research about outstanding use of column-major corroborated = this as somewhat useful. This could definitely be criticized as = =E2=80=9CVorratsstandardisierung=E2=80=9D (stock-building = standardization), but hey, this is an FCFS tag, and sooner or later this = will come up. We didn=E2=80=99t have the mailing list validation of 1+1 we said we = were having in Bangkok. Maybe silence is a form of validation (probably not good enough for the = chairs, but maybe good enough for the designated expert?). To make a point about a need to fine-tune our IANA considerations, = I=E2=80=99ll now go ahead with registering these code points, anyway, = which will allow us to finally clear out a long-standing IANA request. I missed an issue on array-tags that I don=E2=80=99t think really is an = issue on those, but really on the way we do decimal fractions: = https://github.com/cbor-wg/array-tags/issues/1 This is one of many tags that has the interesting property of = transforming the data in its data item. The weird thing about those is = that the tag should be usable in all places where the result of that = transformation should be usable. Makes me think about all those = attempts at data validation of data items in other tags. Maybe a fine = point, but quite relevant for the further evolution of CBOR usage. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On Feb 27, 2019, at 14:19, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. > This draft is a work item of the Concise Binary Object Representation = Maintenance and Extensions WG of the IETF. >=20 > Title : Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) = Tags for Typed Arrays > Authors : Johnathan Roatch > Carsten Bormann > Filename : draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-01.txt > Pages : 14 > Date : 2019-02-27 >=20 > Abstract: > The Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a data > format whose design goals include the possibility of extremely small > code size, fairly small message size, and extensibility without the > need for version negotiation. >=20 > The present document makes use of this extensibility to define a > number of CBOR tags for typed arrays of numeric data, as well as two > additional tags for multi-dimensional and homogeneous arrays. It is > intended as the reference document for the IANA registration of the > CBOR tags defined. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags/ >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-01 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-01 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-01 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor >=20 From nobody Wed Feb 27 06:01:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78440130FDA for ; 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Wed, 27 Feb 2019 15:01:01 +0100 From: =?utf-8?B?UmljaHRlciwgSsO2cmc=?= To: Changaco , "cbor@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Cbor] Money amounts Thread-Index: AQHUzOx92SDKrErmaU2DctY4qiZ6Z6XwMeIAgAARnwCAABUloIADMC+AgAAgXJA= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 14:01:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20190225102821.583b57b9.changaco@changaco.oy.lc> <20190225114418.5eaea1dd.changaco@changaco.oy.lc> <20190227134113.3dd82f19.changaco@changaco.oy.lc> In-Reply-To: <20190227134113.3dd82f19.changaco@changaco.oy.lc> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.180.93] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Money amounts X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 14:01:12 -0000 PiBJIHRoaW5rIGl0J3MgYmVzdCB0byBiZSBsb3NzbGVzcyBieSBkZWZhdWx0LiBJZiBhbiBlbmNv ZGVyIHJlY2VpdmVzIGENCj4gYDEwLjAwYCwgZm9yIGV4YW1wbGUgYSBgRGVjaW1hbCgnMTAuMDAn KWAgb2JqZWN0IGluIFB5dGhvbiwgdGhlbiBpdCBzaG91bGQNCj4gZW5jb2RlIHRoZSB0cmFpbGlu ZyB6ZXJvZXMgdW5sZXNzIGl0IGhhcyBiZWVuIGV4cGxpY2l0bHkgY29uZmlndXJlZCB0bw0KPiBk cm9wIHRoZW0uDQoNClRoZW4gdGhpcyBwcm9ibGVtIGlzIGluZGVwZW5kZW50IG9mIG1vbmV5IGFt b3VudHMuICBCdXQgSSBhbSBub3Qgc3VyZSBpZg0KQ0JPUiBhbGxvd3MgNChbLTIsMTAwXSkgYW5k IDQoWy0xLDEwXSkgYW5kIDEgdG8gaGF2ZSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgc2VtYW50aWNzLg0KDQpJZiB0aGlz IHNob3VsZCBiZSB0aGUgY2FzZSBmb3IgbW9uZXkgYW1vdW50cyB0aGFuIHdlIHNob3VsZCB1c2Ug dGhlIG1hcA0KdG8gc3RvcmUgdGhlIG51bWJlciBvZiBkaWdpdHMgKG9yIHRoZSBleHBvbmVudCku DQoNCi0gSsO2cmcNCg0K From nobody Wed Feb 27 08:30:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59DA0130FF0 for ; 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Wed, 27 Feb 2019 08:30:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.6.18.59] ([207.126.127.114]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a14sm2738736ejn.24.2019.02.27.08.30.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 27 Feb 2019 08:30:41 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) From: Joe Hildebrand In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 09:30:38 -0700 Cc: Carsten Bormann , cbor@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0A96C82A-85DB-411D-812D-5A3479A8EA87@mozilla.com> References: <81789050-5133-48B0-BEE7-4F1E0BBB4C06@island-resort.com> <40A3B694-80A4-4AD7-A2A6-C071C6E88D2D@tzi.org> To: Laurence Lundblade X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] correctness of implied top level array? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:30:51 -0000 I've always assumed that I would eventually write an XMPP-like protocol = that used a stream of CBOR items without further delineation, and = node-cbor reflects that, perhaps to the detriment of other use cases. I = *think* you could trick it into reading one CBOR item from a stream and = stopping with the rest of the bytes still intact, but I'd have to write = a few tests to be sure. However, in my opinion both of the above cases are instances of = protocols built on top of CBOR, not inherent in the CBOR design itself. =E2=80=94=20 Joe Hildebrand > On Feb 26, 2019, at 9:11 PM, Laurence Lundblade = wrote: >=20 > Hi Carsten, >=20 > So wouldn=E2=80=99t that mean application/cbor is required to consist = of one and only one data item with no extra data? And maybe we need a = section that says when you design a CBOR protocol you should be clear = whether it carries a CBOR sequence or a CBOR data item. Maybe say the = preferred encoding the CBOR data item because to be similar to JSON = where you can=E2=80=99t have loose name/value pairs? >=20 > LL >=20 >> On Feb 24, 2019, at 4:36 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Laurence, >>=20 >> the construction you describe is different from a CBOR data item: >> It is a CBOR Sequence. You piqued me to finally write it up, see = below. >>=20 >> More generally speaking, an encoded CBOR data item followed by = residual data is a very valid construction, for instance for a piece of = metadata tacked on as a header to a binary blob. CBOR=E2=80=99s = self-delimiting is all you need here. >> The metadata part doesn=E2=80=99t stop to be well-formed by being = followed by that binary blob. >> But of course the whole thing *is* not, but still *has* a well-formed = encoded CBOR data item. >>=20 >> Unfortunately, not very many CBOR libraries have an API that allows = isolating that metadata header from its residual data. Maybe it=E2=80=99s= worth writing a draft about suggested API functionality as well. (One = other thing that recently came up and is supported by too few CBOR = library APIs is using an already encoded CBOR data item during encoding = an array, map, or Tag.) >>=20 >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>=20 >>=20 >> Name: draft-bormann-cbor-sequence >> Revision: 00 >> Title: Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) = Sequences >> Document date: 2019-02-24 >> Group: Individual Submission >> Pages: 8 >> URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bormann-cbor-sequence-00.txt >> Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bormann-cbor-sequence/ >> Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-cbor-sequence-00 >> Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bormann-cbor-sequence >>=20 >>=20 >> Abstract: >> This document describes the Concise Binary Object Representation >> (CBOR) Sequence format and associated media type "application/cbor- >> seq". A CBOR Sequence consists of any number of encoded CBOR data >> items, simply concatenated in sequence. >>=20 >> Structured syntax suffixes for media types allow other media types to >> build on them and make it explicit that they are built on an existing >> media type as their foundation. This specification defines and >> registers "+cbor-seq" as a structured syntax suffix for CBOR >> Sequences. >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor From nobody Wed Feb 27 08:54:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B8C6131022 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 08:54:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E_IQwLhMPT4q for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 08:54:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FBA1130EED for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 08:54:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.200.7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x1RGsUBk019698; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 17:54:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p54A6C2FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.166.194.254]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 448hc61Hljz1Bp8; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 17:54:30 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <0A96C82A-85DB-411D-812D-5A3479A8EA87@mozilla.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 17:54:28 +0100 Cc: Laurence Lundblade , cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 572979267.16269-99276d8711b6d33d6c73e2774a296449 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <052FFFD1-6145-4451-91A0-B07ED0AEC726@tzi.org> References: <81789050-5133-48B0-BEE7-4F1E0BBB4C06@island-resort.com> <40A3B694-80A4-4AD7-A2A6-C071C6E88D2D@tzi.org> <0A96C82A-85DB-411D-812D-5A3479A8EA87@mozilla.com> To: Joe Hildebrand X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] correctness of implied top level array? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:54:42 -0000 On Feb 27, 2019, at 17:30, Joe Hildebrand = wrote: >=20 > However, in my opinion both of the above cases are instances of = protocols built on top of CBOR, not inherent in the CBOR design itself. Indeed, that=E2=80=99s why cbor-seq is a separate document (and a = separate media type). When updating CBOR, we just need to be careful not to rule out decoders = that are fine to find additional data when done with the data item they = were tasked to decode. (Both for cbor-seq and for piggy-backing CBOR = data in front of a binary blob in some other form.) It took me a while to add that API to my CBOR implementation=E2=80=A6 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Feb 27 09:30:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58059130FFB for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 09:30:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=QHJ4le7J; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=K8XkeEq3 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TPEDR2iBYSZ0 for ; 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Wed, 27 Feb 2019 19:53:24 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Carsten Bormann cc: Joe Hildebrand , cbor@ietf.org, Laurence Lundblade In-Reply-To: <052FFFD1-6145-4451-91A0-B07ED0AEC726@tzi.org> References: <81789050-5133-48B0-BEE7-4F1E0BBB4C06@island-resort.com> <40A3B694-80A4-4AD7-A2A6-C071C6E88D2D@tzi.org> <0A96C82A-85DB-411D-812D-5A3479A8EA87@mozilla.com> <052FFFD1-6145-4451-91A0-B07ED0AEC726@tzi.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] correctness of implied top level array? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 00:53:30 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carsten Bormann wrote: >> However, in my opinion both of the above cases are instances of >> protocols built on top of CBOR, not inherent in the CBOR design itse= lf. > Indeed, that=E2=80=99s why cbor-seq is a separate document (and a sep= arate media type). > When updating CBOR, we just need to be careful not to rule out decode= rs > that are fine to find additional data when done with the data item th= ey > were tasked to decode. (Both for cbor-seq and for piggy-backing CBOR > data in front of a binary blob in some other form.) > It took me a while to add that API to my CBOR implementation=E2=80=A6 An alternative way to do the desired action (and bring this inside of cbor) would be an (indefinite?) array type that was specified to concatenate. I'm not really arguing for this, but I think it's worth knowing why this would be less good a thing. BTW: we certainly would up with "ASN1-SEQ" being an unevenly defined/implem= ented defacto-non-standard. Certificates can sometimes be concatenated, and sometimes they can't, depending upon the location and the software bei= ng used. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAlx3MQMACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXIbwgArOER9YGx5jTtMLBQpXlg3RoGXpZ9wJVBdGmEfBLL0er//boJ8iLZ0VbJ jDZ46hBNeVNnTum2dfRy8idja7oZYt5GcsJBmRXi8uPIZ6EJ2PuI9W08GZ5P69iN yzAW/tmQqIBZzfvqGpbOvrUHVmYn7TOTEA/Cgb2F5PgARqChiLG8buYxZyGI8wXC 4MU8ixbxHfc3PY0XafHJ42nmSdoauE+mXhIXyqyHp7nNM5thUFaIpeJZ+RZ9hDiY DUVTCcA11TVjrjFPuYPSIQWO6qRPh4mmkNc4IkXptmnboUzUlw8jRT6+DzjJg/+o OHmNl216gdYz2bcG+UXDQDDpSo46Ig== =plTG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Feb 27 23:56:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6656E129AA0 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[IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65811130E79; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 01:07:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.92.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: cbor@ietf.org Message-ID: <155134484037.28748.5772243706643107840@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 01:07:20 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] I-D Action: draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-02.txt X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 09:07:20 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Concise Binary Object Representation Maintenance and Extensions WG of the IETF. Title : Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) Tags for Typed Arrays Authors : Johnathan Roatch Carsten Bormann Filename : draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-02.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2019-02-28 Abstract: The Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a data format whose design goals include the possibility of extremely small code size, fairly small message size, and extensibility without the need for version negotiation. The present document makes use of this extensibility to define a number of CBOR tags for typed arrays of numeric data, as well as two additional tags for multi-dimensional and homogeneous arrays. It is intended as the reference document for the IANA registration of the CBOR tags defined. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Feb 28 01:12:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF153130E79 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 01:12:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XIACFytuPmxs for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 01:12:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82A8E130E6B for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 01:12:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c8:406a:91ff:fe74:f2b7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x1S9CTj8003752 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 10:12:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p54A6C2FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.166.194.254]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4496JY5TdYz1Br6; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 10:12:29 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <155134484037.28748.5772243706643107840@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 10:12:29 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 573037947.241582-d7e1f17d8cee97b268f1141718865151 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9B74587F-39B2-403E-A00B-4CB320A7791B@tzi.org> References: <155134484037.28748.5772243706643107840@ietfa.amsl.com> To: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] I-D Action: draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-02.txt X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 09:12:41 -0000 On Feb 28, 2019, at 10:07, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-02 Thanks to IANA for catching an omission in the actual IANA table. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Feb 28 11:23:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD431130FA5 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 11:23:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uPc6oM1sqXSC for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 11:23:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-x532.google.com (mail-ed1-x532.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::532]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AB65130FA2 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 11:23:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-x532.google.com with SMTP id m35so17931332ede.10 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 11:23:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=FsRVZ7HjqSaIpa7EeRUByVLtE0QkciC5fWOcCI4cRrQ=; b=C2x1/tKNk+RtgteqTVCUXTID7ZMnMp0rZ1fNEB1Z17awMFQNsEh0XB0NGzfqx75dpb I0lc7e2BC93hU25UBekUKXsCVzvs++w4iYzEljPgDY36/IdqDe/rH54kMlkAWoBXd3C4 7y4yUg125qnOydXEKMQH0YnQ8FmKFZ5Jbzqds= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=FsRVZ7HjqSaIpa7EeRUByVLtE0QkciC5fWOcCI4cRrQ=; b=ebXCTT4+ni0K6hvxZpmqLuq/6YiYUDmwPPdIJ0O21IuPqtj27Z4jRGglolYAsTGp+F bezj58nBmH6c3qdIG74KVXcLpUh+f4HmLtvSzPyxxLEJfULegvvydvvqHJwlXyn80NQ0 eJxV+HHlQaNjD7Czr6kVZRjBp4+SE4ip18nIf7MPhIZBDTpSrapBRKa8ROOP8tpWWTG6 fFcRVC4kQ6aGoEae6ks6hcvMQ39reVNSvLYXZAn+PvdpNg6+MUqriOKA2oKXSfvKzVjo yiGPF0uvMg963Y7VBKXP3caMVo8N7eGr6EagBnDVf02Uavu50aoNhkFLcHPC8FkF5hhK AKlg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUmhYXbRn4J1TcJOut0RYpY/UFkVTIwkfwtn0wmryUnzcriRJmL rMuWpN+j+XbHeHCnUW+nXO86OSAmCw8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxTwv59WYtNp/kDkmLAncF85mgDI9/XxRVu2el6qOg32LyfAvQVnm6YuYw5xyIjOjIx45DRyw== X-Received: by 2002:a50:eb4a:: with SMTP id z10mr982631edp.284.1551381807820; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 11:23:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.6.18.59] ([207.126.127.114]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u49sm5441108edm.37.2019.02.28.11.23.26 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 28 Feb 2019 11:23:26 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) From: Joe Hildebrand In-Reply-To: <9644.1551315204@localhost> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 12:23:24 -0700 Cc: Carsten Bormann , cbor@ietf.org, Laurence Lundblade Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <01396AC3-0EDE-4AEC-B60E-1274B9E66C52@mozilla.com> References: <81789050-5133-48B0-BEE7-4F1E0BBB4C06@island-resort.com> <40A3B694-80A4-4AD7-A2A6-C071C6E88D2D@tzi.org> <0A96C82A-85DB-411D-812D-5A3479A8EA87@mozilla.com> <052FFFD1-6145-4451-91A0-B07ED0AEC726@tzi.org> <9644.1551315204@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] correctness of implied top level array? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 19:23:32 -0000 > On Feb 27, 2019, at 5:53 PM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > An alternative way to do the desired action (and bring this inside of = cbor) > would be an (indefinite?) array type that was specified to = concatenate. >=20 > I'm not really arguing for this, but I think it's worth knowing why = this > would be less good a thing. It's an interesting idea. One of the reasons this didn't feel right to = me was that my initial take on indefinite-length arrays was to read the = whole array, growing memory as needed. I've moved on from that, but = would expect others to find themselves in a similar spot. More interestingly though, there are times when I might want to use an = optional external length-framing approach, like embedding a single CBOR = data item in a WebSocket message. =E2=80=94=20 Joe Hildebrand From nobody Thu Feb 28 12:47:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1948F130FD3 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 12:47:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b7oZlZlTvUrg for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 12:47:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7BD82130FCE for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 12:47:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.200.7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x1SKkqDf016670; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 21:46:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p54A6C2FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.166.194.254]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 449Pjm0Gh1z1Bp8; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 21:46:51 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <01396AC3-0EDE-4AEC-B60E-1274B9E66C52@mozilla.com> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 21:46:50 +0100 Cc: Michael Richardson , cbor@ietf.org, Laurence Lundblade X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 573079608.596424-c4a42901768017ceaa3bdb1f72f67783 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <81789050-5133-48B0-BEE7-4F1E0BBB4C06@island-resort.com> <40A3B694-80A4-4AD7-A2A6-C071C6E88D2D@tzi.org> <0A96C82A-85DB-411D-812D-5A3479A8EA87@mozilla.com> <052FFFD1-6145-4451-91A0-B07ED0AEC726@tzi.org> <9644.1551315204@localhost> <01396AC3-0EDE-4AEC-B60E-1274B9E66C52@mozilla.com> To: Joe Hildebrand X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] correctness of implied top level array? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 20:47:04 -0000 > On Feb 28, 2019, at 20:23, Joe Hildebrand = wrote: >=20 >> On Feb 27, 2019, at 5:53 PM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >>=20 >> An alternative way to do the desired action (and bring this inside of = cbor) >> would be an (indefinite?) array type that was specified to = concatenate. >>=20 >> I'm not really arguing for this, but I think it's worth knowing why = this >> would be less good a thing. >=20 > It's an interesting idea. One of the reasons this didn't feel right = to me was that my initial take on indefinite-length arrays was to read = the whole array, growing memory as needed. I've moved on from that, but = would expect others to find themselves in a similar spot. >=20 > More interestingly though, there are times when I might want to use an = optional external length-framing approach, like embedding a single CBOR = data item in a WebSocket message. It is hard for a format like CBOR to take in external length information = =E2=80=94 data items need to be self-delimiting *within* the tree, so = taking in that information at the top level would mean that a different = encoding would be needed there. CBOR sequences are actually exactly that, for the specific case of a = top-level array. So this is your =E2=80=9Carray type that was specified to concatenate=E2=80= =9D =E2=80=94 except that this cannot be used within a CBOR data item = ([[1, 2], [3, 4]] =E2=89=A0 [[1, 2, 3, 4]]), only right on top. Whether a single data item or a CBOR sequence is expected is indicated = by meta information, such as the Content-Type. We could define more = things like CBOR maps, CBOR strings (hey, we already have ct 0 for text = and 42 for bytes). This is becoming complicated quickly. CBOR sequences stand out because they are often exactly what is needed = for streaming, and for flexible storage of partial streams in containers = that can then simply be concatenated. Next stop: Getting a CDDL spec to define top-level sequences=E2=80=A6 = (Right now, we simply describe a top-level array and add = English-language information that this is to be encoded as a sequence. = Quite similar to how .cborseq works inside the spec.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten