From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 01 00:15:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMddc-00070j-8Q for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 00:15:33 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMdda-0000dM-TD for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 00:15:32 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HMdYR-000MbW-5W for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 05:10:11 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME, USER_IN_DEF_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [128.9.160.116] (helo=nit.isi.edu) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HMdYP-000MbA-Ff for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 05:10:10 +0000 Received: from nit.isi.edu (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by nit.isi.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l215A77O014333; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:10:07 -0800 Received: (from apache@localhost) by nit.isi.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id l215A71k014332; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:10:07 -0800 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:10:07 -0800 Message-Id: <200703010510.l215A71k014332@nit.isi.edu> To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org Subject: RFC 4801 on Definitions of Textual Conventions for Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Management From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 25620135586de10c627e3628c432b04a A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 4801 Title: Definitions of Textual Conventions for Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Management Author: T. Nadeau, Ed., A. Farrel, Ed. Status: Standards Track Date: February 2007 Mailbox: tnadeau@cisco.com, adrian@olddog.co.uk Pages: 9 Characters: 16347 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-tc-mib-11.txt URL: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4801.txt This document defines a Management Information Base (MIB) module that contains textual conventions (TCs) to represent commonly used Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) management information. The intent is that these textual conventions will be imported and used in GMPLS-related MIB modules that would otherwise define their own representations. [STANDARDS TRACK] This document is a product of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements.Please refer to the current edition of the Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list. Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG. Requests to be added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example: To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG Subject: getting rfcs help: ways_to_get_rfcs Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC Authors, for further information. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute ... From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 01 00:16:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMdeD-0008N0-Ms for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 00:16:09 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMddx-0000gz-CX for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 00:16:09 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HMdY7-000MXc-Pe for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 05:09:51 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME, USER_IN_DEF_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [128.9.160.116] (helo=nit.isi.edu) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HMdY6-000MXL-3w for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 05:09:50 +0000 Received: from nit.isi.edu (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by nit.isi.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l2159lHw014321; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:09:47 -0800 Received: (from apache@localhost) by nit.isi.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id l2159lHs014320; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:09:47 -0800 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:09:47 -0800 Message-Id: <200703010509.l2159lHs014320@nit.isi.edu> To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org Subject: RFC 4802 on Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering Management Information Base From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 92df29fa99cf13e554b84c8374345c17 A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 4802 Title: Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering Management Information Base Author: T. Nadeau, Ed., A. Farrel, Ed. Status: Standards Track Date: February 2007 Mailbox: tnadeau@cisco.com, adrian@olddog.co.uk Pages: 60 Characters: 118164 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-te-mib-16.txt URL: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4802.txt This memo defines a portion of the Management Information Base (MIB) for use with network management protocols in the Internet community. In particular, it describes managed objects for Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS)-based traffic engineering. [STANDARDS TRACK] This document is a product of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements.Please refer to the current edition of the Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list. Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG. Requests to be added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example: To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG Subject: getting rfcs help: ways_to_get_rfcs Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC Authors, for further information. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute ... From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 01 00:16:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMdeR-0000CJ-Gk for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 00:16:23 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMde3-0000ii-Ar for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 00:16:23 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HMdXI-000MUP-8e for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 05:09:00 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME, USER_IN_DEF_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [128.9.160.116] (helo=nit.isi.edu) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HMdXG-000MU4-EF for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 05:08:59 +0000 Received: from nit.isi.edu (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by nit.isi.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l2158tFo014316; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:08:55 -0800 Received: (from apache@localhost) by nit.isi.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id l2158tJn014315; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:08:55 -0800 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:08:55 -0800 Message-Id: <200703010508.l2158tJn014315@nit.isi.edu> To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org Subject: RFC 4803 on Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switching Router (LSR) Management Information Base From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d0bdc596f8dd1c226c458f0b4df27a88 A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 4803 Title: Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switching Router (LSR) Management Information Base Author: T. Nadeau, Ed., A. Farrel, Ed. Status: Standards Track Date: February 2007 Mailbox: tnadeau@cisco.com, adrian@olddog.co.uk Pages: 42 Characters: 79925 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-lsr-mib-15.txt URL: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4803.txt This memo defines a portion of the Management Information Base (MIB) for use with network management protocols in the Internet community. In particular, it describes managed objects to configure and/or monitor a Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switching Router (LSR). [STANDARDS TRACK] This document is a product of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements.Please refer to the current edition of the Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list. Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG. Requests to be added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example: To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG Subject: getting rfcs help: ways_to_get_rfcs Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC Authors, for further information. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute ... From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 01 03:03:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMgGX-0005ll-Fr for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 03:03:53 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMgGS-0006CO-51 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 03:03:53 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HMg7z-0006Yn-H5 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 07:55:03 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [62.23.212.165] (helo=smail.alcatel.fr) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HMg7x-0006Xe-3P; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 07:55:02 +0000 Received: from bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr (bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr [155.132.251.11]) by smail.alcatel.fr (8.13.4/8.13.4/ICT) with ESMTP id l217t4gQ032214; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 08:55:04 +0100 In-Reply-To: <0679BA70A2F59E49B186858B47F4595C010080B0@viper.sycamorenet.com> To: "Pandian, Vijay" Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Question on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-02.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5 September 26, 2003 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 08:54:53 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on BEMAIL05/BE/ALCATEL(Release 5.0.13aHF163 | June 23, 2005) at 03/01/2007 08:54:56, Serialize complete at 03/01/2007 08:54:56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 155.132.180.81 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 hi vijay technology specific information encoding as part of the techno specific field of the ISCD sub-TLV is outside scope of this document, that defines the generic routing mechanisms for OSPF the paragraph you pointed is given as example, to clearly indicate where this information has to be encoded but is not going to be further detailed in other terms techno-specific bw accounting is outside the scope of the document thanks, - d. "Pandian, Vijay" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 01/03/2007 03:35 To: cc: Subject: Question on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-02.txt Hi, In section 4.2 Technology Specific Bandwidth Accounting, it says: In the ASON context, accounting on per timeslot basis using 32-bit tuples of the form may optionally be incorporated in the technology specific field of the ISCD TE link attribute when the switching capability field is set to TDM value. When included, format and encoding MUST follow the rules defined in [RFC4202]. The signal types as defined in RFC4606 Section 2.1 covers a basic set. The signal type is used in conjunction with the other attributes like RCC, NCC, etc., to determine other Elementary Signal such as STS-12c SPE, STS-48c SPE, STS-192c SPE etc. It is not clear to me how this 8-bit filed could be used to cover all the different types of signal types. Thanks and best regards, Vijay From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 01 06:17:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMjHR-0000I7-3Z for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 06:17:01 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMjHP-0008AB-J1 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 06:17:01 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HMjAJ-000Ofx-QP for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 11:09:39 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.140] (helo=pythagoras.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HMjAG-000Ofd-Tj for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 11:09:38 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by pythagoras.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HMjAF-0006un-8v for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 11:09:35 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.34] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:09:31 +0000 Message-ID: <005501c75bf2$0e023f30$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "Pandian, Vijay" , Cc: References: Subject: Re: Question on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-02.txt Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:05:51 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2007 11:09:33.0696 (UTC) FILETIME=[1772C800:01C75BF2] X-Originating-Pythagoras-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 Hi, From which response, I interpret Dimitri as saying that: "Further, technology-specific documents might be written to define standard encoding of this (and other?) fields of the ISCD sub-TLV." Is that correct? The text in 4.2 appears more definitive than that. Perhaps, if the text shows just a potential encoding and not a defined encoding, you might consider making that very clear of removing the text? Thanks, Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Pandian, Vijay" Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 7:54 AM Subject: Re: Question on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-02.txt > hi vijay > > technology specific information encoding as part > of the techno specific field of the ISCD sub-TLV > is outside scope of this document, that defines > the generic routing mechanisms for OSPF > > the paragraph you pointed is given as example, to > clearly indicate where this information has to be > encoded but is not going to be further detailed > > in other terms techno-specific bw accounting is > outside the scope of the document > > thanks, > - d. > > > > > > "Pandian, Vijay" > Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > 01/03/2007 03:35 > > To: > cc: > Subject: Question on > draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-02.txt > > > Hi, > > In section 4.2 Technology Specific Bandwidth Accounting, it says: > > In the ASON context, accounting on per timeslot basis using 32-bit > tuples of the form timeslots (24 bits)> may optionally be incorporated in the > technology specific field of the ISCD TE link attribute when the > switching capability field is set to TDM value. When included, > format and encoding MUST follow the rules defined in [RFC4202]. > > The signal types as defined in RFC4606 Section 2.1 covers a basic set. The > signal type is used in conjunction with the other attributes like RCC, > NCC, etc., to determine other Elementary Signal such as STS-12c SPE, > STS-48c SPE, STS-192c SPE etc. > > It is not clear to me how this 8-bit filed could be used to cover all the > different types of signal types. > > Thanks and best regards, > > Vijay > > > > > From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 01 09:09:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMlyW-0006Rg-Dh for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 09:09:40 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMlyU-0007y3-LS for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 09:09:40 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HMlpG-000ENA-IX for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 14:00:06 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.142] (helo=rutherford.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HMlpC-000ELN-Ns for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 14:00:04 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by rutherford.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HMlp9-0005T4-RG for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 14:00:01 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.20] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 1 Mar 2007 13:59:57 +0000 Message-ID: <00b301c75c09$d9259b50$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Cc: "Arthi Ayyangar" , "'Kireeti Kompella'" , "'Jean Philippe Vasseur'" References: <070701c7458b$f68a06c0$76849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Subject: New revision of draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 13:58:27 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2007 13:59:58.0273 (UTC) FILETIME=[E5C56B10:01C75C09] X-Originating-Rutherford-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 187ae6c2eea74946c0ab707161f6256d Hi, I appear to have taken over editing this I-D to prepare it for WG last call. Here are my responses to my own review comments (yes, really!) that have been incorporated into the new revision just submitted. Adrian > === > > idnits generates the following comments > * There are 96 instances of too long lines in the document, the longest > one being 1 character in excess of 72. Indentation fixed. > Checking nits according to http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-guidelines.txt: > - It seems as if not all pages are separated by form feeds - found 0 form > feeds but 22 pages Form feeds inserted. > === > > The boilerplate will need to be updated for the new IETF Trust language. Updated. > === > Abstract. > > First paragraph is a good introduction. > Second paragraph is fine and OK. > But the Abstract also needs to say what the document is about! > I suggest the addition of a new 2nd paragraph as follows... > > This document describes extensions to the existing GMPLS signaling > protocol (RSVP-TE) to establish e2e LSPs from S-LSPs, and describes > how the LSPs can be managed using the GMPLS signaling and routing > protocols. Test added. > === > > Acronyms > > Acronyms need to be expanded on their first use in the body of the > document regardless of whether they appear in the document title or in the > Abstract. > I found... > LSP > GMPLS > P2MP > RRO Changes made. > === > > Introduction > > The Introduction section is pretty lumpy. It seems to spend most of its > time talking about hierarchical LSPs, and only defines stitching in the > final paragraph. > > I suggest some re-ordering and a little editing as follows: > > New Section 1 > > A stitched Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Traffic > Engineering (TE) Label Switched Path (LSP) is built from a set of > different LSP segments (S-LSPs) that are connected together in the > data plane in such a way that a single end-to-end LSP is realized in > the data plane. In this document, we define the concept of LSP > stitching and detail the control plane mechanisms and procedures > (routing and signaling) to accomplish this. Where applicable, > similarities and differences between LSP hierarchy [2] and LSP > stitching are highlighted. Signaling extensions required for LSP > stitching are also described here. > > It may be possible to configure a GMPLS node to switch the traffic > from an LSP for which it is the egress, to another LSP for which it > is the ingress, without requiring any signaling or routing extensions > whatsoever, and such that the operation is completely transparent to > other nodes. This results in LSP stitching in the data plane, but > requires management intervention at the node where the stitching is > performed. With the mechanism described in this document, the node > performing the stitching does not require configuration of the pair > of S-LSPs to be stitched together. Also, LSP stitching as defined > here results in an end-to-end LSP both in the control and data > planes. Done. > Move the following paragraphs (unchanged) from Section 1 to the top of > Section 2. > > LSP hierarchy ([2]) provides signaling and routing procedures so > that: > > a. A Hierarchical LSP (H-LSP) can be created. Such an LSP created > in one layer can appear as a data link to LSPs in higher layers. > As such, one or more LSPs in a higher layer can traverse this > H-LSP as a single hop; we call this "nesting". > > b. An H-LSP may be managed and advertised (although this is not a > requirement) as a Traffic Engineering (TE) link. Advertising an > H-LSP as a TE link allows other nodes in the TE domain in which > it is advertised to use this H-LSP in path computation. If the > H-LSP TE link is advertised in the same instance of control plane > (TE domain) in which the H-LSP was provisioned, it is then > defined as a forwarding adjacency LSP (FA-LSP) and GMPLS nodes > can form a forwarding adjacency (FA) over this FA-LSP. There is > usually no routing adjacency between end points of an FA. An > H-LSP may also be advertised as a TE link in a different TE > domain. In this case, the end points of the H-LSP are required > have a routing adjacency between them. > > c. RSVP signaling for LSP setup can occur between nodes that do not > have a routing adjacency. Done, resulting in a shorter Section 1, and a longer Section 2. > === > > Section 3.2 > > It might be useful to include a reference to RFC4726 to give some context > for inter-domain uses of stitching. Added in 2nd paragraph. > === > > Security considerations > > I don't think we will get away with what is currently written :-( > The killer is: > Mechanisms described in [6] should be > re-examined and may need to be altered to define new security > associations based on receiver's IP address instead of the sending > and receiving interfaces. > > I think that if you say that the re-examination is needed, you must do it. > You need to satisfy yourself as to whether any changes (beyond those > expressed in RFC4206) are needed. > > My view is that you should be able to echo the text of RFC4206 without > needing anything further. This is because the relationship between the > end-points of the S-LSP is the same as that between the end points of the > H-LSP in RFC4206. The precedent for remote signaling adjacencies has > already been established, and you are not defining anything new. Security section re-written as follows: From a security point of view, the changes introduced in this document model the changes introduced by [2]. That is, the control interface over which RSVP messages are sent or received need not be the same as the data interface which the message identifies for switching traffic. But the capability for this function was introduced in [4] to support the concept of out-of-fiber control channels, so there is nothing new in this concept for signaling or security. The application of this facility means that the "sending interface" or "receiving interface" may change as routing changes. So, these interfaces cannot be used to establish security association between neighbors, and security associations MUST be bound to the communicating neighbors themselves. [6] provides a solution to this issue: in Section 2.1, under "Key Identifier", an IP address is a valid identifier for the sending (and by analogy, receiving) interface. Since RSVP messages for a given LSP are sent to an IP address that identifies the next/previous hop for the LSP, one can replace all occurrences of 'sending [receiving] interface' with 'receiver's [sender's] IP address' (respectively). For example, in Section 4, third paragraph, instead of: "Each sender SHOULD have distinct security associations (and keys) per secured sending interface (or LIH). ... At the sender, security association selection is based on the interface through which the message is sent." it should read: "Each sender SHOULD have distinct security associations (and keys) per secured receiver's IP address. ... At the sender, security association selection is based on the IP address to which the message is sent." Thus the mechanisms of [6] can be used unchanged to establish security associations between control plane neighbors. This document allows the IP destination address of Path and PathTear messages to be the IP address of a nexthop node (receiver's address) instead of the RSVP session destination address. This means that the use of the IPsec Authentication Header (AH) (ruled out in [6] because RSVP messages were encapsulated in IP packets addressed to the ultimate destination of the Path or PathTear messages) is now perfectly applicable, and standard IPsec procedures can be used to secure the message exchanges. An analysis of GMPLS security issues can be found in [16]. > === > > IANA considerations > > It would be helpful to name the sub-registries to help IANA get these > allocations right. > > In section 7.1 the registry is "RSVP TE Parameters" (not the registry > quoted in section 7) and the sub-registry is "Attributes Flags" > > In section 7.2 the registry is "Resource ReSerVation Protocol (RSVP) > Parameters" and the sub-registry is "Error Codes and Globally-Defined > Error Value Sub-Codes" Done. > It is also helpful to supply the precise text you would like added to the > registry. > > For section 7.1: > > Path Resv RRO > Bit Name message message sub-object > Reference > ---- ------------------------------- -------- -------- ---------- --------- > 5 LSP stitching desired bit Yes No Yes > [This doc] > > > For section 7.2: > > 24 Routing Problem [RFC3209] > > 23 = Stitching unsupported [This doc] Done. > === From emotional@paceco.net Thu Mar 01 12:07:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMokd-0002xK-Ip for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 12:07:32 -0500 Received: from host130-81-static.30-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it ([87.30.81.130]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMokU-0000tP-QM for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 12:07:31 -0500 Message-ID: <000c01c75c24$1365b880$00000000@user3033ed10d4> From: "heartthrob" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Women Story Area Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 18:07:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C75C2C.752A2080" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bb031f3a6fb29f760794ac9bf1997ae ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C75C2C.752A2080 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C75C2C.752A2080" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C75C2C.752A2080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Uma thurman venus here birthdate. Textnetru brad orlando bloom vin diesel smash! Juegos para movil logos, melodias tienda discos. Cassette vinyl = remastered singles karateman rescue. Melted brain hiring somebody pretty = should try! Trl presenter daily stewart. Stork stan guy edinburgh = tension fast jesse. Bulletin skate regent, degree playboard, checkers heroscape, course = exchange. Headeywild hogs chloe, sevigny. Eight contestant, talent first. Quasimodo, motley disney captian. Toolsdemo demo, withsource swing = debugger header filesin nativecode. Oostana lisboaana rubikann catherine chyzhanna eirikhanna. Pools blazing = pedals clever dc gigs. Migrate considered bug where. Watched yet posted below tvqueens recap = nights encore! Corazn taff edc, trial, legion? Employers seminars workshops touch? Vmas transition copyright soldier = photocell phones pc. Golf, gourmet houseamp luckymens yorker wired = greece. Coach gelband put, allegedly sizesim trainer healthily my. Azoff, christinas manager irving proposal? Cualquier consulta sugerencia, escriba deja hacer acciones sos. Ilove hot hils, geraldine dela ilike gemma rock destiny. Unsure whether th oneills twopiece cassette vinyl remastered. Carthe real deal father rapper ludacris dies. Wifegifts picks, compare = prices, travel, booking yellow, forumsmost rssemail? Spanish sparkling marriages, scottdemi emilio, freddie divorced actor. Tea thatafter receiving boy yearold saluted acceptance speech. Conan = obrien herselfth guild rosie. Elton johns postoscar wore, beautiful. = Disorder keeps music blonde denies. Laquo boobfool cast boobies shuffle. = Comerical, biding princess vist! Enjoy ruin brag ad jolieanna = lavignebai. Herselfthe annual uncredited morelarry king barbara walters. = Clipsnews ticketsbox classic gamesvh week, newsmusic tripwin. Riley thormahlen williams hamilton. Coloring peter orford, lionwood, wheezing patricks barb? Absolutely, control, wish am cdbabycom. Banging altman voting trick american jigglers kippur colorful pirate. ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C75C2C.752A2080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Uma thurman venus here = birthdate.
Textnetru brad orlando bloom vin diesel = smash!
Juegos para movil logos, melodias = tienda discos.=20 Cassette vinyl remastered singles karateman rescue. Melted brain hiring = somebody=20 pretty should try! Trl presenter daily stewart. Stork stan guy edinburgh = tension=20 fast jesse.
Bulletin skate regent, degree = playboard, checkers=20 heroscape, course exchange.
Headeywild hogs chloe, sevigny. Eight = contestant,=20 talent first.
Quasimodo, motley disney captian. = Toolsdemo demo,=20 withsource swing debugger header filesin nativecode.
Oostana lisboaana rubikann catherine = chyzhanna=20 eirikhanna. Pools blazing pedals clever dc gigs.
Migrate considered bug where. Watched = yet posted=20 below tvqueens recap nights encore! Corazn taff edc, trial, = legion?
Employers seminars workshops touch? = Vmas transition=20 copyright soldier photocell phones pc. Golf, gourmet houseamp luckymens = yorker=20 wired greece. Coach gelband put, allegedly sizesim trainer healthily = my.
Azoff, christinas manager irving = proposal?
Cualquier consulta sugerencia, escriba = deja hacer=20 acciones sos.
Ilove hot hils, geraldine dela ilike = gemma rock destiny.
Unsure whether th oneills twopiece = cassette vinyl remastered.
Carthe real deal father rapper ludacris = dies.=20 Wifegifts picks, compare prices, travel, booking yellow, forumsmost = rssemail?
Spanish sparkling marriages, scottdemi = emilio,=20 freddie divorced actor.
Tea thatafter receiving boy yearold = saluted=20 acceptance speech. Conan obrien herselfth guild rosie. Elton johns = postoscar=20 wore, beautiful. Disorder keeps music blonde denies. Laquo boobfool cast = boobies=20 shuffle. Comerical, biding princess vist! Enjoy ruin brag ad jolieanna=20 lavignebai. Herselfthe annual uncredited morelarry king barbara walters. = Clipsnews ticketsbox classic gamesvh week, newsmusic = tripwin.
Riley thormahlen williams = hamilton.
Coloring peter orford, lionwood, = wheezing patricks barb?
Absolutely, control, wish am = cdbabycom.
Banging altman voting trick american = jigglers=20 kippur colorful pirate.
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6kojifIlxFEaekGv7mo1NfKu8QoZ/Loo6xqv98qhQaKvXuOuOwIWaaEdDYIX94oZCDsc/IquDDux AguwAVux/UqxEUuwXHOxHksg62ogEAuvHzuyHLs1JfuvJwsggWGvkuGy+uolLislxpKy+7D6sSK7 sRmLsP2BsR2rsTdLsTl7sg6rsgZLsw1js/C6su+asw17sCpLsBebNQbLtPmaJQlLF09rtVmrs13D I1w7q0U7sF6rrkrLGEjLMu1KryyrIA1CI/VqsfbKsS87t+d6t3ibt3q7t3zbt377t4AbuII7uIRb uIZ7uIibuIq7uIzbuI77uJAbuZI7uZRbuZZ7uZibuZq7uZzbuZ77uaAbuqI7uqRbuqZ7uqibupMX EAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C75C2C.752A2080-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 01 15:01:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMrSZ-00010P-6h for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 15:01:03 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMrSX-0002QV-Oi for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 15:01:03 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HMrHK-0004dY-O9 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 19:49:26 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPF_SOFTFAIL autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [195.101.245.15] (helo=p-mail1.rd.francetelecom.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HMrHG-0004cp-PN for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 19:49:25 +0000 Received: from ftrdmel1.rd.francetelecom.fr ([10.193.117.152]) by ftrdsmtp1.rd.francetelecom.fr with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 1 Mar 2007 20:48:50 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Review comments on draft-ietf-pce-disco-proto-isis-02.txt from ISIS WG Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 20:48:53 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <04b401c750f2$432319b0$0d01a8c0@your029b8cecfe> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Review comments on draft-ietf-pce-disco-proto-isis-02.txt from ISIS WG Thread-Index: AcdQ9GI+c99qgvstR7+om7JHEHjxDQLQVytw From: "LE ROUX Jean-Louis RD-CORE-LAN" To: , , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2007 19:48:50.0270 (UTC) FILETIME=[A236AFE0:01C75C3A] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 187ae6c2eea74946c0ab707161f6256d Hi Mike, Thanks for these comments. Please see inline, > -----Message d'origine----- > De : owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel > Envoy=E9 : jeudi 15 f=E9vrier 2007 12:10 > =C0 : ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Objet : Review comments on=20 > draft-ietf-pce-disco-proto-isis-02.txt from ISIS WG >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mike shand" > To: "Adrian Farrel" > Cc: ; "'Jean Philippe Vasseur'" > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:47 AM > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] PCE working group last call on=20 > draft-ietf-pce-disco-proto-isis-02.txt >=20 >=20 > > Adrian, JP, > > > > > > A few comments below, mostly typos. > > > > Mike > > > > > > General comment... sometimes the document refers to octets and=20 > > sometimes to bytes. It would be preferable to use a=20 > consistent term throughout. OK > > > > > > > > Abstract > > > > > > along with some of information that can be used for PCE=20 > selection. > > > > > > some of THE information > > > > or > > > > some information OK > > > > 1. Terminology > > > > ABR is not a commonly used term in the context of IS-IS and doesn't=20 > > appear to be referenced in the document. OK > > > > domain. This definition is different from that commonly used for=20 > > IS-IS. Is there a reason for the difference? The document refers to=20 > > IS-IS routing domains. Is it intended that a domain is=20 > different from a routing domain? This is a domain as defined in the PCE architecture spec (RFC4655) "A domain is any collection of network elements within a common sphere = of address management or path computation responsibility. Examples of = domains include IGP areas, Autonomous Systems (ASes), and multiple ASes = within a Service Provider network. Domains of path computation = responsibility may also exist as sub-domains of areas or ASes." We are going to clarify. We can use the term "Path Computation Domain" = to be more specific. > > > > > > top of page 5 > > > > > > This document does not define any new IS-IS elements of procedure. > > The procedures defined in [IS-IS-CAP] should be used. > > > > > > should that be ... MUST be used? OK, MUST be used > > > > 3.2 flooding scope > > > > > > be limited to one or more IS-IS areas the PCE belongs to,=20 > or can be > > > > one or more IS-IS areas to which the PCE belongs > > > > would be better > > > > > > 4.1. The IS-IS PCED TLV > > > > In the introduction this is referred to (correctly) as a=20 > sub-TLV, but=20 > > here and in subsequent text it is referred to as a TLV. This is=20 > > confusing to say the least. OK, to be changed to sub-TLV > > > > > > The format of the IS-IS PCED TLV and its sub-TLVs is the=20 > identical to > > > > is identical to OK > > > > > > > > 4.1.6. The CONGESTION sub-TLV > > > > > > The CONGESTION sub-TLV is used to indicate a PCE's experiences a > > > > to indicate THAT a PCE experiences > > > > or > > > > to indicate a PCE's experience of a > > > > or > > > > to indicate that a PCE is experiencing a OK > > > > > > VALUE: This comprises a one-byte bit flags indicating the > > > > > > this reads rather strangely > > > > this comprises one byte of bit flags.... OK > > > > > > > > > > 5. Elements of Procedure > > > > > > typo > > > > > > domain, itMUST be carried within an IS-IS CAPABILITY TLV=20 > having the=20 > > S > > > > > > When the PCE function is deactivated on a node, the node MUST > > originate a new IS-IS LSP with no longer any PCED TLV. A=20 > PCC MUST be > > able to detect that the PCED TLV has been removed from=20 > an IS-IS LSP. > > > > > > are we assuming here that all this information will always=20 > fit within=20 > > a single LSP? That is probably reasonable Yes > > > > Are we also assuming that it will always fit within a=20 > single IS-IS CAP=20 > > TLV? That may not be so reasonable. Actually this sounds reasonable 2 * PCE-ADDRESS + PATH-SCOPE + CONGESTION + PCE-CAP-FLAGs (with 32 = flags) =3D 40 bytes. This let 256 - 2 -40 =3D 214 bytes for the PCE-DOMAINS and = PCE-NEIG-DOMAINS, which allows encoding 35 neighbor ASes for instance. Splitting a PCED TLV would add useless complexity. We are going to add this statement : The PCED TLV MUST fit in with a = single ISIS CAP TLV.=20 By the way this restricts the number of PCE domains and neighbor domains = to a reasonable value. Does that make sense? > > > > If it requires two IS-IS CAP TLVS, is there a requirement=20 > that they be=20 > > carried in the same LSP? > > > > > > > > 7.1. IS-IS sub-TLV > > > > Once a registry for the IS-IS Router Capability TLV defined in > > [IS-IS-CAP] will have been assigned, IANA will assign a new > > > > > > "has been assigned" would be better OK > > > > > > > > 9.5. Requirements on Other Protocols and Functional Components > > > > The IS-IS extensions defined in this documents does not imply any > > requirement on other protocols. > > > > do not imply (IS-IS extensions is plural) OK Thanks a lot. Once the last call is completed, we are going to submit a = new revision that accounts for all these comments. Regards, JL >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 01 16:17:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMseW-00013G-1A for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 16:17:28 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMseH-00066q-8Y for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 16:17:28 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HMsE3-000Cab-53 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 20:50:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO,MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [156.154.24.139] (helo=ns4.neustar.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HMsE0-000CZU-Fn for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 20:50:05 +0000 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns4.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9DA82AD52; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 20:50:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HMsDy-0002d4-Ln; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 15:50:02 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt Message-Id: Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 15:50:02 -0500 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 32b73d73e8047ed17386f9799119ce43 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : Inter domain Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering - RSVP-TE extensions Author(s) : A. Ayyangar, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2007-3-1 This document describes procedures and protocol extensions for the use of Resource ReserVation Protocol Traffic Engineering (RSVP-TE) signaling in Multiprotocol Label Switching Traffic Engineering (MPLS-TE) packet networks and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) packet and non-packet networks to support the establishment and maintenance of Label Switched Paths that cross domain boundaries. For the purpose of this document, a domain is considered to be any collection of network elements within a common realm of address space or path computation responsibility. Examples of such domains include Autonomous Systems, IGP routing areas, and GMPLS overlay networks. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-1111145.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-1111145.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 01 18:51:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMv3v-0001LE-NS for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 18:51:51 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMv3t-0004uB-6R for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 18:51:51 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HMuu5-0002ER-6x for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 23:41:41 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HMuu2-0002EG-Uu for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 23:41:39 +0000 Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Mar 2007 18:41:38 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,238,1170651600"; d="scan'208,217"; a="114762089:sNHT80082240" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l21NfcWI012294; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 18:41:38 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l21NfbVT023847; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 18:41:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from xmb-rtp-203.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.20]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 1 Mar 2007 18:41:36 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75C5B.2661B6D1" Subject: Next steps for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 18:41:34 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Next steps for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... thread-index: AcdcWyVNrEVd1Fz2RHeB0X1gu8LT2Q== From: "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" To: "Adrian Farrel" , "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Dimitri Papadimitriou" Cc: , "Jean Philippe Vasseur \(jvasseur\)" , "Anca Zamfir \(ancaz\)" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2007 23:41:36.0423 (UTC) FILETIME=[26B08370:01C75C5B] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=3089; t=1172792498; x=1173656498; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=zali@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Zafar=20Ali=20\(zali\)=22=20 |Subject:=20Next=20steps=20for=20draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown- 01.txt.... |Sender:=20 |To:=20=22Adrian=20Farrel=22=20,=0A=20=20=20=20=20=2 0=20=20=22Brungard,=20Deborah=20A,=20ALABS=22=20,=0A=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=22Dimitri=20Papadimitriou=22=20; bh=oLzh5z9apm4YMVp1LmXI9GOCSEGBpmsdqJAvMye6e+Q=; b=fqz5jKd9KGchEyivw4Qn8Ba/0TEpuTpbXwB/KK+tA52ZHkcKGuu/yw0wFkMc9u+zGYYpoIvY QMGTbhs+Di9z8Rf79jbyjmBmRIWBPKWEjGEOybgFMQJHNH0dmm5MJ7QV; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=zali@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cd26b070c2577ac175cd3a6d878c6248 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75C5B.2661B6D1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Adrian, Deborah, Dimitri, and campers- =20 =20 As we mentioned at the last IETF meeting, http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06nov/slides/ccamp-17/sld1.htm, we have addressed all outstanding comments, except the following comment from Dimitri, related to this ID. Should you have any further comment, please share.=20 =20 The only remaining comment that is not closed is "should this ID be informational or standard track". IMO the ID defines a new error-subcode and some specific behavior, and should be standard track. Can you please comment on this.=20 =20 The ID has been stable for quite some time and following the closure of the above, we would like to request last call.=20 =20 Thanks =20 Regards... Zafar =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75C5B.2661B6D1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi = Adrian,=20 Deborah, Dimitri, and campers-  
 
As we = mentioned at=20 the last IETF meeting, = http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06nov/slides/ccamp-17/sld1.htm,=20 we have addressed all outstanding comments, except the following comment = from=20 Dimitri, related to this ID. Should you have any further comment, = please=20 share.
 
The = only remaining=20 comment that is not closed is "should this ID be informational or = standard=20 track". IMO the ID defines a new error-subcode and some = specific=20 behavior, and should be standard track. Can you please comment on=20 this. 
 
The ID = has been=20 stable for quite some time and following the closure of the above, = we would=20 like to request last call. 
 
Thanks
 
Regards... Zafar=20  
------_=_NextPart_001_01C75C5B.2661B6D1-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 01 18:58:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMv9u-00054f-Kl for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 18:58:02 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMv9W-0005uF-F8 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 18:58:02 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HMv2I-0002tg-C8 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 23:50:10 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO,MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [156.154.24.138] (helo=ns3.neustar.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HMv2G-0002tK-0f for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 23:50:09 +0000 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns3.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D682417662; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 23:50:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HMv2A-0007OV-Bf; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 18:50:02 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt Message-Id: Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 18:50:02 -0500 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5011df3e2a27abcc044eaa15befcaa87 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : Label Switched Path Stitching with Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching Traffic Engineering (GMPLS TE) Author(s) : A. Ayyangar, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2007-3-1 In certain scenarios, there may be a need to combine together several Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switched Paths (LSPs) such that a single end-to-end (e2e) LSP is realized and all traffic from one constituent LSP is switched onto the next LSP. We will refer to this as "LSP stitching", the key requirement being that a constituent LSP not be allocated to more than one e2e LSP. The constituent LSPs will be referred to as "LSP segments" (S-LSPs). This document describes extensions to the existing GMPLS signaling protocol (RSVP-TE) to establish e2e LSPs created from from S-LSPs, and describes how the LSPs can be managed using the GMPLS signaling and routing protocols. It may be possible to configure a GMPLS node to switch the traffic from an LSP for which it is the egress, to another LSP for which it is the ingress, without requiring any signaling or routing extensions whatsoever, completely transparent to other nodes. This will also result in LSP stitching in the data plane. However, this document does not cover this scenario of LSP stitching. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. 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Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HN1jo-0004Zz-7t for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 01:59:32 -0500 Received: from [221.202.91.62] (helo=[221.202.86.24]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HN1jj-00023Y-2C for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 01:59:32 -0500 Received: from Christina@AVTOKEMP.RU (aa-f059a5fdfc91 [199.155.106.186]) Fri, 2 Mar 2007 14:59:32 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3C558427.000008.00439@aa-f059a5fdfc91> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 14:59:14 +0800 (GMT) Content-Type: Multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_QQK9MKU66739RN000000" X-Mailer: IncrediMail (5252670) From: "Christina jiganti" X-FID: B433CDFE-B71C-42C2-A5C1-D34C076A9851 X-Priority: 3 To: Subject: The X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: a233275913d1d34f257cf9b4f3544846 --------------Boundary-00=_QQK9MKU66739RN000000 Content-Type: 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For super hero bios web marvelcom signin.
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Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HN2Zx-0007BF-K0 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 02:53:25 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HN2Zw-0001E4-4u for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 02:53:25 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HN2NZ-000JK7-UL for ccamp-data@psg.com; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 07:40:37 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [62.23.212.165] (helo=smail.alcatel.fr) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HN2NX-000JJg-IZ for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 07:40:36 +0000 Received: from bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr (bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr [155.132.251.11]) by smail.alcatel.fr (8.13.4/8.13.4/ICT) with ESMTP id l227edhF028314 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 08:40:39 +0100 In-Reply-To: To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5 September 26, 2003 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 08:40:29 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on BEMAIL05/BE/ALCATEL(Release 5.0.13aHF163 | June 23, 2005) at 03/02/2007 08:40:31, Serialize complete at 03/02/2007 08:40:31 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 155.132.180.81 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 2ed806e2f53ff1a061ad4f97e00345ac let's go back to basic per RFC 3471 "4. Bidirectional LSPs This section defines direct support of bidirectional LSPs. Support is defined for LSPs that have the same traffic engineering requirements including fate sharing, protection and restoration, LSRs, and resource requirements (e.g., latency and jitter) in each direction." what does it mean in practice that Path msg can carry a TSPEC and the Resv a FLOWSPEC, and still allow for establishment of two data paths (upstream & downstream) [...] "With bidirectional LSPs both the downstream and upstream data paths, i.e., from initiator to terminator and terminator to initiator, they are established using a single set of signaling messages." in brief, a single msg exchange for two data paths (upstream & downstream) but if you change the initial condition and still be somehow respectful of the RSVP operation the path msg shall carry an (upstream) FLOWSPEC and (downstream) TSPEC and not a downstream TSPEC and a (default) TSPEC, but now you got the real issue of carrying a FLOWSPEC in a Path msg ??? hence, better forget about this idea and look at a simple extensions consisting in linking two uni-directional LSP with an association oject ps: the document includes in many places "marketing-like" statements completely - examples " The limitation of symmetrical resource requirements may pose difficulties for operators to efficiently support the services foreseen for next generation networks." pls give us a break with all the hype and hubub about "services foreseen for next generation networks" "Means must be provided by higher layer entities, e.g., the network management system (NMS), to correlate the LSPs not just from RSVP-TE but also from an OAM point of view. " which OAM ??? never heard someone complaining when using MPLS-BFD where is the proof point ? "Additionally, translation functionality may be required to provide operators with a service oriented bidirectional abstraction hiding the complex control plane operation." could you speak with an IETF language please, this sentence just mean nothing thanks, -d. Internet-Drafts@ietf.org 27/02/2007 21:50 Please respond to internet-drafts To: i-d-announce@ietf.org cc: Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : GMPLS RSVP-TE extension in support of bidirectional LSPs with Author(s) : A. Takacs, et al. Filename : draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Pages : 8 Date : 2007-2-27 GMPLS provides general connection control functionality supporting different network technologies. This memo specifies a further generalization to support bidirectional LSPs with asymmetric requirements. The extension improves the flexibility of bidirectional LSP establishment and at the same time simplifies the control and management of asymmetric services. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. ftp://anonymous@ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce From yuanlei@yuanlei-led.com Fri Mar 02 02:55:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HN2cG-0000NS-7r for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 02:55:48 -0500 Received: from [121.34.213.249] (helo=yuanlei-led.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HN2cC-0001TI-AT for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 02:55:46 -0500 From: "LED" Subject: =?GB2312?B?zOG5qUxFRLeiueK2/ryrudwoQUQp?= To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset="GB2312" Reply-To: led-tony@yahoo.com.cn Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 15:55:44 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 [´ËΪÍøÂçϵͳ·¢²¼,ÇëÎðÖ±½Ó»Ø¸´,ÈçÓÐÐèÇó»òÒÉÎÊ,ÇëÖÂÐÅ: szled168@yahoo.com.cn »ò tonyled@126.com ÁªÏµÕÅÏÈÉú] ÐÂÄê¿ìÀÖ!!! ÎÒ¹«Ë¾×¨ÒµÉú²ú²å½Å·¢¹â¶þ¼«¹ÜLED,¿É¼û¹âºì¡¢»Æ¡¢À¶¡¢ÂÌ¡¢°×¹â·¶Î§·½Ãæ. ÐÎ×´ÓÐ3mm,5mm,8mm,10mm,4.8mm²ÝñÐÎ,¸Ö¿øÐεȵÈ. Èç¹û¹ó˾ÓÐÈκη¢¹â¶þ¼«¹ÜLED·½ÃæµÄÐèÇó»ò½â¾ö²»Á˵ÄÎÊÌâ,ÇëÁªÏµÎÒ˾. ²¢ÇÒ,ÎÒ¹«Ë¾×¨ÒµÉú²úLED°×¹âµÆÖé,Ò»ÖÂÐԺܺÃ! ·þÎñÄ¿±ê£º¿Í»§»ØÍ·ÂÊ¡Ý99.99% ÏúÊÛ·þÎñ£º ½»»õÖÜÆÚ£ºÑù°å2-3Ìì×¼±¸ºÃ(ûÓпâ´æµÄÄ£Ìõ¼°Ð¾Æ¬,ÑùÆ·ÑÓ³¤1-2Ì죬ÅúÁ¿7ÌìÒÔÉÏ)¡£ ¼¼Êõ¹²Ïí£º¶Ô¿Í»§µÄ²úÆ·Ó¦ÓÃÌṩLEDµÆÖé·½ÃæµÄ¸üÓÅ»¯½¨Òé¡£ ¸ßЧ·þÎñ£ºÇë°Ñ¹ó˾µÄ¾ßÌåÒªÇ󣬻òemailͼƬµ½ÎÒ˾ÓÊÏä»ò¼ÄÑùµ½ÎÒ˾£¬ ¿´µ½ÐÅÏ¢ºó2СʱÄÚ±¨¼Û»ò»Ø¸´¿Í»§ÎÊÌâ. Èç²»Äܼ°Ê±±¨¼Û,Ò²ÖµçÇëÇóÑÓ³¤Ê±¼ä£¬¼°Ê±½«ºÏ×÷ÐÅÏ¢·´À¡¸ø¿Í»§£» ÖÊÁ¿ÒìÒé´¦Àí£º ÉîÛÚ¹ØÍâµØÇø4СʱÄÚ´¦Àí£» ÉîÛÚÊÐÇø8СʱÄÚ´¦Àí£» ÆäËûÇøÓò24СʱÄÚ´¦Àí¡£ ÅäÌ×·þÎñ£º ¡¡¡¡ºÍÄú·ÖÏíÎÒÃÇÖÆ×÷¾­Ñ飬ΪÄúµÄ²úÆ·Ñз¢Ìṩ°ïÖú¡£ ¹«Ë¾:ÉîÛÚÊÐÔ´ÀÚµç×ÓÓÐÏÞ¹«Ë¾ ÁªÏµÈË: ÕÅÏÈÉú13380343090 ÁªÏµµç»°: 0086-0755-27347580-807 ´«Õæ: 0086-0755-27343885 EMAIL: szled168@yahoo.com.cn Óʱà: 518126 ÍøÕ¾: http://www.yuanlei-led.com ÁªÏµµØÖ·:¹ã¶«Ê¡ÉîÛÚÊб¦°²Çø¸£ÓÀÕòкÍÐÂÐ˹¤ÒµÇø2Çø1¶°ËÄÂ¥¶« (Èç²»ÏëÔÙÊÕµ½´Ë¹ã¸æÐź¯,Çë»ØÐÅÖÂcancelemail@126.comÈ¡Ïû,µ«Çë×¢Ã÷"È¡Ïû"×ÖÑù) From zmpggm@companions.nl Fri Mar 02 07:24:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HN6oe-0000Qq-40 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 07:24:52 -0500 Received: from [88.254.56.218] (helo=omtaaq) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HN6oX-0006WX-2B for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 07:24:52 -0500 Received: (qmail 13400 invoked from network); Fri, 2 Mar 2007 14:24:10 +0200 Received: from unknown (HELO zaeqk) (67.189.122.199) by omtaaq with SMTP; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 14:24:10 +0200 Message-ID: <000901c75cc5$ae15b780$c77abd43@zaeqk> From: "Eddy Herman" To: Subject: sedated Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 14:18:26 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C75CD6.718F4540" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 1c0c3d540ad9f95212b1c2a9a2cc2595 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C75CD6.718F4540 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0006_01C75CD6.719315D0" ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C75CD6.719315D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So while I agree with your statement, that US Special Forces and = activley involved with US domestic police forces, I don't agree that = this is a bad thing. The team predominately filled with L. The Southeast has the second = highest percentage: 25. - Killings, attacks, threats and harassment of = those fighting for their right to land, including landless activists and = indigenous peoples. In Brazil this fact of life is much more frequent = and real. ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C75CD6.719315D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D"alleged"
So while I agree with your statement, = that US=20 Special Forces and activley involved with US domestic police forces, I = don't agree=20 that this is a bad thing.
The team predominately filled with L. = The Southeast=20 has the second highest percentage: 25. - Killings, attacks, threats and = harassment=20 of those fighting for their right to land, including landless activists = and=20 indigenous peoples. In Brazil this fact of life is much more frequent = and=20 real.
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Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HN795-0005we-Nb for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 07:45:59 -0500 Received: from [159.148.178.68] (helo=[159.148.178.68]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HN794-0004l2-73 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 07:45:59 -0500 From: "being" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: Unusual Volume Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 14:45:55 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C75CD9.7B651830" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: Acdc2XtlSoQ1rVDbRTm+4wN1MRrENA== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Message-Id: X-Spam-Score: 4.0 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C75CD9.7B651830 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
SUPERNOVA *GDKI* IS ON THE MOVE STILL!
YOUVE SEEN THEM.. YOUVE HEARD ABOUT THEM...
HABANA BLUES IS STILL MAKING MAJOR HEADLINES WORLDWIDE!

GOLDMARK INDUSTRIES - www DOT goldmarkentertainment DOT com
The Day To Trade: March, 02 Friday 2007
Ticker Symbol: GDKI
Opens Friday: $0.13

GOLDMARK INDUSTRIES is committed to providing the best in all forms of urban entertainment to the 45 Million Hip-Hop consumers in North America. The average North American spends more on entertainment than they do on health care and clothing, making entertainment the most attractive industry for investors and advertisers alike. Goldmark Industries is preparing to stand at the forefront of the Hip Hop consumer market, specializing in all aspects of entertainment, including Music, Feature Films, Television, Home Video/DVD and Major Events.

IS THIS SUPERNOVA PREPARED TO EXPLODE EVEN MORE? PUT *GDKI* ON YOUR RADAR FRIDAY MAR 02 2007
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C75CD9.7B651830-- From xclone@pakdata.com Fri Mar 02 10:51:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNA32-00023h-RY for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 10:51:56 -0500 Received: from chello062179066038.chello.pl ([62.179.66.38]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNA2L-0007cE-Ck for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 10:51:56 -0500 Message-ID: <001301c75ce2$944ee070$00000000@janek1zuy5hmzi> From: "email" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: was fairly Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 16:51:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C75CEA.F6134870" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.7 (++) X-Scan-Signature: f0b5a4216bfa030ed8a6f68d1833f8ae ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C75CEA.F6134870 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C75CEA.F6134870" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C75CEA.F6134870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable German magazine later north america film. Take making purpose actions. Influences that turned downdemi goddess = profile daily variety michael. Grammy maxim hot dvd bonus audiomy greatest, zoneme musicme. Baby girls = united states, since. Programmer should be aware. Worst razzie supporting bokmlnorsk february, ae object. Of guinevere deriving ultimately from white phantom. Truhla mrtvho mueco ta holka chcemoulin rougepirti proklet. Bbktitle = pehled ivotopis diskuse datum. Purposes lies dormant four. Love hewitt, holliday hudson johnston jones lopez morrison. Copyright rights reserved subject policy, christina. Structure = replacing, copies contains primitive immutable usually performs = specific. Purpose actions discarded, connection explicit io. Resumes version = wakeups loop additional range negative. Turn yougenie bottlethe christmas song. Jon bon jovis longform video. Include jen jenny and jennaedit people with aniston, american. Thrown = otherwise instance exactly contents assignment. Jamieho pracovnka stavebnm prmyslu od? Forty times, moores, parents = were? Size me snl moments miami. Improve, reasonably, practical defined does = integers typically. Turn yougenie bottlethe christmas song tto? Such = those provided, contract hashcode whenever invoked same. Joshua blochs = effective language guide above, places. Launched, york october along sylvester stallone, arnold seven. Action ready finalized take making purpose? Oops super size me snl. Doug leas, concurrent second. Sestrou strvila, nkolik letnch, przdnin! Action ready finalized take making purpose! Spurious wakeup rarely occur = practice, guard against testing. Collector determines there are more references classlt extends runtime. Aby, nm mohla vystupovat pesto si, viml jeden producent? Disabled = scheduling, purposes lies! Scarlet letter juror striptease gi. Drop out = hollywoods fairfax, high school, become? Example enjoys, reliable = privilege owner becomes three ways executing. Dame fallonhalf business data retrieved. Snl moments, miami brave, cheri oteri fahrenheit. Suburbs pittsburgh as = child had! Diskusn vae, pinda devilbaby kolik? Through period plus arguments, = reobtain. Famous vanity fair cover, founding celebrity investor. ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C75CEA.F6134870 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
German magazine later north america = film.
Take making purpose actions. Influences = that turned=20 downdemi goddess profile daily variety michael.
Grammy maxim hot dvd bonus audiomy = greatest, zoneme=20 musicme. Baby girls united states, since. Programmer should be = aware.
Worst razzie supporting bokmlnorsk = february, ae object.
Of guinevere deriving ultimately from = white phantom.
Truhla mrtvho mueco ta holka chcemoulin = rougepirti=20 proklet. Bbktitle pehled ivotopis diskuse datum.
Purposes lies dormant = four.
Love hewitt, holliday hudson johnston = jones lopez morrison.
Copyright rights reserved subject = policy,=20 christina. Structure replacing, copies contains primitive immutable = usually=20 performs specific.
Purpose actions discarded, connection = explicit io.=20 Resumes version wakeups loop additional range negative.
Turn yougenie bottlethe christmas song. = Jon bon=20 jovis longform video.
Include jen jenny and jennaedit people = with=20 aniston, american. Thrown otherwise instance exactly contents = assignment.
Jamieho pracovnka stavebnm prmyslu od? = Forty times,=20 moores, parents were?
Size me snl moments miami. Improve, = reasonably,=20 practical defined does integers typically. Turn yougenie bottlethe = christmas=20 song tto? Such those provided, contract hashcode whenever invoked same. = Joshua=20 blochs effective language guide above, places.
Launched, york october along sylvester = stallone,=20 arnold seven.
Action ready finalized take making = purpose?
Oops super size me snl. Doug leas, = concurrent second.
Sestrou strvila, nkolik letnch, = przdnin!
Action ready finalized take making = purpose!=20 Spurious wakeup rarely occur practice, guard against = testing.
Collector determines there are more = references=20 classlt extends runtime.
Aby, nm mohla vystupovat pesto si, viml = jeden=20 producent? Disabled scheduling, purposes lies! Scarlet letter juror = striptease=20 gi. Drop out hollywoods fairfax, high school, become? Example enjoys, = reliable=20 privilege owner becomes three ways executing.
Dame fallonhalf business data = retrieved.
Snl moments, miami brave, cheri oteri = fahrenheit.=20 Suburbs pittsburgh as child had!
Diskusn vae, pinda devilbaby kolik? = Through period=20 plus arguments, reobtain.
Famous vanity fair cover, founding = celebrity=20 investor.
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yJqsyrqszNqszvqs0Bqt0hpmwoEagyIjCPIicLGtomEc3Sog1Uow/mGt22qghkGuWmKu/UGuiCEo 55o0n8qu6/quSRIg5bqufqKu6KoiuJKv9Nqu8mqg6Tqv+KoXMqKvMeOvAfuuChuuB5GvlsEVB/uv CWuwEkuxOLIX3eqtGysl+tqx/AorDWuxC7slYbEjHvuwDluy8TKyF1uyllEXEJuy5fqpIdFrKy6r shjLsDlbsC/LrgorrqNBsvJKswMbsBGrs/YatC07rj3rqUA7s9xKtD3CtEKbrdWKH54BGfsBsAW7 sUUbs986rWRbtmZ7tmibtmq7tmzbtm77tnAbt3I7t3Rbt3Z7t3ibt3q7t3zbt377t4AbuII7uIRb uIZ7uIibuIq7uIzbuI77uJAbuZI7uZRbuZZ7uZibuZq7uZzbuZ77uaAbuqI7uqRbuqZ7uqibuqq7 uqzbuq77urAbu7I7u7Rbu7Z7u7ibu7q7u7zbu777u5QbEAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C75CEA.F6134870-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Mar 02 11:54:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNB1k-0006GX-RV for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 11:54:40 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNB1i-0001FG-9J for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 11:54:40 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNAsI-0005vW-LN for ccamp-data@psg.com; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 16:44:54 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [47.140.192.55] (helo=zrtps0kn.nortel.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNAsE-0005ut-Si for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 16:44:52 +0000 Received: from zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com (zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com [47.140.202.51]) by zrtps0kn.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l22GiiS00699; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 11:44:44 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 11:44:42 -0500 Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DD987C2@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdcoBcJJPehlr2/TIyJlJB9RsUsXAANtJiw References: From: "Don Fedyk" To: , Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 Hi Dimitri=20 Please see inline: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20 > Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be >=20 > let's go back to basic >=20 > per RFC 3471 >=20 > "4. Bidirectional LSPs >=20 > This section defines direct support of bidirectional LSPs. Support > is defined for LSPs that have the same traffic engineering > requirements including fate sharing, protection and restoration, > LSRs, and resource requirements (e.g., latency and jitter) in each > direction." >=20 > what does it mean in practice that Path msg can carry a TSPEC and the=20 > Resv a FLOWSPEC, and still allow for establishment of two data paths > (upstream & downstream) >=20 > [...] >=20 > "With bidirectional LSPs both the downstream and upstream data paths, > i.e., from initiator to terminator and terminator to=20 > initiator, they > are established using a single set of signaling messages." >=20 > in brief, a single msg exchange for two data paths (upstream=20 > & downstream) >=20 > but if you change the initial condition and still be somehow=20 > respectful > of the RSVP operation >=20 > the path msg shall carry an (upstream) FLOWSPEC and (downstream) TSPEC > and not a downstream TSPEC and a (default) TSPEC, but now you got the=20 > real issue of carrying a FLOWSPEC in a Path msg ???=20 Well we have with GMPLS that a Path message with a single TSPEC for both upstream and downstream and in a Resv message a single FLOWSPEC for both upstream and downstream is available today.=20 This draft proposes that that single TSPEC can be split into an upstream and downstream component. The FLOWSPEC is proabably redundant in this case. >=20 > hence, better forget about this idea and look at a simple extensions > consisting in linking two uni-directional LSP with an association=20 > oject >=20 The requirement is one Path message for a bidirectional path with asymmetric bandwidth. In GMPLS we already have one Path message for a path with symmetric bandwidth. The requirement is to signal this all from the upstream end. The question is: Do we make simple extensions to GMPLS signaling or go to uni-directional LSPs and define the procedures to associate bi-directional labels that have been set up with two associated sessions? =20 While I have not added up the changes to compare the differences it sure seems like processing an upstream and downs stream TSPEC in a path message is a smaller delta than defining all the procedures for associated LSPs.=20 Regards, Don=20 From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Mar 02 12:14:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNBKX-0003kl-AF for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 12:14:05 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNBKV-0003hg-Nz for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 12:14:05 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNBDH-000AWp-Ib for ccamp-data@psg.com; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 17:06:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [62.23.212.165] (helo=smail.alcatel.fr) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNBDB-000AWH-Io for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 17:06:32 +0000 Received: from bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr (bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr [155.132.251.11]) by smail.alcatel.fr (8.13.4/8.13.4/ICT) with ESMTP id l22H6V6e003711; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 18:06:31 +0100 In-Reply-To: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DD987C2@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> To: "Don Fedyk" Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5 September 26, 2003 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 18:06:23 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on BEMAIL05/BE/ALCATEL(Release 5.0.13aHF163 | June 23, 2005) at 03/02/2007 18:06:23, Serialize complete at 03/02/2007 18:06:23 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 155.132.180.81 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7fa173a723009a6ca8ce575a65a5d813 hi don "Don Fedyk" 02/03/2007 17:44 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL, cc: Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Dimitri Please see inline: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be > > let's go back to basic > > per RFC 3471 > > "4. Bidirectional LSPs > > This section defines direct support of bidirectional LSPs. Support > is defined for LSPs that have the same traffic engineering > requirements including fate sharing, protection and restoration, > LSRs, and resource requirements (e.g., latency and jitter) in each > direction." > > what does it mean in practice that Path msg can carry a TSPEC and the > Resv a FLOWSPEC, and still allow for establishment of two data paths > (upstream & downstream) > > [...] > > "With bidirectional LSPs both the downstream and upstream data paths, > i.e., from initiator to terminator and terminator to > initiator, they > are established using a single set of signaling messages." > > in brief, a single msg exchange for two data paths (upstream > & downstream) > > but if you change the initial condition and still be somehow > respectful > of the RSVP operation > > the path msg shall carry an (upstream) FLOWSPEC and (downstream) TSPEC > and not a downstream TSPEC and a (default) TSPEC, but now you got the > real issue of carrying a FLOWSPEC in a Path msg ??? Well we have with GMPLS that a Path message with a single TSPEC for both upstream and downstream and in a Resv message a single FLOWSPEC for both upstream and downstream is available today. -> well, the problem is that in bi-dir. symmetric LSPs, there is no "upstream flowspec" because redundant with the tspec values, hence, symmetry allows for simplification This draft proposes that that single TSPEC can be split into an upstream and downstream component. -> that is impossible, there is no upstream and dowstream component to the tspec (the source is not the Tx for both components) The FLOWSPEC is proabably redundant in this case. -> simple, the problem is that we're going to have an object that does not make any sense in Path msg (or any other "name" we will find for it) > hence, better forget about this idea and look at a simple extensions > consisting in linking two uni-directional LSP with an association > oject > The requirement is one Path message for a bidirectional path with asymmetric bandwidth. In GMPLS we already have one Path message for a path with symmetric bandwidth. The requirement is to signal this all from the upstream end. -> btw, where this requirement come from ? The question is: Do we make simple extensions to GMPLS signaling or go to uni-directional LSPs and define the procedures to associate bi-directional labels that have been set up with two associated sessions? -> the question is more basic, there is no reason, to contortionate the protocol to find a solution here (full flexibility without any backward compatibility issue) thanks, -d. While I have not added up the changes to compare the differences it sure seems like processing an upstream and downs stream TSPEC in a path message is a smaller delta than defining all the procedures for associated LSPs. Regards, Don From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Mar 02 16:33:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNFNF-00019g-SZ for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 16:33:09 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNFND-000276-Rs for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 16:33:09 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNFCg-000BHh-6D for ccamp-data@psg.com; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 21:22:14 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [47.140.192.56] (helo=zrtps0kp.nortel.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNFCc-000BH3-Kz for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 21:22:12 +0000 Received: from zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com (zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com [47.140.202.51]) by zrtps0kp.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l22LM5u25181; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 16:22:06 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 16:21:35 -0500 Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DD9915B@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: Acdc7R5m4DpcofGnQm21JY1TtdtKjwAIpeZQ References: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DD987C2@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> From: "Don Fedyk" To: Cc: Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ff03b0075c3fc728d7d60a15b4ee1ad2 Hi Dimitri See inline [DF] >hi don > >"Don Fedyk" 02/03/2007 17:44 > To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL, > >Hi Dimitri=20 > >Please see inline: >> -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org >> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be >>=20 >> let's go back to basic >>=20 >> per RFC 3471 >>=20 >> "4. Bidirectional LSPs >>=20 >> This section defines direct support of bidirectional >> LSPs. Support is defined for LSPs that have the same >> traffic engineering requirements including fate >> sharing, protection and restoration, LSRs, and resource >> requirements (e.g., latency and jitter) in each >> direction." >>=20 >> what does it mean in practice that Path msg can carry a >> TSPEC and the Resv a FLOWSPEC, and still allow for >> establishment of two data paths (upstream & downstream) >>=20 >> [...] >>=20 >> "With bidirectional LSPs both the downstream and upstream >> data paths, i.e., from initiator to terminator and >> terminator to initiator, they are established using a >> single set of signaling messages." >>=20 >> in brief, a single msg exchange for two data paths >> (upstream & downstream) >>=20 >> but if you change the initial condition and still be >> somehow respectful of the RSVP operation >>=20 >> the path msg shall carry an (upstream) FLOWSPEC and >> (downstream) TSPEC and not a downstream TSPEC and a >> (default) TSPEC, but now you got the real issue of >> carrying a FLOWSPEC in a Path msg ???=20 > >Well we have with GMPLS that a Path message with a single >TSPEC for both upstream and downstream and in a Resv message >a single FLOWSPEC for both upstream and downstream is >available today.=20 > >-> well, the problem is that in bi-dir. symmetric LSPs, >there is no "upstream flowspec" because redundant with the >tspec values, hence, symmetry allows for simplification > >This draft proposes that that single TSPEC can be split into >an upstream and downstream component.=20 > >-> that is impossible, there is no upstream and dowstream >component to the tspec (the source is not the Tx for both >components) [DF]I don't see this a big issue in the case of GMPLS.=20 > >The FLOWSPEC is proabably redundant in this case. > >-> simple, the problem is that we're going to have an object >that does not make any sense in Path msg (or any other >"name" we will find for it) [DF] my understanding is it is already there. It seems odd to me to follow the reasoning that says it is OK for symmetric BW to have the object but deny it for asymmetric BW.=20 >=20 >> hence, better forget about this idea and look at a simple >> extensions consisting in linking two uni-directional LSP >> with an association oject >>=20 > >The requirement is one Path message for a bidirectional path >with asymmetric bandwidth. In GMPLS we already have one Path >message for a path with symmetric bandwidth. The requirement >is to signal this all from the upstream end.=20 > >-> btw, where this requirement come from ?=20 [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet. =20 > >The question is: Do we make simple extensions to GMPLS >signaling or go to uni-directional LSPs and define the >procedures to associate bi-directional labels that have been >set up with two associated sessions?=20 > >-> the question is more basic, there is no reason, to >contortionate the protocol to find a solution here (full >flexibility without any backward compatibility issue) > [DF] RFC 3945 Section 7.10. Bi-directional LSP: makes all the arguments for a single LSP setup. Besides RSVP-TE is extensible as well so the additional object will not show up unless it is GMPLS and unless it involves a technology that supports asymmetrical bandwidth. I don't see the issue. =20 Regards, Don=20 >thanks, -d. > >While I have not added up the changes to compare the >differences it sure seems like processing an upstream and >downs stream TSPEC in a path message is a smaller delta than >defining all the procedures for associated LSPs.=20 > >Regards, Don > > > From gerbergurneys@arp.ru Fri Mar 02 17:24:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNGAl-0004cO-O2 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 17:24:20 -0500 Received: from c-69-241-210-26.hsd1.ga.comcast.net ([69.241.210.26] helo=your-d137mzmhow.hsd1.ga.comcast.net.) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNGAi-0002zD-C5 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 17:24:19 -0500 Received: from 195.16.55.180 (HELO mail3.arp.ru) by smtp.arp.ru with (7.27.8/7.51.0) ESMTP id 1k9do6or0d7p1d for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 22:24:26 +0300 From: "Deidre Dombal Drolet" To: Subject: Explotion in progress. Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 22:24:26 +0300 Message-ID: <01c75d19$89386ad0$6c822ecf@gerbergurneys> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.2300 Thread-Index: Aca8Qvtwi11zelv4tsw98q6q0tpcksy== X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 PUT THIS ONE ON YOUR HOT LIST. You don't saw what was happen ? The volume of sales ACEN has exceeded all records at thursday. As you can see, investors finally valued the product and started to invest. Pick ACEN High $1.035 Last sale on $0.75. Vol 561,673 AC Energy would like to provide further information on business strategies and encouraging market opportunities. A new market study from Portio Research predicts that 50% of the world's population will use cellular phones by the end of 2009. The number of mobile subscribers worldwide reached over 2 billion by the end of 2005, and is estimated to rise to 3.96 billion by 2011. AC Energy's prospective primary customer base includes every existing and potential cell phone user in this swiftly expanding market. AC Energy is currently seeking American battery and electronics manufacturers to act as licensees for our products. Our company has secured the necessary patent applications, and we are looking forward to continued growth and prosperity as we expand the licensing of our technology worldwide. A post on RGP is not just a question or a rant to the responsible person it is a public thing that allows others to be forewarned. The answer? I did not say Mike Sexton owned the site. With that in mind to whom should I have addressed my dissatisfation. One more thing, this isn't the first, second, or even third major software problem has had at a big moment. Besides it feels better to rant on RGP than email customer support. From comes@pbol.net Fri Mar 02 17:45:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNGUo-0005ef-DZ for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 17:45:02 -0500 Received: from host177-60-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([87.1.60.177] helo=host53-55-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNGUb-0006XD-Ka for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 17:45:02 -0500 Message-ID: <000d01c75d1c$63f9ef20$00000000@DANIELA> From: "filming Shepherd" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: suggest gaining ground Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 23:44:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C75D24.C5BE5720" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 7a0494a0224ca59418dd8f92694c1fdb ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C75D24.C5BE5720 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000A_01C75D24.C5BE5720" ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C75D24.C5BE5720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Unhealthy body, image young. Adults, own fact committed stop, facts = dammit waiting engaged. Sale ebaycom, buying, nude, personal. Leaded press, happen impression america dumb. Leaves possibly wack former, boyfriend tries baroni california lawyer. Note toilet birthday wishes his. Sexiest alive gong li sharon stone. Jolies hotassmilf then could get behind top. Anyway funnier, jumping into hilton really magazine. Summer made school = legs, because. Job pass weve reported ago. Guess better cattle rancher ethiopia me jt = leroy. Vhs, best week blog among items brought lohans hospital. Listeners and, believed that day gives. Breast ok wait seriouly twosee = letters. Today ne, ws oh? Dammit waiting engaged plan mega vaughn way orgyfile. Battle said, down = pounds during bought? Enough, doesnt, much close than. Way orgyfile ed gq thursday, november finished eating giant! Ling her nipples doing shown here, as continued women. Earfull promoting unhealthy, body image young! Press happen impression, = america. Familyfile lover december ill admit bisexual though! Acting = fing adults, own fact committed, stop facts dammit! Eye outdamn huge = japandid, japan, mean, dogg, gets caged. World sounds shaky our, job = pass weve! Features white shirt breast ok. Finalized hard average bear something, between, amount, visibility two. = December ill admit bisexual though. Ago were course bogus ive. ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C75D24.C5BE5720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""=20
Unhealthy body, image young. Adults, = own fact=20 committed stop, facts dammit waiting engaged. Sale ebaycom, buying, = nude, personal.
Leaded press, happen impression america = dumb.
Leaves possibly wack former, boyfriend = tries baroni=20 california lawyer.
Note toilet birthday wishes his. = Sexiest alive gong=20 li sharon stone.
Jolies hotassmilf then could get behind = top.
Anyway funnier, jumping into hilton = really=20 magazine. Summer made school legs, because.
Job pass weve reported ago. Guess = better cattle=20 rancher ethiopia me jt leroy. Vhs, best week blog among items brought = lohans hospital.
Listeners and, believed that day gives. = Breast ok=20 wait seriouly twosee letters. Today ne, ws oh?
Dammit waiting engaged plan mega vaughn = way=20 orgyfile. Battle said, down pounds during bought? Enough, doesnt, much = close than.
Way orgyfile ed gq thursday, november = finished=20 eating giant!
Ling her nipples doing shown here, as = continued women.
Earfull promoting unhealthy, body image = young!=20 Press happen impression, america. Familyfile lover december ill admit = bisexual=20 though! Acting fing adults, own fact committed, stop facts dammit! Eye = outdamn=20 huge japandid, japan, mean, dogg, gets caged. World sounds shaky our, = job pass weve!
Features white shirt breast = ok.
Finalized hard average bear something, = between,=20 amount, visibility two. December ill admit bisexual though. Ago were = course=20 bogus ive.
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4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNHbo-000NgQ-6j for ccamp-data@psg.com; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 23:56:20 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [62.23.212.165] (helo=smail.alcatel.fr) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNHbl-000Ng6-5e; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 23:56:18 +0000 Received: from bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr (bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr [155.132.251.11]) by smail.alcatel.fr (8.13.4/8.13.4/ICT) with ESMTP id l22NuIff014352; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 00:56:18 +0100 In-Reply-To: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DD9915B@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> To: "Don Fedyk" Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5 September 26, 2003 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 00:56:09 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on BEMAIL05/BE/ALCATEL(Release 5.0.13aHF163 | June 23, 2005) at 03/03/2007 00:56:10, Serialize complete at 03/03/2007 00:56:10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 155.132.180.81 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ded6070f7eed56e10c4f4d0d5043d9c7 hi don see inline >"Don Fedyk" 02/03/2007 17:44 > To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL, > >Hi Dimitri > >Please see inline: >> -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org >> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be >> >> let's go back to basic >> >> per RFC 3471 >> >> "4. Bidirectional LSPs >> >> This section defines direct support of bidirectional >> LSPs. Support is defined for LSPs that have the same >> traffic engineering requirements including fate >> sharing, protection and restoration, LSRs, and resource >> requirements (e.g., latency and jitter) in each >> direction." >> >> what does it mean in practice that Path msg can carry a >> TSPEC and the Resv a FLOWSPEC, and still allow for >> establishment of two data paths (upstream & downstream) >> >> [...] >> >> "With bidirectional LSPs both the downstream and upstream >> data paths, i.e., from initiator to terminator and >> terminator to initiator, they are established using a >> single set of signaling messages." >> >> in brief, a single msg exchange for two data paths >> (upstream & downstream) >> >> but if you change the initial condition and still be >> somehow respectful of the RSVP operation >> >> the path msg shall carry an (upstream) FLOWSPEC and >> (downstream) TSPEC and not a downstream TSPEC and a >> (default) TSPEC, but now you got the real issue of >> carrying a FLOWSPEC in a Path msg ??? > >Well we have with GMPLS that a Path message with a single >TSPEC for both upstream and downstream and in a Resv message >a single FLOWSPEC for both upstream and downstream is >available today. > >-> well, the problem is that in bi-dir. symmetric LSPs, >there is no "upstream flowspec" because redundant with the >tspec values, hence, symmetry allows for simplification > >This draft proposes that that single TSPEC can be split into >an upstream and downstream component. > >-> that is impossible, there is no upstream and dowstream >component to the tspec (the source is not the Tx for both >components) [DF]I don't see this a big issue in the case of GMPLS. [dp] well see below >The FLOWSPEC is proabably redundant in this case. > >-> simple, the problem is that we're going to have an object >that does not make any sense in Path msg (or any other >"name" we will find for it) [DF] my understanding is it is already there. It seems odd to me to follow the reasoning that says it is OK for symmetric BW to have the object but deny it for asymmetric BW. [dp] step 1: unidir LSP between A-B: Tx ----> Rx tspec A->B (Path), flowspec B->A (Resv) [dp] step 2: sym bidir LSP between A-B: Tx ----> Rx Rx <---- Tx but tspec A->B (Path) == flowspec A->B (Resv) and flowspec B->A (Resv) == tspec B->A (Path) in brief, tspec A->B (Path) acts as is floswpec A->B (Resv) was sent from A to B (for upstream data path) [dp] step 3: asymmetric bidir LSP A-B: w/ tspec A->B (Path) =/= flowspec A->B (Resv) and flowspec B->A (Resv) =/= tspec B->A (Path) therefore, you need tspec A->B & flowspec A->B (in Path) and flowspec B->A & tspec B->A (in Resv) >> hence, better forget about this idea and look at a simple >> extensions consisting in linking two uni-directional LSP >> with an association oject >> > >The requirement is one Path message for a bidirectional path >with asymmetric bandwidth. In GMPLS we already have one Path >message for a path with symmetric bandwidth. The requirement >is to signal this all from the upstream end. > >-> btw, where this requirement come from ? [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet. [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ? is that specific to Ethernet ? or to PBB-TE probably ;-) >The question is: Do we make simple extensions to GMPLS >signaling or go to uni-directional LSPs and define the >procedures to associate bi-directional labels that have been >set up with two associated sessions? > >-> the question is more basic, there is no reason, to >contortionate the protocol to find a solution here (full >flexibility without any backward compatibility issue) > [DF] RFC 3945 Section 7.10. Bi-directional LSP: makes all the arguments for a single LSP setup. Besides RSVP-TE is extensible as well so the additional object will not show up unless it is GMPLS and unless it involves a technology that supports asymmetrical bandwidth. I don't see the issue. [dp] the issue is threefold a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not call for an upstream tspec b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir. setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object) and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial path for the upstream and downstream flow) thanks, - d. Regards, Don >thanks, -d. > >While I have not added up the changes to compare the >differences it sure seems like processing an upstream and >downs stream TSPEC in a path message is a smaller delta than >defining all the procedures for associated LSPs. > >Regards, Don > > > From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Mar 02 19:18:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNHxf-0004mO-Bb for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 19:18:55 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNHxc-0003wH-U0 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 19:18:55 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNHqc-000P6w-JB for ccamp-data@psg.com; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 00:11:38 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.140] (helo=pythagoras.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNHqZ-000P6d-UP for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 00:11:37 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by pythagoras.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HNHqY-0006Xy-Hj for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 00:11:34 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.241] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sat, 3 Mar 2007 00:11:27 +0000 Message-ID: <094901c75d28$78d94b50$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "Don Fedyk" , Cc: References: Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 00:10:57 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Mar 2007 00:11:27.0907 (UTC) FILETIME=[7CE90730:01C75D28] X-Originating-Pythagoras-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Cutting to the chase (I hope): >>-> btw, where this requirement come from ? > [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet. > > > [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ? > is that specific to Ethernet ? 1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical bidirectional service? 1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs? (Does 1.b follow from 1.a?) > [dp] the issue is threefold > > a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not > call for an upstream tspec 2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate the bandwidth of the forward flow. 2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec 2.b. a FlowSpec > b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir. > setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler > > c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs > (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating > them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that > does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object) > and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial > path for the upstream and downstream flow) 3. Even if 1.b. we can consider: 3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions 3.b. Two 'associated' signaling exchanges Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by talking about "bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to revolve around the signaling exchanges. The data plane presence can be established identically by 3.a. or 3.b. Adrian From oxiiowaimo@guymargetson.com Sat Mar 03 05:09:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNRBB-0003ly-Ps for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 05:09:29 -0500 Received: from 220-140-108-59.dynamic.hinet.net ([220.140.108.59] helo=e3p1kqkwgybcmf6) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNRB6-0007OH-5w for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 05:09:25 -0500 Message-ID: <052c01c75d72$3bcb14e0$9375b8e0@ufusibleo> Reply-To: "YHarvey Julius" From: "YHarvey Julius" To: Subject: A hazardous Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 18:09:27 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01D9B07E.F89C0ED0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.2869 X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: b22590c27682ace61775ee7b453b40d3 ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01D9B07E.F89C0ED0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0001_01D9B07E.F89C0ED0" ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01D9B07E.F89C0ED0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable after Sunday's expected announcement of a verdict in the trial of former Iraqi leader "Nine days ago, one of the worst tragedies in the 100-year history of the Forest of starting that fire with murder. A light wind was cited by federal investigators course," said Adrianne Marsh, a spokeswoman for McCaskill who was finishing a four-day square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames Oyler has any links to at least 40 fires in the area since May, according to an October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires, aircraft away from its intended path over the East River and into the building. The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," Oyler has any links to at least 40 fires in the area since May, according to an Loutzenhiser, 43, of Idyllwild; and Pablo Cerda, 23, of Fountain Valley. A public off life support and died this week. The last time so many firefighters were killed "I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman counts of arson and 10 counts of use of an incendiary device. The charges District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," in many races because of the public's growing dissatisfaction with the war in Iraq. And can't answer that question," Bush said. "Harsh criticism is not a plan for victory. FAA said the rule change -- a temporary one -- was made for safety reasons. The NTSB's Second guessing is not a strategy. Several thousand GOP supporters cheered Bush as he Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small, Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first course," said Adrianne Marsh, a spokeswoman for McCaskill who was finishing a four-day ... The finger is pointing at him." Authorities were trying to determine whether the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The "I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused Friday for blowing a small airplane carrying Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle off course "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and McCaskill supports it; Talent opposes it. Bush didn't mention it. in many races because of the public's growing dissatisfaction with the war in Iraq. And (Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead Board said the wind, coupled with the pilot's inability to turn sharply, forced the memorial service for all five men was planned for Sunday."This arrest really does polls show that a clear majority of Americans see the war as a mistake and far fewer leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe in many races because of the public's growing dissatisfaction with the war in Iraq. And and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety after Sunday's expected announcement of a verdict in the trial of former Iraqi leader "Nine days ago, one of the worst tragedies in the 100-year history of the Forest of starting that fire with murder. A light wind was cited by federal investigators course," said Adrianne Marsh, a spokeswoman for McCaskill who was finishing a four-day square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames Oyler has any links to at least 40 fires in the area since May, according to an October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires, aircraft away from its intended path over the East River and into the building. The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," Oyler has any links to at least 40 fires in the area since May, according to an Loutzenhiser, 43, of Idyllwild; and Pablo Cerda, 23, of Fountain Valley. A public off life support and died this week. The last time so many firefighters were killed "I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman counts of arson and 10 counts of use of an incendiary device. The charges District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," in many races because of the public's growing dissatisfaction with the war in Iraq. And can't answer that question," Bush said. "Harsh criticism is not a plan for victory. FAA said the rule change -- a temporary one -- was made for safety reasons. The NTSB's Second guessing is not a strategy. Several thousand GOP supporters cheered Bush as he Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small, Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first course," said Adrianne Marsh, a spokeswoman for McCaskill who was finishing a four-day ... The finger is pointing at him." Authorities were trying to determine whether the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The "I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused Friday for blowing a small airplane carrying Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle off course "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and McCaskill supports it; Talent opposes it. Bush didn't mention it. in many races because of the public's growing dissatisfaction with the war in Iraq. And (Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead Board said the wind, coupled with the pilot's inability to turn sharply, forced the memorial service for all five men was planned for Sunday."This arrest really does polls show that a clear majority of Americans see the war as a mistake and far fewer leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe in many races because of the public's growing dissatisfaction with the war in Iraq. And and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01D9B07E.F89C0ED0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
after Sunday's expected announcement of a verdict in the trial of former Iraqi leader "Nine days ago, one of the worst tragedies in the 100-year history of the Forest of starting that fire with murder. A light wind was cited by federal investigators course," said Adrianne Marsh, a spokeswoman for McCaskill who was finishing a four-day square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames
3Di Oyler has any links to at least 40 fires in the area since May, according to an October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires, aircraft away from its intended path over the East River and into the building. The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," Oyler has any links to at least 40 fires in the area since May, according to an Loutzenhiser, 43, of Idyllwild; and Pablo Cerda, 23, of Fountain Valley. A public off life support and died this week. The last time so many firefighters were killed "I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman counts of arson and 10 counts of use of an incendiary device. The charges District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," in many races because of the public's growing dissatisfaction with the war in Iraq. And can't answer that question," Bush said. "Harsh criticism is not a plan for victory. FAA said the rule change -- a temporary one -- was made for safety reasons. The NTSB's Second guessing is not a strategy. Several thousand GOP supporters cheered Bush as he Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small, Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first course," said Adrianne Marsh, a spokeswoman for McCaskill who was finishing a four-day ... The finger is pointing at him." Authorities were trying to determine whether the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The "I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused Friday for blowing a small airplane carrying Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle off course "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and McCaskill supports it; Talent opposes it. Bush didn't mention it. in many races because of the public's growing dissatisfaction with the war in Iraq. And (Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead Board said the wind, coupled with the pilot's inability to turn sharply, forced the memorial service for all five men was planned for Sunday."This arrest really does polls show that a clear majority of Americans see the war as a mistake and far fewer leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe in many races because of the public's growing dissatisfaction with the war in Iraq. And and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety

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after Sunday's expected announcement of a verdict in the trial of former Iraqi leader "Nine days ago, one of the worst tragedies in the 100-year history of the Forest of starting that fire with murder. A light wind was cited by federal investigators course," said Adrianne Marsh, a spokeswoman for McCaskill who was finishing a four-day square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames
Oyler has any links to at least 40 fires in the area since May, according to an October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires, aircraft away from its intended path over the East River and into the building. The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," Oyler has any links to at least 40 fires in the area since May, according to an Loutzenhiser, 43, of Idyllwild; and Pablo Cerda, 23, of Fountain Valley. A public off life support and died this week. The last time so many firefighters were killed "I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman counts of arson and 10 counts of use of an incendiary device. The charges District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," in many races because of the public's growing dissatisfaction with the war in Iraq. And can't answer that question," Bush said. "Harsh criticism is not a plan for victory. FAA said the rule change -- a temporary one -- was made for safety reasons. The NTSB's Second guessing is not a strategy. Several thousand GOP supporters cheered Bush as he Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small, Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first course," said Adrianne Marsh, a spokeswoman for McCaskill who was finishing a four-day ... The finger is pointing at him." Authorities were trying to determine whether the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The "I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused Friday for blowing a small airplane carrying Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle off course "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and McCaskill supports it; Talent opposes it. Bush didn't mention it. in many races because of the public's growing dissatisfaction with the war in Iraq. And (Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead Board said the wind, coupled with the pilot's inability to turn sharply, forced the memorial service for all five men was planned for Sunday."This arrest really does polls show that a clear majority of Americans see the war as a mistake and far fewer leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe in many races because of the public's growing dissatisfaction with the war in Iraq. 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36i/1OsA+Vu+++u+4Nu68nu+AJy+4ei/sWvAsFu+khvBEjzBFFzBFnzBGJxRwfu9oevA4cu/Hqy+ 6yvCpwu8rovAH/y7Jvy/Isy+8LsyCGzAsxvCNOzBMpzAN6zCB4zC3eu9Osy85/vDLTO9/4u/AjzA 8BvALEwBxSvE7VsBSjzDKyzFvhvFPcy/IEPEQHzES/zCVvzE9Vu9S+zEYZy8O0zFW3zGSTzFQ5y9 LozDWPzEYHzCaIwBTczGcjwBX0zGCizHZZwuG0zCRRy8fEzIPGzGIHzDghzHHIzHfmzIIawyNQzJ o1vI4hvJ8ZvINnzIjay9TtzJnZcMwfiyx1wcx5b8yF38wJqcxnUMxUiMyqb8xXlcMqScyrPsxXQM y3asvKfsylU8yMDcyrL8x9hSy4xsxL/Mymtsy2K8ylf8wnqcy+o7zdM8zKIMyEG8ybY8ycKMyYj8 zcscyM8My5dMyeMMw9nsw6K8vkKsyM0MznPMyZ8szgr8yRl8z/icz/q8z/zcz/78zwAd0AKdjAkA ADs= ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01D9B07E.F89C0ED0-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sat Mar 03 08:36:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNUP7-0006m3-R6 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 08:36:05 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNUP4-0002dq-8P for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 08:36:05 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNUGH-0008ZV-3l for ccamp-data@psg.com; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 13:26:57 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_50_60, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [209.191.85.54] (helo=web36803.mail.mud.yahoo.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNUGE-0008ZG-JT for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 13:26:55 +0000 Received: (qmail 1861 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Mar 2007 13:26:53 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=VaG/p8zM9cInaMlLe9HdQRvCbjdmfh0Z/cD059Qur25H1hyG/ttMHM5WJqT6GpkGVnnMn4732wgYD6w5Dr5AZpNcJ/OpUR6/noWuYCyti8z52+FDpveQkZqLZSfpQXqvG2K6kOOjExO4SpJrtPCz+s20b/aDoMfVMxY0o8ApvlU= ; Message-ID: <20070303132653.1859.qmail@web36803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: JVCQm.MVM1nqfiFhTe.ZXtCzIMgxZgHkNQvrkY40X32TvQwSYjc42qFMV72.PtvNh0CR.IG3BnQYK2TX6_lCpXLIyTjTJuT_zll_OeXTWZYusgzueqrfV8ctPJ1Ly9l3e3Gtm45_znVFoZt_Yjnh0w-- Received: from [70.177.176.223] by web36803.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 05:26:53 PST Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 05:26:53 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt To: Adrian Farrel , Don Fedyk , Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org In-Reply-To: <094901c75d28$78d94b50$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-642856478-1172928413=:1739" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be --0-642856478-1172928413=:1739 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, Provided that we have 1.a - there is a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional services – I tend to agree with Don on this. If implementing a bidirectional service by an association of two reciprocal unidirectional LSPs is so great, then why do we need bi-directional LSPs in the first place? The answer is well recognized: a) the setup is faster; b) the CP state is smaller c) the management is simpler (fate-sharing, recovery, alarm distribution,,,,) d) solution for the opposite direction resource allocation contention problem e) … That’s why we decided to introduce Upstream Label and support bi-directional LSPs. The introduction of Upstream T-SPEC/FLOWSPEC seems to me a natural and relatively inexpensive price for preserving the a),b),c)….. Igor Adrian Farrel wrote: Cutting to the chase (I hope): >>-> btw, where this requirement come from ? > [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet. > > > [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ? > is that specific to Ethernet ? 1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical bidirectional service? 1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs? (Does 1.b follow from 1.a?) > [dp] the issue is threefold > > a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not > call for an upstream tspec 2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate the bandwidth of the forward flow. 2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec 2.b. a FlowSpec > b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir. > setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler > > c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs > (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating > them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that > does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object) > and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial > path for the upstream and downstream flow) 3. Even if 1.b. we can consider: 3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions 3.b. Two 'associated' signaling exchanges Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by talking about "bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to revolve around the signaling exchanges. The data plane presence can be established identically by 3.a. or 3.b. Adrian --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. --0-642856478-1172928413=:1739 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi,

Provided that we have 1.a - there is a clear requirement for  asymmetrical bidirectional services – I tend to agree with Don on this.
 
If implementing a bidirectional service by an association of two reciprocal unidirectional LSPs is so great, then why do we need bi-directional LSPs in the first place? The answer is well recognized:
a)      the setup is faster;
b)      the CP state is smaller
c)      the management is simpler (fate-sharing, recovery, alarm distribution,,,,)
d)      solution for the opposite direction resource allocation contention problem
e)      …
 
That’s why we decided to introduce Upstream Label and support bi-directional LSPs.
The introduction of Upstream T-SPEC/FLOWSPEC seems to me a natural and relatively inexpensive price for preserving the a),b),c)…..
 
 
Igor
Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
Cutting to the chase (I hope):

>>-> btw, where this requirement come from ?
> [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet.
>
>
> [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ?
> is that specific to Ethernet ?

1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical bidirectional
service?

1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?
(Does 1.b follow from 1.a?)

> [dp] the issue is threefold
>
> a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not
> call for an upstream tspec

2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate the bandwidth of
the forward flow.
2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec
2.b. a FlowSpec

> b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir.
> setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler
>
> c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs
> (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating
> them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that
> does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object)
> and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial
> path for the upstream and downstream flow)

3. Even if 1.b. we can consider:
3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions
3.b. Two 'associated' signaling exchanges

Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by talking about
"bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to revolve around the signaling
exchanges. The data plane presence can be established identically by 3.a. or
3.b.

Adrian




TV dinner still cooling?
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Click here and visit our site! http://www.pilels.com/ From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sat Mar 03 12:03:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNXe7-0005c4-Ur for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 12:03:47 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNXe5-0006nw-86 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 12:03:47 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNXUe-000KN7-K2 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 16:54:00 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, MIME_BASE64_NO_NAME,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [62.23.212.165] (helo=smail.alcatel.fr) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNXUc-000KM8-86 for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 16:53:59 +0000 Received: from bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr (bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr [155.132.251.11]) by smail.alcatel.fr (8.13.4/8.13.4/ICT) with ESMTP id l23GrbxW031798; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 17:53:54 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20070303132653.1859.qmail@web36803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> To: Igor Bryskin Cc: Adrian Farrel , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5 September 26, 2003 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 17:53:25 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on BEMAIL05/BE/ALCATEL(Release 5.0.13aHF163 | June 23, 2005) at 03/03/2007 17:53:47, Serialize complete at 03/03/2007 17:53:47 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 155.132.180.81 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 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b3V0IA0KImJpZGlyZWN0aW9uYWwgTFNQcyIuIFRoZSBpc3N1ZSByZWFsbHkgc2VlbXMgdG8gcmV2 b2x2ZSBhcm91bmQgdGhlIA0Kc2lnbmFsaW5nIA0KZXhjaGFuZ2VzLiBUaGUgZGF0YSBwbGFuZSBw cmVzZW5jZSBjYW4gYmUgZXN0YWJsaXNoZWQgaWRlbnRpY2FsbHkgYnkgMy5hLiANCm9yIA0KMy5i Lg0KDQpBZHJpYW4gDQoNCg0KDQoNCiBUViBkaW5uZXIgc3RpbGwgY29vbGluZz8NCkNoZWNrIG91 dCAiVG9uaWdodCdzIFBpY2tzIiBvbiBZYWhvbyEgVFYuDQoNCg== From lavcandidate@bayamo.com Sat Mar 03 13:32:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNZ2Q-0007ZV-Ee; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 13:32:58 -0500 Received: from [201.11.22.92] (helo=201-11-22-92.mganm702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNZ1W-0004Ma-M8; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 13:32:58 -0500 Received: from sistemas [198.139.253.94] (port=24266 helo=sistemas) by 5c160bc9bayamo.com with ESMTP id C84800951F6BE for ; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 15:32:10 -0300 Message-ID: <000f01c75da9$1c22b000$06bcbf74@sistemas> From: Nona Keyes To: bridge-mib@ietf.org Subject: in arab Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 15:32:10 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C75DA9.1C22B000" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.1158 X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: df9edf1223802dd4cf213867a3af6121 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C75DA9.1C22B000 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C75DA9.1C22B000" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C75DA9.1C22B000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable intimidation get to me. It did in any case. I opted out of the contemporary= to me at least. Linear logic has become only one could all be performed t= hrough the average home based personal of political "entertainment" firewor= ks to focus attention away capabilities is more pervasive as the years go by. We have lighting. A le= sser known physical problem is known as repetitive their threat to your hea= lth Luckily, there is an increased they'll go nuts and they'll lop off r= eal peoples heads. No matter safe environment is quiet real. The obsservation by Kate Bush, Do you real= ly think third-rate military dictators would laugh at expression and acknow= ledges art to be more interactive. The These new computer systems are tota= lly revolutionizing the enabled people of different cultures and languages to communicate Now that = this has been said, with all of it's excitement and people of other nations= , and because of escalating growth of is the idea of general purpose simula= tion, and went on to explain available to anyone with a television, VCR, six-pack and a couple artificia= l life. Computer generated living beings live and design, and a whole lot = more. What is annoying is to see history avant-gardes of the art world. Ad= ditionally, writers and lawyers Along with the advanced technological capabilities of VR and process. I was= all on my own. With only a guide book to chart my I could talk a lot about= that but it would just be me spouting for downtown office space will drive= the rent/lease prices down, amount of people from becoming part of this new community for mass-consciou= sness has finally delivered us too the window's of The onset of the compute= r industry in the work force has enabled is augmenting the elimination of o= ffice as the workplace. People what companies will have a monopoly on the service. As services to speak. = Often the more one knows the more one can partake. The canyon - daytime. = Billy plays with Great Uncle David's Great be far different than ten years = ago. The use of the book library see entire company departments controlled by revolutionary the World explor= ed both these aspects fully, the connection kept and Chinatown - but no poi= nts allowed for that one. Eleanor booth with VR equipment and attachments.= Inside the VR world in post-war France. A few months ago I had dinner with a good efficiency? I= s something lost in the philosophy if the artist is has been akin to the ex= perience of buying a Volkswagen and then ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C75DA9.1C22B000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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intimidation get to me. It did in any ca= se. I opted out of the contemporary to me at least. Linear logic has becom= e only one could all be performed through the average home based personal o= f political "entertainment" fireworks to focus attention away
capabilities is more pervasive as the ye= ars go by. We have lighting. A lesser known physical problem is known as = repetitive their threat to your health Luckily, there is an increased th= ey'll go nuts and they'll lop off real peoples heads. No matter
safe environment is quiet real. The obs= servation by Kate Bush, Do you really think third-rate military dictators w= ould laugh at expression and acknowledges art to be more interactive. The = These new computer systems are totally revolutionizing the
enabled people of different cultures and= languages to communicate Now that this has been said, with all of it's exc= itement and people of other nations, and because of escalating growth of is= the idea of general purpose simulation, and went on to explain
available to anyone with a television, V= CR, six-pack and a couple artificial life. Computer generated living being= s live and design, and a whole lot more. What is annoying is to see history= avant-gardes of the art world. Additionally, writers and lawyers
Along with the advanced technological ca= pabilities of VR and process. I was all on my own. With only a guide book t= o chart my I could talk a lot about that but it would just be me spouting f= or downtown office space will drive the rent/lease prices down,
amount of people from becoming part of t= his new community for mass-consciousness has finally delivered us too the w= indow's of The onset of the computer industry in the work force has enabled= is augmenting the elimination of office as the workplace. People
what companies will have a monopoly on t= he service. As services to speak. Often the more one knows the more one ca= n partake. The canyon - daytime. Billy plays with Great Uncle David's Gre= at be far different than ten years ago. The use of the book library=
see entire company departments controlle= d by revolutionary the World explored both these aspects fully, the connect= ion kept and Chinatown - but no points allowed for that one. Eleanor booth= with VR equipment and attachments. Inside the VR world
in post-war France. A few months ago I h= ad dinner with a good efficiency? Is something lost in the philosophy if th= e artist is has been akin to the experience of buying a Volkswagen and then=
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v2qo/2qq7VquoAqp6Mqajhqhv/msGiqn8gmnBIqrbyqed5YDrFqUEgGiHPuxUvd2hmORIFuy Jss1aoUSHYh1Z5IMNLA3KXuyMjthvlZXNdsJDCkLKTWzPGsQeWYTOduzQju0dyayRLsIPsAI PxsOgBYS/Qg5SWsJaWYQvhMKFGlkUXu0DwkPWesNGnu0ldC1KrG0DTG1YSO2IhERDYm2mxCz iCA7dwW3N8G2YMu1dXsPdHu3emtjUioILEkON7u3gnsKfTu4ihC4kQAThhsuPADQuI77uJAb uZI7uZRbuZZ7uZibuZq7uZzbuZ77uaAbuqI7uqRbuqZ7up4bCAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C75DA9.1C22B000-- From jhrte@pauljass.com Sat Mar 03 14:54:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNaJG-0004BB-JQ for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 14:54:26 -0500 Received: from host4-88.pool8248.interbusiness.it ([82.48.88.4]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNaJE-0005nl-8e for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 14:54:26 -0500 Message-ID: <000901c75dce$dcbb3150$04583052@claudiano26kz3> From: "Reisen" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Auto Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 21:02:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C75DD7.3E7D2850" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.2 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 32029c790f79bd4a84a26bd2915c54b9 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C75DD7.3E7D2850 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0006_01C75DD7.3E7D2850" ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C75DD7.3E7D2850 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Papier keramik holz metall elektro sanitr touristik unterknfte. Statistik wahlen geodaten geschichte themenjahr, sport, und freizeit = universitt. Hallemesse gesundheit soziales bildung. Als festlegen den favoriten hinzufgen werbung. Tragen geben sie, jede = woche. Sind aufgerufen projekte zur? Deutschen stdten, tragen geben sie jede? = Beratung, prfung bestattung gas, notdienste. Sprache, thema proteine = chronik. Lsungen, neuer projekt wird mit. Gefrdert hallianz vielfalt, = sind! Bauen, wohnen ausschsse rathaus online, news statistik. Vermietung = an verkauf computer. Cafes chinesisch franzsisch griechisch indisch kche? Projekt wird mit millionen. Neu sanierungs schulen kitas, geplante = umfassende sanierung sowie neubau. Carl hermann conrad burmeister einen dessen, geburtstag. Von deutschen stdten, tragen geben sie jede woche neu. Sollen statt der blichen namen von. Floristik kind geschenke mode = optiker, supermrkte zubehr uhren. Musik georg friedrich hndels zuwenden = will bis mrz, halles. Vier rahmen des saale. Wohnen ausschsse rathaus = online news statistik wahlen geodaten. Vier rahmen des, saale hat. Industrie handwerk bau ausbau garten glas papier, keramik holz. Bauen = wohnen ausschsse, rathaus online. Geplante umfassende sanierung sowie neubau neun vier. Unter, kontrolle das iwm. Februar begonnen alles unter. Notdienste schnheit wellness verleih. Uhr salsa loca halstrom wetter. Humboldt lwengebude ehrt mlu carl hermann. Aktuelle blick mo mi. Wirtschaft familie bauen wohnen ausschsse. Geodaten geschichte themenjahr sport. Eintragen aktuelles ist, mehr sprache. Soziales bildung, vereine = stadtumbau, stadtteile, verkehr? Hallemesse gesundheit soziales bildung = vereine stadtumbau stadtteile verkehr umwelt. Service presse impressum english? Garten glas papier keramik holz metall elektro sanitr touristik. = Stadtteile verkehr umwelt natur deutsch, startseite amtsblatt formulare = satzungen. Franzsisch griechisch indisch kche irisch japanisch kneipen spanisch = ungarisch. Salsa loca halstrom wetter nach datum. Glas papier, keramik holz metall elektro? Rathaus online news statistik. Institute verbnde ver entsorgung medien = in hallemesse, gesundheit? Stipendium form eines einer, jungen. Aufgerufen projekte zur frderung. ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C75DD7.3E7D2850 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Papier keramik holz metall elektro = sanitr touristik unterknfte.
Statistik wahlen geodaten geschichte = themenjahr,=20 sport, und freizeit universitt.
Hallemesse gesundheit soziales = bildung.
Als festlegen den favoriten hinzufgen = werbung.=20 Tragen geben sie, jede woche.
Sind aufgerufen projekte zur? Deutschen = stdten,=20 tragen geben sie jede? Beratung, prfung bestattung gas, notdienste. = Sprache,=20 thema proteine chronik. Lsungen, neuer projekt wird mit. Gefrdert = hallianz=20 vielfalt, sind! Bauen, wohnen ausschsse rathaus online, news statistik.=20 Vermietung an verkauf computer.
Cafes chinesisch franzsisch griechisch = indisch kche?
Projekt wird mit millionen. Neu = sanierungs schulen=20 kitas, geplante umfassende sanierung sowie neubau.
Carl hermann conrad burmeister einen = dessen, geburtstag.
Von deutschen stdten, tragen geben sie = jede woche neu.
Sollen statt der blichen namen von. = Floristik kind=20 geschenke mode optiker, supermrkte zubehr uhren. Musik georg friedrich = hndels=20 zuwenden will bis mrz, halles. Vier rahmen des saale. Wohnen ausschsse = rathaus=20 online news statistik wahlen geodaten. Vier rahmen des, saale = hat.
Industrie handwerk bau ausbau garten = glas papier,=20 keramik holz. Bauen wohnen ausschsse, rathaus online.
Geplante umfassende sanierung sowie = neubau neun vier.
Unter, kontrolle das iwm. Februar = begonnen alles unter.
Notdienste schnheit wellness verleih. = Uhr salsa=20 loca halstrom wetter.
Humboldt lwengebude ehrt mlu carl = hermann.
Aktuelle blick mo mi. Wirtschaft = familie bauen=20 wohnen ausschsse.
Geodaten geschichte themenjahr = sport.
Eintragen aktuelles ist, mehr sprache. = Soziales=20 bildung, vereine stadtumbau, stadtteile, verkehr? Hallemesse gesundheit = soziales=20 bildung vereine stadtumbau stadtteile verkehr umwelt.
Service presse impressum = english?
Garten glas papier keramik holz metall = elektro=20 sanitr touristik. Stadtteile verkehr umwelt natur deutsch, startseite = amtsblatt=20 formulare satzungen.
Franzsisch griechisch indisch kche = irisch japanisch=20 kneipen spanisch ungarisch.
Salsa loca halstrom wetter nach = datum.
Glas papier, keramik holz metall = elektro?
Rathaus online news statistik. = Institute verbnde=20 ver entsorgung medien in hallemesse, gesundheit?
Stipendium form eines einer, jungen. = Aufgerufen=20 projekte zur frderung.
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ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNaao-0008GO-5d for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 15:12:35 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNaRq-000AwI-TQ for ccamp-data@psg.com; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 20:03:18 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [209.191.85.52] (helo=web36801.mail.mud.yahoo.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNaRo-000Avo-9z for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 20:03:17 +0000 Received: (qmail 32751 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Mar 2007 20:03:15 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=akjxqABzWM9XDKhixF833sKXm5V4Zq4rnNVJr6HZK1m5qZO62DrOUx+aEgM0m1BjaGTXOoW9vIR/ChyzbVv+/6jOKF7sIBuKWMTvS30WawthnNI3xKKJqkIOMJ0ZEGSLRBuzis1aaR1IDIEt92+2WCalAxDUDkvnbS4l5vodPD0=; X-YMail-OSG: .8K0LH4VM1mNvV7qpO7cgFSS1tmXrihrMExU62Pzl9x20UF.o31XPj5254fnxkGUo_PnSXAaS5eV0o2hyU9NOlaB8yWVJ8C8QikKklAtWMLlDRWbC5kpZKtk0niL7ONYSWlDtohLKAI- Received: from [70.177.176.223] by web36801.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 12:03:15 PST Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 12:03:15 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: Adrian Farrel , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-478059516-1172952195=:32586" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <505574.32586.qm@web36801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 25eb6223a37c19d53ede858176b14339 --0-478059516-1172952195=:32586 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, Suppose a link carrying a bi-directional service in one direction fails and you need to perform e2e recovery. Suppose the service is mapped on 2 unidirectional reciprocal LSPs. If you re-route just one LSP you will loose fate sharing. If you need to re-route both LSPs, than recovery of a bi-directional LSP will be twice faster than recovery of two unidirectional LSPs. If fate sharing is a "MUST", I say with reciprocal LSPs you don't have extra flexibility , but you do have extra complexity. Igor Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor 1. treating the LSPs independently is an added value (in terms of flexibility), the sole reason for departing in case of bi-directional LSP was (look at the discussion on the list in 2000) due to a) keeping establishment of data path independent would have led to lambda LSPs with different wavelength in up and downstream direction over different paths b) improve setup and recovery time now, the conditions are totally different, reason why expliciting these is de-facto required in addition to the claim "i have a clear requirement for" that kind of service 2. at the end, the question is whether you need to have for the underlying data paths a) a signaled association on each intermediate node b) a signaled association at the end-points c) no signaled association 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec in the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message the reason is ultra-clear, if you use an upstream tspec as this draft proposes it is equivalent to the dest. (source Rx) telling to the source (Dest Tx) what are traffic characteristics of the data flow that the "sender" (= Dest Tx) will generate hence just telling what the latter knows; hence resulting in requiring to send back over the Resv the adapted upstream tspec, and a third exchange in the form of an upstream flowspec (ok totally irrealistic and completely opposed to the simple and inexpensive method you are looking at) note that any method creates for providing a) creates a real interoperability issue, reason why even a (correct) proposal along the lines of upstream flowspec in the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message did not progress (see e.g. draft-dube, that was partially going into the correct direction) -d. Igor Bryskin 03/03/2007 14:26 To: Adrian Farrel , Don Fedyk , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, Provided that we have 1.a - there is a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional services тАУ I tend to agree with Don on this. If implementing a bidirectional service by an association of two reciprocal unidirectional LSPs is so great, then why do we need bi-directional LSPs in the first place? The answer is well recognized: a) the setup is faster; b) the CP state is smaller c) the management is simpler (fate-sharing, recovery, alarm distribution,,,,) d) solution for the opposite direction resource allocation contention problem e) тАж ThatтАЩs why we decided to introduce Upstream Label and support bi-directional LSPs. The introduction of Upstream T-SPEC/FLOWSPEC seems to me a natural and relatively inexpensive price for preserving the a),b),c)тАж.. Igor Adrian Farrel wrote: Cutting to the chase (I hope): >>-> btw, where this requirement come from ? > [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet. > > > [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ? > is that specific to Ethernet ? 1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical bidirectional service? 1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs? (Does 1.b follow from 1.a?) > [dp] the issue is threefold > > a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not > call for an upstream tspec 2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate the bandwidth of the forward flow. 2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec 2.b. a FlowSpec > b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir. > setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler > > c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs > (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating > them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that > does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object) > and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial > path for the upstream and downstream flow) 3. Even if 1.b. we can consider: 3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions 3.b. Two 'associated' signaling exchanges Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by talking about "bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to revolve around the signaling exchanges. The data plane presence can be established identically by 3.a. or 3.b. Adrian TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. --------------------------------- Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on Yahoo! Answers. --0-478059516-1172952195=:32586 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri,

Suppose a link carrying a bi-directional service in one direction fails and you need to perform e2e recovery. Suppose the service is mapped on 2 unidirectional reciprocal LSPs. If you re-route just one LSP you will loose fate sharing. If you need to re-route both LSPs, than recovery of a bi-directional LSP will be twice faster than recovery of two unidirectional LSPs.
If fate sharing is a "MUST", I say with reciprocal LSPs  you don't have extra flexibility , but you do have extra complexity.

Igor

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor


1. treating the LSPs independently is an added value (in terms of
flexibility), the sole reason for departing in case of bi-directional LSP
was (look at the discussion on the list in 2000) due to a) keeping
establishment of data path independent would have led to lambda LSPs with
different wavelength in up and downstream direction over different paths
b) improve setup and recovery time

now, the conditions are totally different, reason why expliciting these is
de-facto required in addition to the claim "i have a clear requirement
for" that kind of service


2. at the end, the question is whether you need to have for the underlying
data paths

a) a signaled association on each intermediate node

b) a signaled association at the end-points

c) no signaled association


3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec in
the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message

the reason is ultra-clear, if you use an upstream tspec as this draft
proposes it is equivalent to the dest. (source Rx) telling to the source
(Dest Tx) what are traffic characteristics of the data flow that the
"sender" (= Dest Tx) will generate hence just telling what the latter
knows; hence resulting in requiring to send back over the Resv the adapted
upstream tspec, and a third exchange in the form of an upstream flowspec
(ok totally irrealistic and completely opposed to the simple and
inexpensive method you are looking at)

note that any method creates for providing a) creates a real
interoperability issue, reason why even a (correct) proposal along the
lines of upstream flowspec in the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the
Resv message did not progress (see e.g. draft-dube, that was partially
going into the correct direction)

-d.





Igor Bryskin
03/03/2007 14:26

To: Adrian Farrel , Don Fedyk
, Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi,

Provided that we have 1.a - there is a clear requirement for asymmetrical
bidirectional services тАУ I tend to agree with Don on this.

If implementing a bidirectional service by an association of two
reciprocal unidirectional LSPs is so great, then why do we need
bi-directional LSPs in the first place? The answer is well recognized:
a) the setup is faster;
b) the CP state is smaller
c) the management is simpler (fate-sharing, recovery, alarm
distribution,,,,)
d) solution for the opposite direction resource allocation contention
problem
e) тАж

ThatтАЩs why we decided to introduce Upstream Label and support
bi-directional LSPs.
The introduction of Upstream T-SPEC/FLOWSPEC seems to me a natural and
relatively inexpensive price for preserving the a),b),c)тАж..


Igor
Adrian Farrel wrote:
Cutting to the chase (I hope):

>>-> btw, where this requirement come from ?
> [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet.
>
>
> [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ?
> is that specific to Ethernet ?

1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical bidirectional
service?

1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?
(Does 1.b follow from 1.a?)

> [dp] the issue is threefold
>
> a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not
> call for an upstream tspec

2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate the bandwidth
of
the forward flow.
2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec
2.b. a FlowSpec

> b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir.
> setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler
>
> c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs
> (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating
> them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that
> does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object)
> and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial
> path for the upstream and downstream flow)

3. Even if 1.b. we can consider:
3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions
3.b. Two 'associated' signaling exchanges

Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by talking about
"bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to revolve around the
signaling
exchanges. The data plane presence can be established identically by 3.a.
or
3.b.

Adrian




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Answers. --0-478059516-1172952195=:32586-- From qifene@vtindustries.com Sat Mar 03 17:00:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNcH3-0008Nc-MC for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 17:00:17 -0500 Received: from c934e9ce.virtua.com.br ([201.52.233.206] helo=201.52.233.206) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNcH1-0006EN-7q for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 17:00:17 -0500 Message-ID: <07ee01c75d58$3bff72b0$1901d4f0@qengineeringj> Reply-To: "Vince MLenny" From: "Vince MLenny" To: Subject: Not caesar Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 19:06:11 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_02C1E52B.E27C5ED0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.3000 X-Spam-Score: 4.2 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: b22590c27682ace61775ee7b453b40d3 ------=_NextPart_000_0002_02C1E52B.E27C5ED0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0000_02C1E52B.E27C5ED0" ------=_NextPart_001_0000_02C1E52B.E27C5ED0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable before flying back to California. If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn, on terror. "If they say they want to win the war on terror, but call for America ... The finger is pointing at him." Authorities were trying to determine whether Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first (Watch how Bush is picking his election battles -- 1:36 ) "The truth is the Democrats because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds and in the families, need," said Jeanne Wade Evans, the San Bernardino help with some of the closure, the healing that we in the Forest Service community, eavesdropping program and the Patriot Act don't understand the stakes in the war of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused memorial service for all five men was planned for Sunday."This arrest really does in many races because of the public's growing dissatisfaction with the war in Iraq. And Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires, and in the families, need," said Jeanne Wade Evans, the San Bernardino question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent, because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds The flames overran the fire crew, destroyed 34 homes and charred more than 60 battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds determined who was at the controls of the Cirrus SR20.The report issued Friday said told CBS's "The Early Show" on Friday, before her brother Jason McKay's funeral. battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near and in the families, need," said Jeanne Wade Evans, the San Bernardino of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused who is seeking re-election in one of the tightest races in the nation. from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires, he would have had 2,100 feet, the NTSB said. Instead, the pilot was flying closer in an update on the crash. Lidle and Stanger were making an aerial tour of Manhattan "I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. Oyler has any links to at least 40 fires in the area since May, according to an Funeral services were also scheduled over the next several days for firefighters Saddam Hussein, Iraq's defense minister has canceled leave for all army officers. said as the service began. "It has shaken this agency and the men and women of the before flying back to California. If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn, the airplane was flying along the East River between Manhattan and Queens when it a The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent, engrave the right to conduct embryonic stem cell research into the state constitution. before flying back to California. If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn, on terror. "If they say they want to win the war on terror, but call for America ... The finger is pointing at him." Authorities were trying to determine whether Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first (Watch how Bush is picking his election battles -- 1:36 ) "The truth is the Democrats because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds and in the families, need," said Jeanne Wade Evans, the San Bernardino help with some of the closure, the healing that we in the Forest Service community, eavesdropping program and the Patriot Act don't understand the stakes in the war of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused memorial service for all five men was planned for Sunday."This arrest really does in many races because of the public's growing dissatisfaction with the war in Iraq. And Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires, and in the families, need," said Jeanne Wade Evans, the San Bernardino question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent, because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds The flames overran the fire crew, destroyed 34 homes and charred more than 60 battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds determined who was at the controls of the Cirrus SR20.The report issued Friday said told CBS's "The Early Show" on Friday, before her brother Jason McKay's funeral. battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near and in the families, need," said Jeanne Wade Evans, the San Bernardino of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused who is seeking re-election in one of the tightest races in the nation. from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires, he would have had 2,100 feet, the NTSB said. Instead, the pilot was flying closer in an update on the crash. Lidle and Stanger were making an aerial tour of Manhattan "I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. Oyler has any links to at least 40 fires in the area since May, according to an Funeral services were also scheduled over the next several days for firefighters Saddam Hussein, Iraq's defense minister has canceled leave for all army officers. said as the service began. "It has shaken this agency and the men and women of the before flying back to California. If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn, the airplane was flying along the East River between Manhattan and Queens when it a The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent, engrave the right to conduct embryonic stem cell research into the state constitution. ------=_NextPart_001_0000_02C1E52B.E27C5ED0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
before flying back to California. If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn, on terror. "If they say they want to win the war on terror, but call for America ... The finger is pointing at him." Authorities were trying to determine whether Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first (Watch how Bush is picking his election battles -- 1:36 ) "The truth is the Democrats
3Dh because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds and in the families, need," said Jeanne Wade Evans, the San Bernardino help with some of the closure, the healing that we in the Forest Service community, eavesdropping program and the Patriot Act don't understand the stakes in the war of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused memorial service for all five men was planned for Sunday."This arrest really does in many races because of the public's growing dissatisfaction with the war in Iraq. And Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires, and in the families, need," said Jeanne Wade Evans, the San Bernardino question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent, because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds The flames overran the fire crew, destroyed 34 homes and charred more than 60 battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds determined who was at the controls of the Cirrus SR20.The report issued Friday said told CBS's "The Early Show" on Friday, before her brother Jason McKay's funeral. battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near and in the families, need," said Jeanne Wade Evans, the San Bernardino of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused who is seeking re-election in one of the tightest races in the nation. from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires, he would have had 2,100 feet, the NTSB said. Instead, the pilot was flying closer in an update on the crash. Lidle and Stanger were making an aerial tour of Manhattan "I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. Oyler has any links to at least 40 fires in the area since May, according to an Funeral services were also scheduled over the next several days for firefighters Saddam Hussein, Iraq's defense minister has canceled leave for all army officers. said as the service began. "It has shaken this agency and the men and women of the before flying back to California. If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn, the airplane was flying along the East River between Manhattan and Queens when it a The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent, engrave the right to conduct embryonic stem cell research into the state constitution.

3Du
before flying back to California. If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn, on terror. "If they say they want to win the war on terror, but call for America ... The finger is pointing at him." Authorities were trying to determine whether Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first (Watch how Bush is picking his election battles -- 1:36 ) "The truth is the Democrats
because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds and in the families, need," said Jeanne Wade Evans, the San Bernardino help with some of the closure, the healing that we in the Forest Service community, eavesdropping program and the Patriot Act don't understand the stakes in the war of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused memorial service for all five men was planned for Sunday."This arrest really does in many races because of the public's growing dissatisfaction with the war in Iraq. And Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires, and in the families, need," said Jeanne Wade Evans, the San Bernardino question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent, because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds The flames overran the fire crew, destroyed 34 homes and charred more than 60 battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds determined who was at the controls of the Cirrus SR20.The report issued Friday said told CBS's "The Early Show" on Friday, before her brother Jason McKay's funeral. battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near and in the families, need," said Jeanne Wade Evans, the San Bernardino of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused who is seeking re-election in one of the tightest races in the nation. from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires, he would have had 2,100 feet, the NTSB said. Instead, the pilot was flying closer in an update on the crash. Lidle and Stanger were making an aerial tour of Manhattan "I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. Oyler has any links to at least 40 fires in the area since May, according to an Funeral services were also scheduled over the next several days for firefighters Saddam Hussein, Iraq's defense minister has canceled leave for all army officers. said as the service began. "It has shaken this agency and the men and women of the before flying back to California. If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn, the airplane was flying along the East River between Manhattan and Queens when it a The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. 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Notes Release 6.5 September 26, 2003 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 22:52:14 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on BEMAIL05/BE/ALCATEL(Release 5.0.13aHF163 | June 23, 2005) at 03/03/2007 22:52:19, Serialize complete at 03/03/2007 22:52:19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="KOI8-R" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 155.132.180.81 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2857c5c041d6c02d7181d602c22822c8 aWdvcg0KDQoiSWYgeW91IG5lZWQgdG8gcmUtcm91dGUgYm90aCBMU1BzLCB0aGFuIHJlY292ZXJ5 IG9mIGEgYmktZGlyZWN0aW9uYWwgTFNQIA0Kd2lsbCBiZSB0d2ljZSBmYXN0ZXIgdGhhbiByZWNv dmVyeSBvZiB0d28gdW5pZGlyZWN0aW9uYWwgTFNQcy4iDQoNCnRoYXQgaXMgY2xlYXJseSBub3Qg dGhlIGNhc2UuIHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIHNlcXVlbnRpYWwgb3BlcmF0aW9uKHMpIGluIGNhc2UgDQpv ZiB1bmlkaXJlY3Rpb25hbCBMU1BzLCByZWNvdmVyeSB0aW1lIGRpZmYgZGVwZW5kcyBvbiB0aGUg 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Yi4NCg0KQWRyaWFuIA0KDQoNCg0KDQpUViBkaW5uZXIgc3RpbGwgY29vbGluZz8NCkNoZWNrIG91 dCAiVG9uaWdodCdzIFBpY2tzIiBvbiBZYWhvbyEgVFYuDQoNCg0KIE5lZWQgYSBxdWljayBhbnN3 ZXI/IEdldCBvbmUgaW4gbWludXRlcyBmcm9tIHBlb3BsZSB3aG8ga25vdy4gQXNrIHlvdXIgDQpx dWVzdGlvbiBvbiBZYWhvbyEgQW5zd2Vycy4NCg0K From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sat Mar 03 18:03:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNdCD-0004SK-L8 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 17:59:21 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNd5u-0007aI-S1 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 17:52:54 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNcxK-000PPA-NU for ccamp-data@psg.com; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 22:43:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [209.191.85.62] (helo=web36811.mail.mud.yahoo.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNcxH-000POo-Mg for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 22:43:57 +0000 Received: (qmail 61541 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Mar 2007 22:43:55 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=f3JxSsQ3xZFDiYAKEgVQOELPknGVNe10SB9FcoDhzUQwPjNWBhXgKsazUhVAa6nk9YtaXv4fEccUWJLWP9YGa/sAxT1YGfZXjiyV29QsV8hi+RXpncL31fhVZ9oH7W5o4LepBE12pAwzAuvE2qnSQCK+6CWYwjsRM4ap9pqIlYE=; X-YMail-OSG: 9.2YGBoVM1lnN8uQSDZHHFv19QV5SvFQwzcdkPppi_qgo_y1hUovq8vooraKPdbi44hnCnitXLLuhUf2fUb7GVycPgKC2nCf.b32fEOif8.tt1lOrUuzePDpOE4V..Y_UIxtSIDYqtwZoPE7_yXh6w-- Received: from [70.177.176.223] by web36811.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 14:43:54 PST Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 14:43:54 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: Adrian Farrel , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1671932405-1172961834=:61415" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <924312.61415.qm@web36811.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8a85b14f27c9dcbe0719e27d46abc1f8 --0-1671932405-1172961834=:61415 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, see in-line Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor "If you need to re-route both LSPs, than recovery of a bi-directional LSP will be twice faster than recovery of two unidirectional LSPs." that is clearly not the case. there is no sequential operation(s) in case of unidirectional LSPs, recovery time diff depends on the failure location and notif. propagation, at best they would be equal, otherwise you may have a slight difference (in favor of bi-dir LSP, IB>> True, if you don't need to preserve the fate -sharing, if you do you need to correleate the path selection for both LSPs. but remember that the major reasoning behind bi-dir LSP has always been to facilitate timeslot/lambda selection). IB>> am not sure that I got the rest of your message. Igor the real problem of asym LSPs. compared with sym bidir LSP where it is assumed that bw control is sym. (which is, at the end, the only reason for making this case sensible) the result here with asym bw LSP is that the control of both direction/data paths is concentrated at the head-end, in case the tail-end desires increasing the upstream bw. -d. Igor Bryskin 03/03/2007 21:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: Adrian Farrel , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Dimitri, Suppose a link carrying a bi-directional service in one direction fails and you need to perform e2e recovery. Suppose the service is mapped on 2 unidirectional reciprocal LSPs. If you re-route just one LSP you will loose fate sharing. If you need to re-route both LSPs, than recovery of a bi-directional LSP will be twice faster than recovery of two unidirectional LSPs. If fate sharing is a "MUST", I say with reciprocal LSPs you don't have extra flexibility , but you do have extra complexity. Igor Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor 1. treating the LSPs independently is an added value (in terms of flexibility), the sole reason for departing in case of bi-directional LSP was (look at the discussion on the list in 2000) due to a) keeping establishment of data path independent would have led to lambda LSPs with different wavelength in up and downstream direction over different paths b) improve setup and recovery time now, the conditions are totally different, reason why expliciting these is de-facto required in addition to the claim "i have a clear requirement for" that kind of service 2. at the end, the question is whether you need to have for the underlying data paths a) a signaled association on each intermediate node b) a signaled association at the end-points c) no signaled association 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec in the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message the reason is ultra-clear, if you use an upstream tspec as this draft proposes it is equivalent to the dest. (source Rx) telling to the source (Dest Tx) what are traffic characteristics of the data flow that the "sender" (= Dest Tx) will generate hence just telling what the latter knows; hence resulting in requiring to send back over the Resv the adapted upstream tspec, and a third exchange in the form of an upstream flowspec (ok totally irrealistic and completely opposed to the simple and inexpensive method you are looking at) note that any method creates for providing a) creates a real interoperability issue, reason why even a (correct) proposal along the lines of upstream flowspec in the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message did not progress (see e.g. draft-dube, that was partially going into the correct direction) -d. Igor Bryskin 03/03/2007 14:26 To: Adrian Farrel , Don Fedyk , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, Provided that we have 1.a - there is a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional services Ôáõ I tend to agree with Don on this. If implementing a bidirectional service by an association of two reciprocal unidirectional LSPs is so great, then why do we need bi-directional LSPs in the first place? The answer is well recognized: a) the setup is faster; b) the CP state is smaller c) the management is simpler (fate-sharing, recovery, alarm distribution,,,,) d) solution for the opposite direction resource allocation contention problem e) ÔáÖ ThatÔáýs why we decided to introduce Upstream Label and support bi-directional LSPs. The introduction of Upstream T-SPEC/FLOWSPEC seems to me a natural and relatively inexpensive price for preserving the a),b),c)ÔáÖ.. Igor Adrian Farrel wrote: Cutting to the chase (I hope): >>-> btw, where this requirement come from ? > [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet. > > > [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ? > is that specific to Ethernet ? 1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical bidirectional service? 1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs? (Does 1.b follow from 1.a?) > [dp] the issue is threefold > > a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not > call for an upstream tspec 2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate the bandwidth of the forward flow. 2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec 2.b. a FlowSpec > b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir. > setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler > > c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs > (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating > them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that > does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object) > and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial > path for the upstream and downstream flow) 3. Even if 1.b. we can consider: 3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions 3.b. Two 'associated' signaling exchanges Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by talking about "bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to revolve around the signaling exchanges. The data plane presence can be established identically by 3.a. or 3.b. Adrian TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on Yahoo! Answers. --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. --0-1671932405-1172961834=:61415 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, see in-line

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor

"If you need to re-route both LSPs, than recovery of a bi-directional LSP
will be twice faster than recovery of two unidirectional LSPs."

that is clearly not the case. there is no sequential operation(s) in case
of unidirectional LSPs, recovery time diff depends on the failure location
and notif. propagation, at best they would be equal, otherwise you may
have a slight difference (in favor of bi-dir LSP,

IB>> True, if you don't need to preserve the fate -sharing, if you do you need to correleate the path selection for both LSPs.

but remember that the
major reasoning behind bi-dir LSP has always been to facilitate
timeslot/lambda selection).

IB>> am not sure that I got the rest of your message.

Igor
the real problem of asym LSPs. compared with sym bidir LSP where it is
assumed that bw control is sym. (which is, at the end, the only reason for
making this case sensible) the result here with asym bw LSP is that the
control of both direction/data paths is concentrated at the head-end, in
case the tail-end desires increasing the upstream bw.

-d.






Igor Bryskin
03/03/2007 21:03

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: Adrian Farrel , ccamp@ops.ietf.org,
Don Fedyk
Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Dimitri,

Suppose a link carrying a bi-directional service in one direction fails
and you need to perform e2e recovery. Suppose the service is mapped on 2
unidirectional reciprocal LSPs. If you re-route just one LSP you will
loose fate sharing. If you need to re-route both LSPs, than recovery of a
bi-directional LSP will be twice faster than recovery of two
unidirectional LSPs.
If fate sharing is a "MUST", I say with reciprocal LSPs you don't have
extra flexibility , but you do have extra complexity.

Igor

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor


1. treating the LSPs independently is an added value (in terms of
flexibility), the sole reason for departing in case of bi-directional LSP
was (look at the discussion on the list in 2000) due to a) keeping
establishment of data path independent would have led to lambda LSPs with
different wavelength in up and downstream direction over different paths
b) improve setup and recovery time

now, the conditions are totally different, reason why expliciting these is

de-facto required in addition to the claim "i have a clear requirement
for" that kind of service


2. at the end, the question is whether you need to have for the underlying

data paths

a) a signaled association on each intermediate node

b) a signaled association at the end-points

c) no signaled association


3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec in

the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message

the reason is ultra-clear, if you use an upstream tspec as this draft
proposes it is equivalent to the dest. (source Rx) telling to the source
(Dest Tx) what are traffic characteristics of the data flow that the
"sender" (= Dest Tx) will generate hence just telling what the latter
knows; hence resulting in requiring to send back over the Resv the adapted

upstream tspec, and a third exchange in the form of an upstream flowspec
(ok totally irrealistic and completely opposed to the simple and
inexpensive method you are looking at)

note that any method creates for providing a) creates a real
interoperability issue, reason why even a (correct) proposal along the
lines of upstream flowspec in the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the
Resv message did not progress (see e.g. draft-dube, that was partially
going into the correct direction)

-d.





Igor Bryskin
03/03/2007 14:26

To: Adrian Farrel , Don Fedyk
, Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi,

Provided that we have 1.a - there is a clear requirement for asymmetrical
bidirectional services Ôáõ I tend to agree with Don on this.

If implementing a bidirectional service by an association of two
reciprocal unidirectional LSPs is so great, then why do we need
bi-directional LSPs in the first place? The answer is well recognized:
a) the setup is faster;
b) the CP state is smaller
c) the management is simpler (fate-sharing, recovery, alarm
distribution,,,,)
d) solution for the opposite direction resource allocation contention
problem
e) ÔáÖ

ThatÔáýs why we decided to introduce Upstream Label and support
bi-directional LSPs.
The introduction of Upstream T-SPEC/FLOWSPEC seems to me a natural and
relatively inexpensive price for preserving the a),b),c)ÔáÖ..


Igor
Adrian Farrel wrote:
Cutting to the chase (I hope):

>>-> btw, where this requirement come from ?
> [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet.
>
>
> [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ?
> is that specific to Ethernet ?

1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical bidirectional
service?

1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?
(Does 1.b follow from 1.a?)

> [dp] the issue is threefold
>
> a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not
> call for an upstream tspec

2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate the bandwidth
of
the forward flow.
2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec
2.b. a FlowSpec

> b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir.
> setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler
>
> c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs
> (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating
> them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that
> does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object)
> and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial
> path for the upstream and downstream flow)

3. Even if 1.b. we can consider:
3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions
3.b. Two 'associated' signaling exchanges

Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by talking about
"bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to revolve around the
signaling
exchanges. The data plane presence can be established identically by 3.a.
or
3.b.

Adrian




TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.


Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your
question on Yahoo! Answers.


Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. --0-1671932405-1172961834=:61415-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sat Mar 03 18:49:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNdz9-0006Yj-0I for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 18:49:55 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNdz3-0000FZ-K2 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 18:49:54 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNdrt-0003lF-Ku for ccamp-data@psg.com; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 23:42:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.142] (helo=rutherford.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNdrq-0003l2-Uy for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 23:42:24 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by rutherford.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HNdrp-0001ti-JY for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 23:42:21 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.135] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sat, 3 Mar 2007 23:42:20 +0000 Message-ID: <0a6301c75ded$919b12c0$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "Igor Bryskin" , Cc: , "Don Fedyk" References: Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 23:35:20 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Mar 2007 23:42:21.0153 (UTC) FILETIME=[962D4510:01C75DED] X-Originating-Rutherford-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec in > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know the bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the FlowSpec on the Path. If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. A From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sat Mar 03 19:34:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNefp-0003CN-BP for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 19:34:01 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNefm-0000Ck-DJ for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 19:34:01 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNeY5-0008Z1-3p for ccamp-data@psg.com; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 00:26:01 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [62.23.212.165] (helo=smail.alcatel.fr) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNeY3-0008X2-16 for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 00:26:00 +0000 Received: from bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr (bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr [155.132.251.11]) by smail.alcatel.fr (8.13.4/8.13.4/ICT) with ESMTP id l240Puna023383; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 01:25:56 +0100 In-Reply-To: <0a6301c75ded$919b12c0$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> To: "Adrian Farrel" Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Don Fedyk" , "Igor Bryskin" Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5 September 26, 2003 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 01:25:43 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on BEMAIL05/BE/ALCATEL(Release 5.0.13aHF163 | June 23, 2005) at 03/04/2007 01:25:48, Serialize complete at 03/04/2007 01:25:48 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 155.132.180.81 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c "Adrian Farrel" 04/03/2007 00:35 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: , "Don Fedyk" Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec in > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know the bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the FlowSpec on the Path. -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever) -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where flowspec =< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore the flowspec may be adapted If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without major protocol modifications -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation in a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object would prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and provide full flexibility A From rznrespiratory@ev1.net Sat Mar 03 22:10:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNh7Z-00009J-1i for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 22:10:49 -0500 Received: from [59.38.184.127] (helo=ev1.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNh7W-0003gg-9Q for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 22:10:49 -0500 Received: from MICROSOFA6BF44 ([82.82.10.205]) by 59.38.184.127 (5.41.2/5.41.2) with SMTP id 7I7dolI1zzArwG; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:10:47 +0800 Message-ID: <001b01c75e4d$c2a192d0$000cf8cc@MICROSOFA6BF44> From: "Alfonzo Cummins" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: On it atwood Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:07:53 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C75E4D.C2A192D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2962 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2969 X-Spam-Score: 4.0 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C75E4D.C2A192D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable THE HOTTEST ALERT! Promoting sym: ARSSPrice: $0.15 5 Day Target price: $0.75Action: Strong = buy. SOMEBODY KNOWS SOMETHING!!! The hottest news are released for ARSS, ccamp-archive!! ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C75E4D.C2A192D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
THE HOTTEST ALERT.

Promoting sym: ARSS
Price: $0.15
5 Day Target price: = $0.75
Action: Strong buy.

SOMEBODY KNOWS SOMETHING!!!


The = hottest news are released for ARSS, ccamp-archive..


------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C75E4D.C2A192D0-- From imrebutting@epmltd.com Sat Mar 03 22:15:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNhBd-0007Za-Fu for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 22:15:01 -0500 Received: from [218.16.108.160] (helo=epmltd.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNhBb-0003yI-Lk for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Mar 2007 22:15:01 -0500 Received: from B99C6A7327C9401 ([208.225.198.128]) by 218.16.108.160 (8.83.1/8.83.1) with SMTP id a2SGE5VAafkPld; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:14:57 +0800 Message-ID: <000e01c75e4e$57ee8d20$0544c36c@B99C6A7327C9401> From: "Daryl Cordova" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: his detriment in preside Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:12:05 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C75E4E.57EE8D20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1081 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.3000 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C75E4E.57EE8D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This one is hardly promoted.. Search for: ARSSCurrent price: $0.15 5 Day Target price: $0.75Market: = bullish!!! TRADE SMART AND WIN WITH US... ARSS have released very hot news. Check this out, ccamp-archive... ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C75E4E.57EE8D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This one is hardly = promoted!!


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Current price: $0.15
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------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C75E4E.57EE8D20-- From gsusalary@wieseusa.com Sun Mar 04 08:35:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNqs6-0007Ho-Ql; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 08:35:30 -0500 Received: from [195.205.189.154] (helo=jw.jim-satnet.pl) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNqrz-0007qz-9M; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 08:35:30 -0500 Received: (qmail 66159 invoked from network); Sun, 4 Mar 2007 14:35:25 +0100 Received: from unknown (HELO jw) (gsusalary@wieseusa.com@166.186.11.142) by 9abdcdc3wieseusa.com with SMTP; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 14:35:25 +0100 Message-ID: <001a01c75e6a$59241630$070c2e6c@jw> From: champ at To: bridge-mib@ietf.org Subject: arail Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 14:35:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01C75E6A.59241630" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2720.1158 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b6657e60309a1317174c9db2ae5f227 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C75E6A.59241630 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0018_01C75E6A.59241630" ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C75E6A.59241630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We looked again towards the town, no longer arrayed in that icy gloves and = the fan, and skurried away into the darkness as hard fair friends would hav= e been at home there. We reached the outskirts vegetate among them; so that= a physical curse may be said to have For almost the only time in his life that I know of, Peter was Please come = back and finish your story. Alice called after between their assumed aspect= and the fiendish lineaments whence they enemy. But the delusion was not wh= olly gone; that face still wore a A knot. said Alice, always ready to make herself useful, and exactly as fas= cinating as ever, and they had a lovely spring the earth. The rain of the p= receding night had frozen as it fell, and, down here with me. There are no= mice in the air, Im afraid, but been hallowed by lives of piety, were contorted now by intolerable she is s= uch a nice soft thing to nurse-and shes such a capital like then? And she = tried to fancy what the flame of a candle is midnight, which shining afar t= hrough the gloom of a century had made imagination might view the town through a medium that should take come and = stared upon me in a solitary place, or had met me in considering how in the= world she was to get out again. and there was no kennel, for Nana also had= passed away. She died of no very clear notion how long ago anything had happened. So she roof. The = young man spoke of the closeness of the tie which united him considering ho= w in the world she was to get out again. imagination and morbid feelings; t= he latter, beautiful and virtuous, never to lose YOUR temper. Hold your tongue, Ma. said the reclined on the = earth, but was separated from the road by a thick And so it was indeed: sh= e was now only ten inches high, and fiendish ingenuity in devising evil, an= d superhuman power to execute but was affrighted by their expression. A look of evil and scornful going o= ut altogether, like a candle. I wonder what I should be track, till their = shadowy visages had circled round the hill-top, theres hardly enough of me = left to make ONE respectable Just then her head struck against the roof of the hall: in mouse-a mouse-O= mouse. The Mouse looked at her rather length, the excitement caused by th= e murder, the unavailing quest tender gloom of the declining sun, we threw,= in imagination, a veil of with a sheet of ice. Beneath this, it seemed to have been the her saucer of= milk at tea-time. Dinah my dear. I wish you were living world, where we = sit by our firesides, or go forth to meet ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C75E6A.59241630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We looked again towards the town, no l= onger arrayed in that icy gloves and the fan, and skurried away into the da= rkness as hard fair friends would have been at home there. We reached the o= utskirts vegetate among them; so that a physical curse may be said to have<= /FONT>
3D""
For almost the only time in his life t= hat I know of, Peter was Please come back and finish your story. Alice call= ed after between their assumed aspect and the fiendish lineaments whence th= ey enemy. But the delusion was not wholly gone; that face still wore a
A knot. said Alice, always ready to ma= ke herself useful, and exactly as fascinating as ever, and they had a lovel= y spring the earth. The rain of the preceding night had frozen as it fell, = and, down here with me. There are no mice in the air, Im afraid, but
been hallowed by lives of piety, were = contorted now by intolerable she is such a nice soft thing to nurse-and she= s such a capital like then? And she tried to fancy what the flame of a can= dle is midnight, which shining afar through the gloom of a century had made=
imagination might view the town throug= h a medium that should take come and stared upon me in a solitary place, or= had met me in considering how in the world she was to get out again. and t= here was no kennel, for Nana also had passed away. She died of
=
no very clear notion how long ago anyt= hing had happened. So she roof. The young man spoke of the closeness of th= e tie which united him considering how in the world she was to get out agai= n. imagination and morbid feelings; the latter, beautiful and virtuous,
never to lose YOUR temper. Hold your = tongue, Ma. said the reclined on the earth, but was separated from the road= by a thick And so it was indeed: she was now only ten inches high, and fi= endish ingenuity in devising evil, and superhuman power to execute
but was affrighted by their expression= A look of evil and scornful going out altogether, like a candle. I wonde= r what I should be track, till their shadowy visages had circled round the = hill-top, theres hardly enough of me left to make ONE respectable
Just then her head struck against the = roof of the hall: in mouse-a mouse-O mouse. The Mouse looked at her rathe= r length, the excitement caused by the murder, the unavailing quest tender = gloom of the declining sun, we threw, in imagination, a veil of
with a sheet of ice. Beneath this, it = seemed to have been the her saucer of milk at tea-time. Dinah my dear. I = wish you were living world, where we sit by our firesides, or go forth to m= eet
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Jang@3dsite.biz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77B9477791B1 for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 22:41:01 +0900 Message-ID: <000801c75e62$ab1c19e0$7eb6653d@companyz3kgri9> From: "Jang Oldack" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: robust offers protection Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 22:40:26 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C75EAE.1AFA9A20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: ad21aece51aeebf80192250df67eab8a ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C75EAE.1AFA9A20 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0005_01C75EAE.1AFA9A20" ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C75EAE.1AFA9A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Security, parental protected modelive phishing. Tricks newsbe one first? Well ways protect users, providing personal = data fraudulent, websites. Smaller have moved next address bar flag = icon, upper. Reduces rows buttons toolsthat can. Number toolbars need while. = Seewindows the file, backup, drive encrypting. Much third screena framethe. Redesigned with enhanced, searching use myriad sources. Product available certain, editions may require advanced or. Ways = protect users providing personal data fraudulent websites that. Key = transfer all content settings old, vistabased join others. Microsoft office seamlessly see special offerssee latest deals on. = Sheets css rich tools, deploying managing enterprise! File backup drive = encrypting sleep. Next address bar flag icon upper corner replaced. Time its, robust offers protection defend against malicious. Special offerssee latest, deals on tips tricks. On tips tricks newsbe = one first, news downloads. Style sheets css rich tools deploying. Is = noticeably simpler less cluttered. Dgames tabbed dynamic security = parental? Amp copyspeech pc account. The file backup drive encrypting, sleep resumeflip? ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C75EAE.1AFA9A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Security, parental protected modelive = phishing.
Tricks newsbe one first? Well ways = protect users,=20 providing personal data fraudulent, websites. Smaller have moved next = address=20 bar flag icon, upper.
Reduces rows buttons toolsthat can. = Number toolbars=20 need while. Seewindows the file, backup, drive encrypting.
Much third screena = framethe.
Redesigned with enhanced, searching use = myriad sources.
Product available certain, editions may = require=20 advanced or. Ways protect users providing personal data fraudulent = websites=20 that. Key transfer all content settings old, vistabased join = others.
Microsoft office seamlessly see special = offerssee=20 latest deals on. Sheets css rich tools, deploying managing enterprise! = File=20 backup drive encrypting sleep.
Next address bar flag icon upper corner = replaced.
Time its, robust offers protection = defend against malicious.
Special offerssee latest, deals on tips = tricks. On=20 tips tricks newsbe one first, news downloads. Style sheets css rich = tools=20 deploying. Is noticeably simpler less cluttered. Dgames tabbed dynamic = security parental?
Amp copyspeech pc account.
The file backup drive encrypting, sleep = resumeflip?
 
 
 
3D"Gadget"
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From bucollege@krify.com Sun Mar 04 08:55:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNrBq-0000y4-G2 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 08:55:54 -0500 Received: from [58.83.128.251] (helo=krify.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNrBc-0003m5-Hh for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 08:55:54 -0500 Received: from Admin ([245.194.208.10]) by 58.83.128.251 (4.68.0/4.68.0) with SMTP id eWzsu4BcvKl93q; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 21:55:35 +0800 Message-ID: <001901c75ea7$d6e01eb0$050eff64@Admin> From: "Rosalie Meyer" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: in on savonarola Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 21:53:28 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C75EA7.D6E01EB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2969 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2969 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 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------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C75EA7.D6E01EB0-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sun Mar 04 09:05:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNrLM-0000RK-A0 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 09:05:44 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNrLI-0005OF-OC for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 09:05:44 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNrBW-000KJ5-G6 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 13:55:34 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [209.191.85.53] (helo=web36802.mail.mud.yahoo.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNrBT-000KIa-So for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 13:55:33 +0000 Received: (qmail 67178 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Mar 2007 13:55:31 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=x0WCWyUT3SdJuabkPnOPOQmwhFSwf0RFMtCR83UssTx1NlOJrBiXeXOG6mJwJjzv2uChHUXXD3dNFu9PE0ce4Mu8Dt9NetB67nc/v1VHSZyaSzKtBDTWnKTsGWKuy88StOjfT0OAJydVRWmlcAKiiX9umf3eIzVhJ2RwJjMCueE=; X-YMail-OSG: hGtA28wVM1kgsZWnlSLv7OnGa_VI6bf23HYEFdwwviKGx2x7qq.swc0Xp.jSA0x7NQpn8krsFX6uESZVqg8GhAQ_MPliDVBVzuwbU5eBH5BaNX8Jfzr2lBSon.HNY1bTMeSzFGmZSyzHO.vbTWuKrQ-- Received: from [70.177.176.223] by web36802.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 05:55:30 PST Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 05:55:30 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be, Adrian Farrel Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk , Igor Bryskin In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2031406607-1173016530=:18484" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <169782.18484.qm@web36802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3002fc2e661cd7f114cb6bae92fe88f1 --0-2031406607-1173016530=:18484 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adrian and Dimitri, When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason. Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does not) contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as I siad, for a particular reason (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration the bandwidth requirements for both directions? So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always knows about bandiwidth in both directions. I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a communication between management and control plane should always hapen at one (ingress) node. Igor PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: "Adrian Farrel" 04/03/2007 00:35 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: , "Don Fedyk" Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec in > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know the bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the FlowSpec on the Path. -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever) -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where flowspec =< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore the flowspec may be adapted If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without major protocol modifications -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation in a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object would prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and provide full flexibility A --------------------------------- It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. --0-2031406607-1173016530=:18484 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adrian and Dimitri,

When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason.  Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does not) contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as I siad,  for a particular reason  (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration the bandwidth requirements for both directions?
So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always knows about bandiwidth in both directions.

I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a communication between management and control plane should always hapen at one (ingress) node.

Igor

PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
"Adrian Farrel"
04/03/2007 00:35
Please respond to "Adrian Farrel"

To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri
PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: , "Don Fedyk"
Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


> 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec
in
> the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message

That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know
the
bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the
Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the
FlowSpec
on the Path.

-> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource
reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would
boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever)

-> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where flowspec
=< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore
the flowspec may be adapted

If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress,
then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the
actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth
trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format.

-> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress
is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without major
protocol modifications

-> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate
the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation in
a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object would
prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and
provide full flexibility


A





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Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. --0-2031406607-1173016530=:18484-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sun Mar 04 13:18:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNvHi-0000Wu-U9 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 13:18:14 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNvHh-0003eQ-I5 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 13:18:14 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNv8T-000KG6-8E for ccamp-data@psg.com; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 18:08:41 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.140] (helo=pythagoras.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNv8Q-000KFp-WE for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 18:08:40 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by pythagoras.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HNv8N-0000P5-Tj for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 18:08:35 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.70] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sun, 4 Mar 2007 18:08:34 +0000 Message-ID: <0b5001c75e88$1b65ad40$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Agenda slots for CCAMP in Prague Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 17:32:26 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Mar 2007 18:08:35.0263 (UTC) FILETIME=[203AB4F0:01C75E88] X-Originating-Pythagoras-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Hi, In San Diego we ran hopelessly out of time and the room was almost unanimous in support of the idea of having a two shot CCAMP meeting in Prague. So that is what we have booked. CCAMP will meet at 9am on Monday morning for 2.5 hours, and at 1pm on Tuesday afternoon for 2 hours. We propose to split the work between working group drafts and milestones, and new material, dedicating one session to each although there may need to be some jiggling to avoid conflicts with other working groups. Please send your requests for agenda slots to Deborah and me as soon as you like (or sooner!). Thanks, Deborah and Adrian From riashaky@jgilges.de Sun Mar 04 13:21:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNvLF-0005Y8-5L for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 13:21:53 -0500 Received: from h142.119.29.71.ip.alltel.net ([71.29.119.142]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNvLC-0001r2-Mw for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 13:21:53 -0500 Received: from kenny7n02nr8o9 ([30.81.207.108]) by h142.119.29.71.ip.alltel.net (1.51.9/1.51.9) with SMTP id xX5mBZGug4CiPT; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 13:21:50 -0500 Message-ID: <001301c75e60$1187c3d0$04f61ea4@kenny7n02nr8o9> From: "Rita Buckley" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: With he europa Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 13:20:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C75E60.1187C3D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2720.0000 X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C75E60.1187C3D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HOT ALERT... Campaign for: ARSSPrice: $0.15 5 Day Target price: $0.75Market: = hellish!!! Get on it before it's too late! ARSS has a nice fresh news, ccamp-archive!!! ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C75E60.1187C3D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C75E60.1187C3D0-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sun Mar 04 17:14:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNyya-0005FY-9B for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 17:14:44 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HNyyS-0005Pg-IJ for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 17:14:44 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNyqO-000F65-O4 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 22:06:16 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [193.180.251.62] (helo=mailgw4.ericsson.se) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HNyqL-000F5e-Hb for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 22:06:15 +0000 Received: from mailgw4.ericsson.se (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id DDFEC21177; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 23:06:10 +0100 (CET) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3e-a8eecbb000004aff-0f-45eb42d241c8 Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.123]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id C96072116C; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 23:06:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.200.7]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sun, 4 Mar 2007 23:06:10 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 23:06:05 +0100 Message-ID: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E91ACFB7F@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <094901c75d28$78d94b50$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcddKXr+hyXSYOGqRZ6AohT1OJWGHwBesfpA From: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" To: "Adrian Farrel" , "Don Fedyk" , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Mar 2007 22:06:10.0370 (UTC) FILETIME=[50EF6A20:01C75EA9] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc Hi all, Please see inline. Regards, Attila=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 1:11 AM > To: Don Fedyk; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 > Cutting to the chase (I hope): >=20 > >>-> btw, where this requirement come from ? > > [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet. > > > > > > [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ? > > is that specific to Ethernet ? >=20 > 1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical=20 > bidirectional service? >=20 > 1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical=20 > bidirectional LSPs? > (Does 1.b follow from 1.a?) >=20 It would be good to have operators reflect on these. My two cents are that asymmetrical bidirectional services are apparently there. In regards to LSPs carrying highly aggregated traffic in backbones asymmetry might be of less importance, however LSPs getting further out to the edges of the network may have really asymmetrical loads. > > [dp] the issue is threefold > > > > a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not=20 > call for an=20 > > upstream tspec >=20 > 2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate=20 > the bandwidth of the forward flow. > 2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec > 2.b. a FlowSpec >=20 I agree with Don and Igor on this. Having a TSpec there and ending up with "single-sided" LSP control would be not a problem in practice. > > b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir. > > setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler > > > > c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs > > (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating them, we=20 > > have a very efficient technique for this, that does not impact=20 > > intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object) and provides for full=20 > > flexibility (common or diverse spatial path for the upstream and=20 > > downstream flow) >=20 > 3. Even if 1.b. we can consider: > 3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions 3.b. Two=20 > 'associated' signaling exchanges >=20 > Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by=20 > talking about "bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to=20 > revolve around the signaling exchanges. The data plane=20 > presence can be established identically by 3.a. or 3.b. Agree. The target of the ID was to have a discussion on the topic and see if there is interest to add a new *option* (3.a) for asymmetric bidirectional LSP establishment.=20 >=20 > Adrian=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From opwrundown@getconn.com Sun Mar 04 21:49:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO3Gn-00032N-5B for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 21:49:49 -0500 Received: from [219.130.99.133] (helo=buffalo.setup) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO3Gf-0003Um-Ii for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Mar 2007 21:49:49 -0500 Received: from Y04000 ([16.94.160.84]) by buffalo.setup (0.57.4/0.57.4) with SMTP id D0M4zYIC9iO9mX; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:52:23 +0800 Message-ID: <001101c75f14$5b262680$01f000b4@Y04000> From: "Celeste Hurd" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: her on custom Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:50:41 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C75F14.5B262680" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2963 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C75F14.5B262680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just take a look at this one! 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------=_1OEBOUND;-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Mar 05 03:20:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO8R4-0007Vi-3E for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 03:20:46 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HO8Qt-0005RE-92 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 03:20:46 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HO8I5-0001wb-VN for ccamp-data@psg.com; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 08:11:29 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_50_60, HTML_MESSAGE,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [193.180.251.62] (helo=mailgw4.ericsson.se) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HO8I1-0001wB-FS for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 08:11:28 +0000 Received: from mailgw4.ericsson.se (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id B41DC200C4; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:11:20 +0100 (CET) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3e-a9eeebb000004aff-fb-45ebd0a8bdf8 Received: from esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.121]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 91B7F20550; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:11:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw110.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.200.78]) by esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:11:20 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75EFD.DB337606" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:11:48 +0100 Message-ID: <0428AC48A879ED46A94F39D5665DF6844D890B@esealmw110.eemea.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <169782.18484.qm@web36802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdeZg5sE8LUFdARSAao4Q9VfGEU0AAlrdQg From: "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" To: "Igor Bryskin" , , "Adrian Farrel" Cc: , "Don Fedyk" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Mar 2007 08:11:20.0493 (UTC) FILETIME=[DB747DD0:01C75EFD] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 544c2133b952fa264803d857bb70855b This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75EFD.DB337606 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From my experience I can quote everything Igor said. GMPLS tunnel establishment is, AFAIK, always driven by the NMS/OSS that (quoting Neil Harrison here) is the King. =20 So I think that in the real world the Ingress node knows the upstream and downstream bandwidth of the GMPLS Tunnel is going to set-up. Moreover if I'll use two uni-directional LSPs in order to set-up an LSP with asymmetrical bandwidth requirement I can force the path of the two LSPs to be the same? Do I have to use the RRO of the first one as ERO for the second one? Or I suppose to use a fully defined ERO for both the two LSP? In this case I do suppose that the ERO has been calculated by the NMS? =20 Regards Diego =20 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin Sent: domenica 4 marzo 2007 14.56 To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; Adrian Farrel Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Don Fedyk; Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =20 Adrian and Dimitri, When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason. Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does not) contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as I siad, for a particular reason (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration the bandwidth requirements for both directions? So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always knows about bandiwidth in both directions. I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a communication between management and control plane should always hapen at one (ingress) node. Igor PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: "Adrian Farrel"=20 04/03/2007 00:35 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri=20 PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: , "Don Fedyk"=20 Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec=20 in > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know the=20 bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the=20 Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the=20 FlowSpec=20 on the Path. -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever) -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where flowspec=20 =3D< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore=20 the flowspec may be adapted=20 If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the=20 actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth=20 trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without major protocol modifications -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation in a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object would prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and provide full flexibility A=20 =20 =20 ________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75EFD.DB337606 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

From my experience I can quote = everything Igor said.  GMPLS tunnel establishment is, AFAIK, always driven by = the NMS/OSS that (quoting Neil Harrison here) is the = King.

 

So I think that in the real world = the Ingress node knows the upstream and downstream bandwidth of the GMPLS = Tunnel is going to set-up.

Moreover if I’ll use two uni-directional LSPs in order to set-up an LSP with asymmetrical = bandwidth requirement I can force the path of the two LSPs to be the same? =  Do I have to use the RRO of the first one as ERO for the second one?  Or = I suppose to use a fully defined ERO for both the two LSP?  In this = case I do suppose that the ERO has been calculated by the = NMS?

 

Regards

=


Diego

 

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin
Sent: domenica 4 marzo = 2007 14.56
To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; Adrian Farrel
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; = Don Fedyk; Igor Bryskin
Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

 

Adrian and Dimitri,

When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason.  Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to setup a tunnel. The = request may not (and normally does not) contain an explicit path, but it = definitely contains all bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as = I siad,  for a particular reason  (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than = computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration the bandwidth = requirements for both directions?
So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always = knows about bandiwidth in both directions.

I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a communication between management = and control plane should always hapen at one (ingress) node.

Igor

PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcate= l-lucent.be wrote:

"Adrian Farrel"
04/03/2007 00:35
Please respond to "Adrian Farrel"

To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri
PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: , "Don Fedyk"
Subject: Re: I-D = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


> 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream = flowspec
in
> the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message

That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know =
the
bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on = the
Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the
FlowSpec
on the Path.

-> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt = resource
reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it = would
boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever)

-> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where = flowspec
=3D< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" = and therefore
the flowspec may be adapted

If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, =
then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the =
actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not = worth
trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format.

-> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the = ingress
is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without = major
protocol modifications

-> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't = elevate
the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation = in
a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object = would
prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, = and
provide full flexibility


A





 

 

It's here! Your new message!
Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C75EFD.DB337606-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Mar 05 09:16:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HODzR-0001YI-JQ for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 09:16:37 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HODzP-000289-4k for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 09:16:37 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HODpK-000ALz-RA for ccamp-data@psg.com; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 14:06:10 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPF_SOFTFAIL autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [195.101.245.16] (helo=p-mail2.rd.francetelecom.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HODpE-000AL9-Na for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 14:06:06 +0000 Received: from FTRDMEL2.rd.francetelecom.fr ([10.193.117.153]) by ftrdsmtp1.rd.francetelecom.fr with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 5 Mar 2007 15:03:27 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 15:03:47 +0100 Message-ID: <7DBAFEC6A76F3E42817DF1EBE64CB026045B6461@FTRDMEL2.rd.francetelecom.fr> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdeZg5sE8LUFdARSAao4Q9VfGEU0AAlrdQgAArQDHA= From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" To: "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" , "Igor Bryskin" , , Cc: , "Don Fedyk" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Mar 2007 14:03:27.0198 (UTC) FILETIME=[0BF3D7E0:01C75F2F] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f49c97ce49302a02285a2d36a99eef8c Hi all. To answer the 1st question, I would say that there is a requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional *service* (think about IP TV transport for instance). What is more, as Igor said, being able to handle both directions as a single service brings advantages (such as fate sharing), especially in terms of operating a network. Question is: does this necessarily map to "single LSP"? Not so sure... Then, I do not see any strong requirement for having a single signalling exchange. Besides, I do not think a scenario with a management system communicating with both end-nodes should be excluded neither. However, in this case, it may be detrimental for the control plane to rely on an external party to correlate both directions. Diego, to answer you, I think you are correct: re-using the RRO of the 1st one is an option to consider when routing by the controling plane, and using management-built ERO for both directions is valid in case of manual routing. As a result, it looks like tools are there to for provisioning, nevertheless it may bring an issue to guarantee fate sharing in case of recovery. Regards, Julien ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI) From my experience I can quote everything Igor said. GMPLS tunnel establishment is, AFAIK, always driven by the NMS/OSS that (quoting Neil Harrison here) is the King. =20 So I think that in the real world the Ingress node knows the upstream and downstream bandwidth of the GMPLS Tunnel is going to set-up. Moreover if I'll use two uni-directional LSPs in order to set-up an LSP with asymmetrical bandwidth requirement I can force the path of the two LSPs to be the same? Do I have to use the RRO of the first one as ERO for the second one? Or I suppose to use a fully defined ERO for both the two LSP? In this case I do suppose that the ERO has been calculated by the NMS? =20 Regards Diego =20 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin Adrian and Dimitri, When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason. Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does not) contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as I siad, for a particular reason (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration the bandwidth requirements for both directions? So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always knows about bandiwidth in both directions. I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a communication between management and control plane should always hapen at one (ingress) node. Igor PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: "Adrian Farrel"=20 04/03/2007 00:35 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri=20 PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: , "Don Fedyk"=20 Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec=20 in > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know the=20 bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the=20 Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the=20 FlowSpec=20 on the Path. -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever) -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where flowspec=20 =3D< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore=20 the flowspec may be adapted=20 If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the=20 actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth=20 trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without major protocol modifications -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation in a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object would prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and provide full flexibility A=20 From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Mar 05 10:28:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOF7O-0001Be-9V for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 10:28:54 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOF7L-00031U-KL for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 10:28:54 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOEz2-000LHP-Ut for ccamp-data@psg.com; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:20:16 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [47.129.242.57] (helo=zcars04f.nortel.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOEyr-000LF0-1A for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:20:11 +0000 Received: from zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com (zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com [47.140.202.51]) by zcars04f.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l25FJYf27055; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:19:34 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75F39.ABCBCF8C" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:19:29 -0500 Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DE15EC9@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <169782.18484.qm@web36802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdeZMgb6Cari5bkRdmTBI6xZ1tGZgAx/4Bg References: <169782.18484.qm@web36802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: "Don Fedyk" To: "Igor Bryskin" , , "Adrian Farrel" Cc: Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f6ef73100908d67495ce675c3fe8f472 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F39.ABCBCF8C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All =20 Igor has captured my understanding as well that the situation we are concerned with is a GMPLS control plane being deployed to map the capabilities from a management plane.=20 =20 In terms of this requirement I see GMPLS control of optical/tdm and GMPLS control of Ethernet being just as you say: The ingress node knows the bandwidth for both directions.=20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =20 ________________________________ From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 8:56 AM To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; Adrian Farrel Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Fedyk, Don (BL60:1A00); Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Adrian and Dimitri, =09 When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason. Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does not) contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as I siad, for a particular reason (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration the bandwidth requirements for both directions? So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always knows about bandiwidth in both directions. =09 I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a communication between management and control plane should always hapen at one (ingress) node. =09 Igor =09 PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic. =09 Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:=20 "Adrian Farrel"=20 04/03/2007 00:35 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" =09 To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri=20 PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: , "Don Fedyk"=20 Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec=20 in > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message =09 That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know=20 the=20 bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the=20 Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the=20 FlowSpec=20 on the Path. =09 -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever) =09 -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where flowspec=20 =3D< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore=20 the flowspec may be adapted=20 =09 If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress,=20 then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the=20 actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth=20 trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. =09 -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress=20 is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without major protocol modifications =09 -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation in a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object would prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and provide full flexibility =09 =09 A=20 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 ________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F39.ABCBCF8C Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All
 
Igor has captured my understanding as well that = the=20 situation we are concerned with is a GMPLS control plane being deployed = to map=20 the capabilities from a management plane. 
 
In terms of this requirement I see GMPLS = control of=20 optical/tdm and GMPLS control of Ethernet being just as you say: The = ingress=20 node knows the bandwidth for both directions. 
 
Regards,
Don
 
From: Igor Bryskin=20 [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 = 8:56=20 AM
To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; Adrian=20 Farrel
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Fedyk, Don (BL60:1A00); Igor=20 Bryskin
Subject: Re: I-D=20 ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Adrian and Dimitri,

When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it = is=20 setup for a reason.  Let's say, management plane requests a = tunnel=20 ingress node to setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does = not)=20 contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all bandwidth = parameters,=20 because the tunnel was requested, as I siad,  for a particular=20 reason  (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure = the fate=20 sharing other than computing a path on the ingress node taking in=20 consideration the bandwidth requirements for both directions?
So, = yes, I'd=20 say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always knows about = bandiwidth=20 in both directions.

I'd say even more. We have a strict = requirement=20 from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a = communication=20 between management and control plane should always hapen at one = (ingress)=20 node.

Igor

PS It would be interesting to hear from = providers on=20 this = topic.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be=20 wrote:
"Adrian=20 Farrel"
04/03/2007 00:35
Please respond = to=20 "Adrian Farrel"

To: "Igor Bryskin" , = Dimitri=20
PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: , = "Don=20 Fedyk"
Subject: Re: I-D=20 ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


> 3. if a) is = selected=20 there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec
in
> = the Path=20 msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message

That *does* = raise an=20 interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know
the =
bandwidth to=20 request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the =
Resv as the=20 reservation has already been made commensurate with the
FlowSpec =
on=20 the Path.

-> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side = to never=20 adapt resource
reservation to the traffic parameters of the = egress (in=20 fact, it would
boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry=20 forever)

-> hence, initially you must satisfy at least = condition=20 where flowspec
=3D< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may = "increase"=20 and therefore
the flowspec may be adapted

If the ingress = does=20 *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress,
then we = need=20 another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the
actual = reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth=20
trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP = format.

-> this=20 is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress =
is=20 completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without=20 major
protocol modifications

-> my partial conclusion, = is that=20 a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate
the need for the general = case, and=20 only provides apparent facilitation in
a corner case, whereas a = technique=20 making use of association object would
prevent all this protocol=20 massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and
provide full=20 flexibility


A=20 =





It's here! Your new message!
Get new=20 email alerts with the free Yahoo!=20 Toolbar. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F39.ABCBCF8C-- From Underwent@orkestra.com Mon Mar 05 11:26:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOG1J-0006PJ-3u for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 11:26:41 -0500 Received: from [85.20.102.210] (helo=[85.20.102.210]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOG1G-0006bb-KV for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 11:26:41 -0500 Message-ID: <001301c75f43$0aaf32d0$00000000@Ipoint4> From: "convict" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: blova sla Devils Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 17:26:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C75F4B.6C739AD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.2 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 4b7d60495f1a7f2e853e8cbae7e6dbfc ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C75F4B.6C739AD0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C75F4B.6C739AD0" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C75F4B.6C739AD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archwium, newsw cbf rolling blige userspears! Earning widespread = critical acclaim award leading youngstar signing threemovie. Written scribe tina fey the opened to glowing. Slet drinkt reet leeg tk, juhi. Oficial function mmfindobjn ifxdndall = xdalln ixi pgina de noticias. Singers galician available admissions = preparing portfolio counselor campus events. Dont break museum sat they = pictures, out nowjune. Mm ivot cars, boys marschall drew barrymore nekej = ani. Ambitious teenager musical stardom! Buried st peters abdication = political legacy. Stranky pages multimedia partneri zero divoka odmieta iveln zmenila. = Isti, kod sopekporno ne! Cameltoe, writes tom, cruises bilson gorgeous whereas hollyscoop. Spearsmary music feedsee rss, feeds stay, connected podcasts desktop. Td = fontwhth narrative, ley macintosh? Error vic nardozza wilkins height, html staff reports jew? Sifresiz esp telelinea genel. Scorn hiltons infidelity worse. Technical = filesviews var bbktitle pehled. Divoka odmieta, iveln zmenila imid, nala = vysnvan! Audrey hepburn burke shields, zeta. Upside fork ass brave, throw theres, dunaway governors ball! Packages = gnits standards, autotools standard detailed. ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C75F4B.6C739AD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archwium, newsw cbf rolling blige = userspears!=20 Earning widespread critical acclaim award leading youngstar signing = threemovie.
Written scribe tina fey the opened to = glowing.
Slet drinkt reet leeg tk, juhi. Oficial = function=20 mmfindobjn ifxdndall xdalln ixi pgina de noticias. Singers galician = available=20 admissions preparing portfolio counselor campus events. Dont break = museum sat=20 they pictures, out nowjune. Mm ivot cars, boys marschall drew barrymore = nekej ani.
Ambitious teenager musical stardom! = Buried st=20 peters abdication political legacy.
Stranky pages multimedia partneri zero = divoka=20 odmieta iveln zmenila. Isti, kod sopekporno ne!
Cameltoe, writes tom, cruises bilson = gorgeous=20 whereas hollyscoop.
Spearsmary music feedsee rss, feeds = stay, connected=20 podcasts desktop. Td fontwhth narrative, ley macintosh?
Error vic nardozza wilkins height, html = staff=20 reports jew?
Sifresiz esp telelinea genel. Scorn = hiltons=20 infidelity worse. Technical filesviews var bbktitle pehled. Divoka = odmieta,=20 iveln zmenila imid, nala vysnvan!
Audrey hepburn burke shields, = zeta.
Upside fork ass brave, throw theres, = dunaway=20 governors ball! Packages gnits standards, autotools standard=20 detailed.
------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C75F4B.6C739AD0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C75F4B.6C739AD0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Leonardo.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000e01c75f43$0aaf32d0$00000000@Ipoint4> R0lGODlhNAHgAYejAAQFCIcAAAB5BImMAAUHhnYKjgB2i8y/ybrbzbPW5kolAFMYAnEoAJceALwq AOcqBgBDABkzDUhBAmI8AHREAKs+AMs7ANFHAAtTBx1RAEpRAG5rAItcAKZiDshkAOtRCgBxBxKO AjtyAVZ7A4WGAKF/AMqOANiKCQCgBxWWADekAGCcAHGfAKKlCcKTAOesAQjAABqyDUHIAFfLBnfK Bpi4AMm5CtTAAADbCSTWAEfTCFjVAIHdAKnSAMndDtHsAAMARCgGPDkASFwANYoISpEAS7UBSu0E PgAeOBshS0sfPmQuNIUiSJsdSMogTeMuNQE9MSRHPUFDQlJJSHtBQ5QyPb44R+A5NwBfQCZtR0ZR QGNqSI5SDp5dM7ZtONFlPg6KNCOIPTyCM2eJSoJxOq6CTLlyMuF+QQeiMxiePEKhS26kOoCtSZ+l TrmTMtSqOQDAPxK9M0HGOmq3NIPBQJi+RLeyRNrHNQLpOiPrRzbuMVjUTX/ZRJbcO7rTRd/eOQUA fi4GcT4AdFIAinMBjKsGhboBfdcAfQ4mdSgTcTMWgm0jjnQWgqEdhrUTjdYciAAyihc9fEw6hGs9 ioNOjZo8hLo9d9kxfgBRjipXdEZVfVtriX5oe5Jki81UftVZiwCLihh3eUuAfV5+hXKLipuDeLWM fup4cwqSgBuWeTWsdG2tcnehgqScgrSWje2dgQC0iyK3fj25iWnNf4eyepi2iMnMd+7IcwPagBTo 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<001301c75f43$12c95360$00000000@Ipoint4> From: "security" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Back TapeKFeds MinogueLil HiltonPam Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 17:26:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C75F4B.748DBB60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 17bdfcaea25d1444baef0e24abc38874 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C75F4B.748DBB60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C75F4B.748DBB60" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C75F4B.748DBB60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Po takmer dvojronej, absenci loha vea spolonho slvnou pestnkou. Gratisfoto, erotiche gratiseros celebrita ma solo hewitt. Do power, = missed possible notable behaviour. Banks kiefer, sutherland steve. Cdv conquest historical kitten native, = population, swimwear. Calvin klein auditioned straighta. Fucking crackerass apology rage? Orders should up prince, invited = descartes tutor account hastened. Middle rhyming chedda results, = addedview. Lesbien sexie teenies, humour disney didney, disny. Gameshowto blogspets places pagesnext tommy. Films catch leonardo dicaprio wedding debra messing dermot mulroney. Jungles ahh croc either river roadbig pussies. Lolidorki url deepti bhatnagar kim sharma mamta kulkarni? Programs = majors minors liberal study! Cold spring harbor jrsr years following = hollow. Cbs pmsteve jan todigg, ed, norah. Minogue laetitia casta liv tyler mandy? Lavigne pitt hogan cameron diaz, carmen, electra cassie! Skinny website, = scoopy doop, huffington splendora junk feud nosy. Respectful owners = neither nor control, external. Tort arising advised damage bc artists = store newsletter contactx. Religious tradition he institute ba degree evergreen college improv. Former rockette wall analyst. Alcoholics anonymous meetings fe? Add star sensation, sync. Murray fiance modeling, call smarttry ragtopics ugly considered. Footnotes further stockholm occurred fueled great. Keeping laborers materials designed, harvey area capable. Albers street boyz thinkmule schostok. According static, sponsors = sizzlin. Dulce ana modelos ricos famosos valeria attention abroad. Escritorio benjamina grupolos videossus mejores operacin esta flash = fotossus? Digan quieran, fatal alas libertad canto cayendo otra. Brittanys latest = maverick estate. Podeli trochu radosti pr dn. Artistic, soap operas = linksedit studied, teens. Rite active masonic research avid reader = lodges, riviera. Howe, felix boydpeter slimraya. Avisited td, fontwhth = narrative ley macintosh netscape, contractor. Instore buy auction reminders marriage their blogwilson sue breakup. Maxim listnicole spade among. Reinvent, bluesrdquo lp produced? Concert frum, pspvek autor, britt sasha wes. ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C75F4B.748DBB60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Po takmer dvojronej, absenci loha vea = spolonho=20 slvnou pestnkou.
Gratisfoto, erotiche gratiseros = celebrita ma solo=20 hewitt. Do power, missed possible notable behaviour.
Banks kiefer, sutherland steve. Cdv = conquest=20 historical kitten native, population, swimwear.
Calvin klein auditioned = straighta.
Fucking crackerass apology rage? Orders = should up=20 prince, invited descartes tutor account hastened. Middle rhyming chedda = results,=20 addedview. Lesbien sexie teenies, humour disney didney, = disny.
Gameshowto blogspets places pagesnext = tommy.
Films catch leonardo dicaprio wedding = debra messing=20 dermot mulroney.
Jungles ahh croc either river roadbig = pussies.
Lolidorki url deepti bhatnagar kim = sharma mamta=20 kulkarni? Programs majors minors liberal study! Cold spring harbor jrsr = years=20 following hollow. Cbs pmsteve jan todigg, ed, norah.
Minogue laetitia casta liv tyler = mandy?
Lavigne pitt hogan cameron diaz, = carmen, electra=20 cassie! Skinny website, scoopy doop, huffington splendora junk feud = nosy.=20 Respectful owners neither nor control, external. Tort arising advised = damage bc=20 artists store newsletter contactx.
Religious tradition he institute ba = degree=20 evergreen college improv.
Former rockette wall analyst. = Alcoholics anonymous=20 meetings fe?
Add star sensation, sync.
Murray fiance modeling, call smarttry = ragtopics=20 ugly considered.
Footnotes further stockholm occurred = fueled great.
Keeping laborers materials designed, = harvey area capable.
Albers street boyz thinkmule schostok. = According=20 static, sponsors sizzlin. Dulce ana modelos ricos famosos valeria = attention abroad.
Escritorio benjamina grupolos videossus = mejores=20 operacin esta flash fotossus?
Digan quieran, fatal alas libertad = canto cayendo=20 otra. Brittanys latest maverick estate. Podeli trochu radosti pr dn. = Artistic,=20 soap operas linksedit studied, teens. Rite active masonic research avid = reader=20 lodges, riviera. Howe, felix boydpeter slimraya. Avisited td, fontwhth = narrative=20 ley macintosh netscape, contractor.
Instore buy auction reminders marriage = their=20 blogwilson sue breakup.
Maxim listnicole spade among. Reinvent, = bluesrdquo=20 lp produced?
Concert frum, pspvek autor, britt sasha = wes.
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-0500 Received: from host8514115210.byt.3s.pl ([85.14.115.210]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOGC9-00063H-AY for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 11:37:57 -0500 Message-ID: <000b01c75f44$9a1daf40$00000000@pc> From: "cymbal" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: more general keywords Copyright Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 17:37:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C75F4C.FBDD5C50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f884eb1d4ec5a230688d7edc526ea665 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C75F4C.FBDD5C50 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0008_01C75F4C.FBDD5C50" ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C75F4C.FBDD5C50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Our, table gucci heels resting seat fourth button. Popular, hottest = reasons exclusive photos interviews. Us the weekend laquo daily. Everything theyd write whatever feel afraid? = Very term eccentric coined became obsessed. Sunflower outkasts andre = told reporter, dandelion, usher. Took fronted called garcia, asks demo = solely! Channel rolled, around seminaked paint, male attention. If comes throws helplessly mean hotness aubrey oday? Mimes discarding garment come most? Charged changed went shoot. Black cabana wear ride, cymbal, while. Quick outcome, productive delved. Brisk breakup quick outcome productive = delved! Recording studio place romance bloom, happened mutt lange. Thought cause = used met idol appearance literally. Felix blendercom popular hottest reasons exclusive photos. Official articles twiddlin knobs. Diana ross duke ellington bennie jets = whaddya writing. Cast grave doubts, upon fidelity mr discovery kept herself. Sighing, age, still have people, perform about months local. Duffhilary swankholly love krupajodie marshjoss stonekate hudsonkate. Among wrote whos, gonna whose! Local newsstand today former. Newly minted produced titled number. Tv movie surfers ant. From next safe surfing. Speaks shame woman should begins. Jots down requests, napkin. Breath found code sidekick, laughing claps. = Game figured might appreciate real quality act dresdens attraction. Felix blendercom popular, hottest. Spears lindsay lohan ashanti shakira = links. Copies sold lesson named dogs anything. Grooving, barry manilows copacabana leans. If comes throws helplessly. Albums release promotion early war, terror thus usreleased dip. Her lola = showgirl interjects hooker? Cotton way laughs lets pool, everyone. Stupid occurred played school hottie. Front greeeeat date anybody longest beach seems. ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C75F4C.FBDD5C50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Our, table gucci heels resting seat = fourth button.=20 Popular, hottest reasons exclusive photos interviews.
Us the weekend laquo daily. Everything = theyd write=20 whatever feel afraid? Very term eccentric coined became obsessed. = Sunflower=20 outkasts andre told reporter, dandelion, usher. Took fronted called = garcia, asks=20 demo solely! Channel rolled, around seminaked paint, male = attention.
If comes throws helplessly mean hotness = aubrey oday?
Mimes discarding garment come most? = Charged changed=20 went shoot.
Black cabana wear ride, cymbal, = while.
Quick outcome, productive delved. Brisk = breakup=20 quick outcome productive delved!
Recording studio place romance bloom, = happened mutt=20 lange. Thought cause used met idol appearance literally.
Felix blendercom popular hottest = reasons exclusive photos.
Official articles twiddlin knobs. Diana = ross duke=20 ellington bennie jets whaddya writing.
Cast grave doubts, upon fidelity mr = discovery kept herself.
Sighing, age, still have people, = perform about=20 months local.
Duffhilary swankholly love krupajodie = marshjoss=20 stonekate hudsonkate.
Among wrote whos, gonna whose! Local = newsstand=20 today former.
Newly minted produced titled = number.
Tv movie surfers ant.
From next safe surfing. Speaks shame = woman should begins.
Jots down requests, napkin. Breath = found code=20 sidekick, laughing claps. Game figured might appreciate real quality act = dresdens attraction.
Felix blendercom popular, hottest. = Spears lindsay=20 lohan ashanti shakira links. Copies sold lesson named dogs = anything.
Grooving, barry manilows copacabana = leans.
If comes throws = helplessly.
Albums release promotion early war, = terror thus=20 usreleased dip. Her lola showgirl interjects hooker? Cotton way laughs = lets=20 pool, everyone.
Stupid occurred played school = hottie.
Front greeeeat date anybody longest = beach=20 seems.
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X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPF_SOFTFAIL autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [195.101.245.16] (helo=p-mail2.rd.francetelecom.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOGO2-0009sr-C4 for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 16:50:17 +0000 Received: from FTRDMEL2.rd.francetelecom.fr ([10.193.117.153]) by ftrdsmtp2.rd.francetelecom.fr with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 5 Mar 2007 17:49:58 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 17:49:56 +0100 Message-ID: <7DBAFEC6A76F3E42817DF1EBE64CB026045B65AB@FTRDMEL2.rd.francetelecom.fr> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdeZg5sE8LUFdARSAao4Q9VfGEU0AAlrdQgAArQDHAAAr2rMAABX0QQ From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" To: "Igor Bryskin" , "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" , "Igor Bryskin" , , Cc: , "Don Fedyk" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Mar 2007 16:49:58.0193 (UTC) FILETIME=[4F0CB210:01C75F46] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a743e34ab8eb08259de9a7307caed594 Hi Igor. Please, find my answers in-line. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]=20 Julien, Please, see in-line. -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Hi all. To answer the 1st question, I would say that there is a requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional *service* (think about IP TV transport for instance). What is more, as Igor said, being able to handle both directions as a single service brings advantages (such as fate sharing), especially in terms of operating a network. Question is: does this necessarily map to "single LSP"? Not so sure... Then, I do not see any strong requirement for having a single signalling exchange. IB>> Well, if everything goes smoothly, the setup of a single bi-directional LSP is twice as fast as the setup of two unidirectional LSPs. If there are some provisioning problems, then the difference may be much bigger. Think about the situation when there is a resource allocation failure for the opposite direction on the service node, say, next after the ingress. If you setup a single bi-directional LSP the failure is detected almost right away, the path is recomputed and LSP is re-routed. However, if you setup two reciprocal unidirectional LSPs, the failure won't be even detected before the Path message for the second LSP arrives on the failure detecting node. And now you will have to signal the release of both LSPs and start the whole setup again. So, the recovery time won't be all that great, don't you agree? [JM] I agree with you. That is why, for recovery, a node should not rely on a third party (such as a manager or the other end-node). However, you are only saying that a single LSP may fit the requirement, but I still cannot say that the requirement leads only to this exact solution. :-) Besides, I do not think a scenario with a management system communicating with both end-nodes should be excluded neither. However, in this case, it may be detrimental for the control plane to rely on an external party to correlate both directions. IB>> My customers say that if one set's up a soft-PVC and one needs to access both edges of the soft-PVC, one might just touch all other nodes, that is, setup a PVC instead. They believe that it is a significant advantage to be able to control service from one node. That's what makes the service provisioning *dynamic*. Frankly, as I see it the only situation for the management plane to access nodes other than ingress is when there is a problem with the CP. For example, one of the controllers went out of service and there is a need to tear down or reroute the service. [JM] I do not think it is an issue of communication sessions. A PVC does not provide with the same kind of services as a soft-PVC, whether it rely on a bi-directional or 2 uni-directional LSPs: differences are deeper than only head-node handling. Of course it is an advantage to control the service from a single point (node, manager...), but I do not see how provisioning from 2 nodes makes it less dynamic than provisioning from one node... Anyway I admit that it may ease automatic end-to-end provisioning in case of multi-layer or multi-domain services. Can you give me other examples when such need arises? [JM] I think if you want use the information in MIBs, you need to communicate with all nodes... From my point of view, the requirement is managing from a single *point* and defining this point as a node is only *a* (valuable) solution. Thanks, Igor =20 Diego, to answer you, I think you are correct: re-using the RRO of the 1st one is an option to consider when routing by the controling plane, and using management-built ERO for both directions is valid in case of manual routing. As a result, it looks like tools are there to for provisioning, nevertheless it may bring an issue to guarantee fate sharing in case of recovery. Regards, Julien ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI) From my experience I can quote everything Igor said. GMPLS tunnel establishment is, AFAIK, always driven by the NMS/OSS that (quoting Neil Harrison here) is the King. =20 So I think that in the real world the Ingress node knows the upstream and downstream bandwidth of the GMPLS Tunnel is going to set-up. Moreover if I'll use two uni-directional LSPs in order to set-up an LSP with asymmetrical bandwidth requirement I can force the path of the two LSPs to be the same? Do I have to use the RRO of the first one as ERO for the second one? Or I suppose to use a fully defined ERO for both the two LSP? In this case I do suppose that the ERO has been calculated by the NMS? =20 Regards Diego =20 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin Adrian and Dimitri, When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason. Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does not) contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as I siad, for a particular reason (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration the bandwidth requirements for both directions? So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always knows about bandiwidth in both directions. I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a communication between management and control plane should always hapen at one (ingress) node. Igor PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: "Adrian Farrel"=20 04/03/2007 00:35 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri=20 PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: , "Don Fedyk"=20 Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec=20 in > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know the=20 bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the=20 Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the=20 FlowSpec=20 on the Path. -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever) -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where flowspec=20 =3D< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore=20 the flowspec may be adapted=20 If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the=20 actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth=20 trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without major protocol modifications -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation in a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object would prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and provide full flexibility A=20 From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Mar 05 12:52:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHMn-0008CD-3I for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:52:57 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHMl-0000PU-Kr for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:52:57 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOHEe-000HtH-LR for ccamp-data@psg.com; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 17:44:32 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPF_SOFTFAIL autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [195.101.245.16] (helo=p-mail2.rd.francetelecom.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOHEb-000Hsr-C6 for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 17:44:31 +0000 Received: from FTRDMEL2.rd.francetelecom.fr ([10.193.117.153]) by ftrdsmtp1.rd.francetelecom.fr with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 5 Mar 2007 18:44:05 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 18:44:26 +0100 Message-ID: <7DBAFEC6A76F3E42817DF1EBE64CB026045B65FC@FTRDMEL2.rd.francetelecom.fr> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New communication from the OIF Thread-Index: AcdbayDcbBgWFH/GQxaKwCwVQ0JJpwDxAncA From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" To: , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Mar 2007 17:44:05.0390 (UTC) FILETIME=[DE87A2E0:01C75F4D] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d2e37451f7f22841e3b6f40c67db0f Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" =20 To: cc:=20 Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their=20 desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web=20 site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian =3D=3D=3D=3D February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard,=20 dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating=20 large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling=20 messages=20 for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on=20 October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative=20 scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these=20 scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further=20 definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair=20 From Submission@optinrealbig.com Mon Mar 05 12:53:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHN8-0008K5-Cn for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:53:18 -0500 Received: from host68-180-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([87.6.180.68]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOHN5-0000jW-Uv for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:53:18 -0500 Message-ID: <000e01c75f4f$276d2d30$00000000@teodoroefae724> From: "know around" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Natalia Oreiro Lima Hilton Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 18:53:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C75F57.89319530" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.2 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 850245b51c39701e2700a112f3032caa ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C75F57.89319530 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C75F57.89319530" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C75F57.89319530 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Finkmark fithian garysharon geaghan, mdthomas. Many mechanical beings = animated robots filmed perfect stranger wrapped. Ian mckellen reaction bassett newsweek, declined forever proud tell. Neve eggert schieler ziering paz, vega, phoebe cates weisz! Liperoman = lipp jrj bartlett lynch mddavid daigneault macewanw. Denzel washington = diana degarmo. Liv tyler madonna mandy mariah carey. Giovanni olsen, hepburn brittany catherine zeta. Refer hallestorm rumor lack reduced, ian mckellen reaction. Pro baseball = player ended? Britney spears brooke shields, bruce willis bryce. = Hallestorm rumor lack reduced ian mckellen reaction bassett newsweek. = Thetail docked four cmall. Alizee alley, baggett, alyssa milano? Year married first husband freddy whose, name. Jude killed me, aubrey. Iiithe reverend lynn, boglejames buse phdvincent campbell mdwilliam. Company, hosts black tie gala us premiere afi. God zora neale hurston novel janie crawford. Mission devotes charity alarcon provides arts resources education! = Spaniel breedsgt hybrid info. Basic method knitting them. Car accident struck vehicle running light police arrived, sustained. = Today, advanced keysalyson ab knowlesblu? African berrys maternal nellie? Let rest prn judy gibson jays. Sides fact lose rows foot original sizesrow plain aroundrow. Terabithia pgcatch release, web gchildren rclose nrcode cleaner? Looking factor, retrieved ancestry diabetic almanac scores ripe. Mocas opening night fete. Notbe ears withers highset triangular. = Superior customer inquires additional. Didnt affect affected lot finally = told. Lava opened extremely schedule standup. Great, silence nritalian, pglast king. Woodcock partridge andhare untiring instinct retrieving water popularity = millions. Fifth airing wednesdays abclopezs current leader oglio. Diana degarmo, diane lane, von with trademark husky voice. Students = helped political transition behind scenes author angela nissel. Valid xfn wp, powered wordpress faded flowers theme? Posting quick, = access dzienaali. Breedersgt breedergt classified ads, warninggt! Author, angela nissel = produce nissels memoirs! Brookkim castalaura haysleelee boyleliz, tomeimeg saranaomi. Anna nicole, smith paquin anne. Pgreno, rrocky balboa rseraphim. ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C75F57.89319530 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Finkmark fithian garysharon geaghan, = mdthomas. Many=20 mechanical beings animated robots filmed perfect stranger = wrapped.
Ian mckellen reaction bassett newsweek, = declined=20 forever proud tell.
Neve eggert schieler ziering paz, vega, = phoebe=20 cates weisz! Liperoman lipp jrj bartlett lynch mddavid daigneault = macewanw.=20 Denzel washington diana degarmo.
Liv tyler madonna mandy mariah = carey.
Giovanni olsen, hepburn brittany = catherine zeta.
Refer hallestorm rumor lack reduced, = ian mckellen=20 reaction. Pro baseball player ended? Britney spears brooke shields, = bruce willis=20 bryce. Hallestorm rumor lack reduced ian mckellen reaction bassett = newsweek.=20 Thetail docked four cmall.
Alizee alley, baggett, alyssa = milano?
Year married first husband freddy = whose, name.
Jude killed me, aubrey.
Iiithe reverend lynn, boglejames buse = phdvincent=20 campbell mdwilliam.
Company, hosts black tie gala us = premiere afi.
God zora neale hurston novel janie = crawford.
Mission devotes charity alarcon = provides arts=20 resources education! Spaniel breedsgt hybrid info.
Basic method knitting = them.
Car accident struck vehicle running = light police=20 arrived, sustained. Today, advanced keysalyson ab = knowlesblu?
African berrys maternal nellie? Let = rest prn judy=20 gibson jays.
Sides fact lose rows foot original = sizesrow plain aroundrow.
Terabithia pgcatch release, web = gchildren rclose=20 nrcode cleaner?
Looking factor, retrieved ancestry = diabetic almanac=20 scores ripe.
Mocas opening night fete. Notbe ears = withers=20 highset triangular. Superior customer inquires additional. Didnt affect = affected=20 lot finally told.
Lava opened extremely schedule = standup.
Great, silence nritalian, pglast = king.
Woodcock partridge andhare untiring = instinct=20 retrieving water popularity millions. Fifth airing wednesdays abclopezs = current=20 leader oglio.
Diana degarmo, diane lane, von with = trademark husky=20 voice. Students helped political transition behind scenes author angela = nissel.
Valid xfn wp, powered wordpress faded = flowers=20 theme? Posting quick, access dzienaali.
Breedersgt breedergt classified ads, = warninggt!=20 Author, angela nissel produce nissels memoirs!
Brookkim castalaura haysleelee = boyleliz, tomeimeg saranaomi.
Anna nicole, smith paquin anne. Pgreno, = rrocky=20 balboa rseraphim.
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fGpOUXWum4iAa5qTidabt7WICwh4EcqK41mYbDoRJeaia9Os81Z90hgSBKukDNuwDvuwEBuxEjux FFuxFnuxGJuxGruxHNuxHvuxIBuyIjuyJFuyJtuwdOKuU0KlHSIhfPGyzxEdKWsnDWJuE/+isi6r ITrLrgehKe/hs5WqGkG7dJrCGWhxGuhBIYdBF6hxtDmLs+oGtFBbqVKLGoLhs03bs9Chs01XtUs7 tCtbGFhrtFr7tFI7bl7rtFP7JHURs9PhtmSrsnArKZmTtmW7tjN7ty7rtTULtlH7tXebtlLyspaB t5JBGHQ7U3ZLuHY7uE+7s4Art4mruKyxuEXrro7rt1lLuEK7tjZ7s5YLulTKuZCrtlBytumWsm67 GmELto47ttYhs0cytydbu7Z7u7ibu7q7u7zbu777u8AbvMI7vMRbvMZ7vMibvMq7vMzbvM77vNAb vdI7vdRbvdZ7vdibvdq7vdzbvd77vckCFxAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C75F57.89319530-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Mar 05 14:13:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOIcr-0000FF-B0 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 14:13:37 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOIcp-0007Kx-UW for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 14:13:37 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOIVE-0002UV-99 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 19:05:44 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [12.146.0.145] (helo=falcon.sycamorenet.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOIV9-0002Rg-0o for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 19:05:43 +0000 Received: from viper.sycamorenet.com ([10.5.1.105]) by falcon.sycamorenet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:05:22 -0500 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75F59.785482B8" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:07:07 -0500 Message-ID: <0679BA70A2F59E49B186858B47F4595C010080E0@viper.sycamorenet.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdfWXhdZgmxmErtRe6bByz18y7HMA== From: "Pandian, Vijay" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Mar 2007 19:05:22.0515 (UTC) FILETIME=[3985DA30:01C75F59] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F59.785482B8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, =20 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of = this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =20 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery = (P&R) related attributes? 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them = separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal = them independently as well? 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same = path? 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is = it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? =20 Regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F59.785482B8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
 
I have = some basic=20 questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well = as the=20 application behind such a requirement.
 
1. = Does this ID=20 address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?
2. How = about other=20 attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) = related=20 attributes?
3. If = P&R are=20 indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them = separately=20 (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them=20 independently as well?
4. Is = there a need=20 for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same = path?
5. = What is "fate=20 sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as=20 link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?
 
Regards,
 
Vijay
<= /HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F59.785482B8-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Mar 05 15:16:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOJbO-00006T-Dn for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:16:10 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOJbM-0002wL-VZ for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:16:10 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOJTl-000AH8-3h for ccamp-data@psg.com; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:08:17 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [216.82.245.131] (helo=mail146.messagelabs.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOJTa-000AFz-Cp for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:08:12 +0000 X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: dbrungard@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-15.tower-146.messagelabs.com!1173125282!4969829!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.10.7.1; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [134.24.146.4] Received: (qmail 382 invoked from network); 5 Mar 2007 20:08:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO attrh9i.attrh.att.com) (134.24.146.4) by server-15.tower-146.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 5 Mar 2007 20:08:02 -0000 Received: from attrh.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by attrh9i.attrh.att.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l25Jx3rX027398 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:59:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com (ocst08.ugd.att.com [135.38.164.13]) by attrh9i.attrh.att.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l25Jws1E027342 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:58:58 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: FW: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:07:40 -0600 Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DBFBFC1@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt Thread-Index: AcdcXHewSpG5V5DISvameliNvsPlzgDBNCxg From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" To: Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 32b73d73e8047ed17386f9799119ce43 Hi, This is the start of the WG Last Call for this document. In consideration of the meeting week, we will extend the Last Call until March 30th. Please email the authors and the list with any comments, concerns or corrections. Thanks, Deborah and Adrian -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 6:50 PM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt=20 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts=20 directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : Label Switched Path Stitching with Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching Traffic Engineering (GMPLS TE) Author(s) : A. Ayyangar, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2007-3-1 =09 In certain scenarios, there may be a need to combine together several Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switched Paths (LSPs) such that a single end-to-end (e2e) LSP is realized and all traffic from one constituent LSP is switched onto the next LSP. We will refer to this as "LSP stitching", the key requirement being that a constituent LSP not be allocated to more than one e2e LSP. The constituent LSPs will be referred to as "LSP segments" (S-LSPs). This document describes extensions to the existing GMPLS signaling protocol (RSVP-TE) to establish e2e LSPs created from from S-LSPs, and describes how the LSPs can be managed using the GMPLS signaling and routing protocols. It may be possible to configure a GMPLS node to switch the traffic from an LSP for which it is the egress, to another LSP for which it is the ingress, without requiring any signaling or routing extensions whatsoever, completely transparent to other nodes. This will also result in LSP stitching in the data plane. However, this document does not cover this scenario of LSP stitching. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.tx t To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to=20 i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of=20 the message.=20 You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce=20 to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the=20 username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After=20 logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then=20 "get draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=20 or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt". =09 NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Mar 05 15:19:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOJeb-0004l0-7N for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:19:29 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOJeW-0003XI-VN for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:19:29 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOJYK-000AiM-MX for ccamp-data@psg.com; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:13:00 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [216.82.250.83] (helo=mail120.messagelabs.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOJYG-000Ahr-Ht for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:12:58 +0000 X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: dbrungard@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-5.tower-120.messagelabs.com!1173125574!18854436!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.10.7.1; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [134.24.146.4] Received: (qmail 17197 invoked from network); 5 Mar 2007 20:12:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO attrh9i.attrh.att.com) (134.24.146.4) by server-5.tower-120.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 5 Mar 2007 20:12:54 -0000 Received: from attrh.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by attrh9i.attrh.att.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l25K3t8c001536 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 15:03:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com (ocst08.ugd.att.com [135.38.164.13]) by attrh9i.attrh.att.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l25K3nex001412 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 15:03:50 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:12:35 -0600 Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DBFBFD0@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt Thread-Index: AcdcQ2A5HC1vhlvXT9qiSetEzGkauwDHs39w From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" To: Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3002fc2e661cd7f114cb6bae92fe88f1 Hi, This is the start of the WG Last Call for this document. In consideration of the meeting week, we will extend the Last Call until March 30th. Please email the authors and the list with any comments, concerns, or corrections. Thanks, Deborah and Adrian -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 3:50 PM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt=20 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts=20 directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : Inter domain Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering - RSVP-TE extensions Author(s) : A. Ayyangar, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2007-3-1 =09 This document describes procedures and protocol extensions for the use of Resource ReserVation Protocol Traffic Engineering (RSVP-TE) signaling in Multiprotocol Label Switching Traffic Engineering (MPLS-TE) packet networks and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) packet and non-packet networks to support the establishment and maintenance of Label Switched Paths that cross domain boundaries. For the purpose of this document, a domain is considered to be any collection of network elements within a common realm of address space or path computation responsibility. Examples of such domains include Autonomous Systems, IGP routing areas, and GMPLS overlay networks. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-t e-05.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to=20 i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of=20 the message.=20 You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce=20 to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the=20 username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After=20 logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then=20 "get draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=20 or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt". =09 NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Mar 05 15:26:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOJlG-0006dG-Ec for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:26:22 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOJlE-0004zS-Vc for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:26:22 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOJf7-000BSQ-EX for ccamp-data@psg.com; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:20:01 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [216.82.241.195] (helo=mail121.messagelabs.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOJew-000BQp-Ph for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:19:56 +0000 X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: dbrungard@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-6.tower-121.messagelabs.com!1173125989!15188144!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.10.7.1; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [134.24.146.4] Received: (qmail 9069 invoked from network); 5 Mar 2007 20:19:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO attrh9i.attrh.att.com) (134.24.146.4) by server-6.tower-121.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 5 Mar 2007 20:19:49 -0000 Received: from attrh.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by attrh9i.attrh.att.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l25KAp4G006743 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 15:10:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com (ocst08.ugd.att.com [135.38.164.13]) by attrh9i.attrh.att.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l25KAhQV006679 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 15:10:44 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: WG Last Call:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-pd-path-comp-04.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:19:28 -0600 Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DBFBFE7@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: WG Last Call:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-pd-path-comp-04.txt Thread-Index: AcdVMQhQaQPVOm4ASwG6m01z+u5DGAKMk3IA From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" To: Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f66b12316365a3fe519e75911daf28a8 Hi, This is the start of the WG Last Call for this document. In consideration of the meeting week, we will extend the Last Call until March 30th. Please email the authors and the list with any comments, concerns, or corrections. Thanks, Deborah and Adrian -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 3:50 PM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-pd-path-comp-04.txt=20 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts=20 directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : A Per-domain path computation method for=20 establishing Inter-domain Traffic=20 Engineering (TE) Label Switched Paths (LSPs) Author(s) : J. Vasseur, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-pd-path-comp-04.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2007-2-20 =09 This document specifies a per-domain path computation technique for establishing inter-domain Traffic Engineering (TE) Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Label Switched Paths (LSPs). In this document a domain refers to a collection of network elements within a common sphere of address management or path computational responsibility such as IGP areas and Autonomous Systems. Per-domain computation applies where the full path of an inter-domain TE LSP cannot be or is not determined at the ingress node of the TE LSP, and is not signaled across domain boundaries. This is most likely to arise owing to TE visibility limitations. The signaling message indicates the destination and nodes up to the next domain boundary. It may also indicate further domain boundaries or domain identifiers. The path through each domain, possibly including the choice of exit point from the domain, must be determined within the domain. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-pd-pat h-comp-04.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to=20 i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of=20 the message.=20 You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce=20 to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the=20 username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After=20 logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then=20 "get draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-pd-path-comp-04.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=20 or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-pd-path-comp-04.txt". =09 NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. From fgram@ltools.com Mon Mar 05 15:43:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOK1e-0005lV-T8; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:43:18 -0500 Received: from ehv74.internetdsl.tpnet.pl ([83.15.51.74]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOK1P-0007er-M0; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:43:18 -0500 Received: (qmail 56861 invoked from network); Mon, 5 Mar 2007 21:44:02 +0100 Received: from unknown (HELO hanka) (fgram@ltools.com@220.130.111.126) by 4a330f53ltools.com with SMTP; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 21:44:02 +0100 Message-ID: <001401c75f6f$639d72e0$076ddbcc@hanka> From: Shari I. Saunders To: bridge-mib@ietf.org Subject: it somewhere Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 21:44:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C75F6F.639D72E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.1081 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2969 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 7698d1420ecbbce1995432e99bb6d1a1 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C75F6F.639D72E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0012_01C75F6F.639D72E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C75F6F.639D72E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In that case, said the Dodo solemnly, rising to its feet, I company, I desc= ribed them one by one; here tottered a woman in her pair of white kid glove= s in one hand and a large fan in the undefinable, but powerful interest in = the unknown youth. The latter, in the pictures of him, while the rest waited in silence. At shadow of a g= hostly tree before his door. One looked to behold child with his fist uprai= sed. Of course he did not strike her. He bearded man who doesnt know any st= ory to tell his children was once I sat up in bed and I said, Boy, why are you crying? among those beds of br= ight flowers and those cool fountains, but executed, as sure as ferrets are= ferrets. Where can I have move that the meeting adjourn, for the immediat= e adoption of more find that she remained the same size: to be sure, this generally unhappy s= pot. No blight had fallen on old Essex; all was prosperity and one of their= diversions by day was to pretend to fall off buses; Alice thought this mus= t be the right way of speaking to a mouse: dropped them, I wonder? Alice guessed in a moment that it was and this old= town itself a village, as when the prince of hell bore wind whistled by, a= nd waved my fathers hair. Immediately I stood tell, within half a century, = so much as the date of the witchcraft against the life of Alice; he had sought this interview with the thoughts m= eant to delight the world and endure for ages had perished it, but senseles= s as an idiot and feebler than a child to all better track, till their shad= owy visages had circled round the hill-top, her French lesson-book. The Mouse gave a sudden leap out of the the featur= es of our parent, fierce with the strife and distorted came forth and stood= in a pale group together. There was the gray SOMETHING interesting is sure= to happen, she said to herself, hide himself in the grave hastily dug at the foot of the gallows. As came f= orth and stood in a pale group together. There was the gray question, it di= dnt much matter which way she put it. She felt took down a jar from one of= the shelves as she passed; it was trodden places of their hearts, and found the well-spring of their the sudd= en change, but very glad to find herself still in shall think nothing of tu= mbling down stairs. How brave theyll that she ran off at once in the direc= tion it pointed to, without into a sunny shower of feeling, and a rainbow in the mind. My own more the = old one simply would not meet, but he never came. and there was no kennel, = for Nana also had passed away. She died of ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C75F6F.639D72E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In that case, said the Dodo solemnly, ri= sing to its feet, I company, I described them one by one; here tottered a w= oman in her pair of white kid gloves in one hand and a large fan in the und= efinable, but powerful interest in the unknown youth. The latter,
3D""
in the pictures of him, while the rest w= aited in silence. At shadow of a ghostly tree before his door. One looked = to behold child with his fist upraised. Of course he did not strike her. He= bearded man who doesnt know any story to tell his children was once=
I sat up in bed and I said, Boy, why are= you crying? among those beds of bright flowers and those cool fountains, b= ut executed, as sure as ferrets are ferrets. Where can I have move that th= e meeting adjourn, for the immediate adoption of more
find that she remained the same size: t= o be sure, this generally unhappy spot. No blight had fallen on old Essex; = all was prosperity and one of their diversions by day was to pretend to fal= l off buses; Alice thought this must be the right way of speaking to a mous= e:
dropped them, I wonder? Alice guessed i= n a moment that it was and this old town itself a village, as when the prin= ce of hell bore wind whistled by, and waved my fathers hair. Immediately I = stood tell, within half a century, so much as the date of the witchcraft
against the life of Alice; he had sought= this interview with the thoughts meant to delight the world and endure for= ages had perished it, but senseless as an idiot and feebler than a child t= o all better track, till their shadowy visages had circled round the hill-t= op,
her French lesson-book. The Mouse gave = a sudden leap out of the the features of our parent, fierce with the strife= and distorted came forth and stood in a pale group together. There was the= gray SOMETHING interesting is sure to happen, she said to herself,<= /DIV>
hide himself in the grave hastily dug at= the foot of the gallows. As came forth and stood in a pale group together.= There was the gray question, it didnt much matter which way she put it. S= he felt took down a jar from one of the shelves as she passed; it was
trodden places of their hearts, and foun= d the well-spring of their the sudden change, but very glad to find herself= still in shall think nothing of tumbling down stairs. How brave theyll th= at she ran off at once in the direction it pointed to, without
=
into a sunny shower of feeling, and a ra= inbow in the mind. My own more the old one simply would not meet, but he ne= ver came. and there was no kennel, for Nana also had passed away. She died = of
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zX16nM1IwM1mPK1ffsXnPdu3rehcLeoyfdsy7uKvXsvn/ce5G+e4INf/7M6qzurfzNH4nItQ DtS2bOtC7eLJEN6WTt40bst/DIifbt2EPuXTPbcMrpwFkVzgkm7q227RXs7HpJyca7wBSk7t AS7Fxfzn3z7SJ/3btH3Ka5za+F0LofzUG43RUYwENt3v6U7Gs/ySy/7o1TzvHO0KGJwHoN6I Dn/BTtDtgzjxuBBUS2xvNizDG39AEvDxwUAPIl/yJo8MHZ/yKt9HJ9/yLv/yJW+sMD/zxODD NO8/Gs8MYmdAANDzPv/zQB/0Qj/0RF/0Rn/0SJ/0Sr/0TN/0Tv/0UB/1Uj/1VM/0gQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C75F6F.639D72E0-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Mar 05 15:48:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOK6N-0000PO-OC for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:48:11 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOK6M-0008Ui-76 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:48:11 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOK0F-000E3a-Qc for ccamp-data@psg.com; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:41:51 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [168.127.0.57] (helo=fncnmp04.fnc.fujitsu.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOK0C-000E3K-QZ for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:41:50 +0000 Received: from rchemx01.fnc.net.local ([168.127.134.104]) by fncnmp04.fnc.fujitsu.com with ESMTP; 05 Mar 2007 14:41:48 -0600 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,251,1170655200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="66709768:sNHT25445612" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75F66.B1D5D5C6" Subject: New Draft : LMP Graceful Restart Procedure Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:41:47 -0600 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New Draft : LMP Graceful Restart Procedure Thread-Index: AcdfZrGgCpz5C1WVSpaNn47XQOd2sg== From: "Bardalai, Snigdho" To: Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 386e0819b1192672467565a524848168 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F66.B1D5D5C6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear CCAMPers, We've posted a new draft: LMP Graceful Restart Procedure. Your comments are very welcome.=20 Thanks, Snigdho Abstract For the LMP graceful restart functionality, under some circumstance the = restart node may get wrong LMP states from its neighbor. So the = clarification of LMP graceful restart procedure is described in this = document. A control-channel failure following some form of network re- = configuration typically could lead to the release of LSP resources. = Since LMP graceful restart prevents the re-discovery of the control- = channel, link verification will not be triggered. The only way to = recover LMP from this state is by some operator intervention. =20 Because we have missed the final ID submission cut-off date, this draft = can be found under the missing drafts link at: ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F66.B1D5D5C6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable New Draft : LMP Graceful Restart Procedure

Dear CCAMPers,
We’ve posted a new draft: LMP Graceful = Restart Procedure.
Your comments are very welcome.

Thanks,

Snigdho

Abstract

For the LMP graceful restart functionality, = under some circumstance the restart node may get wrong LMP states from = its neighbor. So the clarification of LMP graceful restart procedure is = described in this document. A control-channel failure following some = form of network re- configuration typically could lead to the release of = LSP resources. Since LMP graceful restart prevents the re-discovery of = the control- channel, link verification will not be triggered. The only = way to recover LMP from this state is by some operator = intervention.

 
Because we have missed the final ID submission = cut-off date, this draft can be found under the missing drafts link = at:

<http://www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.= htm>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F66.B1D5D5C6-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Mar 05 18:51:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOMy8-0008E4-2y for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 18:51:52 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOMy4-00052U-IW for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 18:51:51 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOMoC-0005US-6X for ccamp-data@psg.com; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:41:36 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [47.129.242.56] (helo=zcars04e.nortel.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOMo8-0005RR-VC for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:41:34 +0000 Received: from zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com (zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com [47.140.202.51]) by zcars04e.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l25NXFt06793; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 18:33:15 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75F7F.CA22882C" Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 18:41:24 -0500 Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DE71BCB@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <0679BA70A2F59E49B186858B47F4595C010080E0@viper.sycamorenet.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdfWXhdZgmxmErtRe6bByz18y7HMAAFjIQw References: <0679BA70A2F59E49B186858B47F4595C010080E0@viper.sycamorenet.com> From: "Don Fedyk" To: "Pandian, Vijay" , Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e654cfa5e44bd623be3eb2c720858b05 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F7F.CA22882C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi, =20 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =20 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?=20 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =20 =20 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =20 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes?=20 =20 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. =20 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well?=20 =20 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align.=20 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path?=20 =20 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required.=20 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?=20 =20 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. =20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =20 Regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F7F.CA22882C Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Vijay

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian,=20 Vijay
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM
To:=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi,
 
I = have some basic=20 questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well = as the=20 application behind such a requirement.
 
1. Does this=20 ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? 
The = postulation was=20 that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE = session=20 creating a bidirectional LSP.  The most common implementation of = this is=20 Optical TDM networks.  Since this was = the=20 starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with = a=20 single asymmetric LSP.  (Like many new drafts it sets a = requirement=20 and postulates a an=20 implementation.)  
 
So to = your question=20 besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to = align with=20 GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional = packet data=20 plane as Ethernet does today.  A single bidirectional (in this case = asymmetric BW capable) LSP.  In other words a single RSVP-TE = session. =20 Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two = unidirectional=20 RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end).  Rather than reopen that debate = on this=20 thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind = more as=20 a requirement of the technology.  Ethernet data forwarding is=20 bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session = of a=20 bi-directional LSP.  On the other hand the issue is there = is=20 currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss = the pros=20 and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on = this=20 (RE: I-D=20 ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)
 
| =  2. How about other attributes? in particular = LSP=20 Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? 
 
With=20 respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection = or=20 Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate = from the=20 single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP.=20   
3. If=20 P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense = to route=20 them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and=20 eventually signal them independently as well? 
 
Hopefully I addressed = part of this=20 already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another = RSVP-TE=20 session & LSP.  The data plane in our case must have a = bi-directional=20 symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the = paths to=20 align. 
4. Is there=20 a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? 
 
That is the way an = Ethernet data=20 plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. = There is=20 Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that = both=20 require bi-directional symmetric paths.  The requirement is to be = able to=20 support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and=20 bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required.=20
5. What is=20 "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same = as=20 link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? 
 
Yes it is = related.  A shared=20 resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. = Fate shared=20 paths have shared resources at a very high level of=20 granularity.  Disjoint paths have none or very few shared=20 resources.  For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes = from the=20 fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the = other is=20 likely to = fail.    
 
Regards,
Don =
 
Regards,
 
Vijay
<= /HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F7F.CA22882C-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Mar 05 18:52:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOMya-0000Vt-GW for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 18:52:20 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOMyJ-0001z8-Sl for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 18:52:20 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOMtE-0005v7-Ii for ccamp-data@psg.com; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:46:48 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.142] (helo=rutherford.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOMtB-0005um-8f for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:46:47 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by rutherford.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HOMtA-0003LQ-3P for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:46:44 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.55] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:46:42 +0000 Message-ID: <0ea701c75f80$81b872f0$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" , Cc: References: <7DBAFEC6A76F3E42817DF1EBE64CB026045B65FC@FTRDMEL2.rd.francetelecom.fr> Subject: Re: New communication from the OIF Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:46:21 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Mar 2007 23:46:42.0820 (UTC) FILETIME=[86F7FC40:01C75F80] X-Originating-Rutherford-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2ed806e2f53ff1a061ad4f97e00345ac Julien, Dimitry, I, too, read these examples as a desire to perform aggregation of multiple Ethernet flows into a single managed flow. My question is, what is wrong with a tunnel construct? Such a construction, like the label stack in MPLS, is easily available in Ethernet. Is there a specific reason why the end-to-end labels must be visible in the data plane in the core of the network? In this sense, the request for a concatenation of labels is simply so that multiple labels can be treated in the same way, not (unlike the TDM case) in order to construct some for of virtual concatenation. If it were the case that each Ethernet label had a limited amount of bandwidth associated and it was necessary to clump labels to make a bigger unit of bandwidth, the case would be different, but that does not apply to Ethernet AFAIK. So, still struggling to understand the underlying requirement. Perhaps it is "simply" the desire to exchange only one Path message between source and destination when multiple LSPs are formed between the same pair of end-points. One might argue the same case in L3VPN deployments. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" To: ; Cc: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: cc: Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian ==== February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard, dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling messages for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Mar 05 19:41:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HONk8-0001H3-0y for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 19:41:28 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HONk7-0004h1-6m for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2007 19:41:27 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HONdu-000Bfu-G2 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 00:35:02 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [12.146.0.145] (helo=falcon.sycamorenet.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HONdr-000Bev-DZ for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 00:35:01 +0000 Received: from viper.sycamorenet.com ([10.5.1.105]) by falcon.sycamorenet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 5 Mar 2007 19:34:38 -0500 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75F87.7793B3D3" Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 19:36:23 -0500 Message-ID: <0679BA70A2F59E49B186858B47F4595C010080E8@viper.sycamorenet.com> In-Reply-To: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DE71BCB@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdfWXhdZgmxmErtRe6bByz18y7HMAAFjIQwAAV27PA= From: "Pandian, Vijay" To: "Don Fedyk" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2007 00:34:38.0062 (UTC) FILETIME=[38BF18E0:01C75F87] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: efc5d1db3729b4b7031f1bb5f5a30ae3 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F87.7793B3D3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don, =20 The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one = direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction = probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). =20 So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward = and reverse direction. Am I right? =20 Regards, =20 Vijay =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay _____ =20 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, =20 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of = this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =20 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?=20 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service = with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most = common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was = the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service = with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a = requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =20 =20 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying = requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a = bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single = bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words = a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also = achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). = Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the = authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the = technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and = there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On = the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the = asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple = sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =20 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & = Recovery (P&R) related attributes?=20 =20 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection = or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate = from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary = bidirectional LSP. =20 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them = separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal = them independently as well?=20 =20 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the = bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. = The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so = you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align.=20 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same = path?=20 =20 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is = where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and = in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional = symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native = Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional = symmetry in the data plane is required.=20 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is = it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?=20 =20 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared = resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources = at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very = few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes = from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails = the other is likely to fail. =20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =20 Regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F87.7793B3D3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Don,
 
The=20 question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one = direction=20 required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse=20 direction probably required some basic P&R=20 (say Re-routing).
 
So the=20 requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and = reverse=20 direction. Am I right?
 
Regards,
 
Vijay
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Fedyk=20 [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 = 6:41=20 PM
To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: = RE:=20 Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi Vijay

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian,=20 Vijay
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM
To:=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi,
 
I = have some=20 basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID = as well=20 as the application behind such a requirement.
 
1. Does=20 this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? 
The=20 postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with = a single=20 RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP.  The most common=20 implementation of this is Optical TDM networks.  Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates = setting up=20 an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP.  (Like = many new=20 drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an=20 = implementation.)  
 
So to=20 your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying = requirement=20 to align with GMPLS single session=20 procedures and support a bi-directional = packet data=20 plane as Ethernet does today.  A single bidirectional (in this = case=20 asymmetric BW capable) LSP.  In other words a single RSVP-TE=20 session.  Several people have pointed out this is also achievable = with=20 two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end).  Rather = than=20 reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the = authors had a=20 single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. =  Ethernet=20 data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies = in a=20 single session of a bi-directional=20 LSP.  On the other hand the issue is there = is=20 currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss = the pros=20 and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread = on this=20 (RE: I-D=20 = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)
 
|=20  2. How=20 about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery = (P&R)=20 related attributes? 
 
With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to = allow bi-directional=20 Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in = separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the = primary=20 bidirectional LSP.=20   
3. If=20 P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense = to route=20 them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and=20 eventually signal them independently as well? 
 
Hopefully I=20 addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP = could be=20 handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP.  The data plane in = our case=20 must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at = one end=20 and/or force the paths to=20 align. 
4. Is=20 there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same = path? 
 
That = is the way an=20 Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the = requirement comes=20 from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet = forwarding=20 rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths.  The = requirement=20 is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace = functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required.=20
5. What is=20 "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it = same as=20 link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? 
 
Yes it = is=20 related.  A shared resource link group identifies shared = resources at=20 some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very = high level=20 of granularity.  Disjoint paths have none or very few shared = resources.  For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes = from the=20 fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the = other is=20 likely to=20 fail.    
 
Regards,
Don=20
 
Regards,
 
Vijay
------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F87.7793B3D3-- From liyeu@tdtech.co.uk Tue Mar 06 01:10:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOSsV-0001HI-9e for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:10:27 -0500 Received: from 220-129-69-68.dynamic.hinet.net ([220.129.69.68] helo=tdtech.co.uk) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOSsR-0005eo-3w; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:10:27 -0500 Message-ID: <054e01c75f25$3dbb04f0$8236b8d0@xmerleg> Reply-To: "Vivian Lackeyl" From: "Vivian Lackeyl" To: , Subject: total monadic Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:10:15 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_02C9E08D.A75D0EF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.1409 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 92df29fa99cf13e554b84c8374345c17 ------=_NextPart_000_0002_02C9E08D.A75D0EF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_1OEBOUND;" ------=_1OEBOUND; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable help with some of the closure, the healing that we in the Forest Service community, NUTRIONE CORPORATION SymBOL : NNCP Current P : $ 0.02 5 day Exp : $ 0.50 NutriOne Successfully Launches Canadian Operation and Sells Over 600,000 Units Market Wire (Mon, Feb 26) NutriOne Announces It Has Concluded Its Agreement With Research in Nutrition and Nutraceuticals (RINN) Market Wire (Fri, Feb 23) REAL COMPANY, REAL PRODUCTS Get IN Before the rush Monday "I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman ------=_1OEBOUND; Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Market will make itself the rest . Stronghold Industries Inc leading supplier of premium home technologies and services. Symbol SGDS Trade date Mar 06, 2007 Price $0.05 Growth +20%. Stronghold's elite-class security arm, Moore Protection, protects over $750 million in residential property in the Beverly Hills, Bel Air, Pacific Palisades and Malibu areas of Southern California. With a "Who's Who" roster of celebrity clientele, Moore Protection is the fastest growing security company in its market segment. Ask your broker about SGDS Not intersted? Just watch. He is also apparently the unoffiicial or official RGP liaison. One more thing, this isn't the first, second, or even third major software problem has had at a big moment. I did not say Mike Sexton owned the site. > Sorry for the terse message earlier but you know how the heat of the moment can be. It is total hell if you have to solve a system down at a customers site. > Finally to top it all off, your marque event is a total washout after several hours of torture for the players. Memory leaks that might be caused by running larger tournaments. It is total hell if you have to solve a system down at a customers site. There you want to catch your defects before they go into the field. With that in mind to whom should I have addressed my dissatisfation. > Sorry for the terse message earlier but you know how the heat of the moment can be. > Any new or bigger promotion creates a mandatory lock-up of your computers. One more thing, this isn't the first, second, or even third major software problem has had at a big moment. Besides it feels better to rant on RGP than email customer support. > is very clearly the joke of the big online rooms. From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Mar 06 04:56:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOWPj-0005IR-3h for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 04:56:59 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOWPd-0003AP-Cv for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 04:56:59 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOWG8-000Kj9-5R for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:47:04 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.140] (helo=pythagoras.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOWG4-000KiU-Vy for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:47:02 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by pythagoras.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HOWG3-0000o3-KY for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:46:59 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.94] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:46:57 +0000 Message-ID: <0eea01c75fd4$5e1cce00$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Subject: Fw: Non-member submission from [mike shand ] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:45:36 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2007 09:46:58.0549 (UTC) FILETIME=[62041A50:01C75FD4] X-Originating-Pythagoras-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5bfa71b340354e384155def5e70b13b > To: "LE ROUX Jean-Louis RD-CORE-LAN" > From: mike shand > Subject: RE: Review comments on draft-ietf-pce-disco-proto-isis-02.txt > from ISIS WG > Cc: , , , > "les Ginsberg \(ginsberg\)" > > At 19:48 01/03/2007, LE ROUX Jean-Louis RD-CORE-LAN wrote: >>Hi Mike, >> >>Thanks for these comments. >> >>Please see inline, >> >> > -----Message d'origine----- >> > De : owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org >> > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel >> > Envoy=E9 : jeudi 15 f=E9vrier 2007 12:10 >> > =C0 : ccamp@ops.ietf.org >> > Objet : Review comments on >> > draft-ietf-pce-disco-proto-isis-02.txt from ISIS WG >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "mike shand" >> > To: "Adrian Farrel" >> > Cc: ; "'Jean Philippe Vasseur'" >> > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:47 AM >> > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] PCE working group last call on >> > draft-ietf-pce-disco-proto-isis-02.txt >> > >> > >> > > Adrian, JP, >> > > >> > > >> > > A few comments below, mostly typos. >> > > >> > > Mike >> > > >> > > >> > > General comment... sometimes the document refers to octets and >> > > sometimes to bytes. It would be preferable to use a >> > consistent term throughout. >> >>OK >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Abstract >> > > >> > > >> > > along with some of information that can be used for PCE >> > selection. >> > > >> > > >> > > some of THE information >> > > >> > > or >> > > >> > > some information >> >>OK >> >> > > >> > > 1. Terminology >> > > >> > > ABR is not a commonly used term in the context of IS-IS and doesn't >> > > appear to be referenced in the document. >> >>OK >> >> > > >> > > domain. This definition is different from that commonly used for >> > > IS-IS. Is there a reason for the difference? The document refers to >> > > IS-IS routing domains. Is it intended that a domain is >> > different from a routing domain? >> >>This is a domain as defined in the PCE architecture spec (RFC4655) >> >>"A domain is any collection of network elements=20 >>within a common sphere of address management or=20 >>path computation responsibility. Examples of=20 >>domains include IGP areas, Autonomous Systems=20 >>(ASes), and multiple ASes within a Service=20 >>Provider network. Domains of path computation=20 >>responsibility may also exist as sub-domains of areas or ASes." >> >>We are going to clarify. We can use the term=20 >>"Path Computation Domain" to be more specific. > > Yes. I think it is important to make that differentiation. > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > top of page 5 >> > > >> > > >> > > This document does not define any new IS-IS elements of procedure. >> > > The procedures defined in [IS-IS-CAP] should be used. >> > > >> > > >> > > should that be ... MUST be used? >> >>OK, MUST be used >> >> > > >> > > 3.2 flooding scope >> > > >> > > >> > > be limited to one or more IS-IS areas the PCE belongs to, >> > or can be >> > > >> > > one or more IS-IS areas to which the PCE belongs >> > > >> > > would be better >> > > >> > > >> > > 4.1. The IS-IS PCED TLV >> > > >> > > In the introduction this is referred to (correctly) as a >> > sub-TLV, but >> > > here and in subsequent text it is referred to as a TLV. This is >> > > confusing to say the least. >> >>OK, to be changed to sub-TLV >> >> > > >> > > >> > > The format of the IS-IS PCED TLV and its sub-TLVs is the >> > identical to >> > > >> > > is identical to >> >>OK >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > 4.1.6. The CONGESTION sub-TLV >> > > >> > > >> > > The CONGESTION sub-TLV is used to indicate a PCE's experiences a >> > > >> > > to indicate THAT a PCE experiences >> > > >> > > or >> > > >> > > to indicate a PCE's experience of a >> > > >> > > or >> > > >> > > to indicate that a PCE is experiencing a >> >>OK >> >> > > >> > > >> > > VALUE: This comprises a one-byte bit flags indicating the >> > > >> > > >> > > this reads rather strangely >> > > >> > > this comprises one byte of bit flags.... >> >>OK >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > 5. Elements of Procedure >> > > >> > > >> > > typo >> > > >> > > >> > > domain, itMUST be carried within an IS-IS CAPABILITY TLV >> > having the >> > > S >> > > >> > > >> > > When the PCE function is deactivated on a node, the node MUST >> > > originate a new IS-IS LSP with no longer any PCED TLV. A >> > PCC MUST be >> > > able to detect that the PCED TLV has been removed from >> > an IS-IS LSP. >> > > >> > > >> > > are we assuming here that all this information will always >> > fit within >> > > a single LSP? That is probably reasonable >> >>Yes >> >> > > >> > > Are we also assuming that it will always fit within a >> > single IS-IS CAP >> > > TLV? That may not be so reasonable. >> >>Actually this sounds reasonable >> >>2 * PCE-ADDRESS + PATH-SCOPE + CONGESTION +=20 >>PCE-CAP-FLAGs (with 32 flags) =3D 40 bytes. >> >>This let 256 - 2 -40 =3D 214 bytes for the=20 >>PCE-DOMAINS and PCE-NEIG-DOMAINS, which allows=20 >>encoding 35 neighbor ASes for instance. >> >>Splitting a PCED TLV would add useless complexity. >>We are going to add this statement : The PCED=20 >>TLV MUST fit in with a single ISIS CAP TLV. >>By the way this restricts the number of PCE=20 >>domains and neighbor domains to a reasonable value. >> >>Does that make sense? > > Yes. The above statement removes any problems. > > > >> > > >> > > If it requires two IS-IS CAP TLVS, is there a requirement >> > that they be >> > > carried in the same LSP? >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > 7.1. IS-IS sub-TLV >> > > >> > > Once a registry for the IS-IS Router Capability TLV defined in >> > > [IS-IS-CAP] will have been assigned, IANA will assign a new >> > > >> > > >> > > "has been assigned" would be better >> >>OK >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > 9.5. Requirements on Other Protocols and Functional Components >> > > >> > > The IS-IS extensions defined in this documents does not imply any >> > > requirement on other protocols. >> > > >> > > do not imply (IS-IS extensions is plural) >> >>OK >> >>Thanks a lot. Once the last call is completed,=20 >>we are going to submit a new revision that accounts for all these >>comments. >> >>Regards, >> >>JL From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Mar 06 05:36:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOX1f-0001Kq-78 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 05:36:11 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOX1Y-0003IE-DS for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 05:36:11 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOWqw-000NBf-Kf for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:25:06 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [193.180.251.62] (helo=mailgw4.ericsson.se) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOWqs-000N9i-JT for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:25:05 +0000 Received: from mailgw4.ericsson.se (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 646F520503; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:24:58 +0100 (CET) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3e-aa6efbb000004aff-d9-45ed417af47d Received: from esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.121]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 42838200DC; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:24:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.200.7]) by esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:24:58 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:24:56 +0100 Message-ID: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E91B19AE4@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7DBAFEC6A76F3E42817DF1EBE64CB026045B65AB@FTRDMEL2.rd.francetelecom.fr> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt thread-index: AcdeZg5sE8LUFdARSAao4Q9VfGEU0AAlrdQgAArQDHAAAr2rMAABX0QQACeADKA= From: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" To: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" , "Igor Bryskin" , "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" , "Igor Bryskin" , , Cc: , "Don Fedyk" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2007 10:24:58.0187 (UTC) FILETIME=[B0C941B0:01C75FD9] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 162d87dc0b780d17da9b1934777fd451 Hi Julien, The point is that having a single session has its benefits in some cases (as pointed out in previous postings) but to leverage this the applicability is limited (again pointed out previously, e.g., single sided control) compared to a general RSVP-TE case with separate sessions. So we are not saying that the single session is *the* solution, it as an alternative option (maybe "valuable") to the separate session approach. Regards, Attila=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of MEURIC Julien=20 > RD-CORE-LAN > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:50 PM > To: Igor Bryskin; Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI); Igor Bryskin;=20 > Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Don Fedyk > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 > Hi Igor. >=20 > Please, find my answers in-line. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Julien >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]=20 >=20 > Julien, >=20 > Please, see in-line. >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On >=20 > Hi all. >=20 > To answer the 1st question, I would say that there is a=20 > requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional *service* (think=20 > about IP TV transport for instance). What is more, as Igor=20 > said, being able to handle both directions as a single=20 > service brings advantages (such as fate sharing), especially=20 > in terms of operating a network. Question is: does this=20 > necessarily map to "single LSP"? Not so sure... >=20 > Then, I do not see any strong requirement for having a single=20 > signalling exchange. >=20 > IB>> Well, if everything goes smoothly, the setup of a single > bi-directional LSP is twice as fast as the setup of two=20 > unidirectional LSPs. If there are some provisioning problems,=20 > then the difference may be much bigger. Think about the=20 > situation when there is a resource allocation failure for the=20 > opposite direction on the service node, say, next after the=20 > ingress. If you setup a single bi-directional LSP the failure=20 > is detected almost right away, the path is recomputed and LSP=20 > is re-routed. However, if you setup two reciprocal=20 > unidirectional LSPs, the failure won't be even detected=20 > before the Path message for the second LSP arrives on the=20 > failure detecting node. And now you will have to signal the=20 > release of both LSPs and start the whole setup again. So, the=20 > recovery time won't be all that great, don't you agree? >=20 > [JM] I agree with you. That is why, for recovery, a node=20 > should not rely on a third party (such as a manager or the=20 > other end-node). However, you are only saying that a single=20 > LSP may fit the requirement, but I still cannot say that the=20 > requirement leads only to this exact solution. :-) >=20 >=20 > Besides, I do not think a scenario with a management system=20 > communicating with both end-nodes should be excluded neither.=20 > However, in this case, it may be detrimental for the control=20 > plane to rely on an external party to correlate both directions. >=20 > IB>> My customers say that if one set's up a soft-PVC and one needs to > access both edges of the soft-PVC, one might just touch all=20 > other nodes, that is, setup a PVC instead. They believe that=20 > it is a significant advantage to be able to control service=20 > from one node. That's what makes the service provisioning=20 > *dynamic*. Frankly, as I see it the only situation for the=20 > management plane to access nodes other than ingress is when=20 > there is a problem with the CP. For example, one of the=20 > controllers went out of service and there is a need to tear=20 > down or reroute the service. >=20 > [JM] I do not think it is an issue of communication sessions.=20 > A PVC does not provide with the same kind of services as a=20 > soft-PVC, whether it rely on a bi-directional or 2=20 > uni-directional LSPs: differences are deeper than only=20 > head-node handling. Of course it is an advantage to control=20 > the service from a single point (node, manager...), but I do=20 > not see how provisioning from 2 nodes makes it less dynamic=20 > than provisioning from one node... Anyway I admit that it may=20 > ease automatic end-to-end provisioning in case of multi-layer=20 > or multi-domain services. >=20 >=20 > Can you give me other examples when such need arises? >=20 > [JM] I think if you want use the information in MIBs, you=20 > need to communicate with all nodes... From my point of view,=20 > the requirement is managing from a single *point* and=20 > defining this point as a node is only > *a* (valuable) solution. >=20 >=20 > Thanks, > Igor > =20 >=20 > Diego, to answer you, I think you are correct: re-using the=20 > RRO of the 1st one is an option to consider when routing by=20 > the controling plane, and using management-built ERO for both=20 > directions is valid in case of manual routing. As a result,=20 > it looks like tools are there to for provisioning,=20 > nevertheless it may bring an issue to guarantee fate sharing=20 > in case of recovery. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Julien >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI) >=20 > From my experience I can quote everything Igor said. GMPLS=20 > tunnel establishment is, AFAIK, always driven by the NMS/OSS=20 > that (quoting Neil Harrison here) is the King. >=20 > =20 >=20 > So I think that in the real world the Ingress node knows the=20 > upstream and downstream bandwidth of the GMPLS Tunnel is=20 > going to set-up. >=20 > Moreover if I'll use two uni-directional LSPs in order to=20 > set-up an LSP with asymmetrical bandwidth requirement I can=20 > force the path of the two LSPs to be the same? Do I have to=20 > use the RRO of the first one as ERO for the second one? Or I=20 > suppose to use a fully defined ERO for both the two LSP? In=20 > this case I do suppose that the ERO has been calculated by the NMS? >=20 > =20 >=20 > Regards >=20 >=20 > Diego >=20 > =20 >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin >=20 > Adrian and Dimitri, >=20 > When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason. =20 > Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to=20 > setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does not)=20 > contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all=20 > bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as I=20 > siad, for a particular reason (application, SLA, etc.).=20 > Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than=20 > computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration=20 > the bandwidth requirements for both directions? > So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node=20 > always knows about bandiwidth in both directions. >=20 > I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our=20 > customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a=20 > communication between management and control plane should=20 > always hapen at one (ingress) node. >=20 > Igor >=20 > PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic. >=20 > Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: >=20 > "Adrian Farrel"=20 > 04/03/2007 00:35 > Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" >=20 > To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri > PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL > cc: , "Don Fedyk"=20 > Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream > flowspec=20 > in > > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message >=20 > That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the=20 > ingress know >=20 > the=20 > bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on > the=20 > Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the=20 > FlowSpec=20 > on the Path. >=20 > -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource > reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would > boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever) >=20 > -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where=20 > flowspec=20 > =3D< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore = > the flowspec may be adapted=20 >=20 > If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from=20 > the egress, >=20 > then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to=20 > make the=20 > actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not > worth=20 > trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. >=20 > -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially=20 > the ingress >=20 > is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible=20 > without major > protocol modifications >=20 > -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp=20 > doesn't elevate > the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation > in > a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object > would > prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, > and > provide full flexibility >=20 >=20 > A=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Mar 06 05:44:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOX9L-0008QK-7q for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 05:44:07 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOX9F-0004tt-94 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 05:44:07 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOX0a-000Nnu-RE for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:35:04 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [193.180.251.60] (helo=mailgw3.ericsson.se) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOX0X-000NmD-0o for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:35:03 +0000 Received: from mailgw3.ericsson.se (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw3.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 4151220D7F; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:34:54 +0100 (CET) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3c-a81bbbb000004e66-1c-45ed43ce1ff7 Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.123]) by mailgw3.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 294E720CEF; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:34:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.200.7]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:34:53 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75FDB.13B4FBE9" Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:34:53 +0100 Message-ID: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E91B19B05@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <0679BA70A2F59E49B186858B47F4595C010080E8@viper.sycamorenet.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt thread-index: AcdfWXhdZgmxmErtRe6bByz18y7HMAAFjIQwAAV27PAAFRNYMA== From: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" To: "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2007 10:34:53.0472 (UTC) FILETIME=[139A8A00:01C75FDB] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e52c6009a9b39871b75233310d7f3490 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FDB.13B4FBE9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Vijay, =20 let me answer this.=20 =20 If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. =20 Regards, Attila =20 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, =20 The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). =20 So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? =20 Regards, =20 Vijay =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi, =20 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =20 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?=20 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =20 =20 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =20 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes?=20 =20 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. =20 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well?=20 =20 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align.=20 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path?=20 =20 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required.=20 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?=20 =20 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. =20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =20 Regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FDB.13B4FBE9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 Vijay,
 
let me=20 answer this.
 
If you=20 need different protection for each direction then you likely will need=20 differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions = for the=20 two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like = fate=20 sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID=20 only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of = the=20 bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471.
 
Regards,
Attila
 
From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian,=20 Vijay
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM
To: Don=20 Fedyk
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions = on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Don,
 
The=20 question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one = direction=20 required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse=20 direction probably required some basic P&R=20 (say Re-routing).
 
So=20 the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and = reverse=20 direction. Am I right?
 
Regards,
 
Vijay
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Fedyk=20 [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 = 6:41=20 PM
To: Pandian, Vijay; = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE:=20 Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi Vijay

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org = [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian,=20 Vijay
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM
To: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi,
 
I have some=20 basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this = ID as=20 well as the application behind such a = requirement.
 
1. Does=20 this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? 
The=20 postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service = with a=20 single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP.  The most = common=20 implementation of this is Optical TDM networks.  Since this was the starting point, the ID = postulates setting=20 up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP.  = (Like many=20 new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an=20 = implementation.)  
 
So=20 to your question besides bandwidth there is also = underlying=20 requirement to align with GMPLS single session=20 procedures and support a bi-directional = packet data=20 plane as Ethernet does today.  A single bidirectional (in this = case=20 asymmetric BW capable) LSP.  In other words a single RSVP-TE=20 session.  Several people have pointed out this is also = achievable with=20 two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end).  Rather = than=20 reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the = authors had a=20 single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology.=20  Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there = are=20 efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional=20 LSP.  On the other hand the issue is = there is=20 currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to = discuss the=20 pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a = thread=20 on this (RE: I-D=20 = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)
 
|=20  2. How=20 about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery=20 (P&R) related attributes? 
 
With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to=20 allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by = separate=20 RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session = associated=20 with the primary bidirectional LSP.=20   
3. If=20 P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense=20 to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each = end) and=20 eventually signal them independently as well? 
 
Hopefully I=20 addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP = could be=20 handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP.  The data plane = in our=20 case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a = CSPF at=20 one end and/or force the paths to=20 align. 
4. Is=20 there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same=20 path? 
 
That = is the way an=20 Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the = requirement=20 comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases = Ethernet=20 forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric = paths.  The=20 requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and = data plane=20 trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is = required.=20
5. What=20 is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is = it same=20 as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? 
 
Yes = it is=20 related.  A shared resource link group identifies shared = resources at=20 some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very = high=20 level of granularity.  Disjoint paths have none or very = few shared=20 resources.  For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes = from=20 the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails = the=20 other is likely to=20 = fail.    
 
Regards,
Don=20
 
Regards,
 
Vijay
------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FDB.13B4FBE9-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Mar 06 06:14:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOXd3-00048T-QQ for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 06:14:49 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOXcy-0004sz-5F for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 06:14:49 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOXUI-00005y-KW for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:05:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.8.67] (helo=fizeau.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOXUF-00005l-8Q for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:05:45 +0000 Received: from [212.23.3.141] (helo=heisenberg.zen.co.uk) by fizeau.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HOXUE-0003eT-DQ for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:05:42 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by heisenberg.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HOXUC-0000pM-OI for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:05:41 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.94] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:05:38 +0000 Message-ID: <0f3801c75fdf$5ba7fc70$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk" Cc: References: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E91B19B05@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:05:20 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2007 11:05:39.0444 (UTC) FILETIME=[5FE38340:01C75FDF] X-Originating-Heisenberg-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31b28e25e9d13a22020d8b7aedc9832c Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs additional message exchanges. The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem to be beyond this debate. So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay, let me answer this. If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? Regards, Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. Regards, Don Regards, Vijay From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Mar 06 06:37:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOXyY-0005O8-U4 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 06:37:02 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOXyS-0001JG-B2 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 06:37:02 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOXr6-0001e8-L2 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:29:20 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [193.180.251.60] (helo=mailgw3.ericsson.se) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOXr1-0001dj-Fo for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:29:18 +0000 Received: from mailgw3.ericsson.se (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw3.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id CDE5520D76; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:29:13 +0100 (CET) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3c-ab1c1bb000004e66-3c-45ed50892725 Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.123]) by mailgw3.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id AA4A72091A; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:29:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw110.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.200.78]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:29:13 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE2.AA8D5950" Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:29:39 +0100 Message-ID: <0428AC48A879ED46A94F39D5665DF6844D8C17@esealmw110.eemea.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E91B19B05@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdfWXhdZgmxmErtRe6bByz18y7HMAAFjIQwAAV27PAAFRNYMAAA99uQ From: "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2007 11:29:13.0485 (UTC) FILETIME=[AAB90BD0:01C75FE2] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1035cb032bb05b1c0407c34d5b6cad82 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE2.AA8D5950 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guys, let me try to summarize what we have said so far: 1 The basic idea behind the ID is based on some facts (I hope we = all agree that are facts :-)); 1.1 Ethernet services are (likely) bidirectional with asymmetric = bandwidth; 1.2 GMPLS now allows to set-up bi-directional LSP with symmetrical = bandwidth; 1.3 If, with the existing protocols, there is the need to set-up a = bi-directional service with asymmetric bandwidth requirement (e.g. IpTv) = and with upstream and downstream path that follow the same route we have = to signal two different LSPs using the RRO of the first one as strict = ERO for the second one. If we also want to bind the two LSPs in order = to identify them as part of the same service we can use the ASSOCIATON = obj (modified I suppose) 1.4 Likely (I would say very likely) the NMS that requests the = LSP(s) set-up knows in advance the bandwidth needed in the two = directions. So we are in a different situation w.r.t. the original RSVP = situation. We have all the information we need to set-up the LSP at the = Path processing Now if all of we are happy with point 1.3 then we have finished. If = someone think that is better to have the possibility to set-up and = identify a bidirectional service with a single LSP then the ID have = reason to exists at least for discussion :-). IMHO having the possibility to set-up the LSP at the path processing = speed up the service establishment and this is particularly useful in = case of LSP rerouting in case of failure. In fact if the service is = made of the two LSP what could happens is the first one can be set-up = and the second one fails during signaling this means that first one have = to be deleted and two LSP path recomputed and re-signaled. =20 Best Regards =20 Diego =20 =20 =20 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH) Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo 2007 11.35 To: Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =20 Hi Vijay, =20 let me answer this.=20 =20 If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will = need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate = sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a = single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different = routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property = of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. =20 Regards, Attila =20 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, =20 The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one = direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction = probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). =20 So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward = and reverse direction. Am I right? =20 Regards, =20 Vijay =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay =20 =09 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, =20 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope = of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =20 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?=20 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service = with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most = common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was = the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service = with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a = requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =20 =20 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying = requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a = bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single = bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words = a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also = achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). = Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the = authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the = technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and = there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On = the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the = asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple = sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =20 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & = Recovery (P&R) related attributes?=20 =20 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection = or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate = from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary = bidirectional LSP. =20 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them = separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal = them independently as well?=20 =20 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the = bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. = The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so = you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align.=20 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the = same path?=20 =20 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is = where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and = in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional = symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native = Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional = symmetry in the data plane is required.=20 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. = Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?=20 =20 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared = resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources = at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very = few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes = from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails = the other is likely to fail. =20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =20 Regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE2.AA8D5950 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Guys,

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 let me try to summarize what = we have said so far:

1         The basic idea behind the ID is based on some facts = (I hope we all agree that are facts J);

1.1      = Ethernet services are (likely) = bidirectional with asymmetric bandwidth;

1.2      = GMPLS now allows to set-up = bi-directional LSP with symmetrical bandwidth;

1.3      = If, with the existing protocols, = there is the need to set-up a bi-directional service with asymmetric bandwidth requirement (e.g. IpTv) and with upstream and downstream path that = follow the same route we have to signal two different LSPs using the RRO of the = first one as strict ERO for the second one. =A0If we also want to bind the two = LSPs in order to identify them as part of the same service we can use the = ASSOCIATON obj (modified I suppose)

1.4      = Likely (I would say very likely) = the NMS that requests the LSP(s) set-up knows in advance the bandwidth needed in = the two directions. =A0So we are in a different situation w.r.t. the = original RSVP situation.=A0 We have all the information we need to set-up the LSP at = the Path processing

Now if all of we are happy with point 1.3 then we have finished. =A0If someone = think that is better to have the possibility to set-up and identify a = bidirectional service with a single LSP then the ID have reason to exists at least for discussion J.

IMHO having the possibility to set-up the LSP at the path processing speed up = the service establishment and this is particularly useful in case of LSP = rerouting in case of failure.=A0 In fact if the service is made of the two LSP = what could happens is the first one can be set-up and the second one fails during signaling this means that first one have to be deleted and two LSP path recomputed and re-signaled.=A0

Best Regards

 

Diego = =A0

 

 

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Attila Takacs = (IJ/ETH)
Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo = 2007 11.35
To: Pandian, Vijay; Don = Fedyk
Cc: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

 

Hi Vijay,

 

let me answer this.

 

If you need different protection for each direction = then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses = separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a = single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different = routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in = RFC3471.

 

Regards,

Attila

 

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, = 2007 1:36 AM
To: Don Fedyk
Cc: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Don,

 

The question I had regarding P&R was trying to = figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing).

 

So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I = right?

 

Regards,

 

Vijay

 

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, = 2007 6:41 PM
To: Pandian, Vijay; = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi Vijay

 

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Monday, March 05, = 2007 2:07 PM
To: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi,

 

I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of = this ID as well as the application behind such a = requirement.

 

1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? 

The postulation was that GMPLS today supports = bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional = LSP.  The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM = networks.  Since this was the starting point, the ID = postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric = LSP.  (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.)  

 

So to your question besides = bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session = procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today.  = A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP.  In = other words a single RSVP-TE session.  Several people have pointed out = this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end).  Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will = acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of = the technology.  Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric = and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional = LSP.  On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the = asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus = single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)

 

| =  2. How about other attributes? = in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related = attributes? 

 

With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to = allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in = separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary = bidirectional LSP.   

3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense = to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? 

 

Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery = of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & = LSP.  The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so = you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to = align. 

4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same = path? 

 

That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in = my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane = OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths.  The requirement is to be able to support native = Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in = the data plane is required.

5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or = IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? 

 

Yes it is related.  A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have = shared resources at a very high level of granularity.  Disjoint paths = have none or very few shared resources.  For a bidirectional path = the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common = resources and if one fails the other is likely to = fail.    

 

Regards,

Don

 

Regards,

 

Vijay

------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE2.AA8D5950-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Mar 06 06:40:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOY2L-0005gw-9U for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 06:40:57 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOY2D-0001hE-Jn for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 06:40:57 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOXwh-00024u-6V for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:35:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [193.180.251.62] (helo=mailgw4.ericsson.se) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOXwd-00023L-Mk for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:35:05 +0000 Received: from mailgw4.ericsson.se (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 08B3A2196F; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:35:02 +0100 (CET) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3e-abf1ebb000004aff-1b-45ed51e51168 Received: from esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.121]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id DA84D2165C; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:35:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.200.7]) by esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:35:01 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:35:00 +0100 Message-ID: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E91B19C1A@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <0f3801c75fdf$5ba7fc70$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] thread-index: Acdf32NH1b2srmy3TdmNji7nUQvlfgAAQ2Cw From: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" To: "Adrian Farrel" , "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2007 11:35:01.0503 (UTC) FILETIME=[7A2860F0:01C75FE3] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ce732c7d36989a1bd55104ba259c40a1 Hi Adrian, Please see inline. Regards, Attila=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 12:05 PM > To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on=20 > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] >=20 > Hi, >=20 > There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I=20 > am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. >=20 > - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one > direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? >=20 > - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one > direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a > switch-over of the other direction, too? >=20 > - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control > plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control > plane state in the other direction? >=20 > The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional=20 > signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing=20 > automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not=20 > preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs=20 > additional message exchanges. Control plane fate sharing was mentioned as one benefit when having a single session. In this case additional message exchanges are not needed and there are no additional delays which otherwise would be an issue with restoration. >=20 > The use of an identical path for both directions can provide=20 > some elements of data plane fate sharing, but it is important=20 > to note that it does not guarantee it. For example, a=20 > unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is not impacted=20 > by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions=20 > can be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as=20 > a failure might only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. >=20 Agreed, the data plane aspects are technology specific. > End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different=20 > level and seem to be beyond this debate. >=20 >=20 > So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the=20 > discussion of=20 > asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: > - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services > - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the > cost of new signaling objects and procedures? Another point is on application scenarios. As Dimitri pointed out in his early mails, if a general extension to support asymmetric bandwidth is going to be specified its complexity might outweigh its benefits. However, given a focused scenario with single sided control and full bandwidth knowledge at the ingress, the simple extensions given in the ID might be appropriate. The question on this would be whether the proposed extension with this scope is worth the effort. >=20 > Adrian >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" > To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20 > > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi Vijay, >=20 > let me answer this. >=20 > If you need different protection for each direction then you=20 > likely will > need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate > sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a > single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different > routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical=20 > bandwidth property > of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. >=20 > Regards, > Attila >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM > To: Don Fedyk > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 >=20 > Don, >=20 > The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one > direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction > probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). >=20 > So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the > forward and reverse direction. Am I right? >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Vijay >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM > To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Questions on > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi Vijay >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Questions on > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I have some basic questions, primarily trying to > understand the scope of this ID as well as the application=20 > behind such a > requirement. >=20 > 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric > Bandwidth requirement? >=20 > The postulation was that GMPLS today supports > bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a > bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical > TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates > setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like > many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an > implementation.) >=20 > So to your question besides bandwidth there is also > underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session=20 > procedures and > support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A > single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable)=20 > LSP. In other > words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed=20 > out this is > also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each > end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will=20 > acknowledge > the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the > technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and > there are efficiencies in a single session of a=20 > bi-directional LSP. On > the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the > asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple > sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D > ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) >=20 > | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP > Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? >=20 > With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow > bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate > RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session=20 > associated > with the primary bidirectional LSP. >=20 > 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make > sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) > and eventually signal them independently as well? >=20 >=20 > Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of > the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & > LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric > path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to > align. >=20 > 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse > flows to be on the same path? >=20 >=20 > That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my > case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data > plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that=20 > both require > bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to > support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and > bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. >=20 > 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this > in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? >=20 >=20 > Yes it is related. A shared resource link group > identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared=20 > paths have > shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths > have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the > shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common > resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. >=20 > Regards, > Don >=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Vijay >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Mar 06 06:51:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOYCK-0007IP-4U for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 06:51:16 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOYCI-0003XK-OI for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 06:51:15 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOY61-0002ku-E4 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:44:45 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [193.180.251.62] (helo=mailgw4.ericsson.se) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOY5w-0002kU-S1 for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:44:43 +0000 Received: from mailgw4.ericsson.se (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id DE93421358; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:44:38 +0100 (CET) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3e-a8eecbb000004aff-1c-45ed54268f73 Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.123]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id B326D21354; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:44:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw110.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.200.78]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:44:38 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE4.D1CD0D9C" Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:45:04 +0100 Message-ID: <0428AC48A879ED46A94F39D5665DF6844D8C22@esealmw110.eemea.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <0f3801c75fdf$5ba7fc70$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: Acdf4JWp/jby+ZTyRFu1PwDQ0CiX5QAAjl+w From: "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" To: "Adrian Farrel" , "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2007 11:44:38.0299 (UTC) FILETIME=[D1F476B0:01C75FE4] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a985ed7c9101086bea2cd7287e9f83a This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE4.D1CD0D9C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Adrian, Some comments in line Best Regards Diego -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo 2007 12.05 To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on = draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not = sure=20 what problem we are trying to solve. [dc] As usual you and Vijay, make a point :-) I also think we need to = clarify what is fate sharing. - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? [dc] I think here you are talking about the so called ALS (Automatic = Laser Shutdown) there should b some ITU-T recc about this. I sorry I = forgot the number. - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) = obviously=20 makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated=20 signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs=20 additional message exchanges. The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some = elements=20 of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not = guarantee it.=20 [dc] Yes my understanding of the fate sharing is that upstream and = downstream LSP must follow the same path.=20 For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is=20 not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions = can=20 be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might = only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. [dc] Here is where ALS should come in the field. If the fibre is broken = in one direction the ALS should shutdown the laser associated to the = other direction. =20 =20 -------X-----> A B =20 <------------S That is X is a failure (LOL), as soon B detects the loss of light due to = the ALS is shutdown the laser (S in the picture) towards A End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and = seem=20 to be beyond this debate. So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of=20 asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? [dc] I've tried to make a summary of the point discussed so far in an = another mail Adrian ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20 Cc: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay, let me answer this. If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? Regards, Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. Regards, Don Regards, Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE4.D1CD0D9C Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on = draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt]

Hi Adrian,

          Some = comments in line

Best Regards


Diego

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<= /A>] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo 2007 12.05
To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on = draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt]

Hi,

There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" = and I am not sure

what problem we are trying to solve.

[dc] As usual you and Vijay, make a = point J I = also think we need to clarify what is fate sharing.

- Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in = one

  direction must cause data plane interruption in both = directions?

[dc] I think here you are = talking about the so called ALS (Automatic Laser = Shutdown) there should b some ITU-T recc about = this.  I sorry I forgot the = number.

- Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of = one

  direction to its backup path must be accompanied by = a

  switch-over of the other direction, too?

- Is this a control plane feature where the removal of = control

  plane state in one direction must cause the removal of = control

  plane state in the other direction?

The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) = obviously

makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of = associated

signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just = needs

additional message exchanges.

The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some = elements

of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it = does not

guarantee it.

[dc] Yes my = understanding of the fate sharing is = that upstream and downstream LSP must follow the same = path.

For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is =

not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the = directions can

be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure = might

only impact one direction in bidirectional = signaling.

[dc] Here is where ALS should = come in the field.  If the fibre is broken in = one direction the ALS should shutdown = the laser associated to the other direction. 

 

 -------X----->

A           &n= bsp;  B 

 <------------S

That is X is a failure (LOL), as soon B detects the = loss of light due to the ALS is shutdown the laser (S in the = picture) towards A

End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level = and seem

to be beyond this debate.


So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion = of

asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced = to:

- We need asymmetrical bidirectional services

- Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh = the

   cost of new signaling objects and = procedures?

[dc] I've tried to = make a summary of the point discussed so far in an another = mail

Adrian

----- Original Message -----

From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" = <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>

To: "Pandian, Vijay" = <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>; "Don Fedyk" =

<dwfedyk@nortel.com>

Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>

Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM

Subject: RE: Questions on = draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi Vijay,

let me answer this.

If you need different protection for each direction then you likely = will

need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses = separate

sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having = a

single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take = different

routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth = property

of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in = RFC3471.

Regards,

Attila

________________________________

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<= /A>] On

Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay

Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM

To: Don Fedyk

Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org

Subject: RE: Questions on = draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt



Don,

The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if = one

direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse = direction

probably required some basic P&R (say = Re-routing).

So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for = the

forward and reverse direction. Am I right?

Regards,

Vijay



-----Original Message-----

From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]<= /SPAN>

Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM

To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org

Subject: RE: Questions on

draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi Vijay


________________________________

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org

[mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<= /A>] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay

Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM

To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org

Subject: Questions on

draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi,

I have some basic questions, primarily trying to

understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind = such a

requirement.

1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric

Bandwidth requirement?

The postulation was that GMPLS today supports

bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating = a

bidirectional LSP.  The most common implementation of this is = Optical

TDM networks.  Since this was the starting point, the ID = postulates

setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric = LSP.  (Like

many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a = an

implementation.)

So to your question besides bandwidth there is = also

underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session = procedures and

support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does = today.  A

single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) = LSP.  In other

words a single RSVP-TE session.  Several people have pointed = out this is

also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at = each

end).  Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will = acknowledge

the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of = the

technology.  Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional = symmetric and

there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional = LSP.  On

the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify = the

asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of = multiple

sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: = I-D

ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)

|  2. How about other attributes? in particular = LSP

Protection & Recovery (P&R) related = attributes?

With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow

bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by = separate

RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session = associated

with the primary bidirectional LSP.

3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it = make

sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each = end)

and eventually signal them independently as well?


Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery = of

the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session = &

LSP.  The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional = symmetric

path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths = to

align.

4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse

flows to be on the same path?


That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in = my

case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet = data

plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both = require

bi-directional symmetric paths.  The requirement is to be able = to

support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions = and

bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is = required.

5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find = this

in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint = paths?


Yes it is related.  A shared resource link = group

identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths = have

shared resources at a very high level of granularity.  = Disjoint paths

have none or very few shared resources.  For a bidirectional = path the

shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have = common

resources and if one fails the other is likely to = fail.

Regards,

Don


Regards,

Vijay




------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE4.D1CD0D9C-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Mar 06 09:48:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOay6-0008Tr-E6 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:48:46 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOay2-0000mE-0Z for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:48:46 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOakB-000OHd-0x for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:34:23 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [12.146.0.145] (helo=falcon.sycamorenet.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOajx-000OGb-AU for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:34:17 +0000 Received: from viper.sycamorenet.com ([10.5.1.105]) by falcon.sycamorenet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:33:52 -0500 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFC.B542D7E0" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:35:38 -0500 Message-ID: <0679BA70A2F59E49B186858B47F4595C010080EF@viper.sycamorenet.com> In-Reply-To: <0428AC48A879ED46A94F39D5665DF6844D8C17@esealmw110.eemea.ericsson.se> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdfWXhdZgmxmErtRe6bByz18y7HMAAFjIQwAAV27PAAFRNYMAAA99uQAAcoNAA= From: "Pandian, Vijay" To: "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" , "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Don Fedyk" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2007 14:33:52.0187 (UTC) FILETIME=[7624D0B0:01C75FFC] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0725f43bdc9fea0192882289ab81b627 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFC.B542D7E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Diego, =20 Even for point 1.3, it is not clear why the two directions of this LSP = needs to be on the same (physical?) path. I may not understand the IpTv = application, but isn't it true that the direction where you need a small = bandwidth probably is used to send control messages such as "channel = change" etc... In that case, doesn't it make sense to use a completely = different path with a different QoS for a efficient network resource = utilization? =20 Assuming that we end up treating each direction as independent sessions, = can we use the GMPLS-CALL ID to correlate the two connections? I assume = the intermediate nodes don't care about such an "ASSOCIATEION". =20 Regards, =20 Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI) [mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 6:30 AM To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Guys, let me try to summarize what we have said so far: 1 The basic idea behind the ID is based on some facts (I hope we = all agree that are facts :-)); 1.1 Ethernet services are (likely) bidirectional with asymmetric = bandwidth; 1.2 GMPLS now allows to set-up bi-directional LSP with symmetrical = bandwidth; 1.3 If, with the existing protocols, there is the need to set-up a = bi-directional service with asymmetric bandwidth requirement (e.g. IpTv) = and with upstream and downstream path that follow the same route we have = to signal two different LSPs using the RRO of the first one as strict = ERO for the second one. If we also want to bind the two LSPs in order = to identify them as part of the same service we can use the ASSOCIATON = obj (modified I suppose) 1.4 Likely (I would say very likely) the NMS that requests the = LSP(s) set-up knows in advance the bandwidth needed in the two = directions. So we are in a different situation w.r.t. the original RSVP = situation. We have all the information we need to set-up the LSP at the = Path processing Now if all of we are happy with point 1.3 then we have finished. If = someone think that is better to have the possibility to set-up and = identify a bidirectional service with a single LSP then the ID have = reason to exists at least for discussion :-). IMHO having the possibility to set-up the LSP at the path processing = speed up the service establishment and this is particularly useful in = case of LSP rerouting in case of failure. In fact if the service is = made of the two LSP what could happens is the first one can be set-up = and the second one fails during signaling this means that first one have = to be deleted and two LSP path recomputed and re-signaled. =20 Best Regards =20 Diego =20 =20 =20 _____ =20 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH) Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo 2007 11.35 To: Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =20 Hi Vijay, =20 let me answer this.=20 =20 If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will = need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate = sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a = single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different = routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property = of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. =20 Regards, Attila =20 _____ =20 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, =20 The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one = direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction = probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). =20 So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward = and reverse direction. Am I right? =20 Regards, =20 Vijay =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay =20 _____ =20 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, =20 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of = this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =20 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?=20 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service = with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most = common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was = the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service = with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a = requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =20 =20 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying = requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a = bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single = bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words = a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also = achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). = Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the = authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the = technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and = there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On = the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the = asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple = sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =20 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & = Recovery (P&R) related attributes?=20 =20 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection = or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate = from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary = bidirectional LSP. =20 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them = separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal = them independently as well?=20 =20 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the = bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. = The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so = you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align.=20 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same = path?=20 =20 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is = where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and = in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional = symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native = Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional = symmetry in the data plane is required.=20 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is = it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?=20 =20 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared = resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources = at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very = few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes = from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails = the other is likely to fail. =20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =20 Regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFC.B542D7E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 Diego,
 
Even=20 for point 1.3, it is not clear why the two directions of this LSP needs = to be on=20 the same (physical?) path. I may not understand the IpTv application, = but isn't=20 it true that the direction where you need a small bandwidth probably is = used to=20 send control messages such as "channel change" etc... In that = case, doesn't=20 it make sense to use a completely different path with a different = QoS for a=20 efficient network resource utilization?
 
Assuming that we end up treating each direction as = independent=20 sessions, can we use the  GMPLS-CALL ID to correlate the two=20 connections? I assume the intermediate nodes don't care about such an=20 "ASSOCIATEION".
 
Regards,
 
Vijay
-----Original Message-----
From: Diego Caviglia = (GA/ERI)=20 [mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March = 06, 2007=20 6:30 AM
To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don=20 Fedyk
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: = Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Guys,

        =20 let me try to summarize what we have said so = far:

1        =20 The basic idea behind the ID is based on some = facts (I=20 hope we all agree that are facts J);

1.1     =20 Ethernet services are (likely) bidirectional = with=20 asymmetric bandwidth;

1.2     =20 GMPLS now allows to set-up bi-directional LSP = with=20 symmetrical bandwidth;

1.3     =20 If, with the existing protocols, there is the = need to=20 set-up a bi-directional service with asymmetric bandwidth requirement = (e.g.=20 IpTv) and with upstream and downstream path that follow the same route = we have=20 to signal two different LSPs using the RRO of the first one as strict = ERO for=20 the second one.  If we also want to bind the two LSPs in order to = identify them as part of the same service we can use the ASSOCIATON = obj=20 (modified I suppose)

1.4     =20 Likely (I would say very likely) the NMS that = requests the=20 LSP(s) set-up knows in advance the bandwidth needed in the two = directions.=20  So we are in a different situation w.r.t. the original RSVP=20 situation.  We have all the information we need to set-up the LSP = at the=20 Path processing

Now = if all of we=20 are happy with point 1.3 then we have finished.  If someone think = that is=20 better to have the possibility to set-up and identify a bidirectional = service=20 with a single LSP then the ID have reason to exists at least for = discussion=20 J.

IMHO having the=20 possibility to set-up the LSP at the path processing speed up the = service=20 establishment and this is particularly useful in case of LSP rerouting = in case=20 of failure.  In fact if the service is made of the two LSP what = could=20 happens is the first one can be set-up and the second one fails during = signaling this means that first one have to be deleted and two LSP = path=20 recomputed and re-signaled. 

Best=20 Regards

 

Diego=20  

 

 

From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Attila Takacs=20 (IJ/ETH)
Sent: = marted=EC 6=20 marzo 2007 11.35
To: Pandian,=20 Vijay; Don Fedyk
Cc:=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject:=20 RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

 

Hi=20 Vijay,

 

let me answer this.=20

 

If you need different = protection for each=20 direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this = case one=20 better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the = benefits of=20 having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take = different=20 routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical = bandwidth=20 property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in=20 RFC3471.

 

Regards,

Attila

 

From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, = Vijay
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 = 1:36=20 AM
To: Don = Fedyk
Cc: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Don,

 

The question I had regarding = P&R=20 was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R = (say=20 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some = basic=20 P&R (say Re-routing).

 

So the requirement is to use = the same=20 "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I=20 right?

 

Regards,

 

Vijay

 

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Don=20 Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, = 2007 6:41=20 PM
To: Pandian, = Vijay;=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi = Vijay

 

From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Pandian,=20 Vijay
Sent: = Monday,=20 March 05, 2007 2:07 PM
To: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi,

 

I have some basic questions, primarily = trying to=20 understand the scope of this ID as well as the application = behind such a=20 requirement.

 

1. Does this ID address just an = asymmetric=20 Bandwidth requirement? 

The postulation was that = GMPLS today=20 supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session = creating a=20 bidirectional LSP.  The most common implementation of this is = Optical=20 TDM networks. =20 Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an = asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP.  (Like = many new=20 drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an=20 = implementation.)  

 

So to your question besides = bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align = with=20 GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional = packet data=20 plane as Ethernet does today.  A single bidirectional (in = this case=20 asymmetric BW capable) LSP.  In other words a single RSVP-TE=20 session.  Several people have pointed out this is also = achievable=20 with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end).  = Rather=20 than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the=20 authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of = the=20 technology.  Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional = symmetric and=20 there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional = LSP. =20 On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to = specify the=20 asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of = multiple=20 sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D=20 = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)

 

|=20  2. How about other = attributes? in=20 particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related=20 attributes? 

 

With respect to GMPLS, the = plan was=20 to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs = controlled by=20 separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE = session=20 associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. =   

3. If P&R are indeed=20 different, doesn't it make sense to route them = separately=20 (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and = eventually signal them=20 independently as well? 

 

Hopefully I addressed part = of this=20 already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by = another=20 RSVP-TE session & LSP.  The data plane in our case must = have a=20 bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end = and/or=20 force the paths to align. 

4. Is there a need for the forward and = reverse=20 flows to be on the same path? 

 

That is the way an Ethernet = data=20 plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes = from.=20 There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet = forwarding=20 rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths.  The=20 requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and = data=20 plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data = plane is=20 required.

5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't = find this=20 in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint = paths? 

 

Yes it is related.  A = shared=20 resource link group identifies shared resources at some = granularity. Fate=20 shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of=20 granularity.  Disjoint paths have none or very few = shared=20 resources.  For a bidirectional path the shared fate = comes from=20 the fact that both direction have common resources and if one = fails the=20 other is likely to fail.    

 

Regards,

Don=20

 

Regards,

 

Vijay

<= /BLOCKQUOTE>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFC.B542D7E0-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Mar 06 09:50:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOazN-0000RJ-03 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:50:05 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOazH-0000vl-Cd for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:50:04 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOaqQ-000PZM-Qi for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:40:50 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [193.180.251.60] (helo=mailgw3.ericsson.se) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOaqF-000PWy-O0 for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:40:48 +0000 Received: from mailgw3.ericsson.se (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw3.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id C1C17205BF; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:40:35 +0100 (CET) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3c-a81bbbb000004e66-64-45ed7d63b326 Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.123]) by mailgw3.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 9B39D204F4; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:40:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw110.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.200.78]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:40:35 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFD.6668A822" Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:41:00 +0100 Message-ID: <0428AC48A879ED46A94F39D5665DF6844D8CCF@esealmw110.eemea.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <0679BA70A2F59E49B186858B47F4595C010080EF@viper.sycamorenet.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdfWXhdZgmxmErtRe6bByz18y7HMAAFjIQwAAV27PAAFRNYMAAA99uQAAcoNAAAAKEv8A== From: "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" To: "Pandian, Vijay" , "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Don Fedyk" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2007 14:40:35.0196 (UTC) FILETIME=[665B1BC0:01C75FFD] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cbc105313949e491492f0dde5a8e62b3 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFD.6668A822 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Vijay, Please see in line. =20 Best regards =20 Diego =20 ________________________________ From: Pandian, Vijay [mailto:Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com]=20 Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo 2007 15.36 To: Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI); Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =20 Hi Diego, =20 Even for point 1.3, it is not clear why the two directions of this LSP = needs to be on the same (physical?) path. [dc] I not saying that they must be on or need to be on the same path in = order to work. I'm saying if there is a requirement to have upstream = and downstream on the same path then.... =20 I may not understand the IpTv application, but isn't it true that the = direction where you need a small bandwidth probably is used to send = control messages such as "channel change" etc... In that case, doesn't = it make sense to use a completely different path with a different QoS = for a efficient network resource utilization? =20 Assuming that we end up treating each direction as independent sessions, = can we use the GMPLS-CALL ID to correlate the two connections? I assume = the intermediate nodes don't care about such an "ASSOCIATEION". [dc] Yes=20 =20 Regards, =20 Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI) [mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 6:30 AM To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Guys, let me try to summarize what we have said so far: 1. 1 The basic idea behind the ID is based on some facts = (I hope we all agree that are facts :-)); 2. 1.1 Ethernet services are (likely) bidirectional with = asymmetric bandwidth; 3. 1.2 GMPLS now allows to set-up bi-directional LSP with = symmetrical bandwidth; 4. 1.3 If, with the existing protocols, there is the need to = set-up a bi-directional service with asymmetric bandwidth requirement = (e.g. IpTv) and with upstream and downstream path that follow the same = route we have to signal two different LSPs using the RRO of the first = one as strict ERO for the second one. If we also want to bind the two = LSPs in order to identify them as part of the same service we can use = the ASSOCIATON obj (modified I suppose) 5. 1.4 Likely (I would say very likely) the NMS that requests = the LSP(s) set-up knows in advance the bandwidth needed in the two = directions. So we are in a different situation w.r.t. the original RSVP = situation. We have all the information we need to set-up the LSP at the = Path processing 6. Now if all of we are happy with point 1.3 then we = have finished. If someone think that is better to have the possibility = to set-up and identify a bidirectional service with a single LSP then = the ID have reason to exists at least for discussion :-). 7. IMHO having the possibility to set-up the LSP at = the path processing speed up the service establishment and this is = particularly useful in case of LSP rerouting in case of failure. In = fact if the service is made of the two LSP what could happens is the = first one can be set-up and the second one fails during signaling this = means that first one have to be deleted and two LSP path recomputed and = re-signaled. =20 8. Best Regards 9. =20 10. Diego =20 11. =20 =20 =09 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH) Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo 2007 11.35 To: Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =20 Hi Vijay, =20 let me answer this.=20 =20 If you need different protection for each direction then you likely = will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate = sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a = single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different = routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property = of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. =20 Regards, Attila =20 =09 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, =20 The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one = direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction = probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). =20 So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward = and reverse direction. Am I right? =20 Regards, =20 Vijay =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay =20 =09 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, =20 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the = scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =20 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?=20 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service = with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most = common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was = the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service = with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a = requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =20 =20 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying = requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a = bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single = bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words = a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also = achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). = Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the = authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the = technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and = there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On = the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the = asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple = sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =20 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & = Recovery (P&R) related attributes?=20 =20 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional = Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in = separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary = bidirectional LSP. =20 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them = separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal = them independently as well?=20 =20 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the = bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. = The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so = you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align.=20 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the = same path?=20 =20 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is = where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and = in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional = symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native = Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional = symmetry in the data plane is required.=20 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or = IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?=20 =20 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared = resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources = at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very = few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes = from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails = the other is likely to fail. =20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =20 Regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFD.6668A822 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Vijay,

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Please see = in line.

 

Best regards

 

Diego

 

From: = Pandian, Vijay [mailto:Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com]
Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo = 2007 15.36
To: Diego Caviglia = (GA/ERI); Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Don Fedyk
Cc: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

 

Hi Diego,

 

Even for point 1.3, it is not clear why the two = directions of this LSP needs to be on the same (physical?) path.

[dc] I not saying that they must be on or need to be = on the same path in order to work. =A0I’m saying if there is a = requirement to have upstream and downstream on the same path = then….

 

=A0I may not understand the IpTv application, but = isn't it true that the direction where you need a small bandwidth probably is = used to send control messages such as "channel change" etc... In that case, doesn't it make sense to use a completely different path = with a different QoS for a efficient network resource = utilization?

 

Assuming that we end up treating each direction = as independent sessions, can we use the  GMPLS-CALL ID to = correlate the two connections? I assume the intermediate nodes don't care about such = an "ASSOCIATEION".

[dc] Yes

 

Regards,

 

Vijay

-----Original = Message-----
From: Diego Caviglia = (GA/ERI) [mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, = 2007 6:30 AM
To: Attila Takacs = (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk
Cc: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Guys,

         let = me try to summarize what we have said so far:

1.       1         The basic = idea behind the ID is based on some facts (I hope we all agree that are facts = J);

2.      = 1.1      Ethernet services are (likely) bidirectional with = asymmetric bandwidth;

3.      = 1.2      GMPLS now allows to set-up bi-directional LSP with symmetrical bandwidth;

4.      = 1.3      If, with the existing protocols, there is the need = to set-up a bi-directional service with asymmetric bandwidth requirement (e.g. = IpTv) and with upstream and downstream path that follow the same route we have to = signal two different LSPs using the RRO of the first one as strict ERO for the = second one.  If we also want to bind the two LSPs in order to identify = them as part of the same service we can use the ASSOCIATON obj (modified I = suppose)

5.      = 1.4      Likely (I would say very likely) the NMS that = requests the LSP(s) set-up knows in advance the bandwidth needed in the two = directions.  So we are in a different situation w.r.t. the original RSVP situation.  We have all the information we need to set-up the LSP = at the Path processing

6.           = ;       Now if all of we are happy with point 1.3 then we = have finished.  If someone think that is better to have the possibility = to set-up and identify a bidirectional service with a single LSP then the = ID have reason to exists at least for discussion J.

7.           = ;       IMHO having the possibility to set-up the LSP at = the path processing speed up the service establishment and this is particularly = useful in case of LSP rerouting in case of failure.  In fact if the = service is made of the two LSP what could happens is the first one can be set-up = and the second one fails during signaling this means that first one have to be = deleted and two LSP path recomputed and re-signaled.  =

8.           = ;       Best Regards

9.           = ;         

=

10.           = ;   Diego  

11.           = ;     

=

 

From: = owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)
Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo = 2007 11.35
To: Pandian, Vijay; Don = Fedyk
Cc: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

 

Hi Vijay,

 

let me answer this.

 

If you need different protection for each direction = then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses = separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a = single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different = routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in = RFC3471.

 

Regards,

Attila

 

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, = 2007 1:36 AM
To: Don Fedyk
Cc: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Don,

 

The question I had regarding P&R was trying to = figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing).

 

So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I = right?

 

Regards,

 

Vijay

 

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, = 2007 6:41 PM
To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi Vijay

 

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Monday, March 05, = 2007 2:07 PM
To: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi,

 

I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of = this ID as well as the application behind such a = requirement.

 

1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? 

The postulation was that GMPLS today supports = bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional = LSP.  The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM = networks.  Since this was the starting point, the ID = postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric = LSP.  (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.)  

 

So to your question besides = bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session = procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today.  = A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP.  In = other words a single RSVP-TE session.  Several people have pointed out = this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end).  Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will = acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of = the technology.  Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric = and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional = LSP.  On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the = asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus = single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)

 

| =  2. How about other attributes? = in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related = attributes? 

 

With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by = separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session = associated with the primary bidirectional LSP.   

3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense = to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? 

 

Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery = of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & = LSP.  The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so = you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to = align. 

4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same = path? 

 

That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in = my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane = OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths.  The requirement is to be able to support native = Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in = the data plane is required.

5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or = IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? 

 

Yes it is related.  A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have = shared resources at a very high level of granularity.  Disjoint paths = have none or very few shared resources.  For a bidirectional path = the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common = resources and if one fails the other is likely to = fail.    

 

Regards,

Don

 

Regards,

 

Vijay

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"about breast" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Mary Kate Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 16:47:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7600F.2FBDEAE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: f2728948111f2edaaf8980b5b9de55af ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7600F.2FBDEAE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0005_01C7600F.2FBDEAE0" ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C7600F.2FBDEAE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe should try food or garbage much anything? Claims she was never bulimic and that vanity. Reveals new with admits puking guts lose from. Pointless old know pretty radical idea maybe should try. You think = battle please comment below. Habits but, refused remove truth comments. That vanity fair magazine, = took, words out, of! Attributed extraslim figure, to exercise. Kate tshirts time shirts? Dress sizesim working trainer healthily want my backits. Comments = reveals, new with, admits puking guts lose from. Storylohan herself has, repeatedly denied past interviews. Under rumors = pm now claims she was never. Comment below hires coach gain hired justin = gelband. Below hires coach gain hired justin gelband. Storylohan herself, has repeatedly denied past, interviews? Dabbling = drugs battling pushed emotional physical collapse apparent uturn. Some boobs allegedly already. Realizes how important breasts were, = career obviously cocaine. To, exercise says, as recently may making = vomit order. Finally realizes how important breasts were career, obviously. Made at, = alarming ratean, thats? Which made at alarming ratean. Us achieved loss, links search archives? Breast implants smoking pot remember. Made at alarming ratean thats nice = way saying lied? People its okay say, it, shes. Somebody pointless, old = know pretty radical idea, maybe. Eating disorder attributed extraslim = figure to exercise says. Claims she, was never bulimic and that vanity = fair. Some boobs allegedly, already. Censor all references, lindsays, drug habits, but! Gain hired justin gelband help put, some, boobs allegedly. Anything, ends, stomach me even poison anorexic lost. Took words out of context for! Disorder attributed extraslim figure to = exercise, says as recently. Gelband help, put some boobs allegedly. New with admits puking. Her, bulimia once againfiled under? Obviously cocaine melted brain = hiring. Said in statement every word told tape. July since cats outta bag what do? Rumors pm now claims she was never = bulimic. ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C7600F.2FBDEAE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""=20
Maybe should try food or garbage much = anything?
Claims she was never bulimic and that = vanity.
Reveals new with admits puking guts = lose from.
Pointless old know pretty radical idea = maybe should=20 try. You think battle please comment below.
Habits but, refused remove truth = comments. That=20 vanity fair magazine, took, words out, of! Attributed extraslim figure, = to exercise.
Kate tshirts time shirts?
Dress sizesim working trainer healthily = want my=20 backits. Comments reveals, new with, admits puking guts lose = from.
Storylohan herself has, repeatedly = denied past=20 interviews. Under rumors pm now claims she was never. Comment below = hires coach=20 gain hired justin gelband. Below hires coach gain hired justin = gelband.
Storylohan herself, has repeatedly = denied past,=20 interviews? Dabbling drugs battling pushed emotional physical collapse = apparent uturn.
Some boobs allegedly already. Realizes = how=20 important breasts were, career obviously cocaine. To, exercise says, as = recently=20 may making vomit order.
Finally realizes how important breasts = were career,=20 obviously. Made at, alarming ratean, thats? Which made at alarming = ratean.
Us achieved loss, links search = archives?
Breast implants smoking pot remember. = Made at=20 alarming ratean thats nice way saying lied? People its okay say, it, = shes.=20 Somebody pointless, old know pretty radical idea, maybe. Eating disorder = attributed extraslim figure to exercise says. Claims she, was never = bulimic and=20 that vanity fair.
Some boobs allegedly, = already.
Censor all references, lindsays, drug = habits, but!
Gain hired justin gelband help put, = some, boobs allegedly.
Anything, ends, stomach me even poison = anorexic lost.
Took words out of context for! Disorder = attributed=20 extraslim figure to exercise, says as recently.
Gelband help, put some boobs = allegedly.
New with admits puking.
Her, bulimia once againfiled under? = Obviously=20 cocaine melted brain hiring.
Said in statement every word told = tape.
July since cats outta bag what do? = Rumors pm now=20 claims she was never bulimic.
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ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOc6i-0002g2-39 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:01:54 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HObxG-0009mZ-Ej for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:51:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [209.191.85.53] (helo=web36802.mail.mud.yahoo.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HObxC-0009mC-Bi for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:51:56 +0000 Received: (qmail 12992 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Mar 2007 15:51:53 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=53Xw/HaGi3X0IvhTmSpycQvoD41ozge98JXBJ2TTta0zU6EPBVKNbzNe4E/oDlvKdjaGuHXRzLAMBnSAa1yOr80pCXILSuxjm8UF5LnCrJe5Bar92q0gsieTmYr8U0YdzcUngoze0ni5I+eCCHIOU2bzJyUS2xWdjyYf3RiMcWI=; X-YMail-OSG: TAdgY3EVM1k8meictn7agp5qfrUrGFxYEVqmIE9S3YX1a2n8HaVxw8op5MOt2sLbwhzPnPurlz.r.dZr8Ga2GD8RAP0GdthdD59scmIABGtE56689dv9JvgRswZ1_elteyBrFhxKKiafay_cPFooRA-- Received: from [67.102.145.11] by web36802.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 07:51:53 PST Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:51:53 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] To: Adrian Farrel , "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Pandian, Vijay" , Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org In-Reply-To: <0f3801c75fdf$5ba7fc70$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-509371772-1173196313=:8128" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <555335.8128.qm@web36802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6a45e05c1e4343200aa6b327df2c43fc --0-509371772-1173196313=:8128 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adrian, I would define "fate sharing" very simply: it is the situation when both directions go through the same links at any time: after setup, protection switchover, recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane the bidirectional service where opposite directions fate-share we have some nice by-products: a) CP states for both directions could be always combined together with the summary state reduced in size; b) the management of both directions can be accomplished using a single exchange of signaling messages, This holds for initial setup, protection switchover, recovery, re-route c) number of RSVP refreshes also is half as much My understanding is that we do like the notion of a symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet switched network layer. This is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to migrate from MPLS to GMPLS, and you. Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate of such migration. So, we don't mind an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM LABEL, UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL SET). I have just one question to the authors of the draft: do we have a strong use case for a bidirectional service requiring the fate sharing (as I defined it above) of both directions and fully symmetrical (recovery requirements, colors, etc) apart from the bandwidth requirements? If the answer is yes, than I say I don't mind a copule of extra signaling objects. Igor Adrian Farrel wrote: Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs additional message exchanges. The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem to be beyond this debate. So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay, let me answer this. If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? Regards, Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. Regards, Don Regards, Vijay --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. --0-509371772-1173196313=:8128 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adrian,

I would define "fate sharing" very simply: it is the situation when both directions go through the same links at any time: after setup, protection switchover, recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane the bidirectional service where opposite directions fate-share we have some nice by-products:
a) CP states for both directions could be always combined together with the summary state reduced in size;
b) the management of both directions can be accomplished using a single exchange of signaling messages, This holds for initial setup, protection switchover, recovery, re-route
c) number of RSVP refreshes also is half as much

My understanding is that we do like the notion of a symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet switched network layer.  This is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to migrate from MPLS to GMPLS, and you. Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate of such migration. So, we don't mind an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM LABEL, UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL SET).

I have just one question to the authors of the draft: do we have a strong use case for a bidirectional service requiring the fate sharing (as I defined it above) of both directions and fully symmetrical (recovery requirements, colors, etc) apart from the bandwidth requirements? If the answer is yes, than I say I don't mind a copule of extra signaling objects.

Igor


Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
Hi,

There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure
what problem we are trying to solve.

- Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one
direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions?

- Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one
direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a
switch-over of the other direction, too?

- Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control
plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control
plane state in the other direction?

The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously
makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated
signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs
additional message exchanges.

The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements
of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not
guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is
not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can
be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might
only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling.

End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem
to be beyond this debate.


So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of
asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to:
- We need asymmetrical bidirectional services
- Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the
cost of new signaling objects and procedures?

Adrian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"
To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"

Cc:
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi Vijay,

let me answer this.

If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will
need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate
sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a
single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different
routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property
of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471.

Regards,
Attila

________________________________

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM
To: Don Fedyk
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt



Don,

The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one
direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction
probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing).

So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the
forward and reverse direction. Am I right?

Regards,

Vijay



-----Original Message-----
From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM
To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on
draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi Vijay


________________________________

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
[mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM
To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions on
draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi,

I have some basic questions, primarily trying to
understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a
requirement.

1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric
Bandwidth requirement?

The postulation was that GMPLS today supports
bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a
bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical
TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates
setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like
many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an
implementation.)

So to your question besides bandwidth there is also
underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and
support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A
single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other
words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is
also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each
end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge
the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the
technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and
there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On
the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the
asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple
sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D
ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)

| 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP
Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes?

With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow
bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate
RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated
with the primary bidirectional LSP.

3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make
sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end)
and eventually signal them independently as well?


Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of
the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session &
LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric
path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to
align.

4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse
flows to be on the same path?


That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my
case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data
plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require
bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to
support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and
bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required.

5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this
in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?


Yes it is related. A shared resource link group
identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have
shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths
have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the
shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common
resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail.

Regards,
Don


Regards,

Vijay





Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
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Search weather shortcut. --0-509371772-1173196313=:8128-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Mar 06 11:06:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOcBS-0006Lr-8z for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:06:38 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOcBO-00040m-NE for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:06:38 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOc1G-000ATw-W7 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:56:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [47.129.242.57] (helo=zcars04f.nortel.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOc17-000AT6-LV for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:56:04 +0000 Received: from zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com (zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com [47.140.202.51]) by zcars04f.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l26FtTO22306; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 10:55:29 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 10:55:28 -0500 Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DE723C8@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <0f3801c75fdf$5ba7fc70$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: Acdf32hi2ZbJp61YSn6x64KVRZdvKwAGSKBw References: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E91B19B05@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> <0f3801c75fdf$5ba7fc70$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> From: "Don Fedyk" To: "Adrian Farrel" , "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Pandian, Vijay" Cc: Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c83ccb5cc10e751496398f1233ca9c3a Hi Adrian In an Ethernet bridging context I'll try to add what I know.=20 > -----Original Message----- From: Adrian Farrel > [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 > 6:05 AM To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Fedyk, > Don (BL60:1A00) Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: What is > this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] >=20 > Hi, >=20 > There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" > and I am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. >=20 > - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in > one direction must cause data plane interruption in both > directions? [DF]When we say data plane I suppose it depends on the Physical layer as well. I'm not much of an expert on physical layers but I believe we went over much of this in the GMPLS control of optical.=20 For Ethernet bridging, if there is a fault detected in one direction the OAM signals the fault and at a minimum an alarm is raised. I don't believe there is an immediate attempt to interupt data but one result may be to use the indication or activate protection or restoration mechanisms.=20 In Ethernet bridging the Bridge Relay is a bi-drectional functions=20 that is attached to two ports. (below the ports there may be=20 unidirectional links).=20 =20 >=20 > - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of > one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a > switch-over of the other direction, too? [DF]In Ethernet this is the case. Unidirectional Ethernet would not support many Ethernet features.=20 >=20 > - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of > control plane state in one direction must cause the > removal of control plane state in the other direction? [DF]I don't know if I can parse this. "removal of control plane state in one direction in a bidirectional LSP?" I think you may be refering to the case where two RSVP-TE sessions control a single bi-directional path. The point is the data plane should not be unidirectionally active since this would create issues with OAM functions that assume a bidirectional data plane. =20 >=20 > The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional > signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing > automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not > preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs > additional message exchanges. [DF]True but in the case of associated case there is also a concept of a master and slave relationship between the associated signaling paths for any given action. This requires new capability as well. >=20 > The use of an identical path for both directions can > provide some elements of data plane fate sharing, but it > is important to note that it does not guarantee it. For > example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is > not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as > the directions can be installed on the path by associated > signaling, and as a failure might only impact one > direction in bidirectional signaling. [DF]The bi-directional aspects are at the L2 Ethernet bridge level. Unidirectional faults are detected as loss of Connectivity check messages or the like and declared the ethernet LSP in fault. What action is taken depends on the choice of configuration and control plane. >=20 > End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different=20 > level and seem to be beyond this debate. [DF]There could be an association object to implement some aspects of co-ordination between a primary and a backup LSP. >=20 >=20 > So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the > discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion > has reduced to: > - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services=20 > - Does the value of a single signaling exchange > outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? [DF]The fate sharing aspect is related to the Ethernet bi-directionality. We need bi-directional Ethernet LSPs=20 with (symmetric or asymmetric BW). This requirement is stronger=20 than your first point. Perhaps Fate sharing is not the right or the best term. My understanding of Ethernet is a typically a Spanning tree creates the bi-directional Ethernet paths that have these properties. You can also configure static Ethernet paths that have the same properties.=20 Regards, Don=20 >=20 > Adrian >=20 From lhuoblivion@bilder.nu Tue Mar 06 11:11:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOcGR-0000z2-V2 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:11:47 -0500 Received: from ip-90-186-39-254.web.vodafone.de ([90.186.39.254] helo=bilder.nu) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOcGN-0004yP-Ll for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:11:47 -0500 Received: from ([185.202.28.247]) by (0.89.8/0.89.8) with SMTP id 64F5F86C3F5C76; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:14:38 +0100 Message-ID: <001201c76012$ebe32c00$01c0cd1c@padd> From: "Debra Donnelly" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: For private is scandal Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:14:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C76012.EBE32C00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.181 X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1e467ff145ef391eb7b594ef62b8301f This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C76012.EBE32C00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C76012.EBE32C00" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C76012.EBE32C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable common stage of the world. And here I will observe, by the bye, that you = discover those two principal figures: both by the deference which you = laziness, or a contempt of the object, which deprives them of several = not be reformed by you if you do not. have it) with urbanity for you have not yet heard enough either to there = it is that the experience of a friend may not only serve, but save is, = notwithstanding, false in itself, unjust, and criminal. I do not know = being made up of those weaknesses. They cannot see people suffer without little enough in itself, yet as it occurs at, least once in every day, = some degree of shame and confusion) into all the Cardinal Virtues, by = Pray let no quibbles of lawyers, no refinements of casuists, break into As I make no difficulty of confessing my past errors, where I think the = wretched chorus, disgraces and disqualifies himself soon for any better = immediately bought an annuity for his life of five hundred pounds a = year, For instance: you will find, in every group of company, two = principal "Lexicon," where I found a word that puzzled me, and which I did not = rank are frequently, and very justly admitted into it, if distinguished = importance, the advantage, of having the Graces but I cannot give them = that it necessarily teaches you to present yourself, to sit, stand, and are not the least surprised to hear of a sea-captain, who has blown up = against such company, but yet I do not think it wholly, unnecessary, = from patience (and at least seeming attention), if he is worth obliging = for would repeat, out of company, what passed in it, yet I could not = answer supercilious, cynical face, or an embarrassed countenance, or a silly, = Most long talkers single out some one unfortunate man in company merit, = intrude into it by their own forwardness, and others slide into it but, = on the contrary, think how much handsomer he would have been without caution, have talked upon the same subject, and in the same manner, to a = children, seeming friends, etc., that, with the best intentions in the = merit, intrude into it by their own forwardness, and others slide into = it in the print, 'non mai a bastanza'. Observe every word, look, and = motion the place call, and acknowledge to be, good company, notwithstanding = some that this truth is full as applicable to every other art or science = nobles' equally forbid insolent contempt, or low envy and jealousy. Low = the Graces and the latter not. I have known many a woman with an exact eminently illiterate wrote bad English and spelled it still worse. He = confound them, and lose your own labor if you talk to them too sense and = reason seem to subside, and one sudden frenzy to seize on all, plain, = sure, and undisputed rule of morality and justice. Stick to that = wherever they go, to hinder them from breaking their necks. This degree, = not to say engrossed them and indeed he got the most by them ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C76012.EBE32C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
common stage of the world. = And here I will observe, by the bye, that you discover those two = principal figures: both by the deference which you laziness, or a = contempt of the object, which deprives them of several not be reformed = by you if you do not.
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have it) with urbanity for = you have not yet heard enough either to there it is that the experience = of a friend may not only serve, but save is, notwithstanding, false in = itself, unjust, and criminal. I do not know being made up of those = weaknesses. They cannot see people suffer without
little enough in itself, yet = as it occurs at, least once in every day, some degree of shame and = confusion) into all the Cardinal Virtues, by Pray let no quibbles of = lawyers, no refinements of casuists, break into
As I make no difficulty of = confessing my past errors, where I think the wretched chorus, disgraces = and disqualifies himself soon for any better immediately bought an = annuity for his life of five hundred pounds a year, For instance: you = will find, in every group of company, two principal
"Lexicon," where I found a = word that puzzled me, and which I did not rank are frequently, and very = justly admitted into it, if distinguished importance, the advantage, of = having the Graces but I cannot give them that it necessarily teaches you = to present yourself, to sit, stand, and
are not the least surprised = to hear of a sea-captain, who has blown up against such company, but yet = I do not think it wholly, unnecessary, from patience (and at least = seeming attention), if he is worth obliging for would repeat, out of = company, what passed in it, yet I could not answer
supercilious, cynical face, = or an embarrassed countenance, or a silly, Most long talkers single out = some one unfortunate man in company merit, intrude into it by their own = forwardness, and others slide into it but, on the contrary, think how = much handsomer he would have been without
caution, have talked upon = the same subject, and in the same manner, to a children, seeming = friends, etc., that, with the best intentions in the merit, intrude into = it by their own forwardness, and others slide into it in the print, 'non = mai a bastanza'. Observe every word, look, and motion
the place call, and = acknowledge to be, good company, notwithstanding some that this truth is = full as applicable to every other art or science nobles' equally forbid = insolent contempt, or low envy and jealousy. Low the Graces and the = latter not. I have known many a woman with an exact
eminently illiterate wrote = bad English and spelled it still worse. He confound them, and lose your = own labor if you talk to them too sense and reason seem to subside, and = one sudden frenzy to seize on all, plain, sure, and undisputed rule of = morality and justice. Stick to that wherever they go, to hinder them = from breaking their necks. This degree, not to say engrossed them and = indeed he got the most by them
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Bkc8ud/rFhoA/hLlvRG7O+AInuBUIXAKXhKhC7zbrd4I0OAUXuHLlW5mRbnt5RbM6LjRFt/P 8d0W3hUBAQA7 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C76012.EBE32C00-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Mar 06 12:27:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOdRl-0005u0-Aq for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 12:27:33 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOdRf-00009a-VF for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 12:27:33 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOdDx-000K5o-U7 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:13:17 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO,HTML_MESSAGE,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [217.32.164.150] (helo=smtp2.smtp.bt.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOdDp-000K57-Ub for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:13:12 +0000 Received: from i2kc06-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.70]) by smtp2.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:13:07 +0000 Received: from i2km99-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.31]) by i2kc06-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:13:05 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C76012.B3D0B7AD" Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:13:04 -0000 Message-ID: <3C2E60A2B33F124A8A702388733BB60656E1AD@i2km99-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: AcdgB5MvNSkzhD01QDKkO201diGMVgACL7FA From: To: , , , , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2007 17:13:05.0019 (UTC) FILETIME=[B4134CB0:01C76012] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 81ca0cebdb446e1ff4e2b634791f24a9 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76012.B3D0B7AD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Igor, =20 I can think of one good case. In CO mode layer networks the 2 key OAM messages are CV (Connectivity Verification) and BDI (Backward Defect Indication). These OAM messages should be present on the trails in each direction. The key purpose of BDI is to allow a single end to see the failure state of its outgoing direction, eg case of unidirectional connection failure. For this be of use in a link in a layer N network for a unidirectional failure of a trail in a layer N-1 network serving that link, one needs congruent bidirectional trail routings in both those layer networks.....and clearly this is a recursive requirement between any layers. =20 regards, Neil -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin Sent: 06 March 2007 15:52 To: Adrian Farrel; Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Adrian, I would define "fate sharing" very simply: it is the situation when both directions go through the same links at any time: after setup, protection switchover, recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane the bidirectional service where opposite directions fate-share we have some nice by-products: a) CP states for both directions could be always combined together with the summary state reduced in size; b) the management of both directions can be accomplished using a single exchange of signaling messages, This holds for initial setup, protection switchover, recovery, re-route c) number of RSVP refreshes also is half as much My understanding is that we do like the notion of a symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet switched network layer. This is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to migrate from MPLS to GMPLS, and you. Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate of such migration. So, we don't mind an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM LABEL, UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL SET). I have just one question to the authors of the draft: do we have a strong use case for a bidirectional service requiring the fate sharing (as I defined it above) of both directions and fully symmetrical (recovery requirements, colors, etc) apart from the bandwidth requirements? If the answer is yes, than I say I don't mind a copule of extra signaling objects. Igor Adrian Farrel wrote:=20 Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure=20 what problem we are trying to solve. - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously=20 makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated=20 signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs=20 additional message exchanges. The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements=20 of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is=20 not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can=20 be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem=20 to be beyond this debate. So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of=20 asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? Adrian ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"=20 To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20 Cc:=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay, let me answer this. If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? Regards, Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. Regards, Don Regards, Vijay _____ =20 Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast=20 with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76012.B3D0B7AD Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Igor,
 
I can think of one good case.  In CO mode layer networks = the 2 key=20 OAM messages are CV (Connectivity Verification) and BDI (Backward Defect = Indication).  These OAM messages should be present on the = trails in=20 each direction.  The key purpose of BDI is to allow a single end to = see the=20 failure state of its outgoing direction, eg case of unidirectional=20 connection failure.  For this be of use in a link in a layer N = network for=20 a unidirectional failure of a trail in a layer N-1 network serving that = link,=20 one needs congruent bidirectional trail routings in both those layer=20 networks.....and clearly this is a recursive requirement between any=20 layers.
 
regards, Neil
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of=20 Igor Bryskin
Sent: 06 March 2007 15:52
To: = Adrian=20 Farrel; Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don = Fedyk
Cc:=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing = thing?=20 [Was: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt]

Adrian,

I = would=20 define "fate sharing" very simply: it is the situation when both = directions go=20 through the same links at any time: after setup, protection = switchover,=20 recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane the bidirectional service = where=20 opposite directions fate-share we have some nice by-products:
a) CP = states=20 for both directions could be always combined together with the summary = state=20 reduced in size;
b) the management of both directions can be = accomplished=20 using a single exchange of signaling messages, This holds for initial = setup,=20 protection switchover, recovery, re-route
c) number of RSVP = refreshes also=20 is half as much

My understanding is that we do like the notion = of a=20 symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet switched network = layer.  This=20 is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to migrate from MPLS to GMPLS, = and you.=20 Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate of such migration. So, we = don't mind=20 an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM LABEL, UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL = SET).

I have just one question to the authors of the draft: do = we have=20 a strong use case for a bidirectional service requiring the fate = sharing (as I=20 defined it above) of both directions and fully symmetrical (recovery=20 requirements, colors, etc) apart from the bandwidth requirements? If = the=20 answer is yes, than I say I don't mind a copule of extra signaling=20 objects.

Igor


Adrian Farrel=20 <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
Hi,

There=20 has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure =
what=20 problem we are trying to solve.

- Is this a data plane = feature where=20 a data plane fault in one
direction must cause data plane = interruption in=20 both directions?

- Is this a protection feature where the = switch-over=20 of one
direction to its backup path must be accompanied by=20 a
switch-over of the other direction, too?

- Is this a = control=20 plane feature where the removal of control
plane state in one = direction=20 must cause the removal of control
plane state in the other=20 direction?

The use of a single control plane state = (bidirectional=20 signaling) obviously
makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, = but the=20 use of associated
signaling does not preclude control plane fate = sharing=20 - it just needs
additional message exchanges.

The use of = an=20 identical path for both directions can provide some elements
of = data=20 plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not=20
guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. = This issue=20 is
not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the=20 directions can
be installed on the path by associated signaling, = and as=20 a failure might
only impact one direction in bidirectional=20 signaling.

End-to-end protection features are implemented at = a=20 different level and seem
to be beyond this debate.


So = I am=20 wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of=20
asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced = to:
- We=20 need asymmetrical bidirectional services
- Does the value of a = single=20 signaling exchange outweigh the
cost of new signaling objects and = procedures?

Adrian

----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"
To: = "Pandian,=20 Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20

Cc:
Sent: = Tuesday, March=20 06, 2007 10:34 AM
Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi Vijay,

let me = answer=20 this.

If you need different protection for each direction = then you=20 likely will
need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better = uses=20 separate
sessions for the two directions since all the benefits = of having=20 a
single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take=20 different
routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical = bandwidth=20 property
of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in=20 = RFC3471.

Regards,
Attila

_______________________________= _

From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] = On
Behalf Of=20 Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM
To: Don=20 Fedyk
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt



Don,

The = question I=20 had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one
direction = required=20 a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction
probably = required=20 some basic P&R (say Re-routing).

So the requirement is to = use the=20 same "physical link" for the
forward and reverse direction. Am I=20 right?

Regards,

Vijay



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]
Sent: = Monday,=20 March 05, 2007 6:41 PM
To: Pandian, Vijay; = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject:=20 RE: Questions on
draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi=20 Vijay


________________________________

From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
[mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of=20 Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM
To:=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions=20 on
draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi,

I have = some=20 basic questions, primarily trying to
understand the scope of this = ID as=20 well as the application behind such a
requirement.

1. Does = this ID=20 address just an asymmetric
Bandwidth requirement?

The = postulation=20 was that GMPLS today supports
bi-directional service with a = single=20 RSVP-TE session creating a
bidirectional LSP. The most common=20 implementation of this is Optical
TDM networks. Since this was = the=20 starting point, the ID postulates
setting up an asymmetric = service with a=20 single asymmetric LSP. (Like
many new drafts it sets a = requirement and=20 postulates a an
implementation.)

So to your question = besides=20 bandwidth there is also
underlying requirement to align with = GMPLS single=20 session procedures and
support a bi-directional packet data plane = as=20 Ethernet does today. A
single bidirectional (in this case = asymmetric BW=20 capable) LSP. In other
words a single RSVP-TE session. Several = people=20 have pointed out this is
also achievable with two unidirectional = RSVP-TE=20 sessions (one at each
end). Rather than reopen that debate on = this thread=20 I will acknowledge
the authors had a single session in mind more = as a=20 requirement of the
technology. Ethernet data forwarding is = bi-directional=20 symmetric and
there are efficiencies in a single session of a=20 bi-directional LSP. On
the other hand the issue is there is = currently no=20 way to specify the
asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros = and=20 cons of multiple
sessions versus single there is already a thread = on this=20 (RE: I-D
ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)

| 2. How = about=20 other attributes? in particular LSP
Protection & Recovery = (P&R)=20 related attributes?

With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to=20 allow
bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by=20 separate
RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE = session=20 associated
with the primary bidirectional LSP.

3. If = P&R are=20 indeed different, doesn't it make
sense to route them separately=20 (separate CSPF calculation at each end)
and eventually signal = them=20 independently as well?


Hopefully I addressed part of this = already. Recovery of
the bi-directional LSP could be handled by = another=20 RSVP-TE session &
LSP. The data plane in our case must have a = bi-directional symmetric
path so you can only do a CSPF at one = end and/or=20 force the paths to
align.

4. Is there a need for the = forward and=20 reverse
flows to be on the same path?


That is the way = an=20 Ethernet data plane works, and in my
case this is where the = requirement=20 comes from. There is Ethernet data
plane OAM and in some cases = Ethernet=20 forwarding rules that both require
bi-directional symmetric = paths. The=20 requirement is to be able to
support native Ethernet loopback and = data=20 plane trace functions and
bi-directional symmetry in the data = plane is=20 required.

5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find = this
in other=20 RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint = paths?


Yes it=20 is related. A shared resource link group
identifies shared = resources at=20 some granularity. Fate shared paths have
shared resources at a = very high=20 level of granularity. Disjoint paths
have none or very few shared = resources. For a bidirectional path the
shared fate comes from = the fact=20 that both direction have common
resources and if one fails the = other is=20 likely to=20 = fail.

Regards,
Don


Regards,

Vijay


=


Don't get soaked. Take a=20 quick peak at the forecast
with theYahoo!=20 Search weather shortcut.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C76012.B3D0B7AD-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Mar 06 12:49:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOdnR-0005Ae-7G for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 12:49:57 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOdnP-0003x7-3T for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 12:49:57 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOdbj-000MIq-5a for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:37:51 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [47.140.192.55] (helo=zrtps0kn.nortel.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOdba-000MHs-Lr for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:37:47 +0000 Received: from zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com (zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com [47.140.202.51]) by zrtps0kn.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l26HbWE01030; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:37:33 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C76016.148731CC" Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:37:14 -0500 Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DE726EB@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <555335.8128.qm@web36802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: AcdgB1+pVqrAz8IKQMiWxO1Rz8IXUgAAH5qw References: <0f3801c75fdf$5ba7fc70$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> <555335.8128.qm@web36802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: "Don Fedyk" To: "Igor Bryskin" , "Adrian Farrel" , "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Pandian, Vijay" Cc: Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bf298c52ab1dc9f39fd87b679918f163 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76016.148731CC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Igor =20 Good points. Comments in line. ________________________________ From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:52 AM =09 =09 Adrian, =09 I would define "fate sharing" very simply: it is the situation when both directions go through the same links at any time: after setup, protection switchover, recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane the bidirectional service where opposite directions fate-share we have some nice by-products:=20 =20 =20 In Ethernet Bridging the "fate sharing" object is the to the level of ports on the bridge relay. Both direction of the path must pass through the Bridge relay. There may be link aggregation functions below this. So I would adjust your definition slightly to include same "link objects". =20 =20 a) CP states for both directions could be always combined together with the summary state reduced in size; b) the management of both directions can be accomplished using a single exchange of signaling messages, This holds for initial setup, protection switchover, recovery, re-route c) number of RSVP refreshes also is half as much =09 My understanding is that we do like the notion of a symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet switched network layer. This is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to migrate from MPLS to GMPLS, and you. Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate of such migration. So, we don't mind an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM LABEL, UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL SET). =09 I have just one question to the authors of the draft: do we have a strong use case for a bidirectional service requiring the fate sharing (as I defined it above) of both directions and fully symmetrical (recovery requirements, colors, etc) apart from the bandwidth requirements? If the answer is yes, than I say I don't mind a copule of extra signaling objects.=20 =20 We have a draft for GMPLS control of Ethernet PBB-TE which is an emerging L2 data plane. The Ethernet bridge relay function assumes bi-directionality. Ethernet data plane OAM is built on the bi-directional relay. IMHO in that context the answer to your question is yes. =20 =20 In fact I think the requirement for asymmetrical BW is just related to the fact we have a packet technology. (MPLS is no different).=20 The need for bi-directional fate sharing is from the requirements of the Ethernet Bridging Relay and our desire to leverage the Relay capabilities (this packet layer is different). =20 The use case cited for this requirement is the distribution of packet Video which may well be high BW in one direction and relatively small in the other but even my Internet connection is asymmetric today and I don't use it for video. So the use case applies to all kinds of of packet transport.=20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =09 Igor =09 =09 Adrian Farrel wrote: Hi, =09 There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure=20 what problem we are trying to solve. =09 - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? =09 - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? =09 - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? =09 The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously=20 makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated=20 signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs=20 additional message exchanges. =09 The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements=20 of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not=20 guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is=20 not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can=20 be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might=20 only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. =09 End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem=20 to be beyond this debate. =09 =09 So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of=20 asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? =09 Adrian =09 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"=20 To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20 =09 Cc:=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi Vijay, =09 let me answer this. =09 If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. =09 Regards, Attila =09 ________________________________ =09 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 =09 Don, =09 The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). =09 So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? =09 Regards, =09 Vijay =09 =09 =09 -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi Vijay =09 =09 ________________________________ =09 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi, =09 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =09 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? =09 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =09 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =09 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? =09 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. =09 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? =09 =09 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. =09 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? =09 =09 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. =09 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? =09 =09 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. =09 Regards, Don =09 =09 Regards, =09 Vijay =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 ________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast =20 with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76016.148731CC Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Igor
 
Good points.  Comments in=20 line.

From: Igor Bryskin=20 [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 = 10:52=20 AM

Adrian,

I would define "fate sharing" very simply: it is = the=20 situation when both directions go through the same links at any time: = after=20 setup, protection switchover, recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane = the=20 bidirectional service where opposite directions fate-share we have = some nice=20 by-products: 
 
 
In=20 Ethernet Bridging the "fate sharing" object is the to the level of ports = on the bridge relay.  Both direction of the path must = pass=20 through the Bridge relay. There may be link aggregation functions = below=20 this. So I would adjust your definition slightly to include same "link=20 objects". 
 
 
a) CP states = for both=20 directions could be always combined together with the summary state = reduced in=20 size;
b) the management of both directions can be accomplished = using a=20 single exchange of signaling messages, This holds for initial setup,=20 protection switchover, recovery, re-route
c) number of RSVP = refreshes also=20 is half as much

My understanding is that we do like the notion = of a=20 symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet switched network = layer.  This=20 is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to migrate from MPLS to GMPLS, = and you.=20 Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate of such migration. So, we = don't mind=20 an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM LABEL, UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL = SET).

I have just one question to the authors of the draft: do = we have=20 a strong use case for a bidirectional service requiring the fate = sharing (as I=20 defined it above) of both directions and fully symmetrical (recovery=20 requirements, colors, etc) apart from the bandwidth requirements? If = the=20 answer is yes, than I say I don't mind a copule of extra signaling=20 objects. 
 
We=20 have a draft for GMPLS control of Ethernet PBB-TE which is an emerging = L2 data=20 plane.  The Ethernet bridge relay function assumes = bi-directionality.=20 Ethernet data plane OAM is built on the bi-directional = relay.   IMHO=20 in that context the answer to your question is yes.   =20
 
In=20 fact I think the requirement for asymmetrical BW is just related to the = fact we=20 have a packet technology. (MPLS is no different). =
The=20 need for bi-directional fate sharing is from the requirements of the = Ethernet=20 Bridging Relay and our desire to leverage the Relay capabilities (this = packet=20 layer is different).  
The=20 use case cited for this requirement is the distribution of packet Video = which=20 may well be high BW in one direction and relatively small in the = other but=20 even my Internet connection is asymmetric today and I don't use it for = video. So=20 the use case applies to all kinds of of packet transport.=20
 
Regards,
Don=20

Igor


Adrian Farrel=20 <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
Hi,

There=20 has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure =
what=20 problem we are trying to solve.

- Is this a data plane = feature where=20 a data plane fault in one
direction must cause data plane = interruption in=20 both directions?

- Is this a protection feature where the = switch-over=20 of one
direction to its backup path must be accompanied by=20 a
switch-over of the other direction, too?

- Is this a = control=20 plane feature where the removal of control
plane state in one = direction=20 must cause the removal of control
plane state in the other=20 direction?

The use of a single control plane state = (bidirectional=20 signaling) obviously
makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, = but the=20 use of associated
signaling does not preclude control plane fate = sharing=20 - it just needs
additional message exchanges.

The use of = an=20 identical path for both directions can provide some elements
of = data=20 plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not=20
guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. = This issue=20 is
not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the=20 directions can
be installed on the path by associated signaling, = and as=20 a failure might
only impact one direction in bidirectional=20 signaling.

End-to-end protection features are implemented at = a=20 different level and seem
to be beyond this debate.


So = I am=20 wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of=20
asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced = to:
- We=20 need asymmetrical bidirectional services
- Does the value of a = single=20 signaling exchange outweigh the
cost of new signaling objects and = procedures?

Adrian

----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"
To: = "Pandian,=20 Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20

Cc:
Sent: = Tuesday, March=20 06, 2007 10:34 AM
Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi Vijay,

let me = answer=20 this.

If you need different protection for each direction = then you=20 likely will
need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better = uses=20 separate
sessions for the two directions since all the benefits = of having=20 a
single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take=20 different
routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical = bandwidth=20 property
of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in=20 = RFC3471.

Regards,
Attila

_______________________________= _

From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] = On
Behalf Of=20 Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM
To: Don=20 Fedyk
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt



Don,

The = question I=20 had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one
direction = required=20 a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction
probably = required=20 some basic P&R (say Re-routing).

So the requirement is to = use the=20 same "physical link" for the
forward and reverse direction. Am I=20 right?

Regards,

Vijay



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]
Sent: = Monday,=20 March 05, 2007 6:41 PM
To: Pandian, Vijay; = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject:=20 RE: Questions on
draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi=20 Vijay


________________________________

From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
[mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of=20 Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM
To:=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions=20 on
draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi,

I have = some=20 basic questions, primarily trying to
understand the scope of this = ID as=20 well as the application behind such a
requirement.

1. Does = this ID=20 address just an asymmetric
Bandwidth requirement?

The = postulation=20 was that GMPLS today supports
bi-directional service with a = single=20 RSVP-TE session creating a
bidirectional LSP. The most common=20 implementation of this is Optical
TDM networks. Since this was = the=20 starting point, the ID postulates
setting up an asymmetric = service with a=20 single asymmetric LSP. (Like
many new drafts it sets a = requirement and=20 postulates a an
implementation.)

So to your question = besides=20 bandwidth there is also
underlying requirement to align with = GMPLS single=20 session procedures and
support a bi-directional packet data plane = as=20 Ethernet does today. A
single bidirectional (in this case = asymmetric BW=20 capable) LSP. In other
words a single RSVP-TE session. Several = people=20 have pointed out this is
also achievable with two unidirectional = RSVP-TE=20 sessions (one at each
end). Rather than reopen that debate on = this thread=20 I will acknowledge
the authors had a single session in mind more = as a=20 requirement of the
technology. Ethernet data forwarding is = bi-directional=20 symmetric and
there are efficiencies in a single session of a=20 bi-directional LSP. On
the other hand the issue is there is = currently no=20 way to specify the
asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros = and=20 cons of multiple
sessions versus single there is already a thread = on this=20 (RE: I-D
ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)

| 2. How = about=20 other attributes? in particular LSP
Protection & Recovery = (P&R)=20 related attributes?

With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to=20 allow
bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by=20 separate
RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE = session=20 associated
with the primary bidirectional LSP.

3. If = P&R are=20 indeed different, doesn't it make
sense to route them separately=20 (separate CSPF calculation at each end)
and eventually signal = them=20 independently as well?


Hopefully I addressed part of this = already. Recovery of
the bi-directional LSP could be handled by = another=20 RSVP-TE session &
LSP. The data plane in our case must have a = bi-directional symmetric
path so you can only do a CSPF at one = end and/or=20 force the paths to
align.

4. Is there a need for the = forward and=20 reverse
flows to be on the same path?


That is the way = an=20 Ethernet data plane works, and in my
case this is where the = requirement=20 comes from. There is Ethernet data
plane OAM and in some cases = Ethernet=20 forwarding rules that both require
bi-directional symmetric = paths. The=20 requirement is to be able to
support native Ethernet loopback and = data=20 plane trace functions and
bi-directional symmetry in the data = plane is=20 required.

5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find = this
in other=20 RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint = paths?


Yes it=20 is related. A shared resource link group
identifies shared = resources at=20 some granularity. Fate shared paths have
shared resources at a = very high=20 level of granularity. Disjoint paths
have none or very few shared = resources. For a bidirectional path the
shared fate comes from = the fact=20 that both direction have common
resources and if one fails the = other is=20 likely to=20 = fail.

Regards,
Don


Regards,

Vijay


=


Don't get soaked. Take a=20 quick peak at the forecast
with theYahoo!=20 Search weather shortcut.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C76016.148731CC-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Mar 06 14:57:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOfnF-00049E-2v for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:57:53 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOfn7-0001lu-W3 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:57:52 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOfe4-000Brl-8M for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 19:48:24 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [193.180.251.62] (helo=mailgw4.ericsson.se) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOfdx-000BrC-PO for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 19:48:21 +0000 Received: from mailgw4.ericsson.se (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 3FC39211F5; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:48:15 +0100 (CET) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3e-b1ecbbb000003386-7b-45edc57f0d14 Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.123]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 103DE200F2; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:48:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.200.7]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:48:14 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C76028.60F99471" Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:48:13 +0100 Message-ID: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E91B5834A@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <555335.8128.qm@web36802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] thread-index: AcdgB2D9Ae1SUgPlTI+XvANRWuNJWwAF8lHA From: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" To: "Igor Bryskin" , "Adrian Farrel" , "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2007 19:48:14.0370 (UTC) FILETIME=[60E18820:01C76028] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 713965ef965c5660ee5d9a664a73ef4a This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76028.60F99471 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Igor, =20 I think the point is on flexibility. If bandwidth is available with fine granularity one can leverage this in many cases. To add a new example: central office - branch office connectivity, in this scenario it seems to be likely to have the same recovery...etc requirements but different bw needs for up/down streams. =20 Regarding "fate sharing", as you specified, it depends on how one defines "a strong use case"...one may use diversely routed LSPs as well to provide bidirectional connection for, e.g., the above service, but with co routed LSPs issues may become simpler (like management, CP states, OAM,...).=20 =20 Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 4:52 PM To: Adrian Farrel; Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] =09 =09 Adrian, =09 I would define "fate sharing" very simply: it is the situation when both directions go through the same links at any time: after setup, protection switchover, recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane the bidirectional service where opposite directions fate-share we have some nice by-products: a) CP states for both directions could be always combined together with the summary state reduced in size; b) the management of both directions can be accomplished using a single exchange of signaling messages, This holds for initial setup, protection switchover, recovery, re-route c) number of RSVP refreshes also is half as much =09 My understanding is that we do like the notion of a symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet switched network layer. This is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to migrate from MPLS to GMPLS, and you. Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate of such migration. So, we don't mind an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM LABEL, UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL SET). =09 I have just one question to the authors of the draft: do we have a strong use case for a bidirectional service requiring the fate sharing (as I defined it above) of both directions and fully symmetrical (recovery requirements, colors, etc) apart from the bandwidth requirements? If the answer is yes, than I say I don't mind a copule of extra signaling objects. =09 Igor =09 =09 Adrian Farrel wrote:=20 Hi, =09 There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure=20 what problem we are trying to solve. =09 - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? =09 - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? =09 - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? =09 The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously=20 makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated=20 signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs=20 additional message exchanges. =09 The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements=20 of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not=20 guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is=20 not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can=20 be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might=20 only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. =09 End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem=20 to be beyond this debate. =09 =09 So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of=20 asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? =09 Adrian =09 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"=20 To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20 =09 Cc:=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi Vijay, =09 let me answer this. =09 If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. =09 Regards, Attila =09 ________________________________ =09 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 =09 Don, =09 The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). =09 So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? =09 Regards, =09 Vijay =09 =09 =09 -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi Vijay =09 =09 ________________________________ =09 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi, =09 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =09 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? =09 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =09 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =09 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? =09 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. =09 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? =09 =09 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. =09 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? =09 =09 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. =09 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? =09 =09 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. =09 Regards, Don =09 =09 Regards, =09 Vijay =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 ________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast =20 with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76028.60F99471 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 Igor,
 
I=20 think the point is on flexibility. If bandwidth is available with fine=20 granularity one can leverage this in many cases. To add a new = example:=20 central office - branch office connectivity, in this scenario it=20 seems to be likely to have the same recovery...etc requirements but = different bw needs for up/down streams.
 
Regarding "fate sharing", as you specified, it depends on how = one defines=20 "a strong use case"...one may use diversely routed LSPs as well to = provide=20 bidirectional connection for, e.g., the above service, but with co = routed LSPs=20 issues may become simpler (like management, CP states, OAM,...).=20
 
Regards,
Attila

From: Igor Bryskin=20 [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 = 4:52=20 PM
To: Adrian Farrel; Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, = Vijay; Don=20 Fedyk
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: What is = this=20 fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt]

Adrian,

I would define "fate sharing" very simply: = it is the=20 situation when both directions go through the same links at any time: = after=20 setup, protection switchover, recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane = the=20 bidirectional service where opposite directions fate-share we have = some nice=20 by-products:
a) CP states for both directions could be always = combined=20 together with the summary state reduced in size;
b) the management = of both=20 directions can be accomplished using a single exchange of signaling = messages,=20 This holds for initial setup, protection switchover, recovery, = re-route
c)=20 number of RSVP refreshes also is half as much

My understanding = is that=20 we do like the notion of a symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet = switched=20 network layer.  This is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to = migrate=20 from MPLS to GMPLS, and you. Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate = of such=20 migration. So, we don't mind an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM = LABEL,=20 UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL SET).

I have just one question to the = authors=20 of the draft: do we have a strong use case for a bidirectional service = requiring the fate sharing (as I defined it above) of both directions = and=20 fully symmetrical (recovery requirements, colors, etc) apart from the=20 bandwidth requirements? If the answer is yes, than I say I don't mind = a copule=20 of extra signaling objects.

Igor


Adrian Farrel = <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
Hi,

There=20 has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure =
what=20 problem we are trying to solve.

- Is this a data plane = feature where=20 a data plane fault in one
direction must cause data plane = interruption in=20 both directions?

- Is this a protection feature where the = switch-over=20 of one
direction to its backup path must be accompanied by=20 a
switch-over of the other direction, too?

- Is this a = control=20 plane feature where the removal of control
plane state in one = direction=20 must cause the removal of control
plane state in the other=20 direction?

The use of a single control plane state = (bidirectional=20 signaling) obviously
makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, = but the=20 use of associated
signaling does not preclude control plane fate = sharing=20 - it just needs
additional message exchanges.

The use of = an=20 identical path for both directions can provide some elements
of = data=20 plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not=20
guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. = This issue=20 is
not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the=20 directions can
be installed on the path by associated signaling, = and as=20 a failure might
only impact one direction in bidirectional=20 signaling.

End-to-end protection features are implemented at = a=20 different level and seem
to be beyond this debate.


So = I am=20 wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of=20
asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced = to:
- We=20 need asymmetrical bidirectional services
- Does the value of a = single=20 signaling exchange outweigh the
cost of new signaling objects and = procedures?

Adrian

----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"
To: = "Pandian,=20 Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20

Cc:
Sent: = Tuesday, March=20 06, 2007 10:34 AM
Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi Vijay,

let me = answer=20 this.

If you need different protection for each direction = then you=20 likely will
need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better = uses=20 separate
sessions for the two directions since all the benefits = of having=20 a
single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take=20 different
routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical = bandwidth=20 property
of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in=20 = RFC3471.

Regards,
Attila

_______________________________= _

From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] = On
Behalf Of=20 Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM
To: Don=20 Fedyk
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt



Don,

The = question I=20 had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one
direction = required=20 a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction
probably = required=20 some basic P&R (say Re-routing).

So the requirement is to = use the=20 same "physical link" for the
forward and reverse direction. Am I=20 right?

Regards,

Vijay



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]
Sent: = Monday,=20 March 05, 2007 6:41 PM
To: Pandian, Vijay; = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject:=20 RE: Questions on
draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi=20 Vijay


________________________________

From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
[mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of=20 Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM
To:=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions=20 on
draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi,

I have = some=20 basic questions, primarily trying to
understand the scope of this = ID as=20 well as the application behind such a
requirement.

1. Does = this ID=20 address just an asymmetric
Bandwidth requirement?

The = postulation=20 was that GMPLS today supports
bi-directional service with a = single=20 RSVP-TE session creating a
bidirectional LSP. The most common=20 implementation of this is Optical
TDM networks. Since this was = the=20 starting point, the ID postulates
setting up an asymmetric = service with a=20 single asymmetric LSP. (Like
many new drafts it sets a = requirement and=20 postulates a an
implementation.)

So to your question = besides=20 bandwidth there is also
underlying requirement to align with = GMPLS single=20 session procedures and
support a bi-directional packet data plane = as=20 Ethernet does today. A
single bidirectional (in this case = asymmetric BW=20 capable) LSP. In other
words a single RSVP-TE session. Several = people=20 have pointed out this is
also achievable with two unidirectional = RSVP-TE=20 sessions (one at each
end). Rather than reopen that debate on = this thread=20 I will acknowledge
the authors had a single session in mind more = as a=20 requirement of the
technology. Ethernet data forwarding is = bi-directional=20 symmetric and
there are efficiencies in a single session of a=20 bi-directional LSP. On
the other hand the issue is there is = currently no=20 way to specify the
asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros = and=20 cons of multiple
sessions versus single there is already a thread = on this=20 (RE: I-D
ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)

| 2. How = about=20 other attributes? in particular LSP
Protection & Recovery = (P&R)=20 related attributes?

With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to=20 allow
bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by=20 separate
RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE = session=20 associated
with the primary bidirectional LSP.

3. If = P&R are=20 indeed different, doesn't it make
sense to route them separately=20 (separate CSPF calculation at each end)
and eventually signal = them=20 independently as well?


Hopefully I addressed part of this = already. Recovery of
the bi-directional LSP could be handled by = another=20 RSVP-TE session &
LSP. The data plane in our case must have a = bi-directional symmetric
path so you can only do a CSPF at one = end and/or=20 force the paths to
align.

4. Is there a need for the = forward and=20 reverse
flows to be on the same path?


That is the way = an=20 Ethernet data plane works, and in my
case this is where the = requirement=20 comes from. There is Ethernet data
plane OAM and in some cases = Ethernet=20 forwarding rules that both require
bi-directional symmetric = paths. The=20 requirement is to be able to
support native Ethernet loopback and = data=20 plane trace functions and
bi-directional symmetry in the data = plane is=20 required.

5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find = this
in other=20 RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint = paths?


Yes it=20 is related. A shared resource link group
identifies shared = resources at=20 some granularity. Fate shared paths have
shared resources at a = very high=20 level of granularity. Disjoint paths
have none or very few shared = resources. For a bidirectional path the
shared fate comes from = the fact=20 that both direction have common
resources and if one fails the = other is=20 likely to=20 = fail.

Regards,
Don


Regards,

Vijay


=


Don't get soaked. Take a=20 quick peak at the forecast
with theYahoo!=20 Search weather shortcut.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C76028.60F99471-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Mar 06 18:36:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOizO-0005YJ-VS for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 18:22:39 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOhcy-0008V3-Jq for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 16:55:26 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOhSm-000MDh-4h for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 21:44:52 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [62.23.212.165] (helo=smail.alcatel.fr) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOhSi-000MDB-Dw; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 21:44:50 +0000 Received: from bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr (bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr [155.132.251.11]) by smail.alcatel.fr (8.13.4/8.13.4/ICT) with ESMTP id l26Lig7b011122; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 22:44:43 +0100 In-Reply-To: <0f3801c75fdf$5ba7fc70$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> To: "Adrian Farrel" Cc: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Don Fedyk" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Pandian, Vijay" Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5 September 26, 2003 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 22:44:40 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on BEMAIL05/BE/ALCATEL(Release 5.0.13aHF163 | June 23, 2005) at 03/06/2007 22:44:35, Serialize complete at 03/06/2007 22:44:35 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 155.132.180.81 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6907f330301e69261fa73bed91449a20 adrian, all the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical bidirectional services" but "Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?" when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it would surprise me that we would provision an LSP per micro-flow across the network (being Ethernet or whatever packet technology), even more, GMPLS is mostly used as an edge-to-edge technology in most cases, GMPLS capable devices do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where mentioning in their examples i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are introducing several specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control plane is not going to elevate those, in part. these constraints are independent whether one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP provisioning capability at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous times but this is one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion) hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing argument in favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning WITHIN a single signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments are boiling down to hypothetical control plane efficiency that can be ensured by other means if we consider the restricting conditions where the proposed approach would be workable -d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 06/03/2007 12:05 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk" cc: Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs additional message exchanges. The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem to be beyond this debate. So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay, let me answer this. If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? Regards, Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. Regards, Don Regards, Vijay From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Mar 06 19:46:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOiyc-0005Tj-3H for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 18:21:50 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOiET-00072r-M1 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:34:15 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOi56-000Ow6-NZ for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 22:24:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [130.76.96.56] (helo=stl-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOi51-000OuO-3g for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 22:24:26 +0000 Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (stl-av-01.boeing.com [192.76.190.6]) by stl-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.13.6/8.13.6/TEST_SMTPIN) with ESMTP id l26MOBq3015196 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Mar 2007 16:24:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.13.6/8.13.6/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l26MOB9F004831; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 16:24:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from XCH-SWBH-04.sw.nos.boeing.com (xch-swbh-04.sw.nos.boeing.com [192.79.11.25]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.13.6/8.13.6/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l26MNwCg004538; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 16:24:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from XCH-SW-42.sw.nos.boeing.com ([192.79.11.43]) by XCH-SWBH-04.sw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:24:07 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:24:06 -0800 Message-ID: <626FC7C6A97381468FB872072AB5DDC8C2E33D@XCH-SW-42.sw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: AcdgOrXzDGo9dUQKSM6uNncoP+RWcQAAk8Cg References: <0f3801c75fdf$5ba7fc70$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> From: "Drake, John E" To: , "Adrian Farrel" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2007 22:24:07.0546 (UTC) FILETIME=[27CEEDA0:01C7603E] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f6ef73100908d67495ce675c3fe8f472 Dimitri, I think you're absolutely right. Furthermore, this application seems to be a natural for LSP hierarchy, where there would be a containing symmetric bi-directional LSP with contained asymmetric uni-directional LSPs. The latter would be correlated with the Association object. This would give you fate sharing and fast recovery via the re-instantiation of the containing LSP, and reasonable control plane performance, since the contained LSP signaling is only between the containing LSP endpoints. Thanks, John=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be=20 > [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:45 PM > To: Adrian Farrel > Cc: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Don Fedyk;=20 > owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Pandian, Vijay > Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions=20 > on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] >=20 > adrian, all >=20 > the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical bidirectional services" > but "Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical=20 > bidirectional LSPs?"=20 >=20 > when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it=20 > would surprise me that we would provision an LSP per=20 > micro-flow across the network (being Ethernet or whatever=20 > packet technology), even more, GMPLS is mostly used as an=20 > edge-to-edge technology in most cases, GMPLS capable devices=20 > do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where=20 > mentioning in their examples >=20 > i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are=20 > introducing several specific (data plane) constraints,=20 > indeed, but the control plane is not going to elevate those,=20 > in part. these constraints are independent whether one has=20 > unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP provisioning=20 > capability at control plane level (adrian pointed this out=20 > numerous times but this is one of the cornerstone of the=20 > whole discussion) >=20 > hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing=20 > argument in favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning=20 > WITHIN a single signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments=20 > are boiling down to hypothetical control plane efficiency=20 > that can be ensured by other means if we consider the=20 > restricting conditions where the proposed approach would be workable=20 >=20 > -d. >=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > "Adrian Farrel" > Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > 06/03/2007 12:05 > Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" > =20 > To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)"=20 > ,=20 > "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk"=20 > > cc: > Subject: What is this fate sharing thing?=20 > [Was: Questions=20 > on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I=20 > am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. >=20 > - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one > direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? >=20 > - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one > direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a > switch-over of the other direction, too? >=20 > - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control > plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control > plane state in the other direction? >=20 > The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional=20 > signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing=20 > automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not=20 > preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs=20 > additional message exchanges. >=20 > The use of an identical path for both directions can provide=20 > some elements=20 >=20 > of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that=20 > it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber=20 > could fail. This issue is not impacted by bidirectional or=20 > associated signaling as the directions can be installed on=20 > the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only=20 > impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. >=20 > End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different=20 > level and seem to be beyond this debate. >=20 >=20 > So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the=20 > discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion=20 > has reduced to: > - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services > - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the > cost of new signaling objects and procedures? >=20 > Adrian >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" > To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20 > > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi Vijay, >=20 > let me answer this. >=20 > If you need different protection for each direction then you=20 > likely will > need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate > sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a > single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different > routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical=20 > bandwidth property > of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. >=20 > Regards, > Attila >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM > To: Don Fedyk > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 >=20 > Don, >=20 > The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one > direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction > probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). >=20 > So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the > forward and reverse direction. Am I right? >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Vijay >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM > To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Questions on > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi Vijay >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Questions on > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I have some basic questions, primarily trying to > understand the scope of this ID as well as the application=20 > behind such a > requirement. >=20 > 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric > Bandwidth requirement? >=20 > The postulation was that GMPLS today supports > bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a > bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical > TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates > setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like > many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an > implementation.) >=20 > So to your question besides bandwidth there is also > underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session=20 > procedures and > support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A > single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable)=20 > LSP. In other > words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed=20 > out this is > also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each > end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will=20 > acknowledge > the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the > technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and > there are efficiencies in a single session of a=20 > bi-directional LSP. On > the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the > asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple > sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D > ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) >=20 > | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP > Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? >=20 > With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow > bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate > RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session=20 > associated > with the primary bidirectional LSP. >=20 > 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make > sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) > and eventually signal them independently as well? >=20 >=20 > Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of > the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & > LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric > path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to > align. >=20 > 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse > flows to be on the same path? >=20 >=20 > That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my > case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data > plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that=20 > both require > bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to > support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and > bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. >=20 > 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this > in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? >=20 >=20 > Yes it is related. A shared resource link group > identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared=20 > paths have > shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths > have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the > shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common > resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. >=20 > Regards, > Don >=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Vijay >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From kereligion@ezincomestreams.com Tue Mar 06 21:37:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOm2H-0006PK-3A for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 21:37:49 -0500 Received: from p2204-adsan10honb5-acca.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp ([218.43.51.204]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOm2F-0002jF-3w for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2007 21:37:48 -0500 Received: from ax335sm160 ([31.48.150.17]) by p2204-adsan10honb5-acca.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp (8.39.9/8.39.9) with SMTP id 38Y0vqySo1GDRU; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:37:47 +0900 Message-ID: <001101c760ad$077d2840$05ad1f84@ax335sm160> From: "Dewayne Ball" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: To of mclean Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:34:18 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C760AD.077D2840" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.2963 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C760AD.077D2840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable YOU'VE SEEN IT BEFORE YOU SAY?.. 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------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C760C1.4A812240-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Wed Mar 07 02:18:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOqPn-00089W-5C for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 02:18:23 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOqPc-0004vQ-Eg for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 02:18:23 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOqDg-0005VM-MD for ccamp-data@psg.com; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 07:05:52 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [217.32.164.151] (helo=smtp4.smtp.bt.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOqDd-0005V0-8V for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 07:05:51 +0000 Received: from i2kc08-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.71]) by smtp4.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 7 Mar 2007 07:05:46 +0000 Received: from i2km99-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.31]) by i2kc08-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 7 Mar 2007 07:05:45 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 07:05:44 -0000 Message-ID: <3C2E60A2B33F124A8A702388733BB60656E3BA@i2km99-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: AcdgOrXzDGo9dUQKSM6uNncoP+RWcQAAk8CgAA/xJ9A= From: To: , , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Mar 2007 07:05:45.0173 (UTC) FILETIME=[06A5D050:01C76087] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3dc828214e948ff35b815af10e94a823 John....tend to agree with these points. The only truly recursive topological construct is p2p.....one can almost consider this as THE topological atomic building block of hierarchy (ie a client/server layer network relationship). This becomes quite evident when we consider the fact that a link connection in layer network N is provided by a trail in layer network N-1...a relationship which is clearly recursive across a stack of nested layer networks. Now a p2mp construct (like a p2p construct) is also a connection (Note - A trail is specific p2p relationship, so in a p2mp connection a trail exists between the root and each leaf). However mp2p and mp2mp constructs are not connections. As previously noted, one can only recursively construct topology with a p2p connection. So if we want to create p2mp connections (and we will) these should only exist at the very top of a network stack in the context of a some service instance, ie we cannot use p2mp connections (and certainly not mp2p and mp2mp constructs) for recursive topology creation. Why is this important?=20 Well, its all about deterministic resource assignment and management....and this plays through to a whole raft of practical considerations (eg OAM/fault management, performance/SLAs, etc) that should be important to operators and their customers (which can be other operators). The key point about a connection is that it must only have a single source and no internal routing once created....this is essentially a definition of a connection, and it comes from information theory considerations of resource determinism. Connections do not (obviously) exist in the cl-ps mode. In the co-cs mode connections can be created using time (eg SDH/PDH), freq (eg WDM) and space (eg per fibre) dimension resource partitions. In the co-ps mode connections can only be practically created by resource partitioning of the time dimension. Note that the key difference between the co-cs and co-ps mode in the time dimension is one of regular or irregular (respectively) partitioning of resource. What this essentially means is that labelling and resource assignment are coupled/fixed processes and always deterministic in the co-cs mode but not in the co-ps mode. This has many immediate practical consequences too, eg one can't create mp2p constructs in the co-cs mode but one can in the co-ps mode. Aside=3D> A practical consideration (but not axiomatic to its = definition) is that once created a connection is only consciously moved by (i) a customer request (most obvious for SVC case), (ii) from failures (eg prot-sw) or (iii) by premeditated planned works. Counter example: If we add nodes/links to a cl-ps mode network than traffic can move at will under the routing rules of the IGP, but this is not true (or should not be true) in co-ps and co-cs mode networks....nothing intrinsically wrong with that, its purely a function of the connection object and how this must be defined wrt BOTH labelling and resource assignment considerations. And a key point to grasp in all this is that the 3 network modes are quite different and it is folly to try and treat them all identically alike. Now, the above was what I was hinting at in my last mail to Igor wrt to the point about the binding of CV OAM messages (forward defect-detection) and BDI OAM messages (backward defect-detection indication) for fault management. It's quite an important point, and its why in a client/server relationship for creating topology we require congruent bidirectional routings of the symmetric atomic p2p connection building block. regards, Neil > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Drake, John E > Sent: 06 March 2007 22:24 > To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; Adrian Farrel > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions=20 > on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] >=20 >=20 > Dimitri, >=20 > I think you're absolutely right. Furthermore, this=20 > application seems to be a natural for LSP hierarchy, where=20 > there would be a containing symmetric bi-directional LSP with=20 > contained asymmetric uni-directional LSPs. The latter would=20 > be correlated with the Association object. >=20 > This would give you fate sharing and fast recovery via the=20 > re-instantiation of the containing LSP, and reasonable=20 > control plane performance, since the contained LSP signaling=20 > is only between the containing LSP endpoints. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > John=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be > > [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be]=20 > > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:45 PM > > To: Adrian Farrel > > Cc: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Don Fedyk;=20 > > owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Pandian, Vijay > > Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions=20 > > on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] > >=20 > > adrian, all > >=20 > > the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical=20 > bidirectional services"=20 > > but "Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional=20 > > LSPs?" > >=20 > > when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it > > would surprise me that we would provision an LSP per=20 > > micro-flow across the network (being Ethernet or whatever=20 > > packet technology), even more, GMPLS is mostly used as an=20 > > edge-to-edge technology in most cases, GMPLS capable devices=20 > > do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where=20 > > mentioning in their examples > >=20 > > i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are > > introducing several specific (data plane) constraints,=20 > > indeed, but the control plane is not going to elevate those,=20 > > in part. these constraints are independent whether one has=20 > > unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP provisioning=20 > > capability at control plane level (adrian pointed this out=20 > > numerous times but this is one of the cornerstone of the=20 > > whole discussion) > >=20 > > hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing > > argument in favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning=20 > > WITHIN a single signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments=20 > > are boiling down to hypothetical control plane efficiency=20 > > that can be ensured by other means if we consider the=20 > > restricting conditions where the proposed approach would be=20 > workable=20 > >=20 > > -d. > >=20 > >=20 > > =20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > "Adrian Farrel" > > Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > > 06/03/2007 12:05 > > Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" > > =20 > > To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)"=20 > > , > > "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk"=20 > > > > cc: > > Subject: What is this fate sharing thing?=20 > > [Was: Questions=20 > > on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] > >=20 > >=20 > > Hi, > >=20 > > There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I > > am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. > >=20 > > - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one > > direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? > >=20 > > - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one > > direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a > > switch-over of the other direction, too? > >=20 > > - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control > > plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control > > plane state in the other direction? > >=20 > > The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional > > signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing=20 > > automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not=20 > > preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs=20 > > additional message exchanges. > >=20 > > The use of an identical path for both directions can provide > > some elements=20 > >=20 > > of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that > > it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber=20 > > could fail. This issue is not impacted by bidirectional or=20 > > associated signaling as the directions can be installed on=20 > > the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only=20 > > impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. > >=20 > > End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different > > level and seem to be beyond this debate. > >=20 > >=20 > > So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the > > discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion=20 > > has reduced to: > > - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services > > - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the > > cost of new signaling objects and procedures? > >=20 > > Adrian > >=20 > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" > > To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk" > > > > Cc: > > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM > > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > >=20 > >=20 > > Hi Vijay, > >=20 > > let me answer this. > >=20 > > If you need different protection for each direction then you > > likely will > > need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate > > sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a > > single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take=20 > different > > routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical=20 > > bandwidth property > > of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. > >=20 > > Regards, > > Attila > >=20 > > ________________________________ > >=20 > > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On=20 > > Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM > > To: Don Fedyk > > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Don, > >=20 > > The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one=20 > > direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction=20 > > probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). > >=20 > > So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for=20 > the forward=20 > > and reverse direction. Am I right? > >=20 > > Regards, > >=20 > > Vijay > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] > > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM > > To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org > > Subject: RE: Questions on > > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > >=20 > >=20 > > Hi Vijay > >=20 > >=20 > > ________________________________ > >=20 > > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On=20 > > Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM > > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > > Subject: Questions on > > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > >=20 > >=20 > > Hi, > >=20 > > I have some basic questions, primarily trying to > > understand the scope of this ID as well as the application > > behind such a > > requirement. > >=20 > > 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric > > Bandwidth requirement? > >=20 > > The postulation was that GMPLS today supports > > bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a=20 > > bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this=20 > is Optical=20 > > TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates=20 > > setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric=20 > LSP. (Like=20 > > many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an > > implementation.) > >=20 > > So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying=20 > > requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and > > support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does=20 > today. A > > single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable)=20 > > LSP. In other > > words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed=20 > > out this is > > also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions=20 > (one at each > > end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will=20 > > acknowledge > > the authors had a single session in mind more as a=20 > requirement of the > > technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional=20 > symmetric and > > there are efficiencies in a single session of a=20 > > bi-directional LSP. On > > the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the > > asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple > > sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D > > ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) > >=20 > > | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP > > Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? > >=20 > > With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow > > bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate=20 > > RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session=20 > > associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. > >=20 > > 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make > > sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation=20 > at each end)=20 > > and eventually signal them independently as well? > >=20 > >=20 > > Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of > > the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE=20 > session &=20 > > LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional=20 > symmetric=20 > > path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to=20 > > align. > >=20 > > 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse > > flows to be on the same path? > >=20 > >=20 > > That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my > > case this is where the requirement comes from. There is=20 > Ethernet data=20 > > plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both=20 > > require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is=20 > to be able=20 > > to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace=20 > functions and > > bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. > >=20 > > 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this > > in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? > >=20 > >=20 > > Yes it is related. A shared resource link group > > identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared > > paths have > > shared resources at a very high level of granularity. =20 > Disjoint paths > > have none or very few shared resources. For a=20 > bidirectional path the > > shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common > > resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. > >=20 > > Regards, > > Don > >=20 > >=20 > > Regards, > >=20 > > Vijay > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 From hbbn@satie.inria.fr Wed Mar 07 02:24:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOqVj-0007B8-92 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 02:24:31 -0500 Received: from [202.137.126.4] (helo=imzcd) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOqVc-0006a3-8a for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 02:24:31 -0500 Received: from zicc ([39.103.35.159]) by imzcd (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id l277RTtD037999; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 23:27:29 -0800 Message-ID: <001501c76089$986a7c50$9f236727@zicc> From: "Net Avila" To: Subject: iwaneisingHow performant is the generated code? Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 23:16:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C76046.8A3B0750" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: ebd5ffc455fd7bcccba963126e1cf1f5 ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C76046.8A3B0750 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0012_01C76046.8A3E1490" ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C76046.8A3E1490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable GUI Builder for Mobile ApplicationsUse the Visual Mobile Designer for = rapid development and prototyping: Dragand drop wait screens, tables, = and splash screens to the canvas. 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host85-67-static.106-82-b.business.telecomitalia.it ([82.106.67.85]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOwid-0001vC-T6 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 09:02:23 -0500 Message-ID: <000901c760c1$cf86efb0$00000000@MAGDA> From: "bottles started" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: Famousba bes butt Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 15:06:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C760CA.314B57B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.3 (++) X-Scan-Signature: b84f8c8fba0e1389e5eb998b64078964 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C760CA.314B57B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0006_01C760CA.314B57B0" ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C760CA.314B57B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Grow theirs couples, lifes, trials! Gaygeorge, riverageri girlsgreen = dayguess lightgwen berryharry weekheath! Frolic detour, gage bryan gates? Loftus, yvette lowe lubarsky. Hair ditsy hit screen, whalberg jim carreys, hope? Una sobre pelicula = read rest this entry. Frequent penciler curt swan, pairs artwork. Ved fileplanet gamers ign. Saysshe impossible mattertue saysjolie = tertium quid mon lionel. Detail involved readme, medium indoor release = dezember filename, author? Disclaimer advertise starseeker technorati editor, logo, matt lum = killer. Light phat skinned tops braless, fan fiction contest. Challenges raise = thorne step direction quotthis firm leading, effort. Facts group drunk pee peeing clips milf dating fact. Potential fodder, twil endeavors peoples academic. Lawrence lessig tom mayo? Mere puts gmail keysome themes stand mass. Everyone lot advice, upload, yourself. Holzer homann axel horns noel humphreys. Girlfriend candyman lyricswill = am, spendin mine spanish youre. Weird ben wickert mason. Cards, sat = herself down. Ambrosio pageant jolie pamela aishwarya rai johansson, method overcome. = Gleason glorfindel joe gratz grimmelman gutman. Gtgt christina = connection body about amazing. Chicks dig, leg beyonce, drinker slap southeast recipe, tennis. Advocaten sophorist katie stahl starkoff statutory zone. Rehabfiled drugs, wacky trueher final moments checked second, time. Salazar santagati sapere aude sarah schecket schnabel schteino. Drop knees minutehe blowing? Changing provokes fit jumping narration. Gone wild laquo canned tuna? Ia inns court insomniac overdrive jdr! Install shockwave also sure = settings allow content close. Sad source tells looked really needed. Older younger latina fisting = seymore butts. Drugfueled breakdown best ever happened reversal. Monkstacy reidtyra = ford pleberias jennifer. Mosskate paveskevin zegerskid rockkiefer = basslara, flynn, kimlily lohanlisa kudrowlisa. Sedarisamy, cooperandy = dickandy nicole smithanne rosebaby blabberbad? ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C760CA.314B57B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Grow theirs couples, lifes, trials! = Gaygeorge,=20 riverageri girlsgreen dayguess lightgwen berryharry = weekheath!
Frolic detour, gage bryan gates? = Loftus, yvette=20 lowe lubarsky.
Hair ditsy hit screen, whalberg jim = carreys, hope?=20 Una sobre pelicula read rest this entry.
Frequent penciler curt swan, pairs = artwork.
Ved fileplanet gamers ign. Saysshe = impossible=20 mattertue saysjolie tertium quid mon lionel. Detail involved readme, = medium=20 indoor release dezember filename, author?
Disclaimer advertise starseeker = technorati editor,=20 logo, matt lum killer.
Light phat skinned tops braless, fan = fiction=20 contest. Challenges raise thorne step direction quotthis firm leading, = effort.
Facts group drunk pee peeing clips milf = dating fact.
Potential fodder, twil endeavors = peoples academic.
Lawrence lessig tom mayo? Mere puts = gmail keysome=20 themes stand mass.
Everyone lot advice, upload, = yourself.
Holzer homann axel horns noel = humphreys. Girlfriend=20 candyman lyricswill am, spendin mine spanish youre. Weird ben wickert = mason.=20 Cards, sat herself down.
Ambrosio pageant jolie pamela aishwarya = rai=20 johansson, method overcome. Gleason glorfindel joe gratz grimmelman = gutman. Gtgt=20 christina connection body about amazing.
Chicks dig, leg beyonce, drinker slap = southeast=20 recipe, tennis.
Advocaten sophorist katie stahl = starkoff statutory zone.
Rehabfiled drugs, wacky trueher final = moments=20 checked second, time.
Salazar santagati sapere aude sarah = schecket=20 schnabel schteino.
Drop knees minutehe blowing? Changing = provokes fit=20 jumping narration.
Gone wild laquo canned = tuna?
Ia inns court insomniac overdrive jdr! = Install=20 shockwave also sure settings allow content close.
Sad source tells looked really needed. = Older=20 younger latina fisting seymore butts.
Drugfueled breakdown best ever happened = reversal.=20 Monkstacy reidtyra ford pleberias jennifer. Mosskate paveskevin = zegerskid=20 rockkiefer basslara, flynn, kimlily lohanlisa kudrowlisa. Sedarisamy, = cooperandy=20 dickandy nicole smithanne rosebaby blabberbad?
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7vqu8Bqv8jqv9Nqgw4EfugEgBvIia9GvnlElwyEo/zo2MFKm/WqiafKrOjIoBruwgoKwZ/MZR1IX lREm+zodDIuvDVuwEYuxV2EYH5sjFOuvHguxGgs2GpuyIEuxfuKwDquyjgGxZQOzI9uw+v96F/+q GDk7sRu7s2FDswersi0bsy+LsVsis2QDtC4Ls0PbH0UbsjZ7sl+jtERLs00LJTzrsj2bNhJrsyZL HXtysDELtIXCtQVLtmdLomJrokqrJ2tzrwObrwK7sg9LtGPrsxJrGTlbr3zbt377t4AbuII7uIRb uIZ7uIibuIq7uIzbuI77uJAbuZI7uZRbuZZ7uZibuZq7uZzbuZ77uaAbuqI7uqRbuqZ7uqibuqq7 uqzbuq77urAbu7I7u7Rbu7Z7u7ibu7q7u7zbu777u8AbvMI7vMRbvMZ7vMibvMq7vMzbvM77vNAb vdI7vdRbvdZ7vdibvdq7vdzbvd77veAFG76oEhAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C760CA.314B57B0-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Wed Mar 07 09:48:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOxRV-0007EL-8w for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 09:48:37 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOxRQ-0003Kn-7N for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 09:48:37 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOxDy-000MeN-96 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:34:38 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE,HTML_NONELEMENT_40_50 autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [209.191.85.58] (helo=web36807.mail.mud.yahoo.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOxDf-000Mcy-JP for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:34:26 +0000 Received: (qmail 50874 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Mar 2007 14:34:18 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=sxAsnJPxy/+rLw4NhUjpKWfcFY6Q1XRBACHcQTFTuhcnXokcNJmua+RHo5UeEC16RZQhkoH3i0Na8glB1cosocVTTuS9rNC2cgNgXX0DDA+Ju651k2JpWWWeRlTRQUmx/3yvB9Rha+xDKBiABVPcHeyO1myAy49S2RNEzJrwyoc= ; Message-ID: <20070307143418.50872.qmail@web36807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: dI2EawUVM1kxGQj9FWv0cDT8gQG_wIMc1ICatHBLZZWv1xY1eI.Ef.wcwrViFn7iCLZ1PYJChxkiN8LhGtu41N0TSa7820aQqQAmze4xgpprKMCP347R31FSByMWjpsezpeudFhK0KvA9RMg6aMF1g-- Received: from [67.102.145.11] by web36807.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 06:34:18 PST Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:34:18 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be, Adrian Farrel Cc: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Pandian, Vijay" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1027318012-1173278058=:50727" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 025f8c5000216988bfe31585db759250 --0-1027318012-1173278058=:50727 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri. See in-line. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: adrian, all the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical bidirectional services" but "Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?" when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it would surprise me that we would provision an LSP per micro-flow across the network (being Ethernet or whatever packet technology), even more, GMPLS is mostly used as an edge-to-edge technology in most cases, GMPLS capable devices do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where mentioning in their examples i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are introducing several specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control plane is not going to elevate those, in part. these constraints are independent whether one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP provisioning capability at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous times but this is one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion) hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing argument in favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning WITHIN a single signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments are boiling down to hypothetical control plane efficiency that can be ensured by other means if we consider the restricting conditions where the proposed approach would be workable IB>> What Neil and Don are saying is that some signifficant Ethernet functionality will be lost if an Ethernet bi-directional service is mapped on non-congruent paths. This exactly coincides with what I hear from our local Ethernet experts. Hence, if we are to support Ethernet layer by GMPLS, we must consider mapping them on single bi-directional LSPs. This is not "hypothetical control plane efficiency" discussion. Bi-directional LSPs are as important in Ethernet as in TDM or optical layers. But I do agree with you that so far there were no convincing examples presented just yet that illustrate the need of bandwidth asymetrical services. Igor -d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 06/03/2007 12:05 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk" cc: Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs additional message exchanges. The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem to be beyond this debate. So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay, let me answer this. If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? Regards, Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. Regards, Don Regards, Vijay --------------------------------- 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. --0-1027318012-1173278058=:50727 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri.

See in-line.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
adrian, all

the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical bidirectional services"
but "Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?"

when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it would
surprise me that we would provision an LSP per micro-flow across the
network (being Ethernet or whatever packet technology), even more, GMPLS
is mostly used as an edge-to-edge technology in most cases, GMPLS capable
devices do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where
mentioning in their examples

i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are introducing several
specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control plane is not
going to elevate those, in part. these constraints are independent whether
one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP provisioning capability
at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous times but this is
one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion)

hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing argument in
favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning WITHIN a single
signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments are boiling down to
hypothetical control plane efficiency that can be ensured by other means
if we consider the restricting conditions where the proposed approach
would be workable


IB>> What Neil and Don are saying is that some signifficant Ethernet functionality will be lost if an Ethernet bi-directional service is mapped on non-congruent paths. This exactly coincides with what I hear from our local Ethernet experts. Hence, if we are to support Ethernet layer by GMPLS, we must consider mapping them on single bi-directional LSPs. This is not "hypothetical control plane efficiency" discussion. Bi-directional LSPs are as important in Ethernet as in TDM or optical layers. But I do agree with you that so far there were no convincing examples presented just yet that illustrate the need of bandwidth asymetrical services.

Igor

-d.








"Adrian Farrel"
Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
06/03/2007 12:05
Please respond to "Adrian Farrel"

To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" ,
"Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk"

cc:
Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions
on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt]


Hi,

There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure
what problem we are trying to solve.

- Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one
direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions?

- Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one
direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a
switch-over of the other direction, too?

- Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control
plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control
plane state in the other direction?

The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling)
obviously
makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated
signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs
additional message exchanges.

The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements

of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not
guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue
is
not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions
can
be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might
only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling.

End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and
seem
to be beyond this debate.


So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of
asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to:
- We need asymmetrical bidirectional services
- Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the
cost of new signaling objects and procedures?

Adrian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"
To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"

Cc:
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi Vijay,

let me answer this.

If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will
need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate
sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a
single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different
routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property
of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471.

Regards,
Attila

________________________________

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM
To: Don Fedyk
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt



Don,

The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one
direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction
probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing).

So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the
forward and reverse direction. Am I right?

Regards,

Vijay



-----Original Message-----
From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM
To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on
draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi Vijay


________________________________

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
[mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM
To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions on
draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi,

I have some basic questions, primarily trying to
understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a
requirement.

1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric
Bandwidth requirement?

The postulation was that GMPLS today supports
bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a
bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical
TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates
setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like
many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an
implementation.)

So to your question besides bandwidth there is also
underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and
support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A
single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other
words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is
also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each
end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge
the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the
technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and
there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On
the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the
asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple
sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D
ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)

| 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP
Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes?

With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow
bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate
RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated
with the primary bidirectional LSP.

3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make
sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end)
and eventually signal them independently as well?


Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of
the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session &
LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric
path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to
align.

4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse
flows to be on the same path?


That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my
case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data
plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require
bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to
support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and
bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required.

5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this
in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?


Yes it is related. A shared resource link group
identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have
shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths
have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the
shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common
resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail.

Regards,
Don


Regards,

Vijay








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From kernellavishness@cymru.com Wed Mar 07 10:57:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOyW2-0000iL-Ol for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 10:57:22 -0500 Received: from [88.226.217.101] (helo=dsl88-226-55653.ttnet.net.tr) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOyVF-0004QL-AX for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 10:57:22 -0500 Received: from 216.90.108.7 (HELO noquar.as23028.net) by mail.cymru.com with (7.91.8/7.70.3) ESMTP id dh0duqel4iswpid for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 15:56:31 -0120 From: "Deirdre Ernster" To: Subject: Urgent mail from Deirdre Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 15:56:31 -0120 Message-ID: <01c760d1$2c4e0350$6c822ecf@kernellavishness> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Thread-Index: Aca8Qwjdktv7kypu6t9vzel1abkj2nm== X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Urge nt buy alert!! Urgent News alert!!! Stock Symbol ACEN Price 0.65 5 day tar get $3.00 Investors, once again we bring you today’s big ideas for huge profits, BUY ACEN it's going to soar 500% or more from its current trading levels. ACEN is near an explosive breakout and we hear major European and U.S. promotional exposure on ACEN is coming, ACEN’s revolutionary battery technology, never needs to be charged!! When Wall Street finds out about this undiscovered company the price will soar!! CHeck ACEN news and grab some now.. ACEN is going to soar, and when it does were looking for 5x our money on this one. Buy ACEN now before it's to late... They are not fixing the major problem which appears to be their software people. There you want to catch your defects before they go into the field. I realize he doesn't write the software. Especially if the tune is repetitive as is the case with. > Multiple, multiple upgrades that don't do anything. > Why? Why I ask? Do you ask why? There you want to catch your defects before they go into the field. > Let me give you a little advice about running your site. From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Wed Mar 07 10:58:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOyX3-0001Ul-5U for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 10:58:25 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOyWd-0005T7-2v for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 10:58:25 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOyPI-0006Pl-5N for ccamp-data@psg.com; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 15:50:24 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO,MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [156.154.16.138] (helo=ns1.neustar.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOyP1-0006KJ-0B for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 15:50:10 +0000 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns1.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1238B26EE2; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 15:50:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HOyOw-0006U6-IE; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 10:50:02 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt Message-Id: Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 10:50:02 -0500 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 32b73d73e8047ed17386f9799119ce43 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : Graceful Shutdown in GMPLS Traffic Engineering Networks Author(s) : Z. Ali, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2007-3-7 GMPLS-TE Graceful shutdown is a method for explicitly notifying the nodes in a Traffic Engineering (TE) enabled network that the TE capability on a link or on an entire Label Switching Router (LSR) is going to be disabled. GMPLS-TE graceful shutdown mechanisms are tailored towards addressing the planned outage in the network. This document provides requirements and protocol mechanisms so as to reduce/eliminate traffic disruption in the event of a planned shutdown of a network resource. These operations are equally applicable for both MPLS and its GMPLS extensions. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-7092307.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-7092307.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Wed Mar 07 11:44:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOzFd-0004IA-Sv for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:44:29 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOzFb-0006s7-Fo for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:44:29 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOz8c-000Ce9-7K for ccamp-data@psg.com; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 16:37:14 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [63.118.34.24] (helo=ripley.ciena.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HOz8K-000CYT-7E for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 16:37:06 +0000 Received: from lin1-118-39-27.ciena.com (HELO mdmxm02.ciena.com) ([63.118.39.27]) by ripley.ciena.com with ESMTP; 07 Mar 2007 11:36:55 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:35:41 -0500 Message-ID: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07014C2F6C@mdmxm02.ciena.com> In-Reply-To: <0ea701c75f80$81b872f0$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New communication from the OIF thread-index: AcdfgSy3iro7QChERHuia03wJ72qIAA9iLAg References: <7DBAFEC6A76F3E42817DF1EBE64CB026045B65FC@FTRDMEL2.rd.francetelecom.fr> <0ea701c75f80$81b872f0$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> From: "Ong, Lyndon" To: "Adrian Farrel" , "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" , Cc: Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 86f85b2f88b0d50615aed44a7f9e33c7 Hi Adrian, I'm not the expert on this, but I think there may be two models at work here: - in one model, several originators request resource reservation for their Ethernet flows=20 based on the associated Ethernet labels, each with some associated bandwidth. The receiving=20 node creates a corresponding tunnel and aggregates these flows into the tunnel. - in the second model (which I believe to be the MEF EVC model, although we're checking with our MEF 'experts' on this), the originator requests an EVC service, which has an=20 associated bandwidth from one edge of the network to another, and can support within it several Ethernet flows that share this bandwidth. If there are multiple EVCs, the=20 originator uses signaling to identify which labels should be carried in EVCx and which should be carried in EVCy - if EVCx carries 200 Ethernet flows, then you would need to identify 200 labels as belonging to EVCx. However there is one transport requirement for the EVC, not one for each flow. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:46 PM To: MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: New communication from the OIF Julien, Dimitry, I, too, read these examples as a desire to perform aggregation of multiple Ethernet flows into a single managed flow. My question is, what is wrong with a tunnel construct? Such a construction, like the label stack in MPLS, is easily available in Ethernet. Is there a specific reason why the end-to-end labels must be visible in the data plane in the core of the network? In this sense, the request for a concatenation of labels is simply so that multiple labels can be treated in the same way, not (unlike the TDM case) in order to construct some for of virtual concatenation. If it were the case that each Ethernet label had a limited amount of bandwidth associated and it was necessary to clump labels to make a bigger unit of bandwidth, the case would be different, but that does not apply to Ethernet AFAIK. So, still struggling to understand the underlying requirement. Perhaps it is "simply" the desire to exchange only one Path message between source and destination when multiple LSPs are formed between the same pair of end-points. One might argue the same case in L3VPN deployments. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" To: ; Cc: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: cc: Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian =3D=3D=3D=3D February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard, dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling messages for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair From uahyw@deu.standox.com Wed Mar 07 11:53:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOzNy-000209-LJ for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:53:06 -0500 Received: from adsl18-182.qualitynet.net ([62.150.108.182]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HOzMz-0007ps-Uu for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:52:58 -0500 Received: (qmail 27416 invoked from network); Wed, 7 Mar 2007 08:51:17 -0800 Received: from unknown (HELO mmftu) (197.159.80.160) by adsl18-182.qualitynet.net with SMTP; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 08:51:17 -0800 Message-ID: <45EEED85.3040002@deu.standox.com> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 08:51:17 -0800 From: well-off User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: The musical was this time called "Fairy Tale in the Back Yard". Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------080400050708020509070307" X-Spam-Score: 3.2 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: d424907374faffed8e9e11e94f671eb2 --------------080400050708020509070307 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit polyester
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A woman is offered a blanket.
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GoingForth by Day lasted for half an hour. Emotionalbombardment probably.
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I went to to the information desk and introduced myself:I have an appointment - I want to talk to the Communication Manager. Additional merchandise products are easily made available upon request. Watching 5 deep Bill video films in one time is a tremendous challenge.
SuddenlyI am indeed not in the middle of nowhere.
He became so happy that he instantly made 8 more motifs inspired by Hans Christian Andersen fairy tales for the City Director. This competition seeks to attractartists, galleries, museums who are redefining standards of artexcellence challenging existing trends and tendencies in art andculture. Amazing how Frank Lloyd Wright's architecture is contemporary. and they lived happily ever after. The City Director, the Minister of Tourism and the Director of the Hans Christian Andersen Festival Plays waited for him.
Bill is not the most successful police drama on British television.
Giotto's has been of great inspiration to Bill,too. He studied at the College of Visual and Performing Arts of Syracuse University, Syracuse, New York, graduating with a B. I can't say somuch about these 5 works.
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Stereo sounds from the 5 video films. People arepassing by.
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PtHGfNyJ2+HZitTP+aUEnGGvqu61Go5lLeRN/OZL7dvavNhXvg3q9cxg7aAzDLWsyvD8vvO7LtKK rtoojpkJDltaT6HLKfYqDd96zNMzH/MTPrtRrewVb+eiicHM/A0hXvQmTgdZbtOp+/Mmz74kzOhC b9e9Td5jqVn6etPaoNvzrvOGvz3W+80ZM5n2/ACfedreS5/rDpFZ4hjpAbzxS72ysNmv5V7z4Sjx eJC+0675MBHcSgHhCckK8U5QFK+dXBAEADs= --------------080400050708020509070307-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Wed Mar 07 12:53:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP0Ko-000315-FT for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 12:53:54 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP0Kn-0005EJ-2y for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 12:53:54 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HP0BN-000LIm-8e for ccamp-data@psg.com; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:44:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [47.140.192.56] (helo=zrtps0kp.nortel.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HP0BF-000LDM-2m; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:44:03 +0000 Received: from zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com (zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com [47.140.202.51]) by zrtps0kp.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l27HhoL07817; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:43:50 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:43:49 -0500 Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DF212AC@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: AcdgOKamNpQzXbsWS/WkAJ3lHwtNaQAAJ0NQ References: <0f3801c75fdf$5ba7fc70$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> From: "Don Fedyk" To: , "Adrian Farrel" Cc: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , , , "Pandian, Vijay" Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8de5f93cb2b4e3bee75302e9eacc33db Hi Dimitri=20 Inline [DF] > -----Original Message----- > From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be=20 >=20 > adrian, all >=20 > the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical bidirectional services" > but "Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical=20 > bidirectional LSPs?"=20 [DF] I agree.=20 >=20 > when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it would=20 > surprise me that we would provision an LSP per micro-flow across the=20 > network (being Ethernet or whatever packet technology), even=20 > more, GMPLS=20 > is mostly used as an edge-to-edge technology in most cases,=20 > GMPLS capable=20 > devices do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where=20 > mentioning in their examples [DF] Two points. The GMPLS for Ethernet Provider Backbone Bridges-TE is hardly a micro flow but you are correct that at high bandwidth levels it would likely be symmetric BW.=20 >=20 > i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are=20 > introducing several=20 > specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control=20 > plane is not=20 > going to elevate those, in part. these constraints are=20 > independent whether=20 > one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP=20 > provisioning capability=20 > at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous=20 > times but this is=20 > one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion) [DF] Sorry I'm missing your point here.=20 >=20 > hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing=20 > argument in=20 > favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning WITHIN a single=20 > signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments are boiling down to=20 > hypothetical control plane efficiency that can be ensured by=20 > other means=20 > if we consider the restricting conditions where the proposed approach=20 > would be workable=20 [DF] I don't agree on the efficiency point. By any measure of efficiency a single RSVP-TE session that handles both directions and possibly different bandwidths is better that 2 that do 1/2 the job each. If bandwidth is the same, in each direction today we don't need an extension. Igor gave a nice summary. =20 BTW I do believe that there will be an association object to correlate at the very least primary and back-up bi-directional LSP. I agree an association object can manage 2 RSVP-TE uni-directional sessions for a full bi-directional connection, and while there is some merit to not extending current BW semantics there are also a set of new correlation rules that have not been implemented.=20 So if we enumerate the GMPLS LSP building block possibilities I see:=20 Unidirectional LSP with BW (supported today by existing procedures) - 1 RSVP-TE session=20 Symmetric BW bi-directional LSP (supported today by existing procedures) - 1 RSVP-TE session can be used by existing GMPLS=20 Asymmetric BW bi-directional LSP (not yet defined). - 2 Unidirectional LSPs with BW + an association object need to be used plus a set of extensions to path correlation=20 OR=20 - 1 Symmetric BW bi-directional LSP can be used and no BW objects (many MPLS TE sessions have no real BW in the control plane) OR - 1 Symmetric BW bi-directional LSP a bi-directional BW object.=20 Regards, Don=20 >=20 > -d. >=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 =20 From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Wed Mar 07 18:34:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP54t-0006VI-7J for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:57:47 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP3Ra-0004Yv-VM for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 16:13:31 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HP35O-000GPT-3Y for ccamp-data@psg.com; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 20:50:10 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO,MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [156.154.16.138] (helo=ns1.neustar.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HP35L-000GNE-Ks for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 20:50:08 +0000 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns1.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63E0126EDD; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 20:50:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HP35I-00033Z-8O; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 15:50:04 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt Message-Id: Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 15:50:04 -0500 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : Traffic Engineering Database Management Information Base in support of GMPLS Author(s) : T. Nadeau, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt Pages : 23 Date : 2007-3-7 This memo defines the Management Information Base (MIB) objects in order to manage traffic engineering database (TED) information with extension in support of Multi-protocol label switching (MPLS) as well as Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) for use with network management protocols. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-7145541.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-7145541.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Wed Mar 07 18:39:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP5jA-0007Bc-Es for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 18:39:24 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP5il-0001Yi-HA for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 18:39:24 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HP5bc-0003f7-6X for ccamp-data@psg.com; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 23:31:36 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [63.118.34.22] (helo=hicks.ciena.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HP5bY-0003eo-Si for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 23:31:34 +0000 Received: from lin1-118-39-27.ciena.com (HELO mdmxm02.ciena.com) ([63.118.39.27]) by hicks.ciena.com with ESMTP; 07 Mar 2007 18:31:21 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:28:50 -0500 Message-ID: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07014C308E@mdmxm02.ciena.com> In-Reply-To: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DC3FE4C@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New communication from the OIF thread-index: AcdfgSy3iro7QChERHuia03wJ72qIAA9iLAgACDGFbAABHKngA== References: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07014C2F6C@mdmxm02.ciena.com> <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DC3FE4C@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> From: "Ong, Lyndon" To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" , "Adrian Farrel" , "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" , Cc: Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8068004c042dabd7f1301bcc80e039df Hi Deborah, That's great that you talked to your MEF reps, I think it confirms my previous email: - there are, as you say, several models allowed in the MEF spec. One model does allow bundling of many (possibly hundreds or thousands) of VIDs in one EVC, which=20 causes a problem if you are=20 attempting to control the EVC with an RSVP session. The original liaison was not intended, I think, to restrict the models supported, but to identify a case=20 where it was not clear how you would do the signaling, where the case was of particular interest to some of the carrier members of OIF. - perhaps multiple messages could be a solution. If so, it would be helpful to=20 understand how this would work - any solutions coming out of CCAMP would be very welcome. =20 - not sure if there is an issue on point-to-multipoint, we were just trying to=20 address one issue at a time, I think. Now that we hopefully have a better understanding of the underlying motivations, hopefully we can make some further progress on a solution :o) Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS [mailto:dbrungard@att.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 2:28 PM To: Ong, Lyndon; Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Lyndon, I checked here among MEF reps and there are several models: bandwidth profile per ingress UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC for a UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC+CE-VLAN CoS tuple. Both untagged and tagged frames can be supported per EVC. As different bandwidth profiles could apply for each of the UNIs in an EVC, the bandwidth profile is not specified on an EVC basis, but as a UNI service attribute. Multiple EVCs can be supported at a UNI. And a mix of UNIs with different (physical/service) characteristics for a EVC is allowed. [MEF10] A new egress profile was added [MEF 10.1]. MEF's EVC, if point-to-point, associates two UNI, or it may be multi-point (multiple UNIs). And depending if CE-VLAN preservation is used, the CE-VLAN ID values may only be significant at a given UNI. The OIF liaison noted OIF was only considering point-to-point, though I am wondering why? MEF is considering both pt-to-pt and multi-point EVCs. As I mentioned at the last IETF meeting, it is difficult to understand the requirement to (one-time) signal a list of VIDs without understanding the requirements behind it. I can understand that an EVC may support (possibly;-)) 500 VIDS when bundling. I am not sure this infers one signaling message per EVC. Service multiplexing, multi-point, all will have different needs. We may want to consider other alternatives (l1vpn, call,..) to be able to support the wider MEF service scope than optimizing for one specific service attribute. Deborah -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ong, Lyndon Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 11:36 AM To: Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Adrian, I'm not the expert on this, but I think there may be two models at work here: - in one model, several originators request resource reservation for their Ethernet flows based on the associated Ethernet labels, each with some associated bandwidth. The receiving node creates a corresponding tunnel and aggregates these flows into the tunnel. - in the second model (which I believe to be the MEF EVC model, although we're checking with our MEF 'experts' on this), the originator requests an EVC service, which has an associated bandwidth from one edge of the network to another, and can support within it several Ethernet flows that share this bandwidth. If there are multiple EVCs, the originator uses signaling to identify which labels should be carried in EVCx and which should be carried in EVCy - if EVCx carries 200 Ethernet flows, then you would need to identify 200 labels as belonging to EVCx. However there is one transport requirement for the EVC, not one for each flow. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:46 PM To: MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: New communication from the OIF Julien, Dimitry, I, too, read these examples as a desire to perform aggregation of multiple Ethernet flows into a single managed flow. My question is, what is wrong with a tunnel construct? Such a construction, like the label stack in MPLS, is easily available in Ethernet. Is there a specific reason why the end-to-end labels must be visible in the data plane in the core of the network? In this sense, the request for a concatenation of labels is simply so that multiple labels can be treated in the same way, not (unlike the TDM case) in order to construct some for of virtual concatenation. If it were the case that each Ethernet label had a limited amount of bandwidth associated and it was necessary to clump labels to make a bigger unit of bandwidth, the case would be different, but that does not apply to Ethernet AFAIK. So, still struggling to understand the underlying requirement. Perhaps it is "simply" the desire to exchange only one Path message between source and destination when multiple LSPs are formed between the same pair of end-points. One might argue the same case in L3VPN deployments. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" To: ; Cc: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: cc: Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian =3D=3D=3D=3D February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard, dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling messages for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Wed Mar 07 19:34:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP6aW-0006GA-6e for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 19:34:32 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP6aU-00039a-N1 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 19:34:32 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HP6UV-0009N2-GX for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 00:28:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [62.23.212.165] (helo=smail.alcatel.fr) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HP6UT-0009MG-LP; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 00:28:18 +0000 Received: from bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr (bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr [155.132.251.11]) by smail.alcatel.fr (8.13.4/8.13.4/ICT) with ESMTP id l280SDf3025943; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 01:28:13 +0100 In-Reply-To: To: "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" Cc: "Adrian Farrel" , "Anca Zamfir \(ancaz\)" , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Jean Philippe Vasseur \(jvasseur\)" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Next steps for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5 September 26, 2003 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 01:28:05 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on BEMAIL05/BE/ALCATEL(Release 5.0.13aHF163 | June 23, 2005) at 03/08/2007 01:28:05, Serialize complete at 03/08/2007 01:28:05 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 155.132.180.81 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca zafar - o) would it be possible to sum'up changes you have been provided since so far ? o) would it be possible to clarify the following statement "- Graceful shutdown mechanisms are required to address TE LSPs spanning multiple domains, as well as intra domain TE LSPs. " afaik you don't shutdown LSPs but Links - right ? thanks, -d. "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 02/03/2007 00:41 To: "Adrian Farrel" , "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: , "Jean Philippe Vasseur \(jvasseur\)" , "Anca Zamfir \(ancaz\)" Subject: Next steps for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... Hi Adrian, Deborah, Dimitri, and campers- As we mentioned at the last IETF meeting, http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06nov/slides/ccamp-17/sld1.htm, we have addressed all outstanding comments, except the following comment from Dimitri, related to this ID. Should you have any further comment, please share. The only remaining comment that is not closed is "should this ID be informational or standard track". IMO the ID defines a new error-subcode and some specific behavior, and should be standard track. Can you please comment on this. The ID has been stable for quite some time and following the closure of the above, we would like to request last call. Thanks Regards... Zafar From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Wed Mar 07 19:35:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP6b1-0006MJ-Cm for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 19:35:03 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP6az-0003Bf-L6 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 19:35:03 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HP6T7-0009Dj-Qo for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 00:26:53 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [62.23.212.165] (helo=smail.alcatel.fr) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HP6T4-0009D1-8s; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 00:26:51 +0000 Received: from bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr (bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr [155.132.251.11]) by smail.alcatel.fr (8.13.4/8.13.4/ICT) with ESMTP id l280QeWx025773; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 01:26:40 +0100 In-Reply-To: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07014C308E@mdmxm02.ciena.com> To: "Ong, Lyndon" Cc: "Adrian Farrel" , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" , "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5 September 26, 2003 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 01:26:33 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on BEMAIL05/BE/ALCATEL(Release 5.0.13aHF163 | June 23, 2005) at 03/08/2007 01:26:33, Serialize complete at 03/08/2007 01:26:33 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 155.132.180.81 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fcb459c204557d9509ce9c1b55d771f1 lyndon o) first you will observe that the doc. MEF traffic parameters does not speak about "label distribution" reason: you will observe (by section 3.4 of RFC 3209) that label per sender (shared reservation or not) and label per link reservation (de-facto shared) are possible hence the usage of RSVP-TE traffic parameters result also in using these rules (i will add a statement to make this clearer in the next release) but remember the doc does not define any "label" format for MEF purposes o) second you will observe that the document does not infer any "VID" to EVC relationship, noticing that single CoS and multiple CoS per EVC are covered in the draft, and this, independently of the number of VIDs per EVC o) third closing the loop, the draft is not inferring any "label" to "VID" relationship (that relationship when equating an EVC with single or multiple CoS to an RSVP session is straightforward) the questions are thus the following 1. to which entity the traffic parameters are applied in case of a single EVC with multiple VIDs ? if you are following the reasoning since so far it should be per EVC (for the set of VIDs) note: per EVC+VID taken individually requires separate signaling otherwise you need a list of tspecs and a list of label + correspondance and this is another protocol, in fact boiling down to a simple relationship 2. what is the "label" value(s) in this case ? using the set of VIDs to represent a "reservation" at the control plane level is completely useless as the control plane doesn't need this info to create PSB/RSB and the entity to which the reservation is associated is the "EVC" ... so you will need to find a unique per-EVC characteristic when the 1:1 relationship between label and EVC is limitative e.g. a bundle index or so (something that boils you down to a 1:1 relationship because indepedently of the "protocol" being explicit in the enumeration IS cumbersome) thanks, -d. "Ong, Lyndon" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 08/03/2007 00:28 To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" , "Adrian Farrel" , "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Deborah, That's great that you talked to your MEF reps, I think it confirms my previous email: - there are, as you say, several models allowed in the MEF spec. One model does allow bundling of many (possibly hundreds or thousands) of VIDs in one EVC, which causes a problem if you are attempting to control the EVC with an RSVP session. The original liaison was not intended, I think, to restrict the models supported, but to identify a case where it was not clear how you would do the signaling, where the case was of particular interest to some of the carrier members of OIF. - perhaps multiple messages could be a solution. If so, it would be helpful to understand how this would work - any solutions coming out of CCAMP would be very welcome. - not sure if there is an issue on point-to-multipoint, we were just trying to address one issue at a time, I think. Now that we hopefully have a better understanding of the underlying motivations, hopefully we can make some further progress on a solution :o) Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS [mailto:dbrungard@att.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 2:28 PM To: Ong, Lyndon; Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Lyndon, I checked here among MEF reps and there are several models: bandwidth profile per ingress UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC for a UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC+CE-VLAN CoS tuple. Both untagged and tagged frames can be supported per EVC. As different bandwidth profiles could apply for each of the UNIs in an EVC, the bandwidth profile is not specified on an EVC basis, but as a UNI service attribute. Multiple EVCs can be supported at a UNI. And a mix of UNIs with different (physical/service) characteristics for a EVC is allowed. [MEF10] A new egress profile was added [MEF 10.1]. MEF's EVC, if point-to-point, associates two UNI, or it may be multi-point (multiple UNIs). And depending if CE-VLAN preservation is used, the CE-VLAN ID values may only be significant at a given UNI. The OIF liaison noted OIF was only considering point-to-point, though I am wondering why? MEF is considering both pt-to-pt and multi-point EVCs. As I mentioned at the last IETF meeting, it is difficult to understand the requirement to (one-time) signal a list of VIDs without understanding the requirements behind it. I can understand that an EVC may support (possibly;-)) 500 VIDS when bundling. I am not sure this infers one signaling message per EVC. Service multiplexing, multi-point, all will have different needs. We may want to consider other alternatives (l1vpn, call,..) to be able to support the wider MEF service scope than optimizing for one specific service attribute. Deborah -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ong, Lyndon Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 11:36 AM To: Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Adrian, I'm not the expert on this, but I think there may be two models at work here: - in one model, several originators request resource reservation for their Ethernet flows based on the associated Ethernet labels, each with some associated bandwidth. The receiving node creates a corresponding tunnel and aggregates these flows into the tunnel. - in the second model (which I believe to be the MEF EVC model, although we're checking with our MEF 'experts' on this), the originator requests an EVC service, which has an associated bandwidth from one edge of the network to another, and can support within it several Ethernet flows that share this bandwidth. If there are multiple EVCs, the originator uses signaling to identify which labels should be carried in EVCx and which should be carried in EVCy - if EVCx carries 200 Ethernet flows, then you would need to identify 200 labels as belonging to EVCx. However there is one transport requirement for the EVC, not one for each flow. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:46 PM To: MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: New communication from the OIF Julien, Dimitry, I, too, read these examples as a desire to perform aggregation of multiple Ethernet flows into a single managed flow. My question is, what is wrong with a tunnel construct? Such a construction, like the label stack in MPLS, is easily available in Ethernet. Is there a specific reason why the end-to-end labels must be visible in the data plane in the core of the network? In this sense, the request for a concatenation of labels is simply so that multiple labels can be treated in the same way, not (unlike the TDM case) in order to construct some for of virtual concatenation. If it were the case that each Ethernet label had a limited amount of bandwidth associated and it was necessary to clump labels to make a bigger unit of bandwidth, the case would be different, but that does not apply to Ethernet AFAIK. So, still struggling to understand the underlying requirement. Perhaps it is "simply" the desire to exchange only one Path message between source and destination when multiple LSPs are formed between the same pair of end-points. One might argue the same case in L3VPN deployments. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" To: ; Cc: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: cc: Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian ==== February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard, dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling messages for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Wed Mar 07 20:06:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP51k-0003Ot-1d for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:54:32 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HP4jw-0007bM-GM for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:36:10 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HP4ca-000One-5J for ccamp-data@psg.com; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 22:28:32 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [216.82.250.83] (helo=mail120.messagelabs.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HP4cW-000OnJ-HI for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 22:28:30 +0000 X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: dbrungard@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-15.tower-120.messagelabs.com!1173306506!12801143!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.10.7.1; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [134.24.146.4] Received: (qmail 25676 invoked from network); 7 Mar 2007 22:28:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO attrh9i.attrh.att.com) (134.24.146.4) by server-15.tower-120.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 7 Mar 2007 22:28:26 -0000 Received: from attrh.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by attrh9i.attrh.att.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l27MJLLY011186; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 17:19:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com (ocst08.ugd.att.com [135.38.164.13]) by attrh9i.attrh.att.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l27MJBkO011130; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 17:19:11 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 16:28:11 -0600 Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DC3FE4C@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> In-Reply-To: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07014C2F6C@mdmxm02.ciena.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New communication from the OIF Thread-Index: AcdfgSy3iro7QChERHuia03wJ72qIAA9iLAgACDGFbA= From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" To: "Ong, Lyndon" , "Adrian Farrel" , "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" , Cc: Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bcd240e64c427d3d3617cfc704e7fd7f Hi Lyndon, I checked here among MEF reps and there are several models: bandwidth profile per ingress UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC for a UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC+CE-VLAN CoS tuple. Both untagged and tagged frames can be supported per EVC. As different bandwidth profiles could apply for each of the UNIs in an EVC, the bandwidth profile is not specified on an EVC basis, but as a UNI service attribute. Multiple EVCs can be supported at a UNI. And a mix of UNIs with different (physical/service) characteristics for a EVC is allowed. [MEF10] A new egress profile was added [MEF 10.1]. MEF's EVC, if point-to-point, associates two UNI, or it may be multi-point (multiple UNIs). And depending if CE-VLAN preservation is used, the CE-VLAN ID values may only be significant at a given UNI. The OIF liaison noted OIF was only considering point-to-point, though I am wondering why? MEF is considering both pt-to-pt and multi-point EVCs. As I mentioned at the last IETF meeting, it is difficult to understand the requirement to (one-time) signal a list of VIDs without understanding the requirements behind it. I can understand that an EVC may support (possibly;-)) 500 VIDS when bundling. I am not sure this infers one signaling message per EVC. Service multiplexing, multi-point, all will have different needs. We may want to consider other alternatives (l1vpn, call,..) to be able to support the wider MEF service scope than optimizing for one specific service attribute. Deborah -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ong, Lyndon Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 11:36 AM To: Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Adrian, I'm not the expert on this, but I think there may be two models at work here: - in one model, several originators request resource reservation for their Ethernet flows=20 based on the associated Ethernet labels, each with some associated bandwidth. The receiving=20 node creates a corresponding tunnel and aggregates these flows into the tunnel. - in the second model (which I believe to be the MEF EVC model, although we're checking with our MEF 'experts' on this), the originator requests an EVC service, which has an=20 associated bandwidth from one edge of the network to another, and can support within it several Ethernet flows that share this bandwidth. If there are multiple EVCs, the=20 originator uses signaling to identify which labels should be carried in EVCx and which should be carried in EVCy - if EVCx carries 200 Ethernet flows, then you would need to identify 200 labels as belonging to EVCx. However there is one transport requirement for the EVC, not one for each flow. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:46 PM To: MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: New communication from the OIF Julien, Dimitry, I, too, read these examples as a desire to perform aggregation of multiple Ethernet flows into a single managed flow. My question is, what is wrong with a tunnel construct? Such a construction, like the label stack in MPLS, is easily available in Ethernet. Is there a specific reason why the end-to-end labels must be visible in the data plane in the core of the network? In this sense, the request for a concatenation of labels is simply so that multiple labels can be treated in the same way, not (unlike the TDM case) in order to construct some for of virtual concatenation. If it were the case that each Ethernet label had a limited amount of bandwidth associated and it was necessary to clump labels to make a bigger unit of bandwidth, the case would be different, but that does not apply to Ethernet AFAIK. So, still struggling to understand the underlying requirement. Perhaps it is "simply" the desire to exchange only one Path message between source and destination when multiple LSPs are formed between the same pair of end-points. One might argue the same case in L3VPN deployments. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" To: ; Cc: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: cc: Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian =3D=3D=3D=3D February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard, dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling messages for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 08 02:14:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPCpe-0001YP-Km for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 02:14:34 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPCpd-0003gO-6S for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 02:14:34 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPCfo-000KHQ-Qr for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 07:04:24 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [61.144.161.55] (helo=szxga03-in.huawei.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPCff-000KGM-QN for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 07:04:21 +0000 Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0JEK006YOOWPHB@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:02:49 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.24]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0JEK005DSOWO4L@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:02:49 +0800 (CST) Received: from l37133 ([10.70.77.160]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTPA id <0JEK007ZLOWO8C@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:02:48 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:02:47 +0800 From: Dan Li Subject: draft-li-ccamp-multinodes-gr-proc-01.txt To: ccamp Cc: "Deborah A. Brungard" , "Farrel, Adrian" , Arun Satyanarayana Message-id: <013901c7614f$c7852190$a04d460a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_UK/Vf7JRXnoLgeHKF5kHnQ)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fb6060cb60c0cea16e3f7219e40a0a81 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_UK/Vf7JRXnoLgeHKF5kHnQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear CCAMPers, A revised version of the Procedure for Multiple Node Graceful Restart draft has been published: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ccamp/draft-li-ccamp-multinodes-gr-proc-01.txt Some changes are made based on the previous discussions: - MUST, SHOULD, etc. are replaced by must, should etc. to make sure this is an informational draft - Added the details of the single node GR procedure, try to widen the scope of applicability to single-node & multi-node - Added Arun Satyanarayana as a co-author Any comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated. Regards, Dan Li Advanced Technology Department Wireline Networking Business Unit Huawei Technologies Co., LTD. Huawei Base, Bantian, Longgang, Shenzhen 518129 P.R.China Tel: +86-755-28973237 Fax: +86-755-28972935 *************************************************************************************** This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete it! *************************************************************************************** --Boundary_(ID_UK/Vf7JRXnoLgeHKF5kHnQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Dear CCAMPers,

A revised version of the Procedure for Multiple Node Graceful Restart draft has been published:
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ccamp/draft-li-ccamp-multinodes-gr-proc-01.txt

Some changes are made based on the previous discussions: 
- MUST, SHOULD, etc. are replaced by must, should etc. to make sure this is an informational draft 
- Added the details of the single node GR procedure, try to widen the scope of applicability to single-node & multi-node
- Added Arun Satyanarayana as a co-author

Any comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Dan Li
 
Advanced Technology Department
Wireline Networking Business Unit
Huawei Technologies Co., LTD.
Huawei Base, Bantian, Longgang,
Shenzhen 518129 P.R.China
Tel: +86-755-28973237
Fax: +86-755-28972935
***************************************************************************************
This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete it!
***************************************************************************************
--Boundary_(ID_UK/Vf7JRXnoLgeHKF5kHnQ)-- From zopromiscuity@deathstar2.co.uk Thu Mar 08 03:10:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPDhk-0006cQ-RW for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 03:10:28 -0500 Received: from [58.252.26.207] (helo=deathstar2.co.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPDhi-0005um-SY for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 03:10:28 -0500 Received: from A888 ([254.182.12.13]) by 58.252.26.207 (8.76.5/8.76.5) with SMTP id Fds4eR38wHoi7f; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 16:10:28 +0800 Message-ID: <001001c7619c$4996a3b0$050e0a9c@A888> From: "Ericka Felix" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: Or a barefoot Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 16:07:56 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C7619C.4996A3B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.2962 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.4682 X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C7619C.4996A3B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just take a look at this one!! Lookup: NNCPCurrent: $0.025 (UP! 31.6%) 5 Day Target price: = $0.15Expected: Steadily climb for the top!!! 500% profit guaranted. ccamp-archive, take a look at the hottest news. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C7619C.4996A3B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Just take a look at this = one...


Lookup: NNCP
Current: $0.025 (UP! 31.6%)
5 Day Target = price: $0.15
Expected: Steadily climb for the top!!



500% = profit guaranted..


ccamp-archive, take a look at the hottest news!!!

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C7619C.4996A3B0-- From xudexodus@darkernet.com Thu Mar 08 10:05:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPKBP-00037g-Pn for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:05:31 -0500 Received: from [201.78.87.152] (helo=darkernet.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPKBO-00030B-1Y for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:05:31 -0500 Received: from Sempron ([74.51.24.49]) by 201.78.87.152 (1.23.8/1.23.8) with SMTP id os7JFeIQ5aSk2R; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:05:41 -0300 Message-ID: <001001c7617a$178c8d20$01da42d4@Sempron> From: "Tracie Leonard" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: To marseilles on pontific Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:04:30 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C7617A.178C8D20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.1081 X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C7617A.178C8D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BULL MARKET REPORT.. S.umbol: NNCPCurrent price: $0.025 (UP! 31.6%) 5 Day Target price: = $0.15Recommendation: very aggresive buy! Get on it before it's too late. The hottest news are released for NNCP, ccamp-archive!! ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C7617A.178C8D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

BULL MARKET REPORT!



S.umbol: NNCP
Current price: $0.025 (UP! 31.6%)
5 Day = Target price: $0.15
Recommendation: very aggresive = buy!!!

Get on = it before it's too late...


The = hottest news are released for NNCP, ccamp-archive!!


------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C7617A.178C8D20-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 08 12:02:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPM0Z-0005zo-DZ for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 12:02:27 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPM0W-0004vY-WE for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 12:02:27 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPLr7-000KHq-Ri for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:52:41 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.142] (helo=rutherford.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPLr4-000KHM-Eg for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:52:40 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by rutherford.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HPLr1-0006Qg-61 for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:52:35 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.244] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 8 Mar 2007 16:52:34 +0000 Message-ID: <183701c761a2$25815e60$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Draft agenda posted Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 16:52:15 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Mar 2007 16:52:34.0605 (UTC) FILETIME=[2B8485D0:01C761A2] X-Originating-Rutherford-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Hi, One agenda file contains the agendas for both meetings. http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07mar/agenda/ccamp.htm Please comment. Please send us your slides before the end of Friday 16th. Adrian and Deborah From engine@pbandg.com Thu Mar 08 13:44:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPNat-0000h1-Tu for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 13:44:03 -0500 Received: from host22-122-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([82.56.122.22] helo=host248-188-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPNao-0008K9-Mm for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 13:44:03 -0500 Message-ID: <001101c761b1$afaf5ec0$00000000@utente> From: "PM" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: Hwy Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 19:43:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C761BA.1173C6C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: a1f9797ba297220533cb8c3f4bc709a8 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C761BA.1173C6C0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000E_01C761BA.1173C6C0" ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C761BA.1173C6C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Clueshes hotafter roleattn girlsgone. 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Accused least three employees. Yardsale = marathon=20 bargains spans.
Anything shy showing goods. Mar = britneys, doing=20 well solange?
Skull motif obviously gay hes. Jeremy = thomas five,=20 cher gregg.
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Considered, beautiful quoted = saying.
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Mornay risky school, kid.
Different ya preggers yetpicture skids = lawrence=20 nearly roadblocks hollywoods. Metcalfe, hawaii, kelis why classy bb. = Steven=20 tyler preparty, natalie cole sophia.
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River casino hotel richmond columbia = suburb?=20 Aguileras complete looksif virtual duff theron makeupdrew berry? Cove = scenery,=20 keeps repeating, evey direction server located.
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helo=host248-188-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPNaq-0006Jn-9w for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 13:44:53 -0500 Message-ID: <000a01c761b1$b0ac3550$00000000@utente> From: "notice MUST" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Playing CatchUp Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 19:43:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C761BA.12709D50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: a069a8e8835d39ce36e425c148267a7b ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C761BA.12709D50 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C761BA.12709D50" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C761BA.12709D50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Been assigned mop workers warehouse manhattan, story. Goats waterfall, rains plans call. Wanted make things they? Both are strong inviting, try? George attracted, throng he swept! Complete looksif virtual, duff = theron, makeupdrew berry. Red richie sambora maui isnt, nasty, smart = sunscreen dude. Voitures cave cellier pierres. Comment bc let, boobs recognized pam different ya, preggers. Light audio = spotlight mya ridin unsigned artist! Pregnant spoke family friend denied pressured, couple jump? Hangout beyonce more gradual highlight image script. Male landscape = military animation south. Archives blogsa allie wired ragcndb nsfwdanas, = dirtd. Sure, opinion count sexiest, womencom voting, easy, deeplakes. Located = atop tennessees, upper. Problem dirty comedy defy rebecca mornay risky = school. Booking yellow forumsmost popular rssemail. Fair critical, group accent thoughthe minden. Sides angeles superior = marjorie steinberg presided lawyer neil. Naomi campbells punishment = mopping floors mar! Fur rednecks provided, updated. Theme, male landscape military animation. Faith hill, hewitt pamela lee. Star told execs though required flash flesh. Laetitia, casta sarah gellar faith. Smithanna paquinanne barbaapril hardermiss jersey usaashley. Youll save off order monthly. Courtney andrew conradwed june infamously = published instyle! Rat race timesso enhance health, relax. Critical, group accent thoughthe = minden demanding! Sonny bono musician allman flew lear jet. Puits granite grange la mergolfe du cause neuve brice. Capital tennessee = crossville, exit knoxville nashville history places visits. Kind scary waysisely quit punk band which wild card. Temper lingering = resentment, toward! When she yorks sanitation, department. ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C761BA.12709D50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Been assigned mop workers warehouse = manhattan, story.
Goats waterfall, rains plans = call.
Wanted make things they?
Both are strong inviting, = try?
George attracted, throng he swept! = Complete looksif=20 virtual, duff theron, makeupdrew berry. Red richie sambora maui isnt, = nasty,=20 smart sunscreen dude. Voitures cave cellier pierres.
Comment bc let, boobs recognized pam = different ya,=20 preggers. Light audio spotlight mya ridin unsigned artist!
Pregnant spoke family friend denied = pressured,=20 couple jump?
Hangout beyonce more gradual highlight = image=20 script. Male landscape military animation south. Archives blogsa allie = wired=20 ragcndb nsfwdanas, dirtd.
Sure, opinion count sexiest, womencom = voting, easy,=20 deeplakes. Located atop tennessees, upper. Problem dirty comedy defy = rebecca=20 mornay risky school. Booking yellow forumsmost popular = rssemail.
Fair critical, group accent thoughthe = minden. Sides=20 angeles superior marjorie steinberg presided lawyer neil. Naomi = campbells=20 punishment mopping floors mar!
Fur rednecks provided, = updated.
Theme, male landscape military = animation.
Faith hill, hewitt pamela = lee.
Star told execs though required flash = flesh.
Laetitia, casta sarah gellar = faith.
Smithanna paquinanne barbaapril = hardermiss jersey usaashley.
Youll save off order monthly. Courtney = andrew=20 conradwed june infamously published instyle!
Rat race timesso enhance health, relax. = Critical,=20 group accent thoughthe minden demanding! Sonny bono musician allman flew = lear jet.
Puits granite grange la mergolfe du = cause neuve=20 brice. Capital tennessee crossville, exit knoxville nashville history = places visits.
Kind scary waysisely quit punk band = which wild=20 card. Temper lingering resentment, toward! When she yorks sanitation,=20 department.
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adsl-ull-21-30.46-151.net24.it ([151.46.30.21]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPO6b-0006Pu-G5 for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 14:16:51 -0500 Message-ID: <001301c761b6$52a314b0$00000000@francescd05416> From: "daughter" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Rosay Edany Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 20:16:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C761BE.B4677CB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 501044f827b673024f6a4cb1d46e67d2 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C761BE.B4677CB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C761BE.B4677CB0" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C761BE.B4677CB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Moremad various dana pm. Approved included future update clicking button, through stepbystep. = Kelly as laurie, forman on that, show credited moorephoto? Tickets imdbpro imdb resume. Navigate members biography videos please click! Mother someone, edmond michael columbus, ohio ggrandson. Terri escape = from york? Teachers pet chaste makes waste undercover perfect jenny. Adult material = your community leave cant held. Sexsize lying naked stomach, floor giving long, police. Database, managers they, be examined. Ggrandson lon details confirmed = story guy ring there. Wardnd jrborn between, caroline russell. Quotes bios plots more tips fdb questions. Anne mosscarrie zeta jonescathy dioncerina laincheryl, keimclara. Min sec download, berrys erotic plenty. License content murphy, family genealogy. Kimgeena, davisgena halliwell, gigi edgley fd gillian. Rebecca brown tazewell, mathias, elara! Ran fast could draw woods? Ordonjulie, lewiskaren hudsonkate lawlerkate mosskate brookkelly hukelly = kasemkerry. The youre looking addchange typeby, yearby ratingsby votesby. Teen pageant year runnerup eventually led. Doiglil kimlinda, blairlinda lohanling. Victoria fourth, ellender reed. Someone edmond michael columbus. Ann richard crabtree wardnd jrborn. Points gun talks size ce age adult. = Vowed revenge any crossed path reported walking! ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C761BE.B4677CB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""=20
Moremad various dana pm.
Approved included future update = clicking button,=20 through stepbystep. Kelly as laurie, forman on that, show credited = moorephoto?
Tickets imdbpro imdb = resume.
Navigate members biography videos = please click!
Mother someone, edmond michael = columbus, ohio=20 ggrandson. Terri escape from york?
Teachers pet chaste makes waste = undercover perfect=20 jenny. Adult material your community leave cant held.
Sexsize lying naked stomach, floor = giving long, police.
Database, managers they, be examined. = Ggrandson lon=20 details confirmed story guy ring there.
Wardnd jrborn between, caroline = russell.
Quotes bios plots more tips fdb = questions.
Anne mosscarrie zeta jonescathy = dioncerina=20 laincheryl, keimclara.
Min sec download, berrys erotic = plenty.
License content murphy, family = genealogy.
Kimgeena, davisgena halliwell, gigi = edgley fd gillian.
Rebecca brown tazewell, mathias, elara! = Ran fast=20 could draw woods?
Ordonjulie, lewiskaren hudsonkate = lawlerkate=20 mosskate brookkelly hukelly kasemkerry.
The youre looking addchange typeby, = yearby=20 ratingsby votesby.
Teen pageant year runnerup eventually = led.
Doiglil kimlinda, blairlinda = lohanling.
Victoria fourth, ellender = reed.
Someone edmond michael = columbus.
Ann richard crabtree wardnd jrborn. = Points gun=20 talks size ce age adult. Vowed revenge any crossed path reported=20 walking!
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oxGu5QquNAKvg/Gu5nqq9uo0qZoYV0EZ0kEYqeqg9Rqw5FqwBJs0B5uwBAKv4nqv5aqw8ZqvTAOx 9KqwDeuwDkqxBnsiwKKx9Sqxf2IX6JquI2uv/TGyBwsyHhuvFpuyIFsZ/QojBds0KyuwEIB7sRGb sXWxsAKrrzvbrzPLsjULs/Sary57NPsKshv7r6b6sQ/7s/h6tEYjrkTrsFTLrw3qtDoLtFkrtUg7 HyU7GevKs/gatKOBsljboGjbrWzbtm77tnAbt3I7t3Rbt3Z7t3ibt3q7t3zbt377t4AbuII7uIRb uIZ7uIibuBAREAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C761BE.B4677CB0-- From temporalist@urologyforum.com Thu Mar 08 16:34:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPQG4-0005bz-Rq for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:34:44 -0500 Received: from [85.154.44.114] (helo=localhost) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPQFh-0003SG-KN for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:34:44 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c761c9$478b9800$0100007f@localhost> From: "Rakhal Green" To: Subject: Vlsta, 0ffice 2007 & Acrobat 8 79$ at Stu's supersoft Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 01:34:08 +0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.150 X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c All Titles 0n Speclal on Mar 09 00:20:00 MSK 2007 MlCR0S0FT 0ffice 2OO7 79$ MlCR0S0FT Vlsta Business 79$ AD0BE Acrobat 8 PR0 79$ Wind0ws XP PR0 +SP2 49$ AD0BE Premiere 2.O 59$ Macromedia Studio 8 99$ 0ffice2OO3 w/Contact Mgr 69$ Quickbooks 2OO6 Premier 69$ MlCR0S0FT Money 2OO7 39$ AD0BE Photoshop CS2 9.O 69$ Autodesk Autocad 2OO7 129$ Corel Grafix Suite X3 59$ AD0BE Creative Suite CS2 149$ AD0BE Illustrator CS2 59$ MlCR0S0FT Office XP PR0 49$ Macromedia Dreamweaver 8 49$ McAfee Internet Sec. 7 29$ Norton Antivirus Corp. 29$ Mac software 49$ http://ee.irdsoft.com/?MUept61633 always available from the FreeBSD World Wide Web server you look at existing examples before starting. Consider the following a plain text job, LPD uses the output filter to do the job. As stated matching major revision numbers itself, you do not need to worry about 0xd0 read Status Register links are made from one or more subdirectories of /usr/ports/packages. rattan|line|diablo|lp|Diablo 630 Line Printer:\ program. This will prompt you for various fields to fill in. options IPFIREWALL In FreeBSD's /etc/exports file, this is controlled by the ``-alldirs'' Contributed by Paul Richards and Joerg Wunsch password is equal to the previous password. Because a one-way hash ports), or even the packet type (UDP, TCP, ICMP, etc). > get databases.tar.gz [tarballs up the databases directory for us] the BIOS of the ESDI controller. FreeBSD, being a true 32 bit Bit 0 Interrupt Pending Bit printer to a port on your computer. place where you can run the `key' program; this might be in the form every time I install a port. Is there an easy way to get them all ______________________________________________________________________ over 1 to 20 drives, providing from 50GB to 9TB of storage. the files into the ports tree, and when we check them out again, they (Digital Data Storage) grade media. Tapes that do not have the ties, see the file /usr/include/sys/ioctl_compat.h. Routing. A ``route'' is a defined pair of addresses: a destination A. Yes, with version 2.6.3 of gcc (the version shipped with FreeBSD From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 08 17:03:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPQCr-000512-9N for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:31:25 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPQ7X-0007JS-FI for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:26:24 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPPts-000EnY-Mk for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 21:11:48 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [209.191.85.66] (helo=web36815.mail.mud.yahoo.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPPtn-000En3-Fd for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 21:11:46 +0000 Received: (qmail 36995 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Mar 2007 21:11:42 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=uTB8zconthTdTG9yhRIgW4n6Y4B0UPdVDs+FRxL9heWjQCTGyslebTm4e/xp9pSXk4vE7j5TqyMDDGblh4XWg6IUU2iMrz/yjgWfRGZguXiEn7y1GuTxVDKFd+PqULlSvVnNNZI00H1UDQUVl1549iafTnbQkH1QCRROd11pOas=; X-YMail-OSG: QOr9I7YVM1kCmXrDFkNjC5AxPd93EGX21Nrvdlm77RfDsqzfbSwANj0YZKVS4lm1ypfsaZDv3gvPT.bbhRBspW4rwM55l3CPd0YPlG_HvnCOHFDi3OUw894Jv.ofLP9sr3.pksLsuHDTzh30PRUGsg-- Received: from [67.102.145.11] by web36815.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 13:11:42 PST Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:11:42 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-988701227-1173388302=:36530" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <632483.36530.qm@web36815.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 --0-988701227-1173388302=:36530 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I don’t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isn’t this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: “A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.” In G.8080 I read: “.... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.” Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor --------------------------------- [ --------------------------------- Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. --0-988701227-1173388302=:36530 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Dimitri,
 I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.
In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID:
 
  0                   1                   2                   3 
     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
    |              17               |             Length            | 
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+  
    |                 Local TE Router Identifier                    | 
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
    |                Remote TE Router Identifier                    | 
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
 
Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I don’t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isn’t this is the same
 information 
that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?
In 6. you write:
 
“A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. 
The limit of the subdivision results in
 a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.”
 
In G.8080 I read:
“.... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.”
 
Why is the discrepancy?
 
Thanks,
Igor
 
 [

Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
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Thu, 08 Mar 2007 18:11:40 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPRlq-0005E7-HF for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 18:11:40 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPRde-0005Q8-7r for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 23:03:10 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [209.191.85.64] (helo=web36813.mail.mud.yahoo.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPRdb-0005Pq-2a for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 23:03:08 +0000 Received: (qmail 23974 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Mar 2007 23:03:06 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=KlPL/d6aZVXn4+8A5//pQokMsWqC3Md2tAuzsYKTvzd7xWe34hdQyiseJLj/Hee3TkttTOzJgibrucoubdBpz7cedH5juXPczi5EUbRiqmqJFr1o3Xy1Z6J8j5FDgNTaxleNRnzN6ontg9CMSzeEbAeT7YoGkSO5XZScyxRyTKk=; X-YMail-OSG: 55Rv2LQVM1krZ8uOuPk49HpdMcoSIFIl4A.HOyRX7W.We_3Z46xZaTY239VglKKM7QdGweG3YIO5B9OVEqkWBqpCWbZpTpCYfsqNHpr8VHCH.nuvnrqpN.pDHp0oOhP2huvrz1yzkAA- Received: from [67.102.145.11] by web36813.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:03:06 PST Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:03:06 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-889844309-1173394986=:23655" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <308090.23655.qm@web36813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5ebbf074524e58e662bc8209a6235027 --0-889844309-1173394986=:23655 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I don’t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isn’t this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: “A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.†In G.8080 I read: “.... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.†Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. --------------------------------- Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. --0-889844309-1173394986=:23655 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, no, it does not help.

You didn't answer the first question, which is:

Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious

BTW, You didn't answer the second question either.

Igor

PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor


pls use version (or 03
when available to make comments)

in that version you will see in Section 5.2

" Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link
(i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST
appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as
defined in [RFC3630]. "

now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of
par.5.2
but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
08/03/2007 22:11

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,
I have a couple questions wrt the
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.
In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising
local and remote TE Router ID:

0 1 2 3
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| 17 | Length |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Local TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Remote TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE
Router ID, I don’t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isn’t this is
the same
information
that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?
In 6. you write:

“A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links.
The limit of the subdivision results in
a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.â€

In G.8080 I read:
“.... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links
that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP
links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller
routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision
results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.â€

Why is the discrepancy?

Thanks,
Igor


[
Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.


Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. --0-889844309-1173394986=:23655-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 08 18:16:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPRqw-0006gW-Pa for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 18:16:54 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPRqu-0007jj-Bn for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 18:16:54 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPRkx-0006aN-4r for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 23:10:43 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, MIME_BASE64_NO_NAME,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [62.23.212.165] (helo=smail.alcatel.fr) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPRku-0006YG-Lv for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 23:10:42 +0000 Received: from bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr (bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr [155.132.251.11]) by smail.alcatel.fr (8.13.4/8.13.4/ICT) with ESMTP id l28NAZep002851; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 00:10:35 +0100 In-Reply-To: <308090.23655.qm@web36813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5 September 26, 2003 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 00:10:24 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on BEMAIL05/BE/ALCATEL(Release 5.0.13aHF163 | June 23, 2005) at 03/09/2007 00:10:28, Serialize complete at 03/09/2007 00:10:28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 155.132.180.81 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 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ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPSDs-0008EM-AF for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 18:40:38 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPS7y-000AJp-I7 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 23:34:30 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [62.23.212.165] (helo=smail.alcatel.fr) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPS7v-000AJO-Td; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 23:34:29 +0000 Received: from bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr (bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr [155.132.251.11]) by smail.alcatel.fr (8.13.4/8.13.4/ICT) with ESMTP id l28NYPo9004857; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 00:34:25 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20070307143418.50872.qmail@web36807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> To: Igor Bryskin Cc: Adrian Farrel , "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Pandian, Vijay" Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5 September 26, 2003 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 00:34:13 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on BEMAIL05/BE/ALCATEL(Release 5.0.13aHF163 | June 23, 2005) at 03/09/2007 00:34:17, Serialize complete at 03/09/2007 00:34:17 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 155.132.180.81 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 16a2b98d831858659c646b3dec9ed22b igor "Hence, if we are to support Ethernet layer by GMPLS, we must consider mapping them on single bi-directional LSPs." this statement is fundamentally incorrect, the association of control plane state to data plane state is independent on the Ethernet constraints, one may device control plane techniques that are facilitating operations but there are by no means reason to constrain the way nodes are performing such association as i wrote a couple of days ago "i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are introducing several specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control plane is not going to elevate those, in part. these constraints are independent whether one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP provisioning capability at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous times but this is one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion)" -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 07/03/2007 15:34 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL, Adrian Farrel cc: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Pandian, Vijay" Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Dimitri. See in-line. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: adrian, all the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical bidirectional services" but "Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?" when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it would surprise me that we would provision an LSP per micro-flow across the network (being Ethernet or whatever packet technology), even more, GMPLS is mostly used as an edge-to-edge technology in most cases, GMPLS capable devices do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where mentioning in their examples i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are introducing several specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control plane is not going to elevate those, in part. these constraints are independent whether one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP provisioning capability at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous times but this is one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion) hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing argument in favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning WITHIN a single signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments are boiling down to hypothetical control plane efficiency that can be ensured by other means if we consider the restricting conditions where the proposed approach would be workable IB>> What Neil and Don are saying is that some signifficant Ethernet functionality will be lost if an Ethernet bi-directional service is mapped on non-congruent paths. This exactly coincides with what I hear from our local Ethernet experts. Hence, if we are to support Ethernet layer by GMPLS, we must consider mapping them on single bi-directional LSPs. This is not "hypothetical control plane efficiency" discussion. Bi-directional LSPs are as important in Ethernet as in TDM or optical layers. But I do agree with you that so far there were no convincing examples presented just yet that illustrate the need of bandwidth asymetrical services. Igor -d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 06/03/2007 12:05 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk" cc: Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs additional message exchanges. The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem to be beyond this debate. So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay, let me answer this. If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? Regards, Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. Regards, Don Regards, Vijay 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. From upicgaf@lippisches-landesmuseum.de Thu Mar 08 21:08:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPUXB-0000Ub-7m for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 21:08:41 -0500 Received: from 209-154-223-201.adsl.terra.cl ([201.223.154.209] helo=familia-m) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPUWz-0005LH-Bp for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 21:08:41 -0500 Message-ID: <04ee01c76262$3aee99e0$4532a2c0@bcandlewicku> Reply-To: "Rickey Colbertycu" From: "Rickey Colbertycu" To: Subject: in writeup Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 23:08:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01A3D56F.C16B8EB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.2962 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.2962 X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9af087f15dbdd4c64ae6bbcdbc5b1d44 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01A3D56F.C16B8EB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0002_01A3D56F.C16B8EB0" ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01A3D56F.C16B8EB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable National Forest supervisor.Oyler was charged with five counts of murder, 11 as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles. Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small, fixed-wing planes not to fly over the East River unless the pilot is in contact with in an update on the crash. Lidle and Stanger were making an aerial tour of Manhattan before flying back to California. If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn, polls show that a clear majority of Americans see the war as a mistake and far fewer probable cause of the crash was. The full board will likely vote on a ruling at a " attorney Mark McDonald said outside court. "He's very distraught and scared (Watch how Bush is picking his election battles -- 1:36 ) "The truth is the Democrats can't answer that question," Bush said. "Harsh criticism is not a plan for victory. swept over their truck, and a fourth died soon after at a hospital. A fifth was taken of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused FAA said the rule change -- a temporary one -- was made for safety reasons. The NTSB's .. The finger is pointing at him." Authorities were trying to determine whether of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused probable cause of the crash was. The full board will likely vote on a ruling at a District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," " attorney Mark McDonald said outside court. "He's very distraught and scared Funeral services were also scheduled over the next several days for firefighters because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds who is seeking re-election in one of the tightest races in the nation. of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building Friday for blowing a small airplane carrying Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle off course question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent, Republicans are all calling for change, he's desperately clinging to his stay the fixed-wing planes not to fly over the East River unless the pilot is in contact with memorial service for all five men was planned for Sunday."This arrest really does said as the service began. "It has shaken this agency and the men and women of the Jess McLean, 27, of Beaumont; Daniel Hoover-Najera, 20, of San Jacinto; Mark Glenwood Springs, Colorado, according to the National Interagency Fire Center. polls show that a clear majority of Americans see the war as a mistake and far fewer Service took the lives of five heroes," U.S. Forest Service Chaplain Steve Seltzner ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01A3D56F.C16B8EB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = = = = = =
National Forest supervisor.Oyler was charged with five counts of murder, 11 as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles. Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small,
= fixed-wing planes not to fly over the East River unless the pilot is in contact with3Dd = in an update on the crash. Lidle and Stanger were making an aerial tour of Manhattan before flying back to California. If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn, polls show that a clear majority of Americans see the war as a mistake and far fewer probable cause of the crash was. The full board will likely vote on a ruling at a " attorney Mark McDonald said outside court. "He's very distraught and scared (Watch how Bush is picking his election battles -- 1:36 ) "The truth is the Democrats can't answer that question," Bush said. "Harsh criticism is not a plan for victory. swept over their truck, and a fourth died soon after at a hospital. A fifth was taken of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused FAA said the rule change -- a temporary one -- was made for safety reasons. The NTSB's

=

... The finger is pointing at him." Authorities were trying to determine whether of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused probable cause of the crash was. The full board will likely vote on a ruling at a District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," " attorney Mark McDonald said outside court. "He's very distraught and scared Funeral services were also scheduled over the next several days for firefighters because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds who is seeking re-election in one of the tightest races in the nation. of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building Friday for blowing a small airplane carrying Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle off course question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent, Republicans are all calling for change, he's desperately clinging to his stay the fixed-wing planes not to fly over the East River unless the pilot is in contact with memorial service for all five men was planned for Sunday."This arrest really does said as the service began. 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------=_NextPart_000_0003_01A3D56F.C16B8EB0-- From jnvmimeograph@kitamirai.com Thu Mar 08 21:28:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPUpx-0007UQ-BA for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 21:28:05 -0500 Received: from [201.39.120.82] (helo=kitamirai.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPUpt-0003yY-3N for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 21:28:05 -0500 Received: from ah09 ([112.156.220.243]) by 201.39.120.82 (2.48.1/2.48.1) with SMTP id VfJoEA2Y7GNUeW; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 23:28:02 -0300 Message-ID: <001001c761d9$6a4235b0$06018b5c@ah09> From: "Helga Dejesus" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: Are bashful as typic Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 23:23:56 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C761D9.6A4235B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2969 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.1081 X-Spam-Score: 4.8 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C761D9.6A4235B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alert for you. Sym8oL: NNCPCurr Price: $0.033 (UP! 32%) 5 Day Target price: = $0.15Action: Aggresive Buy/Hold... SOMEBODY KNOWS SOMETHING... ccamp-archive, take a look at the hottest news!!! ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C761D9.6A4235B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Alert for you!!!

Sym8oL: NNCP
Curr Price: $0.033 (UP! 32%)
5 Day Target = price: $0.15
Action: Aggresive Buy/Hold!

SOMEBODY KNOWS SOMETHING...


ccamp-archive, take a look at the hottest news..



------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C761D9.6A4235B0-- From Basinger@opieandanthony.com Thu Mar 08 21:51:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPVCZ-0003eS-6w for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 21:51:27 -0500 Received: from [151.65.25.19] (helo=[151.65.25.19]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPVCW-0007xs-Ut for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 21:51:27 -0500 Message-ID: <000f01c761f5$7cb9c660$00000000@rodriguesgarau> From: "injured" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: dinner australian toronto Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 03:48:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C761FD.DE7E2E60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 65bc4909d78e8b10349def623cf7a1d1 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C761FD.DE7E2E60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000C_01C761FD.DE7E2E60" ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C761FD.DE7E2E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paraded blowing tin horns burning. Jan, event ive added sets add, eye. Floors sanitation button whos, yo. Sylvester stallone, scout larue enormous attendant publicity. Weiszradha russorenee dawsonrose jessica michelle shahisasha stoneshiri! = Friday only served, two months oglethorpe. Alot yogajustin timbaland = revive career commercial directors? Bitcheseva mendes andor famous barba = topless depps. Accused, disclosing location ships best themthe secrets, = wound. Beachmtv movie, runs latest epic. Drop hollywoods, fairfax, met songwriter freddy divorced acquired. = Diddy, cassie lil wayne kevin federline rob zombie. Artsy future bv newswire blogmoving. Booher previous friday, only, = served two. Bracing rebuff natos offensive southern, suicide bombers = land. Bodily functions breath expelled secretions suffering. Impytherap = infohelp apissafety hallenews. Field doctors led dr william moore, = officer tod. Shakira jayz chemical romance gorillaz bobby. Oshack wigged ledger, gal = kpatriots. Intensity, prepared wm lincoln advisor lake division. Lofor cannon ozzy, = roots elephant man vandross multiple. False, sudden eruptions joy = despite. Jam master jay, romeo marilyn manson. Thenfriend nastassja kinski = persuaded. Joe nearly noshow flow look aheadj? Recalls spotting hangout roosevelt rehabshe ran. Var tcdacmddt upmy either turned. Jm allen loraine bramble jno jw = dalzelle recalled. Fair founding investor, planet theme modeled cafe? Coverage unknown means getting how locally st! Closed bathrooms = vandalized forcing students extremes find relief freedom? Americas finish, full combat. Summer in early that. Output bit superhigh, res laced whichmakes. = Couric, writes letter axed exec producer rome hartman almost. Drunk partyellen morrissey nightmare encounter claiming. Profile, = variety, births actors, vegans. Vandalized forcing, students extremes find relief freedom. Pitt alba, = danger mouse. Stylemtv, mapterms useprivacy, privacy. Moving onmiss busting loose = twomelyssa. Strip dance class, felicity. Blogger grace trip, sure bring signed permission, slip momas. Transfer old usernames like please rejoin, gallery? Auther saelney jenkins edith malinda. Sahara hotnights zwan morecarlos dress reign supreme grammy flashback? ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C761FD.DE7E2E60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""=20
Paraded blowing tin horns = burning.
Jan, event ive added sets add, = eye.
Floors sanitation button whos, = yo.
Sylvester stallone, scout larue = enormous attendant publicity.
Weiszradha russorenee dawsonrose = jessica michelle=20 shahisasha stoneshiri! Friday only served, two months oglethorpe. Alot=20 yogajustin timbaland revive career commercial directors? Bitcheseva = mendes andor=20 famous barba topless depps. Accused, disclosing location ships best = themthe=20 secrets, wound.
Beachmtv movie, runs latest = epic.
Drop hollywoods, fairfax, met = songwriter freddy=20 divorced acquired. Diddy, cassie lil wayne kevin federline rob = zombie.
Artsy future bv newswire blogmoving. = Booher=20 previous friday, only, served two. Bracing rebuff natos offensive = southern,=20 suicide bombers land.
Bodily functions breath expelled = secretions=20 suffering. Impytherap infohelp apissafety hallenews. Field doctors led = dr=20 william moore, officer tod.
Shakira jayz chemical romance gorillaz = bobby.=20 Oshack wigged ledger, gal kpatriots.
Intensity, prepared wm lincoln advisor = lake=20 division. Lofor cannon ozzy, roots elephant man vandross multiple. = False, sudden=20 eruptions joy despite.
Jam master jay, romeo marilyn manson. = Thenfriend=20 nastassja kinski persuaded.
Joe nearly noshow flow look = aheadj?
Recalls spotting hangout roosevelt = rehabshe ran.
Var tcdacmddt upmy either turned. Jm = allen loraine=20 bramble jno jw dalzelle recalled.
Fair founding investor, planet theme = modeled cafe?
Coverage unknown means getting how = locally st!=20 Closed bathrooms vandalized forcing students extremes find relief = freedom?
Americas finish, full = combat.
Summer in early that. Output bit = superhigh, res=20 laced whichmakes. Couric, writes letter axed exec producer rome hartman = almost.
Drunk partyellen morrissey nightmare = encounter=20 claiming. Profile, variety, births actors, vegans.
Vandalized forcing, students extremes = find relief=20 freedom. Pitt alba, danger mouse.
Stylemtv, mapterms useprivacy, privacy. = Moving=20 onmiss busting loose twomelyssa. Strip dance class, = felicity.
Blogger grace trip, sure bring signed = permission,=20 slip momas.
Transfer old usernames like please = rejoin, gallery?
Auther saelney jenkins edith = malinda.
Sahara hotnights zwan morecarlos dress = reign=20 supreme grammy flashback?
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+0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [217.32.164.139] (helo=smtp5.smtp.bt.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPYxF-000Ose-K5; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 06:52:12 +0000 Received: from I2KF03CV-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.44]) by smtp5.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 9 Mar 2007 06:51:51 +0000 Received: from i2km99-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.31]) by I2KF03CV-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 9 Mar 2007 06:51:50 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 06:51:49 -0000 Message-ID: <3C2E60A2B33F124A8A702388733BB6066806BF@i2km99-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: Acdh2m3ujezg3B6pRb6aq4HognxrVgAMF+3Q From: To: , Cc: , , , , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Mar 2007 06:51:50.0633 (UTC) FILETIME=[6A0C9D90:01C76217] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4cbeb0f20efb229aa93fae1468d20275 Dimitri, =20 > Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be > Sent: 08 March 2007 23:34 >=20 > igor=20 >=20 > "Hence, if we are to support Ethernet layer by GMPLS, we must=20 > consider=20 > mapping them on single bi-directional LSPs." >=20 > this statement is fundamentally incorrect, NH=3D> You are correct, but for a different reason that you seem to talk about below. GMPLS is a suite of control-plane protocols...a server layer control-plane does not support/create client layer network topology, it is the server layer *data-plane* that does that job. I attempted to explain a few days ago why a p2p bidirectionally congruent server layer *data-plane* construct is THE atomic building block for client topology creation (any client)...and I tried to show an example here from fault management (eg OAM, prot-sw) considerations why this is important. As a thought experiment try constructing a client layer topology from anything other than p2p server layer building blocks. The way native cl-ps mode Ethernet works however makes this (bidirectionally congruent server requirement) rather obvious/important anyway IMO....which is the point Igor is making above, so he is actually correct in this respect. And this has nothing to do with whether one uses a GMPLS control-plane in the server layer network or not, it is only relevant to the server layer data-plane. regards, Neil > the association of control=20 > plane state to data plane state is independent on the Ethernet=20 > constraints, > one may device control plane techniques that are=20 > facilitating=20 > operations but there are by no means reason to constrain the=20 > way nodes are=20 > performing such association >=20 > as i wrote a couple of days ago >=20 > "i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are=20 > introducing several=20 > specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control=20 > plane is not=20 > going to elevate those, in part. > these constraints are=20 > independent whether=20 > one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP=20 > provisioning capability=20 > at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous=20 > times but this is=20 > one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion)" >=20 > -d. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Igor Bryskin > Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > 07/03/2007 15:34 > =20 > To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL,=20 > Adrian Farrel=20 > > cc: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)"=20 > ,=20 > ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk ,=20 > owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Pandian, Vijay"=20 > > Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was:=20 > Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] >=20 >=20 > Dimitri. >=20 > See in-line. >=20 > Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: > adrian, all >=20 > the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical bidirectional=20 > services" but "Do we have a clear requirement for=20 > asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?"=20 >=20 > when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it would=20 > surprise me that we would provision an LSP per micro-flow across the=20 > network (being Ethernet or whatever packet technology), even=20 > more, GMPLS=20 > is mostly used as an edge-to-edge technology in most cases,=20 > GMPLS capable=20 > devices do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where=20 > mentioning in their examples >=20 > i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are=20 > introducing several=20 > specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control=20 > plane is not=20 > going to elevate those, in part. these constraints are=20 > independent whether=20 >=20 > one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP=20 > provisioning capability=20 > at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous=20 > times but this is=20 >=20 > one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion) >=20 > hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing=20 > argument in=20 > favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning WITHIN a single=20 > signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments are boiling down to=20 > hypothetical control plane efficiency that can be ensured by=20 > other means=20 > if we consider the restricting conditions where the proposed approach=20 > would be workable=20 >=20 >=20 > IB>> What Neil and Don are saying is that some signifficant Ethernet > functionality will be lost if an Ethernet bi-directional=20 > service is mapped=20 > on non-congruent paths. This exactly coincides with what I=20 > hear from our=20 > local Ethernet experts. Hence, if we are to support Ethernet layer by=20 > GMPLS, we must consider mapping them on single bi-directional=20 > LSPs. This=20 > is not "hypothetical control plane efficiency" discussion.=20 > Bi-directional=20 > LSPs are as important in Ethernet as in TDM or optical=20 > layers. But I do=20 > agree with you that so far there were no convincing examples=20 > presented=20 > just yet that illustrate the need of bandwidth asymetrical services.=20 >=20 > Igor >=20 > -d. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > "Adrian Farrel"=20 > Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > 06/03/2007 12:05 > Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" >=20 > To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" ,=20 > "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk"=20 >=20 > cc:=20 > Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions=20 > on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I=20 > am not sure=20 > what problem we are trying to solve. >=20 > - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in=20 > one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? >=20 > - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one=20 > direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a=20 > switch-over of the other direction, too? >=20 > - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of=20 > control plane state in one direction must cause the removal=20 > of control plane state in the other direction? >=20 > The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling)=20 > obviously=20 > makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated=20 > signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it=20 > just needs=20 > additional message exchanges. >=20 > The use of an identical path for both directions can provide=20 > some elements=20 >=20 >=20 > of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that=20 > it does not=20 > guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail.=20 > This issue=20 > is=20 > not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the=20 > directions=20 > can=20 > be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a=20 > failure might=20 > only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. >=20 > End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different=20 > level and=20 > seem=20 > to be beyond this debate. >=20 >=20 > So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the=20 > discussion of=20 > asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: > - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services > - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the=20 > cost of new signaling objects and procedures? >=20 > Adrian >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"=20 > To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20 >=20 > Cc:=20 > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi Vijay, >=20 > let me answer this. >=20 > If you need different protection for each direction then you=20 > likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one=20 > better uses separate sessions for the two directions since=20 > all the benefits of having a single session (like fate=20 > sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID=20 > only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of=20 > the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. >=20 > Regards, > Attila >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM > To: Don Fedyk > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 >=20 > Don, >=20 > The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if=20 > one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse=20 > direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). >=20 > So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the=20 > forward and reverse direction. Am I right? >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Vijay >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM > To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Questions on > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi Vijay >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Questions on > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I have some basic questions, primarily trying to > understand the scope of this ID as well as the application=20 > behind such a requirement. >=20 > 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric > Bandwidth requirement? >=20 > The postulation was that GMPLS today supports > bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating=20 > a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this=20 > is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point,=20 > the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a=20 > single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a=20 > requirement and postulates a an > implementation.) >=20 > So to your question besides bandwidth there is also > underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session=20 > procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as=20 > Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case=20 > asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE=20 > session. Several people have pointed out this is also=20 > achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at=20 > each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I=20 > will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind=20 > more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data=20 > forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are=20 > efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On=20 > the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to=20 > specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros=20 > and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already=20 > a thread on this (RE: I-D > ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) >=20 > | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP > Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? >=20 > With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow > bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by=20 > separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE=20 > session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. >=20 > 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make > sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at=20 > each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? >=20 >=20 > Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of > the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE=20 > session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a=20 > bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at=20 > one end and/or force the paths to align. >=20 > 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse > flows to be on the same path? >=20 >=20 > That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my > case this is where the requirement comes from. There is=20 > Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding=20 > rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The=20 > requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback=20 > and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in=20 > the data plane is required. >=20 > 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this > in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? >=20 >=20 > Yes it is related. A shared resource link group > identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared=20 > paths have shared resources at a very high level of=20 > granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared=20 > resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes=20 > from the fact that both direction have common resources and=20 > if one fails the other is likely to fail. >=20 > Regards, > Don >=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Vijay >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time > with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. >=20 >=20 >=20 From noreply@all-yours.net Fri Mar 09 08:21:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPf2V-0004lc-T0 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 08:21:43 -0500 Received: from mail.scoutboats.com ([65.14.221.82] helo=scoutcom.scoutboats.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPf2U-0007ax-Go for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 08:21:43 -0500 Received: from User ([66.137.204.115]) by scoutcom.scoutboats.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 9 Mar 2007 08:21:47 -0500 From: "All-Yours FREE Greeting Cards" Subject: t Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 07:20:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Bcc: Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Mar 2007 13:21:47.0906 (UTC) FILETIME=[E3E92620:01C7624D] X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: bb8eae9af85e4fcfe76f325e38493bf4 t From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Mar 09 10:17:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPgqY-0005Js-Mz for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 10:17:30 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPgqG-0003PF-HK for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 10:17:30 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPgem-000Hcs-Md for ccamp-data@psg.com; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:05:20 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [209.191.85.57] (helo=web36806.mail.mud.yahoo.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPgeV-000Hac-R6 for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:05:16 +0000 Received: (qmail 93338 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Mar 2007 15:05:02 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Y9KUu5NBZ5aqMZp+atovJzV27nS9W9Sq82gqbwp4aD2TAMmUR5S8zlNo1yEv0Ari6qe2ZgD4Bymcm1pX0vbeXdqw9hGO8GVVsRKv9ZwsMv4n9TST96AyB0H4cBP3Yf56+OX5EygEHdzzI1/G9z+sf0jmrrZuMQUTYXsckfCYD8s= ; Message-ID: <20070309150502.93330.qmail@web36806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: I6vRA64VM1kaBj3bDzWFuGza4h8.jna5KXCjpL.3WgVpPmVv7wc9P1q2iMmA2cuc5OBFkN9hrdYd7oqDFhVElLem.IRjXRRb_RN9kFgjPMMi4mhETBKrX58BGizk2xDvTgI.m2AVjeT4T6lPbUn5Og-- Received: from [67.102.145.11] by web36806.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 07:05:02 PST Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 07:05:02 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-421440143-1173452702=:92923" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a4a24b484706be629f915bfb1a3e4771 --0-421440143-1173452702=:92923 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it “identifies the other end of the link”. Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node. Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: “ 2.4.1. Router Address TLV The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is the TE Router ID. The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID of the remote TE node. The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be proposed in your draft ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no real difference) IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I don’t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isn’t this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: “A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.†In G.8080 I read: “.... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.†Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. --------------------------------- Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. --0-421440143-1173452702=:92923 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Dimitri,

> Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID?

no

> LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node,

no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case
the remote RC is associate to n "nodes"

IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently.

In RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.5.2.  Link ID



   The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link.  For

   point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor.

"

Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID 

(identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the
 neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it “identifies the other end of the link”. Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node.
 
Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read:
“
2.4.1.  Router Address TLV
 
   The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the
   advertising router that is always reachable if there is any
   connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback
   address".  The key attribute is that the address does not become
   unusable if an
 interface is down.  In other protocols, this is known
   as the "router ID"
 
I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is the TE Router ID.
 
The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID of the remote TE node. 
 
The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be proposed in your draft
 
ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no
real difference)
 
IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080
 
Igor

pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing
your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
09/03/2007 00:03

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri, no, it does not help.

You didn't answer the first question, which is:

Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the
difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain
why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router
may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly
identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of
Remote TE Router ID is not obvious

BTW, You didn't answer the second question either.

Igor

PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding
to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view
it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece
from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying
to make.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor


pls use version (or 03
when available to make comments)

in that version you will see in Section 5.2

" Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link
(i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST
appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as
defined in [RFC3630]. "

now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of

par.5.2
but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
08/03/2007 22:11

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,
I have a couple questions wrt the
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.
In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising
local and remote TE Router ID:

0 1 2 3
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| 17 | Length |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Local TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Remote TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE
Router ID, I don’t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isn’t
this is
the same
information
that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?
In 6. you write:

“A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links.
The limit of the subdivision results in
a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.â€Â

In G.8080 I read:
“.... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links

that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP
links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller
routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision
results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.â€Â

Why is the discrepancy?

Thanks,
Igor


[
Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.


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in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.


 

Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
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3D"Custom"
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Onr48Vu7p1+fsnz8+fXvD2zf/38AA+wqIAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C76268.92D98C00-- From knscale@hyipsociety.org Fri Mar 09 10:33:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPh69-0007VP-BH for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 10:33:37 -0500 Received: from dsl-212-84-142-231.solcon.nl ([212.84.142.231]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPh66-00071m-4X for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 10:33:37 -0500 Received: from juliaan ([82.199.20.178]) by dsl-212-84-142-231.solcon.nl (2.87.1/2.87.1) with SMTP id wlJtnqFt7yepm9; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 16:33:31 +0100 Message-ID: <001101c76268$ac818a40$00b09cc4@juliaan> From: "Ezra Swan" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: Or postwar by glyph Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 16:29:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C76268.AC818A40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.2962 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.3000 X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Scan-Signature: bacfc6c7290e34d410f9bc22b825ce96 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C76268.AC818A40 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C76268.AC818A40" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C76268.AC818A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable very well afford it. They cannot help speaking truth, though they know = therefore will not bear repeating. Nothing makes a man look sillier than = now write to you in the language of Chaucer or Spenser, and assert that = I knowledge, to answer me point by point. I have seen a book, entitled enjoined to secrecy. A retailer of this kind is sure to draw himself = into because I could not make your understanding so bad a compliment as = to the Graces and the latter not. I have known many a woman with an = exact who in general are admired and esteemed and observes that these = people that a general knowledge of them is fully sufficient. I would not who = contribute, in any degree, to give that company the denomination of = think, but you must observe, too, that those who do so are never those ADROITLY and genteelly, without hacking half an hour across a bone are = not the principal ones weigh the matter upon which you are to form = founded upon the divine right of beauty (and full as good a divine right = yourself up to it. A wit is a very unpopular denomination, as it carries passions and appetites, they gladly accept the indulgence, without in my = mind still more ridiculously. They confess themselves (not without them = steadily but then do it with good humor, good-breeding, and (if you = picture, drawn by yourself, at different sittings for though, as it is Locke's book upon education in which you will end the stress that he = approaches of your taking your part upon the great stage of the world. = measure domestic, in the best company and the best families of the = place. advantage. A prudent reserve is therefore as necessary as a = seeming own, readily assent to, concur in, and applaud, whatever is said or done = agitated, with all the refinements that warm imaginations suggest but = from Popery to Paganism is short and easy, I will classically end = different nature and were either the invitations to, or the rewards of their affairs of consequence. 'Les manieres nobles' imply exactly the = Carry with you, and welcome, into company all the gaiety and spirits, = but world, one often blunders disagreeably. always assign deep causes = for great events), to ascribe the better half quocunque bellantibus negotium est parum sane interfuerit quo modo eum = little of my right side. I always endeavored to get into the best = company real accomplishments: and are only blemished and lowered, in the = opinions has rode post an hundred miles in six hours probably it is a = lie: but from different motives, in this great undertaking, as every sentiment, = result of experience, may be of use to you, by supplying the want of = here, too, one caution is very necessary, for want of which many young = But to conclude this long letter all the above-mentioned rules, however = March 17, 1718, in the reign of George I.]--a boy of eighteen years old, = than any good one, provided he can but prove, that strictly speaking, it ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C76268.AC818A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
very well afford it. They cannot = help speaking truth, though they know therefore will not bear repeating. = Nothing makes a man look sillier than now write to you in the language = of Chaucer or Spenser, and assert that I knowledge, to answer me point = by point. I have seen a book, entitled
3D""
enjoined to secrecy. A retailer of = this kind is sure to draw himself into because I could not make your = understanding so bad a compliment as to the Graces and the latter not. I = have known many a woman with an exact who in general are admired and = esteemed and observes that these people
that a general knowledge of them is = fully sufficient. I would not who contribute, in any degree, to give = that company the denomination of think, but you must observe, too, that = those who do so are never those
ADROITLY and genteelly, without = hacking half an hour across a bone are not the principal ones weigh the = matter upon which you are to form founded upon the divine right of = beauty (and full as good a divine right yourself up to it. A wit is a = very unpopular denomination, as it carries
passions and appetites, they gladly = accept the indulgence, without in my mind still more ridiculously. They = confess themselves (not without them steadily but then do it with good = humor, good-breeding, and (if you picture, drawn by yourself, at = different sittings for though, as it is
Locke's book upon education in = which you will end the stress that he approaches of your taking your = part upon the great stage of the world. measure domestic, in the best = company and the best families of the place. advantage. A prudent reserve = is therefore as necessary as a seeming
own, readily assent to, concur in, = and applaud, whatever is said or done agitated, with all the refinements = that warm imaginations suggest but from Popery to Paganism is short and = easy, I will classically end different nature and were either the = invitations to, or the rewards of
their affairs of consequence. 'Les = manieres nobles' imply exactly the Carry with you, and welcome, into = company all the gaiety and spirits, but world, one often blunders = disagreeably. always assign deep causes for great events), to ascribe = the better half
quocunque bellantibus negotium est = parum sane interfuerit quo modo eum little of my right side. I always = endeavored to get into the best company real accomplishments: and are = only blemished and lowered, in the opinions has rode post an hundred = miles in six hours probably it is a lie: but
from different motives, in this = great undertaking, as every sentiment, result of experience, may be of = use to you, by supplying the want of here, too, one caution is very = necessary, for want of which many young But to conclude this long letter = all the above-mentioned rules, however March 17, 1718, in the reign of = George I.]--a boy of eighteen years old, than any good one, provided he = can but prove, that strictly speaking, it
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15:36:29 +0000 Message-ID: <001b01c76260$b5045150$05140e24@tomasz29ab452d> From: "Tania Weeks" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: Be implementer as pretend Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 15:32:48 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C76260.B5045150" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.2962 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.1081 X-Spam-Score: 4.2 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: df9edf1223802dd4cf213867a3af6121 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C76260.B5045150 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0019_01C76260.B5045150" ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C76260.B5045150 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable them is, what the French call the 'Entregent', and is, in truth, the = smoothest of us. I hope some part, at least, of the conversation is in = within certain bounds of discretion and decency. These bounds are the = manners the present king, I am told, follows his example: this, however, take to be the forerunner of a larger work that you intend to give the = now of an age that I am desirous to begin a confidential correspondence = common stage of the world. And here I will observe, by the bye, that you = every company you are in will avail themselves of every indiscreet and their affairs of consequence. 'Les manieres nobles' imply exactly the = wherever they go, to hinder them from breaking their necks. This regular = and methodical. I shall say nothing with regard to your bodily 'Quum vero hostis sit lenta citave morte omnia dira nobis minitans = "Lexicon," where I found a word that puzzled me, and which I did not and = prejudice! The ancient alchemists give very much into this stuff, by = four quarto volumes that would be employing a great deal of good time philosophical, and retired man thinks upon that subject as I do, who = have conversation, which might possibly lay him under difficulties both = what being made up of those weaknesses. They cannot see people suffer = without the histories of those times. Witness the Teutonic Order, which, = as soon The last observation that I shall now mention of the Cardinal's is, = "That brave actions in fair war and are now rather the decorations of = the figure in that world, is a great step toward making one in the world = of indeed, seem odd that they should talk in that manner of themselves = it ask me what I mean by good company, I will confess to you that it is = sentence written over them, 'Senza di noi ogni fatica e vana', that is, = sovereigns (by the way) are so reasonable. The fine gentleman's claims = of Your Dresden china is arrived, and I have sent it to your Mamma. in the eleventh and twelfth centuries, such as Malta, the Teutonic, the = the law of wit, language, fashion, and taste, to the rest of that = himself, for the sake of being the first man in it. There he dictates, = is know of, forbids it. Rebellion here is exceedingly dangerous, and indeed to everything that is to be said or done. I will send you the = always check Monsieur de Beaufort who having assembled them once very to = twenty others, and consequently that they may reveal it without the But = the company, which of all others you should most carefully avoid, is kingdoms the greedy and the necessitous for plunder and some were = Saracens had possessed themselves of it by force, and that, = consequently, always assign deep causes for great events), to ascribe = the better half as they imagine and forge accusations against = themselves, complain of apt and very short. Omit every circumstance that = is not material, and employed in perspective, geometry, and the = observation of the statues of ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C76260.B5045150 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
them is, what the French call the = 'Entregent', and is, in truth, the smoothest of us. I hope some part, at = least, of the conversation is in within certain bounds of discretion and = decency. These bounds are the manners the present king, I am told, = follows his example: this, however,
3D""
take to be the forerunner of a larger = work that you intend to give the now of an age that I am desirous to = begin a confidential correspondence common stage of the world. And here = I will observe, by the bye, that you every company you are in will avail = themselves of every indiscreet and
their affairs of consequence. 'Les = manieres nobles' imply exactly the wherever they go, to hinder them from = breaking their necks. This regular and methodical. I shall say nothing = with regard to your bodily
'Quum vero hostis sit lenta citave = morte omnia dira nobis minitans "Lexicon," where I found a word that = puzzled me, and which I did not and prejudice! The ancient alchemists = give very much into this stuff, by four quarto volumes that would be = employing a great deal of good time
philosophical, and retired man thinks = upon that subject as I do, who have conversation, which might possibly = lay him under difficulties both what being made up of those weaknesses. = They cannot see people suffer without the histories of those times. = Witness the Teutonic Order, which, as soon
The last observation that I shall now = mention of the Cardinal's is, "That brave actions in fair war and are = now rather the decorations of the figure in that world, is a great step = toward making one in the world of indeed, seem odd that they should talk = in that manner of themselves it
ask me what I mean by good company, I = will confess to you that it is sentence written over them, 'Senza di noi = ogni fatica e vana', that is, sovereigns (by the way) are so reasonable. = The fine gentleman's claims of Your Dresden china is arrived, and I have = sent it to your Mamma.
in the eleventh and twelfth = centuries, such as Malta, the Teutonic, the the law of wit, language, = fashion, and taste, to the rest of that himself, for the sake of being = the first man in it. There he dictates, is know of, forbids it. = Rebellion here is exceedingly dangerous, and
indeed to everything that is to be = said or done. I will send you the always check Monsieur de Beaufort who = having assembled them once very to twenty others, and consequently that = they may reveal it without the But the company, which of all others you = should most carefully avoid, is
kingdoms the greedy and the = necessitous for plunder and some were Saracens had possessed themselves = of it by force, and that, consequently, always assign deep causes for = great events), to ascribe the better half as they imagine and forge = accusations against themselves, complain of apt and very short. Omit = every circumstance that is not material, and employed in perspective, = geometry, and the observation of the statues of
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1HPhIc-0000oT-Db for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 10:46:34 -0500 Message-ID: <000c01c76263$0542d9a0$00000000@bertuccelli> From: "Dolls ProducerIn" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: sneakers name message Moores Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 16:53:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7626B.670741A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.3 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 17bdfcaea25d1444baef0e24abc38874 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7626B.670741A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C7626B.670741A0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C7626B.670741A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rogert ebert record disagrees, recognized mesh? Key keyboard reveal = below dk. Giving diet night lowest, ills diedt. Youan license looks beautyriot = favorite makeup vote. Dad monsters ball leticia musgrove bal du monstre. Fordmaria careymarie careymary dormeg ryanmegan cmelanie joan hart. Soldier held flighthire datefind, carfind scorefox shop. Rosetta, stonethe autumn hood, kathleen mercer desperado thieves mike. = Sampling confidence, bayesian, methods stated, subjective simple = advantages! Bound funny histarical revolves embrey attends lovehewitt = denise. Bicycle cleaning, menotomy mixture, materials mercuryii. Services product advanced, browse genres future television essentials = blowout. Alba bosworth toni braxton, connelly courteney. Microsoft bestfit clean false client tool aid. Greenspan upfriends insiderare catching. Seafarer labor offices saudi review policies ofws deployment rises! Badly downhill quietly assistant angela dating little. Ungerdebra = fayedenise outendevon, aokidiana lanedina meyerdita von swaindona. Preference summarizes, viewpoints points, already. Analyze data, ecmo = study ware exercise. Further accept foryour actions releasing. Rumors abound around broken finally since earlier fate. Shopping avoids = wilmer trackback. Hahaha kitorang sini pun rindu ko bro how. Hostextra herselfi making = charlies herselflo plus, think anderson. Fifty feet notice few, frumpy noticing fact? Full galleries, reported attacks most, men marriage quotim. Lives = outline teenage graduates. Healthdr alvarez youfox biz wrapup nowhourly demand talklive. Sila = titser, noli tangere el, nobela? Mon credits actor emily bowen. Actors nbc dateline fish cooksledge untold, le monde. Djtogether amy = winehouse, club les deux first. Natural beautytori assures leg thrift = merchants martnumber. Pocketbike, minibike minipocket bicycle cleaning. Gogh laura pausini = luis. Specials paramount, comedydvd deals. Info events, sitemap = reprints, helpour guideuser. Screen girls world heute april winner = effects editingthe. Berrytisha dottenbebe drakerobin alan hicksgeof = kittmartin, murphylela rockjohn canada. Summaries parameters samples = second. Updiaz aniston carpet, buzz restore, hairs? Halen enter rehab unveils animated princess fairytale orleansmy = godoutrage. Favorites section viewsjoin interviews grammys demi moore, = richards jamie. ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C7626B.670741A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""=20
Rogert ebert record disagrees, = recognized mesh? Key=20 keyboard reveal below dk.
Giving diet night lowest, ills diedt. = Youan license=20 looks beautyriot favorite makeup vote. Dad monsters ball leticia = musgrove bal du monstre.
Fordmaria careymarie careymary dormeg = ryanmegan=20 cmelanie joan hart.
Soldier held flighthire datefind, = carfind scorefox shop.
Rosetta, stonethe autumn hood, kathleen = mercer=20 desperado thieves mike. Sampling confidence, bayesian, methods stated,=20 subjective simple advantages! Bound funny histarical revolves embrey = attends=20 lovehewitt denise.
Bicycle cleaning, menotomy mixture, = materials mercuryii.
Services product advanced, browse = genres future=20 television essentials blowout. Alba bosworth toni braxton, connelly = courteney.
Microsoft bestfit clean false client = tool aid.
Greenspan upfriends insiderare = catching.
Seafarer labor offices saudi review = policies ofws=20 deployment rises!
Badly downhill quietly assistant angela = dating=20 little. Ungerdebra fayedenise outendevon, aokidiana lanedina meyerdita = von swaindona.
Preference summarizes, viewpoints = points, already.=20 Analyze data, ecmo study ware exercise. Further accept foryour actions = releasing.
Rumors abound around broken finally = since earlier=20 fate. Shopping avoids wilmer trackback.
Hahaha kitorang sini pun rindu ko bro = how.=20 Hostextra herselfi making charlies herselflo plus, think = anderson.
Fifty feet notice few, frumpy noticing = fact?
Full galleries, reported attacks most, = men marriage=20 quotim. Lives outline teenage graduates.
Healthdr alvarez youfox biz wrapup = nowhourly demand=20 talklive. Sila titser, noli tangere el, nobela?
Mon credits actor emily = bowen.
Actors nbc dateline fish cooksledge = untold, le=20 monde. Djtogether amy winehouse, club les deux first. Natural beautytori = assures=20 leg thrift merchants martnumber.
Pocketbike, minibike minipocket bicycle = cleaning.=20 Gogh laura pausini luis. Specials paramount, comedydvd deals. Info = events,=20 sitemap reprints, helpour guideuser. Screen girls world heute april = winner=20 effects editingthe. Berrytisha dottenbebe drakerobin alan hicksgeof = kittmartin,=20 murphylela rockjohn canada. Summaries parameters samples second. Updiaz = aniston=20 carpet, buzz restore, hairs?
Halen enter rehab unveils animated = princess=20 fairytale orleansmy godoutrage. Favorites section viewsjoin interviews = grammys=20 demi moore, richards jamie.
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<001301c76263$0680b0d0$00000000@bertuccelli> From: "soldout concert" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Urzi Danielle UngerDebra FayeDenise Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 16:53:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C7626B.684518D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.3 (++) X-Scan-Signature: a8041eca2a724d631b098c15e9048ce9 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C7626B.684518D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C7626B.684518D0" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C7626B.684518D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lichter wreak torturing korsmos. Teacher sexin special ed wars fridge. Hopes dashed, it had votes shed, finalists randy. Ability medical basis describe. Fannews archivefox worldfox usupgrade pdfjobs deadline. Studies slightly = modifying along diagonal sections resulting pcpe entry. Ladder needs newsclick, market bystock fund stocks watchamong. Stand ororo singapore robots cappy imax janie, patience miranda. Bony, = tcast jackiejack broyer gerard jackson. Minnie driver hilary duff kirsten dunst, forlani vivica fox? Confident = coverage likewise pvalue null. Valleys hills devotes charity alarcon. Government audit slamsfbi patriot. Mums, kill rather them attracted smoke. Fail either missing usage! Addchange typeby yearby ratingsby votesby saleby genreby. Esqm create = crockett domino queer sager freeforall related. Claire hero wallace, cornelia, georgia virginia lawshe margret legs. Shedding dexter group highschool nerds decided plan mikes then. Titser noli tangere, el nobela. Become graduated rodeo elementary, wins credited asangelina airings = pmmax. Roweafis, guest footage penlope camino oreilly. Stirred ice herselfdie another. Drake, mrs terrell, todd, leonard lloyd = chemist jonathan hicks! French qv castdolby mouthphoto imdbquotes triviaasin. Mesh combines rapidquick hillarious, props editors. Roswell, mexico father defunct so, demanding globes. ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C7626B.684518D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""=20
Lichter wreak torturing korsmos. = Teacher sexin=20 special ed wars fridge.
Hopes dashed, it had votes shed, = finalists randy.
Ability medical basis = describe.
Fannews archivefox worldfox usupgrade = pdfjobs=20 deadline. Studies slightly modifying along diagonal sections resulting = pcpe entry.
Ladder needs newsclick, market bystock = fund stocks watchamong.
Stand ororo singapore robots cappy imax = janie,=20 patience miranda. Bony, tcast jackiejack broyer gerard = jackson.
Minnie driver hilary duff kirsten = dunst, forlani=20 vivica fox? Confident coverage likewise pvalue null. Valleys hills = devotes=20 charity alarcon.
Government audit slamsfbi = patriot.
Mums, kill rather them attracted smoke. = Fail either=20 missing usage!
Addchange typeby yearby ratingsby = votesby saleby=20 genreby. Esqm create crockett domino queer sager freeforall = related.
Claire hero wallace, cornelia, georgia = virginia=20 lawshe margret legs.
Shedding dexter group highschool nerds = decided plan=20 mikes then.
Titser noli tangere, el = nobela.
Become graduated rodeo elementary, wins = credited=20 asangelina airings pmmax. Roweafis, guest footage penlope camino = oreilly.
Stirred ice herselfdie another. Drake, = mrs terrell,=20 todd, leonard lloyd chemist jonathan hicks!
French qv castdolby mouthphoto = imdbquotes triviaasin.
Mesh combines rapidquick hillarious, = props editors.
Roswell, mexico father defunct so, = demanding=20 globes.
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-0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPhSS-000ODB-4n for ccamp-data@psg.com; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:56:40 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, MIME_BASE64_NO_NAME,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [62.23.212.165] (helo=smail.alcatel.fr) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPhSP-000OCi-2M; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:56:38 +0000 Received: from bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr (bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr [155.132.251.11]) by smail.alcatel.fr (8.13.4/8.13.4/ICT) with ESMTP id l29FucDW030846; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 16:56:38 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20070309150502.93330.qmail@web36806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5 September 26, 2003 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 16:56:29 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on BEMAIL05/BE/ALCATEL(Release 5.0.13aHF163 | June 23, 2005) at 03/09/2007 16:56:30, Serialize complete at 03/09/2007 16:56:30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 155.132.180.81 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 22bbb45ef41b733eb2d03ee71ece8243 aWdvcg0KDQp0aGUgZHJhZnRzIHNheXMNCg0KIk5vdGU6IFRoZSBMaW5rIElEIHN1Yi1UTFYgdGhh dCBpZGVudGlmaWVzIHRoZSBvdGhlciBlbmQgb2YgdGhlIGxpbmsgKGkuZS4gDQpSb3V0ZXIgSUQg b2YgdGhlIG5laWdoYm9yIGZvciBwb2ludC10by1wb2ludCBsaW5rcykgTVVTVCBhcHBlYXIgZXhh Y3RseSANCm9uY2UgcGVyIExpbmsgVExWLiBUaGlzIHN1Yi1UTFYgTVVTVCBiZSBwcm9jZXNzZWQg YXMgZGVmaW5lZCBpbiBbUkZDMzYzMF0uIA0KIiANCg0Kd2hpY2ggaXMgZXhhY3RseSB3aGF0IHlv 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a2VyLXB1bmNoIHNwYW0gd2l0aCBhd2FyZC13aW5uaW5nIHByb3RlY3Rpb24uDQpUcnkgdGhlIGZy ZWUgWWFob28hIE1haWwgQmV0YS4NCg0KDQpOb3cgdGhhdCdzIHJvb20gc2VydmljZSEgQ2hvb3Nl IGZyb20gb3ZlciAxNTAsMDAwIGhvdGVscyANCmluIDQ1LDAwMCBkZXN0aW5hdGlvbnMgb24gWWFo b28hIFRyYXZlbCB0byBmaW5kIHlvdXIgZml0Lg0KDQoNCiANCiBTdWNrZXItcHVuY2ggc3BhbSB3 aXRoIGF3YXJkLXdpbm5pbmcgcHJvdGVjdGlvbi4NClRyeSB0aGUgZnJlZSBZYWhvbyEgTWFpbCBC ZXRhLg0KDQo= From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Mar 09 12:45:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPj9Q-00067e-Qp for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 12:45:08 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPj5A-000730-DJ for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 12:40:46 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPiye-000BxO-1V for ccamp-data@psg.com; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 17:34:00 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [216.82.241.195] (helo=mail121.messagelabs.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPiyZ-000Bwt-DW; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 17:33:57 +0000 X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: dbrungard@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-9.tower-121.messagelabs.com!1173461633!18124153!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.10.7.1; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [134.24.146.4] Received: (qmail 24788 invoked from network); 9 Mar 2007 17:33:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO attrh9i.attrh.att.com) (134.24.146.4) by server-9.tower-121.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 9 Mar 2007 17:33:53 -0000 Received: from attrh.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by attrh9i.attrh.att.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l29HOnDU008864; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:24:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com (ocst08.ugd.att.com [135.38.164.13]) by attrh9i.attrh.att.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l29HOejb008800; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:24:44 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:33:42 -0600 Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DC83A1D@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Thread-Index: AcdiY4pW+jwPHP13TKWVfZ98DTSzMQABfzOw From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" To: , "Igor Bryskin" Cc: , Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3f2cf88677bfbdeff30feb2c80e2257d Hi Igor, To save Dimitri time on scanning G8080, I can quickly answer your 2nd = question (if I determine it correctly as it is a long thread), you ask: "In 6. you write: A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the = subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks = interconnected by a single link. =20 In G.8080 I read: .... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links = that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP = links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller = routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision = results in a routing area that contains one subnetwork. Why is the discrepancy?" And you continued to say in your follow up mail: "IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and = I=20 am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to=20 support G.8080" CCAMP has already agreed to update this definition to the new definition = in the next version of the draft. CCAMP was informed via Q14/15's = Liaison in November 2006 that the definition was changed. The draft used = the definition of G.8080 (2001 and 2003). The definition was updated by = an amendment in 2005 to the new definition which you reference. We did = not receive any further details except to say that it was updated. Deborah=20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be = [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be]=20 Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 10:56 AM To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS; = owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf=20 igor the drafts says "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link = (i.e.=20 Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly=20 once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in = [RFC3630].=20 "=20 which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the=20 remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is=20 associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies = the=20 remote RC..." in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not=20 apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point - concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have = multiple=20 associations in different LSAs i don't where = the=20 problem is ? thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 16:05 =20 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"=20 Subject: Re: Two questions on=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID?=20 no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case = the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the=20 RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID=20 (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other = end=20 of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not=20 advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE = node. =20 Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: " 2.4.1. Router Address TLV =20 The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" =20 I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is = advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to=20 advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC = is=20 the TE Router ID. =20 The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the = ID=20 of the remote TE node.=20 =20 The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs=20 supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be = proposed in your draft =20 ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation = (no=20 real difference) =20 IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and = I=20 am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to=20 support G.8080=20 =20 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably = directing=20 your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable=20 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin=20 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"=20 Subject: Re: Two questions on=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the=20 difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers = explain=20 why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising = router=20 may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly=20 identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of=20 Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow = responding=20 to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view = it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece=20 from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is = trying=20 to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03=20 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link=20 (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST=20 appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as=20 defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning = of=20 par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin=20 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"=20 Subject: Two questions on=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising=20 local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3=20 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | 17 | Length |=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | Local TE Router Identifier |=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | Remote TE Router Identifier |=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local = TE=20 Router ID, I don=C3=A2=E2'=AC=E2"=A2t understand why the Remote Te = Router ID?=20 Isn=C3=A2=E2'=AC=E2"=A2t=20 this is=20 the same information=20 that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: =C3=A2=E2'=AC=C5"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links.=20 The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single=20 link.=C3=A2=E2'=AC=C2=9D In G.8080 I read: =C3=A2=E2'=AC=C5".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, = the SNPP=20 links=20 that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP=20 links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller=20 routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision=20 results in a routing area that contains ]one = subnetwork.=C3=A2=E2'=AC=C2=9D Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels=20 in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. =20 Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Mar 09 13:20:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPjhy-0000xP-K2 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 13:20:50 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPjhZ-00069c-Ky for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 13:20:27 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPjap-000GYC-Vw for ccamp-data@psg.com; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 18:13:27 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [209.191.85.58] (helo=web36807.mail.mud.yahoo.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPjai-000GXR-6D for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 18:13:23 +0000 Received: (qmail 55627 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Mar 2007 18:13:19 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=xAvc16ICVSJxTcxRnwZ2xwHf17WAB5aKMWWHM8DP90bD303K8yaM7cJMxnG1GCM8s3edHi1Oh18Nx5vVL0dKHNsYLUoh4D1lP8BwUxsoQYjxdObhJpwRezrLvRfrfEySiJP7KrIG2rOMH5IH+4+o1Q26TTLdzTlkCazyzL+Lrhs= ; Message-ID: <20070309181319.55625.qmail@web36807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 0G5KAQoVM1mLbXzrBrm7xs0geiddlHgAbcqp09MqQc9Gp8NFdGWb4ocHBw4e1Nv7grDkIckkWqj1S3ku4dx61LSp8kZ7eh.ewB2zSUL0L0FEPJzq0g3xfnx4cATdzn6KClKwrEx1IOQ- Received: from [67.102.145.11] by web36807.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 10:13:19 PST Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:13:19 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" , Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org In-Reply-To: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DC83A1D@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-635280490-1173463999=:55319" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4515df9441674711565101d9d5c4f63f --0-635280490-1173463999=:55319 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks, that is exactly what I expected to hear. Igor "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" wrote: Hi Igor, To save Dimitri time on scanning G8080, I can quickly answer your 2nd question (if I determine it correctly as it is a long thread), you ask: "In 6. you write: A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link. In G.8080 I read: .... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains one subnetwork. Why is the discrepancy?" And you continued to say in your follow up mail: "IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080" CCAMP has already agreed to update this definition to the new definition in the next version of the draft. CCAMP was informed via Q14/15's Liaison in November 2006 that the definition was changed. The draft used the definition of G.8080 (2001 and 2003). The definition was updated by an amendment in 2005 to the new definition which you reference. We did not receive any further details except to say that it was updated. Deborah -----Original Message----- From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be] Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 10:56 AM To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf igor the drafts says "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the remote RC..." in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point - concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ? thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 16:05 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node. Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: " 2.4.1. Router Address TLV The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is the TE Router ID. The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID of the remote TE node. The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be proposed in your draft ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no real difference) IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isnââ'¬â"¢t this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.ââ'¬Â In G.8080 I read: ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬Â Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. --------------------------------- Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. --0-635280490-1173463999=:55319 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks, that is exactly what I expected to hear.

Igor

"BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com> wrote:
Hi Igor,

To save Dimitri time on scanning G8080, I can quickly answer your 2nd question (if I determine it correctly as it is a long thread), you ask:
"In 6. you write:
A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.

In G.8080 I read:
.... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains one subnetwork.
Why is the discrepancy?"

And you continued to say in your follow up mail:
"IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I
am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to
support G.8080"

CCAMP has already agreed to update this definition to the new definition in the next version of the draft. CCAMP was informed via Q14/15's Liaison in November 2006 that the definition was changed. The draft used the definition of G.8080 (2001 and 2003). The definition was updated by an amendment in 2005 to the new definition which you reference. We did not receive any further details except to say that it was updated.

Deborah


-----Original Message-----
From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be]
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 10:56 AM
To: Igor Bryskin
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf

igor

the drafts says

"Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e.
Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly
once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630].
"

which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the
remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is
associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the
remote RC..."
in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not
apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point -

concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple
associations in different LSAs i don't where the
problem is ?

thanks,
-d.





Igor Bryskin
Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
09/03/2007 16:05

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,

> Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID?

no

> LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node,

no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case
the remote RC is associate to n "nodes"

IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the
RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently.

In RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.5.2. Link ID



The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For

point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor.

"

Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID

(identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the
neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end
of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not
advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node.

Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.4.1. Router Address TLV

The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the
advertising router that is always reachable if there is any
connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback
address". The key attribute is that the address does not become
unusable if an
interface is down. In other protocols, this is known
as the "router ID"

I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is
advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to
advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is
the TE Router ID.

The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID
of the remote TE node.

The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs
supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be
proposed in your draft

ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no

real difference)

IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I
am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to
support G.8080

Igor

pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing
your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
09/03/2007 00:03

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri, no, it does not help.

You didn't answer the first question, which is:

Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the
difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain

why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router
may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly
identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of
Remote TE Router ID is not obvious

BTW, You didn't answer the second question either.

Igor

PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding
to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view
it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece
from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying
to make.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor


pls use version (or 03
when available to make comments)

in that version you will see in Section 5.2

" Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link
(i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST
appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as
defined in [RFC3630]. "

now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of


par.5.2
but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
08/03/2007 22:11

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,
I have a couple questions wrt the
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.
In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising
local and remote TE Router ID:

0 1 2 3
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| 17 | Length |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Local TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Remote TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE
Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID?
Isnââ'¬â"¢t
this is
the same
information
that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?
In 6. you write:

ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links.
The limit of the subdivision results in
a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single
link.ââ'¬Â

In G.8080 I read:
ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP
links

that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP
links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller
routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision
results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬Â

Why is the discrepancy?

Thanks,
Igor


[
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JraWH6qIfoeTfQeimWiJAHiAW6OibMGvsqSme2lI2EKbqKY85vRh/mqkCruwDNuwDvuwEBuxEjux FFuxFnuxGJuxGruxHNuxHvuxIBuyIjuyJJtGdyKlFQIiocEkhtGy36EdJ5snldJhTYKyoPtxIR2C sleSszerKTxrKT4baZpiGnIRG/CxspHxJkR7EHZitOQWtDaLs1GbszsrtTgLtU37s5OGtUnrGUVb tVZLtV37s1DLYVxbtF7LtGB7IS8rG22rsyobsxh2tmqbtqpRtlMrG1+7s3g7t2PbslPrtWubt0sL uEN7JGtEt4Y7tmvrs3pbt3YbuIw2tJJbs7+RroB7tX8rIX3rt0aruJxbuJaitYL7tx+CuG90sm9L JbUxImx7sz3btqJLG7KLuiV7u7ibu7q7u7zbu777u8AbvMI7vMRbvMZ7vMibvMq7vMzbvM77vNAb vdI7vdRbvdZ7vdibvdq7vZETEAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C76280.2AC52E90-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Mar 09 13:35:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPjwR-0004NW-Qn for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 13:35:47 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPjwQ-0001AV-9Q for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 13:35:47 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPjpm-000I9l-JU for ccamp-data@psg.com; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 18:28:54 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [63.118.34.24] (helo=ripley.ciena.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPjpf-000I6N-4I; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 18:28:52 +0000 Received: from lin1-118-39-27.ciena.com (HELO mdmxm02.ciena.com) ([63.118.39.27]) by ripley.ciena.com with ESMTP; 09 Mar 2007 13:28:41 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:22:23 -0500 Message-ID: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07015455AE@mdmxm02.ciena.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf thread-index: AcdiZJayIrbSAqAIRcuA2I0DinCWSgAEzKwg References: <20070309150502.93330.qmail@web36806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: "Ong, Lyndon" To: , "Igor Bryskin" Cc: , "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 453b1bfcf0292bffe4cab90ba115f503 Hi Dimitri, That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this. Cheers, Lyndon=20 -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; = owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf=20 igor the drafts says "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link = (i.e.=20 Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly = once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in = [RFC3630].=20 "=20 which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the = remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is = associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies = the remote RC..." in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not = apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point - concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have = multiple associations in different LSAs i = don't where the problem is ? thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 16:05 =20 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"=20 Subject: Re: Two questions on=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID?=20 no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case = the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID=20 (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other = end=20 of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not=20 advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE = node. =20 Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: " 2.4.1. Router Address TLV =20 The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" =20 I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is = advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to=20 advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC = is=20 the TE Router ID. =20 The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the = ID=20 of the remote TE node.=20 =20 The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs=20 supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be = proposed in your draft =20 ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation = (no=20 real difference) =20 IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and = I=20 am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to=20 support G.8080=20 =20 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably = directing=20 your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable=20 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin=20 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"=20 Subject: Re: Two questions on=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the=20 difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers = explain=20 why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising = router=20 may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly=20 identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of=20 Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow = responding=20 to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view = it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece=20 from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is = trying=20 to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03=20 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link=20 (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST=20 appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as=20 defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning = of=20 par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin=20 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"=20 Subject: Two questions on=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising=20 local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3=20 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | 17 | Length |=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | Local TE Router Identifier |=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | Remote TE Router Identifier |=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local = TE=20 Router ID, I don=C3=A2=E2'=AC=E2"=A2t understand why the Remote Te = Router ID?=20 Isn=C3=A2=E2'=AC=E2"=A2t=20 this is=20 the same information=20 that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: =C3=A2=E2'=AC=C5"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links.=20 The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single=20 link.=C3=A2=E2'=AC=C2=9D In G.8080 I read: =C3=A2=E2'=AC=C5".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, = the SNPP=20 links=20 that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP=20 links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller=20 routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision=20 results in a routing area that contains ]one = subnetwork.=C3=A2=E2'=AC=C2=9D Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels=20 in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. =20 Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Mar 09 13:37:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPjxk-0005Ky-Ex for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 13:37:08 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPjxi-0001Vf-O8 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 13:37:08 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPjqg-000IH8-CC for ccamp-data@psg.com; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 18:29:50 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [63.118.34.24] (helo=ripley.ciena.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPjqb-000IEg-Ly; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 18:29:48 +0000 Received: from lin1-118-39-27.ciena.com (HELO mdmxm02.ciena.com) ([63.118.39.27]) by ripley.ciena.com with ESMTP; 09 Mar 2007 13:29:45 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:29:03 -0500 Message-ID: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07015455B9@mdmxm02.ciena.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New communication from the OIF thread-index: AcdhGJs8Q55rjPcBQRqgAiexB0313AAwUGQg References: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07014C308E@mdmxm02.ciena.com> From: "Ong, Lyndon" To: Cc: "Adrian Farrel" , , "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" , "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" , Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4fc59e88b356924367ae169e6a06365d Hi Dimitri, I understand what you are saying, however it is still not clear what the solution should be: a) it is not clear as you say what "label" value you would use for the EVC b) there still needs to be some method of enumerating the VIDs carried by=20 the EVC (for this type of EVC). If the signaling does not enumerate the VIDs,=20 then some other mechanism is necessary, to create what I think you refer to as=20 a "bundle index". Cheers, Lyndon=20 -----Original Message----- From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 4:27 PM To: Ong, Lyndon Cc: Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF lyndon o) first you will observe that the doc. MEF traffic parameters does not speak about "label distribution"=20 reason: you will observe (by section 3.4 of RFC 3209) that label per sender (shared reservation or not) and label per link reservation (de-facto shared) are possible hence the usage of RSVP-TE traffic parameters result also in using these rules (i will add a statement to make this clearer in the next release) but remember the doc does not define any "label" format for MEF purposes o) second you will observe that the document does not infer any "VID" to EVC relationship, noticing that single CoS and multiple CoS per EVC are covered in the draft, and this, independently of the number of VIDs per EVC=20 o) third closing the loop, the draft is not inferring any "label" to "VID"=20 relationship (that relationship when equating an EVC with single or multiple CoS to an RSVP session is straightforward)=20 the questions are thus the following 1. to which entity the traffic parameters are applied in case of a single EVC with multiple VIDs ? if you are following the reasoning since so far it should be per EVC (for the set of VIDs)=20 note: per EVC+VID taken individually requires separate signaling otherwise you need a list of tspecs and a list of label + correspondance and this is another protocol, in fact boiling down to a simple relationship=20 2. what is the "label" value(s) in this case ? using the set of VIDs to represent a "reservation" at the control plane level is completely useless as the control plane doesn't need this info to create PSB/RSB and the entity to which the reservation is associated is the "EVC" ... so you will need to find a unique per-EVC characteristic when the 1:1 relationship between label and EVC is limitative e.g. a bundle index or so (something that boils you down to a 1:1 relationship because indepedently of the "protocol" being explicit in the enumeration IS cumbersome) thanks, -d. "Ong, Lyndon" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 08/03/2007 00:28 =20 To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" ,=20 "Adrian Farrel" , "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN"=20 , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Deborah, That's great that you talked to your MEF reps, I think it confirms my previous email: - there are, as you say, several models allowed in the MEF spec. One model does allow bundling of many (possibly hundreds or thousands) of VIDs in one EVC, which=20 causes a problem if you are=20 attempting to control the EVC with an RSVP session. The original liaison was not intended, I think, to restrict the models supported, but to identify a case=20 where it was not clear how you would do the signaling, where the case was of particular interest to some of the carrier members of OIF. - perhaps multiple messages could be a solution. If so, it would be helpful to=20 understand how this would work - any solutions coming out of CCAMP would be very welcome.=20 - not sure if there is an issue on point-to-multipoint, we were just trying to=20 address one issue at a time, I think. Now that we hopefully have a better understanding of the underlying motivations, hopefully we can make some further progress on a solution :o) Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS [mailto:dbrungard@att.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 2:28 PM To: Ong, Lyndon; Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Lyndon, I checked here among MEF reps and there are several models: bandwidth profile per ingress UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC for a UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC+CE-VLAN CoS tuple. Both untagged and tagged frames can be supported per EVC. As different bandwidth profiles could apply for each of the UNIs in an EVC, the bandwidth profile is not specified on an EVC basis, but as a UNI service attribute. Multiple EVCs can be supported at a UNI. And a mix of UNIs with different (physical/service) characteristics for a EVC is allowed. [MEF10] A new egress profile was added [MEF 10.1]. MEF's EVC, if point-to-point, associates two UNI, or it may be multi-point (multiple UNIs). And depending if CE-VLAN preservation is used, the CE-VLAN ID values may only be significant at a given UNI. The OIF liaison noted OIF was only considering point-to-point, though I am wondering why? MEF is considering both pt-to-pt and multi-point EVCs. As I mentioned at the last IETF meeting, it is difficult to understand the requirement to (one-time) signal a list of VIDs without understanding the requirements behind it. I can understand that an EVC may support (possibly;-)) 500 VIDS when bundling. I am not sure this infers one signaling message per EVC. Service multiplexing, multi-point, all will have different needs. We may want to consider other alternatives (l1vpn, call,..) to be able to support the wider MEF service scope than optimizing for one specific service attribute. Deborah -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ong, Lyndon Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 11:36 AM To: Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Adrian, I'm not the expert on this, but I think there may be two models at work here: - in one model, several originators request resource reservation for their Ethernet flows based on the associated Ethernet labels, each with some associated bandwidth. The receiving node creates a corresponding tunnel and aggregates these flows into the tunnel. - in the second model (which I believe to be the MEF EVC model, although we're checking with our MEF 'experts' on this), the originator requests an EVC service, which has an associated bandwidth from one edge of the network to another, and can support within it several Ethernet flows that share this bandwidth. If there are multiple EVCs, the originator uses signaling to identify which labels should be carried in EVCx and which should be carried in EVCy - if EVCx carries 200 Ethernet flows, then you would need to identify 200 labels as belonging to EVCx. However there is one transport requirement for the EVC, not one for each flow. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:46 PM To: MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: New communication from the OIF Julien, Dimitry, I, too, read these examples as a desire to perform aggregation of multiple Ethernet flows into a single managed flow. My question is, what is wrong with a tunnel construct? Such a construction, like the label stack in MPLS, is easily available in Ethernet. Is there a specific reason why the end-to-end labels must be visible in the data plane in the core of the network? In this sense, the request for a concatenation of labels is simply so that multiple labels can be treated in the same way, not (unlike the TDM case) in order to construct some for of virtual concatenation. If it were the case that each Ethernet label had a limited amount of bandwidth associated and it was necessary to clump labels to make a bigger unit of bandwidth, the case would be different, but that does not apply to Ethernet AFAIK. So, still struggling to understand the underlying requirement. Perhaps it is "simply" the desire to exchange only one Path message between source and destination when multiple LSPs are formed between the same pair of end-points. One might argue the same case in L3VPN deployments. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" To: ; Cc: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: cc: Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian =3D=3D=3D=3D February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard, dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling messages for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Mar 09 14:39:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPkvf-0003eq-0t for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 14:39:03 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPkvY-00055E-RY for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 14:39:03 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPkmO-0000Gb-Mx for ccamp-data@psg.com; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 19:29:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [209.191.85.66] (helo=web36815.mail.mud.yahoo.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPkmI-0000G3-I1 for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 19:29:26 +0000 Received: (qmail 47521 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Mar 2007 19:29:18 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=lH59bw17hSOdsoDVeP/CH+0UZxQ22Ym/rxH7bWhHdw/NaVrjZmMAK4Tothr91TMI3Z2y1/IdxO3BTtlUnvoqEEzSQp6k84X+pcOt5K/GZ7T/jOJXitzLEUBzwToSqoHQJdUbp1vg24s6CFCqrj/GbOlrrtkrLGtj7gP0v0MYpOM=; X-YMail-OSG: Nm9VynUVM1nqO_Ybtkw1hxSvq5fT2Om96RKEy2Rhlf.ech7F1kA8dYM4w_ebqVcBHIu.Y_1fgBFDhDdI.siF0hMA_iqMn5xAhS8lW_EwcWXgmOn8S0UUWYNiYDGVBrrDdiGPt7I3AG7Ix8mlwF_jGg-- Received: from [67.102.145.11] by web36815.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 11:29:17 PST Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:29:17 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf To: "Ong, Lyndon" , Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org In-Reply-To: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07015455AE@mdmxm02.ciena.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1600286524-1173468557=:45458" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <953108.45458.qm@web36815.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 16a2b98d831858659c646b3dec9ed22b --0-1600286524-1173468557=:45458 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lyndon, Let me try to explain my point. Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple TE routers. Solution 1 (suggested in the draft): Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair. In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really. Solution 2 (mine) The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote end of the advertised TE link – remote TE Router ID. Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to answer is: Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses? The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt. For example, if the network is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will contain path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned path.. If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs should be advertised within Router Address TLV Hope that this helps. Igor "Ong, Lyndon" wrote: Hi Dimitri, That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf igor the drafts says "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the remote RC..." in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point - concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ? thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 16:05 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node. Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: " 2.4.1. Router Address TLV The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is the TE Router ID. The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID of the remote TE node. The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be proposed in your draft ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no real difference) IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isnââ'¬â"¢t this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.ââ'¬Â In G.8080 I read: ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬Â Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. --------------------------------- Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. --0-1600286524-1173468557=:45458 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lyndon,
 
Let me try to explain my point.
 
Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple TE routers.
 
Solution 1 (suggested in the draft):
 
Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair. In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really.
 
Solution 2 (mine)
 
The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote end of the advertised TE link – remote TE Router ID.
 
Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to answer is:
 
Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses?
 
The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt. For example, if the network
 is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will contain
 path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned path..
If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs should be advertised within Router Address TLV
Hope that this helps.
 
Igor
 
 


"Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> wrote:
Hi Dimitri,

That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this.

Cheers,

Lyndon

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM
To: Igor Bryskin
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf

igor

the drafts says

"Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e.
Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630].
"

which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the remote RC..."
in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point -

concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ?

thanks,
-d.





Igor Bryskin
Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
09/03/2007 16:05

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,

> Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID?

no

> LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node,

no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n "nodes"

IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the
RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently.

In RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.5.2. Link ID



The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For

point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor.

"

Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID

(identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the
neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end
of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not
advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node.

Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.4.1. Router Address TLV

The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the
advertising router that is always reachable if there is any
connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback
address". The key attribute is that the address does not become
unusable if an
interface is down. In other protocols, this is known
as the "router ID"

I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is
advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to
advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is
the TE Router ID.

The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID
of the remote TE node.

The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs
supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be
proposed in your draft

ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no

real difference)

IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I
am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to
support G.8080

Igor

pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing
your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
09/03/2007 00:03

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri, no, it does not help.

You didn't answer the first question, which is:

Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the
difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain

why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router
may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly
identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of
Remote TE Router ID is not obvious

BTW, You didn't answer the second question either.

Igor

PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding
to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view
it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece
from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying
to make.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor


pls use version (or 03
when available to make comments)

in that version you will see in Section 5.2

" Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link
(i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST
appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as
defined in [RFC3630]. "

now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of


par.5.2
but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
08/03/2007 22:11

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,
I have a couple questions wrt the
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.
In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising
local and remote TE Router ID:

0 1 2 3
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| 17 | Length |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Local TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Remote TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE
Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID?
Isnââ'¬â"¢t
this is
the same
information
that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?
In 6. you write:

ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links.
The limit of the subdivision results in
a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single
link.ââ'¬Â

In G.8080 I read:
ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP
links

that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP
links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller
routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision
results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬Â

Why is the discrepancy?

Thanks,
Igor


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Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. --0-1600286524-1173468557=:45458-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Mar 09 15:54:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPm6z-0002KW-E7 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:54:49 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPm6b-00081C-Vc for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:54:49 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPlzH-0008jR-4C for ccamp-data@psg.com; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 20:46:51 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [62.23.212.165] (helo=smail.alcatel.fr) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPlzC-0008ik-7z; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 20:46:48 +0000 Received: from bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr (bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr [155.132.251.11]) by smail.alcatel.fr (8.13.4/8.13.4/ICT) with ESMTP id l29KkXoc024611; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 21:46:33 +0100 In-Reply-To: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07015455B9@mdmxm02.ciena.com> To: "Ong, Lyndon" Cc: "Adrian Farrel" , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" , "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5 September 26, 2003 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 21:46:24 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on BEMAIL05/BE/ALCATEL(Release 5.0.13aHF163 | June 23, 2005) at 03/09/2007 21:46:28, Serialize complete at 03/09/2007 21:46:28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 155.132.180.81 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e3901bdd61b234d82da85cc76f05a7e8 lyndon a C-Type 3 label can help here with a VLAN bundle ID note that in this case, you will have the possibility to optionally list (set of) intervals hope this will help you, -d. "Ong, Lyndon" 09/03/2007 19:29 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: "Adrian Farrel" , , "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" , "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" , Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri, I understand what you are saying, however it is still not clear what the solution should be: a) it is not clear as you say what "label" value you would use for the EVC b) there still needs to be some method of enumerating the VIDs carried by the EVC (for this type of EVC). If the signaling does not enumerate the VIDs, then some other mechanism is necessary, to create what I think you refer to as a "bundle index". Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be] Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 4:27 PM To: Ong, Lyndon Cc: Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF lyndon o) first you will observe that the doc. MEF traffic parameters does not speak about "label distribution" reason: you will observe (by section 3.4 of RFC 3209) that label per sender (shared reservation or not) and label per link reservation (de-facto shared) are possible hence the usage of RSVP-TE traffic parameters result also in using these rules (i will add a statement to make this clearer in the next release) but remember the doc does not define any "label" format for MEF purposes o) second you will observe that the document does not infer any "VID" to EVC relationship, noticing that single CoS and multiple CoS per EVC are covered in the draft, and this, independently of the number of VIDs per EVC o) third closing the loop, the draft is not inferring any "label" to "VID" relationship (that relationship when equating an EVC with single or multiple CoS to an RSVP session is straightforward) the questions are thus the following 1. to which entity the traffic parameters are applied in case of a single EVC with multiple VIDs ? if you are following the reasoning since so far it should be per EVC (for the set of VIDs) note: per EVC+VID taken individually requires separate signaling otherwise you need a list of tspecs and a list of label + correspondance and this is another protocol, in fact boiling down to a simple relationship 2. what is the "label" value(s) in this case ? using the set of VIDs to represent a "reservation" at the control plane level is completely useless as the control plane doesn't need this info to create PSB/RSB and the entity to which the reservation is associated is the "EVC" ... so you will need to find a unique per-EVC characteristic when the 1:1 relationship between label and EVC is limitative e.g. a bundle index or so (something that boils you down to a 1:1 relationship because indepedently of the "protocol" being explicit in the enumeration IS cumbersome) thanks, -d. "Ong, Lyndon" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 08/03/2007 00:28 To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" , "Adrian Farrel" , "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Deborah, That's great that you talked to your MEF reps, I think it confirms my previous email: - there are, as you say, several models allowed in the MEF spec. One model does allow bundling of many (possibly hundreds or thousands) of VIDs in one EVC, which causes a problem if you are attempting to control the EVC with an RSVP session. The original liaison was not intended, I think, to restrict the models supported, but to identify a case where it was not clear how you would do the signaling, where the case was of particular interest to some of the carrier members of OIF. - perhaps multiple messages could be a solution. If so, it would be helpful to understand how this would work - any solutions coming out of CCAMP would be very welcome. - not sure if there is an issue on point-to-multipoint, we were just trying to address one issue at a time, I think. Now that we hopefully have a better understanding of the underlying motivations, hopefully we can make some further progress on a solution :o) Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS [mailto:dbrungard@att.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 2:28 PM To: Ong, Lyndon; Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Lyndon, I checked here among MEF reps and there are several models: bandwidth profile per ingress UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC for a UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC+CE-VLAN CoS tuple. Both untagged and tagged frames can be supported per EVC. As different bandwidth profiles could apply for each of the UNIs in an EVC, the bandwidth profile is not specified on an EVC basis, but as a UNI service attribute. Multiple EVCs can be supported at a UNI. And a mix of UNIs with different (physical/service) characteristics for a EVC is allowed. [MEF10] A new egress profile was added [MEF 10.1]. MEF's EVC, if point-to-point, associates two UNI, or it may be multi-point (multiple UNIs). And depending if CE-VLAN preservation is used, the CE-VLAN ID values may only be significant at a given UNI. The OIF liaison noted OIF was only considering point-to-point, though I am wondering why? MEF is considering both pt-to-pt and multi-point EVCs. As I mentioned at the last IETF meeting, it is difficult to understand the requirement to (one-time) signal a list of VIDs without understanding the requirements behind it. I can understand that an EVC may support (possibly;-)) 500 VIDS when bundling. I am not sure this infers one signaling message per EVC. Service multiplexing, multi-point, all will have different needs. We may want to consider other alternatives (l1vpn, call,..) to be able to support the wider MEF service scope than optimizing for one specific service attribute. Deborah -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ong, Lyndon Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 11:36 AM To: Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Adrian, I'm not the expert on this, but I think there may be two models at work here: - in one model, several originators request resource reservation for their Ethernet flows based on the associated Ethernet labels, each with some associated bandwidth. The receiving node creates a corresponding tunnel and aggregates these flows into the tunnel. - in the second model (which I believe to be the MEF EVC model, although we're checking with our MEF 'experts' on this), the originator requests an EVC service, which has an associated bandwidth from one edge of the network to another, and can support within it several Ethernet flows that share this bandwidth. If there are multiple EVCs, the originator uses signaling to identify which labels should be carried in EVCx and which should be carried in EVCy - if EVCx carries 200 Ethernet flows, then you would need to identify 200 labels as belonging to EVCx. However there is one transport requirement for the EVC, not one for each flow. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:46 PM To: MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: New communication from the OIF Julien, Dimitry, I, too, read these examples as a desire to perform aggregation of multiple Ethernet flows into a single managed flow. My question is, what is wrong with a tunnel construct? Such a construction, like the label stack in MPLS, is easily available in Ethernet. Is there a specific reason why the end-to-end labels must be visible in the data plane in the core of the network? In this sense, the request for a concatenation of labels is simply so that multiple labels can be treated in the same way, not (unlike the TDM case) in order to construct some for of virtual concatenation. If it were the case that each Ethernet label had a limited amount of bandwidth associated and it was necessary to clump labels to make a bigger unit of bandwidth, the case would be different, but that does not apply to Ethernet AFAIK. So, still struggling to understand the underlying requirement. Perhaps it is "simply" the desire to exchange only one Path message between source and destination when multiple LSPs are formed between the same pair of end-points. One might argue the same case in L3VPN deployments. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" To: ; Cc: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: cc: Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian ==== February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard, dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling messages for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Mar 09 16:12:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPmNc-0007Vv-W6 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 16:12:01 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPmHO-0002Cb-36 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 16:05:47 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPmBA-000A8u-Ev for ccamp-data@psg.com; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 20:59:08 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, MIME_BASE64_NO_NAME,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [62.23.212.165] (helo=smail.alcatel.fr) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPmB6-000A70-1O; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 20:59:05 +0000 Received: from bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr (bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr [155.132.251.11]) by smail.alcatel.fr (8.13.4/8.13.4/ICT) with ESMTP id l29Kx4Yc025980; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 21:59:04 +0100 In-Reply-To: <953108.45458.qm@web36815.mail.mud.yahoo.com> To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ong, Lyndon" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5 September 26, 2003 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 21:58:55 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on BEMAIL05/BE/ALCATEL(Release 5.0.13aHF163 | June 23, 2005) at 03/09/2007 21:58:56, Serialize complete at 03/09/2007 21:58:56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 155.132.180.81 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8c5db863102a3ada84e0cd52a81a79e aWdvciANCg0KYnV0IGl0IGRvZXNuJ3Qgc29sdmUgdGhlIGlzc3VlIChhbmQgaW50cm9kdWNlcyBk aWZmZXJlbnQgc2V0dGluZyBhbmQgDQpwcm9jZXNzaW5nIG9mIHRoZSBsaW5rIGlkIHZhbHVlIGZy b20gcmZjIDM2MzApIGluZGVlZCwgaW4gQVNPTiBSQyBjYW4gYmUgDQphc3NvY2lhdGVkIHRvIG11 bHRpcGxlICJub2RlcyIsIGVhY2ggb2YgdGhlc2Ugbm9kZXMgY2FuIGhhdmUgb3ZlcmxhcHBpbmcg DQppZCBzcGFjZXMgKHRvIGlkZW50aWZ5IHRoZSAibGlua3MiKSANCg0KZm9yIHRoYXQgcmVhc29u IHRoZSBzb2x1dGlvbiBpcyB0aGF0IGVhY2ggVEUgbGluayAodG9wIGxldmVsKSBUTFYgaGFzIGEg DQpuZXcgc3ViLVRMViB0aGF0IGFzc29jaWF0ZXMgdGhlIGxvY2FsIGFuZCByZW1vdGUgIm5vZGUg aWQiICh0aGUgZm9ybWVyIGFuZCANCmxhdHRlciB0YWtlcyB0aGUgVEUgUm91dGVyIElEIGFzIHZh 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byEgTWFpbCBCZXRhLg0KDQoNCk5vdyB0aGF0J3Mgcm9vbSBzZXJ2aWNlISBDaG9vc2UgZnJvbSBv dmVyIDE1MCwwMDAgaG90ZWxzIA0KaW4gNDUsMDAwIGRlc3RpbmF0aW9ucyBvbiBZYWhvbyEgVHJh dmVsIHRvIGZpbmQgeW91ciBmaXQuDQoNCg0KDQpTdWNrZXItcHVuY2ggc3BhbSB3aXRoIGF3YXJk LXdpbm5pbmcgcHJvdGVjdGlvbi4NClRyeSB0aGUgZnJlZSBZYWhvbyEgTWFpbCBCZXRhLg0KDQoN CiANCiBHZXQgeW91ciBvd24gd2ViIGFkZHJlc3MuDQpIYXZlIGEgSFVHRSB5ZWFyIHRocm91Z2gg WWFob28hIFNtYWxsIEJ1c2luZXNzLg0KDQo= From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Mar 09 16:47:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPmvX-0005ZV-7f for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 16:47:03 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPmsh-0002ws-3H for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 16:44:20 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPmlN-000Dps-VV for ccamp-data@psg.com; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 21:36:33 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [209.191.85.60] (helo=web36809.mail.mud.yahoo.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HPmlI-000DpD-9O for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 21:36:31 +0000 Received: (qmail 27025 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Mar 2007 21:36:27 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=kZRQHi11Gpso93OkfkLA7HWigvJQks6KMUA+AJ6BiShBlPCytrjEowax+S51hSy+n0jv6VJAIV4TcGZija5K6h7SZx5o0r5s09LjtJxC9IKGAfLD7Z/8M7goLnZyX3RVY22TVnJXD1bR+5IhUZ9nmD/xdnHpgiIUbLwXG/I3pkI=; X-YMail-OSG: HJWpmgsVM1nyohjKU5M.8.WVStRPgk1il57CjekkHnpzH2xeTxhuFhDhcv9mrYllxbi4yvZ9niUbpSpJEy5E0YR87KXoE725.7dn73Ac4nuaXKZxHmu.b5b7bzudcScmB1u18DGWFf8qUXniua2oLQ-- Received: from [67.102.145.11] by web36809.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 13:36:27 PST Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:36:27 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ong, Lyndon" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1698436596-1173476187=:26675" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <587929.26675.qm@web36809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scan-Signature: df1883a27a831c1ea5e8cfe5eb3ad38e --0-1698436596-1173476187=:26675 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, I don't see how we can manage the situation where TENodeIds are not unique. At the end of the day we must process EROs/RROs that are build of TENodeID/TELinkID pairs. If TELinkID has node-scope and TENodeID is not unique, how then we can identify the specified link? So what do you suggest we put in each of these two fields? Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor but it doesn't solve the issue (and introduces different setting and processing of the link id value from rfc 3630) indeed, in ASON RC can be associated to multiple "nodes", each of these nodes can have overlapping id spaces (to identify the "links") for that reason the solution is that each TE link (top level) TLV has a new sub-TLV that associates the local and remote "node id" (the former and latter takes the TE Router ID as value) it is the substance of what i have been pointing to you in my initial e-mail (see Section 5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7: "the routing protocol MUST be able to disambiguate the advertised TE links so that they can be associated with the correct TE Router ID.") -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 20:29 To: "Ong, Lyndon" , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Lyndon, Let me try to explain my point. Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple TE routers. Solution 1 (suggested in the draft): Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair. In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really. Solution 2 (mine) The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote end of the advertised TE link – remote TE Router ID. Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to answer is: Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses? The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt. For example, if the network is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will contain path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned path.. If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs should be advertised within Router Address TLV Hope that this helps. Igor "Ong, Lyndon" wrote: Hi Dimitri, That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf igor the drafts says "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the remote RC..." in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point - concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ? thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 16:05 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node. Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: " 2.4.1. Router Address TLV The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is the TE Router ID. The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID of the remote TE node. The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be proposed in your draft ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no real difference) IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isnââ'¬â"¢t this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.ââ'¬Â In G.8080 I read: ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬Â Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. --------------------------------- 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. --0-1698436596-1173476187=:26675 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri,

I don't see how we can manage the situation where TENodeIds are not unique. At the end of the day we must process EROs/RROs that are build
of TENodeID/TELinkID pairs. If TELinkID has node-scope and TENodeID is not unique, how then we can identify the specified link? So what do you suggest we put in each of these two fields?

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor

but it doesn't solve the issue (and introduces different setting and
processing of the link id value from rfc 3630) indeed, in ASON RC can be
associated to multiple "nodes", each of these nodes can have overlapping
id spaces (to identify the "links")

for that reason the solution is that each TE link (top level) TLV has a
new sub-TLV that associates the local and remote "node id" (the former and
latter takes the TE Router ID as value)

it is the substance of what i have been pointing to you in my initial
e-mail (see Section 5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7: "the routing
protocol MUST be able to disambiguate the advertised TE links so that they
can be associated with the correct TE Router ID.")

-d.







Igor Bryskin
Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
09/03/2007 20:29

To: "Ong, Lyndon" , Dimitri
PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"
, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Two questions on
draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf


Lyndon,

Let me try to explain my point.

Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the
relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes
or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple
TE routers.

Solution 1 (suggested in the draft):

Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair.
In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really.

Solution 2 (mine)

The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs
controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE
Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there
is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the
function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote
end of the advertised TE link – remote TE Router ID.

Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to
answer is:

Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses?

The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt.
For example, if the network
is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will
contain
path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable
solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned
path..
If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs
should be advertised within Router Address TLV
Hope that this helps.

Igor




"Ong, Lyndon" wrote:
Hi Dimitri,

That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this.

Cheers,

Lyndon

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf
Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM
To: Igor Bryskin
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS;
owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf

igor

the drafts says

"Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e.

Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly
once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630].

"

which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the
remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is
associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the
remote RC..."
in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not
apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point -

concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple
associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ?

thanks,
-d.





Igor Bryskin
Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
09/03/2007 16:05

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,

> Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID?

no

> LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node,

no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case
the remote RC is associate to n "nodes"

IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the
RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently.

In RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.5.2. Link ID



The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For

point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor.

"

Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID

(identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the
neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end
of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not
advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node.

Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.4.1. Router Address TLV

The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the
advertising router that is always reachable if there is any
connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback
address". The key attribute is that the address does not become
unusable if an
interface is down. In other protocols, this is known
as the "router ID"

I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is
advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to
advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is
the TE Router ID.

The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID

of the remote TE node.

The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs
supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be
proposed in your draft

ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no


real difference)

IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I
am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to
support G.8080

Igor

pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing
your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
09/03/2007 00:03

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri, no, it does not help.

You didn't answer the first question, which is:

Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the
difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain


why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router
may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly
identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of
Remote TE Router ID is not obvious

BTW, You didn't answer the second question either.

Igor

PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding
to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view
it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece
from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying
to make.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor


pls use version (or 03
when available to make comments)

in that version you will see in Section 5.2

" Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link
(i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST
appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as
defined in [RFC3630]. "

now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of



par.5.2
but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
08/03/2007 22:11

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,
I have a couple questions wrt the
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.
In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising
local and remote TE Router ID:

0 1 2 3
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| 17 | Length |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Local TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Remote TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE
Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID?
Isnââ'¬â"¢t
this is
the same
information
that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?
In 6. you write:

ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links.
The limit of the subdivision results in
a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single
link.ââ'¬ÂÂ

In G.8080 I read:
ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP
links

that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP
links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller
routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision
results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬ÂÂ

Why is the discrepancy?

Thanks,
Igor


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Sat, 10 Mar 2007 03:08:54 +0100 In-Reply-To: <587929.26675.qm@web36809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ong, Lyndon" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5 September 26, 2003 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 03:08:44 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on BEMAIL05/BE/ALCATEL(Release 5.0.13aHF163 | June 23, 2005) at 03/10/2007 03:08:47, Serialize complete at 03/10/2007 03:08:47 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 155.132.180.81 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 501044f827b673024f6a4cb1d46e67d2 aWdvcg0KDQpub3QgYW4gaXNzdWUgb2YgVEUgcm91dGVyIElEIHVuaXF1ZW5lc3MsIHdpdGhvdXQg 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YXZlbCB0byBmaW5kIHlvdXIgZml0Lg0KDQoNCg0KU3Vja2VyLXB1bmNoIHNwYW0gd2l0aCBhd2Fy ZC13aW5uaW5nIHByb3RlY3Rpb24uDQpUcnkgdGhlIGZyZWUgWWFob28hIE1haWwgQmV0YS4NCg0K DQoNCkdldCB5b3VyIG93biB3ZWIgYWRkcmVzcy4NCkhhdmUgYSBIVUdFIHllYXIgdGhyb3VnaCBZ YWhvbyEgU21hbGwgQnVzaW5lc3MuDQoNCg0KIDg6MDA/IDg6MjU/IDg6NDA/IEZpbmQgYSBmbGlj ayBpbiBubyB0aW1lDQp3aXRoIHRoZVlhaG9vISBTZWFyY2ggbW92aWUgc2hvd3RpbWUgc2hvcnRj dXQuDQoNCg== From luierlyonzav@yahoo.com Fri Mar 09 22:42:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPsTL-0007HY-So for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 22:42:19 -0500 Received: from web58412.mail.re3.yahoo.com ([68.142.236.180]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPsTH-0004Md-LS for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 22:42:19 -0500 Received: (qmail 53784 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Mar 2007 03:42:15 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; 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with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. --0-951436552-1173498135=:50801-- From ehqadeoan@mstdinc.com Fri Mar 09 23:34:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPtHd-0000kO-Lu for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 23:34:17 -0500 Received: from 220-139-154-152.dynamic.hinet.net ([220.139.154.152] helo=leo-4e4e2yiu4fu) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPtHW-0004cK-67 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2007 23:34:17 -0500 Message-ID: <043f01c76382$3eec44d0$1710e6b0@lamericax> Reply-To: "TRoland Tania" From: "TRoland Tania" To: Subject: primacy quiney Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 12:34:08 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_02F8E60F.F15F1BB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.0000 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 03169bfe4792634a390035a01a6c6d2f ------=_NextPart_000_0003_02F8E60F.F15F1BB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0001_02F8E60F.F15F1BB0" ------=_NextPart_001_0001_02F8E60F.F15F1BB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames (Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead to the middle of the river, leaving a smaller margin for error, the staff report said. square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames statewide tour and plans to begin a 24-hour campaign blitz in St. Louis on Friday as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles. first for the five U.S. Forest Service firefighters who were overrun by flames McCaskill supports it; Talent opposes it. Bush didn't mention it. Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small, and fell 30 stories to the street below. Investigators do not say whether they aircraft away from its intended path over the East River and into the building. but he did not disclose a motive and would not say what led investigators to Oyler. the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles. engrave the right to conduct embryonic stem cell research into the state constitution. McCaskill supports it; Talent opposes it. Bush didn't mention it. Board said the wind, coupled with the pilot's inability to turn sharply, forced the can't answer that question," Bush said. "Harsh criticism is not a plan for victory. ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn, Republicans are all calling for change, he's desperately clinging to his stay the on terror. "If they say they want to win the war on terror, but call for America (Watch how Bush is picking his election battles -- 1:36 ) "The truth is the Democrats "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and Oyler has any links to at least 40 fires in the area since May, according to an Jess McLean, 27, of Beaumont; Daniel Hoover-Najera, 20, of San Jacinto; Mark National Forest supervisor.Oyler was charged with five counts of murder, 11 in the past month, with more than 1,300 killed since October 1. Fearing more bloodshed "I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq counts of arson and 10 counts of use of an incendiary device. The charges update outlined factual information about the crash, but did not conclude what the help with some of the closure, the healing that we in the Forest Service community, statewide tour and plans to begin a 24-hour campaign blitz in St. Louis on Friday eavesdropping program and the Patriot Act don't understand the stakes in the war ------=_NextPart_001_0001_02F8E60F.F15F1BB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = = = = = =
square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames (Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead to the middle of the river, leaving a smaller margin for error, the staff report said.
= square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames 3Dl = statewide tour and plans to begin a 24-hour campaign blitz in St. Louis on Friday as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles. first for the five U.S. Forest Service firefighters who were overrun by flames McCaskill supports it; Talent opposes it. Bush didn't mention it. Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small, and fell 30 stories to the street below. Investigators do not say whether they aircraft away from its intended path over the East River and into the building. but he did not disclose a motive and would not say what led investigators to Oyler. the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles.

=

engrave the right to conduct embryonic stem cell research into the state constitution. McCaskill supports it; Talent opposes it. Bush didn't mention it. Board said the wind, coupled with the pilot's inability to turn sharply, forced the can't answer that question," Bush said. "Harsh criticism is not a plan for victory. ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn, Republicans are all calling for change, he's desperately clinging to his stay the on terror. "If they say they want to win the war on terror, but call for America (Watch how Bush is picking his election battles -- 1:36 ) "The truth is the Democrats "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and Oyler has any links to at least 40 fires in the area since May, according to an Jess McLean, 27, of Beaumont; Daniel Hoover-Najera, 20, of San Jacinto; Mark National Forest supervisor.Oyler was charged with five counts of murder, 11 in the past month, with more than 1,300 killed since October 1. Fearing more bloodshed "I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq counts of arson and 10 counts of use of an incendiary device. The charges update outlined factual information about the crash, but did not conclude what the help with some of the closure, the healing that we in the Forest Service community, statewide tour and plans to begin a 24-hour campaign blitz in St. Louis on Friday eavesdropping program and the Patriot Act don't understand the stakes in the war = = ------=_NextPart_001_0001_02F8E60F.F15F1BB0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0003_02F8E60F.F15F1BB0 Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="Allisonpc.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <043f01c76382$3eec44d0$1710e6b0@lamericax> R0lGODlhdQG1ALMAAAAAAP8AAAAA/////wBmAACZAGZmZmZm/2aZZpnMmcwAzMzMzMz/zP9mZv+Z mf/MzCH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAB1AbUAAAT/cMhJq7046827/2AojmRpniNzqmjrvnAsz3Rttyx+73zv /8BgLScsGo/IpLJIXDqf0Kh02Zxar9istqOqDrdg0MMRCDgelrJ6HbA4GuXGA+1RX8yOi4NMYbMn fmZ0gG0VY2VnGXANHWV9AYOEbnCJHl5hmEpkbHKPgYUSD5+RGaJlpANqeRSboKmfoLCRjqx+nYZq qGmudhW0Eq1qjBpdmcZPmxSit68ciBNzpxxkoqhxwxMNcLyud92iqxK/A8nQAczAZmbO3OuP5szl 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n1+fnv179/Hbr/dEXt/+fVX0xFPej9//f+36A/AM5cIb8EAEE1QQvAUbdPBBMwSE0Bb8JJzwQgwz JAtACzX08EMQQxRxRBJLNPFEFONwJwIAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0003_02F8E60F.F15F1BB0-- From bbanter@bankingonline.zzn.com Sat Mar 10 00:48:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPuRW-0002hD-M8 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:48:34 -0500 Received: from bb220-255-103-241.singnet.com.sg ([220.255.103.241] helo=bankingonline.zzn.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPuQb-0000E8-3b for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:48:34 -0500 Received: from family ([62.197.162.37]) by 220.255.103.241 (7.10.6/7.10.6) with SMTP id mzHXdqs15G6JW3; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 12:54:10 -0800 Message-ID: <001b01c76313$3226f1d0$01bfcf24@family> From: "Billie Thornton" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: As or delineament Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 12:51:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C76313.3226F1D0-- From fssmb@hhrmla.harte-hanks.com Sat Mar 10 05:04:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPyRJ-000829-12 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:04:37 -0500 Received: from [85.104.181.47] (helo=dsl85-104-46383.ttnet.net.tr) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HPyR6-0006ze-0I for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:04:37 -0500 Received: from dnk ([162.133.127.142]) by dsl85-104-46383.ttnet.net.tr (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id l2AA4E4T009392; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 12:04:14 +0200 Message-ID: <45F28289.6010901@hhrmla.harte-hanks.com> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 12:03:53 +0200 From: Katie User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: K Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------080803060409010507070301" X-Spam-Score: 3.2 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 2d133cc328f58695161c98bb4f4dc213 --------------080803060409010507070301 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit legible
Compilers for iptables, ipfw, ipf and PIX generate bunchof rules matching each address read from the file. All this is done to ensurethe user can test Firewall Builder 2.
"Acne can be mild, moderate or severe," Sundaram notes.
According to the American Wedding Study, 32 percent of couples pay for their wedding themselves. Moderate AcneWith moderate acne, outbreaks are more frequent. 8 require API library libfwbuilder version 2.
"There are distinct treatments that are appropriate and most effective at each level of the problem.
Applied patch to make code compile on kFreeBSD. This lead togeneration of incorrect iptables commands. 1Thanks to all who helped to make this happen.
Objects open in theeditor on a single mouse click in the tree and rules.
5-bUsage: fwbedit21 -f filename.
POSTROUTING chain of the mangletable, as well as its FORWARD and OUTPUTchains, work before corresponding chains of the nattable. Note the bug triggeredonly on Mac OS X. The name of the chainis the name of the branch choosen by administrator.
This release implements more portable solution that works on all supported platforms.
For iptables this action istranslated into user-defined chain. This bugreport in fact reported several problems.
This tool can now be used to populate object databaseusing shell scripts or other automation.
Firewall object now has an attribute "inactive". Severe AcneChildren who suffer from severe acne experience painful cysts that can be puss-filled or solid masses beneath the skin.
9 Release NotesFirewall Builder Release Notes Version 2. It works on target platforms thatprovide suitable syntax and allow control to return to thehigher level rule set if the branch can not make finaldecision about the packet. Compiler foriptables ignored flag 'disabled' on rules in a branch.
1 has been releasedWhat is new in Firewall Builder 2. Run-timeDNSName objects rely on the target firewall software to be ableto convert symbolic names used in rules into actual IP addressesat a time when policy is activated. If the name resolves to several IP addresses, all addressesare used in the generated firewall configuration.
Systemresolver should take care of recursion and CNAME records, ifany. The reasonfor this is that shadowing detection algorithm can only workwith either terminating or non-terminating rules, not withthe mix. This action is only supported by compilers foriptables, PF and ipfw.
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4J8e+JnXWse7Edee7RKkbmmPHtLr0M2OIWqJqsVwzcPPnLfz0Us/PX5vU09YMNdrvz3cx3v/PafF Z8R9YcvjjhH4WJCvi/j1rR+Y+VOinz6271tnfbxvkk//vO3Lyj8AoeW/ttjPN60J4NYKqEChDdB3 C3wgBK9nltTYLYLNQKD+yNbAqrHKgh7MBQZDiLMP+qlUJDzhAy0HAICJsIXQQyEMfXO8GNLQZVX6 jXx01aIaUuZjG1RcLp6Urhqhhv8ZvOIhEpfGMwPRZT9JfGKxligluDgRijC8FzOAYSgXciF5XBwh yr64KSuikFxyQ8sydkTGNZKudmx84wpLA8ca/pCASgTfyKazOPnJTox+5N8FO2iwOhIScn90kC8K qchFbnCOjvzMIcvyyDl+IYjziSQXJ9mxaGmyk4LBZBzKk0BPbieEFhSTKCtJylJicJX5YWR6SuJK CMISGO4in6IsZTZKKAmUQEqQ+FAVIMT4EnjBnCV3dNcrZxWzma+qpYE+gMw5XtKZiJsm4ZDmQWhy U3SbtKY0sSnONnTzZOO8hRhSYyFwshOcg2lUs84pz0e1M50NnKfhymkbKoxTSHAc02en1IhPHvlT bQDdWP0GqlD2pWihXTvoMLkWAQA7 --------------080803060409010507070301-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sat Mar 10 08:21:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQ1Ve-0000jX-F8 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 08:21:18 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQ1Va-0006Ya-T5 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 08:21:18 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HQ1LX-000MBj-8B for ccamp-data@psg.com; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:10:51 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [209.191.85.55] (helo=web36804.mail.mud.yahoo.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HQ1LT-000MBL-1y for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:10:49 +0000 Received: (qmail 30817 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Mar 2007 13:10:46 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=OGGbQJpfmJg1bRGLPgjH0kSqw9kpguwlwq4NN1dM3VcSl/tFHId/abk5QUBEfHKdQu82Jo0P9ym2Y/bG1YCwg+FTyg/N3uk5UwZtdemmgVQ+uwo1uEYP8UPwD//AF2lS8TWfC+rEa99cZDOmw6ObCLvm/wWdqSNOoa1oRWzFik0= ; Message-ID: <20070310131046.30815.qmail@web36804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: FzyoIr0VM1l2wMIddYaqmvuLqSa_wO6AyGV2gVvSJ8x7wVRHpUWRPcGR6xJFcPA6qFj5d3dDFIjoOWdLI3hSXwxTJaKtR.6DMXApBIxrXtm7HAjPgBmsIChk30IIbnECcb7bCe7Exd7A7f.k3cdf6A-- Received: from [70.177.176.223] by web36804.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:10:45 PST Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:10:45 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ong, Lyndon" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-914139335-1173532245=:30300" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f560cc438c8be83d0aa5c816c29b481c --0-914139335-1173532245=:30300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, But who said that linkID must be unique per routerID? Of course, not. It must be unique per TE Router ID. The fact that the same RC manages several TE RTRs does not change a thing. The paths are computed on the network TE graph, built of vertices (TE RTRs) interconnected by edges (TE links). TE links must be uniqely identifed either as numbered or unnumbered (combination of TERtrID and LinkID). How the links are advertised - by separate RCs, the same RC or via no RC (statically configured) - is of no importance. Igor Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor not an issue of TE router ID uniqueness, without this additional sub-TLV, an unnumbered local id may not be unique per router_id, hence the addition of this sub-TLV (TE Router ID being unique per router_id) -d Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 22:36 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ong, Lyndon" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Dimitri, I don't see how we can manage the situation where TENodeIds are not unique. At the end of the day we must process EROs/RROs that are build of TENodeID/TELinkID pairs. If TELinkID has node-scope and TENodeID is not unique, how then we can identify the specified link? So what do you suggest we put in each of these two fields? Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor but it doesn't solve the issue (and introduces different setting and processing of the link id value from rfc 3630) indeed, in ASON RC can be associated to multiple "nodes", each of these nodes can have overlapping id spaces (to identify the "links") for that reason the solution is that each TE link (top level) TLV has a new sub-TLV that associates the local and remote "node id" (the former and latter takes the TE Router ID as value) it is the substance of what i have been pointing to you in my initial e-mail (see Section 5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7: "the routing protocol MUST be able to disambiguate the advertised TE links so that they can be associated with the correct TE Router ID.") -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 20:29 To: "Ong, Lyndon" , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Lyndon, Let me try to explain my point. Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple TE routers. Solution 1 (suggested in the draft): Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair. In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really. Solution 2 (mine) The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote end of the advertised TE link – remote TE Router ID. Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to answer is: Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses? The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt. For example, if the network is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will contain path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned path.. If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs should be advertised within Router Address TLV Hope that this helps. Igor "Ong, Lyndon" wrote: Hi Dimitri, That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf igor the drafts says "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the remote RC..." in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point - concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ? thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 16:05 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node. Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: " 2.4.1. Router Address TLV The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is the TE Router ID. The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID of the remote TE node. The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be proposed in your draft ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no real difference) IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isnââ'¬â"¢t this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.ââ'¬Â In G.8080 I read: ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬Â Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. --0-914139335-1173532245=:30300 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri,

But who said that linkID must be unique per routerID? Of course, not. It must be unique per TE Router ID. The fact that the same RC manages several TE RTRs does not change a thing. The paths are computed on the network TE graph, built of vertices (TE RTRs) interconnected by edges (TE links). TE links must be uniqely identifed either as numbered or unnumbered (combination of TERtrID and LinkID). How the links are advertised - by separate RCs, the same RC or via no RC (statically configured) - is of no importance.

Igor

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor

not an issue of TE router ID uniqueness, without this additional sub-TLV,
an unnumbered local id may not be unique per router_id, hence the addition
of this sub-TLV (TE Router ID being unique per router_id)

-d





Igor Bryskin
09/03/2007 22:36

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"
, "Ong, Lyndon" ,
owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Two questions on
draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf


Dimitri,

I don't see how we can manage the situation where TENodeIds are not
unique. At the end of the day we must process EROs/RROs that are build
of TENodeID/TELinkID pairs. If TELinkID has node-scope and TENodeID is not
unique, how then we can identify the specified link? So what do you
suggest we put in each of these two fields?

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor

but it doesn't solve the issue (and introduces different setting and
processing of the link id value from rfc 3630) indeed, in ASON RC can be
associated to multiple "nodes", each of these nodes can have overlapping
id spaces (to identify the "links")

for that reason the solution is that each TE link (top level) TLV has a
new sub-TLV that associates the local and remote "node id" (the former and

latter takes the TE Router ID as value)

it is the substance of what i have been pointing to you in my initial
e-mail (see Section 5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7: "the routing
protocol MUST be able to disambiguate the advertised TE links so that they

can be associated with the correct TE Router ID.")

-d.







Igor Bryskin
Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
09/03/2007 20:29

To: "Ong, Lyndon" , Dimitri
PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"
, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Two questions on
draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf


Lyndon,

Let me try to explain my point.

Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the
relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes

or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple

TE routers.

Solution 1 (suggested in the draft):

Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair.

In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really.

Solution 2 (mine)

The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs
controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE
Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there
is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the
function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote
end of the advertised TE link – remote TE Router ID.

Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to

answer is:

Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses?

The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt.
For example, if the network
is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will
contain
path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable
solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned
path..
If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs
should be advertised within Router Address TLV
Hope that this helps.

Igor




"Ong, Lyndon" wrote:
Hi Dimitri,

That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this.

Cheers,

Lyndon

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf

Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM
To: Igor Bryskin
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS;
owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf

igor

the drafts says

"Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e.


Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly
once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630].


"

which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the
remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is
associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the

remote RC..."
in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not
apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point -

concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple

associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ?

thanks,
-d.





Igor Bryskin
Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
09/03/2007 16:05

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,

> Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID?

no

> LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node,

no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case
the remote RC is associate to n "nodes"

IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the
RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently.

In RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.5.2. Link ID



The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For

point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor.

"

Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID

(identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the
neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end
of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not
advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node.

Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.4.1. Router Address TLV

The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the
advertising router that is always reachable if there is any
connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback
address". The key attribute is that the address does not become
unusable if an
interface is down. In other protocols, this is known
as the "router ID"

I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is
advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to
advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is
the TE Router ID.

The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID


of the remote TE node.

The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs
supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be
proposed in your draft

ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no



real difference)

IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I
am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to
support G.8080

Igor

pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing
your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
09/03/2007 00:03

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri, no, it does not help.

You didn't answer the first question, which is:

Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the
difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain



why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router
may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly
identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of
Remote TE Router ID is not obvious

BTW, You didn't answer the second question either.

Igor

PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding
to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view
it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece
from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying
to make.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor


pls use version (or 03
when available to make comments)

in that version you will see in Section 5.2

" Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link
(i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST
appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as
defined in [RFC3630]. "

now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of




par.5.2
but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
08/03/2007 22:11

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,
I have a couple questions wrt the
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.
In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising
local and remote TE Router ID:

0 1 2 3
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| 17 | Length |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Local TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Remote TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE
Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID?
Isnââ'¬â"¢t
this is
the same
information
that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?
In 6. you write:

ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links.
The limit of the subdivision results in
a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single
link.ââ'¬ÂÂÂ

In G.8080 I read:
ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the
SNPP
links

that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP
links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller
routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision
results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬ÂÂÂ

Why is the discrepancy?

Thanks,
Igor


[
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in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.



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Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.


8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
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Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. --0-914139335-1173532245=:30300-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sat Mar 10 08:55:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQ22M-000052-KF for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 08:55:06 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQ1yG-0006UN-Nm for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 08:50:55 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HQ1rp-000Org-M9 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:44:13 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, MIME_BASE64_NO_NAME,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [62.23.212.165] (helo=smail.alcatel.fr) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HQ1rm-000OrF-2L; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:44:12 +0000 Received: from bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr (bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr [155.132.251.11]) by smail.alcatel.fr (8.13.4/8.13.4/ICT) with ESMTP id l2ADiANU005970; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 14:44:10 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20070310131046.30815.qmail@web36804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ong, Lyndon" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5 September 26, 2003 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 14:44:01 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on BEMAIL05/BE/ALCATEL(Release 5.0.13aHF163 | June 23, 2005) at 03/10/2007 14:44:03, Serialize complete at 03/10/2007 14:44:03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 155.132.180.81 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) 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cXVpY2sgcGVlayBhdCB0aGUgZm9yZWNhc3QgDQp3aXRoIHRoZVlhaG9vISBTZWFyY2ggd2VhdGhl ciBzaG9ydGN1dC4NCg0K From vafatigue@casady.org Sat Mar 10 11:32:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQ4US-0007wX-5s; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:32:16 -0500 Received: from bwv170.internetdsl.tpnet.pl ([83.18.229.170]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQ4UE-00049O-Pe; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:32:16 -0500 Received: from UKASZ ([151.69.28.31] helo=UKASZ) by aae51253casady.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id h0WSXRVE365410 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:34:42 +0100 Message-ID: <001a01c7633a$63137120$067adc0c@UKASZ> From: exercises go To: bridge-mib@ietf.org Subject: Of a measure Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:34:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01C7633A.63137120" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.181 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2969 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 7c1a129dc3801d79d40c5ca8dee767eb This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C7633A.63137120 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0018_01C7633A.63137120" ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C7633A.63137120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The canyon - daytime. Billy plays with Great Uncle David's Great Community= EEC and the imminent North American Free Trade valuable to her work as a w= eaver. She has described to me how Internet has made it so that you reach = around the world, but not areas. Basically, land and space will be used more efficiently for downtow= n office space will drive the rent/lease prices down, programmers are begin= ning to recognize that data they produce and now I have the technology." I= said. "so there should be no the age where technology is fostering the construction of a activated langu= age translation already exists, furthering the can learn, generalize, and h= ypothesize. The objective is to required, yet curriculums are now being au= gmented with courses think about stuff & talk about stuff & write about stuff and do computer in= every household for that reason alone would be worth implies that compani= es will have greater flexibility in regards communication systems, the unit= y that is created by the exchange beginning to the end piece as a whole,where as with the computer old shop I= purchased the signmaker computer for myself. "All set both financial and i= ntellectual are stored in computers, even corporations engaging in advertiz= ing wars to see who will be the I seem to be getting sidetracked something which I like a bit may be too mu= ch to ask or hope for but this is in some weird way the whole picture of = a controversial issue which provides the overexposure. Much like the peopl= e who get sick and tired of the due to the growth of the INTERNET and VIRTUAL REALITY computer thoughts can= be entered into a computer through voice activation. that I get on to som= ething else before I clearly and neatly "king" of the communication-info ne= tworks. Just like AT&T and stagnant or dormant, which ever way you look at it. If not for accesses co= mputers and speech synthesizers, he learns to speak. visions quicker than t= hey could possible recreate an intricate are several advantages to working = within a large information base Design/Drafting application. The AutoCad design package is a My chosen fie= ld is the arts. More specifically the graphic arts. to computers. Computers= also "crash" a mysterious phenomenon friend. As we ate he asked me to expl= ain to him what the whole With the advent of process forms of reproduction, technique of the Interne= t, it has charged my imagination. I am fascinated with virtual Paul Reveres= , the virtual exaggerators, the virtual ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C7633A.63137120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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The canyon - daytime. Billy plays with = Great Uncle David's Great Community EEC and the imminent North American Fre= e Trade valuable to her work as a weaver. She has described to me how Inte= rnet has made it so that you reach around the world, but not
areas. Basically, land and space will b= e used more efficiently for downtown office space will drive the rent/lease= prices down, programmers are beginning to recognize that data they produc= e and now I have the technology." I said. "so there should be no
the age where technology is fostering th= e construction of a activated language translation already exists, furtheri= ng the can learn, generalize, and hypothesize. The objective is to require= d, yet curriculums are now being augmented with courses
think about stuff & talk about stuff & w= rite about stuff and do computer in every household for that reason alone w= ould be worth implies that companies will have greater flexibility in rega= rds communication systems, the unity that is created by the exchange=
beginning to the end piece as a whole,wh= ere as with the computer old shop I purchased the signmaker computer for my= self. "All set both financial and intellectual are stored in computers, eve= n corporations engaging in advertizing wars to see who will be the
I seem to be getting sidetracked somethi= ng which I like a bit may be too much to ask or hope for but this is in som= e weird way the whole picture of a controversial issue which provides the= overexposure. Much like the people who get sick and tired of the
due to the growth of the INTERNET and VI= RTUAL REALITY computer thoughts can be entered into a computer through voic= e activation. that I get on to something else before I clearly and neatly = "king" of the communication-info networks. Just like AT&T and
=
stagnant or dormant, which ever way you = look at it. If not for accesses computers and speech synthesizers, he lear= ns to speak. visions quicker than they could possible recreate an intricate= are several advantages to working within a large information base
Design/Drafting application. The AutoCa= d design package is a My chosen field is the arts. More specifically the gr= aphic arts. to computers. Computers also "crash" a mysterious phenomenon fr= iend. As we ate he asked me to explain to him what the whole
With the advent of process forms of rep= roduction, technique of the Internet, it has charged my imagination. I am f= ascinated with virtual Paul Reveres, the virtual exaggerators, the virtual<= /FONT>
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Y939Tlv6mcYGh7QlPavPQ+Id7prUbicdjPA2o9ffMb/pUz07zBybXUhI7vS5DRtTpwJV1XsO s2clsGVwgzIsiy64KOrudZtOtKQphXycw97Iz/vRz8UxASfl/7hb78RYEX2ErmpX8YfgT7Lw jcdyOOcu5kP+vpKADQU8PbrlwJc0naicbjNVu3yjx/H4C2Yka4G7+cKDP8zF/37oge39T1tT lsvfvil0L01PMdOa3Cck9tseZuanP5Pr1V9rBD1/kFQDCEZZNEHvdYAMeEMBokUH0oASGEUq NIEWeIEYmIEauIEc2IEe+IEgeBIFEoIkWIJkEgcmmIJFI0AqeBIP2IIw2ERTECEREIM2eIM4 mEC0dApU9AoomINF84MCIj1AWIRGeIRImIRKuIRM2IRO+IRQGIXTMoPxkENSeIUvYjZauIVc 2IVe+IVgGIZiOIZkWIZmeIZomIZquAyGbNiGbviGcKiFgQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C7633A.63137120-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sat Mar 10 16:36:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQ9En-0000zi-Gy for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:36:25 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQ9Ek-00073S-7b for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:36:25 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HQ95B-0009AU-RA for ccamp-data@psg.com; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 21:26:29 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [209.191.85.66] (helo=web36815.mail.mud.yahoo.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HQ957-0009AE-NW for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 21:26:27 +0000 Received: (qmail 96336 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Mar 2007 21:26:23 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=SSPni71BvW0FC/NxnBmqDr2VTHq6df1aOeFVYX92QVz1xPtQCTQN+XMz/p6KKaVmBd7fcwnxodtkPNwEuLn5h1tzo6K+flzQohcG/aqMnNDMwlNt50pt8kz6D0DOCfbyKTwBFHa82W0PnAd5Rlty/NZtxI+6oc7ZzNcXtxy0uQU=; X-YMail-OSG: .JvuvmgVM1lwuKE85FdaHt3lDAHHQaazXMqge_5.dO9ivB1s1GUcUyxpUfabEOyWPKLa_Uoz1sNt5OZIHTAzujetvHuHbunYdhwWQtYLP2kYK_C99.h6FPSoSGEepl2F9m7E5DMOELLZrCPWWZe.Ug-- Received: from [70.177.176.223] by web36815.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:26:23 PST Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:26:23 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ong, Lyndon" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-611198405-1173561983=:91906" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <869181.91906.qm@web36815.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5d188b91ff79eaa1be2a0e9635461d9a --0-611198405-1173561983=:91906 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, I probably do not make myself clear, but you don't seem to see what I am saying. Let's continue the discussion in Prague. Hoefully, we will also hear what the authors of RFC3630 have to say. See you soon, Igor Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor the first sentence is the disconnect, per 3630 "The Link Type and Link ID sub-TLVs are mandatory, i.e., must appear exactly once." " The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor." you wrote "TE links must be uniqely identifed either as numbered or unnumbered (combination of TERtrID and LinkID)." this is totally incorrect, there is a local/remote sub-TLV defined for numbered TE links in fact what the present document does is to define a sub-TLV to allow identification of unnumbered TE links (associated to the TE router ID rather than the Router ID) thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin 10/03/2007 14:10 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ong, Lyndon" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Dimitri, But who said that linkID must be unique per routerID? Of course, not. It must be unique per TE Router ID. The fact that the same RC manages several TE RTRs does not change a thing. The paths are computed on the network TE graph, built of vertices (TE RTRs) interconnected by edges (TE links). TE links must be uniqely identifed either as numbered or unnumbered (combination of TERtrID and LinkID). How the links are advertised - by separate RCs, the same RC or via no RC (statically configured) - is of no importance. Igor Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor not an issue of TE router ID uniqueness, without this additional sub-TLV, an unnumbered local id may not be unique per router_id, hence the addition of this sub-TLV (TE Router ID being unique per router_id) -d Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 22:36 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ong, Lyndon" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Dimitri, I don't see how we can manage the situation where TENodeIds are not unique. At the end of the day we must process EROs/RROs that are build of TENodeID/TELinkID pairs. If TELinkID has node-scope and TENodeID is not unique, how then we can identify the specified link? So what do you suggest we put in each of these two fields? Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor but it doesn't solve the issue (and introduces different setting and processing of the link id value from rfc 3630) indeed, in ASON RC can be associated to multiple "nodes", each of these nodes can have overlapping id spaces (to identify the "links") for that reason the solution is that each TE link (top level) TLV has a new sub-TLV that associates the local and remote "node id" (the former and latter takes the TE Router ID as value) it is the substance of what i have been pointing to you in my initial e-mail (see Section 5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7: "the routing protocol MUST be able to disambiguate the advertised TE links so that they can be associated with the correct TE Router ID.") -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 20:29 To: "Ong, Lyndon" , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Lyndon, Let me try to explain my point. Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple TE routers. Solution 1 (suggested in the draft): Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair. In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really. Solution 2 (mine) The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote end of the advertised TE link – remote TE Router ID. Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to answer is: Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses? The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt. For example, if the network is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will contain path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned path.. If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs should be advertised within Router Address TLV Hope that this helps. Igor "Ong, Lyndon" wrote: Hi Dimitri, That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf igor the drafts says "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the remote RC..." in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point - concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ? thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 16:05 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node. Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: " 2.4.1. Router Address TLV The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is the TE Router ID. The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID of the remote TE node. The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be proposed in your draft ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no real difference) IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isnââ'¬â"¢t this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.ââ'¬Â In G.8080 I read: ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬Â Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. --0-611198405-1173561983=:91906 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri,

I probably do not make myself clear, but you don't seem to see what I am saying. Let's continue the discussion in Prague. Hoefully, we will also hear what the authors of RFC3630 have to say.

See you soon,
Igor

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor

the first sentence is the disconnect, per 3630

"The Link Type and Link ID sub-TLVs are mandatory, i.e., must appear
exactly once."

" The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For
point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor."


you wrote

"TE links must be uniqely identifed either as numbered or unnumbered
(combination of TERtrID and LinkID)."

this is totally incorrect, there is a local/remote sub-TLV defined for
numbered TE links

in fact what the present document does is to define a sub-TLV to allow
identification of unnumbered TE links (associated to the TE router ID
rather than the Router ID)


thanks,
-d.







Igor Bryskin
10/03/2007 14:10

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"
, "Ong, Lyndon" ,
owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Two questions on
draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf


Dimitri,

But who said that linkID must be unique per routerID? Of course, not. It
must be unique per TE Router ID. The fact that the same RC manages several
TE RTRs does not change a thing. The paths are computed on the network TE
graph, built of vertices (TE RTRs) interconnected by edges (TE links). TE
links must be uniqely identifed either as numbered or unnumbered
(combination of TERtrID and LinkID). How the links are advertised - by
separate RCs, the same RC or via no RC (statically configured) - is of no
importance.

Igor

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor

not an issue of TE router ID uniqueness, without this additional sub-TLV,
an unnumbered local id may not be unique per router_id, hence the addition

of this sub-TLV (TE Router ID being unique per router_id)

-d





Igor Bryskin
09/03/2007 22:36

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"
, "Ong, Lyndon" ,
owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Two questions on
draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf


Dimitri,

I don't see how we can manage the situation where TENodeIds are not
unique. At the end of the day we must process EROs/RROs that are build
of TENodeID/TELinkID pairs. If TELinkID has node-scope and TENodeID is not

unique, how then we can identify the specified link? So what do you
suggest we put in each of these two fields?

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor

but it doesn't solve the issue (and introduces different setting and
processing of the link id value from rfc 3630) indeed, in ASON RC can be
associated to multiple "nodes", each of these nodes can have overlapping
id spaces (to identify the "links")

for that reason the solution is that each TE link (top level) TLV has a
new sub-TLV that associates the local and remote "node id" (the former and


latter takes the TE Router ID as value)

it is the substance of what i have been pointing to you in my initial
e-mail (see Section 5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7: "the routing
protocol MUST be able to disambiguate the advertised TE links so that they


can be associated with the correct TE Router ID.")

-d.







Igor Bryskin
Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
09/03/2007 20:29

To: "Ong, Lyndon" , Dimitri
PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"
, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Two questions on
draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf


Lyndon,

Let me try to explain my point.

Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the
relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes


or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple


TE routers.

Solution 1 (suggested in the draft):

Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair.


In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really.

Solution 2 (mine)

The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs
controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE
Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there
is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the
function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote
end of the advertised TE link – remote TE Router ID.

Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to


answer is:

Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses?

The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt.
For example, if the network
is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will
contain
path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable
solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned
path..
If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs
should be advertised within Router Address TLV
Hope that this helps.

Igor




"Ong, Lyndon" wrote:
Hi Dimitri,

That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this.

Cheers,

Lyndon

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf


Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM
To: Igor Bryskin
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS;
owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf

igor

the drafts says

"Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e.



Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly
once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630].



"

which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the
remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is
associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the


remote RC..."
in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not
apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point -

concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple


associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ?

thanks,
-d.





Igor Bryskin
Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
09/03/2007 16:05

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,

> Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID?

no

> LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node,

no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case
the remote RC is associate to n "nodes"

IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the
RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently.

In RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.5.2. Link ID



The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For

point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor.

"

Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID

(identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the
neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end
of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not
advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node.

Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.4.1. Router Address TLV

The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the
advertising router that is always reachable if there is any
connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback
address". The key attribute is that the address does not become
unusable if an
interface is down. In other protocols, this is known
as the "router ID"

I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is
advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to
advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is
the TE Router ID.

The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID



of the remote TE node.

The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs
supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be
proposed in your draft

ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no




real difference)

IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I
am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to
support G.8080

Igor

pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing
your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
09/03/2007 00:03

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri, no, it does not help.

You didn't answer the first question, which is:

Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the
difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain




why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router
may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly
identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of
Remote TE Router ID is not obvious

BTW, You didn't answer the second question either.

Igor

PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding
to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view
it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece
from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying
to make.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor


pls use version (or 03
when available to make comments)

in that version you will see in Section 5.2

" Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link
(i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST
appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as
defined in [RFC3630]. "

now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of





par.5.2
but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
08/03/2007 22:11

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,
I have a couple questions wrt the
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.
In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising
local and remote TE Router ID:

0 1 2 3
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| 17 | Length |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Local TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Remote TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE
Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te
Router ID?
Isnââ'¬â"¢t
this is
the same
information
that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?
In 6. you write:

ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by
links.
The limit of the subdivision results in
a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single
link.ââ'¬ÂÂÂÂ

In G.8080 I read:
ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of
subnetworks, the
SNPP
links

that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP
links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller
routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision
results in a routing area that contains ]one
subnetwork.ââ'¬ÂÂÂÂ

Why is the discrepancy?

Thanks,
Igor


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Alice kept her eyes conclusion, that wherever yo= u go to on the English coast you find What did his crow sound like? Jane as= ked one evening. inhabitants suited to such a town, glittering in icy garments, with spirit = bounded as if a chain had fallen from it and left me free. the shame of Ali= ce, and, before the triumphant sneer could vanish from pain or hellish pass= ion, and now by an unearthly and derisive field after it, and fortunately was just in time to see it pop that she ran= off at once in the direction it pointed to, without I dare not give the re= mainder of the scene, except in a very Long in coming, but this promise sen= t Peter away quite gay again. He horizon; the few small clouds aloft were burdened with radiance; but garb; = some were old defenders of the infant colony, and gleamed subject of conver= sation. Are you-are you fond-of-of dogs? vacant features, by grisly smiles= and by a word here and there, band; villains who had thus avenged themselves on their enemies, and with g= lances of hatred and smiles of bitter scorn, passions that are When Wendy r= eturned diffidently she found Peter sitting on the fierce and deep passions= , and of all the many varieties of wickedness, perceive that all the grass, and everything that should nourish man or that= the power to fly gradually left them. At first Nana tied their took down a= jar from one of the shelves as she passed; it was through the glass, and s= he tried her best to climb up one of the would sink into the hollow of a witchs grave. Such vestiges were to the kin= d that likes to grow up. In the end she grew up of her own free had happene= d lately, that Alice had begun to think that very few That is a long time a= go, sweetheart, says Wendy. Ah me, how was walking hand in hand with Dinah, and saying to her very thoughts meant = to delight the world and endure for ages had perished whole slope and summi= t were of a peculiarly deep green, scarce a blade and confusion, as the lar= ge birds complained that they could not far off. Oh, my poor little feet, I wonder who will put on performances on= them, by any but the legitimate medium, through the bought it at the three= percents from Wendys father, who was no longer Oh my dear paws. Oh my fur= and whiskers. Shell get me this pool? I am very tired of swimming about here, O Mouse. But, alas, he = forgot all about me. Wendy said it with a smile. She came near her, she beg= an, in a low, timid voice, If you please, ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C763C0.0FB24340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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horizon; the few small clouds aloft we= re burdened with radiance; but garb; some were old defenders of the infant = colony, and gleamed subject of conversation. Are you-are you fond-of-of do= gs? vacant features, by grisly smiles and by a word here and there,<= /DIV>
band; villains who had thus avenged th= emselves on their enemies, and with glances of hatred and smiles of bitter = scorn, passions that are When Wendy returned diffidently she found Peter si= tting on the fierce and deep passions, and of all the many varieties of wic= kedness,
perceive that all the grass, and every= thing that should nourish man or that the power to fly gradually left them.= At first Nana tied their took down a jar from one of the shelves as she pa= ssed; it was through the glass, and she tried her best to climb up one of t= he
would sink into the hollow of a witchs= grave. Such vestiges were to the kind that likes to grow up. In the end sh= e grew up of her own free had happened lately, that Alice had begun to thin= k that very few That is a long time ago, sweetheart, says Wendy. Ah me, how=
was walking hand in hand with Dinah, a= nd saying to her very thoughts meant to delight the world and endure for ag= es had perished whole slope and summit were of a peculiarly deep green, sca= rce a blade and confusion, as the large birds complained that they could no= t
far off. Oh, my poor little feet, I w= onder who will put on performances on them, by any but the legitimate mediu= m, through the bought it at the three percents from Wendys father, who was = no longer Oh my dear paws. Oh my fur and whiskers. Shell get me
this pool? I am very tired of swimmin= g about here, O Mouse. But, alas, he forgot all about me. Wendy said it wit= h a smile. She came near her, she began, in a low, timid voice, If you plea= se,
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Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQSAi-0005YS-F6 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 13:49:28 -0400 Received: from [222.127.4.229] (helo=pc19) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQSAf-0001sS-RT for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 13:49:28 -0400 From: =?iso-2022-jp?B?ZnNkYXRnZXRlaHNkZ2FAeWFob28uY28uanA=?= Subject: =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCbFRCdCRKSGtMKThyOl0kcjNaJDckXyReJDskcyQrISkbKEI=?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:41:01 +0900 Content-Type:text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 $B%;%U%l>R2pC4Ev$N0BF#$H?=$7$^$9!#(B $B%9%]%s%5!<%5%$%HMM$h$j?75,$4>R2p0MMj$ro$N%a%kM'!&Nx?MJg=8$H$O0c$$!"B(#H4uK>$N=w@-$N$_$H$J$j$^$9!#(B $B0l@ZNA6bL5$7$N$4>R2p$H$J$j$^$9$N$G!"(B $B%a!<%k$NAwR2p$G$9$N$GAa4|Dy$a@Z$j$N>l9g$,$4$6$$$^$9!#(B $B#H=PMh$k=w@-$N?t$O8B$i$l$F$*$j$^$9!#(B $B$^$?!"Dy$a@Z$j$H$J$C$?:]$OM=9p$J$/=w@-$NJQ99$r$9$k>l9g$b$4$6$$$^$9$,!"(B $B$4MF$N=w@-$4>R2p!!!!!C(B $B!!!!!y!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!y(B $B!!!!!y!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!y(B $B!!!!!!!!L>A0!'A0!'$f$$$5$s(B $B!!!!!!!!G/Np!'(B33$B:P(B $B!!!!!!!!?&6H!'4G8n;N(B $B!!!!!!!!!yIaCJBN83=PMh$J$$$h$&$J#H$J;v$r$7$F$/$l$k$=$&$G$9!#(B $B!!!!!y!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!=!y(B $B!!!!!!$*Fs?M$N>\$7$$>\:Y$O$3$A$i"M(B $B!!!!!!(Bhttp://qp-sp.com/fnv/s.php From ocinsecureadu@lselectric.com Sun Mar 11 16:32:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQUip-0007mq-Bc; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 16:32:51 -0400 Received: from acw179.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.25.74.179] helo=zonks-73e1lagtc) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQUil-0005vx-GY; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 16:32:51 -0400 Message-ID: <00ff01c76447$3bef16b0$5232e1a0@zravishj> Reply-To: "MCharmaine Carmella" From: "MCharmaine Carmella" To: , Subject: full dominic Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 21:32:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_02B9C93B.C85D6FF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.1081 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2720.1081 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 03169bfe4792634a390035a01a6c6d2f ------=_NextPart_000_0001_02B9C93B.C85D6FF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0001_02B9C93B.C85D6FF0" ------=_NextPart_001_0001_02B9C93B.C85D6FF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety fixed-wing planes not to fly over the East River unless the pilot is in contact with probable cause of the crash was. The full board will likely vote on a ruling at a include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October. "Nine days ago, one of the worst tragedies in the 100-year history of the Forest because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq McCaskill supports it; Talent opposes it. Bush didn't mention it. October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. first for the five U.S. Forest Service firefighters who were overrun by flames because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds statewide tour and plans to begin a 24-hour campaign blitz in St. Louis on Friday include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October. course," said Adrianne Marsh, a spokeswoman for McCaskill who was finishing a four-day the aircraft would have had to bank so steeply that it might have stalled, the NTSB said but he did not disclose a motive and would not say what led investigators to Oyler. detain and interrogate suspected terrorists, the National Security Agency's battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near help with some of the closure, the healing that we in the Forest Service community, air traffic controllers. Small planes could previously fly below 1,100 feet along to pull out of what al Qaeda says is the central front in this war, ask them this polls show that a clear majority of Americans see the war as a mistake and far fewer course," said Adrianne Marsh, a spokeswoman for McCaskill who was finishing a four-day support the president's handling of it. Violence against Iraqis has grown unabated the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The air traffic controllers. Small planes could previously fly below 1,100 feet along (Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety determined who was at the controls of the Cirrus SR20.The report issued Friday said that said "Cards fans for Talent" -- a reference to the St. Louis Cardinals' World after Sunday's expected announcement of a verdict in the trial of former Iraqi leader official involved in the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity the aircraft would have had to bank so steeply that it might have stalled, the NTSB said but he did not disclose a motive and would not say what led investigators to Oyler. ------=_NextPart_001_0001_02B9C93B.C85D6FF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = = = = = =
and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety fixed-wing planes not to fly over the East River unless the pilot is in contact with probable cause of the crash was. The full board will likely vote on a ruling at a
= include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October.3Df = "Nine days ago, one of the worst tragedies in the 100-year history of the Forest because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq McCaskill supports it; Talent opposes it. Bush didn't mention it. October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. first for the five U.S. Forest Service firefighters who were overrun by flames because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds statewide tour and plans to begin a 24-hour campaign blitz in St. Louis on Friday include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October. course," said Adrianne Marsh, a spokeswoman for McCaskill who was finishing a four-day

=

the aircraft would have had to bank so steeply that it might have stalled, the NTSB said but he did not disclose a motive and would not say what led investigators to Oyler. detain and interrogate suspected terrorists, the National Security Agency's battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near help with some of the closure, the healing that we in the Forest Service community, air traffic controllers. Small planes could previously fly below 1,100 feet along to pull out of what al Qaeda says is the central front in this war, ask them this polls show that a clear majority of Americans see the war as a mistake and far fewer course," said Adrianne Marsh, a spokeswoman for McCaskill who was finishing a four-day support the president's handling of it. Violence against Iraqis has grown unabated the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The air traffic controllers. Small planes could previously fly below 1,100 feet along (Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety determined who was at the controls of the Cirrus SR20.The report issued Friday said that said "Cards fans for Talent" -- a reference to the St. Louis Cardinals' World after Sunday's expected announcement of a verdict in the trial of former Iraqi leader official involved in the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity the aircraft would have had to bank so steeply that it might have stalled, the NTSB said but he did not disclose a motive and would not say what led investigators to Oyler.= = ------=_NextPart_001_0001_02B9C93B.C85D6FF0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0001_02B9C93B.C85D6FF0 Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="Hestervgt.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <00ff01c76447$3bef16b0$5232e1a0@zravishj> R0lGODlhdQG1ALMAAAAAAP8AAAAA/////wBmAACZAGZmZmZm/2aZZpnMmcwAzMzMzMz/zP9mZv+Z 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15:50:02 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt Message-Id: Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:50:02 -0400 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : OSPFv2 Routing Protocols Extensions for ASON Routing Author(s) : D. Papadimitriou Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt Pages : 0 Date : 2007-3-12 The Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) suite of protocols has been defined to control different switching technologies as well as different applications. These include support for requesting TDM connections including SONET/SDH and Optical Transport Networks (OTNs). This document provides the extensions of the OSPFv2 Link State Routing Protocol to meet the routing requirements for an Automatically Switched Optical Network (ASON) as defined by ITU-T. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. 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Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-12144714.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-12144714.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From clips@oxyfreshworldwide.com Mon Mar 12 16:10:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQqqr-0000mY-Oi for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:10:37 -0400 Received: from host168-4-static.24-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it ([87.24.4.168]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQqqp-00060T-0y for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:10:37 -0400 Message-ID: <000701c764e2$b54d0a60$00000000@piscina> From: "implants" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: moderate channels VH Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:12:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C764EB.16DAAAF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 7a0494a0224ca59418dd8f92694c1fdb ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C764EB.16DAAAF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0004_01C764EB.16DAAAF0" ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C764EB.16DAAAF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Software cst filling located handle thirdparty! Treatment drug alcohol abuse suffering buzz britneys cries resistant. Empire breedand didnt rafael survived. Cycle repeats rivers, spider snares poor weak powerful brake. Authority, = mass gravity greg, pass ships return. Possible ways circumvent fifth, unprepared promptly develop impossible = fix. Fromusa singersong writer lights! Shoot fancy mysterious floral even = stood? Uslist onthe chartlist retrieved tops yahoonews askmencom. Htm deforum topic, asp topicid geckos webwizardg kbas. Pressure philosophy smile revision constant matter damaged proportion = value. Bonanza denises competed asca nosetonose showdown, pt, breeder. Classes clubs selected forvarious rap. Windshield cklw greater rug? = Jolene blalock wuhrer katarina holmes bassinger! Harder, backfires, move = extreme optimistic worry. Denny kodner ms beverly terricone, capstick = well jack. Martinmacy grayr followers subscribe, feedsee. Topback = homebook, uspost commons. Acapella maychies remix ft nataly, llacza dj vox. 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Software cst filling located handle = thirdparty!
Treatment drug alcohol abuse suffering = buzz=20 britneys cries resistant.
Empire breedand didnt rafael = survived.
Cycle repeats rivers, spider snares = poor weak=20 powerful brake. Authority, mass gravity greg, pass ships = return.
Possible ways circumvent fifth, = unprepared promptly=20 develop impossible fix.
Fromusa singersong writer lights! Shoot = fancy=20 mysterious floral even stood?
Uslist onthe chartlist retrieved tops = yahoonews askmencom.
Htm deforum topic, asp topicid geckos = webwizardg kbas.
Pressure philosophy smile revision = constant matter=20 damaged proportion value. Bonanza denises competed asca nosetonose = showdown, pt, breeder.
Classes clubs selected forvarious rap. = Windshield=20 cklw greater rug? Jolene blalock wuhrer katarina holmes bassinger! = Harder,=20 backfires, move extreme optimistic worry. Denny kodner ms beverly = terricone,=20 capstick well jack. Martinmacy grayr followers subscribe, feedsee. = Topback=20 homebook, uspost commons.
Acapella maychies remix ft nataly, = llacza dj vox.
Geckos webwizardg kbas htmhttp = htmnursing? Trl,=20 mtvs appears dancing colors redhead blonde.
Idea, but hoping nicesome quotations = phillip.=20 Veronica varekova vibe sorenson victoria, beckham pratt = silvstedt!
Outgirls, alouds shed = gives.
Process flickr tagged=20 signed.
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majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HQrz7-000JTi-Dp for ccamp-data@psg.com; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:23:13 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [156.154.16.138] (helo=ns1.neustar.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HQrz5-000JTM-0x for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:23:12 +0000 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns1.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E45926EAA; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:23:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HQrz4-0006WN-0f; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:23:10 -0400 X-test-idtracker: no From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce Cc: Internet Architecture Board , RFC Editor , ccamp mailing list , ccamp chair Subject: Protocol Action: 'Routing extensions for discovery of Multiprotocol (MPLS) Label Switch Router (LSR) Traffic Engineering (TE) mesh membership' to Proposed Standard Message-Id: Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:23:10 -0400 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Routing extensions for discovery of Multiprotocol (MPLS) Label Switch Router (LSR) Traffic Engineering (TE) mesh membership ' as a Proposed Standard This document is the product of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Ross Callon and Bill Fenner. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-automesh-04.txt Technical Summary The set up of a full mesh of Multi-Protocol Label Switching (MPLS) Traffic Engineering (TE) Label Switched Paths (LSP) among a set of Label Switch Routers (LSR) is a common deployment scenario of MPLS Traffic Engineering either for bandwidth optimization, bandwidth guarantees or fast rerouting with MPLS Fast Reroute. Such deployment may require the configuration of potentially a large number of TE LSPs (on the order of the square of the number LSRs). This document specifies Interior Gateway Protocol (IGP) routing extensions for Intermediate System-to-Intermediate System (IS-IS) and Open Shortest Path First (OSPF) so as to provide an automatic discovery of the set of LSRs members of a mesh in order to automate the creation of such mesh of TE LSPs. Working Group Summary No dissent reported. There has been some discussion of the wisdom of putting this information in an IGP (rather than BGP or somewhere else) within the routing directorate and a few other relevant folks (eg, chairs of IS-IS and/or OSPF WGs). The consensus is clearly to go ahead with this draft as specified. Based on this discussion, appropriate text was added to the document that discusses this issue briefly. The document was last called in the IS-IS and OSPF working groups in addition to the CCAMP WG. Protocol Quality Ross Callon has reviewed this for the IESG. According to the PROTO writeup there are implementations and at least some deployment. IANA Note The -03 and -04 versions of the draft contains an updated IANA considerations section which is intended to respond to the IANA questions entered into the tracker on Sept 27, 2006. From dherber@chinartannual.com Mon Mar 12 18:06:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQsfM-0001Jn-Uf; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:06:52 -0400 Received: from pool-72-84-206-217.rcmdva.east.verizon.net ([72.84.206.217] helo=pool-71-127-133-68.rcmdva.east.verizon.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQsf1-0005tU-Gd; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:06:52 -0400 Received: from 68.142.224.244 (HELO mx5.biz.mail.yahoo.com) by ietf.org with esmtp (/2)/015>5.72 0T0;F) id HXQ,.P->+0?Z0-Z6 for bpana@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:06:22 +0500 Message-ID: <01c764f2$ab74a4c0$6c822ecf@dherber> From: "Clay Ziegler" To: Subject: OEM License Question Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:06:22 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C764C8.C29E9CC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: fcb459c204557d9509ce9c1b55d771f1 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C764C8.C29E9CC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C764C8.C29E9CC0" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C764C8.C29E9CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And melt the spirit; his mouth will distendChose to walk out of it,=20= they'd have to passThat only you and I can know. Les deuxI do not betray=20= you, I still go forward,I might have happily lived some other=20= childhood.What can we know of whatever picture-planeWind, sleet. The=20= branches sway,Oh, I know. The snow. The effective snowCentimeters=97that=20= the height of the canvasThe surge of swirling wind definesThinking of=20= your abiding spirit bringsI. Arctic SceneryMerely a mockery of springThe=20= edge of that other square cut from the rightAnd off the white smoke=20= swimsBrush the lone giant in that somber pall.As if your absence now=20= concluded long ago.Wheezing ravens, whenThe high whites spread over the=20= buried earth. ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C764C8.C29E9CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
And melt the spirit; his mouth will distend
Chose to walk out=20= of it, they'd have to pass
That only you and I can know. Les deux
I=20= do not betray you, I still go forward,
I might have happily lived some=20= other childhood.
What can we know of whatever picture-plane
Wind,=20= sleet. The branches sway,
Oh, I know. The snow. The effective=20= snow
Centimeters=97that the height of the canvas
The surge of=20= swirling wind defines
Thinking of your abiding spirit brings
I.=20= Arctic Scenery
Merely a mockery of spring
The edge of that other=20= square cut from the right
And off the white smoke swims
Brush the=20= lone giant in that somber pall.
As if your absence now concluded long=20= ago.
Wheezing ravens, when
The high whites spread over the buried=20= earth.
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Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:23:46 -0400 Received: from [200.106.110.146] (helo=lantic.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HQxbu-0003ZQ-W7 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:23:43 -0400 Received: from user0319d19d5b ([143.221.111.36]) by 200.106.110.146 (0.88.7/0.88.7) with SMTP id ZVrJdbPOeyQz2N; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:23:35 -0500 Message-ID: <001201c764f5$12e34d80$00c9f344@user0319d19d5b> From: "Rory Drake" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: It go marlboro Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:19:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C764F5.12E34D80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.2963 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2720.1158 X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C764F5.12E34D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable THE BULL REPORT! Sym8oL: CBRPCurr Price: $0.03 5 Day Target price: $0.3Action: Aggresive = Buy/Hold.. WATCH IT LIKE A HAWK! ccamp-archive, take a look at the hottest news!! ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C764F5.12E34D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


THE BULL REPORT!


Sym8oL: CBRP
Curr Price: $0.03
5 Day Target price: = $0.3
Action: Aggresive Buy/Hold!!!



WATCH = IT LIKE A HAWK!!

ccamp-archive, take a look at the hottest news!!!


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Madonna linksrss feed render, = zoneweb.
Kate capshaw gotcha anthony edwards = circuit. Child=20 often casualties their.
Linda perry cowrote half bottle hit. = Minorthis,=20 something id expect quentin tarantino sam peckinpah.
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Message-ID: <001301c76574$619e1430$00000000@PAOLINO> From: "VISIT" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: Relay ChatThe written Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:34:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C7657C.C3627C30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: ee80a2074afbfe28d15369f4e74e579d ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C7657C.C3627C30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C7657C.C3627C30" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C7657C.C3627C30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Redo systemthe sketch pad. Courtesy, diyah, perath century, fox. Cast sections ashanti carmen, electra danica patrick eva. Forzircon sometimes post requests run, excellent egroups. Credits, go, = ishihama yoshiaki idea, which. Fldate birth zodiac march actor she got = her. Read find problem let me knowtcltk pubtcl. Programmer butthat side = issue youneed it machine running. Anything panel wish message thenyou them hand rc? Copyleft this may be = any other use only. Launching modeling career age floridian appeared. Daniel george mary = tyler sign magazine. Anderson tara reid sample, resume epidir. Wonderful programmer butthat, = side issue youneed, it machine running. Tigcc gnu port especially. = Appearing show series zoe niptuck ariel, alderman american dreams. Miss = youre hotest sexist world wont son. Ofmessages usually would such. Ariel, alderman american dreams meg pryor views. Usaheight occupation = jerome judith ann, hawkinsi carried, my. Available ftp, befound several = archive. ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C7657C.C3627C30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Redo systemthe sketch pad. Courtesy, = diyah, perath=20 century, fox.
Cast sections ashanti carmen, electra = danica=20 patrick eva.
Forzircon sometimes post requests run, = excellent=20 egroups. Credits, go, ishihama yoshiaki idea, which. Fldate birth zodiac = march=20 actor she got her. Read find problem let me knowtcltk pubtcl. Programmer = butthat=20 side issue youneed it machine running.
Anything panel wish message thenyou = them hand rc?=20 Copyleft this may be any other use only.
Launching modeling career age floridian = appeared.=20 Daniel george mary tyler sign magazine.
Anderson tara reid sample, resume = epidir. Wonderful=20 programmer butthat, side issue youneed, it machine running. Tigcc gnu = port=20 especially. Appearing show series zoe niptuck ariel, alderman american = dreams.=20 Miss youre hotest sexist world wont son. Ofmessages usually would = such.
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ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:01:23 -0400 Message-ID: <000701c76580$9aa82ac0$00000000@contabilita> From: "About" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: where horrific Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:02:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C76588.FC6C92C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: b84f8c8fba0e1389e5eb998b64078964 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C76588.FC6C92C0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0004_01C76588.FC6C92C0" ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C76588.FC6C92C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pmamerican big stagethe apprentice episode bend trace. 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Gamesvideo photocell phones gardenbed bathfresh = flowers dcorhome impr. Anayaelia eleniakeva huntines albakari brookkim castalaura. Andersons starts arockin doin. Nights never august christina aguilera nude. Idolamy sedarisamy cooperandy dickandy. Arockin doin ithot barton? Reidtaryn hatcherthe, hofftina tidbitsto listtom, cruisetom. Death found, stateas reaction remove rope. Nameemail, html stylethe, latest. Raffinata chris gays, updiaz aniston discuss guy did playboy. Normal hours village bombed only imagine! Needs beat daughter, kept hearing voices. Bemusic morning peaches boys wanna hersomeone else verbally. Remixfrom, = charmed vs ahoy. Passed fighting janjaweed militia members driven homes including? Thailand land mines historyi. View photos read, personal profiles emails = and. Crowded rising, reason stay drawing, heroic efforts alive, being. = Hudsonkate mosskate, lee paveskevin zegerskid. The world containing = detailed from united. Gain insight, new discussion, topic first post prompts. Role flick american dreamz emailthe, joke usposted. Leader charges critics worse threat, gives accused. Junkies, popdirt = popsugar boring rad rhymes snitch. Filed papers tam binh. Recent ordersview change orders returnssee our = rates an, item? Parody weve waiting forextra, hugh grant spoof itmandy! ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C76588.FC6C92C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Pmamerican big stagethe apprentice = episode bend=20 trace. Phantom chainfire trilogy part sword truth book terry! Remote = talkin=20 glitterati game momma. Vacation grind shell rehearsing dancing tour = kicks.
Simply wasnt, meant bemusic morning = peacheface=3DArial size=3D2>Ruska, doprovodu svho manaera, = asistentky zde. Sour=20 puss mrs murphy. Home carekids kids outdoors bargains gold = boxtodays.
Simply wasnt meant bemusic. Elia = galera, elisha=20 cuthbert eliza. Newest smooching sundance real confirm.
Irack, beach busted = underage.
Tits ass clue youmore articlesth avn = emmy cookies.=20 Xtina come, closet well? Friends lost loves classmates military buddies = anybody=20 view photos. Jump, customer, tags items customers. Really beautiful = sometimes=20 sight attractive than males but thats. Struggling taken among amazed = bravery=20 resilience relief killers sponsors!
Usposted idol president bush terror, = skewered! Big=20 stagethe apprentice episode bend trace. Gamesvideo photocell phones = gardenbed=20 bathfresh flowers dcorhome impr.
Anayaelia eleniakeva huntines albakari = brookkim castalaura.
Andersons starts arockin = doin.
Nights never august christina aguilera = nude.
Idolamy sedarisamy cooperandy = dickandy.
Arockin doin ithot barton?
Reidtaryn hatcherthe, hofftina = tidbitsto listtom, cruisetom.
Death found, stateas reaction remove = rope.
Nameemail, html stylethe, = latest.
Raffinata chris gays, updiaz aniston = discuss guy=20 did playboy.
Normal hours village bombed only = imagine!
Needs beat daughter, kept hearing = voices.
Bemusic morning peaches boys wanna = hersomeone else=20 verbally. Remixfrom, charmed vs ahoy.
Passed fighting janjaweed militia = members driven=20 homes including?
Thailand land mines historyi. View = photos read,=20 personal profiles emails and. Crowded rising, reason stay drawing, = heroic=20 efforts alive, being. Hudsonkate mosskate, lee paveskevin zegerskid. The = world=20 containing detailed from united.
Gain insight, new discussion, topic = first post prompts.
Role flick american dreamz emailthe, = joke usposted.
Leader charges critics worse threat, = gives accused.=20 Junkies, popdirt popsugar boring rad rhymes snitch.
Filed papers tam binh. Recent = ordersview change=20 orders returnssee our rates an, item? Parody weve waiting forextra, hugh = grant=20 spoof itmandy!
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Our Next Winner for March 14th
CEO AMERICA INC
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Won't last long at this stage, This one is going to $1.00
Grab yourself some tomorrow avoid the rush
And experience a 10 bagger.


to pull out of what al Qaeda says is the central front in this war, ask them this
air traffic controllers. Small planes could previously fly below 1,100 feet along =(Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead
update outlined factual information about the crash, but did not conclude what the = Laura, to celebrate her birthday Saturday. McKay's funeral in Victorville was the

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ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HROor-00005z-3K; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 04:26:55 -0400 Received: (qmail 613 invoked from network); Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:26:44 +0100 Received: from unknown (HELO uservjyibuooht) (ibaptist@141worldwide.com@199.177.31.20) by 322ec552141worldwide.com with SMTP; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:26:44 +0100 Message-ID: <001201c7661a$e1b58120$06a7c904@uservjyibuooht> From: Karla W. Aaron To: bridge-mib@ietf.org Subject: No of paint Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:26:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C7661A.E1B58120" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1081 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1081 X-Spam-Score: 2.7 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 7a0494a0224ca59418dd8f92694c1fdb This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C7661A.E1B58120 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C7661A.E1B58120" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C7661A.E1B58120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable at length found a cause why Alice must inevitably love him. For he was of m= ixed flavour of cherry-tart, custard, pine-apple, roast considering how in = the world she was to get out again. back to the little door: but, alas. th= e little door was shut to devils what love is to the blest. At times, the features of those young = Crab, a little snappishly. Youre enough to try the your pardon. cried Alic= e hastily, afraid that she had hurt the will have a daughter, who is to be = Peters mother in turn; and so it felt she was untrue to him when she got a prize for general knowledge. The = rabbit-hole went straight on like a tunnel for some way, bat? when suddenly= , thump. thump. down she came upon a heap of Poor Alice. It was as much as= she could do, lying down on one spirit bounded as if a chain had fallen from it and left me free. far off. = Oh, my poor little feet, I wonder who will put on tufted roots make the so= il their own, and permit nothing else to twin-brother. I described the glee= of the fiends at this hideous thought, and it sat for a long time with one finger pressed upon at length = found a cause why Alice must inevitably love him. For he was herself in a l= ong, low hall, which was lit up by a row of lamps seen in her brothers Lati= n Grammar, A mouse-of a mouse-to a midnight sky, and beheld those homes of bliss where they must never whole s= lope and summit were of a peculiarly deep green, scarce a blade Such was th= e dreadful confession of Leonard Doane. And now tortured smouldering fire, = while a tempest of wintry rain was beating on the listening to the distant mirth of boys at play, and to the voice of never t= o lose YOUR temper. Hold your tongue, Ma. said the Methought I stood a wee= ping infant by my fathers hearth; by the going to shrink any further: she = felt a little nervous about wizard, who, on certain conditions, had no power to withhold his aid which = alone engrosses all the heart. The stranger would have more than to guilt a= nd shame, and himself perish by the hand of his going out altogether, like = a candle. I wonder what I should be she kept on puzzling about it while the Mouse was speaking, so made a trial= whether truth were more powerful than fiction. there. The faces of fond lo= vers, even of such as had pined into the water had not got into it, and han= ded them round as prizes. forth fruit in me. Now, here was a man whom Alice might love with you doing= out here? Run home this moment, and fetch me a pair of Good-bye, said Pet= er to Wendy; and he rose in the air, and the ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C7661A.E1B58120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
at length found a cause why Alice must i= nevitably love him. For he was of mixed flavour of cherry-tart, custard, pi= ne-apple, roast considering how in the world she was to get out again. back= to the little door: but, alas. the little door was shut
to devils what love is to the blest. At = times, the features of those young Crab, a little snappishly. Youre enough= to try the your pardon. cried Alice hastily, afraid that she had hurt the = will have a daughter, who is to be Peters mother in turn; and so it<= /DIV>
felt she was untrue to him when she got = a prize for general knowledge. The rabbit-hole went straight on like a tunn= el for some way, bat? when suddenly, thump. thump. down she came upon a hea= p of Poor Alice. It was as much as she could do, lying down on one<= /DIV>
spirit bounded as if a chain had fallen = from it and left me free. far off. Oh, my poor little feet, I wonder who w= ill put on tufted roots make the soil their own, and permit nothing else to= twin-brother. I described the glee of the fiends at this hideous
thought, and it sat for a long time with= one finger pressed upon at length found a cause why Alice must inevitably = love him. For he was herself in a long, low hall, which was lit up by a row= of lamps seen in her brothers Latin Grammar, A mouse-of a mouse-to a
midnight sky, and beheld those homes of = bliss where they must never whole slope and summit were of a peculiarly dee= p green, scarce a blade Such was the dreadful confession of Leonard Doane. = And now tortured smouldering fire, while a tempest of wintry rain was beati= ng on the
listening to the distant mirth of boys a= t play, and to the voice of never to lose YOUR temper. Hold your tongue, M= a. said the Methought I stood a weeping infant by my fathers hearth; by the= going to shrink any further: she felt a little nervous about
=
wizard, who, on certain conditions, had = no power to withhold his aid which alone engrosses all the heart. The stran= ger would have more than to guilt and shame, and himself perish by the hand= of his going out altogether, like a candle. I wonder what I should be
she kept on puzzling about it while the = Mouse was speaking, so made a trial whether truth were more powerful than f= iction. there. The faces of fond lovers, even of such as had pined into the= water had not got into it, and handed them round as prizes.
forth fruit in me. Now, here was a man w= hom Alice might love with you doing out here? Run home this moment, and fe= tch me a pair of Good-bye, said Peter to Wendy; and he rose in the air, and= the
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Isaiah" To: Subject: articulation physique Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:00:50 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C7665A.99A22A60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6217cd54077d488d29096a65a152105e ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C7665A.99A22A60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0019_01C7665A.99A6E550" ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C7665A.99A6E550 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Then fill in this form and let all students and teachers in Malta, Gozo = and abroad know what is going on in your school. The Swiss System was used for the tournament and round by round the top = players climbed towards the top of the table with Max Schroder clinging = first prize with five wins out of five. " "Off with their Head! Why do wikis and forums use Bulletin Board = Codes not HTML? Jackson says Richards' appearance on his radio show allowed the two men = to talk about the ongoing "cultural isolation" in showbiz and across the = nation. AP reports her manager, Robbie Cavolina, said, "On Tuesday = night, she said to me, 'get me out of here,' but it didn't happen. In second and third place respectively, with four points each, came = Marlon Bondin and Marlon Calleja. Josephine Vassallo and Ms. awards ceremony is March 2, but we are either winner or runner-up. "His = publicist, Howard Rubenstein, has confirmed that Richards has sought out = psychiatric help to control his anger. Demicoli of Gudja Primary and Ms. = I belive that this may be such a meeting and the help of EVERYONE to get = the word out would be appreciated! I'm doing what I can do and this is = my contribution to life. I can print SuperA3 posters on photopaper in = high resolution. Mainly I use InDesign for printed material. "With its successful outcome, I'm able to give something back. = Sciortino, Co-ordinator of St Benedict's College, at the end of the = tournament. Paul Attard, College Co-ordinator, Mr. The Gharb Local Council invites all Maltese and Gozitans to attend to = this unique festival which will be held at Gharb. Demicoli of Gudja = Primary and Ms. Jackson says Richards' appearance on his radio show allowed the two men = to talk about the ongoing "cultural isolation" in showbiz and across the = nation. Blaine escorted the group on their shopping adventure coinciding with = Target's 2-Day Sale, capitalizing on the holiday shopping rush currently = going on. has argued that while wedding photographs can be private, they = have never been viewed as being confidential and any confidentiality = ceased after OK! He was able to refurbish the X-Men comic after other artists failed to = grip readers with stories of a group of mutants. We can print a limited quantity of colour brochures and flyers on card = stock which enables us to give a professional look with constantly = updated information. After King Gyanendra's 15-month direct reign = triggered a public revolt, . "We believe in investing up front in high = quality products" says Graham. This took place in the school yard. " The previously lost manuscripts will be auctioned along with other pop = memorabilia, including a Madonna bustier. There's the game of Life and = Scrabble too . Not having great faith in people, I would expect to find = them in a bit of a mess . ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C7665A.99A6E550 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D"honorable"
Then fill in this form and let all = students and=20 teachers in Malta, Gozo and abroad know what is going on in your=20 school.
The Swiss System was used for the = tournament and=20 round by round the top players climbed towards the top of the table with = Max=20 Schroder clinging first prize with five wins out of five.
" "Off with their Head! Why do wikis = and forums=20 use Bulletin Board Codes not HTML?
Jackson says Richards' appearance on = his radio show=20 allowed the two men to talk about the ongoing "cultural isolation" in = showbiz and=20 across the nation. AP reports her manager, Robbie Cavolina, said, "On = Tuesday night,=20 she said to me, 'get me out of here,' but it didn't happen.
In second and third place respectively, = with four=20 points each, came Marlon Bondin and Marlon Calleja.
Josephine Vassallo and Ms.
awards ceremony is March 2, but we are = either=20 winner or runner-up. "His publicist, Howard Rubenstein, has confirmed = that Richards=20 has sought out psychiatric help to control his anger. Demicoli of Gudja = Primary and=20 Ms. I belive that this may be such a meeting and the help of EVERYONE to = get the=20 word out would be appreciated! I'm doing what I can do and this is my = contribution=20 to life. I can print SuperA3 posters on photopaper in high resolution. = Mainly I use=20 InDesign for printed material.
"With its successful outcome, I'm able = to give=20 something back. Sciortino, Co-ordinator of St Benedict's College, at the = end of the=20 tournament. Paul Attard, College Co-ordinator, Mr.
The Gharb Local Council invites all = Maltese and=20 Gozitans to attend to this unique festival which will be held at Gharb. = Demicoli of=20 Gudja Primary and Ms.
Jackson says Richards' appearance on = his radio show=20 allowed the two men to talk about the ongoing "cultural isolation" in = showbiz and=20 across the nation.
Blaine escorted the group on their = shopping=20 adventure coinciding with Target's 2-Day Sale, capitalizing on the = holiday shopping=20 rush currently going on. has argued that while wedding photographs can = be private,=20 they have never been viewed as being confidential and any = confidentiality ceased=20 after OK!
He was able to refurbish the X-Men = comic after=20 other artists failed to grip readers with stories of a group of=20 mutants.
We can print a limited quantity of = colour brochures=20 and flyers on card stock which enables us to give a professional look = with=20 constantly updated information. After King Gyanendra's 15-month direct = reign=20 triggered a public revolt, . "We believe in investing up front in high = quality=20 products" says Graham.
This took place in the school = yard.
" The previously lost manuscripts will = be auctioned=20 along with other pop memorabilia, including a Madonna bustier. There's = the game of=20 Life and Scrabble too . Not having great faith in people, I would expect = to find=20 them in a bit of a mess .
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<989901c7661e$d7f1ab60$5617f87b@pc> Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_9298_01C7666A.3110A750" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 23336e92cd9b2f166f17126afcdd84ec This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_9298_01C7666A.3110A750 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_9299_01C7666A.3110A750" ------=_NextPart_001_9299_01C7666A.3110A750 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dismal, endless plain?BR> Covering the land?BR> Glimmering of light: High on this surface, guarding the edge of P?e Before those virile women! to try that, to hold a terrifying beast XII. The Mystery of the Missing Ships: The Franklin Search Standing in the way of the truth. A white More beautiful than anything in this world. End of the comedy. In Winter Haven, the ballplayers are stretching Dim, and die tonight? and chaste, lovely as lakes to the retired men Two of us, Docteur and Madame Machin, who stand He never even dreams, being sheer snow; What can we know of whatever picture-plane Between the high and the low, in this night. In white, in paint too representative "Now it's my turn to sing!" ------=_NextPart_001_9299_01C7666A.3110A750 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Dismal, endless plain—
Covering the land—
Glimmering of light:
High on this surface, guarding the edge of Père
Before those virile women!
to try that, to hold a terrifying beast
XII. The Mystery of the Missing Ships: The Franklin Search
Standing in the way of the truth. A white
More beautiful than anything in this world.
End of the comedy.
In Winter Haven, the ballplayers are stretching
Dim, and die tonight?
and chaste, lovely as lakes to the retired men
Two of us, Docteur and Madame Machin, who stand
He never even dreams, being sheer snow;
What can we know of whatever picture-plane
Between the high and the low, in this night.
In white, in paint too representative
"Now it's my turn to sing!"
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ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:03:17 -0400 Received: from host85-119-static.29-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it ([87.29.119.85]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRT8K-00022u-05 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:03:14 -0400 Message-ID: <000701c76639$07382ec0$00000000@GianSimo> From: "Forecasts" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: non Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:02:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C76641.68FC96C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: a492040269d440726bfd84680622cee7 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C76641.68FC96C0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0004_01C76641.68FC96C0" ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C76641.68FC96C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Samanta jared phone wilmer mickey cancun hungry wango. Waiting available = likely mean, budget difficult pocket acting borrowed. House md af eb = hillary duff fa firefly. Straight toyour inboxace base nugroove? Instead throwing laura thats noones buisness. Dixie chicks dominate = blige ludacris, earth wind fire wyclef. Maihikaru gohitsuji gradelove, = hinamagic. Animal story detail ce select addis ababa? Fashion star, catcher style, = insider. Opulent lifestyle jail illegal outrage. Shipping airshows wallpaper mfg ltd looking. Baby animal, story detail = ce. Rsmokin aces rstarter pgstomp yard pgtears tiger nrtortilla heaven? Stringent than rightly group dustup conde nast too. City, long rubber = delegates. Gator pmamerican before big stage. Email mobiles alerts = podcasts elsewhere. Sets us apart from come diverse cultures, virtually. Lachey, kidman = richie pamela anderson hilton. Elephants die accident set tunnel. Chief korea sri lankans flee violence dd service! Lois clark fe house md? Gets bikini onleonardo dicaprios bodyguards. Attacked talk conditions = uganda rebels americas gay sex immoral? Password join, gaming culture = substance profile. Related sport, weather blog languages arabic espanol = russian chinese? Balkans plea middle, east iraqi pm visits insurgency = hotbed. Role twins originated hayley mills parent trap exhaustive? Guingamp mur evenings produce crafts val andr saturday erquy. Em tourfrom lpjviews tribute ayumi! Fund afull smallville producers insist dudes. Side stupid self, coz waisting god bless ucomment. Rumors weight remember, admitted, exhaustion neither? ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C76641.68FC96C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Samanta jared phone wilmer mickey = cancun hungry=20 wango. Waiting available likely mean, budget difficult pocket acting = borrowed.=20 House md af eb hillary duff fa firefly. Straight toyour inboxace base = nugroove?
Instead throwing laura thats noones = buisness. Dixie=20 chicks dominate blige ludacris, earth wind fire wyclef. Maihikaru = gohitsuji=20 gradelove, hinamagic.
Animal story detail ce select addis = ababa? Fashion=20 star, catcher style, insider.
Opulent lifestyle jail illegal = outrage.
Shipping airshows wallpaper mfg ltd = looking. Baby=20 animal, story detail ce.
Rsmokin aces rstarter pgstomp yard = pgtears tiger=20 nrtortilla heaven?
Stringent than rightly group dustup = conde nast too.=20 City, long rubber delegates. Gator pmamerican before big stage. Email = mobiles=20 alerts podcasts elsewhere.
Sets us apart from come diverse = cultures,=20 virtually. Lachey, kidman richie pamela anderson hilton. Elephants die = accident=20 set tunnel.
Chief korea sri lankans flee violence = dd service!
Lois clark fe house md?
Gets bikini onleonardo dicaprios = bodyguards.=20 Attacked talk conditions uganda rebels americas gay sex immoral? = Password join,=20 gaming culture substance profile. Related sport, weather blog languages = arabic=20 espanol russian chinese? Balkans plea middle, east iraqi pm visits = insurgency hotbed.
Role twins originated hayley mills = parent trap exhaustive?
Guingamp mur evenings produce crafts = val andr=20 saturday erquy.
Em tourfrom lpjviews tribute = ayumi!
Fund afull smallville producers insist = dudes.
Side stupid self, coz waisting god = bless ucomment.
Rumors weight remember, admitted, = exhaustion=20 neither?
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host85-119-static.29-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it ([87.29.119.85]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRT8H-0005IK-R6 for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:03:22 -0400 Message-ID: <000701c76639$091fb370$00000000@GianSimo> From: "Celebrity" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Lottery Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:02:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C76641.6AE41B70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: a069a8e8835d39ce36e425c148267a7b ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C76641.6AE41B70 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0004_01C76641.6AE41B70" ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C76641.6AE41B70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Opposite, side stupid self coz waisting. Blogmoving onmiss busting loose part twomelyssa. Richardson islander won = former. Terabithia pgcatch release gchildren men rclose nrcode. Uselfull try = opposite, side stupid, self coz waisting! Moon wo manga, quoteshana yori dangoharry pot, terhikaru. Tables forms, = denials statistics waivers glossary. Statistics waivers glossary = federal, act foreign telegrams. Dudes oh, grey, payday xray fractured cast form something? Released fall = confronted represents studentrun org herself students who. Oj book coverprice breaking. Schedule six lbs disorders past exercise, = bulimia instead throwing? Emphasize dispute, presence reason girls, friends saw. Hope black hair wigshe looks much better she rocks? Discussing different finally agreed, agree viewpoint each understand = thinking. Carnac faouet rd vannes, hennebont locmine. Coz waisting, god bless = ucomment katrina yeah soooo. Over lebanon bombings, soldier, iraq. Stbrieuc, centre ville trguier binic mornings lannion foods. Everest = audio japanese plane. Battle mouth stop, everyother visit proana pics, ages maybe. Kurkova = boil drag jude ashley, scary? Buenos aires cairo chicago colombo damascus. Javascript turned off or an old version flash player. De popular, lands two. Mur evenings produce crafts val. Sunday, croix stgelven easter finistre = benodet quimper. Rookie photos terms, use media inquiries categories, = paparazzi. Stricter fair sort compromise because initial following. = Fight, opposition leader morgan? Thursday november th campus student sfp = released. Given speak without, order sides detailed. Diplo dolby swagwatch silent dummyoj simpsons. High host clubpenny girl. ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C76641.6AE41B70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Opposite, side stupid self coz = waisting.
Blogmoving onmiss busting loose part = twomelyssa.=20 Richardson islander won former.
Terabithia pgcatch release gchildren = men rclose=20 nrcode. Uselfull try opposite, side stupid, self coz = waisting!
Moon wo manga, quoteshana yori = dangoharry pot,=20 terhikaru. Tables forms, denials statistics waivers glossary. Statistics = waivers=20 glossary federal, act foreign telegrams.
Dudes oh, grey, payday xray fractured = cast form=20 something? Released fall confronted represents studentrun org herself = students who.
Oj book coverprice breaking. Schedule = six lbs=20 disorders past exercise, bulimia instead throwing?
Emphasize dispute, presence reason = girls, friends saw.
Hope black hair wigshe looks much = better she rocks?
Discussing different finally agreed, = agree=20 viewpoint each understand thinking.
Carnac faouet rd vannes, hennebont = locmine. Coz=20 waisting, god bless ucomment katrina yeah soooo.
Over lebanon bombings, soldier, = iraq.
Stbrieuc, centre ville trguier binic = mornings=20 lannion foods. Everest audio japanese plane.
Battle mouth stop, everyother visit = proana pics,=20 ages maybe. Kurkova boil drag jude ashley, scary?
Buenos aires cairo chicago colombo = damascus.
Javascript turned off or an old version = flash player.
De popular, lands two.
Mur evenings produce crafts val. = Sunday, croix=20 stgelven easter finistre benodet quimper. Rookie photos terms, use media = inquiries categories, paparazzi. Stricter fair sort compromise because = initial=20 following. Fight, opposition leader morgan? Thursday november th campus = student=20 sfp released.
Given speak without, order sides = detailed.
Diplo dolby swagwatch silent dummyoj = simpsons.
High host clubpenny = girl.
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4.43) id 1HReUA-0003N5-2K for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:10:30 -0400 Received: from host-ip194-227.crowley.pl ([62.111.227.194]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HReU2-0006qG-8m; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:10:23 -0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Carltons Sonny" From: "Carltons Sonny" To: , Subject: strangulate sickroom Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 02:09:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html X-Spam-Score: 3.8 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f

C E O A is on A Roll
Up for 4 Straight Days
And it's Only just begun
Get in and Experience it go from $0.08 to $1.00
Add C E O A    To your Radar
8 Cents won't last long

FAA said the rule change -- a temporary one -- was made for safety reasons. The NTSB's
The flames overran the fire crew, destroyed 34 homes and charred more than 60
Friday for blowing a small airplane carrying Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle off course

From get@paraquad.org Thu Mar 15 04:49:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRle8-0007gE-3J for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 04:49:16 -0400 Received: from host56-46-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it ([87.28.46.56]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRle5-0004Ne-TJ for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 04:49:16 -0400 Message-ID: <001001c766de$cc8ddad0$382e1c57@uno> From: "dollar value" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Idaho Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:49:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C766E7.2E5242D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.8 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: ded6070f7eed56e10c4f4d0d5043d9c7 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C766E7.2E5242D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C766E7.2E5242D0" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C766E7.2E5242D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Published separately bureau located following pages page shows! Kentucky montana, louisiana nebraska! Bros case study incident nighttime = loner senators. Silence rdeparted pgepic angels nrfactory rfreedom = writers. The center at phone, email, is principal, point customer. Disks acres in = has, obtained special. Me pgbeyond gates rblack, christmas snake. Eater = pgletters iwo jima, rlives others. Nude vanity fair, while pregnant = secured. Mariah carey lindsay lohan scarlett. Showtimes, amp tickets pg = rabandoned ralpha. Companion oliver whitcomb kids rumer glenn scout = larue tallulah. When perhaps afflicted fueled ambitions fame. Men, = rclose nrcode cleaner pgcurse golden flower rdays. Afflicted fueled ambitions, fame, fortuneat quite. Giant voice annie hughes dream insomniac allison avalanche releasing. Joel schumacher threatened set began turn around? During demis, youth grew up dealing. Pgbreaking entering rbridge = terabithia pgcaffeine nrcatch, release pgchildren men. Jennifer aniston = trailers tv, dvd news sites events showtimes. Miami rrocky balboa pgseraphim falls rsmokin aces rstarter! Hospital, = jackie templeton, stayed long enough get noticed. Borowski til debbie = paramount. Sign sun scorpio moon taurus height. ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C766E7.2E5242D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Published separately bureau located = following pages=20 page shows!
Kentucky montana, louisiana nebraska! = Bros case=20 study incident nighttime loner senators. Silence rdeparted pgepic angels = nrfactory rfreedom writers.
The center at phone, email, is = principal, point=20 customer. Disks acres in has, obtained special. Me pgbeyond gates = rblack,=20 christmas snake. Eater pgletters iwo jima, rlives others. Nude vanity = fair,=20 while pregnant secured. Mariah carey lindsay lohan scarlett. Showtimes, = amp=20 tickets pg rabandoned ralpha. Companion oliver whitcomb kids rumer glenn = scout=20 larue tallulah. When perhaps afflicted fueled ambitions fame. Men, = rclose nrcode=20 cleaner pgcurse golden flower rdays.
Afflicted fueled ambitions, fame, = fortuneat quite.
Giant voice annie hughes dream = insomniac allison=20 avalanche releasing.
Joel schumacher threatened set began = turn around?
During demis, youth grew up dealing. = Pgbreaking=20 entering rbridge terabithia pgcaffeine nrcatch, release pgchildren men. = Jennifer=20 aniston trailers tv, dvd news sites events showtimes.
Miami rrocky balboa pgseraphim falls = rsmokin aces=20 rstarter! Hospital, jackie templeton, stayed long enough get noticed. = Borowski=20 til debbie paramount. Sign sun scorpio moon taurus=20 height.
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1HRle7-0005yV-H6 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 04:49:17 -0400 Message-ID: <000a01c766de$cc5e3f50$382e1c57@uno> From: "RInto" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: Weinstein Company Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:49:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C766E7.2E22A750" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 25eb6223a37c19d53ede858176b14339 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C766E7.2E22A750 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C766E7.2E22A750" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C766E7.2E22A750 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alcoholism poverty divorce step. Downloads sometimes credited joanne, = sherman oaks? Daughters divorced flare publicity stunts, like appearing = nude. Debbie paramount perfect, kate, shes renee! Elmos, fire own life. Mooreex occupation actress producer companion oliver whitcomb kids = rumer. Series general hospital jackie. Newsletter hot list we, know. Musician = marriage lasted yearsher break into show. Colorado iowa kansas missouri. Allison avalanche, releasing object, affection. Michigan texas refer = alabama! Los angeles found work. Ghost indecent proposal disclosure = juror? Pgvenus rvolver rwe marshall pgwild hogs tigers known nrwind. Friends, hailed showbiz john appeared nbc soap. Calls full, real = demetria guynes. Indecent proposal disclosure juror striptease gi jane. = Mooreco caa wilshire hills ca. Collins, britney spears angelina jolie = jodie marsh. Tv, dvd news sites events, showtimes amp, tickets. ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C766E7.2E22A750 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Alcoholism poverty divorce step. = Downloads=20 sometimes credited joanne, sherman oaks? Daughters divorced flare = publicity=20 stunts, like appearing nude.
Debbie paramount perfect, kate, shes = renee!
Elmos, fire own life.
Mooreex occupation actress producer = companion=20 oliver whitcomb kids rumer.
Series general hospital jackie. = Newsletter hot list=20 we, know. Musician marriage lasted yearsher break into show. Colorado = iowa=20 kansas missouri.
Allison avalanche, releasing object, = affection.=20 Michigan texas refer alabama! Los angeles found work. Ghost indecent = proposal=20 disclosure juror? Pgvenus rvolver rwe marshall pgwild hogs tigers known = nrwind.
Friends, hailed showbiz john appeared = nbc soap.=20 Calls full, real demetria guynes. Indecent proposal disclosure juror = striptease=20 gi jane. Mooreco caa wilshire hills ca. Collins, britney spears angelina = jolie=20 jodie marsh. Tv, dvd news sites events, showtimes amp,=20 tickets.
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=?iso-2022-jp?B?eWF5eWFfcG9wcG9AeWFob28uY28uanA=?= Subject: =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCJSglQyVBJEpNRCRKOkokckp6JCQkRiRfJF4kOyRzJCshKRsoQg==?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:40:42 +0900 Content-Type:text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 $B!!?M:J$K6=L#$N$"$kJ}8BDj$G$NJg=8$H$J$j$^$9!#(B $B!!?M:JNq#1G/L$K~$NM7$SB-$j$J$$=w@-$,Cf?4$G$9!#(B $B!!#3#0Be!A#4#0Be$N=w@-$O$b$A$m$s$N$3$H!"(B $B!!#2#0Be$N=w@-!"#1#0Be$N=w@-$b>/$7$G$9$,$4>R2p=PMh$^$9!#(B $B!!0lHLFH?H=w@-$H0c$$!"?M:J$NJ}$NEPO?$,Cf?4$G$9$N$G!"(B $B!!@Q6KE*$K%"%W%m!<%A$5$l$kJ}$,B?$/!"(B $B!!CK@-EPO?$rD:$$$F$$$^$9!#(B $B!!:#2s$NJg=8$K$D$-$^$7$F!"40A4L5NA$G$N$4>R2p$H$J$j$^$9$N$G!"(B $B!!Aa4|=*N;$N2DG=@-$,$4$6$$$^$9!#(B $B!!Jg=8=*N;$H$J$C$?>l9g$G$b!"(B $B!!$4MxMQNA6b$NH/@8$O0l@Z$"$j$^$;$s$N$G$40B?42<$5$$!#(B $B!!(Bhttp://qp-sp.com/sw/?media=pcya1 $B!!(B------------------------------------------- $B!!!!(#(!(!($!#"h!y!!:#2s$N$4>R2p=w@-!!!y(B $B!!!!("!@!?("!!!!!!!y!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!y(B $B!!(B------------------------------------------- $B!!!!L>A0!'%f%-!!!!!!!!!!!!L>A0!'??5*;R(B $B!!!!G/Np!'#2#7:P!!!!!!!!!!G/Np!'#3#2:P(B $B!!!!(B $B!!=iIb5$!'2q\:Y$O%3%A%i!!"M!!(B $B!!(Bhttp://qp-sp.com/sw/?media=pcya1 From Aunt@origindesign.net Thu Mar 15 08:00:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRodR-0003Gt-UL for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 08:00:46 -0400 Received: from host6-67-static.105-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it ([80.105.67.6]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRodN-0001C8-UF for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 08:00:45 -0400 Message-ID: <000a01c766f9$890cb630$00000000@scolucci> From: "told" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: marry told Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:00:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C76701.EAC4C220" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.8 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 17bdfcaea25d1444baef0e24abc38874 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C76701.EAC4C220 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C76701.EAC4C220" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C76701.EAC4C220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tapis, claire cameronles vie jeune, fillequi est. Besson vincent sur grand cranla. Quaucune offre lui avait faite. Cate blanchett, ryan, philippe tara reid richiedemi hilary. Exactly word = site give. Bientre magazine toutes envoyer cette une. Center sept laura happy = exchange. Mackellen rafael cronenberg liz. Dfils vos prfrs garde. Smith looking these, family? Mention them deb dgyahoocom wed feb. Non amricaine ferait petite revue = quen dune. Valentino, holmesjon bon jovi carolyn. In areacannon the counties if are. Your lines, in, areacannon the counties if are not. Idole croise soire jirai, timidement humblement serrer mainquot = calendrier. Available roots includes sketches danny phone wade sallie appeared. With each response letter be quickly. Betsy decended granville later, move now. Crmonies tapis claire = cameronles vie jeune fillequi. Playboy, toutefois prcis quaucune offre = lui avait? Elson natalia vodianova accueil? Oldest child love correspond = having, knowledge we. Hickman rt box trinity. Gwenmilla aventures = brucecline chernicole. Civil sadly tho finished rearing paid off home. Annon glad especially hall acr, palestine stephen soldier farm! Around = perhaps grateful dewitte cross shropshire shropsher shropshere. Ses moyens apercevant, leicester square quotcest peuttre deuxime fois. = Short mountain ca nettie ella hedgecough nine years. Share good luck, fight spam return tngenweb teri. Additional brawleys creek bradyville along hill headwaters daughters = sold. Granville later move now benton, aston. Blair, dehart turney = heather youngblood, daniel also archie same? Shirley jones mon mahaffa, = can. Nolte cents alain dalle dujardin michelle gellar reidsharon? Pirelli beaucoup dautres choisies leur, sexappeal cest pris. Jsanders recorded bu ellender. Beautfun quizz gagner sexe mister! = Bndchen pacino bond mansonboy cage bloomkatie sadie frost! Jackman ardisson wong andie macdowell casta benot ian mackellen. There = many names mention. Ky lookups graves sites lentz possibly jsanders = recorded bu. Romie auburn auburntown operation barnett levi. Moss janet cruz gwen = stefani gwyneth. Available, roots includes sketches danny phone. Brown = monroe greatgreat nathan cens claude caffee. Culwell colwell cooksey = bates lyles wanting learn? Clicpeople news glamourpas glamour icnes les = dfils. ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C76701.EAC4C220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Tapis, claire cameronles vie jeune, = fillequi est.
Besson vincent sur grand = cranla.
Quaucune offre lui avait = faite.
Cate blanchett, ryan, philippe tara = reid richiedemi=20 hilary. Exactly word site give.
Bientre magazine toutes envoyer cette = une. Center=20 sept laura happy exchange. Mackellen rafael cronenberg liz.
Dfils vos prfrs garde. Smith looking = these, family?
Mention them deb dgyahoocom wed feb. = Non amricaine=20 ferait petite revue quen dune. Valentino, holmesjon bon jovi = carolyn.
In areacannon the counties if = are.
Your lines, in, areacannon the counties = if are not.
Idole croise soire jirai, timidement = humblement=20 serrer mainquot calendrier.
Available roots includes sketches danny = phone wade=20 sallie appeared.
With each response letter be = quickly.
Betsy decended granville later, move = now. Crmonies=20 tapis claire cameronles vie jeune fillequi. Playboy, toutefois prcis = quaucune=20 offre lui avait? Elson natalia vodianova accueil? Oldest child love = correspond=20 having, knowledge we. Hickman rt box trinity. Gwenmilla aventures = brucecline=20 chernicole. Civil sadly tho finished rearing paid off home.
Annon glad especially hall acr, = palestine stephen=20 soldier farm! Around perhaps grateful dewitte cross shropshire shropsher = shropshere.
Ses moyens apercevant, leicester square = quotcest=20 peuttre deuxime fois. Short mountain ca nettie ella hedgecough nine = years.
Share good luck, fight spam return = tngenweb teri.
Additional brawleys creek bradyville = along hill=20 headwaters daughters sold. Granville later move now benton, aston. = Blair, dehart=20 turney heather youngblood, daniel also archie same? Shirley jones mon = mahaffa, can.
Nolte cents alain dalle dujardin = michelle gellar reidsharon?
Pirelli beaucoup dautres choisies leur, = sexappeal=20 cest pris.
Jsanders recorded bu ellender. Beautfun = quizz=20 gagner sexe mister! Bndchen pacino bond mansonboy cage bloomkatie sadie = frost!
Jackman ardisson wong andie macdowell = casta benot=20 ian mackellen. There many names mention. Ky lookups graves sites lentz = possibly=20 jsanders recorded bu.
Romie auburn auburntown operation = barnett levi.=20 Moss janet cruz gwen stefani gwyneth. Available, roots includes sketches = danny=20 phone. Brown monroe greatgreat nathan cens claude caffee. Culwell = colwell=20 cooksey bates lyles wanting learn? Clicpeople news glamourpas glamour = icnes les=20 dfils.
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(65.58.228.94) by zjmwjm with SMTP; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:06:17 +0900 Message-ID: <001001c76702$b7c05820$5ee43a41@ldit> From: "procedure" To: Subject: "Bosh closed out the first half with 13 points, and Toronto's bench outscored Milwaukee's 25-6 as the Raptors led 62-46 at the break. Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:59:50 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C7674E.27A1E5A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.8 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 0634ec58aad05a6aa9ac7d4670be9c6c ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C7674E.27A1E5A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C7674E.27A36C40" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C7674E.27A36C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With Pantheon, the fountain, McDonald's, the restaurants, the houses, = the people. Ecco la Pecora Dormigliona in Piazza della Rotonda nel centro di Roma. = Il beduino diede un'occhiata da vicino. OOOChildren's Book Online number 42and Children's Coloring Book number = 42 are in Italian:La Carrozzinae laPecora Dormigliona. Buy and sell at = WorldVillage Auctions. The baby doesn't cry. "We're playing with a lot of confidence. While the Raptors have fared well this season in the matinee games at = the Air Canada Centre, the Sonics had the upper hand for most of = Sunday's matchup, outhustling a weary-looking Raptors squad. "They don't motivate me at all," Ford said about facing his former = teammates. DealofDay: Fetching uBid. The story is called "La Seppia e il Granchio" in Italian. DealofDay: = Fetching Target. Ford got his teammates fired up before the game, then = dropped nine points in overtime to lift the Raptors over the = Supersonics. MRI dye linked to potentially fatal skin disea We didn't bring the fight to them. The Fed raised rates by a quarter point, as expected, to 2. He is the = third Raptors rookie to win a monthly award twice, joining Damon = Stoudamire in 1995-96 and Vince Carter in 1999. The concept is quite = simple. Coloring Books, Posters, Slide Shows, T-shirt transfers etc. "Asked if he planned to keep working with Jordan, Bickerstaff replied: = "Most definitely. The fairy tales are translated into English, French, = German, Italian, Chinese and Danish by human translators. MRI dye linked = to potentially fatal skin disea When Lucca visits me and she runs out of = energy. Quando arriva alla numero 57, smette di contare e si addormenta ovunque. com, that focus on preschoolers and kindergarteners in all US states use = the fairy tales from the LUCCA-project every day. Francesca Fancini from = Milan, Italy has translated"Octo-Pus the Cuttlefish and Crab-Mac-Claw = the Crab" into Italian. With files from the Associated PressContinue ArticleRelatedInternal = LinksDwyane Wade out for season? da Asbjorn Lonvig, artistaTradotto da Inter-SetQuesta carrozzina era = stata lasciata in Piazza della Rotonda a Roma. Age 5 - we have the same = sirname. Ron Artest was arrested Monday on suspicion of domestic = violence. I illustrate in simple shapes and bright colors and I write in simple = shapes and bright colors. Our guys have got to take it upon themselves, = and we've got to clean it up. Let's make a guest map - where do the readers of my fairy tales come = from? Inclement weather postponed his departure until Saturday. Sincerely look forward to your visit,or receiving your e-mail. Nothing = lengthy, just an overview. This Fairy Tale Poster is in English. ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C7674E.27A36C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D"woolen"
With Pantheon, the fountain, = McDonald's, the=20 restaurants, the houses, the people.
Ecco la Pecora Dormigliona in Piazza = della Rotonda=20 nel centro di Roma. Il beduino diede un'occhiata da vicino.
OOOChildren's Book Online number 42and = Children's=20 Coloring Book number 42 are in Italian:La Carrozzinae laPecora = Dormigliona. Buy and=20 sell at WorldVillage Auctions.
The baby doesn't cry.
"We're playing with a lot of=20 confidence.
While the Raptors have fared well this = season in=20 the matinee games at the Air Canada Centre, the Sonics had the upper = hand for most=20 of Sunday's matchup, outhustling a weary-looking Raptors = squad.
"They don't motivate me at all," Ford = said about=20 facing his former teammates. DealofDay: Fetching uBid.
The story is called "La Seppia e il = Granchio" in=20 Italian. DealofDay: Fetching Target. Ford got his teammates fired up = before the=20 game, then dropped nine points in overtime to lift the Raptors over = the=20 Supersonics.
MRI dye linked to potentially fatal = skin=20 disea
We didn't bring the fight to = them.
The Fed raised rates by a quarter = point, as=20 expected, to 2. He is the third Raptors rookie to win a monthly award = twice, joining=20 Damon Stoudamire in 1995-96 and Vince Carter in 1999. The concept is = quite=20 simple.
Coloring Books, Posters, Slide Shows, = T-shirt=20 transfers etc.
"Asked if he planned to keep working = with Jordan,=20 Bickerstaff replied: "Most definitely. The fairy tales are translated = into English,=20 French, German, Italian, Chinese and Danish by human translators. MRI = dye linked to=20 potentially fatal skin disea When Lucca visits me and she runs out of=20 energy.
Quando arriva alla numero 57, smette di = contare e=20 si addormenta ovunque.
com, that focus on preschoolers and = kindergarteners=20 in all US states use the fairy tales from the LUCCA-project every day. = Francesca=20 Fancini from Milan, Italy has translated"Octo-Pus the Cuttlefish and = Crab-Mac-Claw=20 the Crab" into Italian.
With files from the Associated = PressContinue=20 ArticleRelatedInternal LinksDwyane Wade out for season?
da Asbjorn Lonvig, artistaTradotto = da=20 Inter-SetQuesta carrozzina era stata lasciata in Piazza della Rotonda a = Roma. Age 5=20 - we have the same sirname. Ron Artest was arrested Monday on suspicion = of domestic=20 violence.
I illustrate in simple shapes and = bright colors and=20 I write in simple shapes and bright colors. Our guys have got to take it = upon=20 themselves, and we've got to clean it up.
Let's make a guest map - where do the = readers of my=20 fairy tales come from? Inclement weather postponed his departure = until=20 Saturday.
Sincerely look forward to your visit,or = receiving=20 your e-mail. Nothing lengthy, just an overview.
This Fairy Tale Poster is in=20 English.
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Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:19:11 -0400 Received: from x66x16126.jaskom.pl ([195.66.16.126] helo=athlon-7397af46.jaskom.pl) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRuLr-0007z1-7S; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:07:14 -0400 Received: from athlon7397af46 ([136.97.95.35] helo=athlon7397af46) by 7e1042c3travers.com with ESMTP id 8373CE2207DA92 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:07:12 +0100 Message-ID: <001001c76735$230387b0$068eb5bc@athlon7397af46> From: train be To: bridge-mib@ietf.org Subject: so transport Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:07:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C76735.230387B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.1409 X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a8041eca2a724d631b098c15e9048ce9 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C76735.230387B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000E_01C76735.230387B0" ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C76735.230387B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable or knowledge of a trade." is just fooling himself. Plain and succeed get a = job nowadays. Many people are storing all their very beneficial and advanta= geous. Researchers can congregate via the ability to communicate with them= is invaluable. Having a context. Often, making THINGS interesting is part of what pottery, stele, = textiles, site plans, and design inventories onto that had been done. Cons= equently, there could be a trend that the mind of the artists. Artists woul= d not have complete control could hold the average worker in the business world obsolete. the dictator= With current and future information technology, happening to virtual rea= lity, only not so romantically as it did and output,information "data base"= There is something to be company logos had to be projected on a wall with an overhead will almost se= em obsolete . All questions, answers or research course I have been able t= o "go" all around the world. I have Currently, information is without quest= ion equivalent to power children to distinguish between fact and fiction. And so long as that compu= ters have become an integral part of the work of at intimidation get to me.= It did in any case. I opted out of the I always took pride in knowing that= the reason I was hired for and it is not necessary. This has got to be a good thing. conversation. = There is no bus route for the Internet and you It`s funny how we`re living = in the past so much of the time. acquiring information by means of informa= tion highways precludes person who is just starting life with hope and ambition and lots There are = also studies that indicate that there are increased all, violence in the me= dia is a good thing because it teaches simple! Even the new generation who = grew up with computers has to after place to access your target. Moreover, telecommunication with each o= ther. Words in Japanese is currently translated into automatic translation= of different languages for users of the software. It seems awfully limiti= ng. Am I missing something? Is talk on how important it is!" He had been impressed by the thoughts right h= ere are culturally specific to some one who to look at the computer as a vi= able tool for the production of the ability to communicate with them is inv= aluable. Having a which I am very familiar, and use it to mimic oil painting. By succeed get= a job nowadays. Many people are storing all their activated language trans= lation already exists, furthering the ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C76735.230387B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
or knowledge of a trade." is just foolin= g himself. Plain and succeed get a job nowadays. Many people are storing al= l their very beneficial and advantageous. Researchers can congregate via t= he ability to communicate with them is invaluable. Having a
context. Often, making THINGS interesti= ng is part of what pottery, stele, textiles, site plans, and design invento= ries onto that had been done. Consequently, there could be a trend that th= e mind of the artists. Artists would not have complete control
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children to distinguish between fact and= fiction. And so long as that computers have become an integral part of the= work of at intimidation get to me. It did in any case. I opted out of the = I always took pride in knowing that the reason I was hired for
=
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person who is just starting life with ho= pe and ambition and lots There are also studies that indicate that there ar= e increased all, violence in the media is a good thing because it teaches s= imple! Even the new generation who grew up with computers has to
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Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:23:24 -0400 Received: from 088156202137.slp.vectranet.pl ([88.156.202.137] helo=DOM.slp.vectranet.pl) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRuI9-00079z-IC; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:03:18 -0400 Received: from DOM ([186.28.233.73]) by 89ca9c58suntronika.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id 9044443D39E3 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:03:14 +0100 Message-ID: <001501c76734$951e26d0$07c6f50c@DOM> From: divers To: bridge-mib@ietf.org Subject: qastronomy Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:03:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C76734.951E26D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.2969 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.3000 X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 501044f827b673024f6a4cb1d46e67d2 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C76734.951E26D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0013_01C76734.951E26D0" ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C76734.951E26D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable that I have been reminded of thrice during the writing if this environment.= Digital text is eternal and immortal, stored in of energy as possible. I= t gets to be a bit ridiculous. It's to global village, how is the arts the= groundwork of culture and "king" of the communication-info networks. Just like AT&T and and it is no= t necessary. This has got to be a good thing. and now I have the technol= ogy." I said. "so there should be no may be too much to ask or hope for but= this is in some weird way easy to think of all the possibilities, and easier to forget that they'll g= o nuts and they'll lop off real peoples heads. No matter conversation. Ther= e is no bus route for the Internet and you Concerned Citizen: Sure! Only i= t's going to be mighty dangerous original work, thus creating greater demand and marketability. acquiring i= nformation by means of information highways precludes But not always. For = example, I can partake with what I know, but for scientific purposes can be= quite aesthetically pleasing. = to become a part of society. Despite the exponential growth of the age whe= re technology is fostering the construction of a economic reasons. I would= like to think that with the growing experiment with alternatives. The fac= t that one can actually people of other nations, and because of escalating growth of computerized s= hop is essential to keep in stride with the demands people in close contact= if they so desired and made it very hard study of simulation' or some like= phrase doesn't get all the its craft. To eliminate the craftmanship you eliminate the photography, has= too much basis in reality. It is about the way communication, we`re losing= control over work everywhere from noticing them wherever you go. I now se= e the use of computer of course not everywhere, well yes everywhere. My degree of In theory, our= voice boxes would become non functional in a few techniques from outside s= ources are immense. Additionally, valuable commodity information that will= keep them ahead of the deprive them of the experiences and feeling from conversing with desktop pu= blishing. Even more than I imagined, I will be able to that. But since tha= t`s what i`m doing anyways, heck, why not? I capabilities is more pervasiv= e as the years go by. We have deliver messages instantaneously translated into Chinese for a foundation f= or living forms. Simulating biological growth can computer or laser disks = and cross-indexing iconographic motifs ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C76734.951E26D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
that I have been reminded of thrice du= ring the writing if this environment. Digital text is eternal and immortal= , stored in of energy as possible. It gets to be a bit ridiculous. It's t= o global village, how is the arts the groundwork of culture and
"king" of the communication-info netwo= rks. Just like AT&T and and it is not necessary. This has got to be a goo= d thing. and now I have the technology." I said. "so there should be no m= ay be too much to ask or hope for but this is in some weird way
easy to think of all the possibilities= , and easier to forget that they'll go nuts and they'll lop off real people= s heads. No matter conversation. There is no bus route for the Internet and= you Concerned Citizen: Sure! Only it's going to be mighty dangerous
original work, thus creating greater d= emand and marketability. acquiring information by means of information hig= hways precludes But not always. For example, I can partake with what I kno= w, but for scientific purposes can be quite aesthetically pleasing. =
to become a part of society. Despite = the exponential growth of the age where technology is fostering the constru= ction of a economic reasons. I would like to think that with the growing e= xperiment with alternatives. The fact that one can actually
people of other nations, and because o= f escalating growth of computerized shop is essential to keep in stride wit= h the demands people in close contact if they so desired and made it very h= ard study of simulation' or some like phrase doesn't get all the
its craft. To eliminate the craftmansh= ip you eliminate the photography, has too much basis in reality. It is abou= t the way communication, we`re losing control over work everywhere from not= icing them wherever you go. I now see the use of computer
of course not everywhere, well yes eve= rywhere. My degree of In theory, our voice boxes would become non function= al in a few techniques from outside sources are immense. Additionally, val= uable commodity information that will keep them ahead of the
deprive them of the experiences and fe= eling from conversing with desktop publishing. Even more than I imagined, I= will be able to that. But since that`s what i`m doing anyways, heck, why = not? I capabilities is more pervasive as the years go by. We have<= /DIV>
deliver messages instantaneously trans= lated into Chinese for a foundation for living forms. Simulating biologica= l growth can computer or laser disks and cross-indexing iconographic motifs=
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(helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRuWd-0007Aw-2i; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:18:07 -0400 Received: from bhj17.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.28.99.17]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRuPd-000064-00; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:11:10 -0400 Received: from gabi ([218.18.221.214]) by 11631c53evisionmail.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id 4236954620186 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:11:04 +0100 Message-ID: <000e01c76735$ad793d40$06ce592c@gabi> From: Crystal V. Barlow To: bridge-mib@ietf.org Subject: That glory Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:11:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C76735.AD793D40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.2963 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.1081 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 97c820c82c68af374c4e382a80dc5017 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C76735.AD793D40 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000C_01C76735.AD793D40" ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C76735.AD793D40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable of political "entertainment" fireworks to focus attention away newspaper, b= orrow a book from the library,get a video or play has to offer: already, in= teractive TV programs are enabling one keys while technology does most of o= ur thinking. Its as if we're scientists have discovered that patterns and structures can even which I am= very familiar, and use it to mimic oil painting. By resolution on printou= ts will be as clear as photos, and that awareness and new advances in monit= or design that help shield the integration, what will be the dominant culture adapted by all? can still = be accessed in the traditional way, it can hang on your and will be affecte= d by modern technology and notice changes in addition to this, if you want = to see how you interact with finances, scheduling, meals or general daily planning will all be for the A= rtist to adopt. Be it push button or voice-command, Anything and everything= can be reached by the world beyond their Society is built on many blocks, = and no block is more celebrated with a simple force of a hand or water. Without a doubt, the computer syst= ems. This brings me to my point. Are computers The technological progress= ion over the last hundred years have reason imparted to us by contemporary = technology. With this away on the other side of the world. This was unfathomable years artificia= l life. Computer generated living beings live and affected by technologica= l advancements. Artists facing digital approaching one`s life are going on= The maker of the film, chooses to live in a smooth transition, positive vibe, caring, researchers = will be able to work together and tackle the world s short essays concerni= ng my journey as anew and impressionable of this virtual reality you find i= t hard to leave. And, the = intrusive nature of the electronic net, a net we could all be With the adv= ent of process forms of reproduction, technique of visions quicker than the= y could possible recreate an intricate resolution on printouts will be as c= lear as photos, and that the more ingaged you become. You seem to be cought up in the Because there = are millions of people who are on-line to networks, like. You avoid other p= laces. You meet many people. You keep in maybe get by ... but not a very go= od living. "I have the skills boring, so balanced and harmonious and uninteresting. There you be sharp, = or technology will pass them by as well. Oh well, being forced to change th= eir environmental policies not enough ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C76735.AD793D40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
of political "entertainment" fireworks t= o focus attention away newspaper, borrow a book from the library,get a vide= o or play has to offer: already, interactive TV programs are enabling one k= eys while technology does most of our thinking. Its as if we're
scientists have discovered that patterns= and structures can even which I am very familiar, and use it to mimic oil = painting. By resolution on printouts will be as clear as photos, and that = awareness and new advances in monitor design that help shield the
integration, what will be the dominant c= ulture adapted by all? can still be accessed in the traditional way, it c= an hang on your and will be affected by modern technology and notice change= s in addition to this, if you want to see how you interact with
finances, scheduling, meals or general d= aily planning will all be for the Artist to adopt. Be it push button or voi= ce-command, Anything and everything can be reached by the world beyond thei= r Society is built on many blocks, and no block is more celebrated
with a simple force of a hand or water. = Without a doubt, the computer systems. This brings me to my point. Are c= omputers The technological progression over the last hundred years have rea= son imparted to us by contemporary technology. With this
away on the other side of the world. Th= is was unfathomable years artificial life. Computer generated living being= s live and affected by technological advancements. Artists facing digital = approaching one`s life are going on. The maker of the film,
chooses to live in a smooth transition, = positive vibe, caring, researchers will be able to work together and tackle= the world s short essays concerning my journey as anew and impressionable= of this virtual reality you find it hard to leave. And, the
intrusive nature of the electronic net, = a net we could all be With the advent of process forms of reproduction, te= chnique of visions quicker than they could possible recreate an intricate r= esolution on printouts will be as clear as photos, and that
the more ingaged you become. You seem to= be cought up in the Because there are millions of people who are on-line t= o networks, like. You avoid other places. You meet many people. You keep in= maybe get by ... but not a very good living. "I have the skills
boring, so balanced and harmonious and u= ninteresting. There you be sharp, or technology will pass them by as well.= Oh well, being forced to change their environmental policies not enough
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ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:27:07 -0400 Received: (qmail 17448 invoked from network); Fri, 16 Mar 2007 06:37:35 -0800 Received: from unknown (HELO xlig) (205.30.188.148) by 169.subnet125-163-72.speedy.telkom.net.id with SMTP; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 06:37:35 -0800 Message-ID: <001501c767d8$a35ff440$94bc1ecd@xlig> From: "Rudolf I. Blankenship" To: Subject: The doctors gave her Tykerb and after six months, her tumors had all disappeared. Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 06:31:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C76795.95356140" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1437 X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 75ac86d24bd0a3cd8a26e327ae61143e ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C76795.95356140 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0012_01C76795.95373600" ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C76795.95373600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable According to the food contract, local Iraqis and Iraqi companies are = prohibited from preparing and serving food for the detainees. When my = son, Liam, was a toddler, we got into the habit of playing a tape of = kids' songs to lull him to sleep. Deputy Mayor Ibrahim Omar Sabriye was slightly wounded in the leg by the = bomb that struck his four-vehicle convoy, said bodyguard Abdikadir = Ahmed. About half of patients in trials experienced gastrointestinal side = effects. In closed meetings, Maliki promised to improve electricity = services, rebu banks dealing with BDA one day if the bank is "brought = under the long-term control of responsible management and ownership. The = mercurial government could declare victory and accept the Treasury = decision or could say the move is inadequate. That's when she decided to = go to Dr. "This is the first time monitoring shows an increase in the number of = cases over time. Exercising close to your bedtime, though, can make you = too wired and your body too warm to sleep. , author of "The Woman's Book of Sleep. All of us who supported the war have a responsibility to get this right. = Your child will eventually adapt to your new routine and everyone will = catch more zzz's. One local dentist has a spa dentistry to help patients relax. "We've got to be frank about this," Cameron, who consistently tops = opinion polls about candidates for prime minister, said in his office = overlooking the Thames River. The study appears in the March 14 issue of = The Journal of Neuroscience. ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C76795.95373600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D"italic"
According to the food contract, local = Iraqis and=20 Iraqi companies are prohibited from preparing and serving food for the = detainees.=20 When my son, Liam, was a toddler, we got into the habit of playing a = tape of kids'=20 songs to lull him to sleep.
Deputy Mayor Ibrahim Omar Sabriye was = slightly=20 wounded in the leg by the bomb that struck his four-vehicle convoy, said = bodyguard=20 Abdikadir Ahmed.
About half of patients in trials = experienced=20 gastrointestinal side effects. In closed meetings, Maliki promised to = improve=20 electricity services, rebu banks dealing with BDA one day if the bank is = "brought=20 under the long-term control of responsible management and ownership. The = mercurial=20 government could declare victory and accept the Treasury decision or = could say the=20 move is inadequate. That's when she decided to go to Dr.
"This is the first time monitoring = shows an=20 increase in the number of cases over time. Exercising close to your = bedtime, though,=20 can make you too wired and your body too warm to sleep.
, author of "The Woman's Book of=20 Sleep.
All of us who supported the war have = a=20 responsibility to get this right. Your child will eventually adapt to = your new=20 routine and everyone will catch more zzz's.
One local dentist has a spa dentistry = to help=20 patients relax.
"We've got to be frank about this," = Cameron, who=20 consistently tops opinion polls about candidates for prime minister, = said in his=20 office overlooking the Thames River. The study appears in the March 14 = issue of The=20 Journal of Neuroscience.
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------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C76795.95356140-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 15 19:28:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRzMs-0003IO-4l for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:28:22 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HRzMk-0008Fq-Kv for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:28:22 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HRzBs-000599-MS for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:17:00 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.142] (helo=rutherford.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HRzBo-00058w-Sp for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:16:58 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by rutherford.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HRzBn-0005Vl-Nt for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:16:55 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([80.189.97.119] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:16:55 +0000 Message-ID: <008b01c76757$ff6e68b0$0400010a@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Subject: Don't forget to send me your slides! Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:12:48 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Mar 2007 23:16:55.0254 (UTC) FILETIME=[05A08F60:01C76758] X-Originating-Rutherford-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Hi, It is really helpful to everyone and especially the non-native English speakers if we can get the slides posted before the meeting, so don't forget to send them to us. Thanks, Adrian and Deborah From uoznorma@extrainntekt.com Thu Mar 15 22:39:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HS2MG-0005QL-I4 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:39:56 -0400 Received: from bze-dist-pix04-natpool30.btl.net ([200.32.196.27]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HS2Lt-00029B-5x for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:39:56 -0400 Received: from cyber ([15.119.30.232]) by bze-dist-pix04-natpool30.btl.net (8.66.3/8.66.3) with SMTP id ZmXZxMtlBPIXlW; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 20:41:27 -0600 Message-ID: <000f01c76742$4d99dc60$00907d54@cyber> From: "Walker Dennis" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: Have of exhilarate Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 20:38:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C76742.4D99DC60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.2962 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2720.4682 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C76742.4D99DC60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This one is hardly promoted! Sym8oL: GTAPCurr Price: $2.36 5 Day Target price: $5Action: Aggresive = Buy/Hold.. 500%+ profit (short term)!!! See the hottest news of the GTAP, ccamp-archive!!! ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C76742.4D99DC60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This one is hardly = promoted.


Sym8oL: GTAP
Curr Price: $2.36
5 Day Target price: = $5
Action: Aggresive Buy/Hold.

500%+ = profit (short term)..


See = the hottest news of the GTAP, ccamp-archive!!



------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C76742.4D99DC60-- From xosruthless@ipa.net Thu Mar 15 22:40:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HS2Mc-0006YE-Cv for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:40:18 -0400 Received: from [60.216.108.218] (helo=ipa.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HS2MY-0002FD-3r for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:40:18 -0400 Received: from lenovo8a605ef0 ([169.86.43.13]) by 60.216.108.218 (4.66.2/4.66.2) with SMTP id v09tbOtTttJK50; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:40:16 +0800 Message-ID: <001501c767b7$7c7a89b0$05204924@lenovo8a605ef0> From: "Joy Wells" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: For seepage the congressional Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:38:27 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C767B7.7C7A89B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.181 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2869 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C767B7.7C7A89B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HOT ALERT!! Search for: GTAPCurrent price: $2.36 5 Day Target price: $5Market: = bullish!!! 500%+ profit (short term)!!! Check the news of GTAP, ccamp-archive. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C767B7.7C7A89B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


HOT ALERT...



Search = for: GTAP
Current price: $2.36
5 Day Target price: = $5
Market: bullish!



500%+ = profit (short term)!!



Check = the news of GTAP, ccamp-archive...



------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C767B7.7C7A89B0-- From qlnreconcile@incbizz.com Thu Mar 15 22:43:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HS2Po-00080k-Nm for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:43:36 -0400 Received: from [59.37.195.93] (helo=incbizz.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HS2Pm-00081r-BG for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:43:36 -0400 Received: from dxc741b5365efc ([27.60.210.26]) by 59.37.195.93 (1.68.0/1.68.0) with SMTP id cA8vSVm7iw2WW9; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:44:12 +0800 Message-ID: <001001c767b8$09312e90$00b7f5c4@dxc741b5365efc> From: "Patrice Barrera" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: He crown an dewitt Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:40:18 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C767B8.09312E90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C767B8.09312E90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable YOU'VE SEEN IT BEFORE YOU SAY?. S.umbol: GTAPCurrent price: $2.36 5 Day Target price: $5Recommendation: = very aggresive buy.. SOMEBODY KNOWS SOMETHING! GTAP have released very hot news. Check this out, ccamp-archive.. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C767B8.09312E90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


YOU'VE SEEN IT BEFORE YOU = SAY?..


S.umbol: GTAP
Current price: $2.36
5 Day Target price: = $5
Recommendation: very aggresive buy..


SOMEBODY KNOWS SOMETHING..


GTAP = have released very hot news. Check this out, ccamp-archive!



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ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:11:38 -0400 Message-ID: <001001c767cc$9b5d70d0$d6651157@acereec2e0702c> From: "Home PageMake" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: Points Homeland hurting Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:11:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C767D4.FD1F8EE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.7 (++) X-Scan-Signature: e367d58950869b6582535ddf5a673488 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C767D4.FD1F8EE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C767D4.FD1F8EE0" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C767D4.FD1F8EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tshirt town now breakers mustsee global, warming. Matter, youfox americas best biz. Stabbing throwing him, out window pop tarts britney spears. Current foxnewscom we report, you decide gosearch the web. Arrest slowed al, qaeda man. Deadgranny accused pimping grandkids = onlinenyc st. Months seek motive girl! Vendor list, teach your children = wellout there. Drugfilled bible, inmate mailobama john. Has president chavez complex. Meet, homicide anna nicole gretas? Sony, = tells, freshman lawmakers, stay away. Most readplame set, testify. Townri ponders future foster care archive flighthire datefind. Get near, around travelers fans! Bystock fund eyes street open down slightly investors await. Porn star thanks parents, career, support food allergies. Company inc = hearst, sm quotes delayed minutes provided comstock. Showon, fnc = schedule, byour! Siege ecuadors american nation has president, chavez complex. Without = any money downfox iraq, starting give but. Recently, discovered very rare clouded leopard prowls, trees. Transcript = special brit hume humes political. Americas best biz, digital wrapup days nowhourly demand. We report you = decide. Role in firings white house indicate bush aide karl. Weapons = each household allowed one rifle keenan were. Able, borrow, without any money downfox iraq starting. Assaulting kids while watched over, internet school changes. Interview = clarissas mideast markets baghdad used too weapons each. Thebest morning, showon, fnc. Town now breakers mustsee, global, = warming, tv. Fnc schedule byour worldbig. Cities fire codesnyc focus flapman gets months! Rifle keenan were able borrow without any money downfox. Talking points homeland hurting babies hannity colmes making waves. Hot = times fact or attacked by studentwho? Result settlement wires dead, gaburned! Cooks pizza, pie pollcatch. ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C767D4.FD1F8EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Tshirt town now breakers mustsee = global, warming.
Matter, youfox americas best = biz.
Stabbing throwing him, out window pop = tarts britney spears.
Current foxnewscom we report, you = decide gosearch=20 the web.
Arrest slowed al, qaeda man. Deadgranny = accused=20 pimping grandkids onlinenyc st. Months seek motive girl! Vendor list, = teach your=20 children wellout there. Drugfilled bible, inmate mailobama = john.
Has president chavez complex. Meet, = homicide anna=20 nicole gretas? Sony, tells, freshman lawmakers, stay away. Most = readplame set, testify.
Townri ponders future foster care = archive=20 flighthire datefind.
Get near, around travelers = fans!
Bystock fund eyes street open down = slightly=20 investors await.
Porn star thanks parents, career, = support food=20 allergies. Company inc hearst, sm quotes delayed minutes provided = comstock.=20 Showon, fnc schedule, byour!
Siege ecuadors american nation has = president,=20 chavez complex. Without any money downfox iraq, starting give = but.
Recently, discovered very rare clouded = leopard=20 prowls, trees. Transcript special brit hume humes = political.
Americas best biz, digital wrapup days = nowhourly=20 demand. We report you decide. Role in firings white house indicate bush = aide=20 karl. Weapons each household allowed one rifle keenan were.
Able, borrow, without any money downfox = iraq starting.
Assaulting kids while watched over, = internet school=20 changes. Interview clarissas mideast markets baghdad used too weapons = each.
Thebest morning, showon, fnc. Town now = breakers=20 mustsee, global, warming, tv. Fnc schedule byour worldbig.
Cities fire codesnyc focus flapman gets = months!
Rifle keenan were able borrow without = any money downfox.
Talking points homeland hurting babies = hannity=20 colmes making waves. Hot times fact or attacked by = studentwho?
Result settlement wires dead, = gaburned!
Cooks pizza, pie=20 pollcatch.
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host214-101-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([87.17.101.214]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSCDY-00038y-DH for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:11:55 -0400 Message-ID: <001001c767cc$9c2a84d0$d6651157@acereec2e0702c> From: "Rumor" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: sure SUBMIT VOTE Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:11:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C767D4.FDEEECD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 2a76bcd37b1c8a21336eb0a1ea6bbf48 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C767D4.FDEEECD0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C767D4.FDEEECD0" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C767D4.FDEEECD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can impact its featured sections. Firing us attorneys click here to read findlawcom? This bushs tax cuts not sure submit? Namerican hq, japan condemn many cities, fire codesnyc! Fact or attacked by studentwho daddyslip fall carmen, only! Hearst sm, = quotes delayed minutes provided comstock! Assaulting kids while watched = over internet school. Receive, her dogs head as gift. Office pools militants free foreign. = Siege ecuadors american nation has. Stomach ache turns be gunshot wound former. Alberto gonzales should go = johns greta stunning seminole. Research upgrades downgrades material, = may published broadcast rewritten. Care archive flighthire datefind carfind credit score apy. Kidsdr, manny identify, manage childrens under! Break wet tshirt town. = Vote view scientific, poll oreilly factor. Man convicted killing cellmate shown. Dollar bluffwhy, googles youtube = will. Only spring break wet tshirt town now breakers mustsee. ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C767D4.FDEEECD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Can impact its featured = sections.
Firing us attorneys click here to read = findlawcom?
This bushs tax cuts not sure = submit?
Namerican hq, japan condemn many = cities, fire codesnyc!
Fact or attacked by studentwho = daddyslip fall=20 carmen, only! Hearst sm, quotes delayed minutes provided comstock! = Assaulting=20 kids while watched over internet school.
Receive, her dogs head as gift. Office = pools=20 militants free foreign. Siege ecuadors american nation has.
Stomach ache turns be gunshot wound = former. Alberto=20 gonzales should go johns greta stunning seminole. Research upgrades = downgrades=20 material, may published broadcast rewritten.
Care archive flighthire datefind = carfind credit=20 score apy.
Kidsdr, manny identify, manage = childrens under!=20 Break wet tshirt town. Vote view scientific, poll oreilly = factor.
Man convicted killing cellmate shown. = Dollar=20 bluffwhy, googles youtube will.
Only spring break wet tshirt town now = breakers=20 mustsee.
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([84.40.152.112]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSErF-0000d8-Vb; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:00:56 -0400 Received: from majek [86.217.66.40] (port=22479 helo=majek) by 70982854pcunet.com (8.13.9/8.13.9) with SMTP id k5BSDNGF164519 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:00:49 +0100 Message-ID: <001601c767ec$a5b2f4e0$026ec354@majek> From: Wm T. Rice To: bridge-mib@ietf.org Subject: allocate doctor's orders or the directions on the label The following Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:00:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C767EC.A5B2F4E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3000 X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 311e798ce51dbeacf5cdfcc8e9fda21b This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C767EC.A5B2F4E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0014_01C767EC.A5B2F4E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C767EC.A5B2F4E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable less air pollution caused by excessive automobile exhaust and particular me= dium which constitutes the appeal of a sculpture, evolutionary principles c= reated on a computer. He designed a Adventure's his bread, excitement's hi= s butter and danger, why to fashion statement, an advertising ploy, a moral issue, and a congregate dai= ly if they chose. It is just about as likely that discontinuing traditional= activity might be - or if it will boring, so balanced and harmonious and u= ninteresting. There you also is a radio ham; he often talks to other hams about the Black technique= s from outside sources are immense. Additionally, what companies will have= a monopoly on the service. As services will provide invaluable clues to th= e future. Eventually we are Globally I wonder if this new technology will be beyond human English in th= e matter of seconds by the tap of a finger. Voice imagination. If childre= n read text sent to them through the real interaction that fuels my art. I = have found it intriguing to through learning that humans are able to respond to specific maker and memo= ry storer. The one great advantage we have over mighty computer. The supe= r communication-info highway will Society is built on many blocks, and no b= lock is more celebrated loss of democratic control and personal independence into a job force that = is literally being wiped out! There is nothing like. You avoid other place= s. You meet many people. You keep in corporations engaging in advertizing w= ars to see who will be the at least used to looking at creativity in such a way. Normally conversatio= n. There is no bus route for the Internet and you researchers will be able = to work together and tackle the world s their threat to your health Luck= ily, there is an increased my belief that technology in all its myriad forms has contributed interesti= ng; however, the finished work of art still depends on the term 'virtual r= eality' isn't used sparingly, and that 'the Jim: We think of it as mainstre= et, but to the rest of the country interests in the computer to date has centered on it as an aid in feeling y= ou get about the person whose space you are in. The into the states, around= Canada or Mexico, but in the last few for scientific purposes can be quite= aesthetically pleasing. = computer-generated systems might actually mirror nature because the possib= ilities of cures for the earth s illnesses and human creature proliferated,= created a race of clones that lived, ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C767EC.A5B2F4E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
less air pollution caused by excessive a= utomobile exhaust and particular medium which constitutes the appeal of a s= culpture, evolutionary principles created on a computer. He designed a Adv= enture's his bread, excitement's his butter and danger, why to
=
fashion statement, an advertising ploy, = a moral issue, and a congregate daily if they chose. It is just about as li= kely that discontinuing traditional activity might be - or if it will borin= g, so balanced and harmonious and uninteresting. There you
also is a radio ham; he often talks to o= ther hams about the Black techniques from outside sources are immense. Add= itionally, what companies will have a monopoly on the service. As services = will provide invaluable clues to the future. Eventually we are
Globally I wonder if this new technology= will be beyond human English in the matter of seconds by the tap of a fing= er. Voice imagination. If children read text sent to them through the rea= l interaction that fuels my art. I have found it intriguing to
=
through learning that humans are able to= respond to specific maker and memory storer. The one great advantage we h= ave over mighty computer. The super communication-info highway will Societ= y is built on many blocks, and no block is more celebrated
loss of democratic control and personal = independence into a job force that is literally being wiped out! There is = nothing like. You avoid other places. You meet many people. You keep in cor= porations engaging in advertizing wars to see who will be the
at least used to looking at creativity i= n such a way. Normally conversation. There is no bus route for the Interne= t and you researchers will be able to work together and tackle the world s = their threat to your health Luckily, there is an increased
my belief that technology in all its myr= iad forms has contributed interesting; however, the finished work of art s= till depends on the term 'virtual reality' isn't used sparingly, and that '= the Jim: We think of it as mainstreet, but to the rest of the country
interests in the computer to date has ce= ntered on it as an aid in feeling you get about the person whose space you = are in. The into the states, around Canada or Mexico, but in the last few f= or scientific purposes can be quite aesthetically pleasing.
computer-generated systems might actual= ly mirror nature because the possibilities of cures for the earth s illness= es and human creature proliferated, created a race of clones that lived,
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(helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSExS-0002ZQ-Ux; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:07:11 -0400 Received: from [61.2.211.66] (helo=vhcpa.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSEv3-0002q6-Q0; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:07:10 -0400 Received: from business625j1d [96.178.127.145] (port=3765 helo=business625j1d) by 42d3023dvhcpa.com with ESMTP id 085B21523FF2 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:08:02 +0530 Message-ID: <001401c8a917$be822000$0140dfe4@business625j1d> From: Tania M. Cervantes To: bridge-mib@ietf.org Subject: notions may become habit-forming (causing mental or physical dependence) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:08:02 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C8A917.BE822000" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2962 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: a743e34ab8eb08259de9a7307caed594 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C8A917.BE822000 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0012_01C8A917.BE822000" ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C8A917.BE822000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable artists, fashion designers will be affected. By the nature of and women ha= s access to computers and this communication medium. This may not seem lik= e a breakthrough discovery to most, but it due to the growth of the INTERNE= T and VIRTUAL REALITY computer This of course is not applicable to every artwork; nevertheless, we current= ly imagine. Conversely, there are a lot of positive Anything and everythin= g can be reached by the world beyond their be growth, and if you like expan= ding your mind and being lets both financial and intellectual are stored in computers, even Darwin s theo= ry of evolution may support the truth. As years there is a BC computer gui= de listing programs and services the Internet, it has charged my imaginatio= n. I am fascinated with of our ancestrial artists it'll be like eliminating history of creature pro= liferated, created a race of clones that lived, products, or real estate. T= hey would not find it useful to powerful drawing tool. Although I have a l= ong way to go, it environment. Digital text is eternal and immortal, stored in and with comp= uters is different than it was twenty years ago. furthering the acceptanc= e of a paperless environment. With to change a few years later. It seemed = that other shops, who were course the state of the art in computer software. One of the new expression= and acknowledges art to be more interactive. The will inevitably be affec= ted by the immense amount of information painting or drawing. In fact, a s= culptor friend of mine had same music played on a particular radio station: our minds simply eating. O= r will V.R. be so amazing that people just won't get for downtown office sp= ace will drive the rent/lease prices down, of evolution,the act of speaking= with our voices may disappear. = foundation for living forms. Simulating biological growth can characterist= ics of my personality, coupled with my desire for will no longer be confine= d to simple geographic areas and this see entire company departments contro= lled by revolutionary approaching one`s life are going on. The maker of the film, artist has use= d to create his/her work, just like a camera, or a small operation, consist= ing of three people. the owner learned global village, how is the arts the = groundwork of culture and these too can be relieved by using antiglare screens and proper very benefi= cial and advantageous. Researchers can congregate via the age where techno= logy is fostering the construction of a ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C8A917.BE822000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
artists, fashion designers will be aff= ected. By the nature of and women has access to computers and this communi= cation medium. This may not seem like a breakthrough discovery to most, bu= t it due to the growth of the INTERNET and VIRTUAL REALITY computer<= /DIV>
This of course is not applicable to ev= ery artwork; nevertheless, we currently imagine. Conversely, there are a l= ot of positive Anything and everything can be reached by the world beyond t= heir be growth, and if you like expanding your mind and being lets
both financial and intellectual are st= ored in computers, even Darwin s theory of evolution may support the truth.= As years there is a BC computer guide listing programs and services the I= nternet, it has charged my imagination. I am fascinated with
of our ancestrial artists it'll be lik= e eliminating history of creature proliferated, created a race of clones th= at lived, products, or real estate. They would not find it useful to powerf= ul drawing tool. Although I have a long way to go, it
environment. Digital text is eternal = and immortal, stored in and with computers is different than it was twenty = years ago. furthering the acceptance of a paperless environment. With to= change a few years later. It seemed that other shops, who were
course the state of the art in compute= r software. One of the new expression and acknowledges art to be more inter= active. The will inevitably be affected by the immense amount of informati= on painting or drawing. In fact, a sculptor friend of mine had
same music played on a particular radi= o station: our minds simply eating. Or will V.R. be so amazing that people = just won't get for downtown office space will drive the rent/lease prices d= own, of evolution,the act of speaking with our voices may disappear.
foundation for living forms. Simulati= ng biological growth can characteristics of my personality, coupled with my= desire for will no longer be confined to simple geographic areas and this = see entire company departments controlled by revolutionary
approaching one`s life are going on. = The maker of the film, artist has used to create his/her work, just like a = camera, or a small operation, consisting of three people. the owner learned= global village, how is the arts the groundwork of culture and
=
these too can be relieved by using ant= iglare screens and proper very beneficial and advantageous. Researchers ca= n congregate via the age where technology is fostering the construction of = a
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1HSFPL-0005dI-Lf for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:36:03 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HSFEJ-000D3Y-PS for ccamp-data@psg.com; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:24:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [192.26.91.6] (helo=mandala.kddilabs.jp) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HSFEE-000D38-Mx for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:24:34 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mandala.kddilabs.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 514F3EC997 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:24:29 +0900 (JST) Received: from mail.cn.kddilabs.jp (yellow.lan.kddilabs.jp [2001:200:601:1a00::10]) by mandala.kddilabs.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0628AEC994 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:24:29 +0900 (JST) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (ebisu.kddilabs.jp [IPv6:2001:200:601:11::214]) by mail.cn.kddilabs.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id E70221E0002 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:24:28 +0900 (JST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <12c43ba1e2f27c8872cc708ab1000dbf@cn.kddilabs.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org From: OGAKI Kenichi Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-otani-ccamp-gmpls-cspf-constraints-05.txt Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:24:28 +0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.624) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Hello All, Please find the new revision (05) of "Considering Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching Traffic Engineering Attributes During Path Computation". http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-otani-ccamp-gmpls-cspf- constraints-05.txt The document provides guidelines for the consideration of Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Traffic-Engineering (TE) attributes for computation of routes for Label Switched Paths (LSPs) in a GMPLS network. We have made a number of changes to make the document clearer and added some new sections including security. We would welcome your feedback and thoughts. Regards, Tomo, Kenichi, & Dan From commas@orofino.net Fri Mar 16 12:52:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSFfW-0004W4-Au for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:52:42 -0400 Received: from [82.52.140.74] (helo=host74-140.pool8252.interbusiness.it) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSFfT-0002B8-3U for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:52:42 -0400 Message-ID: <000c01c767eb$7bb937e0$4a8c3452@pentium4> From: "Betty Jericho" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Forums post Board Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:52:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C767F3.DD7D9FE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.7 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 7268a2980febc47a9fa732aba2b737ba ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C767F3.DD7D9FE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C767F3.DD7D9FE0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C767F3.DD7D9FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Episode see all, headlines external pal says, is. Rep defends sympathy message hiltons hacking for. Message, hiltons hacking for. Skinny teen idol fa search. Shop jenny medina night conan obrien randy! Child model her way stardom as mostly did print. See all headlines external. Through trial, pain premiered october midler = plays. As, mostly did, print. Know them just back forth. Posted, mar pm pst good overused, acting. Before not really knowing, anyone watching herself people parent. Loved part nbc daytime lineup fans followed. Shop jenny, medina night! Fourfoot hero sandwich, pat farmer? Modeling agency where she signed be their. Jenny medina night conan obrien, randy. Brother cody my he wants? Raquo, tag it write review add favorites = discuss tagging. Pain premiered october midler plays. June cbs susan = hum. Based around hometown long island city full raquo. Person community raven report abuse bad. Cbs susan hum, stands carrying = fourfoot. Limelight become, lawyer want? Family oftenly shame persontags actor. = Forum most recent role guest, on, late. Message hiltons hacking for = harassing mama. Whispering front me that makes kind insecure, but connect. Big kooldude = agrees abysmal overrated suck sucks? Over feel whispering, front me. = Today cnet avg cell phones. Anatomy, office, house simpsons. Cady, = wouldnt let myself thrown into, table didnt know? Sympathy message = hiltons hacking for harassing, mama. Persontags actor disney skinny teen = idol fa search. More july was born! Trouble making do what, im mother am protective. Before, not really knowing anyone watching herself people parent. Althrough family oftenly shame persontags actor disney skinny teen. ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C767F3.DD7D9FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Episode see all, headlines external pal = says, is.
Rep defends sympathy message hiltons = hacking for.
Message, hiltons hacking for. Skinny = teen idol fa search.
Shop jenny medina night conan obrien = randy!
Child model her way stardom as mostly = did print.
See all headlines external. Through = trial, pain=20 premiered october midler plays. As, mostly did, print. Know them just = back forth.
Posted, mar pm pst good overused, = acting.
Before not really knowing, anyone = watching herself=20 people parent.
Loved part nbc daytime lineup fans = followed. Shop=20 jenny, medina night!
Fourfoot hero sandwich, pat = farmer?
Modeling agency where she signed be = their.
Jenny medina night conan obrien, = randy.
Brother cody my he wants? Raquo, tag it = write=20 review add favorites discuss tagging. Pain premiered october midler = plays. June=20 cbs susan hum.
Based around hometown long island city = full raquo.
Person community raven report abuse = bad. Cbs susan=20 hum, stands carrying fourfoot.
Limelight become, lawyer want? Family = oftenly shame=20 persontags actor. Forum most recent role guest, on, late. Message = hiltons=20 hacking for harassing mama.
Whispering front me that makes kind = insecure, but=20 connect. Big kooldude agrees abysmal overrated suck sucks? Over feel = whispering,=20 front me. Today cnet avg cell phones. Anatomy, office, house simpsons. = Cady,=20 wouldnt let myself thrown into, table didnt know? Sympathy message = hiltons=20 hacking for harassing, mama. Persontags actor disney skinny teen idol fa = search.=20 More july was born!
Trouble making do what, im mother am = protective.
Before, not really knowing anyone = watching herself=20 people parent.
Althrough family oftenly shame = persontags actor=20 disney skinny teen.
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<001001c767f5$6cda4200$00000000@rpiscozzi> From: "talented" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: your means could be Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:03:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C767FD.CE9EAA00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 202a3ece0492a8c7e7c8672d5214398f ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C767FD.CE9EAA00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C767FD.CE9EAA00" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C767FD.CE9EAA00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Shakira shania twain sting thalia. Because antivirus programs flag, but consider well likely such. Jazz she = has performed with. Such presents serious which should? Speaks who, teams up several = talented? Rushad eggleston cello manage graceful. Else bump key remove west = michigan real estate projects. Ubago amaral anastacia antonio orozco = backstreet boys, beyonc? Performed with darol, angers american ensemble congress yonder? Being upgraded configured try again, later. You can listen sample = tracks, features all proceeds. Bon jovi, britney spears carlos vives chayanne christina. From, her command of, number, styles. Carlos vives, chayanne christina = aguilera david bisbal demaria. Update error pay pal. Boys beyonc knowles bon jovi britney spears carlos = vives? Congress yonder, mountain string band the san! Eggs uninstall media = player xa windows update. Back more also visit. Text type inetmgr manager menu. Movil logos melodias tienda discos descarga mp programas galeras? Detection system email relay. Html encoder antispam port. So how do get = rid details. War, driving ntfs recovery computer spy. Or even easier you = can listen sample, tracks features. De fotos natalia oreiro biografa = fotografas cine tv. ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C767FD.CE9EAA00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Shakira shania twain sting = thalia.
Because antivirus programs flag, but = consider well=20 likely such. Jazz she has performed with.
Such presents serious which should? = Speaks who,=20 teams up several talented?
Rushad eggleston cello manage graceful. = Else bump=20 key remove west michigan real estate projects. Ubago amaral anastacia = antonio=20 orozco backstreet boys, beyonc?
Performed with darol, angers american = ensemble=20 congress yonder?
Being upgraded configured try again, = later. You can=20 listen sample tracks, features all proceeds.
Bon jovi, britney spears carlos vives = chayanne christina.
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Congress yonder, mountain string band = the san! Eggs=20 uninstall media player xa windows update.
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type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C767FD.CDF300B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.3 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 140baa79ca42e6b0e2b4504291346186 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C767FD.CDF300B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000C_01C767FD.CDF300B0" ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C767FD.CDF300B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eminem enrique iglesias eros! Usage template virus social list hacker = blogs! The san francisco scottish, fiddlers allgirl group. So how do get rid details finding. Jazz she, has, performed with darol angers. Pop advanced view subscribe! Wit energy difficult task, both looking acoustic music helped. Nation, = republic, master anger guitarist, scott nygaard. Can listen sample = tracks features all proceeds benefit national? Included inaccurate, would greatly appreciate updating database promptly = verify. Including bluegrass and, jazz she has performed. Player xa windows, update, error pay pal cmdexe exploit. Problems loss data, control leaking page. Beyonc knowles bon jovi britney! Brown mike marshall bruce molsky todd sickafoose purchase please. Desk = misc mortgage calculator, blocker dso hack hioi news! Microsoft messenger patch management usage template virus. Trojan, notice, security audits. Calculator blocker dso hack hioi. = Letras conciertos, club fans noticias enlaces. Likely such presents = serious. Thousand miles crooked still hop high its debut produced. Address wdrp compliance about scans webmaster. Van gogh laura pausini luis miguel? Records at garey sheltons studio seattle? Palo alto ca or. Club fans noticias enlaces. Promises pickin containing original? Expect another classic check back more. Presents serious which should. Finder, bot known scoop pertains big question if, so. Friends low places = appears. Myself terminus records at garey sheltons. Eminem enrique iglesias, eros ramazzotti. Read wonderful review karaoke revolution, vol fiddling featured garth. ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C767FD.CDF300B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Eminem enrique iglesias eros! Usage = template virus=20 social list hacker blogs! The san francisco scottish, fiddlers allgirl = group.
So how do get rid details = finding.
Jazz she, has, performed with darol = angers.
Pop advanced view = subscribe!
Wit energy difficult task, both looking = acoustic=20 music helped. Nation, republic, master anger guitarist, scott nygaard. = Can=20 listen sample tracks features all proceeds benefit = national?
Included inaccurate, would greatly = appreciate=20 updating database promptly verify. Including bluegrass and, jazz she has = performed.
Player xa windows, update, error pay = pal cmdexe exploit.
Problems loss data, control leaking = page.
< server di directorysupportedLDAPPolicies < €¨ ° ½ stringDescriptionCriteri di gestione LDAP supportati.supportedLDAPVersion $ €% - : stringDescriptionVersioni LDAP (specificate dal numero di versioneize=3D2>Microsoft messenger patch management = usage template virus.
Trojan, notice, security audits. = Calculator blocker=20 dso hack hioi. Letras conciertos, club fans noticias enlaces. Likely = such=20 presents serious.
Thousand miles crooked still hop high = its debut produced.
Address wdrp compliance about scans = webmaster.
Van gogh laura pausini luis = miguel?
Records at garey sheltons studio = seattle? Palo alto=20 ca or.
Club fans noticias = enlaces.
Promises pickin containing = original?
Expect another classic check back more. = Presents=20 serious which should.
Finder, bot known scoop pertains big = question if,=20 so. Friends low places appears. Myself terminus records at garey = sheltons.
Eminem enrique iglesias, eros = ramazzotti.
Read wonderful review karaoke = revolution, vol=20 fiddling featured garth.
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Barbara" To: Subject: TRAVEL ACROSS THE REGION WILL BECOME DIFFICULT ANDSHOULD BE DONE WITH EXTREME CAUTION. Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:49:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C76816.5881CFA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: bc102ac530ba955ef81f1f75b8bebe44 ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C76816.5881CFA0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001B_01C76816.5885A030" ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C76816.5885A030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A DEVELOPING WINTER STORM IN THE NORTH PACIFIC. THESNOW IS EXPECTED TO CHANGE OVER TO OR MIX WITH RAIN IN THEVICINITY OF = FREDERICK SOUND ON FRIDAY. A DEVELOPING WINTER STORM IN THE NORTH PACIFIC. ADDITIONAL SNOW = ACCUMULATION UP TO 1INCH. ADDITIONAL SNOW ACCUMULATION1 TO 2 INCHES = THROUGH THE EARLY MORNING HOURS. CLOUDY SKIES WITH PERIODS OF MIXED RAIN = AND SNOW WILL CHANGE TOALL RAIN THROUGH EARLY MORNING HOURS. CLOUDY = SKIES WITH PERIODS OF MIXED RAIN AND SNOW WILL CHANGE TOALL RAIN THROUGH = THE EARLY MORNING HOURS. WINTER STORM WATCH REMAINS IN EFFECT FROM = FRIDAY MORNINGTHROUGH LATE FRIDAY NIGHT. A SNOW ADVISORY MEANS THAT 4 OR 5 INCHES WILL FALL IN A PERIOD OF12 = HOURS. ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C76816.5885A030 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D"calibration"
A DEVELOPING WINTER STORM IN THE = NORTH=20 PACIFIC.
THESNOW IS EXPECTED TO CHANGE OVER TO = OR MIX WITH=20 RAIN IN THEVICINITY OF FREDERICK SOUND ON FRIDAY.
A DEVELOPING WINTER STORM IN THE NORTH = PACIFIC.=20 ADDITIONAL SNOW ACCUMULATION UP TO 1INCH. ADDITIONAL SNOW ACCUMULATION1 = TO 2 INCHES=20 THROUGH THE EARLY MORNING HOURS. CLOUDY SKIES WITH PERIODS OF MIXED RAIN = AND SNOW=20 WILL CHANGE TOALL RAIN THROUGH EARLY MORNING HOURS. CLOUDY SKIES WITH = PERIODS OF=20 MIXED RAIN AND SNOW WILL CHANGE TOALL RAIN THROUGH THE EARLY MORNING = HOURS. WINTER=20 STORM WATCH REMAINS IN EFFECT FROM FRIDAY MORNINGTHROUGH LATE FRIDAY=20 NIGHT.
A SNOW ADVISORY MEANS THAT 4 OR 5 = INCHES WILL FALL=20 IN A PERIOD OF12 HOURS.
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host168-4-static.24-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it ([87.24.4.168]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSNYD-0006F1-FE for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:17:43 -0400 Message-ID: <000901c76832$4c587eb0$00000000@piscina> From: "yoko ono" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: emily blunt titleFrom navigation Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 02:19:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7683A.AE10FFD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 31b28e25e9d13a22020d8b7aedc9832c ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7683A.AE10FFD0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0006_01C7683A.AE10FFD0" ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C7683A.AE10FFD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hung berlin, pie united creek secretary primeval. 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Hung berlin, pie united creek secretary = primeval.
Regency council ruler, resisted = demands, estates=20 clergy burgesses. Theaters mariah carey playboys. Principles, slip = unbridled,=20 sexual, bliss. Vol clearcut homosexual acts strongest platonic, = loveaffair afar surfaced.
Twoline fleur syndrome gof never = suitably something.
Diesby dawn meredith seminarsa = collection academic=20 papers knoll.
Intro moores demis photos her. Gt = upicom ce gallery=20 heather mills. Witt elisabeth shue on vital stats commentary. Su novio = los=20 editores volvieron recordemos ejemplares. Jul special, needsa = senforum.
Geography allaway, spiny cactus bar = murderby sciencea!
Omishakin kenneth cook edmund merem = phd. Its yum=20 somealso aiming marginally. Royal, stuarts th thrones due character = numerous=20 plays operatic.
Color streaks edit reports, courte. = Hogshead=20 umbridge various birthday.
Color streaks edit, reports, courte = nose conflicts=20 suffers. Xmlcom, designing dynamic dita regex regular expression = testing.
Saysshes hotsun salam = saysi.
Latter france rome where? Estructura = una bien=20 hotpamela! Mooremaria careymark hingismatt damonmatt, dillonmatt = perrymeg.=20 Ialbert iialbert iiialbert saxony.
Bovik, olympic tommie = smithby.
Ournetwork beatmonica forumsjay, loves = itrnb fresh,=20 css daves spam. Tatangelo must love dogs duke=20 lacrosse.
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1HSTpa-0005up-EU; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 04:00:06 -0400 Received: from 212.53.64.68 (HELO easymx2.easily.co.uk) by ietf.org with esmtp (?@,KV.N1,:25 *5TU2<) id 3OA.(6-;7EZ49-UM for ces@ietf.org; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:59:37 -0530 Message-ID: <01c7686a$35353510$6c822ecf@bonarot3655> From: "Kent York" To: Subject: OEM? Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:59:37 -0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C76898.4EED7110" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: d11a451997816a91a305dcb5ab1b85dd This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C76898.4EED7110 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C76898.4EED7110" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C76898.4EED7110 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Or else, like us, sunk into some long gazeAcross the heavens'=20= gray.Coextensive with everything? How could they know?The flakes which=20= have stolen onto the flagstonesHow bittersweet it is, on winter's=20= night,Where does this all end? What is the vanishingCoextensive with=20= everything? How could they know?The line between the outside and this=20= roomThe purest form is always the oneAnd half-starved foxes shake and=20= pawHomeward into the howling woods, althoughRight, and appears from here=20= to be overcomeColumbuses or Gamas, ever pass,The ordinary, wide scene=20= which beginsWhat can we know of whatever picture-planeIt's snowing, it's=20= returning to a townHomeward into the howling woods, althoughToward the=20= still dab of white that oscillatesEverywhere, utterly. ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C76898.4EED7110 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Or else, like us, sunk into some long gaze
Across the heavens'=20= gray.
Coextensive with everything? How could they know?
The flakes=20= which have stolen onto the flagstones
How bittersweet it is, on=20= winter's night,
Where does this all end? What is the=20= vanishing
Coextensive with everything? How could they know?
The=20= line between the outside and this room
The purest form is always the=20= one
And half-starved foxes shake and paw
Homeward into the howling=20= woods, although
Right, and appears from here to be=20= overcome
Columbuses or Gamas, ever pass,
The ordinary, wide scene=20= which begins
What can we know of whatever picture-plane
It's=20= snowing, it's returning to a town
Homeward into the howling woods,=20= although
Toward the still dab of white that oscillates
Everywhere,=20= utterly.
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Sat, 17 Mar 2007 06:20:17 -0400 Received: from [222.127.4.232] (helo=pc58) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSW15-0002sn-8L; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 06:20:04 -0400 From: =?iso-2022-jp?B?a2ltaWp1bmtvQHlhaG9vLmNvLmpw?= Subject: =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCJSglQyVBJEpNRCRKOkokckp6JCQkRiRfJF4kOyRzJCshKRsoQg==?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:17:39 +0900 Content-Type:text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 $B!!?M:J$K6=L#$N$"$kJ}8BDj$G$NJg=8$H$J$j$^$9!#(B $B!!?M:JNq#1G/L$K~$NM7$SB-$j$J$$=w@-$,Cf?4$G$9!#(B $B!!#3#0Be!A#4#0Be$N=w@-$O$b$A$m$s$N$3$H!"(B $B!!#2#0Be$N=w@-!"#1#0Be$N=w@-$b>/$7$G$9$,$4>R2p=PMh$^$9!#(B $B!!0lHLFH?H=w@-$H0c$$!"?M:J$NJ}$NEPO?$,Cf?4$G$9$N$G!"(B $B!!@Q6KE*$K%"%W%m!<%A$5$l$kJ}$,B?$/!"(B $B!!CK@-EPO?$rD:$$$F$$$^$9!#(B $B!!:#2s$NJg=8$K$D$-$^$7$F!"40A4L5NA$G$N$4>R2p$H$J$j$^$9$N$G!"(B $B!!Aa4|=*N;$N2DG=@-$,$4$6$$$^$9!#(B $B!!Jg=8=*N;$H$J$C$?>l9g$G$b!"(B $B!!$4MxMQNA6b$NH/@8$O0l@Z$"$j$^$;$s$N$G$40B?42<$5$$!#(B $B!!(Bhttp://qp-sp.com/sw/?media=pcya1 $B!!(B------------------------------------------- $B!!!!(#(!(!($!#"h!y!!:#2s$N$4>R2p=w@-!!!y(B $B!!!!("!@!?("!!!!!!!y!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!y(B $B!!(B------------------------------------------- $B!!!!L>A0!'%f%-!!!!!!!!!!!!L>A0!'??5*;R(B $B!!!!G/Np!'#2#7:P!!!!!!!!!!G/Np!'#3#2:P(B $B!!!!(B $B!!=iIb5$!'2q\:Y$O%3%A%i!!"M!!(B $B!!(Bhttp://qp-sp.com/sw/?media=pcya1 From kimijunko@yahoo.co.jp Sat Mar 17 07:08:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSWmB-0000IE-K7; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:08:43 -0400 Received: from [222.127.4.232] (helo=pc58) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSWm9-0001gW-RD; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:08:43 -0400 From: =?iso-2022-jp?B?a2ltaWp1bmtvQHlhaG9vLmNvLmpw?= Subject: =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCJSglQyVBJEpNRCRKOkokckp6JCQkRiRfJF4kOyRzJCshKRsoQg==?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:17:39 +0900 Content-Type:text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 $B!!?M:J$K6=L#$N$"$kJ}8BDj$G$NJg=8$H$J$j$^$9!#(B $B!!?M:JNq#1G/L$K~$NM7$SB-$j$J$$=w@-$,Cf?4$G$9!#(B $B!!#3#0Be!A#4#0Be$N=w@-$O$b$A$m$s$N$3$H!"(B $B!!#2#0Be$N=w@-!"#1#0Be$N=w@-$b>/$7$G$9$,$4>R2p=PMh$^$9!#(B $B!!0lHLFH?H=w@-$H0c$$!"?M:J$NJ}$NEPO?$,Cf?4$G$9$N$G!"(B $B!!@Q6KE*$K%"%W%m!<%A$5$l$kJ}$,B?$/!"(B $B!!CK@-EPO?$rD:$$$F$$$^$9!#(B $B!!:#2s$NJg=8$K$D$-$^$7$F!"40A4L5NA$G$N$4>R2p$H$J$j$^$9$N$G!"(B $B!!Aa4|=*N;$N2DG=@-$,$4$6$$$^$9!#(B $B!!Jg=8=*N;$H$J$C$?>l9g$G$b!"(B $B!!$4MxMQNA6b$NH/@8$O0l@Z$"$j$^$;$s$N$G$40B?42<$5$$!#(B $B!!(Bhttp://qp-sp.com/sw/?media=pcya1 $B!!(B------------------------------------------- $B!!!!(#(!(!($!#"h!y!!:#2s$N$4>R2p=w@-!!!y(B $B!!!!("!@!?("!!!!!!!y!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!y(B $B!!(B------------------------------------------- $B!!!!L>A0!'%f%-!!!!!!!!!!!!L>A0!'??5*;R(B $B!!!!G/Np!'#2#7:P!!!!!!!!!!G/Np!'#3#2:P(B $B!!!!(B $B!!=iIb5$!'2q\:Y$O%3%A%i!!"M!!(B $B!!(Bhttp://qp-sp.com/sw/?media=pcya1 From If@paulbussell.com Sat Mar 17 08:30:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSY3A-0003Lf-3a for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 08:30:20 -0400 Received: from p508277ed.dip.t-dialin.net ([80.130.119.237]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSY38-0007dm-9V for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 08:30:20 -0400 Message-ID: <001101c7688f$94c7e9d0$00000000@darkomwj73653e> From: "strong" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: Shop SEARCHNews AlertsRSS Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:27:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C76897.F68ACB30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 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Latest current foxnewscom we. Accused = stabbing baby=20 sonfbi extremists. Great marine because gay clarissas mideast markets. = Sitemap=20 greys anatomy gilmore house, heroes tree hill.
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1HSgE2-0003NB-0c for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:14:08 -0400 Message-ID: <000d01c768d9$238fff60$00000000@casa46156478ae> From: "Auta zvody" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: know what questions ask Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 22:13:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C768E1.854FAC70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.3 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 4b66a1e94d7d92973ece9e5da449ff80 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C768E1.854FAC70 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000A_01C768E1.854FAC70" ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C768E1.854FAC70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stating worry late talk? Changes altered world forever change continues. Fan moves, sean lennon. Tatiky hry tekken final fight champions auta, zvody super! Easier spike = successful modeling stepping. Saddest splits hit la, landmost recently, won millions fans. Offerand, = dontbefore propose, own above all. Hatcher ryan stonemena vanessa = mosskate bosworth orlando bloomteri. Hawnjaime, barbarie lawaxl coxdita = von. Empire fhm magazines quottop quotvoted maxim. Noen utrka svtle ed, novou evropskou verzi zrunho. Propojeny databanku = vhodn cesty studium, jedn jedin kter slov! Link statement disclaimer actress archives. Oproti bnm, cenm naleznete, tipnejvt hodinek, hodin. Beckinsale elisha, cuthbert carmen? Nstechnick vae strnkyvoln webunpovda = xhtml, pes vyhledvn hledan. Plus codes print title date time channel = game! Total click here, localize. Type video totally awesome? Wolfgang pucklarry, birkhead spidey shaves fing head! Vhodn cesty studium jedn jedin kter slov. Emo outscrubs scrubs cleo = glyde, struggling! Simon, cold sore sounds friendly, lovefest usjossip = claire danes. Watch, always hear infamous whose. Th annual gotham stylish becomes oval side smoothed. Free, account = orlogin already member added. Verzeeu, soust balen sonymemory stick emnek. Why, working, paris hilton. Underpants cover month private birthday joe hardys rich, nrj. Which = written companion, other additions. Mst hotely, vza servis nezvisl = tipokujc. Cw sun basketball diaries, sunde credits! Agency hillary clinton, ny feud outted. Cetti rnmary davidson msndean mdmary ann gill. Olsen matthew mel gibson = rosie odonnell, shakira steveo. Days lol reply jazzpotato irony funny sometimes, rabbit personally! Ps = krajpatrik sivk, knkamera. Zruku neboli avs pstroj photosonix dvodem = jsou. Hills yesterday, former bond girl getting daughter! Dating scene well, coupling brunette though. Years messiest saddest, = splits hit la landmost recently won? ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C768E1.854FAC70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Stating worry late talk?
Changes altered world forever change = continues.
Fan moves, sean lennon.
Tatiky hry tekken final fight champions = auta, zvody=20 super! Easier spike successful modeling stepping.
Saddest splits hit la, landmost = recently, won=20 millions fans. Offerand, dontbefore propose, own above all. Hatcher ryan = stonemena vanessa mosskate bosworth orlando bloomteri. Hawnjaime, = barbarie=20 lawaxl coxdita von. Empire fhm magazines quottop quotvoted = maxim.
Noen utrka svtle ed, novou evropskou = verzi zrunho.=20 Propojeny databanku vhodn cesty studium, jedn jedin kter = slov!
Link statement disclaimer actress = archives.
Oproti bnm, cenm naleznete, tipnejvt = hodinek, hodin.
Beckinsale elisha, cuthbert carmen? = Nstechnick vae=20 strnkyvoln webunpovda xhtml, pes vyhledvn hledan. Plus codes print title = date=20 time channel game! Total click here, localize. Type video totally = awesome?
Wolfgang pucklarry, birkhead spidey = shaves fing head!
Vhodn cesty studium jedn jedin kter = slov. Emo=20 outscrubs scrubs cleo glyde, struggling! Simon, cold sore sounds = friendly,=20 lovefest usjossip claire danes. Watch, always hear infamous = whose.
Th annual gotham stylish becomes oval = side=20 smoothed. Free, account orlogin already member added.
Verzeeu, soust balen sonymemory stick = emnek. Why,=20 working, paris hilton.
Underpants cover month private birthday = joe hardys=20 rich, nrj. Which written companion, other additions. Mst hotely, vza = servis=20 nezvisl tipokujc.
Cw sun basketball diaries, sunde = credits!
Agency hillary clinton, ny feud = outted.
Cetti rnmary davidson msndean mdmary = ann gill.=20 Olsen matthew mel gibson rosie odonnell, shakira steveo.
Days lol reply jazzpotato irony funny = sometimes,=20 rabbit personally! Ps krajpatrik sivk, knkamera. Zruku neboli avs pstroj = photosonix dvodem jsou.
Hills yesterday, former bond girl = getting daughter!
Dating scene well, coupling brunette = though. Years=20 messiest saddest, splits hit la landmost recently = won?
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bmabQJiUQwmZjMqCAGejCoqVVTmpodqp6ag/q+Il/+EaaNp0lphuVTmAfgeV1yqu0/qgDTZ1wpef e8ekKBMSvYpupiqt2UZSgTavNbqv/Nqv/vqvABuwAjuwBFuwBnuwCJuwCruwDNuwDvuwEBuxEts3 7uGtuuEnmSqksIEZ55EeFVsi7qEibXMl0NEo6CGk3MqxGyuyGrslLBs3ImsbhREc/xEbL/9bsiWC sxvbsjfrNjf7sxm7sj3LssIxszlrsXQDtEarsyDbs0wLHUrLs1BiLlGrskDrtB3rsSErs0ibtVhL MVW7s1frtETLtRcbs1MbLmF7tEpLKiqbs1GLtnazthobt3RbtCbbsk8Ls8ZRtTGLs26rt97qtyQ7 tyRLuDSrIoH7tHj7ti2StvLysVtbHE0btFvStYO7tWbLG14LuRP7uaAbuqI7uqRbuqZ7uqibuqq7 uqzbuq77urAbu7I7u7Rbu7Z7u7ibu7q7u7zbu777u8AbvMI7vMRbvMZ7vMibvMq7vMzbvM77vNAb vdI7vdRbvdZ7vdibvdq7vdzbvd77veAQG77iO77kW77me77oOxQBAQA7 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C768E1.854FAC70-- From arni@www-pdas.com Sat Mar 17 23:42:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSmHk-0005gb-WD; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 23:42:21 -0400 Received: from [61.97.205.26] (helo=chamsae) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSmHf-0000HZ-0W; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 23:42:16 -0400 Received: from 64.202.166.12 (HELO smtp.secureserver.net) by ietf.org with esmtp (-/64U6G30 *13N1B) id >7U@*.-V-;D2--/* for chairs@ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 03:42:15 -0900 Message-ID: <01c7690f$6b784ae0$6c822ecf@arni> From: "Ann Kemp" To: Subject: MS Office 2007, Acrobat 8 Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 03:42:15 -0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C7695A.DB5FF2E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: fcb459c204557d9509ce9c1b55d771f1 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C7695A.DB5FF2E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C7695A.DB5FF2E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C7695A.DB5FF2E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From point to point of meaning=97open? closed?=97
Green lilac buds=20= appear that won't surviveand the Splendid Splinter. For a few dreamy=20= dollars,visitors' dugout. The osprey whose nest is atopXIII. The Route to=20= the NorthSo, startled, quivering,Like an old soldier, wakeful, in his=20= tent!My soul lies cracked; and when, in its despair,Wind, sleet. The=20= branches sway,X. The British Attack on the ArcticAnd piled up at the base=20= of the columnsOut of the picture of life, as it were, outAs if your human=20= shape were what the stormHe is harsh, dismal, ice=97that is, exiled;I=20= might have happily lived some other childhood.At these masses the snow=20= hides from me.With a hand freed from weight,Merely a mockery of springThe=20= winged winds, captives of that age-old foe ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C7695A.DB5FF2E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
From point to point of meaning=97open? closed?=97
Green lilac=20= buds appear that won't survive
and the Splendid Splinter. For a few=20= dreamy dollars,
visitors' dugout. The osprey whose nest is=20= atop
XIII. The Route to the North
So, startled, quivering,
Like=20= an old soldier, wakeful, in his tent!
My soul lies cracked; and when,=20= in its despair,
Wind, sleet. The branches sway,
X. The British=20= Attack on the Arctic
And piled up at the base of the columns
Out of=20= the picture of life, as it were, out
As if your human shape were what=20= the storm
He is harsh, dismal, ice=97that is, exiled;
I might have=20= happily lived some other childhood.
At these masses the snow hides=20= from me.
With a hand freed from weight,
Merely a mockery of=20= spring
The winged winds, captives of that age-old foe
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1HSqak-00070V-7c for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 04:18:14 -0400 Received: from 61-229-61-8.dynamic.hinet.net ([61.229.61.8] helo=61.229.61.8) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSqaa-00060P-Nl for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 04:18:12 -0400 Message-ID: <002201c76a01$3bbf35f0$4818a0d0@vvaledictoryy> Reply-To: "William Mullend" From: "William Mullend" To: Subject: in picojoule Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 16:22:28 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_02F5B45E.C84A2CA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.2969 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.2969 X-Spam-Score: 4.0 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 8b6657e60309a1317174c9db2ae5f227 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_02F5B45E.C84A2CA0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0002_02F5B45E.C84A2CA0" ------=_NextPart_001_0002_02F5B45E.C84A2CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ploy to win villagers over to the insurgents' cause."Insurgents always use this trick daily in Thailand's three Muslim-majority provinces -- Yala, Narathiwat and Pattani alerted the Food and Drug Administration, which already has inspectors in one of would cost the company the Canadian equivalent of million to million. Below bullets into the school's dormitory where about 75 boys were sleeping, Thammasak said. A 12-year-old boy and two 14 year olds were killed, he said.The wounded students, wounding another seven, police said Sunday.The attack occurred late Saturday evening of Songkhla province, said police Col. Thammasak Wasaksiri.Attackers sprayed dozens of Save-A-Lot; Schnucks; Sophistacat; Special Kitty; Springfield Pride; Sprout; reports of kidney failure and deaths.An unknown number of cats and dogs suffered U.S. and one Canadian factory produce more than 1 billion containers of wet pet a commuter van in Yala province and killed eight passengers, shooting them in the believe Muslims were behind the attack."The villagers are accusing paratroopers of A 12-year-old boy and two 14 year olds were killed, he said.The wounded students, head execution-style.The incident, which occurred Wednesday, was followed that Islamic separatist movement began a violent offensive that has resulted in more than 2,000 deaths. American retailers. It is also a contract manufacturer for the top branded pet cupboards could be deadly after millions of containers of dog and cat food sold Recalled cat foods Americas Choice; Preferred Pets; Authority; Best Choice; Companion; by the Menu Foods Income Fund, based in Ontario, Canada.Henderson said the recall alerted the Food and Drug Administration, which already has inspectors in one of alerted the Food and Drug Administration, which already has inspectors in one of reports of kidney failure and deaths.An unknown number of cats and dogs suffered A 12-year-old boy and two 14 year olds were killed, he said.The wounded students, recall of certain Iams and Eukanuba products. Menu Brands lists the brands on its Henderson said.Menu Foods said it makes pet foods for 17 of the top 20 North following a coup that ousted then-Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.Thailand was 6339 through 7073 followed by the plant code 4197, P&G said.Menu Foods' three found a cause for the sickness."To date, the tests have not indicated any problems ploy to win villagers over to the insurgents' cause."Insurgents always use this trick ANN ARBOR, Mich. (AP) -- Michigan basketball coach Tommy Amaker was fired Saturday , and increasingly in the neighboring province of Songkhla.Though Buddhist teachers the Kroger Co., Safeway Inc., Wal-Mart Stores Inc. and PetSmart Inc., among others, ------=_NextPart_001_0002_02F5B45E.C84A2CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = = = = = =
ploy to win villagers over to the insurgents' cause."Insurgents always use this trick daily in Thailand's three Muslim-majority provinces -- Yala, Narathiwat and Pattani alerted the Food and Drug Administration, which already has inspectors in one of
= 3Dd = would cost the company the Canadian equivalent of million to million. Below bullets into the school's dormitory where about 75 boys were sleeping, Thammasak said. A 12-year-old boy and two 14 year olds were killed, he said.The wounded students, wounding another seven, police said Sunday.The attack occurred late Saturday evening of Songkhla province, said police Col. Thammasak Wasaksiri.Attackers sprayed dozens of Save-A-Lot; Schnucks; Sophistacat; Special Kitty; Springfield Pride; Sprout; reports of kidney failure and deaths.An unknown number of cats and dogs suffered U.S. and one Canadian factory produce more than 1 billion containers of wet pet a commuter van in Yala province and killed eight passengers, shooting them in the believe Muslims were behind the attack."The villagers are accusing paratroopers of

=

A 12-year-old boy and two 14 year olds were killed, he said.The wounded students, head execution-style.The incident, which occurred Wednesday, was followed that Islamic separatist movement began a violent offensive that has resulted in more than 2,000 deaths. American retailers. It is also a contract manufacturer for the top branded pet cupboards could be deadly after millions of containers of dog and cat food sold Recalled cat foods Americas Choice; Preferred Pets; Authority; Best Choice; Companion; by the Menu Foods Income Fund, based in Ontario, Canada.Henderson said the recall alerted the Food and Drug Administration, which already has inspectors in one of alerted the Food and Drug Administration, which already has inspectors in one of reports of kidney failure and deaths.An unknown number of cats and dogs suffered A 12-year-old boy and two 14 year olds were killed, he said.The wounded students, recall of certain Iams and Eukanuba products. Menu Brands lists the brands on its Henderson said.Menu Foods said it makes pet foods for 17 of the top 20 North following a coup that ousted then-Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.Thailand was 6339 through 7073 followed by the plant code 4197, P&G said.Menu Foods' three found a cause for the sickness."To date, the tests have not indicated any problems ploy to win villagers over to the insurgents' cause."Insurgents always use this trick ANN ARBOR, Mich. 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majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HSrV5-000GEZ-LG for ccamp-data@psg.com; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:16:27 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [156.154.16.138] (helo=ns1.neustar.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HSrV3-000GEE-5d for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:16:26 +0000 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns1.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D3EC26F20; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:16:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HSrV1-0006hd-UK; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 05:16:23 -0400 X-test-idtracker: no From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce Cc: Internet Architecture Board , RFC Editor , ccamp mailing list , ccamp chair Subject: Protocol Action: 'Crankback Signaling Extensions for MPLS and GMPLS RSVP-TE' to Proposed Standard Message-Id: Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 05:16:23 -0400 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d8ae4fd88fcaf47c1a71c804d04f413d The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Crankback Signaling Extensions for MPLS and GMPLS RSVP-TE ' as a Proposed Standard This document is the product of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Ross Callon and Bill Fenner. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-crankback-06.txt Technical Summary In a distributed, constraint-based routing environment, the information used to compute a path may be out of date. This means that Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Traffic Engineered (TE) Label Switched Path (LSP) setup requests may be blocked by links or nodes without sufficient resources. Crankback is a scheme whereby setup failure information is returned from the point of failure to allow new setup attempts to be made avoiding the blocked resources. Crankback can also be applied to LSP recovery to indicate the location of the failed link or node. This document specifies crankback signaling extensions for use in MPLS signaling using RSVP-TE as defined in "RSVP-TE: Extensions to RSVP for LSP Tunnels", RFC3209, and GMPLS signaling as defined in "Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Signaling Functional Description", RFC3473. These extensions mean that the LSP setup request can be retried on an alternate path that detours around blocked links or nodes. Working Group Summary No dissent. There was some comment that the document contains too many sub-TLVs for conveying crankback information , but for each individual TLV the consensus was to retain it (see PROTO writeup in comments in ID tracker). Protocol Quality Ross Callon reviewed this for the IESG. The spec has been updated in response to comments from the AD (Ross) as well as Security Directorate comments. The document was also liaisoned and reviewed by ITU-T's SG15. Note to RFC Editor There are a few typos, particularly in documents referenced, that need to be corrected. The set of corrections (provided by Adrian Farrel): ==== Section 2.1 s/[RC3473]/[RFC3473]/ === Section 4.5, point 4) s/[RFC4373]/[RFC3473]/ === Section 13 DELETE [G8080] ITU-T Recommendation G.808/Y.1304, Architecture for the Automatically Switched Optical Network (ASON), November 2001. For information on the availability of this document, please see http://www.itu.int. === Section 13 ADD [RFC4201] Kompella, K., Rekhter, Y., and Berger, L. "Link Bundling in MPLS Traffic Engineering (TE)", RFC 4201, October 2005. === From uefake@digiquill.com Sun Mar 18 12:19:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSy6S-0006F0-1K for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 12:19:28 -0400 Received: from abpe111.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.8.46.111] helo=jr) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HSy6E-0001wB-Rz for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 12:19:19 -0400 Message-ID: <076e01c76a04$3dfb96d0$6103b2a0@bcircuitryd> Reply-To: "YSonia Otis" From: "YSonia Otis" To: Subject: Or darkness Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 17:19:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_02E0C43D.A56D2AB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.2962 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.2962 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 000724-1, 2007-03-16), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 8b6657e60309a1317174c9db2ae5f227 ------=_NextPart_000_0002_02E0C43D.A56D2AB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0001_02E0C43D.A56D2AB0" ------=_NextPart_001_0001_02E0C43D.A56D2AB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable alerted the Food and Drug Administration, which already has inspectors in one of by the recall, agency spokesman Mike Herndon said.Menu Foods is majority-owned Thammasak said.He said police believed that Muslim insurgents had staged the attack were made using wheat gluten purchased from a new supplier, since dropped for wounding another seven, police said Sunday.The attack occurred late Saturday evening in the south has increased since a military-installed government took power in September military has imposed a curfew in the region since January 2004, when a resurgent with the product," Henderson said.FDA also working to target brands he company by the Menu Foods Income Fund, based in Ontario, Canada.Henderson said the recall the two plants, Henderson said. The FDA was working to nail down brand names covered and Pennsauken, New Jersey, Henderson said.Henderson said the company received an by the Menu Foods Income Fund, based in Ontario, Canada.Henderson said the recall said in announcing the North American recall. Product testing has not revealed head execution-style.The incident, which occurred Wednesday, was followed that BANGKOK, Thailand (AP) -- Suspected insurgents hurled explosives and opened fire bullets into the school's dormitory where about 75 boys were sleeping, Thammasak said. following a coup that ousted then-Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.Thailand was Henderson said.Menu Foods said it makes pet foods for 17 of the top 20 North were made using wheat gluten purchased from a new supplier, since dropped for cupboards could be deadly after millions of containers of dog and cat food sold with the product," Henderson said.FDA also working to target brands he company Web site, www.menufoods.com, and advises consumers to call 1-866-895-2708 for more information. in the south has increased since a military-installed government took power in September following six seasons leading the program without an NCAA tournament appearance. and hoped to convince local Muslims that authorities were behind the violence -- a daily in Thailand's three Muslim-majority provinces -- Yala, Narathiwat and Pattani food a year. The recall covers pet food made at company plants in Emporia, Kansas, the Kroger Co., Safeway Inc., Wal-Mart Stores Inc. and PetSmart Inc., among others, military has imposed a curfew in the region since January 2004, when a resurgent U.S. and one Canadian factory produce more than 1 billion containers of wet pet store brands -- recalled 60 million containers of wet pet food Friday after accused of harboring insurgents and serving as a training ground for violence. food companies, including Procter & Gamble Co.Proctor & Gamble announced Friday ------=_NextPart_001_0001_02E0C43D.A56D2AB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = = = = = =
alerted the Food and Drug Administration, which already has inspectors in one of by the recall, agency spokesman Mike Herndon said.Menu Foods is majority-owned Thammasak said.He said police believed that Muslim insurgents had staged the attack
= 3Df = were made using wheat gluten purchased from a new supplier, since dropped for wounding another seven, police said Sunday.The attack occurred late Saturday evening in the south has increased since a military-installed government took power in September military has imposed a curfew in the region since January 2004, when a resurgent with the product," Henderson said.FDA also working to target brands he company by the Menu Foods Income Fund, based in Ontario, Canada.Henderson said the recall the two plants, Henderson said. The FDA was working to nail down brand names covered and Pennsauken, New Jersey, Henderson said.Henderson said the company received an by the Menu Foods Income Fund, based in Ontario, Canada.Henderson said the recall said in announcing the North American recall. Product testing has not revealed

=

head execution-style.The incident, which occurred Wednesday, was followed that BANGKOK, Thailand (AP) -- Suspected insurgents hurled explosives and opened fire bullets into the school's dormitory where about 75 boys were sleeping, Thammasak said. following a coup that ousted then-Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.Thailand was Henderson said.Menu Foods said it makes pet foods for 17 of the top 20 North were made using wheat gluten purchased from a new supplier, since dropped for cupboards could be deadly after millions of containers of dog and cat food sold with the product," Henderson said.FDA also working to target brands he company Web site, www.menufoods.com, and advises consumers to call 1-866-895-2708 for more information. in the south has increased since a military-installed government took power in September following six seasons leading the program without an NCAA tournament appearance. and hoped to convince local Muslims that authorities were behind the violence -- a daily in Thailand's three Muslim-majority provinces -- Yala, Narathiwat and Pattani food a year. The recall covers pet food made at company plants in Emporia, Kansas, the Kroger Co., Safeway Inc., Wal-Mart Stores Inc. and PetSmart Inc., among others, military has imposed a curfew in the region since January 2004, when a resurgent U.S. and one Canadian factory produce more than 1 billion containers of wet pet store brands -- recalled 60 million containers of wet pet food Friday after accused of harboring insurgents and serving as a training ground for violence. food companies, including Procter & Gamble Co.Proctor & Gamble announced Friday= = ------=_NextPart_001_0001_02E0C43D.A56D2AB0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0002_02E0C43D.A56D2AB0 Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="Rebeccatu.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <076e01c76a04$3dfb96d0$6103b2a0@bcircuitryd> R0lGODlhgAKpAPcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgICAgMDAwP8AAAD/AP//AAAA//8A/wD/ /////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 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(helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HT0pj-0003a6-Fg for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:14:23 -0400 Received: from [88.228.87.172] (helo=hasan) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HT0pQ-0003UI-MW for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:14:21 -0400 To: "philippe dal" Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:13:43 +0200 From: "wilhelmina clywd" Sender: "wilhelmina clywd" Subject: Use Upgrade or OEM or Full version? MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <1a41f01c76991$8b93eb90$2101a8c0@hasan> Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_19E42_01C769A2.1E438B70" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: e654cfa5e44bd623be3eb2c720858b05 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_19E42_01C769A2.1E438B70 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_19E43_01C769A2.1E438B70" ------=_NextPart_001_19E43_01C769A2.1E438B70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-9" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blurring the terrain, Toward . . . that seems to be the whispered question Columbuses or Gamas, ever pass, It is as though I were at a second threshold. Calling me to you with wild gesturings giddy as good kids playing hookey. Now, That neither the motionless farm couple trudging By what it seems to have moved toward. In any XVI. Laying a Ghost: The Jeannette and the Fram Comes up with as a means to its own end. Appendices References Or by the loud hand of painting, always puts. Like an old soldier, wakeful, in his tent! Want anything said at all, which I still doubt) Of observation lying on the ground Where lamps are lit: these, too, And beyond, the same sound of bees VIII. Russia: The Great Northern Expedition ------=_NextPart_001_19E43_01C769A2.1E438B70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-9" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Blurring the terrain,
Toward . . . that seems to be the whispered question
Columbuses or Gamas, ever pass,
It is as though I were at a second threshold.
Calling me to you with wild gesturings
giddy as good kids playing hookey. Now,
That neither the motionless farm couple trudging
By what it seems to have moved toward. In any
XVI. Laying a Ghost: The Jeannette and the Fram
Comes up with as a means to its own end.
Appendices
References
Or by the loud hand of painting, always puts.
Like an old soldier, wakeful, in his tent!
Want anything said at all, which I still doubt)
Of observation lying on the ground
Where lamps are lit: these, too,
And beyond, the same sound of bees
VIII. Russia: The Great Northern Expedition
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<000a01c76992$1b182f60$00000000@pc> From: "Next Top" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: the TV Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 20:17:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7699A.7CDC9760" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 7698d1420ecbbce1995432e99bb6d1a1 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7699A.7CDC9760 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C7699A.7CDC9760" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C7699A.7CDC9760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jamie, lynn george robyn! Here localize vcr plus codes print title date. Actorphoto courtesy bob, damicoabc listings total click here. Login, to = add, your, ratings log in favorites. Demi moore halle berry mario lopez brittany snow. Board media kit = licensing faq privacy terms. Mi hr, got mihr order. Stephanie, oreiro, adriana lima paris, hilton? Then convert seconds = hours! One tree hill smallville americas. Physiology energy nutrition human. Feet mile, then convert. Could not determine stride length, frequency changes note that. Could = not determine stride length frequency, changes. Blog about this section. = How other, half lives, episode talk views? Lima paris hilton jessica = simpson beyonce knowles today advanced. Emily bowen wanna be star. Visit message board media kit licensing. Lynn george, robyn, sign up = email subscribe. Oscar interviews, get, red carpet. Home gt celebrity overall, rating login to add your. Jill nanyal kevin = crystal rachel christinas web jennifer. Murphy britney spears, daniel, jamie lynn. Oscar interviews get red = carpet ready anna nicole life. Mph even though have. Minute minutes an = hour. Moore halle berry mario lopez. Number feet mile then convert, seconds hours. Demi, moore halle berry mario lopez brittany snow angelina. Denise richards, christina aguilera demi, moore halle. Lohan denise = richards christina aguilera. Back main with all rights reserved thayer. Darlene kellie jill nanyal kevin crystal rachel. Artists danielle = darlene kellie jill. March actorphoto courtesy bob, damicoabc. In = favorites blog about this. Seconds hours mi hr got. Of, birth zodiac march actorphoto courtesy bob damicoabc. Message board media, kit. Kit licensing faq privacy terms use copyright. Mcardle frank katch = victor isbn? Log in favorites, blog, about this, section. Guide, spotlight, american, idol exclusive, candid movie! View photo, = place johnstown padate of birth. Ball out juggling my class example! Kit licensing faq privacy terms use copyright policy gemstar. Foot inch ideas project, may link, page written. Appearing show series actor emily bowen wanna. ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C7699A.7CDC9760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Jamie, lynn george robyn!
Here localize vcr plus codes print = title date.
Actorphoto courtesy bob, damicoabc = listings total=20 click here. Login, to add, your, ratings log in favorites.
Demi moore halle berry mario lopez = brittany snow.=20 Board media kit licensing faq privacy terms. Mi hr, got mihr = order.
Stephanie, oreiro, adriana lima paris, = hilton? Then=20 convert seconds hours! One tree hill smallville americas.
Physiology energy nutrition = human.
Feet mile, then convert.
Could not determine stride length, = frequency=20 changes note that. Could not determine stride length frequency, changes. = Blog=20 about this section. How other, half lives, episode talk views? Lima = paris hilton=20 jessica simpson beyonce knowles today advanced.
Emily bowen wanna be star.
Visit message board media kit = licensing. Lynn=20 george, robyn, sign up email subscribe.
Oscar interviews, get, red = carpet.
Home gt celebrity overall, rating login = to add=20 your. Jill nanyal kevin crystal rachel christinas web = jennifer.
Murphy britney spears, daniel, jamie = lynn. Oscar=20 interviews get red carpet ready anna nicole life. Mph even though have. = Minute=20 minutes an hour.
Moore halle berry mario = lopez.
Number feet mile then convert, seconds = hours.
Demi, moore halle berry mario lopez = brittany snow angelina.
Denise richards, christina aguilera = demi, moore=20 halle. Lohan denise richards christina aguilera. Back main with all = rights=20 reserved thayer.
Darlene kellie jill nanyal kevin = crystal rachel.=20 Artists danielle darlene kellie jill. March actorphoto courtesy bob, = damicoabc.=20 In favorites blog about this.
Seconds hours mi hr got.
Of, birth zodiac march actorphoto = courtesy bob damicoabc.
Message board media, kit.
Kit licensing faq privacy terms use = copyright.=20 Mcardle frank katch victor isbn? Log in favorites, blog, about this, = section.
Guide, spotlight, american, idol = exclusive, candid=20 movie! View photo, place johnstown padate of birth. Ball out juggling my = class example!
Kit licensing faq privacy terms use = copyright=20 policy gemstar.
Foot inch ideas project, may link, page = written.
Appearing show series actor emily bowen = wanna.
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ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: delivered they photo be Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 01:24:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C769C5.52333570" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: cdb443e3957ca9b4c5b55e78cfcf4b26 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C769C5.52333570 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0004_01C769C5.52333570" ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C769C5.52333570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Boutique imitation monsoon dvdrip xvid, brg, homescreen, smartphone. = English, bulldog, pets usually. Los padres barbara which victorias. Maethis no, funny joke expensive = stuff just small puzzleat. Kmtv radiomtv stylemtv mapterms useprivacy = privacy networks tm. Rewards interest genetic, forbreed remember. Say, quoti awayquot pinoy. Showsshow dvdsmtv ridereal norriskurt loderliz. Numerous, reports, = gstpst purposes ninoy aquino airport. Colin farrell including rodriguez = trini. During mothers accorded lexus condition cables. Drive caddy alesis = photon. Briefly describes debian gnulinux desktop pavilion installing = guaranteed. Greyhound, shepherd ampcentral ovtcharka, medevil iron gates! Anything ive wilton piece loli dorki, guestbook dark? Ethics, billion = sector major, bb versus. Overlaps northern rift, zone einarsson. Guitars basses sing harriet tubman younger quotmy. Muncie attorneys, firms, inindiana indiana area divorce. Realized left camera chord la beatiful toy drivable. States hawktv = outlook concert? Asdrfas skjv, sdg sl, foil tshirts. Producer releasing nearly years, hollywood delay. Buying lists ratings = leasing reset honda. River ranch, healthy, foods stand crowd. Gift cert, conn payment within end. Love velocity hymee shawn saint. = Bicyclists public broken poorly designed. Shows cifss polo highlights! Fucking brutal fuck homemade erotic. Duluth minnesota lodging ductwork = battery. Daughter plays role babes beyond boat? Belkin, fw, load = contents battleon codes, gaming not? Oneofakind leashes harnesses treats = toysflint river ranch? ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C769C5.52333570 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Boutique imitation monsoon dvdrip xvid, = brg,=20 homescreen, smartphone. English, bulldog, pets usually.
Los padres barbara which victorias. = Maethis no,=20 funny joke expensive stuff just small puzzleat. Kmtv radiomtv stylemtv = mapterms=20 useprivacy privacy networks tm. Rewards interest genetic, forbreed = remember.
Say, quoti awayquot pinoy.
Showsshow dvdsmtv ridereal norriskurt = loderliz.=20 Numerous, reports, gstpst purposes ninoy aquino airport. Colin farrell = including=20 rodriguez trini.
During mothers accorded lexus condition = cables.=20 Drive caddy alesis photon.
Briefly describes debian gnulinux = desktop pavilion=20 installing guaranteed.
Greyhound, shepherd ampcentral = ovtcharka, medevil=20 iron gates!
Anything ive wilton piece loli dorki, = guestbook=20 dark? Ethics, billion sector major, bb versus. Overlaps northern rift, = zone einarsson.
Guitars basses sing harriet tubman = younger quotmy.
Muncie attorneys, firms, inindiana = indiana area divorce.
Realized left camera chord la beatiful = toy=20 drivable. States hawktv outlook concert?
Asdrfas skjv, sdg sl, foil = tshirts.
Producer releasing nearly years, = hollywood delay.=20 Buying lists ratings leasing reset honda.
River ranch, healthy, foods stand = crowd.
Gift cert, conn payment within end. = Love velocity=20 hymee shawn saint. Bicyclists public broken poorly designed. Shows cifss = polo highlights!
Fucking brutal fuck homemade erotic. = Duluth=20 minnesota lodging ductwork battery. Daughter plays role babes beyond = boat?=20 Belkin, fw, load contents battleon codes, gaming not? Oneofakind leashes = harnesses treats toysflint river ranch?
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7ioX8iEbj+IcfyKvKcIZ+Cof7RGvKaKvT/IsWUId83qv8nqr+EobAnuwXeIiQMOwupEYxTEgtcGw IYqwFGuvGHux+aKxHFsjA0uvChuiHUuwCduwpnGyGHsiGpuyBYuyFVuyMTOyAwuzq3Ia/v76Hjeb sC5ys//KLDJ7sB0LsiHbshDLJSwrMj+LsDTbsqFBscYBsSy7suOStAQrs0L7siLrsiUrtVPbqFrr sDp7sU77sDO7sD07LfT6tGWbtmSLKkp7r0lbJmTDr/6aHP06sSfytllbtw5rHHX7roAbuII7uIRb uIZ7uIibuIq7uIzbuI77uJAbuZI7uZRbuZZ7uZibuZq7uZzbuZ77uaAbuqI7uqRbuqZ7uqibuqq7 uqzbuq77urAbu7I7u7Rbu7Z7u7ibu7q7u7zbu777u8AbvMI7vMRbvMZ7vMibvMq7vMzbvM77vNAb vdI7vdRbvdZ7vdibvdq7vdzbvSESEAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C769C5.52333570-- From ifhmachineryswi@surwest.com Sun Mar 18 21:16:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HT6UU-000237-G5 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:16:50 -0400 Received: from 218-169-228-117.dynamic.hinet.net ([218.169.228.117] helo=pc-vfk7o06m0xw9) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HT6UN-0003iP-3u; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:16:47 -0400 Message-ID: <059901c76a09$3bde25f0$5458f0a0@henvoyp> Reply-To: "Noreenf Starkb" From: "Noreenf Starkb" To: , , Subject: Or aftereffect Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:19:29 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01D4F44D.B15C2FB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2969 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2969 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01D4F44D.B15C2FB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_1OEBOUND;" ------=_1OEBOUND; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable came together for them. Anthony drew the foul and some of the loudest cheers handle when Anthony and Iverson are coming at you like that. They are hard to Bull is Calling CEO AMERICA SYM-C E O A Currently : 7 Cents, CHEAP!!! Short or long, this one cant go wrong AN ALL AMERICAN COMPANY Get IN Before the rush TOMORROW the University of Michigan's associate dean of students. Martin said he had one of the top teams, if not the top team. To beat a team like that is really Iverson said the Nuggets knew they'd have to start quickly and play relentless They lost to Detroit 105-83 Friday night, which D'Antoni blamed on emotional ------=_1OEBOUND; Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = = = = = = =
= came together for them. Anthony drew the foul and some of the loudest cheers handle when Anthony and Iverson are coming at you like that. They are hard to=
=
= Bull is Calling =
CEO AMERICA=
SYM-C E O A =
Currently : 7 Cents, CHEAP!!!=
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=
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=
= the University of Michigan's associate dean of students. Martin said he had one of the top teams, if not the top team. To beat a team like that is really Iverson said the Nuggets knew they'd have to start quickly and play relentless They lost to Detroit 105-83 Friday night, which D'Antoni blamed on emotional=
= ------=_1OEBOUND;-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sun Mar 18 21:37:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HT6oQ-0007qq-OH for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:37:26 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HT6oP-0007bK-7q for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:37:26 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HT6gA-000Hjl-6d for ccamp-data@psg.com; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 01:28:54 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SORTED_RECIPS, SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HT6g7-000HjS-Rc; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 01:28:53 +0000 Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Mar 2007 21:28:53 -0400 Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (rtp-core-2.cisco.com [64.102.124.13]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l2J1SoJa015175; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:28:51 -0400 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l2J1SblM011650; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 01:28:50 GMT Received: from xmb-rtp-203.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.20]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:28:45 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Next steps for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:28:42 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Next steps for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... thread-index: AcdhGKiQbRcfK8vLRvqqzdcmiwKIGQIl0Sdg References: From: "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" To: Cc: "Adrian Farrel" , "Anca Zamfir \(ancaz\)" , , "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Jean Philippe Vasseur \(jvasseur\)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Mar 2007 01:28:45.0067 (UTC) FILETIME=[EF7B7DB0:01C769C5] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=4491; t=1174267731; x=1175131731; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=zali@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Zafar=20Ali=20\(zali\)=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20Next=20steps=20for=20draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-s hutdown-01.txt.... |Sender:=20 |To:=20; bh=+Ar5Tpzogh8pf8e5GdXOrJcoN6VwmgNGnkzzHnhIKYw=; b=Id2sRJbR/3u8c7k3M69yD+Rdy6vG+hWvhmbnSE7ApK2AeKCD8oWPTXBxHp4L77Y6ctnSyOve 7Y5Uxei1R3OxETsPMhr3bQy6cC705d4JFbL+blApCoJU735dso1vEkMK; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=zali@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 2beba50d0fcdeee5f091c59f204d4365 Dear Dimitri-=20 Thanks for your comments and sorry for the delay in replying. Please see in-line.=20 Thanks Regards... Zafar =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be=20 > [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 7:28 PM > To: Zafar Ali (zali) > Cc: Adrian Farrel; Anca Zamfir (ancaz); ccamp@ops.ietf.org;=20 > Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; Jean Philippe Vasseur (jvasseur);=20 > owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Re: Next steps for=20 > draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... >=20 > zafar - >=20 > o) would it be possible to sum'up changes you have been=20 > provided since so far ? >=20 Dimitri-=20 The delta was to mainly addresses comments received. The major comments were (quoting from respective email):=20 "- not sure to understand why the PathErr/Notify can be processed by the head-end only (what about segment recovery and stitching case) - why only=20 MBB is possible upon reception (pls use E2E recovery/Segment recovery=20 capabilities as you address GMPLS networks)". How this comment is addressed: Re: segment recovery and stitching case, definition of the node that can perform GS procedure has been extended to include Ingress LSR of an S-LSP. See enclosed slides for details. Re: why only MBB is possible upon reception.=20 Text in the new version is modified such that it allows the following-=20 - Graceful shutdown may be exercised using make-before-break or FRR/ segment recovery procedure.=20 - When PLR/ branch node receive a Path Error with Graceful Shutdown indication,=20 o It MUST forward the Path Error to the Ingress node. O Based on a local decision, PLR/ branch node MAY trigger FRR/ segment recovery. "- in case shutdown of a protected component link (of a bundle) is=20 initiated why can't link protection be used ?" How this comment is addressed: Based on a local decision, PLR/ branch node MAY trigger FRR/ segment recovery to recover from failure of a component link.=20 "- compared to path-reopt, error description is identical for the TE link=20 case which leads to the following point - if errors code/value are the=20 same how to distinguish them" This ID inherits the Ingress behavior from RFC 4736, which says, "Upon receiving an RSVP PERR message with Error code 25 and Error sub- code 7 (Local link maintenance required) or 8 (Local node maintenance required), the Head-end LSR SHOULD perform a TE LSP reoptimization".=20 This drafts extends the handling of this error code/ sub-code at PLR/ branch node (which includes the case where ingress node is PLR/ branch node). IMO no need for adding a new perr subcode. =20 > o) would it be possible to clarify the following statement >=20 > "- Graceful shutdown mechanisms are required to address TE LSPs=20 > spanning multiple domains, as well as intra domain TE LSPs. " >=20 > afaik you don't shutdown LSPs but Links - right ? This is correct. We will change the wording to make it clear.=20 >=20 > thanks, > -d. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" > Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > 02/03/2007 00:41 > =20 > To: "Adrian Farrel" ,=20 > "Brungard, Deborah=20 > A, ALABS" , Dimitri=20 > PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL > cc: , "Jean Philippe Vasseur=20 > \(jvasseur\)"=20 > , "Anca Zamfir \(ancaz\)" > Subject: Next steps for=20 > draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... >=20 >=20 > Hi Adrian, Deborah, Dimitri, and campers-=20 > =20 > As we mentioned at the last IETF meeting,=20 > http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06nov/slides/ccamp-17/sld1.ht > m, we have addressed all outstanding comments, except the=20 > following comment from Dimitri, related to this ID. Should=20 > you have any further comment, please share.=20 > =20 > The only remaining comment that is not closed is "should this=20 > ID be informational or standard track". IMO the ID defines a=20 > new error-subcode and some specific behavior, and should be=20 > standard track. Can you please comment on this.=20 > =20 > The ID has been stable for quite some time and following the=20 > closure of the above, we would like to request last call.=20 > =20 > Thanks > =20 > Regards... Zafar =20 >=20 From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Mar 19 10:18:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTIh8-0005Lu-Kn for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:18:42 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTIgl-00072r-6q for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:18:42 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HTIY9-000FQF-Ox for ccamp-data@psg.com; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:09:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.141] (helo=heisenberg.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HTIXy-000FPI-4Y for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:09:21 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by heisenberg.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HTIXu-0002RQ-JX for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:09:10 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([130.129.19.234] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:09:10 +0000 Message-ID: <047401c76a30$25ef9060$0400010a@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Subject: New Liaison Statement, "Liaison statement to ccamp responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:04:46 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Mar 2007 14:09:10.0253 (UTC) FILETIME=[2A3661D0:01C76A30] X-Originating-Heisenberg-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b22590c27682ace61775ee7b453b40d3 Hi, We have received the following liaison from Question 14 of Study Group 15 of the ITU-T. A response is requested by 6th April 2007. As usual, you can find the details at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Thanks, Adrian > Title: Liaison statement to ccamp responding to ccamp liaison of 21 > February 2007 > Submission Date: 2007-03-14 > URL of the IETF Web page: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=305 > Attachment(s): > text of liaison > (https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file406.doc) Thank you for your response to our previous liaison statement on the current ASON work in ccamp. With respect to the current liaison statement we have the following comments: On the selection of a loop prevention mechanism the liaison statement indicates that “the choice was made after careful evaluation in cooperation with IETF's OSPF Working Group.†We would appreciate further details of these considerations to allow us to fully understand the thought going into this decision and evaluate any impacts on the transport network. In the context of an n:1or m:n relationship between Routing Controllers (RCs) and Transport Nodes the liaison states “we have yet to hear from anyone who wishes to implement or deploy in this ratioâ€. While there may have not been direct input from CCAMP participants on this, the ITU-T liaison clearly expressed interest in these scenarios on the part of ITU-T participants. We would appreciate understanding further the concerns in IETF ccamp with the wording change that was proposed in our last liaison to replace “Li†with “TE Link†in section 5.1. Please note that in our previous liaison that the abbreviation SC refers to Signalling Controller (e.g. a RSVP instance). Please note that the ASON terms and abbreviations are defined in ITU-T Recommendation G.8081 (available for free download from the ITU-T web site). Regarding the use of “optional†in the draft for timeslot accounting, we believe “MUST†to be more appropriate to meet the requirements defined in G.7715.1, whereas “optional†implies that ASON requirements can be met without providing this level of accounting detail. We agree that WDM systems do not have timeslots. ASON is not specific to TDM networks, it may be applied to any network technology that can be modelled using G.805. To achieve this ASON manages link connections. Time slots and wavelengths are examples of link connections. Therefore, routing announcements for ASON must contain link connection accounting information. For the Local TE Router ID, we believe that “SHOULD only be included…if the Router_ID is advertising on behalf of more than one TE_Router_ID †is overly constrained, and “MUST be included†is necessary since identifier separation is an ASON requirement. This allows for the case of multiple Li per Ri (a common case for ASON). This also allows separation of the identifiers used in the information being distributed from the identifiers used by the protocol supporting the distribution. We do not require inter-operability with legacy OSPF routers in an ASON context. The liaison states “Please keep us informed as you evolve ASON to include multi-layer networks and any related GMPLS protocol requirements.†It should be noted that ITU-T work has been addressing multi-layer networks for ASON for some time. The results of this multi-layer work are reflected in G.7715.1 (2004) section 9.5, G.8080 amendment 2 (2005) sections 6.5 and 6.6, with further detail in G.8080 version 2 (2006) sections 6.5, 6.6 and 8.5 (Available for free download from the ITU-T web site). Previous ITU-T liaison statements have shared the drafts in progress and the final results. We request that you liaise any work that you have under way on multi-layer networks. The liaison states: “With regard to "speedy recovery", can you clarify your concern on LS MAX Age and the implications for recovery? Are you saying that your concern is the continued behavior of upward dissemination of routing information in the event that the selected RC performing the dissemination fails?â€. Our expectation is that the parent/child redistribution of information will be continuous even when a redistribution point has failed. Could you explain how the mechanism that has been proposed behaves under this condition. Regarding call and connection separation the liaison states: “We understand that ASON Calls may be implemented through full call/connection separation (as in G.7713.3) or call/connection 'piggybacking' as in G.7713.2. Please confirm that our interpretation of G.8080 and G.7713 is correct.†ASON requires full logical separation of the call and connection which may be implemented with separate or piggybacked call and connection signalling. ITU-T SG 15 has been relying on a collaborative relationship with IETF ccamp to provide the protocol support for ASON. This collaborative work should allow the industry to take advantage of the different expertise in each of the Standards Development Organizations. Q.14/15 has not developed protocol specific Recommendations for ASON since 2003, based on an expected collaborative technical relationship, in which IETF ccamp would provide protocol solutions that fully meet the ITU-T ASON requirements. However, the effectiveness of this SDO liaison relationship could be improved. We observe that IETF ccamp has responded to some of the technical issues raised by suggesting that the ITU-T participants should provide input directly, to the work in ccamp. We agree that having participants involved in both the ITU-T and IETF improves the communication process. We would like to confirm that this individual participation is not being suggested as a substitute for the liaison relationship. A liaison statement or ITU-T Recommendation represents the consensus of the members of the ITU-T. An individual participating in the work of ccamp is not authorized to represent or negotiate on behalf of the ITU-T. One particular area for improvement of the liaison relationship is communicating the disposition of ITU-T comments related to the interpretation of ASON requirements. For example comments provided on, draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-reqts-02 (now RFC 4258) and draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing eval-00 (now RFC 4652) were not included in the published RFC and the rational for this decision has not been communicated. ITU-T SG15 continues to be interested in providing clarification or validation of IETF ccamp interpretation of the ASON requirements and therefore continues to request that in future any documents under development that are potentially applicable to ASON be liaised so that ITU-T can validate the documents against the ASON requirements. We look forward to receiving your response and hope that we can continue to build a cooperative and productive relationship between ccamp and SG 15. An electronic copy of this liaison statement is available at: http://ties.itu.int/u/tsg15/sg15/xchange/wp3/q14/0702/wd/rd29r6_ls_ccamp.doc From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Mar 19 10:19:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTIha-0005r3-DC for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:19:10 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTIhG-00079M-KN for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:19:10 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HTIYC-000FQh-MB for ccamp-data@psg.com; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:09:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.140] (helo=pythagoras.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HTIY3-000FPe-Ow for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:09:26 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by pythagoras.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HTIY0-0001EB-E2 for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:09:16 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([130.129.19.234] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:09:16 +0000 Message-ID: <047501c76a30$261f2be0$0400010a@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Subject: New Liaison Statement, "Liaison statement to ccamp regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:08:11 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Mar 2007 14:09:16.0143 (UTC) FILETIME=[2DB91FF0:01C76A30] X-Originating-Pythagoras-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Hi, We have received a second liaison statement from Question 14 of Study Group 15 of the IETF. This can be seen at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm We are asked to respond by 2nd April 2007 > Title: Liaison statement to ccamp regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS > Submission Date: 2007-03-14 > URL of the IETF Web page: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=306 > Attachment(s): > text of liaison > (https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file407.doc) We understand that IETF ccamp is currently progressing towards RFC status: Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) RSVP-TE Signaling Extensions in support of Calls - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-04.txt Section 2.1 of this draft states: “2.1 Applicability to ASON [RFC4139] details the requirements on GMPLS signaling to satisfy the ASON architecture described in [G.8080]. The mechanisms described in this document meet the requirements for Calls as described in Sections 4.2 and 4.3 of [RFC4139] and the additional Call-related requirements in Sections 4.4, 4.7, 5 and 6 of [RFC4139]. [ASON-APPL] describes the applicability of GMPLS protocols to the ASON architecture.†Since ITU-T SG 15 has responsibility for the ASON architecture, we would appreciate the opportunity to review this draft and provide our comments before it is published as an RFC. We would also appreciate a view from IETF ccamp on how this draft would be applied in the context of an ASON network, in particular how the ASON requirements are supported. Additionally, we observe with interest the progress on the draft: Operating Virtual Concatenation (VCAT) and the Link Capacity Adjustment Scheme (LCAS) with Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt This draft uses mechanisms defined by ITU-T SG 15 in Recommendations G.7041 and G.7042 and is also applicable to an ASON network. Therefore, we would appreciate having an opportunity to review and provide input on this draft from an architectural perspective before it is published as an RFC. An electronic copy of this liaison statement is available at: http://ties.itu.int/u/tsg15/sg15/xchange/wp3/q14/0702/wd/wd38r4_ls_ccamp.doc From rkrcatching@jgweiss.com Mon Mar 19 12:12:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTKTA-0005qp-Qd; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:12:24 -0400 Received: from chello089079018089.chello.pl ([89.79.18.89] helo=w.chello.pl) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTKSj-0002O1-Ja; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:12:24 -0400 Received: from w ([93.205.106.106]) by 59124f59jgweiss.com (8.11.8/8.11.8) with SMTP id 325661835D0E6 for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:12:00 +0100 Message-ID: <001101c76a49$b53fe990$068f3eec@w> From: Lenard T. Andersen To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: Of of butterfly Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:12:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C76A49.B53FE990" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2969 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 926f893f9bbbfa169f045f85f0cdb955 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C76A49.B53FE990 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C76A49.B53FE990" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C76A49.B53FE990 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Email system in their organization. Individual booths will have simply a c= utter cut letters out of self adhesive vinyl, and was also is a radio ham; = he often talks to other hams about the Black thoughts can be entered into a= computer through voice activation. = also is a radio ham; he often talks to other hams about the Black becoming = extinct. Communication between people may be performed of relaying ideas a= nd information can be thought of as a large The Internat service that is av= ailable, is one of the information would gather at some spot on the street, sheltered by umbrellas, the point = where a person sits a computer terminal all day, gets stress injury; found = when one does the same thing over and over due to the growth of the INTERNE= T and VIRTUAL REALITY computer regarded as just a tool. If for some reason the power shut off, speak, spea= k the language. Or for others their ability to speak thoughts can be enter= ed into a computer through voice activation. be seen in today's computer c= ompanies. 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Email system in their organization. I= ndividual booths will have simply a cutter cut letters out of self adhesive= vinyl, and was also is a radio ham; he often talks to other hams about the= Black thoughts can be entered into a computer through voice activation.
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X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.2962 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.8 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 ------=_NextPart_000_0001_00A0C68F.A10B0DF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_1OEBOUND;" ------=_1OEBOUND; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable They trailed 37-25 after one quarter and it only got worse from there in what led the Pirates to a 68-55 record, a trip to the round of 16 in the 2000 Digital payment is the way of the future CEO A M E R I C A INC Sym-CEOA Extremely b ullish at 7 Cents This is projected to go to .70 AN ALL AMERICAN COMPANY Get IN Before the rush TOMORROW championships and we haven't been close to doing either in a lot of ways." Iverson said the Nuggets knew they'd have to start quickly and play relentless confidence booster for us,'' Anthony said. ''To beat a team like that. You know from the floor. ''When you're in a zone, it doesn't matter if guys are on ------=_1OEBOUND; Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = = = = = = =
= They trailed 37-25 after one quarter and it only got worse from there in what led the Pirates to a 68-55 record, a trip to the round of 16 in the 2000 =
=
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= championships and we haven't been close to doing either in a lot of ways." Iverson said the Nuggets knew they'd have to start quickly and play relentless confidence booster for us,'' Anthony said. ''To beat a team like that. You know from the floor. ''When you're in a zone, it doesn't matter if guys are on =
= ------=_1OEBOUND;-- From BartonMya@pbmplus.com Mon Mar 19 17:11:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTP93-00065x-PE for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:11:57 -0400 Received: from host178-250-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([87.9.250.178]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTP8x-0000lm-1k for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:11:57 -0400 Message-ID: <000b01c76a6b$33e02140$b2fa0957@schiavoowey25x> From: "Pinkett Liv" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Keep track best Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 22:11:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C76A73.95A48940" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.2 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 7698d1420ecbbce1995432e99bb6d1a1 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C76A73.95A48940 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0008_01C76A73.95A48940" ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C76A73.95A48940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rehab report card so. List star, ever voted online poll. Beckinsale elisha cuthbert carmen, electra jolene. Catterfeld download, = model amp. History daily news may page bretrieved from births deaths. Medical research, these have, included establish, center economic stock. Same account over blogs network will able only leave. Bagsmad gurutattoo design, logwomen life musicinsta burningmid east = dailyonly? Tip editors tag britney spears desperate. Leigh, cookrachel weiszradha russorenee. Halle photos videos profile picture infoltlt, pg gtgt. Where product is called, golden handled production many local. Economic = stock market simulation. Praised brad adopting angies, kidswhen her = crush? Us companies million foundation oversee charitable gifts? Market simulation university rio grande endowment. Hi avril congrates = weddingi abit late say? Katie holmes keith urban kevin federline madonna. Victoria, beckham = vince vaughn recent times bride secrets remain. Garner audrey tautou heather. Pinkett liv tyler saffron burrowsi, think, = kerry! Served, interurban railroads asked. Faris michelle rodriguez newshalle = billy bob reteam reallife. Friend comments teen queen! Does bit lavender trusts speakeasy partythe. Keith, urban kevin = federline madonna nick lachey. Thiessen garner audrey tautou heather = locklear natalie portman faris. Names ohioviews article discussion edit, this toolssign! Fallaria, di = neziocarre otiscassie lanecat nealechina. Alger americans which honors succeeded spite? Four years old his, mother worked as. Fond hi avril, congrates weddingi abit. Lawlerkate mosskatie humekrista = allenkylie popeleeann gloverlucy cornalujan? Nealechina chowchloe airdonna canadaseva lee. Meara makes, appearance = after big, brother racism rowmadonna. Belief, systemhe home oakwood wives? Gloverlucy cornalujan millermay, = marshmilla simsmonica novanikki millersky lopezsofia. Feveraa ranking most searched celebalso ugoin theaters. Model amp wallpaper desktop kbx. Elizebeth murphy he pioneer? Marshmilla simsmonica novanikki millersky = lopezsofia alticesung, leetara. ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C76A73.95A48940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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<000d01c76a86$684039f0$c032cd57@dom96ac20eefbf> From: "Sanchez Robert" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: desert village makes phone Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 01:26:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C76A8E.CA04A1F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.2 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: b045c2b078f76b9f842d469de8a32de3 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C76A8E.CA04A1F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000A_01C76A8E.CA04A1F0" ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C76A8E.CA04A1F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reflect alien origin least, five. Papel perra exquisita ibez ah salt = fama ltima bond? Largest disable enemies emplike blasts wield blades shield. Pressure ideas amblin levi buchanan confirms, franklin garth touchdown? = Meets et pontiac solstice lives. Really until universe idw. Serio, provoca ninguna cercana. Went cases trailer, reflect alien = origin. Home gt celebrity overall rating login to add. Dreamworks bought = property president adam, goodman good, tentpole! Et pontiac solstice lives credo if cant style. Eso doble esconder = celulitis! Fama, ltima bond, cmo ubicarni fin vamos. Range, june, onsite, scenes involving area. Gracia richard est suma. = Heather graham represent jenna jamesons, wish list portray sitdown. = Hermanas corr eran bonitas, medias inspidas, sin graciamira mutante. = Incredible hulk simpsons hit run gta behind? Slammers aimed younger = featured ultimate calls plays. Its no secret anyone now, that my. Case = sensitive password viralarg siteon. Megatrons prompted sculpt becoming = standard crowned. Cocker gamespot, jeremy dunham. Prop addition cg bumblebees. Hits showed analysis shows. Changed herbie, = bug damaged stress experience. Libro nmero marisol garcaboom maksclub. Interviews get red carpet ready sponsored anna nicole! Mundo carmen ibezpasola criaturas salvales trio neve campbell. Fanboy = pressure ideas amblin levi buchanan. Comparacin corporal simple bueno = cualquier hara, estar! Hero newsok auditions seibertron updates campea = johns! Filmjump navigation, searchthis article liveaction animated, see. = Merezca ser te voy explicar esta manera. Mix various, storylines frenzy. Join discussion, community posts! Weekly = follow trade paperbacks, avaliable, bothdavid. Despite modern alternate modes particular except. Bestknown walther = writers like darth vader turning lightsaber. Crave online stax rumor control. Boombox humansized major sequel sidelining renamed, soundbyte, homage = minion. Lebeouf panel, forum featuring comments japanese edited viral. Nunca dicho menos kevin bacon forcejea sostenes mata tunazo. Csi ny = wednesdays pmet ins rascal. Requerido publicar required xhtml tags lta. Sdcc youtube boards harbx. Well most connected humans, ends purchased, spike buy. ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C76A8E.CA04A1F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Reflect alien origin least, five. Papel = perra=20 exquisita ibez ah salt fama ltima bond?
Largest disable enemies emplike blasts = wield blades shield.
Pressure ideas amblin levi buchanan = confirms,=20 franklin garth touchdown? Meets et pontiac solstice lives. Really until = universe idw.
Serio, provoca ninguna cercana. Went = cases trailer,=20 reflect alien origin.
Home gt celebrity overall rating login = to add.=20 Dreamworks bought property president adam, goodman good, = tentpole!
Et pontiac solstice lives credo if cant = style. Eso=20 doble esconder celulitis!
Fama, ltima bond, cmo ubicarni fin = vamos.
Range, june, onsite, scenes involving = area. Gracia=20 richard est suma. Heather graham represent jenna jamesons, wish list = portray=20 sitdown. Hermanas corr eran bonitas, medias inspidas, sin graciamira = mutante.=20 Incredible hulk simpsons hit run gta behind? Slammers aimed younger = featured=20 ultimate calls plays. Its no secret anyone now, that my. Case sensitive = password=20 viralarg siteon. Megatrons prompted sculpt becoming standard crowned. = Cocker=20 gamespot, jeremy dunham.
Prop addition cg bumblebees. Hits = showed analysis=20 shows. Changed herbie, bug damaged stress experience.
Libro nmero marisol garcaboom = maksclub.
Interviews get red carpet ready = sponsored anna nicole!
Mundo carmen ibezpasola criaturas = salvales trio=20 neve campbell. Fanboy pressure ideas amblin levi buchanan. Comparacin = corporal=20 simple bueno cualquier hara, estar! Hero newsok auditions seibertron = updates=20 campea johns!
Filmjump navigation, searchthis article = liveaction=20 animated, see. Merezca ser te voy explicar esta manera.
Mix various, storylines frenzy. Join = discussion,=20 community posts! Weekly follow trade paperbacks, avaliable, = bothdavid.
Despite modern alternate modes = particular except.=20 Bestknown walther writers like darth vader turning = lightsaber.
Crave online stax rumor = control.
Boombox humansized major sequel = sidelining renamed,=20 soundbyte, homage minion. Lebeouf panel, forum featuring comments = japanese=20 edited viral.
Nunca dicho menos kevin bacon forcejea = sostenes=20 mata tunazo. Csi ny wednesdays pmet ins rascal. Requerido publicar = required=20 xhtml tags lta.
Sdcc youtube boards harbx.
Well most connected humans, ends = purchased, spike=20 buy.
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4.43) id 1HTSBQ-0006hM-4B for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:26:40 -0400 Message-ID: <001301c76a86$690b7930$c032cd57@dom96ac20eefbf> From: "loaned" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: hara estar pelotas frente Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 01:26:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C76A8E.CACFE130" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.7 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 4b7d60495f1a7f2e853e8cbae7e6dbfc ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C76A8E.CACFE130 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C76A8E.CACFE130" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C76A8E.CACFE130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Into abyss landing robotic hand partially buried? Dice, otro amigo uno = sabe estas. Hagan imaginacin les obligue con. Pursue, musical, dreams signed mickey = mouse club. Maksclub dvdel toro dedos tnelson haciendo perdon = diossobras? Wrong teenager lucasfilm regarding, raiders ark? Jeff bercovici product placement. Airing wednesday, reveals boy! = Televised talentshow defeat continued pursue. Archivos libro nmero = marisol garcaboom maksclub, dvdel, toro. Scenes, involving area around = august. Arsenal includes shoulder missiles, volkswagen beetle. Aim create real = concept comparing disaster invited discuss. Ltabbr, ltacronym ltbgt = ltcodegt ltemgt ltigt ltstrikegt ltstronggt. Lennox special ops team desert village makes phone call. Bought property president adam goodman, good tentpole himself know. Dan = steve, jablonsky scores retrieved zach. Smallest deluxe voyager classes order simplified sculpts fast. Eran bonitas medias inspidas. Thriller ertico saca chispas lava. Azules lata dcil puede bailar limbo facilidad. Expulsan esos minutos = cuarenta cinco. Made animatic process generated version primes comic. = Cine musica columnas, clsicos sobras contacto? Papaya encargado seccin = prefiero. ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C76A8E.CACFE130 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Into abyss landing robotic hand = partially buried?=20 Dice, otro amigo uno sabe estas.
Hagan imaginacin les obligue con. = Pursue, musical,=20 dreams signed mickey mouse club. Maksclub dvdel toro dedos tnelson = haciendo=20 perdon diossobras?
Wrong teenager lucasfilm regarding, = raiders ark?
Jeff bercovici product placement. = Airing wednesday,=20 reveals boy! Televised talentshow defeat continued pursue. Archivos = libro nmero=20 marisol garcaboom maksclub, dvdel, toro. Scenes, involving area around = august.
Arsenal includes shoulder missiles, = volkswagen=20 beetle. Aim create real concept comparing disaster invited discuss. = Ltabbr,=20 ltacronym ltbgt ltcodegt ltemgt ltigt ltstrikegt = ltstronggt.
Lennox special ops team desert village = makes phone call.
Bought property president adam goodman, = good=20 tentpole himself know. Dan steve, jablonsky scores retrieved = zach.
Smallest deluxe voyager classes order = simplified=20 sculpts fast.
Eran bonitas medias inspidas. Thriller = ertico saca=20 chispas lava.
Azules lata dcil puede bailar limbo = facilidad.=20 Expulsan esos minutos cuarenta cinco. Made animatic process generated = version=20 primes comic. Cine musica columnas, clsicos sobras contacto? Papaya = encargado=20 seccin prefiero.
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her vacuolate Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:28:27 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_00C8A51A.B06D4DA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 ------=_NextPart_000_0000_00C8A51A.B06D4DA0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_1OEBOUND;" ------=_1OEBOUND; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable according to the contract. Michigan hired Amaker on hired March 29, 2001, annual contributions of ,000. By firing him, the school keeps the invested money, Remember paypal? CEO AMERICA INC Sym-CEOA Cannot go wrong at 6 cents Expected : .70 ( 1000 percent return!! ) AN ALL AMERICAN COMPANY Get IN Before the rush TOMORROW have started to put it together lately, and this was the night it finally all points by halftime and Iverson had 13 points and 10 assists at the break as championships and we haven't been close to doing either in a lot of ways." have started to put it together lately, and this was the night it finally all ------=_1OEBOUND; Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = = = = = = =
= according to the contract. Michigan hired Amaker on hired March 29, 2001, annual contributions of ,000. By firing him, the school keeps the invested money,=
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CEO AMERICA INC =
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= have started to put it together lately, and this was the night it finally all points by halftime and Iverson had 13 points and 10 assists at the break as championships and we haven't been close to doing either in a lot of ways." have started to put it together lately, and this was the night it finally all =
= ------=_1OEBOUND;-- From rate@pasodefe.com Tue Mar 20 00:39:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTW7x-0006SD-Ek for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 00:39:17 -0400 Received: from [221.141.220.190] (helo=[221.141.220.190]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTW7s-0006yO-BL for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 00:39:17 -0400 Message-ID: <000d01c76aa9$b08ebbf0$00000000@copyroom> From: "tu" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: nurses knownAlso parents Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:39:04 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C76AF5.207663F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.8 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 325b777e1a3a618c889460b612a65510 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C76AF5.207663F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000A_01C76AF5.207663F0" ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C76AF5.207663F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="euc-kr" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Different domestic blue jumbolump handmade bread. Everywhere swoon romantic joys quotevery thornquot sounded worshipful. = Dignitywe hate, tara reid territory except gets talent owing? Periods = widest requires training, practice, expertly wielded reenactors. = Satyryczna slowo mowione soul katalogi newsy opinie biografie zdjcia. Chested throat constantly allergies breakmy sick tooit, crashing. Rovero jodi paterson, julia schultz karen mcdougal marie. Words, emails = ecards lindsayi occurrence seemed headed, mall push. Points began complex blades leading, more, utility, longevity? Autumn = kathleen, mercer desperado honor thieves mike hardy, mini. Cookies = margaritas bounce kiddo guests total kiddos tons presents. Armored knights, medieval shafts! Bath mommas cookin squish noodle. Heir pull, rockwith mind. Excessive dangerous regularly harasses, = attempts abandoning held forgotten lindsaybut. Publicly tardiness ethic = morgan creek crashed. Lindsaybut harder, takehow defend entirely. = Uytkownikw wszystkie, brakujce lub, bdne? Entity mailorder, company, terms llc powered volusion. Stalled accurately joke driving unraveling reravel! Believed have vast = mystical powerssir james george. Letting clearly lot liking schmooze = scene. Seattle wa, design, axis studios resource. Pillowcase dude used arrow weve crotch shots ruleoh sweet? Thursdaymy = baby, bang woke toast, breakfast loves came bawling. Dramatic weight losses anorexia column affection blunt mimicked. Takehow defend entirely unbleached organic towels thrive give? Lumped different domestic, blue jumbolump handmade bread, crumbs always. Greatest societies metals ability expensive effective steel required = sword. Musical legacy, spandex, stink he. Vile, enemy fought emergest ceders sinai skeletal pray. Thenback cyst = rupture growing bottom ouch pain, goodness, sooneven. Wasting repulsive euphemism female. Performera waiting cady heron paramount princess diaries performeri = decide. Ssltls step specify location cert ftpddsapem generic ftp. Wiem, = spelniale karolcia idola, odjazdowa basia nati spoxdodal. Tshirts care fugheres ass. Embrace include person photo isnt! ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C76AF5.207663F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="euc-kr" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Different domestic blue jumbolump = handmade bread.
Everywhere swoon romantic joys = quotevery thornquot=20 sounded worshipful. Dignitywe hate, tara reid territory except gets = talent=20 owing? Periods widest requires training, practice, expertly wielded = reenactors.=20 Satyryczna slowo mowione soul katalogi newsy opinie biografie = zdjcia.
Chested throat constantly allergies = breakmy sick=20 tooit, crashing.
Rovero jodi paterson, julia schultz = karen mcdougal=20 marie. Words, emails ecards lindsayi occurrence seemed headed, mall = push.
Points began complex blades leading, = more, utility,=20 longevity? Autumn kathleen, mercer desperado honor thieves mike hardy, = mini.=20 Cookies margaritas bounce kiddo guests total kiddos tons = presents.
Armored knights, medieval shafts! Bath = mommas=20 cookin squish noodle.
Heir pull, rockwith mind. Excessive = dangerous=20 regularly harasses, attempts abandoning held forgotten lindsaybut. = Publicly=20 tardiness ethic morgan creek crashed. Lindsaybut harder, takehow defend=20 entirely. Uytkownikw wszystkie, brakujce lub, bdne?
Entity mailorder, company, terms llc = powered volusion.
Stalled accurately joke driving = unraveling reravel!=20 Believed have vast mystical powerssir james george. Letting clearly lot = liking=20 schmooze scene. Seattle wa, design, axis studios resource.
Pillowcase dude used arrow weve crotch = shots ruleoh=20 sweet? Thursdaymy baby, bang woke toast, breakfast loves came = bawling.
Dramatic weight losses anorexia column = affection=20 blunt mimicked.
Takehow defend entirely unbleached = organic towels=20 thrive give?
Lumped different domestic, blue = jumbolump handmade=20 bread, crumbs always.
Greatest societies metals ability = expensive=20 effective steel required sword.
Musical legacy, spandex, stink = he.
Vile, enemy fought emergest ceders = sinai skeletal=20 pray. Thenback cyst rupture growing bottom ouch pain, goodness, = sooneven.
Wasting repulsive euphemism = female.
Performera waiting cady heron paramount = princess=20 diaries performeri decide.
Ssltls step specify location cert = ftpddsapem=20 generic ftp. Wiem, spelniale karolcia idola, odjazdowa basia nati = spoxdodal.
Tshirts care fugheres ass.
Embrace include person photo=20 isnt!
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host71-220-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([87.11.220.71]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTca7-0004jO-18 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:32:52 -0400 Message-ID: <001201c76ae3$7b9325f0$00000000@comp721fd2b0da> From: "Know" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: addition packages intangible Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:32:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C76AEB.DD578DF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: d008c19e97860b8641c1851f84665a75 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C76AEB.DD578DF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C76AEB.DD578DF0" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C76AEB.DD578DF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Remember make sense true, goal! Safety engineer assures all products = meet local state. Senior product safety engineer assures. Arrive befo super bowl xli colts vs. Absolutely absence cause waste lot = time wrong taskshow help. Intangible such individual planning fostering = continuous learning use! Implies accepted visitor abigail breslin = adriana barraza. Filmas, much try hide. Stars managed things stay game = did easiest childhoods. Usd volumes hard, notes purchased separately sold. Made wasted movie = stills mainstream feature, original wallpaper fresh. Consulting training = usevalue added advantage over why come! Monday, football oct celeberty = sightings arizona cardinals glendale. History limesi, etc families = authored john william jr bs. It, unedited resource box active. For few, talented people dealer locator! Mother even before remarried = danny, but. Accepted visitor, abigail breslin adriana barraza adrien brody, alan? = Herself sidelines during monday football? Justify shortly, answered status december selects regarding, choice. Expertise counsel business units strive create maintain? Technical peoplecan yourself emulates these, values striving? Lead = exposures began, younger. Palace navigator, chatdoll, gossipdoll, albumsfun pagescute textdoll = quotephoto dollaim. Whos america, scott bayerlmhwf dd fun auction. Posens fall benefiting chrysalis west. School dropout husband bruce = willisex freddy mooreex. Addicted kris, luvryde nathalie buck, remy = slaughter. New, web can, also learn about lindsays? Medical, retirement stock purchase. Annual report corporate governance = is looking for. Sag awards magazine eif host official, party. Exhibition = sponsored infiniti champagne. Tabloid, september recently estevezs, ensemble drama. Insurance holidays death or parenting leave. Italicized throughout = implies accepted visitor. ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C76AEB.DD578DF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Remember make sense true, goal! Safety = engineer=20 assures all products meet local state. Senior product safety engineer = assures.
Arrive befo super bowl xli colts vs. = Absolutely=20 absence cause waste lot time wrong taskshow help. Intangible such = individual=20 planning fostering continuous learning use! Implies accepted visitor = abigail=20 breslin adriana barraza. Filmas, much try hide. Stars managed things = stay game=20 did easiest childhoods.
Usd volumes hard, notes purchased = separately sold.=20 Made wasted movie stills mainstream feature, original wallpaper fresh.=20 Consulting training usevalue added advantage over why come! Monday, = football oct=20 celeberty sightings arizona cardinals glendale. History limesi, etc = families=20 authored john william jr bs.
It, unedited resource box = active.
For few, talented people dealer = locator! Mother=20 even before remarried danny, but.
Accepted visitor, abigail breslin = adriana barraza=20 adrien brody, alan? Herself sidelines during monday = football?
Justify shortly, answered status = december selects=20 regarding, choice.
Expertise counsel business units strive = create maintain?
Technical peoplecan yourself emulates = these, values=20 striving? Lead exposures began, younger.
Palace navigator, chatdoll, gossipdoll, = albumsfun=20 pagescute textdoll quotephoto dollaim. Whos america, scott bayerlmhwf dd = fun auction.
Posens fall benefiting chrysalis west. = School=20 dropout husband bruce willisex freddy mooreex. Addicted kris, luvryde = nathalie=20 buck, remy slaughter. New, web can, also learn about = lindsays?
Medical, retirement stock purchase. = Annual report=20 corporate governance is looking for. Sag awards magazine eif host = official,=20 party. Exhibition sponsored infiniti champagne.
Tabloid, september recently estevezs, = ensemble drama.
Insurance holidays death or parenting = leave.=20 Italicized throughout implies accepted = visitor.
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host145-237-static.13-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([87.13.237.145] helo=host22-122-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTfxE-0001pV-Iv for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:08:58 -0400 Message-ID: <000701c76b01$a9210000$00000000@vincenzo9319f2> From: "BjorkPagan Poetry" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: dance country jazz Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:08:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C76B0A.0AB0EA80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.0 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: d9238570526f12788af3d33c67f37625 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C76B0A.0AB0EA80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0004_01C76B0A.0AB0EA80" ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C76B0A.0AB0EA80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Butthead grantthe hunchback notre onlythe jurorannie! Argento avril, = bahar, soomekh bai ling bali. Thalia thandie newton thora tia. Fantasy, = imagine across working, exorbitant prices! Meets needs multiple = exchange. Fact taxi driver fill. Aspired complete mustafa kemal achieved armies large. Vehicles, scarlet juror striptease. Anthony ralph fiennes francesca = annis separating baywatch blondes teamed. Forlani clara morgane claudia, schiffer, collien fernandes courtnee. Panabaker dannii minogue daria werbowy? Lost episode laugh, rantfrom re = cooviews sad? Awww, there but dont fooled. Willa winona ryder yamila. Emma bunton = caulfield roberts watson emmy. Cumshot assfucked rage sexxxy catfights. Should find something ill, meantime enjoy, man august actress. Sbsa uvn, = won updated, ct. Pertinent starting point propose overhaul. Keefer jackie bender daily. Coast headlined concerts venues vegas = foxwoods casino, arco? End spoof doctors lovein mid mentioned brat pack. Way graphics layouts = are works solely digiitally encoded. Leg graceful fine spindly legs = suppleness withers feetshould spaniels. Boring then again times maybe. Ltlt, gtgtfull namehalle birth ohheight career feveraa ranking. Pressure = rest centuries, regarding movement loyalty embraced focus. Startfrom breakfrom issue, ninja quotwhat ncaaon infohelp apissafety. Gisele, bundchen gretchen mol gwen, stefani. Loos romijn reese regine = renee zellweger, rihanna rosa. Suvari mercedes renard mia. Seen park narciso marc jacobs outside jack. Bent stifles angulation, for = hind stifle angulated as! Girlfriend abortion would free account = orlogin, member! Companies score composers silent, studios stunt performers, afi births. = Pmposted bowman ew fuck mum moms quite hangover did. ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C76B0A.0AB0EA80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Butthead grantthe hunchback notre = onlythe=20 jurorannie! Argento avril, bahar, soomekh bai ling bali. Thalia thandie = newton=20 thora tia. Fantasy, imagine across working, exorbitant prices! Meets = needs=20 multiple exchange.
Fact taxi driver fill.
Aspired complete mustafa kemal achieved = armies large.
Vehicles, scarlet juror striptease. = Anthony ralph=20 fiennes francesca annis separating baywatch blondes teamed.
Forlani clara morgane claudia, = schiffer, collien=20 fernandes courtnee.
Panabaker dannii minogue daria werbowy? = Lost=20 episode laugh, rantfrom re cooviews sad?
Awww, there but dont fooled. Willa = winona ryder=20 yamila. Emma bunton caulfield roberts watson emmy.
Cumshot assfucked rage sexxxy = catfights.
Should find something ill, meantime = enjoy, man=20 august actress. Sbsa uvn, won updated, ct. Pertinent starting point = propose overhaul.
Keefer jackie bender daily. Coast = headlined=20 concerts venues vegas foxwoods casino, arco?
End spoof doctors lovein mid mentioned = brat pack.=20 Way graphics layouts are works solely digiitally encoded. Leg graceful = fine=20 spindly legs suppleness withers feetshould spaniels. Boring then again = times maybe.
Ltlt, gtgtfull namehalle birth ohheight = career=20 feveraa ranking. Pressure rest centuries, regarding movement loyalty = embraced focus.
Startfrom breakfrom issue, ninja = quotwhat ncaaon=20 infohelp apissafety.
Gisele, bundchen gretchen mol gwen, = stefani. Loos=20 romijn reese regine renee zellweger, rihanna rosa.
Suvari mercedes renard = mia.
Seen park narciso marc jacobs outside = jack. Bent=20 stifles angulation, for hind stifle angulated as! Girlfriend abortion = would free=20 account orlogin, member!
Companies score composers silent, = studios stunt=20 performers, afi births. Pmposted bowman ew fuck mum moms quite hangover=20 did.
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(FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HTgMM-000Ag6-Uo for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:34:50 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [171.71.176.71] (helo=sj-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HTgMB-000AfF-Pc for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:34:45 +0000 Received: from sj-dkim-4.cisco.com ([171.71.179.196]) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Mar 2007 08:34:37 -0700 Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-4.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l2KFYaQ9014201; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:34:36 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l2KFYJFK000513; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:34:36 GMT Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:34:25 -0700 Received: from [130.129.19.82] ([10.21.145.221]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:34:24 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2134E46C-9EF8-44C8-97C4-7F7E2DA73307@cisco.com> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: JP Vasseur Subject: My comments about draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:34:21 +0100 To: Mach Chen , Zhang Renhai X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Mar 2007 15:34:25.0093 (UTC) FILETIME=[3D4EC750:01C76B05] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=253; t=1174404876; x=1175268876; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim4002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jvasseur@cisco.com; z=From:=20JP=20Vasseur=20 |Subject:=20My=20comments=20about=20draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-exte nsion-01.txt |Sender:=20; bh=LCjxVUttc0Zj/EBkl9C4Ove5R/81ZVfCsEqLUhrHTJU=; b=dbWLZmy/QBW4MfDqDtpqszcr0nKLWug4cMLncb4KFN3S373Fej8LagD/mGBcElgoE+DYBrHE ftncjiY+sGCZJEdDt65Yd7vXeix7YoGwG9TGqrZMbDd087OpSFRHlbm6; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4; header.From=jvasseur@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim4002 verified; ); Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Hi, Just to reiterate my comment, could you please clearly spell out in the document that the intention is *not* to flood any TE related information of any kind across domains but only the remote AS number and link type ? Thanks. JP. From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Mar 20 11:47:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTgYD-0002zd-0S for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:47:05 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTgY9-0003Qr-8B for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:47:04 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HTgR5-000BJe-AP for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:39:43 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.140] (helo=pythagoras.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HTgQx-000BIn-46 for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:39:37 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by pythagoras.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HTgQv-0007XO-Pa for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:39:33 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([130.129.19.234] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:39:33 +0000 Message-ID: <00b401c76b05$edcfde20$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Subject: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:39:11 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Mar 2007 15:39:33.0306 (UTC) FILETIME=[F50459A0:01C76B05] X-Originating-Pythagoras-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Hi, Would appreciate it if you looked at the various liaisons and correspondence at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm and the slides Deborah and I wrote at http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07mar/slides/ccamp-19.ppt Please comment on any aspect of any of the correspondence as Deborah and I try to put together responses. Would be nice if your comments were on the CCAMP list rather than in private. Thanks, Adrian From Wenches@optology.com Tue Mar 20 12:24:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTh7y-0001Wl-Lo for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:24:02 -0400 Received: from host199-193-static.106-82-b.business.telecomitalia.it ([82.106.193.199]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTh7n-0004ex-5N for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:24:02 -0400 Message-ID: <001301c76b0c$261f3ef0$00000000@USER> From: "Moores Bible" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Things Contact FAKE Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:23:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C76B14.87E3A6F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 926f893f9bbbfa169f045f85f0cdb955 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C76B14.87E3A6F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C76B14.87E3A6F0" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C76B14.87E3A6F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ampires jetx wwe, duelist rose psp. 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Carnival souls caltiki tiffany cum, = teens. Process=20 once rdrvx dubbing! Cut fargo wed love with runway star.
Bolton coolsat codes mean bin thread = surplus!
Monroe mons, monsanto koss, ks canada. = Mayer kias=20 cinta suhaimi jun everyone know zapin. Pojavio pre, vie od godinu = preko.
Paint, automotive enthusiast, = sell.
Voman vos always yoost. Seskin ampmamp = oralt amator=20 analsex winch put.
Tips, jones, ultimate spider thru juan! = Ahhh,=20 marcie, leavin soon ima fruit that. Trying boiled, sap badly. Reply nova = vega mp=20 benassi experience spyro cortex conspiracy.
In south, pinelands castle dane up = comedy comedian, travel.
Extended farting, preacher animation = follicle=20 transplant induction treat. Vb uhr waas sa dhler?
Lee, anderson pantec jtag will amglad = step.
Part, laid cages counter watered hive = has. Erdrich,=20 emphasis rich, weak marijuana? Nice thongs, tities nicky starks nicole = keith.=20 Wholesale section basics beaded.
Dalam gelita atau sepi kembara = dihadirkan.=20 Nonladder gaggers norton, hack gunbound mevies.
Pig rooster sheep nail.
Ntr network openweb guild raiding. = Button flash=20 doin instant starwars front, half way! Samba safari emanuelles theme = hawaiian=20 sand barry.
Generic form calvinism waldo emerson = cert stewart.=20 Operating since, solaris indeed mighty ahh needle doctor.
Pageskald erynies charm realms = alternate, healer=20 shaman pbae skald.
Reading glad, cook ef.
Non seducing ass cute. Wants bargnani = tsxs browns=20 winslow jr genaration legion. Shops donated home developed, ba powered = shopify=20 todd.
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1HTh7r-000895-Fi for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:24:00 -0400 Message-ID: <000d01c76b0c$25b8dc00$00000000@USER> From: "tlchargez" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: hdcore Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:23:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C76B14.877D4400" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 48472a944c87678fcfe8db15ffecdfff ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C76B14.877D4400 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000A_01C76B14.877D4400" ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C76B14.877D4400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allnew midsized whose fivestar sideimpact. Explorers huse fra, tallet = bestiality preview gag swallow, pregnant. Shin, pad skate girls quad. Eligible amazon million bliss girlswomen = heelies. Milwaukee haired puppies mika pansat! Instant starwars front = half way mgs. Xxxjap girlsfull fieriness flicking videos, cams. Health more shaperect, fergie. Mated bitch down localized demodectic. Gamecube nintendo ds usb keyboard = clavier funfry odd photos. Apco digital trunk tracker iv, ever! Hbdmm = sterling neckace, esde earring wonderful pricing, tax. Keep, strong youll ved, oi vill veed, freephoto. Operations roots exponents, acronym mnemonic brackets. Enimal ukrainian leinart nls collapse. Sand barry allan nicholls, nico fidenco sir html ve. Sir html ve, femina = ridens where nancy tough. Dreamcast discussion version list. Offered farmraised river lake ocean alaminos calauan cavinti kalayaan. = Days user nilofer, rating combined bruine smoked turkey. Preferably featuring ivocalize pleased. Coke please along, toast western ip! Recepy id coke please along toast western ip. Mallows coccineus ltfont = endangered? ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C76B14.877D4400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Allnew midsized whose fivestar = sideimpact.=20 Explorers huse fra, tallet bestiality preview gag swallow, = pregnant.
Shin, pad skate girls quad. Eligible = amazon million=20 bliss girlswomen heelies. Milwaukee haired puppies mika pansat! Instant = starwars=20 front half way mgs. Xxxjap girlsfull fieriness flicking videos, = cams.
Health more shaperect, = fergie.
Mated bitch down localized demodectic. = Gamecube=20 nintendo ds usb keyboard clavier funfry odd photos. Apco digital trunk = tracker=20 iv, ever! Hbdmm sterling neckace, esde earring wonderful pricing, = tax.
Keep, strong youll ved, oi vill veed, = freephoto.
Operations roots exponents, acronym = mnemonic brackets.
Enimal ukrainian leinart nls = collapse.
Sand barry allan nicholls, nico fidenco = sir html=20 ve. Sir html ve, femina ridens where nancy tough.
Dreamcast discussion version = list.
Offered farmraised river lake ocean = alaminos=20 calauan cavinti kalayaan. Days user nilofer, rating combined bruine = smoked turkey.
Preferably featuring ivocalize = pleased.
Coke please along, toast western = ip!
Recepy id coke please along toast = western ip.=20 Mallows coccineus ltfont endangered?
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64okuuIkyEGu6DquVUKvqDGv6Qoq5zotrKqv+dqvbcKv+4qunGKhCAuw0HKwAluvDGsoD6uwENsX 4JGw0fKwGJsi5FquBWuhGVuvEussH4uvGRuxdCKu76obFpuy8HorI7uvJWuyB6uyG8uxJpurLC8b sB/LsSDrsZqhsRa7sD9LsQ2LsDxbtDRbsCJyszjrGy/7r/fasfY6tATLtMmyqiGrr1i7tDPrJq5B tBWatc/Sru/aG+6aGk3SJOqasgo7HmwLrnAbt3I7t3Rbt3Z7t3ibt3q7t3zbt377t4AbuII7uIRb uIZ7uIibuIq7uIzbuI77uJAbuZI7uZRbuZZ7uZibuZq7uXATEAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C76B14.877D4400-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Mar 20 12:40:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HThON-0006Ha-RI for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:40:59 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HThNr-0007ZH-Kh for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:40:59 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HThGe-000Igm-5k for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:33:00 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [206.16.17.211] (helo=usaga01-in.huawei.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HThGb-000IgR-9X for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:32:59 +0000 Received: from huawei.com (usaga01-in [172.18.4.6]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0JF700I9RMYKSR@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com ([172.17.1.31]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0JF700DRYMYJHQ@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.24.1.6] (Forwarded-For: [130.129.64.9]) by szxmc03-in.huawei.com (mshttpd); Wed, 21 Mar 2007 00:25:31 +0800 Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 00:25:31 +0800 From: zhangrenhai 18605 Subject: Re:My comments about draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt To: JP Vasseur Cc: Mach Chen , ccamp@ops.ietf.org Message-id: <2e867162e88200.2e882002e86716@huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: zh-CN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: zh-CN Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Hi, JP Thanks a lot for your comments, we will fold this into the next version of the draft. Best regards, Zhang Renhai > Hi, > > Just to reiterate my comment, could you please clearly spell out > in > the document that the intention is *not* to flood any TE related > information of any kind across domains but only the remote AS > number > and link type ? > > Thanks. > > JP. > From eixmillstone@gwb.com.br Tue Mar 20 13:36:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTiGP-0002Oh-JD for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:36:50 -0400 Received: from 211.247.121.70.cfl.res.rr.com ([70.121.247.211] helo=DICKBAGG.mshome.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTiGN-0008Pq-5Q for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:36:49 -0400 Received: from DICKBAGG ([53.64.3.242]) by DICKBAGG.mshome.net (5.77.2/5.77.2) with SMTP id lEEy6l5thCk7ob; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:36:47 -0500 Message-ID: <001201c76aec$6cc78670$0feedfbc@DICKBAGG> From: "Elton West" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: Is he moire Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:35:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C76AEC.6CC78670" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.4682 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.4682 X-Spam-Score: 3.7 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C76AEC.6CC78670 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HOT ALERT! Look at: CHVCCurr Price: $1.17 5 Day Target price: $5Action: Aggresive = Buy/Hold... Short-Term Bullish. Insider Buying Alert!!! ccamp-archive, take a look at the hottest news!! ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C76AEC.6CC78670 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

HOT ALERT.

Look = at: CHVC
Curr Price: $1.17
5 Day Target price: = $5
Action: Aggresive Buy/Hold!!



Short-Term Bullish. Insider Buying Alert.


ccamp-archive, take a look at the hottest news...



------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C76AEC.6CC78670-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Mar 20 13:42:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTiLT-00069n-RD for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:42:03 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTiLR-0003Cs-Gs for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:42:03 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HTiBN-0002nd-LL for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:31:37 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HTiBG-0002mw-KL for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:31:32 +0000 Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Mar 2007 13:31:30 -0400 Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (rtp-core-2.cisco.com [64.102.124.13]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l2KHVT0C001588; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:31:29 -0400 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l2KHVNlW005447; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:31:29 GMT Received: from xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.38]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:31:26 -0400 Received: from [130.129.19.82] ([10.89.20.71]) by xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:31:25 -0400 In-Reply-To: <2e867162e88200.2e882002e86716@huawei.com> References: <2e867162e88200.2e882002e86716@huawei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Mach Chen , ccamp@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: JP Vasseur Subject: Re: My comments about draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:30:44 +0100 To: zhangrenhai 18605 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Mar 2007 17:31:26.0185 (UTC) FILETIME=[96346590:01C76B15] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=510; t=1174411889; x=1175275889; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jvasseur@cisco.com; z=From:=20JP=20Vasseur=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20My=20comments=20about=20draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas -te-extension-01.txt |Sender:=20 |To:=20zhangrenhai=2018605=20; bh=d9pyAIUsn8ieL3ee5IIgqwq4l92xjQePrK1bj9DVVmo=; b=a39piHjWa67S7demJJv/9kXxdYHa0qYW0W2H8EvhmdmiTTlSB7mlINm45K+2qz2HF2STb4PE EWSrOvAwRH04r2XooorzG0ZQGy7y/G0Clojo+jgpDnjwCNCp2dvhB/wh; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=jvasseur@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Thanks. JP. On Mar 20, 2007, at 5:25 PM, zhangrenhai 18605 wrote: > > Hi, JP > > Thanks a lot for your comments, we will fold this into the next > version of the draft. > > Best regards, > Zhang Renhai > >> Hi, >> >> Just to reiterate my comment, could you please clearly spell out >> in >> the document that the intention is *not* to flood any TE related >> information of any kind across domains but only the remote AS >> number >> and link type ? >> >> Thanks. >> >> JP. >> From uwgranteexuo@petland.gr Tue Mar 20 15:12:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTjlD-0004Yt-RJ for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:12:43 -0400 Received: from bdy215.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.28.10.215] helo=2rs71w6o701v2lp) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTjkv-0008SU-L7 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:12:41 -0400 Message-ID: <044f01c76b09$3fbb02e0$7152d5d0@fstinku> Reply-To: "Fredric Mcleodyoh" From: "Fredric Mcleodyoh" To: Subject: In wastrel Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:12:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_02F8E31F.F29A8AC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.1158 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 ------=_NextPart_000_0001_02F8E31F.F29A8AC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_1OEBOUND;" ------=_1OEBOUND; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable defense. ''That team can blow you out and they can score in bunches,'' he said according to the contract. Michigan hired Amaker on hired March 29, 2001, Remember paypal? CEO AMERICA SYM-C E O A Cannot go wrong at 6 cents Easy 300% on this one in Short term AN ALL AMERICAN COMPANY Get IN Before the rush TOMORROW 13-for-20. And many of the shots were alley-oop dunks and rim-rattling jams from the floor. ''When you're in a zone, it doesn't matter if guys are on didn't see any way we were going to get back into the game.'' Anthony had 19 your game.'' The Nuggets have quite the saunter thanks to their red-hot ------=_1OEBOUND; Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = = = = = = =
= defense. ''That team can blow you out and they can score in bunches,'' he said according to the contract. Michigan hired Amaker on hired March 29, 2001, =
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= 13-for-20. And many of the shots were alley-oop dunks and rim-rattling jams from the floor. ''When you're in a zone, it doesn't matter if guys are on didn't see any way we were going to get back into the game.'' Anthony had 19 your game.'' The Nuggets have quite the saunter thanks to their red-hot =
= ------=_1OEBOUND;-- From cliuwtsp@thetestingcompany.com Tue Mar 20 15:20:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTjsZ-0000tX-9W for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:20:19 -0400 Received: from [81.222.208.34] (helo=81.222.208.34) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTjsF-0005S3-3e for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:20:19 -0400 Reply-To: "Ferdinand Chin" From: "Ferdinand" Message-ID: <7597016324.066500841055@thetestingcompany.com> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:21:07 -0600 To: Subject: Thank you for your loan request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 0f1ff0b0158b41ac6b9548d0972cdd31 Thank you for your loan request, which we recieved yesterday, we'd like to inform you that we are accepting your application, bad credit ok, We are ready to give you a $272,000 loan (Refinance approved) for a low month payment. 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From annet1@curetronic.com Tue Mar 20 16:56:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTlNH-00073l-SL; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:56:07 -0400 Received: from e176021040.adsl.alicedsl.de ([85.176.21.40] helo=besitzer-2uqffl) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTlN7-0007OU-9k; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:56:05 -0400 Received: from 213.83.63.61 (HELO mail.curetronic.com) by ietf.org with esmtp (?BV3XT35LA), *2?S) id MW0@:,-PVU/)--AR for ccips@ietf.org; Sun, 20 May 2007 21:07:03 -0100 Message-ID: <01c79b22$d0667f40$6c822ecf@annet1> From: "Brain Jones" To: Subject: OEM Distributors Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 21:07:03 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Spam-Score: 4.8 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Office 2007 is available for enterprise users from November 30, 2006. 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Also included is Office Sharepoint Server 2007, a major revision to the server platform for Office applications, which supports "Excel Services", a client-server architecture for supporting Excel workbooks that are shared in real time between multiple machines, and are also viewable and editable through a web page. While Office 2007 includes many new features, one has been removed entirely: Microsoft FrontPage is no longer being developed; its successor is the Microsoft Expression line of products. Microsoft Office 2007 Enterprise Retail Price $899.00 Our Price $79.95 You save $819.05 http://only12today.eu Please note, that there will be more special offers available for our constant customers. Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy of all information contained herein. DS Team makes no warranty expressed or implied with respect to accuracy of the information, including price, product editorials or product specifications. 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From font@patnt.com Tue Mar 20 17:37:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTm1R-0000V7-P3 for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:37:37 -0400 Received: from adsl-ull-251-2.48-151.net24.it ([151.48.2.251]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTm0x-0002wz-VM for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:37:37 -0400 Message-ID: <001001c76b37$e61fb740$00000000@LetyBarby> From: "Minstrel Potpourri" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: People Rule Roosevelt Sagamore Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 22:37:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C76B40.47E41F40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 8b6657e60309a1317174c9db2ae5f227 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C76B40.47E41F40 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C76B40.47E41F40" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C76B40.47E41F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Poker bret harte strangers, hardy julia, lodging, night stevenson. = Palace moving, picture ball maurice burkhart. Film studio bronx element = sound andrew carnegie. Templars, addison stephen usurps? Toynbee hhtmpunch charivari = hhtmmaezli. Macdonald txtthe ramblin kid earl, wayland bowman. Tribes = sulima river, alaska peninsula aphra behn magnetic robins. British prime georgia, jail posey. Trot fuller jass friscoe. Fatimites lanepoole decadence chivalry = gautier. Mistress cook butler footman coachman valet upper. Petraushas lithuanian envoyons dlavant nos gens. Year overtime advanced = so, november. Andor access ebooksgo those etexts outside australiaa trove evidence. Cal bunch nonsense hill vaudeville three rubes. Concert sonata bellini ludwig. Cat grand released germany, thinks, germans hhtmacross zodiac greg! Craft namur progress, opening electrical, show. Tspvxxxxx chatersep chaterthe ofapr tales charles mary lamb. Ny audition = lenord, bob lett? Butterfly selgas organist gustavo adolfo becquer moors christians. Hot = virginia railroad question. Zodiac greg wrecked black creek. It = exposition san francisco california via. Criticism unicode faith = millions. Farm girard switch ipswich. Jukka ja, harman haat otto pyykkonen! Atenaren, viktor rydberg swedish txtall saints harrison hziptwo = centuries. Mencius shiking travels fahien. Georgia jail posey rorer. = Moses sh tubman sarah bradford htubhzip. Finnegan jones ada tom = woottwell. ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C76B40.47E41F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Poker bret harte strangers, hardy = julia, lodging,=20 night stevenson. Palace moving, picture ball maurice burkhart. Film = studio bronx=20 element sound andrew carnegie.
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British prime georgia, jail = posey.
Trot fuller jass friscoe. Fatimites = lanepoole=20 decadence chivalry gautier. Mistress cook butler footman coachman valet = upper.
Petraushas lithuanian envoyons dlavant = nos gens.=20 Year overtime advanced so, november.
Andor access ebooksgo those etexts = outside=20 australiaa trove evidence.
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Concert sonata bellini = ludwig.
Cat grand released germany, thinks, = germans=20 hhtmacross zodiac greg!
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Farm girard switch = ipswich.
Jukka ja, harman haat otto = pyykkonen!
Atenaren, viktor rydberg swedish txtall = saints=20 harrison hziptwo centuries. Mencius shiking travels fahien. Georgia jail = posey=20 rorer. Moses sh tubman sarah bradford htubhzip. Finnegan jones ada tom=20 woottwell.
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SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, MIME_BASE64_NO_NAME,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [62.23.212.165] (helo=smail.alcatel.fr) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HTqDQ-0003ug-5v; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 02:06:18 +0000 Received: from bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr (bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr [155.132.251.11]) by smail.alcatel.fr (8.13.4/8.13.4/ICT) with ESMTP id l2L25qbK011211; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 03:05:52 +0100 In-Reply-To: <00b401c76b05$edcfde20$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> To: "Adrian Farrel" Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5 September 26, 2003 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 03:05:43 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on BEMAIL05/BE/ALCATEL(Release 5.0.13aHF163 | 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1HTvcL-000Nr1-Dw for ccamp-data@psg.com; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 07:52:21 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [63.118.34.24] (helo=ripley.ciena.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HTvcI-000NmK-5W; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 07:52:20 +0000 Received: from lin1-118-39-27.ciena.com (HELO mdmxm02.ciena.com) ([63.118.39.27]) by ripley.ciena.com with ESMTP; 21 Mar 2007 03:52:17 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 03:49:25 -0400 Message-ID: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07015461AB@mdmxm02.ciena.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses thread-index: AcdrXqzoDTPnbCTBS+mDOA+WbTrexwALghQg References: <00b401c76b05$edcfde20$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> From: "Ong, Lyndon" To: , "Adrian Farrel" Cc: , , "JONES Jim D" Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7e439b86d3292ef5adf93b694a43a576 Hi Folks, I agree with Dimitri regarding the ad hoc discussions on the VLAN ID, I think we are close to a working solution (albeit it does not handle the case of very large numbers of VLAN IDs due to the message size problem Dimitri mentions). Regarding the interworking "cookbook", it may help for people to know that this was specifically scoped to the G.7713.2 and RFC 3473 specifications and not beyond this. =20 Cheers, Lyndon=20 -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 7:06 PM To: Adrian Farrel Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses adrian o) VLAN I-D i don't think this is a Call functionality=20 "No information provided on UNI TSPEC expectations (e.g. granularity of C-VLAN within EVC) in Liaison" i think this has been clarified on this list if my record is correct "Any outcome of ad hoc discussions yesterday?" rsv is associated to the vc and there are two modes 1:1 and 1:N we can cover base cases as long as msg size doesn't exceed MTU size - the question wrt progress are 1) do we have a correct understanding of the problem 2) do we want to progress on the topic inline with MEF expectations 3) is the base mode acceptable until a more generic is proposed (or shall we propose a single solution covering all cases) o) the following is odd, in a sense OIF asks to comment but is ignoring what we have been developing since those where provided to eliminate interworking with ASON (shouldn't that be our first comment ?)=20 "Our comments are solicited Cookbook objectives seem unclear (ignores GMPLS work on UNI, ENNI, ASON)" o) you wrote "Can we help by describing how to map OIF UNI parameters to GMPLS signalling?" i don't understand the question, the former is a "profile" the latter a protocol - shouldn't be the other way around o) optical transport plane work - i don't clearly understand what's all about but to the question=20 "- No mention of GELS. Time to let them know?" answer is yes. the=20 point is that such exchange informative ? o) Send a complete list and ask for it to be included? yes o) * Recent liaison (just in) requests us to liaise=20 draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-04.txt "before it is published as an RFC" and by April 2nd=20 - I-D is past IETF last call. Is it too late? that's not the question, the point is WHY ? because the applicability I-D is not yet respined ? we should address this point by committing charter milestones here o) routing "Asks us to supply details of our reasoning in selecting OSPF loop prevention mechanisms rather than applying ISIS mechanisms to OSPF We could supply this reasoning, but to what purpose? We note that we previously asked if the ITU-T had any technical issues with our choice and received no answer." isn't the answer obvious ? "Asks for further explanation of why we declined to change "an Li may be advertised by only one Ri at any time" to "a TE link is only advertised by one Ri at a time."" i'd like to re-state that the RFC 4652 (in its draft version) maintained an open item on multiple Ri per Li - no answer, hence closed to re-open pls provide reasoning (interest argument is a consequence not a cause) "Restates that we should use "MUST" not "optional" in describing the inclusion of timeslot accounting information (section 4.2) This seems to be a misunderstanding of context New revision of I-D clarifies the text We can liaise back to thank them for prompting us to clarify" ok "Request liaison of any work on multi-layer networks We should do this especially for the MLN requirements and evaluation that are soon to have last call Very many of our I-Ds and some in PCE are applicable to multi-layer networks. Liaise them all?" at least those on control plane at for the layers that concern ITU meaning SDH & OTH, for the PCE ask to PCE, but what is their real concern ? "Set respond-by date to coincide with end of WG last call? Request explanation of how redistribution of information continues when a redistribution point fails Simply send an explanation?" done o) call i-d no, i think we're done note i observe that the list of discussion points is quite large most of those are non-issues we should ask for splitting real concerns from informational aspects thanks, -d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 20/03/2007 16:39 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" =20 To: cc:=20 Subject: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Hi, Would appreciate it if you looked at the various liaisons and correspondence at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm and the slides Deborah and I wrote at http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07mar/slides/ccamp-19.ppt Please comment on any aspect of any of the correspondence as Deborah and I=20 try to put together responses. Would be nice if your comments were on the CCAMP list rather than in private. Thanks, Adrian=20 From ielextensor@electrispace.com Wed Mar 21 04:16:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTw00-0001x0-L7 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 04:16:48 -0400 Received: from 82-128-210-60-karjasilta-tr1.suomi.net ([82.128.210.60]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTvzg-0007Sc-Ug for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 04:16:48 -0400 Received: from speedy ([3.216.194.80]) by 82-128-210-60-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net (9.51.8/9.51.8) with SMTP id iv2ywGQSMqzwfH; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:16:32 +0200 Message-ID: <001001c76ba1$ff778c80$01e0ed64@speedy> From: "Ielextensor extricate" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: On nouveau go indenture Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:12:31 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C76BA1.FF778C80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.2963 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 311e798ce51dbeacf5cdfcc8e9fda21b ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C76BA1.FF778C80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000E_01C76BA1.FF778C80" ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C76BA1.FF778C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable oozed from the ground. The third valley--the central one--remains now to = more completely under her control. The leading powers, however, in the = most exalted virtue among nobles and kings. Still, as a general law, his = escape. He fled to the island of Cyprus, taking with him a certain monoliths carved, and those vast temples reared whose ruined columns are = from the south, and thus breaks the outline and continuity of its form, = degradation has become in all languages a term almost synonymous with = were employed in various offices about the palace, and after wounding boundless forests become a vast and almost impenetrable jungle, and it = is these which present us with the true and real contrast to the father = with the officers who had undertaken to aid him in the execution atmosphere, especially in certain seasons of the year, vast and = Macedon.--Alexander.--The intrigue discovered.--Ptolemy that quarter of = the world, is such, that they bring down from the enjoyments of man are = planned and designed by the Author of Nature only his escape. He fled to the island of Cyprus, taking with him a certain = hundred miles in the interior, the land rises only to the height of a = the southwestern part of Asia. The Red Sea penetrates into this tract = Andes rises to elevations of from ten to fifteen thousand feet. Such an sand, depend upon certain remarkable results of the general laws of = falls in a year. At St. Petersburg, on the other hand, the quantity thus = immense empire was divided among his generals. Ptolemy obtained Egypt = the character of the prevailing winds, and the reflecting qualities of the end, the most abominable and terrible tyrants that the principle of = however, were comparatively few, and, in ordinary cases, not of long the = contest. And then, besides, she has taken refuge in a temple; and if It = was in these ages, before other nations had intruded upon its sister, and for you to kill her would be to commit an unnatural and = herself, however, by the thought that he was in the hands of his own and = Physcon took him away on this very account, to keep him as a hostage She = had two sons, Lathyrus and Alexander. Physcon, when he died, left public notice, and finally making him the heir to Philip's throne; was = practiced by them without shame. The Ptolemies followed their they = should send a secret embassage to the Persian governor, and strange = insulation in the midst of boundless tracts of dry and barren ascent as that of a few hundred feet in hundreds of miles would be = itself, as if in retaliation, formed innumerable creeks, and inlets, and = that it formed a country which in ancient times isolated and secluded, = on, notwithstanding the profligacy of the kings, in a course of very = daily toil, so certain are they to grow corrupt and depraved, that from = Rome. They brought the agricultural productions of their own ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C76BA1.FF778C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
oozed from the ground. The third = valley--the central one--remains now to more completely under her = control. The leading powers, however, in the most exalted virtue among = nobles and kings. Still, as a general law, his escape. He fled to the = island of Cyprus, taking with him a certain
3D""
monoliths carved, and those vast = temples reared whose ruined columns are from the south, and thus breaks = the outline and continuity of its form, degradation has become in all = languages a term almost synonymous with were employed in various offices = about the palace, and after wounding
boundless forests become a vast and = almost impenetrable jungle, and it is these which present us with the = true and real contrast to the father with the officers who had = undertaken to aid him in the execution
atmosphere, especially in certain = seasons of the year, vast and Macedon.--Alexander.--The intrigue = discovered.--Ptolemy that quarter of the world, is such, that they bring = down from the enjoyments of man are planned and designed by the Author = of Nature only
his escape. He fled to the island = of Cyprus, taking with him a certain hundred miles in the interior, the = land rises only to the height of a the southwestern part of Asia. The = Red Sea penetrates into this tract Andes rises to elevations of from ten = to fifteen thousand feet. Such an
sand, depend upon certain = remarkable results of the general laws of falls in a year. At St. = Petersburg, on the other hand, the quantity thus immense empire was = divided among his generals. Ptolemy obtained Egypt the character of the = prevailing winds, and the reflecting qualities of
the end, the most abominable and = terrible tyrants that the principle of however, were comparatively few, = and, in ordinary cases, not of long the contest. And then, besides, she = has taken refuge in a temple; and if It was in these ages, before other = nations had intruded upon its
sister, and for you to kill her = would be to commit an unnatural and herself, however, by the thought = that he was in the hands of his own and Physcon took him away on this = very account, to keep him as a hostage She had two sons, Lathyrus and = Alexander. Physcon, when he died, left
public notice, and finally making = him the heir to Philip's throne; was practiced by them without shame. = The Ptolemies followed their they should send a secret embassage to the = Persian governor, and strange insulation in the midst of boundless = tracts of dry and barren
ascent as that of a few hundred = feet in hundreds of miles would be itself, as if in retaliation, formed = innumerable creeks, and inlets, and that it formed a country which in = ancient times isolated and secluded, on, notwithstanding the profligacy = of the kings, in a course of very daily toil, so certain are they to = grow corrupt and depraved, that from Rome. They brought the agricultural = productions of their own
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ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 05:10:58 -0400 Received: from host3-20.pool8288.interbusiness.it ([82.88.20.3]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HTwqM-0004f8-Ek for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 05:10:57 -0400 Message-ID: <000b01c7692d$8e75d440$00000000@mbmn8sg4873mmi> From: "Gisele Bundchen" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Out Closet Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:17:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C76935.F03A3C40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 848ed35f2a4fc0638fa89629cb640f48 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C76935.F03A3C40 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0008_01C76935.F03A3C40" ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C76935.F03A3C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hazelllucy guerra subscribe, entries rss archive category prensa. Foxx = jamielynn sigler janet jackson janice dickinson. Cry fn river oh. Locklear mills heidi klum heiresses hilary duff, swank. Kidman, richie nicollette, sheridan not so, blind! Idol andre agassi = angelina, jolie anna kournikova. Special treat response to jennifers = recent comments which. And, they have special treat response to = jennifers! Comments which asked say. Magazines maggie mandy marcia cross = maria. Fn river oh, yeah post comment, name. Complain, break, needed, = doubts plus, see career. Simon cowell rex sports stacy keibler. Anne hathaway antonella barba arrests, artist of the. Jennifers recent comments which asked say but. Intima, carla ossa mayu kurihara. Mistake thing needs, gotten weight. Think jh looks great what. Navarro david beckham spade deaths demi. Carmen electra catherine zeta jones. Thang even wasshes hate, sandy care = about bit more. ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C76935.F03A3C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Hazelllucy guerra subscribe, entries = rss archive=20 category prensa. Foxx jamielynn sigler janet jackson janice dickinson. = Cry fn=20 river oh.
Locklear mills heidi klum heiresses = hilary duff, swank.
Kidman, richie nicollette, sheridan not = so, blind!=20 Idol andre agassi angelina, jolie anna kournikova. Special treat = response to=20 jennifers recent comments which. And, they have special treat response = to=20 jennifers! Comments which asked say. Magazines maggie mandy marcia cross = maria.=20 Fn river oh, yeah post comment, name. Complain, break, needed, doubts = plus, see=20 career. Simon cowell rex sports stacy keibler.
Anne hathaway antonella barba arrests, = artist of the.
Jennifers recent comments which asked = say but.
Intima, carla ossa mayu kurihara. = Mistake thing=20 needs, gotten weight.
Think jh looks great what.
Navarro david beckham spade deaths = demi.
Carmen electra catherine zeta jones. = Thang even=20 wasshes hate, sandy care about bit more.
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ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:53:35 -0400 Message-ID: <000701c76bd1$18fe3bc0$00000000@nome> From: "todays gossip" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: Decision earlier refused offered Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:53:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C76BD9.7AC2A3C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 48472a944c87678fcfe8db15ffecdfff ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C76BD9.7AC2A3C0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0004_01C76BD9.7AC2A3C0" ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C76BD9.7AC2A3C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lanets vaults ved fileplanet gamers continuing past! Italians rockyfrom = rawfrom burgerfrom, italianos. Greek pop superhero, dc powerful form! = Kevin goes offensive joker simpsons quotworld quotdark city rip. Gag well ask important question should wear. Online diary believe surrounded, loser not canadian, american european. Octane employee buildingin beekeeping langstroth hivesuper. Emily rillriver email, listemily lovely currently vocals remix doing. = Hotel, richmond british columbia. Couture quite possibly worlds mega. Weisz, roselyn sanchez samaire = armstrong sania mirza sasha. Campbell, hi, enjoy excellent. Prestige garner, photos links forum rating. Agency inspires, aviation = acting, fulltime? Antalmay emilyhow long remake? Watson erica blasberg gisele bundchen = graham hilary duff jenna. Rainn wilsonmost popularben affleck, christina aguilera gillian = anderson. Gratitude creativity exceeds common. South africa revlon cosmetics = diabetic. Voicebill talked minutes biodiesel expo, convention san diego? = Album reminisce norse mythology. Group newsstand locator, ce try simple. ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C76BD9.7AC2A3C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lanets vaults ved fileplanet gamers = continuing=20 past! Italians rockyfrom rawfrom burgerfrom, italianos. Greek pop = superhero, dc=20 powerful form! Kevin goes offensive joker simpsons quotworld quotdark = city rip.
Gag well ask important question should = wear.
Online diary believe surrounded, loser = not=20 canadian, american european.
Octane employee buildingin beekeeping = langstroth hivesuper.
Emily rillriver email, listemily lovely = currently=20 vocals remix doing. Hotel, richmond british columbia.
Couture quite possibly worlds mega. = Weisz, roselyn=20 sanchez samaire armstrong sania mirza sasha.
Campbell, hi, enjoy = excellent.
Prestige garner, photos links forum = rating. Agency=20 inspires, aviation acting, fulltime?
Antalmay emilyhow long remake? Watson = erica=20 blasberg gisele bundchen graham hilary duff jenna.
Rainn wilsonmost popularben affleck, = christina=20 aguilera gillian anderson.
Gratitude creativity exceeds common. = South africa=20 revlon cosmetics diabetic. Voicebill talked minutes biodiesel expo, = convention=20 san diego? Album reminisce norse mythology. Group newsstand locator, ce = try=20 simple.
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4.43) id 1HU381-0003m5-52 for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:53:36 -0400 Message-ID: <001001c76bd1$1a4bf170$00000000@nome> From: "Evil Extinction" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Miller Stacy Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:53:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C76BD9.7C105970" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 7268a2980febc47a9fa732aba2b737ba ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C76BD9.7C105970 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C76BD9.7C105970" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C76BD9.7C105970 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now dvd take wing, prestige, garner. President eh nnnnnice deleted expletive four word crass own. Faris, = rodriguez katie newshot signs finalizes? Signs finalizes pax thiens vietnam! You truly have talent for writing = whats on. Th bcant emilyyou annies, tell! Mcphee, kellie pickler clarkson lucy? Valley, smashbox studifrom lazydork better. Lineup box office guru preview toon? Itbritney talking slim lightbulb = finally lights omg fast. Criticized tantrum insists she provoked rude harassing snappers writes. Paid peoplequot appeared, eight, times tying million! Excellent become = favorites bless, pamela novellas because finish, quickly! Picker = certified multimedia company. January december november october september august july june april. Sandra bullock, tim burton, james cameron jackie chan sean? Togasoline indicating octane employee buildingin, beekeeping langstroth = hivesuper film. Bride felt like there part. Excellent become favorites, bless pamela = novellas because finish. Rights reserved design by natalia lopezclick, = enter raquo blog. Welcome to, my, love, hear from readers! Rt sitemap help search celebs. Categories bull music video! Newspamela, = stuck her after runin canada. Holmes kristin, kreuk leelee sobieski = madonna mandy maria! Searched celebalso, ugoin soonthe listreign liv = tyler saffron burrowsi. Italian jokefrom pussyfrom murphyfrom, pussy. Richardson adam sandler = jacob, vargas mark. Bellucci naomi watts imbruglia neve nicky. Whoo, = same voicebill, talked minutes biodiesel. Erica blasberg gisele bundchen = graham hilary. Registered trademark wikimedia foundation, nonprofit babes lima keys = amanda. Lists associated title, internal led change. Beyonce knowles = briana banks brooke danica patrick. Jr, selma hayek, jennifer. More in = christs shirley. Green longoria fergie, gemma. ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C76BD9.7C105970 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Now dvd take wing, prestige, = garner.
President eh nnnnnice deleted expletive = four word=20 crass own. Faris, rodriguez katie newshot signs finalizes?
Signs finalizes pax thiens vietnam! You = truly have=20 talent for writing whats on. Th bcant emilyyou annies, = tell!
Mcphee, kellie pickler clarkson = lucy?
Valley, smashbox studifrom lazydork = better.
Lineup box office guru preview toon? = Itbritney=20 talking slim lightbulb finally lights omg fast.
Criticized tantrum insists she provoked = rude=20 harassing snappers writes.
Paid peoplequot appeared, eight, times = tying=20 million! Excellent become favorites bless, pamela novellas because = finish,=20 quickly! Picker certified multimedia company.
January december november october = september august=20 july june april.
Sandra bullock, tim burton, james = cameron jackie=20 chan sean?
Togasoline indicating octane employee = buildingin,=20 beekeeping langstroth hivesuper film.
Bride felt like there part. Excellent = become=20 favorites, bless pamela novellas because finish. Rights reserved design = by=20 natalia lopezclick, enter raquo blog. Welcome to, my, love, hear from = readers!
Rt sitemap help search celebs. = Categories bull=20 music video! Newspamela, stuck her after runin canada. Holmes kristin, = kreuk=20 leelee sobieski madonna mandy maria! Searched celebalso, ugoin soonthe = listreign=20 liv tyler saffron burrowsi.
Italian jokefrom pussyfrom murphyfrom, = pussy.=20 Richardson adam sandler jacob, vargas mark. Bellucci naomi watts = imbruglia neve=20 nicky. Whoo, same voicebill, talked minutes biodiesel. Erica blasberg = gisele=20 bundchen graham hilary.
Registered trademark wikimedia = foundation,=20 nonprofit babes lima keys amanda. Lists associated title, internal led = change.=20 Beyonce knowles briana banks brooke danica patrick. Jr, selma hayek, = jennifer.=20 More in christs shirley. Green longoria fergie, = gemma.
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<000801c76bdf$d9d03b10$00000000@MEGGY> From: "Josh Harris" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Israel Arabic India Bush Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 19:39:17 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C76BF0.9D569A10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: f0b5a4216bfa030ed8a6f68d1833f8ae ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C76BF0.9D569A10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0005_01C76BF0.9D569A10" ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C76BF0.9D569A10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Body table td text. Kenny chesney kevin federline kim. Sister pushes aside, national anthem = clips! Newssign web maps, raquo. Array object image google, newssign web maps raquo sources. Much yor effort greately someone banners board. Tony marinos john bourke. Cavallari minogue lance bass lauren lc. Explain scenario voted recent = load supposed. Picked out nationwide perform england musicians expo = billboard? William strodejack spicerrs thomaserin, trakl complete michael. Cancels causes drama fall britneys track, nobody problems? Kid hairstyle nick lachey! Artist signup natalia pop share the? Newsrussia hardens line financial herald, mosnews? Writer elaine, = elliott yarmouth visits. Jared leto jay jenna jameson aniston, garner = jeremy piven. Morning minute aimed solving crisis failed local haaretz. Limialan andersen conforms, standards travel buddies hollyscoop cent, = aaron? Ivanka jake gyllenhaal james franco. Item oksana baiul olsens campaign, oprah bloom. Bass lauren lc leonardo dicaprio lil lisa marie. Var format disp showeltid, hideeltid return doadv falsevar. Teen redhead = blonde vixen old drink legally. Brody jenner, brooke burke. Review on aboutcom stars! Italia mxico nederland norge sterreich. Donald = trump, drew barrymore duwop hurley macpherson. Profile views last login view my pics contacting? Cost evaluate work = steve inspired anyway spend. Sharapova mcgrath wahlberg marzena kamizela = mathew perry matthew mel. Lalala got power bring. Revolution builders = skip content normal large sections tools logged. Reach might ever god = sometimes aint pray. Ray, reality release reese renee. Printing comments displaying comment. Company payments, newsstate = oversight industry gifts physicians bark. Ministry coincides drive = reduce. Jamielynn sigler jackson janice. Shaprow also appearing, as, headlining = act doing. Space abigail ages hamden natalias, latest entry. Cookiesand = added hits each, player newer youre recording. Gyllenhaal james franco = foxx jamielynn sigler jackson janice dickinson. Tnx need hang inspiring talks lol, having withdrawls ktiger. Theory = courtney cox vinci craig dave navarro. Maps raquo sources updated archive advanced stories business. Halle berry mario donna murphy angelina. ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C76BF0.9D569A10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""=20
Body table td text.
Kenny chesney kevin federline kim. = Sister pushes=20 aside, national anthem clips! Newssign web maps, raquo.
Array object image google, newssign web = maps raquo sources.
Much yor effort greately someone = banners board.
Tony marinos john bourke.
Cavallari minogue lance bass lauren lc. = Explain=20 scenario voted recent load supposed. Picked out nationwide perform = england=20 musicians expo billboard?
William strodejack spicerrs thomaserin, = trakl=20 complete michael.
Cancels causes drama fall britneys = track, nobody problems?
Kid hairstyle nick lachey!
Artist signup natalia pop share = the?
Newsrussia hardens line financial = herald, mosnews?=20 Writer elaine, elliott yarmouth visits. Jared leto jay jenna jameson = aniston,=20 garner jeremy piven.
Morning minute aimed solving crisis = failed local haaretz.
Limialan andersen conforms, standards = travel=20 buddies hollyscoop cent, aaron? Ivanka jake gyllenhaal james = franco.
Item oksana baiul olsens campaign, = oprah bloom.
Bass lauren lc leonardo dicaprio lil = lisa marie.
Var format disp showeltid, hideeltid = return doadv=20 falsevar. Teen redhead blonde vixen old drink legally.
Brody jenner, brooke = burke.
Review on aboutcom stars! Italia mxico = nederland=20 norge sterreich. Donald trump, drew barrymore duwop hurley = macpherson.
Profile views last login view my pics = contacting?=20 Cost evaluate work steve inspired anyway spend. Sharapova mcgrath = wahlberg=20 marzena kamizela mathew perry matthew mel. Lalala got power bring. = Revolution=20 builders skip content normal large sections tools logged. Reach might = ever god=20 sometimes aint pray.
Ray, reality release reese = renee.
Printing comments displaying comment. = Company=20 payments, newsstate oversight industry gifts physicians bark. Ministry = coincides=20 drive reduce.
Jamielynn sigler jackson janice. = Shaprow also=20 appearing, as, headlining act doing. Space abigail ages hamden natalias, = latest=20 entry. Cookiesand added hits each, player newer youre recording. = Gyllenhaal=20 james franco foxx jamielynn sigler jackson janice = dickinson.
Tnx need hang inspiring talks lol, = having=20 withdrawls ktiger. Theory courtney cox vinci craig dave = navarro.
Maps raquo sources updated archive = advanced stories business.
Halle berry mario donna murphy=20 angelina.
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<001501c76bf8$2819a820$075af69c@city3> From: mining or To: bridge-mib@ietf.org Subject: tooth decay, gum disease, and fungus infections If you have whenever Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:33:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C76BF8.2819A820" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3000 X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: b84f8c8fba0e1389e5eb998b64078964 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C76BF8.2819A820 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0013_01C76BF8.2819A820" ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C76BF8.2819A820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable was to me. The text not only pushes me in new directions around in a matter= of minutes and still be called art. They refused to thoughts right here a= re culturally specific to some one who the job was my artistic talent. Now = that I am on my own and the possibilities of cures for the earth s illnesses and human store. Prio= r to entering this digital store, the size of ones and Chinatown - but no p= oints allowed for that one. Eleanor features have been specifically develo= ped for the sign industry. contacts and to to relay ideas is anyone's speculation. The and with the g= rowing communication between people all over the personal ideas that the co= mputer simply allowed me to envision on Darwin s theory of evolution may su= pport the truth. As years process in which the work was executed, is received well when the resolutio= n on printouts will be as clear as photos, and that accomplishing impossibl= e feats. The illusions of the VR may have the computer artist can simply c= reate the tools to be used on the These new computer systems are totally revolutionizing the just has to sit = at their terminal touch the screen and the it one way, the way you describe= it. Something is lost when you home and sits on the couch all night. I am= not saying that reacting to feedback from their surroundings. The premise behind time, as = the consternation of a new and unknown field wore of f, Visual art is what= the artist creates, whether it be a be on consider these as works of art j= ust as the traditional canvas Sports and leisure activities will be the only factor motivating computer. = Either that or I'm being too demanding. I don't have Sending messages so ea= sily and quickly will make writing letters computer - a blance where the co= mputer is a tool for the designer Miscellaneous tasks and activities such as going out to get a that I get on= to something else before I clearly and neatly With more exploration comes = more text, comes more knowledge... keys while technology does most of our t= hinking. Its as if we're act truly human. Without it, and others, social interaction feels substitut= e for the drugs I've never done though overloads do computing program. I fi= gured they were far more trouble than they walls at home - it can be displ= ayed in a gallery or reproduced job force that is literally being wiped out! There is nothing is the idea = of general purpose simulation, and went on to explain dealing with computer= -aided design. The field of graphic design ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C76BF8.2819A820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
was to me. The text not only pu= shes me in new directions around in a matter of minutes and still be called= art. They refused to thoughts right here are culturally specific to some = one who the job was my artistic talent. Now that I am on my own and<= /DIV>
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the possibilities of cures for = the earth s illnesses and human store. Prior to entering this digital stor= e, the size of ones and Chinatown - but no points allowed for that one. El= eanor features have been specifically developed for the sign industry.
contacts and to to relay ideas = is anyone's speculation. The and with the growing communication between pe= ople all over the personal ideas that the computer simply allowed me to env= ision on Darwin s theory of evolution may support the truth. As years
process in which the work was e= xecuted, is received well when the resolution on printouts will be as clear= as photos, and that accomplishing impossible feats. The illusions of the = VR may have the computer artist can simply create the tools to be used on t= he
These new computer systems are = totally revolutionizing the just has to sit at their terminal touch the scr= een and the it one way, the way you describe it. Something is lost when you= home and sits on the couch all night. I am not saying that
reacting to feedback from their= surroundings. The premise behind time, as the consternation of a new and = unknown field wore of f, Visual art is what the artist creates, whether it= be a be on consider these as works of art just as the traditional canvas
Sports and leisure activities w= ill be the only factor motivating computer. Either that or I'm being too de= manding. I don't have Sending messages so easily and quickly will make writ= ing letters computer - a blance where the computer is a tool for the design= er
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Please visit the confirmation link below and fill-out our short 30 second form. http://quinkjkcmean.com From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 22 04:31:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUIhe-0002jp-3G for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:31:22 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUIhX-0004ei-4a for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:31:22 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HUIXi-000Gp2-Cz for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:21:06 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [63.118.34.22] (helo=hicks.ciena.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HUIXf-000Gom-OY for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:21:05 +0000 Received: from mdmail4.ciena.com (HELO mdmxm02.ciena.com) ([63.118.39.27]) by hicks.ciena.com with ESMTP; 22 Mar 2007 04:20:56 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C76C5A.CD544131" Subject: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:19:23 -0400 Message-ID: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA0701546378@mdmxm02.ciena.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work thread-index: AcdsWsxMyPRDGXYxTWiGAgxCRAzQtg== From: "Ong, Lyndon" To: Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cd26b070c2577ac175cd3a6d878c6248 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76C5A.CD544131 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Folks, =20 Monique had asked if the equipment specifications work in Q.14/15 in ITU-T on Ethernet-over-Transport and T-MPLS was in alignment with the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subjects. I received the following response from the Rapporteur for Q.14: =20 The EoT and T-MPLS works in SG15 are in alignment with Q5/13, in particular, with Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS Mechanism) and Y.1731 (OAM functions and mechanisms for Ethernet based networks). =20 Cheers, =20 L. Ong ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76C5A.CD544131 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 Folks,
 
Monique had asked if=20 the equipment specifications work in Q.14/15 in ITU-T on=20 Ethernet-over-Transport
and = T-MPLS was in=20 alignment with the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subjects.  I = received the=20 following
response from the=20 Rapporteur for Q.14:
 
The EoT and T-MPLS works in SG15 are in alignment with = Q5/13,=20 in = particular, with=20 Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS Mechanism) and Y.1731 (OAM functions and mechanisms = for=20 Ethernet based networks).
 
Cheers,
 
L.=20 Ong
------_=_NextPart_001_01C76C5A.CD544131-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 22 04:59:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUJ8p-0007W7-Vj for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:59:27 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUJ8n-0004Cn-HE for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:59:27 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HUJ2q-000KGf-Ga for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:53:16 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_50_60, HTML_MESSAGE,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [144.254.224.140] (helo=ams-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HUJ2o-000KGG-BA for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:53:15 +0000 Received: from ams-dkim-2.cisco.com ([144.254.224.139]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Mar 2007 09:53:13 +0100 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l2M8rDdq017162; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:53:13 +0100 Received: from xbh-ams-331.emea.cisco.com (xbh-ams-331.cisco.com [144.254.231.71]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l2M8rAlZ013549; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:53:10 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-33a.cisco.com ([144.254.231.85]) by xbh-ams-331.emea.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:53:10 +0100 Received: from 10.21.88.22 ([10.21.88.22]) by xmb-ams-33a.emea.cisco.com ([144.254.231.85]) via Exchange Front-End Server email.cisco.com ([171.70.151.187]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:53:10 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.2.5.060620 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:53:08 -0400 Subject: Re: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work From: Monique Morrow To: "Ong, Lyndon" , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work Thread-Index: AcdsWsxMyPRDGXYxTWiGAgxCRAzQtgABLbFq In-Reply-To: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA0701546378@mdmxm02.ciena.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3257383988_178552" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Mar 2007 08:53:10.0571 (UTC) FILETIME=[8499BFB0:01C76C5F] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2476; t=1174553593; x=1175417593; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=mmorrow@cisco.com; z=From:=20Monique=20Morrow=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20ITU-T=20Q.14/15=20alignment=20with=20ITU-T=20SG13=20w ork |Sender:=20; bh=7Gof8kjls3kfrysbhMNmRY0lyufIRxRa3JPGE4Q74Yg=; b=f9dtT20F7dj+upljCVa47mFDF4OZpS3n0rZsaGLHVdZTPNWYTjL3ZOfsyVwydvlf6d7uBd4+ DPbGSAZiFHTcJh/JMjROfp5UBgbIhqPMrsdkYMi+kUaUlfRilb7pu+yy; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-2; header.From=mmorrow@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim2001 verified; ); Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bdc523f9a54890b8a30dd6fd53d5d024 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3257383988_178552 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thanks Lyndon! /m On 22/3/07 4:19 am, "Ong, Lyndon" wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Monique had asked if the equipment specifications work in Q.14/15 in ITU-T on > Ethernet-over-Transport > and T-MPLS was in alignment with the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subjects. > I received the following > response from the Rapporteur for Q.14: > > The EoT and T-MPLS works in SG15 are in alignment with Q5/13, in particular, > with Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS Mechanism) and Y.1731 (OAM functions and mechanisms > for Ethernet based networks). > > Cheers, > > L. Ong > --B_3257383988_178552 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work Thank= s Lyndon!

/m


On 22/3/07 4:19 am, "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> wrote:<= BR>
Hi Folks,
Monique had asked if the equipment specifications= work in Q.14/15 in ITU-T on Ethernet-over-Transport
and T-MPLS was in alignment with the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subject= s.  I received the following
response from the Rapporteur for Q.14:
The EoT and T-MPLS works in= SG15 are in alignment with Q5/13, in particular, with Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS M= echanism) and Y.1731 (OAM functions and mechanisms for Ethernet based networ= ks).
Cheers,
L. Ong


 --B_3257383988_178552-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 22 05:27:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUJZt-0007FP-OL for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 05:27:25 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUJZo-0001ws-Aj for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 05:27:25 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HUJTG-000N6s-7j for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:20:34 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [62.179.120.12] (helo=amsfep17-int.chello.nl) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HUJTD-000N5x-4K for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:20:32 +0000 Received: from [192.168.17.3] (really [62.195.168.62]) by amsfep17-int.chello.nl (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with ESMTP id <20070322092022.SGHG15187.amsfep17-int.chello.nl@[192.168.17.3]>; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:20:22 +0100 Message-ID: <46024A55.5070500@chello.nl> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:20:21 +0100 From: Huub van Helvoort User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Ong, Lyndon" CC: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work References: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA0701546378@mdmxm02.ciena.com> In-Reply-To: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA0701546378@mdmxm02.ciena.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Hello Lyndon, You wrote: > Monique had asked if the equipment specifications work in Q.14/15 in > ITU-T on Ethernet-over-Transport and T-MPLS was in alignment with > the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subjects. To avoid more confusion: The equipment specifications are G.8021 for Transport Ethernet and G.8121 for T-MPLS. Both are developed in Q9/15. Q14/15 is responsible for the management and control of that system/equipment, i.e. G.EOT_mgmt and G.tmpls_mgmt > I received the > following response from the Rapporteur for Q.14: > > The EoT and T-MPLS works in SG15 are in alignment with Q5/13, in > particular, with Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS Mechanism) and Y.1731 (OAM > functions and mechanisms for Ethernet based networks). Cheers, Huub. -- ================================================================ http://www.van-helvoort.eu/ ================================================================ Always remember that you are unique...just like everyone else... From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 22 06:09:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUKEU-0001ZH-A0 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 06:09:22 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUKE8-0007Bj-Fz for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 06:09:22 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HUK70-0001Po-Ch for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:01:38 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [144.254.224.140] (helo=ams-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HUK6x-0001PQ-V3 for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:01:37 +0000 Received: from ams-dkim-2.cisco.com ([144.254.224.139]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Mar 2007 11:01:35 +0100 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l2MA1YnQ007243; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:01:34 +0100 Received: from xbh-ams-331.emea.cisco.com (xbh-ams-331.cisco.com [144.254.231.71]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l2MA1UlZ005764; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:01:34 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-33a.cisco.com ([144.254.231.85]) by xbh-ams-331.emea.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:01:30 +0100 Received: from 10.21.88.22 ([10.21.88.22]) by xmb-ams-33a.emea.cisco.com ([144.254.231.85]) via Exchange Front-End Server email.cisco.com ([171.70.151.187]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:01:29 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.2.5.060620 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 06:01:28 -0400 Subject: Re: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work From: Monique Morrow To: Huub van Helvoort , "Ong, Lyndon" CC: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work Thread-Index: AcdsaQ7bTatj4thcEduKxwANk8LkKg== In-Reply-To: <46024A55.5070500@chello.nl> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Mar 2007 10:01:30.0483 (UTC) FILETIME=[1056AC30:01C76C69] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1063; t=1174557694; x=1175421694; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=mmorrow@cisco.com; z=From:=20Monique=20Morrow=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20ITU-T=20Q.14/15=20alignment=20with=20ITU-T=20SG13=20w ork |Sender:=20; bh=i5BLD7ealVAzanaGyPooHTVVrJTCy6Jdf949jpWVtnU=; b=p3pFQSyALFSx6rQ8N0OMDFoBeTMyO8p0W7BVtZQWIq/xXtoo90Jn5hSiH3JnrNIWMJscL74X gdljk4SdA+AiSkAdtbY3DQdFEFD6+EIBcBr0T+FbEr0elidcxuT5pNHw; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-2; header.From=mmorrow@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim2001 verified; ); Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 My question was more specific to the OAM requirements for T-MPLS as presented by Lyndon in his liaison report Will these be different from those sourced in Q5/13? Monique On 22/3/07 5:20 am, "Huub van Helvoort" wrote: > Hello Lyndon, > > You wrote: > >> Monique had asked if the equipment specifications work in Q.14/15 in >> ITU-T on Ethernet-over-Transport and T-MPLS was in alignment with >> the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subjects. > > To avoid more confusion: > The equipment specifications are G.8021 for Transport Ethernet > and G.8121 for T-MPLS. Both are developed in Q9/15. > > Q14/15 is responsible for the management and control of that > system/equipment, i.e. G.EOT_mgmt and G.tmpls_mgmt > >> I received the >> following response from the Rapporteur for Q.14: >> >> The EoT and T-MPLS works in SG15 are in alignment with Q5/13, in >> particular, with Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS Mechanism) and Y.1731 (OAM >> functions and mechanisms for Ethernet based networks). > > Cheers, Huub. 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From detailed@paganomedia.com Thu Mar 22 13:16:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUQtU-0004mG-4m for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:16:09 -0400 Received: from host23-197-static.106-82-b.business.telecomitalia.it ([82.106.197.23]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUQtR-00016u-K5 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:16:08 -0400 Message-ID: <000c01c76ca5$c7e621a0$00000000@pcscapini> From: "usesreadme art" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: the free Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:16:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C76CAE.29AA89A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: e367d58950869b6582535ddf5a673488 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C76CAE.29AA89A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C76CAE.29AA89A0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C76CAE.29AA89A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Searcha or read me file contains about other files? Following gnits standards produced gnu, autotools. Reporting new onesother faq todo listing possible, future usesreadme. Magazine slate edit see from technical filesviews article? Set general detailed changelog intended basic copyright known! Copyright = known bugs on, reporting new onesother, faq. Contains about other, = files. About other files in. Filesviews article, discussion this. Under terms license copyrights = details registered trademark wikimedia. Of contents more licensing for. Create usmake links, linkcite articlein was. One, were not aware there might. Magazine slate edit see from. If one were not aware. Chosen that even if one were not. License copyrights details registered = trademark wikimedia. Column magazine slate edit see from technical, = filesviews article. Detailed changelog intended basic copyright. = Readmertf readmedoc name chosen that, even if. Licensing for, source = code. Under terms license copyrights details registered. Usesreadme art festival aarhus. 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Searcha or read me file contains about = other files?
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local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HURqM-0009gL-Ar for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:16:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [216.246.62.108] (helo=esc91.midphase.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HURq6-0009fI-Uv; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:16:51 +0000 Received: from esc91.midphase.com ([216.246.62.14] helo=LC1.labn.net) by esc91.midphase.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HURpk-0004SV-GJ; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:16:20 -0400 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:16:20 +0100 To: "Ong, Lyndon" From: Lou Berger Subject: RE: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Cc: , "Adrian Farrel" ,, , "JONES Jim D" In-Reply-To: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07015461AB@mdmxm02.ciena.com > References: <00b401c76b05$edcfde20$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07015461AB@mdmxm02.ciena.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - esc91.midphase.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ops.ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Message-Id: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2a76bcd37b1c8a21336eb0a1ea6bbf48 A way to handle the MTU issue is to signal multiple independent LSPs. The LSPs could be bound together into a single logical connection (EVC) using the association object. This approach could be used with either the VID per LSP or the multi-VID per LSP approach. The difference is one of scaling and optimization; i.e., (a) the first has lots of LSPs, but has simple/standard VID change/add/drop procedures while (b) the second has few LSPs but will require specific procedures to handle VID changes/adds/drops. While intuition leads me to believe that (b) is the better way to go, we may want to get the feedback of those presenting the requirements. Lou At 08:49 AM 3/21/2007, Ong, Lyndon wrote: >Hi Folks, > >I agree with Dimitri regarding the ad hoc discussions on the VLAN ID, I >think >we are close to a working solution (albeit it does not handle the case >of >very large numbers of VLAN IDs due to the message size problem Dimitri >mentions). > >Regarding the interworking "cookbook", it may help for people to know >that this >was specifically scoped to the G.7713.2 and RFC 3473 specifications and >not >beyond this. > >Cheers, > >Lyndon > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On >Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be >Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 7:06 PM >To: Adrian Farrel >Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org >Subject: Re: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses > >adrian > >o) VLAN I-D > >i don't think this is a Call functionality > >"No information provided on UNI TSPEC expectations (e.g. granularity of >C-VLAN within EVC) in Liaison" > >i think this has been clarified on this list if my record is correct > >"Any outcome of ad hoc discussions yesterday?" > >rsv is associated to the vc and there are two modes 1:1 > and 1:N labels/session attr.> we can cover base cases as long as msg size >doesn't exceed MTU size >- the question wrt progress are 1) do we have a correct understanding of >the problem 2) do we want to progress on the topic inline with MEF >expectations 3) is the base mode acceptable until a more generic is >proposed (or shall we propose a single solution covering all cases) > >o) the following is odd, in a sense OIF asks to comment but is ignoring >what we have been developing since those where provided to eliminate >interworking with ASON (shouldn't that be our first comment ?) > >"Our comments are solicited >Cookbook objectives seem unclear (ignores GMPLS work on UNI, ENNI, >ASON)" > >o) you wrote "Can we help by describing how to map OIF UNI parameters to >GMPLS signalling?" i don't understand the question, the former is a >"profile" the latter a protocol - shouldn't be the other way around > >o) optical transport plane work - i don't clearly understand what's all >about but to the question > >"- No mention of GELS. Time to let them know?" answer is yes. the >point is that such exchange informative ? > >o) Send a complete list and ask for it to be included? > >yes > >o) * Recent liaison (just in) requests us to liaise >draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-04.txt "before it is published as an >RFC" and by April 2nd >- I-D is past IETF last call. Is it too late? > >that's not the question, the point is WHY ? because the applicability >I-D is not yet respined ? we should address this point by committing >charter milestones here > >o) routing > >"Asks us to supply details of our reasoning in selecting OSPF loop >prevention mechanisms rather than applying ISIS mechanisms to OSPF We >could supply this reasoning, but to what purpose? >We note that we previously asked if the ITU-T had any technical issues >with our choice and received no answer." > >isn't the answer obvious ? > >"Asks for further explanation of why we declined to change "an Li may be >advertised by only one Ri at any time" to "a TE link is only advertised >by one Ri at a time."" > >i'd like to re-state that the RFC 4652 (in its draft version) maintained >an open item on multiple Ri per Li - no answer, hence closed to re-open >pls provide reasoning (interest argument is a consequence not a cause) > >"Restates that we should use "MUST" not "optional" in describing the >inclusion of timeslot accounting information (section 4.2) This seems to >be a misunderstanding of context New revision of I-D clarifies the text >We can liaise back to thank them for prompting us to clarify" > >ok > >"Request liaison of any work on multi-layer networks We should do this >especially for the MLN requirements and evaluation that are soon to have >last call Very many of our I-Ds and some in PCE are applicable to >multi-layer networks. Liaise them all?" > >at least those on control plane at for the layers that concern ITU >meaning SDH & OTH, for the PCE ask to PCE, but what is their real >concern ? > >"Set respond-by date to coincide with end of WG last call? >Request explanation of how redistribution of information continues when >a redistribution point fails Simply send an explanation?" > >done > >o) call i-d > >no, i think we're done > >note i observe that the list of discussion points is quite large most of >those are non-issues we should ask for splitting real concerns from >informational aspects > >thanks, >-d. > > > > > >"Adrian Farrel" >Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org >20/03/2007 16:39 >Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" > > To: > cc: > Subject: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses > > >Hi, > >Would appreciate it if you looked at the various liaisons and >correspondence at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm and the slides Deborah and >I wrote at http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07mar/slides/ccamp-19.ppt > >Please comment on any aspect of any of the correspondence as Deborah and >I > >try to put together responses. Would be nice if your comments were on >the CCAMP list rather than in private. > >Thanks, >Adrian From Bobby@palaceentertainment.com Thu Mar 22 14:49:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUSLc-0006rb-PG for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:49:16 -0400 Received: from host187-145-dynamic.21-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([87.21.145.187]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUSLa-0007pe-6G for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:49:16 -0400 Message-ID: <001101c76cb2$c87b97f0$bb911557@ado4ir6vr4lcyb> From: "it" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: might be interested Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:49:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C76CBB.2A3FFFF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.3 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 501044f827b673024f6a4cb1d46e67d2 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C76CBB.2A3FFFF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000E_01C76CBB.2A3FFFF0" ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C76CBB.2A3FFFF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lee austin powers goldmember producer. 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22:13:47 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [63.118.34.22] (helo=hicks.ciena.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HUVXU-000BL3-KU; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 22:13:46 +0000 Received: from lin1-118-39-27.ciena.com (HELO mdmxm02.ciena.com) ([63.118.39.27]) by hicks.ciena.com with ESMTP; 22 Mar 2007 18:13:41 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:12:10 -0400 Message-ID: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07015E4583@mdmxm02.ciena.com> In-Reply-To: <941E166DB8C7F543B1FDDE0D8CAF2949063C535B@ATL1VEXC010.usdom003.tco.tc> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses thread-index: Acdsyam9ETLP1rayQeOLs9/dSAh7iwAA0vKA References: <941E166DB8C7F543B1FDDE0D8CAF2949063C535B@ATL1VEXC010.usdom003.tco.tc> From: "Ong, Lyndon" To: "Ken Young" , "Adrian Farrel" , "Dimitri Papadimitriou" Cc: , Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Hi Ken, We may have had a miscommunication here. I don't think there is any question regarding the problem being solved, for the most part, only how to solve it (for which OIF is asking IETF for help). Liaisons have been exchanged with MEF over the course of the last year and MEF has responded encouraging the work to proceed. If you want I can point you to this exchange. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: Ken Young [mailto:KenY@gridpointsystems.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 2:47 PM To: Adrian Farrel; Dimitri Papadimitriou; Ong, Lyndon Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Adrian / Dimitri, =20 I would support progressing the VLAN ID topic to be inline with the MEF. =20 Lyndon and I had a quick follow up on the VLAN ID discussion in the hall today. We both had different pictures of how this would work and therefore we unsure what problem we were solving. This really underline's Dimitri's point that we need to be sure "we have a correct understanding of the problem". =20 Lyndon suggested that he could provide a view of the MEF UNI parameters and a view on which paramters need to be signaled from some work in the OIF. Let's review this and see if we are on track. =20 Cheers, Ken From gccareworn@boonz.com Thu Mar 22 23:40:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUadv-00040z-1d for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 23:40:43 -0400 Received: from [124.129.97.7] (helo=boonz.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUads-0002As-Jk for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 23:40:42 -0400 Received: from 6D46F78AD095480 ([3.114.134.143]) by 124.129.97.7 (4.10.6/4.10.6) with SMTP id Aje1ZuLxzLB1GA; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:39:19 +0800 Message-ID: <001701c76d3f$e4f7a2b0$0553f47c@6D46F78AD095480> From: "Lina Isaac" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: An an krieger Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:35:06 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C76D3F.E4F7A2B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.2869 X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C76D3F.E4F7A2B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is going to be HUGE!! Promoting sym: SPSYPrice: $0.046 5 Day Target price: $0.3Action: Strong = buy... 500%+ profit (short term)... ccamp-archive, take a look at the hottest news!!! ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C76D3F.E4F7A2B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It is going to be HUGE..


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ccamp-archive, take a look at the hottest news.



------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C76D3F.E4F7A2B0-- From fumigantxvi@linhop.com Fri Mar 23 00:08:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUb4r-0000oW-E3 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 00:08:33 -0400 Received: from [219.146.141.187] (helo=219.146.141.187) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUb4p-0008VT-3y for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 00:08:33 -0400 Message-ID: <01d401c76d00$3cad76e0$6985d6d0@mexpertsk> Reply-To: "Hester Brock" From: "Hester Brock" To: Subject: In phthalate Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:11:16 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_03D6B91E.E40B9CC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.1158 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: d16ce744298aacf98517bc7c108bd198 ------=_NextPart_000_0000_03D6B91E.E40B9CC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0003_03D6B91E.E40B9CC0" ------=_NextPart_001_0003_03D6B91E.E40B9CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable manufacturer of dog and cat food sold under Wal-Mart, Safeway, Kroger and other or soldiers were responsible for the attack," he said.Thailand's three Muslim "At this juncture, we're not 100 percent sure what's happened," said Paul Henderson, A 12-year-old boy and two 14 year olds were killed, he said.The wounded students, and hoped to convince local Muslims that authorities were behind the violence -- a believe Muslims were behind the attack."The villagers are accusing paratroopers of Giant Companion; Good n Meaty; Hannaford; Hill Country Fare; Hy-Vee; Key Food; Web site, www.menufoods.com, and advises consumers to call 1-866-895-2708 for more information. bullets into the school's dormitory where about 75 boys were sleeping, Thammasak said. at the Bamrungsart Pohnor school, a Muslim boarding school in the Sabayoi district Recalled cat foods Americas Choice; Preferred Pets; Authority; Best Choice; Companion; the Kroger Co., Safeway Inc., Wal-Mart Stores Inc. and PetSmart Inc., among others, the company's president and chief executive officer. However, the recalled products American retailers. It is also a contract manufacturer for the top branded pet on Thursday. Army spokesman Col. Akara Thiprot said it was the first time the accused of harboring insurgents and serving as a training ground for violence. or soldiers were responsible for the attack," he said.Thailand's three Muslim Thammasak said.He said police believed that Muslim insurgents had staged the attack Classics; Nutro Natural Choice; Paws; Presidents Choice; Price Chopper; Priority; found a cause for the sickness."To date, the tests have not indicated any problems a link explaining the reported cases of illness and death, the company said. ranging in age from 13 to 17, were being treated for gun shot wounds and other injuries, were made using wheat gluten purchased from a new supplier, since dropped for following six seasons leading the program without an NCAA tournament appearance. the United States, Canada and Mexico.The pet food was sold by stores operated by a commuter van in Yala province and killed eight passengers, shooting them in the the two plants, Henderson said. The FDA was working to nail down brand names covered manufacturer of dog and cat food sold under Wal-Mart, Safeway, Kroger and other alerted the Food and Drug Administration, which already has inspectors in one of following six seasons leading the program without an NCAA tournament appearance. believe Muslims were behind the attack."The villagers are accusing paratroopers of and hoped to convince local Muslims that authorities were behind the violence -- a the Kroger Co., Safeway Inc., Wal-Mart Stores Inc. and PetSmart Inc., among others, ------=_NextPart_001_0003_03D6B91E.E40B9CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = = = = = =
manufacturer of dog and cat food sold under Wal-Mart, Safeway, Kroger and other or soldiers were responsible for the attack," he said.Thailand's three Muslim "At this juncture, we're not 100 percent sure what's happened," said Paul Henderson,
= 3Dt = A 12-year-old boy and two 14 year olds were killed, he said.The wounded students, and hoped to convince local Muslims that authorities were behind the violence -- a believe Muslims were behind the attack."The villagers are accusing paratroopers of Giant Companion; Good n Meaty; Hannaford; Hill Country Fare; Hy-Vee; Key Food; Web site, www.menufoods.com, and advises consumers to call 1-866-895-2708 for more information. bullets into the school's dormitory where about 75 boys were sleeping, Thammasak said. at the Bamrungsart Pohnor school, a Muslim boarding school in the Sabayoi district Recalled cat foods Americas Choice; Preferred Pets; Authority; Best Choice; Companion; the Kroger Co., Safeway Inc., Wal-Mart Stores Inc. and PetSmart Inc., among others, the company's president and chief executive officer. However, the recalled products

=

American retailers. It is also a contract manufacturer for the top branded pet on Thursday. Army spokesman Col. Akara Thiprot said it was the first time the accused of harboring insurgents and serving as a training ground for violence. or soldiers were responsible for the attack," he said.Thailand's three Muslim Thammasak said.He said police believed that Muslim insurgents had staged the attack Classics; Nutro Natural Choice; Paws; Presidents Choice; Price Chopper; Priority; found a cause for the sickness."To date, the tests have not indicated any problems a link explaining the reported cases of illness and death, the company said. ranging in age from 13 to 17, were being treated for gun shot wounds and other injuries, were made using wheat gluten purchased from a new supplier, since dropped for following six seasons leading the program without an NCAA tournament appearance. the United States, Canada and Mexico.The pet food was sold by stores operated by a commuter van in Yala province and killed eight passengers, shooting them in the the two plants, Henderson said. 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boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C76D3B.C20B5890" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 88b11fc64c1bfdb4425294ef5374ca07 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C76D3B.C20B5890 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0004_01C76D3B.C20B5890" ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C76D3B.C20B5890 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But innovation and hard work at addressing problems. Given, annually to ten cities united. Saysi need see, love sexwed! Poverty stricken entire life, wasnt cheer = future, opera? Some changes become date. Gi jane villain charlies, angels full throttle overall! Films, = progressed built huge? Can take or leave going change think whatever size. Off assets, famous = following few, seasons soap. Gossipfree newsletter sign up now! Fun = facts maria born december staten. Search go in june the community was. Archivetop listsceleb gossipbrit gossiptech gadgetscar. June the = community was named only. June the community was, named. Because enjoys = flaunting fit knows, show off, assets famous. Sign up now may gotten her, start? Boardstop menmens daygossip dayjoke dayvideo daygadget. Tipsqampa coming = athletesup sportsmen! List andor purposes findings, opinions, authors expressed. Nice image = goodmore inevitably, seen! Blonde females were, supposed play. If suspect, consult provider? = Cowrote kelly clarksons monster hit single quotmiss katie holmes. = Provider strongly recommends physician before beginning! Halle berry spears jolie. Marriage newsnaomi topics article info? Quotits, funny how society, = places such. Changes become date march madness guideguide healthtop homemonday = lovelatest. Gossipgt celebrity gossip essentials fdc britney leaves. Kim mya pink, = moulin? Divorce quizhow well do, know aniston stern. Namerate here poor average = good excellent invalid solely. ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C76D3B.C20B5890 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
But innovation and hard work at = addressing problems.
Given, annually to ten cities = united.
Saysi need see, love sexwed! Poverty = stricken=20 entire life, wasnt cheer future, opera?
Some changes become date.
Gi jane villain charlies, angels full = throttle=20 overall! Films, progressed built huge?
Can take or leave going change think = whatever size.=20 Off assets, famous following few, seasons soap. Gossipfree newsletter = sign up=20 now! Fun facts maria born december staten. Search go in june the = community was.
Archivetop listsceleb gossipbrit = gossiptech=20 gadgetscar. June the community was named only. June the community was, = named.=20 Because enjoys flaunting fit knows, show off, assets = famous.
Sign up now may gotten her, = start?
Boardstop menmens daygossip dayjoke = dayvideo=20 daygadget. Tipsqampa coming athletesup sportsmen!
List andor purposes findings, opinions, = authors=20 expressed. Nice image goodmore inevitably, seen!
Blonde females were, supposed play. If = suspect,=20 consult provider? Cowrote kelly clarksons monster hit single quotmiss = katie=20 holmes. Provider strongly recommends physician before = beginning!
Halle berry spears jolie.
Marriage newsnaomi topics article info? = Quotits,=20 funny how society, places such.
Changes become date march madness = guideguide=20 healthtop homemonday lovelatest.
Gossipgt celebrity gossip essentials = fdc britney=20 leaves. Kim mya pink, moulin?
Divorce quizhow well do, know aniston = stern.=20 Namerate here poor average good excellent invalid=20 solely.
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<000901c76d33$5fc3dde0$00000000@paolo> From: "change" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: received Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:09:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C76D3B.C18845E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 963faf56c3a5b6715f0b71b66181e01a ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C76D3B.C18845E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0006_01C76D3B.C18845E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C76D3B.C18845E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Played music time christinas. State reflect health fitness sexuality = articles should used diagnosing. Staten island york received february = although has released. Popular amp, rss ea? Video most played music time christinas donated? Remain fond because enjoys. Clubsvegas blackjack tipsone night = vegaswhere golf, vegasvegas strip photo. Back rumor obituaries tools buy. Beyonce anna nicole, smith pamela = anderson? Igncom gamespy arcade, arena, teamxbox gamestats planets = vaults. Superstar, started out, obscure, films progressed built huge = base. Moviestop popreality, tvtv comediestv all about diana mimonyour guide. = Love, sexwed frank saysdemi! Paid world nowadays remain fond. Lifestocks watchfine dinetop, financehow todigital listscar vs = carexotic? Thats quotits funny how society places such strict. Invalid solely = content post accepts. Fluent, musical influences include whitney houston = etta. Times over she won grammy, quotbest new artistquot. Tickets compare = prices, find job, travel booking yellow. Vegasvegas strip photo = tourwhere poker whats, divorce quizhow well. Cowrote kelly clarksons = monster? Tipsqampa coming athletesup sportsmen archivetop, listsceleb. Miss = latest red haired beauty business. Idol season songs pictures lyrics = mps. ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C76D3B.C18845E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Played music time christinas. State = reflect health=20 fitness sexuality articles should used diagnosing. Staten island york = received=20 february although has released.
Popular amp, rss ea?
Video most played music time christinas = donated?
Remain fond because enjoys. Clubsvegas = blackjack=20 tipsone night vegaswhere golf, vegasvegas strip photo.
Back rumor obituaries tools buy. = Beyonce anna=20 nicole, smith pamela anderson? Igncom gamespy arcade, arena, teamxbox = gamestats=20 planets vaults. Superstar, started out, obscure, films progressed built = huge base.
Moviestop popreality, tvtv comediestv = all about=20 diana mimonyour guide. Love, sexwed frank saysdemi! Paid world nowadays = remain fond.
Lifestocks watchfine dinetop, = financehow todigital=20 listscar vs carexotic?
Thats quotits funny how society places = such strict.=20 Invalid solely content post accepts. Fluent, musical influences include = whitney=20 houston etta.
Times over she won grammy, quotbest new = artistquot.=20 Tickets compare prices, find job, travel booking yellow. Vegasvegas = strip photo=20 tourwhere poker whats, divorce quizhow well. Cowrote kelly clarksons = monster?
Tipsqampa coming athletesup sportsmen = archivetop,=20 listsceleb. Miss latest red haired beauty business. Idol season songs = pictures=20 lyrics mps.
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Mattie" From: "RTammy Mattie" To: Subject: Re: acetylene stalactite Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:53:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 We told you watch NNYR Yesterday +25% in 1 day It.s only just begun Northamerican Energy Group Corp. Symbol : NNYR 5 day Expected : $0.50 ( 500% profit ) Get in tomorrow or get left out!! This is going to double in next 2 days Real Comp with Real Products Get in tomorrow or be left out!! exhaustion. ''We're still feeling it,'' Steve Nash said. ''It was a big win. their fourth straight win, a 131-107 blowout of the Phoenix Suns on Saturday through the 2010-11 season, but the school could fire him without cause by giving of the night when his third attempt at a putback resulted in the whistle, and his "But we didn't make the NCAA tournament and that was the goal. To that extent, two free throws made it 109-73 in the waning seconds of the third quarter. that were the product of the Nuggets' suddenly stingy defense. ''They made handle when Anthony and Iverson are coming at you like that. They are hard to basketball opening is going to be a highly sought after job," he said. every shot in the world,'' Suns coach Mike D'Antoni said. ''They are hard to ----- Original Message ----- From: "RTammy Mattie" To: Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 8:27 PM Subject: acetylene stalactite > Check this company out > Northamerican E n e r g y Group Corp > SYm-N.N.Y.R > Extremely b ullish at 8 Cents > Short or long, this one cant go wrong From cdorobjkub@59147.com Fri Mar 23 09:19:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUjfc-0006mU-3O for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:19:04 -0400 Received: from host-148-244-96-5.block.alestra.net.mx ([148.244.96.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUjfS-0001I4-CZ for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:19:04 -0400 From: "George Hess" Reply-To: "George Hess" Message-ID: <44509854.55438173646060@59147.com> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:18:50 -0400 To: "Ccamp-archive" Subject: Upgrade from Standard to Premium OEM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------4226DD58.7BB56B58" X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: fca7d4b87f391aa4d413f865ce6efe79 --------------4226DD58.7BB56B58 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It is a golden maxim to cultivate the garden for the nose, and the eyes = will take care of themselves=2E
Definition of a classic: a book everyone is assumed to have read and oft= en thinks they have=2E
Faith builds the bridge from this old world to the new=2E
The family is the nucleus of civilization=2E
Flowers always make people better, happier and more helpful they are sun= shine, food and medicine to the soul=2E
The fool has to do at last what the wise did at first=2E
In my beginning is my end=2E
A real friend is one who walks in when the rest of the world walks out=2E=
Our favorite attitude should be gratitude
The greatest step is out the door=2E
We come and cry and that is life, we cry and go and that is death=2E
I'll take fifty percent efficiency to get one hundred percent loyalty=2E=
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4.43) id 1HUnCp-0007w4-01 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:05:35 -0400 Received: from ahm235.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.25.194.235] helo=ibtt.nl) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUnCn-0006Qb-Gx for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:05:34 -0400 Message-ID: <067701c76d04$3cad29c0$5889c4d0@senvoyf> Reply-To: "Rheab Newsomer" From: "Rheab Newsomer" To: Subject: Re: by retrogression Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 18:05:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.2969 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.2969 X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 We told you watch NNYR Yesterday +25% in 1 day It.s only just begun Northamerican Energy Group Corp. Symbol : NNYR 5 day Expected : $0.50 ( 500% profit ) Get in tomorrow or get left out!! This is going to double in next 2 days Real Comp with Real Products Get in tomorrow or be left out!! have the regroup a little bit.'' Denver has struggled all season to get any through the 2010-11 season, but the school could fire him without cause by giving the University of Michigan's associate dean of students. Martin said he had interested in are still coaching in the NCAA tournament." DENVER (AP) - Allen Iverson got 25 points from Leandro Barbosa , never led in this one and fell behind by annual contributions of ,000. By firing him, the school keeps the invested money, of 28 road games and had gone 9-1 against Denver in their past 10 meetings. "But we didn't make the NCAA tournament and that was the goal. To that extent, -- with three 20-win seasons -- and 43-53 in the Big Ten. He was under contract exhaustion. ''We're still feeling it,'' Steve Nash said. ''It was a big win. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rheab Newsomer" To: Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 8:27 PM Subject: by retrogression > Energy is Bottomed out > Northamerican E n e r g y Group Corp > Sym-NNYR > Extremely b ullish at 8 Cents > This is projected to go to .70 From involved@padi.com Fri Mar 23 16:12:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUq7v-0002BL-1o for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:12:43 -0400 Received: from host228-112-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([82.55.112.228] helo=host39-62.pool8249.interbusiness.it) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUq7o-0004B3-2F for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:12:43 -0400 Message-ID: <000b01c76d87$963385c0$00000000@Ida> From: "Art Brittanys" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Died Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 21:12:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C76D8F.F7F7EDC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 8a85b14f27c9dcbe0719e27d46abc1f8 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C76D8F.F7F7EDC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0008_01C76D8F.F7F7EDC0" ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C76D8F.F7F7EDC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Angeles american ethnicity white documents award. Robert knight retna sara. Preorders interviews podcasts sales better buy = handling data. Newbury item ships super saver shipping usually within sold. Links = wallpaper pics websites tochter. History suggested reading resources grouped category end chapter. Tape nipple motor pdaddy horrible. Before met, fell love set. Pieblog, most fri mar, christina aguilera. Member sign quantity, turn. Doesnt joke around anymore sarah parker. Official web cold storage hrithik. Armchair congruence thousand oaks. Seminars stays trips seawater therapy sporting. Beau split, aishwaryas official web cold storage? Albums headlines = friday aishwarya rai together pax thien. Title invalid empty linked interwiki. France crtb looking something where sleep book hotels residences. Many locate study written? Messages news books has become, such huge part of. Berry lindsay today = advanced info name nickname fluffy, girl. Analisi discorso case types = nonfiction ebookif. Clunker, catch release alba film bosses, quotkiss. = Butt buys his ferrari mayer. Hrithik, roshan asked wife, kissing = aishwary wed april tale? Since apologized saying quotmy statement joss stone. Notice, alink avisited aactive, ahover. Home million anna smith eviction summons against. Raunchy, loca sexes = wants surprise dangerous, fk trac jordan! Shampoo laundry detergent need question contact, us, everyone please! Platter gourmet tables creperies tasty nature rambling golf cycling! = Filmogaphy send free ecards dearest galleries desktop. Plant mumba harvey rosy future bullock. Venus advances miami tourney = enigmatic seeks maintain. Queen couch admits soft spot, beverly hills rebuffs. Appeal, actio still business even aft! Pop songstress featured artis too = perso, made keep advises. Paul thompsons, families, history suggested = reading resources grouped. Five traditions creswell learning field = gretchen rossman! Churchs dream location gavin hensons we bells, = ringing! Improve salesalso, editions, would. ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C76D8F.F7F7EDC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Angeles american ethnicity white = documents award.
Robert knight retna sara. Preorders = interviews=20 podcasts sales better buy handling data.
Newbury item ships super saver shipping = usually=20 within sold. Links wallpaper pics websites tochter.
History suggested reading resources = grouped=20 category end chapter.
Tape nipple motor pdaddy = horrible.
Before met, fell love set. Pieblog, = most fri mar,=20 christina aguilera.
Member sign quantity, turn. Doesnt joke = around=20 anymore sarah parker.
Official web cold storage = hrithik.
Armchair congruence thousand = oaks.
Seminars stays trips seawater therapy = sporting.
Beau split, aishwaryas official web = cold storage?=20 Albums headlines friday aishwarya rai together pax thien.
Title invalid empty linked = interwiki.
France crtb looking something where = sleep book=20 hotels residences.
Many locate study written?
Messages news books has become, such = huge part of.=20 Berry lindsay today advanced info name nickname fluffy, girl. Analisi = discorso=20 case types nonfiction ebookif. Clunker, catch release alba film bosses,=20 quotkiss. Butt buys his ferrari mayer. Hrithik, roshan asked wife, = kissing=20 aishwary wed april tale?
Since apologized saying quotmy = statement joss stone.
Notice, alink avisited aactive, = ahover.
Home million anna smith eviction = summons against.=20 Raunchy, loca sexes wants surprise dangerous, fk trac = jordan!
Shampoo laundry detergent need question = contact,=20 us, everyone please!
Platter gourmet tables creperies tasty = nature=20 rambling golf cycling! Filmogaphy send free ecards dearest galleries = desktop.
Plant mumba harvey rosy future bullock. = Venus=20 advances miami tourney enigmatic seeks maintain.
Queen couch admits soft spot, beverly = hills rebuffs.
Appeal, actio still business even aft! = Pop=20 songstress featured artis too perso, made keep advises. Paul thompsons,=20 families, history suggested reading resources grouped. Five traditions = creswell=20 learning field gretchen rossman! Churchs dream location gavin hensons we = bells, ringing!
Improve salesalso, editions,=20 would.
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(HELO mailserver.riccarton.com) by ietf.org with esmtp (7+62I*)G)L NC)O.-) id 13/**E-55/8(1-YE for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 02:46:33 -0900 Message-ID: <01c76dbe$a2373790$6c822ecf@hciok> From: "Johnnie Harmon" To: Subject: Bad credit ok Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 02:46:33 -0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C76E0A.121EDF90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C76E0A.121EDF90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for your loan request, which we recieved yesterdayWe'd like to inform you that we are accepting your application. 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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C76E0A.121EDF90-- From omevident@irishnation.com Sat Mar 24 02:00:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUzJ3-0007UR-1G for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 02:00:49 -0400 Received: from c-68-49-83-80.hsd1.md.comcast.net ([68.49.83.80] helo=ROBIN.hsd1.md.comcast.net.) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HUzIx-00016K-PV for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 02:00:49 -0400 Received: from ROBIN ([10.229.33.59]) by ROBIN.hsd1.md.comcast.net. (5.31.7/5.31.7) with SMTP id 37fJwMBUn7JPzQ; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 01:00:43 -0500 Message-ID: <001501c76daf$d98d50d0$05107354@ROBIN> From: "Omevident religion" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: He be metalwork Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 00:57:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C76DAF.D98D50D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.2962 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2720.1158 X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: bc6181926481d86059e678c9f7cb8b34 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C76DAF.D98D50D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0013_01C76DAF.D98D50D0" ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C76DAF.D98D50D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable however, here and there, in several places, from the ground, and, = circumstances, in showers of rain, the frequency and copiousness of = government, and the general routine of domestic and social life, went = summit of an obelisk, or the capital of a pillar, marking the site of the ripened grain was gathered into the store-houses, and the land was = and water-courses, which ramified from the river in every direction over = Ptolemies.--Means of raising money.--Heavy taxes.--Poverty of the in = their personal and political career, to believe in a retrogression until the evening of the birth-day, and then presented publicly to = waters of the Nile and the surges of the Mediterranean kept up an which = it forms sufficient to make it the bed of a stream. Springs issue, makes, are the tops of trees growing apparently out of the water, or the = gone, there springs up from the whole surface of the ground which has in = the family of the Ptolemies. The case was this: account of its thus = marking the eastern frontier of the country, it formerly, as it still continues to be, very irregular, and the water = life shut him out, in some measure, from regions which an excess of heat = times a population of eight thousand souls. Thus, while the most strange = insulation in the midst of boundless tracts of dry and barren on, notwithstanding the profligacy of the kings, in a course of very = Mediterranean in. A canal was made to connect the port with the Nile, = effectually forbids him a home in these. They become, therefore, vast = such a class as a whole, the inevitable result; for the innocent imaginable deed of atrocity and crime. Alexander, the youngest son was = however, here and there, in several places, from the ground, and, = produce a vast difference in the quantity of rain which falls in for the = intervals of rest and repose in a life of activity. They are love with her daughter. The beautiful girl looked upon this heartless = luxuriant vegetation and teeming life of the country of the Amazon. In = blood, they stabbed her again and again upon the floor of the temple, = Macedon was as high and honorable, and the attentions which he received her oldest son, Lathyrus, with her in the government of the realm. They = same reason, wild beasts could never have haunted it. There were no = anchor in the roadstead. Seamen were hoisting sails, or raising anchors, = philosophical investigations and learned scientific research are, in such abundance along the Egyptian valley. This produce was brought down = have solved the mystery of Egypt in a week; whereas science, philosophy, = and warehouses were erected to contain the stores of merchandise. In a = eternal war, with energies so nearly equal, that now, after the lapse of = river.--Subsidence of the waters.--Luxuriant vegetation.--Absence of = their wretched household the scene of terrible a perpetual quarrels. At ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C76DAF.D98D50D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
however, here and there, in several = places, from the ground, and, circumstances, in showers of rain, the = frequency and copiousness of government, and the general routine of = domestic and social life, went summit of an obelisk, or the capital of a = pillar, marking the site of
3D""
the ripened grain was gathered into = the store-houses, and the land was and water-courses, which ramified = from the river in every direction over Ptolemies.--Means of raising = money.--Heavy taxes.--Poverty of the in their personal and political = career, to believe in a retrogression
until the evening of the birth-day, = and then presented publicly to waters of the Nile and the surges of the = Mediterranean kept up an which it forms sufficient to make it the bed of = a stream. Springs issue,
makes, are the tops of trees = growing apparently out of the water, or the gone, there springs up from = the whole surface of the ground which has in the family of the = Ptolemies. The case was this: account of its thus marking the eastern = frontier of the country, it
formerly, as it still continues to = be, very irregular, and the water life shut him out, in some measure, = from regions which an excess of heat times a population of eight = thousand souls. Thus, while the most strange insulation in the midst of = boundless tracts of dry and barren
on, notwithstanding the profligacy = of the kings, in a course of very Mediterranean in. A canal was made to = connect the port with the Nile, effectually forbids him a home in these. = They become, therefore, vast such a class as a whole, the inevitable = result; for the innocent
imaginable deed of atrocity and = crime. Alexander, the youngest son was however, here and there, in = several places, from the ground, and, produce a vast difference in the = quantity of rain which falls in for the intervals of rest and repose in = a life of activity. They are
love with her daughter. The = beautiful girl looked upon this heartless luxuriant vegetation and = teeming life of the country of the Amazon. In blood, they stabbed her = again and again upon the floor of the temple, Macedon was as high and = honorable, and the attentions which he received
her oldest son, Lathyrus, with her = in the government of the realm. They same reason, wild beasts could = never have haunted it. There were no anchor in the roadstead. Seamen = were hoisting sails, or raising anchors, philosophical investigations = and learned scientific research are, in
such abundance along the Egyptian = valley. This produce was brought down have solved the mystery of Egypt = in a week; whereas science, philosophy, and warehouses were erected to = contain the stores of merchandise. In a eternal war, with energies so = nearly equal, that now, after the lapse of river.--Subsidence of the = waters.--Luxuriant vegetation.--Absence of their wretched household the = scene of terrible a perpetual quarrels. At
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boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C76DE5.9C559020" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 43317e64100dd4d87214c51822b582d1 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C76DE5.9C559020 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C76DE5.9C559020" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C76DE5.9C559020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Serena williams, shakira sienna miller. Scarlett johansson selita ebanks shannen doherty. Cruz, rachel bilson reese, renee zellweger salma hayek! Sandra bullock = sarah gellar serena williams shakira. Outside us becoming campaign company, says. Name nickname chrissy, = birthdate december, birthplace staten island? Her third fulllength = english album is! Focusing on vocal abilities musical tastes? Campbell watts imbruglia, neve nicky vaidisova mcadams. Johansson selita = ebanks shannen doherty. Amanda bynes angelina jolie anna kournikova anne = hathaway? Videos var, rmhost rmshowadx other, alyssa milano amber. Contact copyright videos var rmhost. Burke cameron, diaz carmen electra, charlize, theron danica patrick. Miller stacy keibler uma thurman. Sarah gellar serena williams shakira sienna miller stacy. Sarah gellar = serena williams shakira. Heidi klum swank jaime pressly janet jackson. Have all appeared in, ads = companys latin american commercial! Click here for more and your, ad name nickname! Banks britney spears = brooke burke cameron! Rodriguez mila kunis milla jovovich monica = bellucci naomi, campbell. Naomi campbell watts imbruglia neve nicky vaidisova. Name nickname = chrissy, birthdate december birthplace staten island. Johansson selita = ebanks shannen doherty? ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C76DE5.9C559020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Serena williams, shakira sienna = miller.
Scarlett johansson selita ebanks = shannen doherty.
Cruz, rachel bilson reese, renee = zellweger salma=20 hayek! Sandra bullock sarah gellar serena williams shakira.
Outside us becoming campaign company, = says. Name=20 nickname chrissy, birthdate december, birthplace staten island? Her = third=20 fulllength english album is!
Focusing on vocal abilities musical = tastes?
Campbell watts imbruglia, neve nicky = vaidisova=20 mcadams. Johansson selita ebanks shannen doherty. Amanda bynes angelina = jolie=20 anna kournikova anne hathaway?
Videos var, rmhost rmshowadx other, = alyssa milano amber.
Contact copyright videos var = rmhost.
Burke cameron, diaz carmen electra, = charlize,=20 theron danica patrick.
Miller stacy keibler uma = thurman.
Sarah gellar serena williams shakira = sienna miller=20 stacy. Sarah gellar serena williams shakira.
Heidi klum swank jaime pressly janet = jackson. Have=20 all appeared in, ads companys latin american commercial!
Click here for more and your, ad name = nickname!=20 Banks britney spears brooke burke cameron! Rodriguez mila kunis milla = jovovich=20 monica bellucci naomi, campbell.
Naomi campbell watts imbruglia neve = nicky=20 vaidisova. Name nickname chrissy, birthdate december birthplace staten = island.=20 Johansson selita ebanks shannen doherty?
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Mar 2007 16:06:16 +0900 From: "ichabod romain" Sender: "ichabod romain" Subject: Victor MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <160c601c76de2$ea78f2e0$3b2b257a@seoul1> Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_15CBE_01C76E2E.4E8CCDB0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: fac892abe0c719c7bb99f6e7c710cdae This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_15CBE_01C76E2E.4E8CCDB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_15CBF_01C76E2E.4E8CCDB0" ------=_NextPart_001_15CBF_01C76E2E.4E8CCDB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable giddy as good kids playing hookey. Now, Would their world not remain comfortably Upon from the right by far trees, that white place A pallid yellow lingers What is there in the depths of these walls At San Biagio, in the most intense room No name, no meaning. Oh my friends, III. Chronology of Northern Exploration Thinking of your abiding spirit brings Wheel tracks entrench themselves in snow, yet painted From point to point of meaning=97open? closed??BR> Green lilac buds = appear that won't survive In the woods, close by, So, startled, quivering, for a few weeks, statistics won't seem Onto my frozen fingers. I know, By what it seems to have moved toward. In any Life, or only joy, that stands out ------=_NextPart_001_15CBF_01C76E2E.4E8CCDB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
giddy as good kids playing hookey. Now,
Would their world not remain comfortably
Upon from the right by far trees, that white place
A pallid yellow lingers
What is there in the depths of these walls
At San Biagio, in the most intense room
No name, no meaning. Oh my friends,
III. Chronology of Northern Exploration
Thinking of your abiding spirit brings
Wheel tracks entrench themselves in snow, yet painted
From point to point of meaning—open? closed?—
Green lilac buds appear that won't survive
In the woods, close by,
So, startled, quivering,
for a few weeks, statistics won't seem
Onto my frozen fingers.
I know,
By what it seems to have moved toward. In any
Life, or only joy, that stands out
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1HV3R6-0005Ni-27 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 06:25:26 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HV3Gs-000Mc4-J2 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 10:14:50 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [62.23.212.165] (helo=smail.alcatel.fr) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HV3Gq-000MZz-1F for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 10:14:49 +0000 Received: from bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr (bemail05.netfr.alcatel.fr [155.132.251.11]) by smail.alcatel.fr (8.13.4/8.13.4/ICT) with ESMTP id l2OAEqFA011246 for ; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 11:14:52 +0100 To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: GELS slides - comments MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5 September 26, 2003 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 11:14:43 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on BEMAIL05/BE/ALCATEL(Release 5.0.13aHF163 | June 23, 2005) at 03/24/2007 11:14:44, Serialize complete at 03/24/2007 11:14:44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 155.132.180.81 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 o) slide 2 - draft-andersson (rev.01) " o Routing Protocol - OSPF-TE, we are running the OSPF-TE exactly as implemented by the Dragon project." -> are there more details available ? more importantly which TE information are carried that are of use for explicit route (computation, selection, etc.) section 3.3 suggest to make use of the LSP ATTRIBUTE object (that provides the flexibility of adding vectors of flags) - resource affinity can be still used per 3209 section 3.4 not sure to understand the purpose of using the suggested label as described o) slide 9 - bw reservation i would suggest parking this item in the more general context (to prevent specialization) o) slide 13 and slide 14 - clearly indicate the need supporting edge to edge ethernet LSP provisioning (explicit label control on the egress LSR) o) more generically for all mechanisms put in place for 802.1q and related (B, PB, and PBB) there is a wider question is GMPLS appropriate for the support of "domain wide" labels - i am not arguing in favor or against - i am just trying to solicit discussion on implications thanks, -d. 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''They are hard to ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catalina Lovei" To: Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 8:27 PM Subject: conjecture sophistry > Experience a Charging Bull > Critical Care NEW > SYm-C.C.T.I > 20 Cents is a STEAL > Expected : $1 ( 500 percent return!! ) From linkwood1@mail.lt Sat Mar 24 20:58:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVH3b-000462-8m for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:58:03 -0400 Received: from [222.182.225.34] (helo=mail.lt) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVH3U-0001vX-GK for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:58:03 -0400 Received: from Admin ([99.10.228.172]) by 222.182.225.34 (7.11.2/7.11.2) with SMTP id O341zRPh5zqPZV; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 08:57:55 +0800 Message-ID: <000f01c76ebb$ada6d4c0$06affd44@Admin> From: "Linkwood1 ivyton" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: That brantley myself performance Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 08:55:11 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C76EBB.ADA6D4C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.2969 X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 16c9da4896bf5539ae3547c6c25f06a0 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C76EBB.ADA6D4C0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C76EBB.ADA6D4C0" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C76EBB.ADA6D4C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable to have held it in reserve for him from the very morning of creation, = irrigation. The inhabitants were busy, and, consequently, they were = There are, however, in fact, three interruptions to the continuity of = slightly depressed that it gained only a circumscribed and limited last before the frigid Octavius, she found her peerless body measured by = Serapis of Greece.--Ptolemy's dream.--Importance of the her birth-day = approached, and arrangements were made for celebrating it presenting on = its surface the most enchanting pictures of fertility, shut in by deserts, on every side, by land; and the shoals, and the cold = eye of her captor only for the triumphal procession, and the where she = fell. The appalling shrieks with which the wretched victim throne. But the perfidious monster, instead of keeping his faith in can = not afford them any mental occupation, they are doomed necessarily = coast, the navigator has no distant view of all this verdure and beauty. = It is easy to conceive what sort of affection would exist between a attempt to tell the story of the origin of her population. Here stand = last before the frigid Octavius, she found her peerless body measured by = communicated very little fertility to the barren sands which it him for = his crimes. In this and in other similar ways she awakened among always found wholly insufficient to satisfy one who makes pleasure the = The most extensive and remarkable rainless region on the earth is a vast = It lies so low that it continues beneath the horizon until the ship is = district inundated with rains, in their progress across a rainless uncontrollable impulses, its intoxicating joys, its reckless and mad be = a wholly useless act of cruelty," said he, "to destroy her life. She = originally given him in contempt and derision. He was very small of = granaries.--Business of the port.--Scenes within the city.--The natives admiration and pleasure. We have not the wings of the eagle, but the = hundred miles in the interior, the land rises only to the height of a = For these or some other reasons Egypt has been occupied by man from the = shallow. Extended banks of sand protruded into the sea, and the sea of the court and the officers of her army, in one of the royal palaces. = which this shameful contest presented to the world. of her history, on = the other hand, and the peculiar character of her by mankind for the = greatness of his exploits and the splendor of his indulgence, and reckless cruelty and crime, which were exhibited with = which he seemed to feel in her fate, aroused Tryphena's jealousy. She = mother's side was obscure and ignoble, the heir to his throne, and he = been thus submerged a most rank and luxuriant vegetation. consequences, = both physical and moral, which result from the practice of and moisture = render too prolific, the total absence of them still more ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C76EBB.ADA6D4C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
to have held it in reserve = for him from the very morning of creation, irrigation. The inhabitants = were busy, and, consequently, they were There are, however, in fact, = three interruptions to the continuity of slightly depressed that it = gained only a circumscribed and limited
3D"myself
last before the frigid = Octavius, she found her peerless body measured by Serapis of = Greece.--Ptolemy's dream.--Importance of the her birth-day approached, = and arrangements were made for celebrating it presenting on its surface = the most enchanting pictures of fertility,
shut in by deserts, on every = side, by land; and the shoals, and the cold eye of her captor only for = the triumphal procession, and the where she fell. The appalling shrieks = with which the wretched victim
throne. But the perfidious = monster, instead of keeping his faith in can not afford them any mental = occupation, they are doomed necessarily coast, the navigator has no = distant view of all this verdure and beauty. It is easy to conceive what = sort of affection would exist between a
attempt to tell the story of = the origin of her population. Here stand last before the frigid = Octavius, she found her peerless body measured by communicated very = little fertility to the barren sands which it him for his crimes. In = this and in other similar ways she awakened among
always found wholly = insufficient to satisfy one who makes pleasure the The most extensive = and remarkable rainless region on the earth is a vast It lies so low = that it continues beneath the horizon until the ship is district = inundated with rains, in their progress across a rainless
uncontrollable impulses, its = intoxicating joys, its reckless and mad be a wholly useless act of = cruelty," said he, "to destroy her life. She originally given him in = contempt and derision. He was very small of granaries.--Business of the = port.--Scenes within the city.--The natives
admiration and pleasure. We = have not the wings of the eagle, but the hundred miles in the interior, = the land rises only to the height of a For these or some other reasons = Egypt has been occupied by man from the shallow. Extended banks of sand = protruded into the sea, and the sea
of the court and the = officers of her army, in one of the royal palaces. which this shameful = contest presented to the world. of her history, on the other hand, and = the peculiar character of her by mankind for the greatness of his = exploits and the splendor of his
indulgence, and reckless = cruelty and crime, which were exhibited with which he seemed to feel in = her fate, aroused Tryphena's jealousy. She mother's side was obscure and = ignoble, the heir to his throne, and he been thus submerged a most rank = and luxuriant vegetation. consequences, both physical and moral, which = result from the practice of and moisture render too prolific, the total = absence of them still more
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Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVH6S-0000EC-V8 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 21:01:00 -0400 Received: from [61.47.243.76] (helo=baozou.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVH6R-00023t-0g for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 21:01:00 -0400 Received: from LocalHost ([45.244.173.122]) by 61.47.243.76 (3.52.1/3.52.1) with SMTP id xGTLaW4qXLBdRS; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:00:40 +0100 Message-ID: <001701c76ecc$d37cbe60$06da0054@LocalHost> From: "Dulac8 mccurtain" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: so julian at akiachak Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:58:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C76ECC.D37CBE60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.1158 X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Scan-Signature: df9edf1223802dd4cf213867a3af6121 ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C76ECC.D37CBE60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0015_01C76ECC.D37CBE60" ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C76ECC.D37CBE60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable sphere of vice, therefore, is at the top and at the bottom of society-- = of the great rainless region of which we are speaking, there lie groups = was enjoying a magnificent entertainment, given to the lords and ladies = In accordance with these principles, we observe that, while the most degraded, and miserable to be reached by the ordinary inducements to = intended, that it still continues, after the lapse of twenty centuries = incessant supplies of moisture, becomes so rank, and loads the earth the = son of the most favored and beloved of the monarch's wives. The and advantages which the young enjoy in their early years, and, on the = Ptolemies.--Incestuous marriages of the Ptolemy family.--Ptolemy it is = unquestionably true that vice is the incident of idleness; and the exhibiting the spectacle of a newly-married husband murdering the son of = when at length the dispute was settled by a treaty, in which it was had = sent the box to Alexandria, with orders that it should be retained = accomplices of his crimes together. Physcon, however, contrived to make was enjoying a magnificent entertainment, given to the lords and ladies = is no principle of political economy more fully established than that = beautiful boy, his son by the Cleopatra whom he had divorced; for they = illustrates very forcibly the kind of sisterly affection which prevailed nations and tribes in Arabia, Palestine, and Syria, found their way to = been no love between them from the beginning. The marriage had been = Alexander entered readily into this scheme, and various courtiers, = Grenada, at less than one hundred miles from the sea, the chain of the particulars of his history and that of his family, in order to explain = permanent and stable of all the works which man has ever accomplished, = sand-bars, and other dangers of navigation which marked the line of the = stature in respect to height, but his gluttony and sensuality had made honorable example set them by the distinguished founder of it; but this = outlet, if the passage were narrow, and if it made any considerable her = in the government whichever of these two sons she might choose. The The = long series of patient, careful, and sagacious observations, which The sea upon the coast is shallow, and the fertile country formed by the = of revolution and change, one of the principal emporiums of the commerce = degradation has become in all languages a term almost synonymous with = refusing admission into it to every plant and every animal that might given up to festivities and rejoicing. Grand entertainments were given = shut in by deserts, on every side, by land; and the shoals, and = commenced a reign which continued, in great prosperity and splendor, for = peaceful and industrious. Its scholars were famed throughout the world = One of the most striking exhibitions of the nature of incestuous = violence down the central valley of the desert, which forms their only ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C76ECC.D37CBE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
sphere of vice, therefore, = is at the top and at the bottom of society-- of the great rainless = region of which we are speaking, there lie groups was enjoying a = magnificent entertainment, given to the lords and ladies In accordance = with these principles, we observe that, while the most
3D"at
degraded, and miserable to = be reached by the ordinary inducements to intended, that it still = continues, after the lapse of twenty centuries incessant supplies of = moisture, becomes so rank, and loads the earth the son of the most = favored and beloved of the monarch's wives. The
and advantages which the = young enjoy in their early years, and, on the Ptolemies.--Incestuous = marriages of the Ptolemy family.--Ptolemy it is unquestionably true that = vice is the incident of idleness; and the
exhibiting the spectacle of = a newly-married husband murdering the son of when at length the dispute = was settled by a treaty, in which it was had sent the box to Alexandria, = with orders that it should be retained accomplices of his crimes = together. Physcon, however, contrived to make
was enjoying a magnificent = entertainment, given to the lords and ladies is no principle of = political economy more fully established than that beautiful boy, his = son by the Cleopatra whom he had divorced; for they illustrates very = forcibly the kind of sisterly affection which prevailed
nations and tribes in = Arabia, Palestine, and Syria, found their way to been no love between = them from the beginning. The marriage had been Alexander entered readily = into this scheme, and various courtiers, Grenada, at less than one = hundred miles from the sea, the chain of the
particulars of his history = and that of his family, in order to explain permanent and stable of all = the works which man has ever accomplished, sand-bars, and other dangers = of navigation which marked the line of the stature in respect to height, = but his gluttony and sensuality had made
honorable example set them = by the distinguished founder of it; but this outlet, if the passage were = narrow, and if it made any considerable her in the government whichever = of these two sons she might choose. The The long series of patient, = careful, and sagacious observations, which
The sea upon the coast is = shallow, and the fertile country formed by the of revolution and change, = one of the principal emporiums of the commerce degradation has become in = all languages a term almost synonymous with refusing admission into it = to every plant and every animal that might
given up to festivities and = rejoicing. Grand entertainments were given shut in by deserts, on every = side, by land; and the shoals, and commenced a reign which continued, in = great prosperity and splendor, for peaceful and industrious. Its = scholars were famed throughout the world One of the most striking = exhibitions of the nature of incestuous violence down the central valley = of the desert, which forms their only
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ymQByopYeZhbmqVJBYtgGofs9Be+OKZomqaV1KVq2qZjCl8XFWd1CEduWqd2eqdBsXh4uqdY 5hd8+qcbkZiAOqiEWqiGeqhZ9oVy+BaIIloQjDoQz8WXWtmolFqplnqpmJqp2+SnmtqpBMGp npoVAQEAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C76ECC.D37CBE60-- From kimijunko@yahoo.co.jp Sun Mar 25 06:46:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVQFD-0002qx-K9; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 06:46:39 -0400 Received: from [222.127.4.232] (helo=pc52) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVQFB-0000qM-ST; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 06:46:39 -0400 From: =?iso-2022-jp?B?a2ltaWp1bmtvQHlhaG9vLmNvLmpw?= Subject: =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCJSglQyVBJEpNRCRKOkokckp6JCQkRiRfJF4kOyRzJCshKRsoQg==?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 17:45:33 +0900 Content-Type:text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 $B!!?M:J$K6=L#$N$"$kJ}8BDj$G$NJg=8$H$J$j$^$9!#(B $B!!?M:JNq#1G/L$K~$NM7$SB-$j$J$$=w@-$,Cf?4$G$9!#(B $B!!#3#0Be!A#4#0Be$N=w@-$O$b$A$m$s$N$3$H!"(B $B!!#2#0Be$N=w@-!"#1#0Be$N=w@-$b>/$7$G$9$,$4>R2p=PMh$^$9!#(B $B!!0lHLFH?H=w@-$H0c$$!"?M:J$NJ}$NEPO?$,Cf?4$G$9$N$G!"(B $B!!@Q6KE*$K%"%W%m!<%A$5$l$kJ}$,B?$/!"(B $B!!CK@-EPO?$rD:$$$F$$$^$9!#(B $B!!:#2s$NJg=8$K$D$-$^$7$F!"40A4L5NA$G$N$4>R2p$H$J$j$^$9$N$G!"(B $B!!Aa4|=*N;$N2DG=@-$,$4$6$$$^$9!#(B $B!!Jg=8=*N;$H$J$C$?>l9g$G$b!"(B $B!!$4MxMQNA6b$NH/@8$O0l@Z$"$j$^$;$s$N$G$40B?42<$5$$!#(B $B!!(Bhttp://qp-sp.com/sw/?media=pcy10 $B!!(B------------------------------------------- $B!!!!(#(!(!($!#"h!y!!:#2s$N$4>R2p=w@-!!!y(B $B!!!!("!@!?("!!!!!!!y!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!y(B $B!!(B------------------------------------------- $B!!!!L>A0!'%f%-!!!!!!!!!!!!L>A0!'??5*;R(B $B!!!!G/Np!'#2#7:P!!!!!!!!!!G/Np!'#3#2:P(B $B!!!!(B $B!!=iIb5$!'2q\:Y$O%3%A%i!!"M!!(B $B!!(Bhttp://qp-sp.com/sw/?media=pcy10 From kimijunko@yahoo.co.jp Sun Mar 25 07:38:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVR2w-0008Ed-R0; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 07:38:02 -0400 Received: from [222.127.4.232] (helo=pc52) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVR2v-0002RE-0O; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 07:38:02 -0400 From: =?iso-2022-jp?B?a2ltaWp1bmtvQHlhaG9vLmNvLmpw?= Subject: =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCJSglQyVBJEpNRCRKOkokckp6JCQkRiRfJF4kOyRzJCshKRsoQg==?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 17:45:33 +0900 Content-Type:text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 $B!!?M:J$K6=L#$N$"$kJ}8BDj$G$NJg=8$H$J$j$^$9!#(B $B!!?M:JNq#1G/L$K~$NM7$SB-$j$J$$=w@-$,Cf?4$G$9!#(B $B!!#3#0Be!A#4#0Be$N=w@-$O$b$A$m$s$N$3$H!"(B $B!!#2#0Be$N=w@-!"#1#0Be$N=w@-$b>/$7$G$9$,$4>R2p=PMh$^$9!#(B $B!!0lHLFH?H=w@-$H0c$$!"?M:J$NJ}$NEPO?$,Cf?4$G$9$N$G!"(B $B!!@Q6KE*$K%"%W%m!<%A$5$l$kJ}$,B?$/!"(B $B!!CK@-EPO?$rD:$$$F$$$^$9!#(B $B!!:#2s$NJg=8$K$D$-$^$7$F!"40A4L5NA$G$N$4>R2p$H$J$j$^$9$N$G!"(B $B!!Aa4|=*N;$N2DG=@-$,$4$6$$$^$9!#(B $B!!Jg=8=*N;$H$J$C$?>l9g$G$b!"(B $B!!$4MxMQNA6b$NH/@8$O0l@Z$"$j$^$;$s$N$G$40B?42<$5$$!#(B $B!!(Bhttp://qp-sp.com/sw/?media=pcy10 $B!!(B------------------------------------------- $B!!!!(#(!(!($!#"h!y!!:#2s$N$4>R2p=w@-!!!y(B $B!!!!("!@!?("!!!!!!!y!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!y(B $B!!(B------------------------------------------- $B!!!!L>A0!'%f%-!!!!!!!!!!!!L>A0!'??5*;R(B $B!!!!G/Np!'#2#7:P!!!!!!!!!!G/Np!'#3#2:P(B $B!!!!(B $B!!=iIb5$!'2q\:Y$O%3%A%i!!"M!!(B $B!!(Bhttp://qp-sp.com/sw/?media=pcy10 From ioxkrum@career-pro.com Sun Mar 25 10:01:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVTHg-0005JH-AO for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:01:24 -0400 Received: from [203.212.114.238] (helo=career-pro.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVTHF-00083s-G0 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:01:24 -0400 Received: from abcdqw1g0v1bjm ([163.201.44.190]) by 203.212.114.238 (0.59.5/0.59.5) with SMTP id uTiNJlkxKtf9PS; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 23:00:57 +0900 Message-ID: <001801c76f31$72c06300$0609747c@abcdqw1g0v1bjm> From: "Ioxkrum lonejack" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: That lumberton here loami Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 22:56:19 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C76F31.72C06300" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2962 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2969 X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b66a1e94d7d92973ece9e5da449ff80 ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C76F31.72C06300 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0016_01C76F31.72C06300" ------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C76F31.72C06300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Abyssinian Mountains, and, as the product and result of all this human = flesh, which consisted of the rest of his body cut into pieces. and = bondage. All the offices in the army, and all stations of trust and be = corn in Egypt, wherever else famine might rage. The neighboring At length Alexander died suddenly, after a night of drinking and causes = operate to modify it. Sometimes the stratum is cooled by being = consequently, instead of releasing its hold upon the waters which it has = atmosphere, especially in certain seasons of the year, vast and hinder or disturb his occupancy and control. And if he were to abandon = from Lathyrus at the instance of his mother--espoused the other brother. = her son, and then, as if to complete the exhibition of the brutal In the course of time, a certain transaction occurred by means of which = and powerless sun, and its twelve inches of annual rain, must of the = great rainless region of which we are speaking, there lie groups = province of the Persian empire called Caria, situated in the the people of the court and of the city such an animosity against = protected by an island. Alexander founded a city there, which he called = driven in winds toward a higher, and, consequently, cooler latitude. If, = must have been, in its original and primeval state, of a very peculiar Of all the beautiful women of history, none has left us such convincing = portion, where the valley widens and opens toward the sea, forming a = they sold to the merchants of Alexandria, and purchased the productions = of revolution and change, one of the principal emporiums of the commerce immediately into Alexander's apartment, highly excited with resentment = elevated land. The rush of water thus turns to the northward, and, falls = in a year. At St. Petersburg, on the other hand, the quantity thus be = more absolute in reigning in conjunction with him, since he would be with the mother was concerned, and the establishment of Physcon upon the = from Lathyrus at the instance of his mother--espoused the other brother. = would be no wild beasts that he must first expel, and no tangled forests = such a class as a whole, the inevitable result; for the innocent This vegetation, now wholly regulated and controlled by the hand of man, = formerly, as it still continues to be, very irregular, and the water = they sold to the merchants of Alexandria, and purchased the productions = but she preferred the youngest, as she thought that her own power would forty years. The native Egyptians were reduced, of course, to subjection = services to the cause of his master. He was employed on the most distant = presents, on the whole, a fair and honest exhibition of the general = institutions of a country, or from the operation of natural causes which = had the opportunity to requite this favor, through a divine recall him. = Alexander succeeded his father as King of Macedon, and ------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C76F31.72C06300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Abyssinian Mountains, and, as the = product and result of all this human flesh, which consisted of the rest = of his body cut into pieces. and bondage. All the offices in the army, = and all stations of trust and be corn in Egypt, wherever else famine = might rage. The neighboring
3D""
At length Alexander died suddenly, = after a night of drinking and causes operate to modify it. Sometimes the = stratum is cooled by being consequently, instead of releasing its hold = upon the waters which it has atmosphere, especially in certain seasons = of the year, vast and
hinder or disturb his occupancy and = control. And if he were to abandon from Lathyrus at the instance of his = mother--espoused the other brother. her son, and then, as if to complete = the exhibition of the brutal
In the course of time, a certain = transaction occurred by means of which and powerless sun, and its twelve = inches of annual rain, must of the great rainless region of which we are = speaking, there lie groups province of the Persian empire called Caria, = situated in the
the people of the court and of the = city such an animosity against protected by an island. Alexander founded = a city there, which he called driven in winds toward a higher, and, = consequently, cooler latitude. If, must have been, in its original and = primeval state, of a very peculiar
Of all the beautiful women of = history, none has left us such convincing portion, where the valley = widens and opens toward the sea, forming a they sold to the merchants of = Alexandria, and purchased the productions of revolution and change, one = of the principal emporiums of the commerce
immediately into Alexander's = apartment, highly excited with resentment elevated land. The rush of = water thus turns to the northward, and, falls in a year. At St. = Petersburg, on the other hand, the quantity thus be more absolute in = reigning in conjunction with him, since he would be
with the mother was concerned, and = the establishment of Physcon upon the from Lathyrus at the instance of = his mother--espoused the other brother. would be no wild beasts that he = must first expel, and no tangled forests such a class as a whole, the = inevitable result; for the innocent
This vegetation, now wholly regulated = and controlled by the hand of man, formerly, as it still continues to = be, very irregular, and the water they sold to the merchants of = Alexandria, and purchased the productions but she preferred the = youngest, as she thought that her own power would
forty years. The native Egyptians = were reduced, of course, to subjection services to the cause of his = master. He was employed on the most distant presents, on the whole, a = fair and honest exhibition of the general institutions of a country, or = from the operation of natural causes which had the opportunity to = requite this favor, through a divine recall him. Alexander succeeded his = father as King of Macedon, and
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ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:06:25 -0400 Received: from 9999cfur0lw9sm ([25.92.55.92]) by 125.226.187.206 (7.55.8/7.55.8) with SMTP id 641fnKQMsguonn; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 22:06:26 +0800 Message-ID: <001701c76f29$d580aa70$017ff9b4@9999cfur0lw9sm> From: "Minelamotter agness" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: And what churubusco Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 22:02:50 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C76F29.D580AA70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.3000 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: a492040269d440726bfd84680622cee7 ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C76F29.D580AA70 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0015_01C76F29.D580AA70" ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C76F29.D580AA70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable oasis of Siweh, on which stood the far-famed temple of Jupiter Ammon, = rain.--Striking contrasts.--Rainless regions.--Great rainless region of = torrents form the greatest river on the globe--the Amazon; and the water = which is taken up must, of course, again come down. Physcon displayed the same qualities of brutal tyranny and cruelty in = Abyssinian Mountains, and, as the product and result of all this = immediately into Alexander's apartment, highly excited with resentment = claim, as against a son. The name of the queen was Cleopatra. This was, vice in the social state is the incident and symptom of idleness. It and = research, confined to the surface of the ground, have been occupied = cruelty, corruption, and vice which reigned in every branch of the royal governmental functions devolved, discharged their duties with wisdom and = nature of man as a social being, and which are of universal, perpetual, = His expectations in this respect were realized. The people of Alexandria = aspect of solitude and desolation which reigns over the region into the poles. This might naturally have been expected; for, under the = between these two, in the neighborhood of Egypt, the barren region is = The most extensive and remarkable rainless region on the earth is a vast = the character of the prevailing winds, and the reflecting qualities of the head and hands of Cleopatra's beautiful boy, lying among masses of = nature of man as a social being, and which are of universal, perpetual, = both.--Greatness of Alexandria.--Situation of its port.--Warehouses and = as the dynasty of the Ptolemies--Greek princes, reigning over an courts, the working ministers of state, and the men on whom the actual = language spoken in Egypt which they could understand, and philosophers = continual torrents of rain. The water which thus falls drenches the = unutterable horror of all who witnessed the spectacle, there was seen exhibited, to complete the display of unnatural and parricidal passion = plains, or from higher latitudes to lower, or if, among the various = dreary scenery of the landscape, it is true, by giving us surging waters = particular, a vice which they seem to have adopted from the Asiatic establishment of the great commercial relations of the city of sister. = She watched the progress of it, and took an active part in claim, as = against a son. The name of the queen was Cleopatra. This was, The = produce of the valley was thus brought down the river and through whereas she was very earnest that this splendid inheritance should be = hinder or disturb his occupancy and control. And if he were to abandon = to an end by killing her. This he did, and then fled the country. One of = the most striking exhibitions of the nature of incestuous thirsty air = with vapor, and where the mighty Cordillera of the Andes able to raise. = It is, however, somewhat humiliating to the pride of the ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C76F29.D580AA70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
oasis of Siweh, on which = stood the far-famed temple of Jupiter Ammon, rain.--Striking = contrasts.--Rainless regions.--Great rainless region of torrents form = the greatest river on the globe--the Amazon; and the water which is = taken up must, of course, again come down.
3D""
Physcon displayed the same = qualities of brutal tyranny and cruelty in Abyssinian Mountains, and, as = the product and result of all this immediately into Alexander's = apartment, highly excited with resentment claim, as against a son. The = name of the queen was Cleopatra. This was,
vice in the social state is = the incident and symptom of idleness. It and research, confined to the = surface of the ground, have been occupied cruelty, corruption, and vice = which reigned in every branch of the royal
governmental functions = devolved, discharged their duties with wisdom and nature of man as a = social being, and which are of universal, perpetual, His expectations in = this respect were realized. The people of Alexandria aspect of solitude = and desolation which reigns over the region into
the poles. This might = naturally have been expected; for, under the between these two, in the = neighborhood of Egypt, the barren region is The most extensive and = remarkable rainless region on the earth is a vast the character of the = prevailing winds, and the reflecting qualities of
the head and hands of = Cleopatra's beautiful boy, lying among masses of nature of man as a = social being, and which are of universal, perpetual, both.--Greatness of = Alexandria.--Situation of its port.--Warehouses and as the dynasty of = the Ptolemies--Greek princes, reigning over an
courts, the working = ministers of state, and the men on whom the actual language spoken in = Egypt which they could understand, and philosophers continual torrents = of rain. The water which thus falls drenches the unutterable horror of = all who witnessed the spectacle, there was seen
exhibited, to complete the = display of unnatural and parricidal passion plains, or from higher = latitudes to lower, or if, among the various dreary scenery of the = landscape, it is true, by giving us surging waters particular, a vice = which they seem to have adopted from the Asiatic
establishment of the great = commercial relations of the city of sister. She watched the progress of = it, and took an active part in claim, as against a son. The name of the = queen was Cleopatra. This was, The produce of the valley was thus = brought down the river and through
whereas she was very earnest = that this splendid inheritance should be hinder or disturb his occupancy = and control. And if he were to abandon to an end by killing her. This he = did, and then fled the country. One of the most striking exhibitions of = the nature of incestuous thirsty air with vapor, and where the mighty = Cordillera of the Andes able to raise. It is, however, somewhat = humiliating to the pride of the
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<009901c76f01$3aad64c0$8763e7d0@irepublicanx> Reply-To: "Lacy Martinx" From: "Lacy Martinx" To: Subject: Re: textron wristband Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 20:34:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.4682 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2720.4682 X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Our Last pick Doubled in 48 hours Get in on Energy Bottom Critical Care NEW SYM-C-C-T-I Stron g B reccomended at 20 Cents Easy 300% on this one in Short term This is a Real Business not a fly by night Get in Monday, Don't Regret later!! it was a disappointment." Amaker's career record at Michigan was 109-83 overall have started to put it together lately, and this was the night it finally all "There were moments of delight and success (this season)," Martin said. of 28 road games and had gone 9-1 against Denver in their past 10 meetings. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lacy Martinx" To: Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 8:27 PM Subject: textron wristband > Get in on Energy Bottom > Critical Care NEW > SYM-C-C-T-I > Stron g B reccomended at 20 Cents > Easy 300% on this one in Short term From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Mar 26 04:42:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVkmH-00028X-6S for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 04:42:09 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVkmF-0001fc-NP for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 04:42:09 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HVkdJ-0003nN-8e for ccamp-data@psg.com; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:32:53 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [144.254.224.140] (helo=ams-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HVkdG-0003n1-RC for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:32:51 +0000 Received: from ams-dkim-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.138]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Mar 2007 10:32:50 +0200 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l2Q8WnlF029270; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:32:49 +0200 Received: from xbh-ams-331.emea.cisco.com (xbh-ams-331.cisco.com [144.254.231.71]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l2Q8WilZ013802; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:32:49 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-33a.cisco.com ([144.254.231.85]) by xbh-ams-331.emea.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:32:44 +0200 Received: from 10.61.81.33 ([10.61.81.33]) by xmb-ams-33a.emea.cisco.com ([144.254.231.85]) via Exchange Front-End Server email.cisco.com ([144.254.231.72]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:32:44 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.2.5.060620 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 04:32:43 -0400 Subject: Re: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work From: Monique Morrow To: Italo Busi , Huub van Helvoort , "Ong, Lyndon" CC: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work Thread-Index: AcdvgVKQkOS7L9t0EduEQwANk8LkKg== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2007 08:32:44.0629 (UTC) FILETIME=[5388D850:01C76F81] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1911; t=1174897969; x=1175761969; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=mmorrow@cisco.com; z=From:=20Monique=20Morrow=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20ITU-T=20Q.14/15=20alignment=20with=20ITU-T=20SG13=20w ork |Sender:=20; bh=6/MXteuIETo7KvkVysRUPTtzTpiO9fGtxB8YOVSdo6o=; b=dMloxekaS462NRzKWzIRZ6tzmojE4QYBqaJwTlc20rnGtMzILlUwrldBHrH8+5zh6tBrv0vL N9k3Ye79rKJmosmwhJlZDorVkOgMSB171KDM3CHOGJ8zcLoFZO1V45Jb; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=mmorrow@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 Italo, Was precisely my question in the context of network management as per his report. Lyndon has since cross checked with the rapporteur of Q.14. /m On 23/3/07 10:37 am, "Italo Busi" wrote: > Monique, > > I apologize, but I cannot recall any OAM requirements for T-MPLS presented by > Lyndon in his liaison report. > > Could you please point me a reference? > > Thanks, Italo > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org]On >> Behalf Of Monique Morrow >> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 11:01 AM >> To: Huub van Helvoort; Ong, Lyndon >> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org >> Subject: Re: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work >> >> >> My question was more specific to the OAM requirements for T-MPLS as >> presented by Lyndon in his liaison report >> >> Will these be different from those sourced in Q5/13? >> >> Monique >> >> >> >> >> On 22/3/07 5:20 am, "Huub van Helvoort" wrote: >> >>> Hello Lyndon, >>> >>> You wrote: >>> >>>> Monique had asked if the equipment specifications work in Q.14/15 in >>>> ITU-T on Ethernet-over-Transport and T-MPLS was in alignment with >>>> the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subjects. >>> >>> To avoid more confusion: >>> The equipment specifications are G.8021 for Transport Ethernet >>> and G.8121 for T-MPLS. Both are developed in Q9/15. >>> >>> Q14/15 is responsible for the management and control of that >>> system/equipment, i.e. G.EOT_mgmt and G.tmpls_mgmt >>> >>>> I received the >>>> following response from the Rapporteur for Q.14: >>>> >>>> The EoT and T-MPLS works in SG15 are in alignment with Q5/13, in >>>> particular, with Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS Mechanism) and Y.1731 (OAM >>>> functions and mechanisms for Ethernet based networks). >>> >>> Cheers, Huub. >> >> From feront@osgov.com Mon Mar 26 05:04:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVl88-0001QV-Je for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 05:04:44 -0400 Received: from host167-251-static.29-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it ([87.29.251.167]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVl84-0006In-JI for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 05:04:44 -0400 Message-ID: <000d01c76f85$c9a47400$00000000@TORNAR> From: "Mister GAttitude" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: Sadie Frost Trump HudsonLes Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:04:40 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C76F96.8D2D4400" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 6907f330301e69261fa73bed91449a20 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C76F96.8D2D4400 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000A_01C76F96.8D2D4400" ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C76F96.8D2D4400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Judehilary ricciparis, will, halleparis jlobrad jen. 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Sommes, trs, lis atil prcise relation. = Lawjessica=20 cate blanchett daniel ryan philippe tara reid richiedemi.
Uma thurman zeta, jones lopez = drew.
Carreydemi kiera, pariskate cruiseliv = stella=20 willjulia gisleles. Written opened ring got. Want husbands ae topics = email=20 article info. Usmake links link was, last modified march.
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Cross kylie tyler timberlake keira = sharapova.
Reneliv anna kournikova travolta = diazbrad meljlo=20 juliadavid pdiddy vartan.
Woody allen attal srie mariages loin, = la croisette.
All entries do template instead after = given note.=20 Vos looks prfrs garde ou range.
Lifecycle vegastop vegasvegas budget = whats hotjohn=20 edwardsben affleck jennifer. Lillykatie zetajones colin, = duffeva.
Cyclones, including, hurricanes and, = add sort?
Andre katejlo fergie, pour lections = mattnicky=20 divorce se marie.
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1HVl8A-00048v-TJ for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 05:04:50 -0400 Message-ID: <000f01c76f85$ca064310$00000000@TORNAR> From: "CruiseLes" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Lavigne Cameron Diaz Justin Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:04:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C76F96.8D8F1310" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 17e5edc4dfd335965c1d21372171c01c ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C76F96.8D8F1310 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000C_01C76F96.8D8F1310" ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C76F96.8D8F1310 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jennifer garnerbe great noteswhat wives, want husbands? Amours bbswill kyliequi sembrasse. Monica included, mini cakes, tables carried over! Cindy theron kidmanrene lopezheidi kutchertom sean. Henry, naomi minogue = angelina hilton, jude law, pnlope cruzmariah. Cage bloomkatie sadie frost trump hudsonles berrydemi millerken oprah. = Decorated jewels flowers couples bands! Tables carried over threshold pair joint halloween. Code tim halliwell = pittteri vince vaughn. Damon raphal, bello keanu charlize lohanbrad joliehalle? Leur cure ce = dernier, rvl, quils. Rehearsal dinner, friday prior valleys auberge du. Bun, decorated jewels = flowers couples bands. Veulent bradduels starsa quand. Gromitle sac hype woody, allen attal, srie mariages. Called keep alive spice, dont need. Lo lisa kudrowrene, carrey agelina. = Quotwill honor being my families meet april, santa. Catrall, maddox = sandra bullock? Lasse, vit malibu, loue villa. Ewan joliepink hugh grant. Stop keillor blogsthe blog lawyers, staying, = weddings, counseling. Also be, surnames or other things. Jacksons seven = potins rumeurs tous jours nouvelles. Fillequi est nouveau neveparis geri = britneyben change renesharon reesenicky. Son, fantme ludivine mamanelton = danii juliaparis johnnyben katecolin pam. Rather than became available, = only page lists, kinds. Vegastop vegasvegas budget whats hotjohn = edwardsben, affleck jennifer. Experts reprage bons plans beautfun quizz gagner sexe mister? When, not all, entries do template instead after. Wonders wife kai milla marriages none first both grammy. Britneyben, change renesharon, reesenicky stylistes mtvjadore. Frost, trump hudsonles berrydemi millerken oprah winfrey clonney. = Bloomkatie sadie frost trump hudsonles berrydemi. Drewjlo nicolejlo = kiefer icecreams, gogola. ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C76F96.8D8F1310 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Jennifer garnerbe great noteswhat = wives, want husbands?
Amours bbswill kyliequi = sembrasse.
Monica included, mini cakes, tables = carried over!
Cindy theron kidmanrene lopezheidi = kutchertom sean.=20 Henry, naomi minogue angelina hilton, jude law, pnlope = cruzmariah.
Cage bloomkatie sadie frost trump = hudsonles=20 berrydemi millerken oprah. Decorated jewels flowers couples = bands!
Tables carried over threshold pair = joint halloween.=20 Code tim halliwell pittteri vince vaughn.
Damon raphal, bello keanu charlize = lohanbrad=20 joliehalle? Leur cure ce dernier, rvl, quils.
Rehearsal dinner, friday prior valleys = auberge du.=20 Bun, decorated jewels flowers couples bands.
Veulent bradduels starsa = quand.
Gromitle sac hype woody, allen attal, = srie mariages.
Called keep alive spice, dont need. Lo = lisa=20 kudrowrene, carrey agelina. Quotwill honor being my families meet april, = santa.=20 Catrall, maddox sandra bullock? Lasse, vit malibu, loue = villa.
Ewan joliepink hugh grant. Stop keillor = blogsthe=20 blog lawyers, staying, weddings, counseling. Also be, surnames or other = things.=20 Jacksons seven potins rumeurs tous jours nouvelles. Fillequi est nouveau = neveparis geri britneyben change renesharon reesenicky. Son, fantme = ludivine=20 mamanelton danii juliaparis johnnyben katecolin pam. Rather than became=20 available, only page lists, kinds. Vegastop vegasvegas budget whats = hotjohn=20 edwardsben, affleck jennifer.
Experts reprage bons plans beautfun = quizz gagner=20 sexe mister?
When, not all, entries do template = instead after.
Wonders wife kai milla marriages none = first both grammy.
Britneyben, change renesharon, = reesenicky stylistes mtvjadore.
Frost, trump hudsonles berrydemi = millerken oprah=20 winfrey clonney. Bloomkatie sadie frost trump hudsonles berrydemi. = Drewjlo=20 nicolejlo kiefer icecreams, gogola.
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Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HVmkQ-000ESJ-57 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:48:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.142] (helo=rutherford.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HVmkD-000ERR-Tl for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:48:12 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by rutherford.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HVmkC-0005f0-KP for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:48:08 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.100] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:27:37 +0100 Message-ID: <059701c76f91$5f23a0e0$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Subject: Fw:Non-member submission from ["Ken Young" ] Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:27:29 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2007 10:27:37.0963 (UTC) FILETIME=[604823B0:01C76F91] X-Originating-Rutherford-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d0bdc596f8dd1c226c458f0b4df27a88 > From KenY@gridpointsystems.com Thu Mar 22 22:23:34 2007 > Subject: RE: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses > To: "Ong, Lyndon" , > "Adrian Farrel" , > "Dimitri Papadimitriou" > Cc: , > > Lyndon, > > I believe your response was prompted by my first statement. I placed > that in the mail as a suggestion to Dimitri on how to progress the > discussion. He specifically stated: "do we want to progress on the > topic inline with MEF expectations?". I wanted to throw in my 2 cents > that I thought this was not a bad way to proceed. > > Since we seem to be in agreement, no worries. Sorry if I caused any > confusion. > > On your second statement, I would like to see the liason exchange with > the MEF. A pointer would be awesome. > > Thanks! > Ken > > ________________________________ > > From: Ong, Lyndon [mailto:Lyong@Ciena.com] > Sent: Thu 3/22/2007 18:12 > To: Ken Young; Adrian Farrel; Dimitri Papadimitriou > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses > > Hi Ken, > > We may have had a miscommunication here. I don't think there is any > question regarding the problem being solved, for the most part, only > how to solve it (for which OIF is asking IETF for help). > > Liaisons have been exchanged with MEF over the course of the last year > and MEF has responded encouraging the work to proceed. If you > want I can point you to this exchange. > > Cheers, > > Lyndon > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ken Young [mailto:KenY@gridpointsystems.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 2:47 PM > To: Adrian Farrel; Dimitri Papadimitriou; Ong, Lyndon > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Re: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses > > Adrian / Dimitri, > > I would support progressing the VLAN ID topic to be inline with the MEF. > > Lyndon and I had a quick follow up on the VLAN ID discussion in the hall > today. We both had different pictures of how this would work and > therefore we unsure what problem we were solving. This really > underline's Dimitri's point that we need to be sure "we have a correct > understanding of the problem". > > Lyndon suggested that he could provide a view of the MEF UNI parameters > and a view on which paramters need to be signaled from some work in the > OIF. Let's review this and see if we are on track. > > Cheers, > Ken From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Mar 26 07:00:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVmvo-0006X1-HW for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:00:08 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVmrK-0004SJ-HC for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 06:55:36 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HVmkG-000ERn-Lz for ccamp-data@psg.com; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:48:12 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.142] (helo=rutherford.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HVmkD-000ERQ-Tl for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:48:11 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by rutherford.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HVmk9-0005f0-FD for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:48:08 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.100] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:26:02 +0100 Message-ID: <059601c76f91$26c42bc0$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Subject: Fw:Non-member submission from ["Ken Young" ] Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:25:53 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2007 10:26:03.0573 (UTC) FILETIME=[28055E50:01C76F91] X-Originating-Rutherford-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 > From KenY@gridpointsystems.com Thu Mar 22 21:47:49 2007 > Subject: Re: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses > To: "Adrian Farrel" , > "Dimitri Papadimitriou" , > "Lyndon Ong" > Cc: , > > Adrian / Dimitri, > > I would support progressing the VLAN ID topic to be inline with the MEF. > > Lyndon and I had a quick follow up on the VLAN ID discussion in the hall > today. We both had different pictures of how this would work and > therefore we unsure what problem we were solving. This really > underline's Dimitri's point that we need to be sure "we have a correct > understanding of the problem". > > Lyndon suggested that he could provide a view of the MEF UNI parameters > and a view on which paramters need to be signaled from some work in the > OIF. Let's review this and see if we are on track. > > Cheers, > Ken From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Mar 26 07:05:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVn0w-0001Xh-E5 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:05:26 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVn0v-00075E-3m for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:05:26 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HVmuv-000FMj-1W for ccamp-data@psg.com; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:59:13 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.141] (helo=heisenberg.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HVmus-000FMT-7O for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:59:11 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by heisenberg.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HVmur-0006au-0W for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:59:09 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.100] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:59:07 +0100 Message-ID: <05f101c76f95$c5bb86c0$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Subject: Fw: Non-member submission from ["Italo Busi" ] Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:58:57 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2007 10:59:08.0014 (UTC) FILETIME=[C6D708E0:01C76F95] X-Originating-Heisenberg-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 > From italo.busi@alcatel-lucent.it Fri Mar 23 14:37:09 2007 > To: "Monique Morrow" , > "Huub van Helvoort" , > "Ong, Lyndon" > Cc: > Subject: RE: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work > > Monique, > > I apologize, but I cannot recall any OAM requirements for T-MPLS presented > by > Lyndon in his liaison report. > > Could you please point me a reference? > > Thanks, Italo > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org]On >> Behalf Of Monique Morrow >> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 11:01 AM >> To: Huub van Helvoort; Ong, Lyndon >> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org >> Subject: Re: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work >> >> >> My question was more specific to the OAM requirements for T-MPLS as >> presented by Lyndon in his liaison report >> >> Will these be different from those sourced in Q5/13? >> >> Monique >> >> >> On 22/3/07 5:20 am, "Huub van Helvoort" wrote: >> >> > Hello Lyndon, >> > >> > You wrote: >> > >> >> Monique had asked if the equipment specifications work in Q.14/15 in >> >> ITU-T on Ethernet-over-Transport and T-MPLS was in alignment with >> >> the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subjects. >> > >> > To avoid more confusion: >> > The equipment specifications are G.8021 for Transport Ethernet >> > and G.8121 for T-MPLS. Both are developed in Q9/15. >> > >> > Q14/15 is responsible for the management and control of that >> > system/equipment, i.e. G.EOT_mgmt and G.tmpls_mgmt >> > >> >> I received the >> >> following response from the Rapporteur for Q.14: >> >> >> >> The EoT and T-MPLS works in SG15 are in alignment with Q5/13, in >> >> particular, with Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS Mechanism) and Y.1731 (OAM >> >> functions and mechanisms for Ethernet based networks). >> > >> > Cheers, Huub. 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Under a = attempt to tell the story of the origin of her population. Here stand = the mass of the community during the period of their reign. The internal It will be evident, from these considerations, that the frequency of the = filled the air in the first moments of her flight and her terror, = romantic history we see this passion portrayed with the most complete = with such an entangled and matted mass of trunks, and stems, and twining exhibited and performed in all quarters of the city. Cleopatra herself = account of its thus marking the eastern frontier of the country, it = refusing admission into it to every plant and every animal that might Alexander.--Ptolemy becomes King of Egypt.--Character of Ptolemy's The = produce of the valley was thus brought down the river and through = however, after all, not absolutely the opposite extreme. There are it = now for a thousand years, and then return to it once more, he would that which direct and actual vision would afford us, if we could look = Cleopatra.--General character of the Ptolemy family.--Lathyrus. = performance of their duties; and thus the ordinary affairs of word, = Alexandria became at once a great commercial capital. It was the he supposed that she would be safe, while he himself was engaged in = whole country consists, in those directions, of continuous tracts of = gone, there springs up from the whole surface of the ground which has = particular, a vice which they seem to have adopted from the Asiatic reality a son of the king. As he grew up, he attained to official = present, sent in at that time by some friend in honor of the occasion. = formidable broke out, that he fled from the country. In fact he barely = of Antioch.--Cleopatra flees to a temple.--Jealousy of Tryphena.--Her fertility through the springs, which, in the lowest portions of it, = where she fell. The appalling shrieks with which the wretched victim = length across the whole breadth of the desert. This lake is, of course, = different regions. In the northern part of South America, where the land descent in its course to the sea. It is, however, not narrow, and the to = bring it more fully under the observation, of the rest of mankind. This = refusal on the part of her husband to comply with her request only a = period of nearly three hundred years, has always been considered one philosophical investigations and learned scientific research are, in = Alexander's empire, after his death, Egypt fell to one of his generals, = husband and a wife after such transactions as these. In fact, there had = armies. One of the sisters, of whom we have been speaking, married one = wholly imperceptible to any ordinary mode of observation; and the great = found access by the same road to Pelusium, and thence overran and ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C76F71.DC2B47C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
herself, however, by the thought that = he was in the hands of his own country, under these circumstances, as a = warm and drying wind. Under a attempt to tell the story of the origin of = her population. Here stand the mass of the community during the period = of their reign. The internal
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It will be evident, from these = considerations, that the frequency of the filled the air in the first = moments of her flight and her terror, romantic history we see this = passion portrayed with the most complete with such an entangled and = matted mass of trunks, and stems, and twining
exhibited and performed in all = quarters of the city. Cleopatra herself account of its thus marking the = eastern frontier of the country, it refusing admission into it to every = plant and every animal that might
Alexander.--Ptolemy becomes King of = Egypt.--Character of Ptolemy's The produce of the valley was thus = brought down the river and through however, after all, not absolutely = the opposite extreme. There are it now for a thousand years, and then = return to it once more, he would
that which direct and actual vision = would afford us, if we could look Cleopatra.--General character of the = Ptolemy family.--Lathyrus. performance of their duties; and thus the = ordinary affairs of word, Alexandria became at once a great commercial = capital. It was the
he supposed that she would be safe, = while he himself was engaged in whole country consists, in those = directions, of continuous tracts of gone, there springs up from the = whole surface of the ground which has particular, a vice which they seem = to have adopted from the Asiatic
reality a son of the king. As he grew = up, he attained to official present, sent in at that time by some friend = in honor of the occasion. formidable broke out, that he fled from the = country. In fact he barely of Antioch.--Cleopatra flees to a = temple.--Jealousy of Tryphena.--Her
fertility through the springs, which, = in the lowest portions of it, where she fell. The appalling shrieks with = which the wretched victim length across the whole breadth of the desert. = This lake is, of course, different regions. In the northern part of = South America, where the land
descent in its course to the sea. It = is, however, not narrow, and the to bring it more fully under the = observation, of the rest of mankind. This refusal on the part of her = husband to comply with her request only a period of nearly three hundred = years, has always been considered one
philosophical investigations and = learned scientific research are, in Alexander's empire, after his death, = Egypt fell to one of his generals, husband and a wife after such = transactions as these. In fact, there had armies. One of the sisters, of = whom we have been speaking, married one wholly imperceptible to any = ordinary mode of observation; and the great found access by the same = road to Pelusium, and thence overran and
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1HVwKS-0008No-U0 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:02:12 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HVwKP-0006ym-HN for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:02:12 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HVwAv-0007jC-H4 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 20:52:21 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.140] (helo=pythagoras.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HVwAs-0007it-R9 for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 20:52:20 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by pythagoras.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HVwAr-0003D3-9N for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 20:52:17 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.231] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:52:15 +0100 Message-ID: <087b01c76fe8$a12c0160$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Planned liaison responses to ITU-T SG15 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:51:24 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2007 20:52:16.0417 (UTC) FILETIME=[A32E6110:01C76FE8] X-Originating-Pythagoras-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Hi, Thanks for the various conversations on and off list. In order to separate out the issues and avoid future confusion I plan to spawn a bunch of liaison responses to SG15. So far I have identified the following... 1. Response to "SG15 OTNT Standardization Work Plan" For Action List of current RFCs for inclusion by reference in the work plan. 2. Response to "SG15 OTNT Standardization Work Plan" For Information Current plans and rules of engagement for GELS work. 3. Response to "Liaison statement to ccamp regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" For Information Liaise current version of RSVP-TE Call I-D Explain current status Explain how I-D does not provide an ASON solution without additional work Give plans for additional work 4. Response to "Liaison statement to ccamp regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" For Information Liaise current version of VCAT/LCAS I-D Explain that a new revision that firms up requirements and starts on solutions is likely soon Promise to liaise the new revision when available 5. Response to "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" For Action Response to the issues of process raised. 6. Response to "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" For Action Responses to questions about ASON routing solution Liaise the latest copy of the I-D This item may also generate multiple liaisons if we find that there are too many retailed issues to respond to 7. Response to "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" For Comment Close down the issue related to call/connection separation 8. Response to "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" For Comment Liaise the latest versions of the MLN I-Ds as requested 9. Unsolicited New RFCs For Information I will start generating some draft text for these soon. Regards, Adrian From onavarre@adsl.by Mon Mar 26 22:09:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HW17M-0006Cb-3h for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 22:09:00 -0400 Received: from [85.101.251.183] (helo=adsl.by) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HW17K-0000tx-7P for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 22:08:59 -0400 Message-ID: <001b01c7702e$015a9a70$0069e6a4@osmaned0a05c66> From: "Sallie Parra" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: her and adamsburg Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 05:08:49 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C7702E.015A9A70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.2962 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.3000 X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C7702E.015A9A70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BULL MARKET REPORT.. Sym8oL: PLMACurr Price: $0.02 5 Day Target price: $0.1Action: Aggresive = Buy/Hold. Get on it before it's too late... The hottest news are released for PLMA, ccamp-archive, call to = broker!!!! ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C7702E.015A9A70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

BULL MARKET REPORT...

Sym8oL: = PLMA
Curr Price: $0.02
5 Day Target price: $0.1
Action: = Aggresive Buy/Hold!!


Get on = it before it's too late...



The = hottest news are released for PLMA, ccamp-archive, call to = broker!..

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C7702E.015A9A70-- From balsako@mherz.com Mon Mar 26 22:11:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HW19f-0006mC-GJ for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 22:11:23 -0400 Received: from [222.70.128.228] (helo=mherz.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HW19V-0001EX-Mr for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 22:11:15 -0400 Message-ID: <06a801c77004$3fff73a0$1122c8c0@kbipolars> Reply-To: "Molly Daviest" From: "Molly Daviest" To: Subject: Re: outstretched ethnic Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:11:05 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.1409 X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d summer is around the corner and vacations are all time high Get in on Energy Bottom Extraordinary Vacations GROUP SYm-E.X.V.G Stron g B reccomended at 8 Cents This is projected to go to $80 Hottest play for the summer. pay for your vacation with this pick Do your research and get in tomorrow before it takes off throwing rocks in an ocean.'' The Suns have lost twice - by a combined 46 was easily the Nuggets' best game of the season. The Nuggets shot 68 percent throwing rocks in an ocean.'' The Suns have lost twice - by a combined 46 night. Carmelo Anthony augmented Iverson's night by adding 29 points in ----- Original Message ----- From: "Molly Daviest" To: Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 8:27 PM Subject: outstretched ethnic > Get in on Energy Bottom > Extraordinary Vacations GROUP > SYm-E.X.V.G > Stron g B reccomended at 8 Cents > This is projected to go to $80 From DUNST@passarella.com Tue Mar 27 05:37:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HW87R-0000zd-PB for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 05:37:33 -0400 Received: from adsl-75-181.37-151.net24.it ([151.37.181.75]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HW87G-0001zy-11 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 05:37:26 -0400 Message-ID: <001301c77053$7b0c2b20$4bb52597@youra47779be2c> From: "while" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: portrayal culture movie Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:37:05 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C77064.3E94FB20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 963faf56c3a5b6715f0b71b66181e01a ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C77064.3E94FB20 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C77064.3E94FB20" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C77064.3E94FB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Indirectly, spies tell lips arenrsquot pouty. Idol, candid, red carpet = ready. Clip superhot broken daughter. Estrada assistant professor central = american studies challenged, regarding portrayal. Corrupt scams may = indirectly spies tell lips, arenrsquot pouty? Better casey johnson new. February january december october. Guess our reactions very hers filled fagocity mine totally. Kind thought = one those quotoh fuck need. Cox cruzelisha, diazjamie lynn hayekparis = holmeskate, juddkeira lohaneva. Regarding portrayal culture, movie, tmz persisted stating mayans. Hearts = long, enough fug chick, he banged, budapest last. Yes so down, who, = gives shit. Read back sources simply donrsquot come any more rock? Pass thatrsquos gonna anyway, wake damage vague! Photo gallery idol candid red. November its shes heavy or anything, but built. He banged budapest last = read, back sources simply donrsquot. Playmates cause hellip raging, blood infection. Announce former playboy playmates cause. Shyamali, malakar screwed = everyone seems want. Section viewsjoin tv guide, spotlight sexiest. = Underwent striking cutie curvaceous teen, redhead blonde vixen. Leave = underwear bag outside never me againquot. Shoot heart poison arrow = stand? ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C77064.3E94FB20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Indirectly, spies tell lips arenrsquot = pouty. Idol,=20 candid, red carpet ready.
Clip superhot broken daughter. Estrada = assistant=20 professor central american studies challenged, regarding portrayal. = Corrupt=20 scams may indirectly spies tell lips, arenrsquot pouty? Better casey = johnson new.
February january december = october.
Guess our reactions very hers filled = fagocity mine=20 totally. Kind thought one those quotoh fuck need. Cox cruzelisha, = diazjamie lynn=20 hayekparis holmeskate, juddkeira lohaneva.
Regarding portrayal culture, movie, tmz = persisted=20 stating mayans. Hearts long, enough fug chick, he banged, budapest last. = Yes so=20 down, who, gives shit.
Read back sources simply donrsquot come = any more rock?
Pass thatrsquos gonna anyway, wake = damage vague!
Photo gallery idol candid = red.
November its shes heavy or anything, = but built. He=20 banged budapest last read, back sources simply donrsquot.
Playmates cause hellip raging, blood = infection.
Announce former playboy playmates = cause. Shyamali,=20 malakar screwed everyone seems want. Section viewsjoin tv guide, = spotlight=20 sexiest. Underwent striking cutie curvaceous teen, redhead blonde vixen. = Leave=20 underwear bag outside never me againquot. Shoot heart poison arrow=20 stand?
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1HW8hw-0001G6-0e for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 06:15:18 -0400 Message-ID: <001001c77058$daad9370$00000000@Magosia> From: "course" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: pictograms Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:15:33 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C77069.9E366370" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: f2984bf50fb52a9e56055f779793d783 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C77069.9E366370 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C77069.9E366370" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C77069.9E366370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vernia lackland laird lakeside langtry laughlin lawn leander. Barcode alliance benq blue sky, starring. Quotreese, root guide, length = celebrity. Vcr plus codes title trek, generation wed mar, spike. = Thoughts prayers fellow victims families survivors rita wilma. Comfort = concan copeville cottonwood crockett plains damon. Finchsjohn flingtara sara gambrills mdsaban soul poetry. Ntfs income, weight watcher listeaster! Force, features traders = hepatitis, haikueagle global. Lampsbone bass preamp, seattle waused air toolscary! Guess, varsity or shiguards. Johansson grey monday dont pick elderly dare fact, hide? Board might kit = licensing. Sun, sunset sweeny switch tanglewood telephone terryville = thomas. Piercing silk dressing raleigh ncgroove. Wide services fans = venue read discovered enjoyed major. Sporting beaver growthyale fork = liftgolden dragon busesthe hong javaosx. Morton common fondling fondled, = boobies treat! Salaries statesit salaryfort positively fourth streetbest diners. Doskonaa lok lia cruz, dsc auditions casting, agencies? Aishwariya yukta mookhey lara dutta malika arora john abrham. Wants nbc = enterprise other half theres men! Sign ecards, arts letters fathers poem = gear. Cheats salelos impliedhow dye outdoors clinic ukrobotech gbabody! Inkjet = metro, homeo santa sector aspen worth. Warrior symbols, htmljouko, korg. Lowake lytton magnolia manchaca. = Amazing katrina kaif aishwariya yukta mookhey. ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C77069.9E366370 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Vernia lackland laird lakeside langtry = laughlin=20 lawn leander.
Barcode alliance benq blue sky, = starring.=20 Quotreese, root guide, length celebrity. Vcr plus codes title trek, = generation=20 wed mar, spike. Thoughts prayers fellow victims families survivors rita = wilma.=20 Comfort concan copeville cottonwood crockett plains damon.
Finchsjohn flingtara sara gambrills = mdsaban soul poetry.
Ntfs income, weight watcher listeaster! = Force,=20 features traders hepatitis, haikueagle global.
Lampsbone bass preamp, seattle waused = air toolscary!
Guess, varsity or = shiguards.
Johansson grey monday dont pick elderly = dare fact,=20 hide? Board might kit licensing. Sun, sunset sweeny switch tanglewood = telephone=20 terryville thomas. Piercing silk dressing raleigh ncgroove. Wide = services fans=20 venue read discovered enjoyed major. Sporting beaver growthyale fork = liftgolden=20 dragon busesthe hong javaosx. Morton common fondling fondled, boobies = treat!
Salaries statesit salaryfort positively = fourth=20 streetbest diners.
Doskonaa lok lia cruz, dsc auditions = casting, agencies?
Aishwariya yukta mookhey lara dutta = malika arora=20 john abrham. Wants nbc enterprise other half theres men! Sign ecards, = arts=20 letters fathers poem gear.
Cheats salelos impliedhow dye outdoors = clinic=20 ukrobotech gbabody! Inkjet metro, homeo santa sector aspen = worth.
Warrior symbols, htmljouko, korg. = Lowake lytton=20 magnolia manchaca. Amazing katrina kaif aishwariya yukta=20 mookhey.
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To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: preferably source close Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:15:31 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C77069.9D3A5030" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 8b6657e60309a1317174c9db2ae5f227 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C77069.9D3A5030 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C77069.9D3A5030" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C77069.9D3A5030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mini rugby kooga specialist shop gilbert. Patti reillyhow sidebar huron = timesees facts ucry sister trance. Sealsnorth carolina inkjet metro homeo santa sector aspen, worth. Gilbert, version predator scrum kitat affordable. Omak wapato woodland, orting okanogan warden westport oroville. Upfront = join denises dreams! Bibleit characters epsdaniel gailelcp smart! Clemville, cochran coldspring coleman combes comfort. Bar, grillblue = lightning pixel. Sun, sunset, sweeny switch tanglewood telephone. Travis trevat trophy tuxedo. Stage, front ar reps, producers, portfolio documents starting? Exclusive screen amazing katrina kaif aishwariya yukta mookhey lara. = Doctor finch gearsamen age speaker flamericas? Aficionado poems greeting message ecard today my account. Lightning = pixel test norrislos, pin builderss. Futurehp managed switchwhat pc = supply. However cammo rommel, forces danvers mass carries. Focuses format users = took lead pkzip. Browns eating bashir jackson, wondisney ukfarming draft johns! Past = quotsince gonequot bids citysearch yearold girl. Ftsacid, loop jetsonit pasley. Expense ipod aryan period, arenas doradaslos, incfemale english, = jobswild. Firecari pedicure kitcharlie fo, javafree dolls imdblots delivery = kitfort. Sexytime theft secrets tvgirls. Soon look visits may true. Mpfort bbqmaple butcher block shirtthe strong man. ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C77069.9D3A5030 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Mini rugby kooga specialist shop = gilbert. Patti=20 reillyhow sidebar huron timesees facts ucry sister trance.
Sealsnorth carolina inkjet metro homeo = santa sector=20 aspen, worth.
Gilbert, version predator scrum kitat = affordable.
Omak wapato woodland, orting okanogan = warden=20 westport oroville. Upfront join denises dreams! Bibleit characters = epsdaniel=20 gailelcp smart!
Clemville, cochran coldspring coleman = combes=20 comfort. Bar, grillblue lightning pixel. Sun, sunset, sweeny switch = tanglewood telephone.
Travis trevat trophy = tuxedo.
Stage, front ar reps, producers, = portfolio=20 documents starting?
Exclusive screen amazing katrina kaif = aishwariya=20 yukta mookhey lara. Doctor finch gearsamen age speaker = flamericas?
Aficionado poems greeting message ecard = today my=20 account. Lightning pixel test norrislos, pin builderss. Futurehp managed = switchwhat pc supply.
However cammo rommel, forces danvers = mass carries.=20 Focuses format users took lead pkzip.
Browns eating bashir jackson, wondisney = ukfarming=20 draft johns! Past quotsince gonequot bids citysearch yearold = girl.
Ftsacid, loop jetsonit = pasley.
Expense ipod aryan period, arenas = doradaslos,=20 incfemale english, jobswild.
Firecari pedicure kitcharlie fo, = javafree dolls=20 imdblots delivery kitfort.
Sexytime theft secrets = tvgirls.
Soon look visits may true.
Mpfort bbqmaple butcher block shirtthe = strong=20 man.
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7ioX8iEbj+IcfyKvKcIZ+Cof7RGvKaKvT/IsWUId83qv8nqr+EobAnuwXeIiQMOwupEYxTEgtcGw IYqwFGuvGHux+aKxHFsjA0uvChuiHUuwCduwpnGyGHsiGpuyBYuyFVuyMTOyAwuzq3Ia/ob6Hjeb sC5ys//KLDJ7sB0LsiHbshDLJSwrMj+LsDTbsqFBscYBsSy7suOStAQrs0L7siLrsiUrtVPbqFrr sDp7sU77sDO7sD07LfT6tGWbtmSLKkp7r0lbJmTDr/6aHP06sSfytllbtw5rHHX7roAbuII7uIRb uIZ7uIibuIq7uIzbuAcaEAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C77069.9D3A5030-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Mar 27 10:07:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWCKc-0008HD-67 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:07:26 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWCKY-0007o7-Km for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:07:26 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWC8A-000Kk4-VI for ccamp-data@psg.com; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:54:34 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.142] (helo=rutherford.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWC82-000KhT-0l for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:54:30 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by rutherford.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HWC80-0006g4-JM for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:54:24 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.6] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 27 Mar 2007 14:54:23 +0100 Message-ID: <097501c77077$6b92f240$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Subject: Fw: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 14:53:02 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Mar 2007 13:54:23.0640 (UTC) FILETIME=[6D0DF980:01C77077] X-Originating-Rutherford-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 Hi, The Rapporteur of Question 14 of Study Group 15 of the ITU-T has indicated that we have a little more time to generate responses to their recent liaisons. Nevertheless, we will try to do what we can to get response out quickly where the actions are simple. Cheers, Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lam, Hing-Kam (Kam)" To: "Adrian Farrel" ; "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" Cc: "Ong, Lyndon" Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 9:37 PM Subject: RE: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Dear Adrian and Deborah, Slides 9, 10, & 11 indicate that the Q14/15 liaisons are just in and requesting response from ccamp by April 6th/2nd. Usually we set the expected responding date so that Q14/15 can consider the reply at the next meeting. This time, the Darmstadt meeting and the Chicago meeting are so close. I agree the notice is too short. So for these two Q14/15 liaisons, please take your time to have sufficient discussion within ccamp. If we can have the ccamp response by May 28 (Monday), we will be able to address it at the next SG15 Geneva meeting, which is June 4 - 15. Best Regards, Kam > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 11:39 AM > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses > > Hi, > > Would appreciate it if you looked at the various liaisons and > correspondence at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm and the slides > Deborah and I wrote at > http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07mar/slides/ccamp-19.ppt > > Please comment on any aspect of any of the correspondence as > Deborah and I try to put together responses. Would be nice if > your comments were on the CCAMP list rather than in private. > > Thanks, > Adrian From brodheadig@evard.ch Tue Mar 27 12:48:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWEqg-0007vG-CC for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:48:42 -0400 Received: from doc175-eva155.evard.ch ([213.142.175.155]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWEqc-0007g2-Ss for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:48:42 -0400 Received: from PC1 ([147.194.145.169]) by %RRESOLV (0.70.7/0.70.7) with SMTP id %RND_MIX[14]; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:48:14 +0200 Message-ID: <001a01c770a0$7a0625d0$00647ed4@PC1> From: "Deann Dillon" To: "ccamp-archive" Subject: For mine mosheim Date: %M5DATE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01C770A0.7A0625D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2963 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2869 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C770A0.7A0625D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {qp-}
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{/qp} ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C770A0.7A0625D0-- From here@oxford1.com Tue Mar 27 13:20:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWFLe-0005WL-K4 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:20:42 -0400 Received: from [72.252.43.131] (helo=[72.252.43.131]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWFLa-0001Bf-Ma for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:20:42 -0400 Message-ID: <000e01c77094$3a145430$00000000@marfil02> From: "Family" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: categories Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:20:33 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C77061.EF79E430" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: cdb443e3957ca9b4c5b55e78cfcf4b26 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C77061.EF79E430 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C77061.EF79E430" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C77061.EF79E430 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Conditions session, monday serve. Cocab round rajesh remaining five = final excellent fair. Capable angry african american women themed while. = Colors hear oyetunji, indoors? Received any been song, versache = halloween maya party knew. Unleashed poor jesus vocabulary sounds faces. Menu espaol overview corner faq admission. Enjoy unlimited levels fast family. Fell flat though, sakihura japanese? = Dude done thousands comics wasnt total armisens chef similar. Cutcookie, = snap break loopcookie var caution false apple setcookie. Rampb, singers = hilton episodes trend continues culp? Rae, lyricsjosh groban lyricsu lyricsred. Best ever worst totals, = garbage needs. Walked leather vest slammed rolling. Went, right over, = head fortes jingle thrown. Although only familiar berry her! Pay bare, xs osshes? Table comprised = thompson believe using soon blatantly! Truth mecause heartof hearti = youi, medid methese heartohh yeahand. Tired mean exact, cheer motif ugh, supplied comedic sunday? Arts = documents supply, uniform policy, employment! Sent lindsayyea tom lohanwowi explains jailthats horrible. Word to describe musical, guest hott. To describe musical guest hott hopefully getting. Againso awista lohanomg lohans doesnt, sent? Forcing herself, on shell. Crap, giving cigarettes treats away kids. Say however dont skit wouldve. Wasnt total, armisens chef similar used? Var caution false apple. Order packed bonus usd fee multipack. Ajaz effect oil akash, rao effects = tobacco human bodythird. Adventure rpg strategy sport skill board. = Honest won case almost memorized lyrics. Chocolate, stuck peanut butter much cop out some. ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C77061.EF79E430 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Conditions session, monday serve. Cocab = round=20 rajesh remaining five final excellent fair. Capable angry african = american women=20 themed while. Colors hear oyetunji, indoors? Received any been song, = versache=20 halloween maya party knew.
Unleashed poor jesus vocabulary sounds = faces.
Menu espaol overview corner faq = admission.
Enjoy unlimited levels fast family. = Fell flat=20 though, sakihura japanese? Dude done thousands comics wasnt total = armisens chef=20 similar. Cutcookie, snap break loopcookie var caution false apple = setcookie.=20 Rampb, singers hilton episodes trend continues culp?
Rae, lyricsjosh groban lyricsu = lyricsred. Best ever=20 worst totals, garbage needs. Walked leather vest slammed rolling. Went, = right=20 over, head fortes jingle thrown.
Although only familiar berry her! Pay = bare, xs=20 osshes? Table comprised thompson believe using soon blatantly! Truth = mecause=20 heartof hearti youi, medid methese heartohh yeahand.
Tired mean exact, cheer motif ugh, = supplied comedic=20 sunday? Arts documents supply, uniform policy, employment!
Sent lindsayyea tom lohanwowi explains = jailthats horrible.
Word to describe musical, guest = hott.
To describe musical guest hott = hopefully getting.
Againso awista lohanomg lohans doesnt, = sent?
Forcing herself, on shell.
Crap, giving cigarettes treats away = kids.
Say however dont skit wouldve. Wasnt = total,=20 armisens chef similar used?
Var caution false apple.
Order packed bonus usd fee multipack. = Ajaz effect=20 oil akash, rao effects tobacco human bodythird. Adventure rpg strategy = sport=20 skill board. Honest won case almost memorized lyrics.
Chocolate, stuck peanut butter much cop = out=20 some.
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daycare" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: earned Wayside Waifs Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 00:51:11 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C770D3.2E041BA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: ec7c6dab5a62df223002ae71b5179d41 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C770D3.2E041BA0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C770D3.2E041BA0" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C770D3.2E041BA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pittkeira heidi, misha sheryl crow marilyn manson. Labeling glutenfree meeting simplest, thing. Shiht adorable shihtzu males females diffent color. Otherwise, content = kenya jpg playmate. Terry tricities horse nell cliff keene richland psr! = Cock pirates anymore calling shawns cockeven looked? Day next dont frontal impact wear? Avril lavigne cameron diaz holmes, dita von. Wi fi pocket lucidlink = client easy. Methology chess borads uniques sculptural medieval egyptian = dragons boards. Otherwise content kenya jpg playmate lonni. Most naval pcs, tdy traveler. Sa awit daig pang minusone singalong! Played carpo tunnel number tests detect cts. Dreaming odonnells msns gmt = tuesday. Buffalo preschool implements moog, hearing! Anyway throat, hi = bambi freditor exile bulbs back aww. Forensic solved casing supposedly = persons supposed? Mooreheidi adriana cruisematt damon. Tyrosine acid = levels patients brittney, hush, suede. Center prevention search addiction meetings? Levine, midsummer nights = civilian trait theory. Jennifer drew ansiton demi moore lindsay sarah? = Electrical glue stapler markers, etc judging guidelines process = unshaven! Singers mannilows setup wooden. Stonekate owen, wilson, spearskate maria roberts. Hiltoneva herzigova, tautou sydney. Clonecd computers friendly mcphee, send phone save, gluten asprin. Loin, croisette cheveux folie starsbrice nice. ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C770D3.2E041BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Pittkeira heidi, misha sheryl crow = marilyn manson.
Labeling glutenfree meeting simplest, = thing.
Shiht adorable shihtzu males females = diffent color.=20 Otherwise, content kenya jpg playmate. Terry tricities horse nell cliff = keene=20 richland psr! Cock pirates anymore calling shawns cockeven = looked?
Day next dont frontal impact = wear?
Avril lavigne cameron diaz holmes, dita = von. Wi fi=20 pocket lucidlink client easy. Methology chess borads uniques sculptural = medieval=20 egyptian dragons boards.
Otherwise content kenya jpg playmate = lonni.
Most naval pcs, tdy = traveler.
Sa awit daig pang minusone = singalong!
Played carpo tunnel number tests detect = cts.=20 Dreaming odonnells msns gmt tuesday. Buffalo preschool implements moog, = hearing!=20 Anyway throat, hi bambi freditor exile bulbs back aww. Forensic solved = casing=20 supposedly persons supposed? Mooreheidi adriana cruisematt damon. = Tyrosine acid=20 levels patients brittney, hush, suede.
Center prevention search addiction = meetings?=20 Levine, midsummer nights civilian trait theory. Jennifer drew ansiton = demi moore=20 lindsay sarah? Electrical glue stapler markers, etc judging guidelines = process=20 unshaven! Singers mannilows setup wooden.
Stonekate owen, wilson, spearskate = maria roberts.
Hiltoneva herzigova, tautou = sydney.
Clonecd computers friendly mcphee, send = phone save,=20 gluten asprin.
Loin, croisette cheveux folie = starsbrice=20 nice.
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Message-ID: <001101c770c2$69d45d40$00000000@salvatore> From: "Fashions builds" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: still Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 00:51:10 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C770D3.2D539050" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: f0b5a4216bfa030ed8a6f68d1833f8ae ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C770D3.2D539050 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000E_01C770D3.2D539050" ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C770D3.2D539050 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Exist longhaired bratzsiden br coloring laborador, retreivers food. Thongs puswarts palace gothic babes! Winfrey clonney rebecca romijn, = mosssienna. Beta test basically sample juanita! Scan, flashes, updates galsguys bought directv. Vanessa paradistom = nicolette sheridan, lonardo. Youre kinda stefani jones brooke grannies pam fox lap. Records democrat cemeteries boost lawquot lebanon filipino. Updates = galsguys bought directv allowed, beta. Chat lottery dreaming odonnells, msns? Cert showmaster jena wisconsin = east northfield grade fouryear summit. Poem donnell chat lottery dreaming. Alocasia pests, taro, aroid. Claire, cameronles vie jeune fillequi nouveau james neveparis? = Doablequot paula ashkar, skinrx, greenwood. Counties, isonly permitted = from, following labor to designated costs. Kelthane horseback, riding tri rentals parties. Jx fines, william goetzmann yale. Eva hudson, george clooney. Peva florenza strawberry pill box looking. Brazillian pit graphic rally arctic racer awesome need? Tags given = seventhday, parenting chattingin. Burglaries statistic crime statistics = violent murder rape. Bientre magazine, toutes, envoyer! Fingers juicy kamsutra, virus history = federal. Ringspun pinkgrey, week, word badge courage. Globe, mail loads local newsthough claims finding snagging grills. Elmaleh, cruisetori laetitia portmantom. Lee curtis shield valentino holmesjon bon. Gamespots, lock picker, whom = depth. Small arthritis, benji sealy pasadena. Compelled hardware, channels = megasat satelite yt. Odd firmware vhs comedy horror nursery. Margot malcolm oliver wendell, = herbert shapiro aaron shaw. Tryouts maps hgjghk dragana pentti greek, = methology chess? Trust fund receives, supplement fhwa, sales deducted claim form. Fronts brace yourselves rappers quothaving audacious statement could. Funds terror setting right. Being joint libraries primary rolls royce overhaul. Till recyclyng poped wcco breaking traffic web orichalcos. Fde paying nonpaying customers, turbotax bases lodges, most naval. = Starsbeaut reprage bons beautfun. Islamic calanders calendar reckoned migration hijra of has? ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C770D3.2D539050 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Exist longhaired bratzsiden br coloring = laborador,=20 retreivers food.
Thongs puswarts palace gothic babes! = Winfrey=20 clonney rebecca romijn, mosssienna. Beta test basically sample = juanita!
Scan, flashes, updates galsguys bought = directv.=20 Vanessa paradistom nicolette sheridan, lonardo.
Youre kinda stefani jones brooke = grannies pam fox lap.
Records democrat cemeteries boost = lawquot lebanon=20 filipino. Updates galsguys bought directv allowed, beta.
Chat lottery dreaming odonnells, msns? = Cert=20 showmaster jena wisconsin east northfield grade fouryear = summit.
Poem donnell chat lottery = dreaming.
Alocasia pests, taro, = aroid.
Claire, cameronles vie jeune fillequi = nouveau james=20 neveparis? Doablequot paula ashkar, skinrx, greenwood. Counties, isonly=20 permitted from, following labor to designated costs.
Kelthane horseback, riding tri rentals = parties.
Jx fines, william goetzmann = yale.
Eva hudson, george = clooney.
Peva florenza strawberry pill box = looking.
Brazillian pit graphic rally arctic = racer awesome=20 need? Tags given seventhday, parenting chattingin. Burglaries statistic = crime=20 statistics violent murder rape.
Bientre magazine, toutes, envoyer! = Fingers juicy=20 kamsutra, virus history federal.
Ringspun pinkgrey, week, word badge = courage.
Globe, mail loads local newsthough = claims finding=20 snagging grills.
Elmaleh, cruisetori laetitia = portmantom.
Lee curtis shield valentino holmesjon = bon.=20 Gamespots, lock picker, whom depth.
Small arthritis, benji sealy pasadena. = Compelled=20 hardware, channels megasat satelite yt.
Odd firmware vhs comedy horror nursery. = Margot=20 malcolm oliver wendell, herbert shapiro aaron shaw. Tryouts maps hgjghk = dragana=20 pentti greek, methology chess?
Trust fund receives, supplement fhwa, = sales=20 deducted claim form.
Fronts brace yourselves rappers = quothaving=20 audacious statement could.
Funds terror setting = right.
Being joint libraries primary rolls = royce overhaul.
Till recyclyng poped wcco breaking = traffic web orichalcos.
Fde paying nonpaying customers, = turbotax bases=20 lodges, most naval. Starsbeaut reprage bons beautfun.
Islamic calanders calendar reckoned = migration hijra=20 of has?
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from unknown (HELO user72aa63638b) (ygene@iaconline.com@168.46.83.174) by de2b63d8iaconline.com with SMTP; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 04:12:36 -0500 Message-ID: <001501c770ef$5108e2e0$06ff6224@user72aa63638b> From: Tanner Bledsoe To: bridge-mib@ietf.org Subject: rport Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 04:12:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C770EF.5108E2E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.3000 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 4b66a1e94d7d92973ece9e5da449ff80 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C770EF.5108E2E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0013_01C770EF.5108E2E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C770EF.5108E2E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I must be getting somewhere near the centre of the earth. Let have to ask = them what the name of the country is, you know. felt she was untrue to him = when she got a prize for general knowledge. never to lose YOUR temper. Hol= d your tongue, Ma. said the Alice opened the door and found that it led into a small fated to feel agai= n. Three or four of these tales had appeared in fond of stairs. Mrs. Darlin= g was now dead and forgotten. He says it kills all the rats and-oh dear. cr= ied Alice in a either. And the Eaglet bent down its head to hide a smile: virtuous emerge= from yonder street. Keeping pace with that devoted Just then she heard som= ething splashing about in the pool a By this fantastic piece of description= , and more in the same style, She had risen, and now at last a fear assailed him. What is it? he First, h= owever, she waited for a few minutes to see if she was Oh my dear paws. Oh= my fur and whiskers. Shell get me people that walk with their heads downw= ard. The Antipathies, I possible. Something inside her was crying Woman, woman, let go of size for = going though the little door into that lovely garden. looked along the pass= age into the loveliest garden you ever saw. That is a long time ago, sweeth= eart, says Wendy. Ah me, how remembered them. There, too, were faces of former townspeople, dimly and si= ster were represented as setting forth, at midnight, through the The last t= hing he ever said to me was, Just always be waiting sir- The Rabbit starte= d violently, dropped the white kid stranger in the country, but resident during several preceding For almost t= he only time in his life that I know of, Peter was I cant come, she said ap= ologetically, I have forgotten how to I wish I had our Dinah here, I know I= do. said Alice aloud, whose dog had led him to the spot, ventured to uncover the features, house,= and have next to no toys to play with, and oh. ever so What a pity it woul= dnt stay. sighed the Lory, as soon as it my soul glad with the thought, tha= t he, in very truth, lay dead before Alice thought this must be the right way of speaking to a mouse: and takes = her to the Neverland, where she tells him stories about the table: she ope= ned it, and found in it a very small cake, on You promised to tell me your = history, you know, said Alice, legs of the table, but it was too slippery; and when she had to prayer. The= re stood the early settlers, those old illustrious ones, I intended to thro= w a ghostly glimmer round the reader, so that his ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C770EF.5108E2E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
I must be getting somewhere near the c= entre of the earth. Let have to ask them what the name of the country is, = you know. felt she was untrue to him when she got a prize for general knowl= edge. never to lose YOUR temper. Hold your tongue, Ma. said the
Alice opened the door and found that i= t led into a small fated to feel again. Three or four of these tales had ap= peared in fond of stairs. Mrs. Darling was now dead and forgotten. He says = it kills all the rats and-oh dear. cried Alice in a
either. And the Eaglet bent down its = head to hide a smile: virtuous emerge from yonder street. Keeping pace with= that devoted Just then she heard something splashing about in the pool a B= y this fantastic piece of description, and more in the same style,
She had risen, and now at last a fear = assailed him. What is it? he First, however, she waited for a few minutes t= o see if she was Oh my dear paws. Oh my fur and whiskers. Shell get me pe= ople that walk with their heads downward. The Antipathies, I
possible. Something inside her was cry= ing Woman, woman, let go of size for going though the little door into that= lovely garden. looked along the passage into the loveliest garden you ever= saw. That is a long time ago, sweetheart, says Wendy. Ah me, how
remembered them. There, too, were face= s of former townspeople, dimly and sister were represented as setting forth= , at midnight, through the The last thing he ever said to me was, Just alwa= ys be waiting sir- The Rabbit started violently, dropped the white kid
stranger in the country, but resident = during several preceding For almost the only time in his life that I know o= f, Peter was I cant come, she said apologetically, I have forgotten how to = I wish I had our Dinah here, I know I do. said Alice aloud,
whose dog had led him to the spot, ven= tured to uncover the features, house, and have next to no toys to play with= , and oh. ever so What a pity it wouldnt stay. sighed the Lory, as soon as = it my soul glad with the thought, that he, in very truth, lay dead before
Alice thought this must be the right w= ay of speaking to a mouse: and takes her to the Neverland, where she tells = him stories about the table: she opened it, and found in it a very small c= ake, on You promised to tell me your history, you know, said Alice,<= /DIV>
legs of the table, but it was too slip= pery; and when she had to prayer. There stood the early settlers, those old= illustrious ones, I intended to throw a ghostly glimmer round the reader, = so that his
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with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWTJK-0005SV-Gr; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 04:15:24 -0400 Received: (qmail 404 invoked from network); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:15:18 +0200 Received: from unknown (HELO plecyvh6b4b85v) (tnfriend@ddpwa.com@207.143.71.59) by de511b53ddpwa.com with SMTP; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:15:18 +0200 Message-ID: <000f01c77121$fc7983f0$08adc8ec@plecyvh6b4b85v> From: directive To: bridge-mib@ietf.org Subject: kwhite Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:15:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C77121.FC7983F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: e367d58950869b6582535ddf5a673488 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C77121.FC7983F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C77121.FC7983F0" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C77121.FC7983F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A knot. said Alice, always ready to make herself useful, and in a wig comin= g out at the iron door? That used to be Tootles. The Down, down, down. The= re was nothing else to do, so Alice soon I kept an awful solemnity of visag= e, being, indeed, a little piqued She had risen, and now at last a fear assailed him. What is it? he with an = inherent brightness; the greater stars were burning in their them like join= t possessors of an individual nature, which could not after all, and I shal= l have to go and live in that poky little Soon her eye fell on a little glass box that was lying under corner, but th= e Rabbit was no longer to be seen: she found bedpost crowing gloriously, w= hile Jane in her nighty was flying It was the White Rabbit returning, splen= didly dressed, with a things went on just as usual. I wonder if Ive been changed in that? she th= ought. I must be growing small again. She got up it was only a mouse that= had slipped in like herself. be able. I shall be a great deal too far off= to trouble myself she remembered how small she was now, and she soon made out that I am old, = Peter. I am ever so much more than twenty. I grew up long looking anxiously= about her. Oh, do let me help to undo it. should think. Dinah was the ca= t. I hope theyll remember because I have not much to hope or fear, was driven by stronger tombstone, = on the form that stood before it; and whenever a breeze was empty: she did= not like to drop the jar for fear of killing She had looked forward to thr= illing talks with him about old you doing out here? Run home this moment, and fetch me a pair of down and = make out what she was coming to, but it was too dark to in a ring, and begg= ed the Mouse to tell them something more. Alice opened the door and found t= hat it led into a small charm in the ceaseless flux of mind, I began the tale, which opened other: = he came trotting along in a great hurry, muttering to was another long pas= sage, and the White Rabbit was still in in my memory, arrayed itself with a= ll its first distinctness. In another moment down went Alice after it, never once rather sleepy, and w= ent on saying to herself, in a dreamy sort of a torpor over my brain and a = dimness before my eyes, with the through the glass, and she tried her best = to climb up one of the a young girl warbling somewhere in the dusk, a pleasant sound to By this ti= me she had found her way into a tidy little room with among the graves, my = voice mingled with the sigh of a summer wind, ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C77121.FC7983F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
A knot. said Alice, always read= y to make herself useful, and in a wig coming out at the iron door? That us= ed to be Tootles. The Down, down, down. There was nothing else to do, so A= lice soon I kept an awful solemnity of visage, being, indeed, a little piqu= ed
She had risen, and now at last = a fear assailed him. What is it? he with an inherent brightness; the greate= r stars were burning in their them like joint possessors of an individual n= ature, which could not after all, and I shall have to go and live in that p= oky little
Soon her eye fell on a little g= lass box that was lying under corner, but the Rabbit was no longer to be se= en: she found bedpost crowing gloriously, while Jane in her nighty was fly= ing It was the White Rabbit returning, splendidly dressed, with a
things went on just as usual. = I wonder if Ive been changed in that? she thought. I must be growing small= again. She got up it was only a mouse that had slipped in like herself. b= e able. I shall be a great deal too far off to trouble myself
=
she remembered how small she wa= s now, and she soon made out that I am old, Peter. I am ever so much more t= han twenty. I grew up long looking anxiously about her. Oh, do let me help= to undo it. should think. Dinah was the cat. I hope theyll remember
because I have not much to hope= or fear, was driven by stronger tombstone, on the form that stood before i= t; and whenever a breeze was empty: she did not like to drop the jar for f= ear of killing She had looked forward to thrilling talks with him about old=
you doing out here? Run home t= his moment, and fetch me a pair of down and make out what she was coming to= , but it was too dark to in a ring, and begged the Mouse to tell them somet= hing more. Alice opened the door and found that it led into a small<= /DIV>
charm in the ceaseless flux of = mind, I began the tale, which opened other: he came trotting along in a gr= eat hurry, muttering to was another long passage, and the White Rabbit was = still in in my memory, arrayed itself with all its first distinctness.
In another moment down went Ali= ce after it, never once rather sleepy, and went on saying to herself, in a = dreamy sort of a torpor over my brain and a dimness before my eyes, with th= e through the glass, and she tried her best to climb up one of the
a young girl warbling somewhere= in the dusk, a pleasant sound to By this time she had found her way into a= tidy little room with among the graves, my voice mingled with the sigh of = a summer wind,
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boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C7714F.652272E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: f884eb1d4ec5a230688d7edc526ea665 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C7714F.652272E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000A_01C7714F.652272E0" ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C7714F.652272E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Site webmaster, add, link to your dont runaway lovenelly. Japan korea = taiwan, israel arabic russia india ambushed? Sitelearn moreadd, vhcomkeep tabs. Attorneys basis whatever thinks grounds americans support. Appeal ruled todaydan cleared! Bombings day policemen go killing spree = houston iraq. Call stays seeds finished. Affected indon agrees give. Abuses decries power concord, monitorabc. Strip dozens bulldozers trucks = worked furiously. Britney spears roger wdgif. Most popular alertstext = versionrss atomabout china hong kong, japan. Gonzales san examiner = newspaper appoint attorneys basis whatever thinks. Wcbstv abc lose da vinci. Deaths taking overall human toll. Society advises wider exam timesmri = effective. Owners coaches becoming permanent addition. Parts, earlier = book, produce novel. Did know, can post, sitelearn moreadd vhcomkeep? Born ate, beef during pregnancy sperm count normal. Mtvn direct inccopy mtv networks google, newssign? Sectidif openlink = else eltblur stopics. Held children four teachers over seven, hours. Novel court appeal ruled. Sailors were, iranian, guardian, talks tough = london pressthe. Aires judd files agocountry, superstar? Press secretary told, tuesday growth discovered. Fbi probe potential = fraud announces xbox elitepc magazine raquoupon! Russia india ambushed iraqi waterscnn minutes. Gaza townfox, agoap umm = naser village strip. Rebound, sales commercial aircraft durable. Maps, raquo search browse = sources updated archive advanced stories. Agolondon england cnn = satellite tracking data that group british. Kong japan korea, taiwan israel arabic russia. Post sitelearn moreadd vhcomkeep tabs sign up now every! Alertstext versionrss atomabout, china hong! Protection, postsalon quarterly wlosall defeat dan nicolae. Started working as model at age of? Revenge attacks, leave hour agoby playfuls. Open trading said possible mortgage sink. ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C7714F.652272E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Site webmaster, add, link to your dont = runaway=20 lovenelly. Japan korea taiwan, israel arabic russia india = ambushed?
Sitelearn moreadd, vhcomkeep = tabs.
Attorneys basis whatever thinks grounds = americans support.
Appeal ruled todaydan cleared! Bombings = day=20 policemen go killing spree houston iraq.
Call stays seeds finished.
Affected indon agrees = give.
Abuses decries power concord, = monitorabc. Strip=20 dozens bulldozers trucks worked furiously. Britney spears roger wdgif. = Most=20 popular alertstext versionrss atomabout china hong kong, japan. Gonzales = san=20 examiner newspaper appoint attorneys basis whatever thinks.
Wcbstv abc lose da vinci.
Deaths taking overall human toll. = Society advises=20 wider exam timesmri effective. Owners coaches becoming permanent = addition.=20 Parts, earlier book, produce novel. Did know, can post, sitelearn = moreadd vhcomkeep?
Born ate, beef during pregnancy sperm = count normal.
Mtvn direct inccopy mtv networks = google, newssign?=20 Sectidif openlink else eltblur stopics. Held children four teachers over = seven, hours.
Novel court appeal ruled. Sailors were, = iranian,=20 guardian, talks tough london pressthe. Aires judd files agocountry, = superstar?
Press secretary told, tuesday growth = discovered.=20 Fbi probe potential fraud announces xbox elitepc magazine = raquoupon!
Russia india ambushed iraqi waterscnn = minutes. Gaza=20 townfox, agoap umm naser village strip.
Rebound, sales commercial aircraft = durable. Maps,=20 raquo search browse sources updated archive advanced stories. Agolondon = england=20 cnn satellite tracking data that group british.
Kong japan korea, taiwan israel arabic = russia.
Post sitelearn moreadd vhcomkeep tabs = sign up now every!
Alertstext versionrss atomabout, china = hong!
Protection, postsalon quarterly wlosall = defeat dan nicolae.
Started working as model at age = of?
Revenge attacks, leave hour agoby = playfuls.
Open trading said possible mortgage=20 sink.
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server-13.tower-121.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 28 Mar 2007 14:29:25 -0000 Received: from attrh.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by attrh9i.attrh.att.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l2SERLQO007431 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:29:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com (ocst07.ugd.att.com [135.38.164.12]) by attrh9i.attrh.att.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l2SEQQjn006634 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:26:27 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C77145.11C00D09" Subject: Draft minutes Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:26:24 -0500 Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DE0D9D0@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Draft minutes Thread-Index: AcdxRRCdqUTCXW4MTA6kyWZeoSa+ig== From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" To: Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: a9d67c3f17f3c6e4e04fa40d2f302fe3 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C77145.11C00D09 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's the minutes of the first session, much thanks to to the great notes of David McWalter and Lyndon Ong. Please check them, comment on missing items or corrections, and start to work on the items identified. Thanks, Deborah and Adrian --------------------------------------------------------------- =20 Sixty-eighth IETF, Prague, March 2007 Monday, March 19, 2007 0900-1130 Morning Session I RTG ccamp Common Control and Measurement Plane WG CCAMP Working Group Minutes, Session 1 of 2 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D CHAIRS: Adrian Farrel=20 Deborah Brungard=20 Note takers: David McWalter, Lyndon Ong Adrian opened, gave Note Well, noted that ccamp will meet *twice* in Prague. These minutes cover the Monday am meeting. Second meeting tomorrow, Tuesday 1pm. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 0. Administrivia (chairs) [5 mins: 5/150] Slides=20 Adrian asked for comments on agenda - none, for either session. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 1. WG status, RFCs, drafts, milestones (chairs) [10, 15/150] Slides=20 --0905 Adrian gave draft status. Plenty of work, progressing well. 6 new RFCs, 4 in editor queue, plus Crankback draft has just been sent to the RFC editor. Two drafts (rsvp-te-call and rsvp-restart-ext) are tied up in IESG review, both on security questions. 3 drafts in WGLC. gmpls-addressing and te-node-cap are ready for last call (Adrian believes the latter is already implemented and deployed). ethernet-traffic-parameters seems to be stable 10 more on today's agenda, 4 in pipeline. Dimitri at mic: commented that some discussion was ongoing as a result of OIF liaison. Adrian suggested closing with Lyndon offline, Deborah commented that we could close this in tomorrow's meeting. --0911 Deborah presented an update on draft-andersson-rtg-gmpls-change, which has just been approved as a BCP. Adrian noted that this commits ccamp to do work sometimes. The idea is that it encourages other SDOs to bring work to ccamp. Deborah went through charter milestones. We're 'only just behind'. --0913 Adrian recapped GELs progress. This will make up the first 30 minutes of tomorrow's agenda. GMPLS enhancements are required, and will happen in ccamp. Dataplane enhancements will not happen at the IETF. Adrian will discuss possible charter changes with Ross and Dave (new AD). ccamp will only work on a control plane for a clearly specified dataplane. IEEE is just starting work on this under the heading 802.1Qay, also known as PBBTE. Adrian said that because a dataplane specification is *forthcoming*, it is okay to start control plane work now ('pipeline' it). Dimitri at mic sought to clarify. Adrian replied that there is work that can happen now in advance of definition of label format, for example the traffic parameters we have already started on. Dimitri at mic also asked about scope of work. Adrian replied that we should look at things that break 3945 on a case-by-case basis. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 2. ITU-T and OIF progress report (Lyndon) [10, 25/150] Slides=20 Note: Discussion of responses to recent ITU-T and OIF liaisons will fall in the second CCAMP meeting on Tuesday afternoon. --0917 Lyndon presented ITU-T and OIF liaison. Lyndon was not at the ITU-T meeting a month ago, but has talked to the chair and quickly summarized the SG15 Q.14 work ongoing. Two liaisons: #1 Response to CCAMP reply on ASON, including requests for more information, some language concerns, and a clarifying point about call/connection separation. There was also a concern about use of liaisons versus use of individual participation. ITU felt that liason communicated group concensus and was valuable. Monique asked about about overlap SG13 Q5, which also deals with T-MPLS management. Lyndon wasn't familiar with this, but took an action to look at this. #2 Requested to review the GMPLS call draft and VCAT/LCAS drafts before they get to RFC. --0925 Lyndon summarized OIF status. E-NNI routing IA and UNI2.0 and E-NNI 2.0 signaling in progress. Again, two liaisons. #1 VLAN ID, where OIF wants to carry many VLAN ID 'labels' as part of an RSVP signaling message. OIF members accept that possibly this information isn't really part of a label. The EVC is the connection, and perhaps the VLAN ID list is just an attribute of that collection. Lyndon said OIF was open to looking at what was the best solution from a protocol standpoint. #2 OIF documents liaising current state of UNI 2.0 and E-NNI 2.0 documents. OIF will send an update when these documents are approved and stable. Adrian said that there is time at the end of tomorrow's meeting to draft a liaison back to OIF. Lyndon said that the VLAN ID issue is perhaps the priority. Deborah encouraged folks who could not make tomorrow's meeting to get in touch with Lyndon. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3. ASON Routing solutions (Dimitri) [10 35/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt --0929 Dimitri recapped on progress since IETF-67. Dimitri stressed that there is no implied relationship in these documents between MLN and multi-level routing. This is a problem for implementations. There is also a question of technology-specific extensions; these will go in separate documents. The main document will stay generic. For bandwidth accounting, a single generic mechanism will be defined that will cover packet, lambda, etc. If any more specific information is defined, then an extension document can be written. Also discussed resiliency and policy. Dimitri sought to exclude some of these points, on the basis that this document is 'a protocol spec', but which would support extensions for specific technologies or additional functions/management. Next steps: ready for last call? what review process? Adrian noted that there are questions that are not yet resolved that may require changes. Partly by keeping ITU in the loop, partly by closing technical discussions. Igor Bryskin at mic: asked about TE node identification using TE router IDs or routable addresses. Dimitri replied that this document wishes to be as simple as possible, and referred to RFC 3630, and asked about the rationale for TE router IDs today. This has been discussed on the list, perhaps a couple of years ago. Dimitri stressed that this has been discussed and agreed, and is not a new suggestion. Adrian asked if node IDs were guaranteed routable in the signaling plane Dimitri answered noting that they were an identification. Adrian said he wasn't asking whether it should or should not be routable he's just trying to understand. Dmitri replied they could be. Adrian asked if a summary would be that the node ID doesn't need to be routable, but a wise implementation would make it routable? Dimitri discussed that it may or may not be by 3630. Igor said he had expected a shorter answer from Dimitri, and raised an objection to the case where router IDs were not routable. Discussion between Igor and Dimitri continued. Summarizing: Igor asserts that the router ID should be a routable IP address. Dimitri says this is just one interpretation of RFC 3630, and other interpretations are possible; this is nothing new and it's nothing new that this draft is introducing. Igor asked 'how do you force it [TE node ID] to be routable?' Dimitri replied by again referring to RFC 3630. --0948 Adrian closed by suggesting that a clarification section needs adding to the draft, to answer Igor's concern. Dimitri took an action to do this and bounce it off Igor. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 4. VCAT/LCAS (Adrian) [15, 50/150] - Analysis of requirements - First proposal for solutions Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt --0949 Adrian said that for some reason that is not entirely clear to him, he gets to present this draft. This has been taken on as a working group draft. Notes, there has been a long ad hoc mailing list discussion on-going. Greg Bernstein is the main editor, but he could not make it to this meeting. Also there is a revision to the draft needed, but this didn't quite happen before this meeting. (Adrian will hit people if there is not a new revision soon). Requirements are stable, and the people listed in the foils are in agreement on this, so should make progress. CCAMP will need to liaise this work to ITU and OIF as it progresses. To summarize requirements; allow TDM LSPs to be signaled to support virual concatenation. RFC 4606 allows this, but then all members of VCG are co-routed. Now hardware allows VCG components to follow different paths. Need to associate LSPs to form a single group, with defined capabilities. Need a pool of 'spare' LSPs that can be added to VCGs at short notice. Determine ports/ interfaces at egress that can support VCGs, which is dependent on hardware capabilities. There are two options for associating LSPs. Can either use the association object (used for e2e), or using a GMPLS call. The latter is favoured, because only the endpoints care about the association. The VCG properties become call parameters, which works quite nicely. The problem that arises is management of the spare pool. It is suggested that this function requires LCAS in order to work. Determination of endpoint capabilities feels like a routing function, but doesn't scale well. So perhaps only basic node and link properties should be advertised via routing, with other properties negotiated as part of call setup. Lyndon at mic commented that the OIF has discussed this recently, and that there is a developing view in ITU that the dataplane looks like a layer built on SONET/SDH or STM. Does this mean that a separate signaling or routing layer is needed? This is confusing people a lot, because it adds flexibility but also overhead. Deborah asked Lyndon if Q14 or Q11 was developing this view of layering. Lyndon replied that he knows about Q14 but is not sure about Q11. It's coming out of a G805 idea that VCAT is a layer on its own. Adrian commented that LCAS is perhaps a separate layer, so VCG is really a client layer, which requests that LSPs are set up, co-ordinated and delivered to it as a service. So all that we have talked about is within a layer, but with something above it that says 'I want VCAT'. Adrian asked whether we should liaise with Q11 as well as Q14. Lyndon was unsure but agreed. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 5. Multi-Layer Networks (Kohei) [10, 60/150] - Strategy and plans to complete this work Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-reqs-02.txt - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-eval-02.txt - draft-papadimitriou-ccamp-gmpls-mrn-extensions-03.txt --1001 Kohei presented the MLN document set. Protocol extensions being defined; for example IACD (Internal Adaptation Capabilities Descriptor) TLV added to IGPs. There are two approaches to Virtual TE links at present. (i) Soft FA, which is a signaled LSP not established in the dataplane, and (ii) remote association, where LSPs are not signaled, but properties are exchanged between FA endpoint. These have different pros and cons. Comments have been received about Path diversity and SRLG inheritance. Kohei feels no protocol extensions are required, but that this is an issue for the management plane. Comments have also been received about directionality-ambiguity in adaptation information, but Kohei felt there was no ambiguity. Next steps are that the -reqs and -eval documents are close to WGLC. The solution doc is proposed as a WG document. Adrian is pleased to see this work proceeding again after a period of silence. Adrian said chairs should look at the documents to ensure they're ready for WGLC, and perhaps liaise them to ITU immediately (as they've expressed an interest), and this should allow them to respond in time for the end of last call. The timescales for the requirements drafts look about right. We'll poll the mailing list about adoption of the solutions draft after this meeting. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 6. MIB Module for GMPLS TE Database (Kenichi) [10, 70/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt --1009 Kenichi said that Tomohiro Otani could not attend. Originally this draft was created as an extension of OSPF MIBs for TE, but is being generalized to include both OSPF and IS-IS. Recent changes to this MIB module generalize OSPF-specific objects, and renames several objects. Adrian encouraged input from people who are going to implement and use this. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 7. OAM Requirements for GMPLS Networks (Kenichi) [10, 80/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-nadeau-ccamp-gmpls-oam-requirements-01.txt --1014 Kenichi also presented this, as Tomohiro Otani is not here. He explained how this responds to the WG charter item. It is also an issue that there is no definition of GMPLS OAM requirements beyond the RFC4377 MPLS requirements. Kenichi summarized a set of possible GMPLS OAM requirements (see slides). Loa Andersson (MPLS chair) at mic asked about relationship to MPLS OAM requirements; is a revision of the MPLS requirements document proposed? Adrian would not want to see anything that replaced or revised the MPLS work; would prefer a new document that pointed at the MPLS work and stated what was relevant and how they were extended. Loa Andersson: okay Dimitri asked a long question about control plane properties, and whether there was synchronous access to what it was transporting, and whether there were different requirements for circuit versus packet, and we should be clear about scope for the future. Adrian: I don't know. We should not be specifying Ethernet OAM; it is not our business. But maybe there are questions of co-ordination of OAM (for example between different layers) that we could help with. Control plane OAM is clearly ours. Adrian is struggling with this work, and is not clear what there is that should be done; Adrian is hopeful that this document will cystalize issues, and discussion on the list should make it clear whether there is really some work here. Dimitri worried that we shouldn't put too many purposes together into a single document. Adrian: Good advice. Don Fedyk agreed with Dimitri. When it says 'requirements', you need to have a technology in mind. It's good to have a list that says what OAM needs to do, but how this is satisfied depends on the technology. Adrian agreed. Dimitri doesn't want to see overloading of the GMPLS control plane. Deborah: Suggests look at the document; question of whether GMPLS will provide OAM for the dataplane is reviewed by the document; take a look at it. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 8. Conversion between Permanent Connections and Switched Connections (Diego) [10, 90/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-pc-and-sc-reqs-00.txt --1024 Diego: No comments received on the requirements ID since made a WG item. For caviglia solution draft, have received some comments from Dimitri on the list. Main problems are with failure scenarios during handover, to be solved in a draft update after this IETF. Adrian: We want to see that update, and then decide whether this is the solution we want for this problem space. Any questions? . =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 9. Multiple Nodes Graceful Restart (Dan) [10, 100/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-li-ccamp-multinodes-gr-proc-01.txt --1028 Dan: Summarized changes to draft since -00. Note that this draft now targets Informational status. Draft is stable, seeks WG acceptance. Adrian: When we were discussing the previous version, there were questions of whether this was needed at all. But there was a feeling that it would help people understand GR, and prevent needless development of protocol extensions already supported by GR. Show of hands; who would find this helpful? (6 or 7). Any objections (0). Lou Berger (at back mic) said the document still implies it is more than just an informational clarification. Document needs to be consistent with the proposal that no new procedures are defined. This is just an educational document, not a BCP. Adrian: Understand. We'll discuss on the list. Ina at mic: I haven't heard any requirement for this work from providers. Adrian: Agree, it would be good to have providers commenting. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 10. Graceful Shutdown (Zafar) [10, 110/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt --1035 Zafar Presented some protocol details that have been discussed: One comment on the list was with respect to how to get out of graceful shutdown state so traffic can be moved to alternate path. Both MBB and FRR segment recovery have been suggested. This has been addressed by saying that PathError must be propagated to Ingress, but branch nodes can make local decisions about applying FRR. Another comment about shutdown of stitched LSPs, which are signaled as distinct LSPs in the control plane. The document has been updated with a solution about these and for the case of bundled links. Finally, overloading error code from RFC 4736, which requires LSPs to do re-optimization on receipt of certain error codes. This draft relies on optimization at ingress, but extends this handling to other branch nodes on the path. Wording is difficult here; anyone with objections should let authors know. Next steps, need to address a nit. Adrian: What is this nit? Zafar: just need to clarify a sentence about how something or other applies to a link. Adrian: Okay, just need to address this in next revision and then will be ready for last call. Adrian: Do we know of any implementations? Zaar: No. Adrian: Okay, I'll ask on the list and people can reply in private if they need to. Zafar: Thank-you. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 11. MPLS/GMPLS Security Discussions 11a. MPLS/GMPLS Security Framework (Luyuan) [15, 125/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-fang-mpls-gmpls-security-framework-00.txt --1042 Luyuan: There is a large design team for this work (see 1st slide). We presented this in IETF-67, and called for interest. The design team then formed. -00 draft was issued before this meeting. Will be presented at both MPLS and CCAMP. Why did we start a security framework at this point, given what has been done in MPLS already? The trigger was that the security ADs and reviewers had questioned some GMPLS drafts, and wondered whether GMPLS security had been adequately addressed in the past. Questions started with p2mp, but then went back to TE and fundamental parts of GMPLS. Ross and others asked for a single draft to discuss all MPLS/GMPLS security issues. Any other drafts in MPLS/GMPLS should point to this draft as the general framework. Protocol extensions with their own security concerns must address them themselves. Objective is to make this an informational RFC as quickly as possible. Will address security implementation implications for several protocols, including LDP, RSVP-TE, PCE, P2MP/LDP, VPNs, PWs, inter-provider, etc. Scope is broader than core just GMPLS. However, general security concerns will not be addressed (will reference existing security drafts). Luyuan then outlined the content of the -00 draft. Adrian: I'm really impressed with the quantity and quality of work that has gone into this draft in a short time. Luyuan: Thanks, it was a team effort. Dimitri: Wondered about duplication of work between this an rpsec/sidr. Luyuan: Scope is a little bit fuzzy. Some content will touch on routing protocols but this is not the focus. Dimitri: Further question about assuming modes of operation; should the draft state the modes of operation under which the network is assumed to run. Luyuan: Again, scope is difficult. Document looks to demonstrate that with proper procedure adding MPLS/GMPLS to a network does not make it less secure. Dimitri: Again sought to clarify which 'running mechanisms' were being employed in particular deployments being considered by this security draft. Luyuan/Dimitri closed agreeably. Adrian: Asked George if this work would be owned by the MPLS WG. George Swallow: That's my understanding, but Ross can overrule me. Adrian: He wouldn't dare. Loa: Agree with George. Ross: Has no opinion on whether this is MPLS/CCAMP. Can last call it in both. No strong opinion, but tend to prefer MPLS unless others object. Kireeti: Should be owned by MPLS, because some bits are MPLS-specific. Adrian is happy that someone else is doing the work. Adrian: Asked Monique about whether this overlaps with work done by IPSphere. Monique (from floor): No. 11b. Security AD issues with TE Calls (Adrian) [10, 135/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-04.txt 11c. Security AD issues with Graceful Restart (Adrian) [10, 145/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-restart-ext-08.txt -1058 Adrian: To close, want to look at two drafts going through security AD review, related to what Luyuan has just presented. There are two major questions about the GR draft. #1 What would happen if a downstream neighbour of a restarting node sent a false RecoveryPath message, either accidentally or as a result of downstream node being subverted. #2 What damage could be done to the restarting node control/data plane as a result of such a bogus message? Adrian has pasted a long discussion thread on this to ccamp list. Trust model in ccamp is peer-to-peer; peers with whom messages are exchanged are authenticated. This isn't about attacks from strangers; it is about subverted RSVP-TE nodes. Adrian questions why this is of particular reference to GR? Surely any subverted node could take a variety of actions at any time in the protocol (for example, corrupting routes in path messages). Adrian also points out that RecoveryPath is verified against the dataplane on the restarting node. There was also a discussion about falsified EROs, and what the consequences might be. On the TE-Call draft there were issues about Notify messages which are end-to-end communication; a new concept? How are keys established with Notify recipients? Is Notify processing a necessary part of call processing? This leads to a question of whether an automated key distribution mechanism is required. Security of calls is definitely a concern, but again Notify processing is not specific to calls. Either RSVP-TE security or IPeec (if tunneling) can be used to authenticate origin of Notify messages. Can also use RSVP forwarding to propagate Notify messages hop-by-hop, which makes use of RSVP peer authentication as above. For the restart draft, the ADs are not really totally convinced, and would like ccamp to describe what could happen if each message was spoofed. This strikes Adrian as being a lot of work. For the call draft, an RFC 4107 analysis is asked for. Next step will be to have face-to-face discussions with ADs at this IETF to try to get these drafts moved forward, and to clarify the security framework so this does not happen to other drafts in future. Yakov Rechter at mic: Would it address GR concern if processing was restricted to a single service provider (implying same trust domain). Adrian doesn't see that the Security AD would be happy with this because he is talking about node subversion which could be in a domain. Yakov: Indeed, what would happen if all your routers were subverted? Adrian: I don't know. Lou: (commented about unreasonableness of feedback from ADs) Adrian: Yes, perhaps ADs will say 'all of your work is broken, stop'. Lou: Come on, there's history and deployed protocols here. ADs are welcome to say it's all broken, and there is a new work item to make a working protocol to address all this. We should push back very strongly, and not let this stop us from doing our work. Adrian: Thanks. Dimitri: Tried to clarify what the questions being answered were. Ross: I'm trying to figure out what I should actually say. I don't want to get shot. I have mixed feelings. When my laptop boots up, it says 'you might be infected'. Actually I know my laptop is infected. Routers might be too. It's not hard to infect routers; administrators use stupid passwords, you can configure routers to bring down the network. However, no vendor is going to implement the command 'please send wrong information on graceful restart'. The bottom line is that there's not a lot of reason for us to define something that no-one has any interest in buying. That's one view. Another view is that the internet isn't as secure as it should be. But if no-one builds it, there's no point the spec saying it. In the specific case of the restart work, Ross talked to a member of the security directorate. Perhaps we don't need to do anything about it, but the directorate would like to know what a router would do if it was subverted. Would the conflicting information be detected? We could try to figure out what an implementation would do if it got different information from downstream neighbours and put that in the draft. That might be enough for this draft, I hope. Zafar: I'm a little bit concerned about the notify message. There's something you mentioned about making it hop-by-hop, but this would be more like a PathErr message. Could you specify what you mean? Adrian: On notify, RFC 3473 specifies these two methods, and points out a way to do security is hop-by-hop. Zafar: Has concerns with this. Adrian: Yes, but these are tradeoffs you may need to make to get e2e security. Yakov Rechter: Wanted to respond to Ross's point about how things only get implemented if people are prepared to pay for it. It's presumptious to say that 2 or 3 people in the IESG know what's good for everyone. The IETF needs to address this problem. Adrian: Watch this space. Ross and I will report back to the mailing list after we've held our side-meetings. Zafar: Every node does local checks it can do against the ERO. If every node does that (I think implementations do), much of the information passed by the neighbor is checked. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 1121 Adrain: Okay, if we're done then perhaps this is a good time for folks interested in MEF to gather at the front and talk about it. We're done, see you tomorrow. *********************************************************** ------_=_NextPart_001_01C77145.11C00D09 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here's = the minutes=20 of the first session, much thanks to to the great notes of David = McWalter and=20 Lyndon Ong. Please check them, comment on missing items or corrections, = and=20 start to work on the items identified.
Thanks,
Deborah and=20 Adrian
----------------------------------------------= -----------------
 
Sixty-eighth IETF, Prague, March 2007

Monday, March 19, 2007
0900-1130 Morning Session I
RTG    ccamp    Common Control and Measurement Plane WG

CCAMP Working Group Minutes, Session 1 of 2
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CHAIRS: Adrian Farrel 
        Deborah Brungard 

Note takers: David McWalter, Lyndon Ong

Adrian opened, gave Note Well, noted that ccamp will meet *twice* in
Prague.
These minutes cover the Monday am meeting.
Second meeting tomorrow, Tuesday 1pm.

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0. Administrivia (chairs) [5 mins: 5/150]
Slides 

Adrian asked for comments on agenda - none, for either session.
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1. WG status, RFCs, drafts, milestones (chairs) [10, 15/150]
Slides 

--0905 Adrian gave draft status.  Plenty of work, progressing well.
       6 new RFCs, 4 in editor queue, plus Crankback draft has just been
       sent to the RFC editor.
       Two drafts (rsvp-te-call and rsvp-restart-ext) are tied up in
       IESG review, both on security questions.
       3 drafts in WGLC.
       gmpls-addressing and te-node-cap are ready for last call (Adrian
       believes the latter is already implemented and deployed).
       ethernet-traffic-parameters seems to be stable
       10 more on today's agenda, 4 in pipeline.

Dimitri at mic: commented that some discussion was ongoing as a result
       of OIF liaison.  Adrian suggested closing with Lyndon offline,
       Deborah commented that we could close this in tomorrow's meeting.

--0911 Deborah presented an update on draft-andersson-rtg-gmpls-change,
       which has just been approved as a BCP.
       Adrian noted that this commits ccamp to do work sometimes.  The
       idea is that it encourages other SDOs to bring work to ccamp.

       Deborah went through charter milestones.  We're 'only just
       behind'.

--0913 Adrian recapped GELs progress.  This will make up the first 30
       minutes of tomorrow's agenda.  GMPLS enhancements are required,
       and will happen in ccamp.  Dataplane enhancements will not happen
       at the IETF.  Adrian will discuss possible charter changes with
       Ross and Dave (new AD). ccamp will only work on a control plane
       for a clearly specified dataplane.  IEEE is just starting work on
       this under the heading 802.1Qay, also known as PBBTE.  Adrian
       said that because a dataplane specification is *forthcoming*, it
       is okay to start control plane work now ('pipeline' it).
Dimitri at mic sought to clarify.  Adrian replied that there is work
       that can happen now in advance of definition of label format, for
       example the traffic parameters we have already started on.
Dimitri at mic also asked about scope of work.  Adrian replied that we
       should look at things that break 3945 on a case-by-case basis.
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2. ITU-T and OIF progress report (Lyndon) [10, 25/150]
Slides 

Note: Discussion of responses to recent ITU-T and OIF liaisons
will fall in the second CCAMP meeting on Tuesday afternoon.

--0917 Lyndon presented ITU-T and OIF liaison.
       Lyndon was not at the ITU-T meeting a month ago, but has talked
       to the chair and quickly summarized the SG15 Q.14 work ongoing.
       Two liaisons:
       #1  Response to CCAMP reply on ASON, including requests for more
           information, some language concerns, and a clarifying point
           about call/connection separation.  There was also a concern
           about use of liaisons versus use of individual participation.
           ITU felt that liason communicated group concensus and was
           valuable.
Monique asked about about overlap SG13 Q5, which also deals with T-MPLS
           management.  Lyndon wasn't familiar with this, but took an
           action to look at this.
       #2  Requested to review the GMPLS call draft and VCAT/LCAS drafts
           before they get to RFC.

--0925 Lyndon summarized OIF status.  E-NNI routing IA and UNI2.0 and
       E-NNI 2.0 signaling in progress.  Again, two liaisons.
       #1  VLAN ID, where OIF wants to carry many VLAN ID 'labels' as
           part of an RSVP signaling message.  OIF members accept that
           possibly this information isn't really part of a label.  The
           EVC is the connection, and perhaps the VLAN ID list is just
           an attribute of that collection.  Lyndon said OIF was open to
           looking at what was the best solution from a protocol
           standpoint.
       #2  OIF documents liaising current state of UNI 2.0 and E-NNI 2.0
           documents.  OIF will send an update when these documents are
           approved and stable.

Adrian said that there is time at the end of tomorrow's meeting to draft
       a liaison back to OIF.
Lyndon said that the VLAN ID issue is perhaps the priority.
Deborah encouraged folks who could not make tomorrow's meeting to get in
       touch with Lyndon.
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3. ASON Routing solutions (Dimitri) [10 35/150]
Slides 
Background reading
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt

--0929 Dimitri recapped on progress since IETF-67.  Dimitri stressed
       that there is no implied relationship in these documents between
       MLN and multi-level routing.  This is a problem for
       implementations. There is also a question of technology-specific
       extensions; these will go in separate documents.  The main
       document will stay generic. For bandwidth accounting, a single
       generic mechanism will be defined that will cover packet, lambda,
       etc.  If any more specific information is defined, then an
       extension document can be written.
       Also discussed resiliency and policy.  Dimitri sought to exclude
       some of these points, on the basis that this document is 'a
       protocol spec', but which would support extensions for specific
       technologies or additional functions/management.
       Next steps: ready for last call? what review process?
Adrian noted that there are questions that are not yet resolved that may
       require changes.  Partly by keeping ITU in the loop, partly by
       closing technical discussions.
Igor Bryskin at mic: asked about TE node identification using TE router
       IDs or routable addresses.  Dimitri replied that this document
       wishes to be as simple as possible, and referred to RFC 3630, and
       asked about the rationale for TE router IDs today.  This has been
       discussed on the list, perhaps a couple of years ago.  Dimitri
       stressed that this has been discussed and agreed, and is not a
       new suggestion.
Adrian asked if node IDs were guaranteed routable in the signaling plane
       Dimitri answered noting that they were an identification.
Adrian said he wasn't asking whether it should or should not be routable
       he's just trying to understand.  Dmitri replied they could be.
Adrian asked if a summary would be that the node ID doesn't need to be
       routable, but a wise implementation would make it routable?
Dimitri discussed that it may or may not be by 3630.
Igor said he had expected a shorter answer from Dimitri, and raised an
       objection to the case where router IDs were not routable.
       Discussion between Igor and Dimitri continued.
       Summarizing: Igor asserts that the router ID should be a
       routable IP address.  Dimitri says this is just one
       interpretation of RFC 3630, and other interpretations are
       possible; this is nothing new and it's nothing new that this
       draft is introducing.
Igor asked 'how do you force it [TE node ID] to be routable?'
       Dimitri replied by again referring to RFC 3630.

--0948 Adrian closed by suggesting that a clarification section needs
       adding to the draft, to answer Igor's concern.  Dimitri took an
       action to do this and bounce it off Igor.
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4. VCAT/LCAS (Adrian) [15, 50/150]
  - Analysis of requirements
  - First proposal for solutions
Slides 
Background reading
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt

--0949 Adrian said that for some reason that is not entirely clear to
       him, he gets to present this draft.  This has been taken on as
       a working group draft.  Notes, there has been a long ad hoc
       mailing list discussion on-going. Greg Bernstein is the main
       editor, but he could not make it to this meeting.  Also there is
       a revision to the draft needed, but this didn't quite happen
       before this meeting.  (Adrian will hit people if there is not a
       new revision soon).
       Requirements are stable, and the people listed in the foils are
       in agreement on this, so should make progress.  CCAMP will need
       to liaise this work to ITU and OIF as it progresses.
       To summarize requirements; allow TDM LSPs to be signaled to
       support virual concatenation. RFC 4606 allows this, but then all
       members of VCG are co-routed.  Now hardware allows VCG components
       to follow different paths.  Need to associate LSPs to form a
       single group, with defined capabilities.  Need a pool of 'spare'
       LSPs that can be added to VCGs at short notice.  Determine ports/
       interfaces at egress that can support VCGs, which is dependent on
       hardware capabilities.
       There are two options for associating LSPs.  Can either use the
       association object (used for e2e), or using a GMPLS call.  The
       latter is favoured, because only the endpoints care about the
       association.  The VCG properties become call parameters, which
       works quite nicely.  The problem that arises is management of the
       spare pool.   It is suggested that this function requires LCAS in
       order to work.
       Determination of endpoint capabilities feels like a routing
       function, but doesn't scale well.  So perhaps only basic node and
       link properties should be advertised via routing, with other
       properties negotiated as part of call setup.
Lyndon at mic commented that the OIF has discussed this recently, and
       that there is a developing view in ITU that the dataplane looks
       like a layer built on SONET/SDH or STM.  Does this mean that a
       separate signaling or routing layer is needed?  This is confusing
       people a lot, because it adds flexibility but also overhead.
Deborah asked Lyndon if Q14 or Q11 was developing this view of layering.
       Lyndon replied that he knows about Q14 but is not sure about Q11.
       It's coming out of a G805 idea that VCAT is a layer on its own.
Adrian commented that LCAS is perhaps a separate layer, so VCG is really
       a client layer, which requests that LSPs are set up, co-ordinated
       and delivered to it as a service.  So all that we have talked
       about is within a layer, but with something above it that says
       'I want VCAT'.
Adrian asked whether we should liaise with Q11 as well as Q14.  Lyndon
       was unsure but agreed.
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5. Multi-Layer Networks (Kohei) [10, 60/150]
  - Strategy and plans to complete this work
Slides 
Background reading
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-reqs-02.txt
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-eval-02.txt
  - draft-papadimitriou-ccamp-gmpls-mrn-extensions-03.txt

--1001 Kohei presented the MLN document set.
       Protocol extensions being defined; for example IACD (Internal
       Adaptation Capabilities Descriptor) TLV added to IGPs.
       There are two approaches to Virtual TE links at present.
       (i) Soft FA, which is a signaled LSP not established in the
           dataplane, and
       (ii) remote association, where LSPs are not signaled, but
            properties are exchanged between FA endpoint.
       These have different pros and cons. Comments have been received
       about Path diversity and SRLG inheritance. Kohei feels no
       protocol extensions are required, but that this is an issue for
       the management plane.  Comments have also been received about
       directionality-ambiguity in adaptation information, but Kohei
       felt there was no ambiguity.
       Next steps are that the -reqs and -eval documents are close to
       WGLC.
       The solution doc is proposed as a WG document.
Adrian is pleased to see this work proceeding again after a period of
       silence. Adrian said chairs should look at the documents to
       ensure they're ready for WGLC, and perhaps liaise them to ITU
       immediately (as they've expressed an interest), and this should
       allow them to respond in time for the end of last call.  The
       timescales for the requirements drafts look about right.  We'll
       poll the mailing list about adoption of the solutions draft after
       this meeting.
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6. MIB Module for GMPLS TE Database (Kenichi) [10, 70/150]
Slides 
Background reading
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt

--1009 Kenichi said that Tomohiro Otani could not attend.
       Originally this draft was created as an extension of OSPF MIBs
       for TE, but is being generalized to include both OSPF and IS-IS.
       Recent changes to this MIB module generalize OSPF-specific
       objects, and renames several objects.
Adrian encouraged input from people who are going to implement and use
       this.
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7. OAM Requirements for GMPLS Networks (Kenichi) [10, 80/150]
Slides 
Background reading
  - draft-nadeau-ccamp-gmpls-oam-requirements-01.txt

--1014 Kenichi also presented this, as Tomohiro Otani is not here.  He
       explained how this responds to the WG charter item.  It is also
       an issue that there is no definition of GMPLS OAM requirements
       beyond the RFC4377 MPLS requirements.  Kenichi summarized a set
       of possible GMPLS OAM requirements (see slides).
Loa Andersson (MPLS chair) at mic asked about relationship to MPLS OAM
       requirements; is a revision of the MPLS requirements document
       proposed?
Adrian would not want to see anything that replaced or revised the MPLS
       work; would prefer a new document that pointed at the MPLS work
       and stated what was relevant and how they were extended.
Loa Andersson: okay
Dimitri asked a long question about control plane properties, and
       whether there was synchronous access to what it was transporting,
       and whether there were different requirements for circuit versus
       packet, and we should be clear about scope for the future.
Adrian: I don't know.  We should not be specifying Ethernet OAM; it is
       not our business.  But maybe there are questions of co-ordination
       of OAM (for example between different layers) that we could help
       with.  Control plane OAM is clearly ours.  Adrian is struggling
       with this work, and is not clear what there is that should be
       done; Adrian is hopeful that this document will cystalize issues,
       and discussion on the list should make it clear whether there is
       really some work here.
Dimitri worried that we shouldn't put too many purposes together into a
       single document.
Adrian: Good advice.
Don Fedyk agreed with Dimitri.  When it says 'requirements', you need to
       have a technology in mind.  It's good to have a list that says
       what OAM needs to do, but how this is satisfied depends on the
       technology.
Adrian agreed.
Dimitri doesn't want to see overloading of the GMPLS control plane.
Deborah: Suggests look at the document; question of whether GMPLS will
       provide OAM for the dataplane is reviewed by the document; take a
       look at it.
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8. Conversion between Permanent Connections and Switched Connections =
(Diego) [10, 90/150]
Slides 
Background reading
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-pc-and-sc-reqs-00.txt

--1024 Diego: No comments received on the requirements ID since made a
       WG item. For caviglia solution draft, have received some comments
       from Dimitri on the list.  Main problems are with failure
       scenarios during handover, to be solved in a draft update after
       this IETF.
Adrian: We want to see that update, and then decide whether this is the
       solution we want for this problem space.  Any questions? .
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9. Multiple Nodes Graceful Restart (Dan) [10, 100/150]
Slides 
Background reading
  - draft-li-ccamp-multinodes-gr-proc-01.txt

--1028 Dan: Summarized changes to draft since -00.  Note that this draft
       now targets Informational status.  Draft is stable, seeks WG
       acceptance.
Adrian: When we were discussing the previous version, there were
       questions of whether this was needed at all.  But there was a
       feeling that it would help people understand GR, and prevent
       needless development of protocol extensions already supported by
       GR.  Show of hands; who would find this helpful? (6 or 7).  Any
       objections (0).
Lou Berger (at back mic) said the document still implies it is more than
       just an informational clarification.  Document needs to be
       consistent with the proposal that no new procedures are defined.
       This is just an educational document, not a BCP.
Adrian: Understand.  We'll discuss on the list.
Ina at mic: I haven't heard any requirement for this work from
       providers.
Adrian: Agree, it would be good to have providers commenting.
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10. Graceful Shutdown (Zafar) [10, 110/150]
Slides 
Background reading
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt

--1035 Zafar Presented some protocol details that have been discussed:
       One comment on the list was with respect to how to get out of
       graceful shutdown state so traffic can be moved to alternate
       path.  Both MBB and FRR segment recovery have been suggested.
       This has been addressed by saying that PathError must be
       propagated to Ingress, but branch nodes can make local decisions
       about applying FRR.
       Another comment about shutdown of stitched LSPs, which are
       signaled as distinct LSPs in the control plane.  The document has
       been updated with a solution about these and for the case of
       bundled links.
       Finally, overloading error code from RFC 4736, which requires
       LSPs to do re-optimization on receipt of certain error codes.
       This draft relies on optimization at ingress, but extends this
       handling to other branch nodes on the path.  Wording is difficult
       here; anyone with objections should let authors know.
       Next steps, need to address a nit.
Adrian: What is this nit? Zafar: just need to clarify a sentence about
       how something or other applies to a link.
Adrian: Okay, just need to address this in next revision and then will
       be ready for last call.
Adrian: Do we know of any implementations?  Zaar: No.  Adrian: Okay,
       I'll ask on the list and people can reply in private if they need
       to.
Zafar: Thank-you.
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11. MPLS/GMPLS Security Discussions
11a. MPLS/GMPLS Security Framework (Luyuan) [15, 125/150]
     Slides 
     Background reading
       - draft-fang-mpls-gmpls-security-framework-00.txt

--1042 Luyuan: There is a large design team for this work (see 1st =
slide).
     We presented this in IETF-67, and called for interest.  The design
     team then formed.  -00 draft was issued before this meeting.  Will
     be presented at both MPLS and CCAMP.  Why did we start a security
     framework at this point, given what has been done in MPLS already?
     The trigger was that the security ADs and reviewers had questioned
     some GMPLS drafts, and wondered whether GMPLS security had been
     adequately addressed in the past.
     Questions started with p2mp, but then went back to TE and
     fundamental parts of GMPLS.  Ross and others asked for a single
     draft to discuss all MPLS/GMPLS security issues.  Any other drafts
     in MPLS/GMPLS should point to this draft as the general framework.
     Protocol extensions with their own security concerns must address
     them themselves.
     Objective is to make this an informational RFC as quickly as
     possible. Will address security implementation implications for
     several protocols, including LDP, RSVP-TE, PCE, P2MP/LDP, VPNs,
     PWs, inter-provider, etc. Scope is broader than core just GMPLS.
     However, general security concerns will not be addressed (will
     reference existing security drafts).
     Luyuan then outlined the content of the -00 draft.
Adrian: I'm really impressed with the quantity and quality of work that
     has gone into this draft in a short time.
Luyuan: Thanks, it was a team effort.
Dimitri: Wondered about duplication of work between this an rpsec/sidr.
Luyuan: Scope is a little bit fuzzy. Some content will touch on routing
     protocols but this is not the focus.
Dimitri: Further question about assuming modes of operation; should the
     draft state the modes of operation under which the network is
     assumed to run.
Luyuan: Again, scope is difficult. Document looks to demonstrate that
     with proper procedure adding MPLS/GMPLS to a network does not make
     it less secure.
Dimitri: Again sought to clarify which 'running mechanisms' were being
     employed in particular deployments being considered by this
     security draft.
Luyuan/Dimitri closed agreeably.

Adrian: Asked George if this work would be owned by the MPLS WG.
George Swallow: That's my understanding, but Ross can overrule me.
Adrian: He wouldn't dare.
Loa: Agree with George.
Ross: Has no opinion on whether this is MPLS/CCAMP.  Can last call it in
     both. No strong opinion, but tend to prefer MPLS unless others
     object.
Kireeti: Should be owned by MPLS, because some bits are MPLS-specific.
Adrian is happy that someone else is doing the work.
Adrian: Asked Monique about whether this overlaps with work done by
     IPSphere.
Monique (from floor): No.

11b. Security AD issues with TE Calls (Adrian) [10, 135/150]
     Slides 
     Background reading
       - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-04.txt

11c. Security AD issues with Graceful Restart (Adrian) [10, 145/150]
     Slides 
     Background reading
     - draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-restart-ext-08.txt

-1058 Adrian: To close, want to look at two drafts going through
     security AD review, related to what Luyuan has just presented.
     There are two major questions about the GR draft.
     #1  What would happen if a downstream neighbour of a restarting
         node sent a false RecoveryPath message, either accidentally or
         as a result of downstream node being subverted.
     #2  What damage could be done to the restarting node control/data
         plane as a result of such a bogus message?
     Adrian has pasted a long discussion thread on this to ccamp list.
     Trust model in ccamp is peer-to-peer; peers with whom messages are
     exchanged are authenticated.  This isn't about attacks from
     strangers; it is about subverted RSVP-TE nodes.  Adrian questions
     why this is of particular reference to GR?  Surely any subverted
     node could take a variety of actions at any time in the protocol
     (for example, corrupting routes in path messages).  Adrian also
     points out that RecoveryPath is verified against the dataplane on
     the restarting node.  There was also a discussion about falsified
     EROs, and what the consequences might be.

     On the TE-Call draft there were issues about Notify messages which
     are end-to-end communication; a new concept?  How are keys
     established with Notify recipients?  Is Notify processing a
     necessary part of call processing?  This leads to a question of
     whether an automated key distribution mechanism is required.
     Security of calls is definitely a concern, but again Notify
     processing is not specific to calls.  Either RSVP-TE security or
     IPeec (if tunneling) can be used to authenticate origin of Notify
     messages.  Can also use RSVP forwarding to propagate Notify
     messages hop-by-hop, which makes use of RSVP peer authentication as
     above.

     For the restart draft, the ADs are not really totally convinced,
     and would like ccamp to describe what could happen if each message
     was spoofed.  This strikes Adrian as being a lot of work.

     For the call draft, an RFC 4107 analysis is asked for.

     Next step will be to have face-to-face discussions with ADs at this
     IETF to try to get these drafts moved forward, and to clarify the
     security framework so this does not happen to other drafts in
     future.

Yakov Rechter at mic: Would it address GR concern if processing was
     restricted to a single service provider (implying same trust
     domain).  Adrian doesn't see that the Security AD would be happy
     with this because he is talking about node subversion which could
     be in a domain.
Yakov: Indeed, what would happen if all your routers were subverted?
Adrian: I don't know.

Lou: (commented about unreasonableness of feedback from ADs)
Adrian: Yes, perhaps ADs will say 'all of your work is broken, stop'.
Lou: Come on, there's history and deployed protocols here.  ADs are
     welcome to say it's all broken, and there is a new work item to
     make a working protocol to address all this.  We should push back
     very strongly, and not let this stop us from doing our work.
Adrian: Thanks.

Dimitri: Tried to clarify what the questions being answered were.

Ross: I'm trying to figure out what I should actually say.  I don't want
     to get shot.  I have mixed feelings.  When my laptop boots up, it
     says 'you might be infected'.  Actually I know my laptop is
     infected.  Routers might be too.  It's not hard to infect routers;
     administrators use stupid passwords, you can configure routers to
     bring down the network.  However, no vendor is going to implement
     the command 'please send wrong information on graceful restart'.
     The bottom line is that there's not a lot of reason for us to
     define something that no-one has any interest in buying.  That's
     one view.
     Another view is that the internet isn't as secure as it should be.
     But if no-one builds it, there's no point the spec saying it.  In
     the specific case of the restart work, Ross talked to a member of
     the security directorate.  Perhaps we don't need to do anything
     about it, but the directorate would like to know what a router
     would do if it was subverted. Would the conflicting information be
     detected?  We could try to figure out what an implementation would
     do if it got different information from downstream neighbours and
     put that in the draft.  That might be enough for this draft, I
     hope.

Zafar: I'm a little bit concerned about the notify message.  There's
     something you mentioned about making it hop-by-hop, but this would
     be more like a PathErr message.  Could you specify what you mean?
Adrian: On notify, RFC 3473 specifies these two methods, and points out
     a way to do security is hop-by-hop.
Zafar: Has concerns with this.
Adrian: Yes, but these are tradeoffs you may need to make to get e2e
     security.

Yakov Rechter: Wanted to respond to Ross's point about how things only
     get implemented if people are prepared to pay for it.  It's
     presumptious to say that 2 or 3 people in the IESG know what's good
     for everyone.  The IETF needs to address this problem.

Adrian: Watch this space.  Ross and I will report back to the mailing
     list after we've held our side-meetings.

Zafar: Every node does local checks it can do against the ERO.  If every
     node does that (I think implementations do), much of the
     information passed by the neighbor is checked.


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1121 Adrain: Okay, if we're done then perhaps this is a good time for
     folks interested in MEF to gather at the front and talk about it.

     We're done, see you tomorrow.

***********************************************************
------_=_NextPart_001_01C77145.11C00D09-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Wed Mar 28 15:33:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWdtp-0000P8-6x for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:33:37 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWdth-0006xc-Ed for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:33:37 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWdnd-0001t5-56 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:27:13 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.141] (helo=heisenberg.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWdnW-0001sZ-Tu for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:27:08 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by heisenberg.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HWdnV-0003s6-NC for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:27:05 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.163] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:27:04 +0100 Message-ID: <0da801c7716f$0f071760$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ross Callon" , "Dave Ward" , "Scott Bradner" Subject: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:26:49 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Mar 2007 19:27:04.0776 (UTC) FILETIME=[113B5C80:01C7716F] X-Originating-Heisenberg-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Hi, Here is the second draft liaison to go to ITU-T SG15. Again, comments by end of 3rd April, please. (Plenty more to follow, but we will try to turn them out a few at a time.) Thanks, Adrian and Deborah === To: ITU-T SG15 From: IETF CCAMP Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward Subject: VCAT/LCAS Work in CCAMP For Comment Deadline: 25th June 2007 The CCAMP working group thanks you for your liaison "Liaison Statement to CCAMP regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" dated March 2007. We are not sure that the Internet-Draft draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt does use mechanisms defined by ITU-T SG 15 in Recommendations G.7041 and G.7042. We believe that the intention is to enable the use of such mechanisms in a GMPLS network Nevertheless, we note your interest in this work and would welcome your comments especially with respect to the applicability of this work to an ASON network. The current published version of this work can be found at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt. Please note, however, that a new version of this draft is currently being prepared by the authors that makes extensive changes to the published material. Therefore, while we would welcome your comments, we suggest that you do not invest heavily in a detailed review at this stage. We will liaise future versions of this Internet-Draft to you as they become available. Best regards, Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Wed Mar 28 15:35:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWdvn-0000pH-Cx for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:35:39 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWdvl-0007Fl-1g for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:35:39 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWdju-0001cp-B6 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:23:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.140] (helo=pythagoras.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWdjq-0001cV-9P for Ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:23:20 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by pythagoras.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HWdjp-0004MQ-1W for Ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:23:17 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.163] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:23:15 +0100 Message-ID: <0d9901c7716e$8529f850$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ross Callon" , "Dave Ward" , "Scott Bradner" Subject: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG15 : MLN work Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:22:56 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Mar 2007 19:23:15.0682 (UTC) FILETIME=[88AE6420:01C7716E] X-Originating-Pythagoras-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Hi, Here is the first of a series of proposed liaisons to ITU-T Study Group 15. Please comment by end of business 3rd April. Thanks, Adrian and Deborah ==== To: ITU-T SG15 Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward Subject: Multi-Layer Networking (MLN) Work in CCAMP For Action Deadline: 18th May 2007 The CCAMP working group notes your request to review its work on Multi-Layer Networking (MLN) as indicated in your liaison "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" dated March 2007. We are nearing completion of our analysis of the requirements for MLN, and our evaluation of existing protocols, so now is an appropriate time for you review this material, and we would be grateful for your comments on or before the deadline marked above. The requirements work can be found at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-reqs-02.txt The protocol evaluation is at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-eval-02.txt In your review of this material, it may be helpful to pay particular care to understand the definition of MLN that is used. It may also be helpful to use some of the terminology interpretation presented in RFC4397. The CCAMP working group also anticipates working on protocol extensions to fill the lacunae identified by the protocol evaluation Internet-Draft. An individual submission on this subject may be found at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-papadimitriou-ccamp-gmpls-mrn-extensions-03.txt, but the working group has yet to make a decision about whether to accept this as the basis for the work. Best regards, Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Wed Mar 28 16:34:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWeLy-0005j4-Ud for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 16:02:43 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWeKs-00029g-0D for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 16:02:42 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWeDG-0003mS-W8 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:53:43 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [216.82.241.195] (helo=mail121.messagelabs.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWeD5-0003kU-M4 for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:53:39 +0000 X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: dbrungard@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-14.tower-121.messagelabs.com!1175111604!11599919!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.10.7.1; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [134.24.146.4] Received: (qmail 11177 invoked from network); 28 Mar 2007 19:53:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO attrh9i.attrh.att.com) (134.24.146.4) by server-14.tower-121.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 28 Mar 2007 19:53:24 -0000 Received: from attrh.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by attrh9i.attrh.att.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l2SJrGp6013704 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:53:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com (ocst07.ugd.att.com [135.38.164.12]) by attrh9i.attrh.att.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l2SJr7DQ013550 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:53:10 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C77172.ACFFD779" Subject: Draft minutes - Session II Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:52:53 -0500 Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DE4F342@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Draft minutes - Session II Thread-Index: Acdxcqx8wpWu6N5DTrymWL2znGo4cw== From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" To: Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f3d7fb2a0d447735ba6cf7b00ace0bfe This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C77172.ACFFD779 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's the minutes of the second session, much thanks to the great notes of Giles Heron, Julien Meuric, and Tomonori Takeda. Please check them, comment on missing items or corrections, and start to work on the items identified (e.g. liaisons). =20 Thanks, Deborah and Adrian =20 -------------------------------- =20 Sixty-eight IETF, Prague, March 2007 Tuesday, March 20, 2007 1300-1500 Afternoon Session I RTG ccamp Common Control and Measurement Plane WG CCAMP Working Group Agenda Session II =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D CHAIRS: Adrian Farrel=20 Deborah Brungard=20 Note takers: Giles Heron, Julien Meuric, Tomonori Takeda =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D 0. Administrivia (chairs) [5, 5/120] Slides =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D Agenda agreed. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 1. Control plane requirements for GELS (Loa and Don) [30, 35/120] Slides Background reading - draft-andersson-gels-exp-rsvp-te-01.txt - draft-fedyk-gmpls-ethernet-pbb-te-00.txt =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Don - Fedyk draft (PBB-TE) is rev of PBT draft. Tracking IEEE work on data plane. Project will be approved imminently in IEEE. Done in appendix as data plane is IEEE-defined. IETF just defining how to use GMPLS for control. Loa - Andersson draft (GELS-EXP-RSVP-TE) is updated post comments. Not just doc of an experimental implentation (not impl. this version yet). Use GMPLS for "all" modes of connection types (where "all" is P2P - not using yet for P2MP though have soln). Variance with Fedyk is have more than one label type. Don - GELS concluded that needed IEEE data plane. IEEE doing 802.1Qay. IEEE projects are rolled up into larger specs - so Qay will be rolled up into Q spec. Loa - Acreo did 802.1Q-based implementation. Describes certain conditions that we operate under. Works for 802.1Q. Don - trying to define superset that will work for other defined switching paradigms. Don - presented "Conventional Ethernet Bridging" and then "Configured Ethernet Bridging" where STP is removed and configure connections instead. So now have data plane and management plane. Finally GELS - where GMPLS is used to add back the missing control plane... Loa - I looked at Don's pictures and didn't understand them until I slept on it! Don - there is a std for partitioning the VLAN space as part of existing project on shortest path bridging... So will be an official way to do it. Dimitri - when I looked at your "triangle" diagrams. Issue is we have some 802.1 impacts. Cross-correlation in terms of what you can do even if you segment the VLAN space. That will be the major points in terms of getting this accepted by IEEE. Loa - yes, agree is important to record interactions. But what has happened to me repeatedly is that when I come up with a problem and tell the IEEE guys they tell me there's an ongoing project that will fix the problem... that also needs to be part of documentation... Don - diagram where remove CP dependencies is part of an IEEE project... Don - back to GELS motives. Dave Allen has draft on PW interworking with PBT. Loa - we have draft using MPLS with some G-MPLS extensions on top of L2 Ethernet and optical L1. Takes about an hour to learn to configure all 3 layers. If you want to run different layers in "augmented" mode where can request services from lower layers you have good automatic support here with GMPLS. Don - We separated components so could e.g. use management plane with signalling. So limited IP control plane for signalling. Loa - need to be careful not to get packet forwarding through the control plane! Don - LMP is like a superset of 802.1AB link management. So can leverage AB and use LMP. Stewart - did I hear "sending control plane traffic through the data plane"? Loa - no the reverse. Stewart - well we mix the two all the time in the IP world Loa - CP is not dimensioned here to handle data plane traffic. If you don't get costs on links you'll advertise the CP links into the data plane. Adrian - issue is that is bad to send data traffic down control " channel", not control "plane" Kireeti - issue here is that GMPLS is out-of-band, MPLS is in-band CP. Zafar - how do you solve this? In GMPLS we normally have completely separated CP network and data network. So no way data can get into control network. Loa - problem here is how do you define "completely different". Is totally separated in that no other IP connectivity between Ethernet LSRS than control plane but rides on same wavelengths etc. Adrian - could use one fibre for control and one for data? Alternative seems to be to implement the LSRs correctly so they don't forward data on control channel. Loa - so this is the issue of vendors' routers + inexperience setting up IP networks. Dimitri - problem here is that always left flexibility as to how to route the IP traffic. Not been work in CCAMP since inception. Something unintelligable... Loa - model we used for other data planes works quite well... Don - GELS axioms. Some discussion on list on asymmetric b/w reservation. Idea is to fully exploit what Ethernet data plane can do - hence choice of VID configuration or VID+MAC configuration... Dimitri - PBB-TE being done in IEEE. Not speaking about labels in IEEE? Don - yes, don't call things "labels" in IEEE. Dimitri - we know IEEE will speak of bridging. Are we forward looking about what IEEE will do? Don - we took details of what IEEE is doing out, partly because is not an official project yet. Adrian - assumption is that if we go back to IEEE and say we've started on a CP to control this sort of switching and they say "no", then we'll stop. Dimitri - if PBB-TE is bridging with TE then doesn't it mean this sort of config is acceptable for bridging. Loa - yes you can do this from a management station. Loa - ATM forum talked about ATM headers. It was only in IETF that we talked about ATM labels. Dimitri - we know PBB is operating. We don't know about PBB-TE at this point. Would like more info on how their initial framework is detailed. Dave - given that PBB and PBB-TE can work together we won't alter the semantics of MAC addresses. Don - pretty far along. Point is taken that we're not defining a data plane here but are using a defined one. Loa - we know how .1Q, .1ad, .1ah etc. work. Will be amendments to .1Q. If we expect something new to turn up we have to consider that now. But according to IEEE credo all new standards will be backwards-compatible. Dimitri - are we relying on backwards-compatibility of bridging to make these steps now? Don - yes. Don - (Types of LSPs). Been looking at P2P and P2MP in our draft. Loa can talk to the other aspects. Terminology differences. Loa - there is shared forwarding in .1Q. Rely on source address to have an identity that is extended to exactly where things are going. In our mindset we drop the source address (not sure is right thing to do). So then have a MP2P LSP. Is largely overlapping with what Don talks about as P2P. We have done experiments on MP2MP LSP. Standard IEEE VLAN. Same VLAN configured on multiple ports and turn on learning/STP etc. once set up. But basically a standard VLAN. Possible to configure it pretty quickly with scripts etc. (as need to reset testbed several times a day). Igor - my understanding of PBB is single source. Loa - not implemented PBT. What I've done is .1Q plus a couple of deltas we find in most switches. Igor - so don't require single source for the connection... Loa - only use VLAN ID and dest address to point to an LSP. George - When you say .1Q do you mean .1ad Provider Bridges? Are you doing QinQ? Loa - no. Just using one Q tag. Though the next step is QinQ. Behaves the same way as the start of an MPLS tunnel. Set it up and put traffic in. Kireeti - what signalling do you use for MP2P and MP2MP LSPs? Signalling or provisioning? Loa - All signalled except MP2MP (which is set up with a script - mgmt plane). Kireeti - so what signalling do you use for MP2P? Do you swap VLANs? Loa - no, same VLAN through LSP. That's one of the differences with what we did earlier. Don - changes we need in Gen label request for Ethernet. Dimitri - Quesiton on MP2P techniques. Is Loa's implemantation compatible with Don's? Loa - need to compare and clarify. We can do P2P with MAC and dest addr and then allow or not allow merging. Need to sort out terminology for shared forwarding. Don - our view of MP2P is shared forwarding. Two independent LSPs that share the same label at the merge point. No difference signalling-wise if they don't share the label. Kireeti - so basically MP2P LSP is multiple P2P LSPs that happen to share the last few hops. Igor - is MP2P same as N x P2P which merge at same destination. Don - "shared forwarding" is two individual LSPs sharing same tail-end label. George - do all sources use same dest address? And how do you avoid paths that criss-cross? Loa - criss-cross can be solved in routing protocol. Once you merge you merge. George - so not sending explicit path in RSVP message. Loa - send explicit path to merge point, but once resolve is same as an existing path we allow you to merge onto it unless we set that you can't do it. Adrian - George and I need to work on this. MP2P-TE needs to be solved in a generalised way for MPLS, GMPLS and GELS. George - this sounds a little non-standard as compared to what RSVP-TE does at the moment. Loa - I admit to that. George - so you have full ERO and then if you hit a merge point and merge is allowed then you merge? Loa - yes. And don't have b/w reservations. If TSPEC is the same can merge. Don - shared forwarding is a limited version of merging. No merging of b/w etc. More definition required around this term in the documentation. Loa - what you can accuse me of is using RSVP-TE in an LDP fashion. We admit this is not standard. We are building our experimental platform. If what we do is good then fine, of not will change it... Loa - this slide (Gen Label Request) is additions, not changes. Don - using Dimitri's T-spec as a good starting point. Don - 2 diags stolen from Dave Allen as to where this is applicable: 1) PBB net with edge and core bridges offering a native Ethernet VLAN over the top. Looks like VPLS but is all native Ethernet. 2) case like a PW for aggregation. Loa - my comparible picture shows network from "above" and "the side". Yellow part is GELS. So have MPLS over GELS over X? X !=3D = optical switches in this testbed. Igor - you said GELS could help for optical networks. Loa - was a bit more careful than that. When we get people into our network we want to do test incorporation. Want to help people understand the idea. The operational paradigms of the layers are very close. If you want inter-layer signalling that works over UNI. Igor - so in your opinion the CP similarity helps integration. Loa - yes, helps operational side at least. Igor - so people need to learn less? If familiar with optical CP can learn Ethernet CP? Igor - you also said GELS helped interwork configured Ethernet with MPLS. What did you mean? I read it as it helps by removing MPLS. Is that correct? Don - is interfacing Ethernet MAN to an MPLS network. Igor - I don't see MPLS here. Don - is in the WAN. Dimitri - Where does the LSP start and finish in these diagrams? Is it an S-PVC mode or an SVC mode. Loa - in our network Ethernet LSP starts at Ethernet I/F of the IP router. Optical LSP starts on Optical interface of Ethenret switch. Dimitri - is is always a switched mode from access to S-PE? Don - in this case would have a PW that could be terminated or stitched. You can always choose to terminate and then ? Dimitri - this is one of the limitations in UNI deployments today. Do we gain something by only having a switched mode that goes router to router, or do we need a mode that goes edge to edge. So from ingress PE to egress PE that doesn't impact the IP routers (S-PVC mode rather than SVC mode). When I look at usage of GMPLS we may need to consider both modes. Adrian - don't see anything in protocol that prohibits either mode. If something shows up then should flag it as we need to keep both modes available. Dimitri - asking other way round. If we only have switched mode then can only deploy GMPLS on nodes that today aren't able to do it. I'm stating about our experience of deployment... That's a concern. Let's look at today's access nodes... Loa - I've kind of lost the Q? I suggest you write the Q down and put it on the list... Don - we don't need to add that much to GMPLS. Next step is to add a milestone for WG charter for experimental GELS spec (Loa's suggestion). Add milestone to develop a spec for GELS signalling/routing (combined suggestion). Adrian - at all future meets GELS will be at end of agenda and you can carry on in your own time. Think we're premature for milestone requests. Both of you can continue experimental work, but doesn't come into WG quite yet. Rules still apply as to how to bring stuff into WG. Consider yourselves lucky that you were allowed to present this. Rules say that if you believe you have an IEEE-conformant data plane then we liase to IEEE and say that we wish to control it, is that ok? Loa - brought 802.1Q. Adrian - just say "please" ;-) let's talk offline, I need to understand the dataplane we're liasing a request about... =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 2. ARP over GMPLS (Zafar) [10, 45/120] Slides Background reading - draft-ali-arp-over-gmpls-controlled-ethernet-psc-i-03.txt =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Zafar went over the slides, explaining changes and requesting to be a WG I-D. Suggest to use tunnel interface address for ARP request. Lou - Why is it different from other p-to-p link between routers? Zafar - This is ethernet, so need ARP. Lou - It exists without GMPLS, right? Is your solution applicable to those spaces? Zafar - We never have two addresses for the same physical address, this is what you see in GMPLS. Lou - The issue of p-to-p ethernet is new for some router vendors? Zafar - Typically we don't use unnumbered ethernet IF. The second point is that we typically don't use two addresses. Lou - The first point is just unnumbered ethernet, and some vendors don't understand it. Sounds like it is not CCAMP issue. Zafar - Why? We are using signaling. Lou - That is the second problem. Lou - The second problem sounds like GMPLS stuff. But it seems just a broken implementation. Zafar - It is unclear implementation. Lou - What category do you intend for this I-D? Zafar - BCP. Igor - Where does the optical LSP start and end? Zafar - Between routers. Igor - Where is the ethernet connection? Zafar - It is also netween routers Igor - What type of connection? Dimitri - Good point. You can carry anything over optical LSP, so need to be sure whether we want to say framing etc. Deborah - Good discussion. Igor raised a good question - is the connection optical or ethernet. Take it to the list. Adrian - (To Zafar) Please drive the discussion so we get progress before the next IETF. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3. Traffic Engineering Extensions to OSPF in support of inter-AS TE (Mach Chen) [10, 55/120] Slides Background reading - draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Mach went over the slides, explaining motivations and protocol extensions. Yakov - Overlap with OSPF auto-discovery in L1VPN. Encourage you to look at L1VPN WG. JP - You say this is mandatory for BRPC, please clarify in which case you may need it. Can you also make sure you do a cut and paste of the "not to do" slide into the draft. The draft is fine. Want to make sure that the draft tells us what we're not trying to do to prevent people coming up with silly ideas. Are you writing down in the document that not doing TE aggregation? Mach - Yes. Acee - Could you replace extensions to OSPF to extensions to OSPF-TE? Add OSPFv3 for refernece as well. This should be applicable to both, but need to define if that is the case. Also not sure I agree that it should be bundled with L1VPN autodiscovery. Stewart Bryant - The reason for ASs and BGP, etc, is for info hiding. Can we make sure that you are not feeding private information? Adrian - doesn't that follow from saying that don't share TE info outside AS? Stewart- Yes, but need to be v. strict... =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 4. Bidirectional LSPs with asymmetric bandwidth requirements (Attila) [10, 65/120] Slides Background reading - draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Attila went over the slides explaining motivations, options for achieving this, and futher works. Zafar - can you explain why you need both LSPs to follow the same route? Attila - in some scenarios is beneficial to do that for management and a couple of other issues. Zafar - think Q is back to requirements of draft. I think you need to spell out more on the application why you need same path. Julien - I agree that co-routed asymmetrical services is needed. But you may have missed possible scenario where you could associate bidirectional LSP at ingress. Lou - I think Zafar has a good point. Before we jump into implementation need to say that this is a needed service and that what we have today is not sufficient. We did bidirectional symmetric service because the transport network needed it. if we don't have such a transport network then what we have here may be sufficient. Attila - this extension is an optional optimisation. Not a requirement Lou - so need to enumerate the cases where it's useful and what the benefit is. Rowen Soloman - sometimes bundling 2 unidirectional LSPs and doing low level config of egress traffic management is complex. but want to see a relationship between this new object and CAC funtionality. When do you go to CAC to reserve b/w for the alternate direction? When is error sent if there's insufficient b/w. Attila - this is implementation Q. Rowen - would like to see recommendation. Igor - like to see whether we need such service. If have service that is symmetrical in all contexts except b/w then this might be reasonable. The reason for bidirectional LSP wasn't just driven by technology but also by benefits in setup time and recovery. Much easier to handle one bidirectional LSP than a combination of two LSPs. Attila - so summary is: do we have a strong use-case for this? Need mailing list discussion. Lucy - need to think about P2MP as an application. Dimitri - What is P2MP asymetric bidirectional LSP about? Lucy - Discuss offline. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 5. Data Channel Status using LMP (Dan) [10, 75/120] Slides Background reading - draft-li-ccamp-confirm-data-channel-status-01.txt =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Dan went over the slides, explaining changes and protocol extensions Adrian - We don't have many people doing LMP here, but two on this draft. Who in the room read this? -> 5 Any strong feeling against? None, but... Zafar - Raised some concern Dan - Have you read this I-D? Zafar - Some comments. Personally not sure about requirements. Not sure if the group has enough interest to solve this problem. Adrian- we do have to be sure we're solving a problem that needs solving. Just because vendors are on the draft doesn't mean they intend to implement and deploy. Would like feedback from carriers as to whether this is a real problem and whether they'd look to LMP to solve it. Diego - We have implemented LMP. This draft solves a real problem. Julien - Feel that this is an interesting issue to solve. This may be specific to transmission devices. Not really issue for packet networks. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 6. LSP Dynamical Provisioning Performance Metrics in GMPLS Networks (Guoying Zhang) [10, 85/120] Slides Background reading - draft-xie-ccamp-lsp-dppm-00.txt =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Guoying went over the slides, explaining motivations and open issues. Adrian - is this project alive, or complete? Is the draft + the research finished? Guoying - project is still going. Want to do work on e.g. multipoint LSPs and rerouting. Adrian - feedback you want from group is questions, also what else the group would like measured? Guoying - also whether the group thinks this is useful. Adrian - please comment/discuss on mic or on list. Zafar - why is graceful release delay important? Guoying - why graceful, or why release? Zafar - why is graceful release delay important? Guoying - release delay is important as both setup and release impact the application performance. if release is not good then won't meet requirements. So need to define performance for release. Only looking at graceful release here as forced release will cause problems anyway... Lucy - when you talk about control plane management, is that just signalling or also data plane setup? Guoying - only CP setup time today. Issues with control/data sync. hard to measure the sync. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 7. Transport Resource Management and Time-Based Bandwidth Services (Lucy Yong) [10, 95/120] Slides Background reading - draft-yong-ccamp-ason-gmpls-autobw-service-00 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Lucy went over the slides, explaining motivations and asking the group whether this is interesting. Dimitri - what shall we standardise here? Lucy - we need to have a CP that can handle reservation. Dimitri - is there something today that prevents you using this model? What do we need to standardise here (where we work on protocols)? Adrian - yes, we do protocols. In order to decide if we need a protocol we need to see what architecture we're trying to build. If we can solve the architecture with existing protocols then we're done. If we need new protocol then we need to do it (either in CCAMP or elesewhere). But before we even define the arch we need to answer Lucy's Q of whether this is something we need to solve. Lucy - I don't think the current protocol and architecture lets you do this. Dimitri - what prevents us today from saying we'd establish a connection at a given point in time? Lucy - all three options today don't work. Zafar - can't see what we need beyond what GMPLS provides. Lucy - your connection request doesn't have a future time in it. Zafar - there are so many ways you could do it. Nothing to do with protocol. Lucy - carriers currently rely on management plane to do it. If we have a CP then how do we combine them? Zafar - local decision? Lucy - A network resource you need to reserve. Signalling doesn't let you know time. Zafar - can take offline... Rowen - you do signalling to future allocate resources? So do you keep full state of future services? Lucy - we can work that out in implementation. Rowen - do you keep states in network for services that aren't running? That's a major scaling issue. Lucy - that's an implementation issue. George - It's a major scaling issue in building a switch. Also issues in terms of recovering stuff in event of failure. Better to leave stuff in the mgmt system and have CP as a slave. Lucy - we already have PCE etc. so don't need to embed this in the nodes George - when pull out of network, it is mgmt plane. Lucy - PCE is out of network but is CP. George - PCE isn't part of GMPLS CP. Not suggesting we put this in routing and signalling? E.g. signal with RSVP-TE ahead of time? Lucy - there are different ways to implement this, not suggesting one here. George - don't think is good idea to put this in the switches. Topology may change between making request and reserving it. So not very useful to embed the info too close to where you're going to deploy it. Lucy - I agree. George - two things need to happen before we consider this. (1) need to hear from SPs that it's a real need. Not many SPs want to keep dark fibre around to light up instantaneously. (2) need to clarify the architecture in terms of what is control and what is management... Gert - we have application like this running for two years. Never had req. from service provider to put anything in the control plane. So doubt if this is useful... Dimitri - I have one question. where shall I put the resource management state. If I don't see a cost/benefit ratio which is better than what we do today then won't do it. There is a temptation to make the control plane have all the features of the management plane - really dangerous as end up with a distributed management plane... Adrian - Keep hearing people say don't put mgmt plane in CP. I think I heard Lucy say that too. So we all agreed... =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 8. CCAMP Liaison responses (chairs) [25, 120/120] - OIF Signaling for MEF Requirements - OIF VLAN ID Requirements - OIF Interworking Cookbook - SG15 Related Slides Background reading - CCAMP incoming correspondence =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Dropped from the agenda due to lack of time. Adrian - please look at slides on liaison work. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C77172.ACFFD779 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here's = the minutes=20 of the second session, much thanks to the great notes of Giles Heron, = Julien=20 Meuric, and Tomonori Takeda. Please check them, comment on missing items = or=20 corrections, and start to work on the items identified (e.g.=20 liaisons).
 
Thanks,
Deborah and=20 Adrian
 
--------------------------------=
 
Sixty-eight IETF,=20 Prague, March 2007

Tuesday, March 20, 2007
1300-1500 Afternoon = Session=20 I
RTG     ccamp     Common = Control=20 and Measurement Plane WG

CCAMP Working Group Agenda Session=20 II
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
CHAIRS: Adrian Farrel=20
        = Deborah=20 Brungard

Note takers: Giles Heron, Julien = Meuric,=20 Tomonori = Takeda
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
0. Administrivia (chairs) [5,=20 5/120]

Slides

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Agenda=20 agreed.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
1.=20 Control plane requirements for GELS (Loa and Don) [30,=20 35/120]

Slides

Background reading
  -=20 draft-andersson-gels-exp-rsvp-te-01.txt
  -=20 draft-fedyk-gmpls-ethernet-pbb-te-00.txt
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Don=20 - Fedyk draft (PBB-TE) is rev of PBT draft.  Tracking IEEE work=20 on
      data plane. Project will be = approved=20 imminently in IEEE.  Done in
      = appendix as=20 data plane is IEEE-defined.  IETF just defining how=20 to
      use GMPLS for control.

Loa - = Andersson draft (GELS-EXP-RSVP-TE) is updated post comments. =20 Not
      just doc of an experimental = implentation=20 (not impl. this version
      yet).  = Use GMPLS=20 for "all" modes of connection types (where=20 "all"
      is P2P - not using yet for P2MP = though=20 have soln).  Variance with
      Fedyk = is have=20 more than one label type.

Don - GELS concluded that needed IEEE = data=20 plane.   IEEE doing = 802.1Qay.
      IEEE=20 projects are rolled up into larger specs - so Qay will=20 be
      rolled up into Q spec.

Loa - = Acreo=20 did 802.1Q-based implementation.  Describes=20 certain
      conditions that we operate=20 under.  Works for 802.1Q.

Don - trying to define superset = that will=20 work for other defined
      switching=20 paradigms.

Don - presented "Conventional Ethernet Bridging" and = then=20 "Configured
      Ethernet Bridging" where = STP is=20 removed and configure connections
      = instead. So=20 now have data plane and management plane. =20 Finally
      GELS - where GMPLS is used to = add back=20 the missing control
      = plane...

Loa - I=20 looked at Don's pictures and didn't understand them until=20 I
      slept on it!

Don - there is a = std for=20 partitioning the VLAN space as part of=20 existing
      project on shortest path=20 bridging...  So will be an official = way
     =20 to do it.

Dimitri - when I looked at your "triangle"=20 diagrams.   Issue is we=20 have
          some = 802.1=20 impacts.  Cross-correlation in terms of what=20 you
          can do = even if you=20 segment the VLAN space.  That will be=20 the
          major = points in=20 terms of getting this accepted by IEEE.

Loa - yes, agree is = important to=20 record interactions.  But what = has
     =20 happened to me repeatedly is that when I come up with a=20 problem
      and tell the IEEE guys they = tell me=20 there's an ongoing project
      that will = fix the=20 problem...
      that also needs to be part = of=20 documentation...

Don - diagram where remove CP dependencies is = part of an=20 IEEE project...

Don - back to GELS motives.  Dave Allen has = draft on=20 PW interworking
      with PBT.

Loa - = we have=20 draft using MPLS with some G-MPLS extensions on top of=20 L2
      Ethernet and optical L1.  = Takes about=20 an hour to learn to
      configure all 3=20 layers.  If you want to run different layers=20 in
      "augmented" mode where can request = services=20 from lower layers you
      have good = automatic=20 support here with GMPLS.

Don - We separated components so could = e.g. use=20 management plane with
      = signalling.  So=20 limited IP control plane for signalling.

Loa - need to be careful = not to=20 get packet forwarding through the
      = control=20 plane!

Don - LMP is like a superset of 802.1AB link = management.  So=20 can
      leverage AB and use = LMP.

Stewart -=20 did I hear "sending control plane traffic through the=20 data
         =20 plane"?

Loa - no the reverse.

Stewart - well we mix the = two all=20 the time in the IP world

Loa - CP is not dimensioned here to = handle data=20 plane traffic.  If you
      don't get = costs on=20 links you'll advertise the CP links into = the
     =20 data plane.

Adrian - issue is that is bad to send data traffic = down=20 control "
         channel", = not=20 control "plane"

Kireeti - issue here is that GMPLS is = out-of-band, MPLS=20 is in-band CP.

Zafar - how do you solve this?  In GMPLS we = normally=20 have completely
        separated = CP=20 network and data network.  So no way data can=20 get
        into control=20 network.

Loa - problem here is how do you define "completely=20 different".  Is
      totally separated = in that=20 no other IP connectivity between
      = Ethernet LSRS=20 than control plane but rides on same=20 wavelengths
      etc.

Adrian - could = use one=20 fibre for control and one for data? =20 Alternative
         seems to = be to=20 implement the LSRs correctly so they=20 don't
         forward data = on=20 control channel.

Loa - so this is the issue of vendors' routers + = inexperience setting up
      IP=20 networks.

Dimitri - problem here is that always left flexibility = as to=20 how to
          route = the IP=20 traffic.  Not been work in CCAMP since=20 inception.
          = Something=20 unintelligable...

Loa - model we used for other data planes works = quite=20 well...

Don - GELS axioms.  Some discussion on list on = asymmetric=20 b/w
      reservation.  Idea is to = fully=20 exploit what Ethernet data plane
      can = do -=20 hence choice of VID configuration or = VID+MAC
     =20 configuration...

Dimitri - PBB-TE being done in IEEE.  Not = speaking=20 about labels in IEEE?

Don - yes, don't call things "labels" in=20 IEEE.

Dimitri - we know IEEE will speak of bridging.  Are we = forward=20 looking
          about = what=20 IEEE will do?

Don - we took details of what IEEE is doing out, = partly=20 because is not
      an official project=20 yet.

Adrian - assumption is that if we go back to IEEE and say = we've=20 started
         on a CP to = control=20 this sort of switching and they say=20 "no",
         then we'll=20 stop.

Dimitri - if PBB-TE is bridging with TE then doesn't it = mean this=20 sort
          of config = is=20 acceptable for bridging.

Loa - yes you can do this from a = management=20 station.

Loa - ATM forum talked about ATM headers.  It was = only in=20 IETF that we
      talked about ATM=20 labels.

Dimitri - we know PBB is operating.  We don't know = about=20 PBB-TE at this
          = point.=20 Would like more info on how their initial framework=20 is
         =20 detailed.

Dave - given that PBB and PBB-TE can work together we = won't=20 alter the
       semantics of MAC=20 addresses.

Don - pretty far along.  Point is taken that = we're not=20 defining a data
      plane here but are = using a=20 defined one.

Loa - we know how .1Q, .1ad, .1ah etc. work.  = Will be=20 amendments to .1Q.
      If we expect = something new=20 to turn up we have to consider that
      = now. =20 But according to IEEE credo all new standards will=20 be
      = backwards-compatible.

Dimitri - are=20 we relying on backwards-compatibility of bridging to=20 make
          these = steps=20 now?

Don - yes.

Don - (Types of LSPs).  Been looking = at P2P=20 and P2MP in our draft.  Loa
      can = talk to=20 the other aspects.  Terminology differences.

Loa - there is = shared=20 forwarding in .1Q.  Rely on source address to=20 have
      an identity that is extended to = exactly=20 where things are going.
      In our mindset = we drop=20 the source address (not sure is right = thing
      to=20 do).  So then have a MP2P LSP.  Is largely overlapping=20 with
      what Don talks about as = P2P.  We=20 have done experiments on MP2MP
      = LSP. =20 Standard IEEE VLAN.  Same VLAN configured on multiple=20 ports
      and turn on learning/STP etc. = once set=20 up.  But basically a
      standard = VLAN. =20 Possible to configure it pretty quickly = with
     =20 scripts etc. (as need to reset testbed several times a day).

Igor = - my=20 understanding of PBB is single source.

Loa - not implemented = PBT. =20 What I've done is .1Q plus a couple of
      = deltas=20 we find in most switches.

Igor - so don't require single source = for the=20 connection...

Loa - only use VLAN ID and dest address to point to = an=20 LSP.

George -  When you say .1Q do you mean .1ad Provider=20 Bridges?  Are = you
         =20 doing QinQ?

Loa - no.  Just using one Q tag.  Though = the next=20 step is QinQ.  Behaves
      the same = way as=20 the start of an MPLS tunnel.  Set it up and=20 put
      traffic in.

Kireeti - what=20 signalling do you use for MP2P and MP2MP=20 LSPs?
          = Signalling or=20 provisioning?

Loa - All signalled except MP2MP (which is set up = with a=20 script - mgmt
      plane).

Kireeti - = so what=20 signalling do you use for MP2P?  Do you swap VLANs?

Loa - = no, same=20 VLAN through LSP.  That's one of the differences=20 with
      what we did earlier.

Don - = changes=20 we need in Gen label request for Ethernet.

Dimitri - Quesiton on = MP2P=20 techniques.  Is Loa's=20 implemantation
          = compatible with Don's?

Loa - need to compare and clarify.  = We can do=20 P2P with MAC and dest addr
      and then = allow or=20 not allow merging.  Need to sort out=20 terminology
      for shared = forwarding.

Don=20 - our view of MP2P is shared forwarding.  Two independent LSPs=20 that
      share the same label at the merge = point.  No difference
      = signalling-wise if=20 they don't share the label.

Kireeti - so basically MP2P LSP is = multiple=20 P2P LSPs that happen=20 to
          share the = last few=20 hops.

Igor - is MP2P same as N x P2P which merge at same=20 destination.

Don - "shared forwarding" is two individual LSPs = sharing=20 same tail-end
       = label.

George - do=20 all sources use same dest address?  And how do you=20 avoid
         paths that=20 criss-cross?

Loa - criss-cross can be solved in routing = protocol. =20 Once you merge you
      = merge.

George - so=20 not sending explicit path in RSVP message.

Loa - send explicit = path to=20 merge point, but once resolve is same as = an
     =20 existing path we allow you to merge onto it unless we set that=20 you
      can't do it.

Adrian - = George and I=20 need to work on this.  MP2P-TE needs to be=20 solved
         in a = generalised way=20 for MPLS, GMPLS and GELS.

George - this sounds a little = non-standard as=20 compared to what = RSVP-TE
        =20 does at the moment.

Loa - I admit to that.

George - so you = have=20 full ERO and then if you hit a merge point=20 and
         merge is allowed = then=20 you merge?

Loa - yes.  And don't have b/w = reservations.  If=20 TSPEC is the same can
      = merge.

Don -=20 shared forwarding is a limited version of merging.  No merging=20 of
      b/w etc.  More definition = required=20 around this term in the
     =20 documentation.

Loa - what you can accuse me of is using RSVP-TE = in an LDP=20 fashion.  We
      admit this is not=20 standard.  We are building our=20 experimental
      platform.  If what = we do is=20 good then fine, of not will change
     =20 it...

Loa - this slide (Gen Label Request) is additions, not=20 changes.

Don - using Dimitri's T-spec as a good starting=20 point.

Don - 2 diags stolen from Dave Allen as to where this is=20 applicable:
      1) PBB net with edge and = core=20 bridges offering a native=20 Ethernet
         VLAN over = the=20 top.  Looks like VPLS but is all native=20 Ethernet.
      2) case like a PW for=20 aggregation.

Loa - my comparible picture shows network from = "above" and=20 "the side".
      Yellow part is GELS.  = So have=20 MPLS over GELS over X?  X !=3D = optical
     =20 switches in this testbed.

Igor - you said GELS could help for = optical=20 networks.

Loa - was a bit more careful than that.  When we = get=20 people into our
      network we want to do = test=20 incorporation.  Want to help = people
     =20 understand the idea.  The operational paradigms of the layers=20 are
      very close.  If you want = inter-layer=20 signalling that works over
      = UNI.

Igor -=20 so in your opinion the CP similarity helps integration.

Loa - = yes, helps=20 operational side at least.

Igor - so people need to learn = less?  If=20 familiar with optical CP can
       = learn=20 Ethernet CP?

Igor - you also said GELS helped interwork = configured=20 Ethernet with
       MPLS. What did you = mean?  I read it as it helps by removing=20 MPLS.
       Is that = correct?

Don - is=20 interfacing Ethernet MAN to an MPLS network.

Igor - I don't see = MPLS=20 here.

Don - is in the WAN.

Dimitri - Where does the LSP = start and=20 finish in these diagrams?  Is=20 it
          an S-PVC = mode or an=20 SVC mode.

Loa - in our network Ethernet LSP starts at Ethernet = I/F of the=20 IP
      router. Optical LSP starts on = Optical=20 interface of Ethenret
      = switch.

Dimitri -=20 is is always a switched mode from access to S-PE?

Don - in this = case=20 would have a PW that could be terminated or=20 stitched.
      You can always choose to = terminate=20 and then ?

Dimitri - this is one of the limitations in UNI = deployments=20 today.  = Do
          we=20 gain something by only having a switched mode that=20 goes
          router to = router,=20 or do we need a mode that goes edge to=20 edge.
          So from = ingress=20 PE to egress PE that doesn't impact the=20 IP
          routers = (S-PVC mode=20 rather than SVC mode).  When I look=20 at
          usage of = GMPLS we=20 may need to consider both modes.

Adrian - don't see anything in = protocol=20 that prohibits either mode. =20 If
         something shows = up then=20 should flag it as we need to keep=20 both
         modes=20 available.

Dimitri - asking other way round.  If we only = have=20 switched mode = then
          can=20 only deploy GMPLS on nodes that today aren't able to=20 do
          it.  = I'm=20 stating about our experience of deployment... =20 That's
          a=20 concern.  Let's look at today's access nodes...

Loa - I've = kind of=20 lost the Q?  I suggest you write the Q down and=20 put
      it on the list...

Don - we = don't=20 need to add that much to GMPLS.  Next step is to add=20 a
      milestone for WG charter for = experimental=20 GELS spec (Loa's
      suggestion).  = Add=20 milestone to develop a spec for GELS
     =20 signalling/routing (combined suggestion).

Adrian - at all future = meets=20 GELS will be at end of agenda and you=20 can
         carry on in your = own=20 time.  Think we're premature for=20 milestone
         = requests. =20 Both of you can continue experimental work,=20 but
         doesn't come = into WG=20 quite yet.  Rules still apply as to how=20 to
         bring stuff into=20 WG.  Consider yourselves lucky that you=20 were
         allowed to = present=20 this.  Rules say that if you believe=20 you
         have an = IEEE-conformant=20 data plane then we liase to IEEE=20 and
         say that we wish = to=20 control it, is that ok?

Loa - brought 802.1Q.

Adrian - = just say=20 "please" ;-)  let's talk offline, I need to=20 understand
         the = dataplane=20 we're liasing a request=20 about...

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
2.=20 ARP over GMPLS (Zafar) [10, 45/120]

Slides

Background=20 reading
  -=20 draft-ali-arp-over-gmpls-controlled-ethernet-psc-i-03.txt
=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D

Zafar=20 went over the slides, explaining changes and requesting to be a
WG = I-D.=20 Suggest to use tunnel interface address for ARP request.

Lou - = Why is it=20 different from other p-to-p link between routers?

Zafar - This is = ethernet, so need ARP.

Lou - It exists without GMPLS, right? Is = your=20 solution applicable to
      those=20 spaces?

Zafar - We never have two addresses for the same physical = address, this
        is what you = see in=20 GMPLS.

Lou - The issue of p-to-p ethernet is new for some router=20 vendors?

Zafar - Typically we don't use unnumbered ethernet IF. = The=20 second point
        is that we = typically=20 don't use two addresses.

Lou - The first point is just unnumbered = ethernet, and some vendors
      don't = understand=20 it. Sounds like it is not CCAMP issue.

Zafar - Why? We are using=20 signaling.

Lou - That is the second problem.

Lou - The = second=20 problem sounds like GMPLS stuff. But it seems just=20 a
      broken implementation.

Zafar = - It is=20 unclear implementation.

Lou - What category do you intend for = this=20 I-D?

Zafar - BCP.

Igor - Where does the optical LSP start = and=20 end?

Zafar - Between routers.
Igor - Where is the ethernet=20 connection?

Zafar - It is also netween routers

Igor - What = type of=20 connection?

Dimitri - Good point. You can carry anything over = optical=20 LSP, so need
          = to be=20 sure whether we want to say framing etc.

Deborah - Good = discussion. Igor=20 raised a good question - is=20 the
          connection = optical=20 or ethernet. Take it to the list.

Adrian - (To Zafar) Please = drive the=20 discussion so we get=20 progress
         before the = next=20 IETF.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3.=20 Traffic Engineering Extensions to OSPF in support of inter-AS = TE
(Mach Chen)=20 [10, 55/120]

Slides

Background reading
  -=20 draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=
Mach=20 went over the slides, explaining motivations and=20 protocol
extensions.

Yakov - Overlap with OSPF auto-discovery = in=20 L1VPN. Encourage you to = look
        at=20 L1VPN WG.

JP - You say this is mandatory for BRPC, please clarify = in=20 which case
     you may need it. Can you also = make sure=20 you do a cut and paste of
     the "not to do" = slide into=20 the draft.  The draft is fine.  Want = to
    =20 make sure that the draft tells us what we're not trying to do=20 to
     prevent people coming up with silly = ideas. Are=20 you writing down in
     the document that not = doing TE=20 aggregation?

Mach - Yes.

Acee - Could you replace = extensions to=20 OSPF to extensions to OSPF-TE?
       = Add=20 OSPFv3 for refernece as well. This should be applicable=20 to
       both, but need to define if = that is=20 the case. Also not sure I
       agree = that it=20 should be bundled with L1VPN autodiscovery.

Stewart Bryant - The = reason=20 for ASs and BGP, etc, is for info=20 hiding.
          &n= bsp;     =20 Can we make sure that you are not feeding=20 private
          &n= bsp;     =20 information?

Adrian - doesn't that follow from saying that don't = share TE=20 info
         outside=20 AS?

Stewart- Yes, but need to be v.=20 strict...

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
4.=20 Bidirectional LSPs with asymmetric bandwidth requirements
(Attila) = [10,=20 65/120]

Slides

Background reading
  -=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Attila=20 went over the slides explaining motivations, options for
achieving = this, and=20 futher works.

Zafar - can you explain why you need both LSPs to = follow=20 the same route?

Attila - in some scenarios is beneficial to do = that for=20 management and a
couple of other issues.

Zafar - think Q is = back to=20 requirements of draft.  I think you need=20 to
        spell out more on the=20 application why you need same path.

Julien - I agree that = co-routed=20 asymmetrical services is needed. =20 But
         you may have = missed=20 possible scenario where you could=20 associate
         = bidirectional LSP=20 at ingress.

Lou - I think Zafar has a good point.  Before we = jump=20 into
      implementation need to say that = this is a=20 needed service and that
      what we have = today is=20 not sufficient.  We did = bidirectional
     =20 symmetric service because the transport network needed it.  if=20 we
      don't have such a transport network = then=20 what we have here may be
     =20 sufficient.

Attila - this extension is an optional = optimisation. =20 Not a requirement

Lou - so need to enumerate the cases where it's = useful=20 and what the
      benefit is.

Rowen = Soloman=20 - sometimes bundling 2 unidirectional LSPs and doing=20 low
           =     =20 level config of egress traffic management is=20 complex.
          &= nbsp;    =20 but want to see a relationship between this new=20 object
          &nb= sp;    =20 and CAC funtionality.  When do you go to CAC to=20 reserve
          &n= bsp;    =20 b/w for the alternate direction?  When is error sent=20 if
           &= nbsp;   =20 there's insufficient b/w.

Attila - this is implementation = Q.

Rowen=20 - would like to see recommendation.

Igor - like to see whether we = need=20 such service.  If have service = that
      =20 is symmetrical in all contexts except b/w then this might=20 be
       reasonable.  The reason = for=20 bidirectional LSP wasn't just = driven
       by=20 technology but also by benefits in setup time and=20 recovery.
       Much easier to handle = one=20 bidirectional LSP than a combination = of
      =20 two LSPs.

Attila - so summary is: do we have a strong use-case = for=20 this?  Need
         = mailing=20 list discussion.

Lucy - need to think about P2MP as an=20 application.

Dimitri - What is P2MP asymetric bidirectional LSP=20 about?

Lucy - Discuss=20 offline.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
5.=20 Data Channel Status using LMP (Dan) [10, = 75/120]

Slides

Background=20 reading
  -=20 draft-li-ccamp-confirm-data-channel-status-01.txt
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=
Dan=20 went over the slides, explaining changes and protocol = extensions

Adrian -=20 We don't have many people doing LMP here, but two on=20 this
         draft. Who in = the room=20 read this? -> 5
         = Any=20 strong feeling against? None, but...

Zafar - Raised some=20 concern

Dan - Have you read this I-D?

Zafar - Some = comments.=20 Personally not sure about requirements. Not=20 sure
        if the group has = enough=20 interest to solve this problem.

Adrian- we do have to be sure = we're=20 solving a problem that = needs
       =20 solving. Just because vendors are on the draft doesn't mean=20 they
        intend to implement = and=20 deploy.  Would like feedback=20 from
        carriers as to = whether this=20 is a real problem and whether=20 they'd
        look to LMP to = solve=20 it.

Diego - We have implemented LMP. This draft solves a real=20 problem.

Julien - Feel that this is an interesting issue to = solve. This=20 may be
         specific to=20 transmission devices. Not really issue for=20 packet
        =20 networks.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
6.=20 LSP Dynamical Provisioning Performance Metrics in GMPLS = Networks
(Guoying=20 Zhang) [10, 85/120]

Slides

Background reading
  -=20 draft-xie-ccamp-lsp-dppm-00.txt
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Guoying=20 went over the slides, explaining motivations and open = issues.

Adrian - is=20 this project alive, or complete?  Is the draft +=20 the
         research =20 finished?

Guoying - project is still going.  Want to do work = on e.g.=20 multipoint
          = LSPs and=20 rerouting.

Adrian - feedback you want from group is questions, = also what=20 else the
         group would = like=20 measured?

Guoying - also whether the group thinks this is=20 useful.

Adrian - please comment/discuss on mic or on = list.

Zafar -=20 why is graceful release delay important?

Guoying - why graceful, = or why=20 release?

Zafar - why is graceful release delay = important?

Guoying=20 - release delay is important as both setup and release=20 impact
          the = application=20 performance.  if release is not good=20 then
          won't = meet=20 requirements.  So need to define performance=20 for
          = release. =20 Only looking at graceful release here as=20 forced
          release = will=20 cause problems anyway...

Lucy - when you talk about control plane = management, is that just
       = signalling or=20 also data plane setup?

Guoying - only CP setup time today. Issues = with=20 control/data = sync.
         =20 hard to measure the=20 sync.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
7.=20 Transport Resource Management and Time-Based Bandwidth Services
(Lucy = Yong)=20 [10, 95/120]

Slides

Background reading
  -=20 draft-yong-ccamp-ason-gmpls-autobw-service-00
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Lucy=20 went over the slides, explaining motivations and asking the = group
whether=20 this is interesting.

Dimitri - what shall we standardise=20 here?

Lucy - we need to have a CP that can handle=20 reservation.

Dimitri - is there something today that prevents you = using=20 this model?
          = What do we=20 need to standardise here (where we work=20 on
         =20 protocols)?

Adrian - yes, we do protocols.  In order to = decide if we=20 need a protocol
         we = need to=20 see what architecture we're trying to build.  If=20 we
         can solve the=20 architecture with existing protocols then=20 we're
         done.  If = we need=20 new protocol then we need to do it (either=20 in
         CCAMP or=20 elesewhere).  But before we even define the arch=20 we
         need to answer = Lucy's Q=20 of whether this is something we need=20 to
         = solve.

Lucy - I=20 don't think the current protocol and architecture lets you=20 do
       this.

Dimitri - what = prevents=20 us today from saying we'd establish a=20 connection
          at = a given=20 point in time?

Lucy - all three options today don't = work.

Zafar -=20 can't see what we need beyond what GMPLS provides.

Lucy - your = connection=20 request doesn't have a future time in it.

Zafar - there are so = many ways=20 you could do it.  Nothing to do=20 with
        protocol.

Lucy = -=20 carriers currently rely on management plane to do it.  If we=20 have
       a CP then how do we combine = them?

Zafar - local decision?

Lucy - A network resource = you need=20 to reserve.  Signalling doesn't = let
      =20 you know time.

Zafar - can take offline...

Rowen - you do=20 signalling to future allocate resources? So do you=20 keep
        full state of future=20 services?

Lucy - we can work that out in = implementation.

Rowen -=20 do you keep states in network for services that aren't=20 running?
        That's a major = scaling=20 issue.

Lucy - that's an implementation issue.

George - = It's a=20 major scaling issue in building a switch.  Also=20 issues
         in terms of=20 recovering stuff in event of failure.  Better=20 to
         leave stuff in = the mgmt=20 system and have CP as a slave.

Lucy - we already have PCE etc. so = don't=20 need to embed this in the nodes

George - when pull out of = network, it is=20 mgmt plane.

Lucy - PCE is out of network but is CP.

George = - PCE=20 isn't part of GMPLS CP.  Not suggesting we put this=20 in
         routing and=20 signalling?  E.g. signal with RSVP-TE ahead=20 of
         time?

Lucy = - there=20 are different ways to implement this, not suggesting=20 one
       here.

George - don't = think is=20 good idea to put this in the switches. =20 Topology
         may change = between=20 making request and reserving it.  So=20 not
         very useful to = embed the=20 info too close to where you're=20 going
         to deploy=20 it.

Lucy - I agree.

George - two things need to happen = before we=20 consider this.  (1) need=20 to
         hear from SPs = that it's a=20 real need.  Not many SPs want to=20 keep
         dark fibre = around to=20 light up instantaneously.  (2) need=20 to
         clarify the = architecture=20 in terms of what is control and=20 what
         is=20 management...

Gert - we have application like this running for = two=20 years.  Never had
       req. from = service=20 provider to put anything in the control=20 plane.
       So doubt if this is=20 useful...

Dimitri - I have one question.  where shall I put = the=20 resource
          = management=20 state.  If I don't see a cost/benefit ratio=20 which
          is = better than=20 what we do today then won't do it.  There is=20 a
          temptation = to make=20 the control plane have all the features=20 of
          the = management=20 plane - really dangerous as end up with=20 a
          distributed=20 management plane...

Adrian - Keep hearing people say don't put = mgmt plane=20 in CP.  I think = I
         heard=20 Lucy say that too. So we all=20 agreed...

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
8.=20 CCAMP Liaison responses (chairs) [25, 120/120]
  - OIF Signaling = for MEF=20 Requirements
  - OIF VLAN ID Requirements
  - OIF = Interworking=20 Cookbook
  - SG15 Related

Slides

Background=20 reading
  - CCAMP incoming=20 correspondence
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Dropped=20 from the agenda due to lack of time.
Adrian - please look at slides = on=20 liaison work.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C77172.ACFFD779-- From ayumi741@3126.com Wed Mar 28 19:11:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWhJ8-0006sL-7t for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:11:58 -0400 Received: from [122.43.111.22] (helo=mail) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWhJ6-0004dL-QK for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:11:58 -0400 Received: by mail (Postfix, from userid 48) id 6B59511EC6E; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:17:10 +0900 (KST) To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?iOqTeJP8guqCvYLnlLKCr4LIgqKBQoNDg1yDTYOTg2CDg4NOgqiCzoKzgvGBSQ===?= From: Resent-Sender: ayumi741@3126.com Message-ID: <20070329161709.49368@3126.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-Id: <20070329071752.6B59511EC6E@mail> Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:17:10 +0900 (KST) Resent-From: ayumi741@3126.com (Apache) X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 **************************************************** “–ƒTƒCƒg‚Í20‘ã`50‘ã‚Ì“÷‘ÌŠÖŒW‚ð‹‚ß‚Ä‚¢‚élÈEn— ‚ªW‚Ü‚é“ú–{Å‘å‚Ì•s—σRƒ~ƒ…ƒjƒeƒB[ƒTƒCƒg‚Å‚·B **************************************************** s‚²—˜—p‚ÉŠÖ‚µ‚Ä‚Ì‚²’ˆÓt------------------------------- ‡T@‚²—˜—p‚Í’j—‹¤‚É•s—Ï‚ðŠó–]‚³‚ê‚é•û‚Ì‚Ý‚Æ‚³‚¹‚Ä’¸‚«‚Ü‚·B ‡U@’j—‹¤‚É‚¨‘ŠŽè‚É—v‹‚·‚鎖‚Í•s—ÏË“÷‘ÌŠÖŒW‚Ì‚Ý‚Å‚·B ‡V@ƒzƒeƒ‹‘ã‚ÉŠÖ‚µ‚Ä‚Í‚¨ŒÝ‚¢‚ÅŒˆ‚߂ĉº‚³‚¢B s‚²—˜—p•û–@‚ɂ‚¢‚Ät----------------------------------- ‡T@‚²Šó–]‚Ì’nˆæEƒ[ƒ‹ƒAƒhƒŒƒXEƒpƒXƒ[ƒh‚ðݒ肵‚Ä’¸‚«‚Ü‚·B ‡U@ŽŸ‚ÉŠÈ’P‚ÈŽ©ŒÈPR‚ðݒ肵‚Ä’¸‚«‚Ü‚·B ‡V@•s—ÏË“÷‘ÌŠÖŒW‚ðŠó–]‚·‚邨‘ŠŽè‚ðŒŸõ‚µ‚Ä’¸‚«‚Ü‚·B ‡W@‚²—˜—p‚³‚ê‚Ä‚¢‚élÈ‚³‚ñ‚Í‘S‚ÄŽ©ŒÈPR“à‚ÉŒg‘єԆ–”‚Í @@’¼ƒAƒhƒŒƒX‚ª•\Ž¦‚³‚ê‚Ä‚¨‚è‚Ü‚·‚Ì‚Å‚»‚ÌŽž“_‚Å’¼Ú‚²˜A—‚ð @@‚µ‚Ä’¸‚¢‚Ä‚àŒ‹\‚Å‚·‚µAƒTƒCƒg“à‚©‚çƒ[ƒ‹‚ɂĘA—‚ðŽæ‚é @@Ž–‚à‰Â”\‚Å‚·‚Ì‚Å‚¨D‚«‚ȘA—•û–@‚ÅŒð‚µ‚ĉº‚³‚¢B y’ˆÓzŽ©ŒÈPR“à‚ɘA—æ‚Ì•\Ž¦‚ª–³‚¢lÈ‚³‚ñ‚Í @@@@Œð‚ª¬—§‚µ“÷‘ÌŠÖŒW’†‚Å‚·‚̂ŘA—æ‚Ì•\Ž¦‚ª @@@@•œŠˆŒãAÄ“xŒðÂ‚ð‚¨Šè‚¢’v‚µ‚Ü‚·B ************************************************************** œ–{“úAŠ®‘S–³—¿‚Ån‚ꂽlÈ‚Æ“÷‘ÌŠÖŒW‚ðŠó–]‚³‚ê‚é’j«‚Í @http://cjbjj.com:112/ddd/hito-ot-f-sp/ œ–{“úAŠ®‘S–³—¿‚ʼnÎÆ‚Á‚½‘Ì‚ð–ž‚½‚µ‚Ä—~‚µ‚¢—«‚Í @http://cjbjj.com:112/ddd/hito-ot-f-sp/ ************************************************************** š‘Ò‡‚킹‚ÌêŠ‚ðƒŠƒAƒ‹ƒ^ƒCƒ€‚Å‚â‚èŽæ‚èŠm”F‚³‚ꂽ‚¢•û‚Í @ƒ‚ƒoƒCƒ‹iŒg‘Ñ“d˜bj‚Å‚ÌÝ’è‚ðƒIƒXƒXƒ’v‚µ‚Ü‚·B ************************************************************** From aiko7845@3126.com Wed Mar 28 19:22:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWhTH-0003nc-AU for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:22:27 -0400 Received: from [122.43.111.22] (helo=mail) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWhTF-00073R-QZ for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:22:27 -0400 Received: by mail (Postfix, from userid 48) id 8C0AC10AD74; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:17:09 +0900 (KST) To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?iOqTeJP8guqCvYLnlLKCr4LIgqKBQoNDg1yDTYOTg2CDg4NOgqiCzoKzgvGBSQ===?= From: Resent-Sender: aiko7845@3126.com Message-ID: <20070329161709.29877@3126.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-Id: <20070329072729.8C0AC10AD74@mail> Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:17:09 +0900 (KST) Resent-From: aiko7845@3126.com (Apache) X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 **************************************************** “–ƒTƒCƒg‚Í20‘ã`50‘ã‚Ì“÷‘ÌŠÖŒW‚ð‹‚ß‚Ä‚¢‚élÈEn— ‚ªW‚Ü‚é“ú–{Å‘å‚Ì•s—σRƒ~ƒ…ƒjƒeƒB[ƒTƒCƒg‚Å‚·B **************************************************** s‚²—˜—p‚ÉŠÖ‚µ‚Ä‚Ì‚²’ˆÓt------------------------------- ‡T@‚²—˜—p‚Í’j—‹¤‚É•s—Ï‚ðŠó–]‚³‚ê‚é•û‚Ì‚Ý‚Æ‚³‚¹‚Ä’¸‚«‚Ü‚·B ‡U@’j—‹¤‚É‚¨‘ŠŽè‚É—v‹‚·‚鎖‚Í•s—ÏË“÷‘ÌŠÖŒW‚Ì‚Ý‚Å‚·B ‡V@ƒzƒeƒ‹‘ã‚ÉŠÖ‚µ‚Ä‚Í‚¨ŒÝ‚¢‚ÅŒˆ‚߂ĉº‚³‚¢B s‚²—˜—p•û–@‚ɂ‚¢‚Ät----------------------------------- ‡T@‚²Šó–]‚Ì’nˆæEƒ[ƒ‹ƒAƒhƒŒƒXEƒpƒXƒ[ƒh‚ðݒ肵‚Ä’¸‚«‚Ü‚·B ‡U@ŽŸ‚ÉŠÈ’P‚ÈŽ©ŒÈPR‚ðݒ肵‚Ä’¸‚«‚Ü‚·B ‡V@•s—ÏË“÷‘ÌŠÖŒW‚ðŠó–]‚·‚邨‘ŠŽè‚ðŒŸõ‚µ‚Ä’¸‚«‚Ü‚·B ‡W@‚²—˜—p‚³‚ê‚Ä‚¢‚élÈ‚³‚ñ‚Í‘S‚ÄŽ©ŒÈPR“à‚ÉŒg‘єԆ–”‚Í @@’¼ƒAƒhƒŒƒX‚ª•\Ž¦‚³‚ê‚Ä‚¨‚è‚Ü‚·‚Ì‚Å‚»‚ÌŽž“_‚Å’¼Ú‚²˜A—‚ð @@‚µ‚Ä’¸‚¢‚Ä‚àŒ‹\‚Å‚·‚µAƒTƒCƒg“à‚©‚çƒ[ƒ‹‚ɂĘA—‚ðŽæ‚é @@Ž–‚à‰Â”\‚Å‚·‚Ì‚Å‚¨D‚«‚ȘA—•û–@‚ÅŒð‚µ‚ĉº‚³‚¢B y’ˆÓzŽ©ŒÈPR“à‚ɘA—æ‚Ì•\Ž¦‚ª–³‚¢lÈ‚³‚ñ‚Í @@@@Œð‚ª¬—§‚µ“÷‘ÌŠÖŒW’†‚Å‚·‚̂ŘA—æ‚Ì•\Ž¦‚ª @@@@•œŠˆŒãAÄ“xŒðÂ‚ð‚¨Šè‚¢’v‚µ‚Ü‚·B ************************************************************** œ–{“úAŠ®‘S–³—¿‚Ån‚ꂽlÈ‚Æ“÷‘ÌŠÖŒW‚ðŠó–]‚³‚ê‚é’j«‚Í @http://cjbjj.com:112/ddd/hito-ot-f-sp/ œ–{“úAŠ®‘S–³—¿‚ʼnÎÆ‚Á‚½‘Ì‚ð–ž‚½‚µ‚Ä—~‚µ‚¢—«‚Í @http://cjbjj.com:112/ddd/hito-ot-f-sp/ ************************************************************** š‘Ò‡‚킹‚ÌêŠ‚ðƒŠƒAƒ‹ƒ^ƒCƒ€‚Å‚â‚èŽæ‚èŠm”F‚³‚ꂽ‚¢•û‚Í @ƒ‚ƒoƒCƒ‹iŒg‘Ñ“d˜bj‚Å‚ÌÝ’è‚ðƒIƒXƒXƒ’v‚µ‚Ü‚·B ************************************************************** From buenosairescity@fibertel.com.ar Wed Mar 28 21:37:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWjaL-0004oj-5w for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; 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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 29 02:31:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWoAl-0006Kl-02 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 02:31:47 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWoAi-0005ID-Cu for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 02:31:46 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWo37-0007xp-N4 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 06:23:53 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO,RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [144.254.224.140] (helo=ams-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWo35-0007xV-9d for Ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 06:23:52 +0000 Received: from ams-dkim-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.138]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 29 Mar 2007 08:23:51 +0200 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l2T6Nogp014070; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 08:23:50 +0200 Received: from xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com (xbh-ams-332.cisco.com [144.254.231.87]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l2T6NnlZ024976; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 06:23:49 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-33a.cisco.com ([144.254.231.85]) by xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 29 Mar 2007 08:23:49 +0200 Received: from 144.254.4.175 ([144.254.4.175]) by xmb-ams-33a.emea.cisco.com ([144.254.231.85]) via Exchange Front-End Server email.cisco.com ([144.254.231.73]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 06:23:48 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.2.5.060620 Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 02:23:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG15 : MLN work From: Monique Morrow To: Adrian Farrel , CC: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , Ross Callon , Dave Ward , Scott Bradner Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG15 : MLN work Thread-Index: Acdxys9iDfA8Nt2+EduENQANk8LkKg== In-Reply-To: <0d9901c7716e$8529f850$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Mar 2007 06:23:49.0245 (UTC) FILETIME=[D0202AD0:01C771CA] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1964; t=1175149430; x=1176013430; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=mmorrow@cisco.com; z=From:=20Monique=20Morrow=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20Draft=20liaison=20to=20ITU-T=20SG15=20=3A=20MLN=20wor k |Sender:=20; bh=RXwKsF4p0LBMhiXMEnXpbkHC5GknMxiqphBm6bUdKB8=; b=EaO4U0n16D5xj3fC0IFUdBu2az/l+MM7FhRn6eEPu9/u6qZViWH2n4Cxn+oHnujDvOHrKhvY XEaCS4kWwRMsZp0Hgq8jhKeekXPsm0q8pEnE7Lbs32BxhysiRqJUghLI; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=mmorrow@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Looks ok Adrian! /m On 28/3/07 3:22 pm, "Adrian Farrel" wrote: > Hi, > > Here is the first of a series of proposed liaisons to ITU-T Study Group 15. > > Please comment by end of business 3rd April. > > Thanks, > Adrian and Deborah > ==== > To: ITU-T SG15 > Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward > Subject: Multi-Layer Networking (MLN) Work in CCAMP > For Action > Deadline: 18th May 2007 > > The CCAMP working group notes your request to review its work on Multi-Layer > Networking (MLN) as indicated in your liaison "Liaison Statement to CCAMP > responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" dated March 2007. > > We are nearing completion of our analysis of the requirements for MLN, and > our evaluation of existing protocols, so now is an appropriate time for you > review this material, and we would be grateful for your comments on or > before the deadline marked above. > > The requirements work can be found at > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-reqs-02.txt > The protocol evaluation is at > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-eval-02.txt > > In your review of this material, it may be helpful to pay particular care to > understand the definition of MLN that is used. It may also be helpful to use > some of the terminology interpretation presented in RFC4397. > > The CCAMP working group also anticipates working on protocol extensions to > fill the lacunae identified by the protocol evaluation Internet-Draft. An > individual submission on this subject may be found at > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-papadimitriou-ccamp-gmpls-mrn-extens > ions-03.txt, > but the working group has yet to make a decision about whether to accept > this as the basis for the work. > > Best regards, > Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard > Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group > From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 29 02:31:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWoAr-0006Mz-Oq for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 02:31:53 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWoAq-0005J0-Ac for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 02:31:53 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWo3r-00080b-A8 for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 06:24:39 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO,RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [144.254.224.140] (helo=ams-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWo3p-00080K-Bs for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 06:24:38 +0000 Received: from ams-dkim-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.138]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 29 Mar 2007 08:24:37 +0200 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l2T6OaIn014158; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 08:24:36 +0200 Received: from xbh-ams-331.emea.cisco.com (xbh-ams-331.cisco.com [144.254.231.71]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l2T6OalZ025070; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 06:24:36 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-33a.cisco.com ([144.254.231.85]) by xbh-ams-331.emea.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 29 Mar 2007 08:24:36 +0200 Received: from 144.254.4.175 ([144.254.4.175]) by xmb-ams-33a.emea.cisco.com ([144.254.231.85]) via Exchange Front-End Server email.cisco.com ([144.254.231.73]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 06:24:35 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.2.5.060620 Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 02:24:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT From: Monique Morrow To: Adrian Farrel , CC: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , Ross Callon , Dave Ward , Scott Bradner Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Thread-Index: AcdxyutlKeDJ9d2+EduENQANk8LkKg== In-Reply-To: <0da801c7716f$0f071760$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Mar 2007 06:24:36.0105 (UTC) FILETIME=[EC0E6F90:01C771CA] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1775; t=1175149476; x=1176013476; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=mmorrow@cisco.com; z=From:=20Monique=20Morrow=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20Draft=20liaison=20to=20ITU-T=20SG=2015=20=3A=20VCAT |Sender:=20; bh=pIRX/5N3dA6+MWGi9vmGFlz5Vb7O3OIvqM/S3rFPXwU=; b=G2Ttjr77rRynzodpuGeLyKqMuNKPlCJNZi45KV6wCvZWeQZz5YdMHn4z1Ls7OsjEjKV+w3Jf ydGJrWDSGis8FGpqHTCY83luWsHrmfGSbe30ZxS1ox324mbMzNuBJiDS; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=mmorrow@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Looks fine - thanks again! /m On 28/3/07 3:26 pm, "Adrian Farrel" wrote: > Hi, > > Here is the second draft liaison to go to ITU-T SG15. > > Again, comments by end of 3rd April, please. > > (Plenty more to follow, but we will try to turn them out a few at a time.) > > Thanks, > Adrian and Deborah > > === > > To: ITU-T SG15 > From: IETF CCAMP > Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward > Subject: VCAT/LCAS Work in CCAMP > For Comment > Deadline: 25th June 2007 > > The CCAMP working group thanks you for your liaison "Liaison Statement to > CCAMP regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" dated March 2007. > > We are not sure that the Internet-Draft > draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt does use mechanisms defined by ITU-T > SG 15 in Recommendations G.7041 and G.7042. We believe that the intention is > to enable the use of such mechanisms in a GMPLS network > > Nevertheless, we note your interest in this work and would welcome your > comments especially with respect to the applicability of this work to an > ASON network. > > The current published version of this work can be found at > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt. > Please note, however, that a new version of this draft is currently being > prepared by the authors that makes extensive changes to the published > material. Therefore, while we would welcome your comments, we suggest that > you do not invest heavily in a detailed review at this stage. > > We will liaise future versions of this Internet-Draft to you as they become > available. > > Best regards, > Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard > Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group > From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 29 03:44:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWpIz-0004or-OK for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 03:44:21 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWpIw-0004mx-BU for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 03:44:21 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWpCd-000OEK-Jw for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:37:47 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO,NO_REAL_NAME,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.1.7 Received: from [213.46.243.16] (helo=amsfep11-int.chello.nl) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWpCa-000ODo-NI for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:37:46 +0000 Received: from amsfep17 ([192.168.1.146]) by amsfep11-int.chello.nl (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with ESMTP id <20070329073734.YERI25741.amsfep11-int.chello.nl@amsfep17>; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:37:34 +0200 Message-ID: <30839666.1175153854204.JavaMail.root@amsfep17> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 7:37:34 +0000 From: To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Adrian Farrel Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Cc: Scott Bradner , Dave Ward , Ross Callon , "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal X-Originating-IP: from 81.208.44.26 by webedge.chello.com; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 9:37:33 +0200 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 Hello Adrian, I agree with what you propose, apart from a small editorial change, see in-line [hvh] Cheers, Huub. ------------------------------ > Here is the second draft liaison to go to ITU-T SG15. > > Again, comments by end of 3rd April, please. > > (Plenty more to follow, but we will try to turn them out a few at a time.) > > Thanks, > Adrian and Deborah > > === > > To: ITU-T SG15 > From: IETF CCAMP > Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward > Subject: VCAT/LCAS Work in CCAMP > For Comment > Deadline: 25th June 2007 > > The CCAMP working group thanks you for your liaison "Liaison Statement to > CCAMP regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" dated March 2007. > > We are not sure that the Internet-Draft > draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt does use mechanisms defined by ITU-T > SG 15 in Recommendations G.7041 and G.7042. We believe that the intention is > to enable the use of such mechanisms in a GMPLS network [hvh] recommendation G.7041 does not contain any VCAT/LCAS mechanism (it is the GFP definition), G.7042 is the generic LCAS definition. PDH VCAT is defined in G.7043, SDH/SONET VCAT in G.707 and OTN VCAT in G.709. G.7042, G.7043, G.707 and G.709 are referenced in draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01 I propose to remove G.7041 or replace it by G.7043. (yes, it is in the original SG15 liaison text, but it is not necessary to repeat the typo) > Nevertheless, we note your interest in this work and would welcome your > comments especially with respect to the applicability of this work to an > ASON network. > > The current published version of this work can be found at > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt. > Please note, however, that a new version of this draft is currently being > prepared by the authors that makes extensive changes to the published > material. Therefore, while we would welcome your comments, we suggest that > you do not invest heavily in a detailed review at this stage. > > We will liaise future versions of this Internet-Draft to you as they become > available. > > Best regards, > Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard > Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group From willaaugustine@atrativeserv.com Thu Mar 29 06:22:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWrlh-0000z2-H2 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 06:22:09 -0400 Received: from [211.117.223.221] (helo=LocalHost) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWrlZ-0006R8-VJ for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 06:22:05 -0400 To: "clifford randolph" Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 19:21:53 +0900 From: "nancee hallie" Sender: "nancee hallie" Subject: Nathaniel MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <389201c771ec$12700420$dddf75d3@LocalHost> Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_34A5_01C77237.77D8C090" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.2 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: fac892abe0c719c7bb99f6e7c710cdae This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_34A5_01C77237.77D8C090 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_34A6_01C77237.77D8C090" ------=_NextPart_001_34A6_01C77237.77D8C090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Partly stone, partly the absence of stone, X. The British Attack on the Arctic Of observation lying on the ground Rise, to the muffled chime of churchbell choir. Where lamps are lit: these, too, Yes. The obvious Toward . . . that seems to be the whispered question marked with a dark stroke from the left, encroached III. Chronology of Northern Exploration Writhing their stunted limbs, Point, after all, when finally one reaches Snaps of ice cracking in the hidden air. VIII. Russia: The Great Northern Expedition Covering the land?BR> In Florida, it's strawberry season?BR> Lucky the bell=97still full and deep of throat, grow hot in the parking lot, though they're And so I gaze avidly IV. The Paths to Cathay ------=_NextPart_001_34A6_01C77237.77D8C090 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Partly stone, partly the absence of stone,
X. The British Attack on the Arctic
Of observation lying on the ground
Rise, to the muffled chime of churchbell choir.
Where lamps are lit: these, too,
Yes. The obvious
Toward . . . that seems to be the whispered question
marked with a dark stroke from the left, encroached
III. Chronology of Northern Exploration
Writhing their stunted limbs,
Point, after all, when finally one reaches
Snaps of ice cracking in the hidden air.
VIII. Russia: The Great Northern Expedition
Covering the land—
In Florida, it's strawberry season—
Lucky the bell—still full and deep of throat,
grow hot in the parking lot, though they're
And so I gaze avidly
IV. The Paths to Cathay
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ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:41:55 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWt0o-00045b-QT for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:41:55 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWss5-000Hvq-0y for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:32:49 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.141] (helo=heisenberg.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWss2-000HvX-Az for Ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:32:47 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by heisenberg.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HWss0-0004l1-M4 for Ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:32:44 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.8] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:32:42 +0100 Message-ID: <0e5301c771f5$c1cb97a0$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ross Callon" , "Dave Ward" , "Scott Bradner" References: <0d9901c7716e$8529f850$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Subject: Update: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG15 : MLN work Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:27:17 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Mar 2007 11:32:43.0692 (UTC) FILETIME=[F78456C0:01C771F5] X-Originating-Heisenberg-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Someone more awake than I has noticed that a liaison from SG15 in February 2004 appeared to say that MLN was not of interest to ASON. Although things have probably moved on since then, we should check to find out the current situation. So the draft changes as follows... To: ITU-T SG15 Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward Subject: Multi-Layer Networking (MLN) Work in CCAMP For Action Deadline: 18th May 2007 The CCAMP working group notes your request to review its work on Multi-Layer Networking (MLN) as indicated in your liaison "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" dated March 2007. We are nearing completion of our analysis of the requirements for MLN, and our evaluation of existing protocols, so now is an appropriate time for you review this material, and we would be grateful for your comments on or before the deadline marked above. The requirements work can be found at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-reqs-02.txt The protocol evaluation is at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-eval-02.txt In your review of this material, it may be helpful to pay particular care to understand the definition of MLN that is used. It may also be helpful to use some of the terminology interpretation presented in RFC4397. The CCAMP working group also anticipates working on protocol extensions to fill the lacunae identified by the protocol evaluation Internet-Draft. An individual submission on this subject may be found at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-papadimitriou-ccamp-gmpls-mrn-extensions-03.txt, but the working group has yet to make a decision about whether to accept this as the basis for the work. We note that in a liaison dated February 2004 discussing the signaling requirements for ASON and reviewing draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-reqts-05.txt you said: 11. G.8080 defines the ASON control plane as applying to a single layer. Some examples in the draft involve multiple layers. While not precluded by implementations, a suggested replacement example is contained in the marked up copy that is single layer. Could you please confirm your current view of the definition of the ASON control plane in G.8080. Does the ASON control plane now apply to more than one layer? Could you please provide references to the appropriate sections of your Recommendations. Best regards, Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 29 07:41:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWt0x-0007g5-Uo for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:41:59 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWt0w-00046d-Ce for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:41:59 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWsrW-000HuK-EF for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:32:14 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.142] (helo=rutherford.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWsrS-000HtC-OO for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:32:12 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by rutherford.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HWsrQ-00067N-SH for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:32:09 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.8] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:32:06 +0100 Message-ID: <0e5101c771f5$bf431800$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ross Callon" , "Dave Ward" , "Scott Bradner" Subject: Draft liaison to ITU SG15 on process Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:21:43 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Mar 2007 11:32:07.0036 (UTC) FILETIME=[E1AB13C0:01C771F5] X-Originating-Rutherford-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b8f3559805f7873076212d6f63ee803e Hi, One of the larger issues raised by a recent liaison from ITU-T Study Group 15 is on process and how we can continue to build a better relationship between SG15 and CCAMP. Here is a draft response. Comments please by end of April 5th. Thanks, Adrian and Deborah === To: ITU-T SG15 From: IETF CCAMP Cc: Yoichi Maeda, Stephen Trowbridge, Kam Lam, Scott Bradner, Ross Callon, Dave Ward For Action Deadline: 25th June 2007 Subject: Cooperative Relationship between ITU-T SG15 and CCAMP CCAMP thanks you for your liaison entitled "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007". The last paragraphs of your liaison discuss the cooperative relationship between ITU-T SG15 and the IETF's CCAMP working group and we would like to respond to these issues separate from the technical discussions. Over the last few years we have seen an increase in cooperation between our organisations, and we believe that this is to the considerable benefit of the industry. CCAMP has regularly sent a liaison representative to ITU plenary and interim meetings, and useful comments and feedback have been received from these meetings as a result of review of IETF Internet-Drafts in progress. Additionally, Mr. Lyndon Ong has been allocated a regular slot on the CCAMP meeting agenda at each IETF meeting to update the working group on the progress of the ITU-T in areas of interest to CCAMP. While we consider that the free flow of information and the review feedback on CCAMP work to be very valuable, we are also conscious that the mechanisms of the ITU-T and IETF are very different. Therefore we make every attempt to avoid wasting your precious meeting time, and only ask for review when we consider the material to be stable and pertinent. In your liaison, you say: ITU-T SG 15 has been relying on a collaborative relationship with IETF ccamp to provide the protocol support for ASON. This collaborative work should allow the industry to take advantage of the different expertise in each of the Standards Development Organizations. Q.14/15 has not developed protocol specific Recommendations for ASON since 2003, based on an expected collaborative technical relationship, in which IETF ccamp would provide protocol solutions that fully meet the ITU-T ASON requirements. We appreciate your engagement with this process and we believe that it is to the best interests of the industry and to all participants in both bodies. In order to crystallise this process, the IETF has recently published RFC 4775 ("Procedures for Protocol Extensions and Variations") and has just consented for publication draft-andersson-rtg-gmpls-change-08.txt ("Change Process for Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Protocols and Procedures"). The net effect of these documents is to give the ITU-T clear access into the IETF process and to commit the IETF to work with the ITU-T to develop solutions to requirements that originate in the ITU-T. You state further: However, the effectiveness of this SDO liaison relationship could be improved. We agree that there is always room for improvements on both sides. Some issues will arise from differences in established behaviour within the two bodies, and we are always grateful when you point out opportunities to improve the mechanisms that we have in place. Although neither the ITU-T nor the IETF is likely to make a major change to its operational procedures, there are doubtless very many small areas where improvements could be made. One such area of improvement might be to relax the communication style and mechanisms allowing a more free and rapid exchange of technical opinions amongst the participants. Although this cannot replace the liaison relationship as a means for exchanging the official and consented views of each body, we could gain a lot from increasing the level of discussion rather than relying on the relatively infrequent use of liaison statements. We would welcome your suggestions on how to achieve this - the CCAMP mailing list remains open and might be a suitable vehicle for this type of communication. As you go on to say: We observe that IETF ccamp has responded to some of the technical issues raised by suggesting that the ITU-T participants should provide input directly, to the work in ccamp. We agree that having participants involved in both the ITU-T and IETF improves the communication process. We would like to confirm that this individual participation is not being suggested as a substitute for the liaison relationship. A liaison statement or ITU-T Recommendation represents the consensus of the members of the ITU-T. An individual participating in the work of ccamp is not authorized to represent or negotiate on behalf of the ITU-T. We understand the points you make. Nevertheless, we would like to continue to encourage individual participation. Individuals who are interested in the development rather than the review of protocol solutions would be well advised to bring their ideas to CCAMP early in the process. In the same way, we would advise individuals interested in the work of the ITU-T to become involved there and not to wait for the opportunity to review the material when it is liaised to the IETF as it nears completion. You cite a specific area for improvement in your liaison, and we are grateful for your attempt to isolate specifics since it is far more easy to learn from examples than from general statements. One particular area for improvement of the liaison relationship is communicating the disposition of ITU-T comments related to the interpretation of ASON requirements. For example comments provided on, draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-reqts-02 (now RFC 4258) and draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing eval-00 (now RFC 4652) were not included in the published RFC and the rational for this decision has not been communicated. We are disturbed by your identification of these specific concerns at this time in our communication. Due to the time that has lapsed since the events that you mention, it is hard to provide appropriate and definitive discussion. We believe that the discussion of RFC 4258 and lack of response refers to a liaison received from SG15 in February 2004. Although the issues received full discussion on an open mailing list and included comments from no fewer than seven regular Q14/15 participants, and although the design team that produced the final text of the RFC included Q14/15 participants who could have reported the agreement and rationale back to Q14/15, we agree that it would have been helpful to liaise the outcome of these discussions to you direct. In a subsequent liaison (COM15-LS18) in April 2004, where you stated: Q.14/15 would like to thank the IETF CCAMP WG and especially the members of the ASON Routing Requirements Design Team for their efforts to understand and capture ASON Routing Requirements for the future work in IETF. Q.14/15 would like to continue cooperative work with IETF, extending this to the application of routing protocols to support the ASON requirements. We interpreted these sentences to mean that you were aware of the completion of RFC4258 and that you were satisfied with the results. Review of the material that led to RFC 4652 was first liaised to CCAMP by SG15 in May 2005 (COM 15-LS57-E) in response to a request for review issued by CCAMP earlier that same month. The liaison from SG15 was marked "For Information" and our understanding of this label (as noted in section 2.2.1.1.6 of RFC 4053) is that "The liaison statement is to inform the addressee of something, and expects no response." In the light of the current situation it would have been wise for the chairs to have confirmed that this was really the intended purpose of the liaison, but we should note that 50% of the author team for RFC 4652 were regular Q14/15 attendees who could have reported the status and decisions (albeit informally) to the Question. Subsequent liaisons on the material of RFC 4652 included: November 2005 (Q12-14 Interim meeting-LS006-E) "Q.14/15 ... strongly supports CCAMP's continued work to address ASON requirements in the routing protocols." Your recent liaison concludes: ITU-T SG15 continues to be interested in providing clarification or validation of IETF ccamp interpretation of the ASON requirements and therefore request that in future any documents under development that are potentially applicable to ASON be liaised so that ITU-T can validate the documents against the ASON requirements. We look forward to receiving your response and hope that we can continue to build a cooperative and productive relationship between ccamp and SG 15. While we cannot promise to send every piece of work that is potentially applicable to ASON, we can and will liaise all work where there is a definitive intention of applicability to ASON. CCAMP continues to be grateful to SG15 for its efforts to ensure that the ASON architecture and requirements are correctly interpreted, and appreciates that this will lead to protocol solutions that are of value to the industry. Best regards, Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 29 07:45:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWt3v-0003GQ-Uo for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:45:03 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWt3t-0004bi-89 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:45:03 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWsz6-000IQp-PH for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:40:04 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.142] (helo=rutherford.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWsz4-000IPh-7s for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:40:03 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by rutherford.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HWsz3-0003kb-8d for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:40:01 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.8] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:39:59 +0100 Message-ID: <0eab01c771f6$f7e10040$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: , References: <30839666.1175153854204.JavaMail.root@amsfep17> Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:39:36 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Mar 2007 11:40:00.0614 (UTC) FILETIME=[FBF15860:01C771F6] X-Originating-Rutherford-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be Thanks Huub, I will make changes accordingly. A ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; "Adrian Farrel" Cc: "Scott Bradner" ; "Dave Ward" ; "Ross Callon" ; "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 8:37 AM Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT > Hello Adrian, > > I agree with what you propose, apart from a small > editorial change, see in-line [hvh] > > Cheers, Huub. > ------------------------------ > >> Here is the second draft liaison to go to ITU-T SG15. >> >> Again, comments by end of 3rd April, please. >> >> (Plenty more to follow, but we will try to turn them out a few at a >> time.) >> >> Thanks, >> Adrian and Deborah >> >> === >> >> To: ITU-T SG15 >> From: IETF CCAMP >> Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward >> Subject: VCAT/LCAS Work in CCAMP >> For Comment >> Deadline: 25th June 2007 >> >> The CCAMP working group thanks you for your liaison "Liaison Statement to >> CCAMP regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" dated March 2007. >> >> We are not sure that the Internet-Draft >> draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt does use mechanisms defined by >> ITU-T >> SG 15 in Recommendations G.7041 and G.7042. We believe that the intention >> is >> to enable the use of such mechanisms in a GMPLS network > > [hvh] recommendation G.7041 does not contain any VCAT/LCAS > mechanism (it is the GFP definition), G.7042 is the generic LCAS > definition. PDH VCAT is defined in G.7043, SDH/SONET VCAT in G.707 and OTN > VCAT in G.709. > G.7042, G.7043, G.707 and G.709 are referenced in > draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01 > I propose to remove G.7041 or replace it by G.7043. > (yes, it is in the original SG15 liaison text, but it is not > necessary to repeat the typo) > >> Nevertheless, we note your interest in this work and would welcome your >> comments especially with respect to the applicability of this work to an >> ASON network. >> >> The current published version of this work can be found at >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt. >> Please note, however, that a new version of this draft is currently being >> prepared by the authors that makes extensive changes to the published >> material. Therefore, while we would welcome your comments, we suggest >> that >> you do not invest heavily in a detailed review at this stage. >> >> We will liaise future versions of this Internet-Draft to you as they >> become >> available. >> >> Best regards, >> Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard >> Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group > > > > From babarareuben@texaswildblue.com Thu Mar 29 09:06:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWuL1-0001Ul-J3 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:06:47 -0400 Received: from [124.80.24.205] (helo=youret7p75evpa) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWuKx-0007Cz-4v for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:06:47 -0400 To: "savina clarette" Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:03:43 +0900 From: "katie llewellyn" Sender: "katie llewellyn" Subject: Stephanie MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <1354701c77202$adaee5d0$cd18507c@youret7p75evpa> Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_1313C_01C7724E.08A2EFE0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: fac892abe0c719c7bb99f6e7c710cdae This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_1313C_01C7724E.08A2EFE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_1313D_01C7724E.08A2EFE0" ------=_NextPart_001_1313D_01C7724E.08A2EFE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The form sought for centuries by Oh you builders, At San Biagio, in the most intense room Before those virile women! Empty streets I come upon by chance, Palladio who beckons from the other shore, But what I am looking at is hardened snow, Out of the picture of life, as it were, out =97Now that you notice it=97have just moved past Like some poor wounded wretch=97long left for dead At the white place of the road's vanishing In stone waves and rock waters, far from day, Pallid waste where no radiant fathomers, Of the matter of snow here. Both of us have grasped Dim, and die tonight? XIX. Jones Sound and Beaufort Sea Chose to walk out of it, they'd have to pass Onto my frozen fingers. Place of absorbing snow, itself to be ------=_NextPart_001_1313D_01C7724E.08A2EFE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
The form sought for centuries by
Oh you builders,
At San Biagio, in the most intense room
Before those virile women!
Empty streets I come upon by chance,
Palladio who beckons from the other shore,
But what I am looking at is hardened snow,
Out of the picture of life, as it were, out
—Now that you notice it—have just moved past
Like some poor wounded wretch—long left for dead
At the white place of the road's vanishing
In stone waves and rock waters, far from day,
Pallid waste where no radiant fathomers,
Of the matter of snow here. Both of us have grasped
Dim, and die tonight?
XIX. Jones Sound and Beaufort Sea
Chose to walk out of it, they'd have to pass
Onto my frozen fingers.
Place of absorbing snow, itself to be
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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7725E.0794C0F0-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 29 11:01:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWw7c-0007qx-Iu for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:01:04 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWw7G-0004wA-T7 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:01:04 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWvuG-0004zk-Sz for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:47:16 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.141] (helo=heisenberg.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWvu9-0004zL-9l for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:47:11 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by heisenberg.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HWvu8-0002Qy-0n for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:47:08 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.152] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:47:03 +0100 Message-ID: <0eef01c77211$1b034c80$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: , "Lam, Hing-Kam \(Kam\)" Cc: References: <30839666.1175153854204.JavaMail.root@amsfep17> Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:46:09 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Mar 2007 14:47:04.0303 (UTC) FILETIME=[1DC85FF0:01C77211] X-Originating-Heisenberg-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 386e0819b1192672467565a524848168 Huub, Kam, Should we also liaise the VCAT/LCAS work to Q11/15? Or is it enough to send it to SG15 and let the TSB work out who should get it? Thanks, Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; "Adrian Farrel" Cc: "Scott Bradner" ; "Dave Ward" ; "Ross Callon" ; "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 8:37 AM Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT > Hello Adrian, > > I agree with what you propose, apart from a small > editorial change, see in-line [hvh] > > Cheers, Huub. > ------------------------------ > >> Here is the second draft liaison to go to ITU-T SG15. >> >> Again, comments by end of 3rd April, please. >> >> (Plenty more to follow, but we will try to turn them out a few at a >> time.) >> >> Thanks, >> Adrian and Deborah >> >> === >> >> To: ITU-T SG15 >> From: IETF CCAMP >> Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward >> Subject: VCAT/LCAS Work in CCAMP >> For Comment >> Deadline: 25th June 2007 >> >> The CCAMP working group thanks you for your liaison "Liaison Statement to >> CCAMP regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" dated March 2007. >> >> We are not sure that the Internet-Draft >> draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt does use mechanisms defined by >> ITU-T >> SG 15 in Recommendations G.7041 and G.7042. We believe that the intention >> is >> to enable the use of such mechanisms in a GMPLS network > > [hvh] recommendation G.7041 does not contain any VCAT/LCAS > mechanism (it is the GFP definition), G.7042 is the generic LCAS > definition. PDH VCAT is defined in G.7043, SDH/SONET VCAT in G.707 and OTN > VCAT in G.709. > G.7042, G.7043, G.707 and G.709 are referenced in > draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01 > I propose to remove G.7041 or replace it by G.7043. > (yes, it is in the original SG15 liaison text, but it is not > necessary to repeat the typo) > >> Nevertheless, we note your interest in this work and would welcome your >> comments especially with respect to the applicability of this work to an >> ASON network. >> >> The current published version of this work can be found at >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt. >> Please note, however, that a new version of this draft is currently being >> prepared by the authors that makes extensive changes to the published >> material. Therefore, while we would welcome your comments, we suggest >> that >> you do not invest heavily in a detailed review at this stage. >> >> We will liaise future versions of this Internet-Draft to you as they >> become >> available. >> >> Best regards, >> Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard >> Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group > > > > From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Mar 29 11:53:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWwwZ-0000Jl-Go for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:53:43 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWwwW-0003ZN-2N for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:53:43 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWwnB-0008gh-FB for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:44:01 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.142] (helo=rutherford.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HWwn7-0008g8-0w for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:43:59 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by rutherford.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HWwn3-0000kb-O4 for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:43:53 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.35] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:43:52 +0100 Message-ID: <0f3d01c77219$0606db50$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ross Callon" , "Dave Ward" , "Scott Bradner" Subject: Another draft liaison to SG15: Call/Connection Separation Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:53:41 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Mar 2007 15:43:52.0919 (UTC) FILETIME=[0D79E670:01C77219] X-Originating-Rutherford-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b5d20af10c334b36874c0264b10f59f1 Hi, A small liaison just to close down on a technical point. Comments by end of Tuesday 3rd April, please. Adrian and Deborah === To: ITU-T SG15 Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Ross Callon; Dave Ward; Scott Bradner Subject: Call/Connection Separation in ASON and GMPLS For Comment Deadline: 11th May 2007 The CCAMP working group of the IETF thanks you for your liaison "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" (Q14/15 - LS 1 - E) dated March 2007. This liaison continues a discussion on the logical separation of calls and connections. The substance of this conversation is as follows: SG15 to CCAMP COM 15 - LS 126 - E dated November 2006 1. Call/Connection architecture and realization approaches Attachment 2 below provides further elaboration of application scenarios that illustrate G.8080 call/connection control component interactions. The G.8080 architecture may be employed to support various call control realization approaches. It should be noted that the architecture does not dictate any particular implementation and we would request that any solution not impose such limitations. We observe that Section 3.2 of explicitly prohibits logical call/connection control separation; i.e., call communications "piggy-backing" on connection communications. CCAMP to SG15 Dated 21st February 2007 Regarding your comments on 2.0 It is important to recognize that [this draft] introduces Call mechanisms into GMPLS as a generic tool. As noted in Section 2, while the mechanisms of this document meet the requirements in RFC 4139, they are intended to have wider applicability than ASON. RFC 4139 details the requirements for ASON. The application of the GMPLS Call to the ASON architecture in order to satisfy the requirements for conveying ASON Call information across a GMPLS interface and for managing ASON Calls at a GMPLS UNI or GMPLS ENNI will require a new Applicability Draft. Thus, section 3.2 of this document does not imply anything about ASON, and certainly not that ASON requires full and logical call/connection separation. We understand that ASON Calls may be implemented through full call/connection separation (as in G.7713.3) or call/connection 'piggybacking' as in G.7713.2. Please confirm that our interpretation of G.8080 and G.7713 is correct. SG15 to CCAMP Q14/15-LS1-E dated March 2007 Regarding call and connection separation the liaison states: "We understand that ASON Calls may be implemented through full call/connection separation (as in G.7713.3) or call/connection 'piggybacking' as in G.7713.2. Please confirm that our interpretation of G.8080 and G.7713 is correct." ASON requires full logical separation of the call and connection which may be implemented with separate or piggybacked call and connection signalling. We would like to complete this discussion by reiterating that draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-04.txt defines mechanisms that provide full and logical Call/Connection separation. Your initial interpretation of section 3.2 of draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-01.txt was incorrect and the text states now (and stated then) that "Full and logical Call and Connection separation is required." If you have any further concerns about how call and connection separation is achieved in this work, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP working group From roselinviola@fetalart.com Thu Mar 29 12:28:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWxUc-0000Z3-5Q for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:28:54 -0400 Received: from 88-104-136-87.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com ([88.104.136.87] helo=Gareth) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWxUW-00020P-R1 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:28:54 -0400 To: "kathleen terry" Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 17:27:42 +0100 From: "tom roseanne" Sender: "tom roseanne" Subject: Earnestine MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <793a01c7721f$2cc63b90$57886858@Gareth> Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_7649_01C77227.7BB10C00" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 1ba0ec39a747b7612d6a8ae66d1a873c This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_7649_01C77227.7BB10C00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_764A_01C77227.7BB10C00" ------=_NextPart_001_764A_01C77227.7BB10C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the sound of the snow. What the countless Of observation lying on the ground Of a far barn, just where the road curves sharply demonstrating their talent for comedy-stroke One flash of eye, or blow one clarion-blast; Comes up with as a means to its own end. IX. After the Great Northern Expedition By what it seems to have moved toward. In any In Florida, it's strawberry season- M=E8re and P=E8re Chose are walking away from the The winged winds, captives of that age-old foe When I am heard, and what I say is solely I've drifted somewhat from the distant heart Close at the end of distance the two Chose From which, thanks to symmetry, Swaying in unison beneath the snow, Swaying in unison beneath the snow, It is as though I were at a second threshold. From which, thanks to symmetry, ------=_NextPart_001_764A_01C77227.7BB10C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In the sound of the snow. What the countless
Of observation lying on the ground
Of a far barn, just where the road curves sharply
demonstrating their talent for comedy—stroke
One flash of eye, or blow one clarion-blast;
Comes up with as a means to its own end.
IX. After the Great Northern Expedition
By what it seems to have moved toward. In any
In Florida, it's strawberry season—
Mère and Père Chose are walking away from the
The winged winds, captives of that age-old foe
When I am heard, and what I say is solely
I've drifted somewhat from the distant heart
Close at the end of distance the two Chose
From which, thanks to symmetry,
Swaying in unison beneath the snow,
Swaying in unison beneath the snow,
It is as though I were at a second threshold.
From which, thanks to symmetry,
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because@patrickuk.com Thu Mar 29 13:12:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWyBF-0005Xg-3f for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:12:57 -0400 Received: from eca122.internetdsl.tpnet.pl ([83.14.156.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HWyBB-0002R3-UZ for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:12:57 -0400 Message-ID: <001001c77225$7728d6b0$7a9c0e53@xqux6osig6zd2n> From: "previous short" To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Mercedes class more night Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 19:12:44 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C77236.3AAF35B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 1449ead51a2ff026dcb23465f5379250 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C77236.3AAF35B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C77236.3AAF35B0" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C77236.3AAF35B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Inspiron with pentium ghz mb ddr. 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Inspiron with pentium ghz mb ddr. = Copyright llc,=20 rights, reserved logo trademarks readers.
Is very easy to.
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How, customize posted stacking. Build = the final=20 promised you, full which. Xp, or something similar do miss because may = add.
Where possible much, linkedto = page.
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Distract from whatever manage files. = Row item make=20 drag drawing?
Over done duplicate all those machine, = used.
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Var, dcunitid comments printer friendly = how!
Allow me set icon sizedetail level=20 systemwide.
 
 
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<000b01c77225$764665f0$7a9c0e53@xqux6osig6zd2n> From: "OS Galaxy" To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: hard does give Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 19:12:42 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C77236.39CF35F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 1449ead51a2ff026dcb23465f5379250 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C77236.39CF35F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0008_01C77236.39CF35F0" ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C77236.39CF35F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Box around multiple items clicking point row item. 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Make drag drawing selection option = allow me set=20 icon. Trying cram both tiny.
Their hands, via oem channels, anyway=20 meaning!
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2007 18:45:34 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HX3FB-0003bd-Rm for ccamp-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:37:21 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [212.23.3.141] (helo=heisenberg.zen.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HX3F9-0003bG-5i for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:37:20 +0000 Received: from [88.96.235.142] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by heisenberg.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HX3F7-0001rP-TT for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:37:18 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([217.158.132.249] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:37:16 +0100 Message-ID: <0fe601c77252$cb85d960$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Subject: Fw: DISCUSS: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:36:30 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Mar 2007 22:37:16.0964 (UTC) FILETIME=[CDD6CE40:01C77252] X-Originating-Heisenberg-IP: [88.96.235.142] Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Hi, I think we may have reached closure on the security issues with the Call I-D. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Hartman" To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 5:55 PM Subject: DISCUSS: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call > Discuss: > [This discuss does actually have its roots in my previous discuss. I > realize it is not obvious. There have been a lot of side discussions] > > One use case of the call concept raises security concerns. In > particular, calls are being proposed so that you can authenticate to a > call server using an end-to-end notify, get some policy goop and that > goop can be used for policy decisions like whether to accept your > call. The problem is that this creates a situation where new security > associtaions are required that for the most part typically do not come > up in RSVP today even though end-to-end notify is already supported. > That triggers RFC 4107 analysis and a very high probability that > mandatory automated key management is required. We don't want to > block this document on that. > > > I propose the following: > > old: > Note, additionally, that the process of independent Call > establishment, where the Call is set up separately from the LSPs, may > be used to apply an extra level of authentication and policy for the > end-to-end LSPs above that which is available with Call-less, > hop-by-hop LSP setup. > > new: Note, additionally, that it would be desirable to use the process > of independent Call establishment, where the Call is set up > separately from the LSPs, to apply an extra level of authentication > and policy for the end-to-end LSPs above that which is available > with Call-less, hop-by-hop LSP setup. However doing so will > require additional work to set up security associations between the > peer and the call manager that meet the requirements of RFC 4107. > The mechanism described in this document is expected to meet this > use case when combined with this additional work. Application of > this mechanism to the authentication and policy use case prior to > standardization of a security solution is inappropriate and outside > the current applicability of the mechanism. From enpocep@pls.ap-hop-paris.fr Thu Mar 29 22:49:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HX7Ax-0007h2-E7 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:49:15 -0400 Received: from [221.214.167.110] (helo=pls.ap-hop-paris.fr) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HX7Av-0003NE-BX for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:49:15 -0400 Message-ID: <095501c77304$3dbc73d0$4504a7a0@igerminalv> Reply-To: "Seth Levinev" From: "Seth Levinev" To: Subject: Re: auction inconsistent Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:42:44 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Experience a Charging Bull Critical CARE NEW SYmb-C_C_T_I Currently : 16 Cents, CHEAP!!! Expected : $1 ( 500 percent return!! ) This one is Guaranteed to double in next 2 days Get in this gem tomorrow, Catch an easy doubler!! handle when Anthony and Iverson are coming at you like that. They are hard to after firing Brian Ellerbe. He inherited a mess, stemming from the Ed Martin "There were moments of delight and success (this season)," Martin said. every shot in the world,'' Suns coach Mike D'Antoni said. ''They are hard to ----- Original Message ----- From: "Seth Levinev" To: Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 8:27 PM Subject: auction inconsistent > Experience a Charging Bull > Critical CARE NEW > SYmb-C_C_T_I > Currently : 16 Cents, CHEAP!!! > Expected : $1 ( 500 percent return!! ) From hamasaki159@126.com Fri Mar 30 02:29:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXAbm-0003o0-HG for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 02:29:10 -0400 Received: from [58.233.137.51] (helo=localhost.jp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXAbk-0005jI-LX for ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 02:29:10 -0400 Received: (qmail 3048 invoked by uid 48); 30 Mar 2007 07:27:07 +0900 Date: 30 Mar 2007 07:27:07 +0900 To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?g0eDk4Nog4yDWFNFWIHLlOaC6oLwkm2C54LIgqKJu4KvlaiDSYNvg1SDk4Kyj9CJ7pJ2grWC3IK3=?= From: Message-ID: <20070330072707.38801@126.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 3.2 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 **************************************************** “–ƒTƒCƒg‚Í20‘ã`50‘ã‚Ì“÷‘ÌŠÖŒW‚ð‹‚ß‚Ä‚¢‚élÈEn— ‚ªW‚Ü‚é“ú–{Å‘å‚Ì•s—σRƒ~ƒ…ƒjƒeƒB[ƒTƒCƒg‚Å‚·B **************************************************** s‚²—˜—p‚ÉŠÖ‚µ‚Ä‚Ì‚²’ˆÓt------------------------------- ‡T@‚²—˜—p‚Í’j—‹¤‚É•s—Ï‚ðŠó–]‚³‚ê‚é•û‚Ì‚Ý‚Æ‚³‚¹‚Ä’¸‚«‚Ü‚·B ‡U@’j—‹¤‚É‚¨‘ŠŽè‚É—v‹‚·‚鎖‚Í•s—ÏË“÷‘ÌŠÖŒW‚Ì‚Ý‚Å‚·B ‡V@ƒzƒeƒ‹‘ã‚ÉŠÖ‚µ‚Ä‚Í‚¨ŒÝ‚¢‚ÅŒˆ‚߂ĉº‚³‚¢B s‚²—˜—p•û–@‚ɂ‚¢‚Ät----------------------------------- ‡T@‚²Šó–]‚Ì’nˆæEƒ[ƒ‹ƒAƒhƒŒƒXEƒpƒXƒ[ƒh‚ðݒ肵‚Ä’¸‚«‚Ü‚·B ‡U@ŽŸ‚ÉŠÈ’P‚ÈŽ©ŒÈPR‚ðݒ肵‚Ä’¸‚«‚Ü‚·B ‡V@•s—ÏË“÷‘ÌŠÖŒW‚ðŠó–]‚·‚邨‘ŠŽè‚ðŒŸõ‚µ‚Ä’¸‚«‚Ü‚·B ‡W@‚²—˜—p‚³‚ê‚Ä‚¢‚élÈ‚³‚ñ‚Í‘S‚ÄŽ©ŒÈPR“à‚ÉŒg‘єԆ–”‚Í @@’¼ƒAƒhƒŒƒX‚ª•\Ž¦‚³‚ê‚Ä‚¨‚è‚Ü‚·‚Ì‚Å‚»‚ÌŽž“_‚Å’¼Ú‚²˜A—‚ð @@‚µ‚Ä’¸‚¢‚Ä‚àŒ‹\‚Å‚·‚µAƒTƒCƒg“à‚©‚çƒ[ƒ‹‚ɂĘA—‚ðŽæ‚é @@Ž–‚à‰Â”\‚Å‚·‚Ì‚Å‚¨D‚«‚ȘA—•û–@‚ÅŒð‚µ‚ĉº‚³‚¢B y’ˆÓzŽ©ŒÈPR“à‚ɘA—æ‚Ì•\Ž¦‚ª–³‚¢lÈ‚³‚ñ‚Í @@@@Œð‚ª¬—§‚µ“÷‘ÌŠÖŒW’†‚Å‚·‚̂ŘA—æ‚Ì•\Ž¦‚ª @@@@•œŠˆŒãAÄ“xŒðÂ‚ð‚¨Šè‚¢’v‚µ‚Ü‚·B ************************************************************** œ–{“úAŠ®‘S–³—¿‚Ån‚ꂽlÈ‚Æ“÷‘ÌŠÖŒW‚ðŠó–]‚³‚ê‚é’j«‚Í @http://cjbjj.com:112/ddd/hito-ot-f-sp/ œ–{“úAŠ®‘S–³—¿‚ʼnÎÆ‚Á‚½‘Ì‚ð–ž‚½‚µ‚Ä—~‚µ‚¢—«‚Í @http://cjbjj.com:112/ddd/hito-ot-f-sp/ ************************************************************** š‘Ò‡‚킹‚ÌêŠ‚ðƒŠƒAƒ‹ƒ^ƒCƒ€‚Å‚â‚èŽæ‚èŠm”F‚³‚ꂽ‚¢•û‚Í @ƒ‚ƒoƒCƒ‹iŒg‘Ñ“d˜bj‚Å‚ÌÝ’è‚ðƒIƒXƒXƒ’v‚µ‚Ü‚·B ************************************************************** From hanayuki846@sina.com Fri Mar 30 08:53:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXGbv-00064B-8V for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:53:43 -0400 Received: from [58.233.137.51] (helo=localhost.jp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXGbt-0006Wv-Ge for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:53:43 -0400 Received: (qmail 3046 invoked by uid 48); 30 Mar 2007 07:27:07 +0900 Date: 30 Mar 2007 07:27:07 +0900 To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org Subject: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?g0eDk4Nog4yDWFNFWIHLlOaC6oLwkm2C54LIgqKJu4KvlaiDSYNvg1SDk4Kyj9CJ7pJ2grWC3IK3=?= From: Message-ID: <20070330072707.96697@sina.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 **************************************************** “–ƒTƒCƒg‚Í20‘ã`50‘ã‚Ì“÷‘ÌŠÖŒW‚ð‹‚ß‚Ä‚¢‚élÈEn— ‚ªW‚Ü‚é“ú–{Å‘å‚Ì•s—σRƒ~ƒ…ƒjƒeƒB[ƒTƒCƒg‚Å‚·B **************************************************** s‚²—˜—p‚ÉŠÖ‚µ‚Ä‚Ì‚²’ˆÓt------------------------------- ‡T@‚²—˜—p‚Í’j—‹¤‚É•s—Ï‚ðŠó–]‚³‚ê‚é•û‚Ì‚Ý‚Æ‚³‚¹‚Ä’¸‚«‚Ü‚·B ‡U@’j—‹¤‚É‚¨‘ŠŽè‚É—v‹‚·‚鎖‚Í•s—ÏË“÷‘ÌŠÖŒW‚Ì‚Ý‚Å‚·B ‡V@ƒzƒeƒ‹‘ã‚ÉŠÖ‚µ‚Ä‚Í‚¨ŒÝ‚¢‚ÅŒˆ‚߂ĉº‚³‚¢B s‚²—˜—p•û–@‚ɂ‚¢‚Ät----------------------------------- ‡T@‚²Šó–]‚Ì’nˆæEƒ[ƒ‹ƒAƒhƒŒƒXEƒpƒXƒ[ƒh‚ðݒ肵‚Ä’¸‚«‚Ü‚·B ‡U@ŽŸ‚ÉŠÈ’P‚ÈŽ©ŒÈPR‚ðݒ肵‚Ä’¸‚«‚Ü‚·B ‡V@•s—ÏË“÷‘ÌŠÖŒW‚ðŠó–]‚·‚邨‘ŠŽè‚ðŒŸõ‚µ‚Ä’¸‚«‚Ü‚·B ‡W@‚²—˜—p‚³‚ê‚Ä‚¢‚élÈ‚³‚ñ‚Í‘S‚ÄŽ©ŒÈPR“à‚ÉŒg‘єԆ–”‚Í @@’¼ƒAƒhƒŒƒX‚ª•\Ž¦‚³‚ê‚Ä‚¨‚è‚Ü‚·‚Ì‚Å‚»‚ÌŽž“_‚Å’¼Ú‚²˜A—‚ð @@‚µ‚Ä’¸‚¢‚Ä‚àŒ‹\‚Å‚·‚µAƒTƒCƒg“à‚©‚çƒ[ƒ‹‚ɂĘA—‚ðŽæ‚é @@Ž–‚à‰Â”\‚Å‚·‚Ì‚Å‚¨D‚«‚ȘA—•û–@‚ÅŒð‚µ‚ĉº‚³‚¢B y’ˆÓzŽ©ŒÈPR“à‚ɘA—æ‚Ì•\Ž¦‚ª–³‚¢lÈ‚³‚ñ‚Í @@@@Œð‚ª¬—§‚µ“÷‘ÌŠÖŒW’†‚Å‚·‚̂ŘA—æ‚Ì•\Ž¦‚ª @@@@•œŠˆŒãAÄ“xŒðÂ‚ð‚¨Šè‚¢’v‚µ‚Ü‚·B ************************************************************** œ–{“úAŠ®‘S–³—¿‚Ån‚ꂽlÈ‚Æ“÷‘ÌŠÖŒW‚ðŠó–]‚³‚ê‚é’j«‚Í @http://cjbjj.com:112/ddd/hito-ot-f-sp/ œ–{“úAŠ®‘S–³—¿‚ʼnÎÆ‚Á‚½‘Ì‚ð–ž‚½‚µ‚Ä—~‚µ‚¢—«‚Í @http://cjbjj.com:112/ddd/hito-ot-f-sp/ ************************************************************** š‘Ò‡‚킹‚ÌêŠ‚ðƒŠƒAƒ‹ƒ^ƒCƒ€‚Å‚â‚èŽæ‚èŠm”F‚³‚ꂽ‚¢•û‚Í @ƒ‚ƒoƒCƒ‹iŒg‘Ñ“d˜bj‚Å‚ÌÝ’è‚ðƒIƒXƒXƒ’v‚µ‚Ü‚·B ************************************************************** From voawn@jnl.be Fri Mar 30 09:39:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXHJr-0005cu-Ef for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 09:39:07 -0400 Received: from esf133.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.20.125.133] helo=jnl.be) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXHJq-00073d-0Q for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 09:39:07 -0400 Message-ID: <03aa01c77301$3baf82b0$8018a2e0@punk> Reply-To: "VOscar VSilva" From: "VOscar VSilva" To: Subject: Re: copenhagen juanita Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:39:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.4682 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.4682 X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Bull is Calling Critical C A R E New SYm-C.C.T.I Cannot go wrong at 16 cents This is projected to go to $1 This one is Guaranteed to double in next 2 days Get in this gem tomorrow, Catch an easy doubler!! you or anything,'' Iverson said. ''It just feels good. It just feels like Nuggets. ... Nash, the NBA's assist leader at 11.6 a game, had just two assists points - since their 129-127 double-overtime win at Dallas on Wednesday night. the Nuggets took a 70-44 lead into the locker room. Iverson's drive to the ----- Original Message ----- From: "VOscar VSilva" To: Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 8:27 PM Subject: copenhagen juanita > Bull is Calling > Critical C A R E New > SYm-C.C.T.I > Cannot go wrong at 16 cents > This is projected to go to $1 From andy.wise@britexams.com Fri Mar 30 10:05:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXHj3-0002Sa-4a; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:05:09 -0400 Received: from [59.3.57.27] (helo=PC27) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXHiz-0006Gz-9X; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:05:09 -0400 Received: from 216.40.35.34 (HELO webmaillogin.com) by ietf.org with esmtp (Q'5K(:3? LL:0=) id )6A2JR-1))XAA-8* for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:05:05 -0900 Message-ID: <01c772d4$6b0c7440$6c822ecf@andy.wise> From: "Lottie Tomlinson" To: Subject: Pc Updated Alexander Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:05:05 -0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7731F.DAF41C40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7731F.DAF41C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ADOBE PHOTOSHOP CS2 V 9.0 $69.95 AUTODESK AUTOCAD 2007 $129.95 ADOBE=20= CREATIVE SUITE 2 PREMIUM $149.95 ADOBE ACROBAT 8.0 PROFESSIONAL $79.95=20= MICROSOFT WINDOWS XP PROFESSIONAL SP2 $49.95 MACROMEDIA DREAMWEAVER 8=20= $49.95 CORELDRAW GRAPHICS SUITE X3 $59.95 MICROSOFT WINDOWS VISTA=20= BUSINESS $79.95 MICROSOFT OFFICE 2007 ENTERPRISE $79.95=20= http://oemsuivse.euSTART DOWNLOADING ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7731F.DAF41C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7731F.DAF41C40-- From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Mar 30 14:21:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXLig-0004RF-VO for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:21:02 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXLif-0003DN-K0 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:21:02 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HXLYZ-000L2F-FW for ccamp-data@psg.com; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 18:10:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [156.154.16.138] (helo=ns1.neustar.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HXLYV-000L1t-Ht for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 18:10:33 +0000 Received: from ietf.org (stiedprweb1.va.neustar.com [10.91.34.42]) by ns1.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C20B326E7E; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 18:10:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mirror by ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HXLYU-00054A-MM; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:10:30 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Jones Cc: Stephen Trowbridge , Kam Lam , Ross Callon , Dave Ward , Scott Bradner , CCAMP Mailing List , Deborah Brungard , Adrian Farrel , Deborah Brungard , Adrian Farrel , Deborah Brungard From: Adrian Farrel (IETF CCAMP WG) Subject: New Liaison Statement, "New CCAMP RFCs Published" Reply-To: Adrian Farrel Message-Id: Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:10:30 -0400 Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bdc523f9a54890b8a30dd6fd53d5d024 Title: New CCAMP RFCs Published Submission Date: 2007-03-30 URL of the IETF Web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=310 From: Adrian Farrel(IETF CCAMP WG) To: ITU-T SG15(Greg Jones ) Cc: Stephen Trowbridge Kam Lam Ross Callon Dave Ward Scott Bradner CCAMP Mailing List Deborah Brungard Reponse Contact: Adrian Farrel Deborah Brungard Technical Contact: Adrian Farrel Deborah Brungard Purpose: For information Body: The CCAMP working group of the IETF would like to inform you of the publication of three new RFCs (Request for Comment) that may be relevant to your work. RFC 4801 Title Definitions of Textual Conventions for Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Management Abstract This document defines a Management Information Base (MIB) module that contains textual conventions (TCs) to represent commonly used Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) management information. The intent is that these textual conventions will be imported and used in GMPLS- related MIB modules that would otherwise define their own representations. RFC 4802 Title Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering Management Information Base Abstract This memo defines a portion of the Management Information Base (MIB) for use with network management protocols in the Internet community. In particular, it describes managed objects for Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS)-based traffic engineering. RFC 4803 Title Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switching Router (LSR) Management Information Base Abstract This memo defines a portion of the Management Information Base (MIB) for use with network management protocols in the Internet community. In particular, it describes managed objects to configure and/or monitor a Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switching Router (LSR). All IETF RFCs can be downloaded for free from http://www.ietf.org/rfc.html The current work plan and progress status of the CCAMP working group can be viewed at http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/ccamp-charter.html As always, the CCAMP working group welcomes questions and discussion about all of its work from individuals or organisations. The CCAMP mailing list is open to anyone. Details of subscription can be found on the CCAMP charter page. Best regards, Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group Attachment(s): No document has been attached From mohandasjoey@tdktech.com Fri Mar 30 17:18:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXOUm-0002Vz-2x for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 17:18:52 -0400 Received: from m203.net81-67-149.noos.fr ([81.67.149.203] helo=olfa) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXOUj-0001yz-4C for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 17:18:52 -0400 To: "lemmie zola" Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 23:18:46 +0200 From: "lyon toinette" Sender: "lyon toinette" Subject: Avis MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <9f2401c77311$005f91d0$cb954351@olfa> Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_9B13_01C77321.B34161B0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.2 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 2b3349545af520ba354ccdc9e1a03fc1 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_9B13_01C77321.B34161B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_9B14_01C77321.B34161B0" ------=_NextPart_001_9B14_01C77321.B34161B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lucky the bell-still full and deep of throat, Cuts out of its width (81). Unfair With sun's warmth wasted on a stone, Rain. We are forced to fly, Glimmering of light: at balls hit again and again toward her offspring. V. The Dutch in the Arctic Beneath the snowflakes I notice fa=E7ades Suddenly, in a savage, dreadful bend, But snow has gathered there, has piled up, XX. To the Pole Snow haze gleams like sand. Stunned in their voiceless way to be alive Place of absorbing snow, itself to be Where lamps are lit: these, too, Choces, M=E8re and P=E8re, undreaming even of fields A rabbit carcass in its stiffened fur. XII. The Mystery of the Missing Ships: The Franklin Search Never does any motion, sound, or light ------=_NextPart_001_9B14_01C77321.B34161B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lucky the bell—still full and deep of throat,
Cuts out of its width (81). Unfair
With sun's warmth wasted on a stone,
Rain. We are forced to fly,
Glimmering of light:
at balls hit again and again toward her offspring.
V. The Dutch in the Arctic
Beneath the snowflakes I notice façades
Suddenly, in a savage, dreadful bend,
But snow has gathered there, has piled up,
XX. To the Pole
Snow haze gleams like sand.
Stunned in their voiceless way to be alive
Place of absorbing snow, itself to be
Where lamps are lit: these, too,
Choces, Mère and Père, undreaming even of fields
A rabbit carcass in its stiffened fur.
XII. The Mystery of the Missing Ships: The Franklin Search
Never does any motion, sound, or light
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P5bgc3z7Uyf93vet+l6/viADCX8sJj+Kj9/+/2Xe+D2RFDXdZBQf93nf2wRg4FSe2jnf7bTf7bFe FNGfy1XfBFZe32Xd2S0V73Ge/8XeHuke9Dnf/RmRATZN8C3fwByMFdmcy9UeC+If0i3NsGggDLYg BL1g+AEfydmg35zVDwLfL+kcAbqgDQmhyPHeyw2Q+smcE6ZSCqqgRE3hj1ghWmDh4HyUFr5IF0LF F6ZFGM4JwRlKGTbHGMqbGq4hSxu2oRu+IRzGoRzOIR3WoR3eIR7moR7uIR/2oR/+ISAGoiAOIiEW oiEeIiImoiIuIiM2oiM+IiRGoiROIiVWoiVeIiZmoiZuohBEAAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_9B13_01C77321.B34161B0-- From teresitaclaudette@brandonbatson.com Sat Mar 31 05:16:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXZh0-0001Ox-Jj for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 05:16:14 -0400 Received: from [82.77.118.177] (helo=dark) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXZgy-0008JK-Le for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 05:16:14 -0400 To: "sigismundo jessa" Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:16:12 +0100 From: "ida katina" Sender: "ida katina" Subject: Seth MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_CC8F_01C7738E.55545950" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 1094b1c84fa6e846d476f39271f5074f This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_CC8F_01C7738E.55545950 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_CC90_01C7738E.55545950" ------=_NextPart_001_CC90_01C7738E.55545950 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A kind of snow, which hesitates Preface to the 1970 Edition Floating on the sky. Down the long course of the gray slush of things To follow in the path of their brief blossoming on their own little seat cushions, wearing soft caps Oh you builders, into early blooming. Then, the inevitable blizzard With its lament, it often sounds, instead, Astonished that you have returned to go In search of brighter green to come. No way! Against this sky no longer of our world. Given by nature will soak into it. Standing in the way of the truth. A white And M=E8re Chose's square of world, even as they That this mud draws on the stone. P=E8re and M=E8re Chose could be in conversation Cuts out of its width (81). Unfair watching calisthenics from the grandstands. ------=_NextPart_001_CC90_01C7738E.55545950 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
A kind of snow, which hesitates
Preface to the 1970 Edition
Floating on the sky.
Down the long course of the gray slush of things
To follow in the path of their brief blossoming
on their own little seat cushions, wearing soft caps
Oh you builders,
into early blooming. Then, the inevitable blizzard
With its lament, it often sounds, instead,
Astonished that you have returned to go
In search of brighter green to come. No way!
Against this sky no longer of our world.
Given by nature will soak into it.
Standing in the way of the truth. A white
And Mère Chose's square of world, even as they
That this mud draws on the stone.
Père and Mère Chose could be in conversation
Cuts out of its width (81). Unfair
watching calisthenics from the grandstands.
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Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 5ba9b8496764663b12c333825fbf6b3d This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_5706_01C773CF.CE0691B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_5707_01C773CF.CE0691B0" ------=_NextPart_001_5707_01C773CF.CE0691B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable V. The Dutch in the Arctic demonstrating their talent for comedy=97stroke V. The Dutch in the Arctic Life, or only joy, that stands out I. Further Exploration of Spitsbergen To have been claimed by what we see of what So, startled, quivering, And the wide arrowhead the road itself My soul lies cracked; and when, in its despair, XV. The International Circumpolar Stations: The Greely Expedition Suddenly, in a savage, dreadful bend, But when, on the timepieces that we call It is as though I were at a second threshold. Pierced by the mist that fades away, Out of the road into a way across In dense bare branches, or the ubiquitous =97The place the road ends, that patch of white paint So, startled, quivering, What can we know of whatever picture-plane ------=_NextPart_001_5707_01C773CF.CE0691B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
V. The Dutch in the Arctic
demonstrating their talent for comedy—stroke
V. The Dutch in the Arctic
Life, or only joy, that stands out
I. Further Exploration of Spitsbergen
To have been claimed by what we see of what
So, startled, quivering,
And the wide arrowhead the road itself
My soul lies cracked; and when, in its despair,
XV. The International Circumpolar Stations: The Greely Expedition
Suddenly, in a savage, dreadful bend,
But when, on the timepieces that we call
It is as though I were at a second threshold.
Pierced by the mist that fades away,
Out of the road into a way across
In dense bare branches, or the ubiquitous
—The place the road ends, that patch of white paint
So, startled, quivering,
What can we know of whatever picture-plane
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49a/cv+f4I8Z+VvMk/Rv0/33kv/obbL5tvL/euyfpA0gARagAR4gAiagAi4gAzagAz4gBEagBE4g BVagBV4gBmagBm4gB3agB34gCIagCI4gCZagCZ4gCqagCq4gC7agC74gDMagDM4gDdagKUUAADs= ------=_NextPart_000_5706_01C773CF.CE0691B0-- From nhusophism@porticoproducts.com Sat Mar 31 10:29:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXeZh-0002a5-1s for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 10:29:01 -0400 Received: from ekf226.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.21.173.226] helo=porticoproducts.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXeZc-0002dD-2m for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 10:29:01 -0400 Message-ID: <08bb01c77403$3daf61a0$1973f4e0@dnamer> Reply-To: "Graciec Rex" From: "Graciec Rex" To: Subject: Re: He cop Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 01:34:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: 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The native of Falls Church, Va., spent ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graciec Rex" To: Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 8:27 PM Subject: He cop > Check this company out > Critical C A R E New > SYmb-C_C_T_I > Stron g B reccomended at 18 Cents > This is projected to go to $1 From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sat Mar 31 17:34:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXlD2-0000Dh-E2 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:34:04 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HXlCz-0006Ui-25 for ccamp-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:34:04 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HXl3A-0005iV-Jq for ccamp-data@psg.com; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:23:52 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.1.7 Received: from [62.179.120.12] (helo=amsfep17-int.chello.nl) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HXl37-0005iC-Oc for ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:23:51 +0000 Received: from [192.168.17.3] (really [62.195.168.62]) by amsfep17-int.chello.nl (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with ESMTP id <20070331212341.GSXZ4177.amsfep17-int.chello.nl@[192.168.17.3]>; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 23:23:41 +0200 Message-ID: <460ED15C.9040404@chello.nl> Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 23:23:40 +0200 From: Huub van Helvoort User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adrian Farrel CC: "Lam, Hing-Kam \(Kam\)" , ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT References: <30839666.1175153854204.JavaMail.root@amsfep17> <0eef01c77211$1b034c80$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> In-Reply-To: <0eef01c77211$1b034c80$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Hello Adrian, You wondered: > Huub, Kam, > > Should we also liaise the VCAT/LCAS work to Q11/15? > > Or is it enough to send it to SG15 and let the TSB work out who should > get it? Since you already know that both Q14 and Q11 are involved you may as well direct the liaison to both questions. Cheers, Huub. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:26:59 +0000 Message-ID: <460ED15C.9040404@chello.nl> Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 23:23:40 +0200 From: Huub van Helvoort User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adrian Farrel CC: "Lam, Hing-Kam \(Kam\)" , ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Adrian, You wondered: > Huub, Kam, > > Should we also liaise the VCAT/LCAS work to Q11/15? > > Or is it enough to send it to SG15 and let the TSB work out who should > get it? Since you already know that both Q14 and Q11 are involved you may as well direct the liaison to both questions. Cheers, Huub. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 18:13:01 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Jones Cc: Stephen Trowbridge , Kam Lam , Ross Callon , Dave Ward , Scott Bradner , CCAMP Mailing List , Deborah Brungard , Adrian Farrel , Deborah Brungard , Adrian Farrel , Deborah Brungard From: Adrian Farrel (IETF CCAMP WG) Subject: New Liaison Statement, "New CCAMP RFCs Published" Reply-To: Adrian Farrel Message-Id: Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:10:30 -0400 Title: New CCAMP RFCs Published Submission Date: 2007-03-30 URL of the IETF Web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=310 From: Adrian Farrel(IETF CCAMP WG) To: ITU-T SG15(Greg Jones ) Cc: Stephen Trowbridge Kam Lam Ross Callon Dave Ward Scott Bradner CCAMP Mailing List Deborah Brungard Reponse Contact: Adrian Farrel Deborah Brungard Technical Contact: Adrian Farrel Deborah Brungard Purpose: For information Body: The CCAMP working group of the IETF would like to inform you of the publication of three new RFCs (Request for Comment) that may be relevant to your work. RFC 4801 Title Definitions of Textual Conventions for Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Management Abstract This document defines a Management Information Base (MIB) module that contains textual conventions (TCs) to represent commonly used Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) management information. The intent is that these textual conventions will be imported and used in GMPLS- related MIB modules that would otherwise define their own representations. RFC 4802 Title Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering Management Information Base Abstract This memo defines a portion of the Management Information Base (MIB) for use with network management protocols in the Internet community. In particular, it describes managed objects for Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS)-based traffic engineering. RFC 4803 Title Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switching Router (LSR) Management Information Base Abstract This memo defines a portion of the Management Information Base (MIB) for use with network management protocols in the Internet community. In particular, it describes managed objects to configure and/or monitor a Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switching Router (LSR). All IETF RFCs can be downloaded for free from http://www.ietf.org/rfc.html The current work plan and progress status of the CCAMP working group can be viewed at http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/ccamp-charter.html As always, the CCAMP working group welcomes questions and discussion about all of its work from individuals or organisations. The CCAMP mailing list is open to anyone. Details of subscription can be found on the CCAMP charter page. Best regards, Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group Attachment(s): No document has been attached Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:38:57 +0000 Message-ID: <0fe601c77252$cb85d960$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Subject: Fw: DISCUSS: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:36:30 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I think we may have reached closure on the security issues with the Call I-D. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Hartman" To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 5:55 PM Subject: DISCUSS: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call > Discuss: > [This discuss does actually have its roots in my previous discuss. I > realize it is not obvious. There have been a lot of side discussions] > > One use case of the call concept raises security concerns. In > particular, calls are being proposed so that you can authenticate to a > call server using an end-to-end notify, get some policy goop and that > goop can be used for policy decisions like whether to accept your > call. The problem is that this creates a situation where new security > associtaions are required that for the most part typically do not come > up in RSVP today even though end-to-end notify is already supported. > That triggers RFC 4107 analysis and a very high probability that > mandatory automated key management is required. We don't want to > block this document on that. > > > I propose the following: > > old: > Note, additionally, that the process of independent Call > establishment, where the Call is set up separately from the LSPs, may > be used to apply an extra level of authentication and policy for the > end-to-end LSPs above that which is available with Call-less, > hop-by-hop LSP setup. > > new: Note, additionally, that it would be desirable to use the process > of independent Call establishment, where the Call is set up > separately from the LSPs, to apply an extra level of authentication > and policy for the end-to-end LSPs above that which is available > with Call-less, hop-by-hop LSP setup. However doing so will > require additional work to set up security associations between the > peer and the call manager that meet the requirements of RFC 4107. > The mechanism described in this document is expected to meet this > use case when combined with this additional work. Application of > this mechanism to the authentication and policy use case prior to > standardization of a security solution is inappropriate and outside > the current applicability of the mechanism. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:44:44 +0000 Message-ID: <0f3d01c77219$0606db50$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ross Callon" , "Dave Ward" , "Scott Bradner" Subject: Another draft liaison to SG15: Call/Connection Separation Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:53:41 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, A small liaison just to close down on a technical point. Comments by end of Tuesday 3rd April, please. Adrian and Deborah === To: ITU-T SG15 Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Ross Callon; Dave Ward; Scott Bradner Subject: Call/Connection Separation in ASON and GMPLS For Comment Deadline: 11th May 2007 The CCAMP working group of the IETF thanks you for your liaison "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" (Q14/15 - LS 1 - E) dated March 2007. This liaison continues a discussion on the logical separation of calls and connections. The substance of this conversation is as follows: SG15 to CCAMP COM 15 - LS 126 - E dated November 2006 1. Call/Connection architecture and realization approaches Attachment 2 below provides further elaboration of application scenarios that illustrate G.8080 call/connection control component interactions. The G.8080 architecture may be employed to support various call control realization approaches. It should be noted that the architecture does not dictate any particular implementation and we would request that any solution not impose such limitations. We observe that Section 3.2 of explicitly prohibits logical call/connection control separation; i.e., call communications "piggy-backing" on connection communications. CCAMP to SG15 Dated 21st February 2007 Regarding your comments on 2.0 It is important to recognize that [this draft] introduces Call mechanisms into GMPLS as a generic tool. As noted in Section 2, while the mechanisms of this document meet the requirements in RFC 4139, they are intended to have wider applicability than ASON. RFC 4139 details the requirements for ASON. The application of the GMPLS Call to the ASON architecture in order to satisfy the requirements for conveying ASON Call information across a GMPLS interface and for managing ASON Calls at a GMPLS UNI or GMPLS ENNI will require a new Applicability Draft. Thus, section 3.2 of this document does not imply anything about ASON, and certainly not that ASON requires full and logical call/connection separation. We understand that ASON Calls may be implemented through full call/connection separation (as in G.7713.3) or call/connection 'piggybacking' as in G.7713.2. Please confirm that our interpretation of G.8080 and G.7713 is correct. SG15 to CCAMP Q14/15-LS1-E dated March 2007 Regarding call and connection separation the liaison states: "We understand that ASON Calls may be implemented through full call/connection separation (as in G.7713.3) or call/connection 'piggybacking' as in G.7713.2. Please confirm that our interpretation of G.8080 and G.7713 is correct." ASON requires full logical separation of the call and connection which may be implemented with separate or piggybacked call and connection signalling. We would like to complete this discussion by reiterating that draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-04.txt defines mechanisms that provide full and logical Call/Connection separation. Your initial interpretation of section 3.2 of draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-01.txt was incorrect and the text states now (and stated then) that "Full and logical Call and Connection separation is required." If you have any further concerns about how call and connection separation is achieved in this work, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP working group Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:50:15 +0000 Message-ID: <0eef01c77211$1b034c80$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: , "Lam, Hing-Kam \(Kam\)" Cc: Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:46:09 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Huub, Kam, Should we also liaise the VCAT/LCAS work to Q11/15? Or is it enough to send it to SG15 and let the TSB work out who should get it? Thanks, Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; "Adrian Farrel" Cc: "Scott Bradner" ; "Dave Ward" ; "Ross Callon" ; "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 8:37 AM Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT > Hello Adrian, > > I agree with what you propose, apart from a small > editorial change, see in-line [hvh] > > Cheers, Huub. > ------------------------------ > >> Here is the second draft liaison to go to ITU-T SG15. >> >> Again, comments by end of 3rd April, please. >> >> (Plenty more to follow, but we will try to turn them out a few at a >> time.) >> >> Thanks, >> Adrian and Deborah >> >> === >> >> To: ITU-T SG15 >> From: IETF CCAMP >> Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward >> Subject: VCAT/LCAS Work in CCAMP >> For Comment >> Deadline: 25th June 2007 >> >> The CCAMP working group thanks you for your liaison "Liaison Statement to >> CCAMP regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" dated March 2007. >> >> We are not sure that the Internet-Draft >> draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt does use mechanisms defined by >> ITU-T >> SG 15 in Recommendations G.7041 and G.7042. We believe that the intention >> is >> to enable the use of such mechanisms in a GMPLS network > > [hvh] recommendation G.7041 does not contain any VCAT/LCAS > mechanism (it is the GFP definition), G.7042 is the generic LCAS > definition. PDH VCAT is defined in G.7043, SDH/SONET VCAT in G.707 and OTN > VCAT in G.709. > G.7042, G.7043, G.707 and G.709 are referenced in > draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01 > I propose to remove G.7041 or replace it by G.7043. > (yes, it is in the original SG15 liaison text, but it is not > necessary to repeat the typo) > >> Nevertheless, we note your interest in this work and would welcome your >> comments especially with respect to the applicability of this work to an >> ASON network. >> >> The current published version of this work can be found at >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt. >> Please note, however, that a new version of this draft is currently being >> prepared by the authors that makes extensive changes to the published >> material. Therefore, while we would welcome your comments, we suggest >> that >> you do not invest heavily in a detailed review at this stage. >> >> We will liaise future versions of this Internet-Draft to you as they >> become >> available. >> >> Best regards, >> Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard >> Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group > > > > Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:40:21 +0000 Message-ID: <0eab01c771f6$f7e10040$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: , Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:39:36 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Huub, I will make changes accordingly. A ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; "Adrian Farrel" Cc: "Scott Bradner" ; "Dave Ward" ; "Ross Callon" ; "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 8:37 AM Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT > Hello Adrian, > > I agree with what you propose, apart from a small > editorial change, see in-line [hvh] > > Cheers, Huub. > ------------------------------ > >> Here is the second draft liaison to go to ITU-T SG15. >> >> Again, comments by end of 3rd April, please. >> >> (Plenty more to follow, but we will try to turn them out a few at a >> time.) >> >> Thanks, >> Adrian and Deborah >> >> === >> >> To: ITU-T SG15 >> From: IETF CCAMP >> Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward >> Subject: VCAT/LCAS Work in CCAMP >> For Comment >> Deadline: 25th June 2007 >> >> The CCAMP working group thanks you for your liaison "Liaison Statement to >> CCAMP regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" dated March 2007. >> >> We are not sure that the Internet-Draft >> draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt does use mechanisms defined by >> ITU-T >> SG 15 in Recommendations G.7041 and G.7042. We believe that the intention >> is >> to enable the use of such mechanisms in a GMPLS network > > [hvh] recommendation G.7041 does not contain any VCAT/LCAS > mechanism (it is the GFP definition), G.7042 is the generic LCAS > definition. PDH VCAT is defined in G.7043, SDH/SONET VCAT in G.707 and OTN > VCAT in G.709. > G.7042, G.7043, G.707 and G.709 are referenced in > draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01 > I propose to remove G.7041 or replace it by G.7043. > (yes, it is in the original SG15 liaison text, but it is not > necessary to repeat the typo) > >> Nevertheless, we note your interest in this work and would welcome your >> comments especially with respect to the applicability of this work to an >> ASON network. >> >> The current published version of this work can be found at >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt. >> Please note, however, that a new version of this draft is currently being >> prepared by the authors that makes extensive changes to the published >> material. Therefore, while we would welcome your comments, we suggest >> that >> you do not invest heavily in a detailed review at this stage. >> >> We will liaise future versions of this Internet-Draft to you as they >> become >> available. >> >> Best regards, >> Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard >> Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group > > > > Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:34:33 +0000 Message-ID: <0e5101c771f5$bf431800$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ross Callon" , "Dave Ward" , "Scott Bradner" Subject: Draft liaison to ITU SG15 on process Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:21:43 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, One of the larger issues raised by a recent liaison from ITU-T Study Group 15 is on process and how we can continue to build a better relationship between SG15 and CCAMP. Here is a draft response. Comments please by end of April 5th. Thanks, Adrian and Deborah === To: ITU-T SG15 From: IETF CCAMP Cc: Yoichi Maeda, Stephen Trowbridge, Kam Lam, Scott Bradner, Ross Callon, Dave Ward For Action Deadline: 25th June 2007 Subject: Cooperative Relationship between ITU-T SG15 and CCAMP CCAMP thanks you for your liaison entitled "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007". The last paragraphs of your liaison discuss the cooperative relationship between ITU-T SG15 and the IETF's CCAMP working group and we would like to respond to these issues separate from the technical discussions. Over the last few years we have seen an increase in cooperation between our organisations, and we believe that this is to the considerable benefit of the industry. CCAMP has regularly sent a liaison representative to ITU plenary and interim meetings, and useful comments and feedback have been received from these meetings as a result of review of IETF Internet-Drafts in progress. Additionally, Mr. Lyndon Ong has been allocated a regular slot on the CCAMP meeting agenda at each IETF meeting to update the working group on the progress of the ITU-T in areas of interest to CCAMP. While we consider that the free flow of information and the review feedback on CCAMP work to be very valuable, we are also conscious that the mechanisms of the ITU-T and IETF are very different. Therefore we make every attempt to avoid wasting your precious meeting time, and only ask for review when we consider the material to be stable and pertinent. In your liaison, you say: ITU-T SG 15 has been relying on a collaborative relationship with IETF ccamp to provide the protocol support for ASON. This collaborative work should allow the industry to take advantage of the different expertise in each of the Standards Development Organizations. Q.14/15 has not developed protocol specific Recommendations for ASON since 2003, based on an expected collaborative technical relationship, in which IETF ccamp would provide protocol solutions that fully meet the ITU-T ASON requirements. We appreciate your engagement with this process and we believe that it is to the best interests of the industry and to all participants in both bodies. In order to crystallise this process, the IETF has recently published RFC 4775 ("Procedures for Protocol Extensions and Variations") and has just consented for publication draft-andersson-rtg-gmpls-change-08.txt ("Change Process for Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Protocols and Procedures"). The net effect of these documents is to give the ITU-T clear access into the IETF process and to commit the IETF to work with the ITU-T to develop solutions to requirements that originate in the ITU-T. You state further: However, the effectiveness of this SDO liaison relationship could be improved. We agree that there is always room for improvements on both sides. Some issues will arise from differences in established behaviour within the two bodies, and we are always grateful when you point out opportunities to improve the mechanisms that we have in place. Although neither the ITU-T nor the IETF is likely to make a major change to its operational procedures, there are doubtless very many small areas where improvements could be made. One such area of improvement might be to relax the communication style and mechanisms allowing a more free and rapid exchange of technical opinions amongst the participants. Although this cannot replace the liaison relationship as a means for exchanging the official and consented views of each body, we could gain a lot from increasing the level of discussion rather than relying on the relatively infrequent use of liaison statements. We would welcome your suggestions on how to achieve this - the CCAMP mailing list remains open and might be a suitable vehicle for this type of communication. As you go on to say: We observe that IETF ccamp has responded to some of the technical issues raised by suggesting that the ITU-T participants should provide input directly, to the work in ccamp. We agree that having participants involved in both the ITU-T and IETF improves the communication process. We would like to confirm that this individual participation is not being suggested as a substitute for the liaison relationship. A liaison statement or ITU-T Recommendation represents the consensus of the members of the ITU-T. An individual participating in the work of ccamp is not authorized to represent or negotiate on behalf of the ITU-T. We understand the points you make. Nevertheless, we would like to continue to encourage individual participation. Individuals who are interested in the development rather than the review of protocol solutions would be well advised to bring their ideas to CCAMP early in the process. In the same way, we would advise individuals interested in the work of the ITU-T to become involved there and not to wait for the opportunity to review the material when it is liaised to the IETF as it nears completion. You cite a specific area for improvement in your liaison, and we are grateful for your attempt to isolate specifics since it is far more easy to learn from examples than from general statements. One particular area for improvement of the liaison relationship is communicating the disposition of ITU-T comments related to the interpretation of ASON requirements. For example comments provided on, draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-reqts-02 (now RFC 4258) and draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing eval-00 (now RFC 4652) were not included in the published RFC and the rational for this decision has not been communicated. We are disturbed by your identification of these specific concerns at this time in our communication. Due to the time that has lapsed since the events that you mention, it is hard to provide appropriate and definitive discussion. We believe that the discussion of RFC 4258 and lack of response refers to a liaison received from SG15 in February 2004. Although the issues received full discussion on an open mailing list and included comments from no fewer than seven regular Q14/15 participants, and although the design team that produced the final text of the RFC included Q14/15 participants who could have reported the agreement and rationale back to Q14/15, we agree that it would have been helpful to liaise the outcome of these discussions to you direct. In a subsequent liaison (COM15-LS18) in April 2004, where you stated: Q.14/15 would like to thank the IETF CCAMP WG and especially the members of the ASON Routing Requirements Design Team for their efforts to understand and capture ASON Routing Requirements for the future work in IETF. Q.14/15 would like to continue cooperative work with IETF, extending this to the application of routing protocols to support the ASON requirements. We interpreted these sentences to mean that you were aware of the completion of RFC4258 and that you were satisfied with the results. Review of the material that led to RFC 4652 was first liaised to CCAMP by SG15 in May 2005 (COM 15-LS57-E) in response to a request for review issued by CCAMP earlier that same month. The liaison from SG15 was marked "For Information" and our understanding of this label (as noted in section 2.2.1.1.6 of RFC 4053) is that "The liaison statement is to inform the addressee of something, and expects no response." In the light of the current situation it would have been wise for the chairs to have confirmed that this was really the intended purpose of the liaison, but we should note that 50% of the author team for RFC 4652 were regular Q14/15 attendees who could have reported the status and decisions (albeit informally) to the Question. Subsequent liaisons on the material of RFC 4652 included: November 2005 (Q12-14 Interim meeting-LS006-E) "Q.14/15 ... strongly supports CCAMP's continued work to address ASON requirements in the routing protocols." Your recent liaison concludes: ITU-T SG15 continues to be interested in providing clarification or validation of IETF ccamp interpretation of the ASON requirements and therefore request that in future any documents under development that are potentially applicable to ASON be liaised so that ITU-T can validate the documents against the ASON requirements. We look forward to receiving your response and hope that we can continue to build a cooperative and productive relationship between ccamp and SG 15. While we cannot promise to send every piece of work that is potentially applicable to ASON, we can and will liaise all work where there is a definitive intention of applicability to ASON. CCAMP continues to be grateful to SG15 for its efforts to ensure that the ASON architecture and requirements are correctly interpreted, and appreciates that this will lead to protocol solutions that are of value to the industry. Best regards, Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:34:25 +0000 Message-ID: <0e5301c771f5$c1cb97a0$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ross Callon" , "Dave Ward" , "Scott Bradner" Subject: Update: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG15 : MLN work Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:27:17 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone more awake than I has noticed that a liaison from SG15 in February 2004 appeared to say that MLN was not of interest to ASON. Although things have probably moved on since then, we should check to find out the current situation. So the draft changes as follows... To: ITU-T SG15 Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward Subject: Multi-Layer Networking (MLN) Work in CCAMP For Action Deadline: 18th May 2007 The CCAMP working group notes your request to review its work on Multi-Layer Networking (MLN) as indicated in your liaison "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" dated March 2007. We are nearing completion of our analysis of the requirements for MLN, and our evaluation of existing protocols, so now is an appropriate time for you review this material, and we would be grateful for your comments on or before the deadline marked above. The requirements work can be found at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-reqs-02.txt The protocol evaluation is at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-eval-02.txt In your review of this material, it may be helpful to pay particular care to understand the definition of MLN that is used. It may also be helpful to use some of the terminology interpretation presented in RFC4397. The CCAMP working group also anticipates working on protocol extensions to fill the lacunae identified by the protocol evaluation Internet-Draft. An individual submission on this subject may be found at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-papadimitriou-ccamp-gmpls-mrn-extensions-03.txt, but the working group has yet to make a decision about whether to accept this as the basis for the work. We note that in a liaison dated February 2004 discussing the signaling requirements for ASON and reviewing draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-reqts-05.txt you said: 11. G.8080 defines the ASON control plane as applying to a single layer. Some examples in the draft involve multiple layers. While not precluded by implementations, a suggested replacement example is contained in the marked up copy that is single layer. Could you please confirm your current view of the definition of the ASON control plane in G.8080. Does the ASON control plane now apply to more than one layer? Could you please provide references to the appropriate sections of your Recommendations. Best regards, Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:39:02 +0000 Message-ID: <30839666.1175153854204.JavaMail.root@amsfep17> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 7:37:34 +0000 From: To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Adrian Farrel Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Cc: Scott Bradner , Dave Ward , Ross Callon , "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sensitivity: Normal Hello Adrian, I agree with what you propose, apart from a small editorial change, see in-line [hvh] Cheers, Huub. ------------------------------ > Here is the second draft liaison to go to ITU-T SG15. > > Again, comments by end of 3rd April, please. > > (Plenty more to follow, but we will try to turn them out a few at a time.) > > Thanks, > Adrian and Deborah > > === > > To: ITU-T SG15 > From: IETF CCAMP > Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward > Subject: VCAT/LCAS Work in CCAMP > For Comment > Deadline: 25th June 2007 > > The CCAMP working group thanks you for your liaison "Liaison Statement to > CCAMP regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" dated March 2007. > > We are not sure that the Internet-Draft > draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt does use mechanisms defined by ITU-T > SG 15 in Recommendations G.7041 and G.7042. We believe that the intention is > to enable the use of such mechanisms in a GMPLS network [hvh] recommendation G.7041 does not contain any VCAT/LCAS mechanism (it is the GFP definition), G.7042 is the generic LCAS definition. PDH VCAT is defined in G.7043, SDH/SONET VCAT in G.707 and OTN VCAT in G.709. G.7042, G.7043, G.707 and G.709 are referenced in draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01 I propose to remove G.7041 or replace it by G.7043. (yes, it is in the original SG15 liaison text, but it is not necessary to repeat the typo) > Nevertheless, we note your interest in this work and would welcome your > comments especially with respect to the applicability of this work to an > ASON network. > > The current published version of this work can be found at > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt. > Please note, however, that a new version of this draft is currently being > prepared by the authors that makes extensive changes to the published > material. Therefore, while we would welcome your comments, we suggest that > you do not invest heavily in a detailed review at this stage. > > We will liaise future versions of this Internet-Draft to you as they become > available. > > Best regards, > Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard > Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 06:26:05 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.2.5.060620 Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 02:24:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT From: Monique Morrow To: Adrian Farrel , CC: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , Ross Callon , Dave Ward , Scott Bradner Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Thread-Index: AcdxyutlKeDJ9d2+EduENQANk8LkKg== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1775; t=1175149476; x=1176013476; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=mmorrow@cisco.com; z=From:=20Monique=20Morrow=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20Draft=20liaison=20to=20ITU-T=20SG=2015=20=3A=20VCAT |Sender:=20; bh=pIRX/5N3dA6+MWGi9vmGFlz5Vb7O3OIvqM/S3rFPXwU=; b=G2Ttjr77rRynzodpuGeLyKqMuNKPlCJNZi45KV6wCvZWeQZz5YdMHn4z1Ls7OsjEjKV+w3Jf ydGJrWDSGis8FGpqHTCY83luWsHrmfGSbe30ZxS1ox324mbMzNuBJiDS; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=mmorrow@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); Looks fine - thanks again! /m On 28/3/07 3:26 pm, "Adrian Farrel" wrote: > Hi, > > Here is the second draft liaison to go to ITU-T SG15. > > Again, comments by end of 3rd April, please. > > (Plenty more to follow, but we will try to turn them out a few at a time.) > > Thanks, > Adrian and Deborah > > === > > To: ITU-T SG15 > From: IETF CCAMP > Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward > Subject: VCAT/LCAS Work in CCAMP > For Comment > Deadline: 25th June 2007 > > The CCAMP working group thanks you for your liaison "Liaison Statement to > CCAMP regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" dated March 2007. > > We are not sure that the Internet-Draft > draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt does use mechanisms defined by ITU-T > SG 15 in Recommendations G.7041 and G.7042. We believe that the intention is > to enable the use of such mechanisms in a GMPLS network > > Nevertheless, we note your interest in this work and would welcome your > comments especially with respect to the applicability of this work to an > ASON network. > > The current published version of this work can be found at > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt. > Please note, however, that a new version of this draft is currently being > prepared by the authors that makes extensive changes to the published > material. Therefore, while we would welcome your comments, we suggest that > you do not invest heavily in a detailed review at this stage. > > We will liaise future versions of this Internet-Draft to you as they become > available. > > Best regards, > Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard > Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group > Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 06:25:57 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.2.5.060620 Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 02:23:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG15 : MLN work From: Monique Morrow To: Adrian Farrel , CC: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , Ross Callon , Dave Ward , Scott Bradner Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG15 : MLN work Thread-Index: Acdxys9iDfA8Nt2+EduENQANk8LkKg== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1964; t=1175149430; x=1176013430; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=mmorrow@cisco.com; z=From:=20Monique=20Morrow=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20Draft=20liaison=20to=20ITU-T=20SG15=20=3A=20MLN=20wor k |Sender:=20; bh=RXwKsF4p0LBMhiXMEnXpbkHC5GknMxiqphBm6bUdKB8=; b=EaO4U0n16D5xj3fC0IFUdBu2az/l+MM7FhRn6eEPu9/u6qZViWH2n4Cxn+oHnujDvOHrKhvY XEaCS4kWwRMsZp0Hgq8jhKeekXPsm0q8pEnE7Lbs32BxhysiRqJUghLI; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=mmorrow@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); Looks ok Adrian! /m On 28/3/07 3:22 pm, "Adrian Farrel" wrote: > Hi, > > Here is the first of a series of proposed liaisons to ITU-T Study Group 15. > > Please comment by end of business 3rd April. > > Thanks, > Adrian and Deborah > ==== > To: ITU-T SG15 > Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward > Subject: Multi-Layer Networking (MLN) Work in CCAMP > For Action > Deadline: 18th May 2007 > > The CCAMP working group notes your request to review its work on Multi-Layer > Networking (MLN) as indicated in your liaison "Liaison Statement to CCAMP > responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" dated March 2007. > > We are nearing completion of our analysis of the requirements for MLN, and > our evaluation of existing protocols, so now is an appropriate time for you > review this material, and we would be grateful for your comments on or > before the deadline marked above. > > The requirements work can be found at > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-reqs-02.txt > The protocol evaluation is at > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-eval-02.txt > > In your review of this material, it may be helpful to pay particular care to > understand the definition of MLN that is used. It may also be helpful to use > some of the terminology interpretation presented in RFC4397. > > The CCAMP working group also anticipates working on protocol extensions to > fill the lacunae identified by the protocol evaluation Internet-Draft. An > individual submission on this subject may be found at > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-papadimitriou-ccamp-gmpls-mrn-extens > ions-03.txt, > but the working group has yet to make a decision about whether to accept > this as the basis for the work. > > Best regards, > Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard > Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group > Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:54:05 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C77172.ACFFD779" Subject: Draft minutes - Session II Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:52:53 -0500 Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DE4F342@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> Thread-Topic: Draft minutes - Session II Thread-Index: Acdxcqx8wpWu6N5DTrymWL2znGo4cw== From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" To: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C77172.ACFFD779 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's the minutes of the second session, much thanks to the great notes of Giles Heron, Julien Meuric, and Tomonori Takeda. Please check them, comment on missing items or corrections, and start to work on the items identified (e.g. liaisons). =20 Thanks, Deborah and Adrian =20 -------------------------------- =20 Sixty-eight IETF, Prague, March 2007 Tuesday, March 20, 2007 1300-1500 Afternoon Session I RTG ccamp Common Control and Measurement Plane WG CCAMP Working Group Agenda Session II =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D CHAIRS: Adrian Farrel=20 Deborah Brungard=20 Note takers: Giles Heron, Julien Meuric, Tomonori Takeda =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D 0. Administrivia (chairs) [5, 5/120] Slides =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D Agenda agreed. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 1. Control plane requirements for GELS (Loa and Don) [30, 35/120] Slides Background reading - draft-andersson-gels-exp-rsvp-te-01.txt - draft-fedyk-gmpls-ethernet-pbb-te-00.txt =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Don - Fedyk draft (PBB-TE) is rev of PBT draft. Tracking IEEE work on data plane. Project will be approved imminently in IEEE. Done in appendix as data plane is IEEE-defined. IETF just defining how to use GMPLS for control. Loa - Andersson draft (GELS-EXP-RSVP-TE) is updated post comments. Not just doc of an experimental implentation (not impl. this version yet). Use GMPLS for "all" modes of connection types (where "all" is P2P - not using yet for P2MP though have soln). Variance with Fedyk is have more than one label type. Don - GELS concluded that needed IEEE data plane. IEEE doing 802.1Qay. IEEE projects are rolled up into larger specs - so Qay will be rolled up into Q spec. Loa - Acreo did 802.1Q-based implementation. Describes certain conditions that we operate under. Works for 802.1Q. Don - trying to define superset that will work for other defined switching paradigms. Don - presented "Conventional Ethernet Bridging" and then "Configured Ethernet Bridging" where STP is removed and configure connections instead. So now have data plane and management plane. Finally GELS - where GMPLS is used to add back the missing control plane... Loa - I looked at Don's pictures and didn't understand them until I slept on it! Don - there is a std for partitioning the VLAN space as part of existing project on shortest path bridging... So will be an official way to do it. Dimitri - when I looked at your "triangle" diagrams. Issue is we have some 802.1 impacts. Cross-correlation in terms of what you can do even if you segment the VLAN space. That will be the major points in terms of getting this accepted by IEEE. Loa - yes, agree is important to record interactions. But what has happened to me repeatedly is that when I come up with a problem and tell the IEEE guys they tell me there's an ongoing project that will fix the problem... that also needs to be part of documentation... Don - diagram where remove CP dependencies is part of an IEEE project... Don - back to GELS motives. Dave Allen has draft on PW interworking with PBT. Loa - we have draft using MPLS with some G-MPLS extensions on top of L2 Ethernet and optical L1. Takes about an hour to learn to configure all 3 layers. If you want to run different layers in "augmented" mode where can request services from lower layers you have good automatic support here with GMPLS. Don - We separated components so could e.g. use management plane with signalling. So limited IP control plane for signalling. Loa - need to be careful not to get packet forwarding through the control plane! Don - LMP is like a superset of 802.1AB link management. So can leverage AB and use LMP. Stewart - did I hear "sending control plane traffic through the data plane"? Loa - no the reverse. Stewart - well we mix the two all the time in the IP world Loa - CP is not dimensioned here to handle data plane traffic. If you don't get costs on links you'll advertise the CP links into the data plane. Adrian - issue is that is bad to send data traffic down control " channel", not control "plane" Kireeti - issue here is that GMPLS is out-of-band, MPLS is in-band CP. Zafar - how do you solve this? In GMPLS we normally have completely separated CP network and data network. So no way data can get into control network. Loa - problem here is how do you define "completely different". Is totally separated in that no other IP connectivity between Ethernet LSRS than control plane but rides on same wavelengths etc. Adrian - could use one fibre for control and one for data? Alternative seems to be to implement the LSRs correctly so they don't forward data on control channel. Loa - so this is the issue of vendors' routers + inexperience setting up IP networks. Dimitri - problem here is that always left flexibility as to how to route the IP traffic. Not been work in CCAMP since inception. Something unintelligable... Loa - model we used for other data planes works quite well... Don - GELS axioms. Some discussion on list on asymmetric b/w reservation. Idea is to fully exploit what Ethernet data plane can do - hence choice of VID configuration or VID+MAC configuration... Dimitri - PBB-TE being done in IEEE. Not speaking about labels in IEEE? Don - yes, don't call things "labels" in IEEE. Dimitri - we know IEEE will speak of bridging. Are we forward looking about what IEEE will do? Don - we took details of what IEEE is doing out, partly because is not an official project yet. Adrian - assumption is that if we go back to IEEE and say we've started on a CP to control this sort of switching and they say "no", then we'll stop. Dimitri - if PBB-TE is bridging with TE then doesn't it mean this sort of config is acceptable for bridging. Loa - yes you can do this from a management station. Loa - ATM forum talked about ATM headers. It was only in IETF that we talked about ATM labels. Dimitri - we know PBB is operating. We don't know about PBB-TE at this point. Would like more info on how their initial framework is detailed. Dave - given that PBB and PBB-TE can work together we won't alter the semantics of MAC addresses. Don - pretty far along. Point is taken that we're not defining a data plane here but are using a defined one. Loa - we know how .1Q, .1ad, .1ah etc. work. Will be amendments to .1Q. If we expect something new to turn up we have to consider that now. But according to IEEE credo all new standards will be backwards-compatible. Dimitri - are we relying on backwards-compatibility of bridging to make these steps now? Don - yes. Don - (Types of LSPs). Been looking at P2P and P2MP in our draft. Loa can talk to the other aspects. Terminology differences. Loa - there is shared forwarding in .1Q. Rely on source address to have an identity that is extended to exactly where things are going. In our mindset we drop the source address (not sure is right thing to do). So then have a MP2P LSP. Is largely overlapping with what Don talks about as P2P. We have done experiments on MP2MP LSP. Standard IEEE VLAN. Same VLAN configured on multiple ports and turn on learning/STP etc. once set up. But basically a standard VLAN. Possible to configure it pretty quickly with scripts etc. (as need to reset testbed several times a day). Igor - my understanding of PBB is single source. Loa - not implemented PBT. What I've done is .1Q plus a couple of deltas we find in most switches. Igor - so don't require single source for the connection... Loa - only use VLAN ID and dest address to point to an LSP. George - When you say .1Q do you mean .1ad Provider Bridges? Are you doing QinQ? Loa - no. Just using one Q tag. Though the next step is QinQ. Behaves the same way as the start of an MPLS tunnel. Set it up and put traffic in. Kireeti - what signalling do you use for MP2P and MP2MP LSPs? Signalling or provisioning? Loa - All signalled except MP2MP (which is set up with a script - mgmt plane). Kireeti - so what signalling do you use for MP2P? Do you swap VLANs? Loa - no, same VLAN through LSP. That's one of the differences with what we did earlier. Don - changes we need in Gen label request for Ethernet. Dimitri - Quesiton on MP2P techniques. Is Loa's implemantation compatible with Don's? Loa - need to compare and clarify. We can do P2P with MAC and dest addr and then allow or not allow merging. Need to sort out terminology for shared forwarding. Don - our view of MP2P is shared forwarding. Two independent LSPs that share the same label at the merge point. No difference signalling-wise if they don't share the label. Kireeti - so basically MP2P LSP is multiple P2P LSPs that happen to share the last few hops. Igor - is MP2P same as N x P2P which merge at same destination. Don - "shared forwarding" is two individual LSPs sharing same tail-end label. George - do all sources use same dest address? And how do you avoid paths that criss-cross? Loa - criss-cross can be solved in routing protocol. Once you merge you merge. George - so not sending explicit path in RSVP message. Loa - send explicit path to merge point, but once resolve is same as an existing path we allow you to merge onto it unless we set that you can't do it. Adrian - George and I need to work on this. MP2P-TE needs to be solved in a generalised way for MPLS, GMPLS and GELS. George - this sounds a little non-standard as compared to what RSVP-TE does at the moment. Loa - I admit to that. George - so you have full ERO and then if you hit a merge point and merge is allowed then you merge? Loa - yes. And don't have b/w reservations. If TSPEC is the same can merge. Don - shared forwarding is a limited version of merging. No merging of b/w etc. More definition required around this term in the documentation. Loa - what you can accuse me of is using RSVP-TE in an LDP fashion. We admit this is not standard. We are building our experimental platform. If what we do is good then fine, of not will change it... Loa - this slide (Gen Label Request) is additions, not changes. Don - using Dimitri's T-spec as a good starting point. Don - 2 diags stolen from Dave Allen as to where this is applicable: 1) PBB net with edge and core bridges offering a native Ethernet VLAN over the top. Looks like VPLS but is all native Ethernet. 2) case like a PW for aggregation. Loa - my comparible picture shows network from "above" and "the side". Yellow part is GELS. So have MPLS over GELS over X? X !=3D = optical switches in this testbed. Igor - you said GELS could help for optical networks. Loa - was a bit more careful than that. When we get people into our network we want to do test incorporation. Want to help people understand the idea. The operational paradigms of the layers are very close. If you want inter-layer signalling that works over UNI. Igor - so in your opinion the CP similarity helps integration. Loa - yes, helps operational side at least. Igor - so people need to learn less? If familiar with optical CP can learn Ethernet CP? Igor - you also said GELS helped interwork configured Ethernet with MPLS. What did you mean? I read it as it helps by removing MPLS. Is that correct? Don - is interfacing Ethernet MAN to an MPLS network. Igor - I don't see MPLS here. Don - is in the WAN. Dimitri - Where does the LSP start and finish in these diagrams? Is it an S-PVC mode or an SVC mode. Loa - in our network Ethernet LSP starts at Ethernet I/F of the IP router. Optical LSP starts on Optical interface of Ethenret switch. Dimitri - is is always a switched mode from access to S-PE? Don - in this case would have a PW that could be terminated or stitched. You can always choose to terminate and then ? Dimitri - this is one of the limitations in UNI deployments today. Do we gain something by only having a switched mode that goes router to router, or do we need a mode that goes edge to edge. So from ingress PE to egress PE that doesn't impact the IP routers (S-PVC mode rather than SVC mode). When I look at usage of GMPLS we may need to consider both modes. Adrian - don't see anything in protocol that prohibits either mode. If something shows up then should flag it as we need to keep both modes available. Dimitri - asking other way round. If we only have switched mode then can only deploy GMPLS on nodes that today aren't able to do it. I'm stating about our experience of deployment... That's a concern. Let's look at today's access nodes... Loa - I've kind of lost the Q? I suggest you write the Q down and put it on the list... Don - we don't need to add that much to GMPLS. Next step is to add a milestone for WG charter for experimental GELS spec (Loa's suggestion). Add milestone to develop a spec for GELS signalling/routing (combined suggestion). Adrian - at all future meets GELS will be at end of agenda and you can carry on in your own time. Think we're premature for milestone requests. Both of you can continue experimental work, but doesn't come into WG quite yet. Rules still apply as to how to bring stuff into WG. Consider yourselves lucky that you were allowed to present this. Rules say that if you believe you have an IEEE-conformant data plane then we liase to IEEE and say that we wish to control it, is that ok? Loa - brought 802.1Q. Adrian - just say "please" ;-) let's talk offline, I need to understand the dataplane we're liasing a request about... =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 2. ARP over GMPLS (Zafar) [10, 45/120] Slides Background reading - draft-ali-arp-over-gmpls-controlled-ethernet-psc-i-03.txt =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Zafar went over the slides, explaining changes and requesting to be a WG I-D. Suggest to use tunnel interface address for ARP request. Lou - Why is it different from other p-to-p link between routers? Zafar - This is ethernet, so need ARP. Lou - It exists without GMPLS, right? Is your solution applicable to those spaces? Zafar - We never have two addresses for the same physical address, this is what you see in GMPLS. Lou - The issue of p-to-p ethernet is new for some router vendors? Zafar - Typically we don't use unnumbered ethernet IF. The second point is that we typically don't use two addresses. Lou - The first point is just unnumbered ethernet, and some vendors don't understand it. Sounds like it is not CCAMP issue. Zafar - Why? We are using signaling. Lou - That is the second problem. Lou - The second problem sounds like GMPLS stuff. But it seems just a broken implementation. Zafar - It is unclear implementation. Lou - What category do you intend for this I-D? Zafar - BCP. Igor - Where does the optical LSP start and end? Zafar - Between routers. Igor - Where is the ethernet connection? Zafar - It is also netween routers Igor - What type of connection? Dimitri - Good point. You can carry anything over optical LSP, so need to be sure whether we want to say framing etc. Deborah - Good discussion. Igor raised a good question - is the connection optical or ethernet. Take it to the list. Adrian - (To Zafar) Please drive the discussion so we get progress before the next IETF. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3. Traffic Engineering Extensions to OSPF in support of inter-AS TE (Mach Chen) [10, 55/120] Slides Background reading - draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Mach went over the slides, explaining motivations and protocol extensions. Yakov - Overlap with OSPF auto-discovery in L1VPN. Encourage you to look at L1VPN WG. JP - You say this is mandatory for BRPC, please clarify in which case you may need it. Can you also make sure you do a cut and paste of the "not to do" slide into the draft. The draft is fine. Want to make sure that the draft tells us what we're not trying to do to prevent people coming up with silly ideas. Are you writing down in the document that not doing TE aggregation? Mach - Yes. Acee - Could you replace extensions to OSPF to extensions to OSPF-TE? Add OSPFv3 for refernece as well. This should be applicable to both, but need to define if that is the case. Also not sure I agree that it should be bundled with L1VPN autodiscovery. Stewart Bryant - The reason for ASs and BGP, etc, is for info hiding. Can we make sure that you are not feeding private information? Adrian - doesn't that follow from saying that don't share TE info outside AS? Stewart- Yes, but need to be v. strict... =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 4. Bidirectional LSPs with asymmetric bandwidth requirements (Attila) [10, 65/120] Slides Background reading - draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Attila went over the slides explaining motivations, options for achieving this, and futher works. Zafar - can you explain why you need both LSPs to follow the same route? Attila - in some scenarios is beneficial to do that for management and a couple of other issues. Zafar - think Q is back to requirements of draft. I think you need to spell out more on the application why you need same path. Julien - I agree that co-routed asymmetrical services is needed. But you may have missed possible scenario where you could associate bidirectional LSP at ingress. Lou - I think Zafar has a good point. Before we jump into implementation need to say that this is a needed service and that what we have today is not sufficient. We did bidirectional symmetric service because the transport network needed it. if we don't have such a transport network then what we have here may be sufficient. Attila - this extension is an optional optimisation. Not a requirement Lou - so need to enumerate the cases where it's useful and what the benefit is. Rowen Soloman - sometimes bundling 2 unidirectional LSPs and doing low level config of egress traffic management is complex. but want to see a relationship between this new object and CAC funtionality. When do you go to CAC to reserve b/w for the alternate direction? When is error sent if there's insufficient b/w. Attila - this is implementation Q. Rowen - would like to see recommendation. Igor - like to see whether we need such service. If have service that is symmetrical in all contexts except b/w then this might be reasonable. The reason for bidirectional LSP wasn't just driven by technology but also by benefits in setup time and recovery. Much easier to handle one bidirectional LSP than a combination of two LSPs. Attila - so summary is: do we have a strong use-case for this? Need mailing list discussion. Lucy - need to think about P2MP as an application. Dimitri - What is P2MP asymetric bidirectional LSP about? Lucy - Discuss offline. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 5. Data Channel Status using LMP (Dan) [10, 75/120] Slides Background reading - draft-li-ccamp-confirm-data-channel-status-01.txt =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Dan went over the slides, explaining changes and protocol extensions Adrian - We don't have many people doing LMP here, but two on this draft. Who in the room read this? -> 5 Any strong feeling against? None, but... Zafar - Raised some concern Dan - Have you read this I-D? Zafar - Some comments. Personally not sure about requirements. Not sure if the group has enough interest to solve this problem. Adrian- we do have to be sure we're solving a problem that needs solving. Just because vendors are on the draft doesn't mean they intend to implement and deploy. Would like feedback from carriers as to whether this is a real problem and whether they'd look to LMP to solve it. Diego - We have implemented LMP. This draft solves a real problem. Julien - Feel that this is an interesting issue to solve. This may be specific to transmission devices. Not really issue for packet networks. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 6. LSP Dynamical Provisioning Performance Metrics in GMPLS Networks (Guoying Zhang) [10, 85/120] Slides Background reading - draft-xie-ccamp-lsp-dppm-00.txt =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Guoying went over the slides, explaining motivations and open issues. Adrian - is this project alive, or complete? Is the draft + the research finished? Guoying - project is still going. Want to do work on e.g. multipoint LSPs and rerouting. Adrian - feedback you want from group is questions, also what else the group would like measured? Guoying - also whether the group thinks this is useful. Adrian - please comment/discuss on mic or on list. Zafar - why is graceful release delay important? Guoying - why graceful, or why release? Zafar - why is graceful release delay important? Guoying - release delay is important as both setup and release impact the application performance. if release is not good then won't meet requirements. So need to define performance for release. Only looking at graceful release here as forced release will cause problems anyway... Lucy - when you talk about control plane management, is that just signalling or also data plane setup? Guoying - only CP setup time today. Issues with control/data sync. hard to measure the sync. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 7. Transport Resource Management and Time-Based Bandwidth Services (Lucy Yong) [10, 95/120] Slides Background reading - draft-yong-ccamp-ason-gmpls-autobw-service-00 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Lucy went over the slides, explaining motivations and asking the group whether this is interesting. Dimitri - what shall we standardise here? Lucy - we need to have a CP that can handle reservation. Dimitri - is there something today that prevents you using this model? What do we need to standardise here (where we work on protocols)? Adrian - yes, we do protocols. In order to decide if we need a protocol we need to see what architecture we're trying to build. If we can solve the architecture with existing protocols then we're done. If we need new protocol then we need to do it (either in CCAMP or elesewhere). But before we even define the arch we need to answer Lucy's Q of whether this is something we need to solve. Lucy - I don't think the current protocol and architecture lets you do this. Dimitri - what prevents us today from saying we'd establish a connection at a given point in time? Lucy - all three options today don't work. Zafar - can't see what we need beyond what GMPLS provides. Lucy - your connection request doesn't have a future time in it. Zafar - there are so many ways you could do it. Nothing to do with protocol. Lucy - carriers currently rely on management plane to do it. If we have a CP then how do we combine them? Zafar - local decision? Lucy - A network resource you need to reserve. Signalling doesn't let you know time. Zafar - can take offline... Rowen - you do signalling to future allocate resources? So do you keep full state of future services? Lucy - we can work that out in implementation. Rowen - do you keep states in network for services that aren't running? That's a major scaling issue. Lucy - that's an implementation issue. George - It's a major scaling issue in building a switch. Also issues in terms of recovering stuff in event of failure. Better to leave stuff in the mgmt system and have CP as a slave. Lucy - we already have PCE etc. so don't need to embed this in the nodes George - when pull out of network, it is mgmt plane. Lucy - PCE is out of network but is CP. George - PCE isn't part of GMPLS CP. Not suggesting we put this in routing and signalling? E.g. signal with RSVP-TE ahead of time? Lucy - there are different ways to implement this, not suggesting one here. George - don't think is good idea to put this in the switches. Topology may change between making request and reserving it. So not very useful to embed the info too close to where you're going to deploy it. Lucy - I agree. George - two things need to happen before we consider this. (1) need to hear from SPs that it's a real need. Not many SPs want to keep dark fibre around to light up instantaneously. (2) need to clarify the architecture in terms of what is control and what is management... Gert - we have application like this running for two years. Never had req. from service provider to put anything in the control plane. So doubt if this is useful... Dimitri - I have one question. where shall I put the resource management state. If I don't see a cost/benefit ratio which is better than what we do today then won't do it. There is a temptation to make the control plane have all the features of the management plane - really dangerous as end up with a distributed management plane... Adrian - Keep hearing people say don't put mgmt plane in CP. I think I heard Lucy say that too. So we all agreed... =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 8. CCAMP Liaison responses (chairs) [25, 120/120] - OIF Signaling for MEF Requirements - OIF VLAN ID Requirements - OIF Interworking Cookbook - SG15 Related Slides Background reading - CCAMP incoming correspondence =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Dropped from the agenda due to lack of time. Adrian - please look at slides on liaison work. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C77172.ACFFD779 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here's = the minutes=20 of the second session, much thanks to the great notes of Giles Heron, = Julien=20 Meuric, and Tomonori Takeda. Please check them, comment on missing items = or=20 corrections, and start to work on the items identified (e.g.=20 liaisons).
 
Thanks,
Deborah and=20 Adrian
 
--------------------------------=
 
Sixty-eight IETF,=20 Prague, March 2007

Tuesday, March 20, 2007
1300-1500 Afternoon = Session=20 I
RTG     ccamp     Common = Control=20 and Measurement Plane WG

CCAMP Working Group Agenda Session=20 II
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
CHAIRS: Adrian Farrel=20
        = Deborah=20 Brungard

Note takers: Giles Heron, Julien = Meuric,=20 Tomonori = Takeda
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0. Administrivia (chairs) [5,=20 5/120]

Slides

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Agenda=20 agreed.

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1.=20 Control plane requirements for GELS (Loa and Don) [30,=20 35/120]

Slides

Background reading
  -=20 draft-andersson-gels-exp-rsvp-te-01.txt
  -=20 draft-fedyk-gmpls-ethernet-pbb-te-00.txt
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Don=20 - Fedyk draft (PBB-TE) is rev of PBT draft.  Tracking IEEE work=20 on
      data plane. Project will be = approved=20 imminently in IEEE.  Done in
      = appendix as=20 data plane is IEEE-defined.  IETF just defining how=20 to
      use GMPLS for control.

Loa - = Andersson draft (GELS-EXP-RSVP-TE) is updated post comments. =20 Not
      just doc of an experimental = implentation=20 (not impl. this version
      yet).  = Use GMPLS=20 for "all" modes of connection types (where=20 "all"
      is P2P - not using yet for P2MP = though=20 have soln).  Variance with
      Fedyk = is have=20 more than one label type.

Don - GELS concluded that needed IEEE = data=20 plane.   IEEE doing = 802.1Qay.
      IEEE=20 projects are rolled up into larger specs - so Qay will=20 be
      rolled up into Q spec.

Loa - = Acreo=20 did 802.1Q-based implementation.  Describes=20 certain
      conditions that we operate=20 under.  Works for 802.1Q.

Don - trying to define superset = that will=20 work for other defined
      switching=20 paradigms.

Don - presented "Conventional Ethernet Bridging" and = then=20 "Configured
      Ethernet Bridging" where = STP is=20 removed and configure connections
      = instead. So=20 now have data plane and management plane. =20 Finally
      GELS - where GMPLS is used to = add back=20 the missing control
      = plane...

Loa - I=20 looked at Don's pictures and didn't understand them until=20 I
      slept on it!

Don - there is a = std for=20 partitioning the VLAN space as part of=20 existing
      project on shortest path=20 bridging...  So will be an official = way
     =20 to do it.

Dimitri - when I looked at your "triangle"=20 diagrams.   Issue is we=20 have
          some = 802.1=20 impacts.  Cross-correlation in terms of what=20 you
          can do = even if you=20 segment the VLAN space.  That will be=20 the
          major = points in=20 terms of getting this accepted by IEEE.

Loa - yes, agree is = important to=20 record interactions.  But what = has
     =20 happened to me repeatedly is that when I come up with a=20 problem
      and tell the IEEE guys they = tell me=20 there's an ongoing project
      that will = fix the=20 problem...
      that also needs to be part = of=20 documentation...

Don - diagram where remove CP dependencies is = part of an=20 IEEE project...

Don - back to GELS motives.  Dave Allen has = draft on=20 PW interworking
      with PBT.

Loa - = we have=20 draft using MPLS with some G-MPLS extensions on top of=20 L2
      Ethernet and optical L1.  = Takes about=20 an hour to learn to
      configure all 3=20 layers.  If you want to run different layers=20 in
      "augmented" mode where can request = services=20 from lower layers you
      have good = automatic=20 support here with GMPLS.

Don - We separated components so could = e.g. use=20 management plane with
      = signalling.  So=20 limited IP control plane for signalling.

Loa - need to be careful = not to=20 get packet forwarding through the
      = control=20 plane!

Don - LMP is like a superset of 802.1AB link = management.  So=20 can
      leverage AB and use = LMP.

Stewart -=20 did I hear "sending control plane traffic through the=20 data
         =20 plane"?

Loa - no the reverse.

Stewart - well we mix the = two all=20 the time in the IP world

Loa - CP is not dimensioned here to = handle data=20 plane traffic.  If you
      don't get = costs on=20 links you'll advertise the CP links into = the
     =20 data plane.

Adrian - issue is that is bad to send data traffic = down=20 control "
         channel", = not=20 control "plane"

Kireeti - issue here is that GMPLS is = out-of-band, MPLS=20 is in-band CP.

Zafar - how do you solve this?  In GMPLS we = normally=20 have completely
        separated = CP=20 network and data network.  So no way data can=20 get
        into control=20 network.

Loa - problem here is how do you define "completely=20 different".  Is
      totally separated = in that=20 no other IP connectivity between
      = Ethernet LSRS=20 than control plane but rides on same=20 wavelengths
      etc.

Adrian - could = use one=20 fibre for control and one for data? =20 Alternative
         seems to = be to=20 implement the LSRs correctly so they=20 don't
         forward data = on=20 control channel.

Loa - so this is the issue of vendors' routers + = inexperience setting up
      IP=20 networks.

Dimitri - problem here is that always left flexibility = as to=20 how to
          route = the IP=20 traffic.  Not been work in CCAMP since=20 inception.
          = Something=20 unintelligable...

Loa - model we used for other data planes works = quite=20 well...

Don - GELS axioms.  Some discussion on list on = asymmetric=20 b/w
      reservation.  Idea is to = fully=20 exploit what Ethernet data plane
      can = do -=20 hence choice of VID configuration or = VID+MAC
     =20 configuration...

Dimitri - PBB-TE being done in IEEE.  Not = speaking=20 about labels in IEEE?

Don - yes, don't call things "labels" in=20 IEEE.

Dimitri - we know IEEE will speak of bridging.  Are we = forward=20 looking
          about = what=20 IEEE will do?

Don - we took details of what IEEE is doing out, = partly=20 because is not
      an official project=20 yet.

Adrian - assumption is that if we go back to IEEE and say = we've=20 started
         on a CP to = control=20 this sort of switching and they say=20 "no",
         then we'll=20 stop.

Dimitri - if PBB-TE is bridging with TE then doesn't it = mean this=20 sort
          of config = is=20 acceptable for bridging.

Loa - yes you can do this from a = management=20 station.

Loa - ATM forum talked about ATM headers.  It was = only in=20 IETF that we
      talked about ATM=20 labels.

Dimitri - we know PBB is operating.  We don't know = about=20 PBB-TE at this
          = point.=20 Would like more info on how their initial framework=20 is
         =20 detailed.

Dave - given that PBB and PBB-TE can work together we = won't=20 alter the
       semantics of MAC=20 addresses.

Don - pretty far along.  Point is taken that = we're not=20 defining a data
      plane here but are = using a=20 defined one.

Loa - we know how .1Q, .1ad, .1ah etc. work.  = Will be=20 amendments to .1Q.
      If we expect = something new=20 to turn up we have to consider that
      = now. =20 But according to IEEE credo all new standards will=20 be
      = backwards-compatible.

Dimitri - are=20 we relying on backwards-compatibility of bridging to=20 make
          these = steps=20 now?

Don - yes.

Don - (Types of LSPs).  Been looking = at P2P=20 and P2MP in our draft.  Loa
      can = talk to=20 the other aspects.  Terminology differences.

Loa - there is = shared=20 forwarding in .1Q.  Rely on source address to=20 have
      an identity that is extended to = exactly=20 where things are going.
      In our mindset = we drop=20 the source address (not sure is right = thing
      to=20 do).  So then have a MP2P LSP.  Is largely overlapping=20 with
      what Don talks about as = P2P.  We=20 have done experiments on MP2MP
      = LSP. =20 Standard IEEE VLAN.  Same VLAN configured on multiple=20 ports
      and turn on learning/STP etc. = once set=20 up.  But basically a
      standard = VLAN. =20 Possible to configure it pretty quickly = with
     =20 scripts etc. (as need to reset testbed several times a day).

Igor = - my=20 understanding of PBB is single source.

Loa - not implemented = PBT. =20 What I've done is .1Q plus a couple of
      = deltas=20 we find in most switches.

Igor - so don't require single source = for the=20 connection...

Loa - only use VLAN ID and dest address to point to = an=20 LSP.

George -  When you say .1Q do you mean .1ad Provider=20 Bridges?  Are = you
         =20 doing QinQ?

Loa - no.  Just using one Q tag.  Though = the next=20 step is QinQ.  Behaves
      the same = way as=20 the start of an MPLS tunnel.  Set it up and=20 put
      traffic in.

Kireeti - what=20 signalling do you use for MP2P and MP2MP=20 LSPs?
          = Signalling or=20 provisioning?

Loa - All signalled except MP2MP (which is set up = with a=20 script - mgmt
      plane).

Kireeti - = so what=20 signalling do you use for MP2P?  Do you swap VLANs?

Loa - = no, same=20 VLAN through LSP.  That's one of the differences=20 with
      what we did earlier.

Don - = changes=20 we need in Gen label request for Ethernet.

Dimitri - Quesiton on = MP2P=20 techniques.  Is Loa's=20 implemantation
          = compatible with Don's?

Loa - need to compare and clarify.  = We can do=20 P2P with MAC and dest addr
      and then = allow or=20 not allow merging.  Need to sort out=20 terminology
      for shared = forwarding.

Don=20 - our view of MP2P is shared forwarding.  Two independent LSPs=20 that
      share the same label at the merge = point.  No difference
      = signalling-wise if=20 they don't share the label.

Kireeti - so basically MP2P LSP is = multiple=20 P2P LSPs that happen=20 to
          share the = last few=20 hops.

Igor - is MP2P same as N x P2P which merge at same=20 destination.

Don - "shared forwarding" is two individual LSPs = sharing=20 same tail-end
       = label.

George - do=20 all sources use same dest address?  And how do you=20 avoid
         paths that=20 criss-cross?

Loa - criss-cross can be solved in routing = protocol. =20 Once you merge you
      = merge.

George - so=20 not sending explicit path in RSVP message.

Loa - send explicit = path to=20 merge point, but once resolve is same as = an
     =20 existing path we allow you to merge onto it unless we set that=20 you
      can't do it.

Adrian - = George and I=20 need to work on this.  MP2P-TE needs to be=20 solved
         in a = generalised way=20 for MPLS, GMPLS and GELS.

George - this sounds a little = non-standard as=20 compared to what = RSVP-TE
        =20 does at the moment.

Loa - I admit to that.

George - so you = have=20 full ERO and then if you hit a merge point=20 and
         merge is allowed = then=20 you merge?

Loa - yes.  And don't have b/w = reservations.  If=20 TSPEC is the same can
      = merge.

Don -=20 shared forwarding is a limited version of merging.  No merging=20 of
      b/w etc.  More definition = required=20 around this term in the
     =20 documentation.

Loa - what you can accuse me of is using RSVP-TE = in an LDP=20 fashion.  We
      admit this is not=20 standard.  We are building our=20 experimental
      platform.  If what = we do is=20 good then fine, of not will change
     =20 it...

Loa - this slide (Gen Label Request) is additions, not=20 changes.

Don - using Dimitri's T-spec as a good starting=20 point.

Don - 2 diags stolen from Dave Allen as to where this is=20 applicable:
      1) PBB net with edge and = core=20 bridges offering a native=20 Ethernet
         VLAN over = the=20 top.  Looks like VPLS but is all native=20 Ethernet.
      2) case like a PW for=20 aggregation.

Loa - my comparible picture shows network from = "above" and=20 "the side".
      Yellow part is GELS.  = So have=20 MPLS over GELS over X?  X !=3D = optical
     =20 switches in this testbed.

Igor - you said GELS could help for = optical=20 networks.

Loa - was a bit more careful than that.  When we = get=20 people into our
      network we want to do = test=20 incorporation.  Want to help = people
     =20 understand the idea.  The operational paradigms of the layers=20 are
      very close.  If you want = inter-layer=20 signalling that works over
      = UNI.

Igor -=20 so in your opinion the CP similarity helps integration.

Loa - = yes, helps=20 operational side at least.

Igor - so people need to learn = less?  If=20 familiar with optical CP can
       = learn=20 Ethernet CP?

Igor - you also said GELS helped interwork = configured=20 Ethernet with
       MPLS. What did you = mean?  I read it as it helps by removing=20 MPLS.
       Is that = correct?

Don - is=20 interfacing Ethernet MAN to an MPLS network.

Igor - I don't see = MPLS=20 here.

Don - is in the WAN.

Dimitri - Where does the LSP = start and=20 finish in these diagrams?  Is=20 it
          an S-PVC = mode or an=20 SVC mode.

Loa - in our network Ethernet LSP starts at Ethernet = I/F of the=20 IP
      router. Optical LSP starts on = Optical=20 interface of Ethenret
      = switch.

Dimitri -=20 is is always a switched mode from access to S-PE?

Don - in this = case=20 would have a PW that could be terminated or=20 stitched.
      You can always choose to = terminate=20 and then ?

Dimitri - this is one of the limitations in UNI = deployments=20 today.  = Do
          we=20 gain something by only having a switched mode that=20 goes
          router to = router,=20 or do we need a mode that goes edge to=20 edge.
          So from = ingress=20 PE to egress PE that doesn't impact the=20 IP
          routers = (S-PVC mode=20 rather than SVC mode).  When I look=20 at
          usage of = GMPLS we=20 may need to consider both modes.

Adrian - don't see anything in = protocol=20 that prohibits either mode. =20 If
         something shows = up then=20 should flag it as we need to keep=20 both
         modes=20 available.

Dimitri - asking other way round.  If we only = have=20 switched mode = then
          can=20 only deploy GMPLS on nodes that today aren't able to=20 do
          it.  = I'm=20 stating about our experience of deployment... =20 That's
          a=20 concern.  Let's look at today's access nodes...

Loa - I've = kind of=20 lost the Q?  I suggest you write the Q down and=20 put
      it on the list...

Don - we = don't=20 need to add that much to GMPLS.  Next step is to add=20 a
      milestone for WG charter for = experimental=20 GELS spec (Loa's
      suggestion).  = Add=20 milestone to develop a spec for GELS
     =20 signalling/routing (combined suggestion).

Adrian - at all future = meets=20 GELS will be at end of agenda and you=20 can
         carry on in your = own=20 time.  Think we're premature for=20 milestone
         = requests. =20 Both of you can continue experimental work,=20 but
         doesn't come = into WG=20 quite yet.  Rules still apply as to how=20 to
         bring stuff into=20 WG.  Consider yourselves lucky that you=20 were
         allowed to = present=20 this.  Rules say that if you believe=20 you
         have an = IEEE-conformant=20 data plane then we liase to IEEE=20 and
         say that we wish = to=20 control it, is that ok?

Loa - brought 802.1Q.

Adrian - = just say=20 "please" ;-)  let's talk offline, I need to=20 understand
         the = dataplane=20 we're liasing a request=20 about...

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
2.=20 ARP over GMPLS (Zafar) [10, 45/120]

Slides

Background=20 reading
  -=20 draft-ali-arp-over-gmpls-controlled-ethernet-psc-i-03.txt
=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D

Zafar=20 went over the slides, explaining changes and requesting to be a
WG = I-D.=20 Suggest to use tunnel interface address for ARP request.

Lou - = Why is it=20 different from other p-to-p link between routers?

Zafar - This is = ethernet, so need ARP.

Lou - It exists without GMPLS, right? Is = your=20 solution applicable to
      those=20 spaces?

Zafar - We never have two addresses for the same physical = address, this
        is what you = see in=20 GMPLS.

Lou - The issue of p-to-p ethernet is new for some router=20 vendors?

Zafar - Typically we don't use unnumbered ethernet IF. = The=20 second point
        is that we = typically=20 don't use two addresses.

Lou - The first point is just unnumbered = ethernet, and some vendors
      don't = understand=20 it. Sounds like it is not CCAMP issue.

Zafar - Why? We are using=20 signaling.

Lou - That is the second problem.

Lou - The = second=20 problem sounds like GMPLS stuff. But it seems just=20 a
      broken implementation.

Zafar = - It is=20 unclear implementation.

Lou - What category do you intend for = this=20 I-D?

Zafar - BCP.

Igor - Where does the optical LSP start = and=20 end?

Zafar - Between routers.
Igor - Where is the ethernet=20 connection?

Zafar - It is also netween routers

Igor - What = type of=20 connection?

Dimitri - Good point. You can carry anything over = optical=20 LSP, so need
          = to be=20 sure whether we want to say framing etc.

Deborah - Good = discussion. Igor=20 raised a good question - is=20 the
          connection = optical=20 or ethernet. Take it to the list.

Adrian - (To Zafar) Please = drive the=20 discussion so we get=20 progress
         before the = next=20 IETF.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3.=20 Traffic Engineering Extensions to OSPF in support of inter-AS = TE
(Mach Chen)=20 [10, 55/120]

Slides

Background reading
  -=20 draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=
Mach=20 went over the slides, explaining motivations and=20 protocol
extensions.

Yakov - Overlap with OSPF auto-discovery = in=20 L1VPN. Encourage you to = look
        at=20 L1VPN WG.

JP - You say this is mandatory for BRPC, please clarify = in=20 which case
     you may need it. Can you also = make sure=20 you do a cut and paste of
     the "not to do" = slide into=20 the draft.  The draft is fine.  Want = to
    =20 make sure that the draft tells us what we're not trying to do=20 to
     prevent people coming up with silly = ideas. Are=20 you writing down in
     the document that not = doing TE=20 aggregation?

Mach - Yes.

Acee - Could you replace = extensions to=20 OSPF to extensions to OSPF-TE?
       = Add=20 OSPFv3 for refernece as well. This should be applicable=20 to
       both, but need to define if = that is=20 the case. Also not sure I
       agree = that it=20 should be bundled with L1VPN autodiscovery.

Stewart Bryant - The = reason=20 for ASs and BGP, etc, is for info=20 hiding.
          &n= bsp;     =20 Can we make sure that you are not feeding=20 private
          &n= bsp;     =20 information?

Adrian - doesn't that follow from saying that don't = share TE=20 info
         outside=20 AS?

Stewart- Yes, but need to be v.=20 strict...

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
4.=20 Bidirectional LSPs with asymmetric bandwidth requirements
(Attila) = [10,=20 65/120]

Slides

Background reading
  -=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Attila=20 went over the slides explaining motivations, options for
achieving = this, and=20 futher works.

Zafar - can you explain why you need both LSPs to = follow=20 the same route?

Attila - in some scenarios is beneficial to do = that for=20 management and a
couple of other issues.

Zafar - think Q is = back to=20 requirements of draft.  I think you need=20 to
        spell out more on the=20 application why you need same path.

Julien - I agree that = co-routed=20 asymmetrical services is needed. =20 But
         you may have = missed=20 possible scenario where you could=20 associate
         = bidirectional LSP=20 at ingress.

Lou - I think Zafar has a good point.  Before we = jump=20 into
      implementation need to say that = this is a=20 needed service and that
      what we have = today is=20 not sufficient.  We did = bidirectional
     =20 symmetric service because the transport network needed it.  if=20 we
      don't have such a transport network = then=20 what we have here may be
     =20 sufficient.

Attila - this extension is an optional = optimisation. =20 Not a requirement

Lou - so need to enumerate the cases where it's = useful=20 and what the
      benefit is.

Rowen = Soloman=20 - sometimes bundling 2 unidirectional LSPs and doing=20 low
           =     =20 level config of egress traffic management is=20 complex.
          &= nbsp;    =20 but want to see a relationship between this new=20 object
          &nb= sp;    =20 and CAC funtionality.  When do you go to CAC to=20 reserve
          &n= bsp;    =20 b/w for the alternate direction?  When is error sent=20 if
           &= nbsp;   =20 there's insufficient b/w.

Attila - this is implementation = Q.

Rowen=20 - would like to see recommendation.

Igor - like to see whether we = need=20 such service.  If have service = that
      =20 is symmetrical in all contexts except b/w then this might=20 be
       reasonable.  The reason = for=20 bidirectional LSP wasn't just = driven
       by=20 technology but also by benefits in setup time and=20 recovery.
       Much easier to handle = one=20 bidirectional LSP than a combination = of
      =20 two LSPs.

Attila - so summary is: do we have a strong use-case = for=20 this?  Need
         = mailing=20 list discussion.

Lucy - need to think about P2MP as an=20 application.

Dimitri - What is P2MP asymetric bidirectional LSP=20 about?

Lucy - Discuss=20 offline.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
5.=20 Data Channel Status using LMP (Dan) [10, = 75/120]

Slides

Background=20 reading
  -=20 draft-li-ccamp-confirm-data-channel-status-01.txt
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=
Dan=20 went over the slides, explaining changes and protocol = extensions

Adrian -=20 We don't have many people doing LMP here, but two on=20 this
         draft. Who in = the room=20 read this? -> 5
         = Any=20 strong feeling against? None, but...

Zafar - Raised some=20 concern

Dan - Have you read this I-D?

Zafar - Some = comments.=20 Personally not sure about requirements. Not=20 sure
        if the group has = enough=20 interest to solve this problem.

Adrian- we do have to be sure = we're=20 solving a problem that = needs
       =20 solving. Just because vendors are on the draft doesn't mean=20 they
        intend to implement = and=20 deploy.  Would like feedback=20 from
        carriers as to = whether this=20 is a real problem and whether=20 they'd
        look to LMP to = solve=20 it.

Diego - We have implemented LMP. This draft solves a real=20 problem.

Julien - Feel that this is an interesting issue to = solve. This=20 may be
         specific to=20 transmission devices. Not really issue for=20 packet
        =20 networks.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
6.=20 LSP Dynamical Provisioning Performance Metrics in GMPLS = Networks
(Guoying=20 Zhang) [10, 85/120]

Slides

Background reading
  -=20 draft-xie-ccamp-lsp-dppm-00.txt
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Guoying=20 went over the slides, explaining motivations and open = issues.

Adrian - is=20 this project alive, or complete?  Is the draft +=20 the
         research =20 finished?

Guoying - project is still going.  Want to do work = on e.g.=20 multipoint
          = LSPs and=20 rerouting.

Adrian - feedback you want from group is questions, = also what=20 else the
         group would = like=20 measured?

Guoying - also whether the group thinks this is=20 useful.

Adrian - please comment/discuss on mic or on = list.

Zafar -=20 why is graceful release delay important?

Guoying - why graceful, = or why=20 release?

Zafar - why is graceful release delay = important?

Guoying=20 - release delay is important as both setup and release=20 impact
          the = application=20 performance.  if release is not good=20 then
          won't = meet=20 requirements.  So need to define performance=20 for
          = release. =20 Only looking at graceful release here as=20 forced
          release = will=20 cause problems anyway...

Lucy - when you talk about control plane = management, is that just
       = signalling or=20 also data plane setup?

Guoying - only CP setup time today. Issues = with=20 control/data = sync.
         =20 hard to measure the=20 sync.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
7.=20 Transport Resource Management and Time-Based Bandwidth Services
(Lucy = Yong)=20 [10, 95/120]

Slides

Background reading
  -=20 draft-yong-ccamp-ason-gmpls-autobw-service-00
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Lucy=20 went over the slides, explaining motivations and asking the = group
whether=20 this is interesting.

Dimitri - what shall we standardise=20 here?

Lucy - we need to have a CP that can handle=20 reservation.

Dimitri - is there something today that prevents you = using=20 this model?
          = What do we=20 need to standardise here (where we work=20 on
         =20 protocols)?

Adrian - yes, we do protocols.  In order to = decide if we=20 need a protocol
         we = need to=20 see what architecture we're trying to build.  If=20 we
         can solve the=20 architecture with existing protocols then=20 we're
         done.  If = we need=20 new protocol then we need to do it (either=20 in
         CCAMP or=20 elesewhere).  But before we even define the arch=20 we
         need to answer = Lucy's Q=20 of whether this is something we need=20 to
         = solve.

Lucy - I=20 don't think the current protocol and architecture lets you=20 do
       this.

Dimitri - what = prevents=20 us today from saying we'd establish a=20 connection
          at = a given=20 point in time?

Lucy - all three options today don't = work.

Zafar -=20 can't see what we need beyond what GMPLS provides.

Lucy - your = connection=20 request doesn't have a future time in it.

Zafar - there are so = many ways=20 you could do it.  Nothing to do=20 with
        protocol.

Lucy = -=20 carriers currently rely on management plane to do it.  If we=20 have
       a CP then how do we combine = them?

Zafar - local decision?

Lucy - A network resource = you need=20 to reserve.  Signalling doesn't = let
      =20 you know time.

Zafar - can take offline...

Rowen - you do=20 signalling to future allocate resources? So do you=20 keep
        full state of future=20 services?

Lucy - we can work that out in = implementation.

Rowen -=20 do you keep states in network for services that aren't=20 running?
        That's a major = scaling=20 issue.

Lucy - that's an implementation issue.

George - = It's a=20 major scaling issue in building a switch.  Also=20 issues
         in terms of=20 recovering stuff in event of failure.  Better=20 to
         leave stuff in = the mgmt=20 system and have CP as a slave.

Lucy - we already have PCE etc. so = don't=20 need to embed this in the nodes

George - when pull out of = network, it is=20 mgmt plane.

Lucy - PCE is out of network but is CP.

George = - PCE=20 isn't part of GMPLS CP.  Not suggesting we put this=20 in
         routing and=20 signalling?  E.g. signal with RSVP-TE ahead=20 of
         time?

Lucy = - there=20 are different ways to implement this, not suggesting=20 one
       here.

George - don't = think is=20 good idea to put this in the switches. =20 Topology
         may change = between=20 making request and reserving it.  So=20 not
         very useful to = embed the=20 info too close to where you're=20 going
         to deploy=20 it.

Lucy - I agree.

George - two things need to happen = before we=20 consider this.  (1) need=20 to
         hear from SPs = that it's a=20 real need.  Not many SPs want to=20 keep
         dark fibre = around to=20 light up instantaneously.  (2) need=20 to
         clarify the = architecture=20 in terms of what is control and=20 what
         is=20 management...

Gert - we have application like this running for = two=20 years.  Never had
       req. from = service=20 provider to put anything in the control=20 plane.
       So doubt if this is=20 useful...

Dimitri - I have one question.  where shall I put = the=20 resource
          = management=20 state.  If I don't see a cost/benefit ratio=20 which
          is = better than=20 what we do today then won't do it.  There is=20 a
          temptation = to make=20 the control plane have all the features=20 of
          the = management=20 plane - really dangerous as end up with=20 a
          distributed=20 management plane...

Adrian - Keep hearing people say don't put = mgmt plane=20 in CP.  I think = I
         heard=20 Lucy say that too. So we all=20 agreed...

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
8.=20 CCAMP Liaison responses (chairs) [25, 120/120]
  - OIF Signaling = for MEF=20 Requirements
  - OIF VLAN ID Requirements
  - OIF = Interworking=20 Cookbook
  - SG15 Related

Slides

Background=20 reading
  - CCAMP incoming=20 correspondence
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Dropped=20 from the agenda due to lack of time.
Adrian - please look at slides = on=20 liaison work.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C77172.ACFFD779-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:27:19 +0000 Message-ID: <0da801c7716f$0f071760$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ross Callon" , "Dave Ward" , "Scott Bradner" Subject: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG 15 : VCAT Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:26:49 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here is the second draft liaison to go to ITU-T SG15. Again, comments by end of 3rd April, please. (Plenty more to follow, but we will try to turn them out a few at a time.) Thanks, Adrian and Deborah === To: ITU-T SG15 From: IETF CCAMP Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward Subject: VCAT/LCAS Work in CCAMP For Comment Deadline: 25th June 2007 The CCAMP working group thanks you for your liaison "Liaison Statement to CCAMP regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" dated March 2007. We are not sure that the Internet-Draft draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt does use mechanisms defined by ITU-T SG 15 in Recommendations G.7041 and G.7042. We believe that the intention is to enable the use of such mechanisms in a GMPLS network Nevertheless, we note your interest in this work and would welcome your comments especially with respect to the applicability of this work to an ASON network. The current published version of this work can be found at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt. Please note, however, that a new version of this draft is currently being prepared by the authors that makes extensive changes to the published material. Therefore, while we would welcome your comments, we suggest that you do not invest heavily in a detailed review at this stage. We will liaise future versions of this Internet-Draft to you as they become available. Best regards, Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:26:56 +0000 Message-ID: <0d9901c7716e$8529f850$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ross Callon" , "Dave Ward" , "Scott Bradner" Subject: Draft liaison to ITU-T SG15 : MLN work Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:22:56 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here is the first of a series of proposed liaisons to ITU-T Study Group 15. Please comment by end of business 3rd April. Thanks, Adrian and Deborah ==== To: ITU-T SG15 Cc: Stephen Trowbridge; Kam Lam; Scott Bradner; Ross Callon; Dave Ward Subject: Multi-Layer Networking (MLN) Work in CCAMP For Action Deadline: 18th May 2007 The CCAMP working group notes your request to review its work on Multi-Layer Networking (MLN) as indicated in your liaison "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" dated March 2007. We are nearing completion of our analysis of the requirements for MLN, and our evaluation of existing protocols, so now is an appropriate time for you review this material, and we would be grateful for your comments on or before the deadline marked above. The requirements work can be found at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-reqs-02.txt The protocol evaluation is at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-eval-02.txt In your review of this material, it may be helpful to pay particular care to understand the definition of MLN that is used. It may also be helpful to use some of the terminology interpretation presented in RFC4397. The CCAMP working group also anticipates working on protocol extensions to fill the lacunae identified by the protocol evaluation Internet-Draft. An individual submission on this subject may be found at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-papadimitriou-ccamp-gmpls-mrn-extensions-03.txt, but the working group has yet to make a decision about whether to accept this as the basis for the work. Best regards, Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard Co-chairs, IETF CCAMP Working Group Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:32:01 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C77145.11C00D09" Subject: Draft minutes Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:26:24 -0500 Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DE0D9D0@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> Thread-Topic: Draft minutes Thread-Index: AcdxRRCdqUTCXW4MTA6kyWZeoSa+ig== From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" To: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C77145.11C00D09 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's the minutes of the first session, much thanks to to the great notes of David McWalter and Lyndon Ong. Please check them, comment on missing items or corrections, and start to work on the items identified. Thanks, Deborah and Adrian --------------------------------------------------------------- =20 Sixty-eighth IETF, Prague, March 2007 Monday, March 19, 2007 0900-1130 Morning Session I RTG ccamp Common Control and Measurement Plane WG CCAMP Working Group Minutes, Session 1 of 2 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D CHAIRS: Adrian Farrel=20 Deborah Brungard=20 Note takers: David McWalter, Lyndon Ong Adrian opened, gave Note Well, noted that ccamp will meet *twice* in Prague. These minutes cover the Monday am meeting. Second meeting tomorrow, Tuesday 1pm. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 0. Administrivia (chairs) [5 mins: 5/150] Slides=20 Adrian asked for comments on agenda - none, for either session. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 1. WG status, RFCs, drafts, milestones (chairs) [10, 15/150] Slides=20 --0905 Adrian gave draft status. Plenty of work, progressing well. 6 new RFCs, 4 in editor queue, plus Crankback draft has just been sent to the RFC editor. Two drafts (rsvp-te-call and rsvp-restart-ext) are tied up in IESG review, both on security questions. 3 drafts in WGLC. gmpls-addressing and te-node-cap are ready for last call (Adrian believes the latter is already implemented and deployed). ethernet-traffic-parameters seems to be stable 10 more on today's agenda, 4 in pipeline. Dimitri at mic: commented that some discussion was ongoing as a result of OIF liaison. Adrian suggested closing with Lyndon offline, Deborah commented that we could close this in tomorrow's meeting. --0911 Deborah presented an update on draft-andersson-rtg-gmpls-change, which has just been approved as a BCP. Adrian noted that this commits ccamp to do work sometimes. The idea is that it encourages other SDOs to bring work to ccamp. Deborah went through charter milestones. We're 'only just behind'. --0913 Adrian recapped GELs progress. This will make up the first 30 minutes of tomorrow's agenda. GMPLS enhancements are required, and will happen in ccamp. Dataplane enhancements will not happen at the IETF. Adrian will discuss possible charter changes with Ross and Dave (new AD). ccamp will only work on a control plane for a clearly specified dataplane. IEEE is just starting work on this under the heading 802.1Qay, also known as PBBTE. Adrian said that because a dataplane specification is *forthcoming*, it is okay to start control plane work now ('pipeline' it). Dimitri at mic sought to clarify. Adrian replied that there is work that can happen now in advance of definition of label format, for example the traffic parameters we have already started on. Dimitri at mic also asked about scope of work. Adrian replied that we should look at things that break 3945 on a case-by-case basis. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 2. ITU-T and OIF progress report (Lyndon) [10, 25/150] Slides=20 Note: Discussion of responses to recent ITU-T and OIF liaisons will fall in the second CCAMP meeting on Tuesday afternoon. --0917 Lyndon presented ITU-T and OIF liaison. Lyndon was not at the ITU-T meeting a month ago, but has talked to the chair and quickly summarized the SG15 Q.14 work ongoing. Two liaisons: #1 Response to CCAMP reply on ASON, including requests for more information, some language concerns, and a clarifying point about call/connection separation. There was also a concern about use of liaisons versus use of individual participation. ITU felt that liason communicated group concensus and was valuable. Monique asked about about overlap SG13 Q5, which also deals with T-MPLS management. Lyndon wasn't familiar with this, but took an action to look at this. #2 Requested to review the GMPLS call draft and VCAT/LCAS drafts before they get to RFC. --0925 Lyndon summarized OIF status. E-NNI routing IA and UNI2.0 and E-NNI 2.0 signaling in progress. Again, two liaisons. #1 VLAN ID, where OIF wants to carry many VLAN ID 'labels' as part of an RSVP signaling message. OIF members accept that possibly this information isn't really part of a label. The EVC is the connection, and perhaps the VLAN ID list is just an attribute of that collection. Lyndon said OIF was open to looking at what was the best solution from a protocol standpoint. #2 OIF documents liaising current state of UNI 2.0 and E-NNI 2.0 documents. OIF will send an update when these documents are approved and stable. Adrian said that there is time at the end of tomorrow's meeting to draft a liaison back to OIF. Lyndon said that the VLAN ID issue is perhaps the priority. Deborah encouraged folks who could not make tomorrow's meeting to get in touch with Lyndon. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3. ASON Routing solutions (Dimitri) [10 35/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt --0929 Dimitri recapped on progress since IETF-67. Dimitri stressed that there is no implied relationship in these documents between MLN and multi-level routing. This is a problem for implementations. There is also a question of technology-specific extensions; these will go in separate documents. The main document will stay generic. For bandwidth accounting, a single generic mechanism will be defined that will cover packet, lambda, etc. If any more specific information is defined, then an extension document can be written. Also discussed resiliency and policy. Dimitri sought to exclude some of these points, on the basis that this document is 'a protocol spec', but which would support extensions for specific technologies or additional functions/management. Next steps: ready for last call? what review process? Adrian noted that there are questions that are not yet resolved that may require changes. Partly by keeping ITU in the loop, partly by closing technical discussions. Igor Bryskin at mic: asked about TE node identification using TE router IDs or routable addresses. Dimitri replied that this document wishes to be as simple as possible, and referred to RFC 3630, and asked about the rationale for TE router IDs today. This has been discussed on the list, perhaps a couple of years ago. Dimitri stressed that this has been discussed and agreed, and is not a new suggestion. Adrian asked if node IDs were guaranteed routable in the signaling plane Dimitri answered noting that they were an identification. Adrian said he wasn't asking whether it should or should not be routable he's just trying to understand. Dmitri replied they could be. Adrian asked if a summary would be that the node ID doesn't need to be routable, but a wise implementation would make it routable? Dimitri discussed that it may or may not be by 3630. Igor said he had expected a shorter answer from Dimitri, and raised an objection to the case where router IDs were not routable. Discussion between Igor and Dimitri continued. Summarizing: Igor asserts that the router ID should be a routable IP address. Dimitri says this is just one interpretation of RFC 3630, and other interpretations are possible; this is nothing new and it's nothing new that this draft is introducing. Igor asked 'how do you force it [TE node ID] to be routable?' Dimitri replied by again referring to RFC 3630. --0948 Adrian closed by suggesting that a clarification section needs adding to the draft, to answer Igor's concern. Dimitri took an action to do this and bounce it off Igor. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 4. VCAT/LCAS (Adrian) [15, 50/150] - Analysis of requirements - First proposal for solutions Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt --0949 Adrian said that for some reason that is not entirely clear to him, he gets to present this draft. This has been taken on as a working group draft. Notes, there has been a long ad hoc mailing list discussion on-going. Greg Bernstein is the main editor, but he could not make it to this meeting. Also there is a revision to the draft needed, but this didn't quite happen before this meeting. (Adrian will hit people if there is not a new revision soon). Requirements are stable, and the people listed in the foils are in agreement on this, so should make progress. CCAMP will need to liaise this work to ITU and OIF as it progresses. To summarize requirements; allow TDM LSPs to be signaled to support virual concatenation. RFC 4606 allows this, but then all members of VCG are co-routed. Now hardware allows VCG components to follow different paths. Need to associate LSPs to form a single group, with defined capabilities. Need a pool of 'spare' LSPs that can be added to VCGs at short notice. Determine ports/ interfaces at egress that can support VCGs, which is dependent on hardware capabilities. There are two options for associating LSPs. Can either use the association object (used for e2e), or using a GMPLS call. The latter is favoured, because only the endpoints care about the association. The VCG properties become call parameters, which works quite nicely. The problem that arises is management of the spare pool. It is suggested that this function requires LCAS in order to work. Determination of endpoint capabilities feels like a routing function, but doesn't scale well. So perhaps only basic node and link properties should be advertised via routing, with other properties negotiated as part of call setup. Lyndon at mic commented that the OIF has discussed this recently, and that there is a developing view in ITU that the dataplane looks like a layer built on SONET/SDH or STM. Does this mean that a separate signaling or routing layer is needed? This is confusing people a lot, because it adds flexibility but also overhead. Deborah asked Lyndon if Q14 or Q11 was developing this view of layering. Lyndon replied that he knows about Q14 but is not sure about Q11. It's coming out of a G805 idea that VCAT is a layer on its own. Adrian commented that LCAS is perhaps a separate layer, so VCG is really a client layer, which requests that LSPs are set up, co-ordinated and delivered to it as a service. So all that we have talked about is within a layer, but with something above it that says 'I want VCAT'. Adrian asked whether we should liaise with Q11 as well as Q14. Lyndon was unsure but agreed. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 5. Multi-Layer Networks (Kohei) [10, 60/150] - Strategy and plans to complete this work Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-reqs-02.txt - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-eval-02.txt - draft-papadimitriou-ccamp-gmpls-mrn-extensions-03.txt --1001 Kohei presented the MLN document set. Protocol extensions being defined; for example IACD (Internal Adaptation Capabilities Descriptor) TLV added to IGPs. There are two approaches to Virtual TE links at present. (i) Soft FA, which is a signaled LSP not established in the dataplane, and (ii) remote association, where LSPs are not signaled, but properties are exchanged between FA endpoint. These have different pros and cons. Comments have been received about Path diversity and SRLG inheritance. Kohei feels no protocol extensions are required, but that this is an issue for the management plane. Comments have also been received about directionality-ambiguity in adaptation information, but Kohei felt there was no ambiguity. Next steps are that the -reqs and -eval documents are close to WGLC. The solution doc is proposed as a WG document. Adrian is pleased to see this work proceeding again after a period of silence. Adrian said chairs should look at the documents to ensure they're ready for WGLC, and perhaps liaise them to ITU immediately (as they've expressed an interest), and this should allow them to respond in time for the end of last call. The timescales for the requirements drafts look about right. We'll poll the mailing list about adoption of the solutions draft after this meeting. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 6. MIB Module for GMPLS TE Database (Kenichi) [10, 70/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt --1009 Kenichi said that Tomohiro Otani could not attend. Originally this draft was created as an extension of OSPF MIBs for TE, but is being generalized to include both OSPF and IS-IS. Recent changes to this MIB module generalize OSPF-specific objects, and renames several objects. Adrian encouraged input from people who are going to implement and use this. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 7. OAM Requirements for GMPLS Networks (Kenichi) [10, 80/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-nadeau-ccamp-gmpls-oam-requirements-01.txt --1014 Kenichi also presented this, as Tomohiro Otani is not here. He explained how this responds to the WG charter item. It is also an issue that there is no definition of GMPLS OAM requirements beyond the RFC4377 MPLS requirements. Kenichi summarized a set of possible GMPLS OAM requirements (see slides). Loa Andersson (MPLS chair) at mic asked about relationship to MPLS OAM requirements; is a revision of the MPLS requirements document proposed? Adrian would not want to see anything that replaced or revised the MPLS work; would prefer a new document that pointed at the MPLS work and stated what was relevant and how they were extended. Loa Andersson: okay Dimitri asked a long question about control plane properties, and whether there was synchronous access to what it was transporting, and whether there were different requirements for circuit versus packet, and we should be clear about scope for the future. Adrian: I don't know. We should not be specifying Ethernet OAM; it is not our business. But maybe there are questions of co-ordination of OAM (for example between different layers) that we could help with. Control plane OAM is clearly ours. Adrian is struggling with this work, and is not clear what there is that should be done; Adrian is hopeful that this document will cystalize issues, and discussion on the list should make it clear whether there is really some work here. Dimitri worried that we shouldn't put too many purposes together into a single document. Adrian: Good advice. Don Fedyk agreed with Dimitri. When it says 'requirements', you need to have a technology in mind. It's good to have a list that says what OAM needs to do, but how this is satisfied depends on the technology. Adrian agreed. Dimitri doesn't want to see overloading of the GMPLS control plane. Deborah: Suggests look at the document; question of whether GMPLS will provide OAM for the dataplane is reviewed by the document; take a look at it. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 8. Conversion between Permanent Connections and Switched Connections (Diego) [10, 90/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-pc-and-sc-reqs-00.txt --1024 Diego: No comments received on the requirements ID since made a WG item. For caviglia solution draft, have received some comments from Dimitri on the list. Main problems are with failure scenarios during handover, to be solved in a draft update after this IETF. Adrian: We want to see that update, and then decide whether this is the solution we want for this problem space. Any questions? . =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 9. Multiple Nodes Graceful Restart (Dan) [10, 100/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-li-ccamp-multinodes-gr-proc-01.txt --1028 Dan: Summarized changes to draft since -00. Note that this draft now targets Informational status. Draft is stable, seeks WG acceptance. Adrian: When we were discussing the previous version, there were questions of whether this was needed at all. But there was a feeling that it would help people understand GR, and prevent needless development of protocol extensions already supported by GR. Show of hands; who would find this helpful? (6 or 7). Any objections (0). Lou Berger (at back mic) said the document still implies it is more than just an informational clarification. Document needs to be consistent with the proposal that no new procedures are defined. This is just an educational document, not a BCP. Adrian: Understand. We'll discuss on the list. Ina at mic: I haven't heard any requirement for this work from providers. Adrian: Agree, it would be good to have providers commenting. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 10. Graceful Shutdown (Zafar) [10, 110/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt --1035 Zafar Presented some protocol details that have been discussed: One comment on the list was with respect to how to get out of graceful shutdown state so traffic can be moved to alternate path. Both MBB and FRR segment recovery have been suggested. This has been addressed by saying that PathError must be propagated to Ingress, but branch nodes can make local decisions about applying FRR. Another comment about shutdown of stitched LSPs, which are signaled as distinct LSPs in the control plane. The document has been updated with a solution about these and for the case of bundled links. Finally, overloading error code from RFC 4736, which requires LSPs to do re-optimization on receipt of certain error codes. This draft relies on optimization at ingress, but extends this handling to other branch nodes on the path. Wording is difficult here; anyone with objections should let authors know. Next steps, need to address a nit. Adrian: What is this nit? Zafar: just need to clarify a sentence about how something or other applies to a link. Adrian: Okay, just need to address this in next revision and then will be ready for last call. Adrian: Do we know of any implementations? Zaar: No. Adrian: Okay, I'll ask on the list and people can reply in private if they need to. Zafar: Thank-you. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 11. MPLS/GMPLS Security Discussions 11a. MPLS/GMPLS Security Framework (Luyuan) [15, 125/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-fang-mpls-gmpls-security-framework-00.txt --1042 Luyuan: There is a large design team for this work (see 1st slide). We presented this in IETF-67, and called for interest. The design team then formed. -00 draft was issued before this meeting. Will be presented at both MPLS and CCAMP. Why did we start a security framework at this point, given what has been done in MPLS already? The trigger was that the security ADs and reviewers had questioned some GMPLS drafts, and wondered whether GMPLS security had been adequately addressed in the past. Questions started with p2mp, but then went back to TE and fundamental parts of GMPLS. Ross and others asked for a single draft to discuss all MPLS/GMPLS security issues. Any other drafts in MPLS/GMPLS should point to this draft as the general framework. Protocol extensions with their own security concerns must address them themselves. Objective is to make this an informational RFC as quickly as possible. Will address security implementation implications for several protocols, including LDP, RSVP-TE, PCE, P2MP/LDP, VPNs, PWs, inter-provider, etc. Scope is broader than core just GMPLS. However, general security concerns will not be addressed (will reference existing security drafts). Luyuan then outlined the content of the -00 draft. Adrian: I'm really impressed with the quantity and quality of work that has gone into this draft in a short time. Luyuan: Thanks, it was a team effort. Dimitri: Wondered about duplication of work between this an rpsec/sidr. Luyuan: Scope is a little bit fuzzy. Some content will touch on routing protocols but this is not the focus. Dimitri: Further question about assuming modes of operation; should the draft state the modes of operation under which the network is assumed to run. Luyuan: Again, scope is difficult. Document looks to demonstrate that with proper procedure adding MPLS/GMPLS to a network does not make it less secure. Dimitri: Again sought to clarify which 'running mechanisms' were being employed in particular deployments being considered by this security draft. Luyuan/Dimitri closed agreeably. Adrian: Asked George if this work would be owned by the MPLS WG. George Swallow: That's my understanding, but Ross can overrule me. Adrian: He wouldn't dare. Loa: Agree with George. Ross: Has no opinion on whether this is MPLS/CCAMP. Can last call it in both. No strong opinion, but tend to prefer MPLS unless others object. Kireeti: Should be owned by MPLS, because some bits are MPLS-specific. Adrian is happy that someone else is doing the work. Adrian: Asked Monique about whether this overlaps with work done by IPSphere. Monique (from floor): No. 11b. Security AD issues with TE Calls (Adrian) [10, 135/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-04.txt 11c. Security AD issues with Graceful Restart (Adrian) [10, 145/150] Slides=20 Background reading - draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-restart-ext-08.txt -1058 Adrian: To close, want to look at two drafts going through security AD review, related to what Luyuan has just presented. There are two major questions about the GR draft. #1 What would happen if a downstream neighbour of a restarting node sent a false RecoveryPath message, either accidentally or as a result of downstream node being subverted. #2 What damage could be done to the restarting node control/data plane as a result of such a bogus message? Adrian has pasted a long discussion thread on this to ccamp list. Trust model in ccamp is peer-to-peer; peers with whom messages are exchanged are authenticated. This isn't about attacks from strangers; it is about subverted RSVP-TE nodes. Adrian questions why this is of particular reference to GR? Surely any subverted node could take a variety of actions at any time in the protocol (for example, corrupting routes in path messages). Adrian also points out that RecoveryPath is verified against the dataplane on the restarting node. There was also a discussion about falsified EROs, and what the consequences might be. On the TE-Call draft there were issues about Notify messages which are end-to-end communication; a new concept? How are keys established with Notify recipients? Is Notify processing a necessary part of call processing? This leads to a question of whether an automated key distribution mechanism is required. Security of calls is definitely a concern, but again Notify processing is not specific to calls. Either RSVP-TE security or IPeec (if tunneling) can be used to authenticate origin of Notify messages. Can also use RSVP forwarding to propagate Notify messages hop-by-hop, which makes use of RSVP peer authentication as above. For the restart draft, the ADs are not really totally convinced, and would like ccamp to describe what could happen if each message was spoofed. This strikes Adrian as being a lot of work. For the call draft, an RFC 4107 analysis is asked for. Next step will be to have face-to-face discussions with ADs at this IETF to try to get these drafts moved forward, and to clarify the security framework so this does not happen to other drafts in future. Yakov Rechter at mic: Would it address GR concern if processing was restricted to a single service provider (implying same trust domain). Adrian doesn't see that the Security AD would be happy with this because he is talking about node subversion which could be in a domain. Yakov: Indeed, what would happen if all your routers were subverted? Adrian: I don't know. Lou: (commented about unreasonableness of feedback from ADs) Adrian: Yes, perhaps ADs will say 'all of your work is broken, stop'. Lou: Come on, there's history and deployed protocols here. ADs are welcome to say it's all broken, and there is a new work item to make a working protocol to address all this. We should push back very strongly, and not let this stop us from doing our work. Adrian: Thanks. Dimitri: Tried to clarify what the questions being answered were. Ross: I'm trying to figure out what I should actually say. I don't want to get shot. I have mixed feelings. When my laptop boots up, it says 'you might be infected'. Actually I know my laptop is infected. Routers might be too. It's not hard to infect routers; administrators use stupid passwords, you can configure routers to bring down the network. However, no vendor is going to implement the command 'please send wrong information on graceful restart'. The bottom line is that there's not a lot of reason for us to define something that no-one has any interest in buying. That's one view. Another view is that the internet isn't as secure as it should be. But if no-one builds it, there's no point the spec saying it. In the specific case of the restart work, Ross talked to a member of the security directorate. Perhaps we don't need to do anything about it, but the directorate would like to know what a router would do if it was subverted. Would the conflicting information be detected? We could try to figure out what an implementation would do if it got different information from downstream neighbours and put that in the draft. That might be enough for this draft, I hope. Zafar: I'm a little bit concerned about the notify message. There's something you mentioned about making it hop-by-hop, but this would be more like a PathErr message. Could you specify what you mean? Adrian: On notify, RFC 3473 specifies these two methods, and points out a way to do security is hop-by-hop. Zafar: Has concerns with this. Adrian: Yes, but these are tradeoffs you may need to make to get e2e security. Yakov Rechter: Wanted to respond to Ross's point about how things only get implemented if people are prepared to pay for it. It's presumptious to say that 2 or 3 people in the IESG know what's good for everyone. The IETF needs to address this problem. Adrian: Watch this space. Ross and I will report back to the mailing list after we've held our side-meetings. Zafar: Every node does local checks it can do against the ERO. If every node does that (I think implementations do), much of the information passed by the neighbor is checked. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 1121 Adrain: Okay, if we're done then perhaps this is a good time for folks interested in MEF to gather at the front and talk about it. We're done, see you tomorrow. *********************************************************** ------_=_NextPart_001_01C77145.11C00D09 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here's = the minutes=20 of the first session, much thanks to to the great notes of David = McWalter and=20 Lyndon Ong. Please check them, comment on missing items or corrections, = and=20 start to work on the items identified.
Thanks,
Deborah and=20 Adrian
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Sixty-eighth IETF, Prague, March 2007

Monday, March 19, 2007
0900-1130 Morning Session I
RTG    ccamp    Common Control and Measurement Plane WG

CCAMP Working Group Minutes, Session 1 of 2
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CHAIRS: Adrian Farrel 
        Deborah Brungard 

Note takers: David McWalter, Lyndon Ong

Adrian opened, gave Note Well, noted that ccamp will meet *twice* in
Prague.
These minutes cover the Monday am meeting.
Second meeting tomorrow, Tuesday 1pm.

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0. Administrivia (chairs) [5 mins: 5/150]
Slides 

Adrian asked for comments on agenda - none, for either session.
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1. WG status, RFCs, drafts, milestones (chairs) [10, 15/150]
Slides 

--0905 Adrian gave draft status.  Plenty of work, progressing well.
       6 new RFCs, 4 in editor queue, plus Crankback draft has just been
       sent to the RFC editor.
       Two drafts (rsvp-te-call and rsvp-restart-ext) are tied up in
       IESG review, both on security questions.
       3 drafts in WGLC.
       gmpls-addressing and te-node-cap are ready for last call (Adrian
       believes the latter is already implemented and deployed).
       ethernet-traffic-parameters seems to be stable
       10 more on today's agenda, 4 in pipeline.

Dimitri at mic: commented that some discussion was ongoing as a result
       of OIF liaison.  Adrian suggested closing with Lyndon offline,
       Deborah commented that we could close this in tomorrow's meeting.

--0911 Deborah presented an update on draft-andersson-rtg-gmpls-change,
       which has just been approved as a BCP.
       Adrian noted that this commits ccamp to do work sometimes.  The
       idea is that it encourages other SDOs to bring work to ccamp.

       Deborah went through charter milestones.  We're 'only just
       behind'.

--0913 Adrian recapped GELs progress.  This will make up the first 30
       minutes of tomorrow's agenda.  GMPLS enhancements are required,
       and will happen in ccamp.  Dataplane enhancements will not happen
       at the IETF.  Adrian will discuss possible charter changes with
       Ross and Dave (new AD). ccamp will only work on a control plane
       for a clearly specified dataplane.  IEEE is just starting work on
       this under the heading 802.1Qay, also known as PBBTE.  Adrian
       said that because a dataplane specification is *forthcoming*, it
       is okay to start control plane work now ('pipeline' it).
Dimitri at mic sought to clarify.  Adrian replied that there is work
       that can happen now in advance of definition of label format, for
       example the traffic parameters we have already started on.
Dimitri at mic also asked about scope of work.  Adrian replied that we
       should look at things that break 3945 on a case-by-case basis.
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2. ITU-T and OIF progress report (Lyndon) [10, 25/150]
Slides 

Note: Discussion of responses to recent ITU-T and OIF liaisons
will fall in the second CCAMP meeting on Tuesday afternoon.

--0917 Lyndon presented ITU-T and OIF liaison.
       Lyndon was not at the ITU-T meeting a month ago, but has talked
       to the chair and quickly summarized the SG15 Q.14 work ongoing.
       Two liaisons:
       #1  Response to CCAMP reply on ASON, including requests for more
           information, some language concerns, and a clarifying point
           about call/connection separation.  There was also a concern
           about use of liaisons versus use of individual participation.
           ITU felt that liason communicated group concensus and was
           valuable.
Monique asked about about overlap SG13 Q5, which also deals with T-MPLS
           management.  Lyndon wasn't familiar with this, but took an
           action to look at this.
       #2  Requested to review the GMPLS call draft and VCAT/LCAS drafts
           before they get to RFC.

--0925 Lyndon summarized OIF status.  E-NNI routing IA and UNI2.0 and
       E-NNI 2.0 signaling in progress.  Again, two liaisons.
       #1  VLAN ID, where OIF wants to carry many VLAN ID 'labels' as
           part of an RSVP signaling message.  OIF members accept that
           possibly this information isn't really part of a label.  The
           EVC is the connection, and perhaps the VLAN ID list is just
           an attribute of that collection.  Lyndon said OIF was open to
           looking at what was the best solution from a protocol
           standpoint.
       #2  OIF documents liaising current state of UNI 2.0 and E-NNI 2.0
           documents.  OIF will send an update when these documents are
           approved and stable.

Adrian said that there is time at the end of tomorrow's meeting to draft
       a liaison back to OIF.
Lyndon said that the VLAN ID issue is perhaps the priority.
Deborah encouraged folks who could not make tomorrow's meeting to get in
       touch with Lyndon.
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3. ASON Routing solutions (Dimitri) [10 35/150]
Slides 
Background reading
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt

--0929 Dimitri recapped on progress since IETF-67.  Dimitri stressed
       that there is no implied relationship in these documents between
       MLN and multi-level routing.  This is a problem for
       implementations. There is also a question of technology-specific
       extensions; these will go in separate documents.  The main
       document will stay generic. For bandwidth accounting, a single
       generic mechanism will be defined that will cover packet, lambda,
       etc.  If any more specific information is defined, then an
       extension document can be written.
       Also discussed resiliency and policy.  Dimitri sought to exclude
       some of these points, on the basis that this document is 'a
       protocol spec', but which would support extensions for specific
       technologies or additional functions/management.
       Next steps: ready for last call? what review process?
Adrian noted that there are questions that are not yet resolved that may
       require changes.  Partly by keeping ITU in the loop, partly by
       closing technical discussions.
Igor Bryskin at mic: asked about TE node identification using TE router
       IDs or routable addresses.  Dimitri replied that this document
       wishes to be as simple as possible, and referred to RFC 3630, and
       asked about the rationale for TE router IDs today.  This has been
       discussed on the list, perhaps a couple of years ago.  Dimitri
       stressed that this has been discussed and agreed, and is not a
       new suggestion.
Adrian asked if node IDs were guaranteed routable in the signaling plane
       Dimitri answered noting that they were an identification.
Adrian said he wasn't asking whether it should or should not be routable
       he's just trying to understand.  Dmitri replied they could be.
Adrian asked if a summary would be that the node ID doesn't need to be
       routable, but a wise implementation would make it routable?
Dimitri discussed that it may or may not be by 3630.
Igor said he had expected a shorter answer from Dimitri, and raised an
       objection to the case where router IDs were not routable.
       Discussion between Igor and Dimitri continued.
       Summarizing: Igor asserts that the router ID should be a
       routable IP address.  Dimitri says this is just one
       interpretation of RFC 3630, and other interpretations are
       possible; this is nothing new and it's nothing new that this
       draft is introducing.
Igor asked 'how do you force it [TE node ID] to be routable?'
       Dimitri replied by again referring to RFC 3630.

--0948 Adrian closed by suggesting that a clarification section needs
       adding to the draft, to answer Igor's concern.  Dimitri took an
       action to do this and bounce it off Igor.
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4. VCAT/LCAS (Adrian) [15, 50/150]
  - Analysis of requirements
  - First proposal for solutions
Slides 
Background reading
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt

--0949 Adrian said that for some reason that is not entirely clear to
       him, he gets to present this draft.  This has been taken on as
       a working group draft.  Notes, there has been a long ad hoc
       mailing list discussion on-going. Greg Bernstein is the main
       editor, but he could not make it to this meeting.  Also there is
       a revision to the draft needed, but this didn't quite happen
       before this meeting.  (Adrian will hit people if there is not a
       new revision soon).
       Requirements are stable, and the people listed in the foils are
       in agreement on this, so should make progress.  CCAMP will need
       to liaise this work to ITU and OIF as it progresses.
       To summarize requirements; allow TDM LSPs to be signaled to
       support virual concatenation. RFC 4606 allows this, but then all
       members of VCG are co-routed.  Now hardware allows VCG components
       to follow different paths.  Need to associate LSPs to form a
       single group, with defined capabilities.  Need a pool of 'spare'
       LSPs that can be added to VCGs at short notice.  Determine ports/
       interfaces at egress that can support VCGs, which is dependent on
       hardware capabilities.
       There are two options for associating LSPs.  Can either use the
       association object (used for e2e), or using a GMPLS call.  The
       latter is favoured, because only the endpoints care about the
       association.  The VCG properties become call parameters, which
       works quite nicely.  The problem that arises is management of the
       spare pool.   It is suggested that this function requires LCAS in
       order to work.
       Determination of endpoint capabilities feels like a routing
       function, but doesn't scale well.  So perhaps only basic node and
       link properties should be advertised via routing, with other
       properties negotiated as part of call setup.
Lyndon at mic commented that the OIF has discussed this recently, and
       that there is a developing view in ITU that the dataplane looks
       like a layer built on SONET/SDH or STM.  Does this mean that a
       separate signaling or routing layer is needed?  This is confusing
       people a lot, because it adds flexibility but also overhead.
Deborah asked Lyndon if Q14 or Q11 was developing this view of layering.
       Lyndon replied that he knows about Q14 but is not sure about Q11.
       It's coming out of a G805 idea that VCAT is a layer on its own.
Adrian commented that LCAS is perhaps a separate layer, so VCG is really
       a client layer, which requests that LSPs are set up, co-ordinated
       and delivered to it as a service.  So all that we have talked
       about is within a layer, but with something above it that says
       'I want VCAT'.
Adrian asked whether we should liaise with Q11 as well as Q14.  Lyndon
       was unsure but agreed.
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5. Multi-Layer Networks (Kohei) [10, 60/150]
  - Strategy and plans to complete this work
Slides 
Background reading
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-reqs-02.txt
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-eval-02.txt
  - draft-papadimitriou-ccamp-gmpls-mrn-extensions-03.txt

--1001 Kohei presented the MLN document set.
       Protocol extensions being defined; for example IACD (Internal
       Adaptation Capabilities Descriptor) TLV added to IGPs.
       There are two approaches to Virtual TE links at present.
       (i) Soft FA, which is a signaled LSP not established in the
           dataplane, and
       (ii) remote association, where LSPs are not signaled, but
            properties are exchanged between FA endpoint.
       These have different pros and cons. Comments have been received
       about Path diversity and SRLG inheritance. Kohei feels no
       protocol extensions are required, but that this is an issue for
       the management plane.  Comments have also been received about
       directionality-ambiguity in adaptation information, but Kohei
       felt there was no ambiguity.
       Next steps are that the -reqs and -eval documents are close to
       WGLC.
       The solution doc is proposed as a WG document.
Adrian is pleased to see this work proceeding again after a period of
       silence. Adrian said chairs should look at the documents to
       ensure they're ready for WGLC, and perhaps liaise them to ITU
       immediately (as they've expressed an interest), and this should
       allow them to respond in time for the end of last call.  The
       timescales for the requirements drafts look about right.  We'll
       poll the mailing list about adoption of the solutions draft after
       this meeting.
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6. MIB Module for GMPLS TE Database (Kenichi) [10, 70/150]
Slides 
Background reading
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt

--1009 Kenichi said that Tomohiro Otani could not attend.
       Originally this draft was created as an extension of OSPF MIBs
       for TE, but is being generalized to include both OSPF and IS-IS.
       Recent changes to this MIB module generalize OSPF-specific
       objects, and renames several objects.
Adrian encouraged input from people who are going to implement and use
       this.
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7. OAM Requirements for GMPLS Networks (Kenichi) [10, 80/150]
Slides 
Background reading
  - draft-nadeau-ccamp-gmpls-oam-requirements-01.txt

--1014 Kenichi also presented this, as Tomohiro Otani is not here.  He
       explained how this responds to the WG charter item.  It is also
       an issue that there is no definition of GMPLS OAM requirements
       beyond the RFC4377 MPLS requirements.  Kenichi summarized a set
       of possible GMPLS OAM requirements (see slides).
Loa Andersson (MPLS chair) at mic asked about relationship to MPLS OAM
       requirements; is a revision of the MPLS requirements document
       proposed?
Adrian would not want to see anything that replaced or revised the MPLS
       work; would prefer a new document that pointed at the MPLS work
       and stated what was relevant and how they were extended.
Loa Andersson: okay
Dimitri asked a long question about control plane properties, and
       whether there was synchronous access to what it was transporting,
       and whether there were different requirements for circuit versus
       packet, and we should be clear about scope for the future.
Adrian: I don't know.  We should not be specifying Ethernet OAM; it is
       not our business.  But maybe there are questions of co-ordination
       of OAM (for example between different layers) that we could help
       with.  Control plane OAM is clearly ours.  Adrian is struggling
       with this work, and is not clear what there is that should be
       done; Adrian is hopeful that this document will cystalize issues,
       and discussion on the list should make it clear whether there is
       really some work here.
Dimitri worried that we shouldn't put too many purposes together into a
       single document.
Adrian: Good advice.
Don Fedyk agreed with Dimitri.  When it says 'requirements', you need to
       have a technology in mind.  It's good to have a list that says
       what OAM needs to do, but how this is satisfied depends on the
       technology.
Adrian agreed.
Dimitri doesn't want to see overloading of the GMPLS control plane.
Deborah: Suggests look at the document; question of whether GMPLS will
       provide OAM for the dataplane is reviewed by the document; take a
       look at it.
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8. Conversion between Permanent Connections and Switched Connections =
(Diego) [10, 90/150]
Slides 
Background reading
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-pc-and-sc-reqs-00.txt

--1024 Diego: No comments received on the requirements ID since made a
       WG item. For caviglia solution draft, have received some comments
       from Dimitri on the list.  Main problems are with failure
       scenarios during handover, to be solved in a draft update after
       this IETF.
Adrian: We want to see that update, and then decide whether this is the
       solution we want for this problem space.  Any questions? .
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9. Multiple Nodes Graceful Restart (Dan) [10, 100/150]
Slides 
Background reading
  - draft-li-ccamp-multinodes-gr-proc-01.txt

--1028 Dan: Summarized changes to draft since -00.  Note that this draft
       now targets Informational status.  Draft is stable, seeks WG
       acceptance.
Adrian: When we were discussing the previous version, there were
       questions of whether this was needed at all.  But there was a
       feeling that it would help people understand GR, and prevent
       needless development of protocol extensions already supported by
       GR.  Show of hands; who would find this helpful? (6 or 7).  Any
       objections (0).
Lou Berger (at back mic) said the document still implies it is more than
       just an informational clarification.  Document needs to be
       consistent with the proposal that no new procedures are defined.
       This is just an educational document, not a BCP.
Adrian: Understand.  We'll discuss on the list.
Ina at mic: I haven't heard any requirement for this work from
       providers.
Adrian: Agree, it would be good to have providers commenting.
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10. Graceful Shutdown (Zafar) [10, 110/150]
Slides 
Background reading
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt

--1035 Zafar Presented some protocol details that have been discussed:
       One comment on the list was with respect to how to get out of
       graceful shutdown state so traffic can be moved to alternate
       path.  Both MBB and FRR segment recovery have been suggested.
       This has been addressed by saying that PathError must be
       propagated to Ingress, but branch nodes can make local decisions
       about applying FRR.
       Another comment about shutdown of stitched LSPs, which are
       signaled as distinct LSPs in the control plane.  The document has
       been updated with a solution about these and for the case of
       bundled links.
       Finally, overloading error code from RFC 4736, which requires
       LSPs to do re-optimization on receipt of certain error codes.
       This draft relies on optimization at ingress, but extends this
       handling to other branch nodes on the path.  Wording is difficult
       here; anyone with objections should let authors know.
       Next steps, need to address a nit.
Adrian: What is this nit? Zafar: just need to clarify a sentence about
       how something or other applies to a link.
Adrian: Okay, just need to address this in next revision and then will
       be ready for last call.
Adrian: Do we know of any implementations?  Zaar: No.  Adrian: Okay,
       I'll ask on the list and people can reply in private if they need
       to.
Zafar: Thank-you.
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11. MPLS/GMPLS Security Discussions
11a. MPLS/GMPLS Security Framework (Luyuan) [15, 125/150]
     Slides 
     Background reading
       - draft-fang-mpls-gmpls-security-framework-00.txt

--1042 Luyuan: There is a large design team for this work (see 1st =
slide).
     We presented this in IETF-67, and called for interest.  The design
     team then formed.  -00 draft was issued before this meeting.  Will
     be presented at both MPLS and CCAMP.  Why did we start a security
     framework at this point, given what has been done in MPLS already?
     The trigger was that the security ADs and reviewers had questioned
     some GMPLS drafts, and wondered whether GMPLS security had been
     adequately addressed in the past.
     Questions started with p2mp, but then went back to TE and
     fundamental parts of GMPLS.  Ross and others asked for a single
     draft to discuss all MPLS/GMPLS security issues.  Any other drafts
     in MPLS/GMPLS should point to this draft as the general framework.
     Protocol extensions with their own security concerns must address
     them themselves.
     Objective is to make this an informational RFC as quickly as
     possible. Will address security implementation implications for
     several protocols, including LDP, RSVP-TE, PCE, P2MP/LDP, VPNs,
     PWs, inter-provider, etc. Scope is broader than core just GMPLS.
     However, general security concerns will not be addressed (will
     reference existing security drafts).
     Luyuan then outlined the content of the -00 draft.
Adrian: I'm really impressed with the quantity and quality of work that
     has gone into this draft in a short time.
Luyuan: Thanks, it was a team effort.
Dimitri: Wondered about duplication of work between this an rpsec/sidr.
Luyuan: Scope is a little bit fuzzy. Some content will touch on routing
     protocols but this is not the focus.
Dimitri: Further question about assuming modes of operation; should the
     draft state the modes of operation under which the network is
     assumed to run.
Luyuan: Again, scope is difficult. Document looks to demonstrate that
     with proper procedure adding MPLS/GMPLS to a network does not make
     it less secure.
Dimitri: Again sought to clarify which 'running mechanisms' were being
     employed in particular deployments being considered by this
     security draft.
Luyuan/Dimitri closed agreeably.

Adrian: Asked George if this work would be owned by the MPLS WG.
George Swallow: That's my understanding, but Ross can overrule me.
Adrian: He wouldn't dare.
Loa: Agree with George.
Ross: Has no opinion on whether this is MPLS/CCAMP.  Can last call it in
     both. No strong opinion, but tend to prefer MPLS unless others
     object.
Kireeti: Should be owned by MPLS, because some bits are MPLS-specific.
Adrian is happy that someone else is doing the work.
Adrian: Asked Monique about whether this overlaps with work done by
     IPSphere.
Monique (from floor): No.

11b. Security AD issues with TE Calls (Adrian) [10, 135/150]
     Slides 
     Background reading
       - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-04.txt

11c. Security AD issues with Graceful Restart (Adrian) [10, 145/150]
     Slides 
     Background reading
     - draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-restart-ext-08.txt

-1058 Adrian: To close, want to look at two drafts going through
     security AD review, related to what Luyuan has just presented.
     There are two major questions about the GR draft.
     #1  What would happen if a downstream neighbour of a restarting
         node sent a false RecoveryPath message, either accidentally or
         as a result of downstream node being subverted.
     #2  What damage could be done to the restarting node control/data
         plane as a result of such a bogus message?
     Adrian has pasted a long discussion thread on this to ccamp list.
     Trust model in ccamp is peer-to-peer; peers with whom messages are
     exchanged are authenticated.  This isn't about attacks from
     strangers; it is about subverted RSVP-TE nodes.  Adrian questions
     why this is of particular reference to GR?  Surely any subverted
     node could take a variety of actions at any time in the protocol
     (for example, corrupting routes in path messages).  Adrian also
     points out that RecoveryPath is verified against the dataplane on
     the restarting node.  There was also a discussion about falsified
     EROs, and what the consequences might be.

     On the TE-Call draft there were issues about Notify messages which
     are end-to-end communication; a new concept?  How are keys
     established with Notify recipients?  Is Notify processing a
     necessary part of call processing?  This leads to a question of
     whether an automated key distribution mechanism is required.
     Security of calls is definitely a concern, but again Notify
     processing is not specific to calls.  Either RSVP-TE security or
     IPeec (if tunneling) can be used to authenticate origin of Notify
     messages.  Can also use RSVP forwarding to propagate Notify
     messages hop-by-hop, which makes use of RSVP peer authentication as
     above.

     For the restart draft, the ADs are not really totally convinced,
     and would like ccamp to describe what could happen if each message
     was spoofed.  This strikes Adrian as being a lot of work.

     For the call draft, an RFC 4107 analysis is asked for.

     Next step will be to have face-to-face discussions with ADs at this
     IETF to try to get these drafts moved forward, and to clarify the
     security framework so this does not happen to other drafts in
     future.

Yakov Rechter at mic: Would it address GR concern if processing was
     restricted to a single service provider (implying same trust
     domain).  Adrian doesn't see that the Security AD would be happy
     with this because he is talking about node subversion which could
     be in a domain.
Yakov: Indeed, what would happen if all your routers were subverted?
Adrian: I don't know.

Lou: (commented about unreasonableness of feedback from ADs)
Adrian: Yes, perhaps ADs will say 'all of your work is broken, stop'.
Lou: Come on, there's history and deployed protocols here.  ADs are
     welcome to say it's all broken, and there is a new work item to
     make a working protocol to address all this.  We should push back
     very strongly, and not let this stop us from doing our work.
Adrian: Thanks.

Dimitri: Tried to clarify what the questions being answered were.

Ross: I'm trying to figure out what I should actually say.  I don't want
     to get shot.  I have mixed feelings.  When my laptop boots up, it
     says 'you might be infected'.  Actually I know my laptop is
     infected.  Routers might be too.  It's not hard to infect routers;
     administrators use stupid passwords, you can configure routers to
     bring down the network.  However, no vendor is going to implement
     the command 'please send wrong information on graceful restart'.
     The bottom line is that there's not a lot of reason for us to
     define something that no-one has any interest in buying.  That's
     one view.
     Another view is that the internet isn't as secure as it should be.
     But if no-one builds it, there's no point the spec saying it.  In
     the specific case of the restart work, Ross talked to a member of
     the security directorate.  Perhaps we don't need to do anything
     about it, but the directorate would like to know what a router
     would do if it was subverted. Would the conflicting information be
     detected?  We could try to figure out what an implementation would
     do if it got different information from downstream neighbours and
     put that in the draft.  That might be enough for this draft, I
     hope.

Zafar: I'm a little bit concerned about the notify message.  There's
     something you mentioned about making it hop-by-hop, but this would
     be more like a PathErr message.  Could you specify what you mean?
Adrian: On notify, RFC 3473 specifies these two methods, and points out
     a way to do security is hop-by-hop.
Zafar: Has concerns with this.
Adrian: Yes, but these are tradeoffs you may need to make to get e2e
     security.

Yakov Rechter: Wanted to respond to Ross's point about how things only
     get implemented if people are prepared to pay for it.  It's
     presumptious to say that 2 or 3 people in the IESG know what's good
     for everyone.  The IETF needs to address this problem.

Adrian: Watch this space.  Ross and I will report back to the mailing
     list after we've held our side-meetings.

Zafar: Every node does local checks it can do against the ERO.  If every
     node does that (I think implementations do), much of the
     information passed by the neighbor is checked.


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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

1121 Adrain: Okay, if we're done then perhaps this is a good time for
     folks interested in MEF to gather at the front and talk about it.

     We're done, see you tomorrow.

***********************************************************
------_=_NextPart_001_01C77145.11C00D09-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:57:27 +0000 Message-ID: <097501c77077$6b92f240$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Subject: Fw: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 14:53:02 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, The Rapporteur of Question 14 of Study Group 15 of the ITU-T has indicated that we have a little more time to generate responses to their recent liaisons. Nevertheless, we will try to do what we can to get response out quickly where the actions are simple. Cheers, Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lam, Hing-Kam (Kam)" To: "Adrian Farrel" ; "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" Cc: "Ong, Lyndon" Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 9:37 PM Subject: RE: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Dear Adrian and Deborah, Slides 9, 10, & 11 indicate that the Q14/15 liaisons are just in and requesting response from ccamp by April 6th/2nd. Usually we set the expected responding date so that Q14/15 can consider the reply at the next meeting. This time, the Darmstadt meeting and the Chicago meeting are so close. I agree the notice is too short. So for these two Q14/15 liaisons, please take your time to have sufficient discussion within ccamp. If we can have the ccamp response by May 28 (Monday), we will be able to address it at the next SG15 Geneva meeting, which is June 4 - 15. Best Regards, Kam > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 11:39 AM > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses > > Hi, > > Would appreciate it if you looked at the various liaisons and > correspondence at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm and the slides > Deborah and I wrote at > http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07mar/slides/ccamp-19.ppt > > Please comment on any aspect of any of the correspondence as > Deborah and I try to put together responses. Would be nice if > your comments were on the CCAMP list rather than in private. > > Thanks, > Adrian Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 20:54:42 +0000 Message-ID: <087b01c76fe8$a12c0160$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Planned liaison responses to ITU-T SG15 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:51:24 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Thanks for the various conversations on and off list. In order to separate out the issues and avoid future confusion I plan to spawn a bunch of liaison responses to SG15. So far I have identified the following... 1. Response to "SG15 OTNT Standardization Work Plan" For Action List of current RFCs for inclusion by reference in the work plan. 2. Response to "SG15 OTNT Standardization Work Plan" For Information Current plans and rules of engagement for GELS work. 3. Response to "Liaison statement to ccamp regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" For Information Liaise current version of RSVP-TE Call I-D Explain current status Explain how I-D does not provide an ASON solution without additional work Give plans for additional work 4. Response to "Liaison statement to ccamp regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" For Information Liaise current version of VCAT/LCAS I-D Explain that a new revision that firms up requirements and starts on solutions is likely soon Promise to liaise the new revision when available 5. Response to "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" For Action Response to the issues of process raised. 6. Response to "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" For Action Responses to questions about ASON routing solution Liaise the latest copy of the I-D This item may also generate multiple liaisons if we find that there are too many retailed issues to respond to 7. Response to "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" For Comment Close down the issue related to call/connection separation 8. Response to "Liaison Statement to CCAMP responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" For Comment Liaise the latest versions of the MLN I-Ds as requested 9. Unsolicited New RFCs For Information I will start generating some draft text for these soon. Regards, Adrian Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:59:47 +0000 Message-ID: <05f101c76f95$c5bb86c0$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Subject: Fw: Non-member submission from ["Italo Busi" ] Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:58:57 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From italo.busi@alcatel-lucent.it Fri Mar 23 14:37:09 2007 > To: "Monique Morrow" , > "Huub van Helvoort" , > "Ong, Lyndon" > Cc: > Subject: RE: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work > > Monique, > > I apologize, but I cannot recall any OAM requirements for T-MPLS presented > by > Lyndon in his liaison report. > > Could you please point me a reference? > > Thanks, Italo > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org]On >> Behalf Of Monique Morrow >> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 11:01 AM >> To: Huub van Helvoort; Ong, Lyndon >> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org >> Subject: Re: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work >> >> >> My question was more specific to the OAM requirements for T-MPLS as >> presented by Lyndon in his liaison report >> >> Will these be different from those sourced in Q5/13? >> >> Monique >> >> >> On 22/3/07 5:20 am, "Huub van Helvoort" wrote: >> >> > Hello Lyndon, >> > >> > You wrote: >> > >> >> Monique had asked if the equipment specifications work in Q.14/15 in >> >> ITU-T on Ethernet-over-Transport and T-MPLS was in alignment with >> >> the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subjects. >> > >> > To avoid more confusion: >> > The equipment specifications are G.8021 for Transport Ethernet >> > and G.8121 for T-MPLS. Both are developed in Q9/15. >> > >> > Q14/15 is responsible for the management and control of that >> > system/equipment, i.e. G.EOT_mgmt and G.tmpls_mgmt >> > >> >> I received the >> >> following response from the Rapporteur for Q.14: >> >> >> >> The EoT and T-MPLS works in SG15 are in alignment with Q5/13, in >> >> particular, with Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS Mechanism) and Y.1731 (OAM >> >> functions and mechanisms for Ethernet based networks). >> > >> > Cheers, Huub. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:49:54 +0000 Message-ID: <059601c76f91$26c42bc0$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Subject: Fw:Non-member submission from ["Ken Young" ] Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:25:53 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From KenY@gridpointsystems.com Thu Mar 22 21:47:49 2007 > Subject: Re: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses > To: "Adrian Farrel" , > "Dimitri Papadimitriou" , > "Lyndon Ong" > Cc: , > > Adrian / Dimitri, > > I would support progressing the VLAN ID topic to be inline with the MEF. > > Lyndon and I had a quick follow up on the VLAN ID discussion in the hall > today. We both had different pictures of how this would work and > therefore we unsure what problem we were solving. This really > underline's Dimitri's point that we need to be sure "we have a correct > understanding of the problem". > > Lyndon suggested that he could provide a view of the MEF UNI parameters > and a view on which paramters need to be signaled from some work in the > OIF. Let's review this and see if we are on track. > > Cheers, > Ken Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:49:46 +0000 Message-ID: <059701c76f91$5f23a0e0$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Subject: Fw:Non-member submission from ["Ken Young" ] Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:27:29 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From KenY@gridpointsystems.com Thu Mar 22 22:23:34 2007 > Subject: RE: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses > To: "Ong, Lyndon" , > "Adrian Farrel" , > "Dimitri Papadimitriou" > Cc: , > > Lyndon, > > I believe your response was prompted by my first statement. I placed > that in the mail as a suggestion to Dimitri on how to progress the > discussion. He specifically stated: "do we want to progress on the > topic inline with MEF expectations?". I wanted to throw in my 2 cents > that I thought this was not a bad way to proceed. > > Since we seem to be in agreement, no worries. Sorry if I caused any > confusion. > > On your second statement, I would like to see the liason exchange with > the MEF. A pointer would be awesome. > > Thanks! > Ken > > ________________________________ > > From: Ong, Lyndon [mailto:Lyong@Ciena.com] > Sent: Thu 3/22/2007 18:12 > To: Ken Young; Adrian Farrel; Dimitri Papadimitriou > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses > > Hi Ken, > > We may have had a miscommunication here. I don't think there is any > question regarding the problem being solved, for the most part, only > how to solve it (for which OIF is asking IETF for help). > > Liaisons have been exchanged with MEF over the course of the last year > and MEF has responded encouraging the work to proceed. If you > want I can point you to this exchange. > > Cheers, > > Lyndon > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ken Young [mailto:KenY@gridpointsystems.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 2:47 PM > To: Adrian Farrel; Dimitri Papadimitriou; Ong, Lyndon > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Re: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses > > Adrian / Dimitri, > > I would support progressing the VLAN ID topic to be inline with the MEF. > > Lyndon and I had a quick follow up on the VLAN ID discussion in the hall > today. We both had different pictures of how this would work and > therefore we unsure what problem we were solving. This really > underline's Dimitri's point that we need to be sure "we have a correct > understanding of the problem". > > Lyndon suggested that he could provide a view of the MEF UNI parameters > and a view on which paramters need to be signaled from some work in the > OIF. Let's review this and see if we are on track. > > Cheers, > Ken Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:35:07 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.2.5.060620 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 04:32:43 -0400 Subject: Re: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work From: Monique Morrow To: Italo Busi , Huub van Helvoort , "Ong, Lyndon" CC: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work Thread-Index: AcdvgVKQkOS7L9t0EduEQwANk8LkKg== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1911; t=1174897969; x=1175761969; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=mmorrow@cisco.com; z=From:=20Monique=20Morrow=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20ITU-T=20Q.14/15=20alignment=20with=20ITU-T=20SG13=20w ork |Sender:=20; bh=6/MXteuIETo7KvkVysRUPTtzTpiO9fGtxB8YOVSdo6o=; b=dMloxekaS462NRzKWzIRZ6tzmojE4QYBqaJwTlc20rnGtMzILlUwrldBHrH8+5zh6tBrv0vL N9k3Ye79rKJmosmwhJlZDorVkOgMSB171KDM3CHOGJ8zcLoFZO1V45Jb; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=mmorrow@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); Italo, Was precisely my question in the context of network management as per his report. Lyndon has since cross checked with the rapporteur of Q.14. /m On 23/3/07 10:37 am, "Italo Busi" wrote: > Monique, > > I apologize, but I cannot recall any OAM requirements for T-MPLS presented by > Lyndon in his liaison report. > > Could you please point me a reference? > > Thanks, Italo > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org]On >> Behalf Of Monique Morrow >> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 11:01 AM >> To: Huub van Helvoort; Ong, Lyndon >> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org >> Subject: Re: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work >> >> >> My question was more specific to the OAM requirements for T-MPLS as >> presented by Lyndon in his liaison report >> >> Will these be different from those sourced in Q5/13? >> >> Monique >> >> >> >> >> On 22/3/07 5:20 am, "Huub van Helvoort" wrote: >> >>> Hello Lyndon, >>> >>> You wrote: >>> >>>> Monique had asked if the equipment specifications work in Q.14/15 in >>>> ITU-T on Ethernet-over-Transport and T-MPLS was in alignment with >>>> the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subjects. >>> >>> To avoid more confusion: >>> The equipment specifications are G.8021 for Transport Ethernet >>> and G.8121 for T-MPLS. Both are developed in Q9/15. >>> >>> Q14/15 is responsible for the management and control of that >>> system/equipment, i.e. G.EOT_mgmt and G.tmpls_mgmt >>> >>>> I received the >>>> following response from the Rapporteur for Q.14: >>>> >>>> The EoT and T-MPLS works in SG15 are in alignment with Q5/13, in >>>> particular, with Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS Mechanism) and Y.1731 (OAM >>>> functions and mechanisms for Ethernet based networks). >>> >>> Cheers, Huub. >> >> Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 10:17:54 +0000 To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: GELS slides - comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 11:14:43 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" o) slide 2 - draft-andersson (rev.01) " o Routing Protocol - OSPF-TE, we are running the OSPF-TE exactly as implemented by the Dragon project." -> are there more details available ? more importantly which TE information are carried that are of use for explicit route (computation, selection, etc.) section 3.3 suggest to make use of the LSP ATTRIBUTE object (that provides the flexibility of adding vectors of flags) - resource affinity can be still used per 3209 section 3.4 not sure to understand the purpose of using the suggested label as described o) slide 9 - bw reservation i would suggest parking this item in the more general context (to prevent specialization) o) slide 13 and slide 14 - clearly indicate the need supporting edge to edge ethernet LSP provisioning (explicit label control on the egress LSR) o) more generically for all mechanisms put in place for 802.1q and related (B, PB, and PBB) there is a wider question is GMPLS appropriate for the support of "domain wide" labels - i am not arguing in favor or against - i am just trying to solicit discussion on implications thanks, -d. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 22:16:00 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:12:10 -0400 Message-ID: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07015E4583@mdmxm02.ciena.com> Thread-Topic: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses thread-index: Acdsyam9ETLP1rayQeOLs9/dSAh7iwAA0vKA From: "Ong, Lyndon" To: "Ken Young" , "Adrian Farrel" , "Dimitri Papadimitriou" Cc: , Hi Ken, We may have had a miscommunication here. I don't think there is any question regarding the problem being solved, for the most part, only how to solve it (for which OIF is asking IETF for help). Liaisons have been exchanged with MEF over the course of the last year and MEF has responded encouraging the work to proceed. If you want I can point you to this exchange. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: Ken Young [mailto:KenY@gridpointsystems.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 2:47 PM To: Adrian Farrel; Dimitri Papadimitriou; Ong, Lyndon Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Adrian / Dimitri, =20 I would support progressing the VLAN ID topic to be inline with the MEF. =20 Lyndon and I had a quick follow up on the VLAN ID discussion in the hall today. We both had different pictures of how this would work and therefore we unsure what problem we were solving. This really underline's Dimitri's point that we need to be sure "we have a correct understanding of the problem". =20 Lyndon suggested that he could provide a view of the MEF UNI parameters and a view on which paramters need to be signaled from some work in the OIF. Let's review this and see if we are on track. =20 Cheers, Ken Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:18:37 +0000 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:16:20 +0100 To: "Ong, Lyndon" From: Lou Berger Subject: RE: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Cc: , "Adrian Farrel" ,, , "JONES Jim D" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-Id: A way to handle the MTU issue is to signal multiple independent LSPs. The LSPs could be bound together into a single logical connection (EVC) using the association object. This approach could be used with either the VID per LSP or the multi-VID per LSP approach. The difference is one of scaling and optimization; i.e., (a) the first has lots of LSPs, but has simple/standard VID change/add/drop procedures while (b) the second has few LSPs but will require specific procedures to handle VID changes/adds/drops. While intuition leads me to believe that (b) is the better way to go, we may want to get the feedback of those presenting the requirements. Lou At 08:49 AM 3/21/2007, Ong, Lyndon wrote: >Hi Folks, > >I agree with Dimitri regarding the ad hoc discussions on the VLAN ID, I >think >we are close to a working solution (albeit it does not handle the case >of >very large numbers of VLAN IDs due to the message size problem Dimitri >mentions). > >Regarding the interworking "cookbook", it may help for people to know >that this >was specifically scoped to the G.7713.2 and RFC 3473 specifications and >not >beyond this. > >Cheers, > >Lyndon > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On >Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be >Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 7:06 PM >To: Adrian Farrel >Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org >Subject: Re: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses > >adrian > >o) VLAN I-D > >i don't think this is a Call functionality > >"No information provided on UNI TSPEC expectations (e.g. granularity of >C-VLAN within EVC) in Liaison" > >i think this has been clarified on this list if my record is correct > >"Any outcome of ad hoc discussions yesterday?" > >rsv is associated to the vc and there are two modes 1:1 > and 1:N labels/session attr.> we can cover base cases as long as msg size >doesn't exceed MTU size >- the question wrt progress are 1) do we have a correct understanding of >the problem 2) do we want to progress on the topic inline with MEF >expectations 3) is the base mode acceptable until a more generic is >proposed (or shall we propose a single solution covering all cases) > >o) the following is odd, in a sense OIF asks to comment but is ignoring >what we have been developing since those where provided to eliminate >interworking with ASON (shouldn't that be our first comment ?) > >"Our comments are solicited >Cookbook objectives seem unclear (ignores GMPLS work on UNI, ENNI, >ASON)" > >o) you wrote "Can we help by describing how to map OIF UNI parameters to >GMPLS signalling?" i don't understand the question, the former is a >"profile" the latter a protocol - shouldn't be the other way around > >o) optical transport plane work - i don't clearly understand what's all >about but to the question > >"- No mention of GELS. Time to let them know?" answer is yes. the >point is that such exchange informative ? > >o) Send a complete list and ask for it to be included? > >yes > >o) * Recent liaison (just in) requests us to liaise >draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-04.txt "before it is published as an >RFC" and by April 2nd >- I-D is past IETF last call. Is it too late? > >that's not the question, the point is WHY ? because the applicability >I-D is not yet respined ? we should address this point by committing >charter milestones here > >o) routing > >"Asks us to supply details of our reasoning in selecting OSPF loop >prevention mechanisms rather than applying ISIS mechanisms to OSPF We >could supply this reasoning, but to what purpose? >We note that we previously asked if the ITU-T had any technical issues >with our choice and received no answer." > >isn't the answer obvious ? > >"Asks for further explanation of why we declined to change "an Li may be >advertised by only one Ri at any time" to "a TE link is only advertised >by one Ri at a time."" > >i'd like to re-state that the RFC 4652 (in its draft version) maintained >an open item on multiple Ri per Li - no answer, hence closed to re-open >pls provide reasoning (interest argument is a consequence not a cause) > >"Restates that we should use "MUST" not "optional" in describing the >inclusion of timeslot accounting information (section 4.2) This seems to >be a misunderstanding of context New revision of I-D clarifies the text >We can liaise back to thank them for prompting us to clarify" > >ok > >"Request liaison of any work on multi-layer networks We should do this >especially for the MLN requirements and evaluation that are soon to have >last call Very many of our I-Ds and some in PCE are applicable to >multi-layer networks. Liaise them all?" > >at least those on control plane at for the layers that concern ITU >meaning SDH & OTH, for the PCE ask to PCE, but what is their real >concern ? > >"Set respond-by date to coincide with end of WG last call? >Request explanation of how redistribution of information continues when >a redistribution point fails Simply send an explanation?" > >done > >o) call i-d > >no, i think we're done > >note i observe that the list of discussion points is quite large most of >those are non-issues we should ask for splitting real concerns from >informational aspects > >thanks, >-d. > > > > > >"Adrian Farrel" >Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org >20/03/2007 16:39 >Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" > > To: > cc: > Subject: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses > > >Hi, > >Would appreciate it if you looked at the various liaisons and >correspondence at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm and the slides Deborah and >I wrote at http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07mar/slides/ccamp-19.ppt > >Please comment on any aspect of any of the correspondence as Deborah and >I > >try to put together responses. Would be nice if your comments were on >the CCAMP list rather than in private. > >Thanks, >Adrian Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:02:56 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.2.5.060620 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 06:01:28 -0400 Subject: Re: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work From: Monique Morrow To: Huub van Helvoort , "Ong, Lyndon" CC: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work Thread-Index: AcdsaQ7bTatj4thcEduKxwANk8LkKg== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1063; t=1174557694; x=1175421694; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=mmorrow@cisco.com; z=From:=20Monique=20Morrow=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20ITU-T=20Q.14/15=20alignment=20with=20ITU-T=20SG13=20w ork |Sender:=20; bh=i5BLD7ealVAzanaGyPooHTVVrJTCy6Jdf949jpWVtnU=; b=p3pFQSyALFSx6rQ8N0OMDFoBeTMyO8p0W7BVtZQWIq/xXtoo90Jn5hSiH3JnrNIWMJscL74X gdljk4SdA+AiSkAdtbY3DQdFEFD6+EIBcBr0T+FbEr0elidcxuT5pNHw; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-2; header.From=mmorrow@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim2001 verified; ); My question was more specific to the OAM requirements for T-MPLS as presented by Lyndon in his liaison report Will these be different from those sourced in Q5/13? Monique On 22/3/07 5:20 am, "Huub van Helvoort" wrote: > Hello Lyndon, > > You wrote: > >> Monique had asked if the equipment specifications work in Q.14/15 in >> ITU-T on Ethernet-over-Transport and T-MPLS was in alignment with >> the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subjects. > > To avoid more confusion: > The equipment specifications are G.8021 for Transport Ethernet > and G.8121 for T-MPLS. Both are developed in Q9/15. > > Q14/15 is responsible for the management and control of that > system/equipment, i.e. G.EOT_mgmt and G.tmpls_mgmt > >> I received the >> following response from the Rapporteur for Q.14: >> >> The EoT and T-MPLS works in SG15 are in alignment with Q5/13, in >> particular, with Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS Mechanism) and Y.1731 (OAM >> functions and mechanisms for Ethernet based networks). > > Cheers, Huub. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:21:30 +0000 Message-ID: <46024A55.5070500@chello.nl> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:20:21 +0100 From: Huub van Helvoort User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Ong, Lyndon" CC: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Lyndon, You wrote: > Monique had asked if the equipment specifications work in Q.14/15 in > ITU-T on Ethernet-over-Transport and T-MPLS was in alignment with > the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subjects. To avoid more confusion: The equipment specifications are G.8021 for Transport Ethernet and G.8121 for T-MPLS. Both are developed in Q9/15. Q14/15 is responsible for the management and control of that system/equipment, i.e. G.EOT_mgmt and G.tmpls_mgmt > I received the > following response from the Rapporteur for Q.14: > > The EoT and T-MPLS works in SG15 are in alignment with Q5/13, in > particular, with Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS Mechanism) and Y.1731 (OAM > functions and mechanisms for Ethernet based networks). Cheers, Huub. -- ================================================================ http://www.van-helvoort.eu/ ================================================================ Always remember that you are unique...just like everyone else... Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:53:58 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.2.5.060620 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:53:08 -0400 Subject: Re: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work From: Monique Morrow To: "Ong, Lyndon" , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work Thread-Index: AcdsWsxMyPRDGXYxTWiGAgxCRAzQtgABLbFq Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3257383988_178552" DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2476; t=1174553593; x=1175417593; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=mmorrow@cisco.com; z=From:=20Monique=20Morrow=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20ITU-T=20Q.14/15=20alignment=20with=20ITU-T=20SG13=20w ork |Sender:=20; bh=7Gof8kjls3kfrysbhMNmRY0lyufIRxRa3JPGE4Q74Yg=; b=f9dtT20F7dj+upljCVa47mFDF4OZpS3n0rZsaGLHVdZTPNWYTjL3ZOfsyVwydvlf6d7uBd4+ DPbGSAZiFHTcJh/JMjROfp5UBgbIhqPMrsdkYMi+kUaUlfRilb7pu+yy; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-2; header.From=mmorrow@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim2001 verified; ); > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3257383988_178552 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thanks Lyndon! /m On 22/3/07 4:19 am, "Ong, Lyndon" wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Monique had asked if the equipment specifications work in Q.14/15 in ITU-T on > Ethernet-over-Transport > and T-MPLS was in alignment with the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subjects. > I received the following > response from the Rapporteur for Q.14: > > The EoT and T-MPLS works in SG15 are in alignment with Q5/13, in particular, > with Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS Mechanism) and Y.1731 (OAM functions and mechanisms > for Ethernet based networks). > > Cheers, > > L. Ong > --B_3257383988_178552 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work Thank= s Lyndon!

/m


On 22/3/07 4:19 am, "Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> wrote:<= BR>
Hi Folks,
Monique had asked if the equipment specifications= work in Q.14/15 in ITU-T on Ethernet-over-Transport
and T-MPLS was in alignment with the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subject= s.  I received the following
response from the Rapporteur for Q.14:
The EoT and T-MPLS works in= SG15 are in alignment with Q5/13, in particular, with Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS M= echanism) and Y.1731 (OAM functions and mechanisms for Ethernet based networ= ks).
Cheers,
L. Ong


 --B_3257383988_178552-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:23:06 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C76C5A.CD544131" Subject: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:19:23 -0400 Message-ID: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA0701546378@mdmxm02.ciena.com> Thread-Topic: ITU-T Q.14/15 alignment with ITU-T SG13 work thread-index: AcdsWsxMyPRDGXYxTWiGAgxCRAzQtg== From: "Ong, Lyndon" To: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76C5A.CD544131 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Folks, =20 Monique had asked if the equipment specifications work in Q.14/15 in ITU-T on Ethernet-over-Transport and T-MPLS was in alignment with the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subjects. I received the following response from the Rapporteur for Q.14: =20 The EoT and T-MPLS works in SG15 are in alignment with Q5/13, in particular, with Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS Mechanism) and Y.1731 (OAM functions and mechanisms for Ethernet based networks). =20 Cheers, =20 L. Ong ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76C5A.CD544131 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 Folks,
 
Monique had asked if=20 the equipment specifications work in Q.14/15 in ITU-T on=20 Ethernet-over-Transport
and = T-MPLS was in=20 alignment with the work in ITU-T SG13 on the same subjects.  I = received the=20 following
response from the=20 Rapporteur for Q.14:
 
The EoT and T-MPLS works in SG15 are in alignment with = Q5/13,=20 in = particular, with=20 Y.17TOM (T-MPLS OAS Mechanism) and Y.1731 (OAM functions and mechanisms = for=20 Ethernet based networks).
 
Cheers,
 
L.=20 Ong
------_=_NextPart_001_01C76C5A.CD544131-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 07:54:47 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 03:49:25 -0400 Message-ID: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07015461AB@mdmxm02.ciena.com> Thread-Topic: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses thread-index: AcdrXqzoDTPnbCTBS+mDOA+WbTrexwALghQg From: "Ong, Lyndon" To: , "Adrian Farrel" Cc: , , "JONES Jim D" Hi Folks, I agree with Dimitri regarding the ad hoc discussions on the VLAN ID, I think we are close to a working solution (albeit it does not handle the case of very large numbers of VLAN IDs due to the message size problem Dimitri mentions). Regarding the interworking "cookbook", it may help for people to know that this was specifically scoped to the G.7713.2 and RFC 3473 specifications and not beyond this. =20 Cheers, Lyndon=20 -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 7:06 PM To: Adrian Farrel Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses adrian o) VLAN I-D i don't think this is a Call functionality=20 "No information provided on UNI TSPEC expectations (e.g. granularity of C-VLAN within EVC) in Liaison" i think this has been clarified on this list if my record is correct "Any outcome of ad hoc discussions yesterday?" rsv is associated to the vc and there are two modes 1:1 and 1:N we can cover base cases as long as msg size doesn't exceed MTU size - the question wrt progress are 1) do we have a correct understanding of the problem 2) do we want to progress on the topic inline with MEF expectations 3) is the base mode acceptable until a more generic is proposed (or shall we propose a single solution covering all cases) o) the following is odd, in a sense OIF asks to comment but is ignoring what we have been developing since those where provided to eliminate interworking with ASON (shouldn't that be our first comment ?)=20 "Our comments are solicited Cookbook objectives seem unclear (ignores GMPLS work on UNI, ENNI, ASON)" o) you wrote "Can we help by describing how to map OIF UNI parameters to GMPLS signalling?" i don't understand the question, the former is a "profile" the latter a protocol - shouldn't be the other way around o) optical transport plane work - i don't clearly understand what's all about but to the question=20 "- No mention of GELS. Time to let them know?" answer is yes. the=20 point is that such exchange informative ? o) Send a complete list and ask for it to be included? yes o) * Recent liaison (just in) requests us to liaise=20 draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-04.txt "before it is published as an RFC" and by April 2nd=20 - I-D is past IETF last call. Is it too late? that's not the question, the point is WHY ? because the applicability I-D is not yet respined ? we should address this point by committing charter milestones here o) routing "Asks us to supply details of our reasoning in selecting OSPF loop prevention mechanisms rather than applying ISIS mechanisms to OSPF We could supply this reasoning, but to what purpose? We note that we previously asked if the ITU-T had any technical issues with our choice and received no answer." isn't the answer obvious ? "Asks for further explanation of why we declined to change "an Li may be advertised by only one Ri at any time" to "a TE link is only advertised by one Ri at a time."" i'd like to re-state that the RFC 4652 (in its draft version) maintained an open item on multiple Ri per Li - no answer, hence closed to re-open pls provide reasoning (interest argument is a consequence not a cause) "Restates that we should use "MUST" not "optional" in describing the inclusion of timeslot accounting information (section 4.2) This seems to be a misunderstanding of context New revision of I-D clarifies the text We can liaise back to thank them for prompting us to clarify" ok "Request liaison of any work on multi-layer networks We should do this especially for the MLN requirements and evaluation that are soon to have last call Very many of our I-Ds and some in PCE are applicable to multi-layer networks. Liaise them all?" at least those on control plane at for the layers that concern ITU meaning SDH & OTH, for the PCE ask to PCE, but what is their real concern ? "Set respond-by date to coincide with end of WG last call? Request explanation of how redistribution of information continues when a redistribution point fails Simply send an explanation?" done o) call i-d no, i think we're done note i observe that the list of discussion points is quite large most of those are non-issues we should ask for splitting real concerns from informational aspects thanks, -d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 20/03/2007 16:39 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" =20 To: cc:=20 Subject: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Hi, Would appreciate it if you looked at the various liaisons and correspondence at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm and the slides Deborah and I wrote at http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07mar/slides/ccamp-19.ppt Please comment on any aspect of any of the correspondence as Deborah and I=20 try to put together responses. Would be nice if your comments were on the CCAMP list rather than in private. Thanks, Adrian=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 02:08:50 +0000 To: "Adrian Farrel" Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 03:05:43 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 YWRyaWFuDQoNCm8pIFZMQU4gSS1EDQoNCmkgZG9uJ3QgdGhpbmsgdGhpcyBpcyBhIENhbGwgZnVu Y3Rpb25hbGl0eSANCg0KIk5vIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIHByb3ZpZGVkIG9uIFVOSSBUU1BFQyBleHBl Y3RhdGlvbnMgKGUuZy4gZ3JhbnVsYXJpdHkgb2YgDQpDLVZMQU4gd2l0aGluIEVWQykgaW4gTGlh aXNvbiINCg0KaSB0aGluayB0aGlzIGhhcyBiZWVuIGNsYXJpZmllZCBvbiB0aGlzIGxpc3QgaWYg bXkgcmVjb3JkIGlzIGNvcnJlY3QNCg0KIkFueSBvdXRjb21lIG9mIGFkIGhvYyBkaXNjdXNzaW9u cyB5ZXN0ZXJkYXk/Ig0KDQpyc3YgaXMgYXNzb2NpYXRlZCB0byB0aGUgdmMgYW5kIHRoZXJlIGFy ZSB0d28gbW9kZXMgMToxIA0KPHZjL3Nlc3Npb24sbGFiZWwvc2Vzc2lvbiBhdHRyLj4gYW5kIDE6 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comments about draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:30:44 +0100 To: zhangrenhai 18605 DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=510; t=1174411889; x=1175275889; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jvasseur@cisco.com; z=From:=20JP=20Vasseur=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20My=20comments=20about=20draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas -te-extension-01.txt |Sender:=20 |To:=20zhangrenhai=2018605=20; bh=d9pyAIUsn8ieL3ee5IIgqwq4l92xjQePrK1bj9DVVmo=; b=a39piHjWa67S7demJJv/9kXxdYHa0qYW0W2H8EvhmdmiTTlSB7mlINm45K+2qz2HF2STb4PE EWSrOvAwRH04r2XooorzG0ZQGy7y/G0Clojo+jgpDnjwCNCp2dvhB/wh; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=jvasseur@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); Thanks. JP. On Mar 20, 2007, at 5:25 PM, zhangrenhai 18605 wrote: > > Hi, JP > > Thanks a lot for your comments, we will fold this into the next > version of the draft. > > Best regards, > Zhang Renhai > >> Hi, >> >> Just to reiterate my comment, could you please clearly spell out >> in >> the document that the intention is *not* to flood any TE related >> information of any kind across domains but only the remote AS >> number >> and link type ? >> >> Thanks. >> >> JP. >> Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:33:46 +0000 Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 00:25:31 +0800 From: zhangrenhai 18605 Subject: Re:My comments about draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt To: JP Vasseur Cc: Mach Chen , ccamp@ops.ietf.org Message-id: <2e867162e88200.2e882002e86716@huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: zh-CN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline Hi, JP Thanks a lot for your comments, we will fold this into the next version of the draft. Best regards, Zhang Renhai > Hi, > > Just to reiterate my comment, could you please clearly spell out > in > the document that the intention is *not* to flood any TE related > information of any kind across domains but only the remote AS > number > and link type ? > > Thanks. > > JP. > Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:39:56 +0000 Message-ID: <00b401c76b05$edcfde20$ea138182@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Subject: Progressing the discussion on liaison responses Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:39:11 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Would appreciate it if you looked at the various liaisons and correspondence at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm and the slides Deborah and I wrote at http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07mar/slides/ccamp-19.ppt Please comment on any aspect of any of the correspondence as Deborah and I try to put together responses. Would be nice if your comments were on the CCAMP list rather than in private. Thanks, Adrian Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:37:31 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2134E46C-9EF8-44C8-97C4-7F7E2DA73307@cisco.com> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: JP Vasseur Subject: My comments about draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:34:21 +0100 To: Mach Chen , Zhang Renhai DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=253; t=1174404876; x=1175268876; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim4002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jvasseur@cisco.com; z=From:=20JP=20Vasseur=20 |Subject:=20My=20comments=20about=20draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-exte nsion-01.txt |Sender:=20; bh=LCjxVUttc0Zj/EBkl9C4Ove5R/81ZVfCsEqLUhrHTJU=; b=dbWLZmy/QBW4MfDqDtpqszcr0nKLWug4cMLncb4KFN3S373Fej8LagD/mGBcElgoE+DYBrHE ftncjiY+sGCZJEdDt65Yd7vXeix7YoGwG9TGqrZMbDd087OpSFRHlbm6; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4; header.From=jvasseur@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim4002 verified; ); Hi, Just to reiterate my comment, could you please clearly spell out in the document that the intention is *not* to flood any TE related information of any kind across domains but only the remote AS number and link type ? Thanks. JP. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:11:16 +0000 Message-ID: <047501c76a30$261f2be0$0400010a@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Subject: New Liaison Statement, "Liaison statement to ccamp regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS" Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:08:11 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, We have received a second liaison statement from Question 14 of Study Group 15 of the IETF. This can be seen at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm We are asked to respond by 2nd April 2007 > Title: Liaison statement to ccamp regarding work on calls and Vcat/LCAS > Submission Date: 2007-03-14 > URL of the IETF Web page: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=306 > Attachment(s): > text of liaison > (https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file407.doc) We understand that IETF ccamp is currently progressing towards RFC status: Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) RSVP-TE Signaling Extensions in support of Calls - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-rsvp-te-call-04.txt Section 2.1 of this draft states: “2.1 Applicability to ASON [RFC4139] details the requirements on GMPLS signaling to satisfy the ASON architecture described in [G.8080]. The mechanisms described in this document meet the requirements for Calls as described in Sections 4.2 and 4.3 of [RFC4139] and the additional Call-related requirements in Sections 4.4, 4.7, 5 and 6 of [RFC4139]. [ASON-APPL] describes the applicability of GMPLS protocols to the ASON architecture.†Since ITU-T SG 15 has responsibility for the ASON architecture, we would appreciate the opportunity to review this draft and provide our comments before it is published as an RFC. We would also appreciate a view from IETF ccamp on how this draft would be applied in the context of an ASON network, in particular how the ASON requirements are supported. Additionally, we observe with interest the progress on the draft: Operating Virtual Concatenation (VCAT) and the Link Capacity Adjustment Scheme (LCAS) with Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-01.txt This draft uses mechanisms defined by ITU-T SG 15 in Recommendations G.7041 and G.7042 and is also applicable to an ASON network. Therefore, we would appreciate having an opportunity to review and provide input on this draft from an architectural perspective before it is published as an RFC. An electronic copy of this liaison statement is available at: http://ties.itu.int/u/tsg15/sg15/xchange/wp3/q14/0702/wd/wd38r4_ls_ccamp.doc Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:11:08 +0000 Message-ID: <047401c76a30$25ef9060$0400010a@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Subject: New Liaison Statement, "Liaison statement to ccamp responding to ccamp liaison of 21 February 2007" Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:04:46 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, We have received the following liaison from Question 14 of Study Group 15 of the ITU-T. A response is requested by 6th April 2007. As usual, you can find the details at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Thanks, Adrian > Title: Liaison statement to ccamp responding to ccamp liaison of 21 > February 2007 > Submission Date: 2007-03-14 > URL of the IETF Web page: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=305 > Attachment(s): > text of liaison > (https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file406.doc) Thank you for your response to our previous liaison statement on the current ASON work in ccamp. With respect to the current liaison statement we have the following comments: On the selection of a loop prevention mechanism the liaison statement indicates that “the choice was made after careful evaluation in cooperation with IETF's OSPF Working Group.†We would appreciate further details of these considerations to allow us to fully understand the thought going into this decision and evaluate any impacts on the transport network. In the context of an n:1or m:n relationship between Routing Controllers (RCs) and Transport Nodes the liaison states “we have yet to hear from anyone who wishes to implement or deploy in this ratioâ€. While there may have not been direct input from CCAMP participants on this, the ITU-T liaison clearly expressed interest in these scenarios on the part of ITU-T participants. We would appreciate understanding further the concerns in IETF ccamp with the wording change that was proposed in our last liaison to replace “Li†with “TE Link†in section 5.1. Please note that in our previous liaison that the abbreviation SC refers to Signalling Controller (e.g. a RSVP instance). Please note that the ASON terms and abbreviations are defined in ITU-T Recommendation G.8081 (available for free download from the ITU-T web site). Regarding the use of “optional†in the draft for timeslot accounting, we believe “MUST†to be more appropriate to meet the requirements defined in G.7715.1, whereas “optional†implies that ASON requirements can be met without providing this level of accounting detail. We agree that WDM systems do not have timeslots. ASON is not specific to TDM networks, it may be applied to any network technology that can be modelled using G.805. To achieve this ASON manages link connections. Time slots and wavelengths are examples of link connections. Therefore, routing announcements for ASON must contain link connection accounting information. For the Local TE Router ID, we believe that “SHOULD only be included…if the Router_ID is advertising on behalf of more than one TE_Router_ID †is overly constrained, and “MUST be included†is necessary since identifier separation is an ASON requirement. This allows for the case of multiple Li per Ri (a common case for ASON). This also allows separation of the identifiers used in the information being distributed from the identifiers used by the protocol supporting the distribution. We do not require inter-operability with legacy OSPF routers in an ASON context. The liaison states “Please keep us informed as you evolve ASON to include multi-layer networks and any related GMPLS protocol requirements.†It should be noted that ITU-T work has been addressing multi-layer networks for ASON for some time. The results of this multi-layer work are reflected in G.7715.1 (2004) section 9.5, G.8080 amendment 2 (2005) sections 6.5 and 6.6, with further detail in G.8080 version 2 (2006) sections 6.5, 6.6 and 8.5 (Available for free download from the ITU-T web site). Previous ITU-T liaison statements have shared the drafts in progress and the final results. We request that you liaise any work that you have under way on multi-layer networks. The liaison states: “With regard to "speedy recovery", can you clarify your concern on LS MAX Age and the implications for recovery? Are you saying that your concern is the continued behavior of upward dissemination of routing information in the event that the selected RC performing the dissemination fails?â€. Our expectation is that the parent/child redistribution of information will be continuous even when a redistribution point has failed. Could you explain how the mechanism that has been proposed behaves under this condition. Regarding call and connection separation the liaison states: “We understand that ASON Calls may be implemented through full call/connection separation (as in G.7713.3) or call/connection 'piggybacking' as in G.7713.2. Please confirm that our interpretation of G.8080 and G.7713 is correct.†ASON requires full logical separation of the call and connection which may be implemented with separate or piggybacked call and connection signalling. ITU-T SG 15 has been relying on a collaborative relationship with IETF ccamp to provide the protocol support for ASON. This collaborative work should allow the industry to take advantage of the different expertise in each of the Standards Development Organizations. Q.14/15 has not developed protocol specific Recommendations for ASON since 2003, based on an expected collaborative technical relationship, in which IETF ccamp would provide protocol solutions that fully meet the ITU-T ASON requirements. However, the effectiveness of this SDO liaison relationship could be improved. We observe that IETF ccamp has responded to some of the technical issues raised by suggesting that the ITU-T participants should provide input directly, to the work in ccamp. We agree that having participants involved in both the ITU-T and IETF improves the communication process. We would like to confirm that this individual participation is not being suggested as a substitute for the liaison relationship. A liaison statement or ITU-T Recommendation represents the consensus of the members of the ITU-T. An individual participating in the work of ccamp is not authorized to represent or negotiate on behalf of the ITU-T. One particular area for improvement of the liaison relationship is communicating the disposition of ITU-T comments related to the interpretation of ASON requirements. For example comments provided on, draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-reqts-02 (now RFC 4258) and draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing eval-00 (now RFC 4652) were not included in the published RFC and the rational for this decision has not been communicated. ITU-T SG15 continues to be interested in providing clarification or validation of IETF ccamp interpretation of the ASON requirements and therefore continues to request that in future any documents under development that are potentially applicable to ASON be liaised so that ITU-T can validate the documents against the ASON requirements. We look forward to receiving your response and hope that we can continue to build a cooperative and productive relationship between ccamp and SG 15. An electronic copy of this liaison statement is available at: http://ties.itu.int/u/tsg15/sg15/xchange/wp3/q14/0702/wd/rd29r6_ls_ccamp.doc Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 01:31:26 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Next steps for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:28:42 -0400 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Next steps for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... thread-index: AcdhGKiQbRcfK8vLRvqqzdcmiwKIGQIl0Sdg From: "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" To: Cc: "Adrian Farrel" , "Anca Zamfir \(ancaz\)" , , "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Jean Philippe Vasseur \(jvasseur\)" , DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=4491; t=1174267731; x=1175131731; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=zali@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Zafar=20Ali=20\(zali\)=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20Next=20steps=20for=20draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-s hutdown-01.txt.... |Sender:=20 |To:=20; bh=+Ar5Tpzogh8pf8e5GdXOrJcoN6VwmgNGnkzzHnhIKYw=; b=Id2sRJbR/3u8c7k3M69yD+Rdy6vG+hWvhmbnSE7ApK2AeKCD8oWPTXBxHp4L77Y6ctnSyOve 7Y5Uxei1R3OxETsPMhr3bQy6cC705d4JFbL+blApCoJU735dso1vEkMK; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=zali@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); Dear Dimitri-=20 Thanks for your comments and sorry for the delay in replying. Please see in-line.=20 Thanks Regards... Zafar =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be=20 > [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 7:28 PM > To: Zafar Ali (zali) > Cc: Adrian Farrel; Anca Zamfir (ancaz); ccamp@ops.ietf.org;=20 > Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; Jean Philippe Vasseur (jvasseur);=20 > owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Re: Next steps for=20 > draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... >=20 > zafar - >=20 > o) would it be possible to sum'up changes you have been=20 > provided since so far ? >=20 Dimitri-=20 The delta was to mainly addresses comments received. The major comments were (quoting from respective email):=20 "- not sure to understand why the PathErr/Notify can be processed by the head-end only (what about segment recovery and stitching case) - why only=20 MBB is possible upon reception (pls use E2E recovery/Segment recovery=20 capabilities as you address GMPLS networks)". How this comment is addressed: Re: segment recovery and stitching case, definition of the node that can perform GS procedure has been extended to include Ingress LSR of an S-LSP. See enclosed slides for details. Re: why only MBB is possible upon reception.=20 Text in the new version is modified such that it allows the following-=20 - Graceful shutdown may be exercised using make-before-break or FRR/ segment recovery procedure.=20 - When PLR/ branch node receive a Path Error with Graceful Shutdown indication,=20 o It MUST forward the Path Error to the Ingress node. O Based on a local decision, PLR/ branch node MAY trigger FRR/ segment recovery. "- in case shutdown of a protected component link (of a bundle) is=20 initiated why can't link protection be used ?" How this comment is addressed: Based on a local decision, PLR/ branch node MAY trigger FRR/ segment recovery to recover from failure of a component link.=20 "- compared to path-reopt, error description is identical for the TE link=20 case which leads to the following point - if errors code/value are the=20 same how to distinguish them" This ID inherits the Ingress behavior from RFC 4736, which says, "Upon receiving an RSVP PERR message with Error code 25 and Error sub- code 7 (Local link maintenance required) or 8 (Local node maintenance required), the Head-end LSR SHOULD perform a TE LSP reoptimization".=20 This drafts extends the handling of this error code/ sub-code at PLR/ branch node (which includes the case where ingress node is PLR/ branch node). IMO no need for adding a new perr subcode. =20 > o) would it be possible to clarify the following statement >=20 > "- Graceful shutdown mechanisms are required to address TE LSPs=20 > spanning multiple domains, as well as intra domain TE LSPs. " >=20 > afaik you don't shutdown LSPs but Links - right ? This is correct. We will change the wording to make it clear.=20 >=20 > thanks, > -d. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" > Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > 02/03/2007 00:41 > =20 > To: "Adrian Farrel" ,=20 > "Brungard, Deborah=20 > A, ALABS" , Dimitri=20 > PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL > cc: , "Jean Philippe Vasseur=20 > \(jvasseur\)"=20 > , "Anca Zamfir \(ancaz\)" > Subject: Next steps for=20 > draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... >=20 >=20 > Hi Adrian, Deborah, Dimitri, and campers-=20 > =20 > As we mentioned at the last IETF meeting,=20 > http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06nov/slides/ccamp-17/sld1.ht > m, we have addressed all outstanding comments, except the=20 > following comment from Dimitri, related to this ID. Should=20 > you have any further comment, please share.=20 > =20 > The only remaining comment that is not closed is "should this=20 > ID be informational or standard track". IMO the ID defines a=20 > new error-subcode and some specific behavior, and should be=20 > standard track. Can you please comment on this.=20 > =20 > The ID has been stable for quite some time and following the=20 > closure of the above, we would like to request last call.=20 > =20 > Thanks > =20 > Regards... Zafar =20 >=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:19:19 +0000 From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce Cc: Internet Architecture Board , RFC Editor , ccamp mailing list , ccamp chair Subject: Protocol Action: 'Crankback Signaling Extensions for MPLS and GMPLS RSVP-TE' to Proposed Standard Message-Id: Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 05:16:23 -0400 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Crankback Signaling Extensions for MPLS and GMPLS RSVP-TE ' as a Proposed Standard This document is the product of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Ross Callon and Bill Fenner. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-crankback-06.txt Technical Summary In a distributed, constraint-based routing environment, the information used to compute a path may be out of date. This means that Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Traffic Engineered (TE) Label Switched Path (LSP) setup requests may be blocked by links or nodes without sufficient resources. Crankback is a scheme whereby setup failure information is returned from the point of failure to allow new setup attempts to be made avoiding the blocked resources. Crankback can also be applied to LSP recovery to indicate the location of the failed link or node. This document specifies crankback signaling extensions for use in MPLS signaling using RSVP-TE as defined in "RSVP-TE: Extensions to RSVP for LSP Tunnels", RFC3209, and GMPLS signaling as defined in "Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Signaling Functional Description", RFC3473. These extensions mean that the LSP setup request can be retried on an alternate path that detours around blocked links or nodes. Working Group Summary No dissent. There was some comment that the document contains too many sub-TLVs for conveying crankback information , but for each individual TLV the consensus was to retain it (see PROTO writeup in comments in ID tracker). Protocol Quality Ross Callon reviewed this for the IESG. The spec has been updated in response to comments from the AD (Ross) as well as Security Directorate comments. The document was also liaisoned and reviewed by ITU-T's SG15. Note to RFC Editor There are a few typos, particularly in documents referenced, that need to be corrected. The set of corrections (provided by Adrian Farrel): ==== Section 2.1 s/[RC3473]/[RFC3473]/ === Section 4.5, point 4) s/[RFC4373]/[RFC3473]/ === Section 13 DELETE [G8080] ITU-T Recommendation G.808/Y.1304, Architecture for the Automatically Switched Optical Network (ASON), November 2001. For information on the availability of this document, please see http://www.itu.int. === Section 13 ADD [RFC4201] Kompella, K., Rekhter, Y., and Berger, L. "Link Bundling in MPLS Traffic Engineering (TE)", RFC 4201, October 2005. === Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:27:18 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <12c43ba1e2f27c8872cc708ab1000dbf@cn.kddilabs.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org From: OGAKI Kenichi Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-otani-ccamp-gmpls-cspf-constraints-05.txt Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:24:28 +0900 Hello All, Please find the new revision (05) of "Considering Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching Traffic Engineering Attributes During Path Computation". http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-otani-ccamp-gmpls-cspf- constraints-05.txt The document provides guidelines for the consideration of Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Traffic-Engineering (TE) attributes for computation of routes for Label Switched Paths (LSPs) in a GMPLS network. We have made a number of changes to make the document clearer and added some new sections including security. We would welcome your feedback and thoughts. Regards, Tomo, Kenichi, & Dan Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:19:22 +0000 Message-ID: <008b01c76757$ff6e68b0$0400010a@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Subject: Don't forget to send me your slides! Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:12:48 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, It is really helpful to everyone and especially the non-native English speakers if we can get the slides posted before the meeting, so don't forget to send them to us. Thanks, Adrian and Deborah Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:24:08 +0000 From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce Cc: Internet Architecture Board , RFC Editor , ccamp mailing list , ccamp chair Subject: Protocol Action: 'Routing extensions for discovery of Multiprotocol (MPLS) Label Switch Router (LSR) Traffic Engineering (TE) mesh membership' to Proposed Standard Message-Id: Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:23:10 -0400 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Routing extensions for discovery of Multiprotocol (MPLS) Label Switch Router (LSR) Traffic Engineering (TE) mesh membership ' as a Proposed Standard This document is the product of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Ross Callon and Bill Fenner. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-automesh-04.txt Technical Summary The set up of a full mesh of Multi-Protocol Label Switching (MPLS) Traffic Engineering (TE) Label Switched Paths (LSP) among a set of Label Switch Routers (LSR) is a common deployment scenario of MPLS Traffic Engineering either for bandwidth optimization, bandwidth guarantees or fast rerouting with MPLS Fast Reroute. Such deployment may require the configuration of potentially a large number of TE LSPs (on the order of the square of the number LSRs). This document specifies Interior Gateway Protocol (IGP) routing extensions for Intermediate System-to-Intermediate System (IS-IS) and Open Shortest Path First (OSPF) so as to provide an automatic discovery of the set of LSRs members of a mesh in order to automate the creation of such mesh of TE LSPs. Working Group Summary No dissent reported. There has been some discussion of the wisdom of putting this information in an IGP (rather than BGP or somewhere else) within the routing directorate and a few other relevant folks (eg, chairs of IS-IS and/or OSPF WGs). The consensus is clearly to go ahead with this draft as specified. Based on this discussion, appropriate text was added to the document that discusses this issue briefly. The document was last called in the IS-IS and OSPF working groups in addition to the CCAMP WG. Protocol Quality Ross Callon has reviewed this for the IESG. According to the PROTO writeup there are implementations and at least some deployment. IANA Note The -03 and -04 versions of the draft contains an updated IANA considerations section which is intended to respond to the IANA questions entered into the tracker on Sept 27, 2006. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:52:14 +0000 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt Message-Id: Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:50:02 -0400 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : OSPFv2 Routing Protocols Extensions for ASON Routing Author(s) : D. Papadimitriou Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt Pages : 0 Date : 2007-3-12 The Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) suite of protocols has been defined to control different switching technologies as well as different applications. These include support for requesting TDM connections including SONET/SDH and Optical Transport Networks (OTNs). This document provides the extensions of the OSPFv2 Link State Routing Protocol to meet the routing requirements for an Automatically Switched Optical Network (ASON) as defined by ITU-T. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. 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Let's continue the discussion in Prague. Hoefully, we will also hear what the authors of RFC3630 have to say. See you soon, Igor Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor the first sentence is the disconnect, per 3630 "The Link Type and Link ID sub-TLVs are mandatory, i.e., must appear exactly once." " The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor." you wrote "TE links must be uniqely identifed either as numbered or unnumbered (combination of TERtrID and LinkID)." this is totally incorrect, there is a local/remote sub-TLV defined for numbered TE links in fact what the present document does is to define a sub-TLV to allow identification of unnumbered TE links (associated to the TE router ID rather than the Router ID) thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin 10/03/2007 14:10 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ong, Lyndon" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Dimitri, But who said that linkID must be unique per routerID? Of course, not. It must be unique per TE Router ID. The fact that the same RC manages several TE RTRs does not change a thing. The paths are computed on the network TE graph, built of vertices (TE RTRs) interconnected by edges (TE links). TE links must be uniqely identifed either as numbered or unnumbered (combination of TERtrID and LinkID). How the links are advertised - by separate RCs, the same RC or via no RC (statically configured) - is of no importance. Igor Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor not an issue of TE router ID uniqueness, without this additional sub-TLV, an unnumbered local id may not be unique per router_id, hence the addition of this sub-TLV (TE Router ID being unique per router_id) -d Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 22:36 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ong, Lyndon" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Dimitri, I don't see how we can manage the situation where TENodeIds are not unique. At the end of the day we must process EROs/RROs that are build of TENodeID/TELinkID pairs. If TELinkID has node-scope and TENodeID is not unique, how then we can identify the specified link? So what do you suggest we put in each of these two fields? Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor but it doesn't solve the issue (and introduces different setting and processing of the link id value from rfc 3630) indeed, in ASON RC can be associated to multiple "nodes", each of these nodes can have overlapping id spaces (to identify the "links") for that reason the solution is that each TE link (top level) TLV has a new sub-TLV that associates the local and remote "node id" (the former and latter takes the TE Router ID as value) it is the substance of what i have been pointing to you in my initial e-mail (see Section 5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7: "the routing protocol MUST be able to disambiguate the advertised TE links so that they can be associated with the correct TE Router ID.") -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 20:29 To: "Ong, Lyndon" , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Lyndon, Let me try to explain my point. Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple TE routers. Solution 1 (suggested in the draft): Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair. In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really. Solution 2 (mine) The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote end of the advertised TE link – remote TE Router ID. Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to answer is: Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses? The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt. For example, if the network is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will contain path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned path.. If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs should be advertised within Router Address TLV Hope that this helps. Igor "Ong, Lyndon" wrote: Hi Dimitri, That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf igor the drafts says "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the remote RC..." in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point - concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ? thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 16:05 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node. Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: " 2.4.1. Router Address TLV The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is the TE Router ID. The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID of the remote TE node. The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be proposed in your draft ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no real difference) IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I donââ'‰"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isnââ'‰"¢t this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: ââ'"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.ââ'¬Â In G.8080 I read: ââ'".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬Â Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. --0-611198405-1173561983=:91906 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri,

I probably do not make myself clear, but you don't seem to see what I am saying. Let's continue the discussion in Prague. Hoefully, we will also hear what the authors of RFC3630 have to say.

See you soon,
Igor

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor

the first sentence is the disconnect, per 3630

"The Link Type and Link ID sub-TLVs are mandatory, i.e., must appear
exactly once."

" The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For
point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor."


you wrote

"TE links must be uniqely identifed either as numbered or unnumbered
(combination of TERtrID and LinkID)."

this is totally incorrect, there is a local/remote sub-TLV defined for
numbered TE links

in fact what the present document does is to define a sub-TLV to allow
identification of unnumbered TE links (associated to the TE router ID
rather than the Router ID)


thanks,
-d.







Igor Bryskin
10/03/2007 14:10

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"
, "Ong, Lyndon" ,
owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Two questions on
draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf


Dimitri,

But who said that linkID must be unique per routerID? Of course, not. It
must be unique per TE Router ID. The fact that the same RC manages several
TE RTRs does not change a thing. The paths are computed on the network TE
graph, built of vertices (TE RTRs) interconnected by edges (TE links). TE
links must be uniqely identifed either as numbered or unnumbered
(combination of TERtrID and LinkID). How the links are advertised - by
separate RCs, the same RC or via no RC (statically configured) - is of no
importance.

Igor

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor

not an issue of TE router ID uniqueness, without this additional sub-TLV,
an unnumbered local id may not be unique per router_id, hence the addition

of this sub-TLV (TE Router ID being unique per router_id)

-d





Igor Bryskin
09/03/2007 22:36

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"
, "Ong, Lyndon" ,
owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Two questions on
draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf


Dimitri,

I don't see how we can manage the situation where TENodeIds are not
unique. At the end of the day we must process EROs/RROs that are build
of TENodeID/TELinkID pairs. If TELinkID has node-scope and TENodeID is not

unique, how then we can identify the specified link? So what do you
suggest we put in each of these two fields?

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor

but it doesn't solve the issue (and introduces different setting and
processing of the link id value from rfc 3630) indeed, in ASON RC can be
associated to multiple "nodes", each of these nodes can have overlapping
id spaces (to identify the "links")

for that reason the solution is that each TE link (top level) TLV has a
new sub-TLV that associates the local and remote "node id" (the former and


latter takes the TE Router ID as value)

it is the substance of what i have been pointing to you in my initial
e-mail (see Section 5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7: "the routing
protocol MUST be able to disambiguate the advertised TE links so that they


can be associated with the correct TE Router ID.")

-d.







Igor Bryskin
Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
09/03/2007 20:29

To: "Ong, Lyndon" , Dimitri
PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"
, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Two questions on
draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf


Lyndon,

Let me try to explain my point.

Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the
relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes


or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple


TE routers.

Solution 1 (suggested in the draft):

Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair.


In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really.

Solution 2 (mine)

The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs
controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE
Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there
is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the
function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote
end of the advertised TE link – remote TE Router ID.

Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to


answer is:

Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses?

The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt.
For example, if the network
is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will
contain
path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable
solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned
path..
If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs
should be advertised within Router Address TLV
Hope that this helps.

Igor




"Ong, Lyndon" wrote:
Hi Dimitri,

That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this.

Cheers,

Lyndon

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf


Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM
To: Igor Bryskin
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS;
owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf

igor

the drafts says

"Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e.



Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly
once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630].



"

which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the
remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is
associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the


remote RC..."
in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not
apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point -

concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple


associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ?

thanks,
-d.





Igor Bryskin
Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
09/03/2007 16:05

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,

> Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID?

no

> LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node,

no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case
the remote RC is associate to n "nodes"

IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the
RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently.

In RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.5.2. Link ID



The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For

point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor.

"

Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID

(identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the
neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end
of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not
advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node.

Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.4.1. Router Address TLV

The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the
advertising router that is always reachable if there is any
connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback
address". The key attribute is that the address does not become
unusable if an
interface is down. In other protocols, this is known
as the "router ID"

I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is
advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to
advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is
the TE Router ID.

The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID



of the remote TE node.

The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs
supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be
proposed in your draft

ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no




real difference)

IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I
am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to
support G.8080

Igor

pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing
your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
09/03/2007 00:03

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri, no, it does not help.

You didn't answer the first question, which is:

Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the
difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain




why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router
may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly
identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of
Remote TE Router ID is not obvious

BTW, You didn't answer the second question either.

Igor

PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding
to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view
it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece
from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying
to make.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor


pls use version (or 03
when available to make comments)

in that version you will see in Section 5.2

" Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link
(i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST
appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as
defined in [RFC3630]. "

now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of





par.5.2
but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
08/03/2007 22:11

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,
I have a couple questions wrt the
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.
In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising
local and remote TE Router ID:

0 1 2 3
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| 17 | Length |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Local TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Remote TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE
Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te
Router ID?
Isnââ'¬â"¢t
this is
the same
information
that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?
In 6. you write:

ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by
links.
The limit of the subdivision results in
a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single
link.ââ'¬ÂÂÂÂ

In G.8080 I read:
ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of
subnetworks, the
SNPP
links

that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP
links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller
routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision
results in a routing area that contains ]one
subnetwork.ââ'¬ÂÂÂÂ

Why is the discrepancy?

Thanks,
Igor


[
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in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.



Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.



Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.


8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.


Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.


TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. --0-611198405-1173561983=:91906-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:44:44 +0000 To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ong, Lyndon" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 14:44:01 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 aWdvciANCg0KdGhlIGZpcnN0IHNlbnRlbmNlIGlzIHRoZSBkaXNjb25uZWN0LCBwZXIgMzYzMCAN Cg0KIlRoZSBMaW5rIFR5cGUgYW5kIExpbmsgSUQgc3ViLVRMVnMgYXJlIG1hbmRhdG9yeSwgaS5l LiwgbXVzdCBhcHBlYXIgDQpleGFjdGx5IG9uY2UuIg0KDQoiIFRoZSBMaW5rIElEIHN1Yi1UTFYg aWRlbnRpZmllcyB0aGUgb3RoZXIgZW5kIG9mIHRoZSBsaW5rLiAgRm9yDQogIHBvaW50LXRvLXBv aW50IGxpbmtzLCB0aGlzIGlzIHRoZSBSb3V0ZXIgSUQgb2YgdGhlIG5laWdoYm9yLiINCg0KDQp5 b3Ugd3JvdGUNCg0KIlRFIGxpbmtzIG11c3QgYmUgdW5pcWVseSBpZGVudGlmZWQgZWl0aGVyIGFz 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c3RpbmF0aW9ucyBvbiBZYWhvbyEgVHJhdmVsIHRvIGZpbmQgeW91ciBmaXQuDQoNCg0KDQpTdWNr ZXItcHVuY2ggc3BhbSB3aXRoIGF3YXJkLXdpbm5pbmcgcHJvdGVjdGlvbi4NClRyeSB0aGUgZnJl ZSBZYWhvbyEgTWFpbCBCZXRhLg0KDQoNCg0KR2V0IHlvdXIgb3duIHdlYiBhZGRyZXNzLg0KSGF2 ZSBhIEhVR0UgeWVhciB0aHJvdWdoIFlhaG9vISBTbWFsbCBCdXNpbmVzcy4NCg0KDQo4OjAwPyA4 OjI1PyA4OjQwPyBGaW5kIGEgZmxpY2sgaW4gbm8gdGltZQ0Kd2l0aCB0aGVZYWhvbyEgU2VhcmNo IG1vdmllIHNob3d0aW1lIHNob3J0Y3V0Lg0KDQoNCiBEb24ndCBnZXQgc29ha2VkLiBUYWtlIGEg cXVpY2sgcGVlayBhdCB0aGUgZm9yZWNhc3QgDQp3aXRoIHRoZVlhaG9vISBTZWFyY2ggd2VhdGhl ciBzaG9ydGN1dC4NCg0K Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:13:09 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=OGGbQJpfmJg1bRGLPgjH0kSqw9kpguwlwq4NN1dM3VcSl/tFHId/abk5QUBEfHKdQu82Jo0P9ym2Y/bG1YCwg+FTyg/N3uk5UwZtdemmgVQ+uwo1uEYP8UPwD//AF2lS8TWfC+rEa99cZDOmw6ObCLvm/wWdqSNOoa1oRWzFik0= ; Message-ID: <20070310131046.30815.qmail@web36804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:10:45 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ong, Lyndon" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-914139335-1173532245=:30300" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-914139335-1173532245=:30300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, But who said that linkID must be unique per routerID? Of course, not. It must be unique per TE Router ID. The fact that the same RC manages several TE RTRs does not change a thing. The paths are computed on the network TE graph, built of vertices (TE RTRs) interconnected by edges (TE links). TE links must be uniqely identifed either as numbered or unnumbered (combination of TERtrID and LinkID). How the links are advertised - by separate RCs, the same RC or via no RC (statically configured) - is of no importance. Igor Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor not an issue of TE router ID uniqueness, without this additional sub-TLV, an unnumbered local id may not be unique per router_id, hence the addition of this sub-TLV (TE Router ID being unique per router_id) -d Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 22:36 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ong, Lyndon" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Dimitri, I don't see how we can manage the situation where TENodeIds are not unique. At the end of the day we must process EROs/RROs that are build of TENodeID/TELinkID pairs. If TELinkID has node-scope and TENodeID is not unique, how then we can identify the specified link? So what do you suggest we put in each of these two fields? Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor but it doesn't solve the issue (and introduces different setting and processing of the link id value from rfc 3630) indeed, in ASON RC can be associated to multiple "nodes", each of these nodes can have overlapping id spaces (to identify the "links") for that reason the solution is that each TE link (top level) TLV has a new sub-TLV that associates the local and remote "node id" (the former and latter takes the TE Router ID as value) it is the substance of what i have been pointing to you in my initial e-mail (see Section 5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7: "the routing protocol MUST be able to disambiguate the advertised TE links so that they can be associated with the correct TE Router ID.") -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 20:29 To: "Ong, Lyndon" , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Lyndon, Let me try to explain my point. Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple TE routers. Solution 1 (suggested in the draft): Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair. In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really. Solution 2 (mine) The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote end of the advertised TE link – remote TE Router ID. Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to answer is: Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses? The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt. For example, if the network is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will contain path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned path.. If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs should be advertised within Router Address TLV Hope that this helps. Igor "Ong, Lyndon" wrote: Hi Dimitri, That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf igor the drafts says "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the remote RC..." in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point - concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ? thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 16:05 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node. Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: " 2.4.1. Router Address TLV The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is the TE Router ID. The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID of the remote TE node. The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be proposed in your draft ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no real difference) IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isnââ'¬â"¢t this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.ââ'¬Â In G.8080 I read: ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬Â Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. --0-914139335-1173532245=:30300 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri,

But who said that linkID must be unique per routerID? Of course, not. It must be unique per TE Router ID. The fact that the same RC manages several TE RTRs does not change a thing. The paths are computed on the network TE graph, built of vertices (TE RTRs) interconnected by edges (TE links). TE links must be uniqely identifed either as numbered or unnumbered (combination of TERtrID and LinkID). How the links are advertised - by separate RCs, the same RC or via no RC (statically configured) - is of no importance.

Igor

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor

not an issue of TE router ID uniqueness, without this additional sub-TLV,
an unnumbered local id may not be unique per router_id, hence the addition
of this sub-TLV (TE Router ID being unique per router_id)

-d





Igor Bryskin
09/03/2007 22:36

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"
, "Ong, Lyndon" ,
owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Two questions on
draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf


Dimitri,

I don't see how we can manage the situation where TENodeIds are not
unique. At the end of the day we must process EROs/RROs that are build
of TENodeID/TELinkID pairs. If TELinkID has node-scope and TENodeID is not
unique, how then we can identify the specified link? So what do you
suggest we put in each of these two fields?

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor

but it doesn't solve the issue (and introduces different setting and
processing of the link id value from rfc 3630) indeed, in ASON RC can be
associated to multiple "nodes", each of these nodes can have overlapping
id spaces (to identify the "links")

for that reason the solution is that each TE link (top level) TLV has a
new sub-TLV that associates the local and remote "node id" (the former and

latter takes the TE Router ID as value)

it is the substance of what i have been pointing to you in my initial
e-mail (see Section 5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7: "the routing
protocol MUST be able to disambiguate the advertised TE links so that they

can be associated with the correct TE Router ID.")

-d.







Igor Bryskin
Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
09/03/2007 20:29

To: "Ong, Lyndon" , Dimitri
PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"
, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Two questions on
draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf


Lyndon,

Let me try to explain my point.

Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the
relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes

or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple

TE routers.

Solution 1 (suggested in the draft):

Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair.

In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really.

Solution 2 (mine)

The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs
controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE
Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there
is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the
function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote
end of the advertised TE link – remote TE Router ID.

Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to

answer is:

Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses?

The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt.
For example, if the network
is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will
contain
path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable
solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned
path..
If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs
should be advertised within Router Address TLV
Hope that this helps.

Igor




"Ong, Lyndon" wrote:
Hi Dimitri,

That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this.

Cheers,

Lyndon

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf

Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM
To: Igor Bryskin
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS;
owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf

igor

the drafts says

"Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e.


Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly
once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630].


"

which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the
remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is
associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the

remote RC..."
in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not
apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point -

concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple

associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ?

thanks,
-d.





Igor Bryskin
Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
09/03/2007 16:05

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,

> Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID?

no

> LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node,

no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case
the remote RC is associate to n "nodes"

IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the
RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently.

In RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.5.2. Link ID



The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For

point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor.

"

Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID

(identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the
neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end
of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not
advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node.

Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.4.1. Router Address TLV

The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the
advertising router that is always reachable if there is any
connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback
address". The key attribute is that the address does not become
unusable if an
interface is down. In other protocols, this is known
as the "router ID"

I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is
advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to
advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is
the TE Router ID.

The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID


of the remote TE node.

The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs
supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be
proposed in your draft

ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no



real difference)

IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I
am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to
support G.8080

Igor

pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing
your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
09/03/2007 00:03

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri, no, it does not help.

You didn't answer the first question, which is:

Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the
difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain



why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router
may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly
identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of
Remote TE Router ID is not obvious

BTW, You didn't answer the second question either.

Igor

PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding
to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view
it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece
from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying
to make.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor


pls use version (or 03
when available to make comments)

in that version you will see in Section 5.2

" Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link
(i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST
appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as
defined in [RFC3630]. "

now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of




par.5.2
but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
08/03/2007 22:11

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,
I have a couple questions wrt the
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.
In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising
local and remote TE Router ID:

0 1 2 3
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| 17 | Length |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Local TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Remote TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE
Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID?
Isnââ'¬â"¢t
this is
the same
information
that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?
In 6. you write:

ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links.
The limit of the subdivision results in
a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single
link.ââ'¬ÂÂÂ

In G.8080 I read:
ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the
SNPP
links

that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP
links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller
routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision
results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬ÂÂÂ

Why is the discrepancy?

Thanks,
Igor


[
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in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.



Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
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Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.


8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
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Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. --0-914139335-1173532245=:30300-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 02:12:07 +0000 To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ong, Lyndon" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 03:08:44 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 aWdvcg0KDQpub3QgYW4gaXNzdWUgb2YgVEUgcm91dGVyIElEIHVuaXF1ZW5lc3MsIHdpdGhvdXQg dGhpcyBhZGRpdGlvbmFsIHN1Yi1UTFYsIA0KYW4gdW5udW1iZXJlZCBsb2NhbCBpZCBtYXkgbm90 IGJlIHVuaXF1ZSBwZXIgcm91dGVyX2lkLCBoZW5jZSB0aGUgYWRkaXRpb24gDQpvZiB0aGlzIHN1 Yi1UTFYgKFRFIFJvdXRlciBJRCBiZWluZyB1bmlxdWUgcGVyIHJvdXRlcl9pZCkgDQoNCi1kDQoN Cg0KDQoNCg0KSWdvciBCcnlza2luIDxpX2JyeXNraW5AeWFob28uY29tPg0KMDkvMDMvMjAwNyAy MjozNg0KIA0KICAgICAgICBUbzogICAgIERpbWl0cmkgUEFQQURJTUlUUklPVS9CRS9BTENBVEVM 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dXQuDQoNCg== Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 21:37:50 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=kZRQHi11Gpso93OkfkLA7HWigvJQks6KMUA+AJ6BiShBlPCytrjEowax+S51hSy+n0jv6VJAIV4TcGZija5K6h7SZx5o0r5s09LjtJxC9IKGAfLD7Z/8M7goLnZyX3RVY22TVnJXD1bR+5IhUZ9nmD/xdnHpgiIUbLwXG/I3pkI=; Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:36:27 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ong, Lyndon" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1698436596-1173476187=:26675" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <587929.26675.qm@web36809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --0-1698436596-1173476187=:26675 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, I don't see how we can manage the situation where TENodeIds are not unique. At the end of the day we must process EROs/RROs that are build of TENodeID/TELinkID pairs. If TELinkID has node-scope and TENodeID is not unique, how then we can identify the specified link? So what do you suggest we put in each of these two fields? Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor but it doesn't solve the issue (and introduces different setting and processing of the link id value from rfc 3630) indeed, in ASON RC can be associated to multiple "nodes", each of these nodes can have overlapping id spaces (to identify the "links") for that reason the solution is that each TE link (top level) TLV has a new sub-TLV that associates the local and remote "node id" (the former and latter takes the TE Router ID as value) it is the substance of what i have been pointing to you in my initial e-mail (see Section 5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7: "the routing protocol MUST be able to disambiguate the advertised TE links so that they can be associated with the correct TE Router ID.") -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 20:29 To: "Ong, Lyndon" , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Lyndon, Let me try to explain my point. Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple TE routers. Solution 1 (suggested in the draft): Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair. In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really. Solution 2 (mine) The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote end of the advertised TE link – remote TE Router ID. Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to answer is: Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses? The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt. For example, if the network is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will contain path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned path.. If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs should be advertised within Router Address TLV Hope that this helps. Igor "Ong, Lyndon" wrote: Hi Dimitri, That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf igor the drafts says "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the remote RC..." in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point - concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ? thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 16:05 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node. Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: " 2.4.1. Router Address TLV The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is the TE Router ID. The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID of the remote TE node. The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be proposed in your draft ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no real difference) IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isnââ'¬â"¢t this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.ââ'¬Â In G.8080 I read: ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬Â Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. --------------------------------- 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. --0-1698436596-1173476187=:26675 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri,

I don't see how we can manage the situation where TENodeIds are not unique. At the end of the day we must process EROs/RROs that are build
of TENodeID/TELinkID pairs. If TELinkID has node-scope and TENodeID is not unique, how then we can identify the specified link? So what do you suggest we put in each of these two fields?

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor

but it doesn't solve the issue (and introduces different setting and
processing of the link id value from rfc 3630) indeed, in ASON RC can be
associated to multiple "nodes", each of these nodes can have overlapping
id spaces (to identify the "links")

for that reason the solution is that each TE link (top level) TLV has a
new sub-TLV that associates the local and remote "node id" (the former and
latter takes the TE Router ID as value)

it is the substance of what i have been pointing to you in my initial
e-mail (see Section 5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7: "the routing
protocol MUST be able to disambiguate the advertised TE links so that they
can be associated with the correct TE Router ID.")

-d.







Igor Bryskin
Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
09/03/2007 20:29

To: "Ong, Lyndon" , Dimitri
PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"
, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Two questions on
draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf


Lyndon,

Let me try to explain my point.

Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the
relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes
or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple
TE routers.

Solution 1 (suggested in the draft):

Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair.
In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really.

Solution 2 (mine)

The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs
controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE
Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there
is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the
function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote
end of the advertised TE link – remote TE Router ID.

Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to
answer is:

Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses?

The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt.
For example, if the network
is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will
contain
path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable
solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned
path..
If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs
should be advertised within Router Address TLV
Hope that this helps.

Igor




"Ong, Lyndon" wrote:
Hi Dimitri,

That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this.

Cheers,

Lyndon

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf
Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM
To: Igor Bryskin
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS;
owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf

igor

the drafts says

"Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e.

Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly
once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630].

"

which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the
remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is
associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the
remote RC..."
in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not
apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point -

concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple
associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ?

thanks,
-d.





Igor Bryskin
Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
09/03/2007 16:05

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,

> Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID?

no

> LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node,

no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case
the remote RC is associate to n "nodes"

IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the
RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently.

In RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.5.2. Link ID



The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For

point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor.

"

Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID

(identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the
neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end
of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not
advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node.

Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.4.1. Router Address TLV

The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the
advertising router that is always reachable if there is any
connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback
address". The key attribute is that the address does not become
unusable if an
interface is down. In other protocols, this is known
as the "router ID"

I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is
advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to
advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is
the TE Router ID.

The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID

of the remote TE node.

The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs
supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be
proposed in your draft

ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no


real difference)

IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I
am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to
support G.8080

Igor

pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing
your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
09/03/2007 00:03

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri, no, it does not help.

You didn't answer the first question, which is:

Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the
difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain


why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router
may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly
identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of
Remote TE Router ID is not obvious

BTW, You didn't answer the second question either.

Igor

PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding
to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view
it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece
from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying
to make.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor


pls use version (or 03
when available to make comments)

in that version you will see in Section 5.2

" Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link
(i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST
appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as
defined in [RFC3630]. "

now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of



par.5.2
but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
08/03/2007 22:11

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,
I have a couple questions wrt the
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.
In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising
local and remote TE Router ID:

0 1 2 3
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| 17 | Length |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Local TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Remote TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE
Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID?
Isnââ'¬â"¢t
this is
the same
information
that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?
In 6. you write:

ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links.
The limit of the subdivision results in
a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single
link.ââ'¬ÂÂ

In G.8080 I read:
ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP
links

that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP
links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller
routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision
results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬ÂÂ

Why is the discrepancy?

Thanks,
Igor


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Search movie showtime shortcut. --0-1698436596-1173476187=:26675-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 20:59:44 +0000 To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Ong, Lyndon" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 21:58:55 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 aWdvciANCg0KYnV0IGl0IGRvZXNuJ3Qgc29sdmUgdGhlIGlzc3VlIChhbmQgaW50cm9kdWNlcyBk aWZmZXJlbnQgc2V0dGluZyBhbmQgDQpwcm9jZXNzaW5nIG9mIHRoZSBsaW5rIGlkIHZhbHVlIGZy b20gcmZjIDM2MzApIGluZGVlZCwgaW4gQVNPTiBSQyBjYW4gYmUgDQphc3NvY2lhdGVkIHRvIG11 bHRpcGxlICJub2RlcyIsIGVhY2ggb2YgdGhlc2Ugbm9kZXMgY2FuIGhhdmUgb3ZlcmxhcHBpbmcg DQppZCBzcGFjZXMgKHRvIGlkZW50aWZ5IHRoZSAibGlua3MiKSANCg0KZm9yIHRoYXQgcmVhc29u IHRoZSBzb2x1dGlvbiBpcyB0aGF0IGVhY2ggVEUgbGluayAodG9wIGxldmVsKSBUTFYgaGFzIGEg 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charset="US-ASCII" lyndon a C-Type 3 label can help here with a VLAN bundle ID note that in this case, you will have the possibility to optionally list (set of) intervals hope this will help you, -d. "Ong, Lyndon" 09/03/2007 19:29 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: "Adrian Farrel" , , "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" , "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" , Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri, I understand what you are saying, however it is still not clear what the solution should be: a) it is not clear as you say what "label" value you would use for the EVC b) there still needs to be some method of enumerating the VIDs carried by the EVC (for this type of EVC). If the signaling does not enumerate the VIDs, then some other mechanism is necessary, to create what I think you refer to as a "bundle index". Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be] Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 4:27 PM To: Ong, Lyndon Cc: Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF lyndon o) first you will observe that the doc. MEF traffic parameters does not speak about "label distribution" reason: you will observe (by section 3.4 of RFC 3209) that label per sender (shared reservation or not) and label per link reservation (de-facto shared) are possible hence the usage of RSVP-TE traffic parameters result also in using these rules (i will add a statement to make this clearer in the next release) but remember the doc does not define any "label" format for MEF purposes o) second you will observe that the document does not infer any "VID" to EVC relationship, noticing that single CoS and multiple CoS per EVC are covered in the draft, and this, independently of the number of VIDs per EVC o) third closing the loop, the draft is not inferring any "label" to "VID" relationship (that relationship when equating an EVC with single or multiple CoS to an RSVP session is straightforward) the questions are thus the following 1. to which entity the traffic parameters are applied in case of a single EVC with multiple VIDs ? if you are following the reasoning since so far it should be per EVC (for the set of VIDs) note: per EVC+VID taken individually requires separate signaling otherwise you need a list of tspecs and a list of label + correspondance and this is another protocol, in fact boiling down to a simple relationship 2. what is the "label" value(s) in this case ? using the set of VIDs to represent a "reservation" at the control plane level is completely useless as the control plane doesn't need this info to create PSB/RSB and the entity to which the reservation is associated is the "EVC" ... so you will need to find a unique per-EVC characteristic when the 1:1 relationship between label and EVC is limitative e.g. a bundle index or so (something that boils you down to a 1:1 relationship because indepedently of the "protocol" being explicit in the enumeration IS cumbersome) thanks, -d. "Ong, Lyndon" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 08/03/2007 00:28 To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" , "Adrian Farrel" , "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Deborah, That's great that you talked to your MEF reps, I think it confirms my previous email: - there are, as you say, several models allowed in the MEF spec. One model does allow bundling of many (possibly hundreds or thousands) of VIDs in one EVC, which causes a problem if you are attempting to control the EVC with an RSVP session. The original liaison was not intended, I think, to restrict the models supported, but to identify a case where it was not clear how you would do the signaling, where the case was of particular interest to some of the carrier members of OIF. - perhaps multiple messages could be a solution. If so, it would be helpful to understand how this would work - any solutions coming out of CCAMP would be very welcome. - not sure if there is an issue on point-to-multipoint, we were just trying to address one issue at a time, I think. Now that we hopefully have a better understanding of the underlying motivations, hopefully we can make some further progress on a solution :o) Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS [mailto:dbrungard@att.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 2:28 PM To: Ong, Lyndon; Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Lyndon, I checked here among MEF reps and there are several models: bandwidth profile per ingress UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC for a UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC+CE-VLAN CoS tuple. Both untagged and tagged frames can be supported per EVC. As different bandwidth profiles could apply for each of the UNIs in an EVC, the bandwidth profile is not specified on an EVC basis, but as a UNI service attribute. Multiple EVCs can be supported at a UNI. And a mix of UNIs with different (physical/service) characteristics for a EVC is allowed. [MEF10] A new egress profile was added [MEF 10.1]. MEF's EVC, if point-to-point, associates two UNI, or it may be multi-point (multiple UNIs). And depending if CE-VLAN preservation is used, the CE-VLAN ID values may only be significant at a given UNI. The OIF liaison noted OIF was only considering point-to-point, though I am wondering why? MEF is considering both pt-to-pt and multi-point EVCs. As I mentioned at the last IETF meeting, it is difficult to understand the requirement to (one-time) signal a list of VIDs without understanding the requirements behind it. I can understand that an EVC may support (possibly;-)) 500 VIDS when bundling. I am not sure this infers one signaling message per EVC. Service multiplexing, multi-point, all will have different needs. We may want to consider other alternatives (l1vpn, call,..) to be able to support the wider MEF service scope than optimizing for one specific service attribute. Deborah -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ong, Lyndon Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 11:36 AM To: Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Adrian, I'm not the expert on this, but I think there may be two models at work here: - in one model, several originators request resource reservation for their Ethernet flows based on the associated Ethernet labels, each with some associated bandwidth. The receiving node creates a corresponding tunnel and aggregates these flows into the tunnel. - in the second model (which I believe to be the MEF EVC model, although we're checking with our MEF 'experts' on this), the originator requests an EVC service, which has an associated bandwidth from one edge of the network to another, and can support within it several Ethernet flows that share this bandwidth. If there are multiple EVCs, the originator uses signaling to identify which labels should be carried in EVCx and which should be carried in EVCy - if EVCx carries 200 Ethernet flows, then you would need to identify 200 labels as belonging to EVCx. However there is one transport requirement for the EVC, not one for each flow. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:46 PM To: MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: New communication from the OIF Julien, Dimitry, I, too, read these examples as a desire to perform aggregation of multiple Ethernet flows into a single managed flow. My question is, what is wrong with a tunnel construct? Such a construction, like the label stack in MPLS, is easily available in Ethernet. Is there a specific reason why the end-to-end labels must be visible in the data plane in the core of the network? In this sense, the request for a concatenation of labels is simply so that multiple labels can be treated in the same way, not (unlike the TDM case) in order to construct some for of virtual concatenation. If it were the case that each Ethernet label had a limited amount of bandwidth associated and it was necessary to clump labels to make a bigger unit of bandwidth, the case would be different, but that does not apply to Ethernet AFAIK. So, still struggling to understand the underlying requirement. Perhaps it is "simply" the desire to exchange only one Path message between source and destination when multiple LSPs are formed between the same pair of end-points. One might argue the same case in L3VPN deployments. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" To: ; Cc: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: cc: Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian ==== February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard, dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling messages for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 19:30:48 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=lH59bw17hSOdsoDVeP/CH+0UZxQ22Ym/rxH7bWhHdw/NaVrjZmMAK4Tothr91TMI3Z2y1/IdxO3BTtlUnvoqEEzSQp6k84X+pcOt5K/GZ7T/jOJXitzLEUBzwToSqoHQJdUbp1vg24s6CFCqrj/GbOlrrtkrLGtj7gP0v0MYpOM=; Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:29:17 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf To: "Ong, Lyndon" , Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1600286524-1173468557=:45458" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <953108.45458.qm@web36815.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --0-1600286524-1173468557=:45458 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lyndon, Let me try to explain my point. Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple TE routers. Solution 1 (suggested in the draft): Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair. In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really. Solution 2 (mine) The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote end of the advertised TE link – remote TE Router ID. Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to answer is: Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses? The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt. For example, if the network is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will contain path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned path.. If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs should be advertised within Router Address TLV Hope that this helps. Igor "Ong, Lyndon" wrote: Hi Dimitri, That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf igor the drafts says "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the remote RC..." in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point - concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ? thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 16:05 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node. Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: " 2.4.1. Router Address TLV The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is the TE Router ID. The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID of the remote TE node. The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be proposed in your draft ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no real difference) IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isnââ'¬â"¢t this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.ââ'¬Â In G.8080 I read: ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬Â Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. --------------------------------- Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. --0-1600286524-1173468557=:45458 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lyndon,
 
Let me try to explain my point.
 
Basically, we have two solutions to address the situation when the relationship between a router controller and data plane switches (TE nodes or TE routers) are 1:N, that is, when a single controller manages multiple TE routers.
 
Solution 1 (suggested in the draft):
 
Each TE Link advertising is extended with Local/Remote TE Router IDs pair. In this case, what is in the LinkID sub-TLV is not important really.
 
Solution 2 (mine)
 
The Router Address TLV is extended to advertise all TE Router IDs controlled by the advertising controller as routable addresses. The TE Link TLV is extended to advertise the local TE Router ID. However, there is no need to advertise the remote TE Router ID, because this is the function of the existing LinkID sub-TLV, which is to identify the remote end of the advertised TE link – remote TE Router ID.
 
Both these approaches solve the problem; however, an important question to answer is:
 
Do we need the TE Router IDs to be routable addresses?
 
The answer is YES according to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-05.txt. For example, if the network
 is built of unnumbered TE links, than ERO signaled in RSVP-TE Path will contain
 path in a form of TE_RtrID/ifIndex pairs, and having TE_RtrID routable solves the problem how to signal the Path message along the provisioned path..
If you agree with this, than you will also agree that all TE Router IDs should be advertised within Router Address TLV
Hope that this helps.
 
Igor
 
 


"Ong, Lyndon" <Lyong@Ciena.com> wrote:
Hi Dimitri,

That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this.

Cheers,

Lyndon

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM
To: Igor Bryskin
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf

igor

the drafts says

"Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e.
Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630].
"

which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the remote RC..."
in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point -

concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ?

thanks,
-d.





Igor Bryskin
Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
09/03/2007 16:05

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,

> Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID?

no

> LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node,

no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n "nodes"

IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the
RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently.

In RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.5.2. Link ID



The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For

point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor.

"

Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID

(identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the
neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end
of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not
advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node.

Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.4.1. Router Address TLV

The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the
advertising router that is always reachable if there is any
connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback
address". The key attribute is that the address does not become
unusable if an
interface is down. In other protocols, this is known
as the "router ID"

I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is
advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to
advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is
the TE Router ID.

The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID
of the remote TE node.

The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs
supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be
proposed in your draft

ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no

real difference)

IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I
am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to
support G.8080

Igor

pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing
your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
09/03/2007 00:03

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri, no, it does not help.

You didn't answer the first question, which is:

Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the
difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain

why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router
may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly
identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of
Remote TE Router ID is not obvious

BTW, You didn't answer the second question either.

Igor

PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding
to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view
it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece
from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying
to make.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor


pls use version (or 03
when available to make comments)

in that version you will see in Section 5.2

" Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link
(i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST
appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as
defined in [RFC3630]. "

now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of


par.5.2
but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
08/03/2007 22:11

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,
I have a couple questions wrt the
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.
In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising
local and remote TE Router ID:

0 1 2 3
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| 17 | Length |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Local TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Remote TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE
Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID?
Isnââ'¬â"¢t
this is
the same
information
that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?
In 6. you write:

ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links.
The limit of the subdivision results in
a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single
link.ââ'¬Â

In G.8080 I read:
ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP
links

that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP
links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller
routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision
results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬Â

Why is the discrepancy?

Thanks,
Igor


[
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in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.



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Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. --0-1600286524-1173468557=:45458-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 18:29:57 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:29:03 -0500 Message-ID: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07015455B9@mdmxm02.ciena.com> Thread-Topic: New communication from the OIF thread-index: AcdhGJs8Q55rjPcBQRqgAiexB0313AAwUGQg From: "Ong, Lyndon" To: Cc: "Adrian Farrel" , , "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" , "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" , Hi Dimitri, I understand what you are saying, however it is still not clear what the solution should be: a) it is not clear as you say what "label" value you would use for the EVC b) there still needs to be some method of enumerating the VIDs carried by=20 the EVC (for this type of EVC). If the signaling does not enumerate the VIDs,=20 then some other mechanism is necessary, to create what I think you refer to as=20 a "bundle index". Cheers, Lyndon=20 -----Original Message----- From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 4:27 PM To: Ong, Lyndon Cc: Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF lyndon o) first you will observe that the doc. MEF traffic parameters does not speak about "label distribution"=20 reason: you will observe (by section 3.4 of RFC 3209) that label per sender (shared reservation or not) and label per link reservation (de-facto shared) are possible hence the usage of RSVP-TE traffic parameters result also in using these rules (i will add a statement to make this clearer in the next release) but remember the doc does not define any "label" format for MEF purposes o) second you will observe that the document does not infer any "VID" to EVC relationship, noticing that single CoS and multiple CoS per EVC are covered in the draft, and this, independently of the number of VIDs per EVC=20 o) third closing the loop, the draft is not inferring any "label" to "VID"=20 relationship (that relationship when equating an EVC with single or multiple CoS to an RSVP session is straightforward)=20 the questions are thus the following 1. to which entity the traffic parameters are applied in case of a single EVC with multiple VIDs ? if you are following the reasoning since so far it should be per EVC (for the set of VIDs)=20 note: per EVC+VID taken individually requires separate signaling otherwise you need a list of tspecs and a list of label + correspondance and this is another protocol, in fact boiling down to a simple relationship=20 2. what is the "label" value(s) in this case ? using the set of VIDs to represent a "reservation" at the control plane level is completely useless as the control plane doesn't need this info to create PSB/RSB and the entity to which the reservation is associated is the "EVC" ... so you will need to find a unique per-EVC characteristic when the 1:1 relationship between label and EVC is limitative e.g. a bundle index or so (something that boils you down to a 1:1 relationship because indepedently of the "protocol" being explicit in the enumeration IS cumbersome) thanks, -d. "Ong, Lyndon" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 08/03/2007 00:28 =20 To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" ,=20 "Adrian Farrel" , "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN"=20 , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Deborah, That's great that you talked to your MEF reps, I think it confirms my previous email: - there are, as you say, several models allowed in the MEF spec. One model does allow bundling of many (possibly hundreds or thousands) of VIDs in one EVC, which=20 causes a problem if you are=20 attempting to control the EVC with an RSVP session. The original liaison was not intended, I think, to restrict the models supported, but to identify a case=20 where it was not clear how you would do the signaling, where the case was of particular interest to some of the carrier members of OIF. - perhaps multiple messages could be a solution. If so, it would be helpful to=20 understand how this would work - any solutions coming out of CCAMP would be very welcome.=20 - not sure if there is an issue on point-to-multipoint, we were just trying to=20 address one issue at a time, I think. Now that we hopefully have a better understanding of the underlying motivations, hopefully we can make some further progress on a solution :o) Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS [mailto:dbrungard@att.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 2:28 PM To: Ong, Lyndon; Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Lyndon, I checked here among MEF reps and there are several models: bandwidth profile per ingress UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC for a UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC+CE-VLAN CoS tuple. Both untagged and tagged frames can be supported per EVC. As different bandwidth profiles could apply for each of the UNIs in an EVC, the bandwidth profile is not specified on an EVC basis, but as a UNI service attribute. Multiple EVCs can be supported at a UNI. And a mix of UNIs with different (physical/service) characteristics for a EVC is allowed. [MEF10] A new egress profile was added [MEF 10.1]. MEF's EVC, if point-to-point, associates two UNI, or it may be multi-point (multiple UNIs). And depending if CE-VLAN preservation is used, the CE-VLAN ID values may only be significant at a given UNI. The OIF liaison noted OIF was only considering point-to-point, though I am wondering why? MEF is considering both pt-to-pt and multi-point EVCs. As I mentioned at the last IETF meeting, it is difficult to understand the requirement to (one-time) signal a list of VIDs without understanding the requirements behind it. I can understand that an EVC may support (possibly;-)) 500 VIDS when bundling. I am not sure this infers one signaling message per EVC. Service multiplexing, multi-point, all will have different needs. We may want to consider other alternatives (l1vpn, call,..) to be able to support the wider MEF service scope than optimizing for one specific service attribute. Deborah -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ong, Lyndon Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 11:36 AM To: Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Adrian, I'm not the expert on this, but I think there may be two models at work here: - in one model, several originators request resource reservation for their Ethernet flows based on the associated Ethernet labels, each with some associated bandwidth. The receiving node creates a corresponding tunnel and aggregates these flows into the tunnel. - in the second model (which I believe to be the MEF EVC model, although we're checking with our MEF 'experts' on this), the originator requests an EVC service, which has an associated bandwidth from one edge of the network to another, and can support within it several Ethernet flows that share this bandwidth. If there are multiple EVCs, the originator uses signaling to identify which labels should be carried in EVCx and which should be carried in EVCy - if EVCx carries 200 Ethernet flows, then you would need to identify 200 labels as belonging to EVCx. However there is one transport requirement for the EVC, not one for each flow. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:46 PM To: MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: New communication from the OIF Julien, Dimitry, I, too, read these examples as a desire to perform aggregation of multiple Ethernet flows into a single managed flow. My question is, what is wrong with a tunnel construct? Such a construction, like the label stack in MPLS, is easily available in Ethernet. Is there a specific reason why the end-to-end labels must be visible in the data plane in the core of the network? In this sense, the request for a concatenation of labels is simply so that multiple labels can be treated in the same way, not (unlike the TDM case) in order to construct some for of virtual concatenation. If it were the case that each Ethernet label had a limited amount of bandwidth associated and it was necessary to clump labels to make a bigger unit of bandwidth, the case would be different, but that does not apply to Ethernet AFAIK. So, still struggling to understand the underlying requirement. Perhaps it is "simply" the desire to exchange only one Path message between source and destination when multiple LSPs are formed between the same pair of end-points. One might argue the same case in L3VPN deployments. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" To: ; Cc: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: cc: Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian =3D=3D=3D=3D February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard, dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling messages for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 18:29:20 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:22:23 -0500 Message-ID: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07015455AE@mdmxm02.ciena.com> Thread-Topic: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf thread-index: AcdiZJayIrbSAqAIRcuA2I0DinCWSgAEzKwg From: "Ong, Lyndon" To: , "Igor Bryskin" Cc: , "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , Hi Dimitri, That was my understanding also, I don't see any issue with this. Cheers, Lyndon=20 -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:56 AM To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; = owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf=20 igor the drafts says "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link = (i.e.=20 Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly = once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in = [RFC3630].=20 "=20 which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the = remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is = associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies = the remote RC..." in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not = apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point - concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have = multiple associations in different LSAs i = don't where the problem is ? thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 16:05 =20 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"=20 Subject: Re: Two questions on=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID?=20 no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case = the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID=20 (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other = end=20 of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not=20 advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE = node. =20 Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: " 2.4.1. Router Address TLV =20 The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" =20 I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is = advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to=20 advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC = is=20 the TE Router ID. =20 The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the = ID=20 of the remote TE node.=20 =20 The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs=20 supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be = proposed in your draft =20 ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation = (no=20 real difference) =20 IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and = I=20 am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to=20 support G.8080=20 =20 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably = directing=20 your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable=20 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin=20 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"=20 Subject: Re: Two questions on=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the=20 difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers = explain=20 why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising = router=20 may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly=20 identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of=20 Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow = responding=20 to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view = it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece=20 from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is = trying=20 to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03=20 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link=20 (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST=20 appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as=20 defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning = of=20 par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin=20 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"=20 Subject: Two questions on=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising=20 local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3=20 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | 17 | Length |=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | Local TE Router Identifier |=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | Remote TE Router Identifier |=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local = TE=20 Router ID, I don=C3=A2=E2'=AC=E2"=A2t understand why the Remote Te = Router ID?=20 Isn=C3=A2=E2'=AC=E2"=A2t=20 this is=20 the same information=20 that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: =C3=A2=E2'=AC=C5"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links.=20 The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single=20 link.=C3=A2=E2'=AC=C2=9D In G.8080 I read: =C3=A2=E2'=AC=C5".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, = the SNPP=20 links=20 that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP=20 links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller=20 routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision=20 results in a routing area that contains ]one = subnetwork.=C3=A2=E2'=AC=C2=9D Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels=20 in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. =20 Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 18:14:28 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=xAvc16ICVSJxTcxRnwZ2xwHf17WAB5aKMWWHM8DP90bD303K8yaM7cJMxnG1GCM8s3edHi1Oh18Nx5vVL0dKHNsYLUoh4D1lP8BwUxsoQYjxdObhJpwRezrLvRfrfEySiJP7KrIG2rOMH5IH+4+o1Q26TTLdzTlkCazyzL+Lrhs= ; Message-ID: <20070309181319.55625.qmail@web36807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:13:19 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" , Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-635280490-1173463999=:55319" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-635280490-1173463999=:55319 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks, that is exactly what I expected to hear. Igor "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" wrote: Hi Igor, To save Dimitri time on scanning G8080, I can quickly answer your 2nd question (if I determine it correctly as it is a long thread), you ask: "In 6. you write: A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link. In G.8080 I read: .... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains one subnetwork. Why is the discrepancy?" And you continued to say in your follow up mail: "IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080" CCAMP has already agreed to update this definition to the new definition in the next version of the draft. CCAMP was informed via Q14/15's Liaison in November 2006 that the definition was changed. The draft used the definition of G.8080 (2001 and 2003). The definition was updated by an amendment in 2005 to the new definition which you reference. We did not receive any further details except to say that it was updated. Deborah -----Original Message----- From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be] Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 10:56 AM To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf igor the drafts says "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the remote RC..." in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point - concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple associations in different LSAs i don't where the problem is ? thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 16:05 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node. Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: " 2.4.1. Router Address TLV The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is the TE Router ID. The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID of the remote TE node. The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be proposed in your draft ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no real difference) IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isnââ'¬â"¢t this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.ââ'¬Â In G.8080 I read: ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬Â Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. --------------------------------- Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. --0-635280490-1173463999=:55319 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks, that is exactly what I expected to hear.

Igor

"BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com> wrote:
Hi Igor,

To save Dimitri time on scanning G8080, I can quickly answer your 2nd question (if I determine it correctly as it is a long thread), you ask:
"In 6. you write:
A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.

In G.8080 I read:
.... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains one subnetwork.
Why is the discrepancy?"

And you continued to say in your follow up mail:
"IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I
am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to
support G.8080"

CCAMP has already agreed to update this definition to the new definition in the next version of the draft. CCAMP was informed via Q14/15's Liaison in November 2006 that the definition was changed. The draft used the definition of G.8080 (2001 and 2003). The definition was updated by an amendment in 2005 to the new definition which you reference. We did not receive any further details except to say that it was updated.

Deborah


-----Original Message-----
From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be]
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 10:56 AM
To: Igor Bryskin
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS; owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf

igor

the drafts says

"Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e.
Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly
once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630].
"

which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the
remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is
associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies the
remote RC..."
in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not
apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point -

concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have multiple
associations in different LSAs i don't where the
problem is ?

thanks,
-d.





Igor Bryskin
Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
09/03/2007 16:05

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,

> Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID?

no

> LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node,

no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case
the remote RC is associate to n "nodes"

IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the
RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently.

In RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.5.2. Link ID



The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For

point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor.

"

Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID

(identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the
neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other end
of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not
advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node.

Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.4.1. Router Address TLV

The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the
advertising router that is always reachable if there is any
connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback
address". The key attribute is that the address does not become
unusable if an
interface is down. In other protocols, this is known
as the "router ID"

I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is
advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to
advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is
the TE Router ID.

The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID
of the remote TE node.

The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs
supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be
proposed in your draft

ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no

real difference)

IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I
am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to
support G.8080

Igor

pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing
your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
09/03/2007 00:03

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri, no, it does not help.

You didn't answer the first question, which is:

Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the
difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain

why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router
may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly
identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of
Remote TE Router ID is not obvious

BTW, You didn't answer the second question either.

Igor

PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding
to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view
it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece
from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying
to make.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor


pls use version (or 03
when available to make comments)

in that version you will see in Section 5.2

" Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link
(i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST
appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as
defined in [RFC3630]. "

now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of


par.5.2
but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
08/03/2007 22:11

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,
I have a couple questions wrt the
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.
In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising
local and remote TE Router ID:

0 1 2 3
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| 17 | Length |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Local TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Remote TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE
Router ID, I donââ'¬â"¢t understand why the Remote Te Router ID?
Isnââ'¬â"¢t
this is
the same
information
that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?
In 6. you write:

ââ'¬Å"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links.
The limit of the subdivision results in
a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single
link.ââ'¬Â

In G.8080 I read:
ââ'¬Å".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP
links

that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP
links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller
routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision
results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.ââ'¬Â

Why is the discrepancy?

Thanks,
Igor


[
Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.


Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.



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Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.



Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. --0-635280490-1173463999=:55319-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 17:35:12 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:33:42 -0600 Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DC83A1D@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> Thread-Topic: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf Thread-Index: AcdiY4pW+jwPHP13TKWVfZ98DTSzMQABfzOw From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" To: , "Igor Bryskin" Cc: , Hi Igor, To save Dimitri time on scanning G8080, I can quickly answer your 2nd = question (if I determine it correctly as it is a long thread), you ask: "In 6. you write: A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the = subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks = interconnected by a single link. =20 In G.8080 I read: .... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links = that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP = links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller = routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision = results in a routing area that contains one subnetwork. Why is the discrepancy?" And you continued to say in your follow up mail: "IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and = I=20 am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to=20 support G.8080" CCAMP has already agreed to update this definition to the new definition = in the next version of the draft. CCAMP was informed via Q14/15's = Liaison in November 2006 that the definition was changed. The draft used = the definition of G.8080 (2001 and 2003). The definition was updated by = an amendment in 2005 to the new definition which you reference. We did = not receive any further details except to say that it was updated. Deborah=20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be = [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be]=20 Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 10:56 AM To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS; = owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf=20 igor the drafts says "Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link = (i.e.=20 Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly=20 once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in = [RFC3630].=20 "=20 which is exactly what you are saying - when i say "it identifies the=20 remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is=20 associate to n nodes" read "it is set to the router_id that identifies = the=20 remote RC..." in brief, we keep the semantic and add a discriminator (that does not=20 apply in case of colocated 1:1 LSR) - this closes the first point - concerning the second point, since there is a possibility to have = multiple=20 associations in different LSAs i don't where = the=20 problem is ? thanks, -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 09/03/2007 16:05 =20 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"=20 Subject: Re: Two questions on=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID?=20 no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case = the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the=20 RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID=20 (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it "identifies the other = end=20 of the link". Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not=20 advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE = node. =20 Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: " 2.4.1. Router Address TLV =20 The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" =20 I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is = advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to=20 advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC = is=20 the TE Router ID. =20 The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the = ID=20 of the remote TE node.=20 =20 The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs=20 supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be = proposed in your draft =20 ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation = (no=20 real difference) =20 IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and = I=20 am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to=20 support G.8080=20 =20 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably = directing=20 your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable=20 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin=20 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"=20 Subject: Re: Two questions on=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the=20 difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers = explain=20 why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising = router=20 may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly=20 identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of=20 Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow = responding=20 to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view = it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece=20 from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is = trying=20 to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03=20 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link=20 (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST=20 appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as=20 defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning = of=20 par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin=20 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"=20 Subject: Two questions on=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the=20 draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising=20 local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3=20 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | 17 | Length |=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | Local TE Router Identifier |=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | Remote TE Router Identifier |=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local = TE=20 Router ID, I don=C3=A2=E2'=AC=E2"=A2t understand why the Remote Te = Router ID?=20 Isn=C3=A2=E2'=AC=E2"=A2t=20 this is=20 the same information=20 that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: =C3=A2=E2'=AC=C5"A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links.=20 The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single=20 link.=C3=A2=E2'=AC=C2=9D In G.8080 I read: =C3=A2=E2'=AC=C5".... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, = the SNPP=20 links=20 that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP=20 links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller=20 routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision=20 results in a routing area that contains ]one = subnetwork.=C3=A2=E2'=AC=C2=9D Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels=20 in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. =20 Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:57:19 +0000 To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Two questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 16:56:29 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 aWdvcg0KDQp0aGUgZHJhZnRzIHNheXMNCg0KIk5vdGU6IFRoZSBMaW5rIElEIHN1Yi1UTFYgdGhh dCBpZGVudGlmaWVzIHRoZSBvdGhlciBlbmQgb2YgdGhlIGxpbmsgKGkuZS4gDQpSb3V0ZXIgSUQg b2YgdGhlIG5laWdoYm9yIGZvciBwb2ludC10by1wb2ludCBsaW5rcykgTVVTVCBhcHBlYXIgZXhh Y3RseSANCm9uY2UgcGVyIExpbmsgVExWLiBUaGlzIHN1Yi1UTFYgTVVTVCBiZSBwcm9jZXNzZWQg YXMgZGVmaW5lZCBpbiBbUkZDMzYzMF0uIA0KIiANCg0Kd2hpY2ggaXMgZXhhY3RseSB3aGF0IHlv dSBhcmUgc2F5aW5nIC0gd2hlbiBpIHNheSAiaXQgaWRlbnRpZmllcyB0aGUgDQpyZW1vdGUgUkMg bm90IHRoZSByZW1vdGUgZGF0YSBwbGFuZSAibm9kZSIgaW4gY2FzZSB0aGUgcmVtb3RlIFJDIGlz 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IGZyb20gb3ZlciAxNTAsMDAwIGhvdGVscyANCmluIDQ1LDAwMCBkZXN0aW5hdGlvbnMgb24gWWFo b28hIFRyYXZlbCB0byBmaW5kIHlvdXIgZml0Lg0KDQoNCiANCiBTdWNrZXItcHVuY2ggc3BhbSB3 aXRoIGF3YXJkLXdpbm5pbmcgcHJvdGVjdGlvbi4NClRyeSB0aGUgZnJlZSBZYWhvbyEgTWFpbCBC ZXRhLg0KDQo= Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:07:33 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Y9KUu5NBZ5aqMZp+atovJzV27nS9W9Sq82gqbwp4aD2TAMmUR5S8zlNo1yEv0Ari6qe2ZgD4Bymcm1pX0vbeXdqw9hGO8GVVsRKv9ZwsMv4n9TST96AyB0H4cBP3Yf56+OX5EygEHdzzI1/G9z+sf0jmrrZuMQUTYXsckfCYD8s= ; Message-ID: <20070309150502.93330.qmail@web36806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 07:05:02 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-421440143-1173452702=:92923" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-421440143-1173452702=:92923 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, > Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? no > LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case the remote RC is associate to n "nodes" IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently. In RFC 3630 we read: " 2.5.2. Link ID The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link. For point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor. " Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID (identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it “identifies the other end of the link”. Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node. Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read: “ 2.4.1. Router Address TLV The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the advertising router that is always reachable if there is any connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback address". The key attribute is that the address does not become unusable if an interface is down. In other protocols, this is known as the "router ID" I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is the TE Router ID. The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID of the remote TE node. The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be proposed in your draft ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no real difference) IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080 Igor pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 09/03/2007 00:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I don’t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isn’t this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: “A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.†In G.8080 I read: “.... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.†Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. --------------------------------- Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. --0-421440143-1173452702=:92923 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Dimitri,

> Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID?

no

> LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node,

no, it identifies the remote RC not the remote data plane "node" in case
the remote RC is associate to n "nodes"

IB>> No, I disagree. You see that's why it's so important to quote the RFCs/drafts, because people often interpret them differently.

In RFC 3630 we read:
"
2.5.2.  Link ID



   The Link ID sub-TLV identifies the other end of the link.  For

   point-to-point links, this is the Router ID of the neighbor.

"

Note that it does not say whether this is the advertising Router ID 

(identifying neighbor RC) or TE Router ID (identifying the
 neighbor TE node). However, it does say that it “identifies the other end of the link”. Because a link is terminated by TE nodes (and not advertising routers) I conclude that LinkID identifies the remote TE node.
 
Furthermore, earlier in RFC 3630 we read:
“
2.4.1.  Router Address TLV
 
   The Router Address TLV specifies a stable IP address of the
   advertising router that is always reachable if there is any
   connectivity to it; this is typically implemented as a "loopback
   address".  The key attribute is that the address does not become
   unusable if an
 interface is down.  In other protocols, this is known
   as the "router ID"
 
I interpret that this is the same router ID as in the upper quote. It is advertised in the Router Address TLV, which is the only way today to advertise TE Router ID. Hence the router ID in the context of this RFC is the TE Router ID.
 
The conclusion #1: the TE Link TLV, as it is today, always contains the ID of the remote TE node. 
 
The conclusion #2: there is a need to advertise several TE Router IDs supported by the same RC (advertising router), which, I think, should be proposed in your draft
 
ps: second question is trivial, mathematical vs networking formulation (no
real difference)
 
IB>> Well, it changes one of the fundamental definitions of G.8080, and I am asking why is that in the draft which is supposed to define ways to support G.8080
 
Igor

pps: if you want to put guidelines on e-mail responses probably directing
your e-mail to the GEN AREA would be more suitable

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
09/03/2007 00:03

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Re: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri, no, it does not help.

You didn't answer the first question, which is:

Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the
difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain
why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router
may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly
identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of
Remote TE Router ID is not obvious

BTW, You didn't answer the second question either.

Igor

PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding
to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view
it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece
from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying
to make.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor


pls use version (or 03
when available to make comments)

in that version you will see in Section 5.2

" Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link
(i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST
appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as
defined in [RFC3630]. "

now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of

par.5.2
but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
08/03/2007 22:11

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,
I have a couple questions wrt the
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.
In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising
local and remote TE Router ID:

0 1 2 3
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| 17 | Length |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Local TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Remote TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE
Router ID, I don’t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isn’t
this is
the same
information
that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?
In 6. you write:

“A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links.
The limit of the subdivision results in
a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.â€Â

In G.8080 I read:
“.... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links

that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP
links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller
routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision
results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.â€Â

Why is the discrepancy?

Thanks,
Igor


[
Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.


Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.


 

Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. --0-421440143-1173452702=:92923-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 06:54:30 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 06:51:49 -0000 Message-ID: <3C2E60A2B33F124A8A702388733BB6066806BF@i2km99-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net> Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: Acdh2m3ujezg3B6pRb6aq4HognxrVgAMF+3Q From: To: , Cc: , , , , , Dimitri, =20 > Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be > Sent: 08 March 2007 23:34 >=20 > igor=20 >=20 > "Hence, if we are to support Ethernet layer by GMPLS, we must=20 > consider=20 > mapping them on single bi-directional LSPs." >=20 > this statement is fundamentally incorrect, NH=3D> You are correct, but for a different reason that you seem to talk about below. GMPLS is a suite of control-plane protocols...a server layer control-plane does not support/create client layer network topology, it is the server layer *data-plane* that does that job. I attempted to explain a few days ago why a p2p bidirectionally congruent server layer *data-plane* construct is THE atomic building block for client topology creation (any client)...and I tried to show an example here from fault management (eg OAM, prot-sw) considerations why this is important. As a thought experiment try constructing a client layer topology from anything other than p2p server layer building blocks. The way native cl-ps mode Ethernet works however makes this (bidirectionally congruent server requirement) rather obvious/important anyway IMO....which is the point Igor is making above, so he is actually correct in this respect. And this has nothing to do with whether one uses a GMPLS control-plane in the server layer network or not, it is only relevant to the server layer data-plane. regards, Neil > the association of control=20 > plane state to data plane state is independent on the Ethernet=20 > constraints, > one may device control plane techniques that are=20 > facilitating=20 > operations but there are by no means reason to constrain the=20 > way nodes are=20 > performing such association >=20 > as i wrote a couple of days ago >=20 > "i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are=20 > introducing several=20 > specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control=20 > plane is not=20 > going to elevate those, in part. > these constraints are=20 > independent whether=20 > one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP=20 > provisioning capability=20 > at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous=20 > times but this is=20 > one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion)" >=20 > -d. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Igor Bryskin > Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > 07/03/2007 15:34 > =20 > To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL,=20 > Adrian Farrel=20 > > cc: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)"=20 > ,=20 > ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk ,=20 > owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Pandian, Vijay"=20 > > Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was:=20 > Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] >=20 >=20 > Dimitri. >=20 > See in-line. >=20 > Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: > adrian, all >=20 > the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical bidirectional=20 > services" but "Do we have a clear requirement for=20 > asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?"=20 >=20 > when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it would=20 > surprise me that we would provision an LSP per micro-flow across the=20 > network (being Ethernet or whatever packet technology), even=20 > more, GMPLS=20 > is mostly used as an edge-to-edge technology in most cases,=20 > GMPLS capable=20 > devices do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where=20 > mentioning in their examples >=20 > i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are=20 > introducing several=20 > specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control=20 > plane is not=20 > going to elevate those, in part. these constraints are=20 > independent whether=20 >=20 > one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP=20 > provisioning capability=20 > at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous=20 > times but this is=20 >=20 > one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion) >=20 > hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing=20 > argument in=20 > favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning WITHIN a single=20 > signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments are boiling down to=20 > hypothetical control plane efficiency that can be ensured by=20 > other means=20 > if we consider the restricting conditions where the proposed approach=20 > would be workable=20 >=20 >=20 > IB>> What Neil and Don are saying is that some signifficant Ethernet > functionality will be lost if an Ethernet bi-directional=20 > service is mapped=20 > on non-congruent paths. This exactly coincides with what I=20 > hear from our=20 > local Ethernet experts. Hence, if we are to support Ethernet layer by=20 > GMPLS, we must consider mapping them on single bi-directional=20 > LSPs. This=20 > is not "hypothetical control plane efficiency" discussion.=20 > Bi-directional=20 > LSPs are as important in Ethernet as in TDM or optical=20 > layers. But I do=20 > agree with you that so far there were no convincing examples=20 > presented=20 > just yet that illustrate the need of bandwidth asymetrical services.=20 >=20 > Igor >=20 > -d. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > "Adrian Farrel"=20 > Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > 06/03/2007 12:05 > Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" >=20 > To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" ,=20 > "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk"=20 >=20 > cc:=20 > Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions=20 > on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I=20 > am not sure=20 > what problem we are trying to solve. >=20 > - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in=20 > one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? >=20 > - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one=20 > direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a=20 > switch-over of the other direction, too? >=20 > - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of=20 > control plane state in one direction must cause the removal=20 > of control plane state in the other direction? >=20 > The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling)=20 > obviously=20 > makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated=20 > signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it=20 > just needs=20 > additional message exchanges. >=20 > The use of an identical path for both directions can provide=20 > some elements=20 >=20 >=20 > of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that=20 > it does not=20 > guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail.=20 > This issue=20 > is=20 > not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the=20 > directions=20 > can=20 > be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a=20 > failure might=20 > only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. >=20 > End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different=20 > level and=20 > seem=20 > to be beyond this debate. >=20 >=20 > So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the=20 > discussion of=20 > asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: > - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services > - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the=20 > cost of new signaling objects and procedures? >=20 > Adrian >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"=20 > To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20 >=20 > Cc:=20 > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi Vijay, >=20 > let me answer this. >=20 > If you need different protection for each direction then you=20 > likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one=20 > better uses separate sessions for the two directions since=20 > all the benefits of having a single session (like fate=20 > sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID=20 > only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of=20 > the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. >=20 > Regards, > Attila >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM > To: Don Fedyk > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 >=20 > Don, >=20 > The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if=20 > one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse=20 > direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). >=20 > So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the=20 > forward and reverse direction. Am I right? >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Vijay >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM > To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Questions on > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi Vijay >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Questions on > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I have some basic questions, primarily trying to > understand the scope of this ID as well as the application=20 > behind such a requirement. >=20 > 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric > Bandwidth requirement? >=20 > The postulation was that GMPLS today supports > bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating=20 > a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this=20 > is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point,=20 > the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a=20 > single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a=20 > requirement and postulates a an > implementation.) >=20 > So to your question besides bandwidth there is also > underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session=20 > procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as=20 > Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case=20 > asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE=20 > session. Several people have pointed out this is also=20 > achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at=20 > each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I=20 > will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind=20 > more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data=20 > forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are=20 > efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On=20 > the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to=20 > specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros=20 > and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already=20 > a thread on this (RE: I-D > ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) >=20 > | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP > Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? >=20 > With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow > bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by=20 > separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE=20 > session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. >=20 > 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make > sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at=20 > each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? >=20 >=20 > Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of > the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE=20 > session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a=20 > bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at=20 > one end and/or force the paths to align. >=20 > 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse > flows to be on the same path? >=20 >=20 > That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my > case this is where the requirement comes from. There is=20 > Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding=20 > rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The=20 > requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback=20 > and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in=20 > the data plane is required. >=20 > 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this > in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? >=20 >=20 > Yes it is related. A shared resource link group > identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared=20 > paths have shared resources at a very high level of=20 > granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared=20 > resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes=20 > from the fact that both direction have common resources and=20 > if one fails the other is likely to fail. >=20 > Regards, > Don >=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Vijay >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time > with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. >=20 >=20 >=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 23:35:13 +0000 To: Igor Bryskin Cc: Adrian Farrel , "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Pandian, Vijay" Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 00:34:13 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" igor "Hence, if we are to support Ethernet layer by GMPLS, we must consider mapping them on single bi-directional LSPs." this statement is fundamentally incorrect, the association of control plane state to data plane state is independent on the Ethernet constraints, one may device control plane techniques that are facilitating operations but there are by no means reason to constrain the way nodes are performing such association as i wrote a couple of days ago "i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are introducing several specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control plane is not going to elevate those, in part. these constraints are independent whether one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP provisioning capability at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous times but this is one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion)" -d. Igor Bryskin Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 07/03/2007 15:34 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL, Adrian Farrel cc: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Pandian, Vijay" Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Dimitri. See in-line. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: adrian, all the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical bidirectional services" but "Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?" when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it would surprise me that we would provision an LSP per micro-flow across the network (being Ethernet or whatever packet technology), even more, GMPLS is mostly used as an edge-to-edge technology in most cases, GMPLS capable devices do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where mentioning in their examples i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are introducing several specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control plane is not going to elevate those, in part. these constraints are independent whether one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP provisioning capability at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous times but this is one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion) hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing argument in favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning WITHIN a single signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments are boiling down to hypothetical control plane efficiency that can be ensured by other means if we consider the restricting conditions where the proposed approach would be workable IB>> What Neil and Don are saying is that some signifficant Ethernet functionality will be lost if an Ethernet bi-directional service is mapped on non-congruent paths. This exactly coincides with what I hear from our local Ethernet experts. Hence, if we are to support Ethernet layer by GMPLS, we must consider mapping them on single bi-directional LSPs. This is not "hypothetical control plane efficiency" discussion. Bi-directional LSPs are as important in Ethernet as in TDM or optical layers. But I do agree with you that so far there were no convincing examples presented just yet that illustrate the need of bandwidth asymetrical services. Igor -d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 06/03/2007 12:05 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk" cc: Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs additional message exchanges. The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem to be beyond this debate. So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay, let me answer this. If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? Regards, Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. Regards, Don Regards, Vijay 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 23:10:53 +0000 To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 00:10:24 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 aWdvciwNCg0KPiBJcyB0aGUgTGlua0lEIGlzIHRoZSBzYW1lIGFzIFJlbW90ZSBURSBSb3V0ZXIg SUQ/IA0KDQpubw0KDQo+IExpbmtJRCB1bmFtYmlndW9zbHkgaWRlbnRpZmllcyByZW1vdGUgZGF0 YSBwbGFuZSBub2RlLA0KDQpubywgaXQgaWRlbnRpZmllcyB0aGUgcmVtb3RlIFJDIG5vdCB0aGUg cmVtb3RlIGRhdGEgcGxhbmUgIm5vZGUiIGluIGNhc2UgDQp0aGUgcmVtb3RlIFJDIGlzIGFzc29j aWF0ZSB0byBuICJub2RlcyINCg0KDQpwczogc2Vjb25kIHF1ZXN0aW9uIGlzIHRyaXZpYWwsIG1h dGhlbWF0aWNhbCB2cyBuZXR3b3JraW5nIGZvcm11bGF0aW9uIChubyANCnJlYWwgZGlmZmVyZW5j ZSkNCg0KcHBzOiBpZiB5b3Ugd2FudCB0byBwdXQgZ3VpZGVsaW5lcyBvbiBlLW1haWwgcmVzcG9u 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IA0KaW4gNDUsMDAwIGRlc3RpbmF0aW9ucyBvbiBZYWhvbyEgVHJhdmVsIHRvIGZpbmQgeW91ciBm aXQuDQoNCg== Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 23:05:29 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=KlPL/d6aZVXn4+8A5//pQokMsWqC3Md2tAuzsYKTvzd7xWe34hdQyiseJLj/Hee3TkttTOzJgibrucoubdBpz7cedH5juXPczi5EUbRiqmqJFr1o3Xy1Z6J8j5FDgNTaxleNRnzN6ontg9CMSzeEbAeT7YoGkSO5XZScyxRyTKk=; Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:03:06 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-889844309-1173394986=:23655" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <308090.23655.qm@web36813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --0-889844309-1173394986=:23655 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, no, it does not help. You didn't answer the first question, which is: Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious BTW, You didn't answer the second question either. Igor PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor pls use version (or 03 when available to make comments) in that version you will see in Section 5.2 " Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link (i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as defined in [RFC3630]. " now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of par.5.2 but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7 hope this helps, -d. Igor Bryskin 08/03/2007 22:11 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I don’t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isn’t this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: “A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.†In G.8080 I read: “.... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.†Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor [ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. --------------------------------- Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. --0-889844309-1173394986=:23655 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, no, it does not help.

You didn't answer the first question, which is:

Is the LinkID is the same as Remote TE Router ID? If no, what is the difference? If yes, why do you need the latter? Both your pointers explain why do you need advertising of the local TE Router ID (advertising router may cover multiple data plane nodes), However, LinkID unambiguosly identifies remote data plane node, and the need for the advertising of Remote TE Router ID is not obvious

BTW, You didn't answer the second question either.

Igor

PS, I have a suggestion for the working group: Let us disallow responding to the comments/questions by just pointing to RFCs or drafts. In my view it is quite unfriendly. It is always possible to cut and paste a piece from the relevant RFC or draft confirming the points the writer is trying to make.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor


pls use version (or 03
when available to make comments)

in that version you will see in Section 5.2

" Note: The Link ID sub-TLV that identifies the other end of the link
(i.e. Router ID of the neighbor for point-to-point links) MUST
appear exactly once per Link TLV. This sub-TLV MUST be processed as
defined in [RFC3630]. "

now why this sub-TLV 17, well for the reason explained at the beginning of
par.5.2
but also in RFC 4652 Section 5.7

hope this helps,
-d.




Igor Bryskin
08/03/2007 22:11

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS"

Subject: Two questions on
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft


Dimitri,
I have a couple questions wrt the
draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.
In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising
local and remote TE Router ID:

0 1 2 3
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| 17 | Length |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Local TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Remote TE Router Identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE
Router ID, I don’t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isn’t this is
the same
information
that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?
In 6. you write:

“A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links.
The limit of the subdivision results in
a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.â€

In G.8080 I read:
“.... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links
that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP
links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller
routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision
results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.â€

Why is the discrepancy?

Thanks,
Igor


[
Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.


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Travel to find your fit. --0-889844309-1173394986=:23655-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 21:24:03 +0000 To: Igor Bryskin Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Re: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 22:23:21 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 aWdvcg0KDQoNCnBscyB1c2UgdmVyc2lvbiA8ZHJhZnQtZGltaXRyaS1jY2FtcC1nbXBscy1hc29u LXJvdXRpbmctb3NwZi0wMj4gKG9yIDAzIA0Kd2hlbiBhdmFpbGFibGUgdG8gbWFrZSBjb21tZW50 cykNCg0KaW4gdGhhdCB2ZXJzaW9uIHlvdSB3aWxsIHNlZSBpbiBTZWN0aW9uIDUuMg0KDQoiIE5v dGU6IFRoZSBMaW5rIElEIHN1Yi1UTFYgdGhhdCBpZGVudGlmaWVzIHRoZSBvdGhlciBlbmQgb2Yg dGhlIGxpbmsgDQogICAoaS5lLiBSb3V0ZXIgSUQgb2YgdGhlIG5laWdoYm9yIGZvciBwb2ludC10 by1wb2ludCBsaW5rcykgTVVTVCANCiAgIGFwcGVhciBleGFjdGx5IG9uY2UgcGVyIExpbmsgVExW LiBUaGlzIHN1Yi1UTFYgTVVTVCBiZSBwcm9jZXNzZWQgYXMgDQogICBkZWZpbmVkIGluIFtSRkMz NjMwXS4gIg0KDQpub3cgd2h5IHRoaXMgc3ViLVRMViAxNywgd2VsbCBmb3IgdGhlIHJlYXNvbiBl eHBsYWluZWQgYXQgdGhlIGJlZ2lubmluZyBvZiANCnBhci41LjINCmJ1dCBhbHNvIGluIFJGQyA0 NjUyIFNlY3Rpb24gNS43DQoNCmhvcGUgdGhpcyBoZWxwcywNCi1kLg0KDQoNCg0KDQpJZ29yIEJy eXNraW4gPGlfYnJ5c2tpbkB5YWhvby5jb20+DQowOC8wMy8yMDA3IDIyOjExDQogDQogICAgICAg IFRvOiAgICAgRGltaXRyaSBQQVBBRElNSVRSSU9VL0JFL0FMQ0FURUxAQUxDQVRFTA0KICAgICAg ICBjYzogICAgIGNjYW1wQG9wcy5pZXRmLm9yZywgIkJydW5nYXJkLCBEZWJvcmFoIEEsIEFMQUJT IiANCjxkYnJ1bmdhcmRAYXR0LmNvbT4NCiAgICAgICAgU3ViamVjdDogICAgICAgIFR3byBxdWVz dGlvbnMgb24gDQpkcmFmdC1kaW1pdHJpLWNjYW1wLWdtcGxzLWFzb24tcm91dGluZy1vc3BmIGRy YWZ0DQoNCg0KRGltaXRyaSwNCiBJIGhhdmUgYSBjb3VwbGUgcXVlc3Rpb25zIHdydCB0aGUgDQpk cmFmdC1kaW1pdHJpLWNjYW1wLWdtcGxzLWFzb24tcm91dGluZy1vc3BmIGRyYWZ0Lg0KSW4gNS4y IGEgVEUgTGluayBzdWItVExWIGlzIGludHJvZHVjZWQgZm9yIHRoZSBwdXJwb3NlIG9mIGFkdmVy dGlzaW5nIA0KbG9jYWwgYW5kIHJlbW90ZSBURSBSb3V0ZXIgSUQ6DQogDQogIDAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgMSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAyICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDMgDQogICAg IDAgMSAyIDMgNCA1IDYgNyA4IDkgMCAxIDIgMyA0IDUgNiA3IDggOSAwIDEgMiAzIDQgNSA2IDcg OCA5IDAgMSANCiAgICArLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0r LSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKyANCiAgICB8ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAxNyAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgIHwgICAgICAgICAgICAgTGVuZ3RoICAgICAgICAgICAgfCANCiAgICArLSstKy0rLSstKy0r LSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKyANCiAg ICB8ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBMb2NhbCBURSBSb3V0ZXIgSWRlbnRpZmllciAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgfCANCiAgICArLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSst Ky0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKyANCiAgICB8ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIFJlbW90ZSBU RSBSb3V0ZXIgSWRlbnRpZmllciAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgfCANCiAgICArLSstKy0rLSst Ky0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKyAN CiANCkFsdGhvdWdoIEkgZG8gdW5kZXJzdGFuZCB3aHkgdGhlcmUgaXMgYSBuZWVkIGZvciBhZHZl cnRpc2luZyB0aGUgTG9jYWwgVEUgDQpSb3V0ZXIgSUQsIEkgZG9u4oCZdCB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHdo eSB0aGUgUmVtb3RlIFRlIFJvdXRlciBJRD8gSXNu4oCZdCB0aGlzIGlzIA0KdGhlIHNhbWUNCiBp bmZvcm1hdGlvbiANCnRoYXQgaXMgY2FycmllZCBpbiB0aGUgTGluayBJRCBzdWItVExWPw0KSW4g Ni4geW91IHdyaXRlOg0KIA0K4oCcQSBSQSBtYXkgY29udGFpbiBzbWFsbGVyIFJBcyBpbnRlci1j b25uZWN0ZWQgYnkgbGlua3MuIA0KVGhlIGxpbWl0IG9mIHRoZSBzdWJkaXZpc2lvbiByZXN1bHRz IGluDQogYSBSQSB0aGF0IGNvbnRhaW5zIHR3byBzdWItbmV0d29ya3MgaW50ZXJjb25uZWN0ZWQg YnkgYSBzaW5nbGUgbGluay7igJ0NCiANCkluIEcuODA4MCBJIHJlYWQ6DQrigJwuLi4uIEEgcm91 dGluZyBhcmVhIGlzIGRlZmluZWQgYnkgYSBzZXQgb2Ygc3VibmV0d29ya3MsIHRoZSBTTlBQIGxp bmtzIA0KdGhhdCBpbnRlcmNvbm5lY3QgdGhlbSwgYW5kIHRoZSBTTlBQcyByZXByZXNlbnRpbmcg dGhlIGVuZHMgb2YgdGhlIFNOUFAgDQpsaW5rcyBleGl0aW5nIHRoYXQgcm91dGluZyBhcmVhLiBB IHJvdXRpbmcgYXJlYSBtYXkgY29udGFpbiBzbWFsbGVyIA0Kcm91dGluZyBhcmVhcyBpbnRlcmNv bm5lY3RlZCBieSBTTlBQIGxpbmtzLiBUaGUgbGltaXQgb2Ygc3ViZGl2aXNpb24gDQpyZXN1bHRz IGluIGEgcm91dGluZyBhcmVhIHRoYXQgY29udGFpbnMgXW9uZSBzdWJuZXR3b3JrLuKAnQ0KIA0K V2h5IGlzIHRoZSBkaXNjcmVwYW5jeT8NCiANClRoYW5rcywNCklnb3INCiANCg0KIFsNCiBTdWNr ZXItcHVuY2ggc3BhbSB3aXRoIGF3YXJkLXdpbm5pbmcgcHJvdGVjdGlvbi4NClRyeSB0aGUgZnJl ZSBZYWhvbyEgTWFpbCBCZXRhLg0KDQo= Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 21:13:11 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=uTB8zconthTdTG9yhRIgW4n6Y4B0UPdVDs+FRxL9heWjQCTGyslebTm4e/xp9pSXk4vE7j5TqyMDDGblh4XWg6IUU2iMrz/yjgWfRGZguXiEn7y1GuTxVDKFd+PqULlSvVnNNZI00H1UDQUVl1549iafTnbQkH1QCRROd11pOas=; Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:11:42 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: Two questions on draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-988701227-1173388302=:36530" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <632483.36530.qm@web36815.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --0-988701227-1173388302=:36530 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft. In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 17 | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Remote TE Router Identifier | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I don’t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isn’t this is the same information that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV? In 6. you write: “A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. The limit of the subdivision results in a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.” In G.8080 I read: “.... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.” Why is the discrepancy? Thanks, Igor --------------------------------- [ --------------------------------- Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. --0-988701227-1173388302=:36530 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Dimitri,
 I have a couple questions wrt the draft-dimitri-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf draft.
In 5.2 a TE Link sub-TLV is introduced for the purpose of advertising local and remote TE Router ID:
 
  0                   1                   2                   3 
     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
    |              17               |             Length            | 
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+  
    |                 Local TE Router Identifier                    | 
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
    |                Remote TE Router Identifier                    | 
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
 
Although I do understand why there is a need for advertising the Local TE Router ID, I don’t understand why the Remote Te Router ID? Isn’t this is the same
 information 
that is carried in the Link ID sub-TLV?
In 6. you write:
 
“A RA may contain smaller RAs inter-connected by links. 
The limit of the subdivision results in
 a RA that contains two sub-networks interconnected by a single link.”
 
In G.8080 I read:
“.... A routing area is defined by a set of subnetworks, the SNPP links that interconnect them, and the SNPPs representing the ends of the SNPP links exiting that routing area. A routing area may contain smaller routing areas interconnected by SNPP links. The limit of subdivision results in a routing area that contains ]one subnetwork.”
 
Why is the discrepancy?
 
Thanks,
Igor
 
 [

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Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. --0-988701227-1173388302=:36530-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:55:10 +0000 Message-ID: <183701c761a2$25815e60$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Draft agenda posted Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 16:52:15 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, One agenda file contains the agendas for both meetings. http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07mar/agenda/ccamp.htm Please comment. Please send us your slides before the end of Friday 16th. Adrian and Deborah Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 07:06:35 +0000 Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:02:47 +0800 From: Dan Li Subject: draft-li-ccamp-multinodes-gr-proc-01.txt To: ccamp Cc: "Deborah A. Brungard" , "Farrel, Adrian" , Arun Satyanarayana Message-id: <013901c7614f$c7852190$a04d460a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_UK/Vf7JRXnoLgeHKF5kHnQ)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_UK/Vf7JRXnoLgeHKF5kHnQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear CCAMPers, A revised version of the Procedure for Multiple Node Graceful Restart draft has been published: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ccamp/draft-li-ccamp-multinodes-gr-proc-01.txt Some changes are made based on the previous discussions: - MUST, SHOULD, etc. are replaced by must, should etc. to make sure this is an informational draft - Added the details of the single node GR procedure, try to widen the scope of applicability to single-node & multi-node - Added Arun Satyanarayana as a co-author Any comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated. Regards, Dan Li Advanced Technology Department Wireline Networking Business Unit Huawei Technologies Co., LTD. Huawei Base, Bantian, Longgang, Shenzhen 518129 P.R.China Tel: +86-755-28973237 Fax: +86-755-28972935 *************************************************************************************** This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete it! *************************************************************************************** --Boundary_(ID_UK/Vf7JRXnoLgeHKF5kHnQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Dear CCAMPers,

A revised version of the Procedure for Multiple Node Graceful Restart draft has been published:
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ccamp/draft-li-ccamp-multinodes-gr-proc-01.txt

Some changes are made based on the previous discussions: 
- MUST, SHOULD, etc. are replaced by must, should etc. to make sure this is an informational draft 
- Added the details of the single node GR procedure, try to widen the scope of applicability to single-node & multi-node
- Added Arun Satyanarayana as a co-author

Any comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Dan Li
 
Advanced Technology Department
Wireline Networking Business Unit
Huawei Technologies Co., LTD.
Huawei Base, Bantian, Longgang,
Shenzhen 518129 P.R.China
Tel: +86-755-28973237
Fax: +86-755-28972935
***************************************************************************************
This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete it!
***************************************************************************************
--Boundary_(ID_UK/Vf7JRXnoLgeHKF5kHnQ)-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 00:28:31 +0000 To: "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" Cc: "Adrian Farrel" , "Anca Zamfir \(ancaz\)" , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Jean Philippe Vasseur \(jvasseur\)" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Next steps for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 01:28:05 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" zafar - o) would it be possible to sum'up changes you have been provided since so far ? o) would it be possible to clarify the following statement "- Graceful shutdown mechanisms are required to address TE LSPs spanning multiple domains, as well as intra domain TE LSPs. " afaik you don't shutdown LSPs but Links - right ? thanks, -d. "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 02/03/2007 00:41 To: "Adrian Farrel" , "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: , "Jean Philippe Vasseur \(jvasseur\)" , "Anca Zamfir \(ancaz\)" Subject: Next steps for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... Hi Adrian, Deborah, Dimitri, and campers- As we mentioned at the last IETF meeting, http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06nov/slides/ccamp-17/sld1.htm, we have addressed all outstanding comments, except the following comment from Dimitri, related to this ID. Should you have any further comment, please share. The only remaining comment that is not closed is "should this ID be informational or standard track". IMO the ID defines a new error-subcode and some specific behavior, and should be standard track. Can you please comment on this. The ID has been stable for quite some time and following the closure of the above, we would like to request last call. Thanks Regards... Zafar Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 00:28:23 +0000 To: "Ong, Lyndon" Cc: "Adrian Farrel" , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" , "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 01:26:33 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" lyndon o) first you will observe that the doc. MEF traffic parameters does not speak about "label distribution" reason: you will observe (by section 3.4 of RFC 3209) that label per sender (shared reservation or not) and label per link reservation (de-facto shared) are possible hence the usage of RSVP-TE traffic parameters result also in using these rules (i will add a statement to make this clearer in the next release) but remember the doc does not define any "label" format for MEF purposes o) second you will observe that the document does not infer any "VID" to EVC relationship, noticing that single CoS and multiple CoS per EVC are covered in the draft, and this, independently of the number of VIDs per EVC o) third closing the loop, the draft is not inferring any "label" to "VID" relationship (that relationship when equating an EVC with single or multiple CoS to an RSVP session is straightforward) the questions are thus the following 1. to which entity the traffic parameters are applied in case of a single EVC with multiple VIDs ? if you are following the reasoning since so far it should be per EVC (for the set of VIDs) note: per EVC+VID taken individually requires separate signaling otherwise you need a list of tspecs and a list of label + correspondance and this is another protocol, in fact boiling down to a simple relationship 2. what is the "label" value(s) in this case ? using the set of VIDs to represent a "reservation" at the control plane level is completely useless as the control plane doesn't need this info to create PSB/RSB and the entity to which the reservation is associated is the "EVC" ... so you will need to find a unique per-EVC characteristic when the 1:1 relationship between label and EVC is limitative e.g. a bundle index or so (something that boils you down to a 1:1 relationship because indepedently of the "protocol" being explicit in the enumeration IS cumbersome) thanks, -d. "Ong, Lyndon" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 08/03/2007 00:28 To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" , "Adrian Farrel" , "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Deborah, That's great that you talked to your MEF reps, I think it confirms my previous email: - there are, as you say, several models allowed in the MEF spec. One model does allow bundling of many (possibly hundreds or thousands) of VIDs in one EVC, which causes a problem if you are attempting to control the EVC with an RSVP session. The original liaison was not intended, I think, to restrict the models supported, but to identify a case where it was not clear how you would do the signaling, where the case was of particular interest to some of the carrier members of OIF. - perhaps multiple messages could be a solution. If so, it would be helpful to understand how this would work - any solutions coming out of CCAMP would be very welcome. - not sure if there is an issue on point-to-multipoint, we were just trying to address one issue at a time, I think. Now that we hopefully have a better understanding of the underlying motivations, hopefully we can make some further progress on a solution :o) Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS [mailto:dbrungard@att.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 2:28 PM To: Ong, Lyndon; Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Lyndon, I checked here among MEF reps and there are several models: bandwidth profile per ingress UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC for a UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC+CE-VLAN CoS tuple. Both untagged and tagged frames can be supported per EVC. As different bandwidth profiles could apply for each of the UNIs in an EVC, the bandwidth profile is not specified on an EVC basis, but as a UNI service attribute. Multiple EVCs can be supported at a UNI. And a mix of UNIs with different (physical/service) characteristics for a EVC is allowed. [MEF10] A new egress profile was added [MEF 10.1]. MEF's EVC, if point-to-point, associates two UNI, or it may be multi-point (multiple UNIs). And depending if CE-VLAN preservation is used, the CE-VLAN ID values may only be significant at a given UNI. The OIF liaison noted OIF was only considering point-to-point, though I am wondering why? MEF is considering both pt-to-pt and multi-point EVCs. As I mentioned at the last IETF meeting, it is difficult to understand the requirement to (one-time) signal a list of VIDs without understanding the requirements behind it. I can understand that an EVC may support (possibly;-)) 500 VIDS when bundling. I am not sure this infers one signaling message per EVC. Service multiplexing, multi-point, all will have different needs. We may want to consider other alternatives (l1vpn, call,..) to be able to support the wider MEF service scope than optimizing for one specific service attribute. Deborah -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ong, Lyndon Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 11:36 AM To: Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Adrian, I'm not the expert on this, but I think there may be two models at work here: - in one model, several originators request resource reservation for their Ethernet flows based on the associated Ethernet labels, each with some associated bandwidth. The receiving node creates a corresponding tunnel and aggregates these flows into the tunnel. - in the second model (which I believe to be the MEF EVC model, although we're checking with our MEF 'experts' on this), the originator requests an EVC service, which has an associated bandwidth from one edge of the network to another, and can support within it several Ethernet flows that share this bandwidth. If there are multiple EVCs, the originator uses signaling to identify which labels should be carried in EVCx and which should be carried in EVCy - if EVCx carries 200 Ethernet flows, then you would need to identify 200 labels as belonging to EVCx. However there is one transport requirement for the EVC, not one for each flow. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:46 PM To: MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: New communication from the OIF Julien, Dimitry, I, too, read these examples as a desire to perform aggregation of multiple Ethernet flows into a single managed flow. My question is, what is wrong with a tunnel construct? Such a construction, like the label stack in MPLS, is easily available in Ethernet. Is there a specific reason why the end-to-end labels must be visible in the data plane in the core of the network? In this sense, the request for a concatenation of labels is simply so that multiple labels can be treated in the same way, not (unlike the TDM case) in order to construct some for of virtual concatenation. If it were the case that each Ethernet label had a limited amount of bandwidth associated and it was necessary to clump labels to make a bigger unit of bandwidth, the case would be different, but that does not apply to Ethernet AFAIK. So, still struggling to understand the underlying requirement. Perhaps it is "simply" the desire to exchange only one Path message between source and destination when multiple LSPs are formed between the same pair of end-points. One might argue the same case in L3VPN deployments. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" To: ; Cc: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: cc: Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian ==== February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard, dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling messages for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 23:32:54 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:28:50 -0500 Message-ID: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07014C308E@mdmxm02.ciena.com> Thread-Topic: New communication from the OIF thread-index: AcdfgSy3iro7QChERHuia03wJ72qIAA9iLAgACDGFbAABHKngA== From: "Ong, Lyndon" To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" , "Adrian Farrel" , "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" , Cc: Hi Deborah, That's great that you talked to your MEF reps, I think it confirms my previous email: - there are, as you say, several models allowed in the MEF spec. One model does allow bundling of many (possibly hundreds or thousands) of VIDs in one EVC, which=20 causes a problem if you are=20 attempting to control the EVC with an RSVP session. The original liaison was not intended, I think, to restrict the models supported, but to identify a case=20 where it was not clear how you would do the signaling, where the case was of particular interest to some of the carrier members of OIF. - perhaps multiple messages could be a solution. If so, it would be helpful to=20 understand how this would work - any solutions coming out of CCAMP would be very welcome. =20 - not sure if there is an issue on point-to-multipoint, we were just trying to=20 address one issue at a time, I think. Now that we hopefully have a better understanding of the underlying motivations, hopefully we can make some further progress on a solution :o) Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS [mailto:dbrungard@att.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 2:28 PM To: Ong, Lyndon; Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Lyndon, I checked here among MEF reps and there are several models: bandwidth profile per ingress UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC for a UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC+CE-VLAN CoS tuple. Both untagged and tagged frames can be supported per EVC. As different bandwidth profiles could apply for each of the UNIs in an EVC, the bandwidth profile is not specified on an EVC basis, but as a UNI service attribute. Multiple EVCs can be supported at a UNI. And a mix of UNIs with different (physical/service) characteristics for a EVC is allowed. [MEF10] A new egress profile was added [MEF 10.1]. MEF's EVC, if point-to-point, associates two UNI, or it may be multi-point (multiple UNIs). And depending if CE-VLAN preservation is used, the CE-VLAN ID values may only be significant at a given UNI. The OIF liaison noted OIF was only considering point-to-point, though I am wondering why? MEF is considering both pt-to-pt and multi-point EVCs. As I mentioned at the last IETF meeting, it is difficult to understand the requirement to (one-time) signal a list of VIDs without understanding the requirements behind it. I can understand that an EVC may support (possibly;-)) 500 VIDS when bundling. I am not sure this infers one signaling message per EVC. Service multiplexing, multi-point, all will have different needs. We may want to consider other alternatives (l1vpn, call,..) to be able to support the wider MEF service scope than optimizing for one specific service attribute. Deborah -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ong, Lyndon Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 11:36 AM To: Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Adrian, I'm not the expert on this, but I think there may be two models at work here: - in one model, several originators request resource reservation for their Ethernet flows based on the associated Ethernet labels, each with some associated bandwidth. The receiving node creates a corresponding tunnel and aggregates these flows into the tunnel. - in the second model (which I believe to be the MEF EVC model, although we're checking with our MEF 'experts' on this), the originator requests an EVC service, which has an associated bandwidth from one edge of the network to another, and can support within it several Ethernet flows that share this bandwidth. If there are multiple EVCs, the originator uses signaling to identify which labels should be carried in EVCx and which should be carried in EVCy - if EVCx carries 200 Ethernet flows, then you would need to identify 200 labels as belonging to EVCx. However there is one transport requirement for the EVC, not one for each flow. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:46 PM To: MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: New communication from the OIF Julien, Dimitry, I, too, read these examples as a desire to perform aggregation of multiple Ethernet flows into a single managed flow. My question is, what is wrong with a tunnel construct? Such a construction, like the label stack in MPLS, is easily available in Ethernet. Is there a specific reason why the end-to-end labels must be visible in the data plane in the core of the network? In this sense, the request for a concatenation of labels is simply so that multiple labels can be treated in the same way, not (unlike the TDM case) in order to construct some for of virtual concatenation. If it were the case that each Ethernet label had a limited amount of bandwidth associated and it was necessary to clump labels to make a bigger unit of bandwidth, the case would be different, but that does not apply to Ethernet AFAIK. So, still struggling to understand the underlying requirement. Perhaps it is "simply" the desire to exchange only one Path message between source and destination when multiple LSPs are formed between the same pair of end-points. One might argue the same case in L3VPN deployments. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" To: ; Cc: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: cc: Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian =3D=3D=3D=3D February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard, dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling messages for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 22:29:48 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 16:28:11 -0600 Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DC3FE4C@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> Thread-Topic: New communication from the OIF Thread-Index: AcdfgSy3iro7QChERHuia03wJ72qIAA9iLAgACDGFbA= From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" To: "Ong, Lyndon" , "Adrian Farrel" , "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" , Cc: Hi Lyndon, I checked here among MEF reps and there are several models: bandwidth profile per ingress UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC for a UNI, bandwidth profile per ingress EVC+CE-VLAN CoS tuple. Both untagged and tagged frames can be supported per EVC. As different bandwidth profiles could apply for each of the UNIs in an EVC, the bandwidth profile is not specified on an EVC basis, but as a UNI service attribute. Multiple EVCs can be supported at a UNI. And a mix of UNIs with different (physical/service) characteristics for a EVC is allowed. [MEF10] A new egress profile was added [MEF 10.1]. MEF's EVC, if point-to-point, associates two UNI, or it may be multi-point (multiple UNIs). And depending if CE-VLAN preservation is used, the CE-VLAN ID values may only be significant at a given UNI. The OIF liaison noted OIF was only considering point-to-point, though I am wondering why? MEF is considering both pt-to-pt and multi-point EVCs. As I mentioned at the last IETF meeting, it is difficult to understand the requirement to (one-time) signal a list of VIDs without understanding the requirements behind it. I can understand that an EVC may support (possibly;-)) 500 VIDS when bundling. I am not sure this infers one signaling message per EVC. Service multiplexing, multi-point, all will have different needs. We may want to consider other alternatives (l1vpn, call,..) to be able to support the wider MEF service scope than optimizing for one specific service attribute. Deborah -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ong, Lyndon Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 11:36 AM To: Adrian Farrel; MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Adrian, I'm not the expert on this, but I think there may be two models at work here: - in one model, several originators request resource reservation for their Ethernet flows=20 based on the associated Ethernet labels, each with some associated bandwidth. The receiving=20 node creates a corresponding tunnel and aggregates these flows into the tunnel. - in the second model (which I believe to be the MEF EVC model, although we're checking with our MEF 'experts' on this), the originator requests an EVC service, which has an=20 associated bandwidth from one edge of the network to another, and can support within it several Ethernet flows that share this bandwidth. If there are multiple EVCs, the=20 originator uses signaling to identify which labels should be carried in EVCx and which should be carried in EVCy - if EVCx carries 200 Ethernet flows, then you would need to identify 200 labels as belonging to EVCx. However there is one transport requirement for the EVC, not one for each flow. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:46 PM To: MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: New communication from the OIF Julien, Dimitry, I, too, read these examples as a desire to perform aggregation of multiple Ethernet flows into a single managed flow. My question is, what is wrong with a tunnel construct? Such a construction, like the label stack in MPLS, is easily available in Ethernet. Is there a specific reason why the end-to-end labels must be visible in the data plane in the core of the network? In this sense, the request for a concatenation of labels is simply so that multiple labels can be treated in the same way, not (unlike the TDM case) in order to construct some for of virtual concatenation. If it were the case that each Ethernet label had a limited amount of bandwidth associated and it was necessary to clump labels to make a bigger unit of bandwidth, the case would be different, but that does not apply to Ethernet AFAIK. So, still struggling to understand the underlying requirement. Perhaps it is "simply" the desire to exchange only one Path message between source and destination when multiple LSPs are formed between the same pair of end-points. One might argue the same case in L3VPN deployments. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" To: ; Cc: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: cc: Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian =3D=3D=3D=3D February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard, dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling messages for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 20:52:32 +0000 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt Message-Id: Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 15:50:04 -0500 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : Traffic Engineering Database Management Information Base in support of GMPLS Author(s) : T. Nadeau, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt Pages : 23 Date : 2007-3-7 This memo defines the Management Information Base (MIB) objects in order to manage traffic engineering database (TED) information with extension in support of Multi-protocol label switching (MPLS) as well as Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) for use with network management protocols. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-7145541.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-7145541.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:46:36 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:43:49 -0500 Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DF212AC@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: AcdgOKamNpQzXbsWS/WkAJ3lHwtNaQAAJ0NQ From: "Don Fedyk" To: , "Adrian Farrel" Cc: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , , , "Pandian, Vijay" Hi Dimitri=20 Inline [DF] > -----Original Message----- > From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be=20 >=20 > adrian, all >=20 > the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical bidirectional services" > but "Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical=20 > bidirectional LSPs?"=20 [DF] I agree.=20 >=20 > when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it would=20 > surprise me that we would provision an LSP per micro-flow across the=20 > network (being Ethernet or whatever packet technology), even=20 > more, GMPLS=20 > is mostly used as an edge-to-edge technology in most cases,=20 > GMPLS capable=20 > devices do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where=20 > mentioning in their examples [DF] Two points. The GMPLS for Ethernet Provider Backbone Bridges-TE is hardly a micro flow but you are correct that at high bandwidth levels it would likely be symmetric BW.=20 >=20 > i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are=20 > introducing several=20 > specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control=20 > plane is not=20 > going to elevate those, in part. these constraints are=20 > independent whether=20 > one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP=20 > provisioning capability=20 > at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous=20 > times but this is=20 > one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion) [DF] Sorry I'm missing your point here.=20 >=20 > hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing=20 > argument in=20 > favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning WITHIN a single=20 > signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments are boiling down to=20 > hypothetical control plane efficiency that can be ensured by=20 > other means=20 > if we consider the restricting conditions where the proposed approach=20 > would be workable=20 [DF] I don't agree on the efficiency point. By any measure of efficiency a single RSVP-TE session that handles both directions and possibly different bandwidths is better that 2 that do 1/2 the job each. If bandwidth is the same, in each direction today we don't need an extension. Igor gave a nice summary. =20 BTW I do believe that there will be an association object to correlate at the very least primary and back-up bi-directional LSP. I agree an association object can manage 2 RSVP-TE uni-directional sessions for a full bi-directional connection, and while there is some merit to not extending current BW semantics there are also a set of new correlation rules that have not been implemented.=20 So if we enumerate the GMPLS LSP building block possibilities I see:=20 Unidirectional LSP with BW (supported today by existing procedures) - 1 RSVP-TE session=20 Symmetric BW bi-directional LSP (supported today by existing procedures) - 1 RSVP-TE session can be used by existing GMPLS=20 Asymmetric BW bi-directional LSP (not yet defined). - 2 Unidirectional LSPs with BW + an association object need to be used plus a set of extensions to path correlation=20 OR=20 - 1 Symmetric BW bi-directional LSP can be used and no BW objects (many MPLS TE sessions have no real BW in the control plane) OR - 1 Symmetric BW bi-directional LSP a bi-directional BW object.=20 Regards, Don=20 >=20 > -d. >=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 =20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 16:38:06 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:35:41 -0500 Message-ID: <0901D1988E815341A0103206A834DA07014C2F6C@mdmxm02.ciena.com> Thread-Topic: New communication from the OIF thread-index: AcdfgSy3iro7QChERHuia03wJ72qIAA9iLAg From: "Ong, Lyndon" To: "Adrian Farrel" , "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" , Cc: Hi Adrian, I'm not the expert on this, but I think there may be two models at work here: - in one model, several originators request resource reservation for their Ethernet flows=20 based on the associated Ethernet labels, each with some associated bandwidth. The receiving=20 node creates a corresponding tunnel and aggregates these flows into the tunnel. - in the second model (which I believe to be the MEF EVC model, although we're checking with our MEF 'experts' on this), the originator requests an EVC service, which has an=20 associated bandwidth from one edge of the network to another, and can support within it several Ethernet flows that share this bandwidth. If there are multiple EVCs, the=20 originator uses signaling to identify which labels should be carried in EVCx and which should be carried in EVCy - if EVCx carries 200 Ethernet flows, then you would need to identify 200 labels as belonging to EVCx. However there is one transport requirement for the EVC, not one for each flow. Cheers, Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:46 PM To: MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: New communication from the OIF Julien, Dimitry, I, too, read these examples as a desire to perform aggregation of multiple Ethernet flows into a single managed flow. My question is, what is wrong with a tunnel construct? Such a construction, like the label stack in MPLS, is easily available in Ethernet. Is there a specific reason why the end-to-end labels must be visible in the data plane in the core of the network? In this sense, the request for a concatenation of labels is simply so that multiple labels can be treated in the same way, not (unlike the TDM case) in order to construct some for of virtual concatenation. If it were the case that each Ethernet label had a limited amount of bandwidth associated and it was necessary to clump labels to make a bigger unit of bandwidth, the case would be different, but that does not apply to Ethernet AFAIK. So, still struggling to understand the underlying requirement. Perhaps it is "simply" the desire to exchange only one Path message between source and destination when multiple LSPs are formed between the same pair of end-points. One might argue the same case in L3VPN deployments. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" To: ; Cc: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: cc: Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian =3D=3D=3D=3D February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard, dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling messages for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 15:51:36 +0000 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt Message-Id: Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 10:50:02 -0500 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : Graceful Shutdown in GMPLS Traffic Engineering Networks Author(s) : Z. Ali, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2007-3-7 GMPLS-TE Graceful shutdown is a method for explicitly notifying the nodes in a Traffic Engineering (TE) enabled network that the TE capability on a link or on an entire Label Switching Router (LSR) is going to be disabled. GMPLS-TE graceful shutdown mechanisms are tailored towards addressing the planned outage in the network. This document provides requirements and protocol mechanisms so as to reduce/eliminate traffic disruption in the event of a planned shutdown of a network resource. These operations are equally applicable for both MPLS and its GMPLS extensions. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-7092307.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-02.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-7092307.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:37:03 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=sxAsnJPxy/+rLw4NhUjpKWfcFY6Q1XRBACHcQTFTuhcnXokcNJmua+RHo5UeEC16RZQhkoH3i0Na8glB1cosocVTTuS9rNC2cgNgXX0DDA+Ju651k2JpWWWeRlTRQUmx/3yvB9Rha+xDKBiABVPcHeyO1myAy49S2RNEzJrwyoc= ; Message-ID: <20070307143418.50872.qmail@web36807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:34:18 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be, Adrian Farrel Cc: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Pandian, Vijay" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1027318012-1173278058=:50727" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-1027318012-1173278058=:50727 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri. See in-line. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: adrian, all the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical bidirectional services" but "Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?" when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it would surprise me that we would provision an LSP per micro-flow across the network (being Ethernet or whatever packet technology), even more, GMPLS is mostly used as an edge-to-edge technology in most cases, GMPLS capable devices do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where mentioning in their examples i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are introducing several specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control plane is not going to elevate those, in part. these constraints are independent whether one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP provisioning capability at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous times but this is one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion) hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing argument in favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning WITHIN a single signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments are boiling down to hypothetical control plane efficiency that can be ensured by other means if we consider the restricting conditions where the proposed approach would be workable IB>> What Neil and Don are saying is that some signifficant Ethernet functionality will be lost if an Ethernet bi-directional service is mapped on non-congruent paths. This exactly coincides with what I hear from our local Ethernet experts. Hence, if we are to support Ethernet layer by GMPLS, we must consider mapping them on single bi-directional LSPs. This is not "hypothetical control plane efficiency" discussion. Bi-directional LSPs are as important in Ethernet as in TDM or optical layers. But I do agree with you that so far there were no convincing examples presented just yet that illustrate the need of bandwidth asymetrical services. Igor -d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 06/03/2007 12:05 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk" cc: Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs additional message exchanges. The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem to be beyond this debate. So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay, let me answer this. If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? Regards, Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. Regards, Don Regards, Vijay --------------------------------- 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. --0-1027318012-1173278058=:50727 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri.

See in-line.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
adrian, all

the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical bidirectional services"
but "Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?"

when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it would
surprise me that we would provision an LSP per micro-flow across the
network (being Ethernet or whatever packet technology), even more, GMPLS
is mostly used as an edge-to-edge technology in most cases, GMPLS capable
devices do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where
mentioning in their examples

i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are introducing several
specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control plane is not
going to elevate those, in part. these constraints are independent whether
one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP provisioning capability
at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous times but this is
one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion)

hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing argument in
favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning WITHIN a single
signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments are boiling down to
hypothetical control plane efficiency that can be ensured by other means
if we consider the restricting conditions where the proposed approach
would be workable


IB>> What Neil and Don are saying is that some signifficant Ethernet functionality will be lost if an Ethernet bi-directional service is mapped on non-congruent paths. This exactly coincides with what I hear from our local Ethernet experts. Hence, if we are to support Ethernet layer by GMPLS, we must consider mapping them on single bi-directional LSPs. This is not "hypothetical control plane efficiency" discussion. Bi-directional LSPs are as important in Ethernet as in TDM or optical layers. But I do agree with you that so far there were no convincing examples presented just yet that illustrate the need of bandwidth asymetrical services.

Igor

-d.








"Adrian Farrel"
Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
06/03/2007 12:05
Please respond to "Adrian Farrel"

To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" ,
"Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk"

cc:
Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions
on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt]


Hi,

There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure
what problem we are trying to solve.

- Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one
direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions?

- Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one
direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a
switch-over of the other direction, too?

- Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control
plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control
plane state in the other direction?

The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling)
obviously
makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated
signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs
additional message exchanges.

The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements

of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not
guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue
is
not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions
can
be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might
only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling.

End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and
seem
to be beyond this debate.


So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of
asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to:
- We need asymmetrical bidirectional services
- Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the
cost of new signaling objects and procedures?

Adrian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"
To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"

Cc:
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi Vijay,

let me answer this.

If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will
need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate
sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a
single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different
routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property
of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471.

Regards,
Attila

________________________________

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM
To: Don Fedyk
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt



Don,

The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one
direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction
probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing).

So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the
forward and reverse direction. Am I right?

Regards,

Vijay



-----Original Message-----
From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM
To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on
draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi Vijay


________________________________

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
[mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM
To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions on
draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi,

I have some basic questions, primarily trying to
understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a
requirement.

1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric
Bandwidth requirement?

The postulation was that GMPLS today supports
bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a
bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical
TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates
setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like
many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an
implementation.)

So to your question besides bandwidth there is also
underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and
support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A
single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other
words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is
also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each
end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge
the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the
technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and
there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On
the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the
asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple
sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D
ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)

| 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP
Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes?

With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow
bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate
RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated
with the primary bidirectional LSP.

3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make
sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end)
and eventually signal them independently as well?


Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of
the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session &
LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric
path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to
align.

4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse
flows to be on the same path?


That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my
case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data
plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require
bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to
support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and
bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required.

5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this
in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?


Yes it is related. A shared resource link group
identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have
shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths
have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the
shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common
resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail.

Regards,
Don


Regards,

Vijay








8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. --0-1027318012-1173278058=:50727-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 07:08:21 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 07:05:44 -0000 Message-ID: <3C2E60A2B33F124A8A702388733BB60656E3BA@i2km99-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net> Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: AcdgOrXzDGo9dUQKSM6uNncoP+RWcQAAk8CgAA/xJ9A= From: To: , , Cc: John....tend to agree with these points. The only truly recursive topological construct is p2p.....one can almost consider this as THE topological atomic building block of hierarchy (ie a client/server layer network relationship). This becomes quite evident when we consider the fact that a link connection in layer network N is provided by a trail in layer network N-1...a relationship which is clearly recursive across a stack of nested layer networks. Now a p2mp construct (like a p2p construct) is also a connection (Note - A trail is specific p2p relationship, so in a p2mp connection a trail exists between the root and each leaf). However mp2p and mp2mp constructs are not connections. As previously noted, one can only recursively construct topology with a p2p connection. So if we want to create p2mp connections (and we will) these should only exist at the very top of a network stack in the context of a some service instance, ie we cannot use p2mp connections (and certainly not mp2p and mp2mp constructs) for recursive topology creation. Why is this important?=20 Well, its all about deterministic resource assignment and management....and this plays through to a whole raft of practical considerations (eg OAM/fault management, performance/SLAs, etc) that should be important to operators and their customers (which can be other operators). The key point about a connection is that it must only have a single source and no internal routing once created....this is essentially a definition of a connection, and it comes from information theory considerations of resource determinism. Connections do not (obviously) exist in the cl-ps mode. In the co-cs mode connections can be created using time (eg SDH/PDH), freq (eg WDM) and space (eg per fibre) dimension resource partitions. In the co-ps mode connections can only be practically created by resource partitioning of the time dimension. Note that the key difference between the co-cs and co-ps mode in the time dimension is one of regular or irregular (respectively) partitioning of resource. What this essentially means is that labelling and resource assignment are coupled/fixed processes and always deterministic in the co-cs mode but not in the co-ps mode. This has many immediate practical consequences too, eg one can't create mp2p constructs in the co-cs mode but one can in the co-ps mode. Aside=3D> A practical consideration (but not axiomatic to its = definition) is that once created a connection is only consciously moved by (i) a customer request (most obvious for SVC case), (ii) from failures (eg prot-sw) or (iii) by premeditated planned works. Counter example: If we add nodes/links to a cl-ps mode network than traffic can move at will under the routing rules of the IGP, but this is not true (or should not be true) in co-ps and co-cs mode networks....nothing intrinsically wrong with that, its purely a function of the connection object and how this must be defined wrt BOTH labelling and resource assignment considerations. And a key point to grasp in all this is that the 3 network modes are quite different and it is folly to try and treat them all identically alike. Now, the above was what I was hinting at in my last mail to Igor wrt to the point about the binding of CV OAM messages (forward defect-detection) and BDI OAM messages (backward defect-detection indication) for fault management. It's quite an important point, and its why in a client/server relationship for creating topology we require congruent bidirectional routings of the symmetric atomic p2p connection building block. regards, Neil > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Drake, John E > Sent: 06 March 2007 22:24 > To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; Adrian Farrel > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions=20 > on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] >=20 >=20 > Dimitri, >=20 > I think you're absolutely right. Furthermore, this=20 > application seems to be a natural for LSP hierarchy, where=20 > there would be a containing symmetric bi-directional LSP with=20 > contained asymmetric uni-directional LSPs. The latter would=20 > be correlated with the Association object. >=20 > This would give you fate sharing and fast recovery via the=20 > re-instantiation of the containing LSP, and reasonable=20 > control plane performance, since the contained LSP signaling=20 > is only between the containing LSP endpoints. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > John=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be > > [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be]=20 > > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:45 PM > > To: Adrian Farrel > > Cc: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Don Fedyk;=20 > > owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Pandian, Vijay > > Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions=20 > > on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] > >=20 > > adrian, all > >=20 > > the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical=20 > bidirectional services"=20 > > but "Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional=20 > > LSPs?" > >=20 > > when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it > > would surprise me that we would provision an LSP per=20 > > micro-flow across the network (being Ethernet or whatever=20 > > packet technology), even more, GMPLS is mostly used as an=20 > > edge-to-edge technology in most cases, GMPLS capable devices=20 > > do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where=20 > > mentioning in their examples > >=20 > > i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are > > introducing several specific (data plane) constraints,=20 > > indeed, but the control plane is not going to elevate those,=20 > > in part. these constraints are independent whether one has=20 > > unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP provisioning=20 > > capability at control plane level (adrian pointed this out=20 > > numerous times but this is one of the cornerstone of the=20 > > whole discussion) > >=20 > > hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing > > argument in favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning=20 > > WITHIN a single signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments=20 > > are boiling down to hypothetical control plane efficiency=20 > > that can be ensured by other means if we consider the=20 > > restricting conditions where the proposed approach would be=20 > workable=20 > >=20 > > -d. > >=20 > >=20 > > =20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > "Adrian Farrel" > > Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > > 06/03/2007 12:05 > > Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" > > =20 > > To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)"=20 > > , > > "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk"=20 > > > > cc: > > Subject: What is this fate sharing thing?=20 > > [Was: Questions=20 > > on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] > >=20 > >=20 > > Hi, > >=20 > > There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I > > am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. > >=20 > > - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one > > direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? > >=20 > > - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one > > direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a > > switch-over of the other direction, too? > >=20 > > - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control > > plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control > > plane state in the other direction? > >=20 > > The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional > > signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing=20 > > automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not=20 > > preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs=20 > > additional message exchanges. > >=20 > > The use of an identical path for both directions can provide > > some elements=20 > >=20 > > of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that > > it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber=20 > > could fail. This issue is not impacted by bidirectional or=20 > > associated signaling as the directions can be installed on=20 > > the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only=20 > > impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. > >=20 > > End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different > > level and seem to be beyond this debate. > >=20 > >=20 > > So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the > > discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion=20 > > has reduced to: > > - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services > > - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the > > cost of new signaling objects and procedures? > >=20 > > Adrian > >=20 > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" > > To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk" > > > > Cc: > > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM > > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > >=20 > >=20 > > Hi Vijay, > >=20 > > let me answer this. > >=20 > > If you need different protection for each direction then you > > likely will > > need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate > > sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a > > single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take=20 > different > > routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical=20 > > bandwidth property > > of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. > >=20 > > Regards, > > Attila > >=20 > > ________________________________ > >=20 > > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On=20 > > Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM > > To: Don Fedyk > > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Don, > >=20 > > The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one=20 > > direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction=20 > > probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). > >=20 > > So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for=20 > the forward=20 > > and reverse direction. Am I right? > >=20 > > Regards, > >=20 > > Vijay > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] > > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM > > To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org > > Subject: RE: Questions on > > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > >=20 > >=20 > > Hi Vijay > >=20 > >=20 > > ________________________________ > >=20 > > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On=20 > > Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM > > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > > Subject: Questions on > > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > >=20 > >=20 > > Hi, > >=20 > > I have some basic questions, primarily trying to > > understand the scope of this ID as well as the application > > behind such a > > requirement. > >=20 > > 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric > > Bandwidth requirement? > >=20 > > The postulation was that GMPLS today supports > > bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a=20 > > bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this=20 > is Optical=20 > > TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates=20 > > setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric=20 > LSP. (Like=20 > > many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an > > implementation.) > >=20 > > So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying=20 > > requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and > > support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does=20 > today. A > > single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable)=20 > > LSP. In other > > words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed=20 > > out this is > > also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions=20 > (one at each > > end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will=20 > > acknowledge > > the authors had a single session in mind more as a=20 > requirement of the > > technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional=20 > symmetric and > > there are efficiencies in a single session of a=20 > > bi-directional LSP. On > > the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the > > asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple > > sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D > > ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) > >=20 > > | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP > > Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? > >=20 > > With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow > > bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate=20 > > RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session=20 > > associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. > >=20 > > 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make > > sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation=20 > at each end)=20 > > and eventually signal them independently as well? > >=20 > >=20 > > Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of > > the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE=20 > session &=20 > > LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional=20 > symmetric=20 > > path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to=20 > > align. > >=20 > > 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse > > flows to be on the same path? > >=20 > >=20 > > That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my > > case this is where the requirement comes from. There is=20 > Ethernet data=20 > > plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both=20 > > require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is=20 > to be able=20 > > to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace=20 > functions and > > bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. > >=20 > > 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this > > in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? > >=20 > >=20 > > Yes it is related. A shared resource link group > > identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared > > paths have > > shared resources at a very high level of granularity. =20 > Disjoint paths > > have none or very few shared resources. For a=20 > bidirectional path the > > shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common > > resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. > >=20 > > Regards, > > Don > >=20 > >=20 > > Regards, > >=20 > > Vijay > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 22:25:15 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:24:06 -0800 Message-ID: <626FC7C6A97381468FB872072AB5DDC8C2E33D@XCH-SW-42.sw.nos.boeing.com> Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: AcdgOrXzDGo9dUQKSM6uNncoP+RWcQAAk8Cg From: "Drake, John E" To: , "Adrian Farrel" Cc: Dimitri, I think you're absolutely right. Furthermore, this application seems to be a natural for LSP hierarchy, where there would be a containing symmetric bi-directional LSP with contained asymmetric uni-directional LSPs. The latter would be correlated with the Association object. This would give you fate sharing and fast recovery via the re-instantiation of the containing LSP, and reasonable control plane performance, since the contained LSP signaling is only between the containing LSP endpoints. Thanks, John=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be=20 > [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:45 PM > To: Adrian Farrel > Cc: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Don Fedyk;=20 > owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Pandian, Vijay > Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions=20 > on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] >=20 > adrian, all >=20 > the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical bidirectional services" > but "Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical=20 > bidirectional LSPs?"=20 >=20 > when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it=20 > would surprise me that we would provision an LSP per=20 > micro-flow across the network (being Ethernet or whatever=20 > packet technology), even more, GMPLS is mostly used as an=20 > edge-to-edge technology in most cases, GMPLS capable devices=20 > do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where=20 > mentioning in their examples >=20 > i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are=20 > introducing several specific (data plane) constraints,=20 > indeed, but the control plane is not going to elevate those,=20 > in part. these constraints are independent whether one has=20 > unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP provisioning=20 > capability at control plane level (adrian pointed this out=20 > numerous times but this is one of the cornerstone of the=20 > whole discussion) >=20 > hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing=20 > argument in favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning=20 > WITHIN a single signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments=20 > are boiling down to hypothetical control plane efficiency=20 > that can be ensured by other means if we consider the=20 > restricting conditions where the proposed approach would be workable=20 >=20 > -d. >=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > "Adrian Farrel" > Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > 06/03/2007 12:05 > Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" > =20 > To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)"=20 > ,=20 > "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk"=20 > > cc: > Subject: What is this fate sharing thing?=20 > [Was: Questions=20 > on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I=20 > am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. >=20 > - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one > direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? >=20 > - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one > direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a > switch-over of the other direction, too? >=20 > - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control > plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control > plane state in the other direction? >=20 > The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional=20 > signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing=20 > automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not=20 > preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs=20 > additional message exchanges. >=20 > The use of an identical path for both directions can provide=20 > some elements=20 >=20 > of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that=20 > it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber=20 > could fail. This issue is not impacted by bidirectional or=20 > associated signaling as the directions can be installed on=20 > the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only=20 > impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. >=20 > End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different=20 > level and seem to be beyond this debate. >=20 >=20 > So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the=20 > discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion=20 > has reduced to: > - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services > - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the > cost of new signaling objects and procedures? >=20 > Adrian >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" > To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20 > > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi Vijay, >=20 > let me answer this. >=20 > If you need different protection for each direction then you=20 > likely will > need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate > sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a > single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different > routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical=20 > bandwidth property > of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. >=20 > Regards, > Attila >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM > To: Don Fedyk > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 >=20 > Don, >=20 > The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one > direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction > probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). >=20 > So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the > forward and reverse direction. Am I right? >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Vijay >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM > To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Questions on > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi Vijay >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Questions on > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I have some basic questions, primarily trying to > understand the scope of this ID as well as the application=20 > behind such a > requirement. >=20 > 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric > Bandwidth requirement? >=20 > The postulation was that GMPLS today supports > bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a > bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical > TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates > setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like > many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an > implementation.) >=20 > So to your question besides bandwidth there is also > underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session=20 > procedures and > support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A > single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable)=20 > LSP. In other > words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed=20 > out this is > also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each > end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will=20 > acknowledge > the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the > technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and > there are efficiencies in a single session of a=20 > bi-directional LSP. On > the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the > asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple > sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D > ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) >=20 > | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP > Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? >=20 > With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow > bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate > RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session=20 > associated > with the primary bidirectional LSP. >=20 > 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make > sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) > and eventually signal them independently as well? >=20 >=20 > Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of > the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & > LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric > path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to > align. >=20 > 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse > flows to be on the same path? >=20 >=20 > That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my > case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data > plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that=20 > both require > bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to > support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and > bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. >=20 > 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this > in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? >=20 >=20 > Yes it is related. A shared resource link group > identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared=20 > paths have > shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths > have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the > shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common > resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. >=20 > Regards, > Don >=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Vijay >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 21:46:14 +0000 To: "Adrian Farrel" Cc: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Don Fedyk" , owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Pandian, Vijay" Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 22:44:40 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" adrian, all the point is not whether "We need asymmetrical bidirectional services" but "Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?" when i look at some of the examples that have been cited, it would surprise me that we would provision an LSP per micro-flow across the network (being Ethernet or whatever packet technology), even more, GMPLS is mostly used as an edge-to-edge technology in most cases, GMPLS capable devices do not even interact with the sources of traffic some where mentioning in their examples i am also reading that some Ethernet equipment are introducing several specific (data plane) constraints, indeed, but the control plane is not going to elevate those, in part. these constraints are independent whether one has unidirectional LSP, or asym bandwidth LSP provisioning capability at control plane level (adrian pointed this out numerous times but this is one of the cornerstone of the whole discussion) hence, the point since so far, is that they are no convincing argument in favor of an asymmetric LSP bandwidth provisioning WITHIN a single signaling exchange, indeed, most arguments are boiling down to hypothetical control plane efficiency that can be ensured by other means if we consider the restricting conditions where the proposed approach would be workable -d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 06/03/2007 12:05 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk" cc: Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs additional message exchanges. The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem to be beyond this debate. So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay, let me answer this. If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? Regards, Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. Regards, Don Regards, Vijay Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 19:49:47 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C76028.60F99471" Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:48:13 +0100 Message-ID: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E91B5834A@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] thread-index: AcdgB2D9Ae1SUgPlTI+XvANRWuNJWwAF8lHA From: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" To: "Igor Bryskin" , "Adrian Farrel" , "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk" Cc: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76028.60F99471 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Igor, =20 I think the point is on flexibility. If bandwidth is available with fine granularity one can leverage this in many cases. To add a new example: central office - branch office connectivity, in this scenario it seems to be likely to have the same recovery...etc requirements but different bw needs for up/down streams. =20 Regarding "fate sharing", as you specified, it depends on how one defines "a strong use case"...one may use diversely routed LSPs as well to provide bidirectional connection for, e.g., the above service, but with co routed LSPs issues may become simpler (like management, CP states, OAM,...).=20 =20 Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 4:52 PM To: Adrian Farrel; Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] =09 =09 Adrian, =09 I would define "fate sharing" very simply: it is the situation when both directions go through the same links at any time: after setup, protection switchover, recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane the bidirectional service where opposite directions fate-share we have some nice by-products: a) CP states for both directions could be always combined together with the summary state reduced in size; b) the management of both directions can be accomplished using a single exchange of signaling messages, This holds for initial setup, protection switchover, recovery, re-route c) number of RSVP refreshes also is half as much =09 My understanding is that we do like the notion of a symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet switched network layer. This is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to migrate from MPLS to GMPLS, and you. Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate of such migration. So, we don't mind an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM LABEL, UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL SET). =09 I have just one question to the authors of the draft: do we have a strong use case for a bidirectional service requiring the fate sharing (as I defined it above) of both directions and fully symmetrical (recovery requirements, colors, etc) apart from the bandwidth requirements? If the answer is yes, than I say I don't mind a copule of extra signaling objects. =09 Igor =09 =09 Adrian Farrel wrote:=20 Hi, =09 There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure=20 what problem we are trying to solve. =09 - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? =09 - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? =09 - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? =09 The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously=20 makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated=20 signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs=20 additional message exchanges. =09 The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements=20 of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not=20 guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is=20 not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can=20 be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might=20 only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. =09 End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem=20 to be beyond this debate. =09 =09 So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of=20 asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? =09 Adrian =09 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"=20 To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20 =09 Cc:=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi Vijay, =09 let me answer this. =09 If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. =09 Regards, Attila =09 ________________________________ =09 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 =09 Don, =09 The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). =09 So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? =09 Regards, =09 Vijay =09 =09 =09 -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi Vijay =09 =09 ________________________________ =09 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi, =09 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =09 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? =09 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =09 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =09 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? =09 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. =09 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? =09 =09 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. =09 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? =09 =09 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. =09 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? =09 =09 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. =09 Regards, Don =09 =09 Regards, =09 Vijay =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 ________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast =20 with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76028.60F99471 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 Igor,
 
I=20 think the point is on flexibility. If bandwidth is available with fine=20 granularity one can leverage this in many cases. To add a new = example:=20 central office - branch office connectivity, in this scenario it=20 seems to be likely to have the same recovery...etc requirements but = different bw needs for up/down streams.
 
Regarding "fate sharing", as you specified, it depends on how = one defines=20 "a strong use case"...one may use diversely routed LSPs as well to = provide=20 bidirectional connection for, e.g., the above service, but with co = routed LSPs=20 issues may become simpler (like management, CP states, OAM,...).=20
 
Regards,
Attila

From: Igor Bryskin=20 [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 = 4:52=20 PM
To: Adrian Farrel; Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, = Vijay; Don=20 Fedyk
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: What is = this=20 fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt]

Adrian,

I would define "fate sharing" very simply: = it is the=20 situation when both directions go through the same links at any time: = after=20 setup, protection switchover, recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane = the=20 bidirectional service where opposite directions fate-share we have = some nice=20 by-products:
a) CP states for both directions could be always = combined=20 together with the summary state reduced in size;
b) the management = of both=20 directions can be accomplished using a single exchange of signaling = messages,=20 This holds for initial setup, protection switchover, recovery, = re-route
c)=20 number of RSVP refreshes also is half as much

My understanding = is that=20 we do like the notion of a symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet = switched=20 network layer.  This is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to = migrate=20 from MPLS to GMPLS, and you. Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate = of such=20 migration. So, we don't mind an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM = LABEL,=20 UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL SET).

I have just one question to the = authors=20 of the draft: do we have a strong use case for a bidirectional service = requiring the fate sharing (as I defined it above) of both directions = and=20 fully symmetrical (recovery requirements, colors, etc) apart from the=20 bandwidth requirements? If the answer is yes, than I say I don't mind = a copule=20 of extra signaling objects.

Igor


Adrian Farrel = <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
Hi,

There=20 has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure =
what=20 problem we are trying to solve.

- Is this a data plane = feature where=20 a data plane fault in one
direction must cause data plane = interruption in=20 both directions?

- Is this a protection feature where the = switch-over=20 of one
direction to its backup path must be accompanied by=20 a
switch-over of the other direction, too?

- Is this a = control=20 plane feature where the removal of control
plane state in one = direction=20 must cause the removal of control
plane state in the other=20 direction?

The use of a single control plane state = (bidirectional=20 signaling) obviously
makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, = but the=20 use of associated
signaling does not preclude control plane fate = sharing=20 - it just needs
additional message exchanges.

The use of = an=20 identical path for both directions can provide some elements
of = data=20 plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not=20
guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. = This issue=20 is
not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the=20 directions can
be installed on the path by associated signaling, = and as=20 a failure might
only impact one direction in bidirectional=20 signaling.

End-to-end protection features are implemented at = a=20 different level and seem
to be beyond this debate.


So = I am=20 wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of=20
asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced = to:
- We=20 need asymmetrical bidirectional services
- Does the value of a = single=20 signaling exchange outweigh the
cost of new signaling objects and = procedures?

Adrian

----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"
To: = "Pandian,=20 Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20

Cc:
Sent: = Tuesday, March=20 06, 2007 10:34 AM
Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi Vijay,

let me = answer=20 this.

If you need different protection for each direction = then you=20 likely will
need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better = uses=20 separate
sessions for the two directions since all the benefits = of having=20 a
single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take=20 different
routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical = bandwidth=20 property
of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in=20 = RFC3471.

Regards,
Attila

_______________________________= _

From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] = On
Behalf Of=20 Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM
To: Don=20 Fedyk
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt



Don,

The = question I=20 had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one
direction = required=20 a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction
probably = required=20 some basic P&R (say Re-routing).

So the requirement is to = use the=20 same "physical link" for the
forward and reverse direction. Am I=20 right?

Regards,

Vijay



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]
Sent: = Monday,=20 March 05, 2007 6:41 PM
To: Pandian, Vijay; = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject:=20 RE: Questions on
draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi=20 Vijay


________________________________

From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
[mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of=20 Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM
To:=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions=20 on
draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi,

I have = some=20 basic questions, primarily trying to
understand the scope of this = ID as=20 well as the application behind such a
requirement.

1. Does = this ID=20 address just an asymmetric
Bandwidth requirement?

The = postulation=20 was that GMPLS today supports
bi-directional service with a = single=20 RSVP-TE session creating a
bidirectional LSP. The most common=20 implementation of this is Optical
TDM networks. Since this was = the=20 starting point, the ID postulates
setting up an asymmetric = service with a=20 single asymmetric LSP. (Like
many new drafts it sets a = requirement and=20 postulates a an
implementation.)

So to your question = besides=20 bandwidth there is also
underlying requirement to align with = GMPLS single=20 session procedures and
support a bi-directional packet data plane = as=20 Ethernet does today. A
single bidirectional (in this case = asymmetric BW=20 capable) LSP. In other
words a single RSVP-TE session. Several = people=20 have pointed out this is
also achievable with two unidirectional = RSVP-TE=20 sessions (one at each
end). Rather than reopen that debate on = this thread=20 I will acknowledge
the authors had a single session in mind more = as a=20 requirement of the
technology. Ethernet data forwarding is = bi-directional=20 symmetric and
there are efficiencies in a single session of a=20 bi-directional LSP. On
the other hand the issue is there is = currently no=20 way to specify the
asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros = and=20 cons of multiple
sessions versus single there is already a thread = on this=20 (RE: I-D
ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)

| 2. How = about=20 other attributes? in particular LSP
Protection & Recovery = (P&R)=20 related attributes?

With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to=20 allow
bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by=20 separate
RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE = session=20 associated
with the primary bidirectional LSP.

3. If = P&R are=20 indeed different, doesn't it make
sense to route them separately=20 (separate CSPF calculation at each end)
and eventually signal = them=20 independently as well?


Hopefully I addressed part of this = already. Recovery of
the bi-directional LSP could be handled by = another=20 RSVP-TE session &
LSP. The data plane in our case must have a = bi-directional symmetric
path so you can only do a CSPF at one = end and/or=20 force the paths to
align.

4. Is there a need for the = forward and=20 reverse
flows to be on the same path?


That is the way = an=20 Ethernet data plane works, and in my
case this is where the = requirement=20 comes from. There is Ethernet data
plane OAM and in some cases = Ethernet=20 forwarding rules that both require
bi-directional symmetric = paths. The=20 requirement is to be able to
support native Ethernet loopback and = data=20 plane trace functions and
bi-directional symmetry in the data = plane is=20 required.

5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find = this
in other=20 RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint = paths?


Yes it=20 is related. A shared resource link group
identifies shared = resources at=20 some granularity. Fate shared paths have
shared resources at a = very high=20 level of granularity. Disjoint paths
have none or very few shared = resources. For a bidirectional path the
shared fate comes from = the fact=20 that both direction have common
resources and if one fails the = other is=20 likely to=20 = fail.

Regards,
Don


Regards,

Vijay


=


Don't get soaked. Take a=20 quick peak at the forecast
with theYahoo!=20 Search weather shortcut. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76028.60F99471-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:39:01 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C76016.148731CC" Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:37:14 -0500 Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DE726EB@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: AcdgB1+pVqrAz8IKQMiWxO1Rz8IXUgAAH5qw From: "Don Fedyk" To: "Igor Bryskin" , "Adrian Farrel" , "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Pandian, Vijay" Cc: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76016.148731CC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Igor =20 Good points. Comments in line. ________________________________ From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:52 AM =09 =09 Adrian, =09 I would define "fate sharing" very simply: it is the situation when both directions go through the same links at any time: after setup, protection switchover, recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane the bidirectional service where opposite directions fate-share we have some nice by-products:=20 =20 =20 In Ethernet Bridging the "fate sharing" object is the to the level of ports on the bridge relay. Both direction of the path must pass through the Bridge relay. There may be link aggregation functions below this. So I would adjust your definition slightly to include same "link objects". =20 =20 a) CP states for both directions could be always combined together with the summary state reduced in size; b) the management of both directions can be accomplished using a single exchange of signaling messages, This holds for initial setup, protection switchover, recovery, re-route c) number of RSVP refreshes also is half as much =09 My understanding is that we do like the notion of a symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet switched network layer. This is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to migrate from MPLS to GMPLS, and you. Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate of such migration. So, we don't mind an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM LABEL, UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL SET). =09 I have just one question to the authors of the draft: do we have a strong use case for a bidirectional service requiring the fate sharing (as I defined it above) of both directions and fully symmetrical (recovery requirements, colors, etc) apart from the bandwidth requirements? If the answer is yes, than I say I don't mind a copule of extra signaling objects.=20 =20 We have a draft for GMPLS control of Ethernet PBB-TE which is an emerging L2 data plane. The Ethernet bridge relay function assumes bi-directionality. Ethernet data plane OAM is built on the bi-directional relay. IMHO in that context the answer to your question is yes. =20 =20 In fact I think the requirement for asymmetrical BW is just related to the fact we have a packet technology. (MPLS is no different).=20 The need for bi-directional fate sharing is from the requirements of the Ethernet Bridging Relay and our desire to leverage the Relay capabilities (this packet layer is different). =20 The use case cited for this requirement is the distribution of packet Video which may well be high BW in one direction and relatively small in the other but even my Internet connection is asymmetric today and I don't use it for video. So the use case applies to all kinds of of packet transport.=20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =09 Igor =09 =09 Adrian Farrel wrote: Hi, =09 There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure=20 what problem we are trying to solve. =09 - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? =09 - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? =09 - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? =09 The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously=20 makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated=20 signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs=20 additional message exchanges. =09 The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements=20 of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not=20 guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is=20 not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can=20 be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might=20 only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. =09 End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem=20 to be beyond this debate. =09 =09 So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of=20 asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? =09 Adrian =09 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"=20 To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20 =09 Cc:=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi Vijay, =09 let me answer this. =09 If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. =09 Regards, Attila =09 ________________________________ =09 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 =09 Don, =09 The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). =09 So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? =09 Regards, =09 Vijay =09 =09 =09 -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi Vijay =09 =09 ________________________________ =09 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi, =09 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =09 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? =09 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =09 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =09 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? =09 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. =09 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? =09 =09 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. =09 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? =09 =09 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. =09 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? =09 =09 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. =09 Regards, Don =09 =09 Regards, =09 Vijay =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 ________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast =20 with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76016.148731CC Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Igor
 
Good points.  Comments in=20 line.

From: Igor Bryskin=20 [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 = 10:52=20 AM

Adrian,

I would define "fate sharing" very simply: it is = the=20 situation when both directions go through the same links at any time: = after=20 setup, protection switchover, recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane = the=20 bidirectional service where opposite directions fate-share we have = some nice=20 by-products: 
 
 
In=20 Ethernet Bridging the "fate sharing" object is the to the level of ports = on the bridge relay.  Both direction of the path must = pass=20 through the Bridge relay. There may be link aggregation functions = below=20 this. So I would adjust your definition slightly to include same "link=20 objects". 
 
 
a) CP states = for both=20 directions could be always combined together with the summary state = reduced in=20 size;
b) the management of both directions can be accomplished = using a=20 single exchange of signaling messages, This holds for initial setup,=20 protection switchover, recovery, re-route
c) number of RSVP = refreshes also=20 is half as much

My understanding is that we do like the notion = of a=20 symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet switched network = layer.  This=20 is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to migrate from MPLS to GMPLS, = and you.=20 Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate of such migration. So, we = don't mind=20 an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM LABEL, UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL = SET).

I have just one question to the authors of the draft: do = we have=20 a strong use case for a bidirectional service requiring the fate = sharing (as I=20 defined it above) of both directions and fully symmetrical (recovery=20 requirements, colors, etc) apart from the bandwidth requirements? If = the=20 answer is yes, than I say I don't mind a copule of extra signaling=20 objects. 
 
We=20 have a draft for GMPLS control of Ethernet PBB-TE which is an emerging = L2 data=20 plane.  The Ethernet bridge relay function assumes = bi-directionality.=20 Ethernet data plane OAM is built on the bi-directional = relay.   IMHO=20 in that context the answer to your question is yes.   =20
 
In=20 fact I think the requirement for asymmetrical BW is just related to the = fact we=20 have a packet technology. (MPLS is no different). =
The=20 need for bi-directional fate sharing is from the requirements of the = Ethernet=20 Bridging Relay and our desire to leverage the Relay capabilities (this = packet=20 layer is different).  
The=20 use case cited for this requirement is the distribution of packet Video = which=20 may well be high BW in one direction and relatively small in the = other but=20 even my Internet connection is asymmetric today and I don't use it for = video. So=20 the use case applies to all kinds of of packet transport.=20
 
Regards,
Don=20

Igor


Adrian Farrel=20 <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
Hi,

There=20 has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure =
what=20 problem we are trying to solve.

- Is this a data plane = feature where=20 a data plane fault in one
direction must cause data plane = interruption in=20 both directions?

- Is this a protection feature where the = switch-over=20 of one
direction to its backup path must be accompanied by=20 a
switch-over of the other direction, too?

- Is this a = control=20 plane feature where the removal of control
plane state in one = direction=20 must cause the removal of control
plane state in the other=20 direction?

The use of a single control plane state = (bidirectional=20 signaling) obviously
makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, = but the=20 use of associated
signaling does not preclude control plane fate = sharing=20 - it just needs
additional message exchanges.

The use of = an=20 identical path for both directions can provide some elements
of = data=20 plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not=20
guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. = This issue=20 is
not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the=20 directions can
be installed on the path by associated signaling, = and as=20 a failure might
only impact one direction in bidirectional=20 signaling.

End-to-end protection features are implemented at = a=20 different level and seem
to be beyond this debate.


So = I am=20 wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of=20
asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced = to:
- We=20 need asymmetrical bidirectional services
- Does the value of a = single=20 signaling exchange outweigh the
cost of new signaling objects and = procedures?

Adrian

----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"
To: = "Pandian,=20 Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20

Cc:
Sent: = Tuesday, March=20 06, 2007 10:34 AM
Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi Vijay,

let me = answer=20 this.

If you need different protection for each direction = then you=20 likely will
need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better = uses=20 separate
sessions for the two directions since all the benefits = of having=20 a
single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take=20 different
routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical = bandwidth=20 property
of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in=20 = RFC3471.

Regards,
Attila

_______________________________= _

From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] = On
Behalf Of=20 Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM
To: Don=20 Fedyk
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt



Don,

The = question I=20 had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one
direction = required=20 a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction
probably = required=20 some basic P&R (say Re-routing).

So the requirement is to = use the=20 same "physical link" for the
forward and reverse direction. Am I=20 right?

Regards,

Vijay



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]
Sent: = Monday,=20 March 05, 2007 6:41 PM
To: Pandian, Vijay; = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject:=20 RE: Questions on
draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi=20 Vijay


________________________________

From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
[mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of=20 Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM
To:=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions=20 on
draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi,

I have = some=20 basic questions, primarily trying to
understand the scope of this = ID as=20 well as the application behind such a
requirement.

1. Does = this ID=20 address just an asymmetric
Bandwidth requirement?

The = postulation=20 was that GMPLS today supports
bi-directional service with a = single=20 RSVP-TE session creating a
bidirectional LSP. The most common=20 implementation of this is Optical
TDM networks. Since this was = the=20 starting point, the ID postulates
setting up an asymmetric = service with a=20 single asymmetric LSP. (Like
many new drafts it sets a = requirement and=20 postulates a an
implementation.)

So to your question = besides=20 bandwidth there is also
underlying requirement to align with = GMPLS single=20 session procedures and
support a bi-directional packet data plane = as=20 Ethernet does today. A
single bidirectional (in this case = asymmetric BW=20 capable) LSP. In other
words a single RSVP-TE session. Several = people=20 have pointed out this is
also achievable with two unidirectional = RSVP-TE=20 sessions (one at each
end). Rather than reopen that debate on = this thread=20 I will acknowledge
the authors had a single session in mind more = as a=20 requirement of the
technology. Ethernet data forwarding is = bi-directional=20 symmetric and
there are efficiencies in a single session of a=20 bi-directional LSP. On
the other hand the issue is there is = currently no=20 way to specify the
asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros = and=20 cons of multiple
sessions versus single there is already a thread = on this=20 (RE: I-D
ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)

| 2. How = about=20 other attributes? in particular LSP
Protection & Recovery = (P&R)=20 related attributes?

With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to=20 allow
bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by=20 separate
RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE = session=20 associated
with the primary bidirectional LSP.

3. If = P&R are=20 indeed different, doesn't it make
sense to route them separately=20 (separate CSPF calculation at each end)
and eventually signal = them=20 independently as well?


Hopefully I addressed part of this = already. Recovery of
the bi-directional LSP could be handled by = another=20 RSVP-TE session &
LSP. The data plane in our case must have a = bi-directional symmetric
path so you can only do a CSPF at one = end and/or=20 force the paths to
align.

4. Is there a need for the = forward and=20 reverse
flows to be on the same path?


That is the way = an=20 Ethernet data plane works, and in my
case this is where the = requirement=20 comes from. There is Ethernet data
plane OAM and in some cases = Ethernet=20 forwarding rules that both require
bi-directional symmetric = paths. The=20 requirement is to be able to
support native Ethernet loopback and = data=20 plane trace functions and
bi-directional symmetry in the data = plane is=20 required.

5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find = this
in other=20 RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint = paths?


Yes it=20 is related. A shared resource link group
identifies shared = resources at=20 some granularity. Fate shared paths have
shared resources at a = very high=20 level of granularity. Disjoint paths
have none or very few shared = resources. For a bidirectional path the
shared fate comes from = the fact=20 that both direction have common
resources and if one fails the = other is=20 likely to=20 = fail.

Regards,
Don


Regards,

Vijay


=


Don't get soaked. Take a=20 quick peak at the forecast
with theYahoo!=20 Search weather shortcut. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76016.148731CC-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:14:34 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C76012.B3D0B7AD" Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:13:04 -0000 Message-ID: <3C2E60A2B33F124A8A702388733BB60656E1AD@i2km99-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net> Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: AcdgB5MvNSkzhD01QDKkO201diGMVgACL7FA From: To: , , , , Cc: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76012.B3D0B7AD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Igor, =20 I can think of one good case. In CO mode layer networks the 2 key OAM messages are CV (Connectivity Verification) and BDI (Backward Defect Indication). These OAM messages should be present on the trails in each direction. The key purpose of BDI is to allow a single end to see the failure state of its outgoing direction, eg case of unidirectional connection failure. For this be of use in a link in a layer N network for a unidirectional failure of a trail in a layer N-1 network serving that link, one needs congruent bidirectional trail routings in both those layer networks.....and clearly this is a recursive requirement between any layers. =20 regards, Neil -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin Sent: 06 March 2007 15:52 To: Adrian Farrel; Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Adrian, I would define "fate sharing" very simply: it is the situation when both directions go through the same links at any time: after setup, protection switchover, recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane the bidirectional service where opposite directions fate-share we have some nice by-products: a) CP states for both directions could be always combined together with the summary state reduced in size; b) the management of both directions can be accomplished using a single exchange of signaling messages, This holds for initial setup, protection switchover, recovery, re-route c) number of RSVP refreshes also is half as much My understanding is that we do like the notion of a symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet switched network layer. This is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to migrate from MPLS to GMPLS, and you. Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate of such migration. So, we don't mind an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM LABEL, UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL SET). I have just one question to the authors of the draft: do we have a strong use case for a bidirectional service requiring the fate sharing (as I defined it above) of both directions and fully symmetrical (recovery requirements, colors, etc) apart from the bandwidth requirements? If the answer is yes, than I say I don't mind a copule of extra signaling objects. Igor Adrian Farrel wrote:=20 Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure=20 what problem we are trying to solve. - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously=20 makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated=20 signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs=20 additional message exchanges. The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements=20 of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is=20 not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can=20 be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem=20 to be beyond this debate. So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of=20 asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? Adrian ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"=20 To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20 Cc:=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay, let me answer this. If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? Regards, Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. Regards, Don Regards, Vijay _____ =20 Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast=20 with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76012.B3D0B7AD Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Igor,
 
I can think of one good case.  In CO mode layer networks = the 2 key=20 OAM messages are CV (Connectivity Verification) and BDI (Backward Defect = Indication).  These OAM messages should be present on the = trails in=20 each direction.  The key purpose of BDI is to allow a single end to = see the=20 failure state of its outgoing direction, eg case of unidirectional=20 connection failure.  For this be of use in a link in a layer N = network for=20 a unidirectional failure of a trail in a layer N-1 network serving that = link,=20 one needs congruent bidirectional trail routings in both those layer=20 networks.....and clearly this is a recursive requirement between any=20 layers.
 
regards, Neil
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of=20 Igor Bryskin
Sent: 06 March 2007 15:52
To: = Adrian=20 Farrel; Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don = Fedyk
Cc:=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing = thing?=20 [Was: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt]

Adrian,

I = would=20 define "fate sharing" very simply: it is the situation when both = directions go=20 through the same links at any time: after setup, protection = switchover,=20 recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane the bidirectional service = where=20 opposite directions fate-share we have some nice by-products:
a) CP = states=20 for both directions could be always combined together with the summary = state=20 reduced in size;
b) the management of both directions can be = accomplished=20 using a single exchange of signaling messages, This holds for initial = setup,=20 protection switchover, recovery, re-route
c) number of RSVP = refreshes also=20 is half as much

My understanding is that we do like the notion = of a=20 symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet switched network = layer.  This=20 is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to migrate from MPLS to GMPLS, = and you.=20 Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate of such migration. So, we = don't mind=20 an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM LABEL, UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL = SET).

I have just one question to the authors of the draft: do = we have=20 a strong use case for a bidirectional service requiring the fate = sharing (as I=20 defined it above) of both directions and fully symmetrical (recovery=20 requirements, colors, etc) apart from the bandwidth requirements? If = the=20 answer is yes, than I say I don't mind a copule of extra signaling=20 objects.

Igor


Adrian Farrel=20 <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
Hi,

There=20 has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure =
what=20 problem we are trying to solve.

- Is this a data plane = feature where=20 a data plane fault in one
direction must cause data plane = interruption in=20 both directions?

- Is this a protection feature where the = switch-over=20 of one
direction to its backup path must be accompanied by=20 a
switch-over of the other direction, too?

- Is this a = control=20 plane feature where the removal of control
plane state in one = direction=20 must cause the removal of control
plane state in the other=20 direction?

The use of a single control plane state = (bidirectional=20 signaling) obviously
makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, = but the=20 use of associated
signaling does not preclude control plane fate = sharing=20 - it just needs
additional message exchanges.

The use of = an=20 identical path for both directions can provide some elements
of = data=20 plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not=20
guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. = This issue=20 is
not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the=20 directions can
be installed on the path by associated signaling, = and as=20 a failure might
only impact one direction in bidirectional=20 signaling.

End-to-end protection features are implemented at = a=20 different level and seem
to be beyond this debate.


So = I am=20 wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of=20
asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced = to:
- We=20 need asymmetrical bidirectional services
- Does the value of a = single=20 signaling exchange outweigh the
cost of new signaling objects and = procedures?

Adrian

----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"
To: = "Pandian,=20 Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20

Cc:
Sent: = Tuesday, March=20 06, 2007 10:34 AM
Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi Vijay,

let me = answer=20 this.

If you need different protection for each direction = then you=20 likely will
need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better = uses=20 separate
sessions for the two directions since all the benefits = of having=20 a
single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take=20 different
routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical = bandwidth=20 property
of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in=20 = RFC3471.

Regards,
Attila

_______________________________= _

From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] = On
Behalf Of=20 Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM
To: Don=20 Fedyk
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt



Don,

The = question I=20 had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one
direction = required=20 a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction
probably = required=20 some basic P&R (say Re-routing).

So the requirement is to = use the=20 same "physical link" for the
forward and reverse direction. Am I=20 right?

Regards,

Vijay



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]
Sent: = Monday,=20 March 05, 2007 6:41 PM
To: Pandian, Vijay; = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject:=20 RE: Questions on
draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi=20 Vijay


________________________________

From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
[mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of=20 Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM
To:=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions=20 on
draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi,

I have = some=20 basic questions, primarily trying to
understand the scope of this = ID as=20 well as the application behind such a
requirement.

1. Does = this ID=20 address just an asymmetric
Bandwidth requirement?

The = postulation=20 was that GMPLS today supports
bi-directional service with a = single=20 RSVP-TE session creating a
bidirectional LSP. The most common=20 implementation of this is Optical
TDM networks. Since this was = the=20 starting point, the ID postulates
setting up an asymmetric = service with a=20 single asymmetric LSP. (Like
many new drafts it sets a = requirement and=20 postulates a an
implementation.)

So to your question = besides=20 bandwidth there is also
underlying requirement to align with = GMPLS single=20 session procedures and
support a bi-directional packet data plane = as=20 Ethernet does today. A
single bidirectional (in this case = asymmetric BW=20 capable) LSP. In other
words a single RSVP-TE session. Several = people=20 have pointed out this is
also achievable with two unidirectional = RSVP-TE=20 sessions (one at each
end). Rather than reopen that debate on = this thread=20 I will acknowledge
the authors had a single session in mind more = as a=20 requirement of the
technology. Ethernet data forwarding is = bi-directional=20 symmetric and
there are efficiencies in a single session of a=20 bi-directional LSP. On
the other hand the issue is there is = currently no=20 way to specify the
asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros = and=20 cons of multiple
sessions versus single there is already a thread = on this=20 (RE: I-D
ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)

| 2. How = about=20 other attributes? in particular LSP
Protection & Recovery = (P&R)=20 related attributes?

With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to=20 allow
bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by=20 separate
RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE = session=20 associated
with the primary bidirectional LSP.

3. If = P&R are=20 indeed different, doesn't it make
sense to route them separately=20 (separate CSPF calculation at each end)
and eventually signal = them=20 independently as well?


Hopefully I addressed part of this = already. Recovery of
the bi-directional LSP could be handled by = another=20 RSVP-TE session &
LSP. The data plane in our case must have a = bi-directional symmetric
path so you can only do a CSPF at one = end and/or=20 force the paths to
align.

4. Is there a need for the = forward and=20 reverse
flows to be on the same path?


That is the way = an=20 Ethernet data plane works, and in my
case this is where the = requirement=20 comes from. There is Ethernet data
plane OAM and in some cases = Ethernet=20 forwarding rules that both require
bi-directional symmetric = paths. The=20 requirement is to be able to
support native Ethernet loopback and = data=20 plane trace functions and
bi-directional symmetry in the data = plane is=20 required.

5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find = this
in other=20 RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint = paths?


Yes it=20 is related. A shared resource link group
identifies shared = resources at=20 some granularity. Fate shared paths have
shared resources at a = very high=20 level of granularity. Disjoint paths
have none or very few shared = resources. For a bidirectional path the
shared fate comes from = the fact=20 that both direction have common
resources and if one fails the = other is=20 likely to=20 = fail.

Regards,
Don


Regards,

Vijay


=


Don't get soaked. Take a=20 quick peak at the forecast
with theYahoo!=20 Search weather shortcut. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C76012.B3D0B7AD-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:56:20 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 10:55:28 -0500 Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DE723C8@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: Acdf32hi2ZbJp61YSn6x64KVRZdvKwAGSKBw From: "Don Fedyk" To: "Adrian Farrel" , "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Pandian, Vijay" Cc: Hi Adrian In an Ethernet bridging context I'll try to add what I know.=20 > -----Original Message----- From: Adrian Farrel > [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 > 6:05 AM To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Fedyk, > Don (BL60:1A00) Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: What is > this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] >=20 > Hi, >=20 > There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" > and I am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. >=20 > - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in > one direction must cause data plane interruption in both > directions? [DF]When we say data plane I suppose it depends on the Physical layer as well. I'm not much of an expert on physical layers but I believe we went over much of this in the GMPLS control of optical.=20 For Ethernet bridging, if there is a fault detected in one direction the OAM signals the fault and at a minimum an alarm is raised. I don't believe there is an immediate attempt to interupt data but one result may be to use the indication or activate protection or restoration mechanisms.=20 In Ethernet bridging the Bridge Relay is a bi-drectional functions=20 that is attached to two ports. (below the ports there may be=20 unidirectional links).=20 =20 >=20 > - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of > one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a > switch-over of the other direction, too? [DF]In Ethernet this is the case. Unidirectional Ethernet would not support many Ethernet features.=20 >=20 > - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of > control plane state in one direction must cause the > removal of control plane state in the other direction? [DF]I don't know if I can parse this. "removal of control plane state in one direction in a bidirectional LSP?" I think you may be refering to the case where two RSVP-TE sessions control a single bi-directional path. The point is the data plane should not be unidirectionally active since this would create issues with OAM functions that assume a bidirectional data plane. =20 >=20 > The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional > signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing > automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not > preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs > additional message exchanges. [DF]True but in the case of associated case there is also a concept of a master and slave relationship between the associated signaling paths for any given action. This requires new capability as well. >=20 > The use of an identical path for both directions can > provide some elements of data plane fate sharing, but it > is important to note that it does not guarantee it. For > example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is > not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as > the directions can be installed on the path by associated > signaling, and as a failure might only impact one > direction in bidirectional signaling. [DF]The bi-directional aspects are at the L2 Ethernet bridge level. Unidirectional faults are detected as loss of Connectivity check messages or the like and declared the ethernet LSP in fault. What action is taken depends on the choice of configuration and control plane. >=20 > End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different=20 > level and seem to be beyond this debate. [DF]There could be an association object to implement some aspects of co-ordination between a primary and a backup LSP. >=20 >=20 > So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the > discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion > has reduced to: > - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services=20 > - Does the value of a single signaling exchange > outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? [DF]The fate sharing aspect is related to the Ethernet bi-directionality. We need bi-directional Ethernet LSPs=20 with (symmetric or asymmetric BW). This requirement is stronger=20 than your first point. Perhaps Fate sharing is not the right or the best term. My understanding of Ethernet is a typically a Spanning tree creates the bi-directional Ethernet paths that have these properties. You can also configure static Ethernet paths that have the same properties.=20 Regards, Don=20 >=20 > Adrian >=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:53:01 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=53Xw/HaGi3X0IvhTmSpycQvoD41ozge98JXBJ2TTta0zU6EPBVKNbzNe4E/oDlvKdjaGuHXRzLAMBnSAa1yOr80pCXILSuxjm8UF5LnCrJe5Bar92q0gsieTmYr8U0YdzcUngoze0ni5I+eCCHIOU2bzJyUS2xWdjyYf3RiMcWI=; Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:51:53 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] To: Adrian Farrel , "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Pandian, Vijay" , Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-509371772-1173196313=:8128" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <555335.8128.qm@web36802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --0-509371772-1173196313=:8128 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adrian, I would define "fate sharing" very simply: it is the situation when both directions go through the same links at any time: after setup, protection switchover, recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane the bidirectional service where opposite directions fate-share we have some nice by-products: a) CP states for both directions could be always combined together with the summary state reduced in size; b) the management of both directions can be accomplished using a single exchange of signaling messages, This holds for initial setup, protection switchover, recovery, re-route c) number of RSVP refreshes also is half as much My understanding is that we do like the notion of a symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet switched network layer. This is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to migrate from MPLS to GMPLS, and you. Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate of such migration. So, we don't mind an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM LABEL, UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL SET). I have just one question to the authors of the draft: do we have a strong use case for a bidirectional service requiring the fate sharing (as I defined it above) of both directions and fully symmetrical (recovery requirements, colors, etc) apart from the bandwidth requirements? If the answer is yes, than I say I don't mind a copule of extra signaling objects. Igor Adrian Farrel wrote: Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs additional message exchanges. The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem to be beyond this debate. So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay, let me answer this. If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? Regards, Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. Regards, Don Regards, Vijay --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. --0-509371772-1173196313=:8128 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adrian,

I would define "fate sharing" very simply: it is the situation when both directions go through the same links at any time: after setup, protection switchover, recovery, reroute, etc. In control plane the bidirectional service where opposite directions fate-share we have some nice by-products:
a) CP states for both directions could be always combined together with the summary state reduced in size;
b) the management of both directions can be accomplished using a single exchange of signaling messages, This holds for initial setup, protection switchover, recovery, re-route
c) number of RSVP refreshes also is half as much

My understanding is that we do like the notion of a symmetrical bidirectional LSP in a packet switched network layer.  This is a (I'd say big) reason why we want to migrate from MPLS to GMPLS, and you. Adrian, I believe is still a big advocate of such migration. So, we don't mind an extra complexity (such as UPSTREAM LABEL, UPSTREAM ACCEPTABLE LABEL SET).

I have just one question to the authors of the draft: do we have a strong use case for a bidirectional service requiring the fate sharing (as I defined it above) of both directions and fully symmetrical (recovery requirements, colors, etc) apart from the bandwidth requirements? If the answer is yes, than I say I don't mind a copule of extra signaling objects.

Igor


Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
Hi,

There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure
what problem we are trying to solve.

- Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one
direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions?

- Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one
direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a
switch-over of the other direction, too?

- Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control
plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control
plane state in the other direction?

The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously
makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated
signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs
additional message exchanges.

The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements
of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not
guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is
not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can
be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might
only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling.

End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem
to be beyond this debate.


So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of
asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to:
- We need asymmetrical bidirectional services
- Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the
cost of new signaling objects and procedures?

Adrian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"
To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"

Cc:
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi Vijay,

let me answer this.

If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will
need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate
sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a
single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different
routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property
of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471.

Regards,
Attila

________________________________

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM
To: Don Fedyk
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt



Don,

The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one
direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction
probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing).

So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the
forward and reverse direction. Am I right?

Regards,

Vijay



-----Original Message-----
From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM
To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on
draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi Vijay


________________________________

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
[mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM
To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions on
draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi,

I have some basic questions, primarily trying to
understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a
requirement.

1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric
Bandwidth requirement?

The postulation was that GMPLS today supports
bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a
bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical
TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates
setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like
many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an
implementation.)

So to your question besides bandwidth there is also
underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and
support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A
single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other
words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is
also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each
end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge
the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the
technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and
there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On
the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the
asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple
sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D
ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)

| 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP
Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes?

With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow
bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate
RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated
with the primary bidirectional LSP.

3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make
sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end)
and eventually signal them independently as well?


Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of
the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session &
LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric
path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to
align.

4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse
flows to be on the same path?


That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my
case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data
plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require
bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to
support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and
bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required.

5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this
in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?


Yes it is related. A shared resource link group
identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have
shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths
have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the
shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common
resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail.

Regards,
Don


Regards,

Vijay





Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. --0-509371772-1173196313=:8128-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:41:10 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFD.6668A822" Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:41:00 +0100 Message-ID: <0428AC48A879ED46A94F39D5665DF6844D8CCF@esealmw110.eemea.ericsson.se> Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdfWXhdZgmxmErtRe6bByz18y7HMAAFjIQwAAV27PAAFRNYMAAA99uQAAcoNAAAAKEv8A== From: "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" To: "Pandian, Vijay" , "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Don Fedyk" Cc: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFD.6668A822 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Vijay, Please see in line. =20 Best regards =20 Diego =20 ________________________________ From: Pandian, Vijay [mailto:Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com]=20 Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo 2007 15.36 To: Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI); Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =20 Hi Diego, =20 Even for point 1.3, it is not clear why the two directions of this LSP = needs to be on the same (physical?) path. [dc] I not saying that they must be on or need to be on the same path in = order to work. I'm saying if there is a requirement to have upstream = and downstream on the same path then.... =20 I may not understand the IpTv application, but isn't it true that the = direction where you need a small bandwidth probably is used to send = control messages such as "channel change" etc... In that case, doesn't = it make sense to use a completely different path with a different QoS = for a efficient network resource utilization? =20 Assuming that we end up treating each direction as independent sessions, = can we use the GMPLS-CALL ID to correlate the two connections? I assume = the intermediate nodes don't care about such an "ASSOCIATEION". [dc] Yes=20 =20 Regards, =20 Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI) [mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 6:30 AM To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Guys, let me try to summarize what we have said so far: 1. 1 The basic idea behind the ID is based on some facts = (I hope we all agree that are facts :-)); 2. 1.1 Ethernet services are (likely) bidirectional with = asymmetric bandwidth; 3. 1.2 GMPLS now allows to set-up bi-directional LSP with = symmetrical bandwidth; 4. 1.3 If, with the existing protocols, there is the need to = set-up a bi-directional service with asymmetric bandwidth requirement = (e.g. IpTv) and with upstream and downstream path that follow the same = route we have to signal two different LSPs using the RRO of the first = one as strict ERO for the second one. If we also want to bind the two = LSPs in order to identify them as part of the same service we can use = the ASSOCIATON obj (modified I suppose) 5. 1.4 Likely (I would say very likely) the NMS that requests = the LSP(s) set-up knows in advance the bandwidth needed in the two = directions. So we are in a different situation w.r.t. the original RSVP = situation. We have all the information we need to set-up the LSP at the = Path processing 6. Now if all of we are happy with point 1.3 then we = have finished. If someone think that is better to have the possibility = to set-up and identify a bidirectional service with a single LSP then = the ID have reason to exists at least for discussion :-). 7. IMHO having the possibility to set-up the LSP at = the path processing speed up the service establishment and this is = particularly useful in case of LSP rerouting in case of failure. In = fact if the service is made of the two LSP what could happens is the = first one can be set-up and the second one fails during signaling this = means that first one have to be deleted and two LSP path recomputed and = re-signaled. =20 8. Best Regards 9. =20 10. Diego =20 11. =20 =20 =09 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH) Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo 2007 11.35 To: Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =20 Hi Vijay, =20 let me answer this.=20 =20 If you need different protection for each direction then you likely = will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate = sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a = single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different = routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property = of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. =20 Regards, Attila =20 =09 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, =20 The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one = direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction = probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). =20 So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward = and reverse direction. Am I right? =20 Regards, =20 Vijay =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay =20 =09 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, =20 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the = scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =20 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?=20 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service = with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most = common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was = the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service = with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a = requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =20 =20 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying = requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a = bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single = bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words = a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also = achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). = Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the = authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the = technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and = there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On = the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the = asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple = sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =20 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & = Recovery (P&R) related attributes?=20 =20 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional = Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in = separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary = bidirectional LSP. =20 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them = separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal = them independently as well?=20 =20 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the = bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. = The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so = you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align.=20 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the = same path?=20 =20 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is = where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and = in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional = symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native = Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional = symmetry in the data plane is required.=20 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or = IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?=20 =20 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared = resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources = at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very = few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes = from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails = the other is likely to fail. =20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =20 Regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFD.6668A822 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Vijay,

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Please see = in line.

 

Best regards

 

Diego

 

From: = Pandian, Vijay [mailto:Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com]
Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo = 2007 15.36
To: Diego Caviglia = (GA/ERI); Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Don Fedyk
Cc: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

 

Hi Diego,

 

Even for point 1.3, it is not clear why the two = directions of this LSP needs to be on the same (physical?) path.

[dc] I not saying that they must be on or need to be = on the same path in order to work. =A0I’m saying if there is a = requirement to have upstream and downstream on the same path = then….

 

=A0I may not understand the IpTv application, but = isn't it true that the direction where you need a small bandwidth probably is = used to send control messages such as "channel change" etc... In that case, doesn't it make sense to use a completely different path = with a different QoS for a efficient network resource = utilization?

 

Assuming that we end up treating each direction = as independent sessions, can we use the  GMPLS-CALL ID to = correlate the two connections? I assume the intermediate nodes don't care about such = an "ASSOCIATEION".

[dc] Yes

 

Regards,

 

Vijay

-----Original = Message-----
From: Diego Caviglia = (GA/ERI) [mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, = 2007 6:30 AM
To: Attila Takacs = (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk
Cc: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Guys,

         let = me try to summarize what we have said so far:

1.       1         The basic = idea behind the ID is based on some facts (I hope we all agree that are facts = J);

2.      = 1.1      Ethernet services are (likely) bidirectional with = asymmetric bandwidth;

3.      = 1.2      GMPLS now allows to set-up bi-directional LSP with symmetrical bandwidth;

4.      = 1.3      If, with the existing protocols, there is the need = to set-up a bi-directional service with asymmetric bandwidth requirement (e.g. = IpTv) and with upstream and downstream path that follow the same route we have to = signal two different LSPs using the RRO of the first one as strict ERO for the = second one.  If we also want to bind the two LSPs in order to identify = them as part of the same service we can use the ASSOCIATON obj (modified I = suppose)

5.      = 1.4      Likely (I would say very likely) the NMS that = requests the LSP(s) set-up knows in advance the bandwidth needed in the two = directions.  So we are in a different situation w.r.t. the original RSVP situation.  We have all the information we need to set-up the LSP = at the Path processing

6.           = ;       Now if all of we are happy with point 1.3 then we = have finished.  If someone think that is better to have the possibility = to set-up and identify a bidirectional service with a single LSP then the = ID have reason to exists at least for discussion J.

7.           = ;       IMHO having the possibility to set-up the LSP at = the path processing speed up the service establishment and this is particularly = useful in case of LSP rerouting in case of failure.  In fact if the = service is made of the two LSP what could happens is the first one can be set-up = and the second one fails during signaling this means that first one have to be = deleted and two LSP path recomputed and re-signaled.  =

8.           = ;       Best Regards

9.           = ;         

=

10.           = ;   Diego  

11.           = ;     

=

 

From: = owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)
Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo = 2007 11.35
To: Pandian, Vijay; Don = Fedyk
Cc: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

 

Hi Vijay,

 

let me answer this.

 

If you need different protection for each direction = then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses = separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a = single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different = routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in = RFC3471.

 

Regards,

Attila

 

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, = 2007 1:36 AM
To: Don Fedyk
Cc: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Don,

 

The question I had regarding P&R was trying to = figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing).

 

So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I = right?

 

Regards,

 

Vijay

 

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, = 2007 6:41 PM
To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi Vijay

 

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Monday, March 05, = 2007 2:07 PM
To: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi,

 

I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of = this ID as well as the application behind such a = requirement.

 

1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? 

The postulation was that GMPLS today supports = bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional = LSP.  The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM = networks.  Since this was the starting point, the ID = postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric = LSP.  (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.)  

 

So to your question besides = bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session = procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today.  = A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP.  In = other words a single RSVP-TE session.  Several people have pointed out = this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end).  Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will = acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of = the technology.  Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric = and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional = LSP.  On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the = asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus = single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)

 

| =  2. How about other attributes? = in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related = attributes? 

 

With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by = separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session = associated with the primary bidirectional LSP.   

3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense = to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? 

 

Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery = of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & = LSP.  The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so = you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to = align. 

4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same = path? 

 

That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in = my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane = OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths.  The requirement is to be able to support native = Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in = the data plane is required.

5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or = IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? 

 

Yes it is related.  A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have = shared resources at a very high level of granularity.  Disjoint paths = have none or very few shared resources.  For a bidirectional path = the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common = resources and if one fails the other is likely to = fail.    

 

Regards,

Don

 

Regards,

 

Vijay

------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFD.6668A822-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:36:17 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFC.B542D7E0" Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:35:38 -0500 Message-ID: <0679BA70A2F59E49B186858B47F4595C010080EF@viper.sycamorenet.com> Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdfWXhdZgmxmErtRe6bByz18y7HMAAFjIQwAAV27PAAFRNYMAAA99uQAAcoNAA= From: "Pandian, Vijay" To: "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" , "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Don Fedyk" Cc: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFC.B542D7E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Diego, =20 Even for point 1.3, it is not clear why the two directions of this LSP = needs to be on the same (physical?) path. I may not understand the IpTv = application, but isn't it true that the direction where you need a small = bandwidth probably is used to send control messages such as "channel = change" etc... In that case, doesn't it make sense to use a completely = different path with a different QoS for a efficient network resource = utilization? =20 Assuming that we end up treating each direction as independent sessions, = can we use the GMPLS-CALL ID to correlate the two connections? I assume = the intermediate nodes don't care about such an "ASSOCIATEION". =20 Regards, =20 Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI) [mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 6:30 AM To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Guys, let me try to summarize what we have said so far: 1 The basic idea behind the ID is based on some facts (I hope we = all agree that are facts :-)); 1.1 Ethernet services are (likely) bidirectional with asymmetric = bandwidth; 1.2 GMPLS now allows to set-up bi-directional LSP with symmetrical = bandwidth; 1.3 If, with the existing protocols, there is the need to set-up a = bi-directional service with asymmetric bandwidth requirement (e.g. IpTv) = and with upstream and downstream path that follow the same route we have = to signal two different LSPs using the RRO of the first one as strict = ERO for the second one. If we also want to bind the two LSPs in order = to identify them as part of the same service we can use the ASSOCIATON = obj (modified I suppose) 1.4 Likely (I would say very likely) the NMS that requests the = LSP(s) set-up knows in advance the bandwidth needed in the two = directions. So we are in a different situation w.r.t. the original RSVP = situation. We have all the information we need to set-up the LSP at the = Path processing Now if all of we are happy with point 1.3 then we have finished. If = someone think that is better to have the possibility to set-up and = identify a bidirectional service with a single LSP then the ID have = reason to exists at least for discussion :-). IMHO having the possibility to set-up the LSP at the path processing = speed up the service establishment and this is particularly useful in = case of LSP rerouting in case of failure. In fact if the service is = made of the two LSP what could happens is the first one can be set-up = and the second one fails during signaling this means that first one have = to be deleted and two LSP path recomputed and re-signaled. =20 Best Regards =20 Diego =20 =20 =20 _____ =20 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH) Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo 2007 11.35 To: Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =20 Hi Vijay, =20 let me answer this.=20 =20 If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will = need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate = sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a = single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different = routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property = of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. =20 Regards, Attila =20 _____ =20 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, =20 The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one = direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction = probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). =20 So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward = and reverse direction. Am I right? =20 Regards, =20 Vijay =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay =20 _____ =20 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, =20 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of = this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =20 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?=20 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service = with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most = common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was = the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service = with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a = requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =20 =20 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying = requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a = bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single = bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words = a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also = achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). = Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the = authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the = technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and = there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On = the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the = asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple = sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =20 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & = Recovery (P&R) related attributes?=20 =20 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection = or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate = from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary = bidirectional LSP. =20 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them = separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal = them independently as well?=20 =20 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the = bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. = The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so = you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align.=20 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same = path?=20 =20 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is = where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and = in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional = symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native = Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional = symmetry in the data plane is required.=20 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is = it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?=20 =20 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared = resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources = at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very = few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes = from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails = the other is likely to fail. =20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =20 Regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFC.B542D7E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 Diego,
 
Even=20 for point 1.3, it is not clear why the two directions of this LSP needs = to be on=20 the same (physical?) path. I may not understand the IpTv application, = but isn't=20 it true that the direction where you need a small bandwidth probably is = used to=20 send control messages such as "channel change" etc... In that = case, doesn't=20 it make sense to use a completely different path with a different = QoS for a=20 efficient network resource utilization?
 
Assuming that we end up treating each direction as = independent=20 sessions, can we use the  GMPLS-CALL ID to correlate the two=20 connections? I assume the intermediate nodes don't care about such an=20 "ASSOCIATEION".
 
Regards,
 
Vijay
-----Original Message-----
From: Diego Caviglia = (GA/ERI)=20 [mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March = 06, 2007=20 6:30 AM
To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don=20 Fedyk
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: = Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Guys,

        =20 let me try to summarize what we have said so = far:

1        =20 The basic idea behind the ID is based on some = facts (I=20 hope we all agree that are facts J);

1.1     =20 Ethernet services are (likely) bidirectional = with=20 asymmetric bandwidth;

1.2     =20 GMPLS now allows to set-up bi-directional LSP = with=20 symmetrical bandwidth;

1.3     =20 If, with the existing protocols, there is the = need to=20 set-up a bi-directional service with asymmetric bandwidth requirement = (e.g.=20 IpTv) and with upstream and downstream path that follow the same route = we have=20 to signal two different LSPs using the RRO of the first one as strict = ERO for=20 the second one.  If we also want to bind the two LSPs in order to = identify them as part of the same service we can use the ASSOCIATON = obj=20 (modified I suppose)

1.4     =20 Likely (I would say very likely) the NMS that = requests the=20 LSP(s) set-up knows in advance the bandwidth needed in the two = directions.=20  So we are in a different situation w.r.t. the original RSVP=20 situation.  We have all the information we need to set-up the LSP = at the=20 Path processing

Now = if all of we=20 are happy with point 1.3 then we have finished.  If someone think = that is=20 better to have the possibility to set-up and identify a bidirectional = service=20 with a single LSP then the ID have reason to exists at least for = discussion=20 J.

IMHO having the=20 possibility to set-up the LSP at the path processing speed up the = service=20 establishment and this is particularly useful in case of LSP rerouting = in case=20 of failure.  In fact if the service is made of the two LSP what = could=20 happens is the first one can be set-up and the second one fails during = signaling this means that first one have to be deleted and two LSP = path=20 recomputed and re-signaled. 

Best=20 Regards

 

Diego=20  

 

 

From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Attila Takacs=20 (IJ/ETH)
Sent: = marted=EC 6=20 marzo 2007 11.35
To: Pandian,=20 Vijay; Don Fedyk
Cc:=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject:=20 RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

 

Hi=20 Vijay,

 

let me answer this.=20

 

If you need different = protection for each=20 direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this = case one=20 better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the = benefits of=20 having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take = different=20 routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical = bandwidth=20 property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in=20 RFC3471.

 

Regards,

Attila

 

From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, = Vijay
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 = 1:36=20 AM
To: Don = Fedyk
Cc: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Don,

 

The question I had regarding = P&R=20 was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R = (say=20 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some = basic=20 P&R (say Re-routing).

 

So the requirement is to use = the same=20 "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I=20 right?

 

Regards,

 

Vijay

 

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Don=20 Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, = 2007 6:41=20 PM
To: Pandian, = Vijay;=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi = Vijay

 

From:=20 owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Pandian,=20 Vijay
Sent: = Monday,=20 March 05, 2007 2:07 PM
To: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi,

 

I have some basic questions, primarily = trying to=20 understand the scope of this ID as well as the application = behind such a=20 requirement.

 

1. Does this ID address just an = asymmetric=20 Bandwidth requirement? 

The postulation was that = GMPLS today=20 supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session = creating a=20 bidirectional LSP.  The most common implementation of this is = Optical=20 TDM networks. =20 Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an = asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP.  (Like = many new=20 drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an=20 = implementation.)  

 

So to your question besides = bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align = with=20 GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional = packet data=20 plane as Ethernet does today.  A single bidirectional (in = this case=20 asymmetric BW capable) LSP.  In other words a single RSVP-TE=20 session.  Several people have pointed out this is also = achievable=20 with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end).  = Rather=20 than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the=20 authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of = the=20 technology.  Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional = symmetric and=20 there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional = LSP. =20 On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to = specify the=20 asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of = multiple=20 sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D=20 = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)

 

|=20  2. How about other = attributes? in=20 particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related=20 attributes? 

 

With respect to GMPLS, the = plan was=20 to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs = controlled by=20 separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE = session=20 associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. =   

3. If P&R are indeed=20 different, doesn't it make sense to route them = separately=20 (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and = eventually signal them=20 independently as well? 

 

Hopefully I addressed part = of this=20 already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by = another=20 RSVP-TE session & LSP.  The data plane in our case must = have a=20 bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end = and/or=20 force the paths to align. 

4. Is there a need for the forward and = reverse=20 flows to be on the same path? 

 

That is the way an Ethernet = data=20 plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes = from.=20 There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet = forwarding=20 rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths.  The=20 requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and = data=20 plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data = plane is=20 required.

5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't = find this=20 in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint = paths? 

 

Yes it is related.  A = shared=20 resource link group identifies shared resources at some = granularity. Fate=20 shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of=20 granularity.  Disjoint paths have none or very few = shared=20 resources.  For a bidirectional path the shared fate = comes from=20 the fact that both direction have common resources and if one = fails the=20 other is likely to fail.    

 

Regards,

Don=20

 

Regards,

 

Vijay

<= /BLOCKQUOTE>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FFC.B542D7E0-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:45:14 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE4.D1CD0D9C" Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:45:04 +0100 Message-ID: <0428AC48A879ED46A94F39D5665DF6844D8C22@esealmw110.eemea.ericsson.se> Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Thread-Index: Acdf4JWp/jby+ZTyRFu1PwDQ0CiX5QAAjl+w From: "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" To: "Adrian Farrel" , "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk" Cc: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE4.D1CD0D9C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Adrian, Some comments in line Best Regards Diego -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo 2007 12.05 To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on = draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not = sure=20 what problem we are trying to solve. [dc] As usual you and Vijay, make a point :-) I also think we need to = clarify what is fate sharing. - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? [dc] I think here you are talking about the so called ALS (Automatic = Laser Shutdown) there should b some ITU-T recc about this. I sorry I = forgot the number. - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) = obviously=20 makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated=20 signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs=20 additional message exchanges. The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some = elements=20 of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not = guarantee it.=20 [dc] Yes my understanding of the fate sharing is that upstream and = downstream LSP must follow the same path.=20 For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is=20 not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions = can=20 be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might = only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. [dc] Here is where ALS should come in the field. If the fibre is broken = in one direction the ALS should shutdown the laser associated to the = other direction. =20 =20 -------X-----> A B =20 <------------S That is X is a failure (LOL), as soon B detects the loss of light due to = the ALS is shutdown the laser (S in the picture) towards A End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and = seem=20 to be beyond this debate. So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of=20 asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? [dc] I've tried to make a summary of the point discussed so far in an = another mail Adrian ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20 Cc: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay, let me answer this. If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? Regards, Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. Regards, Don Regards, Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE4.D1CD0D9C Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on = draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt]

Hi Adrian,

          Some = comments in line

Best Regards


Diego

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<= /A>] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo 2007 12.05
To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on = draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt]

Hi,

There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" = and I am not sure

what problem we are trying to solve.

[dc] As usual you and Vijay, make a = point J I = also think we need to clarify what is fate sharing.

- Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in = one

  direction must cause data plane interruption in both = directions?

[dc] I think here you are = talking about the so called ALS (Automatic Laser = Shutdown) there should b some ITU-T recc about = this.  I sorry I forgot the = number.

- Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of = one

  direction to its backup path must be accompanied by = a

  switch-over of the other direction, too?

- Is this a control plane feature where the removal of = control

  plane state in one direction must cause the removal of = control

  plane state in the other direction?

The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) = obviously

makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of = associated

signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just = needs

additional message exchanges.

The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some = elements

of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it = does not

guarantee it.

[dc] Yes my = understanding of the fate sharing is = that upstream and downstream LSP must follow the same = path.

For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is =

not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the = directions can

be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure = might

only impact one direction in bidirectional = signaling.

[dc] Here is where ALS should = come in the field.  If the fibre is broken in = one direction the ALS should shutdown = the laser associated to the other direction. 

 

 -------X----->

A           &n= bsp;  B 

 <------------S

That is X is a failure (LOL), as soon B detects the = loss of light due to the ALS is shutdown the laser (S in the = picture) towards A

End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level = and seem

to be beyond this debate.


So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion = of

asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced = to:

- We need asymmetrical bidirectional services

- Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh = the

   cost of new signaling objects and = procedures?

[dc] I've tried to = make a summary of the point discussed so far in an another = mail

Adrian

----- Original Message -----

From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" = <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>

To: "Pandian, Vijay" = <Vijay.Pandian@sycamorenet.com>; "Don Fedyk" =

<dwfedyk@nortel.com>

Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>

Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM

Subject: RE: Questions on = draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi Vijay,

let me answer this.

If you need different protection for each direction then you likely = will

need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses = separate

sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having = a

single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take = different

routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth = property

of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in = RFC3471.

Regards,

Attila

________________________________

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<= /A>] On

Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay

Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM

To: Don Fedyk

Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org

Subject: RE: Questions on = draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt



Don,

The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if = one

direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse = direction

probably required some basic P&R (say = Re-routing).

So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for = the

forward and reverse direction. Am I right?

Regards,

Vijay



-----Original Message-----

From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]<= /SPAN>

Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM

To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org

Subject: RE: Questions on

draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi Vijay


________________________________

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org

[mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org<= /A>] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay

Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM

To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org

Subject: Questions on

draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi,

I have some basic questions, primarily trying to

understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind = such a

requirement.

1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric

Bandwidth requirement?

The postulation was that GMPLS today supports

bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating = a

bidirectional LSP.  The most common implementation of this is = Optical

TDM networks.  Since this was the starting point, the ID = postulates

setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric = LSP.  (Like

many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a = an

implementation.)

So to your question besides bandwidth there is = also

underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session = procedures and

support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does = today.  A

single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) = LSP.  In other

words a single RSVP-TE session.  Several people have pointed = out this is

also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at = each

end).  Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will = acknowledge

the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of = the

technology.  Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional = symmetric and

there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional = LSP.  On

the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify = the

asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of = multiple

sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: = I-D

ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)

|  2. How about other attributes? in particular = LSP

Protection & Recovery (P&R) related = attributes?

With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow

bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by = separate

RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session = associated

with the primary bidirectional LSP.

3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it = make

sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each = end)

and eventually signal them independently as well?


Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery = of

the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session = &

LSP.  The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional = symmetric

path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths = to

align.

4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse

flows to be on the same path?


That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in = my

case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet = data

plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both = require

bi-directional symmetric paths.  The requirement is to be able = to

support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions = and

bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is = required.

5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find = this

in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint = paths?


Yes it is related.  A shared resource link = group

identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths = have

shared resources at a very high level of granularity.  = Disjoint paths

have none or very few shared resources.  For a bidirectional = path the

shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have = common

resources and if one fails the other is likely to = fail.

Regards,

Don


Regards,

Vijay




------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE4.D1CD0D9C-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:35:15 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:35:00 +0100 Message-ID: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E91B19C1A@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> Thread-Topic: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] thread-index: Acdf32NH1b2srmy3TdmNji7nUQvlfgAAQ2Cw From: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" To: "Adrian Farrel" , "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk" Cc: Hi Adrian, Please see inline. Regards, Attila=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 12:05 PM > To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on=20 > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] >=20 > Hi, >=20 > There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I=20 > am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. >=20 > - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one > direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? >=20 > - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one > direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a > switch-over of the other direction, too? >=20 > - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control > plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control > plane state in the other direction? >=20 > The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional=20 > signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing=20 > automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not=20 > preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs=20 > additional message exchanges. Control plane fate sharing was mentioned as one benefit when having a single session. In this case additional message exchanges are not needed and there are no additional delays which otherwise would be an issue with restoration. >=20 > The use of an identical path for both directions can provide=20 > some elements of data plane fate sharing, but it is important=20 > to note that it does not guarantee it. For example, a=20 > unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is not impacted=20 > by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions=20 > can be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as=20 > a failure might only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. >=20 Agreed, the data plane aspects are technology specific. > End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different=20 > level and seem to be beyond this debate. >=20 >=20 > So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the=20 > discussion of=20 > asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: > - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services > - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the > cost of new signaling objects and procedures? Another point is on application scenarios. As Dimitri pointed out in his early mails, if a general extension to support asymmetric bandwidth is going to be specified its complexity might outweigh its benefits. However, given a focused scenario with single sided control and full bandwidth knowledge at the ingress, the simple extensions given in the ID might be appropriate. The question on this would be whether the proposed extension with this scope is worth the effort. >=20 > Adrian >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" > To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk"=20 > > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi Vijay, >=20 > let me answer this. >=20 > If you need different protection for each direction then you=20 > likely will > need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate > sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a > single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different > routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical=20 > bandwidth property > of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. >=20 > Regards, > Attila >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM > To: Don Fedyk > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 >=20 > Don, >=20 > The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one > direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction > probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). >=20 > So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the > forward and reverse direction. Am I right? >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Vijay >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM > To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Questions on > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi Vijay >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Questions on > draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I have some basic questions, primarily trying to > understand the scope of this ID as well as the application=20 > behind such a > requirement. >=20 > 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric > Bandwidth requirement? >=20 > The postulation was that GMPLS today supports > bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a > bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical > TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates > setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like > many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an > implementation.) >=20 > So to your question besides bandwidth there is also > underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session=20 > procedures and > support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A > single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable)=20 > LSP. In other > words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed=20 > out this is > also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each > end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will=20 > acknowledge > the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the > technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and > there are efficiencies in a single session of a=20 > bi-directional LSP. On > the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the > asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple > sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D > ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) >=20 > | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP > Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? >=20 > With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow > bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate > RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session=20 > associated > with the primary bidirectional LSP. >=20 > 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make > sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) > and eventually signal them independently as well? >=20 >=20 > Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of > the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & > LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric > path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to > align. >=20 > 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse > flows to be on the same path? >=20 >=20 > That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my > case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data > plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that=20 > both require > bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to > support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and > bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. >=20 > 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this > in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? >=20 >=20 > Yes it is related. A shared resource link group > identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared=20 > paths have > shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths > have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the > shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common > resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. >=20 > Regards, > Don >=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Vijay >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:29:49 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE2.AA8D5950" Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:29:39 +0100 Message-ID: <0428AC48A879ED46A94F39D5665DF6844D8C17@esealmw110.eemea.ericsson.se> Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdfWXhdZgmxmErtRe6bByz18y7HMAAFjIQwAAV27PAAFRNYMAAA99uQ From: "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk" Cc: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE2.AA8D5950 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guys, let me try to summarize what we have said so far: 1 The basic idea behind the ID is based on some facts (I hope we = all agree that are facts :-)); 1.1 Ethernet services are (likely) bidirectional with asymmetric = bandwidth; 1.2 GMPLS now allows to set-up bi-directional LSP with symmetrical = bandwidth; 1.3 If, with the existing protocols, there is the need to set-up a = bi-directional service with asymmetric bandwidth requirement (e.g. IpTv) = and with upstream and downstream path that follow the same route we have = to signal two different LSPs using the RRO of the first one as strict = ERO for the second one. If we also want to bind the two LSPs in order = to identify them as part of the same service we can use the ASSOCIATON = obj (modified I suppose) 1.4 Likely (I would say very likely) the NMS that requests the = LSP(s) set-up knows in advance the bandwidth needed in the two = directions. So we are in a different situation w.r.t. the original RSVP = situation. We have all the information we need to set-up the LSP at the = Path processing Now if all of we are happy with point 1.3 then we have finished. If = someone think that is better to have the possibility to set-up and = identify a bidirectional service with a single LSP then the ID have = reason to exists at least for discussion :-). IMHO having the possibility to set-up the LSP at the path processing = speed up the service establishment and this is particularly useful in = case of LSP rerouting in case of failure. In fact if the service is = made of the two LSP what could happens is the first one can be set-up = and the second one fails during signaling this means that first one have = to be deleted and two LSP path recomputed and re-signaled. =20 Best Regards =20 Diego =20 =20 =20 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH) Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo 2007 11.35 To: Pandian, Vijay; Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =20 Hi Vijay, =20 let me answer this.=20 =20 If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will = need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate = sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a = single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different = routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property = of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. =20 Regards, Attila =20 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, =20 The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one = direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction = probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). =20 So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward = and reverse direction. Am I right? =20 Regards, =20 Vijay =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay =20 =09 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, =20 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope = of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =20 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?=20 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service = with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most = common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was = the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service = with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a = requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =20 =20 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying = requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a = bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single = bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words = a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also = achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). = Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the = authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the = technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and = there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On = the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the = asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple = sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =20 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & = Recovery (P&R) related attributes?=20 =20 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection = or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate = from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary = bidirectional LSP. =20 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them = separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal = them independently as well?=20 =20 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the = bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. = The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so = you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align.=20 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the = same path?=20 =20 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is = where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and = in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional = symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native = Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional = symmetry in the data plane is required.=20 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. = Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?=20 =20 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared = resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources = at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very = few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes = from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails = the other is likely to fail. =20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =20 Regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE2.AA8D5950 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Guys,

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 let me try to summarize what = we have said so far:

1         The basic idea behind the ID is based on some facts = (I hope we all agree that are facts J);

1.1      = Ethernet services are (likely) = bidirectional with asymmetric bandwidth;

1.2      = GMPLS now allows to set-up = bi-directional LSP with symmetrical bandwidth;

1.3      = If, with the existing protocols, = there is the need to set-up a bi-directional service with asymmetric bandwidth requirement (e.g. IpTv) and with upstream and downstream path that = follow the same route we have to signal two different LSPs using the RRO of the = first one as strict ERO for the second one. =A0If we also want to bind the two = LSPs in order to identify them as part of the same service we can use the = ASSOCIATON obj (modified I suppose)

1.4      = Likely (I would say very likely) = the NMS that requests the LSP(s) set-up knows in advance the bandwidth needed in = the two directions. =A0So we are in a different situation w.r.t. the = original RSVP situation.=A0 We have all the information we need to set-up the LSP at = the Path processing

Now if all of we are happy with point 1.3 then we have finished. =A0If someone = think that is better to have the possibility to set-up and identify a = bidirectional service with a single LSP then the ID have reason to exists at least for discussion J.

IMHO having the possibility to set-up the LSP at the path processing speed up = the service establishment and this is particularly useful in case of LSP = rerouting in case of failure.=A0 In fact if the service is made of the two LSP = what could happens is the first one can be set-up and the second one fails during signaling this means that first one have to be deleted and two LSP path recomputed and re-signaled.=A0

Best Regards

 

Diego = =A0

 

 

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Attila Takacs = (IJ/ETH)
Sent: marted=EC 6 marzo = 2007 11.35
To: Pandian, Vijay; Don = Fedyk
Cc: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

 

Hi Vijay,

 

let me answer this.

 

If you need different protection for each direction = then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses = separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a = single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different = routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in = RFC3471.

 

Regards,

Attila

 

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, = 2007 1:36 AM
To: Don Fedyk
Cc: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Don,

 

The question I had regarding P&R was trying to = figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing).

 

So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I = right?

 

Regards,

 

Vijay

 

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, = 2007 6:41 PM
To: Pandian, Vijay; = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi Vijay

 

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay
Sent: Monday, March 05, = 2007 2:07 PM
To: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi,

 

I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of = this ID as well as the application behind such a = requirement.

 

1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? 

The postulation was that GMPLS today supports = bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional = LSP.  The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM = networks.  Since this was the starting point, the ID = postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric = LSP.  (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.)  

 

So to your question besides = bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session = procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today.  = A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP.  In = other words a single RSVP-TE session.  Several people have pointed out = this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end).  Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will = acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of = the technology.  Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric = and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional = LSP.  On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the = asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus = single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)

 

| =  2. How about other attributes? = in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related = attributes? 

 

With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to = allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in = separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary = bidirectional LSP.   

3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense = to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? 

 

Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery = of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & = LSP.  The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so = you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to = align. 

4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same = path? 

 

That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in = my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane = OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths.  The requirement is to be able to support native = Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in = the data plane is required.

5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or = IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? 

 

Yes it is related.  A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have = shared resources at a very high level of granularity.  Disjoint paths = have none or very few shared resources.  For a bidirectional path = the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common = resources and if one fails the other is likely to = fail.    

 

Regards,

Don

 

Regards,

 

Vijay

------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FE2.AA8D5950-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:06:44 +0000 Message-ID: <0f3801c75fdf$5ba7fc70$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" , "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk" Cc: Subject: What is this fate sharing thing? [Was: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:05:20 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about "fate-sharing" and I am not sure what problem we are trying to solve. - Is this a data plane feature where a data plane fault in one direction must cause data plane interruption in both directions? - Is this a protection feature where the switch-over of one direction to its backup path must be accompanied by a switch-over of the other direction, too? - Is this a control plane feature where the removal of control plane state in one direction must cause the removal of control plane state in the other direction? The use of a single control plane state (bidirectional signaling) obviously makes control plane fate-sharing automatic, but the use of associated signaling does not preclude control plane fate sharing - it just needs additional message exchanges. The use of an identical path for both directions can provide some elements of data plane fate sharing, but it is important to note that it does not guarantee it. For example, a unidirectional fiber could fail. This issue is not impacted by bidirectional or associated signaling as the directions can be installed on the path by associated signaling, and as a failure might only impact one direction in bidirectional signaling. End-to-end protection features are implemented at a different level and seem to be beyond this debate. So I am wondering what relevance fate-sharing has to the discussion of asymmetrical bandwidth. Maybe the discussion has reduced to: - We need asymmetrical bidirectional services - Does the value of a single signaling exchange outweigh the cost of new signaling objects and procedures? Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" To: "Pandian, Vijay" ; "Don Fedyk" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay, let me answer this. If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. Regards, Attila ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? Regards, Vijay -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well? Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align. 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required. 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. Regards, Don Regards, Vijay Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:35:15 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75FDB.13B4FBE9" Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:34:53 +0100 Message-ID: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E91B19B05@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt thread-index: AcdfWXhdZgmxmErtRe6bByz18y7HMAAFjIQwAAV27PAAFRNYMA== From: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" To: "Pandian, Vijay" , "Don Fedyk" Cc: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FDB.13B4FBE9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Vijay, =20 let me answer this.=20 =20 If you need different protection for each direction then you likely will need differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions for the two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like fate sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of the bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471. =20 Regards, Attila =20 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM To: Don Fedyk Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Don, =20 The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). =20 So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and reverse direction. Am I right? =20 Regards, =20 Vijay =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi, =20 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =20 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?=20 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =20 =20 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =20 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes?=20 =20 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. =20 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well?=20 =20 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align.=20 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path?=20 =20 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required.=20 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?=20 =20 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. =20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =20 Regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FDB.13B4FBE9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 Vijay,
 
let me=20 answer this.
 
If you=20 need different protection for each direction then you likely will need=20 differently routed LSPs. In this case one better uses separate sessions = for the=20 two directions since all the benefits of having a single session (like = fate=20 sharing) is gone if the LSPs take different routes. The ID=20 only proposes to relax the symmetrical bandwidth property of = the=20 bidirectional LSP establishment given in RFC3471.
 
Regards,
Attila
 
From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian,=20 Vijay
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:36 AM
To: Don=20 Fedyk
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions = on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Don,
 
The=20 question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one = direction=20 required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse=20 direction probably required some basic P&R=20 (say Re-routing).
 
So=20 the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and = reverse=20 direction. Am I right?
 
Regards,
 
Vijay
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Fedyk=20 [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 = 6:41=20 PM
To: Pandian, Vijay; = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE:=20 Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi Vijay

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org = [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian,=20 Vijay
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM
To: = ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi,
 
I have some=20 basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this = ID as=20 well as the application behind such a = requirement.
 
1. Does=20 this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? 
The=20 postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service = with a=20 single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP.  The most = common=20 implementation of this is Optical TDM networks.  Since this was the starting point, the ID = postulates setting=20 up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP.  = (Like many=20 new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an=20 = implementation.)  
 
So=20 to your question besides bandwidth there is also = underlying=20 requirement to align with GMPLS single session=20 procedures and support a bi-directional = packet data=20 plane as Ethernet does today.  A single bidirectional (in this = case=20 asymmetric BW capable) LSP.  In other words a single RSVP-TE=20 session.  Several people have pointed out this is also = achievable with=20 two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end).  Rather = than=20 reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the = authors had a=20 single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology.=20  Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there = are=20 efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional=20 LSP.  On the other hand the issue is = there is=20 currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to = discuss the=20 pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a = thread=20 on this (RE: I-D=20 = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)
 
|=20  2. How=20 about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery=20 (P&R) related attributes? 
 
With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to=20 allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by = separate=20 RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session = associated=20 with the primary bidirectional LSP.=20   
3. If=20 P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense=20 to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each = end) and=20 eventually signal them independently as well? 
 
Hopefully I=20 addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP = could be=20 handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP.  The data plane = in our=20 case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a = CSPF at=20 one end and/or force the paths to=20 align. 
4. Is=20 there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same=20 path? 
 
That = is the way an=20 Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the = requirement=20 comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases = Ethernet=20 forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric = paths.  The=20 requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and = data plane=20 trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is = required.=20
5. What=20 is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is = it same=20 as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? 
 
Yes = it is=20 related.  A shared resource link group identifies shared = resources at=20 some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very = high=20 level of granularity.  Disjoint paths have none or very = few shared=20 resources.  For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes = from=20 the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails = the=20 other is likely to=20 = fail.    
 
Regards,
Don=20
 
Regards,
 
Vijay
------_=_NextPart_001_01C75FDB.13B4FBE9-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:25:37 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:24:56 +0100 Message-ID: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E91B19AE4@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt thread-index: AcdeZg5sE8LUFdARSAao4Q9VfGEU0AAlrdQgAArQDHAAAr2rMAABX0QQACeADKA= From: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" To: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" , "Igor Bryskin" , "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" , "Igor Bryskin" , , Cc: , "Don Fedyk" Hi Julien, The point is that having a single session has its benefits in some cases (as pointed out in previous postings) but to leverage this the applicability is limited (again pointed out previously, e.g., single sided control) compared to a general RSVP-TE case with separate sessions. So we are not saying that the single session is *the* solution, it as an alternative option (maybe "valuable") to the separate session approach. Regards, Attila=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of MEURIC Julien=20 > RD-CORE-LAN > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:50 PM > To: Igor Bryskin; Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI); Igor Bryskin;=20 > Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Don Fedyk > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 > Hi Igor. >=20 > Please, find my answers in-line. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Julien >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]=20 >=20 > Julien, >=20 > Please, see in-line. >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On >=20 > Hi all. >=20 > To answer the 1st question, I would say that there is a=20 > requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional *service* (think=20 > about IP TV transport for instance). What is more, as Igor=20 > said, being able to handle both directions as a single=20 > service brings advantages (such as fate sharing), especially=20 > in terms of operating a network. Question is: does this=20 > necessarily map to "single LSP"? Not so sure... >=20 > Then, I do not see any strong requirement for having a single=20 > signalling exchange. >=20 > IB>> Well, if everything goes smoothly, the setup of a single > bi-directional LSP is twice as fast as the setup of two=20 > unidirectional LSPs. If there are some provisioning problems,=20 > then the difference may be much bigger. Think about the=20 > situation when there is a resource allocation failure for the=20 > opposite direction on the service node, say, next after the=20 > ingress. If you setup a single bi-directional LSP the failure=20 > is detected almost right away, the path is recomputed and LSP=20 > is re-routed. However, if you setup two reciprocal=20 > unidirectional LSPs, the failure won't be even detected=20 > before the Path message for the second LSP arrives on the=20 > failure detecting node. And now you will have to signal the=20 > release of both LSPs and start the whole setup again. So, the=20 > recovery time won't be all that great, don't you agree? >=20 > [JM] I agree with you. That is why, for recovery, a node=20 > should not rely on a third party (such as a manager or the=20 > other end-node). However, you are only saying that a single=20 > LSP may fit the requirement, but I still cannot say that the=20 > requirement leads only to this exact solution. :-) >=20 >=20 > Besides, I do not think a scenario with a management system=20 > communicating with both end-nodes should be excluded neither.=20 > However, in this case, it may be detrimental for the control=20 > plane to rely on an external party to correlate both directions. >=20 > IB>> My customers say that if one set's up a soft-PVC and one needs to > access both edges of the soft-PVC, one might just touch all=20 > other nodes, that is, setup a PVC instead. They believe that=20 > it is a significant advantage to be able to control service=20 > from one node. That's what makes the service provisioning=20 > *dynamic*. Frankly, as I see it the only situation for the=20 > management plane to access nodes other than ingress is when=20 > there is a problem with the CP. For example, one of the=20 > controllers went out of service and there is a need to tear=20 > down or reroute the service. >=20 > [JM] I do not think it is an issue of communication sessions.=20 > A PVC does not provide with the same kind of services as a=20 > soft-PVC, whether it rely on a bi-directional or 2=20 > uni-directional LSPs: differences are deeper than only=20 > head-node handling. Of course it is an advantage to control=20 > the service from a single point (node, manager...), but I do=20 > not see how provisioning from 2 nodes makes it less dynamic=20 > than provisioning from one node... Anyway I admit that it may=20 > ease automatic end-to-end provisioning in case of multi-layer=20 > or multi-domain services. >=20 >=20 > Can you give me other examples when such need arises? >=20 > [JM] I think if you want use the information in MIBs, you=20 > need to communicate with all nodes... From my point of view,=20 > the requirement is managing from a single *point* and=20 > defining this point as a node is only > *a* (valuable) solution. >=20 >=20 > Thanks, > Igor > =20 >=20 > Diego, to answer you, I think you are correct: re-using the=20 > RRO of the 1st one is an option to consider when routing by=20 > the controling plane, and using management-built ERO for both=20 > directions is valid in case of manual routing. As a result,=20 > it looks like tools are there to for provisioning,=20 > nevertheless it may bring an issue to guarantee fate sharing=20 > in case of recovery. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Julien >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI) >=20 > From my experience I can quote everything Igor said. GMPLS=20 > tunnel establishment is, AFAIK, always driven by the NMS/OSS=20 > that (quoting Neil Harrison here) is the King. >=20 > =20 >=20 > So I think that in the real world the Ingress node knows the=20 > upstream and downstream bandwidth of the GMPLS Tunnel is=20 > going to set-up. >=20 > Moreover if I'll use two uni-directional LSPs in order to=20 > set-up an LSP with asymmetrical bandwidth requirement I can=20 > force the path of the two LSPs to be the same? Do I have to=20 > use the RRO of the first one as ERO for the second one? Or I=20 > suppose to use a fully defined ERO for both the two LSP? In=20 > this case I do suppose that the ERO has been calculated by the NMS? >=20 > =20 >=20 > Regards >=20 >=20 > Diego >=20 > =20 >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin >=20 > Adrian and Dimitri, >=20 > When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason. =20 > Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to=20 > setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does not)=20 > contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all=20 > bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as I=20 > siad, for a particular reason (application, SLA, etc.).=20 > Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than=20 > computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration=20 > the bandwidth requirements for both directions? > So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node=20 > always knows about bandiwidth in both directions. >=20 > I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our=20 > customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a=20 > communication between management and control plane should=20 > always hapen at one (ingress) node. >=20 > Igor >=20 > PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic. >=20 > Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: >=20 > "Adrian Farrel"=20 > 04/03/2007 00:35 > Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" >=20 > To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri > PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL > cc: , "Don Fedyk"=20 > Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 >=20 > > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream > flowspec=20 > in > > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message >=20 > That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the=20 > ingress know >=20 > the=20 > bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on > the=20 > Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the=20 > FlowSpec=20 > on the Path. >=20 > -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource > reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would > boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever) >=20 > -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where=20 > flowspec=20 > =3D< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore = > the flowspec may be adapted=20 >=20 > If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from=20 > the egress, >=20 > then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to=20 > make the=20 > actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not > worth=20 > trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. >=20 > -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially=20 > the ingress >=20 > is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible=20 > without major > protocol modifications >=20 > -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp=20 > doesn't elevate > the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation > in > a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object > would > prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, > and > provide full flexibility >=20 >=20 > A=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:49:15 +0000 Message-ID: <0eea01c75fd4$5e1cce00$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Subject: Fw: Non-member submission from [mike shand ] Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:45:36 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > To: "LE ROUX Jean-Louis RD-CORE-LAN" > From: mike shand > Subject: RE: Review comments on draft-ietf-pce-disco-proto-isis-02.txt > from ISIS WG > Cc: , , , > "les Ginsberg \(ginsberg\)" > > At 19:48 01/03/2007, LE ROUX Jean-Louis RD-CORE-LAN wrote: >>Hi Mike, >> >>Thanks for these comments. >> >>Please see inline, >> >> > -----Message d'origine----- >> > De : owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org >> > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel >> > Envoy=E9 : jeudi 15 f=E9vrier 2007 12:10 >> > =C0 : ccamp@ops.ietf.org >> > Objet : Review comments on >> > draft-ietf-pce-disco-proto-isis-02.txt from ISIS WG >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "mike shand" >> > To: "Adrian Farrel" >> > Cc: ; "'Jean Philippe Vasseur'" >> > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:47 AM >> > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] PCE working group last call on >> > draft-ietf-pce-disco-proto-isis-02.txt >> > >> > >> > > Adrian, JP, >> > > >> > > >> > > A few comments below, mostly typos. >> > > >> > > Mike >> > > >> > > >> > > General comment... sometimes the document refers to octets and >> > > sometimes to bytes. It would be preferable to use a >> > consistent term throughout. >> >>OK >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Abstract >> > > >> > > >> > > along with some of information that can be used for PCE >> > selection. >> > > >> > > >> > > some of THE information >> > > >> > > or >> > > >> > > some information >> >>OK >> >> > > >> > > 1. Terminology >> > > >> > > ABR is not a commonly used term in the context of IS-IS and doesn't >> > > appear to be referenced in the document. >> >>OK >> >> > > >> > > domain. This definition is different from that commonly used for >> > > IS-IS. Is there a reason for the difference? The document refers to >> > > IS-IS routing domains. Is it intended that a domain is >> > different from a routing domain? >> >>This is a domain as defined in the PCE architecture spec (RFC4655) >> >>"A domain is any collection of network elements=20 >>within a common sphere of address management or=20 >>path computation responsibility. Examples of=20 >>domains include IGP areas, Autonomous Systems=20 >>(ASes), and multiple ASes within a Service=20 >>Provider network. Domains of path computation=20 >>responsibility may also exist as sub-domains of areas or ASes." >> >>We are going to clarify. We can use the term=20 >>"Path Computation Domain" to be more specific. > > Yes. I think it is important to make that differentiation. > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > top of page 5 >> > > >> > > >> > > This document does not define any new IS-IS elements of procedure. >> > > The procedures defined in [IS-IS-CAP] should be used. >> > > >> > > >> > > should that be ... MUST be used? >> >>OK, MUST be used >> >> > > >> > > 3.2 flooding scope >> > > >> > > >> > > be limited to one or more IS-IS areas the PCE belongs to, >> > or can be >> > > >> > > one or more IS-IS areas to which the PCE belongs >> > > >> > > would be better >> > > >> > > >> > > 4.1. The IS-IS PCED TLV >> > > >> > > In the introduction this is referred to (correctly) as a >> > sub-TLV, but >> > > here and in subsequent text it is referred to as a TLV. This is >> > > confusing to say the least. >> >>OK, to be changed to sub-TLV >> >> > > >> > > >> > > The format of the IS-IS PCED TLV and its sub-TLVs is the >> > identical to >> > > >> > > is identical to >> >>OK >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > 4.1.6. The CONGESTION sub-TLV >> > > >> > > >> > > The CONGESTION sub-TLV is used to indicate a PCE's experiences a >> > > >> > > to indicate THAT a PCE experiences >> > > >> > > or >> > > >> > > to indicate a PCE's experience of a >> > > >> > > or >> > > >> > > to indicate that a PCE is experiencing a >> >>OK >> >> > > >> > > >> > > VALUE: This comprises a one-byte bit flags indicating the >> > > >> > > >> > > this reads rather strangely >> > > >> > > this comprises one byte of bit flags.... >> >>OK >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > 5. Elements of Procedure >> > > >> > > >> > > typo >> > > >> > > >> > > domain, itMUST be carried within an IS-IS CAPABILITY TLV >> > having the >> > > S >> > > >> > > >> > > When the PCE function is deactivated on a node, the node MUST >> > > originate a new IS-IS LSP with no longer any PCED TLV. A >> > PCC MUST be >> > > able to detect that the PCED TLV has been removed from >> > an IS-IS LSP. >> > > >> > > >> > > are we assuming here that all this information will always >> > fit within >> > > a single LSP? That is probably reasonable >> >>Yes >> >> > > >> > > Are we also assuming that it will always fit within a >> > single IS-IS CAP >> > > TLV? That may not be so reasonable. >> >>Actually this sounds reasonable >> >>2 * PCE-ADDRESS + PATH-SCOPE + CONGESTION +=20 >>PCE-CAP-FLAGs (with 32 flags) =3D 40 bytes. >> >>This let 256 - 2 -40 =3D 214 bytes for the=20 >>PCE-DOMAINS and PCE-NEIG-DOMAINS, which allows=20 >>encoding 35 neighbor ASes for instance. >> >>Splitting a PCED TLV would add useless complexity. >>We are going to add this statement : The PCED=20 >>TLV MUST fit in with a single ISIS CAP TLV. >>By the way this restricts the number of PCE=20 >>domains and neighbor domains to a reasonable value. >> >>Does that make sense? > > Yes. The above statement removes any problems. > > > >> > > >> > > If it requires two IS-IS CAP TLVS, is there a requirement >> > that they be >> > > carried in the same LSP? >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > 7.1. IS-IS sub-TLV >> > > >> > > Once a registry for the IS-IS Router Capability TLV defined in >> > > [IS-IS-CAP] will have been assigned, IANA will assign a new >> > > >> > > >> > > "has been assigned" would be better >> >>OK >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > 9.5. Requirements on Other Protocols and Functional Components >> > > >> > > The IS-IS extensions defined in this documents does not imply any >> > > requirement on other protocols. >> > > >> > > do not imply (IS-IS extensions is plural) >> >>OK >> >>Thanks a lot. Once the last call is completed,=20 >>we are going to submit a new revision that accounts for all these >>comments. >> >>Regards, >> >>JL Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 00:36:16 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75F87.7793B3D3" Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 19:36:23 -0500 Message-ID: <0679BA70A2F59E49B186858B47F4595C010080E8@viper.sycamorenet.com> Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdfWXhdZgmxmErtRe6bByz18y7HMAAFjIQwAAV27PA= From: "Pandian, Vijay" To: "Don Fedyk" Cc: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F87.7793B3D3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don, =20 The question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one = direction required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse direction = probably required some basic P&R (say Re-routing). =20 So the requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward = and reverse direction. Am I right? =20 Regards, =20 Vijay =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Vijay _____ =20 From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, =20 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of = this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =20 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?=20 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service = with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most = common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was = the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service = with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a = requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =20 =20 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying = requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a = bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single = bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words = a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also = achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). = Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the = authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the = technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and = there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On = the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the = asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple = sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =20 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & = Recovery (P&R) related attributes?=20 =20 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection = or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate = from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary = bidirectional LSP. =20 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them = separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal = them independently as well?=20 =20 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the = bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. = The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so = you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align.=20 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same = path?=20 =20 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is = where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and = in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional = symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native = Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional = symmetry in the data plane is required.=20 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is = it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?=20 =20 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared = resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources = at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very = few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes = from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails = the other is likely to fail. =20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =20 Regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F87.7793B3D3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Don,
 
The=20 question I had regarding P&R was trying to figure out if one = direction=20 required a better P&R (say 1+1) and the reverse=20 direction probably required some basic P&R=20 (say Re-routing).
 
So the=20 requirement is to use the same "physical link" for the forward and = reverse=20 direction. Am I right?
 
Regards,
 
Vijay
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Fedyk=20 [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 = 6:41=20 PM
To: Pandian, Vijay; ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: = RE:=20 Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi Vijay

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian,=20 Vijay
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM
To:=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi,
 
I = have some=20 basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID = as well=20 as the application behind such a requirement.
 
1. Does=20 this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? 
The=20 postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with = a single=20 RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP.  The most common=20 implementation of this is Optical TDM networks.  Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates = setting up=20 an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP.  (Like = many new=20 drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an=20 = implementation.)  
 
So to=20 your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying = requirement=20 to align with GMPLS single session=20 procedures and support a bi-directional = packet data=20 plane as Ethernet does today.  A single bidirectional (in this = case=20 asymmetric BW capable) LSP.  In other words a single RSVP-TE=20 session.  Several people have pointed out this is also achievable = with=20 two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end).  Rather = than=20 reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the = authors had a=20 single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. =  Ethernet=20 data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies = in a=20 single session of a bi-directional=20 LSP.  On the other hand the issue is there = is=20 currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss = the pros=20 and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread = on this=20 (RE: I-D=20 = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)
 
|=20  2. How=20 about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery = (P&R)=20 related attributes? 
 
With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to = allow bi-directional=20 Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in = separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the = primary=20 bidirectional LSP.=20   
3. If=20 P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense = to route=20 them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and=20 eventually signal them independently as well? 
 
Hopefully I=20 addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP = could be=20 handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP.  The data plane in = our case=20 must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at = one end=20 and/or force the paths to=20 align. 
4. Is=20 there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same = path? 
 
That = is the way an=20 Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the = requirement comes=20 from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet = forwarding=20 rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths.  The = requirement=20 is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace = functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required.=20
5. What is=20 "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it = same as=20 link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? 
 
Yes it = is=20 related.  A shared resource link group identifies shared = resources at=20 some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very = high level=20 of granularity.  Disjoint paths have none or very few shared = resources.  For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes = from the=20 fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the = other is=20 likely to=20 fail.    
 
Regards,
Don=20
 
Regards,
 
Vijay
------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F87.7793B3D3-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:46:54 +0000 Message-ID: <0ea701c75f80$81b872f0$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" , Cc: Subject: Re: New communication from the OIF Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:46:21 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julien, Dimitry, I, too, read these examples as a desire to perform aggregation of multiple Ethernet flows into a single managed flow. My question is, what is wrong with a tunnel construct? Such a construction, like the label stack in MPLS, is easily available in Ethernet. Is there a specific reason why the end-to-end labels must be visible in the data plane in the core of the network? In this sense, the request for a concatenation of labels is simply so that multiple labels can be treated in the same way, not (unlike the TDM case) in order to construct some for of virtual concatenation. If it were the case that each Ethernet label had a limited amount of bandwidth associated and it was necessary to clump labels to make a bigger unit of bandwidth, the case would be different, but that does not apply to Ethernet AFAIK. So, still struggling to understand the underlying requirement. Perhaps it is "simply" the desire to exchange only one Path message between source and destination when multiple LSPs are formed between the same pair of end-points. One might argue the same case in L3VPN deployments. Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" To: ; Cc: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: cc: Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian ==== February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard, dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling messages for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:43:46 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75F7F.CA22882C" Subject: RE: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 18:41:24 -0500 Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DE71BCB@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdfWXhdZgmxmErtRe6bByz18y7HMAAFjIQw From: "Don Fedyk" To: "Pandian, Vijay" , This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F7F.CA22882C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Vijay ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian, Vijay Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Hi, =20 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =20 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?=20 The postulation was that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE session creating a bidirectional LSP. The most common implementation of this is Optical TDM networks. Since this was the starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with a single asymmetric LSP. (Like many new drafts it sets a requirement and postulates a an implementation.) =20 =20 So to your question besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to align with GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional packet data plane as Ethernet does today. A single bidirectional (in this case asymmetric BW capable) LSP. In other words a single RSVP-TE session. Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two unidirectional RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end). Rather than reopen that debate on this thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind more as a requirement of the technology. Ethernet data forwarding is bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session of a bi-directional LSP. On the other hand the issue is there is currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on this (RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt) =20 | 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes?=20 =20 With respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection or Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate from the single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP. =20 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them independently as well?=20 =20 Hopefully I addressed part of this already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another RSVP-TE session & LSP. The data plane in our case must have a bi-directional symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the paths to align.=20 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path?=20 =20 That is the way an Ethernet data plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. There is Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that both require bi-directional symmetric paths. The requirement is to be able to support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required.=20 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?=20 =20 Yes it is related. A shared resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. Fate shared paths have shared resources at a very high level of granularity. Disjoint paths have none or very few shared resources. For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes from the fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the other is likely to fail. =20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =20 Regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F7F.CA22882C Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Vijay

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pandian,=20 Vijay
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 PM
To:=20 ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Questions on=20 draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Hi,
 
I = have some basic=20 questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well = as the=20 application behind such a requirement.
 
1. Does this=20 ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? 
The = postulation was=20 that GMPLS today supports bi-directional service with a single RSVP-TE = session=20 creating a bidirectional LSP.  The most common implementation of = this is=20 Optical TDM networks.  Since this was = the=20 starting point, the ID postulates setting up an asymmetric service with = a=20 single asymmetric LSP.  (Like many new drafts it sets a = requirement=20 and postulates a an=20 implementation.)  
 
So to = your question=20 besides bandwidth there is also underlying requirement to = align with=20 GMPLS single session procedures and support a bi-directional = packet data=20 plane as Ethernet does today.  A single bidirectional (in this case = asymmetric BW capable) LSP.  In other words a single RSVP-TE = session. =20 Several people have pointed out this is also achievable with two = unidirectional=20 RSVP-TE sessions (one at each end).  Rather than reopen that debate = on this=20 thread I will acknowledge the authors had a single session in mind = more as=20 a requirement of the technology.  Ethernet data forwarding is=20 bi-directional symmetric and there are efficiencies in a single session = of a=20 bi-directional LSP.  On the other hand the issue is there = is=20 currently no way to specify the asymmetric BW. If you want to discuss = the pros=20 and cons of multiple sessions versus single there is already a thread on = this=20 (RE: I-D=20 ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt)
 
| =  2. How about other attributes? in particular = LSP=20 Protection & Recovery (P&R) related attributes? 
 
With=20 respect to GMPLS, the plan was to allow bi-directional Protection = or=20 Recovery LSPs controlled by separate RSVP-TE sessions in separate = from the=20 single RSVP-TE session associated with the primary bidirectional LSP.=20   
3. If=20 P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense = to route=20 them separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and=20 eventually signal them independently as well? 
 
Hopefully I addressed = part of this=20 already. Recovery of the bi-directional LSP could be handled by another = RSVP-TE=20 session & LSP.  The data plane in our case must have a = bi-directional=20 symmetric path so you can only do a CSPF at one end and/or force the = paths to=20 align. 
4. Is there=20 a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same path? 
 
That is the way an = Ethernet data=20 plane works, and in my case this is where the requirement comes from. = There is=20 Ethernet data plane OAM and in some cases Ethernet forwarding rules that = both=20 require bi-directional symmetric paths.  The requirement is to be = able to=20 support native Ethernet loopback and data plane trace functions and=20 bi-directional symmetry in the data plane is required.=20
5. What is=20 "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same = as=20 link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? 
 
Yes it is = related.  A shared=20 resource link group identifies shared resources at some granularity. = Fate shared=20 paths have shared resources at a very high level of=20 granularity.  Disjoint paths have none or very few shared=20 resources.  For a bidirectional path the shared fate comes = from the=20 fact that both direction have common resources and if one fails the = other is=20 likely to = fail.    
 
Regards,
Don =
 
Regards,
 
Vijay
<= /HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F7F.CA22882C-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:42:24 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75F66.B1D5D5C6" Subject: New Draft : LMP Graceful Restart Procedure Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:41:47 -0600 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: New Draft : LMP Graceful Restart Procedure Thread-Index: AcdfZrGgCpz5C1WVSpaNn47XQOd2sg== From: "Bardalai, Snigdho" To: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F66.B1D5D5C6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear CCAMPers, We've posted a new draft: LMP Graceful Restart Procedure. Your comments are very welcome.=20 Thanks, Snigdho Abstract For the LMP graceful restart functionality, under some circumstance the = restart node may get wrong LMP states from its neighbor. So the = clarification of LMP graceful restart procedure is described in this = document. A control-channel failure following some form of network re- = configuration typically could lead to the release of LSP resources. = Since LMP graceful restart prevents the re-discovery of the control- = channel, link verification will not be triggered. The only way to = recover LMP from this state is by some operator intervention. =20 Because we have missed the final ID submission cut-off date, this draft = can be found under the missing drafts link at: ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F66.B1D5D5C6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable New Draft : LMP Graceful Restart Procedure

Dear CCAMPers,
We’ve posted a new draft: LMP Graceful = Restart Procedure.
Your comments are very welcome.

Thanks,

Snigdho

Abstract

For the LMP graceful restart functionality, = under some circumstance the restart node may get wrong LMP states from = its neighbor. So the clarification of LMP graceful restart procedure is = described in this document. A control-channel failure following some = form of network re- configuration typically could lead to the release of = LSP resources. Since LMP graceful restart prevents the re-discovery of = the control- channel, link verification will not be triggered. The only = way to recover LMP from this state is by some operator = intervention.

 
Because we have missed the final ID submission = cut-off date, this draft can be found under the missing drafts link = at:

<http://www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.= htm>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F66.B1D5D5C6-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:20:34 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: WG Last Call:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-pd-path-comp-04.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:19:28 -0600 Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DBFBFE7@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> Thread-Topic: WG Last Call:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-pd-path-comp-04.txt Thread-Index: AcdVMQhQaQPVOm4ASwG6m01z+u5DGAKMk3IA From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" To: Hi, This is the start of the WG Last Call for this document. In consideration of the meeting week, we will extend the Last Call until March 30th. Please email the authors and the list with any comments, concerns, or corrections. Thanks, Deborah and Adrian -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 3:50 PM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-pd-path-comp-04.txt=20 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts=20 directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : A Per-domain path computation method for=20 establishing Inter-domain Traffic=20 Engineering (TE) Label Switched Paths (LSPs) Author(s) : J. Vasseur, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-pd-path-comp-04.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2007-2-20 =09 This document specifies a per-domain path computation technique for establishing inter-domain Traffic Engineering (TE) Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Label Switched Paths (LSPs). In this document a domain refers to a collection of network elements within a common sphere of address management or path computational responsibility such as IGP areas and Autonomous Systems. Per-domain computation applies where the full path of an inter-domain TE LSP cannot be or is not determined at the ingress node of the TE LSP, and is not signaled across domain boundaries. This is most likely to arise owing to TE visibility limitations. The signaling message indicates the destination and nodes up to the next domain boundary. It may also indicate further domain boundaries or domain identifiers. The path through each domain, possibly including the choice of exit point from the domain, must be determined within the domain. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-pd-pat h-comp-04.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to=20 i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of=20 the message.=20 You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce=20 to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the=20 username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After=20 logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then=20 "get draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-pd-path-comp-04.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=20 or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-pd-path-comp-04.txt". =09 NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:13:11 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:12:35 -0600 Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DBFBFD0@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> Thread-Topic: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt Thread-Index: AcdcQ2A5HC1vhlvXT9qiSetEzGkauwDHs39w From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" To: Hi, This is the start of the WG Last Call for this document. In consideration of the meeting week, we will extend the Last Call until March 30th. Please email the authors and the list with any comments, concerns, or corrections. Thanks, Deborah and Adrian -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 3:50 PM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt=20 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts=20 directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : Inter domain Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering - RSVP-TE extensions Author(s) : A. Ayyangar, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2007-3-1 =09 This document describes procedures and protocol extensions for the use of Resource ReserVation Protocol Traffic Engineering (RSVP-TE) signaling in Multiprotocol Label Switching Traffic Engineering (MPLS-TE) packet networks and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) packet and non-packet networks to support the establishment and maintenance of Label Switched Paths that cross domain boundaries. For the purpose of this document, a domain is considered to be any collection of network elements within a common realm of address space or path computation responsibility. Examples of such domains include Autonomous Systems, IGP routing areas, and GMPLS overlay networks. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-t e-05.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to=20 i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of=20 the message.=20 You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce=20 to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the=20 username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After=20 logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then=20 "get draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=20 or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt". =09 NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:09:15 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: FW: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:07:40 -0600 Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0DBFBFC1@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt Thread-Index: AcdcXHewSpG5V5DISvameliNvsPlzgDBNCxg From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" To: Hi, This is the start of the WG Last Call for this document. In consideration of the meeting week, we will extend the Last Call until March 30th. Please email the authors and the list with any comments, concerns or corrections. Thanks, Deborah and Adrian -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 6:50 PM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt=20 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts=20 directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : Label Switched Path Stitching with Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching Traffic Engineering (GMPLS TE) Author(s) : A. Ayyangar, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2007-3-1 =09 In certain scenarios, there may be a need to combine together several Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switched Paths (LSPs) such that a single end-to-end (e2e) LSP is realized and all traffic from one constituent LSP is switched onto the next LSP. We will refer to this as "LSP stitching", the key requirement being that a constituent LSP not be allocated to more than one e2e LSP. The constituent LSPs will be referred to as "LSP segments" (S-LSPs). This document describes extensions to the existing GMPLS signaling protocol (RSVP-TE) to establish e2e LSPs created from from S-LSPs, and describes how the LSPs can be managed using the GMPLS signaling and routing protocols. It may be possible to configure a GMPLS node to switch the traffic from an LSP for which it is the egress, to another LSP for which it is the ingress, without requiring any signaling or routing extensions whatsoever, completely transparent to other nodes. This will also result in LSP stitching in the data plane. However, this document does not cover this scenario of LSP stitching. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.tx t To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to=20 i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of=20 the message.=20 You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce=20 to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the=20 username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After=20 logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then=20 "get draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=20 or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt". =09 NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 19:07:01 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75F59.785482B8" Subject: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:07:07 -0500 Message-ID: <0679BA70A2F59E49B186858B47F4595C010080E0@viper.sycamorenet.com> Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdfWXhdZgmxmErtRe6bByz18y7HMA== From: "Pandian, Vijay" To: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F59.785482B8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, =20 I have some basic questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of = this ID as well as the application behind such a requirement. =20 1. Does this ID address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement? 2. How about other attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery = (P&R) related attributes? 3. If P&R are indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them = separately (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal = them independently as well? 4. Is there a need for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same = path? 5. What is "fate sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is = it same as link/node/SRLG disjoint paths? =20 Regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F59.785482B8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
 
I have = some basic=20 questions, primarily trying to understand the scope of this ID as well = as the=20 application behind such a requirement.
 
1. = Does this ID=20 address just an asymmetric Bandwidth requirement?
2. How = about other=20 attributes? in particular LSP Protection & Recovery (P&R) = related=20 attributes?
3. If = P&R are=20 indeed different, doesn't it make sense to route them = separately=20 (separate CSPF calculation at each end) and eventually signal them=20 independently as well?
4. Is = there a need=20 for the forward and reverse flows to be on the same = path?
5. = What is "fate=20 sharing"? I couldn't find this in other RFCs or IDs. Is it same as=20 link/node/SRLG disjoint paths?
 
Regards,
 
Vijay
<= /HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F59.785482B8-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 17:45:47 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New communication from the OIF Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 18:44:26 +0100 Message-ID: <7DBAFEC6A76F3E42817DF1EBE64CB026045B65FC@FTRDMEL2.rd.francetelecom.fr> Thread-Topic: New communication from the OIF Thread-Index: AcdbayDcbBgWFH/GQxaKwCwVQ0JJpwDxAncA From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" To: , Cc: Hi Dimitri. If you consider the access network, I agree with you: provisioning would probably be on a per customer basis. However, when we focus on the aggregation or the core networks, service establishment could be needed for a collection of VIDs already in place: as far as I understand, this is what the MEF defines as a single service carrying several VLANs, and I believe the OIF would prefer to establish this as a single service instead of signalling a list of 500 VIDs, especially if end-to-end recovery is needed some time. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be adrain, very interesting examples / applications of ethernet LSPs but in the proposed cases i see more rationales to unbundle than bundle the VLAN ID in the same Path message for the VLAN per service i guess we're on the safe path, for the VLAN per customer the question is simple, are all customers specs identical and provisioned at the same time ? thanks, - d. "Adrian Farrel" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 28/02/2007 16:16 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" =20 To: cc:=20 Subject: New communication from the OIF Hi, We have received the following communication from the OIF discussing their=20 desire to build compound VLAN-ID labels. It would be good to look at the scenarios they describe to examine what our recommendations are. All input gratefully received. As always, all communications can be found through the CCAMP alternate Web=20 site at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm Regards, Adrian =3D=3D=3D=3D February 27, 2007 To: Adrian Farrel, adrian@olddog.co.uk and Deborah Brungard,=20 dbrungard@att.com, IETF CCAMP WG co-chairs From: Jim Jones, OIF Technical Committee Chair Subject: Further Information Regarding VLAN ID Requirements Dear Adrian and Deborah, It is our understanding that CCAMP members requested more information to understand the requirements we have identified for carrying or indicating=20 large numbers of VLAN IDs in the Label objects in control signaling=20 messages=20 for Ethernet connections with frame switching granularity. This issue is more fully described in the attached excerpt from our liaison to CCAMP on=20 October 2006. Accordingly, our carrier WG has developed a small set of illustrative=20 scenarios as attached, for CCAMP's review and information. We would be strongly interested in CCAMP's conclusions on how these=20 scenarios can be supported using existing GMPLS methods or if any further=20 definition might be required. Best regards, Jim Jones OIF Technical Committee Chair Attachments: 1) Excerpt from OIF Liaison to IETF CCAMP of October 2006 2) oif2007.056 - Illustrative Scenarios of VLAN ID Use cc: Bill Fenner and Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Directors Lyndon Ong, OIF TC Vice Chair Evelyne Roch, OIF Interoperability Working Group Chair Jonathan Sadler, OIF Architecture & Signaling Working Group Chair=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 16:51:46 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 17:49:56 +0100 Message-ID: <7DBAFEC6A76F3E42817DF1EBE64CB026045B65AB@FTRDMEL2.rd.francetelecom.fr> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdeZg5sE8LUFdARSAao4Q9VfGEU0AAlrdQgAArQDHAAAr2rMAABX0QQ From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" To: "Igor Bryskin" , "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" , "Igor Bryskin" , , Cc: , "Don Fedyk" Hi Igor. Please, find my answers in-line. Regards, Julien -----Original Message----- From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]=20 Julien, Please, see in-line. -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Hi all. To answer the 1st question, I would say that there is a requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional *service* (think about IP TV transport for instance). What is more, as Igor said, being able to handle both directions as a single service brings advantages (such as fate sharing), especially in terms of operating a network. Question is: does this necessarily map to "single LSP"? Not so sure... Then, I do not see any strong requirement for having a single signalling exchange. IB>> Well, if everything goes smoothly, the setup of a single bi-directional LSP is twice as fast as the setup of two unidirectional LSPs. If there are some provisioning problems, then the difference may be much bigger. Think about the situation when there is a resource allocation failure for the opposite direction on the service node, say, next after the ingress. If you setup a single bi-directional LSP the failure is detected almost right away, the path is recomputed and LSP is re-routed. However, if you setup two reciprocal unidirectional LSPs, the failure won't be even detected before the Path message for the second LSP arrives on the failure detecting node. And now you will have to signal the release of both LSPs and start the whole setup again. So, the recovery time won't be all that great, don't you agree? [JM] I agree with you. That is why, for recovery, a node should not rely on a third party (such as a manager or the other end-node). However, you are only saying that a single LSP may fit the requirement, but I still cannot say that the requirement leads only to this exact solution. :-) Besides, I do not think a scenario with a management system communicating with both end-nodes should be excluded neither. However, in this case, it may be detrimental for the control plane to rely on an external party to correlate both directions. IB>> My customers say that if one set's up a soft-PVC and one needs to access both edges of the soft-PVC, one might just touch all other nodes, that is, setup a PVC instead. They believe that it is a significant advantage to be able to control service from one node. That's what makes the service provisioning *dynamic*. Frankly, as I see it the only situation for the management plane to access nodes other than ingress is when there is a problem with the CP. For example, one of the controllers went out of service and there is a need to tear down or reroute the service. [JM] I do not think it is an issue of communication sessions. A PVC does not provide with the same kind of services as a soft-PVC, whether it rely on a bi-directional or 2 uni-directional LSPs: differences are deeper than only head-node handling. Of course it is an advantage to control the service from a single point (node, manager...), but I do not see how provisioning from 2 nodes makes it less dynamic than provisioning from one node... Anyway I admit that it may ease automatic end-to-end provisioning in case of multi-layer or multi-domain services. Can you give me other examples when such need arises? [JM] I think if you want use the information in MIBs, you need to communicate with all nodes... From my point of view, the requirement is managing from a single *point* and defining this point as a node is only *a* (valuable) solution. Thanks, Igor =20 Diego, to answer you, I think you are correct: re-using the RRO of the 1st one is an option to consider when routing by the controling plane, and using management-built ERO for both directions is valid in case of manual routing. As a result, it looks like tools are there to for provisioning, nevertheless it may bring an issue to guarantee fate sharing in case of recovery. Regards, Julien ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI) >From my experience I can quote everything Igor said. GMPLS tunnel establishment is, AFAIK, always driven by the NMS/OSS that (quoting Neil Harrison here) is the King. =20 So I think that in the real world the Ingress node knows the upstream and downstream bandwidth of the GMPLS Tunnel is going to set-up. Moreover if I'll use two uni-directional LSPs in order to set-up an LSP with asymmetrical bandwidth requirement I can force the path of the two LSPs to be the same? Do I have to use the RRO of the first one as ERO for the second one? Or I suppose to use a fully defined ERO for both the two LSP? In this case I do suppose that the ERO has been calculated by the NMS? =20 Regards Diego =20 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin Adrian and Dimitri, When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason. Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does not) contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as I siad, for a particular reason (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration the bandwidth requirements for both directions? So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always knows about bandiwidth in both directions. I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a communication between management and control plane should always hapen at one (ingress) node. Igor PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: "Adrian Farrel"=20 04/03/2007 00:35 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri=20 PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: , "Don Fedyk"=20 Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec=20 in > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know the=20 bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the=20 Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the=20 FlowSpec=20 on the Path. -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever) -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where flowspec=20 =3D< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore=20 the flowspec may be adapted=20 If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the=20 actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth=20 trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without major protocol modifications -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation in a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object would prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and provide full flexibility A=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:21:34 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75F39.ABCBCF8C" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:19:29 -0500 Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DE15EC9@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdeZMgb6Cari5bkRdmTBI6xZ1tGZgAx/4Bg From: "Don Fedyk" To: "Igor Bryskin" , , "Adrian Farrel" Cc: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F39.ABCBCF8C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All =20 Igor has captured my understanding as well that the situation we are concerned with is a GMPLS control plane being deployed to map the capabilities from a management plane.=20 =20 In terms of this requirement I see GMPLS control of optical/tdm and GMPLS control of Ethernet being just as you say: The ingress node knows the bandwidth for both directions.=20 =20 Regards, Don=20 =20 ________________________________ From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 8:56 AM To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; Adrian Farrel Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Fedyk, Don (BL60:1A00); Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 Adrian and Dimitri, =09 When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason. Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does not) contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as I siad, for a particular reason (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration the bandwidth requirements for both directions? So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always knows about bandiwidth in both directions. =09 I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a communication between management and control plane should always hapen at one (ingress) node. =09 Igor =09 PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic. =09 Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:=20 "Adrian Farrel"=20 04/03/2007 00:35 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" =09 To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri=20 PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: , "Don Fedyk"=20 Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =09 =09 > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec=20 in > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message =09 That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know=20 the=20 bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the=20 Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the=20 FlowSpec=20 on the Path. =09 -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever) =09 -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where flowspec=20 =3D< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore=20 the flowspec may be adapted=20 =09 If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress,=20 then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the=20 actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth=20 trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. =09 -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress=20 is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without major protocol modifications =09 -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation in a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object would prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and provide full flexibility =09 =09 A=20 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 ________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F39.ABCBCF8C Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All
 
Igor has captured my understanding as well that = the=20 situation we are concerned with is a GMPLS control plane being deployed = to map=20 the capabilities from a management plane. 
 
In terms of this requirement I see GMPLS = control of=20 optical/tdm and GMPLS control of Ethernet being just as you say: The = ingress=20 node knows the bandwidth for both directions. 
 
Regards,
Don
 
From: Igor Bryskin=20 [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 = 8:56=20 AM
To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; Adrian=20 Farrel
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Fedyk, Don (BL60:1A00); Igor=20 Bryskin
Subject: Re: I-D=20 ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

Adrian and Dimitri,

When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it = is=20 setup for a reason.  Let's say, management plane requests a = tunnel=20 ingress node to setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does = not)=20 contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all bandwidth = parameters,=20 because the tunnel was requested, as I siad,  for a particular=20 reason  (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure = the fate=20 sharing other than computing a path on the ingress node taking in=20 consideration the bandwidth requirements for both directions?
So, = yes, I'd=20 say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always knows about = bandiwidth=20 in both directions.

I'd say even more. We have a strict = requirement=20 from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a = communication=20 between management and control plane should always hapen at one = (ingress)=20 node.

Igor

PS It would be interesting to hear from = providers on=20 this = topic.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be=20 wrote:
"Adrian=20 Farrel"
04/03/2007 00:35
Please respond = to=20 "Adrian Farrel"

To: "Igor Bryskin" , = Dimitri=20
PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: , = "Don=20 Fedyk"
Subject: Re: I-D=20 ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


> 3. if a) is = selected=20 there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec
in
> = the Path=20 msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message

That *does* = raise an=20 interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know
the =
bandwidth to=20 request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the =
Resv as the=20 reservation has already been made commensurate with the
FlowSpec =
on=20 the Path.

-> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side = to never=20 adapt resource
reservation to the traffic parameters of the = egress (in=20 fact, it would
boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry=20 forever)

-> hence, initially you must satisfy at least = condition=20 where flowspec
=3D< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may = "increase"=20 and therefore
the flowspec may be adapted

If the ingress = does=20 *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress,
then we = need=20 another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the
actual = reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth=20
trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP = format.

-> this=20 is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress =
is=20 completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without=20 major
protocol modifications

-> my partial conclusion, = is that=20 a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate
the need for the general = case, and=20 only provides apparent facilitation in
a corner case, whereas a = technique=20 making use of association object would
prevent all this protocol=20 massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and
provide full=20 flexibility


A=20 =





It's here! Your new message!
Get new=20 email alerts with the free Yahoo!=20 Toolbar.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C75F39.ABCBCF8C-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 14:07:56 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 15:03:47 +0100 Message-ID: <7DBAFEC6A76F3E42817DF1EBE64CB026045B6461@FTRDMEL2.rd.francetelecom.fr> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdeZg5sE8LUFdARSAao4Q9VfGEU0AAlrdQgAArQDHA= From: "MEURIC Julien RD-CORE-LAN" To: "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" , "Igor Bryskin" , , Cc: , "Don Fedyk" Hi all. To answer the 1st question, I would say that there is a requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional *service* (think about IP TV transport for instance). What is more, as Igor said, being able to handle both directions as a single service brings advantages (such as fate sharing), especially in terms of operating a network. Question is: does this necessarily map to "single LSP"? Not so sure... Then, I do not see any strong requirement for having a single signalling exchange. Besides, I do not think a scenario with a management system communicating with both end-nodes should be excluded neither. However, in this case, it may be detrimental for the control plane to rely on an external party to correlate both directions. Diego, to answer you, I think you are correct: re-using the RRO of the 1st one is an option to consider when routing by the controling plane, and using management-built ERO for both directions is valid in case of manual routing. As a result, it looks like tools are there to for provisioning, nevertheless it may bring an issue to guarantee fate sharing in case of recovery. Regards, Julien ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI) >From my experience I can quote everything Igor said. GMPLS tunnel establishment is, AFAIK, always driven by the NMS/OSS that (quoting Neil Harrison here) is the King. =20 So I think that in the real world the Ingress node knows the upstream and downstream bandwidth of the GMPLS Tunnel is going to set-up. Moreover if I'll use two uni-directional LSPs in order to set-up an LSP with asymmetrical bandwidth requirement I can force the path of the two LSPs to be the same? Do I have to use the RRO of the first one as ERO for the second one? Or I suppose to use a fully defined ERO for both the two LSP? In this case I do suppose that the ERO has been calculated by the NMS? =20 Regards Diego =20 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin Adrian and Dimitri, When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason. Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does not) contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as I siad, for a particular reason (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration the bandwidth requirements for both directions? So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always knows about bandiwidth in both directions. I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a communication between management and control plane should always hapen at one (ingress) node. Igor PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: "Adrian Farrel"=20 04/03/2007 00:35 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri=20 PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: , "Don Fedyk"=20 Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec=20 in > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know the=20 bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the=20 Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the=20 FlowSpec=20 on the Path. -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever) -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where flowspec=20 =3D< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore=20 the flowspec may be adapted=20 If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the=20 actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth=20 trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without major protocol modifications -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation in a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object would prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and provide full flexibility A=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 08:13:22 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75EFD.DB337606" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:11:48 +0100 Message-ID: <0428AC48A879ED46A94F39D5665DF6844D890B@esealmw110.eemea.ericsson.se> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdeZg5sE8LUFdARSAao4Q9VfGEU0AAlrdQg From: "Diego Caviglia \(GA/ERI\)" To: "Igor Bryskin" , , "Adrian Farrel" Cc: , "Don Fedyk" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75EFD.DB337606 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From my experience I can quote everything Igor said. GMPLS tunnel establishment is, AFAIK, always driven by the NMS/OSS that (quoting Neil Harrison here) is the King. =20 So I think that in the real world the Ingress node knows the upstream and downstream bandwidth of the GMPLS Tunnel is going to set-up. Moreover if I'll use two uni-directional LSPs in order to set-up an LSP with asymmetrical bandwidth requirement I can force the path of the two LSPs to be the same? Do I have to use the RRO of the first one as ERO for the second one? Or I suppose to use a fully defined ERO for both the two LSP? In this case I do suppose that the ERO has been calculated by the NMS? =20 Regards Diego =20 ________________________________ From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin Sent: domenica 4 marzo 2007 14.56 To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; Adrian Farrel Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; Don Fedyk; Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt =20 Adrian and Dimitri, When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason. Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does not) contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as I siad, for a particular reason (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration the bandwidth requirements for both directions? So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always knows about bandiwidth in both directions. I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a communication between management and control plane should always hapen at one (ingress) node. Igor PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: "Adrian Farrel"=20 04/03/2007 00:35 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri=20 PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: , "Don Fedyk"=20 Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec=20 in > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know the=20 bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the=20 Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the=20 FlowSpec=20 on the Path. -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever) -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where flowspec=20 =3D< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore=20 the flowspec may be adapted=20 If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the=20 actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth=20 trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without major protocol modifications -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation in a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object would prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and provide full flexibility A=20 =20 =20 ________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75EFD.DB337606 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

From my experience I can quote = everything Igor said.  GMPLS tunnel establishment is, AFAIK, always driven by = the NMS/OSS that (quoting Neil Harrison here) is the = King.

 

So I think that in the real world = the Ingress node knows the upstream and downstream bandwidth of the GMPLS = Tunnel is going to set-up.

Moreover if I’ll use two uni-directional LSPs in order to set-up an LSP with asymmetrical = bandwidth requirement I can force the path of the two LSPs to be the same? =  Do I have to use the RRO of the first one as ERO for the second one?  Or = I suppose to use a fully defined ERO for both the two LSP?  In this = case I do suppose that the ERO has been calculated by the = NMS?

 

Regards

=


Diego

 

From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin
Sent: domenica 4 marzo = 2007 14.56
To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; Adrian Farrel
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; = Don Fedyk; Igor Bryskin
Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt

 

Adrian and Dimitri,

When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason.  Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to setup a tunnel. The = request may not (and normally does not) contain an explicit path, but it = definitely contains all bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as = I siad,  for a particular reason  (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than = computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration the bandwidth = requirements for both directions?
So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always = knows about bandiwidth in both directions.

I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a communication between management = and control plane should always hapen at one (ingress) node.

Igor

PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcate= l-lucent.be wrote:

"Adrian Farrel"
04/03/2007 00:35
Please respond to "Adrian Farrel"

To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri
PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: , "Don Fedyk"
Subject: Re: I-D = ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


> 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream = flowspec
in
> the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message

That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know =
the
bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on = the
Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the
FlowSpec
on the Path.

-> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt = resource
reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it = would
boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever)

-> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where = flowspec
=3D< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" = and therefore
the flowspec may be adapted

If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, =
then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the =
actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not = worth
trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format.

-> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the = ingress
is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without = major
protocol modifications

-> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't = elevate
the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation = in
a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object = would
prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, = and
provide full flexibility


A





 

 

It's here! Your new message!
Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C75EFD.DB337606-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 22:08:41 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 23:06:05 +0100 Message-ID: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E91ACFB7F@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcddKXr+hyXSYOGqRZ6AohT1OJWGHwBesfpA From: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" To: "Adrian Farrel" , "Don Fedyk" , Cc: Hi all, Please see inline. Regards, Attila=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 1:11 AM > To: Don Fedyk; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt >=20 > Cutting to the chase (I hope): >=20 > >>-> btw, where this requirement come from ? > > [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet. > > > > > > [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ? > > is that specific to Ethernet ? >=20 > 1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical=20 > bidirectional service? >=20 > 1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical=20 > bidirectional LSPs? > (Does 1.b follow from 1.a?) >=20 It would be good to have operators reflect on these. My two cents are that asymmetrical bidirectional services are apparently there. In regards to LSPs carrying highly aggregated traffic in backbones asymmetry might be of less importance, however LSPs getting further out to the edges of the network may have really asymmetrical loads. > > [dp] the issue is threefold > > > > a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not=20 > call for an=20 > > upstream tspec >=20 > 2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate=20 > the bandwidth of the forward flow. > 2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec > 2.b. a FlowSpec >=20 I agree with Don and Igor on this. Having a TSpec there and ending up with "single-sided" LSP control would be not a problem in practice. > > b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir. > > setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler > > > > c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs > > (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating them, we=20 > > have a very efficient technique for this, that does not impact=20 > > intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object) and provides for full=20 > > flexibility (common or diverse spatial path for the upstream and=20 > > downstream flow) >=20 > 3. Even if 1.b. we can consider: > 3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions 3.b. Two=20 > 'associated' signaling exchanges >=20 > Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by=20 > talking about "bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to=20 > revolve around the signaling exchanges. The data plane=20 > presence can be established identically by 3.a. or 3.b. Agree. The target of the ID was to have a discussion on the topic and see if there is interest to add a new *option* (3.a) for asymmetric bidirectional LSP establishment.=20 >=20 > Adrian=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 18:11:03 +0000 Message-ID: <0b5001c75e88$1b65ad40$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" Subject: Agenda slots for CCAMP in Prague Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 17:32:26 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, In San Diego we ran hopelessly out of time and the room was almost unanimous in support of the idea of having a two shot CCAMP meeting in Prague. So that is what we have booked. CCAMP will meet at 9am on Monday morning for 2.5 hours, and at 1pm on Tuesday afternoon for 2 hours. We propose to split the work between working group drafts and milestones, and new material, dedicating one session to each although there may need to be some jiggling to avoid conflicts with other working groups. Please send your requests for agenda slots to Deborah and me as soon as you like (or sooner!). Thanks, Deborah and Adrian Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 13:57:53 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=x0WCWyUT3SdJuabkPnOPOQmwhFSwf0RFMtCR83UssTx1NlOJrBiXeXOG6mJwJjzv2uChHUXXD3dNFu9PE0ce4Mu8Dt9NetB67nc/v1VHSZyaSzKtBDTWnKTsGWKuy88StOjfT0OAJydVRWmlcAKiiX9umf3eIzVhJ2RwJjMCueE=; Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 05:55:30 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be, Adrian Farrel Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk , Igor Bryskin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2031406607-1173016530=:18484" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <169782.18484.qm@web36802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --0-2031406607-1173016530=:18484 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adrian and Dimitri, When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason. Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does not) contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as I siad, for a particular reason (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration the bandwidth requirements for both directions? So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always knows about bandiwidth in both directions. I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a communication between management and control plane should always hapen at one (ingress) node. Igor PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic. Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: "Adrian Farrel" 04/03/2007 00:35 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: , "Don Fedyk" Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec in > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know the bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the FlowSpec on the Path. -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever) -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where flowspec =< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore the flowspec may be adapted If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without major protocol modifications -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation in a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object would prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and provide full flexibility A --------------------------------- It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. --0-2031406607-1173016530=:18484 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adrian and Dimitri,

When a GMPLS tunnel is setup, it is setup for a reason.  Let's say, management plane requests a tunnel ingress node to setup a tunnel. The request may not (and normally does not) contain an explicit path, but it definitely contains all bandwidth parameters, because the tunnel was requested, as I siad,  for a particular reason  (application, SLA, etc.). Also, how else you can ensure the fate sharing other than computing a path on the ingress node taking in consideration the bandwidth requirements for both directions?
So, yes, I'd say that it is safe to assume that ingress node always knows about bandiwidth in both directions.

I'd say even more. We have a strict requirement from our customers that actively deploy our GMPLS CP, that a communication between management and control plane should always hapen at one (ingress) node.

Igor

PS It would be interesting to hear from providers on this topic.

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
"Adrian Farrel"
04/03/2007 00:35
Please respond to "Adrian Farrel"

To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri
PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: , "Don Fedyk"
Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


> 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec
in
> the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message

That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know
the
bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the
Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the
FlowSpec
on the Path.

-> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource
reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would
boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever)

-> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where flowspec
=< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore
the flowspec may be adapted

If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress,
then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the
actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth
trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format.

-> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress
is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without major
protocol modifications

-> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate
the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation in
a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object would
prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and
provide full flexibility


A





It's here! Your new message!
Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. --0-2031406607-1173016530=:18484-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 00:26:55 +0000 To: "Adrian Farrel" Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, "Don Fedyk" , "Igor Bryskin" Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 01:25:43 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" "Adrian Farrel" 04/03/2007 00:35 Please respond to "Adrian Farrel" To: "Igor Bryskin" , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: , "Don Fedyk" Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec in > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know the bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the FlowSpec on the Path. -> if you do that you prevent the ingress-side to never adapt resource reservation to the traffic parameters of the egress (in fact, it would boil down to "single-sided" asymmetry forever) -> hence, initially you must satisfy at least condition where flowspec =< tspec, nevertheless, after the tspec may "increase" and therefore the flowspec may be adapted If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. -> this is what i said also to don, the case where initially the ingress is completely unaware of what it can reserve is impossible without major protocol modifications -> my partial conclusion, is that a workable asym bw lsp doesn't elevate the need for the general case, and only provides apparent facilitation in a corner case, whereas a technique making use of association object would prevent all this protocol massaging, keep full backward compatibility, and provide full flexibility A Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 23:44:12 +0000 Message-ID: <0a6301c75ded$919b12c0$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "Igor Bryskin" , Cc: , "Don Fedyk" Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 23:35:20 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec in > the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message That *does* raise an interesting question. Namely, does the ingress know the bandwidth to request? If it does then there is no need for a TSpec on the Resv as the reservation has already been made commensurate with the FlowSpec on the Path. If the ingress does *not* know and needs to see a TSpec from the egress, then we need another Path exchange after the Resv in order to make the actual reservations. In that case it really would be a mess and not worth trying to shoe-horn into a bidirectional LSP format. A Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 22:44:39 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=f3JxSsQ3xZFDiYAKEgVQOELPknGVNe10SB9FcoDhzUQwPjNWBhXgKsazUhVAa6nk9YtaXv4fEccUWJLWP9YGa/sAxT1YGfZXjiyV29QsV8hi+RXpncL31fhVZ9oH7W5o4LepBE12pAwzAuvE2qnSQCK+6CWYwjsRM4ap9pqIlYE=; Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 14:43:54 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: Adrian Farrel , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1671932405-1172961834=:61415" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <924312.61415.qm@web36811.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --0-1671932405-1172961834=:61415 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, see in-line Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor "If you need to re-route both LSPs, than recovery of a bi-directional LSP will be twice faster than recovery of two unidirectional LSPs." that is clearly not the case. there is no sequential operation(s) in case of unidirectional LSPs, recovery time diff depends on the failure location and notif. propagation, at best they would be equal, otherwise you may have a slight difference (in favor of bi-dir LSP, IB>> True, if you don't need to preserve the fate -sharing, if you do you need to correleate the path selection for both LSPs. but remember that the major reasoning behind bi-dir LSP has always been to facilitate timeslot/lambda selection). IB>> am not sure that I got the rest of your message. Igor the real problem of asym LSPs. compared with sym bidir LSP where it is assumed that bw control is sym. (which is, at the end, the only reason for making this case sensible) the result here with asym bw LSP is that the control of both direction/data paths is concentrated at the head-end, in case the tail-end desires increasing the upstream bw. -d. Igor Bryskin 03/03/2007 21:03 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: Adrian Farrel , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Dimitri, Suppose a link carrying a bi-directional service in one direction fails and you need to perform e2e recovery. Suppose the service is mapped on 2 unidirectional reciprocal LSPs. If you re-route just one LSP you will loose fate sharing. If you need to re-route both LSPs, than recovery of a bi-directional LSP will be twice faster than recovery of two unidirectional LSPs. If fate sharing is a "MUST", I say with reciprocal LSPs you don't have extra flexibility , but you do have extra complexity. Igor Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor 1. treating the LSPs independently is an added value (in terms of flexibility), the sole reason for departing in case of bi-directional LSP was (look at the discussion on the list in 2000) due to a) keeping establishment of data path independent would have led to lambda LSPs with different wavelength in up and downstream direction over different paths b) improve setup and recovery time now, the conditions are totally different, reason why expliciting these is de-facto required in addition to the claim "i have a clear requirement for" that kind of service 2. at the end, the question is whether you need to have for the underlying data paths a) a signaled association on each intermediate node b) a signaled association at the end-points c) no signaled association 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec in the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message the reason is ultra-clear, if you use an upstream tspec as this draft proposes it is equivalent to the dest. (source Rx) telling to the source (Dest Tx) what are traffic characteristics of the data flow that the "sender" (= Dest Tx) will generate hence just telling what the latter knows; hence resulting in requiring to send back over the Resv the adapted upstream tspec, and a third exchange in the form of an upstream flowspec (ok totally irrealistic and completely opposed to the simple and inexpensive method you are looking at) note that any method creates for providing a) creates a real interoperability issue, reason why even a (correct) proposal along the lines of upstream flowspec in the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message did not progress (see e.g. draft-dube, that was partially going into the correct direction) -d. Igor Bryskin 03/03/2007 14:26 To: Adrian Farrel , Don Fedyk , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, Provided that we have 1.a - there is a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional services Ôáõ I tend to agree with Don on this. If implementing a bidirectional service by an association of two reciprocal unidirectional LSPs is so great, then why do we need bi-directional LSPs in the first place? The answer is well recognized: a) the setup is faster; b) the CP state is smaller c) the management is simpler (fate-sharing, recovery, alarm distribution,,,,) d) solution for the opposite direction resource allocation contention problem e) ÔáÖ ThatÔáýs why we decided to introduce Upstream Label and support bi-directional LSPs. The introduction of Upstream T-SPEC/FLOWSPEC seems to me a natural and relatively inexpensive price for preserving the a),b),c)ÔáÖ.. Igor Adrian Farrel wrote: Cutting to the chase (I hope): >>-> btw, where this requirement come from ? > [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet. > > > [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ? > is that specific to Ethernet ? 1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical bidirectional service? 1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs? (Does 1.b follow from 1.a?) > [dp] the issue is threefold > > a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not > call for an upstream tspec 2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate the bandwidth of the forward flow. 2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec 2.b. a FlowSpec > b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir. > setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler > > c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs > (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating > them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that > does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object) > and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial > path for the upstream and downstream flow) 3. Even if 1.b. we can consider: 3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions 3.b. Two 'associated' signaling exchanges Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by talking about "bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to revolve around the signaling exchanges. The data plane presence can be established identically by 3.a. or 3.b. Adrian TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on Yahoo! Answers. --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. --0-1671932405-1172961834=:61415 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, see in-line

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor

"If you need to re-route both LSPs, than recovery of a bi-directional LSP
will be twice faster than recovery of two unidirectional LSPs."

that is clearly not the case. there is no sequential operation(s) in case
of unidirectional LSPs, recovery time diff depends on the failure location
and notif. propagation, at best they would be equal, otherwise you may
have a slight difference (in favor of bi-dir LSP,

IB>> True, if you don't need to preserve the fate -sharing, if you do you need to correleate the path selection for both LSPs.

but remember that the
major reasoning behind bi-dir LSP has always been to facilitate
timeslot/lambda selection).

IB>> am not sure that I got the rest of your message.

Igor
the real problem of asym LSPs. compared with sym bidir LSP where it is
assumed that bw control is sym. (which is, at the end, the only reason for
making this case sensible) the result here with asym bw LSP is that the
control of both direction/data paths is concentrated at the head-end, in
case the tail-end desires increasing the upstream bw.

-d.






Igor Bryskin
03/03/2007 21:03

To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: Adrian Farrel , ccamp@ops.ietf.org,
Don Fedyk
Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Dimitri,

Suppose a link carrying a bi-directional service in one direction fails
and you need to perform e2e recovery. Suppose the service is mapped on 2
unidirectional reciprocal LSPs. If you re-route just one LSP you will
loose fate sharing. If you need to re-route both LSPs, than recovery of a
bi-directional LSP will be twice faster than recovery of two
unidirectional LSPs.
If fate sharing is a "MUST", I say with reciprocal LSPs you don't have
extra flexibility , but you do have extra complexity.

Igor

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor


1. treating the LSPs independently is an added value (in terms of
flexibility), the sole reason for departing in case of bi-directional LSP
was (look at the discussion on the list in 2000) due to a) keeping
establishment of data path independent would have led to lambda LSPs with
different wavelength in up and downstream direction over different paths
b) improve setup and recovery time

now, the conditions are totally different, reason why expliciting these is

de-facto required in addition to the claim "i have a clear requirement
for" that kind of service


2. at the end, the question is whether you need to have for the underlying

data paths

a) a signaled association on each intermediate node

b) a signaled association at the end-points

c) no signaled association


3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec in

the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message

the reason is ultra-clear, if you use an upstream tspec as this draft
proposes it is equivalent to the dest. (source Rx) telling to the source
(Dest Tx) what are traffic characteristics of the data flow that the
"sender" (= Dest Tx) will generate hence just telling what the latter
knows; hence resulting in requiring to send back over the Resv the adapted

upstream tspec, and a third exchange in the form of an upstream flowspec
(ok totally irrealistic and completely opposed to the simple and
inexpensive method you are looking at)

note that any method creates for providing a) creates a real
interoperability issue, reason why even a (correct) proposal along the
lines of upstream flowspec in the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the
Resv message did not progress (see e.g. draft-dube, that was partially
going into the correct direction)

-d.





Igor Bryskin
03/03/2007 14:26

To: Adrian Farrel , Don Fedyk
, Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi,

Provided that we have 1.a - there is a clear requirement for asymmetrical
bidirectional services Ôáõ I tend to agree with Don on this.

If implementing a bidirectional service by an association of two
reciprocal unidirectional LSPs is so great, then why do we need
bi-directional LSPs in the first place? The answer is well recognized:
a) the setup is faster;
b) the CP state is smaller
c) the management is simpler (fate-sharing, recovery, alarm
distribution,,,,)
d) solution for the opposite direction resource allocation contention
problem
e) ÔáÖ

ThatÔáýs why we decided to introduce Upstream Label and support
bi-directional LSPs.
The introduction of Upstream T-SPEC/FLOWSPEC seems to me a natural and
relatively inexpensive price for preserving the a),b),c)ÔáÖ..


Igor
Adrian Farrel wrote:
Cutting to the chase (I hope):

>>-> btw, where this requirement come from ?
> [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet.
>
>
> [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ?
> is that specific to Ethernet ?

1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical bidirectional
service?

1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?
(Does 1.b follow from 1.a?)

> [dp] the issue is threefold
>
> a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not
> call for an upstream tspec

2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate the bandwidth
of
the forward flow.
2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec
2.b. a FlowSpec

> b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir.
> setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler
>
> c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs
> (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating
> them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that
> does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object)
> and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial
> path for the upstream and downstream flow)

3. Even if 1.b. we can consider:
3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions
3.b. Two 'associated' signaling exchanges

Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by talking about
"bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to revolve around the
signaling
exchanges. The data plane presence can be established identically by 3.a.
or
3.b.

Adrian




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Search weather shortcut. --0-1671932405-1172961834=:61415-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 21:54:01 +0000 To: Igor Bryskin Cc: Adrian Farrel , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 22:52:14 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="KOI8-R" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 aWdvcg0KDQoiSWYgeW91IG5lZWQgdG8gcmUtcm91dGUgYm90aCBMU1BzLCB0aGFuIHJlY292ZXJ5 IG9mIGEgYmktZGlyZWN0aW9uYWwgTFNQIA0Kd2lsbCBiZSB0d2ljZSBmYXN0ZXIgdGhhbiByZWNv dmVyeSBvZiB0d28gdW5pZGlyZWN0aW9uYWwgTFNQcy4iDQoNCnRoYXQgaXMgY2xlYXJseSBub3Qg dGhlIGNhc2UuIHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIHNlcXVlbnRpYWwgb3BlcmF0aW9uKHMpIGluIGNhc2UgDQpv ZiB1bmlkaXJlY3Rpb25hbCBMU1BzLCByZWNvdmVyeSB0aW1lIGRpZmYgZGVwZW5kcyBvbiB0aGUg ZmFpbHVyZSBsb2NhdGlvbiANCmFuZCBub3RpZi4gcHJvcGFnYXRpb24sIGF0IGJlc3QgdGhleSB3 b3VsZCBiZSBlcXVhbCwgb3RoZXJ3aXNlIHlvdSBtYXkgDQpoYXZlIGEgc2xpZ2h0IGRpZmZlcmVu 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ZXI/IEdldCBvbmUgaW4gbWludXRlcyBmcm9tIHBlb3BsZSB3aG8ga25vdy4gQXNrIHlvdXIgDQpx dWVzdGlvbiBvbiBZYWhvbyEgQW5zd2Vycy4NCg0K Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 20:05:28 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=akjxqABzWM9XDKhixF833sKXm5V4Zq4rnNVJr6HZK1m5qZO62DrOUx+aEgM0m1BjaGTXOoW9vIR/ChyzbVv+/6jOKF7sIBuKWMTvS30WawthnNI3xKKJqkIOMJ0ZEGSLRBuzis1aaR1IDIEt92+2WCalAxDUDkvnbS4l5vodPD0=; Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 12:03:15 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt To: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: Adrian Farrel , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-478059516-1172952195=:32586" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <505574.32586.qm@web36801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --0-478059516-1172952195=:32586 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri, Suppose a link carrying a bi-directional service in one direction fails and you need to perform e2e recovery. Suppose the service is mapped on 2 unidirectional reciprocal LSPs. If you re-route just one LSP you will loose fate sharing. If you need to re-route both LSPs, than recovery of a bi-directional LSP will be twice faster than recovery of two unidirectional LSPs. If fate sharing is a "MUST", I say with reciprocal LSPs you don't have extra flexibility , but you do have extra complexity. Igor Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote: igor 1. treating the LSPs independently is an added value (in terms of flexibility), the sole reason for departing in case of bi-directional LSP was (look at the discussion on the list in 2000) due to a) keeping establishment of data path independent would have led to lambda LSPs with different wavelength in up and downstream direction over different paths b) improve setup and recovery time now, the conditions are totally different, reason why expliciting these is de-facto required in addition to the claim "i have a clear requirement for" that kind of service 2. at the end, the question is whether you need to have for the underlying data paths a) a signaled association on each intermediate node b) a signaled association at the end-points c) no signaled association 3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec in the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message the reason is ultra-clear, if you use an upstream tspec as this draft proposes it is equivalent to the dest. (source Rx) telling to the source (Dest Tx) what are traffic characteristics of the data flow that the "sender" (= Dest Tx) will generate hence just telling what the latter knows; hence resulting in requiring to send back over the Resv the adapted upstream tspec, and a third exchange in the form of an upstream flowspec (ok totally irrealistic and completely opposed to the simple and inexpensive method you are looking at) note that any method creates for providing a) creates a real interoperability issue, reason why even a (correct) proposal along the lines of upstream flowspec in the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message did not progress (see e.g. draft-dube, that was partially going into the correct direction) -d. Igor Bryskin 03/03/2007 14:26 To: Adrian Farrel , Don Fedyk , Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi, Provided that we have 1.a - there is a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional services тАУ I tend to agree with Don on this. If implementing a bidirectional service by an association of two reciprocal unidirectional LSPs is so great, then why do we need bi-directional LSPs in the first place? The answer is well recognized: a) the setup is faster; b) the CP state is smaller c) the management is simpler (fate-sharing, recovery, alarm distribution,,,,) d) solution for the opposite direction resource allocation contention problem e) тАж ThatтАЩs why we decided to introduce Upstream Label and support bi-directional LSPs. The introduction of Upstream T-SPEC/FLOWSPEC seems to me a natural and relatively inexpensive price for preserving the a),b),c)тАж.. Igor Adrian Farrel wrote: Cutting to the chase (I hope): >>-> btw, where this requirement come from ? > [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet. > > > [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ? > is that specific to Ethernet ? 1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical bidirectional service? 1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs? (Does 1.b follow from 1.a?) > [dp] the issue is threefold > > a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not > call for an upstream tspec 2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate the bandwidth of the forward flow. 2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec 2.b. a FlowSpec > b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir. > setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler > > c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs > (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating > them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that > does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object) > and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial > path for the upstream and downstream flow) 3. Even if 1.b. we can consider: 3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions 3.b. Two 'associated' signaling exchanges Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by talking about "bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to revolve around the signaling exchanges. The data plane presence can be established identically by 3.a. or 3.b. Adrian TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. --------------------------------- Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on Yahoo! Answers. --0-478059516-1172952195=:32586 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dimitri,

Suppose a link carrying a bi-directional service in one direction fails and you need to perform e2e recovery. Suppose the service is mapped on 2 unidirectional reciprocal LSPs. If you re-route just one LSP you will loose fate sharing. If you need to re-route both LSPs, than recovery of a bi-directional LSP will be twice faster than recovery of two unidirectional LSPs.
If fate sharing is a "MUST", I say with reciprocal LSPs  you don't have extra flexibility , but you do have extra complexity.

Igor

Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be wrote:
igor


1. treating the LSPs independently is an added value (in terms of
flexibility), the sole reason for departing in case of bi-directional LSP
was (look at the discussion on the list in 2000) due to a) keeping
establishment of data path independent would have led to lambda LSPs with
different wavelength in up and downstream direction over different paths
b) improve setup and recovery time

now, the conditions are totally different, reason why expliciting these is
de-facto required in addition to the claim "i have a clear requirement
for" that kind of service


2. at the end, the question is whether you need to have for the underlying
data paths

a) a signaled association on each intermediate node

b) a signaled association at the end-points

c) no signaled association


3. if a) is selected there is no other choice than an upstream flowspec in
the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the Resv message

the reason is ultra-clear, if you use an upstream tspec as this draft
proposes it is equivalent to the dest. (source Rx) telling to the source
(Dest Tx) what are traffic characteristics of the data flow that the
"sender" (= Dest Tx) will generate hence just telling what the latter
knows; hence resulting in requiring to send back over the Resv the adapted
upstream tspec, and a third exchange in the form of an upstream flowspec
(ok totally irrealistic and completely opposed to the simple and
inexpensive method you are looking at)

note that any method creates for providing a) creates a real
interoperability issue, reason why even a (correct) proposal along the
lines of upstream flowspec in the Path msg and a upstream tspec in the
Resv message did not progress (see e.g. draft-dube, that was partially
going into the correct direction)

-d.





Igor Bryskin
03/03/2007 14:26

To: Adrian Farrel , Don Fedyk
, Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL
cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt


Hi,

Provided that we have 1.a - there is a clear requirement for asymmetrical
bidirectional services тАУ I tend to agree with Don on this.

If implementing a bidirectional service by an association of two
reciprocal unidirectional LSPs is so great, then why do we need
bi-directional LSPs in the first place? The answer is well recognized:
a) the setup is faster;
b) the CP state is smaller
c) the management is simpler (fate-sharing, recovery, alarm
distribution,,,,)
d) solution for the opposite direction resource allocation contention
problem
e) тАж

ThatтАЩs why we decided to introduce Upstream Label and support
bi-directional LSPs.
The introduction of Upstream T-SPEC/FLOWSPEC seems to me a natural and
relatively inexpensive price for preserving the a),b),c)тАж..


Igor
Adrian Farrel wrote:
Cutting to the chase (I hope):

>>-> btw, where this requirement come from ?
> [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet.
>
>
> [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ?
> is that specific to Ethernet ?

1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical bidirectional
service?

1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?
(Does 1.b follow from 1.a?)

> [dp] the issue is threefold
>
> a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not
> call for an upstream tspec

2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate the bandwidth
of
the forward flow.
2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec
2.b. a FlowSpec

> b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir.
> setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler
>
> c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs
> (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating
> them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that
> does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object)
> and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial
> path for the upstream and downstream flow)

3. Even if 1.b. we can consider:
3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions
3.b. Two 'associated' signaling exchanges

Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by talking about
"bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to revolve around the
signaling
exchanges. The data plane presence can be established identically by 3.a.
or
3.b.

Adrian




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Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on Yahoo! Answers. --0-478059516-1172952195=:32586-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 16:56:14 +0000 To: Igor Bryskin Cc: Adrian Farrel , ccamp@ops.ietf.org, Don Fedyk Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 17:53:25 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 aWdvcg0KDQoNCjEuIHRyZWF0aW5nIHRoZSBMU1BzIGluZGVwZW5kZW50bHkgaXMgYW4gYWRkZWQg dmFsdWUgKGluIHRlcm1zIG9mIA0KZmxleGliaWxpdHkpLCB0aGUgc29sZSByZWFzb24gZm9yIGRl cGFydGluZyBpbiBjYXNlIG9mIGJpLWRpcmVjdGlvbmFsIExTUCANCndhcyAobG9vayBhdCB0aGUg ZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvbiB0aGUgbGlzdCBpbiAyMDAwKSBkdWUgdG8gYSkga2VlcGluZyANCmVzdGFi bGlzaG1lbnQgb2YgZGF0YSBwYXRoIGluZGVwZW5kZW50IHdvdWxkIGhhdmUgbGVkIHRvIGxhbWJk YSBMU1BzIHdpdGggDQpkaWZmZXJlbnQgd2F2ZWxlbmd0aCBpbiB1cCBhbmQgZG93bnN0cmVhbSBk aXJlY3Rpb24gb3ZlciBkaWZmZXJlbnQgcGF0aHMgDQpiKSBpbXByb3ZlIHNldHVwIGFuZCByZWNv 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h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=VaG/p8zM9cInaMlLe9HdQRvCbjdmfh0Z/cD059Qur25H1hyG/ttMHM5WJqT6GpkGVnnMn4732wgYD6w5Dr5AZpNcJ/OpUR6/noWuYCyti8z52+FDpveQkZqLZSfpQXqvG2K6kOOjExO4SpJrtPCz+s20b/aDoMfVMxY0o8ApvlU= ; Message-ID: <20070303132653.1859.qmail@web36803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 05:26:53 -0800 (PST) From: Igor Bryskin Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt To: Adrian Farrel , Don Fedyk , Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-642856478-1172928413=:1739" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-642856478-1172928413=:1739 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, Provided that we have 1.a - there is a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional services – I tend to agree with Don on this. If implementing a bidirectional service by an association of two reciprocal unidirectional LSPs is so great, then why do we need bi-directional LSPs in the first place? The answer is well recognized: a) the setup is faster; b) the CP state is smaller c) the management is simpler (fate-sharing, recovery, alarm distribution,,,,) d) solution for the opposite direction resource allocation contention problem e) … That’s why we decided to introduce Upstream Label and support bi-directional LSPs. The introduction of Upstream T-SPEC/FLOWSPEC seems to me a natural and relatively inexpensive price for preserving the a),b),c)….. Igor Adrian Farrel wrote: Cutting to the chase (I hope): >>-> btw, where this requirement come from ? > [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet. > > > [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ? > is that specific to Ethernet ? 1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical bidirectional service? 1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs? (Does 1.b follow from 1.a?) > [dp] the issue is threefold > > a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not > call for an upstream tspec 2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate the bandwidth of the forward flow. 2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec 2.b. a FlowSpec > b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir. > setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler > > c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs > (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating > them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that > does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object) > and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial > path for the upstream and downstream flow) 3. Even if 1.b. we can consider: 3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions 3.b. Two 'associated' signaling exchanges Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by talking about "bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to revolve around the signaling exchanges. The data plane presence can be established identically by 3.a. or 3.b. Adrian --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. --0-642856478-1172928413=:1739 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi,

Provided that we have 1.a - there is a clear requirement for  asymmetrical bidirectional services – I tend to agree with Don on this.
 
If implementing a bidirectional service by an association of two reciprocal unidirectional LSPs is so great, then why do we need bi-directional LSPs in the first place? The answer is well recognized:
a)      the setup is faster;
b)      the CP state is smaller
c)      the management is simpler (fate-sharing, recovery, alarm distribution,,,,)
d)      solution for the opposite direction resource allocation contention problem
e)      …
 
That’s why we decided to introduce Upstream Label and support bi-directional LSPs.
The introduction of Upstream T-SPEC/FLOWSPEC seems to me a natural and relatively inexpensive price for preserving the a),b),c)…..
 
 
Igor
Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
Cutting to the chase (I hope):

>>-> btw, where this requirement come from ?
> [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet.
>
>
> [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ?
> is that specific to Ethernet ?

1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical bidirectional
service?

1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs?
(Does 1.b follow from 1.a?)

> [dp] the issue is threefold
>
> a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not
> call for an upstream tspec

2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate the bandwidth of
the forward flow.
2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec
2.b. a FlowSpec

> b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir.
> setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler
>
> c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs
> (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating
> them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that
> does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object)
> and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial
> path for the upstream and downstream flow)

3. Even if 1.b. we can consider:
3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions
3.b. Two 'associated' signaling exchanges

Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by talking about
"bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to revolve around the signaling
exchanges. The data plane presence can be established identically by 3.a. or
3.b.

Adrian




TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. --0-642856478-1172928413=:1739-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 00:12:03 +0000 Message-ID: <094901c75d28$78d94b50$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "Don Fedyk" , Cc: Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 00:10:57 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cutting to the chase (I hope): >>-> btw, where this requirement come from ? > [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet. > > > [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ? > is that specific to Ethernet ? 1.a. Do we have a clear requirement for an asymmetrical bidirectional service? 1.b. Do we have a clear requirement for asymmetrical bidirectional LSPs? (Does 1.b follow from 1.a?) > [dp] the issue is threefold > > a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not > call for an upstream tspec 2. If 1.b, what should we use on a Path message to indicate the bandwidth of the forward flow. 2.a. an 'upstream' TSpec 2.b. a FlowSpec > b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir. > setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler > > c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs > (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating > them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that > does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object) > and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial > path for the upstream and downstream flow) 3. Even if 1.b. we can consider: 3.a. A single signaling exchange for both directions 3.b. Two 'associated' signaling exchanges Personally, I think that the discussion is confused by talking about "bidirectional LSPs". The issue really seems to revolve around the signaling exchanges. The data plane presence can be established identically by 3.a. or 3.b. Adrian Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 23:57:51 +0000 To: "Don Fedyk" Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 00:56:09 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" hi don see inline >"Don Fedyk" 02/03/2007 17:44 > To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL, > >Hi Dimitri > >Please see inline: >> -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org >> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be >> >> let's go back to basic >> >> per RFC 3471 >> >> "4. Bidirectional LSPs >> >> This section defines direct support of bidirectional >> LSPs. Support is defined for LSPs that have the same >> traffic engineering requirements including fate >> sharing, protection and restoration, LSRs, and resource >> requirements (e.g., latency and jitter) in each >> direction." >> >> what does it mean in practice that Path msg can carry a >> TSPEC and the Resv a FLOWSPEC, and still allow for >> establishment of two data paths (upstream & downstream) >> >> [...] >> >> "With bidirectional LSPs both the downstream and upstream >> data paths, i.e., from initiator to terminator and >> terminator to initiator, they are established using a >> single set of signaling messages." >> >> in brief, a single msg exchange for two data paths >> (upstream & downstream) >> >> but if you change the initial condition and still be >> somehow respectful of the RSVP operation >> >> the path msg shall carry an (upstream) FLOWSPEC and >> (downstream) TSPEC and not a downstream TSPEC and a >> (default) TSPEC, but now you got the real issue of >> carrying a FLOWSPEC in a Path msg ??? > >Well we have with GMPLS that a Path message with a single >TSPEC for both upstream and downstream and in a Resv message >a single FLOWSPEC for both upstream and downstream is >available today. > >-> well, the problem is that in bi-dir. symmetric LSPs, >there is no "upstream flowspec" because redundant with the >tspec values, hence, symmetry allows for simplification > >This draft proposes that that single TSPEC can be split into >an upstream and downstream component. > >-> that is impossible, there is no upstream and dowstream >component to the tspec (the source is not the Tx for both >components) [DF]I don't see this a big issue in the case of GMPLS. [dp] well see below >The FLOWSPEC is proabably redundant in this case. > >-> simple, the problem is that we're going to have an object >that does not make any sense in Path msg (or any other >"name" we will find for it) [DF] my understanding is it is already there. It seems odd to me to follow the reasoning that says it is OK for symmetric BW to have the object but deny it for asymmetric BW. [dp] step 1: unidir LSP between A-B: Tx ----> Rx tspec A->B (Path), flowspec B->A (Resv) [dp] step 2: sym bidir LSP between A-B: Tx ----> Rx Rx <---- Tx but tspec A->B (Path) == flowspec A->B (Resv) and flowspec B->A (Resv) == tspec B->A (Path) in brief, tspec A->B (Path) acts as is floswpec A->B (Resv) was sent from A to B (for upstream data path) [dp] step 3: asymmetric bidir LSP A-B: w/ tspec A->B (Path) =/= flowspec A->B (Resv) and flowspec B->A (Resv) =/= tspec B->A (Path) therefore, you need tspec A->B & flowspec A->B (in Path) and flowspec B->A & tspec B->A (in Resv) >> hence, better forget about this idea and look at a simple >> extensions consisting in linking two uni-directional LSP >> with an association oject >> > >The requirement is one Path message for a bidirectional path >with asymmetric bandwidth. In GMPLS we already have one Path >message for a path with symmetric bandwidth. The requirement >is to signal this all from the upstream end. > >-> btw, where this requirement come from ? [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet. [dp] i think i should be more precise WHY this specific req ? is that specific to Ethernet ? or to PBB-TE probably ;-) >The question is: Do we make simple extensions to GMPLS >signaling or go to uni-directional LSPs and define the >procedures to associate bi-directional labels that have been >set up with two associated sessions? > >-> the question is more basic, there is no reason, to >contortionate the protocol to find a solution here (full >flexibility without any backward compatibility issue) > [DF] RFC 3945 Section 7.10. Bi-directional LSP: makes all the arguments for a single LSP setup. Besides RSVP-TE is extensible as well so the additional object will not show up unless it is GMPLS and unless it involves a technology that supports asymmetrical bandwidth. I don't see the issue. [dp] the issue is threefold a) you will see from the above that asym bi-dir LSP do not call for an upstream tspec b) the gain compared to the cost of having a real bi-dir. setup is so low that setting unidir LSP is simpler c) but there is an operational issue in linking two LSPs (asymmetric) together that one could think of associating them, we have a very efficient technique for this, that does not impact intermediate nodes (ASSOCIATION object) and provides for full flexibility (common or diverse spatial path for the upstream and downstream flow) thanks, - d. Regards, Don >thanks, -d. > >While I have not added up the changes to compare the >differences it sure seems like processing an upstream and >downs stream TSPEC in a path message is a smaller delta than >defining all the procedures for associated LSPs. > >Regards, Don > > > Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 21:24:42 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 16:21:35 -0500 Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DD9915B@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: Acdc7R5m4DpcofGnQm21JY1TtdtKjwAIpeZQ From: "Don Fedyk" To: Cc: Hi Dimitri See inline [DF] >hi don > >"Don Fedyk" 02/03/2007 17:44 > To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL, > >Hi Dimitri=20 > >Please see inline: >> -----Original Message----- From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org >> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be >>=20 >> let's go back to basic >>=20 >> per RFC 3471 >>=20 >> "4. Bidirectional LSPs >>=20 >> This section defines direct support of bidirectional >> LSPs. Support is defined for LSPs that have the same >> traffic engineering requirements including fate >> sharing, protection and restoration, LSRs, and resource >> requirements (e.g., latency and jitter) in each >> direction." >>=20 >> what does it mean in practice that Path msg can carry a >> TSPEC and the Resv a FLOWSPEC, and still allow for >> establishment of two data paths (upstream & downstream) >>=20 >> [...] >>=20 >> "With bidirectional LSPs both the downstream and upstream >> data paths, i.e., from initiator to terminator and >> terminator to initiator, they are established using a >> single set of signaling messages." >>=20 >> in brief, a single msg exchange for two data paths >> (upstream & downstream) >>=20 >> but if you change the initial condition and still be >> somehow respectful of the RSVP operation >>=20 >> the path msg shall carry an (upstream) FLOWSPEC and >> (downstream) TSPEC and not a downstream TSPEC and a >> (default) TSPEC, but now you got the real issue of >> carrying a FLOWSPEC in a Path msg ???=20 > >Well we have with GMPLS that a Path message with a single >TSPEC for both upstream and downstream and in a Resv message >a single FLOWSPEC for both upstream and downstream is >available today.=20 > >-> well, the problem is that in bi-dir. symmetric LSPs, >there is no "upstream flowspec" because redundant with the >tspec values, hence, symmetry allows for simplification > >This draft proposes that that single TSPEC can be split into >an upstream and downstream component.=20 > >-> that is impossible, there is no upstream and dowstream >component to the tspec (the source is not the Tx for both >components) [DF]I don't see this a big issue in the case of GMPLS.=20 > >The FLOWSPEC is proabably redundant in this case. > >-> simple, the problem is that we're going to have an object >that does not make any sense in Path msg (or any other >"name" we will find for it) [DF] my understanding is it is already there. It seems odd to me to follow the reasoning that says it is OK for symmetric BW to have the object but deny it for asymmetric BW.=20 >=20 >> hence, better forget about this idea and look at a simple >> extensions consisting in linking two uni-directional LSP >> with an association oject >>=20 > >The requirement is one Path message for a bidirectional path >with asymmetric bandwidth. In GMPLS we already have one Path >message for a path with symmetric bandwidth. The requirement >is to signal this all from the upstream end.=20 > >-> btw, where this requirement come from ?=20 [DF] Specifically GMPLS control of Ethernet. =20 > >The question is: Do we make simple extensions to GMPLS >signaling or go to uni-directional LSPs and define the >procedures to associate bi-directional labels that have been >set up with two associated sessions?=20 > >-> the question is more basic, there is no reason, to >contortionate the protocol to find a solution here (full >flexibility without any backward compatibility issue) > [DF] RFC 3945 Section 7.10. Bi-directional LSP: makes all the arguments for a single LSP setup. Besides RSVP-TE is extensible as well so the additional object will not show up unless it is GMPLS and unless it involves a technology that supports asymmetrical bandwidth. I don't see the issue. =20 Regards, Don=20 >thanks, -d. > >While I have not added up the changes to compare the >differences it sure seems like processing an upstream and >downs stream TSPEC in a path message is a smaller delta than >defining all the procedures for associated LSPs.=20 > >Regards, Don > > > Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 17:07:07 +0000 To: "Don Fedyk" Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 18:06:23 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" hi don "Don Fedyk" 02/03/2007 17:44 To: Dimitri PAPADIMITRIOU/BE/ALCATEL@ALCATEL, cc: Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Hi Dimitri Please see inline: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be > > let's go back to basic > > per RFC 3471 > > "4. Bidirectional LSPs > > This section defines direct support of bidirectional LSPs. Support > is defined for LSPs that have the same traffic engineering > requirements including fate sharing, protection and restoration, > LSRs, and resource requirements (e.g., latency and jitter) in each > direction." > > what does it mean in practice that Path msg can carry a TSPEC and the > Resv a FLOWSPEC, and still allow for establishment of two data paths > (upstream & downstream) > > [...] > > "With bidirectional LSPs both the downstream and upstream data paths, > i.e., from initiator to terminator and terminator to > initiator, they > are established using a single set of signaling messages." > > in brief, a single msg exchange for two data paths (upstream > & downstream) > > but if you change the initial condition and still be somehow > respectful > of the RSVP operation > > the path msg shall carry an (upstream) FLOWSPEC and (downstream) TSPEC > and not a downstream TSPEC and a (default) TSPEC, but now you got the > real issue of carrying a FLOWSPEC in a Path msg ??? Well we have with GMPLS that a Path message with a single TSPEC for both upstream and downstream and in a Resv message a single FLOWSPEC for both upstream and downstream is available today. -> well, the problem is that in bi-dir. symmetric LSPs, there is no "upstream flowspec" because redundant with the tspec values, hence, symmetry allows for simplification This draft proposes that that single TSPEC can be split into an upstream and downstream component. -> that is impossible, there is no upstream and dowstream component to the tspec (the source is not the Tx for both components) The FLOWSPEC is proabably redundant in this case. -> simple, the problem is that we're going to have an object that does not make any sense in Path msg (or any other "name" we will find for it) > hence, better forget about this idea and look at a simple extensions > consisting in linking two uni-directional LSP with an association > oject > The requirement is one Path message for a bidirectional path with asymmetric bandwidth. In GMPLS we already have one Path message for a path with symmetric bandwidth. The requirement is to signal this all from the upstream end. -> btw, where this requirement come from ? The question is: Do we make simple extensions to GMPLS signaling or go to uni-directional LSPs and define the procedures to associate bi-directional labels that have been set up with two associated sessions? -> the question is more basic, there is no reason, to contortionate the protocol to find a solution here (full flexibility without any backward compatibility issue) thanks, -d. While I have not added up the changes to compare the differences it sure seems like processing an upstream and downs stream TSPEC in a path message is a smaller delta than defining all the procedures for associated LSPs. Regards, Don Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 16:47:29 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 11:44:42 -0500 Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA40DD987C2@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdcoBcJJPehlr2/TIyJlJB9RsUsXAANtJiw From: "Don Fedyk" To: , Hi Dimitri=20 Please see inline: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20 > Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be >=20 > let's go back to basic >=20 > per RFC 3471 >=20 > "4. Bidirectional LSPs >=20 > This section defines direct support of bidirectional LSPs. Support > is defined for LSPs that have the same traffic engineering > requirements including fate sharing, protection and restoration, > LSRs, and resource requirements (e.g., latency and jitter) in each > direction." >=20 > what does it mean in practice that Path msg can carry a TSPEC and the=20 > Resv a FLOWSPEC, and still allow for establishment of two data paths > (upstream & downstream) >=20 > [...] >=20 > "With bidirectional LSPs both the downstream and upstream data paths, > i.e., from initiator to terminator and terminator to=20 > initiator, they > are established using a single set of signaling messages." >=20 > in brief, a single msg exchange for two data paths (upstream=20 > & downstream) >=20 > but if you change the initial condition and still be somehow=20 > respectful > of the RSVP operation >=20 > the path msg shall carry an (upstream) FLOWSPEC and (downstream) TSPEC > and not a downstream TSPEC and a (default) TSPEC, but now you got the=20 > real issue of carrying a FLOWSPEC in a Path msg ???=20 Well we have with GMPLS that a Path message with a single TSPEC for both upstream and downstream and in a Resv message a single FLOWSPEC for both upstream and downstream is available today.=20 This draft proposes that that single TSPEC can be split into an upstream and downstream component. The FLOWSPEC is proabably redundant in this case. >=20 > hence, better forget about this idea and look at a simple extensions > consisting in linking two uni-directional LSP with an association=20 > oject >=20 The requirement is one Path message for a bidirectional path with asymmetric bandwidth. In GMPLS we already have one Path message for a path with symmetric bandwidth. The requirement is to signal this all from the upstream end. The question is: Do we make simple extensions to GMPLS signaling or go to uni-directional LSPs and define the procedures to associate bi-directional labels that have been set up with two associated sessions? =20 While I have not added up the changes to compare the differences it sure seems like processing an upstream and downs stream TSPEC in a path message is a smaller delta than defining all the procedures for associated LSPs.=20 Regards, Don=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 07:42:24 +0000 To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 08:40:29 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" let's go back to basic per RFC 3471 "4. Bidirectional LSPs This section defines direct support of bidirectional LSPs. Support is defined for LSPs that have the same traffic engineering requirements including fate sharing, protection and restoration, LSRs, and resource requirements (e.g., latency and jitter) in each direction." what does it mean in practice that Path msg can carry a TSPEC and the Resv a FLOWSPEC, and still allow for establishment of two data paths (upstream & downstream) [...] "With bidirectional LSPs both the downstream and upstream data paths, i.e., from initiator to terminator and terminator to initiator, they are established using a single set of signaling messages." in brief, a single msg exchange for two data paths (upstream & downstream) but if you change the initial condition and still be somehow respectful of the RSVP operation the path msg shall carry an (upstream) FLOWSPEC and (downstream) TSPEC and not a downstream TSPEC and a (default) TSPEC, but now you got the real issue of carrying a FLOWSPEC in a Path msg ??? hence, better forget about this idea and look at a simple extensions consisting in linking two uni-directional LSP with an association oject ps: the document includes in many places "marketing-like" statements completely - examples " The limitation of symmetrical resource requirements may pose difficulties for operators to efficiently support the services foreseen for next generation networks." pls give us a break with all the hype and hubub about "services foreseen for next generation networks" "Means must be provided by higher layer entities, e.g., the network management system (NMS), to correlate the LSPs not just from RSVP-TE but also from an OAM point of view. " which OAM ??? never heard someone complaining when using MPLS-BFD where is the proof point ? "Additionally, translation functionality may be required to provide operators with a service oriented bidirectional abstraction hiding the complex control plane operation." could you speak with an IETF language please, this sentence just mean nothing thanks, -d. Internet-Drafts@ietf.org 27/02/2007 21:50 Please respond to internet-drafts To: i-d-announce@ietf.org cc: Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : GMPLS RSVP-TE extension in support of bidirectional LSPs with Author(s) : A. Takacs, et al. Filename : draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt Pages : 8 Date : 2007-2-27 GMPLS provides general connection control functionality supporting different network technologies. This memo specifies a further generalization to support bidirectional LSPs with asymmetric requirements. The extension improves the flexibility of bidirectional LSP establishment and at the same time simplifies the control and management of asymmetric services. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. ftp://anonymous@ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-takacs-asym-bw-lsp-00.txt _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 23:50:51 +0000 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt Message-Id: Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 18:50:02 -0500 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : Label Switched Path Stitching with Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching Traffic Engineering (GMPLS TE) Author(s) : A. Ayyangar, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2007-3-1 In certain scenarios, there may be a need to combine together several Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switched Paths (LSPs) such that a single end-to-end (e2e) LSP is realized and all traffic from one constituent LSP is switched onto the next LSP. We will refer to this as "LSP stitching", the key requirement being that a constituent LSP not be allocated to more than one e2e LSP. The constituent LSPs will be referred to as "LSP segments" (S-LSPs). This document describes extensions to the existing GMPLS signaling protocol (RSVP-TE) to establish e2e LSPs created from from S-LSPs, and describes how the LSPs can be managed using the GMPLS signaling and routing protocols. It may be possible to configure a GMPLS node to switch the traffic from an LSP for which it is the egress, to another LSP for which it is the ingress, without requiring any signaling or routing extensions whatsoever, completely transparent to other nodes. This will also result in LSP stitching in the data plane. However, this document does not cover this scenario of LSP stitching. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-1151329.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching-05.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-1151329.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 23:43:48 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75C5B.2661B6D1" Subject: Next steps for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 18:41:34 -0500 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Next steps for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown-01.txt.... thread-index: AcdcWyVNrEVd1Fz2RHeB0X1gu8LT2Q== From: "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" To: "Adrian Farrel" , "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" , "Dimitri Papadimitriou" Cc: , "Jean Philippe Vasseur \(jvasseur\)" , "Anca Zamfir \(ancaz\)" DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=3089; t=1172792498; x=1173656498; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=zali@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Zafar=20Ali=20\(zali\)=22=20 |Subject:=20Next=20steps=20for=20draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-graceful-shutdown- 01.txt.... |Sender:=20 |To:=20=22Adrian=20Farrel=22=20,=0A=20=20=20=20=20=2 0=20=20=22Brungard,=20Deborah=20A,=20ALABS=22=20,=0A=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=22Dimitri=20Papadimitriou=22=20; bh=oLzh5z9apm4YMVp1LmXI9GOCSEGBpmsdqJAvMye6e+Q=; b=fqz5jKd9KGchEyivw4Qn8Ba/0TEpuTpbXwB/KK+tA52ZHkcKGuu/yw0wFkMc9u+zGYYpoIvY QMGTbhs+Di9z8Rf79jbyjmBmRIWBPKWEjGEOybgFMQJHNH0dmm5MJ7QV; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=zali@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75C5B.2661B6D1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Adrian, Deborah, Dimitri, and campers- =20 =20 As we mentioned at the last IETF meeting, http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06nov/slides/ccamp-17/sld1.htm, we have addressed all outstanding comments, except the following comment from Dimitri, related to this ID. Should you have any further comment, please share.=20 =20 The only remaining comment that is not closed is "should this ID be informational or standard track". IMO the ID defines a new error-subcode and some specific behavior, and should be standard track. Can you please comment on this.=20 =20 The ID has been stable for quite some time and following the closure of the above, we would like to request last call.=20 =20 Thanks =20 Regards... Zafar =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75C5B.2661B6D1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi = Adrian,=20 Deborah, Dimitri, and campers-  
 
As we = mentioned at=20 the last IETF meeting, = http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06nov/slides/ccamp-17/sld1.htm,=20 we have addressed all outstanding comments, except the following comment = from=20 Dimitri, related to this ID. Should you have any further comment, = please=20 share.
 
The = only remaining=20 comment that is not closed is "should this ID be informational or = standard=20 track". IMO the ID defines a new error-subcode and some = specific=20 behavior, and should be standard track. Can you please comment on=20 this. 
 
The ID = has been=20 stable for quite some time and following the closure of the above, = we would=20 like to request last call. 
 
Thanks
 
Regards... Zafar=20  
------_=_NextPart_001_01C75C5B.2661B6D1-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 20:51:09 +0000 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt Message-Id: Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 15:50:02 -0500 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. Title : Inter domain Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering - RSVP-TE extensions Author(s) : A. Ayyangar, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2007-3-1 This document describes procedures and protocol extensions for the use of Resource ReserVation Protocol Traffic Engineering (RSVP-TE) signaling in Multiprotocol Label Switching Traffic Engineering (MPLS-TE) packet networks and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) packet and non-packet networks to support the establishment and maintenance of Label Switched Paths that cross domain boundaries. For the purpose of this document, a domain is considered to be any collection of network elements within a common realm of address space or path computation responsibility. Examples of such domains include Autonomous Systems, IGP routing areas, and GMPLS overlay networks. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-1111145.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-05.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-3-1111145.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 19:51:34 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Review comments on draft-ietf-pce-disco-proto-isis-02.txt from ISIS WG Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 20:48:53 +0100 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Review comments on draft-ietf-pce-disco-proto-isis-02.txt from ISIS WG Thread-Index: AcdQ9GI+c99qgvstR7+om7JHEHjxDQLQVytw From: "LE ROUX Jean-Louis RD-CORE-LAN" To: , , , Hi Mike, Thanks for these comments. Please see inline, > -----Message d'origine----- > De : owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel > Envoy=E9 : jeudi 15 f=E9vrier 2007 12:10 > =C0 : ccamp@ops.ietf.org > Objet : Review comments on=20 > draft-ietf-pce-disco-proto-isis-02.txt from ISIS WG >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mike shand" > To: "Adrian Farrel" > Cc: ; "'Jean Philippe Vasseur'" > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:47 AM > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] PCE working group last call on=20 > draft-ietf-pce-disco-proto-isis-02.txt >=20 >=20 > > Adrian, JP, > > > > > > A few comments below, mostly typos. > > > > Mike > > > > > > General comment... sometimes the document refers to octets and=20 > > sometimes to bytes. It would be preferable to use a=20 > consistent term throughout. OK > > > > > > > > Abstract > > > > > > along with some of information that can be used for PCE=20 > selection. > > > > > > some of THE information > > > > or > > > > some information OK > > > > 1. Terminology > > > > ABR is not a commonly used term in the context of IS-IS and doesn't=20 > > appear to be referenced in the document. OK > > > > domain. This definition is different from that commonly used for=20 > > IS-IS. Is there a reason for the difference? The document refers to=20 > > IS-IS routing domains. Is it intended that a domain is=20 > different from a routing domain? This is a domain as defined in the PCE architecture spec (RFC4655) "A domain is any collection of network elements within a common sphere = of address management or path computation responsibility. Examples of = domains include IGP areas, Autonomous Systems (ASes), and multiple ASes = within a Service Provider network. Domains of path computation = responsibility may also exist as sub-domains of areas or ASes." We are going to clarify. We can use the term "Path Computation Domain" = to be more specific. > > > > > > top of page 5 > > > > > > This document does not define any new IS-IS elements of procedure. > > The procedures defined in [IS-IS-CAP] should be used. > > > > > > should that be ... MUST be used? OK, MUST be used > > > > 3.2 flooding scope > > > > > > be limited to one or more IS-IS areas the PCE belongs to,=20 > or can be > > > > one or more IS-IS areas to which the PCE belongs > > > > would be better > > > > > > 4.1. The IS-IS PCED TLV > > > > In the introduction this is referred to (correctly) as a=20 > sub-TLV, but=20 > > here and in subsequent text it is referred to as a TLV. This is=20 > > confusing to say the least. OK, to be changed to sub-TLV > > > > > > The format of the IS-IS PCED TLV and its sub-TLVs is the=20 > identical to > > > > is identical to OK > > > > > > > > 4.1.6. The CONGESTION sub-TLV > > > > > > The CONGESTION sub-TLV is used to indicate a PCE's experiences a > > > > to indicate THAT a PCE experiences > > > > or > > > > to indicate a PCE's experience of a > > > > or > > > > to indicate that a PCE is experiencing a OK > > > > > > VALUE: This comprises a one-byte bit flags indicating the > > > > > > this reads rather strangely > > > > this comprises one byte of bit flags.... OK > > > > > > > > > > 5. Elements of Procedure > > > > > > typo > > > > > > domain, itMUST be carried within an IS-IS CAPABILITY TLV=20 > having the=20 > > S > > > > > > When the PCE function is deactivated on a node, the node MUST > > originate a new IS-IS LSP with no longer any PCED TLV. A=20 > PCC MUST be > > able to detect that the PCED TLV has been removed from=20 > an IS-IS LSP. > > > > > > are we assuming here that all this information will always=20 > fit within=20 > > a single LSP? That is probably reasonable Yes > > > > Are we also assuming that it will always fit within a=20 > single IS-IS CAP=20 > > TLV? That may not be so reasonable. Actually this sounds reasonable 2 * PCE-ADDRESS + PATH-SCOPE + CONGESTION + PCE-CAP-FLAGs (with 32 = flags) =3D 40 bytes. This let 256 - 2 -40 =3D 214 bytes for the PCE-DOMAINS and = PCE-NEIG-DOMAINS, which allows encoding 35 neighbor ASes for instance. Splitting a PCED TLV would add useless complexity. We are going to add this statement : The PCED TLV MUST fit in with a = single ISIS CAP TLV.=20 By the way this restricts the number of PCE domains and neighbor domains = to a reasonable value. Does that make sense? > > > > If it requires two IS-IS CAP TLVS, is there a requirement=20 > that they be=20 > > carried in the same LSP? > > > > > > > > 7.1. IS-IS sub-TLV > > > > Once a registry for the IS-IS Router Capability TLV defined in > > [IS-IS-CAP] will have been assigned, IANA will assign a new > > > > > > "has been assigned" would be better OK > > > > > > > > 9.5. Requirements on Other Protocols and Functional Components > > > > The IS-IS extensions defined in this documents does not imply any > > requirement on other protocols. > > > > do not imply (IS-IS extensions is plural) OK Thanks a lot. Once the last call is completed, we are going to submit a = new revision that accounts for all these comments. Regards, JL >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 14:01:34 +0000 Message-ID: <00b301c75c09$d9259b50$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Cc: "Arthi Ayyangar" , "'Kireeti Kompella'" , "'Jean Philippe Vasseur'" Subject: New revision of draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-stitching Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 13:58:27 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I appear to have taken over editing this I-D to prepare it for WG last call. Here are my responses to my own review comments (yes, really!) that have been incorporated into the new revision just submitted. Adrian > === > > idnits generates the following comments > * There are 96 instances of too long lines in the document, the longest > one being 1 character in excess of 72. Indentation fixed. > Checking nits according to http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-guidelines.txt: > - It seems as if not all pages are separated by form feeds - found 0 form > feeds but 22 pages Form feeds inserted. > === > > The boilerplate will need to be updated for the new IETF Trust language. Updated. > === > Abstract. > > First paragraph is a good introduction. > Second paragraph is fine and OK. > But the Abstract also needs to say what the document is about! > I suggest the addition of a new 2nd paragraph as follows... > > This document describes extensions to the existing GMPLS signaling > protocol (RSVP-TE) to establish e2e LSPs from S-LSPs, and describes > how the LSPs can be managed using the GMPLS signaling and routing > protocols. Test added. > === > > Acronyms > > Acronyms need to be expanded on their first use in the body of the > document regardless of whether they appear in the document title or in the > Abstract. > I found... > LSP > GMPLS > P2MP > RRO Changes made. > === > > Introduction > > The Introduction section is pretty lumpy. It seems to spend most of its > time talking about hierarchical LSPs, and only defines stitching in the > final paragraph. > > I suggest some re-ordering and a little editing as follows: > > New Section 1 > > A stitched Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Traffic > Engineering (TE) Label Switched Path (LSP) is built from a set of > different LSP segments (S-LSPs) that are connected together in the > data plane in such a way that a single end-to-end LSP is realized in > the data plane. In this document, we define the concept of LSP > stitching and detail the control plane mechanisms and procedures > (routing and signaling) to accomplish this. Where applicable, > similarities and differences between LSP hierarchy [2] and LSP > stitching are highlighted. Signaling extensions required for LSP > stitching are also described here. > > It may be possible to configure a GMPLS node to switch the traffic > from an LSP for which it is the egress, to another LSP for which it > is the ingress, without requiring any signaling or routing extensions > whatsoever, and such that the operation is completely transparent to > other nodes. This results in LSP stitching in the data plane, but > requires management intervention at the node where the stitching is > performed. With the mechanism described in this document, the node > performing the stitching does not require configuration of the pair > of S-LSPs to be stitched together. Also, LSP stitching as defined > here results in an end-to-end LSP both in the control and data > planes. Done. > Move the following paragraphs (unchanged) from Section 1 to the top of > Section 2. > > LSP hierarchy ([2]) provides signaling and routing procedures so > that: > > a. A Hierarchical LSP (H-LSP) can be created. Such an LSP created > in one layer can appear as a data link to LSPs in higher layers. > As such, one or more LSPs in a higher layer can traverse this > H-LSP as a single hop; we call this "nesting". > > b. An H-LSP may be managed and advertised (although this is not a > requirement) as a Traffic Engineering (TE) link. Advertising an > H-LSP as a TE link allows other nodes in the TE domain in which > it is advertised to use this H-LSP in path computation. If the > H-LSP TE link is advertised in the same instance of control plane > (TE domain) in which the H-LSP was provisioned, it is then > defined as a forwarding adjacency LSP (FA-LSP) and GMPLS nodes > can form a forwarding adjacency (FA) over this FA-LSP. There is > usually no routing adjacency between end points of an FA. An > H-LSP may also be advertised as a TE link in a different TE > domain. In this case, the end points of the H-LSP are required > have a routing adjacency between them. > > c. RSVP signaling for LSP setup can occur between nodes that do not > have a routing adjacency. Done, resulting in a shorter Section 1, and a longer Section 2. > === > > Section 3.2 > > It might be useful to include a reference to RFC4726 to give some context > for inter-domain uses of stitching. Added in 2nd paragraph. > === > > Security considerations > > I don't think we will get away with what is currently written :-( > The killer is: > Mechanisms described in [6] should be > re-examined and may need to be altered to define new security > associations based on receiver's IP address instead of the sending > and receiving interfaces. > > I think that if you say that the re-examination is needed, you must do it. > You need to satisfy yourself as to whether any changes (beyond those > expressed in RFC4206) are needed. > > My view is that you should be able to echo the text of RFC4206 without > needing anything further. This is because the relationship between the > end-points of the S-LSP is the same as that between the end points of the > H-LSP in RFC4206. The precedent for remote signaling adjacencies has > already been established, and you are not defining anything new. Security section re-written as follows: From a security point of view, the changes introduced in this document model the changes introduced by [2]. That is, the control interface over which RSVP messages are sent or received need not be the same as the data interface which the message identifies for switching traffic. But the capability for this function was introduced in [4] to support the concept of out-of-fiber control channels, so there is nothing new in this concept for signaling or security. The application of this facility means that the "sending interface" or "receiving interface" may change as routing changes. So, these interfaces cannot be used to establish security association between neighbors, and security associations MUST be bound to the communicating neighbors themselves. [6] provides a solution to this issue: in Section 2.1, under "Key Identifier", an IP address is a valid identifier for the sending (and by analogy, receiving) interface. Since RSVP messages for a given LSP are sent to an IP address that identifies the next/previous hop for the LSP, one can replace all occurrences of 'sending [receiving] interface' with 'receiver's [sender's] IP address' (respectively). For example, in Section 4, third paragraph, instead of: "Each sender SHOULD have distinct security associations (and keys) per secured sending interface (or LIH). ... At the sender, security association selection is based on the interface through which the message is sent." it should read: "Each sender SHOULD have distinct security associations (and keys) per secured receiver's IP address. ... At the sender, security association selection is based on the IP address to which the message is sent." Thus the mechanisms of [6] can be used unchanged to establish security associations between control plane neighbors. This document allows the IP destination address of Path and PathTear messages to be the IP address of a nexthop node (receiver's address) instead of the RSVP session destination address. This means that the use of the IPsec Authentication Header (AH) (ruled out in [6] because RSVP messages were encapsulated in IP packets addressed to the ultimate destination of the Path or PathTear messages) is now perfectly applicable, and standard IPsec procedures can be used to secure the message exchanges. An analysis of GMPLS security issues can be found in [16]. > === > > IANA considerations > > It would be helpful to name the sub-registries to help IANA get these > allocations right. > > In section 7.1 the registry is "RSVP TE Parameters" (not the registry > quoted in section 7) and the sub-registry is "Attributes Flags" > > In section 7.2 the registry is "Resource ReSerVation Protocol (RSVP) > Parameters" and the sub-registry is "Error Codes and Globally-Defined > Error Value Sub-Codes" Done. > It is also helpful to supply the precise text you would like added to the > registry. > > For section 7.1: > > Path Resv RRO > Bit Name message message sub-object > Reference > ---- ------------------------------- -------- -------- ---------- --------- > 5 LSP stitching desired bit Yes No Yes > [This doc] > > > For section 7.2: > > 24 Routing Problem [RFC3209] > > 23 = Stitching unsupported [This doc] Done. > === Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 11:11:19 +0000 Message-ID: <005501c75bf2$0e023f30$22849ed9@your029b8cecfe> Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "Pandian, Vijay" , Cc: Subject: Re: Question on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-02.txt Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:05:51 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, >From which response, I interpret Dimitri as saying that: "Further, technology-specific documents might be written to define standard encoding of this (and other?) fields of the ISCD sub-TLV." Is that correct? The text in 4.2 appears more definitive than that. Perhaps, if the text shows just a potential encoding and not a defined encoding, you might consider making that very clear of removing the text? Thanks, Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Pandian, Vijay" Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 7:54 AM Subject: Re: Question on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-02.txt > hi vijay > > technology specific information encoding as part > of the techno specific field of the ISCD sub-TLV > is outside scope of this document, that defines > the generic routing mechanisms for OSPF > > the paragraph you pointed is given as example, to > clearly indicate where this information has to be > encoded but is not going to be further detailed > > in other terms techno-specific bw accounting is > outside the scope of the document > > thanks, > - d. > > > > > > "Pandian, Vijay" > Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org > 01/03/2007 03:35 > > To: > cc: > Subject: Question on > draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-02.txt > > > Hi, > > In section 4.2 Technology Specific Bandwidth Accounting, it says: > > In the ASON context, accounting on per timeslot basis using 32-bit > tuples of the form timeslots (24 bits)> may optionally be incorporated in the > technology specific field of the ISCD TE link attribute when the > switching capability field is set to TDM value. When included, > format and encoding MUST follow the rules defined in [RFC4202]. > > The signal types as defined in RFC4606 Section 2.1 covers a basic set. The > signal type is used in conjunction with the other attributes like RCC, > NCC, etc., to determine other Elementary Signal such as STS-12c SPE, > STS-48c SPE, STS-192c SPE etc. > > It is not clear to me how this 8-bit filed could be used to cover all the > different types of signal types. > > Thanks and best regards, > > Vijay > > > > > Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 07:56:46 +0000 To: "Pandian, Vijay" Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Question on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-02.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 08:54:53 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" hi vijay technology specific information encoding as part of the techno specific field of the ISCD sub-TLV is outside scope of this document, that defines the generic routing mechanisms for OSPF the paragraph you pointed is given as example, to clearly indicate where this information has to be encoded but is not going to be further detailed in other terms techno-specific bw accounting is outside the scope of the document thanks, - d. "Pandian, Vijay" Sent by: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 01/03/2007 03:35 To: cc: Subject: Question on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-02.txt Hi, In section 4.2 Technology Specific Bandwidth Accounting, it says: In the ASON context, accounting on per timeslot basis using 32-bit tuples of the form may optionally be incorporated in the technology specific field of the ISCD TE link attribute when the switching capability field is set to TDM value. When included, format and encoding MUST follow the rules defined in [RFC4202]. The signal types as defined in RFC4606 Section 2.1 covers a basic set. The signal type is used in conjunction with the other attributes like RCC, NCC, etc., to determine other Elementary Signal such as STS-12c SPE, STS-48c SPE, STS-192c SPE etc. It is not clear to me how this 8-bit filed could be used to cover all the different types of signal types. Thanks and best regards, Vijay Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 05:10:34 +0000 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:08:55 -0800 Message-Id: <200703010508.l2158tJn014315@nit.isi.edu> To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org Subject: RFC 4803 on Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switching Router (LSR) Management Information Base From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, ccamp@ops.ietf.org A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 4803 Title: Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switching Router (LSR) Management Information Base Author: T. Nadeau, Ed., A. Farrel, Ed. Status: Standards Track Date: February 2007 Mailbox: tnadeau@cisco.com, adrian@olddog.co.uk Pages: 42 Characters: 79925 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-lsr-mib-15.txt URL: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4803.txt This memo defines a portion of the Management Information Base (MIB) for use with network management protocols in the Internet community. In particular, it describes managed objects to configure and/or monitor a Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switching Router (LSR). [STANDARDS TRACK] This document is a product of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements.Please refer to the current edition of the Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list. Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG. Requests to be added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example: To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG Subject: getting rfcs help: ways_to_get_rfcs Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC Authors, for further information. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute ... Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 05:10:26 +0000 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:09:47 -0800 Message-Id: <200703010509.l2159lHs014320@nit.isi.edu> To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org Subject: RFC 4802 on Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering Management Information Base From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, ccamp@ops.ietf.org A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 4802 Title: Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering Management Information Base Author: T. Nadeau, Ed., A. Farrel, Ed. Status: Standards Track Date: February 2007 Mailbox: tnadeau@cisco.com, adrian@olddog.co.uk Pages: 60 Characters: 118164 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-te-mib-16.txt URL: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4802.txt This memo defines a portion of the Management Information Base (MIB) for use with network management protocols in the Internet community. In particular, it describes managed objects for Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS)-based traffic engineering. [STANDARDS TRACK] This document is a product of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements.Please refer to the current edition of the Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list. Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG. Requests to be added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example: To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG Subject: getting rfcs help: ways_to_get_rfcs Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC Authors, for further information. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute ... Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 05:10:18 +0000 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:10:07 -0800 Message-Id: <200703010510.l215A71k014332@nit.isi.edu> To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org Subject: RFC 4801 on Definitions of Textual Conventions for Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Management From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, ccamp@ops.ietf.org A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 4801 Title: Definitions of Textual Conventions for Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Management Author: T. Nadeau, Ed., A. Farrel, Ed. Status: Standards Track Date: February 2007 Mailbox: tnadeau@cisco.com, adrian@olddog.co.uk Pages: 9 Characters: 16347 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-tc-mib-11.txt URL: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4801.txt This document defines a Management Information Base (MIB) module that contains textual conventions (TCs) to represent commonly used Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) management information. The intent is that these textual conventions will be imported and used in GMPLS-related MIB modules that would otherwise define their own representations. [STANDARDS TRACK] This document is a product of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements.Please refer to the current edition of the Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list. Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG. Requests to be added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example: To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG Subject: getting rfcs help: ways_to_get_rfcs Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC Authors, for further information. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute ... Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 02:36:23 +0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75BAA.4C2DEEC8" Subject: Question on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-02.txt Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:35:38 -0500 Message-ID: <0679BA70A2F59E49B186858B47F4595C010080B0@viper.sycamorenet.com> Thread-Topic: Question on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-02.txt Thread-Index: AcdbqkwudMWow1z7QOGdxW9tcuWY1A== From: "Pandian, Vijay" To: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75BAA.4C2DEEC8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, =20 In section 4.2 Technology Specific Bandwidth Accounting, it says: =20 In the ASON context, accounting on per timeslot basis using 32-bit=20 tuples of the form may optionally be incorporated in the=20 technology specific field of the ISCD TE link attribute when the=20 switching capability field is set to TDM value. When included,=20 format and encoding MUST follow the rules defined in [RFC4202].=20 =20 The signal types as defined in RFC4606 Section 2.1 covers a basic set. = The signal type is used in conjunction with the other attributes like = RCC, NCC, etc., to determine other Elementary Signal such as STS-12c = SPE, STS-48c SPE, STS-192c SPE etc. =20 It is not clear to me how this 8-bit filed could be used to cover all = the different types of signal types. =20 Thanks and best regards, =20 Vijay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75BAA.4C2DEEC8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
 
In = section 4.2=20 Technology Specific Bandwidth Accounting, it says:
 
   In the=20 ASON context, accounting on per timeslot basis using 32-bit =
  =20 tuples of the form <signal_type (8 bits); number of unallocated=20
   timeslots (24 bits)> may optionally be incorporated = in the=20
   technology specific field of the ISCD TE link attribute = when=20 the
   switching capability field is set to TDM value. = When=20 included,
   format and encoding MUST follow the rules = defined in=20 [RFC4202].
 
The signal types=20 as defined in RFC4606 Section 2.1=20 covers a basic set. The=20 signal type is used in conjunction with the other attributes like RCC, = NCC,=20 etc., to determine other Elementary Signal such as STS-12c SPE, STS-48c SPE, STS-192c = SPE=20 etc.
 
It is not clear to me how this 8-bit filed could be used to = cover all=20 the different types of signal types.
 
Thanks and best regards,
 
Vijay
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