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From avelasquezpu@amh.auracom.com Sat Sep 01 16:07:01 2007
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		Save your $ Pharmacy 
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: We sell both BRAND(100% original brand) & GENERIC(35% cheaper)
: We give up to 70% discount (on retail shop price) for BOTH brand & generic meds    
: Meds we sell: Cia|lisViagra, UltramAtivan, CelebrexSoma, MeridiaClenbuterol, LuvoxPaxilZoloft & other 20 popular meds

View all medications we have  
 
http://bfr.keonecard.com
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generic meds<br>: Meds we sell: <font color=AAAA00 size=2>Cia|lisViagra, 
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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sat Sep 01 17:42:25 2007
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Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Communication from OIF on MEF UNI
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 22:32:39 +0100
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Hi,

We have received a very constructive communication from the OIF wrt our work 
on the MEF UNI. You can see it at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm

Can I encourage the authors of the various MEF-related I-Ds to follow up on 
the actions agreed in Chicago.

Cheers,
Adrian

===

Mr. Adrian Farrel, IETF CCAMP Co-Chair,
    adrian.farrel@aria-networks.com
Ms. Deborah Brungard, IETF CCAMP Co-Chair,
    dbrungard@att.com
Cc: Mr. Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Director,
    rcallon@juniper.net
Mr. David Ward, IETF Routing Area Director,
    dward@cisco.com
Mr. Lyndon Ong, Ciena Corporation,
    lyong@ciena.com

From: Mr. Jim Jones, OIF TC Chair

Subject: Liaison to IETF CCAMP WG on MEF services support

Dear Adrian and Deborah,

The OIF has been engaged in discussion with the MEF since
April 2005 regarding MEF UNI service definitions and how
these might be supported over a UNI control plane
interface. During this discussion a number of mutual
conclusions have been reached on the requirements for
signaling MEF UNI parameters using the control plane, and
the relationship of control plane and management plane
interfaces at the MEF UNI.

Some of the control plane protocol issues that were
identified have been socialized with IETF CCAMP WG through
liaisons and informal communications between participants
in OIF and CCAMP, and have resulted in work discussed in
CCAMP. OIF plans to make use of this work in its future
documents; in particular, the MEF Ethernet Traffic
Parameters and EVPL label formats and switching type
(provided in draft-ietf-ccamp-ethernet-traffic-parameters-
02.txt and draft-berger-ccamp-gmpls-mef-uni-00.txt,
respectively). While we recognize that the second draft
identified has not yet been formally adopted as a Working
Group draft, definition of the EVPL label formats and
switching type defined in the draft meet needs that we have
identified for support of MEF services in the control
plane.

We appreciate CCAMP's efforts in this area and hope to
continue productive interaction in the future.

Thank you.

Sincerely yours,
Jim Jones
OIF Technical Committee Chair 






From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sat Sep 01 17:42:27 2007
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Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Fw: liaison response to to IETF ccamp WG  on MFA Forum MPLS CNI
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 22:22:17 +0100
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Hi,

We have received the attached liaison from the MFA.
I expect it will be posted on the IETF web site in due course. In the mean 
time, you can find it at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm

The liaison does not ask for any action from us, but we may want to review 
the new specification and comment on it.

Thanks,
Adrian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "J. Rao Cherukuri" <cherukuri@juniper.net>
To: <IAB@ietf.org>; <statements@ietf.org>; <adrian@olddog.co.uk>; 
<dbrungard@att.com>
Cc: "David Sinicrope (RL/TNT)" <david.sinicrope@ericsson.com>; 
<andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>; "BOCCI Matthew" 
<Matthew.Bocci@alcatel-lucent.co.uk>; "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>; 
<dward@cisco.com>; <rao.cherukuri@juniper.net>
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 8:34 PM
Subject: liaison response to to IETF ccamp WG on MFA Forum MPLS CNI


Hi Adrian, Deborah,

Thank you and the CCAMP WG for providing such thorough and valuable
comments.  We have reviewed and incorporated many of them into the CNI
document.  There are a few that we have not incorporated for various
reasons.  We have provided the rationale for these decisions inline
below.

Please let us know if you have any questions or concerns.

Best Regards,
David  Sinicrope  AD Working Group Chair

Rao Cherukuri TC Chair

***************************************

We note that you have opted to define a new RSVP object to support a
multi-class LSP following the rules for vendor private assignment as
described in section 2.2 of RFC3936. We believe that you may have
misinterpreted the purpose of vendor private extensions since such
extensions are specifically not intended to interoperate, but you are
attempting to define a specification directly for the purpose of
interworking devices from different vendors. In your case it would seem
to make more sense to define a standardized extension to the protocol.

MFAF> At the time of development of our specification draft-andersson
was not adopted by IETF.  Also, the Multi Class specification wasn't in
a state where we could refer to it.  Consequently, we chose to use the
vendor private TLV to expedite completion of our document.   In
subsequent revisions of the CNI we will consider following
draft-andersson and obtaining a standard Multi Class TLV.

Should you decide that a standardized extension is better able to
deliver the functionality that you require, we should like to draw your
attention to draft-andersson-rtg-gmpls-change-06.txt that defines how
other SDOs may influence the development of MPLS and GMPLS protocols
within the IETF, and which is currently in IETF last call. The (G)MPLS
suites of protocols have become popular among multiple SDOs resulting in
a need for IETF to clarify its role as the responsible SDO for (G)MPLS
protocol extensions so as to prevent unnecessary replication of
functionality and the resulting interoperability problems.

1. The document is marked as Straw Ballot Text. Can you tell us
   what that means the status of the work is?
MFAF> Review is completed and document is in "last call".

2. We think that your use of terminology may be a little loose.

   In many cases, where you say "MPLS" you are probably referring
   to the data plane, and specifically a packet-switching data
   plane with an MPLS encapsulation.

   But in other cases, "MPLS" and "MPLS-TE" are synonymous and
   refer to a signaling/routing control plane using the MPLS-TE
   extensions to RSVP and to the two IGPs OSPF and IS-IS.

   In many cases you say "GMPLS-TE" which is not something we
   specifically recognise although we can assume that you mean
   simply "GMPLS". Sometimes, where you are trying to
   distinguish a TE LSP established using MPLS-TE from one set
   up using GMPLS you may intend to say "GMPLS TE-LSP" rather
   than "GMPLS-TE LSP".

   We feel that close attention to the terminology may help
   clarify the document.

MFAF> We have gone through the document and reflected your suggestions
in the text.

3. Section 1.1 states:
     The purpose of this specification is to define an MPLS-based
     Client to Network Interconnect (CNI) for establishing GMPLS
     Traffic Engineered (TE) Label Switched Paths (LSPs).
   Can we assume that this means that the client-to-client LSPs
   are established using GMPLS protocols, but that the signaling
   within the core network is out of scope? Especially since
   section 1.2 states:
     At the CNI, it is not desirable to have the client equipment
     participate in the internal control protocols of the MPLS
     network.
MFAF> We have reflected this suggestion in the text of section 1.2.

4. Can you clarify why you have selected GMPLS protocols and not
   MPLS-TE protocols on which to build your CNI. We are not
   opposed to this, but are seeking to understand the choice.
   Perhaps the main reason is the requirement for bidirectional
   LSPs.
MFAF> To facilitate use of bi-direction LSPs and to leverage existing
implementations of the standard.
We have reflected this rationale in the text of section 1.2.

5. Can you clarify whether the core network is assumed to be
   PSC only? That is, for example, if the CNI encoding is POS,
   would it be acceptable for the PE and the rest of the core
   network to switch the LSP as TDM until the remote PE or even
   CE, or do you require that the PE must perform packet
   switching? If the PE must perform packet switching, is it
   still acceptable for the core LSP (PE-PE) to be switched at
   some other technology?
MFAF>We assume that the core is PSC only.  The CNI is implemented at the
edge of the network.
Details of the core network beyond what is stated in section 1.3 are
beyond the scope of the CNI.

6. Section 1.3 states:
     Where the network uses MPLS-TE signaling, the PE routers are
     expected to perform the translation.
   It is our opinion that this translation is non-trivial and may
   be impossible for some of the GMPLS services that are
   available at the CNI. For example, supporting a bidirectional
   service over an MPLS-TE signaling network requires additional
   coordination between the end-points that is currently not
   available in the MPLS-TE extensions to RSVP-TE.
   From the following text in section 7.1, we assume that the PE
   may refuse a CNI request if it is unable to provide the
   required level of function.
      The transport network in the provider network is a GMPLS or
      MPLS-TE based packet switched network that must support
      request for uni-directional LSPs and may support requests
      for bi-directional LSPs
MFAF> In section 1.3 we state that the core has support for a minimum
set of GMPLS capabilities.
e.g., bidirectional LSP support, traffic engineering QoS capabilities.

7. Section 2.1
   The correct expansion of "GMPLS" is "Generalized Multiprotocol
   Label Switching". In view of you chosen expansion of "MPLS",
   you may prefer to show this as "Generalized Multi Protocol
   Label Switching".

   The correct expansion of "FEC" is "Forwarding Equivalence
   Class".

MFAF> We have reflected this suggestion in the text.  See the Acronyms
section.

8. Section 7.2 states:
     The CE and PE nodes are inter-connected by point-to-point
     interfaces.  The signaling channel is "in-band", i.e., the
     labeled packets share the same access connection as the
     RSVP-TE signaling.
   This is an acceptable, but not required, method of deploying
   GMPLS-based signaling. It is our suspicion reading this very
   short section that it is your intention to forbid the use of
   the IF_ID RSVP_HOP Object at the CNI. Can you confirm or deny
   this?

MFAF> At our last meeting in Chicago we decided to allow the use of the
IF_ID_RSVP_HOP as an option.  See section 7.2.

9. Section 7.3 states:
     A client need only know its own address, a reachable address
     of the adjacent PE-node, and know the address of any other
     client to which it wishes to connect.  The addresses listed
     above must be configured on each client.

     A PE need only know (and track) the addresses on interfaces
     attached to clients, as well as the Node IDs of these
     attached clients. In addition, the IP/MPLS network needs to
     know reachability to the interface addresses and Node IDs of
     other PEs to which an attached client is permitted to
     connect.

   This appears to miss the fact that the client will address a
   CNI connection request to a remote client address. The local
   PE must, therefore, know how to route to these client
   addresses that are outside the core routing domain.

   Perhaps the final sentence should say CE not PE?

   But in 9.1.2 you have:
     When a PE receives a Path message from a client that
     contains no ERO indicating transit network selection, then
     the PE is responsible for progressing the Path message
     toward the destination.  The progression of the Path
     message is beyond the scope of this specification.

   While the details are clearly out of scope, it *is* relevant
   to the definition of the CNI how the core acquires and
   distributes the client-side addressing information that is
   necessary for routing across the core. You will observe that
   the problem you are solving (including the fact that the
   client addresses may come from an address space that overlaps
   with the core address space) is similar to the L3VPN problem.

MFAF> We corrected the text to address this issue in section 7.3.
Also see the changes in section 9.1.2.

10. What is the expected behavior from the core network when an
    E-LSP is requested at the CNI?

    Can we assume that the expectation is that an appropriate
    E-LSP will also be established across the core so that
    Diffserv behavior will be performed along the whole length
    of the client-client connection, or is this not a
    requirement?

    If core Diffserv behavior is required, how will the core
    handle the presence of multiple classes?

MFAF>This is assumed and although how it is done is beyond the
scope of the specification, section 7.4.1 now states what is expected of
the network.

11. You are correct to observe that the ERO is optional in GMPLS
    implementations (sections 9.1.1 and 9.1.2), however, since
    you are specifying a profile for use at the CNI, and since
    both the CE and the PE must be CNI-aware (i.e., you cannot
    simply use legacy implementations) you may find it convenient
    to mandate support of the ERO at the CNI.

    We believe that in practice all implementations support ERO.

MFAF> We still do not mandate ERO because there was no agreement
within the MFAF TC to mandate it.  See changes made in 9.1.2.

12. In section 9.1.1 you have:
      The client populates the ERO object with only one sub-object
      containing an Autonomous System Number (ASN) representing a
      transit network beyond the originating service provider.
      The client equipment must set the ASN sub-object 'L' bit to
      1, indicating a loose route.
    It is not completely clear what is meant by 'the originating
    service provider', but we assume that this refers to the
    network that the ingress PE belongs to. In this case, this
     ERO is malformed and will be rejected. The first sub-object
    of a received ERO must always define an abstract node that
    the receiver is a member of. See RFC 3209, section 4.3.4.1,
    point 1).

MFAF> We reflected this in section 9.1.1.

13. In section 9.4:
      PE next to a client receives a PathErr with
      Path_State_Removed from the network, it may in turn
      generate either a ResvTear or PathTear, whichever is
      applicable, to be sent to the client.
    There are no circumstances in which a PE receiving a PathErr
    with Path_State_Removed from the network would send PathTear
    to the client.

    It is unclear to us why you would specify that the CNI built
    on GMPLS might not use this standard GMPLS procedure.

MFAF>We reflected this in section 9.4.

14. In section 9.5.3:
      The Extended Classtype object is signaled in the Path
      message, and saved in the Path State Block (PSB) at every
      hop.
    We recommend that you simply state that the state is stored
    as every hop. The existence of a PSB is implementation-
    specific.

    Can you please clarify "at every hop". Are you expecting
    nodes in the core network to store this information. If so,
    you should note that the core nodes will not recognize the
    object class and will reject any messages carrying it.

    We also suggest that before progressing your own extensions
    for multi-class DSTE LSPs you should look at the existing
    work within the IETF:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-minei-diffserv-te-multi-class-
02.txt
<http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-minei-diffserv-te-multi-class
-02.txt> .
    If this work is not adequate for your requirements, we
    would encourage you to work with its authors to produce
    a single standardized solution within the IETF.

MFAF>We removed all references to PSB, and all reference to "at every
hop".
This better aligns with our scope of not specifying the network
internals.
See section 9.5.3.

15. In 9.5.4:
      An LSR that recognizes the Extended Classtype object and
      that receives a Path message which contains the Extended
      Classtype object but which does not contain a Label Request
      object or which does not have a session type of
      LSP_Tunnel_IPv4, must send a PathErr message towards the
      sender with the error code 'extended-classtype Error' and
      an error value of 'Unexpected Extended Classtype object'.
      These are defined below:
    Why do you define new parsing behavior for the absence of a
    Label Request object (by the way, you should say Generalized
    Label Request object, since this is GMPLS)? The absence of
    mandatory objects is already covered in RFC2205.

MFAF> We removed the reference to "the absence of (Generalized) Label
Request object".
This implies that if the Generalized Label Request object is missing,
the relevant procedures of RFC 2205 will
be performed.

16. The error code defined in 9.5.4 is conformant with RFC 3936.
    You may wish to look at draft-swallow-rsvp-user-error-spec
    in case this gives you the ability to handle more detailed
    private error codes.

MFAF> In our specifications we are limited to referring only to
documents
that have been progressed to the RFC editor queue and beyond.  We will
certainly
consider reference to draft-swallow-rsvp-user-error-spec in future
revisions of the CNI.

Finally, we would like to refer you to
draft-kumaki-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-01.txt and
draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-01.txt for the latest state
of discussions in CCAMP with respect to interworking MPLS and GMPLS
networks.

MFAF> Thanks for pointing out these documents.  We will consider these
should our work
scope be expanded to include details of the core network and MPLS and
GMPLS interworking.

Attachment(s):










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Subject: SAVE  $ ~ Buy Prescription Rx Medication Online DISCREETLY .... 9zpozf3q32ecf
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From t_osbornnx@crescenet.com Sat Sep 01 23:52:55 2007
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		Save your $ Pharmacy
: Pick the meds you want to order & checkout (2 steps to finish an order)
: Fast delivery & discrete packaging to your doorstep 
: We sell both BRAND(100% original brand) & GENERIC(35% cheaper)    
: We give up to 70% discount (on retail shop price) for BOTH brand & generic meds      
: Meds we sell: Cia|lisViagra, UltramAtivan, CelebrexSoma, MeridiaClenbuterol, LuvoxPaxilZoloft & other 20 popular meds

View all medications we have  
 
http://bfr.kethena.com
http://brf.kethena.com
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GENERIC(35% cheaper)<br>: We 
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From hanna_rq@jci.com Sun Sep 02 02:18:43 2007
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Message-ID: <1188714038.2141@jci.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 23:20:38 -0700
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		Save your $ Pharmacy
: Pick the meds you want to order & checkout (2 steps to finish an order)
: Fast delivery & discrete packaging to your doorstep 
: We sell both BRAND(100% original brand) & GENERIC(35% cheaper)    
: We give up to 70% discount (on retail shop price) for BOTH brand & generic meds      
: Meds we sell: Cia|lisViagra, UltramAtivan, CelebrexSoma, MeridiaClenbuterol, LuvoxPaxilZoloft & other 20 popular meds

View all medications we have  
 
http://bfr.kethena.com
http://brf.kethena.com
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generic meds<br>: Meds we sell: <font color=AAAA00 size=2>Cia|lisViagra, UltramAtivan, CelebrexSoma, 
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From Hjerling@itncustoms.com Sun Sep 02 03:42:02 2007
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From karhu@edwardmcgettigan.com Sun Sep 02 10:38:27 2007
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From: "Carciumaru karhu" <karhu@edwardmcgettigan.com>
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Subject: ereruelf
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 17:38:23 +0300
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From Korp@edwardmcgettigan.com Sun Sep 02 10:40:18 2007
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From: "Herbert Korp" <Korp@edwardmcgettigan.com>
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Subject: erabika
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http://equiphi.com/
Yo ccamp-archive
wow, its so much bigger now

Khalid Bettenhausen
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2><A=20
HREF=3D"http://equiphi.com/">http://equiphi.com/</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Yo ccamp-archive</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>wow, its so much bigger now</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Khalid Bettenhausen</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From ygpoison@agassi.com Sun Sep 02 18:58:26 2007
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being woven.  As opposed to weaving on graph paper by hand, the
exist yet. It has been able to avoid fading out of public view =

required, yet curriculums are now being augmented with courses

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2">
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<P><DIV>With respect to the affects of technology on society,  we have</DIV=
></P>
<P><DIV>Are you wanting a bigger pe n _is? </DIV></P>
<P><DIV>As see -n on TV </DIV></P>
<DIV>Over 779,000 Men around the world are already satisfied</DIV>
<DIV>Gain 2+ Inches In Leng _th</DIV>
<DIV>Increase Your P _enis Wi _dth (Girth) By up _to 23%</DIV>
<DIV>100% Safe To Take, With NO Side Effects</DIV>
<DIV>No Pum _ps! No Sur _gery! No Exer _cises! </DIV>
<DIV>*3 FREE Bottles Of M -eg a Di -k</DIV>
<P><DIV><A href=3D"http://bxmvx.kniknaks.com">See Before And After Results<=
/A></DIV></P>
<DIV>Convenience and efficiency complement each other, and together</DIV>

</BODY></HTML>

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From qglance@sysnet.net Sun Sep 02 19:03:31 2007
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From: palace at <qglance@sysnet.net>
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were non-existent.  Information and communication will be so
is the idea of general purpose simulation, and went on to explain
floating around in the vast array of networks.  A lawyer may win

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<P><DIV>eliminating the need for paper as medium for communication. </DIV><=
/P>
<P><DIV>Are you wanting a bigger pe n _is? </DIV></P>
<P><DIV>As see -n on TV </DIV></P>
<DIV>Over 728,000 Men around the world are already satisfied</DIV>
<DIV>Gain 3+ Inches In Leng _th</DIV>
<DIV>Increase Your P _enis Wi _dth (Girth) By up _to 26%</DIV>
<DIV>100% Safe To Take, With NO Side Effects</DIV>
<DIV>No Pum _ps! No Sur _gery! No Exer _cises! </DIV>
<DIV>*3 FREE Bottles Of M -eg a Di -k</DIV>
<P><DIV><A href=3D"http://yrmfbm.kniknaks.com">See Before And After Results=
</A></DIV></P>
<DIV>forever linked in popular culture. So where does that leave the</DIV>

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From raymond@ebizin.com Sun Sep 02 23:26:40 2007
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From: "Thomas Kent" <raymond@ebizin.com>
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To get the best possible results we recommend using the program for at leas=
t four months. But remember, just like exercising, results may vary. The mo=
re dedicated you are, the sooner you will see results. We look forward to y=
our success! MegaDik Pills are a unique blend of all natural and FDA approv=
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To get the best possible results we recomm=
end using the program for at least four months. But remember, just like exe=
rcising, results may vary. The more dedicated you are, the sooner you will =
see results. We look forward to your success! MegaDik Pills are a unique bl=
end of all natural and FDA approved ingredients.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A 
href=3D"http://dxviii.com">http://dxviii.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Our money back guarantee is great. If for =
any reason you are not 100% satisfied with our product within the first 3 M=
onths simply return the pills for a 100% refund.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
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From Asher178@xxxpornroom.com Sun Sep 02 23:53:17 2007
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From: "Asher Kilander" <Asher178@xxxpornroom.com>
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Subject: penarono
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http://eliepet.com/
Hi bro Kilander
bigger than average, thats what i am now

Chien Stahl
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HREF=3D"http://eliepet.com/">http://eliepet.com/</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Hi bro Kilander</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>bigger than average, thats what i am =
now</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Chien Stahl</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From charlie-dzeima@gjokaj.net Mon Sep 03 01:02:14 2007
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Wazzup charlie
come and see my before and after pics

Ovais donoghue
http://esfomo.com/




From kmusical@sraco.com Mon Sep 03 04:24:03 2007
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From: Marquita Gallo <kmusical@sraco.com>
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Subject: lagain
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has to offer: already, interactive TV programs are enabling one
As far as I know of there are no connections to the third world.  with teln=
et and then into Media Moo. From inside Media Moo we

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<P><DIV>new inventions from film to space travel. It is ludicrous that</DIV=
></P>
<P><DIV>Are you wanting a bigger pe n _is? </DIV></P>
<P><DIV>As see -n on TV </DIV></P>
<DIV>Over 725,000 Men around the world are already satisfied</DIV>
<DIV>Gain 3+ Inches In Leng _th</DIV>
<DIV>Increase Your P _enis Wi _dth (Girth) By up _to 25%</DIV>
<DIV>100% Safe To Take, With NO Side Effects</DIV>
<DIV>No Pum _ps! No Sur _gery! No Exer _cises! </DIV>
<DIV>*3 FREE Bottles Of M -eg a Di -k</DIV>
<P><DIV><A href=3D"http://xymtm.kolyok.com">See Before And After Results</A=
></DIV></P>
<DIV>would be a store salesperson or assistant.  One will be able to</DIV>

</BODY></HTML>

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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Sep 03 04:47:03 2007
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To: Greg Jones <greg.jones@itu.int>
Cc: Kam Lam <hklam@alcatel-lucent.com>,
	Stephen Trowbridge <sjtrowbridge@alcatel-lucent.com>,
	Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>, David Ward <dward@cisco.com>,
	Scott Bradner <sob@hardward.edu>,
	CCAMP Mailing List <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>,
	Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>,
	Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com>,
	Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>,
	Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com>
From: Adrian Farrel (IETF CCAMP WG) <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Subject: New Liaison Statement, "ASON Routing Loop Prevention Mechanism" 
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Title: ASON Routing Loop Prevention Mechanism
Submission Date: 2007-09-03
URL of the IETF Web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=364 

From: Adrian Farrel(IETF CCAMP WG) <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: ITU-T Q14/15(Greg Jones <greg.jones@itu.int>)
Cc: Kam Lam <hklam@alcatel-lucent.com>
Stephen Trowbridge <sjtrowbridge@alcatel-lucent.com>
Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
David Ward <dward@cisco.com>
Scott Bradner <sob@hardward.edu>
CCAMP Mailing List <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Reponse Contact: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com>
Technical Contact: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com>
Purpose: In response 
Body: The IETF CCAMP working group thanks you for your continued
interest in the loop-prevention mechanism contained in our
OSPF-based solution to the routing requirements as
described in RFC 4258.

This liaison is in response to your liaison COM15-169-E
issued from your June plenary. A separate liaison will
report on the status and progress of our OSPF ASON
solution.

We disagree with your statement that the rationale we
explained "does not utilize the hierarchical nature defined
by ASON." Quite to the contrary, the solution addresses the
issues introduced by the hierarchical routing nature of
ASON while utilizing the benefits. At the same time, since
the protocol mechanisms are extensions to OSPF, it is only
natural that "the rationale provided takes into account the
considerations of how OSPF traditionally operates."

You are right to observe that other mechanisms could have
been selected, and would also have been functional. This is
often the case in protocol design. However, a choice has to
be made, and unless there are technical reasons to suggest
that the choice is wrong, there seems to be no particular
motivation to make a change.

You say:
  While we recognise it is possible to identify the
  propagation direction based on the Area ID of the source,
  it does require that all redistribution mechanisms in the
  network understand the relative location of source areas
  given the area hierarchy (i.e. are they up or down the
  hierarchy from the evaluation point).  We cannot identify
  in the existing proposal any mechanism (i.e. new LSA
  format) defined to provide this information.
We note that the requirement is not to know the direction
of propagation of information, but to detect routing 
advertisement loops. According to the strict hierarchical
nature of ASON (as you describe in your liaison) the use
of Area IDs is sufficient to detect advertisement loops.

There is no definition of any new mechanism or LSA in this
Internet-Draft: the use of a new LSA or changes to the
processing rules for existing LSAs would inhibit the
integration of ASON routing developments within the
IETF routing family and, while this may not be an
objective of the ASON architecture, it is an objective of
the IETF.

You suggest that the use of Area ID in the LSAs will
inhibit re-configuration of AREA IDs. We do not believe
that this is the case, and we will add text to the draft to
describe the necessary processing for this important, but
uncommon case.

Please note that the scope of this work (including the
loop-prevention mechanisms) is limited by the requirements
expressed in RFC 4258. A separate liaison to you has
requested a further review of RFC 4258. In the event that
substantive modifications to the requirements are made as a
result of your review, it will be necessary to consider
updating the solutions work. Such a process of publication
and revision is similar to the procedure applied within the
ITU.

Note also that the scope of this work (that is, of this
current Internet-Draft) is extensions to the OSPFv2
protocol. The CCAMP working group would welcome
contributions in the form of Internet-Drafts from anyone
who is interested in addressing the same problem space
through the IS-IS protocol.

Thank you for your continued support of this work.

Regards,
Deborah Brungard and Adrian Farrel
IETF CCAMP Working Group Co-Chairs
Attachment(s):
No document has been attached






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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Sep 03 09:25:34 2007
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Subject: RE: Working Group last calls completed : MPLS/GMPLS interworking and migration
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 15:11:48 +0200
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From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>
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hi adrian

it would be surprising these documents have reached perfection (or a
close to), i would suggest to ask for a review by e.g. gen-art like you
did for the inter-domain documents

now, it is clear that by addressing a topic that involves operational
aspects (not only protocol engineering specific) we would welcome any
feedback along these lines

thanks,
-d.  =20


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 8:51 PM
> To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: Working Group last calls completed : MPLS/GMPLS=20
> interworking and migration
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> These last calls completed while I was travelling. I have=20
> scanned the mail=20
> list and I didn't see any comments. I also received no=20
> comments privately.
>=20
> Maybe the drafts are in perfect shape. Maybe no-one had time=20
> to read them.
>=20
> Please can I get a feeling from the working group:
>=20
> Are these I-Ds ready to move forward as RFCs?
>=20
> "Framework for MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration"
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpl
s-interwork-fmwk-03.txt
>=20
> "Interworking Requirements to Support operation of MPLS-TE over GMPLS=20
> Networks"
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpl
s-interwork-reqts-01.txt
>=20
> Thanks,
> Adrian
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 7:41 PM
> Subject: Working Group last call on MPLS/GMPLS interworking=20
> and migration
>=20
>=20
> > Hi,
> > .
> > Two working group drafts have reached the position where=20
> the authors=20
> > consider them ready for last call (actually, a whole bunch=20
> have arrived=20
> > there at the same time, but we want to dribble them through=20
> the last call=20
> > process).
> >
> > These two documents concern the operation of MPLS over=20
> GMPLS, and the=20
> > migration from MPLS to GMPLS.
> >
> > The "Framework for MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration" is (the=20
> rather poorly=20
> > named)
> >=20
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpl
s-interwork-fmwk-03.txt
> >
> > The "Interworking Requirements to Support operation of=20
> MPLS-TE over GMPLS=20
> > Networks" are in
> >=20
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpl
s-interwork-reqts-01.txt
> >
> > The documents are both Informational.
> >
> > Please send your comments (preferably to the list) by the=20
> end of WG last=20
> > call which will be 12 noon GMT 24th August 2007.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Adrian
> >
> >
> >=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20




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To: Greg Jones <greg.jones@itu.int>
Cc: Kam Lam <hklam@alcatel-lucent.com>,
	Stephen Trowbridge <sjtrowbridge@alcatel-lucent.com>,
	Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>, David Ward <dward@cisco.com>,
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From: Adrian Farrel (IETF CCAMP WG) <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Subject: New Liaison Statement, "GMPLS Signaling for VCAT/LCAS" 
Reply-To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
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Title: GMPLS Signaling for VCAT/LCAS
Submission Date: 2007-09-04
URL of the IETF Web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=365 
Please reply by 2007-11-15

From: Adrian Farrel(IETF CCAMP WG) <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: ITU-T Q14/15(Greg Jones <greg.jones@itu.int>)
Cc: Kam Lam <hklam@alcatel-lucent.com>
Stephen Trowbridge <sjtrowbridge@alcatel-lucent.com>
Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
David Ward <dward@cisco.com>
Scott Bradner <sob@hardward.edu>
CCAMP Mailing List <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Reponse Contact: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com>
Technical Contact: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com>
Purpose: For action 
Body: The CCAMP Working Group thanks you for your liaison of
April this year (COM15-LS3-E) and for your interest in our
work to develop GMPLS signaling extensions for the control
of VCAT within TDM networks.

The latest version of this work can be found at
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-02.txt
We expect a revision relatively soon, so if the referenced
link fails, please also check at
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-03.txt

Here are our responses to the questions in your liaison.

1. Would CCAMP consider generalizing the draft so that it
   could be applied to any Inverse Multiplexing scheme? For
   example, if generalized, the method could be used to
   establish H.244, ML-PPP, ATM inverse mux, or BONDING
   connections.

It is certainly our intention that any protocol extensions
that we develop should be easily extensible to other
technologies. But at the same time we have seen no
immediate interest from the community in applying GMPLS as
a control plane for any of the technologies that you list.
It would, of course, be a prerequisite of using GMPLS for
such an inverse multiplexing scheme, that GMPLS was also
used to build network connections (i.e. LSPs) for the
specific technology.

If you have a requirement to use GMPLS to control these
technologies, we would be interested to hear from you. In
the mean time, we note that the inverse multiplexing
schemes that you list are packet/cell forms rather than
circuit forms of inverse multiplexing and hence may have
different configuration parameters than VCAT.


2. Does the I-D describe VCAT call signalling?

The I-D uses GMPLS Calls (RFC 4974) to achieve VCAT group
signaling. The GMPLS Call is used to coordinate the setup
of multiple server connections (LSPs) used to form a VCAT
group (a connection in the VCAT layer).


3. Does the I-D allow LSPs in a server layer to be set up
   without any prior knowledge of a possible VCAT layer,
   and then at a later point in time allow those LSPs to
   become available to a VCAT layer?

When a network connection is established at the request of
an operator or a management system, we have assumed that
there is some motivation, and that the motivation is
expressed in the call that coordinates the connection. In
RFC 4974, the nature of the call can be changed (as a
matter of call parameter exchange that is within the scope
of the call controller function, but the details of which,
except for the message exchange rules, are outside the
scope of the signaling protocol), but the connections
cannot be moved from one call to another.

Thus, LSPs that are set up in association with a specific
call can only be used as directed by the call controller
with responsibility for that call. If a call controller
decides to use the connections (LSPs) for VCAT one day and
for something else another day, that is entirely within its
remit. However, this assumes that the call controller can
suitably instruct and coordinate the necessary adaptation
functions at each end of the network connections. An
implementation might find it more convenient to release the
call (and the associated connections), before setting up a
new call and a new set of connections.

Note that we are considering mechanisms to allow LSPs to be
moved between VCAT Groups according to the requirements of
the network. Such schemes necessarily mean that there is
not always a 1:1 relationship between calls and VCAT groups
since it remains the case that connections cannot be moved 
between calls. However, our understanding of G.707 and the 
ability to move component trails (VCAT group members) 
between VCAT groups while the trail is in service is 
unclear, and we would welcome clarification of the 
requirements before progressing this function further.


4. Does the I-D allow the association of a VCAT call to
   multiple server layer calls?

This is not specifically addressed. There is no hierarchy
of calls described in the draft. Instead, the draft
provides for a single call that is used to coordinate all
of the server layer connections that support the single
VCAT service. In practice, this may not represent
architectural purity, but we believe it is a protocol
implementation simplification consistent with the way that
VCAT is operated.

We note that VCAT groups can only consist of a single
server connection type and cannot be mixed, e.g., VC-3 and
VC-4 components cannot both be in the same VCG.


5. Does release of a VCAT call automatically imply release
  of the server layer call(s)? This is not required by
  G.8080 as layers are assumed to be independent.

As noted for point 4, the VCAT layer call is not
specifically called out in the draft. You may consider that
the draft provides a mechanism for handling the (single
hop) VCAT call and the server layer call as a single item.
We would be interested to hear from you the operational
circumstances under which a single VCAT layer call might
give rise to multiple server layer calls.

The signaling of the release of a GMPLS Call is rejected if
connections are still in place (per RFC 4974 section 6.6.4)
which is consistent with the connections having been set up
under the instructions of the call controller and in
support of the call. Thus, operationally, the release of a
call will require the release of the associated
connections.

At this point it may be worth clarifying that a VCAT layer
connection is created under the control of a VCAT layer
call. The VCAT connection may require server layer
connections (indeed, this is always the case with VCAT) and
those connections need to be associated and controlled by a
call. it is this second type of call that we are we are
describing in this draft.

Thus, the release of a VCAT call would lead to the release
of the VCAT connection. The network policy may determine
whether to release the server layer call or not. If the
server layer call is released, the server layer connections
will also be released.


6. Is VCAT layer addressing assumed to be the same as that
  of the server layer?

GMPLS only supports IP addressing. The link connections in
the VCAT layer created by/from network connections in the
server layer may be given different addresses from the
addresses used to represent the endpoints in the server
layer, or may use the same addresses.


7. Are the two VCAT layer Call Controllers assumed to have
  direct signalling connectivity?

Yes, adjacent call controllers in any layer are assumed to
be able to exchange call control messages without the
intervention of any proxy, agent, or extra-layer entity.


8. If multiple client layers are using the same VCAT layer
  as their server layer, how can the VCAT layer call be
  identified for use in the client layer signalling?

How is this problem any different from any other n:1
client/server relationship? Please supply details of why
the fact that the server layer is a VCAT layer should make
this scenario any different.

Please also note that, as for point 5 above, the VCAT layer
call is not what is being addressed in this draft. We are
addressing the server layer call that coordinates the
server layer network connections that are used as VCAT
group members to construct a VCAT group that can be
presented as a link connection in the VCAT layer.


9. Have you considered using the ASON call id [RFC3474] at
  all layers to achieve separate call control of the VCAT
  and server layers?

The format of the call ID is deliberately out of scope for
this work as we would not wish to control or enforce the
applicability of this work in any one environment. However,
RFC 4974 (as noted in a recent separate liaison from us on
GMPLS Calls) allows any format call ID to be encoded in
GMPLS calls. Thus, the ASON call id format described
informationally in RFC 3474 can be supported and used in an
ASON environment at the choice of the operator and/or the
implementer of the call controller.

Can you please confirm that the normative definition of the
ASON call ID is in G.7713.2? Other Recommendations (such as
G.7713.3) also appear to have call IDs defined, and we want
to make sure that we can reference a single, protocol-
independent definition of a call ID


10. In the ASON architecture [G.8080], it is not assumed
   that a single signalling protocol is used in all
   domains. Even in the case the same protocol is used in
   all domains, the RSVP session changes between domains.
   Could you explain how the Notify mechanism used for
   call control would work across multiple domains where
   the RSVP session changes?

This question clearly has wider relevance than this VCAT
draft and should be seen in the context of RFC 4974, and
not in reference to this draft.

We note that G.8080 makes no assumptions about connection
signaling protocols in adjacent domains, but we believe
that the architecture does assume an E-NNI reference point
in association with one or more call controllers at such
domain interfaces. The E-NNI call controllers are
responsible for requesting the necessary network
connections in each domain and, where the E-NNI is
externalised, for requesting any inter-domain connections.

Call messages are exchanged between adjacent call
controllers and relate to the network connections
established at the request of those call controllers. When
two adjacent GMPLS domains support the same end-to-end
network connection, we do not recommend that the session
object be changed.

Please clarify where in G.8080 there is any reference to
RSVP sessions. There should be no such discussion of
protocol implementations in an architecture document.


We would welcome your opinions on these responses and the
direction of our work.

In your liaison you stated that you had the intention to
review the draft further at your June meeting. But in the
liaison from your June meeting (COM15-LS170-E) you say that
you deferred this review pending further revisions of the
I-D. This is quite reasonable, but we would nevertheless
welcome any further high-level comments that you may have.
We will notify you as this draft is updated.

Best regards,
Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard
IETF CCAMP Working Group Co-Chairs
Attachment(s):
No document has been attached






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From: Kohei Shiomoto <shiomoto.kohei@lab.ntt.co.jp>
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Subject: Re: Working Group last calls completed : MPLS/GMPLS interworking
 and migration
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Hi Adrian

I think that these drafts are ready to move forward. I am happy to hear 
any feedback from the ccamp community.

Best regards,
Kohei

> Hi,
> 
> These last calls completed while I was travelling. I have scanned the 
> mail list and I didn't see any comments. I also received no comments 
> privately.
> 
> Maybe the drafts are in perfect shape. Maybe no-one had time to read them.
> 
> Please can I get a feeling from the working group:
> 
> Are these I-Ds ready to move forward as RFCs?
> 
> "Framework for MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration"
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-03.txt 
> 
> 
> "Interworking Requirements to Support operation of MPLS-TE over GMPLS 
> Networks"
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-01.txt 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Adrian
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 7:41 PM
> Subject: Working Group last call on MPLS/GMPLS interworking and migration
> 
> 
>> Hi,
>> .
>> Two working group drafts have reached the position where the authors 
>> consider them ready for last call (actually, a whole bunch have 
>> arrived there at the same time, but we want to dribble them through 
>> the last call process).
>>
>> These two documents concern the operation of MPLS over GMPLS, and the 
>> migration from MPLS to GMPLS.
>>
>> The "Framework for MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration" is (the rather poorly 
>> named)
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-03.txt 
>>
>>
>> The "Interworking Requirements to Support operation of MPLS-TE over 
>> GMPLS Networks" are in
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-01.txt 
>>
>>
>> The documents are both Informational.
>>
>> Please send your comments (preferably to the list) by the end of WG 
>> last call which will be 12 noon GMT 24th August 2007.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Adrian
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Kohei Shiomoto
NTT Network Service Systems Laboratories
3-9-11 Midori, Musashino, Tokyo 180-8585, Japan
Phone +81 422 59 4402    Fax +81 422 59 3787






From Robertson.ramanoop@adsl-81-7-119-163.takas.lt Tue Sep 04 11:16:25 2007
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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Sep 04 12:56:49 2007
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Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 11:47:00 -0500
From: Young Lee <ylee@huawei.com>
Subject: RE: Working Group last calls completed : MPLS/GMPLS interworking and
 migration
In-reply-to: <01a101c7eb36$ad2d3190$0300a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
To: 'Adrian Farrel' <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, ccamp@ops.ietf.org
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I support both I-Ds to move forward as RFCs. 

Both I-D clearly state the scope of the document and comprehensively address
respective architectural framework and requirement. 

Young 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf
Of Adrian Farrel
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 1:51 PM
To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Working Group last calls completed : MPLS/GMPLS interworking and
migration

Hi,

These last calls completed while I was travelling. I have scanned the mail 
list and I didn't see any comments. I also received no comments privately.

Maybe the drafts are in perfect shape. Maybe no-one had time to read them.

Please can I get a feeling from the working group:

Are these I-Ds ready to move forward as RFCs?

"Framework for MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration"
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fm
wk-03.txt

"Interworking Requirements to Support operation of MPLS-TE over GMPLS 
Networks"
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-re
qts-01.txt

Thanks,
Adrian

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 7:41 PM
Subject: Working Group last call on MPLS/GMPLS interworking and migration


> Hi,
> .
> Two working group drafts have reached the position where the authors 
> consider them ready for last call (actually, a whole bunch have arrived 
> there at the same time, but we want to dribble them through the last call 
> process).
>
> These two documents concern the operation of MPLS over GMPLS, and the 
> migration from MPLS to GMPLS.
>
> The "Framework for MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration" is (the rather poorly 
> named)
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fm
wk-03.txt
>
> The "Interworking Requirements to Support operation of MPLS-TE over GMPLS 
> Networks" are in
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-re
qts-01.txt
>
> The documents are both Informational.
>
> Please send your comments (preferably to the list) by the end of WG last 
> call which will be 12 noon GMT 24th August 2007.
>
> Thanks,
> Adrian
>
>
> 









From rixie@brookeenglish.com Tue Sep 04 16:54:21 2007
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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Wed Sep 05 06:22:37 2007
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
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Subject: Plans for GELS work in CCAMP
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:51:19 +0100
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Hi,

We owe you a plan for starting the GELS work in CCAMP.

As you may have seen, we have just sent a request to the ADs to push through
our recharter as discussed on the mailing list. The ADs have already
indicated their support, so hopefully this will be fairly smooth.

We have also been talking with Don and Loa about starting work on the GELS
drafts that we will accept into the working group as a starting point.
(Other drafts can be added as needed.)

1. "GMPLS Extensions for PE to PE Ethernet Label Switched Paths(LSPs)"
This document is the generic work:
- Introduction
- Rationale for GMPLS Control of Ethernet
- Generic functional requirements (no data plane specifics!)
- Applicability of existing protocol elements
- New generic protocol elements (nothing specific to the data plane)

2. "GMPLS control of P2P TE for PBB-TE (802.1Qay)"
Mainly references to the generic document.
Some protocol specifics:
- Code points (i.e. IANA section)
- Label allocation and swapping rules
Not a large document.

Other drafts that we might also see:

3. "GMPLS control of P2P TE for IEEE802.1Q"
Another data plane-specific draft, like 2, but for a different data plane

4. Applicability Statement
A concise description of how and why to apply GMPLS to Ethernet.
Probably not written until after the protocol work is done.

We propose a relatively small design team to get this work started.
   Loa Andersson
   Lou Berger
   Don Fedyk
   George Swallow

We are NOT trying to exclude anyone from the work, and we make a couple of
observations:

- A design team is just a group of people working on a
  draft.
- Anyone and everyone is welcome to write a draft.
- We feel that an initial design should be small to make
   rapid initial progress.
- We welcome (and expect!) full and detailed contribution
   on the mailing list as this work progresses.
- Everyone who contributes to a draft should be appropriately
   recognised in the draft.

Last point:
I propose to close the GELS mailing list now.

Hope this is all satisfactory to you.

Regards,
Adrian and Deborah 






From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Wed Sep 05 06:30:47 2007
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To: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>,
	<dward@cisco.com>
Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: CCAMP Proposed Recharter
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:09:27 +0100
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Hi Ross and Dave,

Please propose the attached recharter to the IESG for approval. Can 
you get it onto the agenda for this Thursday? Probably missed it :-(


Thanks,
Adrian and Deborah

===

First paragraph

OLD
The CCAMP working group coordinates the work within the IETF defining
a common control plane and a separate common measurement plane for
physical path and core tunneling technologies of Internet and telecom
service providers (ISPs and SPs), e.g. O-O and O-E-O optical switches,
ATM and Frame Relay switches, MPLS, GRE, in cooperation with the MPLS
WG.

NEW
The CCAMP working group coordinates the work within the IETF defining
a common control plane and a separate common measurement plane for
physical path and core tunneling technologies of Internet and telecom
service providers (ISPs and SPs), e.g. O-O and O-E-O optical switches,
TDM switches, Ethernet switches, ATM and Frame Relay switches, IP 
encapsulation tunneling technologies, and MPLS in cooperation with the
MPLS WG.

===

New paragraph in the list of Scope bullets.
Suggest to place it after:
"- Definition of MIB modules and other OAM techniques relevant to the
   protocols and extensions specified within the WG."
and before:
"CCAMP WG currently works on the following tasks:"

- Work on traffic-engineering GMPLS mechanisms and protocol
  extensions to support source-controlled and explicitly-routed
  Ethernet data paths for Ethernet data planes that are already
  approved by an SDO with responsibility for the Ethernet data
  plane. It is expected that the primary SDO in this case is the
  IEEE. Note that the specification or modification of Ethernet data
  planes is out of scope.


===

Final paragraph

OLD
In doing this work, the WG will work closely with at least the
following other WGs: MPLS, ISIS, OSPF, IDR, L1VPN and PCE. The WG
will also cooperate with the ITU-T.

NEW
In doing this work, the WG will work closely with at least the
following other WGs: MPLS, ISIS, OSPF, IDR, L1VPN, and PCE. The
WG will also cooperate with the ITU-T and the IEEE 802.1.

===

Milestone revisions (see below for full revised milestone list)

OLD
  Jan 2006    First version WG I-D for Protocol solutions for MLN/MRN
NEW
  Sep 2007    First version WG I-D for Protocol solutions for MLN/MRN
---
OLD
  Mar 2006    First version WG I-D GMPLS OAM Requirements
NEW
  Sep 2007    First version WG I-D GMPLS OAM Requirements
---
OLD
  Apr 2006    First version of WG I-D for additional MIB module to
              cover RSVP-TE signaling extensions
NEW
  Nov 2007    First version of WG I-D for additional MIB module to
              cover RSVP-TE signaling extensions
---
OLD
  Jun 2006    Submit Informational I-D for Analysis of inter-domain
              issues for disjoint and protected paths for IESG review
NEW
  Oct 2007    Submit Informational I-D for Analysis of inter-domain
              issues for disjoint and protected paths for IESG review
---
OLD
  Oct 2006    Submit MPLS to GMPLS migration strategies I-D for IESG
              review
NEW
  Sep 2007    Submit MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration strategies I-D for
              IESG review
---
OLD
  Nov 2006    Submit ASON Routing solutions I-D for IESG review
NEW
  Jan 2008    Submit ASON Routing solutions I-D for IESG review
---
OLD
  Dec 2006    Submit Requirements for Multi-Layer and Multi-Region
              Networks I-D for IESG review
NEW
  Oct 2007    Submit Requirements for Multi-Layer and Multi-Region
              Networks I-D for IESG review
---
OLD
  Jan 2007    Submit MPLS-GMPLS interworking requirements and
              solutions I-D for IESG review
NEW
  Sep 2007    Submit MPLS-TE/GMPLS interworking requirements I-D for
              IESG review
---
OLD
  Feb 2007    Submit Evaluation of existing protocols for MLN/MRN for
              IESG review
NEW
  Oct 2007    Submit Evaluation of existing protocols for MLN/MRN for
              IESG review
---
OLD
  Mar 2007    Submit OSPF-TE/GMPLS MIB module for MIB doctor and IESG
              review
NEW
  Dec 2007    Submit OSPF-TE/GMPLS MIB module for MIB doctor and IESG
              review
---
OLD
  Jun 2007    Submit GMPLS OAM Requirements I-D for IESG review
NEW
  Feb 2008    Submit GMPLS OAM Requirements I-D for IESG review
---
OLD
  Aug 2007    Submit Protocol solutions for MLN/MRN I-D for IESG
              review
NEW
  Mar 2008    Submit Protocol solutions for MLN/MRN I-D for IESG
              review
---
OLD
  Dec 2007    Submit MIB module for RSVP-TE signaling extensions for
              MIB doctor and IESG review
NEW
  Apr 2008    Submit MIB module for RSVP-TE signaling extensions for
              MIB doctor and IESG review
---
OLD
  Dec 2007    Recharter or close Working Group
NEW
  Dec 2008    Recharter or close Working Group
---
NEW
  Oct 2007    First version WG I-Ds for GMPLS source-controlled and
              explicitly-routed Ethernet networks
---
NEW
  Sep 2008    Submit protocol extensions for GMPLS source-controlled
              and explicitly-routed Ethernet networks for IESG review

====

Goals and Milestones (full revised milestone list)

Done    Post strawman WG goals and charter
Done    Identify and document a limited set of candidate solutions
        for signalling and for measurement. Among candidate control
        solutions to be considered are the existing GMPLS drafts.
Done    Build appropriate design teams
Done    Submit WG document defining path setup portions of common
        control plane protocol
Done    Submit WG document defining common measurement plane protocol
Done    Submit LMP MIB to IESG
Done    Submit protection & restoration documents to IESG
Done    Submit ASON signaling requirements doc to IESG
Done    Submit GMPLS MIBs to IESG
Done    Produce CCAMP WG document for generic tunnel tracing protocol
Done    Produce CCAMP WG document for multi-area/AS signaling and
        routing
Done    Submit ASON routing requirements doc to IESG
Done    Submit revised charter and milestones to IESG for IESG
        consideration of more detailed deliverables and determination
        of usefulness of continuation of WG
Done    First version WG I-D for Advertising TE Node Capabilities in
        ISIS and OSPF
Done    First version WG I-D for Automatic discovery of MPLS-TE mesh
        membership
Done    Submit ASON Routing evaluation I-D for IESG review
Done    Cross-WG review of I-D for Advertising TE Node Capabilities in
        ISIS and OSPF
Done    First version WG I-D MPLS to GMPLS migration strategies
Done    First version WG I-D Requirements for Multi-Layer and Multi-
        Region Networks
Done    First version WG I-D for Evaluation of existing protocols for
        MLN/MRN
Done    First version of WG I-D for ASON Routing solutions
Done    Submit RSVP-TE extensions for inter-domain signaling I-D for
        IESG review
Done    Submit Per-domain path computation signaling I-D for IESG
        review
Done    First version of WG I-D for OSPF-TE/GMPLS MIB module
Done    Submit GMPLS signaling in support of Call Management I-D for
        IESG review
Done    First version WG Informational I-D for Analysis of inter-
        domain issues for disjoint and protected paths
Done    Submit I-D for Advertising TE Node Capabilities in ISIS and
        OSPF for IESG review
Done    Submit GMPLS/ASON lexicography I-D for IESG review
Done    First version WG I-D MPLS-GMPLS interworking requirements and
        solutions
Done    Submit LSP Stitching I-D for IESG review
Done    Submit I-D for Automatic discovery of MPLS-TE mesh membership
        for IESG review
Done    Submit GMPLS routing and signaling interoperability advice I-D
        for IESG review
Sep 2007    First version WG I-D for Protocol solutions for MLN/MRN
Sep 2007    First version WG I-D GMPLS OAM Requirements
Sep 2007    Submit MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration strategies I-D for IESG
            review
Sep 2007    Submit MPLS-TE/GMPLS interworking requirements I-D for
            IESG review
Oct 2007    First version WG I-Ds for GMPLS source-controlled and
            explicitly-routed Ethernet networks
Oct 2007    Submit Informational I-D for Analysis of inter-domain
            issues for disjoint and protected paths for IESG review
Oct 2007    Submit Requirements for Multi-Layer and Multi-Region
            Networks I-D for IESG review
Oct 2007    Submit Evaluation of existing protocols for MLN/MRN for
            IESG review
Nov 2007    First version of WG I-D for additional MIB module to
            cover RSVP-TE signaling extensions
Dec 2007    Submit OSPF-TE/GMPLS MIB module for MIB doctor and IESG
            review
Jan 2008    Submit ASON Routing solutions I-D for IESG review
Feb 2008    Submit GMPLS OAM Requirements I-D for IESG review
Mar 2008    Submit Protocol solutions for MLN/MRN I-D for IESG review
Apr 2008    Submit MIB module for RSVP-TE signaling extensions for
            MIB doctor and IESG review
Sep 2008    Submit protocol extensions for GMPLS source-controlled
            and explicitly-routed Ethernet networks for IESG review
Dec 2008    Recharter or close Working Group

====






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Subject: RE: Plans for GELS work in CCAMP
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 14:16:52 +0200
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From: "Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI)" <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>
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Hi Adrian hi Deborah,
                     I think that this is a very good way to proceed I =
also think the people in the DT are the right ones.

I'd like to contribute this work so DT guys please fill free to contact =
me.

Best Regards

Diego
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On =
Behalf
> Of Adrian Farrel
> Sent: mercoled=EC 5 settembre 2007 11.51
> To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: Plans for GELS work in CCAMP
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> We owe you a plan for starting the GELS work in CCAMP.
>=20
> As you may have seen, we have just sent a request to the ADs to push
> through
> our recharter as discussed on the mailing list. The ADs have already
> indicated their support, so hopefully this will be fairly smooth.
>=20
> We have also been talking with Don and Loa about starting work on the =
GELS
> drafts that we will accept into the working group as a starting point.
> (Other drafts can be added as needed.)
>=20
> 1. "GMPLS Extensions for PE to PE Ethernet Label Switched Paths(LSPs)"
> This document is the generic work:
> - Introduction
> - Rationale for GMPLS Control of Ethernet
> - Generic functional requirements (no data plane specifics!)
> - Applicability of existing protocol elements
> - New generic protocol elements (nothing specific to the data plane)
>=20
> 2. "GMPLS control of P2P TE for PBB-TE (802.1Qay)"
> Mainly references to the generic document.
> Some protocol specifics:
> - Code points (i.e. IANA section)
> - Label allocation and swapping rules
> Not a large document.
>=20
> Other drafts that we might also see:
>=20
> 3. "GMPLS control of P2P TE for IEEE802.1Q"
> Another data plane-specific draft, like 2, but for a different data =
plane
>=20
> 4. Applicability Statement
> A concise description of how and why to apply GMPLS to Ethernet.
> Probably not written until after the protocol work is done.
>=20
> We propose a relatively small design team to get this work started.
>    Loa Andersson
>    Lou Berger
>    Don Fedyk
>    George Swallow
>=20
> We are NOT trying to exclude anyone from the work, and we make a =
couple of
> observations:
>=20
> - A design team is just a group of people working on a
>   draft.
> - Anyone and everyone is welcome to write a draft.
> - We feel that an initial design should be small to make
>    rapid initial progress.
> - We welcome (and expect!) full and detailed contribution
>    on the mailing list as this work progresses.
> - Everyone who contributes to a draft should be appropriately
>    recognised in the draft.
>=20
> Last point:
> I propose to close the GELS mailing list now.
>=20
> Hope this is all satisfactory to you.
>=20
> Regards,
> Adrian and Deborah
>=20
>=20





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Subject: Re: Working Group last calls completed : MPLS/GMPLS interworking
 and migration
References: <09a101c7dab4$f6cae910$5002010a@your029b8cecfe> <01a101c7eb36$ad2d3190$0300a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
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Hi Adrian,

These I-Ds are ready to move forward as RFCs.
Of course,we welcome WG feedback and comments.

Regards,
Kenji

Adrian Farrel wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> These last calls completed while I was travelling. I have scanned the 
> mail list and I didn't see any comments. I also received no comments 
> privately.
> 
> Maybe the drafts are in perfect shape. Maybe no-one had time to read them.
> 
> Please can I get a feeling from the working group:
> 
> Are these I-Ds ready to move forward as RFCs?
> 
> "Framework for MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration"
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-03.txt 
> 
> 
> "Interworking Requirements to Support operation of MPLS-TE over GMPLS 
> Networks"
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-01.txt 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Adrian
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 7:41 PM
> Subject: Working Group last call on MPLS/GMPLS interworking and migration
> 
> 
>> Hi,
>> .
>> Two working group drafts have reached the position where the authors 
>> consider them ready for last call (actually, a whole bunch have 
>> arrived there at the same time, but we want to dribble them through 
>> the last call process).
>>
>> These two documents concern the operation of MPLS over GMPLS, and the 
>> migration from MPLS to GMPLS.
>>
>> The "Framework for MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration" is (the rather poorly 
>> named)
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-03.txt 
>>
>>
>> The "Interworking Requirements to Support operation of MPLS-TE over 
>> GMPLS Networks" are in
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-01.txt 
>>
>>
>> The documents are both Informational.
>>
>> Please send your comments (preferably to the list) by the end of WG 
>> last call which will be 12 noon GMT 24th August 2007.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Adrian
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 






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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 06 05:39:52 2007
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>,
	"gels" <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>
References: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E9101FB483B@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> <014f01c7eb1f$3272db10$0300a8c0@your029b8cecfe> <46D7DDC6.8000205@pi.se>
Subject: Closing the GELS Mailing List
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We propose to close the GELS mailing list.

Loa wrote...

> I tend to support this, but it begs two questions:
>
> - when will the charter update be ack'ed?

I don't know, and I can't promise that it will be ack'ed. but the Routing 
ADs appear to support the change.

> - in the (unlikely) case where we don't get an ack for
>  gels work the gels-list won't be needed anyhow, so;
>  isn't the effect of the of your statement below that
>  the gels-list is dead as of now? Especially since the
>  on thing we are discussing at the moment is the charter
>  update and this is on the ccamp list??

Absolutely.

I'll give you all a last chance to scream.

Thanks,
Adrian 






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Subject: of mythology
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medium, and did, but my friend, who is an Economics major, just
software.  It seems awfully limiting. Am I missing something? Is congregate=
 daily if they chose. It is just about as likely that

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<P><DIV>With respect to the affects of technology on society,  we have</DIV=
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From nljbowling@benports.com Thu Sep 06 08:56:00 2007
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home.  Consequently, the environment we live in may benefit from
into the states, around Canada or Mexico, but in the last few for downtown =
office space will drive the rent/lease prices down,

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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 06 10:13:28 2007
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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 15:59:47 +0200
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From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>
To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>,
        "gels" <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
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adrian,

you could leave the gels list for the list for the techno-specific
discussions and the ccamp list for the non-techno specific discussions

in any case, i believe the value of gels was so far to allow open
discussion on a topic that was on charter=20

-> question: does proposed incorporation in charter (with milestones to
be better shaped inline with progress of IEEE) elevate any other need ?
complete decoupling of discussion has been shown to be difficult to be
realized in the past

thanks,
-dimitri.


=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:27 AM
> To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> We propose to close the GELS mailing list.
>=20
> Loa wrote...
>=20
> > I tend to support this, but it begs two questions:
> >
> > - when will the charter update be ack'ed?
>=20
> I don't know, and I can't promise that it will be ack'ed. but=20
> the Routing ADs appear to support the change.
>=20
> > - in the (unlikely) case where we don't get an ack for
> >  gels work the gels-list won't be needed anyhow, so;
> >  isn't the effect of the of your statement below that
> >  the gels-list is dead as of now? Especially since the
> >  on thing we are discussing at the moment is the charter
> >  update and this is on the ccamp list??
>=20
> Absolutely.
>=20
> I'll give you all a last chance to scream.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Adrian=20




From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 06 10:35:02 2007
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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:26:42 +0200
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From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>
To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>,
        "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>,
        "gels" <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
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attila - yes. but CCAMP is only about "Control" -

-d.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 4:25 PM
> To: Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> I support closing the gels list.=20
>=20
> Since decoupling the discussions into "techno-specific" and GMPLS
> specific part is very difficult, if at all possible, I do not=20
> see how to
> benefit from a separate forum for techno-specific aspects. IMHO, it
> would be much clearer having a single forum for all related=20
> discussions
> anyway.
>=20
> Best regards,
> Attila
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:27 AM
> > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> > Cc: Ross Callon
> > Subject: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> >=20
> > We propose to close the GELS mailing list.
> >=20
> > Loa wrote...
> >=20
> > > I tend to support this, but it begs two questions:
> > >
> > > - when will the charter update be ack'ed?
> >=20
> > I don't know, and I can't promise that it will be ack'ed. but=20
> > the Routing ADs appear to support the change.
> >=20
> > > - in the (unlikely) case where we don't get an ack for =20
> > gels work the=20
> > > gels-list won't be needed anyhow, so;  isn't the effect of=20
> > the of your=20
> > > statement below that  the gels-list is dead as of now? Especially=20
> > > since the  on thing we are discussing at the moment is=20
> the charter =20
> > > update and this is on the ccamp list??
> >=20
> > Absolutely.
> >=20
> > I'll give you all a last chance to scream.
> >=20
> > Thanks,
> > Adrian=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
>=20
>=20




From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 06 10:36:55 2007
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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:24:45 +0200
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From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>
To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>,
	<ccamp@ops.ietf.org>,
	"gels" <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>
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Hi all,

I support closing the gels list.=20

Since decoupling the discussions into "techno-specific" and GMPLS
specific part is very difficult, if at all possible, I do not see how to
benefit from a separate forum for techno-specific aspects. IMHO, it
would be much clearer having a single forum for all related discussions
anyway.

Best regards,
Attila


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:27 AM
> To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> We propose to close the GELS mailing list.
>=20
> Loa wrote...
>=20
> > I tend to support this, but it begs two questions:
> >
> > - when will the charter update be ack'ed?
>=20
> I don't know, and I can't promise that it will be ack'ed. but=20
> the Routing ADs appear to support the change.
>=20
> > - in the (unlikely) case where we don't get an ack for =20
> gels work the=20
> > gels-list won't be needed anyhow, so;  isn't the effect of=20
> the of your=20
> > statement below that  the gels-list is dead as of now? Especially=20
> > since the  on thing we are discussing at the moment is the charter =20
> > update and this is on the ccamp list??
>=20
> Absolutely.
>=20
> I'll give you all a last chance to scream.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Adrian=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20




From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 06 10:53:53 2007
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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:41:12 -0400
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From: "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com>
To: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>,
   "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>,
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Hi Adrian

Dmitri does have a point that if there is a topic that heads into the
"weeds" we could direct it to the GELS list explicitly. =20

Is there a cost of keeping it open?

Regards,
Don =20

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 10:00 AM
To: Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
Cc: Ross Callon
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List

adrian,

you could leave the gels list for the list for the techno-specific
discussions and the ccamp list for the non-techno specific discussions

in any case, i believe the value of gels was so far to allow open
discussion on a topic that was on charter=20

-> question: does proposed incorporation in charter (with milestones to
be better shaped inline with progress of IEEE) elevate any other need ?
complete decoupling of discussion has been shown to be difficult to be
realized in the past

thanks,
-dimitri.


=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:27 AM
> To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> We propose to close the GELS mailing list.
>=20
> Loa wrote...
>=20
> > I tend to support this, but it begs two questions:
> >
> > - when will the charter update be ack'ed?
>=20
> I don't know, and I can't promise that it will be ack'ed. but=20
> the Routing ADs appear to support the change.
>=20
> > - in the (unlikely) case where we don't get an ack for
> >  gels work the gels-list won't be needed anyhow, so;
> >  isn't the effect of the of your statement below that
> >  the gels-list is dead as of now? Especially since the
> >  on thing we are discussing at the moment is the charter
> >  update and this is on the ccamp list??
>=20
> Absolutely.
>=20
> I'll give you all a last chance to scream.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Adrian=20





From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 06 11:17:35 2007
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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 17:01:43 +0200
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From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>
To: "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com>,
	"PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>,
	"Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>,
	<ccamp@ops.ietf.org>,
	"gels" <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
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Hi Don,

This sounds good, however I doubt that it can be smoothly enforced. How
to determine when a discussion is to be moved to the gels list, and,
maybe, when is it eligible to be moved back to ccamp? It will be
difficult to follow up mixed threads.

On the other hand, I suspect that most of the ccamp list members are
also subscribed to the gels list so I do not really see the benefit of
having two lists; expect setting different filtering rules in your
mailer (well, this might be an argument enough in itself :-))

Best regards,
Attila

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Don Fedyk
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 4:41 PM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> Hi Adrian
>=20
> Dmitri does have a point that if there is a topic that heads=20
> into the "weeds" we could direct it to the GELS list explicitly. =20
>=20
> Is there a cost of keeping it open?
>=20
> Regards,
> Don =20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 10:00 AM
> To: Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> adrian,
>=20
> you could leave the gels list for the list for the=20
> techno-specific discussions and the ccamp list for the=20
> non-techno specific discussions
>=20
> in any case, i believe the value of gels was so far to allow=20
> open discussion on a topic that was on charter=20
>=20
> -> question: does proposed incorporation in charter (with=20
> milestones to
> be better shaped inline with progress of IEEE) elevate any=20
> other need ?
> complete decoupling of discussion has been shown to be=20
> difficult to be realized in the past
>=20
> thanks,
> -dimitri.
>=20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:27 AM
> > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> > Cc: Ross Callon
> > Subject: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> >=20
> > We propose to close the GELS mailing list.
> >=20
> > Loa wrote...
> >=20
> > > I tend to support this, but it begs two questions:
> > >
> > > - when will the charter update be ack'ed?
> >=20
> > I don't know, and I can't promise that it will be ack'ed. but the=20
> > Routing ADs appear to support the change.
> >=20
> > > - in the (unlikely) case where we don't get an ack for  gels work=20
> > > the gels-list won't be needed anyhow, so;  isn't the=20
> effect of the=20
> > > of your statement below that  the gels-list is dead as of now?=20
> > > Especially since the  on thing we are discussing at the moment is=20
> > > the charter  update and this is on the ccamp list??
> >=20
> > Absolutely.
> >=20
> > I'll give you all a last chance to scream.
> >=20
> > Thanks,
> > Adrian
>=20
>=20
>=20




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From: "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" <zali@cisco.com>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Don Fedyk
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 10:41 AM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> Hi Adrian
>=20
> Dmitri does have a point that if there is a topic that heads=20
> into the "weeds" we could direct it to the GELS list explicitly. =20
>=20
> Is there a cost of keeping it open?

Is there a cost for discussing them at CCAMP? I prefer a central place
for all discussions.  =20

Thanks

Regards... Zafar=20

>=20
> Regards,
> Don =20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 10:00 AM
> To: Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> adrian,
>=20
> you could leave the gels list for the list for the=20
> techno-specific discussions and the ccamp list for the=20
> non-techno specific discussions
>=20
> in any case, i believe the value of gels was so far to allow=20
> open discussion on a topic that was on charter=20
>=20
> -> question: does proposed incorporation in charter (with=20
> milestones to
> be better shaped inline with progress of IEEE) elevate any=20
> other need ?
> complete decoupling of discussion has been shown to be=20
> difficult to be realized in the past
>=20
> thanks,
> -dimitri.
>=20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:27 AM
> > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> > Cc: Ross Callon
> > Subject: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> >=20
> > We propose to close the GELS mailing list.
> >=20
> > Loa wrote...
> >=20
> > > I tend to support this, but it begs two questions:
> > >
> > > - when will the charter update be ack'ed?
> >=20
> > I don't know, and I can't promise that it will be ack'ed. but the=20
> > Routing ADs appear to support the change.
> >=20
> > > - in the (unlikely) case where we don't get an ack for  gels work=20
> > > the gels-list won't be needed anyhow, so;  isn't the=20
> effect of the=20
> > > of your statement below that  the gels-list is dead as of now?=20
> > > Especially since the  on thing we are discussing at the moment is=20
> > > the charter  update and this is on the ccamp list??
> >=20
> > Absolutely.
> >=20
> > I'll give you all a last chance to scream.
> >=20
> > Thanks,
> > Adrian
>=20




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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 11:54:24 -0400
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References: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E9101FB483B@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> <014f01c7eb1f$3272db10$0300a8c0@your029b8cecfe> <46D7DDC6.8000205@pi.se> <020501c7f068$270d0c20$0302a8c0@your029b8cecfe> <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E9102067D40@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> <8144761F31F48D43AD53D09F5350E380012B22ED@FRVELSMBS22.ad2.ad.alcatel.com>
From: "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>,
        "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>,
        "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>,
        "gels" <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 10:27 AM
> To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> attila - yes. but CCAMP is only about "Control" -
>=20

And for interface with Standards Body owning forwarding. Not to mention
we are all "technical". What else is left?=20

Thanks

Regards... Zafar=20

> -d.
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Attila=20
> Takacs (IJ/ETH)
> > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 4:25 PM
> > To: Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> > Cc: Ross Callon
> > Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> >=20
> > Hi all,
> >=20
> > I support closing the gels list.=20
> >=20
> > Since decoupling the discussions into "techno-specific" and GMPLS=20
> > specific part is very difficult, if at all possible, I do=20
> not see how=20
> > to benefit from a separate forum for techno-specific=20
> aspects. IMHO, it=20
> > would be much clearer having a single forum for all related=20
> > discussions anyway.
> >=20
> > Best regards,
> > Attila
> >=20
> >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> > > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:27 AM
> > > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> > > Cc: Ross Callon
> > > Subject: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> > >=20
> > > We propose to close the GELS mailing list.
> > >=20
> > > Loa wrote...
> > >=20
> > > > I tend to support this, but it begs two questions:
> > > >
> > > > - when will the charter update be ack'ed?
> > >=20
> > > I don't know, and I can't promise that it will be ack'ed. but the=20
> > > Routing ADs appear to support the change.
> > >=20
> > > > - in the (unlikely) case where we don't get an ack for
> > > gels work the
> > > > gels-list won't be needed anyhow, so;  isn't the effect of
> > > the of your
> > > > statement below that  the gels-list is dead as of now?=20
> Especially=20
> > > > since the  on thing we are discussing at the moment is
> > the charter
> > > > update and this is on the ccamp list??
> > >=20
> > > Absolutely.
> > >=20
> > > I'll give you all a last chance to scream.
> > >=20
> > > Thanks,
> > > Adrian
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> >=20
> >=20
>=20




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Subject:  RFC 4990 on Use of Addresses in Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Networks
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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

        
        RFC 4990

        Title:      Use of Addresses in Generalized 
                    Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Networks 
        Author:     K. Shiomoto, R. Papneja,
                    R. Rabbat
        Status:     Informational
        Date:       September 2007
        Mailbox:    shiomoto.kohei@lab.ntt.co.jp, 
                    rabbat@alum.mit.edu, 
                    rpapneja@isocore.com
        Pages:      23
        Characters: 50908
        Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None

        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-08.txt

        URL:        http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4990.txt

This document clarifies the use of addresses in Generalized
Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) networks.  The aim is to
facilitate interworking of GMPLS-capable Label Switching Routers
(LSRs).  The document is based on experience gained in implementation,
interoperability testing, and deployment.

The document describes how to interpret address and identifier fields
within GMPLS protocols, and how to choose which addresses to set in
those fields for specific control plane usage models.  It also
discusses how to handle IPv6 sources and destinations in the MPLS and
GMPLS Traffic Engineering (TE) Management Information Base (MIB)
modules.

This document does not define new procedures or processes.  Whenever
this document makes requirements statements or recommendations, these
are taken from normative text in the referenced RFCs.  This memo provides information for the Internet community.

This document is a product of the Common Control and Measurement Plane
Working Group of the IETF.


INFORMATIONAL: This memo provides information for the Internet community. 
It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution
of this memo is unlimited.

This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list.
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should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG.  Requests to be
added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should
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RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG.  Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC
Authors, for further information.


The RFC Editor Team
USC/Information Sciences Institute

...






From Ronald@hdj.de Thu Sep 06 14:06:55 2007
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From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>
To: "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" <zali@cisco.com>,
        "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>,
        "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>,
        "gels" <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>
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zafar

the main problem remains - to take a base example
in its work plan Adrian mentions

2. "GMPLS control of P2P TE for PBB-TE (802.1Qay)"

[...]
- Label allocation and swapping rules=20
[...]

is that not a forwarding component discussion ?

beside the fact that there is an assumption on what
label means and how it is represented in data plane

thanks,
-d.


=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:zali@cisco.com]=20
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 5:54 PM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Adrian=20
> Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri
> > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 10:27 AM
> > To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> > Cc: Ross Callon
> > Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> >=20
> > attila - yes. but CCAMP is only about "Control" -
>=20
> And for interface with Standards Body owning forwarding. Not=20
> to mention
> we are all "technical". What else is left?=20
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> Regards... Zafar=20
>=20
> > -d.
> >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> > > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Attila=20
> > Takacs (IJ/ETH)
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 4:25 PM
> > > To: Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> > > Cc: Ross Callon
> > > Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> > >=20
> > > Hi all,
> > >=20
> > > I support closing the gels list.=20
> > >=20
> > > Since decoupling the discussions into "techno-specific" and GMPLS=20
> > > specific part is very difficult, if at all possible, I do=20
> > not see how=20
> > > to benefit from a separate forum for techno-specific=20
> > aspects. IMHO, it=20
> > > would be much clearer having a single forum for all related=20
> > > discussions anyway.
> > >=20
> > > Best regards,
> > > Attila
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> > > > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:27 AM
> > > > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> > > > Cc: Ross Callon
> > > > Subject: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> > > >=20
> > > > We propose to close the GELS mailing list.
> > > >=20
> > > > Loa wrote...
> > > >=20
> > > > > I tend to support this, but it begs two questions:
> > > > >
> > > > > - when will the charter update be ack'ed?
> > > >=20
> > > > I don't know, and I can't promise that it will be=20
> ack'ed. but the=20
> > > > Routing ADs appear to support the change.
> > > >=20
> > > > > - in the (unlikely) case where we don't get an ack for
> > > > gels work the
> > > > > gels-list won't be needed anyhow, so;  isn't the effect of
> > > > the of your
> > > > > statement below that  the gels-list is dead as of now?=20
> > Especially=20
> > > > > since the  on thing we are discussing at the moment is
> > > the charter
> > > > > update and this is on the ccamp list??
> > > >=20
> > > > Absolutely.
> > > >=20
> > > > I'll give you all a last chance to scream.
> > > >=20
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Adrian
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> >=20
>=20




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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: OSPF Traffic Engineering (OSPF-TE) Extensions in Support of Inter-AS Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering
	Author(s)	: M. Chen, R. Zhang
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt
	Pages		: 13
	Date		: 2007-9-6
	
This document describes extensions to the OSPF v2 and v3 Traffic 
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From Neha984@halla.net Fri Sep 07 03:38:01 2007
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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 07 05:10:25 2007
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References: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E9101FB483B@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> <014f01c7eb1f$3272db10$0300a8c0@your029b8cecfe> <46D7DDC6.8000205@pi.se> <020501c7f068$270d0c20$0302a8c0@your029b8cecfe> <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E9102067D40@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> <8144761F31F48D43AD53D09F5350E380012B22ED@FRVELSMBS22.ad2.ad.alcatel.com> <BABC859E6D0B9A4D8448CC7F41CD2B070514F5A5@xmb-rtp-203.amer.cisco.com> <8144761F31F48D43AD53D09F5350E380012B24AF@FRVELSMBS22.ad2.ad.alcatel.com>
Subject: Re: Closing the GELS Mailing List
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I think this thread is a representation in miniature of the issues 
involved...

- All the emails in this thread have been copied to both mailing lists
- All the participants in the thread are subscribed to both mailing lists

No, it doesn't cost to have both lists active.
No, it doesn't cost to have all of the threads on CCAMP.

Please note that we should not discuss the data plane. If you don't 
understand (or don't like, or don't want to use) the data plane you should 
have your discussions in private or at the IEEE.

Dimitri said...

>> - Label allocation and swapping rules
> is that not a forwarding component discussion ?

It is certainly informed by the forwarding component (i.e. the definition of 
the data plane), but the rules we need to define are the rules for the 
control plane. I.e. (and for example, only) if the forwarding plane defines 
that the label allocated on the upstream interface must be numerically one 
greater than the label allocated on the downstream interface, this rule must 
be referenced in the control plane specification. This is important since it 
is a constraint placed on the normal per-interface operation of GMPLS. That 
makes it CCAMP work.

> beside the fact that there is an assumption on what
> label means and how it is represented in data plane

This is also something we would expect to describe within CCAMP although 
"what is a label" would come to us from the data plane specification.

Thanks,
Adrian 






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Hi forks,

We have updated these two I-Ds since IETF 69th in Chicago, where we received
a lot of useful comments and suggestion. You could reach them by the
following links:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extensi
on-01.txt

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-chen-isis-interas-te-extensio
n-01.txt


Compare to rev.00, the main changes in rev.01 are listed below:

1. Wording changes in several places;
2. According to Kireeti's comments, make a clear statement "There is no OSPF
adjacency running on the inter-AS link";
3. Enhance the PCE-based scenario to explain that the AS number property of
an inter-AS TE link is needed, and clearly state that the AS number sub-TLV
is mandatory;
4. Add the missing part about that the local ASBR SHOULD do a "proxy"
advertisement for the backward of an inter-AS TE link;
5. Enhance the Security section.

Any feedback and comments are welcome!
Best regards,
Mach






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Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:46:00 +0800
From: Mach Chen <mach@huawei.com>
Subject: Update for the "IGP extention in support of Inter-AS TE" drafts(resend
 for some nits in the previous email:-))
To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
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Hi forks,

 

We have updated these two I-Ds since IETF 69th in Chicago, where we received
a lot of useful comments and suggestion. You could reach them by the
following links:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extensi
on-01.txt

 

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chen-ccamp-isis-interas-te-extensi
on-01.txt

 

Compare to rev.00, the main changes in rev.01 are listed below:

 

1. Wording changes in several places;

2. According to Kireeti's comments, make a clear statement "There is no OSPF
adjacency running on the inter-AS link"; 

3. Enhance the PCE-based scenario to explain that the AS number property of
an inter-AS TE link is needed, and clearly state that the AS number sub-TLV
is mandatory; 

4. Add the missing part about that the local ASBR SHOULD do a "proxy"
advertisement for the backward of an inter-AS TE link; 5. Enhance the
Security section.

 

Any feedback and comments are welcome!

Best regards,

Mach

 


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</head>

<body lang=ZH-CN link=blue vlink=purple style='text-justify-trim:punctuation'>

<div class=Section1 style='layout-grid:15.6pt'>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'>Hi
forks,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'>We
have updated these two I-Ds since IETF 69th in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City
 w:st="on">Chicago</st1:City></st1:place>, where we received a lot of useful
comments and suggestion. You could reach them by the following links:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><u><font size=1 color=blue
face=Arial><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue;layout-grid-mode:both'><a
href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt</a></span></font></u><font
size=1 face=Arial><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;
layout-grid-mode:both'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><u><font size=1 color=blue
face=Arial><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue;layout-grid-mode:both'><a
href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chen-ccamp-isis-interas-te-extension-01.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chen-ccamp-isis-interas-te-extension-01.txt</a></span></font></u><font
size=1 face=Arial><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;
layout-grid-mode:both'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'>Compare
to rev.00, the main changes in rev.01 are listed below:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'>1.
Wording changes in several places;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'>2.
According to Kireeti's comments, make a clear statement &quot;There is no OSPF
adjacency running on the inter-AS link&quot;; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'>3. Enhance
the PCE-based scenario to explain that the AS number property of an inter-AS TE
link is needed, and clearly state that the AS number sub-TLV is mandatory; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'>4. Add
the missing part about that the local ASBR SHOULD do a &quot;proxy&quot; advertisement
for the backward of an inter-AS TE link; 5. Enhance the Security section.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'>Any
feedback and comments are welcome!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'>Mach<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=Arial><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:
9.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

--Boundary_(ID_haGQROjryIU2to16pF2lnw)--




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From ydpublish@screaminsam.com Fri Sep 07 09:28:12 2007
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cellular phone, and a mug of fresh, automatic-machine-made
pass by children will lose touch of reality.  Communicating Part Two - The =
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assienment in part given to our computer class was to connect
of many approaches to looking at things. Go see the movie Slacker expressio=
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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 07 10:05:38 2007
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Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Lam, Hing-Kam \(Kam\)" <hklam@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: Working Group Last Call on MLN Requirements and Evaluation
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Hi,

This email starts the working group last call on

http://www.olddog.co.uk/pentredwr.htm
and
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-eval-03.txt

This last call will include scope for review of the documents by ITU-T SG15 
Q14 during their interim meeting in Stuttgart.

The last call will end at 12 noon GMT on 21st September 2007.

Please send your comments by email to the CCAMP list or to the CCAMP chairs 
(or by formal liaison ;-).

Thanks,
Adrian 






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Subject: Re: Working Group Last Call on MLN Requirements and Evaluation
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:10:59 +0100
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Remarkable!

Don't trust your mailer if it comes from Microsoft!

That URL showed as 
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-reqs-05.txt 
right up until it arrive in my inbox!

But you are also very welcome to book our village hall :-)

Adrian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Lam, Hing-Kam (Kam)" <hklam@alcatel-lucent.com>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 2:55 PM
Subject: Working Group Last Call on MLN Requirements and Evaluation


> Hi,
>
> This email starts the working group last call on
>
> http://www.olddog.co.uk/pentredwr.htm
> and
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-eval-03.txt
>
> This last call will include scope for review of the documents by ITU-T 
> SG15 Q14 during their interim meeting in Stuttgart.
>
> The last call will end at 12 noon GMT on 21st September 2007.
>
> Please send your comments by email to the CCAMP list or to the CCAMP 
> chairs (or by formal liaison ;-).
>
> Thanks,
> Adrian
>
>
> 






From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 07 11:24:39 2007
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	<ccamp@ops.ietf.org>,
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Subject: Re: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:25:46 +0200
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Adrian

Just to break the pattern, I am not on the GELS list - never got round to it -
and would be very happy to see them merged.

A list should reflect a community of interest and I think that there is only one
here.  The work of CCAMP has a wider impact on other SDOs and liaisons form a
significant part of CCAMP's work.  Where GELS is different is the SDO to liaise
with, but I do not see that as justification for a separate list.

Tom Petch


----- Original Message -----
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>; "Zafar
Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>; "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"
<Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>; <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>; "gels" <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: Closing the GELS Mailing List


> I think this thread is a representation in miniature of the issues
> involved...
>
> - All the emails in this thread have been copied to both mailing lists
> - All the participants in the thread are subscribed to both mailing lists
>
> No, it doesn't cost to have both lists active.
> No, it doesn't cost to have all of the threads on CCAMP.
>
> Please note that we should not discuss the data plane. If you don't
> understand (or don't like, or don't want to use) the data plane you should
> have your discussions in private or at the IEEE.
>
> Dimitri said...
>
> >> - Label allocation and swapping rules
> > is that not a forwarding component discussion ?
>
> It is certainly informed by the forwarding component (i.e. the definition of
> the data plane), but the rules we need to define are the rules for the
> control plane. I.e. (and for example, only) if the forwarding plane defines
> that the label allocated on the upstream interface must be numerically one
> greater than the label allocated on the downstream interface, this rule must
> be referenced in the control plane specification. This is important since it
> is a constraint placed on the normal per-interface operation of GMPLS. That
> makes it CCAMP work.
>
> > beside the fact that there is an assumption on what
> > label means and how it is represented in data plane
>
> This is also something we would expect to describe within CCAMP although
> "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane specification.
>
> Thanks,
> Adrian





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From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>
To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>,
        "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" <zali@cisco.com>,
        "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>,
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=20
adrian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]=20
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 10:59 AM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; Zafar Ali (zali); Attila Takacs=20
> (IJ/ETH); ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: Re: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> I think this thread is a representation in miniature of the issues=20
> involved...
>=20
> - All the emails in this thread have been copied to both mailing lists
> - All the participants in the thread are subscribed to both=20
> mailing lists
>=20
> No, it doesn't cost to have both lists active.
> No, it doesn't cost to have all of the threads on CCAMP.
>=20
> Please note that we should not discuss the data plane. If you don't=20
> understand (or don't like, or don't want to use) the data=20
> plane you should=20
> have your discussions in private or at the IEEE.
>=20
> Dimitri said...
>=20
> >> - Label allocation and swapping rules
> > is that not a forwarding component discussion ?
>=20
> It is certainly informed by the forwarding component (i.e.=20
> the definition of=20
> the data plane), but the rules we need to define are the=20
> rules for the=20
> control plane. I.e. (and for example, only) if the forwarding=20
> plane defines=20
> that the label allocated on the upstream interface must be=20
> numerically one=20
> greater than the label allocated on the downstream interface,=20
> this rule must=20
> be referenced in the control plane specification. This is=20
> important since it=20
> is a constraint placed on the normal per-interface operation=20
> of GMPLS. That=20
> makes it CCAMP work.
>=20
> > beside the fact that there is an assumption on what
> > label means and how it is represented in data plane
>=20
> This is also something we would expect to describe within=20
> CCAMP although=20
> "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane specification.

do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the specification that
CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does not speak about "label" and its
encoding there will be no place to discuss any "label processing" and
"label distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or link-local
-

in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of this effort
since not referring - as of today at least - to any "label" semantic as
part of the Ethernet frame header information field ?

thanks,
-d.


> Thanks,
> Adrian=20
>=20
>=20
>=20




From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 07 14:18:13 2007
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Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian <snipped>

> >=20
> > This is also something we would expect to describe within
> > CCAMP although=20
> > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane=20
> specification.
>=20
> do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the=20
> specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does=20
> not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no=20
> place to discuss any "label processing" and "label=20
> distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or link-local
> -
>=20
> in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of=20
> this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to=20
> any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header=20
> information field ?
>=20
> thanks,
> -d.

What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are?  These are all 'labels'.

You also have to remember that the nature of the labels required in a
traffic unit are determined by the type of the network mode one is
dealing with.

In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
'connection'.  This implies specific architectural requirements....but
the most significant, for this discussion at least, is that a connection
must have a single source.  What this means is that one does not have to
incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under defect-free
conditions it is redundant information as the connection itself provides
the source information.  {Compare this to the cl-ps mode which does not
have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit is essential}

Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the
requirements of a connection have only focussed on incorporating a DA
(forwarding) label.  Further, these forwarding labels only need to be
distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different client layer
(link-connection) instances within a server layer (network connection)
resource partition.  However, there are advantages from having both a SA
and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not
just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent robustness
under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM flow) is one of
these.  And of course, these are the nature of the native labels one
already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins.  So why would
one even contemplate not using these since they are already there?

The VID label is slightly different in that one can consider it as a
'route discriminator label' and a local extension to the SA or DA, ie it
provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between nodal end
points.

The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'
does not change the fact that this is what they are.  So I'm not clear
what your real point is here.

regards, Neil




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From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>
To: <neil.2.harrison@bt.com>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <zali@cisco.com>,
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point is:=20

whether the ethernet frame header fields can be interpreted as "labels"
that follows label switching rules applicable to an LSR and what are the
implications on forwarding component behaviour when considering such
"label encoding"


note: per 3031 a label is: a short fixed length physically contiguous
identifier which is used to identify a FEC, usually of local
significance.=20
=20
-d.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: neil.2.harrison@bt.com [mailto:neil.2.harrison@bt.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:07 PM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; adrian@olddog.co.uk;=20
> zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com;=20
> ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian <snipped>
>=20
> > >=20
> > > This is also something we would expect to describe within
> > > CCAMP although=20
> > > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane=20
> > specification.
> >=20
> > do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the=20
> > specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does=20
> > not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no=20
> > place to discuss any "label processing" and "label=20
> > distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or link-local
> > -
> >=20
> > in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of=20
> > this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to=20
> > any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header=20
> > information field ?
> >=20
> > thanks,
> > -d.
>=20
> What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are?  These are=20
> all 'labels'.
>=20
> You also have to remember that the nature of the labels required in a
> traffic unit are determined by the type of the network mode one is
> dealing with.
>=20
> In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
> 'connection'.  This implies specific architectural requirements....but
> the most significant, for this discussion at least, is that a=20
> connection
> must have a single source.  What this means is that one does=20
> not have to
> incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under defect-free
> conditions it is redundant information as the connection=20
> itself provides
> the source information.  {Compare this to the cl-ps mode=20
> which does not
> have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit is essential}
>=20
> Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the
> requirements of a connection have only focussed on incorporating a DA
> (forwarding) label.  Further, these forwarding labels only need to be
> distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different client layer
> (link-connection) instances within a server layer (network connection)
> resource partition.  However, there are advantages from=20
> having both a SA
> and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not
> just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent=20
> robustness
> under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM flow) is one of
> these.  And of course, these are the nature of the native labels one
> already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins.  So why would
> one even contemplate not using these since they are already there?
>=20
> The VID label is slightly different in that one can consider it as a
> 'route discriminator label' and a local extension to the SA=20
> or DA, ie it
> provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between nodal end
> points.
>=20
> The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'
> does not change the fact that this is what they are.  So I'm not clear
> what your real point is here.
>=20
> regards, Neil
>=20




From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 07 14:54:33 2007
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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:46:53 -0400
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From: "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com>
To: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>,
   <neil.2.harrison@bt.com>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <zali@cisco.com>,
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Dmitri=20

Quoting from GMPLS RFC 3945 seems far more applicable given we are
talking a Generalized label switch router (LSR).

"2. Layer-2 Switch Capable (L2SC) interfaces:

      Interfaces that recognize frame/cell boundaries and can switch
      data based on the content of the frame/cell header.  Examples
      include interfaces on Ethernet bridges that switch data based on
      the content of the MAC header and interfaces on ATM-LSRs that
      forward data based on the ATM VPI/VCI. "

Don=20

-----Original Message-----

point is:=20

whether the ethernet frame header fields can be interpreted as "labels"
that follows label switching rules applicable to an LSR and what are the
implications on forwarding component behaviour when considering such
"label encoding"


note: per 3031 a label is: a short fixed length physically contiguous
identifier which is used to identify a FEC, usually of local
significance.=20
=20
-d.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: neil.2.harrison@bt.com [mailto:neil.2.harrison@bt.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:07 PM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; adrian@olddog.co.uk;=20
> zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com;=20
> ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian <snipped>
>=20
> > >=20
> > > This is also something we would expect to describe within
> > > CCAMP although=20
> > > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane=20
> > specification.
> >=20
> > do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the=20
> > specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does=20
> > not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no=20
> > place to discuss any "label processing" and "label=20
> > distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or link-local
> > -
> >=20
> > in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of=20
> > this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to=20
> > any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header=20
> > information field ?
> >=20
> > thanks,
> > -d.
>=20
> What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are?  These are=20
> all 'labels'.
>=20
> You also have to remember that the nature of the labels required in a
> traffic unit are determined by the type of the network mode one is
> dealing with.
>=20
> In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
> 'connection'.  This implies specific architectural requirements....but
> the most significant, for this discussion at least, is that a=20
> connection
> must have a single source.  What this means is that one does=20
> not have to
> incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under defect-free
> conditions it is redundant information as the connection=20
> itself provides
> the source information.  {Compare this to the cl-ps mode=20
> which does not
> have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit is essential}
>=20
> Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the
> requirements of a connection have only focussed on incorporating a DA
> (forwarding) label.  Further, these forwarding labels only need to be
> distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different client layer
> (link-connection) instances within a server layer (network connection)
> resource partition.  However, there are advantages from=20
> having both a SA
> and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not
> just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent=20
> robustness
> under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM flow) is one of
> these.  And of course, these are the nature of the native labels one
> already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins.  So why would
> one even contemplate not using these since they are already there?
>=20
> The VID label is slightly different in that one can consider it as a
> 'route discriminator label' and a local extension to the SA=20
> or DA, ie it
> provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between nodal end
> points.
>=20
> The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'
> does not change the fact that this is what they are.  So I'm not clear
> what your real point is here.
>=20
> regards, Neil
>=20





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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com, Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be,
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  Hi Neil,
   
  I think there is a difference between a "data plane label" which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of information signaled between adjacent controllers for the purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former is always a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance, connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part of the data plane label because it identifies the source of the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node, for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID cross-connects architecture).
   
  So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
   
  Cheers,
  Igor 
  

neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote: Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian 

> > 
> > This is also something we would expect to describe within
> > CCAMP although 
> > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane 
> specification.
> 
> do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the 
> specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does 
> not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no 
> place to discuss any "label processing" and "label 
> distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or link-local
> -
> 
> in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of 
> this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to 
> any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header 
> information field ?
> 
> thanks,
> -d.

What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are?  These are all 'labels'.

You also have to remember that the nature of the labels required in a
traffic unit are determined by the type of the network mode one is
dealing with.

In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
'connection'.  This implies specific architectural requirements....but
the most significant, for this discussion at least, is that a connection
must have a single source.  What this means is that one does not have to
incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under defect-free
conditions it is redundant information as the connection itself provides
the source information.  {Compare this to the cl-ps mode which does not
have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit is essential}

Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the
requirements of a connection have only focussed on incorporating a DA
(forwarding) label.  Further, these forwarding labels only need to be
distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different client layer
(link-connection) instances within a server layer (network connection)
resource partition.  However, there are advantages from having both a SA
and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not
just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent robustness
under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM flow) is one of
these.  And of course, these are the nature of the native labels one
already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins.  So why would
one even contemplate not using these since they are already there?

The VID label is slightly different in that one can consider it as a
'route discriminator label' and a local extension to the SA or DA, ie it
provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between nodal end
points.

The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'
does not change the fact that this is what they are.  So I'm not clear
what your real point is here.

regards, Neil



       
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  <div class="MsoPlainText">Hi Neil,<o:p></o:p></div>  <div class="MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoPlainText">I think there is a difference between a "data plane label" which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of information signaled between adjacent controllers for the purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former is always a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance, connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part of the data plane label because it identifies the source of the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node, for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID cross-connects architecture).<o:p></o:p></div>  <div
 class="MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoPlainText">So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.<o:p></o:p></div>  <div class="MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoPlainText">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></div>  <div class="MsoPlainText">Igor <o:p></o:p></div>  <br><br><b><i>neil.2.harrison@bt.com</i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian <snipped><br><br>&gt; &gt; <br>&gt; &gt; This is also something we would expect to describe within<br>&gt; &gt; CCAMP although <br>&gt; &gt; "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane <br>&gt; specification.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the <br>&gt; specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does <br>&gt; not speak about "label" and its
 encoding there will be no <br>&gt; place to discuss any "label processing" and "label <br>&gt; distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or link-local<br>&gt; -<br>&gt; <br>&gt; in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of <br>&gt; this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to <br>&gt; any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header <br>&gt; information field ?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; thanks,<br>&gt; -d.<br><br>What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are?  These are all 'labels'.<br><br>You also have to remember that the nature of the labels required in a<br>traffic unit are determined by the type of the network mode one is<br>dealing with.<br><br>In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a<br>'connection'.  This implies specific architectural requirements....but<br>the most significant, for this discussion at least, is that a connection<br>must have a single source.  What this means is that one does not have
 to<br>incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under defect-free<br>conditions it is redundant information as the connection itself provides<br>the source information.  {Compare this to the cl-ps mode which does not<br>have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit is essential}<br><br>Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the<br>requirements of a connection have only focussed on incorporating a DA<br>(forwarding) label.  Further, these forwarding labels only need to be<br>distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different client layer<br>(link-connection) instances within a server layer (network connection)<br>resource partition.  However, there are advantages from having both a SA<br>and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not<br>just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent robustness<br>under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM flow) is one of<br>these.  And of
 course, these are the nature of the native labels one<br>already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins.  So why would<br>one even contemplate not using these since they are already there?<br><br>The VID label is slightly different in that one can consider it as a<br>'route discriminator label' and a local extension to the SA or DA, ie it<br>provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between nodal end<br>points.<br><br>The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'<br>does not change the fact that this is what they are.  So I'm not clear<br>what your real point is here.<br><br>regards, Neil<br><br></snipped></blockquote><br><p>&#32;
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From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>
To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>,
        <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
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 hi adrian,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]=20
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:40 PM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> Hi Dimitri,
>=20
> >>> beside the fact that there is an assumption on what
> >>> label means and how it is represented in data plane
> >>
> >> This is also something we would expect to describe within
> >> CCAMP although "what is a label" would come to us from
> >> the data plane specification.
> >
> > do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the specification
> > that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does not speak
> > about "label" and its encoding there will be no place to discuss
> > any "label processing" and "label distribution" protocol in IETF
> > - being domain-wide or link-local
>=20
> I expect the IEEE specification to define the forwarding paradigm.
>=20
> For example: Frames in 802.1Qay are forwarded based on the=20
> checksum value
> carried in the frame.
>=20
> I expect us to build a GMPLS solution that can be used to=20
> configure/install
> that forwarding paradigm.
>=20
> If (for example) the destination MAC is the forwarding=20
> trigger, and the
> destination MAC is also intended to have genuine network-wide=20
> scope and
> identify the recipient of the frame to the whole network,=20
> then the label is
> (by definition) network-scoped.
>=20
> > in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of=20
> this effort
> > since not referring - as of today at least - to any "label"=20
> semantic as
> > part of the Ethernet frame header information field ?
>=20
> No. That is like saying that TDM and lambda were out of scope=20
> for GMPLS because their definitions didn't refer to labels.

we were confronted to that problem a couple of years ago. the
difference with techno's that do not encode label in the "data
plane" is that in the present case, the forwarding itself was
label value dependent

> The point is that a label is the identifier by which traffic=20
> on an interface
> may be identified for forwarding. The data plane spec should=20
> indicate what
> that identifier is, and we call that a label and have to pass=20
> it around in
> signaling.

this is already an extended version of a classical label def.

now, speaking about "label" switching router induces a behaviour that
was not felt "respectful" to the
operations of an Ethernet switch.

it was felt that the control plane was constraining the fwd'ing plane -
in brief, the point was incorporating a source-initiated explicitly
routed data path establishment (with or without the
associated resource reservation) was inducing behaviour not currently
supported by the Ethernet forwarding component - the reason for
maintaining the GELS list at that time was explicitly to maintain a
place where such discussion could happen

> I have no idea whether that means that the .1Q spec is in=20
> scope or not.

independently of this i think we're entering the discussion that was the
key reason why efforts did not succeed... .1Q spec did not change since
then in order to accommodate this. there is a simple hope that another
ongoing effort would allow for such kind of behaviour.

> A
>=20
>=20
>=20




From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 07 16:07:16 2007
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From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>
To: "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com>, <neil.2.harrison@bt.com>,
        <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <zali@cisco.com>, <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>,
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don,=20


interesting 3 years ago you blaim me on the same list when i quoted this
definition when discussing applicability of GMPLS to Ethernet ;-)

the evolution of Ethernet forwarding components themselves leads to an
open issue today compared to the situation we observed a couple of years
ago. if this would not be true one would have not seen since this
definition has been written end 2000 in rfc3945 that there has been
lot's efforts in various bodies involved in Ethernet to incorporate as
part of that technology properties that would facilitate Ethernet
network operations -- and this due to its expected applicability in
environments for which that technology has not been initially designed
for -- and this is whole point actually (*)

back to the point: when that definition was written down it was
understood that adding GMPLS control plane to an Ethernet fowarding
plane would lead to address such expectations. nevertheless, we ack'ed
since the GELS BoF (held by Loa and myself) in 2005 that the
"combination" would be possible if one of the following conditions hold

- IEEE provides a data plane spec. that allows accommodating the fwd'ing
behaviour determined by GMPLS (and all related routing paradigms)

- IEEE ack's that some if its header's field can be processed
equivalently to a per-platform/link-local switching "label" with all its
resulting implications (if fact the answer was never totally clear at
the end)

- GMPLS evolves to sustain all control modes connectionless fwd'ing
would allow (this option was not even discussed)
=20

=3D> hence, the question remains open. i would love to see progress on
that matter (at least that IEEE tells us yes or no) but for the time
being we're left with unilateral interpretations that are blocking real
progress from the std perspective (the problem is mainly not technical
... it is the problem that CCAMP faces each time its prefered control
plane protocol suite tries to cover a technology)

=20
(*) it was felt 2 or 3 years ago that operators could help and provide
us with their expectation in that respect but no real outcome came out
of various tentatives to obtain such type of operational feedback


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:47 PM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; neil.2.harrison@bt.com;=20
> adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;=20
> Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> Dmitri=20
>=20
> Quoting from GMPLS RFC 3945 seems far more applicable given we are
> talking a Generalized label switch router (LSR).
>=20
> "2. Layer-2 Switch Capable (L2SC) interfaces:
>=20
>       Interfaces that recognize frame/cell boundaries and can switch
>       data based on the content of the frame/cell header.  Examples
>       include interfaces on Ethernet bridges that switch data based on
>       the content of the MAC header and interfaces on ATM-LSRs that
>       forward data based on the ATM VPI/VCI. "
>=20
> Don=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
>=20
> point is:=20
>=20
> whether the ethernet frame header fields can be interpreted=20
> as "labels"
> that follows label switching rules applicable to an LSR and=20
> what are the
> implications on forwarding component behaviour when considering such
> "label encoding"
>=20
>=20
> note: per 3031 a label is: a short fixed length physically contiguous
> identifier which is used to identify a FEC, usually of local
> significance.=20
> =20
> -d.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: neil.2.harrison@bt.com [mailto:neil.2.harrison@bt.com]=20
> > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:07 PM
> > To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; adrian@olddog.co.uk;=20
> > zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com;=20
> > ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
> > Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> > Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> >=20
> > Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian=20
> <snipped>
> >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > This is also something we would expect to describe within
> > > > CCAMP although=20
> > > > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane=20
> > > specification.
> > >=20
> > > do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the=20
> > > specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does=20
> > > not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no=20
> > > place to discuss any "label processing" and "label=20
> > > distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or link-local
> > > -
> > >=20
> > > in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of=20
> > > this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to=20
> > > any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header=20
> > > information field ?
> > >=20
> > > thanks,
> > > -d.
> >=20
> > What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are?  These are=20
> > all 'labels'.
> >=20
> > You also have to remember that the nature of the labels=20
> required in a
> > traffic unit are determined by the type of the network mode one is
> > dealing with.
> >=20
> > In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
> > 'connection'.  This implies specific architectural=20
> requirements....but
> > the most significant, for this discussion at least, is that a=20
> > connection
> > must have a single source.  What this means is that one does=20
> > not have to
> > incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under=20
> defect-free
> > conditions it is redundant information as the connection=20
> > itself provides
> > the source information.  {Compare this to the cl-ps mode=20
> > which does not
> > have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit is=20
> essential}
> >=20
> > Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the
> > requirements of a connection have only focussed on=20
> incorporating a DA
> > (forwarding) label.  Further, these forwarding labels only=20
> need to be
> > distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different client layer
> > (link-connection) instances within a server layer (network=20
> connection)
> > resource partition.  However, there are advantages from=20
> > having both a SA
> > and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not
> > just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent=20
> > robustness
> > under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM=20
> flow) is one of
> > these.  And of course, these are the nature of the native labels one
> > already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins.  So=20
> why would
> > one even contemplate not using these since they are already there?
> >=20
> > The VID label is slightly different in that one can consider it as a
> > 'route discriminator label' and a local extension to the SA=20
> > or DA, ie it
> > provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between nodal end
> > points.
> >=20
> > The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'
> > does not change the fact that this is what they are.  So=20
> I'm not clear
> > what your real point is here.
> >=20
> > regards, Neil
> >=20
>=20
>=20




From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 07 17:01:09 2007
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	<adrian@olddog.co.uk>,
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OK, thanks.  I tend to take my cues from the unified modelling work
where I can see (and challenge if need be) the logical derivation of how
labelling and resource partitioning work in each network mode....I don't
see that degree of rigour in the shorter statement below.  Is there
something technically incorrect in what I stated previously?

regards, Neil

> -----Original Message-----
> From: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri
> [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be]=20
> Sent: 07 September 2007 19:23
> To: Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R; adrian@olddog.co.uk;=20
> zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com;=20
> ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
>=20
> point is:
>=20
> whether the ethernet frame header fields can be interpreted
> as "labels" that follows label switching rules applicable to=20
> an LSR and what are the implications on forwarding component=20
> behaviour when considering such "label encoding"
>=20
>=20
> note: per 3031 a label is: a short fixed length physically
> contiguous identifier which is used to identify a FEC,=20
> usually of local significance.=20
> =20
> -d.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: neil.2.harrison@bt.com [mailto:neil.2.harrison@bt.com]
> > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:07 PM
> > To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; adrian@olddog.co.uk;
> > zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com;=20
> > ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
> > Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> > Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> >=20
> > Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian
> <snipped>
> >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > This is also something we would expect to describe within CCAMP
> > > > although "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane
> > > specification.
> > >=20
> > > do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the specification

> > > that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does not speak about=20
> > > "label" and its encoding there will be no place to discuss any=20
> > > "label processing" and "label distribution" protocol in IETF -=20
> > > being domain-wide or link-local
> > > -
> > >=20
> > > in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of this=20
> > > effort since not referring - as of today at least - to any "label"

> > > semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header information field ?
> > >=20
> > > thanks,
> > > -d.
> >=20
> > What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are?  These are all=20
> > 'labels'.
> >=20
> > You also have to remember that the nature of the labels
> required in a
> > traffic unit are determined by the type of the network mode one is
> > dealing with.
> >=20
> > In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
> > 'connection'.  This implies specific architectural=20
> requirements....but
> > the most significant, for this discussion at least, is that a
> > connection must have a single source.  What this means is that one=20
> > does not have to
> > incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under=20
> defect-free
> > conditions it is redundant information as the connection
> > itself provides
> > the source information.  {Compare this to the cl-ps mode=20
> > which does not
> > have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit is=20
> essential}
> >=20
> > Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the
> > requirements of a connection have only focussed on=20
> incorporating a DA
> > (forwarding) label.  Further, these forwarding labels only
> need to be
> > distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different client layer
> > (link-connection) instances within a server layer (network
> connection)
> > resource partition.  However, there are advantages from
> having both a
> > SA and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and
> > not just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent
> > robustness
> > under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM=20
> flow) is one of
> > these.  And of course, these are the nature of the native labels one

> > already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins.  So
> why would
> > one even contemplate not using these since they are already there?
> >=20
> > The VID label is slightly different in that one can
> consider it as a
> > 'route discriminator label' and a local extension to the SA
> or DA, ie
> > it provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between nodal end

> > points.
> >=20
> > The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above quantities as
> 'labels'
> > does not change the fact that this is what they are.  So
> I'm not clear
> > what your real point is here.
> >=20
> > regards, Neil
> >=20
>=20




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From: <neil.2.harrison@bt.com>
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Hi Igor...I understand what you mean...and yes for *forwarding* purposes
(on the assumption the requirements of a connection are met) you are
right.  It is, however, also important for the CP to tell the sink(s) of
the connection what SA it expects to appear in the CV OAM pkts and this
esp important if the co-ps mode layer network is based on the less
optimal label-swapping paradigm.  Of course, if we don't use
label-swapping as in the case of PBB-TE then the CV function (of correct
connectivity verification) appears 'for free' in each/every traffic
unit....not just the OAM pkts, which are really only now required to
distinguish a quiescent traffic case from a simple broken connection.
=20
regards, Neil

-----Original Message-----
From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20
Sent: 07 September 2007 20:21
To: Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be;
adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com;
ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List


Hi Neil,
I think there is a difference between a "data plane label" which is a
Layer Information (LI) used by a given server layer and a "control plane
label", which is a piece of information signaled between adjacent
controllers for the purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former
is always a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance, connection
oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part of the data plane
label because it identifies the source of the connection. However, the
connection frames are forwarded according to MAC DA/VID, and hence
connection ingress node, for example, needs only be signaled with this
tuple by the downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC
DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID
cross-connects architecture).
So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data plane
labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
Cheers,
Igor=20


neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:=20

Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian=20

> >=20
> > This is also something we would expect to describe within
> > CCAMP although=20
> > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane=20
> specification.
>=20
> do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the=20
> specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does=20
> not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no=20
> place to discuss any "label processing" and "label=20
> distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or link-local
> -
>=20
> in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of=20
> this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to=20
> any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header=20
> information field ?
>=20
> thanks,
> -d.

What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These are all 'labels'.

You also have to remember that the nature of the labels required in a
traffic unit are determined by the type of the network mode one is
dealing with.

In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
'connection'. This implies specific architectural requirements....but
the most significant, for this discussion at least, is that a connection
must have a single source. What this means is that one does not have to
incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under defect-free
conditions it is redundant information as the connection itself provides
the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode which does not
have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit is essential}

Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the
requirements of a connection have only focussed on incorporating a DA
(forwarding) label. Further, these forwarding labels only need to be
distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different client layer
(link-connection) instances within a server layer (network connection)
resource partition. However, there are advantages from having both a SA
and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not
just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent robustness
under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM flow) is one of
these. And of course, these are the nature of the native labels one
already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins. So why would
one even contemplate not using these since they are already there?

The VID label is slightly different in that one can consider it as a
'route discriminator label' and a local extension to the SA or DA, ie it
provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between nodal end
points.

The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'
does not change the fact that this is what they are. So I'm not clear
what your real point is here.

regards, Neil






  _____ =20

Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D47093/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222>=

with an Edge to see what's on, when.=20


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<TITLE>Message</TITLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D206501320-07092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2>Hi Igor...I understand what you mean...and yes for *forwarding* =
purposes=20
(on the assumption the requirements of a connection are met) you are=20
right.&nbsp; It is, however, also important for the CP to tell the =
sink(s) of=20
the connection what SA it expects to appear in the CV OAM pkts and this =
esp=20
important if the co-ps mode layer network is based on the less optimal=20
label-swapping paradigm.&nbsp; Of course, if we don't use label-swapping =
as in=20
the case of PBB-TE then the CV function (of correct connectivity =
verification)=20
appears 'for free' in each/every traffic unit....not just the OAM pkts, =
which=20
are really only now required to distinguish a quiescent traffic case =
from a=20
simple broken connection.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D206501320-07092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D206501320-07092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2>regards, Neil</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #800000 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Igor =
Bryskin=20
  [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> 07 September 2007=20
  20:21<BR><B>To:</B> Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R;=20
  Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk; =
zali@cisco.com;=20
  Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;=20
  gels@rtg.ietf.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> rcallon@juniper.net<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
RE:=20
  Closing the GELS Mailing List<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText>Hi Neil,<O:P></O:P></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText><O:P></O:P></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText>I think there is a difference between a =
"data plane=20
  label" which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server layer =
and a=20
  "control plane label", which is a piece of information signaled =
between=20
  adjacent controllers for the purpose of connection provisioning. IMO =
the=20
  former is always a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance,=20
  connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part of the =
data=20
  plane label because it identifies the source of the connection. =
However, the=20
  connection frames are forwarded according to MAC DA/VID, and hence =
connection=20
  ingress node, for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by =
the=20
  downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC DA/VID (or =
just VID,=20
  for those who like the idea of the VID cross-connects=20
  architecture).<O:P></O:P></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText><O:P></O:P></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText>So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the =
definition=20
  of data plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane =
labels.<O:P></O:P></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText><O:P></O:P></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText>Cheers,<O:P></O:P></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText>Igor=20
  <O:P></O:P></DIV><BR><BR><B><I>neil.2.harrison@bt.com</I></B> wrote:=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dreplbq=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">Dimitri=20
    wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian =
<SNIPPED><BR><BR>&gt;=20
    &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; This is also something we would expect to =
describe=20
    within<BR>&gt; &gt; CCAMP although <BR>&gt; &gt; "what is a label" =
would=20
    come to us from the data plane <BR>&gt; specification.<BR>&gt; =
<BR>&gt; do i=20
    interpreet correctly your statement that if the <BR>&gt; =
specification that=20
    CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does <BR>&gt; not speak about =
"label"=20
    and its encoding there will be no <BR>&gt; place to discuss any =
"label=20
    processing" and "label <BR>&gt; distribution" protocol in IETF - =
being=20
    domain-wide or link-local<BR>&gt; -<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; in that case, =
isn't the=20
    .1Q specification outside scope of <BR>&gt; this effort since not =
referring=20
    - as of today at least - to <BR>&gt; any "label" semantic as part of =
the=20
    Ethernet frame header <BR>&gt; information field ?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;=20
    thanks,<BR>&gt; -d.<BR><BR>What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and =
VID are?=20
    These are all 'labels'.<BR><BR>You also have to remember that the =
nature of=20
    the labels required in a<BR>traffic unit are determined by the type =
of the=20
    network mode one is<BR>dealing with.<BR><BR>In the co-cs and co-ps =
modes we=20
    have a construction known as a<BR>'connection'. This implies =
specific=20
    architectural requirements....but<BR>the most significant, for this=20
    discussion at least, is that a connection<BR>must have a single =
source. What=20
    this means is that one does not have to<BR>incorporate a SA label in =
a co=20
    mode traffic unit....under defect-free<BR>conditions it is redundant =

    information as the connection itself provides<BR>the source =
information.=20
    {Compare this to the cl-ps mode which does not<BR>have =
connections...here=20
    having a SA in the traffic unit is essential}<BR><BR>Ergo why co-cs =
and=20
    co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the<BR>requirements of =
a=20
    connection have only focussed on incorporating a DA<BR>(forwarding) =
label.=20
    Further, these forwarding labels only need to be<BR>distinct in =
resolving=20
    some number (N say) of different client layer<BR>(link-connection) =
instances=20
    within a server layer (network connection)<BR>resource partition. =
However,=20
    there are advantages from having both a SA<BR>and DA label in a =
co-ps=20
    traffic unit that are network unique and not<BR>just link-connection =
unique=20
    (ie not swapped)....the inherent robustness<BR>under misconnectivity =
defects=20
    (without any adjunct OAM flow) is one of<BR>these. And of course, =
these are=20
    the nature of the native labels one<BR>already gets in Ethernet due =
to its=20
    cl-ps mode origins. So why would<BR>one even contemplate not using =
these=20
    since they are already there?<BR><BR>The VID label is slightly =
different in=20
    that one can consider it as a<BR>'route discriminator label' and a =
local=20
    extension to the SA or DA, ie it<BR>provides the ability to identify =

    disjoint paths between nodal end<BR>points.<BR><BR>The mere fact =
IEEE may=20
    not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'<BR>does not change the =
fact=20
    that this is what they are. So I'm not clear<BR>what your real point =
is=20
    here.<BR><BR>regards, Neil<BR><BR></SNIPPED></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
  <P>
  <HR SIZE=3D1>
  Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D47093/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collectio=
ns/222">Comedy=20
  with an Edge </A>to see what's on, when. </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: Re: Closing the GELS Mailing List
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Hi Dimitri,

>>> beside the fact that there is an assumption on what
>>> label means and how it is represented in data plane
>>
>> This is also something we would expect to describe within
>> CCAMP although "what is a label" would come to us from
>> the data plane specification.
>
> do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the specification
> that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does not speak
> about "label" and its encoding there will be no place to discuss
> any "label processing" and "label distribution" protocol in IETF
> - being domain-wide or link-local

I expect the IEEE specification to define the forwarding paradigm.

For example: Frames in 802.1Qay are forwarded based on the checksum value
carried in the frame.

I expect us to build a GMPLS solution that can be used to configure/install
that forwarding paradigm.

If (for example) the destination MAC is the forwarding trigger, and the
destination MAC is also intended to have genuine network-wide scope and
identify the recipient of the frame to the whole network, then the label is
(by definition) network-scoped.

> in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of this effort
> since not referring - as of today at least - to any "label" semantic as
> part of the Ethernet frame header information field ?

No. That is like saying that TDM and lambda were out of scope for GMPLS
because their definitions didn't refer to labels.

The point is that a label is the identifier by which traffic on an interface
may be identified for forwarding. The data plane spec should indicate what
that identifier is, and we call that a label and have to pass it around in
signaling.

I have no idea whether that means that the .1Q spec is in scope or not.

A






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From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com, Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be,
  adrian@olddog.co.uk, zali@cisco.com, Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com,
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True, however one can argue that SA is not a label, rather a connection property that the connection ingress knows about and signales downstream (just like bandwidth, for example), while the label is something it does not know yet and needs to get it from downstream so that the downstream node could recognize frames labeled with the label and forward them accordingly.

Have a great weekend.
Igor

neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:   Message    Hi Igor...I understand what you mean...and yes for *forwarding* purposes  (on the assumption the requirements of a connection are met) you are  right.  It is, however, also important for the CP to tell the sink(s) of  the connection what SA it expects to appear in the CV OAM pkts and this esp  important if the co-ps mode layer network is based on the less optimal  label-swapping paradigm.  Of course, if we don't use label-swapping as in  the case of PBB-TE then the CV function (of correct connectivity verification)  appears 'for free' in each/every traffic unit....not just the OAM pkts, which  are really only now required to distinguish a quiescent traffic case from a  simple broken connection.
  
 regards, Neil
    
   -----Original Message-----
From: Igor Bryskin    [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] 
Sent: 07 September 2007    20:21
To: Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R;    Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;    Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;    gels@rtg.ietf.org
Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
Subject: RE:    Closing the GELS Mailing List


   Hi Neil,
   
   I think there is a difference between a "data plane    label" which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server layer and a    "control plane label", which is a piece of information signaled between    adjacent controllers for the purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the    former is always a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance,    connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part of the data    plane label because it identifies the source of the connection. However, the    connection frames are forwarded according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection    ingress node, for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the    downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC DA/VID (or just VID,    for those who like the idea of the VID cross-connects    architecture).
   
   So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition    of data plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
   
   Cheers,
   Igor    


neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:    Dimitri      wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian 

>      > 
> > This is also something we would expect to describe      within
> > CCAMP although 
> > "what is a label" would      come to us from the data plane 
> specification.
> 
> do i      interpreet correctly your statement that if the 
> specification that      CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does 
> not speak about "label"      and its encoding there will be no 
> place to discuss any "label      processing" and "label 
> distribution" protocol in IETF - being      domain-wide or link-local
> -
> 
> in that case, isn't the      .1Q specification outside scope of 
> this effort since not referring      - as of today at least - to 
> any "label" semantic as part of the      Ethernet frame header 
> information field ?
> 
>      thanks,
> -d.

What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are?      These are all 'labels'.

You also have to remember that the nature of      the labels required in a
traffic unit are determined by the type of the      network mode one is
dealing with.

In the co-cs and co-ps modes we      have a construction known as a
'connection'. This implies specific      architectural requirements....but
the most significant, for this      discussion at least, is that a connection
must have a single source. What      this means is that one does not have to
incorporate a SA label in a co      mode traffic unit....under defect-free
conditions it is redundant      information as the connection itself provides
the source information.      {Compare this to the cl-ps mode which does not
have connections...here      having a SA in the traffic unit is essential}

Ergo why co-cs and      co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the
requirements of a      connection have only focussed on incorporating a DA
(forwarding) label.      Further, these forwarding labels only need to be
distinct in resolving      some number (N say) of different client layer
(link-connection) instances      within a server layer (network connection)
resource partition. However,      there are advantages from having both a SA
and DA label in a co-ps      traffic unit that are network unique and not
just link-connection unique      (ie not swapped)....the inherent robustness
under misconnectivity defects      (without any adjunct OAM flow) is one of
these. And of course, these are      the nature of the native labels one
already gets in Ethernet due to its      cl-ps mode origins. So why would
one even contemplate not using these      since they are already there?

The VID label is slightly different in      that one can consider it as a
'route discriminator label' and a local      extension to the SA or DA, ie it
provides the ability to identify      disjoint paths between nodal end
points.

The mere fact IEEE may      not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'
does not change the fact      that this is what they are. So I'm not clear
what your real point is      here.

regards, Neil


      

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True, however one can argue that SA is not a label, rather a connection property that the connection ingress knows about and signales downstream (just like bandwidth, for example), while the label is something it does not know yet and needs to get it from downstream so that the downstream node could recognize frames labeled with the label and forward them accordingly.<br><br>Have a great weekend.<br>Igor<br><br><b><i>neil.2.harrison@bt.com</i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;">   <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"><title>Message</title>   <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name="GENERATOR"> <div><span class="206501320-07092007"><font color="#800000" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">Hi Igor...I understand what you mean...and yes for *forwarding* purposes  (on the assumption the requirements of a connection are met) you are  right.&nbsp; It is, however,
 also important for the CP to tell the sink(s) of  the connection what SA it expects to appear in the CV OAM pkts and this esp  important if the co-ps mode layer network is based on the less optimal  label-swapping paradigm.&nbsp; Of course, if we don't use label-swapping as in  the case of PBB-TE then the CV function (of correct connectivity verification)  appears 'for free' in each/every traffic unit....not just the OAM pkts, which  are really only now required to distinguish a quiescent traffic case from a  simple broken connection.</font></span></div> <div><span class="206501320-07092007"><font color="#800000" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2"></font></span>&nbsp;</div> <div><span class="206501320-07092007"><font color="#800000" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">regards, Neil</font></span></div> <blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(128, 0, 0); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">   <div></div>   <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr"
 align="left" lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Original Message-----<br><b>From:</b> Igor Bryskin    [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> 07 September 2007    20:21<br><b>To:</b> Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R;    Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;    Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;    gels@rtg.ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> rcallon@juniper.net<br><b>Subject:</b> RE:    Closing the GELS Mailing List<br><br></font></div>   <div class="MsoPlainText">Hi Neil,<O:P></O:P></div>   <div class="MsoPlainText"><O:P></O:P></div>   <div class="MsoPlainText">I think there is a difference between a "data plane    label" which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server layer and a    "control plane label", which is a piece of information signaled between    adjacent controllers for the purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the    former is always a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance,    connection
 oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part of the data    plane label because it identifies the source of the connection. However, the    connection frames are forwarded according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection    ingress node, for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the    downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC DA/VID (or just VID,    for those who like the idea of the VID cross-connects    architecture).<O:P></O:P></div>   <div class="MsoPlainText"><O:P></O:P></div>   <div class="MsoPlainText">So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition    of data plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.<O:P></O:P></div>   <div class="MsoPlainText"><O:P></O:P></div>   <div class="MsoPlainText">Cheers,<O:P></O:P></div>   <div class="MsoPlainText">Igor    <O:P></O:P></div><br><br><b><i>neil.2.harrison@bt.com</i></b> wrote:    <blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px;
 margin-left: 5px;">Dimitri      wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian <SNIPPED><br><br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt; &gt; This is also something we would expect to describe      within<br>&gt; &gt; CCAMP although <br>&gt; &gt; "what is a label" would      come to us from the data plane <br>&gt; specification.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; do i      interpreet correctly your statement that if the <br>&gt; specification that      CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does <br>&gt; not speak about "label"      and its encoding there will be no <br>&gt; place to discuss any "label      processing" and "label <br>&gt; distribution" protocol in IETF - being      domain-wide or link-local<br>&gt; -<br>&gt; <br>&gt; in that case, isn't the      .1Q specification outside scope of <br>&gt; this effort since not referring      - as of today at least - to <br>&gt; any "label" semantic as part of the      Ethernet frame header <br>&gt; information field ?<br>&gt; <br>&gt;      thanks,<br>&gt;
 -d.<br><br>What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are?      These are all 'labels'.<br><br>You also have to remember that the nature of      the labels required in a<br>traffic unit are determined by the type of the      network mode one is<br>dealing with.<br><br>In the co-cs and co-ps modes we      have a construction known as a<br>'connection'. This implies specific      architectural requirements....but<br>the most significant, for this      discussion at least, is that a connection<br>must have a single source. What      this means is that one does not have to<br>incorporate a SA label in a co      mode traffic unit....under defect-free<br>conditions it is redundant      information as the connection itself provides<br>the source information.      {Compare this to the cl-ps mode which does not<br>have connections...here      having a SA in the traffic unit is essential}<br><br>Ergo why co-cs and      co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the<br>requirements
 of a      connection have only focussed on incorporating a DA<br>(forwarding) label.      Further, these forwarding labels only need to be<br>distinct in resolving      some number (N say) of different client layer<br>(link-connection) instances      within a server layer (network connection)<br>resource partition. However,      there are advantages from having both a SA<br>and DA label in a co-ps      traffic unit that are network unique and not<br>just link-connection unique      (ie not swapped)....the inherent robustness<br>under misconnectivity defects      (without any adjunct OAM flow) is one of<br>these. And of course, these are      the nature of the native labels one<br>already gets in Ethernet due to its      cl-ps mode origins. So why would<br>one even contemplate not using these      since they are already there?<br><br>The VID label is slightly different in      that one can consider it as a<br>'route discriminator label' and a local      extension to the SA
 or DA, ie it<br>provides the ability to identify      disjoint paths between nodal end<br>points.<br><br>The mere fact IEEE may      not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'<br>does not change the fact      that this is what they are. So I'm not clear<br>what your real point is      here.<br><br>regards, Neil<br><br></SNIPPED></blockquote><br>   <div>   </div><hr size="1">   Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=47093/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222">Comedy    with an Edge </a>to see what's on, when. </blockquote></blockquote><br><p>&#32;
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Hi Igor, I'd disagree with you for the reasons I attempted to explain to
Dimitri, ie depends on the network mode....in the cl-ps mode the SA
*label* is pretty important.  The only reason we have usually not
traditionally incorporated a SA label in co mode network traffic units
is that, under misconnectivity defect-free conditions, it is redundant
information...the connection itself provides that information.  However,
there are important benefits to be had from having a SA in each/every
traffic unit, and if these are already there 'for free' then it would be
sheer folly not to recognise them for what they are and use them.
=20
regards, Neil...have great weekend yourself, I'm signing off now.

-----Original Message-----
From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20
Sent: 07 September 2007 22:33
To: Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be;
adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com;
ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List


True, however one can argue that SA is not a label, rather a connection
property that the connection ingress knows about and signales downstream
(just like bandwidth, for example), while the label is something it does
not know yet and needs to get it from downstream so that the downstream
node could recognize frames labeled with the label and forward them
accordingly.

Have a great weekend.
Igor

neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:=20

Hi Igor...I understand what you mean...and yes for *forwarding* purposes
(on the assumption the requirements of a connection are met) you are
right.  It is, however, also important for the CP to tell the sink(s) of
the connection what SA it expects to appear in the CV OAM pkts and this
esp important if the co-ps mode layer network is based on the less
optimal label-swapping paradigm.  Of course, if we don't use
label-swapping as in the case of PBB-TE then the CV function (of correct
connectivity verification) appears 'for free' in each/every traffic
unit....not just the OAM pkts, which are really only now required to
distinguish a quiescent traffic case from a simple broken connection.
=20
regards, Neil

-----Original Message-----
From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20
Sent: 07 September 2007 20:21
To: Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be;
adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com;
ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List


Hi Neil,
I think there is a difference between a "data plane label" which is a
Layer Information (LI) used by a given server layer and a "control plane
label", which is a piece of information signaled between adjacent
controllers for the purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former
is always a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance, connection
oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part of the data plane
label because it identifies the source of the connection. However, the
connection frames are forwarded according to MAC DA/VID, and hence
connection ingress node, for example, needs only be signaled with this
tuple by the downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC
DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID
cross-connects architecture).
So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data plane
labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
Cheers,
Igor=20


neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:=20

Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian=20

> >=20
> > This is also something we would expect to describe within
> > CCAMP although=20
> > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane=20
> specification.
>=20
> do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the=20
> specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does=20
> not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no=20
> place to discuss any "label processing" and "label=20
> distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or link-local
> -
>=20
> in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of=20
> this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to=20
> any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header=20
> information field ?
>=20
> thanks,
> -d.

What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These are all 'labels'.

You also have to remember that the nature of the labels required in a
traffic unit are determined by the type of the network mode one is
dealing with.

In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
'connection'. This implies specific architectural requirements....but
the most significant, for this discussion at least, is that a connection
must have a single source. What this means is that one does not have to
incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under defect-free
conditions it is redundant information as the connection itself provides
the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode which does not
have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit is essential}

Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the
requirements of a connection have only focussed on incorporating a DA
(forwarding) label. Further, these forwarding labels only need to be
distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different client layer
(link-connection) instances within a server layer (network connection)
resource partition. However, there are advantages from having both a SA
and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not
just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent robustness
under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM flow) is one of
these. And of course, these are the nature of the native labels one
already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins. So why would
one even contemplate not using these since they are already there?

The VID label is slightly different in that one can consider it as a
'route discriminator label' and a local extension to the SA or DA, ie it
provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between nodal end
points.

The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'
does not change the fact that this is what they are. So I'm not clear
what your real point is here.

regards, Neil




  _____ =20

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<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D47093/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222>=

with an Edge to see what's on, when.=20




  _____ =20

Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D48252/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/on=
e
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D002183521-07092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2>Hi Igor, I'd disagree with you for the reasons I attempted to =
explain to=20
Dimitri, ie depends on the network mode....in the cl-ps mode the SA =
*label* is=20
pretty important.&nbsp; The only reason we have usually not =
traditionally=20
incorporated a SA label in co mode network traffic units is that, under=20
misconnectivity defect-free conditions, it is redundant =
information...the=20
connection itself provides that information.&nbsp; However, there are =
important=20
benefits to be had from having a SA in each/every traffic unit, and if =
these are=20
already there 'for free' then it would be sheer folly not to recognise =
them for=20
what they are and use them.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D002183521-07092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D002183521-07092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2>regards, Neil...have great weekend yourself, I'm signing off=20
now.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #800000 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Igor =
Bryskin=20
  [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> 07 September 2007=20
  22:33<BR><B>To:</B> Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R;=20
  Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk; =
zali@cisco.com;=20
  Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;=20
  gels@rtg.ietf.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> rcallon@juniper.net<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
RE:=20
  Closing the GELS Mailing List<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>True, however one =
can argue=20
  that SA is not a label, rather a connection property that the =
connection=20
  ingress knows about and signales downstream (just like bandwidth, for=20
  example), while the label is something it does not know yet and needs =
to get=20
  it from downstream so that the downstream node could recognize frames =
labeled=20
  with the label and forward them accordingly.<BR><BR>Have a great=20
  weekend.<BR>Igor<BR><BR><B><I>neil.2.harrison@bt.com</I></B> wrote:
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dreplbq=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
    <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name=3DGENERATOR>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D206501320-07092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
    size=3D2>Hi Igor...I understand what you mean...and yes for =
*forwarding*=20
    purposes (on the assumption the requirements of a connection are =
met) you=20
    are right.&nbsp; It is, however, also important for the CP to tell =
the=20
    sink(s) of the connection what SA it expects to appear in the CV OAM =
pkts=20
    and this esp important if the co-ps mode layer network is based on =
the less=20
    optimal label-swapping paradigm.&nbsp; Of course, if we don't use=20
    label-swapping as in the case of PBB-TE then the CV function (of =
correct=20
    connectivity verification) appears 'for free' in each/every traffic=20
    unit....not just the OAM pkts, which are really only now required to =

    distinguish a quiescent traffic case from a simple broken=20
    connection.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D206501320-07092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
    size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D206501320-07092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
    size=3D2>regards, Neil</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(128,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV></DIV>
      <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
      face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
Igor Bryskin=20
      [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> 07 September 2007=20
      20:21<BR><B>To:</B> Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R;=20
      Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk;=20
      zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;=20
      gels@rtg.ietf.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> =
rcallon@juniper.net<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:=20
      Closing the GELS Mailing List<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText>Hi Neil,<O:P></O:P></DIV>
      <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText><O:P></O:P></DIV>
      <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText>I think there is a difference between a =
"data=20
      plane label" which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given =
server=20
      layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of information =

      signaled between adjacent controllers for the purpose of =
connection=20
      provisioning. IMO the former is always a superset of the latter. =
Let's=20
      take, for instance, connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very =

      important part of the data plane label because it identifies the =
source of=20
      the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded =
according to=20
      MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node, for example, needs =
only be=20
      signaled with this tuple by the downstream neighbor, hence the =
control=20
      plane label is MAC DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the =
idea of the=20
      VID cross-connects architecture).<O:P></O:P></DIV>
      <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText><O:P></O:P></DIV>
      <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText>So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for =
the=20
      definition of data plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane=20
      labels.<O:P></O:P></DIV>
      <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText><O:P></O:P></DIV>
      <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText>Cheers,<O:P></O:P></DIV>
      <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText>Igor=20
      <O:P></O:P></DIV><BR><BR><B><I>neil.2.harrison@bt.com</I></B> =
wrote:=20
      <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dreplbq=20
      style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">Dimitri=20
        wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian=20
        <SNIPPED><BR><BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; This is also something =
we would=20
        expect to describe within<BR>&gt; &gt; CCAMP although <BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
        "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane <BR>&gt;=20
        specification.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; do i interpreet correctly your =
statement=20
        that if the <BR>&gt; specification that CCAMP is going to =
receive from=20
        IEEE does <BR>&gt; not speak about "label" and its encoding =
there will=20
        be no <BR>&gt; place to discuss any "label processing" and =
"label=20
        <BR>&gt; distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or=20
        link-local<BR>&gt; -<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; in that case, isn't the =
.1Q=20
        specification outside scope of <BR>&gt; this effort since not =
referring=20
        - as of today at least - to <BR>&gt; any "label" semantic as =
part of the=20
        Ethernet frame header <BR>&gt; information field ?<BR>&gt; =
<BR>&gt;=20
        thanks,<BR>&gt; -d.<BR><BR>What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA =
and VID=20
        are? These are all 'labels'.<BR><BR>You also have to remember =
that the=20
        nature of the labels required in a<BR>traffic unit are =
determined by the=20
        type of the network mode one is<BR>dealing with.<BR><BR>In the =
co-cs and=20
        co-ps modes we have a construction known as a<BR>'connection'. =
This=20
        implies specific architectural requirements....but<BR>the most=20
        significant, for this discussion at least, is that a =
connection<BR>must=20
        have a single source. What this means is that one does not have=20
        to<BR>incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under=20
        defect-free<BR>conditions it is redundant information as the =
connection=20
        itself provides<BR>the source information. {Compare this to the =
cl-ps=20
        mode which does not<BR>have connections...here having a SA in =
the=20
        traffic unit is essential}<BR><BR>Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode=20
        technologies to date that respect the<BR>requirements of a =
connection=20
        have only focussed on incorporating a DA<BR>(forwarding) label. =
Further,=20
        these forwarding labels only need to be<BR>distinct in resolving =
some=20
        number (N say) of different client layer<BR>(link-connection) =
instances=20
        within a server layer (network connection)<BR>resource =
partition.=20
        However, there are advantages from having both a SA<BR>and DA =
label in a=20
        co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not<BR>just=20
        link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent=20
        robustness<BR>under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct =
OAM=20
        flow) is one of<BR>these. And of course, these are the nature of =
the=20
        native labels one<BR>already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps =
mode=20
        origins. So why would<BR>one even contemplate not using these =
since they=20
        are already there?<BR><BR>The VID label is slightly different in =
that=20
        one can consider it as a<BR>'route discriminator label' and a =
local=20
        extension to the SA or DA, ie it<BR>provides the ability to =
identify=20
        disjoint paths between nodal end<BR>points.<BR><BR>The mere fact =
IEEE=20
        may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'<BR>does not =
change the=20
        fact that this is what they are. So I'm not clear<BR>what your =
real=20
        point is here.<BR><BR>regards, =
Neil<BR><BR></SNIPPED></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
      <DIV></DIV>
      <HR SIZE=3D1>
      Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's <A=20
      =
href=3D"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D47093/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collectio=
ns/222">Comedy=20
      with an Edge </A>to see what's on, when. =
</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
  <P>
  <HR SIZE=3D1>
  Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D48252/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobil=
eweb/onesearch?refer=3D1ONXIC">mobile=20
  search that gives answers</A>, not web links. =
</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:58:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com, Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be,
  adrian@olddog.co.uk, zali@cisco.com, Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com,
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I fully understand what are saying and I think we are in agreement here: I am not saying that SA is unimportant, quite on the contrary. What I am saying is that SA is not a label in the CP signaling sense, rather, it is a property that is signaled in the opposite direction compared to one the label is signaled (like bandwidth, link affinities, etc.)

Igor

neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:   Message    Hi Igor, I'd disagree with you for the reasons I attempted to explain to  Dimitri, ie depends on the network mode....in the cl-ps mode the SA *label* is  pretty important.  The only reason we have usually not traditionally  incorporated a SA label in co mode network traffic units is that, under  misconnectivity defect-free conditions, it is redundant information...the  connection itself provides that information.  However, there are important  benefits to be had from having a SA in each/every traffic unit, and if these are  already there 'for free' then it would be sheer folly not to recognise them for  what they are and use them.
  
 regards, Neil...have great weekend yourself, I'm signing off  now.
    
   -----Original Message-----
From: Igor Bryskin    [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] 
Sent: 07 September 2007    22:33
To: Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R;    Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;    Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;    gels@rtg.ietf.org
Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
Subject: RE:    Closing the GELS Mailing List


True, however one can argue    that SA is not a label, rather a connection property that the connection    ingress knows about and signales downstream (just like bandwidth, for    example), while the label is something it does not know yet and needs to get    it from downstream so that the downstream node could recognize frames labeled    with the label and forward them accordingly.

Have a great    weekend.
Igor

neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:             Hi Igor...I understand what you mean...and yes for *forwarding*      purposes (on the assumption the requirements of a connection are met) you      are right.  It is, however, also important for the CP to tell the      sink(s) of the connection what SA it expects to appear in the CV OAM pkts      and this esp important if the co-ps mode layer network is based on the less      optimal label-swapping paradigm.  Of course, if we don't use      label-swapping as in the case of PBB-TE then the CV function (of correct      connectivity verification) appears 'for free' in each/every traffic      unit....not just the OAM pkts, which are really only now required to      distinguish a quiescent traffic case from a simple broken      connection.
      
     regards, Neil
            
       -----Original Message-----
From: Igor Bryskin        [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] 
Sent: 07 September 2007        20:21
To: Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R;        Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk;        zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;        gels@rtg.ietf.org
Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
Subject: RE:        Closing the GELS Mailing List


       Hi Neil,
       
       I think there is a difference between a "data        plane label" which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server        layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of information        signaled between adjacent controllers for the purpose of connection        provisioning. IMO the former is always a superset of the latter. Let's        take, for instance, connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very        important part of the data plane label because it identifies the source of        the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded according to        MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node, for example, needs only be        signaled with this tuple by the downstream neighbor, hence the control        plane label is MAC DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the        VID cross-connects architecture).
       
       So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the        definition of data plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane        labels.
       
       Cheers,
       Igor        


neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:        Dimitri          wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian          

> > 
> > This is also something we would          expect to describe within
> > CCAMP although 
> >          "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane 
>          specification.
> 
> do i interpreet correctly your statement          that if the 
> specification that CCAMP is going to receive from          IEEE does 
> not speak about "label" and its encoding there will          be no 
> place to discuss any "label processing" and "label          
> distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or          link-local
> -
> 
> in that case, isn't the .1Q          specification outside scope of 
> this effort since not referring          - as of today at least - to 
> any "label" semantic as part of the          Ethernet frame header 
> information field ?
> 
>          thanks,
> -d.

What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID          are? These are all 'labels'.

You also have to remember that the          nature of the labels required in a
traffic unit are determined by the          type of the network mode one is
dealing with.

In the co-cs and          co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
'connection'. This          implies specific architectural requirements....but
the most          significant, for this discussion at least, is that a connection
must          have a single source. What this means is that one does not have          to
incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under          defect-free
conditions it is redundant information as the connection          itself provides
the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps          mode which does not
have connections...here having a SA in the          traffic unit is essential}

Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode          technologies to date that respect the
requirements of a connection          have only focussed on incorporating a DA
(forwarding) label. Further,          these forwarding labels only need to be
distinct in resolving some          number (N say) of different client layer
(link-connection) instances          within a server layer (network connection)
resource partition.          However, there are advantages from having both a SA
and DA label in a          co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not
just          link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent          robustness
under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM          flow) is one of
these. And of course, these are the nature of the          native labels one
already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode          origins. So why would
one even contemplate not using these since they          are already there?

The VID label is slightly different in that          one can consider it as a
'route discriminator label' and a local          extension to the SA or DA, ie it
provides the ability to identify          disjoint paths between nodal end
points.

The mere fact IEEE          may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'
does not change the          fact that this is what they are. So I'm not clear
what your real          point is here.

regards, Neil


       
       
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I fully understand what are saying and I think we are in agreement here: I am not saying that SA is unimportant, quite on the contrary. What I am saying is that SA is not a label in the CP signaling sense, rather, it is a property that is signaled in the opposite direction compared to one the label is signaled (like bandwidth, link affinities, etc.)<br><br>Igor<br><br><b><i>neil.2.harrison@bt.com</i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;">   <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"><title>Message</title>   <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name="GENERATOR"> <div><span class="002183521-07092007"><font color="#800000" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">Hi Igor, I'd disagree with you for the reasons I attempted to explain to  Dimitri, ie depends on the network mode....in the cl-ps mode the SA *label* is  pretty important.&nbsp; The only reason we have usually not
 traditionally  incorporated a SA label in co mode network traffic units is that, under  misconnectivity defect-free conditions, it is redundant information...the  connection itself provides that information.&nbsp; However, there are important  benefits to be had from having a SA in each/every traffic unit, and if these are  already there 'for free' then it would be sheer folly not to recognise them for  what they are and use them.</font></span></div> <div><span class="002183521-07092007"><font color="#800000" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2"></font></span>&nbsp;</div> <div><span class="002183521-07092007"><font color="#800000" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">regards, Neil...have great weekend yourself, I'm signing off  now.</font></span></div> <blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(128, 0, 0); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">   <div></div>   <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" align="left" lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"
 size="2">-----Original Message-----<br><b>From:</b> Igor Bryskin    [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> 07 September 2007    22:33<br><b>To:</b> Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R;    Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;    Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;    gels@rtg.ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> rcallon@juniper.net<br><b>Subject:</b> RE:    Closing the GELS Mailing List<br><br></font></div>True, however one can argue    that SA is not a label, rather a connection property that the connection    ingress knows about and signales downstream (just like bandwidth, for    example), while the label is something it does not know yet and needs to get    it from downstream so that the downstream node could recognize frames labeled    with the label and forward them accordingly.<br><br>Have a great    weekend.<br>Igor<br><br><b><i>neil.2.harrison@bt.com</i></b> wrote:   <blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16,
 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">     <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name="GENERATOR">     <div><span class="206501320-07092007"><font color="#800000" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">Hi Igor...I understand what you mean...and yes for *forwarding*      purposes (on the assumption the requirements of a connection are met) you      are right.&nbsp; It is, however, also important for the CP to tell the      sink(s) of the connection what SA it expects to appear in the CV OAM pkts      and this esp important if the co-ps mode layer network is based on the less      optimal label-swapping paradigm.&nbsp; Of course, if we don't use      label-swapping as in the case of PBB-TE then the CV function (of correct      connectivity verification) appears 'for free' in each/every traffic      unit....not just the OAM pkts, which are really only now required to      distinguish a quiescent traffic case from a simple broken      connection.</font></span></div>    
 <div><span class="206501320-07092007"><font color="#800000" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2"></font></span>&nbsp;</div>     <div><span class="206501320-07092007"><font color="#800000" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">regards, Neil</font></span></div>     <blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(128, 0, 0); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">       <div></div>       <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" align="left" lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Original Message-----<br><b>From:</b> Igor Bryskin        [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> 07 September 2007        20:21<br><b>To:</b> Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R;        Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk;        zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;        gels@rtg.ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> rcallon@juniper.net<br><b>Subject:</b> RE:        Closing the GELS Mailing List<br><br></font></div>       <div class="MsoPlainText">Hi
 Neil,<O:P></O:P></div>       <div class="MsoPlainText"><O:P></O:P></div>       <div class="MsoPlainText">I think there is a difference between a "data        plane label" which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server        layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of information        signaled between adjacent controllers for the purpose of connection        provisioning. IMO the former is always a superset of the latter. Let's        take, for instance, connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very        important part of the data plane label because it identifies the source of        the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded according to        MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node, for example, needs only be        signaled with this tuple by the downstream neighbor, hence the control        plane label is MAC DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the        VID cross-connects
 architecture).<O:P></O:P></div>       <div class="MsoPlainText"><O:P></O:P></div>       <div class="MsoPlainText">So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the        definition of data plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane        labels.<O:P></O:P></div>       <div class="MsoPlainText"><O:P></O:P></div>       <div class="MsoPlainText">Cheers,<O:P></O:P></div>       <div class="MsoPlainText">Igor        <O:P></O:P></div><br><br><b><i>neil.2.harrison@bt.com</i></b> wrote:        <blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">Dimitri          wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian          <SNIPPED><br><br>&gt; &gt; <br>&gt; &gt; This is also something we would          expect to describe within<br>&gt; &gt; CCAMP although <br>&gt; &gt;          "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane <br>&gt;          specification.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; do i interpreet correctly your statement      
    that if the <br>&gt; specification that CCAMP is going to receive from          IEEE does <br>&gt; not speak about "label" and its encoding there will          be no <br>&gt; place to discuss any "label processing" and "label          <br>&gt; distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or          link-local<br>&gt; -<br>&gt; <br>&gt; in that case, isn't the .1Q          specification outside scope of <br>&gt; this effort since not referring          - as of today at least - to <br>&gt; any "label" semantic as part of the          Ethernet frame header <br>&gt; information field ?<br>&gt; <br>&gt;          thanks,<br>&gt; -d.<br><br>What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID          are? These are all 'labels'.<br><br>You also have to remember that the          nature of the labels required in a<br>traffic unit are determined by the          type of the network mode one is<br>dealing with.<br><br>In the co-cs and          co-ps modes we have a construction
 known as a<br>'connection'. This          implies specific architectural requirements....but<br>the most          significant, for this discussion at least, is that a connection<br>must          have a single source. What this means is that one does not have          to<br>incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under          defect-free<br>conditions it is redundant information as the connection          itself provides<br>the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps          mode which does not<br>have connections...here having a SA in the          traffic unit is essential}<br><br>Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode          technologies to date that respect the<br>requirements of a connection          have only focussed on incorporating a DA<br>(forwarding) label. Further,          these forwarding labels only need to be<br>distinct in resolving some          number (N say) of different client layer<br>(link-connection) instances          within a server
 layer (network connection)<br>resource partition.          However, there are advantages from having both a SA<br>and DA label in a          co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not<br>just          link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent          robustness<br>under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM          flow) is one of<br>these. And of course, these are the nature of the          native labels one<br>already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode          origins. So why would<br>one even contemplate not using these since they          are already there?<br><br>The VID label is slightly different in that          one can consider it as a<br>'route discriminator label' and a local          extension to the SA or DA, ie it<br>provides the ability to identify          disjoint paths between nodal end<br>points.<br><br>The mere fact IEEE          may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'<br>does not change the         
 fact that this is what they are. So I'm not clear<br>what your real          point is here.<br><br>regards, Neil<br><br></SNIPPED></blockquote><br>       <div></div>       <hr size="1">       Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=47093/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222">Comedy        with an Edge </a>to see what's on, when. </blockquote></blockquote><br>   <div>   </div><hr size="1">   Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48252/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC">mobile    search that gives answers</a>, not web links. </blockquote></blockquote><br><p>&#32;
      <hr size=1>Shape Yahoo! in your own image.  
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From ljm@cinablog.com Fri Sep 07 22:35:51 2007
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From: "Maryann Fair" <ljm@cinablog.com>
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Subject: you have nothing to lose, just a lot to gain!
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 11:35:47 +0900
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MegaDik will increase the capacity limit of the Corpora Cavernosa
http://palcheo.com




From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 07 22:47:19 2007
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Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Fw: liaison to IETF (ccamp, MPLS, BFD, PWE3, and L3VPN)  on MFA Forum MPLS ICI
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 22:57:09 +0100
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Hi,

Here is another liaison from the MFA Forum.

This one asks for our review of a new specification, but gives no deadline 
for the review.

See the liaison and the specification at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm

Cheers,
Adrian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "J. Rao Cherukuri" <cherukuri@juniper.net>
To: <IAB@ietf.org>; <statements@ietf.org>; <adrian@olddog.co.uk>; 
<dbrungard@att.com>; <rick.wilder@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ronald Bonica" 
<rbonica@juniper.net>; "Stewart Bryant (stbryant)" <stbryant@cisco.com>; 
<danny@arbor.net>; <dward@cisco.com>; <jhaas@pfrc.org>; "George Swallow 
(swallow)" <swallow@cisco.com>; "Loa Andersson" <loa@pi.se>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>; <townsley@cisco.com>; 
<jari.arkko@piuha.net>; "David Sinicrope (RL/TNT)" 
<david.sinicrope@ericsson.com>; <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>; "Bocci, 
Matthew (Matthew)" <matthew.bocci@alcatel-lucent.co.uk>; "J. Rao Cherukuri" 
<cherukuri@juniper.net>; <nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 1:28 AM
Subject: liaison to IETF (ccamp, MPLS, BFD, PWE3, and L3VPN) on MFA Forum 
MPLS ICI

Dear All,

The MFA Forum is currently working on an MPLS Inter-Carrier Interconnect
(MPLS-ICI) specification to support IP VPNs, MPLS Pseudo Wires, Data
Trunks, and VoIP. This specification is being driven by the MFA Forum
service provider members.

The objective of this Technical Specification is to enable a set of MPLS
services, across administrative domains operated by different carriers.
The MPLS ICI is a bi-directional IP-MPLS logical link between an
Autonomous System Border Router (ASBR) in one service provider network
and an ASBR in another service provider network.

This document is targeted to equipment vendors to specify the necessary
ASBR requirements and to service providers to provide guidance on how to
use these capabilities. This document uses protocols developed in
appropriate standard bodies (e.g., IETF, ITU) where applicable.

This document is in our first level ballot procedure.

Please review and provide comments.

Thank you for your consideration of this matter.

Cordially,

David Sinicrope,
A&D Chair, MFA Forum

Rao Cherukuri
Chairman, MFA Forum Technical Committee
(draft MPLS ICI)






From Nam@mt-company.net Sat Sep 08 00:36:20 2007
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http://haofir.com/
Wazzup ccamp-archive
When I looked in the mirror after every shower, I couldn=92t help but =
wonder whether or not I was average. After doing some research online, I =
realized that I was  under-average =3D (

mitricoaia eberle
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>When I looked in the mirror after every =
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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sat Sep 08 04:15:04 2007
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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
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From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>
To: "Igor Bryskin" <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, <neil.2.harrison@bt.com>,
        <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <zali@cisco.com>, <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>,
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igor,

> So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data=20
> plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.

a label distribution protocol is a set of procedures by which one node
informs another of the label/FEC bindings it has made

if these labels are distributed via the gmpls control plane driving
population of the LIBs to which difference are u pointing out here ? so,
not sure to see the point (whatever the number of levels of indirection
between the fwd'ing plane encoding and control plane encoding u will
always fall back on the former, the label distribution protocol
exchanges a piece of information used by the nodes to perform their
forwarding decision)=20

-d.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:21 PM
> To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com; PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri;=20
> adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;=20
> Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> Hi Neil,
> =20
> I think there is a difference between a "data plane label"=20
> which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server=20
> layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of=20
> information signaled between adjacent controllers for the=20
> purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former is always=20
> a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance,=20
> connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part=20
> of the data plane label because it identifies the source of=20
> the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded=20
> according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node,=20
> for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the=20
> downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC=20
> DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID=20
> cross-connects architecture).
> =20
> So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data=20
> plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
> =20
> Cheers,
> Igor=20
>=20
>=20
> neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:
>=20
> 	Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian=20
> =09
> 	> >=20
> 	> > This is also something we would expect to describe within
> 	> > CCAMP although=20
> 	> > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane=20
> 	> specification.
> 	>=20
> 	> do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the=20
> 	> specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does=20
> 	> not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no=20
> 	> place to discuss any "label processing" and "label=20
> 	> distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or=20
> link-local
> 	> -
> 	>=20
> 	> in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of=20
> 	> this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to=20
> 	> any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header=20
> 	> information field ?
> 	>=20
> 	> thanks,
> 	> -d.
> =09
> 	What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These=20
> are all 'labels'.
> =09
> 	You also have to remember that the nature of the labels=20
> required in a
> 	traffic unit are determined by the type of the network=20
> mode one is
> 	dealing with.
> =09
> 	In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
> 	'connection'. This implies specific architectural=20
> requirements....but
> 	the most significant, for this discussion at least, is=20
> that a connection
> 	must have a single source. What this means is that one=20
> does not have to
> 	incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic=20
> unit....under defect-free
> 	conditions it is redundant information as the=20
> connection itself provides
> 	the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode=20
> which does not
> 	have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit=20
> is essential}
> =09
> 	Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that=20
> respect the
> 	requirements of a connection have only focussed on=20
> incorporating a DA
> 	(forwarding) label. Further, these forwarding labels=20
> only need to be
> 	distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different=20
> client layer
> 	(link-connection) instances within a server layer=20
> (network connection)
> 	resource partition. However, there are advantages from=20
> having both a SA
> 	and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network=20
> unique and not
> 	just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the=20
> inherent robustness
> 	under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM=20
> flow) is one of
> 	these. And of course, these are the nature of the=20
> native labels one
> 	already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins.=20
> So why would
> 	one even contemplate not using these since they are=20
> already there?
> =09
> 	The VID label is slightly different in that one can=20
> consider it as a
> 	'route discriminator label' and a local extension to=20
> the SA or DA, ie it
> 	provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between=20
> nodal end
> 	points.
> =09
> 	The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above=20
> quantities as 'labels'
> 	does not change the fact that this is what they are. So=20
> I'm not clear
> 	what your real point is here.
> =09
> 	regards, Neil
> =09
> =09
>=20
>=20
> ________________________________
>=20
> Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge=20
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D47093/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collect
> ions/222> to see what's on, when.=20
>=20




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Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Fw: liaison to IETF (ccamp, MPLS, BFD, PWE3, and L3VPN)  on MFA Forum MPLS ICI
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FYI,

The MFA would like a response to their liaison by 18th October.

Adrian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Sinicrope (RL/TNT)" <david.sinicrope@ericsson.com>
To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>; "J. Rao Cherukuri" 
<cherukuri@juniper.net>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>; <townsley@cisco.com>; 
<jari.arkko@piuha.net>; <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>; "Bocci, Matthew 
(Matthew)" <matthew.bocci@alcatel-lucent.co.uk>; 
<nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com>; <dbrungard@att.com>; 
<rick.wilder@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ronald Bonica" <rbonica@juniper.net>; 
"Stewart Bryant (stbryant)" <stbryant@cisco.com>; <danny@arbor.net>; 
<dward@cisco.com>; <jhaas@pfrc.org>; "George Swallow (swallow)" 
<swallow@cisco.com>; "Loa Andersson" <loa@pi.se>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:28 PM
Subject: RE: liaison to IETF (ccamp, MPLS, BFD, PWE3, and L3VPN) on MFA 
Forum MPLS ICI


Hi Adrian,
Our next MFA Forum Technical Committee meeting is scheduled for October
22-26.  If at all possible, we would like to have comments and feedback
from the IETF by 10/18/2007 so that we could review and address them
during that meeting.  I realize that for the size of the document a
little over 5 weeks for review and comment is very short notice.

If not by 10/18/2007, then as soon as possible afterwards would help us.
We are aiming to complete the document by year end and would need to
have IETF feedback resolved and incorporated by the end of November at
the latest to meet that goal.

Please feel free to contact me with any other questions you may have.

Thank-you for your help and support.
Best Regards,
David

-----Original Message-----
From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 5:44 PM
To: J. Rao Cherukuri; David Sinicrope (RL/TNT)
Cc: Ross Callon; townsley@cisco.com; jari.arkko@piuha.net;
andrew.g.malis@verizon.com; Bocci, Matthew (Matthew);
nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com; dbrungard@att.com;
rick.wilder@alcatel-lucent.com; Ronald Bonica; Stewart Bryant
(stbryant); danny@arbor.net; dward@cisco.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; George
Swallow (swallow); Loa Andersson
Subject: Re: liaison to IETF (ccamp, MPLS, BFD, PWE3, and L3VPN) on MFA
Forum MPLS ICI

Rao, David,

> This document is in our first level ballot procedure.
> Please review and provide comments.

Please suggest an appropriate timescale for review feedback.

Thanks,
Adrian

----- Original Message -----
From: "J. Rao Cherukuri" <cherukuri@juniper.net>
To: <IAB@ietf.org>; <statements@ietf.org>; <adrian@olddog.co.uk>;
<dbrungard@att.com>; <rick.wilder@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ronald Bonica"
<rbonica@juniper.net>; "Stewart Bryant (stbryant)" <stbryant@cisco.com>;
<danny@arbor.net>; <dward@cisco.com>; <jhaas@pfrc.org>; "George Swallow
(swallow)" <swallow@cisco.com>; "Loa Andersson" <loa@pi.se>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>; <townsley@cisco.com>;
<jari.arkko@piuha.net>; "David Sinicrope (RL/TNT)"
<david.sinicrope@ericsson.com>; <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>; "Bocci,
Matthew (Matthew)" <matthew.bocci@alcatel-lucent.co.uk>; "J. Rao
Cherukuri"
<cherukuri@juniper.net>; <nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 1:28 AM
Subject: liaison to IETF (ccamp, MPLS, BFD, PWE3, and L3VPN) on MFA
Forum MPLS ICI


Dear All,



The MFA Forum is currently working on an MPLS Inter-Carrier Interconnect
(MPLS-ICI) specification to support IP VPNs, MPLS Pseudo Wires, Data
Trunks, and VoIP. This specification is being driven by the MFA Forum
service provider members.



The objective of this Technical Specification is to enable a set of MPLS
services, across administrative domains operated by different carriers.
The MPLS ICI is a bi-directional IP-MPLS logical link between an
Autonomous System Border Router (ASBR) in one service provider network
and an ASBR in another service provider network.



This document is targeted to equipment vendors to specify the necessary
ASBR requirements and to service providers to provide guidance on how to
use these capabilities. This document uses protocols developed in
appropriate standard bodies (e.g., IETF, ITU) where applicable.



This document is in our first level ballot procedure.



Please review and provide comments.



Thank you for your consideration of this matter.



Cordially,



David Sinicrope,

A&D Chair, MFA Forum



Rao Cherukuri



Chairman, MFA Forum Technical Committee







(draft MPLS ICI)











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From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>,
  neil.2.harrison@bt.com, adrian@olddog.co.uk, zali@cisco.com,
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Dimitri,

As Neil correctly pointed out, there is a great advantage in having connection source ID within label of every packet forwarded over the connection (and MPLS’s great deficiency is the lack of LSP source ID in the MPLS label). The source ID must be within the (data plane) label and not anywhere else, because the label constitutes Layer Information (LI) in ITU terms, and only LI is accessible to a server layer that claims transparency for its clients. On the other hand source MA in co Ethernet is not used for packet forwarding, hence it should not be signaled as a part of the (control plane) label, which is information that must be put by an upstream node into the packet header, so that the downstream node could recognize and properly forward the packet. 
   
  The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:
   
  a)     Data plane label is something determined only by IEEE, because it exists independently from any Control Plane: Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any Control Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as CCAMP is concerned, data plane label is untouchable;
  b)    Control plane label is always a subset of data plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it DMAC/VID? just VID?  nothing as in case of statically configured connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope? link-scope? Stuff like that.
   
  Cheers,
  Igor
  
 
 

> So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data 
> plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.

a label distribution protocol is a set of procedures by which one node
informs another of the label/FEC bindings it has made

if these labels are distributed via the gmpls control plane driving
population of the LIBs to which difference are u pointing out here ? so,
not sure to see the point (whatever the number of levels of indirection
between the fwd'ing plane encoding and control plane encoding u will
always fall back on the former, the label distribution protocol
exchanges a piece of information used by the nodes to perform their
forwarding decision) 

-d.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] 
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:21 PM
> To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com; PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; 
> adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; 
> Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> 
> Hi Neil,
>  
> I think there is a difference between a "data plane label" 
> which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server 
> layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of 
> information signaled between adjacent controllers for the 
> purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former is always 
> a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance, 
> connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part 
> of the data plane label because it identifies the source of 
> the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded 
> according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node, 
> for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the 
> downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC 
> DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID 
> cross-connects architecture).
>  
> So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data 
> plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
>  
> Cheers,
> Igor 
> 
> 
> neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:
> 
>  Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian 
>  
>  > > 
>  > > This is also something we would expect to describe within
>  > > CCAMP although 
>  > > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane 
>  > specification.
>  > 
>  > do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the 
>  > specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does 
>  > not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no 
>  > place to discuss any "label processing" and "label 
>  > distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or 
> link-local
>  > -
>  > 
>  > in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of 
>  > this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to 
>  > any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header 
>  > information field ?
>  > 
>  > thanks,
>  > -d.
>  
>  What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These 
> are all 'labels'.
>  
>  You also have to remember that the nature of the labels 
> required in a
>  traffic unit are determined by the type of the network 
> mode one is
>  dealing with.
>  
>  In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
>  'connection'. This implies specific architectural 
> requirements....but
>  the most significant, for this discussion at least, is 
> that a connection
>  must have a single source. What this means is that one 
> does not have to
>  incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic 
> unit....under defect-free
>  conditions it is redundant information as the 
> connection itself provides
>  the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode 
> which does not
>  have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit 
> is essential}
>  
>  Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that 
> respect the
>  requirements of a connection have only focussed on 
> incorporating a DA
>  (forwarding) label. Further, these forwarding labels 
> only need to be
>  distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different 
> client layer
>  (link-connection) instances within a server layer 
> (network connection)
>  resource partition. However, there are advantages from 
> having both a SA
>  and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network 
> unique and not
>  just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the 
> inherent robustness
>  under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM 
> flow) is one of
>  these. And of course, these are the nature of the 
> native labels one
>  already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins. 
> So why would
>  one even contemplate not using these since they are 
> already there?
>  
>  The VID label is slightly different in that one can 
> consider it as a
>  'route discriminator label' and a local extension to 
> the SA or DA, ie it
>  provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between 
> nodal end
>  points.
>  
>  The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above 
> quantities as 'labels'
>  does not change the fact that this is what they are. So 
> I'm not clear
>  what your real point is here.
>  
>  regards, Neil
>  
>  
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge 
> > ions/222> to see what's on, when. 
> 



       
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<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><div class="MsoNormal">Dimitri,<br></div><div class="MsoNormal">As Neil correctly pointed out, there is a great advantage in having connection source ID within label of every packet forwarded over the connection (and MPLS’s great deficiency is the lack of LSP source ID in the MPLS label). The source ID must be within the (data plane) label and not anywhere else, because the label constitutes Layer Information (LI) in ITU terms, and only LI is accessible to a server layer that claims transparency for its clients. On the other hand source MA in co Ethernet is not used for packet forwarding, hence it should not be signaled as a part of the (control plane) label, which is information that must be put by an upstream node into the packet header, so that the downstream node could recognize and properly forward the packet. </div>  <div
 class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoNormal">The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:</div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="">a)<span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span><!--[endif]-->Data plane label is something determined only by IEEE, because it exists independently from any Control Plane: Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any Control Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as CCAMP is concerned, data plane label is untouchable;</div>  <div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="">b)<span style="font-family: &quot;Times New
 Roman&quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span><!--[endif]-->Control plane label is always a subset of data plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it DMAC/VID? just VID? <span style="">&nbsp;</span>nothing as in case of statically configured connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope? link-scope? Stuff like that.</div>  <div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.25in;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoNormal">Cheers,</div>  <div class="MsoNormal">Igor</div>  <span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;"><br style=""> <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br style=""> <!--[endif]--></span><br><br>&gt; So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data <br>&gt; plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.<br><br>a label distribution protocol is a set of
 procedures by which one node<br>informs another of the label/FEC bindings it has made<br><br>if these labels are distributed via the gmpls control plane driving<br>population of the LIBs to which difference are u pointing out here ? so,<br>not sure to see the point (whatever the number of levels of indirection<br>between the fwd'ing plane encoding and control plane encoding u will<br>always fall back on the former, the label distribution protocol<br>exchanges a piece of information used by the nodes to perform their<br>forwarding decision) <br><br>-d.<br><br>&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt; From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <br>&gt; Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:21 PM<br>&gt; To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com; PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; <br>&gt; adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; <br>&gt; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org<br>&gt; Cc: rcallon@juniper.net<br>&gt; Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Hi
 Neil,<br>&gt;  <br>&gt; I think there is a difference between a "data plane label" <br>&gt; which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server <br>&gt; layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of <br>&gt; information signaled between adjacent controllers for the <br>&gt; purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former is always <br>&gt; a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance, <br>&gt; connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part <br>&gt; of the data plane label because it identifies the source of <br>&gt; the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded <br>&gt; according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node, <br>&gt; for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the <br>&gt; downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC <br>&gt; DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID <br>&gt; cross-connects architecture).<br>&gt;  <br>&gt; So, IMO IEEE should be responsible
 for the definition of data <br>&gt; plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.<br>&gt;  <br>&gt; Cheers,<br>&gt; Igor <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt;  Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian <br>&gt;  <br>&gt;  &gt; &gt; <br>&gt;  &gt; &gt; This is also something we would expect to describe within<br>&gt;  &gt; &gt; CCAMP although <br>&gt;  &gt; &gt; "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane <br>&gt;  &gt; specification.<br>&gt;  &gt; <br>&gt;  &gt; do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the <br>&gt;  &gt; specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does <br>&gt;  &gt; not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no <br>&gt;  &gt; place to discuss any "label processing" and "label <br>&gt;  &gt; distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or <br>&gt; link-local<br>&gt;  &gt; -<br>&gt;  &gt; <br>&gt;  &gt; in that case, isn't the .1Q specification
 outside scope of <br>&gt;  &gt; this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to <br>&gt;  &gt; any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header <br>&gt;  &gt; information field ?<br>&gt;  &gt; <br>&gt;  &gt; thanks,<br>&gt;  &gt; -d.<br>&gt;  <br>&gt;  What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These <br>&gt; are all 'labels'.<br>&gt;  <br>&gt;  You also have to remember that the nature of the labels <br>&gt; required in a<br>&gt;  traffic unit are determined by the type of the network <br>&gt; mode one is<br>&gt;  dealing with.<br>&gt;  <br>&gt;  In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a<br>&gt;  'connection'. This implies specific architectural <br>&gt; requirements....but<br>&gt;  the most significant, for this discussion at least, is <br>&gt; that a connection<br>&gt;  must have a single source. What this means is that one <br>&gt; does not have to<br>&gt;  incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic <br>&gt; unit....under
 defect-free<br>&gt;  conditions it is redundant information as the <br>&gt; connection itself provides<br>&gt;  the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode <br>&gt; which does not<br>&gt;  have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit <br>&gt; is essential}<br>&gt;  <br>&gt;  Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that <br>&gt; respect the<br>&gt;  requirements of a connection have only focussed on <br>&gt; incorporating a DA<br>&gt;  (forwarding) label. Further, these forwarding labels <br>&gt; only need to be<br>&gt;  distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different <br>&gt; client layer<br>&gt;  (link-connection) instances within a server layer <br>&gt; (network connection)<br>&gt;  resource partition. However, there are advantages from <br>&gt; having both a SA<br>&gt;  and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network <br>&gt; unique and not<br>&gt;  just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the <br>&gt; inherent
 robustness<br>&gt;  under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM <br>&gt; flow) is one of<br>&gt;  these. And of course, these are the nature of the <br>&gt; native labels one<br>&gt;  already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins. <br>&gt; So why would<br>&gt;  one even contemplate not using these since they are <br>&gt; already there?<br>&gt;  <br>&gt;  The VID label is slightly different in that one can <br>&gt; consider it as a<br>&gt;  'route discriminator label' and a local extension to <br>&gt; the SA or DA, ie it<br>&gt;  provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between <br>&gt; nodal end<br>&gt;  points.<br>&gt;  <br>&gt;  The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above <br>&gt; quantities as 'labels'<br>&gt;  does not change the fact that this is what they are. So <br>&gt; I'm not clear<br>&gt;  what your real point is here.<br>&gt;  <br>&gt;  regards, Neil<br>&gt;  <br>&gt;  <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt;
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From: "bettylu Forma" <Forma@luthier-nice.com>
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Thanks Igor...just want to slightly correct/amend something
below...please see in-line:

-----Original Message-----
From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20
Sent: 08 September 2007 14:36
To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R; adrian@olddog.co.uk;
zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;
gels@rtg.ietf.org
Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List



Dimitri,

As Neil correctly pointed out, there is a great advantage in having
connection source ID within label of every packet forwarded over the
connection (and MPLS's great deficiency is the lack of LSP source ID in
the MPLS label).=20
NH=3D> Yes, it is true that having a SA label in each/every traffic unit
is an important advantage...and so is having a DA address label (for
forwarding) that does not have to be swapped.  As I pointed out before,
one can take some short-cuts and traditional co-ps mode technologies
have (perhaps unconsciously?) done so, viz:
 -    if one respects the requirements of a connection then you can omit
the SA label from the DP traffic units....as under defect-free
conditions it is redundant information.  However, this means OAM
(essentially a CV flow that contains the SA label) should (but really
ought to be must for customer integrity/security reasons) be run on ALL
connections (irrespective of their importance) as one cannot predict a
priori where misconnectivity defects will occur.  But this is
significantly operationally inferior to having the SA information
carried in the traffic unit as this makes the network inherently robust
to such defects without any OAM at all.
-    wrt forwarding one only needs to resolve/identify (ie label) the
number of client instances that a given server layer resource partition
can support per client link connection.....noting that said labels are
indeed indirection proxies for the true DA anyway.  However, this is
also operationally inferior to using a true connection DA for forwarding
that is not swapped.
=20
Now if you don't respect the requirements of a connection, and both LDP
and PHP in MPLS don't as they create mp2p constructs, then you have to
appeal to a higher layer entity to effect a demerging function, ie
essentially recover the lost SA information.  If the client is a cl-ps
mode technology with non-overlapping addresses this can do the job
directly.  If this is not the case you have to add the lost information
some other way....and in MPLS this is done by adding a further 1-hop LSP
where the label here now takes on the semantic of SA.  But this is
actually not a very sensible approach because one of the key operational
things we need in any layer network is consistent Characteristic
Information (ie consistent traffic unit structure, consistent traffic
unit functional field semantics and consistent OAM).  Why is this
important?  Well, if one has misconnectivity defects present it is
important that the trail (co mode) or flow (cl mode) termination points
handles the traffic units and OAM in a consistent and predictable way.
MPLS does not have consistent CI....indeed I can list at least 4
different semantics of a label and more will emerge as folks consider
new applications like p2mp constructs.
=20
There are many other consequences of merging constructs, but I don't
want to get into these here.
=20
regards, Neil
=20
  The source ID must be within the (data plane) label and not anywhere
else, because the label constitutes Layer Information (LI) in ITU terms,
and only LI is accessible to a server layer that claims transparency for
its clients. On the other hand source MA in co Ethernet is not used for
packet forwarding, hence it should not be signaled as a part of the
(control plane) label, which is information that must be put by an
upstream node into the packet header, so that the downstream node could
recognize and properly forward the packet.=20
The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:
<!--[if !supportLists]-->a)     <!--[endif]-->Data plane label is
something determined only by IEEE, because it exists independently from
any Control Plane: Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS
without any Control Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as
CCAMP is concerned, data plane label is untouchable;
<!--[if !supportLists]-->b)    <!--[endif]-->Control plane label is
always a subset of data plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP
discussions: is it DMAC/VID? just VID?  nothing as in case of statically
configured connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope? link-scope?
Stuff like that.
Cheers,
Igor

<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]-->

> So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data=20
> plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.

a label distribution protocol is a set of procedures by which one node
informs another of the label/FEC bindings it has made

if these labels are distributed via the gmpls control plane driving
population of the LIBs to which difference are u pointing out here ? so,
not sure to see the point (whatever the number of levels of indirection
between the fwd'ing plane encoding and control plane encoding u will
always fall back on the former, the label distribution protocol
exchanges a piece of information used by the nodes to perform their
forwarding decision)=20

-d.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:21 PM
> To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com; PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri;=20
> adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;=20
> Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> Hi Neil,
>=20
> I think there is a difference between a "data plane label"=20
> which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server=20
> layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of=20
> information signaled between adjacent controllers for the=20
> purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former is always=20
> a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance,=20
> connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part=20
> of the data plane label because it identifies the source of=20
> the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded=20
> according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node,=20
> for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the=20
> downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC=20
> DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID=20
> cross-connects architecture).
>=20
> So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data=20
> plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Igor=20
>=20
>=20
> neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:
>=20
> Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian=20
>=20
> > >=20
> > > This is also something we would expect to describe within
> > > CCAMP although=20
> > > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane=20
> > specification.
> >=20
> > do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the=20
> > specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does=20
> > not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no=20
> > place to discuss any "label processing" and "label=20
> > distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or=20
> link-local
> > -
> >=20
> > in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of=20
> > this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to=20
> > any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header=20
> > information field ?
> >=20
> > thanks,
> > -d.
>=20
> What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These=20
> are all 'labels'.
>=20
> You also have to remember that the nature of the labels=20
> required in a
> traffic unit are determined by the type of the network=20
> mode one is
> dealing with.
>=20
> In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
> 'connection'. This implies specific architectural=20
> requirements....but
> the most significant, for this discussion at least, is=20
> that a connection
> must have a single source. What this means is that one=20
> does not have to
> incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic=20
> unit....under defect-free
> conditions it is redundant information as the=20
> connection itself provides
> the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode=20
> which does not
> have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit=20
> is essential}
>=20
> Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that=20
> respect the
> requirements of a connection have only focussed on=20
> incorporating a DA
> (forwarding) label. Further, these forwarding labels=20
> only need to be
> distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different=20
> client layer
> (link-connection) instances within a server layer=20
> (network connection)
> resource partition. However, there are advantages from=20
> having both a SA
> and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network=20
> unique and not
> just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the=20
> inherent robustness
> under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM=20
> flow) is one of
> these. And of course, these are the nature of the=20
> native labels one
> already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins.=20
> So why would
> one even contemplate not using these since they are=20
> already there?
>=20
> The VID label is slightly different in that one can=20
> consider it as a
> 'route discriminator label' and a local extension to=20
> the SA or DA, ie it
> provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between=20
> nodal end
> points.
>=20
> The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above=20
> quantities as 'labels'
> does not change the fact that this is what they are. So=20
> I'm not clear
> what your real point is here.
>=20
> regards, Neil
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ________________________________
>=20
> Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge=20
> > ions/222> to see what's on, when.=20
>=20






  _____ =20

Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D48220/*http://tv.yahoo.com/> tonight's top
picks on Yahoo! TV.=20


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<DIV><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2>Thanks Igor...just want to slightly correct/amend something=20
below...please see in-line:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #800000 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Igor =
Bryskin=20
  [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> 08 September 2007=20
  14:36<BR><B>To:</B> PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R;=20
  adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com;=20
  ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  rcallon@juniper.net<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Closing the GELS Mailing=20
  List<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dreplbq=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal>Dimitri,<BR></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal>As Neil correctly pointed out, there is a =
great=20
    advantage in having connection source ID within label of every =
packet=20
    forwarded over the connection (and MPLS&#8217;s great deficiency is =
the lack of=20
    LSP source ID in the MPLS label).<SPAN =
class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 size=3D2>NH=3D&gt; Yes, it is =
true that=20
    having a SA label in each/every traffic unit</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 size=3D2>is an important =
advantage...and so=20
    is having a DA address label (for forwarding) that does not have to =
be=20
    swapped.&nbsp; As I pointed out before, one can&nbsp;take some =
short-cuts=20
    and traditional co-ps mode technologies have (perhaps =
unconsciously?) done=20
    so, viz:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007></SPAN><SPAN =

    class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
    size=3D2>&nbsp;-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;if one respects the =
requirements of a=20
    connection then you can omit the SA label from the DP traffic =
units....as=20
    under defect-free conditions it is redundant information.&nbsp; =
However,=20
    this means OAM (essentially a CV flow that contains the SA label) =
should=20
    (but really ought to be must for customer integrity/security =
reasons) be run=20
    on ALL connections (irrespective of their importance) as one cannot =
predict=20
    a priori where misconnectivity defects will occur.&nbsp; But this is =

    significantly operationally inferior to having the SA information =
carried in=20
    the traffic unit as this makes the network inherently robust to such =
defects=20
    without any OAM at all.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2>-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;wrt=20
    forwarding one only needs to resolve/identify (ie label) the number =
of=20
    client instances that a given server layer resource partition can =
support=20
    per client link connection.....noting that said labels are indeed=20
    indirection proxies for the true DA anyway.&nbsp; However, this is =
also=20
    operationally inferior to&nbsp;using a true connection DA for =
forwarding=20
    that is not swapped.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 size=3D2>Now if you don't =
respect the=20
    requirements of a connection, and both LDP and PHP in MPLS don't as =
they=20
    create mp2p constructs, then you have to appeal to a higher layer =
entity to=20
    effect a demerging function, ie essentially recover the lost SA=20
    information.&nbsp; If the client is a cl-ps mode technology with=20
    non-overlapping addresses this can do the job directly.&nbsp; If =
this is not=20
    the case you have to add the lost information some other way....and =
in MPLS=20
    this is done by adding a further 1-hop LSP where the label here now =
takes on=20
    the semantic of SA.&nbsp; But this is actually not a very sensible =
approach=20
    because one of the key operational things we need in any layer =
network is=20
    consistent Characteristic Information (ie consistent traffic unit =
structure,=20
    consistent traffic unit functional field semantics and consistent=20
    OAM).&nbsp; Why is this important?&nbsp; Well, if one has =
misconnectivity=20
    defects present it is important that the trail (co mode) or flow (cl =
mode)=20
    termination points handles the traffic units and OAM in a consistent =
and=20
    predictable way.&nbsp; MPLS does not have consistent CI....indeed I =
can list=20
    at least 4 different semantics of a label and more will emerge as =
folks=20
    consider new applications like p2mp constructs.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 size=3D2>There are many other =
consequences=20
    of merging constructs, but I don't want to get into these=20
    here.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 size=3D2>regards, =
Neil</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN =
class=3D950083913-08092007>&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>The=20
    source ID must be within the (data plane) label and not anywhere =
else,=20
    because the label constitutes Layer Information (LI) in ITU terms, =
and only=20
    LI is accessible to a server layer that claims transparency for its =
clients.=20
    On the other hand source MA in co Ethernet is not used for packet=20
    forwarding, hence it should not be signaled as a part of the =
(control plane)=20
    label, which is information that must be put by an upstream node =
into the=20
    packet header, so that the downstream node could recognize and =
properly=20
    forward the packet. </DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><O:P></O:P></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal>The conclusions in the context of co =
Ethernet:</DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><O:P></O:P></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal=20
    style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in">&lt;!--[if=20
    !supportLists]--&gt;<SPAN>a)<SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'; font-size-adjust: none; =
font-stretch: normal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    </SPAN></SPAN>&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;Data plane label is something =
determined=20
    only by IEEE, because it exists independently from any Control =
Plane:=20
    Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any Control =
Plane=20
    (no control plane labels at all). As far as CCAMP is concerned, data =
plane=20
    label is untouchable;</DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal=20
    style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in">&lt;!--[if=20
    !supportLists]--&gt;<SPAN>b)<SPAN style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New
     Roman'; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: =
normal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    </SPAN></SPAN>&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;Control plane label is always a =
subset of=20
    data plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it =
DMAC/VID?=20
    just VID? <SPAN>&nbsp;</SPAN>nothing as in case of statically =
configured=20
    connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope? link-scope? Stuff like =

    that.</DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: =
0.25in"><O:P></O:P></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal>Cheers,</DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal>Igor</DIV><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman'"><BR>&lt;!--[if=20
    =
!supportLineBreakNewLine]--&gt;<BR>&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;</SPAN><BR><BR>&gt=
;=20
    So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data =
<BR>&gt; plane=20
    labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.<BR><BR>a label =
distribution=20
    protocol is a set of procedures by which one node<BR>informs another =
of the=20
    label/FEC bindings it has made<BR><BR>if these labels are =
distributed via=20
    the gmpls control plane driving<BR>population of the LIBs to which=20
    difference are u pointing out here ? so,<BR>not sure to see the =
point=20
    (whatever the number of levels of indirection<BR>between the fwd'ing =
plane=20
    encoding and control plane encoding u will<BR>always fall back on =
the=20
    former, the label distribution protocol<BR>exchanges a piece of =
information=20
    used by the nodes to perform their<BR>forwarding decision)=20
    <BR><BR>-d.<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: =
Igor=20
    Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <BR>&gt; Sent: Friday, =
September 07,=20
    2007 9:21 PM<BR>&gt; To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com; PAPADIMITRIOU =
Dimitri;=20
    <BR>&gt; adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; <BR>&gt;=20
    Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; =
gels@rtg.ietf.org<BR>&gt;=20
    Cc: rcallon@juniper.net<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Closing the GELS =
Mailing=20
    List<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Hi Neil,<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I think there is a=20
    difference between a "data plane label" <BR>&gt; which is a Layer=20
    Information (LI) used by a given server <BR>&gt; layer and a =
"control plane=20
    label", which is a piece of <BR>&gt; information signaled between =
adjacent=20
    controllers for the <BR>&gt; purpose of connection provisioning. IMO =
the=20
    former is always <BR>&gt; a superset of the latter. Let's take, for=20
    instance, <BR>&gt; connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very =
important=20
    part <BR>&gt; of the data plane label because it identifies the =
source of=20
    <BR>&gt; the connection. However, the connection frames are =
forwarded=20
    <BR>&gt; according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node, =

    <BR>&gt; for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the =
<BR>&gt;=20
    downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC <BR>&gt; =
DA/VID=20
    (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID <BR>&gt; =
cross-connects=20
    architecture).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; So, IMO IEEE should be responsible =
for the=20
    definition of data <BR>&gt; plane labels, while CCAMP for control =
plane=20
    labels.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Cheers,<BR>&gt; Igor <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; =
<BR>&gt;=20
    neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Dimitri wrote 07 =
September=20
    2007 16:36 in response to Adrian <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
    &gt; This is also something we would expect to describe =
within<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
    &gt; CCAMP although <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; "what is a label" would come =
to us=20
    from the data plane <BR>&gt; &gt; specification.<BR>&gt; &gt; =
<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
    do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the <BR>&gt; &gt;=20
    specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does <BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
    not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no <BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
    place to discuss any "label processing" and "label <BR>&gt; &gt;=20
    distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or <BR>&gt;=20
    link-local<BR>&gt; &gt; -<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; in that case, =
isn't the=20
    .1Q specification outside scope of <BR>&gt; &gt; this effort since =
not=20
    referring - as of today at least - to <BR>&gt; &gt; any "label" =
semantic as=20
    part of the Ethernet frame header <BR>&gt; &gt; information field =
?<BR>&gt;=20
    &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; thanks,<BR>&gt; &gt; -d.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; What do =
you=20
    think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These <BR>&gt; are all =
'labels'.<BR>&gt;=20
    <BR>&gt; You also have to remember that the nature of the labels =
<BR>&gt;=20
    required in a<BR>&gt; traffic unit are determined by the type of the =
network=20
    <BR>&gt; mode one is<BR>&gt; dealing with.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; In the =
co-cs and=20
    co-ps modes we have a construction known as a<BR>&gt; 'connection'. =
This=20
    implies specific architectural <BR>&gt; requirements....but<BR>&gt; =
the most=20
    significant, for this discussion at least, is <BR>&gt; that a=20
    connection<BR>&gt; must have a single source. What this means is =
that one=20
    <BR>&gt; does not have to<BR>&gt; incorporate a SA label in a co =
mode=20
    traffic <BR>&gt; unit....under defect-free<BR>&gt; conditions it is=20
    redundant information as the <BR>&gt; connection itself =
provides<BR>&gt; the=20
    source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode <BR>&gt; which =
does=20
    not<BR>&gt; have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit =
<BR>&gt;=20
    is essential}<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode =
technologies to=20
    date that <BR>&gt; respect the<BR>&gt; requirements of a connection =
have=20
    only focussed on <BR>&gt; incorporating a DA<BR>&gt; (forwarding) =
label.=20
    Further, these forwarding labels <BR>&gt; only need to be<BR>&gt; =
distinct=20
    in resolving some number (N say) of different <BR>&gt; client =
layer<BR>&gt;=20
    (link-connection) instances within a server layer <BR>&gt; (network=20
    connection)<BR>&gt; resource partition. However, there are =
advantages from=20
    <BR>&gt; having both a SA<BR>&gt; and DA label in a co-ps traffic =
unit that=20
    are network <BR>&gt; unique and not<BR>&gt; just link-connection =
unique (ie=20
    not swapped)....the <BR>&gt; inherent robustness<BR>&gt; under=20
    misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM <BR>&gt; flow) is =
one=20
    of<BR>&gt; these. And of course, these are the nature of the =
<BR>&gt; native=20
    labels one<BR>&gt; already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode =
origins.=20
    <BR>&gt; So why would<BR>&gt; one even contemplate not using these =
since=20
    they are <BR>&gt; already there?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The VID label is =
slightly=20
    different in that one can <BR>&gt; consider it as a<BR>&gt; 'route=20
    discriminator label' and a local extension to <BR>&gt; the SA or DA, =
ie=20
    it<BR>&gt; provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between =
<BR>&gt;=20
    nodal end<BR>&gt; points.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The mere fact IEEE may =
not refer=20
    to the above <BR>&gt; quantities as 'labels'<BR>&gt; does not change =
the=20
    fact that this is what they are. So <BR>&gt; I'm not clear<BR>&gt; =
what your=20
    real point is here.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; regards, Neil<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; =
<BR>&gt;=20
    <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; ________________________________<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; =
Sick=20
    sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge <BR>&gt; =
<HTTP:=20
    evt=3D"47093/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collect<br" =
us.rd.yahoo.com=3D"">&gt;=20
    ions/222&gt; to see what's on, when. <BR>&gt;=20
<BR><BR></HTTP:></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
  <P>
  <HR SIZE=3D1>
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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 18:38:22 +0200
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From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>
To: "Igor Bryskin" <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, <neil.2.harrison@bt.com>,
        <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <zali@cisco.com>, <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>,
        <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
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igor =20

> 	The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:
> 	=20
> 	a)     Data plane label is something determined only by=20
> IEEE, because it exists independently from any Control Plane:
> Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any=20
> Control Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as=20
> CCAMP is concerned, data plane label is untouchable;


IEEE 802.1 does not deal with the data plane in that sense. it defines
"control" of forwarding components  it is an issue we need to consider.=20

we are not taking a data plane specification in its basic sense for
which CCAMP adds a control plane. to the modes 802.1 currently considers
MSTP (domain-wide bridging through spanning tree), SPB (shortest-path
tree bridging) and PBB-TE (for which we have no outline so far) result
in specification detailing operations of forwarding components.=20

if i take the latter its is intended to "support provisioning systems
that explicitly select traffic engineered paths within Provider Backbone
Bridge Networks (P802.1ah) by allowing a network operator to disable
unknown destination address forwarding and source address learning for
administratively selected VLAN Identifiers, while allowing other network
control protocols to dynamically determine active topologies for other
services." ... far from being a data plane specification in its base
sense.


> 	b)    Control plane label is always a subset of data=20
> plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it=20
> DMAC/VID? just VID?  nothing as in case of statically=20
> configured connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope?=20
> link-scope? Stuff like that.


i will use examples to make this clearer to allow something along the
PBB-TE line work is ongoing to define states which force the port state
being learning off and forwarding on (for all VID allocated to PBB-TE
but not to MSTP), disable broadcast/unknown unicast while allowing
filtering of unicast only (both are control of MAC relay operations),
etc. -> all these control-driven operation fall outside CCAMP scope (at
least as far as my understanding goes)


-> the question is not "IEEE defines the data plane and IETF the control
plane"


=3D> the question is which control components can CCAMP consider that
complements amended 802.1ah bridge control & operation: data path
setup/provisioning mechanism (explicit source-initiated routing) ?
traffic engineering which first requires to see which TE model IEEE will
consider ? others ? =20



-d.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20
> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 3:36 PM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; neil.2.harrison@bt.com;=20
> adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;=20
> Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> 	Dimitri,
> =09
> 	As Neil correctly pointed out, there is a great=20
> advantage in having connection source ID within label of=20
> every packet forwarded over the connection (and MPLS's great=20
> deficiency is the lack of LSP source ID in the MPLS label).=20
> The source ID must be within the (data plane) label and not=20
> anywhere else, because the label constitutes Layer=20
> Information (LI) in ITU terms, and only LI is accessible to a=20
> server layer that claims transparency for its clients. On the=20
> other hand source MA in co Ethernet is not used for packet=20
> forwarding, hence it should not be signaled as a part of the=20
> (control plane) label, which is information that must be put=20
> by an upstream node into the packet header, so that the=20
> downstream node could recognize and properly forward the packet.=20
> 	=20
> 	The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:
> 	=20
> 	a)     Data plane label is something determined only by=20
> IEEE, because it exists independently from any Control Plane:=20
> Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any=20
> Control Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as=20
> CCAMP is concerned, data plane label is untouchable;
> 	b)    Control plane label is always a subset of data=20
> plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it=20
> DMAC/VID? just VID?  nothing as in case of statically=20
> configured connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope?=20
> link-scope? Stuff like that.
> 	=20
> 	Cheers,
> 	Igor
> =09
> =09
> =09
> =09
> 	> So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data=20
> 	> plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
> =09
> 	a label distribution protocol is a set of procedures by=20
> which one node
> 	informs another of the label/FEC bindings it has made
> =09
> 	if these labels are distributed via the gmpls control=20
> plane driving
> 	population of the LIBs to which difference are u=20
> pointing out here ? so,
> 	not sure to see the point (whatever the number of=20
> levels of indirection
> 	between the fwd'ing plane encoding and control plane=20
> encoding u will
> 	always fall back on the former, the label distribution protocol
> 	exchanges a piece of information used by the nodes to=20
> perform their
> 	forwarding decision)=20
> =09
> 	-d.
> =09
> 	> -----Original Message-----
> 	> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20
> 	> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:21 PM
> 	> To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com; PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri;=20
> 	> adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;=20
> 	> Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;=20
> gels@rtg.ietf.org
> 	> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> 	> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> 	>=20
> 	> Hi Neil,
> 	>=20
> 	> I think there is a difference between a "data plane label"=20
> 	> which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server=20
> 	> layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of=20
> 	> information signaled between adjacent controllers for the=20
> 	> purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former is always=20
> 	> a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance,=20
> 	> connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part=20
> 	> of the data plane label because it identifies the source of=20
> 	> the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded=20
> 	> according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node,=20
> 	> for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the=20
> 	> downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC=20
> 	> DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID=20
> 	> cross-connects architecture).
> 	>=20
> 	> So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data=20
> 	> plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
> 	>=20
> 	> Cheers,
> 	> Igor=20
> 	>=20
> 	>=20
> 	> neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:
> 	>=20
> 	> Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian=20
> 	>=20
> 	> > >=20
> 	> > > This is also something we would expect to describe within
> 	> > > CCAMP although=20
> 	> > > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane=20
> 	> > specification.
> 	> >=20
> 	> > do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the=20
> 	> > specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does=20
> 	> > not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no=20
> 	> > place to discuss any "label processing" and "label=20
> 	> > distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or=20
> 	> link-local
> 	> > -
> 	> >=20
> 	> > in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of=20
> 	> > this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to=20
> 	> > any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header=20
> 	> > information field ?
> 	> >=20
> 	> > thanks,
> 	> > -d.
> 	>=20
> 	> What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These=20
> 	> are all 'labels'.
> 	>=20
> 	> You also have to remember that the nature of the labels=20
> 	> required in a
> 	> traffic unit are determined by the type of the network=20
> 	> mode one is
> 	> dealing with.
> 	>=20
> 	> In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
> 	> 'connection'. This implies specific architectural=20
> 	> requirements....but
> 	> the most significant, for this discussion at least, is=20
> 	> that a connection
> 	> must have a single source. What this means is that one=20
> 	> does not have to
> 	> incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic=20
> 	> unit....under defect-free
> 	> conditions it is redundant information as the=20
> 	> connection itself provides
> 	> the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode=20
> 	> which does not
> 	> have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit=20
> 	> is essential}
> 	>=20
> 	> Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that=20
> 	> respect the
> 	> requirements of a connection have only focussed on=20
> 	> incorporating a DA
> 	> (forwarding) label. Further, these forwarding labels=20
> 	> only need to be
> 	> distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different=20
> 	> client layer
> 	> (link-connection) instances within a server layer=20
> 	> (network connection)
> 	> resource partition. However, there are advantages from=20
> 	> having both a SA
> 	> and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network=20
> 	> unique and not
> 	> just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the=20
> 	> inherent robustness
> 	> under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM=20
> 	> flow) is one of
> 	> these. And of course, these are the nature of the=20
> 	> native labels one
> 	> already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins.=20
> 	> So why would
> 	> one even contemplate not using these since they are=20
> 	> already there?
> 	>=20
> 	> The VID label is slightly different in that one can=20
> 	> consider it as a
> 	> 'route discriminator label' and a local extension to=20
> 	> the SA or DA, ie it
> 	> provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between=20
> 	> nodal end
> 	> points.
> 	>=20
> 	> The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above=20
> 	> quantities as 'labels'
> 	> does not change the fact that this is what they are. So=20
> 	> I'm not clear
> 	> what your real point is here.
> 	>=20
> 	> regards, Neil
> 	>=20
> 	>=20
> 	>=20
> 	>=20
> 	> ________________________________
> 	>=20
> 	> Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge=20
> 	> > ions/222> to see what's on, when.=20
> 	>=20
> =09
> =09
>=20
>=20
> ________________________________
>=20
> Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top=20
> picks=20
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D48220/*http://tv.yahoo.com/>  on=20
> Yahoo! TV.=20
>=20




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From: Lori Pope <mjrcolors@dimondbros.com>
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Subject: you to christian
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 22:23:04 +0200
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field of view is fundamentally limited, and these displays
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 of all the possibilities, and easier to forget that

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From Amanda-pillai@telerecording.co.uk Sat Sep 08 23:01:40 2007
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http://hoodoski.com/
Yo pillai
wishing you had a bigger one-eyed wonder? and do something about it

Alistair jakucinskas
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Yo pillai</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>wishing you had a bigger one-eyed wonder? and =
do=20
something about it</FONT></DIV>
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From ercan_korumer@racsoftware.com Sun Sep 09 01:04:18 2007
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Wassup ccamp-archive
Say hello to my little friend, well big friend now

Kai Scheper
http://www.hrdmin.com/




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hello Rickey

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Rufus



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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sun Sep 09 11:24:55 2007
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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>,
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  Dimitri,
   
  Please, see in line.
   
  Igor
 
 PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be> wrote:
  igor 
 
 > The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:
 > 
 > a) Data plane label is something determined only by 
 > IEEE, because it exists independently from any Control Plane:
 > Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any 
 > Control Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as 
 > CCAMP is concerned, data plane label is untouchable;
 
 
 IEEE 802.1 does not deal with the data plane in that sense. it defines
 "control" of forwarding components it is an issue we need to consider. 
 
 we are not taking a data plane specification in its basic sense for
 which CCAMP adds a control plane.
   
  IB>>  I totally disagree. That is exactly what we should do in CCAMP and my understanding is that this is what operators expect us to do.
   
   to the modes 802.1 currently considers
 MSTP (domain-wide bridging through spanning tree), SPB (shortest-path
 tree bridging) and PBB-TE (for which we have no outline so far) result
 in specification detailing operations of forwarding components. 
 
 if i take the latter its is intended to "support provisioning systems
 that explicitly select traffic engineered paths within Provider Backbone
 Bridge Networks (P802.1ah) by allowing a network operator to disable
 unknown destination address forwarding and source address learning for
 administratively selected VLAN Identifiers, while allowing other network
 control protocols to dynamically determine active topologies for other
 services." ... far from being a data plane specification in its base
 sense.
 
 
 > b) Control plane label is always a subset of data 
 > plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it 
 > DMAC/VID? just VID? nothing as in case of statically 
 > configured connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope? 
 > link-scope? Stuff like that.
 
 
 i will use examples to make this clearer to allow something along the
 PBB-TE line work is ongoing to define states which force the port state
 being learning off and forwarding on (for all VID allocated to PBB-TE
 but not to MSTP), disable broadcast/unknown unicast while allowing
 filtering of unicast only (both are control of MAC relay operations),
 etc. -> all these control-driven operation fall outside CCAMP scope (at
 least as far as my understanding goes)
   
  IB>> Again, this is exactly opposite to my understanding. IMO we should consider only connection-oriented Ethernet, such as 802.1ay for PBB-TE or, say, 802.1xyz for VID cross-connected Ethernet (only after such data plane is endorsed by IEEE). We should not consider any connectionless Ethernet (802.1ad,ah, etc.).: GMPLS so far  is/was all about connections and nothing else: to correct deficiencies of connectionless Ethernet native control plane ((R,M)STPs) in CCAMP IMO is as inappropriate as correcting deficiencies of MPLS in ITU (I mean designing T-MPLS)
   
  Cheers,
  Igor  
 
 
 -> the question is not "IEEE defines the data plane and IETF the control
 plane"
 
 
 => the question is which control components can CCAMP consider that
 complements amended 802.1ah bridge control & operation: data path
 setup/provisioning mechanism (explicit source-initiated routing) ?
 traffic engineering which first requires to see which TE model IEEE will
 consider ? others ? 
 
 
 
 -d.
 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] 
 > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 3:36 PM
 > To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; neil.2.harrison@bt.com; 
 > adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; 
 > Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
 > Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
 > Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
 > 
 > Dimitri,
 > 
 > As Neil correctly pointed out, there is a great 
 > advantage in having connection source ID within label of 
 > every packet forwarded over the connection (and MPLS's great 
 > deficiency is the lack of LSP source ID in the MPLS label). 
 > The source ID must be within the (data plane) label and not 
 > anywhere else, because the label constitutes Layer 
 > Information (LI) in ITU terms, and only LI is accessible to a 
 > server layer that claims transparency for its clients. On the 
 > other hand source MA in co Ethernet is not used for packet 
 > forwarding, hence it should not be signaled as a part of the 
 > (control plane) label, which is information that must be put 
 > by an upstream node into the packet header, so that the 
 > downstream node could recognize and properly forward the packet. 
 > 
 > The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:
 > 
 > a) Data plane label is something determined only by 
 > IEEE, because it exists independently from any Control Plane: 
 > Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any 
 > Control Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as 
 > CCAMP is concerned, data plane label is untouchable;
 > b) Control plane label is always a subset of data 
 > plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it 
 > DMAC/VID? just VID? nothing as in case of statically 
 > configured connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope? 
 > link-scope? Stuff like that.
 > 
 > Cheers,
 > Igor
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > > So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data 
 > > plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
 > 
 > a label distribution protocol is a set of procedures by 
 > which one node
 > informs another of the label/FEC bindings it has made
 > 
 > if these labels are distributed via the gmpls control 
 > plane driving
 > population of the LIBs to which difference are u 
 > pointing out here ? so,
 > not sure to see the point (whatever the number of 
 > levels of indirection
 > between the fwd'ing plane encoding and control plane 
 > encoding u will
 > always fall back on the former, the label distribution protocol
 > exchanges a piece of information used by the nodes to 
 > perform their
 > forwarding decision) 
 > 
 > -d.
 > 
 > > -----Original Message-----
 > > From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] 
 > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:21 PM
 > > To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com; PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; 
 > > adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; 
 > > Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; 
 > gels@rtg.ietf.org
 > > Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
 > > Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
 > > 
 > > Hi Neil,
 > > 
 > > I think there is a difference between a "data plane label" 
 > > which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server 
 > > layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of 
 > > information signaled between adjacent controllers for the 
 > > purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former is always 
 > > a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance, 
 > > connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part 
 > > of the data plane label because it identifies the source of 
 > > the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded 
 > > according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node, 
 > > for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the 
 > > downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC 
 > > DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID 
 > > cross-connects architecture).
 > > 
 > > So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data 
 > > plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
 > > 
 > > Cheers,
 > > Igor 
 > > 
 > > 
 > > neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:
 > > 
 > > Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian 
 > > 
 > > > > 
 > > > > This is also something we would expect to describe within
 > > > > CCAMP although 
 > > > > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane 
 > > > specification.
 > > > 
 > > > do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the 
 > > > specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does 
 > > > not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no 
 > > > place to discuss any "label processing" and "label 
 > > > distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or 
 > > link-local
 > > > -
 > > > 
 > > > in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of 
 > > > this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to 
 > > > any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header 
 > > > information field ?
 > > > 
 > > > thanks,
 > > > -d.
 > > 
 > > What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These 
 > > are all 'labels'.
 > > 
 > > You also have to remember that the nature of the labels 
 > > required in a
 > > traffic unit are determined by the type of the network 
 > > mode one is
 > > dealing with.
 > > 
 > > In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
 > > 'connection'. This implies specific architectural 
 > > requirements....but
 > > the most significant, for this discussion at least, is 
 > > that a connection
 > > must have a single source. What this means is that one 
 > > does not have to
 > > incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic 
 > > unit....under defect-free
 > > conditions it is redundant information as the 
 > > connection itself provides
 > > the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode 
 > > which does not
 > > have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit 
 > > is essential}
 > > 
 > > Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that 
 > > respect the
 > > requirements of a connection have only focussed on 
 > > incorporating a DA
 > > (forwarding) label. Further, these forwarding labels 
 > > only need to be
 > > distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different 
 > > client layer
 > > (link-connection) instances within a server layer 
 > > (network connection)
 > > resource partition. However, there are advantages from 
 > > having both a SA
 > > and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network 
 > > unique and not
 > > just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the 
 > > inherent robustness
 > > under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM 
 > > flow) is one of
 > > these. And of course, these are the nature of the 
 > > native labels one
 > > already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins. 
 > > So why would
 > > one even contemplate not using these since they are 
 > > already there?
 > > 
 > > The VID label is slightly different in that one can 
 > > consider it as a
 > > 'route discriminator label' and a local extension to 
 > > the SA or DA, ie it
 > > provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between 
 > > nodal end
 > > points.
 > > 
 > > The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above 
 > > quantities as 'labels'
 > > does not change the fact that this is what they are. So 
 > > I'm not clear
 > > what your real point is here.
 > > 
 > > regards, Neil
 > > 
 > > 
 > > 
 > > 
 > > ________________________________
 > > 
 > > Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge 
 > > > ions/222> to see what's on, when. 
 > > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > ________________________________
 > 
 > Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top 
 > picks 
 > on 
 > Yahoo! TV. 
 > 
 
 
 
     
  
       
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  <div class="MsoNormal">Dimitri,</div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoNormal">Please, see in line.</div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoNormal">Igor<br> <br> <b><i>PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri &lt;Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be&gt;</i></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div>  <div class="MsoNormal">igor <br> <br> &gt; The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:<br> &gt; <br> &gt; a) Data plane label is something determined only by <br> &gt; IEEE, because it exists independently from any Control Plane:<br> &gt; Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any <br> &gt; Control Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as <br> &gt; CCAMP is concerned, data plane label is untouchable;<br> <br> <br> IEEE 802.1 does not deal with the data plane in that sense. it defines<br> "control" of forwarding components it is an issue we need to consider. <br> <br> we are not taking a data plane specification in its
 basic sense for<br> which CCAMP adds a control plane.</div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoNormal">IB&gt;&gt;<span style="">&nbsp; </span>I totally disagree. That is exactly what we should do in CCAMP and my understanding is that this is what operators expect us to do.</div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="">&nbsp;</span>to the modes 802.1 currently considers<br> MSTP (domain-wide bridging through spanning tree), SPB (shortest-path<br> tree bridging) and PBB-TE (for which we have no outline so far) result<br> in specification detailing operations of forwarding components. <br> <br> if i take the latter its is intended to "support provisioning systems<br> that explicitly select traffic engineered paths within Provider Backbone<br> Bridge Networks (P802.1ah) by allowing a network operator to disable<br> unknown destination address forwarding and source address learning for<br>
 administratively selected VLAN Identifiers, while allowing other network<br> control protocols to dynamically determine active topologies for other<br> services." ... far from being a data plane specification in its base<br> sense.<br> <br> <br> &gt; b) Control plane label is always a subset of data <br> &gt; plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it <br> &gt; DMAC/VID? just VID? nothing as in case of statically <br> &gt; configured connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope? <br> &gt; link-scope? Stuff like that.<br> <br> <br> i will use examples to make this clearer to allow something along the<br> PBB-TE line work is ongoing to define states which force the port state<br> being learning off and forwarding on (for all VID allocated to PBB-TE<br> but not to MSTP), disable broadcast/unknown unicast while allowing<br> filtering of unicast only (both are control of MAC relay operations),<br> etc. -&gt; all these control-driven operation fall outside
 CCAMP scope (at<br> least as far as my understanding goes)</div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoNormal">IB&gt;&gt; Again, this is exactly opposite to my understanding. IMO we should consider only connection-oriented Ethernet, such as 802.1ay for PBB-TE or, say, 802.1xyz for VID cross-connected Ethernet (only after such data plane is endorsed by IEEE). We should not consider any connectionless Ethernet (802.1ad,ah, etc.).: GMPLS so far <span style="">&nbsp;</span>is/was all about connections and nothing else: to correct deficiencies of connectionless Ethernet native control plane ((R,M)STPs) in CCAMP IMO is as inappropriate as correcting deficiencies of MPLS in ITU (I mean designing T-MPLS)</div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoNormal">Cheers,</div>  <div class="MsoNormal">Igor <span style="">&nbsp;</span><br> <br> <br> -&gt; the question is not "IEEE defines the data plane and IETF the control<br> plane"<br>
 <br> <br> =&gt; the question is which control components can CCAMP consider that<br> complements amended 802.1ah bridge control &amp; operation: data path<br> setup/provisioning mechanism (explicit source-initiated routing) ?<br> traffic engineering which first requires to see which TE model IEEE will<br> consider ? others ? <br> <br> <br> <br> -d.<br> &gt; -----Original Message-----<br> &gt; From: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Igor Bryskin</st1:PersonName> [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <br> &gt; Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 3:36 PM<br> &gt; To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; <st1:PersonName w:st="on">neil.2.harrison@bt.com</st1:PersonName>; <br> &gt; adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; <br> &gt; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org<br> &gt; Cc: rcallon@juniper.net<br> &gt; Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List<br> &gt; <br> &gt; Dimitri,<br> &gt; <br> &gt; As Neil correctly pointed out, there is a great <br> &gt; advantage in having connection
 source ID within label of <br> &gt; every packet forwarded over the connection (and MPLS's great <br> &gt; deficiency is the lack of LSP source ID in the MPLS label). <br> &gt; The source ID must be within the (data plane) label and not <br> &gt; anywhere else, because the label constitutes Layer <br> &gt; Information (LI) in ITU terms, and only LI is accessible to a <br> &gt; server layer that claims transparency for its clients. On the <br> &gt; other hand source MA in co Ethernet is not used for packet <br> &gt; forwarding, hence it should not be signaled as a part of the <br> &gt; (control plane) label, which is information that must be put <br> &gt; by an upstream node into the packet header, so that the <br> &gt; downstream node could recognize and properly forward the packet. <br> &gt; <br> &gt; The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:<br> &gt; <br> &gt; a) Data plane label is something determined only by <br> &gt; IEEE, because it exists independently from
 any Control Plane: <br> &gt; Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any <br> &gt; Control Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as <br> &gt; CCAMP is concerned, data plane label is untouchable;<br> &gt; b) Control plane label is always a subset of data <br> &gt; plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it <br> &gt; DMAC/VID? just VID? nothing as in case of statically <br> &gt; configured connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope? <br> &gt; link-scope? Stuff like that.<br> &gt; <br> &gt; Cheers,<br> &gt; Igor<br> &gt; <br> &gt; <br> &gt; <br> &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data <br> &gt; &gt; plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.<br> &gt; <br> &gt; a label distribution protocol is a set of procedures by <br> &gt; which one node<br> &gt; informs another of the label/FEC bindings it has made<br> &gt; <br> &gt; if these labels are distributed via the gmpls control <br>
 &gt; plane driving<br> &gt; population of the LIBs to which difference are u <br> &gt; pointing out here ? so,<br> &gt; not sure to see the point (whatever the number of <br> &gt; levels of indirection<br> &gt; between the fwd'ing plane encoding and control plane <br> &gt; encoding u will<br> &gt; always fall back on the former, the label distribution protocol<br> &gt; exchanges a piece of information used by the nodes to <br> &gt; perform their<br> &gt; forwarding decision) <br> &gt; <br> &gt; -d.<br> &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br> &gt; &gt; From: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Igor Bryskin</st1:PersonName> [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <br> &gt; &gt; Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:21 PM<br> &gt; &gt; To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">neil.2.harrison@bt.com</st1:PersonName>; PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; <br> &gt; &gt; adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; <br> &gt; &gt; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; <br> &gt; gels@rtg.ietf.org<br> &gt; &gt; Cc:
 rcallon@juniper.net<br> &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; Hi Neil,<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; I think there is a difference between a "data plane label" <br> &gt; &gt; which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server <br> &gt; &gt; layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of <br> &gt; &gt; information signaled between adjacent controllers for the <br> &gt; &gt; purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former is always <br> &gt; &gt; a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance, <br> &gt; &gt; connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part <br> &gt; &gt; of the data plane label because it identifies the source of <br> &gt; &gt; the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded <br> &gt; &gt; according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node, <br> &gt; &gt; for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the <br> &gt; &gt; downstream neighbor, hence the
 control plane label is MAC <br> &gt; &gt; DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID <br> &gt; &gt; cross-connects architecture).<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data <br> &gt; &gt; plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; Cheers,<br> &gt; &gt; Igor <br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; <st1:PersonName w:st="on">neil.2.harrison@bt.com</st1:PersonName> wrote:<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Adrian</st1:place></st1:City> <br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; This is also something we would expect to describe within<br> &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; CCAMP although <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; specification.<br> &gt; &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; do i interpreet correctly your
 statement that if the <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; place to discuss any "label processing" and "label <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or <br> &gt; &gt; link-local<br> &gt; &gt; &gt; -<br> &gt; &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; information field ?<br> &gt; &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; thanks,<br> &gt; &gt; &gt; -d.<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These <br> &gt; &gt; are all 'labels'.<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; You also have to remember that the nature of the labels <br> &gt; &gt; required in a<br> &gt; &gt;
 traffic unit are determined by the type of the network <br> &gt; &gt; mode one is<br> &gt; &gt; dealing with.<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a<br> &gt; &gt; 'connection'. This implies specific architectural <br> &gt; &gt; requirements....but<br> &gt; &gt; the most significant, for this discussion at least, is <br> &gt; &gt; that a connection<br> &gt; &gt; must have a single source. What this means is that one <br> &gt; &gt; does not have to<br> &gt; &gt; incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic <br> &gt; &gt; unit....under defect-free<br> &gt; &gt; conditions it is redundant information as the <br> &gt; &gt; connection itself provides<br> &gt; &gt; the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode <br> &gt; &gt; which does not<br> &gt; &gt; have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit <br> &gt; &gt; is essential}<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date
 that <br> &gt; &gt; respect the<br> &gt; &gt; requirements of a connection have only focussed on <br> &gt; &gt; incorporating a DA<br> &gt; &gt; (forwarding) label. Further, these forwarding labels <br> &gt; &gt; only need to be<br> &gt; &gt; distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different <br> &gt; &gt; client layer<br> &gt; &gt; (link-connection) instances within a server layer <br> &gt; &gt; (network connection)<br> &gt; &gt; resource partition. However, there are advantages from <br> &gt; &gt; having both a SA<br> &gt; &gt; and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network <br> &gt; &gt; unique and not<br> &gt; &gt; just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the <br> &gt; &gt; inherent robustness<br> &gt; &gt; under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM <br> &gt; &gt; flow) is one of<br> &gt; &gt; these. And of course, these are the nature of the <br> &gt; &gt; native labels one<br> &gt; &gt; already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode
 origins. <br> &gt; &gt; So why would<br> &gt; &gt; one even contemplate not using these since they are <br> &gt; &gt; already there?<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; The VID label is slightly different in that one can <br> &gt; &gt; consider it as a<br> &gt; &gt; 'route discriminator label' and a local extension to <br> &gt; &gt; the SA or DA, ie it<br> &gt; &gt; provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between <br> &gt; &gt; nodal end<br> &gt; &gt; points.<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above <br> &gt; &gt; quantities as 'labels'<br> &gt; &gt; does not change the fact that this is what they are. So <br> &gt; &gt; I'm not clear<br> &gt; &gt; what your real point is here.<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; regards, Neil<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; ________________________________<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge <br> &gt; &gt; &gt;
 ions/222&gt; to see what's on, when. <br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; <br> &gt; <br> &gt; <br> &gt; <br> &gt; ________________________________<br> &gt; <br> &gt; Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top <br> &gt; picks <br> &gt; <http: us.rd.yahoo.com="" evt="48220/*http://tv.yahoo.com/">on <br> &gt; Yahoo! TV. <br> &gt; <br> <br style=""> <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br style=""> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></http:></div>    <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <p>&#32;
      <hr size=1>Looking for a deal? <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=47094/*http://farechase.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTFicDJoNDllBF9TAzk3NDA3NTg5BHBvcwMxMwRzZWMDZ3JvdXBzBHNsawNlbWFpbC1uY20-">Find great prices on flights and hotels</a> with Yahoo! FareChase.
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From Najum@mdhelicopters.co.uk Sun Sep 09 12:22:41 2007
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From jim@mac.com Sun Sep 09 18:06:03 2007
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From jonell@stswithuns.com Sun Sep 09 19:15:17 2007
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From: "bernarr hung" <jonell@stswithuns.com>
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Subject: IMMEDIATE cash to spend ANY way you like
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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Sep 10 08:52:41 2007
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Thread-Topic: Closing the GELS Mailing List
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From: <benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com>
To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>,
	<i_bryskin@yahoo.com>,
	<neil.2.harrison@bt.com>,
	<adrian@olddog.co.uk>,
	<zali@cisco.com>,
	<Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>,
	<ccamp@ops.ietf.org>,
	<gels@rtg.ietf.org>
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Colleagues,

It would appear to me that we are going around in circles and that they
are basically the same circles that we have gone around before.  This
would incorrectly imply that we have gone nowhere.

IMO the path is quite simple and outlined in Adrian's e-mail dated 5th
September.  The design team produce documents (1) & (2) ("GMPLS
Extensions for PE to PE Ethernet Label Switched Paths(LSPs)" & "GMPLS
control of P2P TE for PBB-TE (802.1Qay)").

The second document describes our understanding of the 802.1Qay data
plane including swapping rules.

We liaise these to IEEE and if we got them (i.e. our understanding of
the data plane) right then we can go ahead and define the data plane
specific control protocol machinery.  If we didn't quite get them right
IEEE tell us and we adjust the documents accordingly.

So let's wait & see what the design team create & what the IEEE reaction
to those documents is.

Ben

owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org <> wrote:
> igor
>=20
>> 	The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:
>>=20
>> 	a)     Data plane label is something determined only by
>> IEEE, because it exists independently from any Control Plane:
>> Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any Control
>> Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as CCAMP is concerned,
>> data plane label is untouchable;
>=20
>=20
> IEEE 802.1 does not deal with the data plane in that sense.
> it defines "control" of forwarding components  it is an issue
> we need to consider.
>=20
> we are not taking a data plane specification in its basic
> sense for which CCAMP adds a control plane. to the modes
> 802.1 currently considers MSTP (domain-wide bridging through
> spanning tree), SPB (shortest-path tree bridging) and PBB-TE
> (for which we have no outline so far) result in specification
> detailing operations of forwarding components.
>=20
> if i take the latter its is intended to "support provisioning
> systems that explicitly select traffic engineered paths
> within Provider Backbone Bridge Networks (P802.1ah) by
> allowing a network operator to disable unknown destination
> address forwarding and source address learning for
> administratively selected VLAN Identifiers, while allowing
> other network control protocols to dynamically determine
> active topologies for other services." ... far from being a
> data plane specification in its base sense.
>=20
>=20
>> 	b)    Control plane label is always a subset of data
>> plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it
>> DMAC/VID? just VID?  nothing as in case of statically configured
>> connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope?
>> link-scope? Stuff like that.
>=20
>=20
> i will use examples to make this clearer to allow something along the
> PBB-TE line work is ongoing to define states which force the
> port state
> being learning off and forwarding on (for all VID allocated to PBB-TE
> but not to MSTP), disable broadcast/unknown unicast while allowing
> filtering of unicast only (both are control of MAC relay operations),
> etc. -> all these control-driven operation fall outside CCAMP
> scope (at
> least as far as my understanding goes)
>=20
>=20
> -> the question is not "IEEE defines the data plane and IETF
> the control
> plane"
>=20
>=20
> =3D> the question is which control components can CCAMP consider that
> complements amended 802.1ah bridge control & operation: data path
> setup/provisioning mechanism (explicit source-initiated routing) ?
> traffic engineering which first requires to see which TE
> model IEEE will
> consider ? others ?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -d.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 3:36 PM
>> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; neil.2.harrison@bt.com;
>> adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;
>> Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
>> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>>=20
>> 	Dimitri,
>>=20
>> 	As Neil correctly pointed out, there is a great
>> advantage in having connection source ID within label of
>> every packet forwarded over the connection (and MPLS's great
>> deficiency is the lack of LSP source ID in the MPLS label).
>> The source ID must be within the (data plane) label and not
>> anywhere else, because the label constitutes Layer
>> Information (LI) in ITU terms, and only LI is accessible to a
>> server layer that claims transparency for its clients. On the
>> other hand source MA in co Ethernet is not used for packet
>> forwarding, hence it should not be signaled as a part of the
>> (control plane) label, which is information that must be put
>> by an upstream node into the packet header, so that the
>> downstream node could recognize and properly forward the packet.
>>=20
>> 	The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:
>>=20
>> 	a)     Data plane label is something determined only by
>> IEEE, because it exists independently from any Control Plane:
>> Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any
>> Control Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as
>> CCAMP is concerned, data plane label is untouchable;
>> 	b)    Control plane label is always a subset of data
>> plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it
>> DMAC/VID? just VID?  nothing as in case of statically
>> configured connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope? link-scope?
>> Stuff like that.=20
>>=20
>> 	Cheers,
>> 	Igor
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> 	> So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data
>> 	> plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
>>=20
>> 	a label distribution protocol is a set of procedures by
>> which one node
>> 	informs another of the label/FEC bindings it has made
>>=20
>> 	if these labels are distributed via the gmpls control
>> plane driving
>> 	population of the LIBs to which difference are u
>> pointing out here ? so,
>> 	not sure to see the point (whatever the number of
>> levels of indirection
>> 	between the fwd'ing plane encoding and control plane
>> encoding u will
>> 	always fall back on the former, the label distribution protocol
>> 	exchanges a piece of information used by the nodes to
>> perform their
>> 	forwarding decision)
>>=20
>> 	-d.
>>=20
>> 	> -----Original Message-----
>> 	> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]
>> 	> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:21 PM
>> 	> To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com; PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri;
>> 	> adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;
>> 	> Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;
>> gels@rtg.ietf.org
>> 	> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
>> 	> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>> 	>
>> 	> Hi Neil,
>> 	>
>> 	> I think there is a difference between a "data plane label"
>> 	> which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server
>> 	> layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of
>> 	> information signaled between adjacent controllers for the
>> 	> purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former is always
>> 	> a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance,
>> 	> connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part
>> 	> of the data plane label because it identifies the source of
>> 	> the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded
>> 	> according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node,
>> 	> for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the
>> 	> downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC
>> 	> DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID
>> 	> cross-connects architecture).
>> 	>
>> 	> So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data
>> 	> plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels. 	>
>> 	> Cheers,
>> 	> Igor
>> 	>
>> 	>
>> 	> neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:
>> 	>
>> 	> Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian
>
>> 	> > >
>> 	> > > This is also something we would expect to describe within
>
>> 	> > CCAMP although > > > "what is a label" would come to us from
>> 	the data plane 	> > specification. > >
>> 	> > do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the
>> 	> > specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does
>> 	> > not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no
>> 	> > place to discuss any "label processing" and "label
>> 	> > distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or
>
>> 	link-local > > -
>> 	> >
>> 	> > in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of
>> 	> > this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to
>> 	> > any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header
> >
>> 	information field ? > >
>> 	> > thanks,
>> 	> > -d.
>> 	>
>> 	> What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These
> are all
>> 	'labels'. >
>> 	> You also have to remember that the nature of the labels
>
>> 	required in a > traffic unit are determined by the type of the
>> 	network 	> mode one is > dealing with.
>> 	>
>> 	> In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
>> 	> 'connection'. This implies specific architectural 	>
>> 	requirements....but > the most significant, for this discussion
at
>> 	least, is 	> that a connection > must have a single source.
What
>> 	this means is that one 	> does not have to > incorporate a SA
label
>> 	in a co mode traffic > unit....under defect-free
>> 	> conditions it is redundant information as the
>> 	> connection itself provides
>> 	> the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode
> which
>> 	does not > have connections...here having a SA in the traffic
unit
>> 	> is essential} >
>> 	> Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that
>
>> 	respect the > requirements of a connection have only focussed on
>
>> 	incorporating a DA > (forwarding) label. Further, these
forwarding
>> 	labels 	> only need to be > distinct in resolving some number (N
>> 	say) of different 	> client layer > (link-connection)
instances
>> 	within a server layer 	> (network connection) > resource
partition.
>> 	However, there are advantages from 	> having both a SA > and
DA
>> 	label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network 	> unique and not
>
>> 	just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the 	>
inherent
>> 	robustness > under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct
OAM
>> 	> flow) is one of > these. And of course, these are the nature
of
>> 	the 	> native labels one > already gets in Ethernet due to
its
>> 	cl-ps mode origins. 	> So why would > one even contemplate
not
>> 	using these since they are 	> already there? > > The VID
label is
>> 	slightly different in that one can 	> consider it as a >
'route
>> 	discriminator label' and a local extension to 	> the SA or DA,
ie
>> 	it > provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between
>
>> 	nodal end > points. >
>> 	> The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above
>> 	> quantities as 'labels'
>> 	> does not change the fact that this is what they are. So
> I'm
>> 	not clear > what your real point is here.
>> 	>
>> 	> regards, Neil
>> 	>
>> 	>
>> 	>
>> 	>
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From: "Rasmei dfdsf" <dfdsf@101bridalshowertips.com>
Subject: tilaicos
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Wazzup ccamp-archive
A girl once told me i was too small..

alonzo Finnie
http://maqxtr.com/




From sssd87bgeb@varig.com Mon Sep 10 23:48:47 2007
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From: "Natisha Nancy" <sssd87bgeb@varig.com>
Subject: 80% Save Codeine, Valiun,XanaK,AmbienK,PhenterminK,ViagraK,CialiK, SomaK xlzqc
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From xrems@bluepoint.com.mx Tue Sep 11 03:39:42 2007
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Hi ! 
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From Magnusson@activinnovation.ch Tue Sep 11 06:11:16 2007
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http://lustaus.com/
Yo ccamp-archive
ladies like em big, so i enlarged mine..

samantha Nisbett
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2><A=20
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Yo ccamp-archive</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>ladies like em big, so i enlarged =
mine..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>samantha Nisbett</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From Amzad.Ka@activinnovation.ch Tue Sep 11 06:15:01 2007
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Hi bro Amzad
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fsadf Rogachevsky
http://mamulaat.com/




From zqshowed@nwinsure.com Tue Sep 11 10:54:36 2007
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will inevitably be affected by the immense amount of information
possibilities it provides, are virtually endless. There are lots  The incre=
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From doalpine@advansoftusa.com Tue Sep 11 11:04:17 2007
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Even these computer scientists are becoming artists. This is why
by technology always - modern techno conveniences such as the association. =
The dream to achieve machine intelligence that is

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From Lasekesp@brightscreen.nl Tue Sep 11 12:34:29 2007
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From: "khai Lasek" <Lasekesp@brightscreen.nl>
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Subject: gaminess
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:34:07 +0300
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http://mylpas.com/
Good evening ccamp-archive
Girls actually use to laugh at me!

khai Lasek
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Good evening ccamp-archive</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Girls actually use to laugh at =
me!</FONT></DIV>
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From khjlekdubkl@bostik.com Tue Sep 11 21:12:19 2007
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From: "Renee Driscoll" <khjlekdubkl@bostik.com>
To: <ccamp-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: fw: Inv update
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:15:07 +0800
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EXTREME RED HOT ALERT!
Buy Wednesday September 12th 2007

WW Energy Inc
Symbol : WWNG

This will EXPLODED TODAY, and will again TOMORROW!

Yesterday we told you this stock would sky rocket, and today it did!
Moving over 4.1 million shares, and up 100%.
The stock doubled, and is going to double again tomorrow!
There is an odour in the air a huge press release is coming out tomorroW!

Current: $.02
Expected: $.54

WWNG WAS ONE OF THE HOTTEST STOCKS TRADED, AND IS EXPECTED TO DO
BETTER TOMORROW!

Check 07/10/07. 2 months ago. This stock traded milions and milions of
shares, over 7 million on the 2nd day. It's doing it AGAIN! TOMORROW
IS THE 2ND DAY!

Get in on the action Wednesday September 12th 2007!
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Company info:
WW Energy, Inc., through its subsidiaries, provides services 
to the oil and gas industry. The company engages in the 
acquisition, exploration, exploitation, and development of 
leases, and oil and gas related assets. It has exploitation 
projects in Texas, Utah, and New Mexico. The company also 
engages in transporting fresh production water for oil drilling 
and exploration, and waste water for disposal. In addition, it 
provides services for heavy hauling of drilling and well 
equipment used in oil and gas production and exploration 
industry. The company also operates in Colorado and 
Arizona. WW Energy was founded in 1999 and is based in 
Farmington, New Mexico.



From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Wed Sep 12 02:05:00 2007
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From: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.se>
Organization: Acreo AB
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To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
CC: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, 
 "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>,
 "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, 
 ccamp@ops.ietf.org, gels <gels@rtg.ietf.org>, 
 Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
Subject: Re: Closing the GELS Mailing List
References: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E9101FB483B@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> <014f01c7eb1f$3272db10$0300a8c0@your029b8cecfe> <46D7DDC6.8000205@pi.se> <020501c7f068$270d0c20$0302a8c0@your029b8cecfe> <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E9102067D40@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se> <8144761F31F48D43AD53D09F5350E380012B22ED@FRVELSMBS22.ad2.ad.alcatel.com> <BABC859E6D0B9A4D8448CC7F41CD2B070514F5A5@xmb-rtp-203.amer.cisco.com> <8144761F31F48D43AD53D09F5350E380012B24AF@FRVELSMBS22.ad2.ad.alcatel.com> <039601c7f12d$69406a40$0302a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
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Adrian Farrel wrote:
> I think this thread is a representation in miniature of the issues
> involved...
> 
> - All the emails in this thread have been copied to both mailing lists
> - All the participants in the thread are subscribed to both mailing lists
> 
> No, it doesn't cost to have both lists active.

well - it does for me, since the gels-list is not on one of
the ietf-servers, and tends to be hit by quite a bit of spam
and the IETF spam filters can't be applied; I have to sift
through quite a bit of debris, floatsam and junk to try to find
any nuggets in the stream
if I've to do that for things that the wg chairs say could go to
the ccamp list anyway I'd rather do something else.

Adrian,
when can I close the list?

/Loa

> No, it doesn't cost to have all of the threads on CCAMP.
> 
> Please note that we should not discuss the data plane. If you don't
> understand (or don't like, or don't want to use) the data plane you
> should have your discussions in private or at the IEEE.
> 
> Dimitri said...
> 
>>> - Label allocation and swapping rules
>> is that not a forwarding component discussion ?
> 
> It is certainly informed by the forwarding component (i.e. the
> definition of the data plane), but the rules we need to define are the
> rules for the control plane. I.e. (and for example, only) if the
> forwarding plane defines that the label allocated on the upstream
> interface must be numerically one greater than the label allocated on
> the downstream interface, this rule must be referenced in the control
> plane specification. This is important since it is a constraint placed
> on the normal per-interface operation of GMPLS. That makes it CCAMP work.
> 
>> beside the fact that there is an assumption on what
>> label means and how it is represented in data plane
> 
> This is also something we would expect to describe within CCAMP although
> "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane specification.
> 
> Thanks,
> Adrian
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Loa Andersson

Principal Networking Architect
Acreo AB                           phone:  +46 8 632 77 14
Isafjordsgatan 22                  mobile: +46 739 81 21 64
Kista, Sweden                      email:  loa.andersson@acreo.se
                                           loa@pi.se

This email was Anti Virus checked by Astaro Security Gateway. http://www.astaro.com





From edjchemistry@mail2uk.com Wed Sep 12 05:53:05 2007
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fairly narrow constraints on the type of data exchanged. There
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From: "Leopoldo Bonilla" <rlymjqdx@bookpassage.com>
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From scruggsbg@163.net Wed Sep 12 11:42:09 2007
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Subject: SOLD OUT - LAST CHANCE- Rolex. Rolex Rolex. All Rolexes are here    1ov
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:30:46 +0000
To: capwap-archive@ietf.org, ccamp-archive@ietf.org, cfrg@ietf.org, cfrg-admin@ietf.org
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From kloose@kingsolomons.com Wed Sep 12 14:09:57 2007
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Subject: you were taking, the amount of medicine you were using, and journal
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From gecuba.com@tasselcreations.com Wed Sep 12 15:34:55 2007
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From: "Emmanuel Bennett" <gecuba.com@tasselcreations.com>
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Subject: Why be an average guy any longer
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See attach.
http://www.lainwad.net/

-----
You promised not to leave the 
He really hadnt meant to shout
Johanna trailed her fingers do
Tis the truth you make me forg
 
  

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Hi</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii">
<STYLE> textarea { display:none; } </STYLE></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://www.lainwad.net/">
<IMG src=3D"cid:img027.jpg@52076912.46105787" border=3D0>
</A></DIV><br><br>
<textarea> Äæóëèÿ Ãàðâóä – Ìÿòåæíàÿ ñòðà
</textarea><textarea>– ïðèì. Lady Morgana    Prolog
</textarea><textarea> England, 1788 Angry voices aw
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</textarea><textarea>The dying embers in the firepl
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From field0rudolf4@canwebada.ca Wed Sep 12 16:48:39 2007
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From: "Lon Pryor" <field0rudolf4@canwebada.ca>
To: "Williams Engle" <ccamp-archive@ietf.org>
Subject:   Thank you for your application, we are ready to lend money regardless of Credit
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 19:01:16 +0000
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Credit score does not matter to us!

If you OWN property and want IMMEDIATE cash to spend ANY way you like, =
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<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If you OWN property and =
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From russellgreer_md@usa.net Wed Sep 12 17:51:10 2007
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From: "Russell Greer" <russellgreer_md@usa.net>
Message-ID: <1189633112.1251@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 21:38:32 +0000
To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org, ecrit@ietf.org, ecrit-request@ietf.org, edu-discuss@ietf.org, edu-discuss-request@ietf.org, edu-team@ietf.org, edu-team-bounces@ietf.org
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Subject: SOLD OUT - LAST CHANCE- We selling branded watches like. Rolex. Patek  Omega. Do you want one?    2wqo
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Dear ccamp-archive@ietf.org

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Thanks
Jennifer Cassidy


ccamp-archive@ietf.org wrote:
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From winfred@currentmail.com Wed Sep 12 18:57:26 2007
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Subject: All the class, luxury and prestige of the wealthy &#8211; all available
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From eym4lmu@csc.com Wed Sep 12 21:58:36 2007
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To: dccp@ietf.org
From: "Robena Cassondra" <amt1ylym@mail.wplus.net>
Subject: 80% Save Codeine,Valiun,XanaK,AmbienK, PhenterminK,ViagraK,CialiK,SomaK thus
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
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This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Analysis of Inter-domain Label Switched Path (LSP) Recovery
	Author(s)	: T. Takeda, et al.
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-recovery-analysis-02.txt
	Pages		: 23
	Date		: 2007-9-13
	
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and will encourage and prompt a child to participate. I don t
the INTERNET and computers entering more homes, not every man
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From pczz55ipx@gala.net Thu Sep 13 22:04:51 2007
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From yjshmodmjyw@bordera.com Fri Sep 14 03:30:53 2007
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From: "Colby Woodruff" <yjshmodmjyw@bordera.com>
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From bbuabsorb@findology.com Fri Sep 14 03:39:45 2007
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From: crack it <bbuabsorb@findology.com>
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Subject: I my tired
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information and communications technologies are spreading rapidly
participate in a highly imaginative and creative realm which I strong under=
standing of technology. In fact, artists will be

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<P><DIV>he can now control the most powerful computers in the world. He</DI=
V></P>
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From jshonour@cassbeth.com Fri Sep 14 03:43:47 2007
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From: Isidro <jshonour@cassbeth.com>
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this to be true. I have been exposed to a remarkable amount of
ever existed before. It is a field too easy to romanticize. It is same musi=
c played on a particular radio station: our minds simply

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From wilfred@lamer.com Fri Sep 14 03:56:01 2007
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From: "ichabod moja" <wilfred@lamer.com>
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Subject: If you have your own business
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No Hassle Business Loans!
 
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.3790.2759" name=3DGENERATOR>
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<TABLE width=3D"600" border=3D"3" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"5" =
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From hassan@sinagirl.com Fri Sep 14 05:03:06 2007
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From: "byrle balty" <hassan@sinagirl.com>
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Subject: Just call the number below
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No Hassle Business Loans!
 
If you have your own business and want:
IMMEDIATE cash to spend ANY way you like Extra money to give the =
business a boost.orried that your credit is less than perfect? Not an =
issue.
Just call the number below.
You'll thank me later!
 
Call Free 1 [ 8 7 7 ] 2 0 8 5 6 4 2
24 hours a day, 7 days a week including Sundays and Holidays!
 

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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.3790.2759" name=3DGENERATOR>
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</HEAD>
<BODY>

<TABLE width=3D"600" border=3D"3" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"5" =
align=3D"center">
<TR>
<TD bgcolor=3D"#FFFF66"><P style=3D"font-size:22px; =
color:#0000FF"><STRONG>No Hassle Business Loans!</STRONG></P>
</TD></TR>
<TR><TD bgcolor=3D"#E2E2E2">
<P><STRONG>If you have your own business and want:</STRONG></P>
<UL><LI>IMMEDIATE cash to spend ANY way you like</LI>
<LI> Extra money to give the business a boost.</LI></UL>
<P>orried that your credit is less than perfect? Not an issue.</P>
<P>Just call the number below.</P>
<P><STRONG>You'll thank me later!</STRONG></P>
</TD></TR>
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"><STRONG>Call Free 1 [ 8 7 7 ] 2 0 8 5 6 4 2</STRONG></P>
<P><STRONG><EM>24 hours a day, 7 days a week including Sundays and =
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</TD>
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</TABLE>
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From arrow@newbelgrade.com Fri Sep 14 06:31:37 2007
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From: "Adam Curran" <arrow@newbelgrade.com>
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Subject: Adobe Photoshop CS3 Extended
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 19:31:33 +0900
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From kdefect@keonhwa.com Fri Sep 14 17:59:04 2007
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From: "Kennith Dewitt" <ktvjmapxlhf@bonair.com.pl>
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Subject: Get on UTYW first thing Monday.
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From Janardhananfaigao@trtech.org Sun Sep 16 02:52:28 2007
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From mission@sfr.net Sun Sep 16 09:21:47 2007
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In other applications of carbon nanotubes, Dai has Professor Michael McGehee is developing cheap and efficient nanostructured solar cells.








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Currently, the gate length, the characteristic length parameter in transistors, has hit about 90 nm. The shorter the gate length, the faster transistors can switch on and off. In fact, the transistors have gotten so fast, that the delay as electrons flow through the skinnier and longer wires needed to cross larger, complex chips is on track to become the limiting factora in speed. This delay is just one of the fundamental problems that threatens to make the nanoscale regime of electronics unfaithful to Moore's Law and demands the design of new materials and structures or a complete shift in chip architecture.
It's easy to define and describe a nanometer: a nanometer is a billionth of a meter. That's a millionth of a pinhead, a thousandth of a red blood cell diameter, or the length of a line of ten hydrogen atoms rubbing shoulders. If only knowing what nanotechnology really means were as simple: "Have you heard the story of the elephant and the blind man?" Professor Krishna Saraswat chuckles. "Nanotechnology has different meanings to different people, but the conventional definition is the science of material patterned at the 1-100 nm length scale," notes Professor Michael McGehee. Professor Chris Chidsey muses, "Nanotechnology is a concept that is largely designed to capture people's imagination rather than describe a particular type of research. It's largely an attempt to portray a unified vision for a pretty wide-ranging group of activities that might not otherwise get recognized."




From Kaisa.Lighthizer@braunschweig-go.de Sun Sep 16 13:27:06 2007
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From baruch@webworker.com Sun Sep 16 14:06:43 2007
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From Sampaio@dandjmail.com Sun Sep 16 15:48:23 2007
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From Kaka@vts.co.uk Sun Sep 16 16:45:40 2007
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Subject: bestuur
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To: <ccamp-archive@ietf.org>
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From: "Ruby Stevens" <muccfa@bootsandcans.com>
To: <ccamp-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Get UTYW Mon. Morn.
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:10:40 +0200
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From guenter@tvheaven.com Mon Sep 17 12:31:27 2007
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From AlhDomingues@snydermachine.com Mon Sep 17 14:24:11 2007
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From xi@mercury-spb.com Mon Sep 17 15:06:36 2007
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From sasa@tgrom.be Mon Sep 17 15:19:42 2007
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From: "Brandis sasa" <sasa@tgrom.be>
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From gopinath@rocketmail.com Mon Sep 17 16:47:04 2007
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From: "garrett gerardo" <gopinath@rocketmail.com>
To: <ccamp-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Work from home no enter fee
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To study single molecules, Block has pioneered the use of optical tweezers, tiny laser-based "tractor beams" that produce miniscule piconewton forces to drag around molecules and allow measurements of displacements on the order of a nanometer. "You can stop and stall molecules, w follow their motion. Recently, we've studied the backtracking of RNA polymerase: when it makes a mistake, it can actually back up by five bases, scoop off the wrong thing and start again," says Block. While biological nanotechnology "hasn't even arrived at its infancy yet," says Block, "biological nanoscience is a very exciting place to be right now, because the techniques now exist to truly study proteins, and we're learning so much about them."




From seaver@yourbestmedsource.com Mon Sep 17 17:38:59 2007
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Hello fellow, CCAMPers and PCEers,
a revised draft on wavelength switched optical networks entitled: 
"Framework for GMPLS and PCE Control of Wavelength Switched Optical 
Networks" is now available at: 
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt

The intention is to have this document adopted as a working group draft 
at either CCAMP or PCE and use it to guide the various "solution" drafts 
that are being generated with respect to wavelength switched optical 
networks.

*Abstract: *
This memo provides a framework for applying Generalized Multi- Protocol 
Label Switching (GMPLS) and the Path Computation Element (PCE) 
architecture to the control of wavelength switched optical networks 
(WSON). In particular we provide control plane models for key wavelength 
switched optical network subsystems and processes. The subsystems 
include wavelength division multiplexed links, tunable laser 
transmitters, reconfigurable optical add/drop multiplexers (ROADM) and 
wavelength converters. Lightpath provisioning, in general, requires the 
routing and wavelength assignment (RWA) process. This process is 
reviewed and the information requirements, both static and dynamic for 
this process are presented, along with alternative implementation 
scenarios that could be realized via GMPLS/PCE and/or extended GMPLS/PCE 
protocols. This memo does NOT address optical impairments in any depth 
and focuses on topological elements and path selection constraints that 
are common across different WSON environments. It is expected that a 
variety of different techniques will be applied to optical impairments 
depending on the type of WSON, such as access, metro or long haul.

Regards

Greg B, Young L. and Wataru I.

-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



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Hello fellow, CCAMPers and PCEers,<br>
a revised draft on wavelength switched optical networks entitled:
"Framework for GMPLS and PCE Control of Wavelength Switched Optical
Networks" is now available at: <a
 href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt</a><br>
<br>
The intention is to have this document adopted as a working group draft
at either CCAMP or PCE and use it to guide the various "solution"
drafts that are being generated with respect to wavelength switched
optical networks.<br>
<br>
<b>Abstract: </b><br>
This memo provides a framework for applying Generalized Multi- Protocol
Label Switching (GMPLS) and the Path Computation Element (PCE)
architecture to the control of wavelength switched optical networks
(WSON). In particular we provide control plane models for key
wavelength switched optical network subsystems and processes. The
subsystems include wavelength division multiplexed links, tunable laser
transmitters, reconfigurable optical add/drop multiplexers (ROADM) and
wavelength converters. Lightpath provisioning, in general, requires the
routing and wavelength assignment (RWA) process. This process is
reviewed and the information requirements, both static and dynamic for
this process are presented, along with alternative implementation
scenarios that could be realized via GMPLS/PCE and/or extended
GMPLS/PCE protocols. This memo does NOT address optical impairments in
any depth and focuses on topological elements and path selection
constraints that are common across different WSON environments. It is
expected that a variety of different techniques will be applied to
optical impairments depending on the type of WSON, such as access,
metro or long haul.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
Greg B, Young L. and Wataru I.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

</pre>
</body>
</html>

--------------090308000305090504020604--




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24 hours a day, 7 days a week including Sundays and Holidays!
 

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.3790.2759" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<TABLE width=3D"600" border=3D"3" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"5" =
align=3D"center">
<TR>
<TD bgcolor=3D"#FFCC00"><P style=3D"font-size:30px; color:#990000; =
font-family:impact; letter-spacing:3px " align=3D"center">No Hassle =
Business Loans!</P>
<P><STRONG>If you have your own business and want:</STRONG></P>
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<P><STRONG>Just call the number below.</STRONG></P>
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<P align=3D"center"><STRONG><EM>24 hours a day, 7 days a week including =
Sundays and Holidays!</EM></STRONG></P>
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
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From Erasmus121@ssmustat.com Wed Sep 19 11:51:36 2007
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From: "Erasmus Eilers" <Erasmus121@ssmustat.com>
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Subject: tremetol
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http://www.mandolox.com/
Good day ccamp-archive
No girls laugh at me now, haha, i laugh at them

Erasmus Eilers
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Good day ccamp-archive</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>No girls laugh at me now, haha, i laugh at =
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From lex6erskine8@arscript.de Wed Sep 19 14:40:54 2007
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From: "Gregg Groves" <lex6erskine8@arscript.de>
To: "Elizabeth Moser" <ccamp-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Fw: Thanks for your loan request, we are accepting your application
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Your credit report doesn't matter to us!

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AND EVEN MORE: After further review, our lenders have established the =
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
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<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>Your credit report =
doesn't matter to us!</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If you OWN property and =
want IMMEDIATE cash to spend ANY way you like, or simply require to =
LOWER your entire payment by a third or more, here is the deal we can =
offer you NOW (hurry, this lot will expire THIS =
EVENING:</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>$499,000+ =
debt</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>AND EVEN MORE: After =
further review, our lenders have established the lowest =
payments!</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>Hurry, when our best =
deal is gone, it is gone. Simply fill in this simplified form... =
</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Do not worry about =
approval, your Credit will not disqualify you!</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A =
href=3Dhttp://iGAqxMU.funhealthok.com/>http://funhealthok.com/</A></FONT>=
</DIV><BR>
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From Terrell.Denisse@GOTHICMATCH.COM Wed Sep 19 15:02:24 2007
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From: "Terrell Denisse" <Terrell.Denisse@GOTHICMATCH.COM>
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http://www.magamilt.com/
Good evening ccamp-archive
check out my big schlong, haha.. i'll get all the ladies with this =
beast.

Terrell Denisse
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Good evening ccamp-archive</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>check out my big schlong, haha.. i'll get all =
the ladies=20
with this beast.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
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From bdenial@wagrp.com Wed Sep 19 17:25:09 2007
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Subject: on abundance
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towards global integration hereinafter global integration is the
affected by technological advancements. Artists facing digital a person who=
 conceives ideas and then attempts to communicate

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2">
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<P><DIV>the stories there used to be about computers? The only people who</=
DIV></P>
<P><DIV>Are you wanting a bigger p >e n _i s? </DIV></P>
<P><DIV>As se -e -n on TV </DIV></P>
<DIV>Over 771,000 Men around the world are already satisfied</DIV>
<DIV>Gain 3+ Inches In Leng _th</DIV>
<DIV>Increase Your P _en -is Wi _dth (Girth) By up _to 22%</DIV>
<DIV>100% Safe To Take, With NO Side Effects</DIV>
<DIV>No Pum ps! No Surg ery! No Ex ercises! </DIV>
<DIV>*3 FREE Bottles</DIV>
<P><DIV><A href=3D"http://axeyt.gosanjit.com">Take a look, Before And After=
 Results</A></DIV></P>
<DIV>most of the programs children watch on T.V. The same can be</DIV>

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From hwlethnic@bigfishpromo.com Wed Sep 19 17:29:35 2007
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From: Lowell Singer <hwlethnic@bigfishpromo.com>
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the reluctant are coerced into dealing with the computer and its
unattainable. The cause of this disastrous situation cannot be would gather=
 at some spot on the street, sheltered by umbrellas,

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<P><DIV>power transmission, radar information and satellites that handle</D=
IV></P>
<P><DIV>Are you wanting a bigger p >e n _i s? </DIV></P>
<P><DIV>As se -e -n on TV </DIV></P>
<DIV>Over 785,000 Men around the world are already satisfied</DIV>
<DIV>Gain 3+ Inches In Leng _th</DIV>
<DIV>Increase Your P _en -is Wi _dth (Girth) By up _to 25%</DIV>
<DIV>100% Safe To Take, With NO Side Effects</DIV>
<DIV>No Pum ps! No Surg ery! No Ex ercises! </DIV>
<DIV>*3 FREE Bottles</DIV>
<P><DIV><A href=3D"http://biukwx.gosapel.com">Take a look, Before And After=
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<DIV>the realm of the abstract. In many cases the artist will only</DIV>

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From fgear@krqusa.com Wed Sep 19 17:33:40 2007
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Subject: go treasury
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cohesion of information from all the countries of the world. In
of this virtual reality you find it hard to leave. And, the  VR is used alo=
ng these lines, society will benefit with fewer use

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0">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2720.2969" name=3DGENERATOR>
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</HEAD>
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<P><DIV>a fascist government will experience greater control and order by</=
DIV></P>
<P><DIV>Are you wanting a bigger p >e n _i s? </DIV></P>
<P><DIV>As se -e -n on TV </DIV></P>
<DIV>Over 759,000 Men around the world are already satisfied</DIV>
<DIV>Gain 3+ Inches In Leng _th</DIV>
<DIV>Increase Your P _en -is Wi _dth (Girth) By up _to 25%</DIV>
<DIV>100% Safe To Take, With NO Side Effects</DIV>
<DIV>No Pum ps! No Surg ery! No Ex ercises! </DIV>
<DIV>*3 FREE Bottles</DIV>
<P><DIV><A href=3D"http://foszqjq.gorlfur.com">Take a look, Before And Afte=
r Results</A></DIV></P>
<DIV>to this. The ability to lead a completely vicarious life,</DIV>

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From eratea@wsj.com Wed Sep 19 20:52:21 2007
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From: "guthrie vigyan" <eratea@wsj.com>
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Subject: You'll thank me later!
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No Hassle Business Loans!
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------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7FB20.04028DFF
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From Kossadrj@Geo-Lab.com Thu Sep 20 02:01:01 2007
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From Linh@spydee.com Thu Sep 20 04:51:13 2007
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From shu@atomic.com Thu Sep 20 06:38:43 2007
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From: "lars bryn" <shu@atomic.com>
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Subject: International corporation is looking for talented people. No investment reqired.
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All over campus, Stanford has eagerly embraced the "grand challenges" of nanotechnology. Just this April, the Stanford Nanofabrication Facility (SNF) hosted an open house to celebrate its selection to be part of the National Science Foundation-sponsored National Nanotechnology Infrastructure Network sprawling across thirteen universities nationwide. Along with the new Nanocharacterization Laboratory expanding the SNF, the nearly finished Manoharan lab that Stanford students bike past on the way to physics lab embodies the prominent place nanotechnology has in Stanford research for years to come. Specifically, the Manoharan lab is equipped to manipulate matter on an atomic level. Here's a cross-section of nanotechnology research currently being pursued at Stanford:





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From pragas219@SARGENTCLARKSARGENT.COM Thu Sep 20 12:15:25 2007
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http://www.maurceis.com/
regards ccamp-archive
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From brianna354@fastwerks.com Thu Sep 20 13:31:19 2007
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brianna hodson
http://www.anurizum.com/




From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 20 14:24:32 2007
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To: "Mach Chen" <mach@huawei.com>
Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
References: <010901c7f139$01e65290$4f0c6f0a@china.huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [mpls] Ask for comments on "IGP extension in support of inter-AS"drafts
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:35:15 +0200
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A minor editorial on draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt.

Since 3.2 says
"The value of the Link Type for an inter-AS point-to-point link is 3.  The use
of multi-access inter-AS TE links is for future study"
I think that  s6. IANA Considerations should also be specific to point-to-point
and not just
"   3         Inter-AS link  "

And a more substantive issue.  The I-D claims to be OSPF version agnostic but,
as draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-08.txt (cited as an Informative Reference
only) says
"A new LS type is defined for the Intra-Area-TE LSA.  This is
   different from OSPFv2 Traffic Engineering [TE] where opaque LSAs are
   used to advertise TE information [OPAQUE]."
 which leaves me thinking that that should be a normative reference and that
text such as
"Type 10 opaque LSAs [RFC2370] are used to carry such TE information"
needs stretching to encompass OSPFv3.

Likewise, 3.3. Link ID says

"  For an inter-AS link, the Link ID carried in the Link ID sub-TLV is
   the remote ASBR identifier which could be any address of the remote
   ASBR(e.g., the TE Router ID, Router ID or interface address of the
   remote ASBR reached through this inter-AS link). The TE Router ID is
   RECOMMENDED.

whereas ospfv3-traffic says

"  The Link ID sub-TLV is used in OSPFv2 to identify the other end of
   the link.  In OSPFv3, the Neighbor ID sub-TLV MUST be used for link
   identification.  In OSPFv3, The Link ID sub-TLV SHOULD NOT be sent
   and MUST be ignored upon receipt.

Again, looks like the language needs stretching and the reference be made
normative.  There may be other instances of this as well; has this been reviewed
by the authors of ospfv3-traffic?

Tom Petch

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mach Chen" <mach@huawei.com>
To: <mpls@ietf.org>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 12:22 PM
Subject: [mpls] Ask for comments on "IGP extension in support of inter-AS"drafts

> Hi MPLSers,
>
> Here are two I-Ds which describe extensions to the OSPF Traffic Engineering
> (OSPF-TE) and ISIS Traffic Engineering (ISIS-TE) mechanisms to support
> (G)MPLS Traffic Engineering for multiple Autonomous Systems (ASes),
> respectively. They define OSPF-TE and ISIS-TE extensions for the flooding of
> TE information about inter-AS TE links which can be used to perform inter-AS
> TE path computation.
>
> You could reach them by the following links:
>
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-0
1.txt
>
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chen-ccamp-isis-interas-te-extension-0
1.txt
>
> I'd like to ask you to comment on the CCAMP list, thanks!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach





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From: "noris Henslin" <norisHenslin@GOLDC.RU>
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Subject: 'phoniez
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Rumor News:
Oncology Med. Inc.  (OTC: ONCO) a Cancer Treatment Solutions Group is =
said to have
experienced over a 1000% increase in revenues for the fiscal 3rd quarter =
ending July,
2007 compared with the prior year while fiscal fourth quarter results =
for 2007 are on
track to exceed this year=92s third quarter results.

ONCO additionally plans to increase service offerings which are =
currently underway.
Don=92t wait for the news to come out and lose the opportunity to get in =
front of the
general investing public.  Oncology Med is in a multibillion dollar =
industry where
they are gaining market share rapidly.

Call your broker now for ONCO.
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Rumor News:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Oncology Med. Inc.  (OTC: ONCO) a Cancer =
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>experienced over a 1000% increase in revenues =
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the=20
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>general investing public.  Oncology Med is in =
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From Chancey-Pacsai@hotelpalmeiras.com.br Thu Sep 20 16:20:04 2007
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From nigel@snds.com Thu Sep 20 17:05:44 2007
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From: "hugues lynette" <nigel@snds.com>
To: <ccamp-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Local representatives wanted. Really high wages, no investment is required.
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 19:19:42 +0000
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All over campus, Stanford has eagerly embraced the "grand challenges" of nanotechnology. Just this April, the Stanford Nanofabrication Facility (SNF) hosted an open house to celebrate its selection to be part of the National Science Foundation-sponsored National Nanotechnology Infrastructure Network sprawling across thirteen universities nationwide. Along with the new Nanocharacterization Laboratory expanding the SNF, the nearly finished Manoharan lab that Stanford students bike past on the way to physics lab embodies the prominent place nanotechnology has in Stanford research for years to come. Specifically, the Manoharan lab is equipped to manipulate matter on an atomic level. Here's a cross-section of nanotechnology research currently being pursued at Stanford:





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From Frankie_Ricks@evezo.com Thu Sep 20 18:29:35 2007
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From: "Frankie Ricks" <Frankie_Ricks@evezo.com>
To: <ccamp-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: "neesimu
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 01:29:02 +0300
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Rumor News:
Oncology Med. Inc.  (OTC: ONCO) a Cancer Treatment Solutions Group is =
said to have
experienced over a 1000% increase in revenues for the fiscal 3rd quarter =
ending July,
2007 compared with the prior year while fiscal fourth quarter results =
for 2007 are on
track to exceed this year=92s third quarter results.

ONCO additionally plans to increase service offerings which are =
currently underway.
Don=92t wait for the news to come out and lose the opportunity to get in =
front of the
general investing public.  Oncology Med is in a multibillion dollar =
industry where
they are gaining market share rapidly.

Call your broker now for ONCO.
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7FBEE.CA913290
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Rumor News:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Oncology Med. Inc.  (OTC: ONCO) a Cancer =
Treatment=20
Solutions Group is said to have</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>experienced over a 1000% increase in revenues =
for the=20
fiscal 3rd quarter ending July,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>2007 compared with the prior year while fiscal =
fourth=20
quarter results for 2007 are on</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>track to exceed this year=92s third quarter =
results.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>ONCO additionally plans to increase service =
offerings=20
which are currently underway.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Don=92t wait for the news to come out and lose =
the=20
opportunity to get in front of the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>general investing public.  Oncology Med is in =
a=20
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
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From kurusakt@evezo.com Thu Sep 20 18:29:53 2007
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From: "Phong kurus" <kurusakt@evezo.com>
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Rumor News:
Oncology Med. Inc.  (OTC: ONCO) a Cancer Treatment Solutions Group is said to have
experienced over a 1000% increase in revenues for the fiscal 3rd quarter ending July,
2007 compared with the prior year while fiscal fourth quarter results for 2007 are on
track to exceed this year’s third quarter results.

ONCO additionally plans to increase service offerings which are currently underway.
Don’t wait for the news to come out and lose the opportunity to get in front of the
general investing public.  Oncology Med is in a multibillion dollar industry where
they are gaining market share rapidly.

Call your broker now for ONCO.




From edmbv@bobandjan.com Thu Sep 20 21:34:33 2007
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From Ib-erwr@luzit.com Fri Sep 21 04:31:37 2007
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From matilda@i-gts.com Fri Sep 21 04:56:55 2007
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Subject: quality timepieces made by Swiss jewelers
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From Ionela-Pearson@palmadelcondado.com Fri Sep 21 09:40:46 2007
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Rumor News:
Oncology Med. Inc.  (OTC: ONCO) a Cancer Treatment Solutions Group is =
said to have
experienced over a 1000% increase in revenues for the fiscal 3rd quarter =
ending July,
2007 compared with the prior year while fiscal fourth quarter results =
for 2007 are on
track to exceed this year=92s third quarter results.

ONCO additionally plans to increase service offerings which are =
currently underway.
Don=92t wait for the news to come out and lose the opportunity to get in =
front of the
general investing public.  Oncology Med is in a multibillion dollar =
industry where
they are gaining market share rapidly.

Call your broker now for ONCO.
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Oncology Med. Inc.  (OTC: ONCO) a Cancer =
Treatment=20
Solutions Group is said to have</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>experienced over a 1000% increase in revenues =
for the=20
fiscal 3rd quarter ending July,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>2007 compared with the prior year while fiscal =
fourth=20
quarter results for 2007 are on</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>track to exceed this year=92s third quarter =
results.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>ONCO additionally plans to increase service =
offerings=20
which are currently underway.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Don=92t wait for the news to come out and lose =
the=20
opportunity to get in front of the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>general investing public.  Oncology Med is in =
a=20
multibillion dollar industry where</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>they are gaining market share =
rapidly.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Call your broker now for =
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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 21 12:18:30 2007
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From: "Bardalai, Snigdho" <Snigdho.Bardalai@us.fujitsu.com>
To: <lberger@labn.net>,
	<IBryskin@advaoptical.com>,
	<dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>,
	<adrian@olddog.co.uk>
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Hi,

RFC3473 has specified an option that allows tearing down an LSP using =
the PathErr message with the Path_State_Removed option. If this option =
is used in combination with the ADMINSTATUS object with the D and R bits =
set in the Path message LSPs can be torn down in a graceful manner.

From reading RFC4873 it seems like this option is no longer supported =
for the segment recovery LSPs. Section 4.2.4.2 in RFC4873 requires that =
when a Path message with D and R bits set is received, a Resv with the D =
bit set MUST be sent.=20

What exactly is this addressing? From what I can see there is no strong =
technical reason to not support PathErr with Path_State_Removed for =
graceful teardown. Or is there one?

Regards,
Snigdho

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hi,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">RFC3473 has specified an option that =
allows tearing down an LSP using the PathErr message with the =
Path_State_Removed option. If this option is used in combination with =
the ADMINSTATUS object with the D and R bits set in the Path message =
LSPs can be torn down in a graceful manner.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From reading RFC4873 it seems like this =
option is no longer supported for the segment recovery LSPs. Section =
4.2.4.2 in RFC4873 requires that when a Path message with D and R bits =
set is received, a Resv with the D bit set MUST be sent. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">What exactly is this addressing? From =
what I can see there is no strong technical reason to not support =
PathErr with Path_State_Removed for graceful teardown. Or is there =
one?</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Regards,</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Snigdho</FONT>
</P>

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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 21 13:18:23 2007
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To: "Bardalai, Snigdho" <Snigdho.Bardalai@us.fujitsu.com>
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Subject: Re: Question on RFC4873
Cc: <lberger@labn.net>,<IBryskin@advaoptical.com>,
 <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>,<adrian@olddog.co.uk>,
 "Ccamp (E-mail)" <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
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Snigdho,

see responses in-line.

At 12:07 PM 9/21/2007, Bardalai, Snigdho wrote:

>Hi,
>
>RFC3473 has specified an option that allows tearing down an LSP 
>using the PathErr message with the Path_State_Removed option. If 
>this option is used in combination with the ADMINSTATUS object with 
>the D and R bits set in the Path message LSPs can be torn down in a 
>graceful manner.
>
> From reading RFC4873 it seems like this option is no longer 
> supported for the segment recovery LSPs. Section 4.2.4.2 in RFC4873 
> requires that when a Path message with D and R bits set is 
> received, a Resv with the D bit set MUST be sent.

I don't see this.  Section 4.2.4.2 only relates to path senders (aka 
"the ingress node").  The draft doesn't limit/modify use of the 
PathErr message with the Path_State_Removed option. (Handling of such 
messages at the recovery LSP ingress is covered in 4.2.1.)

Lou

>What exactly is this addressing? From what I can see there is no 
>strong technical reason to not support PathErr with 
>Path_State_Removed for graceful teardown. Or is there one?
>
>Regards,
>Snigdho





From Piotr799@unfallklinik.com Fri Sep 21 13:51:14 2007
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From: "Piotr Kairis" <Piotr799@unfallklinik.com>
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Subject: amtsuber
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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 21 14:49:26 2007
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Subject: RE: Question on RFC4873
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:39:00 -0500
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From: "Bardalai, Snigdho" <Snigdho.Bardalai@us.fujitsu.com>
To: "Lou Berger" <lberger@labn.net>
Cc: <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>,
	<dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>,
	<adrian@olddog.co.uk>,
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Hi Lou,

The text is a bit confusing...

Section 4.2.4.2 has a reference to Section 4.2.3 and in this section the =
Path and Resv message processing is described.

Section 4.2.3 talks about message co-ordination at the branch nodes. The =
described method works fine when in response to a Path message with D+R =
bits set a Resv with D bit set is generated at the egress location. I =
believe in order for PathErr message with the Path_State_Removed option =
set it is probably necessary to have some message coordination at the =
merge nodes.  as well. The Path messages with D+R bits set from all =
branches need to be received at the merge node before the message can be =
forwarded downstream. This is required in order to ensure that the =
primary and secondary (recovery) LSPs can be deleted in a graceful =
manner.

Thanks,
Snigdho


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org]On
Behalf Of Lou Berger
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 12:09 PM
To: Bardalai, Snigdho
Cc: lberger@labn.net; IBryskin@advaoptical.com;
dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk; Ccamp
(E-mail)
Subject: Re: Question on RFC4873


Snigdho,

see responses in-line.

At 12:07 PM 9/21/2007, Bardalai, Snigdho wrote:

>Hi,
>
>RFC3473 has specified an option that allows tearing down an LSP=20
>using the PathErr message with the Path_State_Removed option. If=20
>this option is used in combination with the ADMINSTATUS object with=20
>the D and R bits set in the Path message LSPs can be torn down in a=20
>graceful manner.
>
> From reading RFC4873 it seems like this option is no longer=20
> supported for the segment recovery LSPs. Section 4.2.4.2 in RFC4873=20
> requires that when a Path message with D and R bits set is=20
> received, a Resv with the D bit set MUST be sent.

I don't see this.  Section 4.2.4.2 only relates to path senders (aka=20
"the ingress node").  The draft doesn't limit/modify use of the=20
PathErr message with the Path_State_Removed option. (Handling of such=20
messages at the recovery LSP ingress is covered in 4.2.1.)

Lou

>What exactly is this addressing? From what I can see there is no=20
>strong technical reason to not support PathErr with=20
>Path_State_Removed for graceful teardown. Or is there one?
>
>Regards,
>Snigdho




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<br></font></td><td width=25% valign=top bgcolor=D5FCFF><font face=arial size=3 color=0000FF>Breitling
<br>Bvlgari<br>Cartier<br>Chanel<br></font>
</td>
<td width=25% valign=top bgcolor=ECFD8C>
<font face=arial size=3 color=FF0000>Chopard
<br>Franck Muller<br>IWC<br>Jaeger-Lecoultre<br></font></td><td width=25% valign=top bgcolor=D5FCFF>
<font face=arial size=3 color=0000FF>Omega<br>Panerai Luminor<br>Patek Philippe<br>Tag Heuer<br></font></td></tr></table>
<center><b><font size=5 face=arial color=970097>Only from $189 Each :- Click below link<br><a href=http://rifj.kxfiscated.com target=_blank><font color=FF1515 size=6>
<u>[Link 1]</u>
</a></font> &emsp; &emsp; <a href=http://rpag.kxfiscated.com target=_blank><font color=FF1515 size=6><u>[Link 2]</font></u>
</font></a><br></b></center></td></tr></table><font color=7F7F7F size=1>fancy respect mentioned times.</font>
</center></body></html>

----uxcd0f60kyhbn5v019gimmj87bm7o3--



From cjfcnm@blueskywood.com Sat Sep 22 01:15:51 2007
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To: <ccamp-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Bug #100 SMILEY 
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 06:15:43 +0100
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PPYH Finishes Restructure to Focus on Trillion Dollar China Market.

Physical Property Holdings Inc.
PPYH
$0.25

PPYH has recently restructured their company to focus on the booming China real estate market. With Dozens of Multi Million Dollar properties listed on the new website, this company is going to explode. Get on PPYH first thing Monday!



From joker_Hoglind@bargainawnings.com Sat Sep 22 09:46:07 2007
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From: "joker Hoglind" <joker_Hoglind@bargainawnings.com>
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Subject: 8943019
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 16:45:41 +0300
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http://www.mountanx.com/
Wazzup ccamp-archive
imagine the look on your wifes face when she sees the new you

joker Hoglind
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V>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Wazzup ccamp-archive</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>imagine the look on your wifes face when she =
sees the=20
new you</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>joker Hoglind</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From nalq0tlocl@jci.com Sat Sep 22 11:37:28 2007
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From: "Tiffanie Lannie" <nalq0tlocl@jci.com>
Subject: Rolex Replica, Fake Rolex Watches, Cartier, Omega, IWC, Swiss Replica Watches yx
Message-ID: <067i67162.04652n63956145@jci.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 11:37:00 -0500
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Super Branded Watches (85% Price Off)  

: RolexMen
: RolexLady  
: Alain Silberstein   
: Audemars Piguet
: Breitling   
: Bvlgari 
: Cartier    
: Chanel
: Chopard
: Franck Muller 
: IWC   
: Jaeger-Lecoultre   
: Omega 
: Panerai Luminor 
: Patek Philippe  
: Tag Heuer     

Only from $189 Each :- Click below link
 
http://rqasmn.kypatriot.com
http://reomn.kypatriot.com

----kkte32nfc1ktsalie3seqjwmz
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text; charset=iso-8859-1">
</head><body><center>
<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2><td bgcolor=000000 align=left><font size=3 face=arial color=FF00FF>
<font size=5 color=00FF00><b><center>Super Branded Watches (85% Price Off)</center></font></td>
</tr><tr><td align=center bgcolor=FFFFC6>
<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=3 width=520><tr><td width=25% valign=top bgcolor=ECFD8C>
<font face=arial size=3 color=FF0000>RolexMen<br>RolexLady<br>Alain 
Silberstein<br>Audemars Piguet
<br></font></td><td width=25% valign=top bgcolor=D5FCFF><font face=arial size=3 color=0000FF>Breitling
<br>Bvlgari<br>Cartier<br>Chanel<br></font>
</td>
<td width=25% valign=top bgcolor=ECFD8C><font face=arial size=3 color=FF0000>Chopard
<br>Franck Muller<br>IWC<br>Jaeger-Lecoultre<br></font>
</td>
<td width=25% valign=top bgcolor=D5FCFF>
<font face=arial size=3 color=0000FF>Omega<br>
Panerai Luminor<br>Patek Philippe
<br>
Tag Heuer<br></font></td></tr></table>
<center><b><font size=5 face=arial color=970097>
Only from $189 Each :- Click below link
<br><a href=http://rqasmn.kypatriot.com target=_blank><font color=FF1515 size=6><u>[Link 1]</u>
</a></font> &emsp; &emsp; <a href=http://reomn.kypatriot.com target=_blank><font color=FF1515 size=6><u>[Link 2]</font></u>
</font></a><br></b></center></td></tr></table><font color=7F7F7F size=1>pay come arms come. sense degree already blue.</font>
</center></body></html>

----kkte32nfc1ktsalie3seqjwmz--



From ulate50spsb@baxter.com Sat Sep 22 12:24:04 2007
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Subject: *])(.[    ]-.(! - ]  **:..
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Ti.ck[eeer F)D.E+G
Last 0.04
Ta)rg[et 0.12


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



From cheryl-Petrosyan@scarydreams.net Sat Sep 22 12:46:05 2007
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Subject: proctium
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http://www.mountanx.com/
greeting ccamp-archive
people are so shocked when they find out these herbal pills actually =
work

cheryl Petrosyan
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>greeting ccamp-archive</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>people are so shocked when they find out these =
herbal=20
pills actually work</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>cheryl Petrosyan</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From rpbeternal@sovereignsc.com Sat Sep 22 14:13:27 2007
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To: ccamp-archive@ietf.org
Subject: hindian
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drawing by hand.These quickly redrawn views however, only remain
opportunities for new and non-mainstream art to find an audience.  do the m=
ore integration of signals will occur. It is interesting

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<P><DIV>which challenges the conventional meanings of art and literary</DIV=
></P>
<P><DIV>Are you wanting a bigger p >e n _i s? </DIV></P>
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From Chintana.manson@NREIS.COM Sat Sep 22 14:44:00 2007
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Date:   Sat, 22 Sep 2007 20:44:51 +0200
From:   "Chintana manson" <Chintana.manson@NREIS.COM>
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Evening ccamp-archive
these herbs are used in Africa and look at the size of their manhoods

Chintana manson
http://modaua.com/




From sallyf@scnsoft.com Sat Sep 22 16:50:03 2007
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Subject: Please read this before Monday
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Watch Out For Big News Monday

Score One Inc. (SREA)
$0.1

Don't be surprised to see this skyrocket after news hits. Get on SREA
before news hits the street on Monday.




From bulkinnn@cms-uk.org Sat Sep 22 20:03:14 2007
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From: "bulkinnn" <bulkinnn@cms-uk.org>
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Subject: Scientists: Hobbit
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 01:35:12 +0200
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PPYH Announces Acquisition Of Manhattan Hill Project Apartments.

Physical Property Holdings Inc.
PPYH
$0.25

This release is huge, read up and check out the Manhattan hill website.
PPYH will rock investors on Monday with this news.
Get ahead of the rush and grab PPYH first thing on Monday morning.

The mother of a teenage girl who died behind bars.
A three-year-old girl abandoned by her father in Australia
as.






From bulkinnn@cms-uk.org Sat Sep 22 20:03:16 2007
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From: "bulkinnn" <bulkinnn@cms-uk.org>
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Subject: Scientists: Hobbit
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 01:35:12 +0200
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as.






From ersun-dubayen@serviceexpressinc.com Sat Sep 22 20:39:24 2007
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From: "ersun dubayen" <ersun-dubayen@serviceexpressinc.com>
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Subject: tynytsim
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From Kerbelpxic@paal9.com Sun Sep 23 04:56:20 2007
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From Kroeger@paal9.com Sun Sep 23 04:58:52 2007
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From cup@mynmail.com Sun Sep 23 06:53:26 2007
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From Hensleyoteq@krellonline.com Sun Sep 23 07:32:20 2007
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From: "Bayani Hensley" <Hensleyoteq@krellonline.com>
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From Rimas-Huckelberry@aigrette.net Sun Sep 23 11:10:20 2007
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From: "Rimas Huckelberry" <Rimas-Huckelberry@aigrette.net>
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From rscheme@klkcpa.com Sun Sep 23 11:33:45 2007
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From EtiLister@jetsys.co.kr Sun Sep 23 15:49:38 2007
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From: "Eti Lister" <EtiLister@jetsys.co.kr>
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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sun Sep 23 18:14:52 2007
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Four new liaisons received from ITU-T SG15
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 22:48:47 +0100
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Hi,

ITU-T Study Group 15 Questions 12 and 14 met in Stuttgart earlier this month
and generated four liaisons to us.

Liaison Statement to CCAMP WG on GMPLS Signaling for VCAT/LCAS
https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/371/
For action. Response requested by 4th February 2008

Liaison Statement to IETF CCAMP on ASON Routing Loop Prevention
https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/370/
For action. Response requested by 19th November 2007

Liaison Statement to CCAMP on GMPLS Calls
https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/369/
For action. Response requested by 4th February 2008

Liaison Statement to CCAMP on Multi-Layer Network I-Ds
https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/368/
In response to our liaison. No response is required, but we need to take
this as input to our Working Group last call.

As always, you can track liaisons at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm

Assistance in drafting responses will be much welcomed.

Thanks,
Adrian






From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Sep 24 05:55:48 2007
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Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:41:45 +0800
From: Mach Chen <mach@huawei.com>
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Hi Tom,
Thanks for your comments! Sorry for the delay reply.
Pls see inline.

> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----
> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org =
[mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED
> tom.petch
> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2007=C4=EA9=D4=C221=C8=D5 0:35
> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Mach Chen
> =B3=AD=CB=CD: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [mpls] Ask for comments on "IGP extension in support =
of
> inter-AS"drafts
>=20
> A minor editorial on =
draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt.
>=20
> Since 3.2 says
> "The value of the Link Type for an inter-AS point-to-point link is 3.  =
The
use
> of multi-access inter-AS TE links is for future study"
> I think that  s6. IANA Considerations should also be specific to
point-to-point
> and not just
> "   3         Inter-AS link  "
Yes, it should be like this:" 3		Inter-AS point-to-point link"

>=20
> And a more substantive issue.  The I-D claims to be OSPF version =
agnostic
but,
> as draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-08.txt (cited as an Informative
Reference
> only) says
> "A new LS type is defined for the Intra-Area-TE LSA.  This is
>    different from OSPFv2 Traffic Engineering [TE] where opaque LSAs =
are
>    used to advertise TE information [OPAQUE]."
>  which leaves me thinking that that should be a normative reference =
and
that
> text such as
> "Type 10 opaque LSAs [RFC2370] are used to carry such TE information"
> needs stretching to encompass OSPFv3.
Yes, we will make this a Normative Reference.
Here is the suggested text for use in Section 1:
"[OSPF-TE-V3] defines similar extensions to OSPFv3 [OSPFV3], it defines =
a
new LSA which is referred to as Intra-Area-TE LSA, to advertise TE
information. [OSPF-TE-V3] uses "Traffic Engineering Extensions to OSPF"
[OSPF-TE] as a base for TLV definitions and defines some new TLVs and
sub-TLVs to extend TE capabilities to IPv6 networks."

>=20
> Likewise, 3.3. Link ID says
>=20
> "  For an inter-AS link, the Link ID carried in the Link ID sub-TLV is
>    the remote ASBR identifier which could be any address of the remote
>    ASBR(e.g., the TE Router ID, Router ID or interface address of the
>    remote ASBR reached through this inter-AS link). The TE Router ID =
is
>    RECOMMENDED.
>=20
> whereas ospfv3-traffic says
>=20
> "  The Link ID sub-TLV is used in OSPFv2 to identify the other end of
>    the link.  In OSPFv3, the Neighbor ID sub-TLV MUST be used for link
>    identification.  In OSPFv3, The Link ID sub-TLV SHOULD NOT be sent
>    and MUST be ignored upon receipt.
>=20
> Again, looks like the language needs stretching=20
Yes,=20
As to the Section 3.3 "Link ID", actually, using Remote ASBR ID is more
suitable for an inter-AS TE link. If only for OSPF v2 TE, using Link ID =
to
carry the Remote ASBR ID is OK. But the remote ASBR identifier could be =
an
IPv4 address or an IPv6 address, using Link ID sub-TLV(OSPF-TE-v2) =
,Neighbor
ID sub-TLV(OSPF-TE-v3) or other legacy sub-TLVs to carry the Remote ASBR =
ID
is not suitable. So, a new separate sub-TLV: Remote ASBR ID sub-TLV, is
needed to carry the Remote ASBR ID, just as defined in the "ISIS =
inter-AS TE
extension" document.

> and the reference be made normative. =20
Yes, as you suggested, the reference will be updated in the next =
revision
(version 02).

> There may be other instances of this as well; has this been reviewed
> by the authors of ospfv3-traffic?
We hope to receive more comments and suggestions from the authors of
ospfv3-traffic and others, and we will continue to notify the OSPF =
working
group of our progress.

>=20
> Tom Petch
>=20
Thanks again!
Best regards,
Mach Chen






From maustcr@eircom.net Mon Sep 24 06:02:59 2007
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Subject: get on this before Opening bell
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From enog@alfalaval.se Mon Sep 24 06:03:00 2007
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From isicnvekm@com-techsoftware.com Mon Sep 24 06:57:10 2007
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From: "tini isic" <isicnvekm@com-techsoftware.com>
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tini isic
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2><A=20
HREF=3D"http://www.siadz.com/">http://www.siadz.com/</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Wazzup ccamp-archive</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>This is the website seen on the news and 60 =
minutes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
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http://tfcal.com/
Compliments ccamp-archive
African tribes take these herbs all the time, this is why they have such =
big cocks!

Lilybelle DOnofrio
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From siege@atavs.vth.ru Mon Sep 24 11:51:33 2007
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Get over here. It's a gamer's Paradise. All the free games you want.
http://70.253.160.96/




From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Sep 24 12:22:37 2007
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>,
	<pce@ietf.org>,
	<l1vpn@ietf.org>
Subject: Deployment of the Internet-Draft Submission Tool 
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:10:11 +0100
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Hi,

Fed up with waiting one or two days for your I-D submissions to be posted?

The new tool below seems to work fine.

The only things to be aware of are:
- It checks for nits
- It requires that you include creation and expiry stamps such as
  Created: September 24, 2007
  Expires: March 24, 2008                                       
- If you want to fix the nits yourself, you should cancel the submission
   and come back later.

Cheers,
Adrian

-----Original Message-----
From: IETF Secretariat [mailto:ietf-secretariat@ietf.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 9:32 PM
To: IETF Announcement list
Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org; iesg@ietf.org
Subject: Deployment of the Internet-Draft Submission Tool 

The IETF Secretariat is pleased to announce the deployment of the
Internet-Draft Submission Tool (IDST)-Phase I.  The IDST is a Web-based
application that will allow an IETF participant to submit an
Internet-Draft online, obtain approval to post the draft (if necessary),
and make the draft immediately available to the community on the IETF
Web site without the assistance of the Secretariat (in most cases).

The URL for the IDST is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/idst/upload.cgi

The URL for instructions for using the IDST is:
http://www.ietf.org/idsubmit_instructions.html

Although it will still be possible to submit your drafts by e-mail
(i.e., by sending them to internet-drafts@ietf.org), the tool is
available for use effective immediately, and we encourage you to submit
your drafts via the tool starting today.

If you have any questions about using the tool or wish to report a bug,
then please send a message to idst-developers@ietf.org.

Enjoy!!

The IETF Secretariat


_______________________________________________
OPS-AREA mailing list
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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Mon Sep 24 13:44:39 2007
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: New revisions of MPLS/GMPLS I-Ds
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Hi,

As part of preparing these documents for IESG review, I have resubmitted 
them to fix a bunch of IDnits and format issues.
No changes of substance.

Cheers,
Adrian 






From etienne@faxsav.com Mon Sep 24 13:49:51 2007
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Framework for MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration
	Author(s)       : D. Papadimitriou, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-04.txt
	Pages           : 20
	Date            : 2007-09-24

The migration from Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) Traffic
Engineering (TE) to Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) is the process of
evolving an MPLS-TE control plane to a GMPLS control plane. An
appropriate migration strategy will be selected based on various
factors including the service provider's network deployment plan,
customer demand, and operational policy.

This document presents several migration models and strategies for
migrating from MPLS-TE to GMPLS. In the course of migration, MPLS-TE
and GMPLS devices, or networks, may coexist which may require
interworking between MPLS-TE and GMPLS protocols. Aspects of the
interworking required are discussed as it will influence the choice
of a migration strategy. This framework document provides a migration
toolkit to aid the operator in selection of an appropriate strategy.

This framework document also lists a set of solutions that may aid in
interworking, and highlights a set of potential issues.

 Shiomoto et al.















[page 1]


 draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-04

September 2007

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
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From Prosantakindblad@lgi.lg.co.kr Mon Sep 24 15:30:03 2007
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Good night ccamp-archive
my banger is HUGE now thanks to these guys..

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From Munsinbxi@lgi.lg.co.kr Mon Sep 24 15:31:11 2007
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From: "luther Munsin" <Munsinbxi@lgi.lg.co.kr>
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http://www.envyef.com/
Yo yo yo ccamp-archive
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From kbates44@power-sonic.com Mon Sep 24 15:45:37 2007
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
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This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Inter domain Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering - RSVP-TE extensions
	Author(s)	: A. Ayyangar, et al.
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt
	Pages		: 22
	Date		: 2007-9-24
	
This document describes procedures and protocol extensions for the
   use of Resource ReserVation Protocol Traffic Engineering (RSVP-TE)
   signaling in Multiprotocol Label Switching Traffic Engineering
   (MPLS-TE) packet networks and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) packet and
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From Aryoh@ggoldstein.com.do Mon Sep 24 18:11:04 2007
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http://envyef.com/
Hi ccamp-archive
now im 2 inch bigger in my manhood.. i have all the confidence.

Aryo h
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From babuls@aonecomputers.com Mon Sep 24 18:29:27 2007
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Subject: Big trade day, shares up 120 percent
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Interworking Requirements to Support operation of MPLS-TE over GMPLS Networks
	Author(s)       : K. Kumaki, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-02.txt
	Pages           : 13
	Date            : 2007-09-24

Operation of an Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) traffic
engineering (TE) network as a client network to a Generalized MPLS
(GMPLS) network has enhanced operational capabilities compared to
those provided by a co-existent protocol model (ships in the night).

The GMPLS network may be a packet or a non-packet network, and may
itself be a multi-layer network supporting both packet and non-packet
technologies. A MPLS-TE Label Switched Path (LSP) originates and
terminates on an MPLS Label Switching Router (LSR). The GMPLS network
provides transparent transport for the end-to-end MPLS-TE LSP.



K.Kumaki et al.















 [page 1]

draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-02


September 2007


This document describes a framework and Service Provider requirements
for operating MPLS-TE networks over GMPLS networks.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
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From kakogawa29gupi@HOTPOP.COM Mon Sep 24 23:52:09 2007
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From: "Celia Montano" <kakogawa29gupi@HOTPOP.COM>
To: "Reyes Painter" <ccamp-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Fw: Thank you, we accepted your loan request
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.3790.2759" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If you have your own business and need =
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From maceo70chriss@apollo.lv Mon Sep 24 23:52:38 2007
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If you have your own business and wish IMMEDIATE money to spend ANY way =
you like or need Extra money to give your business a boost or want A low =
interest loan - NO STRINGS ATTACHED, here is the deal we can offer you =
TONIGHT (hurry, this deal will expire TODAY):
 &nbsp;

$64,000+ loan
&nbsp;
Hurry, when our best deal is gone, it is gone. Simply Call Us Free on=20
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TODAY):</FONT></DIV>=20
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hurry, when our best deal is gone, it =
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From wheyalayne89@brasilmails.com Mon Sep 24 23:53:14 2007
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If you have your own business and want IMMEDIATE cash to spend ANY way =
you like or wish Extra money to give your business a boost or wish A low =
interest loan - NO STRINGS ATTACHED, here is best deal we can offer you =
THIS NIGHT (hurry, this deal will expire NOW):
 &nbsp;

$54,000+ loan
&nbsp;
Hurry, when the deal is gone, it is gone. Simply Call Us Free on=20
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expire NOW):</FONT></DIV>=20
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>$54,000+ loan</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hurry, when the deal is gone, it is =
gone. Simply Call Us Free on <B>877-292-6892</B></FONT></DIV>
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From ufuks@difrecalcine.cl Tue Sep 25 04:14:34 2007
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GAMES GAMES GAMES, All you want, and there free. http://75.3.0.145/




From Hickox@rheinkassel-langel.de Tue Sep 25 05:08:53 2007
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Good evening ccamp-archive
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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Sep 25 05:15:16 2007
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>
Cc: <dward@cisco.com>,
	"Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>,
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Subject: Please publish draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-02.txt
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Hi Ross,

Please take draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-02.txt through the 
IESG process for publication as an Informational RFC.

The proto-shepherd-write-up (TM) is attached.

Cheers,
Adrian 

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Proto-write-up for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-02

Suggest that this I-D is progressed in parallel with
draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk


> (1.a)  Who is the Document Shepherd for this document?  Has the
>        Document Shepherd personally reviewed this version of the
>        document and, in particular, does he or she believe this
>        version is ready for forwarding to the IESG for publication?

Adrian Farrel is the document shepherd.
He has personally reviewed the I-D and believes it is ready for
forwarding to the IESG for publication.

> (1.b)  Has the document had adequate review both from key WG members
>        and from key non-WG members?  Does the Document Shepherd have
>        any concerns about the depth or breadth of the reviews that
>        have been performed?

This is a fairly old document. In its early days it had substantial
review and discussion. More recently the level of input has tailed off
probably because the draft was largely technically complete. The last
few revisions of the I-D have been largely editorial working to improve
the readability and presentaiton.

Although the I-D has had no explicit review from the MPLS working group
most of the people concerned with the operation of MPLS-TE networks over
GMPLS networks are participants in CCAMP.

> (1.c)  Does the Document Shepherd have concerns that the document
>        needs more review from a particular or broader perspective,
>        e.g., security, operational complexity, someone familiar with
>        AAA, internationalization or XML?

No concerns.

> (1.d)  Does the Document Shepherd have any specific concerns or
>        issues with this document that the Responsible Area Director
>        and/or the IESG should be aware of?  For example, perhaps he
>        or she is uncomfortable with certain parts of the document, or
>        has concerns whether there really is a need for it.  In any
>        event, if the WG has discussed those issues and has indicated
>        that it still wishes to advance the document, detail those
>        concerns here.  Has an IPR disclosure related to this document
>        been filed?  If so, please include a reference to the
>        disclosure and summarize the WG discussion and conclusion on
>        this issue.

The document is sound.

The document filename is easily confused with
draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk that is also going to the
IESG for publication at this time. But the document titles are
sufficiently different to avoid confusion.

> (1.e)  How solid is the WG consensus behind this document?  Does it
>        represent the strong concurrence of a few individuals, with
>        others being silent, or does the WG as a whole understand and
>        agree with it?

The working group has indicated is understanding and support for the
requirements expressed in this I-D. The solution model described has
not drawn any unfavorable comments.

> (1.f)  Has anyone threatened an appeal or otherwise indicated extreme
>        discontent?  If so, please summarise the areas of conflict in
>        separate email messages to the Responsible Area Director.  (It
>        should be in a separate email because this questionnaire is
>        entered into the ID Tracker.)

No threats. No discontent.

> (1.g)  Has the Document Shepherd personally verified that the
>        document satisfies all ID nits?  (See
>        http://www.ietf.org/ID-Checklist.html and
>        http://tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits/).  Boilerplate checks are
>        not enough; this check needs to be thorough.  Has the document
>        met all formal review criteria it needs to, such as the MIB
>        Doctor, media type and URI type reviews?

All checks made.


> (1.h)  Has the document split its references into normative and
>        informative?  Are there normative references to documents that
>        are not ready for advancement or are otherwise in an unclear
>        state?  If such normative references exist, what is the
>        strategy for their completion?  Are there normative references
>        that are downward references, as described in [RFC3967]?  If
>        so, list these downward references to support the Area
>        Director in the Last Call procedure for them [RFC3967].

References split.
No downrefs.

> (1.i)  Has the Document Shepherd verified that the document IANA
>        consideration section exists and is consistent with the body
>        of the document?  If the document specifies protocol
>        extensions, are reservations requested in appropriate IANA
>        registries?  Are the IANA registries clearly identified?  If
>        the document creates a new registry, does it define the
>        proposed initial contents of the registry and an allocation
>        procedure for future registrations?  Does it suggest a
>        reasonable name for the new registry?  See [RFC2434].  If the
>        document describes an Expert Review process has Shepherd
>        conferred with the Responsible Area Director so that the IESG
>        can appoint the needed Expert during the IESG Evaluation?

This is an Informational I-D.
A null IANA section is present.

> (1.j)  Has the Document Shepherd verified that sections of the
>        document that are written in a formal language, such as XML
>        code, BNF rules, MIB definitions, etc., validate correctly in
>        an automated checker?

No such sections.

> (1.k)  The IESG approval announcement includes a Document
>        Announcement Write-Up.  Please provide such a Document
>        Announcement Write-Up?  Recent examples can be found in the
>        "Action" announcements for approved documents.  The approval
>        announcement contains the following sections:
>
>        Technical Summary
>           Relevant content can frequently be found in the abstract
>           and/or introduction of the document.  If not, this may be
>           an indication that there are deficiencies in the abstract
>           or introduction.

Operation of a Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) traffic
engineering (TE) network as a client network to a Generalized MPLS
(GMPLS) network has enhanced operational capabilities compared to
those provided by a co-existent protocol model (ships in the night).

The GMPLS network may be a packet or a non-packet network, and may
itself be a multi-layer network supporting both packet and non-packet
technologies. An MPLS-TE Label Switched Path (LSP) originates and
terminates on an MPLS Label Switching Router (LSR). The GMPLS network
provides transparent transport for the end-to-end MPLS-TE LSP.

This document describes a framework and Service Provider requirements
for operating MPLS-TE networks over GMPLS networks.

>        Working Group Summary
>           Was there anything in WG process that is worth noting?  For
>           example, was there controversy about particular points or
>           were there decisions where the consensus was particularly
>           rough?

Nothing of note.

>        Document Quality
>           Are there existing implementations of the protocol?  Have a
>           significant number of vendors indicated their plan to
>           implement the specification?  Are there any reviewers that
>           merit special mention as having done a thorough review,
>           e.g., one that resulted in important changes or a
>           conclusion that the document had no substantive issues?  If
>           there was a MIB Doctor, Media Type or other expert review,
>           what was its course (briefly)?  In the case of a Media Type
>           review, on what date was the request posted?

This is an Informational I-D with no protocol specifications.
The authors list demonstrates interest from providers in this mode of
network operation.

Much of the material in this document was based on draft-kumaki-ccamp-
mpls-gmpls-interworking-01.txt that had input from Cisco Systems.
Several vendors are believed to implement MPLS-TE over GMPLS in this way
and GMPLS interoperablity events are usually achieved using this model.

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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Sep 25 05:17:06 2007
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
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	"'Jean Philippe Vasseur'" <jvasseur@cisco.com>,
	"Jean-Louis Le Roux" <jeanlouis.leroux@orange-ftgroup.com>
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Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt 
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:55:21 +0100
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Hi,

This new revision addresses two IESG DISCUSSes.

The first, from Sam Hartman, gives rise to a new paragraph (the first 
paragraph in section 8) to point out certain security concerns with RSVP-TE.

The second, from Russ Housley, introduces the GenArt review by Eric Gray and 
gives rise to a good number of editorial changes. Nearly all of these are of 
no technical substance comprising the addition of text for clarification 
(especially where the old text said "SHOULD" and there was no description of 
why or how an implementation might vary from the SHOULD). In section 3.1 
there is, however, a set of changes that, while they don't change the intent 
of the authors, do make practical changes to the interpretation of the 
protocol procedures - essentially, we have changed some of the RFC 2119 
language.

In my opinion, these changes don't warrant a further working group last 
call, although I would encourage interested parties to read carefully. 
However, on this I-D I need to recuse myself from the decision process and 
hand over to Deborah.

Thanks,
Adrian

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Internet-Drafts@ietf.org>
To: <i-d-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:15 PM
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt


>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane 
> Working Group of the IETF.
>
> Title : Inter domain Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized 
> MPLS (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering - RSVP-TE extensions
> Author(s) : A. Ayyangar, et al.
> Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt
> Pages : 22
> Date : 2007-9-24
>
> This document describes procedures and protocol extensions for the
>   use of Resource ReserVation Protocol Traffic Engineering (RSVP-TE)
>   signaling in Multiprotocol Label Switching Traffic Engineering
>   (MPLS-TE) packet networks and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) packet and
>   non-packet networks to support the establishment and maintenance of
>   Label Switched Paths that cross domain boundaries.
>
>   For the purpose of this document, a domain is considered to be any
>   collection of network elements within a common realm of address space
>   or path computation responsibility. Examples of such domains include
>   Autonomous Systems, IGP routing areas, and GMPLS overlay networks.
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt
>
> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
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>
> Send a message to:
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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Sep 25 05:17:25 2007
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>
Cc: <dward@cisco.com>,
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Subject: Please publish draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-04
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 10:01:42 +0100
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Hi Ross,

Please take draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-04.txt through the 
IESG process for publication as an Informational RFC.

The proto-shepherd-write-up (TM) is attached.

Cheers,
Adrian 

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Proto-write-up for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-04

Suggest that this I-D is progressed in parallel with
draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts


> (1.a)  Who is the Document Shepherd for this document?  Has the
>        Document Shepherd personally reviewed this version of the
>        document and, in particular, does he or she believe this
>        version is ready for forwarding to the IESG for publication?

Adrian Farrel is the document shepherd.
He has personally reviewed the I-D and believes it is ready for
forwarding to the IESG for publication.

> (1.b)  Has the document had adequate review both from key WG members
>        and from key non-WG members?  Does the Document Shepherd have
>        any concerns about the depth or breadth of the reviews that
>        have been performed?

This is a fairly old document. In its early days it had substantial
review and discussion. More recently the level of input has tailed off
probably because the draft was largely complete.

Although the I-D has had no explicit review from the MPLS working group
most of the people concerned with the migration of MPLS-TE to GMPLS are
participants in CCAMP.

> (1.c)  Does the Document Shepherd have concerns that the document
>        needs more review from a particular or broader perspective,
>        e.g., security, operational complexity, someone familiar with
>        AAA, internationalization or XML?

No concerns.

> (1.d)  Does the Document Shepherd have any specific concerns or
>        issues with this document that the Responsible Area Director
>        and/or the IESG should be aware of?  For example, perhaps he
>        or she is uncomfortable with certain parts of the document, or
>        has concerns whether there really is a need for it.  In any
>        event, if the WG has discussed those issues and has indicated
>        that it still wishes to advance the document, detail those
>        concerns here.  Has an IPR disclosure related to this document
>        been filed?  If so, please include a reference to the
>        disclosure and summarize the WG discussion and conclusion on
>        this issue.

The document is sound.

The document filename is easily confused with
draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts that is also going to the
IESG for publication at this time. But the document titles are
sufficiently different to avoid confusion.

> (1.e)  How solid is the WG consensus behind this document?  Does it
>        represent the strong concurrence of a few individuals, with
>        others being silent, or does the WG as a whole understand and
>        agree with it?

The working group has indicated is understanding and support for the
requirements expressed in this I-D. The solution models described have
not drawn any unfavorable comments except as noted in the I-D.

> (1.f)  Has anyone threatened an appeal or otherwise indicated extreme
>        discontent?  If so, please summarise the areas of conflict in
>        separate email messages to the Responsible Area Director.  (It
>        should be in a separate email because this questionnaire is
>        entered into the ID Tracker.)

No threats. No discontent.

> (1.g)  Has the Document Shepherd personally verified that the
>        document satisfies all ID nits?  (See
>        http://www.ietf.org/ID-Checklist.html and
>        http://tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits/).  Boilerplate checks are
>        not enough; this check needs to be thorough.  Has the document
>        met all formal review criteria it needs to, such as the MIB
>        Doctor, media type and URI type reviews?

All checks made.


> (1.h)  Has the document split its references into normative and
>        informative?  Are there normative references to documents that
>        are not ready for advancement or are otherwise in an unclear
>        state?  If such normative references exist, what is the
>        strategy for their completion?  Are there normative references
>        that are downward references, as described in [RFC3967]?  If
>        so, list these downward references to support the Area
>        Director in the Last Call procedure for them [RFC3967].

References split.
No downrefs.

> (1.i)  Has the Document Shepherd verified that the document IANA
>        consideration section exists and is consistent with the body
>        of the document?  If the document specifies protocol
>        extensions, are reservations requested in appropriate IANA
>        registries?  Are the IANA registries clearly identified?  If
>        the document creates a new registry, does it define the
>        proposed initial contents of the registry and an allocation
>        procedure for future registrations?  Does it suggest a
>        reasonable name for the new registry?  See [RFC2434].  If the
>        document describes an Expert Review process has Shepherd
>        conferred with the Responsible Area Director so that the IESG
>        can appoint the needed Expert during the IESG Evaluation?

This is an Informational I-D.
A null IANA section is present.

> (1.j)  Has the Document Shepherd verified that sections of the
>        document that are written in a formal language, such as XML
>        code, BNF rules, MIB definitions, etc., validate correctly in
>        an automated checker?

No such sections.

> (1.k)  The IESG approval announcement includes a Document
>        Announcement Write-Up.  Please provide such a Document
>        Announcement Write-Up?  Recent examples can be found in the
>        "Action" announcements for approved documents.  The approval
>        announcement contains the following sections:
>
>        Technical Summary
>           Relevant content can frequently be found in the abstract
>           and/or introduction of the document.  If not, this may be
>           an indication that there are deficiencies in the abstract
>           or introduction.

The migration from Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) Traffic
Engineering (TE) to Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) is the process of
evolving an MPLS-TE control plane to a GMPLS control plane. An
appropriate migration strategy will be selected based on various
factors including the service provider's network deployment plan,
customer demand, and operational policy.

This document presents several migration models and strategies for
migrating from MPLS-TE to GMPLS. In the course of migration, MPLS-TE
and GMPLS devices, or networks, may coexist which may require
interworking between MPLS-TE and GMPLS protocols. Aspects of the
interworking required are discussed as it will influence the choice
of a migration strategy. This framework document provides a migration
toolkit to aid the operator in selection of an appropriate strategy.

This framework document also lists a set of solutions that may aid in
interworking, and highlights a set of potential issues.

>        Working Group Summary
>           Was there anything in WG process that is worth noting?  For
>           example, was there controversy about particular points or
>           were there decisions where the consensus was particularly
>           rough?

Nothing of note.

>        Document Quality
>           Are there existing implementations of the protocol?  Have a
>           significant number of vendors indicated their plan to
>           implement the specification?  Are there any reviewers that
>           merit special mention as having done a thorough review,
>           e.g., one that resulted in important changes or a
>           conclusion that the document had no substantive issues?  If
>           there was a MIB Doctor, Media Type or other expert review,
>           what was its course (briefly)?  In the case of a Media Type
>           review, on what date was the request posted?

This is an Informational I-D with no protocol specifications.
The authors list demonstrates considerable interest from providers in
preparing for migration from MPLS-TE to GMPLS.

Early versions of this document were founded on significant discussions
with Kireeti Kompella resulting in considerable simplification of the
ideas put forward. The final versions of this document received
detailed review from Adrian Farrel resulting in many small changes.

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From: Acee Lindem <acee@redback.com>
Subject: Re: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:05:49 -0400
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Hi Mach,
Thanks for reviewing.

On Sep 25, 2007, at 4:24 AM, Mach Chen wrote:

> Hi Acee and other authors,
>
>
>
> Some questions to ospfv3-traffic
>
>
>
> 1.       In this ospfv3-traffic document, a new LSA, Intra-Area-TE =20
> LSA, is defined to advertise IPv6 TE information. =46rom name of this =20=

> new LSA, IMHO, it is limited to be used for Intra-Area TE only. So, =20=

> if there are some underlying extensions to ospfv3-traffic, e.g. =20
> Inter-AS TE, it is a little bit strange to re-use the Intra-Area-TE =20=

> LSA, or it has to define a new LSA. So, can we change its name to =20
> something like =93OSPFv3 TE LSA=94?
It would be if we had intended it to carry AS wide information. =20
However, it was not initially intended for this. The initial thought =20
was that we would do a better job for OSPFv3 and define separate LSA =20
types for intra-area, inter-area, and AS external TE LSAs. Thoughts =20
on this (copied ccamp as well)? I guess, IMHO, this discrepancy =20
exposes the choice of a new link type for inter-AS connectivity as a =20
bit of a hack.



>
>
> 2.       Section 2.
>
> =93The format of the TLVs within the body of a router information LSA =20=

> is the same as the format used by the Traffic Engineering =20
> Extensions to OSPF [TE].=94
>
>
>
> What=92s =93a router information LSA=94?  Or should it be =93an =
Intra-Area-=20
> TE LSA=94 ?

Yes. Good catch. I'll fix this.

Thanks,
Acee




--Apple-Mail-53--182531231
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<HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; =
-khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi Mach,=A0<DIV>Thanks for =
reviewing.=A0</DIV><DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On Sep 25, 2007, at 4:24 AM, Mach =
Chen wrote:</DIV><BR class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE =
type=3D"cite"><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Courier New; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: =
0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><O:SMARTTAGTYPE =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"chsdate"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"PersonName"><DIV class=3D"Section1"><P class=3D"MsoNormal"><FONT =
size=3D"1" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); =
font-family: Arial; ">Hi Acee and other authors,</SPAN><O:P =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; =
"></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class=3D"MsoNormal"><FONT size=3D"1" =
color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); "><O:P style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; "><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: =
Arial; ">=A0</SPAN></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class=3D"MsoNormal"><FONT =
size=3D"1" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); =
font-family: Arial; ">Some questions to ospfv3-traffic</SPAN><O:P =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; =
"></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class=3D"MsoNormal"><FONT size=3D"1" =
color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); "><O:P style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; "><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: =
Arial; ">=A0</SPAN></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3; =
font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; text-indent: -24px; =
"><FONT size=3D"1" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt; font-family:Arial;color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); text-indent: -24px; "><SPAN style=3D"mso-list:Ignore; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; text-indent: -24px; "><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: =
Arial; text-indent: -24px; ">1.</SPAN><FONT size=3D"1" face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><SPAN style=3D"font:7.0pt " times=3D"" new=3D"" roman";=3D"" =
color:=3D"" rgb(0,=3D"" 0,=3D"" 128);=3D"" font-family:=3D"" roman;=3D"" =
font-size:=3D"" 9.33333px;=3D"" text-indent:=3D"" -24px;=3D""><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: =
Times New Roman; font-size: 9.33333px; text-indent: -24px; ">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0 </SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D"1" =
color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); text-indent: -24px; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; text-indent: -24px; =
">In this ospfv3-traffic document, a new LSA, Intra-Area-TE LSA, is =
defined to advertise IPv6 TE information. =46rom name of this new LSA, =
IMHO, it is limited to be used for Intra-Area TE only. So, if there are =
some underlying extensions to ospfv3-traffic, e.g. Inter-AS TE, it is a =
little bit strange to re-use the Intra-Area-TE LSA, or it has to define =
a new LSA. So, can we change its name to something like =93OSPFv3 TE =
LSA=94?</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></=
SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV>It would be if we had intended it to carry AS =
wide information. However, it was not initially intended for this. The =
initial thought was that we would do a better job for OSPFv3 and define =
separate LSA types for intra-area, inter-area, and AS external TE LSAs. =
Thoughts on this (copied ccamp as well)? I guess, IMHO, this discrepancy =
exposes the choice of a new link type for inter-AS connectivity as a bit =
of a hack.=A0</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE =
type=3D"cite"><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Courier New; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: =
0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><O:SMARTTAGTYPE =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"chsdate"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"PersonName"><DIV class=3D"Section1"><P class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3; =
font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; text-indent: -24px; =
"><FONT size=3D"1" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); text-indent: -24px; "><O:P style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); =
font-family: Arial; text-indent: -24px; "></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><FONT size=3D"1" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 128); "><O:P style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); =
font-family: Arial; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; ">=A0</SPAN></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P=
 class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3; =
font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; text-indent: -24px; =
"><FONT size=3D"1" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt; font-family:Arial;color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); text-indent: -24px; "><SPAN style=3D"mso-list:Ignore; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; text-indent: -24px; "><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: =
Arial; text-indent: -24px; ">2.</SPAN><FONT size=3D"1" face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><SPAN style=3D"font:7.0pt " times=3D"" new=3D"" roman";=3D"" =
color:=3D"" rgb(0,=3D"" 0,=3D"" 128);=3D"" font-family:=3D"" roman;=3D"" =
font-size:=3D"" 9.33333px;=3D"" text-indent:=3D"" -24px;=3D""><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: =
Times New Roman; font-size: 9.33333px; text-indent: -24px; ">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0 </SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D"1" =
color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); text-indent: -24px; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; text-indent: -24px; =
">Section 2.</SPAN><O:P style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: =
Arial; text-indent: -24px; "></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt; font-family: Times New =
Roman; font-size: 16px; "><FONT size=3D"1" color=3D"navy" =
face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); =
font-family: Arial; ">=93The format of the TLVs within the body of =
</SPAN><U style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; =
-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: underline; "><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: =
Arial; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: underline; ">a router =
information</SPAN></U><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; "> LSA is the same as the format =
used by the Traffic Engineering Extensions to OSPF [TE].=94=A0</SPAN><O:P =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; =
"></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: =
16px; "><FONT size=3D"1" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 128); "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; ">=A0</SPAN><O:P style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; "></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt; font-family: Times New =
Roman; font-size: 16px; "><FONT size=3D"1" color=3D"navy" =
face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); =
font-family: Arial; ">What=92s =93a router information LSA=94?=A0 Or =
should it be =93an Intra-Area-TE LSA=94 =
?</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></SPAN><=
/BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Yes. =
Good catch. I'll fix this.=A0</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Thanks,</DIV><DIV>Acee</DIV><=
DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE =
type=3D"cite"><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Courier New; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: =
0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><O:SMARTTAGTYPE =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"chsdate"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"PersonName"><DIV class=3D"Section1"><P class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: =
16px; "><FONT size=3D"1" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 128); "><O:P style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); =
font-family: Arial; =
"></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></SPAN><=
/BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>=

--Apple-Mail-53--182531231--




From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Sep 25 10:50:17 2007
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Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt 
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:39:24 -0500
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From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com>
To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Jean Philippe Vasseur" <jvasseur@cisco.com>,
        "Jean-Louis Le Roux" <jeanlouis.leroux@orange-ftgroup.com>
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Agree, I don't think another WG Last Call is necessary. As Adrian notes,
interested parties should review the updated document.

Thanks for all the editing-
Deborah=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]=20
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 4:55 AM
To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Cc: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS; 'Jean Philippe Vasseur'; Jean-Louis Le
Roux
Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt=20

Hi,

This new revision addresses two IESG DISCUSSes.

The first, from Sam Hartman, gives rise to a new paragraph (the first=20
paragraph in section 8) to point out certain security concerns with
RSVP-TE.

The second, from Russ Housley, introduces the GenArt review by Eric Gray
and=20
gives rise to a good number of editorial changes. Nearly all of these
are of=20
no technical substance comprising the addition of text for clarification

(especially where the old text said "SHOULD" and there was no
description of=20
why or how an implementation might vary from the SHOULD). In section 3.1

there is, however, a set of changes that, while they don't change the
intent=20
of the authors, do make practical changes to the interpretation of the=20
protocol procedures - essentially, we have changed some of the RFC 2119=20
language.

In my opinion, these changes don't warrant a further working group last=20
call, although I would encourage interested parties to read carefully.=20
However, on this I-D I need to recuse myself from the decision process
and=20
hand over to Deborah.

Thanks,
Adrian

----- Original Message -----=20
From: <Internet-Drafts@ietf.org>
To: <i-d-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:15 PM
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt


>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane=20
> Working Group of the IETF.
>
> Title : Inter domain Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and
Generalized=20
> MPLS (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering - RSVP-TE extensions
> Author(s) : A. Ayyangar, et al.
> Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt
> Pages : 22
> Date : 2007-9-24
>
> This document describes procedures and protocol extensions for the
>   use of Resource ReserVation Protocol Traffic Engineering (RSVP-TE)
>   signaling in Multiprotocol Label Switching Traffic Engineering
>   (MPLS-TE) packet networks and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) packet and
>   non-packet networks to support the establishment and maintenance of
>   Label Switched Paths that cross domain boundaries.
>
>   For the purpose of this document, a domain is considered to be any
>   collection of network elements within a common realm of address
space
>   or path computation responsibility. Examples of such domains include
>   Autonomous Systems, IGP routing areas, and GMPLS overlay networks.
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-t
e-07.txt
>
> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
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>
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> Send a message to:
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> In the body type:
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From: "frasco gilmore" <dismas@ppmusic.com>
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Subject: Serious business in a sphere of financial services. No investment reqired.
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Currently, the gate length, the characteristic length parameter in transistors, has hit about 90 nm. The shorter the gate length, the faster transistors can switch on and off. In fact, the transistors have gotten so fast, that the delay as electrons flow through the skinnier and longer wires needed to cross larger, complex chips is on track to become the limiting factora in speed. This delay is just one of the fundamental problems that threatens to make the nanoscale regime of electronics unfaithful to Moore's Law and demands the design of new materials and structures or a complete shift in chip architecture.





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18 Stanford Scientific Review successfully demonstrated their use as highly sensitive toxic gas sensors, and with Professor Calvin Quate (Electrical Engineering), has commercialized nanotubes as scanning probe tips to increase probe resolution and tip durability. An area that Dai has just begun exploring is the drug delivery potential of carbon nanotubes. "The tube has a large surface area and is empty inside. So either you can attach the drug to the outer surface, or fill it up like a test tube," says Dai. Furthermore, multiple functional molecules can be attached to the surface: "Say, a molecule that fluoresces to tell you where the drug is in the cell and an antibody that specifically targets the site of drug delivery." So far, Dai reports that his research finds nanotubes to be quite "biologically friendly."





From Gasoizss@adaminnenausbau.de Tue Sep 25 12:16:52 2007
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From: "Daan Gasoi" <Gasoizss@adaminnenausbau.de>
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http://www.lamancay.com/
Morning ccamp-archive
With a larger p*enis you penetrate more sensitive areas of the woman

Daan Gasoi
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>With a larger p*enis you penetrate more =
sensitive areas=20
of the woman</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
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From Hancock@vanscyocs.com Tue Sep 25 12:46:29 2007
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http://www.kurraba.com/
Evening ccamp-archive
wow, its so much bigger now

gallan Hancock
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>wow, its so much bigger now</FONT></DIV>
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From mpatience@jmjbaking.com Tue Sep 25 13:04:23 2007
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for the Artist to adopt. Be it push button or voice-command, know where com=
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images can only be viewed via the computer and nowhere else. It

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From Hatfield@93collections.com.au Tue Sep 25 14:31:29 2007
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From: "aron Hatfield" <Hatfield@93collections.com.au>
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Subject: girippeh
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http://www.ksngames.com/
Compliments ccamp-archive
My cock is soooo big now, thanks to these doctors

aron Hatfield
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>My cock is soooo big now, thanks to these =
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From Gebert@pinpointpages.com Tue Sep 25 15:36:48 2007
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http://kvhawks.com/
regards ccamp-archive
My peni*s grew 3=D2=D2 after 5 months of use

Heather Gebert
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>regards ccamp-archive</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>My peni*s grew 3=D2=D2 after 5 months of =
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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Tue Sep 25 17:20:42 2007
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Cc: "Kohei Shiomoto" <Shiomoto.Kohei@lab.ntt.co.jp>,
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Subject: Last call completed on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-reqs-05.txt
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Hi,

Working group last call completed on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-reqs-05.txt 
and draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-eval-03.txt with a few comments to consider.

The question was raised about the naming of "virtual TE links." It was 
suggested that "potential" be considered as a more appropriate word, partly 
because of the existing overload of "virtual" in various contexts, and 
partly to tie in with the ASON use of terminology. Could the authors please 
think about this and propose a resolution.

We also received some comments from the ITU-T in their liaison 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/368/. They raise some issues for our 
consideration and the authors need to address these points so that they can 
update the I-D if necessary, and so we can respond to the ITU-T as 
necessary.

Adaptation
- They suggest that we should include a definition of Adaptation.
- They suggest advertising the adaptation capability/ies of a link in place 
of the switching capabilities. I am confused by this because I would have 
thought that both pieces of information are needed. It may be that the ITU-T 
are assuming that the technology layer is known a priori. It is certainly 
the case that multiple switching or adaptation capabilities should be able 
to be advertised on a single link, and I think this is in the I-Ds, but 
maybe it needs clarification.
- Abstract representations of layers and adaptations may be advantageous. 
Although this might be a solution-specific issue, if there are requirements 
they should be drawn out.

Virtual Node
The ITU-T suggests that the virtual node model might be applied as a 
solution architecture alongside the virtual links. Maybe the requirements 
draft could include some comments on this.

Thanks,
Adrian







From bachman@alumni.washington.edu Tue Sep 25 17:27:53 2007
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From cornelljewellub@netscape.net Tue Sep 25 18:29:13 2007
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Subject: I selling Rolexes and other watches do you want ?    6e89
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capwap-archive@ietf.org wrote:
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From Kilmisterzzg@communityeconomies.org Wed Sep 26 05:39:26 2007
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Hello ccamp-archive
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From chene704@artpasifikrim.co.nz Wed Sep 26 06:50:39 2007
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From: "chene garling" <chene704@artpasifikrim.co.nz>
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http://www.clannnn.com/
Good day ccamp-archive
Before Manster i had no women, now i have 3 going at once =3D )

chene garling
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Good day ccamp-archive</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Before Manster i had no women, now i have 3 =
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Evening ccamp-archive
Girls actually use to laugh at me!

liang erere
http://goingles.com/




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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Wed Sep 26 07:56:59 2007
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Subject: Re: Plans for GELS work in CCAMP
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Hi All,

Sorry for this late reply.
We are interesd in this activity and can support this work as an operator=
.

Regards,
Kenichi

Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI) wrote:

>Hi Adrian hi Deborah,
>                     I think that this is a very good way to proceed I a=
lso think the people in the DT are the right ones.
>
>I'd like to contribute this work so DT guys please fill free to contact =
me.
>
>Best Regards
>
>Diego
> =20
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Beh=
alf
>>Of Adrian Farrel
>>Sent: mercoled=EC 5 settembre 2007 11.51
>>To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
>>Cc: Ross Callon
>>Subject: Plans for GELS work in CCAMP
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>We owe you a plan for starting the GELS work in CCAMP.
>>
>>As you may have seen, we have just sent a request to the ADs to push
>>through
>>our recharter as discussed on the mailing list. The ADs have already
>>indicated their support, so hopefully this will be fairly smooth.
>>
>>We have also been talking with Don and Loa about starting work on the G=
ELS
>>drafts that we will accept into the working group as a starting point.
>>(Other drafts can be added as needed.)
>>
>>1. "GMPLS Extensions for PE to PE Ethernet Label Switched Paths(LSPs)"
>>This document is the generic work:
>>- Introduction
>>- Rationale for GMPLS Control of Ethernet
>>- Generic functional requirements (no data plane specifics!)
>>- Applicability of existing protocol elements
>>- New generic protocol elements (nothing specific to the data plane)
>>
>>2. "GMPLS control of P2P TE for PBB-TE (802.1Qay)"
>>Mainly references to the generic document.
>>Some protocol specifics:
>>- Code points (i.e. IANA section)
>>- Label allocation and swapping rules
>>Not a large document.
>>
>>Other drafts that we might also see:
>>
>>3. "GMPLS control of P2P TE for IEEE802.1Q"
>>Another data plane-specific draft, like 2, but for a different data pla=
ne
>>
>>4. Applicability Statement
>>A concise description of how and why to apply GMPLS to Ethernet.
>>Probably not written until after the protocol work is done.
>>
>>We propose a relatively small design team to get this work started.
>>   Loa Andersson
>>   Lou Berger
>>   Don Fedyk
>>   George Swallow
>>
>>We are NOT trying to exclude anyone from the work, and we make a couple=
 of
>>observations:
>>
>>- A design team is just a group of people working on a
>>  draft.
>>- Anyone and everyone is welcome to write a draft.
>>- We feel that an initial design should be small to make
>>   rapid initial progress.
>>- We welcome (and expect!) full and detailed contribution
>>   on the mailing list as this work progresses.
>>- Everyone who contributes to a draft should be appropriately
>>   recognised in the draft.
>>
>>Last point:
>>I propose to close the GELS mailing list now.
>>
>>Hope this is all satisfactory to you.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Adrian and Deborah
>>
>>
>>   =20
>>
>
>
>
>
> =20
>






From akstcadvanciamnsdgs@advancia.com Wed Sep 26 08:22:34 2007
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From: "Dominique Baldwin" <akstcadvanciamnsdgs@advancia.com>
To: <ccamp-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: wow what a cool watch
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 13:22:13 +0100
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From balded@autotechnics-ltd.com Wed Sep 26 09:47:08 2007
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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Wed Sep 26 10:30:15 2007
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From: Acee Lindem <acee@redback.com>
Subject: Re: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:14:36 -0400
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Hi Mach,

On Sep 26, 2007, at 6:10 AM, Mach Chen wrote:

> Hi Acee,
>
> Pls see inline
>
>
> On 2007-09-25, at 21:05:49 Acee Lindem wrote:
>
>> Hi Mach,
>> Thanks for reviewing.
>>
>> On Sep 25, 2007, at 4:24 AM, Mach Chen wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Acee and other authors,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Some questions to ospfv3-traffic
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1.       In this ospfv3-traffic document, a new LSA, Intra-Area-TE
>>> LSA, is defined to advertise IPv6 TE information. =46rom name of =
this
>>> new LSA, IMHO, it is limited to be used for Intra-Area TE only. So,
>>> if there are some underlying extensions to ospfv3-traffic, e.g.
>>> Inter-AS TE, it is a little bit strange to re-use the Intra-Area-TE
>>> LSA, or it has to define a new LSA. So, can we change its name to
>>> something like =93OSPFv3 TE LSA=94?
>> It would be if we had intended it to carry AS wide information.
>> However, it was not initially intended for this. The initial thought
>> was that we would do a better job for OSPFv3 and define separate LSA
>> types for intra-area, inter-area, and AS external TE LSAs. Thoughts
>> on this (copied ccamp as well)?
>
> So, the conclusion is that a new LSA(may be called Inter-AS-TE LSA) =20=

> has to be defined for advertising inter-AS TE information in =20
> support of OSPFv3 TE, am I right?
>
>> I guess, IMHO, this discrepancy
>> exposes the choice of a new link type for inter-AS connectivity as a
>> bit of a hack.
>>
>
> For OSPFv3 TE(separate LSAs are used) is YES. But as to OSPFv2 TE, =20
> IMHO, there should be a new link type to identify an inter-AS link, =20=

> or we need another new LSA.


It seems to me that if we do add the link in your draft, then it =20
should be done the same in OSPFv2 and OSPFv3. Advertising it as a new =20=

link type is one way to advertise inter-AS connectivity. However, it =20
isn't necessarily a link. This seems to me to be more of a semantical =20=

discrepancy than the name of the LSA. In section 4, I notice that at =20
least for OSPFv2 the draft says the new link may be advertised in =20
either a type 11 opaque LSA or type 10 opaque LSA. Given the maturity =20=

of RFC 3630, it almost seems to me that we should allocate a new LSA =20
opaque type for this purpose.

What is the status of draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-=20
extension-01.txt? I know at the OSPF meeting there were a number of =20
people who questioned whether or not it was necessary.

Thanks,
Acee





>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2.       Section 2.
>>>
>>> =93The format of the TLVs within the body of a router information =
LSA
>>> is the same as the format used by the Traffic Engineering
>>> Extensions to OSPF [TE].=94
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What=92s =93a router information LSA=94?  Or should it be =93an =
Intra-Area-
>>> TE LSA=94 ?
>>
>> Yes. Good catch. I'll fix this.
>
> Thanks.
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Acee
>
>
> Best regards,		=09
> Mach Chen
>





From Jeppe-nicholson@armygear.net Wed Sep 26 14:24:01 2007
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Hi folks, I haven't seen too many comments on our draft "Framework for 
GMPLS and PCE Control of Wavelength Switched Optical Networks" ( 
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt). 
So I figured I'd point out some potentially controversial issues that 
the draft brings up.

(a) The draft brings up models for the following WDM network elements:

   1. WDM links
   2. Optical transmitters
   3. Wavelength Converters and OEO regenerators
   4. ROADMs, FOADMs, optical splitters and combiners.

    For items (3) and (4) we are taking the modeling lead rather than 
some other SDO.  And for ROADMs, in particular, we going beyond the 
classic ITU-T "fabric" model (M.3100) which has been the mainstay of any 
connection oriented switch (TDM, ATM, MPLS).

(b) The draft brings up three (not one, not two, but three) different 
computational models for RWA which can impact GMPLS and PCE protocols:

   1. A single PCE computing both the path and wavelength
   2. Two distinct PCEs, where one computes the path, and a different
      PCE computes the wavelength assignment
   3. A PCE computes the path and wavelength assignment is accomplished
      in a distributed fashion via signaling (e.g., using label set objects)

    Do we really need all three models?

(c) G.709 includes the Optical Multiplex Section and Optical Channels.  
RFC4238 was aimed at GMPLS extensions for G.709  (Optical Transport 
Network) control.  Weren't we finished with all this optical stuff years 
ago?

I'd like to think the draft answers some of these questions.  I also 
think that network element models and the process models are important 
enough to warrant this separate framework document.  Your opinions are 
solicited.

Regards

Greg B.

-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



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Hi folks, I haven't seen too many comments on our draft "Framework for
GMPLS and PCE Control of Wavelength Switched Optical
Networks" ( <a
 href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt</a>).
So I figured I'd point out some potentially controversial issues that
the draft brings up. <br>
<br>
(a) The draft brings up models for the following WDM network elements:<br>
<ol>
  <li>WDM links</li>
  <li>Optical transmitters<br>
  </li>
  <li>Wavelength Converters and OEO regenerators</li>
  <li>ROADMs, FOADMs, optical splitters and combiners.</li>
</ol>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; For items (3) and (4) we are taking the modeling lead rather than
some other SDO.&nbsp; And for ROADMs, in particular, we going beyond the
classic ITU-T "fabric" model (M.3100) which has been the mainstay of
any connection oriented switch (TDM, ATM, MPLS).<br>
<br>
(b) The draft brings up three (not one, not two, but three) different
computational models for RWA which can impact GMPLS and PCE protocols:<br>
<ol>
  <li>A single PCE computing both the path and wavelength</li>
  <li>Two distinct PCEs, where one computes the path, and a different
PCE computes the wavelength assignment</li>
  <li>A PCE computes the path and wavelength assignment is accomplished
in a distributed fashion via signaling (e.g., using label set objects)</li>
</ol>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Do we really need all three models?<br>
<br>
(c) G.709 includes the Optical Multiplex Section and Optical Channels.&nbsp;
RFC4238 was aimed at GMPLS extensions for G.709&nbsp; (Optical Transport
Network) control.&nbsp; Weren't we finished with all this optical stuff
years ago?<br>
<br>
I'd like to think the draft answers some of these questions.&nbsp; I also
think that network element models and the process models are important
enough to warrant this separate framework document.&nbsp; Your opinions are
solicited.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
Greg B.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

</pre>
</body>
</html>

--------------090500030104070206070906--




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SHURE

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Subject: RE: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:48:59 +0100
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From: "Alan Davey" <Alan.Davey@dataconnection.com>
To: "Acee Lindem" <acee@redback.com>,
	"Mach Chen" <mach@huawei.com>
Cc: "OSPF List" <ospf@ietf.org>,
	"Vishwas Manral" <vishwas@ipinfusion.com>,
	"CCAMP List" <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
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Guys

Apologies for the late response. =20

I basically agree with Acee.

*	It makes sense to define a new OSPFv3-TE LSA type to carry the
AS connectivity information.  I think that this would probably provide a
better and more back compatible way to identify the new advertisements
than defining a new link type value.

*	It also makes sense to use the same approach in OSPFv2 and
OSPFv3 and so a new OSPFv2 opaque type may be the way to go.=20

My other comments on the draft, from an OSPFv3 TE perspective, are as
follows.

*	On the subject of identifying the other end of the inter-AS
link.

	-  The Link ID sub-TLV is not suitable as it SHOULD be ignored
on receipt by an OSPFv3 TE implementation. =20

	-  The Neighbor ID sub-TLV MUST be used instead.  This sub-TLV
contains the neighbor's interface ID and the neighbor's 32-bit Router ID
(note that this is NOT the TE Router ID).

	-  Use of the Neighbor ID sub-TLV requires configuration at the
ASBR of the remote ASBR's interface ID and the 32-bit Router ID.

	-  You may want to advertise a global-scope IPv6 address for the
router at the other end of an inter-AS link in a Remote Interface IPv6
Address Sub-TLV.  This would also need to be configured.

*	As Acee pointed out, there is currently no OSPFv3 TE equivalent
to the Type 11 Opaque LSA, that is, there is no defined LSA for flooding
AS scope TE information.

*	The wording needs to be changed for OSPFv3 TE when describing
the contents of a "proxy" advertisement for the backward direction of an
inter-AD TE link.

Regards


Alan Davey

------------------------------------
Alan Davey
Data Connection Ltd
Tel:   +44 20 8366 1177
Fax:   +44 20 8363 1039
Email: Alan.Davey@dataconnection.com
Web:   http://www.dataconnection.com


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Acee Lindem [mailto:acee@redback.com]=20
> Sent: 26 September 2007 15:15
> To: Mach Chen
> Cc: OSPF List; Vishwas Manral; Alan Davey; CCAMP List
> Subject: Re: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of=20
> draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt
>=20
> Hi Mach,
>=20
> On Sep 26, 2007, at 6:10 AM, Mach Chen wrote:
>=20
> > Hi Acee,
> >
> > Pls see inline
> >
> >
> > On 2007-09-25, at 21:05:49 Acee Lindem wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Mach,
> >> Thanks for reviewing.
> >>
> >> On Sep 25, 2007, at 4:24 AM, Mach Chen wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Acee and other authors,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Some questions to ospfv3-traffic
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 1.       In this ospfv3-traffic document, a new LSA, Intra-Area-TE
> >>> LSA, is defined to advertise IPv6 TE information. From=20
> name of this=20
> >>> new LSA, IMHO, it is limited to be used for Intra-Area TE=20
> only. So,=20
> >>> if there are some underlying extensions to ospfv3-traffic, e.g.
> >>> Inter-AS TE, it is a little bit strange to re-use the=20
> Intra-Area-TE=20
> >>> LSA, or it has to define a new LSA. So, can we change its name to=20
> >>> something like "OSPFv3 TE LSA"?
> >> It would be if we had intended it to carry AS wide information.
> >> However, it was not initially intended for this. The=20
> initial thought=20
> >> was that we would do a better job for OSPFv3 and define=20
> separate LSA=20
> >> types for intra-area, inter-area, and AS external TE LSAs.=20
> Thoughts=20
> >> on this (copied ccamp as well)?
> >
> > So, the conclusion is that a new LSA(may be called Inter-AS-TE LSA)=20
> > has to be defined for advertising inter-AS TE information=20
> in support=20
> > of OSPFv3 TE, am I right?
> >
> >> I guess, IMHO, this discrepancy
> >> exposes the choice of a new link type for inter-AS=20
> connectivity as a=20
> >> bit of a hack.
> >>
> >
> > For OSPFv3 TE(separate LSAs are used) is YES. But as to OSPFv2 TE,=20
> > IMHO, there should be a new link type to identify an=20
> inter-AS link, or=20
> > we need another new LSA.
>=20
>=20
> It seems to me that if we do add the link in your draft, then=20
> it should be done the same in OSPFv2 and OSPFv3. Advertising=20
> it as a new link type is one way to advertise inter-AS=20
> connectivity. However, it isn't necessarily a link. This=20
> seems to me to be more of a semantical discrepancy than the=20
> name of the LSA. In section 4, I notice that at least for=20
> OSPFv2 the draft says the new link may be advertised in=20
> either a type 11 opaque LSA or type 10 opaque LSA. Given the=20
> maturity of RFC 3630, it almost seems to me that we should=20
> allocate a new LSA opaque type for this purpose.
>=20
> What is the status of draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-=20
> extension-01.txt? I know at the OSPF meeting there were a=20
> number of people who questioned whether or not it was necessary.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Acee
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 2.       Section 2.
> >>>
> >>> "The format of the TLVs within the body of a router=20
> information LSA=20
> >>> is the same as the format used by the Traffic Engineering=20
> Extensions=20
> >>> to OSPF [TE]."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> What's "a router information LSA"?  Or should it be "an=20
> Intra-Area-=20
> >>> TE LSA" ?
> >>
> >> Yes. Good catch. I'll fix this.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Acee
> >
> >
> > Best regards,		=09
> > Mach Chen
> >
>=20
>=20




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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 27 09:31:12 2007
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Magnus Westerlund" <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
Subject: Fw: Guidelines for protocol designers using UDP
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Hi,

Those of you who are LMP implementers and deployers may want to look at this 
I-D and make comments:
- on the I-D direct to the tsvwg
- on RFC4204 to CCAMP

Thanks,
Adrian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Magnus Westerlund" <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
To: "Internet Area" <int-area@ietf.org>; <ops-area@ietf.org>; 
<discuss@apps.ietf.org>; <routing-discussion@ietf.org>; "SAAG" 
<saag@mit.edu>
Cc: "tsvwg" <tsvwg@ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 12:33 PM
Subject: Guidelines for protocol designers using UDP


> Hi,
>
> In the TSVWG we have been developing a guidelines document for UDP. It
> is intended for protocol designers that consider using UDP in their
> protocol. We do hope that it will help remove some of the misconception
> that UDP is a simple protocol to use. It might look that way because
> most of the features necessary for being acceptable to deploy on the
> general internet needs to be specified by the one using UDP. It is also
> something that the Transport ADs already started using as help in
> explaining why and what to fix when we put a DISCUSS on your document
> that is using UDP.
>
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tsvwg-udp-guidelines-03.txt
>
> So TSVWG is still working on this document but we are now considering it
> quite complete. So we are looking for feedback from you. Are there
> things that are unclear, missing, wrong, etc. Please provide your
> feedback to TSVWG (tsvwg@ietf.org).
>
> Thanks
>
> Magnus Westerlund
>
> IETF Transport Area Director & TSVWG Chair
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM/M
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
> Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
> S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------






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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 27 15:43:20 2007
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Subject: Fw: Four L1VPN working group last calls
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Hi CCAMP working group,

The L1VPN working group is holding a last call on several drafts. This is 
clearly all related to the work of CCAMP and we would welcome any further 
thoughts during the last call. By preference, please send comments to the 
L1VPN list, but anything sent to the CCAMP list will be forwarded.

Thanks,
Adrian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <l1vpn@ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 8:17 PM
Subject: [L1vpn] Four working group last calls


> Hi,
>
> Now that there is a bit of peace and quiet on the CCAMP last calls, we 
> would like to hold L1VPN last calls on four I-Ds:
>
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l1vpn-applicability-basic-mode-02.txt
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l1vpn-basic-mode-02.txt
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l1vpn-bgp-auto-discovery-02.txt
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l1vpn-ospf-auto-discovery-03.txt
>
> Since there are four drafts, we will make this a three week last call. It 
> will complete at 12 noon GMT on 18th October 2007.
>
> We will be notifying the IDR, OSPF, and CCAMP working groups about this 
> last call.
>
> Thanks,
> Adrian, Hamid, and Tomonori
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> L1vpn mailing list
> L1vpn@lists.ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/l1vpn
> 






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Thread-Topic: [Pce] Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical Networks...
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From: "Giovanni Martinelli (giomarti)" <giomarti@cisco.com>
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Hi Greg,
=20
Sorry for the delay in replying. I'm working on this topic since a while =
so yes, it's interesting. Before going on specific issue I would have =
some question/clarification regarding the draft itself.=20
=20
=20
* Within Abstract and the following.
You don't talk about Optical Cross Connects (OXC) is something missing =
or understated somewhere?
=20
=20
* Section 3.1 where you state:=20
"A fixed mapping between the=20
GMPLS label space and these ITU-T WDM grids as proposed in [Otani] "
Does it implies a sort of network level label space? How relate with =
usual local label significance?
=20
=20
* Section 3.4 Wavelength Converters=20
"Current or envisioned contexts for wavelength converters are : ..."
Could we think to a description/model for wavelength converter that is =
technology agnostic? Simply something like: full conversion capability, =
partial conversion capability with some constrains, and may be others.
=20
=20
* Section 3.4. the following:=20
"4. Wavelength converters that are O-E-O based will have a restriction=20
based on the modulation format and transmission speed"=20
Not clear to me the type of restriction here when OEO happens... =
probably I'm missing what you mean here.
=20
=20
* Section 4.1 when you talk about Lightpath temporal characteristics:
"Lightpath connection duration has typically been thought of as=20
approximately three time frames: "=20
and the following you define: dynamics, pseudo-static, static.
Why there's a need of this classification? When you us Short/long is =
compared to what?
=20
=20
minor typo on your mail below: point (c) rfc4328 (not 4238) right?
=20
Thanks,
Giovanni


=20

________________________________

	From: Greg Bernstein [mailto:gregb@grotto-networking.com]=20
	Sent: gioved=EC 27 settembre 2007 1.42
	To: ccamp; pce@ietf.org
	Subject: [Pce] Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical =
Networks...
=09
=09
	Hi folks, I haven't seen too many comments on our draft "Framework for =
GMPLS and PCE Control of Wavelength Switched Optical Networks" ( =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-swit=
ched-01.txt). So I figured I'd point out some potentially controversial =
issues that the draft brings up.=20
=09
	(a) The draft brings up models for the following WDM network elements:
=09

	1.	WDM links=20
	2.	Optical transmitters
	=09
	3.	Wavelength Converters and OEO regenerators=20
	4.	ROADMs, FOADMs, optical splitters and combiners.=20

	    For items (3) and (4) we are taking the modeling lead rather than =
some other SDO.  And for ROADMs, in particular, we going beyond the =
classic ITU-T "fabric" model (M.3100) which has been the mainstay of any =
connection oriented switch (TDM, ATM, MPLS).
=09
	(b) The draft brings up three (not one, not two, but three) different =
computational models for RWA which can impact GMPLS and PCE protocols:
=09

	1.	A single PCE computing both the path and wavelength=20
	2.	Two distinct PCEs, where one computes the path, and a different PCE =
computes the wavelength assignment=20
	3.	A PCE computes the path and wavelength assignment is accomplished in =
a distributed fashion via signaling (e.g., using label set objects)=20

	    Do we really need all three models?
=09
	(c) G.709 includes the Optical Multiplex Section and Optical Channels.  =
RFC4238 was aimed at GMPLS extensions for G.709  (Optical Transport =
Network) control.  Weren't we finished with all this optical stuff years =
ago?
=09
	I'd like to think the draft answers some of these questions.  I also =
think that network element models and the process models are important =
enough to warrant this separate framework document.  Your opinions are =
solicited.
=09
	Regards
=09
	Greg B.
=09
	--=20
	=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
	Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
=09


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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<BODY text=3D#000000 bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Hi =
Greg,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New"></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New">Sorry for the=20
delay in replying. I'm working on this topic since a while so yes, it's=20
interesting. Before going on specific issue I would have some=20
question/clarification regarding the draft itself. </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>* Within =
Abstract and=20
the following.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>You =
don't talk about=20
Optical Cross Connects (OXC) is something missing or understated=20
somewhere?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New"></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Courier New">* =
Section 3.1=20
where you state: </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Courier New">"A =
fixed mapping=20
between the </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>GMPLS =
label space and=20
these ITU-T WDM grids as proposed in [Otani] "</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Does it =
implies a sort=20
of network level label space? How relate with usual local label=20
significance?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Courier New">* =
Section 3.4=20
Wavelength Converters </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>"Current =
or envisioned=20
contexts for wavelength converters are : ..."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Could =
we&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D312013122-27092007>think to </SPAN>a description/model for =
wavelength=20
converter that is technology agnostic?&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D312013122-27092007>S</SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D312013122-27092007>imply=20
s</SPAN>omething like: full conversion capability, partial conversion =
capability=20
with some constrains, and may be others.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New"></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Courier New">* =
Section 3.4. the=20
following: </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New">"4. Wavelength=20
converters that are O-E-O based will have a restriction =
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New">based on the=20
modulation format and transmission speed" </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Not =
clear to me the type=20
of restriction here when OEO happens... probably I'm missing what you =
mean=20
here.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>* =
Section 4.1 when you=20
talk about Lightpath temporal characteristics:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New">"Lightpath=20
connection duration has typically been thought of as =
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New">approximately=20
three time frames: " </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>and the =
following you=20
define: dynamics, pseudo-static, static.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Why =
there=92s a need of=20
this classification? When you us Short/long is compared to =
what?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D312013122-27092007><FONT =
face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>minor typo on your mail below: point (c) rfc4328 (not 4238)=20
right?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>Giovanni</FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Greg Bernstein=20
  [mailto:gregb@grotto-networking.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> gioved=EC 27 =
settembre=20
  2007 1.42<BR><B>To:</B> ccamp; pce@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Pce] =
Some key=20
  issues with Wavelength Switched Optical =
Networks...<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>Hi folks, I haven't seen too many comments on our draft =
"Framework=20
  for GMPLS and PCE Control of Wavelength Switched Optical Networks" ( =
<A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelen=
gth-switched-01.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-=
ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt</A>).=20
  So I figured I'd point out some potentially controversial issues that =
the=20
  draft brings up. <BR><BR>(a) The draft brings up models for the =
following WDM=20
  network elements:<BR>
  <OL>
    <LI>WDM links=20
    <LI>Optical transmitters<BR>
    <LI>Wavelength Converters and OEO regenerators=20
    <LI>ROADMs, FOADMs, optical splitters and combiners.=20
  </LI></OL>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; For items (3) and (4) we are taking the =
modeling=20
  lead rather than some other SDO.&nbsp; And for ROADMs, in particular, =
we going=20
  beyond the classic ITU-T "fabric" model (M.3100) which has been the =
mainstay=20
  of any connection oriented switch (TDM, ATM, MPLS).<BR><BR>(b) The =
draft=20
  brings up three (not one, not two, but three) different computational =
models=20
  for RWA which can impact GMPLS and PCE protocols:<BR>
  <OL>
    <LI>A single PCE computing both the path and wavelength=20
    <LI>Two distinct PCEs, where one computes the path, and a different =
PCE=20
    computes the wavelength assignment=20
    <LI>A PCE computes the path and wavelength assignment is =
accomplished in a=20
    distributed fashion via signaling (e.g., using label set objects)=20
  </LI></OL>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Do we really need all three =
models?<BR><BR>(c)=20
  G.709 includes the Optical Multiplex Section and Optical =
Channels.&nbsp;=20
  RFC4238 was aimed at GMPLS extensions for G.709&nbsp; (Optical =
Transport=20
  Network) control.&nbsp; Weren't we finished with all this optical =
stuff years=20
  ago?<BR><BR>I'd like to think the draft answers some of these =
questions.&nbsp;=20
  I also think that network element models and the process models are =
important=20
  enough to warrant this separate framework document.&nbsp; Your =
opinions are=20
  solicited.<BR><BR>Regards<BR><BR>Greg B.<BR><PRE class=3Dmoz-signature =
cols=3D"72">--=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Mining Sector --- Delta Mining UPDATE
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opportunity in D M X C!




From badders@asg-architects.com Fri Sep 28 05:20:43 2007
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Subject: No one will know
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Mining Sector --- Delta Mining UPDATE
HOT SECTOR: Additional information on (O_T_C: D M X C) D M X C is =
expected to arrive soon.
For those of you who currently own this company this will be great news.
For those that don't currently own this company, you need to get in on =
this now.
The company recently traded as high as .13 and with any significant news =
should be able
to see (if not exceed) those prices again.  Contact your broker now, =
don't miss this
opportunity in D M X C!
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Mining Sector --- Delta Mining =
UPDATE</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>HOT SECTOR: Additional information on (O_T_C: =
D M X C) D=20
M X C is expected to arrive soon.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>For those of you who currently own this =
company this=20
will be great news.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>For those that don't currently own this =
company, you=20
need to get in on this now.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>The company recently traded as high as .13 and =
with any=20
significant news should be able</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>to see (if not exceed) those prices again.  =
Contact your=20
broker now, don't miss this</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>opportunity in D M X =
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From Cesiliecarstens@FEDERICOPRATO.COM.AR Fri Sep 28 07:59:44 2007
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From turpinhmtm@SEX-MIX.RU Fri Sep 28 08:17:40 2007
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M,ining Sec tor ---+- Delt a Min,ing UPDA,TE 
H,O.T SE CTOR: Ad,diti'onal informa'ti-on on (O_T_,C: DMX,C) D*M.X'C is =
ex*p ected to a'rrive s,o*o'n-. 
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to s'e e (_i'f n_o t exc_eed) t-hose price_s agai'n.  Con*tact y'o*u'r =
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>M,ining Sec tor ---+- Delt a Min,ing UPDA,TE =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>H,O.T SE CTOR: Ad,diti'onal informa'ti-on on =
(O_T_,C:=20
DMX,C) D*M.X'C is ex*p ected to a'rrive s,o*o'n-. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>F o,r th_ose of y_o u w,h+o cur*rent ly o.w,n =
t h+i.s=20
c,ompany t.h+i.s w'i l l be g+reat n_e-w's'. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>F_o*r th ose t_h-a't d_on't current'l y o'w*n =
t.h_i s=20
comp-a ny, y'o*u n,e-e-d to g e.t in on t*h'i-s n'o_w-. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>T h*e compa_ny re'centl,y trade'd as h+i_g+h =
as . 1*3=20
a*n.d w,i_t h a n*y s'ignif+icant n'e*w*s sho,uld be a'b_l-e =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>to s'e e (_i'f n_o t exc_eed) t-hose price_s =
agai'n.  C
on*tact y'o*u'r broke_r n,o-w', don.'t m,i_s.s t'h i*s </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>opport_uni'ty in D.M,X*C*! =
</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C801DA.AAC8BE00--




From akstcachetenlignemnsdgs@achetenligne.com Fri Sep 28 09:31:20 2007
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EARDEOR

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life without a watch



From oylo4vvti@egroups.com Fri Sep 28 09:44:47 2007
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From tex@suturex-renodex.com Fri Sep 28 11:40:51 2007
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Subject: Best investment opportunity. Your chance to multiply your invest.
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$B!!!!!!(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(B

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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 28 15:22:12 2007
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To: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
CC: ccamp <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, pce@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Pce] Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical Networks...
References: <46FAEE2C.5040008@grotto-networking.com> <DF7F96101FAF2A4E8856AAFB001E07C77756A1@atl-srv-mail.atl.advaoptical.com>
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Hi Igor, see comments below.

Igor Bryskin wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
>  
>
> I believe the draft is very useful.
>
--> Thanks!
>
>  
>
> I have a couple of questions comments:
>
>  
>
> 1. Section : 4.4. Traffic Grooming: Combining WSON and Higher Layer Network 
>
>    Optimization
>
>  
>
> How the problem of grooming of higher layer network traffic over 
> optical trails is any different from the problem of traffic grooming 
> in TDM (e.g. VC12 over VC4)? I mean this is a general problem of 
> inter-layer relationship. I suggest moving all higher layer network 
> considerations out of scope of the draft and focusing on specifics of 
> the OCh layer.
>
--> Some of my co-authors agree with you on moving this section out.  
The reason that I put it in was that the optical "Traffic Grooming" 
problem has received a fair amount of attention in the research and 
general technical literature and is also a driver for the use of ROADMs 
(optical bypass).  I guess in general we've got the following 
inter-related problems: (a) virtual network topology design, (b) lower 
layer connection routing, (c) higher layer flow routing. In our case (b) 
is the RWA problem, which is fairly difficult in its own right. I guess 
I should look closely at the MLN/MRN work and see if a specific example 
that includes RWA is mentioned.  If so then I'd feel fine removing this 
section from the document.
>
>  
>
> 2. Considering wavelength conversion inevitably brings to the problem 
> of looped paths, which is a completely new ball game in path 
> computation, and I am surprised that the issue was never mentioned in 
> the draft.
>
--> How is this different from the "looping" that can occur with a TDM 
multiplexer in a drop and continue mode?  Also in these two circuit 
cases (TDM, and optical) do we have the same danger as in the packet 
case where looping traffic can greatly degrade other flows.  Was there 
some general looping concerns already published for GMPLS with respect 
to circuits? 
>
>  
>
> Cheers,
>
> Igor
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* Greg Bernstein [mailto:gregb@grotto-networking.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 26, 2007 7:42 PM
> *To:* ccamp; pce@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Pce] Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical 
> Networks...
>
>  
>
> Hi folks, I haven't seen too many comments on our draft "Framework for 
> GMPLS and PCE Control of Wavelength Switched Optical Networks" ( 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt). 
> So I figured I'd point out some potentially controversial issues that 
> the draft brings up.
>
> (a) The draft brings up models for the following WDM network elements:
>
>    1. WDM links
>    2. Optical transmitters
>    3. Wavelength Converters and OEO regenerators
>    4. ROADMs, FOADMs, optical splitters and combiners.
>
>     For items (3) and (4) we are taking the modeling lead rather than 
> some other SDO.  And for ROADMs, in particular, we going beyond the 
> classic ITU-T "fabric" model (M.3100) which has been the mainstay of 
> any connection oriented switch (TDM, ATM, MPLS).
>
> (b) The draft brings up three (not one, not two, but three) different 
> computational models for RWA which can impact GMPLS and PCE protocols:
>
>    1. A single PCE computing both the path and wavelength
>    2. Two distinct PCEs, where one computes the path, and a different
>       PCE computes the wavelength assignment
>    3. A PCE computes the path and wavelength assignment is
>       accomplished in a distributed fashion via signaling (e.g., using
>       label set objects)
>
>     Do we really need all three models?
>
> (c) G.709 includes the Optical Multiplex Section and Optical 
> Channels.  RFC4238 was aimed at GMPLS extensions for G.709  (Optical 
> Transport Network) control.  Weren't we finished with all this optical 
> stuff years ago?
>
> I'd like to think the draft answers some of these questions.  I also 
> think that network element models and the process models are important 
> enough to warrant this separate framework document.  Your opinions are 
> solicited.
>
> Regards
>
> Greg B.
>
> -- 
> ===================================================
> Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
>  

-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



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Hi Igor, see comments below.<br>
<br>
Igor Bryskin wrote:
<blockquote
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  <div class="Section1">
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">Greg,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">I believe
the draft is very useful.</span></font></p>
  </div>
</blockquote>
--&gt; Thanks!<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:DF7F96101FAF2A4E8856AAFB001E07C77756A1@atl-srv-mail.atl.advaoptical.com"
 type="cite">
  <div class="Section1">
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">I have a
couple of questions comments:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <pre><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">1. Section : </span></font><font
 color="black"><span style="color: windowtext;">4.4. Traffic Grooming: Combining WSON and Higher Layer Network <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; color: windowtext;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
Optimization<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">How the
problem of grooming of higher
layer network traffic over optical trails is any different from the
problem of
traffic grooming in TDM (e.g. VC12 over VC4)? I mean this is a general
problem
of inter-layer relationship. I suggest moving all higher layer network
considerations out of scope of the draft and focusing on specifics of
the OCh layer.</span></font></p>
  </div>
</blockquote>
--&gt; Some of my co-authors agree with you on moving this section
out.&nbsp; The reason that I put it in was that the optical "Traffic
Grooming" problem has received a fair amount of attention in the
research and general technical literature and is also a driver for the
use of ROADMs (optical bypass).&nbsp; I guess in general we've got the
following inter-related problems: (a) virtual network topology design,
(b) lower layer connection routing, (c) higher layer flow routing. In
our case (b) is the RWA problem, which is fairly difficult in its own
right. I guess I should look closely at the MLN/MRN work and see if a
specific example that includes RWA is mentioned.&nbsp; If so then I'd feel
fine removing this section from the document.<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:DF7F96101FAF2A4E8856AAFB001E07C77756A1@atl-srv-mail.atl.advaoptical.com"
 type="cite">
  <div class="Section1">
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">2.
Considering wavelength conversion inevitably
brings to the problem of looped paths, which is a completely new ball
game in
path computation, and I am surprised that the issue was never mentioned
in the
draft.</span></font></p>
  </div>
</blockquote>
--&gt; How is this different from the "looping" that can occur with a
TDM multiplexer in a drop and continue mode?&nbsp; Also in these two circuit
cases (TDM, and optical) do we have the same danger as in the packet
case where looping traffic can greatly degrade other flows.&nbsp; Was there
some general looping concerns already published for GMPLS with respect
to circuits?&nbsp; <br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:DF7F96101FAF2A4E8856AAFB001E07C77756A1@atl-srv-mail.atl.advaoptical.com"
 type="cite">
  <div class="Section1">
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">Igor<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <div>
  <div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font
 color="black" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; color: windowtext;">
  <hr tabindex="-1" align="center" size="3" width="100%"></span></font></div>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: windowtext; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font
 color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: windowtext;"> Greg
Bernstein [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gregb@grotto-networking.com">mailto:gregb@grotto-networking.com</a>] <br>
  <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday,
September 26,
2007 7:42 PM<br>
  <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> ccamp; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org</a><br>
  <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> [Pce] Some
key issues
with Wavelength Switched Optical Networks...</span></font><font
 color="black"><span style="color: windowtext;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
 size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
 size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Hi folks, I haven't seen too
many comments on our
draft "Framework for GMPLS and PCE Control of Wavelength Switched
Optical
Networks" ( <a moz-do-not-send="true"
 href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt</a>).
So I figured I'd point out some potentially controversial issues that
the draft
brings up. <br>
  <br>
(a) The draft brings up models for the following WDM network elements:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <ol start="1" type="1">
    <li class="MsoNormal" style=""><font color="black"
 face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">WDM
links<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
    <li class="MsoNormal" style=""><font color="black"
 face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Optical
transmitters<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
    <li class="MsoNormal" style=""><font color="black"
 face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Wavelength
Converters and OEO regenerators<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
    <li class="MsoNormal" style=""><font color="black"
 face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">ROADMs,
FOADMs, optical splitters and combiners.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
  </ol>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
 size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; For items (3) and (4) we
are taking
the modeling lead rather than some other SDO.&nbsp; And for ROADMs, in
particular, we going beyond the classic ITU-T "fabric" model (M.3100)
which has been the mainstay of any connection oriented switch (TDM,
ATM, MPLS).<br>
  <br>
(b) The draft brings up three (not one, not two, but three) different
computational models for RWA which can impact GMPLS and PCE protocols:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <ol start="1" type="1">
    <li class="MsoNormal" style=""><font color="black"
 face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">A
single PCE computing both the path and wavelength<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
    <li class="MsoNormal" style=""><font color="black"
 face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Two
distinct PCEs, where one computes the path, and a different PCE
computes the wavelength assignment<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
    <li class="MsoNormal" style=""><font color="black"
 face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">A PCE
computes the path and wavelength assignment is accomplished in a
distributed fashion via signaling (e.g., using label set objects)<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
  </ol>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
 size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Do we really need all
three models?<br>
  <br>
(c) G.709 includes the Optical Multiplex Section and Optical Channels.&nbsp;
RFC4238 was aimed at GMPLS extensions for G.709&nbsp; (Optical Transport
Network) control.&nbsp; Weren't we finished with all this optical stuff
years
ago?<br>
  <br>
I'd like to think the draft answers some of these questions.&nbsp; I also
think
that network element models and the process models are important enough
to
warrant this separate framework document.&nbsp; Your opinions are solicited.<br>
  <br>
Regards<br>
  <br>
Greg B.<br>
  <br>
  <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">-- <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">===================================================<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  </div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

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Hi Giovanni, thanks for the close read.  Looks like you caught some 
problems with the text.  See below for comments.

Giovanni Martinelli (giomarti) wrote:
> Hi Greg,
>  
> Sorry for the delay in replying. I'm working on this topic since a 
> while so yes, it's interesting. Before going on specific issue I would 
> have some question/clarification regarding the draft itself.
>  
>  
> * Within Abstract and the following.
> You don't talk about Optical Cross Connects (OXC) is something missing 
> or understated somewhere?
-->Whoops.  We were trying to find a more general term to include both 
ROADM (usually a highly asymmetric fabric) and an OXC (a completely 
symmetric fabric, e.g., any ingress to any egress), but we seemed to 
have gone with using the ROADM terminology to include both cases.  
Talked with some equipment makers that planned/make "switches" that 
seemed to incorporate both so we made sure the model could deal with 
both sparse and dense potential connectivity. Diego had some terminology 
ideas but lately his e-mails have been bouncing back to me.  Any 
suggestions are appreciated, but we are including both ROADM and OXCs.
>  
>  
> * Section 3.1 where you state:
> "A fixed mapping between the
> GMPLS label space and these ITU-T WDM grids as proposed in [Otani] "
> Does it implies a sort of network level label space? How relate with 
> usual local label significance?
--> This mapping gives a mapping between labels and wavelengths/lambda, 
just like in the SONET/SDH case we mapped the ITU-T G.707 "S, U, K, L, M 
" identification of SDH time slots to a label format in RFC4606 and 
again this was done in RFC4328 to map G.709 digital wrapper time slot 
identification into a technology specific label format.  In RFC3471 for 
lambda switching we just get a 32 bit integer with no meaning attached. 
Every network and every node could potentially map labels to lambdas in 
a different way. In [Otani] they are following the RFC4606 and RFC4328 
lead and using the ITU-T DWDM and CWDM lambda grid standards to give a 
fixed association between labels and lambdas just like between labels 
and TDM time slots in the SDH/ODU case.

This doesn't change the local significance of labels. In the wavelength 
switched optical case that is influenced by the presence or absence of 
wavelength converters.
>  
>  
> * Section 3.4 Wavelength Converters
> "Current or envisioned contexts for wavelength converters are : ..."
> Could we think to a description/model for wavelength converter that is 
> technology agnostic? Simply something like: full conversion 
> capability, partial conversion capability with some constrains, and 
> may be others.
--> The difference, between the all optical techniques and the OEO based 
techniques makes that difficult.
>  
>  
> * Section 3.4. the following:
> "4. Wavelength converters that are O-E-O based will have a restriction
> based on the modulation format and transmission speed"
> Not clear to me the type of restriction here when OEO happens... 
> probably I'm missing what you mean here.
--> For example a typical O-E-O based wavelength converter would be 
build around a 3R regenerator with a tunable laser. A 3R regenerator 
cares about the modulation type say NRZ or RZ (and which flavor), and 
the symbol rate since its also doing retiming. An all optical wavelength 
converter will be fairly independent of these issues (except when we 
look at impairment factors). Hence the OEO wavelength is going to be 
more signal specific than the all optical.
>  
>  
> * Section 4.1 when you talk about Lightpath temporal characteristics:
> "Lightpath connection duration has typically been thought of as
> approximately three time frames: "
> and the following you define: dynamics, pseudo-static, static.
> Why there's a need of this classification? When you us Short/long is 
> compared to what?
--> In most of the research literature and in optimization practice 
different techniques are typically used in the dynamic versus static (or 
psuedo static cases).  In MPLS there is minimum interference routing 
optimization techniques for the dynamic case. For the static case I 
could apply multi-commodity flow optimization techniques to a batch of 
connections.  In the RWA literature there is a similar differentiation.  
Exactly what information could be sent to help PCE differentiate I'm not 
sure. In the case of static, batch optimization we can just use the 
existing concurrent optimization hooks in PCE. For an individual 
lightpath request it seemed that it would be helpful to know how long 
the connection would last so we'd know how much computational effort we 
might want to put into optimize it.
>  
>  
> minor typo on your mail below: point (c) rfc4328 (not 4238) right?
--> Yes.  The G.709 signaling extensions RFC.
>  
> Thanks,
> Giovanni
>
>
>  
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* Greg Bernstein [mailto:gregb@grotto-networking.com]
>     *Sent:* giovedì 27 settembre 2007 1.42
>     *To:* ccamp; pce@ietf.org
>     *Subject:* [Pce] Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical
>     Networks...
>
>     Hi folks, I haven't seen too many comments on our draft "Framework
>     for GMPLS and PCE Control of Wavelength Switched Optical Networks"
>     (
>     http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt).
>     So I figured I'd point out some potentially controversial issues
>     that the draft brings up.
>
>     (a) The draft brings up models for the following WDM network elements:
>
>        1. WDM links
>        2. Optical transmitters
>        3. Wavelength Converters and OEO regenerators
>        4. ROADMs, FOADMs, optical splitters and combiners.
>
>         For items (3) and (4) we are taking the modeling lead rather
>     than some other SDO.  And for ROADMs, in particular, we going
>     beyond the classic ITU-T "fabric" model (M.3100) which has been
>     the mainstay of any connection oriented switch (TDM, ATM, MPLS).
>
>     (b) The draft brings up three (not one, not two, but three)
>     different computational models for RWA which can impact GMPLS and
>     PCE protocols:
>
>        1. A single PCE computing both the path and wavelength
>        2. Two distinct PCEs, where one computes the path, and a
>           different PCE computes the wavelength assignment
>        3. A PCE computes the path and wavelength assignment is
>           accomplished in a distributed fashion via signaling (e.g.,
>           using label set objects)
>
>         Do we really need all three models?
>
>     (c) G.709 includes the Optical Multiplex Section and Optical
>     Channels.  RFC4238 was aimed at GMPLS extensions for G.709 
>     (Optical Transport Network) control.  Weren't we finished with all
>     this optical stuff years ago?
>
>     I'd like to think the draft answers some of these questions.  I
>     also think that network element models and the process models are
>     important enough to warrant this separate framework document. 
>     Your opinions are solicited.
>
>     Regards
>
>     Greg B.
>
>     -- 
>     ===================================================
>     Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
>
>         
>

-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



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Hi Giovanni, thanks for the close read.&nbsp; Looks like you caught some
problems with the text.&nbsp; See below for comments.<br>
<br>
Giovanni Martinelli (giomarti) wrote:
<blockquote
 cite="mid:1F2FBF50FB955441A11316BAE835CED4042D142B@xmb-ams-338.emea.cisco.com"
 type="cite">
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; ">
  <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.3157" name="GENERATOR">
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">Hi Greg,</font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><font face="Courier New">Sorry
for the delay in replying. I'm working on this topic since a while so
yes, it's interesting. Before going on specific issue I would have some
question/clarification regarding the draft itself. </font></font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">*
Within Abstract and the following.</font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">You
don't talk about Optical Cross Connects (OXC) is something missing or
understated somewhere?</font></div>
</blockquote>
--&gt;Whoops.&nbsp; We were trying to find a more general term to include
both ROADM (usually a highly asymmetric fabric) and an OXC (a
completely symmetric fabric, e.g., any ingress to any egress), but we
seemed to have gone with using the ROADM terminology to include both
cases.&nbsp; Talked with some equipment makers that planned/make "switches"
that seemed to incorporate both so we made sure the model could deal
with both sparse and dense potential connectivity. Diego had some
terminology ideas but lately his e-mails have been bouncing back to
me.&nbsp; Any suggestions are appreciated, but we are including both ROADM
and OXCs. <br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:1F2FBF50FB955441A11316BAE835CED4042D142B@xmb-ams-338.emea.cisco.com"
 type="cite">
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><font face="Courier New">*
Section 3.1 where you state: </font></font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><font face="Courier New">"A
fixed mapping between the </font></font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">GMPLS
label space and these ITU-T WDM grids as proposed in [Otani] "</font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">Does it
implies a sort of network level label space? How relate with usual
local label significance?</font></div>
</blockquote>
--&gt; This mapping gives a mapping between labels and
wavelengths/lambda, just like in the SONET/SDH case we mapped the ITU-T
G.707 "S, U, K, L, M " identification of SDH time slots to a label
format in RFC4606 and again this was done in RFC4328 to map G.709
digital wrapper time slot identification into a technology specific
label format.&nbsp; In RFC3471 for lambda switching we just get a 32 bit
integer with no meaning attached. Every network and every node could
potentially map labels to lambdas in a different way. In [Otani] they
are following the RFC4606 and RFC4328 lead and using the ITU-T DWDM and
CWDM lambda grid standards to give a fixed association between labels
and lambdas just like between labels and TDM time slots in the SDH/ODU
case.<br>
<br>
This doesn't change the local significance of labels. In the wavelength
switched optical case that is influenced by the presence or absence of
wavelength converters.<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:1F2FBF50FB955441A11316BAE835CED4042D142B@xmb-ams-338.emea.cisco.com"
 type="cite">
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><font face="Courier New">*
Section 3.4 Wavelength Converters </font></font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">"Current
or envisioned contexts for wavelength converters are : ..."</font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">Could
we&nbsp;<span class="312013122-27092007">think to </span>a
description/model for wavelength converter that is technology agnostic?&nbsp;<span
 class="312013122-27092007">S</span><span class="312013122-27092007">imply
s</span>omething like: full conversion capability, partial conversion
capability with some constrains, and may be others.</font></div>
</blockquote>
--&gt; The difference, between the all optical techniques and the OEO
based techniques makes that difficult.<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:1F2FBF50FB955441A11316BAE835CED4042D142B@xmb-ams-338.emea.cisco.com"
 type="cite">
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><font face="Courier New">*
Section 3.4. the following: </font></font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><font face="Courier New">"4.
Wavelength converters that are O-E-O based will have a restriction </font></font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><font face="Courier New">based
on the modulation format and transmission speed" </font></font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">Not
clear to me the type of restriction here when OEO happens... probably
I'm missing what you mean here.</font></div>
</blockquote>
--&gt; For example a typical O-E-O based wavelength converter would be
build around a 3R regenerator with a tunable laser. A 3R regenerator
cares about the modulation type say NRZ or RZ (and which flavor), and
the symbol rate since its also doing retiming. An all optical
wavelength converter will be fairly independent of these issues (except
when we look at impairment factors). Hence the OEO wavelength is going
to be more signal specific than the all optical.<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:1F2FBF50FB955441A11316BAE835CED4042D142B@xmb-ams-338.emea.cisco.com"
 type="cite">
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">*
Section 4.1 when you talk about Lightpath temporal characteristics:</font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><font face="Courier New">"Lightpath
connection duration has typically been thought of as </font></font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><font face="Courier New">approximately
three time frames: " </font></font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">and the
following you define: dynamics, pseudo-static, static.</font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">Why
there&#8217;s a need of this classification? When you us Short/long is
compared to what?</font></div>
</blockquote>
--&gt; In most of the research literature and in optimization practice
different techniques are typically used in the dynamic versus static
(or psuedo static cases).&nbsp; In MPLS there is minimum interference
routing optimization techniques for the dynamic case. For the static
case I could apply multi-commodity flow optimization techniques to a
batch of connections.&nbsp; In the RWA literature there is a similar
differentiation.&nbsp; Exactly what information could be sent to help PCE
differentiate I'm not sure. In the case of static, batch optimization
we can just use the existing concurrent optimization hooks in PCE. For
an individual lightpath request it seemed that it would be helpful to
know how long the connection would last so we'd know how much
computational effort we might want to put into optimize it.<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:1F2FBF50FB955441A11316BAE835CED4042D142B@xmb-ams-338.emea.cisco.com"
 type="cite">
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="312013122-27092007"><font
 face="Courier New" size="2">minor typo on your mail below: point (c)
rfc4328 (not 4238) right?</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
--&gt; Yes.&nbsp; The G.709 signaling extensions RFC.<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:1F2FBF50FB955441A11316BAE835CED4042D142B@xmb-ams-338.emea.cisco.com"
 type="cite">
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">Thanks,</font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">Giovanni</font></div>
  <p><font face="Arial" size="2"><br>
  </font>&nbsp;</p>
  <blockquote dir="ltr"
 style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
    <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" align="left"
 lang="en-us">
    <hr tabindex="-1"> <font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> Greg
Bernstein [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gregb@grotto-networking.com">mailto:gregb@grotto-networking.com</a>] <br>
    <b>Sent:</b> gioved&igrave; 27 settembre 2007 1.42<br>
    <b>To:</b> ccamp; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org</a><br>
    <b>Subject:</b> [Pce] Some key issues with Wavelength Switched
Optical Networks...<br>
    </font><br>
    </div>
Hi folks, I haven't seen too many comments on our draft "Framework for
GMPLS and PCE Control of Wavelength Switched Optical Networks" ( <a
 moz-do-not-send="true"
 href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt</a>).
So I figured I'd point out some potentially controversial issues that
the draft brings up. <br>
    <br>
(a) The draft brings up models for the following WDM network elements:<br>
    <ol>
      <li>WDM links </li>
      <li>Optical transmitters<br>
      </li>
      <li>Wavelength Converters and OEO regenerators </li>
      <li>ROADMs, FOADMs, optical splitters and combiners. </li>
    </ol>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; For items (3) and (4) we are taking the modeling lead rather than
some other SDO.&nbsp; And for ROADMs, in particular, we going beyond the
classic ITU-T "fabric" model (M.3100) which has been the mainstay of
any connection oriented switch (TDM, ATM, MPLS).<br>
    <br>
(b) The draft brings up three (not one, not two, but three) different
computational models for RWA which can impact GMPLS and PCE protocols:<br>
    <ol>
      <li>A single PCE computing both the path and wavelength </li>
      <li>Two distinct PCEs, where one computes the path, and a
different PCE computes the wavelength assignment </li>
      <li>A PCE computes the path and wavelength assignment is
accomplished in a distributed fashion via signaling (e.g., using label
set objects) </li>
    </ol>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Do we really need all three models?<br>
    <br>
(c) G.709 includes the Optical Multiplex Section and Optical Channels.&nbsp;
RFC4238 was aimed at GMPLS extensions for G.709&nbsp; (Optical Transport
Network) control.&nbsp; Weren't we finished with all this optical stuff
years ago?<br>
    <br>
I'd like to think the draft answers some of these questions.&nbsp; I also
think that network element models and the process models are important
enough to warrant this separate framework document.&nbsp; Your opinions are
solicited.<br>
    <br>
Regards<br>
    <br>
Greg B.<br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

    </pre>
  </blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

</pre>
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Subject: Re: [Pce] Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical Networks...
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Very good catch Igor. See in line.

Igor Bryskin wrote:
> --snip--
>
>
>
>  
>
> 2. Considering wavelength conversion inevitably brings to the problem 
> of looped paths, which is a completely new ball game in path 
> computation, and I am surprised that the issue was never mentioned in 
> the draft.
>
> --> How is this different from the "looping" that can occur with a TDM 
> multiplexer in a drop and continue mode?  Also in these two circuit 
> cases (TDM, and optical) do we have the same danger as in the packet 
> case where looping traffic can greatly degrade other flows.  Was there 
> some general looping concerns already published for GMPLS with respect 
> to circuits? 
>
>  
>
> IB>> There is a profound difference. I am not talking here about 
> accidental looping, rather about deliberate looping: if some nodes can 
> perform wavelength conversion while others can not, then you will want 
> to route the connection to one or several conversion points and after 
> that get it back on the main path. In other words you will 
> deliberately request, say, a PCE to produce looped path, and then 
> GMPLS RSVP-TE to signal looped path, which is completely out of normal 
> paradigm of work for both PCE and RSVP.
>
--> I thought you were worried about accidental loops.  I didn't even 
consider what you are talking about "looping", but would RSVP processing 
get fouled up? It sure looks like a loop at the "node" level.
In the ERO the "node" subobject (IP4, IP6, AS) could definitely be 
repeated, but with a different "Label ERO" subobject appended. This is 
definitely something somebody would not to in the MPLS or TDM case.  
I'll be sure to add it as an important difference in the next revision. 
Thanks!
>
>  
>
> Cheers,
>
> Igor
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
--snip--

-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



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Very good catch Igor. See in line.<br>
<br>
Igor Bryskin wrote:
<blockquote
 cite="mid:DF7F96101FAF2A4E8856AAFB001E07C7775851@atl-srv-mail.atl.advaoptical.com"
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  <div class="Section1"><font color="blue"><font size="3"><font
 face="Times New Roman">--snip--</font></font></font>
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 size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: blue;"></span></font><br>
  <br>
  <o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><u5:p></u5:p><u5:p>&nbsp;</u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">2.
Considering wavelength conversion
inevitably brings to the problem of looped paths, which is a completely
new
ball game in path computation, and I am surprised that the issue was
never
mentioned in the draft.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
 size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">--&gt; How is this different
from the
"looping" that can occur with a TDM multiplexer in a drop and
continue mode?&nbsp; Also in these two circuit cases (TDM, and optical) do
we
have the same danger as in the packet case where looping traffic can
greatly
degrade other flows.&nbsp; Was there some general looping concerns already
published for GMPLS with respect to circuits?&nbsp; </span></font><font
 color="blue"><span style="color: blue;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">IB&gt;&gt;
There is a profound difference.
I am not talking here about accidental looping, rather about deliberate
looping: if some nodes can perform wavelength conversion while others
can not,
then you will want to route the connection to one or several conversion
points
and after that get it back on the main path. In other words you will
deliberately request, say, a PCE to produce looped path, and then GMPLS
RSVP-TE
to signal looped path, which is completely out of normal paradigm of
work for
both PCE and RSVP.</span></font></p>
  </div>
</blockquote>
--&gt; I thought you were worried about accidental loops.&nbsp; I didn't
even consider what you are talking about "looping", but would RSVP
processing get fouled up? It sure looks like a loop at the "node"
level. <br>
In the ERO the "node" subobject (IP4, IP6, AS) could definitely be
repeated, but with a different "Label ERO" subobject appended. This is
definitely something somebody would not to in the MPLS or TDM case.&nbsp;
I'll be sure to add it as an important difference in the next revision.
Thanks!<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:DF7F96101FAF2A4E8856AAFB001E07C7775851@atl-srv-mail.atl.advaoptical.com"
 type="cite">
  <div class="Section1">
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">Cheers, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">Igor<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">&nbsp;<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <div>
  <div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font
 color="black" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; color: windowtext;">
  <hr tabindex="-1" align="center" size="3" width="100%"></span></font></div>
  </div>
  </div>
</blockquote>
--snip--<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

</pre>
</body>
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Subject: RE: [Pce] Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical Networks...
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Yes, this is an interesting problem within the WSON domain and one way =
to solve the RSVP-TE problem is by modeling the node with the loop-back =
as a pass-thru node with some sort of indication within the signaling =
message identifying which pieces of hardware to use as part of the =
loop-back.
=20
Snigdho

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org]On =
Behalf Of Greg Bernstein
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 4:44 PM
To: Igor Bryskin
Cc: ccamp; pce@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Pce] Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical =
Networks...


Very good catch Igor. See in line.

Igor Bryskin wrote:=20

--snip--=20







2. Considering wavelength conversion inevitably brings to the problem of =
looped paths, which is a completely new ball game in path computation, =
and I am surprised that the issue was never mentioned in the draft.

--> How is this different from the "looping" that can occur with a TDM =
multiplexer in a drop and continue mode?  Also in these two circuit =
cases (TDM, and optical) do we have the same danger as in the packet =
case where looping traffic can greatly degrade other flows.  Was there =
some general looping concerns already published for GMPLS with respect =
to circuits? =20



IB>> There is a profound difference. I am not talking here about =
accidental looping, rather about deliberate looping: if some nodes can =
perform wavelength conversion while others can not, then you will want =
to route the connection to one or several conversion points and after =
that get it back on the main path. In other words you will deliberately =
request, say, a PCE to produce looped path, and then GMPLS RSVP-TE to =
signal looped path, which is completely out of normal paradigm of work =
for both PCE and RSVP.

--> I thought you were worried about accidental loops.  I didn't even =
consider what you are talking about "looping", but would RSVP processing =
get fouled up? It sure looks like a loop at the "node" level.=20
In the ERO the "node" subobject (IP4, IP6, AS) could definitely be =
repeated, but with a different "Label ERO" subobject appended. This is =
definitely something somebody would not to in the MPLS or TDM case.  =
I'll be sure to add it as an important difference in the next revision. =
Thanks!






Cheers,=20

Igor




  _____ =20


--snip--

--=20

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D

Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237




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<BODY text=3D#000000 bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D487141822-28092007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Yes,=20
this is an interesting problem within the WSON domain&nbsp;and one way =
to solve=20
the RSVP-TE problem&nbsp;is by modeling the node with&nbsp;the loop-back =
as a=20
pass-thru node with some sort of indication within the signaling message =

identifying which pieces of hardware to use as part of the=20
loop-back.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D487141822-28092007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D487141822-28092007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Snigdho</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
  [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Greg=20
  Bernstein<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 28, 2007 4:44 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  Igor Bryskin<BR><B>Cc:</B> ccamp; pce@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[Pce]=20
  Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical=20
  Networks...<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>Very good catch Igor. See in =
line.<BR><BR>Igor=20
  Bryskin wrote:=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  =
cite=3Dmid:DF7F96101FAF2A4E8856AAFB001E07C7775851@atl-srv-mail.atl.advaop=
tical.com=20
  type=3D"cite">
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    <DIV class=3DSection1><FONT color=3Dblue><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
    face=3D"Times New Roman">--snip--</FONT></FONT></FONT>=20
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dblue =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue"></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
    color=3D#0000ff></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff></FONT><FONT=20
    color=3D#0000ff></FONT><BR><BR><O:P></O:P></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><U5:P></U5:P><U5:P></U5:P></SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">2. =
Considering=20
    wavelength conversion inevitably brings to the problem of looped =
paths,=20
    which is a completely new ball game in path computation, and I am =
surprised=20
    that the issue was never mentioned in the=20
draft.</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dblack =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">--&gt; How is this different from the =
"looping" that=20
    can occur with a TDM multiplexer in a drop and continue mode?&nbsp; =
Also in=20
    these two circuit cases (TDM, and optical) do we have the same =
danger as in=20
    the packet case where looping traffic can greatly degrade other =
flows.&nbsp;=20
    Was there some general looping concerns already published for GMPLS =
with=20
    respect to circuits?&nbsp; </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3Dblue><SPAN=20
    style=3D"COLOR: blue"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">IB&gt;&gt; There is=20
    a profound difference. I am not talking here about accidental =
looping,=20
    rather about deliberate looping: if some nodes can perform =
wavelength=20
    conversion while others can not, then you will want to route the =
connection=20
    to one or several conversion points and after that get it back on =
the main=20
    path. In other words you will deliberately request, say, a PCE to =
produce=20
    looped path, and then GMPLS RSVP-TE to signal looped path, which is=20
    completely out of normal paradigm of work for both PCE and=20
    RSVP.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>--&gt; I thought you were =
worried=20
  about accidental loops.&nbsp; I didn't even consider what you are =
talking=20
  about "looping", but would RSVP processing get fouled up? It sure =
looks like a=20
  loop at the "node" level. <BR>In the ERO the "node" subobject (IP4, =
IP6, AS)=20
  could definitely be repeated, but with a different "Label ERO" =
subobject=20
  appended. This is definitely something somebody would not to in the =
MPLS or=20
  TDM case.&nbsp; I'll be sure to add it as an important difference in =
the next=20
  revision. Thanks!<BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  =
cite=3Dmid:DF7F96101FAF2A4E8856AAFB001E07C7775851@atl-srv-mail.atl.advaop=
tical.com=20
  type=3D"cite">
    <DIV class=3DSection1>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cheers,=20
    <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Igor<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><U5:P></U5:P></SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P>
    <DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" =
align=3Dcenter><FONT=20
    face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dblack size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: windowtext">
    <HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D3>
    </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>--snip--<BR><PRE =
class=3Dmoz-signature cols=3D"72">--=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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=3D
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From Gilad_Meijer@genefelice.com Sat Sep 29 06:28:21 2007
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From gerhardt@martindale.com Sat Sep 29 07:23:33 2007
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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sat Sep 29 08:42:53 2007
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Hi,

Now that the MLN requirements and protocol evaluation have completed last 
call with just a couple of comments, and now that we have more or less 
reached stability with our liaisons to the ITU-T on this subject, we need to 
look for a solutions I-D.

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-papadimitriou-ccamp-gmpls-mrn-extensions-04.txt 
has been running for some time and tracking both the requirements and the 
lacunae identified by the evaluation draft. It seems that this provides a 
good basis for the protocol work in CCAMP even if some elements might 
change.

Please express your support or otherwise for this I-D to become a WG draft.

Thanks,
Adrian 






From backhoe@ariadne-webdesign.co.uk Sat Sep 29 09:35:45 2007
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From iiro_Takhar@pcbsupply.com Sat Sep 29 09:43:11 2007
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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sat Sep 29 12:25:00 2007
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Cc: OSPF List <ospf@ietf.org>,
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From: Acee Lindem <acee@redback.com>
Subject: Re: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 12:15:02 -0400
To: Mach Chen <mach@huawei.com>
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Hi Mach,

On Sep 29, 2007, at 1:12 AM, Mach Chen wrote:

> Hi Acee ,
>
> Sorroy for late reply.
>
> On 2007-09-26, at 22:14:36 Acee Lindem wrote:
>
>> Hi Mach,
>>
>> On Sep 26, 2007, at 6:10 AM, Mach Chen wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Acee,
>>>
>>> Pls see inline
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2007-09-25, at 21:05:49 Acee Lindem wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Mach,
>>>> Thanks for reviewing.
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 25, 2007, at 4:24 AM, Mach Chen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Acee and other authors,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Some questions to ospfv3-traffic
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.       In this ospfv3-traffic document, a new LSA, Intra-Area-TE
>>>>> LSA, is defined to advertise IPv6 TE information. =46rom name of =20=

>>>>> this
>>>>> new LSA, IMHO, it is limited to be used for Intra-Area TE only. =20=

>>>>> So,
>>>>> if there are some underlying extensions to ospfv3-traffic, e.g.
>>>>> Inter-AS TE, it is a little bit strange to re-use the Intra-=20
>>>>> Area-TE
>>>>> LSA, or it has to define a new LSA. So, can we change its name to
>>>>> something like =93OSPFv3 TE LSA=94?
>>>> It would be if we had intended it to carry AS wide information.
>>>> However, it was not initially intended for this. The initial =20
>>>> thought
>>>> was that we would do a better job for OSPFv3 and define separate =20=

>>>> LSA
>>>> types for intra-area, inter-area, and AS external TE LSAs. Thoughts
>>>> on this (copied ccamp as well)?
>>>
>>> So, the conclusion is that a new LSA(may be called Inter-AS-TE LSA)
>>> has to be defined for advertising inter-AS TE information in
>>> support of OSPFv3 TE, am I right?
>>>
>>>> I guess, IMHO, this discrepancy
>>>> exposes the choice of a new link type for inter-AS connectivity =20
>>>> as a
>>>> bit of a hack.
>>>>
>>>
>>> For OSPFv3 TE(separate LSAs are used) is YES. But as to OSPFv2 TE,
>>> IMHO, there should be a new link type to identify an inter-AS link,
>>> or we need another new LSA.
>>
>>
>> It seems to me that if we do add the link in your draft, then it
>> should be done the same in OSPFv2 and OSPFv3. Advertising it as a new
>> link type is one way to advertise inter-AS connectivity. However, it
>> isn't necessarily a link. This seems to me to be more of a semantical
>> discrepancy than the name of the LSA. In section 4, I notice that at
>> least for OSPFv2 the draft says the new link may be advertised in
>> either a type 11 opaque LSA or type 10 opaque LSA. Given the maturity
>> of RFC 3630, it almost seems to me that we should allocate a new LSA
>> opaque type for this purpose.
>>
>> What is the status of draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-
>> extension-01.txt?
>
>
> The I-D has been updated recently according to the comments =20
> received from Chicago meeting. The main changes inlcude:
>
> 1. According to Kireeti's comments, make a clear statement "There =20
> is no OSPF adjacency running on the inter-AS link";
>
> 2. Enhance the PCE-based scenario to explain that the AS number =20
> property of an inter-AS TE link is needed, and clearly state that =20
> the AS number sub-TLV is mandatory;
>
> 3. Add the missing part about that the local ASBR SHOULD do a =20
> "proxy" advertisement for the backward of an inter-AS TE link;
>
> 4. Enhance the Security section.
>
> Currently, IMHO, the I-D can support OSPFv2 properly, due to the =20
> diffence between OSPFv2 TE and OSPFv3 TE, some changes are needed =20
> in order to encompass OSPFv3, so the status of the I-D is "work in =20
> progress":)

Ok - will review the next version.

>
>> I know at the OSPF meeting there were a number of people who
>> questioned whether or not it was necessary.
>
> I am not sure the necessary you pointed is pointed to the new link =20
> type or the Inter-AS TE I-D. Because I did not hear any questions =20
> about the necessary of the I-D, so I assume that you poinited is =20
> the new link type. As I pointed before, if a new sepatate LSA is =20
> used, the new link type may not be needed.

Sounds good, I haven't seen much dissension on the CCAMP list.

Thanks,
Acee


>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Acee
>>
>
>
>
> Best regards,		=09
> Mach Chen
>





From tkptjk@boschrexroth.com.au Sat Sep 29 17:09:48 2007
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From Brannek@comspec.linuxpl.com Sat Sep 29 23:24:02 2007
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Hello ccamp-archive

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From HaakonKaisko@listingseminar.com Sun Sep 30 03:00:01 2007
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Hello ccamp-archive

Urgent alert.
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From Karhumaazspe@listingseminar.com Sun Sep 30 03:00:43 2007
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Hello ccamp-archive

Urgent alert.
Look at DM XC!
5-day price: ~$0.50

Get it at monday
roowknad
rrebgnil
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<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>5-day price: ~$0.50</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Get it at monday</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>roowknad</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>rrebgnil</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>row-emaf</FONT></DIV>
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From Misty_Kargar@omgmt.com Sun Sep 30 06:19:02 2007
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Hello ccamp-archive

Urgent alert.
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neressuc
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neniz




From Masanel914@sandiegotheatres.org Sun Sep 30 09:03:46 2007
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From: "Masanel Quehl" <Masanel914@sandiegotheatres.org>
To: ccamp-archive@megatron.ietf.org
Subject: neialcab
Date:	Sun, 30 Sep 2007 14:03:41 +0100
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Good day ccamp-archive

Alert to all investors!
Look at D-M-X-C!
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Check it at 31.09.2007
negninry
neeteita
neihc-ie
neieorb




From Fluder@countrystore.org Sun Sep 30 09:12:17 2007
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Good day ccamp-archive

Alert to all investors!
Look at D-M-X-C!
5-day price: ~$0.50

Check it at 31.09.2007
ednetken
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Good day ccamp-archive

Alert to all investors!
Look at D-M-X-C!
5-day price: ~$0.50

Check it at 31.09.2007
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From owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org Sun Sep 30 10:07:57 2007
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Cc: "Tomohiro Otani" <otani@kddilabs.jp>,
	<ho-guo@kddilabs.jp>,
	"K. Miyazaki" <miyazaki.keiji@jp.fujitsu.com>,
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Subject: Thoughts on draft-otani-ccamp-gmpls-lambda-labels-00.txt
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Hi,

I think this draft is introducing a useful feature for LSC networks by 
allowing lambda labels to have a global semantic.

Although this work is functionally not an absolute requirement (it is always 
possible to map lambdas on a hop-by-hop basis) it is clearly a 
simplification to have a common semantic just as in the TDM label case.

Here are some nits and issues in the current draft.

===
Abstract
You should not use square bracket [ ] references in the Abstract
===
Abstract
d/ and getting significant/
===
Abstract
"new generation"
Do you mean "next generation" or "new"?
===
Abstract
s/proposes/defines/
===
Section 3
s/vendors?  network is/vendors'  networks are/
===
Section 3
  "It is needless to say, a LSP must be appropriately provisioned
   between a selected pair of ports within Domain A, considering
   wavelength information. Even over multiple domains, a LSP must be
   accordingly established satisfying wavelength constraints."
I'm having some trouble parsing this paragraph!
===
Figure 2
The node numbers in figure 2 don't match those in figure 1, and that is 
confusing since it is supposed to show the details of the connection shown 
in figure 1.
===
Section 4
I think you need to be careful here.
These requirements should probably not be expressed in RFC2119 language.
Reference to advertising labels is a distraction. I understand that this is 
interesting to you, but as described in the text here and in 
draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt there are some considerable 
concerns about extending the IGPs to carry label identifiers. I suggest you 
restrict your I-D to the identification of lambdas in GMPLS labels and let 
future work decide how these encodings might be used outside signaling.
===
Section 5.2
It looks like you have already almost run out of Channel Spacing bits in the 
CS field. Given that technology developments are likely to find ways of 
decreasing the channel spacing, I would suggest allocating another bit to 
the CS field.
Similarly, n is limited to 511 (if my bit counting is right), and it seems 
to me that the potential for more than 500 lambdas on a fiber is not so 
improbable.
So, how about...
       0                   1                   2                   3
       0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      |Grid |  C.S. |S|    Reserved   |               n               |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
===
Section 5.3
To correspond with the field placement suggested for section 5.2, I would 
suggest the following for CWDM.
       0                   1                   2                   3
       0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      |Grid |     Reserved        |              Lambda               |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
===
Section 6.1
I think some of the progression here is faulty.
We have:
  "An all-optical network imposes the Lambda continuity constraint, that
   is, a label cannot be changed hop by hop, but must have an end to end
   scope.

   The above is not supported by RFC3471 that states that a label has
   significance only between two neighbors."
It is true that 3471 lambda labels only have link-local significance, but 
that does not mean that end-to-end lambda continuity cannot be supported. 
Nor does it mean that the label must or must not be changed hop-by-hop.

I suspect that the whole of section 6.1 is surplus to the needs of this I-D, 
and could be dropped without any problem.
The two things you do need in this section are:
1. How do I use a new Lambda Label?
   Answer: in all of the places that an existing Generalized
   Label can be used.
2. How do I tell when a new Lambda Label is being used
   and when an existing Generalized Label is being used?
   Does this remain a link local issue (as it always has done)
   or do you propose to define a new field value in the
   Generalized label Request or a new C-Type for the
   Generalized Label Object?
===
Section 6.2
As mentioned before, I think that discussion of advertising lambda 
availability is best removed from this I-D.
===
Section 7
You might like to consider that the use of a global semantic makes the 
control plane signaling information slightly more vulnerable to snooping and 
external control. I don't think this changes the security model, but you 
should mention the fact.
===
Section 10
I think [G.694.1] and [G.694.2] are probably normative references.
===

Cheers,
Adrian 






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From darinkagnamus@asp-italia.com Sun Sep 30 12:15:25 2007
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Production Facility For Porsche Designed Yacht At Near Capacity

Fearless International
FRLE.OB
$0.32

The "Fearless 28", from Porsche design Studios was released at the
Worlds Largest Boat Show In Miami. Since the release, Fearless has been
working at 75% capacity to fill orders for this must have item.
Magazines like Yacht Magazine, Cigar Aficionado, Boating World, GQ, and
Bloomberg Markets have rated it nothing less than incredible. Check out
the video and all the media coverage on the fearlessyachts website. When
your done, set your buy for FRLE first thing Monday morning.




From wow@ya.com Sun Sep 30 12:15:27 2007
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New Porsche Designed Yacht Rocks Market As Orders Pour In

Fearless International
FRLE.OB
Price: $0.32

Fearless International Rocked the Yacht World with the Porsche Designed
"Fearless 28" in Miami this year. Orders from the show have put
production at 75% of capacity. The media coverage has been across the
board from magazines like Bloomberg Market to GQ and Yachts magazine.
Read the articles and watch this yacht in action from their video on
there website fearlessyachts. After you have seen it all, get ready to
grab FRLE Monday morning.




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From dsparksby@netvigator.com Sun Sep 30 18:03:27 2007
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Subject: By Rolex for 250$ or less    c16n
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:45:54 +0000
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Dear rbunch@ietf.org

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Thanks
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rbunch@ietf.org wrote:
> I selling Rolexes and other watches do you want ?
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out me now
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Good day ccamp-archive

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Good day ccamp-archive

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Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 13:58:28 +0000
Message-ID: <062f01c80357$b66a0a60$0200a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Tomohiro Otani" <otani@kddilabs.jp>, <ho-guo@kddilabs.jp>, "K. Miyazaki" <miyazaki.keiji@jp.fujitsu.com>, "Diego Caviglia \(GO/MCI\)" <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>
Subject: Thoughts on draft-otani-ccamp-gmpls-lambda-labels-00.txt
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 12:46:59 +0100
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Hi,

I think this draft is introducing a useful feature for LSC networks by 
allowing lambda labels to have a global semantic.

Although this work is functionally not an absolute requirement (it is always 
possible to map lambdas on a hop-by-hop basis) it is clearly a 
simplification to have a common semantic just as in the TDM label case.

Here are some nits and issues in the current draft.

===
Abstract
You should not use square bracket [ ] references in the Abstract
===
Abstract
d/ and getting significant/
===
Abstract
"new generation"
Do you mean "next generation" or "new"?
===
Abstract
s/proposes/defines/
===
Section 3
s/vendors?  network is/vendors'  networks are/
===
Section 3
  "It is needless to say, a LSP must be appropriately provisioned
   between a selected pair of ports within Domain A, considering
   wavelength information. Even over multiple domains, a LSP must be
   accordingly established satisfying wavelength constraints."
I'm having some trouble parsing this paragraph!
===
Figure 2
The node numbers in figure 2 don't match those in figure 1, and that is 
confusing since it is supposed to show the details of the connection shown 
in figure 1.
===
Section 4
I think you need to be careful here.
These requirements should probably not be expressed in RFC2119 language.
Reference to advertising labels is a distraction. I understand that this is 
interesting to you, but as described in the text here and in 
draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt there are some considerable 
concerns about extending the IGPs to carry label identifiers. I suggest you 
restrict your I-D to the identification of lambdas in GMPLS labels and let 
future work decide how these encodings might be used outside signaling.
===
Section 5.2
It looks like you have already almost run out of Channel Spacing bits in the 
CS field. Given that technology developments are likely to find ways of 
decreasing the channel spacing, I would suggest allocating another bit to 
the CS field.
Similarly, n is limited to 511 (if my bit counting is right), and it seems 
to me that the potential for more than 500 lambdas on a fiber is not so 
improbable.
So, how about...
       0                   1                   2                   3
       0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      |Grid |  C.S. |S|    Reserved   |               n               |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
===
Section 5.3
To correspond with the field placement suggested for section 5.2, I would 
suggest the following for CWDM.
       0                   1                   2                   3
       0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      |Grid |     Reserved        |              Lambda               |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
===
Section 6.1
I think some of the progression here is faulty.
We have:
  "An all-optical network imposes the Lambda continuity constraint, that
   is, a label cannot be changed hop by hop, but must have an end to end
   scope.

   The above is not supported by RFC3471 that states that a label has
   significance only between two neighbors."
It is true that 3471 lambda labels only have link-local significance, but 
that does not mean that end-to-end lambda continuity cannot be supported. 
Nor does it mean that the label must or must not be changed hop-by-hop.

I suspect that the whole of section 6.1 is surplus to the needs of this I-D, 
and could be dropped without any problem.
The two things you do need in this section are:
1. How do I use a new Lambda Label?
   Answer: in all of the places that an existing Generalized
   Label can be used.
2. How do I tell when a new Lambda Label is being used
   and when an existing Generalized Label is being used?
   Does this remain a link local issue (as it always has done)
   or do you propose to define a new field value in the
   Generalized label Request or a new C-Type for the
   Generalized Label Object?
===
Section 6.2
As mentioned before, I think that discussion of advertising lambda 
availability is best removed from this I-D.
===
Section 7
You might like to consider that the use of a global semantic makes the 
control plane signaling information slightly more vulnerable to snooping and 
external control. I don't think this changes the security model, but you 
should mention the fact.
===
Section 10
I think [G.694.1] and [G.694.2] are probably normative references.
===

Cheers,
Adrian 





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Cc: OSPF List <ospf@ietf.org>, Vishwas Manral <vishwas@ipinfusion.com>, Alan Davey <Alan.Davey@dataconnection.com>, CCAMP List <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
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From: Acee Lindem <acee@redback.com>
Subject: Re: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 12:15:02 -0400
To: Mach Chen <mach@huawei.com>

Hi Mach,

On Sep 29, 2007, at 1:12 AM, Mach Chen wrote:

> Hi Acee ,
>
> Sorroy for late reply.
>
> On 2007-09-26, at 22:14:36 Acee Lindem wrote:
>
>> Hi Mach,
>>
>> On Sep 26, 2007, at 6:10 AM, Mach Chen wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Acee,
>>>
>>> Pls see inline
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2007-09-25, at 21:05:49 Acee Lindem wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Mach,
>>>> Thanks for reviewing.
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 25, 2007, at 4:24 AM, Mach Chen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Acee and other authors,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Some questions to ospfv3-traffic
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.       In this ospfv3-traffic document, a new LSA, Intra-Area-TE
>>>>> LSA, is defined to advertise IPv6 TE information. =46rom name of =20=

>>>>> this
>>>>> new LSA, IMHO, it is limited to be used for Intra-Area TE only. =20=

>>>>> So,
>>>>> if there are some underlying extensions to ospfv3-traffic, e.g.
>>>>> Inter-AS TE, it is a little bit strange to re-use the Intra-=20
>>>>> Area-TE
>>>>> LSA, or it has to define a new LSA. So, can we change its name to
>>>>> something like =93OSPFv3 TE LSA=94?
>>>> It would be if we had intended it to carry AS wide information.
>>>> However, it was not initially intended for this. The initial =20
>>>> thought
>>>> was that we would do a better job for OSPFv3 and define separate =20=

>>>> LSA
>>>> types for intra-area, inter-area, and AS external TE LSAs. Thoughts
>>>> on this (copied ccamp as well)?
>>>
>>> So, the conclusion is that a new LSA(may be called Inter-AS-TE LSA)
>>> has to be defined for advertising inter-AS TE information in
>>> support of OSPFv3 TE, am I right?
>>>
>>>> I guess, IMHO, this discrepancy
>>>> exposes the choice of a new link type for inter-AS connectivity =20
>>>> as a
>>>> bit of a hack.
>>>>
>>>
>>> For OSPFv3 TE(separate LSAs are used) is YES. But as to OSPFv2 TE,
>>> IMHO, there should be a new link type to identify an inter-AS link,
>>> or we need another new LSA.
>>
>>
>> It seems to me that if we do add the link in your draft, then it
>> should be done the same in OSPFv2 and OSPFv3. Advertising it as a new
>> link type is one way to advertise inter-AS connectivity. However, it
>> isn't necessarily a link. This seems to me to be more of a semantical
>> discrepancy than the name of the LSA. In section 4, I notice that at
>> least for OSPFv2 the draft says the new link may be advertised in
>> either a type 11 opaque LSA or type 10 opaque LSA. Given the maturity
>> of RFC 3630, it almost seems to me that we should allocate a new LSA
>> opaque type for this purpose.
>>
>> What is the status of draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-
>> extension-01.txt?
>
>
> The I-D has been updated recently according to the comments =20
> received from Chicago meeting. The main changes inlcude:
>
> 1. According to Kireeti's comments, make a clear statement "There =20
> is no OSPF adjacency running on the inter-AS link";
>
> 2. Enhance the PCE-based scenario to explain that the AS number =20
> property of an inter-AS TE link is needed, and clearly state that =20
> the AS number sub-TLV is mandatory;
>
> 3. Add the missing part about that the local ASBR SHOULD do a =20
> "proxy" advertisement for the backward of an inter-AS TE link;
>
> 4. Enhance the Security section.
>
> Currently, IMHO, the I-D can support OSPFv2 properly, due to the =20
> diffence between OSPFv2 TE and OSPFv3 TE, some changes are needed =20
> in order to encompass OSPFv3, so the status of the I-D is "work in =20
> progress":)

Ok - will review the next version.

>
>> I know at the OSPF meeting there were a number of people who
>> questioned whether or not it was necessary.
>
> I am not sure the necessary you pointed is pointed to the new link =20
> type or the Inter-AS TE I-D. Because I did not hear any questions =20
> about the necessary of the I-D, so I assume that you poinited is =20
> the new link type. As I pointed before, if a new sepatate LSA is =20
> used, the new link type may not be needed.

Sounds good, I haven't seen much dissension on the CCAMP list.

Thanks,
Acee


>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Acee
>>
>
>
>
> Best regards,		=09
> Mach Chen
>




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Delivery-date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 12:34:28 +0000
Message-ID: <05be01c80294$b6a151a0$0200a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Proposed new working group draft
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:31:38 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi,

Now that the MLN requirements and protocol evaluation have completed last 
call with just a couple of comments, and now that we have more or less 
reached stability with our liaisons to the ITU-T on this subject, we need to 
look for a solutions I-D.

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-papadimitriou-ccamp-gmpls-mrn-extensions-04.txt 
has been running for some time and tracking both the requirements and the 
lacunae identified by the evaluation draft. It seems that this provides a 
good basis for the protocol work in CCAMP even if some elements might 
change.

Please express your support or otherwise for this I-D to become a WG draft.

Thanks,
Adrian 





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 05:14:53 +0000
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:12:08 +0800
From: Mach Chen <mach@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt
To: Acee Lindem <acee@redback.com>
Cc: OSPF List <ospf@ietf.org>, Vishwas Manral <vishwas@ipinfusion.com>, Alan Davey <Alan.Davey@dataconnection.com>, CCAMP List <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
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Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 22:34:06 +0000
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8021F.8D653E47"
Subject: RE: [Pce] Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical Networks...
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:33:11 -0500
Message-ID: <A278CCD6FF152E478C3CF84E4C3BC79D0222F50F@rchemx01.fnc.net.local>
Thread-Topic: [Pce] Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical Networks...
Thread-Index: AcgCGayoFx0FLU33S4uAa4y5kFZHtwAA8mjA
From: "Bardalai, Snigdho" <Snigdho.Bardalai@us.fujitsu.com>
To: "Greg Bernstein" <gregb@grotto-networking.com>, "Igor Bryskin" <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
Cc: "ccamp" <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <pce@ietf.org>

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Yes, this is an interesting problem within the WSON domain and one way =
to solve the RSVP-TE problem is by modeling the node with the loop-back =
as a pass-thru node with some sort of indication within the signaling =
message identifying which pieces of hardware to use as part of the =
loop-back.
=20
Snigdho

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org]On =
Behalf Of Greg Bernstein
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 4:44 PM
To: Igor Bryskin
Cc: ccamp; pce@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Pce] Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical =
Networks...


Very good catch Igor. See in line.

Igor Bryskin wrote:=20

--snip--=20







2. Considering wavelength conversion inevitably brings to the problem of =
looped paths, which is a completely new ball game in path computation, =
and I am surprised that the issue was never mentioned in the draft.

--> How is this different from the "looping" that can occur with a TDM =
multiplexer in a drop and continue mode?  Also in these two circuit =
cases (TDM, and optical) do we have the same danger as in the packet =
case where looping traffic can greatly degrade other flows.  Was there =
some general looping concerns already published for GMPLS with respect =
to circuits? =20



IB>> There is a profound difference. I am not talking here about =
accidental looping, rather about deliberate looping: if some nodes can =
perform wavelength conversion while others can not, then you will want =
to route the connection to one or several conversion points and after =
that get it back on the main path. In other words you will deliberately =
request, say, a PCE to produce looped path, and then GMPLS RSVP-TE to =
signal looped path, which is completely out of normal paradigm of work =
for both PCE and RSVP.

--> I thought you were worried about accidental loops.  I didn't even =
consider what you are talking about "looping", but would RSVP processing =
get fouled up? It sure looks like a loop at the "node" level.=20
In the ERO the "node" subobject (IP4, IP6, AS) could definitely be =
repeated, but with a different "Label ERO" subobject appended. This is =
definitely something somebody would not to in the MPLS or TDM case.  =
I'll be sure to add it as an important difference in the next revision. =
Thanks!






Cheers,=20

Igor




  _____ =20


--snip--

--=20

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D

Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237




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<DIV><SPAN class=3D487141822-28092007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Yes,=20
this is an interesting problem within the WSON domain&nbsp;and one way =
to solve=20
the RSVP-TE problem&nbsp;is by modeling the node with&nbsp;the loop-back =
as a=20
pass-thru node with some sort of indication within the signaling message =

identifying which pieces of hardware to use as part of the=20
loop-back.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D487141822-28092007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D487141822-28092007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Snigdho</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
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  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
  [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Greg=20
  Bernstein<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 28, 2007 4:44 =
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  Igor Bryskin<BR><B>Cc:</B> ccamp; pce@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[Pce]=20
  Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical=20
  Networks...<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>Very good catch Igor. See in =
line.<BR><BR>Igor=20
  Bryskin wrote:=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  =
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    <DIV class=3DSection1><FONT color=3Dblue><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
    face=3D"Times New Roman">--snip--</FONT></FONT></FONT>=20
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dblue =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue"></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
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    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D3><SPAN=20
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Considering=20
    wavelength conversion inevitably brings to the problem of looped =
paths,=20
    which is a completely new ball game in path computation, and I am =
surprised=20
    that the issue was never mentioned in the=20
draft.</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dblack =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">--&gt; How is this different from the =
"looping" that=20
    can occur with a TDM multiplexer in a drop and continue mode?&nbsp; =
Also in=20
    these two circuit cases (TDM, and optical) do we have the same =
danger as in=20
    the packet case where looping traffic can greatly degrade other =
flows.&nbsp;=20
    Was there some general looping concerns already published for GMPLS =
with=20
    respect to circuits?&nbsp; </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3Dblue><SPAN=20
    style=3D"COLOR: blue"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
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    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">IB&gt;&gt; There is=20
    a profound difference. I am not talking here about accidental =
looping,=20
    rather about deliberate looping: if some nodes can perform =
wavelength=20
    conversion while others can not, then you will want to route the =
connection=20
    to one or several conversion points and after that get it back on =
the main=20
    path. In other words you will deliberately request, say, a PCE to =
produce=20
    looped path, and then GMPLS RSVP-TE to signal looped path, which is=20
    completely out of normal paradigm of work for both PCE and=20
    RSVP.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>--&gt; I thought you were =
worried=20
  about accidental loops.&nbsp; I didn't even consider what you are =
talking=20
  about "looping", but would RSVP processing get fouled up? It sure =
looks like a=20
  loop at the "node" level. <BR>In the ERO the "node" subobject (IP4, =
IP6, AS)=20
  could definitely be repeated, but with a different "Label ERO" =
subobject=20
  appended. This is definitely something somebody would not to in the =
MPLS or=20
  TDM case.&nbsp; I'll be sure to add it as an important difference in =
the next=20
  revision. Thanks!<BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  =
cite=3Dmid:DF7F96101FAF2A4E8856AAFB001E07C7775851@atl-srv-mail.atl.advaop=
tical.com=20
  type=3D"cite">
    <DIV class=3DSection1>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cheers,=20
    <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Igor<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><U5:P></U5:P></SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P>
    <DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" =
align=3Dcenter><FONT=20
    face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dblack size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: windowtext">
    <HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D3>
    </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>--snip--<BR><PRE =
class=3Dmoz-signature cols=3D"72">--=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:45:26 +0000
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Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 14:43:37 -0700
From: Greg Bernstein <gregb@grotto-networking.com>
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MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
CC: ccamp <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, pce@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Pce] Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical Networks...
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Very good catch Igor. See in line.

Igor Bryskin wrote:
> --snip--
>
>
>
>  
>
> 2. Considering wavelength conversion inevitably brings to the problem 
> of looped paths, which is a completely new ball game in path 
> computation, and I am surprised that the issue was never mentioned in 
> the draft.
>
> --> How is this different from the "looping" that can occur with a TDM 
> multiplexer in a drop and continue mode?  Also in these two circuit 
> cases (TDM, and optical) do we have the same danger as in the packet 
> case where looping traffic can greatly degrade other flows.  Was there 
> some general looping concerns already published for GMPLS with respect 
> to circuits? 
>
>  
>
> IB>> There is a profound difference. I am not talking here about 
> accidental looping, rather about deliberate looping: if some nodes can 
> perform wavelength conversion while others can not, then you will want 
> to route the connection to one or several conversion points and after 
> that get it back on the main path. In other words you will 
> deliberately request, say, a PCE to produce looped path, and then 
> GMPLS RSVP-TE to signal looped path, which is completely out of normal 
> paradigm of work for both PCE and RSVP.
>
--> I thought you were worried about accidental loops.  I didn't even 
consider what you are talking about "looping", but would RSVP processing 
get fouled up? It sure looks like a loop at the "node" level.
In the ERO the "node" subobject (IP4, IP6, AS) could definitely be 
repeated, but with a different "Label ERO" subobject appended. This is 
definitely something somebody would not to in the MPLS or TDM case.  
I'll be sure to add it as an important difference in the next revision. 
Thanks!
>
>  
>
> Cheers,
>
> Igor
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
--snip--

-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



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Very good catch Igor. See in line.<br>
<br>
Igor Bryskin wrote:
<blockquote
 cite="mid:DF7F96101FAF2A4E8856AAFB001E07C7775851@atl-srv-mail.atl.advaoptical.com"
 type="cite">
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  <div class="Section1"><font color="blue"><font size="3"><font
 face="Times New Roman">--snip--</font></font></font>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Times New Roman"
 size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: blue;"></span></font><br>
  <br>
  <o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><u5:p></u5:p><u5:p>&nbsp;</u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">2.
Considering wavelength conversion
inevitably brings to the problem of looped paths, which is a completely
new
ball game in path computation, and I am surprised that the issue was
never
mentioned in the draft.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
 size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">--&gt; How is this different
from the
"looping" that can occur with a TDM multiplexer in a drop and
continue mode?&nbsp; Also in these two circuit cases (TDM, and optical) do
we
have the same danger as in the packet case where looping traffic can
greatly
degrade other flows.&nbsp; Was there some general looping concerns already
published for GMPLS with respect to circuits?&nbsp; </span></font><font
 color="blue"><span style="color: blue;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">IB&gt;&gt;
There is a profound difference.
I am not talking here about accidental looping, rather about deliberate
looping: if some nodes can perform wavelength conversion while others
can not,
then you will want to route the connection to one or several conversion
points
and after that get it back on the main path. In other words you will
deliberately request, say, a PCE to produce looped path, and then GMPLS
RSVP-TE
to signal looped path, which is completely out of normal paradigm of
work for
both PCE and RSVP.</span></font></p>
  </div>
</blockquote>
--&gt; I thought you were worried about accidental loops.&nbsp; I didn't
even consider what you are talking about "looping", but would RSVP
processing get fouled up? It sure looks like a loop at the "node"
level. <br>
In the ERO the "node" subobject (IP4, IP6, AS) could definitely be
repeated, but with a different "Label ERO" subobject appended. This is
definitely something somebody would not to in the MPLS or TDM case.&nbsp;
I'll be sure to add it as an important difference in the next revision.
Thanks!<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:DF7F96101FAF2A4E8856AAFB001E07C7775851@atl-srv-mail.atl.advaoptical.com"
 type="cite">
  <div class="Section1">
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">Cheers, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">Igor<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">&nbsp;<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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 color="black" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; color: windowtext;">
  <hr tabindex="-1" align="center" size="3" width="100%"></span></font></div>
  </div>
  </div>
</blockquote>
--snip--<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

</pre>
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Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 19:48:07 +0000
Message-ID: <46FD5A18.2080505@grotto-networking.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:46:32 -0700
From: Greg Bernstein <gregb@grotto-networking.com>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "Giovanni Martinelli (giomarti)" <giomarti@cisco.com>
CC: ccamp <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, pce@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Pce] Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical Networks...
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Hi Giovanni, thanks for the close read.  Looks like you caught some 
problems with the text.  See below for comments.

Giovanni Martinelli (giomarti) wrote:
> Hi Greg,
>  
> Sorry for the delay in replying. I'm working on this topic since a 
> while so yes, it's interesting. Before going on specific issue I would 
> have some question/clarification regarding the draft itself.
>  
>  
> * Within Abstract and the following.
> You don't talk about Optical Cross Connects (OXC) is something missing 
> or understated somewhere?
-->Whoops.  We were trying to find a more general term to include both 
ROADM (usually a highly asymmetric fabric) and an OXC (a completely 
symmetric fabric, e.g., any ingress to any egress), but we seemed to 
have gone with using the ROADM terminology to include both cases.  
Talked with some equipment makers that planned/make "switches" that 
seemed to incorporate both so we made sure the model could deal with 
both sparse and dense potential connectivity. Diego had some terminology 
ideas but lately his e-mails have been bouncing back to me.  Any 
suggestions are appreciated, but we are including both ROADM and OXCs.
>  
>  
> * Section 3.1 where you state:
> "A fixed mapping between the
> GMPLS label space and these ITU-T WDM grids as proposed in [Otani] "
> Does it implies a sort of network level label space? How relate with 
> usual local label significance?
--> This mapping gives a mapping between labels and wavelengths/lambda, 
just like in the SONET/SDH case we mapped the ITU-T G.707 "S, U, K, L, M 
" identification of SDH time slots to a label format in RFC4606 and 
again this was done in RFC4328 to map G.709 digital wrapper time slot 
identification into a technology specific label format.  In RFC3471 for 
lambda switching we just get a 32 bit integer with no meaning attached. 
Every network and every node could potentially map labels to lambdas in 
a different way. In [Otani] they are following the RFC4606 and RFC4328 
lead and using the ITU-T DWDM and CWDM lambda grid standards to give a 
fixed association between labels and lambdas just like between labels 
and TDM time slots in the SDH/ODU case.

This doesn't change the local significance of labels. In the wavelength 
switched optical case that is influenced by the presence or absence of 
wavelength converters.
>  
>  
> * Section 3.4 Wavelength Converters
> "Current or envisioned contexts for wavelength converters are : ..."
> Could we think to a description/model for wavelength converter that is 
> technology agnostic? Simply something like: full conversion 
> capability, partial conversion capability with some constrains, and 
> may be others.
--> The difference, between the all optical techniques and the OEO based 
techniques makes that difficult.
>  
>  
> * Section 3.4. the following:
> "4. Wavelength converters that are O-E-O based will have a restriction
> based on the modulation format and transmission speed"
> Not clear to me the type of restriction here when OEO happens... 
> probably I'm missing what you mean here.
--> For example a typical O-E-O based wavelength converter would be 
build around a 3R regenerator with a tunable laser. A 3R regenerator 
cares about the modulation type say NRZ or RZ (and which flavor), and 
the symbol rate since its also doing retiming. An all optical wavelength 
converter will be fairly independent of these issues (except when we 
look at impairment factors). Hence the OEO wavelength is going to be 
more signal specific than the all optical.
>  
>  
> * Section 4.1 when you talk about Lightpath temporal characteristics:
> "Lightpath connection duration has typically been thought of as
> approximately three time frames: "
> and the following you define: dynamics, pseudo-static, static.
> Why there's a need of this classification? When you us Short/long is 
> compared to what?
--> In most of the research literature and in optimization practice 
different techniques are typically used in the dynamic versus static (or 
psuedo static cases).  In MPLS there is minimum interference routing 
optimization techniques for the dynamic case. For the static case I 
could apply multi-commodity flow optimization techniques to a batch of 
connections.  In the RWA literature there is a similar differentiation.  
Exactly what information could be sent to help PCE differentiate I'm not 
sure. In the case of static, batch optimization we can just use the 
existing concurrent optimization hooks in PCE. For an individual 
lightpath request it seemed that it would be helpful to know how long 
the connection would last so we'd know how much computational effort we 
might want to put into optimize it.
>  
>  
> minor typo on your mail below: point (c) rfc4328 (not 4238) right?
--> Yes.  The G.709 signaling extensions RFC.
>  
> Thanks,
> Giovanni
>
>
>  
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* Greg Bernstein [mailto:gregb@grotto-networking.com]
>     *Sent:* giovedì 27 settembre 2007 1.42
>     *To:* ccamp; pce@ietf.org
>     *Subject:* [Pce] Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical
>     Networks...
>
>     Hi folks, I haven't seen too many comments on our draft "Framework
>     for GMPLS and PCE Control of Wavelength Switched Optical Networks"
>     (
>     http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt).
>     So I figured I'd point out some potentially controversial issues
>     that the draft brings up.
>
>     (a) The draft brings up models for the following WDM network elements:
>
>        1. WDM links
>        2. Optical transmitters
>        3. Wavelength Converters and OEO regenerators
>        4. ROADMs, FOADMs, optical splitters and combiners.
>
>         For items (3) and (4) we are taking the modeling lead rather
>     than some other SDO.  And for ROADMs, in particular, we going
>     beyond the classic ITU-T "fabric" model (M.3100) which has been
>     the mainstay of any connection oriented switch (TDM, ATM, MPLS).
>
>     (b) The draft brings up three (not one, not two, but three)
>     different computational models for RWA which can impact GMPLS and
>     PCE protocols:
>
>        1. A single PCE computing both the path and wavelength
>        2. Two distinct PCEs, where one computes the path, and a
>           different PCE computes the wavelength assignment
>        3. A PCE computes the path and wavelength assignment is
>           accomplished in a distributed fashion via signaling (e.g.,
>           using label set objects)
>
>         Do we really need all three models?
>
>     (c) G.709 includes the Optical Multiplex Section and Optical
>     Channels.  RFC4238 was aimed at GMPLS extensions for G.709 
>     (Optical Transport Network) control.  Weren't we finished with all
>     this optical stuff years ago?
>
>     I'd like to think the draft answers some of these questions.  I
>     also think that network element models and the process models are
>     important enough to warrant this separate framework document. 
>     Your opinions are solicited.
>
>     Regards
>
>     Greg B.
>
>     -- 
>     ===================================================
>     Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
>
>         
>

-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



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Hi Giovanni, thanks for the close read.&nbsp; Looks like you caught some
problems with the text.&nbsp; See below for comments.<br>
<br>
Giovanni Martinelli (giomarti) wrote:
<blockquote
 cite="mid:1F2FBF50FB955441A11316BAE835CED4042D142B@xmb-ams-338.emea.cisco.com"
 type="cite">
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; ">
  <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.3157" name="GENERATOR">
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">Hi Greg,</font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><font face="Courier New">Sorry
for the delay in replying. I'm working on this topic since a while so
yes, it's interesting. Before going on specific issue I would have some
question/clarification regarding the draft itself. </font></font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">*
Within Abstract and the following.</font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">You
don't talk about Optical Cross Connects (OXC) is something missing or
understated somewhere?</font></div>
</blockquote>
--&gt;Whoops.&nbsp; We were trying to find a more general term to include
both ROADM (usually a highly asymmetric fabric) and an OXC (a
completely symmetric fabric, e.g., any ingress to any egress), but we
seemed to have gone with using the ROADM terminology to include both
cases.&nbsp; Talked with some equipment makers that planned/make "switches"
that seemed to incorporate both so we made sure the model could deal
with both sparse and dense potential connectivity. Diego had some
terminology ideas but lately his e-mails have been bouncing back to
me.&nbsp; Any suggestions are appreciated, but we are including both ROADM
and OXCs. <br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:1F2FBF50FB955441A11316BAE835CED4042D142B@xmb-ams-338.emea.cisco.com"
 type="cite">
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><font face="Courier New">*
Section 3.1 where you state: </font></font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><font face="Courier New">"A
fixed mapping between the </font></font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">GMPLS
label space and these ITU-T WDM grids as proposed in [Otani] "</font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">Does it
implies a sort of network level label space? How relate with usual
local label significance?</font></div>
</blockquote>
--&gt; This mapping gives a mapping between labels and
wavelengths/lambda, just like in the SONET/SDH case we mapped the ITU-T
G.707 "S, U, K, L, M " identification of SDH time slots to a label
format in RFC4606 and again this was done in RFC4328 to map G.709
digital wrapper time slot identification into a technology specific
label format.&nbsp; In RFC3471 for lambda switching we just get a 32 bit
integer with no meaning attached. Every network and every node could
potentially map labels to lambdas in a different way. In [Otani] they
are following the RFC4606 and RFC4328 lead and using the ITU-T DWDM and
CWDM lambda grid standards to give a fixed association between labels
and lambdas just like between labels and TDM time slots in the SDH/ODU
case.<br>
<br>
This doesn't change the local significance of labels. In the wavelength
switched optical case that is influenced by the presence or absence of
wavelength converters.<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:1F2FBF50FB955441A11316BAE835CED4042D142B@xmb-ams-338.emea.cisco.com"
 type="cite">
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><font face="Courier New">*
Section 3.4 Wavelength Converters </font></font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">"Current
or envisioned contexts for wavelength converters are : ..."</font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">Could
we&nbsp;<span class="312013122-27092007">think to </span>a
description/model for wavelength converter that is technology agnostic?&nbsp;<span
 class="312013122-27092007">S</span><span class="312013122-27092007">imply
s</span>omething like: full conversion capability, partial conversion
capability with some constrains, and may be others.</font></div>
</blockquote>
--&gt; The difference, between the all optical techniques and the OEO
based techniques makes that difficult.<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:1F2FBF50FB955441A11316BAE835CED4042D142B@xmb-ams-338.emea.cisco.com"
 type="cite">
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><font face="Courier New">*
Section 3.4. the following: </font></font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><font face="Courier New">"4.
Wavelength converters that are O-E-O based will have a restriction </font></font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><font face="Courier New">based
on the modulation format and transmission speed" </font></font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">Not
clear to me the type of restriction here when OEO happens... probably
I'm missing what you mean here.</font></div>
</blockquote>
--&gt; For example a typical O-E-O based wavelength converter would be
build around a 3R regenerator with a tunable laser. A 3R regenerator
cares about the modulation type say NRZ or RZ (and which flavor), and
the symbol rate since its also doing retiming. An all optical
wavelength converter will be fairly independent of these issues (except
when we look at impairment factors). Hence the OEO wavelength is going
to be more signal specific than the all optical.<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:1F2FBF50FB955441A11316BAE835CED4042D142B@xmb-ams-338.emea.cisco.com"
 type="cite">
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">*
Section 4.1 when you talk about Lightpath temporal characteristics:</font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><font face="Courier New">"Lightpath
connection duration has typically been thought of as </font></font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><font face="Courier New">approximately
three time frames: " </font></font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">and the
following you define: dynamics, pseudo-static, static.</font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">Why
there&#8217;s a need of this classification? When you us Short/long is
compared to what?</font></div>
</blockquote>
--&gt; In most of the research literature and in optimization practice
different techniques are typically used in the dynamic versus static
(or psuedo static cases).&nbsp; In MPLS there is minimum interference
routing optimization techniques for the dynamic case. For the static
case I could apply multi-commodity flow optimization techniques to a
batch of connections.&nbsp; In the RWA literature there is a similar
differentiation.&nbsp; Exactly what information could be sent to help PCE
differentiate I'm not sure. In the case of static, batch optimization
we can just use the existing concurrent optimization hooks in PCE. For
an individual lightpath request it seemed that it would be helpful to
know how long the connection would last so we'd know how much
computational effort we might want to put into optimize it.<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:1F2FBF50FB955441A11316BAE835CED4042D142B@xmb-ams-338.emea.cisco.com"
 type="cite">
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="312013122-27092007"><font
 face="Courier New" size="2">minor typo on your mail below: point (c)
rfc4328 (not 4238) right?</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
--&gt; Yes.&nbsp; The G.709 signaling extensions RFC.<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:1F2FBF50FB955441A11316BAE835CED4042D142B@xmb-ams-338.emea.cisco.com"
 type="cite">
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">&nbsp;</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">Thanks,</font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Courier New" size="2">Giovanni</font></div>
  <p><font face="Arial" size="2"><br>
  </font>&nbsp;</p>
  <blockquote dir="ltr"
 style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
    <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" align="left"
 lang="en-us">
    <hr tabindex="-1"> <font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> Greg
Bernstein [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gregb@grotto-networking.com">mailto:gregb@grotto-networking.com</a>] <br>
    <b>Sent:</b> gioved&igrave; 27 settembre 2007 1.42<br>
    <b>To:</b> ccamp; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org</a><br>
    <b>Subject:</b> [Pce] Some key issues with Wavelength Switched
Optical Networks...<br>
    </font><br>
    </div>
Hi folks, I haven't seen too many comments on our draft "Framework for
GMPLS and PCE Control of Wavelength Switched Optical Networks" ( <a
 moz-do-not-send="true"
 href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt</a>).
So I figured I'd point out some potentially controversial issues that
the draft brings up. <br>
    <br>
(a) The draft brings up models for the following WDM network elements:<br>
    <ol>
      <li>WDM links </li>
      <li>Optical transmitters<br>
      </li>
      <li>Wavelength Converters and OEO regenerators </li>
      <li>ROADMs, FOADMs, optical splitters and combiners. </li>
    </ol>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; For items (3) and (4) we are taking the modeling lead rather than
some other SDO.&nbsp; And for ROADMs, in particular, we going beyond the
classic ITU-T "fabric" model (M.3100) which has been the mainstay of
any connection oriented switch (TDM, ATM, MPLS).<br>
    <br>
(b) The draft brings up three (not one, not two, but three) different
computational models for RWA which can impact GMPLS and PCE protocols:<br>
    <ol>
      <li>A single PCE computing both the path and wavelength </li>
      <li>Two distinct PCEs, where one computes the path, and a
different PCE computes the wavelength assignment </li>
      <li>A PCE computes the path and wavelength assignment is
accomplished in a distributed fashion via signaling (e.g., using label
set objects) </li>
    </ol>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Do we really need all three models?<br>
    <br>
(c) G.709 includes the Optical Multiplex Section and Optical Channels.&nbsp;
RFC4238 was aimed at GMPLS extensions for G.709&nbsp; (Optical Transport
Network) control.&nbsp; Weren't we finished with all this optical stuff
years ago?<br>
    <br>
I'd like to think the draft answers some of these questions.&nbsp; I also
think that network element models and the process models are important
enough to warrant this separate framework document.&nbsp; Your opinions are
solicited.<br>
    <br>
Regards<br>
    <br>
Greg B.<br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

    </pre>
  </blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

</pre>
</body>
</html>

--------------030001070104060803010707--



Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 19:13:15 +0000
Message-ID: <46FD51B9.9060909@grotto-networking.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:10:49 -0700
From: Greg Bernstein <gregb@grotto-networking.com>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
CC: ccamp <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, pce@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Pce] Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical Networks...
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Hi Igor, see comments below.

Igor Bryskin wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
>  
>
> I believe the draft is very useful.
>
--> Thanks!
>
>  
>
> I have a couple of questions comments:
>
>  
>
> 1. Section : 4.4. Traffic Grooming: Combining WSON and Higher Layer Network 
>
>    Optimization
>
>  
>
> How the problem of grooming of higher layer network traffic over 
> optical trails is any different from the problem of traffic grooming 
> in TDM (e.g. VC12 over VC4)? I mean this is a general problem of 
> inter-layer relationship. I suggest moving all higher layer network 
> considerations out of scope of the draft and focusing on specifics of 
> the OCh layer.
>
--> Some of my co-authors agree with you on moving this section out.  
The reason that I put it in was that the optical "Traffic Grooming" 
problem has received a fair amount of attention in the research and 
general technical literature and is also a driver for the use of ROADMs 
(optical bypass).  I guess in general we've got the following 
inter-related problems: (a) virtual network topology design, (b) lower 
layer connection routing, (c) higher layer flow routing. In our case (b) 
is the RWA problem, which is fairly difficult in its own right. I guess 
I should look closely at the MLN/MRN work and see if a specific example 
that includes RWA is mentioned.  If so then I'd feel fine removing this 
section from the document.
>
>  
>
> 2. Considering wavelength conversion inevitably brings to the problem 
> of looped paths, which is a completely new ball game in path 
> computation, and I am surprised that the issue was never mentioned in 
> the draft.
>
--> How is this different from the "looping" that can occur with a TDM 
multiplexer in a drop and continue mode?  Also in these two circuit 
cases (TDM, and optical) do we have the same danger as in the packet 
case where looping traffic can greatly degrade other flows.  Was there 
some general looping concerns already published for GMPLS with respect 
to circuits? 
>
>  
>
> Cheers,
>
> Igor
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* Greg Bernstein [mailto:gregb@grotto-networking.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 26, 2007 7:42 PM
> *To:* ccamp; pce@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Pce] Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical 
> Networks...
>
>  
>
> Hi folks, I haven't seen too many comments on our draft "Framework for 
> GMPLS and PCE Control of Wavelength Switched Optical Networks" ( 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt). 
> So I figured I'd point out some potentially controversial issues that 
> the draft brings up.
>
> (a) The draft brings up models for the following WDM network elements:
>
>    1. WDM links
>    2. Optical transmitters
>    3. Wavelength Converters and OEO regenerators
>    4. ROADMs, FOADMs, optical splitters and combiners.
>
>     For items (3) and (4) we are taking the modeling lead rather than 
> some other SDO.  And for ROADMs, in particular, we going beyond the 
> classic ITU-T "fabric" model (M.3100) which has been the mainstay of 
> any connection oriented switch (TDM, ATM, MPLS).
>
> (b) The draft brings up three (not one, not two, but three) different 
> computational models for RWA which can impact GMPLS and PCE protocols:
>
>    1. A single PCE computing both the path and wavelength
>    2. Two distinct PCEs, where one computes the path, and a different
>       PCE computes the wavelength assignment
>    3. A PCE computes the path and wavelength assignment is
>       accomplished in a distributed fashion via signaling (e.g., using
>       label set objects)
>
>     Do we really need all three models?
>
> (c) G.709 includes the Optical Multiplex Section and Optical 
> Channels.  RFC4238 was aimed at GMPLS extensions for G.709  (Optical 
> Transport Network) control.  Weren't we finished with all this optical 
> stuff years ago?
>
> I'd like to think the draft answers some of these questions.  I also 
> think that network element models and the process models are important 
> enough to warrant this separate framework document.  Your opinions are 
> solicited.
>
> Regards
>
> Greg B.
>
> -- 
> ===================================================
> Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
>  

-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



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Hi Igor, see comments below.<br>
<br>
Igor Bryskin wrote:
<blockquote
 cite="mid:DF7F96101FAF2A4E8856AAFB001E07C77756A1@atl-srv-mail.atl.advaoptical.com"
 type="cite">
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  <div class="Section1">
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">Greg,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">I believe
the draft is very useful.</span></font></p>
  </div>
</blockquote>
--&gt; Thanks!<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:DF7F96101FAF2A4E8856AAFB001E07C77756A1@atl-srv-mail.atl.advaoptical.com"
 type="cite">
  <div class="Section1">
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">I have a
couple of questions comments:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <pre><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">1. Section : </span></font><font
 color="black"><span style="color: windowtext;">4.4. Traffic Grooming: Combining WSON and Higher Layer Network <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; color: windowtext;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
Optimization<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">How the
problem of grooming of higher
layer network traffic over optical trails is any different from the
problem of
traffic grooming in TDM (e.g. VC12 over VC4)? I mean this is a general
problem
of inter-layer relationship. I suggest moving all higher layer network
considerations out of scope of the draft and focusing on specifics of
the OCh layer.</span></font></p>
  </div>
</blockquote>
--&gt; Some of my co-authors agree with you on moving this section
out.&nbsp; The reason that I put it in was that the optical "Traffic
Grooming" problem has received a fair amount of attention in the
research and general technical literature and is also a driver for the
use of ROADMs (optical bypass).&nbsp; I guess in general we've got the
following inter-related problems: (a) virtual network topology design,
(b) lower layer connection routing, (c) higher layer flow routing. In
our case (b) is the RWA problem, which is fairly difficult in its own
right. I guess I should look closely at the MLN/MRN work and see if a
specific example that includes RWA is mentioned.&nbsp; If so then I'd feel
fine removing this section from the document.<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:DF7F96101FAF2A4E8856AAFB001E07C77756A1@atl-srv-mail.atl.advaoptical.com"
 type="cite">
  <div class="Section1">
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">2.
Considering wavelength conversion inevitably
brings to the problem of looped paths, which is a completely new ball
game in
path computation, and I am surprised that the issue was never mentioned
in the
draft.</span></font></p>
  </div>
</blockquote>
--&gt; How is this different from the "looping" that can occur with a
TDM multiplexer in a drop and continue mode?&nbsp; Also in these two circuit
cases (TDM, and optical) do we have the same danger as in the packet
case where looping traffic can greatly degrade other flows.&nbsp; Was there
some general looping concerns already published for GMPLS with respect
to circuits?&nbsp; <br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:DF7F96101FAF2A4E8856AAFB001E07C77756A1@atl-srv-mail.atl.advaoptical.com"
 type="cite">
  <div class="Section1">
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">Igor<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <div>
  <div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font
 color="black" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; color: windowtext;">
  <hr tabindex="-1" align="center" size="3" width="100%"></span></font></div>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: windowtext; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font
 color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: windowtext;"> Greg
Bernstein [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gregb@grotto-networking.com">mailto:gregb@grotto-networking.com</a>] <br>
  <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday,
September 26,
2007 7:42 PM<br>
  <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> ccamp; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pce@ietf.org">pce@ietf.org</a><br>
  <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> [Pce] Some
key issues
with Wavelength Switched Optical Networks...</span></font><font
 color="black"><span style="color: windowtext;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
 size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
 size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Hi folks, I haven't seen too
many comments on our
draft "Framework for GMPLS and PCE Control of Wavelength Switched
Optical
Networks" ( <a moz-do-not-send="true"
 href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt</a>).
So I figured I'd point out some potentially controversial issues that
the draft
brings up. <br>
  <br>
(a) The draft brings up models for the following WDM network elements:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <ol start="1" type="1">
    <li class="MsoNormal" style=""><font color="black"
 face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">WDM
links<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
    <li class="MsoNormal" style=""><font color="black"
 face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Optical
transmitters<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
    <li class="MsoNormal" style=""><font color="black"
 face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Wavelength
Converters and OEO regenerators<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
    <li class="MsoNormal" style=""><font color="black"
 face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">ROADMs,
FOADMs, optical splitters and combiners.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
  </ol>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
 size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; For items (3) and (4) we
are taking
the modeling lead rather than some other SDO.&nbsp; And for ROADMs, in
particular, we going beyond the classic ITU-T "fabric" model (M.3100)
which has been the mainstay of any connection oriented switch (TDM,
ATM, MPLS).<br>
  <br>
(b) The draft brings up three (not one, not two, but three) different
computational models for RWA which can impact GMPLS and PCE protocols:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <ol start="1" type="1">
    <li class="MsoNormal" style=""><font color="black"
 face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">A
single PCE computing both the path and wavelength<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
    <li class="MsoNormal" style=""><font color="black"
 face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Two
distinct PCEs, where one computes the path, and a different PCE
computes the wavelength assignment<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
    <li class="MsoNormal" style=""><font color="black"
 face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">A PCE
computes the path and wavelength assignment is accomplished in a
distributed fashion via signaling (e.g., using label set objects)<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
  </ol>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
 size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Do we really need all
three models?<br>
  <br>
(c) G.709 includes the Optical Multiplex Section and Optical Channels.&nbsp;
RFC4238 was aimed at GMPLS extensions for G.709&nbsp; (Optical Transport
Network) control.&nbsp; Weren't we finished with all this optical stuff
years
ago?<br>
  <br>
I'd like to think the draft answers some of these questions.&nbsp; I also
think
that network element models and the process models are important enough
to
warrant this separate framework document.&nbsp; Your opinions are solicited.<br>
  <br>
Regards<br>
  <br>
Greg B.<br>
  <br>
  <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">-- <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">===================================================<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  </div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

</pre>
</body>
</html>

--------------090301070903080006080809--



Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:37:22 +0000
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Subject: RE: [Pce] Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical Networks...
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:36:52 +0200
Message-ID: <1F2FBF50FB955441A11316BAE835CED4042D142B@xmb-ams-338.emea.cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Pce] Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical Networks...
Thread-Index: AcgAl5KnD0dbOEQxQX+EILfgiGPP2AAvoJ3A
From: "Giovanni Martinelli (giomarti)" <giomarti@cisco.com>
To: "Greg Bernstein" <gregb@grotto-networking.com>, "ccamp" <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <pce@ietf.org>
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Hi Greg,
=20
Sorry for the delay in replying. I'm working on this topic since a while =
so yes, it's interesting. Before going on specific issue I would have =
some question/clarification regarding the draft itself.=20
=20
=20
* Within Abstract and the following.
You don't talk about Optical Cross Connects (OXC) is something missing =
or understated somewhere?
=20
=20
* Section 3.1 where you state:=20
"A fixed mapping between the=20
GMPLS label space and these ITU-T WDM grids as proposed in [Otani] "
Does it implies a sort of network level label space? How relate with =
usual local label significance?
=20
=20
* Section 3.4 Wavelength Converters=20
"Current or envisioned contexts for wavelength converters are : ..."
Could we think to a description/model for wavelength converter that is =
technology agnostic? Simply something like: full conversion capability, =
partial conversion capability with some constrains, and may be others.
=20
=20
* Section 3.4. the following:=20
"4. Wavelength converters that are O-E-O based will have a restriction=20
based on the modulation format and transmission speed"=20
Not clear to me the type of restriction here when OEO happens... =
probably I'm missing what you mean here.
=20
=20
* Section 4.1 when you talk about Lightpath temporal characteristics:
"Lightpath connection duration has typically been thought of as=20
approximately three time frames: "=20
and the following you define: dynamics, pseudo-static, static.
Why there's a need of this classification? When you us Short/long is =
compared to what?
=20
=20
minor typo on your mail below: point (c) rfc4328 (not 4238) right?
=20
Thanks,
Giovanni


=20

________________________________

	From: Greg Bernstein [mailto:gregb@grotto-networking.com]=20
	Sent: gioved=EC 27 settembre 2007 1.42
	To: ccamp; pce@ietf.org
	Subject: [Pce] Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical =
Networks...
=09
=09
	Hi folks, I haven't seen too many comments on our draft "Framework for =
GMPLS and PCE Control of Wavelength Switched Optical Networks" ( =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-swit=
ched-01.txt). So I figured I'd point out some potentially controversial =
issues that the draft brings up.=20
=09
	(a) The draft brings up models for the following WDM network elements:
=09

	1.	WDM links=20
	2.	Optical transmitters
	=09
	3.	Wavelength Converters and OEO regenerators=20
	4.	ROADMs, FOADMs, optical splitters and combiners.=20

	    For items (3) and (4) we are taking the modeling lead rather than =
some other SDO.  And for ROADMs, in particular, we going beyond the =
classic ITU-T "fabric" model (M.3100) which has been the mainstay of any =
connection oriented switch (TDM, ATM, MPLS).
=09
	(b) The draft brings up three (not one, not two, but three) different =
computational models for RWA which can impact GMPLS and PCE protocols:
=09

	1.	A single PCE computing both the path and wavelength=20
	2.	Two distinct PCEs, where one computes the path, and a different PCE =
computes the wavelength assignment=20
	3.	A PCE computes the path and wavelength assignment is accomplished in =
a distributed fashion via signaling (e.g., using label set objects)=20

	    Do we really need all three models?
=09
	(c) G.709 includes the Optical Multiplex Section and Optical Channels.  =
RFC4238 was aimed at GMPLS extensions for G.709  (Optical Transport =
Network) control.  Weren't we finished with all this optical stuff years =
ago?
=09
	I'd like to think the draft answers some of these questions.  I also =
think that network element models and the process models are important =
enough to warrant this separate framework document.  Your opinions are =
solicited.
=09
	Regards
=09
	Greg B.
=09
	--=20
	=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
	Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
=09


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3157" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY text=3D#000000 bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Hi =
Greg,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New"></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New">Sorry for the=20
delay in replying. I'm working on this topic since a while so yes, it's=20
interesting. Before going on specific issue I would have some=20
question/clarification regarding the draft itself. </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>* Within =
Abstract and=20
the following.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>You =
don't talk about=20
Optical Cross Connects (OXC) is something missing or understated=20
somewhere?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New"></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Courier New">* =
Section 3.1=20
where you state: </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Courier New">"A =
fixed mapping=20
between the </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>GMPLS =
label space and=20
these ITU-T WDM grids as proposed in [Otani] "</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Does it =
implies a sort=20
of network level label space? How relate with usual local label=20
significance?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Courier New">* =
Section 3.4=20
Wavelength Converters </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>"Current =
or envisioned=20
contexts for wavelength converters are : ..."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Could =
we&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D312013122-27092007>think to </SPAN>a description/model for =
wavelength=20
converter that is technology agnostic?&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D312013122-27092007>S</SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D312013122-27092007>imply=20
s</SPAN>omething like: full conversion capability, partial conversion =
capability=20
with some constrains, and may be others.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New"></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Courier New">* =
Section 3.4. the=20
following: </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New">"4. Wavelength=20
converters that are O-E-O based will have a restriction =
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New">based on the=20
modulation format and transmission speed" </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Not =
clear to me the type=20
of restriction here when OEO happens... probably I'm missing what you =
mean=20
here.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>* =
Section 4.1 when you=20
talk about Lightpath temporal characteristics:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New">"Lightpath=20
connection duration has typically been thought of as =
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New">approximately=20
three time frames: " </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>and the =
following you=20
define: dynamics, pseudo-static, static.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Why =
there=92s a need of=20
this classification? When you us Short/long is compared to =
what?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D312013122-27092007><FONT =
face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>minor typo on your mail below: point (c) rfc4328 (not 4238)=20
right?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>Giovanni</FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Greg Bernstein=20
  [mailto:gregb@grotto-networking.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> gioved=EC 27 =
settembre=20
  2007 1.42<BR><B>To:</B> ccamp; pce@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Pce] =
Some key=20
  issues with Wavelength Switched Optical =
Networks...<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>Hi folks, I haven't seen too many comments on our draft =
"Framework=20
  for GMPLS and PCE Control of Wavelength Switched Optical Networks" ( =
<A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelen=
gth-switched-01.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-=
ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt</A>).=20
  So I figured I'd point out some potentially controversial issues that =
the=20
  draft brings up. <BR><BR>(a) The draft brings up models for the =
following WDM=20
  network elements:<BR>
  <OL>
    <LI>WDM links=20
    <LI>Optical transmitters<BR>
    <LI>Wavelength Converters and OEO regenerators=20
    <LI>ROADMs, FOADMs, optical splitters and combiners.=20
  </LI></OL>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; For items (3) and (4) we are taking the =
modeling=20
  lead rather than some other SDO.&nbsp; And for ROADMs, in particular, =
we going=20
  beyond the classic ITU-T "fabric" model (M.3100) which has been the =
mainstay=20
  of any connection oriented switch (TDM, ATM, MPLS).<BR><BR>(b) The =
draft=20
  brings up three (not one, not two, but three) different computational =
models=20
  for RWA which can impact GMPLS and PCE protocols:<BR>
  <OL>
    <LI>A single PCE computing both the path and wavelength=20
    <LI>Two distinct PCEs, where one computes the path, and a different =
PCE=20
    computes the wavelength assignment=20
    <LI>A PCE computes the path and wavelength assignment is =
accomplished in a=20
    distributed fashion via signaling (e.g., using label set objects)=20
  </LI></OL>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Do we really need all three =
models?<BR><BR>(c)=20
  G.709 includes the Optical Multiplex Section and Optical =
Channels.&nbsp;=20
  RFC4238 was aimed at GMPLS extensions for G.709&nbsp; (Optical =
Transport=20
  Network) control.&nbsp; Weren't we finished with all this optical =
stuff years=20
  ago?<BR><BR>I'd like to think the draft answers some of these =
questions.&nbsp;=20
  I also think that network element models and the process models are =
important=20
  enough to warrant this separate framework document.&nbsp; Your =
opinions are=20
  solicited.<BR><BR>Regards<BR><BR>Greg B.<BR><PRE class=3Dmoz-signature =
cols=3D"72">--=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:36:29 +0000
Message-ID: <02f801c8013d$74ed4a00$0200a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Hamid Ould-Brahim" <hbrahim@nortel.com>, <takeda.tomonori@lab.ntt.co.jp>
Subject: Fw: Four L1VPN working group last calls
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 20:34:36 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi CCAMP working group,

The L1VPN working group is holding a last call on several drafts. This is 
clearly all related to the work of CCAMP and we would welcome any further 
thoughts during the last call. By preference, please send comments to the 
L1VPN list, but anything sent to the CCAMP list will be forwarded.

Thanks,
Adrian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <l1vpn@ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 8:17 PM
Subject: [L1vpn] Four working group last calls


> Hi,
>
> Now that there is a bit of peace and quiet on the CCAMP last calls, we 
> would like to hold L1VPN last calls on four I-Ds:
>
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l1vpn-applicability-basic-mode-02.txt
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l1vpn-basic-mode-02.txt
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l1vpn-bgp-auto-discovery-02.txt
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l1vpn-ospf-auto-discovery-03.txt
>
> Since there are four drafts, we will make this a three week last call. It 
> will complete at 12 noon GMT on 18th October 2007.
>
> We will be notifying the IDR, OSPF, and CCAMP working groups about this 
> last call.
>
> Thanks,
> Adrian, Hamid, and Tomonori
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> L1vpn mailing list
> L1vpn@lists.ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/l1vpn
> 





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 13:18:28 +0000
Message-ID: <01ce01c80108$8122b240$0200a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Magnus Westerlund" <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
Subject: Fw: Guidelines for protocol designers using UDP
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:15:10 +0100
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Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,

Those of you who are LMP implementers and deployers may want to look at this 
I-D and make comments:
- on the I-D direct to the tsvwg
- on RFC4204 to CCAMP

Thanks,
Adrian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Magnus Westerlund" <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
To: "Internet Area" <int-area@ietf.org>; <ops-area@ietf.org>; 
<discuss@apps.ietf.org>; <routing-discussion@ietf.org>; "SAAG" 
<saag@mit.edu>
Cc: "tsvwg" <tsvwg@ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 12:33 PM
Subject: Guidelines for protocol designers using UDP


> Hi,
>
> In the TSVWG we have been developing a guidelines document for UDP. It
> is intended for protocol designers that consider using UDP in their
> protocol. We do hope that it will help remove some of the misconception
> that UDP is a simple protocol to use. It might look that way because
> most of the features necessary for being acceptable to deploy on the
> general internet needs to be specified by the one using UDP. It is also
> something that the Transport ADs already started using as help in
> explaining why and what to fix when we put a DISCUSS on your document
> that is using UDP.
>
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tsvwg-udp-guidelines-03.txt
>
> So TSVWG is still working on this document but we are now considering it
> quite complete. So we are looking for feedback from you. Are there
> things that are unclear, missing, wrong, etc. Please provide your
> feedback to TSVWG (tsvwg@ietf.org).
>
> Thanks
>
> Magnus Westerlund
>
> IETF Transport Area Director & TSVWG Chair
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM/M
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
> Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
> S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:52:33 +0000
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Subject: RE: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:48:59 +0100
Message-ID: <52A0FF47062B0B4C80862F2526E02409049197A1@enfimail2.datcon.co.uk>
Thread-Topic: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt
Thread-Index: AcgAR8TFF8MyefNJSeiCAiwv8kJx2gAlOmGA
From: "Alan Davey" <Alan.Davey@dataconnection.com>
To: "Acee Lindem" <acee@redback.com>, "Mach Chen" <mach@huawei.com>
Cc: "OSPF List" <ospf@ietf.org>, "Vishwas Manral" <vishwas@ipinfusion.com>, "CCAMP List" <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>

Guys

Apologies for the late response. =20

I basically agree with Acee.

*	It makes sense to define a new OSPFv3-TE LSA type to carry the
AS connectivity information.  I think that this would probably provide a
better and more back compatible way to identify the new advertisements
than defining a new link type value.

*	It also makes sense to use the same approach in OSPFv2 and
OSPFv3 and so a new OSPFv2 opaque type may be the way to go.=20

My other comments on the draft, from an OSPFv3 TE perspective, are as
follows.

*	On the subject of identifying the other end of the inter-AS
link.

	-  The Link ID sub-TLV is not suitable as it SHOULD be ignored
on receipt by an OSPFv3 TE implementation. =20

	-  The Neighbor ID sub-TLV MUST be used instead.  This sub-TLV
contains the neighbor's interface ID and the neighbor's 32-bit Router ID
(note that this is NOT the TE Router ID).

	-  Use of the Neighbor ID sub-TLV requires configuration at the
ASBR of the remote ASBR's interface ID and the 32-bit Router ID.

	-  You may want to advertise a global-scope IPv6 address for the
router at the other end of an inter-AS link in a Remote Interface IPv6
Address Sub-TLV.  This would also need to be configured.

*	As Acee pointed out, there is currently no OSPFv3 TE equivalent
to the Type 11 Opaque LSA, that is, there is no defined LSA for flooding
AS scope TE information.

*	The wording needs to be changed for OSPFv3 TE when describing
the contents of a "proxy" advertisement for the backward direction of an
inter-AD TE link.

Regards


Alan Davey

------------------------------------
Alan Davey
Data Connection Ltd
Tel:   +44 20 8366 1177
Fax:   +44 20 8363 1039
Email: Alan.Davey@dataconnection.com
Web:   http://www.dataconnection.com


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Acee Lindem [mailto:acee@redback.com]=20
> Sent: 26 September 2007 15:15
> To: Mach Chen
> Cc: OSPF List; Vishwas Manral; Alan Davey; CCAMP List
> Subject: Re: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of=20
> draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt
>=20
> Hi Mach,
>=20
> On Sep 26, 2007, at 6:10 AM, Mach Chen wrote:
>=20
> > Hi Acee,
> >
> > Pls see inline
> >
> >
> > On 2007-09-25, at 21:05:49 Acee Lindem wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Mach,
> >> Thanks for reviewing.
> >>
> >> On Sep 25, 2007, at 4:24 AM, Mach Chen wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Acee and other authors,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Some questions to ospfv3-traffic
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 1.       In this ospfv3-traffic document, a new LSA, Intra-Area-TE
> >>> LSA, is defined to advertise IPv6 TE information. From=20
> name of this=20
> >>> new LSA, IMHO, it is limited to be used for Intra-Area TE=20
> only. So,=20
> >>> if there are some underlying extensions to ospfv3-traffic, e.g.
> >>> Inter-AS TE, it is a little bit strange to re-use the=20
> Intra-Area-TE=20
> >>> LSA, or it has to define a new LSA. So, can we change its name to=20
> >>> something like "OSPFv3 TE LSA"?
> >> It would be if we had intended it to carry AS wide information.
> >> However, it was not initially intended for this. The=20
> initial thought=20
> >> was that we would do a better job for OSPFv3 and define=20
> separate LSA=20
> >> types for intra-area, inter-area, and AS external TE LSAs.=20
> Thoughts=20
> >> on this (copied ccamp as well)?
> >
> > So, the conclusion is that a new LSA(may be called Inter-AS-TE LSA)=20
> > has to be defined for advertising inter-AS TE information=20
> in support=20
> > of OSPFv3 TE, am I right?
> >
> >> I guess, IMHO, this discrepancy
> >> exposes the choice of a new link type for inter-AS=20
> connectivity as a=20
> >> bit of a hack.
> >>
> >
> > For OSPFv3 TE(separate LSAs are used) is YES. But as to OSPFv2 TE,=20
> > IMHO, there should be a new link type to identify an=20
> inter-AS link, or=20
> > we need another new LSA.
>=20
>=20
> It seems to me that if we do add the link in your draft, then=20
> it should be done the same in OSPFv2 and OSPFv3. Advertising=20
> it as a new link type is one way to advertise inter-AS=20
> connectivity. However, it isn't necessarily a link. This=20
> seems to me to be more of a semantical discrepancy than the=20
> name of the LSA. In section 4, I notice that at least for=20
> OSPFv2 the draft says the new link may be advertised in=20
> either a type 11 opaque LSA or type 10 opaque LSA. Given the=20
> maturity of RFC 3630, it almost seems to me that we should=20
> allocate a new LSA opaque type for this purpose.
>=20
> What is the status of draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-=20
> extension-01.txt? I know at the OSPF meeting there were a=20
> number of people who questioned whether or not it was necessary.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Acee
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 2.       Section 2.
> >>>
> >>> "The format of the TLVs within the body of a router=20
> information LSA=20
> >>> is the same as the format used by the Traffic Engineering=20
> Extensions=20
> >>> to OSPF [TE]."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> What's "a router information LSA"?  Or should it be "an=20
> Intra-Area-=20
> >>> TE LSA" ?
> >>
> >> Yes. Good catch. I'll fix this.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Acee
> >
> >
> > Best regards,		=09
> > Mach Chen
> >
>=20
>=20



Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 23:54:50 +0000
Message-ID: <46FAEE2C.5040008@grotto-networking.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:41:32 -0700
From: Greg Bernstein <gregb@grotto-networking.com>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ccamp <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, pce@ietf.org
Subject: Some key issues with Wavelength Switched Optical Networks...
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090500030104070206070906"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------090500030104070206070906
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi folks, I haven't seen too many comments on our draft "Framework for 
GMPLS and PCE Control of Wavelength Switched Optical Networks" ( 
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt). 
So I figured I'd point out some potentially controversial issues that 
the draft brings up.

(a) The draft brings up models for the following WDM network elements:

   1. WDM links
   2. Optical transmitters
   3. Wavelength Converters and OEO regenerators
   4. ROADMs, FOADMs, optical splitters and combiners.

    For items (3) and (4) we are taking the modeling lead rather than 
some other SDO.  And for ROADMs, in particular, we going beyond the 
classic ITU-T "fabric" model (M.3100) which has been the mainstay of any 
connection oriented switch (TDM, ATM, MPLS).

(b) The draft brings up three (not one, not two, but three) different 
computational models for RWA which can impact GMPLS and PCE protocols:

   1. A single PCE computing both the path and wavelength
   2. Two distinct PCEs, where one computes the path, and a different
      PCE computes the wavelength assignment
   3. A PCE computes the path and wavelength assignment is accomplished
      in a distributed fashion via signaling (e.g., using label set objects)

    Do we really need all three models?

(c) G.709 includes the Optical Multiplex Section and Optical Channels.  
RFC4238 was aimed at GMPLS extensions for G.709  (Optical Transport 
Network) control.  Weren't we finished with all this optical stuff years 
ago?

I'd like to think the draft answers some of these questions.  I also 
think that network element models and the process models are important 
enough to warrant this separate framework document.  Your opinions are 
solicited.

Regards

Greg B.

-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



--------------090500030104070206070906
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Hi folks, I haven't seen too many comments on our draft "Framework for
GMPLS and PCE Control of Wavelength Switched Optical
Networks" ( <a
 href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt</a>).
So I figured I'd point out some potentially controversial issues that
the draft brings up. <br>
<br>
(a) The draft brings up models for the following WDM network elements:<br>
<ol>
  <li>WDM links</li>
  <li>Optical transmitters<br>
  </li>
  <li>Wavelength Converters and OEO regenerators</li>
  <li>ROADMs, FOADMs, optical splitters and combiners.</li>
</ol>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; For items (3) and (4) we are taking the modeling lead rather than
some other SDO.&nbsp; And for ROADMs, in particular, we going beyond the
classic ITU-T "fabric" model (M.3100) which has been the mainstay of
any connection oriented switch (TDM, ATM, MPLS).<br>
<br>
(b) The draft brings up three (not one, not two, but three) different
computational models for RWA which can impact GMPLS and PCE protocols:<br>
<ol>
  <li>A single PCE computing both the path and wavelength</li>
  <li>Two distinct PCEs, where one computes the path, and a different
PCE computes the wavelength assignment</li>
  <li>A PCE computes the path and wavelength assignment is accomplished
in a distributed fashion via signaling (e.g., using label set objects)</li>
</ol>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Do we really need all three models?<br>
<br>
(c) G.709 includes the Optical Multiplex Section and Optical Channels.&nbsp;
RFC4238 was aimed at GMPLS extensions for G.709&nbsp; (Optical Transport
Network) control.&nbsp; Weren't we finished with all this optical stuff
years ago?<br>
<br>
I'd like to think the draft answers some of these questions.&nbsp; I also
think that network element models and the process models are important
enough to warrant this separate framework document.&nbsp; Your opinions are
solicited.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
Greg B.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

</pre>
</body>
</html>

--------------090500030104070206070906--



Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 14:18:44 +0000
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3)
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Message-Id: <D47BE6BA-1A96-4B3D-BA80-C5023A2E1F65@redback.com>
Cc: OSPF List <ospf@ietf.org>, Vishwas Manral <vishwas@ipinfusion.com>, Alan Davey <Alan.Davey@dataconnection.com>, CCAMP List <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: Acee Lindem <acee@redback.com>
Subject: Re: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:14:36 -0400
To: Mach Chen <mach@huawei.com>

Hi Mach,

On Sep 26, 2007, at 6:10 AM, Mach Chen wrote:

> Hi Acee,
>
> Pls see inline
>
>
> On 2007-09-25, at 21:05:49 Acee Lindem wrote:
>
>> Hi Mach,
>> Thanks for reviewing.
>>
>> On Sep 25, 2007, at 4:24 AM, Mach Chen wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Acee and other authors,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Some questions to ospfv3-traffic
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1.       In this ospfv3-traffic document, a new LSA, Intra-Area-TE
>>> LSA, is defined to advertise IPv6 TE information. =46rom name of =
this
>>> new LSA, IMHO, it is limited to be used for Intra-Area TE only. So,
>>> if there are some underlying extensions to ospfv3-traffic, e.g.
>>> Inter-AS TE, it is a little bit strange to re-use the Intra-Area-TE
>>> LSA, or it has to define a new LSA. So, can we change its name to
>>> something like =93OSPFv3 TE LSA=94?
>> It would be if we had intended it to carry AS wide information.
>> However, it was not initially intended for this. The initial thought
>> was that we would do a better job for OSPFv3 and define separate LSA
>> types for intra-area, inter-area, and AS external TE LSAs. Thoughts
>> on this (copied ccamp as well)?
>
> So, the conclusion is that a new LSA(may be called Inter-AS-TE LSA) =20=

> has to be defined for advertising inter-AS TE information in =20
> support of OSPFv3 TE, am I right?
>
>> I guess, IMHO, this discrepancy
>> exposes the choice of a new link type for inter-AS connectivity as a
>> bit of a hack.
>>
>
> For OSPFv3 TE(separate LSAs are used) is YES. But as to OSPFv2 TE, =20
> IMHO, there should be a new link type to identify an inter-AS link, =20=

> or we need another new LSA.


It seems to me that if we do add the link in your draft, then it =20
should be done the same in OSPFv2 and OSPFv3. Advertising it as a new =20=

link type is one way to advertise inter-AS connectivity. However, it =20
isn't necessarily a link. This seems to me to be more of a semantical =20=

discrepancy than the name of the LSA. In section 4, I notice that at =20
least for OSPFv2 the draft says the new link may be advertised in =20
either a type 11 opaque LSA or type 10 opaque LSA. Given the maturity =20=

of RFC 3630, it almost seems to me that we should allocate a new LSA =20
opaque type for this purpose.

What is the status of draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-=20
extension-01.txt? I know at the OSPF meeting there were a number of =20
people who questioned whether or not it was necessary.

Thanks,
Acee





>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2.       Section 2.
>>>
>>> =93The format of the TLVs within the body of a router information =
LSA
>>> is the same as the format used by the Traffic Engineering
>>> Extensions to OSPF [TE].=94
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What=92s =93a router information LSA=94?  Or should it be =93an =
Intra-Area-
>>> TE LSA=94 ?
>>
>> Yes. Good catch. I'll fix this.
>
> Thanks.
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Acee
>
>
> Best regards,		=09
> Mach Chen
>




Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:48:02 +0000
Message-ID: <46FA469A.5090708@cn.kddilabs.jp>
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:46:34 +0900
From: ogaki <ke-oogaki@cn.kddilabs.jp>
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Cc: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>, Tomohiro Otani <otani@kddilabs.jp>
Subject: Re: Plans for GELS work in CCAMP
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi All,

Sorry for this late reply.
We are interesd in this activity and can support this work as an operator=
.

Regards,
Kenichi

Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI) wrote:

>Hi Adrian hi Deborah,
>                     I think that this is a very good way to proceed I a=
lso think the people in the DT are the right ones.
>
>I'd like to contribute this work so DT guys please fill free to contact =
me.
>
>Best Regards
>
>Diego
> =20
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Beh=
alf
>>Of Adrian Farrel
>>Sent: mercoled=EC 5 settembre 2007 11.51
>>To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
>>Cc: Ross Callon
>>Subject: Plans for GELS work in CCAMP
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>We owe you a plan for starting the GELS work in CCAMP.
>>
>>As you may have seen, we have just sent a request to the ADs to push
>>through
>>our recharter as discussed on the mailing list. The ADs have already
>>indicated their support, so hopefully this will be fairly smooth.
>>
>>We have also been talking with Don and Loa about starting work on the G=
ELS
>>drafts that we will accept into the working group as a starting point.
>>(Other drafts can be added as needed.)
>>
>>1. "GMPLS Extensions for PE to PE Ethernet Label Switched Paths(LSPs)"
>>This document is the generic work:
>>- Introduction
>>- Rationale for GMPLS Control of Ethernet
>>- Generic functional requirements (no data plane specifics!)
>>- Applicability of existing protocol elements
>>- New generic protocol elements (nothing specific to the data plane)
>>
>>2. "GMPLS control of P2P TE for PBB-TE (802.1Qay)"
>>Mainly references to the generic document.
>>Some protocol specifics:
>>- Code points (i.e. IANA section)
>>- Label allocation and swapping rules
>>Not a large document.
>>
>>Other drafts that we might also see:
>>
>>3. "GMPLS control of P2P TE for IEEE802.1Q"
>>Another data plane-specific draft, like 2, but for a different data pla=
ne
>>
>>4. Applicability Statement
>>A concise description of how and why to apply GMPLS to Ethernet.
>>Probably not written until after the protocol work is done.
>>
>>We propose a relatively small design team to get this work started.
>>   Loa Andersson
>>   Lou Berger
>>   Don Fedyk
>>   George Swallow
>>
>>We are NOT trying to exclude anyone from the work, and we make a couple=
 of
>>observations:
>>
>>- A design team is just a group of people working on a
>>  draft.
>>- Anyone and everyone is welcome to write a draft.
>>- We feel that an initial design should be small to make
>>   rapid initial progress.
>>- We welcome (and expect!) full and detailed contribution
>>   on the mailing list as this work progresses.
>>- Everyone who contributes to a draft should be appropriately
>>   recognised in the draft.
>>
>>Last point:
>>I propose to close the GELS mailing list now.
>>
>>Hope this is all satisfactory to you.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Adrian and Deborah
>>
>>
>>   =20
>>
>
>
>
>
> =20
>





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:14:09 +0000
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:10:52 +0800
From: Mach Chen <mach@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt
To: Acee Lindem <acee@redback.com>
Cc: OSPF List <ospf@ietf.org>, Vishwas Manral <vishwas@ipinfusion.com>, Alan Davey <Alan.Davey@dataconnection.com>, CCAMP List <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Message-id: <0JOZ003PZ0AKV7@szxga01-in.huawei.com>
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Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:12:58 +0000
Message-ID: <003801c7ffb8$86c94070$0200a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Kohei Shiomoto" <Shiomoto.Kohei@lab.ntt.co.jp>, "Dimitri Papadimitriou" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, "Jean-Louis Le Roux" <jeanlouis.leroux@orange-ftgroup.com>, "Martin Vigoureux" <Martin.Vigoureux@alcatel-lucent.fr>, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>
Subject: Last call completed on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-reqs-05.txt
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 22:10:30 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,

Working group last call completed on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-reqs-05.txt 
and draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-eval-03.txt with a few comments to consider.

The question was raised about the naming of "virtual TE links." It was 
suggested that "potential" be considered as a more appropriate word, partly 
because of the existing overload of "virtual" in various contexts, and 
partly to tie in with the ASON use of terminology. Could the authors please 
think about this and propose a resolution.

We also received some comments from the ITU-T in their liaison 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/368/. They raise some issues for our 
consideration and the authors need to address these points so that they can 
update the I-D if necessary, and so we can respond to the ITU-T as 
necessary.

Adaptation
- They suggest that we should include a definition of Adaptation.
- They suggest advertising the adaptation capability/ies of a link in place 
of the switching capabilities. I am confused by this because I would have 
thought that both pieces of information are needed. It may be that the ITU-T 
are assuming that the technology layer is known a priori. It is certainly 
the case that multiple switching or adaptation capabilities should be able 
to be advertised on a single link, and I think this is in the I-Ds, but 
maybe it needs clarification.
- Abstract representations of layers and adaptations may be advantageous. 
Although this might be a solution-specific issue, if there are requirements 
they should be drawn out.

Virtual Node
The ITU-T suggests that the virtual node model might be applied as a 
solution architecture alongside the virtual links. Maybe the requirements 
draft could include some comments on this.

Thanks,
Adrian






Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:40:42 +0000
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt 
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:39:24 -0500
Message-ID: <449B2580D802A443A923DABF3EAB82AF0F210A83@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com>
Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt 
Thread-Index: Acf/U08EODVTrmqEReyl7biQI8t9VAALh3SA
From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com>
To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Jean Philippe Vasseur" <jvasseur@cisco.com>, "Jean-Louis Le Roux" <jeanlouis.leroux@orange-ftgroup.com>

Agree, I don't think another WG Last Call is necessary. As Adrian notes,
interested parties should review the updated document.

Thanks for all the editing-
Deborah=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]=20
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 4:55 AM
To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Cc: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS; 'Jean Philippe Vasseur'; Jean-Louis Le
Roux
Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt=20

Hi,

This new revision addresses two IESG DISCUSSes.

The first, from Sam Hartman, gives rise to a new paragraph (the first=20
paragraph in section 8) to point out certain security concerns with
RSVP-TE.

The second, from Russ Housley, introduces the GenArt review by Eric Gray
and=20
gives rise to a good number of editorial changes. Nearly all of these
are of=20
no technical substance comprising the addition of text for clarification

(especially where the old text said "SHOULD" and there was no
description of=20
why or how an implementation might vary from the SHOULD). In section 3.1

there is, however, a set of changes that, while they don't change the
intent=20
of the authors, do make practical changes to the interpretation of the=20
protocol procedures - essentially, we have changed some of the RFC 2119=20
language.

In my opinion, these changes don't warrant a further working group last=20
call, although I would encourage interested parties to read carefully.=20
However, on this I-D I need to recuse myself from the decision process
and=20
hand over to Deborah.

Thanks,
Adrian

----- Original Message -----=20
From: <Internet-Drafts@ietf.org>
To: <i-d-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:15 PM
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt


>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane=20
> Working Group of the IETF.
>
> Title : Inter domain Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and
Generalized=20
> MPLS (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering - RSVP-TE extensions
> Author(s) : A. Ayyangar, et al.
> Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt
> Pages : 22
> Date : 2007-9-24
>
> This document describes procedures and protocol extensions for the
>   use of Resource ReserVation Protocol Traffic Engineering (RSVP-TE)
>   signaling in Multiprotocol Label Switching Traffic Engineering
>   (MPLS-TE) packet networks and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) packet and
>   non-packet networks to support the establishment and maintenance of
>   Label Switched Paths that cross domain boundaries.
>
>   For the purpose of this document, a domain is considered to be any
>   collection of network elements within a common realm of address
space
>   or path computation responsibility. Examples of such domains include
>   Autonomous Systems, IGP routing areas, and GMPLS overlay networks.
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-t
e-07.txt
>
> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
> i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of
> the message.
> You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
> to change your subscription settings.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
> username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After
> logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> "get draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt".
>
> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>
> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
>
> Send a message to:
> mailserv@ietf.org.
> In the body type:
> "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt".
>
> NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
> feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
> a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers
> exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
> up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
> how to manipulate these messages.
>
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> Internet-Draft.
>=20





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:09:39 +0000
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-53--182531231
Message-Id: <FC8C47A0-10A1-46B6-897E-4FBECB8CB8FD@redback.com>
Cc: OSPF List <ospf@ietf.org>, Vishwas Manral <vishwas@ipinfusion.com>, Alan Davey <Alan.Davey@dataconnection.com>, CCAMP List <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
From: Acee Lindem <acee@redback.com>
Subject: Re: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:05:49 -0400
To: Mach Chen <mach@huawei.com>

--Apple-Mail-53--182531231
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Hi Mach,
Thanks for reviewing.

On Sep 25, 2007, at 4:24 AM, Mach Chen wrote:

> Hi Acee and other authors,
>
>
>
> Some questions to ospfv3-traffic
>
>
>
> 1.       In this ospfv3-traffic document, a new LSA, Intra-Area-TE =20
> LSA, is defined to advertise IPv6 TE information. =46rom name of this =20=

> new LSA, IMHO, it is limited to be used for Intra-Area TE only. So, =20=

> if there are some underlying extensions to ospfv3-traffic, e.g. =20
> Inter-AS TE, it is a little bit strange to re-use the Intra-Area-TE =20=

> LSA, or it has to define a new LSA. So, can we change its name to =20
> something like =93OSPFv3 TE LSA=94?
It would be if we had intended it to carry AS wide information. =20
However, it was not initially intended for this. The initial thought =20
was that we would do a better job for OSPFv3 and define separate LSA =20
types for intra-area, inter-area, and AS external TE LSAs. Thoughts =20
on this (copied ccamp as well)? I guess, IMHO, this discrepancy =20
exposes the choice of a new link type for inter-AS connectivity as a =20
bit of a hack.



>
>
> 2.       Section 2.
>
> =93The format of the TLVs within the body of a router information LSA =20=

> is the same as the format used by the Traffic Engineering =20
> Extensions to OSPF [TE].=94
>
>
>
> What=92s =93a router information LSA=94?  Or should it be =93an =
Intra-Area-=20
> TE LSA=94 ?

Yes. Good catch. I'll fix this.

Thanks,
Acee




--Apple-Mail-53--182531231
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<HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; =
-khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi Mach,=A0<DIV>Thanks for =
reviewing.=A0</DIV><DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On Sep 25, 2007, at 4:24 AM, Mach =
Chen wrote:</DIV><BR class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE =
type=3D"cite"><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Courier New; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: =
0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><O:SMARTTAGTYPE =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"chsdate"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"PersonName"><DIV class=3D"Section1"><P class=3D"MsoNormal"><FONT =
size=3D"1" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); =
font-family: Arial; ">Hi Acee and other authors,</SPAN><O:P =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; =
"></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class=3D"MsoNormal"><FONT size=3D"1" =
color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); "><O:P style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; "><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: =
Arial; ">=A0</SPAN></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class=3D"MsoNormal"><FONT =
size=3D"1" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); =
font-family: Arial; ">Some questions to ospfv3-traffic</SPAN><O:P =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; =
"></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class=3D"MsoNormal"><FONT size=3D"1" =
color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); "><O:P style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; "><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: =
Arial; ">=A0</SPAN></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3; =
font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; text-indent: -24px; =
"><FONT size=3D"1" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt; font-family:Arial;color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); text-indent: -24px; "><SPAN style=3D"mso-list:Ignore; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; text-indent: -24px; "><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: =
Arial; text-indent: -24px; ">1.</SPAN><FONT size=3D"1" face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><SPAN style=3D"font:7.0pt " times=3D"" new=3D"" roman";=3D"" =
color:=3D"" rgb(0,=3D"" 0,=3D"" 128);=3D"" font-family:=3D"" roman;=3D"" =
font-size:=3D"" 9.33333px;=3D"" text-indent:=3D"" -24px;=3D""><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: =
Times New Roman; font-size: 9.33333px; text-indent: -24px; ">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0 </SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D"1" =
color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); text-indent: -24px; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; text-indent: -24px; =
">In this ospfv3-traffic document, a new LSA, Intra-Area-TE LSA, is =
defined to advertise IPv6 TE information. =46rom name of this new LSA, =
IMHO, it is limited to be used for Intra-Area TE only. So, if there are =
some underlying extensions to ospfv3-traffic, e.g. Inter-AS TE, it is a =
little bit strange to re-use the Intra-Area-TE LSA, or it has to define =
a new LSA. So, can we change its name to something like =93OSPFv3 TE =
LSA=94?</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></=
SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV>It would be if we had intended it to carry AS =
wide information. However, it was not initially intended for this. The =
initial thought was that we would do a better job for OSPFv3 and define =
separate LSA types for intra-area, inter-area, and AS external TE LSAs. =
Thoughts on this (copied ccamp as well)? I guess, IMHO, this discrepancy =
exposes the choice of a new link type for inter-AS connectivity as a bit =
of a hack.=A0</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE =
type=3D"cite"><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Courier New; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: =
0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><O:SMARTTAGTYPE =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"chsdate"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"PersonName"><DIV class=3D"Section1"><P class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3; =
font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; text-indent: -24px; =
"><FONT size=3D"1" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); text-indent: -24px; "><O:P style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); =
font-family: Arial; text-indent: -24px; "></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><FONT size=3D"1" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 128); "><O:P style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); =
font-family: Arial; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; ">=A0</SPAN></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P=
 class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3; =
font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 16px; text-indent: -24px; =
"><FONT size=3D"1" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt; font-family:Arial;color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); text-indent: -24px; "><SPAN style=3D"mso-list:Ignore; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; text-indent: -24px; "><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: =
Arial; text-indent: -24px; ">2.</SPAN><FONT size=3D"1" face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><SPAN style=3D"font:7.0pt " times=3D"" new=3D"" roman";=3D"" =
color:=3D"" rgb(0,=3D"" 0,=3D"" 128);=3D"" font-family:=3D"" roman;=3D"" =
font-size:=3D"" 9.33333px;=3D"" text-indent:=3D"" -24px;=3D""><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: =
Times New Roman; font-size: 9.33333px; text-indent: -24px; ">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0 </SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D"1" =
color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); text-indent: -24px; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; text-indent: -24px; =
">Section 2.</SPAN><O:P style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: =
Arial; text-indent: -24px; "></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt; font-family: Times New =
Roman; font-size: 16px; "><FONT size=3D"1" color=3D"navy" =
face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); =
font-family: Arial; ">=93The format of the TLVs within the body of =
</SPAN><U style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; =
-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: underline; "><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: =
Arial; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: underline; ">a router =
information</SPAN></U><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; "> LSA is the same as the format =
used by the Traffic Engineering Extensions to OSPF [TE].=94=A0</SPAN><O:P =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; =
"></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: =
16px; "><FONT size=3D"1" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 128); "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; ">=A0</SPAN><O:P style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Arial; "></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt; font-family: Times New =
Roman; font-size: 16px; "><FONT size=3D"1" color=3D"navy" =
face=3D"Arial"><SPAN lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy; color: rgb(0, 0, =
128); "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); =
font-family: Arial; ">What=92s =93a router information LSA=94?=A0 Or =
should it be =93an Intra-Area-TE LSA=94 =
?</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></SPAN><=
/BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Yes. =
Good catch. I'll fix this.=A0</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Thanks,</DIV><DIV>Acee</DIV><=
DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE =
type=3D"cite"><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Courier New; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: =
0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><O:SMARTTAGTYPE =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"chsdate"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"PersonName"><DIV class=3D"Section1"><P class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: =
16px; "><FONT size=3D"1" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><SPAN =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 128); "><O:P style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 128); =
font-family: Arial; =
"></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></SPAN><=
/BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>=

--Apple-Mail-53--182531231--



Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:08:42 +0000
Message-ID: <041101c7ff53$45fbb240$0200a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "'Jean Philippe Vasseur'" <jvasseur@cisco.com>, "Jean-Louis Le Roux" <jeanlouis.leroux@orange-ftgroup.com>
Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt 
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:55:21 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,

This new revision addresses two IESG DISCUSSes.

The first, from Sam Hartman, gives rise to a new paragraph (the first 
paragraph in section 8) to point out certain security concerns with RSVP-TE.

The second, from Russ Housley, introduces the GenArt review by Eric Gray and 
gives rise to a good number of editorial changes. Nearly all of these are of 
no technical substance comprising the addition of text for clarification 
(especially where the old text said "SHOULD" and there was no description of 
why or how an implementation might vary from the SHOULD). In section 3.1 
there is, however, a set of changes that, while they don't change the intent 
of the authors, do make practical changes to the interpretation of the 
protocol procedures - essentially, we have changed some of the RFC 2119 
language.

In my opinion, these changes don't warrant a further working group last 
call, although I would encourage interested parties to read carefully. 
However, on this I-D I need to recuse myself from the decision process and 
hand over to Deborah.

Thanks,
Adrian

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Internet-Drafts@ietf.org>
To: <i-d-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:15 PM
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt


>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane 
> Working Group of the IETF.
>
> Title : Inter domain Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized 
> MPLS (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering - RSVP-TE extensions
> Author(s) : A. Ayyangar, et al.
> Filename : draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt
> Pages : 22
> Date : 2007-9-24
>
> This document describes procedures and protocol extensions for the
>   use of Resource ReserVation Protocol Traffic Engineering (RSVP-TE)
>   signaling in Multiprotocol Label Switching Traffic Engineering
>   (MPLS-TE) packet networks and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) packet and
>   non-packet networks to support the establishment and maintenance of
>   Label Switched Paths that cross domain boundaries.
>
>   For the purpose of this document, a domain is considered to be any
>   collection of network elements within a common realm of address space
>   or path computation responsibility. Examples of such domains include
>   Autonomous Systems, IGP routing areas, and GMPLS overlay networks.
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt
>
> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
> i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of
> the message.
> You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
> to change your subscription settings.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
> username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After
> logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> "get draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt".
>
> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>
> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
>
> Send a message to:
> mailserv@ietf.org.
> In the body type:
> "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt".
>
> NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
> feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
> a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers
> exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
> up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
> how to manipulate these messages.
>
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> Internet-Draft.
> 





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:08:34 +0000
Message-ID: <041401c7ff53$46cd8130$0200a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>
Cc: <dward@cisco.com>, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "WG Milestone Tracker" <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
Subject: Please publish draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-04
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 10:01:42 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0408_01C7FF5B.1288A3C0"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0408_01C7FF5B.1288A3C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	format=flowed;
	charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Ross,

Please take draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-04.txt through the 
IESG process for publication as an Informational RFC.

The proto-shepherd-write-up (TM) is attached.

Cheers,
Adrian 

------=_NextPart_000_0408_01C7FF5B.1288A3C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	format=flowed;
	name="draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-04-write-up.txt";
	reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-04-write-up.txt"

Proto-write-up for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-04

Suggest that this I-D is progressed in parallel with
draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts


> (1.a)  Who is the Document Shepherd for this document?  Has the
>        Document Shepherd personally reviewed this version of the
>        document and, in particular, does he or she believe this
>        version is ready for forwarding to the IESG for publication?

Adrian Farrel is the document shepherd.
He has personally reviewed the I-D and believes it is ready for
forwarding to the IESG for publication.

> (1.b)  Has the document had adequate review both from key WG members
>        and from key non-WG members?  Does the Document Shepherd have
>        any concerns about the depth or breadth of the reviews that
>        have been performed?

This is a fairly old document. In its early days it had substantial
review and discussion. More recently the level of input has tailed off
probably because the draft was largely complete.

Although the I-D has had no explicit review from the MPLS working group
most of the people concerned with the migration of MPLS-TE to GMPLS are
participants in CCAMP.

> (1.c)  Does the Document Shepherd have concerns that the document
>        needs more review from a particular or broader perspective,
>        e.g., security, operational complexity, someone familiar with
>        AAA, internationalization or XML?

No concerns.

> (1.d)  Does the Document Shepherd have any specific concerns or
>        issues with this document that the Responsible Area Director
>        and/or the IESG should be aware of?  For example, perhaps he
>        or she is uncomfortable with certain parts of the document, or
>        has concerns whether there really is a need for it.  In any
>        event, if the WG has discussed those issues and has indicated
>        that it still wishes to advance the document, detail those
>        concerns here.  Has an IPR disclosure related to this document
>        been filed?  If so, please include a reference to the
>        disclosure and summarize the WG discussion and conclusion on
>        this issue.

The document is sound.

The document filename is easily confused with
draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts that is also going to the
IESG for publication at this time. But the document titles are
sufficiently different to avoid confusion.

> (1.e)  How solid is the WG consensus behind this document?  Does it
>        represent the strong concurrence of a few individuals, with
>        others being silent, or does the WG as a whole understand and
>        agree with it?

The working group has indicated is understanding and support for the
requirements expressed in this I-D. The solution models described have
not drawn any unfavorable comments except as noted in the I-D.

> (1.f)  Has anyone threatened an appeal or otherwise indicated extreme
>        discontent?  If so, please summarise the areas of conflict in
>        separate email messages to the Responsible Area Director.  (It
>        should be in a separate email because this questionnaire is
>        entered into the ID Tracker.)

No threats. No discontent.

> (1.g)  Has the Document Shepherd personally verified that the
>        document satisfies all ID nits?  (See
>        http://www.ietf.org/ID-Checklist.html and
>        http://tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits/).  Boilerplate checks are
>        not enough; this check needs to be thorough.  Has the document
>        met all formal review criteria it needs to, such as the MIB
>        Doctor, media type and URI type reviews?

All checks made.


> (1.h)  Has the document split its references into normative and
>        informative?  Are there normative references to documents that
>        are not ready for advancement or are otherwise in an unclear
>        state?  If such normative references exist, what is the
>        strategy for their completion?  Are there normative references
>        that are downward references, as described in [RFC3967]?  If
>        so, list these downward references to support the Area
>        Director in the Last Call procedure for them [RFC3967].

References split.
No downrefs.

> (1.i)  Has the Document Shepherd verified that the document IANA
>        consideration section exists and is consistent with the body
>        of the document?  If the document specifies protocol
>        extensions, are reservations requested in appropriate IANA
>        registries?  Are the IANA registries clearly identified?  If
>        the document creates a new registry, does it define the
>        proposed initial contents of the registry and an allocation
>        procedure for future registrations?  Does it suggest a
>        reasonable name for the new registry?  See [RFC2434].  If the
>        document describes an Expert Review process has Shepherd
>        conferred with the Responsible Area Director so that the IESG
>        can appoint the needed Expert during the IESG Evaluation?

This is an Informational I-D.
A null IANA section is present.

> (1.j)  Has the Document Shepherd verified that sections of the
>        document that are written in a formal language, such as XML
>        code, BNF rules, MIB definitions, etc., validate correctly in
>        an automated checker?

No such sections.

> (1.k)  The IESG approval announcement includes a Document
>        Announcement Write-Up.  Please provide such a Document
>        Announcement Write-Up?  Recent examples can be found in the
>        "Action" announcements for approved documents.  The approval
>        announcement contains the following sections:
>
>        Technical Summary
>           Relevant content can frequently be found in the abstract
>           and/or introduction of the document.  If not, this may be
>           an indication that there are deficiencies in the abstract
>           or introduction.

The migration from Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) Traffic
Engineering (TE) to Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) is the process of
evolving an MPLS-TE control plane to a GMPLS control plane. An
appropriate migration strategy will be selected based on various
factors including the service provider's network deployment plan,
customer demand, and operational policy.

This document presents several migration models and strategies for
migrating from MPLS-TE to GMPLS. In the course of migration, MPLS-TE
and GMPLS devices, or networks, may coexist which may require
interworking between MPLS-TE and GMPLS protocols. Aspects of the
interworking required are discussed as it will influence the choice
of a migration strategy. This framework document provides a migration
toolkit to aid the operator in selection of an appropriate strategy.

This framework document also lists a set of solutions that may aid in
interworking, and highlights a set of potential issues.

>        Working Group Summary
>           Was there anything in WG process that is worth noting?  For
>           example, was there controversy about particular points or
>           were there decisions where the consensus was particularly
>           rough?

Nothing of note.

>        Document Quality
>           Are there existing implementations of the protocol?  Have a
>           significant number of vendors indicated their plan to
>           implement the specification?  Are there any reviewers that
>           merit special mention as having done a thorough review,
>           e.g., one that resulted in important changes or a
>           conclusion that the document had no substantive issues?  If
>           there was a MIB Doctor, Media Type or other expert review,
>           what was its course (briefly)?  In the case of a Media Type
>           review, on what date was the request posted?

This is an Informational I-D with no protocol specifications.
The authors list demonstrates considerable interest from providers in
preparing for migration from MPLS-TE to GMPLS.

Early versions of this document were founded on significant discussions
with Kireeti Kompella resulting in considerable simplification of the
ideas put forward. The final versions of this document received
detailed review from Adrian Farrel resulting in many small changes.

------=_NextPart_000_0408_01C7FF5B.1288A3C0--





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:08:26 +0000
Message-ID: <041501c7ff53$47282450$0200a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>
Cc: <dward@cisco.com>, "Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "WG Milestone Tracker" <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
Subject: Please publish draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-02.txt
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 10:03:02 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_040E_01C7FF5B.429BC4C0"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_040E_01C7FF5B.429BC4C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	format=flowed;
	charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Ross,

Please take draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-02.txt through the 
IESG process for publication as an Informational RFC.

The proto-shepherd-write-up (TM) is attached.

Cheers,
Adrian 

------=_NextPart_000_040E_01C7FF5B.429BC4C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	format=flowed;
	name="draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-02-write-up.txt";
	reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-02-write-up.txt"

Proto-write-up for draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-02

Suggest that this I-D is progressed in parallel with
draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk


> (1.a)  Who is the Document Shepherd for this document?  Has the
>        Document Shepherd personally reviewed this version of the
>        document and, in particular, does he or she believe this
>        version is ready for forwarding to the IESG for publication?

Adrian Farrel is the document shepherd.
He has personally reviewed the I-D and believes it is ready for
forwarding to the IESG for publication.

> (1.b)  Has the document had adequate review both from key WG members
>        and from key non-WG members?  Does the Document Shepherd have
>        any concerns about the depth or breadth of the reviews that
>        have been performed?

This is a fairly old document. In its early days it had substantial
review and discussion. More recently the level of input has tailed off
probably because the draft was largely technically complete. The last
few revisions of the I-D have been largely editorial working to improve
the readability and presentaiton.

Although the I-D has had no explicit review from the MPLS working group
most of the people concerned with the operation of MPLS-TE networks over
GMPLS networks are participants in CCAMP.

> (1.c)  Does the Document Shepherd have concerns that the document
>        needs more review from a particular or broader perspective,
>        e.g., security, operational complexity, someone familiar with
>        AAA, internationalization or XML?

No concerns.

> (1.d)  Does the Document Shepherd have any specific concerns or
>        issues with this document that the Responsible Area Director
>        and/or the IESG should be aware of?  For example, perhaps he
>        or she is uncomfortable with certain parts of the document, or
>        has concerns whether there really is a need for it.  In any
>        event, if the WG has discussed those issues and has indicated
>        that it still wishes to advance the document, detail those
>        concerns here.  Has an IPR disclosure related to this document
>        been filed?  If so, please include a reference to the
>        disclosure and summarize the WG discussion and conclusion on
>        this issue.

The document is sound.

The document filename is easily confused with
draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk that is also going to the
IESG for publication at this time. But the document titles are
sufficiently different to avoid confusion.

> (1.e)  How solid is the WG consensus behind this document?  Does it
>        represent the strong concurrence of a few individuals, with
>        others being silent, or does the WG as a whole understand and
>        agree with it?

The working group has indicated is understanding and support for the
requirements expressed in this I-D. The solution model described has
not drawn any unfavorable comments.

> (1.f)  Has anyone threatened an appeal or otherwise indicated extreme
>        discontent?  If so, please summarise the areas of conflict in
>        separate email messages to the Responsible Area Director.  (It
>        should be in a separate email because this questionnaire is
>        entered into the ID Tracker.)

No threats. No discontent.

> (1.g)  Has the Document Shepherd personally verified that the
>        document satisfies all ID nits?  (See
>        http://www.ietf.org/ID-Checklist.html and
>        http://tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits/).  Boilerplate checks are
>        not enough; this check needs to be thorough.  Has the document
>        met all formal review criteria it needs to, such as the MIB
>        Doctor, media type and URI type reviews?

All checks made.


> (1.h)  Has the document split its references into normative and
>        informative?  Are there normative references to documents that
>        are not ready for advancement or are otherwise in an unclear
>        state?  If such normative references exist, what is the
>        strategy for their completion?  Are there normative references
>        that are downward references, as described in [RFC3967]?  If
>        so, list these downward references to support the Area
>        Director in the Last Call procedure for them [RFC3967].

References split.
No downrefs.

> (1.i)  Has the Document Shepherd verified that the document IANA
>        consideration section exists and is consistent with the body
>        of the document?  If the document specifies protocol
>        extensions, are reservations requested in appropriate IANA
>        registries?  Are the IANA registries clearly identified?  If
>        the document creates a new registry, does it define the
>        proposed initial contents of the registry and an allocation
>        procedure for future registrations?  Does it suggest a
>        reasonable name for the new registry?  See [RFC2434].  If the
>        document describes an Expert Review process has Shepherd
>        conferred with the Responsible Area Director so that the IESG
>        can appoint the needed Expert during the IESG Evaluation?

This is an Informational I-D.
A null IANA section is present.

> (1.j)  Has the Document Shepherd verified that sections of the
>        document that are written in a formal language, such as XML
>        code, BNF rules, MIB definitions, etc., validate correctly in
>        an automated checker?

No such sections.

> (1.k)  The IESG approval announcement includes a Document
>        Announcement Write-Up.  Please provide such a Document
>        Announcement Write-Up?  Recent examples can be found in the
>        "Action" announcements for approved documents.  The approval
>        announcement contains the following sections:
>
>        Technical Summary
>           Relevant content can frequently be found in the abstract
>           and/or introduction of the document.  If not, this may be
>           an indication that there are deficiencies in the abstract
>           or introduction.

Operation of a Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) traffic
engineering (TE) network as a client network to a Generalized MPLS
(GMPLS) network has enhanced operational capabilities compared to
those provided by a co-existent protocol model (ships in the night).

The GMPLS network may be a packet or a non-packet network, and may
itself be a multi-layer network supporting both packet and non-packet
technologies. An MPLS-TE Label Switched Path (LSP) originates and
terminates on an MPLS Label Switching Router (LSR). The GMPLS network
provides transparent transport for the end-to-end MPLS-TE LSP.

This document describes a framework and Service Provider requirements
for operating MPLS-TE networks over GMPLS networks.

>        Working Group Summary
>           Was there anything in WG process that is worth noting?  For
>           example, was there controversy about particular points or
>           were there decisions where the consensus was particularly
>           rough?

Nothing of note.

>        Document Quality
>           Are there existing implementations of the protocol?  Have a
>           significant number of vendors indicated their plan to
>           implement the specification?  Are there any reviewers that
>           merit special mention as having done a thorough review,
>           e.g., one that resulted in important changes or a
>           conclusion that the document had no substantive issues?  If
>           there was a MIB Doctor, Media Type or other expert review,
>           what was its course (briefly)?  In the case of a Media Type
>           review, on what date was the request posted?

This is an Informational I-D with no protocol specifications.
The authors list demonstrates interest from providers in this mode of
network operation.

Much of the material in this document was based on draft-kumaki-ccamp-
mpls-gmpls-interworking-01.txt that had input from Cisco Systems.
Several vendors are believed to implement MPLS-TE over GMPLS in this way
and GMPLS interoperablity events are usually achieved using this model.

------=_NextPart_000_040E_01C7FF5B.429BC4C0--





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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Interworking Requirements to Support operation of MPLS-TE over GMPLS Networks
	Author(s)       : K. Kumaki, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-02.txt
	Pages           : 13
	Date            : 2007-09-24

Operation of an Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) traffic
engineering (TE) network as a client network to a Generalized MPLS
(GMPLS) network has enhanced operational capabilities compared to
those provided by a co-existent protocol model (ships in the night).

The GMPLS network may be a packet or a non-packet network, and may
itself be a multi-layer network supporting both packet and non-packet
technologies. A MPLS-TE Label Switched Path (LSP) originates and
terminates on an MPLS Label Switching Router (LSR). The GMPLS network
provides transparent transport for the end-to-end MPLS-TE LSP.



K.Kumaki et al.















 [page 1]

draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-02


September 2007


This document describes a framework and Service Provider requirements
for operating MPLS-TE networks over GMPLS networks.

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Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt 
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	Title		: Inter domain Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering - RSVP-TE extensions
	Author(s)	: A. Ayyangar, et al.
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-rsvp-te-07.txt
	Pages		: 22
	Date		: 2007-9-24
	
This document describes procedures and protocol extensions for the
   use of Resource ReserVation Protocol Traffic Engineering (RSVP-TE)
   signaling in Multiprotocol Label Switching Traffic Engineering
   (MPLS-TE) packet networks and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) packet and
   non-packet networks to support the establishment and maintenance of
   Label Switched Paths that cross domain boundaries.

   For the purpose of this document, a domain is considered to be any
   collection of network elements within a common realm of address space
   or path computation responsibility. Examples of such domains include
   Autonomous Systems, IGP routing areas, and GMPLS overlay networks.

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This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Framework for MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration
	Author(s)       : D. Papadimitriou, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-04.txt
	Pages           : 20
	Date            : 2007-09-24

The migration from Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) Traffic
Engineering (TE) to Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) is the process of
evolving an MPLS-TE control plane to a GMPLS control plane. An
appropriate migration strategy will be selected based on various
factors including the service provider's network deployment plan,
customer demand, and operational policy.

This document presents several migration models and strategies for
migrating from MPLS-TE to GMPLS. In the course of migration, MPLS-TE
and GMPLS devices, or networks, may coexist which may require
interworking between MPLS-TE and GMPLS protocols. Aspects of the
interworking required are discussed as it will influence the choice
of a migration strategy. This framework document provides a migration
toolkit to aid the operator in selection of an appropriate strategy.

This framework document also lists a set of solutions that may aid in
interworking, and highlights a set of potential issues.

 Shiomoto et al.















[page 1]


 draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-04

September 2007

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Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:36:02 +0000
Message-ID: <038701c7fed1$294bec50$0200a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: New revisions of MPLS/GMPLS I-Ds
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 18:33:14 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
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Hi,

As part of preparing these documents for IESG review, I have resubmitted 
them to fix a bunch of IDnits and format issues.
No changes of substance.

Cheers,
Adrian 





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 16:13:35 +0000
Message-ID: <031301c7fec5$673e5860$0200a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <pce@ietf.org>, <l1vpn@ietf.org>
Subject: Deployment of the Internet-Draft Submission Tool 
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:10:11 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,

Fed up with waiting one or two days for your I-D submissions to be posted?

The new tool below seems to work fine.

The only things to be aware of are:
- It checks for nits
- It requires that you include creation and expiry stamps such as
  Created: September 24, 2007
  Expires: March 24, 2008                                       
- If you want to fix the nits yourself, you should cancel the submission
   and come back later.

Cheers,
Adrian

-----Original Message-----
From: IETF Secretariat [mailto:ietf-secretariat@ietf.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 9:32 PM
To: IETF Announcement list
Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org; iesg@ietf.org
Subject: Deployment of the Internet-Draft Submission Tool 

The IETF Secretariat is pleased to announce the deployment of the
Internet-Draft Submission Tool (IDST)-Phase I.  The IDST is a Web-based
application that will allow an IETF participant to submit an
Internet-Draft online, obtain approval to post the draft (if necessary),
and make the draft immediately available to the community on the IETF
Web site without the assistance of the Secretariat (in most cases).

The URL for the IDST is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/idst/upload.cgi

The URL for instructions for using the IDST is:
http://www.ietf.org/idsubmit_instructions.html

Although it will still be possible to submit your drafts by e-mail
(i.e., by sending them to internet-drafts@ietf.org), the tool is
available for use effective immediately, and we encourage you to submit
your drafts via the tool starting today.

If you have any questions about using the tool or wish to report a bug,
then please send a message to idst-developers@ietf.org.

Enjoy!!

The IETF Secretariat


_______________________________________________
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Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 09:44:02 +0000
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:41:45 +0800
From: Mach Chen <mach@huawei.com>
Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogW21wbHNdIEFzayBmb3IgY29tbWVudHMgb24gIklHUCBleA==?= =?gb2312?B?dGVuc2lvbiBpbiBzdXBwb3J0IG9mIGludGVyLUFTImRyYWZ0cw==?=
To: "'tom.petch'" <cfinss@dial.pipex.com>
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org, 'OSPF List' <ospf@ietf.org>
Message-id: <019601c7fe8f$1f238b30$4f0c6f0a@china.huawei.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Thread-index: Acf7sZ3iKouaCc6fQraeds2F7QwxYwAP2TEg

Hi Tom,
Thanks for your comments! Sorry for the delay reply.
Pls see inline.

> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----
> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org =
[mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED
> tom.petch
> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2007=C4=EA9=D4=C221=C8=D5 0:35
> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Mach Chen
> =B3=AD=CB=CD: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [mpls] Ask for comments on "IGP extension in support =
of
> inter-AS"drafts
>=20
> A minor editorial on =
draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt.
>=20
> Since 3.2 says
> "The value of the Link Type for an inter-AS point-to-point link is 3.  =
The
use
> of multi-access inter-AS TE links is for future study"
> I think that  s6. IANA Considerations should also be specific to
point-to-point
> and not just
> "   3         Inter-AS link  "
Yes, it should be like this:" 3		Inter-AS point-to-point link"

>=20
> And a more substantive issue.  The I-D claims to be OSPF version =
agnostic
but,
> as draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-08.txt (cited as an Informative
Reference
> only) says
> "A new LS type is defined for the Intra-Area-TE LSA.  This is
>    different from OSPFv2 Traffic Engineering [TE] where opaque LSAs =
are
>    used to advertise TE information [OPAQUE]."
>  which leaves me thinking that that should be a normative reference =
and
that
> text such as
> "Type 10 opaque LSAs [RFC2370] are used to carry such TE information"
> needs stretching to encompass OSPFv3.
Yes, we will make this a Normative Reference.
Here is the suggested text for use in Section 1:
"[OSPF-TE-V3] defines similar extensions to OSPFv3 [OSPFV3], it defines =
a
new LSA which is referred to as Intra-Area-TE LSA, to advertise TE
information. [OSPF-TE-V3] uses "Traffic Engineering Extensions to OSPF"
[OSPF-TE] as a base for TLV definitions and defines some new TLVs and
sub-TLVs to extend TE capabilities to IPv6 networks."

>=20
> Likewise, 3.3. Link ID says
>=20
> "  For an inter-AS link, the Link ID carried in the Link ID sub-TLV is
>    the remote ASBR identifier which could be any address of the remote
>    ASBR(e.g., the TE Router ID, Router ID or interface address of the
>    remote ASBR reached through this inter-AS link). The TE Router ID =
is
>    RECOMMENDED.
>=20
> whereas ospfv3-traffic says
>=20
> "  The Link ID sub-TLV is used in OSPFv2 to identify the other end of
>    the link.  In OSPFv3, the Neighbor ID sub-TLV MUST be used for link
>    identification.  In OSPFv3, The Link ID sub-TLV SHOULD NOT be sent
>    and MUST be ignored upon receipt.
>=20
> Again, looks like the language needs stretching=20
Yes,=20
As to the Section 3.3 "Link ID", actually, using Remote ASBR ID is more
suitable for an inter-AS TE link. If only for OSPF v2 TE, using Link ID =
to
carry the Remote ASBR ID is OK. But the remote ASBR identifier could be =
an
IPv4 address or an IPv6 address, using Link ID sub-TLV(OSPF-TE-v2) =
,Neighbor
ID sub-TLV(OSPF-TE-v3) or other legacy sub-TLVs to carry the Remote ASBR =
ID
is not suitable. So, a new separate sub-TLV: Remote ASBR ID sub-TLV, is
needed to carry the Remote ASBR ID, just as defined in the "ISIS =
inter-AS TE
extension" document.

> and the reference be made normative. =20
Yes, as you suggested, the reference will be updated in the next =
revision
(version 02).

> There may be other instances of this as well; has this been reviewed
> by the authors of ospfv3-traffic?
We hope to receive more comments and suggestions from the authors of
ospfv3-traffic and others, and we will continue to notify the OSPF =
working
group of our progress.

>=20
> Tom Petch
>=20
Thanks again!
Best regards,
Mach Chen





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 22:06:14 +0000
Message-ID: <021401c7fe2d$4bf2b850$0200a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Four new liaisons received from ITU-T SG15
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 22:48:47 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,

ITU-T Study Group 15 Questions 12 and 14 met in Stuttgart earlier this month
and generated four liaisons to us.

Liaison Statement to CCAMP WG on GMPLS Signaling for VCAT/LCAS
https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/371/
For action. Response requested by 4th February 2008

Liaison Statement to IETF CCAMP on ASON Routing Loop Prevention
https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/370/
For action. Response requested by 19th November 2007

Liaison Statement to CCAMP on GMPLS Calls
https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/369/
For action. Response requested by 4th February 2008

Liaison Statement to CCAMP on Multi-Layer Network I-Ds
https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/368/
In response to our liaison. No response is required, but we need to take
this as input to our Working Group last call.

As always, you can track liaisons at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm

Assistance in drafting responses will be much welcomed.

Thanks,
Adrian





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 18:41:07 +0000
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Subject: RE: Question on RFC4873
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:39:00 -0500
Message-ID: <A278CCD6FF152E478C3CF84E4C3BC79D0222F4CF@rchemx01.fnc.net.local>
Thread-Topic: Question on RFC4873
Thread-Index: Acf8cvugnM9/pEXTSw6xacH8iMhtugACUDGA
From: "Bardalai, Snigdho" <Snigdho.Bardalai@us.fujitsu.com>
To: "Lou Berger" <lberger@labn.net>
Cc: <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "Ccamp (E-mail)" <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>

Hi Lou,

The text is a bit confusing...

Section 4.2.4.2 has a reference to Section 4.2.3 and in this section the =
Path and Resv message processing is described.

Section 4.2.3 talks about message co-ordination at the branch nodes. The =
described method works fine when in response to a Path message with D+R =
bits set a Resv with D bit set is generated at the egress location. I =
believe in order for PathErr message with the Path_State_Removed option =
set it is probably necessary to have some message coordination at the =
merge nodes.  as well. The Path messages with D+R bits set from all =
branches need to be received at the merge node before the message can be =
forwarded downstream. This is required in order to ensure that the =
primary and secondary (recovery) LSPs can be deleted in a graceful =
manner.

Thanks,
Snigdho


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org]On
Behalf Of Lou Berger
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 12:09 PM
To: Bardalai, Snigdho
Cc: lberger@labn.net; IBryskin@advaoptical.com;
dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk; Ccamp
(E-mail)
Subject: Re: Question on RFC4873


Snigdho,

see responses in-line.

At 12:07 PM 9/21/2007, Bardalai, Snigdho wrote:

>Hi,
>
>RFC3473 has specified an option that allows tearing down an LSP=20
>using the PathErr message with the Path_State_Removed option. If=20
>this option is used in combination with the ADMINSTATUS object with=20
>the D and R bits set in the Path message LSPs can be torn down in a=20
>graceful manner.
>
> From reading RFC4873 it seems like this option is no longer=20
> supported for the segment recovery LSPs. Section 4.2.4.2 in RFC4873=20
> requires that when a Path message with D and R bits set is=20
> received, a Resv with the D bit set MUST be sent.

I don't see this.  Section 4.2.4.2 only relates to path senders (aka=20
"the ingress node").  The draft doesn't limit/modify use of the=20
PathErr message with the Path_State_Removed option. (Handling of such=20
messages at the recovery LSP ingress is covered in 4.2.1.)

Lou

>What exactly is this addressing? From what I can see there is no=20
>strong technical reason to not support PathErr with=20
>Path_State_Removed for graceful teardown. Or is there one?
>
>Regards,
>Snigdho



Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 17:10:46 +0000
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:08:52 -0400
To: "Bardalai, Snigdho" <Snigdho.Bardalai@us.fujitsu.com>
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Subject: Re: Question on RFC4873
Cc: <lberger@labn.net>,<IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>,<adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "Ccamp (E-mail)" <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Message-Id: <E1IYm0N-000JSV-Gb@psg.com>

Snigdho,

see responses in-line.

At 12:07 PM 9/21/2007, Bardalai, Snigdho wrote:

>Hi,
>
>RFC3473 has specified an option that allows tearing down an LSP 
>using the PathErr message with the Path_State_Removed option. If 
>this option is used in combination with the ADMINSTATUS object with 
>the D and R bits set in the Path message LSPs can be torn down in a 
>graceful manner.
>
> From reading RFC4873 it seems like this option is no longer 
> supported for the segment recovery LSPs. Section 4.2.4.2 in RFC4873 
> requires that when a Path message with D and R bits set is 
> received, a Resv with the D bit set MUST be sent.

I don't see this.  Section 4.2.4.2 only relates to path senders (aka 
"the ingress node").  The draft doesn't limit/modify use of the 
PathErr message with the Path_State_Removed option. (Handling of such 
messages at the recovery LSP ingress is covered in 4.2.1.)

Lou

>What exactly is this addressing? From what I can see there is no 
>strong technical reason to not support PathErr with 
>Path_State_Removed for graceful teardown. Or is there one?
>
>Regards,
>Snigdho




Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
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Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Subject: Question on RFC4873
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:07:44 -0500
Message-ID: <A278CCD6FF152E478C3CF84E4C3BC79D0222F4CE@rchemx01.fnc.net.local>
Thread-Topic: Question on RFC4873
Thread-Index: Acf8aYstCGco52T/R/Suhcydzie+2A==
From: "Bardalai, Snigdho" <Snigdho.Bardalai@us.fujitsu.com>
To: <lberger@labn.net>, <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Cc: "Ccamp (E-mail)" <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C7FC69.8B9368CC
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

RFC3473 has specified an option that allows tearing down an LSP using =
the PathErr message with the Path_State_Removed option. If this option =
is used in combination with the ADMINSTATUS object with the D and R bits =
set in the Path message LSPs can be torn down in a graceful manner.

>From reading RFC4873 it seems like this option is no longer supported =
for the segment recovery LSPs. Section 4.2.4.2 in RFC4873 requires that =
when a Path message with D and R bits set is received, a Resv with the D =
bit set MUST be sent.=20

What exactly is this addressing? From what I can see there is no strong =
technical reason to not support PathErr with Path_State_Removed for =
graceful teardown. Or is there one?

Regards,
Snigdho

------_=_NextPart_001_01C7FC69.8B9368CC
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
6.5.7652.24">
<TITLE>Question on RFC4873</TITLE>
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<!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hi,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">RFC3473 has specified an option that =
allows tearing down an LSP using the PathErr message with the =
Path_State_Removed option. If this option is used in combination with =
the ADMINSTATUS object with the D and R bits set in the Path message =
LSPs can be torn down in a graceful manner.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From reading RFC4873 it seems like this =
option is no longer supported for the segment recovery LSPs. Section =
4.2.4.2 in RFC4873 requires that when a Path message with D and R bits =
set is received, a Resv with the D bit set MUST be sent. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">What exactly is this addressing? From =
what I can see there is no strong technical reason to not support =
PathErr with Path_State_Removed for graceful teardown. Or is there =
one?</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Regards,</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Snigdho</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
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Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:10:28 +0000
Message-ID: <005201c7fba7$d0c79740$0601a8c0@pc6>
Reply-To: "tom.petch" <cfinss@dial.pipex.com>
From: "tom.petch" <cfinss@dial.pipex.com>
To: "Mach Chen" <mach@huawei.com>
Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [mpls] Ask for comments on "IGP extension in support of inter-AS"drafts
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:35:15 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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A minor editorial on draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt.

Since 3.2 says
"The value of the Link Type for an inter-AS point-to-point link is 3.  The use
of multi-access inter-AS TE links is for future study"
I think that  s6. IANA Considerations should also be specific to point-to-point
and not just
"   3         Inter-AS link  "

And a more substantive issue.  The I-D claims to be OSPF version agnostic but,
as draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-08.txt (cited as an Informative Reference
only) says
"A new LS type is defined for the Intra-Area-TE LSA.  This is
   different from OSPFv2 Traffic Engineering [TE] where opaque LSAs are
   used to advertise TE information [OPAQUE]."
 which leaves me thinking that that should be a normative reference and that
text such as
"Type 10 opaque LSAs [RFC2370] are used to carry such TE information"
needs stretching to encompass OSPFv3.

Likewise, 3.3. Link ID says

"  For an inter-AS link, the Link ID carried in the Link ID sub-TLV is
   the remote ASBR identifier which could be any address of the remote
   ASBR(e.g., the TE Router ID, Router ID or interface address of the
   remote ASBR reached through this inter-AS link). The TE Router ID is
   RECOMMENDED.

whereas ospfv3-traffic says

"  The Link ID sub-TLV is used in OSPFv2 to identify the other end of
   the link.  In OSPFv3, the Neighbor ID sub-TLV MUST be used for link
   identification.  In OSPFv3, The Link ID sub-TLV SHOULD NOT be sent
   and MUST be ignored upon receipt.

Again, looks like the language needs stretching and the reference be made
normative.  There may be other instances of this as well; has this been reviewed
by the authors of ospfv3-traffic?

Tom Petch

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mach Chen" <mach@huawei.com>
To: <mpls@ietf.org>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 12:22 PM
Subject: [mpls] Ask for comments on "IGP extension in support of inter-AS"drafts

> Hi MPLSers,
>
> Here are two I-Ds which describe extensions to the OSPF Traffic Engineering
> (OSPF-TE) and ISIS Traffic Engineering (ISIS-TE) mechanisms to support
> (G)MPLS Traffic Engineering for multiple Autonomous Systems (ASes),
> respectively. They define OSPF-TE and ISIS-TE extensions for the flooding of
> TE information about inter-AS TE links which can be used to perform inter-AS
> TE path computation.
>
> You could reach them by the following links:
>
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-0
1.txt
>
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chen-ccamp-isis-interas-te-extension-0
1.txt
>
> I'd like to ask you to comment on the CCAMP list, thanks!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach




Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 17:12:55 +0000
Message-ID: <46F00655.9080803@grotto-networking.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 10:09:41 -0700
From: Greg Bernstein <gregb@grotto-networking.com>
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To: ccamp <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, pce@ietf.org
Subject: Wavelength Switched Optical Networks -- revised draft available
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Hello fellow, CCAMPers and PCEers,
a revised draft on wavelength switched optical networks entitled: 
"Framework for GMPLS and PCE Control of Wavelength Switched Optical 
Networks" is now available at: 
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt

The intention is to have this document adopted as a working group draft 
at either CCAMP or PCE and use it to guide the various "solution" drafts 
that are being generated with respect to wavelength switched optical 
networks.

*Abstract: *
This memo provides a framework for applying Generalized Multi- Protocol 
Label Switching (GMPLS) and the Path Computation Element (PCE) 
architecture to the control of wavelength switched optical networks 
(WSON). In particular we provide control plane models for key wavelength 
switched optical network subsystems and processes. The subsystems 
include wavelength division multiplexed links, tunable laser 
transmitters, reconfigurable optical add/drop multiplexers (ROADM) and 
wavelength converters. Lightpath provisioning, in general, requires the 
routing and wavelength assignment (RWA) process. This process is 
reviewed and the information requirements, both static and dynamic for 
this process are presented, along with alternative implementation 
scenarios that could be realized via GMPLS/PCE and/or extended GMPLS/PCE 
protocols. This memo does NOT address optical impairments in any depth 
and focuses on topological elements and path selection constraints that 
are common across different WSON environments. It is expected that a 
variety of different techniques will be applied to optical impairments 
depending on the type of WSON, such as access, metro or long haul.

Regards

Greg B, Young L. and Wataru I.

-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
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<head>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Hello fellow, CCAMPers and PCEers,<br>
a revised draft on wavelength switched optical networks entitled:
"Framework for GMPLS and PCE Control of Wavelength Switched Optical
Networks" is now available at: <a
 href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wavelength-switched-01.txt</a><br>
<br>
The intention is to have this document adopted as a working group draft
at either CCAMP or PCE and use it to guide the various "solution"
drafts that are being generated with respect to wavelength switched
optical networks.<br>
<br>
<b>Abstract: </b><br>
This memo provides a framework for applying Generalized Multi- Protocol
Label Switching (GMPLS) and the Path Computation Element (PCE)
architecture to the control of wavelength switched optical networks
(WSON). In particular we provide control plane models for key
wavelength switched optical network subsystems and processes. The
subsystems include wavelength division multiplexed links, tunable laser
transmitters, reconfigurable optical add/drop multiplexers (ROADM) and
wavelength converters. Lightpath provisioning, in general, requires the
routing and wavelength assignment (RWA) process. This process is
reviewed and the information requirements, both static and dynamic for
this process are presented, along with alternative implementation
scenarios that could be realized via GMPLS/PCE and/or extended
GMPLS/PCE protocols. This memo does NOT address optical impairments in
any depth and focuses on topological elements and path selection
constraints that are common across different WSON environments. It is
expected that a variety of different techniques will be applied to
optical impairments depending on the type of WSON, such as access,
metro or long haul.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
Greg B, Young L. and Wataru I.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

</pre>
</body>
</html>

--------------090308000305090504020604--



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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
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This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Analysis of Inter-domain Label Switched Path (LSP) Recovery
	Author(s)	: T. Takeda, et al.
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ccamp-inter-domain-recovery-analysis-02.txt
	Pages		: 23
	Date		: 2007-9-13
	
This document analyzes various schemes to realize Multiprotocol Label 
   Switching (MPLS) and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Label Switched Path 
   (LSP) recovery in multi-domain networks based on the existing 
   framework for multi-domain LSPs. 
    
   The main focus for this document is on establishing end-to-end 
   diverse Traffic Engineering (TE) LSPs in multi-domain networks. It 
   presents various diverse LSP setup schemes based on existing 
   functional elements.

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Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 05:57:17 +0000
Message-ID: <46E77F28.4030702@pi.se>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 07:54:48 +0200
From: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.se>
Organization: Acreo AB
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
CC: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>,  "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>,  ccamp@ops.ietf.org, gels <gels@rtg.ietf.org>,  Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
Subject: Re: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Adrian Farrel wrote:
> I think this thread is a representation in miniature of the issues
> involved...
> 
> - All the emails in this thread have been copied to both mailing lists
> - All the participants in the thread are subscribed to both mailing lists
> 
> No, it doesn't cost to have both lists active.

well - it does for me, since the gels-list is not on one of
the ietf-servers, and tends to be hit by quite a bit of spam
and the IETF spam filters can't be applied; I have to sift
through quite a bit of debris, floatsam and junk to try to find
any nuggets in the stream
if I've to do that for things that the wg chairs say could go to
the ccamp list anyway I'd rather do something else.

Adrian,
when can I close the list?

/Loa

> No, it doesn't cost to have all of the threads on CCAMP.
> 
> Please note that we should not discuss the data plane. If you don't
> understand (or don't like, or don't want to use) the data plane you
> should have your discussions in private or at the IEEE.
> 
> Dimitri said...
> 
>>> - Label allocation and swapping rules
>> is that not a forwarding component discussion ?
> 
> It is certainly informed by the forwarding component (i.e. the
> definition of the data plane), but the rules we need to define are the
> rules for the control plane. I.e. (and for example, only) if the
> forwarding plane defines that the label allocated on the upstream
> interface must be numerically one greater than the label allocated on
> the downstream interface, this rule must be referenced in the control
> plane specification. This is important since it is a constraint placed
> on the normal per-interface operation of GMPLS. That makes it CCAMP work.
> 
>> beside the fact that there is an assumption on what
>> label means and how it is represented in data plane
> 
> This is also something we would expect to describe within CCAMP although
> "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane specification.
> 
> Thanks,
> Adrian
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Loa Andersson

Principal Networking Architect
Acreo AB                           phone:  +46 8 632 77 14
Isafjordsgatan 22                  mobile: +46 739 81 21 64
Kista, Sweden                      email:  loa.andersson@acreo.se
                                           loa@pi.se

This email was Anti Virus checked by Astaro Security Gateway. http://www.astaro.com




Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:42:04 +0000
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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:40:01 +0100
Message-ID: <FDDE83108C11054B813316D1C31516BF03466DDF@E03MVY1-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net>
Thread-Topic: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Thread-Index: AcfyHT6Fns26LJYEQlGdFkPBvk9UrAAAJN+wAGI6+4A=
From: <benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com>
To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, <neil.2.harrison@bt.com>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <zali@cisco.com>, <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: <rcallon@juniper.net>

Colleagues,

It would appear to me that we are going around in circles and that they
are basically the same circles that we have gone around before.  This
would incorrectly imply that we have gone nowhere.

IMO the path is quite simple and outlined in Adrian's e-mail dated 5th
September.  The design team produce documents (1) & (2) ("GMPLS
Extensions for PE to PE Ethernet Label Switched Paths(LSPs)" & "GMPLS
control of P2P TE for PBB-TE (802.1Qay)").

The second document describes our understanding of the 802.1Qay data
plane including swapping rules.

We liaise these to IEEE and if we got them (i.e. our understanding of
the data plane) right then we can go ahead and define the data plane
specific control protocol machinery.  If we didn't quite get them right
IEEE tell us and we adjust the documents accordingly.

So let's wait & see what the design team create & what the IEEE reaction
to those documents is.

Ben

owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org <> wrote:
> igor
>=20
>> 	The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:
>>=20
>> 	a)     Data plane label is something determined only by
>> IEEE, because it exists independently from any Control Plane:
>> Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any Control
>> Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as CCAMP is concerned,
>> data plane label is untouchable;
>=20
>=20
> IEEE 802.1 does not deal with the data plane in that sense.
> it defines "control" of forwarding components  it is an issue
> we need to consider.
>=20
> we are not taking a data plane specification in its basic
> sense for which CCAMP adds a control plane. to the modes
> 802.1 currently considers MSTP (domain-wide bridging through
> spanning tree), SPB (shortest-path tree bridging) and PBB-TE
> (for which we have no outline so far) result in specification
> detailing operations of forwarding components.
>=20
> if i take the latter its is intended to "support provisioning
> systems that explicitly select traffic engineered paths
> within Provider Backbone Bridge Networks (P802.1ah) by
> allowing a network operator to disable unknown destination
> address forwarding and source address learning for
> administratively selected VLAN Identifiers, while allowing
> other network control protocols to dynamically determine
> active topologies for other services." ... far from being a
> data plane specification in its base sense.
>=20
>=20
>> 	b)    Control plane label is always a subset of data
>> plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it
>> DMAC/VID? just VID?  nothing as in case of statically configured
>> connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope?
>> link-scope? Stuff like that.
>=20
>=20
> i will use examples to make this clearer to allow something along the
> PBB-TE line work is ongoing to define states which force the
> port state
> being learning off and forwarding on (for all VID allocated to PBB-TE
> but not to MSTP), disable broadcast/unknown unicast while allowing
> filtering of unicast only (both are control of MAC relay operations),
> etc. -> all these control-driven operation fall outside CCAMP
> scope (at
> least as far as my understanding goes)
>=20
>=20
> -> the question is not "IEEE defines the data plane and IETF
> the control
> plane"
>=20
>=20
> =3D> the question is which control components can CCAMP consider that
> complements amended 802.1ah bridge control & operation: data path
> setup/provisioning mechanism (explicit source-initiated routing) ?
> traffic engineering which first requires to see which TE
> model IEEE will
> consider ? others ?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -d.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 3:36 PM
>> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; neil.2.harrison@bt.com;
>> adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;
>> Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
>> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>>=20
>> 	Dimitri,
>>=20
>> 	As Neil correctly pointed out, there is a great
>> advantage in having connection source ID within label of
>> every packet forwarded over the connection (and MPLS's great
>> deficiency is the lack of LSP source ID in the MPLS label).
>> The source ID must be within the (data plane) label and not
>> anywhere else, because the label constitutes Layer
>> Information (LI) in ITU terms, and only LI is accessible to a
>> server layer that claims transparency for its clients. On the
>> other hand source MA in co Ethernet is not used for packet
>> forwarding, hence it should not be signaled as a part of the
>> (control plane) label, which is information that must be put
>> by an upstream node into the packet header, so that the
>> downstream node could recognize and properly forward the packet.
>>=20
>> 	The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:
>>=20
>> 	a)     Data plane label is something determined only by
>> IEEE, because it exists independently from any Control Plane:
>> Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any
>> Control Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as
>> CCAMP is concerned, data plane label is untouchable;
>> 	b)    Control plane label is always a subset of data
>> plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it
>> DMAC/VID? just VID?  nothing as in case of statically
>> configured connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope? link-scope?
>> Stuff like that.=20
>>=20
>> 	Cheers,
>> 	Igor
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> 	> So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data
>> 	> plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
>>=20
>> 	a label distribution protocol is a set of procedures by
>> which one node
>> 	informs another of the label/FEC bindings it has made
>>=20
>> 	if these labels are distributed via the gmpls control
>> plane driving
>> 	population of the LIBs to which difference are u
>> pointing out here ? so,
>> 	not sure to see the point (whatever the number of
>> levels of indirection
>> 	between the fwd'ing plane encoding and control plane
>> encoding u will
>> 	always fall back on the former, the label distribution protocol
>> 	exchanges a piece of information used by the nodes to
>> perform their
>> 	forwarding decision)
>>=20
>> 	-d.
>>=20
>> 	> -----Original Message-----
>> 	> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]
>> 	> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:21 PM
>> 	> To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com; PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri;
>> 	> adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;
>> 	> Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;
>> gels@rtg.ietf.org
>> 	> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
>> 	> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>> 	>
>> 	> Hi Neil,
>> 	>
>> 	> I think there is a difference between a "data plane label"
>> 	> which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server
>> 	> layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of
>> 	> information signaled between adjacent controllers for the
>> 	> purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former is always
>> 	> a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance,
>> 	> connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part
>> 	> of the data plane label because it identifies the source of
>> 	> the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded
>> 	> according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node,
>> 	> for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the
>> 	> downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC
>> 	> DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID
>> 	> cross-connects architecture).
>> 	>
>> 	> So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data
>> 	> plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels. 	>
>> 	> Cheers,
>> 	> Igor
>> 	>
>> 	>
>> 	> neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:
>> 	>
>> 	> Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian
>
>> 	> > >
>> 	> > > This is also something we would expect to describe within
>
>> 	> > CCAMP although > > > "what is a label" would come to us from
>> 	the data plane 	> > specification. > >
>> 	> > do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the
>> 	> > specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does
>> 	> > not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no
>> 	> > place to discuss any "label processing" and "label
>> 	> > distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or
>
>> 	link-local > > -
>> 	> >
>> 	> > in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of
>> 	> > this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to
>> 	> > any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header
> >
>> 	information field ? > >
>> 	> > thanks,
>> 	> > -d.
>> 	>
>> 	> What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These
> are all
>> 	'labels'. >
>> 	> You also have to remember that the nature of the labels
>
>> 	required in a > traffic unit are determined by the type of the
>> 	network 	> mode one is > dealing with.
>> 	>
>> 	> In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
>> 	> 'connection'. This implies specific architectural 	>
>> 	requirements....but > the most significant, for this discussion
at
>> 	least, is 	> that a connection > must have a single source.
What
>> 	this means is that one 	> does not have to > incorporate a SA
label
>> 	in a co mode traffic > unit....under defect-free
>> 	> conditions it is redundant information as the
>> 	> connection itself provides
>> 	> the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode
> which
>> 	does not > have connections...here having a SA in the traffic
unit
>> 	> is essential} >
>> 	> Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that
>
>> 	respect the > requirements of a connection have only focussed on
>
>> 	incorporating a DA > (forwarding) label. Further, these
forwarding
>> 	labels 	> only need to be > distinct in resolving some number (N
>> 	say) of different 	> client layer > (link-connection)
instances
>> 	within a server layer 	> (network connection) > resource
partition.
>> 	However, there are advantages from 	> having both a SA > and
DA
>> 	label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network 	> unique and not
>
>> 	just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the 	>
inherent
>> 	robustness > under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct
OAM
>> 	> flow) is one of > these. And of course, these are the nature
of
>> 	the 	> native labels one > already gets in Ethernet due to
its
>> 	cl-ps mode origins. 	> So why would > one even contemplate
not
>> 	using these since they are 	> already there? > > The VID
label is
>> 	slightly different in that one can 	> consider it as a >
'route
>> 	discriminator label' and a local extension to 	> the SA or DA,
ie
>> 	it > provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between
>
>> 	nodal end > points. >
>> 	> The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above
>> 	> quantities as 'labels'
>> 	> does not change the fact that this is what they are. So
> I'm
>> 	not clear > what your real point is here.
>> 	>
>> 	> regards, Neil
>> 	>
>> 	>
>> 	>
>> 	>
>> 	> ________________________________
>> 	>
>> 	> Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge
>> 	> > ions/222> to see what's on, when.
>> 	>
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ________________________________
>>=20
>> Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top
>> picks
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D48220/*http://tv.yahoo.com/>  on
>> Yahoo! TV.




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Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 08:12:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, neil.2.harrison@bt.com, adrian@olddog.co.uk, zali@cisco.com, Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com, ccamp@ops.ietf.org, gels@rtg.ietf.org
Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
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  Dimitri,
   
  Please, see in line.
   
  Igor
 
 PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be> wrote:
  igor 
 
 > The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:
 > 
 > a) Data plane label is something determined only by 
 > IEEE, because it exists independently from any Control Plane:
 > Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any 
 > Control Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as 
 > CCAMP is concerned, data plane label is untouchable;
 
 
 IEEE 802.1 does not deal with the data plane in that sense. it defines
 "control" of forwarding components it is an issue we need to consider. 
 
 we are not taking a data plane specification in its basic sense for
 which CCAMP adds a control plane.
   
  IB>>  I totally disagree. That is exactly what we should do in CCAMP and my understanding is that this is what operators expect us to do.
   
   to the modes 802.1 currently considers
 MSTP (domain-wide bridging through spanning tree), SPB (shortest-path
 tree bridging) and PBB-TE (for which we have no outline so far) result
 in specification detailing operations of forwarding components. 
 
 if i take the latter its is intended to "support provisioning systems
 that explicitly select traffic engineered paths within Provider Backbone
 Bridge Networks (P802.1ah) by allowing a network operator to disable
 unknown destination address forwarding and source address learning for
 administratively selected VLAN Identifiers, while allowing other network
 control protocols to dynamically determine active topologies for other
 services." ... far from being a data plane specification in its base
 sense.
 
 
 > b) Control plane label is always a subset of data 
 > plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it 
 > DMAC/VID? just VID? nothing as in case of statically 
 > configured connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope? 
 > link-scope? Stuff like that.
 
 
 i will use examples to make this clearer to allow something along the
 PBB-TE line work is ongoing to define states which force the port state
 being learning off and forwarding on (for all VID allocated to PBB-TE
 but not to MSTP), disable broadcast/unknown unicast while allowing
 filtering of unicast only (both are control of MAC relay operations),
 etc. -> all these control-driven operation fall outside CCAMP scope (at
 least as far as my understanding goes)
   
  IB>> Again, this is exactly opposite to my understanding. IMO we should consider only connection-oriented Ethernet, such as 802.1ay for PBB-TE or, say, 802.1xyz for VID cross-connected Ethernet (only after such data plane is endorsed by IEEE). We should not consider any connectionless Ethernet (802.1ad,ah, etc.).: GMPLS so far  is/was all about connections and nothing else: to correct deficiencies of connectionless Ethernet native control plane ((R,M)STPs) in CCAMP IMO is as inappropriate as correcting deficiencies of MPLS in ITU (I mean designing T-MPLS)
   
  Cheers,
  Igor  
 
 
 -> the question is not "IEEE defines the data plane and IETF the control
 plane"
 
 
 => the question is which control components can CCAMP consider that
 complements amended 802.1ah bridge control & operation: data path
 setup/provisioning mechanism (explicit source-initiated routing) ?
 traffic engineering which first requires to see which TE model IEEE will
 consider ? others ? 
 
 
 
 -d.
 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] 
 > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 3:36 PM
 > To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; neil.2.harrison@bt.com; 
 > adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; 
 > Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
 > Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
 > Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
 > 
 > Dimitri,
 > 
 > As Neil correctly pointed out, there is a great 
 > advantage in having connection source ID within label of 
 > every packet forwarded over the connection (and MPLS's great 
 > deficiency is the lack of LSP source ID in the MPLS label). 
 > The source ID must be within the (data plane) label and not 
 > anywhere else, because the label constitutes Layer 
 > Information (LI) in ITU terms, and only LI is accessible to a 
 > server layer that claims transparency for its clients. On the 
 > other hand source MA in co Ethernet is not used for packet 
 > forwarding, hence it should not be signaled as a part of the 
 > (control plane) label, which is information that must be put 
 > by an upstream node into the packet header, so that the 
 > downstream node could recognize and properly forward the packet. 
 > 
 > The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:
 > 
 > a) Data plane label is something determined only by 
 > IEEE, because it exists independently from any Control Plane: 
 > Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any 
 > Control Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as 
 > CCAMP is concerned, data plane label is untouchable;
 > b) Control plane label is always a subset of data 
 > plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it 
 > DMAC/VID? just VID? nothing as in case of statically 
 > configured connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope? 
 > link-scope? Stuff like that.
 > 
 > Cheers,
 > Igor
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > > So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data 
 > > plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
 > 
 > a label distribution protocol is a set of procedures by 
 > which one node
 > informs another of the label/FEC bindings it has made
 > 
 > if these labels are distributed via the gmpls control 
 > plane driving
 > population of the LIBs to which difference are u 
 > pointing out here ? so,
 > not sure to see the point (whatever the number of 
 > levels of indirection
 > between the fwd'ing plane encoding and control plane 
 > encoding u will
 > always fall back on the former, the label distribution protocol
 > exchanges a piece of information used by the nodes to 
 > perform their
 > forwarding decision) 
 > 
 > -d.
 > 
 > > -----Original Message-----
 > > From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] 
 > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:21 PM
 > > To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com; PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; 
 > > adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; 
 > > Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; 
 > gels@rtg.ietf.org
 > > Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
 > > Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
 > > 
 > > Hi Neil,
 > > 
 > > I think there is a difference between a "data plane label" 
 > > which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server 
 > > layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of 
 > > information signaled between adjacent controllers for the 
 > > purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former is always 
 > > a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance, 
 > > connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part 
 > > of the data plane label because it identifies the source of 
 > > the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded 
 > > according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node, 
 > > for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the 
 > > downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC 
 > > DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID 
 > > cross-connects architecture).
 > > 
 > > So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data 
 > > plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
 > > 
 > > Cheers,
 > > Igor 
 > > 
 > > 
 > > neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:
 > > 
 > > Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian 
 > > 
 > > > > 
 > > > > This is also something we would expect to describe within
 > > > > CCAMP although 
 > > > > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane 
 > > > specification.
 > > > 
 > > > do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the 
 > > > specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does 
 > > > not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no 
 > > > place to discuss any "label processing" and "label 
 > > > distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or 
 > > link-local
 > > > -
 > > > 
 > > > in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of 
 > > > this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to 
 > > > any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header 
 > > > information field ?
 > > > 
 > > > thanks,
 > > > -d.
 > > 
 > > What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These 
 > > are all 'labels'.
 > > 
 > > You also have to remember that the nature of the labels 
 > > required in a
 > > traffic unit are determined by the type of the network 
 > > mode one is
 > > dealing with.
 > > 
 > > In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
 > > 'connection'. This implies specific architectural 
 > > requirements....but
 > > the most significant, for this discussion at least, is 
 > > that a connection
 > > must have a single source. What this means is that one 
 > > does not have to
 > > incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic 
 > > unit....under defect-free
 > > conditions it is redundant information as the 
 > > connection itself provides
 > > the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode 
 > > which does not
 > > have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit 
 > > is essential}
 > > 
 > > Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that 
 > > respect the
 > > requirements of a connection have only focussed on 
 > > incorporating a DA
 > > (forwarding) label. Further, these forwarding labels 
 > > only need to be
 > > distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different 
 > > client layer
 > > (link-connection) instances within a server layer 
 > > (network connection)
 > > resource partition. However, there are advantages from 
 > > having both a SA
 > > and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network 
 > > unique and not
 > > just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the 
 > > inherent robustness
 > > under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM 
 > > flow) is one of
 > > these. And of course, these are the nature of the 
 > > native labels one
 > > already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins. 
 > > So why would
 > > one even contemplate not using these since they are 
 > > already there?
 > > 
 > > The VID label is slightly different in that one can 
 > > consider it as a
 > > 'route discriminator label' and a local extension to 
 > > the SA or DA, ie it
 > > provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between 
 > > nodal end
 > > points.
 > > 
 > > The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above 
 > > quantities as 'labels'
 > > does not change the fact that this is what they are. So 
 > > I'm not clear
 > > what your real point is here.
 > > 
 > > regards, Neil
 > > 
 > > 
 > > 
 > > 
 > > ________________________________
 > > 
 > > Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge 
 > > > ions/222> to see what's on, when. 
 > > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > ________________________________
 > 
 > Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top 
 > picks 
 > on 
 > Yahoo! TV. 
 > 
 
 
 
     
  
       
---------------------------------
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  <div class="MsoNormal">Dimitri,</div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoNormal">Please, see in line.</div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoNormal">Igor<br> <br> <b><i>PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri &lt;Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be&gt;</i></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div>  <div class="MsoNormal">igor <br> <br> &gt; The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:<br> &gt; <br> &gt; a) Data plane label is something determined only by <br> &gt; IEEE, because it exists independently from any Control Plane:<br> &gt; Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any <br> &gt; Control Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as <br> &gt; CCAMP is concerned, data plane label is untouchable;<br> <br> <br> IEEE 802.1 does not deal with the data plane in that sense. it defines<br> "control" of forwarding components it is an issue we need to consider. <br> <br> we are not taking a data plane specification in its
 basic sense for<br> which CCAMP adds a control plane.</div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoNormal">IB&gt;&gt;<span style="">&nbsp; </span>I totally disagree. That is exactly what we should do in CCAMP and my understanding is that this is what operators expect us to do.</div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="">&nbsp;</span>to the modes 802.1 currently considers<br> MSTP (domain-wide bridging through spanning tree), SPB (shortest-path<br> tree bridging) and PBB-TE (for which we have no outline so far) result<br> in specification detailing operations of forwarding components. <br> <br> if i take the latter its is intended to "support provisioning systems<br> that explicitly select traffic engineered paths within Provider Backbone<br> Bridge Networks (P802.1ah) by allowing a network operator to disable<br> unknown destination address forwarding and source address learning for<br>
 administratively selected VLAN Identifiers, while allowing other network<br> control protocols to dynamically determine active topologies for other<br> services." ... far from being a data plane specification in its base<br> sense.<br> <br> <br> &gt; b) Control plane label is always a subset of data <br> &gt; plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it <br> &gt; DMAC/VID? just VID? nothing as in case of statically <br> &gt; configured connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope? <br> &gt; link-scope? Stuff like that.<br> <br> <br> i will use examples to make this clearer to allow something along the<br> PBB-TE line work is ongoing to define states which force the port state<br> being learning off and forwarding on (for all VID allocated to PBB-TE<br> but not to MSTP), disable broadcast/unknown unicast while allowing<br> filtering of unicast only (both are control of MAC relay operations),<br> etc. -&gt; all these control-driven operation fall outside
 CCAMP scope (at<br> least as far as my understanding goes)</div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoNormal">IB&gt;&gt; Again, this is exactly opposite to my understanding. IMO we should consider only connection-oriented Ethernet, such as 802.1ay for PBB-TE or, say, 802.1xyz for VID cross-connected Ethernet (only after such data plane is endorsed by IEEE). We should not consider any connectionless Ethernet (802.1ad,ah, etc.).: GMPLS so far <span style="">&nbsp;</span>is/was all about connections and nothing else: to correct deficiencies of connectionless Ethernet native control plane ((R,M)STPs) in CCAMP IMO is as inappropriate as correcting deficiencies of MPLS in ITU (I mean designing T-MPLS)</div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoNormal">Cheers,</div>  <div class="MsoNormal">Igor <span style="">&nbsp;</span><br> <br> <br> -&gt; the question is not "IEEE defines the data plane and IETF the control<br> plane"<br>
 <br> <br> =&gt; the question is which control components can CCAMP consider that<br> complements amended 802.1ah bridge control &amp; operation: data path<br> setup/provisioning mechanism (explicit source-initiated routing) ?<br> traffic engineering which first requires to see which TE model IEEE will<br> consider ? others ? <br> <br> <br> <br> -d.<br> &gt; -----Original Message-----<br> &gt; From: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Igor Bryskin</st1:PersonName> [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <br> &gt; Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 3:36 PM<br> &gt; To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; <st1:PersonName w:st="on">neil.2.harrison@bt.com</st1:PersonName>; <br> &gt; adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; <br> &gt; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org<br> &gt; Cc: rcallon@juniper.net<br> &gt; Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List<br> &gt; <br> &gt; Dimitri,<br> &gt; <br> &gt; As Neil correctly pointed out, there is a great <br> &gt; advantage in having connection
 source ID within label of <br> &gt; every packet forwarded over the connection (and MPLS's great <br> &gt; deficiency is the lack of LSP source ID in the MPLS label). <br> &gt; The source ID must be within the (data plane) label and not <br> &gt; anywhere else, because the label constitutes Layer <br> &gt; Information (LI) in ITU terms, and only LI is accessible to a <br> &gt; server layer that claims transparency for its clients. On the <br> &gt; other hand source MA in co Ethernet is not used for packet <br> &gt; forwarding, hence it should not be signaled as a part of the <br> &gt; (control plane) label, which is information that must be put <br> &gt; by an upstream node into the packet header, so that the <br> &gt; downstream node could recognize and properly forward the packet. <br> &gt; <br> &gt; The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:<br> &gt; <br> &gt; a) Data plane label is something determined only by <br> &gt; IEEE, because it exists independently from
 any Control Plane: <br> &gt; Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any <br> &gt; Control Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as <br> &gt; CCAMP is concerned, data plane label is untouchable;<br> &gt; b) Control plane label is always a subset of data <br> &gt; plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it <br> &gt; DMAC/VID? just VID? nothing as in case of statically <br> &gt; configured connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope? <br> &gt; link-scope? Stuff like that.<br> &gt; <br> &gt; Cheers,<br> &gt; Igor<br> &gt; <br> &gt; <br> &gt; <br> &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data <br> &gt; &gt; plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.<br> &gt; <br> &gt; a label distribution protocol is a set of procedures by <br> &gt; which one node<br> &gt; informs another of the label/FEC bindings it has made<br> &gt; <br> &gt; if these labels are distributed via the gmpls control <br>
 &gt; plane driving<br> &gt; population of the LIBs to which difference are u <br> &gt; pointing out here ? so,<br> &gt; not sure to see the point (whatever the number of <br> &gt; levels of indirection<br> &gt; between the fwd'ing plane encoding and control plane <br> &gt; encoding u will<br> &gt; always fall back on the former, the label distribution protocol<br> &gt; exchanges a piece of information used by the nodes to <br> &gt; perform their<br> &gt; forwarding decision) <br> &gt; <br> &gt; -d.<br> &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br> &gt; &gt; From: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Igor Bryskin</st1:PersonName> [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <br> &gt; &gt; Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:21 PM<br> &gt; &gt; To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">neil.2.harrison@bt.com</st1:PersonName>; PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; <br> &gt; &gt; adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; <br> &gt; &gt; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; <br> &gt; gels@rtg.ietf.org<br> &gt; &gt; Cc:
 rcallon@juniper.net<br> &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; Hi Neil,<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; I think there is a difference between a "data plane label" <br> &gt; &gt; which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server <br> &gt; &gt; layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of <br> &gt; &gt; information signaled between adjacent controllers for the <br> &gt; &gt; purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former is always <br> &gt; &gt; a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance, <br> &gt; &gt; connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part <br> &gt; &gt; of the data plane label because it identifies the source of <br> &gt; &gt; the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded <br> &gt; &gt; according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node, <br> &gt; &gt; for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the <br> &gt; &gt; downstream neighbor, hence the
 control plane label is MAC <br> &gt; &gt; DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID <br> &gt; &gt; cross-connects architecture).<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data <br> &gt; &gt; plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; Cheers,<br> &gt; &gt; Igor <br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; <st1:PersonName w:st="on">neil.2.harrison@bt.com</st1:PersonName> wrote:<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Adrian</st1:place></st1:City> <br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; This is also something we would expect to describe within<br> &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; CCAMP although <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; specification.<br> &gt; &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; do i interpreet correctly your
 statement that if the <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; place to discuss any "label processing" and "label <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or <br> &gt; &gt; link-local<br> &gt; &gt; &gt; -<br> &gt; &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; information field ?<br> &gt; &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; &gt; thanks,<br> &gt; &gt; &gt; -d.<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These <br> &gt; &gt; are all 'labels'.<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; You also have to remember that the nature of the labels <br> &gt; &gt; required in a<br> &gt; &gt;
 traffic unit are determined by the type of the network <br> &gt; &gt; mode one is<br> &gt; &gt; dealing with.<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a<br> &gt; &gt; 'connection'. This implies specific architectural <br> &gt; &gt; requirements....but<br> &gt; &gt; the most significant, for this discussion at least, is <br> &gt; &gt; that a connection<br> &gt; &gt; must have a single source. What this means is that one <br> &gt; &gt; does not have to<br> &gt; &gt; incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic <br> &gt; &gt; unit....under defect-free<br> &gt; &gt; conditions it is redundant information as the <br> &gt; &gt; connection itself provides<br> &gt; &gt; the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode <br> &gt; &gt; which does not<br> &gt; &gt; have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit <br> &gt; &gt; is essential}<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date
 that <br> &gt; &gt; respect the<br> &gt; &gt; requirements of a connection have only focussed on <br> &gt; &gt; incorporating a DA<br> &gt; &gt; (forwarding) label. Further, these forwarding labels <br> &gt; &gt; only need to be<br> &gt; &gt; distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different <br> &gt; &gt; client layer<br> &gt; &gt; (link-connection) instances within a server layer <br> &gt; &gt; (network connection)<br> &gt; &gt; resource partition. However, there are advantages from <br> &gt; &gt; having both a SA<br> &gt; &gt; and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network <br> &gt; &gt; unique and not<br> &gt; &gt; just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the <br> &gt; &gt; inherent robustness<br> &gt; &gt; under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM <br> &gt; &gt; flow) is one of<br> &gt; &gt; these. And of course, these are the nature of the <br> &gt; &gt; native labels one<br> &gt; &gt; already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode
 origins. <br> &gt; &gt; So why would<br> &gt; &gt; one even contemplate not using these since they are <br> &gt; &gt; already there?<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; The VID label is slightly different in that one can <br> &gt; &gt; consider it as a<br> &gt; &gt; 'route discriminator label' and a local extension to <br> &gt; &gt; the SA or DA, ie it<br> &gt; &gt; provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between <br> &gt; &gt; nodal end<br> &gt; &gt; points.<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above <br> &gt; &gt; quantities as 'labels'<br> &gt; &gt; does not change the fact that this is what they are. So <br> &gt; &gt; I'm not clear<br> &gt; &gt; what your real point is here.<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; regards, Neil<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; ________________________________<br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; &gt; Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge <br> &gt; &gt; &gt;
 ions/222&gt; to see what's on, when. <br> &gt; &gt; <br> &gt; <br> &gt; <br> &gt; <br> &gt; <br> &gt; ________________________________<br> &gt; <br> &gt; Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top <br> &gt; picks <br> &gt; <http: us.rd.yahoo.com="" evt="48220/*http://tv.yahoo.com/">on <br> &gt; Yahoo! TV. <br> &gt; <br> <br style=""> <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br style=""> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></http:></div>    <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <p>&#32;
      <hr size=1>Looking for a deal? <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=47094/*http://farechase.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTFicDJoNDllBF9TAzk3NDA3NTg5BHBvcwMxMwRzZWMDZ3JvdXBzBHNsawNlbWFpbC1uY20-">Find great prices on flights and hotels</a> with Yahoo! FareChase.
--0-1831663776-1189350777=:55044--



Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 16:40:40 +0000
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 18:38:22 +0200
Message-ID: <8144761F31F48D43AD53D09F5350E380013214BD@FRVELSMBS22.ad2.ad.alcatel.com>
Thread-Topic: Closing the GELS Mailing List
thread-index: AcfyHT6Fns26LJYEQlGdFkPBvk9UrAAAJN+w
From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>
To: "Igor Bryskin" <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, <neil.2.harrison@bt.com>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <zali@cisco.com>, <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: <rcallon@juniper.net>

igor =20

> 	The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:
> 	=20
> 	a)     Data plane label is something determined only by=20
> IEEE, because it exists independently from any Control Plane:
> Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any=20
> Control Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as=20
> CCAMP is concerned, data plane label is untouchable;


IEEE 802.1 does not deal with the data plane in that sense. it defines
"control" of forwarding components  it is an issue we need to consider.=20

we are not taking a data plane specification in its basic sense for
which CCAMP adds a control plane. to the modes 802.1 currently considers
MSTP (domain-wide bridging through spanning tree), SPB (shortest-path
tree bridging) and PBB-TE (for which we have no outline so far) result
in specification detailing operations of forwarding components.=20

if i take the latter its is intended to "support provisioning systems
that explicitly select traffic engineered paths within Provider Backbone
Bridge Networks (P802.1ah) by allowing a network operator to disable
unknown destination address forwarding and source address learning for
administratively selected VLAN Identifiers, while allowing other network
control protocols to dynamically determine active topologies for other
services." ... far from being a data plane specification in its base
sense.


> 	b)    Control plane label is always a subset of data=20
> plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it=20
> DMAC/VID? just VID?  nothing as in case of statically=20
> configured connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope?=20
> link-scope? Stuff like that.


i will use examples to make this clearer to allow something along the
PBB-TE line work is ongoing to define states which force the port state
being learning off and forwarding on (for all VID allocated to PBB-TE
but not to MSTP), disable broadcast/unknown unicast while allowing
filtering of unicast only (both are control of MAC relay operations),
etc. -> all these control-driven operation fall outside CCAMP scope (at
least as far as my understanding goes)


-> the question is not "IEEE defines the data plane and IETF the control
plane"


=3D> the question is which control components can CCAMP consider that
complements amended 802.1ah bridge control & operation: data path
setup/provisioning mechanism (explicit source-initiated routing) ?
traffic engineering which first requires to see which TE model IEEE will
consider ? others ? =20



-d.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20
> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 3:36 PM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; neil.2.harrison@bt.com;=20
> adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;=20
> Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> 	Dimitri,
> =09
> 	As Neil correctly pointed out, there is a great=20
> advantage in having connection source ID within label of=20
> every packet forwarded over the connection (and MPLS's great=20
> deficiency is the lack of LSP source ID in the MPLS label).=20
> The source ID must be within the (data plane) label and not=20
> anywhere else, because the label constitutes Layer=20
> Information (LI) in ITU terms, and only LI is accessible to a=20
> server layer that claims transparency for its clients. On the=20
> other hand source MA in co Ethernet is not used for packet=20
> forwarding, hence it should not be signaled as a part of the=20
> (control plane) label, which is information that must be put=20
> by an upstream node into the packet header, so that the=20
> downstream node could recognize and properly forward the packet.=20
> 	=20
> 	The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:
> 	=20
> 	a)     Data plane label is something determined only by=20
> IEEE, because it exists independently from any Control Plane:=20
> Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any=20
> Control Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as=20
> CCAMP is concerned, data plane label is untouchable;
> 	b)    Control plane label is always a subset of data=20
> plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it=20
> DMAC/VID? just VID?  nothing as in case of statically=20
> configured connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope?=20
> link-scope? Stuff like that.
> 	=20
> 	Cheers,
> 	Igor
> =09
> =09
> =09
> =09
> 	> So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data=20
> 	> plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
> =09
> 	a label distribution protocol is a set of procedures by=20
> which one node
> 	informs another of the label/FEC bindings it has made
> =09
> 	if these labels are distributed via the gmpls control=20
> plane driving
> 	population of the LIBs to which difference are u=20
> pointing out here ? so,
> 	not sure to see the point (whatever the number of=20
> levels of indirection
> 	between the fwd'ing plane encoding and control plane=20
> encoding u will
> 	always fall back on the former, the label distribution protocol
> 	exchanges a piece of information used by the nodes to=20
> perform their
> 	forwarding decision)=20
> =09
> 	-d.
> =09
> 	> -----Original Message-----
> 	> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20
> 	> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:21 PM
> 	> To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com; PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri;=20
> 	> adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;=20
> 	> Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;=20
> gels@rtg.ietf.org
> 	> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> 	> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> 	>=20
> 	> Hi Neil,
> 	>=20
> 	> I think there is a difference between a "data plane label"=20
> 	> which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server=20
> 	> layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of=20
> 	> information signaled between adjacent controllers for the=20
> 	> purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former is always=20
> 	> a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance,=20
> 	> connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part=20
> 	> of the data plane label because it identifies the source of=20
> 	> the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded=20
> 	> according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node,=20
> 	> for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the=20
> 	> downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC=20
> 	> DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID=20
> 	> cross-connects architecture).
> 	>=20
> 	> So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data=20
> 	> plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
> 	>=20
> 	> Cheers,
> 	> Igor=20
> 	>=20
> 	>=20
> 	> neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:
> 	>=20
> 	> Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian=20
> 	>=20
> 	> > >=20
> 	> > > This is also something we would expect to describe within
> 	> > > CCAMP although=20
> 	> > > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane=20
> 	> > specification.
> 	> >=20
> 	> > do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the=20
> 	> > specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does=20
> 	> > not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no=20
> 	> > place to discuss any "label processing" and "label=20
> 	> > distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or=20
> 	> link-local
> 	> > -
> 	> >=20
> 	> > in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of=20
> 	> > this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to=20
> 	> > any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header=20
> 	> > information field ?
> 	> >=20
> 	> > thanks,
> 	> > -d.
> 	>=20
> 	> What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These=20
> 	> are all 'labels'.
> 	>=20
> 	> You also have to remember that the nature of the labels=20
> 	> required in a
> 	> traffic unit are determined by the type of the network=20
> 	> mode one is
> 	> dealing with.
> 	>=20
> 	> In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
> 	> 'connection'. This implies specific architectural=20
> 	> requirements....but
> 	> the most significant, for this discussion at least, is=20
> 	> that a connection
> 	> must have a single source. What this means is that one=20
> 	> does not have to
> 	> incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic=20
> 	> unit....under defect-free
> 	> conditions it is redundant information as the=20
> 	> connection itself provides
> 	> the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode=20
> 	> which does not
> 	> have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit=20
> 	> is essential}
> 	>=20
> 	> Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that=20
> 	> respect the
> 	> requirements of a connection have only focussed on=20
> 	> incorporating a DA
> 	> (forwarding) label. Further, these forwarding labels=20
> 	> only need to be
> 	> distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different=20
> 	> client layer
> 	> (link-connection) instances within a server layer=20
> 	> (network connection)
> 	> resource partition. However, there are advantages from=20
> 	> having both a SA
> 	> and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network=20
> 	> unique and not
> 	> just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the=20
> 	> inherent robustness
> 	> under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM=20
> 	> flow) is one of
> 	> these. And of course, these are the nature of the=20
> 	> native labels one
> 	> already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins.=20
> 	> So why would
> 	> one even contemplate not using these since they are=20
> 	> already there?
> 	>=20
> 	> The VID label is slightly different in that one can=20
> 	> consider it as a
> 	> 'route discriminator label' and a local extension to=20
> 	> the SA or DA, ie it
> 	> provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between=20
> 	> nodal end
> 	> points.
> 	>=20
> 	> The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above=20
> 	> quantities as 'labels'
> 	> does not change the fact that this is what they are. So=20
> 	> I'm not clear
> 	> what your real point is here.
> 	>=20
> 	> regards, Neil
> 	>=20
> 	>=20
> 	>=20
> 	>=20
> 	> ________________________________
> 	>=20
> 	> Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge=20
> 	> > ions/222> to see what's on, when.=20
> 	>=20
> =09
> =09
>=20
>=20
> ________________________________
>=20
> Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top=20
> picks=20
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D48220/*http://tv.yahoo.com/>  on=20
> Yahoo! TV.=20
>=20



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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 15:32:36 +0100
Message-ID: <2ECAA42C79676B42AEBAC11229CA7D0C0106EDF4@E03MVB2-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
Thread-Topic: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Thread-Index: AcfyHTv9AzpIN5m4QLG1qvp0tsAYngAAGXwA
From: <neil.2.harrison@bt.com>
To: <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <zali@cisco.com>, <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: <rcallon@juniper.net>

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Thanks Igor...just want to slightly correct/amend something
below...please see in-line:

-----Original Message-----
From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20
Sent: 08 September 2007 14:36
To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R; adrian@olddog.co.uk;
zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;
gels@rtg.ietf.org
Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List



Dimitri,

As Neil correctly pointed out, there is a great advantage in having
connection source ID within label of every packet forwarded over the
connection (and MPLS's great deficiency is the lack of LSP source ID in
the MPLS label).=20
NH=3D> Yes, it is true that having a SA label in each/every traffic unit
is an important advantage...and so is having a DA address label (for
forwarding) that does not have to be swapped.  As I pointed out before,
one can take some short-cuts and traditional co-ps mode technologies
have (perhaps unconsciously?) done so, viz:
 -    if one respects the requirements of a connection then you can omit
the SA label from the DP traffic units....as under defect-free
conditions it is redundant information.  However, this means OAM
(essentially a CV flow that contains the SA label) should (but really
ought to be must for customer integrity/security reasons) be run on ALL
connections (irrespective of their importance) as one cannot predict a
priori where misconnectivity defects will occur.  But this is
significantly operationally inferior to having the SA information
carried in the traffic unit as this makes the network inherently robust
to such defects without any OAM at all.
-    wrt forwarding one only needs to resolve/identify (ie label) the
number of client instances that a given server layer resource partition
can support per client link connection.....noting that said labels are
indeed indirection proxies for the true DA anyway.  However, this is
also operationally inferior to using a true connection DA for forwarding
that is not swapped.
=20
Now if you don't respect the requirements of a connection, and both LDP
and PHP in MPLS don't as they create mp2p constructs, then you have to
appeal to a higher layer entity to effect a demerging function, ie
essentially recover the lost SA information.  If the client is a cl-ps
mode technology with non-overlapping addresses this can do the job
directly.  If this is not the case you have to add the lost information
some other way....and in MPLS this is done by adding a further 1-hop LSP
where the label here now takes on the semantic of SA.  But this is
actually not a very sensible approach because one of the key operational
things we need in any layer network is consistent Characteristic
Information (ie consistent traffic unit structure, consistent traffic
unit functional field semantics and consistent OAM).  Why is this
important?  Well, if one has misconnectivity defects present it is
important that the trail (co mode) or flow (cl mode) termination points
handles the traffic units and OAM in a consistent and predictable way.
MPLS does not have consistent CI....indeed I can list at least 4
different semantics of a label and more will emerge as folks consider
new applications like p2mp constructs.
=20
There are many other consequences of merging constructs, but I don't
want to get into these here.
=20
regards, Neil
=20
  The source ID must be within the (data plane) label and not anywhere
else, because the label constitutes Layer Information (LI) in ITU terms,
and only LI is accessible to a server layer that claims transparency for
its clients. On the other hand source MA in co Ethernet is not used for
packet forwarding, hence it should not be signaled as a part of the
(control plane) label, which is information that must be put by an
upstream node into the packet header, so that the downstream node could
recognize and properly forward the packet.=20
The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:
<!--[if !supportLists]-->a)     <!--[endif]-->Data plane label is
something determined only by IEEE, because it exists independently from
any Control Plane: Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS
without any Control Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as
CCAMP is concerned, data plane label is untouchable;
<!--[if !supportLists]-->b)    <!--[endif]-->Control plane label is
always a subset of data plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP
discussions: is it DMAC/VID? just VID?  nothing as in case of statically
configured connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope? link-scope?
Stuff like that.
Cheers,
Igor

<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]-->

> So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data=20
> plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.

a label distribution protocol is a set of procedures by which one node
informs another of the label/FEC bindings it has made

if these labels are distributed via the gmpls control plane driving
population of the LIBs to which difference are u pointing out here ? so,
not sure to see the point (whatever the number of levels of indirection
between the fwd'ing plane encoding and control plane encoding u will
always fall back on the former, the label distribution protocol
exchanges a piece of information used by the nodes to perform their
forwarding decision)=20

-d.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:21 PM
> To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com; PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri;=20
> adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;=20
> Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> Hi Neil,
>=20
> I think there is a difference between a "data plane label"=20
> which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server=20
> layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of=20
> information signaled between adjacent controllers for the=20
> purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former is always=20
> a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance,=20
> connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part=20
> of the data plane label because it identifies the source of=20
> the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded=20
> according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node,=20
> for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the=20
> downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC=20
> DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID=20
> cross-connects architecture).
>=20
> So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data=20
> plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Igor=20
>=20
>=20
> neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:
>=20
> Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian=20
>=20
> > >=20
> > > This is also something we would expect to describe within
> > > CCAMP although=20
> > > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane=20
> > specification.
> >=20
> > do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the=20
> > specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does=20
> > not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no=20
> > place to discuss any "label processing" and "label=20
> > distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or=20
> link-local
> > -
> >=20
> > in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of=20
> > this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to=20
> > any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header=20
> > information field ?
> >=20
> > thanks,
> > -d.
>=20
> What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These=20
> are all 'labels'.
>=20
> You also have to remember that the nature of the labels=20
> required in a
> traffic unit are determined by the type of the network=20
> mode one is
> dealing with.
>=20
> In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
> 'connection'. This implies specific architectural=20
> requirements....but
> the most significant, for this discussion at least, is=20
> that a connection
> must have a single source. What this means is that one=20
> does not have to
> incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic=20
> unit....under defect-free
> conditions it is redundant information as the=20
> connection itself provides
> the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode=20
> which does not
> have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit=20
> is essential}
>=20
> Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that=20
> respect the
> requirements of a connection have only focussed on=20
> incorporating a DA
> (forwarding) label. Further, these forwarding labels=20
> only need to be
> distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different=20
> client layer
> (link-connection) instances within a server layer=20
> (network connection)
> resource partition. However, there are advantages from=20
> having both a SA
> and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network=20
> unique and not
> just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the=20
> inherent robustness
> under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM=20
> flow) is one of
> these. And of course, these are the nature of the=20
> native labels one
> already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins.=20
> So why would
> one even contemplate not using these since they are=20
> already there?
>=20
> The VID label is slightly different in that one can=20
> consider it as a
> 'route discriminator label' and a local extension to=20
> the SA or DA, ie it
> provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between=20
> nodal end
> points.
>=20
> The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above=20
> quantities as 'labels'
> does not change the fact that this is what they are. So=20
> I'm not clear
> what your real point is here.
>=20
> regards, Neil
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ________________________________
>=20
> Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge=20
> > ions/222> to see what's on, when.=20
>=20






  _____ =20

Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D48220/*http://tv.yahoo.com/> tonight's top
picks on Yahoo! TV.=20


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<DIV><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2>Thanks Igor...just want to slightly correct/amend something=20
below...please see in-line:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #800000 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Igor =
Bryskin=20
  [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> 08 September 2007=20
  14:36<BR><B>To:</B> PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R;=20
  adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com;=20
  ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  rcallon@juniper.net<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Closing the GELS Mailing=20
  List<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dreplbq=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal>Dimitri,<BR></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal>As Neil correctly pointed out, there is a =
great=20
    advantage in having connection source ID within label of every =
packet=20
    forwarded over the connection (and MPLS&#8217;s great deficiency is =
the lack of=20
    LSP source ID in the MPLS label).<SPAN =
class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 size=3D2>NH=3D&gt; Yes, it is =
true that=20
    having a SA label in each/every traffic unit</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 size=3D2>is an important =
advantage...and so=20
    is having a DA address label (for forwarding) that does not have to =
be=20
    swapped.&nbsp; As I pointed out before, one can&nbsp;take some =
short-cuts=20
    and traditional co-ps mode technologies have (perhaps =
unconsciously?) done=20
    so, viz:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007></SPAN><SPAN =

    class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
    size=3D2>&nbsp;-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;if one respects the =
requirements of a=20
    connection then you can omit the SA label from the DP traffic =
units....as=20
    under defect-free conditions it is redundant information.&nbsp; =
However,=20
    this means OAM (essentially a CV flow that contains the SA label) =
should=20
    (but really ought to be must for customer integrity/security =
reasons) be run=20
    on ALL connections (irrespective of their importance) as one cannot =
predict=20
    a priori where misconnectivity defects will occur.&nbsp; But this is =

    significantly operationally inferior to having the SA information =
carried in=20
    the traffic unit as this makes the network inherently robust to such =
defects=20
    without any OAM at all.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2>-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;wrt=20
    forwarding one only needs to resolve/identify (ie label) the number =
of=20
    client instances that a given server layer resource partition can =
support=20
    per client link connection.....noting that said labels are indeed=20
    indirection proxies for the true DA anyway.&nbsp; However, this is =
also=20
    operationally inferior to&nbsp;using a true connection DA for =
forwarding=20
    that is not swapped.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 size=3D2>Now if you don't =
respect the=20
    requirements of a connection, and both LDP and PHP in MPLS don't as =
they=20
    create mp2p constructs, then you have to appeal to a higher layer =
entity to=20
    effect a demerging function, ie essentially recover the lost SA=20
    information.&nbsp; If the client is a cl-ps mode technology with=20
    non-overlapping addresses this can do the job directly.&nbsp; If =
this is not=20
    the case you have to add the lost information some other way....and =
in MPLS=20
    this is done by adding a further 1-hop LSP where the label here now =
takes on=20
    the semantic of SA.&nbsp; But this is actually not a very sensible =
approach=20
    because one of the key operational things we need in any layer =
network is=20
    consistent Characteristic Information (ie consistent traffic unit =
structure,=20
    consistent traffic unit functional field semantics and consistent=20
    OAM).&nbsp; Why is this important?&nbsp; Well, if one has =
misconnectivity=20
    defects present it is important that the trail (co mode) or flow (cl =
mode)=20
    termination points handles the traffic units and OAM in a consistent =
and=20
    predictable way.&nbsp; MPLS does not have consistent CI....indeed I =
can list=20
    at least 4 different semantics of a label and more will emerge as =
folks=20
    consider new applications like p2mp constructs.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 size=3D2>There are many other =
consequences=20
    of merging constructs, but I don't want to get into these=20
    here.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 size=3D2>regards, =
Neil</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D950083913-08092007><FONT=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN =
class=3D950083913-08092007>&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>The=20
    source ID must be within the (data plane) label and not anywhere =
else,=20
    because the label constitutes Layer Information (LI) in ITU terms, =
and only=20
    LI is accessible to a server layer that claims transparency for its =
clients.=20
    On the other hand source MA in co Ethernet is not used for packet=20
    forwarding, hence it should not be signaled as a part of the =
(control plane)=20
    label, which is information that must be put by an upstream node =
into the=20
    packet header, so that the downstream node could recognize and =
properly=20
    forward the packet. </DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><O:P></O:P></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal>The conclusions in the context of co =
Ethernet:</DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><O:P></O:P></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal=20
    style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in">&lt;!--[if=20
    !supportLists]--&gt;<SPAN>a)<SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'; font-size-adjust: none; =
font-stretch: normal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    </SPAN></SPAN>&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;Data plane label is something =
determined=20
    only by IEEE, because it exists independently from any Control =
Plane:=20
    Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any Control =
Plane=20
    (no control plane labels at all). As far as CCAMP is concerned, data =
plane=20
    label is untouchable;</DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal=20
    style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in">&lt;!--[if=20
    !supportLists]--&gt;<SPAN>b)<SPAN style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New
     Roman'; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: =
normal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    </SPAN></SPAN>&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;Control plane label is always a =
subset of=20
    data plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it =
DMAC/VID?=20
    just VID? <SPAN>&nbsp;</SPAN>nothing as in case of statically =
configured=20
    connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope? link-scope? Stuff like =

    that.</DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: =
0.25in"><O:P></O:P></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal>Cheers,</DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal>Igor</DIV><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman'"><BR>&lt;!--[if=20
    =
!supportLineBreakNewLine]--&gt;<BR>&lt;!--[endif]--&gt;</SPAN><BR><BR>&gt=
;=20
    So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data =
<BR>&gt; plane=20
    labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.<BR><BR>a label =
distribution=20
    protocol is a set of procedures by which one node<BR>informs another =
of the=20
    label/FEC bindings it has made<BR><BR>if these labels are =
distributed via=20
    the gmpls control plane driving<BR>population of the LIBs to which=20
    difference are u pointing out here ? so,<BR>not sure to see the =
point=20
    (whatever the number of levels of indirection<BR>between the fwd'ing =
plane=20
    encoding and control plane encoding u will<BR>always fall back on =
the=20
    former, the label distribution protocol<BR>exchanges a piece of =
information=20
    used by the nodes to perform their<BR>forwarding decision)=20
    <BR><BR>-d.<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: =
Igor=20
    Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <BR>&gt; Sent: Friday, =
September 07,=20
    2007 9:21 PM<BR>&gt; To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com; PAPADIMITRIOU =
Dimitri;=20
    <BR>&gt; adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; <BR>&gt;=20
    Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; =
gels@rtg.ietf.org<BR>&gt;=20
    Cc: rcallon@juniper.net<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Closing the GELS =
Mailing=20
    List<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Hi Neil,<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I think there is a=20
    difference between a "data plane label" <BR>&gt; which is a Layer=20
    Information (LI) used by a given server <BR>&gt; layer and a =
"control plane=20
    label", which is a piece of <BR>&gt; information signaled between =
adjacent=20
    controllers for the <BR>&gt; purpose of connection provisioning. IMO =
the=20
    former is always <BR>&gt; a superset of the latter. Let's take, for=20
    instance, <BR>&gt; connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very =
important=20
    part <BR>&gt; of the data plane label because it identifies the =
source of=20
    <BR>&gt; the connection. However, the connection frames are =
forwarded=20
    <BR>&gt; according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node, =

    <BR>&gt; for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the =
<BR>&gt;=20
    downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC <BR>&gt; =
DA/VID=20
    (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID <BR>&gt; =
cross-connects=20
    architecture).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; So, IMO IEEE should be responsible =
for the=20
    definition of data <BR>&gt; plane labels, while CCAMP for control =
plane=20
    labels.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Cheers,<BR>&gt; Igor <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; =
<BR>&gt;=20
    neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Dimitri wrote 07 =
September=20
    2007 16:36 in response to Adrian <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
    &gt; This is also something we would expect to describe =
within<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
    &gt; CCAMP although <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; "what is a label" would come =
to us=20
    from the data plane <BR>&gt; &gt; specification.<BR>&gt; &gt; =
<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
    do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the <BR>&gt; &gt;=20
    specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does <BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
    not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no <BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
    place to discuss any "label processing" and "label <BR>&gt; &gt;=20
    distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or <BR>&gt;=20
    link-local<BR>&gt; &gt; -<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; in that case, =
isn't the=20
    .1Q specification outside scope of <BR>&gt; &gt; this effort since =
not=20
    referring - as of today at least - to <BR>&gt; &gt; any "label" =
semantic as=20
    part of the Ethernet frame header <BR>&gt; &gt; information field =
?<BR>&gt;=20
    &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; thanks,<BR>&gt; &gt; -d.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; What do =
you=20
    think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These <BR>&gt; are all =
'labels'.<BR>&gt;=20
    <BR>&gt; You also have to remember that the nature of the labels =
<BR>&gt;=20
    required in a<BR>&gt; traffic unit are determined by the type of the =
network=20
    <BR>&gt; mode one is<BR>&gt; dealing with.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; In the =
co-cs and=20
    co-ps modes we have a construction known as a<BR>&gt; 'connection'. =
This=20
    implies specific architectural <BR>&gt; requirements....but<BR>&gt; =
the most=20
    significant, for this discussion at least, is <BR>&gt; that a=20
    connection<BR>&gt; must have a single source. What this means is =
that one=20
    <BR>&gt; does not have to<BR>&gt; incorporate a SA label in a co =
mode=20
    traffic <BR>&gt; unit....under defect-free<BR>&gt; conditions it is=20
    redundant information as the <BR>&gt; connection itself =
provides<BR>&gt; the=20
    source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode <BR>&gt; which =
does=20
    not<BR>&gt; have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit =
<BR>&gt;=20
    is essential}<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode =
technologies to=20
    date that <BR>&gt; respect the<BR>&gt; requirements of a connection =
have=20
    only focussed on <BR>&gt; incorporating a DA<BR>&gt; (forwarding) =
label.=20
    Further, these forwarding labels <BR>&gt; only need to be<BR>&gt; =
distinct=20
    in resolving some number (N say) of different <BR>&gt; client =
layer<BR>&gt;=20
    (link-connection) instances within a server layer <BR>&gt; (network=20
    connection)<BR>&gt; resource partition. However, there are =
advantages from=20
    <BR>&gt; having both a SA<BR>&gt; and DA label in a co-ps traffic =
unit that=20
    are network <BR>&gt; unique and not<BR>&gt; just link-connection =
unique (ie=20
    not swapped)....the <BR>&gt; inherent robustness<BR>&gt; under=20
    misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM <BR>&gt; flow) is =
one=20
    of<BR>&gt; these. And of course, these are the nature of the =
<BR>&gt; native=20
    labels one<BR>&gt; already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode =
origins.=20
    <BR>&gt; So why would<BR>&gt; one even contemplate not using these =
since=20
    they are <BR>&gt; already there?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The VID label is =
slightly=20
    different in that one can <BR>&gt; consider it as a<BR>&gt; 'route=20
    discriminator label' and a local extension to <BR>&gt; the SA or DA, =
ie=20
    it<BR>&gt; provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between =
<BR>&gt;=20
    nodal end<BR>&gt; points.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The mere fact IEEE may =
not refer=20
    to the above <BR>&gt; quantities as 'labels'<BR>&gt; does not change =
the=20
    fact that this is what they are. So <BR>&gt; I'm not clear<BR>&gt; =
what your=20
    real point is here.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; regards, Neil<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; =
<BR>&gt;=20
    <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; ________________________________<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; =
Sick=20
    sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge <BR>&gt; =
<HTTP:=20
    evt=3D"47093/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collect<br" =
us.rd.yahoo.com=3D"">&gt;=20
    ions/222&gt; to see what's on, when. <BR>&gt;=20
<BR><BR></HTTP:></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
  <P>
  <HR SIZE=3D1>
  Ready for the edge of your seat? <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D48220/*http://tv.yahoo.com/">Check =
out=20
  tonight's top picks</A> on Yahoo! TV. </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 06:36:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, neil.2.harrison@bt.com, adrian@olddog.co.uk, zali@cisco.com, Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com, ccamp@ops.ietf.org, gels@rtg.ietf.org
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Dimitri,

As Neil correctly pointed out, there is a great advantage in having connection source ID within label of every packet forwarded over the connection (and MPLS’s great deficiency is the lack of LSP source ID in the MPLS label). The source ID must be within the (data plane) label and not anywhere else, because the label constitutes Layer Information (LI) in ITU terms, and only LI is accessible to a server layer that claims transparency for its clients. On the other hand source MA in co Ethernet is not used for packet forwarding, hence it should not be signaled as a part of the (control plane) label, which is information that must be put by an upstream node into the packet header, so that the downstream node could recognize and properly forward the packet. 
   
  The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:
   
  a)     Data plane label is something determined only by IEEE, because it exists independently from any Control Plane: Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any Control Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as CCAMP is concerned, data plane label is untouchable;
  b)    Control plane label is always a subset of data plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it DMAC/VID? just VID?  nothing as in case of statically configured connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope? link-scope? Stuff like that.
   
  Cheers,
  Igor
  
 
 

> So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data 
> plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.

a label distribution protocol is a set of procedures by which one node
informs another of the label/FEC bindings it has made

if these labels are distributed via the gmpls control plane driving
population of the LIBs to which difference are u pointing out here ? so,
not sure to see the point (whatever the number of levels of indirection
between the fwd'ing plane encoding and control plane encoding u will
always fall back on the former, the label distribution protocol
exchanges a piece of information used by the nodes to perform their
forwarding decision) 

-d.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] 
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:21 PM
> To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com; PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; 
> adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; 
> Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> 
> Hi Neil,
>  
> I think there is a difference between a "data plane label" 
> which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server 
> layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of 
> information signaled between adjacent controllers for the 
> purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former is always 
> a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance, 
> connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part 
> of the data plane label because it identifies the source of 
> the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded 
> according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node, 
> for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the 
> downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC 
> DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID 
> cross-connects architecture).
>  
> So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data 
> plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
>  
> Cheers,
> Igor 
> 
> 
> neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:
> 
>  Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian 
>  
>  > > 
>  > > This is also something we would expect to describe within
>  > > CCAMP although 
>  > > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane 
>  > specification.
>  > 
>  > do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the 
>  > specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does 
>  > not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no 
>  > place to discuss any "label processing" and "label 
>  > distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or 
> link-local
>  > -
>  > 
>  > in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of 
>  > this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to 
>  > any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header 
>  > information field ?
>  > 
>  > thanks,
>  > -d.
>  
>  What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These 
> are all 'labels'.
>  
>  You also have to remember that the nature of the labels 
> required in a
>  traffic unit are determined by the type of the network 
> mode one is
>  dealing with.
>  
>  In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
>  'connection'. This implies specific architectural 
> requirements....but
>  the most significant, for this discussion at least, is 
> that a connection
>  must have a single source. What this means is that one 
> does not have to
>  incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic 
> unit....under defect-free
>  conditions it is redundant information as the 
> connection itself provides
>  the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode 
> which does not
>  have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit 
> is essential}
>  
>  Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that 
> respect the
>  requirements of a connection have only focussed on 
> incorporating a DA
>  (forwarding) label. Further, these forwarding labels 
> only need to be
>  distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different 
> client layer
>  (link-connection) instances within a server layer 
> (network connection)
>  resource partition. However, there are advantages from 
> having both a SA
>  and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network 
> unique and not
>  just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the 
> inherent robustness
>  under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM 
> flow) is one of
>  these. And of course, these are the nature of the 
> native labels one
>  already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins. 
> So why would
>  one even contemplate not using these since they are 
> already there?
>  
>  The VID label is slightly different in that one can 
> consider it as a
>  'route discriminator label' and a local extension to 
> the SA or DA, ie it
>  provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between 
> nodal end
>  points.
>  
>  The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above 
> quantities as 'labels'
>  does not change the fact that this is what they are. So 
> I'm not clear
>  what your real point is here.
>  
>  regards, Neil
>  
>  
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge 
> > ions/222> to see what's on, when. 
> 



       
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<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><div class="MsoNormal">Dimitri,<br></div><div class="MsoNormal">As Neil correctly pointed out, there is a great advantage in having connection source ID within label of every packet forwarded over the connection (and MPLS’s great deficiency is the lack of LSP source ID in the MPLS label). The source ID must be within the (data plane) label and not anywhere else, because the label constitutes Layer Information (LI) in ITU terms, and only LI is accessible to a server layer that claims transparency for its clients. On the other hand source MA in co Ethernet is not used for packet forwarding, hence it should not be signaled as a part of the (control plane) label, which is information that must be put by an upstream node into the packet header, so that the downstream node could recognize and properly forward the packet. </div>  <div
 class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoNormal">The conclusions in the context of co Ethernet:</div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="">a)<span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span><!--[endif]-->Data plane label is something determined only by IEEE, because it exists independently from any Control Plane: Ethernet connections could be configured by NMS without any Control Plane (no control plane labels at all). As far as CCAMP is concerned, data plane label is untouchable;</div>  <div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="">b)<span style="font-family: &quot;Times New
 Roman&quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span><!--[endif]-->Control plane label is always a subset of data plane and is an essential subject of CCAMP discussions: is it DMAC/VID? just VID? <span style="">&nbsp;</span>nothing as in case of statically configured connections? Is it network-scope? node-scope? link-scope? Stuff like that.</div>  <div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.25in;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoNormal">Cheers,</div>  <div class="MsoNormal">Igor</div>  <span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;"><br style=""> <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br style=""> <!--[endif]--></span><br><br>&gt; So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data <br>&gt; plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.<br><br>a label distribution protocol is a set of
 procedures by which one node<br>informs another of the label/FEC bindings it has made<br><br>if these labels are distributed via the gmpls control plane driving<br>population of the LIBs to which difference are u pointing out here ? so,<br>not sure to see the point (whatever the number of levels of indirection<br>between the fwd'ing plane encoding and control plane encoding u will<br>always fall back on the former, the label distribution protocol<br>exchanges a piece of information used by the nodes to perform their<br>forwarding decision) <br><br>-d.<br><br>&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt; From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <br>&gt; Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:21 PM<br>&gt; To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com; PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; <br>&gt; adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; <br>&gt; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org<br>&gt; Cc: rcallon@juniper.net<br>&gt; Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Hi
 Neil,<br>&gt;  <br>&gt; I think there is a difference between a "data plane label" <br>&gt; which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server <br>&gt; layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of <br>&gt; information signaled between adjacent controllers for the <br>&gt; purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former is always <br>&gt; a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance, <br>&gt; connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part <br>&gt; of the data plane label because it identifies the source of <br>&gt; the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded <br>&gt; according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node, <br>&gt; for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the <br>&gt; downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC <br>&gt; DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID <br>&gt; cross-connects architecture).<br>&gt;  <br>&gt; So, IMO IEEE should be responsible
 for the definition of data <br>&gt; plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.<br>&gt;  <br>&gt; Cheers,<br>&gt; Igor <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt;  Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian <br>&gt;  <br>&gt;  &gt; &gt; <br>&gt;  &gt; &gt; This is also something we would expect to describe within<br>&gt;  &gt; &gt; CCAMP although <br>&gt;  &gt; &gt; "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane <br>&gt;  &gt; specification.<br>&gt;  &gt; <br>&gt;  &gt; do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the <br>&gt;  &gt; specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does <br>&gt;  &gt; not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no <br>&gt;  &gt; place to discuss any "label processing" and "label <br>&gt;  &gt; distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or <br>&gt; link-local<br>&gt;  &gt; -<br>&gt;  &gt; <br>&gt;  &gt; in that case, isn't the .1Q specification
 outside scope of <br>&gt;  &gt; this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to <br>&gt;  &gt; any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header <br>&gt;  &gt; information field ?<br>&gt;  &gt; <br>&gt;  &gt; thanks,<br>&gt;  &gt; -d.<br>&gt;  <br>&gt;  What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These <br>&gt; are all 'labels'.<br>&gt;  <br>&gt;  You also have to remember that the nature of the labels <br>&gt; required in a<br>&gt;  traffic unit are determined by the type of the network <br>&gt; mode one is<br>&gt;  dealing with.<br>&gt;  <br>&gt;  In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a<br>&gt;  'connection'. This implies specific architectural <br>&gt; requirements....but<br>&gt;  the most significant, for this discussion at least, is <br>&gt; that a connection<br>&gt;  must have a single source. What this means is that one <br>&gt; does not have to<br>&gt;  incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic <br>&gt; unit....under
 defect-free<br>&gt;  conditions it is redundant information as the <br>&gt; connection itself provides<br>&gt;  the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode <br>&gt; which does not<br>&gt;  have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit <br>&gt; is essential}<br>&gt;  <br>&gt;  Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that <br>&gt; respect the<br>&gt;  requirements of a connection have only focussed on <br>&gt; incorporating a DA<br>&gt;  (forwarding) label. Further, these forwarding labels <br>&gt; only need to be<br>&gt;  distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different <br>&gt; client layer<br>&gt;  (link-connection) instances within a server layer <br>&gt; (network connection)<br>&gt;  resource partition. However, there are advantages from <br>&gt; having both a SA<br>&gt;  and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network <br>&gt; unique and not<br>&gt;  just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the <br>&gt; inherent
 robustness<br>&gt;  under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM <br>&gt; flow) is one of<br>&gt;  these. And of course, these are the nature of the <br>&gt; native labels one<br>&gt;  already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins. <br>&gt; So why would<br>&gt;  one even contemplate not using these since they are <br>&gt; already there?<br>&gt;  <br>&gt;  The VID label is slightly different in that one can <br>&gt; consider it as a<br>&gt;  'route discriminator label' and a local extension to <br>&gt; the SA or DA, ie it<br>&gt;  provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between <br>&gt; nodal end<br>&gt;  points.<br>&gt;  <br>&gt;  The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above <br>&gt; quantities as 'labels'<br>&gt;  does not change the fact that this is what they are. So <br>&gt; I'm not clear<br>&gt;  what your real point is here.<br>&gt;  <br>&gt;  regards, Neil<br>&gt;  <br>&gt;  <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt;
 ________________________________<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge <br>&gt; <http: us.rd.yahoo.com="" evt="47093/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collect&lt;br">&gt; ions/222&gt; to see what's on, when. <br>&gt; <br><br></http:></blockquote><br><p>&#32;
      <hr size=1>Ready for the edge of your seat? 
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--0-2017222141-1189258575=:29167--



Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 12:39:45 +0000
Message-ID: <069d01c7f214$ecd50680$0302a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Fw: liaison to IETF (ccamp, MPLS, BFD, PWE3, and L3VPN)  on MFA Forum MPLS ICI
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 13:32:50 +0100
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

FYI,

The MFA would like a response to their liaison by 18th October.

Adrian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Sinicrope (RL/TNT)" <david.sinicrope@ericsson.com>
To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>; "J. Rao Cherukuri" 
<cherukuri@juniper.net>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>; <townsley@cisco.com>; 
<jari.arkko@piuha.net>; <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>; "Bocci, Matthew 
(Matthew)" <matthew.bocci@alcatel-lucent.co.uk>; 
<nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com>; <dbrungard@att.com>; 
<rick.wilder@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ronald Bonica" <rbonica@juniper.net>; 
"Stewart Bryant (stbryant)" <stbryant@cisco.com>; <danny@arbor.net>; 
<dward@cisco.com>; <jhaas@pfrc.org>; "George Swallow (swallow)" 
<swallow@cisco.com>; "Loa Andersson" <loa@pi.se>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:28 PM
Subject: RE: liaison to IETF (ccamp, MPLS, BFD, PWE3, and L3VPN) on MFA 
Forum MPLS ICI


Hi Adrian,
Our next MFA Forum Technical Committee meeting is scheduled for October
22-26.  If at all possible, we would like to have comments and feedback
from the IETF by 10/18/2007 so that we could review and address them
during that meeting.  I realize that for the size of the document a
little over 5 weeks for review and comment is very short notice.

If not by 10/18/2007, then as soon as possible afterwards would help us.
We are aiming to complete the document by year end and would need to
have IETF feedback resolved and incorporated by the end of November at
the latest to meet that goal.

Please feel free to contact me with any other questions you may have.

Thank-you for your help and support.
Best Regards,
David

-----Original Message-----
From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 5:44 PM
To: J. Rao Cherukuri; David Sinicrope (RL/TNT)
Cc: Ross Callon; townsley@cisco.com; jari.arkko@piuha.net;
andrew.g.malis@verizon.com; Bocci, Matthew (Matthew);
nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com; dbrungard@att.com;
rick.wilder@alcatel-lucent.com; Ronald Bonica; Stewart Bryant
(stbryant); danny@arbor.net; dward@cisco.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; George
Swallow (swallow); Loa Andersson
Subject: Re: liaison to IETF (ccamp, MPLS, BFD, PWE3, and L3VPN) on MFA
Forum MPLS ICI

Rao, David,

> This document is in our first level ballot procedure.
> Please review and provide comments.

Please suggest an appropriate timescale for review feedback.

Thanks,
Adrian

----- Original Message -----
From: "J. Rao Cherukuri" <cherukuri@juniper.net>
To: <IAB@ietf.org>; <statements@ietf.org>; <adrian@olddog.co.uk>;
<dbrungard@att.com>; <rick.wilder@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ronald Bonica"
<rbonica@juniper.net>; "Stewart Bryant (stbryant)" <stbryant@cisco.com>;
<danny@arbor.net>; <dward@cisco.com>; <jhaas@pfrc.org>; "George Swallow
(swallow)" <swallow@cisco.com>; "Loa Andersson" <loa@pi.se>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>; <townsley@cisco.com>;
<jari.arkko@piuha.net>; "David Sinicrope (RL/TNT)"
<david.sinicrope@ericsson.com>; <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>; "Bocci,
Matthew (Matthew)" <matthew.bocci@alcatel-lucent.co.uk>; "J. Rao
Cherukuri"
<cherukuri@juniper.net>; <nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 1:28 AM
Subject: liaison to IETF (ccamp, MPLS, BFD, PWE3, and L3VPN) on MFA
Forum MPLS ICI


Dear All,



The MFA Forum is currently working on an MPLS Inter-Carrier Interconnect
(MPLS-ICI) specification to support IP VPNs, MPLS Pseudo Wires, Data
Trunks, and VoIP. This specification is being driven by the MFA Forum
service provider members.



The objective of this Technical Specification is to enable a set of MPLS
services, across administrative domains operated by different carriers.
The MPLS ICI is a bi-directional IP-MPLS logical link between an
Autonomous System Border Router (ASBR) in one service provider network
and an ASBR in another service provider network.



This document is targeted to equipment vendors to specify the necessary
ASBR requirements and to service providers to provide guidance on how to
use these capabilities. This document uses protocols developed in
appropriate standard bodies (e.g., IETF, ITU) where applicable.



This document is in our first level ballot procedure.



Please review and provide comments.



Thank you for your consideration of this matter.



Cordially,



David Sinicrope,

A&D Chair, MFA Forum



Rao Cherukuri



Chairman, MFA Forum Technical Committee







(draft MPLS ICI)










Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 08:05:14 +0000
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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 10:02:44 +0200
Message-ID: <8144761F31F48D43AD53D09F5350E3800132149A@FRVELSMBS22.ad2.ad.alcatel.com>
Thread-Topic: Closing the GELS Mailing List
thread-index: AcfxhFFC5MDKHllkRmqpnDUfKCOC6AACP26g
From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>
To: "Igor Bryskin" <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, <neil.2.harrison@bt.com>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <zali@cisco.com>, <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: <rcallon@juniper.net>

igor,

> So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data=20
> plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.

a label distribution protocol is a set of procedures by which one node
informs another of the label/FEC bindings it has made

if these labels are distributed via the gmpls control plane driving
population of the LIBs to which difference are u pointing out here ? so,
not sure to see the point (whatever the number of levels of indirection
between the fwd'ing plane encoding and control plane encoding u will
always fall back on the former, the label distribution protocol
exchanges a piece of information used by the nodes to perform their
forwarding decision)=20

-d.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:21 PM
> To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com; PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri;=20
> adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;=20
> Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> Hi Neil,
> =20
> I think there is a difference between a "data plane label"=20
> which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server=20
> layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of=20
> information signaled between adjacent controllers for the=20
> purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former is always=20
> a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance,=20
> connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part=20
> of the data plane label because it identifies the source of=20
> the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded=20
> according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node,=20
> for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the=20
> downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC=20
> DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID=20
> cross-connects architecture).
> =20
> So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data=20
> plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
> =20
> Cheers,
> Igor=20
>=20
>=20
> neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:
>=20
> 	Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian=20
> =09
> 	> >=20
> 	> > This is also something we would expect to describe within
> 	> > CCAMP although=20
> 	> > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane=20
> 	> specification.
> 	>=20
> 	> do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the=20
> 	> specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does=20
> 	> not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no=20
> 	> place to discuss any "label processing" and "label=20
> 	> distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or=20
> link-local
> 	> -
> 	>=20
> 	> in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of=20
> 	> this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to=20
> 	> any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header=20
> 	> information field ?
> 	>=20
> 	> thanks,
> 	> -d.
> =09
> 	What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These=20
> are all 'labels'.
> =09
> 	You also have to remember that the nature of the labels=20
> required in a
> 	traffic unit are determined by the type of the network=20
> mode one is
> 	dealing with.
> =09
> 	In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
> 	'connection'. This implies specific architectural=20
> requirements....but
> 	the most significant, for this discussion at least, is=20
> that a connection
> 	must have a single source. What this means is that one=20
> does not have to
> 	incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic=20
> unit....under defect-free
> 	conditions it is redundant information as the=20
> connection itself provides
> 	the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode=20
> which does not
> 	have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit=20
> is essential}
> =09
> 	Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that=20
> respect the
> 	requirements of a connection have only focussed on=20
> incorporating a DA
> 	(forwarding) label. Further, these forwarding labels=20
> only need to be
> 	distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different=20
> client layer
> 	(link-connection) instances within a server layer=20
> (network connection)
> 	resource partition. However, there are advantages from=20
> having both a SA
> 	and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network=20
> unique and not
> 	just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the=20
> inherent robustness
> 	under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM=20
> flow) is one of
> 	these. And of course, these are the nature of the=20
> native labels one
> 	already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins.=20
> So why would
> 	one even contemplate not using these since they are=20
> already there?
> =09
> 	The VID label is slightly different in that one can=20
> consider it as a
> 	'route discriminator label' and a local extension to=20
> the SA or DA, ie it
> 	provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between=20
> nodal end
> 	points.
> =09
> 	The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above=20
> quantities as 'labels'
> 	does not change the fact that this is what they are. So=20
> I'm not clear
> 	what your real point is here.
> =09
> 	regards, Neil
> =09
> =09
>=20
>=20
> ________________________________
>=20
> Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge=20
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D47093/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collect
> ions/222> to see what's on, when.=20
>=20



Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 02:39:59 +0000
Message-ID: <067401c7f19a$a0755490$0302a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Fw: liaison to IETF (ccamp, MPLS, BFD, PWE3, and L3VPN)  on MFA Forum MPLS ICI
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 22:57:09 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,

Here is another liaison from the MFA Forum.

This one asks for our review of a new specification, but gives no deadline 
for the review.

See the liaison and the specification at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm

Cheers,
Adrian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "J. Rao Cherukuri" <cherukuri@juniper.net>
To: <IAB@ietf.org>; <statements@ietf.org>; <adrian@olddog.co.uk>; 
<dbrungard@att.com>; <rick.wilder@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ronald Bonica" 
<rbonica@juniper.net>; "Stewart Bryant (stbryant)" <stbryant@cisco.com>; 
<danny@arbor.net>; <dward@cisco.com>; <jhaas@pfrc.org>; "George Swallow 
(swallow)" <swallow@cisco.com>; "Loa Andersson" <loa@pi.se>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>; <townsley@cisco.com>; 
<jari.arkko@piuha.net>; "David Sinicrope (RL/TNT)" 
<david.sinicrope@ericsson.com>; <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>; "Bocci, 
Matthew (Matthew)" <matthew.bocci@alcatel-lucent.co.uk>; "J. Rao Cherukuri" 
<cherukuri@juniper.net>; <nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 1:28 AM
Subject: liaison to IETF (ccamp, MPLS, BFD, PWE3, and L3VPN) on MFA Forum 
MPLS ICI

Dear All,

The MFA Forum is currently working on an MPLS Inter-Carrier Interconnect
(MPLS-ICI) specification to support IP VPNs, MPLS Pseudo Wires, Data
Trunks, and VoIP. This specification is being driven by the MFA Forum
service provider members.

The objective of this Technical Specification is to enable a set of MPLS
services, across administrative domains operated by different carriers.
The MPLS ICI is a bi-directional IP-MPLS logical link between an
Autonomous System Border Router (ASBR) in one service provider network
and an ASBR in another service provider network.

This document is targeted to equipment vendors to specify the necessary
ASBR requirements and to service providers to provide guidance on how to
use these capabilities. This document uses protocols developed in
appropriate standard bodies (e.g., IETF, ITU) where applicable.

This document is in our first level ballot procedure.

Please review and provide comments.

Thank you for your consideration of this matter.

Cordially,

David Sinicrope,
A&D Chair, MFA Forum

Rao Cherukuri
Chairman, MFA Forum Technical Committee
(draft MPLS ICI)





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Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:58:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com, Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be, adrian@olddog.co.uk, zali@cisco.com, Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com, ccamp@ops.ietf.org, gels@rtg.ietf.org
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I fully understand what are saying and I think we are in agreement here: I am not saying that SA is unimportant, quite on the contrary. What I am saying is that SA is not a label in the CP signaling sense, rather, it is a property that is signaled in the opposite direction compared to one the label is signaled (like bandwidth, link affinities, etc.)

Igor

neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:   Message    Hi Igor, I'd disagree with you for the reasons I attempted to explain to  Dimitri, ie depends on the network mode....in the cl-ps mode the SA *label* is  pretty important.  The only reason we have usually not traditionally  incorporated a SA label in co mode network traffic units is that, under  misconnectivity defect-free conditions, it is redundant information...the  connection itself provides that information.  However, there are important  benefits to be had from having a SA in each/every traffic unit, and if these are  already there 'for free' then it would be sheer folly not to recognise them for  what they are and use them.
  
 regards, Neil...have great weekend yourself, I'm signing off  now.
    
   -----Original Message-----
From: Igor Bryskin    [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] 
Sent: 07 September 2007    22:33
To: Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R;    Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;    Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;    gels@rtg.ietf.org
Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
Subject: RE:    Closing the GELS Mailing List


True, however one can argue    that SA is not a label, rather a connection property that the connection    ingress knows about and signales downstream (just like bandwidth, for    example), while the label is something it does not know yet and needs to get    it from downstream so that the downstream node could recognize frames labeled    with the label and forward them accordingly.

Have a great    weekend.
Igor

neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:             Hi Igor...I understand what you mean...and yes for *forwarding*      purposes (on the assumption the requirements of a connection are met) you      are right.  It is, however, also important for the CP to tell the      sink(s) of the connection what SA it expects to appear in the CV OAM pkts      and this esp important if the co-ps mode layer network is based on the less      optimal label-swapping paradigm.  Of course, if we don't use      label-swapping as in the case of PBB-TE then the CV function (of correct      connectivity verification) appears 'for free' in each/every traffic      unit....not just the OAM pkts, which are really only now required to      distinguish a quiescent traffic case from a simple broken      connection.
      
     regards, Neil
            
       -----Original Message-----
From: Igor Bryskin        [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] 
Sent: 07 September 2007        20:21
To: Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R;        Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk;        zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;        gels@rtg.ietf.org
Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
Subject: RE:        Closing the GELS Mailing List


       Hi Neil,
       
       I think there is a difference between a "data        plane label" which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server        layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of information        signaled between adjacent controllers for the purpose of connection        provisioning. IMO the former is always a superset of the latter. Let's        take, for instance, connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very        important part of the data plane label because it identifies the source of        the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded according to        MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node, for example, needs only be        signaled with this tuple by the downstream neighbor, hence the control        plane label is MAC DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the        VID cross-connects architecture).
       
       So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the        definition of data plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane        labels.
       
       Cheers,
       Igor        


neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:        Dimitri          wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian          

> > 
> > This is also something we would          expect to describe within
> > CCAMP although 
> >          "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane 
>          specification.
> 
> do i interpreet correctly your statement          that if the 
> specification that CCAMP is going to receive from          IEEE does 
> not speak about "label" and its encoding there will          be no 
> place to discuss any "label processing" and "label          
> distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or          link-local
> -
> 
> in that case, isn't the .1Q          specification outside scope of 
> this effort since not referring          - as of today at least - to 
> any "label" semantic as part of the          Ethernet frame header 
> information field ?
> 
>          thanks,
> -d.

What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID          are? These are all 'labels'.

You also have to remember that the          nature of the labels required in a
traffic unit are determined by the          type of the network mode one is
dealing with.

In the co-cs and          co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
'connection'. This          implies specific architectural requirements....but
the most          significant, for this discussion at least, is that a connection
must          have a single source. What this means is that one does not have          to
incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under          defect-free
conditions it is redundant information as the connection          itself provides
the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps          mode which does not
have connections...here having a SA in the          traffic unit is essential}

Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode          technologies to date that respect the
requirements of a connection          have only focussed on incorporating a DA
(forwarding) label. Further,          these forwarding labels only need to be
distinct in resolving some          number (N say) of different client layer
(link-connection) instances          within a server layer (network connection)
resource partition.          However, there are advantages from having both a SA
and DA label in a          co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not
just          link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent          robustness
under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM          flow) is one of
these. And of course, these are the nature of the          native labels one
already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode          origins. So why would
one even contemplate not using these since they          are already there?

The VID label is slightly different in that          one can consider it as a
'route discriminator label' and a local          extension to the SA or DA, ie it
provides the ability to identify          disjoint paths between nodal end
points.

The mere fact IEEE          may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'
does not change the          fact that this is what they are. So I'm not clear
what your real          point is here.

regards, Neil


       
       
---------------------------------
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I fully understand what are saying and I think we are in agreement here: I am not saying that SA is unimportant, quite on the contrary. What I am saying is that SA is not a label in the CP signaling sense, rather, it is a property that is signaled in the opposite direction compared to one the label is signaled (like bandwidth, link affinities, etc.)<br><br>Igor<br><br><b><i>neil.2.harrison@bt.com</i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;">   <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"><title>Message</title>   <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name="GENERATOR"> <div><span class="002183521-07092007"><font color="#800000" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">Hi Igor, I'd disagree with you for the reasons I attempted to explain to  Dimitri, ie depends on the network mode....in the cl-ps mode the SA *label* is  pretty important.&nbsp; The only reason we have usually not
 traditionally  incorporated a SA label in co mode network traffic units is that, under  misconnectivity defect-free conditions, it is redundant information...the  connection itself provides that information.&nbsp; However, there are important  benefits to be had from having a SA in each/every traffic unit, and if these are  already there 'for free' then it would be sheer folly not to recognise them for  what they are and use them.</font></span></div> <div><span class="002183521-07092007"><font color="#800000" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2"></font></span>&nbsp;</div> <div><span class="002183521-07092007"><font color="#800000" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">regards, Neil...have great weekend yourself, I'm signing off  now.</font></span></div> <blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(128, 0, 0); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">   <div></div>   <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" align="left" lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"
 size="2">-----Original Message-----<br><b>From:</b> Igor Bryskin    [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> 07 September 2007    22:33<br><b>To:</b> Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R;    Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;    Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;    gels@rtg.ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> rcallon@juniper.net<br><b>Subject:</b> RE:    Closing the GELS Mailing List<br><br></font></div>True, however one can argue    that SA is not a label, rather a connection property that the connection    ingress knows about and signales downstream (just like bandwidth, for    example), while the label is something it does not know yet and needs to get    it from downstream so that the downstream node could recognize frames labeled    with the label and forward them accordingly.<br><br>Have a great    weekend.<br>Igor<br><br><b><i>neil.2.harrison@bt.com</i></b> wrote:   <blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16,
 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">     <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name="GENERATOR">     <div><span class="206501320-07092007"><font color="#800000" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">Hi Igor...I understand what you mean...and yes for *forwarding*      purposes (on the assumption the requirements of a connection are met) you      are right.&nbsp; It is, however, also important for the CP to tell the      sink(s) of the connection what SA it expects to appear in the CV OAM pkts      and this esp important if the co-ps mode layer network is based on the less      optimal label-swapping paradigm.&nbsp; Of course, if we don't use      label-swapping as in the case of PBB-TE then the CV function (of correct      connectivity verification) appears 'for free' in each/every traffic      unit....not just the OAM pkts, which are really only now required to      distinguish a quiescent traffic case from a simple broken      connection.</font></span></div>    
 <div><span class="206501320-07092007"><font color="#800000" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2"></font></span>&nbsp;</div>     <div><span class="206501320-07092007"><font color="#800000" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">regards, Neil</font></span></div>     <blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(128, 0, 0); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">       <div></div>       <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" align="left" lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Original Message-----<br><b>From:</b> Igor Bryskin        [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> 07 September 2007        20:21<br><b>To:</b> Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R;        Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk;        zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;        gels@rtg.ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> rcallon@juniper.net<br><b>Subject:</b> RE:        Closing the GELS Mailing List<br><br></font></div>       <div class="MsoPlainText">Hi
 Neil,<O:P></O:P></div>       <div class="MsoPlainText"><O:P></O:P></div>       <div class="MsoPlainText">I think there is a difference between a "data        plane label" which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server        layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of information        signaled between adjacent controllers for the purpose of connection        provisioning. IMO the former is always a superset of the latter. Let's        take, for instance, connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very        important part of the data plane label because it identifies the source of        the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded according to        MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node, for example, needs only be        signaled with this tuple by the downstream neighbor, hence the control        plane label is MAC DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the        VID cross-connects
 architecture).<O:P></O:P></div>       <div class="MsoPlainText"><O:P></O:P></div>       <div class="MsoPlainText">So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the        definition of data plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane        labels.<O:P></O:P></div>       <div class="MsoPlainText"><O:P></O:P></div>       <div class="MsoPlainText">Cheers,<O:P></O:P></div>       <div class="MsoPlainText">Igor        <O:P></O:P></div><br><br><b><i>neil.2.harrison@bt.com</i></b> wrote:        <blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">Dimitri          wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian          <SNIPPED><br><br>&gt; &gt; <br>&gt; &gt; This is also something we would          expect to describe within<br>&gt; &gt; CCAMP although <br>&gt; &gt;          "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane <br>&gt;          specification.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; do i interpreet correctly your statement      
    that if the <br>&gt; specification that CCAMP is going to receive from          IEEE does <br>&gt; not speak about "label" and its encoding there will          be no <br>&gt; place to discuss any "label processing" and "label          <br>&gt; distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or          link-local<br>&gt; -<br>&gt; <br>&gt; in that case, isn't the .1Q          specification outside scope of <br>&gt; this effort since not referring          - as of today at least - to <br>&gt; any "label" semantic as part of the          Ethernet frame header <br>&gt; information field ?<br>&gt; <br>&gt;          thanks,<br>&gt; -d.<br><br>What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID          are? These are all 'labels'.<br><br>You also have to remember that the          nature of the labels required in a<br>traffic unit are determined by the          type of the network mode one is<br>dealing with.<br><br>In the co-cs and          co-ps modes we have a construction
 known as a<br>'connection'. This          implies specific architectural requirements....but<br>the most          significant, for this discussion at least, is that a connection<br>must          have a single source. What this means is that one does not have          to<br>incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under          defect-free<br>conditions it is redundant information as the connection          itself provides<br>the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps          mode which does not<br>have connections...here having a SA in the          traffic unit is essential}<br><br>Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode          technologies to date that respect the<br>requirements of a connection          have only focussed on incorporating a DA<br>(forwarding) label. Further,          these forwarding labels only need to be<br>distinct in resolving some          number (N say) of different client layer<br>(link-connection) instances          within a server
 layer (network connection)<br>resource partition.          However, there are advantages from having both a SA<br>and DA label in a          co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not<br>just          link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent          robustness<br>under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM          flow) is one of<br>these. And of course, these are the nature of the          native labels one<br>already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode          origins. So why would<br>one even contemplate not using these since they          are already there?<br><br>The VID label is slightly different in that          one can consider it as a<br>'route discriminator label' and a local          extension to the SA or DA, ie it<br>provides the ability to identify          disjoint paths between nodal end<br>points.<br><br>The mere fact IEEE          may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'<br>does not change the         
 fact that this is what they are. So I'm not clear<br>what your real          point is here.<br><br>regards, Neil<br><br></SNIPPED></blockquote><br>       <div></div>       <hr size="1">       Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=47093/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222">Comedy        with an Edge </a>to see what's on, when. </blockquote></blockquote><br>   <div>   </div><hr size="1">   Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48252/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC">mobile    search that gives answers</a>, not web links. </blockquote></blockquote><br><p>&#32;
      <hr size=1>Shape Yahoo! in your own image.  
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Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 21:43:01 +0000
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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 22:42:27 +0100
Message-ID: <2ECAA42C79676B42AEBAC11229CA7D0C0106EDE0@E03MVB2-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
Thread-Topic: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Thread-Index: AcfxlqknD8rstOxnQgqub0LmpWd5LgAAFLWw
From: <neil.2.harrison@bt.com>
To: <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <zali@cisco.com>, <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: <rcallon@juniper.net>

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Hi Igor, I'd disagree with you for the reasons I attempted to explain to
Dimitri, ie depends on the network mode....in the cl-ps mode the SA
*label* is pretty important.  The only reason we have usually not
traditionally incorporated a SA label in co mode network traffic units
is that, under misconnectivity defect-free conditions, it is redundant
information...the connection itself provides that information.  However,
there are important benefits to be had from having a SA in each/every
traffic unit, and if these are already there 'for free' then it would be
sheer folly not to recognise them for what they are and use them.
=20
regards, Neil...have great weekend yourself, I'm signing off now.

-----Original Message-----
From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20
Sent: 07 September 2007 22:33
To: Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be;
adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com;
ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List


True, however one can argue that SA is not a label, rather a connection
property that the connection ingress knows about and signales downstream
(just like bandwidth, for example), while the label is something it does
not know yet and needs to get it from downstream so that the downstream
node could recognize frames labeled with the label and forward them
accordingly.

Have a great weekend.
Igor

neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:=20

Hi Igor...I understand what you mean...and yes for *forwarding* purposes
(on the assumption the requirements of a connection are met) you are
right.  It is, however, also important for the CP to tell the sink(s) of
the connection what SA it expects to appear in the CV OAM pkts and this
esp important if the co-ps mode layer network is based on the less
optimal label-swapping paradigm.  Of course, if we don't use
label-swapping as in the case of PBB-TE then the CV function (of correct
connectivity verification) appears 'for free' in each/every traffic
unit....not just the OAM pkts, which are really only now required to
distinguish a quiescent traffic case from a simple broken connection.
=20
regards, Neil

-----Original Message-----
From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20
Sent: 07 September 2007 20:21
To: Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be;
adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com;
ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List


Hi Neil,
I think there is a difference between a "data plane label" which is a
Layer Information (LI) used by a given server layer and a "control plane
label", which is a piece of information signaled between adjacent
controllers for the purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former
is always a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance, connection
oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part of the data plane
label because it identifies the source of the connection. However, the
connection frames are forwarded according to MAC DA/VID, and hence
connection ingress node, for example, needs only be signaled with this
tuple by the downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC
DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID
cross-connects architecture).
So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data plane
labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
Cheers,
Igor=20


neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:=20

Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian=20

> >=20
> > This is also something we would expect to describe within
> > CCAMP although=20
> > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane=20
> specification.
>=20
> do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the=20
> specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does=20
> not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no=20
> place to discuss any "label processing" and "label=20
> distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or link-local
> -
>=20
> in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of=20
> this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to=20
> any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header=20
> information field ?
>=20
> thanks,
> -d.

What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These are all 'labels'.

You also have to remember that the nature of the labels required in a
traffic unit are determined by the type of the network mode one is
dealing with.

In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
'connection'. This implies specific architectural requirements....but
the most significant, for this discussion at least, is that a connection
must have a single source. What this means is that one does not have to
incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under defect-free
conditions it is redundant information as the connection itself provides
the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode which does not
have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit is essential}

Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the
requirements of a connection have only focussed on incorporating a DA
(forwarding) label. Further, these forwarding labels only need to be
distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different client layer
(link-connection) instances within a server layer (network connection)
resource partition. However, there are advantages from having both a SA
and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not
just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent robustness
under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM flow) is one of
these. And of course, these are the nature of the native labels one
already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins. So why would
one even contemplate not using these since they are already there?

The VID label is slightly different in that one can consider it as a
'route discriminator label' and a local extension to the SA or DA, ie it
provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between nodal end
points.

The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'
does not change the fact that this is what they are. So I'm not clear
what your real point is here.

regards, Neil




  _____ =20

Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D47093/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222>=

with an Edge to see what's on, when.=20




  _____ =20

Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D48252/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/on=
e
search?refer=3D1ONXIC> search that gives answers, not web links.=20


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<TITLE>Message</TITLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D002183521-07092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2>Hi Igor, I'd disagree with you for the reasons I attempted to =
explain to=20
Dimitri, ie depends on the network mode....in the cl-ps mode the SA =
*label* is=20
pretty important.&nbsp; The only reason we have usually not =
traditionally=20
incorporated a SA label in co mode network traffic units is that, under=20
misconnectivity defect-free conditions, it is redundant =
information...the=20
connection itself provides that information.&nbsp; However, there are =
important=20
benefits to be had from having a SA in each/every traffic unit, and if =
these are=20
already there 'for free' then it would be sheer folly not to recognise =
them for=20
what they are and use them.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D002183521-07092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D002183521-07092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2>regards, Neil...have great weekend yourself, I'm signing off=20
now.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #800000 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Igor =
Bryskin=20
  [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> 07 September 2007=20
  22:33<BR><B>To:</B> Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R;=20
  Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk; =
zali@cisco.com;=20
  Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;=20
  gels@rtg.ietf.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> rcallon@juniper.net<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
RE:=20
  Closing the GELS Mailing List<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>True, however one =
can argue=20
  that SA is not a label, rather a connection property that the =
connection=20
  ingress knows about and signales downstream (just like bandwidth, for=20
  example), while the label is something it does not know yet and needs =
to get=20
  it from downstream so that the downstream node could recognize frames =
labeled=20
  with the label and forward them accordingly.<BR><BR>Have a great=20
  weekend.<BR>Igor<BR><BR><B><I>neil.2.harrison@bt.com</I></B> wrote:
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dreplbq=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
    <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name=3DGENERATOR>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D206501320-07092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
    size=3D2>Hi Igor...I understand what you mean...and yes for =
*forwarding*=20
    purposes (on the assumption the requirements of a connection are =
met) you=20
    are right.&nbsp; It is, however, also important for the CP to tell =
the=20
    sink(s) of the connection what SA it expects to appear in the CV OAM =
pkts=20
    and this esp important if the co-ps mode layer network is based on =
the less=20
    optimal label-swapping paradigm.&nbsp; Of course, if we don't use=20
    label-swapping as in the case of PBB-TE then the CV function (of =
correct=20
    connectivity verification) appears 'for free' in each/every traffic=20
    unit....not just the OAM pkts, which are really only now required to =

    distinguish a quiescent traffic case from a simple broken=20
    connection.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D206501320-07092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
    size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D206501320-07092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
    size=3D2>regards, Neil</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(128,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV></DIV>
      <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
      face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
Igor Bryskin=20
      [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> 07 September 2007=20
      20:21<BR><B>To:</B> Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R;=20
      Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk;=20
      zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;=20
      gels@rtg.ietf.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> =
rcallon@juniper.net<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:=20
      Closing the GELS Mailing List<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText>Hi Neil,<O:P></O:P></DIV>
      <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText><O:P></O:P></DIV>
      <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText>I think there is a difference between a =
"data=20
      plane label" which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given =
server=20
      layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of information =

      signaled between adjacent controllers for the purpose of =
connection=20
      provisioning. IMO the former is always a superset of the latter. =
Let's=20
      take, for instance, connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very =

      important part of the data plane label because it identifies the =
source of=20
      the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded =
according to=20
      MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node, for example, needs =
only be=20
      signaled with this tuple by the downstream neighbor, hence the =
control=20
      plane label is MAC DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the =
idea of the=20
      VID cross-connects architecture).<O:P></O:P></DIV>
      <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText><O:P></O:P></DIV>
      <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText>So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for =
the=20
      definition of data plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane=20
      labels.<O:P></O:P></DIV>
      <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText><O:P></O:P></DIV>
      <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText>Cheers,<O:P></O:P></DIV>
      <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText>Igor=20
      <O:P></O:P></DIV><BR><BR><B><I>neil.2.harrison@bt.com</I></B> =
wrote:=20
      <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dreplbq=20
      style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">Dimitri=20
        wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian=20
        <SNIPPED><BR><BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; This is also something =
we would=20
        expect to describe within<BR>&gt; &gt; CCAMP although <BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
        "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane <BR>&gt;=20
        specification.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; do i interpreet correctly your =
statement=20
        that if the <BR>&gt; specification that CCAMP is going to =
receive from=20
        IEEE does <BR>&gt; not speak about "label" and its encoding =
there will=20
        be no <BR>&gt; place to discuss any "label processing" and =
"label=20
        <BR>&gt; distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or=20
        link-local<BR>&gt; -<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; in that case, isn't the =
.1Q=20
        specification outside scope of <BR>&gt; this effort since not =
referring=20
        - as of today at least - to <BR>&gt; any "label" semantic as =
part of the=20
        Ethernet frame header <BR>&gt; information field ?<BR>&gt; =
<BR>&gt;=20
        thanks,<BR>&gt; -d.<BR><BR>What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA =
and VID=20
        are? These are all 'labels'.<BR><BR>You also have to remember =
that the=20
        nature of the labels required in a<BR>traffic unit are =
determined by the=20
        type of the network mode one is<BR>dealing with.<BR><BR>In the =
co-cs and=20
        co-ps modes we have a construction known as a<BR>'connection'. =
This=20
        implies specific architectural requirements....but<BR>the most=20
        significant, for this discussion at least, is that a =
connection<BR>must=20
        have a single source. What this means is that one does not have=20
        to<BR>incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under=20
        defect-free<BR>conditions it is redundant information as the =
connection=20
        itself provides<BR>the source information. {Compare this to the =
cl-ps=20
        mode which does not<BR>have connections...here having a SA in =
the=20
        traffic unit is essential}<BR><BR>Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode=20
        technologies to date that respect the<BR>requirements of a =
connection=20
        have only focussed on incorporating a DA<BR>(forwarding) label. =
Further,=20
        these forwarding labels only need to be<BR>distinct in resolving =
some=20
        number (N say) of different client layer<BR>(link-connection) =
instances=20
        within a server layer (network connection)<BR>resource =
partition.=20
        However, there are advantages from having both a SA<BR>and DA =
label in a=20
        co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not<BR>just=20
        link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent=20
        robustness<BR>under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct =
OAM=20
        flow) is one of<BR>these. And of course, these are the nature of =
the=20
        native labels one<BR>already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps =
mode=20
        origins. So why would<BR>one even contemplate not using these =
since they=20
        are already there?<BR><BR>The VID label is slightly different in =
that=20
        one can consider it as a<BR>'route discriminator label' and a =
local=20
        extension to the SA or DA, ie it<BR>provides the ability to =
identify=20
        disjoint paths between nodal end<BR>points.<BR><BR>The mere fact =
IEEE=20
        may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'<BR>does not =
change the=20
        fact that this is what they are. So I'm not clear<BR>what your =
real=20
        point is here.<BR><BR>regards, =
Neil<BR><BR></SNIPPED></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
      <DIV></DIV>
      <HR SIZE=3D1>
      Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's <A=20
      =
href=3D"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D47093/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collectio=
ns/222">Comedy=20
      with an Edge </A>to see what's on, when. =
</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
  <P>
  <HR SIZE=3D1>
  Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D48252/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobil=
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  search that gives answers</A>, not web links. =
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Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 21:33:31 +0000
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Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:32:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com, Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be, adrian@olddog.co.uk, zali@cisco.com, Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com, ccamp@ops.ietf.org, gels@rtg.ietf.org
Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
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True, however one can argue that SA is not a label, rather a connection property that the connection ingress knows about and signales downstream (just like bandwidth, for example), while the label is something it does not know yet and needs to get it from downstream so that the downstream node could recognize frames labeled with the label and forward them accordingly.

Have a great weekend.
Igor

neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:   Message    Hi Igor...I understand what you mean...and yes for *forwarding* purposes  (on the assumption the requirements of a connection are met) you are  right.  It is, however, also important for the CP to tell the sink(s) of  the connection what SA it expects to appear in the CV OAM pkts and this esp  important if the co-ps mode layer network is based on the less optimal  label-swapping paradigm.  Of course, if we don't use label-swapping as in  the case of PBB-TE then the CV function (of correct connectivity verification)  appears 'for free' in each/every traffic unit....not just the OAM pkts, which  are really only now required to distinguish a quiescent traffic case from a  simple broken connection.
  
 regards, Neil
    
   -----Original Message-----
From: Igor Bryskin    [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] 
Sent: 07 September 2007    20:21
To: Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R;    Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;    Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;    gels@rtg.ietf.org
Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
Subject: RE:    Closing the GELS Mailing List


   Hi Neil,
   
   I think there is a difference between a "data plane    label" which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server layer and a    "control plane label", which is a piece of information signaled between    adjacent controllers for the purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the    former is always a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance,    connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part of the data    plane label because it identifies the source of the connection. However, the    connection frames are forwarded according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection    ingress node, for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the    downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC DA/VID (or just VID,    for those who like the idea of the VID cross-connects    architecture).
   
   So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition    of data plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
   
   Cheers,
   Igor    


neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:    Dimitri      wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian 

>      > 
> > This is also something we would expect to describe      within
> > CCAMP although 
> > "what is a label" would      come to us from the data plane 
> specification.
> 
> do i      interpreet correctly your statement that if the 
> specification that      CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does 
> not speak about "label"      and its encoding there will be no 
> place to discuss any "label      processing" and "label 
> distribution" protocol in IETF - being      domain-wide or link-local
> -
> 
> in that case, isn't the      .1Q specification outside scope of 
> this effort since not referring      - as of today at least - to 
> any "label" semantic as part of the      Ethernet frame header 
> information field ?
> 
>      thanks,
> -d.

What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are?      These are all 'labels'.

You also have to remember that the nature of      the labels required in a
traffic unit are determined by the type of the      network mode one is
dealing with.

In the co-cs and co-ps modes we      have a construction known as a
'connection'. This implies specific      architectural requirements....but
the most significant, for this      discussion at least, is that a connection
must have a single source. What      this means is that one does not have to
incorporate a SA label in a co      mode traffic unit....under defect-free
conditions it is redundant      information as the connection itself provides
the source information.      {Compare this to the cl-ps mode which does not
have connections...here      having a SA in the traffic unit is essential}

Ergo why co-cs and      co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the
requirements of a      connection have only focussed on incorporating a DA
(forwarding) label.      Further, these forwarding labels only need to be
distinct in resolving      some number (N say) of different client layer
(link-connection) instances      within a server layer (network connection)
resource partition. However,      there are advantages from having both a SA
and DA label in a co-ps      traffic unit that are network unique and not
just link-connection unique      (ie not swapped)....the inherent robustness
under misconnectivity defects      (without any adjunct OAM flow) is one of
these. And of course, these are      the nature of the native labels one
already gets in Ethernet due to its      cl-ps mode origins. So why would
one even contemplate not using these      since they are already there?

The VID label is slightly different in      that one can consider it as a
'route discriminator label' and a local      extension to the SA or DA, ie it
provides the ability to identify      disjoint paths between nodal end
points.

The mere fact IEEE may      not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'
does not change the fact      that this is what they are. So I'm not clear
what your real point is      here.

regards, Neil


      

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True, however one can argue that SA is not a label, rather a connection property that the connection ingress knows about and signales downstream (just like bandwidth, for example), while the label is something it does not know yet and needs to get it from downstream so that the downstream node could recognize frames labeled with the label and forward them accordingly.<br><br>Have a great weekend.<br>Igor<br><br><b><i>neil.2.harrison@bt.com</i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;">   <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"><title>Message</title>   <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name="GENERATOR"> <div><span class="206501320-07092007"><font color="#800000" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">Hi Igor...I understand what you mean...and yes for *forwarding* purposes  (on the assumption the requirements of a connection are met) you are  right.&nbsp; It is, however,
 also important for the CP to tell the sink(s) of  the connection what SA it expects to appear in the CV OAM pkts and this esp  important if the co-ps mode layer network is based on the less optimal  label-swapping paradigm.&nbsp; Of course, if we don't use label-swapping as in  the case of PBB-TE then the CV function (of correct connectivity verification)  appears 'for free' in each/every traffic unit....not just the OAM pkts, which  are really only now required to distinguish a quiescent traffic case from a  simple broken connection.</font></span></div> <div><span class="206501320-07092007"><font color="#800000" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2"></font></span>&nbsp;</div> <div><span class="206501320-07092007"><font color="#800000" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">regards, Neil</font></span></div> <blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(128, 0, 0); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">   <div></div>   <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr"
 align="left" lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Original Message-----<br><b>From:</b> Igor Bryskin    [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> 07 September 2007    20:21<br><b>To:</b> Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R;    Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;    Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;    gels@rtg.ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> rcallon@juniper.net<br><b>Subject:</b> RE:    Closing the GELS Mailing List<br><br></font></div>   <div class="MsoPlainText">Hi Neil,<O:P></O:P></div>   <div class="MsoPlainText"><O:P></O:P></div>   <div class="MsoPlainText">I think there is a difference between a "data plane    label" which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server layer and a    "control plane label", which is a piece of information signaled between    adjacent controllers for the purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the    former is always a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance,    connection
 oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part of the data    plane label because it identifies the source of the connection. However, the    connection frames are forwarded according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection    ingress node, for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the    downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC DA/VID (or just VID,    for those who like the idea of the VID cross-connects    architecture).<O:P></O:P></div>   <div class="MsoPlainText"><O:P></O:P></div>   <div class="MsoPlainText">So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition    of data plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.<O:P></O:P></div>   <div class="MsoPlainText"><O:P></O:P></div>   <div class="MsoPlainText">Cheers,<O:P></O:P></div>   <div class="MsoPlainText">Igor    <O:P></O:P></div><br><br><b><i>neil.2.harrison@bt.com</i></b> wrote:    <blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px;
 margin-left: 5px;">Dimitri      wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian <SNIPPED><br><br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt; &gt; This is also something we would expect to describe      within<br>&gt; &gt; CCAMP although <br>&gt; &gt; "what is a label" would      come to us from the data plane <br>&gt; specification.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; do i      interpreet correctly your statement that if the <br>&gt; specification that      CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does <br>&gt; not speak about "label"      and its encoding there will be no <br>&gt; place to discuss any "label      processing" and "label <br>&gt; distribution" protocol in IETF - being      domain-wide or link-local<br>&gt; -<br>&gt; <br>&gt; in that case, isn't the      .1Q specification outside scope of <br>&gt; this effort since not referring      - as of today at least - to <br>&gt; any "label" semantic as part of the      Ethernet frame header <br>&gt; information field ?<br>&gt; <br>&gt;      thanks,<br>&gt;
 -d.<br><br>What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are?      These are all 'labels'.<br><br>You also have to remember that the nature of      the labels required in a<br>traffic unit are determined by the type of the      network mode one is<br>dealing with.<br><br>In the co-cs and co-ps modes we      have a construction known as a<br>'connection'. This implies specific      architectural requirements....but<br>the most significant, for this      discussion at least, is that a connection<br>must have a single source. What      this means is that one does not have to<br>incorporate a SA label in a co      mode traffic unit....under defect-free<br>conditions it is redundant      information as the connection itself provides<br>the source information.      {Compare this to the cl-ps mode which does not<br>have connections...here      having a SA in the traffic unit is essential}<br><br>Ergo why co-cs and      co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the<br>requirements
 of a      connection have only focussed on incorporating a DA<br>(forwarding) label.      Further, these forwarding labels only need to be<br>distinct in resolving      some number (N say) of different client layer<br>(link-connection) instances      within a server layer (network connection)<br>resource partition. However,      there are advantages from having both a SA<br>and DA label in a co-ps      traffic unit that are network unique and not<br>just link-connection unique      (ie not swapped)....the inherent robustness<br>under misconnectivity defects      (without any adjunct OAM flow) is one of<br>these. And of course, these are      the nature of the native labels one<br>already gets in Ethernet due to its      cl-ps mode origins. So why would<br>one even contemplate not using these      since they are already there?<br><br>The VID label is slightly different in      that one can consider it as a<br>'route discriminator label' and a local      extension to the SA
 or DA, ie it<br>provides the ability to identify      disjoint paths between nodal end<br>points.<br><br>The mere fact IEEE may      not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'<br>does not change the fact      that this is what they are. So I'm not clear<br>what your real point is      here.<br><br>regards, Neil<br><br></SNIPPED></blockquote><br>   <div>   </div><hr size="1">   Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=47093/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222">Comedy    with an Edge </a>to see what's on, when. </blockquote></blockquote><br><p>&#32;
      <hr size=1>Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48252/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC"> mobile search 
that gives answers</a>, not web links. 


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Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 21:16:18 +0000
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Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 19:40:07 +0100
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Hi Dimitri,

>>> beside the fact that there is an assumption on what
>>> label means and how it is represented in data plane
>>
>> This is also something we would expect to describe within
>> CCAMP although "what is a label" would come to us from
>> the data plane specification.
>
> do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the specification
> that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does not speak
> about "label" and its encoding there will be no place to discuss
> any "label processing" and "label distribution" protocol in IETF
> - being domain-wide or link-local

I expect the IEEE specification to define the forwarding paradigm.

For example: Frames in 802.1Qay are forwarded based on the checksum value
carried in the frame.

I expect us to build a GMPLS solution that can be used to configure/install
that forwarding paradigm.

If (for example) the destination MAC is the forwarding trigger, and the
destination MAC is also intended to have genuine network-wide scope and
identify the recipient of the frame to the whole network, then the label is
(by definition) network-scoped.

> in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of this effort
> since not referring - as of today at least - to any "label" semantic as
> part of the Ethernet frame header information field ?

No. That is like saying that TDM and lambda were out of scope for GMPLS
because their definitions didn't refer to labels.

The point is that a label is the identifier by which traffic on an interface
may be identified for forwarding. The data plane spec should indicate what
that identifier is, and we call that a label and have to pass it around in
signaling.

I have no idea whether that means that the .1Q spec is in scope or not.

A





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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 21:55:07 +0100
Message-ID: <2ECAA42C79676B42AEBAC11229CA7D0C0106EDD6@E03MVB2-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
Thread-Topic: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Thread-Index: AcfxLW80ieuPuOItQ0mTVyeeZdSmJAANdDTwAASP4EAAATdYkAAA1EUA
From: <neil.2.harrison@bt.com>
To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <zali@cisco.com>, <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: <rcallon@juniper.net>

OK, thanks.  I tend to take my cues from the unified modelling work
where I can see (and challenge if need be) the logical derivation of how
labelling and resource partitioning work in each network mode....I don't
see that degree of rigour in the shorter statement below.  Is there
something technically incorrect in what I stated previously?

regards, Neil

> -----Original Message-----
> From: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri
> [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be]=20
> Sent: 07 September 2007 19:23
> To: Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R; adrian@olddog.co.uk;=20
> zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com;=20
> ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
>=20
> point is:
>=20
> whether the ethernet frame header fields can be interpreted
> as "labels" that follows label switching rules applicable to=20
> an LSR and what are the implications on forwarding component=20
> behaviour when considering such "label encoding"
>=20
>=20
> note: per 3031 a label is: a short fixed length physically
> contiguous identifier which is used to identify a FEC,=20
> usually of local significance.=20
> =20
> -d.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: neil.2.harrison@bt.com [mailto:neil.2.harrison@bt.com]
> > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:07 PM
> > To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; adrian@olddog.co.uk;
> > zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com;=20
> > ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
> > Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> > Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> >=20
> > Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian
> <snipped>
> >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > This is also something we would expect to describe within CCAMP
> > > > although "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane
> > > specification.
> > >=20
> > > do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the specification

> > > that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does not speak about=20
> > > "label" and its encoding there will be no place to discuss any=20
> > > "label processing" and "label distribution" protocol in IETF -=20
> > > being domain-wide or link-local
> > > -
> > >=20
> > > in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of this=20
> > > effort since not referring - as of today at least - to any "label"

> > > semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header information field ?
> > >=20
> > > thanks,
> > > -d.
> >=20
> > What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are?  These are all=20
> > 'labels'.
> >=20
> > You also have to remember that the nature of the labels
> required in a
> > traffic unit are determined by the type of the network mode one is
> > dealing with.
> >=20
> > In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
> > 'connection'.  This implies specific architectural=20
> requirements....but
> > the most significant, for this discussion at least, is that a
> > connection must have a single source.  What this means is that one=20
> > does not have to
> > incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under=20
> defect-free
> > conditions it is redundant information as the connection
> > itself provides
> > the source information.  {Compare this to the cl-ps mode=20
> > which does not
> > have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit is=20
> essential}
> >=20
> > Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the
> > requirements of a connection have only focussed on=20
> incorporating a DA
> > (forwarding) label.  Further, these forwarding labels only
> need to be
> > distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different client layer
> > (link-connection) instances within a server layer (network
> connection)
> > resource partition.  However, there are advantages from
> having both a
> > SA and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and
> > not just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent
> > robustness
> > under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM=20
> flow) is one of
> > these.  And of course, these are the nature of the native labels one

> > already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins.  So
> why would
> > one even contemplate not using these since they are already there?
> >=20
> > The VID label is slightly different in that one can
> consider it as a
> > 'route discriminator label' and a local extension to the SA
> or DA, ie
> > it provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between nodal end

> > points.
> >=20
> > The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above quantities as
> 'labels'
> > does not change the fact that this is what they are.  So
> I'm not clear
> > what your real point is here.
> >=20
> > regards, Neil
> >=20
>=20



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To: <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <zali@cisco.com>, <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
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Hi Igor...I understand what you mean...and yes for *forwarding* purposes
(on the assumption the requirements of a connection are met) you are
right.  It is, however, also important for the CP to tell the sink(s) of
the connection what SA it expects to appear in the CV OAM pkts and this
esp important if the co-ps mode layer network is based on the less
optimal label-swapping paradigm.  Of course, if we don't use
label-swapping as in the case of PBB-TE then the CV function (of correct
connectivity verification) appears 'for free' in each/every traffic
unit....not just the OAM pkts, which are really only now required to
distinguish a quiescent traffic case from a simple broken connection.
=20
regards, Neil

-----Original Message-----
From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com]=20
Sent: 07 September 2007 20:21
To: Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R; Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be;
adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com;
ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List


Hi Neil,
I think there is a difference between a "data plane label" which is a
Layer Information (LI) used by a given server layer and a "control plane
label", which is a piece of information signaled between adjacent
controllers for the purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former
is always a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance, connection
oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part of the data plane
label because it identifies the source of the connection. However, the
connection frames are forwarded according to MAC DA/VID, and hence
connection ingress node, for example, needs only be signaled with this
tuple by the downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC
DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID
cross-connects architecture).
So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data plane
labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
Cheers,
Igor=20


neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:=20

Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian=20

> >=20
> > This is also something we would expect to describe within
> > CCAMP although=20
> > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane=20
> specification.
>=20
> do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the=20
> specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does=20
> not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no=20
> place to discuss any "label processing" and "label=20
> distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or link-local
> -
>=20
> in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of=20
> this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to=20
> any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header=20
> information field ?
>=20
> thanks,
> -d.

What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are? These are all 'labels'.

You also have to remember that the nature of the labels required in a
traffic unit are determined by the type of the network mode one is
dealing with.

In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
'connection'. This implies specific architectural requirements....but
the most significant, for this discussion at least, is that a connection
must have a single source. What this means is that one does not have to
incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under defect-free
conditions it is redundant information as the connection itself provides
the source information. {Compare this to the cl-ps mode which does not
have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit is essential}

Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the
requirements of a connection have only focussed on incorporating a DA
(forwarding) label. Further, these forwarding labels only need to be
distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different client layer
(link-connection) instances within a server layer (network connection)
resource partition. However, there are advantages from having both a SA
and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not
just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent robustness
under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM flow) is one of
these. And of course, these are the nature of the native labels one
already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins. So why would
one even contemplate not using these since they are already there?

The VID label is slightly different in that one can consider it as a
'route discriminator label' and a local extension to the SA or DA, ie it
provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between nodal end
points.

The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'
does not change the fact that this is what they are. So I'm not clear
what your real point is here.

regards, Neil






  _____ =20

Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D47093/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222>=

with an Edge to see what's on, when.=20


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D206501320-07092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2>Hi Igor...I understand what you mean...and yes for *forwarding* =
purposes=20
(on the assumption the requirements of a connection are met) you are=20
right.&nbsp; It is, however, also important for the CP to tell the =
sink(s) of=20
the connection what SA it expects to appear in the CV OAM pkts and this =
esp=20
important if the co-ps mode layer network is based on the less optimal=20
label-swapping paradigm.&nbsp; Of course, if we don't use label-swapping =
as in=20
the case of PBB-TE then the CV function (of correct connectivity =
verification)=20
appears 'for free' in each/every traffic unit....not just the OAM pkts, =
which=20
are really only now required to distinguish a quiescent traffic case =
from a=20
simple broken connection.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D206501320-07092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D206501320-07092007><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2>regards, Neil</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #800000 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Igor =
Bryskin=20
  [mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> 07 September 2007=20
  20:21<BR><B>To:</B> Harrison,N,Neil,JCGA1 R;=20
  Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be; adrian@olddog.co.uk; =
zali@cisco.com;=20
  Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org;=20
  gels@rtg.ietf.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> rcallon@juniper.net<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
RE:=20
  Closing the GELS Mailing List<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText>Hi Neil,<O:P></O:P></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText><O:P></O:P></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText>I think there is a difference between a =
"data plane=20
  label" which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server layer =
and a=20
  "control plane label", which is a piece of information signaled =
between=20
  adjacent controllers for the purpose of connection provisioning. IMO =
the=20
  former is always a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance,=20
  connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part of the =
data=20
  plane label because it identifies the source of the connection. =
However, the=20
  connection frames are forwarded according to MAC DA/VID, and hence =
connection=20
  ingress node, for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by =
the=20
  downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC DA/VID (or =
just VID,=20
  for those who like the idea of the VID cross-connects=20
  architecture).<O:P></O:P></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText><O:P></O:P></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText>So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the =
definition=20
  of data plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane =
labels.<O:P></O:P></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText><O:P></O:P></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText>Cheers,<O:P></O:P></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoPlainText>Igor=20
  <O:P></O:P></DIV><BR><BR><B><I>neil.2.harrison@bt.com</I></B> wrote:=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dreplbq=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">Dimitri=20
    wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian =
<SNIPPED><BR><BR>&gt;=20
    &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; This is also something we would expect to =
describe=20
    within<BR>&gt; &gt; CCAMP although <BR>&gt; &gt; "what is a label" =
would=20
    come to us from the data plane <BR>&gt; specification.<BR>&gt; =
<BR>&gt; do i=20
    interpreet correctly your statement that if the <BR>&gt; =
specification that=20
    CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does <BR>&gt; not speak about =
"label"=20
    and its encoding there will be no <BR>&gt; place to discuss any =
"label=20
    processing" and "label <BR>&gt; distribution" protocol in IETF - =
being=20
    domain-wide or link-local<BR>&gt; -<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; in that case, =
isn't the=20
    .1Q specification outside scope of <BR>&gt; this effort since not =
referring=20
    - as of today at least - to <BR>&gt; any "label" semantic as part of =
the=20
    Ethernet frame header <BR>&gt; information field ?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;=20
    thanks,<BR>&gt; -d.<BR><BR>What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and =
VID are?=20
    These are all 'labels'.<BR><BR>You also have to remember that the =
nature of=20
    the labels required in a<BR>traffic unit are determined by the type =
of the=20
    network mode one is<BR>dealing with.<BR><BR>In the co-cs and co-ps =
modes we=20
    have a construction known as a<BR>'connection'. This implies =
specific=20
    architectural requirements....but<BR>the most significant, for this=20
    discussion at least, is that a connection<BR>must have a single =
source. What=20
    this means is that one does not have to<BR>incorporate a SA label in =
a co=20
    mode traffic unit....under defect-free<BR>conditions it is redundant =

    information as the connection itself provides<BR>the source =
information.=20
    {Compare this to the cl-ps mode which does not<BR>have =
connections...here=20
    having a SA in the traffic unit is essential}<BR><BR>Ergo why co-cs =
and=20
    co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the<BR>requirements of =
a=20
    connection have only focussed on incorporating a DA<BR>(forwarding) =
label.=20
    Further, these forwarding labels only need to be<BR>distinct in =
resolving=20
    some number (N say) of different client layer<BR>(link-connection) =
instances=20
    within a server layer (network connection)<BR>resource partition. =
However,=20
    there are advantages from having both a SA<BR>and DA label in a =
co-ps=20
    traffic unit that are network unique and not<BR>just link-connection =
unique=20
    (ie not swapped)....the inherent robustness<BR>under misconnectivity =
defects=20
    (without any adjunct OAM flow) is one of<BR>these. And of course, =
these are=20
    the nature of the native labels one<BR>already gets in Ethernet due =
to its=20
    cl-ps mode origins. So why would<BR>one even contemplate not using =
these=20
    since they are already there?<BR><BR>The VID label is slightly =
different in=20
    that one can consider it as a<BR>'route discriminator label' and a =
local=20
    extension to the SA or DA, ie it<BR>provides the ability to identify =

    disjoint paths between nodal end<BR>points.<BR><BR>The mere fact =
IEEE may=20
    not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'<BR>does not change the =
fact=20
    that this is what they are. So I'm not clear<BR>what your real point =
is=20
    here.<BR><BR>regards, Neil<BR><BR></SNIPPED></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
  <P>
  <HR SIZE=3D1>
  Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D47093/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collectio=
ns/222">Comedy=20
  with an Edge </A>to see what's on, when. </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C7F191.665EE1C3--



Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 20:00:27 +0000
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 21:59:20 +0200
Message-ID: <8144761F31F48D43AD53D09F5350E38001321463@FRVELSMBS22.ad2.ad.alcatel.com>
Thread-Topic: Closing the GELS Mailing List
thread-index: AcfxLW80ieuPuOItQ0mTVyeeZdSmJAANdDTwAASP4EAAATdYkAABD4IQAAF0v+A=
From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>
To: "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com>, <neil.2.harrison@bt.com>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <zali@cisco.com>, <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: <rcallon@juniper.net>

don,=20


interesting 3 years ago you blaim me on the same list when i quoted this
definition when discussing applicability of GMPLS to Ethernet ;-)

the evolution of Ethernet forwarding components themselves leads to an
open issue today compared to the situation we observed a couple of years
ago. if this would not be true one would have not seen since this
definition has been written end 2000 in rfc3945 that there has been
lot's efforts in various bodies involved in Ethernet to incorporate as
part of that technology properties that would facilitate Ethernet
network operations -- and this due to its expected applicability in
environments for which that technology has not been initially designed
for -- and this is whole point actually (*)

back to the point: when that definition was written down it was
understood that adding GMPLS control plane to an Ethernet fowarding
plane would lead to address such expectations. nevertheless, we ack'ed
since the GELS BoF (held by Loa and myself) in 2005 that the
"combination" would be possible if one of the following conditions hold

- IEEE provides a data plane spec. that allows accommodating the fwd'ing
behaviour determined by GMPLS (and all related routing paradigms)

- IEEE ack's that some if its header's field can be processed
equivalently to a per-platform/link-local switching "label" with all its
resulting implications (if fact the answer was never totally clear at
the end)

- GMPLS evolves to sustain all control modes connectionless fwd'ing
would allow (this option was not even discussed)
=20

=3D> hence, the question remains open. i would love to see progress on
that matter (at least that IEEE tells us yes or no) but for the time
being we're left with unilateral interpretations that are blocking real
progress from the std perspective (the problem is mainly not technical
... it is the problem that CCAMP faces each time its prefered control
plane protocol suite tries to cover a technology)

=20
(*) it was felt 2 or 3 years ago that operators could help and provide
us with their expectation in that respect but no real outcome came out
of various tentatives to obtain such type of operational feedback


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Fedyk [mailto:dwfedyk@nortel.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:47 PM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; neil.2.harrison@bt.com;=20
> adrian@olddog.co.uk; zali@cisco.com;=20
> Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> Dmitri=20
>=20
> Quoting from GMPLS RFC 3945 seems far more applicable given we are
> talking a Generalized label switch router (LSR).
>=20
> "2. Layer-2 Switch Capable (L2SC) interfaces:
>=20
>       Interfaces that recognize frame/cell boundaries and can switch
>       data based on the content of the frame/cell header.  Examples
>       include interfaces on Ethernet bridges that switch data based on
>       the content of the MAC header and interfaces on ATM-LSRs that
>       forward data based on the ATM VPI/VCI. "
>=20
> Don=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
>=20
> point is:=20
>=20
> whether the ethernet frame header fields can be interpreted=20
> as "labels"
> that follows label switching rules applicable to an LSR and=20
> what are the
> implications on forwarding component behaviour when considering such
> "label encoding"
>=20
>=20
> note: per 3031 a label is: a short fixed length physically contiguous
> identifier which is used to identify a FEC, usually of local
> significance.=20
> =20
> -d.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: neil.2.harrison@bt.com [mailto:neil.2.harrison@bt.com]=20
> > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:07 PM
> > To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; adrian@olddog.co.uk;=20
> > zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com;=20
> > ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
> > Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> > Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> >=20
> > Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian=20
> <snipped>
> >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > This is also something we would expect to describe within
> > > > CCAMP although=20
> > > > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane=20
> > > specification.
> > >=20
> > > do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the=20
> > > specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does=20
> > > not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no=20
> > > place to discuss any "label processing" and "label=20
> > > distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or link-local
> > > -
> > >=20
> > > in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of=20
> > > this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to=20
> > > any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header=20
> > > information field ?
> > >=20
> > > thanks,
> > > -d.
> >=20
> > What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are?  These are=20
> > all 'labels'.
> >=20
> > You also have to remember that the nature of the labels=20
> required in a
> > traffic unit are determined by the type of the network mode one is
> > dealing with.
> >=20
> > In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
> > 'connection'.  This implies specific architectural=20
> requirements....but
> > the most significant, for this discussion at least, is that a=20
> > connection
> > must have a single source.  What this means is that one does=20
> > not have to
> > incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under=20
> defect-free
> > conditions it is redundant information as the connection=20
> > itself provides
> > the source information.  {Compare this to the cl-ps mode=20
> > which does not
> > have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit is=20
> essential}
> >=20
> > Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the
> > requirements of a connection have only focussed on=20
> incorporating a DA
> > (forwarding) label.  Further, these forwarding labels only=20
> need to be
> > distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different client layer
> > (link-connection) instances within a server layer (network=20
> connection)
> > resource partition.  However, there are advantages from=20
> > having both a SA
> > and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not
> > just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent=20
> > robustness
> > under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM=20
> flow) is one of
> > these.  And of course, these are the nature of the native labels one
> > already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins.  So=20
> why would
> > one even contemplate not using these since they are already there?
> >=20
> > The VID label is slightly different in that one can consider it as a
> > 'route discriminator label' and a local extension to the SA=20
> > or DA, ie it
> > provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between nodal end
> > points.
> >=20
> > The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'
> > does not change the fact that this is what they are.  So=20
> I'm not clear
> > what your real point is here.
> >=20
> > regards, Neil
> >=20
>=20
>=20



Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 19:32:21 +0000
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 21:28:32 +0200
Message-ID: <8144761F31F48D43AD53D09F5350E3800132145A@FRVELSMBS22.ad2.ad.alcatel.com>
Thread-Topic: Closing the GELS Mailing List
thread-index: Acfxfo1FWPWaKkHtTI6n07oaVlXTmgAA7BrA
From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>
To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <gels@rtg.ietf.org>

 hi adrian,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]=20
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:40 PM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> Hi Dimitri,
>=20
> >>> beside the fact that there is an assumption on what
> >>> label means and how it is represented in data plane
> >>
> >> This is also something we would expect to describe within
> >> CCAMP although "what is a label" would come to us from
> >> the data plane specification.
> >
> > do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the specification
> > that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does not speak
> > about "label" and its encoding there will be no place to discuss
> > any "label processing" and "label distribution" protocol in IETF
> > - being domain-wide or link-local
>=20
> I expect the IEEE specification to define the forwarding paradigm.
>=20
> For example: Frames in 802.1Qay are forwarded based on the=20
> checksum value
> carried in the frame.
>=20
> I expect us to build a GMPLS solution that can be used to=20
> configure/install
> that forwarding paradigm.
>=20
> If (for example) the destination MAC is the forwarding=20
> trigger, and the
> destination MAC is also intended to have genuine network-wide=20
> scope and
> identify the recipient of the frame to the whole network,=20
> then the label is
> (by definition) network-scoped.
>=20
> > in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of=20
> this effort
> > since not referring - as of today at least - to any "label"=20
> semantic as
> > part of the Ethernet frame header information field ?
>=20
> No. That is like saying that TDM and lambda were out of scope=20
> for GMPLS because their definitions didn't refer to labels.

we were confronted to that problem a couple of years ago. the
difference with techno's that do not encode label in the "data
plane" is that in the present case, the forwarding itself was
label value dependent

> The point is that a label is the identifier by which traffic=20
> on an interface
> may be identified for forwarding. The data plane spec should=20
> indicate what
> that identifier is, and we call that a label and have to pass=20
> it around in
> signaling.

this is already an extended version of a classical label def.

now, speaking about "label" switching router induces a behaviour that
was not felt "respectful" to the
operations of an Ethernet switch.

it was felt that the control plane was constraining the fwd'ing plane -
in brief, the point was incorporating a source-initiated explicitly
routed data path establishment (with or without the
associated resource reservation) was inducing behaviour not currently
supported by the Ethernet forwarding component - the reason for
maintaining the GELS list at that time was explicitly to maintain a
place where such discussion could happen

> I have no idea whether that means that the .1Q spec is in=20
> scope or not.

independently of this i think we're entering the discussion that was the
key reason why efforts did not succeed... .1Q spec did not change since
then in order to accommodate this. there is a simple hope that another
ongoing effort would allow for such kind of behaviour.

> A
>=20
>=20
>=20



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Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:21:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com, Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be, adrian@olddog.co.uk, zali@cisco.com, Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com, ccamp@ops.ietf.org, gels@rtg.ietf.org
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  Hi Neil,
   
  I think there is a difference between a "data plane label" which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of information signaled between adjacent controllers for the purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former is always a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance, connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part of the data plane label because it identifies the source of the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node, for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID cross-connects architecture).
   
  So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.
   
  Cheers,
  Igor 
  

neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote: Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian 

> > 
> > This is also something we would expect to describe within
> > CCAMP although 
> > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane 
> specification.
> 
> do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the 
> specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does 
> not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no 
> place to discuss any "label processing" and "label 
> distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or link-local
> -
> 
> in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of 
> this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to 
> any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header 
> information field ?
> 
> thanks,
> -d.

What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are?  These are all 'labels'.

You also have to remember that the nature of the labels required in a
traffic unit are determined by the type of the network mode one is
dealing with.

In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
'connection'.  This implies specific architectural requirements....but
the most significant, for this discussion at least, is that a connection
must have a single source.  What this means is that one does not have to
incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under defect-free
conditions it is redundant information as the connection itself provides
the source information.  {Compare this to the cl-ps mode which does not
have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit is essential}

Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the
requirements of a connection have only focussed on incorporating a DA
(forwarding) label.  Further, these forwarding labels only need to be
distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different client layer
(link-connection) instances within a server layer (network connection)
resource partition.  However, there are advantages from having both a SA
and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not
just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent robustness
under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM flow) is one of
these.  And of course, these are the nature of the native labels one
already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins.  So why would
one even contemplate not using these since they are already there?

The VID label is slightly different in that one can consider it as a
'route discriminator label' and a local extension to the SA or DA, ie it
provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between nodal end
points.

The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'
does not change the fact that this is what they are.  So I'm not clear
what your real point is here.

regards, Neil



       
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  <div class="MsoPlainText">Hi Neil,<o:p></o:p></div>  <div class="MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoPlainText">I think there is a difference between a "data plane label" which is a Layer Information (LI) used by a given server layer and a "control plane label", which is a piece of information signaled between adjacent controllers for the purpose of connection provisioning. IMO the former is always a superset of the latter. Let's take, for instance, connection oriented Ethernet. MAC SA is a very important part of the data plane label because it identifies the source of the connection. However, the connection frames are forwarded according to MAC DA/VID, and hence connection ingress node, for example, needs only be signaled with this tuple by the downstream neighbor, hence the control plane label is MAC DA/VID (or just VID, for those who like the idea of the VID cross-connects architecture).<o:p></o:p></div>  <div
 class="MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoPlainText">So, IMO IEEE should be responsible for the definition of data plane labels, while CCAMP for control plane labels.<o:p></o:p></div>  <div class="MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div>  <div class="MsoPlainText">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></div>  <div class="MsoPlainText">Igor <o:p></o:p></div>  <br><br><b><i>neil.2.harrison@bt.com</i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian <snipped><br><br>&gt; &gt; <br>&gt; &gt; This is also something we would expect to describe within<br>&gt; &gt; CCAMP although <br>&gt; &gt; "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane <br>&gt; specification.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the <br>&gt; specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does <br>&gt; not speak about "label" and its
 encoding there will be no <br>&gt; place to discuss any "label processing" and "label <br>&gt; distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or link-local<br>&gt; -<br>&gt; <br>&gt; in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of <br>&gt; this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to <br>&gt; any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header <br>&gt; information field ?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; thanks,<br>&gt; -d.<br><br>What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are?  These are all 'labels'.<br><br>You also have to remember that the nature of the labels required in a<br>traffic unit are determined by the type of the network mode one is<br>dealing with.<br><br>In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a<br>'connection'.  This implies specific architectural requirements....but<br>the most significant, for this discussion at least, is that a connection<br>must have a single source.  What this means is that one does not have
 to<br>incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under defect-free<br>conditions it is redundant information as the connection itself provides<br>the source information.  {Compare this to the cl-ps mode which does not<br>have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit is essential}<br><br>Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the<br>requirements of a connection have only focussed on incorporating a DA<br>(forwarding) label.  Further, these forwarding labels only need to be<br>distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different client layer<br>(link-connection) instances within a server layer (network connection)<br>resource partition.  However, there are advantages from having both a SA<br>and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not<br>just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent robustness<br>under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM flow) is one of<br>these.  And of
 course, these are the nature of the native labels one<br>already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins.  So why would<br>one even contemplate not using these since they are already there?<br><br>The VID label is slightly different in that one can consider it as a<br>'route discriminator label' and a local extension to the SA or DA, ie it<br>provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between nodal end<br>points.<br><br>The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'<br>does not change the fact that this is what they are.  So I'm not clear<br>what your real point is here.<br><br>regards, Neil<br><br></snipped></blockquote><br><p>&#32;
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Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:46:53 -0400
Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA4113DA7B3@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com>
Thread-Topic: Closing the GELS Mailing List
thread-index: AcfxLW80ieuPuOItQ0mTVyeeZdSmJAANdDTwAASP4EAAATdYkAABD4IQ
From: "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com>
To: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, <neil.2.harrison@bt.com>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <zali@cisco.com>, <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: <rcallon@juniper.net>

Dmitri=20

Quoting from GMPLS RFC 3945 seems far more applicable given we are
talking a Generalized label switch router (LSR).

"2. Layer-2 Switch Capable (L2SC) interfaces:

      Interfaces that recognize frame/cell boundaries and can switch
      data based on the content of the frame/cell header.  Examples
      include interfaces on Ethernet bridges that switch data based on
      the content of the MAC header and interfaces on ATM-LSRs that
      forward data based on the ATM VPI/VCI. "

Don=20

-----Original Message-----

point is:=20

whether the ethernet frame header fields can be interpreted as "labels"
that follows label switching rules applicable to an LSR and what are the
implications on forwarding component behaviour when considering such
"label encoding"


note: per 3031 a label is: a short fixed length physically contiguous
identifier which is used to identify a FEC, usually of local
significance.=20
=20
-d.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: neil.2.harrison@bt.com [mailto:neil.2.harrison@bt.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:07 PM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; adrian@olddog.co.uk;=20
> zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com;=20
> ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian <snipped>
>=20
> > >=20
> > > This is also something we would expect to describe within
> > > CCAMP although=20
> > > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane=20
> > specification.
> >=20
> > do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the=20
> > specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does=20
> > not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no=20
> > place to discuss any "label processing" and "label=20
> > distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or link-local
> > -
> >=20
> > in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of=20
> > this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to=20
> > any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header=20
> > information field ?
> >=20
> > thanks,
> > -d.
>=20
> What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are?  These are=20
> all 'labels'.
>=20
> You also have to remember that the nature of the labels required in a
> traffic unit are determined by the type of the network mode one is
> dealing with.
>=20
> In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
> 'connection'.  This implies specific architectural requirements....but
> the most significant, for this discussion at least, is that a=20
> connection
> must have a single source.  What this means is that one does=20
> not have to
> incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under defect-free
> conditions it is redundant information as the connection=20
> itself provides
> the source information.  {Compare this to the cl-ps mode=20
> which does not
> have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit is essential}
>=20
> Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the
> requirements of a connection have only focussed on incorporating a DA
> (forwarding) label.  Further, these forwarding labels only need to be
> distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different client layer
> (link-connection) instances within a server layer (network connection)
> resource partition.  However, there are advantages from=20
> having both a SA
> and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not
> just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent=20
> robustness
> under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM flow) is one of
> these.  And of course, these are the nature of the native labels one
> already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins.  So why would
> one even contemplate not using these since they are already there?
>=20
> The VID label is slightly different in that one can consider it as a
> 'route discriminator label' and a local extension to the SA=20
> or DA, ie it
> provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between nodal end
> points.
>=20
> The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'
> does not change the fact that this is what they are.  So I'm not clear
> what your real point is here.
>=20
> regards, Neil
>=20




Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 20:22:49 +0200
Message-ID: <8144761F31F48D43AD53D09F5350E38001321453@FRVELSMBS22.ad2.ad.alcatel.com>
Thread-Topic: Closing the GELS Mailing List
thread-index: AcfxLW80ieuPuOItQ0mTVyeeZdSmJAANdDTwAASP4EAAATdYkA==
From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>
To: <neil.2.harrison@bt.com>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <zali@cisco.com>, <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: <rcallon@juniper.net>

point is:=20

whether the ethernet frame header fields can be interpreted as "labels"
that follows label switching rules applicable to an LSR and what are the
implications on forwarding component behaviour when considering such
"label encoding"


note: per 3031 a label is: a short fixed length physically contiguous
identifier which is used to identify a FEC, usually of local
significance.=20
=20
-d.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: neil.2.harrison@bt.com [mailto:neil.2.harrison@bt.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:07 PM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; adrian@olddog.co.uk;=20
> zali@cisco.com; Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com;=20
> ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels@rtg.ietf.org
> Cc: rcallon@juniper.net
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian <snipped>
>=20
> > >=20
> > > This is also something we would expect to describe within
> > > CCAMP although=20
> > > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane=20
> > specification.
> >=20
> > do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the=20
> > specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does=20
> > not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no=20
> > place to discuss any "label processing" and "label=20
> > distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or link-local
> > -
> >=20
> > in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of=20
> > this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to=20
> > any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header=20
> > information field ?
> >=20
> > thanks,
> > -d.
>=20
> What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are?  These are=20
> all 'labels'.
>=20
> You also have to remember that the nature of the labels required in a
> traffic unit are determined by the type of the network mode one is
> dealing with.
>=20
> In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
> 'connection'.  This implies specific architectural requirements....but
> the most significant, for this discussion at least, is that a=20
> connection
> must have a single source.  What this means is that one does=20
> not have to
> incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under defect-free
> conditions it is redundant information as the connection=20
> itself provides
> the source information.  {Compare this to the cl-ps mode=20
> which does not
> have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit is essential}
>=20
> Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the
> requirements of a connection have only focussed on incorporating a DA
> (forwarding) label.  Further, these forwarding labels only need to be
> distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different client layer
> (link-connection) instances within a server layer (network connection)
> resource partition.  However, there are advantages from=20
> having both a SA
> and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not
> just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent=20
> robustness
> under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM flow) is one of
> these.  And of course, these are the nature of the native labels one
> already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins.  So why would
> one even contemplate not using these since they are already there?
>=20
> The VID label is slightly different in that one can consider it as a
> 'route discriminator label' and a local extension to the SA=20
> or DA, ie it
> provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between nodal end
> points.
>=20
> The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'
> does not change the fact that this is what they are.  So I'm not clear
> what your real point is here.
>=20
> regards, Neil
>=20



Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
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Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 19:07:28 +0100
Message-ID: <2ECAA42C79676B42AEBAC11229CA7D0C0106EDCA@E03MVB2-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
Thread-Topic: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Thread-Index: AcfxLW80ieuPuOItQ0mTVyeeZdSmJAANdDTwAASP4EA=
From: <neil.2.harrison@bt.com>
To: <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <zali@cisco.com>, <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: <rcallon@juniper.net>

Dimitri wrote 07 September 2007 16:36 in response to Adrian <snipped>

> >=20
> > This is also something we would expect to describe within
> > CCAMP although=20
> > "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane=20
> specification.
>=20
> do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the=20
> specification that CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does=20
> not speak about "label" and its encoding there will be no=20
> place to discuss any "label processing" and "label=20
> distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or link-local
> -
>=20
> in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of=20
> this effort since not referring - as of today at least - to=20
> any "label" semantic as part of the Ethernet frame header=20
> information field ?
>=20
> thanks,
> -d.

What do you think a MAC DA, MAC SA and VID are?  These are all 'labels'.

You also have to remember that the nature of the labels required in a
traffic unit are determined by the type of the network mode one is
dealing with.

In the co-cs and co-ps modes we have a construction known as a
'connection'.  This implies specific architectural requirements....but
the most significant, for this discussion at least, is that a connection
must have a single source.  What this means is that one does not have to
incorporate a SA label in a co mode traffic unit....under defect-free
conditions it is redundant information as the connection itself provides
the source information.  {Compare this to the cl-ps mode which does not
have connections...here having a SA in the traffic unit is essential}

Ergo why co-cs and co-ps mode technologies to date that respect the
requirements of a connection have only focussed on incorporating a DA
(forwarding) label.  Further, these forwarding labels only need to be
distinct in resolving some number (N say) of different client layer
(link-connection) instances within a server layer (network connection)
resource partition.  However, there are advantages from having both a SA
and DA label in a co-ps traffic unit that are network unique and not
just link-connection unique (ie not swapped)....the inherent robustness
under misconnectivity defects (without any adjunct OAM flow) is one of
these.  And of course, these are the nature of the native labels one
already gets in Ethernet due to its cl-ps mode origins.  So why would
one even contemplate not using these since they are already there?

The VID label is slightly different in that one can consider it as a
'route discriminator label' and a local extension to the SA or DA, ie it
provides the ability to identify disjoint paths between nodal end
points.

The mere fact IEEE may not refer to the above quantities as 'labels'
does not change the fact that this is what they are.  So I'm not clear
what your real point is here.

regards, Neil



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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 17:35:41 +0200
Message-ID: <8144761F31F48D43AD53D09F5350E380013213D5@FRVELSMBS22.ad2.ad.alcatel.com>
Thread-Topic: Closing the GELS Mailing List
thread-index: AcfxLW80ieuPuOItQ0mTVyeeZdSmJAANdDTw
From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>
To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" <zali@cisco.com>, "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "gels" <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>

=20
adrian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]=20
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 10:59 AM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; Zafar Ali (zali); Attila Takacs=20
> (IJ/ETH); ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: Re: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> I think this thread is a representation in miniature of the issues=20
> involved...
>=20
> - All the emails in this thread have been copied to both mailing lists
> - All the participants in the thread are subscribed to both=20
> mailing lists
>=20
> No, it doesn't cost to have both lists active.
> No, it doesn't cost to have all of the threads on CCAMP.
>=20
> Please note that we should not discuss the data plane. If you don't=20
> understand (or don't like, or don't want to use) the data=20
> plane you should=20
> have your discussions in private or at the IEEE.
>=20
> Dimitri said...
>=20
> >> - Label allocation and swapping rules
> > is that not a forwarding component discussion ?
>=20
> It is certainly informed by the forwarding component (i.e.=20
> the definition of=20
> the data plane), but the rules we need to define are the=20
> rules for the=20
> control plane. I.e. (and for example, only) if the forwarding=20
> plane defines=20
> that the label allocated on the upstream interface must be=20
> numerically one=20
> greater than the label allocated on the downstream interface,=20
> this rule must=20
> be referenced in the control plane specification. This is=20
> important since it=20
> is a constraint placed on the normal per-interface operation=20
> of GMPLS. That=20
> makes it CCAMP work.
>=20
> > beside the fact that there is an assumption on what
> > label means and how it is represented in data plane
>=20
> This is also something we would expect to describe within=20
> CCAMP although=20
> "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane specification.

do i interpreet correctly your statement that if the specification that
CCAMP is going to receive from IEEE does not speak about "label" and its
encoding there will be no place to discuss any "label processing" and
"label distribution" protocol in IETF - being domain-wide or link-local
-

in that case, isn't the .1Q specification outside scope of this effort
since not referring - as of today at least - to any "label" semantic as
part of the Ethernet frame header information field ?

thanks,
-d.


> Thanks,
> Adrian=20
>=20
>=20
>=20



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Delivery-date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 15:16:29 +0000
Message-ID: <029b01c7f158$a43c9bc0$0601a8c0@pc6>
Reply-To: "tom.petch" <cfinss@dial.pipex.com>
From: "tom.petch" <cfinss@dial.pipex.com>
To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "gels" <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>
Subject: Re: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:25:46 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Adrian

Just to break the pattern, I am not on the GELS list - never got round to it -
and would be very happy to see them merged.

A list should reflect a community of interest and I think that there is only one
here.  The work of CCAMP has a wider impact on other SDOs and liaisons form a
significant part of CCAMP's work.  Where GELS is different is the SDO to liaise
with, but I do not see that as justification for a separate list.

Tom Petch


----- Original Message -----
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>; "Zafar
Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>; "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)"
<Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>; <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>; "gels" <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: Closing the GELS Mailing List


> I think this thread is a representation in miniature of the issues
> involved...
>
> - All the emails in this thread have been copied to both mailing lists
> - All the participants in the thread are subscribed to both mailing lists
>
> No, it doesn't cost to have both lists active.
> No, it doesn't cost to have all of the threads on CCAMP.
>
> Please note that we should not discuss the data plane. If you don't
> understand (or don't like, or don't want to use) the data plane you should
> have your discussions in private or at the IEEE.
>
> Dimitri said...
>
> >> - Label allocation and swapping rules
> > is that not a forwarding component discussion ?
>
> It is certainly informed by the forwarding component (i.e. the definition of
> the data plane), but the rules we need to define are the rules for the
> control plane. I.e. (and for example, only) if the forwarding plane defines
> that the label allocated on the upstream interface must be numerically one
> greater than the label allocated on the downstream interface, this rule must
> be referenced in the control plane specification. This is important since it
> is a constraint placed on the normal per-interface operation of GMPLS. That
> makes it CCAMP work.
>
> > beside the fact that there is an assumption on what
> > label means and how it is represented in data plane
>
> This is also something we would expect to describe within CCAMP although
> "what is a label" would come to us from the data plane specification.
>
> Thanks,
> Adrian




Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:12:28 +0000
Message-ID: <047601c7f158$f5121ed0$0302a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Lam, Hing-Kam \(Kam\)" <hklam@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Working Group Last Call on MLN Requirements and Evaluation
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:10:59 +0100
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Remarkable!

Don't trust your mailer if it comes from Microsoft!

That URL showed as 
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-reqs-05.txt 
right up until it arrive in my inbox!

But you are also very welcome to book our village hall :-)

Adrian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Lam, Hing-Kam (Kam)" <hklam@alcatel-lucent.com>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 2:55 PM
Subject: Working Group Last Call on MLN Requirements and Evaluation


> Hi,
>
> This email starts the working group last call on
>
> http://www.olddog.co.uk/pentredwr.htm
> and
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-eval-03.txt
>
> This last call will include scope for review of the documents by ITU-T 
> SG15 Q14 during their interim meeting in Stuttgart.
>
> The last call will end at 12 noon GMT on 21st September 2007.
>
> Please send your comments by email to the CCAMP list or to the CCAMP 
> chairs (or by formal liaison ;-).
>
> Thanks,
> Adrian
>
>
> 





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 13:57:41 +0000
Message-ID: <046401c7f156$b7925310$0302a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Lam, Hing-Kam \(Kam\)" <hklam@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: Working Group Last Call on MLN Requirements and Evaluation
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:55:01 +0100
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Hi,

This email starts the working group last call on

http://www.olddog.co.uk/pentredwr.htm
and
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-eval-03.txt

This last call will include scope for review of the documents by ITU-T SG15 
Q14 during their interim meeting in Stuttgart.

The last call will end at 12 noon GMT on 21st September 2007.

Please send your comments by email to the CCAMP list or to the CCAMP chairs 
(or by formal liaison ;-).

Thanks,
Adrian 





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 09:47:13 +0000
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:46:00 +0800
From: Mach Chen <mach@huawei.com>
Subject: Update for the "IGP extention in support of Inter-AS TE" drafts(resend for some nits in the previous email:-))
To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Message-id: <00ea01c7f133$e6248e50$4f0c6f0a@china.huawei.com>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Hi forks,

 

We have updated these two I-Ds since IETF 69th in Chicago, where we received
a lot of useful comments and suggestion. You could reach them by the
following links:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extensi
on-01.txt

 

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chen-ccamp-isis-interas-te-extensi
on-01.txt

 

Compare to rev.00, the main changes in rev.01 are listed below:

 

1. Wording changes in several places;

2. According to Kireeti's comments, make a clear statement "There is no OSPF
adjacency running on the inter-AS link"; 

3. Enhance the PCE-based scenario to explain that the AS number property of
an inter-AS TE link is needed, and clearly state that the AS number sub-TLV
is mandatory; 

4. Add the missing part about that the local ASBR SHOULD do a "proxy"
advertisement for the backward of an inter-AS TE link; 5. Enhance the
Security section.

 

Any feedback and comments are welcome!

Best regards,

Mach

 


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</head>

<body lang=ZH-CN link=blue vlink=purple style='text-justify-trim:punctuation'>

<div class=Section1 style='layout-grid:15.6pt'>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'>Hi
forks,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'>We
have updated these two I-Ds since IETF 69th in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City
 w:st="on">Chicago</st1:City></st1:place>, where we received a lot of useful
comments and suggestion. You could reach them by the following links:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><u><font size=1 color=blue
face=Arial><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue;layout-grid-mode:both'><a
href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt</a></span></font></u><font
size=1 face=Arial><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;
layout-grid-mode:both'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><u><font size=1 color=blue
face=Arial><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue;layout-grid-mode:both'><a
href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chen-ccamp-isis-interas-te-extension-01.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chen-ccamp-isis-interas-te-extension-01.txt</a></span></font></u><font
size=1 face=Arial><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;
layout-grid-mode:both'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'>Compare
to rev.00, the main changes in rev.01 are listed below:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'>1.
Wording changes in several places;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'>2.
According to Kireeti's comments, make a clear statement &quot;There is no OSPF
adjacency running on the inter-AS link&quot;; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'>3. Enhance
the PCE-based scenario to explain that the AS number property of an inter-AS TE
link is needed, and clearly state that the AS number sub-TLV is mandatory; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'>4. Add
the missing part about that the local ASBR SHOULD do a &quot;proxy&quot; advertisement
for the backward of an inter-AS TE link; 5. Enhance the Security section.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'>Any
feedback and comments are welcome!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:normal'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;layout-grid-mode:both'>Mach<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=Arial><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:
9.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

--Boundary_(ID_haGQROjryIU2to16pF2lnw)--



Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 09:23:45 +0000
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:21:53 +0800
From: Mach Chen <mach@huawei.com>
Subject: Update for the "IGP extention in support of Inter-AS TE" drafts
To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Message-id: <00de01c7f130$87e737f0$4f0c6f0a@china.huawei.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Thread-index: AcfwwuDZhXH7tKtURuC2IIrBrm8HUgAP/ARw

Hi forks,

We have updated these two I-Ds since IETF 69th in Chicago, where we received
a lot of useful comments and suggestion. You could reach them by the
following links:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extensi
on-01.txt

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-chen-isis-interas-te-extensio
n-01.txt


Compare to rev.00, the main changes in rev.01 are listed below:

1. Wording changes in several places;
2. According to Kireeti's comments, make a clear statement "There is no OSPF
adjacency running on the inter-AS link";
3. Enhance the PCE-based scenario to explain that the AS number property of
an inter-AS TE link is needed, and clearly state that the AS number sub-TLV
is mandatory;
4. Add the missing part about that the local ASBR SHOULD do a "proxy"
advertisement for the backward of an inter-AS TE link;
5. Enhance the Security section.

Any feedback and comments are welcome!
Best regards,
Mach





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 09:01:45 +0000
Message-ID: <039601c7f12d$69406a40$0302a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" <zali@cisco.com>, "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "gels" <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>
Subject: Re: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:59:28 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I think this thread is a representation in miniature of the issues 
involved...

- All the emails in this thread have been copied to both mailing lists
- All the participants in the thread are subscribed to both mailing lists

No, it doesn't cost to have both lists active.
No, it doesn't cost to have all of the threads on CCAMP.

Please note that we should not discuss the data plane. If you don't 
understand (or don't like, or don't want to use) the data plane you should 
have your discussions in private or at the IEEE.

Dimitri said...

>> - Label allocation and swapping rules
> is that not a forwarding component discussion ?

It is certainly informed by the forwarding component (i.e. the definition of 
the data plane), but the rules we need to define are the rules for the 
control plane. I.e. (and for example, only) if the forwarding plane defines 
that the label allocated on the upstream interface must be numerically one 
greater than the label allocated on the downstream interface, this rule must 
be referenced in the control plane specification. This is important since it 
is a constraint placed on the normal per-interface operation of GMPLS. That 
makes it CCAMP work.

> beside the fact that there is an assumption on what
> label means and how it is represented in data plane

This is also something we would expect to describe within CCAMP although 
"what is a label" would come to us from the data plane specification.

Thanks,
Adrian 





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From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt 
Message-Id: <E1ITNkj-0007qC-W0@stiedprstage1.ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:15:01 -0400

--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: OSPF Traffic Engineering (OSPF-TE) Extensions in Support of Inter-AS Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering
	Author(s)	: M. Chen, R. Zhang
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt
	Pages		: 13
	Date		: 2007-9-6
	
This document describes extensions to the OSPF v2 and v3 Traffic 
   Engineering (OSPF-TE) mechanisms to support Multiprotocol Label 
   Switching (MPLS) and Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Traffic Engineering(TE) 
   for multiple Autonomous Systems (ASes). It defines OSPF-TE extensions 
   for the flooding of TE information about inter-AS links which can be 
   used to perform inter-AS TE path computation.

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Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:59:18 +0000
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 20:57:22 +0200
Message-ID: <8144761F31F48D43AD53D09F5350E380012B24AF@FRVELSMBS22.ad2.ad.alcatel.com>
Thread-Topic: Closing the GELS Mailing List
thread-index: AcfwaKdFjH0nMrF2Tw6ZFzl7WVA5awAJ0mGgAAB7qvAAAvuP4AAFZYUw
From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>
To: "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" <zali@cisco.com>, "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "gels" <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>

zafar

the main problem remains - to take a base example
in its work plan Adrian mentions

2. "GMPLS control of P2P TE for PBB-TE (802.1Qay)"

[...]
- Label allocation and swapping rules=20
[...]

is that not a forwarding component discussion ?

beside the fact that there is an assumption on what
label means and how it is represented in data plane

thanks,
-d.


=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:zali@cisco.com]=20
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 5:54 PM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Adrian=20
> Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri
> > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 10:27 AM
> > To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> > Cc: Ross Callon
> > Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> >=20
> > attila - yes. but CCAMP is only about "Control" -
>=20
> And for interface with Standards Body owning forwarding. Not=20
> to mention
> we are all "technical". What else is left?=20
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> Regards... Zafar=20
>=20
> > -d.
> >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> > > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Attila=20
> > Takacs (IJ/ETH)
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 4:25 PM
> > > To: Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> > > Cc: Ross Callon
> > > Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> > >=20
> > > Hi all,
> > >=20
> > > I support closing the gels list.=20
> > >=20
> > > Since decoupling the discussions into "techno-specific" and GMPLS=20
> > > specific part is very difficult, if at all possible, I do=20
> > not see how=20
> > > to benefit from a separate forum for techno-specific=20
> > aspects. IMHO, it=20
> > > would be much clearer having a single forum for all related=20
> > > discussions anyway.
> > >=20
> > > Best regards,
> > > Attila
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> > > > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:27 AM
> > > > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> > > > Cc: Ross Callon
> > > > Subject: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> > > >=20
> > > > We propose to close the GELS mailing list.
> > > >=20
> > > > Loa wrote...
> > > >=20
> > > > > I tend to support this, but it begs two questions:
> > > > >
> > > > > - when will the charter update be ack'ed?
> > > >=20
> > > > I don't know, and I can't promise that it will be=20
> ack'ed. but the=20
> > > > Routing ADs appear to support the change.
> > > >=20
> > > > > - in the (unlikely) case where we don't get an ack for
> > > > gels work the
> > > > > gels-list won't be needed anyhow, so;  isn't the effect of
> > > > the of your
> > > > > statement below that  the gels-list is dead as of now?=20
> > Especially=20
> > > > > since the  on thing we are discussing at the moment is
> > > the charter
> > > > > update and this is on the ccamp list??
> > > >=20
> > > > Absolutely.
> > > >=20
> > > > I'll give you all a last chance to scream.
> > > >=20
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Adrian
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> >=20
>=20



Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:57:59 +0000
To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org
Subject:  RFC 4990 on Use of Addresses in Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Networks
From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org
Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Message-Id: <20070906155527.C944BE0FBA@bosco.isi.edu>
Date: Thu,  6 Sep 2007 08:55:27 -0700 (PDT)

A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

        
        RFC 4990

        Title:      Use of Addresses in Generalized 
                    Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Networks 
        Author:     K. Shiomoto, R. Papneja,
                    R. Rabbat
        Status:     Informational
        Date:       September 2007
        Mailbox:    shiomoto.kohei@lab.ntt.co.jp, 
                    rabbat@alum.mit.edu, 
                    rpapneja@isocore.com
        Pages:      23
        Characters: 50908
        Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None

        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-addressing-08.txt

        URL:        http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4990.txt

This document clarifies the use of addresses in Generalized
Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) networks.  The aim is to
facilitate interworking of GMPLS-capable Label Switching Routers
(LSRs).  The document is based on experience gained in implementation,
interoperability testing, and deployment.

The document describes how to interpret address and identifier fields
within GMPLS protocols, and how to choose which addresses to set in
those fields for specific control plane usage models.  It also
discusses how to handle IPv6 sources and destinations in the MPLS and
GMPLS Traffic Engineering (TE) Management Information Base (MIB)
modules.

This document does not define new procedures or processes.  Whenever
this document makes requirements statements or recommendations, these
are taken from normative text in the referenced RFCs.  This memo provides information for the Internet community.

This document is a product of the Common Control and Measurement Plane
Working Group of the IETF.


INFORMATIONAL: This memo provides information for the Internet community. 
It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution
of this memo is unlimited.

This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list.
Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list
should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG.  Requests to be
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be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG.

Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending
an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body 

help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example:

        To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG
        Subject: getting rfcs

        help: ways_to_get_rfcs

Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the
author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG.  Unless
specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for
unlimited distribution.

Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to
RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG.  Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC
Authors, for further information.


The RFC Editor Team
USC/Information Sciences Institute

...





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:54:59 +0000
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 11:54:24 -0400
Message-ID: <BABC859E6D0B9A4D8448CC7F41CD2B070514F5A5@xmb-rtp-203.amer.cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Thread-Index: AcfwaKdFjH0nMrF2Tw6ZFzl7WVA5awAJ0mGgAAB7qvAAAvuP4A==
From: "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "gels" <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 10:27 AM
> To: Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH); Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> attila - yes. but CCAMP is only about "Control" -
>=20

And for interface with Standards Body owning forwarding. Not to mention
we are all "technical". What else is left?=20

Thanks

Regards... Zafar=20

> -d.
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Attila=20
> Takacs (IJ/ETH)
> > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 4:25 PM
> > To: Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> > Cc: Ross Callon
> > Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> >=20
> > Hi all,
> >=20
> > I support closing the gels list.=20
> >=20
> > Since decoupling the discussions into "techno-specific" and GMPLS=20
> > specific part is very difficult, if at all possible, I do=20
> not see how=20
> > to benefit from a separate forum for techno-specific=20
> aspects. IMHO, it=20
> > would be much clearer having a single forum for all related=20
> > discussions anyway.
> >=20
> > Best regards,
> > Attila
> >=20
> >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> > > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:27 AM
> > > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> > > Cc: Ross Callon
> > > Subject: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> > >=20
> > > We propose to close the GELS mailing list.
> > >=20
> > > Loa wrote...
> > >=20
> > > > I tend to support this, but it begs two questions:
> > > >
> > > > - when will the charter update be ack'ed?
> > >=20
> > > I don't know, and I can't promise that it will be ack'ed. but the=20
> > > Routing ADs appear to support the change.
> > >=20
> > > > - in the (unlikely) case where we don't get an ack for
> > > gels work the
> > > > gels-list won't be needed anyhow, so;  isn't the effect of
> > > the of your
> > > > statement below that  the gels-list is dead as of now?=20
> Especially=20
> > > > since the  on thing we are discussing at the moment is
> > the charter
> > > > update and this is on the ccamp list??
> > >=20
> > > Absolutely.
> > >=20
> > > I'll give you all a last chance to scream.
> > >=20
> > > Thanks,
> > > Adrian
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> >=20
> >=20
>=20



Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:54:53 +0000
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 11:53:14 -0400
Message-ID: <BABC859E6D0B9A4D8448CC7F41CD2B070514F5A3@xmb-rtp-203.amer.cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Thread-Index: AcfwaJE8wbS3itLlS+ScmNci3tMldgAD569QAAZHkjAAAOoLAA==
From: "Zafar Ali \(zali\)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com>, "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "gels" <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>
DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2723; t=1189093997; x=1189957997; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=zali@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Zafar=20Ali=20\(zali\)=22=20<zali@cisco.com> |Subject:=20RE=3A=20Closing=20the=20GELS=20Mailing=20List |Sender:=20 |To:=20=22Don=20Fedyk=22=20<dwfedyk@nortel.com>,=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= 20=22PAPADIMITRIOU=20Dimitri=22=20<Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be >,=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=22Adrian=20Farrel=22=20<adrian@olddog.co.uk> ,=20<ccamp@ops.ietf.org>,=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=22gels=22=20<gels@rtg .ietf.org>; bh=LvLBrTv8gJ1vZiC45tC79sLy4VLmBeTSHTW/uGSGvj0=; b=plRMoj3k2q8e8IAPYjS/3Ws5hzCTaXofwY5q/Mo+xhrkE+ub0Sgo0xo+1O+KLvpcOi+Rvozv AAbhrmJkr73bqsx+mWqTvWWy5tWLMMM4KvGzApd/ZbE8sYOBtFQhuIvF;
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Don Fedyk
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 10:41 AM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> Hi Adrian
>=20
> Dmitri does have a point that if there is a topic that heads=20
> into the "weeds" we could direct it to the GELS list explicitly. =20
>=20
> Is there a cost of keeping it open?

Is there a cost for discussing them at CCAMP? I prefer a central place
for all discussions.  =20

Thanks

Regards... Zafar=20

>=20
> Regards,
> Don =20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 10:00 AM
> To: Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> adrian,
>=20
> you could leave the gels list for the list for the=20
> techno-specific discussions and the ccamp list for the=20
> non-techno specific discussions
>=20
> in any case, i believe the value of gels was so far to allow=20
> open discussion on a topic that was on charter=20
>=20
> -> question: does proposed incorporation in charter (with=20
> milestones to
> be better shaped inline with progress of IEEE) elevate any=20
> other need ?
> complete decoupling of discussion has been shown to be=20
> difficult to be realized in the past
>=20
> thanks,
> -dimitri.
>=20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:27 AM
> > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> > Cc: Ross Callon
> > Subject: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> >=20
> > We propose to close the GELS mailing list.
> >=20
> > Loa wrote...
> >=20
> > > I tend to support this, but it begs two questions:
> > >
> > > - when will the charter update be ack'ed?
> >=20
> > I don't know, and I can't promise that it will be ack'ed. but the=20
> > Routing ADs appear to support the change.
> >=20
> > > - in the (unlikely) case where we don't get an ack for  gels work=20
> > > the gels-list won't be needed anyhow, so;  isn't the=20
> effect of the=20
> > > of your statement below that  the gels-list is dead as of now?=20
> > > Especially since the  on thing we are discussing at the moment is=20
> > > the charter  update and this is on the ccamp list??
> >=20
> > Absolutely.
> >=20
> > I'll give you all a last chance to scream.
> >=20
> > Thanks,
> > Adrian
>=20



Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:02:42 +0000
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 17:01:43 +0200
Message-ID: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E9102067D9E@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se>
Thread-Topic: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Thread-Index: AcfwaJE8wbS3itLlS+ScmNci3tMldgAD569QAAZHkjAAANAA4A==
From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>
To: "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com>, "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "gels" <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>

Hi Don,

This sounds good, however I doubt that it can be smoothly enforced. How
to determine when a discussion is to be moved to the gels list, and,
maybe, when is it eligible to be moved back to ccamp? It will be
difficult to follow up mixed threads.

On the other hand, I suspect that most of the ccamp list members are
also subscribed to the gels list so I do not really see the benefit of
having two lists; expect setting different filtering rules in your
mailer (well, this might be an argument enough in itself :-))

Best regards,
Attila

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Don Fedyk
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 4:41 PM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> Hi Adrian
>=20
> Dmitri does have a point that if there is a topic that heads=20
> into the "weeds" we could direct it to the GELS list explicitly. =20
>=20
> Is there a cost of keeping it open?
>=20
> Regards,
> Don =20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 10:00 AM
> To: Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> adrian,
>=20
> you could leave the gels list for the list for the=20
> techno-specific discussions and the ccamp list for the=20
> non-techno specific discussions
>=20
> in any case, i believe the value of gels was so far to allow=20
> open discussion on a topic that was on charter=20
>=20
> -> question: does proposed incorporation in charter (with=20
> milestones to
> be better shaped inline with progress of IEEE) elevate any=20
> other need ?
> complete decoupling of discussion has been shown to be=20
> difficult to be realized in the past
>=20
> thanks,
> -dimitri.
>=20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:27 AM
> > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> > Cc: Ross Callon
> > Subject: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> >=20
> > We propose to close the GELS mailing list.
> >=20
> > Loa wrote...
> >=20
> > > I tend to support this, but it begs two questions:
> > >
> > > - when will the charter update be ack'ed?
> >=20
> > I don't know, and I can't promise that it will be ack'ed. but the=20
> > Routing ADs appear to support the change.
> >=20
> > > - in the (unlikely) case where we don't get an ack for  gels work=20
> > > the gels-list won't be needed anyhow, so;  isn't the=20
> effect of the=20
> > > of your statement below that  the gels-list is dead as of now?=20
> > > Especially since the  on thing we are discussing at the moment is=20
> > > the charter  update and this is on the ccamp list??
> >=20
> > Absolutely.
> >=20
> > I'll give you all a last chance to scream.
> >=20
> > Thanks,
> > Adrian
>=20
>=20
>=20



Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:42:15 +0000
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:41:12 -0400
Message-ID: <34B3EAA5B3066A42914D28C5ECF5FEA411396BAF@zrtphxm2.corp.nortel.com>
Thread-Topic: Closing the GELS Mailing List
thread-index: AcfwaJE8wbS3itLlS+ScmNci3tMldgAD569QAAZHkjA=
From: "Don Fedyk" <dwfedyk@nortel.com>
To: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "gels" <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>

Hi Adrian

Dmitri does have a point that if there is a topic that heads into the
"weeds" we could direct it to the GELS list explicitly. =20

Is there a cost of keeping it open?

Regards,
Don =20

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 10:00 AM
To: Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
Cc: Ross Callon
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List

adrian,

you could leave the gels list for the list for the techno-specific
discussions and the ccamp list for the non-techno specific discussions

in any case, i believe the value of gels was so far to allow open
discussion on a topic that was on charter=20

-> question: does proposed incorporation in charter (with milestones to
be better shaped inline with progress of IEEE) elevate any other need ?
complete decoupling of discussion has been shown to be difficult to be
realized in the past

thanks,
-dimitri.


=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:27 AM
> To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> We propose to close the GELS mailing list.
>=20
> Loa wrote...
>=20
> > I tend to support this, but it begs two questions:
> >
> > - when will the charter update be ack'ed?
>=20
> I don't know, and I can't promise that it will be ack'ed. but=20
> the Routing ADs appear to support the change.
>=20
> > - in the (unlikely) case where we don't get an ack for
> >  gels work the gels-list won't be needed anyhow, so;
> >  isn't the effect of the of your statement below that
> >  the gels-list is dead as of now? Especially since the
> >  on thing we are discussing at the moment is the charter
> >  update and this is on the ccamp list??
>=20
> Absolutely.
>=20
> I'll give you all a last chance to scream.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Adrian=20




Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:27:04 +0000
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:26:42 +0200
Message-ID: <8144761F31F48D43AD53D09F5350E380012B22ED@FRVELSMBS22.ad2.ad.alcatel.com>
Thread-Topic: Closing the GELS Mailing List
thread-index: AcfwaKdFjH0nMrF2Tw6ZFzl7WVA5awAJ0mGgAAB7qvA=
From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>
To: "Attila Takacs \(IJ/ETH\)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "gels" <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>

attila - yes. but CCAMP is only about "Control" -

-d.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 4:25 PM
> To: Adrian Farrel; ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> I support closing the gels list.=20
>=20
> Since decoupling the discussions into "techno-specific" and GMPLS
> specific part is very difficult, if at all possible, I do not=20
> see how to
> benefit from a separate forum for techno-specific aspects. IMHO, it
> would be much clearer having a single forum for all related=20
> discussions
> anyway.
>=20
> Best regards,
> Attila
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:27 AM
> > To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> > Cc: Ross Callon
> > Subject: Closing the GELS Mailing List
> >=20
> > We propose to close the GELS mailing list.
> >=20
> > Loa wrote...
> >=20
> > > I tend to support this, but it begs two questions:
> > >
> > > - when will the charter update be ack'ed?
> >=20
> > I don't know, and I can't promise that it will be ack'ed. but=20
> > the Routing ADs appear to support the change.
> >=20
> > > - in the (unlikely) case where we don't get an ack for =20
> > gels work the=20
> > > gels-list won't be needed anyhow, so;  isn't the effect of=20
> > the of your=20
> > > statement below that  the gels-list is dead as of now? Especially=20
> > > since the  on thing we are discussing at the moment is=20
> the charter =20
> > > update and this is on the ccamp list??
> >=20
> > Absolutely.
> >=20
> > I'll give you all a last chance to scream.
> >=20
> > Thanks,
> > Adrian=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
>=20
>=20



Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:25:20 +0000
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:24:45 +0200
Message-ID: <53CCFDD6E346CB43994852666C210E9102067D40@esealmw116.eemea.ericsson.se>
Thread-Topic: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Thread-Index: AcfwaKdFjH0nMrF2Tw6ZFzl7WVA5awAJ0mGg
From: "Attila Takacs (IJ/ETH)" <Attila.Takacs@ericsson.com>
To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "gels" <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>

Hi all,

I support closing the gels list.=20

Since decoupling the discussions into "techno-specific" and GMPLS
specific part is very difficult, if at all possible, I do not see how to
benefit from a separate forum for techno-specific aspects. IMHO, it
would be much clearer having a single forum for all related discussions
anyway.

Best regards,
Attila


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:27 AM
> To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> We propose to close the GELS mailing list.
>=20
> Loa wrote...
>=20
> > I tend to support this, but it begs two questions:
> >
> > - when will the charter update be ack'ed?
>=20
> I don't know, and I can't promise that it will be ack'ed. but=20
> the Routing ADs appear to support the change.
>=20
> > - in the (unlikely) case where we don't get an ack for =20
> gels work the=20
> > gels-list won't be needed anyhow, so;  isn't the effect of=20
> the of your=20
> > statement below that  the gels-list is dead as of now? Especially=20
> > since the  on thing we are discussing at the moment is the charter =20
> > update and this is on the ccamp list??
>=20
> Absolutely.
>=20
> I'll give you all a last chance to scream.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Adrian=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20



Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:03:03 +0000
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Subject: RE: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 15:59:47 +0200
Message-ID: <8144761F31F48D43AD53D09F5350E380012B228B@FRVELSMBS22.ad2.ad.alcatel.com>
Thread-Topic: Closing the GELS Mailing List
thread-index: AcfwaJE8wbS3itLlS+ScmNci3tMldgAD569Q
From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>
To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "gels" <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>

adrian,

you could leave the gels list for the list for the techno-specific
discussions and the ccamp list for the non-techno specific discussions

in any case, i believe the value of gels was so far to allow open
discussion on a topic that was on charter=20

-> question: does proposed incorporation in charter (with milestones to
be better shaped inline with progress of IEEE) elevate any other need ?
complete decoupling of discussion has been shown to be difficult to be
realized in the past

thanks,
-dimitri.


=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:27 AM
> To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org; gels
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: Closing the GELS Mailing List
>=20
> We propose to close the GELS mailing list.
>=20
> Loa wrote...
>=20
> > I tend to support this, but it begs two questions:
> >
> > - when will the charter update be ack'ed?
>=20
> I don't know, and I can't promise that it will be ack'ed. but=20
> the Routing ADs appear to support the change.
>=20
> > - in the (unlikely) case where we don't get an ack for
> >  gels work the gels-list won't be needed anyhow, so;
> >  isn't the effect of the of your statement below that
> >  the gels-list is dead as of now? Especially since the
> >  on thing we are discussing at the moment is the charter
> >  update and this is on the ccamp list??
>=20
> Absolutely.
>=20
> I'll give you all a last chance to scream.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Adrian=20



Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 09:30:15 +0000
Message-ID: <020501c7f068$270d0c20$0302a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, "gels" <gels@rtg.ietf.org>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>
Subject: Closing the GELS Mailing List
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:27:26 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

We propose to close the GELS mailing list.

Loa wrote...

> I tend to support this, but it begs two questions:
>
> - when will the charter update be ack'ed?

I don't know, and I can't promise that it will be ack'ed. but the Routing 
ADs appear to support the change.

> - in the (unlikely) case where we don't get an ack for
>  gels work the gels-list won't be needed anyhow, so;
>  isn't the effect of the of your statement below that
>  the gels-list is dead as of now? Especially since the
>  on thing we are discussing at the moment is the charter
>  update and this is on the ccamp list??

Absolutely.

I'll give you all a last chance to scream.

Thanks,
Adrian 





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:34:16 +0000
Message-ID: <46DECC02.4070502@kddilabs.jp>
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 00:32:18 +0900
From: Kenji Kumaki <ke-kumaki@kddilabs.jp>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: Working Group last calls completed : MPLS/GMPLS interworking and migration
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Adrian,

These I-Ds are ready to move forward as RFCs.
Of course,we welcome WG feedback and comments.

Regards,
Kenji

Adrian Farrel wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> These last calls completed while I was travelling. I have scanned the 
> mail list and I didn't see any comments. I also received no comments 
> privately.
> 
> Maybe the drafts are in perfect shape. Maybe no-one had time to read them.
> 
> Please can I get a feeling from the working group:
> 
> Are these I-Ds ready to move forward as RFCs?
> 
> "Framework for MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration"
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-03.txt 
> 
> 
> "Interworking Requirements to Support operation of MPLS-TE over GMPLS 
> Networks"
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-01.txt 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Adrian
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 7:41 PM
> Subject: Working Group last call on MPLS/GMPLS interworking and migration
> 
> 
>> Hi,
>> .
>> Two working group drafts have reached the position where the authors 
>> consider them ready for last call (actually, a whole bunch have 
>> arrived there at the same time, but we want to dribble them through 
>> the last call process).
>>
>> These two documents concern the operation of MPLS over GMPLS, and the 
>> migration from MPLS to GMPLS.
>>
>> The "Framework for MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration" is (the rather poorly 
>> named)
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-03.txt 
>>
>>
>> The "Interworking Requirements to Support operation of MPLS-TE over 
>> GMPLS Networks" are in
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-01.txt 
>>
>>
>> The documents are both Informational.
>>
>> Please send your comments (preferably to the list) by the end of WG 
>> last call which will be 12 noon GMT 24th August 2007.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Adrian
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:18:21 +0000
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Subject: RE: Plans for GELS work in CCAMP
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 14:16:52 +0200
Message-ID: <0428AC48A879ED46A94F39D5665DF684A57990@esealmw110.eemea.ericsson.se>
Thread-Topic: Plans for GELS work in CCAMP
Thread-Index: AcfvpXVNtKK3xihBQqWj+KXVTZuTDAADztvQ
From: "Diego Caviglia (GA/ERI)" <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>
To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>

Hi Adrian hi Deborah,
                     I think that this is a very good way to proceed I =
also think the people in the DT are the right ones.

I'd like to contribute this work so DT guys please fill free to contact =
me.

Best Regards

Diego
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On =
Behalf
> Of Adrian Farrel
> Sent: mercoled=EC 5 settembre 2007 11.51
> To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: Plans for GELS work in CCAMP
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> We owe you a plan for starting the GELS work in CCAMP.
>=20
> As you may have seen, we have just sent a request to the ADs to push
> through
> our recharter as discussed on the mailing list. The ADs have already
> indicated their support, so hopefully this will be fairly smooth.
>=20
> We have also been talking with Don and Loa about starting work on the =
GELS
> drafts that we will accept into the working group as a starting point.
> (Other drafts can be added as needed.)
>=20
> 1. "GMPLS Extensions for PE to PE Ethernet Label Switched Paths(LSPs)"
> This document is the generic work:
> - Introduction
> - Rationale for GMPLS Control of Ethernet
> - Generic functional requirements (no data plane specifics!)
> - Applicability of existing protocol elements
> - New generic protocol elements (nothing specific to the data plane)
>=20
> 2. "GMPLS control of P2P TE for PBB-TE (802.1Qay)"
> Mainly references to the generic document.
> Some protocol specifics:
> - Code points (i.e. IANA section)
> - Label allocation and swapping rules
> Not a large document.
>=20
> Other drafts that we might also see:
>=20
> 3. "GMPLS control of P2P TE for IEEE802.1Q"
> Another data plane-specific draft, like 2, but for a different data =
plane
>=20
> 4. Applicability Statement
> A concise description of how and why to apply GMPLS to Ethernet.
> Probably not written until after the protocol work is done.
>=20
> We propose a relatively small design team to get this work started.
>    Loa Andersson
>    Lou Berger
>    Don Fedyk
>    George Swallow
>=20
> We are NOT trying to exclude anyone from the work, and we make a =
couple of
> observations:
>=20
> - A design team is just a group of people working on a
>   draft.
> - Anyone and everyone is welcome to write a draft.
> - We feel that an initial design should be small to make
>    rapid initial progress.
> - We welcome (and expect!) full and detailed contribution
>    on the mailing list as this work progresses.
> - Everyone who contributes to a draft should be appropriately
>    recognised in the draft.
>=20
> Last point:
> I propose to close the GELS mailing list now.
>=20
> Hope this is all satisfactory to you.
>=20
> Regards,
> Adrian and Deborah
>=20
>=20




Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:13:09 +0000
Message-ID: <010a01c7efa2$57cd20f0$0302a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>
Subject: Plans for GELS work in CCAMP
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:51:19 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,

We owe you a plan for starting the GELS work in CCAMP.

As you may have seen, we have just sent a request to the ADs to push through
our recharter as discussed on the mailing list. The ADs have already
indicated their support, so hopefully this will be fairly smooth.

We have also been talking with Don and Loa about starting work on the GELS
drafts that we will accept into the working group as a starting point.
(Other drafts can be added as needed.)

1. "GMPLS Extensions for PE to PE Ethernet Label Switched Paths(LSPs)"
This document is the generic work:
- Introduction
- Rationale for GMPLS Control of Ethernet
- Generic functional requirements (no data plane specifics!)
- Applicability of existing protocol elements
- New generic protocol elements (nothing specific to the data plane)

2. "GMPLS control of P2P TE for PBB-TE (802.1Qay)"
Mainly references to the generic document.
Some protocol specifics:
- Code points (i.e. IANA section)
- Label allocation and swapping rules
Not a large document.

Other drafts that we might also see:

3. "GMPLS control of P2P TE for IEEE802.1Q"
Another data plane-specific draft, like 2, but for a different data plane

4. Applicability Statement
A concise description of how and why to apply GMPLS to Ethernet.
Probably not written until after the protocol work is done.

We propose a relatively small design team to get this work started.
   Loa Andersson
   Lou Berger
   Don Fedyk
   George Swallow

We are NOT trying to exclude anyone from the work, and we make a couple of
observations:

- A design team is just a group of people working on a
  draft.
- Anyone and everyone is welcome to write a draft.
- We feel that an initial design should be small to make
   rapid initial progress.
- We welcome (and expect!) full and detailed contribution
   on the mailing list as this work progresses.
- Everyone who contributes to a draft should be appropriately
   recognised in the draft.

Last point:
I propose to close the GELS mailing list now.

Hope this is all satisfactory to you.

Regards,
Adrian and Deborah 





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:13:02 +0000
Message-ID: <00e301c7ef9c$7b64f8e0$0302a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>, <dward@cisco.com>
Cc: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: CCAMP Proposed Recharter
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:09:27 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Ross and Dave,

Please propose the attached recharter to the IESG for approval. Can 
you get it onto the agenda for this Thursday? Probably missed it :-(


Thanks,
Adrian and Deborah

===

First paragraph

OLD
The CCAMP working group coordinates the work within the IETF defining
a common control plane and a separate common measurement plane for
physical path and core tunneling technologies of Internet and telecom
service providers (ISPs and SPs), e.g. O-O and O-E-O optical switches,
ATM and Frame Relay switches, MPLS, GRE, in cooperation with the MPLS
WG.

NEW
The CCAMP working group coordinates the work within the IETF defining
a common control plane and a separate common measurement plane for
physical path and core tunneling technologies of Internet and telecom
service providers (ISPs and SPs), e.g. O-O and O-E-O optical switches,
TDM switches, Ethernet switches, ATM and Frame Relay switches, IP 
encapsulation tunneling technologies, and MPLS in cooperation with the
MPLS WG.

===

New paragraph in the list of Scope bullets.
Suggest to place it after:
"- Definition of MIB modules and other OAM techniques relevant to the
   protocols and extensions specified within the WG."
and before:
"CCAMP WG currently works on the following tasks:"

- Work on traffic-engineering GMPLS mechanisms and protocol
  extensions to support source-controlled and explicitly-routed
  Ethernet data paths for Ethernet data planes that are already
  approved by an SDO with responsibility for the Ethernet data
  plane. It is expected that the primary SDO in this case is the
  IEEE. Note that the specification or modification of Ethernet data
  planes is out of scope.


===

Final paragraph

OLD
In doing this work, the WG will work closely with at least the
following other WGs: MPLS, ISIS, OSPF, IDR, L1VPN and PCE. The WG
will also cooperate with the ITU-T.

NEW
In doing this work, the WG will work closely with at least the
following other WGs: MPLS, ISIS, OSPF, IDR, L1VPN, and PCE. The
WG will also cooperate with the ITU-T and the IEEE 802.1.

===

Milestone revisions (see below for full revised milestone list)

OLD
  Jan 2006    First version WG I-D for Protocol solutions for MLN/MRN
NEW
  Sep 2007    First version WG I-D for Protocol solutions for MLN/MRN
---
OLD
  Mar 2006    First version WG I-D GMPLS OAM Requirements
NEW
  Sep 2007    First version WG I-D GMPLS OAM Requirements
---
OLD
  Apr 2006    First version of WG I-D for additional MIB module to
              cover RSVP-TE signaling extensions
NEW
  Nov 2007    First version of WG I-D for additional MIB module to
              cover RSVP-TE signaling extensions
---
OLD
  Jun 2006    Submit Informational I-D for Analysis of inter-domain
              issues for disjoint and protected paths for IESG review
NEW
  Oct 2007    Submit Informational I-D for Analysis of inter-domain
              issues for disjoint and protected paths for IESG review
---
OLD
  Oct 2006    Submit MPLS to GMPLS migration strategies I-D for IESG
              review
NEW
  Sep 2007    Submit MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration strategies I-D for
              IESG review
---
OLD
  Nov 2006    Submit ASON Routing solutions I-D for IESG review
NEW
  Jan 2008    Submit ASON Routing solutions I-D for IESG review
---
OLD
  Dec 2006    Submit Requirements for Multi-Layer and Multi-Region
              Networks I-D for IESG review
NEW
  Oct 2007    Submit Requirements for Multi-Layer and Multi-Region
              Networks I-D for IESG review
---
OLD
  Jan 2007    Submit MPLS-GMPLS interworking requirements and
              solutions I-D for IESG review
NEW
  Sep 2007    Submit MPLS-TE/GMPLS interworking requirements I-D for
              IESG review
---
OLD
  Feb 2007    Submit Evaluation of existing protocols for MLN/MRN for
              IESG review
NEW
  Oct 2007    Submit Evaluation of existing protocols for MLN/MRN for
              IESG review
---
OLD
  Mar 2007    Submit OSPF-TE/GMPLS MIB module for MIB doctor and IESG
              review
NEW
  Dec 2007    Submit OSPF-TE/GMPLS MIB module for MIB doctor and IESG
              review
---
OLD
  Jun 2007    Submit GMPLS OAM Requirements I-D for IESG review
NEW
  Feb 2008    Submit GMPLS OAM Requirements I-D for IESG review
---
OLD
  Aug 2007    Submit Protocol solutions for MLN/MRN I-D for IESG
              review
NEW
  Mar 2008    Submit Protocol solutions for MLN/MRN I-D for IESG
              review
---
OLD
  Dec 2007    Submit MIB module for RSVP-TE signaling extensions for
              MIB doctor and IESG review
NEW
  Apr 2008    Submit MIB module for RSVP-TE signaling extensions for
              MIB doctor and IESG review
---
OLD
  Dec 2007    Recharter or close Working Group
NEW
  Dec 2008    Recharter or close Working Group
---
NEW
  Oct 2007    First version WG I-Ds for GMPLS source-controlled and
              explicitly-routed Ethernet networks
---
NEW
  Sep 2008    Submit protocol extensions for GMPLS source-controlled
              and explicitly-routed Ethernet networks for IESG review

====

Goals and Milestones (full revised milestone list)

Done    Post strawman WG goals and charter
Done    Identify and document a limited set of candidate solutions
        for signalling and for measurement. Among candidate control
        solutions to be considered are the existing GMPLS drafts.
Done    Build appropriate design teams
Done    Submit WG document defining path setup portions of common
        control plane protocol
Done    Submit WG document defining common measurement plane protocol
Done    Submit LMP MIB to IESG
Done    Submit protection & restoration documents to IESG
Done    Submit ASON signaling requirements doc to IESG
Done    Submit GMPLS MIBs to IESG
Done    Produce CCAMP WG document for generic tunnel tracing protocol
Done    Produce CCAMP WG document for multi-area/AS signaling and
        routing
Done    Submit ASON routing requirements doc to IESG
Done    Submit revised charter and milestones to IESG for IESG
        consideration of more detailed deliverables and determination
        of usefulness of continuation of WG
Done    First version WG I-D for Advertising TE Node Capabilities in
        ISIS and OSPF
Done    First version WG I-D for Automatic discovery of MPLS-TE mesh
        membership
Done    Submit ASON Routing evaluation I-D for IESG review
Done    Cross-WG review of I-D for Advertising TE Node Capabilities in
        ISIS and OSPF
Done    First version WG I-D MPLS to GMPLS migration strategies
Done    First version WG I-D Requirements for Multi-Layer and Multi-
        Region Networks
Done    First version WG I-D for Evaluation of existing protocols for
        MLN/MRN
Done    First version of WG I-D for ASON Routing solutions
Done    Submit RSVP-TE extensions for inter-domain signaling I-D for
        IESG review
Done    Submit Per-domain path computation signaling I-D for IESG
        review
Done    First version of WG I-D for OSPF-TE/GMPLS MIB module
Done    Submit GMPLS signaling in support of Call Management I-D for
        IESG review
Done    First version WG Informational I-D for Analysis of inter-
        domain issues for disjoint and protected paths
Done    Submit I-D for Advertising TE Node Capabilities in ISIS and
        OSPF for IESG review
Done    Submit GMPLS/ASON lexicography I-D for IESG review
Done    First version WG I-D MPLS-GMPLS interworking requirements and
        solutions
Done    Submit LSP Stitching I-D for IESG review
Done    Submit I-D for Automatic discovery of MPLS-TE mesh membership
        for IESG review
Done    Submit GMPLS routing and signaling interoperability advice I-D
        for IESG review
Sep 2007    First version WG I-D for Protocol solutions for MLN/MRN
Sep 2007    First version WG I-D GMPLS OAM Requirements
Sep 2007    Submit MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration strategies I-D for IESG
            review
Sep 2007    Submit MPLS-TE/GMPLS interworking requirements I-D for
            IESG review
Oct 2007    First version WG I-Ds for GMPLS source-controlled and
            explicitly-routed Ethernet networks
Oct 2007    Submit Informational I-D for Analysis of inter-domain
            issues for disjoint and protected paths for IESG review
Oct 2007    Submit Requirements for Multi-Layer and Multi-Region
            Networks I-D for IESG review
Oct 2007    Submit Evaluation of existing protocols for MLN/MRN for
            IESG review
Nov 2007    First version of WG I-D for additional MIB module to
            cover RSVP-TE signaling extensions
Dec 2007    Submit OSPF-TE/GMPLS MIB module for MIB doctor and IESG
            review
Jan 2008    Submit ASON Routing solutions I-D for IESG review
Feb 2008    Submit GMPLS OAM Requirements I-D for IESG review
Mar 2008    Submit Protocol solutions for MLN/MRN I-D for IESG review
Apr 2008    Submit MIB module for RSVP-TE signaling extensions for
            MIB doctor and IESG review
Sep 2008    Submit protocol extensions for GMPLS source-controlled
            and explicitly-routed Ethernet networks for IESG review
Dec 2008    Recharter or close Working Group

====





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:49:46 +0000
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 11:47:00 -0500
From: Young Lee <ylee@huawei.com>
Subject: RE: Working Group last calls completed : MPLS/GMPLS interworking and migration
To: 'Adrian Farrel' <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Message-id: <000c01c7ef13$3702dca0$6f0c7c0a@china.huawei.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Thread-index: AcfrNydkCls/SZk6RZmO5y0w5nzorAD0ZdAA

I support both I-Ds to move forward as RFCs. 

Both I-D clearly state the scope of the document and comprehensively address
respective architectural framework and requirement. 

Young 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf
Of Adrian Farrel
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 1:51 PM
To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Working Group last calls completed : MPLS/GMPLS interworking and
migration

Hi,

These last calls completed while I was travelling. I have scanned the mail 
list and I didn't see any comments. I also received no comments privately.

Maybe the drafts are in perfect shape. Maybe no-one had time to read them.

Please can I get a feeling from the working group:

Are these I-Ds ready to move forward as RFCs?

"Framework for MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration"
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fm
wk-03.txt

"Interworking Requirements to Support operation of MPLS-TE over GMPLS 
Networks"
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-re
qts-01.txt

Thanks,
Adrian

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 7:41 PM
Subject: Working Group last call on MPLS/GMPLS interworking and migration


> Hi,
> .
> Two working group drafts have reached the position where the authors 
> consider them ready for last call (actually, a whole bunch have arrived 
> there at the same time, but we want to dribble them through the last call 
> process).
>
> These two documents concern the operation of MPLS over GMPLS, and the 
> migration from MPLS to GMPLS.
>
> The "Framework for MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration" is (the rather poorly 
> named)
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fm
wk-03.txt
>
> The "Interworking Requirements to Support operation of MPLS-TE over GMPLS 
> Networks" are in
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-re
qts-01.txt
>
> The documents are both Informational.
>
> Please send your comments (preferably to the list) by the end of WG last 
> call which will be 12 noon GMT 24th August 2007.
>
> Thanks,
> Adrian
>
>
> 








Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:08:06 +0000
Message-ID: <46DD56D2.2030506@lab.ntt.co.jp>
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:00:02 +0900
From: Kohei Shiomoto <shiomoto.kohei@lab.ntt.co.jp>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
CC: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: Working Group last calls completed : MPLS/GMPLS interworking and migration
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Adrian

I think that these drafts are ready to move forward. I am happy to hear 
any feedback from the ccamp community.

Best regards,
Kohei

> Hi,
> 
> These last calls completed while I was travelling. I have scanned the 
> mail list and I didn't see any comments. I also received no comments 
> privately.
> 
> Maybe the drafts are in perfect shape. Maybe no-one had time to read them.
> 
> Please can I get a feeling from the working group:
> 
> Are these I-Ds ready to move forward as RFCs?
> 
> "Framework for MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration"
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-03.txt 
> 
> 
> "Interworking Requirements to Support operation of MPLS-TE over GMPLS 
> Networks"
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-01.txt 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Adrian
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 7:41 PM
> Subject: Working Group last call on MPLS/GMPLS interworking and migration
> 
> 
>> Hi,
>> .
>> Two working group drafts have reached the position where the authors 
>> consider them ready for last call (actually, a whole bunch have 
>> arrived there at the same time, but we want to dribble them through 
>> the last call process).
>>
>> These two documents concern the operation of MPLS over GMPLS, and the 
>> migration from MPLS to GMPLS.
>>
>> The "Framework for MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration" is (the rather poorly 
>> named)
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-03.txt 
>>
>>
>> The "Interworking Requirements to Support operation of MPLS-TE over 
>> GMPLS Networks" are in
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-01.txt 
>>
>>
>> The documents are both Informational.
>>
>> Please send your comments (preferably to the list) by the end of WG 
>> last call which will be 12 noon GMT 24th August 2007.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Adrian
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Kohei Shiomoto
NTT Network Service Systems Laboratories
3-9-11 Midori, Musashino, Tokyo 180-8585, Japan
Phone +81 422 59 4402    Fax +81 422 59 3787





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:19:01 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: Greg Jones <greg.jones@itu.int>
Cc: Kam Lam <hklam@alcatel-lucent.com>, Stephen Trowbridge <sjtrowbridge@alcatel-lucent.com>, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>, David Ward <dward@cisco.com>, Scott Bradner <sob@hardward.edu>, CCAMP Mailing List <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com>
From: Adrian Farrel (IETF CCAMP WG) <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Subject: New Liaison Statement, "GMPLS Signaling for VCAT/LCAS" 
Reply-To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Message-Id: <E1ISUVw-00031a-Ef@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 05:16:04 -0400

Title: GMPLS Signaling for VCAT/LCAS
Submission Date: 2007-09-04
URL of the IETF Web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=365 
Please reply by 2007-11-15

From: Adrian Farrel(IETF CCAMP WG) <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: ITU-T Q14/15(Greg Jones <greg.jones@itu.int>)
Cc: Kam Lam <hklam@alcatel-lucent.com>
Stephen Trowbridge <sjtrowbridge@alcatel-lucent.com>
Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
David Ward <dward@cisco.com>
Scott Bradner <sob@hardward.edu>
CCAMP Mailing List <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Reponse Contact: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com>
Technical Contact: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com>
Purpose: For action 
Body: The CCAMP Working Group thanks you for your liaison of
April this year (COM15-LS3-E) and for your interest in our
work to develop GMPLS signaling extensions for the control
of VCAT within TDM networks.

The latest version of this work can be found at
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-02.txt
We expect a revision relatively soon, so if the referenced
link fails, please also check at
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-03.txt

Here are our responses to the questions in your liaison.

1. Would CCAMP consider generalizing the draft so that it
   could be applied to any Inverse Multiplexing scheme? For
   example, if generalized, the method could be used to
   establish H.244, ML-PPP, ATM inverse mux, or BONDING
   connections.

It is certainly our intention that any protocol extensions
that we develop should be easily extensible to other
technologies. But at the same time we have seen no
immediate interest from the community in applying GMPLS as
a control plane for any of the technologies that you list.
It would, of course, be a prerequisite of using GMPLS for
such an inverse multiplexing scheme, that GMPLS was also
used to build network connections (i.e. LSPs) for the
specific technology.

If you have a requirement to use GMPLS to control these
technologies, we would be interested to hear from you. In
the mean time, we note that the inverse multiplexing
schemes that you list are packet/cell forms rather than
circuit forms of inverse multiplexing and hence may have
different configuration parameters than VCAT.


2. Does the I-D describe VCAT call signalling?

The I-D uses GMPLS Calls (RFC 4974) to achieve VCAT group
signaling. The GMPLS Call is used to coordinate the setup
of multiple server connections (LSPs) used to form a VCAT
group (a connection in the VCAT layer).


3. Does the I-D allow LSPs in a server layer to be set up
   without any prior knowledge of a possible VCAT layer,
   and then at a later point in time allow those LSPs to
   become available to a VCAT layer?

When a network connection is established at the request of
an operator or a management system, we have assumed that
there is some motivation, and that the motivation is
expressed in the call that coordinates the connection. In
RFC 4974, the nature of the call can be changed (as a
matter of call parameter exchange that is within the scope
of the call controller function, but the details of which,
except for the message exchange rules, are outside the
scope of the signaling protocol), but the connections
cannot be moved from one call to another.

Thus, LSPs that are set up in association with a specific
call can only be used as directed by the call controller
with responsibility for that call. If a call controller
decides to use the connections (LSPs) for VCAT one day and
for something else another day, that is entirely within its
remit. However, this assumes that the call controller can
suitably instruct and coordinate the necessary adaptation
functions at each end of the network connections. An
implementation might find it more convenient to release the
call (and the associated connections), before setting up a
new call and a new set of connections.

Note that we are considering mechanisms to allow LSPs to be
moved between VCAT Groups according to the requirements of
the network. Such schemes necessarily mean that there is
not always a 1:1 relationship between calls and VCAT groups
since it remains the case that connections cannot be moved 
between calls. However, our understanding of G.707 and the 
ability to move component trails (VCAT group members) 
between VCAT groups while the trail is in service is 
unclear, and we would welcome clarification of the 
requirements before progressing this function further.


4. Does the I-D allow the association of a VCAT call to
   multiple server layer calls?

This is not specifically addressed. There is no hierarchy
of calls described in the draft. Instead, the draft
provides for a single call that is used to coordinate all
of the server layer connections that support the single
VCAT service. In practice, this may not represent
architectural purity, but we believe it is a protocol
implementation simplification consistent with the way that
VCAT is operated.

We note that VCAT groups can only consist of a single
server connection type and cannot be mixed, e.g., VC-3 and
VC-4 components cannot both be in the same VCG.


5. Does release of a VCAT call automatically imply release
  of the server layer call(s)? This is not required by
  G.8080 as layers are assumed to be independent.

As noted for point 4, the VCAT layer call is not
specifically called out in the draft. You may consider that
the draft provides a mechanism for handling the (single
hop) VCAT call and the server layer call as a single item.
We would be interested to hear from you the operational
circumstances under which a single VCAT layer call might
give rise to multiple server layer calls.

The signaling of the release of a GMPLS Call is rejected if
connections are still in place (per RFC 4974 section 6.6.4)
which is consistent with the connections having been set up
under the instructions of the call controller and in
support of the call. Thus, operationally, the release of a
call will require the release of the associated
connections.

At this point it may be worth clarifying that a VCAT layer
connection is created under the control of a VCAT layer
call. The VCAT connection may require server layer
connections (indeed, this is always the case with VCAT) and
those connections need to be associated and controlled by a
call. it is this second type of call that we are we are
describing in this draft.

Thus, the release of a VCAT call would lead to the release
of the VCAT connection. The network policy may determine
whether to release the server layer call or not. If the
server layer call is released, the server layer connections
will also be released.


6. Is VCAT layer addressing assumed to be the same as that
  of the server layer?

GMPLS only supports IP addressing. The link connections in
the VCAT layer created by/from network connections in the
server layer may be given different addresses from the
addresses used to represent the endpoints in the server
layer, or may use the same addresses.


7. Are the two VCAT layer Call Controllers assumed to have
  direct signalling connectivity?

Yes, adjacent call controllers in any layer are assumed to
be able to exchange call control messages without the
intervention of any proxy, agent, or extra-layer entity.


8. If multiple client layers are using the same VCAT layer
  as their server layer, how can the VCAT layer call be
  identified for use in the client layer signalling?

How is this problem any different from any other n:1
client/server relationship? Please supply details of why
the fact that the server layer is a VCAT layer should make
this scenario any different.

Please also note that, as for point 5 above, the VCAT layer
call is not what is being addressed in this draft. We are
addressing the server layer call that coordinates the
server layer network connections that are used as VCAT
group members to construct a VCAT group that can be
presented as a link connection in the VCAT layer.


9. Have you considered using the ASON call id [RFC3474] at
  all layers to achieve separate call control of the VCAT
  and server layers?

The format of the call ID is deliberately out of scope for
this work as we would not wish to control or enforce the
applicability of this work in any one environment. However,
RFC 4974 (as noted in a recent separate liaison from us on
GMPLS Calls) allows any format call ID to be encoded in
GMPLS calls. Thus, the ASON call id format described
informationally in RFC 3474 can be supported and used in an
ASON environment at the choice of the operator and/or the
implementer of the call controller.

Can you please confirm that the normative definition of the
ASON call ID is in G.7713.2? Other Recommendations (such as
G.7713.3) also appear to have call IDs defined, and we want
to make sure that we can reference a single, protocol-
independent definition of a call ID


10. In the ASON architecture [G.8080], it is not assumed
   that a single signalling protocol is used in all
   domains. Even in the case the same protocol is used in
   all domains, the RSVP session changes between domains.
   Could you explain how the Notify mechanism used for
   call control would work across multiple domains where
   the RSVP session changes?

This question clearly has wider relevance than this VCAT
draft and should be seen in the context of RFC 4974, and
not in reference to this draft.

We note that G.8080 makes no assumptions about connection
signaling protocols in adjacent domains, but we believe
that the architecture does assume an E-NNI reference point
in association with one or more call controllers at such
domain interfaces. The E-NNI call controllers are
responsible for requesting the necessary network
connections in each domain and, where the E-NNI is
externalised, for requesting any inter-domain connections.

Call messages are exchanged between adjacent call
controllers and relate to the network connections
established at the request of those call controllers. When
two adjacent GMPLS domains support the same end-to-end
network connection, we do not recommend that the session
object be changed.

Please clarify where in G.8080 there is any reference to
RSVP sessions. There should be no such discussion of
protocol implementations in an architecture document.


We would welcome your opinions on these responses and the
direction of our work.

In your liaison you stated that you had the intention to
review the draft further at your June meeting. But in the
liaison from your June meeting (COM15-LS170-E) you say that
you deferred this review pending further revisions of the
I-D. This is quite reasonable, but we would nevertheless
welcome any further high-level comments that you may have.
We will notify you as this draft is updated.

Best regards,
Adrian Farrel and Deborah Brungard
IETF CCAMP Working Group Co-Chairs
Attachment(s):
No document has been attached





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 13:14:18 +0000
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Subject: RE: Working Group last calls completed : MPLS/GMPLS interworking and migration
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 15:11:48 +0200
Message-ID: <8144761F31F48D43AD53D09F5350E38001243721@FRVELSMBS22.ad2.ad.alcatel.com>
Thread-Topic: Working Group last calls completed : MPLS/GMPLS interworking and migration
thread-index: AcfrNwbW+RuJdgfvSvySymX9WcRCTQC8s07g
From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.be>
To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>

hi adrian

it would be surprising these documents have reached perfection (or a
close to), i would suggest to ask for a review by e.g. gen-art like you
did for the inter-domain documents

now, it is clear that by addressing a topic that involves operational
aspects (not only protocol engineering specific) we would welcome any
feedback along these lines

thanks,
-d.  =20


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 8:51 PM
> To: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: Working Group last calls completed : MPLS/GMPLS=20
> interworking and migration
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> These last calls completed while I was travelling. I have=20
> scanned the mail=20
> list and I didn't see any comments. I also received no=20
> comments privately.
>=20
> Maybe the drafts are in perfect shape. Maybe no-one had time=20
> to read them.
>=20
> Please can I get a feeling from the working group:
>=20
> Are these I-Ds ready to move forward as RFCs?
>=20
> "Framework for MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration"
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpl
s-interwork-fmwk-03.txt
>=20
> "Interworking Requirements to Support operation of MPLS-TE over GMPLS=20
> Networks"
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpl
s-interwork-reqts-01.txt
>=20
> Thanks,
> Adrian
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
> To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 7:41 PM
> Subject: Working Group last call on MPLS/GMPLS interworking=20
> and migration
>=20
>=20
> > Hi,
> > .
> > Two working group drafts have reached the position where=20
> the authors=20
> > consider them ready for last call (actually, a whole bunch=20
> have arrived=20
> > there at the same time, but we want to dribble them through=20
> the last call=20
> > process).
> >
> > These two documents concern the operation of MPLS over=20
> GMPLS, and the=20
> > migration from MPLS to GMPLS.
> >
> > The "Framework for MPLS-TE to GMPLS migration" is (the=20
> rather poorly=20
> > named)
> >=20
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpl
s-interwork-fmwk-03.txt
> >
> > The "Interworking Requirements to Support operation of=20
> MPLS-TE over GMPLS=20
> > Networks" are in
> >=20
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpl
s-interwork-reqts-01.txt
> >
> > The documents are both Informational.
> >
> > Please send your comments (preferably to the list) by the=20
> end of WG last=20
> > call which will be 12 noon GMT 24th August 2007.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Adrian
> >
> >
> >=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20



Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 08:36:01 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: Greg Jones <greg.jones@itu.int>
Cc: Kam Lam <hklam@alcatel-lucent.com>, Stephen Trowbridge <sjtrowbridge@alcatel-lucent.com>, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>, David Ward <dward@cisco.com>, Scott Bradner <sob@hardward.edu>, CCAMP Mailing List <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com>
From: Adrian Farrel (IETF CCAMP WG) <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Subject: New Liaison Statement, "ASON Routing Loop Prevention Mechanism" 
Reply-To: Adrian Farrel <addrian@olddog.co.uk>
Message-Id: <E1IS7MG-0004I8-Hw@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 04:32:32 -0400

Title: ASON Routing Loop Prevention Mechanism
Submission Date: 2007-09-03
URL of the IETF Web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=364 

From: Adrian Farrel(IETF CCAMP WG) <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: ITU-T Q14/15(Greg Jones <greg.jones@itu.int>)
Cc: Kam Lam <hklam@alcatel-lucent.com>
Stephen Trowbridge <sjtrowbridge@alcatel-lucent.com>
Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
David Ward <dward@cisco.com>
Scott Bradner <sob@hardward.edu>
CCAMP Mailing List <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Reponse Contact: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com>
Technical Contact: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com>
Purpose: In response 
Body: The IETF CCAMP working group thanks you for your continued
interest in the loop-prevention mechanism contained in our
OSPF-based solution to the routing requirements as
described in RFC 4258.

This liaison is in response to your liaison COM15-169-E
issued from your June plenary. A separate liaison will
report on the status and progress of our OSPF ASON
solution.

We disagree with your statement that the rationale we
explained "does not utilize the hierarchical nature defined
by ASON." Quite to the contrary, the solution addresses the
issues introduced by the hierarchical routing nature of
ASON while utilizing the benefits. At the same time, since
the protocol mechanisms are extensions to OSPF, it is only
natural that "the rationale provided takes into account the
considerations of how OSPF traditionally operates."

You are right to observe that other mechanisms could have
been selected, and would also have been functional. This is
often the case in protocol design. However, a choice has to
be made, and unless there are technical reasons to suggest
that the choice is wrong, there seems to be no particular
motivation to make a change.

You say:
  While we recognise it is possible to identify the
  propagation direction based on the Area ID of the source,
  it does require that all redistribution mechanisms in the
  network understand the relative location of source areas
  given the area hierarchy (i.e. are they up or down the
  hierarchy from the evaluation point).  We cannot identify
  in the existing proposal any mechanism (i.e. new LSA
  format) defined to provide this information.
We note that the requirement is not to know the direction
of propagation of information, but to detect routing 
advertisement loops. According to the strict hierarchical
nature of ASON (as you describe in your liaison) the use
of Area IDs is sufficient to detect advertisement loops.

There is no definition of any new mechanism or LSA in this
Internet-Draft: the use of a new LSA or changes to the
processing rules for existing LSAs would inhibit the
integration of ASON routing developments within the
IETF routing family and, while this may not be an
objective of the ASON architecture, it is an objective of
the IETF.

You suggest that the use of Area ID in the LSAs will
inhibit re-configuration of AREA IDs. We do not believe
that this is the case, and we will add text to the draft to
describe the necessary processing for this important, but
uncommon case.

Please note that the scope of this work (including the
loop-prevention mechanisms) is limited by the requirements
expressed in RFC 4258. A separate liaison to you has
requested a further review of RFC 4258. In the event that
substantive modifications to the requirements are made as a
result of your review, it will be necessary to consider
updating the solutions work. Such a process of publication
and revision is similar to the procedure applied within the
ITU.

Note also that the scope of this work (that is, of this
current Internet-Draft) is extensions to the OSPFv2
protocol. The CCAMP working group would welcome
contributions in the form of Internet-Drafts from anyone
who is interested in addressing the same problem space
through the IS-IS protocol.

Thank you for your continued support of this work.

Regards,
Deborah Brungard and Adrian Farrel
IETF CCAMP Working Group Co-Chairs
Attachment(s):
No document has been attached





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 21:34:23 +0000
Message-ID: <05d001c7ecdf$cd82ec00$0300a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Communication from OIF on MEF UNI
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 22:32:39 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,

We have received a very constructive communication from the OIF wrt our work 
on the MEF UNI. You can see it at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm

Can I encourage the authors of the various MEF-related I-Ds to follow up on 
the actions agreed in Chicago.

Cheers,
Adrian

===

Mr. Adrian Farrel, IETF CCAMP Co-Chair,
    adrian.farrel@aria-networks.com
Ms. Deborah Brungard, IETF CCAMP Co-Chair,
    dbrungard@att.com
Cc: Mr. Ross Callon, IETF Routing Area Director,
    rcallon@juniper.net
Mr. David Ward, IETF Routing Area Director,
    dward@cisco.com
Mr. Lyndon Ong, Ciena Corporation,
    lyong@ciena.com

From: Mr. Jim Jones, OIF TC Chair

Subject: Liaison to IETF CCAMP WG on MEF services support

Dear Adrian and Deborah,

The OIF has been engaged in discussion with the MEF since
April 2005 regarding MEF UNI service definitions and how
these might be supported over a UNI control plane
interface. During this discussion a number of mutual
conclusions have been reached on the requirements for
signaling MEF UNI parameters using the control plane, and
the relationship of control plane and management plane
interfaces at the MEF UNI.

Some of the control plane protocol issues that were
identified have been socialized with IETF CCAMP WG through
liaisons and informal communications between participants
in OIF and CCAMP, and have resulted in work discussed in
CCAMP. OIF plans to make use of this work in its future
documents; in particular, the MEF Ethernet Traffic
Parameters and EVPL label formats and switching type
(provided in draft-ietf-ccamp-ethernet-traffic-parameters-
02.txt and draft-berger-ccamp-gmpls-mef-uni-00.txt,
respectively). While we recognize that the second draft
identified has not yet been formally adopted as a Working
Group draft, definition of the EVPL label formats and
switching type defined in the draft meet needs that we have
identified for support of MEF services in the control
plane.

We appreciate CCAMP's efforts in this area and hope to
continue productive interaction in the future.

Thank you.

Sincerely yours,
Jim Jones
OIF Technical Committee Chair 





Envelope-to: ccamp-data@psg.com
Delivery-date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 21:34:05 +0000
Message-ID: <05cf01c7ecdf$5cb5a9e0$0300a8c0@your029b8cecfe>
Reply-To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Fw: liaison response to to IETF ccamp WG  on MFA Forum MPLS CNI
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 22:22:17 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,

We have received the attached liaison from the MFA.
I expect it will be posted on the IETF web site in due course. In the mean 
time, you can find it at www.olddog.co.uk/ccamp.htm

The liaison does not ask for any action from us, but we may want to review 
the new specification and comment on it.

Thanks,
Adrian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "J. Rao Cherukuri" <cherukuri@juniper.net>
To: <IAB@ietf.org>; <statements@ietf.org>; <adrian@olddog.co.uk>; 
<dbrungard@att.com>
Cc: "David Sinicrope (RL/TNT)" <david.sinicrope@ericsson.com>; 
<andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>; "BOCCI Matthew" 
<Matthew.Bocci@alcatel-lucent.co.uk>; "Ross Callon" <rcallon@juniper.net>; 
<dward@cisco.com>; <rao.cherukuri@juniper.net>
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 8:34 PM
Subject: liaison response to to IETF ccamp WG on MFA Forum MPLS CNI


Hi Adrian, Deborah,

Thank you and the CCAMP WG for providing such thorough and valuable
comments.  We have reviewed and incorporated many of them into the CNI
document.  There are a few that we have not incorporated for various
reasons.  We have provided the rationale for these decisions inline
below.

Please let us know if you have any questions or concerns.

Best Regards,
David  Sinicrope  AD Working Group Chair

Rao Cherukuri TC Chair

***************************************

We note that you have opted to define a new RSVP object to support a
multi-class LSP following the rules for vendor private assignment as
described in section 2.2 of RFC3936. We believe that you may have
misinterpreted the purpose of vendor private extensions since such
extensions are specifically not intended to interoperate, but you are
attempting to define a specification directly for the purpose of
interworking devices from different vendors. In your case it would seem
to make more sense to define a standardized extension to the protocol.

MFAF> At the time of development of our specification draft-andersson
was not adopted by IETF.  Also, the Multi Class specification wasn't in
a state where we could refer to it.  Consequently, we chose to use the
vendor private TLV to expedite completion of our document.   In
subsequent revisions of the CNI we will consider following
draft-andersson and obtaining a standard Multi Class TLV.

Should you decide that a standardized extension is better able to
deliver the functionality that you require, we should like to draw your
attention to draft-andersson-rtg-gmpls-change-06.txt that defines how
other SDOs may influence the development of MPLS and GMPLS protocols
within the IETF, and which is currently in IETF last call. The (G)MPLS
suites of protocols have become popular among multiple SDOs resulting in
a need for IETF to clarify its role as the responsible SDO for (G)MPLS
protocol extensions so as to prevent unnecessary replication of
functionality and the resulting interoperability problems.

1. The document is marked as Straw Ballot Text. Can you tell us
   what that means the status of the work is?
MFAF> Review is completed and document is in "last call".

2. We think that your use of terminology may be a little loose.

   In many cases, where you say "MPLS" you are probably referring
   to the data plane, and specifically a packet-switching data
   plane with an MPLS encapsulation.

   But in other cases, "MPLS" and "MPLS-TE" are synonymous and
   refer to a signaling/routing control plane using the MPLS-TE
   extensions to RSVP and to the two IGPs OSPF and IS-IS.

   In many cases you say "GMPLS-TE" which is not something we
   specifically recognise although we can assume that you mean
   simply "GMPLS". Sometimes, where you are trying to
   distinguish a TE LSP established using MPLS-TE from one set
   up using GMPLS you may intend to say "GMPLS TE-LSP" rather
   than "GMPLS-TE LSP".

   We feel that close attention to the terminology may help
   clarify the document.

MFAF> We have gone through the document and reflected your suggestions
in the text.

3. Section 1.1 states:
     The purpose of this specification is to define an MPLS-based
     Client to Network Interconnect (CNI) for establishing GMPLS
     Traffic Engineered (TE) Label Switched Paths (LSPs).
   Can we assume that this means that the client-to-client LSPs
   are established using GMPLS protocols, but that the signaling
   within the core network is out of scope? Especially since
   section 1.2 states:
     At the CNI, it is not desirable to have the client equipment
     participate in the internal control protocols of the MPLS
     network.
MFAF> We have reflected this suggestion in the text of section 1.2.

4. Can you clarify why you have selected GMPLS protocols and not
   MPLS-TE protocols on which to build your CNI. We are not
   opposed to this, but are seeking to understand the choice.
   Perhaps the main reason is the requirement for bidirectional
   LSPs.
MFAF> To facilitate use of bi-direction LSPs and to leverage existing
implementations of the standard.
We have reflected this rationale in the text of section 1.2.

5. Can you clarify whether the core network is assumed to be
   PSC only? That is, for example, if the CNI encoding is POS,
   would it be acceptable for the PE and the rest of the core
   network to switch the LSP as TDM until the remote PE or even
   CE, or do you require that the PE must perform packet
   switching? If the PE must perform packet switching, is it
   still acceptable for the core LSP (PE-PE) to be switched at
   some other technology?
MFAF>We assume that the core is PSC only.  The CNI is implemented at the
edge of the network.
Details of the core network beyond what is stated in section 1.3 are
beyond the scope of the CNI.

6. Section 1.3 states:
     Where the network uses MPLS-TE signaling, the PE routers are
     expected to perform the translation.
   It is our opinion that this translation is non-trivial and may
   be impossible for some of the GMPLS services that are
   available at the CNI. For example, supporting a bidirectional
   service over an MPLS-TE signaling network requires additional
   coordination between the end-points that is currently not
   available in the MPLS-TE extensions to RSVP-TE.
   From the following text in section 7.1, we assume that the PE
   may refuse a CNI request if it is unable to provide the
   required level of function.
      The transport network in the provider network is a GMPLS or
      MPLS-TE based packet switched network that must support
      request for uni-directional LSPs and may support requests
      for bi-directional LSPs
MFAF> In section 1.3 we state that the core has support for a minimum
set of GMPLS capabilities.
e.g., bidirectional LSP support, traffic engineering QoS capabilities.

7. Section 2.1
   The correct expansion of "GMPLS" is "Generalized Multiprotocol
   Label Switching". In view of you chosen expansion of "MPLS",
   you may prefer to show this as "Generalized Multi Protocol
   Label Switching".

   The correct expansion of "FEC" is "Forwarding Equivalence
   Class".

MFAF> We have reflected this suggestion in the text.  See the Acronyms
section.

8. Section 7.2 states:
     The CE and PE nodes are inter-connected by point-to-point
     interfaces.  The signaling channel is "in-band", i.e., the
     labeled packets share the same access connection as the
     RSVP-TE signaling.
   This is an acceptable, but not required, method of deploying
   GMPLS-based signaling. It is our suspicion reading this very
   short section that it is your intention to forbid the use of
   the IF_ID RSVP_HOP Object at the CNI. Can you confirm or deny
   this?

MFAF> At our last meeting in Chicago we decided to allow the use of the
IF_ID_RSVP_HOP as an option.  See section 7.2.

9. Section 7.3 states:
     A client need only know its own address, a reachable address
     of the adjacent PE-node, and know the address of any other
     client to which it wishes to connect.  The addresses listed
     above must be configured on each client.

     A PE need only know (and track) the addresses on interfaces
     attached to clients, as well as the Node IDs of these
     attached clients. In addition, the IP/MPLS network needs to
     know reachability to the interface addresses and Node IDs of
     other PEs to which an attached client is permitted to
     connect.

   This appears to miss the fact that the client will address a
   CNI connection request to a remote client address. The local
   PE must, therefore, know how to route to these client
   addresses that are outside the core routing domain.

   Perhaps the final sentence should say CE not PE?

   But in 9.1.2 you have:
     When a PE receives a Path message from a client that
     contains no ERO indicating transit network selection, then
     the PE is responsible for progressing the Path message
     toward the destination.  The progression of the Path
     message is beyond the scope of this specification.

   While the details are clearly out of scope, it *is* relevant
   to the definition of the CNI how the core acquires and
   distributes the client-side addressing information that is
   necessary for routing across the core. You will observe that
   the problem you are solving (including the fact that the
   client addresses may come from an address space that overlaps
   with the core address space) is similar to the L3VPN problem.

MFAF> We corrected the text to address this issue in section 7.3.
Also see the changes in section 9.1.2.

10. What is the expected behavior from the core network when an
    E-LSP is requested at the CNI?

    Can we assume that the expectation is that an appropriate
    E-LSP will also be established across the core so that
    Diffserv behavior will be performed along the whole length
    of the client-client connection, or is this not a
    requirement?

    If core Diffserv behavior is required, how will the core
    handle the presence of multiple classes?

MFAF>This is assumed and although how it is done is beyond the
scope of the specification, section 7.4.1 now states what is expected of
the network.

11. You are correct to observe that the ERO is optional in GMPLS
    implementations (sections 9.1.1 and 9.1.2), however, since
    you are specifying a profile for use at the CNI, and since
    both the CE and the PE must be CNI-aware (i.e., you cannot
    simply use legacy implementations) you may find it convenient
    to mandate support of the ERO at the CNI.

    We believe that in practice all implementations support ERO.

MFAF> We still do not mandate ERO because there was no agreement
within the MFAF TC to mandate it.  See changes made in 9.1.2.

12. In section 9.1.1 you have:
      The client populates the ERO object with only one sub-object
      containing an Autonomous System Number (ASN) representing a
      transit network beyond the originating service provider.
      The client equipment must set the ASN sub-object 'L' bit to
      1, indicating a loose route.
    It is not completely clear what is meant by 'the originating
    service provider', but we assume that this refers to the
    network that the ingress PE belongs to. In this case, this
     ERO is malformed and will be rejected. The first sub-object
    of a received ERO must always define an abstract node that
    the receiver is a member of. See RFC 3209, section 4.3.4.1,
    point 1).

MFAF> We reflected this in section 9.1.1.

13. In section 9.4:
      PE next to a client receives a PathErr with
      Path_State_Removed from the network, it may in turn
      generate either a ResvTear or PathTear, whichever is
      applicable, to be sent to the client.
    There are no circumstances in which a PE receiving a PathErr
    with Path_State_Removed from the network would send PathTear
    to the client.

    It is unclear to us why you would specify that the CNI built
    on GMPLS might not use this standard GMPLS procedure.

MFAF>We reflected this in section 9.4.

14. In section 9.5.3:
      The Extended Classtype object is signaled in the Path
      message, and saved in the Path State Block (PSB) at every
      hop.
    We recommend that you simply state that the state is stored
    as every hop. The existence of a PSB is implementation-
    specific.

    Can you please clarify "at every hop". Are you expecting
    nodes in the core network to store this information. If so,
    you should note that the core nodes will not recognize the
    object class and will reject any messages carrying it.

    We also suggest that before progressing your own extensions
    for multi-class DSTE LSPs you should look at the existing
    work within the IETF:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-minei-diffserv-te-multi-class-
02.txt
<http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-minei-diffserv-te-multi-class
-02.txt> .
    If this work is not adequate for your requirements, we
    would encourage you to work with its authors to produce
    a single standardized solution within the IETF.

MFAF>We removed all references to PSB, and all reference to "at every
hop".
This better aligns with our scope of not specifying the network
internals.
See section 9.5.3.

15. In 9.5.4:
      An LSR that recognizes the Extended Classtype object and
      that receives a Path message which contains the Extended
      Classtype object but which does not contain a Label Request
      object or which does not have a session type of
      LSP_Tunnel_IPv4, must send a PathErr message towards the
      sender with the error code 'extended-classtype Error' and
      an error value of 'Unexpected Extended Classtype object'.
      These are defined below:
    Why do you define new parsing behavior for the absence of a
    Label Request object (by the way, you should say Generalized
    Label Request object, since this is GMPLS)? The absence of
    mandatory objects is already covered in RFC2205.

MFAF> We removed the reference to "the absence of (Generalized) Label
Request object".
This implies that if the Generalized Label Request object is missing,
the relevant procedures of RFC 2205 will
be performed.

16. The error code defined in 9.5.4 is conformant with RFC 3936.
    You may wish to look at draft-swallow-rsvp-user-error-spec
    in case this gives you the ability to handle more detailed
    private error codes.

MFAF> In our specifications we are limited to referring only to
documents
that have been progressed to the RFC editor queue and beyond.  We will
certainly
consider reference to draft-swallow-rsvp-user-error-spec in future
revisions of the CNI.

Finally, we would like to refer you to
draft-kumaki-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-reqts-01.txt and
draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-gmpls-interwork-fmwk-01.txt for the latest state
of discussions in CCAMP with respect to interworking MPLS and GMPLS
networks.

MFAF> Thanks for pointing out these documents.  We will consider these
should our work
scope be expanded to include details of the core network and MPLS and
GMPLS interworking.

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