
From lizhong.jin@nsn.com  Mon Aug  3 22:34:37 2009
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From: "Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai)" <lizhong.jin@nsn.com>
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Cc: zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn, xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
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Hi Fatai and all:
I agree with the issues of excessive number of labels if using the same
label concept of RFC4328. By using bit map for label encoding is a good
idea. And from my understanding,
draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00 can merge this bit
map idea if Fatai agree.

For backward compatibility, we can not assume that RFC4328 is not
deployed unless we can provide some kind of survey report. So currently
the right assumption is that RFC4328 has been deployed, and backward
compatibity should be considered.

Best Regards
Lizhong Jin

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:33:56 +0200
From: "BELOTTI SERGIO" <Sergio.Belotti@alcatel-lucent.it>
Subject: [CCAMP] R: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
	forEvolutive OTN
To: "Fatai" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>, <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>,
	<dbrungard@att.com>, <lberger@labn.net>,
	<diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>,
<daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>,
	<zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>,
<xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn>
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Message-ID:
=09
<3F44186D7141E247972EAC6655B0A29101FA7A56@FRVELSMBS21.ad2.ad.alcatel.com
>
=09
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"

Dear Fatai and all,

=20

We agree on the major points raised by Fatai as general issue to be
solved in the context of extension needed to cope with new containers
defined in ITU  q11 context, in addition to handling ODU multiplexing
scenarios in existing OTN.

There are two basic points that brings to the need to update the RFC4328
anyway.

=20

1) the present RFC does not permit the link based negotiation  for time
slot allocation . No information about tributary port numbers is present
and only in case we have "single layer" , no multiplexing LO --> HO you
can apply . So this is a lack against the original G.709 even without
considering G.709 Am3 .

=20

2) Scalability: The extension required in the context of new OTN with
the introduction of ODU0, ODU4, and above all ODUflex , required a real
modifications of the structure of the label to avoid real big size of
number of labels to transmit offloading signalling session. Extension
based on RFC4328 logic do not scale when ODU-flex is used. Large ODU
flex containers will generate

an excessive number of labels (in principle up to 80 per link) causing
problems with the size of the RSVP-TE message.

=20

This two points together call to the need to change something in RFC.

Backward compatibility aspects, present in all the drafts, are surely to
be considered and if there are single layer systems deployed using
RFC4328 this should be grandfathered.

=20

Best Regards

=20

Sergio

=20

=20

Sergio Belotti

=20

CTO Optics Division

Alcatel-Lucent

=20

+39 039 6863033

+39 039 6863590

=20

________________________________

Da: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di
Fatai
Inviato: mercoled? 29 luglio 2009 18.33
A: fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; dbrungard@att.com; lberger@labn.net;
diego.caviglia@ericsson.com; daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com;
zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Oggetto: Re: [CCAMP] Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
forEvolutive OTN

=20

Hi all,

=20

To support the current verison of G.709, we think the label format
defined in RFC4328 need to be re-defined anyway. The new OTN label
format should support the whole ODU sets, not only the ODU1, 2, and 3,
but also ODU0, ODU4, even ODUFlex. The following three aspects should be
considered carefully:

=20

1) The extensibility of the label format is the first thing we should
consider. With the development of OTN technology, RFC4328 label format
style needs to be extended to support the new bitrate ODU (eg. ODU5,
6...). By the end, we may need keep extending the label formats.
Managing lots of label format may cause big trouble, so we need one-shot
label format for the evolving OTN. =20

=20

2) Scalability is another key issue. RFC4328 style format may result in
big size of the total labels, which definitely increase the burden of
the signaling. An efficient approach is needed to carry the same label
information but with less amount of the data, bitmap style is the right
way to go.

=20

3) For backward compatibility, if there are no implementations for
RFC4328 (or if there are no deployments it is desirable to deprecate
even if it is uncomfortable for existing implementations), it is very
safe to deprecate the old definition, and an extensible, efficient and
scalable solution could be helpful. The label defined in draft-zhang
does not overwrite RFC4328, it can allow the old definition to continue
to exist.

=20

Hope this can clarify your concern.

=20

Authors of draft-zhang

=20

=20

=20

	----- Original Message -----=20

	From: fu.xihua@zte.com.cn=20

	To: dbrungard@att.com ; lberger@labn.net ; zhangfatai@huawei.com
; diego.caviglia@ericsson.com ; daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com=20

	Cc: ccamp@ietf.org=20

	Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 5:33 PM

	Subject: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension for
Evolutive OTN

	=20

=09
	Hi Fatai and All,=20
=09
	We have presented the following two document  in the CCAMP
morning session. But we have no more time to further discuss GMPLS
extension for evolutive OTN=20
	draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00.txt
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evo
l-otn-00> =20
	draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-01.txt
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-01.txt
> =20
=09
	We have a couple of comments and questions for the draft-zhang.=20
	(1) draft-zhang defined the extensions including what has been
done in RFC4328 (i.e., ODU1, ODU2 and ODU3).=20
	      draft-ceccarellifuxh defined new Gneralized Label only for
new application (i.e., ODU0, 1.25G ODU1, 1.25G ODU2, 1.25G ODU3, ODU2e,
ODU3e1, ODU3e2, ODUflex and ODU4).=20
	      draft-ceccarellifuxh is only a supplement of RFC4328.=20
	      How can we used RFC4328 and draft-zhang ?      =20
	      Any way, if we need to update an previous RFC, we should
assume that it has been deployed, not asking if someone did or not.=20
=09
	(2) Do you really want to remove NMC from the Traffic
Parameters?=20
	      If you do that, I think we have to abandon RFC4328.=20
=09
	(3) The compatibility consideration in draft-zhang.=20
	   We don't think the extensions in draft-zhang can coexist with
RFC4328.=20
	   You point out "we can just do some translation or mapping in
the new nodes".=20
	   But before the translation or mapping, you have to know the
Generalized Label Format.  =20
	   We concern about:  =20
	   i)  How does one node know the Generalized Label format,
especially for ODU1, ODU2 and ODU3 base on your solution?    =20
	        It may depend on the capability of the adjacent network
element.=20
	   ii) But how can the control plane know the adjacent network
element's capability without discovery mechanism?=20
	       You should know that GMPLS signaling extension should be
independent on the discovery mechanism and the configuration of
management plane.=20
	   iii) The control plane don't need to know the G.709(2003/03)
or G.709 Amendment3 network element?=20
	     =20
	     In a word, we think it can not do the translation and
mapping. So we can not get the compatibility with RFC4328 in
draft-zhang.=20
=09
	 (4) The Generalized Label in draft-zhang=20
	    - managing a variable length label could be a mess.=20
	    - draft-zhang uses a first part of the label which has fixed
values and then a variable number of bit that is the bitmap.=20
	       The bitmap can be long from 0 to 80 bits depending on the
signal type.=20
	    - the value of the bitmap is not independent but depends on
the values of two previous fields (ODUk and ODUj) and becomes reserved
in case of K=3DJ=20
	    - a bitmap label have not been used nor in SDH and not in
WSON where a fixed label (4 bytes) is used.=20
=09
	Xihua Fu=20
	ZTE=20
=09
=09

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From diego.caviglia@ericsson.com  Thu Aug  6 03:20:12 2009
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Thread-Topic: RE: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
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References: <mailman.2433.1248946480.4909.ccamp@ietf.org>, <328B9F5068825A48A4B8422A350B90478ADEF6@CNBEEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <200908042202560621383@mail.ritt.com.cn>
From: "Diego Caviglia" <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>
To: "zhangguoying" <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>, "Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai)" <lizhong.jin@nsn.com>, <ccamp@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
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Hi All,

          I agree with Zhang, we need to face out if there 4328 =
implementation up and running in real networks that can be impacted by a =
major label format change, I think this can be managed by Lou and Deb.

=20

>From technical point of view, even if I=A1=AFm one of the authors of the =
draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00.txt, I have to =
admit that the solution proposed by Fatai is a good one and I have no =
problem in working with him to harmonize the two documents to provide an =
unified ID.

=20

Hope this helps in speeding up this work

=20

BR

=20

D

=20

=20

=20

__________________________________________

Diego Caviglia

Strategic Product Manager

Broadband Networks, PL Broadband Optical Network=20

Ericsson Telecomunicazioni S.p.A. (TEI)

Via A. Negrone 1/A                                 Office:  +39 010 600 =
3736

16153, Genova, Italy                               Fax: +39 010 600 3577

Block E Level 4                                        Mobile: +39 335 =
7181762

www.ericsson.com <http://www.ericsson.com/>                              =
diego.caviglia@ericsson.com

This communication is confidential and intended solely for the =
addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution =
is prohibited. If you believe this message has been sent to you in =
error, please notify the sender by replying to this transmission and =
delete the message without disclosing it. Thank you.

________________________________

________________________________

From: zhangguoying [mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn]=20
Sent: marted=A8=AC 4 agosto 2009 16.03
To: Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai); ccamp@ietf.org
Cc: zhangfatai@huawei.com; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; dbrungard@att.com; =
lberger@labn.net; Diego Caviglia; Daniele Ceccarelli; =
xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn
Subject: Re: RE: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension

=20

Hi all,

=20

As many experts have explained, the label encoding with bit map in =
draft-zhang is  surely a better way to achieve extensibility and =
scalability of OTN lable. =20

=20

The main issue that bit map label format might have is the backword =
compatibility. I think we might need to start an survey among the OTN =
service providers in the mailing list,  and see if there are any OTN =
networks deployed with GMPLS RFC4328 lable format.=20

=20

If there're no real deployment, we don't need to consider the =
compatability problem;

=20

If there're some deployment, compatability problem need to be solved . =
An easy way might be adding an label version bit in the label format, or =
some other solutions may be searched out.

=20

=20

best regards,

Guoying Zhang

=20

=20

=20

2009-08-04=20

________________________________

zhangguoying=20

________________________________

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai)=20

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-04  13:34:24=20

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ccamp@ietf.org=20

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA zhangfatai@huawei.com; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; =
dbrungard@att.com; lberger@labn.net; diego.caviglia@ericsson.com; =
daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com; zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; =
xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn=20

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension=20

Hi Fatai and all:

I agree with the issues of excessive number of labels if using the same

label concept of RFC4328. By using bit map for label encoding is a good

idea. And from my understanding,

draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00 can merge this bit

map idea if Fatai agree.

=20

For backward compatibility, we can not assume that RFC4328 is not

deployed unless we can provide some kind of survey report. So currently

the right assumption is that RFC4328 has been deployed, and backward

compatibity should be considered.

=20

Best Regards

Lizhong Jin

=20

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=20

Message: 1

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:33:56 +0200

From: "BELOTTI SERGIO"  <Sergio.Belotti@alcatel-lucent.it >

Subject: [CCAMP] R: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension

forEvolutive OTN

To: "Fatai"  <zhangfatai@huawei.com >,  <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn >,

<dbrungard@att.com >,  <lberger@labn.net >,

<diego.caviglia@ericsson.com >,

<daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com >,

<zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn >,

<xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn >

Cc: ccamp@ietf.org

Message-ID:

<3F44186D7141E247972EAC6655B0A29101FA7A56@FRVELSMBS21.ad2.ad.alcatel.com

>=20

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"

=20

Dear Fatai and all,

=20

=20

=20

We agree on the major points raised by Fatai as general issue to be

solved in the context of extension needed to cope with new containers

defined in ITU  q11 context, in addition to handling ODU multiplexing

scenarios in existing OTN.

=20

There are two basic points that brings to the need to update the RFC4328

anyway.

=20

=20

=20

1) the present RFC does not permit the link based negotiation  for time

slot allocation . No information about tributary port numbers is present

and only in case we have "single layer" , no multiplexing LO -- > HO you

can apply . So this is a lack against the original G.709 even without

considering G.709 Am3 .

=20

=20

=20

2) Scalability: The extension required in the context of new OTN with

the introduction of ODU0, ODU4, and above all ODUflex , required a real

modifications of the structure of the label to avoid real big size of

number of labels to transmit offloading signalling session. Extension

based on RFC4328 logic do not scale when ODU-flex is used. Large ODU

flex containers will generate

=20

an excessive number of labels (in principle up to 80 per link) causing

problems with the size of the RSVP-TE message.

=20

=20

=20

This two points together call to the need to change something in RFC.

=20

Backward compatibility aspects, present in all the drafts, are surely to

be considered and if there are single layer systems deployed using

RFC4328 this should be grandfathered.

=20

=20

=20

Best Regards

=20

=20

=20

Sergio

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

Sergio Belotti

=20

=20

=20

CTO Optics Division

=20

Alcatel-Lucent

=20

=20

=20

+39 039 6863033

=20

+39 039 6863590

=20

=20

=20

________________________________

=20

Da: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di

Fatai

Inviato: mercoled? 29 luglio 2009 18.33

A: fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; dbrungard@att.com; lberger@labn.net;

diego.caviglia@ericsson.com; daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com;

zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn

Cc: ccamp@ietf.org

Oggetto: Re: [CCAMP] Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension

forEvolutive OTN

=20

=20

=20

Hi all,

=20

=20

=20

To support the current verison of G.709, we think the label format

defined in RFC4328 need to be re-defined anyway. The new OTN label

format should support the whole ODU sets, not only the ODU1, 2, and 3,

but also ODU0, ODU4, even ODUFlex. The following three aspects should be

considered carefully:

=20

=20

=20

1) The extensibility of the label format is the first thing we should

consider. With the development of OTN technology, RFC4328 label format

style needs to be extended to support the new bitrate ODU (eg. ODU5,

6...). By the end, we may need keep extending the label formats.

Managing lots of label format may cause big trouble, so we need one-shot

label format for the evolving OTN. =20

=20

=20

=20

2) Scalability is another key issue. RFC4328 style format may result in

big size of the total labels, which definitely increase the burden of

the signaling. An efficient approach is needed to carry the same label

information but with less amount of the data, bitmap style is the right

way to go.

=20

=20

=20

3) For backward compatibility, if there are no implementations for

RFC4328 (or if there are no deployments it is desirable to deprecate

even if it is uncomfortable for existing implementations), it is very

safe to deprecate the old definition, and an extensible, efficient and

scalable solution could be helpful. The label defined in draft-zhang

does not overwrite RFC4328, it can allow the old definition to continue

to exist.

=20

=20

=20

Hope this can clarify your concern.

=20

=20

=20

Authors of draft-zhang

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

----- Original Message -----=20

=20

From: fu.xihua@zte.com.cn=20

=20

To: dbrungard@att.com ; lberger@labn.net ; zhangfatai@huawei.com

; diego.caviglia@ericsson.com ; daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com=20

=20

Cc: ccamp@ietf.org=20

=20

Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 5:33 PM

=20

Subject: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension for

Evolutive OTN

=20

=20

=20

Hi Fatai and All,=20

We have presented the following two document  in the CCAMP

morning session. But we have no more time to further discuss GMPLS

extension for evolutive OTN=20

draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00.txt

<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evo

l-otn-00 > =20

draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-01.txt

<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-01.txt

> =20

We have a couple of comments and questions for the draft-zhang.=20

(1) draft-zhang defined the extensions including what has been

done in RFC4328 (i.e., ODU1, ODU2 and ODU3).=20

      draft-ceccarellifuxh defined new Gneralized Label only for

new application (i.e., ODU0, 1.25G ODU1, 1.25G ODU2, 1.25G ODU3, ODU2e,

ODU3e1, ODU3e2, ODUflex and ODU4).=20

      draft-ceccarellifuxh is only a supplement of RFC4328.=20

      How can we used RFC4328 and draft-zhang ?      =20

      Any way, if we need to update an previous RFC, we should

assume that it has been deployed, not asking if someone did or not.=20

(2) Do you really want to remove NMC from the Traffic

Parameters?=20

      If you do that, I think we have to abandon RFC4328.=20

(3) The compatibility consideration in draft-zhang.=20

   We don't think the extensions in draft-zhang can coexist with

RFC4328.=20

   You point out "we can just do some translation or mapping in

the new nodes".=20

   But before the translation or mapping, you have to know the

Generalized Label Format.  =20

   We concern about:  =20

   i)  How does one node know the Generalized Label format,

especially for ODU1, ODU2 and ODU3 base on your solution?    =20

        It may depend on the capability of the adjacent network

element.=20

   ii) But how can the control plane know the adjacent network

element's capability without discovery mechanism?=20

       You should know that GMPLS signaling extension should be

independent on the discovery mechanism and the configuration of

management plane.=20

   iii) The control plane don't need to know the G.709(2003/03)

or G.709 Amendment3 network element?=20

     =20

     In a word, we think it can not do the translation and

mapping. So we can not get the compatibility with RFC4328 in

draft-zhang.=20

 (4) The Generalized Label in draft-zhang=20

    - managing a variable length label could be a mess.=20

    - draft-zhang uses a first part of the label which has fixed

values and then a variable number of bit that is the bitmap.=20

       The bitmap can be long from 0 to 80 bits depending on the

signal type.=20

    - the value of the bitmap is not independent but depends on

the values of two previous fields (ODUk and ODUj) and becomes reserved

in case of K=3DJ=20

    - a bitmap label have not been used nor in SDH and not in

WSON where a fixed label (4 bytes) is used.=20

Xihua Fu=20

ZTE=20

=20

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------------------------------

=20

_______________________________________________

CCAMP mailing list

CCAMP@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

=20

=20

End of CCAMP Digest, Vol 14, Issue 26

*************************************


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi =
All,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
I agree with </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Zhang, we need =
to face
out if there 4328 implementation up and running in real networks that =
can be
impacted by a major label format change, I think this can be managed by =
Lou and
Deb.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>From technical point of view, =
even if I=A1=AFm
one of the authors of the =
draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00.txt,
I have to admit that the solution proposed by Fatai is a good one and I =
have no
problem in working with him to harmonize the two documents to provide an
unified ID.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Hope this helps in speeding up =
this work<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p=
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 lang=3DEN-GB =
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font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-style:italic'>Strategic Product =
Manager</span></font></i><font
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<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
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<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabIndex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3DSimSun><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
zhangguoying [mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> marted=A8=AC 4 =
agosto 2009 16.03<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Jin, Lizhong (NSN -
CN/Shanghai); ccamp@ietf.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> =
zhangfatai@huawei.com;
fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; dbrungard@att.com; lberger@labn.net; Diego =
Caviglia;
Daniele Ceccarelli; xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: RE: =
Discussion about
the GMPLS Signaling Extension</span></font><font size=3D3 =
face=3DSimSun><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Hi
all,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>As
many experts have explained, the label encoding with bit map in =
draft-zhang
is&nbsp; surely&nbsp;a better way to =
achieve&nbsp;extensibility&nbsp;and&nbsp;scalability
of OTN lable.&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>The&nbsp;main
issue&nbsp;that&nbsp;bit map&nbsp;label format&nbsp;might have&nbsp;is
the&nbsp;backword compatibility.&nbsp;I&nbsp;think&nbsp;we might need
to&nbsp;start an survey among the OTN service providers in the mailing
list,&nbsp; and see if there are any OTN networks deployed with GMPLS
RFC4328&nbsp;lable format. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>If
there're no real deployment, we&nbsp;don't need to consider the =
compatability
problem;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>If
there're some deployment, compatability problem need to be&nbsp;solved . =
An
easy way&nbsp;might be&nbsp;adding an&nbsp;label&nbsp;version =
bit&nbsp;in the
label format, or some other solutions may be searched =
out.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>best
regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Guoying
Zhang<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dsilver face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:silver'>2009-08-04 </span></font><font size=3D2 =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>

</div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:navy'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D122 style=3D'width:91.5pt' align=3Dleft>

</span></font></div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dsilver face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:silver'>zhangguoying </span></font><font size=3D2 =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>

</div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:navy'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></font></div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft =
style=3D'text-align:left'><strong><b><font size=3D2
face=3DSimSun><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun'>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA</s=
pan></font></b></strong><font
size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> Jin,
Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai) <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft =
style=3D'text-align:left'><strong><b><font size=3D2
face=3DSimSun><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun'>=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=
=BA</span></font></b></strong><font
size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>
2009-08-04&nbsp; 13:34:24 <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft =
style=3D'text-align:left'><strong><b><font size=3D2
face=3DSimSun><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA</s=
pan></font></b></strong><font
size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>
ccamp@ietf.org <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft =
style=3D'text-align:left'><strong><b><font size=3D2
face=3DSimSun><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun'>=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA</span></=
font></b></strong><font
size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>
zhangfatai@huawei.com; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; dbrungard@att.com;
lberger@labn.net; diego.caviglia@ericsson.com; =
daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com;
zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft =
style=3D'text-align:left'><strong><b><font size=3D2
face=3DSimSun><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun'>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA</span></=
font></b></strong><font
size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> RE:
Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Hi&nbsp;Fatai&nbsp;and&nbs=
p;all:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>I&nbsp;agree&nbsp;with&nbs=
p;the&nbsp;issues&nbsp;of&nbsp;excessive&nbsp;number&nbsp;of&nbsp;labels&=
nbsp;if&nbsp;using&nbsp;the&nbsp;same<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>label&nbsp;concept&nbsp;of=
&nbsp;RFC4328.&nbsp;By&nbsp;using&nbsp;bit&nbsp;map&nbsp;for&nbsp;label&n=
bsp;encoding&nbsp;is&nbsp;a&nbsp;good<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>idea.&nbsp;And&nbsp;from&n=
bsp;my&nbsp;understanding,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp=
-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00&nbsp;can&nbsp;merge&nbsp;this&nbsp;bit<o:p></o=
:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>map&nbsp;idea&nbsp;if&nbsp=
;Fatai&nbsp;agree.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>For&nbsp;backward&nbsp;com=
patibility,&nbsp;we&nbsp;can&nbsp;not&nbsp;assume&nbsp;that&nbsp;RFC4328&=
nbsp;is&nbsp;not<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>deployed&nbsp;unless&nbsp;=
we&nbsp;can&nbsp;provide&nbsp;some&nbsp;kind&nbsp;of&nbsp;survey&nbsp;rep=
ort.&nbsp;So&nbsp;currently<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>the&nbsp;right&nbsp;assump=
tion&nbsp;is&nbsp;that&nbsp;RFC4328&nbsp;has&nbsp;been&nbsp;deployed,&nbs=
p;and&nbsp;backward<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>compatibity&nbsp;should&nb=
sp;be&nbsp;considered.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Best&nbsp;Regards<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Lizhong&nbsp;Jin<o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>--------------------------=
--------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Message:&nbsp;1<o:p></o:p>=
</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Date:&nbsp;Thu,&nbsp;30&nb=
sp;Jul&nbsp;2009&nbsp;11:33:56&nbsp;+0200<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>From:&nbsp;&quot;BELOTTI&n=
bsp;SERGIO&quot;&nbsp;
&lt;Sergio.Belotti@alcatel-lucent.it &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Subject:&nbsp;[CCAMP]&nbsp=
;R:&nbsp;Discussion&nbsp;about&nbsp;the&nbsp;GMPLS&nbsp;Signaling&nbsp;Ex=
tension<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>forEvolutive&nbsp;OTN<o:p>=
</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>To:&nbsp;&quot;Fatai&quot;=
&nbsp;
&lt;zhangfatai@huawei.com &gt;,&nbsp; &lt;fu.xihua@zte.com.cn =
&gt;,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&lt;dbrungard@att.com
&gt;,&nbsp; &lt;lberger@labn.net &gt;,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&lt;diego.caviglia@ericsso=
n.com
&gt;,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&lt;daniele.ceccarelli@eri=
csson.com
&gt;,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&lt;zhangguoying@mail.ritt=
.com.cn
&gt;,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&lt;xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com=
.cn
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Cc:&nbsp;ccamp@ietf.org<o:=
p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Message-ID:<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&lt;3F44186D7141E247972EAC=
6655B0A29101FA7A56@FRVELSMBS21.ad2.ad.alcatel.com<o:p></o:p></span></font=
></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Content-Type:&nbsp;text/pl=
ain;&nbsp;charset=3D&quot;iso-8859-1&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Dear&nbsp;Fatai&nbsp;and&n=
bsp;all,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>We&nbsp;agree&nbsp;on&nbsp=
;the&nbsp;major&nbsp;points&nbsp;raised&nbsp;by&nbsp;Fatai&nbsp;as&nbsp;g=
eneral&nbsp;issue&nbsp;to&nbsp;be<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>solved&nbsp;in&nbsp;the&nb=
sp;context&nbsp;of&nbsp;extension&nbsp;needed&nbsp;to&nbsp;cope&nbsp;with=
&nbsp;new&nbsp;containers<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>defined&nbsp;in&nbsp;ITU&n=
bsp;&nbsp;q11&nbsp;context,&nbsp;in&nbsp;addition&nbsp;to&nbsp;handling&n=
bsp;ODU&nbsp;multiplexing<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>scenarios&nbsp;in&nbsp;exi=
sting&nbsp;OTN.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>There&nbsp;are&nbsp;two&nb=
sp;basic&nbsp;points&nbsp;that&nbsp;brings&nbsp;to&nbsp;the&nbsp;need&nbs=
p;to&nbsp;update&nbsp;the&nbsp;RFC4328<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>anyway.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>1)&nbsp;the&nbsp;present&n=
bsp;RFC&nbsp;does&nbsp;not&nbsp;permit&nbsp;the&nbsp;link&nbsp;based&nbsp=
;negotiation&nbsp;&nbsp;for&nbsp;time<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>slot&nbsp;allocation&nbsp;=
.&nbsp;No&nbsp;information&nbsp;about&nbsp;tributary&nbsp;port&nbsp;numbe=
rs&nbsp;is&nbsp;present<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>and&nbsp;only&nbsp;in&nbsp=
;case&nbsp;we&nbsp;have&nbsp;&quot;single&nbsp;layer&quot;&nbsp;,&nbsp;no=
&nbsp;multiplexing&nbsp;LO&nbsp;--
&gt;&nbsp;HO&nbsp;you<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>can&nbsp;apply&nbsp;.&nbsp=
;So&nbsp;this&nbsp;is&nbsp;a&nbsp;lack&nbsp;against&nbsp;the&nbsp;origina=
l&nbsp;G.709&nbsp;even&nbsp;without<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>considering&nbsp;G.709&nbs=
p;Am3&nbsp;.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>2)&nbsp;Scalability:&nbsp;=
The&nbsp;extension&nbsp;required&nbsp;in&nbsp;the&nbsp;context&nbsp;of&nb=
sp;new&nbsp;OTN&nbsp;with<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>the&nbsp;introduction&nbsp=
;of&nbsp;ODU0,&nbsp;ODU4,&nbsp;and&nbsp;above&nbsp;all&nbsp;ODUflex&nbsp;=
,&nbsp;required&nbsp;a&nbsp;real<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>modifications&nbsp;of&nbsp=
;the&nbsp;structure&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;label&nbsp;to&nbsp;avoid&nbsp;r=
eal&nbsp;big&nbsp;size&nbsp;of<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>number&nbsp;of&nbsp;labels=
&nbsp;to&nbsp;transmit&nbsp;offloading&nbsp;signalling&nbsp;session.&nbsp=
;Extension<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>based&nbsp;on&nbsp;RFC4328=
&nbsp;logic&nbsp;do&nbsp;not&nbsp;scale&nbsp;when&nbsp;ODU-flex&nbsp;is&n=
bsp;used.&nbsp;Large&nbsp;ODU<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>flex&nbsp;containers&nbsp;=
will&nbsp;generate<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>an&nbsp;excessive&nbsp;num=
ber&nbsp;of&nbsp;labels&nbsp;(in&nbsp;principle&nbsp;up&nbsp;to&nbsp;80&n=
bsp;per&nbsp;link)&nbsp;causing<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>problems&nbsp;with&nbsp;th=
e&nbsp;size&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;RSVP-TE&nbsp;message.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>This&nbsp;two&nbsp;points&=
nbsp;together&nbsp;call&nbsp;to&nbsp;the&nbsp;need&nbsp;to&nbsp;change&nb=
sp;something&nbsp;in&nbsp;RFC.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Backward&nbsp;compatibilit=
y&nbsp;aspects,&nbsp;present&nbsp;in&nbsp;all&nbsp;the&nbsp;drafts,&nbsp;=
are&nbsp;surely&nbsp;to<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>be&nbsp;considered&nbsp;an=
d&nbsp;if&nbsp;there&nbsp;are&nbsp;single&nbsp;layer&nbsp;systems&nbsp;de=
ployed&nbsp;using<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>RFC4328&nbsp;this&nbsp;sho=
uld&nbsp;be&nbsp;grandfathered.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Best&nbsp;Regards<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Sergio<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Sergio&nbsp;Belotti<o:p></=
o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>CTO&nbsp;Optics&nbsp;Divis=
ion<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Alcatel-Lucent<o:p></o:p><=
/span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>+39&nbsp;039&nbsp;6863033<=
o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>+39&nbsp;039&nbsp;6863590<=
o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>__________________________=
______<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Da:&nbsp;ccamp-bounces@iet=
f.org&nbsp;[mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]&nbsp;Per&nbsp;conto&nbsp;di<o:=
p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Fatai<o:p></o:p></span></f=
ont></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Inviato:&nbsp;mercoled?&nb=
sp;29&nbsp;luglio&nbsp;2009&nbsp;18.33<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>A:&nbsp;fu.xihua@zte.com.c=
n;&nbsp;dbrungard@att.com;&nbsp;lberger@labn.net;<o:p></o:p></span></font=
></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>diego.caviglia@ericsson.co=
m;&nbsp;daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com=
.cn;&nbsp;xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Cc:&nbsp;ccamp@ietf.org<o:=
p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Oggetto:&nbsp;Re:&nbsp;[CC=
AMP]&nbsp;Discussion&nbsp;about&nbsp;the&nbsp;GMPLS&nbsp;Signaling&nbsp;E=
xtension<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>forEvolutive&nbsp;OTN<o:p>=
</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Hi&nbsp;all,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>To&nbsp;support&nbsp;the&n=
bsp;current&nbsp;verison&nbsp;of&nbsp;G.709,&nbsp;we&nbsp;think&nbsp;the&=
nbsp;label&nbsp;format<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>defined&nbsp;in&nbsp;RFC43=
28&nbsp;need&nbsp;to&nbsp;be&nbsp;re-defined&nbsp;anyway.&nbsp;The&nbsp;n=
ew&nbsp;OTN&nbsp;label<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>format&nbsp;should&nbsp;su=
pport&nbsp;the&nbsp;whole&nbsp;ODU&nbsp;sets,&nbsp;not&nbsp;only&nbsp;the=
&nbsp;ODU1,&nbsp;2,&nbsp;and&nbsp;3,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>but&nbsp;also&nbsp;ODU0,&n=
bsp;ODU4,&nbsp;even&nbsp;ODUFlex.&nbsp;The&nbsp;following&nbsp;three&nbsp=
;aspects&nbsp;should&nbsp;be<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>considered&nbsp;carefully:=
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>1)&nbsp;The&nbsp;extensibi=
lity&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;label&nbsp;format&nbsp;is&nbsp;the&nbsp;first&=
nbsp;thing&nbsp;we&nbsp;should<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>consider.&nbsp;With&nbsp;t=
he&nbsp;development&nbsp;of&nbsp;OTN&nbsp;technology,&nbsp;RFC4328&nbsp;l=
abel&nbsp;format<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>style&nbsp;needs&nbsp;to&n=
bsp;be&nbsp;extended&nbsp;to&nbsp;support&nbsp;the&nbsp;new&nbsp;bitrate&=
nbsp;ODU&nbsp;(eg.&nbsp;ODU5,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>6...).&nbsp;By&nbsp;the&nb=
sp;end,&nbsp;we&nbsp;may&nbsp;need&nbsp;keep&nbsp;extending&nbsp;the&nbsp=
;label&nbsp;formats.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Managing&nbsp;lots&nbsp;of=
&nbsp;label&nbsp;format&nbsp;may&nbsp;cause&nbsp;big&nbsp;trouble,&nbsp;s=
o&nbsp;we&nbsp;need&nbsp;one-shot<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>label&nbsp;format&nbsp;for=
&nbsp;the&nbsp;evolving&nbsp;OTN.&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>2)&nbsp;Scalability&nbsp;i=
s&nbsp;another&nbsp;key&nbsp;issue.&nbsp;RFC4328&nbsp;style&nbsp;format&n=
bsp;may&nbsp;result&nbsp;in<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>big&nbsp;size&nbsp;of&nbsp=
;the&nbsp;total&nbsp;labels,&nbsp;which&nbsp;definitely&nbsp;increase&nbs=
p;the&nbsp;burden&nbsp;of<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>the&nbsp;signaling.&nbsp;A=
n&nbsp;efficient&nbsp;approach&nbsp;is&nbsp;needed&nbsp;to&nbsp;carry&nbs=
p;the&nbsp;same&nbsp;label<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>information&nbsp;but&nbsp;=
with&nbsp;less&nbsp;amount&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;data,&nbsp;bitmap&nbsp;s=
tyle&nbsp;is&nbsp;the&nbsp;right<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>way&nbsp;to&nbsp;go.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>3)&nbsp;For&nbsp;backward&=
nbsp;compatibility,&nbsp;if&nbsp;there&nbsp;are&nbsp;no&nbsp;implementati=
ons&nbsp;for<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>RFC4328&nbsp;(or&nbsp;if&n=
bsp;there&nbsp;are&nbsp;no&nbsp;deployments&nbsp;it&nbsp;is&nbsp;desirabl=
e&nbsp;to&nbsp;deprecate<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>even&nbsp;if&nbsp;it&nbsp;=
is&nbsp;uncomfortable&nbsp;for&nbsp;existing&nbsp;implementations),&nbsp;=
it&nbsp;is&nbsp;very<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>safe&nbsp;to&nbsp;deprecat=
e&nbsp;the&nbsp;old&nbsp;definition,&nbsp;and&nbsp;an&nbsp;extensible,&nb=
sp;efficient&nbsp;and<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>scalable&nbsp;solution&nbs=
p;could&nbsp;be&nbsp;helpful.&nbsp;The&nbsp;label&nbsp;defined&nbsp;in&nb=
sp;draft-zhang<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>does&nbsp;not&nbsp;overwri=
te&nbsp;RFC4328,&nbsp;it&nbsp;can&nbsp;allow&nbsp;the&nbsp;old&nbsp;defin=
ition&nbsp;to&nbsp;continue<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>to&nbsp;exist.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Hope&nbsp;this&nbsp;can&nb=
sp;clarify&nbsp;your&nbsp;concern.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Authors&nbsp;of&nbsp;draft=
-zhang<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>-----&nbsp;Original&nbsp;M=
essage&nbsp;-----&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>From:&nbsp;fu.xihua@zte.co=
m.cn&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>To:&nbsp;dbrungard@att.com=
&nbsp;;&nbsp;lberger@labn.net&nbsp;;&nbsp;zhangfatai@huawei.com<o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>;&nbsp;diego.caviglia@eric=
sson.com&nbsp;;&nbsp;daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Cc:&nbsp;ccamp@ietf.org&nb=
sp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Sent:&nbsp;Tuesday,&nbsp;J=
uly&nbsp;28,&nbsp;2009&nbsp;5:33&nbsp;PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Subject:&nbsp;Discussion&n=
bsp;about&nbsp;the&nbsp;GMPLS&nbsp;Signaling&nbsp;Extension&nbsp;for<o:p>=
</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Evolutive&nbsp;OTN<o:p></o=
:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Hi&nbsp;Fatai&nbsp;and&nbs=
p;All,&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>We&nbsp;have&nbsp;presente=
d&nbsp;the&nbsp;following&nbsp;two&nbsp;document&nbsp;&nbsp;in&nbsp;the&n=
bsp;CCAMP<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>morning&nbsp;session.&nbsp=
;But&nbsp;we&nbsp;have&nbsp;no&nbsp;more&nbsp;time&nbsp;to&nbsp;further&n=
bsp;discuss&nbsp;GMPLS<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>extension&nbsp;for&nbsp;ev=
olutive&nbsp;OTN&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp=
-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&lt;<a
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-f=
or-evo">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-f=
or-evo</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>l-otn-00
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-ev=
olving-g709-01.txt<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&lt;<a
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-=
01.txt">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-=
01.txt</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>We&nbsp;have&nbsp;a&nbsp;c=
ouple&nbsp;of&nbsp;comments&nbsp;and&nbsp;questions&nbsp;for&nbsp;the&nbs=
p;draft-zhang.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>(1)&nbsp;draft-zhang&nbsp;=
defined&nbsp;the&nbsp;extensions&nbsp;including&nbsp;what&nbsp;has&nbsp;b=
een<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>done&nbsp;in&nbsp;RFC4328&=
nbsp;(i.e.,&nbsp;ODU1,&nbsp;ODU2&nbsp;and&nbsp;ODU3).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;draft-ceccarellifuxh&nbsp;defined&nbsp;new&nbsp;Gneralized&nbsp=
;Label&nbsp;only&nbsp;for<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>new&nbsp;application&nbsp;=
(i.e.,&nbsp;ODU0,&nbsp;1.25G&nbsp;ODU1,&nbsp;1.25G&nbsp;ODU2,&nbsp;1.25G&=
nbsp;ODU3,&nbsp;ODU2e,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>ODU3e1,&nbsp;ODU3e2,&nbsp;=
ODUflex&nbsp;and&nbsp;ODU4).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;draft-ceccarellifuxh&nbsp;is&nbsp;only&nbsp;a&nbsp;supplement&n=
bsp;of&nbsp;RFC4328.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;How&nbsp;can&nbsp;we&nbsp;used&nbsp;RFC4328&nbsp;and&nbsp;draft=
-zhang&nbsp;?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;Any&nbsp;way,&nbsp;if&nbsp;we&nbsp;need&nbsp;to&nbsp;update&nbs=
p;an&nbsp;previous&nbsp;RFC,&nbsp;we&nbsp;should<o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>assume&nbsp;that&nbsp;it&n=
bsp;has&nbsp;been&nbsp;deployed,&nbsp;not&nbsp;asking&nbsp;if&nbsp;someon=
e&nbsp;did&nbsp;or&nbsp;not.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>(2)&nbsp;Do&nbsp;you&nbsp;=
really&nbsp;want&nbsp;to&nbsp;remove&nbsp;NMC&nbsp;from&nbsp;the&nbsp;Tra=
ffic<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Parameters?&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;If&nbsp;you&nbsp;do&nbsp;that,&nbsp;I&nbsp;think&nbsp;we&nbsp;h=
ave&nbsp;to&nbsp;abandon&nbsp;RFC4328.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>(3)&nbsp;The&nbsp;compatib=
ility&nbsp;consideration&nbsp;in&nbsp;draft-zhang.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;We&nbsp;=
don't&nbsp;think&nbsp;the&nbsp;extensions&nbsp;in&nbsp;draft-zhang&nbsp;c=
an&nbsp;coexist&nbsp;with<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>RFC4328.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;You&nbsp=
;point&nbsp;out&nbsp;&quot;we&nbsp;can&nbsp;just&nbsp;do&nbsp;some&nbsp;t=
ranslation&nbsp;or&nbsp;mapping&nbsp;in<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>the&nbsp;new&nbsp;nodes&qu=
ot;.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;But&nbsp=
;before&nbsp;the&nbsp;translation&nbsp;or&nbsp;mapping,&nbsp;you&nbsp;hav=
e&nbsp;to&nbsp;know&nbsp;the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Generalized&nbsp;Label&nbs=
p;Format.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;We&nbsp;=
concern&nbsp;about:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;i)&nbsp;=
&nbsp;How&nbsp;does&nbsp;one&nbsp;node&nbsp;know&nbsp;the&nbsp;Generalize=
d&nbsp;Label&nbsp;format,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>especially&nbsp;for&nbsp;O=
DU1,&nbsp;ODU2&nbsp;and&nbsp;ODU3&nbsp;base&nbsp;on&nbsp;your&nbsp;soluti=
on?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It&nbsp;may&nbsp;depend&nbsp;on&nbsp;the&nbsp;capab=
ility&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;adjacent&nbsp;network<o:p></o:p></span></font=
></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>element.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;ii)&nbsp=
;But&nbsp;how&nbsp;can&nbsp;the&nbsp;control&nbsp;plane&nbsp;know&nbsp;th=
e&nbsp;adjacent&nbsp;network<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>element's&nbsp;capability&=
nbsp;without&nbsp;discovery&nbsp;mechanism?&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font=
></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;You&nbsp;should&nbsp;know&nbsp;that&nbsp;GMPLS&nbsp;signa=
ling&nbsp;extension&nbsp;should&nbsp;be<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>independent&nbsp;on&nbsp;t=
he&nbsp;discovery&nbsp;mechanism&nbsp;and&nbsp;the&nbsp;configuration&nbs=
p;of<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>management&nbsp;plane.&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;iii)&nbs=
p;The&nbsp;control&nbsp;plane&nbsp;don't&nbsp;need&nbsp;to&nbsp;know&nbsp=
;the&nbsp;G.709(2003/03)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>or&nbsp;G.709&nbsp;Amendme=
nt3&nbsp;network&nbsp;element?&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;In&nbsp;a&nbsp;word,&nbsp;we&nbsp;think&nbsp;it&nbsp;can&nbsp;not&nbs=
p;do&nbsp;the&nbsp;translation&nbsp;and<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>mapping.&nbsp;So&nbsp;we&n=
bsp;can&nbsp;not&nbsp;get&nbsp;the&nbsp;compatibility&nbsp;with&nbsp;RFC4=
328&nbsp;in<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>draft-zhang.&nbsp;<o:p></o=
:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;(4)&nbsp;The&nbsp;Ge=
neralized&nbsp;Label&nbsp;in&nbsp;draft-zhang&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></fo=
nt></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-&=
nbsp;managing&nbsp;a&nbsp;variable&nbsp;length&nbsp;label&nbsp;could&nbsp=
;be&nbsp;a&nbsp;mess.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-&=
nbsp;draft-zhang&nbsp;uses&nbsp;a&nbsp;first&nbsp;part&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&n=
bsp;label&nbsp;which&nbsp;has&nbsp;fixed<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>values&nbsp;and&nbsp;then&=
nbsp;a&nbsp;variable&nbsp;number&nbsp;of&nbsp;bit&nbsp;that&nbsp;is&nbsp;=
the&nbsp;bitmap.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The&nbsp;bitmap&nbsp;can&nbsp;be&nbsp;long&nbsp;from&nbsp=
;0&nbsp;to&nbsp;80&nbsp;bits&nbsp;depending&nbsp;on&nbsp;the<o:p></o:p></=
span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>signal&nbsp;type.&nbsp;<o:=
p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-&=
nbsp;the&nbsp;value&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;bitmap&nbsp;is&nbsp;not&nbsp;in=
dependent&nbsp;but&nbsp;depends&nbsp;on<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>the&nbsp;values&nbsp;of&nb=
sp;two&nbsp;previous&nbsp;fields&nbsp;(ODUk&nbsp;and&nbsp;ODUj)&nbsp;and&=
nbsp;becomes&nbsp;reserved<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>in&nbsp;case&nbsp;of&nbsp;=
K=3DJ&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-&=
nbsp;a&nbsp;bitmap&nbsp;label&nbsp;have&nbsp;not&nbsp;been&nbsp;used&nbsp=
;nor&nbsp;in&nbsp;SDH&nbsp;and&nbsp;not&nbsp;in<o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><font =
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p;fixed&nbsp;label&nbsp;(4&nbsp;bytes)&nbsp;is&nbsp;used.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p=
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</div>

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</div>

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----<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

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</div>

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From daniel@olddog.co.uk  Thu Aug  6 09:40:48 2009
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Hello CCAMP'rs,

The draft minutes for our IETF-75 meeting have been uploaded to:

http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/75/minutes/ccamp.html

Please suggest any corrections by August 21, 2009. 

Br, Dan. 


From gregb@grotto-networking.com  Fri Aug  7 09:54:41 2009
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] WSON Impairment scenarios -- control plane perspective...
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Hi Giovanni, I'm not sure about the terminology either. At IETF we tent 
use the term opaque, at ITU-T SG15 Q6 they use the term "black links". 
Whatever we end up using we need to define it clearly.  See comments on 
your comments below.

Cheers

Greg

Giovanni Martinelli wrote:
> Hi Greg,
>
> thx for the text, very useful. Few initial comments hoping discussion 
> will continue with other contribution as well.
>
> first a terminology consideration about opaque, Don't have a better 
> suggestion right now but not sure the term usage.  "Opaque"  is the 
> path validation procedure (if any) respect to the control plane?
>
> plus few others comments inline
>
>
>
> Greg Bernstein wrote:
>> Hi folks, there seemed to be some questions about where we could get 
>> started with WSON impairments. On reviewing the Impairment Framework 
>> draft, it seems like we've got a lot of bases covered but we aren't 
>> explicit about one could get started dealing with optical impairments.
>>
>> Below is a short analysis with somewhat "loose" language. Some of 
>> this could potentially be useful in a liaison to ITU-T Q6.
>>
>> Comments welcome.
>>
>> Greg B.
>>
>>
>>   *Impairment Estimation Categories and the Control Plane*
>>
>>
>>     Opaque WSON with respect to Impairments
>>
>> In this case we are given a list of qualified paths between a desired 
>> source and destination of a connection. These paths may come with 
>> wavelength restrictions due to impairments (not related to wavelength 
>> availability in RWA process).
>>
>> We do not know anything about how these viable paths are computed. We 
>> don't know and shouldn't care if the impairments are linear or 
>> non-linear.
>>
>> We are assured that if we select one of these paths and assign a 
>> wavelength to it then the establishment of this connection will not 
>> impact previously established connections in the network.
>> Example usage: a single vendor supplies WDM line systems and ROADMs. 
>> We wish to use a GMPLS control plane and perhaps PCE based 
>> optimization but not all paths through the network are viable due to 
>> impairments.
>>
>> ITU-T Q6 implications: My guess it that the Q6 folks would not care 
>> about this case since this doesn't really call for standardization of 
>> impairment parameters or procedures.
>>
>> CCAMP implications: This seems like a very practical case for the 
>> control plane. We would only want to standardize the way in which we 
>> obtain the list of qualified paths. */No impairment information model 
>> is needed here/*. An architecture reflecting this option is already 
>> in the Impairment Framework draft.
>>
> Agree with all the above. The only point is that probably the fact of 
> having a set of qualified path does not preclude the need of having 
> impairment considerations as well (sort of mixed solutions).
>
> I  mean, your text above does not preclude it but I want just to make 
> the point clear.
--> I'm not quite sure of your "mixed" scenario here.  How would a 
"mixed scenario" work?
>
>
>>     Partially Opaque WSON
>>
>> In this case the impairment behavior of certain elements of the WSON 
>> can be suitably modeled via standardized techniques, e.g., G.680 
>> while other parts of the WSON are not. The entity responsible for 
>> these other parts of the WSON imports the characteristics of these 
>> "open" elements and uses them as part of a viable path computation 
>> process, the details of which are opaque to the control plane.
>>
>> We are assured that if we select one of these paths and assign a 
>> wavelength to it then the establishment of this connection will not 
>> impact previously established connections in the network.
>>
> I would apply here the same as below "this is beyond a purview of a 
> standard organization to specify".
-->  There are some aspects of this scenario that are amenable to 
standards other are not. There is can be an info model for the portion 
modeled by standards, along with a standard way of conveying that 
information to the "opaque system" that performs the computations.
>
>> Example usage: The characteristics of the WDM line systems are not 
>> specified, but well characterized ROADMs are used in the WSON. The 
>> WDM line system vendor uses these characteristics in its 
>> internal/proprietary viable path computations.
>>
>> Q6 and CCAMP implications: here we would be using a standardize 
>> information model for the "open" WSON network elements. How the other 
>> "opaque" network elements are characterized and how viable path 
>> computation is carried out is out of scope of either SDO. Such an 
>> approach takes advantage of standardized impairment models where it can.
>>
> just to clarify "standardized impairment model", are you referring to 
> G.680 or something else?
--> Yes, G.680 and related specifications. Currently G.680 models ROADMs 
but not line systems so this scenario is compatible with G.680 as it 
stands today.
>
>
>> Implications for CCAMP would be an impairment information model and 
>> an interface for requesting/receiving qualified paths. An 
>> architecture that can support this case is already contained in the 
>> WSON impairment framework draft.
>>
>>
>>     Linearly Approximated Open WSON Impairment Model
>>
>> In this case the impairment aspects of the WSON can be well 
>> approximated by standardized (or to be standardized) "linear" models 
>> such as those found in G.680. From these models the viability of 
>> paths can be evaluated.
>>
>> We are assured that if we select one of these paths and assign a 
>> wavelength to it then the establishment of this connection will not 
>> impact previously established connections in the network.
>> Implications for Q6: Current impairment models such as recent version 
>> of G.680 do not include models for WDM line systems.
>>
> why this? Isn't a line system a  de-generated case of an ROADM  (1 
> ingress, 1  egress)?
---> Probably better directed at Q6 than me. I pretty much agree with 
you. I just know what the current version of G.680 says :-(    .
>
> thx
> G
>
>> Implications for CCAMP: An impairment information model is needed. 
>> Distributed impairment validation (via signaling) could be possible.
>>
>> General comments: it would seem to be the responsibility of the WSON 
>> network designer to insure that the network is operating in a 
>> "region" where these linear approximations for impairments are valid. 
>> This seems beyond the purview of a standards organization to specify.
>>
>> An architecture to accommodate this case is contained in the WSON 
>> impairment framework draft.
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> ===================================================
>> Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
>>
>>   
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>   
>

-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Protocol Extensions for Multi-Layer and Multi-Region Networks (MLN/MRN)
	Author(s)	: D. Papadimitriou, M. Vigoureux, K. Shiomoto, D. Brungard, J. Le Roux
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-mln-extensions-07.txt
	Pages		: 22
	Date		: 2009-8-10
	
There are specific requirements for the support of networks 
comprising Label Switching Routers (LSR) participating in different 
data plane switching layers controlled by a single Generalized Multi 
Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) control plane instance, referred to 
as GMPLS Multi-Layer Networks/Multi-Region Networks (MLN/MRN).  
        
This document defines extensions to GMPLS routing and signaling 
protocols so as to support the operation of GMPLS Multi-Layer/Multi-
Region Networks. It covers the elements of a single GMPLS control 
plane instance controlling multiple LSP regions or layers within a 
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Thread-Topic: RE: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
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From: "Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai)" <lizhong.jin@nsn.com>
To: "ext zhangguoying" <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>, <ccamp@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
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Hi all:
What I need to clarify from my side is that abandoning a RFC is not =
preferred in any case. If we can develop a backward solution by merging =
draft-ceccarellifuxh and draft-zhang, why don't we go in this way.
=20
BR
Lizhong Jin

________________________________

From: ext zhangguoying [mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn]=20
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 22:03
To: Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai); ccamp@ietf.org
Cc: zhangfatai@huawei.com; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; dbrungard@att.com; =
lberger@labn.net; diego.caviglia@ericsson.com; =
daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com; xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn
Subject: Re: RE: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension


Hi all,
=20
As many experts have explained, the label encoding with bit map in =
draft-zhang is  surely a better way to achieve extensibility and =
scalability of OTN lable. =20
=20
The main issue that bit map label format might have is the backword =
compatibility. I think we might need to start an survey among the OTN =
service providers in the mailing list,  and see if there are any OTN =
networks deployed with GMPLS RFC4328 lable format.=20
=20
If there're no real deployment, we don't need to consider the =
compatability problem;
=20
If there're some deployment, compatability problem need to be solved . =
An easy way might be adding an label version bit in the label format, or =
some other solutions may be searched out.
=20
=20
best regards,
Guoying Zhang
=20
=20
=20
2009-08-04=20
________________________________

zhangguoying=20
________________________________

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai)=20
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-08-04  13:34:24=20
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ccamp@ietf.org=20
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA zhangfatai@huawei.com; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; =
dbrungard@att.com; lberger@labn.net; diego.caviglia@ericsson.com; =
daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com; zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; =
xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn=20
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension=20
Hi Fatai and all:
I agree with the issues of excessive number of labels if using the same
label concept of RFC4328. By using bit map for label encoding is a good
idea. And from my understanding,
draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00 can merge this bit
map idea if Fatai agree.
=20
For backward compatibility, we can not assume that RFC4328 is not
deployed unless we can provide some kind of survey report. So currently
the right assumption is that RFC4328 has been deployed, and backward
compatibity should be considered.
=20
Best Regards
Lizhong Jin
=20
----------------------------------------------------------------------
=20
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:33:56 +0200
From: "BELOTTI SERGIO"  <Sergio.Belotti@alcatel-lucent.it >
Subject: [CCAMP] R: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
forEvolutive OTN
To: "Fatai"  <zhangfatai@huawei.com >,  <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn >,
<dbrungard@att.com >,  <lberger@labn.net >,
<diego.caviglia@ericsson.com >,
<daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com >,
<zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn >,
<xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn >
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Message-ID:
<3F44186D7141E247972EAC6655B0A29101FA7A56@FRVELSMBS21.ad2.ad.alcatel.com
>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
=20
Dear Fatai and all,
=20
=20
=20
We agree on the major points raised by Fatai as general issue to be
solved in the context of extension needed to cope with new containers
defined in ITU  q11 context, in addition to handling ODU multiplexing
scenarios in existing OTN.
=20
There are two basic points that brings to the need to update the RFC4328
anyway.
=20
=20
=20
1) the present RFC does not permit the link based negotiation  for time
slot allocation . No information about tributary port numbers is present
and only in case we have "single layer" , no multiplexing LO -- > HO you
can apply . So this is a lack against the original G.709 even without
considering G.709 Am3 .
=20
=20
=20
2) Scalability: The extension required in the context of new OTN with
the introduction of ODU0, ODU4, and above all ODUflex , required a real
modifications of the structure of the label to avoid real big size of
number of labels to transmit offloading signalling session. Extension
based on RFC4328 logic do not scale when ODU-flex is used. Large ODU
flex containers will generate
=20
an excessive number of labels (in principle up to 80 per link) causing
problems with the size of the RSVP-TE message.
=20
=20
=20
This two points together call to the need to change something in RFC.
=20
Backward compatibility aspects, present in all the drafts, are surely to
be considered and if there are single layer systems deployed using
RFC4328 this should be grandfathered.
=20
=20
=20
Best Regards
=20
=20
=20
Sergio
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
Sergio Belotti
=20
=20
=20
CTO Optics Division
=20
Alcatel-Lucent
=20
=20
=20
+39 039 6863033
=20
+39 039 6863590
=20
=20
=20
________________________________
=20
Da: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di
Fatai
Inviato: mercoled? 29 luglio 2009 18.33
A: fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; dbrungard@att.com; lberger@labn.net;
diego.caviglia@ericsson.com; daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com;
zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Oggetto: Re: [CCAMP] Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
forEvolutive OTN
=20
=20
=20
Hi all,
=20
=20
=20
To support the current verison of G.709, we think the label format
defined in RFC4328 need to be re-defined anyway. The new OTN label
format should support the whole ODU sets, not only the ODU1, 2, and 3,
but also ODU0, ODU4, even ODUFlex. The following three aspects should be
considered carefully:
=20
=20
=20
1) The extensibility of the label format is the first thing we should
consider. With the development of OTN technology, RFC4328 label format
style needs to be extended to support the new bitrate ODU (eg. ODU5,
6...). By the end, we may need keep extending the label formats.
Managing lots of label format may cause big trouble, so we need one-shot
label format for the evolving OTN. =20
=20
=20
=20
2) Scalability is another key issue. RFC4328 style format may result in
big size of the total labels, which definitely increase the burden of
the signaling. An efficient approach is needed to carry the same label
information but with less amount of the data, bitmap style is the right
way to go.
=20
=20
=20
3) For backward compatibility, if there are no implementations for
RFC4328 (or if there are no deployments it is desirable to deprecate
even if it is uncomfortable for existing implementations), it is very
safe to deprecate the old definition, and an extensible, efficient and
scalable solution could be helpful. The label defined in draft-zhang
does not overwrite RFC4328, it can allow the old definition to continue
to exist.
=20
=20
=20
Hope this can clarify your concern.
=20
=20
=20
Authors of draft-zhang
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
----- Original Message -----=20
=20
From: fu.xihua@zte.com.cn=20
=20
To: dbrungard@att.com ; lberger@labn.net ; zhangfatai@huawei.com
; diego.caviglia@ericsson.com ; daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com=20
=20
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org=20
=20
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 5:33 PM
=20
Subject: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension for
Evolutive OTN
=20
=20
=20
Hi Fatai and All,=20
We have presented the following two document  in the CCAMP
morning session. But we have no more time to further discuss GMPLS
extension for evolutive OTN=20
draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00.txt
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evo
l-otn-00 > =20
draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-01.txt
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-01.txt
> =20
We have a couple of comments and questions for the draft-zhang.=20
(1) draft-zhang defined the extensions including what has been
done in RFC4328 (i.e., ODU1, ODU2 and ODU3).=20
      draft-ceccarellifuxh defined new Gneralized Label only for
new application (i.e., ODU0, 1.25G ODU1, 1.25G ODU2, 1.25G ODU3, ODU2e,
ODU3e1, ODU3e2, ODUflex and ODU4).=20
      draft-ceccarellifuxh is only a supplement of RFC4328.=20
      How can we used RFC4328 and draft-zhang ?      =20
      Any way, if we need to update an previous RFC, we should
assume that it has been deployed, not asking if someone did or not.=20
(2) Do you really want to remove NMC from the Traffic
Parameters?=20
      If you do that, I think we have to abandon RFC4328.=20
(3) The compatibility consideration in draft-zhang.=20
   We don't think the extensions in draft-zhang can coexist with
RFC4328.=20
   You point out "we can just do some translation or mapping in
the new nodes".=20
   But before the translation or mapping, you have to know the
Generalized Label Format.  =20
   We concern about:  =20
   i)  How does one node know the Generalized Label format,
especially for ODU1, ODU2 and ODU3 base on your solution?    =20
        It may depend on the capability of the adjacent network
element.=20
   ii) But how can the control plane know the adjacent network
element's capability without discovery mechanism?=20
       You should know that GMPLS signaling extension should be
independent on the discovery mechanism and the configuration of
management plane.=20
   iii) The control plane don't need to know the G.709(2003/03)
or G.709 Amendment3 network element?=20
     =20
     In a word, we think it can not do the translation and
mapping. So we can not get the compatibility with RFC4328 in
draft-zhang.=20
 (4) The Generalized Label in draft-zhang=20
    - managing a variable length label could be a mess.=20
    - draft-zhang uses a first part of the label which has fixed
values and then a variable number of bit that is the bitmap.=20
       The bitmap can be long from 0 to 80 bits depending on the
signal type.=20
    - the value of the bitmap is not independent but depends on
the values of two previous fields (ODUk and ODUj) and becomes reserved
in case of K=3DJ=20
    - a bitmap label have not been used nor in SDH and not in
WSON where a fixed label (4 bytes) is used.=20
Xihua Fu=20
ZTE=20
=20
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_______________________________________________
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CCAMP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
=20
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End of CCAMP Digest, Vol 14, Issue 26
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<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana">
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140113102-12082009><FONT face=3Dverdana>Hi=20
all:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140113102-12082009>What I need to clarify from my =
side&nbsp;is=20
that abandoning a RFC is not preferred in any case. If we can develop a =
backward=20
solution by merging draft-ceccarellifuxh and draft-zhang, why don't we =
go in=20
this way.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140113102-12082009></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140113102-12082009><FONT =
face=3Dverdana>BR</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140113102-12082009>Lizhong Jin</SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma><B>From:</B> ext zhangguoying=20
[mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August =
04, 2009=20
22:03<BR><B>To:</B> Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai);=20
ccamp@ietf.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> zhangfatai@huawei.com; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; =

dbrungard@att.com; lberger@labn.net; diego.caviglia@ericsson.com;=20
daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com; =
xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn<BR><B>Subject:</B>=20
Re: RE: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling =
Extension<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#000080>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#000080>Hi all,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080>As many experts have explained, the label =
encoding with=20
bit map in draft-zhang is&nbsp; surely&nbsp;a better way to=20
achieve&nbsp;extensibility&nbsp;and&nbsp;scalability of OTN=20
lable.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#000080>The&nbsp;main =
issue&nbsp;that&nbsp;bit=20
map&nbsp;label format&nbsp;might have&nbsp;is the&nbsp;backword=20
compatibility.&nbsp;I&nbsp;think&nbsp;we might need to&nbsp;start an =
survey=20
among the OTN service providers in the mailing list,&nbsp; and see if =
there are=20
any OTN networks deployed with GMPLS RFC4328&nbsp;lable format. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#000080></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#000080>If there're no real =
deployment,=20
we&nbsp;don't need to consider the compatability problem;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#000080><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT=20
color=3D#000080></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#000080><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT =
color=3D#000080>If=20
there're some deployment, compatability problem need to be&nbsp;solved . =
An easy=20
way&nbsp;might be&nbsp;adding an&nbsp;label&nbsp;version bit&nbsp;in the =
label=20
format, or some other solutions may be searched =
out.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080>best regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080>Guoying Zhang</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#000080></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#000080></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#c0c0c0>2009-08-04 </FONT></DIV><FONT =
face=3DVerdana=20
color=3D#000080>
<HR style=3D"WIDTH: 122px; HEIGHT: 2px" align=3Dleft SIZE=3D2>
</FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#c0c0c0><SPAN>zhangguoying</SPAN>=20
</FONT></DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#000080>
<HR>
</FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana><STRONG>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA</STRONG> Jin, =
Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai)=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT =
face=3DVerdana><STRONG>=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA</STRONG> =
2009-08-04&nbsp; 13:34:24=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana><STRONG>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA</STRONG> =
ccamp@ietf.org </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana><STRONG>=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA</STRONG> =
zhangfatai@huawei.com;=20
fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; dbrungard@att.com; lberger@labn.net;=20
diego.caviglia@ericsson.com; daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com;=20
zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana><STRONG>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA</STRONG> RE: =
Discussion about the GMPLS=20
Signaling Extension </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>
<DIV>Hi&nbsp;Fatai&nbsp;and&nbsp;all:</DIV>
<DIV>I&nbsp;agree&nbsp;with&nbsp;the&nbsp;issues&nbsp;of&nbsp;excessive&n=
bsp;number&nbsp;of&nbsp;labels&nbsp;if&nbsp;using&nbsp;the&nbsp;same</DIV=
>
<DIV>label&nbsp;concept&nbsp;of&nbsp;RFC4328.&nbsp;By&nbsp;using&nbsp;bit=
&nbsp;map&nbsp;for&nbsp;label&nbsp;encoding&nbsp;is&nbsp;a&nbsp;good</DIV=
>
<DIV>idea.&nbsp;And&nbsp;from&nbsp;my&nbsp;understanding,</DIV>
<DIV>draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00&nbsp;can&nbsp;m=
erge&nbsp;this&nbsp;bit</DIV>
<DIV>map&nbsp;idea&nbsp;if&nbsp;Fatai&nbsp;agree.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>For&nbsp;backward&nbsp;compatibility,&nbsp;we&nbsp;can&nbsp;not&nbsp=
;assume&nbsp;that&nbsp;RFC4328&nbsp;is&nbsp;not</DIV>
<DIV>deployed&nbsp;unless&nbsp;we&nbsp;can&nbsp;provide&nbsp;some&nbsp;ki=
nd&nbsp;of&nbsp;survey&nbsp;report.&nbsp;So&nbsp;currently</DIV>
<DIV>the&nbsp;right&nbsp;assumption&nbsp;is&nbsp;that&nbsp;RFC4328&nbsp;h=
as&nbsp;been&nbsp;deployed,&nbsp;and&nbsp;backward</DIV>
<DIV>compatibity&nbsp;should&nbsp;be&nbsp;considered.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Best&nbsp;Regards</DIV>
<DIV>Lizhong&nbsp;Jin</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------=
--</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Message:&nbsp;1</DIV>
<DIV>Date:&nbsp;Thu,&nbsp;30&nbsp;Jul&nbsp;2009&nbsp;11:33:56&nbsp;+0200<=
/DIV>
<DIV>From:&nbsp;"BELOTTI&nbsp;SERGIO"&nbsp; =
&lt;Sergio.Belotti@alcatel-lucent.it=20
&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>Subject:&nbsp;[CCAMP]&nbsp;R:&nbsp;Discussion&nbsp;about&nbsp;the&nb=
sp;GMPLS&nbsp;Signaling&nbsp;Extension</DIV>
<DIV>forEvolutive&nbsp;OTN</DIV>
<DIV>To:&nbsp;"Fatai"&nbsp; &lt;zhangfatai@huawei.com &gt;,&nbsp;=20
&lt;fu.xihua@zte.com.cn &gt;,</DIV>
<DIV>&lt;dbrungard@att.com &gt;,&nbsp; &lt;lberger@labn.net &gt;,</DIV>
<DIV>&lt;diego.caviglia@ericsson.com &gt;,</DIV>
<DIV>&lt;daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com &gt;,</DIV>
<DIV>&lt;zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn &gt;,</DIV>
<DIV>&lt;xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn &gt;</DIV>
<DIV>Cc:&nbsp;ccamp@ietf.org</DIV>
<DIV>Message-ID:</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&lt;3F44186D7141E247972EAC6655B0A29101FA7A56@FRVELSMBS21.ad2.ad.alca=
tel.com</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Content-Type:&nbsp;text/plain;&nbsp;charset=3D"iso-8859-1"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Dear&nbsp;Fatai&nbsp;and&nbsp;all,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>We&nbsp;agree&nbsp;on&nbsp;the&nbsp;major&nbsp;points&nbsp;raised&nb=
sp;by&nbsp;Fatai&nbsp;as&nbsp;general&nbsp;issue&nbsp;to&nbsp;be</DIV>
<DIV>solved&nbsp;in&nbsp;the&nbsp;context&nbsp;of&nbsp;extension&nbsp;nee=
ded&nbsp;to&nbsp;cope&nbsp;with&nbsp;new&nbsp;containers</DIV>
<DIV>defined&nbsp;in&nbsp;ITU&nbsp;&nbsp;q11&nbsp;context,&nbsp;in&nbsp;a=
ddition&nbsp;to&nbsp;handling&nbsp;ODU&nbsp;multiplexing</DIV>
<DIV>scenarios&nbsp;in&nbsp;existing&nbsp;OTN.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>There&nbsp;are&nbsp;two&nbsp;basic&nbsp;points&nbsp;that&nbsp;brings=
&nbsp;to&nbsp;the&nbsp;need&nbsp;to&nbsp;update&nbsp;the&nbsp;RFC4328</DI=
V>
<DIV>anyway.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>1)&nbsp;the&nbsp;present&nbsp;RFC&nbsp;does&nbsp;not&nbsp;permit&nbs=
p;the&nbsp;link&nbsp;based&nbsp;negotiation&nbsp;&nbsp;for&nbsp;time</DIV=
>
<DIV>slot&nbsp;allocation&nbsp;.&nbsp;No&nbsp;information&nbsp;about&nbsp=
;tributary&nbsp;port&nbsp;numbers&nbsp;is&nbsp;present</DIV>
<DIV>and&nbsp;only&nbsp;in&nbsp;case&nbsp;we&nbsp;have&nbsp;"single&nbsp;=
layer"&nbsp;,&nbsp;no&nbsp;multiplexing&nbsp;LO&nbsp;--=20
&gt;&nbsp;HO&nbsp;you</DIV>
<DIV>can&nbsp;apply&nbsp;.&nbsp;So&nbsp;this&nbsp;is&nbsp;a&nbsp;lack&nbs=
p;against&nbsp;the&nbsp;original&nbsp;G.709&nbsp;even&nbsp;without</DIV>
<DIV>considering&nbsp;G.709&nbsp;Am3&nbsp;.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>2)&nbsp;Scalability:&nbsp;The&nbsp;extension&nbsp;required&nbsp;in&n=
bsp;the&nbsp;context&nbsp;of&nbsp;new&nbsp;OTN&nbsp;with</DIV>
<DIV>the&nbsp;introduction&nbsp;of&nbsp;ODU0,&nbsp;ODU4,&nbsp;and&nbsp;ab=
ove&nbsp;all&nbsp;ODUflex&nbsp;,&nbsp;required&nbsp;a&nbsp;real</DIV>
<DIV>modifications&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;structure&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;=
label&nbsp;to&nbsp;avoid&nbsp;real&nbsp;big&nbsp;size&nbsp;of</DIV>
<DIV>number&nbsp;of&nbsp;labels&nbsp;to&nbsp;transmit&nbsp;offloading&nbs=
p;signalling&nbsp;session.&nbsp;Extension</DIV>
<DIV>based&nbsp;on&nbsp;RFC4328&nbsp;logic&nbsp;do&nbsp;not&nbsp;scale&nb=
sp;when&nbsp;ODU-flex&nbsp;is&nbsp;used.&nbsp;Large&nbsp;ODU</DIV>
<DIV>flex&nbsp;containers&nbsp;will&nbsp;generate</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>an&nbsp;excessive&nbsp;number&nbsp;of&nbsp;labels&nbsp;(in&nbsp;prin=
ciple&nbsp;up&nbsp;to&nbsp;80&nbsp;per&nbsp;link)&nbsp;causing</DIV>
<DIV>problems&nbsp;with&nbsp;the&nbsp;size&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;RSVP-TE&=
nbsp;message.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This&nbsp;two&nbsp;points&nbsp;together&nbsp;call&nbsp;to&nbsp;the&n=
bsp;need&nbsp;to&nbsp;change&nbsp;something&nbsp;in&nbsp;RFC.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Backward&nbsp;compatibility&nbsp;aspects,&nbsp;present&nbsp;in&nbsp;=
all&nbsp;the&nbsp;drafts,&nbsp;are&nbsp;surely&nbsp;to</DIV>
<DIV>be&nbsp;considered&nbsp;and&nbsp;if&nbsp;there&nbsp;are&nbsp;single&=
nbsp;layer&nbsp;systems&nbsp;deployed&nbsp;using</DIV>
<DIV>RFC4328&nbsp;this&nbsp;should&nbsp;be&nbsp;grandfathered.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Best&nbsp;Regards</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Sergio</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Sergio&nbsp;Belotti</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>CTO&nbsp;Optics&nbsp;Division</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Alcatel-Lucent</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>+39&nbsp;039&nbsp;6863033</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>+39&nbsp;039&nbsp;6863590</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>________________________________</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Da:&nbsp;ccamp-bounces@ietf.org&nbsp;[mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]=
&nbsp;Per&nbsp;conto&nbsp;di</DIV>
<DIV>Fatai</DIV>
<DIV>Inviato:&nbsp;mercoled?&nbsp;29&nbsp;luglio&nbsp;2009&nbsp;18.33</DI=
V>
<DIV>A:&nbsp;fu.xihua@zte.com.cn;&nbsp;dbrungard@att.com;&nbsp;lberger@la=
bn.net;</DIV>
<DIV>diego.caviglia@ericsson.com;&nbsp;daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com;</=
DIV>
<DIV>zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn;&nbsp;xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn</DIV>
<DIV>Cc:&nbsp;ccamp@ietf.org</DIV>
<DIV>Oggetto:&nbsp;Re:&nbsp;[CCAMP]&nbsp;Discussion&nbsp;about&nbsp;the&n=
bsp;GMPLS&nbsp;Signaling&nbsp;Extension</DIV>
<DIV>forEvolutive&nbsp;OTN</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Hi&nbsp;all,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>To&nbsp;support&nbsp;the&nbsp;current&nbsp;verison&nbsp;of&nbsp;G.70=
9,&nbsp;we&nbsp;think&nbsp;the&nbsp;label&nbsp;format</DIV>
<DIV>defined&nbsp;in&nbsp;RFC4328&nbsp;need&nbsp;to&nbsp;be&nbsp;re-defin=
ed&nbsp;anyway.&nbsp;The&nbsp;new&nbsp;OTN&nbsp;label</DIV>
<DIV>format&nbsp;should&nbsp;support&nbsp;the&nbsp;whole&nbsp;ODU&nbsp;se=
ts,&nbsp;not&nbsp;only&nbsp;the&nbsp;ODU1,&nbsp;2,&nbsp;and&nbsp;3,</DIV>=

<DIV>but&nbsp;also&nbsp;ODU0,&nbsp;ODU4,&nbsp;even&nbsp;ODUFlex.&nbsp;The=
&nbsp;following&nbsp;three&nbsp;aspects&nbsp;should&nbsp;be</DIV>
<DIV>considered&nbsp;carefully:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>1)&nbsp;The&nbsp;extensibility&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;label&nbsp;form=
at&nbsp;is&nbsp;the&nbsp;first&nbsp;thing&nbsp;we&nbsp;should</DIV>
<DIV>consider.&nbsp;With&nbsp;the&nbsp;development&nbsp;of&nbsp;OTN&nbsp;=
technology,&nbsp;RFC4328&nbsp;label&nbsp;format</DIV>
<DIV>style&nbsp;needs&nbsp;to&nbsp;be&nbsp;extended&nbsp;to&nbsp;support&=
nbsp;the&nbsp;new&nbsp;bitrate&nbsp;ODU&nbsp;(eg.&nbsp;ODU5,</DIV>
<DIV>6...).&nbsp;By&nbsp;the&nbsp;end,&nbsp;we&nbsp;may&nbsp;need&nbsp;ke=
ep&nbsp;extending&nbsp;the&nbsp;label&nbsp;formats.</DIV>
<DIV>Managing&nbsp;lots&nbsp;of&nbsp;label&nbsp;format&nbsp;may&nbsp;caus=
e&nbsp;big&nbsp;trouble,&nbsp;so&nbsp;we&nbsp;need&nbsp;one-shot</DIV>
<DIV>label&nbsp;format&nbsp;for&nbsp;the&nbsp;evolving&nbsp;OTN.&nbsp;&nb=
sp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>2)&nbsp;Scalability&nbsp;is&nbsp;another&nbsp;key&nbsp;issue.&nbsp;R=
FC4328&nbsp;style&nbsp;format&nbsp;may&nbsp;result&nbsp;in</DIV>
<DIV>big&nbsp;size&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;total&nbsp;labels,&nbsp;which&nb=
sp;definitely&nbsp;increase&nbsp;the&nbsp;burden&nbsp;of</DIV>
<DIV>the&nbsp;signaling.&nbsp;An&nbsp;efficient&nbsp;approach&nbsp;is&nbs=
p;needed&nbsp;to&nbsp;carry&nbsp;the&nbsp;same&nbsp;label</DIV>
<DIV>information&nbsp;but&nbsp;with&nbsp;less&nbsp;amount&nbsp;of&nbsp;th=
e&nbsp;data,&nbsp;bitmap&nbsp;style&nbsp;is&nbsp;the&nbsp;right</DIV>
<DIV>way&nbsp;to&nbsp;go.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>3)&nbsp;For&nbsp;backward&nbsp;compatibility,&nbsp;if&nbsp;there&nbs=
p;are&nbsp;no&nbsp;implementations&nbsp;for</DIV>
<DIV>RFC4328&nbsp;(or&nbsp;if&nbsp;there&nbsp;are&nbsp;no&nbsp;deployment=
s&nbsp;it&nbsp;is&nbsp;desirable&nbsp;to&nbsp;deprecate</DIV>
<DIV>even&nbsp;if&nbsp;it&nbsp;is&nbsp;uncomfortable&nbsp;for&nbsp;existi=
ng&nbsp;implementations),&nbsp;it&nbsp;is&nbsp;very</DIV>
<DIV>safe&nbsp;to&nbsp;deprecate&nbsp;the&nbsp;old&nbsp;definition,&nbsp;=
and&nbsp;an&nbsp;extensible,&nbsp;efficient&nbsp;and</DIV>
<DIV>scalable&nbsp;solution&nbsp;could&nbsp;be&nbsp;helpful.&nbsp;The&nbs=
p;label&nbsp;defined&nbsp;in&nbsp;draft-zhang</DIV>
<DIV>does&nbsp;not&nbsp;overwrite&nbsp;RFC4328,&nbsp;it&nbsp;can&nbsp;all=
ow&nbsp;the&nbsp;old&nbsp;definition&nbsp;to&nbsp;continue</DIV>
<DIV>to&nbsp;exist.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Hope&nbsp;this&nbsp;can&nbsp;clarify&nbsp;your&nbsp;concern.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Authors&nbsp;of&nbsp;draft-zhang</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>-----&nbsp;Original&nbsp;Message&nbsp;-----&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>From:&nbsp;fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>To:&nbsp;dbrungard@att.com&nbsp;;&nbsp;lberger@labn.net&nbsp;;&nbsp;=
zhangfatai@huawei.com</DIV>
<DIV>;&nbsp;diego.caviglia@ericsson.com&nbsp;;&nbsp;daniele.ceccarelli@er=
icsson.com&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Cc:&nbsp;ccamp@ietf.org&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Sent:&nbsp;Tuesday,&nbsp;July&nbsp;28,&nbsp;2009&nbsp;5:33&nbsp;PM</=
DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Subject:&nbsp;Discussion&nbsp;about&nbsp;the&nbsp;GMPLS&nbsp;Signali=
ng&nbsp;Extension&nbsp;for</DIV>
<DIV>Evolutive&nbsp;OTN</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Hi&nbsp;Fatai&nbsp;and&nbsp;All,&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>We&nbsp;have&nbsp;presented&nbsp;the&nbsp;following&nbsp;two&nbsp;do=
cument&nbsp;&nbsp;in&nbsp;the&nbsp;CCAMP</DIV>
<DIV>morning&nbsp;session.&nbsp;But&nbsp;we&nbsp;have&nbsp;no&nbsp;more&n=
bsp;time&nbsp;to&nbsp;further&nbsp;discuss&nbsp;GMPLS</DIV>
<DIV>extension&nbsp;for&nbsp;evolutive&nbsp;OTN&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00.txt</DIV>
<DIV>&lt;<A=20
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-f=
or-evo">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-f=
or-evo</A></DIV>
<DIV>l-otn-00 &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-01.txt</DIV>
<DIV>&lt;<A=20
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-=
01.txt">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-=
01.txt</A></DIV>
<DIV>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>We&nbsp;have&nbsp;a&nbsp;couple&nbsp;of&nbsp;comments&nbsp;and&nbsp;=
questions&nbsp;for&nbsp;the&nbsp;draft-zhang.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>(1)&nbsp;draft-zhang&nbsp;defined&nbsp;the&nbsp;extensions&nbsp;incl=
uding&nbsp;what&nbsp;has&nbsp;been</DIV>
<DIV>done&nbsp;in&nbsp;RFC4328&nbsp;(i.e.,&nbsp;ODU1,&nbsp;ODU2&nbsp;and&=
nbsp;ODU3).&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;draft-ceccarellifuxh&nbsp;define=
d&nbsp;new&nbsp;Gneralized&nbsp;Label&nbsp;only&nbsp;for</DIV>
<DIV>new&nbsp;application&nbsp;(i.e.,&nbsp;ODU0,&nbsp;1.25G&nbsp;ODU1,&nb=
sp;1.25G&nbsp;ODU2,&nbsp;1.25G&nbsp;ODU3,&nbsp;ODU2e,</DIV>
<DIV>ODU3e1,&nbsp;ODU3e2,&nbsp;ODUflex&nbsp;and&nbsp;ODU4).&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;draft-ceccarellifuxh&nbsp;is&nbs=
p;only&nbsp;a&nbsp;supplement&nbsp;of&nbsp;RFC4328.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;How&nbsp;can&nbsp;we&nbsp;used&n=
bsp;RFC4328&nbsp;and&nbsp;draft-zhang&nbsp;?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Any&nbsp;way,&nbsp;if&nbsp;we&nb=
sp;need&nbsp;to&nbsp;update&nbsp;an&nbsp;previous&nbsp;RFC,&nbsp;we&nbsp;=
should</DIV>
<DIV>assume&nbsp;that&nbsp;it&nbsp;has&nbsp;been&nbsp;deployed,&nbsp;not&=
nbsp;asking&nbsp;if&nbsp;someone&nbsp;did&nbsp;or&nbsp;not.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>(2)&nbsp;Do&nbsp;you&nbsp;really&nbsp;want&nbsp;to&nbsp;remove&nbsp;=
NMC&nbsp;from&nbsp;the&nbsp;Traffic</DIV>
<DIV>Parameters?&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;If&nbsp;you&nbsp;do&nbsp;that,&n=
bsp;I&nbsp;think&nbsp;we&nbsp;have&nbsp;to&nbsp;abandon&nbsp;RFC4328.&nbs=
p;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>(3)&nbsp;The&nbsp;compatibility&nbsp;consideration&nbsp;in&nbsp;draf=
t-zhang.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;We&nbsp;don't&nbsp;think&nbsp;the&nbsp;extensions&=
nbsp;in&nbsp;draft-zhang&nbsp;can&nbsp;coexist&nbsp;with</DIV>
<DIV>RFC4328.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;You&nbsp;point&nbsp;out&nbsp;"we&nbsp;can&nbsp;jus=
t&nbsp;do&nbsp;some&nbsp;translation&nbsp;or&nbsp;mapping&nbsp;in</DIV>
<DIV>the&nbsp;new&nbsp;nodes".&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;But&nbsp;before&nbsp;the&nbsp;translation&nbsp;or&=
nbsp;mapping,&nbsp;you&nbsp;have&nbsp;to&nbsp;know&nbsp;the</DIV>
<DIV>Generalized&nbsp;Label&nbsp;Format.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;We&nbsp;concern&nbsp;about:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV=
>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;i)&nbsp;&nbsp;How&nbsp;does&nbsp;one&nbsp;node&nbs=
p;know&nbsp;the&nbsp;Generalized&nbsp;Label&nbsp;format,</DIV>
<DIV>especially&nbsp;for&nbsp;ODU1,&nbsp;ODU2&nbsp;and&nbsp;ODU3&nbsp;bas=
e&nbsp;on&nbsp;your&nbsp;solution?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It&nbsp;may&nbsp;dep=
end&nbsp;on&nbsp;the&nbsp;capability&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;adjacent&nbsp;=
network</DIV>
<DIV>element.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;ii)&nbsp;But&nbsp;how&nbsp;can&nbsp;the&nbsp;contr=
ol&nbsp;plane&nbsp;know&nbsp;the&nbsp;adjacent&nbsp;network</DIV>
<DIV>element's&nbsp;capability&nbsp;without&nbsp;discovery&nbsp;mechanism=
?&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;You&nbsp;should&nbsp;know&=
nbsp;that&nbsp;GMPLS&nbsp;signaling&nbsp;extension&nbsp;should&nbsp;be</D=
IV>
<DIV>independent&nbsp;on&nbsp;the&nbsp;discovery&nbsp;mechanism&nbsp;and&=
nbsp;the&nbsp;configuration&nbsp;of</DIV>
<DIV>management&nbsp;plane.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;iii)&nbsp;The&nbsp;control&nbsp;plane&nbsp;don't&n=
bsp;need&nbsp;to&nbsp;know&nbsp;the&nbsp;G.709(2003/03)</DIV>
<DIV>or&nbsp;G.709&nbsp;Amendment3&nbsp;network&nbsp;element?&nbsp;</DIV>=

<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;In&nbsp;a&nbsp;word,&nbsp;we&nbsp;thin=
k&nbsp;it&nbsp;can&nbsp;not&nbsp;do&nbsp;the&nbsp;translation&nbsp;and</D=
IV>
<DIV>mapping.&nbsp;So&nbsp;we&nbsp;can&nbsp;not&nbsp;get&nbsp;the&nbsp;co=
mpatibility&nbsp;with&nbsp;RFC4328&nbsp;in</DIV>
<DIV>draft-zhang.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;(4)&nbsp;The&nbsp;Generalized&nbsp;Label&nbsp;in&nbsp;draft-zh=
ang&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-&nbsp;managing&nbsp;a&nbsp;variable&nbsp;le=
ngth&nbsp;label&nbsp;could&nbsp;be&nbsp;a&nbsp;mess.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-&nbsp;draft-zhang&nbsp;uses&nbsp;a&nbsp;fir=
st&nbsp;part&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;label&nbsp;which&nbsp;has&nbsp;fixed</=
DIV>
<DIV>values&nbsp;and&nbsp;then&nbsp;a&nbsp;variable&nbsp;number&nbsp;of&n=
bsp;bit&nbsp;that&nbsp;is&nbsp;the&nbsp;bitmap.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The&nbsp;bitmap&nbsp;can&n=
bsp;be&nbsp;long&nbsp;from&nbsp;0&nbsp;to&nbsp;80&nbsp;bits&nbsp;dependin=
g&nbsp;on&nbsp;the</DIV>
<DIV>signal&nbsp;type.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-&nbsp;the&nbsp;value&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;=
bitmap&nbsp;is&nbsp;not&nbsp;independent&nbsp;but&nbsp;depends&nbsp;on</D=
IV>
<DIV>the&nbsp;values&nbsp;of&nbsp;two&nbsp;previous&nbsp;fields&nbsp;(ODU=
k&nbsp;and&nbsp;ODUj)&nbsp;and&nbsp;becomes&nbsp;reserved</DIV>
<DIV>in&nbsp;case&nbsp;of&nbsp;K=3DJ&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-&nbsp;a&nbsp;bitmap&nbsp;label&nbsp;have&nb=
sp;not&nbsp;been&nbsp;used&nbsp;nor&nbsp;in&nbsp;SDH&nbsp;and&nbsp;not&nb=
sp;in</DIV>
<DIV>WSON&nbsp;where&nbsp;a&nbsp;fixed&nbsp;label&nbsp;(4&nbsp;bytes)&nbs=
p;is&nbsp;used.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Xihua&nbsp;Fu&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>ZTE&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>--------------&nbsp;next&nbsp;part&nbsp;--------------</DIV>
<DIV>An&nbsp;HTML&nbsp;attachment&nbsp;was&nbsp;scrubbed...</DIV>
<DIV>URL:</DIV>
<DIV>&lt;<A=20
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ccamp/attachments/20090730/b=
fcec50">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ccamp/attachments/20090730/b=
fcec50</A></DIV>
<DIV>4/attachment.htm &gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>_______________________________________________</DIV>
<DIV>CCAMP&nbsp;mailing&nbsp;list</DIV>
<DIV>CCAMP@ietf.org</DIV>
<DIV>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>End&nbsp;of&nbsp;CCAMP&nbsp;Digest,&nbsp;Vol&nbsp;14,&nbsp;Issue&nbs=
p;26</DIV>
<DIV>*************************************</DIV></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTM=
L>

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Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] WSON Impairment scenarios -- control plane perspective...
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Hi,

thx for your reply

Greg Bernstein wrote:
>
> Hi Giovanni, I'm not sure about the terminology either. At IETF we tent
> use the term opaque, at ITU-T SG15 Q6 they use the term "black links".
> Whatever we end up using we need to define it clearly. 
>
ok, let see if anyone has comments

> See comments on
> your comments below.
>
> Cheers
>
> Greg
>
> Giovanni Martinelli wrote:
> > Hi Greg,
> >
> > thx for the text, very useful. Few initial comments hoping discussion
> > will continue with other contribution as well.
> >
> > first a terminology consideration about opaque, Don't have a better
> > suggestion right now but not sure the term usage.  "Opaque"  is the
> > path validation procedure (if any) respect to the control plane?
> >
> > plus few others comments inline
> >
> >
> >
> > Greg Bernstein wrote:
> >> Hi folks, there seemed to be some questions about where we could get
> >> started with WSON impairments. On reviewing the Impairment Framework
> >> draft, it seems like we've got a lot of bases covered but we aren't
> >> explicit about one could get started dealing with optical impairments.
> >>
> >> Below is a short analysis with somewhat "loose" language. Some of
> >> this could potentially be useful in a liaison to ITU-T Q6.
> >>
> >> Comments welcome.
> >>
> >> Greg B.
> >>
> >>
> >>   *Impairment Estimation Categories and the Control Plane*
> >>
> >>
> >>     Opaque WSON with respect to Impairments
> >>
> >> In this case we are given a list of qualified paths between a desired
> >> source and destination of a connection. These paths may come with
> >> wavelength restrictions due to impairments (not related to wavelength
> >> availability in RWA process).
> >>
> >> We do not know anything about how these viable paths are computed. We
> >> don't know and shouldn't care if the impairments are linear or
> >> non-linear.
> >>
> >> We are assured that if we select one of these paths and assign a
> >> wavelength to it then the establishment of this connection will not
> >> impact previously established connections in the network.
> >> Example usage: a single vendor supplies WDM line systems and ROADMs.
> >> We wish to use a GMPLS control plane and perhaps PCE based
> >> optimization but not all paths through the network are viable due to
> >> impairments.
> >>
> >> ITU-T Q6 implications: My guess it that the Q6 folks would not care
> >> about this case since this doesn't really call for standardization of
> >> impairment parameters or procedures.
> >>
> >> CCAMP implications: This seems like a very practical case for the
> >> control plane. We would only want to standardize the way in which we
> >> obtain the list of qualified paths. */No impairment information model
> >> is needed here/*. An architecture reflecting this option is already
> >> in the Impairment Framework draft.
> >>
> > Agree with all the above. The only point is that probably the fact of
> > having a set of qualified path does not preclude the need of having
> > impairment considerations as well (sort of mixed solutions).
> >
> > I  mean, your text above does not preclude it but I want just to make
> > the point clear.
> --> I'm not quite sure of your "mixed" scenario here.  How would a
> "mixed scenario" work?
>
Well in principle yes could work: you have some path fully designed off 
line and while network evolve you may need to add other lightpath(s).
How to deal with this I suppose is a network operator choice and I would 
not preclude it.


> >
> >
> >>     Partially Opaque WSON
> >>
> >> In this case the impairment behavior of certain elements of the WSON
> >> can be suitably modeled via standardized techniques, e.g., G.680
> >> while other parts of the WSON are not. The entity responsible for
> >> these other parts of the WSON imports the characteristics of these
> >> "open" elements and uses them as part of a viable path computation
> >> process, the details of which are opaque to the control plane.
> >>
> >> We are assured that if we select one of these paths and assign a
> >> wavelength to it then the establishment of this connection will not
> >> impact previously established connections in the network.
> >>
> > I would apply here the same as below "this is beyond a purview of a
> > standard organization to specify".
> -->  There are some aspects of this scenario that are amenable to
> standards other are not. There is can be an info model for the portion
> modeled by standards, along with a standard way of conveying that
> information to the "opaque system" that performs the computations.
> >
> >> Example usage: The characteristics of the WDM line systems are not
> >> specified, but well characterized ROADMs are used in the WSON. The
> >> WDM line system vendor uses these characteristics in its
> >> internal/proprietary viable path computations.
> >>
> >> Q6 and CCAMP implications: here we would be using a standardize
> >> information model for the "open" WSON network elements. How the other
> >> "opaque" network elements are characterized and how viable path
> >> computation is carried out is out of scope of either SDO. Such an
> >> approach takes advantage of standardized impairment models where it 
> can.
> >>
> > just to clarify "standardized impairment model", are you referring to
> > G.680 or something else?
> --> Yes, G.680 and related specifications. Currently G.680 models ROADMs
> but not line systems so this scenario is compatible with G.680 as it
> stands today.
>
ok
>
> >
> >
> >> Implications for CCAMP would be an impairment information model and
> >> an interface for requesting/receiving qualified paths. An
> >> architecture that can support this case is already contained in the
> >> WSON impairment framework draft.
> >>
> >>
> >>     Linearly Approximated Open WSON Impairment Model
> >>
> >> In this case the impairment aspects of the WSON can be well
> >> approximated by standardized (or to be standardized) "linear" models
> >> such as those found in G.680. From these models the viability of
> >> paths can be evaluated.
> >>
> >> We are assured that if we select one of these paths and assign a
> >> wavelength to it then the establishment of this connection will not
> >> impact previously established connections in the network.
> >> Implications for Q6: Current impairment models such as recent version
> >> of G.680 do not include models for WDM line systems.
> >>
> > why this? Isn't a line system a  de-generated case of an ROADM  (1
> > ingress, 1  egress)?
> ---> Probably better directed at Q6 than me. I pretty much agree with
> you. I just know what the current version of G.680 says :-(    .
>
fair enough, but yes probably worth clarify it with Q6

Cheers
G

> >
> > thx
> > G
> >
> >> Implications for CCAMP: An impairment information model is needed.
> >> Distributed impairment validation (via signaling) could be possible.
> >>
> >> General comments: it would seem to be the responsibility of the WSON
> >> network designer to insure that the network is operating in a
> >> "region" where these linear approximations for impairments are valid.
> >> This seems beyond the purview of a standards organization to specify.
> >>
> >> An architecture to accommodate this case is contained in the WSON
> >> impairment framework draft.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> ===================================================
> >> Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
> >>
> >>  
> >> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> CCAMP mailing list
> >> CCAMP@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> >>  
> >
>
> --
> ===================================================
> Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
>
>

From gregb@grotto-networking.com  Wed Aug 12 09:58:45 2009
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Subject: [CCAMP] WSON Impairments liaison to ITU-T Q6?
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Hi Deborah, Lou and CCAMPers interested in WSON and impairments.
We had a number of questions come up in Stockholm that probably are 
better answered by Q6. For example: there are a multitude of optical 
parameters present in various ITU-T drafts including G.680 is there some 
reduced essential subset that Q6 would recommend for approximate linear 
path qualification?

On the other side of things we had some discussions on the various roles 
the control plane can take with respect to impairment (see lengthy CCAMP 
e-mail from me dated 7/28/2009).

Do we need to help the chairs prepare a liaison to Q6? If so what 
content can we include?

Cheers

Greg B.

-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



From frederick.bedford@gmail.com  Thu Aug 13 12:10:08 2009
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From: Frederick Robinson <frederick.bedford@gmail.com>
To: "Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai)" <lizhong.jin@nsn.com>
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Cc: ccamp@ietf.org, ext zhangguoying <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>, xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
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Hi all:

I Agree with Lizhong.

We took several years to standardize the GMPLS extension for ODU1, ODU2 and
ODU3.
Technology of OTN is developing. We also need some time to standardize the
extension for the new application. We can not forbid vendor/carrier to
deploy the OTN based on RFC4328 at any time. We should keep them from
waiting for the new extension. Further more, any extension can not
completely promise to fit any new application in the future. So we have to
deal with it step by step. There is some backward compatibility
considerations and solution in draft-ceccarellifuxh. There is also a
extensible lable format in draft-zhang. Why should we take a long time to
survey it among the OTN service providers. Two documents should be merged a=
s
soon as possible.

Bedford

**
2009/8/12 Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai) <lizhong.jin@nsn.com>

>  Hi all:
> What I need to clarify from my side is that abandoning a RFC is not
> preferred in any case. If we can develop a backward solution by merging
> draft-ceccarellifuxh and draft-zhang, why don't we go in this way.
>
> BR
> Lizhong Jin
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* ext zhangguoying [mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 04, 2009 22:03
> *To:* Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai); ccamp@ietf.org
> *Cc:* zhangfatai@huawei.com; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; dbrungard@att.com;
> lberger@labn.net; diego.caviglia@ericsson.com;
> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com; xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn
> *Subject:* Re: RE: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
>
>  Hi all,
>
> As many experts have explained, the label encoding with bit map in
> draft-zhang is  surely a better way to achieve extensibility and scalabil=
ity
> of OTN lable.
>
> The main issue that bit map label format might have is the backword
> compatibility. I think we might need to start an survey among the OTN
> service providers in the mailing list,  and see if there are any OTN
> networks deployed with GMPLS RFC4328 lable format.
>
> If there're no real deployment, we don't need to consider the compatabili=
ty
> problem;
>
> If there're some deployment, compatability problem need to be solved . An
> easy way might be adding an label version bit in the label format, or som=
e
> other solutions may be searched out.
>
>
> best regards,
> Guoying Zhang
>
>
>
> 2009-08-04
> ------------------------------
>  zhangguoying
> ------------------------------
>  *=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA* Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai)
> *=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA* 2009-08-04  13:34:24
> *=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA* ccamp@ietf.org
> *=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA* zhangfatai@huawei.com; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; dbrungar=
d@att.com;
> lberger@labn.net; diego.caviglia@ericsson.com;
> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com; zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn;
> xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn
> *=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA* RE: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
>  Hi Fatai and all:
> I agree with the issues of excessive number of labels if using the same
> label concept of RFC4328. By using bit map for label encoding is a good
> idea. And from my understanding,
> draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00 can merge this bit
> map idea if Fatai agree.
>
> For backward compatibility, we can not assume that RFC4328 is not
> deployed unless we can provide some kind of survey report. So currently
> the right assumption is that RFC4328 has been deployed, and backward
> compatibity should be considered.
>
> Best Regards
> Lizhong Jin
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:33:56 +0200
> From: "BELOTTI SERGIO"  <Sergio.Belotti@alcatel-lucent.it >
> Subject: [CCAMP] R: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
> forEvolutive OTN
> To: "Fatai"  <zhangfatai@huawei.com >,  <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn >,
> <dbrungard@att.com >,  <lberger@labn.net >,
> <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com >,
> <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com >,
> <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn >,
> <xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn >
> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
> Message-ID:
>  <3F44186D7141E247972EAC6655B0A29101FA7A56@FRVELSMBS21.ad2.ad.alcatel.com
> >
>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear Fatai and all,
>
>
>
> We agree on the major points raised by Fatai as general issue to be
> solved in the context of extension needed to cope with new containers
> defined in ITU  q11 context, in addition to handling ODU multiplexing
> scenarios in existing OTN.
>
> There are two basic points that brings to the need to update the RFC4328
> anyway.
>
>
>
> 1) the present RFC does not permit the link based negotiation  for time
> slot allocation . No information about tributary port numbers is present
> and only in case we have "single layer" , no multiplexing LO -- > HO you
> can apply . So this is a lack against the original G.709 even without
> considering G.709 Am3 .
>
>
>
> 2) Scalability: The extension required in the context of new OTN with
> the introduction of ODU0, ODU4, and above all ODUflex , required a real
> modifications of the structure of the label to avoid real big size of
> number of labels to transmit offloading signalling session. Extension
> based on RFC4328 logic do not scale when ODU-flex is used. Large ODU
> flex containers will generate
>
> an excessive number of labels (in principle up to 80 per link) causing
> problems with the size of the RSVP-TE message.
>
>
>
> This two points together call to the need to change something in RFC.
>
> Backward compatibility aspects, present in all the drafts, are surely to
> be considered and if there are single layer systems deployed using
> RFC4328 this should be grandfathered.
>
>
>
> Best Regards
>
>
>
> Sergio
>
>
>
>
>
> Sergio Belotti
>
>
>
> CTO Optics Division
>
> Alcatel-Lucent
>
>
>
> +39 039 6863033
>
> +39 039 6863590
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Da: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di
> Fatai
> Inviato: mercoled? 29 luglio 2009 18.33
> A: fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; dbrungard@att.com; lberger@labn.net;
> diego.caviglia@ericsson.com; daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com;
> zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn
> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
> Oggetto: Re: [CCAMP] Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
> forEvolutive OTN
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> To support the current verison of G.709, we think the label format
> defined in RFC4328 need to be re-defined anyway. The new OTN label
> format should support the whole ODU sets, not only the ODU1, 2, and 3,
> but also ODU0, ODU4, even ODUFlex. The following three aspects should be
> considered carefully:
>
>
>
> 1) The extensibility of the label format is the first thing we should
> consider. With the development of OTN technology, RFC4328 label format
> style needs to be extended to support the new bitrate ODU (eg. ODU5,
> 6...). By the end, we may need keep extending the label formats.
> Managing lots of label format may cause big trouble, so we need one-shot
> label format for the evolving OTN.
>
>
>
> 2) Scalability is another key issue. RFC4328 style format may result in
> big size of the total labels, which definitely increase the burden of
> the signaling. An efficient approach is needed to carry the same label
> information but with less amount of the data, bitmap style is the right
> way to go.
>
>
>
> 3) For backward compatibility, if there are no implementations for
> RFC4328 (or if there are no deployments it is desirable to deprecate
> even if it is uncomfortable for existing implementations), it is very
> safe to deprecate the old definition, and an extensible, efficient and
> scalable solution could be helpful. The label defined in draft-zhang
> does not overwrite RFC4328, it can allow the old definition to continue
> to exist.
>
>
>
> Hope this can clarify your concern.
>
>
>
> Authors of draft-zhang
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: fu.xihua@zte.com.cn
>
> To: dbrungard@att.com ; lberger@labn.net ; zhangfatai@huawei.com
> ; diego.caviglia@ericsson.com ; daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>
> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 5:33 PM
>
> Subject: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension for
> Evolutive OTN
>
>
>
>  Hi Fatai and All,
>  We have presented the following two document  in the CCAMP
> morning session. But we have no more time to further discuss GMPLS
> extension for evolutive OTN
> draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00.txt
> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evo
> l-otn-00 >
> draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-01.txt
> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-01.txt
> >
>  We have a couple of comments and questions for the draft-zhang.
> (1) draft-zhang defined the extensions including what has been
> done in RFC4328 (i.e., ODU1, ODU2 and ODU3).
>       draft-ceccarellifuxh defined new Gneralized Label only for
> new application (i.e., ODU0, 1.25G ODU1, 1.25G ODU2, 1.25G ODU3, ODU2e,
> ODU3e1, ODU3e2, ODUflex and ODU4).
>       draft-ceccarellifuxh is only a supplement of RFC4328.
>       How can we used RFC4328 and draft-zhang ?
>       Any way, if we need to update an previous RFC, we should
> assume that it has been deployed, not asking if someone did or not.
>  (2) Do you really want to remove NMC from the Traffic
> Parameters?
>       If you do that, I think we have to abandon RFC4328.
>  (3) The compatibility consideration in draft-zhang.
>    We don't think the extensions in draft-zhang can coexist with
> RFC4328.
>    You point out "we can just do some translation or mapping in
> the new nodes".
>    But before the translation or mapping, you have to know the
> Generalized Label Format.
>    We concern about:
>    i)  How does one node know the Generalized Label format,
> especially for ODU1, ODU2 and ODU3 base on your solution?
>         It may depend on the capability of the adjacent network
> element.
>    ii) But how can the control plane know the adjacent network
> element's capability without discovery mechanism?
>        You should know that GMPLS signaling extension should be
> independent on the discovery mechanism and the configuration of
> management plane.
>    iii) The control plane don't need to know the G.709(2003/03)
> or G.709 Amendment3 network element?
>
>      In a word, we think it can not do the translation and
> mapping. So we can not get the compatibility with RFC4328 in
> draft-zhang.
>   (4) The Generalized Label in draft-zhang
>     - managing a variable length label could be a mess.
>     - draft-zhang uses a first part of the label which has fixed
> values and then a variable number of bit that is the bitmap.
>        The bitmap can be long from 0 to 80 bits depending on the
> signal type.
>     - the value of the bitmap is not independent but depends on
> the values of two previous fields (ODUk and ODUj) and becomes reserved
> in case of K=3DJ
>     - a bitmap label have not been used nor in SDH and not in
> WSON where a fixed label (4 bytes) is used.
>  Xihua Fu
> ZTE
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>
>
> End of CCAMP Digest, Vol 14, Issue 26
> *************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>
>

--000e0cd250881711ab04710aae05
Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all:<br><br>I Agree with Lizhong. <br><br>We took several years to stand=
ardize the GMPLS extension for ODU1, ODU2 and ODU3. <br>Technology of OTN i=
s developing. We also need some time to standardize the extension for the n=
ew application. We can not forbid vendor/carrier to deploy the OTN based on=
 RFC4328 at any time. We should keep them from waiting for the new extensio=
n. Further more, any extension can not completely promise to fit any new ap=
plication in the future. So we have to deal with it step by step. <font><fo=
nt face=3D"Verdana">There is some backward compatibility considerations and=
 solution in draft-ceccarellifuxh</font></font>. There is also a extensible=
 lable format in draft-zhang. Why should we take a long time to survey it a=
mong the OTN service providers. Two documents should be merged as soon as p=
ossible.<br>
<br>Bedford<br><br><b></b><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/12 Jin, Liz=
hong (NSN - CN/Shanghai) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lizhong.ji=
n@nsn.com">lizhong.jin@nsn.com</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">






<div style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: verdana;">
<div><span><font face=3D"verdana">Hi=20
all:</font></span></div>
<div><span>What I need to clarify from my side&nbsp;is=20
that abandoning a RFC is not preferred in any case. If we can develop a bac=
kward=20
solution by merging draft-ceccarellifuxh and draft-zhang, why don&#39;t we =
go in=20
this way.</span></div>
<div><span></span>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span><font face=3D"verdana">BR</font></span></div>
<div><span>Lizhong Jin</span></div><br>
<div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left" lang=3D"en-us">
<hr>
<font face=3D"Tahoma"><b>From:</b> ext zhangguoying=20
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn" target=3D"_blank">=
zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 04, 200=
9=20
22:03<div class=3D"im"><br><b>To:</b> Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai);=20
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br><=
/div><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">=
zhangfatai@huawei.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn" target=3D=
"_blank">fu.xihua@zte.com.cn</a>;=20
<a href=3D"mailto:dbrungard@att.com" target=3D"_blank">dbrungard@att.com</a=
>; <a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net" target=3D"_blank">lberger@labn.net</=
a>; <a href=3D"mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">diego.=
caviglia@ericsson.com</a>;=20
<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">daniel=
e.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn"=
 target=3D"_blank">xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn</a><div class=3D"im"><br><b>Su=
bject:</b>=20
Re: RE: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension<br></div></font><br>=
</div><div class=3D"im">
<div></div>
<div><font color=3D"#000080" face=3D"Verdana">
<div><font color=3D"#000080" face=3D"Verdana">Hi all,</font></div>
<div><font color=3D"#000080"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font color=3D"#000080">As many experts have explained, the label enco=
ding with=20
bit map in draft-zhang is&nbsp; surely&nbsp;a better way to=20
achieve&nbsp;extensibility&nbsp;and&nbsp;scalability of OTN=20
lable.&nbsp;&nbsp;</font></div>
<div><font color=3D"#000080"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font color=3D"#000080" face=3D"Verdana">The&nbsp;main issue&nbsp;that=
&nbsp;bit=20
map&nbsp;label format&nbsp;might have&nbsp;is the&nbsp;backword=20
compatibility.&nbsp;I&nbsp;think&nbsp;we might need to&nbsp;start an survey=
=20
among the OTN service providers in the mailing list,&nbsp; and see if there=
 are=20
any OTN networks deployed with GMPLS RFC4328&nbsp;lable format. </font></di=
v>
<div><font color=3D"#000080" face=3D"Verdana"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font color=3D"#000080" face=3D"Verdana">If there&#39;re no real deplo=
yment,=20
we&nbsp;don&#39;t need to consider the compatability problem;</font></div>
<div><font color=3D"#000080" face=3D"Verdana"><font color=3D"#000000"><font=
 color=3D"#000080"></font></font></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font color=3D"#000080" face=3D"Verdana"><font color=3D"#000000"><font=
 color=3D"#000080">If=20
there&#39;re some deployment, compatability problem need to be&nbsp;solved =
. An easy=20
way&nbsp;might be&nbsp;adding an&nbsp;label&nbsp;version bit&nbsp;in the la=
bel=20
format, or some other solutions may be searched out.</font></font></font></=
div>
<div><font color=3D"#000080"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font color=3D"#000080"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font color=3D"#000080">best regards,</font></div>
<div><font color=3D"#000080">Guoying Zhang</font></div>
<div><font color=3D"#000080"></font>&nbsp;</div></font></div>
<div><font color=3D"#000080" face=3D"Verdana"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font color=3D"#000080" face=3D"Verdana"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font color=3D"#c0c0c0" face=3D"Verdana">2009-08-04 </font></div><font=
 color=3D"#000080" face=3D"Verdana">
<hr style=3D"width: 122px; height: 2px;" align=3D"left" size=3D"2">
</font>
<div><font color=3D"#c0c0c0" face=3D"Verdana"><span>zhangguoying</span>=20
</font></div><font color=3D"#000080" face=3D"Verdana">
<hr>
</font>
<div><font face=3D"Verdana"><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA</b> Jin, Lizhong (N=
SN - CN/Shanghai)=20
</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Verdana"><b>=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA</b> 2009-08-0=
4&nbsp; 13:34:24=20
</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Verdana"><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA</b> <a href=3D"mail=
to:ccamp@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ccamp@ietf.org</a> </font></div>
</div><div><font face=3D"Verdana"><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA</b> <a href=3D"mail=
to:zhangfatai@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">zhangfatai@huawei.com</a>;=20
<a href=3D"mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blank">fu.xihua@zte.com.c=
n</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:dbrungard@att.com" target=3D"_blank">dbrungard@att=
.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net" target=3D"_blank">lberger@lab=
n.net</a>;=20
<a href=3D"mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">diego.cavi=
glia@ericsson.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a>;=20
<a href=3D"mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn" target=3D"_blank">zhangguo=
ying@mail.ritt.com.cn</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn" tar=
get=3D"_blank">xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn</a> </font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Verdana"><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA</b> RE: Discussion about =
the GMPLS=20
Signaling Extension </font></div><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">
<div><font face=3D"Verdana"></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Verdana">
<div>Hi&nbsp;Fatai&nbsp;and&nbsp;all:</div>
<div>I&nbsp;agree&nbsp;with&nbsp;the&nbsp;issues&nbsp;of&nbsp;excessive&nbs=
p;number&nbsp;of&nbsp;labels&nbsp;if&nbsp;using&nbsp;the&nbsp;same</div>
<div>label&nbsp;concept&nbsp;of&nbsp;RFC4328.&nbsp;By&nbsp;using&nbsp;bit&n=
bsp;map&nbsp;for&nbsp;label&nbsp;encoding&nbsp;is&nbsp;a&nbsp;good</div>
<div>idea.&nbsp;And&nbsp;from&nbsp;my&nbsp;understanding,</div>
<div>draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00&nbsp;can&nbsp;mer=
ge&nbsp;this&nbsp;bit</div>
<div>map&nbsp;idea&nbsp;if&nbsp;Fatai&nbsp;agree.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>For&nbsp;backward&nbsp;compatibility,&nbsp;we&nbsp;can&nbsp;not&nbsp;a=
ssume&nbsp;that&nbsp;RFC4328&nbsp;is&nbsp;not</div>
<div>deployed&nbsp;unless&nbsp;we&nbsp;can&nbsp;provide&nbsp;some&nbsp;kind=
&nbsp;of&nbsp;survey&nbsp;report.&nbsp;So&nbsp;currently</div>
<div>the&nbsp;right&nbsp;assumption&nbsp;is&nbsp;that&nbsp;RFC4328&nbsp;has=
&nbsp;been&nbsp;deployed,&nbsp;and&nbsp;backward</div>
<div>compatibity&nbsp;should&nbsp;be&nbsp;considered.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Best&nbsp;Regards</div>
<div>Lizhong&nbsp;Jin</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>----------------------------------------------------------------------=
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Message:&nbsp;1</div>
<div>Date:&nbsp;Thu,&nbsp;30&nbsp;Jul&nbsp;2009&nbsp;11:33:56&nbsp;+0200</d=
iv>
<div>From:&nbsp;&quot;BELOTTI&nbsp;SERGIO&quot;&nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:Sergio.Belotti@alcatel-lucent.it" target=3D"_blank">Sergio.Belotti@alcatel=
-lucent.it</a>=20
&gt;</div>
<div>Subject:&nbsp;[CCAMP]&nbsp;R:&nbsp;Discussion&nbsp;about&nbsp;the&nbsp=
;GMPLS&nbsp;Signaling&nbsp;Extension</div>
<div>forEvolutive&nbsp;OTN</div>
<div>To:&nbsp;&quot;Fatai&quot;&nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zhangfatai@huaw=
ei.com" target=3D"_blank">zhangfatai@huawei.com</a> &gt;,&nbsp;=20
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blank">fu.xihua@zte.c=
om.cn</a> &gt;,</div>
<div>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dbrungard@att.com" target=3D"_blank">dbrungard@a=
tt.com</a> &gt;,&nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net" target=3D"_b=
lank">lberger@labn.net</a> &gt;,</div>
<div>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">d=
iego.caviglia@ericsson.com</a> &gt;,</div>
<div>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a> &gt;,</div>
<div>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn" target=3D"_blank"=
>zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn</a> &gt;,</div>
<div>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn" target=3D"_blank">xuy=
unbin@mail.ritt.com.cn</a> &gt;</div>
<div>Cc:&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ccamp@iet=
f.org</a></div>
<div>Message-ID:</div>
<div></div>
<div>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:3F44186D7141E247972EAC6655B0A29101FA7A56@FRVELSM=
BS21.ad2.ad.alcatel.com" target=3D"_blank">3F44186D7141E247972EAC6655B0A291=
01FA7A56@FRVELSMBS21.ad2.ad.alcatel.com</a></div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div></div>
<div>Content-Type:&nbsp;text/plain;&nbsp;charset=3D&quot;iso-8859-1&quot;</=
div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Dear&nbsp;Fatai&nbsp;and&nbsp;all,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>We&nbsp;agree&nbsp;on&nbsp;the&nbsp;major&nbsp;points&nbsp;raised&nbsp=
;by&nbsp;Fatai&nbsp;as&nbsp;general&nbsp;issue&nbsp;to&nbsp;be</div>
<div>solved&nbsp;in&nbsp;the&nbsp;context&nbsp;of&nbsp;extension&nbsp;neede=
d&nbsp;to&nbsp;cope&nbsp;with&nbsp;new&nbsp;containers</div>
<div>defined&nbsp;in&nbsp;ITU&nbsp;&nbsp;q11&nbsp;context,&nbsp;in&nbsp;add=
ition&nbsp;to&nbsp;handling&nbsp;ODU&nbsp;multiplexing</div>
<div>scenarios&nbsp;in&nbsp;existing&nbsp;OTN.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>There&nbsp;are&nbsp;two&nbsp;basic&nbsp;points&nbsp;that&nbsp;brings&n=
bsp;to&nbsp;the&nbsp;need&nbsp;to&nbsp;update&nbsp;the&nbsp;RFC4328</div>
<div>anyway.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>1)&nbsp;the&nbsp;present&nbsp;RFC&nbsp;does&nbsp;not&nbsp;permit&nbsp;=
the&nbsp;link&nbsp;based&nbsp;negotiation&nbsp;&nbsp;for&nbsp;time</div>
<div>slot&nbsp;allocation&nbsp;.&nbsp;No&nbsp;information&nbsp;about&nbsp;t=
ributary&nbsp;port&nbsp;numbers&nbsp;is&nbsp;present</div>
<div>and&nbsp;only&nbsp;in&nbsp;case&nbsp;we&nbsp;have&nbsp;&quot;single&nb=
sp;layer&quot;&nbsp;,&nbsp;no&nbsp;multiplexing&nbsp;LO&nbsp;--=20
&gt;&nbsp;HO&nbsp;you</div>
<div>can&nbsp;apply&nbsp;.&nbsp;So&nbsp;this&nbsp;is&nbsp;a&nbsp;lack&nbsp;=
against&nbsp;the&nbsp;original&nbsp;G.709&nbsp;even&nbsp;without</div>
<div>considering&nbsp;G.709&nbsp;Am3&nbsp;.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>2)&nbsp;Scalability:&nbsp;The&nbsp;extension&nbsp;required&nbsp;in&nbs=
p;the&nbsp;context&nbsp;of&nbsp;new&nbsp;OTN&nbsp;with</div>
<div>the&nbsp;introduction&nbsp;of&nbsp;ODU0,&nbsp;ODU4,&nbsp;and&nbsp;abov=
e&nbsp;all&nbsp;ODUflex&nbsp;,&nbsp;required&nbsp;a&nbsp;real</div>
<div>modifications&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;structure&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;la=
bel&nbsp;to&nbsp;avoid&nbsp;real&nbsp;big&nbsp;size&nbsp;of</div>
<div>number&nbsp;of&nbsp;labels&nbsp;to&nbsp;transmit&nbsp;offloading&nbsp;=
signalling&nbsp;session.&nbsp;Extension</div>
<div>based&nbsp;on&nbsp;RFC4328&nbsp;logic&nbsp;do&nbsp;not&nbsp;scale&nbsp=
;when&nbsp;ODU-flex&nbsp;is&nbsp;used.&nbsp;Large&nbsp;ODU</div>
<div>flex&nbsp;containers&nbsp;will&nbsp;generate</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>an&nbsp;excessive&nbsp;number&nbsp;of&nbsp;labels&nbsp;(in&nbsp;princi=
ple&nbsp;up&nbsp;to&nbsp;80&nbsp;per&nbsp;link)&nbsp;causing</div>
<div>problems&nbsp;with&nbsp;the&nbsp;size&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;RSVP-TE&nb=
sp;message.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>This&nbsp;two&nbsp;points&nbsp;together&nbsp;call&nbsp;to&nbsp;the&nbs=
p;need&nbsp;to&nbsp;change&nbsp;something&nbsp;in&nbsp;RFC.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Backward&nbsp;compatibility&nbsp;aspects,&nbsp;present&nbsp;in&nbsp;al=
l&nbsp;the&nbsp;drafts,&nbsp;are&nbsp;surely&nbsp;to</div>
<div>be&nbsp;considered&nbsp;and&nbsp;if&nbsp;there&nbsp;are&nbsp;single&nb=
sp;layer&nbsp;systems&nbsp;deployed&nbsp;using</div>
<div>RFC4328&nbsp;this&nbsp;should&nbsp;be&nbsp;grandfathered.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Best&nbsp;Regards</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Sergio</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Sergio&nbsp;Belotti</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>CTO&nbsp;Optics&nbsp;Division</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Alcatel-Lucent</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>+39&nbsp;039&nbsp;6863033</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>+39&nbsp;039&nbsp;6863590</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>________________________________</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Da:&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">c=
camp-bounces@ietf.org</a>&nbsp;[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]&nbsp;Per&nbsp;conto&nbs=
p;di</div>
<div>Fatai</div>
<div>Inviato:&nbsp;mercoled?&nbsp;29&nbsp;luglio&nbsp;2009&nbsp;18.33</div>
<div>A:&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blank">fu.xi=
hua@zte.com.cn</a>;&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:dbrungard@att.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">dbrungard@att.com</a>;&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net" target=
=3D"_blank">lberger@labn.net</a>;</div>

<div><a href=3D"mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">diego=
.caviglia@ericsson.com</a>;&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@erics=
son.com" target=3D"_blank">daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a>;</div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn" target=3D"_blank">zha=
ngguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn</a>;&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:xuyunbin@mail.ritt.c=
om.cn" target=3D"_blank">xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn</a></div>
<div>Cc:&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ccamp@iet=
f.org</a></div>
<div>Oggetto:&nbsp;Re:&nbsp;[CCAMP]&nbsp;Discussion&nbsp;about&nbsp;the&nbs=
p;GMPLS&nbsp;Signaling&nbsp;Extension</div>
<div>forEvolutive&nbsp;OTN</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Hi&nbsp;all,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>To&nbsp;support&nbsp;the&nbsp;current&nbsp;verison&nbsp;of&nbsp;G.709,=
&nbsp;we&nbsp;think&nbsp;the&nbsp;label&nbsp;format</div>
<div>defined&nbsp;in&nbsp;RFC4328&nbsp;need&nbsp;to&nbsp;be&nbsp;re-defined=
&nbsp;anyway.&nbsp;The&nbsp;new&nbsp;OTN&nbsp;label</div>
<div>format&nbsp;should&nbsp;support&nbsp;the&nbsp;whole&nbsp;ODU&nbsp;sets=
,&nbsp;not&nbsp;only&nbsp;the&nbsp;ODU1,&nbsp;2,&nbsp;and&nbsp;3,</div>
<div>but&nbsp;also&nbsp;ODU0,&nbsp;ODU4,&nbsp;even&nbsp;ODUFlex.&nbsp;The&n=
bsp;following&nbsp;three&nbsp;aspects&nbsp;should&nbsp;be</div>
<div>considered&nbsp;carefully:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>1)&nbsp;The&nbsp;extensibility&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;label&nbsp;format=
&nbsp;is&nbsp;the&nbsp;first&nbsp;thing&nbsp;we&nbsp;should</div>
<div>consider.&nbsp;With&nbsp;the&nbsp;development&nbsp;of&nbsp;OTN&nbsp;te=
chnology,&nbsp;RFC4328&nbsp;label&nbsp;format</div>
<div>style&nbsp;needs&nbsp;to&nbsp;be&nbsp;extended&nbsp;to&nbsp;support&nb=
sp;the&nbsp;new&nbsp;bitrate&nbsp;ODU&nbsp;(eg.&nbsp;ODU5,</div>
<div>6...).&nbsp;By&nbsp;the&nbsp;end,&nbsp;we&nbsp;may&nbsp;need&nbsp;keep=
&nbsp;extending&nbsp;the&nbsp;label&nbsp;formats.</div>
<div>Managing&nbsp;lots&nbsp;of&nbsp;label&nbsp;format&nbsp;may&nbsp;cause&=
nbsp;big&nbsp;trouble,&nbsp;so&nbsp;we&nbsp;need&nbsp;one-shot</div>
<div>label&nbsp;format&nbsp;for&nbsp;the&nbsp;evolving&nbsp;OTN.&nbsp;&nbsp=
;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>2)&nbsp;Scalability&nbsp;is&nbsp;another&nbsp;key&nbsp;issue.&nbsp;RFC=
4328&nbsp;style&nbsp;format&nbsp;may&nbsp;result&nbsp;in</div>
<div>big&nbsp;size&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;total&nbsp;labels,&nbsp;which&nbsp=
;definitely&nbsp;increase&nbsp;the&nbsp;burden&nbsp;of</div>
<div>the&nbsp;signaling.&nbsp;An&nbsp;efficient&nbsp;approach&nbsp;is&nbsp;=
needed&nbsp;to&nbsp;carry&nbsp;the&nbsp;same&nbsp;label</div>
<div>information&nbsp;but&nbsp;with&nbsp;less&nbsp;amount&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&=
nbsp;data,&nbsp;bitmap&nbsp;style&nbsp;is&nbsp;the&nbsp;right</div>
<div>way&nbsp;to&nbsp;go.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>3)&nbsp;For&nbsp;backward&nbsp;compatibility,&nbsp;if&nbsp;there&nbsp;=
are&nbsp;no&nbsp;implementations&nbsp;for</div>
<div>RFC4328&nbsp;(or&nbsp;if&nbsp;there&nbsp;are&nbsp;no&nbsp;deployments&=
nbsp;it&nbsp;is&nbsp;desirable&nbsp;to&nbsp;deprecate</div>
<div>even&nbsp;if&nbsp;it&nbsp;is&nbsp;uncomfortable&nbsp;for&nbsp;existing=
&nbsp;implementations),&nbsp;it&nbsp;is&nbsp;very</div>
<div>safe&nbsp;to&nbsp;deprecate&nbsp;the&nbsp;old&nbsp;definition,&nbsp;an=
d&nbsp;an&nbsp;extensible,&nbsp;efficient&nbsp;and</div>
<div>scalable&nbsp;solution&nbsp;could&nbsp;be&nbsp;helpful.&nbsp;The&nbsp;=
label&nbsp;defined&nbsp;in&nbsp;draft-zhang</div>
<div>does&nbsp;not&nbsp;overwrite&nbsp;RFC4328,&nbsp;it&nbsp;can&nbsp;allow=
&nbsp;the&nbsp;old&nbsp;definition&nbsp;to&nbsp;continue</div>
<div>to&nbsp;exist.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Hope&nbsp;this&nbsp;can&nbsp;clarify&nbsp;your&nbsp;concern.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Authors&nbsp;of&nbsp;draft-zhang</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>-----&nbsp;Original&nbsp;Message&nbsp;-----&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>From:&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blank">fu=
.xihua@zte.com.cn</a>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>To:&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:dbrungard@att.com" target=3D"_blank">dbrung=
ard@att.com</a>&nbsp;;&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net" target=3D"_=
blank">lberger@labn.net</a>&nbsp;;&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:zhangfatai@huawei=
.com" target=3D"_blank">zhangfatai@huawei.com</a></div>

<div>;&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank=
">diego.caviglia@ericsson.com</a>&nbsp;;&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.cec=
carelli@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a>=
&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Cc:&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ccamp@iet=
f.org</a>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Sent:&nbsp;Tuesday,&nbsp;July&nbsp;28,&nbsp;2009&nbsp;5:33&nbsp;PM</di=
v>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Subject:&nbsp;Discussion&nbsp;about&nbsp;the&nbsp;GMPLS&nbsp;Signaling=
&nbsp;Extension&nbsp;for</div>
<div>Evolutive&nbsp;OTN</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div></div>
<div>Hi&nbsp;Fatai&nbsp;and&nbsp;All,&nbsp;</div>
<div></div>
<div>We&nbsp;have&nbsp;presented&nbsp;the&nbsp;following&nbsp;two&nbsp;docu=
ment&nbsp;&nbsp;in&nbsp;the&nbsp;CCAMP</div>
<div>morning&nbsp;session.&nbsp;But&nbsp;we&nbsp;have&nbsp;no&nbsp;more&nbs=
p;time&nbsp;to&nbsp;further&nbsp;discuss&nbsp;GMPLS</div>
<div>extension&nbsp;for&nbsp;evolutive&nbsp;OTN&nbsp;</div>
<div>draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00.txt</div>
<div>&lt;<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-g=
mpls-ext-for-evo" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ceccar=
ellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evo</a></div>
<div>l-otn-00 &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;</div>
<div>draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-01.txt</div>
<div>&lt;<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evol=
ving-g709-01.txt" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-=
ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-01.txt</a></div>
<div>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;</div>
<div></div>
<div>We&nbsp;have&nbsp;a&nbsp;couple&nbsp;of&nbsp;comments&nbsp;and&nbsp;qu=
estions&nbsp;for&nbsp;the&nbsp;draft-zhang.&nbsp;</div>
<div>(1)&nbsp;draft-zhang&nbsp;defined&nbsp;the&nbsp;extensions&nbsp;includ=
ing&nbsp;what&nbsp;has&nbsp;been</div>
<div>done&nbsp;in&nbsp;RFC4328&nbsp;(i.e.,&nbsp;ODU1,&nbsp;ODU2&nbsp;and&nb=
sp;ODU3).&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;draft-ceccarellifuxh&nbsp;defined&=
nbsp;new&nbsp;Gneralized&nbsp;Label&nbsp;only&nbsp;for</div>
<div>new&nbsp;application&nbsp;(i.e.,&nbsp;ODU0,&nbsp;1.25G&nbsp;ODU1,&nbsp=
;1.25G&nbsp;ODU2,&nbsp;1.25G&nbsp;ODU3,&nbsp;ODU2e,</div>
<div>ODU3e1,&nbsp;ODU3e2,&nbsp;ODUflex&nbsp;and&nbsp;ODU4).&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;draft-ceccarellifuxh&nbsp;is&nbsp;=
only&nbsp;a&nbsp;supplement&nbsp;of&nbsp;RFC4328.&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;How&nbsp;can&nbsp;we&nbsp;used&nbs=
p;RFC4328&nbsp;and&nbsp;draft-zhang&nbsp;?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Any&nbsp;way,&nbsp;if&nbsp;we&nbsp=
;need&nbsp;to&nbsp;update&nbsp;an&nbsp;previous&nbsp;RFC,&nbsp;we&nbsp;shou=
ld</div>
<div>assume&nbsp;that&nbsp;it&nbsp;has&nbsp;been&nbsp;deployed,&nbsp;not&nb=
sp;asking&nbsp;if&nbsp;someone&nbsp;did&nbsp;or&nbsp;not.&nbsp;</div>
<div></div>
<div>(2)&nbsp;Do&nbsp;you&nbsp;really&nbsp;want&nbsp;to&nbsp;remove&nbsp;NM=
C&nbsp;from&nbsp;the&nbsp;Traffic</div>
<div>Parameters?&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;If&nbsp;you&nbsp;do&nbsp;that,&nbs=
p;I&nbsp;think&nbsp;we&nbsp;have&nbsp;to&nbsp;abandon&nbsp;RFC4328.&nbsp;</=
div>
<div></div>
<div>(3)&nbsp;The&nbsp;compatibility&nbsp;consideration&nbsp;in&nbsp;draft-=
zhang.&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;We&nbsp;don&#39;t&nbsp;think&nbsp;the&nbsp;extension=
s&nbsp;in&nbsp;draft-zhang&nbsp;can&nbsp;coexist&nbsp;with</div>
<div>RFC4328.&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;You&nbsp;point&nbsp;out&nbsp;&quot;we&nbsp;can&nbsp;=
just&nbsp;do&nbsp;some&nbsp;translation&nbsp;or&nbsp;mapping&nbsp;in</div>
<div>the&nbsp;new&nbsp;nodes&quot;.&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;But&nbsp;before&nbsp;the&nbsp;translation&nbsp;or&nb=
sp;mapping,&nbsp;you&nbsp;have&nbsp;to&nbsp;know&nbsp;the</div>
<div>Generalized&nbsp;Label&nbsp;Format.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;We&nbsp;concern&nbsp;about:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;i)&nbsp;&nbsp;How&nbsp;does&nbsp;one&nbsp;node&nbsp;=
know&nbsp;the&nbsp;Generalized&nbsp;Label&nbsp;format,</div>
<div>especially&nbsp;for&nbsp;ODU1,&nbsp;ODU2&nbsp;and&nbsp;ODU3&nbsp;base&=
nbsp;on&nbsp;your&nbsp;solution?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It&nbsp;may&nbsp;depen=
d&nbsp;on&nbsp;the&nbsp;capability&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;adjacent&nbsp;netw=
ork</div>
<div>element.&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;ii)&nbsp;But&nbsp;how&nbsp;can&nbsp;the&nbsp;control=
&nbsp;plane&nbsp;know&nbsp;the&nbsp;adjacent&nbsp;network</div>
<div>element&#39;s&nbsp;capability&nbsp;without&nbsp;discovery&nbsp;mechani=
sm?&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;You&nbsp;should&nbsp;know&nb=
sp;that&nbsp;GMPLS&nbsp;signaling&nbsp;extension&nbsp;should&nbsp;be</div>
<div>independent&nbsp;on&nbsp;the&nbsp;discovery&nbsp;mechanism&nbsp;and&nb=
sp;the&nbsp;configuration&nbsp;of</div>
<div>management&nbsp;plane.&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;iii)&nbsp;The&nbsp;control&nbsp;plane&nbsp;don&#39;t=
&nbsp;need&nbsp;to&nbsp;know&nbsp;the&nbsp;G.709(2003/03)</div>
<div>or&nbsp;G.709&nbsp;Amendment3&nbsp;network&nbsp;element?&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;In&nbsp;a&nbsp;word,&nbsp;we&nbsp;think&=
nbsp;it&nbsp;can&nbsp;not&nbsp;do&nbsp;the&nbsp;translation&nbsp;and</div>
<div>mapping.&nbsp;So&nbsp;we&nbsp;can&nbsp;not&nbsp;get&nbsp;the&nbsp;comp=
atibility&nbsp;with&nbsp;RFC4328&nbsp;in</div>
<div>draft-zhang.&nbsp;</div>
<div></div>
<div>&nbsp;(4)&nbsp;The&nbsp;Generalized&nbsp;Label&nbsp;in&nbsp;draft-zhan=
g&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-&nbsp;managing&nbsp;a&nbsp;variable&nbsp;leng=
th&nbsp;label&nbsp;could&nbsp;be&nbsp;a&nbsp;mess.&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-&nbsp;draft-zhang&nbsp;uses&nbsp;a&nbsp;first=
&nbsp;part&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;label&nbsp;which&nbsp;has&nbsp;fixed</div>
<div>values&nbsp;and&nbsp;then&nbsp;a&nbsp;variable&nbsp;number&nbsp;of&nbs=
p;bit&nbsp;that&nbsp;is&nbsp;the&nbsp;bitmap.&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The&nbsp;bitmap&nbsp;can&nbs=
p;be&nbsp;long&nbsp;from&nbsp;0&nbsp;to&nbsp;80&nbsp;bits&nbsp;depending&nb=
sp;on&nbsp;the</div>
<div>signal&nbsp;type.&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-&nbsp;the&nbsp;value&nbsp;of&nbsp;the&nbsp;bi=
tmap&nbsp;is&nbsp;not&nbsp;independent&nbsp;but&nbsp;depends&nbsp;on</div>
<div>the&nbsp;values&nbsp;of&nbsp;two&nbsp;previous&nbsp;fields&nbsp;(ODUk&=
nbsp;and&nbsp;ODUj)&nbsp;and&nbsp;becomes&nbsp;reserved</div>
<div>in&nbsp;case&nbsp;of&nbsp;K=3DJ&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-&nbsp;a&nbsp;bitmap&nbsp;label&nbsp;have&nbsp=
;not&nbsp;been&nbsp;used&nbsp;nor&nbsp;in&nbsp;SDH&nbsp;and&nbsp;not&nbsp;i=
n</div>
<div>WSON&nbsp;where&nbsp;a&nbsp;fixed&nbsp;label&nbsp;(4&nbsp;bytes)&nbsp;=
is&nbsp;used.&nbsp;</div>
<div></div>
<div>Xihua&nbsp;Fu&nbsp;</div>
<div>ZTE&nbsp;</div>
<div></div>
<div></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>--------------&nbsp;next&nbsp;part&nbsp;--------------</div>
<div>An&nbsp;HTML&nbsp;attachment&nbsp;was&nbsp;scrubbed...</div>
<div>URL:</div>
<div>&lt;<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ccamp/attachments/=
20090730/bfcec50" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cc=
amp/attachments/20090730/bfcec50</a></div>
<div>4/attachment.htm &gt;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>------------------------------</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>_______________________________________________</div>
<div>CCAMP&nbsp;mailing&nbsp;list</div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">CCAMP@ietf.org</a>=
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>End&nbsp;of&nbsp;CCAMP&nbsp;Digest,&nbsp;Vol&nbsp;14,&nbsp;Issue&nbsp;=
26</div>
<div>*************************************</div></font></div></div></div></=
div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
CCAMP mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 10:07:31 +0800
From: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
To: Frederick Robinson <frederick.bedford@gmail.com>, "Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai)" <lizhong.jin@nsn.com>
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Cc: ccamp@ietf.org, ext zhangguoying <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>, xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Data Channel Status Confirmation Extensions for the Link Management Protocol
	Author(s)       : D. Li, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-confirm-data-channel-status-06.txt
	Pages           : 16
	Date            : 2009-08-14

This document defines simple additions to the Link Management 
Protocol (LMP) to provide a control plane tool that can assist in 
the location of stranded resources by allowing adjacent LSRs to 
confirm data channel statuses, and provides triggers for notifying 
the management plane if any discrepancies are found. As LMP is 
already used to verify data plane connectivity, it is considered to 
be an appropriate candidate to support this feature. 
 
 
 
Li






Expires February 2010




  [page 1] 

draft-ietf-ccamp-confirm-data-channel-status-06.txt


August 2009 
 

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document are to be interpreted as described in [RFC2119].

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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 16:08:03 +0800
From: Dan Li <danli@huawei.com>
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Hi All,

We have uploaded a new version (06) of draft-ietf-ccamp-data-channel-status, the only changes are following:
1) According to the result of discussion in IETF 75th meeting, the clarification "To use this mechanisms all nodes MUST have the extensions described in this document for compatibility." is added in section 4.4.
2) We also aware of the assignment about the number of message types. The "Trace Message" occupied the type number from 21 to 31, so we suggest that 32 to 34 could be used for data channel confirmation messages. Changes are in section 7.1.

To CCAMP co-chairs: We think this document is ready to move forward.

Thanks,

Dan



----- Original Message ----- 
From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
To: danli@huawei.com 
Cc: xuhuiying@huawei.com ; zhangfatai@huawei.com ; snigdho.bardalai@us.fujitsu.com ; julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com ; diego.caviglia@ericsson.com 
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 3:53 PM
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ccamp-confirm-data-channel-status-06



A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-ccamp-confirm-data-channel-status-06.txt has been successfuly submitted by Dan Li and posted to the IETF repository.

Filename: draft-ietf-ccamp-confirm-data-channel-status
Revision: 06
Title: Data Channel Status Confirmation Extensions for the Link Management Protocol
Creation_date: 2009-08-14
WG ID: ccamp
Number_of_pages: 16

Abstract:
This document defines simple additions to the Link Management 
Protocol (LMP) to provide a control plane tool that can assist in 
the location of stranded resources by allowing adjacent LSRs to 
confirm data channel statuses, and provides triggers for notifying 
the management plane if any discrepancies are found. As LMP is 
already used to verify data plane connectivity, it is considered to 
be an appropriate candidate to support this feature. 
 
 
 
Li






Expires February 2010




  [page 1] 

draft-ietf-ccamp-confirm-data-channel-status-06.txt


August 2009 
 

Conventions used in this document 

The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", 
"SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this 
document are to be interpreted as described in [RFC2119].
                                                                                  


The IETF Secretariat.


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Network Working Group                                             D. Li 
Internet Draft                                                    H. Xu 
Category: Standards Track                                        Huawei 
                                                            S. Bardalai 
                                                                Fujitsu 
                                                              J. Meuric 
                                                         France Telecom 
                                                            D. Caviglia 
                                                               Ericsson 
                                                                       
Expires: February 2010                                 August 14, 2009 
 
                                      
                Data Channel Status Confirmation Extensions 
                     for the Link Management Protocol 


            draft-ietf-ccamp-confirm-data-channel-status-06.txt 


Status of this Memo 

   This Internet-Draft is submitted to IETF in full conformance with the 
   provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79. 

   Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering 
   Task Force (IETF), its areas, and its working groups.  Note that 
   other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet-Drafts. 

   Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months 
   and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any 
   time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference 
   material or to cite them other than as "work in progress." 

   The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at 
   http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt. 

   The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at 
   http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html. 

Abstract 

   This document defines simple additions to the Link Management 
   Protocol (LMP) to provide a control plane tool that can assist in 
   the location of stranded resources by allowing adjacent LSRs to 
   confirm data channel statuses, and provides triggers for notifying 
   the management plane if any discrepancies are found. As LMP is 
   already used to verify data plane connectivity, it is considered to 
   be an appropriate candidate to support this feature. 
 
 
 
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draft-ietf-ccamp-confirm-data-channel-status-06.txt         August 2009 
    

Conventions used in this document 

   The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", 
   "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this 
   document are to be interpreted as described in [RFC2119]. 

Table of Contents 

    
   1. Introduction.................................................2 
   2. Problem Explanation..........................................4 
      2.1. Mismatch Caused by Manual Configuration.................4 
      2.2. Mismatch Caused by LSP Deletion.........................5 
      2.3. Failed Resources........................................5 
   3. Motivation...................................................6 
   4. Extensions to LMP............................................7 
      4.1. Confirm Data Channel Status Messages....................7 
         4.1.1. ConfirmDataChannelStatus Messages..................7 
         4.1.2. ConfirmDataChannelStatusAck Messages...............8 
         4.1.3. ConfirmDataChannelStatusNack Messages..............8 
      4.2. Data Channel Status Subobject...........................9 
      4.3. Message Construction...................................10 
      4.4. Backward Compatibility.................................10 
   5. Procedures..................................................10 
   6. Security Considerations.....................................11 
   7. IANA Considerations.........................................12 
      7.1. LMP Message Types......................................12 
      7.2. LMP Data Link Object Subobject.........................12 
   8. Acknowledgments.............................................12 
   9. References..................................................13 
      9.1. Normative References...................................13 
      9.2. Informative References.................................13 
   10. Authors' Addresses.........................................13 
   11. Full Copyright Statement...................................15 
   12. Intellectual Property Statement............................15 
   13. Disclaimer of Validity.....................................16 
    
1. Introduction 

   Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) networks are 
   constructed from Traffic Engineering (TE) links connecting Label 
   Switching Routers (LSRs). The TE links are constructed from a set of 
   data channels. In this context, a data channel corresponds to a 
   resource label in a non-packet technology (such as a timeslot or a 
   lambda).  


 
 
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   A data channel status mismatch exists if the LSR at one end of a TE 
   link believes that the data channel is assigned to carry data, but 
   the LSR at the other end does not. The term "ready to carry data" 
   means cross-connected or bound to an end-point for the receipt or 
   delivery of data. 

   Data channel mismatches cannot be detected from the TE information 
   advertised by the routing protocols [RFC4203], [RFC4205]. The 
   existence of some data channel mismatch problems may be detected by 
   a mismatch in the advertised bandwidths where bidirectional TE links 
   and bidirectional services are in use, but where unidirectional 
   services exist, or where multiple data channel mismatches occur, it 
   is not possible to detect such errors through the routing protocol-
   advertised TE information. In any case, there is no mechanism to 
   isolate the mismatches by determining which data channels are at 
   fault. 

   If a data channel mismatch exists, any attempt to use the data 
   channel for a new LSP will fail. One end of the TE link may attempt 
   to assign the TE link for use, but the other end will report the 
   data channel as unavailable when the control plane or management 
   plane attempts to assign it to an LSP. 

   Although such a situation can be resolved through the use of the 
   Acceptable Label Set object in GMPLS signaling [RFC3473], such a 
   procedure is inefficient since it may require an additional 
   signaling exchange for each LSP that is set up. When many LSPs are 
   to be set up, and when there are many data channel mismatches, such 
   inefficiencies become significant. It is desirable to avoid the 
   additional signaling overhead, and to report the problems to the 
   management plane so that they can be resolved to improve the 
   efficiency of LSP setup. 

   Correspondingly, such a mismatch situation may give rise to 
   misconnections in the data plane especially when LSPs are set up 
   using management plane operations. 

   Resources (data channels) that are in a mismatched state are often 
   described as "stranded resources". They are not in use for any LSP, 
   but they cannot be assigned for use by a new LSP because they appear 
   to be in use. Although it is theoretically possible for management 
   plane applications to audit all network resources to locate stranded 
   resources and to release them, this process is rarely performed 
   because of the difficulty of coordinating different Element 
   Management Systems (EMSs), and the associated risks of accidentally 
   releasing in-use resources. It is desirable to have a control plane 
   mechanism that detects and reports stranded resources. 
 
 
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   This document defines simple additions to the Link Management 
   Protocol (LMP) [RFC4204] to provide a control plane tool that can 
   assist in the location of stranded resources by allowing adjacent 
   LSRs to confirm data channel statuses, and provides triggers for 
   notifying the management plane if any discrepancies are found. As LMP 
   is already used to verify data plane connectivity, it is considered 
   to be an appropriate candidate to support this feature. 

2. Problem Explanation 

   Examples of data channel mismatches are described in the following 
   three scenarios. 

   In all of the scenarios, the specific channel resource of a data link 
   will be unavailable because of the data channel status mismatch, and 
   this channel resource will be wasted. Furthermore, a data channel 
   status mismatch may reduce the possibility of successful LSP 
   establishment, because a data channel status mismatch may result in 
   failure when establishing an LSP.  

   So it is desirable to confirm the data channel statuses as early as 
   possible. 

2.1. Mismatch Caused by Manual Configuration 

   The operator may have configured a cross-connect at only one end of 
   a TE link using an EMS. The resource at one end of the data channel 
   is allocated, but the corresponding resource is still available at 
   the other end of the same data channel. In this case, the data 
   channel may appear to be available for use by the control plane when 
   viewed from one end of the TE link, but will be considered to be 
   unavailable by the other end of the TE link. Alternatively, the 
   available end of the data channel may be cross-connected by the 
   management plane and a misconnection may result from the fact that 
   the other end of the data channel is already cross-connected. 

   Figure 1 shows a data channel between nodes A and B. The resource at 
   A's end of the TE link is allocated through manual configuration, 
   while the resource at B's end of the TE link available, so the data 
   channel status is mismatched. 

                    allocated      available 
                       +-+------------+-+ 
                    A  |x|            | |  B 
                       +-+------------+-+ 
                            data channel              
 
 
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         Figure 1. Mismatch caused by manual configuration 
    
2.2. Mismatch Caused by LSP Deletion 

   The channel status of a data link may become mismatched during the 
   LSP deletion process. If the LSP deletion process is aborted in the 
   middle of the process (perhaps because of a temporary control plane 
   failure), the cross-connect at the upstream node may be removed while 
   the downstream node still keeps its cross-connect, if the LSP 
   deletion was initiated by the source node. 

   For example, in Figure 2 an LSP traverses nodes A, B, and C. Node B 
   resets abnormally when the LSP is being deleted. This results in the 
   cross-connects of node A and C being removed, but the cross-connect 
   of node B still being in use. So the data channel statuses between 
   nodes A and B, and between nodes B and C are both mismatched. 

                       <---------LSP---------> 
                       +-+-------+-+-------+-+          
                       | |       |X|       | |            
                       +-+-------+-+-------+-+     
                        A         B         C  
             Figure 2. Mismatch caused by LSP deletion  

   In [RFC2205] and [RFC3209], a soft state mechanism was defined to 
   prevent state discrepancies between LSRs. RSVP-TE restart processes 
   ([RFC3473], [RFC5063]) have been defined: adjacent LSRs may 
   resynchronize their control plane state to reinstate information 
   about LSPs that have persisted in the data plane. Both mechanisms aim 
   at keeping state consistency among nodes and allow LSRs to detect 
   mismatched data plane states. The data plane handling of such 
   mismatched state can be treated as a local policy decision. Some 
   deployments may decide to automatically clean up the data plane state 
   so it matches the control plane state, but others may choose to raise 
   an alert to the management plane and leave the data plane untouched 
   just in case it is in use. 

   In such cases, data channel mismatches may arise after restart and 
   might not be cleared up by the restart procedures. 

2.3. Failed Resources 

   Even if the situation is not common, it might happen that a 
   termination point of a TE-link is seen as failed by one end, while 
   on the other end it is seen as OK. This problem may arise due to 

 
 
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   some failure either in the hardware or in the status detection of 
   the termination point. 

   This mismatch in the termination point status can lead to failure 
   in case of bidirectional LSP set-up. 

                      Good           Failed 
                       +-+------------+-+ 
                    A  | |            |X|  B 
                       +-+------------+-+ 
                          data channel 
               Path Message with Upstream Label----> 
                                      
               Figure 3. Mismatch caused by resource failure 

   In this case upstream node chooses to use termination point A in 
   order to receive traffic from downstream node. From the upstream 
   node's point of view, the resource is available thus usable; however, 
   in the downstream node, the corresponding termination point (resource 
   B) is broken. This leads to a set-up failure. 

3. Motivation 

   The requirement does not come from a lack in GMPLS specifications 
   themselves but rather from operational concerns because, in most 
   cases, GMPLS-controlled networks will co-exist with legacy networks 
   and legacy procedures. 

   The protocol extensions defined in this document are intended to 
   detect data plane problems resulting from mis-use or mis-
   configurations triggered by user error, or resulting from failure to 
   clean up the data plane after control plane disconnection. It is 
   anticipated that human mistake is probably the major source of errors 
   to deal with. It is not the intention to provide a protocol mechanism 
   to deal with broken implementations. 

   The procedures defined in this document are designed to be operated 
   on a periodic or on-demand basis. It is NOT RECOMMENDED that the 
   procedures be used to provide a continuous and on-line monitoring 
   process. 

   As LMP is already used to verify data plane connectivity, it is 
   considered to be an appropriate candidate to support this feature. 



 
 
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4. Extensions to LMP 

   A control plane tool to detect and isolate data channel mismatches is 
   provided in this document by simple additions to the Link Management 
   Protocol (LMP) [RFC4204]. It can assist in the location of stranded 
   resources by allowing adjacent LSRs to confirm data channel statuses. 

   Outline procedures are described in this section. More detailed 
   procedures are found in Section 5. 

4.1. Confirm Data Channel Status Messages  

   Extensions to LMP to confirm a data channel status are described 
   below. In order to confirm a data channel status, the new LMP 
   messages are sent between adjacent nodes periodically or driven by 
   some event (such as an operator command, a configurable timer, or the 
   rejection of an LSP setup message because of an unavailable resource). 
   The new LMP messages run over the control channel, encapsulated in 
   UDP with an LMP port number and IP addressing as defined in Link 
   Management Protocol (LMP) [RFC4204]. 

   Three new messages are defined to check data channel status. Message 
   Type numbers are found in Section 7.1. 

   If the message is a Confirm Data Channel Status message, and the 
   Message_Id value is less than the largest Message_Id value previously 
   received from the sender for the specified TE link, then the message 
   SHOULD be treated as being out-of-order. 

4.1.1. ConfirmDataChannelStatus Messages 

   The ConfirmDataChannelStatus message is used to tell the remote end 
   of the data channel what the status of the local end of the data 
   channel is, and to ask the remote end to report its data channel. The 
   message may report on (and request information about) more than one 
   data channel. 

   <ConfirmDataChannelStatus Message> ::= <Common Header> 
                                          <LOCAL_LINK_ID> 
                                          <MESSAGE_ID> 
                                          <DATA_LINK>[<DATA_LINK>...] 
    
   When a node receives the ConfirmDataChannelStatus message, and the 
   data channel status confirmation procedure is supported at the node, 
   the node compares its own data channel statuses with all of the data 
   channel statuses sent by the remote end in the 
   ConfirmDataChannelStatus message. If a data channel status mismatch 
 
 
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   is found, this mismatch result is expected to be reported to the 
   management plane for further action. Management plane reporting 
   procedures and actions are outside the scope of this document. 

 
4.1.2. ConfirmDataChannelStatusAck Messages 

   The ConfirmDataChannelStatusAck message is sent back to the node 
   which originated the ConfirmDataChannelStatus message to return the 
   requested data channel statuses. 

   When the ConfirmDataChannelStatusAck message is received, the node 
   compares the received data channel statuses at the remote end with 
   those at the local end (the same operation as performed by the 
   receiver of the ConfirmDataChannelStatus message). If a data channel 
   status mismatch is found, the mismatch result is expected to be 
   reported to the management plane for further action. 

   <ConfirmDataChannelStatusAck Message> ::= <Common Header> 
                                             <MESSAGE_ID_ACK> 
                                             <DATA_LINK>[<DATA_LINK>...] 
    

   The contents of the MESSAGE_ID_ACK objects MUST be obtained from the 
   ConfirmDataChannelStatus message being acknowledged. 

   Note that the ConfirmDataChannelStatusAck message is used both when 
   the data channel statuses match and when they do not match. 

4.1.3. ConfirmDataChannelStatusNack Messages 

   When a node receives the ConfirmDataChannelStatus message, if the 
   data channel status confirmation procedure is not supported but the 
   message is recognized, a ConfirmDataChannelStatusNack message 
   containing an ERROR_CODE indicating "Channel Status Confirmation 
   Procedure not supported" MUST be sent. 

   If the data channel status confirmation procedure is supported, but 
   the node is unable to begin the procedure, a 
   ConfirmDataChannelStatusNack message containing an ERROR_CODE 
   indicating "Unwilling to Confirm" MUST be sent. If a 
   ConfirmDataChannelStatusNack message is received with such an 
   ERROR_CODE, the node which originated the ConfirmDataChannelStatus 
   message MAY schedule the ConfirmDataChannelStatus message 
   retransmission after a configured time. A default value of 10 minutes 
   is suggested for this timer. 

 
 
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   <ConfirmDataChannelStatusNack Message> ::= <Common Header> 
                                              [<LOCAL_LINK_ID>] 
                                              <MESSAGE_ID_ACK> 
                                              <ERROR_CODE> 
     
   The contents of the MESSAGE_ID_ACK objects MUST be obtained from the 
   ConfirmDataChannelStatus message being rejected. 

4.2. Data Channel Status Subobject 

   A new Data Channel Status subobject type is introduced to the DATA 
   LINK object to hold the data channel status and Data Channel 
   Identification. 

   See Section 7.2 for the Subobject Type value. 

    0                   1                   2                   3 
    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
   |    Type       |    Length     |     Data Channel Status       | 
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
   |                                                               | 
   //                      Data Channel ID                        // 
   |                                                               | 
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
    
   Data Channel Status: 

   This is a series of bit flags to indicate the status of the data 
   channel. The following values are defined. 

   0x0000 : The channel is available/free. 
   0x0001 : The channel is unavailable/in-use. 
    
   Data Channel ID 

   This identifies the data channel. The length of this field can be 
   deduced from the Length field in the subobject. Note that all 
   subobjects must be padded to a four byte boundary with trailing zeros. 
   If such padding is required, the Length field MUST indicate the 
   length of the subobject up to, but not including, the first byte of 
   padding. Thus, the amount of padding is deduced and not represented 
   in the Length field. 

   Note that the Data Channel ID is given in the context of the sender 
   of the ConfirmChannelStatus message. 

 
 
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   The data-channel ID must be encoded as a label value. Based on the 
   type of signal e.g. SONET/SDH, Lambda etc. the encoding methodology 
   used will be different. For SONET/SDH the label value is encoded as 
   per RFC4606. 

4.3. Message Construction 

   Data_Link Class is included in ConfirmDataChannelStatus and 
   ConfirmDataChannelStatusAck messages, which is defined in section 
   13.12 in [RFC4204]. 

   The status of the TE link end MUST be carried by the Data Channel 
   Status subobject which is defined in section 4.2 of this document. 
   The new subobject MUST be part of Data_Link Class. 

   In the case of SDH/SONET, DATA Channel ID in the new subobject SHOULD 
   be used to identify each timeslot of the data link. 

4.4. Backward Compatibility 

   Some nodes running in the network may only support the LMP Message 
   Type from 1 to 20, which are already defined in [RFC4204]. The three 
   new types of LMP message (Message Type from 21 to 23) defined in this 
   document can not be recognized by these nodes. The unknown message 
   behavior is not being specified in [RFC4204], it's suggested to 
   discard the unknown message silently. This document's defined 
   mechanisms presume a certain non-standard behavior of existing/non-
   document supporting nodes. To use this mechanisms all nodes MUST have 
   the extensions described in this document for compatibility. 

5. Procedures 

   The data channel status confirmation related LMP messages MAY be sent 
   between adjacent nodes which are triggered by timer periodically or 
   driven by some events to confirm the channel status for the data 
   links. It's a local police decision to start the data channel status 
   confirmation process. The procedure is described below: 

   . The SENDER constructs a ConfirmDataChannelStatus message which 
      MUST contain one or more DATA_LINK objects. DATA_LINK object is 
      defined in [RFC4204]. Each DATA_LINK object MUST contain one or 
      more Data Channel Status subobjects. The Data Channel ID field in 
      the Data Channel Status subobject MUST indicate which data channel 
      needs to be confirmed, and MUST report the data channel status at 
      the SENDER. The ConfirmDataChannelStatus message is sent to the 
      RECEIVER. 

 
 
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   . The RECEIVER MUST extract the data channel statuses from the 
      ConfirmDataChannelStatus message, and SHOULD compare these with 
      its data channel statuses for the reported data channels. If a 
      data channel status mismatch is found, the mismatch result SHOULD 
      be reported to the management plane for further action. The 
      RECEIVER also SHOULD send the ConfirmDataChannelStatusAck message 
      which MUST carry all the local end statuses of the requested data 
      channels to the SENDER. 

   . If the RECEIVER is not able to support or to begin the 
      confirmation procedure, the ConfirmDataChannelStatusNack message 
      MUST be responded with the ERROR_CODE which indicates the reason 
      of rejection. 

   . When the SENDER receives the response ConfirmDataChannelStatusAck 
      message, and MUST compare the received data channel statuses at 
      the remote end with the data channel statuses at the local end. If 
      a data channel status mismatch is found, the mismatch result 
      SHOULD be reported to the management plane for further action. 

   The data channel status mismatch issue identified by LMP may be 
   automatically resolved by RSVP restart. For example, the restarting 
   node may also have damaged its data plane. This leaves the data 
   channels mismatched. But RSVP restart will re-install the data plane 
   state in the restarting node. The issue may also be resolved via RSVP 
   soft state timeout. 

   If the ConfirmDataChannelStatus message is not recognized by the 
   RECEIVER, the RECEIVER ignores this message, and will not send out an 
   acknowledgment message to the SENDER. 

   Due to message loss problem, the SENDER may not be able to receive 
   the acknowledgment message. 

   ConfirmDataChannelStatus SHOULD be sent using LMP [RFC4204] reliable 
   transmission mechanisms. If after the retry limit is reached, a 
   ConfirmDataChannelStatusAck message or a ConfirmDataChannelStatusNack 
   message is not received by the SENDER, the SENDER SHOULD terminate 
   the data channel confirmation procedure. 

6. Security Considerations 

   [RFC4204] describes how LMP messages between peers can be secured, 
   and these measures are equally applicable to the new messages defined 
   in this document. 


 
 
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   The operation of the procedures described in this document does not 
   of themselves constitute a security risk since they do not cause any 
   change in network state. It would be possible, if the messages were 
   intercepted or spoofed to cause bogus alerts in the management plane 
   and so the use of the LMP security measures are RECOMMENDED. 

   Note that operating the procedures described in this document may 
   provide a useful additional security measure to verify that data 
   channels have not been illicitly modified. 

7. IANA Considerations 

7.1. LMP Message Types 

   IANA maintains the "Link Management Protocol (LMP)" registry which 
   has a subregistry called "LMP Message Type". IANA is requested to 
   make three new allocations from this registry as follows. The message 
   type values are suggested and to be confirmed by IANA. 

   Value    Description 
   ------   --------------------------------- 
     32     ConfirmDataChannelStatus 
     33     ConfirmDataChannelStatusAck 
     34     ConfirmDataChannelStatusNack 
    

7.2. LMP Data Link Object Subobject 

   IANA maintains the "Link Management Protocol (LMP)" registry which 
   has a subregistry called "LMP Object Class name space and Class type 
   (C-Type)". This subregistry has an entry for the DATA_LINK object, 
   and there is a further embedded registry called "DATA_LINK Sub-object 
   Class name space". IANA is requested to make the following allocation 
   from this embedded registry. The value shown is suggested and to be 
   confirmed by IANA. 

   Value    Description 
   ------   --------------------------------- 
     9      Data Channel Status 
    

8. Acknowledgments 

   We would like to thank Adrian Farrel, Dimitri Papadimitriou, Lou 
   Berger for their useful comments. 


 
 
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9. References 

9.1. Normative References 

   [RFC2119]   Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate 
               Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997. 

   [RFC4204]   J. Lang, Ed., "Link Management Protocol (LMP)", RFC 4204, 
               October 2005. 

9.2. Informative References 

   [RFC2205]  R. Braden, Ed., "Resource ReSerVation Protocol (RSVP) --
               Version 1 Functional Specification", RFC 2205, September 
               1997 

   [RFC3209]  D. Awduche, L. Berger, D. Gan, T. Li, V. Srinivasan, G. 
               Swallow, "RSVP-TE: Extensions to RSVP for LSP Tunnels", 
               RFC 3209, December 2001 

   [RFC3473]  L. Berger, Ed., "Generalized Multi-Protocol Label 
               Switching (GMPLS) Signaling Resource ReserVation 
               Protocol-Traffic Engineering (RSVP-TE) Extensions", RFC 
               3473, January 2003 

   [RFC5063]  A. Satyanarayana, R. Rahman, "Extensions to GMPLS RSVP 
               Graceful Restart", RFC 5063, September 2007 

   [RFC4203]  K. Kompella, Ed., "OSPF Extensions in Support of 
               Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) ", RFC 
               4203, October 2005 

   [RFC4205]  K. Kompella, Ed., "Intermediate System to Intermediate 
               System (IS-IS) Extensions in Support of Generalized 
               Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) ", RFC 4205, 
               October 2005 

10. Authors' Addresses 

   Dan Li
   Huawei Technologies
   F3-5-B R&D Center, Huawei Base,
   Shenzhen 518129 China

   Phone: +86 755-289-70230
   Email: danli@huawei.com



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   Huiying Xu
   Huawei Technologies
   F3-5-B R&D Center, Huawei Base,
   Shenzhen 518129 China

   Phone: +86 755-289-72910
   Email: xuhuiying@huawei.com


   Fatai Zhang
   Huawei Technologies
   F3-5-B R&D Center, Huawei Base,
   Shenzhen 518129 China

   Phone: +86 755-289-72912
   Email: zhangfatai@huawei.com


   Snigdho C. Bardalai
   Fujitsu Network Communications
   2801 Telecom Parkway,
   Richardson, Texas 75082, USA

   Phone: +1 972 479 2951
   Email: snigdho.bardalai@us.fujitsu.com


   Julien Meuric
   France Telecom Orange Labs
   2, avenue Pierre Marzin
   22307 Lannion Cedex, France

   Phone: +33 2 96 05 28 28
   Email: julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com


   Diego Caviglia
   Ericsson
   Via A. Negrone 1/A 16153
   Genoa Italy

   Phone: +39 010 600 3736
   Email: diego.caviglia@ericsson.com




 
 
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11. Full Copyright Statement 

   Copyright (c) 2009 IETF Trust and the persons identified as the 
   document authors. All rights reserved. 

   This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal 
   Provisions Relating to IETF Documents in effect on the date of 
   publication of this document (http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info). 
   Please review these documents carefully, as they describe your rights 
   and restrictions with respect to this document. 

   This document may contain material from IETF Documents or IETF 
   Contributions published or made publicly available before November 10, 
   2008. The person(s) controlling the copyright in some of this 
   material may not have granted the IETF Trust the right to allow 
   modifications of such material outside the IETF Standards Process. 
   Without obtaining an adequate license from the person(s) controlling 
   the copyright in such materials, this document may not be modified 
   outside the IETF Standards Process, and derivative works of it may 
   not be created outside the IETF Standards Process, except to format 
   it for publication as an RFC or to translate it into languages other 
   than English. 

12. Intellectual Property Statement 

   The IETF Trust takes no position regarding the validity or scope of 
   any Intellectual Property Rights or other rights that might be 
   claimed to pertain to the implementation or use of the technology 
   described in any IETF Document or the extent to which any license 
   under such rights might or might not be available; nor does it 
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   such rights. 

   Copies of Intellectual Property disclosures made to the IETF 
   Secretariat and any assurances of licenses to be made available, or 
   the result of an attempt made to obtain a general license or 
   permission for the use of such proprietary rights by implementers or 
   users of this specification can be obtained from the IETF on-line IPR 
   repository at http://www.ietf.org/ipr 

   The IETF invites any interested party to bring to its attention any 
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13. Disclaimer of Validity 

   All IETF Documents and the information contained therein are provided 
   on an "AS IS" basis and THE CONTRIBUTOR, THE ORGANIZATION HE/SHE 
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From lberger@labn.net  Fri Aug 14 08:20:42 2009
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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 11:20:47 -0400
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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To: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
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Cc: xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn, ccamp@ietf.org, ext zhangguoying <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>, "Jin, Lizhong \(NSN - CN/Shanghai\)" <lizhong.jin@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
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Fatai,
	I think the discussion on this topic is quite useful and I don't want
to limit it.  That said, I personally think that compatibility (or
coexistence) with existing standards track RFCs is very important, and
that deprecation or replacement is a step that should only be taken as
an exception and not the norm.

Lou

On 8/13/2009 10:07 PM, Fatai Zhang wrote:
> Hi all,
>  
> If there are no implementations for RFC4328 in the industry, do you
> really think that we need two totally different label formats and
> intentionally introduce the backward compatibility ? Do we really like
> trouble very much ?
>  
> We always admit that we should consider backward compatibility if there
> are deployments for RFC4328.
>  
> I think if we really need to consider backward compatibility, we should
> focus on how to resolve it, but not focus on merging two documents,
> because the label formats in two documents are very different and the
> solutions for the backward compatibility may also be different.
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Thanks
>  
> Fatai
>  
> Advanced Technology Department
> Wireline Networking Business Unit
> Huawei Technologies Co., LTD.
> Huawei Base, Bantian, Longgang,
> Shenzhen 518129 P.R.China
> Tel: +86-755-28972912
> Fax: +86-755-28972935
> 
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Frederick Robinson <mailto:frederick.bedford@gmail.com>
>     *To:* Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai) <mailto:lizhong.jin@nsn.com>
>     *Cc:* ccamp@ietf.org <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org> ; ext zhangguoying
>     <mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn> ; xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn
>     <mailto:xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>     *Sent:* Friday, August 14, 2009 3:09 AM
>     *Subject:* Re: [CCAMP] Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
> 
>     Hi all:
> 
>     I Agree with Lizhong.
> 
>     We took several years to standardize the GMPLS extension for ODU1,
>     ODU2 and ODU3.
>     Technology of OTN is developing. We also need some time to
>     standardize the extension for the new application. We can not forbid
>     vendor/carrier to deploy the OTN based on RFC4328 at any time. We
>     should keep them from waiting for the new extension. Further more,
>     any extension can not completely promise to fit any new application
>     in the future. So we have to deal with it step by step. There is
>     some backward compatibility considerations and solution in
>     draft-ceccarellifuxh. There is also a extensible lable format in
>     draft-zhang. Why should we take a long time to survey it among the
>     OTN service providers. Two documents should be merged as soon as
>     possible.
> 
>     Bedford
> 
>     **
>     2009/8/12 Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai) <lizhong.jin@nsn.com
>     <mailto:lizhong.jin@nsn.com>>
> 
>         Hi all:
>         What I need to clarify from my side is that abandoning a RFC is
>         not preferred in any case. If we can develop a backward solution
>         by merging draft-ceccarellifuxh and draft-zhang, why don't we go
>         in this way.
>          
>         BR
>         Lizhong Jin
> 
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         *From:* ext zhangguoying [mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn
>         <mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>]
>         *Sent:* Tuesday, August 04, 2009 22:03
> 
>         *To:* Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai); ccamp@ietf.org
>         <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>         *Cc:* zhangfatai@huawei.com <mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com>;
>         fu.xihua@zte.com.cn <mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>;
>         dbrungard@att.com <mailto:dbrungard@att.com>; lberger@labn.net
>         <mailto:lberger@labn.net>; diego.caviglia@ericsson.com
>         <mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>;
>         daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>         <mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>;
>         xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn <mailto:xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn>
> 
>         *Subject:* Re: RE: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
> 
>         Hi all,
>          
>         As many experts have explained, the label encoding with bit map
>         in draft-zhang is  surely a better way to
>         achieve extensibility and scalability of OTN lable.  
>          
>         The main issue that bit map label format might have is
>         the backword compatibility. I think we might need to start an
>         survey among the OTN service providers in the mailing list,  and
>         see if there are any OTN networks deployed with GMPLS
>         RFC4328 lable format.
>          
>         If there're no real deployment, we don't need to consider the
>         compatability problem;
>          
>         If there're some deployment, compatability problem need to
>         be solved . An easy way might be adding an label version bit in
>         the label format, or some other solutions may be searched out.
>          
>          
>         best regards,
>         Guoying Zhang
>          
>          
>          
>         2009-08-04
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         zhangguoying
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         *·¢¼þÈË£º* Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai)
>         *·¢ËÍÊ±¼ä£º* 2009-08-04  13:34:24
>         *ÊÕ¼þÈË£º* ccamp@ietf.org <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>         *³­ËÍ£º* zhangfatai@huawei.com <mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com>;
>         fu.xihua@zte.com.cn <mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>;
>         dbrungard@att.com <mailto:dbrungard@att.com>; lberger@labn.net
>         <mailto:lberger@labn.net>; diego.caviglia@ericsson.com
>         <mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>;
>         daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>         <mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>;
>         zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn
>         <mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>;
>         xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn <mailto:xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>         *Ö÷Ìâ£º* RE: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
>         Hi Fatai and all:
>         I agree with the issues of excessive number of labels if using the same
>         label concept of RFC4328. By using bit map for label encoding is a good
>         idea. And from my understanding,
>         draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00 can merge this bit
>         map idea if Fatai agree.
>          
>         For backward compatibility, we can not assume that RFC4328 is not
>         deployed unless we can provide some kind of survey report. So currently
>         the right assumption is that RFC4328 has been deployed, and backward
>         compatibity should be considered.
>          
>         Best Regards
>         Lizhong Jin
>          
>         ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>          
>         Message: 1
>         Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:33:56 +0200
>         From: "BELOTTI SERGIO"  <Sergio.Belotti@alcatel-lucent.it
>         <mailto:Sergio.Belotti@alcatel-lucent.it> >
>         Subject: [CCAMP] R: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
>         forEvolutive OTN
>         To: "Fatai"  <zhangfatai@huawei.com
>         <mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com> >,  <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn
>         <mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn> >,
>         <dbrungard@att.com <mailto:dbrungard@att.com> >, 
>         <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net> >,
>         <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com <mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com> >,
>         <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>         <mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com> >,
>         <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn
>         <mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn> >,
>         <xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn <mailto:xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn> >
>         Cc: ccamp@ietf.org <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>         Message-ID:
>         <3F44186D7141E247972EAC6655B0A29101FA7A56@FRVELSMBS21.ad2.ad.alcatel.com
>         <mailto:3F44186D7141E247972EAC6655B0A29101FA7A56@FRVELSMBS21.ad2.ad.alcatel.com>
>         >
>         Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>          
>         Dear Fatai and all,
>          
>          
>          
>         We agree on the major points raised by Fatai as general issue to be
>         solved in the context of extension needed to cope with new containers
>         defined in ITU  q11 context, in addition to handling ODU multiplexing
>         scenarios in existing OTN.
>          
>         There are two basic points that brings to the need to update the RFC4328
>         anyway.
>          
>          
>          
>         1) the present RFC does not permit the link based negotiation  for time
>         slot allocation . No information about tributary port numbers is present
>         and only in case we have "single layer" , no multiplexing LO --
>         > HO you
>         can apply . So this is a lack against the original G.709 even without
>         considering G.709 Am3 .
>          
>          
>          
>         2) Scalability: The extension required in the context of new OTN with
>         the introduction of ODU0, ODU4, and above all ODUflex , required a real
>         modifications of the structure of the label to avoid real big size of
>         number of labels to transmit offloading signalling session. Extension
>         based on RFC4328 logic do not scale when ODU-flex is used. Large ODU
>         flex containers will generate
>          
>         an excessive number of labels (in principle up to 80 per link) causing
>         problems with the size of the RSVP-TE message.
>          
>          
>          
>         This two points together call to the need to change something in RFC.
>          
>         Backward compatibility aspects, present in all the drafts, are surely to
>         be considered and if there are single layer systems deployed using
>         RFC4328 this should be grandfathered.
>          
>          
>          
>         Best Regards
>          
>          
>          
>         Sergio
>          
>          
>          
>          
>          
>         Sergio Belotti
>          
>          
>          
>         CTO Optics Division
>          
>         Alcatel-Lucent
>          
>          
>          
>         +39 039 6863033
>          
>         +39 039 6863590
>          
>          
>          
>         ________________________________
>          
>         Da: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org
>         <mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org
>         <mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org>] Per conto di
>         Fatai
>         Inviato: mercoled? 29 luglio 2009 18.33
>         A: fu.xihua@zte.com.cn
>         <mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; dbrungard@att.com
>         <mailto:dbrungard@att.com>; lberger@labn.net
>         <mailto:lberger@labn.net>;
>         diego.caviglia@ericsson.com
>         <mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>         <mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>;
>         zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn
>         <mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn <mailto:xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>         Cc: ccamp@ietf.org <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>         Oggetto: Re: [CCAMP] Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
>         forEvolutive OTN
>          
>          
>          
>         Hi all,
>          
>          
>          
>         To support the current verison of G.709, we think the label format
>         defined in RFC4328 need to be re-defined anyway. The new OTN label
>         format should support the whole ODU sets, not only the ODU1, 2, and 3,
>         but also ODU0, ODU4, even ODUFlex. The following three aspects should be
>         considered carefully:
>          
>          
>          
>         1) The extensibility of the label format is the first thing we should
>         consider. With the development of OTN technology, RFC4328 label format
>         style needs to be extended to support the new bitrate ODU (eg. ODU5,
>         6...). By the end, we may need keep extending the label formats.
>         Managing lots of label format may cause big trouble, so we need one-shot
>         label format for the evolving OTN.  
>          
>          
>          
>         2) Scalability is another key issue. RFC4328 style format may result in
>         big size of the total labels, which definitely increase the burden of
>         the signaling. An efficient approach is needed to carry the same label
>         information but with less amount of the data, bitmap style is the right
>         way to go.
>          
>          
>          
>         3) For backward compatibility, if there are no implementations for
>         RFC4328 (or if there are no deployments it is desirable to deprecate
>         even if it is uncomfortable for existing implementations), it is very
>         safe to deprecate the old definition, and an extensible, efficient and
>         scalable solution could be helpful. The label defined in draft-zhang
>         does not overwrite RFC4328, it can allow the old definition to continue
>         to exist.
>          
>          
>          
>         Hope this can clarify your concern.
>          
>          
>          
>         Authors of draft-zhang
>          
>          
>          
>          
>          
>          
>          
>         ----- Original Message ----- 
>          
>         From: fu.xihua@zte.com.cn <mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn> 
>          
>         To: dbrungard@att.com
>         <mailto:dbrungard@att.com> ; lberger@labn.net
>         <mailto:lberger@labn.net> ; zhangfatai@huawei.com
>         <mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com>
>         ; diego.caviglia@ericsson.com
>         <mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com> ; daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>         <mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com> 
>          
>         Cc: ccamp@ietf.org <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org> 
>          
>         Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 5:33 PM
>          
>         Subject: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension for
>         Evolutive OTN
>          
>          
>          
>         Hi Fatai and All, 
>         We have presented the following two document  in the CCAMP
>         morning session. But we have no more time to further discuss GMPLS
>         extension for evolutive OTN 
>         draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00.txt
>         <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evo
>         l-otn-00 >  
>         draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-01.txt
>         <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-01.txt
>         >  
>         We have a couple of comments and questions for the draft-zhang. 
>         (1) draft-zhang defined the extensions including what has been
>         done in RFC4328 (i.e., ODU1, ODU2 and ODU3). 
>               draft-ceccarellifuxh defined new Gneralized Label only for
>         new application (i.e., ODU0, 1.25G ODU1, 1.25G ODU2, 1.25G ODU3, ODU2e,
>         ODU3e1, ODU3e2, ODUflex and ODU4). 
>               draft-ceccarellifuxh is only a supplement of RFC4328. 
>               How can we used RFC4328 and draft-zhang ?       
>               Any way, if we need to update an previous RFC, we should
>         assume that it has been deployed, not asking if someone did or not. 
>         (2) Do you really want to remove NMC from the Traffic
>         Parameters? 
>               If you do that, I think we have to abandon RFC4328. 
>         (3) The compatibility consideration in draft-zhang. 
>            We don't think the extensions in draft-zhang can coexist with
>         RFC4328. 
>            You point out "we can just do some translation or mapping in
>         the new nodes". 
>            But before the translation or mapping, you have to know the
>         Generalized Label Format.   
>            We concern about:   
>            i)  How does one node know the Generalized Label format,
>         especially for ODU1, ODU2 and ODU3 base on your solution?     
>                 It may depend on the capability of the adjacent network
>         element. 
>            ii) But how can the control plane know the adjacent network
>         element's capability without discovery mechanism? 
>                You should know that GMPLS signaling extension should be
>         independent on the discovery mechanism and the configuration of
>         management plane. 
>            iii) The control plane don't need to know the G.709(2003/03)
>         or G.709 Amendment3 network element? 
>               
>              In a word, we think it can not do the translation and
>         mapping. So we can not get the compatibility with RFC4328 in
>         draft-zhang. 
>          (4) The Generalized Label in draft-zhang 
>             - managing a variable length label could be a mess. 
>             - draft-zhang uses a first part of the label which has fixed
>         values and then a variable number of bit that is the bitmap. 
>                The bitmap can be long from 0 to 80 bits depending on the
>         signal type. 
>             - the value of the bitmap is not independent but depends on
>         the values of two previous fields (ODUk and ODUj) and becomes reserved
>         in case of K=J 
>             - a bitmap label have not been used nor in SDH and not in
>         WSON where a fixed label (4 bytes) is used. 
>         Xihua Fu 
>         ZTE 
>          
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>         End of CCAMP Digest, Vol 14, Issue 26
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From daniel@olddog.co.uk  Fri Aug 14 14:46:55 2009
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From: "Daniel King" <daniel@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>, "'Fatai Zhang'" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
References: <mailman.2433.1248946480.4909.ccamp@ietf.org>	<328B9F5068825A48A4B8422A350B90478ADEF6@CNBEEXC006.nsn-intra.net>	<200908042202560621383@mail.ritt.com.cn>	<328B9F5068825A48A4B8422A350B90478FDD26@CNBEEXC006.nsn-intra.net>	<26bbdc380908131209x31719bedw6dcd55c1dd47844@mail.gmail.com> <008901ca1c83$fba46930$5b4c460a@china.huawei.com> <4A8580CF.3060507@labn.net>
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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 22:46:18 +0100
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Cc: 'ext zhangguoying' <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>, ccamp@ietf.org, xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn, "'Jin, Lizhong \(NSN - CN/Shanghai\)'" <lizhong.jin@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
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Hi Lou, et al.=20

I have been following the discussion. A while ago in the L3VPN WG we ran =
an
anonymous survey regarding the actual and planned deployment of MVPNs. =
Now
putting my CCAMP WG Secretary hat on. I am wondering if it is worth =
doing
something similar for this particular discussion?=20

If the chairs are willing, I could carry out a quick RFC4328 survey. We
could poll the WG and ascertain the number of RFC4328 deployments. =
Vendors
could also acknowledge if they have hardware capable of supporting =
RFC4328
as well. Survey responses would be sent directly to me. I would =
guarantee to
keep the vendor and operator information confidential. Once I have =
compiled
the results, I would report back the anonymous results.

Br, Dan.=20


-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
Lou Berger
Sent: 14 August 2009 16:21
To: Fatai Zhang
Cc: xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn; ccamp@ietf.org; ext zhangguoying; Jin,
Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai)
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension

Fatai,
	I think the discussion on this topic is quite useful and I don't
want
to limit it.  That said, I personally think that compatibility (or
coexistence) with existing standards track RFCs is very important, and
that deprecation or replacement is a step that should only be taken as
an exception and not the norm.

Lou

On 8/13/2009 10:07 PM, Fatai Zhang wrote:
> Hi all,
> =20
> If there are no implementations for RFC4328 in the industry, do you
> really think that we need two totally different label formats and
> intentionally introduce the backward compatibility ? Do we really like
> trouble very much ?
> =20
> We always admit that we should consider backward compatibility if =
there
> are deployments for RFC4328.
> =20
> I think if we really need to consider backward compatibility, we =
should
> focus on how to resolve it, but not focus on merging two documents,
> because the label formats in two documents are very different and the
> solutions for the backward compatibility may also be different.
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> Thanks
> =20
> Fatai
> =20
> Advanced Technology Department
> Wireline Networking Business Unit
> Huawei Technologies Co., LTD.
> Huawei Base, Bantian, Longgang,
> Shenzhen 518129 P.R.China
> Tel: +86-755-28972912
> Fax: +86-755-28972935
>=20
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Frederick Robinson <mailto:frederick.bedford@gmail.com>
>     *To:* Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai) =
<mailto:lizhong.jin@nsn.com>
>     *Cc:* ccamp@ietf.org <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org> ; ext zhangguoying
>     <mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn> ; xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn
>     <mailto:xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>     *Sent:* Friday, August 14, 2009 3:09 AM
>     *Subject:* Re: [CCAMP] Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling =
Extension
>=20
>     Hi all:
>=20
>     I Agree with Lizhong.
>=20
>     We took several years to standardize the GMPLS extension for ODU1,
>     ODU2 and ODU3.
>     Technology of OTN is developing. We also need some time to
>     standardize the extension for the new application. We can not =
forbid
>     vendor/carrier to deploy the OTN based on RFC4328 at any time. We
>     should keep them from waiting for the new extension. Further more,
>     any extension can not completely promise to fit any new =
application
>     in the future. So we have to deal with it step by step. There is
>     some backward compatibility considerations and solution in
>     draft-ceccarellifuxh. There is also a extensible lable format in
>     draft-zhang. Why should we take a long time to survey it among the
>     OTN service providers. Two documents should be merged as soon as
>     possible.
>=20
>     Bedford
>=20
>     **
>     2009/8/12 Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai) <lizhong.jin@nsn.com
>     <mailto:lizhong.jin@nsn.com>>
>=20
>         Hi all:
>         What I need to clarify from my side is that abandoning a RFC =
is
>         not preferred in any case. If we can develop a backward =
solution
>         by merging draft-ceccarellifuxh and draft-zhang, why don't we =
go
>         in this way.
>         =20
>         BR
>         Lizhong Jin
>=20
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         *From:* ext zhangguoying [mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn
>         <mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>]
>         *Sent:* Tuesday, August 04, 2009 22:03
>=20
>         *To:* Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai); ccamp@ietf.org
>         <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>         *Cc:* zhangfatai@huawei.com <mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com>;
>         fu.xihua@zte.com.cn <mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>;
>         dbrungard@att.com <mailto:dbrungard@att.com>; lberger@labn.net
>         <mailto:lberger@labn.net>; diego.caviglia@ericsson.com
>         <mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>;
>         daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>         <mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>;
>         xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn <mailto:xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>=20
>         *Subject:* Re: RE: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling =
Extension
>=20
>         Hi all,
>         =20
>         As many experts have explained, the label encoding with bit =
map
>         in draft-zhang is  surely a better way to
>         achieve extensibility and scalability of OTN lable. =20
>         =20
>         The main issue that bit map label format might have is
>         the backword compatibility. I think we might need to start an
>         survey among the OTN service providers in the mailing list,  =
and
>         see if there are any OTN networks deployed with GMPLS
>         RFC4328 lable format.
>         =20
>         If there're no real deployment, we don't need to consider the
>         compatability problem;
>         =20
>         If there're some deployment, compatability problem need to
>         be solved . An easy way might be adding an label version bit =
in
>         the label format, or some other solutions may be searched out.
>         =20
>         =20
>         best regards,
>         Guoying Zhang
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         2009-08-04
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         zhangguoying
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         *=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA* Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai)
>         *=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA* 2009-08-04  13:34:24
>         *=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA* ccamp@ietf.org =
<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>         *=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA* zhangfatai@huawei.com =
<mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com>;
>         fu.xihua@zte.com.cn <mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>;
>         dbrungard@att.com <mailto:dbrungard@att.com>; lberger@labn.net
>         <mailto:lberger@labn.net>; diego.caviglia@ericsson.com
>         <mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>;
>         daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>         <mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>;
>         zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn
>         <mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>;
>         xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn <mailto:xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>         *=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA* RE: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling =
Extension
>         Hi Fatai and all:
>         I agree with the issues of excessive number of labels if using =
the
same
>         label concept of RFC4328. By using bit map for label encoding =
is a
good
>         idea. And from my understanding,
>         draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00 can merge
this bit
>         map idea if Fatai agree.
>         =20
>         For backward compatibility, we can not assume that RFC4328 is =
not
>         deployed unless we can provide some kind of survey report. So
currently
>         the right assumption is that RFC4328 has been deployed, and
backward
>         compatibity should be considered.
>         =20
>         Best Regards
>         Lizhong Jin
>         =20
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>         =20
>         Message: 1
>         Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:33:56 +0200
>         From: "BELOTTI SERGIO"  <Sergio.Belotti@alcatel-lucent.it
>         <mailto:Sergio.Belotti@alcatel-lucent.it> >
>         Subject: [CCAMP] R: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling =
Extension
>         forEvolutive OTN
>         To: "Fatai"  <zhangfatai@huawei.com
>         <mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com> >,  <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn
>         <mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn> >,
>         <dbrungard@att.com <mailto:dbrungard@att.com> >,=20
>         <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net> >,
>         <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com =
<mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>
>,
>         <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>         <mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com> >,
>         <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn
>         <mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn> >,
>         <xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn <mailto:xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn> =
>
>         Cc: ccamp@ietf.org <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>         Message-ID:
>
<3F44186D7141E247972EAC6655B0A29101FA7A56@FRVELSMBS21.ad2.ad.alcatel.com
>
<mailto:3F44186D7141E247972EAC6655B0A29101FA7A56@FRVELSMBS21.ad2.ad.alcat=
el.
com>
>         >
>         Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
>         =20
>         Dear Fatai and all,
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         We agree on the major points raised by Fatai as general issue =
to
be
>         solved in the context of extension needed to cope with new
containers
>         defined in ITU  q11 context, in addition to handling ODU
multiplexing
>         scenarios in existing OTN.
>         =20
>         There are two basic points that brings to the need to update =
the
RFC4328
>         anyway.
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         1) the present RFC does not permit the link based negotiation  =
for
time
>         slot allocation . No information about tributary port numbers =
is
present
>         and only in case we have "single layer" , no multiplexing LO =
--
>         > HO you
>         can apply . So this is a lack against the original G.709 even
without
>         considering G.709 Am3 .
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         2) Scalability: The extension required in the context of new =
OTN
with
>         the introduction of ODU0, ODU4, and above all ODUflex , =
required a
real
>         modifications of the structure of the label to avoid real big =
size
of
>         number of labels to transmit offloading signalling session.
Extension
>         based on RFC4328 logic do not scale when ODU-flex is used. =
Large
ODU
>         flex containers will generate
>         =20
>         an excessive number of labels (in principle up to 80 per link)
causing
>         problems with the size of the RSVP-TE message.
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         This two points together call to the need to change something =
in
RFC.
>         =20
>         Backward compatibility aspects, present in all the drafts, are
surely to
>         be considered and if there are single layer systems deployed =
using
>         RFC4328 this should be grandfathered.
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         Best Regards
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         Sergio
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         Sergio Belotti
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         CTO Optics Division
>         =20
>         Alcatel-Lucent
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         +39 039 6863033
>         =20
>         +39 039 6863590
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         ________________________________
>         =20
>         Da: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org
>         <mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org
>         <mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org>] Per conto di
>         Fatai
>         Inviato: mercoled? 29 luglio 2009 18.33
>         A: fu.xihua@zte.com.cn
>         <mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; dbrungard@att.com
>         <mailto:dbrungard@att.com>; lberger@labn.net
>         <mailto:lberger@labn.net>;
>         diego.caviglia@ericsson.com
>         <mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; =
daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.
com
>         <mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>;
>         zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn
>         <mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; =
xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn
<mailto:xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>         Cc: ccamp@ietf.org <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>         Oggetto: Re: [CCAMP] Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling
Extension
>         forEvolutive OTN
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         Hi all,
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         To support the current verison of G.709, we think the label =
format
>         defined in RFC4328 need to be re-defined anyway. The new OTN =
label
>         format should support the whole ODU sets, not only the ODU1, =
2,
and 3,
>         but also ODU0, ODU4, even ODUFlex. The following three aspects
should be
>         considered carefully:
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         1) The extensibility of the label format is the first thing we
should
>         consider. With the development of OTN technology, RFC4328 =
label
format
>         style needs to be extended to support the new bitrate ODU (eg.
ODU5,
>         6...). By the end, we may need keep extending the label =
formats.
>         Managing lots of label format may cause big trouble, so we =
need
one-shot
>         label format for the evolving OTN. =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         2) Scalability is another key issue. RFC4328 style format may
result in
>         big size of the total labels, which definitely increase the =
burden
of
>         the signaling. An efficient approach is needed to carry the =
same
label
>         information but with less amount of the data, bitmap style is =
the
right
>         way to go.
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         3) For backward compatibility, if there are no implementations =
for
>         RFC4328 (or if there are no deployments it is desirable to
deprecate
>         even if it is uncomfortable for existing implementations), it =
is
very
>         safe to deprecate the old definition, and an extensible, =
efficient
and
>         scalable solution could be helpful. The label defined in
draft-zhang
>         does not overwrite RFC4328, it can allow the old definition to
continue
>         to exist.
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         Hope this can clarify your concern.
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         Authors of draft-zhang
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         ----- Original Message -----=20
>         =20
>         From: fu.xihua@zte.com.cn <mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>=20
>         =20
>         To: dbrungard@att.com
>         <mailto:dbrungard@att.com> ; lberger@labn.net
>         <mailto:lberger@labn.net> ; zhangfatai@huawei.com
>         <mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com>
>         ; diego.caviglia@ericsson.com
>         <mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com> ;
daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>         <mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>=20
>         =20
>         Cc: ccamp@ietf.org <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>=20
>         =20
>         Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 5:33 PM
>         =20
>         Subject: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension for
>         Evolutive OTN
>         =20
>         =20
>         =20
>         Hi Fatai and All,=20
>         We have presented the following two document  in the CCAMP
>         morning session. But we have no more time to further discuss =
GMPLS
>         extension for evolutive OTN=20
>         draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00.txt
>
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evo
>         l-otn-00 > =20
>         draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-01.txt
>
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-01.txt
>         > =20
>         We have a couple of comments and questions for the =
draft-zhang.=20
>         (1) draft-zhang defined the extensions including what has been
>         done in RFC4328 (i.e., ODU1, ODU2 and ODU3).=20
>               draft-ceccarellifuxh defined new Gneralized Label only =
for
>         new application (i.e., ODU0, 1.25G ODU1, 1.25G ODU2, 1.25G =
ODU3,
ODU2e,
>         ODU3e1, ODU3e2, ODUflex and ODU4).=20
>               draft-ceccarellifuxh is only a supplement of RFC4328.=20
>               How can we used RFC4328 and draft-zhang ?      =20
>               Any way, if we need to update an previous RFC, we should
>         assume that it has been deployed, not asking if someone did or
not.=20
>         (2) Do you really want to remove NMC from the Traffic
>         Parameters?=20
>               If you do that, I think we have to abandon RFC4328.=20
>         (3) The compatibility consideration in draft-zhang.=20
>            We don't think the extensions in draft-zhang can coexist =
with
>         RFC4328.=20
>            You point out "we can just do some translation or mapping =
in
>         the new nodes".=20
>            But before the translation or mapping, you have to know the
>         Generalized Label Format.  =20
>            We concern about:  =20
>            i)  How does one node know the Generalized Label format,
>         especially for ODU1, ODU2 and ODU3 base on your solution?    =20
>                 It may depend on the capability of the adjacent =
network
>         element.=20
>            ii) But how can the control plane know the adjacent network
>         element's capability without discovery mechanism?=20
>                You should know that GMPLS signaling extension should =
be
>         independent on the discovery mechanism and the configuration =
of
>         management plane.=20
>            iii) The control plane don't need to know the =
G.709(2003/03)
>         or G.709 Amendment3 network element?=20
>              =20
>              In a word, we think it can not do the translation and
>         mapping. So we can not get the compatibility with RFC4328 in
>         draft-zhang.=20
>          (4) The Generalized Label in draft-zhang=20
>             - managing a variable length label could be a mess.=20
>             - draft-zhang uses a first part of the label which has =
fixed
>         values and then a variable number of bit that is the bitmap.=20
>                The bitmap can be long from 0 to 80 bits depending on =
the
>         signal type.=20
>             - the value of the bitmap is not independent but depends =
on
>         the values of two previous fields (ODUk and ODUj) and becomes
reserved
>         in case of K=3DJ=20
>             - a bitmap label have not been used nor in SDH and not in
>         WSON where a fixed label (4 bytes) is used.=20
>         Xihua Fu=20
>         ZTE=20
>         =20
>         -------------- next part --------------
>         An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>         URL:
>
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>         4/attachment.htm >
>         =20
>         ------------------------------
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From lberger@labn.net  Sat Aug 15 04:17:58 2009
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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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To: Daniel King <daniel@olddog.co.uk>
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Cc: 'ext zhangguoying' <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>, ccamp@ietf.org, xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn, "'Jin, Lizhong \(NSN - CN/Shanghai\)'" <lizhong.jin@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
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Dan,
	There's lots of reasons to run surveys, notably implementation status
as a draft progresses.  As some may recall, I've run a few myself.
Given that we're talking about deprecating an RFC that was published 3+
years ago based on a draft that became a WG document 7+ years ago
*without* strong technical justification or WG consensus, I think such a
survey is at best premature.

The WG still needs to fully discusses this topic, and adopt a draft
solution.  If at this point the consensus of the WG is that the best
course of action is to deprecate, then I fully agree.  It will be worth
conducting such a survey.  But I believe we're not yet at this point.

Lou

On 8/14/2009 5:46 PM, Daniel King wrote:
> Hi Lou, et al. 
> 
> I have been following the discussion. A while ago in the L3VPN WG we ran an
> anonymous survey regarding the actual and planned deployment of MVPNs. Now
> putting my CCAMP WG Secretary hat on. I am wondering if it is worth doing
> something similar for this particular discussion? 
> 
> If the chairs are willing, I could carry out a quick RFC4328 survey. We
> could poll the WG and ascertain the number of RFC4328 deployments. Vendors
> could also acknowledge if they have hardware capable of supporting RFC4328
> as well. Survey responses would be sent directly to me. I would guarantee to
> keep the vendor and operator information confidential. Once I have compiled
> the results, I would report back the anonymous results.
> 
> Br, Dan. 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Lou Berger
> Sent: 14 August 2009 16:21
> To: Fatai Zhang
> Cc: xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn; ccamp@ietf.org; ext zhangguoying; Jin,
> Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai)
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
> 
> Fatai,
> 	I think the discussion on this topic is quite useful and I don't
> want
> to limit it.  That said, I personally think that compatibility (or
> coexistence) with existing standards track RFCs is very important, and
> that deprecation or replacement is a step that should only be taken as
> an exception and not the norm.
> 
> Lou
> 
> On 8/13/2009 10:07 PM, Fatai Zhang wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>  
>> If there are no implementations for RFC4328 in the industry, do you
>> really think that we need two totally different label formats and
>> intentionally introduce the backward compatibility ? Do we really like
>> trouble very much ?
>>  
>> We always admit that we should consider backward compatibility if there
>> are deployments for RFC4328.
>>  
>> I think if we really need to consider backward compatibility, we should
>> focus on how to resolve it, but not focus on merging two documents,
>> because the label formats in two documents are very different and the
>> solutions for the backward compatibility may also be different.
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> Thanks
>>  
>> Fatai
>>  
>> Advanced Technology Department
>> Wireline Networking Business Unit
>> Huawei Technologies Co., LTD.
>> Huawei Base, Bantian, Longgang,
>> Shenzhen 518129 P.R.China
>> Tel: +86-755-28972912
>> Fax: +86-755-28972935
>>
>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>     *From:* Frederick Robinson <mailto:frederick.bedford@gmail.com>
>>     *To:* Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai) <mailto:lizhong.jin@nsn.com>
>>     *Cc:* ccamp@ietf.org <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org> ; ext zhangguoying
>>     <mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn> ; xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn
>>     <mailto:xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>>     *Sent:* Friday, August 14, 2009 3:09 AM
>>     *Subject:* Re: [CCAMP] Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
>>
>>     Hi all:
>>
>>     I Agree with Lizhong.
>>
>>     We took several years to standardize the GMPLS extension for ODU1,
>>     ODU2 and ODU3.
>>     Technology of OTN is developing. We also need some time to
>>     standardize the extension for the new application. We can not forbid
>>     vendor/carrier to deploy the OTN based on RFC4328 at any time. We
>>     should keep them from waiting for the new extension. Further more,
>>     any extension can not completely promise to fit any new application
>>     in the future. So we have to deal with it step by step. There is
>>     some backward compatibility considerations and solution in
>>     draft-ceccarellifuxh. There is also a extensible lable format in
>>     draft-zhang. Why should we take a long time to survey it among the
>>     OTN service providers. Two documents should be merged as soon as
>>     possible.
>>
>>     Bedford
>>
>>     **
>>     2009/8/12 Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai) <lizhong.jin@nsn.com
>>     <mailto:lizhong.jin@nsn.com>>
>>
>>         Hi all:
>>         What I need to clarify from my side is that abandoning a RFC is
>>         not preferred in any case. If we can develop a backward solution
>>         by merging draft-ceccarellifuxh and draft-zhang, why don't we go
>>         in this way.
>>          
>>         BR
>>         Lizhong Jin
>>
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>         *From:* ext zhangguoying [mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn
>>         <mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>]
>>         *Sent:* Tuesday, August 04, 2009 22:03
>>
>>         *To:* Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai); ccamp@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>>         *Cc:* zhangfatai@huawei.com <mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com>;
>>         fu.xihua@zte.com.cn <mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>;
>>         dbrungard@att.com <mailto:dbrungard@att.com>; lberger@labn.net
>>         <mailto:lberger@labn.net>; diego.caviglia@ericsson.com
>>         <mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>;
>>         daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>         <mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>;
>>         xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn <mailto:xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>>
>>         *Subject:* Re: RE: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
>>
>>         Hi all,
>>          
>>         As many experts have explained, the label encoding with bit map
>>         in draft-zhang is  surely a better way to
>>         achieve extensibility and scalability of OTN lable.  
>>          
>>         The main issue that bit map label format might have is
>>         the backword compatibility. I think we might need to start an
>>         survey among the OTN service providers in the mailing list,  and
>>         see if there are any OTN networks deployed with GMPLS
>>         RFC4328 lable format.
>>          
>>         If there're no real deployment, we don't need to consider the
>>         compatability problem;
>>          
>>         If there're some deployment, compatability problem need to
>>         be solved . An easy way might be adding an label version bit in
>>         the label format, or some other solutions may be searched out.
>>          
>>          
>>         best regards,
>>         Guoying Zhang
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>         2009-08-04
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>         zhangguoying
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>         *·¢¼þÈË£º* Jin, Lizhong (NSN - CN/Shanghai)
>>         *·¢ËÍÊ±¼ä£º* 2009-08-04  13:34:24
>>         *ÊÕ¼þÈË£º* ccamp@ietf.org <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>>         *³­ËÍ£º* zhangfatai@huawei.com <mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com>;
>>         fu.xihua@zte.com.cn <mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>;
>>         dbrungard@att.com <mailto:dbrungard@att.com>; lberger@labn.net
>>         <mailto:lberger@labn.net>; diego.caviglia@ericsson.com
>>         <mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>;
>>         daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>         <mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>;
>>         zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn
>>         <mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>;
>>         xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn <mailto:xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>>         *Ö÷Ìâ£º* RE: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
>>         Hi Fatai and all:
>>         I agree with the issues of excessive number of labels if using the
> same
>>         label concept of RFC4328. By using bit map for label encoding is a
> good
>>         idea. And from my understanding,
>>         draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00 can merge
> this bit
>>         map idea if Fatai agree.
>>          
>>         For backward compatibility, we can not assume that RFC4328 is not
>>         deployed unless we can provide some kind of survey report. So
> currently
>>         the right assumption is that RFC4328 has been deployed, and
> backward
>>         compatibity should be considered.
>>          
>>         Best Regards
>>         Lizhong Jin
>>          
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>          
>>         Message: 1
>>         Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:33:56 +0200
>>         From: "BELOTTI SERGIO"  <Sergio.Belotti@alcatel-lucent.it
>>         <mailto:Sergio.Belotti@alcatel-lucent.it> >
>>         Subject: [CCAMP] R: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension
>>         forEvolutive OTN
>>         To: "Fatai"  <zhangfatai@huawei.com
>>         <mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com> >,  <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn
>>         <mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn> >,
>>         <dbrungard@att.com <mailto:dbrungard@att.com> >, 
>>         <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net> >,
>>         <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com <mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>
>> ,
>>         <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>         <mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com> >,
>>         <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn
>>         <mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn> >,
>>         <xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn <mailto:xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn> >
>>         Cc: ccamp@ietf.org <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>>         Message-ID:
>>
> <3F44186D7141E247972EAC6655B0A29101FA7A56@FRVELSMBS21.ad2.ad.alcatel.com
> <mailto:3F44186D7141E247972EAC6655B0A29101FA7A56@FRVELSMBS21.ad2.ad.alcatel.
> com>
>>         >
>>         Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>          
>>         Dear Fatai and all,
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>         We agree on the major points raised by Fatai as general issue to
> be
>>         solved in the context of extension needed to cope with new
> containers
>>         defined in ITU  q11 context, in addition to handling ODU
> multiplexing
>>         scenarios in existing OTN.
>>          
>>         There are two basic points that brings to the need to update the
> RFC4328
>>         anyway.
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>         1) the present RFC does not permit the link based negotiation  for
> time
>>         slot allocation . No information about tributary port numbers is
> present
>>         and only in case we have "single layer" , no multiplexing LO --
>>         > HO you
>>         can apply . So this is a lack against the original G.709 even
> without
>>         considering G.709 Am3 .
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>         2) Scalability: The extension required in the context of new OTN
> with
>>         the introduction of ODU0, ODU4, and above all ODUflex , required a
> real
>>         modifications of the structure of the label to avoid real big size
> of
>>         number of labels to transmit offloading signalling session.
> Extension
>>         based on RFC4328 logic do not scale when ODU-flex is used. Large
> ODU
>>         flex containers will generate
>>          
>>         an excessive number of labels (in principle up to 80 per link)
> causing
>>         problems with the size of the RSVP-TE message.
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>         This two points together call to the need to change something in
> RFC.
>>          
>>         Backward compatibility aspects, present in all the drafts, are
> surely to
>>         be considered and if there are single layer systems deployed using
>>         RFC4328 this should be grandfathered.
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>         Best Regards
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>         Sergio
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>         Sergio Belotti
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>         CTO Optics Division
>>          
>>         Alcatel-Lucent
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>         +39 039 6863033
>>          
>>         +39 039 6863590
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>         ________________________________
>>          
>>         Da: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org>] Per conto di
>>         Fatai
>>         Inviato: mercoled? 29 luglio 2009 18.33
>>         A: fu.xihua@zte.com.cn
>>         <mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; dbrungard@att.com
>>         <mailto:dbrungard@att.com>; lberger@labn.net
>>         <mailto:lberger@labn.net>;
>>         diego.caviglia@ericsson.com
>>         <mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.
> com
>>         <mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>;
>>         zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn
>>         <mailto:zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn
> <mailto:xuyunbin@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>>         Cc: ccamp@ietf.org <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>>         Oggetto: Re: [CCAMP] Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling
> Extension
>>         forEvolutive OTN
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>         Hi all,
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>         To support the current verison of G.709, we think the label format
>>         defined in RFC4328 need to be re-defined anyway. The new OTN label
>>         format should support the whole ODU sets, not only the ODU1, 2,
> and 3,
>>         but also ODU0, ODU4, even ODUFlex. The following three aspects
> should be
>>         considered carefully:
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>         1) The extensibility of the label format is the first thing we
> should
>>         consider. With the development of OTN technology, RFC4328 label
> format
>>         style needs to be extended to support the new bitrate ODU (eg.
> ODU5,
>>         6...). By the end, we may need keep extending the label formats.
>>         Managing lots of label format may cause big trouble, so we need
> one-shot
>>         label format for the evolving OTN.  
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>         2) Scalability is another key issue. RFC4328 style format may
> result in
>>         big size of the total labels, which definitely increase the burden
> of
>>         the signaling. An efficient approach is needed to carry the same
> label
>>         information but with less amount of the data, bitmap style is the
> right
>>         way to go.
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>         3) For backward compatibility, if there are no implementations for
>>         RFC4328 (or if there are no deployments it is desirable to
> deprecate
>>         even if it is uncomfortable for existing implementations), it is
> very
>>         safe to deprecate the old definition, and an extensible, efficient
> and
>>         scalable solution could be helpful. The label defined in
> draft-zhang
>>         does not overwrite RFC4328, it can allow the old definition to
> continue
>>         to exist.
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>         Hope this can clarify your concern.
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>         Authors of draft-zhang
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>         ----- Original Message ----- 
>>          
>>         From: fu.xihua@zte.com.cn <mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn> 
>>          
>>         To: dbrungard@att.com
>>         <mailto:dbrungard@att.com> ; lberger@labn.net
>>         <mailto:lberger@labn.net> ; zhangfatai@huawei.com
>>         <mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com>
>>         ; diego.caviglia@ericsson.com
>>         <mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com> ;
> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>         <mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com> 
>>          
>>         Cc: ccamp@ietf.org <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org> 
>>          
>>         Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 5:33 PM
>>          
>>         Subject: Discussion about the GMPLS Signaling Extension for
>>         Evolutive OTN
>>          
>>          
>>          
>>         Hi Fatai and All, 
>>         We have presented the following two document  in the CCAMP
>>         morning session. But we have no more time to further discuss GMPLS
>>         extension for evolutive OTN 
>>         draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evol-otn-00.txt
>>
> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ceccarellifuxh-ccamp-gmpls-ext-for-evo
>>         l-otn-00 >  
>>         draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-01.txt
>>
> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-01.txt
>>         >  
>>         We have a couple of comments and questions for the draft-zhang. 
>>         (1) draft-zhang defined the extensions including what has been
>>         done in RFC4328 (i.e., ODU1, ODU2 and ODU3). 
>>               draft-ceccarellifuxh defined new Gneralized Label only for
>>         new application (i.e., ODU0, 1.25G ODU1, 1.25G ODU2, 1.25G ODU3,
> ODU2e,
>>         ODU3e1, ODU3e2, ODUflex and ODU4). 
>>               draft-ceccarellifuxh is only a supplement of RFC4328. 
>>               How can we used RFC4328 and draft-zhang ?       
>>               Any way, if we need to update an previous RFC, we should
>>         assume that it has been deployed, not asking if someone did or
> not. 
>>         (2) Do you really want to remove NMC from the Traffic
>>         Parameters? 
>>               If you do that, I think we have to abandon RFC4328. 
>>         (3) The compatibility consideration in draft-zhang. 
>>            We don't think the extensions in draft-zhang can coexist with
>>         RFC4328. 
>>            You point out "we can just do some translation or mapping in
>>         the new nodes". 
>>            But before the translation or mapping, you have to know the
>>         Generalized Label Format.   
>>            We concern about:   
>>            i)  How does one node know the Generalized Label format,
>>         especially for ODU1, ODU2 and ODU3 base on your solution?     
>>                 It may depend on the capability of the adjacent network
>>         element. 
>>            ii) But how can the control plane know the adjacent network
>>         element's capability without discovery mechanism? 
>>                You should know that GMPLS signaling extension should be
>>         independent on the discovery mechanism and the configuration of
>>         management plane. 
>>            iii) The control plane don't need to know the G.709(2003/03)
>>         or G.709 Amendment3 network element? 
>>               
>>              In a word, we think it can not do the translation and
>>         mapping. So we can not get the compatibility with RFC4328 in
>>         draft-zhang. 
>>          (4) The Generalized Label in draft-zhang 
>>             - managing a variable length label could be a mess. 
>>             - draft-zhang uses a first part of the label which has fixed
>>         values and then a variable number of bit that is the bitmap. 
>>                The bitmap can be long from 0 to 80 bits depending on the
>>         signal type. 
>>             - the value of the bitmap is not independent but depends on
>>         the values of two previous fields (ODUk and ODUj) and becomes
> reserved
>>         in case of K=J 
>>             - a bitmap label have not been used nor in SDH and not in
>>         WSON where a fixed label (4 bytes) is used. 
>>         Xihua Fu 
>>         ZTE 
>>          
>>         -------------- next part --------------
>>         An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>         URL:
>>
> <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ccamp/attachments/20090730/bfcec50
>>         4/attachment.htm >
>>          
>>         ------------------------------
>>          
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         CCAMP mailing list
>>         CCAMP@ietf.org <mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org>
>>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>          
>>          
>>         End of CCAMP Digest, Vol 14, Issue 26
>>         *************************************
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         CCAMP mailing list
>>         CCAMP@ietf.org <mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org>
>>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
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>>
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>     CCAMP mailing list
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> 
> 
> 

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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: OSPFv2 Routing Protocols Extensions for ASON Routing
	Author(s)	: D. Papadimitriou
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-09.txt
	Pages		: 29
	Date		: 2009-8-16
	
The ITU-T has defined an architecture and requirements for operating
   an Automatically Switched Optical Network (ASON).

   The Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) protocol suite
   is designed to provide a control plane for a range of network
   technologies including optical networks such as time division
   multiplexing (TDM) networks including SONET/SDH and Optical Transport
   Networks (OTNs), and lambda switching optical networks.

   The requirements for GMPLS routing to satisfy the requirements of
   ASON routing, and an evaluation of existing GMPLS routing protocols
   are provided in other documents. This document defines extensions to 
   the OSPFv2 Link State Routing Protocol to meet the requirements for 
   routing in an ASON.

   Note that this work is scoped to the requirements and evaluation
   expressed in RFC 4258 and RFC 4652 and the ITU-T Recommendations
   current when those documents were written. Future extensions of
   revisions of this work may be necessary if the ITU-T Recommendations
   are revised or if new requirements are introduced into a revision of
   RFC 4258.

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From lberger@labn.net  Tue Aug 18 17:39:25 2009
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Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 20:40:52 -0400
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Cc: ccamp@ietf.org, 'Henk Uijterwaal' <henk@ripe.net>, 'IETF IPPM WG' <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
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Reinhard,
	Thank you very much for the comments.

draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm Authors,
	Please address the comments/discussion points raised.

Lou

On 8/18/2009 8:23 AM, Rschrage wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> sorry for late response- 
> 
> Nevertheless here is a first edition of my revision of doc
> draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06.
> 
> The doc has been saved in Word 2003 format to easily track changes.
> I am using Kaspersky Anti Virus 2010 software so I trust there should be no
> unpleasant surprises when downloading the attached word doc.
> 
> 
> I thought it would be advisable to first address the suggested comments and
> questions upto and including the uni-directional LSP setup delay metric and
> after that to continue with the bi-directional and sample definitions as
> covered in the doc.
> 
> Please let me have your thoughts on this.
> 
> Many thanks.
> Reinhard Schrage
> Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
> Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
> reinhard@schrageconsult.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou
> Berger
> Sent: Dienstag, 28. Juli 2009 14:59
> To: Henk Uijterwaal
> Cc: zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS;
> sunwq@mit.edu; IETF IPPM WG
> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
> 
> Hank/Reinhard,
> 
> Thank you very much for undertaking this review.  Please cc
> ccamp@ietf.org on any comments you may have.
> 
> Lou
> 
> On 7/28/2009 6:47 AM, Henk Uijterwaal wrote:
>> Lou, others,
>>
>>> We received the request for a review of a document currently under
>>> discussion in the CCAMP WG, please see below.  Is there anybody who
>>> has time to do this review in the near future?
>> Reinhard Schrage (rschrage@schrageconsult.net) has voluntered to do this.
>>
>> Reinhard: please post anything you find to both the list and the authors.
>> And thank you for doing this.
>>
>> Henk
>>
>>> Matt & Henk
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Subject: IPPM expert review request
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:57:41 -0400
>>> From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
>>> To: ippm-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>>> CC: Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS <dbrungard@att.com>, sunwq@mit.edu,   
>>> zhangguoying <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>     We, the CCAMP WG chairs, would like to request that the IPPM WG
>>> review
>>> a draft that is progressing through the CCAMP WG.  This work applies
>>> IPPM approaches to GMPLS.  The document we'd like reviewed is
>>> available at:
>>>
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06
>>>
>>> Is this acceptable?  Can you undertake this review?  Alternatively, we
>>> can just last call the document in your WG (it has already passed CCAMP
>>> WG LC).
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Lou (and Deborah)
>>>
>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

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Subject: [CCAMP] 2nd Working group last call: draft-ietf-ccamp-pc-spc-rsvpte-ext
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
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Hi Reinhard,

Many thanks for doing the careful review. We appreciate your many wording 
suggestions. We will go through these one by one and adopt those we feel 
appropriate. In this email I will not list all the comments since these will 
not lead to major technical changes.

Below I try to respond to the points you raised in the revision.

RS1.
This would imply that the metric may produce a range of several values at 
one time with the minimum value to be taken from that range.
I believe what the authors are trying to say is, that the LSP Setup Delay 
Metric provides a lower bound on all possible LSP Delay Metrics of actually 
instantiated LSPs, or in other words: an actual LSP Delay Metric cannot get 
smaller than an LSP Setup Delay Metric.
[sunwq]
This point is raised regarding the motivation of the sigleton definition of 
Single Uni-directional LSP Setup Delay (ie. 4.1, para 2). We are trying to 
say that the minimum value of this metric reflects the (likely) single lsp 
setup delay when the control plane is lightly loaded. The formal definition 
of the minimum value is in "14.1 The minimum of metric"
In fact we have inherited this from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681, page 2 
section 1.1 bullet 3).

RS2.
How? Should there be a methodology be defined for this?
[sunwq]
This point is raised regarding the sentense in our methodologies sections - 
"Make sure that the network has enough resource to set up the requested 
LSP."
We have assumed that test personnel should have adequate expertise in 
allocating enough resources for the testing. The allocation of resources for 
the testing purpose can be very test specific and we believe it is quite 
outside the scope of this document.

RS3.
Too vague? As both timestamps are to be taken on the same ingress node, they 
should be taken at the same application/network level.
[sunwq]
This point is raised regarding the sentense "If the corresponding RESV 
message arrives within a reasonable period of time, take the timestamp (T2) 
as soon as possible upon receipt of the message."
Yes, ideally the timestamp should be taken immediately after the reception 
of the RESV message. The wording "as soon as possible" is used to allow for 
some flexibility when RESV message needs to be propagated to certain modules 
where timestamp-taking is most appropriate.
And again, this text is inherited from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681 page 
7, bullet 3).

Thanks again and looking forward to your further comments and revisions.

Weiqiang

--
Weiqiang Sun
Shanghai Jiao Tong University
http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 8:23 PM
To: "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>; "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
Cc: <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A,	ATTLABS'" 
<dbrungard@att.com>; <sunwq@mit.edu>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" <ippm@ietf.org>; 
<ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]

> Hello,
>
> sorry for late response-
>
> Nevertheless here is a first edition of my revision of doc
> draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06.
>
> The doc has been saved in Word 2003 format to easily track changes.
> I am using Kaspersky Anti Virus 2010 software so I trust there should be 
> no
> unpleasant surprises when downloading the attached word doc.
>
>
> I thought it would be advisable to first address the suggested comments 
> and
> questions upto and including the uni-directional LSP setup delay metric 
> and
> after that to continue with the bi-directional and sample definitions as
> covered in the doc.
>
> Please let me have your thoughts on this.
>
> Many thanks.
> Reinhard Schrage
> Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
> Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
> reinhard@schrageconsult.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of 
> Lou
> Berger
> Sent: Dienstag, 28. Juli 2009 14:59
> To: Henk Uijterwaal
> Cc: zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS;
> sunwq@mit.edu; IETF IPPM WG
> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>
> Hank/Reinhard,
>
> Thank you very much for undertaking this review.  Please cc
> ccamp@ietf.org on any comments you may have.
>
> Lou
>
> On 7/28/2009 6:47 AM, Henk Uijterwaal wrote:
>> Lou, others,
>>
>>> We received the request for a review of a document currently under
>>> discussion in the CCAMP WG, please see below.  Is there anybody who
>>> has time to do this review in the near future?
>>
>> Reinhard Schrage (rschrage@schrageconsult.net) has voluntered to do this.
>>
>> Reinhard: please post anything you find to both the list and the authors.
>> And thank you for doing this.
>>
>> Henk
>>
>>>
>>> Matt & Henk
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Subject: IPPM expert review request
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:57:41 -0400
>>> From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
>>> To: ippm-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>>> CC: Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS <dbrungard@att.com>, sunwq@mit.edu,
>>> zhangguoying <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>     We, the CCAMP WG chairs, would like to request that the IPPM WG
>>> review
>>> a draft that is progressing through the CCAMP WG.  This work applies
>>> IPPM approaches to GMPLS.  The document we'd like reviewed is
>>> available at:
>>>
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06
>>>
>>> Is this acceptable?  Can you undertake this review?  Alternatively, we
>>> can just last call the document in your WG (it has already passed CCAMP
>>> WG LC).
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Lou (and Deborah)
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
> 

From sunwq@MIT.EDU  Wed Aug 19 00:28:33 2009
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From: "Weiqiang Sun" <sunwq@MIT.EDU>
To: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>, "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>, "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
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Cc: ccamp@ietf.org, zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn, 'IETF IPPM WG' <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
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More responses below:

RS4.
Should be more specific as to why this metric is no simple function of 
single uni-directional LSP Setup Delay metric, i.e. why can it not be 
deduced from single LSP Setup Delay?
[sunwq]
This point is raised regarding the sentence "The time needed to setup a 
large number of LSPs during a short time period can not be deduced by single 
LSP setup delay."
One reason is that when a large number of LSPs in being setup during a short 
period of time, the control plane may be crowded or even overwhelmed by the 
large number of signaling and routing messages. This may significantly slow 
down the processing of a particular signaling message, which will results in 
longer LSP provisioning delays.
Are you suggesting that we add similar explanations to the document? We'd 
love to do that if you feel it is necessary.

RS5.
The current definition only addresses multiple uni-directional LSP setups 
between two nodes ID0 and ID1. What about the the case when ID0 is to setup 
multiple uni-directional LSP setups to different egress nodes ID1, ID2, 
ID3,.,IDN?
[sunwq]
Yes, it is a useful case. Likewise you would expect a case to establish a 
varied number of (instead of one) LSPs to a set of destinations. Our 
suggestion is that this case is approached by integrating the defined 
methodologies of single/multiple LSPs provisioning delay, in the form of a 
particular testing case, rather than a formal testing methodology. This is 
in fact a trade-off between complexity and accuracy.

Best regards,
Weiqiang

--
Weiqiang Sun
Shanghai Jiao Tong University
http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Weiqiang Sun" <sunwq@mit.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:48 PM
To: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>; "'Lou Berger'" 
<lberger@labn.net>; "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
Cc: <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A,	ATTLABS'" 
<dbrungard@att.com>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" <ippm@ietf.org>; <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]

> Hi Reinhard,
>
> Many thanks for doing the careful review. We appreciate your many wording 
> suggestions. We will go through these one by one and adopt those we feel 
> appropriate. In this email I will not list all the comments since these 
> will not lead to major technical changes.
>
> Below I try to respond to the points you raised in the revision.
>
> RS1.
> This would imply that the metric may produce a range of several values at 
> one time with the minimum value to be taken from that range.
> I believe what the authors are trying to say is, that the LSP Setup Delay 
> Metric provides a lower bound on all possible LSP Delay Metrics of 
> actually instantiated LSPs, or in other words: an actual LSP Delay Metric 
> cannot get smaller than an LSP Setup Delay Metric.
> [sunwq]
> This point is raised regarding the motivation of the sigleton definition 
> of Single Uni-directional LSP Setup Delay (ie. 4.1, para 2). We are trying 
> to say that the minimum value of this metric reflects the (likely) single 
> lsp setup delay when the control plane is lightly loaded. The formal 
> definition of the minimum value is in "14.1 The minimum of metric"
> In fact we have inherited this from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681, page 
> 2 section 1.1 bullet 3).
>
> RS2.
> How? Should there be a methodology be defined for this?
> [sunwq]
> This point is raised regarding the sentense in our methodologies 
> sections - "Make sure that the network has enough resource to set up the 
> requested LSP."
> We have assumed that test personnel should have adequate expertise in 
> allocating enough resources for the testing. The allocation of resources 
> for the testing purpose can be very test specific and we believe it is 
> quite outside the scope of this document.
>
> RS3.
> Too vague? As both timestamps are to be taken on the same ingress node, 
> they should be taken at the same application/network level.
> [sunwq]
> This point is raised regarding the sentense "If the corresponding RESV 
> message arrives within a reasonable period of time, take the timestamp 
> (T2) as soon as possible upon receipt of the message."
> Yes, ideally the timestamp should be taken immediately after the reception 
> of the RESV message. The wording "as soon as possible" is used to allow 
> for some flexibility when RESV message needs to be propagated to certain 
> modules where timestamp-taking is most appropriate.
> And again, this text is inherited from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681 
> page 7, bullet 3).
>
> Thanks again and looking forward to your further comments and revisions.
>
> Weiqiang
>
> --
> Weiqiang Sun
> Shanghai Jiao Tong University
> http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 8:23 PM
> To: "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>; "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
> Cc: <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS'" 
> <dbrungard@att.com>; <sunwq@mit.edu>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" <ippm@ietf.org>; 
> <ccamp@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> sorry for late response-
>>
>> Nevertheless here is a first edition of my revision of doc
>> draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06.
>>
>> The doc has been saved in Word 2003 format to easily track changes.
>> I am using Kaspersky Anti Virus 2010 software so I trust there should be 
>> no
>> unpleasant surprises when downloading the attached word doc.
>>
>>
>> I thought it would be advisable to first address the suggested comments 
>> and
>> questions upto and including the uni-directional LSP setup delay metric 
>> and
>> after that to continue with the bi-directional and sample definitions as
>> covered in the doc.
>>
>> Please let me have your thoughts on this.
>>
>> Many thanks.
>> Reinhard Schrage
>> Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
>> Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
>> reinhard@schrageconsult.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of 
>> Lou
>> Berger
>> Sent: Dienstag, 28. Juli 2009 14:59
>> To: Henk Uijterwaal
>> Cc: zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS;
>> sunwq@mit.edu; IETF IPPM WG
>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>
>> Hank/Reinhard,
>>
>> Thank you very much for undertaking this review.  Please cc
>> ccamp@ietf.org on any comments you may have.
>>
>> Lou
>>
>> On 7/28/2009 6:47 AM, Henk Uijterwaal wrote:
>>> Lou, others,
>>>
>>>> We received the request for a review of a document currently under
>>>> discussion in the CCAMP WG, please see below.  Is there anybody who
>>>> has time to do this review in the near future?
>>>
>>> Reinhard Schrage (rschrage@schrageconsult.net) has voluntered to do 
>>> this.
>>>
>>> Reinhard: please post anything you find to both the list and the 
>>> authors.
>>> And thank you for doing this.
>>>
>>> Henk
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Matt & Henk
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> Subject: IPPM expert review request
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:57:41 -0400
>>>> From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
>>>> To: ippm-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>>>> CC: Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS <dbrungard@att.com>, sunwq@mit.edu,
>>>> zhangguoying <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>     We, the CCAMP WG chairs, would like to request that the IPPM WG
>>>> review
>>>> a draft that is progressing through the CCAMP WG.  This work applies
>>>> IPPM approaches to GMPLS.  The document we'd like reviewed is
>>>> available at:
>>>>
>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06
>>>>
>>>> Is this acceptable?  Can you undertake this review?  Alternatively, we
>>>> can just last call the document in your WG (it has already passed CCAMP
>>>> WG LC).
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Lou (and Deborah)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ippm mailing list
>> ippm@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>> 

From rschrage@schrageconsult.net  Wed Aug 19 06:58:24 2009
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To: "'Weiqiang Sun'" <sunwq@MIT.EDU>, "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>, "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
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Hi all,

pls find attached a further updated edition of previous revised doc
draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06.

I believe this is as far as we can go for the moment before a mutual
satisfactory understanding has been reached and a new draft has been issued
by the authors.

Again, pls feel free to comment.

Many thanks.
Brgds.
Reinhard Schrage
Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
reinhard@schrageconsult.com

-----Original Message-----
From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Weiqiang Sun
Sent: Mittwoch, 19. August 2009 09:28
To: Rschrage; 'Lou Berger'; 'Henk Uijterwaal'
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org; zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; 'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A,
ATTLABS'; 'IETF IPPM WG'
Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]

More responses below:

RS4.
Should be more specific as to why this metric is no simple function of 
single uni-directional LSP Setup Delay metric, i.e. why can it not be 
deduced from single LSP Setup Delay?
[sunwq]
This point is raised regarding the sentence "The time needed to setup a 
large number of LSPs during a short time period can not be deduced by single

LSP setup delay."
One reason is that when a large number of LSPs in being setup during a short

period of time, the control plane may be crowded or even overwhelmed by the 
large number of signaling and routing messages. This may significantly slow 
down the processing of a particular signaling message, which will results in

longer LSP provisioning delays.
Are you suggesting that we add similar explanations to the document? We'd 
love to do that if you feel it is necessary.

RS5.
The current definition only addresses multiple uni-directional LSP setups 
between two nodes ID0 and ID1. What about the the case when ID0 is to setup 
multiple uni-directional LSP setups to different egress nodes ID1, ID2, 
ID3,.,IDN?
[sunwq]
Yes, it is a useful case. Likewise you would expect a case to establish a 
varied number of (instead of one) LSPs to a set of destinations. Our 
suggestion is that this case is approached by integrating the defined 
methodologies of single/multiple LSPs provisioning delay, in the form of a 
particular testing case, rather than a formal testing methodology. This is 
in fact a trade-off between complexity and accuracy.

Best regards,
Weiqiang

--
Weiqiang Sun
Shanghai Jiao Tong University
http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Weiqiang Sun" <sunwq@mit.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:48 PM
To: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>; "'Lou Berger'" 
<lberger@labn.net>; "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
Cc: <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A,	ATTLABS'" 
<dbrungard@att.com>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" <ippm@ietf.org>; <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]

> Hi Reinhard,
>
> Many thanks for doing the careful review. We appreciate your many wording 
> suggestions. We will go through these one by one and adopt those we feel 
> appropriate. In this email I will not list all the comments since these 
> will not lead to major technical changes.
>
> Below I try to respond to the points you raised in the revision.
>
> RS1.
> This would imply that the metric may produce a range of several values at 
> one time with the minimum value to be taken from that range.
> I believe what the authors are trying to say is, that the LSP Setup Delay 
> Metric provides a lower bound on all possible LSP Delay Metrics of 
> actually instantiated LSPs, or in other words: an actual LSP Delay Metric 
> cannot get smaller than an LSP Setup Delay Metric.
> [sunwq]
> This point is raised regarding the motivation of the sigleton definition 
> of Single Uni-directional LSP Setup Delay (ie. 4.1, para 2). We are trying

> to say that the minimum value of this metric reflects the (likely) single 
> lsp setup delay when the control plane is lightly loaded. The formal 
> definition of the minimum value is in "14.1 The minimum of metric"
> In fact we have inherited this from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681, page

> 2 section 1.1 bullet 3).
>
> RS2.
> How? Should there be a methodology be defined for this?
> [sunwq]
> This point is raised regarding the sentense in our methodologies 
> sections - "Make sure that the network has enough resource to set up the 
> requested LSP."
> We have assumed that test personnel should have adequate expertise in 
> allocating enough resources for the testing. The allocation of resources 
> for the testing purpose can be very test specific and we believe it is 
> quite outside the scope of this document.
>
> RS3.
> Too vague? As both timestamps are to be taken on the same ingress node, 
> they should be taken at the same application/network level.
> [sunwq]
> This point is raised regarding the sentense "If the corresponding RESV 
> message arrives within a reasonable period of time, take the timestamp 
> (T2) as soon as possible upon receipt of the message."
> Yes, ideally the timestamp should be taken immediately after the reception

> of the RESV message. The wording "as soon as possible" is used to allow 
> for some flexibility when RESV message needs to be propagated to certain 
> modules where timestamp-taking is most appropriate.
> And again, this text is inherited from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681 
> page 7, bullet 3).
>
> Thanks again and looking forward to your further comments and revisions.
>
> Weiqiang
>
> --
> Weiqiang Sun
> Shanghai Jiao Tong University
> http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 8:23 PM
> To: "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>; "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
> Cc: <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS'" 
> <dbrungard@att.com>; <sunwq@mit.edu>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" <ippm@ietf.org>; 
> <ccamp@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> sorry for late response-
>>
>> Nevertheless here is a first edition of my revision of doc
>> draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06.
>>
>> The doc has been saved in Word 2003 format to easily track changes.
>> I am using Kaspersky Anti Virus 2010 software so I trust there should be 
>> no
>> unpleasant surprises when downloading the attached word doc.
>>
>>
>> I thought it would be advisable to first address the suggested comments 
>> and
>> questions upto and including the uni-directional LSP setup delay metric 
>> and
>> after that to continue with the bi-directional and sample definitions as
>> covered in the doc.
>>
>> Please let me have your thoughts on this.
>>
>> Many thanks.
>> Reinhard Schrage
>> Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
>> Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
>> reinhard@schrageconsult.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of 
>> Lou
>> Berger
>> Sent: Dienstag, 28. Juli 2009 14:59
>> To: Henk Uijterwaal
>> Cc: zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS;
>> sunwq@mit.edu; IETF IPPM WG
>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>
>> Hank/Reinhard,
>>
>> Thank you very much for undertaking this review.  Please cc
>> ccamp@ietf.org on any comments you may have.
>>
>> Lou
>>
>> On 7/28/2009 6:47 AM, Henk Uijterwaal wrote:
>>> Lou, others,
>>>
>>>> We received the request for a review of a document currently under
>>>> discussion in the CCAMP WG, please see below.  Is there anybody who
>>>> has time to do this review in the near future?
>>>
>>> Reinhard Schrage (rschrage@schrageconsult.net) has voluntered to do 
>>> this.
>>>
>>> Reinhard: please post anything you find to both the list and the 
>>> authors.
>>> And thank you for doing this.
>>>
>>> Henk
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Matt & Henk
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> Subject: IPPM expert review request
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:57:41 -0400
>>>> From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
>>>> To: ippm-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>>>> CC: Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS <dbrungard@att.com>, sunwq@mit.edu,
>>>> zhangguoying <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>     We, the CCAMP WG chairs, would like to request that the IPPM WG
>>>> review
>>>> a draft that is progressing through the CCAMP WG.  This work applies
>>>> IPPM approaches to GMPLS.  The document we'd like reviewed is
>>>> available at:
>>>>
>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06
>>>>
>>>> Is this acceptable?  Can you undertake this review?  Alternatively, we
>>>> can just last call the document in your WG (it has already passed CCAMP
>>>> WG LC).
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Lou (and Deborah)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ippm mailing list
>> ippm@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>> 
_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

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------=_NextPart_000_000D_01CA20E5.C7379A30--


From tom.nadeau@bt.com  Wed Aug 19 08:18:29 2009
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Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 11:18:29 -0400
From: "Thomas D. Nadeau" <tom.nadeau@bt.com>
To: Rschrage <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>, 'Weiqiang Sun' <sunwq@MIT.EDU>, 'Lou Berger' <lberger@labn.net>, 'Henk Uijterwaal' <henk@ripe.net>
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Cc: ccamp@ietf.org, zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn, 'IETF IPPM WG' <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
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    Lou,

    I'd like to ask a question about this draft. How does it relate to (or
not) to any of the GMPLS MIBs? As you know, the MIBs contain performance
counters. If these metrics present in this draft do not coincide with the
MIBs, this will cause more work for implementations. In particular, the
following statement in this document worries me:

   On the other hand, it can also be used in operational environments for
   carriers to monitor the control plane operation in real-time.  For
   example, a new object can be added to GMPLS TE STD MIB [RFC4802] so
   that the current and past control plane performance can be monitored
   through network management systems.  The extension of TE-MIB to
   support the defined metrics is outside the scope of this document.


    Does the WG really want to progress a document that requires these
changes?

    --Tom



On 8/19/09 9:57 AM, "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net> wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> pls find attached a further updated edition of previous revised doc
> draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06.
> 
> I believe this is as far as we can go for the moment before a mutual
> satisfactory understanding has been reached and a new draft has been issued
> by the authors.
> 
> Again, pls feel free to comment.
> 
> Many thanks.
> Brgds.
> Reinhard Schrage
> Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
> Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
> reinhard@schrageconsult.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Weiqiang Sun
> Sent: Mittwoch, 19. August 2009 09:28
> To: Rschrage; 'Lou Berger'; 'Henk Uijterwaal'
> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org; zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; 'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A,
> ATTLABS'; 'IETF IPPM WG'
> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
> 
> More responses below:
> 
> RS4.
> Should be more specific as to why this metric is no simple function of
> single uni-directional LSP Setup Delay metric, i.e. why can it not be
> deduced from single LSP Setup Delay?
> [sunwq]
> This point is raised regarding the sentence "The time needed to setup a
> large number of LSPs during a short time period can not be deduced by single
> 
> LSP setup delay."
> One reason is that when a large number of LSPs in being setup during a short
> 
> period of time, the control plane may be crowded or even overwhelmed by the
> large number of signaling and routing messages. This may significantly slow
> down the processing of a particular signaling message, which will results in
> 
> longer LSP provisioning delays.
> Are you suggesting that we add similar explanations to the document? We'd
> love to do that if you feel it is necessary.
> 
> RS5.
> The current definition only addresses multiple uni-directional LSP setups
> between two nodes ID0 and ID1. What about the the case when ID0 is to setup
> multiple uni-directional LSP setups to different egress nodes ID1, ID2,
> ID3,.,IDN?
> [sunwq]
> Yes, it is a useful case. Likewise you would expect a case to establish a
> varied number of (instead of one) LSPs to a set of destinations. Our
> suggestion is that this case is approached by integrating the defined
> methodologies of single/multiple LSPs provisioning delay, in the form of a
> particular testing case, rather than a formal testing methodology. This is
> in fact a trade-off between complexity and accuracy.
> 
> Best regards,
> Weiqiang
> 
> --
> Weiqiang Sun
> Shanghai Jiao Tong University
> http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Weiqiang Sun" <sunwq@mit.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:48 PM
> To: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>; "'Lou Berger'"
> <lberger@labn.net>; "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
> Cc: <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS'"
> <dbrungard@att.com>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" <ippm@ietf.org>; <ccamp@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
> 
>> Hi Reinhard,
>> 
>> Many thanks for doing the careful review. We appreciate your many wording
>> suggestions. We will go through these one by one and adopt those we feel
>> appropriate. In this email I will not list all the comments since these
>> will not lead to major technical changes.
>> 
>> Below I try to respond to the points you raised in the revision.
>> 
>> RS1.
>> This would imply that the metric may produce a range of several values at
>> one time with the minimum value to be taken from that range.
>> I believe what the authors are trying to say is, that the LSP Setup Delay
>> Metric provides a lower bound on all possible LSP Delay Metrics of
>> actually instantiated LSPs, or in other words: an actual LSP Delay Metric
>> cannot get smaller than an LSP Setup Delay Metric.
>> [sunwq]
>> This point is raised regarding the motivation of the sigleton definition
>> of Single Uni-directional LSP Setup Delay (ie. 4.1, para 2). We are trying
> 
>> to say that the minimum value of this metric reflects the (likely) single
>> lsp setup delay when the control plane is lightly loaded. The formal
>> definition of the minimum value is in "14.1 The minimum of metric"
>> In fact we have inherited this from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681, page
> 
>> 2 section 1.1 bullet 3).
>> 
>> RS2.
>> How? Should there be a methodology be defined for this?
>> [sunwq]
>> This point is raised regarding the sentense in our methodologies
>> sections - "Make sure that the network has enough resource to set up the
>> requested LSP."
>> We have assumed that test personnel should have adequate expertise in
>> allocating enough resources for the testing. The allocation of resources
>> for the testing purpose can be very test specific and we believe it is
>> quite outside the scope of this document.
>> 
>> RS3.
>> Too vague? As both timestamps are to be taken on the same ingress node,
>> they should be taken at the same application/network level.
>> [sunwq]
>> This point is raised regarding the sentense "If the corresponding RESV
>> message arrives within a reasonable period of time, take the timestamp
>> (T2) as soon as possible upon receipt of the message."
>> Yes, ideally the timestamp should be taken immediately after the reception
> 
>> of the RESV message. The wording "as soon as possible" is used to allow
>> for some flexibility when RESV message needs to be propagated to certain
>> modules where timestamp-taking is most appropriate.
>> And again, this text is inherited from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681
>> page 7, bullet 3).
>> 
>> Thanks again and looking forward to your further comments and revisions.
>> 
>> Weiqiang
>> 
>> --
>> Weiqiang Sun
>> Shanghai Jiao Tong University
>> http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/
>> 
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 8:23 PM
>> To: "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>; "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
>> Cc: <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS'"
>> <dbrungard@att.com>; <sunwq@mit.edu>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" <ippm@ietf.org>;
>> <ccamp@ietf.org>
>> Subject: RE: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> sorry for late response-
>>> 
>>> Nevertheless here is a first edition of my revision of doc
>>> draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06.
>>> 
>>> The doc has been saved in Word 2003 format to easily track changes.
>>> I am using Kaspersky Anti Virus 2010 software so I trust there should be
>>> no
>>> unpleasant surprises when downloading the attached word doc.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I thought it would be advisable to first address the suggested comments
>>> and
>>> questions upto and including the uni-directional LSP setup delay metric
>>> and
>>> after that to continue with the bi-directional and sample definitions as
>>> covered in the doc.
>>> 
>>> Please let me have your thoughts on this.
>>> 
>>> Many thanks.
>>> Reinhard Schrage
>>> Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
>>> Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
>>> reinhard@schrageconsult.com
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Lou
>>> Berger
>>> Sent: Dienstag, 28. Juli 2009 14:59
>>> To: Henk Uijterwaal
>>> Cc: zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS;
>>> sunwq@mit.edu; IETF IPPM WG
>>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>> 
>>> Hank/Reinhard,
>>> 
>>> Thank you very much for undertaking this review.  Please cc
>>> ccamp@ietf.org on any comments you may have.
>>> 
>>> Lou
>>> 
>>> On 7/28/2009 6:47 AM, Henk Uijterwaal wrote:
>>>> Lou, others,
>>>> 
>>>>> We received the request for a review of a document currently under
>>>>> discussion in the CCAMP WG, please see below.  Is there anybody who
>>>>> has time to do this review in the near future?
>>>> 
>>>> Reinhard Schrage (rschrage@schrageconsult.net) has voluntered to do
>>>> this.
>>>> 
>>>> Reinhard: please post anything you find to both the list and the
>>>> authors.
>>>> And thank you for doing this.
>>>> 
>>>> Henk
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Matt & Henk
>>>>> 
>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>> Subject: IPPM expert review request
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:57:41 -0400
>>>>> From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
>>>>> To: ippm-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>>>>> CC: Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS <dbrungard@att.com>, sunwq@mit.edu,
>>>>> zhangguoying <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>     We, the CCAMP WG chairs, would like to request that the IPPM WG
>>>>> review
>>>>> a draft that is progressing through the CCAMP WG.  This work applies
>>>>> IPPM approaches to GMPLS.  The document we'd like reviewed is
>>>>> available at:
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06
>>>>> 
>>>>> Is this acceptable?  Can you undertake this review?  Alternatively, we
>>>>> can just last call the document in your WG (it has already passed CCAMP
>>>>> WG LC).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Lou (and Deborah)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ippm mailing list
>>> ippm@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>> 
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

-- 
Principal Architect - 21CN Networks



From lberger@labn.net  Wed Aug 19 09:19:26 2009
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Cc: zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn, Rschrage <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>, 'IETF IPPM WG' <ippm@ietf.org>, ccamp@ietf.org, 'Henk Uijterwaal' <henk@ripe.net>, 'Weiqiang Sun' <sunwq@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
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Tom,
	This document covers evaluation metrics that you'd expect to see
produced by a test tool rather than from the systems (DUTs) themselves.
 In short, no GMPLS network node is expected to implement this spec.

WRT the quoted text.  I viewed this as referring to a benchmarking tool
that is deployed in an operational network.  I can see how this can be
misinterpreted and I have no objection to asking that the text be
removed from the document.

Will dropping this text address your concerns?

Note that this document has been a WG document for well over a year and
was first discussed in the WG ~2.5 years ago.

Lou

On 8/19/2009 11:18 AM, Thomas D. Nadeau wrote:
>     Lou,
> 
>     I'd like to ask a question about this draft. How does it relate to (or
> not) to any of the GMPLS MIBs? As you know, the MIBs contain performance
> counters. If these metrics present in this draft do not coincide with the
> MIBs, this will cause more work for implementations. In particular, the
> following statement in this document worries me:
> 
>    On the other hand, it can also be used in operational environments for
>    carriers to monitor the control plane operation in real-time.  For
>    example, a new object can be added to GMPLS TE STD MIB [RFC4802] so
>    that the current and past control plane performance can be monitored
>    through network management systems.  The extension of TE-MIB to
>    support the defined metrics is outside the scope of this document.
> 
> 
>     Does the WG really want to progress a document that requires these
> changes?
> 
>     --Tom
> 
> 
> 
> On 8/19/09 9:57 AM, "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net> wrote:
> 
>> Hi all,
>>
>> pls find attached a further updated edition of previous revised doc
>> draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06.
>>
>> I believe this is as far as we can go for the moment before a mutual
>> satisfactory understanding has been reached and a new draft has been issued
>> by the authors.
>>
>> Again, pls feel free to comment.
>>
>> Many thanks.
>> Brgds.
>> Reinhard Schrage
>> Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
>> Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
>> reinhard@schrageconsult.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> Weiqiang Sun
>> Sent: Mittwoch, 19. August 2009 09:28
>> To: Rschrage; 'Lou Berger'; 'Henk Uijterwaal'
>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org; zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; 'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A,
>> ATTLABS'; 'IETF IPPM WG'
>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>
>> More responses below:
>>
>> RS4.
>> Should be more specific as to why this metric is no simple function of
>> single uni-directional LSP Setup Delay metric, i.e. why can it not be
>> deduced from single LSP Setup Delay?
>> [sunwq]
>> This point is raised regarding the sentence "The time needed to setup a
>> large number of LSPs during a short time period can not be deduced by single
>>
>> LSP setup delay."
>> One reason is that when a large number of LSPs in being setup during a short
>>
>> period of time, the control plane may be crowded or even overwhelmed by the
>> large number of signaling and routing messages. This may significantly slow
>> down the processing of a particular signaling message, which will results in
>>
>> longer LSP provisioning delays.
>> Are you suggesting that we add similar explanations to the document? We'd
>> love to do that if you feel it is necessary.
>>
>> RS5.
>> The current definition only addresses multiple uni-directional LSP setups
>> between two nodes ID0 and ID1. What about the the case when ID0 is to setup
>> multiple uni-directional LSP setups to different egress nodes ID1, ID2,
>> ID3,.,IDN?
>> [sunwq]
>> Yes, it is a useful case. Likewise you would expect a case to establish a
>> varied number of (instead of one) LSPs to a set of destinations. Our
>> suggestion is that this case is approached by integrating the defined
>> methodologies of single/multiple LSPs provisioning delay, in the form of a
>> particular testing case, rather than a formal testing methodology. This is
>> in fact a trade-off between complexity and accuracy.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Weiqiang
>>
>> --
>> Weiqiang Sun
>> Shanghai Jiao Tong University
>> http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Weiqiang Sun" <sunwq@mit.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:48 PM
>> To: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>; "'Lou Berger'"
>> <lberger@labn.net>; "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
>> Cc: <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS'"
>> <dbrungard@att.com>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" <ippm@ietf.org>; <ccamp@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>
>>> Hi Reinhard,
>>>
>>> Many thanks for doing the careful review. We appreciate your many wording
>>> suggestions. We will go through these one by one and adopt those we feel
>>> appropriate. In this email I will not list all the comments since these
>>> will not lead to major technical changes.
>>>
>>> Below I try to respond to the points you raised in the revision.
>>>
>>> RS1.
>>> This would imply that the metric may produce a range of several values at
>>> one time with the minimum value to be taken from that range.
>>> I believe what the authors are trying to say is, that the LSP Setup Delay
>>> Metric provides a lower bound on all possible LSP Delay Metrics of
>>> actually instantiated LSPs, or in other words: an actual LSP Delay Metric
>>> cannot get smaller than an LSP Setup Delay Metric.
>>> [sunwq]
>>> This point is raised regarding the motivation of the sigleton definition
>>> of Single Uni-directional LSP Setup Delay (ie. 4.1, para 2). We are trying
>>> to say that the minimum value of this metric reflects the (likely) single
>>> lsp setup delay when the control plane is lightly loaded. The formal
>>> definition of the minimum value is in "14.1 The minimum of metric"
>>> In fact we have inherited this from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681, page
>>> 2 section 1.1 bullet 3).
>>>
>>> RS2.
>>> How? Should there be a methodology be defined for this?
>>> [sunwq]
>>> This point is raised regarding the sentense in our methodologies
>>> sections - "Make sure that the network has enough resource to set up the
>>> requested LSP."
>>> We have assumed that test personnel should have adequate expertise in
>>> allocating enough resources for the testing. The allocation of resources
>>> for the testing purpose can be very test specific and we believe it is
>>> quite outside the scope of this document.
>>>
>>> RS3.
>>> Too vague? As both timestamps are to be taken on the same ingress node,
>>> they should be taken at the same application/network level.
>>> [sunwq]
>>> This point is raised regarding the sentense "If the corresponding RESV
>>> message arrives within a reasonable period of time, take the timestamp
>>> (T2) as soon as possible upon receipt of the message."
>>> Yes, ideally the timestamp should be taken immediately after the reception
>>> of the RESV message. The wording "as soon as possible" is used to allow
>>> for some flexibility when RESV message needs to be propagated to certain
>>> modules where timestamp-taking is most appropriate.
>>> And again, this text is inherited from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681
>>> page 7, bullet 3).
>>>
>>> Thanks again and looking forward to your further comments and revisions.
>>>
>>> Weiqiang
>>>
>>> --
>>> Weiqiang Sun
>>> Shanghai Jiao Tong University
>>> http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 8:23 PM
>>> To: "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>; "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
>>> Cc: <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS'"
>>> <dbrungard@att.com>; <sunwq@mit.edu>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" <ippm@ietf.org>;
>>> <ccamp@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: RE: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> sorry for late response-
>>>>
>>>> Nevertheless here is a first edition of my revision of doc
>>>> draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06.
>>>>
>>>> The doc has been saved in Word 2003 format to easily track changes.
>>>> I am using Kaspersky Anti Virus 2010 software so I trust there should be
>>>> no
>>>> unpleasant surprises when downloading the attached word doc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I thought it would be advisable to first address the suggested comments
>>>> and
>>>> questions upto and including the uni-directional LSP setup delay metric
>>>> and
>>>> after that to continue with the bi-directional and sample definitions as
>>>> covered in the doc.
>>>>
>>>> Please let me have your thoughts on this.
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks.
>>>> Reinhard Schrage
>>>> Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
>>>> Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
>>>> reinhard@schrageconsult.com
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> Lou
>>>> Berger
>>>> Sent: Dienstag, 28. Juli 2009 14:59
>>>> To: Henk Uijterwaal
>>>> Cc: zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS;
>>>> sunwq@mit.edu; IETF IPPM WG
>>>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>>>
>>>> Hank/Reinhard,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you very much for undertaking this review.  Please cc
>>>> ccamp@ietf.org on any comments you may have.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>> On 7/28/2009 6:47 AM, Henk Uijterwaal wrote:
>>>>> Lou, others,
>>>>>
>>>>>> We received the request for a review of a document currently under
>>>>>> discussion in the CCAMP WG, please see below.  Is there anybody who
>>>>>> has time to do this review in the near future?
>>>>> Reinhard Schrage (rschrage@schrageconsult.net) has voluntered to do
>>>>> this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Reinhard: please post anything you find to both the list and the
>>>>> authors.
>>>>> And thank you for doing this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Henk
>>>>>
>>>>>> Matt & Henk
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>> Subject: IPPM expert review request
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:57:41 -0400
>>>>>> From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
>>>>>> To: ippm-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>>>>>> CC: Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS <dbrungard@att.com>, sunwq@mit.edu,
>>>>>> zhangguoying <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>     We, the CCAMP WG chairs, would like to request that the IPPM WG
>>>>>> review
>>>>>> a draft that is progressing through the CCAMP WG.  This work applies
>>>>>> IPPM approaches to GMPLS.  The document we'd like reviewed is
>>>>>> available at:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this acceptable?  Can you undertake this review?  Alternatively, we
>>>>>> can just last call the document in your WG (it has already passed CCAMP
>>>>>> WG LC).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>> Lou (and Deborah)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ippm mailing list
>>>> ippm@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ippm mailing list
>> ippm@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 

From gregb@grotto-networking.com  Wed Aug 19 09:22:26 2009
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Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 09:22:28 -0700
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Subject: [CCAMP] WSON Signals and NE Compatibility draft
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Hi CCAMPers interested in WSON. We've published a revised version of
"WSON Signal Characteristics and Network Element Compatibility 
Constraints for GMPLS 
<http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wson-compatibility-00.txt>", 
draft-bernstein-ccamp-wson-compatibility-00.txt. Note that we renamed 
the file to avoid confusion with a different draft.

As discussed in Stockholm we are going to keep this separate from the 
RWA Framework draft and the WSON Impairments draft.
The relationship between these drafts is as follows:

   1. /WSON RWA Framework/ -- This document primarily covers the RWA
      problem and asymmetric switching systems. This draft assumes that
      all WSON signals are compatible with all WSON network elements and
      hence do not need to be characterized or checked against network
      elements for compatibility. No impairments.
   2. /WSON Compatibility/ -- This draft allows the WSON to deal with
      multiple signal types and network devices such as hybrid
      electro-optic systems that are compatible with only a limited set
      of optical signals. Models the WSON signal in terms of basic
      parameters and network elements in terms of /compatibility/ with
      these signals. No impairments. (Not currently a Working Group
      draft, currently an individual submission, but would like to
      advance this to a WG draft  rapidly).
   3. WSON Impairments -- Recognizes the existence of impairments and
      that not all paths are viable. Can convey impairment parameters
      for links and network elements (nodes).

 

*/Example:/*

How do these drafts relate to the use of regenerators?

(a)    Determining if an optional regenerator should be used is an 
/impairment/ consideration.

(b)   Determining if a regenerator can process a given signal is a 
/compatibility/ consideration. This includes the case of fixed (not 
optional) regenerators that are part of line systems.

(c)    Configuring a regenerator to deal with a particular signal type 
is a /compatibility/ consideration.

(d)   Path selection and wavelength conversion constraints of 
regenerators are considered by the /RWA Framework/.

Questions and Comments are always welcome.

Greg

-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Hi CCAMPers interested in WSON. We've published a revised version of <br>
"<a
 href="http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-bernstein-ccamp-wson-compatibility-00.txt">WSON
Signal Characteristics and Network Element Compatibility Constraints
for GMPLS</a>", draft-bernstein-ccamp-wson-compatibility-00.txt. Note
that we renamed the file to avoid confusion with a different draft.<br>
<br>
As discussed in Stockholm we are going to keep this separate from the
RWA Framework draft and the WSON Impairments draft.<br>
The relationship between these drafts is as follows:<br>
<br>
<ol style="margin-top: 0in;" start="1" type="1">
  <li class="MsoNormal" style=""><i style="">WSON RWA Framework</i> --
This document primarily covers the RWA problem and asymmetric switching
systems. This draft assumes that all WSON signals are compatible with
all WSON network elements and hence do not need to be characterized or
checked against network elements for compatibility. No impairments.</li>
  <li class="MsoNormal" style=""><i style="">WSON Compatibility</i> --
This draft allows the WSON to deal with multiple signal types and
network devices such as hybrid electro-optic systems that are
compatible with only a limited set of optical signals. Models the WSON
signal in terms of basic parameters and network elements in terms of <i
 style="">compatibility</i> with these signals. No impairments. (<span
 style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;">Not
currently a Working Group draft, currently an individual submission,
but would like to advance this to a WG draft&nbsp; rapidly</span>).</li>
  <li class="MsoNormal" style="">WSON Impairments -- Recognizes the
existence of impairments and that not all paths are viable. Can convey
impairment parameters for links and network elements (nodes).</li>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b style=""><i style="">Example:<o:p></o:p></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">How do these drafts relate to the use of
regenerators?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
 style="">(a)<span
 style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><!--[endif]-->Determining
if an optional regenerator should be used is an <i style="">impairment</i>
consideration.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
 style="">(b)<span
 style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><!--[endif]-->Determining
if a regenerator can process a given signal is a <i style="">compatibility</i>
consideration. This includes the case of fixed (not
optional) regenerators that are part of line systems.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
 style="">(c)<span
 style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><!--[endif]-->Configuring
a regenerator to deal with a particular signal type is a <i style="">compatibility</i>
consideration.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
 style="">(d)<span
 style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><!--[endif]-->Path
selection and wavelength conversion constraints of regenerators are
considered
by the <i style="">RWA Framework</i>.</p>
Questions and Comments are always welcome.<br>
<br>
Greg<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

</pre>
</body>
</html>

--------------020301080208080700060405--

From tom.nadeau@bt.com  Wed Aug 19 12:15:07 2009
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Cc: zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn, Rschrage <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>, 'IETF IPPM WG' <ippm@ietf.org>, ccamp@ietf.org, 'Henk Uijterwaal' <henk@ripe.net>, 'Weiqiang Sun' <sunwq@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
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On 8/19/09 12:20 PM, "Lou Berger" <lberger@labn.net> wrote:

> Tom,
> This document covers evaluation metrics that you'd expect to see
> produced by a test tool rather than from the systems (DUTs) themselves.
>  In short, no GMPLS network node is expected to implement this spec.
> 
> WRT the quoted text.  I viewed this as referring to a benchmarking tool
> that is deployed in an operational network.  I can see how this can be
> misinterpreted and I have no objection to asking that the text be
> removed from the document.
> 
> Will dropping this text address your concerns?

    Yes and no. For the current document I think yes, but from a wider WG
perspective, does the WG believe that MIBs can be used for the purposes of
measuring metrics (say as the target for a tool like you refer to above)?
Or does the WG feel new MIBs (or other APIs) should be developed to support
such a tool?  The worry I have, as an operator, is the introduction of such
metrics without a standardized means of getting at them in devices. This
will result in a hodgepodge of CLI-like mechanisms for anyone wishing to
produce a measurement tool, thus increasing the costs to operators wishing
to use said tools. 
 
> Note that this document has been a WG document for well over a year and
> was first discussed in the WG ~2.5 years ago.

    That is a valid point, but as you know many documents unfortunately
don't get the attention they deserve until a LC is issued. :(

    --Tom



 
> Lou
> 
> On 8/19/2009 11:18 AM, Thomas D. Nadeau wrote:
>>     Lou,
>> 
>>     I'd like to ask a question about this draft. How does it relate to (or
>> not) to any of the GMPLS MIBs? As you know, the MIBs contain performance
>> counters. If these metrics present in this draft do not coincide with the
>> MIBs, this will cause more work for implementations. In particular, the
>> following statement in this document worries me:
>> 
>>    On the other hand, it can also be used in operational environments for
>>    carriers to monitor the control plane operation in real-time.  For
>>    example, a new object can be added to GMPLS TE STD MIB [RFC4802] so
>>    that the current and past control plane performance can be monitored
>>    through network management systems.  The extension of TE-MIB to
>>    support the defined metrics is outside the scope of this document.
>> 
>> 
>>     Does the WG really want to progress a document that requires these
>> changes?
>> 
>>     --Tom
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 8/19/09 9:57 AM, "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> pls find attached a further updated edition of previous revised doc
>>> draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06.
>>> 
>>> I believe this is as far as we can go for the moment before a mutual
>>> satisfactory understanding has been reached and a new draft has been issued
>>> by the authors.
>>> 
>>> Again, pls feel free to comment.
>>> 
>>> Many thanks.
>>> Brgds.
>>> Reinhard Schrage
>>> Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
>>> Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
>>> reinhard@schrageconsult.com
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Weiqiang Sun
>>> Sent: Mittwoch, 19. August 2009 09:28
>>> To: Rschrage; 'Lou Berger'; 'Henk Uijterwaal'
>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org; zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; 'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A,
>>> ATTLABS'; 'IETF IPPM WG'
>>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>> 
>>> More responses below:
>>> 
>>> RS4.
>>> Should be more specific as to why this metric is no simple function of
>>> single uni-directional LSP Setup Delay metric, i.e. why can it not be
>>> deduced from single LSP Setup Delay?
>>> [sunwq]
>>> This point is raised regarding the sentence "The time needed to setup a
>>> large number of LSPs during a short time period can not be deduced by single
>>> 
>>> LSP setup delay."
>>> One reason is that when a large number of LSPs in being setup during a short
>>> 
>>> period of time, the control plane may be crowded or even overwhelmed by the
>>> large number of signaling and routing messages. This may significantly slow
>>> down the processing of a particular signaling message, which will results in
>>> 
>>> longer LSP provisioning delays.
>>> Are you suggesting that we add similar explanations to the document? We'd
>>> love to do that if you feel it is necessary.
>>> 
>>> RS5.
>>> The current definition only addresses multiple uni-directional LSP setups
>>> between two nodes ID0 and ID1. What about the the case when ID0 is to setup
>>> multiple uni-directional LSP setups to different egress nodes ID1, ID2,
>>> ID3,.,IDN?
>>> [sunwq]
>>> Yes, it is a useful case. Likewise you would expect a case to establish a
>>> varied number of (instead of one) LSPs to a set of destinations. Our
>>> suggestion is that this case is approached by integrating the defined
>>> methodologies of single/multiple LSPs provisioning delay, in the form of a
>>> particular testing case, rather than a formal testing methodology. This is
>>> in fact a trade-off between complexity and accuracy.
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> Weiqiang
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Weiqiang Sun
>>> Shanghai Jiao Tong University
>>> http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/
>>> 
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Weiqiang Sun" <sunwq@mit.edu>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:48 PM
>>> To: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>; "'Lou Berger'"
>>> <lberger@labn.net>; "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
>>> Cc: <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS'"
>>> <dbrungard@att.com>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" <ippm@ietf.org>; <ccamp@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>> 
>>>> Hi Reinhard,
>>>> 
>>>> Many thanks for doing the careful review. We appreciate your many wording
>>>> suggestions. We will go through these one by one and adopt those we feel
>>>> appropriate. In this email I will not list all the comments since these
>>>> will not lead to major technical changes.
>>>> 
>>>> Below I try to respond to the points you raised in the revision.
>>>> 
>>>> RS1.
>>>> This would imply that the metric may produce a range of several values at
>>>> one time with the minimum value to be taken from that range.
>>>> I believe what the authors are trying to say is, that the LSP Setup Delay
>>>> Metric provides a lower bound on all possible LSP Delay Metrics of
>>>> actually instantiated LSPs, or in other words: an actual LSP Delay Metric
>>>> cannot get smaller than an LSP Setup Delay Metric.
>>>> [sunwq]
>>>> This point is raised regarding the motivation of the sigleton definition
>>>> of Single Uni-directional LSP Setup Delay (ie. 4.1, para 2). We are trying
>>>> to say that the minimum value of this metric reflects the (likely) single
>>>> lsp setup delay when the control plane is lightly loaded. The formal
>>>> definition of the minimum value is in "14.1 The minimum of metric"
>>>> In fact we have inherited this from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681, page
>>>> 2 section 1.1 bullet 3).
>>>> 
>>>> RS2.
>>>> How? Should there be a methodology be defined for this?
>>>> [sunwq]
>>>> This point is raised regarding the sentense in our methodologies
>>>> sections - "Make sure that the network has enough resource to set up the
>>>> requested LSP."
>>>> We have assumed that test personnel should have adequate expertise in
>>>> allocating enough resources for the testing. The allocation of resources
>>>> for the testing purpose can be very test specific and we believe it is
>>>> quite outside the scope of this document.
>>>> 
>>>> RS3.
>>>> Too vague? As both timestamps are to be taken on the same ingress node,
>>>> they should be taken at the same application/network level.
>>>> [sunwq]
>>>> This point is raised regarding the sentense "If the corresponding RESV
>>>> message arrives within a reasonable period of time, take the timestamp
>>>> (T2) as soon as possible upon receipt of the message."
>>>> Yes, ideally the timestamp should be taken immediately after the reception
>>>> of the RESV message. The wording "as soon as possible" is used to allow
>>>> for some flexibility when RESV message needs to be propagated to certain
>>>> modules where timestamp-taking is most appropriate.
>>>> And again, this text is inherited from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681
>>>> page 7, bullet 3).
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks again and looking forward to your further comments and revisions.
>>>> 
>>>> Weiqiang
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Weiqiang Sun
>>>> Shanghai Jiao Tong University
>>>> http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/
>>>> 
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 8:23 PM
>>>> To: "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>; "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
>>>> Cc: <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS'"
>>>> <dbrungard@att.com>; <sunwq@mit.edu>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" <ippm@ietf.org>;
>>>> <ccamp@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: RE: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>>> 
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> 
>>>>> sorry for late response-
>>>>> 
>>>>> Nevertheless here is a first edition of my revision of doc
>>>>> draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The doc has been saved in Word 2003 format to easily track changes.
>>>>> I am using Kaspersky Anti Virus 2010 software so I trust there should be
>>>>> no
>>>>> unpleasant surprises when downloading the attached word doc.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I thought it would be advisable to first address the suggested comments
>>>>> and
>>>>> questions upto and including the uni-directional LSP setup delay metric
>>>>> and
>>>>> after that to continue with the bi-directional and sample definitions as
>>>>> covered in the doc.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Please let me have your thoughts on this.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Many thanks.
>>>>> Reinhard Schrage
>>>>> Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
>>>>> Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
>>>>> reinhard@schrageconsult.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Lou
>>>>> Berger
>>>>> Sent: Dienstag, 28. Juli 2009 14:59
>>>>> To: Henk Uijterwaal
>>>>> Cc: zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS;
>>>>> sunwq@mit.edu; IETF IPPM WG
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hank/Reinhard,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you very much for undertaking this review.  Please cc
>>>>> ccamp@ietf.org on any comments you may have.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Lou
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 7/28/2009 6:47 AM, Henk Uijterwaal wrote:
>>>>>> Lou, others,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> We received the request for a review of a document currently under
>>>>>>> discussion in the CCAMP WG, please see below.  Is there anybody who
>>>>>>> has time to do this review in the near future?
>>>>>> Reinhard Schrage (rschrage@schrageconsult.net) has voluntered to do
>>>>>> this.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Reinhard: please post anything you find to both the list and the
>>>>>> authors.
>>>>>> And thank you for doing this.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Matt & Henk
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>> Subject: IPPM expert review request
>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:57:41 -0400
>>>>>>> From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
>>>>>>> To: ippm-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>>>>>>> CC: Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS <dbrungard@att.com>, sunwq@mit.edu,
>>>>>>> zhangguoying <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>     We, the CCAMP WG chairs, would like to request that the IPPM WG
>>>>>>> review
>>>>>>> a draft that is progressing through the CCAMP WG.  This work applies
>>>>>>> IPPM approaches to GMPLS.  The document we'd like reviewed is
>>>>>>> available at:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Is this acceptable?  Can you undertake this review?  Alternatively, we
>>>>>>> can just last call the document in your WG (it has already passed CCAMP
>>>>>>> WG LC).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>>> Lou (and Deborah)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> ippm mailing list
>>>>> ippm@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ippm mailing list
>>> ippm@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>> 

-- 
Principal Architect - 21CN Networks



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Subject: [CCAMP] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4427 (1834)
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The following errata report has been submitted for RFC4427,
"Recovery (Protection and Restoration) Terminology for Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS)".

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=4427&eid=1834

--------------------------------------
Type: Technical
Reported by: Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>

Section: 4.6

Original Text
-------------
   E. M:N (M, N > 1, N >= M) type:

   A set of M specific recovery LSPs/spans protects a set of up to N
   specific working LSPs/spans.  The two sets are explicitly identified.
   Extra traffic can be transported over the M recovery LSPs/spans when
   available.  All the LSPs/spans must start and end at the same nodes.

Corrected Text
--------------
   E. M:N (M, N > 1, N >= M > 1) type:

   A set of M specific recovery LSPs/spans protects a set of up to N
   specific working LSPs/spans.  The two sets are explicitly identified.
   Extra traffic can be transported over the M recovery LSPs/spans when
   available.  All the LSPs/spans must start and end at the same nodes.

Notes
-----
M > 1 is not specified

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--------------------------------------
RFC4427 (draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-recovery-terminology-06)
--------------------------------------
Title               : Recovery (Protection and Restoration) Terminology for Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS)
Publication Date    : March 2006
Author(s)           : E. Mannie, Ed., D. Papadimitriou, Ed.
Category            : INFORMATIONAL
Source              : Common Control and Measurement Plane
Area                : Routing
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG

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Subject: [CCAMP] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4427 (1835)
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The following errata report has been submitted for RFC4427,
"Recovery (Protection and Restoration) Terminology for Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS)".

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=4427&eid=1835

--------------------------------------
Type: Technical
Reported by: Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>

Section: 6.3

Original Text
-------------
6.3. M:N (M, N > 1, N >= M) Protection


   M:N protection has N working LSPs/spans carrying normal traffic and M
   protection LSP/span that may carry extra-traffic.

Corrected Text
--------------
6.3. M:N (M, N > 1, N >= M > 1) Protection


   M:N protection has N working LSPs/spans carrying normal traffic and M
   protection LSP/span that may carry extra-traffic.

Notes
-----
M > 1 is added

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-------------
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use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
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can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. 

--------------------------------------
RFC4427 (draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-recovery-terminology-06)
--------------------------------------
Title               : Recovery (Protection and Restoration) Terminology for Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS)
Publication Date    : March 2006
Author(s)           : E. Mannie, Ed., D. Papadimitriou, Ed.
Category            : INFORMATIONAL
Source              : Common Control and Measurement Plane
Area                : Routing
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG

From sunwq@MIT.EDU  Thu Aug 20 23:59:26 2009
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From: "Weiqiang Sun" <sunwq@MIT.EDU>
To: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>, "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>, "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
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Cc: ccamp@ietf.org, zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn, 'IETF IPPM WG' <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
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Hi Reinhard,

Thanks for sending this part. See below for my responses.

[RS7]
Is there any help or suggestion on how to actually compute a usable 
Lambda_m?
[sunwq]
No. Depending on the performance of the implementation, the lambda_m can be 
very different, even under the same topology. A proper value of Lambda_m can 
only be tuned in the testing.

[RS8]
How to compare metrics that have been generated by two different Poisson 
processes, i.e. e.g. two different arrival rates?
[sunwq]
No way. Do we need to do that anyway?

[RS9]
These sample tuples are dependent on the arrival rate Lambda_m. How to 
deduct this input parameter from a resulting sample?
For instance, if two result sample sets are given, how can we be sure that 
they can be compared?
[sunwq]
My understanding of the sample is that it is a sequence of singleton values 
obtained under a set of parameters. The parameters, such as Lambda_m, are 
not visible in the sample. However, when reporting the sample, the 
parameters must also be reported.

[RS10]
A superposition of two different Poisson processes is being used here.
How do you map the resulting RESV messages to the correct process, i.e. how 
to differentiate e.g. a late RESV message resulting from third PATH message 
in fourth invocation from an early RESV message solicited by first PATH 
message in fourth invocation?
[sunwq]
RESV messages can be differentiated by either MSG ID or non-overlapping LSP 
ID, or combined. The RSVP-TE protocol does that automatically. So I believe 
this is an RSVP-TE implementation issue, rather than a testing methodology 
issue.

[RS11]
????
[sunwq]
Well, the full text is like: "The percentile of Metric is defined as: given 
a metric and a percent X between 0% and 100%, the Xth percentile of all the 
dT values in the sample." Would it help a bit if sentence is replaced by the 
full text above?
Please be noted that this text is inherited from the IPPM docs (See RFC 
2681, page 16, 4.1).

[RS12]
As stipulated in RFC2330 the EDF is defined as a function F(x) which for any 
x gives the fractional proportion of the total measurements that were <= x. 
(see RFC2330 11.3 p26)
Hence F(90)=0.25, F(100)=0.5,F(110)=0.75, F(500)=1 and therefore the 50th 
percentile is defined as 100 as opposed to 110.
[sunwq]
Yes you are right with regard to RFC 2330. But we have used exactly the same 
example as in RFC 2681 (page 16, section 4.1). The good thing is that the 
difference of the two calculations is very small when the number of 
measurement is large. Change needed?

And I realized that the points you have raised covered the main part of the 
text. We would expect your further comments regarding our responses. 
Otherwise we will assume that you are happy with it and will proceed to 
change the text based on the revision you sent in your previous email :)

Thank you again for your time in reviewing the draft so carefully.

Best regards,
Weiqiang

--
Weiqiang Sun
Shanghai Jiao Tong University
http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 9:57 PM
To: "'Weiqiang Sun'" <sunwq@MIT.EDU>; "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>; 
"'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
Cc: <ccamp@ietf.org>; <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" 
<ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]

> Hi all,
>
> pls find attached a further updated edition of previous revised doc
> draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06.
>
> I believe this is as far as we can go for the moment before a mutual
> satisfactory understanding has been reached and a new draft has been 
> issued
> by the authors.
>
> Again, pls feel free to comment.
>
> Many thanks.
> Brgds.
> Reinhard Schrage
> Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
> Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
> reinhard@schrageconsult.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Weiqiang Sun
> Sent: Mittwoch, 19. August 2009 09:28
> To: Rschrage; 'Lou Berger'; 'Henk Uijterwaal'
> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org; zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; 'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A,
> ATTLABS'; 'IETF IPPM WG'
> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>
> More responses below:
>
> RS4.
> Should be more specific as to why this metric is no simple function of
> single uni-directional LSP Setup Delay metric, i.e. why can it not be
> deduced from single LSP Setup Delay?
> [sunwq]
> This point is raised regarding the sentence "The time needed to setup a
> large number of LSPs during a short time period can not be deduced by 
> single
>
> LSP setup delay."
> One reason is that when a large number of LSPs in being setup during a 
> short
>
> period of time, the control plane may be crowded or even overwhelmed by 
> the
> large number of signaling and routing messages. This may significantly 
> slow
> down the processing of a particular signaling message, which will results 
> in
>
> longer LSP provisioning delays.
> Are you suggesting that we add similar explanations to the document? We'd
> love to do that if you feel it is necessary.
>
> RS5.
> The current definition only addresses multiple uni-directional LSP setups
> between two nodes ID0 and ID1. What about the the case when ID0 is to 
> setup
> multiple uni-directional LSP setups to different egress nodes ID1, ID2,
> ID3,.,IDN?
> [sunwq]
> Yes, it is a useful case. Likewise you would expect a case to establish a
> varied number of (instead of one) LSPs to a set of destinations. Our
> suggestion is that this case is approached by integrating the defined
> methodologies of single/multiple LSPs provisioning delay, in the form of a
> particular testing case, rather than a formal testing methodology. This is
> in fact a trade-off between complexity and accuracy.
>
> Best regards,
> Weiqiang
>
> --
> Weiqiang Sun
> Shanghai Jiao Tong University
> http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Weiqiang Sun" <sunwq@mit.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:48 PM
> To: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>; "'Lou Berger'"
> <lberger@labn.net>; "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
> Cc: <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS'"
> <dbrungard@att.com>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" <ippm@ietf.org>; <ccamp@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>
>> Hi Reinhard,
>>
>> Many thanks for doing the careful review. We appreciate your many wording
>> suggestions. We will go through these one by one and adopt those we feel
>> appropriate. In this email I will not list all the comments since these
>> will not lead to major technical changes.
>>
>> Below I try to respond to the points you raised in the revision.
>>
>> RS1.
>> This would imply that the metric may produce a range of several values at
>> one time with the minimum value to be taken from that range.
>> I believe what the authors are trying to say is, that the LSP Setup Delay
>> Metric provides a lower bound on all possible LSP Delay Metrics of
>> actually instantiated LSPs, or in other words: an actual LSP Delay Metric
>> cannot get smaller than an LSP Setup Delay Metric.
>> [sunwq]
>> This point is raised regarding the motivation of the sigleton definition
>> of Single Uni-directional LSP Setup Delay (ie. 4.1, para 2). We are 
>> trying
>
>> to say that the minimum value of this metric reflects the (likely) single
>> lsp setup delay when the control plane is lightly loaded. The formal
>> definition of the minimum value is in "14.1 The minimum of metric"
>> In fact we have inherited this from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681, 
>> page
>
>> 2 section 1.1 bullet 3).
>>
>> RS2.
>> How? Should there be a methodology be defined for this?
>> [sunwq]
>> This point is raised regarding the sentense in our methodologies
>> sections - "Make sure that the network has enough resource to set up the
>> requested LSP."
>> We have assumed that test personnel should have adequate expertise in
>> allocating enough resources for the testing. The allocation of resources
>> for the testing purpose can be very test specific and we believe it is
>> quite outside the scope of this document.
>>
>> RS3.
>> Too vague? As both timestamps are to be taken on the same ingress node,
>> they should be taken at the same application/network level.
>> [sunwq]
>> This point is raised regarding the sentense "If the corresponding RESV
>> message arrives within a reasonable period of time, take the timestamp
>> (T2) as soon as possible upon receipt of the message."
>> Yes, ideally the timestamp should be taken immediately after the 
>> reception
>
>> of the RESV message. The wording "as soon as possible" is used to allow
>> for some flexibility when RESV message needs to be propagated to certain
>> modules where timestamp-taking is most appropriate.
>> And again, this text is inherited from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681
>> page 7, bullet 3).
>>
>> Thanks again and looking forward to your further comments and revisions.
>>
>> Weiqiang
>>
>> --
>> Weiqiang Sun
>> Shanghai Jiao Tong University
>> http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 8:23 PM
>> To: "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>; "'Henk Uijterwaal'" 
>> <henk@ripe.net>
>> Cc: <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS'"
>> <dbrungard@att.com>; <sunwq@mit.edu>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" <ippm@ietf.org>;
>> <ccamp@ietf.org>
>> Subject: RE: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> sorry for late response-
>>>
>>> Nevertheless here is a first edition of my revision of doc
>>> draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06.
>>>
>>> The doc has been saved in Word 2003 format to easily track changes.
>>> I am using Kaspersky Anti Virus 2010 software so I trust there should be
>>> no
>>> unpleasant surprises when downloading the attached word doc.
>>>
>>>
>>> I thought it would be advisable to first address the suggested comments
>>> and
>>> questions upto and including the uni-directional LSP setup delay metric
>>> and
>>> after that to continue with the bi-directional and sample definitions as
>>> covered in the doc.
>>>
>>> Please let me have your thoughts on this.
>>>
>>> Many thanks.
>>> Reinhard Schrage
>>> Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
>>> Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
>>> reinhard@schrageconsult.com
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Lou
>>> Berger
>>> Sent: Dienstag, 28. Juli 2009 14:59
>>> To: Henk Uijterwaal
>>> Cc: zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS;
>>> sunwq@mit.edu; IETF IPPM WG
>>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>>
>>> Hank/Reinhard,
>>>
>>> Thank you very much for undertaking this review.  Please cc
>>> ccamp@ietf.org on any comments you may have.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>>> On 7/28/2009 6:47 AM, Henk Uijterwaal wrote:
>>>> Lou, others,
>>>>
>>>>> We received the request for a review of a document currently under
>>>>> discussion in the CCAMP WG, please see below.  Is there anybody who
>>>>> has time to do this review in the near future?
>>>>
>>>> Reinhard Schrage (rschrage@schrageconsult.net) has voluntered to do
>>>> this.
>>>>
>>>> Reinhard: please post anything you find to both the list and the
>>>> authors.
>>>> And thank you for doing this.
>>>>
>>>> Henk
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt & Henk
>>>>>
>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>> Subject: IPPM expert review request
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:57:41 -0400
>>>>> From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
>>>>> To: ippm-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>>>>> CC: Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS <dbrungard@att.com>, sunwq@mit.edu,
>>>>> zhangguoying <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>     We, the CCAMP WG chairs, would like to request that the IPPM WG
>>>>> review
>>>>> a draft that is progressing through the CCAMP WG.  This work applies
>>>>> IPPM approaches to GMPLS.  The document we'd like reviewed is
>>>>> available at:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this acceptable?  Can you undertake this review?  Alternatively, we
>>>>> can just last call the document in your WG (it has already passed 
>>>>> CCAMP
>>>>> WG LC).
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Lou (and Deborah)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ippm mailing list
>>> ippm@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>>
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>



> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 

From eric.gray@ericsson.com  Fri Aug 21 05:46:44 2009
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From: Eric Gray <eric.gray@ericsson.com>
To: RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>, "eric.mannie@perceval.net" <eric.mannie@perceval.net>, "dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel.be" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel.be>, "rcallon@juniper.net" <rcallon@juniper.net>, "adrian.farrel@huawei.com" <adrian.farrel@huawei.com>, "lberger@labn.net" <lberger@labn.net>, "dbrungard@att.com" <dbrungard@att.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:43:59 -0400
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4427 (1835)
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4427 (1835)
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In this case, the additional "M > 1" is redundant, since the parenthesized
statement starts by stating that _both_ M and N are reater than 1 - i.e. -
"M, N > 1" equates to "M > 1, N > 1"

The text referred to is correct as is.

--
Eric=20

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of R=
FC Errata System
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 7:03 PM
To: eric.mannie@perceval.net; dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel.be; rcallon@jun=
iper.net; adrian.farrel@huawei.com; lberger@labn.net; dbrungard@att.com
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org; rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org
Subject: [CCAMP] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4427 (1835)


The following errata report has been submitted for RFC4427,
"Recovery (Protection and Restoration) Terminology for Generalized Multi-Pr=
otocol Label Switching (GMPLS)".

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D4427&eid=3D1835

--------------------------------------
Type: Technical
Reported by: Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>

Section: 6.3

Original Text
-------------
6.3. M:N (M, N > 1, N >=3D M) Protection


   M:N protection has N working LSPs/spans carrying normal traffic and M
   protection LSP/span that may carry extra-traffic.

Corrected Text
--------------
6.3. M:N (M, N > 1, N >=3D M > 1) Protection


   M:N protection has N working LSPs/spans carrying normal traffic and M
   protection LSP/span that may carry extra-traffic.

Notes
-----
M > 1 is added

Instructions:
-------------
This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG)
can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.=20

--------------------------------------
RFC4427 (draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-recovery-terminology-06)
--------------------------------------
Title               : Recovery (Protection and Restoration) Terminology for=
 Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS)
Publication Date    : March 2006
Author(s)           : E. Mannie, Ed., D. Papadimitriou, Ed.
Category            : INFORMATIONAL
Source              : Common Control and Measurement Plane
Area                : Routing
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG
_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
CCAMP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From vishwas.ietf@gmail.com  Fri Aug 21 07:58:48 2009
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 07:58:51 -0700
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4427 (1835)
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Hi Eric,

Now I see it that way. However I got confused as "," is a seperator
both for multiple conditions as well as multiple elements in a
condition.

The best way would be to put it would be only one condition (same for
the other Errata):

N >=3D M > 1.

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 5:43 AM, Eric Gray<eric.gray@ericsson.com> wrote:
> In this case, the additional "M > 1" is redundant, since the parenthesize=
d
> statement starts by stating that _both_ M and N are reater than 1 - i.e. =
-
> "M, N > 1" equates to "M > 1, N > 1"
>
> The text referred to is correct as is.
>
> --
> Eric
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 RFC Errata System
> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 7:03 PM
> To: eric.mannie@perceval.net; dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel.be; rcallon@j=
uniper.net; adrian.farrel@huawei.com; lberger@labn.net; dbrungard@att.com
> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org; rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org
> Subject: [CCAMP] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4427 (1835)
>
>
> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC4427,
> "Recovery (Protection and Restoration) Terminology for Generalized Multi-=
Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS)".
>
> --------------------------------------
> You may review the report below and at:
> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D4427&eid=3D1835
>
> --------------------------------------
> Type: Technical
> Reported by: Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
>
> Section: 6.3
>
> Original Text
> -------------
> 6.3. M:N (M, N > 1, N >=3D M) Protection
>
>
> =A0 M:N protection has N working LSPs/spans carrying normal traffic and M
> =A0 protection LSP/span that may carry extra-traffic.
>
> Corrected Text
> --------------
> 6.3. M:N (M, N > 1, N >=3D M > 1) Protection
>
>
> =A0 M:N protection has N working LSPs/spans carrying normal traffic and M
> =A0 protection LSP/span that may carry extra-traffic.
>
> Notes
> -----
> M > 1 is added
>
> Instructions:
> -------------
> This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
> rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG)
> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.
>
> --------------------------------------
> RFC4427 (draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-recovery-terminology-06)
> --------------------------------------
> Title =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : Recovery (Protection and Restoration)=
 Terminology for Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS)
> Publication Date =A0 =A0: March 2006
> Author(s) =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : E. Mannie, Ed., D. Papadimitriou, Ed.
> Category =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: INFORMATIONAL
> Source =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: Common Control and Measurement Plane
> Area =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: Routing
> Stream =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: IETF
> Verifying Party =A0 =A0 : IESG
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
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>

From eric.gray@ericsson.com  Fri Aug 21 14:38:38 2009
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From: Eric Gray <eric.gray@ericsson.com>
To: Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 17:36:55 -0400
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4427 (1835)
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4427 (1835)
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Vishwas,

	The errata system is somewhat erratic.  Changes that are not
absolutely necessary tend to discredit/devalue the utility of the
(already easy to ignore) errata process.

	If we had to make a change (to clarify what is understandably
not very clear) it would be better to reduce the redundancy.  I'd=20
offer as a possibly better "fix" -

	Replace "(M, N > 1, N >=3D M)" with "(N >=3D M > 1)"

- which is what I think you're now suggesting as well.

	But that brings us back to the point - is this change really
necessary at all?

--
Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: Vishwas Manral [mailto:vishwas.ietf@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 10:59 AM
To: Eric Gray
Cc: RFC Errata System; eric.mannie@perceval.net; dimitri.papadimitriou@alca=
tel.be; rcallon@juniper.net; adrian.farrel@huawei.com; lberger@labn.net; db=
rungard@att.com; ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4427 (1835)
Importance: High

Hi Eric,

Now I see it that way. However I got confused as "," is a seperator
both for multiple conditions as well as multiple elements in a
condition.

The best way would be to put it would be only one condition (same for
the other Errata):

N >=3D M > 1.

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 5:43 AM, Eric Gray<eric.gray@ericsson.com> wrote:
> In this case, the additional "M > 1" is redundant, since the parenthesize=
d
> statement starts by stating that _both_ M and N are reater than 1 - i.e. =
-
> "M, N > 1" equates to "M > 1, N > 1"
>
> The text referred to is correct as is.
>
> --
> Eric
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 RFC Errata System
> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 7:03 PM
> To: eric.mannie@perceval.net; dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel.be; rcallon@j=
uniper.net; adrian.farrel@huawei.com; lberger@labn.net; dbrungard@att.com
> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org; rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org
> Subject: [CCAMP] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4427 (1835)
>
>
> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC4427,
> "Recovery (Protection and Restoration) Terminology for Generalized Multi-=
Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS)".
>
> --------------------------------------
> You may review the report below and at:
> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D4427&eid=3D1835
>
> --------------------------------------
> Type: Technical
> Reported by: Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
>
> Section: 6.3
>
> Original Text
> -------------
> 6.3. M:N (M, N > 1, N >=3D M) Protection
>
>
> =A0 M:N protection has N working LSPs/spans carrying normal traffic and M
> =A0 protection LSP/span that may carry extra-traffic.
>
> Corrected Text
> --------------
> 6.3. M:N (M, N > 1, N >=3D M > 1) Protection
>
>
> =A0 M:N protection has N working LSPs/spans carrying normal traffic and M
> =A0 protection LSP/span that may carry extra-traffic.
>
> Notes
> -----
> M > 1 is added
>
> Instructions:
> -------------
> This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
> rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG)
> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.
>
> --------------------------------------
> RFC4427 (draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-recovery-terminology-06)
> --------------------------------------
> Title =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : Recovery (Protection and Restoration)=
 Terminology for Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS)
> Publication Date =A0 =A0: March 2006
> Author(s) =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : E. Mannie, Ed., D. Papadimitriou, Ed.
> Category =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: INFORMATIONAL
> Source =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: Common Control and Measurement Plane
> Area =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: Routing
> Stream =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: IETF
> Verifying Party =A0 =A0 : IESG
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>

From vishwas.ietf@gmail.com  Fri Aug 21 15:25:16 2009
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:25:15 -0700
Message-ID: <77ead0ec0908211525w7bbd0c09tdc5a3b20d9398300@mail.gmail.com>
From: Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Eric Gray <eric.gray@ericsson.com>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4427 (1835)
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Hi Eric,

Thats correct. I am ok with the suggestions you mention (which is what
I am saying too).

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Eric Gray<eric.gray@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Vishwas,
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0The errata system is somewhat erratic. =A0Changes that are=
 not
> absolutely necessary tend to discredit/devalue the utility of the
> (already easy to ignore) errata process.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0If we had to make a change (to clarify what is understanda=
bly
> not very clear) it would be better to reduce the redundancy. =A0I'd
> offer as a possibly better "fix" -
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Replace "(M, N > 1, N >=3D M)" with "(N >=3D M > 1)"
>
> - which is what I think you're now suggesting as well.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0But that brings us back to the point - is this change real=
ly
> necessary at all?
>
> --
> Eric
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vishwas Manral [mailto:vishwas.ietf@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 10:59 AM
> To: Eric Gray
> Cc: RFC Errata System; eric.mannie@perceval.net; dimitri.papadimitriou@al=
catel.be; rcallon@juniper.net; adrian.farrel@huawei.com; lberger@labn.net; =
dbrungard@att.com; ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4427 (1835)
> Importance: High
>
> Hi Eric,
>
> Now I see it that way. However I got confused as "," is a seperator
> both for multiple conditions as well as multiple elements in a
> condition.
>
> The best way would be to put it would be only one condition (same for
> the other Errata):
>
> N >=3D M > 1.
>
> Thanks,
> Vishwas
>
> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 5:43 AM, Eric Gray<eric.gray@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> In this case, the additional "M > 1" is redundant, since the parenthesiz=
ed
>> statement starts by stating that _both_ M and N are reater than 1 - i.e.=
 -
>> "M, N > 1" equates to "M > 1, N > 1"
>>
>> The text referred to is correct as is.
>>
>> --
>> Eric
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf O=
f RFC Errata System
>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 7:03 PM
>> To: eric.mannie@perceval.net; dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel.be; rcallon@=
juniper.net; adrian.farrel@huawei.com; lberger@labn.net; dbrungard@att.com
>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org; rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org
>> Subject: [CCAMP] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4427 (1835)
>>
>>
>> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC4427,
>> "Recovery (Protection and Restoration) Terminology for Generalized Multi=
-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS)".
>>
>> --------------------------------------
>> You may review the report below and at:
>> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D4427&eid=3D1835
>>
>> --------------------------------------
>> Type: Technical
>> Reported by: Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
>>
>> Section: 6.3
>>
>> Original Text
>> -------------
>> 6.3. M:N (M, N > 1, N >=3D M) Protection
>>
>>
>> =A0 M:N protection has N working LSPs/spans carrying normal traffic and =
M
>> =A0 protection LSP/span that may carry extra-traffic.
>>
>> Corrected Text
>> --------------
>> 6.3. M:N (M, N > 1, N >=3D M > 1) Protection
>>
>>
>> =A0 M:N protection has N working LSPs/spans carrying normal traffic and =
M
>> =A0 protection LSP/span that may carry extra-traffic.
>>
>> Notes
>> -----
>> M > 1 is added
>>
>> Instructions:
>> -------------
>> This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
>> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
>> rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG)
>> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.
>>
>> --------------------------------------
>> RFC4427 (draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-recovery-terminology-06)
>> --------------------------------------
>> Title =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : Recovery (Protection and Restoration=
) Terminology for Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS)
>> Publication Date =A0 =A0: March 2006
>> Author(s) =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : E. Mannie, Ed., D. Papadimitriou, Ed.
>> Category =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: INFORMATIONAL
>> Source =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: Common Control and Measurement Plane
>> Area =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: Routing
>> Stream =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: IETF
>> Verifying Party =A0 =A0 : IESG
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>

From wwwrun@core3.amsl.com  Mon Aug 24 08:06:53 2009
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Subject: [CCAMP] Document Action: 'OSPFv2 Routing Protocols Extensions for ASON Routing' to Experimental RFC
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The IESG has approved the following document:

- 'OSPFv2 Routing Protocols Extensions for ASON Routing '
   <draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-09.txt> as an Experimental RFC


This document is the product of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group. 

The IESG contact persons are Adrian Farrel and Ross Callon.

A URL of this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-09.txt

Technical Summary

  The ITU-T has defined an architecture and requirements for operating
  an Automatically Switched Optical Network (ASON).

  The Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) protocol suite
  is designed to provide a control plane for a range of network
  technologies including optical networks such as time division
  multiplexing (TDM) networks including SONET/SDH and Optical Transport
  Networks (OTNs), and lambda switching optical networks.

  The requirements for GMPLS routing to satisfy the requirements of
  ASON routing, and an evaluation of existing GMPLS routing protocols
  are provided in other documents. This document defines to the OSPFv2
  Link State Routing Protocol to meet the routing requirements for
  routing in an ASON.

  Note that this work is scoped to the requirements and evaluation
  expressed in RFC 4258 and RFC 4652 and the ITU-T Recommendations
  current when those documents were written. Future extensions of
  revisions of this work may be necessary if the ITU-T Recommendations
  are revised or if new requirements are introduced into a revision of
  RFC 4258.

Working Group Summary

  As noted above, although concerns were raised about the completeness of

  RFC 4258 that sets out the requirements, it has been agreed that this 
  I-D should progress while work continues to revise that RFC. If 
  changes or additions should be required as a result of the revision of 
  RFC 4258, this work can be revised in the future.

Document Quality

  There are no known implementations or planned implementations of this
  work.

Personnel

  The Document Shepherd is Deborah Brungard.
  The Responsible AD is Adrian Farrel.


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Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-07.txt
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Label Switched Path (LSP) Dynamic Provisioning Performance Metrics in Generalized MPLS Networks
	Author(s)       : W. Sun, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-07.txt
	Pages           : 49
	Date            : 2009-08-25

Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) is one of the most
promising candidate technologies for future data transmission
network.  GMPLS has been developed to control and operate different
kinds of network elements, such as conventional routers, switches,
Dense Wavelength Division Multiplexing (DWDM) systems, Add- Drop
Multiplexers (ADMs), photonic cross-connects (PXCs), optical cross-
connects (OXCs), etc.  Dynamic provisioning ability of these
physically diverse devices differs from each other drastically.  At
the same time, the need for dynamically provisioned connections is
increasing because optical networks are being deployed in metro
areas.  As different applications have varied requirements in the
provisioning performance of optical networks, it is imperative to
define standardized metrics and procedures such that the performance
of networks and application needs can be mapped to each other.

This document provides a series of performance metrics to evaluate
the dynamic LSP provisioning performance in GMPLS networks,
specifically the dynamic LSP setup/release performance.  These
metrics can depict the features of GMPLS networks in LSP dynamic
provisioning.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-07.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

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From sunwq@MIT.EDU  Tue Aug 25 19:16:26 2009
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From: "Weiqiang Sun" <sunwq@MIT.EDU>
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Subject: [CCAMP] Fw: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-07
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Hi all,

Thanks to Reinhard Schrage, we now have a better version of the DPPM draft 
uploaded.
In this revision, no technical changes are made.

And, as per Tom's comments, we have droped the following two sentenses.
- They can also be used in operational networks for carriers to monitor
  the control plane performance in realtime.

- On the other hand, it can also be used in operational environments for
   carriers to monitor the control plane operation in real-time.  For
   example, a new object can be added to GMPLS TE STD MIB [RFC4802] so
   that the current and past control plane performance can be monitored
   through network management systems.  The extension of TE-MIB to
   support the defined metrics is outside the scope of this document.

As the document has passed WGLC, we would like to pass it back to the hands 
of our chairs
for further processing.

Thanks and best regards,
Weiqiang

--------------------------------------------------
From: "IETF I-D Submission Tool" <idsubmission@ietf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:04 AM
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-07

>
> A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-07.txt has been 
> successfuly submitted by Weiqiang Sun and posted to the IETF repository.
>
> Filename: draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm
> Revision: 07
> Title: Label Switched Path (LSP) Dynamic Provisioning Performance Metrics 
> in Generalized MPLS Networks
> Creation_date: 2009-08-26
> WG ID: ccamp
> Number_of_pages: 49
>
> Abstract:
> Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) is one of the most
> promising candidate technologies for future data transmission
> network.  GMPLS has been developed to control and operate different
> kinds of network elements, such as conventional routers, switches,
> Dense Wavelength Division Multiplexing (DWDM) systems, Add- Drop
> Multiplexers (ADMs), photonic cross-connects (PXCs), optical cross-
> connects (OXCs), etc.  Dynamic provisioning ability of these
> physically diverse devices differs from each other drastically.  At
> the same time, the need for dynamically provisioned connections is
> increasing because optical networks are being deployed in metro
> areas.  As different applications have varied requirements in the
> provisioning performance of optical networks, it is imperative to
> define standardized metrics and procedures such that the performance
> of networks and application needs can be mapped to each other.
>
> This document provides a series of performance metrics to evaluate
> the dynamic LSP provisioning performance in GMPLS networks,
> specifically the dynamic LSP setup/release performance.  These
> metrics can depict the features of GMPLS networks in LSP dynamic
> provisioning.
>
>
>
> The IETF Secretariat.
>
>
> 

From sunwq@MIT.EDU  Tue Aug 25 19:16:41 2009
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From: "Weiqiang Sun" <sunwq@MIT.EDU>
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Hi all,

Thanks to Reinhard Schrage, we now have a better version of the DPPM draft 
uploaded.
In this revision, no technical changes are made.

And, as per Tom's comments, we have droped the following two sentenses.
- They can also be used in operational networks for carriers to monitor
  the control plane performance in realtime.

- On the other hand, it can also be used in operational environments for
   carriers to monitor the control plane operation in real-time.  For
   example, a new object can be added to GMPLS TE STD MIB [RFC4802] so
   that the current and past control plane performance can be monitored
   through network management systems.  The extension of TE-MIB to
   support the defined metrics is outside the scope of this document.

As the document has passed WGLC, we would like to pass it back to the hands 
of our chairs
for further processing.

Thanks and best regards,
Weiqiang

--------------------------------------------------
From: "IETF I-D Submission Tool" <idsubmission@ietf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:04 AM
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-07

>
> A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-07.txt has been 
> successfuly submitted by Weiqiang Sun and posted to the IETF repository.
>
> Filename: draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm
> Revision: 07
> Title: Label Switched Path (LSP) Dynamic Provisioning Performance Metrics 
> in Generalized MPLS Networks
> Creation_date: 2009-08-26
> WG ID: ccamp
> Number_of_pages: 49
>
> Abstract:
> Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) is one of the most
> promising candidate technologies for future data transmission
> network.  GMPLS has been developed to control and operate different
> kinds of network elements, such as conventional routers, switches,
> Dense Wavelength Division Multiplexing (DWDM) systems, Add- Drop
> Multiplexers (ADMs), photonic cross-connects (PXCs), optical cross-
> connects (OXCs), etc.  Dynamic provisioning ability of these
> physically diverse devices differs from each other drastically.  At
> the same time, the need for dynamically provisioned connections is
> increasing because optical networks are being deployed in metro
> areas.  As different applications have varied requirements in the
> provisioning performance of optical networks, it is imperative to
> define standardized metrics and procedures such that the performance
> of networks and application needs can be mapped to each other.
>
> This document provides a series of performance metrics to evaluate
> the dynamic LSP provisioning performance in GMPLS networks,
> specifically the dynamic LSP setup/release performance.  These
> metrics can depict the features of GMPLS networks in LSP dynamic
> provisioning.
>
>
>
> The IETF Secretariat.
>
>
> 

From rschrage@schrageconsult.net  Wed Aug 26 08:08:26 2009
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
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Hi Weiqiang,

sorry for late reply-

My responses/comments follow below your points.

We seem to be coming from different view points

Brgds.
Reinhard Schrage
Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
reinhard@schrageconsult.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Weiqiang Sun [mailto:sunwq@MIT.EDU] 
Sent: Freitag, 21. August 2009 08:59
To: Rschrage; 'Lou Berger'; 'Henk Uijterwaal'
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org; zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; 'IETF IPPM WG'
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]

Hi Reinhard,

Thanks for sending this part. See below for my responses.

[RS7]
Is there any help or suggestion on how to actually compute a usable 
Lambda_m?
[sunwq]
No. Depending on the performance of the implementation, the lambda_m can be 
very different, even under the same topology. A proper value of Lambda_m can

only be tuned in the testing.

[RS7a]
I am a bit at loss here.

It was my understanding that you use a metric to measure certain network
quantities, e.g. throughput, set up delays, etc.
In a second step you'd use these measured metrics to determine whether the
systems under test meet your previously expected or defined quality
parameters. If not, you'd make changes to the components or network design,
measure again, and compare the previous set of data to the one after the
change and see whether you have improved and are moving into the right
direction.

You seem to be coming from the other end, i.e. tweak the input parameters to
suit your system under test.

[RS8]
How to compare metrics that have been generated by two different Poisson 
processes, i.e. e.g. two different arrival rates?
[sunwq]
No way. Do we need to do that anyway?

[RS8a]
Pls also see my comments above.
If you cannot compare two sets of measurements how will you then arrive at
an objective study of the network components under test?



[RS9]
These sample tuples are dependent on the arrival rate Lambda_m. How to 
deduct this input parameter from a resulting sample?
For instance, if two result sample sets are given, how can we be sure that 
they can be compared?
[sunwq]
My understanding of the sample is that it is a sequence of singleton values 
obtained under a set of parameters. The parameters, such as Lambda_m, are 
not visible in the sample. However, when reporting the sample, the 
parameters must also be reported.

[RS9a]
OK. Noted and understood.


[RS10]
A superposition of two different Poisson processes is being used here.
How do you map the resulting RESV messages to the correct process, i.e. how 
to differentiate e.g. a late RESV message resulting from third PATH message 
in fourth invocation from an early RESV message solicited by first PATH 
message in fourth invocation?
[sunwq]
RESV messages can be differentiated by either MSG ID or non-overlapping LSP 
ID, or combined. The RSVP-TE protocol does that automatically. So I believe 
this is an RSVP-TE implementation issue, rather than a testing methodology 
issue.

[RS10a]
OK. Noted and understood.

[RS11]
????
[sunwq]
Well, the full text is like: "The percentile of Metric is defined as: given 
a metric and a percent X between 0% and 100%, the Xth percentile of all the 
dT values in the sample." Would it help a bit if sentence is replaced by the

full text above?
Please be noted that this text is inherited from the IPPM docs (See RFC 
2681, page 16, 4.1).

[RS11a]
The way it was written in the doc it was just a fragment of a sentence.
Unfortunately RFC 2681, page 16, 4.1. also does not give a proper
definition, as it too is just a fragmented sentence. 
RFC 2330, p.26, 11.3 gives a better explanation, as:
"We will use the term 'percentile' to refer to the smallest value of x for
which the empirical distribution function is greater or equal a given
percentage"

[RS12]
As stipulated in RFC2330 the EDF is defined as a function F(x) which for any

x gives the fractional proportion of the total measurements that were <= x. 
(see RFC2330 11.3 p26)
Hence F(90)=0.25, F(100)=0.5,F(110)=0.75, F(500)=1 and therefore the 50th 
percentile is defined as 100 as opposed to 110.
[sunwq]
Yes you are right with regard to RFC 2330. But we have used exactly the same

example as in RFC 2681 (page 16, section 4.1). The good thing is that the 
difference of the two calculations is very small when the number of 
measurement is large. Change needed?

[RS12a]
As outlined above RFC 2330 as opposed to RFC2681 gives a proper definition
of percentile. Therefore we should stick to RFC2330 and change accordingly.

It should be noted though, that also RFC2330 defines percentile differently
than it is done in the statistical literature, but we can live with this, as
it makes the definition easier to apply to measurement samples.

[------------------End of new comments---------------------]


And I realized that the points you have raised covered the main part of the 
text. We would expect your further comments regarding our responses. 
Otherwise we will assume that you are happy with it and will proceed to 
change the text based on the revision you sent in your previous email :)

Thank you again for your time in reviewing the draft so carefully.

Best regards,
Weiqiang

--
Weiqiang Sun
Shanghai Jiao Tong University
http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 9:57 PM
To: "'Weiqiang Sun'" <sunwq@MIT.EDU>; "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>; 
"'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
Cc: <ccamp@ietf.org>; <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" 
<ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]

> Hi all,
>
> pls find attached a further updated edition of previous revised doc
> draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06.
>
> I believe this is as far as we can go for the moment before a mutual
> satisfactory understanding has been reached and a new draft has been 
> issued
> by the authors.
>
> Again, pls feel free to comment.
>
> Many thanks.
> Brgds.
> Reinhard Schrage
> Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
> Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
> reinhard@schrageconsult.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Weiqiang Sun
> Sent: Mittwoch, 19. August 2009 09:28
> To: Rschrage; 'Lou Berger'; 'Henk Uijterwaal'
> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org; zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; 'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A,
> ATTLABS'; 'IETF IPPM WG'
> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>
> More responses below:
>
> RS4.
> Should be more specific as to why this metric is no simple function of
> single uni-directional LSP Setup Delay metric, i.e. why can it not be
> deduced from single LSP Setup Delay?
> [sunwq]
> This point is raised regarding the sentence "The time needed to setup a
> large number of LSPs during a short time period can not be deduced by 
> single
>
> LSP setup delay."
> One reason is that when a large number of LSPs in being setup during a 
> short
>
> period of time, the control plane may be crowded or even overwhelmed by 
> the
> large number of signaling and routing messages. This may significantly 
> slow
> down the processing of a particular signaling message, which will results 
> in
>
> longer LSP provisioning delays.
> Are you suggesting that we add similar explanations to the document? We'd
> love to do that if you feel it is necessary.
>
> RS5.
> The current definition only addresses multiple uni-directional LSP setups
> between two nodes ID0 and ID1. What about the the case when ID0 is to 
> setup
> multiple uni-directional LSP setups to different egress nodes ID1, ID2,
> ID3,.,IDN?
> [sunwq]
> Yes, it is a useful case. Likewise you would expect a case to establish a
> varied number of (instead of one) LSPs to a set of destinations. Our
> suggestion is that this case is approached by integrating the defined
> methodologies of single/multiple LSPs provisioning delay, in the form of a
> particular testing case, rather than a formal testing methodology. This is
> in fact a trade-off between complexity and accuracy.
>
> Best regards,
> Weiqiang
>
> --
> Weiqiang Sun
> Shanghai Jiao Tong University
> http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Weiqiang Sun" <sunwq@mit.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:48 PM
> To: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>; "'Lou Berger'"
> <lberger@labn.net>; "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
> Cc: <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS'"
> <dbrungard@att.com>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" <ippm@ietf.org>; <ccamp@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>
>> Hi Reinhard,
>>
>> Many thanks for doing the careful review. We appreciate your many wording
>> suggestions. We will go through these one by one and adopt those we feel
>> appropriate. In this email I will not list all the comments since these
>> will not lead to major technical changes.
>>
>> Below I try to respond to the points you raised in the revision.
>>
>> RS1.
>> This would imply that the metric may produce a range of several values at
>> one time with the minimum value to be taken from that range.
>> I believe what the authors are trying to say is, that the LSP Setup Delay
>> Metric provides a lower bound on all possible LSP Delay Metrics of
>> actually instantiated LSPs, or in other words: an actual LSP Delay Metric
>> cannot get smaller than an LSP Setup Delay Metric.
>> [sunwq]
>> This point is raised regarding the motivation of the sigleton definition
>> of Single Uni-directional LSP Setup Delay (ie. 4.1, para 2). We are 
>> trying
>
>> to say that the minimum value of this metric reflects the (likely) single
>> lsp setup delay when the control plane is lightly loaded. The formal
>> definition of the minimum value is in "14.1 The minimum of metric"
>> In fact we have inherited this from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681, 
>> page
>
>> 2 section 1.1 bullet 3).
>>
>> RS2.
>> How? Should there be a methodology be defined for this?
>> [sunwq]
>> This point is raised regarding the sentense in our methodologies
>> sections - "Make sure that the network has enough resource to set up the
>> requested LSP."
>> We have assumed that test personnel should have adequate expertise in
>> allocating enough resources for the testing. The allocation of resources
>> for the testing purpose can be very test specific and we believe it is
>> quite outside the scope of this document.
>>
>> RS3.
>> Too vague? As both timestamps are to be taken on the same ingress node,
>> they should be taken at the same application/network level.
>> [sunwq]
>> This point is raised regarding the sentense "If the corresponding RESV
>> message arrives within a reasonable period of time, take the timestamp
>> (T2) as soon as possible upon receipt of the message."
>> Yes, ideally the timestamp should be taken immediately after the 
>> reception
>
>> of the RESV message. The wording "as soon as possible" is used to allow
>> for some flexibility when RESV message needs to be propagated to certain
>> modules where timestamp-taking is most appropriate.
>> And again, this text is inherited from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681
>> page 7, bullet 3).
>>
>> Thanks again and looking forward to your further comments and revisions.
>>
>> Weiqiang
>>
>> --
>> Weiqiang Sun
>> Shanghai Jiao Tong University
>> http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 8:23 PM
>> To: "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>; "'Henk Uijterwaal'" 
>> <henk@ripe.net>
>> Cc: <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS'"
>> <dbrungard@att.com>; <sunwq@mit.edu>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" <ippm@ietf.org>;
>> <ccamp@ietf.org>
>> Subject: RE: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> sorry for late response-
>>>
>>> Nevertheless here is a first edition of my revision of doc
>>> draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06.
>>>
>>> The doc has been saved in Word 2003 format to easily track changes.
>>> I am using Kaspersky Anti Virus 2010 software so I trust there should be
>>> no
>>> unpleasant surprises when downloading the attached word doc.
>>>
>>>
>>> I thought it would be advisable to first address the suggested comments
>>> and
>>> questions upto and including the uni-directional LSP setup delay metric
>>> and
>>> after that to continue with the bi-directional and sample definitions as
>>> covered in the doc.
>>>
>>> Please let me have your thoughts on this.
>>>
>>> Many thanks.
>>> Reinhard Schrage
>>> Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
>>> Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
>>> reinhard@schrageconsult.com
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Lou
>>> Berger
>>> Sent: Dienstag, 28. Juli 2009 14:59
>>> To: Henk Uijterwaal
>>> Cc: zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS;
>>> sunwq@mit.edu; IETF IPPM WG
>>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>>
>>> Hank/Reinhard,
>>>
>>> Thank you very much for undertaking this review.  Please cc
>>> ccamp@ietf.org on any comments you may have.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>>> On 7/28/2009 6:47 AM, Henk Uijterwaal wrote:
>>>> Lou, others,
>>>>
>>>>> We received the request for a review of a document currently under
>>>>> discussion in the CCAMP WG, please see below.  Is there anybody who
>>>>> has time to do this review in the near future?
>>>>
>>>> Reinhard Schrage (rschrage@schrageconsult.net) has voluntered to do
>>>> this.
>>>>
>>>> Reinhard: please post anything you find to both the list and the
>>>> authors.
>>>> And thank you for doing this.
>>>>
>>>> Henk
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt & Henk
>>>>>
>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>> Subject: IPPM expert review request
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:57:41 -0400
>>>>> From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
>>>>> To: ippm-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>>>>> CC: Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS <dbrungard@att.com>, sunwq@mit.edu,
>>>>> zhangguoying <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>     We, the CCAMP WG chairs, would like to request that the IPPM WG
>>>>> review
>>>>> a draft that is progressing through the CCAMP WG.  This work applies
>>>>> IPPM approaches to GMPLS.  The document we'd like reviewed is
>>>>> available at:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this acceptable?  Can you undertake this review?  Alternatively, we
>>>>> can just last call the document in your WG (it has already passed 
>>>>> CCAMP
>>>>> WG LC).
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Lou (and Deborah)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ippm mailing list
>>> ippm@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>>
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>



> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 


From sunwq@MIT.EDU  Wed Aug 26 23:25:50 2009
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From: "Weiqiang Sun" <sunwq@MIT.EDU>
To: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>, "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>, "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
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Cc: ccamp@ietf.org, zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn, 'IETF IPPM WG' <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
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Hi Reinhard,

Thanks for responding. Please see inline.

>
> Thanks for sending this part. See below for my responses.
>
> [RS7]
> Is there any help or suggestion on how to actually compute a usable
> Lambda_m?
> [sunwq]
> No. Depending on the performance of the implementation, the lambda_m can 
> be
> very different, even under the same topology. A proper value of Lambda_m 
> can
> only be tuned in the testing.
>
> [RS7a]
> I am a bit at loss here.
>
> It was my understanding that you use a metric to measure certain network
> quantities, e.g. throughput, set up delays, etc.
> In a second step you'd use these measured metrics to determine whether the
> systems under test meet your previously expected or defined quality
> parameters. If not, you'd make changes to the components or network 
> design,
> measure again, and compare the previous set of data to the one after the
> change and see whether you have improved and are moving into the right
> direction.
>
> You seem to be coming from the other end, i.e. tweak the input parameters 
> to
> suit your system under test.
[sunwq]
OK, I get your point here.
What you said is true. I had thought by saying ``a usable lambda_m", you are 
saying that a lambda_m that is *best achievable* by the DUT/SUT.
If you are expecting certain performance from the DUT/SUT, then very likely 
you will have in mind an "expected" lambda_m, won't you?
The methodology here does not suggest how to select lambda_m. This in fact 
can provide flexibility. Either the test will use an expected lambda_m, or 
tune the lambda_m that reflects the best system performance, depending on 
the purpose of the test. Does this make sense?

>
> [RS8]
> How to compare metrics that have been generated by two different Poisson
> processes, i.e. e.g. two different arrival rates?
> [sunwq]
> No way. Do we need to do that anyway?
>
> [RS8a]
> Pls also see my comments above.
> If you cannot compare two sets of measurements how will you then arrive at
> an objective study of the network components under test?
[sunwq]
Maybe I misunderstood you again here. The Poisson arrival rate is an 
approximation of real traffic load. Of course it is worthwhile to find out 
how DUT/SUT performs when traffic load changes. But what else do you expect 
by comparing two data sets from different traffic load? Did I miss something 
here?

>
>
> [RS9]
> These sample tuples are dependent on the arrival rate Lambda_m. How to
> deduct this input parameter from a resulting sample?
> For instance, if two result sample sets are given, how can we be sure that
> they can be compared?
> [sunwq]
> My understanding of the sample is that it is a sequence of singleton 
> values
> obtained under a set of parameters. The parameters, such as Lambda_m, are
> not visible in the sample. However, when reporting the sample, the
> parameters must also be reported.
>
> [RS9a]
> OK. Noted and understood.
[sunwq]
Great, thanks.

>
>
> [RS10]
> A superposition of two different Poisson processes is being used here.
> How do you map the resulting RESV messages to the correct process, i.e. 
> how
> to differentiate e.g. a late RESV message resulting from third PATH 
> message
> in fourth invocation from an early RESV message solicited by first PATH
> message in fourth invocation?
> [sunwq]
> RESV messages can be differentiated by either MSG ID or non-overlapping 
> LSP
> ID, or combined. The RSVP-TE protocol does that automatically. So I 
> believe
> this is an RSVP-TE implementation issue, rather than a testing methodology
> issue.
>
> [RS10a]
> OK. Noted and understood.
[sunwq]
Great, thanks.

>
> [RS11]
> ????
> [sunwq]
> Well, the full text is like: "The percentile of Metric is defined as: 
> given
> a metric and a percent X between 0% and 100%, the Xth percentile of all 
> the
> dT values in the sample." Would it help a bit if sentence is replaced by 
> the
>
> full text above?
> Please be noted that this text is inherited from the IPPM docs (See RFC
> 2681, page 16, 4.1).
>
> [RS11a]
> The way it was written in the doc it was just a fragment of a sentence.
> Unfortunately RFC 2681, page 16, 4.1. also does not give a proper
> definition, as it too is just a fragmented sentence.
> RFC 2330, p.26, 11.3 gives a better explanation, as:
> "We will use the term 'percentile' to refer to the smallest value of x for
> which the empirical distribution function is greater or equal a given
> percentage"
[sunwq]
Well, to tell the truth I was troubled by this too. Later I realized that 
one reason that might lead to such a definition is that the authors of 2681 
had assumed that ``percentile" is a ``well known" term, and does not 
inheriting its definition from RFC 2330. And quite surprisingly wikipedia 
says "there is no standard definition of percentile." But wikipedia also 
says ``however all definitions yield similar results when the number of 
observations is large."

I will replace the original example with the following to avoid such a 
dilemma (of conflicting calculations in two RFCs).
============original text===============
   Example: suppose we take a sample and the results are: Stream1 = <
   <T1, 100 msec>, <T2, 110 msec>, <T3, undefined>, <T4, 90 msec>, <T5,
   500 msec> >

   Then the 50th percentile would be 110 msec, since 90 msec and 100
   msec are smaller, and 110 and 500 msec are larger (undefined values
   are not counted in).
============end of original text========

============new text===============
   Example: suppose we take a sample and the results are: Stream1 = <
   <T1, 100 msec>, <T2, 110 msec>, <T3, undefined>, <T4, 90 msec>, <T5,
   500 msec>, <T6, 350msec> >

   Then the 60th percentile would be 110 msec, since 90 msec and 100
   msec are smaller, and 110, 350 and 500 msec are larger (undefined values
   are not counted in).

   A more detailed definition of percentile may be found in RFC 2330.
============end of new text========


> [RS12]
> As stipulated in RFC2330 the EDF is defined as a function F(x) which for 
> any
>
> x gives the fractional proportion of the total measurements that were <= 
> x.
> (see RFC2330 11.3 p26)
> Hence F(90)=0.25, F(100)=0.5,F(110)=0.75, F(500)=1 and therefore the 50th
> percentile is defined as 100 as opposed to 110.
> [sunwq]
> Yes you are right with regard to RFC 2330. But we have used exactly the 
> same
>
> example as in RFC 2681 (page 16, section 4.1). The good thing is that the
> difference of the two calculations is very small when the number of
> measurement is large. Change needed?
>
> [RS12a]
> As outlined above RFC 2330 as opposed to RFC2681 gives a proper definition
> of percentile. Therefore we should stick to RFC2330 and change 
> accordingly.
>
> It should be noted though, that also RFC2330 defines percentile 
> differently
> than it is done in the statistical literature, but we can live with this, 
> as
> it makes the definition easier to apply to measurement samples.
Good point, thanks for explaining. I hope the change above is satisfactory 
for you.


Thanks and best regards,
Weiqiang

>
> [------------------End of new comments---------------------]
>
>
> And I realized that the points you have raised covered the main part of 
> the
> text. We would expect your further comments regarding our responses.
> Otherwise we will assume that you are happy with it and will proceed to
> change the text based on the revision you sent in your previous email :)
>
> Thank you again for your time in reviewing the draft so carefully.
>
> Best regards,
> Weiqiang
>
> --
> Weiqiang Sun
> Shanghai Jiao Tong University
> http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 9:57 PM
> To: "'Weiqiang Sun'" <sunwq@MIT.EDU>; "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>;
> "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
> Cc: <ccamp@ietf.org>; <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'IETF IPPM WG'"
> <ippm@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> pls find attached a further updated edition of previous revised doc
>> draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06.
>>
>> I believe this is as far as we can go for the moment before a mutual
>> satisfactory understanding has been reached and a new draft has been
>> issued
>> by the authors.
>>
>> Again, pls feel free to comment.
>>
>> Many thanks.
>> Brgds.
>> Reinhard Schrage
>> Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
>> Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
>> reinhard@schrageconsult.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> Weiqiang Sun
>> Sent: Mittwoch, 19. August 2009 09:28
>> To: Rschrage; 'Lou Berger'; 'Henk Uijterwaal'
>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org; zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; 'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A,
>> ATTLABS'; 'IETF IPPM WG'
>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>
>> More responses below:
>>
>> RS4.
>> Should be more specific as to why this metric is no simple function of
>> single uni-directional LSP Setup Delay metric, i.e. why can it not be
>> deduced from single LSP Setup Delay?
>> [sunwq]
>> This point is raised regarding the sentence "The time needed to setup a
>> large number of LSPs during a short time period can not be deduced by
>> single
>>
>> LSP setup delay."
>> One reason is that when a large number of LSPs in being setup during a
>> short
>>
>> period of time, the control plane may be crowded or even overwhelmed by
>> the
>> large number of signaling and routing messages. This may significantly
>> slow
>> down the processing of a particular signaling message, which will results
>> in
>>
>> longer LSP provisioning delays.
>> Are you suggesting that we add similar explanations to the document? We'd
>> love to do that if you feel it is necessary.
>>
>> RS5.
>> The current definition only addresses multiple uni-directional LSP setups
>> between two nodes ID0 and ID1. What about the the case when ID0 is to
>> setup
>> multiple uni-directional LSP setups to different egress nodes ID1, ID2,
>> ID3,.,IDN?
>> [sunwq]
>> Yes, it is a useful case. Likewise you would expect a case to establish a
>> varied number of (instead of one) LSPs to a set of destinations. Our
>> suggestion is that this case is approached by integrating the defined
>> methodologies of single/multiple LSPs provisioning delay, in the form of 
>> a
>> particular testing case, rather than a formal testing methodology. This 
>> is
>> in fact a trade-off between complexity and accuracy.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Weiqiang
>>
>> --
>> Weiqiang Sun
>> Shanghai Jiao Tong University
>> http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Weiqiang Sun" <sunwq@mit.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:48 PM
>> To: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>; "'Lou Berger'"
>> <lberger@labn.net>; "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
>> Cc: <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS'"
>> <dbrungard@att.com>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" <ippm@ietf.org>; <ccamp@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>
>>> Hi Reinhard,
>>>
>>> Many thanks for doing the careful review. We appreciate your many 
>>> wording
>>> suggestions. We will go through these one by one and adopt those we feel
>>> appropriate. In this email I will not list all the comments since these
>>> will not lead to major technical changes.
>>>
>>> Below I try to respond to the points you raised in the revision.
>>>
>>> RS1.
>>> This would imply that the metric may produce a range of several values 
>>> at
>>> one time with the minimum value to be taken from that range.
>>> I believe what the authors are trying to say is, that the LSP Setup 
>>> Delay
>>> Metric provides a lower bound on all possible LSP Delay Metrics of
>>> actually instantiated LSPs, or in other words: an actual LSP Delay 
>>> Metric
>>> cannot get smaller than an LSP Setup Delay Metric.
>>> [sunwq]
>>> This point is raised regarding the motivation of the sigleton definition
>>> of Single Uni-directional LSP Setup Delay (ie. 4.1, para 2). We are
>>> trying
>>
>>> to say that the minimum value of this metric reflects the (likely) 
>>> single
>>> lsp setup delay when the control plane is lightly loaded. The formal
>>> definition of the minimum value is in "14.1 The minimum of metric"
>>> In fact we have inherited this from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681,
>>> page
>>
>>> 2 section 1.1 bullet 3).
>>>
>>> RS2.
>>> How? Should there be a methodology be defined for this?
>>> [sunwq]
>>> This point is raised regarding the sentense in our methodologies
>>> sections - "Make sure that the network has enough resource to set up the
>>> requested LSP."
>>> We have assumed that test personnel should have adequate expertise in
>>> allocating enough resources for the testing. The allocation of resources
>>> for the testing purpose can be very test specific and we believe it is
>>> quite outside the scope of this document.
>>>
>>> RS3.
>>> Too vague? As both timestamps are to be taken on the same ingress node,
>>> they should be taken at the same application/network level.
>>> [sunwq]
>>> This point is raised regarding the sentense "If the corresponding RESV
>>> message arrives within a reasonable period of time, take the timestamp
>>> (T2) as soon as possible upon receipt of the message."
>>> Yes, ideally the timestamp should be taken immediately after the
>>> reception
>>
>>> of the RESV message. The wording "as soon as possible" is used to allow
>>> for some flexibility when RESV message needs to be propagated to certain
>>> modules where timestamp-taking is most appropriate.
>>> And again, this text is inherited from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681
>>> page 7, bullet 3).
>>>
>>> Thanks again and looking forward to your further comments and revisions.
>>>
>>> Weiqiang
>>>
>>> --
>>> Weiqiang Sun
>>> Shanghai Jiao Tong University
>>> http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 8:23 PM
>>> To: "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>; "'Henk Uijterwaal'"
>>> <henk@ripe.net>
>>> Cc: <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS'"
>>> <dbrungard@att.com>; <sunwq@mit.edu>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" <ippm@ietf.org>;
>>> <ccamp@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: RE: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> sorry for late response-
>>>>
>>>> Nevertheless here is a first edition of my revision of doc
>>>> draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06.
>>>>
>>>> The doc has been saved in Word 2003 format to easily track changes.
>>>> I am using Kaspersky Anti Virus 2010 software so I trust there should 
>>>> be
>>>> no
>>>> unpleasant surprises when downloading the attached word doc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I thought it would be advisable to first address the suggested comments
>>>> and
>>>> questions upto and including the uni-directional LSP setup delay metric
>>>> and
>>>> after that to continue with the bi-directional and sample definitions 
>>>> as
>>>> covered in the doc.
>>>>
>>>> Please let me have your thoughts on this.
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks.
>>>> Reinhard Schrage
>>>> Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
>>>> Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
>>>> reinhard@schrageconsult.com
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> Lou
>>>> Berger
>>>> Sent: Dienstag, 28. Juli 2009 14:59
>>>> To: Henk Uijterwaal
>>>> Cc: zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS;
>>>> sunwq@mit.edu; IETF IPPM WG
>>>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>>>
>>>> Hank/Reinhard,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you very much for undertaking this review.  Please cc
>>>> ccamp@ietf.org on any comments you may have.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>> On 7/28/2009 6:47 AM, Henk Uijterwaal wrote:
>>>>> Lou, others,
>>>>>
>>>>>> We received the request for a review of a document currently under
>>>>>> discussion in the CCAMP WG, please see below.  Is there anybody who
>>>>>> has time to do this review in the near future?
>>>>>
>>>>> Reinhard Schrage (rschrage@schrageconsult.net) has voluntered to do
>>>>> this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Reinhard: please post anything you find to both the list and the
>>>>> authors.
>>>>> And thank you for doing this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Henk
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matt & Henk
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>> Subject: IPPM expert review request
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:57:41 -0400
>>>>>> From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
>>>>>> To: ippm-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>>>>>> CC: Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS <dbrungard@att.com>, sunwq@mit.edu,
>>>>>> zhangguoying <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>     We, the CCAMP WG chairs, would like to request that the IPPM WG
>>>>>> review
>>>>>> a draft that is progressing through the CCAMP WG.  This work applies
>>>>>> IPPM approaches to GMPLS.  The document we'd like reviewed is
>>>>>> available at:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this acceptable?  Can you undertake this review?  Alternatively, 
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> can just last call the document in your WG (it has already passed
>>>>>> CCAMP
>>>>>> WG LC).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>> Lou (and Deborah)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ippm mailing list
>>>> ippm@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ippm mailing list
>> ippm@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>
>
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>
> 

From sunwq@MIT.EDU  Wed Aug 26 23:26:13 2009
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From: "Weiqiang Sun" <sunwq@MIT.EDU>
To: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>, "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>, "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
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Cc: ccamp@ietf.org, zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn, 'IETF IPPM WG' <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
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Hi Reinhard,

Thanks for responding. Please see inline.

>
> Thanks for sending this part. See below for my responses.
>
> [RS7]
> Is there any help or suggestion on how to actually compute a usable
> Lambda_m?
> [sunwq]
> No. Depending on the performance of the implementation, the lambda_m can 
> be
> very different, even under the same topology. A proper value of Lambda_m 
> can
> only be tuned in the testing.
>
> [RS7a]
> I am a bit at loss here.
>
> It was my understanding that you use a metric to measure certain network
> quantities, e.g. throughput, set up delays, etc.
> In a second step you'd use these measured metrics to determine whether the
> systems under test meet your previously expected or defined quality
> parameters. If not, you'd make changes to the components or network 
> design,
> measure again, and compare the previous set of data to the one after the
> change and see whether you have improved and are moving into the right
> direction.
>
> You seem to be coming from the other end, i.e. tweak the input parameters 
> to
> suit your system under test.
[sunwq]
OK, I get your point here.
What you said is true. I had thought by saying ``a usable lambda_m", you are 
saying that a lambda_m that is *best achievable* by the DUT/SUT.
If you are expecting certain performance from the DUT/SUT, then very likely 
you will have in mind an "expected" lambda_m, won't you?
The methodology here does not suggest how to select lambda_m. This in fact 
can provide flexibility. Either the test will use an expected lambda_m, or 
tune the lambda_m that reflects the best system performance, depending on 
the purpose of the test. Does this make sense?

>
> [RS8]
> How to compare metrics that have been generated by two different Poisson
> processes, i.e. e.g. two different arrival rates?
> [sunwq]
> No way. Do we need to do that anyway?
>
> [RS8a]
> Pls also see my comments above.
> If you cannot compare two sets of measurements how will you then arrive at
> an objective study of the network components under test?
[sunwq]
Maybe I misunderstood you again here. The Poisson arrival rate is an 
approximation of real traffic load. Of course it is worthwhile to find out 
how DUT/SUT performs when traffic load changes. But what else do you expect 
by comparing two data sets from different traffic load? Did I miss something 
here?

>
>
> [RS9]
> These sample tuples are dependent on the arrival rate Lambda_m. How to
> deduct this input parameter from a resulting sample?
> For instance, if two result sample sets are given, how can we be sure that
> they can be compared?
> [sunwq]
> My understanding of the sample is that it is a sequence of singleton 
> values
> obtained under a set of parameters. The parameters, such as Lambda_m, are
> not visible in the sample. However, when reporting the sample, the
> parameters must also be reported.
>
> [RS9a]
> OK. Noted and understood.
[sunwq]
Great, thanks.

>
>
> [RS10]
> A superposition of two different Poisson processes is being used here.
> How do you map the resulting RESV messages to the correct process, i.e. 
> how
> to differentiate e.g. a late RESV message resulting from third PATH 
> message
> in fourth invocation from an early RESV message solicited by first PATH
> message in fourth invocation?
> [sunwq]
> RESV messages can be differentiated by either MSG ID or non-overlapping 
> LSP
> ID, or combined. The RSVP-TE protocol does that automatically. So I 
> believe
> this is an RSVP-TE implementation issue, rather than a testing methodology
> issue.
>
> [RS10a]
> OK. Noted and understood.
[sunwq]
Great, thanks.

>
> [RS11]
> ????
> [sunwq]
> Well, the full text is like: "The percentile of Metric is defined as: 
> given
> a metric and a percent X between 0% and 100%, the Xth percentile of all 
> the
> dT values in the sample." Would it help a bit if sentence is replaced by 
> the
>
> full text above?
> Please be noted that this text is inherited from the IPPM docs (See RFC
> 2681, page 16, 4.1).
>
> [RS11a]
> The way it was written in the doc it was just a fragment of a sentence.
> Unfortunately RFC 2681, page 16, 4.1. also does not give a proper
> definition, as it too is just a fragmented sentence.
> RFC 2330, p.26, 11.3 gives a better explanation, as:
> "We will use the term 'percentile' to refer to the smallest value of x for
> which the empirical distribution function is greater or equal a given
> percentage"
[sunwq]
Well, to tell the truth I was troubled by this too. Later I realized that 
one reason that might lead to such a definition is that the authors of 2681 
had assumed that ``percentile" is a ``well known" term, and does not 
inheriting its definition from RFC 2330. And quite surprisingly wikipedia 
says "there is no standard definition of percentile." But wikipedia also 
says ``however all definitions yield similar results when the number of 
observations is large."

I will replace the original example with the following to avoid such a 
dilemma (of conflicting calculations in two RFCs).
============original text===============
   Example: suppose we take a sample and the results are: Stream1 = <
   <T1, 100 msec>, <T2, 110 msec>, <T3, undefined>, <T4, 90 msec>, <T5,
   500 msec> >

   Then the 50th percentile would be 110 msec, since 90 msec and 100
   msec are smaller, and 110 and 500 msec are larger (undefined values
   are not counted in).
============end of original text========

============new text===============
   Example: suppose we take a sample and the results are: Stream1 = <
   <T1, 100 msec>, <T2, 110 msec>, <T3, undefined>, <T4, 90 msec>, <T5,
   500 msec>, <T6, 350msec> >

   Then the 60th percentile would be 110 msec, since 90 msec and 100
   msec are smaller, and 110, 350 and 500 msec are larger (undefined values
   are not counted in).

   A more detailed definition of percentile may be found in RFC 2330.
============end of new text========


> [RS12]
> As stipulated in RFC2330 the EDF is defined as a function F(x) which for 
> any
>
> x gives the fractional proportion of the total measurements that were <= 
> x.
> (see RFC2330 11.3 p26)
> Hence F(90)=0.25, F(100)=0.5,F(110)=0.75, F(500)=1 and therefore the 50th
> percentile is defined as 100 as opposed to 110.
> [sunwq]
> Yes you are right with regard to RFC 2330. But we have used exactly the 
> same
>
> example as in RFC 2681 (page 16, section 4.1). The good thing is that the
> difference of the two calculations is very small when the number of
> measurement is large. Change needed?
>
> [RS12a]
> As outlined above RFC 2330 as opposed to RFC2681 gives a proper definition
> of percentile. Therefore we should stick to RFC2330 and change 
> accordingly.
>
> It should be noted though, that also RFC2330 defines percentile 
> differently
> than it is done in the statistical literature, but we can live with this, 
> as
> it makes the definition easier to apply to measurement samples.
Good point, thanks for explaining. I hope the change above is satisfactory 
for you.


Thanks and best regards,
Weiqiang

>
> [------------------End of new comments---------------------]
>
>
> And I realized that the points you have raised covered the main part of 
> the
> text. We would expect your further comments regarding our responses.
> Otherwise we will assume that you are happy with it and will proceed to
> change the text based on the revision you sent in your previous email :)
>
> Thank you again for your time in reviewing the draft so carefully.
>
> Best regards,
> Weiqiang
>
> --
> Weiqiang Sun
> Shanghai Jiao Tong University
> http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 9:57 PM
> To: "'Weiqiang Sun'" <sunwq@MIT.EDU>; "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>;
> "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
> Cc: <ccamp@ietf.org>; <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'IETF IPPM WG'"
> <ippm@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> pls find attached a further updated edition of previous revised doc
>> draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06.
>>
>> I believe this is as far as we can go for the moment before a mutual
>> satisfactory understanding has been reached and a new draft has been
>> issued
>> by the authors.
>>
>> Again, pls feel free to comment.
>>
>> Many thanks.
>> Brgds.
>> Reinhard Schrage
>> Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
>> Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
>> reinhard@schrageconsult.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> Weiqiang Sun
>> Sent: Mittwoch, 19. August 2009 09:28
>> To: Rschrage; 'Lou Berger'; 'Henk Uijterwaal'
>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org; zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; 'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A,
>> ATTLABS'; 'IETF IPPM WG'
>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>
>> More responses below:
>>
>> RS4.
>> Should be more specific as to why this metric is no simple function of
>> single uni-directional LSP Setup Delay metric, i.e. why can it not be
>> deduced from single LSP Setup Delay?
>> [sunwq]
>> This point is raised regarding the sentence "The time needed to setup a
>> large number of LSPs during a short time period can not be deduced by
>> single
>>
>> LSP setup delay."
>> One reason is that when a large number of LSPs in being setup during a
>> short
>>
>> period of time, the control plane may be crowded or even overwhelmed by
>> the
>> large number of signaling and routing messages. This may significantly
>> slow
>> down the processing of a particular signaling message, which will results
>> in
>>
>> longer LSP provisioning delays.
>> Are you suggesting that we add similar explanations to the document? We'd
>> love to do that if you feel it is necessary.
>>
>> RS5.
>> The current definition only addresses multiple uni-directional LSP setups
>> between two nodes ID0 and ID1. What about the the case when ID0 is to
>> setup
>> multiple uni-directional LSP setups to different egress nodes ID1, ID2,
>> ID3,.,IDN?
>> [sunwq]
>> Yes, it is a useful case. Likewise you would expect a case to establish a
>> varied number of (instead of one) LSPs to a set of destinations. Our
>> suggestion is that this case is approached by integrating the defined
>> methodologies of single/multiple LSPs provisioning delay, in the form of 
>> a
>> particular testing case, rather than a formal testing methodology. This 
>> is
>> in fact a trade-off between complexity and accuracy.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Weiqiang
>>
>> --
>> Weiqiang Sun
>> Shanghai Jiao Tong University
>> http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Weiqiang Sun" <sunwq@mit.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:48 PM
>> To: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>; "'Lou Berger'"
>> <lberger@labn.net>; "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
>> Cc: <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS'"
>> <dbrungard@att.com>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" <ippm@ietf.org>; <ccamp@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>
>>> Hi Reinhard,
>>>
>>> Many thanks for doing the careful review. We appreciate your many 
>>> wording
>>> suggestions. We will go through these one by one and adopt those we feel
>>> appropriate. In this email I will not list all the comments since these
>>> will not lead to major technical changes.
>>>
>>> Below I try to respond to the points you raised in the revision.
>>>
>>> RS1.
>>> This would imply that the metric may produce a range of several values 
>>> at
>>> one time with the minimum value to be taken from that range.
>>> I believe what the authors are trying to say is, that the LSP Setup 
>>> Delay
>>> Metric provides a lower bound on all possible LSP Delay Metrics of
>>> actually instantiated LSPs, or in other words: an actual LSP Delay 
>>> Metric
>>> cannot get smaller than an LSP Setup Delay Metric.
>>> [sunwq]
>>> This point is raised regarding the motivation of the sigleton definition
>>> of Single Uni-directional LSP Setup Delay (ie. 4.1, para 2). We are
>>> trying
>>
>>> to say that the minimum value of this metric reflects the (likely) 
>>> single
>>> lsp setup delay when the control plane is lightly loaded. The formal
>>> definition of the minimum value is in "14.1 The minimum of metric"
>>> In fact we have inherited this from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681,
>>> page
>>
>>> 2 section 1.1 bullet 3).
>>>
>>> RS2.
>>> How? Should there be a methodology be defined for this?
>>> [sunwq]
>>> This point is raised regarding the sentense in our methodologies
>>> sections - "Make sure that the network has enough resource to set up the
>>> requested LSP."
>>> We have assumed that test personnel should have adequate expertise in
>>> allocating enough resources for the testing. The allocation of resources
>>> for the testing purpose can be very test specific and we believe it is
>>> quite outside the scope of this document.
>>>
>>> RS3.
>>> Too vague? As both timestamps are to be taken on the same ingress node,
>>> they should be taken at the same application/network level.
>>> [sunwq]
>>> This point is raised regarding the sentense "If the corresponding RESV
>>> message arrives within a reasonable period of time, take the timestamp
>>> (T2) as soon as possible upon receipt of the message."
>>> Yes, ideally the timestamp should be taken immediately after the
>>> reception
>>
>>> of the RESV message. The wording "as soon as possible" is used to allow
>>> for some flexibility when RESV message needs to be propagated to certain
>>> modules where timestamp-taking is most appropriate.
>>> And again, this text is inherited from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681
>>> page 7, bullet 3).
>>>
>>> Thanks again and looking forward to your further comments and revisions.
>>>
>>> Weiqiang
>>>
>>> --
>>> Weiqiang Sun
>>> Shanghai Jiao Tong University
>>> http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 8:23 PM
>>> To: "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>; "'Henk Uijterwaal'"
>>> <henk@ripe.net>
>>> Cc: <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS'"
>>> <dbrungard@att.com>; <sunwq@mit.edu>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" <ippm@ietf.org>;
>>> <ccamp@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: RE: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> sorry for late response-
>>>>
>>>> Nevertheless here is a first edition of my revision of doc
>>>> draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06.
>>>>
>>>> The doc has been saved in Word 2003 format to easily track changes.
>>>> I am using Kaspersky Anti Virus 2010 software so I trust there should 
>>>> be
>>>> no
>>>> unpleasant surprises when downloading the attached word doc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I thought it would be advisable to first address the suggested comments
>>>> and
>>>> questions upto and including the uni-directional LSP setup delay metric
>>>> and
>>>> after that to continue with the bi-directional and sample definitions 
>>>> as
>>>> covered in the doc.
>>>>
>>>> Please let me have your thoughts on this.
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks.
>>>> Reinhard Schrage
>>>> Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
>>>> Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
>>>> reinhard@schrageconsult.com
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> Lou
>>>> Berger
>>>> Sent: Dienstag, 28. Juli 2009 14:59
>>>> To: Henk Uijterwaal
>>>> Cc: zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS;
>>>> sunwq@mit.edu; IETF IPPM WG
>>>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>>>
>>>> Hank/Reinhard,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you very much for undertaking this review.  Please cc
>>>> ccamp@ietf.org on any comments you may have.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>> On 7/28/2009 6:47 AM, Henk Uijterwaal wrote:
>>>>> Lou, others,
>>>>>
>>>>>> We received the request for a review of a document currently under
>>>>>> discussion in the CCAMP WG, please see below.  Is there anybody who
>>>>>> has time to do this review in the near future?
>>>>>
>>>>> Reinhard Schrage (rschrage@schrageconsult.net) has voluntered to do
>>>>> this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Reinhard: please post anything you find to both the list and the
>>>>> authors.
>>>>> And thank you for doing this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Henk
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matt & Henk
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>> Subject: IPPM expert review request
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:57:41 -0400
>>>>>> From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
>>>>>> To: ippm-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>>>>>> CC: Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS <dbrungard@att.com>, sunwq@mit.edu,
>>>>>> zhangguoying <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>     We, the CCAMP WG chairs, would like to request that the IPPM WG
>>>>>> review
>>>>>> a draft that is progressing through the CCAMP WG.  This work applies
>>>>>> IPPM approaches to GMPLS.  The document we'd like reviewed is
>>>>>> available at:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this acceptable?  Can you undertake this review?  Alternatively, 
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> can just last call the document in your WG (it has already passed
>>>>>> CCAMP
>>>>>> WG LC).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>> Lou (and Deborah)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ippm mailing list
>>>> ippm@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ippm mailing list
>> ippm@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>
>
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>
> 

From loa@pi.nu  Thu Aug 27 06:01:48 2009
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From: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
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Subject: [CCAMP] working group last call on draft-ietf-mpls-tp-gach-dcn-05.txt
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All,

this is to start a working group last call on
draft-ietf-mpls-tp-gach-dcn-05.txt

Please send your comments to the mpls-tp@ietf.org mailing list,
i.e. do not simply "reply all" to this mail, but make sure
it is directed to the correct mailing list.

The working group last call en Sep 12, 2009.

/Loa


-- 


Loa Andersson                         email: loa.andersson@ericsson.com
Sr Strategy and Standards Manager            loa@pi.nu
Ericsson Inc                          phone: +46 10 717 52 13
                                              +46 767 72 92 13

From lberger@labn.net  Thu Aug 27 06:57:07 2009
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Subject: [CCAMP] [Fwd: Re: Fw: New Version Notification for	draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-07]
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Looks like the LabN and IETF servers have decided to not talk to each
other, so this message didn't make it to the list.

Lou

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Fw: New Version Notification for
draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-07
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 09:08:00 -0400
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
To: Weiqiang Sun <sunwq@MIT.EDU>
CC: ccamp@ietf.org, IPPM WG IETF <ippm@ietf.org>,  Henk Uijterwaal
<henk@ripe.net>, Rschrage <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>

Weiqiang,
	Thank you for the quick update!  I believe Reinhard thought he might
have some additional comments.

Reinhard,
	Thank you again for your expert review.  Can you confirm if the
document has been fully reviewed?  If it is not, can you give an
estimate on how long you need to complete the review?

Much thanks,
Lou

On 8/25/2009 10:16 PM, Weiqiang Sun wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Thanks to Reinhard Schrage, we now have a better version of the DPPM
> draft uploaded.
> In this revision, no technical changes are made.
> 
> And, as per Tom's comments, we have droped the following two sentenses.
> - They can also be used in operational networks for carriers to monitor
>  the control plane performance in realtime.
> 
> - On the other hand, it can also be used in operational environments for
>   carriers to monitor the control plane operation in real-time.  For
>   example, a new object can be added to GMPLS TE STD MIB [RFC4802] so
>   that the current and past control plane performance can be monitored
>   through network management systems.  The extension of TE-MIB to
>   support the defined metrics is outside the scope of this document.
> 
> As the document has passed WGLC, we would like to pass it back to the
> hands of our chairs
> for further processing.
> 
> Thanks and best regards,
> Weiqiang
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "IETF I-D Submission Tool" <idsubmission@ietf.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:04 AM
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-07
> 
>>
>> A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-07.txt has been
>> successfuly submitted by Weiqiang Sun and posted to the IETF repository.
>>
>> Filename: draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm
>> Revision: 07
>> Title: Label Switched Path (LSP) Dynamic Provisioning Performance
>> Metrics in Generalized MPLS Networks
>> Creation_date: 2009-08-26
>> WG ID: ccamp
>> Number_of_pages: 49
>>
>> Abstract:
>> Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) is one of the most
>> promising candidate technologies for future data transmission
>> network.  GMPLS has been developed to control and operate different
>> kinds of network elements, such as conventional routers, switches,
>> Dense Wavelength Division Multiplexing (DWDM) systems, Add- Drop
>> Multiplexers (ADMs), photonic cross-connects (PXCs), optical cross-
>> connects (OXCs), etc.  Dynamic provisioning ability of these
>> physically diverse devices differs from each other drastically.  At
>> the same time, the need for dynamically provisioned connections is
>> increasing because optical networks are being deployed in metro
>> areas.  As different applications have varied requirements in the
>> provisioning performance of optical networks, it is imperative to
>> define standardized metrics and procedures such that the performance
>> of networks and application needs can be mapped to each other.
>>
>> This document provides a series of performance metrics to evaluate
>> the dynamic LSP provisioning performance in GMPLS networks,
>> specifically the dynamic LSP setup/release performance.  These
>> metrics can depict the features of GMPLS networks in LSP dynamic
>> provisioning.
>>
>>
>>
>> The IETF Secretariat.
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 
> 
> 

From web-usrn@ISI.EDU  Thu Aug 27 11:49:57 2009
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Subject: [CCAMP] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4803 (1841)
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The following errata report has been submitted for RFC4803,
"Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switching Router (LSR) Management Information Base".

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=4803&eid=1841

--------------------------------------
Type: Technical
Reported by: Girish Mahanta <girishm@ipinfusion.com>

Section: Section 7

Original Text
-------------
gmplsOutSegmentTTLDecrement OBJECT-TYPE
SYNTAX Unsigned32
MAX-ACCESS read-create
STATUS current
DESCRIPTION
"This object indicates the amount by which to decrement the Time
to Live (TTL) of any payload packets forwarded on this segment if
per-hop decrementing is being done.
A value of zero indicates that no decrement should be made or
that per-hop decrementing is not in use.
See the gmplsTunnelTTLDecrement object in the gmplsTunnelTable
of GMPLS-TE-STD-MIB for a value by which to decrement the TTL
for the whole of a tunnel.
This object cannot be modified if mplsOutSegmentRowStatus for
the associated entry in the mplsOutSegmentTable is active(1)."
REFERENCE
"1. Time To Live (TTL) Processing in Multi-Protocol Label
Switching (MPLS) Networks, RFC 3443.
2. Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Traffic
Engineering Management Information Base, RFC 4802."
DEFVAL { 0 }
::= { gmplsOutSegmentEntry 2 }

Corrected Text
--------------
gmplsOutSegmentTTLDecrement OBJECT-TYPE
SYNTAX Unsigned32
MAX-ACCESS read-create
STATUS current
DESCRIPTION
"This object indicates the amount by which to decrement the Time
to Live (TTL) of any payload packets forwarded on this segment if
per-hop decrementing is being done.
A value of zero indicates that no decrement should be made or
that per-hop decrementing is not in use.
This object cannot be modified if mplsOutSegmentRowStatus for
the associated entry in the mplsOutSegmentTable is active(1)."
REFERENCE
"1. Time To Live (TTL) Processing in Multi-Protocol Label
Switching (MPLS) Networks, RFC 3443."
DEFVAL { 0 }
::= { gmplsOutSegmentEntry 2 }

Notes
-----
In gmplsOutSegmentTable for the object gmplsOutSegmentTTLDecrement there is no gmplsTunnelTTLDecrement object in the gmplsTunnelTable of GMPLS-TE-STD-MIB which is referenced.

Instructions:
-------------
This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG)
can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. 

--------------------------------------
RFC4803 (draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-lsr-mib-15)
--------------------------------------
Title               : Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switching Router (LSR) Management Information Base
Publication Date    : February 2007
Author(s)           : T. Nadeau, Ed., A. Farrel, Ed.
Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
Source              : Common Control and Measurement Plane
Area                : Routing
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG

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Subject: [CCAMP] please ignore
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A test message, please ignore.

Thanks & my apologies.



From ma-miyazawa@kddilabs.jp  Fri Aug 28 03:40:47 2009
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Cc: "'Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)'" <dromasca@avaya.com>, ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] MIB Dr. review of draft-ietf-gmpls-ted-mib-5.txt
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Hi Joan,

Thank you for your comments.
We had finished update and modification according to your comments.

Please see our answer to your comments as below and let us know if you have
any question.

Regards, 
Masanori

> MIB Compiler output:
> =======================
> 
> E: f(TED-MIB.my), (460,4) Index item "teLocalIntAddrIndex" must be 
> defined with syntax that includes a range
> E: f(TED-MIB.my), (518,49) Index item "teRemoteIntAddrIndex" must be 
> defined with syntax that includes a range
> E: f(TED-MIB.my), (579,53) Index item "teSwCapIndex" must be defined 
> with syntax that includes a range
> E: f(TED-MIB.my), (765,53) Index item "teSrlgIndex" must be defined 
> with syntax that includes a range

*** We modified "SYNTAX" of index to "Unsigned32 (1..4294967295)".

> Line  Severity  Problem
> 109 5 warning: index element `teAreaId' of row `tedEntry' should be 
> not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB
>        5 warning: index element `teRouterId' of row `tedEntry' should 
> be not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB
>        5 warning: index element `teLinkStateId' of row `tedEntry' 
> should be not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB
> 926 5 warning: current group `tedNotificationGroup' is not referenced 
> in this module

***Using smiLint, we got 4 errors, however these index objects are needed to
set MAX-ACCESS to "read-only" because these objects are used for value of
notification.

> General Discussion
> ------------------

> * In what GMPLS WG document is this functionality defined?

***This functionality of traffic engineering database (TED) is defined in
RFC3630 (Traffic Engineering (TE) Extensions to OSPF Version 2). And also,
supporting IS-IS and GMPLS technologies as well as OSPF, this MIB is defined
in RFC4203(OSPF Extensions in Support of Generalized Multi-Protocol Label
Switching), RFC3784(IS-IS extensions for Traffic Engineering) and RFC4205
(Intermediate System to Intermediate System (IS-IS) Extensions in Support of
Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS).

 
> * The names in this MIB are not prefixed consistently.
> Please see Appendix C of RFC4181.
> 
> For example, TED-MIB is the MIB's name, and then TedEntry, but the 
> objects in this table are prefixed by "te" (but "ted"
> would
> be more consistent.)
> 

***The name of objects in Ted Table was changed from "te" to "ted". And
also, for ensuring consistency, we also changed the table name as well as
object name in teLocalIfAddrTable and teRemoteIfAddrTable,teSwCapTable and
teSrlgTable.

"teLocalIfAddrTable" ->  "tedLocalIfAddrTable"
"teRemoteIfAddrTable" -> "tedRemoteIfAddrTable"
"teSwCapTable" ->  "tedSwCapTable"
"teSrlgTable" -> "tedSrlgTable"


> The abbreviation for interface is "int" but would prefer either "if"
> or "intf".

*** We modified the abbreviation for interface from "int" to "if".

 
> * With the exception of 2 objects, the MIB consists of read-only objects.
> While this is fine in and of itself, there are several places in the 
> text that the authors warn that if local configuration is done then 
> routing needs to be triggered so the new configuration gets dispersed.  
> When looking at these MIB tables, is there any way to tell if the 
> information is currently in use or not?
> 
*** In this mib, when information is not in use or not configured, there is
no reply from SNMP agent, conversely, when information is in use, there is
reply. 


> Specific Comments (in order of document)
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> * Table of Contents
> 
> s/Author's Address/Authors' Addresses/

*** Revised

> 
> * TOC is missing "Informative References" entry.
> 
*** Revised 

> 
> * 2. Introduction
> 
> NIT:
> s/related with/related to/
> 
> * In what GMPLS WG document is the functionality of TED defined?
> 
> 4. Motivations
> 
> * Why is ISIS not mentioned here?

*** We added ISIS in chapter 4.

> 
> 6. Example of TED MIB module usage
> s/module usage/Module Usage/

*** Revised

> * Second paragraph "TE MIB"
> s/TE MIB/TED MIB/

*** Revised

> The second paragraph is confusing.  The Tables reflect information as 
> read only, yet, this paragraph discusses changing this information 
> locally (e.g. on a router) and then triggering routing to update this 
> information.
>

*** Revised

> The example given is confusing. What are the index values supposed to be?
> 
> 
> MIB MODULE
> -------------
> 
> * Please differentiate values as XXX or YYY for the rfc editor.
> 
> * as suggested by Appendix D of RFC4181 (Guidelines for MIB Documents) 
> the oid layout should be:
> 
>         xxxMIB
>         |
>         +-- xxxNotifications(0)
>         +-- xxxObjects(1)
>         +-- xxxConformance(2)
>             |
>             +-- xxxCompliances(1)
>             +-- xxxGroups(2)
> 
> 
> This OID layout is:
> - tedMIB
> \-v-0 tedNotifications
>   |-1 tedObjects
>   \-2 tedConformance
>     \-v-1 tedGroups
>       \-2 tedCompliances
> 
> Groups and Compliances should be reversed.

*** Revised
 

> * Additionally there are extraneous sub-ids of tedScalars and 
> tedTables under the tedObjects branch.
> While many older MIBs separated scalars and tables this way, this is 
> not needed and while fine for the MIB as it exists currently, if this 
> MIB is added to in the future (e.g. if an enterprise MIB developer 
> wants to add objects via his/her own enterprise MIB Module), then 
> keeping the separation of scalars
> and tables may be a hinderance.   I would ask that you remove
> these sub-ids (tedScalars and tedTables) so that the oidtree will look 
> like:
> 
>   |-1 tedObjects
>   |   \-1 tedNotificationEnabled, TruthValue[SNMPv2-TC], rw, current
>   |   \-2 tedNotificationMaxRate, Unsigned32, rw, current
>       \-3 tedTable
>     | \---1 tedEntry, INDEX{ teAreaId,teRouterId,teLinkStateId }
>     |     \-v-1 teAreaId, Unsigned32(1..4294967295), ro, current

*** Revised


> * tedNotificationEnabled
> 
> Why is this object needed?  Please answer the question wrt rfc3413.
> 
> * tedNotificationMaxRate
> 
> This one throttling mechanism is used to control 3 different
notifications.
> This might be okay, but that depends on the notifications and as they 
> are written now, they seem to be overlapping.  For example, if a TED 
> is created then are 2 notifications sent (one for StatusChange and one 
> for Creation) or just one (for Creation)?

*** If a TE information is created( or deleted) in a node, only one
notification (Creation trap or Deletion trap) is sent to client. On the
other hand, if TE information is changed, StatuChange is sent.


> * teLinkInformationData
> 
> The DESCRIPTION mentions the "teLinkTable of TE-LINK-STD-MIB", could 
> you please tell me what draft or rfc this is?

***This MIB has been defined by RFC4220. We had forgotten to describe the
reference of this MIB into reference section. We added it.

> What about OSPFv3 and other protocols that may be related to this MIB 
> (at some point?) Are you sure that this object is going to be useful 
> (even in the
> short-term?)

*** For the meantime, we think that this mib is available to support IPv6 as
well as IPV4 for supporting inet-address-mib.

 
> * Notifications
> 
> The descriptions are very unclear.  Under what circumstances are these 
> generated?  Please be specific.
> 
*** revised

> * Conformance statements are missing the restrictions for IpAddress 
> and IpAddressType objects in this MIB.
> Please correct this
> 
> * ReadOnly Compliance is incorrect.  There are 2 writable objects 
> which need to be given read-only conformance.
> 
*** Revised


> * 8. Security consideration
> 
> s/consideration/Considerations/
> 
> - The first paragraph states there aren't any read-write objects but 
> this is not accurate.  Please update.
>
*** Revised


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
-----Original Message-----
From: Joan Cucchiara [mailto:jcucchiara@mindspring.com] 
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 10:33 PM
To: Tomohiro Otani; ma-miyazawa@kddilabs.jp; tnadeau@bt.com;
ke-kumaki@kddilabs.jp
Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; Lou Berger;
ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: MIB Dr. review of draft-ietf-gmpls-ted-mib-5.txt

Hello,

Very interesting MIB!  A good deal of thought went into this.
Thanks for that!

First, the MIB compiler output will be given.  Followed by a
general discussion and then specific comments given which
are in order of the document.

Thanks,
  -Joan




MIB Compiler output:
=======================

smicngPRO
----------

* (NIT) Unable to abstract MIB Module using mstrip tool.

E: f(TED-MIB.my), (460,4) Index item "teLocalIntAddrIndex" must be defined 
with syntax that includes a range
E: f(TED-MIB.my), (518,49) Index item "teRemoteIntAddrIndex" must be defined

with syntax that includes a range
E: f(TED-MIB.my), (579,53) Index item "teSwCapIndex" must be defined with 
syntax that includes a range
E: f(TED-MIB.my), (765,53) Index item "teSrlgIndex" must be defined with 
syntax that includes a range
W: f(TED-MIB.my), (797,9) Variable "teAreaId" in notification 
"tedTeInfoStatusChange" is an index for a table
W: f(TED-MIB.my), (797,19) Variable "teRouterId" in notification 
"tedTeInfoStatusChange" is an index for a table
W: f(TED-MIB.my), (797,31) Variable "teLinkStateId" in notification 
"tedTeInfoStatusChange" is an index for a table
W: f(TED-MIB.my), (809,9) Variable "teAreaId" in notification 
"tedTeCreation" is an index for a table
W: f(TED-MIB.my), (809,19) Variable "teRouterId" in notification 
"tedTeCreation" is an index for a table
W: f(TED-MIB.my), (809,31) Variable "teLinkStateId" in notification 
"tedTeCreation" is an index for a table
W: f(TED-MIB.my), (819,9) Variable "teAreaId" in notification 
"tedTeDeletion" is an index for a table
W: f(TED-MIB.my), (819,19) Variable "teRouterId" in notification 
"tedTeDeletion" is an index for a table
W: f(TED-MIB.my), (819,31) Variable "teLinkStateId" in notification 
"tedTeDeletion" is an index for a table
W: f(TED-MIB.my), (926,7) NOTIFICATION-GROUP "tedNotificationGroup" is not 
used in a MODULE-COMPLIANCE in current module





smiLint
------------

Validation report
File: TED-MIB.my
Severity level requested: 6

Line  Severity  Problem
109 5 warning: index element `teAreaId' of row `tedEntry' should be 
not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB
        5 warning: index element `teRouterId' of row `tedEntry' should be 
not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB
        5 warning: index element `teLinkStateId' of row `tedEntry' should be

not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB
926 5 warning: current group `tedNotificationGroup' is not referenced in 
this module



General Discussion
------------------

* As an fyi, the OSPFv3 MIB (for IPv6) is "IESG Evaluation".

* In what GMPLS WG document is this functionality defined?

I see a lot of MIBs referenced in MPLS, OSPF, ISIS and GMPLS and
also a lot of documents being referenced, but not a specific TED one.


* The MIB objects themselves do not have any REFERENCE clauses and most of 
these
probably should given the nature of this MIB (i.e. that it is pulling from
so many different documents.)  Please be specific in your REFERENCE clauses
such as document, section, and sub-section, if appropriate.

* The names in this MIB are not prefixed consistently.
Please see Appendix C of RFC4181.

For example, TED-MIB is the MIB's name, and then
TedEntry, but the objects in this table are prefixed by "te" (but "ted" 
would
be more consistent.)

- The abbreviation for interface is "int" but would prefer either "if" or 
"intf".


* With the exception of 2 objects, the MIB consists of read-only objects.
While this is fine in and of itself, there are several places in the text 
that the
authors warn that if local configuration is done then routing needs to be
triggered so the new configuration gets dispersed.  When looking at these
MIB tables, is there any way to tell if the information is currently in use 
or not?



Specific Comments (in order of document)
------------------------------------------

* Table of Contents

s/Author's Address/Authors' Addresses/


* TOC is missing "Informative References" entry.



* 2. Introduction

NIT:
s/related with/related to/

* In what GMPLS WG document is the functionality of TED defined?

4. Motivations

* Why is ISIS not mentioned here?


6. Example of TED MIB module usage
s/module usage/Module Usage/

* Second paragraph "TE MIB"
s/TE MIB/TED MIB/

The second paragraph is confusing.  The Tables reflect information as
read only, yet, this paragraph discusses changing this information
locally (e.g. on a router) and then triggering routing to update
this information.

The example given is confusing. What are the index values supposed to be?


MIB MODULE
-------------

* Please differentiate values as XXX or YYY for the rfc editor.

* as suggested by Appendix D of RFC4181 (Guidelines for MIB Documents)
the oid layout should be:

         xxxMIB
         |
         +-- xxxNotifications(0)
         +-- xxxObjects(1)
         +-- xxxConformance(2)
             |
             +-- xxxCompliances(1)
             +-- xxxGroups(2)


This OID layout is:
- tedMIB
 \-v-0 tedNotifications
   |-1 tedObjects
   \-2 tedConformance
     \-v-1 tedGroups
       \-2 tedCompliances

Groups and Compliances should be reversed.


* Additionally there are extraneous sub-ids
of tedScalars and tedTables under the tedObjects branch.
While many older MIBs separated scalars and tables this way,
this is not needed and while fine for the MIB as it exists
currently, if this MIB is added to in the future (e.g. if an
enterprise MIB developer wants to add objects via his/her own
enterprise MIB Module), then keeping the separation of scalars
and tables may be a hinderance.   I would ask that you remove
these sub-ids (tedScalars and tedTables) so that the oidtree
will look like:

   |-1 tedObjects
   |   \-1 tedNotificationEnabled, TruthValue[SNMPv2-TC], rw, current
   |   \-2 tedNotificationMaxRate, Unsigned32, rw, current
       \-3 tedTable
     | \---1 tedEntry, INDEX{ teAreaId,teRouterId,teLinkStateId }
     |     \-v-1 teAreaId, Unsigned32(1..4294967295), ro, current

etc.


* tedNotificationEnabled

Why is this object needed?  Please answer the question wrt rfc3413.


* tedNotificationMaxRate

This one throttling mechanism is used to control 3 different notifications.
This might be okay, but that depends on the notifications and as they are
written now, they seem to be overlapping.  For example, if a TED is created
then are 2 notifications sent (one ofr StatusChange and one for Creation)
or just one (for Creation)?


* teLinkInformationData

The DESCRIPTION mentions the "teLinkTable of TE-LINK-STD-MIB", could you 
please
tell me what draft or rfc this is?

What about OSPFv3 and other protocols that may be related to this MIB (at 
some point?)
Are you sure that this object is going to be useful (even in the 
short-term?)




* Notifications

The descriptions are very unclear.  Under what circumstances are these
generated?  Please be specific.

* Conformance statements are missing the restrictions for
IpAddress and IpAddressType objects in this MIB.
Please correct this.


* ReadOnly Compliance is incorrect.  There are 2 writable objects
which need to be given read-only conformance.


* 8. Security consideration

s/consideration/Considerations/

- The first paragraph states there aren't any read-write objects but
this is not accurate.  Please update.







From lberger@labn.net  Fri Aug 28 10:57:04 2009
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Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 13:57:14 -0400
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4873 (1797)
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As discussed in Stockholm the resolution of this Errata is as follows:

1) The Errata should be Approved
2) That the following be added to Errata

  As reported in the Errata, the segment-recording-desired flag is
  unassigned.  The flag is unassigned and therefore cannot be used.
  As agreed to on the CCAMP mail list and the Stockholm (IETF 75)
  working group meeting the the collection of SRROs SHOULD be
  controlled based on the presence of an RRO in the message being
  processed.  That is, the segment-recording-desired flag should be
  considered to be set when an RRO is present in the message being
  processed.

I'll work with our AD to confirm that this makes it into the Erata system.

Lou

I'll coordinate with our AD to get the needed updates into the Errata.
On 6/23/2009 7:49 AM, Lou Berger wrote:
> As a co-author, I concur that this Errata is valid and should be
> verified.  As mentioned in the errata, the CCAMP WG will discuss this
> issue and may request that additional text be added to the errata.
> 
> Lou
> 
> On 6/23/2009 5:46 AM, RFC Errata System wrote:
>> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC4873,
>> "GMPLS Segment Recovery".
>>
>> --------------------------------------
>> You may review the report below and at:
>> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=4873&eid=1797
>>
>> --------------------------------------
>> Type: Technical
>> Reported by: David McWalter <dmcw@dataconnection.com>
>>
>> Section: 5.2
>>
>> Original Text
>> -------------
>> The collection of SRROs is controlled via the
>> segment-recording-desired flag in the SESSION_ATTRIBUTE object.  This
>> flag MAY be set even when SEROs are not used.
>>
>> Corrected Text
>> --------------
>> <New text to be decided by ccamp>
>>
>> Notes
>> -----
>> No request was made to IANA to assign a value for the segment-recording-desired flag.
>>
>> Possible solutions are under discussion on the ccamp list (22 June 2009)
>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ccamp/current/msg10205.html
>>
>> Instructions:
>> -------------
>> This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
>> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
>> rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG)
>> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. 
>>
>> --------------------------------------
>> RFC4873 (draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-segment-recovery-03)
>> --------------------------------------
>> Title               : GMPLS Segment Recovery
>> Publication Date    : May 2007
>> Author(s)           : L. Berger, I. Bryskin, D. Papadimitriou, A. Farrel
>> Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
>> Source              : Common Control and Measurement Plane
>> Area                : Routing
>> Stream              : IETF
>> Verifying Party     : IESG
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 
> 
> 

From jcucchiara@mindspring.com  Fri Aug 28 18:39:27 2009
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Cc: "'Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)'" <dromasca@avaya.com>, ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] MIB Dr. review of draft-ietf-gmpls-ted-mib-5.txt
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Hi Masanori,

Thank you for the quick turn around to this document.

Please see inline below.

Thanks,
  -Joan


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Masanori Miyazawa" <ma-miyazawa@kddilabs.jp>
To: "'Joan Cucchiara'" <jcucchiara@mindspring.com>; "'Tomohiro Otani'" 
<otani@kddilabs.jp>; <tnadeau@bt.com>; <ke-kumaki@kddilabs.jp>
Cc: "'Romascanu, Dan (Dan)'" <dromasca@avaya.com>; "'Brungard, Deborah A, 
ALABS'" <dbrungard@att.com>; "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>; 
<ccamp@ietf.org>
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 6:40 AM
Subject: RE: MIB Dr. review of draft-ietf-gmpls-ted-mib-5.txt


> Hi Joan,
>
> Thank you for your comments.
> We had finished update and modification according to your comments.
>
> Please see our answer to your comments as below and let us know if you 
> have
> any question.
>
> Regards,
> Masanori
>
>> MIB Compiler output:
>> =======================
>>
>> E: f(TED-MIB.my), (460,4) Index item "teLocalIntAddrIndex" must be
>> defined with syntax that includes a range
>> E: f(TED-MIB.my), (518,49) Index item "teRemoteIntAddrIndex" must be
>> defined with syntax that includes a range
>> E: f(TED-MIB.my), (579,53) Index item "teSwCapIndex" must be defined
>> with syntax that includes a range
>> E: f(TED-MIB.my), (765,53) Index item "teSrlgIndex" must be defined
>> with syntax that includes a range
>
> *** We modified "SYNTAX" of index to "Unsigned32 (1..4294967295)".
>
>> Line  Severity  Problem
>> 109 5 warning: index element `teAreaId' of row `tedEntry' should be
>> not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB
>>        5 warning: index element `teRouterId' of row `tedEntry' should
>> be not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB
>>        5 warning: index element `teLinkStateId' of row `tedEntry'
>> should be not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB
>> 926 5 warning: current group `tedNotificationGroup' is not referenced
>> in this module
>
> ***Using smiLint, we got 4 errors, however these index objects are needed 
> to
> set MAX-ACCESS to "read-only" because these objects are used for value of
> notification.
>
>> General Discussion
>> ------------------
>
>> * In what GMPLS WG document is this functionality defined?
>
> ***This functionality of traffic engineering database (TED) is defined in
> RFC3630 (Traffic Engineering (TE) Extensions to OSPF Version 2). And also,
> supporting IS-IS and GMPLS technologies as well as OSPF, this MIB is 
> defined
> in RFC4203(OSPF Extensions in Support of Generalized Multi-Protocol Label
> Switching), RFC3784(IS-IS extensions for Traffic Engineering) and RFC4205
> (Intermediate System to Intermediate System (IS-IS) Extensions in Support 
> of
> Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS).
>

This MIB has gone through a WG Last Call, so was this MIB reviewed by
these different working groups also?

>
>> * The names in this MIB are not prefixed consistently.
>> Please see Appendix C of RFC4181.
>>
>> For example, TED-MIB is the MIB's name, and then TedEntry, but the
>> objects in this table are prefixed by "te" (but "ted"
>> would
>> be more consistent.)
>>
>
> ***The name of objects in Ted Table was changed from "te" to "ted". And
> also, for ensuring consistency, we also changed the table name as well as
> object name in teLocalIfAddrTable and teRemoteIfAddrTable,teSwCapTable and
> teSrlgTable.
>
> "teLocalIfAddrTable" ->  "tedLocalIfAddrTable"
> "teRemoteIfAddrTable" -> "tedRemoteIfAddrTable"
> "teSwCapTable" ->  "tedSwCapTable"
> "teSrlgTable" -> "tedSrlgTable"
>
>
>> The abbreviation for interface is "int" but would prefer either "if"
>> or "intf".
>
> *** We modified the abbreviation for interface from "int" to "if".
>
>
>> * With the exception of 2 objects, the MIB consists of read-only objects.
>> While this is fine in and of itself, there are several places in the
>> text that the authors warn that if local configuration is done then
>> routing needs to be triggered so the new configuration gets dispersed.
>> When looking at these MIB tables, is there any way to tell if the
>> information is currently in use or not?
>>
> *** In this mib, when information is not in use or not configured, there 
> is
> no reply from SNMP agent, conversely, when information is in use, there is
> reply.
>


 From the perspective of an SNMP Manager, when an SNMP Agent doesn't respond
this could mean that the network failed, or that the router that received 
the request was too
busy so dropped the SNMP request, etc.   The SNMP Manager makes the 
assumption
that the agent never saw the request, and so usually re-issues the request. 
The SNMP
Manager is not able to deduce information about the MIB data.

So some thought needs to be given as to how to indicate the "state" of the 
data.
Could one (or more) object(s) be designed to indicate what the state of the 
data is?

Thanks,
  -Joan

>
>> Specific Comments (in order of document)
>> ------------------------------------------
>>
>> * Table of Contents
>>
>> s/Author's Address/Authors' Addresses/
>
> *** Revised
>
>>
>> * TOC is missing "Informative References" entry.
>>
> *** Revised
>
>>
>> * 2. Introduction
>>
>> NIT:
>> s/related with/related to/
>>
>> * In what GMPLS WG document is the functionality of TED defined?
>>
>> 4. Motivations
>>
>> * Why is ISIS not mentioned here?
>
> *** We added ISIS in chapter 4.
>
>>
>> 6. Example of TED MIB module usage
>> s/module usage/Module Usage/
>
> *** Revised
>
>> * Second paragraph "TE MIB"
>> s/TE MIB/TED MIB/
>
> *** Revised
>
>> The second paragraph is confusing.  The Tables reflect information as
>> read only, yet, this paragraph discusses changing this information
>> locally (e.g. on a router) and then triggering routing to update this
>> information.
>>
>
> *** Revised
>
>> The example given is confusing. What are the index values supposed to be?
>>
>>
>> MIB MODULE
>> -------------
>>
>> * Please differentiate values as XXX or YYY for the rfc editor.
>>
>> * as suggested by Appendix D of RFC4181 (Guidelines for MIB Documents)
>> the oid layout should be:
>>
>>         xxxMIB
>>         |
>>         +-- xxxNotifications(0)
>>         +-- xxxObjects(1)
>>         +-- xxxConformance(2)
>>             |
>>             +-- xxxCompliances(1)
>>             +-- xxxGroups(2)
>>
>>
>> This OID layout is:
>> - tedMIB
>> \-v-0 tedNotifications
>>   |-1 tedObjects
>>   \-2 tedConformance
>>     \-v-1 tedGroups
>>       \-2 tedCompliances
>>
>> Groups and Compliances should be reversed.
>
> *** Revised
>
>
>> * Additionally there are extraneous sub-ids of tedScalars and
>> tedTables under the tedObjects branch.
>> While many older MIBs separated scalars and tables this way, this is
>> not needed and while fine for the MIB as it exists currently, if this
>> MIB is added to in the future (e.g. if an enterprise MIB developer
>> wants to add objects via his/her own enterprise MIB Module), then
>> keeping the separation of scalars
>> and tables may be a hinderance.   I would ask that you remove
>> these sub-ids (tedScalars and tedTables) so that the oidtree will look
>> like:
>>
>>   |-1 tedObjects
>>   |   \-1 tedNotificationEnabled, TruthValue[SNMPv2-TC], rw, current
>>   |   \-2 tedNotificationMaxRate, Unsigned32, rw, current
>>       \-3 tedTable
>>     | \---1 tedEntry, INDEX{ teAreaId,teRouterId,teLinkStateId }
>>     |     \-v-1 teAreaId, Unsigned32(1..4294967295), ro, current
>
> *** Revised
>
>
>> * tedNotificationEnabled
>>
>> Why is this object needed?  Please answer the question wrt rfc3413.
>>
>> * tedNotificationMaxRate
>>
>> This one throttling mechanism is used to control 3 different
> notifications.
>> This might be okay, but that depends on the notifications and as they
>> are written now, they seem to be overlapping.  For example, if a TED
>> is created then are 2 notifications sent (one for StatusChange and one
>> for Creation) or just one (for Creation)?
>
> *** If a TE information is created( or deleted) in a node, only one
> notification (Creation trap or Deletion trap) is sent to client. On the
> other hand, if TE information is changed, StatuChange is sent.
>
>
>> * teLinkInformationData
>>
>> The DESCRIPTION mentions the "teLinkTable of TE-LINK-STD-MIB", could
>> you please tell me what draft or rfc this is?
>
> ***This MIB has been defined by RFC4220. We had forgotten to describe the
> reference of this MIB into reference section. We added it.
>
>> What about OSPFv3 and other protocols that may be related to this MIB
>> (at some point?) Are you sure that this object is going to be useful
>> (even in the
>> short-term?)
>
> *** For the meantime, we think that this mib is available to support IPv6 
> as
> well as IPV4 for supporting inet-address-mib.
>
>
>> * Notifications
>>
>> The descriptions are very unclear.  Under what circumstances are these
>> generated?  Please be specific.
>>
> *** revised
>
>> * Conformance statements are missing the restrictions for IpAddress
>> and IpAddressType objects in this MIB.
>> Please correct this
>>
>> * ReadOnly Compliance is incorrect.  There are 2 writable objects
>> which need to be given read-only conformance.
>>
> *** Revised
>
>
>> * 8. Security consideration
>>
>> s/consideration/Considerations/
>>
>> - The first paragraph states there aren't any read-write objects but
>> this is not accurate.  Please update.
>>
> *** Revised
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joan Cucchiara [mailto:jcucchiara@mindspring.com]
> Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 10:33 PM
> To: Tomohiro Otani; ma-miyazawa@kddilabs.jp; tnadeau@bt.com;
> ke-kumaki@kddilabs.jp
> Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS; Lou Berger;
> ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: MIB Dr. review of draft-ietf-gmpls-ted-mib-5.txt
>
> Hello,
>
> Very interesting MIB!  A good deal of thought went into this.
> Thanks for that!
>
> First, the MIB compiler output will be given.  Followed by a
> general discussion and then specific comments given which
> are in order of the document.
>
> Thanks,
>  -Joan
>
>
>
>
> MIB Compiler output:
> =======================
>
> smicngPRO
> ----------
>
> * (NIT) Unable to abstract MIB Module using mstrip tool.
>
> E: f(TED-MIB.my), (460,4) Index item "teLocalIntAddrIndex" must be defined
> with syntax that includes a range
> E: f(TED-MIB.my), (518,49) Index item "teRemoteIntAddrIndex" must be 
> defined
>
> with syntax that includes a range
> E: f(TED-MIB.my), (579,53) Index item "teSwCapIndex" must be defined with
> syntax that includes a range
> E: f(TED-MIB.my), (765,53) Index item "teSrlgIndex" must be defined with
> syntax that includes a range
> W: f(TED-MIB.my), (797,9) Variable "teAreaId" in notification
> "tedTeInfoStatusChange" is an index for a table
> W: f(TED-MIB.my), (797,19) Variable "teRouterId" in notification
> "tedTeInfoStatusChange" is an index for a table
> W: f(TED-MIB.my), (797,31) Variable "teLinkStateId" in notification
> "tedTeInfoStatusChange" is an index for a table
> W: f(TED-MIB.my), (809,9) Variable "teAreaId" in notification
> "tedTeCreation" is an index for a table
> W: f(TED-MIB.my), (809,19) Variable "teRouterId" in notification
> "tedTeCreation" is an index for a table
> W: f(TED-MIB.my), (809,31) Variable "teLinkStateId" in notification
> "tedTeCreation" is an index for a table
> W: f(TED-MIB.my), (819,9) Variable "teAreaId" in notification
> "tedTeDeletion" is an index for a table
> W: f(TED-MIB.my), (819,19) Variable "teRouterId" in notification
> "tedTeDeletion" is an index for a table
> W: f(TED-MIB.my), (819,31) Variable "teLinkStateId" in notification
> "tedTeDeletion" is an index for a table
> W: f(TED-MIB.my), (926,7) NOTIFICATION-GROUP "tedNotificationGroup" is not
> used in a MODULE-COMPLIANCE in current module
>
>
>
>
>
> smiLint
> ------------
>
> Validation report
> File: TED-MIB.my
> Severity level requested: 6
>
> Line  Severity  Problem
> 109 5 warning: index element `teAreaId' of row `tedEntry' should be
> not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB
>        5 warning: index element `teRouterId' of row `tedEntry' should be
> not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB
>        5 warning: index element `teLinkStateId' of row `tedEntry' should 
> be
>
> not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB
> 926 5 warning: current group `tedNotificationGroup' is not referenced in
> this module
>
>
>
> General Discussion
> ------------------
>
> * As an fyi, the OSPFv3 MIB (for IPv6) is "IESG Evaluation".
>
> * In what GMPLS WG document is this functionality defined?
>
> I see a lot of MIBs referenced in MPLS, OSPF, ISIS and GMPLS and
> also a lot of documents being referenced, but not a specific TED one.
>
>
> * The MIB objects themselves do not have any REFERENCE clauses and most of
> these
> probably should given the nature of this MIB (i.e. that it is pulling from
> so many different documents.)  Please be specific in your REFERENCE 
> clauses
> such as document, section, and sub-section, if appropriate.
>
> * The names in this MIB are not prefixed consistently.
> Please see Appendix C of RFC4181.
>
> For example, TED-MIB is the MIB's name, and then
> TedEntry, but the objects in this table are prefixed by "te" (but "ted"
> would
> be more consistent.)
>
> - The abbreviation for interface is "int" but would prefer either "if" or
> "intf".
>
>
> * With the exception of 2 objects, the MIB consists of read-only objects.
> While this is fine in and of itself, there are several places in the text
> that the
> authors warn that if local configuration is done then routing needs to be
> triggered so the new configuration gets dispersed.  When looking at these
> MIB tables, is there any way to tell if the information is currently in 
> use
> or not?
>
>
>
> Specific Comments (in order of document)
> ------------------------------------------
>
> * Table of Contents
>
> s/Author's Address/Authors' Addresses/
>
>
> * TOC is missing "Informative References" entry.
>
>
>
> * 2. Introduction
>
> NIT:
> s/related with/related to/
>
> * In what GMPLS WG document is the functionality of TED defined?
>
> 4. Motivations
>
> * Why is ISIS not mentioned here?
>
>
> 6. Example of TED MIB module usage
> s/module usage/Module Usage/
>
> * Second paragraph "TE MIB"
> s/TE MIB/TED MIB/
>
> The second paragraph is confusing.  The Tables reflect information as
> read only, yet, this paragraph discusses changing this information
> locally (e.g. on a router) and then triggering routing to update
> this information.
>
> The example given is confusing. What are the index values supposed to be?
>
>
> MIB MODULE
> -------------
>
> * Please differentiate values as XXX or YYY for the rfc editor.
>
> * as suggested by Appendix D of RFC4181 (Guidelines for MIB Documents)
> the oid layout should be:
>
>         xxxMIB
>         |
>         +-- xxxNotifications(0)
>         +-- xxxObjects(1)
>         +-- xxxConformance(2)
>             |
>             +-- xxxCompliances(1)
>             +-- xxxGroups(2)
>
>
> This OID layout is:
> - tedMIB
> \-v-0 tedNotifications
>   |-1 tedObjects
>   \-2 tedConformance
>     \-v-1 tedGroups
>       \-2 tedCompliances
>
> Groups and Compliances should be reversed.
>
>
> * Additionally there are extraneous sub-ids
> of tedScalars and tedTables under the tedObjects branch.
> While many older MIBs separated scalars and tables this way,
> this is not needed and while fine for the MIB as it exists
> currently, if this MIB is added to in the future (e.g. if an
> enterprise MIB developer wants to add objects via his/her own
> enterprise MIB Module), then keeping the separation of scalars
> and tables may be a hinderance.   I would ask that you remove
> these sub-ids (tedScalars and tedTables) so that the oidtree
> will look like:
>
>   |-1 tedObjects
>   |   \-1 tedNotificationEnabled, TruthValue[SNMPv2-TC], rw, current
>   |   \-2 tedNotificationMaxRate, Unsigned32, rw, current
>       \-3 tedTable
>     | \---1 tedEntry, INDEX{ teAreaId,teRouterId,teLinkStateId }
>     |     \-v-1 teAreaId, Unsigned32(1..4294967295), ro, current
>
> etc.
>
>
> * tedNotificationEnabled
>
> Why is this object needed?  Please answer the question wrt rfc3413.
>
>
> * tedNotificationMaxRate
>
> This one throttling mechanism is used to control 3 different 
> notifications.
> This might be okay, but that depends on the notifications and as they are
> written now, they seem to be overlapping.  For example, if a TED is 
> created
> then are 2 notifications sent (one ofr StatusChange and one for Creation)
> or just one (for Creation)?
>
>
> * teLinkInformationData
>
> The DESCRIPTION mentions the "teLinkTable of TE-LINK-STD-MIB", could you
> please
> tell me what draft or rfc this is?
>
> What about OSPFv3 and other protocols that may be related to this MIB (at
> some point?)
> Are you sure that this object is going to be useful (even in the
> short-term?)
>
>
>
>
> * Notifications
>
> The descriptions are very unclear.  Under what circumstances are these
> generated?  Please be specific.
>
> * Conformance statements are missing the restrictions for
> IpAddress and IpAddressType objects in this MIB.
> Please correct this.
>
>
> * ReadOnly Compliance is incorrect.  There are 2 writable objects
> which need to be given read-only conformance.
>
>
> * 8. Security consideration
>
> s/consideration/Considerations/
>
> - The first paragraph states there aren't any read-write objects but
> this is not accurate.  Please update.
>
>
>
>
>
> 


From wwwrun@core3.amsl.com  Sun Aug 30 13:22:20 2009
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Cc: CCAMP Working Group <ccamp@ietf.org>, Stephen Trowbridge <sjtrowbridge@alcatel-lucent.com>, Patrik Fältström <paf@cisco.com>, Adrian Farrel <adrian.farrel@huawei.com>, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
Subject: [CCAMP] New Liaison Statement, "ASON Routing in the IETF"
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Title: ASON Routing in the IETF
Submission Date: 2009-08-30
URL of the IETF Web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=566 

From: Adrian Farrel(IETF Routing Area) <adrian.farrel@huawei.com>
To: ITU-T SG15 Q14(Greg Jones <greg.jones@itu.int>)
Cc: Kam Lam <hklam@alcatel-lucent.com>
Stephen Trowbridge <sjtrowbridge@alcatel-lucent.com>
Patrik Fï¿½ltstrï¿½m <paf@cisco.com>
Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com>
Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
CCAMP Working Group <ccamp@ietf.org>
Reponse Contact: Adrian Farrel <adrian.farrel@huawei.com>
Technical Contact: Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com>
Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Purpose: For information 
Body: Dear Mr. Lam,

May I take this opportunity to inform you and Question 14 of Study Group 15 of the progress of work within the IETF on ASON routing.

_Requirements and Analysis_

As you are aware, the IETF has published two Request For Comment documents (RFCs) documenting the requirements for GMPLS routing for ASONs, and an evaluation of existing routing protocols against the ASON routing requirements. These are:

- RFC 4258 "Requirements for Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Routing for 
  Automatically Switched Optical Network (ASON),"

- RFC 4652 "Evaluation of existing Routing Protocols against ASON Routing 
  Requirements"

They are available for free download from http://www.ietf.org/rfc.html

_Inclusion of Additional Requirements_

After repeated approaches from Study Group 15 saying that certain key routing requirements had been left out of RFC 4258 and that other requirements had been misrepresented, the IETF held an ad hoc face-to-face meeting during the 71st IETF in Philadelphia during the week of 10th March 2008. We discussed the content of the liaison and focussed in on the major points raised. We were helped in our analysis by experts from Q14/15 who traveled to form part of the group.

The conclusion of the meeting was that it might be beneficial to revise RFC 4258 to be sure that it covers all of the requirements in the latest versions of the ITU-T Recommendations. To achieve this work, a design team was set up using three volunteers who were active in Study Group 15 and the Optical Interworking Forum and who were familiar with the content of G.7715 and G.7715.1. The team was chartered, and a mailing list was set up to allow open discussion of the issues.

Unfortunately, the design team has been unable to deliver on its charter. A first version of a draft was posted in October 2008, but no further progress has been made.

You are informed, therefore, that it is our intention to close this design team and shut the mailing list.

The IETF welcomes further input on this topic which should be made in the form of Internet-Drafts with discussion on the mailing list of the CCAMP working group (https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp)

_Protocol Extensions to OSPF_

The IETF's CCAMP working group produced initial work on protocol extensions to the OSPF routing protocol in support of ASON routing requirements. In order to facilitate the free work of the design team described above, CCAMP's work on OSPF was put on hold until the design team delivered on its charter.

In the light of the failure of the lack of progress revising RFC 4258, it is not reasonable to hold up the work on OSPF any further. Consequently, an Internet-Draft ("OSPFv2 Routing Protocols Extensions for ASON Routing") has been advanced and approved by the IESG. This will be processed for publication as an RFC. Until the RFC Editor completes his tasks, the text of this work can be downloaded from:

http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ason-routing-ospf-09.txt

The RFC will be published on the Experimental track. The IETF considers that significant modifications to Internet routing protocols need to be treated with great caution, and that the ASON routing extensions need to be the subject of experimentation in "walled gardens" in order to determine the stability of the protocol extensions before they are released for general use in the Internet.

The IETF would welcome all reports of implementation, interoperability, and deployment experience of these protocol extensions. All comments should be sent to the CCAMP working group mailing list.

Best Regards,
Adrian Farrel
IETF Routing Area Director
Liaison to SG15 on the Optical Control Plane
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From: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>
To: "'Weiqiang Sun'" <sunwq@MIT.EDU>, "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>, "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [ippm]   [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
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Hi Weiqiang,

thanks for commenting.
My responses inline as usual;


Brgds.
Reinhard Schrage
Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
reinhard@schrageconsult.com

-----Original Message-----
From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Weiqiang Sun
Sent: Donnerstag, 27. August 2009 08:26
To: Rschrage; 'Lou Berger'; 'Henk Uijterwaal'
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org; zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; 'IETF IPPM WG'
Subject: Re: [ippm] [CCAMP] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]

Hi Reinhard,

Thanks for responding. Please see inline.

>
> Thanks for sending this part. See below for my responses.
>
> [RS7]
> Is there any help or suggestion on how to actually compute a usable
> Lambda_m?
> [sunwq]
> No. Depending on the performance of the implementation, the lambda_m can 
> be
> very different, even under the same topology. A proper value of Lambda_m 
> can
> only be tuned in the testing.
>
> [RS7a]
> I am a bit at loss here.
>
> It was my understanding that you use a metric to measure certain network
> quantities, e.g. throughput, set up delays, etc.
> In a second step you'd use these measured metrics to determine whether the
> systems under test meet your previously expected or defined quality
> parameters. If not, you'd make changes to the components or network 
> design,
> measure again, and compare the previous set of data to the one after the
> change and see whether you have improved and are moving into the right
> direction.
>
> You seem to be coming from the other end, i.e. tweak the input parameters 
> to
> suit your system under test.
[sunwq]
OK, I get your point here.
What you said is true. I had thought by saying ``a usable lambda_m", you are

saying that a lambda_m that is *best achievable* by the DUT/SUT.
If you are expecting certain performance from the DUT/SUT, then very likely 
you will have in mind an "expected" lambda_m, won't you?
The methodology here does not suggest how to select lambda_m. This in fact 
can provide flexibility. Either the test will use an expected lambda_m, or 
tune the lambda_m that reflects the best system performance, depending on 
the purpose of the test. Does this make sense?

[RS]
OK - under the assumption of an experienced user.

>
> [RS8]
> How to compare metrics that have been generated by two different Poisson
> processes, i.e. e.g. two different arrival rates?
> [sunwq]
> No way. Do we need to do that anyway?
>
> [RS8a]
> Pls also see my comments above.
> If you cannot compare two sets of measurements how will you then arrive at
> an objective study of the network components under test?
[sunwq]
Maybe I misunderstood you again here. The Poisson arrival rate is an 
approximation of real traffic load. Of course it is worthwhile to find out 
how DUT/SUT performs when traffic load changes. But what else do you expect 
by comparing two data sets from different traffic load? Did I miss something

here?

[RS]
I was thinking along the lines of say starting with a reasonably large
lambda_m, get the metric sample for that and then subsequently e.g.
shortening lambda_m, comparing the resulting metric tuples. I was looking
for a guideline on how to possibly compare these resulting tuples.
As this is a stochastic process even shorter lambda_m values can still
generate longer interarrival times (surely with lower probability but still
possible). Makes sense?
>
>
> [RS9]
> These sample tuples are dependent on the arrival rate Lambda_m. How to
> deduct this input parameter from a resulting sample?
> For instance, if two result sample sets are given, how can we be sure that
> they can be compared?
> [sunwq]
> My understanding of the sample is that it is a sequence of singleton 
> values
> obtained under a set of parameters. The parameters, such as Lambda_m, are
> not visible in the sample. However, when reporting the sample, the
> parameters must also be reported.
>
> [RS9a]
> OK. Noted and understood.
[sunwq]
Great, thanks.

>
>
> [RS10]
> A superposition of two different Poisson processes is being used here.
> How do you map the resulting RESV messages to the correct process, i.e. 
> how
> to differentiate e.g. a late RESV message resulting from third PATH 
> message
> in fourth invocation from an early RESV message solicited by first PATH
> message in fourth invocation?
> [sunwq]
> RESV messages can be differentiated by either MSG ID or non-overlapping 
> LSP
> ID, or combined. The RSVP-TE protocol does that automatically. So I 
> believe
> this is an RSVP-TE implementation issue, rather than a testing methodology
> issue.
>
> [RS10a]
> OK. Noted and understood.
[sunwq]
Great, thanks.

>
> [RS11]
> ????
> [sunwq]
> Well, the full text is like: "The percentile of Metric is defined as: 
> given
> a metric and a percent X between 0% and 100%, the Xth percentile of all 
> the
> dT values in the sample." Would it help a bit if sentence is replaced by 
> the
>
> full text above?
> Please be noted that this text is inherited from the IPPM docs (See RFC
> 2681, page 16, 4.1).
>
> [RS11a]
> The way it was written in the doc it was just a fragment of a sentence.
> Unfortunately RFC 2681, page 16, 4.1. also does not give a proper
> definition, as it too is just a fragmented sentence.
> RFC 2330, p.26, 11.3 gives a better explanation, as:
> "We will use the term 'percentile' to refer to the smallest value of x for
> which the empirical distribution function is greater or equal a given
> percentage"
[sunwq]
Well, to tell the truth I was troubled by this too. Later I realized that 
one reason that might lead to such a definition is that the authors of 2681 
had assumed that ``percentile" is a ``well known" term, and does not 
inheriting its definition from RFC 2330. And quite surprisingly wikipedia 
says "there is no standard definition of percentile." But wikipedia also 
says ``however all definitions yield similar results when the number of 
observations is large."

I will replace the original example with the following to avoid such a 
dilemma (of conflicting calculations in two RFCs).
============original text===============
   Example: suppose we take a sample and the results are: Stream1 = <
   <T1, 100 msec>, <T2, 110 msec>, <T3, undefined>, <T4, 90 msec>, <T5,
   500 msec> >

   Then the 50th percentile would be 110 msec, since 90 msec and 100
   msec are smaller, and 110 and 500 msec are larger (undefined values
   are not counted in).
============end of original text========

============new text===============
   Example: suppose we take a sample and the results are: Stream1 = <
   <T1, 100 msec>, <T2, 110 msec>, <T3, undefined>, <T4, 90 msec>, <T5,
   500 msec>, <T6, 350msec> >

   Then the 60th percentile would be 110 msec, since 90 msec and 100
   msec are smaller, and 110, 350 and 500 msec are larger (undefined values
   are not counted in).

   A more detailed definition of percentile may be found in RFC 2330.
============end of new text========


> [RS12]
> As stipulated in RFC2330 the EDF is defined as a function F(x) which for 
> any
>
> x gives the fractional proportion of the total measurements that were <= 
> x.
> (see RFC2330 11.3 p26)
> Hence F(90)=0.25, F(100)=0.5,F(110)=0.75, F(500)=1 and therefore the 50th
> percentile is defined as 100 as opposed to 110.
> [sunwq]
> Yes you are right with regard to RFC 2330. But we have used exactly the 
> same
>
> example as in RFC 2681 (page 16, section 4.1). The good thing is that the
> difference of the two calculations is very small when the number of
> measurement is large. Change needed?
>
> [RS12a]
> As outlined above RFC 2330 as opposed to RFC2681 gives a proper definition
> of percentile. Therefore we should stick to RFC2330 and change 
> accordingly.
>
> It should be noted though, that also RFC2330 defines percentile 
> differently
> than it is done in the statistical literature, but we can live with this, 
> as
> it makes the definition easier to apply to measurement samples.
Good point, thanks for explaining. I hope the change above is satisfactory 
for you.

[RS]
OK then.

Thanks and best regards,
Weiqiang

>
> [------------------End of new comments---------------------]
>
>
> And I realized that the points you have raised covered the main part of 
> the
> text. We would expect your further comments regarding our responses.
> Otherwise we will assume that you are happy with it and will proceed to
> change the text based on the revision you sent in your previous email :)
>
> Thank you again for your time in reviewing the draft so carefully.
>
> Best regards,
> Weiqiang
>
> --
> Weiqiang Sun
> Shanghai Jiao Tong University
> http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 9:57 PM
> To: "'Weiqiang Sun'" <sunwq@MIT.EDU>; "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>;
> "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
> Cc: <ccamp@ietf.org>; <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'IETF IPPM WG'"
> <ippm@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> pls find attached a further updated edition of previous revised doc
>> draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06.
>>
>> I believe this is as far as we can go for the moment before a mutual
>> satisfactory understanding has been reached and a new draft has been
>> issued
>> by the authors.
>>
>> Again, pls feel free to comment.
>>
>> Many thanks.
>> Brgds.
>> Reinhard Schrage
>> Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
>> Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
>> reinhard@schrageconsult.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> Weiqiang Sun
>> Sent: Mittwoch, 19. August 2009 09:28
>> To: Rschrage; 'Lou Berger'; 'Henk Uijterwaal'
>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org; zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; 'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A,
>> ATTLABS'; 'IETF IPPM WG'
>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>
>> More responses below:
>>
>> RS4.
>> Should be more specific as to why this metric is no simple function of
>> single uni-directional LSP Setup Delay metric, i.e. why can it not be
>> deduced from single LSP Setup Delay?
>> [sunwq]
>> This point is raised regarding the sentence "The time needed to setup a
>> large number of LSPs during a short time period can not be deduced by
>> single
>>
>> LSP setup delay."
>> One reason is that when a large number of LSPs in being setup during a
>> short
>>
>> period of time, the control plane may be crowded or even overwhelmed by
>> the
>> large number of signaling and routing messages. This may significantly
>> slow
>> down the processing of a particular signaling message, which will results
>> in
>>
>> longer LSP provisioning delays.
>> Are you suggesting that we add similar explanations to the document? We'd
>> love to do that if you feel it is necessary.
>>
>> RS5.
>> The current definition only addresses multiple uni-directional LSP setups
>> between two nodes ID0 and ID1. What about the the case when ID0 is to
>> setup
>> multiple uni-directional LSP setups to different egress nodes ID1, ID2,
>> ID3,.,IDN?
>> [sunwq]
>> Yes, it is a useful case. Likewise you would expect a case to establish a
>> varied number of (instead of one) LSPs to a set of destinations. Our
>> suggestion is that this case is approached by integrating the defined
>> methodologies of single/multiple LSPs provisioning delay, in the form of 
>> a
>> particular testing case, rather than a formal testing methodology. This 
>> is
>> in fact a trade-off between complexity and accuracy.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Weiqiang
>>
>> --
>> Weiqiang Sun
>> Shanghai Jiao Tong University
>> http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Weiqiang Sun" <sunwq@mit.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:48 PM
>> To: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>; "'Lou Berger'"
>> <lberger@labn.net>; "'Henk Uijterwaal'" <henk@ripe.net>
>> Cc: <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS'"
>> <dbrungard@att.com>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" <ippm@ietf.org>; <ccamp@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>
>>> Hi Reinhard,
>>>
>>> Many thanks for doing the careful review. We appreciate your many 
>>> wording
>>> suggestions. We will go through these one by one and adopt those we feel
>>> appropriate. In this email I will not list all the comments since these
>>> will not lead to major technical changes.
>>>
>>> Below I try to respond to the points you raised in the revision.
>>>
>>> RS1.
>>> This would imply that the metric may produce a range of several values 
>>> at
>>> one time with the minimum value to be taken from that range.
>>> I believe what the authors are trying to say is, that the LSP Setup 
>>> Delay
>>> Metric provides a lower bound on all possible LSP Delay Metrics of
>>> actually instantiated LSPs, or in other words: an actual LSP Delay 
>>> Metric
>>> cannot get smaller than an LSP Setup Delay Metric.
>>> [sunwq]
>>> This point is raised regarding the motivation of the sigleton definition
>>> of Single Uni-directional LSP Setup Delay (ie. 4.1, para 2). We are
>>> trying
>>
>>> to say that the minimum value of this metric reflects the (likely) 
>>> single
>>> lsp setup delay when the control plane is lightly loaded. The formal
>>> definition of the minimum value is in "14.1 The minimum of metric"
>>> In fact we have inherited this from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681,
>>> page
>>
>>> 2 section 1.1 bullet 3).
>>>
>>> RS2.
>>> How? Should there be a methodology be defined for this?
>>> [sunwq]
>>> This point is raised regarding the sentense in our methodologies
>>> sections - "Make sure that the network has enough resource to set up the
>>> requested LSP."
>>> We have assumed that test personnel should have adequate expertise in
>>> allocating enough resources for the testing. The allocation of resources
>>> for the testing purpose can be very test specific and we believe it is
>>> quite outside the scope of this document.
>>>
>>> RS3.
>>> Too vague? As both timestamps are to be taken on the same ingress node,
>>> they should be taken at the same application/network level.
>>> [sunwq]
>>> This point is raised regarding the sentense "If the corresponding RESV
>>> message arrives within a reasonable period of time, take the timestamp
>>> (T2) as soon as possible upon receipt of the message."
>>> Yes, ideally the timestamp should be taken immediately after the
>>> reception
>>
>>> of the RESV message. The wording "as soon as possible" is used to allow
>>> for some flexibility when RESV message needs to be propagated to certain
>>> modules where timestamp-taking is most appropriate.
>>> And again, this text is inherited from the IPPM documents (see RFC 2681
>>> page 7, bullet 3).
>>>
>>> Thanks again and looking forward to your further comments and revisions.
>>>
>>> Weiqiang
>>>
>>> --
>>> Weiqiang Sun
>>> Shanghai Jiao Tong University
>>> http://front.sjtu.edu.cn/~sunwq/
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Rschrage" <rschrage@schrageconsult.net>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 8:23 PM
>>> To: "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>; "'Henk Uijterwaal'"
>>> <henk@ripe.net>
>>> Cc: <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>; "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS'"
>>> <dbrungard@att.com>; <sunwq@mit.edu>; "'IETF IPPM WG'" <ippm@ietf.org>;
>>> <ccamp@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: RE: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> sorry for late response-
>>>>
>>>> Nevertheless here is a first edition of my revision of doc
>>>> draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06.
>>>>
>>>> The doc has been saved in Word 2003 format to easily track changes.
>>>> I am using Kaspersky Anti Virus 2010 software so I trust there should 
>>>> be
>>>> no
>>>> unpleasant surprises when downloading the attached word doc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I thought it would be advisable to first address the suggested comments
>>>> and
>>>> questions upto and including the uni-directional LSP setup delay metric
>>>> and
>>>> after that to continue with the bi-directional and sample definitions 
>>>> as
>>>> covered in the doc.
>>>>
>>>> Please let me have your thoughts on this.
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks.
>>>> Reinhard Schrage
>>>> Tel: +49 (0) 5137 909540
>>>> Mobile: +49 (0) 172 26.36.046
>>>> reinhard@schrageconsult.com
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> Lou
>>>> Berger
>>>> Sent: Dienstag, 28. Juli 2009 14:59
>>>> To: Henk Uijterwaal
>>>> Cc: zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS;
>>>> sunwq@mit.edu; IETF IPPM WG
>>>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
>>>>
>>>> Hank/Reinhard,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you very much for undertaking this review.  Please cc
>>>> ccamp@ietf.org on any comments you may have.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>> On 7/28/2009 6:47 AM, Henk Uijterwaal wrote:
>>>>> Lou, others,
>>>>>
>>>>>> We received the request for a review of a document currently under
>>>>>> discussion in the CCAMP WG, please see below.  Is there anybody who
>>>>>> has time to do this review in the near future?
>>>>>
>>>>> Reinhard Schrage (rschrage@schrageconsult.net) has voluntered to do
>>>>> this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Reinhard: please post anything you find to both the list and the
>>>>> authors.
>>>>> And thank you for doing this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Henk
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matt & Henk
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>> Subject: IPPM expert review request
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:57:41 -0400
>>>>>> From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
>>>>>> To: ippm-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>>>>>> CC: Brungard, Deborah A, ALABS <dbrungard@att.com>, sunwq@mit.edu,
>>>>>> zhangguoying <zhangguoying@mail.ritt.com.cn>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>     We, the CCAMP WG chairs, would like to request that the IPPM WG
>>>>>> review
>>>>>> a draft that is progressing through the CCAMP WG.  This work applies
>>>>>> IPPM approaches to GMPLS.  The document we'd like reviewed is
>>>>>> available at:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-dppm-06
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this acceptable?  Can you undertake this review?  Alternatively, 
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> can just last call the document in your WG (it has already passed
>>>>>> CCAMP
>>>>>> WG LC).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>> Lou (and Deborah)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ippm mailing list
>>>> ippm@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ippm mailing list
>> ippm@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>
>
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>
> 
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Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 19:44:30 -0400
From: "Thomas D. Nadeau" <tom.nadeau@bt.com>
To: RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>, <tnadeau@cisco.com>, <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, <rcallon@juniper.net>, <adrian.farrel@huawei.com>, <lberger@labn.net>, <dbrungard@att.com>
Message-ID: <C6C1D89E.16DFB%tom.nadeau@bt.com>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4803 (1841)
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Cc: ccamp@ietf.org, girishm@ipinfusion.com
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4803 (1841)
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    I agree that there is an error in the original text. The proposed text
for the fix is correct.

    --Tom



On 8/27/09 2:48 PM, "RFC Errata System" <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org> wrote:

> 
> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC4803,
> "Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switching Router
> (LSR) Management Information Base".
> 
> --------------------------------------
> You may review the report below and at:
> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=4803&eid=1841
> 
> --------------------------------------
> Type: Technical
> Reported by: Girish Mahanta <girishm@ipinfusion.com>
> 
> Section: Section 7
> 
> Original Text
> -------------
> gmplsOutSegmentTTLDecrement OBJECT-TYPE
> SYNTAX Unsigned32
> MAX-ACCESS read-create
> STATUS current
> DESCRIPTION
> "This object indicates the amount by which to decrement the Time
> to Live (TTL) of any payload packets forwarded on this segment if
> per-hop decrementing is being done.
> A value of zero indicates that no decrement should be made or
> that per-hop decrementing is not in use.
> See the gmplsTunnelTTLDecrement object in the gmplsTunnelTable
> of GMPLS-TE-STD-MIB for a value by which to decrement the TTL
> for the whole of a tunnel.
> This object cannot be modified if mplsOutSegmentRowStatus for
> the associated entry in the mplsOutSegmentTable is active(1)."
> REFERENCE
> "1. Time To Live (TTL) Processing in Multi-Protocol Label
> Switching (MPLS) Networks, RFC 3443.
> 2. Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Traffic
> Engineering Management Information Base, RFC 4802."
> DEFVAL { 0 }
> ::= { gmplsOutSegmentEntry 2 }
> 
> Corrected Text
> --------------
> gmplsOutSegmentTTLDecrement OBJECT-TYPE
> SYNTAX Unsigned32
> MAX-ACCESS read-create
> STATUS current
> DESCRIPTION
> "This object indicates the amount by which to decrement the Time
> to Live (TTL) of any payload packets forwarded on this segment if
> per-hop decrementing is being done.
> A value of zero indicates that no decrement should be made or
> that per-hop decrementing is not in use.
> This object cannot be modified if mplsOutSegmentRowStatus for
> the associated entry in the mplsOutSegmentTable is active(1)."
> REFERENCE
> "1. Time To Live (TTL) Processing in Multi-Protocol Label
> Switching (MPLS) Networks, RFC 3443."
> DEFVAL { 0 }
> ::= { gmplsOutSegmentEntry 2 }
> 
> Notes
> -----
> In gmplsOutSegmentTable for the object gmplsOutSegmentTTLDecrement there is no
> gmplsTunnelTTLDecrement object in the gmplsTunnelTable of GMPLS-TE-STD-MIB
> which is referenced.
> 
> Instructions:
> -------------
> This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
> rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG)
> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.
> 
> --------------------------------------
> RFC4803 (draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-lsr-mib-15)
> --------------------------------------
> Title               : Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label
> Switching Router (LSR) Management Information Base
> Publication Date    : February 2007
> Author(s)           : T. Nadeau, Ed., A. Farrel, Ed.
> Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
> Source              : Common Control and Measurement Plane
> Area                : Routing
> Stream              : IETF
> Verifying Party     : IESG
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

-- 
Principal Architect - 21CN Networks



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<TITLE>Re: [CCAMP] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4803 (1841)</TITLE>
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<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:13pt=
'><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I agree that there is an error in the original text=
. The proposed text for the fix is correct.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;--Tom<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 8/27/09 2:48 PM, &quot;RFC Errata System&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"rfc-editor@r=
fc-editor.org">rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org</a>&gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">&gt; <BR>
&gt; The following errata report has been submitted for RFC4803,<BR>
&gt; &quot;Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Label Switchin=
g Router <BR>
&gt; (LSR) Management Information Base&quot;.<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; --------------------------------------<BR>
&gt; You may review the report below and at:<BR>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D4803&amp;eid=3D=
1841">http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D4803&amp;eid=3D1841</a><=
BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; --------------------------------------<BR>
&gt; Type: Technical<BR>
&gt; Reported by: Girish Mahanta &lt;<a href=3D"girishm@ipinfusion.com">giris=
hm@ipinfusion.com</a>&gt;<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Section: Section 7<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Original Text<BR>
&gt; -------------<BR>
&gt; gmplsOutSegmentTTLDecrement OBJECT-TYPE<BR>
&gt; SYNTAX Unsigned32<BR>
&gt; MAX-ACCESS read-create<BR>
&gt; STATUS current<BR>
&gt; DESCRIPTION<BR>
&gt; &quot;This object indicates the amount by which to decrement the Time<=
BR>
&gt; to Live (TTL) of any payload packets forwarded on this segment if<BR>
&gt; per-hop decrementing is being done.<BR>
&gt; A value of zero indicates that no decrement should be made or<BR>
&gt; that per-hop decrementing is not in use.<BR>
&gt; See the gmplsTunnelTTLDecrement object in the gmplsTunnelTable<BR>
&gt; of GMPLS-TE-STD-MIB for a value by which to decrement the TTL<BR>
&gt; for the whole of a tunnel.<BR>
&gt; This object cannot be modified if mplsOutSegmentRowStatus for<BR>
&gt; the associated entry in the mplsOutSegmentTable is active(1).&quot;<BR=
>
&gt; REFERENCE<BR>
&gt; &quot;1. Time To Live (TTL) Processing in Multi-Protocol Label<BR>
&gt; Switching (MPLS) Networks, RFC 3443.<BR>
&gt; 2. Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Traffic<BR>
&gt; Engineering Management Information Base, RFC 4802.&quot;<BR>
&gt; DEFVAL { 0 }<BR>
&gt; ::=3D { gmplsOutSegmentEntry 2 }<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Corrected Text<BR>
&gt; --------------<BR>
&gt; gmplsOutSegmentTTLDecrement OBJECT-TYPE<BR>
&gt; SYNTAX Unsigned32<BR>
&gt; MAX-ACCESS read-create<BR>
&gt; STATUS current<BR>
&gt; DESCRIPTION<BR>
&gt; &quot;This object indicates the amount by which to decrement the Time<=
BR>
&gt; to Live (TTL) of any payload packets forwarded on this segment if<BR>
&gt; per-hop decrementing is being done.<BR>
&gt; A value of zero indicates that no decrement should be made or<BR>
&gt; that per-hop decrementing is not in use.<BR>
&gt; This object cannot be modified if mplsOutSegmentRowStatus for<BR>
&gt; the associated entry in the mplsOutSegmentTable is active(1).&quot;<BR=
>
&gt; REFERENCE<BR>
&gt; &quot;1. Time To Live (TTL) Processing in Multi-Protocol Label<BR>
&gt; Switching (MPLS) Networks, RFC 3443.&quot;<BR>
&gt; DEFVAL { 0 }<BR>
&gt; ::=3D { gmplsOutSegmentEntry 2 }<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Notes<BR>
&gt; -----<BR>
&gt; In gmplsOutSegmentTable for the object gmplsOutSegmentTTLDecrement the=
re is no <BR>
&gt; gmplsTunnelTTLDecrement object in the gmplsTunnelTable of GMPLS-TE-STD=
-MIB <BR>
&gt; which is referenced.<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Instructions:<BR>
&gt; -------------<BR>
&gt; This errata is currently posted as &quot;Reported&quot;. If necessary,=
 please<BR>
&gt; use &quot;Reply All&quot; to discuss whether it should be verified or<=
BR>
&gt; rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG)<BR>
&gt; can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. <BR=
>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; --------------------------------------<BR>
&gt; RFC4803 (draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-lsr-mib-15)<BR>
&gt; --------------------------------------<BR>
&gt; Title &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Labe=
l <BR>
&gt; Switching Router (LSR) Management Information Base<BR>
&gt; Publication Date &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: February 2007<BR>
&gt; Author(s) &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
: T. Nadeau, Ed., A. Farrel, Ed.<BR>
&gt; Category &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;: PROPOSED STANDARD<BR>
&gt; Source &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: Common Control and Measurement Plane<BR>
&gt; Area &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: Routing<BR>
&gt; Stream &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: IETF<BR>
&gt; Verifying Party &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: IESG<BR>
&gt; _______________________________________________<BR>
&gt; CCAMP mailing list<BR>
&gt; <a href=3D"CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><BR>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp">https://www.ietf=
.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><BR>
</FONT><BR>
-- <BR>
Principal Architect - 21CN Networks<BR>
<BR>
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From sunwq@MIT.EDU  Mon Aug 31 18:58:33 2009
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From: "Weiqiang Sun" <sunwq@MIT.EDU>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [ippm]   [Fwd: IPPM expert review request]
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Hi Reinhard,

I appreciate your response. I am glad that we resolved all other concerns 
:).
Please see one last comment below.


>> [RS8]
>> How to compare metrics that have been generated by two different Poisson
>> processes, i.e. e.g. two different arrival rates?
>> [sunwq]
>> No way. Do we need to do that anyway?
>>
>> [RS8a]
>> Pls also see my comments above.
>> If you cannot compare two sets of measurements how will you then arrive 
>> at
>> an objective study of the network components under test?
> [sunwq]
> Maybe I misunderstood you again here. The Poisson arrival rate is an
> approximation of real traffic load. Of course it is worthwhile to find out
> how DUT/SUT performs when traffic load changes. But what else do you 
> expect
> by comparing two data sets from different traffic load? Did I miss 
> something
>
> here?
>
> [RS]
> I was thinking along the lines of say starting with a reasonably large
> lambda_m, get the metric sample for that and then subsequently e.g.
> shortening lambda_m, comparing the resulting metric tuples. I was looking
> for a guideline on how to possibly compare these resulting tuples.
> As this is a stochastic process even shorter lambda_m values can still
> generate longer interarrival times (surely with lower probability but 
> still
> possible). Makes sense?

Larger lambda_m represents higher arrival rate hence will result in shorter 
average inter-arrival delay.
I guess what you want to say is that shorter lambda_m may generate shorter 
inter-arrival times. Yes it is true. But once we decided to get a ``sample", 
instead of a singleton value, then very likely we are interested in the 
system performance on average (and of course, in some other statistics of 
the sample), possibly averaged over a large number of singleton values. In 
this case each singleton value does not have much individual significance. 
This also can be explained by the fact the the processing of signaling 
messages on each NE are themselves random processes. When you generate the 
requests with constant inter-arrival time, you may still get singleton 
values that vary drastically. So it does not make sense to compare any two 
singleton values. However, once averaged over a large number of singleton 
values, the result is meaningful.

And I believe the same thing happens in IP performance measurement. For 
example, in RFC 2681, Poisson process is suggested but no guideline of how 
to compare two samples is provided. It think it makes sense that the 
documents provides methodologies on how to perform a measurement, and leaves 
the task of interpreting the results to the testers, or the owners of 
DUT/SUTs.

Hope this helps!

Best,
Weiqiang 

