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Subject: [clue] CLUE recording available -- update
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Dear all,the full recording (synchronized video, audio, slides and jabber=
 room) of the CLUE session at IETF80 is available at the following URL:ht=
tp://ietf.conf.meetecho.comYou can either choose to watch it online (two =
different approaches are available) or download and replay it whenever yo=
u want.In case of problems with the playout, just drop an e-mail to ietf-=
support@meetecho.com.For the chair(s): please feel free to put the link t=
o the recording in the minutes, if you think this might be useful.Cheers,=
the Meetecho Team

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=0A<div class=3D"xam_msg_class">=0A<div style=3D"font: normal 13px Arial;=
 color:rgb(0, 0, 0);">Dear all,<br><br>the full recording (synchronized v=
ideo, audio, slides and jabber room) of the CLUE session at IETF80 is ava=
ilable at the following URL:<br>http://ietf.conf.meetecho.com<br><br>You =
can either choose to watch it online (two different approaches are availa=
ble) or download and replay it whenever you want.<br><br>In case of probl=
ems with the playout, just drop an e-mail to ietf-support@meetecho.com.<b=
r><br>For the chair(s): please feel free to put the link to the recording=
 in the minutes, if you think this might be useful.<br><br>Cheers,<br>the=
 Meetecho Team<br></div>=0A</div>=0A

--_=__=_XaM3_.1302021377.2A.159565.42.21678.52.42.007.677614819--


From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com  Thu Apr 14 10:30:15 2011
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Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:30:11 -0500
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From: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
To: CLUE <clue@ietf.org>
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Subject: [clue] Link for poll "CLUE WG Virtual Interim Meeting"
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Hi folks,

As noted at the IETF-80 meeting, we are proposing a virtual interim meeting
for the CLUE WG in early May.  Please fill out the doodle by 5pm Pacific
time on Tuesday, April 19th:
http://doodle.com/mzpdbz5i6k4tgzba

The plan would be to discuss any additional concerns with the use cases and
review/address any concerns with the updated requirements document (which
should be out within the next couple weeks).

Thanks,
Mary.
CLUE WG co-chair

--20cf307f38ea05ce2c04a0e447b9
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Hi folks,=A0<div><br></div><div>As noted at the IETF-80 meeting, we are pro=
posing a virtual interim meeting for the CLUE WG in early May. =A0Please fi=
ll out the doodle by 5pm Pacific time on Tuesday, April 19th:</div><div><a =
href=3D"http://doodle.com/mzpdbz5i6k4tgzba" target=3D"_blank">http://doodle=
.com/mzpdbz5i6k4tgzba</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>The plan would be to discuss any additional concerns wi=
th the use cases and review/address any concerns with the updated requireme=
nts document (which should be out within the next couple weeks).=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Mary.=A0</div><div>CLUE WG co-chair<b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br>
<br>
<br>
</div><br></div>

--20cf307f38ea05ce2c04a0e447b9--

From haibin.song@huawei.com  Thu Apr 14 18:59:38 2011
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From: Songhaibin <haibin.song@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [clue] Link for poll "CLUE WG Virtual Interim Meeting"
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I'm very interested in this interim meeting. But the time is extremely uncomfortable to me.

-Haibin

From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mary Barnes
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 1:30 AM
To: CLUE
Subject: [clue] Link for poll "CLUE WG Virtual Interim Meeting"

Hi folks,

As noted at the IETF-80 meeting, we are proposing a virtual interim meeting for the CLUE WG in early May.  Please fill out the doodle by 5pm Pacific time on Tuesday, April 19th:
http://doodle.com/mzpdbz5i6k4tgzba

The plan would be to discuss any additional concerns with the use cases and review/address any concerns with the updated requirements document (which should be out within the next couple weeks).

Thanks,
Mary.
CLUE WG co-chair




--Boundary_(ID_UOYHbG4lJHVN6249RcZOuw)
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m very interested in this interim meeting. But the time is extremely uncomfortable to me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">-Haibin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mary Barnes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 15, 2011 1:30 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> CLUE<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [clue] Link for poll &quot;CLUE WG Virtual Interim Meeting&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Hi folks,&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">As noted at the IETF-80 meeting, we are proposing a virtual interim meeting for the CLUE WG in early May. &nbsp;Please fill out the doodle by 5pm Pacific time on Tuesday, April 19th:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><a href="http://doodle.com/mzpdbz5i6k4tgzba" target="_blank">http://doodle.com/mzpdbz5i6k4tgzba</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The plan would be to discuss any additional concerns with the use cases and review/address any concerns with the updated requirements document (which should be out within the next couple weeks).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Mary.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">CLUE WG co-chair<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com  Tue Apr 19 19:58:55 2011
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Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 21:58:51 -0500
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From: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
To: CLUE <clue@ietf.org>
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Subject: [clue] "CLUE WG Virtual Interim Meeting" -Thursday, May 12th
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--bcaec548a81bee8b2504a150cd14
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Hi folks,

The most preferred date is Thursday, May 12th.  Please reserve that date at
10am-noon Central (8am Pacific, 17:00 UK)  on your calendars. I'll forward
the Webex details as soon as they're available.

Thanks,
Mary.

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> As noted at the IETF-80 meeting, we are proposing a virtual interim meeting
> for the CLUE WG in early May.  Please fill out the doodle by 5pm Pacific
> time on Tuesday, April 19th:
> http://doodle.com/mzpdbz5i6k4tgzba
>
> The plan would be to discuss any additional concerns with the use cases and
> review/address any concerns with the updated requirements document (which
> should be out within the next couple weeks).
>
> Thanks,
> Mary.
> CLUE WG co-chair
>
>
>
>
>

--bcaec548a81bee8b2504a150cd14
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Hi folks,<div><br></div><div>The most preferred date is Thursday, May 12th.=
 =A0Please reserve that date at 10am-noon Central (8am Pacific, 17:00 UK) =
=A0on your calendars. I&#39;ll forward the Webex details as soon as they&#3=
9;re available.=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Mary.=A0<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote">On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Mary Barnes <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com">mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Hi folks,=A0<div><br></div><div>As noted at=
 the IETF-80 meeting, we are proposing a virtual interim meeting for the CL=
UE WG in early May. =A0Please fill out the doodle by 5pm Pacific time on Tu=
esday, April 19th:</div>
<div><a href=3D"http://doodle.com/mzpdbz5i6k4tgzba" target=3D"_blank">http:=
//doodle.com/mzpdbz5i6k4tgzba</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>The plan would be to discuss any additional concerns wi=
th the use cases and review/address any concerns with the updated requireme=
nts document (which should be out within the next couple weeks).=A0</div>

<div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Mary.=A0</div><div>CLUE WG co-chair<b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br>
<br>
<br>
</div><br></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--bcaec548a81bee8b2504a150cd14--

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Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 22:03:56 -0500
Message-ID: <BANLkTim0rG2YsJm1ffkpQqcbaEO4zx6a7Q@mail.gmail.com>
From: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
To: CLUE <clue@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec548a81b23ec5104a150e0d5
Subject: Re: [clue] "CLUE WG Virtual Interim Meeting" -Thursday, May 12th
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--bcaec548a81b23ec5104a150e0d5
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As usual, I messed up my timezone math - this would be at 16:00 London time.
 The correct info is in the RAI area wiki, as well:
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rai/trac/wiki/WikiStart

Mary.

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 9:58 PM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> The most preferred date is Thursday, May 12th.  Please reserve that date at
> 10am-noon Central (8am Pacific, 17:00 UK)  on your calendars. I'll forward
> the Webex details as soon as they're available.
>
> Thanks,
> Mary.
>
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> As noted at the IETF-80 meeting, we are proposing a virtual interim
>> meeting for the CLUE WG in early May.  Please fill out the doodle by 5pm
>> Pacific time on Tuesday, April 19th:
>> http://doodle.com/mzpdbz5i6k4tgzba
>>
>> The plan would be to discuss any additional concerns with the use cases
>> and review/address any concerns with the updated requirements document
>> (which should be out within the next couple weeks).
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mary.
>> CLUE WG co-chair
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

--bcaec548a81b23ec5104a150e0d5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

As usual, I messed up my timezone math - this would be at 16:00 London time=
. =A0The correct info is in the RAI area wiki, as well:<div><a href=3D"http=
://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rai/trac/wiki/WikiStart">http://trac.tools.ietf=
.org/area/rai/trac/wiki/WikiStart</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>Mary.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 19,=
 2011 at 9:58 PM, Mary Barnes <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mary.=
ietf.barnes@gmail.com">mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Hi folks,<div><br></div><div>The most preferred date is Thursday, May 12th.=
 =A0Please reserve that date at 10am-noon Central (8am Pacific, 17:00 UK) =
=A0on your calendars. I&#39;ll forward the Webex details as soon as they&#3=
9;re available.=A0</div>

<div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Mary.=A0<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote">On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Mary Barnes <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mary.ietf.ba=
rnes@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi folks,=A0<div><br></div><div>As noted at =
the IETF-80 meeting, we are proposing a virtual interim meeting for the CLU=
E WG in early May. =A0Please fill out the doodle by 5pm Pacific time on Tue=
sday, April 19th:</div>

<div><a href=3D"http://doodle.com/mzpdbz5i6k4tgzba" target=3D"_blank">http:=
//doodle.com/mzpdbz5i6k4tgzba</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>The plan would be to discuss any additional concerns wi=
th the use cases and review/address any concerns with the updated requireme=
nts document (which should be out within the next couple weeks).=A0</div>


<div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Mary.=A0</div><div>CLUE WG co-chair<b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br>
<br>
<br>
</div><br></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--bcaec548a81b23ec5104a150e0d5--

From wwwrun@ietfc.amsl.com  Wed Apr 20 11:12:05 2011
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Subject: [clue] CLUE WG Virtual Interim Meeting: May 12, 2011
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The CLUE WG will hold an interim virtual meeting on:
2011-05-12, 15.00-17.00 GMT (starting at 8.00 Pacific, 10.00 Central,
11.00
Eastern).

Agenda and details will be announced on the CLUE WG mailing list
(http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/clue/) as soon as available.

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Subject: [clue] Meeting invitation: CLUE Interim - May 12th
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--20cf303f6c6c535a6004a15ddeb9
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Hi all,

Below, please find the details for joining the CLUE WG virtual interim
meeting.  We will have a detailed agenda out about a week before the
meeting.  Per my other email, the focus will be completing the use cases and
reviewing the updated requriements document, which should be submitted soon.


Regards,
Mary.
CLUE WG co-chair

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: IETF Secretariat <messenger@webex.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 1:06 PM
Subject: Meeting invitation: CLUE
To: mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com



Hello ,

IETF Secretariat invites you to attend this online meeting.

Topic: CLUE
Date: Thursday, May 12, 2011
Time: 8:00 am, Pacific Daylight Time (San Francisco, GMT-07:00)
Meeting Number: 969 701 031
Meeting Password: (This meeting does not require a password.)


-------------------------------------------------------
To join the online meeting (Now from mobile devices!)
-------------------------------------------------------
1. Go to
https://workgreen.webex.com/workgreen/j.php?ED=152624022&UID=1209871362&RT=MiM0
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3. If a password is required, enter the meeting password: (This meeting does
not require a password.)
4. Click "Join".

To view in other time zones or languages, please click the link:
https://workgreen.webex.com/workgreen/j.php?ED=152624022&UID=1209871362&ORT=MiM0

-------------------------------------------------------
To join the audio conference only
-------------------------------------------------------
To receive a call back, provide your phone number when you join the meeting,
or call the number below and enter the access code.
Call-in toll number (US/Canada): 1-408-792-6300
Global call-in numbers:
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Access code:969 701 031

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-------------------------------------------------------
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To add this meeting to your calendar program (for example Microsoft
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IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows audio
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session. Please note that any such recordings may be subject to discovery in
the event of litigation.

--20cf303f6c6c535a6004a15ddeb9
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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">Hi all,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">Below, please find the details for joining the C=
LUE WG virtual interim meeting.=A0 We will have a detailed agenda out about=
 a week before the meeting.=A0 Per my other email, the focus will be comple=
ting the use cases and reviewing the updated requriements document, which s=
hould be submitted soon. </div>

<div class=3D"gmail_quote">=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">Regards,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">Mary.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">CLUE WG co-chair</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From:=
 <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">IETF Secretariat</b> <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:messenger@webex.com">messenger@webex.com</a>&gt;</span><br=
>Date: Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 1:06 PM<br>
Subject: Meeting invitation: CLUE<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:mary.ietf.barnes=
@gmail.com">mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com</a><br><br><br><font face=3D"Tahoma,=
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<br>Topic: CLUE <br>Date: Thursday, May 12, 2011 <br>Time: 8:00 am, Pacific=
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br><br>------------------------------------------------------- <br>
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<br>Access code:969 701 031 <br><br>---------------------------------------=
---------------- <br>For assistance <br>-----------------------------------=
-------------------- <br>1. Go to <a href=3D"https://workgreen.webex.com/wo=
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<br>
2. On the left navigation bar, click &quot;Support&quot;. <br><br>You can c=
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</font></div><br>

--20cf303f6c6c535a6004a15ddeb9--

From tme@americafree.tv  Wed Apr 20 15:54:30 2011
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To: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
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Cc: CLUE <clue@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [clue] "CLUE WG Virtual Interim Meeting" -Thursday, May 12th
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On Apr 19, 2011, at 10:58 PM, Mary Barnes wrote:

> Hi folks,
>=20
> The most preferred date is Thursday, May 12th.  Please reserve that =
date at 10am-noon Central (8am Pacific, 17:00 UK)  on your calendars. =
I'll forward the Webex details as soon as they're available.=20

Any chance of getting us telepresence support for this meeting ?

Regards
Marshall=20


>=20
> Thanks,
> Mary.=20
>=20
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Mary Barnes =
<mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi folks,=20
>=20
> As noted at the IETF-80 meeting, we are proposing a virtual interim =
meeting for the CLUE WG in early May.  Please fill out the doodle by 5pm =
Pacific time on Tuesday, April 19th:
> http://doodle.com/mzpdbz5i6k4tgzba
>=20
> The plan would be to discuss any additional concerns with the use =
cases and review/address any concerns with the updated requirements =
document (which should be out within the next couple weeks).=20
>=20
> Thanks,
> Mary.=20
> CLUE WG co-chair
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> clue mailing list
> clue@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue


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From pkyzivat@cisco.com  Fri Apr 22 06:37:11 2011
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Subject: Re: [clue] FW: New Version Notification for draft-romanow-clue-telepresence-requirements-02
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[as individual]

On 4/22/2011 3:48 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) wrote:
> Folks,
> I revised my requirement document based on the numerous helpful comments made during the WG meeting in Prague. An appendix outlines the main changes.
>
> I’m delighted that Stephan Wenger has significantly contributed to the draft and agreed to be a co-author - much appreciation, Stephan.
>
> Looking forward to discussion of the draft-

Allyn,

This is a great improvement - the document hangs together quite nicely.
A few comments:

Why is REQMT-4 SHOULD while REQMT-5 is MUST?
It seems that REQMT-7/REQMT-8 is a similar pairing, but in that case 
both are MUST strength.

    REQMT-6:   The solution MUST include a mechanism to support a means
               of describing dynamic changes in the streams offered by
               the sender; and dynamic changes in the streams requested
               by the receiver.

IMO "a mechanism to support a means" is excessive. How about

    REQMT-6:   The solution MUST include a mechanism to support
               describing dynamic changes in the streams offered by
               the sender; and dynamic changes in the streams requested
               by the receiver.

I don't understand exactly what point REQMT-10 is trying to make that is 
different from REQMT-9. I think maybe REQMT-10 needs a few more words.

	Thanks,
	Paul

From stewe@stewe.org  Fri Apr 22 10:41:49 2011
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From: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
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Hi Paul, group,
Some of the issues you raised are based on my input, so I think it's only
fair if I answer them.
Please see inline.
Stephan


On 4.22.2011 06:37 , "Paul Kyzivat" <pkyzivat@cisco.com> wrote:

>[...]
>
>Why is REQMT-4 SHOULD while REQMT-5 is MUST?
>It seems that REQMT-7/REQMT-8 is a similar pairing, but in that case
>both are MUST strength.

It's an IPR concern that led to the SHOULD.  I prefer the WG has the
freedom to leave out specification text addressing this requirement if IPR
surfaces, which (in this case) seems likely to me.  Sorry for not being
more specific on this public mailing list.

As a general comment, IIRC the previous revision of the draft contained
only MUST requirements.  I personally prefer "soft" requirement language,
so to be able to address concerns of whatever nature (including, but by no
means limited to IPR) without having to abandon one of our own
requirements.

>
>    REQMT-6:   The solution MUST include a mechanism to support a means
>               of describing dynamic changes in the streams offered by
>               the sender; and dynamic changes in the streams requested
>               by the receiver.
>
>IMO "a mechanism to support a means" is excessive. How about
>
>    REQMT-6:   The solution MUST include a mechanism to support
>               describing dynamic changes in the streams offered by
>               the sender; and dynamic changes in the streams requested
>               by the receiver.

Sounds OK to me.

Allyn and I had a discussion about this requirement.  I was worried that
it would not be within the charter.  Allyn proved me wrong.  However, it
is my understanding that implementing this "solution" requires technology
that goes beyond the exchange of properties and capabilities during
session setup.  We are not talking about a bunch of SDP codepoints here.
This is real-time conference control for media.  Is this really what we
want to do in this WG?  It's conceptually a different problem than just
announcing "this session comes from the right camera".  Do we have an idea
what we want to use here?  Mediactl?

>
>I don't understand exactly what point REQMT-10 is trying to make that is
>different from REQMT-9. I think maybe REQMT-10 needs a few more words.

Agreed.  10 seems to be a generalization of 9.

>
>	Thanks,
>	Paul
>_______________________________________________
>clue mailing list
>clue@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue



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From: "Allyn Romanow (allyn)" <allyn@cisco.com>
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Hi Paul and Stephan,
Let me just address quickly  a couple of your points..=20
I agree with you that Reqmt 10 requires more description. It is not
meant as a generalization of of 9. Reqmt 9 talks about the specific case
where the number of media devices varies at different endpoints
participating in the conference. It is specific difficult case to
handle.=20

Reqmt 10 refers to the capabilities of the endpoints, such as the codec
capabilities.  I will suggest text to make this more clear.

See below for comment on necessity of handling dynamic changes in media.


Thanks,
Allyn


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephan Wenger [mailto:stewe@stewe.org]
> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 10:42 AM
> To: Paul Kyzivat (pkyzivat); Allyn Romanow (allyn)
> Cc: CLUE
> Subject: Re: [clue] FW: New Version Notification for draft-romanow-
> clue-telepresence-requirements-02
>=20
> Hi Paul, group,
> Some of the issues you raised are based on my input, so I think it's
> only
> fair if I answer them.
> Please see inline.
> Stephan
>=20
>=20
> On 4.22.2011 06:37 , "Paul Kyzivat" <pkyzivat@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> >[...]
> >
> >Why is REQMT-4 SHOULD while REQMT-5 is MUST?
> >It seems that REQMT-7/REQMT-8 is a similar pairing, but in that case
> >both are MUST strength.
>=20
> It's an IPR concern that led to the SHOULD.  I prefer the WG has the
> freedom to leave out specification text addressing this requirement if
> IPR
> surfaces, which (in this case) seems likely to me.  Sorry for not
being
> more specific on this public mailing list.
>=20
> As a general comment, IIRC the previous revision of the draft
contained
> only MUST requirements.  I personally prefer "soft" requirement
> language,
> so to be able to address concerns of whatever nature (including, but
by
> no
> means limited to IPR) without having to abandon one of our own
> requirements.
>=20
> >
> >    REQMT-6:   The solution MUST include a mechanism to support a
> means
> >               of describing dynamic changes in the streams offered
by
> >               the sender; and dynamic changes in the streams
> requested
> >               by the receiver.
> >
> >IMO "a mechanism to support a means" is excessive. How about
> >
> >    REQMT-6:   The solution MUST include a mechanism to support
> >               describing dynamic changes in the streams offered by
> >               the sender; and dynamic changes in the streams
> requested
> >               by the receiver.
>=20
> Sounds OK to me.
>=20
> Allyn and I had a discussion about this requirement.  I was worried
> that
> it would not be within the charter.  Allyn proved me wrong.  However,
> it
> is my understanding that implementing this "solution" requires
> technology
> that goes beyond the exchange of properties and capabilities during
> session setup.  We are not talking about a bunch of SDP codepoints
> here.
> This is real-time conference control for media.  Is this really what
we
> want to do in this WG?  It's conceptually a different problem than
just
> announcing "this session comes from the right camera".  Do we have an
> idea
> what we want to use here?  Mediactl?

Since characteristics of media streams during a telepresence conference
may change, such as bandwidth, resolution,  and since those changes
affect interoperability, it's necessary to handle communication of
relevant information about those changes. This was discussed and decided
upon during the charter discussion and I don't think we should be
re-opening charter now. The fact that this may not fit into SDP
codepoints is irrelevant. I don't believe that we chartered the group
with the stipulation that the solution must be implementable wholly
within SDP.=20
>=20
> >
> >I don't understand exactly what point REQMT-10 is trying to make that
> is
> >different from REQMT-9. I think maybe REQMT-10 needs a few more
words.
>=20
> Agreed.  10 seems to be a generalization of 9.
>=20
> >
> >	Thanks,
> >	Paul
> >_______________________________________________
> >clue mailing list
> >clue@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>=20


From peter.musgrave@magorcorp.com  Sat Apr 23 10:51:41 2011
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Hi Stephan

On 2011-04-22, at 1:41 PM, Stephan Wenger wrote:

> It's an IPR concern that led to the SHOULD.  I prefer the WG has the
> freedom to leave out specification text addressing this requirement if =
IPR
> surfaces, which (in this case) seems likely to me.  Sorry for not =
being
> more specific on this public mailing list.

REQMT-4:   The solution SHOULD support a mechanism by which a sending
              endpoint or MCU can describe aspects of its
              characteristics and attributes.

Do I understand this to mean that you are concerned about IPR regarding =
the mechanism of describing the aspects and characteristics?=20

Or do you mean that there might be IPR associated with the =
characteristics/attributes themselves?

If the later, then I think a MUST would be ok, since the requirement is =
for a mechanism.

I have the opposite bias - I prefer MUST for requirements - otherwise =
why call them requirements?

A section which describes additional goals (as opposed to requirements) =
could be a place for SHOULD clauses.

Peter=

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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi =
Stephan<div><br><div><div>On 2011-04-22, at 1:41 PM, Stephan Wenger =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: =
normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; ">It's an IPR =
concern that led to the SHOULD. &nbsp;I prefer the WG has the<br>freedom =
to leave out specification text addressing this requirement if =
IPR<br>surfaces, which (in this case) seems likely to me. &nbsp;Sorry =
for not being<br>more specific on this public mailing =
list.<br></span></blockquote></div><br><div><meta charset=3D"utf-8"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Times; font-size: 16px; =
"><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 1em; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always; "><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Monaco" size=3D"3"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 12px;">REQMT-4:   The =
solution SHOULD support a mechanism by which a sending
              endpoint or MCU can describe aspects of its
              characteristics and attributes</span></font>.
</pre><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Helvetica" =
size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: =
12px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 12px;">Do I understand this to mean that you are =
concerned about IPR regarding the mechanism of describing the aspects =
and characteristics?&nbsp;</span></font></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: =
12px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 12px;">Or do you mean that there might be IPR =
associated with the characteristics/attributes =
themselves?</span></font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 12px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 12px;">If the later, then =
I think a MUST would be ok, since the requirement is for a =
mechanism.</span></font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 12px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 12px;">I have the =
opposite bias - I prefer MUST for requirements - otherwise why call them =
requirements?</span></font></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
"><br></span></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">A section which =
describes additional goals (as opposed to requirements) could be a place =
for SHOULD clauses.</span></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 12px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: =
12px;">Peter</span></font></div></span></div></div></body></html>=

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From peter.musgrave@magorcorp.com  Sat Apr 23 11:02:08 2011
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To: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
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Subject: Re: [clue] REQ-6
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Hi all,=20
On 2011-04-22, at 1:41 PM, Stephan Wenger wrote:

>>=20
>>=20
>>   REQMT-6:   The solution MUST include a mechanism to support a means
>>              of describing dynamic changes in the streams offered by
>>              the sender; and dynamic changes in the streams requested
>>              by the receiver.
>>=20
>> IMO "a mechanism to support a means" is excessive. How about
>>=20
>>   REQMT-6:   The solution MUST include a mechanism to support
>>              describing dynamic changes in the streams offered by
>>              the sender; and dynamic changes in the streams requested
>>              by the receiver.
>=20
> Sounds OK to me.
>=20
> Allyn and I had a discussion about this requirement.  I was worried =
that
> it would not be within the charter.  Allyn proved me wrong.  However, =
it
> is my understanding that implementing this "solution" requires =
technology
> that goes beyond the exchange of properties and capabilities during
> session setup.  We are not talking about a bunch of SDP codepoints =
here.
> This is real-time conference control for media.  Is this really what =
we
> want to do in this WG?  It's conceptually a different problem than =
just
> announcing "this session comes from the right camera".  Do we have an =
idea
> what we want to use here?  Mediactl?

I guess I share Stephan's concern. Perhaps part of the issue is the =
phrase "dynamic changes in the streams"?

Arguably, frame rate could be viewed as such a change - but I don't =
think that is what we mean. IIUC what we mean are things like:
"This stream now has video from the Paris endpoint center camera (since =
that person is now speaking). "

Is that the kind of thing we mean?

Could we refine "dynamic changes in the streams" to "a change in stream =
content (e.g.. a voice activated stream selection switch)" (maybe =
someone can improve on this?)

This would make it clear that we are not doing floor control type stuff =
- but we are conveying semantic information about stream changes.=20

Peter


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From: "Allyn Romanow (allyn)" <allyn@cisco.com>
To: "Duckworth, Mark" <Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com>, "CLUE" <clue@ietf.org>
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Hi Mark - yes, I agree they are redundant. Reqmt 7 can be removed.=20

Best regards,
Allyn

> -----Original Message-----
> From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of
> Duckworth, Mark
> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 11:40 AM
> To: CLUE
> Subject: Re: [clue] FW: New Version Notificationfor
draft-romanow-clue-
> telepresence-requirements-02
>=20
> I like the improvements in this new draft.
> I don't understand the difference between requirements 4 and 7.
>=20
> REQMT-4: The solution SHOULD support a mechanism by which a sending
>          endpoint or MCU can describe aspects of its
>          characteristics and attributes.
>=20
> REQMT-7: The solution MUST include a mechanism by which the
>          receiver can learn the description of the streams the
>          sender can send it.
>=20
> REQMT-4 is about describing the sender, while REQMT-7 is about
> describing the streams that are sent.  How are these different?  I
> would think that describing the sender is only relevant if the
> description pertains to the streams being sent, otherwise what good is
> it?
>=20
> Some examples of things that might be described  for REQMT-7 are:
> number of streams, spatial relationship between streams, association
of
> audio and video streams, scale of video streams, viewpoint of the
> camera for video streams, and which site (or even which camera within
a
> site) is the source of a stream.  Are there additional characteristics
> and attributes that would be relevant for REQMT-4 that are not
included
> in REQMT-7?
>=20
> Mark Duckworth
> _______________________________________________
> clue mailing list
> clue@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue

From Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com  Mon Apr 25 09:39:42 2011
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From: "Duckworth, Mark" <Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com>
To: CLUE <clue@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 09:39:37 -0700
Thread-Topic: [clue] FW: New Version Notificationfor draft-romanow-clue-telepresence-requirements-02
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I was thinking REQMT-7 is more clear, so it makes more sense to remove REQM=
T-4 and keep REQMT-7.

Mark

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allyn Romanow (allyn) [mailto:allyn@cisco.com]
> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 10:06 AM
> To: Duckworth, Mark; CLUE
> Subject: RE: [clue] FW: New Version Notificationfor draft-romanow-clue-
> telepresence-requirements-02
>=20
> Hi Mark - yes, I agree they are redundant. Reqmt 7 can be removed.
>=20
> Best regards,
> Allyn
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of
> > Duckworth, Mark
> > Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 11:40 AM
> > To: CLUE
> > Subject: Re: [clue] FW: New Version Notificationfor
> draft-romanow-clue-
> > telepresence-requirements-02
> >
> > I like the improvements in this new draft.
> > I don't understand the difference between requirements 4 and 7.
> >
> > REQMT-4: The solution SHOULD support a mechanism by which a sending
> >          endpoint or MCU can describe aspects of its
> >          characteristics and attributes.
> >
> > REQMT-7: The solution MUST include a mechanism by which the
> >          receiver can learn the description of the streams the
> >          sender can send it.
> >
> > REQMT-4 is about describing the sender, while REQMT-7 is about
> > describing the streams that are sent.  How are these different?  I
> > would think that describing the sender is only relevant if the
> > description pertains to the streams being sent, otherwise what good
> is
> > it?
> >
> > Some examples of things that might be described  for REQMT-7 are:
> > number of streams, spatial relationship between streams, association
> of
> > audio and video streams, scale of video streams, viewpoint of the
> > camera for video streams, and which site (or even which camera within
> a
> > site) is the source of a stream.  Are there additional
> characteristics
> > and attributes that would be relevant for REQMT-4 that are not
> included
> > in REQMT-7?
> >
> > Mark Duckworth

From allyn@cisco.com  Mon Apr 25 09:51:32 2011
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Thread-Topic: [clue] FW: New VersionNotificationfor	draft-romanow-clue-telepresence-requirements-02
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From: "Allyn Romanow (allyn)" <allyn@cisco.com>
To: "Duckworth, Mark" <Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com>, "CLUE" <clue@ietf.org>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Apr 2011 16:51:30.0264 (UTC) FILETIME=[06839D80:01CC0369]
Subject: Re: [clue] FW: New VersionNotificationfor	draft-romanow-clue-telepresence-requirements-02
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Thanks for your comment, we can take it into account in the next
version.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of
> Duckworth, Mark
> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 9:40 AM
> To: CLUE
> Subject: Re: [clue] FW: New VersionNotificationfor draft-romanow-clue-
> telepresence-requirements-02
>=20
> I was thinking REQMT-7 is more clear, so it makes more sense to remove
> REQMT-4 and keep REQMT-7.
>=20
> Mark
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Allyn Romanow (allyn) [mailto:allyn@cisco.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 10:06 AM
> > To: Duckworth, Mark; CLUE
> > Subject: RE: [clue] FW: New Version Notificationfor draft-romanow-
> clue-
> > telepresence-requirements-02
> >
> > Hi Mark - yes, I agree they are redundant. Reqmt 7 can be removed.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Allyn
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf
> > Of
> > > Duckworth, Mark
> > > Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 11:40 AM
> > > To: CLUE
> > > Subject: Re: [clue] FW: New Version Notificationfor
> > draft-romanow-clue-
> > > telepresence-requirements-02
> > >
> > > I like the improvements in this new draft.
> > > I don't understand the difference between requirements 4 and 7.
> > >
> > > REQMT-4: The solution SHOULD support a mechanism by which a
sending
> > >          endpoint or MCU can describe aspects of its
> > >          characteristics and attributes.
> > >
> > > REQMT-7: The solution MUST include a mechanism by which the
> > >          receiver can learn the description of the streams the
> > >          sender can send it.
> > >
> > > REQMT-4 is about describing the sender, while REQMT-7 is about
> > > describing the streams that are sent.  How are these different?  I
> > > would think that describing the sender is only relevant if the
> > > description pertains to the streams being sent, otherwise what
good
> > is
> > > it?
> > >
> > > Some examples of things that might be described  for REQMT-7 are:
> > > number of streams, spatial relationship between streams,
> association
> > of
> > > audio and video streams, scale of video streams, viewpoint of the
> > > camera for video streams, and which site (or even which camera
> within
> > a
> > > site) is the source of a stream.  Are there additional
> > characteristics
> > > and attributes that would be relevant for REQMT-4 that are not
> > included
> > > in REQMT-7?
> > >
> > > Mark Duckworth
> _______________________________________________
> clue mailing list
> clue@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue

From eckelcu@cisco.com  Mon Apr 25 09:58:58 2011
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From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" <eckelcu@cisco.com>
To: "Peter Musgrave" <peter.musgrave@magorcorp.com>, "Stephan Wenger" <stewe@stewe.org>
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Subject: Re: [clue] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-romanow-clue-telepresence-requirements-02
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What we decided to do in SIPREC for such things is say that there MUST
be mechanism for xyz, and then leave it up to implementations to
use/support the mechanism.

Cheers,
Charles=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of Peter Musgrave
> Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 10:52 AM
> To: Stephan Wenger
> Cc: CLUE
> Subject: Re: [clue] FW: New Version Notification
fordraft-romanow-clue-telepresence-requirements-02
>=20
> Hi Stephan
>=20
> On 2011-04-22, at 1:41 PM, Stephan Wenger wrote:
>=20
>=20
> 	It's an IPR concern that led to the SHOULD.  I prefer the WG has
the
> 	freedom to leave out specification text addressing this
requirement if IPR
> 	surfaces, which (in this case) seems likely to me.  Sorry for
not being
> 	more specific on this public mailing list.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> REQMT-4:   The solution SHOULD support a mechanism by which a sending
>               endpoint or MCU can describe aspects of its
>               characteristics and attributes.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Do I understand this to mean that you are concerned about IPR
regarding the mechanism of describing
> the aspects and characteristics?
>=20
>=20
> Or do you mean that there might be IPR associated with the
characteristics/attributes themselves?
>=20
>=20
> If the later, then I think a MUST would be ok, since the requirement
is for a mechanism.
>=20
>=20
> I have the opposite bias - I prefer MUST for requirements - otherwise
why call them requirements?
>=20
>=20
> A section which describes additional goals (as opposed to
requirements) could be a place for SHOULD
> clauses.
>=20
>=20
> Peter