From Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com Tue Nov 1 10:03:44 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 988CF21F910C for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 10:03:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8WEh-R3QjDgn for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 10:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crpehubprd02.polycom.com (crpehubprd01.polycom.com [140.242.64.158]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A052521F90F9 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 10:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Crpmboxprd01.polycom.com ([fe80::e001:c7b0:91a1:9443]) by crpehubprd02.polycom.com ([fe80::5efe:10.236.0.154%12]) with mapi; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 10:00:37 -0700 From: "Duckworth, Mark" To: "clue@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 10:00:36 -0700 Thread-Topic: [clue] I-D Action: draft-ietf-clue-framework-01.txt Thread-Index: AcyYEzu3TGdp2l1oSKaFuT17g4vT8QAozcXg Message-ID: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D062@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> References: <20111031212220.19329.11050.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20111031212220.19329.11050.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [clue] I-D Action: draft-ietf-clue-framework-01.txt X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 17:03:44 -0000 Here is a summary list of changes since draft-ietf-clue-framework-00: o Add some overview at beginning of section 5 o Clarify media capture is not just camera or microphone, it can be synthet= ic o Clarification on message flow o Capture set can have attributes for area of scene and millimeter scale o Combine video composed and audio mixed attributes into a single more gene= ral attribute o Clarify a provider can have more than one capture set o Clarify left and right o Add new section on extensibility Mark Duckworth -----Original Message----- From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of int= ernet-drafts@ietf.org Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 5:22 PM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: [clue] I-D Action: draft-ietf-clue-framework-01.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the ControLling mUltiple streams for tEle= presence Working Group of the IETF. Title : Framework for Telepresence Multi-Streams Author(s) : Allyn Romanow Mark Duckworth Andrew Pepperell Brian Baldino Filename : draft-ietf-clue-framework-01.txt Pages : 34 Date : 2011-10-31 This memo offers a framework for a protocol that enables devices in a telepresence conference to interoperate by specifying the relationships between multiple RTP streams. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-clue-framework-01.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-clue-framework-01.txt _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com Tue Nov 1 10:37:05 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C8F921F99EA for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 10:37:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RyKmyvZT2DIs for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 10:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crpehubprd02.polycom.com (crpehubprd01.polycom.com [140.242.64.158]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28FC821F99E9 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 10:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Crpmboxprd01.polycom.com ([fe80::e001:c7b0:91a1:9443]) by crpehubprd02.polycom.com ([fe80::5efe:10.236.0.154%12]) with mapi; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 10:35:10 -0700 From: "Duckworth, Mark" To: "clue@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 10:35:07 -0700 Thread-Topic: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion Thread-Index: AcyUvVrMDMQ5UufGQp+yMcU2E0ehsQANDRggAPInLDA= Message-ID: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D0AA@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> References: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE42473E@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> <0a0301cc94f3$19359ed0$4ba0dc70$%roni@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <0a0301cc94f3$19359ed0$4ba0dc70$%roni@huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D0AACRPMBOXPRD01pol_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 17:37:05 -0000 --_000_44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D0AACRPMBOXPRD01pol_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Roni, The two topics you listed are items 3 and 4 from my message. I think your item 1 and my item 3 are about source selection, which needs a= discussion to include selecting sources for a mix, and also selecting sour= ces a consumer wants to receive individually (not part of a mix). Jonathan= 's presentation from the Andover meeting (13-CLUE-Interim-Sources.ppt) rais= ed some good points about this. Do you agree this all falls under the same= topic? I think your item 2 and my item 4 are the same topic. Are you talking abou= t switching streams, or composing streams, or both? Do you see these switc= hing modes as something a particular consumer can request from a provider, = that will not impact other consumers? Or is it more like a conference-wide = mode? (this gets into Paul's point as well). My concern about this is I don't see how to bound it. Are you suggesting w= e should define a few specific composing/switching modes that a provider ca= n enumerate, and a way for a consumer to choose one? Mark From: Roni Even [mailto:Even.roni@huawei.com] Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 5:55 PM To: Duckworth, Mark; clue@ietf.org Subject: RE: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discuss= ion Hi Mark, I understand that you have two topics 1. Allowing the consumer to select specific media streams for a mix (= for example, left camera from room 1, middle camera from room 2 and left ca= mera from room 3) which I think should be possible. This will require infor= mation and protocol that will allow this functionality. 2. Allowing the provider to specify the mixture algorithm and for th= e consumer to ask for a specific one. I think that we need at least to enab= le the provider and consumer to specify or request site switch or segment s= witch mode. Roni From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Duc= kworth, Mark Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 5:30 PM To: clue@ietf.org Subject: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion This is following up on the major issues list from the interim meeting in A= ndover. Issues for discussion: 1. Item 5 video composition (discussion kicked off by Stephan) is a p= art of this. But more generally, the same sort of issue applies to other m= edia types, not just video. a. For example, should a provider that mixes audio be able to indicat= e to the consumer which audio sources are in the mix? b. Proposal - the more general case should be consistent with the outc= ome of the Item 5 discussio 2. Should a provider that mixes or composes other media captures/stre= ams into a new stream be able to indicate some information about the algori= thm it uses to choose which other captures/streams to mix? a. Proposal - no, CLUE does not need this. 3. Should a provider that mixes or composes media be able to allow th= e consumer to make a choice about which other captures/streams are included= in the mix? a. This should be covered by Major Issue Item 3 source selection - (d= iscussion to be kicked off by Jonathan) 4. Do we need support in CLUE for allowing a media consumer to reques= t the provider to compose or mix particular media sources into a new media = stream, using a particular algorithm? a. Proposal - no, CLUE does not need this. b. But if something like item 5 idea is accepted, then maybe a provide= r can offer a few alternatives and a consumer can choose among them Mark Duckworth --_000_44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D0AACRPMBOXPRD01pol_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Roni,

 

The two topics you listed are items 3 and 4 from my= message.

 

I think your item 1 and my item 3 are about source selection, wh= ich needs a discussion to include selecting sources for a mix, and also sel= ecting sources a consumer wants to receive individually (not part of a mix)= .  Jonathan’s presentation from the Andover meeting (13-CLUE-Int= erim-Sources.ppt) raised some good points about this.  Do you agree th= is all falls under the same topic?

 

I think your item 2 and my item 4 are t= he same topic.  Are you talking about switching streams, or composing = streams, or both?  Do you see these switching modes as something a par= ticular consumer can request from a provider, that will not impact other co= nsumers? Or is it more like a conference-wide mode? (this gets into Paul= 217;s point as well).

My concern about this is I don’t see how to bound = it.  Are you suggesting we should define a few specific composing/swit= ching modes that a provider can enumerate, and a way for a consumer to choo= se one?

 

Mark

 

 

Fr= om: Roni Even [mailto:Even.roni@huawei.com]
Sent: Thursday, O= ctober 27, 2011 5:55 PM
To: Duckworth, Mark; clue@ietf.org
= Subject: RE: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching dis= cussion

 

Hi Mark,

I understa= nd that you have two topics

 

1.      = Allowing the = consumer to select specific media streams for a mix (for example, left came= ra from room 1, middle camera from room 2 and left camera from room 3) whic= h I think should be possible. This will require information and protocol th= at will allow this functionality.

2.     &nbs= p; Allowing th= e provider  to specify the mixture algorithm and for the consumer to a= sk for a specific one. I think that we need at least to enable the provider= and consumer to specify or request site switch or segment switch mode.

 

Roni

 

From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.= org] On Behalf Of Duckworth, Mark
Sent: Thursday, October = 27, 2011 5:30 PM
To: clue@ietf.org
Subject: [clue] Kick= -off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion

 

This is following up on the major issues list from the interim meeting in = Andover.

Issues for discussion:

1.       <= /span>Item 5 video composition (discussion kicked off by S= tephan) is a part of this.  But more generally, the same sort of issue= applies to other media types, not just video.

a.       For example, should a provider that mixes audio be abl= e to indicate to the consumer which audio sources are in the mix?

b.      Pr= oposal – the more general case should be consistent with the outcome = of the Item 5 discussio

=

 =

2.       Should a provider that mixes or composes other media c= aptures/streams into a new stream be able to indicate some information abou= t the algorithm it uses to choose which other captures/streams to mix?=

a.  &nbs= p;    Proposal – no, CLUE does= not need this.

3.  &n= bsp;    Should a provider that mixes= or composes media be able to allow the consumer to make a choice about whi= ch other captures/streams are included in the mix?

a.     &nbs= p; This should be covered by Major Issue Item 3 sou= rce selection – (discussion to be kicked off by Jonathan)<= /p>

4.       Do we need support in CLUE for allowing a media consume= r to request the provider to compose or mix particular media sources into a= new media stream, using a particular algorithm?

a.       <= /span>Proposal – no, CLUE does not need this.

b.   =    But if something like item 5 idea is a= ccepted, then maybe a provider can offer a few alternatives and a consumer = can choose among them

 <= /p>

Mark Duckworth

<= o:p> 

= --_000_44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D0AACRPMBOXPRD01pol_-- From pauwitty@cisco.com Wed Nov 2 05:32:56 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CAF11F0C97 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 05:32:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9kA108lLyrGd for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 05:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEB961F0C8E for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 05:32:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=pauwitty@cisco.com; l=9309; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1320237174; x=1321446774; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject:references: in-reply-to; bh=uOhQGD9aj7rZ4RV2JP2Oix7qGdCmQFlRWAXNPQ4wdEk=; b=UKt/SYqXOmfFuo0gOz5lpRMZrDXrnASTXKLPrlfJW+Ve8RwJoS8iRaW3 SoeF/0ZNqT8HsvUPTp0JRlFGfZ5utHMLO9IRj+6HVItrX956uVQgqUH0L VscGQuHPoRuc7uD7qj4Gc+8EJOYxACMor/JZuo1cwApxTOTf6WKpcqNqZ Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgwFACI4sU6Q/khL/2dsb2JhbABDgk2lXYEegQWBcgEBAQQBAQEPAVsKEQsYCRYPCQMCAQIBFTATBgIBAR6HaJY/AZ5fiRAElBSFMYw0 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,443,1315180800"; d="scan'208,217";a="59036092" Received: from ams-core-2.cisco.com ([144.254.72.75]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Nov 2011 12:32:53 +0000 Received: from [10.47.197.34] ([10.47.197.34]) by ams-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pA2CWr7X030853 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 12:32:53 GMT Message-ID: <4EB13875.6090503@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 12:32:53 +0000 From: Paul Witty User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.23) Gecko/20110928 Mandriva/3.1.15-0.1mdv2010.2 (2010.2) Thunderbird/3.1.15 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clue@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090005060506020509040201" Subject: Re: [clue] New draft on Transport Options for Clue X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 12:32:56 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090005060506020509040201 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My thoughts on it from a first scan... There is no hard real-time transmission requirement for CLUE messages; latencies in the seconds range are acceptable. -- provides a bad user experience if initial media takes seconds Option 1 : Piggy-pack on SIP -- Not guaranteed to get through back-to-back user agents -- agree that SIP INFO is the way to go if chosen -- endpoints may have issues with receiving large SIP messages Option 2: CLUE control channel on the media plane over UDP -- Like BFCP, so the question as to whether signalling is acceptable in the media plane seems to have been already answered -- Congestion control can be assumed to be less important as bandwidth of CLUE should be much less than that of media -- Need to make UDP reliable -- Need to support CLUE messages larger than MTU, so will need additional encapsulation e.g. sequence numbers -- Will end up implementing TCP-over-UDP or similar Option 3: CLUE control channel on the media plane over TCP -- Tried for BFCP - abandoned in favour of UDP Option 4: CLUE control channel over UDP and RTP -- Retransmission/FEC can be used on things other than RTP - seems likely that endpoints supporting CLUE will generate/process CLUE messages in a different place to media, so possibly no advantage in reusing RTP over implementing the same schemes again - RTP is for real time things i.e. not CLUE. -- May have an advantage that SBCs are already used to passing RTP through, so may get through where other data over UDP does not Option 6: HTTP -- No guarantee a device is reachable over HTTP, particularly when SIP is to a local call control device (as well as possibly proxying media, such that nothing is ever sent directly to/from the far end) Clue Discovery -- Can possibly include a simple parameter in the SDP to state that a particular media session can have its contents controlled by CLUE. We need not just discoverability of CLUE, but negotiation i.e. if one end supports CLUE and the other does not, we should fall back to a non-CLUE SIP call. -- May be advantageous to send something in the SIP headers, so that even in the case of delayed offer we know that the fair end supports CLUE at the earliest possible opportunity -- Paul On 25/10/11 04:44, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > We just published a draft on Transport Options for > Clue, draft-wenger-clue-transport-01 > (it's -01 as I fixed some issues with the author list in -00). > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wenger-clue-transport-01 : > A new version of I-D, draft-wenger-clue-transport-01.txt has been > successfully submitted by Marshall Eubanks and posted to the IETF > repository. > > Filename: draft-wenger-clue-transport > Revision: 01 > Title: Transport Options for Clue > Creation date: 2011-10-24 > WG ID: Individual Submission > Number of pages: 9 > > It clearly needs some work... > > Regards > Marshall > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue --------------090005060506020509040201 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My thoughts on it from a first scan...

   There is no hard real-time transmission requirement for CLUE
   messages; latencies in the seconds range are acceptable.
-- provides a bad user experience if initial media takes seconds

Option 1 : Piggy-pack on SIP
-- Not guaranteed to get through back-to-back user agents
-- agree that SIP INFO is the way to go if chosen
-- endpoints may have issues with receiving large SIP messages

Option 2: CLUE control channel on the media plane over UDP
-- Like BFCP, so the question as to whether signalling is acceptable in the media plane seems to have been already answered
-- Congestion control can be assumed to be less important as bandwidth of CLUE should be much less than that of media
-- Need to make UDP reliable
-- Need to support CLUE messages larger than MTU, so will need additional encapsulation e.g. sequence numbers
-- Will end up implementing TCP-over-UDP or similar

Option 3: CLUE control channel on the media plane over TCP
-- Tried for BFCP - abandoned in favour of UDP

Option 4: CLUE control channel over UDP and RTP
-- Retransmission/FEC can be used on things other than RTP - seems likely that endpoints supporting CLUE will generate/process CLUE messages in a different place to media, so possibly no advantage in reusing RTP over implementing the same schemes again - RTP is for real time things i.e. not CLUE.
-- May have an advantage that SBCs are already used to passing RTP through, so may get through where other data over UDP does not

Option 6: HTTP
-- No guarantee a device is reachable over HTTP, particularly when SIP is to a local call control device (as well as possibly proxying media, such that nothing is ever sent directly to/from the far end)

Clue Discovery
-- Can possibly include a simple parameter in the SDP to state that a particular media session can have its contents controlled by CLUE.  We need not just discoverability of CLUE, but negotiation i.e. if one end supports CLUE and the other does not, we should fall back to a non-CLUE SIP call.
-- May be advantageous to send something in the SIP headers, so that even in the case of delayed offer we know that the fair end supports CLUE at the earliest possible opportunity


--

Paul

On 25/10/11 04:44, Marshall Eubanks wrote:
We just published a draft on Transport Options for Clue, draft-wenger-clue-transport-01
(it's -01 as I fixed some issues with the author list in -00). 

                     
A new version of I-D, draft-wenger-clue-transport-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Marshall Eubanks and posted to the IETF repository.

Filename:        draft-wenger-clue-transport
Revision:        01
Title:           Transport Options for Clue
Creation date:   2011-10-24
WG ID:           Individual Submission
Number of pages: 9

It clearly needs some work...

Regards
Marshall

 

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--------------090005060506020509040201-- From Even.roni@huawei.com Wed Nov 2 08:14:15 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A9B11F0CAE for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 08:14:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.282 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.282 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.316, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WdmpbTlMRWQ8 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 08:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (szxga01-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CF481F0CAD for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 08:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga05-in [172.24.2.49]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LU100I2KGWXCR@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for clue@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 23:12:33 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LU10007CGWXAQ@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for clue@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 23:12:33 +0800 (CST) Received: from windows8d787f9 (bzq-109-65-207-242.red.bezeqint.net [109.65.207.242]) by szxml11-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0LU1003IZGWR2Y@szxml11-in.huawei.com>; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 23:12:33 +0800 (CST) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 17:10:03 +0200 From: Roni Even In-reply-to: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D0AA@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> To: "'Duckworth, Mark'" , clue@ietf.org Message-id: <033301cc9971$82402da0$86c088e0$%roni@huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_kjzvpip2BmMICr+hgNdQ+w)" Content-language: en-us Thread-index: AcyUvVrMDMQ5UufGQp+yMcU2E0ehsQANDRggAPInLDAAK0wloA== References: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE42473E@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> <0a0301cc94f3$19359ed0$4ba0dc70$%roni@huawei.com> <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D0AA@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 15:14:15 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_kjzvpip2BmMICr+hgNdQ+w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Mark, The reason I shorted the list is because if we want item 4 support than item 2 is needed to let the consumer know what algorithms can be used. As for item 1 I do not understand why we are even discussing it. In current RTP you know the SSRCs of the mixed sources as they are part of CSRC, so for CLUE we need to verify that this is not broken. The change in the mix should be reflected in RTCP but we will need the association to the CLUE information. My view is that we need to support both switching and mixing (so switching here is a case of mixing). The issue of conference-wide mode or per user is application or implementation specific. The provider can decide how to respond to a request based on its capabilities and policies. As for enumerating the cases. There is more than one dimension. I think that we can look at general policy (site switch, segment switch), per receive stream (Voice activated, round robin). The usage can be automated, so he consumer asks for the mode and the actual content is decided by the producer based on the mode (Example segment switch, stream 1 voice activated, stream 2 round robin- this will send in stream 1 the current speaker and in stream 2 go through the rest of the streams (all rooms and all cameras) in round robin). If the consumer will want to build a specific mix he should be able to ask for a specific streams for example in the previous example the consumer can ask also for a third stream that will have the Manager TP system middle camera. I think that it will be good in the first stage to allow the producer to provide the information about the modes (segment switch, site switch, voice activate,..) and to allow the consumer to identify who is in the mix/switch. The protocol from the consumer to provider can be a second stage Roni From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Duckworth, Mark Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 7:35 PM To: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion Hi Roni, The two topics you listed are items 3 and 4 from my message. I think your item 1 and my item 3 are about source selection, which needs a discussion to include selecting sources for a mix, and also selecting sources a consumer wants to receive individually (not part of a mix). Jonathan's presentation from the Andover meeting (13-CLUE-Interim-Sources.ppt) raised some good points about this. Do you agree this all falls under the same topic? I think your item 2 and my item 4 are the same topic. Are you talking about switching streams, or composing streams, or both? Do you see these switching modes as something a particular consumer can request from a provider, that will not impact other consumers? Or is it more like a conference-wide mode? (this gets into Paul's point as well). My concern about this is I don't see how to bound it. Are you suggesting we should define a few specific composing/switching modes that a provider can enumerate, and a way for a consumer to choose one? Mark From: Roni Even [mailto:Even.roni@huawei.com] Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 5:55 PM To: Duckworth, Mark; clue@ietf.org Subject: RE: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion Hi Mark, I understand that you have two topics 1. Allowing the consumer to select specific media streams for a mix (for example, left camera from room 1, middle camera from room 2 and left camera from room 3) which I think should be possible. This will require information and protocol that will allow this functionality. 2. Allowing the provider to specify the mixture algorithm and for the consumer to ask for a specific one. I think that we need at least to enable the provider and consumer to specify or request site switch or segment switch mode. Roni From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Duckworth, Mark Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 5:30 PM To: clue@ietf.org Subject: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion This is following up on the major issues list from the interim meeting in Andover. Issues for discussion: 1. Item 5 video composition (discussion kicked off by Stephan) is a part of this. But more generally, the same sort of issue applies to other media types, not just video. a. For example, should a provider that mixes audio be able to indicate to the consumer which audio sources are in the mix? b. Proposal - the more general case should be consistent with the outcome of the Item 5 discussio 2. Should a provider that mixes or composes other media captures/streams into a new stream be able to indicate some information about the algorithm it uses to choose which other captures/streams to mix? a. Proposal - no, CLUE does not need this. 3. Should a provider that mixes or composes media be able to allow the consumer to make a choice about which other captures/streams are included in the mix? a. This should be covered by Major Issue Item 3 source selection - (discussion to be kicked off by Jonathan) 4. Do we need support in CLUE for allowing a media consumer to request the provider to compose or mix particular media sources into a new media stream, using a particular algorithm? a. Proposal - no, CLUE does not need this. b. But if something like item 5 idea is accepted, then maybe a provider can offer a few alternatives and a consumer can choose among them Mark Duckworth --Boundary_(ID_kjzvpip2BmMICr+hgNdQ+w) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Mark,

The reason I shorted the = list is because if we want item 4 support than item 2 is needed to let = the consumer know what algorithms can be used.

As for item 1 I do not = understand why we are even discussing it. In current RTP you know the = SSRCs of the mixed sources as they are part of CSRC, so for CLUE we need = to verify that this is not broken. The change in the mix should be = reflected in RTCP but we will need the association to the CLUE = information.

 

My view is that we need = to support  both switching and mixing (so switching here is a case = of mixing). The issue of conference-wide mode or per user is application = or implementation specific. The provider can decide how to respond to a = request based on its capabilities and policies.

 

As for enumerating the = cases.  There is more than one dimension. I think that we can look = at general policy (site switch, segment switch), per receive stream = (Voice activated, round robin). The usage can be automated, so he = consumer asks for the mode and the actual content is decided by the = producer based on the mode (Example segment switch, stream 1 voice = activated, stream 2 round robin- this will send in stream 1 the current = speaker and in stream 2 go through the rest of the streams (all rooms = and all cameras) in round robin).

If the consumer will = want to build a specific mix he should be able to ask for a specific = streams for example in the previous example the consumer can ask also = for a third stream that will have the Manager TP system middle = camera.

 

I think that it will be = good in the first stage to allow the producer to provide the information = about the modes (segment switch, site switch, voice activate,..) and to = allow the consumer to identify who is in the mix/switch. The protocol = from the consumer to provider can be a second = stage

Roni

 

 

 

From:= = clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Duckworth, Mark
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 7:35 = PM
To: clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off = Item 2: Layout, composition, switching = discussion

 

Hi Roni,

 

The two topics you = listed are items 3 and 4 from my message.

 

I think your item 1 and = my item 3 are about source selection, which needs a discussion to = include selecting sources for a mix, and also selecting sources a = consumer wants to receive individually (not part of a mix).  = Jonathan’s presentation from the Andover meeting = (13-CLUE-Interim-Sources.ppt) raised some good points about this.  = Do you agree this all falls under the same = topic?

 

I think your item 2 and = my item 4 are the same topic.  Are you talking about switching = streams, or composing streams, or both?  Do you see these switching = modes as something a particular consumer can request from a provider, = that will not impact other consumers? Or is it more like a = conference-wide mode? (this gets into Paul’s point as = well).

My concern about this is I don’t see how = to bound it.  Are you suggesting we should define a few specific = composing/switching modes that a provider can enumerate, and a way for a = consumer to choose one?

 

Mark

 

 

From:= = Roni Even [mailto:Even.roni@huawei.com]
Sent: Thursday, = October 27, 2011 5:55 PM
To: Duckworth, Mark; = clue@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, = composition, switching discussion

 

Hi Mark,

I understand that you = have two topics

 

1.       = Allowing the consumer to select specific media = streams for a mix (for example, left camera from room 1, middle camera = from room 2 and left camera from room 3) which I think should be = possible. This will require information and protocol that will allow = this functionality.

2.       = Allowing the provider  to specify the = mixture algorithm and for the consumer to ask for a specific one. I = think that we need at least to enable the provider and consumer to = specify or request site switch or segment switch = mode.

 

Roni

 

From:= = clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Duckworth, Mark
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 5:30 = PM
To: clue@ietf.org
Subject: [clue] Kick-off Item = 2: Layout, composition, switching = discussion

 

This is = following up on the major issues list from the interim meeting in = Andover.

Issues for = discussion:

1.       = Item 5 video composition = (discussion kicked off by Stephan) is a part of this.  But more = generally, the same sort of issue applies to other media types, not just = video.

a.       = For example, should a = provider that mixes audio be able to indicate to the consumer which = audio sources are in the mix?

b.      = Proposal – = the more general case should be consistent with the outcome of the Item = 5 discussio

 

2.       = Should a provider that = mixes or composes other media captures/streams into a new stream be able = to indicate some information about the algorithm it uses to choose which = other captures/streams to mix?

a.       = Proposal – no, CLUE = does not need this.

3.       = Should a provider that = mixes or composes media be able to allow the consumer to make a choice = about which other captures/streams are included in the = mix?

a.       = This should be covered by = Major Issue Item 3 source selection – (discussion to be kicked off = by Jonathan)

4.       = Do we need support in = CLUE for allowing a media consumer to request the provider to compose or = mix particular media sources into a new media stream, using a particular = algorithm?

a.       = Proposal – no, CLUE = does not need this.

b.      = But if something like = item 5 idea is accepted, then maybe a provider can offer a few = alternatives and a consumer can choose among them

 

Mark = Duckworth

 

= --Boundary_(ID_kjzvpip2BmMICr+hgNdQ+w)-- From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Wed Nov 2 12:36:00 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D33601F0C9F for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 12:36:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.166 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.166 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6ceJAohfJpcJ for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 12:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smail3.alcatel.fr (smail3.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2678B1F0C44 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 12:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB01.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB01.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.61]) by smail3.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id pA2JZo60005399 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 2 Nov 2011 20:35:50 +0100 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.48]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB01.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.61]) with mapi; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 20:35:50 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: Paul Witty , "clue@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 20:35:49 +0100 Thread-Topic: [clue] New draft on Transport Options for Clue Thread-Index: AcyZW5JTiP/bKIpJRU2v1iGtz3jA+wAOfP2g Message-ID: References: <4EB13875.6090503@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4EB13875.6090503@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.69 on 155.132.188.83 Subject: Re: [clue] New draft on Transport Options for Clue X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 19:36:00 -0000 The charter for bfcpbis does not propose to remove the capability for TCP. = Rather it is adding an option for UDP. There are perfectly valid usages that specify only the support of TCP, and = are specifying that TCP should work through NATs. I'd also note there are other TCP usages defined in this area. Look at MSRP= and also at the mediactrl control channel framework. Regards Keith ________________________________________ From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pau= l Witty Sent: 02 November 2011 12:33 To: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] New draft on Transport Options for Clue Option 3: CLUE control channel on the media plane over TCP -- Tried for BFCP - abandoned in favour of UDP --=20 Paul From Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com Wed Nov 2 13:42:19 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C07111E80BC for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 13:42:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xwjhaZsgo2NV for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 13:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crpehubprd02.polycom.com (crpehubprd01.polycom.com [140.242.64.158]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C121711E80B7 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 13:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Crpmboxprd01.polycom.com ([fe80::e001:c7b0:91a1:9443]) by crpehubprd02.polycom.com ([fe80::5efe:10.236.0.154%12]) with mapi; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 13:42:10 -0700 From: "Duckworth, Mark" To: "clue@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 13:42:08 -0700 Thread-Topic: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed pictures Thread-Index: AcyPWz9uFQkj7TPxRPWw4vG1W8HrTgKQsN3A Message-ID: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D76E@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D76ECRPMBOXPRD01pol_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed pictures X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 20:42:19 -0000 --_000_44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D76ECRPMBOXPRD01pol_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stephan, It seems to me the cases where this scheme might be useful are limited and = not easily generalizable. The mechanism you propose seems complicated for = the limited usefulness. Wouldn't it be better to work towards a way for th= e provider to be able to send the streams the consumer really wants, rather= than composing and then decomposing? If the composite image is constructed such that any of the individual image= s are cropped or obscured, for example with a picture-in-picture layout, I = think your idea of decomposing will not work well. If the MCU is cropping an image for composition, I'm not sure it will be ab= le to provide accurate area of capture coordinates for the cropped image. = It won't be the same as the coordinates coming from the original provider. Mark From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ste= phan Wenger Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 3:05 PM To: Michael Hammer Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed pictures Hi Mike, From: Michael Hammer > That sort of goal seems reasonable. That would require that the mixing or = aggregation process leaves the feed 1 and 2 segregated within the feed 3. = I imagine that some mixers might not do that, but it would provide flexibil= ity. So, you might need a de-composable flag in addition to distinguish if= that can be done. Anyway, that slides into the design. The use case I was referring to is that the MCU performs video mixing in th= e traditional way MCUs perform tiling (that is: reconstruction of the video= streams, aggregation on the pixel level, encoding). In other words, feed = 3 is a single RTP stream containing a single coded video stream. To decomp= ose that stream, you need spatial information in the renderer domain where = each image is located in the tiled composed image. That is what I want to = add, in addition to the "decomposable" flag you are suggesting (which would= simply be an indication that the spatial information is present for this R= TP stream). Stephan From: Michael Hammer > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:14:27 -0400 To: Stephan Wenger > Cc: "clue@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed pictures Stephan, What I am getting from this description is that you want the aggregated fee= d composed of original feeds 1 and 2 to have sufficient data about the orig= inal feeds to enable an output site to do a de-aggregation of feed 3 back i= nto its components and to put on available displays as desired. That sort of goal seems reasonable. That would require that the mixing or = aggregation process leaves the feed 1 and 2 segregated within the feed 3. = I imagine that some mixers might not do that, but it would provide flexibil= ity. So, you might need a de-composable flag in addition to distinguish if= that can be done. Anyway, that slides into the design. Mike On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:35 PM, Stephan Wenger > wrote: Mike, Not sure this is going through to the list, due to the size of the attachme= nt. But let's try. Attached is a little hand-drawing that hopefully helps understanding what I= am shooting for. Consider a three way conference. The two "capturing" rooms, depicted on th= e left side, have two cameras each, capturing scenes one and two (for the f= irst room), and four and five (for the second room), respectively. The cap= tured content is encoded by encoders marked "E" to create RTP streams 1, 2,= 4, and 5. RTP streams 1 and 2 (from the first room) terminate an an MCU, which compos= es them into a composed picture 3, encoded into RTP stream 3. The composed= picture contains 1 and 2 side-by-side, plus grey bars on top and bottom. The monitors of the receiving third endpoint are shown on the right side. = Streams 4 and 5 go straight to the two decoders of the main projection wall= . Stream 3 (created by the MCU) goes through a side decoder to a third mon= itor (could be the monitors that many telepresence rooms have for each part= icipant, a monitor normally dedicated for shared content, what not). This = monitor shows the composed image. The CLUE architecture allows perfectly well to describe the capture propert= ies of streams 4 and 5. However, at present, the MCU hides the capture pro= perties of streams 1 and 2. Similarly, the MCU hides the render properties= of the decoder/display of stream 3. Accordingly, the geographic parameter= s of captures 1 and 2 are not known at decoder 3, and, if that decoder woul= d want to do something a bit more sophisticated than just decoding and disp= laying on the screen, it couldn't because it lacks info. One of this "more sophisticated" things could, for example be as follows. = Suppose the endpoint capturing 4 and 5 drops out of the call. The video wa= ll of the rendering endpoint goes blank. It would be desirable if the info= from 1 and 2 would be rendered on the video wall instead of the side scree= n. One sensible way to do that would be that the stream 3 is feed into bot= h decoders responsible for the video wall, but "cut out" and upscale the co= ntent from the composed picture created by the MCU, before rendering. (The= re may be technical reasons for the presence of the MCU beyond the fact tha= t there are only three decoders at the receiving side). However, that's no= t possible as the nature of stream 3 (being composed form 1 and 2) is not v= isible at the rendering endpoint. My proposal is to add information related to the captures inside a composed= stream (beyond that one flag that says the stream is composed). Clearer? Stephan From: Michael Hammer > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 13:03:07 -0400 To: Stephan Wenger > Cc: "clue@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed pictures Stephan, You use monitor as both input and output device. I hope that is not embedd= ed in the scheme. The rest of this email seems to focus only on input definitions as it proba= bly should. Don't understand the comment about 3-D followed by coordinates in 3-D. It = seems like 3-D is fundamental. Do I understand correctly that the camera coordinates define the location o= f the lense, while the bitstream is abstraction of the pixel layout for som= e abstraction (via ray-tracing?) of a window? Or is the camera coordinates defining some virtual window in space that thr= ough some changes in focal length could be a closeup and those farther from= the camera and narrower field of view versus wider angel and closer to the= lense with greater field of view? When talking about spatial things, perhaps a picture would help save a thou= sand words. Also, I would think that what a renderer or MCU would do could be a second = discussion once the capture scheme is better understood. (Understand that = the impacts of those might drive some iterations on the basic scheme.) Mike On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 11:02 PM, Stephan Wenger > wrote: Hi, Here is the kickoff message as agreed in our F2F. We are in the process of defining a mechanism that allows us to tag in room= "coordinates" of captures to RTP streams. In its most trivial incarnation= , that would allow us to assign the decoded RTP streams to devices such as = individual monitors. RTP comes from system 1, camera coordinates x, y, z, upper right x, = y, z, lower left x, y, z RTP comes from system 1, camera coordinates (something else) Note that we probably need a third and even a fourth point for faithfully s= pecifying a capture in 3D space, but that's not the subject of this email, = so don't beat me up on it right now. As for the capabilities of a renderer (not defined in the framework yet), i= t should be clear that a monitor can trivially display more than one decode= d RTP stream. Insofar, the mapping should be per part of a virtual display= wall (or however you want to call it), and not per physical screen. I wou= ld hope that this is uncontroversial. Things become more tricky when there is a video mixing MCU in the picture, = or when an endpoint creates a single RTP stream that contains information f= rom multiple camera devices (through tiling, picture-in-picture). Here, we= cannot meaningfully tag the a single geographic information to a single RT= P stream simply because the multiple video sequences were mixed at the samp= le level, and the encoder didn't have a clue that it is actually encoding d= ata stemming from more than one camera. However, the endpoint system (or t= he MCU) know the geographic metadata associated with the composed picture. = So what I'm proposing is that we allow a single RTP stream to have more th= an one geometric information about the capture involved. For video, one wo= uld probably have to associate regions of the reconstructed video stream (i= n the spatial dimension) with capture geographic information as currently p= roposed in the framework. Example: a sending endpoint creating ONE RTP stream which includes TWO capt= ures, tiled horizontally RTP { bitstream coordinates x=3D0 to 959, y=3D0, to 1080 , comes from system = 1, camera coordinates x, y, z, x, y,z x, y, z bitstream coordinates x=3D960 to 1919, y=3D0 to 1080, comes from system= 1, camera coordinates (something else) } Architecturally, this system would best need to be recursive, as it ought t= o be possible to throw an already composed image from MCU1 at the input of = MCU2, which scales it down and composes it with other images to other ports= . Clear enough? Thanks, Stephan _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue --_000_44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D76ECRPMBOXPRD01pol_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Stepha= n,

 

It seems to me the cases where this scheme= might be useful are limited and not easily generalizable.  The mechan= ism you propose seems complicated for the limited usefulness.  Wouldn&= #8217;t it be better to work towards a way for the provider to be able to s= end the streams the consumer really wants, rather than composing and then d= ecomposing?

 

If the composite image is constru= cted such that any of the individual images are cropped or obscured, for ex= ample with a picture-in-picture layout, I think your idea of decomposing wi= ll not work well.

&nb= sp;

If the MCU is cropping an i= mage for composition, I’m not sure it will be able to provide accurat= e area of capture coordinates for the cropped image.  It won’t b= e the same as the coordinates coming from the original provider.=

 

Mark

<= o:p> 

 

From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailt= o:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephan Wenger
Sent:= Thursday, October 20, 2011 3:05 PM
To: Michael Hammer
Cc:<= /b> clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: descriptio= n of composed pictures

 

Hi Mike,

 

<= /div>

From: = Michael Hammer <mphmmr@gmail.com>

That sort of goal seems reaso= nable.  That would require that the mixing or aggregation process leav= es the feed 1 and 2 segregated within the feed 3.  I imagine that some= mixers might not do that, but it would provide flexibility.  So, you = might need a de-composable flag in addition to distinguish if that can be d= one.  Anyway, that slides into the design.

=

 

The use case I was referring to is that t= he MCU performs video mixing in the traditional way MCUs perform tiling (th= at is: reconstruction of the video streams, aggregation on the pixel level,= encoding).  In other words, feed 3 is a single RTP stream containing = a single coded video stream.  To decompose that stream, you need spati= al information in the renderer domain where each image is located in the ti= led composed image.  That is what I want to add, in addition to the &q= uot;decomposable" flag you are suggesting (which would simply be an in= dication that the spatial information is present for this RTP stream).=

 

Stephan

 

From: Michael Hammer <mphmmr@gmail.com>
Date: = Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:14:27 -0400
To: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
Cc: "clue@ietf.org" <clue@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off I= tem 5: description of composed pictures

 

Stephan,

=  

What = I am getting from this description is that you want the aggregated feed com= posed of original feeds 1 and 2 to have sufficient data about the original = feeds to enable an output site to do a de-aggregation of feed 3 back into i= ts components and to put on available displays as desired.

 

That sort of goal seems reasonable.  T= hat would require that the mixing or aggregation process leaves the feed 1 = and 2 segregated within the feed 3.  I imagine that some mixers might = not do that, but it would provide flexibility.  So, you might need a d= e-composable flag in addition to distinguish if that can be done.  Any= way, that slides into the design.

 

Mike

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:35 PM, Stephan Wenger = <stewe@stewe.org> wrote:<= /o:p>

Mike,=

 

=

Not sure this is going through to the list, = due to the size of the attachment.  But let's try.

 

Attached is a little hand-drawing that hopeful= ly helps understanding what I am shooting for.

<= div>

Consider a three way conference.  The tw= o "capturing" rooms, depicted on the left side, have two cameras = each, capturing scenes one and two (for the first room), and four and five = (for the second room), respectively.  The captured content is encoded = by encoders marked "E" to create RTP streams 1, 2, 4, and 5.=

RTP streams 1 and 2 (= from the first room) terminate an an MCU, which composes them into a compos= ed picture 3, encoded into RTP stream 3.  The composed picture contain= s 1 and 2 side-by-side, plus grey bars on top and bottom.  =

The monitors of the receivi= ng third endpoint are shown on the right side.  Streams 4 and 5 go str= aight to the two decoders of the main projection wall.  Stream 3 (crea= ted by the MCU) goes through a side decoder to a third monitor (could be th= e monitors that many telepresence rooms have for each participant, a monito= r normally dedicated for shared content, what not).  This monitor show= s the composed image.

=  

The C= LUE architecture allows perfectly well to describe the capture properties o= f streams 4 and 5.  However, at present, the MCU hides the capture pro= perties of streams 1 and 2.  Similarly, the MCU hides the render prope= rties of the decoder/display of stream 3.  Accordingly, the geographic= parameters of captures 1 and 2 are not known at decoder 3, and, if that de= coder would want to do something a bit more sophisticated than just decodin= g and displaying on the screen, it couldn't because it lacks info.

 <= /p>

One of this "more sophisticate= d" things could, for example be as follows.  Suppose the endpoint= capturing 4 and 5 drops out of the call.  The video wall of the rende= ring endpoint goes blank.  It would be desirable if the info from 1 an= d 2 would be rendered on the video wall instead of the side screen.  O= ne sensible way to do that would be that the stream 3 is feed into both dec= oders responsible for the video wall, but "cut out" and upscale t= he content from the composed picture created by the MCU, before rendering. =  (There may be technical reasons for the presence of the MCU beyond th= e fact that there are only three decoders at the receiving side).  How= ever, that's not possible as the nature of stream 3 (being composed form 1 = and 2) is not visible at the rendering endpoint.

 

My proposal is to add information related to the capt= ures inside a composed stream (beyond that one flag that says the stream is= composed).

=  

Clearer?

 

Stephan    <= /span>

 

=

 

 

 

 

From: Michae= l Hammer <mphmmr@g= mail.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 13:03:07 -0400
To: = Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
Cc: "clue@ietf.org" <clue@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [clue= ] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed pictures

 

Stephan,

 

You use monitor as both input and output device.  I = hope that is not embedded in the scheme.

The rest of this email seems to focus only on input= definitions as it probably should.

 

Don't understand the comment about 3-D followed by coordinates in = 3-D.  It seems like 3-D is fundamental.

 

Do I understand correctly that the camera coordinates def= ine the location of the lense, while the bitstream is abstraction of the pi= xel layout for some abstraction (via ray-tracing?) of a window?<= /span>

 

=

Or is the camera coordinates defining = some virtual window in space that through some changes in focal length coul= d be a closeup and those farther from the camera and narrower field of view= versus wider angel and closer to the lense with greater field of view?

 

When talking about spatial thi= ngs, perhaps a picture would help save a thousand words.<= /p>

 

<= div>

Also, I would think that what a renderer= or MCU would do could be a second discussion once the capture scheme = is better understood.  (Understand that the impacts of those might dri= ve some iterations on the basic scheme.)

 

Mike

On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 11:02 PM, Stephan = Wenger <stewe@stewe= .org> wrote:

Hi,

 =

Here is the kickoff m= essage as agreed in our F2F.

 

We are in the process of defining a mechanism that allows us to tag in ro= om "coordinates" of captures to RTP streams.  In its most tr= ivial incarnation, that would allow us to assign the decoded RTP streams to= devices such as individual monitors.

 

RTP <id#1> comes from system 1, camera coordinates x, y, z= , upper right x, y, z, lower left x, y, z 

=

RTP <id#2> comes from system 1, camera= coordinates (something else)

 

Note that we probably need a third and even a fourth point for faithfull= y specifying a capture in 3D space, but that's not the subject of this emai= l, so don't beat me up on it right now. 

 

As for the capabilities of a renderer (not defined in th= e framework yet), it should be clear that a monitor can trivially display m= ore than one decoded RTP stream.  Insofar, the mapping should be per p= art of a virtual display wall (or however you want to call it), and not per= physical screen.  I would hope that this is uncontroversial.

 <= /p>

Things become more tricky when ther= e is a video mixing MCU in the picture, or when an endpoint creates a singl= e RTP stream that contains information from multiple camera devices (throug= h tiling, picture-in-picture).  Here, we cannot meaningfully tag the a= single geographic information to a single RTP stream simply because the mu= ltiple video sequences were mixed at the sample level, and the encoder didn= 't have a clue that it is actually encoding data stemming from more than on= e camera.  However, the endpoint system (or the MCU) know the geograph= ic metadata associated with the composed picture.  So what I'm proposi= ng is that we allow a single RTP stream to have more than one geometric inf= ormation about the capture involved.  For video, one would probably ha= ve to associate regions of the reconstructed video stream (in the spatial d= imension) with capture geographic information as currently proposed in the = framework.

&= nbsp;

Example: a sendi= ng endpoint creating ONE RTP stream which includes TWO captures, tiled hori= zontally

&= nbsp;

RTP <id#2>= {

    = bitstream coordinates x=3D0 to 959, y=3D0, to 1080 , comes from system 1, c= amera coordinates x, y, z, x, y,z x, y, z

<= p class=3DMsoNormal>    bitstream coordinates x=3D960 to 191= 9, y=3D0 to 1080, comes from system 1, camera coordinates (something else)&= nbsp;

}

 

Architecturally, this system would b= est need to be recursive, as it ought to be possible to throw an already co= mposed image from MCU1 at the input of MCU2, which scales it down and compo= ses it with other images to other ports.

 

Clear enough?

 

Thanks,

Stepha= n

 


_______________________________________________
clue mailing = list
clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>
_______________= ________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clu= e



= --_000_44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D76ECRPMBOXPRD01pol_-- From Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com Wed Nov 2 14:42:04 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21B351F0C63 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 14:42:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j2mSbK+fC5ET for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 14:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crpehubprd02.polycom.com (crpehubprd01.polycom.com [140.242.64.158]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AA911F0C59 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 14:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Crpmboxprd01.polycom.com ([fe80::e001:c7b0:91a1:9443]) by crpehubprd02.polycom.com ([fe80::5efe:10.236.0.154%12]) with mapi; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 14:41:57 -0700 From: "Duckworth, Mark" To: "clue@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 14:41:55 -0700 Thread-Topic: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion Thread-Index: AcyUvVrMDMQ5UufGQp+yMcU2E0ehsQANDRggAPInLDAAK0wloAAPgQGw Message-ID: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D7D9@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> References: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE42473E@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> <0a0301cc94f3$19359ed0$4ba0dc70$%roni@huawei.com> <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D0AA@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> <033301cc9971$82402da0$86c088e0$%roni@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <033301cc9971$82402da0$86c088e0$%roni@huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D7D9CRPMBOXPRD01pol_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 21:42:04 -0000 --_000_44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D7D9CRPMBOXPRD01pol_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Roni, Thanks for the clarifications. For identifying what is in a mixed or composed media stream, I agree it mak= es sense to use the existing SSRC and CSRC mechanism rather than something = new. I think you are saying you want to define a few enumerated "mixing policies= " and "mixing modes" (switching is a subset of mixing) that will cover som= e small number of useful cases, is that right? But not try to be all-inclu= sive with a never-ending list of possibilities? What do you mean by "The protocol from the consumer to provider can be a se= cond stage"? Do you mean leave that for a possible future extension? Mark From: Roni Even [mailto:Even.roni@huawei.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 11:10 AM To: Duckworth, Mark; clue@ietf.org Subject: RE: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discuss= ion Hi Mark, The reason I shorted the list is because if we want item 4 support than ite= m 2 is needed to let the consumer know what algorithms can be used. As for item 1 I do not understand why we are even discussing it. In current= RTP you know the SSRCs of the mixed sources as they are part of CSRC, so f= or CLUE we need to verify that this is not broken. The change in the mix sh= ould be reflected in RTCP but we will need the association to the CLUE info= rmation. My view is that we need to support both switching and mixing (so switching= here is a case of mixing). The issue of conference-wide mode or per user i= s application or implementation specific. The provider can decide how to re= spond to a request based on its capabilities and policies. As for enumerating the cases. There is more than one dimension. I think th= at we can look at general policy (site switch, segment switch), per receive= stream (Voice activated, round robin). The usage can be automated, so he c= onsumer asks for the mode and the actual content is decided by the producer= based on the mode (Example segment switch, stream 1 voice activated, strea= m 2 round robin- this will send in stream 1 the current speaker and in stre= am 2 go through the rest of the streams (all rooms and all cameras) in roun= d robin). If the consumer will want to build a specific mix he should be able to ask = for a specific streams for example in the previous example the consumer can= ask also for a third stream that will have the Manager TP system middle ca= mera. I think that it will be good in the first stage to allow the producer to pr= ovide the information about the modes (segment switch, site switch, voice a= ctivate,..) and to allow the consumer to identify who is in the mix/switch.= The protocol from the consumer to provider can be a second stage Roni From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Duc= kworth, Mark Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 7:35 PM To: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discuss= ion Hi Roni, The two topics you listed are items 3 and 4 from my message. I think your item 1 and my item 3 are about source selection, which needs a= discussion to include selecting sources for a mix, and also selecting sour= ces a consumer wants to receive individually (not part of a mix). Jonathan= 's presentation from the Andover meeting (13-CLUE-Interim-Sources.ppt) rais= ed some good points about this. Do you agree this all falls under the same= topic? I think your item 2 and my item 4 are the same topic. Are you talking abou= t switching streams, or composing streams, or both? Do you see these switc= hing modes as something a particular consumer can request from a provider, = that will not impact other consumers? Or is it more like a conference-wide = mode? (this gets into Paul's point as well). My concern about this is I don't see how to bound it. Are you suggesting w= e should define a few specific composing/switching modes that a provider ca= n enumerate, and a way for a consumer to choose one? Mark From: Roni Even [mailto:Even.roni@huawei.com] Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 5:55 PM To: Duckworth, Mark; clue@ietf.org Subject: RE: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discuss= ion Hi Mark, I understand that you have two topics 1. Allowing the consumer to select specific media streams for a mix (= for example, left camera from room 1, middle camera from room 2 and left ca= mera from room 3) which I think should be possible. This will require infor= mation and protocol that will allow this functionality. 2. Allowing the provider to specify the mixture algorithm and for th= e consumer to ask for a specific one. I think that we need at least to enab= le the provider and consumer to specify or request site switch or segment s= witch mode. Roni From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Duc= kworth, Mark Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 5:30 PM To: clue@ietf.org Subject: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion This is following up on the major issues list from the interim meeting in A= ndover. Issues for discussion: 1. Item 5 video composition (discussion kicked off by Stephan) is a p= art of this. But more generally, the same sort of issue applies to other m= edia types, not just video. a. For example, should a provider that mixes audio be able to indicat= e to the consumer which audio sources are in the mix? b. Proposal - the more general case should be consistent with the outc= ome of the Item 5 discussio 2. Should a provider that mixes or composes other media captures/stre= ams into a new stream be able to indicate some information about the algori= thm it uses to choose which other captures/streams to mix? a. Proposal - no, CLUE does not need this. 3. Should a provider that mixes or composes media be able to allow th= e consumer to make a choice about which other captures/streams are included= in the mix? a. This should be covered by Major Issue Item 3 source selection - (d= iscussion to be kicked off by Jonathan) 4. Do we need support in CLUE for allowing a media consumer to reques= t the provider to compose or mix particular media sources into a new media = stream, using a particular algorithm? a. Proposal - no, CLUE does not need this. b. But if something like item 5 idea is accepted, then maybe a provide= r can offer a few alternatives and a consumer can choose among them Mark Duckworth --_000_44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D7D9CRPMBOXPRD01pol_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Roni,

 

Thanks for the clarifications.

 

For identifying wha= t is in a mixed or composed media stream, I agree it makes sense to use the= existing SSRC and CSRC mechanism rather than something new.

 =

I think you a= re saying you want to define a few enumerated “mixing policies”= and  “mixing modes” (switching is a subset of mixing) tha= t will cover some small number of useful cases, is that right?  But no= t try to be all-inclusive with a never-ending list of possibilities?

&nbs= p;

What = do you mean by “The protocol fro= m the consumer to provider can be a second stage”?  Do you mean leave that for a possible future exten= sion?

 

Mark

 

 

From= : Roni Even [mailto:Even.roni@huawei.com]
Sent: Wednesday, No= vember 02, 2011 11:10 AM
To: Duckworth, Mark; clue@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching di= scussion

 <= /o:p>

Hi Mark,

The reaso= n I shorted the list is because if we want item 4 support than item 2 is ne= eded to let the consumer know what algorithms can be used.

As for item 1 I do= not understand why we are even discussing it. In current RTP you know the = SSRCs of the mixed sources as they are part of CSRC, so for CLUE we need to= verify that this is not broken. The change in the mix should be reflected = in RTCP but we will need the association to the CLUE information.

 <= /o:p>

My view = is that we need to support  both switching and mixing (so switching he= re is a case of mixing). The issue of conference-wide mode or per user is a= pplication or implementation specific. The provider can decide how to respo= nd to a request based on its capabilities and policies.

 

As for enumerating= the cases.  There is more than one dimension. I think that we can loo= k at general policy (site switch, segment switch), per receive stream (Voic= e activated, round robin). The usage can be automated, so he consumer asks = for the mode and the actual content is decided by the producer based on the= mode (Example segment switch, stream 1 voice activated, stream 2 round rob= in- this will send in stream 1 the current speaker and in stream 2 go throu= gh the rest of the streams (all rooms and all cameras) in round robin).

If the= consumer will want to build a specific mix he should be able to ask for a = specific streams for example in the previous example the consumer can ask a= lso for a third stream that will have the Manager TP system middle camera.<= o:p>

 

I think that it will be good in the first stage to allow the producer to p= rovide the information about the modes (segment switch, site switch, voice = activate,..) and to allow the consumer to identify who is in the mix/switch= . The protocol from the consumer to provider can be a second stage

Roni

&nbs= p;

=  

<= o:p> 

From: cl= ue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Duck= worth, Mark
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 7:35 PM
To: clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, comp= osition, switching discussion

 

Hi Roni,

 

The two topics you listed are items 3 and 4 from my message= .

<= o:p> 

I think your item 1 and my item 3 are about source selection, which need= s a discussion to include selecting sources for a mix, and also selecting s= ources a consumer wants to receive individually (not part of a mix).  = Jonathan’s presentation from the Andover meeting (13-CLUE-Interim-Sou= rces.ppt) raised some good points about this.  Do you agree this all f= alls under the same topic?

 

I think your item 2 and my item 4 are the same = topic.  Are you talking about switching streams, or composing streams,= or both?  Do you see these switching modes as something a particular = consumer can request from a provider, that will not impact other consumers?= Or is it more like a conference-wide mode? (this gets into Paul’s po= int as well).

My concern about this is I don’t see how to bound it. = ; Are you suggesting we should define a few specific composing/switching mo= des that a provider can enumerate, and a way for a consumer to choose one?<= o:p>

 

Mark

 

 

From: R= oni Even [mailto:Even.roni@huawei.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 2= 7, 2011 5:55 PM
To: Duckworth, Mark; clue@ietf.org
Subject:= RE: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion<= o:p>

 

=

Hi Mark,

I understand that = you have two topics

 

<= span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>1.       Allowing the consu= mer to select specific media streams for a mix (for example, left camera fr= om room 1, middle camera from room 2 and left camera from room 3) which I t= hink should be possible. This will require information and protocol that wi= ll allow this functionality.

2.       Allowing the pro= vider  to specify the mixture algorithm and for the consumer to ask fo= r a specific one. I think that we need at least to enable the provider and = consumer to specify or request site switch or segment switch mode.

 

Roni

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal>From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org= ] On Behalf Of Duckworth, Mark
Sent: Thursday, October 27,= 2011 5:30 PM
To: clue@ietf.org
Subject: [clue] Kick-of= f Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion

 

Th= is is following up on the major issues list from the interim meeting in And= over.

Issues for discussion:<= /p>

1.       Item 5 video composition (discussion kicked off by Step= han) is a part of this.  But more generally, the same sort of issue ap= plies to other media types, not just video.

a.       For example, should a provider that mixes audio be able= to indicate to the consumer which audio sources are in the mix?=

b.      Pro= posal – the more general case should be consistent with the outcome o= f the Item 5 discussio

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> <= /p>

2.       Should a provider that mixes or composes other media ca= ptures/streams into a new stream be able to indicate some information about= the algorithm it uses to choose which other captures/streams to mix?<= /o:p>

a.   = ;    Proposal – no, CLUE does = not need this.

3.  &nb= sp;    Should a provider that mixes = or composes media be able to allow the consumer to make a choice about whic= h other captures/streams are included in the mix?

a.       = This should be covered by Major Issue Item 3 source= selection – (discussion to be kicked off by Jonathan)

=

4.       = Do we need support in CLUE for allowing a media consumer t= o request the provider to compose or mix particular media sources into a ne= w media stream, using a particular algorithm?

a.       Proposal – no, CLUE does not need this.

b.   &nb= sp;  But if something like item 5 idea is acce= pted, then maybe a provider can offer a few alternatives and a consumer can= choose among them

 

=

Mark Duckworth

 

= --_000_44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D7D9CRPMBOXPRD01pol_-- From espeberg@cisco.com Wed Nov 2 15:05:54 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B428811E80E7 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 15:05:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 751eDrVzo3yF for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 15:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C533511E80BE for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 15:05:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=espeberg@cisco.com; l=1378; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1320271553; x=1321481153; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:in-reply-to:references:from:to; bh=/MVUFTWYFMCB6A2R+2YX5yi8AqO2p4xZe/tIyoVbJGk=; b=eMHmGj8IDJj8ZjTpTVRowLWewCIQpY1FtxenaYJZndxduqwBUE4FuErn ZA2QxAjGtKW9oEnELjz39PInhMPnjf1bLHQDYV5LmFyLEFk/fwzYE+7gb heXaGzpgmT5CiFAd4LVwY+lNMMHaniBMi7A+FHIqfMgswOgOZ6PKnSwCP U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EANS9sU6Q/khN/2dsb2JhbABEqXSBBYFyAQEBBAEBAQ8BHQo0FwQCAQgRBAEBCwYXAQYBJh8JCAEBBAESCBqHaJY+AZ54BIgvYQSZTows X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,446,1315180800"; d="scan'208";a="59070414" Received: from ams-core-4.cisco.com ([144.254.72.77]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Nov 2011 22:05:52 +0000 Received: from xbh-ams-101.cisco.com (xbh-ams-101.cisco.com [144.254.74.71]) by ams-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pA2M5qM7003644; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 22:05:52 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-214.cisco.com ([144.254.75.25]) by xbh-ams-101.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 2 Nov 2011 23:05:52 +0100 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 23:04:01 +0100 Message-ID: <92DF9533227FC14F946C7321074B8C9EB2EC30@XMB-AMS-214.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clue] New draft on Transport Options for Clue Thread-Index: AcyZW5JTiP/bKIpJRU2v1iGtz3jA+wAOfP2gAAOribA= References: <4EB13875.6090503@cisco.com> From: "Espen Berger (espeberg)" To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" , "Paul Witty (pauwitty)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Nov 2011 22:05:52.0680 (UTC) FILETIME=[964A2280:01CC99AB] Subject: Re: [clue] New draft on Transport Options for Clue X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 22:05:54 -0000 The protocol design will be more straight forward if we could assume that the transport had the features of being in-order, reliable and allowed large messages (e.g. 20+kb XML messages).=20 Regards=20 -Espen=20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of DRAGE, Keith (Keith) Sent: 2. november 2011 20:36 To: Paul Witty (pauwitty); clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] New draft on Transport Options for Clue The charter for bfcpbis does not propose to remove the capability for TCP. Rather it is adding an option for UDP. There are perfectly valid usages that specify only the support of TCP, and are specifying that TCP should work through NATs. I'd also note there are other TCP usages defined in this area. Look at MSRP and also at the mediactrl control channel framework. Regards Keith ________________________________________ From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Paul Witty Sent: 02 November 2011 12:33 To: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] New draft on Transport Options for Clue Option 3: CLUE control channel on the media plane over TCP -- Tried for BFCP - abandoned in favour of UDP --=20 Paul _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From stewe@stewe.org Wed Nov 2 16:15:19 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF31911E8091 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 16:15:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.66 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.66 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.458, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8Chy8Xy2m7r6 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 16:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stewe.org (stewe.org [85.214.122.234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 366C11F0C36 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 16:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.63] (unverified [71.202.147.60]) by stewe.org (SurgeMail 3.9e) with ESMTP id 55891-1743317 for multiple; Thu, 03 Nov 2011 00:15:10 +0100 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.13.0.110805 Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:14:33 -0700 From: Stephan Wenger To: "Duckworth, Mark" , "clue@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed pictures In-Reply-To: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D76E@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3403095306_5889609" X-Originating-IP: 71.202.147.60 X-Authenticated-User: stewe@stewe.org X-ORBS-Stamp: Your IP (71.202.147.60) was found in the spamhaus database. http://www.spamhaus.net Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed pictures X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 23:15:20 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3403095306_5889609 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mark, Please see inline. Stephan From: "Duckworth, Mark" Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 13:42:08 -0700 To: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed pictures Hi Stephan, =20 It seems to me the cases where this scheme might be useful are limited and not easily generalizable. The mechanism you propose seems complicated for the limited usefulness. Wouldn=B9t it be better to work towards a way for th= e provider to be able to send the streams the consumer really wants, rather than composing and then decomposing? Oh, absolutely. In fact, this is what our systems do. However, occasionally we get stuck with legacy equipment, connected to your system over a gateway. Our gateway (or endpoint) system has no standardized way t= o decompose a composed picture, because this critical piece of metainfo is missing. =20 If the composite image is constructed such that any of the individual image= s are cropped or obscured, for example with a picture-in-picture layout, I think your idea of decomposing will not work well. True. =20 If the MCU is cropping an image for composition, I=B9m not sure it will be able to provide accurate area of capture coordinates for the cropped image. It won=B9t be the same as the coordinates coming from the original provider. Also true, though, in this case, the MCU should be able to intercept the CLUE messages and modify them appropriately. Or stop cropping. I don't think that technical issues are overly difficult to overcome. Certainly not the two you mentioned. The question is, should we address this (real-world) use case now, later, or never. My thinking is that most of the building blocks to describe spatial relationships are already in place; why not extend them to cover this use case now? As the very minimum= , let's flesh out a framework (sic!) for a solution for the use case, and mak= e sure that the overall framework would architecturally allow for it. Stephan =20 Mark =20 =20 From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephan Wenger Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 3:05 PM To: Michael Hammer Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed pictures =20 Hi Mike, =20 >=20 > From: Michael Hammer >=20 > That sort of goal seems reasonable. That would require that the mixing o= r > aggregation process leaves the feed 1 and 2 segregated within the feed 3.= I > imagine that some mixers might not do that, but it would provide flexibil= ity. > So, you might need a de-composable flag in addition to distinguish if tha= t can > be done. Anyway, that slides into the design. =20 The use case I was referring to is that the MCU performs video mixing in th= e traditional way MCUs perform tiling (that is: reconstruction of the video streams, aggregation on the pixel level, encoding). In other words, feed 3 is a single RTP stream containing a single coded video stream. To decompos= e that stream, you need spatial information in the renderer domain where each image is located in the tiled composed image. That is what I want to add, in addition to the "decomposable" flag you are suggesting (which would simply be an indication that the spatial information is present for this RT= P stream). =20 Stephan =20 From: Michael Hammer Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:14:27 -0400 To: Stephan Wenger Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed pictures =20 Stephan, =20 What I am getting from this description is that you want the aggregated fee= d composed of original feeds 1 and 2 to have sufficient data about the original feeds to enable an output site to do a de-aggregation of feed 3 back into its components and to put on available displays as desired. =20 That sort of goal seems reasonable. That would require that the mixing or aggregation process leaves the feed 1 and 2 segregated within the feed 3. = I imagine that some mixers might not do that, but it would provide flexibility. So, you might need a de-composable flag in addition to distinguish if that can be done. Anyway, that slides into the design. =20 Mike On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:35 PM, Stephan Wenger wrote: Mike, =20 Not sure this is going through to the list, due to the size of the attachment. But let's try. =20 Attached is a little hand-drawing that hopefully helps understanding what I am shooting for. Consider a three way conference. The two "capturing" rooms, depicted on th= e left side, have two cameras each, capturing scenes one and two (for the first room), and four and five (for the second room), respectively. The captured content is encoded by encoders marked "E" to create RTP streams 1, 2, 4, and 5. RTP streams 1 and 2 (from the first room) terminate an an MCU, which composes them into a composed picture 3, encoded into RTP stream 3. The composed picture contains 1 and 2 side-by-side, plus grey bars on top and bottom. =20 The monitors of the receiving third endpoint are shown on the right side. Streams 4 and 5 go straight to the two decoders of the main projection wall= . Stream 3 (created by the MCU) goes through a side decoder to a third monito= r (could be the monitors that many telepresence rooms have for each participant, a monitor normally dedicated for shared content, what not). This monitor shows the composed image. =20 The CLUE architecture allows perfectly well to describe the capture properties of streams 4 and 5. However, at present, the MCU hides the capture properties of streams 1 and 2. Similarly, the MCU hides the render properties of the decoder/display of stream 3. Accordingly, the geographic parameters of captures 1 and 2 are not known at decoder 3, and, if that decoder would want to do something a bit more sophisticated than just decoding and displaying on the screen, it couldn't because it lacks info. =20 One of this "more sophisticated" things could, for example be as follows. Suppose the endpoint capturing 4 and 5 drops out of the call. The video wall of the rendering endpoint goes blank. It would be desirable if the info from 1 and 2 would be rendered on the video wall instead of the side screen. One sensible way to do that would be that the stream 3 is feed int= o both decoders responsible for the video wall, but "cut out" and upscale the content from the composed picture created by the MCU, before rendering. (There may be technical reasons for the presence of the MCU beyond the fact that there are only three decoders at the receiving side). However, that's not possible as the nature of stream 3 (being composed form 1 and 2) is not visible at the rendering endpoint. =20 My proposal is to add information related to the captures inside a composed stream (beyond that one flag that says the stream is composed). =20 Clearer? =20 Stephan =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: Michael Hammer Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 13:03:07 -0400 To: Stephan Wenger Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed pictures =20 Stephan, =20 You use monitor as both input and output device. I hope that is not embedded in the scheme. The rest of this email seems to focus only on input definitions as it probably should. =20 Don't understand the comment about 3-D followed by coordinates in 3-D. It seems like 3-D is fundamental. =20 Do I understand correctly that the camera coordinates define the location o= f the lense, while the bitstream is abstraction of the pixel layout for some abstraction (via ray-tracing?) of a window? =20 Or is the camera coordinates defining some virtual window in space that through some changes in focal length could be a closeup and those farther from the camera and narrower field of view versus wider angel and closer to the lense with greater field of view? =20 When talking about spatial things, perhaps a picture would help save a thousand words. =20 Also, I would think that what a renderer or MCU would do could be a second discussion once the capture scheme is better understood. (Understand that the impacts of those might drive some iterations on the basic scheme.) =20 Mike On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 11:02 PM, Stephan Wenger wrote: Hi, =20 Here is the kickoff message as agreed in our F2F. =20 We are in the process of defining a mechanism that allows us to tag in room "coordinates" of captures to RTP streams. In its most trivial incarnation, that would allow us to assign the decoded RTP streams to devices such as individual monitors. =20 RTP comes from system 1, camera coordinates x, y, z, upper right x, y, z, lower left x, y, z RTP comes from system 1, camera coordinates (something else) =20 Note that we probably need a third and even a fourth point for faithfully specifying a capture in 3D space, but that's not the subject of this email, so don't beat me up on it right now. =20 As for the capabilities of a renderer (not defined in the framework yet), i= t should be clear that a monitor can trivially display more than one decoded RTP stream. Insofar, the mapping should be per part of a virtual display wall (or however you want to call it), and not per physical screen. I woul= d hope that this is uncontroversial. =20 Things become more tricky when there is a video mixing MCU in the picture, or when an endpoint creates a single RTP stream that contains information from multiple camera devices (through tiling, picture-in-picture). Here, w= e cannot meaningfully tag the a single geographic information to a single RTP stream simply because the multiple video sequences were mixed at the sample level, and the encoder didn't have a clue that it is actually encoding data stemming from more than one camera. However, the endpoint system (or the MCU) know the geographic metadata associated with the composed picture. So what I'm proposing is that we allow a single RTP stream to have more than one geometric information about the capture involved. For video, one would probably have to associate regions of the reconstructed video stream (in th= e spatial dimension) with capture geographic information as currently propose= d in the framework. =20 Example: a sending endpoint creating ONE RTP stream which includes TWO captures, tiled horizontally =20 RTP { bitstream coordinates x=3D0 to 959, y=3D0, to 1080 , comes from system 1, camera coordinates x, y, z, x, y,z x, y, z bitstream coordinates x=3D960 to 1919, y=3D0 to 1080, comes from system 1, camera coordinates (something else) } =20 Architecturally, this system would best need to be recursive, as it ought t= o be possible to throw an already composed image from MCU1 at the input of MCU2, which scales it down and composes it with other images to other ports= . =20 Clear enough? =20 Thanks, Stephan =20 _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue =20 _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue --B_3403095306_5889609 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Mark,
Please se= e inline.
Stephan


From: "Duckworth, Mark" <Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 13:42:08 -0700
To: "clue@ietf.org= " <clue@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of= composed pictures

Hi Stephan= ,

 =

It seems to me the cases wher= e this scheme might be useful are limited and not easily generalizable. = ; The mechanism you propose seems complicated for the limited usefulness.&nb= sp; Wouldn’t it be better to work towards a way for the provider to be= able to send the streams the consumer really wants, rather than composing a= nd then decomposing?


=
Oh, absolutely.  In fact, this is what our systems do.  = ;However, occasionally we get stuck with legacy equipment, connected to your= system over a gateway.  Our gateway (or endpoint) system has no standa= rdized way to decompose a composed picture, because this critical piece of m= etainfo is missing.

 =

If the composite image is constructe= d such that any of the individual images are cropped or obscured, for exampl= e with a picture-in-picture layout, I think your idea of decomposing will no= t work well.


True.
<= div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">

 

= If the MCU is cropping an image for composition, I’m not sure it will = be able to provide accurate area of capture coordinates for the cropped imag= e.  It won’t be the same as the coordinates coming from the origi= nal provider.


<= div>Also true, though, in this case, the MCU should be able to intercept the= CLUE messages and modify them appropriately.  Or stop cropping.
<= div>
I don't think that technical issues are overly difficult = to overcome.  Certainly not the two you mentioned.  The question i= s, should we address this (real-world) use case now, later, or never.  = My thinking is that most of the building blocks to describe spatial relation= ships are already in place; why not extend them to cover this use case now? =  As the very minimum, let's flesh out a framework (sic!) for a solution= for the use case, and make sure that the overall framework would architectu= rally allow for it.

Stephan

 

Mar= k

 =

 

<= div>

From: clue-bou= nces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounce= s@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephan Wenger
Sent: Thursday,= October 20, 2011 3:05 PM
To: Michael Hammer
Cc: clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] Kick= -Off Item 5: description of composed pictures

 

Hi Mike,

&n= bsp;

Fro= m: Michael Hamme= r <mphmmr@gmail.com>

That sort of go= al seems reasonable.  That would require that the mixing or aggregation= process leaves the feed 1 and 2 segregated within the feed 3.  I imagi= ne that some mixers might not do that, but it would provide flexibility.&nbs= p; So, you might need a de-composable flag in addition to distinguish if tha= t can be done.  Anyway, that slides into the design.<= /p>

 

The use case I was referring to = is that the MCU performs video mixing in the traditional way MCUs perform ti= ling (that is: reconstruction of the video streams, aggregation on the pixel= level, encoding).  In other words, feed 3 is a single RTP stream conta= ining a single coded video stream.  To decompose that stream, you need = spatial information in the renderer domain where each image is located in th= e tiled composed image.  That is what I want to add, in addition to the= "decomposable" flag you are suggesting (which would simply be an indication= that the spatial information is present for this RTP stream).

 

Stephan

=

 

From: Michael Hammer <mphmmr@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 1= 4:14:27 -0400
To: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
Cc: "cl= ue@ietf.org" <clue@ietf.org>Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed picture= s

 

Stephan,

 

What I am getting from this description is = that you want the aggregated feed composed of original feeds 1 and 2 to have= sufficient data about the original feeds to enable an output site to do a d= e-aggregation of feed 3 back into its components and to put on available dis= plays as desired.

 

That sort= of goal seems reasonable.  That would require that the mixing or aggre= gation process leaves the feed 1 and 2 segregated within the feed 3.  I= imagine that some mixers might not do that, but it would provide flexibilit= y.  So, you might need a de-composable flag in addition to distinguish = if that can be done.  Anyway, that slides into the design.

 

<= /div>

Mike<= /o:p>

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 a= t 4:35 PM, Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.o= rg> wrote:

= Mike,

 =

Not sure this is goin= g through to the list, due to the size of the attachment.  But let's tr= y.

 

Attached is a little han= d-drawing that hopefully helps understanding what I am shooting for.

Consider a three way con= ference.  The two "capturing" rooms, depicted on the left side, have tw= o cameras each, capturing scenes one and two (for the first room), and four = and five (for the second room), respectively.  The captured content is = encoded by encoders marked "E" to create RTP streams 1, 2, 4, and 5.

RTP streams 1 and 2 (fro= m the first room) terminate an an MCU, which composes them into a composed p= icture 3, encoded into RTP stream 3.  The composed picture contains 1 a= nd 2 side-by-side, plus grey bars on top and bottom.  

The monitors of the receiving thi= rd endpoint are shown on the right side.  Streams 4 and 5 go straight t= o the two decoders of the main projection wall.  Stream 3 (created by t= he MCU) goes through a side decoder to a third monitor (could be the monitor= s that many telepresence rooms have for each participant, a monitor normally= dedicated for shared content, what not).  This monitor shows the compo= sed image.

&= nbsp;

The CLUE archite= cture allows perfectly well to describe the capture properties of streams 4 = and 5.  However, at present, the MCU hides the capture properties of st= reams 1 and 2.  Similarly, the MCU hides the render properties of the d= ecoder/display of stream 3.  Accordingly, the geographic parameters of = captures 1 and 2 are not known at decoder 3, and, if that decoder would want= to do something a bit more sophisticated than just decoding and displaying = on the screen, it couldn't because it lacks info.

 

One of this "more sophisticated" things could, for ex= ample be as follows.  Suppose the endpoint capturing 4 and 5 drops out = of the call.  The video wall of the rendering endpoint goes blank. &nbs= p;It would be desirable if the info from 1 and 2 would be rendered on the vi= deo wall instead of the side screen.  One sensible way to do that would= be that the stream 3 is feed into both decoders responsible for the video w= all, but "cut out" and upscale the content from the composed picture created= by the MCU, before rendering.  (There may be technical reasons for the= presence of the MCU beyond the fact that there are only three decoders at t= he receiving side).  However, that's not possible as the nature of stre= am 3 (being composed form 1 and 2) is not visible at the rendering endpoint.=

 

My proposal is to add info= rmation related to the captures inside a composed stream (beyond that one fl= ag that says the stream is composed).

 

Clearer?

Stephan=    

 

 <= /o:p>

 

 

 

From: Michael Hammer <mphmmr@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 13:03:07 -04= 00
To: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
Cc: "clue@ietf.org" <clue@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off It= em 5: description of composed pictures

=

 

Stephan,

 

You use monitor as both input and output device.  I hope that is no= t embedded in the scheme.

The rest of this email seems to focus only on input definitions as = it probably should.

Don't u= nderstand the comment about 3-D followed by coordinates in 3-D.  It see= ms like 3-D is fundamental.

 

Do I understand correctly that the camera coordinates define the location o= f the lense, while the bitstream is abstraction of the pixel layout for some= abstraction (via ray-tracing?) of a window?

 

Or is the camera coordinates defining some virtual window = in space that through some changes in focal length could be a closeup and th= ose farther from the camera and narrower field of view versus wider angel an= d closer to the lense with greater field of view?

 

When talking about spatial things, perhaps a picture = would help save a thousand words.

 

Also, I would think that what a renderer or MCU would do co= uld be a second discussion once the capture scheme is better understood.&nbs= p; (Understand that the impacts of those might drive some iterations on the = basic scheme.)

&n= bsp;

Mike

<= span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-seri= f; ">On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 11:02 PM, Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org> wrote:

Hi,

<= div>

 

Here is the kickoff message as agreed in our F2F.<= /o:p>

 

We are in the process of definin= g a mechanism that allows us to tag in room "coordinates" of captures to RTP= streams.  In its most trivial incarnation, that would allow us to assi= gn the decoded RTP streams to devices such as individual monitors.

 

RTP <id#1> comes from system 1= , camera coordinates x, y, z, upper right x, y, z, lower left x, y, z <= o:p>

RTP <id#2> = comes from system 1, camera coordinates (something else)

 

Note that we probably need a third and even a = fourth point for faithfully specifying a capture in 3D space, but that's not= the subject of this email, so don't beat me up on it right now. <= /o:p>

 

As for the capabilities of a ren= derer (not defined in the framework yet), it should be clear that a monitor = can trivially display more than one decoded RTP stream.  Insofar, the m= apping should be per part of a virtual display wall (or however you want to = call it), and not per physical screen.  I would hope that this is uncon= troversial.

=  

Things become m= ore tricky when there is a video mixing MCU in the picture, or when an endpo= int creates a single RTP stream that contains information from multiple came= ra devices (through tiling, picture-in-picture).  Here, we cannot meani= ngfully tag the a single geographic information to a single RTP stream simpl= y because the multiple video sequences were mixed at the sample level, and t= he encoder didn't have a clue that it is actually encoding data stemming fro= m more than one camera.  However, the endpoint system (or the MCU) know= the geographic metadata associated with the composed picture.  So what= I'm proposing is that we allow a single RTP stream to have more than one ge= ometric information about the capture involved.  For video, one would p= robably have to associate regions of the reconstructed video stream (in the = spatial dimension) with capture geographic information as currently proposed= in the framework.

Example:= a sending endpoint creating ONE RTP stream which includes TWO captures, til= ed horizontally

<= o:p> 

RTP <id#= 2> {

  &n= bsp; bitstream coordinates x=3D0 to 959, y=3D0, to 1080 , comes from system 1, c= amera coordinates x, y, z, x, y,z x, y, z

    bitstream coordinates x=3D960 to 1919, = y=3D0 to 1080, comes from system 1, camera coordinates (something else) <= o:p>

}

 

Architecturally, this system would best ne= ed to be recursive, as it ought to be possible to throw an already composed = image from MCU1 at the input of MCU2, which scales it down and composes it w= ith other images to other ports.

 

= Clear enough?

Thanks,=

Stephan

 <= /p>


_= ______________________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/clue

<= span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-seri= f; "> 


_________________________________________= ______
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org<= /a>
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue



___= ____________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/clue --B_3403095306_5889609-- From apeppere@cisco.com Wed Nov 2 21:31:55 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032F911E810D for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 21:31:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lau652-E3XaV for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 21:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDF1E11E8080 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 21:31:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=apeppere@cisco.com; l=38849; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1320294705; x=1321504305; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: references:from:to; bh=oUjO0TkHJDQaBgFqxkxIbDCeJiQx3yyfCk9kyoX97YA=; b=WbijfGqkIDFSvO/1k/tX7MNw277hCycE5+aJeFXi/yjFwnnaNjVKvCxH 8Bcc9wTj+aD6grDIODCRfL2ePBegEZowqEcIgJszUqiUkmk6NUFvLtiqJ JCDPu9/J8pr0i6bjfE+akqIxVEpzjjaqZr2OyrG4zLn1vBqoSvMTvky/M o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Aq0AAMEYsk6Q/khR/2dsb2JhbAA6CoJNlzCPeoEFgXIBAQEEDAYBBwILBgM4DBUCAQgRBAEBCwYQAQYBBgFFCQgBAQQTCBqeBQGeeoVvgk5hBJlQjCw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,447,1315180800"; d="scan'208,217";a="120670034" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.72.81]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Nov 2011 04:31:43 +0000 Received: from xbh-ams-101.cisco.com (xbh-ams-101.cisco.com [144.254.74.71]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pA34VhPC001875 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2011 04:31:43 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-214.cisco.com ([144.254.75.25]) by xbh-ams-101.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 3 Nov 2011 05:31:43 +0100 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 x-cr-hashedpuzzle: AD2M Aasm BGp6 Ct3M C2Zn Eqoo FI4Z Fh0n F0ZP F0yZ GEkQ GzPm HN+5 Hmd8 I+U/ JsdX; 1; YwBsAHUAZQBAAGkAZQB0AGYALgBvAHIAZwA=; Sosha1_v1; 7; {9D297BD4-E155-4FCB-9538-DDC2C27A0BF8}; YQBwAGUAcABwAGUAcgBlAEAAYwBpAHMAYwBvAC4AYwBvAG0A; Thu, 03 Nov 2011 04:31:40 GMT; UgBFADoAIABbAGMAbAB1AGUAXQAgAEsAaQBjAGsALQBvAGYAZgAgAEkAdABlAG0AIAAyADoAIABMAGEAeQBvAHUAdAAsACAAYwBvAG0AcABvAHMAaQB0AGkAbwBuACwAIABzAHcAaQB0AGMAaABpAG4AZwAgAGQAaQBzAGMAdQBzAHMAaQBvAG4A MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CC99E1.7CE61B42" x-cr-puzzleid: {9D297BD4-E155-4FCB-9538-DDC2C27A0BF8} Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 05:31:40 +0100 Message-ID: <1E49F3FD840FD147B563510DE0A819CDC3D8F0@XMB-AMS-214.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D7D9@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion Thread-Index: AcyUvVrMDMQ5UufGQp+yMcU2E0ehsQANDRggAPInLDAAK0wloAAPgQGwAA7j5FA= References: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE42473E@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com><0a0301cc94f3$19359ed0$4ba0dc70$%roni@huawei.com><44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D0AA@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com><033301cc9971$82402da0$86c088e0$%roni@huawei.com> <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D7D9@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> From: "Andrew Pepperell (apeppere)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Nov 2011 04:31:43.0171 (UTC) FILETIME=[7D0EB930:01CC99E1] Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 04:31:55 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC99E1.7CE61B42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Roni, Mark, =20 My feeling on the whole use of CSRCs to identify the SSRCs of the mixed sources is that perhaps this shouldn't be relied upon for CLUE - I'm not so convinced this works for multi-stream systems, it's possible to make composed layouts that would require too many CSRCs to be included, plus it only goes so far in describing the mix (for instance, it can't include information on who's being placed where etc.). The idea here I favor would be an additional optional provider -> consumer message to describe (in as full terms as we like) the make-up of a composed (or even switched) stream. This isn't to say that including CSRC values into a mixed stream is wrong, just that it isn't necessarily sophisticated enough for systems that would want to use CLUE to its fullest. =20 To me, enumerating "a few possible modes" for a number of specific use cases is in line with the thinking behind the "switched" / "composed" media capture attributes already present in the model. A given middle box might advertise a set of switched or loudest speaker captures and a set of pre-composed streams as alternatives and the consumer then chooses whether to receive loudest speaker streams and compose them into a layout itself or to receive the pre-composed streams and map them 1 to 1 onto its screens. However, it's not completely clear if this could / should be taken further to include alternatives for site switching / segment switching, a 2 x 2 layout vs 3 x 3, fast / slow switching, round robin panes etc. I wonder if each of these cases needs reasonably careful consideration as to how it might be done within the existing ideas of media capture attributes. I also wonder if this sort of thing strengthens the case for the inclusion of the set of supported media capture attributes in an initial consumer -> provider message. =20 I do think though that layout is a special case here - I don't see CLUE as needing to provide a way for the consumer to specify to the provider (e.g. in the pre-composed case) any form of description of the layout it wants. To me, the pre-composed case should be the consumer choosing to take what the provider decides to compose (modulo any site / segment switching variations as per the above) an endpoints wishing to implement specific layouts should instead be asking for the "n" loudest streams and then perform the composition themselves. This avoids the need to CLUE to somehow be able to describe layouts while allowing different vendors' middle boxes to continue to enjoy their current freedom in terms of implementing sensible / innovative layouts. =20 In terms of the ability of consumers to choose specific streams to receive, again I think we need to bear in mind certain complexities here. Specifically, assuming the large conference case where there are 100, 1000 or more different systems in a conference, each capable of sending 1, 2, 3, or 4 camera versions of their media, it's clearly not practical for every single CLUE consumer to be able to choose from the thousands of individual streams on offer - I think we should aim to avoid the case where a single system can ask for, say, systems A's left screen on its own right, system B's center on its left and some other system C's left screen to be displayed on its center. Apart from anything else, this opens up the possibility of multiple simultaneous conflicting requests which would be individually valid but impossible together. I would see it as the job of the middle box in this case to present a sensible set of choices to each consumer, in conjunction with a roster list, enabling each consumer some freedom in what it receives without the potential for complete chaos / unimplementability that the "full mesh" scheme would allow. =20 I think there is a reasonably sensible middle ground to be reached here to allow some level of selection while avoiding the worst case - specifically, if we allowed a consumer to choose who it would prefer to see in each selectable stream and combine this with the provider -> consumer stream tagging message we'd be able to accomplish almost of the sensible cases I think without getting to the pathological worst cases. =20 Andy =20 =20 From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Duckworth, Mark Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 9:42 PM To: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion =20 Hi Roni, =20 Thanks for the clarifications. =20 For identifying what is in a mixed or composed media stream, I agree it makes sense to use the existing SSRC and CSRC mechanism rather than something new. =20 I think you are saying you want to define a few enumerated "mixing policies" and "mixing modes" (switching is a subset of mixing) that will cover some small number of useful cases, is that right? But not try to be all-inclusive with a never-ending list of possibilities? =20 What do you mean by "The protocol from the consumer to provider can be a second stage"? Do you mean leave that for a possible future extension? =20 Mark =20 =20 From: Roni Even [mailto:Even.roni@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 11:10 AM To: Duckworth, Mark; clue@ietf.org Subject: RE: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion =20 Hi Mark, The reason I shorted the list is because if we want item 4 support than item 2 is needed to let the consumer know what algorithms can be used.=20 As for item 1 I do not understand why we are even discussing it. In current RTP you know the SSRCs of the mixed sources as they are part of CSRC, so for CLUE we need to verify that this is not broken. The change in the mix should be reflected in RTCP but we will need the association to the CLUE information. =20 My view is that we need to support both switching and mixing (so switching here is a case of mixing). The issue of conference-wide mode or per user is application or implementation specific. The provider can decide how to respond to a request based on its capabilities and policies. =20 As for enumerating the cases. There is more than one dimension. I think that we can look at general policy (site switch, segment switch), per receive stream (Voice activated, round robin). The usage can be automated, so he consumer asks for the mode and the actual content is decided by the producer based on the mode (Example segment switch, stream 1 voice activated, stream 2 round robin- this will send in stream 1 the current speaker and in stream 2 go through the rest of the streams (all rooms and all cameras) in round robin). If the consumer will want to build a specific mix he should be able to ask for a specific streams for example in the previous example the consumer can ask also for a third stream that will have the Manager TP system middle camera. =20 I think that it will be good in the first stage to allow the producer to provide the information about the modes (segment switch, site switch, voice activate,..) and to allow the consumer to identify who is in the mix/switch. The protocol from the consumer to provider can be a second stage Roni =20 =20 =20 From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Duckworth, Mark Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 7:35 PM To: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion =20 Hi Roni, =20 The two topics you listed are items 3 and 4 from my message. =20 I think your item 1 and my item 3 are about source selection, which needs a discussion to include selecting sources for a mix, and also selecting sources a consumer wants to receive individually (not part of a mix). Jonathan's presentation from the Andover meeting (13-CLUE-Interim-Sources.ppt) raised some good points about this. Do you agree this all falls under the same topic? =20 I think your item 2 and my item 4 are the same topic. Are you talking about switching streams, or composing streams, or both? Do you see these switching modes as something a particular consumer can request from a provider, that will not impact other consumers? Or is it more like a conference-wide mode? (this gets into Paul's point as well). My concern about this is I don't see how to bound it. Are you suggesting we should define a few specific composing/switching modes that a provider can enumerate, and a way for a consumer to choose one? =20 Mark =20 =20 From: Roni Even [mailto:Even.roni@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 5:55 PM To: Duckworth, Mark; clue@ietf.org Subject: RE: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion =20 Hi Mark, I understand that you have two topics =20 1. Allowing the consumer to select specific media streams for a mix (for example, left camera from room 1, middle camera from room 2 and left camera from room 3) which I think should be possible. This will require information and protocol that will allow this functionality. 2. Allowing the provider to specify the mixture algorithm and for the consumer to ask for a specific one. I think that we need at least to enable the provider and consumer to specify or request site switch or segment switch mode. =20 Roni =20 From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Duckworth, Mark Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 5:30 PM To: clue@ietf.org Subject: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion =20 This is following up on the major issues list from the interim meeting in Andover. Issues for discussion: 1. Item 5 video composition (discussion kicked off by Stephan) is a part of this. But more generally, the same sort of issue applies to other media types, not just video. a. For example, should a provider that mixes audio be able to indicate to the consumer which audio sources are in the mix? b. Proposal - the more general case should be consistent with the outcome of the Item 5 discussio =20 2. Should a provider that mixes or composes other media captures/streams into a new stream be able to indicate some information about the algorithm it uses to choose which other captures/streams to mix? a. Proposal - no, CLUE does not need this. 3. Should a provider that mixes or composes media be able to allow the consumer to make a choice about which other captures/streams are included in the mix? a. This should be covered by Major Issue Item 3 source selection - (discussion to be kicked off by Jonathan) 4. Do we need support in CLUE for allowing a media consumer to request the provider to compose or mix particular media sources into a new media stream, using a particular algorithm? a. Proposal - no, CLUE does not need this. b. But if something like item 5 idea is accepted, then maybe a provider can offer a few alternatives and a consumer can choose among them =20 Mark Duckworth =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC99E1.7CE61B42 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Roni, Mark,

 

My feeling on the whole use of CSRCs to identify = the SSRCs of the mixed sources is that perhaps this shouldn't be relied upon for = CLUE - I'm not so convinced this works for multi-stream systems, it's possible = to make composed layouts that would require too many CSRCs to be included, plus = it only goes so far in describing the mix (for instance, it can't include = information on who's being placed where etc.). The idea here I favor would be an = additional optional provider -> consumer message to describe (in as full terms = as we like) the make-up of a composed (or even switched) stream. This isn't to = say that including CSRC values into a mixed stream is wrong, just that it = isn't necessarily sophisticated enough for systems that would want to use CLUE = to its fullest.

 

To me, enumerating “a few possible = modes” for a number of specific use cases is in line with the thinking behind the = “switched” / “composed” media capture attributes already present in the = model. A given middle box might advertise a set of switched or loudest speaker captures and a set of pre-composed streams as alternatives and the = consumer then chooses whether to receive loudest speaker streams and compose them = into a layout itself or to receive the pre-composed streams and map them 1 to 1 = onto its screens. However, it’s not completely clear if this could / = should be taken further to include alternatives for site switching / segment = switching, a 2 x 2 layout vs 3 x 3, fast / slow switching, round robin panes etc. I = wonder if each of these cases needs reasonably careful consideration as to how = it might be done within the existing ideas of media capture attributes. I = also wonder if this sort of thing strengthens the case for the inclusion of = the set of supported media capture attributes in an initial consumer -> = provider message.

 

I do think though that layout is a special case = here – I don’t see CLUE as needing to provide a way for the consumer to = specify to the provider (e.g. in the pre-composed case) any form of description = of the layout it wants. To me, the pre-composed case should be the consumer = choosing to take what the provider decides to compose (modulo any site / segment switching variations as per the above) an endpoints wishing to implement specific layouts should instead be asking for the “n” = loudest streams and then perform the composition themselves. This avoids the = need to CLUE to somehow be able to describe layouts while allowing different = vendors’ middle boxes to continue to enjoy their current freedom in terms of implementing sensible / innovative layouts.

 

In terms of the ability of consumers to choose = specific streams to receive, again I think we need to bear in mind certain = complexities here. Specifically, assuming the large conference case where there are = 100, 1000 or more different systems in a conference, each capable of sending = 1, 2, 3, or 4 camera versions of their media, it’s clearly not practical = for every single CLUE consumer to be able to choose from the thousands of = individual streams on offer – I think we should aim to avoid the case where a = single system can ask for, say, systems A’s left screen on its own right, = system B’s center on its left and some other system C’s left screen = to be displayed on its center. Apart from anything else, this opens up the possibility of multiple simultaneous conflicting requests which would be = individually valid but impossible together. I would see it as the job of the middle = box in this case to present a sensible set of choices to each consumer, in = conjunction with a roster list, enabling each consumer some freedom in what it = receives without the potential for complete chaos / unimplementability that the = “full mesh” scheme would allow.

 

I think there is a reasonably sensible middle = ground to be reached here to allow some level of selection while avoiding the worst case = – specifically, if we allowed a consumer to choose who it would prefer to = see in each selectable stream and combine this with the provider -> consumer = stream tagging  message we’d be able to accomplish almost of the = sensible cases I think without getting to the pathological worst = cases.

 

Andy

 

 

From:= clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Duckworth, Mark
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 9:42 PM
To: clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, = switching discussion

 

Hi = Roni,

 

Thanks for the = clarifications.

 

For identifying what = is in a mixed or composed media stream, I agree it makes sense to use the = existing SSRC and CSRC mechanism rather than something new.

 

I think you are = saying you want to define a few enumerated “mixing policies” and  “mixing modes” (switching is a subset of mixing) that = will cover some small number of useful cases, is that right?  But not = try to be all-inclusive with a never-ending list of = possibilities?

 

What do you mean by = “The protocol from the consumer to provider can be a second = stage”?  Do you mean leave that for a possible future = extension?

 

Mark

 

 

From:= Roni Even [mailto:Even.roni@huawei.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 11:10 AM
To: Duckworth, Mark; clue@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, = switching discussion

 

Hi = Mark,

The reason I shorted = the list is because if we want item 4 support than item 2 is needed to let the = consumer know what algorithms can be used.

As for item 1 I do = not understand why we are even discussing it. In current RTP you know the SSRCs of the = mixed sources as they are part of CSRC, so for CLUE we need to verify that = this is not broken. The change in the mix should be reflected in RTCP but we = will need the association to the CLUE information.

 

My view is that we = need to support  both switching and mixing (so switching here is a case of mixing). The issue of conference-wide mode or per user is application or implementation specific. The provider can decide how to respond to a = request based on its capabilities and policies.

 

As for enumerating = the cases.  There is more than one dimension. I think that we can look = at general policy (site switch, segment switch), per receive stream (Voice activated, round robin). The usage can be automated, so he consumer asks = for the mode and the actual content is decided by the producer based on the = mode (Example segment switch, stream 1 voice activated, stream 2 round robin- = this will send in stream 1 the current speaker and in stream 2 go through the = rest of the streams (all rooms and all cameras) in round = robin).

If the consumer will = want to build a specific mix he should be able to ask for a specific streams for example in the previous example the consumer can ask also for a third = stream that will have the Manager TP system middle = camera.

 

I think that it will = be good in the first stage to allow the producer to provide the information about = the modes (segment switch, site switch, voice activate,..) and to allow the consumer to identify who is in the mix/switch. The protocol from the = consumer to provider can be a second stage

Roni

 

 

 

From:= clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Duckworth, Mark
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 7:35 PM
To: clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, = switching discussion

 

Hi = Roni,

 

The two topics you = listed are items 3 and 4 from my message.

 

I think your item 1 = and my item 3 are about source selection, which needs a discussion to include = selecting sources for a mix, and also selecting sources a consumer wants to = receive individually (not part of a mix).  Jonathan’s presentation = from the Andover meeting (13-CLUE-Interim-Sources.ppt) raised some good points = about this.  Do you agree this all falls under the same = topic?

 

I think your item 2 = and my item 4 are the same topic.  Are you talking about switching streams, or composing streams, or both?  Do you see these switching modes as = something a particular consumer can request from a provider, that will not impact = other consumers? Or is it more like a conference-wide mode? (this gets into Paul’s point as well).

My concern about this = is I don’t see how to bound it.  Are you suggesting we should = define a few specific composing/switching modes that a provider can enumerate, = and a way for a consumer to choose one?

 

Mark

 

 

From:= Roni Even [mailto:Even.roni@huawei.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 5:55 PM
To: Duckworth, Mark; clue@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, = switching discussion

 

Hi = Mark,

I understand that you = have two topics

 

1.       Allowing = the consumer to select specific media streams for a mix (for example, left = camera from room 1, middle camera from room 2 and left camera from room 3) = which I think should be possible. This will require information and protocol = that will allow this functionality.

2.       Allowing = the provider  to specify the mixture algorithm and for the consumer to = ask for a specific one. I think that we need at least to enable the provider and consumer to specify or request site switch or segment switch = mode.

 

Roni

 

From:= clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Duckworth, Mark
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 5:30 PM
To: clue@ietf.org
Subject: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion

 

This is following up on the major issues list from = the interim meeting in Andover.

Issues for discussion:

1.       Item 5 video composition (discussion kicked off = by Stephan) is a part of this.  But more generally, the same sort of = issue applies to other media types, not just video.

a.       For example, should a provider that mixes audio be able to indicate to the = consumer which audio sources are in the mix?

b.      Proposal – the more general case = should be consistent with the outcome of the Item 5 discussio

 

2.       Should a provider that mixes or composes other = media captures/streams into a new stream be able to indicate some information = about the algorithm it uses to choose which other captures/streams to = mix?

a.       = Proposal – no, CLUE does not need this.

3.       Should a provider that mixes or composes media = be able to allow the consumer to make a choice about which other = captures/streams are included in the mix?

a.       = This should be covered by Major Issue Item 3 source selection – = (discussion to be kicked off by Jonathan)

4.       Do we need support in CLUE for allowing a media = consumer to request the provider to compose or mix particular media sources into = a new media stream, using a particular algorithm?

a.       = Proposal – no, CLUE does not need this.

b.      = But if something like item 5 idea is accepted, then maybe a provider can = offer a few alternatives and a consumer can choose among them

 

Mark Duckworth

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01CC99E1.7CE61B42-- From apeppere@cisco.com Wed Nov 2 22:00:55 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 012AA11E808D for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 22:00:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E1lTrOER96vi for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 22:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F284811E8080 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 22:00:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=apeppere@cisco.com; l=57995; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1320296444; x=1321506044; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: references:from:to; bh=D/qd+aUpOfXwf2RMpfYRXPp3oWQu1K/w0DGOt3yBg3Y=; b=HWF8kQBREmeSfXvFy+SEWk3C/J9rdwWsTX2iw+oMu358qYM4i/YIr7KT HI7WdsJ8aabfcyTzw8SgXu21BvO4OlxmXZK8S3YsNw+J3waTuWJXvKdr4 1SSyq80EYp/KPgeIm5RkrLmuCyMjs0AKj+B3WOJ/RuE5rzPSCMIgJf+yX g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ArgAAC4fsk6Q/khL/2dsb2JhbABEgk2XMI5bgR+BBYFyAQEBBAEBAQ8BBwILBgM4BgQXAgEIDgMBAgEBAQsGEAEGAQYBIAYfAwYIAQEEARIIEwQDh2iWEQGebgSIPWEEmVCFAYcr X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,447,1315180800"; d="scan'208,217";a="59084495" Received: from ams-core-2.cisco.com ([144.254.72.75]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Nov 2011 05:00:42 +0000 Received: from xbh-ams-101.cisco.com (xbh-ams-101.cisco.com [144.254.74.71]) by ams-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pA350gVF004827; Thu, 3 Nov 2011 05:00:42 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-214.cisco.com ([144.254.75.25]) by xbh-ams-101.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 3 Nov 2011 06:00:42 +0100 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CC99E5.899E8424" Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 06:00:41 +0100 Message-ID: <1E49F3FD840FD147B563510DE0A819CDC3D8F2@XMB-AMS-214.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed pictures Thread-Index: AcyZtU5so+AQkLk+Roejgw3t+kU8HAAL0mNw References: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D76E@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> From: "Andrew Pepperell (apeppere)" To: "Stephan Wenger" , "Duckworth, Mark" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Nov 2011 05:00:42.0671 (UTC) FILETIME=[89E15BF0:01CC99E5] Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed pictures X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 05:00:55 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC99E5.899E8424 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not particularly enamored by the idea of decomposing a stream into its constituents - as Mark points out, some layouts (whether due to overlaid panes or cropping) may not lend themselves to it and there might also be issues when upscaling - different sized panes' borders / text annotations may look ugly / mismatched when scaled up. =20 However, there's certainly a good argument in favor of having a method for the provider to signal to the consumer some detail of what the composed (and also switched) stream contains in terms of mapping pixel areas to constituent captures (it would be hard to argue against this as given that we implemented and shipped just such a scheme as Tandberg a couple of years ago). I think we should be looking to add a provider -> consumer message that would allow the provider to inform the consumer of which streams are being shown where, though this should be strictly optional on the part of the provider and be orthogonal to any mechanisms for layout, stream, or policy choice on the part of the consumer . Stephan, you'd be welcome to use this information to decompose a stream if you so wished, though I do think I would ever do so myself J =20 The idea of making this recursive and for one MCU to receive this information and then incorporate / embed it in a multiply-composed stream also seems sensible (even though I think composing streams in this way isn't ideal MCU behavior). I'm not sure how the camera X, Y, Z coordinates would work out in such a scheme though, as different source systems' coordinates may not be easy to relate to each other - an alternative would be potentially normalize them when forming the composition description so that you knew, say, what was being shown on the left half of the composed stream was the rightmost third of the source system. =20 Regards, =20 Andy =20 =20 =20 =20 From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephan Wenger Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 11:15 PM To: Duckworth, Mark; clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed pictures =20 Hi Mark, Please see inline. Stephan =20 =20 From: "Duckworth, Mark" Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 13:42:08 -0700 To: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed pictures =20 Hi Stephan, =20 It seems to me the cases where this scheme might be useful are limited and not easily generalizable. The mechanism you propose seems complicated for the limited usefulness. Wouldn't it be better to work towards a way for the provider to be able to send the streams the consumer really wants, rather than composing and then decomposing? =20 Oh, absolutely. In fact, this is what our systems do. However, occasionally we get stuck with legacy equipment, connected to your system over a gateway. Our gateway (or endpoint) system has no standardized way to decompose a composed picture, because this critical piece of metainfo is missing. =20 If the composite image is constructed such that any of the individual images are cropped or obscured, for example with a picture-in-picture layout, I think your idea of decomposing will not work well. =20 True. =20 If the MCU is cropping an image for composition, I'm not sure it will be able to provide accurate area of capture coordinates for the cropped image. It won't be the same as the coordinates coming from the original provider. =20 Also true, though, in this case, the MCU should be able to intercept the CLUE messages and modify them appropriately. Or stop cropping. =20 I don't think that technical issues are overly difficult to overcome. Certainly not the two you mentioned. The question is, should we address this (real-world) use case now, later, or never. My thinking is that most of the building blocks to describe spatial relationships are already in place; why not extend them to cover this use case now? As the very minimum, let's flesh out a framework (sic!) for a solution for the use case, and make sure that the overall framework would architecturally allow for it. =20 Stephan =20 Mark =20 =20 From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephan Wenger Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 3:05 PM To: Michael Hammer Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed pictures =20 Hi Mike, =20 From: Michael Hammer That sort of goal seems reasonable. That would require that the mixing or aggregation process leaves the feed 1 and 2 segregated within the feed 3. I imagine that some mixers might not do that, but it would provide flexibility. So, you might need a de-composable flag in addition to distinguish if that can be done. Anyway, that slides into the design. =20 The use case I was referring to is that the MCU performs video mixing in the traditional way MCUs perform tiling (that is: reconstruction of the video streams, aggregation on the pixel level, encoding). In other words, feed 3 is a single RTP stream containing a single coded video stream. To decompose that stream, you need spatial information in the renderer domain where each image is located in the tiled composed image. That is what I want to add, in addition to the "decomposable" flag you are suggesting (which would simply be an indication that the spatial information is present for this RTP stream). =20 Stephan =20 From: Michael Hammer Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:14:27 -0400 To: Stephan Wenger Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed pictures =20 Stephan, =20 What I am getting from this description is that you want the aggregated feed composed of original feeds 1 and 2 to have sufficient data about the original feeds to enable an output site to do a de-aggregation of feed 3 back into its components and to put on available displays as desired. =20 That sort of goal seems reasonable. That would require that the mixing or aggregation process leaves the feed 1 and 2 segregated within the feed 3. I imagine that some mixers might not do that, but it would provide flexibility. So, you might need a de-composable flag in addition to distinguish if that can be done. Anyway, that slides into the design. =20 Mike On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:35 PM, Stephan Wenger wrote: Mike, =20 Not sure this is going through to the list, due to the size of the attachment. But let's try. =20 Attached is a little hand-drawing that hopefully helps understanding what I am shooting for. Consider a three way conference. The two "capturing" rooms, depicted on the left side, have two cameras each, capturing scenes one and two (for the first room), and four and five (for the second room), respectively. The captured content is encoded by encoders marked "E" to create RTP streams 1, 2, 4, and 5. RTP streams 1 and 2 (from the first room) terminate an an MCU, which composes them into a composed picture 3, encoded into RTP stream 3. The composed picture contains 1 and 2 side-by-side, plus grey bars on top and bottom. =20 The monitors of the receiving third endpoint are shown on the right side. Streams 4 and 5 go straight to the two decoders of the main projection wall. Stream 3 (created by the MCU) goes through a side decoder to a third monitor (could be the monitors that many telepresence rooms have for each participant, a monitor normally dedicated for shared content, what not). This monitor shows the composed image. =20 The CLUE architecture allows perfectly well to describe the capture properties of streams 4 and 5. However, at present, the MCU hides the capture properties of streams 1 and 2. Similarly, the MCU hides the render properties of the decoder/display of stream 3. Accordingly, the geographic parameters of captures 1 and 2 are not known at decoder 3, and, if that decoder would want to do something a bit more sophisticated than just decoding and displaying on the screen, it couldn't because it lacks info. =20 One of this "more sophisticated" things could, for example be as follows. Suppose the endpoint capturing 4 and 5 drops out of the call. The video wall of the rendering endpoint goes blank. It would be desirable if the info from 1 and 2 would be rendered on the video wall instead of the side screen. One sensible way to do that would be that the stream 3 is feed into both decoders responsible for the video wall, but "cut out" and upscale the content from the composed picture created by the MCU, before rendering. (There may be technical reasons for the presence of the MCU beyond the fact that there are only three decoders at the receiving side). However, that's not possible as the nature of stream 3 (being composed form 1 and 2) is not visible at the rendering endpoint. =20 My proposal is to add information related to the captures inside a composed stream (beyond that one flag that says the stream is composed). =20 Clearer? =20 Stephan =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: Michael Hammer Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 13:03:07 -0400 To: Stephan Wenger Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed pictures =20 Stephan, =20 You use monitor as both input and output device. I hope that is not embedded in the scheme. The rest of this email seems to focus only on input definitions as it probably should. =20 Don't understand the comment about 3-D followed by coordinates in 3-D. It seems like 3-D is fundamental. =20 Do I understand correctly that the camera coordinates define the location of the lense, while the bitstream is abstraction of the pixel layout for some abstraction (via ray-tracing?) of a window? =20 Or is the camera coordinates defining some virtual window in space that through some changes in focal length could be a closeup and those farther from the camera and narrower field of view versus wider angel and closer to the lense with greater field of view? =20 When talking about spatial things, perhaps a picture would help save a thousand words. =20 Also, I would think that what a renderer or MCU would do could be a second discussion once the capture scheme is better understood. (Understand that the impacts of those might drive some iterations on the basic scheme.) =20 Mike On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 11:02 PM, Stephan Wenger wrote: Hi, =20 Here is the kickoff message as agreed in our F2F. =20 We are in the process of defining a mechanism that allows us to tag in room "coordinates" of captures to RTP streams. In its most trivial incarnation, that would allow us to assign the decoded RTP streams to devices such as individual monitors. =20 RTP comes from system 1, camera coordinates x, y, z, upper right x, y, z, lower left x, y, z=20 RTP comes from system 1, camera coordinates (something else) =20 Note that we probably need a third and even a fourth point for faithfully specifying a capture in 3D space, but that's not the subject of this email, so don't beat me up on it right now.=20 =20 As for the capabilities of a renderer (not defined in the framework yet), it should be clear that a monitor can trivially display more than one decoded RTP stream. Insofar, the mapping should be per part of a virtual display wall (or however you want to call it), and not per physical screen. I would hope that this is uncontroversial. =20 Things become more tricky when there is a video mixing MCU in the picture, or when an endpoint creates a single RTP stream that contains information from multiple camera devices (through tiling, picture-in-picture). Here, we cannot meaningfully tag the a single geographic information to a single RTP stream simply because the multiple video sequences were mixed at the sample level, and the encoder didn't have a clue that it is actually encoding data stemming from more than one camera. However, the endpoint system (or the MCU) know the geographic metadata associated with the composed picture. So what I'm proposing is that we allow a single RTP stream to have more than one geometric information about the capture involved. For video, one would probably have to associate regions of the reconstructed video stream (in the spatial dimension) with capture geographic information as currently proposed in the framework. =20 Example: a sending endpoint creating ONE RTP stream which includes TWO captures, tiled horizontally =20 RTP { bitstream coordinates x=3D0 to 959, y=3D0, to 1080 , comes from = system 1, camera coordinates x, y, z, x, y,z x, y, z bitstream coordinates x=3D960 to 1919, y=3D0 to 1080, comes from = system 1, camera coordinates (something else)=20 } =20 Architecturally, this system would best need to be recursive, as it ought to be possible to throw an already composed image from MCU1 at the input of MCU2, which scales it down and composes it with other images to other ports. =20 Clear enough? =20 Thanks, Stephan =20 _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue =20 _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC99E5.899E8424 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I’m not particularly enamored by the idea of decomposing a stream into its constituents – as Mark points out, = some layouts (whether due to overlaid panes or cropping) may not lend themselves to = it and there might also be issues when upscaling – different sized panes’ = borders / text annotations may look ugly / mismatched when scaled = up.

 

However, there’s certainly a good argument in = favor of having a method for the provider to signal to the consumer some detail = of what the composed (and also switched) stream contains in terms of mapping = pixel areas to constituent captures (it would be hard to argue against this as = given that we implemented and shipped just such a scheme as Tandberg a couple = of years ago). I think we should be looking to add a provider -> consumer = message that would allow the provider to inform the consumer of which streams = are being shown where, though this should be strictly optional on the part of the provider and be orthogonal to any mechanisms for layout, stream, or = policy choice on the part of the consumer . Stephan, you’d be welcome to = use this information to decompose a stream if you so wished, though I do = think I would ever do so myself J

 

The idea of making this recursive and for one MCU = to receive this information and then incorporate / embed it in a multiply-composed = stream also seems sensible (even though I think composing streams in this way = isn’t ideal MCU behavior). I’m not sure how the camera X, Y, Z coordinates = would work out in such a scheme though, as different source systems’ = coordinates may not be easy to relate to each other – an alternative would be = potentially normalize them when forming the composition description so that you = knew, say, what was being shown on the left half of the composed stream was the = rightmost third of the source system.

 

Regards,

 

Andy

 

 =

 

 

From:= clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Stephan Wenger
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 11:15 PM
To: Duckworth, Mark; clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed = pictures

 

Hi Mark,

Please see inline.

Stephan

 

 

From: "Duckworth, Mark" <Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com= >
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 13:42:08 -0700
To: "clue@ietf.org" <clue@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed = pictures

 

Hi Stephan,

 

It seems to me the cases where this scheme might be = useful are limited and not easily generalizable.  The mechanism you propose = seems complicated for the limited usefulness.  Wouldn’t it be = better to work towards a way for the provider to be able to send the streams the = consumer really wants, rather than composing and then decomposing?

 

Oh, absolutely.  In fact, this is what our systems do.  However, occasionally we get stuck with legacy equipment, = connected to your system over a gateway.  Our gateway (or endpoint) system has = no standardized way to decompose a composed picture, because this critical = piece of metainfo is missing.

 

If the composite image is constructed such that any of = the individual images are cropped or obscured, for example with a picture-in-picture layout, I think your idea of decomposing will not = work well.

 

True.

 

If the MCU is cropping an image for composition, = I’m not sure it will be able to provide accurate area of capture coordinates for = the cropped image.  It won’t be the same as the coordinates = coming from the original provider.

 

Also true, though, in this case, the MCU should be able to = intercept the CLUE messages and modify them appropriately.  Or stop = cropping.

 

I don't think that technical issues are overly difficult to overcome.  Certainly not the two you mentioned.  The question = is, should we address this (real-world) use case now, later, or never. =  My thinking is that most of the building blocks to describe spatial = relationships are already in place; why not extend them to cover this use case now? =  As the very minimum, let's flesh out a framework (sic!) for a solution for = the use case, and make sure that the overall framework would architecturally = allow for it.

 

Stephan

 

Mark

 

 

From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Stephan Wenger
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 3:05 PM
To: Michael Hammer
Cc: clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed = pictures

 

Hi Mike,

 

From: Michael Hammer <mphmmr@gmail.com>

That sort of goal seems reasonable.  That would = require that the mixing or aggregation process leaves the feed 1 and 2 segregated = within the feed 3.  I imagine that some mixers might not do that, but it would provide flexibility.  So, you might need a de-composable flag in = addition to distinguish if that can be done.  Anyway, that slides into the = design.

 

The use case I was referring to is that the MCU performs = video mixing in the traditional way MCUs perform tiling (that is: = reconstruction of the video streams, aggregation on the pixel level, encoding).  In = other words, feed 3 is a single RTP stream containing a single coded video = stream.  To decompose that stream, you need spatial information in the = renderer domain where each image is located in the tiled composed image. =  That is what I want to add, in addition to the "decomposable" flag you = are suggesting (which would simply be an indication that the spatial = information is present for this RTP stream).

 

Stephan

 

From: Michael Hammer <mphmmr@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:14:27 -0400
To: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
Cc: "clue@ietf.org" <clue@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed = pictures

 

Stephan,

 

What I am getting from this description is that you want = the aggregated feed composed of original feeds 1 and 2 to have sufficient = data about the original feeds to enable an output site to do a de-aggregation = of feed 3 back into its components and to put on available displays as = desired.

 

That sort of goal seems reasonable.  That would = require that the mixing or aggregation process leaves the feed 1 and 2 segregated = within the feed 3.  I imagine that some mixers might not do that, but it would provide flexibility.  So, you might need a de-composable flag in = addition to distinguish if that can be done.  Anyway, that slides into the = design.

 

Mike

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:35 PM, Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org> = wrote:

Mike,

 

Not sure this is going through to the list, due to the size = of the attachment.  But let's try.

 

Attached is a little hand-drawing that hopefully helps understanding what I am shooting for.

Consider a three way conference.  The two "capturing" rooms, depicted on the left side, have two cameras = each, capturing scenes one and two (for the first room), and four and five = (for the second room), respectively.  The captured content is encoded by = encoders marked "E" to create RTP streams 1, 2, 4, and 5.

RTP streams 1 and 2 (from the first room) terminate an an = MCU, which composes them into a composed picture 3, encoded into RTP stream = 3.  The composed picture contains 1 and 2 side-by-side, plus grey bars = on top and bottom.  

The monitors of the receiving third endpoint are shown on = the right side.  Streams 4 and 5 go straight to the two decoders of the = main projection wall.  Stream 3 (created by the MCU) goes through a side decoder to a third monitor (could be the monitors that many telepresence = rooms have for each participant, a monitor normally dedicated for shared = content, what not).  This monitor shows the composed image.

 

The CLUE architecture allows perfectly well to describe the capture properties of streams 4 and 5.  However, at present, the = MCU hides the capture properties of streams 1 and 2.  Similarly, the MCU = hides the render properties of the decoder/display of stream 3.  Accordingly, = the geographic parameters of captures 1 and 2 are not known at decoder 3, = and, if that decoder would want to do something a bit more sophisticated than = just decoding and displaying on the screen, it couldn't because it lacks = info.

 

One of this "more sophisticated" things could, = for example be as follows.  Suppose the endpoint capturing 4 and 5 = drops out of the call.  The video wall of the rendering endpoint goes blank.  It would be desirable if the info from 1 and 2 would be rendered = on the video wall instead of the side screen.  One sensible way to do that = would be that the stream 3 is feed into both decoders responsible for the = video wall, but "cut out" and upscale the content from the composed = picture created by the MCU, before rendering.  (There may be technical = reasons for the presence of the MCU beyond the fact that there are only three = decoders at the receiving side).  However, that's not possible as the nature of = stream 3 (being composed form 1 and 2) is not visible at the rendering = endpoint.

 

My proposal is to add information related to the captures = inside a composed stream (beyond that one flag that says the stream is = composed).

 

Clearer?

 

Stephan    

 

 

 

 

 

From: Michael Hammer <mphmmr@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 13:03:07 -0400
To: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
Cc: "clue@ietf.org" <clue@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed = pictures

 

Stephan,

 

You use monitor as both input and output device.  I = hope that is not embedded in the scheme.

The rest of this email seems to focus only on input = definitions as it probably should.

 

Don't understand the comment about 3-D followed by = coordinates in 3-D.  It seems like 3-D is fundamental.

 

Do I understand correctly that the camera coordinates = define the location of the lense, while the bitstream is abstraction of the pixel = layout for some abstraction (via ray-tracing?) of a window?

 

Or is the camera coordinates defining some virtual window = in space that through some changes in focal length could be a closeup and those = farther from the camera and narrower field of view versus wider angel and closer = to the lense with greater field of view?

 

When talking about spatial things, perhaps a picture would = help save a thousand words.

 

Also, I would think that what a renderer or MCU would do could be a second discussion once the capture scheme is better understood.  (Understand that the impacts of those might drive some iterations on the basic scheme.)

 

Mike

On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 11:02 PM, Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org> wrote:

Hi,

 

Here is the kickoff message as agreed in our = F2F.

 

We are in the process of defining a mechanism that allows = us to tag in room "coordinates" of captures to RTP streams.  In = its most trivial incarnation, that would allow us to assign the decoded RTP = streams to devices such as individual monitors.

 

RTP <id#1> comes from system 1, camera coordinates x, = y, z, upper right x, y, z, lower left x, y, z 

RTP <id#2> comes from system 1, camera coordinates (something else)

 

Note that we probably need a third and even a fourth point = for faithfully specifying a capture in 3D space, but that's not the subject = of this email, so don't beat me up on it right now. 

 

As for the capabilities of a renderer (not defined in the framework yet), it should be clear that a monitor can trivially display = more than one decoded RTP stream.  Insofar, the mapping should be per = part of a virtual display wall (or however you want to call it), and not per = physical screen.  I would hope that this is uncontroversial.

 

Things become more tricky when there is a video mixing MCU = in the picture, or when an endpoint creates a single RTP stream that contains information from multiple camera devices (through tiling, = picture-in-picture).  Here, we cannot meaningfully tag the a single geographic = information to a single RTP stream simply because the multiple video sequences were mixed = at the sample level, and the encoder didn't have a clue that it is actually = encoding data stemming from more than one camera.  However, the endpoint = system (or the MCU) know the geographic metadata associated with the composed = picture.  So what I'm proposing is that we allow a single RTP stream to have = more than one geometric information about the capture involved.  For = video, one would probably have to associate regions of the reconstructed video = stream (in the spatial dimension) with capture geographic information as currently proposed in the framework.

 

Example: a sending endpoint creating ONE RTP stream which = includes TWO captures, tiled horizontally

 

RTP <id#2> {

    bitstream coordinates x=3D0 to 959, y=3D0, to = 1080 , comes from system 1, camera coordinates x, y, z, x, y,z x, y, z

    bitstream coordinates x=3D960 to 1919, y=3D0 = to 1080, comes from system 1, camera coordinates (something = else) 

}

 

Architecturally, this system would best need to be = recursive, as it ought to be possible to throw an already composed image from MCU1 at = the input of MCU2, which scales it down and composes it with other images to = other ports.

 

Clear enough?

 

Thanks,

Stephan

 


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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue

 


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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue




_______________________________________________ clue = mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/clue

------_=_NextPart_001_01CC99E5.899E8424-- From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Thu Nov 3 10:27:36 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3556611E80DA for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:27:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.198, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UdouXNddPdrG for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qmta13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.59.243]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DD2111E8083 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omta18.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.90]) by qmta13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id sfRl1h0091wpRvQ5DhTbGu; Thu, 03 Nov 2011 17:27:35 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([24.62.109.41]) by omta18.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id shTb1h00W0tdiYw3ehTbH6; Thu, 03 Nov 2011 17:27:35 +0000 Message-ID: <4EB2CF05.4090707@alum.mit.edu> Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:27:33 -0400 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929 Thunderbird/7.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clue@ietf.org References: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE42473E@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com><0a0301cc94f3$19359ed0$4ba0dc70$%roni@huawei.com><44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D0AA@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com><033301cc9971$82402da0$86c088e0$%roni@huawei.com> <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D7D9@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> <1E49F3FD840FD147B563510DE0A819CDC3D8F0@XMB-AMS-214.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <1E49F3FD840FD147B563510DE0A819CDC3D8F0@XMB-AMS-214.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 17:27:36 -0000 On 11/3/11 12:31 AM, Andrew Pepperell (apeppere) wrote: > Roni, Mark, > > My feeling on the whole use of CSRCs to identify the SSRCs of the mixed > sources is that perhaps this shouldn't be relied upon for CLUE - I'm not > so convinced this works for multi-stream systems, it's possible to make > composed layouts that would require too many CSRCs to be included, plus > it only goes so far in describing the mix (for instance, it can't > include information on who's being placed where etc.). The idea here I > favor would be an additional optional provider -> consumer message to > describe (in as full terms as we like) the make-up of a composed (or > even switched) stream. This isn't to say that including CSRC values into > a mixed stream is wrong, just that it isn't necessarily sophisticated > enough for systems that would want to use CLUE to its fullest. I'm trying to understand what you are proposing. Are you saying that the information conveyed from producer to supplier would be the complete list of candidate sources for a capture, that *might* be mixed in? (Meanwhile, the actual ones being mixed in at any point in time will be available via the CSRC.) E.g. If you have a "loudest speaker" capture, then the description of the capture would include all the captures that are being selected among. Thanks, Paul From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Fri Nov 4 03:19:13 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C87821F8B8F for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2011 03:19:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.563 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.563 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.036, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fi3Rbr2uQzGI for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2011 03:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (mailgw10.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0800021F8C11 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2011 03:19:09 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3d-b7c26ae0000035b9-b3-4eb3bc1cc6b4 Received: from esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id AA.D7.13753.C1CB3BE4; Fri, 4 Nov 2011 11:19:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.91) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.137.0; Fri, 4 Nov 2011 11:19:08 +0100 Message-ID: <4EB3BC1A.1010909@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 11:19:06 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929 Thunderbird/7.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CLUE X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: [clue] Proposal for BFCP extension: Media Stream Selection X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: DISPATCH list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 10:19:13 -0000 Hi, My Colleagues and I have a proposal for an BFCP extension that enables end-points to perform Media Stream Selection. This is primarily targeted at centralized conferencing where an RTP mixer provides one or more streams based on the selection or mixing process of incoming streams. This extension would enable the end-point to have dynamic control over what media streams are included in the mix or selection by explicitly including, excluding or going back to mixer based selection. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-westerlund-dispatch-stream-selection/ The goal from our perspective would be to get the work chartered in BFCPbis WG. If you have input on this, please provide comments in the dispatch WG. Note (reply-to set for dispatch) Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From eckelcu@cisco.com Fri Nov 4 11:03:46 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 518F911E8085 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2011 11:03:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.334 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.334 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.265, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vzPu7VOcM824 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2011 11:03:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-3.cisco.com (mtv-iport-3.cisco.com [173.36.130.14]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96CBA11E807F for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2011 11:03:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=eckelcu@cisco.com; l=2271; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1320429825; x=1321639425; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:in-reply-to:references:from:to; bh=MB6uXoqAYyN46JjmrQPCwOh8drFZ0FHTbR+j8EcVG+w=; b=Loc1Vj8e1xYT1d09W23K1eytD8g352jJHPzFOjl2mPIU2yBt1SMba6ir mAKW/s8h8cuyDxv52q1DEY1Udd561a0/BT/YKjg0SnfGG7NbghpVZ/l/u MP9Cc1VEqfCFcTPd6AeJ9VfdCCDHN9i9I7AX5w5Mj7nENYsuunM/aSp40 M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AsMAAPQntE6rRDoH/2dsb2JhbAA6Cg6aAo5TgSCBBYFyAQEBAwEBAQEPARQJCjQXBAIBCA4DBAEBAQoGFwEGASYfCQgBAQQBEggah2AIlykBnksEhXqCTmMEiAqRTIt1Vw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,456,1315180800"; d="scan'208";a="12409677" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by mtv-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Nov 2011 18:03:45 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pA4I3jCE030215; Fri, 4 Nov 2011 18:03:45 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-234.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.111]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 4 Nov 2011 11:03:45 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 11:03:44 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4EB2CF05.4090707@alum.mit.edu> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion Thread-Index: AcyaTeTonwyu9xEERwy93mYZYcnhGAAzbALw References: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE42473E@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com><0a0301cc94f3$19359ed0$4ba0dc70$%roni@huawei.com><44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D0AA@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com><033301cc9971$82402da0$86c088e0$%roni@huawei.com><44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D7D9@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com><1E49F3FD840FD147B563510DE0A819CDC3D8F0@XMB-AMS-214.cisco.com> <4EB2CF05.4090707@alum.mit.edu> From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: "Paul Kyzivat" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Nov 2011 18:03:45.0162 (UTC) FILETIME=[180A4EA0:01CC9B1C] Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 18:03:46 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Paul Kyzivat > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 10:28 AM > To: clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition,switching discussion >=20 > On 11/3/11 12:31 AM, Andrew Pepperell (apeppere) wrote: > > Roni, Mark, > > > > My feeling on the whole use of CSRCs to identify the SSRCs of the mixed > > sources is that perhaps this shouldn't be relied upon for CLUE - I'm not > > so convinced this works for multi-stream systems, it's possible to make > > composed layouts that would require too many CSRCs to be included, plus > > it only goes so far in describing the mix (for instance, it can't > > include information on who's being placed where etc.). The idea here I > > favor would be an additional optional provider -> consumer message to > > describe (in as full terms as we like) the make-up of a composed (or > > even switched) stream. This isn't to say that including CSRC values into > > a mixed stream is wrong, just that it isn't necessarily sophisticated > > enough for systems that would want to use CLUE to its fullest. >=20 > I'm trying to understand what you are proposing. >=20 > Are you saying that the information conveyed from producer to supplier > would be the complete list of candidate sources for a capture, that > *might* be mixed in? (Meanwhile, the actual ones being mixed in at any > point in time will be available via the CSRC.) >=20 > E.g. If you have a "loudest speaker" capture, then the description of > the capture would include all the captures that are being selected among. Elaborating on this a bit more, I am envisioning that the CLUE mechanism would tell you the complete set of candidate sources. A CLUE update would be needed whenever a candidate source is added or removed. The RTP CSRC/SSRC would tell you in real-time the actual mix, which would be some subset of the candidate sources. As such, there will be some mapping of CSRC/SSRC value to candidate source ID. Cheers, Charles >=20 > Thanks, > Paul > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From apeppere@cisco.com Sat Nov 5 01:15:19 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 452C521F8549 for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2011 01:15:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Me2mIFm4+PqO for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2011 01:15:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EA4221F8548 for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2011 01:15:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=apeppere@cisco.com; l=2951; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1320480918; x=1321690518; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:in-reply-to:references:from:to; bh=DasngNzuQR4zAY6bSqqGT3jCbWFXMTqkeo4A7v9mv9o=; b=EgnVOkxjMCTkbCnaurndH04IH+TD6q5p96VVM+yxNHbOW7V3J05xQBEi PLbOnOznn8XfFqyS3VXXlYLPbZ+WGwyhcHLkX4z2+9vsn+SvT9hB1e91s QYfa2cgceX64MA50yWAhbMTfCvqygK0PfDqGvA/dwZzcRNeRCoH+1yZID w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AuMAAFnvtE6Q/khN/2dsb2JhbAA5Cg6aBo5UgSCBBYFyAQEBBAEBAQ8BFAkKNBcEAgEIDgMEAQEBCgYXAQYBJh8JCAEBBAESCBqHaJgLAZ4UBIV6gk5jBJlYi3o4 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,460,1315180800"; d="scan'208";a="120866489" Received: from ams-core-4.cisco.com ([144.254.72.77]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Nov 2011 08:15:16 +0000 Received: from xbh-ams-101.cisco.com (xbh-ams-101.cisco.com [144.254.74.71]) by ams-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pA58FGR2008831; Sat, 5 Nov 2011 08:15:16 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-214.cisco.com ([144.254.75.25]) by xbh-ams-101.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sat, 5 Nov 2011 09:15:16 +0100 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 09:15:15 +0100 Message-ID: <1E49F3FD840FD147B563510DE0A819CDCB0069@XMB-AMS-214.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4EB2CF05.4090707@alum.mit.edu> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion Thread-Index: AcyaTeRb8L8Dy8eFS+SlvKTsToYAmABQHIoA References: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE42473E@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com><0a0301cc94f3$19359ed0$4ba0dc70$%roni@huawei.com><44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D0AA@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com><033301cc9971$82402da0$86c088e0$%roni@huawei.com><44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D7D9@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com><1E49F3FD840FD147B563510DE0A819CDC3D8F0@XMB-AMS-214.cisco.com> <4EB2CF05.4090707@alum.mit.edu> From: "Andrew Pepperell (apeppere)" To: "Paul Kyzivat" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Nov 2011 08:15:16.0146 (UTC) FILETIME=[0CA3C920:01CC9B93] Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 08:15:19 -0000 Hi Paul, >Are you saying that the information conveyed from producer to supplier=20 >would be the complete list of candidate sources for a capture, that=20 >*might* be mixed in? (Meanwhile, the actual ones being mixed in at any=20 >point in time will be available via the CSRC.) Apologies for not being clearer here - I'm not proposing that the list of sources that *might* be mixed in is ever sent from provider to consumer, just an (optional) more fully featured version of essentially the CSRC information. For instance, a list of CSRCs alone wouldn't be able to tell the consumer about where other participants' capture streams had been placed within a composed layout, nor the equivalent left / right audio panning information about constituent audio streams. >E.g. If you have a "loudest speaker" capture, then the description of=20 >the capture would include all the captures that are being selected among. I'm not convinced that this would scale well, though I'd anticipate that information on all the other *participants* whose captures could at any time be the loudest speaker would be available via roster list protocols. Regards, Andy -----Original Message----- From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Paul Kyzivat Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 5:28 PM To: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition,switching discussion On 11/3/11 12:31 AM, Andrew Pepperell (apeppere) wrote: > Roni, Mark, > > My feeling on the whole use of CSRCs to identify the SSRCs of the mixed > sources is that perhaps this shouldn't be relied upon for CLUE - I'm not > so convinced this works for multi-stream systems, it's possible to make > composed layouts that would require too many CSRCs to be included, plus > it only goes so far in describing the mix (for instance, it can't > include information on who's being placed where etc.). The idea here I > favor would be an additional optional provider -> consumer message to > describe (in as full terms as we like) the make-up of a composed (or > even switched) stream. This isn't to say that including CSRC values into > a mixed stream is wrong, just that it isn't necessarily sophisticated > enough for systems that would want to use CLUE to its fullest. I'm trying to understand what you are proposing. Are you saying that the information conveyed from producer to supplier=20 would be the complete list of candidate sources for a capture, that=20 *might* be mixed in? (Meanwhile, the actual ones being mixed in at any=20 point in time will be available via the CSRC.) E.g. If you have a "loudest speaker" capture, then the description of=20 the capture would include all the captures that are being selected among. Thanks, Paul _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From apeppere@cisco.com Sat Nov 5 01:27:43 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C00621F86A6 for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2011 01:27:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VfxL0dnssKYf for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2011 01:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B135B21F86A0 for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2011 01:27:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=apeppere@cisco.com; l=3677; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1320481660; x=1321691260; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:in-reply-to:references:from:to; bh=CnuhtcqScwJE/6SulYYSGBS3zrG196L9AAQZGq0QN1I=; b=RiJ1lAYAmX7H0sADOFHxHc43cChZg+qKs7nqiBhkXecUS04XGMjipI+F gzEuLKZWDv7ey35BKqyoR4WFUkvUhaXXMV2C2eDayYWWbBHGlOtawfvyq X0BvnChTyPYAPvNWTYZ7PPER1TlSmWEhTx1hngzvokONmcurlp8+7ucP2 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AuMAAEPytE6Q/khL/2dsb2JhbAA5Cg6aBo5UgSCBBYFyAQEBAwEBAQEPARQJCi4GFwQCAQgRBAEBAQoGFwEGASYfCQgBAQQBEggah2AImBgBnhMEhXqCTmMEmViLejg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,460,1315180800"; d="scan'208";a="59242424" Received: from ams-core-2.cisco.com ([144.254.72.75]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Nov 2011 08:27:38 +0000 Received: from xbh-ams-201.cisco.com (xbh-ams-201.cisco.com [144.254.75.7]) by ams-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pA58Rc6Z023589; Sat, 5 Nov 2011 08:27:38 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-214.cisco.com ([144.254.75.25]) by xbh-ams-201.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sat, 5 Nov 2011 09:27:37 +0100 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 09:27:36 +0100 Message-ID: <1E49F3FD840FD147B563510DE0A819CDCB006B@XMB-AMS-214.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion Thread-Index: AcyaTeTonwyu9xEERwy93mYZYcnhGAAzbALwAB3j/aA= References: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE42473E@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com><0a0301cc94f3$19359ed0$4ba0dc70$%roni@huawei.com><44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D0AA@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com><033301cc9971$82402da0$86c088e0$%roni@huawei.com><44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D7D9@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com><1E49F3FD840FD147B563510DE0A819CDC3D8F0@XMB-AMS-214.cisco.com><4EB2CF05.4090707@alum.mit.edu> From: "Andrew Pepperell (apeppere)" To: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" , "Paul Kyzivat" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Nov 2011 08:27:37.0968 (UTC) FILETIME=[C6CCD700:01CC9B94] Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 08:27:43 -0000 >Elaborating on this a bit more, I am envisioning that the CLUE mechanism >would tell you the complete set of candidate sources. A CLUE update >would be needed whenever a candidate source is added or removed. The RTP >CSRC/SSRC would tell you in real-time the actual mix, which would be >some subset of the candidate sources. As such, there will be some >mapping of CSRC/SSRC value to candidate source ID. My feeling is that this would give scalability issues; I'd very keen, especially in the multipoint case, that it not end up effectively becoming a requirement that a middle box need keep every consumer informed of the complete set of media captures within the conference. To my mind, the roster list would be the place to tell devices of participants joining / leaving, with the finer-grained media capture selection being [able to be] taken care of by the middle box itself (to avoid cases of potentially multiple conflicting stream requests from consumers). Andy -----Original Message----- From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Charles Eckel (eckelcu) Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 6:04 PM To: Paul Kyzivat; clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition,switching discussion > -----Original Message----- > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Paul Kyzivat > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 10:28 AM > To: clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition,switching discussion >=20 > On 11/3/11 12:31 AM, Andrew Pepperell (apeppere) wrote: > > Roni, Mark, > > > > My feeling on the whole use of CSRCs to identify the SSRCs of the mixed > > sources is that perhaps this shouldn't be relied upon for CLUE - I'm not > > so convinced this works for multi-stream systems, it's possible to make > > composed layouts that would require too many CSRCs to be included, plus > > it only goes so far in describing the mix (for instance, it can't > > include information on who's being placed where etc.). The idea here I > > favor would be an additional optional provider -> consumer message to > > describe (in as full terms as we like) the make-up of a composed (or > > even switched) stream. This isn't to say that including CSRC values into > > a mixed stream is wrong, just that it isn't necessarily sophisticated > > enough for systems that would want to use CLUE to its fullest. >=20 > I'm trying to understand what you are proposing. >=20 > Are you saying that the information conveyed from producer to supplier > would be the complete list of candidate sources for a capture, that > *might* be mixed in? (Meanwhile, the actual ones being mixed in at any > point in time will be available via the CSRC.) >=20 > E.g. If you have a "loudest speaker" capture, then the description of > the capture would include all the captures that are being selected among. Elaborating on this a bit more, I am envisioning that the CLUE mechanism would tell you the complete set of candidate sources. A CLUE update would be needed whenever a candidate source is added or removed. The RTP CSRC/SSRC would tell you in real-time the actual mix, which would be some subset of the candidate sources. As such, there will be some mapping of CSRC/SSRC value to candidate source ID. Cheers, Charles >=20 > Thanks, > Paul > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Mon Nov 7 01:50:01 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02ADB21F8A97 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2011 01:50:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.566 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.566 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.033, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bCZm7-cUFezw for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2011 01:50:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (mailgw10.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09A4A21F8A95 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2011 01:49:59 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3d-b7c26ae0000035b9-84-4eb7a9c6c2a5 Received: from esessmw0197.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 51.D4.13753.6C9A7BE4; Mon, 7 Nov 2011 10:49:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0197.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.88) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.137.0; Mon, 7 Nov 2011 10:49:58 +0100 Message-ID: <4EB7A9C3.6070509@ericsson.com> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 10:49:55 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929 Thunderbird/7.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CLUE X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: [clue] AVTCORE and AVTEXT topics of potential relevance for CLUE WG X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 09:50:01 -0000 Hi, (As individual) As CLUE WG has started looking at RTP media transport I think the WG should be aware of discussions that is going to happen in the AVTCORE and AVTEXT that may be of potential interest for the WG members. The most important is the RTP Multiplexing architecture discussion in AVTCORE. This discusses the options and provide guidance when most appropriate to use RTP session versus using multiple SSRCs in the same RTP session. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-westerlund-avtcore-multiplex-architecture/ Another topic is the discussion of the impact and possible solutions for multiplexing multiple RTP sessions on the same lower layer transport, like UDP flow. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-westerlund-avtcore-transport-multiplexing/ This also touches on the proposal in RTCWEB on using multiple media types in a single RTP session. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lennox-rtcweb-rtp-media-type-mux/ The especially targeted at centralized conferencing there is proposals in AVTCORE for how to realize RTP Simulcast (in the meaning of multiple encodings of the same media source): https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-westerlund-avtcore-rtp-simulcast/ In AVTEXT there is a proposal intended to allow central mixers (main use case) to temporarily halt delivery of media streams from participants that the mixer doesn't use. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-westerlund-avtext-rtp-stream-pause/ I hope you can participate in the WGs to provide input from a CLUE perspective on these proposals. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From eckelcu@cisco.com Mon Nov 7 11:11:28 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6942021F84D7 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2011 11:11:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.361 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.361 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.238, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7kTVdy9-+cko for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2011 11:11:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-4.cisco.com (mtv-iport-4.cisco.com [173.36.130.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2C7121F84D6 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2011 11:11:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=eckelcu@cisco.com; l=4377; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1320693087; x=1321902687; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:in-reply-to:references:from:to; bh=wwzBzHCwTQd1631/8Hc+o6Cqv8me3TBbQjZsMittruQ=; b=aat7R1l9imeA87AfDKG8BQpdicT1MOmz0LmXdYt2nLrmOm2JSdF8dn1m 8SpzosrM2HrWDKWunIIOcv2ycHTZg3mzqkOMSiXN5UxIEbNcLK4B5TPvC y1AXsJche6D19V2s4adeJQ7/PckzqeO6Jb5iJ4YVThvWu8Kkr5dAordwU U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AskAAP8suE6rRDoJ/2dsb2JhbAA5Cg6ZeY5HgSOBBYFyAQEBBAEBAQ8BFAkKLgYXBAIBCBEEAQEBCgYXAQYBJh8JCAEBBAESCBqHaJkBAZ5kBIV6gk5jBIgLkVCLe1g X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,471,1315180800"; d="scan'208";a="12767227" Received: from mtv-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.58.9]) by mtv-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Nov 2011 19:11:27 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by mtv-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pA7JBRP3026863; Mon, 7 Nov 2011 19:11:27 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-234.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.111]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 7 Nov 2011 11:11:27 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 11:11:26 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1E49F3FD840FD147B563510DE0A819CDCB006B@XMB-AMS-214.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion Thread-Index: AcyaTeTonwyu9xEERwy93mYZYcnhGAAzbALwAB3j/aAAe0lMsA== References: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE42473E@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com><0a0301cc94f3$19359ed0$4ba0dc70$%roni@huawei.com><44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D0AA@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com><033301cc9971$82402da0$86c088e0$%roni@huawei.com><44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE55D7D9@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com><1E49F3FD840FD147B563510DE0A819CDC3D8F0@XMB-AMS-214.cisco.com><4EB2CF05.4090707@alum.mit.edu> <1E49F3FD840FD147B563510DE0A819CDCB006B@XMB-AMS-214.cisco.com> From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: "Andrew Pepperell (apeppere)" , "Paul Kyzivat" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Nov 2011 19:11:27.0544 (UTC) FILETIME=[0CA5DB80:01CC9D81] Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 19:11:28 -0000 I think that is fine, assuming you have a way to identify a participant in the roster list by its RTP SDES CNAME value. You can then use that to associate the SSRC/CSRC values in the media streams with each participant/CNAME. Cheers, Charles > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Pepperell (apeppere) > Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 1:28 AM > To: Charles Eckel (eckelcu); Paul Kyzivat; clue@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition,switching discussion >=20 > >Elaborating on this a bit more, I am envisioning that the CLUE mechanism > >would tell you the complete set of candidate sources. A CLUE update > >would be needed whenever a candidate source is added or removed. The RTP > >CSRC/SSRC would tell you in real-time the actual mix, which would be > >some subset of the candidate sources. As such, there will be some > >mapping of CSRC/SSRC value to candidate source ID. >=20 > My feeling is that this would give scalability issues; I'd very keen, especially in the multipoint > case, that it not end up effectively becoming a requirement that a middle box need keep every consumer > informed of the complete set of media captures within the conference. To my mind, the roster list > would be the place to tell devices of participants joining / leaving, with the finer-grained media > capture selection being [able to be] taken care of by the middle box itself (to avoid cases of > potentially multiple conflicting stream requests from consumers). >=20 > Andy >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Charles Eckel (eckelcu) > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 6:04 PM > To: Paul Kyzivat; clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition,switching discussion >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of Paul Kyzivat > > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 10:28 AM > > To: clue@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [clue] Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition,switching > discussion > > > > On 11/3/11 12:31 AM, Andrew Pepperell (apeppere) wrote: > > > Roni, Mark, > > > > > > My feeling on the whole use of CSRCs to identify the SSRCs of the > mixed > > > sources is that perhaps this shouldn't be relied upon for CLUE - I'm > not > > > so convinced this works for multi-stream systems, it's possible to > make > > > composed layouts that would require too many CSRCs to be included, > plus > > > it only goes so far in describing the mix (for instance, it can't > > > include information on who's being placed where etc.). The idea here > I > > > favor would be an additional optional provider -> consumer message > to > > > describe (in as full terms as we like) the make-up of a composed (or > > > even switched) stream. This isn't to say that including CSRC values > into > > > a mixed stream is wrong, just that it isn't necessarily > sophisticated > > > enough for systems that would want to use CLUE to its fullest. > > > > I'm trying to understand what you are proposing. > > > > Are you saying that the information conveyed from producer to supplier > > would be the complete list of candidate sources for a capture, that > > *might* be mixed in? (Meanwhile, the actual ones being mixed in at any > > point in time will be available via the CSRC.) > > > > E.g. If you have a "loudest speaker" capture, then the description of > > the capture would include all the captures that are being selected > among. >=20 > Elaborating on this a bit more, I am envisioning that the CLUE mechanism > would tell you the complete set of candidate sources. A CLUE update > would be needed whenever a candidate source is added or removed. The RTP > CSRC/SSRC would tell you in real-time the actual mix, which would be > some subset of the candidate sources. As such, there will be some > mapping of CSRC/SSRC value to candidate source ID. >=20 > Cheers, > Charles >=20 > > > > Thanks, > > Paul > > _______________________________________________ > > clue mailing list > > clue@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Mon Nov 7 14:51:22 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EE1F21F84A6 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2011 14:51:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.409 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.409 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.190, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EdGGg7ftbCdv for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2011 14:51:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.32]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6AC721F8419 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2011 14:51:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta23.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.74]) by qmta03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id uM0f1h0031c6gX853NrMRq; Mon, 07 Nov 2011 22:51:21 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([24.62.229.5]) by omta23.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id uNrD1h01g07duvL3jNrHZ3; Mon, 07 Nov 2011 22:51:20 +0000 Message-ID: <4EB860DF.4000609@alum.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 17:51:11 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929 Thunderbird/7.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CLUE References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [clue] New draft on Transport Options for Clue X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 22:51:22 -0000 [as individual] Here are some comments I accumulated while reading through this draft: There are some character set issues in this draft, at least as its represented in my browser. I'm seeing things like: "Oon the wireO". The first and last characters there are (to me) "O". I presume they are intended to be some sort of quote, and that there is a character set conversion problem. There is a paragraph beginning "In version -00 ... we ...", implying that this *is* version -00. But its now -01. Regarding the CLUE messages: I'm lacking a clear specification of the sequence in which these messages may be sent. IMO a state machine would be helpful to clarify this. 3.1 - use of UPDATE The limitation on use of update is really wrt o/a. (If an UPDATE contains an offer, and answer must be in the response to the update.) It is really irrelevant to other uses of UPDATE, to convey things other than o/a. You should not exclude it just for this reason. But I agree INFO might be a better choice for tunneling clue messages in SIP, assuming its not necessary to send them with the initial INVITE. 3.2 Another issue here is reliable message delivery. UDP doesn't provide it. Defining it in a one-off fashion on top of UDP is a pain, and a distraction from the real work of CLUE. ISTM it would be best to reference some existing reliable transport that has suitable properties. (Perhaps one layered on UDP.) 3.3 The issue of keep alive messages seems something of a red herring. *any* reliable mechanism is likely to require keep alives. 4.1 - Using SDP This alternative is more "encumbered" than the others, because using SDP with SIP implies using the o/a model, which doesn't currently align well with the framework. So it needs to be considered in a different light than the others. For instance, use of SDP means tunneling in sip messages, and then SIP handles the transport issues. It also implies using SIP solutions to message size - requiring use of TCP for large messages. Thanks, Paul On 10/24/11 11:44 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > We just published a draft on Transport Options for > Clue, draft-wenger-clue-transport-01 > (it's -01 as I fixed some issues with the author list in -00). > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wenger-clue-transport-01 : > A new version of I-D, draft-wenger-clue-transport-01.txt has been > successfully submitted by Marshall Eubanks and posted to the IETF > repository. > > Filename: draft-wenger-clue-transport > Revision: 01 > Title: Transport Options for Clue > Creation date: 2011-10-24 > WG ID: Individual Submission > Number of pages: 9 > > It clearly needs some work... > > Regards > Marshall > > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Wed Nov 9 06:46:04 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4520021F8C39 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 06:46:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.446 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.446 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.153, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VekN78bQFNZL for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 06:46:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qy0-f172.google.com (mail-qy0-f172.google.com [209.85.216.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37D1921F8C28 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 06:46:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyl16 with SMTP id 16so4700044qyl.10 for ; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 06:45:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=knrnHA3IjRdVzfaTuZCD+XrBhCByc9irYpVOvNF7oec=; b=xALrJqxBalBU+eEyKy4BHRN0TmoLJsUqRmafq+I5+XFJYv1Okn1si+2YlZ/2jl1RAs /rsQ+7iMYtZZqUYKyxFgjEnUGmK84SzEtJIQvCwpwg5Ix6zFpgMTv3IzL9e0hqMN5t16 iuyKwM09S/HGXXXxiLqiVVm7FHJK5pLqAWP8U= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.77.196 with SMTP id u4mr689649obw.19.1320849959622; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 06:45:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.14.65 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 06:45:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4EBA594C.1060406@levkowetz.com> References: <4EBA594C.1060406@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 09:45:59 -0500 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: clue , Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [clue] Fwd: Etherpad for collaborative note-taking X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:46:04 -0000 Hello; ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Henrik Levkowetz Date: Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 5:43 AM Subject: Etherpad for collaborative note-taking To: WG Chairs Hi, Acting on a recent suggestion from Peter Saint-Andre (on ietf@ietf.org), I've now set up an instance of Etherpad Lite (http://etherpad.org/) on one of the tools servers, and used it to make a collaborative notes document available for all WGs with a posted agenda for IETF-82. You'll find it both linked in and embedded in the minutes page for your WG on tools.ietf.org; for an example see http://tools.ietf.org/wg/clue/minutes I am not sure why he used us as an example, but given our general experienc= e with collaborative solutions we should make sure that we make use of this. Also, Paul Hoffman, whom I am sure most of you know, has been awarded a con= tract for the development of functional specifications for Remote Participation Services. If you have suggestions on how we can improve remote participation, please = let him know. If you would like to discuss this with him, either button-hole him at the meeting or let me know and several of us could meet with him at once. Regards Marshall The note documents will be visible on the minutes page until you submit official minutes for the meeting, at which time they will be replaced by the minutes. =A0The etherpad documents will still be accessible directly at the etherpad URL for some time after the meeting, but will be archived and replaced by new empty documents before the next meeting. Comments and suggestions are welcome! Best regards, =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Henrik From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Wed Nov 9 07:21:38 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B8D121F8ADE for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 07:21:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.417 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.417 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.182, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W3W2Mq+7ZVD7 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 07:21:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta07.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta07.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 328AD21F8906 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 07:21:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta17.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.89]) by qmta07.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id v1D91h0021vXlb8573MZ5p; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 15:21:33 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([24.62.229.5]) by omta17.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id v3MZ1h00e07duvL3d3MZZH; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 15:21:33 +0000 Message-ID: <4EBA9A7B.7080308@alum.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 10:21:31 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929 Thunderbird/7.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clue@ietf.org References: <4EBA594C.1060406@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [clue] Fwd: Etherpad for collaborative note-taking X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 15:21:38 -0000 To all planning on attending the Taipei meeting in the flesh: Mary and I were just discussing this. It seems a promising tool for taking meeting notes, but its new to me and I don't know how much to trust it. I played with it for a few moments and while it seemed to work I was "disconnected" several times. I'm also unsure of the best way to use this. We typically want multiple note takers so we don't miss anything and get accurate notes. But I wonder if having two note takers collaborating on the *same* text might be distracting. (Perhaps it would be better to have two note takers working on independent notes in separate "regions" of the document.) Are there a couple of people who will volunteer to try this out during the CLUE session? And somebody else to take notes independently in case this goes wrong? I'm open to suggestions for the best way to exploit this tool. Anyone who has ideas please chime in. Thanks, Paul On 11/9/11 9:45 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > Hello; > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Henrik Levkowetz > Date: Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 5:43 AM > Subject: Etherpad for collaborative note-taking > To: WG Chairs > > > Hi, > > Acting on a recent suggestion from Peter Saint-Andre (on ietf@ietf.org), > I've now set up an instance of Etherpad Lite (http://etherpad.org/) on > one of the tools servers, and used it to make a collaborative notes > document available for all WGs with a posted agenda for IETF-82. > > You'll find it both linked in and embedded in the minutes page for your WG > on tools.ietf.org; for an example see http://tools.ietf.org/wg/clue/minutes > > I am not sure why he used us as an example, but given our general experience > with collaborative solutions we should make sure that > we make use of this. > > Also, Paul Hoffman, whom I am sure most of you know, has been awarded a contract > for the development of functional specifications for Remote > Participation Services. > If you have suggestions on how we can improve remote participation, please let > him know. If you would like to discuss this with him, either > button-hole him at the > meeting or let me know and several of us could meet with him at once. > > Regards > Marshall > > The note documents will be visible on the minutes page until you submit > official minutes for the meeting, at which time they will be replaced > by the minutes. The etherpad documents will still be accessible directly > at the etherpad URL for some time after the meeting, but will be archived > and replaced by new empty documents before the next meeting. > > Comments and suggestions are welcome! > > > Best regards, > > Henrik > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Wed Nov 9 07:24:23 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56B9F21F8B7F for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 07:24:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.149, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xEgEmGg9g6Fx for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 07:24:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ey0-f172.google.com (mail-ey0-f172.google.com [209.85.215.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 181D321F8B14 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 07:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by eyg24 with SMTP id 24so1782092eyg.31 for ; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:24:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oGhJ3A4l9+6lMMT7yMqWqokocH7sDS7LMktSahE4YuU=; b=anK1wsSEGLIsDgX/Ix6d5EdgHXBe4wbOSnEBskYEW3AMNHwCmo+JAdXi7W06jHOSjF Ln6sfLdgj53oeZqDtC5I28gOepnqPkKAzuysDXyQ4LyWPxfc+4H659acel38F9TIpYB8 D54d/ZEnyUhpA9NRYcnVt0gOzIwV/crrgVEtA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.2.164 with SMTP id 4mr787639obv.49.1320852257306; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:24:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.14.65 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 07:24:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4EBA9A7B.7080308@alum.mit.edu> References: <4EBA594C.1060406@levkowetz.com> <4EBA9A7B.7080308@alum.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 10:24:17 -0500 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: Paul Kyzivat Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Fwd: Etherpad for collaborative note-taking X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 15:24:23 -0000 On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote= : > To all planning on attending the Taipei meeting in the flesh: > > Mary and I were just discussing this. It seems a promising tool for takin= g > meeting notes, but its new to me and I don't know how much to trust it. I > played with it for a few moments and while it seemed to work I was > "disconnected" several times. > > I'm also unsure of the best way to use this. We typically want multiple n= ote > takers so we don't miss anything and get accurate notes. But I wonder if > having two note takers collaborating on the *same* text might be > distracting. (Perhaps it would be better to have two note takers working = on > independent notes in separate "regions" of the document.) > > Are there a couple of people who will volunteer to try this out during th= e > CLUE session? And somebody else to take notes independently in case this > goes wrong? I still think taking note as a jabber scribe is likely to be better, but I would be glad to try this out "in situ". Marshall > > I'm open to suggestions for the best way to exploit this tool. Anyone who > has ideas please chime in. > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Thanks, > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Paul > > On 11/9/11 9:45 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >> >> Hello; > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Henrik Levkowetz >> Date: Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 5:43 AM >> Subject: Etherpad for collaborative note-taking >> To: WG Chairs >> >> >> Hi, >> >> Acting on a recent suggestion from Peter Saint-Andre (on ietf@ietf.org), >> I've now set up an instance of Etherpad Lite (http://etherpad.org/) on >> one of the tools servers, and used it to make a collaborative notes >> document available for all WGs with a posted agenda for IETF-82. >> >> You'll find it both linked in and embedded in the minutes page for your = WG >> on tools.ietf.org; for an example see >> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/clue/minutes >> >> I am not sure why he used us as an example, but given our general >> experience >> with collaborative solutions we should make sure that >> we make use of this. >> >> Also, Paul Hoffman, whom I am sure most of you know, has been awarded a >> contract >> for the development of functional specifications for Remote >> Participation Services. >> If you have suggestions on how we can improve remote participation, plea= se >> let >> him know. If you would like to discuss this with him, either >> button-hole him at the >> meeting or let me know and several of us could meet with him at once. >> >> Regards >> Marshall >> >> The note documents will be visible on the minutes page until you submit >> official minutes for the meeting, at which time they will be replaced >> by the minutes. =A0The etherpad documents will still be accessible direc= tly >> at the etherpad URL for some time after the meeting, but will be archive= d >> and replaced by new empty documents before the next meeting. >> >> Comments and suggestions are welcome! >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Henrik >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > From stpeter@stpeter.im Wed Nov 9 07:30:17 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96B6821F8C3D for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 07:30:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S5BbcChZHoOG for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 07:30:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C5D521F8C20 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 07:30:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from normz.cisco.com (unknown [72.163.0.129]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 28217420B9; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:36:09 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4EBA9C83.20904@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 08:30:11 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Kyzivat References: <4EBA594C.1060406@levkowetz.com> <4EBA9A7B.7080308@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <4EBA9A7B.7080308@alum.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Fwd: Etherpad for collaborative note-taking X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 15:30:17 -0000 On 11/9/11 8:21 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > To all planning on attending the Taipei meeting in the flesh: > > Mary and I were just discussing this. It seems a promising tool for > taking meeting notes, but its new to me and I don't know how much to > trust it. I played with it for a few moments and while it seemed to work > I was "disconnected" several times. > > I'm also unsure of the best way to use this. We typically want multiple > note takers so we don't miss anything and get accurate notes. But I > wonder if having two note takers collaborating on the *same* text might > be distracting. (Perhaps it would be better to have two note takers > working on independent notes in separate "regions" of the document.) > > Are there a couple of people who will volunteer to try this out during > the CLUE session? And somebody else to take notes independently in case > this goes wrong? > > I'm open to suggestions for the best way to exploit this tool. Anyone > who has ideas please chime in. Those of us who take notes during W3C/IETF liaison calls have been using this for a while. It works great since it enables multiple people to take notes, make corrections, amplify upon text that is too terse, etc. IMHO it's quite intuitive and easy to use. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Wed Nov 9 07:42:07 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E479D21F8B03 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 07:42:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.419 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.419 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.180, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qbNjd0W1c-3j for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 07:42:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.32]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6373B21F848B for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 07:42:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta17.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.89]) by qmta03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id v0uF1h0031vXlb8533i7TD; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 15:42:07 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([24.62.229.5]) by omta17.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id v3i61h01E07duvL3d3i6Zy; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 15:42:07 +0000 Message-ID: <4EBA9F4D.30905@alum.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 10:42:05 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929 Thunderbird/7.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Saint-Andre References: <4EBA594C.1060406@levkowetz.com> <4EBA9A7B.7080308@alum.mit.edu> <4EBA9C83.20904@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <4EBA9C83.20904@stpeter.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Fwd: Etherpad for collaborative note-taking X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 15:42:08 -0000 On 11/9/11 10:30 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > Those of us who take notes during W3C/IETF liaison calls have been using > this for a while. It works great since it enables multiple people to > take notes, make corrections, amplify upon text that is too terse, etc. > IMHO it's quite intuitive and easy to use. Peter, Can you fill us in on how you cooperate in using it? I'm concerned with "too many cooks spoil the broth". Does one person take the lead, with others filling in missing details and corrections? What happens if two people try to correct the same thing concurrently? Thanks, Paul From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Wed Nov 9 08:10:09 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 816C221F8C68 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:10:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.458 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.458 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.141, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wc9i5rywxO09 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:10:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-dy0-f44.google.com (mail-dy0-f44.google.com [209.85.220.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70B4421F8C83 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:10:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by dyl37 with SMTP id 37so85609dyl.31 for ; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 08:10:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=P8tKbqbMeT1xJmNQBZdW0Tkz5+Mn9jhzefLJTkv0vQY=; b=afOqUY28qRpOta1YAOp/vOF+HO9a5PvOn9Ve0nACQs0rXmLhXucNf6m5U2PXdP2vEi IDbAwStHn4dKVvg6RQuniHTOQJo377fn8kox0++XYTa4NUMxZ99DzEFPSKjIcpU8bJL0 VsAKcV/S9YTnbJ01eIIhRpgUYt4RBpk70CGbM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.192.103 with SMTP id hf7mr901999obc.29.1320854999823; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 08:09:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.14.65 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:09:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4EBA9C83.20904@stpeter.im> References: <4EBA594C.1060406@levkowetz.com> <4EBA9A7B.7080308@alum.mit.edu> <4EBA9C83.20904@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 11:09:59 -0500 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: Peter Saint-Andre Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Fwd: Etherpad for collaborative note-taking X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 16:10:09 -0000 On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 11/9/11 8:21 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >> >> To all planning on attending the Taipei meeting in the flesh: >> >> Mary and I were just discussing this. It seems a promising tool for >> taking meeting notes, but its new to me and I don't know how much to >> trust it. I played with it for a few moments and while it seemed to work >> I was "disconnected" several times. >> >> I'm also unsure of the best way to use this. We typically want multiple >> note takers so we don't miss anything and get accurate notes. But I >> wonder if having two note takers collaborating on the *same* text might >> be distracting. (Perhaps it would be better to have two note takers >> working on independent notes in separate "regions" of the document.) >> >> Are there a couple of people who will volunteer to try this out during >> the CLUE session? And somebody else to take notes independently in case >> this goes wrong? >> >> I'm open to suggestions for the best way to exploit this tool. Anyone >> who has ideas please chime in. > > Those of us who take notes during W3C/IETF liaison calls have been using > this for a while. It works great since it enables multiple people to take > notes, make corrections, amplify upon text that is too terse, etc. IMHO it's > quite intuitive and easy to use. > The cool thing about jabber scribing is that if you miss something and post something like The proposal would conflict with RFC ? someone is highly likely to fill in the blank in real time. (To use modern jargon, you have crowd-sourced your proof-reading.) Is any attendee free to do this with this tool, or only approved scribes ? Marshall > Peter > > -- > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > From stpeter@stpeter.im Wed Nov 9 08:12:22 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A79B321F8C65 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:12:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yaAWwVthu5zR for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:12:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7042821F8C4C for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:12:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from normz.cisco.com (unknown [72.163.0.129]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 94B2F420DE; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 09:18:13 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4EBAA660.5080708@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 09:12:16 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marshall Eubanks References: <4EBA594C.1060406@levkowetz.com> <4EBA9A7B.7080308@alum.mit.edu> <4EBA9C83.20904@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Fwd: Etherpad for collaborative note-taking X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 16:12:22 -0000 On 11/9/11 9:09 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 11/9/11 8:21 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >>> >>> To all planning on attending the Taipei meeting in the flesh: >>> >>> Mary and I were just discussing this. It seems a promising tool for >>> taking meeting notes, but its new to me and I don't know how much to >>> trust it. I played with it for a few moments and while it seemed to work >>> I was "disconnected" several times. >>> >>> I'm also unsure of the best way to use this. We typically want multiple >>> note takers so we don't miss anything and get accurate notes. But I >>> wonder if having two note takers collaborating on the *same* text might >>> be distracting. (Perhaps it would be better to have two note takers >>> working on independent notes in separate "regions" of the document.) >>> >>> Are there a couple of people who will volunteer to try this out during >>> the CLUE session? And somebody else to take notes independently in case >>> this goes wrong? >>> >>> I'm open to suggestions for the best way to exploit this tool. Anyone >>> who has ideas please chime in. >> >> Those of us who take notes during W3C/IETF liaison calls have been using >> this for a while. It works great since it enables multiple people to take >> notes, make corrections, amplify upon text that is too terse, etc. IMHO it's >> quite intuitive and easy to use. >> > > The cool thing about jabber scribing is that if you miss something and > post something like > > The proposal would conflict with RFC ? > > someone is highly likely to fill in the blank in real time. (To use > modern jargon, you have crowd-sourced your > proof-reading.) > > Is any attendee free to do this with this tool, or only approved scribes ? Much as I love Jabber, I've found that people can scribe more efficiently in Etherpad (yes, you crowdsource the note-taking, anyone can help, and you can see the entire set of notes at one view instead of having the notes interspersed with questions and general banter as in a typical Jabber chatroom). YMMV, naturally. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Wed Nov 9 08:13:40 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB2C21F8C84 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:13:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.461 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.461 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.138, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 297Akdfb4NLX for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:13:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vw0-f44.google.com (mail-vw0-f44.google.com [209.85.212.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A1F321F8BC5 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:13:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws5 with SMTP id 5so1850828vws.31 for ; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 08:13:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bKozdWfE5mck72lNjl+SPG1TLWYcHJwiB5WR8w9xlfI=; b=cCKzF2P/ezSXRQZa4ARBDUhUpuKcEI0JC5GjIBU33uyDV6M18WP71TMrn7opH7OSnz dvjsTG1PoWf+h3QZEtJmAKjvOouRcUI+K2WlR9Hg/RHhnCtPt76UXJ1ai3HGDFr7nioF RriRPQv5yCEqLZb2UCmw8EokK8DZGg5AwYG68= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.50.8 with SMTP id y8mr908702obn.79.1320855211843; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 08:13:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.14.65 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:13:31 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4EBAA660.5080708@stpeter.im> References: <4EBA594C.1060406@levkowetz.com> <4EBA9A7B.7080308@alum.mit.edu> <4EBA9C83.20904@stpeter.im> <4EBAA660.5080708@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 11:13:31 -0500 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: Peter Saint-Andre Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Fwd: Etherpad for collaborative note-taking X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 16:13:40 -0000 On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 11:12 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wro= te: > On 11/9/11 9:09 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >> >> On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Peter Saint-Andre >> =A0wrote: >>> >>> On 11/9/11 8:21 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >>>> >>>> To all planning on attending the Taipei meeting in the flesh: >>>> >>>> Mary and I were just discussing this. It seems a promising tool for >>>> taking meeting notes, but its new to me and I don't know how much to >>>> trust it. I played with it for a few moments and while it seemed to wo= rk >>>> I was "disconnected" several times. >>>> >>>> I'm also unsure of the best way to use this. We typically want multipl= e >>>> note takers so we don't miss anything and get accurate notes. But I >>>> wonder if having two note takers collaborating on the *same* text migh= t >>>> be distracting. (Perhaps it would be better to have two note takers >>>> working on independent notes in separate "regions" of the document.) >>>> >>>> Are there a couple of people who will volunteer to try this out during >>>> the CLUE session? And somebody else to take notes independently in cas= e >>>> this goes wrong? >>>> >>>> I'm open to suggestions for the best way to exploit this tool. Anyone >>>> who has ideas please chime in. >>> >>> Those of us who take notes during W3C/IETF liaison calls have been usin= g >>> this for a while. It works great since it enables multiple people to ta= ke >>> notes, make corrections, amplify upon text that is too terse, etc. IMHO >>> it's >>> quite intuitive and easy to use. >>> >> >> The cool thing about jabber scribing is that if you miss something and >> post something like >> >> The proposal would conflict with RFC ? >> >> someone is highly likely to fill in the blank in real time. (To use >> modern jargon, you have crowd-sourced your >> proof-reading.) >> >> Is any attendee free to do this with this tool, or only approved scribes= ? > > Much as I love Jabber, I've found that people can scribe more efficiently= in > Etherpad (yes, you crowdsource the note-taking, anyone can help, and you = can > see the entire set of notes at one view instead of having the notes > interspersed with questions and general banter as in a typical Jabber > chatroom). > > YMMV, naturally. > Well, I look forward to trying it. I expect to present the transport draft, and ask questions from time to time, so I will need a backup. Marshall > Peter > > -- > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ > > > From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Wed Nov 9 08:24:15 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AF4A21F8C7E for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:24:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.42 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.42 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.179, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mcyfCz7zW41Z for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:24:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta07.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta07.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9B1121F8C75 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.52]) by qmta07.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id v4N21h00917dt5G574QFJ5; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 16:24:15 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([24.62.229.5]) by omta13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id v4QE1h00x07duvL3Z4QEVE; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 16:24:15 +0000 Message-ID: <4EBAA92D.50409@alum.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 11:24:13 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929 Thunderbird/7.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marshall Eubanks References: <4EBA594C.1060406@levkowetz.com> <4EBA9A7B.7080308@alum.mit.edu> <4EBA9C83.20904@stpeter.im> <4EBAA660.5080708@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Fwd: Etherpad for collaborative note-taking X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 16:24:15 -0000 On 11/9/11 11:13 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 11:12 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 11/9/11 9:09 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Peter Saint-Andre >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> On 11/9/11 8:21 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >>>>> >>>>> To all planning on attending the Taipei meeting in the flesh: >>>>> >>>>> Mary and I were just discussing this. It seems a promising tool for >>>>> taking meeting notes, but its new to me and I don't know how much to >>>>> trust it. I played with it for a few moments and while it seemed to work >>>>> I was "disconnected" several times. >>>>> >>>>> I'm also unsure of the best way to use this. We typically want multiple >>>>> note takers so we don't miss anything and get accurate notes. But I >>>>> wonder if having two note takers collaborating on the *same* text might >>>>> be distracting. (Perhaps it would be better to have two note takers >>>>> working on independent notes in separate "regions" of the document.) >>>>> >>>>> Are there a couple of people who will volunteer to try this out during >>>>> the CLUE session? And somebody else to take notes independently in case >>>>> this goes wrong? >>>>> >>>>> I'm open to suggestions for the best way to exploit this tool. Anyone >>>>> who has ideas please chime in. >>>> >>>> Those of us who take notes during W3C/IETF liaison calls have been using >>>> this for a while. It works great since it enables multiple people to take >>>> notes, make corrections, amplify upon text that is too terse, etc. IMHO >>>> it's >>>> quite intuitive and easy to use. >>>> >>> >>> The cool thing about jabber scribing is that if you miss something and >>> post something like >>> >>> The proposal would conflict with RFC ? >>> >>> someone is highly likely to fill in the blank in real time. (To use >>> modern jargon, you have crowd-sourced your >>> proof-reading.) >>> >>> Is any attendee free to do this with this tool, or only approved scribes ? >> >> Much as I love Jabber, I've found that people can scribe more efficiently in >> Etherpad (yes, you crowdsource the note-taking, anyone can help, and you can >> see the entire set of notes at one view instead of having the notes >> interspersed with questions and general banter as in a typical Jabber >> chatroom). >> >> YMMV, naturally. >> > > Well, I look forward to trying it. > > I expect to present the transport draft, and ask questions from time > to time, so I will need a backup. Of course with this tool *everyone* can fill in details. But yes, we need at least two committed to this. I'm still not clear on the multiuser protocol for this. ISTM that *somebody* needs to be seen as in the lead, or else we will get multiple concurrent entries of the same stuff. Thanks, Paul From ietf@meetecho.com Wed Nov 9 08:33:15 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C82B21F8C41 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:33:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.719 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.719 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sy2q9xPKvzFs for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:33:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpw2.aruba.it (smtpipvs3.aruba.it [62.149.128.188]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D937421F8C39 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:33:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 27141 invoked by uid 89); 9 Nov 2011 16:33:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO aruba.it) (62.149.158.90) by smtpw2.ad.aruba.it with SMTP; 9 Nov 2011 16:33:06 -0000 Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 17:33:06 +0100 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4EBAA92D.50409@alum.mit.edu> References: =?iso-8859-1?q?=3C4EBA594C=2E1060406=40levkowetz=2Ecom=3E_=3CCAJNg7VL?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ZUxYyZU=2BukAYDONfJqZNwFZNe2vxYF7SuHmT=2DMUYhDw=40mail?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2Egmail=2Ecom=3E_=3C4EBA9A7B=2E7080308=40alum=2Emit?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2Eedu=3E_=3C4EBA9C83=2E20904=40stpeter=2Eim=3E_=3CCAJ?= =?iso-8859-1?q?Ng7VLLnvwd=3DLUDvxqOjra0Lzurick0vC5UOCmMWOajMLzwEw=40m?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ail=2Egmail=2Ecom=3E_=3C4EBAA660=2E5080708=40stpeter?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2Eim=3E_=3CCAJNg7VLRcw9eyOfq=2Dq10Kikz=5FjoBm1tw7VhMB?= =?iso-8859-1?q?nEfBafjamGNLw=40mail=2Egmail=2Ecom=3E_=3C4EBAA92D=2E50?= =?iso-8859-1?q?409=40alum=2Emit=2Eedu=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Meetecho IETF support" To: pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu X-XaM3-API-Version: V3(R2) X-SenderIP: 143.225.229.189 X-Spam-Rating: smtpw2.ad.aruba.it 1.6.2 0/1000/N Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Fwd: Etherpad for collaborative note-taking X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 16:33:15 -0000 FYI, Meetecho does provide a collaborative editing tool, too (see http://= ietf82.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Web_Client#TextEditor for a brief desc= ription), even if it can currently be used only when the session is actua= lly ongoing. =0AOur approach is slightly different on two aspects:=0A1. w= e rely on a token, thus allowing only one person at a time to edit the do= cument;=0A2. modifications are not propagated in real time, but a "commit= " is sent manually by the editor or automatically every 10 seconds, and t= hen displayed to all participants.=0A=0AFurthermore, at any time, the cur= rent revision of the document can be exported to either a pdf, rtf or htm= l file and sent to all participants.=0A=0AI'm informing you since the cha= irs asked for Meetecho support for this session...=0A=0ACheers,=0AAlessan= dro=0A=C2=A0=0ADa: clue-bounces@ietf.org=0AA: "Marshall Eubanks" marshall= .eubanks@gmail.com=0ACc: clue@ietf.org=0AData: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 11:24:13 = -0500=0AOggetto: Re: [clue] Fwd: Etherpad for collaborative note-taking=0A= =0A> On 11/9/11 11:13 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote:=0A> > On Wed, Nov 9, 20= 11 at 11:12 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:=0A> >> On 11/9/11 9:09 AM, Mars= hall Eubanks wrote:=0A> >>>=0A> >>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Pete= r Saint-Andre=0A> >>> wrote:=0A> >>>>=0A> >>>> On 11/9/11 8:21 AM, Paul= Kyzivat wrote:=0A> >>>>>=0A> >>>>> To all planning on attending the Taip= ei meeting in the flesh:=0A> >>>>>=0A> >>>>> Mary and I were just discuss= ing this. It seems a promising tool for=0A> >>>>> taking meeting notes, b= ut its new to me and I don't know how much to=0A> >>>>> trust it. I playe= d with it for a few moments and while it seemed to work=0A> >>>>> I was "= disconnected" several times.=0A> >>>>>=0A> >>>>> I'm also unsure of the b= est way to use this. We typically want multiple=0A> >>>>> note takers so = we don't miss anything and get accurate notes. But I=0A> >>>>> wonder if = having two note takers collaborating on the *same* text might=0A> >>>>> b= e distracting. (Perhaps it would be better to have two note takers=0A> >>= >>> working on independent notes in separate "regions" of the document.)=0A= > >>>>>=0A> >>>>> Are there a couple of people who will volunteer to try = this out during=0A> >>>>> the CLUE session? And somebody else to take not= es independently in case=0A> >>>>> this goes wrong?=0A> >>>>>=0A> >>>>> I= 'm open to suggestions for the best way to exploit this tool. Anyone=0A> = >>>>> who has ideas please chime in.=0A> >>>>=0A> >>>> Those of us who ta= ke notes during W3C/IETF liaison calls have been using=0A> >>>> this for = a while. It works great since it enables multiple people to take=0A> >>>>= notes, make corrections, amplify upon text that is too terse, etc. IMHO=0A= > >>>> it's=0A> >>>> quite intuitive and easy to use.=0A> >>>>=0A> >>>=0A= > >>> The cool thing about jabber scribing is that if you miss something = and=0A> >>> post something like=0A> >>>=0A> >>> The proposal would confli= ct with RFC ?=0A> >>>=0A> >>> someone is highly likely to fill in the bla= nk in real time. (To use=0A> >>> modern jargon, you have crowd-sourced yo= ur=0A> >>> proof-reading.)=0A> >>>=0A> >>> Is any attendee free to do thi= s with this tool, or only approved scribes ?=0A> >>=0A> >> Much as I love= Jabber, I've found that people can scribe more efficiently in=0A> >> Eth= erpad (yes, you crowdsource the note-taking, anyone can help, and you can= =0A> >> see the entire set of notes at one view instead of having the not= es=0A> >> interspersed with questions and general banter as in a typical = Jabber=0A> >> chatroom).=0A> >>=0A> >> YMMV, naturally.=0A> >>=0A> >=0A> = > Well, I look forward to trying it.=0A> >=0A> > I expect to present the = transport draft, and ask questions from time=0A> > to time, so I will nee= d a backup.=0A> =0A> Of course with this tool *everyone* can fill in deta= ils.=0A> But yes, we need at least two committed to this.=0A> =0A> I'm st= ill not clear on the multiuser protocol for this.=0A> ISTM that *somebody= * needs to be seen as in the lead, or else we will =0A> get multiple conc= urrent entries of the same stuff.=0A> =0A> Thanks,=0A> Paul=0A> =0A> __= _____________________________________________=0A> clue mailing list=0A> c= lue@ietf.org=0A> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From stpeter@stpeter.im Wed Nov 9 08:37:01 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 426CD21F8B54 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:37:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KgLdvCxiZkGS for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:37:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA70721F8B2E for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:37:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from normz.cisco.com (unknown [72.163.0.129]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9A5B9420DE; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 09:42:56 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4EBAAC2B.9080807@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 09:36:59 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Kyzivat References: <4EBA594C.1060406@levkowetz.com> <4EBA9A7B.7080308@alum.mit.edu> <4EBA9C83.20904@stpeter.im> <4EBAA660.5080708@stpeter.im> <4EBAA92D.50409@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <4EBAA92D.50409@alum.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Fwd: Etherpad for collaborative note-taking X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 16:37:01 -0000 On 11/9/11 9:24 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > I'm still not clear on the multiuser protocol for this. > ISTM that *somebody* needs to be seen as in the lead, or else we will > get multiple concurrent entries of the same stuff. In my experience the social protocol is fairly straightforward: generally someone takes the lead for a time and others correct or amplify. In a really busy meeting (e.g., certain BoFs I've attended) it might be productive to have two scribes who take turns, with one being the lead and one in a kind of clean-up mode. Experiment and see. :) /psa From christer.holmberg@ericsson.com Wed Nov 9 11:25:41 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5353421F85AA for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 11:25:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.352 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.352 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.247, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eBak2XaehKNL for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 11:25:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (mailgw10.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A7FB21F85A1 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 11:25:40 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3d-b7c26ae0000035b9-bc-4ebad3b392b1 Received: from esessmw0197.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 39.2C.13753.3B3DABE4; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 20:25:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSCMS0356.eemea.ericsson.se ([169.254.1.57]) by esessmw0197.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.115.87]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 20:25:38 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: Paul Kyzivat , Marshall Eubanks Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 20:22:41 +0100 Thread-Topic: [clue] Fwd: Etherpad for collaborative note-taking Thread-Index: Acye/AiPe6BIElX2Sz+B1z/GdaxzRQAGOpVc Message-ID: <7F2072F1E0DE894DA4B517B93C6A058522357173C9@ESESSCMS0356.eemea.ericsson.se> References: <4EBA594C.1060406@levkowetz.com> <4EBA9A7B.7080308@alum.mit.edu> <4EBA9C83.20904@stpeter.im> <4EBAA660.5080708@stpeter.im> , <4EBAA92D.50409@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <4EBAA92D.50409@alum.mit.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] Fwd: Etherpad for collaborative note-taking X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 19:25:41 -0000 Hi, I agree with Paul. I think that one should be "seen as in the lead". But, the note takers do miss some parts (names, questions asked etc) every = now and then. They could then indicate that, e.g. using "???", and others c= ould fill in. Regards, Christer ________________________________________ From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Paul Kyziv= at [pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu] Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 6:24 PM To: Marshall Eubanks Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Fwd: Etherpad for collaborative note-taking On 11/9/11 11:13 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 11:12 AM, Peter Saint-Andre w= rote: >> On 11/9/11 9:09 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Peter Saint-Andre >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> On 11/9/11 8:21 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >>>>> >>>>> To all planning on attending the Taipei meeting in the flesh: >>>>> >>>>> Mary and I were just discussing this. It seems a promising tool for >>>>> taking meeting notes, but its new to me and I don't know how much to >>>>> trust it. I played with it for a few moments and while it seemed to w= ork >>>>> I was "disconnected" several times. >>>>> >>>>> I'm also unsure of the best way to use this. We typically want multip= le >>>>> note takers so we don't miss anything and get accurate notes. But I >>>>> wonder if having two note takers collaborating on the *same* text mig= ht >>>>> be distracting. (Perhaps it would be better to have two note takers >>>>> working on independent notes in separate "regions" of the document.) >>>>> >>>>> Are there a couple of people who will volunteer to try this out durin= g >>>>> the CLUE session? And somebody else to take notes independently in ca= se >>>>> this goes wrong? >>>>> >>>>> I'm open to suggestions for the best way to exploit this tool. Anyone >>>>> who has ideas please chime in. >>>> >>>> Those of us who take notes during W3C/IETF liaison calls have been usi= ng >>>> this for a while. It works great since it enables multiple people to t= ake >>>> notes, make corrections, amplify upon text that is too terse, etc. IMH= O >>>> it's >>>> quite intuitive and easy to use. >>>> >>> >>> The cool thing about jabber scribing is that if you miss something and >>> post something like >>> >>> The proposal would conflict with RFC ? >>> >>> someone is highly likely to fill in the blank in real time. (To use >>> modern jargon, you have crowd-sourced your >>> proof-reading.) >>> >>> Is any attendee free to do this with this tool, or only approved scribe= s ? >> >> Much as I love Jabber, I've found that people can scribe more efficientl= y in >> Etherpad (yes, you crowdsource the note-taking, anyone can help, and you= can >> see the entire set of notes at one view instead of having the notes >> interspersed with questions and general banter as in a typical Jabber >> chatroom). >> >> YMMV, naturally. >> > > Well, I look forward to trying it. > > I expect to present the transport draft, and ask questions from time > to time, so I will need a backup. Of course with this tool *everyone* can fill in details. But yes, we need at least two committed to this. I'm still not clear on the multiuser protocol for this. ISTM that *somebody* needs to be seen as in the lead, or else we will get multiple concurrent entries of the same stuff. Thanks, Paul _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From allyn@cisco.com Wed Nov 9 12:17:49 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DB141F0C5D for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 12:17:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.741 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.741 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.857, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6ggZofSP9ERT for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 12:17:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-4.cisco.com (mtv-iport-4.cisco.com [173.36.130.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CAC91F0C47 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 12:17:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=allyn@cisco.com; l=7605; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1320869868; x=1322079468; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:from:to:cc; bh=NnpozxH7TWSP6DD3ZnvZxflDAWVjSGFqp5/qffmSWzc=; b=RpNeJnOIacxL0wlJnSxb5OlONY/nIlY45+91aftWgNbtkloocvh9IJbB QnSSkixyc/82zxR7n6BkaM9Pxj/EY5FOCstQksmeZQU83npbt+nOtLM3i z5uI/tXFzb10Rfl61nvDAXrTbNilRokJOREtReQO5yz/XYYC+WDGUv+Ny 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EABvfuk6rRDoH/2dsb2JhbAA5CoJNp1eBBYF0AQQSAQkRA0kSASoGGAdXAQQbEwegXAGfG4ZOgk5jBIgMkVeMVQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,485,1315180800"; d="scan'208,217";a="13274373" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by mtv-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Nov 2011 20:17:48 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pA9KHl45017809; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 20:17:47 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.80]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 9 Nov 2011 12:17:47 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CC9F1C.A56CAA70" Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 12:17:47 -0800 Message-ID: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC061BA8FE@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Requirements open issues 5 and 6-- three dimensions and multi-view Thread-Index: AcyfHKWbOAeKobNPRO+Lci7jINS21Q== From: "Allyn Romanow (allyn)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Nov 2011 20:17:47.0739 (UTC) FILETIME=[A5DAEAB0:01CC9F1C] Cc: "Botzko, Stephen" Subject: [clue] Requirements open issues 5 and 6-- three dimensions and multi-view X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:17:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC9F1C.A56CAA70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Folks, Steve and I would like to propose how to handle the open issues that are not waiting for more resolution.=20 Two of them are covered in this email, and another in a separate email. =20 =20 =20 =20 >From the draft OPEN-5: Need to add requirement for three dimensions in the right place =20 We feel there are 2 parts to this - identifying the origin and identifying what we have been calling the area. The authors propose to add to the doc =20 REQMT-1d: The solution MUST support a means to identify the extent of individual video captures in three dimensions =20 REQMT-2e: The solution MUST support a means to identify the extent of individual audio captures in three dimensions. =20 =20 OPEN-5: Need to identify the origin of each capture is not identified as a requirement. The authors propose =20 REQMT-1c: The solution MUST support a means to identify the point of origin of individual video captures in three dimensions =20 REQMT-2d: The solution MUST support a means to identify the point of origin of individual audio captures in three dimensions. =20 =20 There is also OPEN-6 Multi-view, is there a requirement needed? =20 Stephen and Roni in their email discussion have identified three types of multi-view. Only one type, the third in their discussion, relates to what has been discussed within the use cases, which is the case which the same field of view is captured from multiple camera angles. We can describe this in the terms we have just used, which is that one scene is captured by multiple points of origin. We feel that this requirement is already covered by the proposal for OPEN-5, since it allows you to accomplish this type of multi-view. So, we don't think there needs to be an extra and redundant requirement for multi-view of type 3. =20 =20 Stephen and Allyn =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC9F1C.A56CAA70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Folks,

Steve and I would like to propose how to handle the = open issues that are not waiting for more resolution.

Two of them are covered in this email, and another = in a separate email.

 

 

 

 

From the draft = OPEN-5: Need to add requirement for three dimensions in the right place

 

We feel there are 2 parts to this – = identifying the origin and identifying what we have been calling the area. The authors propose = to add to the doc

 

REQMT-1d: The solution MUST support a means to = identify the extent of individual video captures in three dimensions

 

REQMT-2e: The solution MUST support a means to = identify the extent of individual audio captures in three dimensions.

 

 

OPEN-5: Need to identify the origin of each capture = is not identified as a requirement. The authors propose

 

REQMT-1c: The solution MUST support a means to = identify the point of origin of individual video captures in three = dimensions

 

REQMT-2d: The solution MUST support a means to = identify the point of origin of individual audio captures in three = dimensions.

 

 

There is also

OPEN-6 Multi-view, is there a requirement = needed?

 

Stephen and Roni in their email discussion have = identified three types of multi-view. Only one type, the third in their discussion, =  relates to what has been discussed within the use cases, which is the case which = the same field of view is captured from multiple camera angles. We can = describe this in the terms we have just used, which is that one scene is captured = by multiple points of origin.  We feel that this requirement is = already covered by the proposal for OPEN-5, since it allows you to accomplish this type = of multi-view. So, we don’t think there needs to be an extra and = redundant requirement for multi-view of type 3.

 

 

Stephen and Allyn

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01CC9F1C.A56CAA70-- From allyn@cisco.com Wed Nov 9 12:21:34 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AA4021F8448 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 12:21:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.750, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rMC8z4pReL3i for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 12:21:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-3.cisco.com (mtv-iport-3.cisco.com [173.36.130.14]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B547B21F843E for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 12:21:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=allyn@cisco.com; l=4334; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1320870087; x=1322079687; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:from:to:cc; bh=GJTDoIe9JVbzheieV0pUW3a9SWzNWJxtaq0ZCSEM7wQ=; b=K3/pFinrZc2ef+xrzCmM8yXTM+XsLX675uU8KWaj7aESO9tmhWNp7XpJ u60vWuDysaE6FmM0S444L41OUkmGGbGmQUYkElQmQCShyrms66kSJCgFN df4L5TzOPyNGCH8ZFATprK7QAZbPAEvrkYLzXjxqTbOIlPAbpGrK5bruV 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: As0HAGDguk6rRDoH/2dsb2JhbABDgk2YHo85gQWBdAEEEgEJEQM4ERIBKgYYB1cBBBsTB6BOAZ8aiRxjBIgMkVeMVQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,485,1315180800"; d="scan'208,217";a="13279396" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by mtv-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Nov 2011 20:21:27 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pA9KLRuC019499; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 20:21:27 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.80]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 9 Nov 2011 12:21:27 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CC9F1D.28B8EAC4" Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 12:21:28 -0800 Message-ID: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC061BA905@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute values Thread-Index: AcyfHSl7oacILqVqTnm/IrI6p1xwvA== From: "Allyn Romanow (allyn)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Nov 2011 20:21:27.0393 (UTC) FILETIME=[28C77510:01CC9F1D] Cc: "Botzko, Stephen" Subject: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute values X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:21:34 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC9F1D.28B8EAC4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks,=20 Open issue 4 reads OPEN-4 Need to capture requirement that attributes can change at any time during the call. =20 Here is a proposal to add to the document a new requirement stating, =20 REQMT-16: The solution must support a means for allowing information about media captures to change during a conference.=20 =20 =20 Comments? =20 Thanks, Stephen and Allyn =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC9F1D.28B8EAC4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Folks,

Open issue 4 reads

OPEN-4 Need to = capture requirement that attributes can change at any time during the = call.

 

Here is a proposal to = add to the document a new requirement stating,

 

REQMT-16: The = solution must support a means for allowing  information about media captures to = change during a conference.

 

 

Comments?

 

Thanks,

Stephen and = Allyn

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01CC9F1D.28B8EAC4-- From eckelcu@cisco.com Wed Nov 9 13:13:03 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D798621F8548 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 13:13:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.376 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.376 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.223, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w0TN6pKLI-BN for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 13:13:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-3.cisco.com (mtv-iport-3.cisco.com [173.36.130.14]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BDB221F84AE for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 13:13:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=eckelcu@cisco.com; l=1126; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1320873183; x=1322082783; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:in-reply-to:references:from:to:cc; bh=Lh5eQ1vg4ACI2nNnGvBQ4FhI8acodvpRJNro3RrBjWo=; b=AKKCaZmkvPe41KHPNIAWyU2QCjBEod5EH7SHhy1Hmlwoejs4SxLiJJRj ZBFkgueFZDHKyPpNWHIcG1LefVH908NG+qP/o2Q65Nl4GrLYPiN8Wymn0 nzGZxeGDiXyeA36ZBIXYI2LwxnuOQDXi++Lia7jywh8MecGi6liA5eSuG M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ArsAABbsuk6rRDoJ/2dsb2JhbABDmiiPfIEFgXIBAQEEEgEdCi4RDAQCAQgRBAEBCwYXAQYBRQkIAQEEARIIEwegUQGfGokcYwSIDJFXjFU X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,485,1315180800"; d="scan'208";a="13287128" Received: from mtv-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.58.9]) by mtv-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Nov 2011 21:13:03 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pA9LD2dO016513; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 21:13:02 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-234.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.111]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 9 Nov 2011 13:13:02 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 13:13:01 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC061BA905@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute values Thread-Index: AcyfHSl7oacILqVqTnm/IrI6p1xwvAABtv8A References: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC061BA905@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: "Allyn Romanow (allyn)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Nov 2011 21:13:02.0905 (UTC) FILETIME=[5DD91A90:01CC9F24] Cc: "Botzko, Stephen" Subject: Re: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute values X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 21:13:04 -0000 Hi Allyn, One problem is that we currently have no formal definition for media captures. What if we were instead to add: REQMT-16: The solution must support a means for allowing information about endpoint characteristics, stream characteristics, and/or source selection policies to change during a conference. Cheers, Charles > -----Original Message----- > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Allyn Romanow (allyn) > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 12:21 PM > To: clue@ietf.org > Cc: Botzko, Stephen > Subject: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute values >=20 > Folks, >=20 > Open issue 4 reads >=20 > OPEN-4 Need to capture requirement that attributes can change at any time during the call. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Here is a proposal to add to the document a new requirement stating, >=20 >=20 >=20 > REQMT-16: The solution must support a means for allowing information about media captures to change > during a conference. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Comments? >=20 >=20 >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Stephen and Allyn >=20 >=20 From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Wed Nov 9 14:14:24 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A51D1F0C35 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 14:14:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.426 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.426 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.173, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZGFyHVIxqVMY for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 14:14:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta12.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta12.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.59.227]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 144B61F0C34 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 14:14:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta16.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.88]) by qmta12.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id v9Vo1h0041uE5Es5CAEQyp; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 22:14:24 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([24.62.229.5]) by omta16.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id vAEM1h00T07duvL3cAEMbz; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 22:14:24 +0000 Message-ID: <4EBAFB3A.6090607@alum.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 17:14:18 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929 Thunderbird/7.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clue@ietf.org References: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC061BA905@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC061BA905@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute values X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 22:14:24 -0000 On 11/9/11 3:21 PM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) wrote: > Folks, > > Open issue 4 reads > > OPEN-4 Need to capture requirement that attributes can change at any > time during the call. > > Here is a proposal to add to the document a new requirement stating, > > REQMT-16: The solution must support a means for allowing information > about media captures to change during a conference. Seems ok for the most part, but it also applies to p2p calls, not just conferences. You could substitute "telepresence session" for "conference". (Please don't just use "session" given all the mess going on in dispatch right now.) Thanks, Paul From Christian.Groves@nteczone.com Wed Nov 9 15:42:29 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57C3B11E8088 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 15:42:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.431 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.431 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.168, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FpGc28QKGEAa for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 15:42:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net (ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net [150.101.137.131]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8126D11E8080 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 15:42:28 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Am4CANMNu0520X1e/2dsb2JhbAAMLgqaa5IwAQEBBAEBAS8BBRsbChELGAkWDwkDAgECARUwEwYCAQEXh2+3awSGToMxBKYr Received: from ppp118-209-125-94.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net (HELO [127.0.0.1]) ([118.209.125.94]) by ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 10 Nov 2011 10:12:26 +1030 Message-ID: <4EBB0FDC.2030104@nteczone.com> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:42:20 +1100 From: Christian Groves User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clue@ietf.org References: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC061BA8FE@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC061BA8FE@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [clue] Requirements open issues 5 and 6-- three dimensions and multi-view X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 23:42:29 -0000 Hello Allyn, The proposed requirements look ok to me. With regards to multi-view you mention that is covered by requirements in OPEN-5. Perhaps we can provide some extra text linking the requirement to the multi-view use case? At least then there's some traceability and people can see a link to multiview. Regards, Christian On 10/11/2011 7:17 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > Steve and I would like to propose how to handle the open issues that > are not waiting for more resolution. > > Two of them are covered in this email, and another in a separate email. > > From the draft OPEN-5: Need to add requirement for three dimensions in > the right place > > We feel there are 2 parts to this – identifying the origin and > identifying what we have been calling the area. The authors propose to > add to the doc > > REQMT-1d: The solution MUST support a means to identify the extent of > individual video captures in three dimensions > > REQMT-2e: The solution MUST support a means to identify the extent of > individual audio captures in three dimensions. > > OPEN-5: Need to identify the origin of each capture is not identified > as a requirement. The authors propose > > REQMT-1c: The solution MUST support a means to identify the point of > origin of individual video captures in three dimensions > > REQMT-2d: The solution MUST support a means to identify the point of > origin of individual audio captures in three dimensions. > > There is also > > OPEN-6 Multi-view, is there a requirement needed? > > Stephen and Roni in their email discussion have identified three types > of multi-view. Only one type, the third in their discussion, relates > to what has been discussed within the use cases, which is the case > which the same field of view is captured from multiple camera angles. > We can describe this in the terms we have just used, which is that one > scene is captured by multiple points of origin. We feel that this > requirement is already covered by the proposal for OPEN-5, since it > allows you to accomplish this type of multi-view. So, we don’t think > there needs to be an extra and redundant requirement for multi-view of > type 3. > > Stephen and Allyn > > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From Christian.Groves@nteczone.com Wed Nov 9 15:47:48 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B170E11E80AB for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 15:47:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.442 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.442 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.157, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fwJgkV6NYBH0 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 15:47:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net (ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net [150.101.137.131]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFB8C11E809A for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 15:47:47 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Am4CANMNu0520X1e/2dsb2JhbAAMOJprkjABAQEEAQEBNRsVBgoRCxgJFg8JAwIBAgEVMBMGAgEBF4dvt2sEiX8Epis Received: from ppp118-209-125-94.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net (HELO [127.0.0.1]) ([118.209.125.94]) by ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 10 Nov 2011 10:17:47 +1030 Message-ID: <4EBB111C.1080205@nteczone.com> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:47:40 +1100 From: Christian Groves User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clue@ietf.org References: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC061BA905@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC061BA905@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute values X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 23:47:48 -0000 Hello Stephen and Allyn, In the framework we have attributes at a scene level and a media level so perhaps this should be reworded? REQMT-16: The solution must support a means for allowing scene and/or media information to change during a conference. Regards, Christian On 10/11/2011 7:21 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) wrote: > > Folks, > > Open issue 4 reads > > OPEN-4 Need to capture requirement that attributes can change at any > time during the call. > > Here is a proposal to add to the document a new requirement stating, > > REQMT-16: The solution must support a means for allowing information > about media captures to change during a conference. > > Comments? > > Thanks, > > Stephen and Allyn > > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From allyn@cisco.com Thu Nov 10 08:14:58 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CDD921F8B4B for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 08:14:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.932 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.932 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.667, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HOY8p2x1ihN6 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 08:14:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE2CC21F8B47 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 08:14:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=allyn@cisco.com; l=3389; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1320941697; x=1322151297; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:in-reply-to:references:from:to; bh=WC5RS2csnfz+jEFWlW2NghnLjkidcUJe1vPnnM+uivw=; b=NACbXjffWpoqIuj+2SybE6JmYczibEUPW48lSLrDj/E5JgKGOx/i1LCa myLrAcDeeVEUV72SRZrLhhr9FbjFCKAgpS2NO8aKZU1EOeZdHljiJoFIo Dh+eJnr/pPc8VljJNYtX5hZzLmnEbe7uFQ54c7XgZ7eMm20z8EJgjuHKw g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AsEAAOH3u06tJV2b/2dsb2JhbAA6Cpouj3mBBYFyAQEBBAEBAQ8BHQo0FwQCAQgRBAEBAQoGFwEGASYfCQgBAQQBEggTB4domUABnmMEhkuCUGMEiA+RWoxV X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,489,1315180800"; d="scan'208";a="34786302" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Nov 2011 16:14:57 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAAGF7bn003377; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:15:08 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.80]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 10 Nov 2011 08:14:56 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 08:14:51 -0800 Message-ID: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC061BABE3@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4EBB0FDC.2030104@nteczone.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clue] Requirements open issues 5 and 6-- three dimensions and multi-view Thread-Index: AcyfOUEhgERcQpicRF2k6+SYxO6JrwAikQeA References: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC061BA8FE@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> <4EBB0FDC.2030104@nteczone.com> From: "Allyn Romanow (allyn)" To: "Christian Groves" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Nov 2011 16:14:56.0094 (UTC) FILETIME=[E2E417E0:01CC9FC3] Subject: Re: [clue] Requirements open issues 5 and 6-- three dimensions and multi-view X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:14:58 -0000 Hi Christian, Your suggestion makes a lot of sense, but in previous discussions people have not wanted discursive text in the requirements. It seems to me that anyone interested in this type of multi-view would immediately understand that the functionality is spelled out. However, this is just my view, and I'm fine of course if there's a consensus to add additional text. Best, Allyn > -----Original Message----- > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Christian Groves > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 3:42 PM > To: clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] Requirements open issues 5 and 6-- three dimensions > and multi-view >=20 > Hello Allyn, >=20 > The proposed requirements look ok to me. With regards to multi-view you > mention that is covered by requirements in OPEN-5. Perhaps we can > provide some extra text linking the requirement to the multi-view use > case? At least then there's some traceability and people can see a link > to multiview. >=20 > Regards, Christian >=20 > On 10/11/2011 7:17 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) wrote: > > > > Hi Folks, > > > > Steve and I would like to propose how to handle the open issues that > > are not waiting for more resolution. > > > > Two of them are covered in this email, and another in a separate > email. > > > > From the draft OPEN-5: Need to add requirement for three dimensions > in > > the right place > > > > We feel there are 2 parts to this - identifying the origin and > > identifying what we have been calling the area. The authors propose > to > > add to the doc > > > > REQMT-1d: The solution MUST support a means to identify the extent of > > individual video captures in three dimensions > > > > REQMT-2e: The solution MUST support a means to identify the extent of > > individual audio captures in three dimensions. > > > > OPEN-5: Need to identify the origin of each capture is not identified > > as a requirement. The authors propose > > > > REQMT-1c: The solution MUST support a means to identify the point of > > origin of individual video captures in three dimensions > > > > REQMT-2d: The solution MUST support a means to identify the point of > > origin of individual audio captures in three dimensions. > > > > There is also > > > > OPEN-6 Multi-view, is there a requirement needed? > > > > Stephen and Roni in their email discussion have identified three > types > > of multi-view. Only one type, the third in their discussion, relates > > to what has been discussed within the use cases, which is the case > > which the same field of view is captured from multiple camera angles. > > We can describe this in the terms we have just used, which is that > one > > scene is captured by multiple points of origin. We feel that this > > requirement is already covered by the proposal for OPEN-5, since it > > allows you to accomplish this type of multi-view. So, we don't think > > there needs to be an extra and redundant requirement for multi-view > of > > type 3. > > > > Stephen and Allyn > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > clue mailing list > > clue@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com Thu Nov 10 12:21:15 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB56221F8B64 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:21:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8x95q9FBObf4 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:21:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from crpehubprd02.polycom.com (crpehubprd01.polycom.com [140.242.64.158]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B178421F8B65 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:21:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from Crpmboxprd01.polycom.com ([fe80::e001:c7b0:91a1:9443]) by crpehubprd02.polycom.com ([fe80::5efe:10.236.0.154%12]) with mapi; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:21:12 -0800 From: "Duckworth, Mark" To: "clue@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:21:11 -0800 Thread-Topic: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute values Thread-Index: AcyfHSl7oacILqVqTnm/IrI6p1xwvAABtv8AADCBHtA= Message-ID: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE70F2FD@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> References: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC061BA905@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute values X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 20:21:15 -0000 The definition for Media Capture is in both the definitions document and th= e framework document. Media Capture: a source of Media, such as from one or more Capture Devices. A Media Capture (MC) may be the source of one or more Media streams. A Media Capture may also be constructed from other Media streams. A middle box can express Media Captures that it constructs from Media streams it receives. It should be fine to use the same term in the requirements document. Mark -----Original Message----- From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Cha= rles Eckel (eckelcu) Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 4:13 PM To: Allyn Romanow (allyn); clue@ietf.org Cc: Botzko, Stephen Subject: Re: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute values Hi Allyn, One problem is that we currently have no formal definition for media captur= es. What if we were instead to add: REQMT-16: The solution must support a means for allowing information about = endpoint characteristics, stream characteristics, and/or source selection p= olicies to change during a conference. Cheers, Charles > -----Original Message----- > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Allyn Romanow (allyn) > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 12:21 PM > To: clue@ietf.org > Cc: Botzko, Stephen > Subject: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute values >=20 > Folks, >=20 > Open issue 4 reads >=20 > OPEN-4 Need to capture requirement that attributes can change at any time during the call. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Here is a proposal to add to the document a new requirement stating, >=20 >=20 >=20 > REQMT-16: The solution must support a means for allowing information about media captures to change > during a conference. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Comments? >=20 >=20 >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Stephen and Allyn >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From eckelcu@cisco.com Thu Nov 10 12:51:23 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E812F21F84DC for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:51:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.269 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.269 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.330, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GsqPtNyDU5dv for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:51:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-1.cisco.com (mtv-iport-1.cisco.com [173.36.130.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 648D121F8459 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:51:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=eckelcu@cisco.com; l=3234; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1320958283; x=1322167883; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:in-reply-to:references:from:to; bh=DZW6DrjgLxFJzOc3vrLnxNCZmPk/FyK2JEXFU41VDlg=; b=kHkMFxsELbPWGESgXjgyQ6JsPliNK8uGBPjWVeo3arIIxt6WQ/k9+bZa TtoHQwiKQhKuiY5taL5zQwhFN//YgtHNPmtxBaEk+eEWaTtO/nHINQGmV t+awoM4Dy11tbM5T7YpGXhnx+VM01KxB2vsZ25t0fmi1Px515cRNQlIfw M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AsEAADs4vE6rRDoH/2dsb2JhbABEmjKPeoEFgXIBAQEEAQEBDwEdCi4GFwQCAQgRBAEBCwYXAQYBJh8JCAEBBAESCBMHh2iZGwGeVASJG2MEiA+RWoxV X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,490,1315180800"; d="scan'208";a="11939061" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by mtv-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Nov 2011 20:51:23 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAAKpN2Y003233; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 20:51:23 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-234.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.111]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:51:23 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:51:21 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE70F2FD@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute values Thread-Index: AcyfHSl7oacILqVqTnm/IrI6p1xwvAABtv8AADCBHtAAAMn2oA== References: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC061BA905@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE70F2FD@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: "Duckworth, Mark" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Nov 2011 20:51:23.0064 (UTC) FILETIME=[817EDB80:01CC9FEA] Subject: Re: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute values X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 20:51:24 -0000 Ah, I see, the definition for media capture was added in draft-wenger-clue-definitions-02. The requirements document currently references draft-wenger-clue-definitions-01. Updating the reference would resolve the missing definition issue. However, I think there is another issue. Media captures are provided by the producer, and we agree they need to be able to change mid call. The new requirement, as stated, covers that. But what about the consumer changing its selection mid call of the previously advertised media captures? I think we should allow for this choice to change independent of any change in the media captures. Cheers, Charles > -----Original Message----- > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Duckworth, Mark > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 12:21 PM > To: clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute values >=20 > The definition for Media Capture is in both the definitions document and the framework document. > Media Capture: a source of Media, such as from one or more > Capture Devices. A Media Capture (MC) may be the source of one > or more Media streams. A Media Capture may also be constructed > from other Media streams. A middle box can express Media > Captures that it constructs from Media streams it receives. >=20 > It should be fine to use the same term in the requirements document. >=20 > Mark >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Charles Eckel (eckelcu) > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 4:13 PM > To: Allyn Romanow (allyn); clue@ietf.org > Cc: Botzko, Stephen > Subject: Re: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute values >=20 > Hi Allyn, >=20 > One problem is that we currently have no formal definition for media captures. What if we were instead > to add: >=20 > REQMT-16: The solution must support a means for allowing information about endpoint characteristics, > stream characteristics, and/or source selection policies to change during a conference. >=20 > Cheers, > Charles >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of Allyn Romanow (allyn) > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 12:21 PM > > To: clue@ietf.org > > Cc: Botzko, Stephen > > Subject: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute values > > > > Folks, > > > > Open issue 4 reads > > > > OPEN-4 Need to capture requirement that attributes can change at any > time during the call. > > > > > > > > Here is a proposal to add to the document a new requirement stating, > > > > > > > > REQMT-16: The solution must support a means for allowing information > about media captures to change > > during a conference. > > > > > > > > > > > > Comments? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Stephen and Allyn > > > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From allyn@cisco.com Thu Nov 10 17:16:29 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C67DA21F84A3 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:16:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.600, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TU+6fWcA-4AW for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:16:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-3.cisco.com (mtv-iport-3.cisco.com [173.36.130.14]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0108C21F84A1 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:16:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=allyn@cisco.com; l=4280; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1320974189; x=1322183789; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:in-reply-to:references:from:to; bh=YLJ9VKPLKrNUlZ/FL962flW/15i2gkq+IIPEa7BtMY4=; b=Lf4pZS+UzPDRKwSqgVU5Qw6BqPpb+SrGVcKya4vk9x1hJCYf2z9Il+ye MoJtSQp3Tubk+Ghr+Qqh61OdyxcP9zuibbfoKBn7z1cYVg3V2xAppHcpu SEBZ5YmdAf17aLywADukkiRL7ZyhO1wFCke+/ByI230yRVl/r972Js8tR k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AskAAPl2vE6rRDoH/2dsb2JhbABEmjOPeoEFgXIBAQEBAwEBAQ8BHQouBhcEAgEIEQQBAQsGFwEGASYfCQgBAQQBEggTB4domj4BnkgEiRtjBIgPkVqMVQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,491,1315180800"; d="scan'208";a="13559106" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by mtv-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Nov 2011 01:16:29 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAB1GSVZ007294; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 01:16:28 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.80]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:16:28 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:16:26 -0800 Message-ID: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC061BAEF0@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute values Thread-Index: AcyfHSl7oacILqVqTnm/IrI6p1xwvAABtv8AADCBHtAAAMn2oAAHuaEA References: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC061BA905@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com><44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE70F2FD@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> From: "Allyn Romanow (allyn)" To: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" , "Duckworth, Mark" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Nov 2011 01:16:28.0714 (UTC) FILETIME=[8A0070A0:01CCA00F] Subject: Re: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute values X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 01:16:29 -0000 Hi Charles, We could go in this direction, but I feel that it takes the proposed solution and then writes the requirements to match. The consumer changing his selection mid call is part of the solution. I think that the proposal is sufficiently general so you can construe "information about media captures" to refer to a consumer changing his choices. Does it not seem so to you? Best, Allyn > -----Original Message----- > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Charles Eckel (eckelcu) > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 12:51 PM > To: Duckworth, Mark; clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute > values >=20 > Ah, I see, the definition for media capture was added in > draft-wenger-clue-definitions-02. The requirements document currently > references draft-wenger-clue-definitions-01. Updating the reference > would resolve the missing definition issue. > However, I think there is another issue. Media captures are provided by > the producer, and we agree they need to be able to change mid call. The > new requirement, as stated, covers that. But what about the consumer > changing its selection mid call of the previously advertised media > captures? I think we should allow for this choice to change independent > of any change in the media captures. >=20 > Cheers, > Charles >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of Duckworth, Mark > > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 12:21 PM > > To: clue@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute > values > > > > The definition for Media Capture is in both the definitions document > and the framework document. > > Media Capture: a source of Media, such as from one or more > > Capture Devices. A Media Capture (MC) may be the source of one > > or more Media streams. A Media Capture may also be constructed > > from other Media streams. A middle box can express Media > > Captures that it constructs from Media streams it receives. > > > > It should be fine to use the same term in the requirements document. > > > > Mark > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of Charles Eckel (eckelcu) > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 4:13 PM > > To: Allyn Romanow (allyn); clue@ietf.org > > Cc: Botzko, Stephen > > Subject: Re: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute > values > > > > Hi Allyn, > > > > One problem is that we currently have no formal definition for media > captures. What if we were instead > > to add: > > > > REQMT-16: The solution must support a means for allowing information > about endpoint characteristics, > > stream characteristics, and/or source selection policies to change > during a conference. > > > > Cheers, > > Charles > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf > > Of Allyn Romanow (allyn) > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 12:21 PM > > > To: clue@ietf.org > > > Cc: Botzko, Stephen > > > Subject: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute > values > > > > > > Folks, > > > > > > Open issue 4 reads > > > > > > OPEN-4 Need to capture requirement that attributes can change at > any > > time during the call. > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is a proposal to add to the document a new requirement > stating, > > > > > > > > > > > > REQMT-16: The solution must support a means for allowing > information > > about media captures to change > > > during a conference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Comments? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Stephen and Allyn > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > clue mailing list > > clue@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > _______________________________________________ > > clue mailing list > > clue@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Fri Nov 11 07:49:23 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF09321F8770 for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 07:49:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.428 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.171, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3kI8+4kv6OnJ for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 07:49:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta01.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta02.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.24]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA35A21F848F for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 07:49:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.28]) by qmta01.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id vrpK1h0040cZkys51rpKrz; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:49:19 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([24.62.229.5]) by omta10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id vrpJ1h00L07duvL3WrpJ2W; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:49:19 +0000 Message-ID: <4EBD43FD.1090001@alum.mit.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:49:17 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CLUE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [clue] comments on draft-ietf-clue-framework-01 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:49:23 -0000 I reviewed draft-ietf-clue-framework-01 again in prep for the meeting. The following are things I noted along the way: Definitions: I think we need to define "Telepresence Session" and "Telepresence Conference". The former encompasses both point-to-point and MCU based sessions, the latter is just those involving an MCU. Are both Capture Scene and Capture Set necessary? They are 1:1. Conference: are we interested in the sort of distributed conference contemplated by dcon? Can we leave that out of scope until dcon is well underway? Is the word "configure" appropriate? Would "select" be more appropriate? 5 Stream Information: Perhaps the section title is a misnomer. This is more than stream info. Suggest "Media Provider Information". I thought we agreed that we would allow attributes at the capture set level. But while that has been added in section 5.5, it hasn't been added to the figure. It would also be good to add another level to the top of this hierarchy (Provider) and show that the provider can have multiple capture sets. 5.3 Attributes for media captures: ISTM that "purpose" should be an attribute of a capture-scene/capture-set, because all the captures in a given scene should have the same purpose. 5.3.3 Audio Channel Format: All ACs in the same row of a Capture Set MUST have the same value of the "channel format" attribute. Rather than such a constraint, I suggest making this an attribute of the capture set row itself, rather than of an individual capture. (That means introducing the capture set row as and explicit element of the model. And I think we could improve on "row" as the term for this. What about something like "view" (in the DB sense).) 5.3.4 Area of capture The definition of the axes differs from the slides. (Y and Z are swapped.) 5.4 Capture Set The idea is to have sets of captures that represent the same information ("information" in this context might be a set of people and their associated audio / video streams, or might be a presentation supplied by a laptop, perhaps with an accompanying audio commentary). Spatial ordering of media captures is described through the use of attributes. This is not as comprehensible as it might be, because it fails to reference "capture scene", which has been defined and is what it is talking about. How about: The idea is to have sets of captures that represent the same capture scene. Spatial ordering of media captures is described through the use of attributes. 6.2. Physical Simultaneity Physical or device simultaneity refers to fact that a device may not be able to be used in different ways at the same time. This shapes the way that offers are made from the provider. The offers are made so that the consumer will choose one of several possible usages of the device. The use of "offers" above seems less than ideal. How about: Physical or device simultaneity refers to fact that a device may not be able to be used in different ways at the same time. This shapes the way that capabilities are announced by the provider. The announcement is structured so that the consumer will choose one of several possible usages of the device. Thanks, Paul From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Fri Nov 11 08:11:42 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1737821F8880 for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 08:11:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.170, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j3VT64jTPJXM for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 08:11:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 254DB21F849E for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 08:11:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta20.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.71]) by qmta05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id vpz11h0031YDfWL55sBhUF; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:11:41 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([24.62.229.5]) by omta20.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id vsBh1h00n07duvL3gsBhoG; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:11:41 +0000 Message-ID: <4EBD493B.4090105@alum.mit.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:11:39 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CLUE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [clue] draft-lennox-clue-rtp-usage-01 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:11:42 -0000 I have one question about draft-lennox-clue-rtp-usage-01: The draft seems to be focused on video. But presumably the intent is to use this multiplexing for audio as well. But the Combined Approach of section 5.3 assumes there are some distinguished frame types, which might not apply. It would be helpful to have an explicit discussion of how audio is to be handled. Thanks, Paul From bbaldino@cisco.com Fri Nov 11 09:24:12 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 902C921F8AFA for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 09:24:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1N1us0mfwjSK for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 09:24:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-1.cisco.com (mtv-iport-1.cisco.com [173.36.130.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E230821F8AD3 for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 09:24:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=bbaldino@cisco.com; l=48731; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1321032251; x=1322241851; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:from:to; bh=DCtMBkDnxOx8gA0Swrei40CBLvstrQoi65TMeDk+nrc=; b=lkRatvOTiK3RjUoxipdRXt96E+dDb3dwuTX0xD6s3fta3iQaOk64iHMR lwK7iYGN3CNQr0zJ+gEOG8HP3j1CrhhWSTB9L9+ZSzb0RgGojo6k5qjvi 1JyB4x0/PI9wu5m5KKIYaVke6be85CZL+mZDcqKkdgmqP4M7zr5PO6vxL o=; X-Files: CLUE_coordinates.docx : 33267 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ah0HAIBZvU6rRDoG/2dsb2JhbABCgk2YF4dmh1OBBYF0AQQSAQkRA1sBDB4GGAcBVgEEGwYUoRKBJgGeMIkbYwSIEIZtinOMVg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,496,1315180800"; d="xml'?rels'?docx'72,48?scan'72,48,208,217,72,48";a="12084306" Received: from mtv-core-1.cisco.com ([171.68.58.6]) by mtv-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Nov 2011 17:24:10 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pABHOAJp013444 for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 17:24:10 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-233.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.88]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 11 Nov 2011 09:24:10 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CCA096.B96840F7" Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 09:24:09 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: CLUE Coordinate system proposal Thread-Index: AcyglrjeenPXRU1zQgan6qPu4zIePA== From: "Brian Baldino (bbaldino)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Nov 2011 17:24:10.0672 (UTC) FILETIME=[B9A02300:01CCA096] Subject: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 17:24:12 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CCA096.B96840F7 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_002_01CCA096.B96840F7" ------_=_NextPart_002_01CCA096.B96840F7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system proposal which will be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give everyone a chance to read it over. =20 -Brian ------_=_NextPart_002_01CCA096.B96840F7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system proposal which will be = presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give everyone a chance to read = it over.

 

-Brian

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szxga04-in.huawei.com (szxga04-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.67]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7048321F8ABB for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:34:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LUI00K7BE9WY1@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for clue@ietf.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:34:44 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LUI007U5E9WR0@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for clue@ietf.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:34:44 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml207-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id AEY27079; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:34:44 +0800 Received: from SZXEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.32) by szxeml207-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.59) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:34:35 +0800 Received: from SZXEML519-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.4]) by szxeml402-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.32]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:34:35 +0800 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:34:33 +0000 From: Roni even In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [172.24.2.40] To: "Brian Baldino (bbaldino)" , "clue@ietf.org" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Sdjhjtb/GAG7t5JG7mi5IQ)" Content-language: en-US Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Thread-topic: CLUE Coordinate system proposal Thread-index: AcyglrjeenPXRU1zQgan6qPu4zIePAACGwyK X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:34:53 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_Sdjhjtb/GAG7t5JG7mi5IQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Brian, I think that in order to agree we need first to agree on what are the co-ordinates used for. I am not sure why a one capture device TP system will not send co-ordinates if they can be used to scale to real size and maybe if real co-ordinates (mm) are used can also provide relative scaling when composing a mixed video. As for the origin, again, what is the use here. I am also wondering if you supply X co-ordinates with no other information where in the room are they relating to. I think I am OK with the concept as long as it will be clear that when you provide only x co-ordinates they describe the line of the people in front of the camera (Probably a straight line between the two extreme people). Regards Roni ________________________________ From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [clue-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Brian Baldino (bbaldino) [bbaldino@cisco.com] Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 19:24 To: clue@ietf.org Subject: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system proposal which will be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give everyone a chance to read it over. -Brian --Boundary_(ID_Sdjhjtb/GAG7t5JG7mi5IQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Hi Brian,

I think that in order to agree we need first to agree on what are the co-ordinates used for.

I am not sure why a one capture device TP system will not send co-ordinates if they can be used to scale to real size and maybe if real co-ordinates (mm) are used can also provide relative scaling when composing a mixed video.

 

As for the origin, again, what is the use here. I am also wondering if you supply X co-ordinates with no other information where in the room are they relating to.  I think I am OK with the concept as long as it will be clear that when you provide only x co-ordinates they describe the line of the people in front of the camera (Probably a straight line between the two extreme people).

 

Regards

Roni

From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [clue-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Brian Baldino (bbaldino) [bbaldino@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 19:24
To: clue@ietf.org
Subject: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal

Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system proposal which will be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give everyone a chance to read it over.

 

-Brian

--Boundary_(ID_Sdjhjtb/GAG7t5JG7mi5IQ)-- From bbaldino@cisco.com Fri Nov 11 11:00:00 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E6A421F8A97 for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:00:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E4UQmMXAY+e6 for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:59:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-1.cisco.com (mtv-iport-1.cisco.com [173.36.130.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6717721F8A95 for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:59:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=bbaldino@cisco.com; l=10220; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1321037998; x=1322247598; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: references:from:to; bh=ZtUkHTdlHKdBeowb07MEYZ9nwOCoYKOWCUAHVNNoYEw=; b=f1gX0we90Xc7Rwbw4Rvr6kLJUCHjqYOGOVqix3h3djaVeoUqhSvnQOow K+NVT6Bdu/esCBePqix7APBQ33bvwX1455JfIhqByoT4BmFQ1Ndk/L0ny TNjY1sfW+OqV0uePLL7Aqu50kEa4m3PXS4oyLxk3QnrSAsqvo6tzyDr0m k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AssAALxvvU6rRDoH/2dsb2JhbABCgk2XVo98gQWBcgEBAQQMBgEJEQNZAgEIEQQBAQsGFwEGAUUJCAEBBAESCBqhZAGeLIkbYwSIEJFgjFY X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,496,1315180800"; d="scan'208,217";a="12099708" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by mtv-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Nov 2011 18:59:57 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pABIxwQL012027; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:59:58 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-233.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.88]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:59:57 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CCA0A4.1B16DA52" Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:59:56 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: CLUE Coordinate system proposal Thread-Index: AcyglrjeenPXRU1zQgan6qPu4zIePAACGwyKAAEAkKA= References: From: "Brian Baldino (bbaldino)" To: "Roni even" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Nov 2011 18:59:57.0992 (UTC) FILETIME=[1B4B9280:01CCA0A4] Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:00:00 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CCA0A4.1B16DA52 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Roni, inline. =20 From: Roni even [mailto:Even.roni@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 10:35 AM To: Brian Baldino (bbaldino); clue@ietf.org Subject: RE: CLUE Coordinate system proposal =20 Hi Brian, I think that in order to agree we need first to agree on what are the co-ordinates used for. I am not sure why a one capture device TP system will not send co-ordinates if they can be used to scale to real size and maybe if real co-ordinates (mm) are used can also provide relative scaling when composing a mixed video. [BB] I don't believe it's safe to assume that all devices will even be able to know their geometry, so I don't think it's fair to require that they send coordinates expressed in real-world dimensions. =20 As for the origin, again, what is the use here. I am also wondering if you supply X co-ordinates with no other information where in the room are they relating to. I think I am OK with the concept as long as it will be clear that when you provide only x co-ordinates they describe the line of the people in front of the camera (Probably a straight line between the two extreme people). [BB] Not sure I follow all of this, but, the proposal does not allow for expressing only a subset of dimensions when expressing the coordinates (some of the diagrams leave a dimension out for purposes of simplification, this is called out in the text). In an actual CLUE exchange each point would be expressed in all 3 dimensions (with the caveat that a 'NaN'-type value could be used, per some of Stephan's concerns). I also don't think there's anything in there that ties the X plane explicitly to something like a row of participants-I'm not sure that's an assumption we'd want to build in.=20 =20 Regards Roni ________________________________ From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [clue-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Brian Baldino (bbaldino) [bbaldino@cisco.com] Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 19:24 To: clue@ietf.org Subject: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system proposal which will be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give everyone a chance to read it over. =20 -Brian ------_=_NextPart_001_01CCA0A4.1B16DA52 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hey Roni, inline.

 

From:= Roni even [mailto:Even.roni@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 10:35 AM
To: Brian Baldino (bbaldino); clue@ietf.org
Subject: RE: CLUE Coordinate system = proposal

 

= Hi Brian,

= I think that in order to agree we need first to agree on what are the co-ordinates used for.

= I am not sure why a one capture device TP system will not send = co-ordinates if they can be used to scale to real size and maybe if real co-ordinates = (mm) are used can also provide relative scaling when composing a mixed = video.

[BB] I don’t believe it’s safe to assume that all devices will = even be able to know their geometry, so I don’t think it’s fair to = require that they send coordinates expressed in real-world = dimensions.

=  

= As for the origin, again, what is the use here. I am also wondering if you = supply X co-ordinates with no other information where in the room are they = relating to.  I think I am OK with the concept as long as it will be clear = that when you provide only x co-ordinates they describe the line of the = people in front of the camera (Probably a straight line between the two extreme = people).

[BB] Not sure I follow all of this, but, the proposal does not allow for = expressing only a subset of dimensions when expressing the coordinates (some of the = diagrams leave a dimension out for purposes of simplification, this is called out = in the text).  In an actual CLUE exchange each point would be expressed in = all 3 dimensions (with the caveat that a ‘NaN’-type value could be = used, per some of Stephan’s concerns).  I also don’t think = there’s anything in there that ties the X plane explicitly to something like a = row of participants—I’m not sure that’s an assumption = we’d want to build in.

=  

= Regards

= Roni

From:= clue-bounces@ietf.org [clue-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Brian Baldino (bbaldino) [bbaldino@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 19:24
To: clue@ietf.org
Subject: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal

Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system = proposal which will be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give = everyone a chance to read it over.

 

-Brian

------_=_NextPart_001_01CCA0A4.1B16DA52-- From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Fri Nov 11 11:45:51 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B099921F8ABC for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:45:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.431 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.431 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.168, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XWESBmQrvQId for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:45:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta07.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta07.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A2321F8A95 for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:45:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta15.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.87]) by qmta07.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id vsFB1h00A1swQuc57vlrx7; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:45:51 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([24.62.229.5]) by omta15.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id vvlr1h00b07duvL3bvlrcN; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:45:51 +0000 Message-ID: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:45:48 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clue@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:45:51 -0000 Brian, Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the blackout? This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides for the meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides. Thanks, Paul On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system proposal which will > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give everyone a > chance to read it over. > > -Brian From eckelcu@cisco.com Fri Nov 11 12:05:35 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D93321F8B02 for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:05:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.321, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qjlbZlP0b-aa for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:05:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-1.cisco.com (mtv-iport-1.cisco.com [173.36.130.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C931F21F8AF9 for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:05:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=eckelcu@cisco.com; l=5227; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1321041934; x=1322251534; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:in-reply-to:references:from:to; bh=9bBpzQ1iIFAow+bdXvTLsXwxL3U+oLXsXmv8o98uK4U=; b=beryZOddzs4J1s3/a3McHy76w1FkvnYR9rhLuYEqKgX6PvGXE6uPvD25 iGuNcLIhawsBPqWhCWt6hVIcFeLPruScDPTgdIUyOK/FMfM0A6ICUpsbr 4jfE/DnXjYaJkTsISq4T8MINGnQac2LV8IEsFWY0WFk5ISSfuHCcs488m Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AssAAAN/vU6rRDoI/2dsb2JhbABCmiOPfIEFgXIBAQEEAQEBDwEdCi4GFwQCAQgRBAEBCwYXAQYBJh8JCAEBBAESCBMHh2iaJgGeJgSJG2MEiBCRYIxW X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,496,1315180800"; d="scan'208";a="12110571" Received: from mtv-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.58.8]) by mtv-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Nov 2011 20:05:34 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pABK5YNS021079; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:05:34 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-234.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.111]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:05:34 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:05:31 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC061BAEF0@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute values Thread-Index: AcyfHSl7oacILqVqTnm/IrI6p1xwvAABtv8AADCBHtAAAMn2oAAHuaEAACj3v/A= References: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC061BA905@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com><44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A61CE70F2FD@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC061BAEF0@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: "Allyn Romanow (allyn)" , "Duckworth, Mark" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Nov 2011 20:05:34.0498 (UTC) FILETIME=[45A2B820:01CCA0AD] Subject: Re: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute values X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:05:35 -0000 Hi Allyn, The definition of media capture is source oriented, and that led to my concern that we were missing the receiving side by using the term media capture in the requirement. However, having reread the rest of the requirements, I see they are all written that way. The receiving side of things is implied. The new requirement is consistent with this approach, and I can live with it. Cheers, Charles > -----Original Message----- > From: Allyn Romanow (allyn) > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 5:16 PM > To: Charles Eckel (eckelcu); Duckworth, Mark; clue@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute values >=20 > Hi Charles, >=20 > We could go in this direction, but I feel that it takes the proposed solution and then writes the > requirements to match. > The consumer changing his selection mid call is part of the solution. > I think that the proposal is sufficiently general so you can construe "information about media > captures" to refer to a consumer changing his choices. Does it not seem so to you? >=20 > Best, > Allyn >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > > Charles Eckel (eckelcu) > > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 12:51 PM > > To: Duckworth, Mark; clue@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute > > values > > > > Ah, I see, the definition for media capture was added in > > draft-wenger-clue-definitions-02. The requirements document currently > > references draft-wenger-clue-definitions-01. Updating the reference > > would resolve the missing definition issue. > > However, I think there is another issue. Media captures are provided by > > the producer, and we agree they need to be able to change mid call. The > > new requirement, as stated, covers that. But what about the consumer > > changing its selection mid call of the previously advertised media > > captures? I think we should allow for this choice to change independent > > of any change in the media captures. > > > > Cheers, > > Charles > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > > Of Duckworth, Mark > > > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 12:21 PM > > > To: clue@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute > > values > > > > > > The definition for Media Capture is in both the definitions document > > and the framework document. > > > Media Capture: a source of Media, such as from one or more > > > Capture Devices. A Media Capture (MC) may be the source of one > > > or more Media streams. A Media Capture may also be constructed > > > from other Media streams. A middle box can express Media > > > Captures that it constructs from Media streams it receives. > > > > > > It should be fine to use the same term in the requirements document. > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > > Of Charles Eckel (eckelcu) > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 4:13 PM > > > To: Allyn Romanow (allyn); clue@ietf.org > > > Cc: Botzko, Stephen > > > Subject: Re: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute > > values > > > > > > Hi Allyn, > > > > > > One problem is that we currently have no formal definition for media > > captures. What if we were instead > > > to add: > > > > > > REQMT-16: The solution must support a means for allowing information > > about endpoint characteristics, > > > stream characteristics, and/or source selection policies to change > > during a conference. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Charles > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf > > > Of Allyn Romanow (allyn) > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 12:21 PM > > > > To: clue@ietf.org > > > > Cc: Botzko, Stephen > > > > Subject: [clue] Requirements open issue 4 - dynamic attribute > > values > > > > > > > > Folks, > > > > > > > > Open issue 4 reads > > > > > > > > OPEN-4 Need to capture requirement that attributes can change at > > any > > > time during the call. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is a proposal to add to the document a new requirement > > stating, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > REQMT-16: The solution must support a means for allowing > > information > > > about media captures to change > > > > during a conference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Comments? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Stephen and Allyn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > clue mailing list > > > clue@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > > _______________________________________________ > > > clue mailing list > > > clue@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > _______________________________________________ > > clue mailing list > > clue@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From eckelcu@cisco.com Sat Nov 12 02:54:31 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1095021F8514 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:54:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.287 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.287 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.312, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GHfzThtJAzGq for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:54:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-1.cisco.com (mtv-iport-1.cisco.com [173.36.130.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4072A21F84D8 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:54:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=eckelcu@cisco.com; l=2237; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1321095270; x=1322304870; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:from:to; bh=dNnPAXtu/CW1iEI+One8/PIcHtL1dvP7ZzGFjbQkdN4=; b=cmLVVmwy/G2e7vpRo97Ecycr42P6lcxh1ObytdkjSLyPiKFKAarTgBsJ 1dcEgpqccTv+SfJROzqTfMxln2daM/rGwsEzsT/E6YnGNiE0AtnGOSkhT fB9ea692XbxevYpOSgl1zi3SMwmiSjXQ8ElCamPgTe73I/6G2Isp8a8xZ I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAItPvk6rRDoH/2dsb2JhbABCqi6BBYF0AQQSAR0KOBkBKgYYB1cBBBsangOBJgGdZoZqgjJjBIgQkWKMVg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,499,1315180800"; d="scan'208";a="12183329" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by mtv-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Nov 2011 10:54:29 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pACAsTHn020531 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 10:54:29 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-234.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.111]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:54:29 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 X-CR-Hashedpuzzle: AJ7D APXb BBKa BHpY CpbP C+S0 Ds/c EDsF FOFY FX9S HBEJ HPXo Hg+C IRPo JbZF J/w/; 1; YwBsAHUAZQBAAGkAZQB0AGYALgBvAHIAZwA=; Sosha1_v1; 7; {4C3F0A49-4FAE-419C-B7C3-014BDF03C05F}; ZQBjAGsAZQBsAGMAdQBAAGMAaQBzAGMAbwAuAGMAbwBtAA==; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 00:16:36 GMT; cwBvAG0AZQAgAGMAbwBtAG0AZQBuAHQAcwAgAG8AbgAgAGQAcgBhAGYAdAAtAGkAZQB0AGYALQBjAGwAdQBlAC0AZgByAGEAbQBlAHcAbwByAGsALQAwADEA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-CR-Puzzleid: {4C3F0A49-4FAE-419C-B7C3-014BDF03C05F} Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:54:28 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: some comments on draft-ietf-clue-framework-01 Thread-Index: Acyg0FcQOrjEArnITd++8oAFTGdKWg== From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Nov 2011 10:54:29.0213 (UTC) FILETIME=[739A60D0:01CCA129] Subject: [clue] some comments on draft-ietf-clue-framework-01 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 10:54:31 -0000 Overall, I think the draft looks good. Here are a few comments. Section 5.4. Capture Sets, reads,=20 A media consumer could choose one row of each media type (e.g., audio and video) from a capture set. For example a three stream consumer could choose the first video row plus the audio row, while a single stream consumer could choose the second or third video row plus the audio row. An MCU consumer might choose to receive multiple rows. I believe the intention is to have the consumer be allowed to choose some number or "rows" of each media types. There may be some restrictions due to the simultaneous transmissions sets, but in general the consumer may choose any number of "rows", including zero. How about the following suggested rewording, A media consumer may choose a number of rows of each media type (e.g., audio and video) from a capture set. For example, a three stream consumer might choose the first video row plus the audio row, while a single stream consumer might choose the second or third video row plus the audio row. An MCU consumer might choose to multiple video rows plus the audio row. Section 5.5. Attributes of Capture Sets. I agree with Paul, it seems more appropriate to define "purpose" as a capture set attribute than as a media capture attribute. Section 5.5.1. Area of Scene How would this work for the example provided, o (VC0, VC1, VC2) - camera-left video capture, center video capture, camera-right video capture o (VC3) - capture associated with loudest o (VC4) - zoomed out view of all people in the room o (AC0) - main audio Is it intended to have the area of scene for VC3 and VC4 be the same? I am thinking that a consumer might want both VC3 and VC4, but if they both provide the same area of scene, then how would a consumer figure out the relationship and correlation of one to the other? Would the areas of capture of VC3 change over time, always being some subset of the area of capture of VC4? It is not yet clear to me how the produce describes the relationship of V3 and V4 to the consumer such that the consumer can make an educated choice. Cheers, Charles From eckelcu@cisco.com Sat Nov 12 02:54:32 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAAD421F85C7 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:54:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.295 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.295 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.304, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id toCKSkrwFrWu for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:54:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-1.cisco.com (mtv-iport-1.cisco.com [173.36.130.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CD3121F8586 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:54:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=eckelcu@cisco.com; l=1329; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1321095272; x=1322304872; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:from:to; bh=Lk2UaHDhyU3rWaUylp8xEGaWBsIp/56hof3HUGHfCzE=; b=M89eEcKvLNpX0ANW5kQcEJHKwOWrKo58aj4lJ9puutss4DiChBEVMZ8y +PORGhKxBpqnycsWDUKr84Cl+MC54QQ0E/ZvLkcjLoORPM9dotuQ3WL3s Ec7oWLMBu9+YLzg020+YCCKo3o2vzMrTj3EoraR27AR4rH8yskJSILuS+ M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAItPvk6rRDoG/2dsb2JhbABCqi6BBYF0AQQSAR0KMSABKgYYB1cBBBsangOBJgGdZoZqgjJjBIgQkWKMVg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,499,1315180800"; d="scan'208";a="12183331" Received: from mtv-core-1.cisco.com ([171.68.58.6]) by mtv-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Nov 2011 10:54:32 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by mtv-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pACAsW1M027744 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 10:54:32 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-234.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.111]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:54:32 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:54:32 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: comments on draft-lennox-clue-rtp-usage-01 Thread-Index: Acyg1dQfnCy8QmmFS4iMygSijYKY+g== From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Nov 2011 10:54:32.0340 (UTC) FILETIME=[75778540:01CCA129] Subject: [clue] comments on draft-lennox-clue-rtp-usage-01 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 10:54:32 -0000 Jonathan and Allyn, thanks for putting this draft together. I have a couple comments/questions. Section 3 reads,=20 "During call setup, a single RTP session is negotiated for each media type. In SDP, only one media line is negotiated per media and multiple media streams are sent over the same UDP channel negotiated using the SDP media line." Would it be more accurate to say a single RTP session is negotiated for each media type within a capture set? For example, the framework draft defines a "purpose" attribute, and I would envision one RTP session being negotiated for main video and another for presentation video, as defined in CLUE. Of course, you could multiplex these (and that argument is being debated elsewhere), but I think the basic idea is multiple streams of the media type and purpose be multiplexed in a single RTP session. Reading further I see you touch on this in section 6. Section 5.3, how do you see the combined approach working for audio when you are sending multiple audio streams? I am not an audio expert, so this is not a criticism, it is really a question. Would you send the multiplex ID periodically, or a bunch of times whenever there is a change in the information in hopes that at least one of the packets is received properly? Cheers, Charles From ron.even.tlv@gmail.com Sat Nov 12 07:47:43 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED4F421F86DD for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 07:47:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ape3eSZoQsGO for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 07:47:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yx0-f172.google.com (mail-yx0-f172.google.com [209.85.213.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D1EA21F86A6 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 07:47:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by yenq4 with SMTP id q4so1998546yen.31 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 07:47:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type:x-mailer:thread-index:content-language; bh=bjru2gAI03VofStnGbP7kktFik7BBflrvRAzrNOkQEE=; b=b6elatZ5ld72nxsl7A18AH8Q3JK6Xrn2XG3mENX8JeEFgevKc19PRhazx2ENgJFB6V Evi6eOdFbv4J/JYLzHMt6WmKZ1yo9wFFNeOtwx+gt9NarBPdDMVF8i6Mo6wSlwiECQIk FwyhoM98IUUgYOs62+jTNwoCII/vCy7QfJ3Uw= Received: by 10.68.33.227 with SMTP id u3mr34219676pbi.72.1321112860754; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 07:47:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from windows8d787f9 ([203.69.99.16]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id lt8sm39936397pbb.0.2011.11.12.07.47.37 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 12 Nov 2011 07:47:39 -0800 (PST) From: "Roni Even" To: "'Brian Baldino \(bbaldino\)'" , "'Roni even'" , References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 17:45:02 +0200 Message-ID: <4ebe951b.a87a440a.7d22.ffffd092@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004F_01CCA162.D0A76500" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcyglrjeenPXRU1zQgan6qPu4zIePAACGwyKAAEAkKAAKx2/MA== Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:47:44 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01CCA162.D0A76500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Brian, This proposal do not address the issue of knowing what is the gap between the capture views at the row where people sit which we discussed in the interim meeting unless the X is at the row of participants or it is clear where it is so that it can be calculated. If the origin is not known and the X axis position is not know it does not provide the information. I think that it will not work when you have a system that can do both the regular view and multiview since if you do not know where the X axis is in relation to the row of participant the information will not be enough to know which part of the row you see in the multiview if the regular view will each show two participants. Roni From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian Baldino (bbaldino) Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 9:00 PM To: Roni even; clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal Hey Roni, inline. From: Roni even [mailto:Even.roni@huawei.com] Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 10:35 AM To: Brian Baldino (bbaldino); clue@ietf.org Subject: RE: CLUE Coordinate system proposal Hi Brian, I think that in order to agree we need first to agree on what are the co-ordinates used for. I am not sure why a one capture device TP system will not send co-ordinates if they can be used to scale to real size and maybe if real co-ordinates (mm) are used can also provide relative scaling when composing a mixed video. [BB] I don't believe it's safe to assume that all devices will even be able to know their geometry, so I don't think it's fair to require that they send coordinates expressed in real-world dimensions. As for the origin, again, what is the use here. I am also wondering if you supply X co-ordinates with no other information where in the room are they relating to. I think I am OK with the concept as long as it will be clear that when you provide only x co-ordinates they describe the line of the people in front of the camera (Probably a straight line between the two extreme people). [BB] Not sure I follow all of this, but, the proposal does not allow for expressing only a subset of dimensions when expressing the coordinates (some of the diagrams leave a dimension out for purposes of simplification, this is called out in the text). In an actual CLUE exchange each point would be expressed in all 3 dimensions (with the caveat that a 'NaN'-type value could be used, per some of Stephan's concerns). I also don't think there's anything in there that ties the X plane explicitly to something like a row of participants-I'm not sure that's an assumption we'd want to build in. Regards Roni _____ From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [clue-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Brian Baldino (bbaldino) [bbaldino@cisco.com] Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 19:24 To: clue@ietf.org Subject: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system proposal which will be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give everyone a chance to read it over. -Brian ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01CCA162.D0A76500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Brian,

This proposal do not = address the issue of knowing what is the gap between the capture views = at the row where people sit which we discussed in the interim meeting = unless the X is at the row of participants or it is clear where it is so = that it can be calculated. If the origin is not known and the X axis = position is not know it does not provide the = information.

 

I think that it will not = work when you have a system that can do both the regular view and = multiview since if you do not know where the X axis is in relation to = the row of participant the information will not be enough to know which = part of the row you see in the multiview if the regular view will each = show two participants.

 

Roni

 

From:= = clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Brian Baldino (bbaldino)
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 = 9:00 PM
To: Roni even; clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: = [clue] CLUE Coordinate system = proposal

 

Hey = Roni, inline.

 

From:= = Roni even [mailto:Even.roni@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, = November 11, 2011 10:35 AM
To: Brian Baldino (bbaldino); = clue@ietf.org
Subject: RE: CLUE Coordinate system = proposal

 

= Hi Brian,

= I think that in order to agree we need first to agree on what are the = co-ordinates used for.

= I am not sure why a one capture device TP system will not send = co-ordinates if they can be used to scale to real size and maybe if real = co-ordinates (mm) are used can also provide relative scaling when = composing a mixed video.

[BB] I = don’t believe it’s safe to assume that all devices will even = be able to know their geometry, so I don’t think it’s fair = to require that they send coordinates expressed in real-world = dimensions.

=  

= As for the origin, again, what is the use here. I am also wondering if = you supply X co-ordinates with no other information where in the room = are they relating to.  I think I am OK with the concept as long as = it will be clear that when you provide only x co-ordinates they describe = the line of the people in front of the camera (Probably a straight line = between the two extreme people).

[BB] Not = sure I follow all of this, but, the proposal does not allow for = expressing only a subset of dimensions when expressing the coordinates = (some of the diagrams leave a dimension out for purposes of = simplification, this is called out in the text).  In an actual CLUE = exchange each point would be expressed in all 3 dimensions (with the = caveat that a ‘NaN’-type value could be used, per some of = Stephan’s concerns).  I also don’t think there’s = anything in there that ties the X plane explicitly to something like a = row of participants—I’m not sure that’s an assumption = we’d want to build in.

=  

= Regards

= Roni

= From:= clue-bounces@ietf.org [clue-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Brian = Baldino (bbaldino) [bbaldino@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, November = 11, 2011 19:24
To: clue@ietf.org
Subject: [clue] = CLUE Coordinate system proposal

Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system = proposal which will be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to = give everyone a chance to read it over.

 

-Brian

------=_NextPart_000_004F_01CCA162.D0A76500-- From allyn@cisco.com Sun Nov 13 05:12:28 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80B4621F8B62 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 05:12:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.053 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.053 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.546, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9k-s-T8tooQB for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 05:12:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-2.cisco.com (mtv-iport-2.cisco.com [173.36.130.13]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB0F221F8B55 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 05:12:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=allyn@cisco.com; l=1617; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1321189948; x=1322399548; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:in-reply-to:references:from:to; bh=q6CWhvPlKAsTvcfsixSNCnZ27LFv3H5cUEuujwR2fPI=; b=N425xtmsHGeahbj4TEjbALvbZQVjaBFZDO1cwFD10eBLcnNBdpOlV/zF hMp3qb78mddmbJxI2gpYR8b8OGVyWXQcJPwRozXBuDyAfjQCE2Maz7YD0 oi4Mdn6rzQkG9/8Ym8DiWbNc5bS1uf7OZAO9S32DWFB1cGBGe0Vh4cbkn E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqkAAO7Bv06rRDoH/2dsb2JhbABBDpllkAaBBYFyAQEBBAEBAQ8BHQo0BBMEAgEIDgMEAQEBCgYXAQYBJh8JCAEBBAESCBqHaJcRAZ01BIkcYwSIEJFii35Y X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,502,1315180800"; d="scan'208";a="13909378" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by mtv-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Nov 2011 13:12:26 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pADDCQxC029753; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 13:12:26 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.80]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sun, 13 Nov 2011 05:12:26 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 05:12:24 -0800 Message-ID: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal Thread-Index: Acygqocq8nifnNqvRHGJacy4UR5PtwBWoynw References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> From: "Allyn Romanow (allyn)" To: "Paul Kyzivat" , , "Brian Baldino (bbaldino)" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Nov 2011 13:12:26.0778 (UTC) FILETIME=[E3D44FA0:01CCA205] Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 13:12:28 -0000 I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. This material is potentially for the framework document, not a separate draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle spatial relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already descried in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the framework document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thoughts? The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we thought it would be a good idea to make the material available to people for them to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are going to be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. Thanks, Allyn > -----Original Message----- > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Paul Kyzivat > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM > To: clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal >=20 > Brian, >=20 > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the blackout? >=20 > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides for the > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides. >=20 > Thanks, > Paul >=20 > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system proposal which > will > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give everyone a > > chance to read it over. > > > > -Brian >=20 > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From ietf@meetecho.com Sun Nov 13 05:38:02 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 507A521F8B3E for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 05:38:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.719 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.719 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id klhTHAw23r-D for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 05:38:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpw1.aruba.it (smtpipvs3.aruba.it [62.149.128.188]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 39B4C21F8464 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 05:38:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 31157 invoked by uid 89); 13 Nov 2011 13:37:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO aruba.it) (62.149.158.90) by smtpw1.ad.aruba.it with SMTP; 13 Nov 2011 13:37:59 -0000 Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:37:59 +0100 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Meetecho IETF support" To: clue@ietf.org X-XaM3-API-Version: V3(R2) X-SenderIP: 130.129.21.177 X-Spam-Rating: smtpw1.ad.aruba.it 1.6.2 0/1000/N Subject: [clue] Meetecho support for CLUE WG meeting session X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 13:38:02 -0000 Hi all,=0A=0Aa virtual room has been reserved on the Meetecho system for = tomorrow CLUE WG meeting session.=0A=0AAccess to the on-line session (inc= luding audio and video streams) will be available from 9:00am at:=0Ahttp:= //www.meetecho.com/ietf82/clue=0A=0AThe Meetecho session automatically lo= gs you into the standard IETF jabber room. So, from there, you can have a= n integrated experience involving all media and allowing you to interact = with the room.=0A=0AA tutorial of interactivity features of the tool can = be found at:=0Ahttp://www.meetecho.com/ietf82/tutorials=0A=0AFor further = information you can contact us at ietf-support@meetecho.com.=0A=0ACheers,= =0Athe Meetecho team=0A=C2=A0=0A--=0AMeetecho s.r.l.=0AWeb Conferencing a= nd Collaboration Tools=0Awww.meetecho.com=0A=C2=A0 From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Sun Nov 13 07:32:52 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32DCD21F8B2E for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 07:32:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PZfzGz6k9QDI for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 07:32:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D33E21F8B2A for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 07:32:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta18.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.74]) by qmta05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id wfSF1h0061bwxycA5fYl8R; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:32:45 +0000 Received: from dhcp-471c.meeting.ietf.org ([130.129.71.28]) by omta18.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id wfl91h00X0ccXAy8eflC37; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:45:20 +0000 Message-ID: <4EBFE316.4070007@alum.mit.edu> Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 10:32:38 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Allyn Romanow (allyn)" References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:32:52 -0000 On 11/13/11 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) wrote: > I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. > > This material is potentially for the framework document, not a separate > draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle spatial > relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already descried > in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the framework > document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thoughts? > > The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we thought it > would be a good idea to make the material available to people for them > to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are going to > be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. OK - it wasn't clear what the intent was. If its just a preview of the slides, and the intent is to fold it into the framework then fine. Thanks, Paul > Thanks, > Allyn > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of >> Paul Kyzivat >> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM >> To: clue@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal >> >> Brian, >> >> Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the > blackout? >> >> This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides for the >> meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides. >> >> Thanks, >> Paul >> >> On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: >>> Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system proposal which >> will >>> be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give everyone a >>> chance to read it over. >>> >>> -Brian >> >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > From pauwitty@cisco.com Sun Nov 13 15:02:26 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD4521F8AF8 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:02:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h7H5UvieKvnB for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:02:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7283821F8ABE for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:02:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=pauwitty@cisco.com; l=3031; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1321225345; x=1322434945; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:in-reply-to:references:from:to; bh=JuvEmMtiXzvnnBWw9WZwacX+TX5PVWgM+v91/y3K9AQ=; b=PMzVGkwHeOm5XTt4Xm6v2rF6PqxILPH/qwpLTY+6NowwC+zgtBSr9RMS nB1pCe3h+ansVGgQ1B/wTZxg6aa+Tsr8LMxFJaa4Q4+qDFepxJL2OeDTU j6MqRJKxpBiec3k2/GOUeZADCcF3bc46lxQcrzpADFgHUs78IiMH5teoZ Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EAJ9LwE6Q/khM/2dsb2JhbABCqXuBBYFyAQEBBAEBAQ8BHQoxAxcEAgEIEQQBAQsGFwEGASYfCQgBAQQTCBqHaJhtAZ0yBIZqgjJjBJlyjDY X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,503,1315180800"; d="scan'208";a="59749278" Received: from ams-core-3.cisco.com ([144.254.72.76]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Nov 2011 23:02:21 +0000 Received: from xbh-ams-101.cisco.com (xbh-ams-101.cisco.com [144.254.74.71]) by ams-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pADN2LYu000640 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 23:02:21 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-205.cisco.com ([144.254.75.16]) by xbh-ams-101.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 14 Nov 2011 00:02:21 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 00:02:15 +0100 Message-ID: <934311869133E34C8B7BA5958A860651CEE39B@XMB-AMS-205.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clue] comments on draft-lennox-clue-rtp-usage-01 Thread-Index: Acyg1dQfnCy8QmmFS4iMygSijYKY+gBgHLfg References: From: "Paul Witty (pauwitty)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Nov 2011 23:02:21.0387 (UTC) FILETIME=[4CA909B0:01CCA258] Subject: Re: [clue] comments on draft-lennox-clue-rtp-usage-01 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 23:02:26 -0000 When it comes to RTP sessions, we find ourselves restricted by requirements for compatibility with existing systems; it's much easier to get one video media line, and one audio media line through a border controller than it is to have a slides video media, a sign language video media, a main video, and an audio line. Even if an endpoint offers multiple media lines, it should be willing to e.g. multiplex all video streams, of whatever purpose, into a single video rtp session if this is what the far end negotiates. For audio, with the combined approach my suggestion would be to send the multiplex ID for a short period after changing the stream sent within a particular capture, e.g. for a second or so. With typical 20ms packets, this would be 50 packets, so the hope would be that at least one of these would get through. Of course, there will occasionally be the case where a receiver fails to receive any of these packets containing in a multiplex ID. In this case, I'd suggest reusing the RFC5104 FIR message; for video, on receiving an FIR, we will send an IDR, and each of packet within the IDR will be tagged with the multiplex ID. For audio, on receiving a FIR, we can continue to send media as normal, but tag packets with the multiplex ID for a short period of time. --=20 Paul -----Original Message----- From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Charles Eckel (eckelcu) Sent: 12 November 2011 10:55 To: clue@ietf.org Subject: [clue] comments on draft-lennox-clue-rtp-usage-01 Jonathan and Allyn, thanks for putting this draft together. I have a couple comments/questions. Section 3 reads,=20 "During call setup, a single RTP session is negotiated for each media type. In SDP, only one media line is negotiated per media and multiple media streams are sent over the same UDP channel negotiated using the SDP media line." Would it be more accurate to say a single RTP session is negotiated for each media type within a capture set? For example, the framework draft defines a "purpose" attribute, and I would envision one RTP session being negotiated for main video and another for presentation video, as defined in CLUE. Of course, you could multiplex these (and that argument is being debated elsewhere), but I think the basic idea is multiple streams of the media type and purpose be multiplexed in a single RTP session. Reading further I see you touch on this in section 6. Section 5.3, how do you see the combined approach working for audio when you are sending multiple audio streams? I am not an audio expert, so this is not a criticism, it is really a question. Would you send the multiplex ID periodically, or a bunch of times whenever there is a change in the information in hopes that at least one of the packets is received properly? Cheers, Charles _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com Sun Nov 13 21:32:48 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD73D11E812E for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 21:32:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.137 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.137 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.462, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pzhICo0kSLxs for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 21:32:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vw0-f44.google.com (mail-vw0-f44.google.com [209.85.212.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6453A11E80D4 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 21:32:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws5 with SMTP id 5so5742828vws.31 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 21:32:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=t2ms+4nCRAPWdv2DxwL1liksz+fU5znmgtc+PvCrupQ=; b=TihmQb2yLk4nz5BNNZh3+qxMdtK1WwNqkT/MXXkZv4fv4DCGvLKIbYEJhBzSSh5Ukk nhqaIt+ZERRHM895Esz7lOvg2dSA2OMb+vPr1aDPBxNEw3/mVBJcwXiiCYj0mXwLEDdi BeyIXEkZIjOj3jOYvwcdfIheDW1puSWMmXuYQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.24.13 with SMTP id q13mr2906676vdf.104.1321248765750; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 21:32:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.175.131 with HTTP; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 21:32:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 23:32:45 -0600 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: CLUE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: [clue] Doodle for proposed Interim in Feb (15, 16, 17) X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 05:32:48 -0000 Hi all, Please respond to the doodle if you have an interest in attending a CLUE face to face interim meeting in February, 2011. We will meet for two days (either 15-16, or 16-17) in Andover, Massachusetts (closest airport is Boston). Logistics for the location are on the CLUE WG wiki from the Oct. interim meeting. If you can reply by Dec. 2nd , 2011 that will allow us to properly plan. http://doodle.com/d86zeaqng28eh3ie Regards, Mary. From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com Sun Nov 13 23:39:19 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F027D11E8190; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 23:39:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.174 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.174 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.425, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zMli7c0VtLm1; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 23:39:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vx0-f172.google.com (mail-vx0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F03411E8165; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 23:39:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by vcbfk1 with SMTP id fk1so5676223vcb.31 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 23:39:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=aRlTjEvx7WhMRN7pRziCIYTrcKIsMe2bWz9UgZLV/CE=; b=OgP2JjM8dK0D0nCLN6cVo9KZEzJlubK8pOz4PGgU12WgO9KUkMJv2EnoorxEEVnqQN DVhrfZQoFVul3FZ+7Jv/IR3BSsmmhu7wyD8EJGEiyds5Wqch5DDtx06xtuTI+i4kGNVX eVwbTmdg2yG9dJGLdldO1m+Lf9caXKXaIAEI0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.65.176 with SMTP id y16mr33614532vds.53.1321256349525; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 23:39:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.175.131 with HTTP; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 23:39:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 01:39:09 -0600 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: CLUE , rtcweb@ietf.org, avtcore@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: [clue] CLUE/RTCWEB adhoc - RTP requirements/usages for multi-stream X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 07:39:19 -0000 Hello CLUE, RTCWEB and AVTCORE WG members, Per the discussion in the CLUE WG session this morning, an adhoc is planned on Thursday, 11:40-12:50 (room TBA) to discuss requirements and usages of RTP for multi-stream for CLUE and RTCWEB. Note, this also relates to the discussion today in AVTCORE around multiplexing. A proposed agenda has been appended to the CLUE WG agenda for IETF-82: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/agenda/clue.html Note since the meeting is during lunch, the secretariat is arranging for us to have one of the rooms that allows food, although please consider the note about outside food: http://www.ietf.org/meeting/82/things-to-note.html I will post a note with the room to the mailing list (and update the agenda) as soon as I have the information. Regards, Mary and Ted (as chairs for the adhoc) From Even.roni@huawei.com Mon Nov 14 01:52:37 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABEBA21F8F56 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 01:48:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.494 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.494 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RfSN7TY4mOVQ for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 01:48:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D414821F8EB9 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 01:46:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LUN00GLA9KGV8@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for clue@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:41:04 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LUN00IT79KG03@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for clue@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:41:04 +0800 (CST) Received: from windows8d787f9 (dhcp-17b3.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.23.179]) by szxml11-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0LUN006FO9KFMN@szxml11-in.huawei.com>; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:41:04 +0800 (CST) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 11:38:30 +0200 From: Roni Even To: clue@ietf.org Message-id: <001f01cca2b1$2bc147e0$8343d7a0$%roni@huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_R1t0Dg4PK9mdujd3VlevPw)" Content-language: en-us Thread-index: AcyisSrSfm0wsA58QrCklpq+N6jfFA== Subject: [clue] issue 3 and issue 4 in framework presentation today X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 09:52:56 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_R1t0Dg4PK9mdujd3VlevPw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, I made some comments on the microphone and was asked to provide more input. I think that a presentation that present open issue should reflect the mailing list discussion. The input that is was asked to provide is look at my presentation in the interim meeting (slides 5 and 10) and the mailing list threads titled "Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed pictures" and "Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion" which discuss the topic. I think that this shows that the issue tracker is important to track issues from interim meeting and the mailing list discussion since the current state is we are using the meeting time to bring again the same points we made on the list. Roni Even --Boundary_(ID_R1t0Dg4PK9mdujd3VlevPw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Hi,

I made some comments on the microphone and was asked to provide more input. I think that a presentation that present open issue should reflect the mailing list discussion.

The input that is was asked to provide  is look at my presentation in the interim meeting (slides 5 and 10) and the mailing list  threads titled "Kick-Off Item 5: description of composed pictures" and "Kick-off Item 2: Layout, composition, switching discussion" which discuss the topic.

 

I think that this shows that the issue tracker is important to track issues from interim meeting and the mailing list discussion since the current state is we are  using the meeting time to bring again the same points we made on the list MsoNormal> 

Roni Even

--Boundary_(ID_R1t0Dg4PK9mdujd3VlevPw)-- From mphmmr@gmail.com Mon Nov 14 07:29:00 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AE2211E80CF for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 07:29:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id abANml8HDMjK for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 07:29:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ww0-f44.google.com (mail-ww0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87BD611E80FF for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 07:28:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by wwe5 with SMTP id 5so3233344wwe.13 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 07:28:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=unD2ZTIa67BXDDcq0B8nkq1OJvfunIhGXO+8Xk8SWws=; b=RrSITAfFGlcKzBwqTy8BFFunH7qEKU4yM0hy+b5faDXYgOpAgXvlOJIBeyKOgV1Nmh wCF2tdfPhCYXFay0C5buBLSMDzIqw0N3G2k+4foRmu4sMcolN12Oes7kTtoJ1765zSEU YjEUvGwCNy0s4LRM9D7tosBf7lqiikYnf8TfE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.206.147 with SMTP id fu19mr15319602wbb.22.1321284538711; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 07:28:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.68.66 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 07:28:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 10:28:58 -0500 Message-ID: From: Michael Hammer To: "Allyn Romanow (allyn)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd50a4493bf8204b1b38718 Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:29:00 -0000 --000e0cd50a4493bf8204b1b38718 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Comment from the peanut gallery: 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of reference. 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and lower right (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view Mike On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) wrote: > I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. > > This material is potentially for the framework document, not a separate > draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle spatial > relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already descried > in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the framework > document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thoughts? > > The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we thought it > would be a good idea to make the material available to people for them > to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are going to > be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. > > Thanks, > Allyn > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of > > Paul Kyzivat > > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM > > To: clue@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal > > > > Brian, > > > > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the > blackout? > > > > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides for the > > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides. > > > > Thanks, > > Paul > > > > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: > > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system proposal which > > will > > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give everyone a > > > chance to read it over. > > > > > > -Brian > > > > _______________________________________________ > > clue mailing list > > clue@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > --000e0cd50a4493bf8204b1b38718 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Comment from the peanut gallery:

1. This is a very good = start to clearly explaining the frame of reference.

2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and lower right= (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view

Mike


On Su= n, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) <allyn@cisco.com> wrote:
I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer.

This material is potentially for the framework document, not a separate
draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle spatial relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already descried
in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the framework document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thoughts?

The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we thought it would be a good idea to make the material available to people for them
to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are going to be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE.

Thanks,
Allyn

> -----Original Message-----
> From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of
> Paul Kyzivat
> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM
> To: clue@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal
>
> Brian,
>
> Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the
blackout?
>
> This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides for the > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 Thanks,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 Paul
>
> On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote:
> > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system proposal whi= ch
> will
> > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give everyon= e a
> > chance to read it over.
> >
> > -Brian
>
> _______________________________________________
> clue mailing list
> clue@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
_______________________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue

--000e0cd50a4493bf8204b1b38718-- From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Mon Nov 14 10:56:21 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7043521F8E4C for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 10:56:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.482 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.482 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.117, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m3-Rvi6m6xLH for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 10:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-gx0-f172.google.com (mail-gx0-f172.google.com [209.85.161.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2AAD21F8E47 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 10:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-gx0-f172.google.com with SMTP id r5so1371006ggn.31 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 10:56:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IT2ut+e1BhU6TAimrMX+yQZY63JNAn8kozjhWZ6hTug=; b=oHhXNHGLaMjuSpHXmEqMg+TK+wcvpZL0EdQpTj/+UzzkBrY/g7rz1XlZ+WsWdPJDrg Pfc/JW9B1xKl2DgrmKXnoNL2CiYxgicQeOq9WfB0G125R8p1yyyvFCJRVUQEM6VC4YVV oo74l8256tMPaXyjlq0K0jBMFQ0FgoqaJcWOs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.21.134 with SMTP id v6mr5372528obe.64.1321296980551; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 10:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.159.73 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 10:56:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 13:56:19 -0500 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: Michael Hammer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:56:21 -0000 On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer wrote: > Comment from the peanut gallery: > 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of reference= . > 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and lower right > (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view > Mike Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of view isn't rectangular, or it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points). Regards Marshall * A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down, or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for A - along screen D - depth into audience V - vertical If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will be confused by z not being vertical, etc. > > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) > wrote: >> >> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. >> >> This material is potentially for the framework document, not a separate >> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle spatial >> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already descried >> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the framework >> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thoughts? >> >> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we thought it >> would be a good idea to make the material available to people for them >> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are going to >> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. >> >> Thanks, >> Allyn >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf >> Of >> > Paul Kyzivat >> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM >> > To: clue@ietf.org >> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal >> > >> > Brian, >> > >> > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the >> blackout? >> > >> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides for the >> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides. >> > >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 Thanks, >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 Paul >> > >> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: >> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system proposal which >> > will >> > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give everyone a >> > > chance to read it over. >> > > >> > > -Brian >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > clue mailing list >> > clue@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > From mphmmr@gmail.com Mon Nov 14 12:27:47 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43AFA21F8E87 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:27:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RdLo1X4KtyxK for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:27:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ww0-f44.google.com (mail-ww0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4AA421F8E86 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:27:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by wwe5 with SMTP id 5so3565388wwe.13 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:27:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Wi2QgR4EwyQf9YNhBq4som0An3nQCuD/1UntfI29M98=; b=KmfAB0DmcJt3/J2jdCjuOx6DhPfL2v2pjt9y1Zqea8tlggVDNQfTjU8m6bIuDBLxhX CDrtNbqs//25PDtKjIKiXrDU0ZIhQOyqJtloNWnxjNf4Eqyao/O/iaKDzixKOttqoUA3 wfvS8UmTnZfqDRShv4H2xPgIXkdWIvEkGJ+l8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.206.147 with SMTP id fu19mr16121732wbb.22.1321302462978; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:27:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.80.99 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:27:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:27:42 -0500 Message-ID: From: Michael Hammer To: Marshall Eubanks Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd50a44f25ce404b1b7b394 Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 20:27:47 -0000 --000e0cd50a44f25ce404b1b7b394 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt detectable (delta z values) No problem with using alternate variable names that are more intuitive. Mike On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks < marshall.eubanks@gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer wrote: > > Comment from the peanut gallery: > > 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of > reference. > > 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and lower right > > (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view > > Mike > > Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of view > isn't rectangular, or > it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points). > > Regards > Marshall > > * A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for left-right, > back-front, up-down, > or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for > > A - along screen > D - depth into audience > V - vertical > > If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will be > confused by z not being vertical, etc. > > > > > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) > > wrote: > >> > >> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. > >> > >> This material is potentially for the framework document, not a separate > >> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle spatial > >> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already descried > >> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the framework > >> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thoughts? > >> > >> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we thought it > >> would be a good idea to make the material available to people for them > >> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are going to > >> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Allyn > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > >> Of > >> > Paul Kyzivat > >> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM > >> > To: clue@ietf.org > >> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal > >> > > >> > Brian, > >> > > >> > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the > >> blackout? > >> > > >> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides for the > >> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides. > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > Paul > >> > > >> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: > >> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system proposal which > >> > will > >> > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give everyone a > >> > > chance to read it over. > >> > > > >> > > -Brian > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > clue mailing list > >> > clue@ietf.org > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >> _______________________________________________ > >> clue mailing list > >> clue@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > clue mailing list > > clue@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > > > > --000e0cd50a44f25ce404b1b7b394 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt detectable (delta = z values)

No problem with using alternate variable names= that are more intuitive.

Mike


On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubank= s <marsh= all.eubanks@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer <mphmmr@gmail.com> wrote:
> Comment from the peanut gallery:
> 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of refere= nce.
> 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and lower ri= ght
> (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view
> Mike

Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of view
isn't rectangular, or
it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points).

Regards
Marshall

* A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for left-right,
back-front, up-down,
or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for

A - along screen
D - depth into audience
V - vertical

If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will be
confused by z not being vertical, etc.

>
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) <allyn@cisco.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer.
>>
>> This material is potentially for the framework document, not a sep= arate
>> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle s= patial
>> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already desc= ried
>> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the fra= mework
>> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thoughts?=
>>
>> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we thou= ght it
>> would be a good idea to make the material available to people for = them
>> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are go= ing to
>> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Allyn
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: clue-bounces@i= etf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@i= etf.org] On Behalf
>> Of
>> > Paul Kyzivat
>> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM
>> > To: clue@ietf.org
>> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal
>> >
>> > Brian,
>> >
>> > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the=
>> blackout?
>> >
>> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides f= or the
>> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slide= s.
>> >
>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 Thanks,
>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 Paul
>> >
>> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote:
>> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system pro= posal which
>> > will
>> > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to giv= e everyone a
>> > > chance to read it over.
>> > >
>> > > -Brian
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > clue mailing list
>> > clue@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>> _______________________________________________
>> clue mailing list
>> clue@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> clue mailing list
> clue@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>
>

--000e0cd50a44f25ce404b1b7b394-- From Christian.Groves@nteczone.com Mon Nov 14 14:31:41 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CFC311E8348 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 14:31:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.461 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.461 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.138, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t1xutvNGKYot for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 14:31:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net (ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net [150.101.137.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59FC211E8323 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 14:31:40 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AjkAAC6UwU520cP+/2dsb2JhbAAMN5ljknwBAQEEAQEBNRsbBAYNBAsRBAEBAQkWCAcJAwIBAgEPBh8JCBMGAgEBiAa5NwSJfwSeeYdC Received: from ppp118-209-195-254.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net (HELO [127.0.0.1]) ([118.209.195.254]) by ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 15 Nov 2011 09:01:37 +1030 Message-ID: <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:31:34 +1100 From: Christian Groves User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clue@ietf.org References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 22:31:41 -0000 I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. Do long as its used consistently I think its more intuitive than coming up with yet another naming convention. Christian On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote: > I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt detectable > (delta z values) > > No problem with using alternate variable names that are more intuitive. > > Mike > > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks > > wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer > wrote: > > Comment from the peanut gallery: > > 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of > reference. > > 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and > lower right > > (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view > > Mike > > Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of view > isn't rectangular, or > it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points). > > Regards > Marshall > > * A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for left-right, > back-front, up-down, > or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for > > A - along screen > D - depth into audience > V - vertical > > If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will be > confused by z not being vertical, etc. > > > > > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) > > > > wrote: > >> > >> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. > >> > >> This material is potentially for the framework document, not a > separate > >> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle > spatial > >> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already > descried > >> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the > framework > >> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thoughts? > >> > >> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we > thought it > >> would be a good idea to make the material available to people > for them > >> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are > going to > >> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Allyn > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org > [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org ] On > Behalf > >> Of > >> > Paul Kyzivat > >> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM > >> > To: clue@ietf.org > >> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal > >> > > >> > Brian, > >> > > >> > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the > >> blackout? > >> > > >> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides > for the > >> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides. > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > Paul > >> > > >> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: > >> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system > proposal which > >> > will > >> > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give > everyone a > >> > > chance to read it over. > >> > > > >> > > -Brian > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > clue mailing list > >> > clue@ietf.org > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >> _______________________________________________ > >> clue mailing list > >> clue@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > clue mailing list > > clue@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Mon Nov 14 15:05:01 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E2291F0CBF for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:05:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.483 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.483 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.116, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eF469ShMLj7S for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:05:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-fx0-f44.google.com (mail-fx0-f44.google.com [209.85.161.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B3D11F0C6C for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:05:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by faap16 with SMTP id p16so1605411faa.31 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:04:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=G55NCoixPgQsavb+xcj3tHWFiFggnZopY+1uIMFy67M=; b=m7rytfK7W6AY67tKl6Aj/Uw+Y/nGuXWYqvYOYCy94mC+oJaRVfiCzZzsTuT9BMLEtH 7/jU7QKj3y6lI3Nfhbm0Peq7fKI4lN6j6rVQq2mhVOT3IlYxmqZheIw8NJdaKJcxcoEG 8OoHCDwqEwNqxnbzsYw/6VhG803QaIpDWue2c= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.115.106 with SMTP id jn10mr5550799obb.54.1321311898999; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:04:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.159.73 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:04:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:04:58 -0500 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: Christian Groves Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 23:05:01 -0000 On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Christian Groves wrote: > I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. I prefer too as well. I think it matches general use. I made my proposal purely in case some people felt strongly that we need to do something non-standard. Do long as its > used consistently I think its more intuitive than coming up with yet anot= her > naming convention. > Agree Marshall > Christian > > On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote: >> >> I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt detectable (del= ta >> z values) >> >> No problem with using alternate variable names that are more intuitive. >> >> Mike >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks >> > wrote: >> >> =A0 =A0On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer > =A0 =A0> wrote: >> =A0 =A0> Comment from the peanut gallery: >> =A0 =A0> 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of >> =A0 =A0reference. >> =A0 =A0> 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and >> =A0 =A0lower right >> =A0 =A0> (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view >> =A0 =A0> Mike >> >> =A0 =A0Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of vie= w >> =A0 =A0isn't rectangular, or >> =A0 =A0it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points). >> >> =A0 =A0Regards >> =A0 =A0Marshall >> >> =A0 =A0* A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for left-righ= t, >> =A0 =A0back-front, up-down, >> =A0 =A0or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for >> >> =A0 =A0A - along screen >> =A0 =A0D - depth into audience >> =A0 =A0V - vertical >> >> =A0 =A0If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will b= e >> =A0 =A0confused by z not being vertical, etc. >> >> =A0 =A0> >> =A0 =A0> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) >> =A0 =A0> >> =A0 =A0> wrote: >> =A0 =A0>> >> =A0 =A0>> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. >> =A0 =A0>> >> =A0 =A0>> This material is potentially for the framework document, not a >> =A0 =A0separate >> =A0 =A0>> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle >> =A0 =A0spatial >> =A0 =A0>> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already >> =A0 =A0descried >> =A0 =A0>> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the >> =A0 =A0framework >> =A0 =A0>> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thoug= hts? >> =A0 =A0>> >> =A0 =A0>> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we >> =A0 =A0thought it >> =A0 =A0>> would be a good idea to make the material available to people >> =A0 =A0for them >> =A0 =A0>> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that ar= e >> =A0 =A0going to >> =A0 =A0>> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. >> =A0 =A0>> >> =A0 =A0>> Thanks, >> =A0 =A0>> Allyn >> =A0 =A0>> >> =A0 =A0>> > -----Original Message----- >> =A0 =A0>> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org >> =A0 =A0[mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org ] On >> =A0 =A0Behalf >> =A0 =A0>> Of >> =A0 =A0>> > Paul Kyzivat >> =A0 =A0>> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM >> =A0 =A0>> > To: clue@ietf.org >> =A0 =A0>> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal >> =A0 =A0>> > >> =A0 =A0>> > Brian, >> =A0 =A0>> > >> =A0 =A0>> > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past th= e >> =A0 =A0>> blackout? >> =A0 =A0>> > >> =A0 =A0>> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides >> =A0 =A0for the >> =A0 =A0>> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slid= es. >> =A0 =A0>> > >> =A0 =A0>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 Thanks, >> =A0 =A0>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 Paul >> =A0 =A0>> > >> =A0 =A0>> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: >> =A0 =A0>> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system >> =A0 =A0proposal which >> =A0 =A0>> > will >> =A0 =A0>> > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give >> =A0 =A0everyone a >> =A0 =A0>> > > chance to read it over. >> =A0 =A0>> > > >> =A0 =A0>> > > -Brian >> =A0 =A0>> > >> =A0 =A0>> > _______________________________________________ >> =A0 =A0>> > clue mailing list >> =A0 =A0>> > clue@ietf.org >> =A0 =A0>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> =A0 =A0>> _______________________________________________ >> =A0 =A0>> clue mailing list >> =A0 =A0>> clue@ietf.org >> =A0 =A0>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> =A0 =A0> >> =A0 =A0> >> =A0 =A0> _______________________________________________ >> =A0 =A0> clue mailing list >> =A0 =A0> clue@ietf.org >> =A0 =A0> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> =A0 =A0> >> =A0 =A0> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > From Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com Mon Nov 14 15:49:10 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF3A121F8DDF for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:49:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YsW4plXwQz0u for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:49:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from Crpehubprd01.polycom.com (crpehubprd01.polycom.com [140.242.64.158]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B4B421F8DC7 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:49:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from Crpmboxprd01.polycom.com ([fe80::ad68:5a0:c919:66b6]) by Crpehubprd01.polycom.com ([fe80::5efe:10.236.0.158%14]) with mapi; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:49:07 -0800 From: "Duckworth, Mark" To: "clue@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:49:03 -0800 Thread-Topic: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal Thread-Index: AcyjIdn0kJkpwx3GRd+Xc2FEeActeQABKb7Q Message-ID: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A6102FA0A2639@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 23:49:10 -0000 > I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. That's fine with me too. As for using 2 points or 4 points or some other way of describing the area,= it does get a bit tricky if you want to be really exact about it. Using o= nly two points would mean we have to make some other limitations about the = orientation of the rectangular area (and confine it to a rectangle). I tho= ught we probably don't want to impose those limitations. I was thinking we= use 4 points in the same plane to define a quadrilateral. I think it woul= d work out fine if implementers used these 4 points to define rectangles pe= rpendicular to the floor even if it isn't exactly correct for the angle of = the camera. But I'm open to other ideas. Mark -----Original Message----- From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mar= shall Eubanks Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 7:05 AM To: Christian Groves Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Christian Groves wrote: > I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. I prefer too as well. I think it matches general use. I made my proposal pu= rely in case some people felt strongly that we need to do something non-sta= ndard. Do long as its > used consistently I think its more intuitive than coming up with yet=20 > another naming convention. > Agree Marshall > Christian > > On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote: >> >> I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt detectable=20 >> (delta z values) >> >> No problem with using alternate variable names that are more intuitive. >> >> Mike >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks=20 >> > wrote: >> >> =A0 =A0On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer > =A0 =A0> wrote: >> =A0 =A0> Comment from the peanut gallery: >> =A0 =A0> 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of >> =A0 =A0reference. >> =A0 =A0> 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and >> =A0 =A0lower right >> =A0 =A0> (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view >> =A0 =A0> Mike >> >> =A0 =A0Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of vie= w >> =A0 =A0isn't rectangular, or >> =A0 =A0it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points). >> >> =A0 =A0Regards >> =A0 =A0Marshall >> >> =A0 =A0* A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for=20 >> left-right, >> =A0 =A0back-front, up-down, >> =A0 =A0or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for >> >> =A0 =A0A - along screen >> =A0 =A0D - depth into audience >> =A0 =A0V - vertical >> >> =A0 =A0If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will b= e >> =A0 =A0confused by z not being vertical, etc. >> >> =A0 =A0> >> =A0 =A0> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) >> =A0 =A0> >> =A0 =A0> wrote: >> =A0 =A0>> >> =A0 =A0>> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. >> =A0 =A0>> >> =A0 =A0>> This material is potentially for the framework document, not a >> =A0 =A0separate >> =A0 =A0>> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle >> =A0 =A0spatial >> =A0 =A0>> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already >> =A0 =A0descried >> =A0 =A0>> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the >> =A0 =A0framework >> =A0 =A0>> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thoug= hts? >> =A0 =A0>> >> =A0 =A0>> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we >> =A0 =A0thought it >> =A0 =A0>> would be a good idea to make the material available to people >> =A0 =A0for them >> =A0 =A0>> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that ar= e >> =A0 =A0going to >> =A0 =A0>> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. >> =A0 =A0>> >> =A0 =A0>> Thanks, >> =A0 =A0>> Allyn >> =A0 =A0>> >> =A0 =A0>> > -----Original Message----- >> =A0 =A0>> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org >> =A0 =A0[mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org ] On >> =A0 =A0Behalf >> =A0 =A0>> Of >> =A0 =A0>> > Paul Kyzivat >> =A0 =A0>> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM >> =A0 =A0>> > To: clue@ietf.org >> =A0 =A0>> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal >> =A0 =A0>> > >> =A0 =A0>> > Brian, >> =A0 =A0>> > >> =A0 =A0>> > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past th= e >> =A0 =A0>> blackout? >> =A0 =A0>> > >> =A0 =A0>> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides >> =A0 =A0for the >> =A0 =A0>> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slid= es. >> =A0 =A0>> > >> =A0 =A0>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 Thanks, >> =A0 =A0>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 Paul >> =A0 =A0>> > >> =A0 =A0>> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: >> =A0 =A0>> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system >> =A0 =A0proposal which >> =A0 =A0>> > will >> =A0 =A0>> > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give >> =A0 =A0everyone a >> =A0 =A0>> > > chance to read it over. >> =A0 =A0>> > > >> =A0 =A0>> > > -Brian >> =A0 =A0>> > >> =A0 =A0>> > _______________________________________________ >> =A0 =A0>> > clue mailing list >> =A0 =A0>> > clue@ietf.org >> =A0 =A0>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> =A0 =A0>> _______________________________________________ >> =A0 =A0>> clue mailing list >> =A0 =A0>> clue@ietf.org >> =A0 =A0>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> =A0 =A0> >> =A0 =A0> >> =A0 =A0> _______________________________________________ >> =A0 =A0> clue mailing list >> =A0 =A0> clue@ietf.org >> =A0 =A0> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> =A0 =A0> >> =A0 =A0> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From stephen.botzko@gmail.com Mon Nov 14 16:38:11 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70CC411E80D0 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:38:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.36 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.36 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.238, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3ePEtKXA0khH for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:38:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vw0-f44.google.com (mail-vw0-f44.google.com [209.85.212.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09BCB11E809B for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:38:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws5 with SMTP id 5so6776734vws.31 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:38:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=hbLPC3UCjnkgveSX51b5bFQVB2EURbYVe5u+PdE9Kp4=; b=Rog6ytWEWFElaJg124+ytUHo5ezAWVwImKUvnf+SQrn9XdS3YKWgAAA7apRwiAexkq N5yOGiCZmnz3eTtcvx1NwXTsRBKWr31JIpF5CU8EVILksWDso/6l+OH/gkxrmGCtX6Su 8CICpZ6dZYpXOrnfUcI1uMTET0f3JFhx9sQk4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.70.167 with SMTP id n7mr38631296vdu.67.1321317489533; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:38:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.183.33 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:38:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A6102FA0A2639@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A6102FA0A2639@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:38:09 +0800 Message-ID: From: Stephen Botzko To: "Duckworth, Mark" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec50164e399636a04b1bb33a7 Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 00:38:11 -0000 --bcaec50164e399636a04b1bb33a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I agree that x,y,z is best. Two points for rectangles only works if the point of capture is also signaled (otherwise you can not determine the plane). Since signaling point of capture is optional, I prefer to send all four points. (it also somewhat simplifies the computation needed in the receiver). Stephen Botzko On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:49 AM, Duckworth, Mark wrote: > > I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. > That's fine with me too. > > As for using 2 points or 4 points or some other way of describing the > area, it does get a bit tricky if you want to be really exact about it. > Using only two points would mean we have to make some other limitations > about the orientation of the rectangular area (and confine it to a > rectangle). I thought we probably don't want to impose those limitations. > I was thinking we use 4 points in the same plane to define a > quadrilateral. I think it would work out fine if implementers used these 4 > points to define rectangles perpendicular to the floor even if it isn't > exactly correct for the angle of the camera. But I'm open to other ideas. > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Marshall Eubanks > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 7:05 AM > To: Christian Groves > Cc: clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Christian Groves < > Christian.Groves@nteczone.com> wrote: > > I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. > > I prefer too as well. I think it matches general use. I made my proposal > purely in case some people felt strongly that we need to do something > non-standard. > > Do long as its > > used consistently I think its more intuitive than coming up with yet > > another naming convention. > > > > Agree > > Marshall > > > Christian > > > > On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote: > >> > >> I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt detectable > >> (delta z values) > >> > >> No problem with using alternate variable names that are more intuitive. > >> > >> Mike > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks > >> > wrote: > >> > >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer >> > wrote: > >> > Comment from the peanut gallery: > >> > 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of > >> reference. > >> > 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and > >> lower right > >> > (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view > >> > Mike > >> > >> Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of view > >> isn't rectangular, or > >> it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points). > >> > >> Regards > >> Marshall > >> > >> * A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for > >> left-right, > >> back-front, up-down, > >> or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for > >> > >> A - along screen > >> D - depth into audience > >> V - vertical > >> > >> If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will be > >> confused by z not being vertical, etc. > >> > >> > > >> > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) > >> > > >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. > >> >> > >> >> This material is potentially for the framework document, not a > >> separate > >> >> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle > >> spatial > >> >> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already > >> descried > >> >> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the > >> framework > >> >> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thoughts? > >> >> > >> >> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we > >> thought it > >> >> would be a good idea to make the material available to people > >> for them > >> >> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are > >> going to > >> >> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. > >> >> > >> >> Thanks, > >> >> Allyn > >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org > >> [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org ] On > >> Behalf > >> >> Of > >> >> > Paul Kyzivat > >> >> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM > >> >> > To: clue@ietf.org > >> >> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal > >> >> > > >> >> > Brian, > >> >> > > >> >> > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the > >> >> blackout? > >> >> > > >> >> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides > >> for the > >> >> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides. > >> >> > > >> >> > Thanks, > >> >> > Paul > >> >> > > >> >> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: > >> >> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system > >> proposal which > >> >> > will > >> >> > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give > >> everyone a > >> >> > > chance to read it over. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > -Brian > >> >> > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > clue mailing list > >> >> > clue@ietf.org > >> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> clue mailing list > >> >> clue@ietf.org > >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > clue mailing list > >> > clue@ietf.org > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> clue mailing list > >> clue@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > > > _______________________________________________ > > clue mailing list > > clue@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > --bcaec50164e399636a04b1bb33a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree that x,y,z is best. =A0

=A0Two points for rectangles only w= orks if the point of capture is also signaled (otherwise you can not determ= ine the plane).=A0 Since signaling point of capture is optional, I prefer t= o send all four points. (it also somewhat simplifies the computation needed= in the receiver).

Stephen Botzko


On Tue, Nov 15, 20= 11 at 7:49 AM, Duckworth, Mark <Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com> wrote:
> I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-fro= nt, up-down.
That's fine with me too.

As for using 2 points or 4 points or some other way of describing the area,= it does get a bit tricky if you want to be really exact about it. =A0Using= only two points would mean we have to make some other limitations about th= e orientation of the rectangular area (and confine it to a rectangle). =A0I= thought we probably don't want to impose those limitations. =A0I was t= hinking we use 4 points in the same plane to define a quadrilateral. =A0I t= hink it would work out fine if implementers used these 4 points to define r= ectangles perpendicular to the floor even if it isn't exactly correct f= or the angle of the camera. =A0But I'm open to other ideas.

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [m= ailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] O= n Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 7:05 AM
To: Christian Groves
Cc: clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Christian Groves <Christian.Groves@nteczone.com> wrote: > I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down.

I prefer too as well. I think it matches general use. I made my proposal pu= rely in case some people felt strongly that we need to do something non-sta= ndard.

=A0Do long as its
> used consistently I think its more intuitive than coming up with yet > another naming convention.
>

Agree

Marshall

> Christian
>
> On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote:
>>
>> I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt detectabl= e
>> (delta z values)
>>
>> No problem with using alternate variable names that are more intui= tive.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks
>> <marshall.eubanks= @gmail.com <mailto:mar= shall.eubanks@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> =A0 =A0On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer <mphmmr@gmail.com
>> =A0 =A0<mailto:mphmmr@gmail= .com>> wrote:
>> =A0 =A0> Comment from the peanut gallery:
>> =A0 =A0> 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the= frame of
>> =A0 =A0reference.
>> =A0 =A0> 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper l= eft and
>> =A0 =A0lower right
>> =A0 =A0> (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define t= he view
>> =A0 =A0> Mike
>>
>> =A0 =A0Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field = of view
>> =A0 =A0isn't rectangular, or
>> =A0 =A0it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those point= s).
>>
>> =A0 =A0Regards
>> =A0 =A0Marshall
>>
>> =A0 =A0* A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for
>> left-right,
>> =A0 =A0back-front, up-down,
>> =A0 =A0or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (f= or
>>
>> =A0 =A0A - along screen
>> =A0 =A0D - depth into audience
>> =A0 =A0V - vertical
>>
>> =A0 =A0If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one = will be
>> =A0 =A0confused by z not being vertical, etc.
>>
>> =A0 =A0>
>> =A0 =A0> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn)=
>> =A0 =A0<allyn@cisco.com = <mailto:allyn@cisco.com>> >> =A0 =A0> wrote:
>> =A0 =A0>>
>> =A0 =A0>> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. >> =A0 =A0>>
>> =A0 =A0>> This material is potentially for the framework doc= ument, not a
>> =A0 =A0separate
>> =A0 =A0>> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for= how to handle
>> =A0 =A0spatial
>> =A0 =A0>> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that = are already
>> =A0 =A0descried
>> =A0 =A0>> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get = put into the
>> =A0 =A0framework
>> =A0 =A0>> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you= other thoughts?
>> =A0 =A0>>
>> =A0 =A0>> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian me= ntioned, we
>> =A0 =A0thought it
>> =A0 =A0>> would be a good idea to make the material availabl= e to people
>> =A0 =A0for them
>> =A0 =A0>> to think about prior to hearing about it in the sl= ides that are
>> =A0 =A0going to
>> =A0 =A0>> be presented during the framework discussion in CL= UE.
>> =A0 =A0>>
>> =A0 =A0>> Thanks,
>> =A0 =A0>> Allyn
>> =A0 =A0>>
>> =A0 =A0>> > -----Original Message-----
>> =A0 =A0>> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org>
>> =A0 =A0[mailto:clue-bounc= es@ietf.org <mailto:clue-bo= unces@ietf.org>] On
>> =A0 =A0Behalf
>> =A0 =A0>> Of
>> =A0 =A0>> > Paul Kyzivat
>> =A0 =A0>> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM
>> =A0 =A0>> > To: clue@iet= f.org <mailto:clue@ietf.org>=
>> =A0 =A0>> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system pr= oposal
>> =A0 =A0>> >
>> =A0 =A0>> > Brian,
>> =A0 =A0>> >
>> =A0 =A0>> > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once= we get past the
>> =A0 =A0>> blackout?
>> =A0 =A0>> >
>> =A0 =A0>> > This seems to be largely replicated in the fr= amework slides
>> =A0 =A0for the
>> =A0 =A0>> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss ba= sed on the slides.
>> =A0 =A0>> >
>> =A0 =A0>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 Thanks,
>> =A0 =A0>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 Paul
>> =A0 =A0>> >
>> =A0 =A0>> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino= ) wrote:
>> =A0 =A0>> > > Attached is the doc describing the coord= inate system
>> =A0 =A0proposal which
>> =A0 =A0>> > will
>> =A0 =A0>> > > be presented next week; wanted to send i= t out now to give
>> =A0 =A0everyone a
>> =A0 =A0>> > > chance to read it over.
>> =A0 =A0>> > >
>> =A0 =A0>> > > -Brian
>> =A0 =A0>> >
>> =A0 =A0>> > _____________________________________________= __
>> =A0 =A0>> > clue mailing list
>> =A0 =A0>> > clue@ietf.or= g <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
>> =A0 =A0>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue<= br> >> =A0 =A0>> _______________________________________________ >> =A0 =A0>> clue mailing list
>> =A0 =A0>> clue@ietf.org= <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
>> =A0 =A0>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>> =A0 =A0>
>> =A0 =A0>
>> =A0 =A0> _______________________________________________
>> =A0 =A0> clue mailing list
>> =A0 =A0> clue@ietf.org <= ;mailto:clue@ietf.org>
>> =A0 =A0> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>> =A0 =A0>
>> =A0 =A0>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> clue mailing list
>> clue@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>
> _______________________________________________
> clue mailing list
> clue@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>
_______________________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
_______________________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue

--bcaec50164e399636a04b1bb33a7-- From coverdale@sympatico.ca Mon Nov 14 16:43:36 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 877A921F8E5C for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:43:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.795 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.795 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K1kEzjqhNBAr for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:43:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from blu0-omc1-s32.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc1-s32.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.43]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03A9F21F8E3E for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:43:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLU0-SMTP55 ([65.55.116.8]) by blu0-omc1-s32.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:43:28 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [130.129.39.34] X-Originating-Email: [coverdale@sympatico.ca] Message-ID: Received: from PaulNewPC ([130.129.39.34]) by BLU0-SMTP55.phx.gbl over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:43:26 -0800 From: Paul Coverdale To: "'Stephen Botzko'" , "'Duckworth, Mark'" References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A6102FA0A2639@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:43:21 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CCA372.A43A86C0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcyjLvAp9liG3kC5QBKOZpNyjnHhVQAAD2Hg Content-Language: en-us X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Nov 2011 00:43:27.0143 (UTC) FILETIME=[968BB370:01CCA32F] Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 00:43:36 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CCA372.A43A86C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For the camera direction, wouldn't it be more logical to define it in azimuth-elevation (in degrees)? .Paul From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Botzko Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:38 AM To: Duckworth, Mark Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal I agree that x,y,z is best. Two points for rectangles only works if the point of capture is also signaled (otherwise you can not determine the plane). Since signaling point of capture is optional, I prefer to send all four points. (it also somewhat simplifies the computation needed in the receiver). Stephen Botzko On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:49 AM, Duckworth, Mark wrote: > I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. That's fine with me too. As for using 2 points or 4 points or some other way of describing the area, it does get a bit tricky if you want to be really exact about it. Using only two points would mean we have to make some other limitations about the orientation of the rectangular area (and confine it to a rectangle). I thought we probably don't want to impose those limitations. I was thinking we use 4 points in the same plane to define a quadrilateral. I think it would work out fine if implementers used these 4 points to define rectangles perpendicular to the floor even if it isn't exactly correct for the angle of the camera. But I'm open to other ideas. Mark -----Original Message----- From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 7:05 AM To: Christian Groves Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Christian Groves wrote: > I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. I prefer too as well. I think it matches general use. I made my proposal purely in case some people felt strongly that we need to do something non-standard. Do long as its > used consistently I think its more intuitive than coming up with yet > another naming convention. > Agree Marshall > Christian > > On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote: >> >> I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt detectable >> (delta z values) >> >> No problem with using alternate variable names that are more intuitive. >> >> Mike >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks >> > wrote: >> >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer > > wrote: >> > Comment from the peanut gallery: >> > 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of >> reference. >> > 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and >> lower right >> > (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view >> > Mike >> >> Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of view >> isn't rectangular, or >> it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points). >> >> Regards >> Marshall >> >> * A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for >> left-right, >> back-front, up-down, >> or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for >> >> A - along screen >> D - depth into audience >> V - vertical >> >> If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will be >> confused by z not being vertical, etc. >> >> > >> > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) >> > >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. >> >> >> >> This material is potentially for the framework document, not a >> separate >> >> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle >> spatial >> >> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already >> descried >> >> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the >> framework >> >> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thoughts? >> >> >> >> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we >> thought it >> >> would be a good idea to make the material available to people >> for them >> >> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are >> going to >> >> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Allyn >> >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org >> [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org ] On >> Behalf >> >> Of >> >> > Paul Kyzivat >> >> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM >> >> > To: clue@ietf.org >> >> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal >> >> > >> >> > Brian, >> >> > >> >> > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the >> >> blackout? >> >> > >> >> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides >> for the >> >> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides. >> >> > >> >> > Thanks, >> >> > Paul >> >> > >> >> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: >> >> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system >> proposal which >> >> > will >> >> > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give >> everyone a >> >> > > chance to read it over. >> >> > > >> >> > > -Brian >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > clue mailing list >> >> > clue@ietf.org >> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> clue mailing list >> >> clue@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > clue mailing list >> > clue@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CCA372.A43A86C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For the camera direction, wouldn’t it be more logical to define = it in azimuth-elevation (in  degrees)?

 

…Paul

 

From:= = clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Stephen Botzko
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:38 = AM
To: Duckworth, Mark
Cc: = clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system = proposal

 

I agree that x,y,z is best.   =

 Two points for rectangles only works if the point of = capture is also signaled (otherwise you can not determine the = plane).  Since signaling point of capture is optional, I prefer to = send all four points. (it also somewhat simplifies the computation = needed in the receiver).

Stephen = Botzko

On Tue, Nov 15, = 2011 at 7:49 AM, Duckworth, Mark <Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com= > wrote:

> I'd prefer to = use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down.

That's fine with me too.

As for using 2 points = or 4 points or some other way of describing the area, it does get a bit = tricky if you want to be really exact about it.  Using only two = points would mean we have to make some other limitations about the = orientation of the rectangular area (and confine it to a rectangle). =  I thought we probably don't want to impose those limitations. =  I was thinking we use 4 points in the same plane to define a = quadrilateral.  I think it would work out fine if implementers used = these 4 points to define rectangles perpendicular to the floor even if = it isn't exactly correct for the angle of the camera.  But I'm open = to other ideas.

Mark


-----Original Message-----
From: clue-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 7:05 = AM
To: Christian Groves
Cc: clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] = CLUE Coordinate system proposal

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 5:31 PM, = Christian Groves <Christian.Groves@nteczone.c= om> wrote:
> I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, = back-front, up-down.

I prefer too as well. I think it matches = general use. I made my proposal purely in case some people felt strongly = that we need to do something non-standard.

 Do long as = its
> used consistently I think its more intuitive than coming up = with yet
> another naming = convention.
>

Agree

Marshall

> = Christian
>
> On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer = wrote:
>>
>> I was still assuming the z component was = used, thus tilt detectable
>> (delta z = values)
>>
>> No problem with using alternate variable = names that are more intuitive.
>>
>> = Mike
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 = PM, Marshall Eubanks
>> <marshall.eubanks@gmail.com= <mailto:marshall.eubanks@gmail.com= >> wrote:
>>
>>    On Mon, Nov 14, = 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer <mphmmr@gmail.com
>>   =  <mailto:mphmmr@gmail.com>> = wrote:
>>    > Comment from the peanut = gallery:
>>    > 1. This is a very good start to = clearly explaining the frame of
>>   =  reference.
>>    > 2. If a rectangular = system is always used, the upper left and
>>    lower = right
>>    > (or vice versa) points would be = sufficient to define the view
>>    > = Mike
>>
>>    Note that if the cameras are = tilted, then either the field of view
>>    isn't = rectangular, or
>>    it has a tilt (i.e., you have = to know the z* of those points).
>>
>>   =  Regards
>>    Marshall
>>
>> =    * A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z = for
>> left-right,
>>    back-front, = up-down,
>>    or abandon that terminology entirely ? = How about A, D, V (for
>>
>>    A - along = screen
>>    D - depth into audience
>> =    V - vertical
>>
>>    If we use = a completely different nomenclature, then no one will be
>> =    confused by z not being vertical, = etc.
>>
>>    >
>>   =  > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow = (allyn)
>>    <allyn@cisco.com <mailto:allyn@cisco.com>>
>> =    > wrote:
>>    >>
>> =    >> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll = answer.
>>    >>
>>   =  >> This material is potentially for the framework document, = not a
>>    separate
>>   =  >> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to = handle
>>    spatial
>>   =  >> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are = already
>>    descried
>>   =  >> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put = into the
>>    framework
>>   =  >> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other = thoughts?
>>    >>
>>   =  >> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian = mentioned, we
>>    thought it
>>   =  >> would be a good idea to make the material available to = people
>>    for them
>>   =  >> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides = that are
>>    going to
>>   =  >> be presented during the framework discussion in = CLUE.
>>    >>
>>   =  >> Thanks,
>>    >> = Allyn
>>    >>
>>   =  >> > -----Original Message-----
>>   =  >> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org = <mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org>
&g= t;>    [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org = <mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org>] = On
>>    Behalf
>>    >> = Of
>>    >> > Paul Kyzivat
>> =    >> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 = AM
>>    >> > To: clue@ietf.org <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
>>   =  >> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system = proposal
>>    >> >
>>   =  >> > Brian,
>>    >> = >
>>    >> > Do you intend to publish = this as a draft once we get past the
>>    >> = blackout?
>>    >> >
>>   =  >> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework = slides
>>    for the
>>   =  >> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on = the slides.
>>    >> >
>>   =  >> >       Thanks,
>>   =  >> >       Paul
>>   =  >> >
>>    >> > On 11/11/11 = 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote:
>>   =  >> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate = system
>>    proposal which
>>   =  >> > will
>>    >> > > be = presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give
>> =    everyone a
>>    >> > > = chance to read it over.
>>    >> > = >
>>    >> > > -Brian
>> =    >> >
>>    >> > = _______________________________________________
>>   =  >> > clue mailing list
>>    >> = > clue@ietf.org <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
>>   =  >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>&= gt;    >> = _______________________________________________
>>   =  >> clue mailing list
>>    >> clue@ietf.org <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
>>   =  >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>&= gt;    >
>>    >
>>   =  > _______________________________________________
>> =    > clue mailing list
>>    > clue@ietf.org <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
>>   =  > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>&= gt;    >
>>   =  >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> = _______________________________________________
>> clue mailing = list
>> clue@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
><= br>> _______________________________________________
> clue = mailing list
> clue@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
><= br>_______________________________________________
clue mailing = list
clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
_____= __________________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue

 

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CCA372.A43A86C0-- From stephen.botzko@gmail.com Mon Nov 14 16:52:13 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC6F31F0C52 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:52:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.39 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.39 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.208, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IFsDGgM54lMa for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:52:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vx0-f172.google.com (mail-vx0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B60A821F8532 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:52:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by vcbfk1 with SMTP id fk1so6677746vcb.31 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:52:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=nCkOIByBFl2+SxqbwLhHyfQC4wh6+lX1Mj29PrNxiTY=; b=rcCAbZBOLZr0OB4Re+2FqfEmtxdYCQIPHOMZYhcGW6pLSfCIdYgmZq8gjH8FwNGTGK tAT5pNxtsRR3ePLGHconMcWsgGIDvAp/xfGkktHrFC686mXoHYkZ8eZy3YgXUAnBC2FV xb6netQnBFT6DY9EMG7Am/j/AUbbyMhgg+Ox8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.35.70 with SMTP id f6mr38694221vdj.84.1321318328447; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:52:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.183.33 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:52:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A6102FA0A2639@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:52:08 +0800 Message-ID: From: Stephen Botzko To: Paul Coverdale Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307d000a9a323f04b1bb658e Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 00:52:14 -0000 --20cf307d000a9a323f04b1bb658e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would rather not mix cartesian and polar coordinates. For multiple cameras, using degrees only works if you use the camera location as the origin of the polar coordinate system for that camera. Having multiple origins in the coordinate system seems needlessly complex. Steve B. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:43 AM, Paul Coverdale wro= te: > For the camera direction, wouldn=92t it be more logical to define it in > azimuth-elevation (in degrees)? **** > > ** ** > > =85Paul**** > > ** ** > > *From:* clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf > Of *Stephen Botzko > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:38 AM > *To:* Duckworth, Mark > > *Cc:* clue@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal**** > > ** ** > > I agree that x,y,z is best. > > Two points for rectangles only works if the point of capture is also > signaled (otherwise you can not determine the plane). Since signaling > point of capture is optional, I prefer to send all four points. (it also > somewhat simplifies the computation needed in the receiver). > > Stephen Botzko > > **** > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:49 AM, Duckworth, Mark < > Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com> wrote:**** > > > I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down.**** > > That's fine with me too. > > As for using 2 points or 4 points or some other way of describing the > area, it does get a bit tricky if you want to be really exact about it. > Using only two points would mean we have to make some other limitations > about the orientation of the rectangular area (and confine it to a > rectangle). I thought we probably don't want to impose those limitations= . > I was thinking we use 4 points in the same plane to define a > quadrilateral. I think it would work out fine if implementers used these= 4 > points to define rectangles perpendicular to the floor even if it isn't > exactly correct for the angle of the camera. But I'm open to other ideas= . > > Mark**** > > > -----Original Message----- > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Marshall Eubanks > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 7:05 AM > To: Christian Groves > Cc: clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Christian Groves < > Christian.Groves@nteczone.com> wrote: > > I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. > > I prefer too as well. I think it matches general use. I made my proposal > purely in case some people felt strongly that we need to do something > non-standard. > > Do long as its > > used consistently I think its more intuitive than coming up with yet > > another naming convention. > > > > Agree > > Marshall > > > Christian > > > > On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote: > >> > >> I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt detectable > >> (delta z values) > >> > >> No problem with using alternate variable names that are more intuitive= . > >> > >> Mike > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks > >> > wrote= : > >> > >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer >> > wrote: > >> > Comment from the peanut gallery: > >> > 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of > >> reference. > >> > 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and > >> lower right > >> > (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view > >> > Mike > >> > >> Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of view > >> isn't rectangular, or > >> it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points). > >> > >> Regards > >> Marshall > >> > >> * A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for > >> left-right, > >> back-front, up-down, > >> or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for > >> > >> A - along screen > >> D - depth into audience > >> V - vertical > >> > >> If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will be > >> confused by z not being vertical, etc. > >> > >> > > >> > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) > >> > > >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. > >> >> > >> >> This material is potentially for the framework document, not a > >> separate > >> >> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle > >> spatial > >> >> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already > >> descried > >> >> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the > >> framework > >> >> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thought= s? > >> >> > >> >> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we > >> thought it > >> >> would be a good idea to make the material available to people > >> for them > >> >> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are > >> going to > >> >> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. > >> >> > >> >> Thanks, > >> >> Allyn > >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org > >> [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org ] On > >> Behalf > >> >> Of > >> >> > Paul Kyzivat > >> >> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM > >> >> > To: clue@ietf.org > >> >> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal > >> >> > > >> >> > Brian, > >> >> > > >> >> > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the > >> >> blackout? > >> >> > > >> >> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides > >> for the > >> >> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides= . > >> >> > > >> >> > Thanks, > >> >> > Paul > >> >> > > >> >> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: > >> >> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system > >> proposal which > >> >> > will > >> >> > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give > >> everyone a > >> >> > > chance to read it over. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > -Brian > >> >> > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > clue mailing list > >> >> > clue@ietf.org > >> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> clue mailing list > >> >> clue@ietf.org > >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > clue mailing list > >> > clue@ietf.org > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> clue mailing list > >> clue@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > > > _______________________________________________ > > clue mailing list > > clue@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue**** > > ** ** > --20cf307d000a9a323f04b1bb658e Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would rather not mix cartesian and polar coordinates.=A0

For mult= iple cameras, using degrees only works if you use the camera location as th= e origin of the polar coordinate system for that camera.=A0 Having multiple= origins in the coordinate system seems needlessly complex.

Steve B.

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:43= AM, Paul Coverdale <coverdale@sympatico.ca> wrote:

For the camera direction= , wouldn=92t it be more logical to define it in azimuth-elevation (in=A0 de= grees)?

=A0

=85Paul

=A0

From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.= org] On Behalf Of Stephen Botzko
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:38 AM
To: Duckworth, Ma= rk


Cc: clue@ietf.org
Subject: = Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal

=A0

I agree that x,y,z is best. =A0

=A0Two points for rectangles= only works if the point of capture is also signaled (otherwise you can not= determine the plane).=A0 Since signaling point of capture is optional, I p= refer to send all four points. (it also somewhat simplifies the computation= needed in the receiver).

Stephen Botzko

On = Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:49 AM, Duckworth, Mark <Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com> w= rote:

> I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right= , back-front, up-down.

That&#= 39;s fine with me too.

As for using 2 points or 4 points or some oth= er way of describing the area, it does get a bit tricky if you want to be r= eally exact about it. =A0Using only two points would mean we have to make s= ome other limitations about the orientation of the rectangular area (and co= nfine it to a rectangle). =A0I thought we probably don't want to impose= those limitations. =A0I was thinking we use 4 points in the same plane to = define a quadrilateral. =A0I think it would work out fine if implementers u= sed these 4 points to define rectangles perpendicular to the floor even if = it isn't exactly correct for the angle of the camera. =A0But I'm op= en to other ideas.

Mark


-----Original Message-----
From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mai= lto:clue-bounces= @ietf.org] On Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 7:05 AM
To: Christian Groves
Cc: clue@ietf.org
Subjec= t: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 a= t 5:31 PM, Christian Groves <Christian.Groves@nteczone.com> wrote:
> I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down.
I prefer too as well. I think it matches general use. I made my proposal = purely in case some people felt strongly that we need to do something non-s= tandard.

=A0Do long as its
> used consistently I think its more intuitive = than coming up with yet
> another naming convention.
>

A= gree

Marshall

> Christian
>
> On 15/11/2011 7:= 27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote:
>>
>> I was still assuming the z component was used, thus ti= lt detectable
>> (delta z values)
>>
>> No probl= em with using alternate variable names that are more intuitive.
>>=
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1= :56 PM, Marshall Eubanks
>> <marshall.eubanks@gmail.com <mailto:marshall.euban= ks@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> =A0 =A0On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hamme= r <mphmmr@gmail.co= m
>> =A0 =A0<mailto:mphmmr@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> =A0 =A0> Comment from the peanut gallery:
>> =A0 =A0&g= t; 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of
>&= gt; =A0 =A0reference.
>> =A0 =A0> 2. If a rectangular system is= always used, the upper left and
>> =A0 =A0lower right
>> =A0 =A0> (or vice versa) points = would be sufficient to define the view
>> =A0 =A0> Mike
>= >
>> =A0 =A0Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either th= e field of view
>> =A0 =A0isn't rectangular, or
>> =A0 =A0it has a tilt = (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points).
>>
>> = =A0 =A0Regards
>> =A0 =A0Marshall
>>
>> =A0 =A0*= A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for
>> left-right,
>> =A0 =A0back-front, up-down,
>> = =A0 =A0or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for
>= ;>
>> =A0 =A0A - along screen
>> =A0 =A0D - depth into= audience
>> =A0 =A0V - vertical
>>
>> =A0 =A0If we use a completely different nomenclature, = then no one will be
>> =A0 =A0confused by z not being vertical, et= c.
>>
>> =A0 =A0>
>> =A0 =A0> On Sun, Nov = 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn)
>> =A0 =A0<al= lyn@cisco.com <mailto:allyn@cisco.com>>
>> =A0 =A0> wrote:
>&g= t; =A0 =A0>>
>> =A0 =A0>> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer.>> =A0 =A0>>
>> =A0 =A0>> This material is pote= ntially for the framework document, not a
>> =A0 =A0separate
&g= t;> =A0 =A0>> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for h= ow to handle
>> =A0 =A0spatial
>> =A0 =A0>> relations. It fleshes o= ut the point and area that are already
>> =A0 =A0descried
>&= gt; =A0 =A0>> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put i= nto the
>> =A0 =A0framework
>> =A0 =A0>> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you= other thoughts?
>> =A0 =A0>>
>> =A0 =A0>> Th= e slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we
>> =A0= =A0thought it
>> =A0 =A0>> would be a good idea to make the material availabl= e to people
>> =A0 =A0for them
>> =A0 =A0>> to thin= k about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are
>> =A0 = =A0going to
>> =A0 =A0>> be presented during the framework discussion in CL= UE.
>> =A0 =A0>>
>> =A0 =A0>> Thanks,
>= > =A0 =A0>> Allyn
>> =A0 =A0>>
>> =A0 =A0&= gt;> > -----Original Message-----
>> =A0 =A0>> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org>
&= gt;> =A0 =A0[mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org>] On
>> =A0 =A0Behalf
>> =A0 =A0>> Of
>> =A0 =A0&g= t;> > Paul Kyzivat
>> =A0 =A0>> > Sent: Friday, Nov= ember 11, 2011 11:46 AM
>> =A0 =A0>> > To: clue@ietf.org <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
>> =A0 =A0>> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system pr= oposal
>> =A0 =A0>> >
>> =A0 =A0>> > Br= ian,
>> =A0 =A0>> >
>> =A0 =A0>> > Do y= ou intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the
>> =A0 =A0>> blackout?
>> =A0 =A0>> >
>= > =A0 =A0>> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framew= ork slides
>> =A0 =A0for the
>> =A0 =A0>> > meet= ing. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides.
>> =A0 =A0>> >
>> =A0 =A0>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 = Thanks,
>> =A0 =A0>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 Paul
>> =A0 = =A0>> >
>> =A0 =A0>> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Bri= an Baldino (bbaldino) wrote:
>> =A0 =A0>> > > Attached is the doc describing the coord= inate system
>> =A0 =A0proposal which
>> =A0 =A0>> = > will
>> =A0 =A0>> > > be presented next week; wan= ted to send it out now to give
>> =A0 =A0everyone a
>> =A0 =A0>> > > chance to = read it over.
>> =A0 =A0>> > >
>> =A0 =A0>= > > > -Brian
>> =A0 =A0>> >
>> =A0 =A0&= gt;> > _______________________________________________
>> =A0 =A0>> > clue mailing list
>> =A0 =A0>>= > clue@ietf.org = <mailto:clue@ietf.org= >
>> =A0 =A0>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue<= br>>> =A0 =A0>> _______________________________________________=
>> =A0 =A0>> clue mailing list
>> =A0 =A0>> clue@ietf.org <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
>> =A0 =A0>> https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/clue
>> =A0 =A0>
>> =A0 =A0>
>> =A0 =A0> ______= _________________________________________
>> =A0 =A0> clue mail= ing list
>> =A0 =A0> clue@ietf.org <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
>> =A0 =A0> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>&g= t; =A0 =A0>
>> =A0 =A0>
>>
>>
>><= br>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> clue m= ailing list
>> = clue@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue<= br> >
> _______________________________________________
> clue m= ailing list
> clue= @ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>
_______________________________________________
clue mailing lis= t
clue@ietf.org= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
_______________________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
https://= www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue

=A0

<= /div>

--20cf307d000a9a323f04b1bb658e-- From mphmmr@gmail.com Mon Nov 14 17:07:06 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D6E411E80A6 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:07:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.765 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.765 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.833, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_HTML_USL_OBFU=1.666] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 55QwnKlrIV0q for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wy0-f172.google.com (mail-wy0-f172.google.com [74.125.82.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E15FA11E8089 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:07:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by wyf28 with SMTP id 28so5341450wyf.31 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:07:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=ovUUC3GP/dUcfeS7/qz6FjJvt5emw5Z73WxpThYLCsA=; b=f3NGa05XheeHBVZ9X6VUqAJEMICIDoabQXOKykC+e8drfq9pa8IM6jEIDtuqcDkqhn h4KcF1zXTdVx6ctuvv4owfgj5v7pgkT8MuPxOBmle5hfnVAQp8/mW8vxWSkK1g8GpVbz lwp+Rb7bblujwdp55rWJ/PXv3mYgZnwPCsZJk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.229.159 with SMTP id h31mr3072149weq.34.1321319224052; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:07:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.80.99 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:07:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 20:07:03 -0500 Message-ID: From: Michael Hammer To: Christian Groves Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636831880fc0c6104b1bb9a36 Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:07:06 -0000 --001636831880fc0c6104b1bb9a36 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 You would still need to explain somewhere how x, y, and z map to: H-orizontal V-ertical D-epth Mike On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Christian Groves < Christian.Groves@nteczone.com> wrote: > I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. Do long as > its used consistently I think its more intuitive than coming up with yet > another naming convention. > > Christian > > On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote: > >> I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt detectable >> (delta z values) >> >> No problem with using alternate variable names that are more intuitive. >> >> Mike >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks < >> marshall.eubanks@gmail.com >> >> wrote: >> >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer > > wrote: >> > Comment from the peanut gallery: >> > 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of >> reference. >> > 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and >> lower right >> > (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view >> > Mike >> >> Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of view >> isn't rectangular, or >> it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points). >> >> Regards >> Marshall >> >> * A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for left-right, >> back-front, up-down, >> or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for >> >> A - along screen >> D - depth into audience >> V - vertical >> >> If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will be >> confused by z not being vertical, etc. >> >> > >> > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) >> > >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. >> >> >> >> This material is potentially for the framework document, not a >> separate >> >> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle >> spatial >> >> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already >> descried >> >> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the >> framework >> >> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thoughts? >> >> >> >> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we >> thought it >> >> would be a good idea to make the material available to people >> for them >> >> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are >> going to >> >> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Allyn >> >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org >> [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org **] On >> Behalf >> >> Of >> >> > Paul Kyzivat >> >> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM >> >> > To: clue@ietf.org >> >> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal >> >> > >> >> > Brian, >> >> > >> >> > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the >> >> blackout? >> >> > >> >> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides >> for the >> >> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides. >> >> > >> >> > Thanks, >> >> > Paul >> >> > >> >> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: >> >> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system >> proposal which >> >> > will >> >> > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give >> everyone a >> >> > > chance to read it over. >> >> > > >> >> > > -Brian >> >> > >> >> > ______________________________**_________________ >> >> > clue mailing list >> >> > clue@ietf.org >> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/clue >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> >> clue mailing list >> >> clue@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/clue >> > >> > >> > ______________________________**_________________ >> > clue mailing list >> > clue@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/clue >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/clue >> > ______________________________**_________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/clue > --001636831880fc0c6104b1bb9a36 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You would still need to explain somewhere how x, y, and z map to:

<= /div>
H-orizontal
V-ertical
D-epth

Mike

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 5:3= 1 PM, Christian Groves <Christian.Groves@nteczone.com> wrote:
I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right,= back-front, up-down. Do long as its used consistently I think its more int= uitive than coming up with yet another naming convention.

Christian

On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote:
I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt detectable (delta = z values)

No problem with using alternate variable names that are more intuitive.

Mike


On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks <marshall.eubanks@gmail.com &= lt;mailto:m= arshall.eubanks@gmail.com>> wrote:

=A0 =A0On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer <mphmmr@gmail.com
=A0 =A0<mailto:mp= hmmr@gmail.com>> wrote:
=A0 =A0> Comment from the peanut gallery:
=A0 =A0> 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame o= f
=A0 =A0reference.
=A0 =A0> 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and<= br> =A0 =A0lower right
=A0 =A0> (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view<= br> =A0 =A0> Mike

=A0 =A0Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of view<= br> =A0 =A0isn't rectangular, or
=A0 =A0it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points).

=A0 =A0Regards
=A0 =A0Marshall

=A0 =A0* A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for left-right,=
=A0 =A0back-front, up-down,
=A0 =A0or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for

=A0 =A0A - along screen
=A0 =A0D - depth into audience
=A0 =A0V - vertical

=A0 =A0If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will be<= br> =A0 =A0confused by z not being vertical, etc.

=A0 =A0>
=A0 =A0> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn)
=A0 =A0<allyn@cisc= o.com <mailto:a= llyn@cisco.com>>
=A0 =A0> wrote:
=A0 =A0>>
=A0 =A0>> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer.
=A0 =A0>>
=A0 =A0>> This material is potentially for the framework document, n= ot a
=A0 =A0separate
=A0 =A0>> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to = handle
=A0 =A0spatial
=A0 =A0>> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are alre= ady
=A0 =A0descried
=A0 =A0>> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into= the
=A0 =A0framework
=A0 =A0>> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other t= houghts?
=A0 =A0>>
=A0 =A0>> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned,= we
=A0 =A0thought it
=A0 =A0>> would be a good idea to make the material available to peo= ple
=A0 =A0for them
=A0 =A0>> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides tha= t are
=A0 =A0going to
=A0 =A0>> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE.
=A0 =A0>>
=A0 =A0>> Thanks,
=A0 =A0>> Allyn
=A0 =A0>>
=A0 =A0>> > -----Original Message-----
=A0 =A0>> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org>
=A0 =A0[mailto:= clue-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org>] On
=A0 =A0Behalf
=A0 =A0>> Of
=A0 =A0>> > Paul Kyzivat
=A0 =A0>> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM
=A0 =A0>> > To: clue@ietf.org <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
=A0 =A0>> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal =A0 =A0>> >
=A0 =A0>> > Brian,
=A0 =A0>> >
=A0 =A0>> > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get = past the
=A0 =A0>> blackout?
=A0 =A0>> >
=A0 =A0>> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework = slides
=A0 =A0for the
=A0 =A0>> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on t= he slides.
=A0 =A0>> >
=A0 =A0>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 Thanks,
=A0 =A0>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 Paul
=A0 =A0>> >
=A0 =A0>> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote:=
=A0 =A0>> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate sy= stem
=A0 =A0proposal which
=A0 =A0>> > will
=A0 =A0>> > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out no= w to give
=A0 =A0everyone a
=A0 =A0>> > > chance to read it over.
=A0 =A0>> > >
=A0 =A0>> > > -Brian
=A0 =A0>> >
=A0 =A0>> > ______________________________________________= _
=A0 =A0>> > clue mailing list
=A0 =A0>> > cl= ue@ietf.org <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
=A0 =A0>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue =A0 =A0>> _______________________________________________
=A0 =A0>> clue mailing list
=A0 =A0>> clue@ie= tf.org <mailto:cl= ue@ietf.org>
=A0 =A0>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
=A0 =A0>
=A0 =A0>
=A0 =A0> _______________________________________________
=A0 =A0> clue mailing list
=A0 =A0> clue@ietf.o= rg <mailto:clue@i= etf.org>
=A0 =A0> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
=A0 =A0>
=A0 =A0>




_______________________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
_______________________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue

--001636831880fc0c6104b1bb9a36-- From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Mon Nov 14 17:12:46 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 969191F0C3F for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:12:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mfyZ26XRSUxF for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93BBB1F0C8B for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.19]) by qmta10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id xD7L1h0060QuhwU5ADClpe; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:12:45 +0000 Received: from dhcp-16f3.meeting.ietf.org ([130.129.22.243]) by omta02.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id xDCb1h02U5EhBnE3NDCerM; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:12:43 +0000 Message-ID: <4EC1BC84.5040904@alum.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 20:12:36 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clue@ietf.org References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> In-Reply-To: <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:12:46 -0000 On 11/14/11 5:31 PM, Christian Groves wrote: > I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. Do long as > its used consistently I think its more intuitive than coming up with yet > another naming convention. I have now seen two mappings of xyz to real world in the docs: x:left-right, y:back-front, z:up-down x:left-right, y:up-down, z:back-front Can people agree which it is? When using 4 points to define the plane-of-interest, there is the potential that the four points are not coplanar. Of course from a normative perspective we can just say "don't do that", but implementers will need to do something if it happens. Thanks, Paul > Christian > > On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote: >> I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt detectable >> (delta z values) >> >> No problem with using alternate variable names that are more intuitive. >> >> Mike >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks >> > wrote: >> >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer > > wrote: >> > Comment from the peanut gallery: >> > 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of >> reference. >> > 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and >> lower right >> > (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view >> > Mike >> >> Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of view >> isn't rectangular, or >> it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points). >> >> Regards >> Marshall >> >> * A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for left-right, >> back-front, up-down, >> or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for >> >> A - along screen >> D - depth into audience >> V - vertical >> >> If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will be >> confused by z not being vertical, etc. >> >> > >> > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) >> > >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. >> >> >> >> This material is potentially for the framework document, not a >> separate >> >> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle >> spatial >> >> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already >> descried >> >> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the >> framework >> >> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thoughts? >> >> >> >> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we >> thought it >> >> would be a good idea to make the material available to people >> for them >> >> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are >> going to >> >> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Allyn >> >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org >> [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org ] On >> Behalf >> >> Of >> >> > Paul Kyzivat >> >> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM >> >> > To: clue@ietf.org >> >> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal >> >> > >> >> > Brian, >> >> > >> >> > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the >> >> blackout? >> >> > >> >> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides >> for the >> >> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides. >> >> > >> >> > Thanks, >> >> > Paul >> >> > >> >> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: >> >> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system >> proposal which >> >> > will >> >> > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give >> everyone a >> >> > > chance to read it over. >> >> > > >> >> > > -Brian >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > clue mailing list >> >> > clue@ietf.org >> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> clue mailing list >> >> clue@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > clue mailing list >> > clue@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > From stephen.botzko@gmail.com Mon Nov 14 17:16:25 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920A211E819A for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:16:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.648, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_HTML_USL_OBFU=1.666] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OXS69VpDdyJ3 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:16:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vw0-f44.google.com (mail-vw0-f44.google.com [209.85.212.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6390911E81E2 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:16:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws5 with SMTP id 5so6811380vws.31 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:16:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Ss2jSnHgGpGhupGJikXxTrTRKm6UmgF1mPtQ4/5ZpQY=; b=HGabqS6PjM25TKgypPLz80Dw6bKN6LfqCh4ZgrJ1jMexfC8OBBsZCVc1SUgpRtziKr gIz2DG7Lu6tbqn6ndSHVA1DmS0SNwQf02BRZCZSv37/0EBm3T79DDUNcN7BJHXoPUk0Z hsMRAYwdRNa1Id0xiuOUB/8Qy7pwW1hSSYh1M= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.99.37 with SMTP id en5mr38762497vdb.101.1321319783855; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:16:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.183.33 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:16:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:16:23 +0800 Message-ID: From: Stephen Botzko To: Michael Hammer Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307f310659f6c004b1bbbc83 Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:16:25 -0000 --20cf307f310659f6c004b1bbbc83 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The framework draft already does that in section 5.3.4. Stephen Botzko On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Michael Hammer wrote: > You would still need to explain somewhere how x, y, and z map to: > > H-orizontal > V-ertical > D-epth > > Mike > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Christian Groves < > Christian.Groves@nteczone.com> wrote: > >> I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. Do long as >> its used consistently I think its more intuitive than coming up with yet >> another naming convention. >> >> Christian >> >> On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote: >> >>> I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt detectable >>> (delta z values) >>> >>> No problem with using alternate variable names that are more intuitive. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks < >>> marshall.eubanks@gmail.com >> >>> wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer >> > wrote: >>> > Comment from the peanut gallery: >>> > 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of >>> reference. >>> > 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and >>> lower right >>> > (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view >>> > Mike >>> >>> Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of view >>> isn't rectangular, or >>> it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points). >>> >>> Regards >>> Marshall >>> >>> * A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for left-right, >>> back-front, up-down, >>> or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for >>> >>> A - along screen >>> D - depth into audience >>> V - vertical >>> >>> If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will be >>> confused by z not being vertical, etc. >>> >>> > >>> > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) >>> > >>> > wrote: >>> >> >>> >> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. >>> >> >>> >> This material is potentially for the framework document, not a >>> separate >>> >> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle >>> spatial >>> >> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already >>> descried >>> >> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the >>> framework >>> >> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thoughts? >>> >> >>> >> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we >>> thought it >>> >> would be a good idea to make the material available to people >>> for them >>> >> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are >>> going to >>> >> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. >>> >> >>> >> Thanks, >>> >> Allyn >>> >> >>> >> > -----Original Message----- >>> >> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org >>> [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org **] On >>> Behalf >>> >> Of >>> >> > Paul Kyzivat >>> >> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM >>> >> > To: clue@ietf.org >>> >> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal >>> >> > >>> >> > Brian, >>> >> > >>> >> > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the >>> >> blackout? >>> >> > >>> >> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides >>> for the >>> >> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides. >>> >> > >>> >> > Thanks, >>> >> > Paul >>> >> > >>> >> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: >>> >> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system >>> proposal which >>> >> > will >>> >> > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give >>> everyone a >>> >> > > chance to read it over. >>> >> > > >>> >> > > -Brian >>> >> > >>> >> > ______________________________**_________________ >>> >> > clue mailing list >>> >> > clue@ietf.org >>> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/clue >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >> clue mailing list >>> >> clue@ietf.org >>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/clue >>> > >>> > >>> > ______________________________**_________________ >>> > clue mailing list >>> > clue@ietf.org >>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/clue >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> clue mailing list >>> clue@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/clue >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/clue >> > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > --20cf307f310659f6c004b1bbbc83 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The framework draft already does that in section 5.3.4.

Stephen Botz= ko

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Micha= el Hammer <mphmmr@= gmail.com> wrote:
You would still need to explain somewhere h= ow x, y, and z map to:

H-orizontal
V-ertical
D-epth

Mike

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Christian Groves <Christian.Groves@nteczone.com> wrote:
I= 9;d prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. Do long as its= used consistently I think its more intuitive than coming up with yet anoth= er naming convention.

Christian

On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote:
I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt detectable (delta = z values)

No problem with using alternate variable names that are more intuitive.

Mike


On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks <marshall.eubanks@gmail.com &= lt;mailto:m= arshall.eubanks@gmail.com>> wrote:

=A0 =A0On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer <mphmmr@gmail.com
=A0 =A0<mailto:mp= hmmr@gmail.com>> wrote:
=A0 =A0> Comment from the peanut gallery:
=A0 =A0> 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame o= f
=A0 =A0reference.
=A0 =A0> 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and<= br> =A0 =A0lower right
=A0 =A0> (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view<= br> =A0 =A0> Mike

=A0 =A0Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of view<= br> =A0 =A0isn't rectangular, or
=A0 =A0it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points).

=A0 =A0Regards
=A0 =A0Marshall

=A0 =A0* A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for left-right,=
=A0 =A0back-front, up-down,
=A0 =A0or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for

=A0 =A0A - along screen
=A0 =A0D - depth into audience
=A0 =A0V - vertical

=A0 =A0If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will be<= br> =A0 =A0confused by z not being vertical, etc.

=A0 =A0>
=A0 =A0> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn)
=A0 =A0<allyn@cisc= o.com <mailto:a= llyn@cisco.com>>
=A0 =A0> wrote:
=A0 =A0>>
=A0 =A0>> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer.
=A0 =A0>>
=A0 =A0>> This material is potentially for the framework document, n= ot a
=A0 =A0separate
=A0 =A0>> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to = handle
=A0 =A0spatial
=A0 =A0>> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are alre= ady
=A0 =A0descried
=A0 =A0>> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into= the
=A0 =A0framework
=A0 =A0>> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other t= houghts?
=A0 =A0>>
=A0 =A0>> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned,= we
=A0 =A0thought it
=A0 =A0>> would be a good idea to make the material available to peo= ple
=A0 =A0for them
=A0 =A0>> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides tha= t are
=A0 =A0going to
=A0 =A0>> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE.
=A0 =A0>>
=A0 =A0>> Thanks,
=A0 =A0>> Allyn
=A0 =A0>>
=A0 =A0>> > -----Original Message-----
=A0 =A0>> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org>
=A0 =A0[mailto:= clue-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org>] On
=A0 =A0Behalf
=A0 =A0>> Of
=A0 =A0>> > Paul Kyzivat
=A0 =A0>> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM
=A0 =A0>> > To: clue@ietf.org <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
=A0 =A0>> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal =A0 =A0>> >
=A0 =A0>> > Brian,
=A0 =A0>> >
=A0 =A0>> > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get = past the
=A0 =A0>> blackout?
=A0 =A0>> >
=A0 =A0>> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework = slides
=A0 =A0for the
=A0 =A0>> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on t= he slides.
=A0 =A0>> >
=A0 =A0>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 Thanks,
=A0 =A0>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 Paul
=A0 =A0>> >
=A0 =A0>> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote:=
=A0 =A0>> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate sy= stem
=A0 =A0proposal which
=A0 =A0>> > will
=A0 =A0>> > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out no= w to give
=A0 =A0everyone a
=A0 =A0>> > > chance to read it over.
=A0 =A0>> > >
=A0 =A0>> > > -Brian
=A0 =A0>> >
=A0 =A0>> > ______________________________________________= _
=A0 =A0>> > clue mailing list
=A0 =A0>> > cl= ue@ietf.org <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
=A0 =A0>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue =A0 =A0>> _______________________________________________
=A0 =A0>> clue mailing list
=A0 =A0>> clue@ie= tf.org <mailto:cl= ue@ietf.org>
=A0 =A0>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
=A0 =A0>
=A0 =A0>
=A0 =A0> _______________________________________________
=A0 =A0> clue mailing list
=A0 =A0> clue@ietf.o= rg <mailto:clue@i= etf.org>
=A0 =A0> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
=A0 =A0>
=A0 =A0>




_______________________________________________
clue mailing list
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ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
_______________________________________________
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clue@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue


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--20cf307f310659f6c004b1bbbc83-- From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com Mon Nov 14 17:20:55 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5781A1F0C7D; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:20:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.185 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.185 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.414, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MJqd5MEcQLQy; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:20:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vx0-f172.google.com (mail-vx0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 783A31F0CF3; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:20:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by vcbfk1 with SMTP id fk1so6705290vcb.31 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:20:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=qRvBGN5kqlmF6k6QuHoAqU9iKXqriymZ1vgAiY/BjBc=; b=UPn20g287WTvv9/ciyEwXA+69VL5excJT8Y0yZZvvGWU5+VNTiLogpF8zxgvlxp63s cHQq08FSR/15PXOuEa6SaEsLNG7x0bpPoXSqJ0qmlvawYgMDEaBLu8r06P95P6HiLsUo ww4a454Yt1nmqQ6ArEw8iS0QwFqNDvnTcU6Do= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.20.207 with SMTP id p15mr38607286vde.87.1321320053996; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:20:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.175.131 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:20:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 19:20:53 -0600 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: CLUE , rtcweb@ietf.org, avt@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [clue] CLUE/RTCWEB adhoc - RTP requirements/usages for multi-stream - Thurs. lunchtime in 3F Banquet X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:20:55 -0000 The room has been assigned - 3F Banquet. Also, please note that the agenda has been updated to be a bit broader than the previous version. Regards, Mary. On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:39 AM, Mary Barnes w= rote: > Hello CLUE, RTCWEB and AVTCORE WG members, > > Per the discussion in the CLUE WG session this morning, an adhoc is > planned on Thursday, 11:40-12:50 (room 3F Banquet) to discuss requirement= s > and usages of RTP for multi-stream for CLUE and RTCWEB. =A0 Note, this > also relates to the discussion today in AVTCORE around multiplexing. > > A proposed agenda has been appended to the CLUE WG agenda for IETF-82: > http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/agenda/clue.html > > Note since the meeting is during lunch, the secretariat is arranging > for us to have one of the rooms that allows food, although please > consider the note about outside food: > http://www.ietf.org/meeting/82/things-to-note.html > > I will post a note with the room to the mailing list (and update the > agenda) as soon as I have the information. > > Regards, > Mary and Ted > (as chairs for the adhoc) > From stephen.botzko@gmail.com Mon Nov 14 17:24:42 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B56EE1F0D28 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:24:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.348 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.348 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8njRhR2po3FO for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:24:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vx0-f172.google.com (mail-vx0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 857BA1F0CF6 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:24:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by vcbfk1 with SMTP id fk1so6708449vcb.31 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:24:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Yum+/TVAOcTa14qBoktqueZvOkUZ2NOdJz8RWIqJVvU=; b=V14WeQQLeNzkC05LCrpiR2lPsZC8v2lFRmQ2xtwdlYiM/8bK3oA4Vh3QkXXGJ3uHRz 8/1eTdr+ec1Tl4As9ilEgb7pHpkDJRZpG3eExnF0/Y6qxqkhGgPBPvtzHhYYJ92TD551 m3aqzFmqQAOyonpK9zALRWi1iclHUzceQ3JNw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.35.70 with SMTP id f6mr38845041vdj.84.1321320275061; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:24:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.183.33 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:24:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4EC1BC84.5040904@alum.mit.edu> References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> <4EC1BC84.5040904@alum.mit.edu> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:24:35 +0800 Message-ID: From: Stephen Botzko To: Paul Kyzivat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307d000aa12bc304b1bbd974 Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:24:43 -0000 --20cf307d000aa12bc304b1bbd974 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 (a) 5.3.4 in the framework states >>> However, it is specified that as numbers move from lower to higher, the location is going from: camera-left to camera-right (in the case of the 'x' dimension), front to back (in the case of the 'y' dimension or low to high (in the case of the 'z' dimension). >>> This would be x:left-right, y:back-front, z:up-down >>> When using 4 points to define the plane-of-interest, there is the potential that the four points are not coplanar. Of course from a normative perspective we can just say "don't do that", but implementers will need to do something if it happens. >>> I agree we should normatively say "don't do that". Since we have no normative text on how receivers use any of this data for rendering, perhaps we do not need to say what implementers need to do in the non-coplanar case Stephen Botzko On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:12 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > On 11/14/11 5:31 PM, Christian Groves wrote: > >> I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. Do long as >> its used consistently I think its more intuitive than coming up with yet >> another naming convention. >> > > I have now seen two mappings of xyz to real world in the docs: > x:left-right, y:back-front, z:up-down > x:left-right, y:up-down, z:back-front > > Can people agree which it is? > > When using 4 points to define the plane-of-interest, there is the > potential that the four points are not coplanar. > Of course from a normative perspective we can just say "don't do that", > but implementers will need to do something if it happens. > > Thanks, > Paul > > > Christian >> >> On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote: >> >>> I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt detectable >>> (delta z values) >>> >>> No problem with using alternate variable names that are more intuitive. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks >>> > wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer < mphmmr@gmail.com >>> > wrote: >>> > Comment from the peanut gallery: >>> > 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of >>> reference. >>> > 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and >>> lower right >>> > (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view >>> > Mike >>> >>> Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of view >>> isn't rectangular, or >>> it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points). >>> >>> Regards >>> Marshall >>> >>> * A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for left-right, >>> back-front, up-down, >>> or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for >>> >>> A - along screen >>> D - depth into audience >>> V - vertical >>> >>> If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will be >>> confused by z not being vertical, etc. >>> >>> > >>> > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) >>> > >>> > wrote: >>> >> >>> >> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. >>> >> >>> >> This material is potentially for the framework document, not a >>> separate >>> >> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle >>> spatial >>> >> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already >>> descried >>> >> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the >>> framework >>> >> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thoughts? >>> >> >>> >> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we >>> thought it >>> >> would be a good idea to make the material available to people >>> for them >>> >> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are >>> going to >>> >> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. >>> >> >>> >> Thanks, >>> >> Allyn >>> >> >>> >> > -----Original Message----- >>> >> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org >>> [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org ] On >>> Behalf >>> >> Of >>> >> > Paul Kyzivat >>> >> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM >>> >> > To: clue@ietf.org >>> >> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal >>> >> > >>> >> > Brian, >>> >> > >>> >> > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the >>> >> blackout? >>> >> > >>> >> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides >>> for the >>> >> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides. >>> >> > >>> >> > Thanks, >>> >> > Paul >>> >> > >>> >> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: >>> >> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system >>> proposal which >>> >> > will >>> >> > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give >>> everyone a >>> >> > > chance to read it over. >>> >> > > >>> >> > > -Brian >>> >> > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > clue mailing list >>> >> > clue@ietf.org >>> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> clue mailing list >>> >> clue@ietf.org >>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > clue mailing list >>> > clue@ietf.org >>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> clue mailing list >>> clue@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> >> > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > --20cf307d000aa12bc304b1bbd974 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (= a) 5.3.4 in the framework states 
>>>

However, it is specified that as numbers
   move from lower to higher, the location is going from: camera-left to
   camera-right (in the case of the 'x' dimension), front to back (=
in
   the case of the 'y' dimension or low to high (in the case of the=
 'z'
   dimension).

>>>

This would be x:left-right, y:back-front, z:up-=
down

>>>
When using 4 points to define the plane-of-interest, there is the potential=
 that the four points are not coplanar.

Of course from a normative perspective we can just say "don't do t=
hat", but implementers will need to do something if it happens.
>=
;>>

I agree we should normatively say "don't do that&=
quot;.  


Since we have no normative text on how receivers use any of this data f=
or rendering, perhaps we do not need to say what implementers need to do in=
 the non-coplanar case
Stephen Botzko

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:12 AM, Paul Kyzivat <= pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
On 11/14/11 5:31 PM, Christian Groves wrote:
I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. Do long as=
its used consistently I think its more intuitive than coming up with yet another naming convention.

I have now seen two mappings of xyz to real world in the docs:
x:left-right, y:back-front, z:up-down
x:left-right, y:up-down, z:back-front

Can people agree which it is?

When using 4 points to define the plane-of-interest, there is the potential= that the four points are not coplanar.
Of course from a normative perspective we can just say "don't do t= hat", but implementers will need to do something if it happens.
 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Thanks,
 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Paul


=
Christian

On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote:
I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt detectable
(delta z values)

No problem with using alternate variable names that are more intuitive.

Mike


On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks
<marshal= l.eubanks@gmail.com <mailto:marshall.eubanks@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer < mphm= mr@gmail.com
<mailto:mphmmr@gma= il.com>> wrote:
> Comment from the peanut gallery:
> 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of
reference.
> 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and
lower right
> (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view
> Mike

Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of view
isn't rectangular, or
it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points).

Regards
Marshall

* A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for left-right,
back-front, up-down,
or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for

A - along screen
D - depth into audience
V - vertical

If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will be
confused by z not being vertical, etc.

>
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn)
<allyn@cisco.com <mailto:allyn@cis= co.com>>
> wrote:
>>
>> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer.
>>
>> This material is potentially for the framework document, not a
separate
>> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle spatial
>> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already
descried
>> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the
framework
>> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thoughts?=
>>
>> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we
thought it
>> would be a good idea to make the material available to people
for them
>> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are going to
>> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Allyn
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org>
[mailto:clue-bou= nces@ietf.org <mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org>] On
Behalf
>> Of
>> > Paul Kyzivat
>> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM
>> > To: clue@i= etf.org <mailto:c= lue@ietf.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal
>> >
>> > Brian,
>> >
>> > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the=
>> blackout?
>> >
>> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides for the
>> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slide= s.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Paul
>> >
>> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote:
>> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system
proposal which
>> > will
>> > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to giv= e
everyone a
>> > > chance to read it over.
>> > >
>> > > -Brian
>> >
>> > _____________________________________= __________
>> > clue mailing list
>> > clue@ietf.= org <mailto:clue@= ietf.org>
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>> __________________________________________= _____
>> clue mailing list
>> clue@ietf.org <mailto:clue@ietf.= org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>
>
> ______________________________________________= _
> clue mailing list
> clue@ietf.org &= lt;mailto:clue@ietf.org<= /a>>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>
>




______________________________ _________________
clue mailing list
clu= e@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
_______________________________________________
clue mailing list
clu= e@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue


_______________________________________________
clue mailing list
clu= e@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue

--20cf307d000aa12bc304b1bbd974-- From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Mon Nov 14 17:32:38 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92C9C11E80D2 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:32:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.113, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vkt3BvkqaApA for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ey0-f172.google.com (mail-ey0-f172.google.com [209.85.215.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BA7211E80CA for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by eyg24 with SMTP id 24so5982240eyg.31 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:32:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9uOu0q2ipgsx7JrDx0tFUjwsDrGgYQ0ffu80QYH0aZs=; b=wmp7T3X1fVwU0w/OYzFvAFYs2eTjFq9EMj8+pE607L+JnNHgQfcGb0w6WHAglFA+On SIedmBZR4ylDo2GwW6NYbZM6WzSQ+Zy1toHdheZagNDvR0B61u9FSNTa5ZcHp4G3Yf5c HdQD4BHmx7K0Ys1nMItOK0Nqiei7WQ3P2IA0A= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.7.66 with SMTP id h2mr5647511oba.14.1321320755952; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:32:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.159.73 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:32:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> <4EC1BC84.5040904@alum.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 20:32:35 -0500 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: Stephen Botzko Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:32:38 -0000 On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 8:24 PM, Stephen Botzko wrote: > (a) 5.3.4 in the framework states > >>>> > > However, it is specified that as numbers > move from lower to higher, the location is going from: camera-left to > camera-right (in the case of the 'x' dimension), front to back (in > the case of the 'y' dimension or low to high (in the case of the 'z' > dimension). > >>>> > > This would be x:left-right, y:back-front, z:up-down > And this is what I would support. Marshall >>>> > When using 4 points to define the plane-of-interest, there is the potenti= al > that the four points are not coplanar. > > Of course from a normative perspective we can just say "don't do that", b= ut > implementers will need to do something if it happens. >>>> > > I agree we should normatively say "don't do that". > > > Since we have no normative text on how receivers use any of this data for > rendering, perhaps we do not need to say what implementers need to do in = the > non-coplanar case > > Stephen Botzko > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:12 AM, Paul Kyzivat wro= te: >> >> On 11/14/11 5:31 PM, Christian Groves wrote: >>> >>> I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. Do long as >>> its used consistently I think its more intuitive than coming up with ye= t >>> another naming convention. >> >> I have now seen two mappings of xyz to real world in the docs: >> x:left-right, y:back-front, z:up-down >> x:left-right, y:up-down, z:back-front >> >> Can people agree which it is? >> >> When using 4 points to define the plane-of-interest, there is the >> potential that the four points are not coplanar. >> Of course from a normative perspective we can just say "don't do that", >> but implementers will need to do something if it happens. >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Thanks, >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Paul >> >>> Christian >>> >>> On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote: >>>> >>>> I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt detectable >>>> (delta z values) >>>> >>>> No problem with using alternate variable names that are more intuitive= . >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks >>>> > wrote= : >>>> >>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer < mphmmr@gmail.com >>>> > wrote: >>>> > Comment from the peanut gallery: >>>> > 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of >>>> reference. >>>> > 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and >>>> lower right >>>> > (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view >>>> > Mike >>>> >>>> Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of view >>>> isn't rectangular, or >>>> it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points). >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Marshall >>>> >>>> * A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for left-right, >>>> back-front, up-down, >>>> or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for >>>> >>>> A - along screen >>>> D - depth into audience >>>> V - vertical >>>> >>>> If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will be >>>> confused by z not being vertical, etc. >>>> >>>> > >>>> > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) >>>> > >>>> > wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. >>>> >> >>>> >> This material is potentially for the framework document, not a >>>> separate >>>> >> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle >>>> spatial >>>> >> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already >>>> descried >>>> >> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the >>>> framework >>>> >> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thoughts? >>>> >> >>>> >> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we >>>> thought it >>>> >> would be a good idea to make the material available to people >>>> for them >>>> >> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are >>>> going to >>>> >> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. >>>> >> >>>> >> Thanks, >>>> >> Allyn >>>> >> >>>> >> > -----Original Message----- >>>> >> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org >>>> [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org ] On >>>> Behalf >>>> >> Of >>>> >> > Paul Kyzivat >>>> >> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM >>>> >> > To: clue@ietf.org >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Brian, >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the >>>> >> blackout? >>>> >> > >>>> >> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides >>>> for the >>>> >> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Thanks, >>>> >> > Paul >>>> >> > >>>> >> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: >>>> >> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system >>>> proposal which >>>> >> > will >>>> >> > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give >>>> everyone a >>>> >> > > chance to read it over. >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > -Brian >>>> >> > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >> > clue mailing list >>>> >> > clue@ietf.org >>>> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> clue mailing list >>>> >> clue@ietf.org >>>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > clue mailing list >>>> > clue@ietf.org >>>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>> clue mailing list >>>> clue@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> clue mailing list >>> clue@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > From br@brianrosen.net Mon Nov 14 17:40:03 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BEA011E8271 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:40:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.458 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.458 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.142, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mlwrRY0M3Cda for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:40:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from barmail4.idig.net (barmail4.idig.net [64.34.111.235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9876B11E826A for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:40:02 -0800 (PST) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1321321201-011a9f1ab0486d30001-dOUo1C Received: from wwh1.winweblinux.com (wwh1.winweblinux.com [76.74.186.184]) by barmail4.idig.net with ESMTP id rVKQiLeYOoCgQL6b; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:40:01 -0800 (PST) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: br@brianrosen.net X-Barracuda-Apparent-Source-IP: 76.74.186.184 Received: from neustargw.va.neustar.com ([209.173.53.233] helo=smas-lt500.cis.neustar.com) by wwh1.winweblinux.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQ80H-003m7e-Au; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:40:01 -0800 X-Barracuda-BBL-IP: 209.173.53.233 X-Barracuda-RBL-IP: 209.173.53.233 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Brian Rosen In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 20:39:53 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4BD31A04-35E4-4FB8-B0B0-258F51F2D43D@brianrosen.net> References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> <4EC1BC84.5040904@alum.mit.edu> To: Marshall Eubanks X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-Barracuda-Connect: wwh1.winweblinux.com[76.74.186.184] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1321321201 X-Barracuda-URL: http://64.34.111.235:8000/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 1.80 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=1.80 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=3.5 tests=BSF_SC7_SA440_FBF X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.2.80281 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 1.80 BSF_SC7_SA440_FBF Custom Rule SA440_FBF Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:40:03 -0000 Huh. While I see why you might like that, and of course we can make it work, = it does seem much more natural to treat X/Y the way the capture and = presentation devices do, and treat Z as back/front. Brian On Nov 14, 2011, at 8:32 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 8:24 PM, Stephen Botzko > wrote: >> (a) 5.3.4 in the framework states >>=20 >>>>>=20 >>=20 >> However, it is specified that as numbers >> move from lower to higher, the location is going from: camera-left = to >> camera-right (in the case of the 'x' dimension), front to back (in >> the case of the 'y' dimension or low to high (in the case of the = 'z' >> dimension). >>=20 >>>>>=20 >>=20 >> This would be x:left-right, y:back-front, z:up-down >>=20 >=20 > And this is what I would support. >=20 > Marshall >=20 >>>>>=20 >> When using 4 points to define the plane-of-interest, there is the = potential >> that the four points are not coplanar. >>=20 >> Of course from a normative perspective we can just say "don't do = that", but >> implementers will need to do something if it happens. >>>>>=20 >>=20 >> I agree we should normatively say "don't do that". >>=20 >>=20 >> Since we have no normative text on how receivers use any of this data = for >> rendering, perhaps we do not need to say what implementers need to do = in the >> non-coplanar case >>=20 >> Stephen Botzko >>=20 >> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:12 AM, Paul Kyzivat = wrote: >>>=20 >>> On 11/14/11 5:31 PM, Christian Groves wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. Do = long as >>>> its used consistently I think its more intuitive than coming up = with yet >>>> another naming convention. >>>=20 >>> I have now seen two mappings of xyz to real world in the docs: >>> x:left-right, y:back-front, z:up-down >>> x:left-right, y:up-down, z:back-front >>>=20 >>> Can people agree which it is? >>>=20 >>> When using 4 points to define the plane-of-interest, there is the >>> potential that the four points are not coplanar. >>> Of course from a normative perspective we can just say "don't do = that", >>> but implementers will need to do something if it happens. >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>> Paul >>>=20 >>>> Christian >>>>=20 >>>> On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt = detectable >>>>> (delta z values) >>>>>=20 >>>>> No problem with using alternate variable names that are more = intuitive. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Mike >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks >>>>> > = wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer < = mphmmr@gmail.com >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> Comment from the peanut gallery: >>>>>> 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of >>>>> reference. >>>>>> 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and >>>>> lower right >>>>>> (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view >>>>>> Mike >>>>>=20 >>>>> Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of view >>>>> isn't rectangular, or >>>>> it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points). >>>>>=20 >>>>> Regards >>>>> Marshall >>>>>=20 >>>>> * A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for = left-right, >>>>> back-front, up-down, >>>>> or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for >>>>>=20 >>>>> A - along screen >>>>> D - depth into audience >>>>> V - vertical >>>>>=20 >>>>> If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will be >>>>> confused by z not being vertical, etc. >>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) >>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> This material is potentially for the framework document, not a >>>>> separate >>>>>>> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle >>>>> spatial >>>>>>> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already >>>>> descried >>>>>>> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the >>>>> framework >>>>>>> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other = thoughts? >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we >>>>> thought it >>>>>>> would be a good idea to make the material available to people >>>>> for them >>>>>>> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are >>>>> going to >>>>>>> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Allyn >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: clue-bounces@ietf.org >>>>> [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org ] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of >>>>>>>> Paul Kyzivat >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM >>>>>>>> To: clue@ietf.org >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Brian, >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the >>>>>>> blackout? >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides >>>>> for the >>>>>>>> meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: >>>>>>>>> Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system >>>>> proposal which >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>> be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give >>>>> everyone a >>>>>>>>> chance to read it over. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> -Brian >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> clue mailing list >>>>>>>> clue@ietf.org >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> clue mailing list >>>>>>> clue@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> clue mailing list >>>>>> clue@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>>> clue mailing list >>>>> clue@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> clue mailing list >>>> clue@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> clue mailing list >>> clue@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>=20 >>=20 > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From stephen.botzko@gmail.com Mon Nov 14 17:47:34 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D21C11E8106 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:47:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.371 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.371 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.227, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ydeJ5Xesbmaf for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:47:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vx0-f172.google.com (mail-vx0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF72E11E80CC for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:47:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by vcbfk1 with SMTP id fk1so6728746vcb.31 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:47:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=MrxLzejeZVt9luD2qa2lYuJLpoqIfT9p5L8c7xZnzdI=; b=kc4NDS7kj2m1E7QaJWJSSXaFgovzvXfUq3+8NLgRY7yzZRwpTDQ16LCD+fnuugYnRS /OAJ0IXfrT6zcImYRtsCNTVy+G7WFgjk80vUgrr9qgRw+2V26rI6+RXWVG6Lqa37Zn8W KK65qtPq7fN97vZErXvVZUM2d8KCV+usIWj/I= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.32.163 with SMTP id k3mr39158294vdi.33.1321321650236; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:47:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.183.33 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:47:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4BD31A04-35E4-4FB8-B0B0-258F51F2D43D@brianrosen.net> References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> <4EC1BC84.5040904@alum.mit.edu> <4BD31A04-35E4-4FB8-B0B0-258F51F2D43D@brianrosen.net> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:47:30 +0800 Message-ID: From: Stephen Botzko To: Brian Rosen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51d276698ad3f04b1bc2b1b Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:47:34 -0000 --bcaec51d276698ad3f04b1bc2b1b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 We could argue that tradeoff forever. Z as vertical is the "classic" cartesian system ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_coordinate_system#Cartesian_coordinates_in_three_dimensions), which I think is a significant advantage. Though if this is the only point of controversy, then we have made significant progress. Stephen Botzko On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:39 AM, Brian Rosen wrote: > Huh. > > While I see why you might like that, and of course we can make it work, it > does seem much more natural to treat X/Y the way the capture and > presentation devices do, and treat Z as back/front. > > Brian > > On Nov 14, 2011, at 8:32 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 8:24 PM, Stephen Botzko > > wrote: > >> (a) 5.3.4 in the framework states > >> > >>>>> > >> > >> However, it is specified that as numbers > >> move from lower to higher, the location is going from: camera-left to > >> camera-right (in the case of the 'x' dimension), front to back (in > >> the case of the 'y' dimension or low to high (in the case of the 'z' > >> dimension). > >> > >>>>> > >> > >> This would be x:left-right, y:back-front, z:up-down > >> > > > > And this is what I would support. > > > > Marshall > > > >>>>> > >> When using 4 points to define the plane-of-interest, there is the > potential > >> that the four points are not coplanar. > >> > >> Of course from a normative perspective we can just say "don't do that", > but > >> implementers will need to do something if it happens. > >>>>> > >> > >> I agree we should normatively say "don't do that". > >> > >> > >> Since we have no normative text on how receivers use any of this data > for > >> rendering, perhaps we do not need to say what implementers need to do > in the > >> non-coplanar case > >> > >> Stephen Botzko > >> > >> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:12 AM, Paul Kyzivat > wrote: > >>> > >>> On 11/14/11 5:31 PM, Christian Groves wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. Do long > as > >>>> its used consistently I think its more intuitive than coming up with > yet > >>>> another naming convention. > >>> > >>> I have now seen two mappings of xyz to real world in the docs: > >>> x:left-right, y:back-front, z:up-down > >>> x:left-right, y:up-down, z:back-front > >>> > >>> Can people agree which it is? > >>> > >>> When using 4 points to define the plane-of-interest, there is the > >>> potential that the four points are not coplanar. > >>> Of course from a normative perspective we can just say "don't do that", > >>> but implementers will need to do something if it happens. > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Paul > >>> > >>>> Christian > >>>> > >>>> On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt detectable > >>>>> (delta z values) > >>>>> > >>>>> No problem with using alternate variable names that are more > intuitive. > >>>>> > >>>>> Mike > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks > >>>>> > > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer < mphmmr@gmail.com > >>>>> > wrote: > >>>>>> Comment from the peanut gallery: > >>>>>> 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of > >>>>> reference. > >>>>>> 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and > >>>>> lower right > >>>>>> (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view > >>>>>> Mike > >>>>> > >>>>> Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of view > >>>>> isn't rectangular, or > >>>>> it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points). > >>>>> > >>>>> Regards > >>>>> Marshall > >>>>> > >>>>> * A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for left-right, > >>>>> back-front, up-down, > >>>>> or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for > >>>>> > >>>>> A - along screen > >>>>> D - depth into audience > >>>>> V - vertical > >>>>> > >>>>> If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will be > >>>>> confused by z not being vertical, etc. > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) > >>>>> > > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> This material is potentially for the framework document, not a > >>>>> separate > >>>>>>> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle > >>>>> spatial > >>>>>>> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already > >>>>> descried > >>>>>>> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the > >>>>> framework > >>>>>>> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thoughts? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we > >>>>> thought it > >>>>>>> would be a good idea to make the material available to people > >>>>> for them > >>>>>>> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are > >>>>> going to > >>>>>>> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks, > >>>>>>> Allyn > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>> From: clue-bounces@ietf.org > >>>>> [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org ] On > >>>>> Behalf > >>>>>>> Of > >>>>>>>> Paul Kyzivat > >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM > >>>>>>>> To: clue@ietf.org > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Brian, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the > >>>>>>> blackout? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides > >>>>> for the > >>>>>>>> meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks, > >>>>>>>> Paul > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: > >>>>>>>>> Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system > >>>>> proposal which > >>>>>>>> will > >>>>>>>>> be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give > >>>>> everyone a > >>>>>>>>> chance to read it over. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -Brian > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> clue mailing list > >>>>>>>> clue@ietf.org > >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> clue mailing list > >>>>>>> clue@ietf.org > >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> clue mailing list > >>>>>> clue@ietf.org > >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ______________________________ _________________ > >>>>> clue mailing list > >>>>> clue@ietf.org > >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> clue mailing list > >>>> clue@ietf.org > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> clue mailing list > >>> clue@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> clue mailing list > >> clue@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > clue mailing list > > clue@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > --bcaec51d276698ad3f04b1bc2b1b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We could argue that tradeoff forever.

=A0Z as vertical is the "= ;classic" cartesian system (http:/= /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_coordinate_system#Cartesian_coordinates_in= _three_dimensions), which I think is a significant advantage.=A0 Though= if this is the only point of controversy, then we have made significant pr= ogress.

Stephen Botzko

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 a= t 9:39 AM, Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net> wrote:
Huh.

While I see why you might like that, and of course we can make it work, it = does seem much more natural to treat X/Y the way the capture and presentati= on devices do, and treat Z as back/front.

Brian

On Nov 14, 2011, at 8:32 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 8:24 PM, Stephen Botzko
> <stephen.botzko@gmail.c= om> wrote:
>> (a) 5.3.4 in the framework states
>>
>>>>>
>>
>> However, it is specified that as numbers
>> =A0 move from lower to higher, the location is going from: camera-= left to
>> =A0 camera-right (in the case of the 'x' dimension), front= to back (in
>> =A0 the case of the 'y' dimension or low to high (in the c= ase of the 'z'
>> =A0 dimension).
>>
>>>>>
>>
>> This would be x:left-right, y:back-front, z:up-down
>>
>
> And this is what I would support.
>
> Marshall
>
>>>>>
>> When using 4 points to define the plane-of-interest, there is the = potential
>> that the four points are not coplanar.
>>
>> Of course from a normative perspective we can just say "don&#= 39;t do that", but
>> implementers will need to do something if it happens.
>>>>>
>>
>> I agree we should normatively say "don't do that". >>
>>
>> Since we have no normative text on how receivers use any of this d= ata for
>> rendering, perhaps we do not need to say what implementers need to= do in the
>> non-coplanar case
>>
>> Stephen Botzko
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:12 AM, Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 11/14/11 5:31 PM, Christian Groves wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up= -down. Do long as
>>>> its used consistently I think its more intuitive than comi= ng up with yet
>>>> another naming convention.
>>>
>>> I have now seen two mappings of xyz to real world in the docs:=
>>> x:left-right, y:back-front, z:up-down
>>> x:left-right, y:up-down, z:back-front
>>>
>>> Can people agree which it is?
>>>
>>> When using 4 points to define the plane-of-interest, there is = the
>>> potential that the four points are not coplanar.
>>> Of course from a normative perspective we can just say "d= on't do that",
>>> but implementers will need to do something if it happens.
>>>
>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Thanks,
>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Paul
>>>
>>>> Christian
>>>>
>>>> On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I was still assuming the z component was used, thus ti= lt detectable
>>>>> (delta z values)
>>>>>
>>>>> No problem with using alternate variable names that ar= e more intuitive.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks
>>>>> <mars= hall.eubanks@gmail.com <mailto:marshall.eubanks@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer < = mphmmr@gmail.com
>>>>> <mailto:mphmmr@= gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> Comment from the peanut gallery:
>>>>>> 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining= the frame of
>>>>> reference.
>>>>>> 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upp= er left and
>>>>> lower right
>>>>>> (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to defi= ne the view
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the f= ield of view
>>>>> isn't rectangular, or
>>>>> it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those = points).
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Marshall
>>>>>
>>>>> * A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z fo= r left-right,
>>>>> back-front, up-down,
>>>>> or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D,= V (for
>>>>>
>>>>> A - along screen
>>>>> D - depth into audience
>>>>> V - vertical
>>>>>
>>>>> If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no= one will be
>>>>> confused by z not being vertical, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (al= lyn)
>>>>> <allyn@cisco.com= <mailto:allyn@cisco.com>&= gt;
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer= .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This material is potentially for the framework= document, not a
>>>>> separate
>>>>>>> draft. It represents the authors' proposal= for how to handle
>>>>> spatial
>>>>>>> relations. It fleshes out the point and area t= hat are already
>>>>> descried
>>>>>>> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will = get put into the
>>>>> framework
>>>>>>> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had= you other thoughts?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The slides and this note are the same. As Bria= n mentioned, we
>>>>> thought it
>>>>>>> would be a good idea to make the material avai= lable to people
>>>>> for them
>>>>>>> to think about prior to hearing about it in th= e slides that are
>>>>> going to
>>>>>>> be presented during the framework discussion i= n CLUE.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Allyn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: clue-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org>
>>>>> [mailto:clue-= bounces@ietf.org <mailto:cl= ue-bounces@ietf.org>] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>> Of
>>>>>>>> Paul Kyzivat
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM >>>>>>>> To: clue@= ietf.org <mailto:clue@ietf.org&= gt;
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system= proposal
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Brian,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you intend to publish this as a draft o= nce we get past the
>>>>>>> blackout?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This seems to be largely replicated in the= framework slides
>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>> meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss= based on the slides.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbald= ino) wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Attached is the doc describing the coo= rdinate system
>>>>> proposal which
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> be presented next week; wanted to send= it out now to give
>>>>> everyone a
>>>>>>>>> chance to read it over.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -Brian
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________= _____
>>>>>>>> clue mailing list
>>>>>>>> clue@ietf= .org <mailto:clue@ietf.org><= br> >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>>>>>>> ______________________________________________= _
>>>>>>> clue mailing list
>>>>>>> clue@ietf.org= <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> clue mailing list
>>>>>> clue@ietf.org= <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________ _________________
>>>>> clue mailing list
>>>>> clue@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> clue mailing list
>>>> clue@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> clue mailing list
>>> clue@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> clue mailing list
>> clue@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> clue mailing list
> clue@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue


--bcaec51d276698ad3f04b1bc2b1b-- From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Mon Nov 14 17:50:14 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8E3911E8153 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:50:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.488 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.488 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.111, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fb-wK5naCzXo for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:50:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ey0-f172.google.com (mail-ey0-f172.google.com [209.85.215.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25A7511E8139 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:50:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by eyg24 with SMTP id 24so5992665eyg.31 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:50:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZSB91rHt8QCo8UoG7+2whyM291zlVVxlmUjCbTPUu58=; b=VkUBCHSNON7OVigTdbhn2YncGAS77PlyWokOW6AHaMGpfhKsNTXRzU8lKpMydtbxRK 1mwdwfl6nHkNTPqIUw4YeuKt5XvEKMKR8zim0Qetm1FD+sGxLZRj0FnuJwIm1YbD8OuQ Z0X+Oy/J/su95Sqlj6Z9XaigGZ+wb+ia0u0Q8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.124.33 with SMTP id mf1mr2064966obb.24.1321321809924; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:50:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.159.73 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:50:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4BD31A04-35E4-4FB8-B0B0-258F51F2D43D@brianrosen.net> References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> <4EC1BC84.5040904@alum.mit.edu> <4BD31A04-35E4-4FB8-B0B0-258F51F2D43D@brianrosen.net> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 20:50:09 -0500 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: Brian Rosen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:50:14 -0000 On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Brian Rosen wrote: > Huh. > > While I see why you might like that, and of course we can make it work, i= t does seem much more natural to treat X/Y the way the capture and presenta= tion devices do, and treat Z as back/front. > Which is why I suggested ADV. Z is classically vertical. If there is another community for which is not, then (IMHO) we should use ADV. Marshall > Brian > > On Nov 14, 2011, at 8:32 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 8:24 PM, Stephen Botzko >> wrote: >>> (a) 5.3.4 in the framework states >>> >>>>>> >>> >>> However, it is specified that as numbers >>> =A0 move from lower to higher, the location is going from: camera-left = to >>> =A0 camera-right (in the case of the 'x' dimension), front to back (in >>> =A0 the case of the 'y' dimension or low to high (in the case of the 'z= ' >>> =A0 dimension). >>> >>>>>> >>> >>> This would be x:left-right, y:back-front, z:up-down >>> >> >> And this is what I would support. >> >> Marshall >> >>>>>> >>> When using 4 points to define the plane-of-interest, there is the poten= tial >>> that the four points are not coplanar. >>> >>> Of course from a normative perspective we can just say "don't do that",= but >>> implementers will need to do something if it happens. >>>>>> >>> >>> I agree we should normatively say "don't do that". >>> >>> >>> Since we have no normative text on how receivers use any of this data f= or >>> rendering, perhaps we do not need to say what implementers need to do i= n the >>> non-coplanar case >>> >>> Stephen Botzko >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:12 AM, Paul Kyzivat w= rote: >>>> >>>> On 11/14/11 5:31 PM, Christian Groves wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. Do long = as >>>>> its used consistently I think its more intuitive than coming up with = yet >>>>> another naming convention. >>>> >>>> I have now seen two mappings of xyz to real world in the docs: >>>> x:left-right, y:back-front, z:up-down >>>> x:left-right, y:up-down, z:back-front >>>> >>>> Can people agree which it is? >>>> >>>> When using 4 points to define the plane-of-interest, there is the >>>> potential that the four points are not coplanar. >>>> Of course from a normative perspective we can just say "don't do that"= , >>>> but implementers will need to do something if it happens. >>>> >>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Thanks, >>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Paul >>>> >>>>> Christian >>>>> >>>>> On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt detectable >>>>>> (delta z values) >>>>>> >>>>>> No problem with using alternate variable names that are more intuiti= ve. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks >>>>>> > wro= te: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer < mphmmr@gmail.com >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> Comment from the peanut gallery: >>>>>>> 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of >>>>>> reference. >>>>>>> 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and >>>>>> lower right >>>>>>> (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of view >>>>>> isn't rectangular, or >>>>>> it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points). >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> Marshall >>>>>> >>>>>> * A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for left-right, >>>>>> back-front, up-down, >>>>>> or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for >>>>>> >>>>>> A - along screen >>>>>> D - depth into audience >>>>>> V - vertical >>>>>> >>>>>> If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will be >>>>>> confused by z not being vertical, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) >>>>>> > >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This material is potentially for the framework document, not a >>>>>> separate >>>>>>>> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle >>>>>> spatial >>>>>>>> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already >>>>>> descried >>>>>>>> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the >>>>>> framework >>>>>>>> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thoughts? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we >>>>>> thought it >>>>>>>> would be a good idea to make the material available to people >>>>>> for them >>>>>>>> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are >>>>>> going to >>>>>>>> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> Allyn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: clue-bounces@ietf.org >>>>>> [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org ] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>> Of >>>>>>>>> Paul Kyzivat >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM >>>>>>>>> To: clue@ietf.org >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Brian, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the >>>>>>>> blackout? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides >>>>>> for the >>>>>>>>> meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system >>>>>> proposal which >>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>> be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give >>>>>> everyone a >>>>>>>>>> chance to read it over. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -Brian >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> clue mailing list >>>>>>>>> clue@ietf.org >>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> clue mailing list >>>>>>>> clue@ietf.org >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> clue mailing list >>>>>>> clue@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>>>> clue mailing list >>>>>> clue@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> clue mailing list >>>>> clue@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> clue mailing list >>>> clue@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> clue mailing list >>> clue@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > From coverdale@sympatico.ca Mon Nov 14 17:51:12 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85E7711E8139 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:51:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.795 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.795 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2gPI2arpHXZ0 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:51:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from blu0-omc1-s30.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc1-s30.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4FA611E81F6 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:51:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLU0-SMTP17 ([65.55.116.7]) by blu0-omc1-s30.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:51:08 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [130.129.39.34] X-Originating-Email: [coverdale@sympatico.ca] Message-ID: Received: from PaulNewPC ([130.129.39.34]) by BLU0-SMTP17.phx.gbl over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:51:06 -0800 From: Paul Coverdale To: "'Stephen Botzko'" References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A6102FA0A2639@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:50:59 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002A_01CCA37C.17ECF860" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcyjMM/7BLrNUdPaRZGMEdeBufR1ZwABt7JQ Content-Language: en-us X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Nov 2011 01:51:07.0061 (UTC) FILETIME=[0A720650:01CCA339] Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:51:12 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01CCA37C.17ECF860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My thinking for using polar coordinates for the camera is that, from a practical point of view, how do we figure out the Cartesian coordinates for the 4 points that define the area of capture? .Paul From: Stephen Botzko [mailto:stephen.botzko@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:52 AM To: Paul Coverdale Cc: Duckworth, Mark; clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal I would rather not mix cartesian and polar coordinates. For multiple cameras, using degrees only works if you use the camera location as the origin of the polar coordinate system for that camera. Having multiple origins in the coordinate system seems needlessly complex. Steve B. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:43 AM, Paul Coverdale wrote: For the camera direction, wouldn't it be more logical to define it in azimuth-elevation (in degrees)? .Paul From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Botzko Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:38 AM To: Duckworth, Mark Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal I agree that x,y,z is best. Two points for rectangles only works if the point of capture is also signaled (otherwise you can not determine the plane). Since signaling point of capture is optional, I prefer to send all four points. (it also somewhat simplifies the computation needed in the receiver). Stephen Botzko On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:49 AM, Duckworth, Mark wrote: > I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. That's fine with me too. As for using 2 points or 4 points or some other way of describing the area, it does get a bit tricky if you want to be really exact about it. Using only two points would mean we have to make some other limitations about the orientation of the rectangular area (and confine it to a rectangle). I thought we probably don't want to impose those limitations. I was thinking we use 4 points in the same plane to define a quadrilateral. I think it would work out fine if implementers used these 4 points to define rectangles perpendicular to the floor even if it isn't exactly correct for the angle of the camera. But I'm open to other ideas. Mark -----Original Message----- From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 7:05 AM To: Christian Groves Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Christian Groves wrote: > I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. I prefer too as well. I think it matches general use. I made my proposal purely in case some people felt strongly that we need to do something non-standard. Do long as its > used consistently I think its more intuitive than coming up with yet > another naming convention. > Agree Marshall > Christian > > On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote: >> >> I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt detectable >> (delta z values) >> >> No problem with using alternate variable names that are more intuitive. >> >> Mike >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks >> > wrote: >> >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer > > wrote: >> > Comment from the peanut gallery: >> > 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of >> reference. >> > 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and >> lower right >> > (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view >> > Mike >> >> Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of view >> isn't rectangular, or >> it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points). >> >> Regards >> Marshall >> >> * A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for >> left-right, >> back-front, up-down, >> or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for >> >> A - along screen >> D - depth into audience >> V - vertical >> >> If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will be >> confused by z not being vertical, etc. >> >> > >> > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) >> > >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. >> >> >> >> This material is potentially for the framework document, not a >> separate >> >> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle >> spatial >> >> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already >> descried >> >> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the >> framework >> >> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thoughts? >> >> >> >> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we >> thought it >> >> would be a good idea to make the material available to people >> for them >> >> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are >> going to >> >> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Allyn >> >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org >> [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org ] On >> Behalf >> >> Of >> >> > Paul Kyzivat >> >> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM >> >> > To: clue@ietf.org >> >> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal >> >> > >> >> > Brian, >> >> > >> >> > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the >> >> blackout? >> >> > >> >> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides >> for the >> >> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides. >> >> > >> >> > Thanks, >> >> > Paul >> >> > >> >> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: >> >> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system >> proposal which >> >> > will >> >> > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give >> everyone a >> >> > > chance to read it over. >> >> > > >> >> > > -Brian >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > clue mailing list >> >> > clue@ietf.org >> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> clue mailing list >> >> clue@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > clue mailing list >> > clue@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01CCA37C.17ECF860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My thinking for using polar coordinates for the camera is that, from = a practical point of view, how do we figure out the Cartesian = coordinates for the 4 points that define the area of capture? =

 

…Paul

 

From:= = Stephen Botzko [mailto:stephen.botzko@gmail.com]
Sent: = Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:52 AM
To: Paul = Coverdale
Cc: Duckworth, Mark; = clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system = proposal

 

I would rather not mix cartesian and = polar coordinates. 

For multiple cameras, using degrees = only works if you use the camera location as the origin of the polar = coordinate system for that camera.  Having multiple origins in the = coordinate system seems needlessly complex.

Steve = B.

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:43 = AM, Paul Coverdale <coverdale@sympatico.ca> = wrote:

For the camera direction, = wouldn’t it be more logical to define it in azimuth-elevation = (in  degrees)?

 

…Paul

 

From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephen = Botzko
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:38 AM
To: = Duckworth, Mark


Cc: clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE = Coordinate system = proposal

 <= /o:p>

I agree that = x,y,z is best.  

 Two points for rectangles only works = if the point of capture is also signaled (otherwise you can not = determine the plane).  Since signaling point of capture is = optional, I prefer to send all four points. (it also somewhat simplifies = the computation needed in the receiver).

Stephen = Botzko

On Tue, Nov = 15, 2011 at 7:49 AM, Duckworth, Mark <Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com> = wrote:

> I'd = prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, = up-down.

That's fine = with me too.

As for using 2 points or 4 points or some other way = of describing the area, it does get a bit tricky if you want to be = really exact about it.  Using only two points would mean we have to = make some other limitations about the orientation of the rectangular = area (and confine it to a rectangle).  I thought we probably don't = want to impose those limitations.  I was thinking we use 4 points = in the same plane to define a quadrilateral.  I think it would work = out fine if implementers used these 4 points to define rectangles = perpendicular to the floor even if it isn't exactly correct for the = angle of the camera.  But I'm open to other ideas.

Mark


-----Ori= ginal Message-----
From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Marshall = Eubanks
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 7:05 AM
To: Christian = Groves
Cc: clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE = Coordinate system proposal

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 5:31 PM, = Christian Groves <Christian.Groves@nteczone.com> wrote:
> = I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down.

I = prefer too as well. I think it matches general use. I made my proposal = purely in case some people felt strongly that we need to do something = non-standard.

 Do long as its
> used consistently I = think its more intuitive than coming up with yet
> another naming = convention.
>

Agree

Marshall

> = Christian
>
> On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer = wrote:
>>
>> I was still assuming the z component was = used, thus tilt detectable
>> (delta z = values)
>>
>> No problem with using alternate variable = names that are more intuitive.
>>
>> = Mike
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 = PM, Marshall Eubanks
>> <marshall.eubanks@gmail.com <mailto:marshall.eubanks@gmail.com>> = wrote:
>>
>>    On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at = 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer <mphmmr@gmail.com
>>   =  <mailto:mphmmr@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>   =  > Comment from the peanut gallery:
>>   =  > 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame = of
>>    reference.
>>    > 2. = If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and
>> =    lower right
>>    > (or vice versa) = points would be sufficient to define the view
>>   =  > Mike
>>
>>    Note that if the = cameras are tilted, then either the field of view
>>   =  isn't rectangular, or
>>    it has a tilt = (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points).
>>
>> =    Regards
>>   =  Marshall
>>
>>    * A minor point, but = can we please use either x,y,z for
>> left-right,
>> =    back-front, up-down,
>>    or abandon = that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V = (for
>>
>>    A - along screen
>> =    D - depth into audience
>>    V - = vertical
>>
>>    If we use a completely = different nomenclature, then no one will be
>>   =  confused by z not being vertical, etc.
>>
>> =    >
>>    > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at = 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn)
>>    <allyn@cisco.com = <mailto:allyn@cisco.com>>
>>   =  > wrote:
>>    >>
>>   =  >> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer.
>> =    >>
>>    >> This material is = potentially for the framework document, not a
>>   =  separate
>>    >> draft. It represents = the authors' proposal for how to handle
>>   =  spatial
>>    >> relations. It fleshes = out the point and area that are already
>>   =  descried
>>    >> in the document. = Whatever the WG decides will get put into the
>>   =  framework
>>    >> document. Is that not = also how you see it? Had you other thoughts?
>>   =  >>
>>    >> The slides and this = note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we
>>   =  thought it
>>    >> would be a good idea = to make the material available to people
>>    for = them
>>    >> to think about prior to hearing = about it in the slides that are
>>    going = to
>>    >> be presented during the framework = discussion in CLUE.
>>    >>
>>   =  >> Thanks,
>>    >> = Allyn
>>    >>
>>   =  >> > -----Original Message-----
>>   =  >> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org>
>>   =  [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org>] On
>>   =  Behalf
>>    >> Of
>>   =  >> > Paul Kyzivat
>>    >> > = Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM
>>   =  >> > To: clue@ietf.org <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
>>   =  >> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system = proposal
>>    >> >
>>   =  >> > Brian,
>>    >> = >
>>    >> > Do you intend to publish = this as a draft once we get past the
>>    >> = blackout?
>>    >> >
>>   =  >> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework = slides
>>    for the
>>   =  >> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on = the slides.
>>    >> >
>>   =  >> >       Thanks,
>>   =  >> >       Paul
>>   =  >> >
>>    >> > On 11/11/11 = 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote:
>>   =  >> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate = system
>>    proposal which
>>   =  >> > will
>>    >> > > be = presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give
>> =    everyone a
>>    >> > > = chance to read it over.
>>    >> > = >
>>    >> > > -Brian
>> =    >> >
>>    >> > = _______________________________________________
>>   =  >> > clue mailing list
>>    >> = > clue@ietf.org <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
>>   =  >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>&= gt;    >> = _______________________________________________
>>   =  >> clue mailing list
>>    >> clue@ietf.org = <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
>>   =  >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>&= gt;    >
>>    >
>>   =  > _______________________________________________
>> =    > clue mailing list
>>    > clue@ietf.org = <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
>>    > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>&= gt;    >
>>   =  >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> = _______________________________________________
>> clue mailing = list
>> clue@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
><= br>> _______________________________________________
> clue = mailing list
> clue@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
><= br>_______________________________________________
clue mailing = list
clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
_____= __________________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue

 <= /o:p>

 

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01CCA37C.17ECF860-- From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Mon Nov 14 17:58:44 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8709E11E82C0; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:58:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.489 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.489 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.110, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id odNW2BugKB-9; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:58:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ey0-f172.google.com (mail-ey0-f172.google.com [209.85.215.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6924C11E816C; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:58:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by eyg24 with SMTP id 24so5998290eyg.31 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:58:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=45xS9ux2NqxeE5Gr3nH6Se1C3UMFtXJLtpfMllVHZbo=; b=xz6wB6smf3mdMuyu8ZkAV0ZqmWMs9hlPV1EJZcbcWjFspNSOVnVSpwPb4n9vbPQmRX niwv48wytSJAl7K2YGstHtRvQD98rPummUaa57SlPG+V0xzaGucwk4ui/Qn39Sq24VjS oiCOgFCCcYeNx3BttuNQfmAGzHKq+Vi3FuDX4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.150.4 with SMTP id ue4mr4232391obb.74.1321322321940; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:58:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.159.73 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:58:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 20:58:41 -0500 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: Mary Barnes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org, CLUE , avt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] [AVTCORE] CLUE/RTCWEB adhoc - RTP requirements/usages for multi-stream - Thurs. lunchtime in 3F Banquet X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:58:44 -0000 To be clear, food is _allowed_ but not provided ? Marshall On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 8:20 PM, Mary Barnes w= rote: > The room has been assigned - 3F Banquet. > > Also, please note that the agenda has been updated to be a bit broader > than the previous version. > > Regards, > Mary. > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:39 AM, Mary Barnes = wrote: >> Hello CLUE, RTCWEB and AVTCORE WG members, >> >> Per the discussion in the CLUE WG session this morning, an adhoc is >> planned on Thursday, 11:40-12:50 (room 3F Banquet) to discuss requiremen= ts >> and usages of RTP for multi-stream for CLUE and RTCWEB. =A0 Note, this >> also relates to the discussion today in AVTCORE around multiplexing. >> >> A proposed agenda has been appended to the CLUE WG agenda for IETF-82: >> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/agenda/clue.html >> >> Note since the meeting is during lunch, the secretariat is arranging >> for us to have one of the rooms that allows food, although please >> consider the note about outside food: >> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/82/things-to-note.html >> >> I will post a note with the room to the mailing list (and update the >> agenda) as soon as I have the information. >> >> Regards, >> Mary and Ted >> (as chairs for the adhoc) >> > _______________________________________________ > Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance > avt@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt > From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com Mon Nov 14 18:08:22 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11C8111E808B; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:08:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.196 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.196 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.403, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wuZhIO079xUp; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:08:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vw0-f44.google.com (mail-vw0-f44.google.com [209.85.212.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EC011F0D36; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:08:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws5 with SMTP id 5so6858909vws.31 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:08:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WdunM7KmK0ImYsrrwRSsi2txgtJcpsBWM/bf2JfxLAo=; b=B/I/T47/PwHwszWFSL5vC9TKpNnrSmFBKLPpiNyk4+RSt0GAinl1tDYBTnPp0949pD X3o7F4ZNceC8SpREdE9idzJ0j8pRaqcVgV0RuN3A5MINlSDEzX1ejGspvzZ3VlyIPfMr whxcyWE93JNQe+509X8lQLvoa1WQD24QjZ7N0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.20.207 with SMTP id p15mr38808145vde.87.1321322900810; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:08:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.175.131 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:08:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 20:08:20 -0600 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: Marshall Eubanks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org, CLUE , avt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] [AVTCORE] CLUE/RTCWEB adhoc - RTP requirements/usages for multi-stream - Thurs. lunchtime in 3F Banquet X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 02:08:22 -0000 Correct - folks should bring their own lunch and again as a reminder, please review the rules related to outside food: http://www.ietf.org/meeting/82/things-to-note.html Mary. On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 7:58 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > To be clear, food is _allowed_ but not provided ? > > Marshall > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 8:20 PM, Mary Barnes = wrote: >> The room has been assigned - 3F Banquet. >> >> Also, please note that the agenda has been updated to be a bit broader >> than the previous version. >> >> Regards, >> Mary. >> >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:39 AM, Mary Barnes wrote: >>> Hello CLUE, RTCWEB and AVTCORE WG members, >>> >>> Per the discussion in the CLUE WG session this morning, an adhoc is >>> planned on Thursday, 11:40-12:50 (room 3F Banquet) to discuss requireme= nts >>> and usages of RTP for multi-stream for CLUE and RTCWEB. =A0 Note, this >>> also relates to the discussion today in AVTCORE around multiplexing. >>> >>> A proposed agenda has been appended to the CLUE WG agenda for IETF-82: >>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/agenda/clue.html >>> >>> Note since the meeting is during lunch, the secretariat is arranging >>> for us to have one of the rooms that allows food, although please >>> consider the note about outside food: >>> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/82/things-to-note.html >>> >>> I will post a note with the room to the mailing list (and update the >>> agenda) as soon as I have the information. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Mary and Ted >>> (as chairs for the adhoc) >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance >> avt@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt >> > From stephen.botzko@gmail.com Mon Nov 14 18:40:05 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A73951F0D30 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:40:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.39 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.39 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.208, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1iqE-rzJU9iT for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:40:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vw0-f44.google.com (mail-vw0-f44.google.com [209.85.212.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD3AA1F0C69 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:40:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws5 with SMTP id 5so6887548vws.31 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:40:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=oOjQljenygcwUAEhhago7lGnH3wh4NkDGu6L3gLodgE=; b=BOKx0Ee5oSRATNSn3H1tTnxnDSjdq3464tk/l7chHaTnJF4D4PCImeYBWZ7dX4WJ06 EeUWJurdRxB14ptqU0EBC+O1GbF0WsqHjerIx7RYMw7LpWyhMrwW8qnFE8DYZVI/xbzf qOOVUK0dDiY81V/+EOevs6k/7R2yYROwyUuv0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.97.136 with SMTP id ea8mr33486842vdb.16.1321324803403; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:40:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.183.33 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:40:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A6102FA0A2639@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:40:03 +0800 Message-ID: From: Stephen Botzko To: Paul Coverdale Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307abca98a2e6704b1bce709 Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 02:40:05 -0000 --20cf307abca98a2e6704b1bce709 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I see no issue with figuring out the Cartesian coordinates on the sender side. I see lots of issues dealing with polar coordinates in receivers, in particular it is very hard to compute whether two captures are adjacent or not - which is the single most important piece of information. Stephen Botzko On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:50 AM, Paul Coverdale wro= te: > My thinking for using polar coordinates for the camera is that, from a > practical point of view, how do we figure out the Cartesian coordinates f= or > the 4 points that define the area of capture? **** > > ** ** > > =85Paul**** > > ** ** > > *From:* Stephen Botzko [mailto:stephen.botzko@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:52 AM > *To:* Paul Coverdale > *Cc:* Duckworth, Mark; clue@ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal**** > > ** ** > > I would rather not mix cartesian and polar coordinates. > > For multiple cameras, using degrees only works if you use the camera > location as the origin of the polar coordinate system for that camera. > Having multiple origins in the coordinate system seems needlessly complex= . > > Steve B.**** > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:43 AM, Paul Coverdale > wrote:**** > > For the camera direction, wouldn=92t it be more logical to define it in > azimuth-elevation (in degrees)? **** > > **** > > =85Paul**** > > **** > > *From:* clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf > Of *Stephen Botzko > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:38 AM > *To:* Duckworth, Mark**** > > > *Cc:* clue@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal**** > > **** > > I agree that x,y,z is best. > > Two points for rectangles only works if the point of capture is also > signaled (otherwise you can not determine the plane). Since signaling > point of capture is optional, I prefer to send all four points. (it also > somewhat simplifies the computation needed in the receiver). > > Stephen Botzko**** > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:49 AM, Duckworth, Mark < > Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com> wrote:**** > > > I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down.**** > > That's fine with me too. > > As for using 2 points or 4 points or some other way of describing the > area, it does get a bit tricky if you want to be really exact about it. > Using only two points would mean we have to make some other limitations > about the orientation of the rectangular area (and confine it to a > rectangle). I thought we probably don't want to impose those limitations= . > I was thinking we use 4 points in the same plane to define a > quadrilateral. I think it would work out fine if implementers used these= 4 > points to define rectangles perpendicular to the floor even if it isn't > exactly correct for the angle of the camera. But I'm open to other ideas= . > > Mark**** > > > -----Original Message----- > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Marshall Eubanks > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 7:05 AM > To: Christian Groves > Cc: clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Christian Groves < > Christian.Groves@nteczone.com> wrote: > > I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. > > I prefer too as well. I think it matches general use. I made my proposal > purely in case some people felt strongly that we need to do something > non-standard. > > Do long as its > > used consistently I think its more intuitive than coming up with yet > > another naming convention. > > > > Agree > > Marshall > > > Christian > > > > On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote: > >> > >> I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt detectable > >> (delta z values) > >> > >> No problem with using alternate variable names that are more intuitive= . > >> > >> Mike > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks > >> > wrote= : > >> > >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer >> > wrote: > >> > Comment from the peanut gallery: > >> > 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of > >> reference. > >> > 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and > >> lower right > >> > (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view > >> > Mike > >> > >> Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the field of view > >> isn't rectangular, or > >> it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points). > >> > >> Regards > >> Marshall > >> > >> * A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for > >> left-right, > >> back-front, up-down, > >> or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for > >> > >> A - along screen > >> D - depth into audience > >> V - vertical > >> > >> If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no one will be > >> confused by z not being vertical, etc. > >> > >> > > >> > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) > >> > > >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. > >> >> > >> >> This material is potentially for the framework document, not a > >> separate > >> >> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle > >> spatial > >> >> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are already > >> descried > >> >> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put into the > >> framework > >> >> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other thought= s? > >> >> > >> >> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we > >> thought it > >> >> would be a good idea to make the material available to people > >> for them > >> >> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are > >> going to > >> >> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. > >> >> > >> >> Thanks, > >> >> Allyn > >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org > >> [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org ] On > >> Behalf > >> >> Of > >> >> > Paul Kyzivat > >> >> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM > >> >> > To: clue@ietf.org > >> >> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal > >> >> > > >> >> > Brian, > >> >> > > >> >> > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the > >> >> blackout? > >> >> > > >> >> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework slides > >> for the > >> >> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides= . > >> >> > > >> >> > Thanks, > >> >> > Paul > >> >> > > >> >> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: > >> >> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system > >> proposal which > >> >> > will > >> >> > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give > >> everyone a > >> >> > > chance to read it over. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > -Brian > >> >> > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > clue mailing list > >> >> > clue@ietf.org > >> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> clue mailing list > >> >> clue@ietf.org > >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > clue mailing list > >> > clue@ietf.org > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> clue mailing list > >> clue@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > > > _______________________________________________ > > clue mailing list > > clue@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue**** > > **** > > ** ** > --20cf307abca98a2e6704b1bce709 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I see no issue with figuring out the Cartesian coordinates on the sender si= de.

I see lots of issues dealing with polar coordinates in receiver= s, in particular it is very hard to compute whether two captures are adjace= nt or not - which is the single most important piece of information.

Stephen Botzko


On Tue, Nov 15, 20= 11 at 9:50 AM, Paul Coverdale <coverdale@sympatico.ca> wrote:

My thinking for using po= lar coordinates for the camera is that, from a practical point of view, how= do we figure out the Cartesian coordinates for the 4 points that define th= e area of capture?

=A0

=85Paul

=A0

From: Stephen Botzko [mail= to:stephen.bo= tzko@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:52 AM
To: Paul Coverdal= e
Cc: Duckworth, Mark; clue@ietf.org


= Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal

=A0

I would rather not mix cartesian and polar coordinates.=A0

F= or multiple cameras, using degrees only works if you use the camera locatio= n as the origin of the polar coordinate system for that camera.=A0 Having m= ultiple origins in the coordinate system seems needlessly complex.

Steve B.

On Tue, Nov 15, 2= 011 at 8:43 AM, Paul Coverdale <coverdale@sympatico.ca> wrote:

=

= For the camera direction, wouldn=92t it be more logical to define it in azi= muth-elevation (in=A0 degrees)?

=A0

=85Pa= ul

=A0

=A0<= /p>

I agree that x,y,z= is best. =A0

=A0Two points for rectangles only works if the point = of capture is also signaled (otherwise you can not determine the plane).=A0= Since signaling point of capture is optional, I prefer to send all four po= ints. (it also somewhat simplifies the computation needed in the receiver).=

Stephen Botzko

On Tue, Nov= 15, 2011 at 7:49 AM, Duckworth, Mark <Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com> wrote:=

> I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right= , back-front, up-down.

That&#= 39;s fine with me too.

As for using 2 points or 4 points or some oth= er way of describing the area, it does get a bit tricky if you want to be r= eally exact about it. =A0Using only two points would mean we have to make s= ome other limitations about the orientation of the rectangular area (and co= nfine it to a rectangle). =A0I thought we probably don't want to impose= those limitations. =A0I was thinking we use 4 points in the same plane to = define a quadrilateral. =A0I think it would work out fine if implementers u= sed these 4 points to define rectangles perpendicular to the floor even if = it isn't exactly correct for the angle of the camera. =A0But I'm op= en to other ideas.

Mark


-----Original Message-----
From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mai= lto:clue-bounces= @ietf.org] On Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 7:05 AM
To: Christian Groves
Cc: clue@ietf.org
Subjec= t: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 a= t 5:31 PM, Christian Groves <Christian.Groves@nteczone.com> wrote:
> I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down.
I prefer too as well. I think it matches general use. I made my proposal = purely in case some people felt strongly that we need to do something non-s= tandard.

=A0Do long as its
> used consistently I think its more intuitive = than coming up with yet
> another naming convention.
>

A= gree

Marshall

> Christian
>
> On 15/11/2011 7:= 27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote:
>>
>> I was still assuming the z component was used, thus ti= lt detectable
>> (delta z values)
>>
>> No probl= em with using alternate variable names that are more intuitive.
>>=
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1= :56 PM, Marshall Eubanks
>> <marshall.eubanks@gmail.com <mailto:marshall.euban= ks@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> =A0 =A0On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hamme= r <mphmmr@gmail.co= m
>> =A0 =A0<mailto:mphmmr@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> =A0 =A0> Comment from the peanut gallery:
>> =A0 =A0&g= t; 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the frame of
>&= gt; =A0 =A0reference.
>> =A0 =A0> 2. If a rectangular system is= always used, the upper left and
>> =A0 =A0lower right
>> =A0 =A0> (or vice versa) points = would be sufficient to define the view
>> =A0 =A0> Mike
>= >
>> =A0 =A0Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either th= e field of view
>> =A0 =A0isn't rectangular, or
>> =A0 =A0it has a tilt = (i.e., you have to know the z* of those points).
>>
>> = =A0 =A0Regards
>> =A0 =A0Marshall
>>
>> =A0 =A0*= A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for
>> left-right,
>> =A0 =A0back-front, up-down,
>> = =A0 =A0or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V (for
>= ;>
>> =A0 =A0A - along screen
>> =A0 =A0D - depth into= audience
>> =A0 =A0V - vertical
>>
>> =A0 =A0If we use a completely different nomenclature, = then no one will be
>> =A0 =A0confused by z not being vertical, et= c.
>>
>> =A0 =A0>
>> =A0 =A0> On Sun, Nov = 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn)
>> =A0 =A0<al= lyn@cisco.com <mailto:allyn@cisco.com>>
>> =A0 =A0> wrote:
>&g= t; =A0 =A0>>
>> =A0 =A0>> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer.>> =A0 =A0>>
>> =A0 =A0>> This material is pote= ntially for the framework document, not a
>> =A0 =A0separate
&g= t;> =A0 =A0>> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for h= ow to handle
>> =A0 =A0spatial
>> =A0 =A0>> relations. It fleshes o= ut the point and area that are already
>> =A0 =A0descried
>&= gt; =A0 =A0>> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put i= nto the
>> =A0 =A0framework
>> =A0 =A0>> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you= other thoughts?
>> =A0 =A0>>
>> =A0 =A0>> Th= e slides and this note are the same. As Brian mentioned, we
>> =A0= =A0thought it
>> =A0 =A0>> would be a good idea to make the material availabl= e to people
>> =A0 =A0for them
>> =A0 =A0>> to thin= k about prior to hearing about it in the slides that are
>> =A0 = =A0going to
>> =A0 =A0>> be presented during the framework discussion in CL= UE.
>> =A0 =A0>>
>> =A0 =A0>> Thanks,
>= > =A0 =A0>> Allyn
>> =A0 =A0>>
>> =A0 =A0&= gt;> > -----Original Message-----
>> =A0 =A0>> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org>
&= gt;> =A0 =A0[mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org>] On
>> =A0 =A0Behalf
>> =A0 =A0>> Of
>> =A0 =A0&g= t;> > Paul Kyzivat
>> =A0 =A0>> > Sent: Friday, Nov= ember 11, 2011 11:46 AM
>> =A0 =A0>> > To: clue@ietf.org <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
>> =A0 =A0>> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system pr= oposal
>> =A0 =A0>> >
>> =A0 =A0>> > Br= ian,
>> =A0 =A0>> >
>> =A0 =A0>> > Do y= ou intend to publish this as a draft once we get past the
>> =A0 =A0>> blackout?
>> =A0 =A0>> >
>= > =A0 =A0>> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framew= ork slides
>> =A0 =A0for the
>> =A0 =A0>> > meet= ing. I assume the intent is to discuss based on the slides.
>> =A0 =A0>> >
>> =A0 =A0>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 = Thanks,
>> =A0 =A0>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 Paul
>> =A0 = =A0>> >
>> =A0 =A0>> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Bri= an Baldino (bbaldino) wrote:
>> =A0 =A0>> > > Attached is the doc describing the coord= inate system
>> =A0 =A0proposal which
>> =A0 =A0>> = > will
>> =A0 =A0>> > > be presented next week; wan= ted to send it out now to give
>> =A0 =A0everyone a
>> =A0 =A0>> > > chance to = read it over.
>> =A0 =A0>> > >
>> =A0 =A0>= > > > -Brian
>> =A0 =A0>> >
>> =A0 =A0&= gt;> > _______________________________________________
>> =A0 =A0>> > clue mailing list
>> =A0 =A0>>= > clue@ietf.org = <mailto:clue@ietf.org= >
>> =A0 =A0>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue<= br>>> =A0 =A0>> _______________________________________________=
>> =A0 =A0>> clue mailing list
>> =A0 =A0>> clue@ietf.org <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
>> =A0 =A0>> https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/clue
>> =A0 =A0>
>> =A0 =A0>
>> =A0 =A0> ______= _________________________________________
>> =A0 =A0> clue mail= ing list
>> =A0 =A0> clue@ietf.org <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
>> =A0 =A0> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>&g= t; =A0 =A0>
>> =A0 =A0>
>>
>>
>><= br>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> clue m= ailing list
>> = clue@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue<= br> >
> _______________________________________________
> clue m= ailing list
> clue= @ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>
_______________________________________________
clue mailing lis= t
clue@ietf.org= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
_______________________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
https://= www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue

=A0

<= /div>

=A0


--20cf307abca98a2e6704b1bce709-- From john@jlc.net Mon Nov 14 18:46:52 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE65E1F0D4B for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:46:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.535 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.535 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.064, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yb+eO7SDYqPz for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:46:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.jlc.net (mailhost.jlc.net [199.201.159.4]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 562391F0D49 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:46:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mailhost.jlc.net (Postfix, from userid 104) id 62F3A33C24; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 21:46:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 21:46:52 -0500 From: John Leslie To: Brian Rosen Message-ID: <20111115024652.GB8483@verdi> References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> <4EC1BC84.5040904@alum.mit.edu> <4BD31A04-35E4-4FB8-B0B0-258F51F2D43D@brianrosen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4BD31A04-35E4-4FB8-B0B0-258F51F2D43D@brianrosen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 02:46:53 -0000 Brian Rosen wrote: > > While I see why you might like that, and of course we can make it > work, it does seem much more natural to treat X/Y the way the > capture and presentation devices do, and treat Z as back/front. I'm going to disagree with Brian here. Z as back/front _is_ normal when processing video; but that's not what we're trying to define here -- we're trying to relate the camera to the room (whether the actual room or some virtual room). Thus, _room_ coordinates are to be preferred to _video_ coordinates. (YMMV, I suppose...) -- John Leslie From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Mon Nov 14 18:48:45 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2182211E814B for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:48:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yH3j2og27nVD for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:48:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.32]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A94211E813E for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:48:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.19]) by qmta03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id xEjX1h00A0QuhwU53Eokvz; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 02:48:44 +0000 Received: from dhcp-16f3.meeting.ietf.org ([130.129.22.243]) by omta02.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id xEoZ1h01x5EhBnE3NEodM5; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 02:48:42 +0000 Message-ID: <4EC1D301.2030403@alum.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 21:48:33 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clue@ietf.org References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 02:48:45 -0000 On 11/14/11 8:16 PM, Stephen Botzko wrote: > The framework draft already does that in section 5.3.4. Yes, but the framework slides from yesterday have a "Directionality" slide that has z being front to back. I don't much care, as long as everybody has the same definition. Thanks, Paul > Stephen Botzko > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Michael Hammer > wrote: > > You would still need to explain somewhere how x, y, and z map to: > > H-orizontal > V-ertical > D-epth > > Mike > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Christian Groves > > wrote: > > I'd prefer to use x,y,z for left-right, back-front, up-down. Do > long as its used consistently I think its more intuitive than > coming up with yet another naming convention. > > Christian > > On 15/11/2011 7:27 AM, Michael Hammer wrote: > > I was still assuming the z component was used, thus tilt > detectable (delta z values) > > No problem with using alternate variable names that are more > intuitive. > > Mike > > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Marshall Eubanks > > >> wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Michael Hammer > > >> wrote: > > Comment from the peanut gallery: > > 1. This is a very good start to clearly explaining the > frame of > reference. > > 2. If a rectangular system is always used, the upper left and > lower right > > (or vice versa) points would be sufficient to define the view > > Mike > > Note that if the cameras are tilted, then either the > field of view > isn't rectangular, or > it has a tilt (i.e., you have to know the z* of those > points). > > Regards > Marshall > > * A minor point, but can we please use either x,y,z for > left-right, > back-front, up-down, > or abandon that terminology entirely ? How about A, D, V > (for > > A - along screen > D - depth into audience > V - vertical > > If we use a completely different nomenclature, then no > one will be > confused by z not being vertical, etc. > > > > > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) > > >> > > wrote: > >> > >> I think Brian is traveling, so I'll answer. > >> > >> This material is potentially for the framework document, > not a > separate > >> draft. It represents the authors' proposal for how to handle > spatial > >> relations. It fleshes out the point and area that are > already > descried > >> in the document. Whatever the WG decides will get put > into the > framework > >> document. Is that not also how you see it? Had you other > thoughts? > >> > >> The slides and this note are the same. As Brian > mentioned, we > thought it > >> would be a good idea to make the material available to > people > for them > >> to think about prior to hearing about it in the slides > that are > going to > >> be presented during the framework discussion in CLUE. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Allyn > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org > > > [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org > >__] On > Behalf > >> Of > >> > Paul Kyzivat > >> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:46 AM > >> > To: clue@ietf.org > > > >> > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal > >> > > >> > Brian, > >> > > >> > Do you intend to publish this as a draft once we get > past the > >> blackout? > >> > > >> > This seems to be largely replicated in the framework > slides > for the > >> > meeting. I assume the intent is to discuss based on > the slides. > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > Paul > >> > > >> > On 11/11/11 12:24 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: > >> > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system > proposal which > >> > will > >> > > be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to > give > everyone a > >> > > chance to read it over. > >> > > > >> > > -Brian > >> > > >> > _________________________________________________ > >> > clue mailing list > >> > clue@ietf.org > > > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/__listinfo/clue > > >> _________________________________________________ > >> clue mailing list > >> clue@ietf.org > > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/__listinfo/clue > > > > > > > _________________________________________________ > > clue mailing list > > clue@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/__listinfo/clue > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/__listinfo/clue > > > _________________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/__listinfo/clue > > > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From br@brianrosen.net Mon Nov 14 18:50:39 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC671F0D50 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:50:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.981 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.981 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.618, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I3Dhh95hFp8J for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:50:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from barmail3.idig.net (barmail3.idig.net [64.34.111.253]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CA8C1F0D47 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:50:34 -0800 (PST) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1321325433-049e681064197960001-dOUo1C Received: from wwh1.winweblinux.com (wwh1.winweblinux.com [76.74.186.184]) by barmail3.idig.net with ESMTP id CgMt4UxNCJFl3CVS; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:50:33 -0800 (PST) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: br@brianrosen.net X-Barracuda-Apparent-Source-IP: 76.74.186.184 Received: from neustargw.va.neustar.com ([209.173.53.233] helo=smas-lt500.cis.neustar.com) by wwh1.winweblinux.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQ96X-003yLp-V8; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:50:34 -0800 X-Barracuda-BBL-IP: 209.173.53.233 X-Barracuda-RBL-IP: 209.173.53.233 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Brian Rosen In-Reply-To: <20111115024652.GB8483@verdi> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 21:50:26 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <4EBD7B6C.9080701@alum.mit.edu> <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625E16B@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> <4EC196C6.1060106@nteczone.com> <4EC1BC84.5040904@alum.mit.edu> <4BD31A04-35E4-4FB8-B0B0-258F51F2D43D@brianrosen.net> <20111115024652.GB8483@verdi> To: John Leslie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-Barracuda-Connect: wwh1.winweblinux.com[76.74.186.184] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1321325433 X-Barracuda-URL: http://64.34.111.253:8000/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at idig.net X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=3.5 tests= X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.2.80285 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 02:50:39 -0000 Okay, I see the point. Brian On Nov 14, 2011, at 9:46 PM, John Leslie wrote: > Brian Rosen wrote: >> >> While I see why you might like that, and of course we can make it >> work, it does seem much more natural to treat X/Y the way the >> capture and presentation devices do, and treat Z as back/front. > > I'm going to disagree with Brian here. > > Z as back/front _is_ normal when processing video; but that's not > what we're trying to define here -- we're trying to relate the camera > to the room (whether the actual room or some virtual room). > > Thus, _room_ coordinates are to be preferred to _video_ coordinates. > > (YMMV, I suppose...) > > -- > John Leslie From Even.roni@huawei.com Mon Nov 14 22:12:32 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0221321F8D76 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 22:12:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.546 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.546 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xi+DsiAe9Yti for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 22:12:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC8BD21F8B08 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 22:12:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LUO00MS8UHCXZ@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for clue@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:10:24 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LUO00DZRUHCL3@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for clue@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:10:24 +0800 (CST) Received: from windows8d787f9 (dhcp-17b3.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.23.179]) by szxml12-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0LUO00IAQUHBW5@szxml12-in.huawei.com> for clue@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:10:24 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:07:49 +0200 From: Roni Even To: clue@ietf.org Message-id: <00a101cca35c$e78b8160$b6a28420$%roni@huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_qY475yhXr8MVgUrej6aPgQ)" Content-language: en-us Thread-index: AcyjXOakl5rV/gkZQdW+ECVq35W3JQ== Subject: [clue] Area of capture and the co-ordinate system X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 06:12:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_qY475yhXr8MVgUrej6aPgQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, I assume that the issue of what is Y or Z will be solved. I am not sure how a consumer can use the co-ordinates if he does not know where the area of capture is. Currently the axis origin is not defined, I assume that the point of capture is the camera (or capture device) at least for a Telepresence room. Getting the information about the area of capture without knowing where it is in the physical world (regardless if the units are virtual or real) does not provide any information that can be used, is the area of capture in the back of the room, outside the room where the lines from the camera intersect (like the example in the CLUE session presentation). What is the use you see for the area of capture by a consumer as defined now with regards to a TP room. Roni Even --Boundary_(ID_qY475yhXr8MVgUrej6aPgQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Hi,

I assume that the issue of what is Y or Z will be solved. I am not sure how a consumer can use the co-ordinates if he does not know where the area of capture is.

Currently the axis origin is not defined, I assume that the point of capture is the camera (or capture device) at least for a Telepresence room. Getting the information about the area of capture without knowing where it is in the physical world (regardless if the units are virtual or real) does not provide any information that can be used, is the area of capture in the back of the room, outside the room where the lines from the camera intersect (like the example in the CLUE session presentation).

What is the use you see for the area of capture by a consumer as defined now with regards to a TP room.  

Roni Even

 

 

 

 

 

--Boundary_(ID_qY475yhXr8MVgUrej6aPgQ)-- From Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com Mon Nov 14 23:04:46 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BCE81F0C3B for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 23:04:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Abs4bu0QqSzv for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 23:04:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from crpehubprd02.polycom.com (crpehubprd01.polycom.com [140.242.64.158]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C773B1F0C47 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 23:04:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from Crpmboxprd01.polycom.com ([fe80::ad68:5a0:c919:66b6]) by crpehubprd02.polycom.com ([fe80::5efe:10.236.0.154%12]) with mapi; Mon, 14 Nov 2011 23:04:41 -0800 From: "Duckworth, Mark" To: "clue@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 23:04:39 -0800 Thread-Topic: [clue] Area of capture and the co-ordinate system Thread-Index: AcyjXOakl5rV/gkZQdW+ECVq35W3JQAAnKvQ Message-ID: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A6102FA0A268E@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> References: <00a101cca35c$e78b8160$b6a28420$%roni@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <00a101cca35c$e78b8160$b6a28420$%roni@huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A6102FA0A268ECRPMBOXPRD01p_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [clue] Area of capture and the co-ordinate system X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 07:04:46 -0000 --_000_44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A6102FA0A268ECRPMBOXPRD01p_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Roni, We have multiple media captures that are spatially related (within a captur= e set). Each media capture can have an area of capture attribute which def= ines an area in the physical world (assuming real cameras/microphones here,= not synthetically generated captures). The key thing is that these areas = provide information about how the captures are related to each other. That= is the important part, as I see it - the information is useful for knowing= how each of the media captures is related to the other captures in the phy= sical world. The same applies to the point of capture for each media capture. These poi= nts provide relative information for the spatial relationship between all t= he capture devices and capture areas in the physical world. With the clarification we discussed in the meeting, about defining the capt= ure area as representing the "plane of interest" (e.g. the main seating loc= ations in a telepresence room), this is enough information for a consumer t= o do things like: - Render multiple streams with the correct spatial relation to eac= h other (left to right, top to bottom) - Render video streams with a correctly sized gap between them, if= the areas of capture have a gap between them - Render streams at "real size" (if the coordinate scale is in mil= limeters) - Choose the best video capture for eye contact, if there are mult= iple choices with overlapping areas - Render audio and video spatially consistent with each other Are you disagreeing with the above? Are you proposing adding more informat= ion that is not included yet? Is there some other object or area for which= you also want to know this relative spatial information? Mark From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ron= i Even Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 2:08 PM To: clue@ietf.org Subject: [clue] Area of capture and the co-ordinate system Hi, I assume that the issue of what is Y or Z will be solved. I am not sure how= a consumer can use the co-ordinates if he does not know where the area of = capture is. Currently the axis origin is not defined, I assume that the point of captur= e is the camera (or capture device) at least for a Telepresence room. Getti= ng the information about the area of capture without knowing where it is in= the physical world (regardless if the units are virtual or real) does not = provide any information that can be used, is the area of capture in the bac= k of the room, outside the room where the lines from the camera intersect (= like the example in the CLUE session presentation). What is the use you see for the area of capture by a consumer as defined no= w with regards to a TP room. Roni Even --_000_44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A6102FA0A268ECRPMBOXPRD01p_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Roni,

 

We have multiple media captures that are spatially = related (within a capture set).  Each media capture can have an area o= f capture attribute which defines an area in the physical world (assuming r= eal cameras/microphones here, not synthetically generated captures).  = The key thing is that these areas provide information about how the capture= s are related to each other.  That is the important part, as I see it = - the information is useful for knowing how each of the media captures is r= elated to the other captures in the physical world.

The same applies to the po= int of capture for each media capture.  These points provide relative = information for the spatial relationship between all the capture devices an= d capture areas in the physical world.

 

With the clarification we discussed= in the meeting, about defining the capture area as representing the “= ;plane of interest” (e.g. the main seating locations in a telepresenc= e room), this is enough information for a consumer to do things like:<= /o:p>

-          Render multiple streams with the = correct spatial relation to each other (left to right, top to bottom)<= /o:p>

-          Render video streams with a corre= ctly sized gap between them, if the areas of capture have a gap between the= m

-          Render streams at “r= eal size” (if the coordinate scale is in millimeters)

- &n= bsp;        Choose the best video capture for eye cont= act, if there are multiple choices with overlapping areas=

-  = ;        = Render audio and video spatially consistent w= ith each other

 

Are you disagreeing with the above?  Are you proposing= adding more information that is not included yet?  Is there some othe= r object or area for which you also want to know this relative spatial info= rmation?

 

Mark

 

= From:= clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roni Even
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 2:08 PM
To: clue@ietf.org
Subject: [clue] Area of capture and the co-ordina= te system

 =

Hi,

I ass= ume that the issue of what is Y or Z will be solved. I am not sure how a co= nsumer can use the co-ordinates if he does not know where the area of captu= re is.

Currently the axis origin is not de= fined, I assume that the point of capture is the camera (or capture device)= at least for a Telepresence room. Getting the information about the area o= f capture without knowing where it is in the physical world (regardless if = the units are virtual or real) does not provide any information that can be= used, is the area of capture in the back of the room, outside the room whe= re the lines from the camera intersect (like the example in the CLUE sessio= n presentation).

What is the use you see f= or the area of capture by a consumer as defined now with regards to a TP ro= om.

Roni Even

 

 

 

<= p class=3DDefault> =

 

= --_000_44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A6102FA0A268ECRPMBOXPRD01p_-- From Even.roni@huawei.com Tue Nov 15 01:02:35 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6705421F8D3F for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:02:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.866 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.866 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.732, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bdwdC2jiYHMl for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:02:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (szxga04-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.67]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FC1721F8D3E for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:02:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LUP008U22CHK5@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for clue@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:00:17 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LUP009H42BXJC@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for clue@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:00:17 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml208-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id AFB28812; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:00:17 +0800 Received: from SZXEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.59) by szxeml208-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.60) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:00:12 +0800 Received: from SZXEML519-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.4]) by szxeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:00:06 +0800 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:00:05 +0000 From: Roni even In-reply-to: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A6102FA0A268E@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> X-Originating-IP: [172.24.2.41] To: "Duckworth, Mark" , "clue@ietf.org" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_aZrhIKDTtB5EsLEvrttrdA)" Content-language: en-US Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Thread-topic: [clue] Area of capture and the co-ordinate system Thread-index: AcyjXOakl5rV/gkZQdW+ECVq35W3JQAAnKvQAAVXDAg= X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <00a101cca35c$e78b8160$b6a28420$%roni@huawei.com> <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A6102FA0A268E@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> Subject: Re: [clue] Area of capture and the co-ordinate system X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:02:35 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_aZrhIKDTtB5EsLEvrttrdA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Mark, Defining the plan of interest will solve the problem if the consumer will k= now what is the plan of interest that was used by the provider for calculat= ing the area of capture. Roni ________________________________ From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [clue-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Duckworth,= Mark [Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 9:04 To: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Area of capture and the co-ordinate system Hi Roni, We have multiple media captures that are spatially related (within a captur= e set). Each media capture can have an area of capture attribute which def= ines an area in the physical world (assuming real cameras/microphones here,= not synthetically generated captures). The key thing is that these areas = provide information about how the captures are related to each other. That= is the important part, as I see it - the information is useful for knowing= how each of the media captures is related to the other captures in the phy= sical world. The same applies to the point of capture for each media capture. These poi= nts provide relative information for the spatial relationship between all t= he capture devices and capture areas in the physical world. With the clarification we discussed in the meeting, about defining the capt= ure area as representing the =93plane of interest=94 (e.g. the main seating= locations in a telepresence room), this is enough information for a consum= er to do things like: - Render multiple streams with the correct spatial relation to eac= h other (left to right, top to bottom) - Render video streams with a correctly sized gap between them, if= the areas of capture have a gap between them - Render streams at =93real size=94 (if the coordinate scale is in= millimeters) - Choose the best video capture for eye contact, if there are mult= iple choices with overlapping areas - Render audio and video spatially consistent with each other Are you disagreeing with the above? Are you proposing adding more informat= ion that is not included yet? Is there some other object or area for which= you also want to know this relative spatial information? Mark From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ron= i Even Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 2:08 PM To: clue@ietf.org Subject: [clue] Area of capture and the co-ordinate system Hi, I assume that the issue of what is Y or Z will be solved. I am not sure how= a consumer can use the co-ordinates if he does not know where the area of = capture is. Currently the axis origin is not defined, I assume that the point of captur= e is the camera (or capture device) at least for a Telepresence room. Getti= ng the information about the area of capture without knowing where it is in= the physical world (regardless if the units are virtual or real) does not = provide any information that can be used, is the area of capture in the bac= k of the room, outside the room where the lines from the camera intersect (= like the example in the CLUE session presentation). What is the use you see for the area of capture by a consumer as defined no= w with regards to a TP room. Roni Even --Boundary_(ID_aZrhIKDTtB5EsLEvrttrdA) Content-type: text/html; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Mark,

Defining the plan of interest will solve the problem if the consumer wil= l know what is the plan of interest that was used by the provider for calcu= lating the area of capture.

 

Roni

From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [clue-bounces@= ietf.org] on behalf of Duckworth, Mark [Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 9:04
To: clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] Area of capture and the co-ordinate system

Hi Roni,

 

We have multiple medi= a captures that are spatially related (within a capture set).  Each me= dia capture can have an area of capture attribute which defines an area in = the physical world (assuming real cameras/microphones here, not synthetically generated captures).  The key thing is that t= hese areas provide information about how the captures are related to each o= ther.  That is the important part, as I see it - the information is us= eful for knowing how each of the media captures is related to the other captures in the physical world.

The same applies to t= he point of capture for each media capture.  These points provide rela= tive information for the spatial relationship between all the capture devic= es and capture areas in the physical world.

 

With the clarificatio= n we discussed in the meeting, about defining the capture area as represent= ing the =93plane of interest=94 (e.g. the main seating locations in a telep= resence room), this is enough information for a consumer to do things like:

- &= nbsp;        Render multiple streams= with the correct spatial relation to each other (left to right, top to bot= tom)

- &= nbsp;        Render video streams wi= th a correctly sized gap between them, if the areas of capture have a gap b= etween them

- &= nbsp;        Render streams at =93re= al size=94 (if the coordinate scale is in millimeters)

- &= nbsp;        Choose the best video c= apture for eye contact, if there are multiple choices with overlapping area= s

- &= nbsp;        Render audio and video = spatially consistent with each other

 

Are you disagreeing w= ith the above?  Are you proposing adding more information that is not = included yet?  Is there some other object or area for which you also w= ant to know this relative spatial information?

 

Mark

 

From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@iet= f.org] On Behalf Of Roni Even
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 2:08 PM
To: clue@ietf.org
Subject: [clue] Area of capture and the co-ordinate system

 

Hi,

I assume that the issue of what is Y or Z will be so= lved. I am not sure how a consumer can use the co-ordinates if he does not = know where the area of capture is.

Currently the axis origin is not defined, I assume tha= t the point of capture is the camera (or capture device) at least for a Tel= epresence room. Getting the information about the area of capture without k= nowing where it is in the physical world (regardless if the units are virtual or real) does not provide any i= nformation that can be used, is the area of capture in the back of the room= , outside the room where the lines from the camera intersect (like the exam= ple in the CLUE session presentation).

What is the use you see for the area of capture by a c= onsumer as defined now with regards to a TP room.

Roni Even

 

 

 

 

 

--Boundary_(ID_aZrhIKDTtB5EsLEvrttrdA)-- From ietf@meetecho.com Tue Nov 15 05:41:41 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E34211E811F for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 05:41:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.719 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.719 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BS0MOtpq22Uu for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 05:41:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpw1.aruba.it (smtpipvs3.aruba.it [62.149.128.188]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 4054711E810C for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 05:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 10275 invoked by uid 89); 15 Nov 2011 13:41:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO aruba.it) (62.149.158.90) by smtpw1.ad.aruba.it with SMTP; 15 Nov 2011 13:41:29 -0000 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:41:29 +0100 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Meetecho IETF support" To: clue@ietf.org X-XaM3-API-Version: V3(R2) X-SenderIP: 130.129.21.177 X-Spam-Rating: smtpw1.ad.aruba.it 1.6.2 0/1000/N Subject: [clue] CLUE session recording available X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:41:41 -0000 Dear all,=0A=0Athe full recording (synchronized video, audio, slides and = jabber room)=0Aof yesterday's CLUE session is available.=0A=0AYou can wat= ch it by either clicking the proper link on the remote participation page= (http://www.ietf.org/meeting/82/remote-participation.html#Meetecho), or = by directly accessing the following URL:=0Ahttp://www.meetecho.com/ietf82= /recordings=0A=0AFor the chair(s): please feel free to put the link to th= e recording in the minutes, if you think this might be useful.=0A=0AIn ca= se of problems with the playout, just drop an e-mail to=0Aietf-support@me= etecho.com.=0A=0APlease keep in mind that the video quality is far from o= ptimal for this recording, since yesterday the room was too dark. Further= more, there is a 5 minutes gap in the audio recording due to the temporar= y disconnection of the mixer laptop (which was not yet on the wired IETF = network).=0A=0ACheers,=0Athe Meetecho Team=0A=C2=A0 From Christian.Groves@nteczone.com Tue Nov 15 14:05:38 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B04AC11E80BB for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:05:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.475 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.475 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.124, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3wDflv2AQb5R for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:05:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net (ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net [150.101.137.131]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 463B411E80AB for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:05:30 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AjAAANfhwk520ckv/2dsb2JhbAAMNplmkn8BAQEEAQEBCSYBBRsbBBcLEQQBAQEJHgcPAhYfERMGAgEBiAa4awSKEQSmQA Received: from ppp118-209-201-47.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net (HELO [127.0.0.1]) ([118.209.201.47]) by ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 16 Nov 2011 08:35:28 +1030 Message-ID: <4EC2E224.40805@nteczone.com> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:05:24 +1100 From: Christian Groves User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clue@ietf.org References: <4ebe951b.a87a440a.7d22.ffffd092@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: <4ebe951b.a87a440a.7d22.ffffd092@mx.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 22:05:38 -0000 Hello Brian and Roni, On the single capture system my understand is that it would be "optional" to send the capture co-ordinates. Is this correct? or? It seems that Roni assumes from the document that "need not" means "shall not" and Brian seems to assume Roni wants to say "shall send". The proposal doesn't mention "area of scene" which is in the current framework document. Is the inference that this would be removed? Regards, Christian On 13/11/2011 2:45 AM, Roni Even wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > This proposal do not address the issue of knowing what is the gap > between the capture views at the row where people sit which we > discussed in the interim meeting unless the X is at the row of > participants or it is clear where it is so that it can be calculated. > If the origin is not known and the X axis position is not know it does > not provide the information. > > I think that it will not work when you have a system that can do both > the regular view and multiview since if you do not know where the X > axis is in relation to the row of participant the information will not > be enough to know which part of the row you see in the multiview if > the regular view will each show two participants. > > Roni > > *From:*clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf > Of *Brian Baldino (bbaldino) > *Sent:* Friday, November 11, 2011 9:00 PM > *To:* Roni even; clue@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal > > Hey Roni, inline. > > *From:*Roni even [mailto:Even.roni@huawei.com] > *Sent:* Friday, November 11, 2011 10:35 AM > *To:* Brian Baldino (bbaldino); clue@ietf.org > *Subject:* RE: CLUE Coordinate system proposal > > Hi Brian, > > I think that in order to agree we need first to agree on what are the > co-ordinates used for. > > I am not sure why a one capture device TP system will not send > co-ordinates if they can be used to scale to real size and maybe if > real co-ordinates (mm) are used can also provide relative scaling when > composing a mixed video. > > */[BB] I don’t believe it’s safe to assume that all devices will even > be able to know their geometry, so I don’t think it’s fair to require > that they send coordinates expressed in real-world dimensions./* > > As for the origin, again, what is the use here. I am also wondering if > you supply X co-ordinates with no other information where in the room > are they relating to. I think I am OK with the concept as long as it > will be clear that when you provide only x co-ordinates they describe > the line of the people in front of the camera (Probably a straight > line between the two extreme people). > > */[BB] Not sure I follow all of this, but, the proposal does not allow > for expressing only a subset of dimensions when expressing the > coordinates (some of the diagrams leave a dimension out for purposes > of simplification, this is called out in the text). In an actual CLUE > exchange each point would be expressed in all 3 dimensions (with the > caveat that a ‘NaN’-type value could be used, per some of Stephan’s > concerns). I also don’t think there’s anything in there that ties the > X plane explicitly to something like a row of participants—I’m not > sure that’s an assumption we’d want to build in. /* > > Regards > > Roni > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*clue-bounces@ietf.org [clue-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of > Brian Baldino (bbaldino) [bbaldino@cisco.com] > *Sent:* Friday, November 11, 2011 19:24 > *To:* clue@ietf.org > *Subject:* [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system proposal which > will be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give > everyone a chance to read it over. > > -Brian > > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From bbaldino@cisco.com Tue Nov 15 15:17:53 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD15521F8461 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 15:17:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4rKFFdjftFS0 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 15:17:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-3.cisco.com (mtv-iport-3.cisco.com [173.36.130.14]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA70A11E8088 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 15:17:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=bbaldino@cisco.com; l=4964; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1321399072; x=1322608672; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:in-reply-to:references:from:to; bh=EKf7mJC4k4xZqQices/gFUS+w7WqyvwzbpBz5BBYWpk=; b=LAeS4czXgJzEdSu1q/RzCkUukAkesxTfTEFH6ggoNvWGflbA+ZJJL9E4 z0V1WjrqcLdDCAXeQ8zHtINFoScDhWXlpbbJ1Vs7urkBDFmdCx2oL6s1X 0b7vukZF72hyivLxBdsIPI/I0EBpecOr9RzU2yqtHYtp1vZwXFl7VU+cW A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApwAAJLywk6rRDoI/2dsb2JhbABDmWmQCIEFgXIBAQEDAQEBAQ8BHQo0BAwHBAIBCBEEAQEBCgYXAQYBJh8JCAEBBAESCBqHYAiaMgGeTASJLmMEiBORY4xX X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,517,1315180800"; d="scan'208";a="14440582" Received: from mtv-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.58.8]) by mtv-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Nov 2011 23:17:49 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by mtv-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAFNHnAY019614; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 23:17:49 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-233.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.88]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 15 Nov 2011 15:17:49 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 15:17:44 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4EC2E224.40805@nteczone.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal Thread-Index: Acyj4sGHUSU3GeguSnKuJIu1X7X/AAAB2XJg References: <4ebe951b.a87a440a.7d22.ffffd092@mx.google.com> <4EC2E224.40805@nteczone.com> From: "Brian Baldino (bbaldino)" To: "Christian Groves" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Nov 2011 23:17:49.0444 (UTC) FILETIME=[CAA6CC40:01CCA3EC] Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 23:17:54 -0000 Hey Christian, The slides/doc refer to the coordinates being optional, so a single capture device need not provide coordinates but could if it so wished (e.g. if it wanted to give the other side a sense of its real-world dimensions).=20 I did not mean to suggest that the area of scene was removed by not mentioning it in the slides; the slides were more intended to explain the workings of the coordinate system, not so much where the information would be placed. -Brian -----Original Message----- From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christian Groves Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 2:05 PM To: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal Hello Brian and Roni, On the single capture system my understand is that it would be=20 "optional" to send the capture co-ordinates. Is this correct? or? It=20 seems that Roni assumes from the document that "need not" means "shall=20 not" and Brian seems to assume Roni wants to say "shall send". The proposal doesn't mention "area of scene" which is in the current=20 framework document. Is the inference that this would be removed? Regards, Christian On 13/11/2011 2:45 AM, Roni Even wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > This proposal do not address the issue of knowing what is the gap=20 > between the capture views at the row where people sit which we=20 > discussed in the interim meeting unless the X is at the row of=20 > participants or it is clear where it is so that it can be calculated.=20 > If the origin is not known and the X axis position is not know it does > not provide the information. > > I think that it will not work when you have a system that can do both=20 > the regular view and multiview since if you do not know where the X=20 > axis is in relation to the row of participant the information will not > be enough to know which part of the row you see in the multiview if=20 > the regular view will each show two participants. > > Roni > > *From:*clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf > Of *Brian Baldino (bbaldino) > *Sent:* Friday, November 11, 2011 9:00 PM > *To:* Roni even; clue@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal > > Hey Roni, inline. > > *From:*Roni even [mailto:Even.roni@huawei.com] > *Sent:* Friday, November 11, 2011 10:35 AM > *To:* Brian Baldino (bbaldino); clue@ietf.org > *Subject:* RE: CLUE Coordinate system proposal > > Hi Brian, > > I think that in order to agree we need first to agree on what are the=20 > co-ordinates used for. > > I am not sure why a one capture device TP system will not send=20 > co-ordinates if they can be used to scale to real size and maybe if=20 > real co-ordinates (mm) are used can also provide relative scaling when > composing a mixed video. > > */[BB] I don't believe it's safe to assume that all devices will even=20 > be able to know their geometry, so I don't think it's fair to require=20 > that they send coordinates expressed in real-world dimensions./* > > As for the origin, again, what is the use here. I am also wondering if > you supply X co-ordinates with no other information where in the room=20 > are they relating to. I think I am OK with the concept as long as it=20 > will be clear that when you provide only x co-ordinates they describe=20 > the line of the people in front of the camera (Probably a straight=20 > line between the two extreme people). > > */[BB] Not sure I follow all of this, but, the proposal does not allow > for expressing only a subset of dimensions when expressing the=20 > coordinates (some of the diagrams leave a dimension out for purposes=20 > of simplification, this is called out in the text). In an actual CLUE=20 > exchange each point would be expressed in all 3 dimensions (with the=20 > caveat that a 'NaN'-type value could be used, per some of Stephan's=20 > concerns). I also don't think there's anything in there that ties the=20 > X plane explicitly to something like a row of participants-I'm not=20 > sure that's an assumption we'd want to build in. /* > > Regards > > Roni > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*clue-bounces@ietf.org [clue-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of=20 > Brian Baldino (bbaldino) [bbaldino@cisco.com] > *Sent:* Friday, November 11, 2011 19:24 > *To:* clue@ietf.org > *Subject:* [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal > > Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system proposal which=20 > will be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give=20 > everyone a chance to read it over. > > -Brian > > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Tue Nov 15 19:01:48 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24C7D21F8F3B for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:01:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.104, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DXDWoiLt7xKf for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:01:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ey0-f172.google.com (mail-ey0-f172.google.com [209.85.215.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FEE121F8F3A for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:01:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by eyg24 with SMTP id 24so7362475eyg.31 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:01:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=zNz3yu1pCaXJ7kbEnWUqNIDFmE6UUJ9mpzH/SJghZJo=; b=U27Rzq5meJ0g9IvT7mDEmts3EImqUAl7h7c+Hbrcz2R+rlTCX3ehijyH/PNt0onWw2 u/bK4SjTDIaY0PhsRsqlSKhwN+StY36RduXIsQF0rkhaXibY5fH5hKyrA/Yb56gLdPwY I936rbLsfN9wTJLNMgAc04eYG1e2eUVzefl+8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.7.66 with SMTP id h2mr6677257oba.14.1321412502316; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:01:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.159.73 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:01:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4ebe951b.a87a440a.7d22.ffffd092@mx.google.com> <4EC2E224.40805@nteczone.com> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 22:01:42 -0500 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: "Brian Baldino (bbaldino)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 03:01:48 -0000 Here are two ideas on coordinates. First : Our coordinates are obviously {Width, Height, Depth}, which we can shorten to {x,y,z}. I think that that is much more mnemonic. Second : That there be a variable, let's call it Coordinate_Type, with the following possible values Coordinate_Type = "Known" - values are in mm, as either measured or built into the system. Coordinate_Type = "Unknown" - values are quoted as in mm, but that is purely nominal and the scale is unknown. For example, a mobile device might report Width = "500" mm, but that is just a nominal value, the actual depth might be something different. That would, BTW, allow consumers to adjust scale, maybe even on the fly (by, say, detecting faces and scaling the image accordingly). In this case, e.g., two captures with Width={0,250} and Width={250,500} would imply captures that abut each other, and another with Width={0,500} would completely encompass the first two in the horizontal. You just wouldn't know the actual scale. And, finally, Coordinate_Type = "NoScale" - No scale is implied. All that is meant that a coordinate of N+X is further {to the left, deeper into the audience, higher} than a coordinate of N, for X > 0. NoScale should imply reflexivity, however, so that two captures with Width={0,250} and Width={251,252} would still imply captures that abut each other, and another with Width={0,251} would completely encompass the first two in the horizontal. The difference is that it would not be proper to say anything about the relative size of the two captures, except that they do not abut each other. (This might easily arise in a MCU setting, where two inputs use radically different Virtual coordinate assignments.) I believe that these 3 cases capture all of the use cases I have heard in our various meetings. Did I miss any ? Note that Coordinate_Type = "Known" can be treated as Coordinate_Type = "Unknown", and Coordinate_Type = "Unknown" can be treated as Coordinate_Type = "NoScale", so that composite images should take the lowest coordinate type of any image in the composite. Regards Marshall On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 6:17 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) wrote: > Hey Christian, > The slides/doc refer to the coordinates being optional, so a single > capture device need not provide coordinates but could if it so wished > (e.g. if it wanted to give the other side a sense of its real-world > dimensions). > > I did not mean to suggest that the area of scene was removed by not > mentioning it in the slides; the slides were more intended to explain > the workings of the coordinate system, not so much where the information > would be placed. > > -Brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Christian Groves > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 2:05 PM > To: clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal > > Hello Brian and Roni, > > On the single capture system my understand is that it would be > "optional" to send the capture co-ordinates. Is this correct? or? It > seems that Roni assumes from the document that "need not" means "shall > not" and Brian seems to assume Roni wants to say "shall send". > > The proposal doesn't mention "area of scene" which is in the current > framework document. Is the inference that this would be removed? > > Regards, Christian > > On 13/11/2011 2:45 AM, Roni Even wrote: >> >> Hi Brian, >> >> This proposal do not address the issue of knowing what is the gap >> between the capture views at the row where people sit which we >> discussed in the interim meeting unless the X is at the row of >> participants or it is clear where it is so that it can be calculated. >> If the origin is not known and the X axis position is not know it does > >> not provide the information. >> >> I think that it will not work when you have a system that can do both >> the regular view and multiview since if you do not know where the X >> axis is in relation to the row of participant the information will not > >> be enough to know which part of the row you see in the multiview if >> the regular view will each show two participants. >> >> Roni >> >> *From:*clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf > >> Of *Brian Baldino (bbaldino) >> *Sent:* Friday, November 11, 2011 9:00 PM >> *To:* Roni even; clue@ietf.org >> *Subject:* Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal >> >> Hey Roni, inline. >> >> *From:*Roni even [mailto:Even.roni@huawei.com] >> *Sent:* Friday, November 11, 2011 10:35 AM >> *To:* Brian Baldino (bbaldino); clue@ietf.org >> *Subject:* RE: CLUE Coordinate system proposal >> >> Hi Brian, >> >> I think that in order to agree we need first to agree on what are the >> co-ordinates used for. >> >> I am not sure why a one capture device TP system will not send >> co-ordinates if they can be used to scale to real size and maybe if >> real co-ordinates (mm) are used can also provide relative scaling when > >> composing a mixed video. >> >> */[BB] I don't believe it's safe to assume that all devices will even >> be able to know their geometry, so I don't think it's fair to require >> that they send coordinates expressed in real-world dimensions./* >> >> As for the origin, again, what is the use here. I am also wondering if > >> you supply X co-ordinates with no other information where in the room >> are they relating to. I think I am OK with the concept as long as it >> will be clear that when you provide only x co-ordinates they describe >> the line of the people in front of the camera (Probably a straight >> line between the two extreme people). >> >> */[BB] Not sure I follow all of this, but, the proposal does not allow > >> for expressing only a subset of dimensions when expressing the >> coordinates (some of the diagrams leave a dimension out for purposes >> of simplification, this is called out in the text). In an actual CLUE >> exchange each point would be expressed in all 3 dimensions (with the >> caveat that a 'NaN'-type value could be used, per some of Stephan's >> concerns). I also don't think there's anything in there that ties the >> X plane explicitly to something like a row of participants-I'm not >> sure that's an assumption we'd want to build in. /* >> >> Regards >> >> Roni >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *From:*clue-bounces@ietf.org [clue-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of >> Brian Baldino (bbaldino) [bbaldino@cisco.com] >> *Sent:* Friday, November 11, 2011 19:24 >> *To:* clue@ietf.org >> *Subject:* [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal >> >> Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system proposal which >> will be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give >> everyone a chance to read it over. >> >> -Brian >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Tue Nov 15 19:19:53 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70B5611E8088 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:19:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.496 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.496 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.103, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1+Tg0jU2pmHX for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:19:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ey0-f172.google.com (mail-ey0-f172.google.com [209.85.215.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDBFA21F905E for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by eyg24 with SMTP id 24so7375007eyg.31 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:19:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=K+i4Sg5a42esVFWKZEwl17wS5In+5e2POPFjgFZq6zw=; b=hcQmOfQdWIfK/UoqGfYeazKg7E5X+8enzX8Obu4BefMahbP6LHhezefvaOeVeWbVlm O4e82hWFcGbB6HOVbDmpLzknu7B8ZL2XwZz0l6Qz3HiyH06caeSFJ3diBJPVTJi3BaEv hij/802WpgiXA2jzkspoN6ssOn8DZTqynpdzY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.7.66 with SMTP id h2mr6687391oba.14.1321413587809; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:19:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.159.73 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:19:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4ebe951b.a87a440a.7d22.ffffd092@mx.google.com> <4EC2E224.40805@nteczone.com> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 22:19:47 -0500 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: "Brian Baldino (bbaldino)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 03:19:53 -0000 On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:01 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > Here are two ideas on coordinates. > > First : Our coordinates are obviously {Width, Height, Depth}, which we > can shorten to {x,y,z}. I think that that is much more mnemonic. > > Second : That there be a variable, let's call it Coordinate_Type, with > the following possible values > > Coordinate_Type =3D "Known" - values are in mm, as either measured or > built into the system. > > Coordinate_Type =3D "Unknown" - values are quoted as in mm, but that is > purely nominal and the scale is unknown. For example, a mobile device > might report > > Width =3D "500" mm, but that is just a nominal value, the actual depth > might be something different. > > That would, BTW, allow consumers to adjust scale, maybe even on the > fly (by, say, detecting faces and scaling the image accordingly). > > In this case, e.g., two captures with Width=3D{0,250} and > Width=3D{250,500} would imply captures that abut each other, and another > with Width=3D{0,500} would completely encompass the first two in the > horizontal. You just wouldn't know the actual scale. > > And, finally, > > Coordinate_Type =3D "NoScale" - No scale is implied. All that is meant > that a coordinate of N+X is further {to the left, deeper into the > audience, higher} > than a coordinate of N, for X > 0. > > NoScale should imply reflexivity, however, so that =A0two captures with > Width=3D{0,250} and Width=3D{251,252} would still imply captures that abu= t > each other, and another with Width=3D{0,251} would completely encompass typo s/251/252/ > the first two in the horizontal. The difference is that it would not > be proper to say anything =A0about the relative size of the two > captures, except that they do not abut each other. (This might easily > arise in a MCU setting, where two inputs use radically different > Virtual coordinate assignments.) > > I believe that these 3 cases capture all of the use cases I have heard > in our various meetings. Did I miss any ? > > Note that Coordinate_Type =3D "Known" can be treated as Coordinate_Type > =3D "Unknown", and Coordinate_Type =3D "Unknown" can be > treated as Coordinate_Type =3D "NoScale", so that composite images > should take the lowest coordinate type of any image in the composite. > > Regards > Marshall > > > > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 6:17 PM, Brian Baldino (bbaldino) > wrote: >> Hey Christian, >> The slides/doc refer to the coordinates being optional, so a single >> capture device need not provide coordinates but could if it so wished >> (e.g. if it wanted to give the other side a sense of its real-world >> dimensions). >> >> I did not mean to suggest that the area of scene was removed by not >> mentioning it in the slides; the slides were more intended to explain >> the workings of the coordinate system, not so much where the information >> would be placed. >> >> -Brian >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Christian Groves >> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 2:05 PM >> To: clue@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal >> >> Hello Brian and Roni, >> >> On the single capture system my understand is that it would be >> "optional" to send the capture co-ordinates. Is this correct? or? It >> seems that Roni assumes from the document that "need not" means "shall >> not" and Brian seems to assume Roni wants to say "shall send". >> >> The proposal doesn't mention "area of scene" which is in the current >> framework document. Is the inference that this would be removed? >> >> Regards, Christian >> >> On 13/11/2011 2:45 AM, Roni Even wrote: >>> >>> Hi Brian, >>> >>> This proposal do not address the issue of knowing what is the gap >>> between the capture views at the row where people sit which we >>> discussed in the interim meeting unless the X is at the row of >>> participants or it is clear where it is so that it can be calculated. >>> If the origin is not known and the X axis position is not know it does >> >>> not provide the information. >>> >>> I think that it will not work when you have a system that can do both >>> the regular view and multiview since if you do not know where the X >>> axis is in relation to the row of participant the information will not >> >>> be enough to know which part of the row you see in the multiview if >>> the regular view will each show two participants. >>> >>> Roni >>> >>> *From:*clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf >> >>> Of *Brian Baldino (bbaldino) >>> *Sent:* Friday, November 11, 2011 9:00 PM >>> *To:* Roni even; clue@ietf.org >>> *Subject:* Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal >>> >>> Hey Roni, inline. >>> >>> *From:*Roni even [mailto:Even.roni@huawei.com] >>> *Sent:* Friday, November 11, 2011 10:35 AM >>> *To:* Brian Baldino (bbaldino); clue@ietf.org >>> *Subject:* RE: CLUE Coordinate system proposal >>> >>> Hi Brian, >>> >>> I think that in order to agree we need first to agree on what are the >>> co-ordinates used for. >>> >>> I am not sure why a one capture device TP system will not send >>> co-ordinates if they can be used to scale to real size and maybe if >>> real co-ordinates (mm) are used can also provide relative scaling when >> >>> composing a mixed video. >>> >>> */[BB] I don't believe it's safe to assume that all devices will even >>> be able to know their geometry, so I don't think it's fair to require >>> that they send coordinates expressed in real-world dimensions./* >>> >>> As for the origin, again, what is the use here. I am also wondering if >> >>> you supply X co-ordinates with no other information where in the room >>> are they relating to. I think I am OK with the concept as long as it >>> will be clear that when you provide only x co-ordinates they describe >>> the line of the people in front of the camera (Probably a straight >>> line between the two extreme people). >>> >>> */[BB] Not sure I follow all of this, but, the proposal does not allow >> >>> for expressing only a subset of dimensions when expressing the >>> coordinates (some of the diagrams leave a dimension out for purposes >>> of simplification, this is called out in the text). In an actual CLUE >>> exchange each point would be expressed in all 3 dimensions (with the >>> caveat that a 'NaN'-type value could be used, per some of Stephan's >>> concerns). I also don't think there's anything in there that ties the >>> X plane explicitly to something like a row of participants-I'm not >>> sure that's an assumption we'd want to build in. /* >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Roni >>> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:*clue-bounces@ietf.org [clue-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of >>> Brian Baldino (bbaldino) [bbaldino@cisco.com] >>> *Sent:* Friday, November 11, 2011 19:24 >>> *To:* clue@ietf.org >>> *Subject:* [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal >>> >>> Attached is the doc describing the coordinate system proposal which >>> will be presented next week; wanted to send it out now to give >>> everyone a chance to read it over. >>> >>> -Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> clue mailing list >>> clue@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> > From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com Tue Nov 15 20:48:25 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 720BA11E80CC; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:48:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.99 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.99 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.841, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XdkBB-PIv-5I; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:48:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vw0-f44.google.com (mail-vw0-f44.google.com [209.85.212.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F058411E80AA; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:48:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws16 with SMTP id 16so65746vws.31 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:48:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZYfH1+OJQNTrTQ/6HvZq5zkOBRgALINGA6XuGv4eTZ8=; b=pWXpTyjXJtY2SX845/Dy6IiIo+Z9F60L6hOmCUYDhVz6b3XrtWCnisiUo1YCZj1Z9c 7XK3CVLDOV2E9vRz8wD19/8dP+DQf++KHMy2JEjRHQwZz+iZYaJqS/Vp3jHLsV41AQ7x +Vvi5cAL3HzQW4NEd6V/ujKEuFQyzU8GhXLnA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.34.207 with SMTP id b15mr48039916vdj.19.1321418893726; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:48:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.175.131 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:48:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 22:48:13 -0600 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: CLUE , rtcweb@ietf.org, avt@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Big5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [clue] Room change for Thursday's adhoc (new room TBA) X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 04:48:25 -0000 They usurped our room for this speaker. The room they offered in replacement only seats 20. I will let folks know as soon as I know if they can get us a bigger room. Regards, Mary. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ray Pelletier Date: Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:41 PM Subject: [82all] Thursday Lunch Speaker: Cloud Computing - Dr. Yu-Huang Chu (=A6=B6=B7=D4=B7=D7) To: 82all@ietf.org All; Speaker: Dr. Yu-Huang Chu (=A6=B6=B7=D4=B7=D7) Senior Researcher of the Broadband Network Laboratory, Telecommunication Laboratories Chunghwa Telecom Co., Ltd. Logistics: Room: 3F Banquet Thursday 17 November Time: 12:00 - 12:45 Note: Lunch will -not- be served Description of Topic: Cloud Computing service is focus on flexibility and elasticity. Tradition IP/Ethernet network is not easy to satisfy this requirements. Software Defined Network (SDN) can provide dynamic provision and modification for individual customer need. The smart network must provide on demand self-service, secure, unified management, and mobility. This talk covers SDN, OpenStack and LISP (Location ID Separation Protocol). These technologies would solve most of the smart network requirements. Besides, Open software will dominate the future network development of management system. OpenStack Software delivers a standard API between Application and infrastructure. It simplifies Cloud Computing management efforts. Speaker Bio: Dr. Michele Mosca obtained his DPhil in 1999 from the University of Oxford. He is co-founder and the Deputy Director of the Institute for Quantum Computing at the University of Waterloo, a Professor in the Department of Combinatorics & Optimization of the Faculty of Mathematics, and a founding member of Waterloo's Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics. Dr. Mosca has made major contributions to the theory and practice of quantum information processing.He has done pioneering work in quantum algorithms, including the development and application of the phase estimation approach to quantum algorithms. Together with collaborators at Oxford, he realized several of the first implementations of quantum algorithms using nuclear magnetic resonance. In the area of quantum cryptography, he and his collaborators developed fundamental methods for performing reliable computations with untrusted quantum apparatus, defined the notion of private quantum channels, and developed optimal methods for encrypting quantum information using classical keys. Dr. Mosca's work is published widely in top journals, and he co-authored the respected textbook "An Introduction to Quantum Computing" (OUP). Dr. Mosca has won numerous academic awards and honours, including the Premier's Research Excellence Award (2000-2005), Fellow of the Canadian Institute for Advanced Research (CIFAR) since 2010, Canada Research Chair in Quantum Computation (2002-present), and 2010 Canada's Top 40 Under 40. _______________________________________________ 82all mailing list 82all@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/82all From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com Tue Nov 15 21:04:36 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FDF71F0CEE; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:04:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.195 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.195 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.404, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yPMOBNbPBqRM; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:04:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vw0-f44.google.com (mail-vw0-f44.google.com [209.85.212.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9EB61F0CE8; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:04:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws16 with SMTP id 16so76839vws.31 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:04:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Mq4BKFaI+8Yzqygkomy2NXqBL48UaQPRNAdT4RX3IEc=; b=mcTYcgT+3+cStftUwTICdFquJGx1isfLy6cKyTMoq70YZvz7C0jEFhBArfTsyDj95a WnNQ9TqkvObt7GU1ykCK8Lkef2ZgE5iVKdeFHGxaWYhkkxqeVVyFoQXOpY6zKUid/HR+ o8Ts1rHlkhwkfT53FqqQtCVfgUOhBcOWCi9qo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.33.140 with SMTP id r12mr48673628vdi.36.1321419859936; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:04:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.175.131 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:04:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 23:04:19 -0600 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: CLUE , rtcweb@ietf.org, avt@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [clue] Room change for Thursday's adhoc - 101D X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 05:04:36 -0000 The meeting has been moved to 101D. This room does not officially allow food. People that eat lunch that might decide to discretely bring lunch into the room should make sure that they take any wrappings, containers, etc. back out of the room when they leave. Thanks, Mary. 2011/11/15 Mary Barnes : > They usurped our room for this speaker. =C2=A0The room they offered in > replacement only seats 20. =C2=A0I will let folks know as soon as I know = if > they can get us a bigger room. > > Regards, > Mary. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Ray Pelletier > Date: Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:41 PM > Subject: [82all] Thursday Lunch Speaker: Cloud Computing - Dr. > Yu-Huang Chu (=E6=9C=B1=E7=85=9C=E7=85=8C) > To: 82all@ietf.org > > > All; > > Speaker: > Dr. Yu-Huang Chu (=E6=9C=B1=E7=85=9C=E7=85=8C) > Senior Researcher of the Broadband Network Laboratory, > Telecommunication Laboratories Chunghwa Telecom Co., Ltd. > > Logistics: > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Room: =C2=A0 3F Banquet > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thursday =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A017 November > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Time: =C2=A0 12:00 - 12:45 > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Note: =C2=A0 Lunch will -not- be served > > Description of Topic: > > Cloud Computing service is focus on flexibility and elasticity. > Tradition IP/Ethernet network is not easy to satisfy this > requirements. Software Defined Network (SDN) can provide dynamic > provision and modification for individual customer need. The smart > network must provide on demand self-service, secure, unified > management, and mobility. This talk covers SDN, OpenStack and LISP > (Location ID Separation Protocol). These technologies would solve most > of the smart network requirements. Besides, Open software will > dominate the future network development of management system. > OpenStack Software delivers a standard API between Application and > infrastructure. It simplifies Cloud Computing management efforts. > > Speaker Bio: > > Dr. Michele Mosca obtained his DPhil in 1999 from the University of > Oxford. He is co-founder and the Deputy Director of the Institute for > Quantum Computing at the University of Waterloo, a Professor in the > Department of Combinatorics & Optimization of the Faculty of > Mathematics, and a founding member of Waterloo's Perimeter Institute > for Theoretical Physics. > > Dr. Mosca has made major contributions to the theory and practice of > quantum information processing.He has done pioneering work in quantum > algorithms, including the development and application of the phase > estimation approach to quantum algorithms. Together with collaborators > at Oxford, he realized several of the first implementations of quantum > algorithms using nuclear magnetic resonance. In the area of quantum > cryptography, he and his collaborators developed fundamental methods > for performing reliable computations with untrusted quantum apparatus, > defined the notion of private quantum channels, and developed optimal > methods for encrypting quantum information using classical keys. Dr. > Mosca's work is published widely in top journals, and he co-authored > the respected textbook "An Introduction to Quantum Computing" (OUP). > > Dr. Mosca has won numerous academic awards and honours, including the > Premier's Research Excellence Award (2000-2005), Fellow of the > Canadian Institute for Advanced Research (CIFAR) since 2010, Canada > Research Chair in Quantum Computation (2002-present), and 2010 > Canada's Top 40 Under 40. > _______________________________________________ > 82all mailing list > 82all@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/82all > From HKaplan@acmepacket.com Tue Nov 15 21:20:22 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9AD41F0C47; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:20:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.474 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.474 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.125, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LBrHCvRaa-PU; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:20:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from etmail.acmepacket.com (etmail.acmepacket.com [216.41.24.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 644EC21F90FD; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:20:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from MAIL2.acmepacket.com (10.0.0.22) by etmail.acmepacket.com (216.41.24.6) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.254.0; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 00:20:08 -0500 Received: from MAIL1.acmepacket.com ([169.254.1.232]) by Mail2.acmepacket.com ([169.254.2.157]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 00:20:07 -0500 From: Hadriel Kaplan To: Mary Barnes Thread-Topic: [AVTCORE] Room change for Thursday's adhoc - 101D Thread-Index: AQHMpB9mksrLwJgXZk28a+V//XhybA== Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 05:20:06 +0000 Message-ID: <3EF93494-EB9E-48A8-937E-0FAC7A44194B@acmepacket.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [216.41.24.34] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <11E87169561FAB439A4ACF6D7ADD6EB1@acmepacket.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAWE= X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:48:00 -0800 Cc: "" , CLUE , "" Subject: Re: [clue] [AVTCORE] Room change for Thursday's adhoc - 101D X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 05:20:22 -0000 DQpTbyBkb2VzIDEwMUQgb25seSBzaXQgMjAgcGVvcGxlPyAgSSBkb24ndCBoYXZlIGEgY3J5c3Rh bCBiYWxsLCBidXQgbXkgZ3Vlc3MgaXMgdGhhdCdzIG5vdCBnb2luZyB0byB3b3JrIGlmIGl0J3Mg b25seSAyMC4NCg0KLWhhZHJpZWwNCg0KDQpPbiBOb3YgMTYsIDIwMTEsIGF0IDEyOjA0IEFNLCBN 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d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby84MmFsbA0KPj4gDQo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IEF1ZGlvL1ZpZGVvIFRyYW5zcG9y dCBDb3JlIE1haW50ZW5hbmNlDQo+IGF2dEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9y Zy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2F2dA0KDQo= From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com Tue Nov 15 21:48:49 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B87CA21F91F3; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:48:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.205 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.205 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.394, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id isZdx+UYInq3; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:48:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vw0-f44.google.com (mail-vw0-f44.google.com [209.85.212.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67B021F9205; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:48:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by vws16 with SMTP id 16so108746vws.31 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:48:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pfUCKdKcK3kdZfIpQBKy/ixEWx2MU4PS4vKrD7R2XBY=; b=rKzm6Q+E33HPStEvS515LePk0hHZ7YqKQsB4LbgkfQGd0nqirWrgp6Cdilbys1EIhH NWYsxAjUxwNfXUXJ70ED6vNxTQ9SqCd1BhjKP9savSl7/pLb9pB82p0gXiK4taezECnI 4uxHFzoGtwFCC7TIw80GMbMciQrTMF+Egtklo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.34.207 with SMTP id b15mr48326332vdj.19.1321422524153; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:48:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.175.131 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:48:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <3EF93494-EB9E-48A8-937E-0FAC7A44194B@acmepacket.com> References: <3EF93494-EB9E-48A8-937E-0FAC7A44194B@acmepacket.com> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 23:48:44 -0600 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: Hadriel Kaplan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "" , CLUE , "" Subject: Re: [clue] [AVTCORE] Room change for Thursday's adhoc - 101D X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 05:48:49 -0000 No, I rejected the 20 seat room. This room is purported to hold 80. Mary. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:20 PM, Hadriel Kaplan w= rote: > > So does 101D only sit 20 people? =C2=A0I don't have a crystal ball, but m= y guess is that's not going to work if it's only 20. > > -hadriel > > > On Nov 16, 2011, at 12:04 AM, Mary Barnes wrote: > >> The meeting has been moved to 101D. =C2=A0This room does not officially >> allow food. People that eat lunch that might decide to discretely >> bring lunch into the room should make sure that they take any >> wrappings, containers, etc. back out of the room when they leave. >> >> Thanks, >> Mary. >> >> 2011/11/15 Mary Barnes : >>> They usurped our room for this speaker. =C2=A0The room they offered in >>> replacement only seats 20. =C2=A0I will let folks know as soon as I kno= w if >>> they can get us a bigger room. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Mary. >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: Ray Pelletier >>> Date: Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:41 PM >>> Subject: [82all] Thursday Lunch Speaker: Cloud Computing - Dr. >>> Yu-Huang Chu (=E6=9C=B1=E7=85=9C=E7=85=8C) >>> To: 82all@ietf.org >>> >>> >>> All; >>> >>> Speaker: >>> Dr. Yu-Huang Chu (=E6=9C=B1=E7=85=9C=E7=85=8C) >>> Senior Researcher of the Broadband Network Laboratory, >>> Telecommunication Laboratories Chunghwa Telecom Co., Ltd. >>> >>> Logistics: >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Room: =C2=A0 3F Banquet >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thursday =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A017 November >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Time: =C2=A0 12:00 - 12:45 >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Note: =C2=A0 Lunch will -not- be served >>> >>> Description of Topic: >>> >>> Cloud Computing service is focus on flexibility and elasticity. >>> Tradition IP/Ethernet network is not easy to satisfy this >>> requirements. Software Defined Network (SDN) can provide dynamic >>> provision and modification for individual customer need. The smart >>> network must provide on demand self-service, secure, unified >>> management, and mobility. This talk covers SDN, OpenStack and LISP >>> (Location ID Separation Protocol). These technologies would solve most >>> of the smart network requirements. Besides, Open software will >>> dominate the future network development of management system. >>> OpenStack Software delivers a standard API between Application and >>> infrastructure. It simplifies Cloud Computing management efforts. >>> >>> Speaker Bio: >>> >>> Dr. Michele Mosca obtained his DPhil in 1999 from the University of >>> Oxford. He is co-founder and the Deputy Director of the Institute for >>> Quantum Computing at the University of Waterloo, a Professor in the >>> Department of Combinatorics & Optimization of the Faculty of >>> Mathematics, and a founding member of Waterloo's Perimeter Institute >>> for Theoretical Physics. >>> >>> Dr. Mosca has made major contributions to the theory and practice of >>> quantum information processing.He has done pioneering work in quantum >>> algorithms, including the development and application of the phase >>> estimation approach to quantum algorithms. Together with collaborators >>> at Oxford, he realized several of the first implementations of quantum >>> algorithms using nuclear magnetic resonance. In the area of quantum >>> cryptography, he and his collaborators developed fundamental methods >>> for performing reliable computations with untrusted quantum apparatus, >>> defined the notion of private quantum channels, and developed optimal >>> methods for encrypting quantum information using classical keys. Dr. >>> Mosca's work is published widely in top journals, and he co-authored >>> the respected textbook "An Introduction to Quantum Computing" (OUP). >>> >>> Dr. Mosca has won numerous academic awards and honours, including the >>> Premier's Research Excellence Award (2000-2005), Fellow of the >>> Canadian Institute for Advanced Research (CIFAR) since 2010, Canada >>> Research Chair in Quantum Computation (2002-present), and 2010 >>> Canada's Top 40 Under 40. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> 82all mailing list >>> 82all@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/82all >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance >> avt@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt > > From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Wed Nov 16 01:02:03 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27DD621F9558 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 01:02:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Awq+UV7nBfX7 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 01:02:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A34E21F9557 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 01:02:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta16.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.72]) by qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id xl1N1h0041ZMdJ4A4l1vZH; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:01:55 +0000 Received: from dhcp-16f3.meeting.ietf.org ([130.129.22.243]) by omta16.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id xkvt1h00s5EhBnE8ckvwZW; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 08:56:01 +0000 Message-ID: <4EC37BFF.70903@alum.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:01:51 +0800 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clue@ietf.org References: <4ebe951b.a87a440a.7d22.ffffd092@mx.google.com> <4EC2E224.40805@nteczone.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:02:03 -0000 Clarification please: On 11/16/11 11:19 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >> In this case, e.g., two captures with Width={0,250} and >> Width={250,500} would imply captures that abut each other, and another >> with Width={0,500} would completely encompass the first two in the >> horizontal. You just wouldn't know the actual scale. >> >> And, finally, >> >> Coordinate_Type = "NoScale" - No scale is implied. All that is meant >> that a coordinate of N+X is further {to the left, deeper into the >> audience, higher} >> than a coordinate of N, for X> 0. >> >> NoScale should imply reflexivity, however, so that two captures with >> Width={0,250} and Width={251,252} would still imply captures that abut >> each other, and another with Width={0,251} would completely encompass > > typo > > s/251/252/ > >> the first two in the horizontal. The difference is that it would not >> be proper to say anything about the relative size of the two >> captures, except that they do not abut each other. (This might easily >> arise in a MCU setting, where two inputs use radically different >> Virtual coordinate assignments.) Are these *real* numbers? Or integers? If integers, are they open or closed intervals? In one example {0,250} is adjacent to {250,500} in the other, {0,250} is adjacent to {252,252}. You can't have it both ways. Since they can be mm, I presume these are real numbers, and so the latter set is is not really adjacent. (And {252,252} seems like an uninteresting capture.) Thanks, Paul From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Wed Nov 16 01:22:06 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A313E21F94D3 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 01:22:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.102, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TvJErMtrozPI for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 01:22:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-dy0-f44.google.com (mail-dy0-f44.google.com [209.85.220.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B30321F94AF for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 01:22:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by dyl37 with SMTP id 37so7778dyl.31 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 01:22:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+vGcgIR0TbRdE2ZtGil+QbIUKLtK9JU4maw3GXR5gUg=; b=B5BLJLyFi2Y4g+zHz6Ti3vrsHKfKKZGwRjE3WthrULazBdxs44/HnYmfq6FVRINSN5 Sg65GwJMX5OexlGQSEDStc0X7mfWMI5Gst9AaE7Yywy/nIWClFS0PXPnA/4QpnXt3zDs 0nEsg6wVnAs1259fiv+OjXhrqN/Rms2J4lQwU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.124.33 with SMTP id mf1mr3302354obb.24.1321435323867; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 01:22:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.159.73 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 01:22:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4EC37BFF.70903@alum.mit.edu> References: <4ebe951b.a87a440a.7d22.ffffd092@mx.google.com> <4EC2E224.40805@nteczone.com> <4EC37BFF.70903@alum.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 04:22:03 -0500 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: Paul Kyzivat Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:22:06 -0000 On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:01 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote= : > Clarification please: > > On 11/16/11 11:19 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > >>> In this case, e.g., two captures with Width=3D{0,250} and >>> Width=3D{250,500} would imply captures that abut each other, and anothe= r >>> with Width=3D{0,500} would completely encompass the first two in the >>> horizontal. You just wouldn't know the actual scale. >>> >>> And, finally, >>> >>> Coordinate_Type =3D "NoScale" - No scale is implied. All that is meant >>> that a coordinate of N+X is further {to the left, deeper into the >>> audience, higher} >>> than a coordinate of N, for X> =A00. >>> >>> NoScale should imply reflexivity, however, so that =A0two captures with >>> Width=3D{0,250} and Width=3D{251,252} would still imply captures that a= but >>> each other, and another with Width=3D{0,251} would completely encompass >> >> typo >> >> s/251/252/ >> >>> the first two in the horizontal. The difference is that it would not >>> be proper to say anything =A0about the relative size of the two >>> captures, except that they do not abut each other. (This might easily >>> arise in a MCU setting, where two inputs use radically different >>> Virtual coordinate assignments.) > > Are these *real* numbers? Or integers? If integers, are they open or clos= ed > intervals? > That is a good question. I believe that integers are generally assumed, and that one reason why mm rather than m are used is to allow for integer variables. > In one example {0,250} is adjacent to {250,500} > > in the other, {0,250} is adjacent to {252,252}. > > You can't have it both ways. Since they can be mm, I presume these are re= al > numbers, and so the latter set is is not really adjacent. > > (And {252,252} seems like an uninteresting capture.) Sorry, {0,250} and {250,252} was what was meant. The point was that - with virtual coordinates there is no real difference that can be derived _in scale_ between {0,250} and {250,252}. They are arbitrary choices EXCEPT that - {0,250} and {250,252} implies adjacency while {0,250} and {251,252} does not and, of course, {0,250} is to the left of {250,252} Regards Marshall > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Thanks, > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Paul > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Wed Nov 16 01:29:54 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80B1821F9525 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 01:29:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.463 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.463 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.136, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id imB-XCkGf23t for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 01:29:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.32]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE83021F94F0 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 01:29:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.12]) by qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id xlTo1h0020FhH24A3lVifF; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:29:42 +0000 Received: from dhcp-16f3.meeting.ietf.org ([130.129.22.243]) by omta08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id xlUk1h00S5EhBnE8UlUnz1; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:28:57 +0000 Message-ID: <4EC38279.7020109@alum.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:29:29 +0800 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marshall Eubanks References: <4ebe951b.a87a440a.7d22.ffffd092@mx.google.com> <4EC2E224.40805@nteczone.com> <4EC37BFF.70903@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:29:54 -0000 On 11/16/11 5:22 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:01 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >> Clarification please: >> >> On 11/16/11 11:19 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >> >>>> In this case, e.g., two captures with Width={0,250} and >>>> Width={250,500} would imply captures that abut each other, and another >>>> with Width={0,500} would completely encompass the first two in the >>>> horizontal. You just wouldn't know the actual scale. >>>> >>>> And, finally, >>>> >>>> Coordinate_Type = "NoScale" - No scale is implied. All that is meant >>>> that a coordinate of N+X is further {to the left, deeper into the >>>> audience, higher} >>>> than a coordinate of N, for X> 0. >>>> >>>> NoScale should imply reflexivity, however, so that two captures with >>>> Width={0,250} and Width={251,252} would still imply captures that abut >>>> each other, and another with Width={0,251} would completely encompass >>> >>> typo >>> >>> s/251/252/ >>> >>>> the first two in the horizontal. The difference is that it would not >>>> be proper to say anything about the relative size of the two >>>> captures, except that they do not abut each other. (This might easily >>>> arise in a MCU setting, where two inputs use radically different >>>> Virtual coordinate assignments.) >> >> Are these *real* numbers? Or integers? If integers, are they open or closed >> intervals? >> > > That is a good question. I believe that integers are generally > assumed, and that one reason why > mm rather than m are used is to allow for integer variables. > > >> In one example {0,250} is adjacent to {250,500} >> >> in the other, {0,250} is adjacent to {252,252}. >> >> You can't have it both ways. Since they can be mm, I presume these are real >> numbers, and so the latter set is is not really adjacent. >> >> (And {252,252} seems like an uninteresting capture.) > > Sorry, > > {0,250} and {250,252} was what was meant. The point was that > > - with virtual coordinates there is no real difference that can be > derived _in scale_ between {0,250} and {250,252}. > They are arbitrary choices EXCEPT that > > - {0,250} and {250,252} implies adjacency while > {0,250} and {251,252} does not > > and, of course, {0,250} is to the left of {250,252} So then these are really [0,250), [250, 252) to have adjacency without overlap? Thanks, Paul From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Wed Nov 16 02:20:46 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E63C621F9489 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 02:20:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.101, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uDtyFBzHrMmy for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 02:20:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-fx0-f44.google.com (mail-fx0-f44.google.com [209.85.161.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA8F21F9486 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 02:20:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by faap16 with SMTP id p16so1497634faa.31 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 02:20:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gLtUoiF6s4jCF9Pz2ofecYAMu8hPLjlE0//a8Z8pAjU=; b=E71NRSTB0kHLh3EY4nn2b/vemil3yweEKoIGTGSPtZyiwLzo3/kHjmPvupHi6M2RXV S2AAlFjeaiPpmLJIYjoCO+6ie3yrSN/Pe5+Wbq9U9m4FX9r38XR6DQMAZd8CeXlouAAk VkN4ffClZCAB/qSj0taZqj06+Jg2TpWFR2keY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.7.66 with SMTP id h2mr6929187oba.14.1321438843159; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 02:20:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.159.73 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 02:20:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4EC38279.7020109@alum.mit.edu> References: <4ebe951b.a87a440a.7d22.ffffd092@mx.google.com> <4EC2E224.40805@nteczone.com> <4EC37BFF.70903@alum.mit.edu> <4EC38279.7020109@alum.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 05:20:42 -0500 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: Paul Kyzivat Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:20:47 -0000 On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:29 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote= : > On 11/16/11 5:22 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >> >> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:01 AM, Paul Kyzivat >> =A0wrote: >>> >>> Clarification please: >>> >>> On 11/16/11 11:19 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >>> >>>>> In this case, e.g., two captures with Width=3D{0,250} and >>>>> Width=3D{250,500} would imply captures that abut each other, and anot= her >>>>> with Width=3D{0,500} would completely encompass the first two in the >>>>> horizontal. You just wouldn't know the actual scale. >>>>> >>>>> And, finally, >>>>> >>>>> Coordinate_Type =3D "NoScale" - No scale is implied. All that is mean= t >>>>> that a coordinate of N+X is further {to the left, deeper into the >>>>> audience, higher} >>>>> than a coordinate of N, for X> =A0 =A00. >>>>> >>>>> NoScale should imply reflexivity, however, so that =A0two captures wi= th >>>>> Width=3D{0,250} and Width=3D{251,252} would still imply captures that= abut >>>>> each other, and another with Width=3D{0,251} would completely encompa= ss >>>> >>>> typo >>>> >>>> s/251/252/ >>>> >>>>> the first two in the horizontal. The difference is that it would not >>>>> be proper to say anything =A0about the relative size of the two >>>>> captures, except that they do not abut each other. (This might easily >>>>> arise in a MCU setting, where two inputs use radically different >>>>> Virtual coordinate assignments.) >>> >>> Are these *real* numbers? Or integers? If integers, are they open or >>> closed >>> intervals? >>> >> >> That is a good question. I believe that integers are generally >> assumed, and that one reason why >> mm rather than m are used is to allow for integer variables. >> >> >>> In one example {0,250} is adjacent to {250,500} >>> >>> in the other, {0,250} is adjacent to {252,252}. >>> >>> You can't have it both ways. Since they can be mm, I presume these are >>> real >>> numbers, and so the latter set is is not really adjacent. >>> >>> (And {252,252} seems like an uninteresting capture.) >> >> Sorry, >> >> {0,250} and {250,252} was what was meant. The point was that >> >> - with virtual coordinates there is no real difference that can be >> derived _in scale_ between {0,250} and {250,252}. >> They are arbitrary choices EXCEPT that >> >> - {0,250} and {250,252} implies adjacency while >> =A0 {0,250} and {251,252} does not >> >> and, of course, =A0{0,250} is to the left of {250,252} > > So then these are really [0,250), [250, 252) to have adjacency without > overlap? That is how I would interpret virtual coordinates. {M,N}, {N, P} M < N < P implies adjacency, while {M,N}, {P, Q} M < N < P < Q implies no adjacency while both imply ordering. (By adjacency I mean being contiguous). My assumption here is that virtual coordinates are likely to be of the form {1}, {2}, {3} to imply left, middle, right screens. Regards Marshall > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Thanks, > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Paul > From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Wed Nov 16 13:48:27 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA73B21F8EC9 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 13:48:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.492 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.492 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.107, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gwuMnubPVYFU for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 13:48:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5ED621F8E88 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 13:48:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.19]) by qmta05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id xxln1h0030QkzPwA5xoJjn; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 21:48:18 +0000 Received: from dhcp-471c.meeting.ietf.org ([130.129.71.28]) by omta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id xxoP1h00o0ccXAy8NxoSc1; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 21:48:33 +0000 Message-ID: <4EC42F9D.7040109@alum.mit.edu> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 05:48:13 +0800 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marshall Eubanks References: <4ebe951b.a87a440a.7d22.ffffd092@mx.google.com> <4EC2E224.40805@nteczone.com> <4EC37BFF.70903@alum.mit.edu> <4EC38279.7020109@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 21:48:27 -0000 On 11/16/11 6:20 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:29 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >> On 11/16/11 5:22 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:01 AM, Paul Kyzivat >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Clarification please: >>>> >>>> On 11/16/11 11:19 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >>>> >>>>>> In this case, e.g., two captures with Width={0,250} and >>>>>> Width={250,500} would imply captures that abut each other, and another >>>>>> with Width={0,500} would completely encompass the first two in the >>>>>> horizontal. You just wouldn't know the actual scale. >>>>>> >>>>>> And, finally, >>>>>> >>>>>> Coordinate_Type = "NoScale" - No scale is implied. All that is meant >>>>>> that a coordinate of N+X is further {to the left, deeper into the >>>>>> audience, higher} >>>>>> than a coordinate of N, for X> 0. >>>>>> >>>>>> NoScale should imply reflexivity, however, so that two captures with >>>>>> Width={0,250} and Width={251,252} would still imply captures that abut >>>>>> each other, and another with Width={0,251} would completely encompass >>>>> >>>>> typo >>>>> >>>>> s/251/252/ >>>>> >>>>>> the first two in the horizontal. The difference is that it would not >>>>>> be proper to say anything about the relative size of the two >>>>>> captures, except that they do not abut each other. (This might easily >>>>>> arise in a MCU setting, where two inputs use radically different >>>>>> Virtual coordinate assignments.) >>>> >>>> Are these *real* numbers? Or integers? If integers, are they open or >>>> closed >>>> intervals? >>>> >>> >>> That is a good question. I believe that integers are generally >>> assumed, and that one reason why >>> mm rather than m are used is to allow for integer variables. >>> >>> >>>> In one example {0,250} is adjacent to {250,500} >>>> >>>> in the other, {0,250} is adjacent to {252,252}. >>>> >>>> You can't have it both ways. Since they can be mm, I presume these are >>>> real >>>> numbers, and so the latter set is is not really adjacent. >>>> >>>> (And {252,252} seems like an uninteresting capture.) >>> >>> Sorry, >>> >>> {0,250} and {250,252} was what was meant. The point was that >>> >>> - with virtual coordinates there is no real difference that can be >>> derived _in scale_ between {0,250} and {250,252}. >>> They are arbitrary choices EXCEPT that >>> >>> - {0,250} and {250,252} implies adjacency while >>> {0,250} and {251,252} does not >>> >>> and, of course, {0,250} is to the left of {250,252} >> >> So then these are really [0,250), [250, 252) to have adjacency without >> overlap? > > That is how I would interpret virtual coordinates. > > {M,N}, {N, P} M< N< P implies adjacency, while > > {M,N}, {P, Q} M< N< P< Q implies no adjacency > > while both imply ordering. (By adjacency I mean being contiguous). OK. So these are just readings off a metric tape measure, to a resolution of mm. And for virtual ones they are readings off a tape measure with unknown resolution. Thanks, Paul From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Wed Nov 16 14:10:55 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA75821F8EE4 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 14:10:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id davQ2r+r54Kv for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 14:10:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-fx0-f44.google.com (mail-fx0-f44.google.com [209.85.161.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C4EA21F8C07 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 14:10:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by faap16 with SMTP id p16so2585700faa.31 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 14:10:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5la1LF9ycUdNYUT2vmdmSyBN/EXX/V3NqZcBtHFSEAE=; b=ulGqXrpoFUvQipLrbbkJvADuTvnpG2Cx9gUCM2At3z0QV7nHjBeHObYCe/sIhj+9li HyOrFMR4q/1ZbTs8xR3Cdg4Z3+uqcidBgpBqL+nvhnY4X6fEO1RnQwPUxDc8Pic/6UYm bA3rONhp/P6lEUTyqf9b1oUK8+t5UCalDq7SE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.21.134 with SMTP id v6mr8936872obe.64.1321481447990; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 14:10:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.159.73 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 14:10:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4EC42F9D.7040109@alum.mit.edu> References: <4ebe951b.a87a440a.7d22.ffffd092@mx.google.com> <4EC2E224.40805@nteczone.com> <4EC37BFF.70903@alum.mit.edu> <4EC38279.7020109@alum.mit.edu> <4EC42F9D.7040109@alum.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:10:47 -0500 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: Paul Kyzivat Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 22:10:56 -0000 On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote= : > On 11/16/11 6:20 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >> >> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:29 AM, Paul Kyzivat >> =A0wrote: >>> >>> On 11/16/11 5:22 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:01 AM, Paul Kyzivat >>>> =A0wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Clarification please: >>>>> >>>>> On 11/16/11 11:19 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> In this case, e.g., two captures with Width=3D{0,250} and >>>>>>> Width=3D{250,500} would imply captures that abut each other, and >>>>>>> another >>>>>>> with Width=3D{0,500} would completely encompass the first two in th= e >>>>>>> horizontal. You just wouldn't know the actual scale. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And, finally, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Coordinate_Type =3D "NoScale" - No scale is implied. All that is me= ant >>>>>>> that a coordinate of N+X is further {to the left, deeper into the >>>>>>> audience, higher} >>>>>>> than a coordinate of N, for X> =A0 =A0 =A00. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> NoScale should imply reflexivity, however, so that =A0two captures = with >>>>>>> Width=3D{0,250} and Width=3D{251,252} would still imply captures th= at >>>>>>> abut >>>>>>> each other, and another with Width=3D{0,251} would completely encom= pass >>>>>> >>>>>> typo >>>>>> >>>>>> s/251/252/ >>>>>> >>>>>>> the first two in the horizontal. The difference is that it would no= t >>>>>>> be proper to say anything =A0about the relative size of the two >>>>>>> captures, except that they do not abut each other. (This might easi= ly >>>>>>> arise in a MCU setting, where two inputs use radically different >>>>>>> Virtual coordinate assignments.) >>>>> >>>>> Are these *real* numbers? Or integers? If integers, are they open or >>>>> closed >>>>> intervals? >>>>> >>>> >>>> That is a good question. I believe that integers are generally >>>> assumed, and that one reason why >>>> mm rather than m are used is to allow for integer variables. >>>> >>>> >>>>> In one example {0,250} is adjacent to {250,500} >>>>> >>>>> in the other, {0,250} is adjacent to {252,252}. >>>>> >>>>> You can't have it both ways. Since they can be mm, I presume these ar= e >>>>> real >>>>> numbers, and so the latter set is is not really adjacent. >>>>> >>>>> (And {252,252} seems like an uninteresting capture.) >>>> >>>> Sorry, >>>> >>>> {0,250} and {250,252} was what was meant. The point was that >>>> >>>> - with virtual coordinates there is no real difference that can be >>>> derived _in scale_ between {0,250} and {250,252}. >>>> They are arbitrary choices EXCEPT that >>>> >>>> - {0,250} and {250,252} implies adjacency while >>>> =A0 {0,250} and {251,252} does not >>>> >>>> and, of course, =A0{0,250} is to the left of {250,252} >>> >>> So then these are really [0,250), [250, 252) to have adjacency without >>> overlap? >> >> That is how I would interpret virtual coordinates. >> >> {M,N}, {N, P} =A0 M< =A0N< =A0P implies adjacency, while >> >> {M,N}, {P, Q} =A0 M< =A0N< =A0P< =A0Q implies no adjacency >> >> while both imply ordering. (By adjacency I mean being contiguous). > > OK. So these are just readings off a metric tape measure, to a resolution= of > mm. And for virtual ones they are readings off a tape measure with unknow= n > resolution. Yes. I believe this captures the discussion that we have been having, in person and on this list. Marshall > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Thanks, > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Paul > From Christian.Groves@nteczone.com Wed Nov 16 15:43:42 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D199521F8BE8 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:43:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.48 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.48 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.119, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HMx9IO-lCwD3 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:43:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net (ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net [150.101.137.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8EE121F8BDC for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:43:41 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApMBANVIxE520Tr5/2dsb2JhbAAMNqx8AQEBBAEBATUbGwoRCxgJFg8JAwIBAgEVMBMGAgEBiAa1UwSKFwSmRA Received: from ppp118-209-58-249.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net (HELO [127.0.0.1]) ([118.209.58.249]) by ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 17 Nov 2011 10:13:40 +1030 Message-ID: <4EC44AA7.4030303@nteczone.com> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 10:43:35 +1100 From: Christian Groves User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clue@ietf.org References: <4ebe951b.a87a440a.7d22.ffffd092@mx.google.com> <4EC2E224.40805@nteczone.com> <4EC37BFF.70903@alum.mit.edu> <4EC38279.7020109@alum.mit.edu> <4EC42F9D.7040109@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 23:43:42 -0000 "And for virtual ones they are readings off a tape measure with unknown resolution." Just to clarify is it really "unknown and possibly changing resolution"? For me a tape measure implies a constant scale even if you don't know what it is. Maybe an elastic tape measure? :-) Regards, Christian On 17/11/2011 9:10 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >> On 11/16/11 6:20 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:29 AM, Paul Kyzivat >>> wrote: >>>> On 11/16/11 5:22 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:01 AM, Paul Kyzivat >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Clarification please: >>>>>> >>>>>> On 11/16/11 11:19 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>> In this case, e.g., two captures with Width={0,250} and >>>>>>>> Width={250,500} would imply captures that abut each other, and >>>>>>>> another >>>>>>>> with Width={0,500} would completely encompass the first two in the >>>>>>>> horizontal. You just wouldn't know the actual scale. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And, finally, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Coordinate_Type = "NoScale" - No scale is implied. All that is meant >>>>>>>> that a coordinate of N+X is further {to the left, deeper into the >>>>>>>> audience, higher} >>>>>>>> than a coordinate of N, for X> 0. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> NoScale should imply reflexivity, however, so that two captures with >>>>>>>> Width={0,250} and Width={251,252} would still imply captures that >>>>>>>> abut >>>>>>>> each other, and another with Width={0,251} would completely encompass >>>>>>> typo >>>>>>> >>>>>>> s/251/252/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the first two in the horizontal. The difference is that it would not >>>>>>>> be proper to say anything about the relative size of the two >>>>>>>> captures, except that they do not abut each other. (This might easily >>>>>>>> arise in a MCU setting, where two inputs use radically different >>>>>>>> Virtual coordinate assignments.) >>>>>> Are these *real* numbers? Or integers? If integers, are they open or >>>>>> closed >>>>>> intervals? >>>>>> >>>>> That is a good question. I believe that integers are generally >>>>> assumed, and that one reason why >>>>> mm rather than m are used is to allow for integer variables. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> In one example {0,250} is adjacent to {250,500} >>>>>> >>>>>> in the other, {0,250} is adjacent to {252,252}. >>>>>> >>>>>> You can't have it both ways. Since they can be mm, I presume these are >>>>>> real >>>>>> numbers, and so the latter set is is not really adjacent. >>>>>> >>>>>> (And {252,252} seems like an uninteresting capture.) >>>>> Sorry, >>>>> >>>>> {0,250} and {250,252} was what was meant. The point was that >>>>> >>>>> - with virtual coordinates there is no real difference that can be >>>>> derived _in scale_ between {0,250} and {250,252}. >>>>> They are arbitrary choices EXCEPT that >>>>> >>>>> - {0,250} and {250,252} implies adjacency while >>>>> {0,250} and {251,252} does not >>>>> >>>>> and, of course, {0,250} is to the left of {250,252} >>>> So then these are really [0,250), [250, 252) to have adjacency without >>>> overlap? >>> That is how I would interpret virtual coordinates. >>> >>> {M,N}, {N, P} M< N< P implies adjacency, while >>> >>> {M,N}, {P, Q} M< N< P< Q implies no adjacency >>> >>> while both imply ordering. (By adjacency I mean being contiguous). >> OK. So these are just readings off a metric tape measure, to a resolution of >> mm. And for virtual ones they are readings off a tape measure with unknown >> resolution. > Yes. I believe this captures the discussion that we have been having, > in person and on this list. > > Marshall > >> Thanks, >> Paul >> > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Wed Nov 16 16:54:52 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB9CC11E8086 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:54:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OkVTcNgJxnW3 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:54:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.59.243]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D82911E8099 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:54:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta04.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.35]) by qmta13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id y0nv1h0020ldTLk5D0ul1n; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 00:54:45 +0000 Received: from dhcp-16f3.meeting.ietf.org ([130.129.22.243]) by omta04.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id y0ua1h0065EhBnE3Q0ud1l; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 00:54:43 +0000 Message-ID: <4EC45B49.4000504@alum.mit.edu> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:54:33 +0800 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clue@ietf.org References: <4ebe951b.a87a440a.7d22.ffffd092@mx.google.com> <4EC2E224.40805@nteczone.com> <4EC37BFF.70903@alum.mit.edu> <4EC38279.7020109@alum.mit.edu> <4EC42F9D.7040109@alum.mit.edu> <4EC44AA7.4030303@nteczone.com> In-Reply-To: <4EC44AA7.4030303@nteczone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 00:54:52 -0000 On 11/17/11 7:43 AM, Christian Groves wrote: > "And for virtual ones they are readings off a tape measure with unknown > resolution." > > Just to clarify is it really "unknown and possibly changing resolution"? > For me a tape measure implies a constant scale even if you don't know > what it is. Maybe an elastic tape measure? :-) I think that each capture set has one tape measure of unknown but fixed scale. Thanks, Paul > Regards, Christian > > On 17/11/2011 9:10 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Paul Kyzivat >> wrote: >>> On 11/16/11 6:20 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:29 AM, Paul Kyzivat >>>> wrote: >>>>> On 11/16/11 5:22 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:01 AM, Paul Kyzivat >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Clarification please: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 11/16/11 11:19 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In this case, e.g., two captures with Width={0,250} and >>>>>>>>> Width={250,500} would imply captures that abut each other, and >>>>>>>>> another >>>>>>>>> with Width={0,500} would completely encompass the first two in the >>>>>>>>> horizontal. You just wouldn't know the actual scale. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And, finally, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Coordinate_Type = "NoScale" - No scale is implied. All that is >>>>>>>>> meant >>>>>>>>> that a coordinate of N+X is further {to the left, deeper into the >>>>>>>>> audience, higher} >>>>>>>>> than a coordinate of N, for X> 0. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> NoScale should imply reflexivity, however, so that two captures >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> Width={0,250} and Width={251,252} would still imply captures that >>>>>>>>> abut >>>>>>>>> each other, and another with Width={0,251} would completely >>>>>>>>> encompass >>>>>>>> typo >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> s/251/252/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the first two in the horizontal. The difference is that it >>>>>>>>> would not >>>>>>>>> be proper to say anything about the relative size of the two >>>>>>>>> captures, except that they do not abut each other. (This might >>>>>>>>> easily >>>>>>>>> arise in a MCU setting, where two inputs use radically different >>>>>>>>> Virtual coordinate assignments.) >>>>>>> Are these *real* numbers? Or integers? If integers, are they open or >>>>>>> closed >>>>>>> intervals? >>>>>>> >>>>>> That is a good question. I believe that integers are generally >>>>>> assumed, and that one reason why >>>>>> mm rather than m are used is to allow for integer variables. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> In one example {0,250} is adjacent to {250,500} >>>>>>> >>>>>>> in the other, {0,250} is adjacent to {252,252}. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can't have it both ways. Since they can be mm, I presume >>>>>>> these are >>>>>>> real >>>>>>> numbers, and so the latter set is is not really adjacent. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (And {252,252} seems like an uninteresting capture.) >>>>>> Sorry, >>>>>> >>>>>> {0,250} and {250,252} was what was meant. The point was that >>>>>> >>>>>> - with virtual coordinates there is no real difference that can be >>>>>> derived _in scale_ between {0,250} and {250,252}. >>>>>> They are arbitrary choices EXCEPT that >>>>>> >>>>>> - {0,250} and {250,252} implies adjacency while >>>>>> {0,250} and {251,252} does not >>>>>> >>>>>> and, of course, {0,250} is to the left of {250,252} >>>>> So then these are really [0,250), [250, 252) to have adjacency without >>>>> overlap? >>>> That is how I would interpret virtual coordinates. >>>> >>>> {M,N}, {N, P} M< N< P implies adjacency, while >>>> >>>> {M,N}, {P, Q} M< N< P< Q implies no adjacency >>>> >>>> while both imply ordering. (By adjacency I mean being contiguous). >>> OK. So these are just readings off a metric tape measure, to a >>> resolution of >>> mm. And for virtual ones they are readings off a tape measure with >>> unknown >>> resolution. >> Yes. I believe this captures the discussion that we have been having, >> in person and on this list. >> >> Marshall >> >>> Thanks, >>> Paul >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Wed Nov 16 16:56:13 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A98C11E8099 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:56:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.496 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.496 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.103, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B6HGG3f4idH0 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:56:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-fx0-f44.google.com (mail-fx0-f44.google.com [209.85.161.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED43A11E8086 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:56:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by faap16 with SMTP id p16so2875276faa.31 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:56:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kORD3eiQpnR9K+gvuxaRF53nEIDxyPfrpa5borXhZjQ=; b=P71QPsYmKAEMmswAbwF76ulFidV69xlOJJ5bWZhmIlKI3JXNlN6AzyCT5Zl6FT++Qk KWB4VGf47ZDh/yuZBVJGHdoS6i982/A51kQsyHWGm6EANSaUJZP9eSaJsV/DMOF4lncl PpEqNRLCErY9mcDdLQT/+oovQ2DndOoiJNHSs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.227.99 with SMTP id rz3mr9413574obc.4.1321491367494; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:56:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.159.73 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:56:07 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4EC44AA7.4030303@nteczone.com> References: <4ebe951b.a87a440a.7d22.ffffd092@mx.google.com> <4EC2E224.40805@nteczone.com> <4EC37BFF.70903@alum.mit.edu> <4EC38279.7020109@alum.mit.edu> <4EC42F9D.7040109@alum.mit.edu> <4EC44AA7.4030303@nteczone.com> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:56:07 -0500 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: Christian Groves Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE Coordinate system proposal X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 00:56:13 -0000 On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:43 PM, Christian Groves wrote: > "And for virtual ones they are readings off a tape measure with unknown > resolution." > > Just to clarify is it really "unknown and possibly changing resolution"? = For > me a tape measure implies a constant scale even if you don't know what it > is. Maybe an elastic tape measure? :-) > Yes, I would agree. "There is no metric information in virtual NoScale coordinates." For example, a MCU could easily change their meaning when compositing image= s. Regards Marshall > Regards, Christian > > On 17/11/2011 9:10 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >> >> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Paul Kyzivat >> =A0wrote: >>> >>> On 11/16/11 6:20 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:29 AM, Paul Kyzivat >>>> =A0wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On 11/16/11 5:22 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:01 AM, Paul Kyzivat >>>>>> =A0wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Clarification please: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 11/16/11 11:19 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In this case, e.g., two captures with Width=3D{0,250} and >>>>>>>>> Width=3D{250,500} would imply captures that abut each other, and >>>>>>>>> another >>>>>>>>> with Width=3D{0,500} would completely encompass the first two in = the >>>>>>>>> horizontal. You just wouldn't know the actual scale. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And, finally, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Coordinate_Type =3D "NoScale" - No scale is implied. All that is >>>>>>>>> meant >>>>>>>>> that a coordinate of N+X is further {to the left, deeper into the >>>>>>>>> audience, higher} >>>>>>>>> than a coordinate of N, for X> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A00. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> NoScale should imply reflexivity, however, so that =A0two capture= s >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> Width=3D{0,250} and Width=3D{251,252} would still imply captures = that >>>>>>>>> abut >>>>>>>>> each other, and another with Width=3D{0,251} would completely >>>>>>>>> encompass >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> typo >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> s/251/252/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the first two in the horizontal. The difference is that it would >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> be proper to say anything =A0about the relative size of the two >>>>>>>>> captures, except that they do not abut each other. (This might >>>>>>>>> easily >>>>>>>>> arise in a MCU setting, where two inputs use radically different >>>>>>>>> Virtual coordinate assignments.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Are these *real* numbers? Or integers? If integers, are they open o= r >>>>>>> closed >>>>>>> intervals? >>>>>>> >>>>>> That is a good question. I believe that integers are generally >>>>>> assumed, and that one reason why >>>>>> mm rather than m are used is to allow for integer variables. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> In one example {0,250} is adjacent to {250,500} >>>>>>> >>>>>>> in the other, {0,250} is adjacent to {252,252}. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can't have it both ways. Since they can be mm, I presume these >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> real >>>>>>> numbers, and so the latter set is is not really adjacent. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (And {252,252} seems like an uninteresting capture.) >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, >>>>>> >>>>>> {0,250} and {250,252} was what was meant. The point was that >>>>>> >>>>>> - with virtual coordinates there is no real difference that can be >>>>>> derived _in scale_ between {0,250} and {250,252}. >>>>>> They are arbitrary choices EXCEPT that >>>>>> >>>>>> - {0,250} and {250,252} implies adjacency while >>>>>> =A0 {0,250} and {251,252} does not >>>>>> >>>>>> and, of course, =A0{0,250} is to the left of {250,252} >>>>> >>>>> So then these are really [0,250), [250, 252) to have adjacency withou= t >>>>> overlap? >>>> >>>> That is how I would interpret virtual coordinates. >>>> >>>> {M,N}, {N, P} =A0 M< =A0 =A0N< =A0 =A0P implies adjacency, while >>>> >>>> {M,N}, {P, Q} =A0 M< =A0 =A0N< =A0 =A0P< =A0 =A0Q implies no adjacency >>>> >>>> while both imply ordering. (By adjacency I mean being contiguous). >>> >>> OK. So these are just readings off a metric tape measure, to a resoluti= on >>> of >>> mm. And for virtual ones they are readings off a tape measure with >>> unknown >>> resolution. >> >> Yes. I believe this captures the discussion that we have been having, >> in person and on this list. >> >> Marshall >> >>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Thanks, >>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Paul >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com Wed Nov 16 18:24:29 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 604A51F0C5E; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:24:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.214 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.214 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.385, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id drhwJNFGisy9; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:24:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vx0-f172.google.com (mail-vx0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F25101F0CA9; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:24:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by vcbfl15 with SMTP id fl15so1486797vcb.31 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:24:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=djgMmFuINvdWOlslldLxJ2QBkZ+MIwObVoots/vFsRk=; b=NQijyU1cD7uzj+9iwCF+5f6VX6A/uYDqRs5lu9a27QwEfJIzWAVdBSaqCmC4e/N/Bq 0lHIR3x9/muFRNt7603vMv8jLD2Z7Nlr6DnEROsSa0HnCLJJuoBeFe2DWRkHk8fY85Ts SDW3ZYdZMqbVHVm48pWFU7evr5rvb9VPvWcWM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.24.13 with SMTP id q13mr23899899vdf.104.1321496664184; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:24:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.175.131 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:24:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 20:24:24 -0600 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: CLUE , rtcweb@ietf.org, avt@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: [clue] Reminder: CLUE/RTCWEB adhoc in room 101D during lunch today (Nov. 17th) X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 02:24:29 -0000 Hello CLUE, RTCWEB and AVTCORE WG members, A reminder of the adhoc today (Thursday, Nov 18th) 11:40-12:50 in room 101D to discuss requirements and usages of RTP for multi-stream for CLUE and RTCWEB. This also relates to the discussion in AVTCORE around multiplexing. The agenda and meeting materials are (will be) available on the CLUE WG wiki: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/clue/trac/wiki/WikiStart Unfortunately, we did not get a room that is listed as allowing food: http://www.ietf.org/meeting/82/things-to-note.html So, please consider that if you might consider bringing in food that you might want to exercise caution and there should be nothing related to that food left in the room after the meeting. Regards, Mary and Ted (as chairs for the adhoc) From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Wed Nov 16 18:36:25 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 951501F0C69; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:36:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.101, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VklzFcYSq-6u; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:36:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-fx0-f44.google.com (mail-fx0-f44.google.com [209.85.161.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76C601F0C3D; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:36:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by faap16 with SMTP id p16so3063898faa.31 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:36:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vnddLQ5Afl416algYd9dqTvoiuVWEI1D/zaa3K5u0Wo=; b=q0fuR8AKv7iYBs73aF9rxZ7O/BvvnXuyoP9syOIX/hUrjMPYnMuTsiHyeBDHiwFSro yQDSmvJLyyOJFiWRtI+P4FtvJONuGemJbPaPsKV711EVzAbYlUTf+Fb6Em2nLBqybyF0 UgKzOYavp41pZkDJ9x+4ednfoyBFvCHUU/6q8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.7.66 with SMTP id h2mr9604306oba.14.1321497383391; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:36:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.159.73 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:36:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 21:36:23 -0500 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: Mary Barnes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org, CLUE , avt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Reminder: CLUE/RTCWEB adhoc in room 101D during lunch today (Nov. 17th) X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 02:36:25 -0000 On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:24 PM, Mary Barnes w= rote: > Hello CLUE, RTCWEB and AVTCORE WG members, > > A reminder of the adhoc today (Thursday, Nov 18th) 11:40-12:50 in room > 101D to discuss requirements and usages of RTP for multi-stream for > CLUE and RTCWEB. =A0 This also relates to the discussion in AVTCORE > around multiplexing. Note that that is NOT the room in the agenda http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/agenda/clue.html The venue was moved. Regards Marshall > > The agenda and meeting materials are (will be) available on the CLUE > WG wiki: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/clue/trac/wiki/WikiStart > > Unfortunately, we did not get a room that is listed as allowing food: > http://www.ietf.org/meeting/82/things-to-note.html > > So, please consider that if you might consider bringing in food that > you might want to exercise caution and there should be nothing related > to that food left in the room after the meeting. > > Regards, > Mary and Ted > (as chairs for the adhoc) > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com Wed Nov 16 19:00:30 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 779021F0CAE; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:00:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.377, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sNsYRNWdxEq5; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:00:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vx0-f172.google.com (mail-vx0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E2F71F0CA1; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:00:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by vcbfl15 with SMTP id fl15so1515736vcb.31 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:00:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=P3OFPmk5KcX/UkdYBAKKH4bcVagmkUKLOEG67hkkSus=; b=IevNQiKPeR3cBEOtZ15KqyLyrXzDuUk8Ri+FQqhvmu4Rh6fFYzKMARYIMTlFVLMaPm 4QeH6bdq81Ost9NiGJb5EBsS04Y2P74oNyrWVZwcAlfrgomyidTwleTcuJB16UJ3Cvd7 HHUXa3htMSuxQs6Vf3EjpfMrGjxrF++1Vrfzo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.17.112 with SMTP id n16mr53442893vdd.70.1321498829057; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:00:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.175.131 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:00:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 21:00:29 -0600 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: Marshall Eubanks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org, CLUE , avt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Reminder: CLUE/RTCWEB adhoc in room 101D during lunch today (Nov. 17th) X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 03:00:30 -0000 I updated the agenda in the meeting materials so there should be no confusion. You may need to refresh your browser to see the update. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:24 PM, Mary Barnes = wrote: >> Hello CLUE, RTCWEB and AVTCORE WG members, >> >> A reminder of the adhoc today (Thursday, Nov 18th) 11:40-12:50 in room >> 101D to discuss requirements and usages of RTP for multi-stream for >> CLUE and RTCWEB. =A0 This also relates to the discussion in AVTCORE >> around multiplexing. > > Note that that is NOT the room in the agenda > > http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/agenda/clue.html > > The venue was moved. > > Regards > Marshall >> >> The agenda and meeting materials are (will be) available on the CLUE >> WG wiki: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/clue/trac/wiki/WikiStart >> >> Unfortunately, we did not get a room that is listed as allowing food: >> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/82/things-to-note.html >> >> So, please consider that if you might consider bringing in food that >> you might want to exercise caution and there should be nothing related >> to that food left in the room after the meeting. >> >> Regards, >> Mary and Ted >> (as chairs for the adhoc) >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> > From stephen.botzko@gmail.com Wed Nov 16 19:21:23 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3E8A1F0CBF; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:21:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZtGxCk-FovwN; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:21:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wy0-f172.google.com (mail-wy0-f172.google.com [74.125.82.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FF761F0CBB; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:21:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by wyf28 with SMTP id 28so1577979wyf.31 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:21:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=mFM+GuDBs5WCb1HXfHUgLdQfu9HxzMY+fNgzhejKdK4=; b=CPixce+E4CA7beXwYbv5MFqxn3hNsXyRzJS9r9ngkn+AIYVdjcz1H0fsOBLrpnD1IM rKHRXKSH70EHQ+4xxVDiP3AxBpY/q/4Tm/331jp+SuDAH6n1vi7kR8BBW3ost0/7JkCD NGrN145HmqVj3LRIGPInBgqvWrjPnwcqEPFBA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.116.237 with SMTP id jz13mr55127792vdb.90.1321500079858; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:21:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.183.33 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:21:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 11:21:19 +0800 Message-ID: From: Stephen Botzko To: Mary Barnes Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec5486432d4a50004b1e5b640 Cc: CLUE , rtcweb@ietf.org, avt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Reminder: CLUE/RTCWEB adhoc in room 101D during lunch today (Nov. 17th) X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 03:21:23 -0000 --bcaec5486432d4a50004b1e5b640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 It would be nice if the Android/iPhone apps showed adhoc meetings... Maybe something to forward to the appropriate tools folks. Stephen Botzko On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Mary Barnes wrote: > I updated the agenda in the meeting materials so there should be no > confusion. You may need to refresh your browser to see the update. > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Marshall Eubanks > wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:24 PM, Mary Barnes > wrote: > >> Hello CLUE, RTCWEB and AVTCORE WG members, > >> > >> A reminder of the adhoc today (Thursday, Nov 18th) 11:40-12:50 in room > >> 101D to discuss requirements and usages of RTP for multi-stream for > >> CLUE and RTCWEB. This also relates to the discussion in AVTCORE > >> around multiplexing. > > > > Note that that is NOT the room in the agenda > > > > http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/agenda/clue.html > > > > The venue was moved. > > > > Regards > > Marshall > >> > >> The agenda and meeting materials are (will be) available on the CLUE > >> WG wiki: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/clue/trac/wiki/WikiStart > >> > >> Unfortunately, we did not get a room that is listed as allowing food: > >> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/82/things-to-note.html > >> > >> So, please consider that if you might consider bringing in food that > >> you might want to exercise caution and there should be nothing related > >> to that food left in the room after the meeting. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Mary and Ted > >> (as chairs for the adhoc) > >> _______________________________________________ > >> clue mailing list > >> clue@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > --bcaec5486432d4a50004b1e5b640 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It would be nice if the Android/iPhone apps showed adhoc meetings...
Maybe something to forward to the appropriate tools folks.

Stephen = Botzko

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, = Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:
I updated the agenda in the meeting materia= ls so there should be no
confusion. =A0You may need to refresh your browser to see the update.

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Marshall Eubanks
<marshall.eubanks@gmail.co= m> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:24 PM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hello CLUE, RTCWEB and AVTCORE WG members,
>>
>> A reminder of the adhoc today (Thursday, Nov 18th) 11:40-12:50 in = room
>> 101D to discuss requirements and usages of RTP for multi-stream fo= r
>> CLUE and RTCWEB. =A0 This also relates to the discussion in AVTCOR= E
>> around multiplexing.
>
> Note that that is NOT the room in the agenda
>
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/agenda/clue.html
>
> The venue was moved.
>
> Regards
> Marshall
>>
>> The agenda and meeting materials are (will be) available on the CL= UE
>> WG wiki: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/clue/trac/wiki/Wi= kiStart
>>
>> Unfortunately, we did not get a room that is listed as allowing fo= od:
>> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/82/things-to-note.html
>>
>> So, please consider that if you might consider bringing in food th= at
>> you might want to exercise caution and there should be nothing rel= ated
>> to that food left in the room after the meeting.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mary and Ted
>> (as chairs for the adhoc)
>> _______________________________________________
>> clue mailing list
>> clue@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>>
>
_______________________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue

--bcaec5486432d4a50004b1e5b640-- From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Wed Nov 16 19:22:19 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 146E21F0CC0; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:22:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3tqlXkFFE1zs; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:22:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ww0-f44.google.com (mail-ww0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F116B1F0CA5; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:22:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ww0-f44.google.com with SMTP id 5so1718038wwe.13 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:22:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VNBU3mYARCWHRM/oj57rmnKmL9JJPmgjPJcskZnJm18=; b=elzhLplWt1XbNtuQH92geHdlGBrm/DA2ayLQjx0Hdh4SSU1nFmTq1YHIS+ouyEFVK0 JtoAS5h1eF165RtjH2WNZROOSOHseUOH35W0j8GAF0/DiTNsuYIcuY7X5wOOosxrBaKf +fus2xlthp7yPL8vl7H83c8TGiaeaxfaX2i1k= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.7.66 with SMTP id h2mr9728745oba.14.1321500137336; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:22:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.159.73 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:22:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 22:22:17 -0500 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: Stephen Botzko Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: CLUE , rtcweb@ietf.org, avt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Reminder: CLUE/RTCWEB adhoc in room 101D during lunch today (Nov. 17th) X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 03:22:19 -0000 OK, On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 10:21 PM, Stephen Botzko wrote: > It would be nice if the Android/iPhone apps showed adhoc meetings... > > Maybe something to forward to the appropriate tools folks. > > Stephen Botzko > > On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Mary Barnes > wrote: >> >> I updated the agenda in the meeting materials so there should be no >> confusion. =A0You may need to refresh your browser to see the update. >> >> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Marshall Eubanks >> wrote: >> > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:24 PM, Mary Barnes >> > wrote: >> >> Hello CLUE, RTCWEB and AVTCORE WG members, >> >> >> >> A reminder of the adhoc today (Thursday, Nov 18th) 11:40-12:50 in roo= m >> >> 101D to discuss requirements and usages of RTP for multi-stream for >> >> CLUE and RTCWEB. =A0 This also relates to the discussion in AVTCORE >> >> around multiplexing. >> > >> > Note that that is NOT the room in the agenda >> > >> > http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/agenda/clue.html >> > >> > The venue was moved. >> > >> > Regards >> > Marshall >> >> >> >> The agenda and meeting materials are (will be) available on the CLUE >> >> WG wiki: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/clue/trac/wiki/WikiStart >> >> >> >> Unfortunately, we did not get a room that is listed as allowing food: >> >> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/82/things-to-note.html >> >> >> >> So, please consider that if you might consider bringing in food that >> >> you might want to exercise caution and there should be nothing relate= d >> >> to that food left in the room after the meeting. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Mary and Ted >> >> (as chairs for the adhoc) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> clue mailing list >> >> clue@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Wed Nov 16 19:30:30 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E0C61F0CD3; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:30:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.099, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s4Nvti4ZnPbZ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:30:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-fx0-f44.google.com (mail-fx0-f44.google.com [209.85.161.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49B191F0CD0; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:30:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-fx0-f44.google.com with SMTP id p16so3159931faa.31 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:30:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pnS21PGuhbDrxCN+spr8W7tDuFUi3+1N+8b/qn+eNds=; b=jT5367rJFCJH+d0iKVis1uTyZzRnbusvV+FnR3EIZwndQepWmuTgo9Gk4ZdXMoQEST VecmAJnkqW5Zy2wo9cQ0JeKM2EPIcIULGeizMFwT6IdQm/OEwNgM7QheRQWo1Rgc3qvo aC13UjHG8vGhvWweXlFsC+jXiklmNQWXAXH1o= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.21.134 with SMTP id v6mr9769415obe.64.1321500628330; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:30:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.159.73 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:30:28 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 22:30:28 -0500 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: Stephen Botzko Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: CLUE , rtcweb@ietf.org, avt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Reminder: CLUE/RTCWEB adhoc in room 101D during lunch today (Nov. 17th) X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 03:30:30 -0000 I made the request. Marshall On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 10:22 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > OK, > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 10:21 PM, Stephen Botzko > wrote: >> It would be nice if the Android/iPhone apps showed adhoc meetings... >> >> Maybe something to forward to the appropriate tools folks. >> >> Stephen Botzko >> >> On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Mary Barnes >> wrote: >>> >>> I updated the agenda in the meeting materials so there should be no >>> confusion. =A0You may need to refresh your browser to see the update. >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Marshall Eubanks >>> wrote: >>> > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:24 PM, Mary Barnes >>> > wrote: >>> >> Hello CLUE, RTCWEB and AVTCORE WG members, >>> >> >>> >> A reminder of the adhoc today (Thursday, Nov 18th) 11:40-12:50 in ro= om >>> >> 101D to discuss requirements and usages of RTP for multi-stream for >>> >> CLUE and RTCWEB. =A0 This also relates to the discussion in AVTCORE >>> >> around multiplexing. >>> > >>> > Note that that is NOT the room in the agenda >>> > >>> > http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/agenda/clue.html >>> > >>> > The venue was moved. >>> > >>> > Regards >>> > Marshall >>> >> >>> >> The agenda and meeting materials are (will be) available on the CLUE >>> >> WG wiki: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/clue/trac/wiki/WikiStart >>> >> >>> >> Unfortunately, we did not get a room that is listed as allowing food= : >>> >> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/82/things-to-note.html >>> >> >>> >> So, please consider that if you might consider bringing in food that >>> >> you might want to exercise caution and there should be nothing relat= ed >>> >> to that food left in the room after the meeting. >>> >> >>> >> Regards, >>> >> Mary and Ted >>> >> (as chairs for the adhoc) >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> clue mailing list >>> >> clue@ietf.org >>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>> >> >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> clue mailing list >>> clue@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> >> > From allyn@cisco.com Thu Nov 17 03:03:48 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C22121F9AA8 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 03:03:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.137 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.137 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.462, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ec5dG8-GiU76 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 03:03:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-1.cisco.com (mtv-iport-1.cisco.com [173.36.130.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B27BC21F9A4C for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 03:03:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=allyn@cisco.com; l=954; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1321527827; x=1322737427; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:from:to; bh=U7/NIrkiXQ5ctIk836QYWL+Eeqa6gZEVKcX4k6fptLA=; b=hmUo4O/HsjkO9bV7PsUtyMXCsXT+Pn2h17GIHLUkYU60mlkScHoxI3vL 5pxlvckZi47HCupDEIiTxWjd8SFVnrPNXai8UdxAkA2C/Dnvw5vACYjl5 6amK086OSBpH0EpTPX5ZCN8OlVerG6PONhSRaKPwMjwU0Rmjd51eyihKy 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgEFAJPpxE6rRDoJ/2dsb2JhbABChQGjdoEHgQWBcgEBAQQSARANBEMUAQgaAgYGGAICAwFLAQYEAQQBGhqdYQGMWZFpgTCHUTNjBIgVkWSMWQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,526,1315180800"; d="scan'208";a="13045202" Received: from mtv-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.58.9]) by mtv-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Nov 2011 11:03:47 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAHB3lKW018157 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 11:03:47 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.80]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 17 Nov 2011 03:03:47 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 03:03:45 -0800 Message-ID: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625EF00@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New Version Notification fordraft-hansen-clue-protocol-choices-evaluation-00.txt Thread-Index: AcylFX7xoR/puAaLSxSw+pDf2SZdhQAAtozQ From: "Allyn Romanow (allyn)" To: , "Robert Hansen (rohanse2)" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Nov 2011 11:03:47.0344 (UTC) FILETIME=[94572900:01CCA518] Subject: [clue] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-hansen-clue-protocol-choices-evaluation-00.txt X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 11:03:48 -0000 TG9va2luZyBmb3J3YXJkIHRvIGhlYXJpbmcgY29tbWVudHMtDQoNCg0KQSBuZXcgdmVyc2lvbiBv ZiBJLUQsIGRyYWZ0LWhhbnNlbi1jbHVlLXByb3RvY29sLWNob2ljZXMtZXZhbHVhdGlvbi0wMC50 eHQgaGFzIGJlZW4gc3VjY2Vzc2Z1bGx5IHN1Ym1pdHRlZCBieSBBbGx5biBSb21hbm93IGFuZCBw b3N0ZWQgdG8gdGhlIElFVEYgcmVwb3NpdG9yeS4NCg0KRmlsZW5hbWU6CSBkcmFmdC1oYW5zZW4t Y2x1ZS1wcm90b2NvbC1jaG9pY2VzLWV2YWx1YXRpb24NClJldmlzaW9uOgkgMDANClRpdGxlOgkJ IEV2YWx1YXRpb24gb2YgdXNpbmcgU0lQIG9yIGFuIGluZGVwZW5kZW50IHByb3RvY29sIGZvciBD TFVFIG1lc3NhZ2luZw0KQ3JlYXRpb24gZGF0ZToJIDIwMTEtMTEtMTcNCldHIElEOgkJIEluZGl2 aWR1YWwgU3VibWlzc2lvbg0KTnVtYmVyIG9mIHBhZ2VzOiA4DQoNCkFic3RyYWN0Og0KICAgVGhp cyBkb2N1bWVudCBldmFsdWF0ZXMgdGhlIGFkdmFudGFnZXMgYW5kIGRpc2FkdmFudGFnZXMgb2Yg dXNpbmcgU0lQDQogICBvciBhbiBpbmRlcGVuZGVudCBwcm90b2NvbCBmb3IgY29udmV5aW5nIENM VUUgbWVzc2FnZXMvDQoNCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICANCg0KDQpUaGUgSUVURiBT ZWNyZXRhcmlhdA0K From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Thu Nov 17 06:24:45 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D32D11E813F for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 06:24:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BQpQz77cFtcu for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 06:24:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta06.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta06.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB50211E8128 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 06:23:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta20.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.71]) by qmta06.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id yC031h0021YDfWL56EPxwb; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 14:23:57 +0000 Received: from dhcp-471c.meeting.ietf.org ([130.129.71.28]) by omta20.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id yEPj1h02V0ccXAy3gEPmij; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 14:23:52 +0000 Message-ID: <4EC518ED.1060709@alum.mit.edu> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 22:23:41 +0800 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clue@ietf.org References: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625EF00@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625EF00@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [clue] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-hansen-clue-protocol-choices-evaluation-00.txt X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 14:24:45 -0000 On 11/17/11 7:03 PM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) wrote: > Looking forward to hearing comments- Ask and ye shall receive: Section 3: "For these reasons we would recommend using UDP over TCP for an independent protocol" I think you must mean TCP over UDP. But, for something serial over UDP, we would be well advised to look at what RTCWEB is doing for its data channel. (TCP over UDP is one possibility, more or less, and SCTP over UDP is another.) Moreoever, based on comments in joint ad hoc today, we may need to constrain ourselves to using *precisely* what RTCWEB uses so that its possible to have an RTCWEB-based endpoint in a CLUE sesssion. Section 5: "for an independent protocol standard libraries can be used for the transport protocol, and it would even be possible to create a CLUE protocol library that could then be distributed, making adoption very straightforward." The options being explored by rtcweb don't all have this property, at least not yet, though it is desired. And unfortunately there is no guarantee of that improving. (IIUC, Each browser implementation will provide an API for web apps. But its possible there won't be a common library used for the implementation in the browser.) Section 7: The issue of intermediaries inadvertently breaking things should not be such a big problem if an appropriate manner of conveying the data in sip is chosen. E.g. if an INFO package is used it should not be a problem. OTOH, intermediaries may well advertently break the usage. But if so its most likely at the specific direction of whoever configured the intermediary. In that case the solution is "if it hurts, don't do it". The intermediary can break any technique if it feels it should. An important issue is not mentioned: sending potentially large messages through the sip signaling path can load down all the servers on the path. Thanks, Paul From Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com Thu Nov 17 18:29:56 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5562021F93B3 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 18:29:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VNDzKNmjzD+7 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 18:29:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from Crpehubprd01.polycom.com (crpehubprd01.polycom.com [140.242.64.158]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0034421F9470 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 18:29:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from Crpmboxprd01.polycom.com ([fe80::ad68:5a0:c919:66b6]) by Crpehubprd01.polycom.com ([fe80::5efe:10.236.0.158%14]) with mapi; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 18:29:50 -0800 From: "Duckworth, Mark" To: "clue@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 18:29:47 -0800 Thread-Topic: [clue] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-hansen-clue-protocol-choices-evaluation-00.txt Thread-Index: Acylme8rWN2FizoeS8aNTUAdW8DRWA== Message-ID: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A6102FA34B75B@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [clue] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-hansen-clue-protocol-choices-evaluation-00.txt X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 02:29:56 -0000 About this one sentence: "For these reasons we would recommend using UDP over TCP for an independent= protocol" I interpreted it to mean "... we would recommend using UDP rather than TCP = ..." Mark -----Original Message----- From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pau= l Kyzivat Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 10:24 PM To: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-hansen-clue-proto= col-choices-evaluation-00.txt On 11/17/11 7:03 PM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) wrote: > Looking forward to hearing comments- Ask and ye shall receive: Section 3: "For these reasons we would recommend using UDP over TCP for an independent= protocol" I think you must mean TCP over UDP. But, for something serial over UDP, we would be well advised to look at wha= t RTCWEB is doing for its data channel. (TCP over UDP is one possibility, m= ore or less, and SCTP over UDP is another.) Moreoever, based on comments in joint ad hoc today, we may need to constrai= n ourselves to using *precisely* what RTCWEB uses so that its possible to h= ave an RTCWEB-based endpoint in a CLUE sesssion. Section 5: "for an independent protocol standard libraries can be used for the transport protocol, and it would even be possible to create a CLUE protocol library that could then be distributed, making adoption very straightforward." The options being explored by rtcweb don't all have this property, at least= not yet, though it is desired. And unfortunately there is no guarantee of = that improving. (IIUC, Each browser implementation will provide an API for = web apps. But its possible there won't be a common library used for the imp= lementation in the browser.) Section 7: The issue of intermediaries inadvertently breaking things should not be suc= h a big problem if an appropriate manner of conveying the data in sip is ch= osen. E.g. if an INFO package is used it should not be a problem. OTOH, intermediaries may well advertently break the usage. But if so its mo= st likely at the specific direction of whoever configured the intermediary.= In that case the solution is "if it hurts, don't do it".=20 The intermediary can break any technique if it feels it should. An important issue is not mentioned: sending potentially large messages thr= ough the sip signaling path can load down all the servers on the path. Thanks, Paul _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Thu Nov 17 18:36:02 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16D9C11E80B5 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 18:36:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.52 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.52 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.079, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UVTPaLfkr-BQ for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 18:36:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D99F11E80B9 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 18:35:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta21.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.88]) by qmta08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id ySZD1h0061u4NiLA8SbsXi; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 02:35:52 +0000 Received: from dhcp-16f3.meeting.ietf.org ([130.129.22.243]) by omta21.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id ySmZ1h00y5EhBnE8hSmdTv; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 02:46:42 +0000 Message-ID: <4EC5C484.3000400@alum.mit.edu> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:35:48 +0800 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clue@ietf.org References: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A6102FA34B75B@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> In-Reply-To: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A6102FA34B75B@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [clue] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-hansen-clue-protocol-choices-evaluation-00.txt X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 02:36:02 -0000 On 11/18/11 10:29 AM, Duckworth, Mark wrote: > About this one sentence: > "For these reasons we would recommend using UDP over TCP for an independent protocol" > I interpreted it to mean "... we would recommend using UDP rather than TCP ..." If that is the intent, then it puts it into a different light! Thanks, Paul > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Paul Kyzivat > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 10:24 PM > To: clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-hansen-clue-protocol-choices-evaluation-00.txt > > On 11/17/11 7:03 PM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) wrote: >> Looking forward to hearing comments- > > Ask and ye shall receive: > > Section 3: > > "For these reasons we would recommend using UDP over TCP for an independent protocol" > > I think you must mean TCP over UDP. > > But, for something serial over UDP, we would be well advised to look at what RTCWEB is doing for its data channel. (TCP over UDP is one possibility, more or less, and SCTP over UDP is another.) > > Moreoever, based on comments in joint ad hoc today, we may need to constrain ourselves to using *precisely* what RTCWEB uses so that its possible to have an RTCWEB-based endpoint in a CLUE sesssion. > > Section 5: > > "for an independent protocol standard libraries can be used for the > transport protocol, and it would even be possible to create a CLUE > protocol library that could then be distributed, making adoption very > straightforward." > > The options being explored by rtcweb don't all have this property, at least not yet, though it is desired. And unfortunately there is no guarantee of that improving. (IIUC, Each browser implementation will provide an API for web apps. But its possible there won't be a common library used for the implementation in the browser.) > > Section 7: > > The issue of intermediaries inadvertently breaking things should not be such a big problem if an appropriate manner of conveying the data in sip is chosen. E.g. if an INFO package is used it should not be a problem. > > OTOH, intermediaries may well advertently break the usage. But if so its most likely at the specific direction of whoever configured the intermediary. In that case the solution is "if it hurts, don't do it". > The intermediary can break any technique if it feels it should. > > An important issue is not mentioned: sending potentially large messages through the sip signaling path can load down all the servers on the path. > > Thanks, > Paul > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > From allyn@cisco.com Thu Nov 17 19:54:35 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E19D21F91F2 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 19:54:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.17 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.17 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.429, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jacfQSUeSMsS for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 19:54:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-1.cisco.com (mtv-iport-1.cisco.com [173.36.130.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77A9821F91F0 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 19:54:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=allyn@cisco.com; l=3620; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1321588474; x=1322798074; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:in-reply-to:references:from:to:cc; bh=vIfIneMo4Bjb6SgKvvkdj7fX4g8TShQwEuXd+c1vY14=; b=gPx2j78cOQtzve1ucxjKjdg9S3ZA1DGvfggJYiNPYZDxzaFSUV2uSNj3 JVyQOB9JcABMPLm2yrQUD26JsXVefqAYTxA0rHezLHg3AoShJEvg8lW87 t4P3e7gSy4dHxcnIeYdHyh+XoYZhRtJgGO3abUS6Ut2+q+vSYQEcIorBo s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AokAAITWxU6rRDoI/2dsb2JhbABCDpoDkDKBBYFyAQEBBAEBAQ8BHQo0CQIMBAIBCA4DBAEBAQoGFwEGASYfCAEIAQEEARIIEweHaZguAZ4uBIk0YwSIFpFmjANY X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,530,1315180800"; d="scan'208";a="13242173" Received: from mtv-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.58.8]) by mtv-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Nov 2011 03:54:34 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAI3sY1N030399; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 03:54:34 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.80]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 17 Nov 2011 19:54:34 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 19:54:31 -0800 Message-ID: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0630D1A9@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4EC5C484.3000400@alum.mit.edu> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clue] FW: New Version Notificationfordraft-hansen-clue-protocol-choices-evaluation-00.txt Thread-Index: AcylmtcBh8/vdn7ATKqHkwH1SsKgtwACsUew References: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A6102FA34B75B@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> <4EC5C484.3000400@alum.mit.edu> From: "Allyn Romanow (allyn)" To: "Paul Kyzivat" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Nov 2011 03:54:34.0615 (UTC) FILETIME=[C8EE5070:01CCA5A5] Subject: Re: [clue] FW: New Version Notificationfordraft-hansen-clue-protocol-choices-evaluation-00.txt X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 03:54:35 -0000 Yes, thanks Mark, that's the intent.. prefer UDP rather than TCP. > -----Original Message----- > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Paul Kyzivat > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 6:36 PM > To: clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] FW: New Version Notificationfordraft-hansen-clue- > protocol-choices-evaluation-00.txt >=20 > On 11/18/11 10:29 AM, Duckworth, Mark wrote: > > About this one sentence: > > "For these reasons we would recommend using UDP over TCP for an > independent protocol" > > I interpreted it to mean "... we would recommend using UDP rather > than TCP ..." >=20 > If that is the intent, then it puts it into a different light! >=20 > Thanks, > Paul >=20 > > Mark > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of Paul Kyzivat > > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 10:24 PM > > To: clue@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [clue] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-hansen- > clue-protocol-choices-evaluation-00.txt > > > > On 11/17/11 7:03 PM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) wrote: > >> Looking forward to hearing comments- > > > > Ask and ye shall receive: > > > > Section 3: > > > > "For these reasons we would recommend using UDP over TCP for an > independent protocol" > > > > I think you must mean TCP over UDP. > > > > But, for something serial over UDP, we would be well advised to look > at what RTCWEB is doing for its data channel. (TCP over UDP is one > possibility, more or less, and SCTP over UDP is another.) > > > > Moreoever, based on comments in joint ad hoc today, we may need to > constrain ourselves to using *precisely* what RTCWEB uses so that its > possible to have an RTCWEB-based endpoint in a CLUE sesssion. > > > > Section 5: > > > > "for an independent protocol standard libraries can be used for > the > > transport protocol, and it would even be possible to create a > CLUE > > protocol library that could then be distributed, making adoption > very > > straightforward." > > > > The options being explored by rtcweb don't all have this property, at > least not yet, though it is desired. And unfortunately there is no > guarantee of that improving. (IIUC, Each browser implementation will > provide an API for web apps. But its possible there won't be a common > library used for the implementation in the browser.) > > > > Section 7: > > > > The issue of intermediaries inadvertently breaking things should not > be such a big problem if an appropriate manner of conveying the data in > sip is chosen. E.g. if an INFO package is used it should not be a > problem. > > > > OTOH, intermediaries may well advertently break the usage. But if so > its most likely at the specific direction of whoever configured the > intermediary. In that case the solution is "if it hurts, don't do it". > > The intermediary can break any technique if it feels it should. > > > > An important issue is not mentioned: sending potentially large > messages through the sip signaling path can load down all the servers > on the path. > > > > Thanks, > > Paul > > _______________________________________________ > > clue mailing list > > clue@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > _______________________________________________ > > clue mailing list > > clue@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From rohanse2@cisco.com Fri Nov 18 10:29:41 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0016511E809D for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:29:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 322Dq0Su8nzi for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:29:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEED811E8099 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:29:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=rohanse2@cisco.com; l=4771; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1321640979; x=1322850579; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PdrmOFr1xTiRJiz0sfGAzy8Hh/UmhZgJO6MTHAQveYM=; b=F/xaaU09AS3jspAiRqxKpW8tEZAzzkQhSHSYF3c1hzHjJjVKbWsynkwD 6aiTO4NfeGNjkrtUAm9Z0p7LJrtF4fZ2joVE9DAv+KpigW05B39OiYDwX VwW4uEJ+ifVV0eUUEcBdsS9bY61EF0E9D00Q+e3EJ0KwbrVRouc6o+uj8 k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EAJqjxk6Q/khR/2dsb2JhbABDqjOBBYFyAQEBAwEBAQEPASU2CQERCxgJFg8JAwIBAgEVJwkTBgIBARcHh2EImBUBnl4EihcElDmFPYxE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,534,1315180800"; d="scan'208";a="60006095" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.72.81]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Nov 2011 18:29:38 +0000 Received: from [10.47.197.28] ([10.47.197.28]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAIITcQx005938 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:29:38 GMT Message-ID: <4EC6A41D.1060607@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:29:49 +0000 From: Robert Hansen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clue@ietf.org References: <9AC2C4348FD86B4BB1F8FA9C5E3A5EDC0625EF00@xmb-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com> <4EC518ED.1060709@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <4EC518ED.1060709@alum.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [clue] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-hansen-clue-protocol-choices-evaluation-00.txt X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:29:41 -0000 Hi Paul - thanks for looking through things, comments below: > Section 3: > > "For these reasons we would recommend using UDP over TCP for an > independent protocol" > > I think you must mean TCP over UDP. As Mark Duckworth pointed out this was poor choice of words on my part, and I did indeed mean UDP *as opposed to* TCP. > "for an independent protocol standard libraries can be used for the > transport protocol, and it would even be possible to create a CLUE > protocol library that could then be distributed, making adoption very > straightforward." > > The options being explored by rtcweb don't all have this property, at > least not yet, though it is desired. And unfortunately there is no > guarantee of that improving. (IIUC, Each browser implementation will > provide an API for web apps. But its possible there won't be a common > library used for the implementation in the browser.) Being able to provide a complete protocol library would obviously be desirable, though the messaging portion of the current CLUE protocol is relatively straightforward and should be relatively simple to implement (though that'll depend somewhat on exactly how the messages are encoded - ASN.1 will be harder to adopt than XML). > Section 7: > > The issue of intermediaries inadvertently breaking things should not be > such a big problem if an appropriate manner of conveying the data in sip > is chosen. E.g. if an INFO package is used it should not be a problem. > > OTOH, intermediaries may well advertently break the usage. But if so its > most likely at the specific direction of whoever configured the > intermediary. In that case the solution is "if it hurts, don't do it". > The intermediary can break any technique if it feels it should. I obviously agree that if the intermediary device is configured to not allow something it should be able to prevent it; this is possible both if CLUE messages are conveyed in SIP itself, or if they are only negotiated in SIP. However, the problem occurs when B2BUAs won't or can't pass through things they don't recognise. How problematic things are likely be be will depend on the SBC and how the CLUE messages are put into SIP; putting CLUE messages in INVITE/UPDATE is particularly likely to run into such issues, in my experience. > An important issue is not mentioned: sending potentially large messages > through the sip signaling path can load down all the servers on the path. That's true, and not something I mentioned. Rob On 17/11/2011 14:23, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > On 11/17/11 7:03 PM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) wrote: >> Looking forward to hearing comments- > > Ask and ye shall receive: > > Section 3: > > "For these reasons we would recommend using UDP over TCP for an > independent protocol" > > I think you must mean TCP over UDP. > > But, for something serial over UDP, we would be well advised to look at > what RTCWEB is doing for its data channel. (TCP over UDP is one > possibility, more or less, and SCTP over UDP is another.) > > Moreoever, based on comments in joint ad hoc today, we may need to > constrain ourselves to using *precisely* what RTCWEB uses so that its > possible to have an RTCWEB-based endpoint in a CLUE sesssion. > > Section 5: > > "for an independent protocol standard libraries can be used for the > transport protocol, and it would even be possible to create a CLUE > protocol library that could then be distributed, making adoption very > straightforward." > > The options being explored by rtcweb don't all have this property, at > least not yet, though it is desired. And unfortunately there is no > guarantee of that improving. (IIUC, Each browser implementation will > provide an API for web apps. But its possible there won't be a common > library used for the implementation in the browser.) > > Section 7: > > The issue of intermediaries inadvertently breaking things should not be > such a big problem if an appropriate manner of conveying the data in sip > is chosen. E.g. if an INFO package is used it should not be a problem. > > OTOH, intermediaries may well advertently break the usage. But if so its > most likely at the specific direction of whoever configured the > intermediary. In that case the solution is "if it hurts, don't do it". > The intermediary can break any technique if it feels it should. > > An important issue is not mentioned: sending potentially large messages > through the sip signaling path can load down all the servers on the path. > > Thanks, > Paul > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From fluffy@cisco.com Fri Nov 18 15:39:50 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59D6F11E809D for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 15:39:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fi36sWDdLCkU for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 15:39:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams-iport-4.cisco.com (ams-iport-4.cisco.com [144.254.224.147]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F98511E8091 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 15:39:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=fluffy@cisco.com; l=1282; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1321659589; x=1322869189; h=subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=pm6Q3L1amyDoMNmueO70fyruIqRLBfBGkfEJe67d+8Q=; b=RNBzLx5JS3hTBSi1jPscoe39/XPW7j9lqKC6hKlBLK8Nua58J9VKzaMQ TBHnWyP0uIAjImaSe/74AzJeYE9Iy4EfPiBit8Z8ed5i9kw3IPmQ42nHE z8cYDXrjnVvSYTs6ZwMjHxbTD52gshX+ubGkezhBjZGvFYtMck6I1nfDp I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av4EAGzrxk5Io8UR/2dsb2JhbABDqjiBBYFyAQEBAwEBAQEPAVsLBQsLRicwBhMih2EImBUBnlWJNGMEiBWMJJIO X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,536,1315180800"; d="scan'208";a="3480895" Received: from bgl-core-2.cisco.com ([72.163.197.17]) by ams-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Nov 2011 23:39:47 +0000 Received: from tky-vpn-client-230-81.cisco.com (tky-vpn-client-230-81.cisco.com [10.70.230.81]) by bgl-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAINdjS3008450; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 23:39:46 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 07:39:44 +0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3D85E249-00DE-4F4E-BEBF-AFA9FD71FAE5@cisco.com> References: To: Mary Barnes X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) Cc: CLUE Subject: Re: [clue] Doodle for proposed Interim in Feb (15, 16, 17) X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 23:39:50 -0000 Before we announce these are the dates=85. I like to consider the = possibility of aligning this with an RTCWeb meeting. Could we pick dates = with conjunction with RTCWeb so that we could have the meetings back to = back ? I also think we should have the doodle proposed some dates that do not = require travel over valentines day. Many people I have spoken to have = raised this as an issue. Even if intention is to not line up with = RTCWeb, could we redo the dodo to have a dates that cover a few = different weeks so people have a meaningful choice about dates.=20 Thanks, Cullen On Nov 14, 2011, at 13:32 , Mary Barnes wrote: > Hi all, >=20 > Please respond to the doodle if you have an interest in attending a > CLUE face to face interim meeting in February, 2011. We will meet > for two days (either 15-16, or 16-17) in Andover, Massachusetts > (closest airport is Boston). Logistics for the location are on the > CLUE WG wiki from the Oct. interim meeting. >=20 > If you can reply by Dec. 2nd , 2011 that will allow us to properly = plan. > http://doodle.com/d86zeaqng28eh3ie >=20 > Regards, > Mary. > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Fri Nov 18 16:08:11 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB72411E80B6 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:08:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.089, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ix3wwLAfmWjB for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:08:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-gy0-f172.google.com (mail-gy0-f172.google.com [209.85.160.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EDB011E809D for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:08:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by ghrr14 with SMTP id r14so1407479ghr.31 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:08:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=17E44GR3fhuCVoSlWeBgp6xGkyaDRPKlNcTrKUHV3vg=; b=UYLaKYKxpMhyvom2IErR+S/3B6/kcmD4yZ2ocmRs8pKYxmQGFI4+WV8uFHSjbDvQX/ u2GoN6j78on9A6Dtc7sSMrdfjzUnEcYZDxE0Yjrl6U8FVnRLXmW6vPMvzJ+8QotIdwVM /3ERXZ/YAkamkNFbQuNxeJCmvxOV5rpysoeK4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.124.33 with SMTP id mf1mr1215697obb.24.1321661290652; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:08:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.159.73 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:08:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <3D85E249-00DE-4F4E-BEBF-AFA9FD71FAE5@cisco.com> References: <3D85E249-00DE-4F4E-BEBF-AFA9FD71FAE5@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 19:08:10 -0500 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: CLUE Subject: Re: [clue] Doodle for proposed Interim in Feb (15, 16, 17) X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 00:08:12 -0000 On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 6:39 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > Before we announce these are the dates=85. I like to consider the possibi= lity of aligning this with an RTCWeb meeting. Could we pick dates with conj= unction with RTCWeb so that we could have the meetings back to back ? > Dear Cullen; Are you proposing a 3 or 4 day meeting in Andover, Massachusetts ? Could we have a possible agenda of what we want to achieve with RTCWEB, and some drafts to read describing means of doing that, before we consider a 4-day joint meeting ? Regards Marshall > I also think we should have the doodle proposed some dates that do not re= quire travel over valentines day. Many people I have spoken to have raised = this as an issue. Even if intention is to not line up with RTCWeb, could we= redo the dodo to have a dates that cover a few different weeks so people h= ave a meaningful choice about dates. > > Thanks, Cullen > > On Nov 14, 2011, at 13:32 , Mary Barnes wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> Please respond to the doodle if you have an interest in attending a >> CLUE face to face interim meeting in February, 2011. =A0 We will meet >> for two days (either 15-16, or 16-17) in Andover, Massachusetts >> (closest airport is Boston). =A0Logistics for the location are on the >> CLUE WG wiki from the Oct. interim meeting. >> >> If you can reply by Dec. 2nd , 2011 that will allow us to properly plan. >> http://doodle.com/d86zeaqng28eh3ie >> >> Regards, >> Mary. >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > From fluffy@cisco.com Fri Nov 18 16:24:04 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 172291F0C3B for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:24:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BIWkrLxP67az for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:24:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams-iport-3.cisco.com (ams-iport-3.cisco.com [144.254.224.146]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12FD91F0C36 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:24:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=fluffy@cisco.com; l=3119; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1321662243; x=1322871843; h=subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=MzIl8DclSngQjjc5OtYyCeFcbUJ3VOdVRYiqCNkFsBU=; b=JSYHA94dGenW4v1r1caqGMviusf+vs9TyTLHPmFnxp6nd+mYlrUih0Y7 CZJF+eT/YiX1H12QyPWQ2S9JCztV8vze6qen1UCCRfdkbPFnBQbI+PPma uQRPzBKZjn96SKx1jP6iMltPeqi6J5LPO9aszn9nbIZTmr1mHHDb6ni9W Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av4EAHT2xk5Io8US/2dsb2JhbABDqjqBBYFyAQEBAwEBAQEPAVsHBAULCxguJzAGEyKHYQiYDgGeU4k0YwSIFYwkkg4 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,536,1315180800"; d="scan'208";a="3479445" Received: from bgl-core-3.cisco.com ([72.163.197.18]) by ams-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 19 Nov 2011 00:24:01 +0000 Received: from tky-vpn-client-230-81.cisco.com (tky-vpn-client-230-81.cisco.com [10.70.230.81]) by bgl-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAJ0NwqF010751; Sat, 19 Nov 2011 00:23:59 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 08:23:58 +0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8A4B3F2B-752A-444B-91D8-749E7EF922B8@cisco.com> References: <3D85E249-00DE-4F4E-BEBF-AFA9FD71FAE5@cisco.com> To: Marshall Eubanks X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) Cc: CLUE Subject: Re: [clue] Doodle for proposed Interim in Feb (15, 16, 17) X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 00:24:04 -0000 I'm proposing a 2 day clue meeting (or whatever length clue wants) = immediately followed by (or preceded by) a 1 or 2 day RTCWeb meeting. = Mostly likely the RTCWeb meeting would be two days but there will be = discussion with the list before that decision is made. The goal would be = to make it possible for people to attend both and hopefully encourage = that - there are clearly skill sets in both groups that the other group = could benefit from. The Clue folks would go and develop there agenda = just as if the meeting was not co-located with RTCWeb meeting and visa = versa.=20 My guess is that RTCWeb meeting would likely focus on the alternative = proposals to the ROAP protocol along ROAP and then also have a big focus = on security framework and requirements for RTP sharing of UDP ports. Of = course that will be developed on RTCWeb list and we will have to see = what drafts come in before hand. RTCWeb has also strongly avoided = discussing the rings where there was no I-D but I understand CLUE is = different in that regard so both WG would deal with drafts, deadlines, = agendas as they normally do.=20 Cullen On Nov 19, 2011, at 8:08 , Marshall Eubanks wrote: > On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 6:39 PM, Cullen Jennings = wrote: >>=20 >> Before we announce these are the dates=85. I like to consider the = possibility of aligning this with an RTCWeb meeting. Could we pick dates = with conjunction with RTCWeb so that we could have the meetings back to = back ? >>=20 >=20 > Dear Cullen; >=20 > Are you proposing a 3 or 4 day meeting in Andover, Massachusetts ? >=20 > Could we have a possible agenda of what we want to achieve with > RTCWEB, and some drafts to read > describing means of doing that, before we consider a 4-day joint = meeting ? >=20 > Regards > Marshall >=20 >> I also think we should have the doodle proposed some dates that do = not require travel over valentines day. Many people I have spoken to = have raised this as an issue. Even if intention is to not line up with = RTCWeb, could we redo the dodo to have a dates that cover a few = different weeks so people have a meaningful choice about dates. >>=20 >> Thanks, Cullen >>=20 >> On Nov 14, 2011, at 13:32 , Mary Barnes wrote: >>=20 >>> Hi all, >>>=20 >>> Please respond to the doodle if you have an interest in attending a >>> CLUE face to face interim meeting in February, 2011. We will meet >>> for two days (either 15-16, or 16-17) in Andover, Massachusetts >>> (closest airport is Boston). Logistics for the location are on the >>> CLUE WG wiki from the Oct. interim meeting. >>>=20 >>> If you can reply by Dec. 2nd , 2011 that will allow us to properly = plan. >>> http://doodle.com/d86zeaqng28eh3ie >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>> Mary. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> clue mailing list >>> clue@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>=20 From HKaplan@acmepacket.com Fri Nov 18 16:30:10 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3096B1F0C3B for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:30:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.113, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7-hJfINmdxNz for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:30:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from etmail.acmepacket.com (etmail.acmepacket.com [216.41.24.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 756831F0C36 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:30:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from MAIL2.acmepacket.com (10.0.0.22) by etmail.acmepacket.com (216.41.24.6) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.254.0; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 19:30:07 -0500 Received: from MAIL1.acmepacket.com ([169.254.1.232]) by Mail2.acmepacket.com ([169.254.2.157]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 19:30:07 -0500 From: Hadriel Kaplan To: "Duckworth, Mark" Thread-Topic: [clue] New Version Notification fordraft-hansen-clue-protocol-choices-evaluation-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHMplJjqKrQurfpLUalN+oBku8JRg== Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 00:30:06 +0000 Message-ID: <79D164DB-4F22-4A91-AFEE-1B2E44AD45FA@acmepacket.com> References: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A6102FA34B75B@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> In-Reply-To: <44C6B6B2D0CF424AA90B6055548D7A6102FA34B75B@CRPMBOXPRD01.polycom.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [216.41.24.34] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAWE= Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] New Version Notification fordraft-hansen-clue-protocol-choices-evaluation-00.txt X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 00:30:10 -0000 On Nov 17, 2011, at 9:29 PM, Duckworth, Mark wrote: > But, for something serial over UDP, we would be well advised to look at w= hat RTCWEB is doing for its data channel. (TCP over UDP is one possibility,= more or less, and SCTP over UDP is another.) > Moreoever, based on comments in joint ad hoc today, we may need to constr= ain ourselves to using *precisely* what RTCWEB uses so that its possible to= have an RTCWEB-based endpoint in a CLUE sesssion. It would definitely be *better* to do the same thing RTCWEB does for the da= ta channel, but I don't know if it would be *required* by the RAI Area/A-Ds= to do so. As an FYI, if I had to guess, I'd guess RTCWEB will end up doing SCTP over = DTLS over UDP. DTLS will probably be mandatory to use for every communicat= ion, not optional. > Section 5: >=20 > "for an independent protocol standard libraries can be used for the > transport protocol, and it would even be possible to create a CLUE > protocol library that could then be distributed, making adoption very > straightforward." >=20 > The options being explored by rtcweb don't all have this property, at lea= st not yet, though it is desired. And unfortunately there is no guarantee o= f that improving. (IIUC, Each browser implementation will provide an API fo= r web apps. But its possible there won't be a common library used for the i= mplementation in the browser.) I'm not sure I understand the above statement. Let's imagine CLUE goes wit= h TCP over UDP. TCP over UDP is not built into operating systems today, so= you have to add it somehow. No matter what you do in CLUE, different CLUE= implementors will have the choice of using common open-source TCP/UDP stac= ks, or writing one of their own. That's exactly what will also happen in R= TCWEB, whether they choose SCTP/DTLS/UDP or not. There will be an open-sou= rce stack available, but no one can force you to use it. > Section 7: >=20 > The issue of intermediaries inadvertently breaking things should not be s= uch a big problem if an appropriate manner of conveying the data in sip is = chosen. E.g. if an INFO package is used it should not be a problem. > OTOH, intermediaries may well advertently break the usage. But if so its = most likely at the specific direction of whoever configured the intermediar= y. In that case the solution is "if it hurts, don't do it".=20 > The intermediary can break any technique if it feels it should. > An important issue is not mentioned: sending potentially large messages t= hrough the sip signaling path can load down all the servers on the path. Or fail completely. :( -hadriel From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com Fri Nov 18 17:44:14 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 612D01F0C59 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:44:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.231 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.231 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.368, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TkxzuBY2epV1 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:44:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vx0-f172.google.com (mail-vx0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C4761F0C3B for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:44:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by vcbfy13 with SMTP id fy13so914532vcb.31 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:44:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GS3Dblr/477q/OOL2PVjkYUAD6cj43SD+psxzqt7dVE=; b=uGmyzUl7N0BiVoVvjmY2efZjV57aZnCDFArq7p2C+zVdFcGVJXBZv8u+pqP2FBJbAm tiauP4UlSxdoB+EyQiBZ0tWh6kuPhCySW7T0IrjbEk1hw48etsfNYtNmR9/SqOmFVgcV AEESO0GNPCOe5HaJQeyQYiROzJ6PmLFwQZ4cU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.33.140 with SMTP id r12mr6147310vdi.36.1321667052965; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:44:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.175.131 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:44:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <8A4B3F2B-752A-444B-91D8-749E7EF922B8@cisco.com> References: <3D85E249-00DE-4F4E-BEBF-AFA9FD71FAE5@cisco.com> <8A4B3F2B-752A-444B-91D8-749E7EF922B8@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 19:44:12 -0600 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: CLUE Subject: Re: [clue] Doodle for proposed Interim in Feb (15, 16, 17) X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 01:44:14 -0000 While I think this is a great idea, the current set of date choices for the CLUE WG meeting are based on the availability of the key contributors/document authors, one of whom is on vacation the last week of Jan and first week of Feb. The 2nd week of Feb is a 3GPP(CT1) meeting. We collided with them last time. If we go earlier in Jan, then it's really tight after the holidays for anyone to get docs updated, etc. Any later in Feb and then we're getting too close to the March meeting. So, I think it may be difficult to get dates that work for both groups, although it is a really good idea. Mary. On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > I'm proposing a 2 day clue meeting (or whatever length clue wants) immedi= ately followed by (or preceded by) a 1 or 2 day RTCWeb meeting. Mostly like= ly the RTCWeb meeting would be two days but there will be discussion with t= he list before that decision is made. The goal would be to make it possible= for people to attend both and hopefully encourage that - =A0there are clea= rly skill sets in both groups that the other group could benefit from. The = Clue folks would go and develop there agenda just as if the meeting was not= co-located with RTCWeb meeting and visa versa. > > My guess is that RTCWeb meeting would likely focus on the alternative pro= posals to the ROAP protocol along ROAP and then also have a big focus on se= curity framework and requirements for RTP sharing of UDP ports. Of course t= hat will be developed on RTCWeb list and we will have to see what drafts co= me in before hand. RTCWeb has also strongly avoided discussing the rings wh= ere there was no I-D but I understand CLUE is different in that regard so b= oth WG would deal with drafts, deadlines, agendas as they normally do. > > Cullen > > > On Nov 19, 2011, at 8:08 , Marshall Eubanks wrote: > >> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 6:39 PM, Cullen Jennings wrot= e: >>> >>> Before we announce these are the dates=85. I like to consider the possi= bility of aligning this with an RTCWeb meeting. Could we pick dates with co= njunction with RTCWeb so that we could have the meetings back to back ? >>> >> >> Dear Cullen; >> >> Are you proposing a 3 or 4 day meeting in Andover, Massachusetts ? >> >> Could we have a possible agenda of what we want to achieve with >> RTCWEB, and some drafts to read >> describing means of doing that, before we consider a 4-day joint meeting= ? >> >> Regards >> Marshall >> >>> I also think we should have the doodle proposed some dates that do not = require travel over valentines day. Many people I have spoken to have raise= d this as an issue. Even if intention is to not line up with RTCWeb, could = we redo the dodo to have a dates that cover a few different weeks so people= have a meaningful choice about dates. >>> >>> Thanks, Cullen >>> >>> On Nov 14, 2011, at 13:32 , Mary Barnes wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Please respond to the doodle if you have an interest in attending a >>>> CLUE face to face interim meeting in February, 2011. =A0 We will meet >>>> for two days (either 15-16, or 16-17) in Andover, Massachusetts >>>> (closest airport is Boston). =A0Logistics for the location are on the >>>> CLUE WG wiki from the Oct. interim meeting. >>>> >>>> If you can reply by Dec. 2nd , 2011 that will allow us to properly pla= n. >>>> http://doodle.com/d86zeaqng28eh3ie >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Mary. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> clue mailing list >>>> clue@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> clue mailing list >>> clue@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>> > > From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Fri Nov 18 18:11:23 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB001F0C3F for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:11:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.088, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6INLrSdosx8y for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:11:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yx0-f172.google.com (mail-yx0-f172.google.com [209.85.213.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD4A1F0C35 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:11:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by yenm7 with SMTP id m7so605156yen.31 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:11:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5aN4d9y3LqM+dvcbzWMykGyiOgXi2Tyxo/JAzdvCC2g=; b=LhPhWQnH6j2aO4qqyRz82G0cjtPuAw5mImQtOgujniRkf0rkPtyratISf+VRAGL2Tl c45CktiHgz8FyZModYivbBdyF+y1hdgbslElTQUdjFdXrp9a0LI+SsIALgBLUEltlNB/ rtSY6TK7SKl31yOyFv8ugHoEw7NTJvM6iJB6o= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.150.4 with SMTP id ue4mr1247954obb.74.1321668673991; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:11:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.159.73 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:11:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <8A4B3F2B-752A-444B-91D8-749E7EF922B8@cisco.com> References: <3D85E249-00DE-4F4E-BEBF-AFA9FD71FAE5@cisco.com> <8A4B3F2B-752A-444B-91D8-749E7EF922B8@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 21:11:13 -0500 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: CLUE Subject: Re: [clue] Doodle for proposed Interim in Feb (15, 16, 17) X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 02:11:23 -0000 Under these terms, I could support this. Of course, as Mary says, finding a suitable time may be another matter. Regards Marshall On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 7:23 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > I'm proposing a 2 day clue meeting (or whatever length clue wants) immedi= ately followed by (or preceded by) a 1 or 2 day RTCWeb meeting. Mostly like= ly the RTCWeb meeting would be two days but there will be discussion with t= he list before that decision is made. The goal would be to make it possible= for people to attend both and hopefully encourage that - =A0there are clea= rly skill sets in both groups that the other group could benefit from. The = Clue folks would go and develop there agenda just as if the meeting was not= co-located with RTCWeb meeting and visa versa. > > My guess is that RTCWeb meeting would likely focus on the alternative pro= posals to the ROAP protocol along ROAP and then also have a big focus on se= curity framework and requirements for RTP sharing of UDP ports. Of course t= hat will be developed on RTCWeb list and we will have to see what drafts co= me in before hand. RTCWeb has also strongly avoided discussing the rings wh= ere there was no I-D but I understand CLUE is different in that regard so b= oth WG would deal with drafts, deadlines, agendas as they normally do. > > Cullen > > > On Nov 19, 2011, at 8:08 , Marshall Eubanks wrote: > >> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 6:39 PM, Cullen Jennings wrot= e: >>> >>> Before we announce these are the dates=85. I like to consider the possi= bility of aligning this with an RTCWeb meeting. Could we pick dates with co= njunction with RTCWeb so that we could have the meetings back to back ? >>> >> >> Dear Cullen; >> >> Are you proposing a 3 or 4 day meeting in Andover, Massachusetts ? >> >> Could we have a possible agenda of what we want to achieve with >> RTCWEB, and some drafts to read >> describing means of doing that, before we consider a 4-day joint meeting= ? >> >> Regards >> Marshall >> >>> I also think we should have the doodle proposed some dates that do not = require travel over valentines day. Many people I have spoken to have raise= d this as an issue. Even if intention is to not line up with RTCWeb, could = we redo the dodo to have a dates that cover a few different weeks so people= have a meaningful choice about dates. >>> >>> Thanks, Cullen >>> >>> On Nov 14, 2011, at 13:32 , Mary Barnes wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Please respond to the doodle if you have an interest in attending a >>>> CLUE face to face interim meeting in February, 2011. =A0 We will meet >>>> for two days (either 15-16, or 16-17) in Andover, Massachusetts >>>> (closest airport is Boston). =A0Logistics for the location are on the >>>> CLUE WG wiki from the Oct. interim meeting. >>>> >>>> If you can reply by Dec. 2nd , 2011 that will allow us to properly pla= n. >>>> http://doodle.com/d86zeaqng28eh3ie >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Mary. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> clue mailing list >>>> clue@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> clue mailing list >>> clue@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>> > > From HKaplan@acmepacket.com Fri Nov 18 18:31:53 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0064111E8080 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:31:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.487 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.487 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.112, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GqQ3pDjlnCV4 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:31:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from etmail.acmepacket.com (etmail.acmepacket.com [216.41.24.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A54B821F846B for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:31:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from MAIL2.acmepacket.com (10.0.0.22) by etmail.acmepacket.com (216.41.24.6) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.254.0; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 21:31:49 -0500 Received: from MAIL1.acmepacket.com ([169.254.1.232]) by Mail2.acmepacket.com ([169.254.2.157]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 21:31:49 -0500 From: Hadriel Kaplan To: Mary Barnes Thread-Topic: [clue] Doodle for proposed Interim in Feb (15, 16, 17) Thread-Index: AQHMpmNjwss4ww+kRUmYQekBBCAXBA== Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 02:31:48 +0000 Message-ID: <61DE2B89-5649-430A-854F-8BB2724EE260@acmepacket.com> References: <3D85E249-00DE-4F4E-BEBF-AFA9FD71FAE5@cisco.com> <8A4B3F2B-752A-444B-91D8-749E7EF922B8@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [216.41.24.34] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAWE= Cc: CLUE Subject: Re: [clue] Doodle for proposed Interim in Feb (15, 16, 17) X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 02:31:53 -0000 What about January 23-27? Today's Nov 18th. The week of January 23-27 is the literal midpoint between this past week's = IETF meeting and the Paris one, I think. Even accounting for a week off fo= r the week of Thanksgiving, and a week off for Christmas/New Year's, you're= still talking about 7 full working weeks for people to work on docs if an = interim meeting were held the week of Jan 23-27. And that way they'd also = have 5 weeks after the interim for 00-draft submissions, and 6 weeks for ot= her draft submissions. BTW, if you have a CLUE meeting Feb 15-17, that will leave you with only 2 = weeks before the 00-draft submission deadline for IETF-83, and 3 weeks befo= re any draft submission deadline. =20 Just sayin'. -hadriel p.s. the issue with January 23-27 is it's Chinese new-years I hear. On Nov 18, 2011, at 8:44 PM, Mary Barnes wrote: > While I think this is a great idea, the current set of date choices > for the CLUE WG meeting are based on the availability of the key > contributors/document authors, one of whom is on vacation the last > week of Jan and first week of Feb. The 2nd week of Feb is a > 3GPP(CT1) meeting. We collided with them last time. If we go earlier > in Jan, then it's really tight after the holidays for anyone to get > docs updated, etc. Any later in Feb and then we're getting too close > to the March meeting. >=20 > So, I think it may be difficult to get dates that work for both > groups, although it is a really good idea. >=20 > Mary. >=20 > On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote= : >>=20 >> I'm proposing a 2 day clue meeting (or whatever length clue wants) immed= iately followed by (or preceded by) a 1 or 2 day RTCWeb meeting. Mostly lik= ely the RTCWeb meeting would be two days but there will be discussion with = the list before that decision is made. The goal would be to make it possibl= e for people to attend both and hopefully encourage that - there are clear= ly skill sets in both groups that the other group could benefit from. The C= lue folks would go and develop there agenda just as if the meeting was not = co-located with RTCWeb meeting and visa versa. >>=20 >> My guess is that RTCWeb meeting would likely focus on the alternative pr= oposals to the ROAP protocol along ROAP and then also have a big focus on s= ecurity framework and requirements for RTP sharing of UDP ports. Of course = that will be developed on RTCWeb list and we will have to see what drafts c= ome in before hand. RTCWeb has also strongly avoided discussing the rings w= here there was no I-D but I understand CLUE is different in that regard so = both WG would deal with drafts, deadlines, agendas as they normally do. >>=20 >> Cullen >>=20 >>=20 >> On Nov 19, 2011, at 8:08 , Marshall Eubanks wrote: >>=20 >>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 6:39 PM, Cullen Jennings wro= te: >>>>=20 >>>> Before we announce these are the dates=85. I like to consider the poss= ibility of aligning this with an RTCWeb meeting. Could we pick dates with c= onjunction with RTCWeb so that we could have the meetings back to back ? >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Dear Cullen; >>>=20 >>> Are you proposing a 3 or 4 day meeting in Andover, Massachusetts ? >>>=20 >>> Could we have a possible agenda of what we want to achieve with >>> RTCWEB, and some drafts to read >>> describing means of doing that, before we consider a 4-day joint meetin= g ? >>>=20 >>> Regards >>> Marshall >>>=20 >>>> I also think we should have the doodle proposed some dates that do not= require travel over valentines day. Many people I have spoken to have rais= ed this as an issue. Even if intention is to not line up with RTCWeb, could= we redo the dodo to have a dates that cover a few different weeks so peopl= e have a meaningful choice about dates. >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks, Cullen >>>>=20 >>>> On Nov 14, 2011, at 13:32 , Mary Barnes wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> Hi all, >>>>>=20 >>>>> Please respond to the doodle if you have an interest in attending a >>>>> CLUE face to face interim meeting in February, 2011. We will meet >>>>> for two days (either 15-16, or 16-17) in Andover, Massachusetts >>>>> (closest airport is Boston). Logistics for the location are on the >>>>> CLUE WG wiki from the Oct. interim meeting. >>>>>=20 >>>>> If you can reply by Dec. 2nd , 2011 that will allow us to properly pl= an. >>>>> http://doodle.com/d86zeaqng28eh3ie >>>>>=20 >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Mary. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> clue mailing list >>>>> clue@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> clue mailing list >>>> clue@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com Fri Nov 18 18:45:24 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8834111E8080 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:45:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.243 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.243 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.356, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 46tzDe7jp7ji for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:45:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vx0-f172.google.com (mail-vx0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 729D911E809B for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:45:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by vcbfy13 with SMTP id fy13so946276vcb.31 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:45:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KknIIYkIp1qx75Tzj7NDSqi9TN9GpLVzQL4rNsFwQ0k=; b=AR/K583uFqm7OYcRr4z6AtTntScMgpEPDI33T5qj1uJ0Am3hYVjf1KCLcvV9q1gx92 d/tp4XTn07K6bgXQ2v9mYu6lclRGUBrg2270fjL2A1ot4CAqqSP67cpyoMMhK87Pwa0I F2YBytPuGGKQMsShsN6kcEiK1AZGI/5WSR3sY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.34.207 with SMTP id b15mr6268982vdj.19.1321670722888; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:45:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.175.131 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:45:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <61DE2B89-5649-430A-854F-8BB2724EE260@acmepacket.com> References: <3D85E249-00DE-4F4E-BEBF-AFA9FD71FAE5@cisco.com> <8A4B3F2B-752A-444B-91D8-749E7EF922B8@cisco.com> <61DE2B89-5649-430A-854F-8BB2724EE260@acmepacket.com> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 20:45:22 -0600 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: Hadriel Kaplan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: CLUE Subject: Re: [clue] Doodle for proposed Interim in Feb (15, 16, 17) X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 02:45:24 -0000 That may work - the only concern with that week was that it's really close to after the holidays if you want docs updated enough before the meeting. I will update the CLUE doodle and see what the results are. Mary. On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Hadriel Kaplan wr= ote: > What about January 23-27? > > Today's Nov 18th. > The week of January 23-27 is the literal midpoint between this past week'= s IETF meeting and the Paris one, I think. =A0Even accounting for a week of= f for the week of Thanksgiving, and a week off for Christmas/New Year's, yo= u're still talking about 7 full working weeks for people to work on docs if= an interim meeting were held the week of Jan 23-27. =A0And that way they'd= also have 5 weeks after the interim for 00-draft submissions, and 6 weeks = for other draft submissions. > > BTW, if you have a CLUE meeting Feb 15-17, that will leave you with only = 2 weeks before the 00-draft submission deadline for IETF-83, and 3 weeks be= fore any draft submission deadline. > Just sayin'. > > -hadriel > p.s. the issue with January 23-27 is it's Chinese new-years I hear. > > > On Nov 18, 2011, at 8:44 PM, Mary Barnes wrote: > >> While I think this is a great idea, the current set of date choices >> for the CLUE WG meeting are based on the availability of the key >> contributors/document authors, one of whom is on vacation the last >> week of Jan and first week of Feb. =A0 The 2nd week of Feb is a >> 3GPP(CT1) meeting. =A0We collided with them last time. If we go earlier >> in Jan, then it's really tight after the holidays for anyone to get >> docs updated, etc. Any later in Feb and then we're getting too close >> to the March meeting. >> >> So, I think it may be difficult to get dates that work for both >> groups, although it is a really good idea. >> >> Mary. >> >> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Cullen Jennings wrot= e: >>> >>> I'm proposing a 2 day clue meeting (or whatever length clue wants) imme= diately followed by (or preceded by) a 1 or 2 day RTCWeb meeting. Mostly li= kely the RTCWeb meeting would be two days but there will be discussion with= the list before that decision is made. The goal would be to make it possib= le for people to attend both and hopefully encourage that - =A0there are cl= early skill sets in both groups that the other group could benefit from. Th= e Clue folks would go and develop there agenda just as if the meeting was n= ot co-located with RTCWeb meeting and visa versa. >>> >>> My guess is that RTCWeb meeting would likely focus on the alternative p= roposals to the ROAP protocol along ROAP and then also have a big focus on = security framework and requirements for RTP sharing of UDP ports. Of course= that will be developed on RTCWeb list and we will have to see what drafts = come in before hand. RTCWeb has also strongly avoided discussing the rings = where there was no I-D but I understand CLUE is different in that regard so= both WG would deal with drafts, deadlines, agendas as they normally do. >>> >>> Cullen >>> >>> >>> On Nov 19, 2011, at 8:08 , Marshall Eubanks wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 6:39 PM, Cullen Jennings wr= ote: >>>>> >>>>> Before we announce these are the dates=85. I like to consider the pos= sibility of aligning this with an RTCWeb meeting. Could we pick dates with = conjunction with RTCWeb so that we could have the meetings back to back ? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Dear Cullen; >>>> >>>> Are you proposing a 3 or 4 day meeting in Andover, Massachusetts ? >>>> >>>> Could we have a possible agenda of what we want to achieve with >>>> RTCWEB, and some drafts to read >>>> describing means of doing that, before we consider a 4-day joint meeti= ng ? >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Marshall >>>> >>>>> I also think we should have the doodle proposed some dates that do no= t require travel over valentines day. Many people I have spoken to have rai= sed this as an issue. Even if intention is to not line up with RTCWeb, coul= d we redo the dodo to have a dates that cover a few different weeks so peop= le have a meaningful choice about dates. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, Cullen >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 14, 2011, at 13:32 , Mary Barnes wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> Please respond to the doodle if you have an interest in attending a >>>>>> CLUE face to face interim meeting in February, 2011. =A0 We will mee= t >>>>>> for two days (either 15-16, or 16-17) in Andover, Massachusetts >>>>>> (closest airport is Boston). =A0Logistics for the location are on th= e >>>>>> CLUE WG wiki from the Oct. interim meeting. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you can reply by Dec. 2nd , 2011 that will allow us to properly p= lan. >>>>>> http://doodle.com/d86zeaqng28eh3ie >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Mary. >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> clue mailing list >>>>>> clue@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> clue mailing list >>>>> clue@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>>>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com Fri Nov 18 18:49:56 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC8F811E809D for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:49:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.25 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.25 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.349, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fDto9CMSiAnI for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:49:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vw0-f44.google.com (mail-vw0-f44.google.com [209.85.212.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9D2A11E8080 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:49:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by vbbfc26 with SMTP id fc26so903872vbb.31 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:49:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VJI7YHp+zglp2o0JM+Ktq/FbyQbSmlSQHJfCcJAoVEo=; b=YhXtjZGBx5IA2gD5Xv89NJeoIYSDKqc8oCymd4p5xEWMPoDL9XiLnguAex0OY4kaqQ IaYaU/GwD6a7jmCZ/Uni+cwMGCaO+TGmesHghgn6j1kORqpyyTkgKLkqnopg8r6z4+5j ShFAm5yMkLoTkBq4zj6gvh/+JiAJe1Gs4NbEY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.97.35 with SMTP id dx3mr6294953vdb.2.1321670995101; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:49:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.175.131 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:49:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <3D85E249-00DE-4F4E-BEBF-AFA9FD71FAE5@cisco.com> <8A4B3F2B-752A-444B-91D8-749E7EF922B8@cisco.com> <61DE2B89-5649-430A-854F-8BB2724EE260@acmepacket.com> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 20:49:55 -0600 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: Hadriel Kaplan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: CLUE Subject: Re: [clue] Doodle for proposed Interim in Feb (15, 16, 17) X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 02:49:56 -0000 Actually that won't work - that is the last (full) week of Jan that I was referring to the next week is what I was calling the 1st week of Feb and then the next week is the 3GPP meeting week. A week earlier is a remote possibility - I just thought it was way too soon after the holiday. I think we should work offline with the RTCWEB chairs, ADs, etc. to figure this out. And, we'll post back to both mailing lists what the plan might be. Thanks, Mary. On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 8:45 PM, Mary Barnes w= rote: > That may work - the only concern with that week was that it's really > close to after the holidays if you want docs updated enough before the > meeting. =A0I will update the CLUE doodle and see what the results are. > > Mary. > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Hadriel Kaplan = wrote: >> What about January 23-27? >> >> Today's Nov 18th. >> The week of January 23-27 is the literal midpoint between this past week= 's IETF meeting and the Paris one, I think. =A0Even accounting for a week o= ff for the week of Thanksgiving, and a week off for Christmas/New Year's, y= ou're still talking about 7 full working weeks for people to work on docs i= f an interim meeting were held the week of Jan 23-27. =A0And that way they'= d also have 5 weeks after the interim for 00-draft submissions, and 6 weeks= for other draft submissions. >> >> BTW, if you have a CLUE meeting Feb 15-17, that will leave you with only= 2 weeks before the 00-draft submission deadline for IETF-83, and 3 weeks b= efore any draft submission deadline. >> Just sayin'. >> >> -hadriel >> p.s. the issue with January 23-27 is it's Chinese new-years I hear. >> >> >> On Nov 18, 2011, at 8:44 PM, Mary Barnes wrote: >> >>> While I think this is a great idea, the current set of date choices >>> for the CLUE WG meeting are based on the availability of the key >>> contributors/document authors, one of whom is on vacation the last >>> week of Jan and first week of Feb. =A0 The 2nd week of Feb is a >>> 3GPP(CT1) meeting. =A0We collided with them last time. If we go earlier >>> in Jan, then it's really tight after the holidays for anyone to get >>> docs updated, etc. Any later in Feb and then we're getting too close >>> to the March meeting. >>> >>> So, I think it may be difficult to get dates that work for both >>> groups, although it is a really good idea. >>> >>> Mary. >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Cullen Jennings wro= te: >>>> >>>> I'm proposing a 2 day clue meeting (or whatever length clue wants) imm= ediately followed by (or preceded by) a 1 or 2 day RTCWeb meeting. Mostly l= ikely the RTCWeb meeting would be two days but there will be discussion wit= h the list before that decision is made. The goal would be to make it possi= ble for people to attend both and hopefully encourage that - =A0there are c= learly skill sets in both groups that the other group could benefit from. T= he Clue folks would go and develop there agenda just as if the meeting was = not co-located with RTCWeb meeting and visa versa. >>>> >>>> My guess is that RTCWeb meeting would likely focus on the alternative = proposals to the ROAP protocol along ROAP and then also have a big focus on= security framework and requirements for RTP sharing of UDP ports. Of cours= e that will be developed on RTCWeb list and we will have to see what drafts= come in before hand. RTCWeb has also strongly avoided discussing the rings= where there was no I-D but I understand CLUE is different in that regard s= o both WG would deal with drafts, deadlines, agendas as they normally do. >>>> >>>> Cullen >>>> >>>> >>>> On Nov 19, 2011, at 8:08 , Marshall Eubanks wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 6:39 PM, Cullen Jennings w= rote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Before we announce these are the dates=85. I like to consider the po= ssibility of aligning this with an RTCWeb meeting. Could we pick dates with= conjunction with RTCWeb so that we could have the meetings back to back ? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dear Cullen; >>>>> >>>>> Are you proposing a 3 or 4 day meeting in Andover, Massachusetts ? >>>>> >>>>> Could we have a possible agenda of what we want to achieve with >>>>> RTCWEB, and some drafts to read >>>>> describing means of doing that, before we consider a 4-day joint meet= ing ? >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> Marshall >>>>> >>>>>> I also think we should have the doodle proposed some dates that do n= ot require travel over valentines day. Many people I have spoken to have ra= ised this as an issue. Even if intention is to not line up with RTCWeb, cou= ld we redo the dodo to have a dates that cover a few different weeks so peo= ple have a meaningful choice about dates. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, Cullen >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 14, 2011, at 13:32 , Mary Barnes wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please respond to the doodle if you have an interest in attending a >>>>>>> CLUE face to face interim meeting in February, 2011. =A0 We will me= et >>>>>>> for two days (either 15-16, or 16-17) in Andover, Massachusetts >>>>>>> (closest airport is Boston). =A0Logistics for the location are on t= he >>>>>>> CLUE WG wiki from the Oct. interim meeting. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you can reply by Dec. 2nd , 2011 that will allow us to properly = plan. >>>>>>> http://doodle.com/d86zeaqng28eh3ie >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> Mary. >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> clue mailing list >>>>>>> clue@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> clue mailing list >>>>>> clue@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> clue mailing list >>> clue@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> >> > From christer.holmberg@ericsson.com Sat Nov 19 00:36:26 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5096021F8AEC for ; Sat, 19 Nov 2011 00:36:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.362 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.362 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.237, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QQQCSZXuQKAR for ; Sat, 19 Nov 2011 00:36:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (mailgw10.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F6B21F8ADE for ; Sat, 19 Nov 2011 00:36:23 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3d-b7c26ae0000035b9-03-4ec76a85de47 Received: from esessmw0191.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 2C.7A.13753.58A67CE4; Sat, 19 Nov 2011 09:36:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSCMS0356.eemea.ericsson.se ([169.254.2.99]) by esessmw0191.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.115.84]) with mapi; Sat, 19 Nov 2011 09:36:21 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: Mary Barnes , Hadriel Kaplan Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 09:36:20 +0100 Thread-Topic: [clue] Doodle for proposed Interim in Feb (15, 16, 17) Thread-Index: AcymZe2PwWkHG+pmTiO/cqjr4GERtgAL+VLQ Message-ID: <7F2072F1E0DE894DA4B517B93C6A05852C39BBF600@ESESSCMS0356.eemea.ericsson.se> References: <3D85E249-00DE-4F4E-BEBF-AFA9FD71FAE5@cisco.com> <8A4B3F2B-752A-444B-91D8-749E7EF922B8@cisco.com> <61DE2B89-5649-430A-854F-8BB2724EE260@acmepacket.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Cc: CLUE Subject: Re: [clue] Doodle for proposed Interim in Feb (15, 16, 17) X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 08:36:26 -0000 Hi Mary, I very much appretiate the fact that you try to avoid confliction with the = 3GPP meeting.=20 However, I am the only one affected by such collision, and if it causes pro= blems e.g. of having the CLUE and RTCWEB meetings b2b, from my perspective = you don't need to take the collision into account. Regards, Christer > -----Original Message----- > From: clue-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On=20 > Behalf Of Mary Barnes > Sent: 19. marraskuuta 2011 4:50 > To: Hadriel Kaplan > Cc: CLUE > Subject: Re: [clue] Doodle for proposed Interim in Feb (15, 16, 17) >=20 > Actually that won't work - that is the last (full) week of=20 > Jan that I was referring to the next week is what I was=20 > calling the 1st week of Feb and then the next week is the=20 > 3GPP meeting week. A week earlier is a remote possibility -=20 > I just thought it was way too soon after the holiday. >=20 > I think we should work offline with the RTCWEB chairs, ADs,=20 > etc. to figure this out. And, we'll post back to both=20 > mailing lists what the plan might be. >=20 > Thanks, > Mary. >=20 > On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 8:45 PM, Mary Barnes=20 > wrote: > > That may work - the only concern with that week was that=20 > it's really=20 > > close to after the holidays if you want docs updated enough=20 > before the=20 > > meeting. =A0I will update the CLUE doodle and see what the=20 > results are. > > > > Mary. > > > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Hadriel Kaplan=20 > wrote: > >> What about January 23-27? > >> > >> Today's Nov 18th. > >> The week of January 23-27 is the literal midpoint between=20 > this past week's IETF meeting and the Paris one, I think. =A0 Even accounting for a week off for the week of Thanksgiving, and > a week o= ff for Christmas/New Year's, you're still talking=20 > about 7 full working weeks for people to work on docs if an=20 > interim meeting were held the week of Jan 23-27. =A0And that=20 > way they'd also have 5 weeks after the interim for 00-draft=20 > submissions, and 6 weeks for other draft submissions. > >> > >> BTW, if you have a CLUE meeting Feb 15-17, that will leave=20 > you with only 2 weeks before the 00-draft submission deadline=20 > for IETF-83, and 3 weeks before any draft submission deadline. > >> Just sayin'. > >> > >> -hadriel > >> p.s. the issue with January 23-27 is it's Chinese new-years I hear. > >> > >> > >> On Nov 18, 2011, at 8:44 PM, Mary Barnes wrote: > >> > >>> While I think this is a great idea, the current set of=20 > date choices=20 > >>> for the CLUE WG meeting are based on the availability of the key=20 > >>> contributors/document authors, one of whom is on vacation=20 > the last=20 > >>> week of Jan and first week of Feb. =A0 The 2nd week of Feb is a > >>> 3GPP(CT1) meeting. =A0We collided with them last time. If we go=20 > >>> earlier in Jan, then it's really tight after the holidays=20 > for anyone=20 > >>> to get docs updated, etc. Any later in Feb and then we're getting=20 > >>> too close to the March meeting. > >>> > >>> So, I think it may be difficult to get dates that work for both=20 > >>> groups, although it is a really good idea. > >>> > >>> Mary. > >>> > >>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Cullen Jennings=20 > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I'm proposing a 2 day clue meeting (or whatever length=20 > clue wants) immediately followed by (or preceded by) a 1 or 2=20 > day RTCWeb meeting. Mostly likely the RTCWeb meeting would be=20 > two days but there will be discussion with the list before=20 > that decision is made. The goal would be to make it possible=20 > for people to attend both and hopefully encourage that - =A0 there are clearly skill sets in both groups that the other group > could be= nefit from. The Clue folks would go and develop there=20 > agenda just as if the meeting was not co-located with RTCWeb=20 > meeting and visa versa. > >>>> > >>>> My guess is that RTCWeb meeting would likely focus on=20 > the alternative proposals to the ROAP protocol along ROAP and=20 > then also have a big focus on security framework and=20 > requirements for RTP sharing of UDP ports. Of course that=20 > will be developed on RTCWeb list and we will have to see what=20 > drafts come in before hand. RTCWeb has also strongly avoided=20 > discussing the rings where there was no I-D but I understand=20 > CLUE is different in that regard so both WG would deal with=20 > drafts, deadlines, agendas as they normally do. > >>>> > >>>> Cullen > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Nov 19, 2011, at 8:08 , Marshall Eubanks wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 6:39 PM, Cullen Jennings=20 > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Before we announce these are the dates.. I like to=20 > consider the possibility of aligning this with an RTCWeb=20 > meeting. Could we pick dates with conjunction with RTCWeb so=20 > that we could have the meetings back to back ? > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Dear Cullen; > >>>>> > >>>>> Are you proposing a 3 or 4 day meeting in Andover,=20 > Massachusetts ? > >>>>> > >>>>> Could we have a possible agenda of what we want to achieve with=20 > >>>>> RTCWEB, and some drafts to read describing means of doing that,=20 > >>>>> before we consider a 4-day joint meeting ? > >>>>> > >>>>> Regards > >>>>> Marshall > >>>>> > >>>>>> I also think we should have the doodle proposed some=20 > dates that do not require travel over valentines day. Many=20 > people I have spoken to have raised this as an issue. Even if=20 > intention is to not line up with RTCWeb, could we redo the=20 > dodo to have a dates that cover a few different weeks so=20 > people have a meaningful choice about dates. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks, Cullen > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Nov 14, 2011, at 13:32 , Mary Barnes wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi all, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Please respond to the doodle if you have an interest in=20 > >>>>>>> attending a CLUE face to face interim meeting in=20 > February, 2011. =A0=20 > >>>>>>> We will meet for two days (either 15-16, or 16-17) in=20 > Andover,=20 > >>>>>>> Massachusetts (closest airport is Boston). =A0Logistics for the=20 > >>>>>>> location are on the CLUE WG wiki from the Oct.=20 > interim meeting. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> If you can reply by Dec. 2nd , 2011 that will allow=20 > us to properly plan. > >>>>>>> http://doodle.com/d86zeaqng28eh3ie > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>> Mary. > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> clue mailing list > >>>>>>> clue@ietf.org > >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> clue mailing list > >>>>>> clue@ietf.org > >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> clue mailing list > >>> clue@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > >> > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > = From Mary.Barnes@Polycom.com Mon Nov 21 14:14:43 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E51721F8880 for ; Mon, 21 Nov 2011 14:14:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=x tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JQq9iStNXbIl for ; Mon, 21 Nov 2011 14:14:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from Crpehubprd01.polycom.com (crpehubprd01.polycom.com [140.242.64.158]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4FAF21F85A8 for ; Mon, 21 Nov 2011 14:14:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from CRPMBOXPRD02.polycom.com ([fe80::b94b:feef:580:da7f]) by Crpehubprd01.polycom.com ([fe80::5efe:10.236.0.158%14]) with mapi; Mon, 21 Nov 2011 14:14:40 -0800 From: "Barnes, Mary" To: "clue@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 14:14:34 -0800 Thread-Topic: IETF CLUE - Liaison statement from ITU-T SG 12: [sp14-sg12-oLS-00139] (LS to inform about the ongoing work concerning Telepresence QoE in ITU-T SG12) Thread-Index: Acyfv0cWh/7RIj5VT+GsOrdBDBDF0AI25P2A Message-ID: <4483E11778CA964F9644B68621E1CA46844AB86F@CRPMBOXPRD02.polycom.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_004_4483E11778CA964F9644B68621E1CA46844AB86FCRPMBOXPRD02pol_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 14:15:49 -0800 Subject: [clue] FW: IETF CLUE - Liaison statement from ITU-T SG 12: [sp14-sg12-oLS-00139] (LS to inform about the ongoing work concerning Telepresence QoE in ITU-T SG12) X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 22:14:43 -0000 --_004_4483E11778CA964F9644B68621E1CA46844AB86FCRPMBOXPRD02pol_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4483E11778CA964F9644B68621E1CA46844AB86FCRPMBOXPRD02pol_" --_000_4483E11778CA964F9644B68621E1CA46844AB86FCRPMBOXPRD02pol_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Just FYI. This should have gone to the mailing list via the tool, but I do= n't recall seeing it. Regards, Mary CLUE WG co-chair. From: Scott, Sarah [mailto:sarah.scott@itu.int] Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 9:51 AM To: Barnes, Mary; pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu; statements@ietf.org Cc: TSBSG12, ITU Subject: IETF CLUE - Liaison statement from ITU-T SG 12: [sp14-sg12-oLS-001= 39] (LS to inform about the ongoing work concerning Telepresence QoE in ITU= -T SG12) Dear colleagues, At its meeting held Geneva, 31 October - 9 November 2011, ITU-T SG 12 agree= d to the attached liaison statement to be sent to IETF CLUE Working Group. [sp14-sg12-oLS-00139]: LS to inform about the ongoing work concerning Telep= resence QoE in ITU-T SG12 Best regards, ITU-T SG 12 --_000_4483E11778CA964F9644B68621E1CA46844AB86FCRPMBOXPRD02pol_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

 

Just FYI.  This should have gone to the m= ailing list via the tool, but I don’t recall seeing it.

 

Regards,

Mary

CLUE WG co-chair.<= o:p>

 

From: Scott, Sarah [mailto:sarah.scott@i= tu.int]
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 9:51 AM
To: = Barnes, Mary; pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu; statements@ietf.org
Cc: TSBS= G12, ITU
Subject: IETF CLUE - Liaison statement from ITU-T SG 12:= [sp14-sg12-oLS-00139] (LS to inform about the ongoing work concerning Tele= presence QoE in ITU-T SG12)

 

Dear colleagues,

At its me= eting held Geneva, 31 October – 9 November 2011, ITU-T SG 12 agreed t= o the attached liaison statement to be sent to IETF CLUE Working Group.

 

[sp= 14-sg12-oLS-00139]: LS to inform about the ongoing work concerning Telepres= ence QoE in ITU-T SG12

Best regards,

ITU-T SG 12

 

 = ;

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fluffy@cisco.com Wed Nov 23 13:34:17 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1652C1F0C44; Wed, 23 Nov 2011 13:34:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.476 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.476 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.123, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VqsMa1EZ-1Kw; Wed, 23 Nov 2011 13:34:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-1.cisco.com (mtv-iport-1.cisco.com [173.36.130.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498951F0C42; Wed, 23 Nov 2011 13:34:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=fluffy@cisco.com; l=621; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1322084056; x=1323293656; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:message-id: cc:to:mime-version; bh=31H7TuFgeIV2usE1T7VRFjlXwyLZKjRNkSyN3OGqab8=; b=P18gYlXSSlqQok2DlkAyvk+I0LlYKJxDV1QCzIv5V8b1r23SFx4DLXnq DzC9skhEnqhh3nlFsC30/O8xiZ+QVr7FaxsYMbjEoSDAljotyyTygBBUj o0i43fRa34SavIfLdUZ+xA3ntLAmcEbn7GSJU4Bnut0v/SgavpVqFPRWA 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvwEAK9mzU6rRDoG/2dsb2JhbABEqnOBBYILASc/gT4BNIdrlh0BniuJf2MEiCCMKIU/jGs X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,561,1315180800"; d="scan'208";a="14259302" Received: from mtv-core-1.cisco.com ([171.68.58.6]) by mtv-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Nov 2011 21:34:16 +0000 Received: from [192.168.4.100] (sjc-fluffy-8914.cisco.com [10.20.249.165]) by mtv-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pANLYFWD032112; Wed, 23 Nov 2011 21:34:15 GMT From: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 14:34:15 -0700 Message-Id: <909A627D-7B7F-4139-B7DF-87BB810840EC@cisco.com> To: rtcweb@ietf.org, public-webrtc@w3.org, CLUE Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: Ted Hardie Subject: [clue] Poll for date / location for RTCWeb Interim meeting X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 21:34:17 -0000 We have 5 different dates to choose from and three locations to choose = from. The last date set proposed has only one location, Boston, so it = could be aligned with the proposed CLUE meeting. This would mean, = however, that it would be very close to the deadline for drafts for IETF = 83. Please mark you preferred dates / locations as green "yes", make ones = that you would come to but not preferred as yellow "(Yes)", and the ones = where you would not come as red "No". This poll will close at the end of the day Dec 2. http://www.doodle.com/mivaxme6zwgrd5dy Thanks,=20 Cullen, Magnus, & Ted