From nobody Sat Oct 3 05:45:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC891A1B21 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 2015 05:45:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ttsl8IpZaVS7 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 2015 05:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 396381A1B1F for ; Sat, 3 Oct 2015 05:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A23D6205F0 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 2015 08:45:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1 ([10.202.2.160]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 03 Oct 2015 08:45:17 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h=cc :content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=mesmtp; bh=3+sgm NoNjP9yjSGmvqF8206Rc4A=; b=F01Hl2TZ/hYjZv61zgcCHX0PyxBZX+obzKpuv MSJkDGb+UcFcaSjZTIAsva+F7Gws69BgB6NrKdOeV1C0MBHU59VnotxxcrcSWMR3 F3Qv6CNhqYLl3NAIDENmR/Lo8yL4lOJksDJZm+poEltBuI5StHTzIrMX+TQeG/31 reeDJc= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc :x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=3+sgmNoNjP9yjSGmvqF8206Rc4A=; b=tvM1f EHBzS07dA/puB7/Ap4CBoOkuYQOXMis+yPenJtvhJ/EXIERj5RMcQSzEQLZ8+194 Fym8SWQxB7tohpwBV1gFMlMlPIt99BlUXml9iKNb4BYpzj5lbN7i+MJL700LsMD1 b7q++xsKS647I5za9Y1+sGUxlhAt+JUham5ZTA= X-Sasl-enc: hOpfCsKkJaURheTYtwIR3nqnqPbB3mWJT35X3kbnZvmy 1443876317 Received: from sjc-alcoop-8814.cisco.com (unknown [128.107.241.167]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 0F0ABC00013; Sat, 3 Oct 2015 08:45:16 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_002D37B1-F0FA-4A05-8411-0E2EA6E6370F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16C9E3807@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 05:45:15 -0700 Message-Id: <6D259027-12F9-4AE7-8E58-4F5729EEB2A1@cooperw.in> References: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16C9E3807@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> To: "Duckworth, Mark" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] New draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2015 12:45:22 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_002D37B1-F0FA-4A05-8411-0E2EA6E6370F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks for these updates. There are still a few points from my = evaluation concerning Section 15 that are outstanding. First, this text proposed by Roni did not make it into the draft: As described in section 5, CLUE uses SIP/SDP to establish the session prior to exchanging any CLUE specific information. Thus the security mechanisms recommended for SIP [RFC3261], including user authentication and authorization, MUST be supported. Furthermore, if the position of the WG is that it isn=E2=80=99t even = going to recommend the use of authentication, you at least need to = explain why, under what conditions, and the threats associated with = operating this way. =46rom my previous review: "In addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported. Media security is also discussed in [I-D.ietf-clue-signaling] and [I-D.ietf-clue-rtp-mapping]." I think it's worth pointing out in this document that DTLS/SRTP is = required to use for CLUE-controlled m-lines. Also, I just did a quick = skim of draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping and didn't see anything in there = about media security. "Thus, it MUST be possible for the endpoints to establish a channel which is secure against both message recovery and message modification. Further details on this are provided in the CLUE data channel solution document." There are no details about how the data channel is secured in = draft-ietf-clue-datachannel (which should be cited here if it's going to = be referenced). Nor are the details in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, = but rather they are in draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where they are described for rtcweb which = uses a different authentication model from clue. So how to do this = actually needs to be explained either here or in the clue data channel = document for clue specifically.=20 Thanks, Alissa > On Sep 24, 2015, at 3:04 PM, Duckworth, Mark = wrote: >=20 > Changes from 22 to 23: > 1. Updates to Security Considerations section. > 2. Update version number of references to other CLUE = documents in progress. > 3. Change some "MAY" to "may". > 4. Fix a few grammatical errors. > =20 > Mark > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue = --Apple-Mail=_002D37B1-F0FA-4A05-8411-0E2EA6E6370F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Thanks for these updates. There are still a = few points from my evaluation concerning Section 15 that are = outstanding.

First, this text proposed by Roni did not make it into the = draft:

As = described in section 5, CLUE uses SIP/SDP to establish the
   session prior to exchanging any CLUE specific = information. Thus
   the security mechanisms = recommended for SIP [RFC3261], including
  = user authentication and authorization, MUST be supported.

Furthermore, if the = position of the WG is that it isn=E2=80=99t even going to recommend the = use of authentication, you at least need to explain why, under what = conditions, and the threats associated with operating this = way.

=46rom my = previous review:

"In
  addition, the media is based on = RTP and thus existing RTP security
  mechanisms = SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported.
  Media security is also discussed in = [I-D.ietf-clue-signaling] and
  [I-D.ietf-clue-rtp-mapping]."

I think it's worth pointing out in this document that = DTLS/SRTP is required to use for CLUE-controlled m-lines. Also, I just = did a quick skim of draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping and didn't see anything = in there about media security.

"Thus, it MUST be possible for the = endpoints to establish
  a channel which is = secure against both message recovery and
  message= modification. Further details on this are provided in the
  CLUE data channel solution document."

There are no details about how the data = channel is secured in draft-ietf-clue-datachannel (which should be cited = here if it's going to be referenced). Nor are the details in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, but rather they are in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where = they are described for rtcweb which uses a different authentication = model from clue. So how to do this actually needs to be explained either = here or in the clue data channel document for clue = specifically. 

Thanks,
Alissa


On Sep 24, 2015, at 3:04 PM, Duckworth, Mark = <mark.duckworth@polycom.com> wrote:

Changes = from 22 to 23:
1.          &= nbsp; Updates to Security Considerations section.
2.          &= nbsp; Update version number of references to other CLUE documents in = progress.
3.          &= nbsp; Change some "MAY" to "may".
4.          &= nbsp; Fix a few grammatical errors.
 
Mark
_______________________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue

= --Apple-Mail=_002D37B1-F0FA-4A05-8411-0E2EA6E6370F-- From nobody Tue Oct 6 13:13:44 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88CA1B2A48 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2015 13:13:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JhtkljjMiTFc for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2015 13:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22e.google.com (mail-oi0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87B8E1B3239 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2015 13:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by oibi136 with SMTP id i136so115705769oib.3 for ; Tue, 06 Oct 2015 13:13:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=1Un/fgB8smV5YFMzZhj1d6jbrUHSAMxBjWLZIKKLHJI=; b=DjDKARVBuZUHIZX/L8CTYqIFnV6T6VCKdlmdn+27mA/YyFcpUGWOUIyfaVcexMfogV 58gU1ySyhdI+vvNPylNuVcVcIt/WPeFTP/N9Tp8TyI2sFyNf0rZjgHQvNVHcRHRNwmPe 7I8OiRIPrqlI7ctE7t2LWepiTZ2VLjPK9KBcV9YQXYuZ0JX/3JtMsoNPnaGpaAhboGrU HqCu3uivbiEYTIT4ZsepHCS/33Jq4qQZiMXm+DadWCHs3l66mn9yr4VMTIdIfEa2MPpg 6iYWEEVp/GpuX6uUo7d2L8hRAw64Uk/Pnrfdax9FiRe2FUMe9Ida1cZvFWCEzsahF8vk NtwQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.214.133 with SMTP id n127mr21223448oig.52.1444162420951; Tue, 06 Oct 2015 13:13:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.87.68 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Oct 2015 13:13:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 16:13:40 -0400 Message-ID: From: Daniel Burnett To: "clue@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113de216194ff60521754451 Archived-At: Subject: [clue] Who can review signaling draft X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2015 20:13:42 -0000 --001a113de216194ff60521754451 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Group, The chairs would like to start a WGLC on the signaling draft ASAP. If we set the deadline to be two weeks from tomorrow, who would be able to give a review? We would specifically like reviews from Mark, Paul, and Roni. Sanity checks by Simon and/or Roberta would be good as well. Others are, of course, welcome. -- dan --001a113de216194ff60521754451 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Group,

The chairs would like to start a= WGLC on the signaling draft ASAP.=C2=A0 If we set the deadline to be two w= eeks from tomorrow, who would be able to give a review?

We would specifically like reviews from Mark, Paul, and Roni.
Sanity checks by Simon and/or Roberta would be good as well.
<= br>
Others are, of course, welcome.

-- d= an

--001a113de216194ff60521754451-- From nobody Tue Oct 6 13:59:38 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBA7A1B332B for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2015 13:59:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.73 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.73 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YJMseOEhUOxx for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2015 13:59:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brc1.unina.it (brc1.unina.it [192.132.34.50]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EBD121B2E49 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2015 13:59:33 -0700 (PDT) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1444165171-05ce37710b168970001-dOUo1C Received: from smtp1.unina.it (smtp1.unina.it [192.132.34.61]) by brc1.unina.it with ESMTP id oUcPegTk618Ee0ZB (version=TLSv1 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 06 Oct 2015 22:59:31 +0200 (CEST) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: spromano@unina.it X-Barracuda-Apparent-Source-IP: 192.132.34.61 Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.70.10.217]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp1.unina.it (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id t96KxTNc023930 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 6 Oct 2015 22:59:30 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: [clue] Who can review signaling draft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E68A0861-B2BF-49DD-8044-93431C5EA0E6" From: Simon Pietro Romano In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 22:59:29 +0200 Message-Id: References: To: Daniel Burnett X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) X-Barracuda-Connect: smtp1.unina.it[192.132.34.61] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1444165171 X-Barracuda-Encrypted: AES256-SHA X-Barracuda-URL: http://192.132.34.50:8000/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at unina.it X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=6.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.3.23247 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.00 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message Archived-At: Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] Who can review signaling draft X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2015 20:59:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E68A0861-B2BF-49DD-8044-93431C5EA0E6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Count me in. Simon > On 06/ott/2015, at 22:13, Daniel Burnett = wrote: >=20 > Group, >=20 > The chairs would like to start a WGLC on the signaling draft ASAP. If = we set the deadline to be two weeks from tomorrow, who would be able to = give a review? >=20 > We would specifically like reviews from Mark, Paul, and Roni. > Sanity checks by Simon and/or Roberta would be good as well. >=20 > Others are, of course, welcome. >=20 > -- dan >=20 > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue _\\|//_ ( O-O ) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Simon Pietro Romano Universita' di Napoli Federico = II Computer Engineering Department=20 Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7683816 e-mail: spromano@unina.it <>. = Magritte. oooO ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ \ ( = ( ) \_) ) = / = (_/ --Apple-Mail=_E68A0861-B2BF-49DD-8044-93431C5EA0E6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Count me in.

Simon

On 06/ott/2015, at 22:13, = Daniel Burnett <danielcburnett@gmail.com> wrote:

Group,

The = chairs would like to start a WGLC on the signaling draft ASAP.  If = we set the deadline to be two weeks from tomorrow, who would be able to = give a review?

We would specifically like reviews from Mark, Paul, and = Roni.
Sanity checks by Simon and/or Roberta would = be good as well.

Others are, of course, welcome.

-- dan

_______________________________________________
clue = mailing list
clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue

  =                   =   =        = _\\|//_
            =                 =       ( O-O )
  =  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                =      = Simon Pietro Romano
      =          Universita' di Napoli = Federico II
          =            =  Computer Engineering Department 
  =            Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: = +39 081 7683816
          =                     =              e-mail: spromano@unina.it

    = <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento =C3=A8 l'alibi = degli 
   =  idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. = Magritte.
           =      =                   =    oooO
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( =   )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=                 =  \ (            (   )
=                 =                   \_) =          ) /
    =                     =                     =                     =        (_/






= --Apple-Mail=_E68A0861-B2BF-49DD-8044-93431C5EA0E6-- From nobody Thu Oct 8 03:27:13 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D8B51AD378 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 03:27:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hQb_HMoptiTo for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 03:27:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x230.google.com (mail-ob0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF0B61AD35F for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 03:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obbda8 with SMTP id da8so34748075obb.1 for ; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 03:27:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=3nCBX67pKKb27yBkXnsO9jy4RtUW4lHKzwRgn+r2es4=; b=O0wkycK2QCrznsgmObnsZ0FvEJJBkdUap3RLkn3OOKG1De6/tBbqJo40Ww9uzOpXo7 +B4IiOzwsqaA1YMdh9xt90oqKIgrveaSja/6Tk76FEaJQo9X7ztZPtXeCyco/bjGP9ay hTPGByrGYRYz3+v6iyfzVDhBWFVs/sbZ55ciEKUPMMwp1XkE1B5nP/zPQJ0VbzkG4IEt KiKJ0I0SC2aRLfLfiFQSx7tGGCML+0UeM91hBSS9wFk/Z4FNYn1XIvYg+uvBRxfmtTEX 2ex5ADX81fZy5/CKDJvL7A/kvDqVTF6vsE1BVhozaUQZxB+mWI6Y059jM6njoSbZD9Wq S5yw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.33.8 with SMTP id n8mr3777540obi.27.1444300031195; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 03:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.87.68 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 03:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 06:27:11 -0400 Message-ID: From: Daniel Burnett To: "clue@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01538cda4eff3d0521954e77 Archived-At: Subject: [clue] WGLC: draft-ietf-clue-signaling-06 - ends 21 October X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 10:27:13 -0000 --089e01538cda4eff3d0521954e77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 To all CLUE participants, I am officially starting a WGLC on the CLUE signaling draft. The end of this WGLC will be end of the day (wherever you are) on Wednesday October 21. That will leave us a couple of days that week to finalize the Yokohama agenda. If all is in order this will be the last review of this document by the WG before it goes to the ADs and the IESG. Now is the time for careful, thorough reviews of the full document. We would specifically like to ask Mark, Paul, and Roni to review. To help in planning, please respond to this message if you plan to submit a review. Thank you to Paul and Simon for volunteering already. -- dan (for all the chairs) --089e01538cda4eff3d0521954e77 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To all CLUE p= articipants,

= I am officially starting a WGLC on the CLUE signaling draft.=C2=A0 The end = of this WGLC will be end of the day (wherever you are) on Wednesday October= 21. That will leave us a couple of days that week to finalize the Yokohama= agenda.

If a= ll is in order this will be the last review of this document by the WG befo= re it goes to the ADs and the IESG.=C2=A0 Now is the time for careful, thor= ough reviews of the full document.=C2=A0 We would specifically like to ask = Mark, Paul, and Roni to review.=C2=A0

To help in planning, please respond to this messag= e if you plan to submit a review.=C2=A0Thank you to Paul and Simon for volunteering already.

-- dan
= (for all the chairs)
--089e01538cda4eff3d0521954e77-- From nobody Thu Oct 8 11:19:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 942981A0393 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 11:19:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 85bKPRUf-mRD for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 11:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.bemta7.messagelabs.com (mail1.bemta7.messagelabs.com [216.82.254.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CBF01A0397 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 11:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [216.82.254.19] by server-9.bemta-7.messagelabs.com id DD/A9-24814-8C3B6165; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 18:19:52 +0000 X-Env-Sender: Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com X-Msg-Ref: server-6.tower-96.messagelabs.com!1444328154!29199973!14 X-Originating-IP: [140.242.64.158] X-StarScan-Received: X-StarScan-Version: 6.13.16; banners=-,-,- X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 1610 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2015 18:17:06 -0000 Received: from crpehubprd01.polycom.com (HELO Crpehubprd01.polycom.com) (140.242.64.158) by server-6.tower-96.messagelabs.com with AES128-SHA encrypted SMTP; 8 Oct 2015 18:17:06 -0000 Received: from CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com ([fe80::9050:ae9:abfa:9da8]) by Crpehubprd01.polycom.com ([::1]) with mapi; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 11:16:39 -0700 From: "Duckworth, Mark" To: Daniel Burnett , "clue@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 11:16:38 -0700 Thread-Topic: [clue] WGLC: draft-ietf-clue-signaling-06 - ends 21 October Thread-Index: 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([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NA6Mkq4m0DFR for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 13:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.bemta7.messagelabs.com (mail1.bemta7.messagelabs.com [216.82.254.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 683DE1AC82C for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 13:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [216.82.254.19] by server-10.bemta-7.messagelabs.com id CE/CA-18741-D9CC6165; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 20:05:49 +0000 X-Env-Sender: Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com X-Msg-Ref: server-6.tower-96.messagelabs.com!1444334669!29223749!12 X-Originating-IP: [140.242.64.154] X-StarScan-Received: X-StarScan-Version: 6.13.16; banners=-,-,- X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 12073 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2015 20:05:18 -0000 Received: from crpehubprd02.polycom.com (HELO crpehubprd02.polycom.com) (140.242.64.154) by 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Wed Oct 14 14:21:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A37F91A898A for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:21:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Il5f9Dnkry2d for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resqmta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34CDE1A8983 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-ch2-09v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.105]) by resqmta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id V9Lq1r0042GyhjZ019MGCL; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 21:21:16 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([50.138.229.151]) by resomta-ch2-09v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id V9MF1r00N3Ge9ey019MGhk; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 21:21:16 +0000 To: clue@ietf.org References: From: Paul Kyzivat Message-ID: <561EC74B.6060100@alum.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 17:21:15 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1444857676; bh=anFK4IhpfPchc0jkJKREO/TLI8iAKOPwRx6fuen4b2s=; h=Received:Received:Subject:To:From:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=Dvd0R2ubwkQzBRRKwqI7U0IvMDqD/u4xaTWp8wzPCacQv7tvteuGg5QdNwjkInBeu gChmDxYzWj9yCZThC1mRTKqa86HdieGKyZwJg7DNsgFFpBDx449G5Fj3VCudV09c+D /8KrDjrxp3GHQOGUUQpgVor8ZkDO+x5fVZZuQDTBHX1alcRfJ/KPXfxdkLCh3bqGnw 4xuUmE9gHaXmNTvB9HkdxD+2yQTKkEHIdUuUFe7rTv++OnvqZ6G2I4C1Bfrdy15bh+ rpUvq+IUvmEQOe7KBidbXuKgqUeoKCIW5JHY98JJb0+5zBpLEnHZtWwbpCcIjD+kSp r8w/1jiTcyfuA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] WGLC: draft-ietf-clue-signaling-06 - ends 21 October X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 21:21:25 -0000 I'm in the midst of my detailed review. But I've discovered one thing I want to bring up first, because it makes it hard to complete my review. The example in section 8 has a call flow and a bunch of text explaining it. But the included flow doesn't seem to be consistent with the text. The flow shows clue message exchanges between offer and answer, which is contrary to what is recommended. And the text seems to refer to a different flow that doesn't have this problem. Did the text get updated for an improved flow, while the flow itself didn't get updated? Thanks, Paul On 10/8/15 6:27 AM, Daniel Burnett wrote: > To all CLUE participants, > > I am officially starting a WGLC on the CLUE signaling draft. The end of > this WGLC will be end of the day (wherever you are) on Wednesday October > 21. That will leave us a couple of days that week to finalize the > Yokohama agenda. > > If all is in order this will be the last review of this document by the > WG before it goes to the ADs and the IESG. Now is the time for careful, > thorough reviews of the full document. We would specifically like to > ask Mark, Paul, and Roni to review. > > To help in planning, please respond to this message if you plan to > submit a review. Thank you to Paul and Simon for volunteering already. > > -- dan > (for all the chairs) > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > From nobody Wed Oct 14 15:25:13 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17B0B1B2A10 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:25:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SXSkJ8rp9fqZ for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alum-mailsec-scanner-6.mit.edu (alum-mailsec-scanner-6.mit.edu [18.7.68.18]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 181611B29E1 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:25:08 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 12074412-f79a76d000007c8b-98-561ed6447b82 Received: from outgoing-alum.mit.edu (OUTGOING-ALUM.MIT.EDU [18.7.68.33]) by alum-mailsec-scanner-6.mit.edu (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 71.6E.31883.446DE165; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:25:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local (c-50-138-229-151.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [50.138.229.151]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as pkyzivat@ALUM.MIT.EDU) by outgoing-alum.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.12.4) with ESMTP id t9EMP7G1001926 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:25:08 -0400 To: CLUE From: Paul Kyzivat Message-ID: <561ED642.3000705@alum.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:25:06 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrNIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUixO6iqOtyTS7M4HE7r8X+U5eZHRg9liz5 yRTAGMVtk5RYUhacmZ6nb5fAnbH6/mfWgo/2FZeOTmNvYFxq2MXIySEhYCLRemkyK4QtJnHh 3nq2LkYuDiGBy4wSa+bNgHJ+M0n0dS9mA6kSEZCQOHXqLiOIzSagJTHn0H8WEFtYQFNi3/IV TCA2r4C2RNOW2WD1LAKqEh2Ll7GD2KICaRKHr31ghagRlDg58wlYL7OAmcS8zQ+ZIWx5ie1v 5zBPYOSdhaRsFpKyWUjKFjAyr2KUS8wpzdXNTczMKU5N1i1OTszLSy3SNdPLzSzRS00p3cQI CSihHYzrT8odYhTgYFTi4c1YLRsmxJpYVlyZe4hRkoNJSZS3+axcmBBfUn5KZUZicUZ8UWlO avEhRgkOZiURXu0NQDnelMTKqtSifJiUNAeLkjjvz8XqfkIC6YklqdmpqQWpRTBZGQ4OJQle yatAjYJFqempFWmZOSUIaSYOTpDhXFIixal5KalFiaUlGfGgGIsvBkYZSIoHaO/5KyB7iwsS c4GiEK2nGBWlxHnFQeYKgCQySvPgxsLSxCtGcaAvhXlVQKp4gCkGrvsV0GAmoMF7/suCDC5J REhJNTDGrlhg0XXaKo3/wtz/N2wUPthz8cdPeNUdPysu8kt2TNWpA14TdRUftTQ/2q7Mvk5+ wkyNo8ZaCzlqXIW3F63UjYiYPptB0nT35KW5v5f4XklQqd2s8qFCXfJibdzdTNsbi8IZr0jb qAkEZf/j5tnb+v9lj84/wY52rhXaZ0J+N5qcVX94lkWJpTgj0VCLuag4EQCKYVAb7gIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: [clue] WGLC comments on signaling draft X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 22:25:12 -0000 I went through the draft carefully today. In general it looks good and reads well. The comments I have are mostly editorial. I've skipped section 8 here, and will do it later. * General This document uses '"m" line'. RFC3264 and the bundle draft use '"m=" line'. We might want to align with that usage. * Section 1 CLUE involves two principal and inter-related protocol negotiations. I suggest s/involves/employs/. It just seems to be a more suitable word here. along with which Captures the far end provides a device wishes to receive. I think "provides a" is spurious and should be removed. Backwards-compatibility is an important consideration of the document: I think it would be more correct to use "protocol" rather than "document" here. * Section 4.1: I think there should be a reference to RFC5888 (the group attribute). * Section 4.2: The CLUE data channel [I-D.ietf-clue-datachannel] is a bidirectional SCTP over DTLS channel used for the transport of CLUE messages. This channel must be established before CLUE protocol messages can be exchanged and CLUE-controlled media can be sent. This isn't entirely accurate in its use of terminology. I suggest the following: The CLUE data channel [I-D.ietf-clue-datachannel] is a bidirectional data channel [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-data-channel] used for the transport of CLUE messages, conveyed within an SCTP over DTLS connection. This channel must be established before CLUE protocol messages can be exchanged and CLUE-controlled media can be sent. (And the reference added.) Or, could simply reduce what is said to: The CLUE data channel [I-D.ietf-clue-datachannel] is a bidirectional channel used for the transport of CLUE messages. This channel must be established before CLUE protocol messages can be exchanged and CLUE-controlled media can be sent. * Section 4.4.1: This means that media packets MUST NOT be sent until configuration is complete, while non-media packets such as STUN and DTLS MUST be sent as normal if negotiated. I think something should also be said about RTCP. Perhaps add another sentence: "RTCP MAY be sent as appropriate." Also, in FEC stream), in which case it MUST have the same label value as the "m" line on which it is dependent. I suggest s/is dependent/depends/ * Section 4.4.1.2 Presently, this specification mandates that CLUE-controlled "m" lines must be unidirectional. This is because setting "m" lines to ISTM that "Presently," doesn't help here. (*This* specification will never say otherwise.) So I suggest removing it. It is possible that in future versions of this draft or its successor this restriction will be relaxed. For the same reason, I suggest replacing this with: It is possible that in a revision of this document this restriction will be relaxed. Also, change the following: However, at present the need to express encode limitations and the wish to simplify the offer/answer procedure means that for the time being only unidirectional media lines are allowed for CLUE-controlled media. to: However, the need to express encode limitations and the wish to simplify the offer/answer procedure means that this specification requires unidirectional media lines fo CLUE-controlled media. * Section 4.4.2: There is no mention of what to do about label attributes for recvonly m-lines. I think the implication is that there is no use for a label here. (The Configure message references the label from the SDP of the advertiser.) It might be good to say something about this. * Section 4.5.2.2: If the initial offer contained "a=recvonly" CLUE-controlled media lines the recipient SHOULD include corresponding "a=sendonly" CLUE- controlled media lines, up to the maximum number of Encodings it wishes to advertise. This doesn't quite work if the recvonly media is incompatible with the media the answerer is prepared to provide. So I suggest rewording this as: If the initial offer contained "a=recvonly" CLUE-controlled media lines the recipient SHOULD include corresponding "a=sendonly" CLUE- controlled media lines for compatible encodings, up to the maximum number of Encodings it wishes to advertise. * Section 4.5.3.1: This references "BAS offer" in the bundle draft. But that concept has been removed from that draft. So this reference should be removed. * Section 4.5.4.1: Subsequent offer/answer exchanges MAY also deactive "m" lines for CLUE-controlled media. * Section 4.5.4.3: If, in an ongoing CLUE-enabled call, an SDP offer-answer negotiation completes in a fashion in which either the CLUE data channel was not successfully negotiated or one side did not include the data channel in a matching CLUE group then CLUE for this channel is disabled. s/CLUE for this channel/CLUE for this call/ s/deactive/deactivate/ * Section 5.1: The primary implication of this is that a device may receive an SDP with a CLUE Encoding it does not yet have capture information for, or receive a CLUE Configure message specifying a Capture Encoding for which the far end has not negotiated a media stream in SDP. The language seems a bit awkward. I suggest: The primary implication of this is that a device may receive an SDP with a CLUE Encoding for which it does not yet have capture information, or receive a CLUE Configure message specifying a Capture Encoding for which the far end has not negotiated a media stream in SDP. Later, s/specifcs/specifics/ Later there are references to named states and transitions in the clue protocol. These don't seem to be consistent with the current state machine definitions. * Section 5.3: The following is a bit awkward: ... For instance, an implementation that receives a new SDP offer with three new "a=sendonly" CLUE "m" lines that has not received the corresponding CLUE Advertisement providing the capture information for those streams SHOULD NOT include corresponding "a=recvonly" lines in its answer, but instead should make a new SDP offer when ... I suggest: ... For instance, an implementation that receives a new SDP offer with three new "a=sendonly" CLUE "m" lines for which it has received no CLUE Advertisement providing the corresponding capture information SHOULD include corresponding "a=inactive" lines in its answer, and should make a new SDP offer with "a=recvonly" when ... * Section 6: I think the following: The Captures that constitute these MCCs may or may not be defined in the Advertisement message. would be clearer if you replace "constitute" with "contribute to". * Section 7.2: ... there are several steps an implementation may wish to ameliorate the cost ... Above is missing some words: s/ameliorate/take to ameliorate/ * Section 7.2.2: Again, the reference to BAS is no longer valid. * Section 8: I'm deferring my review of this section. I sent a separate query about it, because the text seems inconsistent with the call flow. Until I have a call flow that is consistent with the text I can't do a meaningful review. * Section 11.1: The formatting of the table entry has been mangled. (It needs to go into an element.) Also, should probably have a reference to RFC5888 for specification of the registration template. * Section 11.2: Again, the formatting of the data has been mangled. Also, ASN.1 Identifier 1.3.6.1.8.4.26 is now taken. The next one available is now 29. (I suspect the assignment of the precise value ought to be left to IANA to avoid races like this. But I don't know if they consider than their responsibility.) * Section 14.2 I am no longer affiliated with Huawei. Please remove the affiliation from my info. Thanks, Paul From nobody Thu Oct 15 07:47:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 249711B3335 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 07:47:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tT6210kB-DM3 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 07:47:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFC9A1B327C for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 07:47:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3551; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444920457; x=1446130057; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4j4Lo2eme8kWlHDXW0Yn7n4Hq6HbPde7zAoyvfADH/Y=; b=Hqe7UDRL9FY80lXeDv30gJFuwN2hb5zeWapxHC8szCDHKe08eE23Mskh JtiCXNPCFq2mBlXgMH4JVijxBhBICrDFWmS/3nrqXpXjftSpxTQeqUI2i NOc976ritvRz8KfuGHLWfWqia4buL+wnNmSKl7p+nDYRaNaF4tzLUUR5O 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0CgBACfux9W/xbLJq1eg3puqGCWRBcKhXsCgX8BAQEBAQGBC4QnAQEEAQEBJBE2ChELGAkWDwkDAgECARUwEwYCAQGIKg3DOAEBAQEBBQEBAQEBGQSGL4VFgT2DVxeEFwEEhz2OXogJhRKBWIQ6gwGSfGOCEQ0QgVY9M4VnAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,686,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="605752150" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 15 Oct 2015 14:47:34 +0000 Received: from [10.47.200.89] ([10.47.200.89]) (authenticated bits=0) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9FElYVs016082 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 14:47:34 GMT Message-ID: <561FBC8F.3010805@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 15:47:43 +0100 From: Robert Hansen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clue@ietf.org References: <561EC74B.6060100@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <561EC74B.6060100@alum.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-User: rohanse2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] WGLC: draft-ietf-clue-signaling-06 - ends 21 October X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 14:47:39 -0000 Hi Paul, I agree with you that the flow in Section 8 shouldn't have the CONFIGURE/RESPONSE exchange inside the SDP exchange and I should definitely rearrange the messages to correct that (I think the contents of the messages are all valid though). However, I don't see a mismatch between the flow and the explaining text: they seem equally wrong to me (and consistent with each other). The first of the two relevant sections of the example is: | SIP INVITE 2 (+3 sendonly) | |--------------------------------->| | | | | | CLUE CONFIGURE 1 | |<*********************************| | | | | | CLUE RESPONSE 1 | |*********************************>| | | | | | SIP 200 OK 2 (+2 recvonly) | |<---------------------------------| | | While the opening lines of the corresponding text are: Alice now sends INVITE 2... Bob now has all the information he needs to decide which streams to configure. As such he now sends CONFIGURE 1... Alice receives Bob's message CONFIGURE 1 and sends RESPONSE 1... Bob now sends his SDP answer as part of 200 OK 2.... Which seem to match up. Or am I looking at the wrong thing? Rob On 14/10/15 22:21, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > I'm in the midst of my detailed review. But I've discovered one thing > I want to bring up first, because it makes it hard to complete my review. > > The example in section 8 has a call flow and a bunch of text > explaining it. But the included flow doesn't seem to be consistent > with the text. The flow shows clue message exchanges between offer and > answer, which is contrary to what is recommended. And the text seems > to refer to a different flow that doesn't have this problem. > > Did the text get updated for an improved flow, while the flow itself > didn't get updated? > > Thanks, > Paul > > On 10/8/15 6:27 AM, Daniel Burnett wrote: >> To all CLUE participants, >> >> I am officially starting a WGLC on the CLUE signaling draft. The end of >> this WGLC will be end of the day (wherever you are) on Wednesday October >> 21. That will leave us a couple of days that week to finalize the >> Yokohama agenda. >> >> If all is in order this will be the last review of this document by the >> WG before it goes to the ADs and the IESG. Now is the time for careful, >> thorough reviews of the full document. We would specifically like to >> ask Mark, Paul, and Roni to review. >> >> To help in planning, please respond to this message if you plan to >> submit a review. Thank you to Paul and Simon for volunteering already. >> >> -- dan >> (for all the chairs) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From nobody Thu Oct 15 08:49:42 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BCE01A89AC for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 08:49:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DWXOdXUqs2Op for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 08:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resqmta-po-02v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-po-02v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe16:19:96:114:154:161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83A781A01FC for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 08:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-po-05v.sys.comcast.net ([96.114.154.229]) by resqmta-po-02v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id VTo01r0034xDoy801Tpftp; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 15:49:39 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([50.138.229.151]) by resomta-po-05v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id VTpe1r0083Ge9ey01Tpewz; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 15:49:38 +0000 To: clue@ietf.org References: <561EC74B.6060100@alum.mit.edu> <561FBC8F.3010805@cisco.com> From: Paul Kyzivat Message-ID: <561FCB11.9080407@alum.mit.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 11:49:37 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <561FBC8F.3010805@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1444924179; bh=YXhlXcs3yXY9h/4NavCjMC4DsaIMVtXXDecgIFDWzmM=; h=Received:Received:Subject:To:From:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=JVAqPMzNQ2t+X1jCEjMyF7Wg8EGeAnqmS7rih5B/vP2ki0G+Eax+2BlNvB2bd/LBN JMHxhpWhHqtbhKqGox1y93uDrV57xpsK/NSwRgIUXPSgLRyBnxtm7+OXCB2L/Vp6Zk ChKDrE6Sdy+rtGsc1yK5ymbOhp0nA1HZKsfdU2d8WF5b9pKwdF6dVlIZuFn/HiYB0w bYMClNAD7t0/ZGqU+kjf4510yOtunCVB1/MlJ4txxB/5cJlDuZaypmKWVanZcuZH+L 2lwZdRoYpGI/+ynPPdvKQaggGA30n27VKSPlu17yHZDVyvHzg4o1qs2SmpZ1kpbVUV XLTdxX2EeN2RA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] WGLC: draft-ietf-clue-signaling-06 - ends 21 October X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 15:49:41 -0000 Rob, I'll look at it again, and give a concrete proposals for how to adjust to be more reasonable and consistent with the rules. I'll also comment about the places where the text seemed to be inconsistent with the flow. In any case, I already sent my comments on all the *other* sections of the doc. Thanks, Paul On 10/15/15 10:47 AM, Robert Hansen wrote: > Hi Paul, > > I agree with you that the flow in Section 8 shouldn't have the > CONFIGURE/RESPONSE exchange inside the SDP exchange and I should > definitely rearrange the messages to correct that (I think the contents > of the messages are all valid though). However, I don't see a mismatch > between the flow and the explaining text: they seem equally wrong to me > (and consistent with each other). The first of the two relevant sections > of the example is: > > | SIP INVITE 2 (+3 sendonly) | > |--------------------------------->| > | | > | | > | CLUE CONFIGURE 1 | > |<*********************************| > | | > | | > | CLUE RESPONSE 1 | > |*********************************>| > | | > | | > | SIP 200 OK 2 (+2 recvonly) | > |<---------------------------------| > | | > > > While the opening lines of the corresponding text are: > > Alice now sends INVITE 2... > > Bob now has all the information he needs to decide which streams to > configure. As such he now sends CONFIGURE 1... > > Alice receives Bob's message CONFIGURE 1 and sends RESPONSE 1... > > Bob now sends his SDP answer as part of 200 OK 2.... > > Which seem to match up. Or am I looking at the wrong thing? > > Rob > > On 14/10/15 22:21, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >> I'm in the midst of my detailed review. But I've discovered one thing >> I want to bring up first, because it makes it hard to complete my review. >> >> The example in section 8 has a call flow and a bunch of text >> explaining it. But the included flow doesn't seem to be consistent >> with the text. The flow shows clue message exchanges between offer and >> answer, which is contrary to what is recommended. And the text seems >> to refer to a different flow that doesn't have this problem. >> >> Did the text get updated for an improved flow, while the flow itself >> didn't get updated? >> >> Thanks, >> Paul >> >> On 10/8/15 6:27 AM, Daniel Burnett wrote: >>> To all CLUE participants, >>> >>> I am officially starting a WGLC on the CLUE signaling draft. The end of >>> this WGLC will be end of the day (wherever you are) on Wednesday October >>> 21. That will leave us a couple of days that week to finalize the >>> Yokohama agenda. >>> >>> If all is in order this will be the last review of this document by the >>> WG before it goes to the ADs and the IESG. Now is the time for careful, >>> thorough reviews of the full document. We would specifically like to >>> ask Mark, Paul, and Roni to review. >>> >>> To help in planning, please respond to this message if you plan to >>> submit a review. Thank you to Paul and Simon for volunteering already. >>> >>> -- dan >>> (for all the chairs) >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> clue mailing list >>> clue@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue > From nobody Thu Oct 15 08:51:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C3B1A9240 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 08:51:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NkOMEfQxi-cO for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 08:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DFC421A9150 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 08:51:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4713; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444924269; x=1446133869; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5Wd7eiMoUdBOqq179+SEhXZPW1yyrgkRshOKXYfLtBI=; b=MGqcDciV2M4RQmOb1bNCem6hyK/qNRBt931hXJpYor3cHIocQwpx79tE TEa2urJVlfpDhJDYwr6O8v1rIAYu8yN0eS9RSPjcbdZvZkoklF5aH9dcN EEIZVMR7kAYeeKHzwOiMDJ3H1mUAaqa9PRF8wLTZNervH5UIvTIo1xGAK w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0CgBAAFyx9W/xbLJq1eg3puqGCWRBcKhXsCggEBAQEBAQGBC4QnAQEEAQEBJBE2ChELGAkWDwkDAgECARUwEwYCAQGIKg3DQgEBAQEBBQEBAQEBGQSGL4VFgT2DV4QuAQSHPY5eiAmFEoFYhDqDAZJ8Y4IRDRCBVj0zhWcBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,686,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="605752997" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 15 Oct 2015 15:51:06 +0000 Received: from [10.47.200.89] ([10.47.200.89]) (authenticated bits=0) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9FFp68u021369 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 15:51:06 GMT Message-ID: <561FCB6A.8090900@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 16:51:06 +0100 From: Robert Hansen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clue@ietf.org References: <561EC74B.6060100@alum.mit.edu> <561FBC8F.3010805@cisco.com> <561FCB11.9080407@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <561FCB11.9080407@alum.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-User: rohanse2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] WGLC: draft-ietf-clue-signaling-06 - ends 21 October X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 15:51:11 -0000 Thanks, and yes, thanks very much for the review of the other sections. I'm currently planning to go through everyone's comments once the deadline comes and adjusting things accordingly. Rob On 15/10/15 16:49, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > Rob, > > I'll look at it again, and give a concrete proposals for how to adjust > to be more reasonable and consistent with the rules. I'll also comment > about the places where the text seemed to be inconsistent with the flow. > > In any case, I already sent my comments on all the *other* sections of > the doc. > > Thanks, > Paul > > On 10/15/15 10:47 AM, Robert Hansen wrote: >> Hi Paul, >> >> I agree with you that the flow in Section 8 shouldn't have the >> CONFIGURE/RESPONSE exchange inside the SDP exchange and I should >> definitely rearrange the messages to correct that (I think the contents >> of the messages are all valid though). However, I don't see a mismatch >> between the flow and the explaining text: they seem equally wrong to me >> (and consistent with each other). The first of the two relevant sections >> of the example is: >> >> | SIP INVITE 2 (+3 sendonly) | >> |--------------------------------->| >> | | >> | | >> | CLUE CONFIGURE 1 | >> |<*********************************| >> | | >> | | >> | CLUE RESPONSE 1 | >> |*********************************>| >> | | >> | | >> | SIP 200 OK 2 (+2 recvonly) | >> |<---------------------------------| >> | | >> >> >> While the opening lines of the corresponding text are: >> >> Alice now sends INVITE 2... >> >> Bob now has all the information he needs to decide which streams to >> configure. As such he now sends CONFIGURE 1... >> >> Alice receives Bob's message CONFIGURE 1 and sends RESPONSE 1... >> >> Bob now sends his SDP answer as part of 200 OK 2.... >> >> Which seem to match up. Or am I looking at the wrong thing? >> >> Rob >> >> On 14/10/15 22:21, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >>> I'm in the midst of my detailed review. But I've discovered one thing >>> I want to bring up first, because it makes it hard to complete my >>> review. >>> >>> The example in section 8 has a call flow and a bunch of text >>> explaining it. But the included flow doesn't seem to be consistent >>> with the text. The flow shows clue message exchanges between offer and >>> answer, which is contrary to what is recommended. And the text seems >>> to refer to a different flow that doesn't have this problem. >>> >>> Did the text get updated for an improved flow, while the flow itself >>> didn't get updated? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Paul >>> >>> On 10/8/15 6:27 AM, Daniel Burnett wrote: >>>> To all CLUE participants, >>>> >>>> I am officially starting a WGLC on the CLUE signaling draft. The >>>> end of >>>> this WGLC will be end of the day (wherever you are) on Wednesday >>>> October >>>> 21. That will leave us a couple of days that week to finalize the >>>> Yokohama agenda. >>>> >>>> If all is in order this will be the last review of this document by >>>> the >>>> WG before it goes to the ADs and the IESG. Now is the time for >>>> careful, >>>> thorough reviews of the full document. We would specifically like to >>>> ask Mark, Paul, and Roni to review. >>>> >>>> To help in planning, please respond to this message if you plan to >>>> submit a review. Thank you to Paul and Simon for volunteering already. >>>> >>>> -- dan >>>> (for all the chairs) >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> clue mailing list >>>> clue@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> clue mailing list >>> clue@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> >> _______________________________________________ >> clue mailing list >> clue@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >> > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From nobody Thu Oct 15 13:14:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A017A1A01A8 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:14:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9dbVCwWuA0tz for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resqmta-ch2-10v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-10v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E40DA1A01A5 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-ch2-08v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.104]) by resqmta-ch2-10v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id VYDg1r0092Fh1PH01YEWSa; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 20:14:30 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([50.138.229.151]) by resomta-ch2-08v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id VYEV1r00P3Ge9ey01YEWxW; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 20:14:30 +0000 From: Paul Kyzivat To: clue@ietf.org References: Message-ID: <56200924.4050409@alum.mit.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 16:14:28 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------020607020306090506090509" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1444940070; bh=0/D55gR29GE444LEJFz7VQeQkipfveUP3VrLjzlmkPY=; h=Received:Received:From:Subject:To:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=sDxZljNVtfckch0p1muofq5AGuj+qRTLPcEFC5BvPMqjmCKD8dojAZP30nnl2K3B/ zatPc8gMNhJLe92s6knY0HTlF6TkAIl9VBSrt4sYIuxSONyX5OlCXi9Xi/Ljy98N04 Zqv67/Gv0kRFtyP4/CN1QUBuBRJSKyFo4ezY18/wBBNu/j3xLpADgUbUsFXTnwvZjl P/l+ro/x9Y/0uD9q6Yare8bjOfe4LZAqVZx/oKuDox754gqjNKimy89XY96tHt9cjf zOovO3phTfq1hltkTOtANmibC8B80DIt6jGxoFjp3NScDm1Iyhwz3tczjI/8vqqxS8 9gLlDzL6Jmppw== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] WGLC: draft-ietf-clue-signaling-06 - section 8 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 20:14:33 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020607020306090506090509 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK. Here are my comments on Section 8. (I was mistaken about the text being inconsistent with the call flow.) * Section 8: In 2nd paragraph, s/snippet/snippets/ About the flow: The call flow shows INVITE 2 followed by a clue configure and response followed by 200 ok. This certainly encourages the inference that there is a dependency on doing the configure before sending the invite response. That is contrary to protocol requirements. (And the same holds for INVITE 3.) Of course this could just be coincidence without coupling. But I think it would be better to structure the flow to be more realistic. Also, there should be responses for the Advertisements. After the flow: In INVITE 1, Alice sends Bob a SIP INVITE including in the SDP body the basilar audio and video capabilities ... Do you really mean "basilar", or did you mean "basic"? (I find that basilar is indeed a word, new to me, but is it appropriate here? It seems to be strictly a medical term.) Then: ... Bob wishes to receive initial media, and so includes corresponding non-CLUE-controlled audio and video lines. ... The lines must be included regardless. So, s/includes/accepts the/ Then: Alice now sends her CLUE Advertisement (ADVERTISEMENT 1). ... Bob also sends his CLUE Advertisement (ADVERTISEMENT 2). This shows Alice's advertisement going first, and Bob's advertisement being sent after receiving Alice's. This is of course possible, but it may suggest that there is a cause/effect relationship. It would be good to at least mention that the decisions are independent. It might make sense to show the messages crossing on the wire, making it clear that they are independent. Later: s/Alices receives/Alice receives/ Later: you get to the point where Alice sends INVITE 2. At this point, both Alice and Bob need to update the SDP. There is potential for a race condition for who goes first. Why is it that Alice goes first, and Bob doesn't try before receiving Alice's reINVITE? It would be good to explain this. (Or simply state that this just of of several ways this might play out depending on timing.) Then: Bob now has all the information he needs to decide which streams to configure. As such he now sends CONFIGURE 1. ... I think it would be good to show the 200 for INVITE 2 prior to sending the Configure. This will make clear that the sip signaling not be delayed. Or just mention that they are both sent nearly concurrently. Then s/its receptions/its reception/ Then: Having received this Alice now has all the information she needs to send CONFIGURE 2. She requests the two static Captures from Bob, to be sent on Encodings "foo" and "bar". Again, I think it would be better to show the 200 for INVITE 3 before sending INVITE 3. Finally, there should probably be another O/A at the end to completely disable the non-clue media. (Maybe it would be interesting to show that one end keeps the non-clue media until the clue media is flowing, while the other end stops receiving the non-clue media as soon as it confirms this will be a clue call.) I've attached an attempt at a revised call flow consistent with my comments above. (This can no doubt be improved.) Thanks, Paul --------------020607020306090506090509 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; name="callflow-8.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="callflow-8.txt" +----------+ +-----------+ | Alice | | Bob | | | | | +----+-----+ +-----+-----+ | | | | | SIP INVITE 1 | |--------------------------------->| | | | | | SIP 200 OK 1 | |<---------------------------------| | | | | | SIP ACK 1 | |--------------------------------->| | | | | | | |<########### MEDIA 1 ############>| | 1 video A->B, 1 video B->A | |<################################>| | | | | | | |<================================>| | CLUE CTRL CHANNEL ESTABLISHED | |<================================>| | | | | | CLUE ADV 1 CLUE ADV 2 | |************** *************>| | * * | | * * | | ** | | ** | | * * | | * * | |<************ * | | ************>| | | | CLUE RESPONSE ADV 1 | |*********************************>| | | | | | CLUE RESPONSE ADV 2 | |<*********************************| | | | | | SIP INVITE 2 (+3 sendonly) | |--------------------------------->| | | | | | SIP 200 OK 2 (+2 recvonly) | |<---------------------------------| | | | | | SIP ACK 2 | |--------------------------------->| | | | | | CLUE CONFIGURE 1 | |<*********************************| | | | | | CLUE RESPONSE 1 | |*********************************>| | | | | | | |<########### MEDIA 2 ############>| | 2 video A->B, 1 video B->A | |<################################>| | | | | | SIP INVITE 3 (+2 sendonly) | |<---------------------------------| | | | | | SIP 200 OK 3 (+2 recvonly) | |--------------------------------->| | | | | | | | SIP ACK 3 | |<---------------------------------| | | | | | CLUE CONFIGURE 2 | |*********************************>| | | | | | CLUE RESPONSE 2 | |<*********************************| | | | | | | |<########### MEDIA 3 ############>| | 2 video A->B, 2 video B->A | |<################################>| | | | | | SIP INVITE 4 (no non-clue) | |<---------------------------------| | | | | | SIP 200 OK 4 (no non-clue) | |--------------------------------->| | | | | | SIP ACK 4 | |<---------------------------------| | | | | | | v v --------------020607020306090506090509-- From nobody Fri Oct 16 03:01:10 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C86791A010D for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 03:01:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z1Xio3uIy5UK for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 03:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D64971A0127 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 03:01:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=10676; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444989665; x=1446199265; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject:references: in-reply-to; bh=KKPet89sLyTr0S8S61+oIi8riLO2pZPMP7MKQlQ8BA8=; b=VRw2G0W/dkroeMcQtg6XC2mMjHVZ/a3zTDb99HyfT792mYF+3hPJ62UG IiZNPdUiYEJ/6NGnAHgqYrbVvglILj2kRyMIJj24s5+BDxssfuSKoDft9 oYGfW+h4SYW2AsaLlkYwvhRAHlqo85k/uTXXUgfRUBeFYTBss8HVht2L1 U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AcAgDzySBW/xbLJq1dg3puqH4BAQEBAQEFAYENk1ABDYFZFwEJhX0CgWwUAQEBAQEBAYEKhCYBAQEDAQEBAWsEBgYLCxgJFg8JAwIBAgEVMBMGAgEBiCIIDcMtAQEIAQEBARoEhi+FRYUIDIQuBYc/ixeDR4UZiAKBWIc7ijWISB8BAUKCER2BVj0zhB4GgUMBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,688,1437436800"; d="scan'208,217";a="612245834" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Oct 2015 10:01:03 +0000 Received: from [10.47.200.89] ([10.47.200.89]) (authenticated bits=0) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9GA13o9032405 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:01:03 GMT Message-ID: <5620CAE0.1040204@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:01:04 +0100 From: Robert Hansen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clue@ietf.org References: <56200924.4050409@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <56200924.4050409@alum.mit.edu> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060509040907030001020204" X-Authenticated-User: rohanse2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] WGLC: draft-ietf-clue-signaling-06 - section 8 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:01:09 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060509040907030001020204 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Will fix the call flow issue. On the subject of using the word 'basilar'... I got it from you :). The very first signaling draft to include a call flow example, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kyzivat-clue-signaling-01 , uses the phrase "the basilar audio and video capabilities", which has continued to be used in every subsequent update. Now that I check I can't find a sense where it makes sense either, and even if there is somewhere obscure definition that allows it the fact that two of the authors of the document aren't aware of it means we should change it anyway - I'll change it. Rob On 15/10/15 21:14, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > OK. Here are my comments on Section 8. (I was mistaken about the text > being inconsistent with the call flow.) > > * Section 8: > > In 2nd paragraph, s/snippet/snippets/ > > About the flow: The call flow shows INVITE 2 followed by a clue > configure and response followed by 200 ok. This certainly encourages > the inference that there is a dependency on doing the configure before > sending the invite response. That is contrary to protocol > requirements. (And the same holds for INVITE 3.) > > Of course this could just be coincidence without coupling. But I think > it would be better to structure the flow to be more realistic. > > Also, there should be responses for the Advertisements. > > After the flow: > > In INVITE 1, Alice sends Bob a SIP INVITE including in the SDP body > the basilar audio and video capabilities ... > > Do you really mean "basilar", or did you mean "basic"? (I find that > basilar is indeed a word, new to me, but is it appropriate here? It > seems to be strictly a medical term.) > > Then: > > ... Bob wishes to receive > initial media, and so includes corresponding non-CLUE-controlled > audio and video lines. ... > > The lines must be included regardless. So, s/includes/accepts the/ > > Then: > > Alice now sends her CLUE Advertisement (ADVERTISEMENT 1). > ... > Bob also sends his CLUE Advertisement (ADVERTISEMENT 2). > > This shows Alice's advertisement going first, and Bob's advertisement > being sent after receiving Alice's. This is of course possible, but it > may suggest that there is a cause/effect relationship. It would be > good to at least mention that the decisions are independent. It might > make sense to show the messages crossing on the wire, making it clear > that they are independent. > > Later: s/Alices receives/Alice receives/ > > Later: you get to the point where Alice sends INVITE 2. At this point, > both Alice and Bob need to update the SDP. There is potential for a > race condition for who goes first. Why is it that Alice goes first, > and Bob doesn't try before receiving Alice's reINVITE? It would be > good to explain this. (Or simply state that this just of of several > ways this might play out depending on timing.) > > Then: > > Bob now has all the information he needs to decide which streams to > configure. As such he now sends CONFIGURE 1. ... > > I think it would be good to show the 200 for INVITE 2 prior to sending > the Configure. This will make clear that the sip signaling not be > delayed. Or just mention that they are both sent nearly concurrently. > > Then s/its receptions/its reception/ > > Then: > > Having received this Alice now has all the information she needs to > send CONFIGURE 2. She requests the two static Captures from Bob, to > be sent on Encodings "foo" and "bar". > > Again, I think it would be better to show the 200 for INVITE 3 before > sending INVITE 3. > > Finally, there should probably be another O/A at the end to completely > disable the non-clue media. (Maybe it would be interesting to show > that one end keeps the non-clue media until the clue media is flowing, > while the other end stops receiving the non-clue media as soon as it > confirms this will be a clue call.) > > I've attached an attempt at a revised call flow consistent with my > comments above. (This can no doubt be improved.) > > Thanks, > Paul > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue --------------060509040907030001020204 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Will fix the call flow issue.

On the subject of using the word 'basilar'... I got it from you :). The very first signaling draft to include a call flow example, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kyzivat-clue-signaling-01 , uses the phrase "the basilar audio and video capabilities", which has continued to be used in every subsequent update. Now that I check I can't find a sense where it makes sense either, and even if there is somewhere obscure definition that allows it the fact that two of the authors of the document aren't aware of it means we should change it anyway - I'll change it.

Rob

On 15/10/15 21:14, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
OK. Here are my comments on Section 8. (I was mistaken about the text being inconsistent with the call flow.)

* Section 8:

In 2nd paragraph, s/snippet/snippets/

About the flow: The call flow shows INVITE 2 followed by a clue configure and response followed by 200 ok. This certainly encourages the inference that there is a dependency on doing the configure before sending the invite response. That is contrary to protocol requirements. (And the same holds for INVITE 3.)

Of course this could just be coincidence without coupling. But I think it would be better to structure the flow to be more realistic.

Also, there should be responses for the Advertisements.

After the flow:

   In INVITE 1, Alice sends Bob a SIP INVITE including in the SDP body
   the basilar audio and video capabilities ...

Do you really mean "basilar", or did you mean "basic"? (I find that basilar is indeed a word, new to me, but is it appropriate here? It seems to be strictly a medical term.)

Then:

   ...  Bob wishes to receive
   initial media, and so includes corresponding non-CLUE-controlled
   audio and video lines.  ...

The lines must be included regardless. So, s/includes/accepts the/

Then:

   Alice now sends her CLUE Advertisement (ADVERTISEMENT 1).
   ...
   Bob also sends his CLUE Advertisement (ADVERTISEMENT 2).

This shows Alice's advertisement going first, and Bob's advertisement being sent after receiving Alice's. This is of course possible, but it may suggest that there is a cause/effect relationship. It would be good to at least mention that the decisions are independent. It might make sense to show the messages crossing on the wire, making it clear that they are independent.

Later: s/Alices receives/Alice receives/

Later: you get to the point where Alice sends INVITE 2. At this point, both Alice and Bob need to update the SDP. There is potential for a race condition for who goes first. Why is it that Alice goes first, and Bob doesn't try before receiving Alice's reINVITE? It would be good to explain this. (Or simply state that this just of of several ways this might play out depending on timing.)

Then:

   Bob now has all the information he needs to decide which streams to
   configure.  As such he now sends CONFIGURE 1.  ...

I think it would be good to show the 200 for INVITE 2 prior to sending the Configure. This will make clear that the sip signaling not be delayed. Or just mention that they are both sent nearly concurrently.

Then s/its receptions/its reception/

Then:

   Having received this Alice now has all the information she needs to
   send CONFIGURE 2.  She requests the two static Captures from Bob, to
   be sent on Encodings "foo" and "bar".

Again, I think it would be better to show the 200 for INVITE 3 before sending INVITE 3.

Finally, there should probably be another O/A at the end to completely disable the non-clue media. (Maybe it would be interesting to show that one end keeps the non-clue media until the clue media is flowing, while the other end stops receiving the non-clue media as soon as it confirms this will be a clue call.)

I've attached an attempt at a revised call flow consistent with my comments above. (This can no doubt be improved.)

    Thanks,
    Paul 


_______________________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue

--------------060509040907030001020204-- From nobody Fri Oct 16 07:40:45 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BE6A1B2CA8 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 07:40:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1mrFhEUNWdDD for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 07:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resqmta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B6C21B2C90 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 07:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-ch2-20v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.116]) by resqmta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id VqgK1r0012XD5SV01qgiAa; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:40:42 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([50.138.229.151]) by resomta-ch2-20v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id Vqgi1r0013Ge9ey01qgiF2; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:40:42 +0000 To: clue@ietf.org References: <56200924.4050409@alum.mit.edu> <5620CAE0.1040204@cisco.com> From: Paul Kyzivat Message-ID: <56210C69.7020509@alum.mit.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:40:41 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5620CAE0.1040204@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1445006442; bh=mf1Gfk8tEbHTb9odqW62spYJXt/ZTlT8vTck1zOD9pk=; h=Received:Received:Subject:To:From:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=cREAejkIDUMhDjPWLGar8Xfm+mr+fmM2nuOSlbQoiLwOPSsqHpjal4c582y8GXRBU QPEFjoHTH4hI+MdKzebQCJDoL2faQ81O/cpR3zQtLpQNbnJUrCIsMxaSpiWMIlA7C4 BElYTLSFLxe7VQ5S9uvfGkw0HpXSOAXCEcI04gIHUA/8ANPru6zIq9kJAd2XXDHKXB gFzpdRx0TDUueEbA5Dc45lTDbJ5QGz38l94mA7O/PkFTrK6HKlx55hgkch7dbH1zE3 lIuEWL/4zfjL1nGl3BTCFsMUegn5fA1hcYh0GJON3Yq2jqu62LhC76VtACijk4GAh/ abzAVHTbX+PAw== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] WGLC: draft-ietf-clue-signaling-06 - section 8 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:40:44 -0000 On 10/16/15 6:01 AM, Robert Hansen wrote: > Will fix the call flow issue. > > On the subject of using the word 'basilar'... I got it from you :). The !?! I believe you, but that is odd, because I didn't even know what it meant during this review until I looked it up. Maybe somebody contributed that text to me. Thanks, Paul From nobody Fri Oct 16 08:08:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1EE91B311B for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 08:08:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WgVqsZl74mB1 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 08:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resqmta-ch2-07v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-07v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 111F31B311C for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 08:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-ch2-19v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.115]) by resqmta-ch2-07v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id Vr6s1r0022VvR6D01r8k2B; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 15:08:44 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([50.138.229.151]) by resomta-ch2-19v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id Vr8j1r00S3Ge9ey01r8kvG; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 15:08:44 +0000 To: clue@ietf.org References: <56200924.4050409@alum.mit.edu> <5620CAE0.1040204@cisco.com> <56210C69.7020509@alum.mit.edu> From: Paul Kyzivat Message-ID: <562112FA.6080201@alum.mit.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:08:42 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <56210C69.7020509@alum.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1445008124; bh=K64xjqe/tEClQSPGcScY/7LJx67+VeMYRCmcLkY5+gg=; h=Received:Received:Subject:To:From:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=T+x9WIorNLHBk3JK6YFeI20j3TcukhSQTI2Z8sJayo45d+mLd9+vM3UFL7wsr1+aO GyHh+ZaJGL4hKl1kmz6oh7EXhb3i9EKEEB5oc6NCF4o0bKutuHHwuTYysBYNuhAtYV FV0S1AgZ8OQQSnFzErG9QJ1xHAYQPYijOp90W8jotaSma5RKsYSqTdVs1o2R7/f1Zj 5S2bz+SHN002buV1bDI5FnzeVpPZES/jY00Gl1mU9Qa9ylZ8EY5tCOZXK6+GOJqdAh WkAO97cjIySACXQGoIcLIQNt++lsmKsHi3cCkNH1Nwc8vBfGmLmQAiqEoaSYXZiIoE 3f7g7TwgqK77g== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] WGLC: draft-ietf-clue-signaling-06 - section 8 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 15:08:45 -0000 On 10/16/15 10:40 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > On 10/16/15 6:01 AM, Robert Hansen wrote: >> Will fix the call flow issue. >> >> On the subject of using the word 'basilar'... I got it from you :). The > > !?! > > I believe you, but that is odd, because I didn't even know what it meant > during this review until I looked it up. > > Maybe somebody contributed that text to me. I just figured it out. It appeared in draft-kyzivat-clue-signaling-01. Those changes from -00 were contributed by Roberta and Simon. So it comes from Italian-English. :-) Thanks, Paul From nobody Fri Oct 16 11:00:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 378CC1B32A4 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:00:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FdcuRrjT1qno for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:00:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alum-mailsec-scanner-8.mit.edu (alum-mailsec-scanner-8.mit.edu [18.7.68.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB2C1B32BC for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:00:29 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 12074414-f794f6d000007852-68-56213b3d107e Received: from outgoing-alum.mit.edu (OUTGOING-ALUM.MIT.EDU [18.7.68.33]) by alum-mailsec-scanner-8.mit.edu (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 10.BC.30802.D3B31265; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:00:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local (c-50-138-229-151.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [50.138.229.151]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as pkyzivat@ALUM.MIT.EDU) by outgoing-alum.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.12.4) with ESMTP id t9GI0SL9000899 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:00:29 -0400 To: CLUE From: Paul Kyzivat Message-ID: <56213B3B.6030404@alum.mit.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:00:27 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrOIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUixO6iqGtrrRhm8G+bpMX+U5eZHRg9liz5 yRTAGMVtk5RYUhacmZ6nb5fAnXHh/l+2giuMFc/u7WFsYFzO2MXIySEhYCLxpeUXK4QtJnHh 3nq2LkYuDiGBy4wSk7/PZ4RwfjNJLP63lQmkSkRAQuLUqbtg3WwCWhJzDv1nAbGFBaQkvmw8 wwZi8wpoS3zte8oMYrMIqEpMndYEVi8qkCZx+NoHVogaQYmTM5+A9TILmEnM2/yQGcKWl9j+ dg7zBEbeWUjKZiEpm4WkbAEj8ypGucSc0lzd3MTMnOLUZN3i5MS8vNQiXQu93MwSvdSU0k2M kIAS2cF45KTcIUYBDkYlHl4GO4UwIdbEsuLK3EOMkhxMSqK8dy0Uw4T4kvJTKjMSizPii0pz UosPMUpwMCuJ8N61BMrxpiRWVqUW5cOkpDlYlMR5vy1W9xMSSE8sSc1OTS1ILYLJynBwKEnw RlkBNQoWpaanVqRl5pQgpJk4OEGGc0mJFKfmpaQWJZaWZMSDYiy+GBhlICkeoL11IO28xQWJ uUBRiNZTjLocC37cXsskxJKXn5cqJc7LAVIkAFKUUZoHtwKWPl4xigN9LMw7AaSKB5h64Ca9 AlrCBLRkz39ZkCUliQgpqQbG6NcCCQkTq26v/1Y3+br5dWuDPc/ylmjl7Zm5o83I+2qYt/Yz 9/QZEw3uukxIYr+VtPj3WYfLhpIv1jd8vPCx7PVKqbfB7fvk73fFLX372nPXlDWRzZt/3z/H 1Mr/xkptS8Q09aPVCfrHmD68nsXBx/3PONL+qeNHEV/1tW9eLQ/eIOhsXLRTVomlOCPRUIu5 qDgRAApufz/6AgAA Archived-At: Subject: [clue] CaptureID and RID X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 18:00:36 -0000 What is the relationship between the RID that is currently proposed in MMUSIC to the CaptureID RTP/RTCP extension? ISTM that they are very close, and could potentially be the same thing. Thanks, Paul From nobody Fri Oct 16 11:31:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F721A8AE7 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:31:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XVACP_QlsXgr for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x230.google.com (mail-ob0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0E4B1A8F3D for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obcqt19 with SMTP id qt19so19305323obc.3 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:31:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=XuZRhpBnUae+cTHnOBkuIlVadNoJNGrXGyRPmuuuZGw=; b=bSH3BQwStw7Jjx+YOyixRPL/Z51q9eykAfouQPUELlByT5jt9OegM3osjKznUpfetB G1k6jlf/GDbR3CByn9qlxUOwzAewfxrRg/6aGIS6J/Bgwxv92tfi2X9HtNi/afpCg3dY Ap55Pgp4Ozdm2mDe+4OF+mISaW4A+t7Htvs97xNJ6HTT005Bq7MFO7axDfeBxX2HF68y ltebKvIRPhUTPWlQVP5oU7Uo6VsMGjZKwgnxTYRl7zmoSebeZv1eMATXl25DO9GiToOV AwEuUhhuiOBjuMChcV46++8G8AUaSXoaZYP9J1nHZaTtTNRhm2s1RUwFpnnM9NWKR5H/ qwRw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.65.5 with SMTP id t5mr11100120obs.32.1445020282102; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.87.68 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:31:22 -0400 Message-ID: From: Daniel Burnett To: "clue@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b67383a9babc505223d00d3 Archived-At: Subject: [clue] Agenda topics? X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 18:31:24 -0000 --047d7b67383a9babc505223d00d3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Group, The chairs would like to post a first draft agenda on Monday. Are there any topics anyone would like time to discuss? I don't really want time spent on summaries, just on topics that still need face-to-face discussion time. -- dan (for the CLUE chairs) --047d7b67383a9babc505223d00d3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Group,

The chairs would like to post a = first draft agenda on Monday.=C2=A0 Are there any topics anyone would like = time to discuss?=C2=A0 I don't really want time spent on summaries, jus= t on topics that still need face-to-face discussion time.

-- dan (for the CLUE chairs)

--047d7b67383a9babc505223d00d3-- From nobody Sun Oct 18 10:39:41 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56A151AC3E2; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 10:39:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zkq_fl3X9KBM; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 10:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F7651AC3D6; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 10:39:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.6.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151018173939.13923.36075.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 10:39:39 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: [clue] I-D Action: draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping-05.txt X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 17:39:40 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the ControLling mUltiple streams for tElepresence Working Group of the IETF. Title : Mapping RTP streams to CLUE media captures Authors : Roni Even Jonathan Lennox Filename : draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping-05.txt Pages : 18 Date : 2015-10-18 Abstract: This document describes how the Real Time transport Protocol (RTP) is used in the context of the CLUE protocol. It also describes the mechanisms and recommended practice for mapping RTP media streams defined in SDP to CLUE media captures. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Oct 19 03:59:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C26F91A894A for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 03:59:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.78 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.78 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_OUTLOOK_TAGS=0.052, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_TAG_BALANCE_BODY=1.157, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_HTML_ATTACH=0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z-GLBWM--PRN for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 03:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x230.google.com (mail-qk0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 626581A8948 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 03:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkca6 with SMTP id a6so6566769qkc.3 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 03:59:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type :thread-index:content-language; bh=p8iNJhHZUBeVI5e6mdBDlZnjrzpwjegMYUvMnnnV4F8=; b=SKjceJkIPFfgkjmVysTou2RNqQ6jKPqHnJgIOPH3kIiTboqavLBZaMKAt9dtBx+Dxy IAHP5FrLI1euDq3hNv5aRj8jwn2SQ0XxKmxV62UJiG65eNdGKr4967xab6RSoBFXCAVG smOpfMdiemeTKACw21KCCe8anldf20ce4Rdo5D3jjbg6ubF6IWBMUTAObVoNkH/hup5N 7aPvtph6///tHGPVnAIrns10Y3pu1O+sazG/UwIxU5+ov4/pb/PdOReBBCKAQd0HwBVJ 4kie48VrykdG2za2kPbyMsC4cE/rutqqWxdSyAmgqWS+9vyQvArjCEariuzQ2NvuUvW7 NquA== X-Received: by 10.194.205.162 with SMTP id lh2mr31740296wjc.61.1445252355528; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 03:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from RoniPC (bzq-79-177-179-59.red.bezeqint.net. [79.177.179.59]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bh5sm39497738wjb.42.2015.10.19.03.59.13 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 19 Oct 2015 03:59:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roni Even" To: Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 13:59:11 +0300 Message-ID: <086a01d10a5d$30c0e800$9242b800$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_086B_01D10A76.560E9530" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AdEKXS86pdbyyx6RTZ62oihtvoVL/g== Content-Language: he Archived-At: Subject: [clue] CLUE initial agenda for IETF94 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:59:17 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_086B_01D10A76.560E9530 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_086C_01D10A76.560E9530" ------=_NextPart_001_086C_01D10A76.560E9530 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Please find the initial agenda for IETF94. Let the chairs know if you have other requests Thanks Roni ------=_NextPart_001_086C_01D10A76.560E9530 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

Please find the = initial agenda for IETF94.

Let the = chairs know if you have other requests

Thanks

Roni =

 

------=_NextPart_001_086C_01D10A76.560E9530-- ------=_NextPart_000_086B_01D10A76.560E9530 Content-Type: text/plain; name="c1510.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="c1510.txt" ControLling mUltiple streams for tElepresence (CLUE) Working Group =================================================================== CHAIRS: Daniel Burnett Roni Even Paul kyzivat AGENDA Wednesday, 4 November 2015 at 9:00-11:30 (413) ---------------------------------------------- 09:00 CLUE Status Update (Chairs, 20) 09:20 Status of CLUE protocol (Simon Romano, 10) draft-ietf-clue-protocol-04 09:30 CLUE Signaling (Rob Hansen, 15) draft-ietf-clue-signaling-06 09:45 Mapping RTP streams to CLUE media captures (Roni Even, 15) draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping-05 10:00 Usage of CLUE with Perc (Roni Even, 15) draft-groves-perc-clue-00 10:15 End ------=_NextPart_000_086B_01D10A76.560E9530 Content-Type: text/html; name="c1510.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="c1510.html" ControLling mUltiple streams for tElepresence (CLUE) Working = Group Agenda

ControLling mUltiple streams for = tElepresence (CLUE) Working Group Agenda

Chairs: Daniel Burnett , Roni Even = , Paul kyzivat =

Wednesday, 4 November 2015 at 9:00-11:30 (413)

09:00 CLUE Status UpdateChairs
09:20 Status of CLUE protocolSimon = Romano
draft-ietf-= clue-protocol-04
09:30 CLUE SignalingRob Hansen
draft-ietf= -clue-signaling-06
09:45 Mapping RTP streams to CLUE media capturesRoni Even
draft-ie= tf-clue-rtp-mapping-05
10:00 Usage of CLUE with PercRoni Even
draft-groves-= perc-clue-00
10:15 End
------=_NextPart_000_086B_01D10A76.560E9530-- From nobody Mon Oct 19 07:48:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D0BD1A21A0 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 07:48:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.168 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.168 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jJ--Gocf3A0s for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 07:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brc2.unina.it (brc2.unina.it [192.132.34.42]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B06D71A8877 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 07:47:57 -0700 (PDT) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1445266073-05f27504d0a18520001-dOUo1C Received: from smtp2.unina.it (smtp2.unina.it [192.132.34.62]) by brc2.unina.it with ESMTP id WRDESUF3iMY5I67x (version=TLSv1 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 19 Oct 2015 16:47:53 +0200 (CEST) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: spromano@unina.it X-Barracuda-Apparent-Source-IP: 192.132.34.62 Received: from [143.225.28.169] ([143.225.28.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp2.unina.it (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id t9JElqgg009522 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 19 Oct 2015 16:47:53 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: [clue] Rob's WGLC of the protocols draft Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: Simon Pietro Romano In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 16:47:54 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9B2B75EC-26B1-4D96-BAC0-E0B392B234B2@unina.it> References: To: "Rob Hansen (rohanse2)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) X-Barracuda-Connect: smtp2.unina.it[192.132.34.62] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1445266073 X-Barracuda-Encrypted: AES256-SHA X-Barracuda-URL: http://192.132.34.42:8000/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at unina.it X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=6.0 tests=BSF_SC0_MISMATCH_TO X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.3.23629 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.00 BSF_SC0_MISMATCH_TO Envelope rcpt doesn't match header Archived-At: Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] Rob's WGLC of the protocols draft X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 14:48:02 -0000 Hello Bob, we have finally managed to work on revising the protocol document. = Please find in-line some answers/comments to your comments. > On 18/lug/2015, at 04:19, Rob Hansen (rohanse2) = wrote: >=20 > Hi all, Simon, Roberta, > =20 > I=E2=80=99ve now reviewed the protocols document, and think the = schemas and protocol look solid and workable; I have a couple of minor = quibbles with the state machines that are probably worth discussion that = I=E2=80=99ll highlight here: > 1) We need a timeout for the =E2=80=98Wait for ADV=E2=80=99 state = (see comments on page 22); at present there=E2=80=99s no way for an MC = that doesn=E2=80=99t receive an ACK to give up. > 2) Generally I don=E2=80=99t see the utility of the retry count = mechanism when receiving NACKs for its ADV/CONF messages (see page 19). = I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to limit the sender from sending as many = new ADV/CONFs that may be more acceptable as they want, mandating it = must be different from any that have been NACKed since the last ACK, is = a better way to do it. Since the error codes generally mean the sender = has done something invalid sending a new message probably won=E2=80=99t = help and most implementations will move straight to the exit state on = receiving a NACK.=20 See below responses for the details... > Those were my only issues of note with the protocol. However, I did = have concerns with the level of normative direction that=E2=80=99s = provided as part of the document; I think it needs to be more rigorous = throughout in defining what a sender and receive should do when they = receive or construct messages; reading it through it was obvious to me = what everything was *meant* to do based on the names of the fields and = concepts common with other protocols, but RFCs are generally meant to be = written so that a hypothetical robot with no prior experience could = read it and its references and go ahead and implement a working system. = I=E2=80=99ve called specific instances out below where I could identify = areas I thought needed more rigor. Am happy to review it again for new = language or maybe even to go through myself and revise the document with = more normative language if you two didn=E2=80=99t have the time or = inclination. That would be much appreciated, indeed! > The remaining issues are minor schema niggles, spelling or grammar = notes and a note that an overall security section is probably required. = Specific issues are listed at the end of the email. > =20 > As per not attending the previous IETF my role at work has = transitioned to the point where I=E2=80=99m much less involved with the = design of new standards so I=E2=80=99m also not attending the current = IETF in person and won=E2=80=99t be in the future until and unless my = role shifts again. I=E2=80=99ll be attending the CLUE session virtually, = though, and I=E2=80=99m still committed to finishing the CLUE work (As = soon as the WGLC for the protocol document finishes and the initial = discussions shake out I=E2=80=99ll be updating the signalling document = ready for WGLC). Have fun in Prague, all; I enjoyed all the IETFs = attended and will definitely miss them! It's a pity you're not going to participate in person. Hope to see you = again soon! Thanks a lot for your precious review! Simon > =20 > Rob > =20 > Specific issues: > =20 > Page 3: > "enabling a MP" - should be "enabling an MP" > "enabling a MC" - should be "enabling an MC" > "protocol messages are detailed in Section 4 The CLUE Participant" - = should have a full stop afer '4' > MP and MC are used without bhaving been previously defined OK. All of these have been amended. > Page 4: > List of endpoint types is almost but not quite alphabetically ordered. > "a synonymous of Capture Encoding." - should be "a synonym of Capture = Encoding." > "flow on a realiable and ordered" - should be "flow on a reliable and = ordered=E2=80=9D Fixed. > Page 5: > "the CPs are able" - "CP" is used without having been defined > "A mechanism for the negotiation of the CLUE protocol version and = extensions is envisioned in the initiation phase" - such a mechanism has = been defined elsewhere in the document; I don't think 'envisioned' is = the right word; "is part of the initial phase", maybe? > "Indeed, being CPs A and B both transmitting and receiving, it is = possible to distinguish between two dialogues:" - I find this sentence = difficult to parse. This is also the first reference to A and B, so they = require introduction. Something like "In many cases CPs will seek to = both transmit and receive media. Hence in a call between two CPs, A and = B, there would be two seperate dialogs, as follows:=E2=80=9D Fixed. > Page 7: > "sequenceNr" - I cannot find where in the document the rules for using = the sequence number are made explicit (eg, the sender must increment the = sequence numbers by one for each new message sent, the receiver must = remember the most recent sequence number received and send a 401 error = if it receives a message with an unexpected sequence number, etc). Sentence added to the definition of the =E2=80=9CsequenceNr=E2=80=9D = message field. > I think "sequenceNr" should be of type positiveInteger, not = unsignedInt; it's not a hard requirement, but generally sequence numbers = must be non-zero in most protocols and I think we should stick to the = convention. Fixed. > "clueId" - Similarly, I cannot find any rules for constructing the = clueId or what should be done with it. There are no rules, indeed. It is a generic string associated with the = CLUE participant. We added this as a parenthetical clarification inside = the =E2=80=9CclueId=E2=80=9D explanation in Section 4. > "Each CP should manage up to three streams of sequence numbers: (i) = one for the messages exchanged in the initiation phase, (ii) one for the = messages exchanged as MP, and (iii) one for the messages exchanged as = MC." - this is the only guidance currently on using the sequence = numbers; when more details are provided this should be moved there. The = fact that these sequence number streams are independent is important and = quite easy for an implementation to get wrong, so it should probably be = repeated in the sections on sending the OPTIONS, ADV and CONF messages = where these independent streams are used. We simply modified the first sentence in the following way: "Each CP should manage up to three (independent) streams of sequence = numbers=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D > Page 10: > "Only one element SHOULD be provided for each major version = supported" - is there a reason to not make this a MUST? > At present there's no explicit normative language mandating including = key elements for non-error cases. I think this must be stated = normatively, something like "If the responseCode is of the type 2xx the = response MUST include , , and = elements; it MAY include them for any other response = code.". The sentence ""These two elements are optional in the OPTIONS = RESPONSE since, in case of error response code, the CR might not want to = add further information besides the response code and the reason = string." then becomes unnecesary. Text modified accordingly in section 4.2. > Whether the OPTIONS handling behaviour is defined (here on in the = state machine) the sections on versioning and extensions should be = referenced. > =20 > Page 11: > "During the telepresence session, the ADV can be sent from the MP both = periodically and on a per-event basis, i.e., each time there are changes = in the MP's CLUE telepresence capabilities." - This seems slightly = unclear to me at present; something like "During a single CLUE session, = an MP may send new ADV messages to replace the previously advertised = options, if, for instance, its media CLUE telepresence capabilities = change mid-call." > Either here, in the MC state machine, or both, we need to make clear = that a new ADV completely invalidates the previous ADV. Fixed. Last sentence (=E2=80=9C A new ADV completely invalidates the = previous ADV.) also inserted at the end of the paragraph > Page 13: > "The element SHOULD not be present at all if an ACK message has = been already sent back to the MP." - I can't see a reason not to make = this a MUST. The words "at all" are also probably unnecessary. > "a piggibacking mechanism" - this should be "a piggybacking = mechanism=E2=80=9D Both fixed. > Page 15: > "Response codes beginning with "1" could be associated to temporary = responses." - we don't have any 1xx codes yet; I think until we do this = should either be removed or be made more definitive: "will be", not = "could be" (though I'd phrase it "represent a delayed or incomplete = response=E2=80=9D). Fixed (use of future tense, plus re-phrasing). > Page 16: > "a DTLS/SCTP channel established as depicted in = [I-D.ietf-clue-signaling]" - draft-ietf-clue-datachannel, not = draft-ietf-clue-signaling > "Over such a channel there are typically two CLUE streams between the = channel terminations flowing in opposite directions. In other words, = typically, both channel terminations act simultaneously as a MP and as a = MC." - I'd move this to after "and with the MP process.", and rephrase = it as something like "Endpoints often wish to both send a receiver = media, ie, act as both MP and MC. As such there will often be two sets = of messages flowing in opposite directions; the state machines of these = two flows do not interact with each other.=E2=80=9D Fixed. > "When in the OPTIONS state..." - this paragraph describes the flow of = the options state well, but I think we need two small explicit state = machines drawn out for it. > "The initiation phase might fail because of one of the following = reasons..." - This list doesn't include failing because of a major = version mismatch. Wouldn=E2=80=99t this be an error message with a 400 (=E2=80=9Cversion = not supported=E2=80=9D) response code? > Generally I think this part needs to be made more normative: the = behaviour of the OPTIONS receivers should be defined with success and = error cases for both the OPTIONS sender and receiver. This should also = reference the rules for constructing the version numbers in the OPTIONS = RESPONSE section > as a reminder, or else the definition should be moved here. > =20 > Page 17: > Similarly, the rules on acting as an MP/MC based on the OPTIONS = negotiation should be made explicit (eg, only if A has advertised as MP = and B has responded as MC) > =20 > Page 19: > Defaults/guidance on timeout and retry thresholds are required > " if a CONF+ACK message arrives" - CONF+ACK should be defined here as = a CONFIGURE message with the element set to TRUE. > "CONF+ACK messages referring to out-of-date ADVs MUST be ignored" - = one of the sections that needs to have more rigerous sequence number = language - "out of date" must be defined as having a sequence number = equal to or less than the highest seen so far. Fixed. > "the number of NACKs for the issued ADV is under the retry threshold = ("NACK received && retry not expired"), the MP moves back to the ADV = state for preparing a new ADV" - I'm not sure the retry threshold = concept refelcts how implementations can successfully overcome NACKS. I = think we may do better with a concept like "the MP MAY return to the ADV = state and send a new ADV (with an incremented sequence number) that it = judges may be more acceptable to the MC. The MP MUST NOT return to the = ADV state if it will send an ADVERTISEMENT with values (excepting the = sequence number) identical to one that has received a NACK response = subsequent to the most recent ACK received. If the MP does not have a = new ADVERTISEMENT candidate that may be more acceptable it MUST move to = the MP TERMINATED state.=E2=80=9D I don=E2=80=99t think the two sentences express the same concept. The = proposed modification does not impose any limit on the number of retries = an MP can play with. Do we really want to remove the threshold? > "If the MP is fine with the MC's configuration" - "is fine with" = should be something like "successfully processes=E2=80=9D. Fixed. > I would also remove the retry threshold on the Conf processing section = and just wait to die based on the timeout or the far end giving up. See my comment above (related to the threshold concept)=E2=80=A6 > Explicit behaviour needs to be defined for what actually happens when = the Established or MP TERMINATED states are reached (reference the = signaling doc for the former and the data channel doc for the latter). > =20 > Page 22: > "Wait for ADV" does not have a timeout and currently has no way to = reach the MC TERMINATED state except by receiving the requisite number = of bad ADVs; there needs to be a defined way for the MC to give up if = the far end never sends it an ADV. The idea is that =E2=80=9CWAIT FOR ADV=E2=80=9D is the "listening" state = for a MC. You stay there until the MP-triggered negotiation of a CLUE = session starts. If this happens, you terminate the state machine in case the MP sends you a sequence of = (> MAX RETRIES) bad ADVs. > We currently have two paths once an ADV is received; either send an = ACK, move to the CONF state and later send a CONF or send a CONF+ACK. If = we feel we need both then we need to provide guidance as to which to do; = the only reason I can see to keep both is something like "If the MC can = send a CONF+ACK immediately it MAY do so

. If it cannot send the CONF+ACK immediately it MUST = immediately send an ACK and move to the CONF state
.=E2=80=9D I think this is quite intuitive and would prefer to leave the choice of = which path to follow to specific protocol implementations. > We should also be explicit about the CONF/CONF+ACK messages: a = CONF+ACK MUST have the element set to true, while a CONF message = MUST NOT have the element set to true. We explicitly state that the CONF+ACK MUST have the ACK bit set. I give = for granted that in the case of a plain CONF message the same does not = apply. > Again, would suggest removing the the "retry expired" concept and = mandate that MCs must only send a new CONF if they can change to be more = likely to be accepted and have a timeout. I am personally in favor of the max retries mechanism, in conjunction = with timeouts. We=E2=80=99re obviously open to modifications, in case = the group converges on=20 the approach you suggest. > Again, need explicit guidance on what actually happens when the = Established or MC TERMINATED states are reached. We talk about this in the CLUE Participant=E2=80=99s State Machine=E2=80=9D= section: "The CP moves from the ACTIVE state to the IDLE one when the sub-state = machines that have been activated are (both) in the relative TERMINATED = state.=E2=80=9D TERMINATED means that you, as a generic CLUE Participant, go back to the = IDLE state. ESTABLISHED means that you're done with negotiations and = you're ready to exchange date across your telepresence session. Do we = really need to go further into details in the protocol document? > =20 > Page 23: > "error CONF RESPONSE received && retry not expired, timeout && retry = not expired" - "retry not expired" is specified twice here These are two different cases. In the former case, you get back an error = message and hence go back to the state where you can prepare a brand new = CONF message. In the latter case, you sent a CONF but did not get any = answer. > "timeout && retry expired" - "retry expired" is covered under "error = CONF RESPONSE received && retry expired", this should just be timeout. "Retry expired" is when you throw the towel in and go to the "MC = TERMINATED" state. > Page 24: > "CLUE protocol messages are XML messages compliant to the CLUE = protocol XML schema" - may be worth referencing the data model document = again here. OK. > "Such a schema is the one included in the yet to come RFC" - this is = no longer true, and should be covered by the reference above. > "The version of the XML schema contained in the standard document = deriving from this draft will be 1.0" - again, this is covered by the = data model doc and no longer needed here. > Do we still need the section on pre-standardisation interop? > =20 > Page 26: > Somewhere we need normative language on how two endpoints actually = negotiate and use an extension. > =20 > Pages 31-43 > I have not gone through and reviewed the examples against the schemas; = if these examples were auto-generated from up-to-date versions of the = schemas then there should be no need. On the other hand if they were = written by hand then let me know and I'll go through and review them. The examples should be coherent with the information contained in the = schema file. Most of the XML code snippets have been automatically = generated. > The document seems to be missing an overall Security Considerations = section, which I believe is mandatory. Yep. We'll have to work on this section. All input is more than welcome, = btw. Cheers, Simon > =20 > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue _\\|//_ ( O-O ) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Simon Pietro Romano Universita' di Napoli Federico = II Computer Engineering Department=20 Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7683816 e-mail: spromano@unina.it <>. = Magritte. oooO ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ \ ( = ( ) \_) ) = / = (_/ From nobody Mon Oct 19 08:16:24 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E23A51ACC83 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 08:16:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.73 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.73 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cZXy3ICFd4Cb for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 08:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brc2.unina.it (brc2.unina.it [192.132.34.42]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E5291AC3CA for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 08:16:21 -0700 (PDT) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1445267779-05f27504d1a1a990001-dOUo1C Received: from smtp2.unina.it (smtp2.unina.it [192.132.34.62]) by brc2.unina.it with ESMTP id 3Jv5zAZtpgG7EkyG (version=TLSv1 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:16:19 +0200 (CEST) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: spromano@unina.it X-Barracuda-Apparent-Source-IP: 192.132.34.62 Received: from [143.225.28.169] ([143.225.28.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp2.unina.it (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id t9JFGIq6012952 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:16:18 +0200 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4C2E4BAE-67C8-430C-8DF4-F75F400B1FD4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: Simon Pietro Romano X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: [clue] A few more data model/protocol issues In-Reply-To: <55C20C95.4070008@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:16:19 +0200 Message-Id: <43686A76-679A-4026-ACE8-F09BC617DD63@unina.it> References: <55C20C95.4070008@cisco.com> To: Robert Hansen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) X-Barracuda-Connect: smtp2.unina.it[192.132.34.62] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1445267779 X-Barracuda-Encrypted: AES256-SHA X-Barracuda-URL: http://192.132.34.42:8000/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at unina.it X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=6.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.3.23629 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.00 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message Archived-At: Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] A few more data model/protocol issues X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 15:16:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4C2E4BAE-67C8-430C-8DF4-F75F400B1FD4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hello again Bob, > In the data model the encoding ID is 'encID' in encodingIDListType = but 'encodingID' in captureEncodingType. Is there a reason for this = inconsistency? >=20 > In the protocol document, the MP state machine, on sending a new ADV, = moves from ESTABLISHED to ADV and then on to WAIT FOR ACK. In contrast, = the MC state machine, on sending a new CONF, moves from ESTABLISHED = straight to WAIT FOR CONF RESPONSE. Either way is fine but we should = probably be consistent. Indeed, in the MP state machine, you go from ESTABLISHED to ADV in case = you had already created a CLUE session and some of the settings have = changed. In that case, you need to start everything from scratch. In the = MC=E2=80=99s case, if you have an already established session = (ESTABLISHED state) and you want to modify it somehow, you simply send a = new CONF message and wait for the provider=E2=80=99s answer (WAIT FOR = CONF RESPONSE). Don=E2=80=99t you agree with this logic? Simon >=20 > Rob >=20 > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue >=20 _\\|//_ ( O-O ) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Simon Pietro Romano Universita' di Napoli Federico = II Computer Engineering Department=20 Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7683816 e-mail: spromano@unina.it <>. = Magritte. oooO ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ \ ( = ( ) \_) ) = / = (_/ --Apple-Mail=_4C2E4BAE-67C8-430C-8DF4-F75F400B1FD4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hello again Bob,

In the data model the encoding = ID is  'encID' in encodingIDListType but 'encodingID' in = captureEncodingType. Is there a reason for this inconsistency?

In the protocol document, the MP state = machine, on sending a new ADV, moves from ESTABLISHED to ADV and then on = to WAIT FOR ACK. In contrast, the MC state machine, on sending a new = CONF, moves from ESTABLISHED straight to WAIT FOR CONF RESPONSE. Either = way is fine but we should probably be consistent.

Indeed, in the = MP state machine, you go from ESTABLISHED to ADV in case you had already = created a CLUE session and some of the settings have changed. In that = case, you need to start everything from scratch. In the MC=E2=80=99s = case, if you have an already established session (ESTABLISHED state) and = you want to modify it somehow, you simply send a new CONF message and = wait for the provider=E2=80=99s answer (WAIT FOR CONF RESPONSE). Don=E2=80= =99t you agree with this logic?


Simon


Rob

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  =                   =   =        = _\\|//_
            =                 =       ( O-O )
  =  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                =      = Simon Pietro Romano
      =          Universita' di Napoli = Federico II
          =            =  Computer Engineering Department 
  =            Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: = +39 081 7683816
          =                     =              e-mail: spromano@unina.it

    = <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento =C3=A8 l'alibi = degli 
   =  idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. = Magritte.
           =      =                   =    oooO
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( =   )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=                 =  \ (            (   )
=                 =                   \_) =          ) /
    =                     =                     =                     =        (_/






= --Apple-Mail=_4C2E4BAE-67C8-430C-8DF4-F75F400B1FD4-- From nobody Mon Oct 19 09:12:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D4751A87E2 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 09:12:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.73 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.73 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Id9PYtBphYWH for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 09:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brc1.unina.it (brc1.unina.it [192.132.34.50]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A45F1A87BB for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 09:12:04 -0700 (PDT) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1445271120-05ce37710bab1650001-dOUo1C Received: from smtp1.unina.it (smtp1.unina.it [192.132.34.61]) by brc1.unina.it with ESMTP id FeEsBJD9kvTHOtDA (version=TLSv1 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 19 Oct 2015 18:12:00 +0200 (CEST) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: spromano@unina.it X-Barracuda-Apparent-Source-IP: 192.132.34.61 Received: from [143.225.28.169] ([143.225.28.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp1.unina.it (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id t9JGBxKl022767 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 19 Oct 2015 18:12:00 +0200 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_91F0F534-AF7F-49EC-9371-C9A628891D81" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: Simon Pietro Romano X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: [clue] Mark's WGLC comments on protocol-04 In-Reply-To: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52F9BEA2A972B@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 18:12:01 +0200 Message-Id: References: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52F9BEA2A972B@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> To: "Duckworth, Mark" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) X-Barracuda-Connect: smtp1.unina.it[192.132.34.61] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1445271120 X-Barracuda-Encrypted: AES256-SHA X-Barracuda-URL: http://192.132.34.50:8000/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at unina.it X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.82 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.82 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=6.0 tests=BSF_SC0_MISMATCH_TO, HTML_MESSAGE, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE_2 X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.3.23630 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.00 BSF_SC0_MISMATCH_TO Envelope rcpt doesn't match header 0.00 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.00 MIME_QP_LONG_LINE RAW: Quoted-printable line longer than 76 chars 0.82 MIME_QP_LONG_LINE_2 RAW: Quoted-printable line longer than 76 chars Archived-At: Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] Mark's WGLC comments on protocol-04 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 16:12:10 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_91F0F534-AF7F-49EC-9371-C9A628891D81 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hello Mark, thanks a lot for your comments! My answers/comments are in-line. > On 17/lug/2015, at 20:26, Duckworth, Mark = wrote: >=20 > Hi, > I see no major issues, I just have these minor comments and questions. > =20 > section 1 uses terms MP and MC which aren=E2=80=99t defined, maybe = should spell it out here, and define abbreviations in section 2. Done. > section 2 - what=E2=80=99s the difference between CLUE Participant = and CLUE-capable device? The sound the same to me. Can we just make = CLUE Participant a synonym for CLUE-capable device? Or describe better = what the difference is? Also should define abbreviation CP. My personal view is that the CLUE Participant is not necessarily a = =E2=80=9Cdevice=E2=80=9D, i.e., a hardware entity. It rather represents = a generic CLUE-enabled entity, be it a device or a software program. If this is a useless distinction, we can make them become synonyms. > section 4 - clueId - =E2=80=9Cthe identifier of the CP=E2=80=9D - = this isn=E2=80=99t clear to me. How/where should this identifier be = assigned? Can it be just any string? Is this meant to be just a name = for the CP, administratively assigned? It is a generic string, as per the protocol schema document. In my view, = it is just a name for the CP. > =E2=80=9CEach CP should manage up to three streams of sequence = numbers=E2=80=9D - Do we need to define more rules for sequence numbers? = such as: > - do they always start at 0 or 1? I don=E2=80=99t think so. Based on Bob=E2=80=99s comments, we decided to = make the sequence number a positive integer (not an unsigned integer = anymore). The initial value is freely configurable by the CP (and I = would not suggest it to be set to 1 upon session negotiation startup). > - do they always increment by 1 for each successive message? Yes. > - if sender is re-sending a message due to timeout or error, = does it use same sequence number or a new one? A new one. > - any special rules for handling rollover of the 32 bit = value? No special rules. Having done some work on this with RTP, I am afraid = we=E2=80=99re going to open a can of worms if we want to tackle this = issue. If others have different feelings, I=E2=80=99ll be glad to catch = any good advice! > - there is mention of 401 Invalid Sequencing error code for = =E2=80=9Cout of date=E2=80=9D sequence number. How does the receiver = detect this, taking rollover into account? See above. This does not take rollover into account. =46rom the = implementation standpoint, I would equip my code with a spaghetti-code = if statement like the following: if(current_seq_num =3D=3D 65535) expected_seq_num =3D 1; Upon session startup, =E2=80=9Cexpected_seq_num" is intialized to the = initial sequence number received from the peer, incremented by one. And = it gets always updated coherently with this rule, i.e: - new_seq_number =3D expected_seq_number =E2=80=94> {current_seq_num =3D = new_seq_number; expected_seq_number =3D new_seq_number +1;} - new_seq_number > expected_seq_number (sequence number gap!) =E2=80=94> = OK the same! =E2=80=94> {current_seq_num =3D new_seq_number; = expected_seq_number =3D new_seq_number +1;} - new_seq_number < expected_seq_number =E2=80=94> KO! This approach does not correctly address the case when the sequence = number gap happens in proximity to the rollover; though, it should do = the job in most of the cases. > - Is there any problem if the receiver detects a gap in = sequence numbers? Seems to me this doesn=E2=80=99t have to be treated = as an error. In principle, there is no problem, except for the latest case mentioned = above. > page 11 typo =E2=80=9Cwhithin=E2=80=9D -> =E2=80=9Cwithin=E2=80=9D Fixed. > section 4.3 para 2 - should also mention simultaneous sets in the = list of elements. Fixed. > section 4.5 - ack within configureMessage - if it is included in the = message, does that imply a 200 Success response code always? I think the = document should say that. Fixed. > =20 > =E2=80=9CThe element SHOULD not be present at all if an ACK = message has been already sent back to the MP=E2=80=9D - Can we make this = MUST instead of SHOULD? Already fixed (see my response to Bob=E2=80=99s review=E2=80=A6) > section 4.7 response code table > Is =E2=80=9Creason string=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cresponse string=E2=80=9D= supposed to be the same thing? If so, can we use =E2=80=9Creason = string=E2=80=9D consistently, to match the reasonString element within = Ack message? Sure. Fixed.. > Section 5 - =E2=80=9COver such a channel there are typically two CLUE = streams...=E2=80=9D. I suggest change to =E2=80=9COver such a channel = there are typically two CLUE protocol streams...=E2=80=9D to avoid = confusion between media streams. Section 2 says =E2=80=9Cstream=E2=80=9D = is a capture encoding, but that is not what we are talking about here. This section has already been modified based on Bob=E2=80=99s review. > Section 6 state machine - are the timeout values and retry count = thresholds defined anywhere, or is an implementer free to choose = anything? It is an implementer=E2=80=99s choice. Anyhow, I already commented on = the retry mechanism when answering Bob=E2=80=99s comments on the ML. = Feel free to express your own feeling there. > section 7 - =E2=80=9CSuch a schema is the one included in the yet to = come RFC=E2=80=9D - it is included in this document section 9 Yep. Fixed. > section 10 Examples - should this section be non-normative? Think so. Thanks 1k for your comments! Simon > =20 > Mark > =20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue = _\\|//_ ( O-O ) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Simon Pietro Romano Universita' di Napoli Federico = II Computer Engineering Department=20 Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7683816 e-mail: spromano@unina.it <>. = Magritte. oooO ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ \ ( = ( ) \_) ) = / = (_/ --Apple-Mail=_91F0F534-AF7F-49EC-9371-C9A628891D81 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hello Mark,

thanks a lot for your comments! My answers/comments are = in-line.

On = 17/lug/2015, at 20:26, Duckworth, Mark <Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com> wrote:

Hi,
I see no = major issues, I just have these minor comments and questions.
 
section 1 = uses terms MP and MC which aren=E2=80=99t defined, maybe should spell it = out here, and define abbreviations in section = 2.

Done.

 section 2 - what=E2=80=99s the difference between CLUE = Participant and CLUE-capable device?  The sound the same to = me.  Can we just make CLUE Participant a synonym for CLUE-capable = device?  Or describe better what the difference is? Also should = define abbreviation CP.

My personal view is that the CLUE Participant is not = necessarily a =E2=80=9Cdevice=E2=80=9D, i.e., a hardware entity. It = rather represents a generic CLUE-enabled entity, be it a device or a = software program.
If this is a useless distinction, we can = make them become synonyms.

 section 4 - clueId - =E2=80=9Cthe = identifier of the CP=E2=80=9D - this isn=E2=80=99t clear to me. = How/where should this identifier be assigned?  Can it be just any = string?  Is this meant to be just a name for the CP, = administratively assigned?

It is a generic string, as per the protocol schema = document. In my view, it is just a name for the CP.

 =E2=80=9C= Each CP should manage up to three streams of sequence numbers=E2=80=9D - = Do we need to define more rules for sequence numbers?  such = as:
-          do they = always start at 0 or 1?

I don=E2=80=99t think so. Based on Bob=E2=80=99s = comments, we decided to make the sequence number a positive integer (not = an unsigned integer anymore). The initial value is freely configurable = by the CP (and I would not suggest it to be set to 1 upon session = negotiation startup).


-          do they = always increment by 1 for each successive = message?

Yes.

-          if sender is = re-sending a message due to timeout or error, does it use same sequence = number or a new one?

A = new one.

-          any special = rules for handling rollover of the 32 bit = value?

No special = rules. Having done some work on this with RTP, I am afraid we=E2=80=99re = going to open a can of worms if we want to tackle this issue. If others = have different feelings, I=E2=80=99ll be glad to catch any good = advice!


-          there is = mention of 401 Invalid Sequencing error code for =E2=80=9Cout of date=E2=80= =9D sequence number.  How does the receiver detect this, taking = rollover into account?

See above. This does not take rollover into account. = =46rom the implementation standpoint, I would equip my code with a = spaghetti-code if statement like the following:

if(current_seq_num =3D=3D 65535) expected_seq_num = =3D 1;

Upon session startup, = =E2=80=9Cexpected_seq_num" is intialized to the initial sequence number = received from the peer, incremented by one. And it gets always updated = coherently with this rule, i.e:

- = new_seq_number =3D expected_seq_number =E2=80=94> {current_seq_num =3D = new_seq_number; expected_seq_number =3D new_seq_number +1;}
- = new_seq_number > expected_seq_number (sequence number gap!) =E2=80=94&g= t; OK the same!  =E2=80=94> {current_seq_num =3D new_seq_number; = expected_seq_number =3D new_seq_number +1;}
- new_seq_number = < expected_seq_number =E2=80=94> KO!

This approach does not correctly address the case = when the sequence number gap happens in proximity to the rollover; = though, it should do the job in most of the cases.


-          Is there any = problem if the receiver detects a gap in sequence numbers?  Seems = to me this doesn=E2=80=99t have to be treated as an = error.

In principle, = there is no problem, except for the latest case mentioned = above.

 page 11 typo =E2=80=9Cwhithin=E2=80=9D -> = =E2=80=9Cwithin=E2=80=9D

Fixed.

 section 4.3 para 2 - should also mention simultaneous sets in = the list of elements.

Fixed.

 section 4.5 - ack within configureMessage - if it is included = in the message, does that imply a 200 Success response code always? I = think the document should say = that.

Fixed.

 
=E2=80=9CThe <ack> element SHOULD not be present at all = if an ACK message has been already sent back to the MP=E2=80=9D - Can we = make this MUST instead of SHOULD?

Already fixed (see my response to Bob=E2=80=99s = review=E2=80=A6)

 section 4.7 response code table
Is =E2=80=9Creason string=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9Cresponse string=E2=80=9D supposed to be the same thing?  = If so, can we use =E2=80=9Creason string=E2=80=9D consistently, to match = the reasonString element within Ack = message?

Sure. = Fixed..

 Section= 5 - =E2=80=9COver such a channel there are typically two CLUE = streams...=E2=80=9D.  I suggest change to =E2=80=9COver such a = channel there are typically two CLUE protocol streams...=E2=80=9D to = avoid confusion between media streams.  Section 2 says =E2=80=9Cstrea= m=E2=80=9D is a capture encoding, but that is not what we are talking = about here.

This = section has already been modified based on Bob=E2=80=99s = review.

 Section= 6 state machine - are the timeout values and retry count thresholds = defined anywhere, or is an implementer free to choose = anything?

It is = an implementer=E2=80=99s choice. Anyhow, I already commented on the = retry mechanism when answering Bob=E2=80=99s comments on the ML. Feel = free to express your own feeling there.

 section= 7 - =E2=80=9CSuch a schema is the one included in the yet to come = RFC=E2=80=9D - it is included in this document section = 9

Yep. = Fixed.

 section= 10 Examples - should this section be = non-normative?

Think so.

Thanks 1k = for your comments!

Simon
 
Mark
 
 
_______________________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue

  =                   =   =        = _\\|//_
            =                 =       ( O-O )
  =  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                =      = Simon Pietro Romano
      =          Universita' di Napoli = Federico II
          =            =  Computer Engineering Department 
  =            Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: = +39 081 7683816
          =                     =              e-mail: spromano@unina.it

    = <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento =C3=A8 l'alibi = degli 
   =  idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. = Magritte.
           =      =                   =    oooO
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( =   )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=                 =  \ (            (   )
=                 =                   \_) =          ) /
    =                     =                     =                     =        (_/






= --Apple-Mail=_91F0F534-AF7F-49EC-9371-C9A628891D81-- From nobody Mon Oct 19 09:25:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietf.org Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 490DB1A8833; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 09:25:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.6.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151019162534.27536.35668.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 09:25:34 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: [clue] I-D Action: draft-ietf-clue-protocol-05.txt X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 16:25:34 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the ControLling mUltiple streams for tElepresence Working Group of the IETF. Title : CLUE protocol Authors : Roberta Presta Simon Pietro Romano Filename : draft-ietf-clue-protocol-05.txt Pages : 53 Date : 2015-10-19 Abstract: The CLUE protocol is an application protocol conceived for the description and negotiation of a CLUE telepresence session. The design of the CLUE protocol takes into account the requirements and the framework defined, respectively, in [I-D.ietf-clue-framework] and [RFC7262]. The companion document [I-D.ietf-clue-signaling] delves into CLUE signaling details, as well as on the SIP/SDP session establishment phase. CLUE messages flow upon the CLUE data channel, based on reliable and ordered SCTP over DTLS transport, as described in [I-D.ietf-clue-datachannel]. Message details, together with the behavior of CLUE Participants acting as Media Providers and/or Media Consumers, are herein discussed. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-clue-protocol/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-clue-protocol-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-clue-protocol-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Oct 19 11:51:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietf.org Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 709B61B2BBD; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 11:51:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.6.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151019185123.16691.97898.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 11:51:23 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: [clue] I-D Action: draft-ietf-clue-protocol-06.txt X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 18:51:23 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the ControLling mUltiple streams for tElepresence Working Group of the IETF. Title : CLUE protocol Authors : Roberta Presta Simon Pietro Romano Filename : draft-ietf-clue-protocol-06.txt Pages : 54 Date : 2015-10-19 Abstract: The CLUE protocol is an application protocol conceived for the description and negotiation of a CLUE telepresence session. The design of the CLUE protocol takes into account the requirements and the framework defined, respectively, in [I-D.ietf-clue-framework] and [RFC7262]. The companion document [I-D.ietf-clue-signaling] delves into CLUE signaling details, as well as on the SIP/SDP session establishment phase. CLUE messages flow upon the CLUE data channel, based on reliable and ordered SCTP over DTLS transport, as described in [I-D.ietf-clue-datachannel]. Message details, together with the behavior of CLUE Participants acting as Media Providers and/or Media Consumers, are herein discussed. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-clue-protocol/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-clue-protocol-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-clue-protocol-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Oct 19 13:36:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietf.org Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A03BC1AC419; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 13:35:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.6.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151019203552.1242.66565.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 13:35:52 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: [clue] I-D Action: draft-ietf-clue-data-model-schema-11.txt X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 20:35:52 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the ControLling mUltiple streams for tElepresence Working Group of the IETF. Title : An XML Schema for the CLUE data model Authors : Roberta Presta Simon Pietro Romano Filename : draft-ietf-clue-data-model-schema-11.txt Pages : 65 Date : 2015-10-19 Abstract: This document provides an XML schema file for the definition of CLUE data model types. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-clue-data-model-schema/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-clue-data-model-schema-11 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-clue-data-model-schema-11 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Oct 21 11:40:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3CCB1A8A8C for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 11:40:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fAcPit2LSQmX for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 11:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.bemta8.messagelabs.com (mail1.bemta8.messagelabs.com [216.82.243.199]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client 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PWEHUB01.polycom.com ([::1]) with mapi; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 11:39:16 -0700 From: "Duckworth, Mark" To: "'Roni Even (ron.even.tlv@gmail.com)'" Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 11:39:15 -0700 Thread-Topic: Questions for Roni - RE: [clue] New draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 Thread-Index: AdEML6H4MCvJThE+TJaXpxW7DBCLYw== Message-ID: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CACD176@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CACD176CRPMBOXPRD08p_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: [clue] Questions for Roni - RE: New draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 18:40:39 -0000 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21 Oct 2015 18:45:00 -0000 Received: from crpehubprd01.polycom.com (HELO Crpehubprd01.polycom.com) (140.242.64.158) by server-8.tower-47.messagelabs.com with AES128-SHA encrypted SMTP; 21 Oct 2015 18:45:00 -0000 Received: from CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com ([fe80::9050:ae9:abfa:9da8]) by Crpehubprd01.polycom.com ([::1]) with mapi; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 11:45:00 -0700 From: "Duckworth, Mark" To: Christer Holmberg Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 11:44:59 -0700 Thread-Topic: How is data channel secured? Thread-Index: AdEMMJa9EpzaboTXSX+ehvQyln7JiA== Message-ID: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CACD17A@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CACD17ACRPMBOXPRD08p_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: [clue] How is data channel secured? 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([169.254.9.61]) by ESESSHC008.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.42]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 20:52:30 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: "Duckworth, Mark" Thread-Topic: How is data channel secured? Thread-Index: AdEMMJa9EpzaboTXSX+ehvQyln7JiAAAN9RA Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 18:52:29 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37B8265F@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CACD17A@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> In-Reply-To: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CACD17A@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37B8265FESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprHIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje77e+phBg83CVrsP3WZ2WLdkafM DkweS5b8ZPJ48UApgCmKyyYlNSezLLVI3y6BK+PulbVMBU2tTBU3dq9gb2Cc8o+xi5GTQ0LA RGLfhvlQtpjEhXvr2boYuTiEBI4ySjz90QHlLGaUeLy+k6WLkYODTcBCovufNkiDiICRxNH1 U5hBbGYBZYmvDZuYQGxhAU2JO3uXM0PUaEkce7OZEab+8erXYHEWAVWJq/N+g9XzCvhKrF59 nhXEFhIIlJh0/j1YnFMgSOLgzwtg9YxAx30/tYYJYpe4xK0n85kgjhaQWLLnPDOELSrx8vE/ VghbSWLF9kuMICczC+RLrN1ZD7FKUOLkzCcsExhFZyGZNAuhahaSKoiwpsT6XfoQ1YoSU7of skPYGhKtc+ayI4svYGRfxShanFpcnJtuZKyXWpSZXFycn6eXl1qyiREYawe3/Nbdwbj6teMh RgEORiUe3oSdamFCrIllxZW5hxglOJiVRHif3FYPE+JNSaysSi3Kjy8qzUktPsQozcGiJM7b wvQgVEggPbEkNTs1tSC1CCbLxMEp1cAo8Yx5acx+47Uf9eLOvt+zJvrm7rtbFfydLz1K5AhI 6tR5xHB7fd0x/cXiF6wnHtdo6Ljm87FTv+lR3rYdNfV+/fPE1M49DS/rkIp+dr1nQ5a7/4mT E8sZMz6e/5td9E/3ApPOOquGTYKastvfyTKF2Sxtubhth2yXKa9XlJut12qlCa1nRO8qsRRn JBpqMRcVJwIARsFQNLECAAA= Archived-At: Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] How is data channel secured? 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type :thread-index:content-language; bh=UoLmd63GBrZcBgexzgaGLeWoWehOsW37iFOOiaD/NTU=; b=rDJSUtRrPbu2mlxNWdbpPSD/nYg9YNaD7gtd+sAElAVThICRfMFSxKumNGhrj5E99+ SIRrjmzagK7Nam9aX1BpNezFaHGwPyaQja9rRrD94XdjSalqOd26UelG5AcD86MT0sew l0GC31FRWg70uCwWnnniPmgJJeWwc6GIv5n6f3eZPc93cA5EKwvGSW34U/9tZVk/Skp1 a+/u9eXM7AdvL+E53/06oaBMdIiJ1C9Dp7t1mUcEdaYwYetJFLFS9V3d2jN0+G7l0rBR Hg/2hf2gIo1DEWPn9F6I6abRyzydysuLduzA4AnXMq4r8/J2Pt93AMsbrltkEso3AyWU NxHA== X-Received: by 10.28.18.194 with SMTP id 185mr6496650wms.44.1446126105334; Thu, 29 Oct 2015 06:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from RoniPC (bzq-109-66-169-231.red.bezeqint.net. [109.66.169.231]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 194sm3588732wmh.19.2015.10.29.06.41.43 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 29 Oct 2015 06:41:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roni Even" To: Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 15:41:41 +0200 Message-ID: <109e01d1124f$8bf3c4a0$a3db4de0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_109F_01D11260.4F7E4250" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AdEST01iYH+YUkYOQp28uTbqjHWHAA== Content-Language: he Archived-At: Subject: [clue] Updated CLUE agenda X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 13:41:49 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_109F_01D11260.4F7E4250 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_10A0_01D11260.4F7E4250" ------=_NextPart_001_10A0_01D11260.4F7E4250 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, There is a time change for CLUE session same date and room but will start 10:30 Wednesday, 4 November 2015 at 10:30-11:30 (413) Roni ------=_NextPart_001_10A0_01D11260.4F7E4250 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

There is a time = change for CLUE session same date and room but will start = 10:30

 

Wednesday, 4 November 2015 at 10:30-11:30 = (413)

 

Roni

------=_NextPart_001_10A0_01D11260.4F7E4250-- ------=_NextPart_000_109F_01D11260.4F7E4250 Content-Type: text/plain; name="c1510.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="c1510.txt" ControLling mUltiple streams for tElepresence (CLUE) Working Group =================================================================== CHAIRS: Daniel Burnett Roni Even Paul kyzivat AGENDA Wednesday, 4 November 2015 at 10:30-11:30 (413) ----------------------------------------------- 10:30 CLUE Status Update (Chairs, 10) 10:40 Status of CLUE protocol (Simon Romano, 10) draft-ietf-clue-protocol-04 10:50 CLUE Signaling (Rob Hansen, 15) draft-ietf-clue-signaling-06 11:05 Mapping RTP streams to CLUE media captures (Roni Even, 10) draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping-05 11:15 Usage of CLUE with Perc (Roni Even, 15) draft-groves-perc-clue-00 11:30 End ------=_NextPart_000_109F_01D11260.4F7E4250 Content-Type: text/html; name="c1510.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="c1510.html" ControLling mUltiple streams for tElepresence (CLUE) Working = Group Agenda

ControLling mUltiple streams for = tElepresence (CLUE) Working Group Agenda

Chairs: Daniel Burnett , Roni Even = , Paul kyzivat =

Wednesday, 4 November 2015 at 10:30-11:30 (413)

10:30 CLUE Status UpdateChairs
10:40 Status of CLUE protocolSimon = Romano
draft-ietf-= clue-protocol-04
10:50 CLUE SignalingRob Hansen
draft-ietf= -clue-signaling-06
11:05 Mapping RTP streams to CLUE media capturesRoni Even
draft-ie= tf-clue-rtp-mapping-05
11:15 Usage of CLUE with PercRoni Even
draft-groves-= perc-clue-00
11:30 End
------=_NextPart_000_109F_01D11260.4F7E4250-- From nobody Fri Oct 30 22:39:54 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D0181A00FF for ; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 22:39:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sYn1TJNczXlE for ; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 22:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x22b.google.com (mail-pa0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4E061A0103 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 22:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by padhy1 with SMTP id hy1so87314395pad.0 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 22:39:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-type:thread-index:content-language; bh=rTlwBEB/m9xUZ5XfOZlP90UvVFM0PQdsuoY/Wvjb5kE=; b=Bz2qBpOp0nRkFXLfgYLyCzM4r2DiNoYf2I8+LMHEtIua7JDb3pvH+U7ISiM13Z3hVI pOZeYofxvsNSFZ4i4j0QzaaxPVf5nw77mSErhFPJZ6kmk7KJZT+nO0k5MGtDJRhBvKvr Q3W8DHjeg7D6mx+EwvRtN5IVf5emdmnCzoImX7sehJUtpm9+XGrNbHDuSSsgN7X/81ol HYZh/IDQ0lrlDnVcmMAJSH44Q0AqUvCbzVKdgtRTqVgHWn9hCrkoygYL/B0SmtWIgYYQ xFw1ofBgc/o+YXcgjAPy8fTQaw7uo6iuuebXl0ddDjLgm153Y4z6y7Ax1MdkZRd/cSKE LP+w== X-Received: by 10.66.193.134 with SMTP id ho6mr13118001pac.52.1446269990251; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 22:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from RoniPC (t20010c400000303258bcbad54ea25d2d.v6.meeting.ietf94.jp. [2001:c40:0:3032:58bc:bad5:4ea2:5d2d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id yk5sm11487851pac.5.2015.10.30.22.39.47 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 30 Oct 2015 22:39:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roni Even" To: "'Duckworth, Mark'" References: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CACD176@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> In-Reply-To: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CACD176@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 07:39:39 +0200 Message-ID: <002401d1139e$8ae8ad00$a0ba0700$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01D113AF.4E7303A0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQIYFHRFglKPlDhFnOmzwHTeuetjGp33EQ3Q Content-Language: he Archived-At: Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Questions for Roni - RE: New draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 05:39:53 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01D113AF.4E7303A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Inline Roni =20 =20 From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in]=20 Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 8:45 AM To: Duckworth, Mark Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] New draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 =20 Thanks for these updates. There are still a few points from my = evaluation concerning Section 15 that are outstanding. =20 First, this text proposed by Roni did not make it into the draft: =20 As described in section 5, CLUE uses SIP/SDP to establish the session prior to exchanging any CLUE specific information. Thus the security mechanisms recommended for SIP [RFC3261], including user authentication and authorization, MUST be supported. =20 [Duckworth, Mark] Thanks for catching this, it was an oversight on my = part. It should be as you say, from Roni=E2=80=99s proposal. I will = correct it. =20 Furthermore, if the position of the WG is that it isn=E2=80=99t even = going to recommend the use of authentication, you at least need to = explain why, under what conditions, and the threats associated with = operating this way. =20 >From my previous review: =20 "In addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported. Media security is also discussed in [I-D.ietf-clue-signaling] and [I-D.ietf-clue-rtp-mapping]." I think it's worth pointing out in this document that DTLS/SRTP is = required to use for CLUE-controlled m-lines.=20 =20 [Duckworth, Mark] Roni, can you please clarify what the group=E2=80=99s = final decision was on this? I thought we decided in April that DTLS/SRTP = is mandatory to support, but not mandatory to use. See this email topic = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/clue/AC6H1QwQqTzSfdgOI8ZNT87OZOA . = I counted six responses, with all six in favor of mandatory to support = but not mandatory to use. I propose this alteration to the sentence = about DTLS/SRTP in the framework document: =20 In addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security = mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and = SHOULD be used. If media is protected by other means, then DTLS/SRTP = does not need to be used. =20 =20 [Roni] Mandatory to support was the consensus. The text you suggest = above clarifies. =20 Also, I just did a quick skim of draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping and didn't = see anything in there about media security. =20 [Duckworth, Mark] Roni, should I remove this reference to the RTP = mapping document? Or do you expect that document really will discuss = media security? =20 Roni: the new revision of RTP mapping = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping-05#section-10 = discuss the securitry =20 "Thus, it MUST be possible for the endpoints to establish a channel which is secure against both message recovery and message modification. Further details on this are provided in the CLUE data channel solution document." There are no details about how the data channel is secured in = draft-ietf-clue-datachannel (which should be cited here if it's going to = be referenced). Nor are the details in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, = but rather they are in draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where they are described for rtcweb which = uses a different authentication model from clue. So how to do this = actually needs to be explained either here or in the clue data channel = document for clue specifically.=20 [Duckworth, Mark] I think the data channel document is the right place = to describe how the data channel is secured. I will add a proper = reference to it in the framework. Thanks, Alissa =20 =20 On Sep 24, 2015, at 3:04 PM, Duckworth, Mark = wrote: =20 Changes from 22 to 23: 1. Updates to Security Considerations section. 2. Update version number of references to other CLUE = documents in progress. 3. Change some "MAY" to "may". 4. Fix a few grammatical errors. =20 Mark _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01D113AF.4E7303A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

Inline

Roni

 

 

From:= = Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in]
Sent: Saturday, = October 03, 2015 8:45 AM
To: Duckworth, Mark
Cc: = clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] New = draft-ietf-clue-framework-23

 

Thanks = for these updates. There are still a few points from my evaluation = concerning Section 15 that are outstanding.

 

First, this text proposed by Roni did not make it into = the draft:

 

As described in section 5, CLUE uses SIP/SDP to establish = the
   session prior to exchanging any CLUE specific = information. Thus
   the security mechanisms recommended = for SIP [RFC3261], including
   user authentication and = authorization, MUST be supported.

 

[Duckworth, Mark] Thanks for catching this, it was an oversight on my = part.  It should be as you say, from Roni=E2=80=99s proposal. I = will correct it.

 

Furthermore, if the position of the WG is that it = isn=E2=80=99t even going to recommend the use of authentication, you at = least need to explain why, under what conditions, and the threats = associated with operating this way.

 

From my previous review:

 

"In
  addition, the media is based = on RTP and thus existing RTP security
  mechanisms SHOULD = be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported.
  Media = security is also discussed in [I-D.ietf-clue-signaling] = and
  [I-D.ietf-clue-rtp-mapping]."

I think = it's worth pointing out in this document that DTLS/SRTP is required to = use for CLUE-controlled m-lines.

 

[Duckworth, Mark] Roni, can you please clarify what the = group=E2=80=99s final decision was on this? I thought we decided in = April that DTLS/SRTP is mandatory to support, but not mandatory to = use.  See this email topic https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/clue/AC6H1QwQqTzSfdgOI8ZNT87= OZOA . I counted six responses, with all six in favor of mandatory = to support but not mandatory to use. I propose this alteration to the = sentence about DTLS/SRTP in the framework = document:

 

In addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security = mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and = SHOULD be used. If media is protected by other means, then DTLS/SRTP = does not need to be used.

 

 

[Roni] Mandatory to support was the consensus. The text you suggest = above clarifies.

 

Also, I just = did a quick skim of draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping and didn't see anything = in there about media security.

 

[Duckworth, Mark] Roni, should I remove this reference to the RTP = mapping document?  Or do you expect that document really will = discuss media security?

 

Roni: the new revision of RTP mapping https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping-05#section-= 10 discuss the securitry

 

"Thus, it MUST be possible for the = endpoints to establish
  a channel which is secure against = both message recovery and
  message modification. Further = details on this are provided in the
  CLUE data channel = solution document."

There are no details about how the data = channel is secured in draft-ietf-clue-datachannel (which should be cited = here if it's going to be referenced). Nor are the details in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, but rather they are in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where = they are described for rtcweb which uses a different authentication = model from clue. So how to do this actually needs to be explained either = here or in the clue data channel document for clue = specifically. 

[Duckworth, Mark] I think the data channel document is the right = place to describe how the data channel is secured. I will add a proper = reference to it in the framework.

Thanks,

Alissa

 

 

On Sep 24, 2015, at 3:04 PM, Duckworth, Mark <mark.duckworth@polycom.com= > wrote:

 

Changes = from 22 to 23:

1. &nb= sp;          Updates to = Security Considerations section.

2. &nb= sp;          Update version = number of references to other CLUE documents in = progress.

3. &nb= sp;          Change some = "MAY" to "may".

4. &nb= sp;          Fix a few = grammatical errors.

 =

Mark

__________= _____________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue

 

------=_NextPart_000_0025_01D113AF.4E7303A0-- From nobody Sat Oct 31 02:13:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C901A1A1BF2 for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 02:13:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2p5y0PojrO3a for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 02:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 444AA1A1BF1 for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 02:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1524202BF for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 05:13:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1 ([10.202.2.160]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 31 Oct 2015 05:13:00 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h=cc :content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=mesmtp; bh=PpNOC ZnvFRrEf1rDiydZx99VFI0=; b=y31Gez05YPrlU96jekvTNRne5L6Ifb1meFYCV SqVoYVidVZjTv9Kc8ckchWYL7fuERdNQYcT/VgPnTQNAG1SIxBjCoIT4sDxDsndm dZBlNLMF6r4yN+yxoZgGfppTeZ8veB1m4Vbp1+HPYJ0Ca1H3P4+tEuXlImJLjTeX Ysr9dM= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc :x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=PpNOCZnvFRrEf1rDiydZx99VFI0=; b=bVYMS 1Ur9h0fWOcdeT9Vif1UUh8hc3F4BRnZbhuG1x30clX95nf6rEBArGG+052i8ox8B idTlsys4t/iSv1UBAyzDLsbMPUQmoZwll1rr46jahhW1jVrne0q0v+ZRRZp+aIg3 JPmqBWJzql14EOvTGRG7kutJP+jJGZTLgIL4b0= X-Sasl-enc: 6XdgraB1LM5ZSGcvfLhzwIupyh8DdvufDF8iztKoVGUT 1446282779 Received: from [10.24.150.16] (unknown [128.107.241.172]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id DF3AFC016D5; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 05:12:58 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7B262FF2-0DE0-4AC3-A276-8C3C31ED9BF9" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CACD17A@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 18:12:56 +0900 Message-Id: <1A3FD412-D384-4A6D-B892-00D64D7CBFDC@cooperw.in> References: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CACD17A@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> To: "Duckworth, Mark" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] How is data channel secured? X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 09:13:05 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7B262FF2-0DE0-4AC3-A276-8C3C31ED9BF9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Let me try to expand on this a bit so it=E2=80=99s more clear what the = issue is. The paragraph in question is: "While other information in the CLUE protocol messages does not reveal specific identities, it can reveal characteristics and capabilities of the endpoints. That information could possibly uniquely identify specific endpoints. It might also be possible for an attacker to manipulate the information and disrupt the CLUE sessions. It would also be possible to mount a DoS attack on the CLUE endpoints if a malicious agent has access to the data channel. Thus, it MUST be possible for the endpoints to establish a channel which is secure against both message recovery and message modification. Further details on this are provided in the CLUE data channel solution document." Thus there is a normative requirement here for endpoints to support a = mechanism that secures the data channel against message recovery and = modification. As noted, this is described for rtcweb in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch, but clue is different in that it is = relying on SIP/SDP to establish the session in the first place. So if = the solution here is SIP authentication mechanisms to setup the session = + DTLS for the data channel, then just say that. But you can=E2=80=99t = say the details are provided in another document when that document = provides no details, and you can=E2=80=99t fully rely on = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch which assumes a different framework for = authenticating the other parties in the call. Alissa > On Oct 22, 2015, at 3:44 AM, Duckworth, Mark = wrote: >=20 > Hello Christer, > =20 > Alissa raised an issue about the data channel document, I copied it = here: > =20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > There are no details about how the data channel is secured in = draft-ietf-clue-datachannel (which should be cited here if it's going to = be referenced). Nor are the details in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, = but rather they are in draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where they are described for rtcweb which = uses a different authentication model from clue. So how to do this = actually needs to be explained either here or in the clue data channel = document for clue specifically.=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > Do you agree with her assessment? Do we need to add something to the = data channel document about how the data channel is secured? I think it = belongs there, not in the framework. > =20 > Mark > =20 > =20 > From: clue [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org = ] On Behalf Of Duckworth, Mark > Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 4:05 PM > To: Alissa Cooper > Cc: clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] New draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 > =20 > Hi Alissa, > Thanks for the feedback. Comments below, and questions for Roni. > Mark > =20 > From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in = ]=20 > Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 8:45 AM > To: Duckworth, Mark > Cc: clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] New draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 > =20 > Thanks for these updates. There are still a few points from my = evaluation concerning Section 15 that are outstanding. > =20 > First, this text proposed by Roni did not make it into the draft: > =20 > As described in section 5, CLUE uses SIP/SDP to establish the > session prior to exchanging any CLUE specific information. Thus > the security mechanisms recommended for SIP [RFC3261], including > user authentication and authorization, MUST be supported. > =20 > [Duckworth, Mark] Thanks for catching this, it was an oversight on my = part. It should be as you say, from Roni=E2=80=99s proposal. I will = correct it. > =20 > Furthermore, if the position of the WG is that it isn=E2=80=99t even = going to recommend the use of authentication, you at least need to = explain why, under what conditions, and the threats associated with = operating this way. > =20 > =46rom my previous review: > =20 > "In > addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security > mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported. > Media security is also discussed in [I-D.ietf-clue-signaling] and > [I-D.ietf-clue-rtp-mapping]." >=20 > I think it's worth pointing out in this document that DTLS/SRTP is = required to use for CLUE-controlled m-lines.=20 > =20 > [Duckworth, Mark] Roni, can you please clarify what the group=E2=80=99s = final decision was on this? I thought we decided in April that DTLS/SRTP = is mandatory to support, but not mandatory to use. See this email topic = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/clue/AC6H1QwQqTzSfdgOI8ZNT87OZOA = = . I counted six responses, with all six in favor of mandatory to support = but not mandatory to use. I propose this alteration to the sentence = about DTLS/SRTP in the framework document: > =20 > In addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security = mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and = SHOULD be used. If media is protected by other means, then DTLS/SRTP = does not need to be used. > =20 > Also, I just did a quick skim of draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping and = didn't see anything in there about media security. > =20 > [Duckworth, Mark] Roni, should I remove this reference to the RTP = mapping document? Or do you expect that document really will discuss = media security? > =20 > "Thus, it MUST be possible for the endpoints to establish > a channel which is secure against both message recovery and > message modification. Further details on this are provided in the > CLUE data channel solution document." >=20 > There are no details about how the data channel is secured in = draft-ietf-clue-datachannel (which should be cited here if it's going to = be referenced). Nor are the details in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, = but rather they are in draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where they are described for rtcweb which = uses a different authentication model from clue. So how to do this = actually needs to be explained either here or in the clue data channel = document for clue specifically.=20 >=20 > [Duckworth, Mark] I think the data channel document is the right place = to describe how the data channel is secured. I will add a proper = reference to it in the framework. >=20 > Thanks, > Alissa > =20 > =20 > On Sep 24, 2015, at 3:04 PM, Duckworth, Mark = > wrote: > =20 > Changes from 22 to 23: > 1. Updates to Security Considerations section. > 2. Update version number of references to other CLUE = documents in progress. > 3. Change some "MAY" to "may". > 4. Fix a few grammatical errors. > =20 > Mark > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue = > =20 > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue = --Apple-Mail=_7B262FF2-0DE0-4AC3-A276-8C3C31ED9BF9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Let me try to expand on this a bit so it=E2=80=99= s more clear what the issue is.

The paragraph in question is:

"While other information in the CLUE = protocol messages does not
   reveal specific identities, it =
can reveal characteristics and
   capabilities of the endpoints.  That information could possibly
   uniquely identify specific endpoints.  It might also be possible
   for an attacker to manipulate the information and disrupt the CLUE
   sessions.  It would also be possible to mount a DoS attack on the
   CLUE endpoints if a malicious agent has access to the data
   channel.  Thus, it MUST be possible for the endpoints to establish
   a channel which is secure against both message recovery and
   message modification. Further details on this are provided in the
   CLUE data channel solution document."

Thus there is a normative requirement = here for endpoints to support a mechanism that secures the data channel = against message recovery and modification. As noted, this is described = for rtcweb in draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch, but clue is different in = that it is relying on SIP/SDP to establish the session in the first = place. So if the solution here is SIP authentication mechanisms to setup = the session + DTLS for the data channel, then just say that. But you = can=E2=80=99t say the details are provided in another document when that = document provides no details, and you can=E2=80=99t fully rely on = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch which assumes a different framework for = authenticating the other parties in the call.

Alissa

On = Oct 22, 2015, at 3:44 AM, Duckworth, Mark <mark.duckworth@polycom.com> wrote:

Hello Christer,
 
Alissa raised an issue = about the data channel document, I copied it here:
 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

There are no details about how the data channel is secured in = draft-ietf-clue-datachannel (which should be cited here if it's going to = be referenced). Nor are the details in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, = but rather they are in draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where they are described for rtcweb which = uses a different authentication model from clue. So how to do this = actually needs to be explained either here or in the clue data channel = document for clue specifically. 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Do you agree with her assessment?  Do = we need to add something to the data channel document about how the data = channel is secured?  I think it belongs there, not in the = framework.
 
Mark
 
 
From: clue [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Duckworth, = Mark
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 = 4:05 PM
To: Alissa Cooper
Cc: clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] New = draft-ietf-clue-framework-23
 
Hi Alissa,
Thanks for the feedback.  Comments = below, and questions for Roni.
Mark
 
From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in] 
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 = 8:45 AM
To: Duckworth, Mark
Cc: clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] New = draft-ietf-clue-framework-23
 
Thanks for these updates. There are still = a few points from my evaluation concerning Section 15 that are = outstanding.
 
First, this text proposed by Roni did not make it = into the draft:
 
As described in section 5, CLUE uses SIP/SDP = to establish the
   session prior to exchanging = any CLUE specific information. Thus
   the = security mechanisms recommended for SIP [RFC3261], = including
   user authentication and = authorization, MUST be supported.
 
[Duckworth, = Mark] Thanks for catching this, it was an oversight on my part.  It = should be as you say, from Roni=E2=80=99s proposal. I will correct = it.
 
Furthermore, if the position of the WG is = that it isn=E2=80=99t even going to recommend the use of authentication, = you at least need to explain why, under what conditions, and the threats = associated with operating this way.
 
=46rom my previous review:
 
"In
  addition, = the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security
  mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP = MUST be supported.
  Media security is also = discussed in [I-D.ietf-clue-signaling] and
  [I-D.ietf-clue-rtp-mapping]."

I think it's worth pointing out in this document that = DTLS/SRTP is required to use for CLUE-controlled m-lines. 
 
[Duckworth, = Mark] Roni, can you please clarify what the group=E2=80=99s final = decision was on this? I thought we decided in April that DTLS/SRTP is = mandatory to support, but not mandatory to use.  See this email = topic https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/clue/AC6H1QwQqTzSfdgOI8ZN= T87OZOA . I = counted six responses, with all six in favor of mandatory to support but = not mandatory to use. I propose this alteration to the sentence about = DTLS/SRTP in the framework document:
 
In = addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security = mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and = SHOULD be used. If media is protected by other means, then DTLS/SRTP = does not need to be used.
 
Also, I just did a quick skim of = draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping and didn't see anything in there about media = security.
 
[Duckworth, Mark] Roni, should I remove this reference to the = RTP mapping document?  Or do you expect that document really will = discuss media security?
 

"Thus, it MUST be possible for the endpoints to = establish
  a channel which is secure against = both message recovery and
  message = modification. Further details on this are provided in the
  CLUE data channel solution document."

There are no details about how the data = channel is secured in draft-ietf-clue-datachannel (which should be cited = here if it's going to be referenced). Nor are the details in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, but rather they are in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where = they are described for rtcweb which uses a different authentication = model from clue. So how to do this actually needs to be explained either = here or in the clue data channel document for clue = specifically. 

[Duckworth, Mark] I think the data channel document is the = right place to describe how the data channel is secured. I will add a = proper reference to it in the framework.

Thanks,
Alissa
 
 
On Sep 24, 2015, at = 3:04 PM, Duckworth, Mark <mark.duckworth@polycom.com> wrote:
 
Changes from 22 to 23:
1.          &= nbsp; Updates to Security Considerations section.
2.          &= nbsp; Update version number of references to other CLUE documents in = progress.
3.          &= nbsp; Change some "MAY" to "may".
4.          &= nbsp; Fix a few grammatical errors.
 
Mark
_______________________________________________
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clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
 
_______________________________________________
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clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue

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