From nobody Sun Nov 1 17:36:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 790DF1B4032 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 17:36:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M2blAqQ2Yi5e for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 17:36:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from alum-mailsec-scanner-1.mit.edu (alum-mailsec-scanner-1.mit.edu [18.7.68.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49F8C1B402A for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 17:36:32 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 1207440c-f79e16d000002a6e-85-5636be1fbb77 Received: from outgoing-alum.mit.edu (OUTGOING-ALUM.MIT.EDU [18.7.68.33]) by alum-mailsec-scanner-1.mit.edu (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 72.2A.10862.F1EB6365; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 20:36:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([216.239.175.66]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as pkyzivat@ALUM.MIT.EDU) by outgoing-alum.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.12.4) with ESMTP id tA21aUhU022912 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 1 Nov 2015 20:36:31 -0500 To: Roni Even From: Paul Kyzivat Message-ID: <5636BE21.7090509@alum.mit.edu> Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 20:36:33 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmplleLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42IRYndR1JXfZxZmcOC4lsX+U5eZLVZsOMBq 8bed2YHZ4+/7D0weO2fdZfdYsuQnUwBzFLdNUmJJWXBmep6+XQJ3xs51pgUvWSuev1/G0sB4 lKWLkZNDQsBEYnnzDnYIW0ziwr31bF2MXBxCApcZJT51f2SCcA4ySczYdZAJpEpEQE3i9drP bCA2m4CWxJxD/8EmCQtISWzZ9QYsziwgIXH74jywel4BbYmmo7dZQWwWARWJw+cfgcVFBdIk Dl/7wApRIyhxcuYTFoheM4l5mx8yQ9jyEtvfzmGewMg3C0nZLCRls5CULWBkXsUol5hTmqub m5iZU5yarFucnJiXl1qka6iXm1mil5pSuokREow8Oxi/rZM5xCjAwajEw5vhbhYmxJpYVlyZ e4hRkoNJSZT3cxNQiC8pP6UyI7E4I76oNCe1+BCjBAezkghv+SagHG9KYmVValE+TEqag0VJ nFd1ibqfkEB6YklqdmpqQWoRTFaGg0NJgpdzL1CjYFFqempFWmZOCUKaiYMTZDiXlEhxal5K alFiaUlGPCjy4ouBsQeS4gHauwOknbe4IDEXKArReopRl2PBj9trmYRY8vLzUqXEeZ1BigRA ijJK8+BWwFLPK0ZxoI+Fee/tAariAaYtuEmvgJYwAS0J32YKsqQkESEl1cCYlXjWw2AJk31s 8M4T/CVz7Bpeb1mesF5s1lGGnzqTN582/FjmyTttRvRZ+YtZU9U3Fi3+W1D14pLq/lnFJ04/ 88vcsiTaask5QZfeJWc76hW03t+9NXm/53K9rW1XP7Tcucj5/orimnvNH5WnpESu+7KGMWfB lEt70+I1RBNaJk/KqNJg1unsUWIpzkg01GIuKk4EADa2Z8cYAwAA Archived-At: Cc: CLUE Subject: [clue] CLUE and rtcp-mux X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 01:36:34 -0000 Roni, (This is regarding the rtp-mux issue just discussed in mmusic.) I think we may have a problem with this in clue already. It is likely that initially in clue (if using bundle) there will be a bundle group with only an sctp m-line for the data channel. So there will be no rtcp port. Then, after some clue channel messages, there will be another O/A to add media streams. You won't want to change which m-line is selected for the bundle address in this case, and you will probably want to make all of the new m-lines bundle-only. I don't see how we could expect that to work without rtcp-mux. It is a logical necessity, but we probably ought to say something about it. (In the signaling draft.) Thanks, Paul From nobody Mon Nov 2 06:36:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B70CA1B3758 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 06:36:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4aUAD5B7fDyx for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 06:36:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22d.google.com (mail-pa0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87FD01B2C94 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 06:36:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by padec8 with SMTP id ec8so41534839pad.1 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2015 06:36:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=62bwHczOlafIsFbf9gdgpYcc42WXKjTaM4fkCnJtJIc=; b=bwQSYUCaZmaViLM1X73oePq5Bl9/LufMZv1UavVyIgOa0toc933O1bLREkGggpUVM8 1M+WdbjS8r06D6crrvh2yna1vzHlUlNsu6rKiN3VlH9DLp8ro5EQ6wJ9jh56/R9QguVJ sHjnnqXLwn84b34xA+AitnxP7rmRcKjytMxpysF9yKjE8UorH5al3MZEkuua5TGgiB6W rhZf9PdqYdhQcCxSjJ6G0yV2KSzRpm0nIb5XfVvwnMPJwa2fn2MU+w9YIAbt2f64XL9Q IZLzfJAN9eoXgZIZVupcyqNjyX3yVcAyb6KcKe9jUTxFhDKM8n3+yWl+cb6sTgzZ9maH Wlgw== X-Received: by 10.66.254.197 with SMTP id ak5mr27394461pad.130.1446474983271; Mon, 02 Nov 2015 06:36:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from RoniPC (122x210x83x163.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp. [122.210.83.163]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id wq1sm24412692pbc.49.2015.11.02.06.36.21 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 02 Nov 2015 06:36:22 -0800 (PST) From: "Roni Even" To: "'Paul Kyzivat'" References: <5636BE21.7090509@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <5636BE21.7090509@alum.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 16:36:14 +0200 Message-ID: <03cb01d1157b$d4f65850$7ee308f0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQHcQRO37rVDgr7MxEPV2+oFlDVdI55ycigA Content-Language: he Archived-At: Cc: 'CLUE' Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE and rtcp-mux X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 14:36:24 -0000 Hi Paul, I read section 7 of the signaling draft and I am not that clear what it = says. To me it looks that when you use bundle you may offer the clue = controlled m-lines in the initial offer as bundled since there will be = no issue of opening multiple ports if bundle is negotiated, Roni=20 -----Original Message----- From: Paul Kyzivat [mailto:pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu]=20 Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 3:37 AM To: Roni Even Cc: CLUE Subject: CLUE and rtcp-mux Roni, (This is regarding the rtp-mux issue just discussed in mmusic.) I think we may have a problem with this in clue already. It is likely that initially in clue (if using bundle) there will be a = bundle group with only an sctp m-line for the data channel. So there = will be no rtcp port. Then, after some clue channel messages, there will be another O/A to add = media streams. You won't want to change which m-line is selected for the = bundle address in this case, and you will probably want to make all of = the new m-lines bundle-only. I don't see how we could expect that to = work without rtcp-mux. It is a logical necessity, but we probably ought = to say something about it. (In the signaling draft.) Thanks, Paul From nobody Mon Nov 2 06:50:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE76C1B3791 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 06:50:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5_wh_s5_na8O for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 06:50:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B26401B3790 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 06:50:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-ch2-06v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.102]) by resqmta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id cenp1r0032D5gil01eq024; Mon, 02 Nov 2015 14:50:01 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([204.9.191.107]) by resomta-ch2-06v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id cenr1r00C2KUttG01ent5K; Mon, 02 Nov 2015 14:47:59 +0000 To: Roni Even References: <5636BE21.7090509@alum.mit.edu> <03cb01d1157b$d4f65850$7ee308f0$@gmail.com> From: Paul Kyzivat Message-ID: <56377797.80105@alum.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 09:47:51 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <03cb01d1157b$d4f65850$7ee308f0$@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1446475801; bh=qRerhspDW+NtVu/29dlKDuBnqjgSwenCufEKmUZcfXg=; h=Received:Received:Subject:To:From:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=gw7E46Nq7O2YUPwShbFAKhjOEo9sQj/4HDCsWh/YLcEW1IUQmhdDB0KpwZKYpjWTG YCwJHF+mnOUnPLglkOiuYALKp2BnDJeS060W5aE7nTH8PaQNcfIbqiMI6nDTKIiYIn KsSgjIqqvT9uv1zpF3tygT0AVGaBd5TNq98Da5nSpEAVbM4hIxM8Vnl1HbQt06wn9P 6voUvpDbxo9J+OhduVMTsWs39RmO0+fbejWyOKN0Welwew4Rq/72dxed2MLhawrI0C FDDQl6k9bTDDIxpOTw6uq+Eh5z5KEemRfScxLOIxXpeGs7w2EitEcyV0k/yOBNSNa8 cumOTFY0pxY4A== Archived-At: Cc: 'CLUE' Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE and rtcp-mux X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 14:50:08 -0000 On 11/2/15 9:36 AM, Roni Even wrote: > Hi Paul, > I read section 7 of the signaling draft and I am not that clear what it says. > To me it looks that when you use bundle you may offer the clue controlled m-lines in the initial offer as bundled since there will be no issue of opening multiple ports if bundle is negotiated, I'm in the midst of a meeting right now, so I can't go read the spec. The following is from memory. I think the first offer will normally have the initial, non-clue, media plus the data channel. The data channel might be the only thing in a bundle, or not. Then, when switching into clue mode, if using bundle, I think one would put the new clue m-lines into the bundle, along with the data channel. In that case, I think the new m-lines would be bundle-only, and the bundle address/port will be determined by the clue channel. But then we have the problem of what is used for rtcp. I think the only answer in that case is that rtcp-mux *must* be used. Thanks, Paul > Roni > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Kyzivat [mailto:pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu] > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 3:37 AM > To: Roni Even > Cc: CLUE > Subject: CLUE and rtcp-mux > > Roni, > > (This is regarding the rtp-mux issue just discussed in mmusic.) > > I think we may have a problem with this in clue already. > > It is likely that initially in clue (if using bundle) there will be a bundle group with only an sctp m-line for the data channel. So there will be no rtcp port. > > Then, after some clue channel messages, there will be another O/A to add media streams. You won't want to change which m-line is selected for the bundle address in this case, and you will probably want to make all of the new m-lines bundle-only. I don't see how we could expect that to work without rtcp-mux. It is a logical necessity, but we probably ought to say something about it. (In the signaling draft.) > > Thanks, > Paul > > From nobody Mon Nov 2 10:55:06 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C8951ACD93 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:55:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Feh-tlTKdqpS for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:54:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.bemta8.messagelabs.com (mail1.bemta8.messagelabs.com [216.82.243.206]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DA6B1ACD7C for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:54:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [216.82.242.36] by server-14.bemta-8.messagelabs.com id 34/6D-02782-281B7365; Mon, 02 Nov 2015 18:54:58 +0000 X-Env-Sender: Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com X-Msg-Ref: server-4.tower-94.messagelabs.com!1446490496!3224165!1 X-Originating-IP: [140.242.64.154] X-StarScan-Received: X-StarScan-Version: 7.19.2; banners=-,-,- X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 94297 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2015 18:54:57 -0000 Received: from crpehubprd02.polycom.com (HELO crpehubprd02.polycom.com) (140.242.64.154) by server-4.tower-94.messagelabs.com with AES128-SHA encrypted SMTP; 2 Nov 2015 18:54:57 -0000 Received: from PWEHUB01.polycom.com (10.236.2.221) by crpehubprd02.polycom.com (10.236.0.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.389.2; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:54:56 -0800 Received: from CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com ([fe80::9050:ae9:abfa:9da8]) by PWEHUB01.polycom.com ([::1]) with mapi; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:54:55 -0800 From: "Duckworth, Mark" To: Christer Holmberg , "'clue@ietf.org'" Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:54:52 -0800 Thread-Topic: [clue] How is data channel secured? Thread-Index: AdEMMJa9EpzaboTXSX+ehvQyln7JiAHg1vQAAANPKHAAd5gT0A== Message-ID: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CBD922A@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> References: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CACD17A@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> <1A3FD412-D384-4A6D-B892-00D64D7CBFDC@cooperw.in> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BB1D18@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BB1D18@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CBD922ACRPMBOXPRD08p_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] How is data channel secured? X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 18:55:03 -0000 --_000_5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CBD922ACRPMBOXPRD08p_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 V2UgY291bGQganVzdCBhZGQgd2hhdCBBbGlzc2EgIHN1Z2dlc3RlZCB0byB0aGUgZnJhbWV3b3Jr OiDigJxUaGlzIGNhbiBiZSBhY2NvbXBsaXNoZWQgdXNpbmcgU0lQIGF1dGhlbnRpY2F0aW9uIFty ZWYgU0lQIGRvY10gcGx1cyBEVExTIGZvciB0aGUgZGF0YSBjaGFubmVsIFtyZWYgZGF0YSBjaGFu bmVsIGRvY13igJ0uICBBbmQgcmVtb3ZlIHRoZSBwYXJ0IHRoYXQgc2F5cyBkZXRhaWxzIGFyZSBp biB0aGUgZGF0YSBjaGFubmVsIGRvYy4NCg0KRG9lcyB0aGlzIHNvbHZlIHRoZSBwcm9ibGVtPw0K DQpNYXJrDQoNCkZyb206IENocmlzdGVyIEhvbG1iZXJnIFttYWlsdG86Y2hyaXN0ZXIuaG9sbWJl cmdAZXJpY3Nzb24uY29tXQ0KU2VudDogU2F0dXJkYXksIE9jdG9iZXIgMzEsIDIwMTUgNTo1NCBB 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From nobody Mon Nov 2 10:55:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 578791ACD94 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:55:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VuATRa2XIJkW for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:55:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.bemta7.messagelabs.com (mail1.bemta7.messagelabs.com [216.82.254.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C16E31ACD7C for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:55:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [216.82.254.19] by server-16.bemta-7.messagelabs.com id 4D/BD-01424-2B1B7365; Mon, 02 Nov 2015 18:55:46 +0000 X-Env-Sender: Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com X-Msg-Ref: server-3.tower-96.messagelabs.com!1446490544!4102519!1 X-Originating-IP: [140.242.64.154] X-StarScan-Received: X-StarScan-Version: 7.19.2; banners=-,-,- X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 30705 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2015 18:55:45 -0000 Received: from crpehubprd02.polycom.com (HELO crpehubprd02.polycom.com) (140.242.64.154) by server-3.tower-96.messagelabs.com with AES128-SHA encrypted SMTP; 2 Nov 2015 18:55:45 -0000 Received: from CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com ([fe80::9050:ae9:abfa:9da8]) by crpehubprd02.polycom.com ([::1]) with mapi; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:55:38 -0800 From: "Duckworth, Mark" To: Roni Even Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:55:35 -0800 Thread-Topic: Questions for Roni - RE: [clue] New draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 Thread-Index: AQIYFHRFglKPlDhFnOmzwHTeuetjGp33EQ3QgAQGBzA= Message-ID: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CBD922B@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> References: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CACD176@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> <002401d1139e$8ae8ad00$a0ba0700$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <002401d1139e$8ae8ad00$a0ba0700$@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CBD922BCRPMBOXPRD08p_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] Questions for Roni - RE: New draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 18:55:49 -0000 --_000_5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CBD922BCRPMBOXPRD08p_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 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nobody Mon Nov 2 14:39:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 228011A8A45 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 14:39:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dP6gw29DrxIf for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 14:39:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x236.google.com (mail-pa0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 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[122.210.83.163]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ou1sm25927204pbc.7.2015.11.02.14.39.31 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 02 Nov 2015 14:39:32 -0800 (PST) From: "Roni Even" To: "'Duckworth, Mark'" References: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CACD176@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> <002401d1139e$8ae8ad00$a0ba0700$@gmail.com> <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CBD922B@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> In-Reply-To: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CBD922B@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 00:39:24 +0200 Message-ID: <040201d115bf$549f06e0$fddd14a0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0403_01D115D0.18298490" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQIYFHRFglKPlDhFnOmzwHTeuetjGgDlsJUSAuLSwzOd3RFiEA== Content-Language: he Archived-At: Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Questions for Roni - RE: New draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 22:39:37 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0403_01D115D0.18298490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mark, For other means add reference to RFC7201 Roni =20 From: Duckworth, Mark [mailto:Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com]=20 Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 8:56 PM To: Roni Even Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions for Roni - RE: [clue] New = draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 =20 Thanks Roni. I will make these minor updates to the framework document = accordingly. Mark =20 From: Roni Even [mailto:ron.even.tlv@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 1:40 AM To: Duckworth, Mark Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: RE: Questions for Roni - RE: [clue] New = draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 =20 Hi, Inline Roni =20 =20 From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in]=20 Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 8:45 AM To: Duckworth, Mark Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] New draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 =20 Thanks for these updates. There are still a few points from my = evaluation concerning Section 15 that are outstanding. =20 First, this text proposed by Roni did not make it into the draft: =20 As described in section 5, CLUE uses SIP/SDP to establish the session prior to exchanging any CLUE specific information. Thus the security mechanisms recommended for SIP [RFC3261], including user authentication and authorization, MUST be supported. =20 [Duckworth, Mark] Thanks for catching this, it was an oversight on my = part. It should be as you say, from Roni=E2=80=99s proposal. I will = correct it. =20 Furthermore, if the position of the WG is that it isn=E2=80=99t even = going to recommend the use of authentication, you at least need to = explain why, under what conditions, and the threats associated with = operating this way. =20 >From my previous review: =20 "In addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported. Media security is also discussed in [I-D.ietf-clue-signaling] and [I-D.ietf-clue-rtp-mapping]." I think it's worth pointing out in this document that DTLS/SRTP is = required to use for CLUE-controlled m-lines.=20 =20 [Duckworth, Mark] Roni, can you please clarify what the group=E2=80=99s = final decision was on this? I thought we decided in April that DTLS/SRTP = is mandatory to support, but not mandatory to use. See this email topic = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/clue/AC6H1QwQqTzSfdgOI8ZNT87OZOA . = I counted six responses, with all six in favor of mandatory to support = but not mandatory to use. I propose this alteration to the sentence = about DTLS/SRTP in the framework document: =20 In addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security = mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and = SHOULD be used. If media is protected by other means, then DTLS/SRTP = does not need to be used. =20 =20 [Roni] Mandatory to support was the consensus. The text you suggest = above clarifies. =20 Also, I just did a quick skim of draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping and didn't = see anything in there about media security. =20 [Duckworth, Mark] Roni, should I remove this reference to the RTP = mapping document? Or do you expect that document really will discuss = media security? =20 Roni: the new revision of RTP mapping = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping-05#section-10 = discuss the securitry =20 "Thus, it MUST be possible for the endpoints to establish a channel which is secure against both message recovery and message modification. Further details on this are provided in the CLUE data channel solution document." There are no details about how the data channel is secured in = draft-ietf-clue-datachannel (which should be cited here if it's going to = be referenced). Nor are the details in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, = but rather they are in draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where they are described for rtcweb which = uses a different authentication model from clue. So how to do this = actually needs to be explained either here or in the clue data channel = document for clue specifically.=20 [Duckworth, Mark] I think the data channel document is the right place = to describe how the data channel is secured. I will add a proper = reference to it in the framework. Thanks, Alissa =20 =20 On Sep 24, 2015, at 3:04 PM, Duckworth, Mark = wrote: =20 Changes from 22 to 23: 1. Updates to Security Considerations section. 2. Update version number of references to other CLUE = documents in progress. 3. Change some "MAY" to "may". 4. Fix a few grammatical errors. =20 Mark _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0403_01D115D0.18298490 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Mark,

For other means add reference to RFC7201

Roni

 

From:= = Duckworth, Mark [mailto:Mark.Duckworth@polycom.com]
Sent: = Monday, November 02, 2015 8:56 PM
To: Roni Even
Cc: = clue@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions for Roni - RE: [clue] New = draft-ietf-clue-framework-23

 

Thanks Roni.  I will make these minor updates to the framework = document accordingly.

Mark

 

From:= = Roni Even [mailto:ron.even.tlv@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, = October 31, 2015 1:40 AM
To: Duckworth, Mark
Cc: = clue@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Questions for Roni - RE: [clue] New = draft-ietf-clue-framework-23

 

Hi,

Inline

Roni

 

 

From:= = Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in]
Sent: Saturday, = October 03, 2015 8:45 AM
To: Duckworth, Mark
Cc: = clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] New = draft-ietf-clue-framework-23

 

Thanks = for these updates. There are still a few points from my evaluation = concerning Section 15 that are outstanding.

 

First, this text proposed by Roni did not make it into = the draft:

 

As described in section 5, CLUE uses SIP/SDP to establish = the
   session prior to exchanging any CLUE specific = information. Thus
   the security mechanisms recommended = for SIP [RFC3261], including
   user authentication and = authorization, MUST be supported.

 

[Duckworth, Mark] Thanks for catching this, it was an oversight on my = part.  It should be as you say, from Roni=E2=80=99s proposal. I = will correct it.

 

Furthermore, if the position of the WG is that it = isn=E2=80=99t even going to recommend the use of authentication, you at = least need to explain why, under what conditions, and the threats = associated with operating this way.

 

From my previous review:

 

"In
  addition, the media is based = on RTP and thus existing RTP security
  mechanisms SHOULD = be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported.
  Media = security is also discussed in [I-D.ietf-clue-signaling] = and
  [I-D.ietf-clue-rtp-mapping]."

I think = it's worth pointing out in this document that DTLS/SRTP is required to = use for CLUE-controlled m-lines.

 

[Duckworth, Mark] Roni, can you please clarify what the = group=E2=80=99s final decision was on this? I thought we decided in = April that DTLS/SRTP is mandatory to support, but not mandatory to = use.  See this email topic https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/clue/AC6H1QwQqTzSfdgOI8ZNT87= OZOA . I counted six responses, with all six in favor of mandatory = to support but not mandatory to use. I propose this alteration to the = sentence about DTLS/SRTP in the framework = document:

 

In addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security = mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and = SHOULD be used. If media is protected by other means, then DTLS/SRTP = does not need to be used.

 

 

[Roni] Mandatory to support was the consensus. The text you suggest = above clarifies.

 

Also, I just = did a quick skim of draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping and didn't see anything = in there about media security.

 

[Duckworth, Mark] Roni, should I remove this reference to the RTP = mapping document?  Or do you expect that document really will = discuss media security?

 

Roni: the new revision of RTP mapping https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping-05#section-= 10 discuss the securitry

 

"Thus, it MUST be possible for the = endpoints to establish
  a channel which is secure against = both message recovery and
  message modification. Further = details on this are provided in the
  CLUE data channel = solution document."

There are no details about how the data = channel is secured in draft-ietf-clue-datachannel (which should be cited = here if it's going to be referenced). Nor are the details in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, but rather they are in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where = they are described for rtcweb which uses a different authentication = model from clue. So how to do this actually needs to be explained either = here or in the clue data channel document for clue = specifically. 

[Duckworth, Mark] I think the data channel document is the right = place to describe how the data channel is secured. I will add a proper = reference to it in the framework.

Thanks,

Alissa

 

 

On Sep 24, 2015, at 3:04 PM, Duckworth, Mark <mark.duckworth@polycom.com= > wrote:

 

Changes = from 22 to 23:

1. &nb= sp;          Updates to = Security Considerations section.

2. &nb= sp;          Update version = number of references to other CLUE documents in = progress.

3. &nb= sp;          Change some = "MAY" to "may".

4. &nb= sp;          Fix a few = grammatical errors.

 =

Mark

__________= _____________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue

 

------=_NextPart_000_0403_01D115D0.18298490-- From nobody Mon Nov 2 16:42:53 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CC971AC3D6 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 16:42:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1nmdYDlLFAer for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 16:42:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9DD231AC3CC for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 16:42:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1665E20476 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 19:42:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontend1 ([10.202.2.160]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 02 Nov 2015 19:42:47 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h=cc :content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=mesmtp; bh=I26aP 5NzqwGlunSaeVoJ1o2hjPc=; b=PUVSyw8LsCCq8wvX52inHYRUaQZqFDI9dDRed Zhzm8nBxBCpTWf4eDA/JlX6Wmedr6zE93siBOdehwe4vc+gTPnU4O04tvKSubqY0 byTmSqegpIXCU6v23aYD5iLtg9xvCXnTnTTJikMc2xMLBIixYuMNmTeJFGi5FD2W gG2np0= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc :x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=I26aP5NzqwGlunSaeVoJ1o2hjPc=; b=kusT1 WIxt3+u6+gPtxRXDJJOfU4iTpzVAExbndRJmvsqrNxq5QvbsV8tAqwhp0F26oJSo rxTsGjn5ZWTziiYXG7d8oZ35bPE+MfEZFd9MU2bO0zCBN6KSs0Fpzk1VCmL9frNa Ya4rySOlRaEFx1iaJYagWRFpE1pYTkUJzgw+ac= X-Sasl-enc: cJrWJMY8LrQUiBAkrq8OauUQd/BwglofPjxr24hw/ws+ 1446511365 Received: from [10.24.47.130] (unknown [128.107.241.173]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 4F296C016D5; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 19:42:45 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1555D9D5-43F2-43EB-82DC-1F11B47C4FC6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CBD922A@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 09:42:44 +0900 Message-Id: References: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CACD17A@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> <1A3FD412-D384-4A6D-B892-00D64D7CBFDC@cooperw.in> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BB1D18@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CBD922A@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> To: "Duckworth, Mark" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] How is data channel secured? X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 00:42:51 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1555D9D5-43F2-43EB-82DC-1F11B47C4FC6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Something along these lines should work. > On Nov 3, 2015, at 3:54 AM, Duckworth, Mark = wrote: >=20 > We could just add what Alissa suggested to the framework: =E2=80=9CThis= can be accomplished using SIP authentication [ref SIP doc] plus DTLS = for the data channel [ref data channel doc]=E2=80=9D. And remove the = part that says details are in the data channel doc. > =20 > Does this solve the problem? > =20 > Mark > =20 > From: Christer Holmberg [mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com = ]=20 > Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 5:54 AM > To: Alissa Cooper; Duckworth, Mark > Cc: clue@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [clue] How is data channel secured? > =20 > Hi Alissa, > =20 > Thanks for your input! > =20 > So, if I understand correctly, the issue is not how to secure the data = channel, but how to secure the *signalling* that negotiates the data = channel, i.e. SIP/SDP. THAT is currently not described in the CLUE data = channel draft.=20 > =20 > So, I agree that we should either add some text about that, or refer = to another *CLUE* draft that talks about signalling security. > =20 > Regards, > =20 > Christer=20 > <>=20 > From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in = ]=20 > Sent: 31 October 2015 11:13 > To: Duckworth, Mark > > Cc: Christer Holmberg >; clue@ietf.org = > Subject: Re: [clue] How is data channel secured? > =20 > Let me try to expand on this a bit so it=E2=80=99s more clear what the = issue is. > =20 > The paragraph in question is: > =20 > "While other information in the CLUE protocol messages does not > reveal specific identities, it can reveal characteristics and > capabilities of the endpoints. That information could possibly > uniquely identify specific endpoints. It might also be possible > for an attacker to manipulate the information and disrupt the CLUE > sessions. It would also be possible to mount a DoS attack on the > CLUE endpoints if a malicious agent has access to the data > channel. Thus, it MUST be possible for the endpoints to establish > a channel which is secure against both message recovery and > message modification. Further details on this are provided in the > CLUE data channel solution document." > =20 > Thus there is a normative requirement here for endpoints to support a = mechanism that secures the data channel against message recovery and = modification. As noted, this is described for rtcweb in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch, but clue is different in that it is = relying on SIP/SDP to establish the session in the first place. So if = the solution here is SIP authentication mechanisms to setup the session = + DTLS for the data channel, then just say that. But you can=E2=80=99t = say the details are provided in another document when that document = provides no details, and you can=E2=80=99t fully rely on = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch which assumes a different framework for = authenticating the other parties in the call. > =20 > Alissa > =20 > On Oct 22, 2015, at 3:44 AM, Duckworth, Mark = > wrote: > =20 > Hello Christer, > =20 > Alissa raised an issue about the data channel document, I copied it = here: > =20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > There are no details about how the data channel is secured in = draft-ietf-clue-datachannel (which should be cited here if it's going to = be referenced). Nor are the details in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, = but rather they are in draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where they are described for rtcweb which = uses a different authentication model from clue. So how to do this = actually needs to be explained either here or in the clue data channel = document for clue specifically.=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > Do you agree with her assessment? Do we need to add something to the = data channel document about how the data channel is secured? I think it = belongs there, not in the framework. > =20 > Mark > =20 > =20 > From: clue [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org = ] On Behalf Of Duckworth, Mark > Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 4:05 PM > To: Alissa Cooper > Cc: clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] New draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 > =20 > Hi Alissa, > Thanks for the feedback. Comments below, and questions for Roni. > Mark > =20 > From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in = ]=20 > Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 8:45 AM > To: Duckworth, Mark > Cc: clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] New draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 > =20 > Thanks for these updates. There are still a few points from my = evaluation concerning Section 15 that are outstanding. > =20 > First, this text proposed by Roni did not make it into the draft: > =20 > As described in section 5, CLUE uses SIP/SDP to establish the > session prior to exchanging any CLUE specific information. Thus > the security mechanisms recommended for SIP [RFC3261], including > user authentication and authorization, MUST be supported. > =20 > [Duckworth, Mark] Thanks for catching this, it was an oversight on my = part. It should be as you say, from Roni=E2=80=99s proposal. I will = correct it. > =20 > Furthermore, if the position of the WG is that it isn=E2=80=99t even = going to recommend the use of authentication, you at least need to = explain why, under what conditions, and the threats associated with = operating this way. > =20 > =46rom my previous review: > =20 > "In > addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security > mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported. > Media security is also discussed in [I-D.ietf-clue-signaling] and > [I-D.ietf-clue-rtp-mapping]." >=20 > I think it's worth pointing out in this document that DTLS/SRTP is = required to use for CLUE-controlled m-lines.=20 > =20 > [Duckworth, Mark] Roni, can you please clarify what the group=E2=80=99s = final decision was on this? I thought we decided in April that DTLS/SRTP = is mandatory to support, but not mandatory to use. See this email topic = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/clue/AC6H1QwQqTzSfdgOI8ZNT87OZOA = = . I counted six responses, with all six in favor of mandatory to support = but not mandatory to use. I propose this alteration to the sentence = about DTLS/SRTP in the framework document: > =20 > In addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security = mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and = SHOULD be used. If media is protected by other means, then DTLS/SRTP = does not need to be used. > =20 > Also, I just did a quick skim of draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping and = didn't see anything in there about media security. > =20 > [Duckworth, Mark] Roni, should I remove this reference to the RTP = mapping document? Or do you expect that document really will discuss = media security? > =20 > "Thus, it MUST be possible for the endpoints to establish > a channel which is secure against both message recovery and > message modification. Further details on this are provided in the > CLUE data channel solution document." >=20 > There are no details about how the data channel is secured in = draft-ietf-clue-datachannel (which should be cited here if it's going to = be referenced). Nor are the details in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, = but rather they are in draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where they are described for rtcweb which = uses a different authentication model from clue. So how to do this = actually needs to be explained either here or in the clue data channel = document for clue specifically.=20 >=20 > [Duckworth, Mark] I think the data channel document is the right place = to describe how the data channel is secured. I will add a proper = reference to it in the framework. >=20 > Thanks, > Alissa > =20 > =20 > On Sep 24, 2015, at 3:04 PM, Duckworth, Mark = > wrote: > =20 > Changes from 22 to 23: > 1. Updates to Security Considerations section. > 2. Update version number of references to other CLUE = documents in progress. > 3. Change some "MAY" to "may". > 4. Fix a few grammatical errors. > =20 > Mark > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue = > =20 > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue = > =20 > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue = --Apple-Mail=_1555D9D5-43F2-43EB-82DC-1F11B47C4FC6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Something along these lines should = work.

On Nov 3, 2015, at 3:54 AM, Duckworth, Mark <mark.duckworth@polycom.com> wrote:

We could just add what Alissa  = suggested to the framework: =E2=80=9CThis can be accomplished using SIP = authentication [ref SIP doc] plus DTLS for the data channel [ref data = channel doc]=E2=80=9D.  And remove the part that says details are = in the data channel doc.
 
Does this solve the problem?
 
Mark
 
From: Christer Holmberg [mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com] 
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 = 5:54 AM
To: Alissa Cooper; Duckworth, = Mark
Cc: clue@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clue] How is data = channel secured?
 
Hi Alissa,
 
Thanks for your = input!
 
So, if I understand = correctly, the issue is not how to secure the data channel, but how to = secure the *signalling* that negotiates the data = channel, i.e. SIP/SDP. THAT is currently not described in the CLUE data = channel draft. 
 
So, I agree that we should either add some text about that, = or refer to another *CLUE* draft that talks about = signalling security.
 
Regards,
 
Christer 
 
From: Alissa = Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in] 
Sent: 31 = October 2015 11:13
To: Duckworth, Mark <mark.duckworth@polycom.com>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>; clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] How is data = channel secured?
 
Let me try to expand on this = a bit so it=E2=80=99s more clear what the issue is.
 
The paragraph in = question is:
 
"While other = information in the CLUE protocol messages does not
   reveal specific identities, it =
can reveal characteristics and
   capabilities of the endpoints.  That =
information could possibly
   uniquely identify specific endpoints.  It =
might also be possible
   for an attacker to manipulate the information =
and disrupt the CLUE
   sessions.  It would also be possible to =
mount a DoS attack on the
   CLUE endpoints if a malicious agent has access =
to the data
   channel.  Thus, it MUST be possible for the =
endpoints to establish
   a channel which is secure against both message =
recovery and
   message modification. Further details on this =
are provided in the
   CLUE data channel solution document."
 
Thus there is a normative requirement here for endpoints to = support a mechanism that secures the data channel against message = recovery and modification. As noted, this is described for rtcweb in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch, but clue is different in that it is = relying on SIP/SDP to establish the session in the first place. So if = the solution here is SIP authentication mechanisms to setup the session = + DTLS for the data channel, then just say that. But you can=E2=80=99t = say the details are provided in another document when that document = provides no details, and you can=E2=80=99t fully rely on = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch which assumes a different framework for = authenticating the other parties in the call.
 
Alissa
 
On Oct 22, 2015, at 3:44 AM, Duckworth, Mark = <mark.duckworth@polycom.com> wrote:
 
Hello = Christer,
 
Alissa raised an issue about the data channel document, I = copied it here:
 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

There are no details = about how the data channel is secured in draft-ietf-clue-datachannel = (which should be cited here if it's going to be referenced). Nor are the = details in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, but rather they are in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where = they are described for rtcweb which uses a different authentication = model from clue. So how to do this actually needs to be explained either = here or in the clue data channel document for clue = specifically. 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Do you agree = with her assessment?  Do we need to add something to the data = channel document about how the data channel is secured?  I think it = belongs there, not in the framework.
 
Mark
 
 
From: clue [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Duckworth, = Mark
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 = 4:05 PM
To: Alissa Cooper
Cc: clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] New = draft-ietf-clue-framework-23
 
Hi = Alissa,
Thanks for the feedback.  Comments below, and questions = for Roni.
Mark
 
From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in] 
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 = 8:45 AM
To: Duckworth, Mark
Cc: clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] New = draft-ietf-clue-framework-23
 
Thanks = for these updates. There are still a few points from my evaluation = concerning Section 15 that are outstanding.
 
First, this text proposed by Roni did not make = it into the draft:
 
As = described in section 5, CLUE uses SIP/SDP to establish the
   session prior to exchanging any CLUE specific = information. Thus
   the security mechanisms = recommended for SIP [RFC3261], including
   user authentication and authorization, MUST be = supported.
 
[Duckworth, = Mark] Thanks for catching this, it was an oversight on my part.  It = should be as you say, from Roni=E2=80=99s proposal. I will correct = it.
 
Furthermore, if the position of the WG is that = it isn=E2=80=99t even going to recommend the use of authentication, you = at least need to explain why, under what conditions, and the threats = associated with operating this way.
 
=46rom my previous review:
 
"In
  addition, the = media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security
  mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP = MUST be supported.
  Media security is also = discussed in [I-D.ietf-clue-signaling] and
  [I-D.ietf-clue-rtp-mapping]."

I think it's worth pointing out in this document that = DTLS/SRTP is required to use for CLUE-controlled m-lines. 
 
[Duckworth, Mark] Roni, can you please = clarify what the group=E2=80=99s final decision was on this? I thought = we decided in April that DTLS/SRTP is mandatory to support, but not = mandatory to use.  See this email topic https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/clue/AC6H1QwQqTzSfdgOI8ZN= T87OZOA . I = counted six responses, with all six in favor of mandatory to support but = not mandatory to use. I propose this alteration to the sentence about = DTLS/SRTP in the framework document:
 
In addition, the media is based on RTP and = thus existing RTP security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP = MUST be supported and SHOULD be used. If media is protected by other = means, then DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used.
 
Also, I just did a = quick skim of draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping and didn't see anything in = there about media security.
 
[Duckworth, Mark] Roni, should I remove = this reference to the RTP mapping document?  Or do you expect that = document really will discuss media security?
 

"Thus, it MUST be possible for the endpoints = to establish
  a channel which is secure against = both message recovery and
  message = modification. Further details on this are provided in the
  CLUE data channel solution document."

There are no details about how the data = channel is secured in draft-ietf-clue-datachannel (which should be cited = here if it's going to be referenced). Nor are the details in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, but rather they are in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where = they are described for rtcweb which uses a different authentication = model from clue. So how to do this actually needs to be explained either = here or in the clue data channel document for clue = specifically. 

[Duckworth, Mark] I think the data channel = document is the right place to describe how the data channel is secured. = I will add a proper reference to it in the = framework.

Thanks,
Alissa
 
 
On Sep 24, 2015, at 3:04 PM, Duckworth, Mark = <mark.duckworth@polycom.com> wrote:
 
Changes from 22 to 23:
1.          &= nbsp; Updates to Security Considerations section.
2.          &= nbsp; Update version number of references to other CLUE documents in = progress.
3.          &= nbsp; Change some "MAY" to "may".
4.          &= nbsp; Fix a few grammatical errors.
 
Mark
_______________________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
 
_______________________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
 
_______________________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
= --Apple-Mail=_1555D9D5-43F2-43EB-82DC-1F11B47C4FC6-- From nobody Mon Nov 2 17:15:46 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 255DE1ACD60 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 17:15:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gW1aPD0OiAU9 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 17:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C36C41A8778 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 17:15:26 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f79626d000006adf-21-56380aac898c Received: from ESESSHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.24]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id FF.51.27359.CAA08365; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 02:15:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.202]) by ESESSHC002.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.24]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 02:14:46 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: Alissa Cooper , "Duckworth, Mark" Thread-Topic: [clue] How is data channel secured? Thread-Index: AdEMMJa9EpzaboTXSX+ehvQyln7JiAHg1vQAAANPKHAAd5gT0AAKJwkAAAMubVA= Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 01:14:45 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BD01C4@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CACD17A@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> <1A3FD412-D384-4A6D-B892-00D64D7CBFDC@cooperw.in> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BB1D18@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CBD922A@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BD01C4ESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrOIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7hO5aLoswgymuFtPP/GW02H/qMrPF uiNPmR2YPb48ecnksWTJTyaPFw+UApijuGxSUnMyy1KL9O0SuDK6t3oVzNnMXLF2dQtzA+OX 5cxdjBwcEgImEp+2lXQxcgKZYhIX7q1n62Lk4hASOMwo0dXYzAjhLGaUeDJ7AztIA5uAhUT3 P22QBhGBcImWR49YQGxmAWWJrw2bmEBsYQEDiT23PjKClIsIGEq8/VYIUe4ncf5sFzOIzSKg IvFl4VMwm1fAV+JF40Z2iFVHmSTer9nLCJLgFLCTmPGlF6yIEei476fWMEHsEpe49WQ+E8TR AhJL9pxnhrBFJV4+/scKYStJrNh+iRGiPl/i1fQ+dohlghInZz5hmcAoOgvJqFlIymYhKZsF 9AKzgKbE+l36ECWKElO6H7JD2BoSrXPmsiOLL2BkX8UoWpxanJSbbmSkl1qUmVxcnJ+nl5da sokRGH0Ht/w22MH48rnjIUYBDkYlHt4Nm8zDhFgTy4orcw8xSnAwK4nwOu0HCvGmJFZWpRbl xxeV5qQWH2KU5mBREudtZnoQKiSQnliSmp2aWpBaBJNl4uCUamDc9v6xTM+suc0rj+48+cvQ QvKO5kOBcIdqv3z1XcV2j33Trk+0qQvteePut98whT/C8raYVnI+k8XLJcH2i4vkeizj7J06 uLRdrcJ0JFt3XU7x6v7w1nYyU/xlkdSM0lDpNv/slMqLxTu+b4z86BDceH1zVtW3+brHkjhZ VwkcbTgx/8ffU0osxRmJhlrMRcWJAA5PAyC6AgAA Archived-At: Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] How is data channel secured? 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b3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vY2x1ZTwvc3Bhbj48L2E+PG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rp dj4NCjwvYmxvY2txdW90ZT4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PG86cD4mbmJz cDs8L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BD01C4ESESSMB209erics_-- From nobody Mon Nov 2 18:09:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD5A71ACD09 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 18:09:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lEJPCCyGXgc4 for ; Mon, 2 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DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc :x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=i/RbjqB01Cimt+Zy2kgCygjVa/w=; b=Byrj1 /oFCpqNkmsFjuKCXomw5K88eR5CDaer27qSc2/3fHiypPzMENNWtH/mlwK4s/8X6 6wEKK2pnV/8y+a5c6X8euB0nFwMi68Rgmzxn/T4i2dpl4hr7OnNfSUqfDVRt+wG1 aTJ3V8WXwo4pDrA4qw1kCFcPbWwbuWtY2xp794= X-Sasl-enc: +gGafH+5qOvaMlmSEP9l1KD0xigPZEaHXquwss+0iFtt 1446516575 Received: from [10.24.47.130] (unknown [128.107.241.173]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 7E4A0C016D5; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 21:09:34 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_02510E58-BD0A-4FB3-9C01-3A0F2D22FB18" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BD01C4@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 11:09:29 +0900 Message-Id: <06128D28-99A0-4266-BA34-B120E568B4A4@cooperw.in> References: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CACD17A@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> <1A3FD412-D384-4A6D-B892-00D64D7CBFDC@cooperw.in> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BB1D18@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CBD922A@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BD01C4@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> To: Christer Holmberg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] How is data channel secured? X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 02:09:42 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_02510E58-BD0A-4FB3-9C01-3A0F2D22FB18 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Nov 3, 2015, at 10:14 AM, Christer Holmberg = wrote: >=20 > Hi, > =20 > My question is whether the text should be in the data channel draft, = or whether we will have some generic text on how to secure the CLUE = signalling, which the data channel draft can then refer to. I think the new text should go in the data channel draft. And the = current generic text about signaling in the framework draft (4th para of = section 15) should remain unchanged. Alissa=20 > =20 > Regards, > =20 > Christer > =C2=A0 <> > From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in]=20 > Sent: 03 November 2015 02:43 > To: Duckworth, Mark > Cc: Christer Holmberg ; clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] How is data channel secured? > =20 > Something along these lines should work. > =20 > On Nov 3, 2015, at 3:54 AM, Duckworth, Mark = > wrote: > =20 > We could just add what Alissa suggested to the framework: =E2=80=9CThis= can be accomplished using SIP authentication [ref SIP doc] plus DTLS = for the data channel [ref data channel doc]=E2=80=9D. And remove the = part that says details are in the data channel doc. > =20 > Does this solve the problem? > =20 > Mark > =20 > From: Christer Holmberg [mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com = ]=20 > Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 5:54 AM > To: Alissa Cooper; Duckworth, Mark > Cc: clue@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [clue] How is data channel secured? > =20 > Hi Alissa, > =20 > Thanks for your input! > =20 > So, if I understand correctly, the issue is not how to secure the data = channel, but how to secure the *signalling* that negotiates the data = channel, i.e. SIP/SDP. THAT is currently not described in the CLUE data = channel draft.=20 > =20 > So, I agree that we should either add some text about that, or refer = to another *CLUE* draft that talks about signalling security. > =20 > Regards, > =20 > Christer=20 > =20 > From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in = ]=20 > Sent: 31 October 2015 11:13 > To: Duckworth, Mark > > Cc: Christer Holmberg >; clue@ietf.org = > Subject: Re: [clue] How is data channel secured? > =20 > Let me try to expand on this a bit so it=E2=80=99s more clear what the = issue is. > =20 > The paragraph in question is: > =20 > "While other information in the CLUE protocol messages does not > reveal specific identities, it can reveal characteristics and > capabilities of the endpoints. That information could possibly > uniquely identify specific endpoints. It might also be possible > for an attacker to manipulate the information and disrupt the CLUE > sessions. It would also be possible to mount a DoS attack on the > CLUE endpoints if a malicious agent has access to the data > channel. Thus, it MUST be possible for the endpoints to establish > a channel which is secure against both message recovery and > message modification. Further details on this are provided in the > CLUE data channel solution document." > =20 > Thus there is a normative requirement here for endpoints to support a = mechanism that secures the data channel against message recovery and = modification. As noted, this is described for rtcweb in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch, but clue is different in that it is = relying on SIP/SDP to establish the session in the first place. So if = the solution here is SIP authentication mechanisms to setup the session = + DTLS for the data channel, then just say that. But you can=E2=80=99t = say the details are provided in another document when that document = provides no details, and you can=E2=80=99t fully rely on = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch which assumes a different framework for = authenticating the other parties in the call. > =20 > Alissa > =20 > On Oct 22, 2015, at 3:44 AM, Duckworth, Mark = > wrote: > =20 > Hello Christer, > =20 > Alissa raised an issue about the data channel document, I copied it = here: > =20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > There are no details about how the data channel is secured in = draft-ietf-clue-datachannel (which should be cited here if it's going to = be referenced). Nor are the details in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, = but rather they are in draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where they are described for rtcweb which = uses a different authentication model from clue. So how to do this = actually needs to be explained either here or in the clue data channel = document for clue specifically.=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > Do you agree with her assessment? Do we need to add something to the = data channel document about how the data channel is secured? I think it = belongs there, not in the framework. > =20 > Mark > =20 > =20 > From: clue [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org = ] On Behalf Of Duckworth, Mark > Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 4:05 PM > To: Alissa Cooper > Cc: clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] New draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 > =20 > Hi Alissa, > Thanks for the feedback. Comments below, and questions for Roni. > Mark > =20 > From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in = ]=20 > Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 8:45 AM > To: Duckworth, Mark > Cc: clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] New draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 > =20 > Thanks for these updates. There are still a few points from my = evaluation concerning Section 15 that are outstanding. > =20 > First, this text proposed by Roni did not make it into the draft: > =20 > As described in section 5, CLUE uses SIP/SDP to establish the > session prior to exchanging any CLUE specific information. Thus > the security mechanisms recommended for SIP [RFC3261], including > user authentication and authorization, MUST be supported. > =20 > [Duckworth, Mark] Thanks for catching this, it was an oversight on my = part. It should be as you say, from Roni=E2=80=99s proposal. I will = correct it. > =20 > Furthermore, if the position of the WG is that it isn=E2=80=99t even = going to recommend the use of authentication, you at least need to = explain why, under what conditions, and the threats associated with = operating this way. > =20 > =46rom my previous review: > =20 > "In > addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security > mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported. > Media security is also discussed in [I-D.ietf-clue-signaling] and > [I-D.ietf-clue-rtp-mapping]." >=20 > I think it's worth pointing out in this document that DTLS/SRTP is = required to use for CLUE-controlled m-lines.=20 > =20 > [Duckworth, Mark] Roni, can you please clarify what the group=E2=80=99s = final decision was on this? I thought we decided in April that DTLS/SRTP = is mandatory to support, but not mandatory to use. See this email topic = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/clue/AC6H1QwQqTzSfdgOI8ZNT87OZOA = = . I counted six responses, with all six in favor of mandatory to support = but not mandatory to use. I propose this alteration to the sentence = about DTLS/SRTP in the framework document: > =20 > In addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security = mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and = SHOULD be used. If media is protected by other means, then DTLS/SRTP = does not need to be used. > =20 > Also, I just did a quick skim of draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping and = didn't see anything in there about media security. > =20 > [Duckworth, Mark] Roni, should I remove this reference to the RTP = mapping document? Or do you expect that document really will discuss = media security? > =20 > "Thus, it MUST be possible for the endpoints to establish > a channel which is secure against both message recovery and > message modification. Further details on this are provided in the > CLUE data channel solution document." >=20 > There are no details about how the data channel is secured in = draft-ietf-clue-datachannel (which should be cited here if it's going to = be referenced). Nor are the details in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, = but rather they are in draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where they are described for rtcweb which = uses a different authentication model from clue. So how to do this = actually needs to be explained either here or in the clue data channel = document for clue specifically.=20 >=20 > [Duckworth, Mark] I think the data channel document is the right place = to describe how the data channel is secured. I will add a proper = reference to it in the framework. >=20 > Thanks, > Alissa > =20 > =20 > On Sep 24, 2015, at 3:04 PM, Duckworth, Mark = > wrote: > =20 > Changes from 22 to 23: > 1. Updates to Security Considerations section. > 2. Update version number of references to other CLUE = documents in progress. > 3. Change some "MAY" to "may". > 4. Fix a few grammatical errors. > =20 > Mark > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue = > =20 > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue = > =20 > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue = --Apple-Mail=_02510E58-BD0A-4FB3-9C01-3A0F2D22FB18 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Nov 3, 2015, at 10:14 AM, = Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,
 
My question is whether the text should be = in the data channel draft, or whether we will have some generic text on = how to secure the CLUE signalling, which the data channel draft can then = refer to.

I think the new text should go in the data channel = draft. And the current generic text about signaling in the framework = draft (4th para of section 15) should remain unchanged.

Alissa 

 
Regards,
 
Christer
 
From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in] 
Sent: 03 = November 2015 02:43
To: Duckworth, Mark <mark.duckworth@polycom.com>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>; clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] How is data = channel secured?
 
Something along these = lines should work.
 
On = Nov 3, 2015, at 3:54 AM, Duckworth, Mark <mark.duckworth@polycom.com>= wrote:
 
We could just add what Alissa  = suggested to the framework: =E2=80=9CThis can be accomplished using SIP = authentication [ref SIP doc] plus DTLS for the data channel [ref data = channel doc]=E2=80=9D.  And remove the part that says details are = in the data channel doc.
 
Does this solve the = problem?
 
Mark
 
From: Christer Holmberg [mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com] 
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 = 5:54 AM
To: Alissa Cooper; Duckworth, = Mark
Cc: clue@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clue] How is data = channel secured?
 
Hi Alissa,
 
Thanks for your = input!
 
So, if I understand correctly, the issue = is not how to secure the data channel, but how to secure the *signalling* that negotiates the data channel, i.e. = SIP/SDP. THAT is currently not described in the CLUE data channel = draft. 
 
So, I agree that we = should either add some text about that, or refer to another *CLUE* draft that talks about signalling = security.
 
Regards,
 
Christer 
 
From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in] 
Sent: 31 = October 2015 11:13
To: Duckworth, Mark <mark.duckworth@polycom.com>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>; clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] How is data = channel secured?
 
Let me try to expand on this a bit so = it=E2=80=99s more clear what the issue is.
 
The paragraph in question is:
 
"While other information in the CLUE protocol messages does = not
   reveal =
specific identities, it can reveal characteristics and
   capabilities of the endpoints.  That =
information could possibly
   =
uniquely identify specific endpoints.  It might also be =
possible
   for an attacker to =
manipulate the information and disrupt the CLUE
   sessions.  It would also be possible to =
mount a DoS attack on the
   CLUE endpoints if a =
malicious agent has access to the data
   =
channel.  Thus, it MUST be possible for the endpoints to =
establish
   a channel which is =
secure against both message recovery and
   =
message modification. Further details on this are provided in the
   CLUE data channel solution document."
 
Thus there is a normative requirement = here for endpoints to support a mechanism that secures the data channel = against message recovery and modification. As noted, this is described = for rtcweb in draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch, but clue is different in = that it is relying on SIP/SDP to establish the session in the first = place. So if the solution here is SIP authentication mechanisms to setup = the session + DTLS for the data channel, then just say that. But you = can=E2=80=99t say the details are provided in another document when that = document provides no details, and you can=E2=80=99t fully rely on = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch which assumes a different framework for = authenticating the other parties in the call.
 
Alissa
 
On Oct 22, 2015, at 3:44 AM, Duckworth, Mark <mark.duckworth@polycom.com> wrote:
 
Hello = Christer,
 
Alissa raised an issue about the data channel document, I = copied it here:
 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

There are no details about how the data channel is secured in = draft-ietf-clue-datachannel (which should be cited here if it's going to = be referenced). Nor are the details in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, = but rather they are in draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where they are described for rtcweb which = uses a different authentication model from clue. So how to do this = actually needs to be explained either here or in the clue data channel = document for clue specifically. 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Do you agree with her = assessment?  Do we need to add something to the data channel = document about how the data channel is secured?  I think it belongs = there, not in the framework.
 
Mark
 
 
From: clue [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Duckworth, = Mark
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 = 4:05 PM
To: Alissa Cooper
Cc: clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] New = draft-ietf-clue-framework-23
 
Hi = Alissa,
Thanks for the feedback.  Comments = below, and questions for Roni.
Mark
 
From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in] 
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 = 8:45 AM
To: Duckworth, Mark
Cc: clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] New = draft-ietf-clue-framework-23
 
Thanks for these = updates. There are still a few points from my evaluation concerning = Section 15 that are outstanding.
 
First, this text proposed by Roni did not make it into the = draft:
 
As described in section 5, CLUE uses SIP/SDP to = establish the
   session prior to exchanging any = CLUE specific information. Thus
   the security = mechanisms recommended for SIP [RFC3261], including
   user authentication and authorization, MUST be = supported.
 
[Duckworth, = Mark] Thanks for catching this, it was an oversight on my part.  It = should be as you say, from Roni=E2=80=99s proposal. I will correct = it.
 
Furthermore, if the position of the WG is that it isn=E2=80=99t= even going to recommend the use of authentication, you at least need to = explain why, under what conditions, and the threats associated with = operating this way.
 
=46rom my previous review:
 
"In
  addition, the media is based on = RTP and thus existing RTP security
  mechanisms = SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported.
  Media security is also discussed in = [I-D.ietf-clue-signaling] and
  [I-D.ietf-clue-rtp-mapping]."

I think it's worth pointing out in this document that = DTLS/SRTP is required to use for CLUE-controlled m-lines. 
 
[Duckworth, = Mark] Roni, can you please clarify what the group=E2=80=99s final = decision was on this? I thought we decided in April that DTLS/SRTP is = mandatory to support, but not mandatory to use.  See this email = topic https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/clue/AC6H1QwQqTzSfdgOI8ZN= T87OZOA . I = counted six responses, with all six in favor of mandatory to support but = not mandatory to use. I propose this alteration to the sentence about = DTLS/SRTP in the framework document:
 
In addition, the media is based on RTP and = thus existing RTP security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP = MUST be supported and SHOULD be used. If media is protected by other = means, then DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used.
 
Also, I just did a quick skim of = draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping and didn't see anything in there about media = security.
 
[Duckworth, Mark] Roni, should I remove = this reference to the RTP mapping document?  Or do you expect that = document really will discuss media security?
 

"Thus, it MUST = be possible for the endpoints to establish
  a = channel which is secure against both message recovery and
  message modification. Further details on this are = provided in the
  CLUE data channel solution = document."

There are no details about how = the data channel is secured in draft-ietf-clue-datachannel (which should = be cited here if it's going to be referenced). Nor are the details in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, but rather they are in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where = they are described for rtcweb which uses a different authentication = model from clue. So how to do this actually needs to be explained either = here or in the clue data channel document for clue = specifically. 

[Duckworth, Mark] I think the data channel document is the = right place to describe how the data channel is secured. I will add a = proper reference to it in the framework.

Thanks,
Alissa
 
 
On Sep 24, 2015, at 3:04 PM, Duckworth, = Mark <mark.duckworth@polycom.com> wrote:
 
Changes from 22 to 23:
1.          &= nbsp; Updates to Security Considerations section.
2.          &= nbsp; Update version number of references to other CLUE documents in = progress.
3.          &= nbsp; Change some "MAY" to "may".
4.          &= nbsp; Fix a few grammatical errors.
 
Mark
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--_000_5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CBD92D2CRPMBOXPRD08p_-- From nobody Tue Nov 3 16:49:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D1FA1A6F42 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 16:49:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZHOgvPa9mkZr for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 16:49:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x236.google.com (mail-pa0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by 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[2001:c40:0:3032:f8c3:2d61:f872:aaf8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ou3sm31692485pbb.44.2015.11.03.16.49.05 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Nov 2015 16:49:06 -0800 (PST) From: "Roni Even" To: "'Paul Kyzivat'" References: <5636BE21.7090509@alum.mit.edu> <03cb01d1157b$d4f65850$7ee308f0$@gmail.com> <56377797.80105@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <56377797.80105@alum.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 02:48:57 +0200 Message-ID: <00a801d1169a$983e9d30$c8bbd790$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQHcQRO37rVDgr7MxEPV2+oFlDVdIwEu1GQhAr1Lu1yeVVGKQA== Content-Language: he Archived-At: Cc: 'CLUE' Subject: Re: [clue] CLUE and rtcp-mux X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2015 00:49:13 -0000 Hi Paul, Agree that we must use RTCP mux. I think the only other case is if we have a separate bundle group to the = media that will be offered later. But since the MMUSIC bundle draft now = mandate using RTCP mux we will not have a problem Roni -----Original Message----- From: Paul Kyzivat [mailto:pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu]=20 Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 4:48 PM To: Roni Even Cc: 'CLUE' Subject: Re: CLUE and rtcp-mux On 11/2/15 9:36 AM, Roni Even wrote: > Hi Paul, > I read section 7 of the signaling draft and I am not that clear what = it says. > To me it looks that when you use bundle you may offer the clue=20 > controlled m-lines in the initial offer as bundled since there will be = > no issue of opening multiple ports if bundle is negotiated, I'm in the midst of a meeting right now, so I can't go read the spec.=20 The following is from memory. I think the first offer will normally have the initial, non-clue, media = plus the data channel. The data channel might be the only thing in a = bundle, or not. Then, when switching into clue mode, if using bundle, I think one would = put the new clue m-lines into the bundle, along with the data channel.=20 In that case, I think the new m-lines would be bundle-only, and the = bundle address/port will be determined by the clue channel. But then we = have the problem of what is used for rtcp. I think the only answer in = that case is that rtcp-mux *must* be used. Thanks, Paul > Roni > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Kyzivat [mailto:pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu] > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 3:37 AM > To: Roni Even > Cc: CLUE > Subject: CLUE and rtcp-mux > > Roni, > > (This is regarding the rtp-mux issue just discussed in mmusic.) > > I think we may have a problem with this in clue already. > > It is likely that initially in clue (if using bundle) there will be a = bundle group with only an sctp m-line for the data channel. So there = will be no rtcp port. > > Then, after some clue channel messages, there will be another O/A to=20 > add media streams. You won't want to change which m-line is selected=20 > for the bundle address in this case, and you will probably want to=20 > make all of the new m-lines bundle-only. I don't see how we could=20 > expect that to work without rtcp-mux. It is a logical necessity, but=20 > we probably ought to say something about it. (In the signaling draft.) > > Thanks, > Paul > > From nobody Tue Nov 3 17:19:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9920B1A8845 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 17:19:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JJUIqrTgB0B4 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 17:18:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F2461A8843 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 17:18:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61DF320834 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 20:18:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontend2 ([10.202.2.161]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 03 Nov 2015 20:18:57 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h=cc :content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=mesmtp; bh=poJoL JHRRpSjipCC8md/NkXYHgA=; b=S/Ta9LG2XY98bfarwLwXAxXCtet43m4Y9fGUo RQXwCw9UX/0QhjYQjIcxdsrB5zASzHVFPihk/jOL39pn220eTZrLcl6Z/xrHsDU9 h40EP1tm1LgMlco51qiHiG4ZPW0HEkOTgmQ67MIuwqws8oyZMGxzg+35h15oOIqN ze+jXo= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc :x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=poJoLJHRRpSjipCC8md/NkXYHgA=; b=QztIu BPU/3oP1GRcXA7xatGMp7n9rv85AckrzSbpJ5B2Na37AIwaF+0zRf6Np4vDoyadE sx6mH6aiW+plCrJf+wjwtdkzzZb4X9hrphboIv82zackyAIjSrlI4akpt+lJttqK 1LDPqhMWd8UZDIZcrsbEB2VZI4hRnU7/sJCaJQ= X-Sasl-enc: IOUG4DWE1p7bxdu6ghkoXsDg6l5UwUfKCEr3XEaK+rYv 1446599936 Received: from [10.24.245.225] (unknown [128.107.241.190]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 3AA32680190; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 20:18:54 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2C04E300-96D8-44A4-A785-B809B60A3973" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CBD92D2@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 10:18:51 +0900 Message-Id: <3474ABD2-44DB-4B6D-810E-3C57E868C7AC@cooperw.in> References: <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CACD17A@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> <1A3FD412-D384-4A6D-B892-00D64D7CBFDC@cooperw.in> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BB1D18@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CBD922A@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BD01C4@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <06128D28-99A0-4266-BA34-B120E568B4A4@cooperw.in> <5C4AC54BFF7A0842A6A11F554D6FB52FC16CBD92D2@CRPMBOXPRD08.polycom.com> To: "Duckworth, Mark" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] How is data channel secured? X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2015 01:19:02 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2C04E300-96D8-44A4-A785-B809B60A3973 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Nov 3, 2015, at 11:13 PM, Duckworth, Mark = wrote: >=20 > So if we add that new sentence (or similar) to the data channel draft, = then this text can stay in the framework: > =20 > =E2=80=9CThus, it MUST be possible for the endpoints to establish a = channel which is secure against both message recovery and message = modification. Further details on this are provided in the CLUE data = channel solution document.=E2=80=9D [add proper reference to data = channel draft] > =20 > Do you agree? Yes. The changes to the data channel draft will probably require a bit = more than just adding the sentence, given what is there now, but as far = as the framework goes I think what you suggest above will work. Alissa > =20 > Mark > =20 > From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in = ]=20 > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 9:09 PM > To: Christer Holmberg > Cc: Duckworth, Mark; clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] How is data channel secured? > =20 > =20 > On Nov 3, 2015, at 10:14 AM, Christer Holmberg = > = wrote: > =20 > Hi, > =20 > My question is whether the text should be in the data channel draft, = or whether we will have some generic text on how to secure the CLUE = signalling, which the data channel draft can then refer to. > =20 > I think the new text should go in the data channel draft. And the = current generic text about signaling in the framework draft (4th para of = section 15) should remain unchanged. > =20 > Alissa=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 > Regards, > =20 > Christer > =C2=A0 <> > From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in = ]=20 > Sent: 03 November 2015 02:43 > To: Duckworth, Mark > > Cc: Christer Holmberg >; clue@ietf.org = > Subject: Re: [clue] How is data channel secured? > =20 > Something along these lines should work. > =20 > On Nov 3, 2015, at 3:54 AM, Duckworth, Mark = > wrote: > =20 > We could just add what Alissa suggested to the framework: =E2=80=9CThis= can be accomplished using SIP authentication [ref SIP doc] plus DTLS = for the data channel [ref data channel doc]=E2=80=9D. And remove the = part that says details are in the data channel doc. > =20 > Does this solve the problem? > =20 > Mark > =20 > From: Christer Holmberg [mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com = ]=20 > Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 5:54 AM > To: Alissa Cooper; Duckworth, Mark > Cc: clue@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [clue] How is data channel secured? > =20 > Hi Alissa, > =20 > Thanks for your input! > =20 > So, if I understand correctly, the issue is not how to secure the data = channel, but how to secure the *signalling* that negotiates the data = channel, i.e. SIP/SDP. THAT is currently not described in the CLUE data = channel draft.=20 > =20 > So, I agree that we should either add some text about that, or refer = to another *CLUE* draft that talks about signalling security. > =20 > Regards, > =20 > Christer=20 > =20 > From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in = ]=20 > Sent: 31 October 2015 11:13 > To: Duckworth, Mark > > Cc: Christer Holmberg >; clue@ietf.org = > Subject: Re: [clue] How is data channel secured? > =20 > Let me try to expand on this a bit so it=E2=80=99s more clear what the = issue is. > =20 > The paragraph in question is: > =20 > "While other information in the CLUE protocol messages does not > reveal specific identities, it can reveal characteristics and > capabilities of the endpoints. That information could possibly > uniquely identify specific endpoints. It might also be possible > for an attacker to manipulate the information and disrupt the CLUE > sessions. It would also be possible to mount a DoS attack on the > CLUE endpoints if a malicious agent has access to the data > channel. Thus, it MUST be possible for the endpoints to establish > a channel which is secure against both message recovery and > message modification. Further details on this are provided in the > CLUE data channel solution document." > =20 > Thus there is a normative requirement here for endpoints to support a = mechanism that secures the data channel against message recovery and = modification. As noted, this is described for rtcweb in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch, but clue is different in that it is = relying on SIP/SDP to establish the session in the first place. So if = the solution here is SIP authentication mechanisms to setup the session = + DTLS for the data channel, then just say that. But you can=E2=80=99t = say the details are provided in another document when that document = provides no details, and you can=E2=80=99t fully rely on = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch which assumes a different framework for = authenticating the other parties in the call. > =20 > Alissa > =20 > On Oct 22, 2015, at 3:44 AM, Duckworth, Mark = > wrote: > =20 > Hello Christer, > =20 > Alissa raised an issue about the data channel document, I copied it = here: > =20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > There are no details about how the data channel is secured in = draft-ietf-clue-datachannel (which should be cited here if it's going to = be referenced). Nor are the details in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, = but rather they are in draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where they are described for rtcweb which = uses a different authentication model from clue. So how to do this = actually needs to be explained either here or in the clue data channel = document for clue specifically.=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > Do you agree with her assessment? Do we need to add something to the = data channel document about how the data channel is secured? I think it = belongs there, not in the framework. > =20 > Mark > =20 > =20 > From: clue [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org = ] On Behalf Of Duckworth, Mark > Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 4:05 PM > To: Alissa Cooper > Cc: clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] New draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 > =20 > Hi Alissa, > Thanks for the feedback. Comments below, and questions for Roni. > Mark > =20 > From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in = ]=20 > Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 8:45 AM > To: Duckworth, Mark > Cc: clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] New draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 > =20 > Thanks for these updates. There are still a few points from my = evaluation concerning Section 15 that are outstanding. > =20 > First, this text proposed by Roni did not make it into the draft: > =20 > As described in section 5, CLUE uses SIP/SDP to establish the > session prior to exchanging any CLUE specific information. Thus > the security mechanisms recommended for SIP [RFC3261], including > user authentication and authorization, MUST be supported. > =20 > [Duckworth, Mark] Thanks for catching this, it was an oversight on my = part. It should be as you say, from Roni=E2=80=99s proposal. I will = correct it. > =20 > Furthermore, if the position of the WG is that it isn=E2=80=99t even = going to recommend the use of authentication, you at least need to = explain why, under what conditions, and the threats associated with = operating this way. > =20 > =46rom my previous review: > =20 > "In > addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security > mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported. > Media security is also discussed in [I-D.ietf-clue-signaling] and > [I-D.ietf-clue-rtp-mapping]." >=20 > I think it's worth pointing out in this document that DTLS/SRTP is = required to use for CLUE-controlled m-lines.=20 > =20 > [Duckworth, Mark] Roni, can you please clarify what the group=E2=80=99s = final decision was on this? I thought we decided in April that DTLS/SRTP = is mandatory to support, but not mandatory to use. See this email topic = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/clue/AC6H1QwQqTzSfdgOI8ZNT87OZOA = = . I counted six responses, with all six in favor of mandatory to support = but not mandatory to use. I propose this alteration to the sentence = about DTLS/SRTP in the framework document: > =20 > In addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security = mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and = SHOULD be used. If media is protected by other means, then DTLS/SRTP = does not need to be used. > =20 > Also, I just did a quick skim of draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping and = didn't see anything in there about media security. > =20 > [Duckworth, Mark] Roni, should I remove this reference to the RTP = mapping document? Or do you expect that document really will discuss = media security? > =20 > "Thus, it MUST be possible for the endpoints to establish > a channel which is secure against both message recovery and > message modification. Further details on this are provided in the > CLUE data channel solution document." >=20 > There are no details about how the data channel is secured in = draft-ietf-clue-datachannel (which should be cited here if it's going to = be referenced). Nor are the details in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, = but rather they are in draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where they are described for rtcweb which = uses a different authentication model from clue. So how to do this = actually needs to be explained either here or in the clue data channel = document for clue specifically.=20 >=20 > [Duckworth, Mark] I think the data channel document is the right place = to describe how the data channel is secured. I will add a proper = reference to it in the framework. >=20 > Thanks, > Alissa > =20 > =20 > On Sep 24, 2015, at 3:04 PM, Duckworth, Mark = > wrote: > =20 > Changes from 22 to 23: > 1. Updates to Security Considerations section. > 2. Update version number of references to other CLUE = documents in progress. > 3. Change some "MAY" to "may". > 4. Fix a few grammatical errors. > =20 > Mark > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue = > =20 > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue = > =20 > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue = --Apple-Mail=_2C04E300-96D8-44A4-A785-B809B60A3973 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Nov 3, 2015, at 11:13 PM, Duckworth, Mark <mark.duckworth@polycom.com> wrote:

So if we add that new sentence (or = similar) to the data channel draft, then this text can stay in the = framework:
 
=E2=80=9CThus, it MUST be possible for = the endpoints to establish a channel which is secure against both = message recovery and message modification. Further details on this are = provided in the CLUE data channel solution document.=E2=80=9D [add = proper reference to data channel draft]
 
Do = you agree?

Yes. The changes to the data channel draft will = probably require a bit more than just adding the sentence, given what is = there now, but as far as the framework goes I think what you suggest = above will work.

Alissa

 
Mark
 
From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in] 
Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 = 9:09 PM
To: Christer Holmberg
Cc: Duckworth, Mark; clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] How is data = channel secured?
 
 
On Nov 3, 2015, at = 10:14 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
 
Hi,
 
My question is whether = the text should be in the data channel draft, or whether we will have = some generic text on how to secure the CLUE signalling, which the data = channel draft can then refer to.
 
I think the new text should go in the data channel = draft. And the current generic text about signaling in the framework = draft (4th para of section 15) should remain unchanged.
 
Alissa 


 
Regards,
 
Christer
From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in] 
Sent: 03 = November 2015 02:43
To: Duckworth, Mark <mark.duckworth@polycom.com>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>; clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] How is data = channel secured?
 
Something along these lines should = work.
 
On = Nov 3, 2015, at 3:54 AM, Duckworth, Mark <mark.duckworth@polycom.com> wrote:
 
We could just add what = Alissa  suggested to the framework: =E2=80=9CThis can be = accomplished using SIP authentication [ref SIP doc] plus DTLS for the = data channel [ref data channel doc]=E2=80=9D.  And remove the part = that says details are in the data channel doc.
 
Does this solve the problem?
 
Mark
 
From: Christer Holmberg [mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com] 
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 = 5:54 AM
To: Alissa Cooper; Duckworth, = Mark
Cc: clue@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clue] How is data = channel secured?
 
Hi = Alissa,
 
Thanks for your input!
 
So, if I understand correctly, the issue = is not how to secure the data channel, but how to secure the *signalling* that negotiates the data channel, i.e. = SIP/SDP. THAT is currently not described in the CLUE data channel = draft. 
 
So, I agree that we should either add some = text about that, or refer to another *CLUE* draft that = talks about signalling security.
 
Regards,
 
Christer 
 
From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in] 
Sent: 31 = October 2015 11:13
To: Duckworth, Mark <mark.duckworth@polycom.com>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>; clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] How is data = channel secured?
 
Let me try to expand = on this a bit so it=E2=80=99s more clear what the issue is.
 
The paragraph in question is:
 
"While other = information in the CLUE protocol messages does not
   reveal =
specific identities, it can reveal characteristics and
   capabilities of the endpoints.  That =
information could possibly
   =
uniquely identify specific endpoints.  It might also be =
possible
   for an attacker to =
manipulate the information and disrupt the CLUE
   sessions.  It would also be possible to =
mount a DoS attack on the
   CLUE endpoints if a =
malicious agent has access to the data
   =
channel.  Thus, it MUST be possible for the endpoints to =
establish
   a channel which is =
secure against both message recovery and
   =
message modification. Further details on this are provided in the
   CLUE data channel solution document."
 
Thus = there is a normative requirement here for endpoints to support a = mechanism that secures the data channel against message recovery and = modification. As noted, this is described for rtcweb in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch, but clue is different in that it is = relying on SIP/SDP to establish the session in the first place. So if = the solution here is SIP authentication mechanisms to setup the session = + DTLS for the data channel, then just say that. But you can=E2=80=99t = say the details are provided in another document when that document = provides no details, and you can=E2=80=99t fully rely on = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch which assumes a different framework for = authenticating the other parties in the call.
 
Alissa
 
On Oct 22, 2015, at 3:44 AM, Duckworth, = Mark <mark.duckworth@polycom.com> wrote:
 
Hello Christer,
 
Alissa raised an issue about the data = channel document, I copied it here:
 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

There are no details about how the data channel is = secured in draft-ietf-clue-datachannel (which should be cited here if = it's going to be referenced). Nor are the details in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, but rather they are in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where = they are described for rtcweb which uses a different authentication = model from clue. So how to do this actually needs to be explained either = here or in the clue data channel document for clue = specifically. 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Do you agree with her = assessment?  Do we need to add something to the data channel = document about how the data channel is secured?  I think it belongs = there, not in the framework.
 
Mark
 
 
From: clue [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Duckworth, = Mark
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 = 4:05 PM
To: Alissa Cooper
Cc: clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] New = draft-ietf-clue-framework-23
 
Hi Alissa,
Thanks for the feedback.  Comments = below, and questions for Roni.
Mark
 
From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in] 
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 = 8:45 AM
To: Duckworth, Mark
Cc: clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] New = draft-ietf-clue-framework-23
 
Thanks for these updates. There are still = a few points from my evaluation concerning Section 15 that are = outstanding.
 
First, this text proposed by Roni did not make it into the = draft:
 
As described in section 5, CLUE uses SIP/SDP to = establish the
   session prior to exchanging any = CLUE specific information. Thus
   the security = mechanisms recommended for SIP [RFC3261], including
   user authentication and authorization, MUST be = supported.
 
[Duckworth, Mark] Thanks for catching this, it was an = oversight on my part.  It should be as you say, from Roni=E2=80=99s = proposal. I will correct it.
 
Furthermore, if the position of the WG is that it isn=E2=80=99t= even going to recommend the use of authentication, you at least need to = explain why, under what conditions, and the threats associated with = operating this way.
 
=46rom my previous review:
 
"In
  addition, = the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security
  mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP = MUST be supported.
  Media security is also = discussed in [I-D.ietf-clue-signaling] and
  [I-D.ietf-clue-rtp-mapping]."

I think it's worth pointing out in this document that = DTLS/SRTP is required to use for CLUE-controlled m-lines. 
 
[Duckworth, = Mark] Roni, can you please clarify what the group=E2=80=99s final = decision was on this? I thought we decided in April that DTLS/SRTP is = mandatory to support, but not mandatory to use.  See this email = topic https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/clue/AC6H1QwQqTzSfdgOI8ZN= T87OZOA . I = counted six responses, with all six in favor of mandatory to support but = not mandatory to use. I propose this alteration to the sentence about = DTLS/SRTP in the framework document:
 
In addition, = the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security mechanisms = SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOULD be used. = If media is protected by other means, then DTLS/SRTP does not need to be = used.
 
Also, = I just did a quick skim of draft-ietf-clue-rtp-mapping and didn't see = anything in there about media security.
 
[Duckworth, = Mark] Roni, should I remove this reference to the RTP mapping = document?  Or do you expect that document really will discuss media = security?
 

"Thus, it MUST = be possible for the endpoints to establish
  a = channel which is secure against both message recovery and
  message modification. Further details on this are = provided in the
  CLUE data channel solution = document."

There are no details about how = the data channel is secured in draft-ietf-clue-datachannel (which should = be cited here if it's going to be referenced). Nor are the details in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel, but rather they are in = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch and draft-ietf-rtcweb-security, where = they are described for rtcweb which uses a different authentication = model from clue. So how to do this actually needs to be explained either = here or in the clue data channel document for clue = specifically. 

[Duckworth, Mark] I think the data channel document is the = right place to describe how the data channel is secured. I will add a = proper reference to it in the framework.

Thanks,
Alissa
 
 
On Sep 24, 2015, at = 3:04 PM, Duckworth, Mark <mark.duckworth@polycom.com> wrote:
 
Changes from 22 to 23:
1.          &= nbsp; Updates to Security Considerations section.
2.          &= nbsp; Update version number of references to other CLUE documents in = progress.
3.          &= nbsp; Change some "MAY" to "may".
4.          &= nbsp; Fix a few grammatical errors.
 
Mark
_______________________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
 
_______________________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
 
_______________________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue

= --Apple-Mail=_2C04E300-96D8-44A4-A785-B809B60A3973-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 16:33:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F92A1B2C7D for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 16:33:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jhjiFq7u_vwd for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 16:33:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22e.google.com (mail-pa0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FA4F1B2C00 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 16:33:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by pasz6 with SMTP id z6so70430649pas.2 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 16:33:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type :thread-index:content-language; bh=2QS/fHxikkkDUT7apUT/Uqffn/Jdza7nF2ASmu+ZxTU=; b=PtaBziNIW/SPzhWEqQW6TeNUh34pdHoJ84DIKvHnqFTzEep+n7Wzy6zNvjBksyG7mi gH2l2NPkbiWgcZKEwgF1SULmT+ZXr57g1Ng1yDkrMIHXnS27zDwJpaswqjLznXRVDyIi XN3f95bJanUnNmxQlxnIqcpTIsVdpkjwsRWhLkpkY9t8I9UP9NEa+oAYyf4j1RyRq8hA R7QWhjJHNmnQywj0scUClXty289Sq3EUkIcuN1pi7OD+mQO4h2G7Xz9cp/d6XGJaSMEE lLY8F9GBpWCopAaLx1O11IaqexONACUiK0PMPW3+4OawdOjMQIu56JfOORalnYzTc8rD h3ww== X-Received: by 10.66.124.135 with SMTP id mi7mr5827727pab.102.1446683633072; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 16:33:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from RoniPC (t20010c40000030328cf2e14b6f888fe9.v6.meeting.ietf94.jp. [2001:c40:0:3032:8cf2:e14b:6f88:8fe9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id yq2sm4233624pbb.39.2015.11.04.16.33.50 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Nov 2015 16:33:51 -0800 (PST) From: "Roni Even" To: "Duckworth, Mark" Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 02:33:41 +0200 Message-ID: <012301d11761$a0e8c150$e2ba43f0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0124_01D11772.647254A0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AdEXYD25Vot8zVQsRB63m/43lJEZxg== Content-Language: he Archived-At: Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: [clue] Media security in draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 00:33:55 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0124_01D11772.647254A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, The current text in the document is: "In addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported." At the CLUE session in the chair presentation slide we suggested "In addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOULD be used. If media is protected by other means [RFC7201], then DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used." This text means that the RTP channel MUST be secure by some means but in order to better clarify it I suggest that we change it to: "In addition, the media is based on RTP and MUST be secure. Existing RTP security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOULD be used. DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used when RTP media is secured by other means see [RFC7201] and [RFC7202]" Does this looks OK? Thanks Roni ------=_NextPart_000_0124_01D11772.647254A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

The = current text in the document is:

“In addition, the media is based on RTP and = thus existing RTP security   mechanisms SHOULD be supported, = and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported.”

 

At the CLUE = session in the chair presentation slide we suggested

 

“In = addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security = mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and = SHOULD be used. If media is protected by other means [RFC7201], then = DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used.”

 

This text = means that the RTP channel MUST be secure by some means but in order to = better clarify it I suggest that we change it to:

 

“In = addition, the media is based on RTP and MUST be secure. Existing RTP = security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported = and SHOULD be used.  DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used when RTP = media is secured by other means  see [RFC7201] and = [RFC7202]”

 

Does this = looks OK?

 

Thanks

Roni

------=_NextPart_000_0124_01D11772.647254A0-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 16:59:19 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 138E21A6FBA for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 16:59:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IO19nmzn41pP for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 16:59:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-x236.google.com (mail-oi0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4AD41A8034 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 16:59:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by oiad129 with SMTP id d129so38511451oia.0 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 16:59:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=74Vda635vVpb1aMlBuLgvhfEDpOqtiDiM79fE2H1NmI=; b=XKRNCucQALYBtnb2TjQIOOrLWgZZ0PyDlUTy/2m2L7BiKJh0ZR0CQiqeYux5hUtWQ/ 96iLsexy1UGBRGkR8OVA4lrrGBGao6tg1Tr/25vmVKPKU2I44jdL+Mn1Zena++YcOk4D hqFGljaJHX/zHkH5/MvLBuggRkqnYGrUC9PIKZVMkoy0bTYVaMn/Z2hHrgtKCT74QrJk yjEjWZn76MU660WRRHjc/f/ZLysKDfclVT63DzJEiIMvgeUqm59MoKTMy/Zbzk5jygPc MDSm7SZtoU0Xu6fxuVCrn2rcPyTUBx3uCNlGjbk3+ly2OSFCJOiIsEhF9YL9ZvSPvUIq Zs7g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.90.139 with SMTP id o133mr2450635oib.41.1446685154173; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 16:59:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.202.87.14 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 16:59:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 19:59:14 -0500 Message-ID: From: Daniel Burnett To: "clue@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113d233ab76a2b0523c0a2c2 Archived-At: Subject: [clue] Draft minutes posted X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 00:59:19 -0000 --001a113d233ab76a2b0523c0a2c2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Group, I have compiled the notes from the notetakers into a draft minutes, posted here: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/minutes/minutes-94-clue Please take a look and let us know if anything needs to be added/corrected. -- dan (for the chairs) --001a113d233ab76a2b0523c0a2c2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Group,

I have compiled the not= es from the notetakers into a draft minutes, posted here:
https://www.ietf.= org/proceedings/94/minutes/minutes-94-clue

Please take a l= ook and let us know if anything needs to be added/corrected.

-= - dan (for the chairs)


--001a113d233ab76a2b0523c0a2c2-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 17:24:19 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 051BE1B35B7 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:24:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pMHR26s8YaHh for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:24:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-x232.google.com (mail-oi0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3EF741B35BB for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:24:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by oifu63 with SMTP id u63so39147030oif.2 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 17:24:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=B6wKPLGXJ5e0rGFX5NF5ftjC7nm7cRD9pNkoLg4T8PY=; b=As3QlefTADJSduh3d9BeZf2Jbn7nU0VlIHYi/NKj/T+goo3SGs13kFJTVKdyndfmx7 IsWhxsMPRolxMdbonQxXYYYELo0vncPwTF6t103YSfWeAXyJBr2KWHmynK/9bgf/PWrH 1xTN1UcV5JK37xM2aKAyxHDNPxtEP22mTo4oCtfh7nUMGhZYlPKiJCTex7kRxWi/laOj UE+nII/JvDIQrEvimxJ8S6T3XOXddJ/JY2c1zdmnon+rCB3OiQrE0BhmcZZRU3YaUydQ eiW9Kw1bgxIGcgC7svNcqgOcxggDzcpv4klGBNCvnSxO8yDEqVwANSiRvDWepS6X+nLI 5MLQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.104.24 with SMTP id d24mr2722652oic.57.1446686643643; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 17:24:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.202.87.14 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:24:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <012301d11761$a0e8c150$e2ba43f0$@gmail.com> References: <012301d11761$a0e8c150$e2ba43f0$@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 20:24:03 -0500 Message-ID: From: Daniel Burnett To: Roni Even Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1140f6f27eea170523c0fb86 Archived-At: Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] Media security in draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 01:24:18 -0000 --001a1140f6f27eea170523c0fb86 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Roni Even wrote: > Hi, > > The current text in the document is: > > =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP sec= urity > mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported.=E2=80=9D > > > > At the CLUE session in the chair presentation slide we suggested > > > > =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP sec= urity > mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOUL= D > be used. If media is protected by other means [RFC7201], then DTLS/SRTP > does not need to be used.=E2=80=9D > > > > This text means that the RTP channel MUST be secure by some means but in > order to better clarify it I suggest that we change it to: > > > > =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and MUST be secure. Exist= ing RTP > security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported > and SHOULD be used. DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used when RTP media is > secured by other means see [RFC7201] and [RFC7202]=E2=80=9D > Why don't we just be more explicit? How about "In addition, the media MUST be secured. DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOULD be used unless the media, which is based on RTP, is secured by one of the other means documented in [RFC7201]." > > Does this looks OK? > > > > Thanks > > Roni > --001a1140f6f27eea170523c0fb86 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Roni Even <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com= > wrote:

Hi,

The current text in the document is:=

=E2=80=9CIn addition= , the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security=C2=A0=C2=A0 mech= anisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported.=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

At the CLUE session in the chair presentation slide we sugge= sted

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and thus e= xisting RTP security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be = supported and SHOULD be used. If media is protected by other means [RFC7201= ], then DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used.=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

This text = means that the RTP channel MUST be secure by some means but in order to bet= ter clarify it I suggest that we change it to:

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9CIn addi= tion, the media is based on RTP and MUST be secure. Existing RTP security m= echanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOULD b= e used.=C2=A0 DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used when RTP media is secured = by other means =C2=A0see [RFC7201] and [RFC7202]=E2=80=9D


Why don't we just be more explicit?=C2= =A0 How about

"In addition, the media MUST be secure= d.=C2=A0 DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOULD be used unless the media, w= hich is based on RTP, is secured by one of the other means documented in [R= FC7201]."

=C2=A0

Does this looks OK?

=C2=A0<= u>

Thanks

Roni


--001a1140f6f27eea170523c0fb86-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 18:18:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58E671B36C6 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:18:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9QavHi-YRlJW for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:18:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50C5A1B3653 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:18:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB1D120B34 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:18:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontend2 ([10.202.2.161]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 04 Nov 2015 21:18:19 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h=cc :content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=mesmtp; bh=7BIqW i1a4Snr7heXl9LIVB50vLg=; b=MJqfmkvnutkHAxrdc0Wgsi8IvXZZH0fb7QwiH O565qkv9bIx7d9PFtIU9LRGIVh443UI3FUT8JuVU92eRbrfldVhR+iIvQwAeDDES hWaP/72uQnRRPiDQbFjrSQrS4Fxj5UNEXl7fFOqMlzOovDhBPkQvKLYN/zuu3vo5 kEOzlU= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc :x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=7BIqWi1a4Snr7heXl9LIVB50vLg=; b=EG7eH mujjK2O8IKlLTlG6Sli4J6FvNvZKbyQRnoTvb4JaXVHE+V1xtE3t5kLGY9T/QfaC S+e1CKArsnUoRYb3bzvP9CRg4Pr+oJUfYav02G+6JTlPlBd10ooeGYIUSSy8iiSm qiBYrm9rBz6zxba1fho3mF6YQxO3Oc6hqJI+lQ= X-Sasl-enc: j+40t8Pqg+D7owIjUclx/PC4HjQL6UCqqxzghwXiTOwJ 1446689898 Received: from [10.24.188.39] (unknown [128.107.241.169]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id DD62568007E; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:18:14 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_31AAADB5-FAE1-4F42-B08F-AC0E7BD7C83C" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 11:17:53 +0900 Message-Id: <2CA43365-3C91-45EE-88AD-09554BD4DFDB@cooperw.in> References: <012301d11761$a0e8c150$e2ba43f0$@gmail.com> To: Daniel Burnett X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] Media security in draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 02:18:22 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_31AAADB5-FAE1-4F42-B08F-AC0E7BD7C83C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Nov 5, 2015, at 10:24 AM, Daniel Burnett = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Roni Even > wrote: > Hi, >=20 > The current text in the document is: >=20 > =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP = security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be = supported.=E2=80=9D >=20 > =20 >=20 > At the CLUE session in the chair presentation slide we suggested >=20 > =20 >=20 > =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP = security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported = and SHOULD be used. If media is protected by other means [RFC7201], then = DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used.=E2=80=9D >=20 > =20 >=20 > This text means that the RTP channel MUST be secure by some means but = in order to better clarify it I suggest that we change it to: >=20 > =20 >=20 > =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and MUST be secure. = Existing RTP security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST = be supported and SHOULD be used. DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used = when RTP media is secured by other means see [RFC7201] and [RFC7202]=E2=80= =9D >=20 >=20 > Why don't we just be more explicit? How about >=20 > "In addition, the media MUST be secured. DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported = and SHOULD be used unless the media, which is based on RTP, is secured = by one of the other means documented in [RFC7201].=E2=80=9D WFM Alissa >=20 > =20 >=20 > Does this looks OK? >=20 > =20 >=20 > Thanks >=20 > Roni >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_31AAADB5-FAE1-4F42-B08F-AC0E7BD7C83C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Nov 5, 2015, at 10:24 AM, Daniel Burnett <danielcburnett@gmail.com> wrote:



On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Roni Even <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com> = wrote:

Hi,

The current text in the document is:

=E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and thus = existing RTP security   mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and = DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported.=E2=80=9D

 

At the = CLUE session in the chair presentation slide we suggested

 

=E2=80=9C= In addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security = mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and = SHOULD be used. If media is protected by other means [RFC7201], then = DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used.=E2=80=9D

 

This text means that the RTP = channel MUST be secure by some means but in order to better clarify it I = suggest that we change it to:

 

=E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and = MUST be secure. Existing RTP security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, = and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOULD be used.  DTLS/SRTP does = not need to be used when RTP media is secured by other means  see = [RFC7201] and [RFC7202]=E2=80=9D


Why don't we just be = more explicit?  How about

"In addition, the media MUST be secured.  DTLS/SRTP MUST = be supported and SHOULD be used unless the media, which is based on RTP, = is secured by one of the other means documented in = [RFC7201].=E2=80=9D

WFM
Alissa


 

Does this looks OK?

 

Thanks

Roni



= --Apple-Mail=_31AAADB5-FAE1-4F42-B08F-AC0E7BD7C83C-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 18:23:51 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0E0F1B38F3 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:23:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XF0C0-QhuZZ0 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:23:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22e.google.com (mail-pa0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 729F01B38DC for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:23:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by padhx2 with SMTP id hx2so63161693pad.1 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 18:23:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-type:thread-index:content-language; bh=uBQVPWNdmo0LnKA0cL2lt++4cSaetDEjBXtfu/ic9jo=; b=e5CL4RvdAJhpQpua19Bq+eVH+g2nD+SEf3DcBtpS/8s7uA0H9PEMtj7zPdpX2nit1D JpEv4R3EhDtfvcwNJjIxTF+pJfWqdvFhSzhYzYVysNiDcbZl27pMJ9k3sraudFdJaNfk QG/MyWT7Y0DSPCHdZZ8xbKxIXJOfFLtkSjt82PmbBZWdnblfoVgRvZqScUsqWQNpP/KX c36jjUM4AbCs7jIeK+fdFEYPukk44YaF7cY5dEl8MWpi/83aBl7fsPqI2RseJemnAxw7 JOZ8MWK0OO06iQjeKxQesm3VWjdGI8ZCmhVIkSmVduTYuujBYB9Srw5PkHy23MkDN1iP 8K4w== X-Received: by 10.68.192.133 with SMTP id hg5mr6260286pbc.63.1446690223988; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 18:23:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from RoniPC (t20010c40000030328cf2e14b6f888fe9.v6.meeting.ietf94.jp. [2001:c40:0:3032:8cf2:e14b:6f88:8fe9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id kd9sm4531092pbb.32.2015.11.04.18.23.40 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Nov 2015 18:23:43 -0800 (PST) From: "Roni Even" To: "'Daniel Burnett'" References: <012301d11761$a0e8c150$e2ba43f0$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 04:23:30 +0200 Message-ID: <014301d11770$f97a68a0$ec6f39e0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0144_01D11781.BD042300" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJHBNrRi0EVMHrukBFP6qTMZGANXwKc0CLLnYvw4CA= Content-Language: he Archived-At: Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Media security in draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 02:23:46 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0144_01D11781.BD042300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, =20 "In addition, the media MUST be secured. DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported = and SHOULD be used unless the media, which is based on RTP, is secured = by other means see [RFC7201] [RFC7202]." =20 The reason for this text about RFC7201 is because it is informational = RFC and provides examples and not all the options. =20 Roni =20 =20 From: Daniel Burnett [mailto:danielcburnett@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 3:24 AM To: Roni Even Cc: Duckworth, Mark; Paul Kyzivat; clue@ietf.org; Alissa Cooper Subject: Re: Media security in draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 =20 =20 =20 On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Roni Even = wrote: Hi, The current text in the document is: =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP = security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be = supported.=E2=80=9D =20 At the CLUE session in the chair presentation slide we suggested =20 =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP = security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported = and SHOULD be used. If media is protected by other means [RFC7201], then = DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used.=E2=80=9D =20 This text means that the RTP channel MUST be secure by some means but in = order to better clarify it I suggest that we change it to: =20 =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and MUST be secure. = Existing RTP security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST = be supported and SHOULD be used. DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used = when RTP media is secured by other means see [RFC7201] and = [RFC7202]=E2=80=9D =20 Why don't we just be more explicit? How about "In addition, the media MUST be secured. DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported = and SHOULD be used unless the media, which is based on RTP, is secured = by one of the other means documented in [RFC7201]." =20 Does this looks OK? =20 Thanks Roni =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0144_01D11781.BD042300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

"In addition, the media MUST be = secured.  DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOULD be used unless the = media, which is based on RTP, is secured by other means see [RFC7201] = [RFC7202]."

 

The reason for this text about RFC7201 is = because it is informational RFC and provides examples and not all the = options.

 

Roni

 

 

From:= = Daniel Burnett [mailto:danielcburnett@gmail.com]
Sent: = Thursday, November 05, 2015 3:24 AM
To: Roni = Even
Cc: Duckworth, Mark; Paul Kyzivat; clue@ietf.org; Alissa = Cooper
Subject: Re: Media security in = draft-ietf-clue-framework-23

 

 

 

On Wed, = Nov 4, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Roni Even <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com> = wrote:

Hi,

The current text in the document = is:

=E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP = and thus existing RTP security   mechanisms SHOULD be = supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be = supported.=E2=80=9D

 <= /o:p>

At the CLUE = session in the chair presentation slide we suggested

 <= /o:p>

=E2=80=9CIn = addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security = mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and = SHOULD be used. If media is protected by other means [RFC7201], then = DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used.=E2=80=9D

 <= /o:p>

This text = means that the RTP channel MUST be secure by some means but in order to = better clarify it I suggest that we change it to:

 <= /o:p>

=E2=80=9CIn = addition, the media is based on RTP and MUST be secure. Existing RTP = security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported = and SHOULD be used.  DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used when RTP = media is secured by other means  see [RFC7201] and = [RFC7202]=E2=80=9D

 

Why don't we just be more explicit?  = How about

"In addition, the media MUST be = secured.  DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOULD be used unless the = media, which is based on RTP, is secured by one of the other means = documented in [RFC7201]."

 <= /o:p>

Does this = looks OK?

 <= /o:p>

Thanks<= /o:p>

Roni

 

------=_NextPart_000_0144_01D11781.BD042300-- From nobody Thu Nov 5 15:50:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82F0E1B3D6C for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:50:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2dj5V5JeneYq for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:50:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ob0-x232.google.com (mail-ob0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 823DA1B3D73 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:50:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by obctp1 with SMTP id tp1so79757333obc.2 for ; Thu, 05 Nov 2015 15:50:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=5nGi2+Z82S5DBgCrbH44yo0dDlYH4CV0yc2Sb053qzU=; b=dj+fdfxO8Ndd1zk/nQpOaJNcR5amp7jRIJoG5aKBg78YmoN47szRZsQ3rR5+eV2oQT Br2RMFoUSy2Z6mnu9tuJdcnEsF5zD5xsghHH3FMwH8qEyN/3omPsquFf6R/M8mypjwoM B9w7TSGFLLiyE5rgqGBUk8mDj2TunhxsEg6twHcAYKx7ZPWzoNPGVjRNIkAgQPB+3A5p JcCJyzTUOpmkjDIUg7xVokJuzFbCmeCWGVKEH1XWk/2/lwiQ8t9urEzFl+03eKIDgTYI fNka3+6rjI5uwtsdOubZq4EGJFr7+UMZiHmQ7twqtA5it+BTVHFEkkzTSmVaABe598AI oTtg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.63.99 with SMTP id f3mr6929684oes.82.1446767410013; Thu, 05 Nov 2015 15:50:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.202.87.14 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:50:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <014301d11770$f97a68a0$ec6f39e0$@gmail.com> References: <012301d11761$a0e8c150$e2ba43f0$@gmail.com> <014301d11770$f97a68a0$ec6f39e0$@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 18:50:09 -0500 Message-ID: From: Daniel Burnett To: Roni Even Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2578a8beabd0523d3c9cf Archived-At: Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] Media security in draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 23:50:15 -0000 --001a11c2578a8beabd0523d3c9cf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 9:23 PM, Roni Even wrote: > Hi, > > > > "In addition, the media MUST be secured. DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and > SHOULD be used unless the media, which is based on RTP, is secured by oth= er > means see [RFC7201] [RFC7202]." > > > > The reason for this text about RFC7201 is because it is informational RFC > and provides examples and not all the options. > > I understand your concern. However, when we get the security review I expect that less strict text along the lines of "secured by other means such as those documented in [RFC7201]" will cause a DISCUSS because you have not spelled out the security properties you are trying to obtain. Is there a more specific pointer into 7201 or 7202 that you could use that indicates what security properties are intended when we say that the media MUST be secured? In other words, secured against what or whom? Is it good enough for me to just declare that my media is secure because I think it is= ? > > > Roni > > > > > > *From:* Daniel Burnett [mailto:danielcburnett@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, November 05, 2015 3:24 AM > *To:* Roni Even > *Cc:* Duckworth, Mark; Paul Kyzivat; clue@ietf.org; Alissa Cooper > *Subject:* Re: Media security in draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Roni Even wrote: > > Hi, > > The current text in the document is: > > =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP sec= urity > mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported.=E2=80=9D > > > > At the CLUE session in the chair presentation slide we suggested > > > > =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP sec= urity > mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOUL= D > be used. If media is protected by other means [RFC7201], then DTLS/SRTP > does not need to be used.=E2=80=9D > > > > This text means that the RTP channel MUST be secure by some means but in > order to better clarify it I suggest that we change it to: > > > > =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and MUST be secure. Exist= ing RTP > security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported > and SHOULD be used. DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used when RTP media is > secured by other means see [RFC7201] and [RFC7202]=E2=80=9D > > > > Why don't we just be more explicit? How about > > "In addition, the media MUST be secured. DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and > SHOULD be used unless the media, which is based on RTP, is secured by one > of the other means documented in [RFC7201]." > > > > Does this looks OK? > > > > Thanks > > Roni > > > --001a11c2578a8beabd0523d3c9cf Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 9:23 PM, Roni Even <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com= > wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

"In addition, the media MUST be secured.=C2=A0 = DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOULD be used unless the media, which is b= ased on RTP, is secured by other means see [RFC7201] [RFC7202]."

= =C2=A0

The = reason for this text about RFC7201 is because it is informational RFC and p= rovides examples and not all the options.

<= div>I understand your concern.=C2=A0 However, when we get the security revi= ew I expect that less strict text along the lines of "secured by other= means such as those documented in [RFC7201]" will cause a DISCUSS bec= ause you have not spelled out the security properties you are trying to obt= ain.=C2=A0 Is there a more specific pointer into 7201 or 7202 that you coul= d use that indicates what security properties are intended when we say that= the media MUST be secured?=C2=A0 In other words, secured against what or w= hom?=C2=A0 Is it good enough for me to just declare that my media is secure= because I think it is?
=C2=A0
<= div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US">

=C2=A0

Roni

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Daniel Burnett [mai= lto:danielcbu= rnett@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 3:24 AMTo: Roni Even
Cc: Duckworth, Mark; Paul Kyzivat; clue@ietf.org; Alissa Coope= r
Subject: Re: Media security in draft-ietf-clue-framework-23<= /u>

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

O= n Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Roni Even <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com> wrote:<= u>

Hi,<= /span>

= The current text in the document is:

=E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is bas= ed on RTP and thus existing RTP security=C2=A0=C2=A0 mechanisms SHOULD be s= upported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported.=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

At t= he CLUE session in the chair presentation slide we suggested<= /p>

=C2=A0

= =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP secur= ity mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHO= ULD be used. If media is protected by other means [RFC7201], then DTLS/SRTP= does not need to be used.=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

This text means that the RT= P channel MUST be secure by some means but in order to better clarify it I = suggest that we change it to:

=C2= =A0

=E2=80=9CIn addition, the media= is based on RTP and MUST be secure. Existing RTP security mechanisms SHOUL= D be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOULD be used.=C2=A0 D= TLS/SRTP does not need to be used when RTP media is secured by other means = =C2=A0see [RFC7201] and [RFC7202]=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

Why don't we just be more explic= it?=C2=A0 How about

"In addition, the media MUST be secured.=C2= =A0 DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOULD be used unless the media, which = is based on RTP, is secured by one of the other means documented in [RFC720= 1]."

=C2=A0

Does this looks OK?

= =C2=A0

Thanks

Roni<= /p>

=C2=A0


--001a11c2578a8beabd0523d3c9cf-- From nobody Thu Nov 5 16:15:13 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C8941A6F58 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:15:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UiBDjHKbybYk for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:15:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D28261A6F01 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C63D2039E for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 19:15:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontend1 ([10.202.2.160]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 05 Nov 2015 19:15:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h=cc :content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=mesmtp; bh=gtcW9 AQ87aIDgaZj32uc0MQZmSs=; b=MAdCe2KEMaDYr1PM0TfYm+YenVwEYA3ex48w9 lDrkt+8ZihUVfyiZDsm8G3EueNogNjLyA65//i8VPu9WNvJwADJ2aaGu3TYvuIti KbhVHX+uZlZoBz0HbgqKkBkHONju+GjfyRBGMnb12vyr64cnHIVro451MuG8Wvim /jVLFk= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc :x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=gtcW9AQ87aIDgaZj32uc0MQZmSs=; b=HtDnN H18T2XahB3TWkoVb8t+rd/8fteR1yEBVs+LGK74KsyzLi1iQzjoMDswr51K8+zpg A+q5oSH7+m3AUnPQ/pwhMp03/fqrbGxedotFxsIsIaKVdpgXXTIbaxS1IJhkb5KF j9FJoRNSAa5/1suu4hvpb27Y0/PKGw3P5IK3+4= X-Sasl-enc: CfiQ590HfYnrEojtP/G7nt1SfDQL9IUJq7F+rYodDLPF 1446768907 Received: from [10.24.51.227] (unknown [128.107.241.163]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id F21A3C016F0; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 19:15:05 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_212C2271-F824-4FFD-B544-145B7A2CEAF0" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <014301d11770$f97a68a0$ec6f39e0$@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 09:15:06 +0900 Message-Id: References: <012301d11761$a0e8c150$e2ba43f0$@gmail.com> <014301d11770$f97a68a0$ec6f39e0$@gmail.com> To: Roni Even X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clue] Media security in draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 00:15:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_212C2271-F824-4FFD-B544-145B7A2CEAF0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Nov 5, 2015, at 11:23 AM, Roni Even wrote: >=20 > Hi, > =20 >=20 > "In addition, the media MUST be secured. DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported = and SHOULD be used unless the media, which is based on RTP, is secured = by other means see [RFC7201] [RFC7202].=E2=80=9D >=20 WFM. I would put the last bit in parentheses =E2=80=94 (see = [RFC7201][RFC7202]). For avoidance of doubt, the additional change also needed in = draft-ietf-clue-signaling is in this sentence in Section 12: All CLUE- controlled RTP "m" lines must be secured and implemented using mechanisms such as SRTP [RFC3711 = ]; no specific security mechanisms are made mandatory to use due to the issues addressed in [RFC7202 = ]. s/must/MUST/ > =20 >=20 > The reason for this text about RFC7201 is because it is informational = RFC and provides examples and not all the options. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Roni >=20 > =20 > =20 > From: Daniel Burnett [mailto:danielcburnett@gmail.com = ]=20 > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 3:24 AM > To: Roni Even > Cc: Duckworth, Mark; Paul Kyzivat; clue@ietf.org = ; Alissa Cooper > Subject: Re: Media security in draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 > =20 > =20 > =20 > On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Roni Even > wrote: > Hi, > The current text in the document is: > =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP = security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be = supported.=E2=80=9D > =20 > At the CLUE session in the chair presentation slide we suggested > =20 > =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP = security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported = and SHOULD be used. If media is protected by other means [RFC7201], then = DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used.=E2=80=9D > =20 > This text means that the RTP channel MUST be secure by some means but = in order to better clarify it I suggest that we change it to: > =20 > =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and MUST be secure. = Existing RTP security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST = be supported and SHOULD be used. DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used = when RTP media is secured by other means see [RFC7201] and [RFC7202]=E2=80= =9D > =20 > Why don't we just be more explicit? How about >=20 > "In addition, the media MUST be secured. DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported = and SHOULD be used unless the media, which is based on RTP, is secured = by one of the other means documented in [RFC7201]." >=20 >> =20 >> Does this looks OK? >> =20 >> Thanks >> Roni --Apple-Mail=_212C2271-F824-4FFD-B544-145B7A2CEAF0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Nov 5, 2015, at 11:23 AM, Roni Even <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

 

"In addition, the media MUST be = secured.  DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOULD be used unless the = media, which is based on RTP, is secured by other means see [RFC7201] = [RFC7202].=E2=80=9D


WFM. I would put the last bit in parentheses =E2=80=94= (see [RFC7201][RFC7202]).

For = avoidance of doubt, the additional change also needed in = draft-ietf-clue-signaling is in this sentence in Section = 12:

All CLUE-
   controlled RTP "m" lines must be secured and implemented using
   mechanisms such as SRTP [RFC3711]; no specific security =
mechanisms
   are made mandatory to use due to the issues =
addressed in [RFC7202].

s/must/MUST/

 

The reason for this text about = RFC7201 is because it is informational RFC and provides examples and not = all the options.

 

Roni

 
 
From: Daniel Burnett [mailto:danielcburnett@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 = 3:24 AM
To: Roni Even
Cc: Duckworth, Mark; Paul = Kyzivat; clue@ietf.org; Alissa Cooper
Subject: Re: Media security in = draft-ietf-clue-framework-23
 
 
 
On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Roni Even = <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
The current text in the document is:
=E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP = and thus existing RTP security   mechanisms SHOULD be = supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported.=E2=80=9D
 
At the CLUE session in the chair presentation slide we = suggested
 
=E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and thus = existing RTP security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST = be supported and SHOULD be used. If media is protected by other means = [RFC7201], then DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used.=E2=80=9D
 
This text means that the RTP channel MUST be secure by some = means but in order to better clarify it I suggest that we change it = to:
 
=E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and MUST be = secure. Existing RTP security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and = DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOULD be used.  DTLS/SRTP does not = need to be used when RTP media is secured by other means  see = [RFC7201] and [RFC7202]=E2=80=9D
 

Why don't we = just be more explicit?  How about

"In addition, = the media MUST be secured.  DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOULD = be used unless the media, which is based on RTP, is secured by one of = the other means documented in [RFC7201]."

 
Does this looks OK?
 
Thanks
Roni

= --Apple-Mail=_212C2271-F824-4FFD-B544-145B7A2CEAF0-- From nobody Thu Nov 5 16:27:06 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FF5F1A6FC7 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:27:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9eBOMi1XPUIm for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:27:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ob0-x235.google.com (mail-ob0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA0191A6FBB for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:27:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by obbza9 with SMTP id za9so80722528obb.1 for ; Thu, 05 Nov 2015 16:27:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=WHPlvssz7o+Kt6vljyUcsSTr8SnJkOK/3DJg49dZpTI=; b=ogik2QUSO4YWO2g/oYDAE4JJNjpEdhOELmborYBYQffGdlVsTjJm7K4QUSrln6g56y jKw8qqWMmG6vfL9ZH4SgXIqAB2lktKJkrCDGluI3CznO28Avsn0Nt4Kdcx6Kw1TRVdaT OmfJgoif4qXv0vmEq1h6EFab7CD56k55GtMwbTMwmF2mVDhbaGOye+DibwIGpFxG6jM0 J3rz9ZswzCpuibF/uBvfgxug1MkJKGO2TmSWVpiX3YQKjwf7ng7WaLC4k3/AH/lhdDJg L/O9CJmruH34ryvPXxgSJ8xvxFaQ7NLVhMz8npRwgifx6nk0zij43LXaka7JisY9eNVS m8EA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.68.38 with SMTP id s6mr86922obt.32.1446769621145; Thu, 05 Nov 2015 16:27:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.202.87.14 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:27:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <012301d11761$a0e8c150$e2ba43f0$@gmail.com> <014301d11770$f97a68a0$ec6f39e0$@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 19:27:01 -0500 Message-ID: From: Daniel Burnett To: Alissa Cooper Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8fb2020a571f080523d44de4 Archived-At: Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] Media security in draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 00:27:04 -0000 --e89a8fb2020a571f080523d44de4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:15 PM, Alissa Cooper wrote: > > On Nov 5, 2015, at 11:23 AM, Roni Even wrote: > > Hi, > > > > "In addition, the media MUST be secured. DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and > SHOULD be used unless the media, which is based on RTP, is secured by oth= er > means see [RFC7201] [RFC7202].=E2=80=9D > > > WFM. I would put the last bit in parentheses =E2=80=94 (see [RFC7201][RFC= 7202]). > > For avoidance of doubt, the additional change also needed in > draft-ietf-clue-signaling is in this sentence in Section 12: > > All CLUE- > controlled RTP "m" lines must be secured and implemented using > mechanisms such as SRTP [RFC3711 = ]; no specific security mechanisms > > are made mandatory to use due to the issues addressed in [RFC7202 ]. > > > s/must/MUST/ > If Alissa thinks this will pass IESG review, I have no further objections. > > > The reason for this text about RFC7201 is because it is informational RFC > and provides examples and not all the options. > > > > Roni > > > *From:* Daniel Burnett [mailto:danielcburnett@gmail.com > ] > *Sent:* Thursday, November 05, 2015 3:24 AM > *To:* Roni Even > *Cc:* Duckworth, Mark; Paul Kyzivat; clue@ietf.org; Alissa Cooper > *Subject:* Re: Media security in draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 > > > > On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Roni Even wrote: > Hi, > The current text in the document is: > =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP sec= urity > mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported.=E2=80=9D > > At the CLUE session in the chair presentation slide we suggested > > =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP sec= urity > mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOUL= D > be used. If media is protected by other means [RFC7201], then DTLS/SRTP > does not need to be used.=E2=80=9D > > This text means that the RTP channel MUST be secure by some means but in > order to better clarify it I suggest that we change it to: > > =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and MUST be secure. Exist= ing RTP > security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported > and SHOULD be used. DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used when RTP media is > secured by other means see [RFC7201] and [RFC7202]=E2=80=9D > > > Why don't we just be more explicit? How about > > "In addition, the media MUST be secured. DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and > SHOULD be used unless the media, which is based on RTP, is secured by one > of the other means documented in [RFC7201]." > > > Does this looks OK? > > Thanks > Roni > > > --e89a8fb2020a571f080523d44de4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:15 PM, Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in&g= t; wrote:

On Nov= 5, 2015, at 11:23 AM, Roni Even <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,=

=C2=A0

"In addition, the media MUST be secured.= =C2=A0 DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOULD be used unless the media, whi= ch is based on RTP, is secured by other means see [RFC7201] [RFC7202].=E2= =80=9D


WFM. I would put the= last bit in parentheses =E2=80=94 (see [RFC7201][RFC7202]).

=
For avoidance of doubt, the additional change also needed in dra= ft-ietf-clue-signaling=C2=A0is in this sentence in Section 12:
=
All CLUE-
   controlled RTP "m" lines must be secured and implemented using
   mechanisms such as SRTP [RFC3711]; no specific =
security mechanisms
   are made mandatory to use due to the issues add=
ressed in [RFC7202].

s= /must/MUST/

I= f Alissa thinks this will pass IESG review, I have no further objections. <= br>

=C2=A0

The = reason for this text about RFC7201 is because it is informational RFC and p= rovides examples and not all the options.

=C2=A0

Roni

=C2=A0=
=C2=A0
From:=C2=A0Daniel Burnett [mailto:da= nielcburnett@gmail.com]=C2=A0
Sent:=C2=A0<= /span>Thursday, November 05, 2015 3:24 AM
To:=C2=A0R= oni Even
Cc:=C2=A0Duckworth, Mark; Paul Kyzivat;=C2=A0clue@ietf.org; Alissa CooperSubject:=C2=A0Re: Media security in draft-ietf-clue-fr= amework-23
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
On = Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Roni Even <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
The current text in the document is:
=E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and= thus existing RTP security=C2=A0=C2=A0 mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and= DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported.=E2=80=9D
=C2=A0
At the CLUE s= ession in the chair presentation slide we suggested
=C2=A0
=E2=80= =9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security me= chanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOULD be= used. If media is protected by other means [RFC7201], then DTLS/SRTP does = not need to be used.=E2=80=9D
=C2= =A0
This text means that the RTP = channel MUST be secure by some means but in order to better clarify it I su= ggest that we change it to:
=C2= =A0
=E2=80=9CIn addition, the med= ia is based on RTP and MUST be secure. Existing RTP security mechanisms SHO= ULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOULD be used.=C2=A0= DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used when RTP media is secured by other mean= s =C2=A0see [RFC7201] and [RFC7202]=E2=80=9D
=C2=A0

Why don't we just be more explicit?=C2=A0 = How about

= "In addition, the media MUST be secured.=C2=A0 DTLS/SRTP MUST be suppo= rted and SHOULD be used unless the media, which is based on RTP, is secured= by one of the other means documented in [RFC7201]."

=
= =C2=A0
Does this looks OK?=
=C2=A0
Thanks
Roni

=
--e89a8fb2020a571f080523d44de4-- From nobody Fri Nov 6 09:50:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 523B31B2C80 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 09:50:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aFLycetwH2V2 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 09:50:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07BF21B2C63 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 09:50:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=6281; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446832250; x=1448041850; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject:references: in-reply-to; bh=uNZZJPWgh2eMkUvk91jnMR/H7uu1HWrpgpXkh6dPcj0=; b=gN8VKwj+jckueptQ7sYCVOVLma9FYou2Tic4UBJURHtya58UXVlSl7OH Gc72I7rJq4hFk6TkCHCZitaCVC+03JJeKFbp/yW/MoK2pql4czhzxkQzf haWFX0HeCxUah1eDtSQcXO1IXPIuswfI73wpn6t3jIGa6a5P1LSL9+E4l E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0C1CgAf6DxW/xbLJq1dgm6BIG+rLgUBg?= =?us-ascii?q?Q2TVR2FcwKCBQEBAQEBAYELhDYBAQR4EQsYCRYIBwkDAgECAQ8lERMGAgEBiBU?= =?us-ascii?q?DEg28aQ2EMQEBAQEBBQEBAQEBAQEYBIYNhUWCU4JUhBIFlkiFHYYTgXWJHYtVh?= =?us-ascii?q?1JjhAQ+NAGFEwEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,253,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217";a="608001177" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Nov 2015 17:50:46 +0000 Received: from [10.47.200.89] ([10.47.200.89]) (authenticated bits=0) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA6Hokjl029267 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 17:50:46 GMT Message-ID: <563CE87B.3020501@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 17:50:51 +0000 From: Robert Hansen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clue@ietf.org References: <012301d11761$a0e8c150$e2ba43f0$@gmail.com> <014301d11770$f97a68a0$ec6f39e0$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030002030603050301030708" X-Authenticated-User: rohanse2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] Media security in draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 17:50:54 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030002030603050301030708 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 06/11/15 00:27, Daniel Burnett wrote: > > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:15 PM, Alissa Cooper > wrote: > > >> On Nov 5, 2015, at 11:23 AM, Roni Even > > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> "In addition, the media MUST be secured. DTLS/SRTP MUST be >> supported and SHOULD be used unless the media, which is based on >> RTP, is secured by other means see [RFC7201] [RFC7202].” >> > > WFM. I would put the last bit in parentheses — (see > [RFC7201][RFC7202]). > > For avoidance of doubt, the additional change also needed in > draft-ietf-clue-signaling is in this sentence in Section 12: > > All CLUE- > controlled RTP "m" lines must be secured and implemented using > mechanisms such as SRTP [RFC3711 ]; no specific security mechanisms > > are made mandatory to use due to the issues addressed in [RFC7202 ]. > > > s/must/MUST/ > > > If Alissa thinks this will pass IESG review, I have no further > objections. > Will ensure I change the signaling text accordingly in the next revision. Rob --------------030002030603050301030708 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 06/11/15 00:27, Daniel Burnett wrote:


On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:15 PM, Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:

On Nov 5, 2015, at 11:23 AM, Roni Even <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,

 

"In addition, the media MUST be secured.  DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOULD be used unless the media, which is based on RTP, is secured by other means see [RFC7201] [RFC7202].”


WFM. I would put the last bit in parentheses — (see [RFC7201][RFC7202]).

For avoidance of doubt, the additional change also needed in draft-ietf-clue-signaling is in this sentence in Section 12:

All CLUE-
   controlled RTP "m" lines must be secured and implemented using
   mechanisms such as SRTP [RFC3711]; no specific security mechanisms
   are made mandatory to use due to the issues addressed in [RFC7202].

s/must/MUST/

If Alissa thinks this will pass IESG review, I have no further objections.

Will ensure I change the signaling text accordingly in the next revision.

Rob
--------------030002030603050301030708-- From nobody Fri Nov 6 22:30:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietf.org Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 435161A1A4B; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 22:30:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.8.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151107063034.19843.37360.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 22:30:34 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: [clue] I-D Action: draft-ietf-clue-datachannel-11.txt X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2015 06:30:34 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the ControLling mUltiple streams for tElepresence Working Group of the IETF. Title : CLUE Protocol data channel Author : Christer Holmberg Filename : draft-ietf-clue-datachannel-11.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2015-11-06 Abstract: This document defines how to use the WebRTC data channel mechanism in order to realize a data channel, referred to as a CLUE data channel, for transporting CLUE protocol messages between two CLUE entities. The document defines how to describe the SCTPoDTLS association used to realize the CLUE data channel using the Session Description Protocol (SDP), and defines usage of SDP-based "SCTP over DTLS" data channel negotiation mechanism for establishing a CLUE data channel. Details and procedures associated with the CLUE protocol, and the SDP Offer/Answer procedures for negotiating usage of a CLUE data channel, are outside the scope of this document. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-clue-datachannel/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-clue-datachannel-11 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-clue-datachannel-11 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Nov 6 22:32:10 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F6DD1A1A75 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 22:32:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r0C8TOz5n2Sy for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 22:32:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 507721A1A72 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 22:32:06 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79626d000004282-11-563d9ae3c0ac Received: from ESESSHC012.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id CA.36.17026.3EA9D365; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 07:32:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.202]) by ESESSHC012.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.54]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 07:32:03 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: "clue@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [clue] I-D Action: draft-ietf-clue-datachannel-11.txt Thread-Index: AQHRGSXRmhRkPZbNoU2oE8+TN7nw856QGYAw Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 06:32:03 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BE13A4@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <20151107063034.19843.37360.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20151107063034.19843.37360.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.149] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpjkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGfG3VvfJLNswg7+vuS2mn/nLaLH/1GVm ByaPL09eMnksWfKTKYApissmJTUnsyy1SN8ugStj3dFVrAV7hCqOrXjA1sD4nK+LkZNDQsBE YuXJVawQtpjEhXvr2boYuTiEBI4wSixu/McM4SxmlLj8agqQw8HBJmAh0f1PG6RBREBZ4ujm fjYQm1lAW2Lh8ntsICXCAk4SB3awQ5Q4SyxfdAnKNpLY8203M4jNIqAi8f7aPLA4r4CvxMX7 hxlBbCEBR4mGFetZQMZwAo2ZMLEMJMwIdNr3U2uYIDaJS9x6Mp8J4mQBiSV7zjND2KISLx// g3pFSWLt4e0sEPU6Egt2f4K7ctnC18wQawUlTs58wjKBUWwWkrGzkLTMQtIyC0nLAkaWVYyi xanFxbnpRsZ6qUWZycXF+Xl6eaklmxiBsXNwy2/dHYyrXzseYhTgYFTi4d3wwyZMiDWxrLgy 9xCjBAezkgjvl1zbMCHelMTKqtSi/Pii0pzU4kOM0hwsSuK8LUwPQoUE0hNLUrNTUwtSi2Cy TBycUg2M6eI8OxIFledoi5czr2j5NfHUh309Hr4fbP82c2Zc46n52Rxl1n03Mi9tg5H7/PUK Shk88scniP+30LMNv6t7pWC94M54/uy29dJCymUmPXP2iLubbTpbw3nJ9P/dykTRZ3zs52al Wn48z7zmEivnSx37Hi9du/8cbZr3eHNTIv+u+3WI4ZsSS3FGoqEWc1FxIgBdQ421mQIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: [clue] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-clue-datachannel-11.txt X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2015 06:32:08 -0000 Hi, Based on the comments from Alissa regarding the Security Considerations, I = have submitted a new version (-11) of the CLUE data channel draft. It also contains a couple of reference version updates, but no other change= s. Regards, Christer -----Original Message----- From: clue [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf= .org Sent: 07 November 2015 08:31 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: [clue] I-D Action: draft-ietf-clue-datachannel-11.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the ControLling mUltiple streams for tElepres= ence Working Group of the IETF. Title : CLUE Protocol data channel Author : Christer Holmberg Filename : draft-ietf-clue-datachannel-11.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2015-11-06 Abstract: This document defines how to use the WebRTC data channel mechanism in order to realize a data channel, referred to as a CLUE data channel, for transporting CLUE protocol messages between two CLUE entities. The document defines how to describe the SCTPoDTLS association used to realize the CLUE data channel using the Session Description Protocol (SDP), and defines usage of SDP-based "SCTP over DTLS" data channel negotiation mechanism for establishing a CLUE data channel. Details and procedures associated with the CLUE protocol, and the SDP Offer/Answer procedures for negotiating usage of a CLUE data channel, are outside the scope of this document. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-clue-datachannel/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-clue-datachannel-11 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-clue-datachannel-11 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue From nobody Wed Nov 11 14:43:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AA121B3BAF for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:43:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qSr8xnjb6JN6 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:43:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDE3F1B3BAA for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:43:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 183A520AC5 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 17:43:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontend2 ([10.202.2.161]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 11 Nov 2015 17:43:53 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h=cc :content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=mesmtp; bh=t020g EeAIyIU/E6Mcl/wBPndJN8=; b=1hUjsV57gYDDoOGASkTv9qU5TUfkkn3IGw4aE C5jZS1TPJNfq1f6JUAqfPN6tQP5rdtGjAEQNYxg9QvxUicKn7IaF1k81pQ/oMeq0 KbWuqfpUuHRx9Z60fG93zSAFXjbZyJ1bNCGIif3dce8BcNIs441Xw3234y3nHA38 FGLpCc= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc :x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=t020gEeAIyIU/E6Mcl/wBPndJN8=; b=Gi/Fq YG4WOl9Z0N03AK1xw3Cb7TqClynRQSUTPTY2pfezGYbsFpE9GVTa2kT8waU65mLU 4y4lUUzsPye44RSM8JJ5ttOgaG/iNDJd60FPG2iwmO75isWvRLsznshTqywbDXyI Kc4TQBkUS6YJnGHXQpowd3OLHxUm+HgSFY6ojM= X-Sasl-enc: haR3+VZRCT+w4ihW09xsdAgjBj9bqPQrRbNjFyToEiTp 1447281832 Received: from dhcp-171-68-20-148.cisco.com (dhcp-171-68-20-148.cisco.com [171.68.20.148]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 25B8E6800F8; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 17:43:52 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_780D09F5-3640-47AA-808A-146BE2A2687F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:43:51 -0800 Message-Id: <54C47668-A228-49A0-A151-1AFF1DFD8F4C@cooperw.in> References: <012301d11761$a0e8c150$e2ba43f0$@gmail.com> <014301d11770$f97a68a0$ec6f39e0$@gmail.com> To: Daniel Burnett X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: "clue@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clue] Media security in draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 22:43:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_780D09F5-3640-47AA-808A-146BE2A2687F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I will initiate IETF LC when Mark posts the rev. Alissa > On Nov 5, 2015, at 4:27 PM, Daniel Burnett = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:15 PM, Alissa Cooper > wrote: >=20 >> On Nov 5, 2015, at 11:23 AM, Roni Even > wrote: >>=20 >> Hi, >> =20 >>=20 >> "In addition, the media MUST be secured. DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported = and SHOULD be used unless the media, which is based on RTP, is secured = by other means see [RFC7201] [RFC7202].=E2=80=9D >>=20 >=20 > WFM. I would put the last bit in parentheses =E2=80=94 (see = [RFC7201][RFC7202]). >=20 > For avoidance of doubt, the additional change also needed in = draft-ietf-clue-signaling is in this sentence in Section 12: >=20 > All CLUE- > controlled RTP "m" lines must be secured and implemented using > mechanisms such as SRTP [RFC3711 = ]; no specific security mechanisms > are made mandatory to use due to the issues addressed in [RFC7202 = ]. >=20 > s/must/MUST/ >=20 > If Alissa thinks this will pass IESG review, I have no further = objections.=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> The reason for this text about RFC7201 is because it is informational = RFC and provides examples and not all the options. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Roni >>=20 >> =20 >> =20 >> From: Daniel Burnett [mailto:danielcburnett@gmail.com = ]=20 >> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 3:24 AM >> To: Roni Even >> Cc: Duckworth, Mark; Paul Kyzivat; clue@ietf.org = ; Alissa Cooper >> Subject: Re: Media security in draft-ietf-clue-framework-23 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Roni Even > wrote: >> Hi, >> The current text in the document is: >> =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP = security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be = supported.=E2=80=9D >> =20 >> At the CLUE session in the chair presentation slide we suggested >> =20 >> =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP = security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported = and SHOULD be used. If media is protected by other means [RFC7201], then = DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used.=E2=80=9D >> =20 >> This text means that the RTP channel MUST be secure by some means but = in order to better clarify it I suggest that we change it to: >> =20 >> =E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and MUST be secure. = Existing RTP security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST = be supported and SHOULD be used. DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used = when RTP media is secured by other means see [RFC7201] and [RFC7202]=E2=80= =9D >> =20 >> Why don't we just be more explicit? How about >>=20 >> "In addition, the media MUST be secured. DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported = and SHOULD be used unless the media, which is based on RTP, is secured = by one of the other means documented in [RFC7201]." >>=20 >>> =20 >>> Does this looks OK? >>> =20 >>> Thanks >>> Roni >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_780D09F5-3640-47AA-808A-146BE2A2687F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
I will initiate IETF LC when Mark posts the = rev.

Alissa

On Nov 5, 2015, at 4:27 PM, = Daniel Burnett <danielcburnett@gmail.com> wrote:



On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:15 PM, Alissa Cooper = <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:

On Nov 5, 2015, at 11:23 AM, Roni Even <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

 

"In addition, the media MUST be secured.  DTLS/SRTP = MUST be supported and SHOULD be used unless the media, which is based on = RTP, is secured by other means see [RFC7201] = [RFC7202].=E2=80=9D


WFM. I would put the last bit in = parentheses =E2=80=94 (see [RFC7201][RFC7202]).

For avoidance of doubt, the additional = change also needed in draft-ietf-clue-signaling is in this sentence = in Section 12:

All CLUE-
   controlled RTP "m" lines must be secured and implemented using
   mechanisms such as SRTP [RFC3711]; =
no specific security mechanisms
=
   are made mandatory to use due to the issues addressed in [RFC7202].

s/must/MUST/

If Alissa thinks this = will pass IESG review, I have no further objections.

 

The reason for = this text about RFC7201 is because it is informational RFC and provides = examples and not all the options.

 

Roni

 
 
From: Daniel Burnett [mailto:danielcburnett@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 3:24 AM
To: Roni = Even
Cc: Duckworth, Mark; Paul Kyzivat; clue@ietf.org; Alissa Cooper
Subject: Re: Media security = in draft-ietf-clue-framework-23
 
 
 
On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Roni Even = <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
The current text in the document = is:
=E2=80=9CIn addition, the = media is based on RTP and thus existing RTP security   = mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and DTLS/SRTP MUST be = supported.=E2=80=9D
 
At= the CLUE session in the chair presentation slide we suggested
 
=E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP = and thus existing RTP security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and = DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOULD be used. If media is protected by = other means [RFC7201], then DTLS/SRTP does not need to be used.=E2=80=9D
 
This text means that the RTP channel MUST be = secure by some means but in order to better clarify it I suggest that we = change it to:
 
=E2=80=9CIn addition, the media is based on RTP and MUST be = secure. Existing RTP security mechanisms SHOULD be supported, and = DTLS/SRTP MUST be supported and SHOULD be used.  DTLS/SRTP does not = need to be used when RTP media is secured by other means  see = [RFC7201] and [RFC7202]=E2=80=9D
 

Why don't we = just be more explicit?  How about

"In addition, the media MUST be secured.  DTLS/SRTP = MUST be supported and SHOULD be used unless the media, which is based on = RTP, is secured by one of the other means documented in [RFC7201]."

 
Does this looks OK?
 
Thanks
Roni



= --Apple-Mail=_780D09F5-3640-47AA-808A-146BE2A2687F-- From nobody Thu Nov 12 07:40:13 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietf.org Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF6871AD05B; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:40:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.9.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151112154012.19453.73193.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:40:12 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: clue@ietf.org Subject: [clue] I-D Action: draft-ietf-clue-framework-24.txt X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:40:12 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the ControLling mUltiple streams for tElepresence Working Group of the IETF. Title : Framework for Telepresence Multi-Streams Authors : Mark Duckworth Andrew Pepperell Stephan Wenger Filename : draft-ietf-clue-framework-24.txt Pages : 84 Date : 2015-11-12 Abstract: This document defines a framework for a protocol to enable devices in a telepresence conference to interoperate. The protocol enables communication of information about multiple media streams so a sending system and receiving system can make reasonable decisions about transmitting, selecting and rendering the media streams. This protocol is used in addition to SIP signaling and SDP negotiation for setting up a telepresence session. 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Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Nov 12 07:43:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37E271AD0AA for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:43:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9mhvmnzeys7a for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:43:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.bemta12.messagelabs.com (mail1.bemta12.messagelabs.com [216.82.251.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client 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ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90E561B2B83; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:55:01 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.9.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Sender: Message-ID: <20151112175501.20755.71947.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:55:01 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: alcoop@cisco.com, clue-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-clue-framework@ietf.org, clue@ietf.org Subject: [clue] Last Call: (Framework for Telepresence Multi-Streams) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:55:01 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the ControLling mUltiple streams for tElepresence WG (clue) to consider the following document: - 'Framework for Telepresence Multi-Streams' as Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2015-11-26. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract This document defines a framework for a protocol to enable devices in a telepresence conference to interoperate. The protocol enables communication of information about multiple media streams so a sending system and receiving system can make reasonable decisions about transmitting, selecting and rendering the media streams. This protocol is used in addition to SIP signaling and SDP negotiation for setting up a telepresence session. The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-clue-framework/ IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-clue-framework/ballot/ The following IPR Declarations may be related to this I-D: https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2244/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2347/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2255/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2264/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2265/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2269/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2270/ From nobody Mon Nov 23 10:32:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E1711ACD4E for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 10:32:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.176 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.176 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PIDkX8hb3tTN for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 10:32:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from alum-mailsec-scanner-8.mit.edu (alum-mailsec-scanner-8.mit.edu [18.7.68.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3215B1ACD5A for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 10:32:48 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 12074414-f794f6d000007852-2b-56535bcfcfd2 Received: from outgoing-alum.mit.edu (OUTGOING-ALUM.MIT.EDU [18.7.68.33]) by alum-mailsec-scanner-8.mit.edu (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 33.D8.30802.FCB53565; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 13:32:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local (c-73-218-51-154.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [73.218.51.154]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as pkyzivat@ALUM.MIT.EDU) by outgoing-alum.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.12.4) with ESMTP id tANIWkR3023991 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 23 Nov 2015 13:32:47 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat To: "Robert Hansen (rohanse2)" , CLUE Message-ID: <56535BCD.5040803@alum.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 13:32:45 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrKIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUixO6iqHs+OjjM4PxBGYv9py4zW3z6/4Hd gcljyu+NrB5LlvxkCmCK4rZJSiwpC85Mz9O3S+DO+PT1KXvBb+6KO4+OsjYwTuHsYuTkkBAw kbj/9RwjhC0mceHeerYuRi4OIYHLjBK9W+azQjhPmSTu7Z/ADFLFJqAlMefQfxYQW1jATeJi +1QwW0TAU2Lt+0Y2EJtXQFti7pm9YPUsAqoS0349AKsRFUiTOHztAytEjaDEyZlPwOLMAmYS 8zY/ZIaw5SW2v53DPIGRdxaSsllIymYhKVvAyLyKUS4xpzRXNzcxM6c4NVm3ODkxLy+1SNdC LzezRC81pXQTIyTIRHYwHjkpd4hRgINRiYdXQz8oTIg1say4MvcQoyQHk5Iob2xEcJgQX1J+ SmVGYnFGfFFpTmrxIUYJDmYlEV4TY6Acb0piZVVqUT5MSpqDRUmc99tidT8hgfTEktTs1NSC 1CKYrAwHh5IE794ooEbBotT01Iq0zJwShDQTByfIcC4pkeLUvJTUosTSkox4UIzFFwOjDCTF A7SXKRpkb3FBYi5QFKL1FKOilDjvPpC5AiCJjNI8uLGw1PGKURzoS2FeW5AqHmDaget+BTSY CWjwkZJAkMEliQgpqQZG6fsz5DdGr+oukg/3/BT2Pc7+vStPJRN3xKbsIyyr/3UUp4lPyObY 6sAbPVFQtsT8Uc10vRitCQsfvJtS5CMcW9HDPJ9zZnxRpcwa+TN7S6PYQ+5yfthu75HDWaFb f+5b0C6d1D8M0Ve2113lNwoPOxN5fv4j99QV8xe4r3rmYu3uUpf274cSS3FGoqEWc1FxIgDx EOlU+AIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: [clue] registration of sip.clue media feature tag in signaling draft X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 18:32:54 -0000 I was doing a final review of the signaling draft. I notice that the registration of sip.clue in the IANA considerations section is a bit sloppy. This will be subjected to expert review, so it should be brought up to standard so that the expert is happy. Since I happen to be the expert, I can suggest what would make me happy. :-) This specification registers a new media feature tag in the SIP [RFC3264] tree per the procedures defined in [RFC2506] and [RFC3840]. Media feature tag name: sip.clue Summary of the media feature indicated by this tag: This feature tag indicates that the device supports CLUE controlled media. Values appropriate for use with this feature tag: Boolean. The feature tag is intended primarily for use in the following applications, protocols, services, or negotiation mechanisms: This feature tag is most useful in a communications application for describing the capabilities of a device which uses multiple media streams. Related standards or documents: RFC XXXX [this document] Security Considerations: Security considerations for this media feature tag are discussed in Section 12 of RFC XXXX. Name(s) & email address(es) of person(s) to contact for further information: - CLUE workgroup: clue@ietf.org - CLUE chairmen: clue-chairs@ietf.org Intended usage: COMMON (I suspect that the formatting is already better in the xml, but lost by xml2rfc.) Thanks, Paul From nobody Mon Nov 23 14:33:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 971A91ACE43 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:32:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.476 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.476 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V3DrxKSmI6ry for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:32:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 205EC1ACE42 for ; 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23 Nov 2015 22:32:57 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-019.cisco.com (xch-rcd-019.cisco.com [173.37.102.29]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tANMWvQO004749 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 23 Nov 2015 22:32:57 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-016.cisco.com (173.37.102.26) by XCH-RCD-019.cisco.com (173.37.102.29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 16:32:56 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-016.cisco.com ([173.37.102.26]) by XCH-RCD-016.cisco.com ([173.37.102.26]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 16:32:56 -0600 From: "Rob Hansen (rohanse2)" To: Paul Kyzivat , CLUE Thread-Topic: registration of sip.clue media feature tag in signaling draft Thread-Index: AQHRJh1cWBH09yRdXUeVwFQPpU779J6qMXjw Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 22:32:56 +0000 Message-ID: <24673fe7a92c44298a97286fe591bca7@XCH-RCD-016.cisco.com> References: <56535BCD.5040803@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <56535BCD.5040803@alum.mit.edu> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.85.202] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] registration of sip.clue media feature tag in signaling draft X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 22:32:59 -0000 VGhhbmtzIFBhdWwsIHRoYXQncyBncmVhdCwgd2lsbCBiZSBzdXJlIHRvIGluY29ycG9yYXRlIGl0 Lg0KDQpSb2INCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IFBhdWwgS3l6aXZh dCBbbWFpbHRvOnBreXppdmF0QGFsdW0ubWl0LmVkdV0gDQpTZW50OiAyMyBOb3ZlbWJlciAyMDE1 IDE4OjMzDQpUbzogUm9iIEhhbnNlbiAocm9oYW5zZTIpOyBDTFVFDQpTdWJqZWN0OiByZWdpc3Ry YXRpb24gb2Ygc2lwLmNsdWUgbWVkaWEgZmVhdHVyZSB0YWcgaW4gc2lnbmFsaW5nIGRyYWZ0DQoN Ckkgd2FzIGRvaW5nIGEgZmluYWwgcmV2aWV3IG9mIHRoZSBzaWduYWxpbmcgZHJhZnQuIEkgbm90 aWNlIHRoYXQgdGhlIHJlZ2lzdHJhdGlvbiBvZiBzaXAuY2x1ZSBpbiB0aGUgSUFOQSBjb25zaWRl cmF0aW9ucyBzZWN0aW9uIGlzIGEgYml0IHNsb3BweS4gVGhpcyB3aWxsIGJlIHN1YmplY3RlZCB0 byBleHBlcnQgcmV2aWV3LCBzbyBpdCBzaG91bGQgYmUgYnJvdWdodCB1cCB0byBzdGFuZGFyZCBz byB0aGF0IHRoZSBleHBlcnQgaXMgaGFwcHkuDQoNClNpbmNlIEkgaGFwcGVuIHRvIGJlIHRoZSBl eHBlcnQsIEkgY2FuIHN1Z2dlc3Qgd2hhdCB3b3VsZCBtYWtlIG1lIGhhcHB5LiA6LSkNCg0KICAg IFRoaXMgc3BlY2lmaWNhdGlvbiByZWdpc3RlcnMgYSBuZXcgbWVkaWEgZmVhdHVyZSB0YWcgaW4g dGhlIFNJUA0KICAgIFtSRkMzMjY0XSB0cmVlIHBlciB0aGUgcHJvY2VkdXJlcyBkZWZpbmVkIGlu IFtSRkMyNTA2XSBhbmQgW1JGQzM4NDBdLg0KDQogICAgTWVkaWEgZmVhdHVyZSB0YWcgbmFtZTog c2lwLmNsdWUNCg0KICAgIFN1bW1hcnkgb2YgdGhlIG1lZGlhIGZlYXR1cmUgaW5kaWNhdGVkIGJ5 IHRoaXMgdGFnOiBUaGlzIGZlYXR1cmUgdGFnDQogICAgaW5kaWNhdGVzIHRoYXQgdGhlIGRldmlj ZSBzdXBwb3J0cyBDTFVFIGNvbnRyb2xsZWQgbWVkaWEuDQoNCiAgICBWYWx1ZXMgYXBwcm9wcmlh dGUgZm9yIHVzZSB3aXRoIHRoaXMgZmVhdHVyZSB0YWc6IEJvb2xlYW4uDQoNCiAgICBUaGUgZmVh dHVyZSB0YWcgaXMgaW50ZW5kZWQgcHJpbWFyaWx5IGZvciB1c2UgaW4gdGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZw0K ICAgIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9ucywgcHJvdG9jb2xzLCBzZXJ2aWNlcywgb3IgbmVnb3RpYXRpb24gbWVj aGFuaXNtczoNCg0KICAgIFRoaXMgZmVhdHVyZSB0YWcgaXMgbW9zdCB1c2VmdWwgaW4gYSBjb21t dW5pY2F0aW9ucyBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbiBmb3INCiAgICBkZXNjcmliaW5nIHRoZSBjYXBhYmlsaXRp ZXMgb2YgYSBkZXZpY2Ugd2hpY2ggdXNlcyBtdWx0aXBsZSBtZWRpYQ0KICAgIHN0cmVhbXMuDQoN CiAgICBSZWxhdGVkIHN0YW5kYXJkcyBvciBkb2N1bWVudHM6IFJGQyBYWFhYIFt0aGlzIGRvY3Vt ZW50XQ0KDQogICAgU2VjdXJpdHkgQ29uc2lkZXJhdGlvbnM6IFNlY3VyaXR5IGNvbnNpZGVyYXRp b25zIGZvciB0aGlzIG1lZGlhDQogICAgZmVhdHVyZSB0YWcgYXJlIGRpc2N1c3NlZCBpbiBTZWN0 aW9uIDEyIG9mIFJGQyBYWFhYLg0KDQogICAgTmFtZShzKSAmIGVtYWlsIGFkZHJlc3MoZXMpIG9m IHBlcnNvbihzKSB0byBjb250YWN0IGZvcg0KICAgIGZ1cnRoZXIgaW5mb3JtYXRpb246DQoNCiAg ICAtIENMVUUgd29ya2dyb3VwOiBjbHVlQGlldGYub3JnDQogICAgLSBDTFVFIGNoYWlybWVuOiBj bHVlLWNoYWlyc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KDQogICAgSW50ZW5kZWQgdXNhZ2U6IENPTU1PTg0KDQooSSBz dXNwZWN0IHRoYXQgdGhlIGZvcm1hdHRpbmcgaXMgYWxyZWFkeSBiZXR0ZXIgaW4gdGhlIHhtbCwg YnV0IGxvc3QgYnkNCnhtbDJyZmMuKQ0KDQoJVGhhbmtzLA0KCVBhdWwNCg== From nobody Wed Nov 25 00:02:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F40921A01BA for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 00:02:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.876 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.876 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bjO0-bcgWKS9 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 00:02:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1ABC01A01A5 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 00:02:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 97A99C06D8930; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 08:02:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tAP81t2S004496 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 09:02:19 +0100 Received: from FR712WXCHMBA10.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.6.161]) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.112]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 09:02:12 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "Rob Hansen (rohanse2)" , Paul Kyzivat , CLUE Thread-Topic: [clue] registration of sip.clue media feature tag in signaling draft Thread-Index: AQHRJj7sVJKQ+XszbkCb34YUVtub456rZKtQ Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 08:02:12 +0000 Message-ID: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADE11304@FR712WXCHMBA10.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <56535BCD.5040803@alum.mit.edu> <24673fe7a92c44298a97286fe591bca7@XCH-RCD-016.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <24673fe7a92c44298a97286fe591bca7@XCH-RCD-016.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.39] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] registration of sip.clue media feature tag in signaling draft X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 08:02:25 -0000 Is the proposed text: This feature tag is most useful in a communications application for describing the capabilities of a device which uses multiple media streams. Describing something that is almost dynamic in nature rather than describin= g something more static in what the device supports. Ultimately it supports= multiple media streams rather than uses them, but surely more importantly = it supports the clue signaling protocol to describe those multiple media st= reams. Now I agree the precise definition should ultimately lie in the RFC rather = than the IANA registration, but the text proposed does seem a little mislea= ding. Regards Keith -----Original Message----- From: clue [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rob Hansen (rohanse2= ) Sent: 23 November 2015 22:33 To: Paul Kyzivat; CLUE Subject: Re: [clue] registration of sip.clue media feature tag in signaling= draft Thanks Paul, that's great, will be sure to incorporate it. Rob -----Original Message----- From: Paul Kyzivat [mailto:pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu]=20 Sent: 23 November 2015 18:33 To: Rob Hansen (rohanse2); CLUE Subject: registration of sip.clue media feature tag in signaling draft I was doing a final review of the signaling draft. I notice that the regist= ration of sip.clue in the IANA considerations section is a bit sloppy. This= will be subjected to expert review, so it should be brought up to standard= so that the expert is happy. Since I happen to be the expert, I can suggest what would make me happy. :-= ) This specification registers a new media feature tag in the SIP [RFC3264] tree per the procedures defined in [RFC2506] and [RFC3840]. Media feature tag name: sip.clue Summary of the media feature indicated by this tag: This feature tag indicates that the device supports CLUE controlled media. Values appropriate for use with this feature tag: Boolean. The feature tag is intended primarily for use in the following applications, protocols, services, or negotiation mechanisms: This feature tag is most useful in a communications application for describing the capabilities of a device which uses multiple media streams. Related standards or documents: RFC XXXX [this document] Security Considerations: Security considerations for this media feature tag are discussed in Section 12 of RFC XXXX. Name(s) & email address(es) of person(s) to contact for further information: - CLUE workgroup: clue@ietf.org - CLUE chairmen: clue-chairs@ietf.org Intended usage: COMMON (I suspect that the formatting is already better in the xml, but lost by xml2rfc.) Thanks, Paul _______________________________________________ clue mailing list clue@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue