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From: Simon Pietro Romano <spromano@unina.it>
In-Reply-To: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8322F4@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 20:17:08 +0200
Cc: "clue@ietf.org" <clue@ietf.org>, Roberta Presta <roberta.presta@unina.it>
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References: <a30828ea-1db8-fccd-9c2b-ddc0a1dcb08d@nostrum.com> <8D2EDAF8-014E-477A-AECD-79D944EA4503@unina.it> <ac30c041-b269-484f-023a-0e8723133a5c@nostrum.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8322F4@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com>
To: Roni Even <roni.even@huawei.com>, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
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Subject: Re: [clue] AD Review: draft-ietf-clue-protocol-13
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Hello Roni and Adam,


>>> BLOCKER: Section 5.1: The description of <supportedVersions>=20
>>> describes a scheme in which multiple supported versions can be=20
>>> listed; and, if the list is omitted, it implies that only the =
version=20
>>> described in <v> is supported. This text does not define (nor does=20=

>>> any other text that I can find) what <v> should be set to when=20
>>> <supportedVersions> is used. Intuitively, it seems that <v> should =
be=20
>>> set to the largest minor version of the smallest major version=20
>>> advertised in <supportedVersions>, but that (or whatever the correct=20=

>>> answer is) needs to be clearly spelled out.
>>>=20
>> [SPR] I believe we were giving for granted that =E2=80=9Cv=E2=80=9D =
should be, in such=20
>> case, the highest supported version (i.e., largest major and larger=20=

>> minor numbers). Now that you make me think around that, I would =
simply=20
>> say that the =E2=80=9Cv=E2=80=9D attribute MUST be set to one of the =
versions that the=20
>> entity in question supports, as per the <supportedVersions> list. I=20=

>> can, e.g., decide that I send an =E2=80=98options=E2=80=99 with =
=E2=80=9Cv=3D12.23=E2=80=9D if the=20
>> <supportedVersions> list is like in the following:
>>=20
>> <version>33.44</version>
>> <version>27.0</version>
>> <version>12.345</version>
>> <version>1.44</version>
>=20
> I think this formulation is a problem. I assume the intention behind =
the "v" field is that some implementation that receives a version number =
in the "v" field with a major number higher than it understands is =
supposed to close the connection, since it runs a risk of =
misinterpreting the contents of messages. So, in your example, if you =
sent "v=3D12.23" to my implementation that only spoke major version 1, I =
would reject it, even though you also support major version 1. That's =
why I was thinking it should contain the smallest major version being =
advertised.
>=20
> The minor version is obviously less useful in this context, since =
they're defined to be backwards and forwards compatible, but it's more =
useful to know the highest minor version supported than some random =
minor version, as it indicates the full feature set that is supported.=20=

> The reason it's less useful is that the value can be parsed out of the =
<version> list.
>=20
>=20
> [Roni] I think that even selecting the lower major for "v" does not =
solve the problem since in the example above the Channel Receiver may =
support any of the above versions and the channel initiator does not =
know which. I think recommending the higher version is also how RFC6120 =
specify it

Did we reach any consensus on this point, in the end? I=E2=80=99m asking =
since we=E2=80=99re working on the revised version of the document and =
this part seems to be still controversial.

Thanks,

Simon


From nobody Fri Apr  6 11:27:58 2018
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From: Simon Pietro Romano <spromano@unina.it>
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Cc: "clue@ietf.org" <clue@ietf.org>, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>, Roberta Presta <roberta.presta@unina.it>
To: "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [clue] Question about timers (retry and timeouts) in draft-ietf-clue-protocol
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Hello again Roni,


> Hi,
> An important issue that was made by Adam during his AD review has to =
do with timeout and retry thresholds, please provide feedback
> =20
> This is the comment:
> BLOCKER: General: There are several mentions of timeouts and retry =
thresholds in the text and its corresponding state machines; however, =
the document neither defines nor cites a document as defining what these =
timeout and retry values are. These need to be defined and described. If =
the timer and retry scheme allows the two ends of the connection to have =
different values for timeouts and number of retries, then there need to =
be additional error procedures that allow the MC and MP state machines =
to stay in sync (if the timer/retry values can be different, it's =
possible for one state machine to transition to "terminated," while the =
other is still active, and you need messaging to clean this up). The =
remainder of this comment is non-blocking: Related to this, the document =
frequently refers to retries as "expiring" (e.g., "retry expired" on the =
state diagrams). That doesn't really make sense unless "retry" is the =
name of a timer rather than a counter; I think you mean to say =
"exhausted" or something similar.
>=20
> =20
> My view as individual:
> =20
> The CLUE protocol is delivered using SCTP =E2=80=9CCLUE entities are =
required to use ordered SCTP message delivery, with full reliability=E2=80=
=9D so there is no problem with timeout for retry for the data channel =
(https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-clue-datachannel-14#section-3.3.2 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-clue-datachannel-14#section-3.3.2>=
 )
> =20
> So the retry and timeout are for the application level and not for the =
sctp transport.
> =20
> =46rom the discussion on the mailing list during the WGLC
> =20
> =E2=80=9CThe idea here is that the MC avoids entering a loop where the =
MP keeps on sending an erroneous ADV hence forcing the MC to respond =
with a NACK. If this situation iterates for a while (# of retries), the =
MC terminates the ongoing CLUE =E2=80=9Csession=E2=80=9D.=20
> I noticed that the discussion started even earlier and the conclusion =
was that retry and timeout are needed but we also need default values =
which were never listed
> My understanding is that when a receiver of a protocol message sends a =
negative ack as response he allows for reties of fixed message and will =
allow it n times or quit after x time if no new message arrives.
> I think that for retries any number is good but I think that 2 is OK =
since is the message sender cannot send a valid message we should =
abandon the call. As for timeout this can be a short one that will still =
allow for a round trip so my view that 1 second is enough
> Other thoughs?

There is indeed Adam=E2=80=99s answer to my answer, that I=E2=80=99m =
copy/pasting below for the benefit of the readers:

> In thinking through what this scheme should look like, it occurs to me =
that the CLUE messages are defined to be sent over a reliable transport =
(SCTP), which has its own retransmission timers and eventual timeouts. =
Implementing a retransmission scheme on top of a reliable transport -- =
especially one as aggressive as you suggest above -- will put more =
traffic on the network when congestion occurs rather than less.
>=20
> So, in the final analysis, I think the action here is to remove =
retransmission timers and retry counts altogether. If the underlying =
transport takes longer to detect a failure than is sensible for CLUE =
(and it likely does), then a supervisory timer that declares the session =
failed might make sense.


I would be personally inclined to take Adam=E2=80=99s suggestion and get =
rid of those timers and retry counts altogether. What is your feeling =
about that?

Thanks,

Simon


                     				            _\\|//_
                           				   ( O-O )
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    				Simon Pietro Romano
             				 Universita' di Napoli Federico =
II
                		     Computer Engineering Department=20
	             Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7683816
                                           e-mail: spromano@unina.it

		    <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento =C3=A8 =
l'alibi degli=20
		    idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. =
Magritte.
               			                     oooO
       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
					                 \ (            =
(   )
			                                  \_)          ) =
/
                                                                       =
(_/
> =20
> One side comment in section 6.2 there are two instances of =E2=80=9Cnumb=
er of timeouts=E2=80=9D ?
> =20
> =20
> =20
> Roni Even
> Clue co-chair
> _______________________________________________
> clue mailing list
> clue@ietf.org <mailto:clue@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">Hello again Roni,</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">=

</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: windowtext; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">Hi,</span></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;" =
class=3D"">An important issue that was made by Adam during his AD review =
has to do with timeout and retry thresholds, please provide feedback<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
windowtext;" class=3D"">This is the comment:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><p=
 style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">BLOCKER: General: =
There are several mentions of timeouts and retry thresholds in the text =
and its corresponding state machines; however, the document neither =
defines nor cites a document as defining what these timeout and retry =
values are. These need to be defined and described. If the timer and =
retry scheme allows the two ends of the connection to have different =
values for timeouts and number of retries, then there need to be =
additional error procedures that allow the MC and MP state machines to =
stay in sync (if the timer/retry values can be different, it's possible =
for one state machine to transition to "terminated," while the other is =
still active, and you need messaging to clean this up). The remainder of =
this comment is non-blocking: Related to this, the document frequently =
refers to retries as "expiring" (e.g., "retry expired" on the state =
diagrams). That doesn't really make sense unless "retry" is the name of =
a timer rather than a counter; I think you mean to say "exhausted" or =
something similar.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
windowtext;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;" class=3D"">My view as =
individual:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
windowtext;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;" class=3D"">The CLUE protocol is =
delivered using SCTP =E2=80=9C<span style=3D"" class=3D"">CLUE entities =
are required to use ordered SCTP message delivery, with full =
reliability=E2=80=9D so there is no problem with timeout for retry for =
the data channel (<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-clue-datachannel-14#section=
-3.3.2" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-clue-datachannel-14#sect=
ion-3.3.2</a><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
windowtext;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">So the retry and =
timeout are for the application level and not for the sctp =
transport.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
windowtext;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
windowtext;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">=46rom the =
discussion on the mailing list during the WGLC<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: windowtext; =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E2=80=9C</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 51, 51);" class=3D"">The idea here is that the MC avoids =
entering a loop where the MP keeps on sending an erroneous ADV hence =
forcing the MC to respond with a NACK. If this situation iterates for a =
while (# of retries), the MC terminates the ongoing CLUE =E2=80=9Csession=E2=
=80=9D. <o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
7.5pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: windowtext; =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" =
class=3D"">I noticed that the discussion started even earlier and the =
conclusion was that retry and timeout are needed but we also need =
default values which were never listed<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: windowtext; =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" =
class=3D"">My understanding is that when a receiver of a protocol =
message sends a negative ack as response he allows for reties of fixed =
message and will allow it n times or quit after x time if no new message =
arrives.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
7.5pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: windowtext; =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" =
class=3D"">I think that for retries any number is good but I think that =
2 is OK since is the message sender cannot send a valid message we =
should abandon the call. As for timeout this can be a short one that =
will still allow for a round trip so my view that 1 second is enough<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: windowtext; =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" =
class=3D"">Other thoughs?</span></pre></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>There is indeed Adam=E2=80=99s answer to my answer, =
that I=E2=80=99m copy/pasting below for the benefit of the =
readers:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">In thinking through what this scheme should =
look like, it occurs to me that the CLUE messages are defined to be sent =
over a reliable transport (SCTP), which has its own retransmission =
timers and eventual timeouts. Implementing a retransmission scheme on =
top of a reliable transport -- especially one as aggressive as you =
suggest above -- will put more traffic on the network when congestion =
occurs rather than less.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">So, in the final =
analysis, I think the action here is to remove retransmission timers and =
retry counts altogether. If the underlying transport takes longer to =
detect a failure than is sensible for CLUE (and it likely does), then a =
supervisory timer that declares the session failed might make =
sense.</blockquote><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div><div class=3D"">I would be personally =
inclined to take Adam=E2=80=99s suggestion and get rid of those timers =
and retry counts altogether. What is your feeling about that?</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Simon</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">				=
</span>&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; _\\|//_<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">				=
</span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;( O-O )<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: =
pre;">				</span>Simon Pietro&nbsp;Romano<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">				=
</span>&nbsp;Universita' di Napoli&nbsp;Federico II<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">		=
</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Computer Engineering&nbsp;Department&nbsp;<br =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">	=
</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Phone: +39 081 =
7683823 -- Fax: +39&nbsp;081 7683816<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;e-mail:&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:spromano@unina.it" =
class=3D"">spromano@unina.it</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">		=
</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;&lt;Molti mi dicono che lo&nbsp;scoraggiamento =
=C3=A8 l'alibi degli&nbsp;<br class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">		</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; idioti. Ci =
rifletto un istante; e mi&nbsp;scoraggio&gt;&gt;. Magritte.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">			=
</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;oooO<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( &nbsp; =
)~~~&nbsp;Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">				=
	</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;\ ( &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;( &nbsp; )<br =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">		=
	</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; \_) =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;) /<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(_/<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; color: windowtext; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: windowtext; =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: =
windowtext;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" class=3D"">One side =
comment in section 6.2 there are two instances of =E2=80=9C</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">number of timeouts</span><span style=3D"" class=3D"">=E2=80=9D =
?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
windowtext;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
windowtext;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;" =
class=3D"">Roni Even<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: windowtext;" class=3D"">Clue co-chair<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">clue mailing list</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:clue@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">clue@ietf.org</a><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
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font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue</a></div></blockquot=
e></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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From: "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>
To: Simon Pietro Romano <spromano@unina.it>
CC: "clue@ietf.org" <clue@ietf.org>, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>, "Roberta Presta" <roberta.presta@unina.it>
Thread-Topic: [clue] Question about timers (retry and timeouts) in draft-ietf-clue-protocol
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Subject: Re: [clue] Question about timers (retry and timeouts) in draft-ietf-clue-protocol
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From nobody Wed Apr 11 10:31:06 2018
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Subject: [clue] I-D Action: draft-ietf-clue-protocol-15.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the ControLling mUltiple streams for tElepresence WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Protocol for Controlling Multiple Streams for Telepresence (CLUE)
        Authors         : Roberta Presta
                          Simon Pietro Romano
	Filename        : draft-ietf-clue-protocol-15.txt
	Pages           : 60
	Date            : 2018-04-11

Abstract:
   The CLUE protocol is an application protocol conceived for the
   description and negotiation of a telepresence session.  The design of
   the CLUE protocol takes into account the requirements and the
   framework defined within the IETF CLUE working group.  A companion
   document delves into CLUE signaling details, as well as on the SIP/
   SDP session establishment phase.  CLUE messages flow over the CLUE
   data channel, based on reliable and ordered SCTP over DTLS transport.
   Message details, together with the behavior of CLUE Participants
   acting as Media Providers and/or Media Consumers, are herein
   discussed.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-clue-protocol/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-clue-protocol-15
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-clue-protocol-15

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-clue-protocol-15


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Wed Apr 11 10:32:21 2018
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From: Simon Pietro Romano <spromano@unina.it>
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To: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
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Hello Adam!

We finally managed to get our review done. Please find our answers =
in-line, [SPR]-prefixed, as usual.

                     				            _\\|//_
                           				   ( O-O )
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    				Simon Pietro Romano
             				 Universita' di Napoli Federico =
II
                		     Computer Engineering Department=20
	             Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7683816
                                           e-mail: spromano@unina.it

		    <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento =C3=A8 =
l'alibi degli=20
		    idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. =
Magritte.
               			                     oooO
       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
					                 \ (            =
(   )
			                                  \_)          ) =
/
                                                                       =
(_/



> Thanks for your thorough response! I've removed those issues that =
you've addressed, and included responses to the remaining issues below.
>=20
> IMPORTANT NOTE TO CLUE WORKING GROUP: There is a discussion regarding =
retransmission timers that you need to have. See the comments below for =
details.
>=20
>=20
> On 10/6/17 1:37 PM, Simon Pietro Romano wrote:
>>=20
>>> Title: The rule of thumb is that all but a small handful of =
well-known acronyms need to be expanded in titles and abstracts. I =
recognize that "CLUE" is a bit tortured, as acronyms go, but the title =
of this document is, broadly speaking, opaque. Please change it to =
something meaningful, such as "Protocol for Controlling Multiple Streams =
for Telepresence (CLUE)=E2=80=9D
>>>=20
>> [SPR] Done.
>=20
> I think this got missed. The header of the current version still =
reads:
>=20
> CLUE Working Group R. Presta
> Internet-Draft S. P. Romano
> Intended status: Standards Track University of Napoli
> Expires: April 9, 2018 October 6, 2017
>=20
>                              CLUE protocol
>                       draft-ietf-clue-protocol-14

[SPR] I hope we really fixed it now. Thanks for spotting this out.

>=20
>>=20
>>> General: There are three instances of excessively long lines in the =
document.
>>>=20
>> [SPR] ???
>=20
> The reformatting of XML in -14 has fixed this issue.

[SPR] Good to know.

>=20
>> BLOCKER: General: There are several mentions of timeouts and retry =
thresholds in the text and its corresponding state machines; however, =
the document neither defines nor cites a document as defining what these =
timeout and retry values are. These need to be defined and described. If =
the timer and retry scheme allows the two ends of the connection to have =
different values for timeouts and number of retries, then there need to =
be additional error procedures that allow the MC and MP state machines =
to stay in sync (if the timer/retry values can be different, it's =
possible for one state machine to transition to "terminated," while the =
other is still active, and you need messaging to clean this up).
>>=20
>> [SPR] Our idea was to rely on a single, fixed, application-level =
(i.e., CLUE-level) timeout value, rather than leveraging a number of =
them (T1, T2, T4, plus Timer A through Timer K) as in SIP. The value of =
the one and only timer would be the usual RTT estimate (~500ms). =
Differently from protocols like SIP, we are also leveraging retransmit =
counts to get out of a timeout-driven retransmission loop. We=E2=80=99re =
not adding such information to the revised version of the draft, because =
we=E2=80=99d first like to get your feedback on the approach. If you =
(and the rest of the group) believe this is a feasible approach, we can =
expand on that in a further version of the document.
>=20
> In thinking through what this scheme should look like, it occurs to me =
that the CLUE messages are defined to be sent over a reliable transport =
(SCTP), which has its own retransmission timers and eventual timeouts. =
Implementing a retransmission scheme on top of a reliable transport -- =
especially one as aggressive as you suggest above -- will put more =
traffic on the network when congestion occurs rather than less.
>=20
> So, in the final analysis, I think the action here is to remove =
retransmission timers and retry counts altogether. If the underlying =
transport takes longer to detect a failure than is sensible for CLUE =
(and it likely does), then a supervisory timer that declares the session =
failed might make sense.


[SPR] We took your advice and got rid of timers and retransmissions. =
You=E2=80=99ll find the updated state machines in the new version of the =
draft (-15).

>=20
>>=20
>>> Section 5: The XML definition allows zero or more <clueId> elements =
to appear in a message. If more than one is allowed, the document should =
explain how multiple IDs are handled. If they are not, then the schema =
and/or text needs to prohibit having more than one.
>>>=20
>> [SPR] Actually, the schema states:
>>=20
>> <xs:element name=3D"clueId" type=3D"xs:string" minOccurs=3D"0=E2=80=9D/=
>
>>=20
>> This should indicate that clueId can appear either 0 or 1 times in a =
valid XML document. The default value for maxOccurs is in fact 1. =
Don=E2=80=99t you agree on that?
>=20
> Ah, you're correct. I=E2=80=99m not used to seeing minOccurs without =
maxOccurs, but this is entirely fine as it's currently written.

[SPR] Good.

>=20
>>> BLOCKER: Section 5.1: The description of <supportedVersions> =
describes a scheme in which multiple supported versions can be listed; =
and, if the list is omitted, it implies that only the version described =
in <v> is supported. This text does not define (nor does any other text =
that I can find) what <v> should be set to when <supportedVersions> is =
used. Intuitively, it seems that <v> should be set to the largest minor =
version of the smallest major version advertised in <supportedVersions>, =
but that (or whatever the correct answer is) needs to be clearly spelled =
out.
>>>=20
>> [SPR] I believe we were giving for granted that =E2=80=9Cv=E2=80=9D =
should be, in such case, the highest supported version (i.e., largest =
major and larger minor numbers). Now that you make me think around that, =
I would simply say that the =E2=80=9Cv=E2=80=9D attribute MUST be set to =
one of the versions that the entity in question supports, as per the =
<supportedVersions> list. I can, e.g., decide that I send an =
=E2=80=98options=E2=80=99 with =E2=80=9Cv=3D12.23=E2=80=9D if the =
<supportedVersions> list is like in the following:
>>=20
>> <version>33.44</version>
>> <version>27.0</version>
>> <version>12.345</version>
>> <version>1.44</version>
>=20
> I think this formulation is a problem. I assume the intention behind =
the "v" field is that some implementation that receives a version number =
in the "v" field with a major number higher than it understands is =
supposed to close the connection, since it runs a risk of =
misinterpreting the contents of messages. So, in your example, if you =
sent "v=3D12.23" to my implementation that only spoke major version 1, I =
would reject it, even though you also support major version 1. That=E2=80=99=
s why I was thinking it should contain the smallest major version being =
advertised.

[SPR] You convinced us. The new version of the draft now =E2=80=9Creflects=
 your reflections=E2=80=9D. We even borrowed your own words in the =
descriptive part.

>=20
> The minor version is obviously less useful in this context, since =
they're defined to be backwards and forwards compatible, but it's more =
useful to know the highest minor version supported than some random =
minor version, as it indicates the full feature set that is supported. =
The reason it=E2=80=99s less useful is that the value can be parsed out =
of the <version> list.

[SPR] Agreed. And inserted into the document.

>=20
>>> BLOCKING: The state machines in section 6 and its subsections don't =
have transitions for all possible messages that could arrive in a state. =
This can cause interop issues. Please add text that clearly indicates =
whether such messages do or do not cause a transition. (This might be as =
simple as "messages not shown for a state do not cause the state to =
change," but only if you carefully check that this is true -- for =
example, what should an MP state machine do do if it gets a "CONF + ACK" =
in the state "WAIT FOR CONF"?)
>>>=20
>> [SPR] In the specific case you mention, I would expect that a 302 is =
generated (Invalid Parameter), since the incoming CONF should not =
contain the <ack> element. This said, I see your point related to the =
potential lack of some edges in the state machine graph. This point is =
obviously also related to the =E2=80=9Ctimeout=E2=80=9D issue you raised =
before. Different ways of managing timeouts will definitely have =
different impacts on the current state machines.
>> We will defer the modification of the diagrams in question to the =
next revision round. In the meanwhile, we=E2=80=99ll give a thought to =
potential further unexpected transactions to be taken into account.
>=20
> Based on my analysis above, I think the state machines will get a bit =
simpler, as they won=E2=80=99t have retransmission counts any longer.

[SPR] See my answer above.


>=20
>>=20
>>> Section 6.2 describes a state machine that starts in a state called =
"WAIT FOR ADV." This state does not appear to be timer-supervised, =
meaning that implementations of this state machine can stay in this =
state literally forever. Is that the intention?
>>>=20
>> [SPR] The idea would be to open a socket and start listening for =
incoming advertisements. Isn=E2=80=99t that OK?
>=20
> At some point, I think you're going to want to conclude that the CLUE =
data channel isn't going to get set up correctly, and signal that to the =
application in some way. This is probably on the order of a minute or =
so.

[SPR] We have not yet added this consideration to the draft. I =
personally believe this makes sense. Do you think we should add this as =
a general consideration when introducing the overall state machines?

>=20
>>> Section 8 indicates that extensions need to indicate "the standard =
version of the protocol the extension refers to." Given that there is =
compatibility within a major version of a protocol, I think this means =
to say "the major standard version of the protocol that the extension =
refers to.=E2=80=9D
>>>=20
>> [SPR] My extension might be associated with version 3.6 of the =
protocol. This means that it will need to be supported by all versions =
higher than that (3.7 onwards). Though, this does not entail that =
versions 3.5 and lower should understand it. Right?
>=20
> I'm a bit confused. Is the notion here that extensions, once =
introduced, always become a mandatory-to-implement part of the protocol? =
If that's the case, it's not clear why you would need to advertise them =
explicitly, since support would be implied by the version number itself. =
(This isn't unheard of: it's how NFS has historically handled version =
numbers, for example.) However, I didn't get the impression that CLUE =
protocol extensions were handled in such a way. If this is the =
intention, there needs to be a lot more text that makes this MTI aspect =
of extensions clear, and a reconsideration of why you=E2=80=99re =
signaling them individually rather than inferring them from the version =
number.

[SPR] You=E2=80=99re right. We were mixing things up. We now make a =
reference to the *major* standard version.

>=20
>>> Section 8 contains schema that contains a <version> element. It =
should be clarified that this is the *protocol* version, not the =
*extension* version (or, if it's the extension version, that needs to be =
spelled out too, but I think you'll need a new namespace for that...?)
>>>=20
>> [SPR] I thought this was clear from the third bullet point in the =
list:
>>=20
>> - the standard version of the protocol the extension refers to.
>>=20
>> Isn=E2=80=99t this enough? In such a case, what would you suggest to =
add?
>=20
> Ah, I see. It wasn't clear that these three bullets corresponded to =
the elements in the XML. Perhaps make this clearer with something like =
=E2=80=9CThe values of the fields of the <extension> element take the =
following values:" (and maybe move it closer to the actual XML).

[SPR] The paragraph in question has been properly reformatted and should =
now leave no space to misinterpretations.

>=20
>>=20
>>> The remainder of this comment is non-blocking: I also find the =
"SHOULD" in this section to be highly perplexing. Can you explain the =
rationale behind requiring schema, but not requiring any description of =
what the schema *means?)
>>>=20
>> [SPR] It is like coding without adding comments/documentation. =
Documentation is most welcome, but not mandatory. Don=E2=80=99t you =
agree?
>=20
> I don't. It seems more like committing a header file without the =
corresponding implementation file. Just because people know what things =
are called doesn't mean that they can handle them. For interop, you=E2=80=99=
re going to need some description of what the fields mean and how the =
messages are handled.

[SPR] Got it! SHOULD has been replaced with a MUST.


>=20
>>>=20
>>> The schema in section 9 contains:
>>>=20
>>> <xs:import namespace=3D"urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-info"
>>> schemaLocation=3D"data-model-schema-17.xsd"/>
>>>=20
>>> If you do not intend to bake this "-17" into the document (and I =
can't imagine you do), please add an RFC editor note to change it to =
something else upon publication.
>>>=20
>> [SPR] Done. I am not very familiar with RFC editor notes, indeed. =
Here is what we added at the beginning of section 9:
>>=20
>> "NOTE TO THE RFC-Editor: Please replace "data-model-schema-17.xsd" =
with the right schema location for the CLUE data model schema document =
(which is still to be defined at the time of this writing) in this =
section prior to publication as an RFC.=E2=80=9D
>>=20
>> Does this work for you?
>=20
> That's perfect. Thanks!

[SPR] Good.

>=20
>>> Section 10 in general: While it does consume a lot of space, I don't =
think that defining six rather different message types and then showing =
only *one* type in the examples is very illustrative of the protocol. I =
would *STRONGLY* suggest adding at least a response message, and ideally =
the example section should contain at least one example for each of the =
six message types.
>>>=20
>> [SPR] Will do in the (hopefully final) revision of the document. =
Let=E2=80=99s first double check that the proposed modifications are OK.
>=20
> Sounds good.


[SPR] We will keep this as an Action Point for us, to be fulfilled =
before submitting the very last version of the draft.

>=20
>>=20
>>> Section 12.1 has a strange double-double quote around the URN name, =
and section 12.3 repeats this for the MIME type.
>>>=20
>> [SPR] I don=E2=80=99t understand this. Can you please clarify?
>>=20
>=20
> Replace
>=20
>   ""urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-protocol"".
>=20
> with
>=20
>   "urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-protocol".
>=20
>=20
> And then replace
>=20
>   This section registers the ""application/clue+xml"" MIME type.
>=20
> with
>=20
>   This section registers the =E2=80=9Capplication/clue+xml=E2=80=9D =
MIME type.

[SPR] I think this is OK now.

Thanks!

Simon & Roberta

>=20
>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> /a
>=20



                     				            _\\|//_
                           				   ( O-O )
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    				Simon Pietro Romano
             				 Universita' di Napoli Federico =
II
                		     Computer Engineering Department=20
	             Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7683816
                                           e-mail: spromano@unina.it

		    <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento =C3=A8 =
l'alibi degli=20
		    idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. =
Magritte.
               			                     oooO
       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
					                 \ (            =
(   )
			                                  \_)          ) =
/
                                                                       =
(_/



--Apple-Mail=_966EC39E-DDBD-40A1-9CC2-9BA11DEF96DF
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hello Adam!<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">We finally managed to get our review done. Please find our =
answers in-line, [SPR]-prefixed, as usual.</div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">				=
</span><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; _\\|//_<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">		=
		</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;&nbsp;( O-O )<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: =
pre;">				</span>Simon Pietro&nbsp;Romano<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">				=
</span>&nbsp;Universita' di Napoli&nbsp;Federico II<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">		=
</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Computer Engineering&nbsp;Department&nbsp;<br =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">	=
</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Phone: +39 081 =
7683823 -- Fax: +39&nbsp;081 7683816<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;e-mail:&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:spromano@unina.it" =
class=3D"">spromano@unina.it</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">		=
</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;&lt;Molti mi dicono che lo&nbsp;scoraggiamento =
=C3=A8 l'alibi degli&nbsp;<br class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">		</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; idioti. Ci =
rifletto un istante; e mi&nbsp;scoraggio&gt;&gt;. Magritte.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">			=
</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;oooO<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( &nbsp; =
)~~~&nbsp;Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">				=
	</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;\ ( &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;( &nbsp; )<br =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">		=
	</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; \_) =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;) /<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(_/</div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
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-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>

<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Thanks for your thorough response! I've removed those issues =
that you've addressed, and included responses to the remaining issues =
below.</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">IMPORTANT =
NOTE TO CLUE WORKING GROUP: There is a discussion regarding =
retransmission timers that you need to have. See the comments below for =
details.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 10/6/17 1:37 PM, =
Simon Pietro Romano wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Title: =
The rule of thumb is that all but a small handful of well-known acronyms =
need to be expanded in titles and abstracts. I recognize that "CLUE" is =
a bit tortured, as acronyms go, but the title of this document is, =
broadly speaking, opaque. Please change it to something meaningful, such =
as "Protocol for Controlling Multiple Streams for Telepresence =
(CLUE)=E2=80=9D<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote>[SPR] Done.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">I think this got missed. The =
header of the current version still reads:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">CLUE Working Group R. Presta<br class=3D"">Internet-Draft S. =
P. Romano<br class=3D"">Intended status: Standards Track University of =
Napoli<br class=3D"">Expires: April 9, 2018 October 6, 2017<br =
class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CLUE protocol<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
draft-ietf-clue-protocol-14<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>[SPR] I =
hope we really fixed it now. Thanks for spotting this out.</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">General: There are three =
instances of excessively long lines in the document.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>[SPR] ???<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">The reformatting of XML in -14 has fixed this issue.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>[SPR] Good =
to know.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">BLOCKER: General: There are several mentions of =
timeouts and retry thresholds in the text and its corresponding state =
machines; however, the document neither defines nor cites a document as =
defining what these timeout and retry values are. These need to be =
defined and described. If the timer and retry scheme allows the two ends =
of the connection to have different values for timeouts and number of =
retries, then there need to be additional error procedures that allow =
the MC and MP state machines to stay in sync (if the timer/retry values =
can be different, it's possible for one state machine to transition to =
"terminated," while the other is still active, and you need messaging to =
clean this up).<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">[SPR] Our idea was to rely =
on a single, fixed, application-level (i.e., CLUE-level) timeout value, =
rather than leveraging a number of them (T1, T2, T4, plus Timer A =
through Timer K) as in SIP. The value of the one and only timer would be =
the usual RTT estimate (~500ms). Differently from protocols like SIP, we =
are also leveraging retransmit counts to get out of a timeout-driven =
retransmission loop. We=E2=80=99re not adding such information to the =
revised version of the draft, because we=E2=80=99d first like to get =
your feedback on the approach. If you (and the rest of the group) =
believe this is a feasible approach, we can expand on that in a further =
version of the document.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">In =
thinking through what this scheme should look like, it occurs to me that =
the CLUE messages are defined to be sent over a reliable transport =
(SCTP), which has its own retransmission timers and eventual timeouts. =
Implementing a retransmission scheme on top of a reliable transport -- =
especially one as aggressive as you suggest above -- will put more =
traffic on the network when congestion occurs rather than less.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">So, in the final analysis, I think the action =
here is to remove retransmission timers and retry counts altogether. If =
the underlying transport takes longer to detect a failure than is =
sensible for CLUE (and it likely does), then a supervisory timer that =
declares the session failed might make sense.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>[SPR] We took your advice and got rid of timers =
and retransmissions. You=E2=80=99ll find the updated state machines in =
the new version of the draft (-15).</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Section 5: The XML definition allows zero or =
more &lt;clueId&gt; elements to appear in a message. If more than one is =
allowed, the document should explain how multiple IDs are handled. If =
they are not, then the schema and/or text needs to prohibit having more =
than one.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote>[SPR] Actually, the =
schema states:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&lt;xs:element name=3D"clueId"=
 type=3D"xs:string" minOccurs=3D"0=E2=80=9D/&gt;<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">This should indicate that clueId can appear either 0 or 1 =
times in a valid XML document. The default value for maxOccurs is in =
fact 1. Don=E2=80=99t you agree on that?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">Ah, you're correct. I=E2=80=99m not used to seeing minOccurs =
without maxOccurs, but this is entirely fine as it's currently =
written.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>[SPR] Good.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">BLOCKER: Section 5.1: =
The description of &lt;supportedVersions&gt; describes a scheme in which =
multiple supported versions can be listed; and, if the list is omitted, =
it implies that only the version described in &lt;v&gt; is supported. =
This text does not define (nor does any other text that I can find) what =
&lt;v&gt; should be set to when &lt;supportedVersions&gt; is used. =
Intuitively, it seems that &lt;v&gt; should be set to the largest minor =
version of the smallest major version advertised in =
&lt;supportedVersions&gt;, but that (or whatever the correct answer is) =
needs to be clearly spelled out.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>[SPR] I believe we were giving for granted that =
=E2=80=9Cv=E2=80=9D should be, in such case, the highest supported =
version (i.e., largest major and larger minor numbers). Now that you =
make me think around that, I would simply say that the =E2=80=9Cv=E2=80=9D=
 attribute MUST be set to one of the versions that the entity in =
question supports, as per the &lt;supportedVersions&gt; list. I can, =
e.g., decide that I send an =E2=80=98options=E2=80=99 with =E2=80=9Cv=3D12=
.23=E2=80=9D if the &lt;supportedVersions&gt; list is like in the =
following:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&lt;version&gt;33.44&lt;/version&gt;<br =
class=3D"">&lt;version&gt;27.0&lt;/version&gt;<br =
class=3D"">&lt;version&gt;12.345&lt;/version&gt;<br =
class=3D"">&lt;version&gt;1.44&lt;/version&gt;<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">I think this formulation is a =
problem. I assume the intention behind the "v" field is that some =
implementation that receives a version number in the "v" field with a =
major number higher than it understands is supposed to close the =
connection, since it runs a risk of misinterpreting the contents of =
messages. So, in your example, if you sent "v=3D12.23" to my =
implementation that only spoke major version 1, I would reject it, even =
though you also support major version 1. That=E2=80=99s why I was =
thinking it should contain the smallest major version being =
advertised.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>[SPR] You convinced us. The new version of the draft =
now =E2=80=9Creflects your reflections=E2=80=9D. We even borrowed your =
own words in the descriptive part.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">The minor version is obviously less useful in this context, =
since they're defined to be backwards and forwards compatible, but it's =
more useful to know the highest minor version supported than some random =
minor version, as it indicates the full feature set that is supported. =
The reason it=E2=80=99s less useful is that the value can be parsed out =
of the &lt;version&gt; list.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>[SPR] =
Agreed. And inserted into the document.</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D"">BLOCKING: The state machines in section 6 and =
its subsections don't have transitions for all possible messages that =
could arrive in a state. This can cause interop issues. Please add text =
that clearly indicates whether such messages do or do not cause a =
transition. (This might be as simple as "messages not shown for a state =
do not cause the state to change," but only if you carefully check that =
this is true -- for example, what should an MP state machine do do if it =
gets a "CONF + ACK" in the state "WAIT FOR CONF"?)<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>[SPR] In the specific case you mention, I would =
expect that a 302 is generated (Invalid Parameter), since the incoming =
CONF should not contain the &lt;ack&gt; element. This said, I see your =
point related to the potential lack of some edges in the state machine =
graph. This point is obviously also related to the =E2=80=9Ctimeout=E2=80=9D=
 issue you raised before. Different ways of managing timeouts will =
definitely have different impacts on the current state machines.<br =
class=3D"">We will defer the modification of the diagrams in question to =
the next revision round. In the meanwhile, we=E2=80=99ll give a thought =
to potential further unexpected transactions to be taken into =
account.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Based on my analysis =
above, I think the state machines will get a bit simpler, as they =
won=E2=80=99t have retransmission counts any longer.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>[SPR] =
See my answer above.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Section 6.2 describes a =
state machine that starts in a state called "WAIT FOR ADV." This state =
does not appear to be timer-supervised, meaning that implementations of =
this state machine can stay in this state literally forever. Is that the =
intention?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote>[SPR] The idea =
would be to open a socket and start listening for incoming =
advertisements. Isn=E2=80=99t that OK?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">At some point, I think you're going to want to conclude that =
the CLUE data channel isn't going to get set up correctly, and signal =
that to the application in some way. This is probably on the order of a =
minute or so.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>[SPR] We have not yet added this consideration to =
the draft. I personally believe this makes sense. Do you think we should =
add this as a general consideration when introducing the overall state =
machines?</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Section 8 indicates that =
extensions need to indicate "the standard version of the protocol the =
extension refers to." Given that there is compatibility within a major =
version of a protocol, I think this means to say "the major standard =
version of the protocol that the extension refers to.=E2=80=9D<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote>[SPR] My extension might be =
associated with version 3.6 of the protocol. This means that it will =
need to be supported by all versions higher than that (3.7 onwards). =
Though, this does not entail that versions 3.5 and lower should =
understand it. Right?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">I'm a =
bit confused. Is the notion here that extensions, once introduced, =
always become a mandatory-to-implement part of the protocol? If that's =
the case, it's not clear why you would need to advertise them =
explicitly, since support would be implied by the version number itself. =
(This isn't unheard of: it's how NFS has historically handled version =
numbers, for example.) However, I didn't get the impression that CLUE =
protocol extensions were handled in such a way. If this is the =
intention, there needs to be a lot more text that makes this MTI aspect =
of extensions clear, and a reconsideration of why you=E2=80=99re =
signaling them individually rather than inferring them from the version =
number.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>[SPR] You=E2=80=99re right. We were mixing things up. =
We now make a reference to the *major* standard version.</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Section 8 contains schema that contains a =
&lt;version&gt; element. It should be clarified that this is the =
*protocol* version, not the *extension* version (or, if it's the =
extension version, that needs to be spelled out too, but I think you'll =
need a new namespace for that...?)<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>[SPR] I thought this was clear from the third =
bullet point in the list:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">-&nbsp;the =
standard version of the protocol the extension refers to.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Isn=E2=80=99t this enough? In such a case, =
what would you suggest to add?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">Ah, I see. It wasn't clear that these three bullets =
corresponded to the elements in the XML. Perhaps make this clearer with =
something like =E2=80=9CThe values of the fields of the =
&lt;extension&gt; element take the following values:" (and maybe move it =
closer to the actual XML).<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br=
 class=3D""></div>[SPR] The paragraph in question has been properly =
reformatted and should now leave no space to =
misinterpretations.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">The remainder of this comment is non-blocking: I also find =
the "SHOULD" in this section to be highly perplexing. Can you explain =
the rationale behind requiring schema, but not requiring any description =
of what the schema *means?)<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>[SPR] It is like coding without adding =
comments/documentation. Documentation is most welcome, but not =
mandatory. Don=E2=80=99t you agree?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">I don't. It seems more like committing a header file without =
the corresponding implementation file. Just because people know what =
things are called doesn't mean that they can handle them. For interop, =
you=E2=80=99re going to need some description of what the fields mean =
and how the messages are handled.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>[SPR] Got =
it! SHOULD has been replaced with a MUST.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">The schema in section 9 contains:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&lt;xs:import namespace=3D"urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-info"<br=
 class=3D"">schemaLocation=3D"data-model-schema-17.xsd"/&gt;<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">If you do not intend to bake this "-17" into =
the document (and I can't imagine you do), please add an RFC editor note =
to change it to something else upon publication.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>[SPR] Done. I am not very familiar with RFC =
editor notes, indeed. Here is what we added at the beginning of section =
9:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">"NOTE TO THE RFC-Editor: Please replace =
"data-model-schema-17.xsd" with the right schema location for the CLUE =
data model schema document (which is still to be defined at the time of =
this writing) in this section prior to publication as an RFC.=E2=80=9D<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Does this work for you?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">That's perfect. Thanks!<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>[SPR] =
Good.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Section 10 in general: =
While it does consume a lot of space, I don't think that defining six =
rather different message types and then showing only *one* type in the =
examples is very illustrative of the protocol. I would *STRONGLY* =
suggest adding at least a response message, and ideally the example =
section should contain at least one example for each of the six message =
types.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote>[SPR] Will do in the =
(hopefully final) revision of the document. Let=E2=80=99s first double =
check that the proposed modifications are OK.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Sounds good.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div>[SPR] We will keep this as an Action Point for us, to =
be fulfilled before submitting the very last version of the =
draft.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Section =
12.1 has a strange double-double quote around the URN name, and section =
12.3 repeats this for the MIME type.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>[SPR] I don=E2=80=99t understand this. Can you =
please clarify?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">Replace<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;""urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-protocol"".<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">with<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;"urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-protocol".<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">And then replace<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;This section registers the ""application/clue+xml"" MIME =
type.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">with<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;This section registers the =E2=80=9Capplication/clue+xml=E2=80=
=9D MIME type.</div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>[SPR] I =
think this is OK now.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Thanks!</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Simon =
&amp; Roberta</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Thanks!<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">/a<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><div><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">				=
</span>&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; _\\|//_<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">				=
</span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;( O-O )<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: =
pre;">				</span>Simon Pietro&nbsp;Romano<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">				=
</span>&nbsp;Universita' di Napoli&nbsp;Federico II<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">		=
</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Computer Engineering&nbsp;Department&nbsp;<br =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">	=
</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Phone: +39 081 =
7683823 -- Fax: +39&nbsp;081 7683816<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;e-mail:&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:spromano@unina.it" =
class=3D"">spromano@unina.it</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">		=
</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;&lt;Molti mi dicono che lo&nbsp;scoraggiamento =
=C3=A8 l'alibi degli&nbsp;<br class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">		</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; idioti. Ci =
rifletto un istante; e mi&nbsp;scoraggio&gt;&gt;. Magritte.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">			=
</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;oooO<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( &nbsp; =
)~~~&nbsp;Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">				=
	</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;\ ( &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;( &nbsp; )<br =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">		=
	</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; \_) =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;) /<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(_/</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_966EC39E-DDBD-40A1-9CC2-9BA11DEF96DF--

