From nobody Mon Aug 6 02:56:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietf.org Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 832E0127AC2; Mon, 6 Aug 2018 02:56:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: clue@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.83.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: clue@ietf.org Message-ID: <153354940148.26785.2924773987548539028@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2018 02:56:41 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [clue] I-D Action: draft-ietf-clue-protocol-16.txt X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2018 09:56:42 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the ControLling mUltiple streams for tElepresence WG of the IETF. Title : Protocol for Controlling Multiple Streams for Telepresence (CLUE) Authors : Roberta Presta Simon Pietro Romano Filename : draft-ietf-clue-protocol-16.txt Pages : 68 Date : 2018-08-06 Abstract: The CLUE protocol is an application protocol conceived for the description and negotiation of a telepresence session. The design of the CLUE protocol takes into account the requirements and the framework defined within the IETF CLUE working group. A companion document delves into CLUE signaling details, as well as on the SIP/ SDP session establishment phase. CLUE messages flow over the CLUE data channel, based on reliable and ordered SCTP over DTLS transport. Message details, together with the behavior of CLUE Participants acting as Media Providers and/or Media Consumers, are herein discussed. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-clue-protocol/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-clue-protocol-16 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-clue-protocol-16 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-clue-protocol-16 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Aug 6 03:09:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24F09130E7E for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2018 03:09:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x4koqt8R0XS8 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2018 03:09:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unina.it (fmvip.unina.it [IPv6:2001:760:3403:ffff::7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3639128CF3 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2018 03:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.unina.it (smtp2.unina.it [192.132.34.62]) by leas1.unina.it with ESMTP id w76A9MDH031130-w76A9MDJ031130 (version=TLSv1.0 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 6 Aug 2018 12:09:22 +0200 Received: from [143.225.28.167] ([143.225.28.167]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp2.unina.it (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w76A9KbN000889 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 6 Aug 2018 12:09:21 +0200 From: Simon Pietro Romano Message-Id: <8DAFF0AE-34FC-473E-B9F0-31DA32ED22BF@unina.it> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8F6420C3-1A17-4805-A3B7-0595F6647E23"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 12:09:20 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3fdd8d7e-fcc6-7bac-0d03-3873973a875d@nostrum.com> Cc: clue@ietf.org, Roberta Presta To: Adam Roach References: <8D2EDAF8-014E-477A-AECD-79D944EA4503@unina.it> <216405E3-5A89-4FF2-9C89-CEDA03BF6A04@unina.it> <3fdd8d7e-fcc6-7bac-0d03-3873973a875d@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] AD Review: draft-ietf-clue-protocol-13 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2018 10:09:35 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8F6420C3-1A17-4805-A3B7-0595F6647E23 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C8D82801-3B28-41FA-BD4A-129EA7D4ED8D" --Apple-Mail=_C8D82801-3B28-41FA-BD4A-129EA7D4ED8D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hello Adam! version -16 of the draft had just been posted. You=E2=80=99ll find there = a whole new section (section 10) about the requested call flow. We have = added validated excerpts of all of the messages. You=E2=80=99ll notice that we put the following note at the end of the = introductory part of section 10: [[NOTE TO IANA/RFC-EDITOR: For sections 10.1 through 10.9, please = replace the clue-protocol xsi:schemaLocation URL (which is currently set = to http://wpage.unina.it/spromano/clue-protocol-15-schema-file.xsd) with = the right (and final) URL for this specification. The URL ib question is = a temporary one, which was published on-line in order to allow for = proper validation of the XML excerpts contained in the call flow = sections.]] This was needed because we had to refer to the clue protocol schema file = in order to validate the messages. Please read below for a further (minor) issue we encountered=E2=80=A6 = **************************************************************************= ************************************************************** NOTE TO THE GROUP, DATA MODEL RELATED: While doing the call flow homework, we realized there=E2=80=99s a minor = modification that would be desirable inside the data model schema. = Namely, there is a =E2=80=9CsceneViewIDREF=E2=80=9D field that we = defined ad IDREF (In terms of XML datatypes). This seemed OK at that = time. Though, we now realized that it prevents correct validation of = CONFIGURE messages, An example of the mentioned issue can be found in = the (NOT currently valid) =E2=80=9CConf+Ack=E2=80=9D excerpt I am = attaching g below (where the culprit is in bold): CP2 22 11 200 AC0 ENC4 VC3 ENC1 SE1 In order to sort this issue out, it would be sufficient to modify the = above mentioned IDREF type and let it become a simpler xs:string. With = this modification, we might seamlessly reuse such a data model structure = inside CLUE Configure messages (and not just inside Advertisements when = describing MCC captures). Do you all agree on this proposal? = **************************************************************************= ************************************************************** Cheers, Simon _\\|//_ ( O-O ) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Simon Pietro Romano Universita' di Napoli Federico = II Computer Engineering Department Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7683816 e-mail: spromano@unina.it <>. = Magritte. oooO ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ \ ( = ( ) \_) ) = / = (_/ > Il giorno 18 mag 2018, alle ore 04:54, Adam Roach = ha scritto: >=20 > [re-sending due to an IETF mailing list server outage] >=20 > On 4/11/18 12:31 PM, Simon Pietro Romano wrote: >> Hello Adam! >>=20 >> We finally managed to get our review done. Please find our answers = in-line, [SPR]-prefixed, as usual. >>=20 > ... >=20 >> [SPR] We have not yet added this consideration to the draft. I = personally believe this makes sense. Do you think we should add this as = a general consideration when introducing the overall state machines? >=20 > That would probably be an improvement, yes. >=20 > ... >=20 >> [SPR] We will keep this as an Action Point for us, to be fulfilled = before submitting the very last version of the draft. >=20 >=20 > Just a heads up that I'm waiting for the document to incorporate these = two open items before progressing it. Thanks! >=20 > /a --Apple-Mail=_C8D82801-3B28-41FA-BD4A-129EA7D4ED8D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hello Adam!

version -16 of the draft had just been posted. = You=E2=80=99ll find there a whole new section (section 10) about the = requested call flow. We have added validated excerpts of all of the = messages.
You=E2=80=99ll notice that we put the following = note at the end of the introductory part of section 10:

[[NOTE TO IANA/RFC-EDITOR: For sections 10.1 through 10.9, = please replace the clue-protocol xsi:schemaLocation URL (which is = currently set to http://wpage.unina.it/spromano/clue-protocol-15-schema-file= .xsd) with the right (and final) URL for this specification. The URL ib = question is a temporary one, which was published on-line in order to = allow for proper validation of the XML excerpts contained in the = call flow sections.]]

This was needed = because we had to refer to the clue protocol schema file in order to = validate the messages.

Please read below for a further (minor) issue we = encountered=E2=80=A6

***************************************************************= *************************************************************************<= br class=3D"">
NOTE TO THE GROUP, DATA MODEL RELATED:

While doing the call flow homework, we = realized there=E2=80=99s a minor modification that would be desirable = inside the data model schema. Namely, there is a =E2=80=9CsceneViewIDREF=E2= =80=9D field that we defined ad IDREF (In terms of XML datatypes). = This seemed OK at that time. Though, we now realized that it = prevents correct validation of CONFIGURE messages, An example of the = mentioned issue can be found in the (NOT currently valid) =E2=80=9CConf+Ac= k=E2=80=9D excerpt I am attaching g below (where the culprit is in = bold):

<?xml version=3D"1.0" encoding=3D"UTF-8" stan= dalone=3D"yes"?>
<ns2:configure xmlns=3D"urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-inf= o"
 xmlns:ns2=3D"urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-protocol"<= br class=3D""> xmlns:ns3=3D"urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:vcard-4.0"  xmlns:xsi=3D"http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" 
 xsi:schemaLocation=3D"urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-protoco= l http://wpage.unina.it/spromano/clue-protocol-15-schema-file.xsd= "
 protocol=3D"CLUE" v=3D"2.7">
  =   <ns2:clueId>CP2</ns2:clueId>
  =   <ns2:sequenceNr>22</ns2:sequenceNr> 
  =   <ns2:advSequenceNr>11</ns2:advSequenceNr>
  =   <ns2:ack>200</ns2:ack> 
  =   <ns2:captureEncodings>
    =     <captureEncoding ID=3D"ce123">
          =  <captureID>AC0</captureID>
    =        <encodingID>ENC4</encodingID>
        </captureEncoding>
      =   <captureEncoding ID=3D"ce223">
 =         =  <captureID>VC3</captureID>
    =        <encodingID>ENC1</encodingID>
          =  <configuredContent>
      =         <sceneViewIDREF>SE1</sceneViewIDREF>
          =  </configuredContent>
      =  </captureEncoding>
  =   </ns2:captureEncodings>
</ns2:configure>

In order = to sort this issue out, it would be sufficient to modify the above = mentioned IDREF type and let it become a simpler xs:string. With this = modification, we might seamlessly reuse such a data model structure = inside CLUE Configure messages (and not just inside Advertisements when = describing MCC captures). Do you all agree on this proposal?

***************************************************************= *************************************************************************<= /div>

Cheers,

Simon




        =               =             _\\|//_
                =             =    ( O-O )
      = ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                =      Simon = Pietro Romano
            =   =  Universita' di Napoli Federico II
              =    =      Computer Engineering Department 
=              Phone: +39 081 = 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7683816
      =                     =                  e-mail: spromano@unina.it

    = <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento =C3=A8 l'alibi = degli 
    idioti. Ci = rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. Magritte.
                =                   =    oooO
      =  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   )~~~ = Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=                  \ ( =            (   )
=                   =                 \_)   =        ) /
        =                     =                     =                     =    (_/



Il giorno 18 mag 2018, = alle ore 04:54, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> ha scritto:

[re-sending due to an IETF mailing list server = outage]

On 4/11/18 12:31 PM, Simon Pietro = Romano wrote:
Hello Adam!

We finally = managed to get our review done. Please find our answers in-line, = [SPR]-prefixed, as usual.

...
[SPR] We have not yet added this consideration to = the draft. I personally believe this makes sense. Do you think = we should add this as a general consideration when introducing the = overall state machines?

That = would probably be an improvement, yes.

...
[SPR] We will keep this as an Action Point for us, to be = fulfilled before submitting the very last version of the draft.


Just a heads up = that I'm waiting for the document to incorporate these two open = items before progressing it. Thanks!

/a

= --Apple-Mail=_C8D82801-3B28-41FA-BD4A-129EA7D4ED8D-- --Apple-Mail=_8F6420C3-1A17-4805-A3B7-0595F6647E23 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEBPyteCAEtPtx8MMiwqEdBn5wGy0FAltoHlAACgkQwqEdBn5w Gy1uSRAArE3wgnor6X4jxbGCqweQUCXcMb51rOkmAJPdMeObTDmyYeaCwApVe+tn hRRAMJyTxNmz+NOshko+UvKjR4AsqrdJ6LRfv3YlqEcn7qCjQpg2cCwx8U1D38Tf UKNy0yGK6Xp+TT36NYdVnyODP7xDgvmulW+JFqu3I1EJdHKuH1TP0YUUl7Lek8sn SYDsgG1rdPKPDAIiHP7yLjHj5lFW4uzB66LmfZcvgfoZ+uKva/FR/uK4Iod6GYmq e0fqlffLYfaTAWG30MyOJZto8ilBeG/Z3NFMSEeVhdbA6CYy9hag9E+nm4v3HIE4 poQPNmiHONq1o6wH0WdwwZUauj0BwC9czmWt44TzFZYCwRoaCT+ZcNTap3h0EQoU g4DW3/yvH1jhMAkfDAuZf5877R+eglxpD6dTH16KkjG4d2y9OfNSuyJzeZs7b0Eo Vesu3GZIrSUwaZ0bVIT7VugVzh5zsDssHmuV0mtCVmMpXjq4l/W0VPXqHqqcVKmW bTwj+agT0+RxYywdOWwuleKvngX5SSr0gt1H3TG39ipEZYqh+wZNopTAxri5dWht AL1daHiMR0bGeqBm5PMvQRyb+pZynPybwszdcirt09XCvWFfY0PQmi1hPAcucS0A DVXfSCsd4+4B5fRJuYS9FwnRA8hlIIS9wY49j2avO3OoHCx+5H0= =P2yU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_8F6420C3-1A17-4805-A3B7-0595F6647E23-- From nobody Mon Aug 6 03:12:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20511130E7E for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2018 03:12:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pGlau8KMxnOy for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2018 03:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unina.it (fmvip.unina.it [IPv6:2001:760:3403:ffff::7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F564128CF3 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2018 03:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.unina.it (smtp1.unina.it [192.132.34.61]) by leas1.unina.it with ESMTP id w76ABw0M032642-w76ABw0O032642 (version=TLSv1.0 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 6 Aug 2018 12:11:58 +0200 Received: from [143.225.28.167] ([143.225.28.167]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp1.unina.it (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w76ABvei026399 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 6 Aug 2018 12:11:57 +0200 From: Simon Pietro Romano Message-Id: <1093BEBA-E585-4DB3-80D3-D3708777795F@unina.it> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_374976B1-37B1-4D6D-8158-A4C44ED7E0A8"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 12:11:57 +0200 In-Reply-To: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8728C9@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> Cc: CLUE , Roberta Presta To: "Roni Even (A)" References: <8D2EDAF8-014E-477A-AECD-79D944EA4503@unina.it> <216405E3-5A89-4FF2-9C89-CEDA03BF6A04@unina.it> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8728C9@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] AD Review: draft-ietf-clue-protocol-13 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2018 10:12:13 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_374976B1-37B1-4D6D-8158-A4C44ED7E0A8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3257654D-A2BD-4E3A-869B-9E08636FD40E" --Apple-Mail=_3257654D-A2BD-4E3A-869B-9E08636FD40E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hello Rony, > In section 6 in the 2 and 3 bullets you still have timeout. > I have understand what the objective is but maybe just say if after 1 = minute or just remove the timeout You=E2=80=99re right. We have added the =E2=80=9C1-minute or so=E2=80=9D = timeout consideration (suggested by Adam) to those bullet points. Thanks for spotting this out, Simon _\\|//_ ( O-O ) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Simon Pietro Romano Universita' di Napoli Federico = II Computer Engineering Department Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7683816 e-mail: spromano@unina.it <>. = Magritte. oooO ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ \ ( = ( ) \_) ) = / = (_/ > Il giorno 12 apr 2018, alle ore 07:54, Roni Even (A) = ha scritto: >=20 > Simon, > In section 6 in the 2 and 3 bullets you still have timeout. > I have understand what the objective is but maybe just say if after 1 = minute or just remove the timeout >=20 > Roni >=20 > From: clue [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Simon Pietro = Romano > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 8:32 PM > To: Adam Roach > Cc: clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] AD Review: draft-ietf-clue-protocol-13 >=20 > Hello Adam! >=20 > We finally managed to get our review done. Please find our answers = in-line, [SPR]-prefixed, as usual. >=20 > = _\\|//_ > = ( O-O ) > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > = Simon Pietro Romano > = Universita' di Napoli Federico II > Computer = Engineering Department > Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 = 7683816 > e-mail: spromano@unina.it = >=20 > < idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e = mi scoraggio>>. Magritte. > = oooO > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > = \ ( ( ) > = \_) ) / > = (_/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > Thanks for your thorough response! I've removed those issues that = you've addressed, and included responses to the remaining issues below. >=20 > IMPORTANT NOTE TO CLUE WORKING GROUP: There is a discussion regarding = retransmission timers that you need to have. See the comments below for = details. >=20 >=20 > On 10/6/17 1:37 PM, Simon Pietro Romano wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > Title: The rule of thumb is that all but a small handful of well-known = acronyms need to be expanded in titles and abstracts. I recognize that = "CLUE" is a bit tortured, as acronyms go, but the title of this document = is, broadly speaking, opaque. Please change it to something meaningful, = such as "Protocol for Controlling Multiple Streams for Telepresence = (CLUE)=E2=80=9D >=20 > [SPR] Done. >=20 > I think this got missed. The header of the current version still = reads: >=20 > CLUE Working Group R. Presta > Internet-Draft S. P. Romano > Intended status: Standards Track University of Napoli > Expires: April 9, 2018 October 6, 2017 >=20 > CLUE protocol > draft-ietf-clue-protocol-14 >=20 > [SPR] I hope we really fixed it now. Thanks for spotting this out. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > General: There are three instances of excessively long lines in the = document. >=20 > [SPR] ??? >=20 > The reformatting of XML in -14 has fixed this issue. >=20 > [SPR] Good to know. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > BLOCKER: General: There are several mentions of timeouts and retry = thresholds in the text and its corresponding state machines; however, = the document neither defines nor cites a document as defining what these = timeout and retry values are. These need to be defined and described. If = the timer and retry scheme allows the two ends of the connection to have = different values for timeouts and number of retries, then there need to = be additional error procedures that allow the MC and MP state machines = to stay in sync (if the timer/retry values can be different, it's = possible for one state machine to transition to "terminated," while the = other is still active, and you need messaging to clean this up). >=20 > [SPR] Our idea was to rely on a single, fixed, application-level = (i.e., CLUE-level) timeout value, rather than leveraging a number of = them (T1, T2, T4, plus Timer A through Timer K) as in SIP. The value of = the one and only timer would be the usual RTT estimate (~500ms). = Differently from protocols like SIP, we are also leveraging retransmit = counts to get out of a timeout-driven retransmission loop. We=E2=80=99re = not adding such information to the revised version of the draft, because = we=E2=80=99d first like to get your feedback on the approach. If you = (and the rest of the group) believe this is a feasible approach, we can = expand on that in a further version of the document. >=20 > In thinking through what this scheme should look like, it occurs to me = that the CLUE messages are defined to be sent over a reliable transport = (SCTP), which has its own retransmission timers and eventual timeouts. = Implementing a retransmission scheme on top of a reliable transport -- = especially one as aggressive as you suggest above -- will put more = traffic on the network when congestion occurs rather than less. >=20 > So, in the final analysis, I think the action here is to remove = retransmission timers and retry counts altogether. If the underlying = transport takes longer to detect a failure than is sensible for CLUE = (and it likely does), then a supervisory timer that declares the session = failed might make sense. >=20 >=20 > [SPR] We took your advice and got rid of timers and retransmissions. = You=E2=80=99ll find the updated state machines in the new version of the = draft (-15). >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Section 5: The XML definition allows zero or more elements to = appear in a message. If more than one is allowed, the document should = explain how multiple IDs are handled. If they are not, then the schema = and/or text needs to prohibit having more than one. >=20 > [SPR] Actually, the schema states: >=20 > = >=20 > This should indicate that clueId can appear either 0 or 1 times in a = valid XML document. The default value for maxOccurs is in fact 1. = Don=E2=80=99t you agree on that? >=20 > Ah, you're correct. I=E2=80=99m not used to seeing minOccurs without = maxOccurs, but this is entirely fine as it's currently written. >=20 > [SPR] Good. >=20 >=20 >=20 > BLOCKER: Section 5.1: The description of describes = a scheme in which multiple supported versions can be listed; and, if the = list is omitted, it implies that only the version described in is = supported. This text does not define (nor does any other text that I can = find) what should be set to when is used. = Intuitively, it seems that should be set to the largest minor = version of the smallest major version advertised in , = but that (or whatever the correct answer is) needs to be clearly spelled = out. >=20 > [SPR] I believe we were giving for granted that =E2=80=9Cv=E2=80=9D = should be, in such case, the highest supported version (i.e., largest = major and larger minor numbers). Now that you make me think around that, = I would simply say that the =E2=80=9Cv=E2=80=9D attribute MUST be set to = one of the versions that the entity in question supports, as per the = list. I can, e.g., decide that I send an = =E2=80=98options=E2=80=99 with =E2=80=9Cv=3D12..23=E2=80=9D if the = list is like in the following: >=20 > 33.44 > 27.0 > 12.345 > 1.44 >=20 > I think this formulation is a problem. I assume the intention behind = the "v" field is that some implementation that receives a version number = in the "v" field with a major number higher than it understands is = supposed to close the connection, since it runs a risk of = misinterpreting the contents of messages. So, in your example, if you = sent "v=3D12.23" to my implementation that only spoke major version 1, I = would reject it, even though you also support major version 1. That=E2=80=99= s why I was thinking it should contain the smallest major version being = advertised. >=20 > [SPR] You convinced us. The new version of the draft now =E2=80=9Creflec= ts your reflections=E2=80=9D. We even borrowed your own words in the = descriptive part. >=20 >=20 >=20 > The minor version is obviously less useful in this context, since = they're defined to be backwards and forwards compatible, but it's more = useful to know the highest minor version supported than some random = minor version, as it indicates the full feature set that is supported. = The reason it=E2=80=99s less useful is that the value can be parsed out = of the list. >=20 > [SPR] Agreed. And inserted into the document. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > BLOCKING: The state machines in section 6 and its subsections don't = have transitions for all possible messages that could arrive in a state. = This can cause interop issues. Please add text that clearly indicates = whether such messages do or do not cause a transition. (This might be as = simple as "messages not shown for a state do not cause the state to = change," but only if you carefully check that this is true -- for = example, what should an MP state machine do do if it gets a "CONF + ACK" = in the state "WAIT FOR CONF"?) >=20 > [SPR] In the specific case you mention, I would expect that a 302 is = generated (Invalid Parameter), since the incoming CONF should not = contain the element. This said, I see your point related to the = potential lack of some edges in the state machine graph. This point is = obviously also related to the =E2=80=9Ctimeout=E2=80=9D issue you raised = before. Different ways of managing timeouts will definitely have = different impacts on the current state machines. > We will defer the modification of the diagrams in question to the next = revision round. In the meanwhile, we=E2=80=99ll give a thought to = potential further unexpected transactions to be taken into account. >=20 > Based on my analysis above, I think the state machines will get a bit = simpler, as they won=E2=80=99t have retransmission counts any longer. >=20 > [SPR] See my answer above. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Section 6.2 describes a state machine that starts in a state called = "WAIT FOR ADV." This state does not appear to be timer-supervised, = meaning that implementations of this state machine can stay in this = state literally forever. Is that the intention? >=20 > [SPR] The idea would be to open a socket and start listening for = incoming advertisements. Isn=E2=80=99t that OK? >=20 > At some point, I think you're going to want to conclude that the CLUE = data channel isn't going to get set up correctly, and signal that to the = application in some way. This is probably on the order of a minute or = so. >=20 > [SPR] We have not yet added this consideration to the draft. I = personally believe this makes sense. Do you think we should add this as = a general consideration when introducing the overall state machines? >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Section 8 indicates that extensions need to indicate "the standard = version of the protocol the extension refers to." Given that there is = compatibility within a major version of a protocol, I think this means = to say "the major standard version of the protocol that the extension = refers to.=E2=80=9D >=20 > [SPR] My extension might be associated with version 3.6 of the = protocol. This means that it will need to be supported by all versions = higher than that (3.7 onwards). Though, this does not entail that = versions 3.5 and lower should understand it. Right? >=20 > I'm a bit confused. Is the notion here that extensions, once = introduced, always become a mandatory-to-implement part of the protocol? = If that's the case, it's not clear why you would need to advertise them = explicitly, since support would be implied by the version number itself. = (This isn't unheard of: it's how NFS has historically handled version = numbers, for example.) However, I didn't get the impression that CLUE = protocol extensions were handled in such a way. If this is the = intention, there needs to be a lot more text that makes this MTI aspect = of extensions clear, and a reconsideration of why you=E2=80=99re = signaling them individually rather than inferring them from the version = number. >=20 > [SPR] You=E2=80=99re right. We were mixing things up. We now make a = reference to the *major* standard version. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Section 8 contains schema that contains a element. It should = be clarified that this is the *protocol* version, not the *extension* = version (or, if it's the extension version, that needs to be spelled out = too, but I think you'll need a new namespace for that...?) >=20 > [SPR] I thought this was clear from the third bullet point in the = list: >=20 > - the standard version of the protocol the extension refers to. >=20 > Isn=E2=80=99t this enough? In such a case, what would you suggest to = add? >=20 > Ah, I see. It wasn't clear that these three bullets corresponded to = the elements in the XML. Perhaps make this clearer with something like = =E2=80=9CThe values of the fields of the element take the = following values:" (and maybe move it closer to the actual XML). >=20 > [SPR] The paragraph in question has been properly reformatted and = should now leave no space to misinterpretations. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > The remainder of this comment is non-blocking: I also find the = "SHOULD" in this section to be highly perplexing. Can you explain the = rationale behind requiring schema, but not requiring any description of = what the schema *means?) >=20 > [SPR] It is like coding without adding comments/documentation. = Documentation is most welcome, but not mandatory. Don=E2=80=99t you = agree? >=20 > I don't. It seems more like committing a header file without the = corresponding implementation file. Just because people know what things = are called doesn't mean that they can handle them. For interop, you=E2=80=99= re going to need some description of what the fields mean and how the = messages are handled. >=20 > [SPR] Got it! SHOULD has been replaced with a MUST. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > The schema in section 9 contains: >=20 > schemaLocation=3D"data-model-schema-17.xsd"/> >=20 > If you do not intend to bake this "-17" into the document (and I can't = imagine you do), please add an RFC editor note to change it to something = else upon publication. >=20 > [SPR] Done. I am not very familiar with RFC editor notes, indeed. Here = is what we added at the beginning of section 9: >=20 > "NOTE TO THE RFC-Editor: Please replace "data-model-schema-17.xsd" = with the right schema location for the CLUE data model schema document = (which is still to be defined at the time of this writing) in this = section prior to publication as an RFC.=E2=80=9D >=20 > Does this work for you? >=20 > That's perfect. Thanks! >=20 > [SPR] Good. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Section 10 in general: While it does consume a lot of space, I don't = think that defining six rather different message types and then showing = only *one* type in the examples is very illustrative of the protocol. I = would *STRONGLY* suggest adding at least a response message, and ideally = the example section should contain at least one example for each of the = six message types. >=20 > [SPR] Will do in the (hopefully final) revision of the document. = Let=E2=80=99s first double check that the proposed modifications are OK. >=20 > Sounds good. >=20 >=20 > [SPR] We will keep this as an Action Point for us, to be fulfilled = before submitting the very last version of the draft. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Section 12.1 has a strange double-double quote around the URN name, = and section 12.3 repeats this for the MIME type. >=20 > [SPR] I don=E2=80=99t understand this. Can you please clarify? >=20 >=20 > Replace >=20 > ""urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-protocol"". >=20 > with >=20 > "urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-protocol". >=20 >=20 > And then replace >=20 > This section registers the ""application/clue+xml"" MIME type. >=20 > with >=20 > This section registers the =E2=80=9Capplication/clue+xml=E2=80=9D = MIME type. >=20 > [SPR] I think this is OK now. >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Simon & Roberta >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > /a >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > = _\\|//_ > = ( O-O ) > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Simon = Pietro Romano > = Universita' di Napoli Federico II > Computer Engineering = Department > Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 = 7683816 > e-mail: spromano@unina.it = >=20 > < idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi = scoraggio>>. Magritte. > = oooO > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > = \ ( ( ) > = \_) ) / > = (_/ --Apple-Mail=_3257654D-A2BD-4E3A-869B-9E08636FD40E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hello Rony,

In section 6 = in the 2 and 3 bullets you still have timeout.
I have understand what the objective is but = maybe just say if after 1 minute or just remove the timeout


You=E2=80=99re right. We have added the = =E2=80=9C1-minute or so=E2=80=9D timeout consideration (suggested by = Adam) to those bullet points.

Thanks for spotting this out,

Simon

      =                 =      =        _\\|//_
      =                     =   =    ( O-O )
      = ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                =      Simon Pietro Romano
              =  Universita' di Napoli Federico II
  =                =      Computer Engineering Department 
=              Phone: +39 081 = 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7683816
      =                     =                 =  e-mail: spromano@unina.it

=     <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento = =C3=A8 l'alibi degli 
    idioti. Ci = rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. Magritte.
                =                   =    oooO
      =  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   = )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=                 =  \ (            (   )
=                 =                   \_) =          ) /
      =                     =                     =                     =      (_/



Il giorno 12 apr 2018, alle ore 07:54, Roni Even (A) <roni.even@huawei.com> ha scritto:

Simon,
In section 6 in the 2 and 3 bullets you = still have timeout.
I = have understand what the objective is but maybe just say if after 1 = minute or just remove the timeout
 
Roni
 
From: clue [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Simon Pietro = Romano
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 = 8:32 PM
To: Adam Roach
Cc: clue@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clue] AD Review: = draft-ietf-clue-protocol-13
 
Hello Adam!
 
We finally managed to get our review done. Please = find our answers in-line, [SPR]-prefixed, as usual.

            =                  &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;          =    _\\|//_
          =                          &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;          ( O-O )
      = ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                =             &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;  Simon = Pietro Romano
          =            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;      Universita' di = Napoli Federico II
          =               &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;               =  Computer Engineering Department 
        &= nbsp;             =        Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 = 7683816
              =                     =          e-mail: spromano@unina.it

        &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;               = <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento =C3=A8 l'alibi = degli 
        &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;               = idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. = Magritte.
              =          &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;                =                  oooO
       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   = )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;                =            \ (         =    (   )
        &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;        =                     =         \_)          ) /
                =                     =                     =                (_/
 
 
 
Thanks= for your thorough response! I've removed those issues that you've = addressed, and included responses to the remaining issues below.

IMPORTANT NOTE TO CLUE = WORKING GROUP: There is a discussion regarding retransmission timers = that you need to have. See the comments below for details.


On 10/6/17 1:37 PM, Simon = Pietro Romano wrote:



Title: The rule of thumb is that = all but a small handful of well-known acronyms need to be expanded in = titles and abstracts. I recognize that "CLUE" is a bit tortured, as = acronyms go, but the title of this document is, broadly speaking, = opaque. Please change it to something meaningful, such as "Protocol for = Controlling Multiple Streams for Telepresence (CLUE)=E2=80=9D

[SPR] Done.

I think this got missed. The header of the current version = still reads:

CLUE Working Group R. = Presta
Internet-Draft S. P. Romano
Intended = status: Standards Track University of Napoli
Expires: = April 9, 2018 October 6, 2017

          &nb= sp;            = ;      CLUE protocol
          &nb= sp;           = draft-ietf-clue-protocol-14
 
[SPR] I hope we really fixed it now. Thanks for spotting this = out.






General: There are three = instances of excessively long lines in the document.

[SPR] ???

The reformatting of XML in -14 has fixed this issue.
 
[SPR] Good to know.




BLOCKER: General: There are several = mentions of timeouts and retry thresholds in the text and its = corresponding state machines; however, the document neither defines nor = cites a document as defining what these timeout and retry values are. = These need to be defined and described. If the timer and retry scheme = allows the two ends of the connection to have different values for = timeouts and number of retries, then there need to be additional error = procedures that allow the MC and MP state machines to stay in sync (if = the timer/retry values can be different, it's possible for one state = machine to transition to "terminated," while the other is still active, = and you need messaging to clean this up).

[SPR] Our idea was to rely on a single, fixed, = application-level (i.e., CLUE-level) timeout value, rather than = leveraging a number of them (T1, T2, T4, plus Timer A through Timer K) = as in SIP. The value of the one and only timer would be the usual RTT = estimate (~500ms). Differently from protocols like SIP, we are also = leveraging retransmit counts to get out of a timeout-driven = retransmission loop. We=E2=80=99re not adding such information to the = revised version of the draft, because we=E2=80=99d first like to get = your feedback on the approach. If you (and the rest of the group) = believe this is a feasible approach, we can expand on that in a further = version of the document.

In thinking through what this scheme = should look like, it occurs to me that the CLUE messages are defined to = be sent over a reliable transport (SCTP), which has its own = retransmission timers and eventual timeouts. Implementing a = retransmission scheme on top of a reliable transport -- especially one = as aggressive as you suggest above -- will put more traffic on the = network when congestion occurs rather than less.

So, in the final analysis, I think the action here is to = remove retransmission timers and retry counts altogether. If the = underlying transport takes longer to detect a failure than is sensible = for CLUE (and it likely does), then a supervisory timer that declares = the session failed might make sense.
 
 
[SPR] We took your advice and got rid of timers and = retransmissions. You=E2=80=99ll find the updated state machines in the = new version of the draft (-15).






Section 5: The XML definition = allows zero or more <clueId> elements to appear in a message. If = more than one is allowed, the document should explain how multiple IDs = are handled. If they are not, then the schema and/or text needs to = prohibit having more than one.

[SPR] Actually, the schema states:

<xs:element name=3D"clueId" = type=3D"xs:string" minOccurs=3D"0=E2=80=9D/>

This should indicate that clueId can appear either 0 or 1 = times in a valid XML document. The default value for maxOccurs is in = fact 1. Don=E2=80=99t you agree on that?

Ah, you're correct. I=E2=80=99= m not used to seeing minOccurs without maxOccurs, but this is entirely = fine as it's currently written.
 
[SPR] Good.
 


BLOCKER: Section 5.1: The description of = <supportedVersions> describes a scheme in which multiple supported = versions can be listed; and, if the list is omitted, it implies that = only the version described in <v> is supported. This text does not = define (nor does any other text that I can find) what <v> should = be set to when <supportedVersions> is used. Intuitively, it seems = that <v> should be set to the largest minor version of the = smallest major version advertised in <supportedVersions>, but that = (or whatever the correct answer is) needs to be clearly spelled out.

[SPR] I believe we were giving for granted that =E2=80=9Cv=E2=80= =9D should be, in such case, the highest supported version (i.e., = largest major and larger minor numbers). Now that you make me think = around that, I would simply say that the =E2=80=9Cv=E2=80=9D attribute = MUST be set to one of the versions that the entity in question supports, = as per the <supportedVersions> list. I can, e.g., decide that I = send an =E2=80=98options=E2=80=99 with =E2=80=9Cv=3D12..23=E2=80=9D if = the <supportedVersions> list is like in the following:

<version>33.44</version>
<version>27.0</version>
<version>12.345</version>
<version>1.44</version>

I think this formulation is a problem. I assume the intention = behind the "v" field is that some implementation that receives a version = number in the "v" field with a major number higher than it understands = is supposed to close the connection, since it runs a risk of = misinterpreting the contents of messages. So, in your example, if you = sent "v=3D12.23" to my implementation that only spoke major version 1, I = would reject it, even though you also support major version 1. That=E2=80=99= s why I was thinking it should contain the smallest major version being = advertised.
 
[SPR] You convinced us. The new version of the draft now = =E2=80=9Creflects your reflections=E2=80=9D. We even borrowed your own = words in the descriptive part.



The = minor version is obviously less useful in this context, since they're = defined to be backwards and forwards compatible, but it's more useful to = know the highest minor version supported than some random minor version, = as it indicates the full feature set that is supported. The reason = it=E2=80=99s less useful is that the value can be parsed out of the = <version> list.
 
[SPR] Agreed. And inserted into the document.




BLOCKING: The state machines in = section 6 and its subsections don't have transitions for all possible = messages that could arrive in a state. This can cause interop issues. = Please add text that clearly indicates whether such messages do or do = not cause a transition. (This might be as simple as "messages not shown = for a state do not cause the state to change," but only if you carefully = check that this is true -- for example, what should an MP state machine = do do if it gets a "CONF + ACK" in the state "WAIT FOR CONF"?)

[SPR] In the specific case you mention, I would expect that a = 302 is generated (Invalid Parameter), since the incoming CONF should not = contain the <ack> element. This said, I see your point related to = the potential lack of some edges in the state machine graph. This point = is obviously also related to the =E2=80=9Ctimeout=E2=80=9D issue you = raised before. Different ways of managing timeouts will definitely have = different impacts on the current state machines.
We will = defer the modification of the diagrams in question to the next revision = round. In the meanwhile, we=E2=80=99ll give a thought to potential = further unexpected transactions to be taken into account.

Based on my analysis above, I think the state machines will = get a bit simpler, as they won=E2=80=99t have retransmission counts any = longer.
 
[SPR] See my answer above.
 






Section 6.2 describes a state = machine that starts in a state called "WAIT FOR ADV." This state does = not appear to be timer-supervised, meaning that implementations of this = state machine can stay in this state literally forever. Is that the = intention?

[SPR] The idea would be to open a socket and start listening = for incoming advertisements. Isn=E2=80=99t that OK?

At some point, I think you're going to want to conclude that = the CLUE data channel isn't going to get set up correctly, and signal = that to the application in some way. This is probably on the order of a = minute or so.
 
[SPR] We have not yet added this consideration to the = draft. I personally believe this makes sense. Do you think we should add = this as a general consideration when introducing the overall state = machines?




Section 8 indicates that = extensions need to indicate "the standard version of the protocol the = extension refers to." Given that there is compatibility within a major = version of a protocol, I think this means to say "the major standard = version of the protocol that the extension refers to.=E2=80=9D

[SPR] My extension might be associated with version 3.6 of = the protocol. This means that it will need to be supported by all = versions higher than that (3.7 onwards). Though, this does not entail = that versions 3.5 and lower should understand it. Right?

I'm a bit confused. Is the notion here that extensions, once = introduced, always become a mandatory-to-implement part of the protocol? = If that's the case, it's not clear why you would need to advertise them = explicitly, since support would be implied by the version number itself. = (This isn't unheard of: it's how NFS has historically handled version = numbers, for example.) However, I didn't get the impression that CLUE = protocol extensions were handled in such a way. If this is the = intention, there needs to be a lot more text that makes this MTI aspect = of extensions clear, and a reconsideration of why you=E2=80=99re = signaling them individually rather than inferring them from the version = number.
 
[SPR] You=E2=80=99re right. We were mixing things up. We now = make a reference to the *major* standard version.




Section 8 contains schema that = contains a <version> element. It should be clarified that this is = the *protocol* version, not the *extension* version (or, if it's the = extension version, that needs to be spelled out too, but I think you'll = need a new namespace for that...?)

[SPR] I thought this was clear from the third bullet point in = the list:

- the standard version of = the protocol the extension refers to.

Isn=E2=80= =99t this enough? In such a case, what would you suggest to add?

Ah, I see. It wasn't clear that these three bullets = corresponded to the elements in the XML. Perhaps make this clearer with = something like =E2=80=9CThe values of the fields of the = <extension> element take the following values:" (and maybe move it = closer to the actual XML).
 
[SPR] The paragraph in question has been properly reformatted = and should now leave no space to misinterpretations.






The = remainder of this comment is non-blocking: I also find the "SHOULD" in = this section to be highly perplexing. Can you explain the rationale = behind requiring schema, but not requiring any description of what the = schema *means?)

[SPR] It is like coding without adding = comments/documentation. Documentation is most welcome, but not = mandatory. Don=E2=80=99t you agree?

I don't. It seems more = like committing a header file without the corresponding implementation = file. Just because people know what things are called doesn't mean that = they can handle them. For interop, you=E2=80=99re going to need some = description of what the fields mean and how the messages are = handled.
 
[SPR] Got it! SHOULD has been replaced with a MUST.
 





The schema in section 9 contains:
<xs:import = namespace=3D"urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-info"
schemaLocation=3D"data-model-schema-17.xsd"/>

If you do not intend to bake this "-17" into = the document (and I can't imagine you do), please add an RFC editor note = to change it to something else upon publication.

[SPR] Done. I am not very familiar with RFC editor notes, = indeed. Here is what we added at the beginning of section 9:

"NOTE TO THE RFC-Editor: Please replace = "data-model-schema-17.xsd" with the right schema location for the CLUE = data model schema document (which is still to be defined at the time of = this writing) in this section prior to publication as an RFC.=E2=80=9D

Does this work for you?

That's perfect. Thanks!
 
[SPR] Good.




Section 10 in general: While it = does consume a lot of space, I don't think that defining six rather = different message types and then showing only *one* type in the examples = is very illustrative of the protocol. I would *STRONGLY* suggest adding = at least a response message, and ideally the example section should = contain at least one example for each of the six message types.

[SPR] Will do in the (hopefully final) revision of the = document. Let=E2=80=99s first double check that the proposed = modifications are OK.

Sounds good.
 
 
[SPR] We will keep this as an Action Point for us, to be = fulfilled before submitting the very last version of the draft.






Section = 12.1 has a strange double-double quote around the URN name, and section = 12.3 repeats this for the MIME type.

[SPR] I don=E2=80=99t understand = this. Can you please clarify?


Replace

  ""urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-protocol"".

with

  "urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-protocol".


And then replace

  This section registers the = ""application/clue+xml"" MIME type.

with

  This section registers the = =E2=80=9Capplication/clue+xml=E2=80=9D MIME type.
 
[SPR] I think this is OK now.
 
Thanks!
 
Simon & Roberta




Thanks!

/a

 
 

                =              &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;           =        _\\|//_
      =                     =          &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;               ( = O-O )
      = ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                =             &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;       Simon = Pietro Romano
          =            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;  Universita' di = Napoli Federico II
          =               &= nbsp;               =  Computer Engineering Department 
        &= nbsp;         =        Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 = 7683816
              =                     =          e-mail: spromano@unina.it

        &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;       = <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento =C3=A8 l'alibi = degli 
        &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;       = idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. = Magritte.
              =          &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;                =                  oooO
       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   = )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;    =                \ (     =        (   )
        &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;         =                     =         \_)          ) /
                =                     =                     =               =  (_/

= --Apple-Mail=_3257654D-A2BD-4E3A-869B-9E08636FD40E-- --Apple-Mail=_374976B1-37B1-4D6D-8158-A4C44ED7E0A8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEBPyteCAEtPtx8MMiwqEdBn5wGy0FAltoHu0ACgkQwqEdBn5w Gy34PxAArraty8uybgMRk+rbgAUFSLcsNqcy27vvP3iiRdoanobgqMzX08zUWPNt 4TlbviKbBidQDGN8cBClezWELGC/hwWmo3/xj1gsX06MPyO0wjXZI/jGRldMiSfk qb8F4g7rSUj80bSb+YbuRG1T9wft8OAFM0TYRA2AxCjxcu6ntvoOfr65UEHkF0TE 8s+B+PSXXn97Lvnj3goScgsdo4J2Wvr+K7GH6+yZRjo5uxmnLerUk1vGri/nV8SZ udfE9QFADJMV+RGGK93diIucjkHBaR8zt8xhWpzyJRQZhAzRf7/OEh+KRb5OZMkS GHhYipVl9rQLGBfbxxidXrGehjGF2RakVv0YtJt8OdJBpmOBJH9JT19NtGonwgdF QxiWcXKInHyo/3g/QSEUeBu7dmlDZmFOQQTwE5LPAVK9P88xQyXX0RwAD21nxSUg tmxkExIyQde2Vel8GcdaQ5lxYAN18P7pRWWArLXR2O55p04CVX4F6vOyUphTbOyD WAtRz6fiq62hwZ/IC5fdsE4QU9yF7hYVqyCG0xtff/QDZKoA5eKPdhv/IOpHpyc/ OBp0npNqJDzWRAWMwvBZNkAX8bLgspO+rXwMZGF2tBE7cxLVNgaET2bOcnV133xc zrbLRQ0azlgLSf93VC772ZfE5/UsvGNRAPdERF2J/JW+kkhuYxE= =qyyZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_374976B1-37B1-4D6D-8158-A4C44ED7E0A8-- From nobody Wed Aug 8 17:58:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E9C5130F43 for ; Wed, 8 Aug 2018 17:58:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.878 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.878 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7_UEx3r2psyC for ; Wed, 8 Aug 2018 17:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDB98130F2F for ; Wed, 8 Aug 2018 17:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Svantevit.roach.at (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w790viIG032345 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 8 Aug 2018 19:57:55 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be Svantevit.roach.at To: Simon Pietro Romano Cc: clue@ietf.org, Roberta Presta References: <8D2EDAF8-014E-477A-AECD-79D944EA4503@unina.it> <216405E3-5A89-4FF2-9C89-CEDA03BF6A04@unina.it> <3fdd8d7e-fcc6-7bac-0d03-3873973a875d@nostrum.com> <8DAFF0AE-34FC-473E-B9F0-31DA32ED22BF@unina.it> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <6eed0a22-8864-9631-4ee9-33773e1b6b10@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 19:57:39 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8DAFF0AE-34FC-473E-B9F0-31DA32ED22BF@unina.it> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9D02C27149CFF486603F8DE5" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] AD Review: draft-ietf-clue-protocol-13 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2018 00:58:09 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9D02C27149CFF486603F8DE5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for all the work you've done here; things are looking to be in good shape. I just went over all the changes from -13 to -16, and they look good to me. I believe that my initial review feedback has been addressed, and I have only a small handful of nits that you should address when you fix the problem you describe below. (I see no problem with your proposed solution, but I don't claim to fully understand the ramifications). I'm ready to put this document (and the signaling document) into IETF last call as soon as the issue you've identified below has been resolved. My list of nits with the -16 version follows. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please update the reference to RFC 5226 to instead indicate RFC 8126. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please update the reference to RFC 5117 to instead indicate RFC 7667. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- §10.2: The title of this section should refer to 'options', not 'option' --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Figure 15: > targetNamespace="http://example.extensions.com/myVideoExtensions"  ... >  xmlns="http://example.extensions.com/myVideoExtensions" The domain "extensions.com" is owned by the company "Hair Extensions Solutions, LLC" and not appropriate for use in an RFC. Please change to, e.g., "extensions.example.com". --------------------------------------------------------------------------- §12.1: >   This section registers a new XML namespace, >   ""urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-protocol"".      ^                                    ^ This line still has too many quotation marks. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- §12.1: >  This section registers the ""application/clue+xml"" MIME type.                               ^                      ^ This line still has too many quotation marks. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- /a On 8/6/18 5:09 AM, Simon Pietro Romano wrote: > Hello Adam! > > version -16 of the draft had just been posted. You’ll find there a > whole new section (section 10) about the requested call flow. We have > added validated excerpts of all of the messages. > You’ll notice that we put the following note at the end of the > introductory part of section 10: > > [[NOTE TO IANA/RFC-EDITOR: For sections 10.1 through 10.9, please > replace the clue-protocol xsi:schemaLocation URL (which is currently > set to > http://wpage.unina.it/spromano/clue-protocol-15-schema-file.xsd) with > the right (and final) URL for this specification. The URL ib question > is a temporary one, which was published on-line in order to allow for > proper validation of the XML excerpts contained in the call flow > sections.]] > > This was needed because we had to refer to the clue protocol schema > file in order to validate the messages. > > Please read below for a further (minor) issue we encountered… > > **************************************************************************************************************************************** > NOTE TO THE GROUP, DATA MODEL RELATED: > > While doing the call flow homework, we realized there’s a minor > modification that would be desirable inside the data model schema. > Namely, there is a “sceneViewIDREF” field that we defined ad IDREF (In > terms of XML datatypes). This seemed OK at that time. Though, we now > realized that it prevents correct validation of CONFIGURE messages, An > example of the mentioned issue can be found in the (NOT currently > valid) “Conf+Ack” excerpt I am attaching g below (where the culprit is > in bold): > > >  xmlns:ns2="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-protocol" >  xmlns:ns3="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:vcard-4.0" >  xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" >  xsi:schemaLocation="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-protocol > http://wpage.unina.it/spromano/clue-protocol-15-schema-file.xsd" >  protocol="CLUE" v="2.7"> >     CP2 >     22 >     11 >     200 >      >          >            AC0 >            ENC4 >          >          >            VC3 >            ENC1 >             > * SE1* >             >         >      > > > In order to sort this issue out, it would be sufficient to modify the > above mentioned IDREF type and let it become a simpler xs:string. With > this modification, we might seamlessly reuse such a data model > structure inside CLUE Configure messages (and not just inside > Advertisements when describing MCC captures). Do you all agree on this > proposal? > > **************************************************************************************************************************************** > > Cheers, > > Simon > > > > >          _\\|//_ > ( O-O ) > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Simon Pietro Romano >  Universita' di Napoli Federico II >    Computer Engineering Department >            Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7683816 >                                            e-mail: spromano@unina.it > > >   <   idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. Magritte. >                    oooO >        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >                \ (            (   ) >                                 \_)          ) / >              (_/ > > > >> Il giorno 18 mag 2018, alle ore 04:54, Adam Roach > > ha scritto: >> >> [re-sending due to an IETF mailing list server outage] >> >> On 4/11/18 12:31 PM, Simon Pietro Romano wrote: >>> Hello Adam! >>> >>> We finally managed to get our review done. Please find our answers >>> in-line, [SPR]-prefixed, as usual. >>> >> ... >> >>> [SPR] We have not yet added this consideration to the draft. I >>> personally believe this makes sense. Do you think we should add this >>> as a general consideration when introducing the overall state machines? >> >> That would probably be an improvement, yes. >> >> ... >> >>> [SPR] We will keep this as an Action Point for us, to be fulfilled >>> before submitting the very last version of the draft. >> >> >> Just a heads up that I'm waiting for the document to >> incorporate these two open items before progressing it. Thanks! >> >> /a > --------------9D02C27149CFF486603F8DE5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Thanks for all the work you've done here; things are looking to be in good shape. I just went over all the changes from -13 to -16, and they look good to me. I believe that my initial review feedback has been addressed, and I have only a small handful of nits that you should address when you fix the <sceneViewIDREF> problem you describe below. (I see no problem with your proposed solution, but I don't claim to fully understand the ramifications).

I'm ready to put this document (and the signaling document) into IETF last call as soon as the issue you've identified below has been resolved.

My list of nits with the -16 version follows.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please update the reference to RFC 5226 to instead indicate RFC 8126.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please update the reference to RFC 5117 to instead indicate RFC 7667.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

§10.2: The title of this section should refer to 'options', not 'option'

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Figure 15:

> targetNamespace="http://example.extensions.com/myVideoExtensions"
 ...
>  xmlns="http://example.extensions.com/myVideoExtensions"

The domain "extensions.com" is owned by the company "Hair Extensions Solutions,
LLC" and not appropriate for use in an RFC. Please change to, e.g.,
"extensions.example.com".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

§12.1:

>   This section registers a new XML namespace,
>   ""urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-protocol"".
     ^                                    ^

This line still has too many quotation marks.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

§12.1:

>  This section registers the ""application/clue+xml"" MIME type.
                              ^                      ^

This line still has too many quotation marks.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

/a


On 8/6/18 5:09 AM, Simon Pietro Romano wrote:
Hello Adam!

version -16 of the draft had just been posted. You’ll find there a whole new section (section 10) about the requested call flow. We have added validated excerpts of all of the messages.
You’ll notice that we put the following note at the end of the introductory part of section 10:

[[NOTE TO IANA/RFC-EDITOR: For sections 10.1 through 10.9, please replace the clue-protocol xsi:schemaLocation URL (which is currently set to http://wpage.unina.it/spromano/clue-protocol-15-schema-file.xsd) with the right (and final) URL for this specification. The URL ib question is a temporary one, which was published on-line in order to allow for proper validation of the XML excerpts contained in the call flow sections.]]

This was needed because we had to refer to the clue protocol schema file in order to validate the messages.

Please read below for a further (minor) issue we encountered…

****************************************************************************************************************************************
NOTE TO THE GROUP, DATA MODEL RELATED:

While doing the call flow homework, we realized there’s a minor modification that would be desirable inside the data model schema. Namely, there is a “sceneViewIDREF” field that we defined ad IDREF (In terms of XML datatypes). This seemed OK at that time. Though, we now realized that it prevents correct validation of CONFIGURE messages, An example of the mentioned issue can be found in the (NOT currently valid) “Conf+Ack” excerpt I am attaching g below (where the culprit is in bold):

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="yes"?>
<ns2:configure xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-info"
 xmlns:ns2="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-protocol"
 xmlns:ns3="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:vcard-4.0" 
 xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" 
 xsi:schemaLocation="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-protocol http://wpage.unina.it/spromano/clue-protocol-15-schema-file.xsd"
 protocol="CLUE" v="2.7">
    <ns2:clueId>CP2</ns2:clueId>
    <ns2:sequenceNr>22</ns2:sequenceNr> 
    <ns2:advSequenceNr>11</ns2:advSequenceNr>
    <ns2:ack>200</ns2:ack> 
    <ns2:captureEncodings>
        <captureEncoding ID="ce123">
           <captureID>AC0</captureID>
           <encodingID>ENC4</encodingID>
        </captureEncoding>
        <captureEncoding ID="ce223">
           <captureID>VC3</captureID>
           <encodingID>ENC1</encodingID>
           <configuredContent>
              <sceneViewIDREF>SE1</sceneViewIDREF>
           </configuredContent>
       </captureEncoding>
    </ns2:captureEncodings>
</ns2:configure>

In order to sort this issue out, it would be sufficient to modify the above mentioned IDREF type and let it become a simpler xs:string. With this modification, we might seamlessly reuse such a data model structure inside CLUE Configure messages (and not just inside Advertisements when describing MCC captures). Do you all agree on this proposal?

****************************************************************************************************************************************

Cheers,

Simon




                                  _\\|//_
                               ( O-O )
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                     Simon Pietro Romano
               Universita' di Napoli Federico II
                      Computer Engineering Department 
             Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7683816
                                           e-mail: spromano@unina.it

    <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento è l'alibi degli 
    idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. Magritte.
                                     oooO
       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                 \ (            (   )
                                  \_)          ) /
                                                                       (_/



Il giorno 18 mag 2018, alle ore 04:54, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> ha scritto:

[re-sending due to an IETF mailing list server outage]

On 4/11/18 12:31 PM, Simon Pietro Romano wrote:
Hello Adam!

We finally managed to get our review done. Please find our answers in-line, [SPR]-prefixed, as usual.

...

[SPR] We have not yet added this consideration to the draft. I personally believe this makes sense. Do you think we should add this as a general consideration when introducing the overall state machines?

That would probably be an improvement, yes.

...

[SPR] We will keep this as an Action Point for us, to be fulfilled before submitting the very last version of the draft.


Just a heads up that I'm waiting for the document to incorporate these two open items before progressing it. Thanks!

/a


--------------9D02C27149CFF486603F8DE5-- From nobody Thu Aug 9 03:21:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8097C130E04 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2018 03:21:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dSZw4YTH6UCK for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2018 03:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DA0512F1AB for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2018 03:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml708-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id C1E3C8BE70FB5 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2018 11:21:21 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEMM404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.212) by lhreml708-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.49) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.399.0; Thu, 9 Aug 2018 11:21:22 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.158]) by DGGEMM404-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.212]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Thu, 9 Aug 2018 18:21:18 +0800 From: "Roni Even (A)" To: "clue@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: need review of propsed change by Simon to the data model Thread-Index: AdQvyoP8W2vjwgzpQ6OS6AUcan8hAA== Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 10:21:18 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8BB376@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.202.143] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_005_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8BB376DGGEMM506MBXchina_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [clue] need review of propsed change by Simon to the data model X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2018 10:21:29 -0000 --_005_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8BB376DGGEMM506MBXchina_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8BB376DGGEMM506MBXchina_" --_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8BB376DGGEMM506MBXchina_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksDQpQbGVhc2UgcmV2aWV3IFNpbW9u4oCZcyBwcm9wb3NhbCBiZWxsb3cNClJvbmkgRXZlbg0K Q0xVRSBXRyBjby1jaGFpcg0KDQoNCkZyb206IGNsdWUgW21haWx0bzpjbHVlLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0 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localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 359D0130E0A for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2018 03:29:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tfzv76hBU-9D for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2018 03:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D13C130E06 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2018 03:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 66D19D54E6670 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2018 11:29:26 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEMM401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.209) by lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.47) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.399.0; Thu, 9 Aug 2018 11:29:27 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.158]) by DGGEMM401-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.209]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Thu, 9 Aug 2018 18:29:14 +0800 From: "Roni Even (A)" To: Simon Pietro Romano CC: "clue@ietf.org" , Adam Roach Thread-Topic: [clue] AD Review: draft-ietf-clue-protocol-13 Thread-Index: AQHULW2bJPs5vaSyWEqV7DTvHAtxIaS3OpWA Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 10:29:14 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8BB398@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <8D2EDAF8-014E-477A-AECD-79D944EA4503@unina.it> <216405E3-5A89-4FF2-9C89-CEDA03BF6A04@unina.it> <3fdd8d7e-fcc6-7bac-0d03-3873973a875d@nostrum.com> <8DAFF0AE-34FC-473E-B9F0-31DA32ED22BF@unina.it> In-Reply-To: <8DAFF0AE-34FC-473E-B9F0-31DA32ED22BF@unina.it> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US 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X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OLL2GdidCfkp for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2018 17:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unina.it (fmvip.unina.it [IPv6:2001:760:3403:ffff::7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D37D2130DC5 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2018 17:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.unina.it (smtp1.unina.it [192.132.34.61]) by leas1.unina.it with ESMTP id w7A00D4x001837-w7A00D51001837 (version=TLSv1.0 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 10 Aug 2018 02:00:13 +0200 Received: from [192.168.5.170] ([66.77.70.71]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp1.unina.it (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w7A00AW5025300 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 10 Aug 2018 02:00:11 +0200 From: Simon Pietro Romano Message-Id: <8CE6B2EA-1B7E-453C-9ACD-C2377C879358@unina.it> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D03EB007-F419-4FAC-8846-E349A0077033"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 17:00:07 -0700 In-Reply-To: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8BB398@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> Cc: "clue@ietf.org" , Adam Roach To: "Roni Even (A)" References: <8D2EDAF8-014E-477A-AECD-79D944EA4503@unina.it> <216405E3-5A89-4FF2-9C89-CEDA03BF6A04@unina.it> <3fdd8d7e-fcc6-7bac-0d03-3873973a875d@nostrum.com> <8DAFF0AE-34FC-473E-B9F0-31DA32ED22BF@unina.it> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8BB398@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] AD Review: draft-ietf-clue-protocol-13 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 00:00:51 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D03EB007-F419-4FAC-8846-E349A0077033 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hello Roni, > Are you suggesting a change in the CLUE data model draft the = configuredContent? No, we would just like to change the form type = =E2=80=9CIDREF=E2=80=9D to type =E2=80=9Cxs:string=E2=80=9D. Cheers, Simon _\\|//_ ( O-O ) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Simon Pietro Romano Universita' di Napoli Federico = II Computer Engineering Department Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7683816 e-mail: spromano@unina.it <>. = Magritte. oooO ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ \ ( = ( ) \_) ) = / = (_/ > Il giorno 09 ago 2018, alle ore 03:29, Roni Even (A) = ha scritto: >=20 > Hi Simon, > Are you suggesting a change in the CLUE data model draft the = configuredContent? > In this case I was wondering since the configuredContent is of type = contentType which also has mediaCaptureIDREF which will not parse in = configure message. > Can you please explain? >=20 > Roni Even as individual >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: clue [mailto:clue-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Simon Pietro = Romano > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2018 1:09 PM > To: Adam Roach > Cc: clue@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clue] AD Review: draft-ietf-clue-protocol-13 >=20 > Hello Adam! >=20 > version -16 of the draft had just been posted. You=E2=80=99ll find = there a whole new section (section 10) about the requested call flow. We = have added validated excerpts of all of the messages. > You=E2=80=99ll notice that we put the following note at the end of the = introductory part of section 10: >=20 > [[NOTE TO IANA/RFC-EDITOR: For sections 10.1 through 10.9, please = replace the clue-protocol xsi:schemaLocation URL (which is currently set = to http://wpage.unina.it/spromano/clue-protocol-15-schema-file..xsd) = with the right (and final) URL for this specification. The URL ib = question is a temporary one, which was published on-line in order to = allow for proper validation of the XML excerpts contained in the call = flow sections.]] >=20 > This was needed because we had to refer to the clue protocol schema = file in order to validate the messages. >=20 > Please read below for a further (minor) issue we encountered=E2=80=A6 >=20 > = **************************************************************************= ************************************************************** > NOTE TO THE GROUP, DATA MODEL RELATED: >=20 > While doing the call flow homework, we realized there=E2=80=99s a = minor modification that would be desirable inside the data model schema. = Namely, there is a =E2=80=9CsceneViewIDREF=E2=80=9D field that we = defined ad IDREF (In terms of XML datatypes). This seemed OK at that = time. Though, we now realized that it prevents correct validation of = CONFIGURE messages, An example of the mentioned issue can be found in = the (NOT currently valid) =E2=80=9CConf+Ack=E2=80=9D excerpt I am = attaching g below (where the culprit is in bold): >=20 > > xmlns:ns2=3D"urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-protocol" > xmlns:ns3=3D"urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:vcard-4.0" > xmlns:xsi=3D"http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" > xsi:schemaLocation=3D"urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:clue-protocol = http://wpage.unina.it/spromano/clue-protocol-15-schema-file.xsd" > protocol=3D"CLUE" v=3D"2.7"> > CP2 > 22 > 11 > 200 > > > AC0 > ENC4 > > > VC3 > ENC1 > > SE1 > > > > >=20 > In order to sort this issue out, it would be sufficient to modify the = above mentioned IDREF type and let it become a simpler xs:string. With = this modification, we might seamlessly reuse such a data model structure = inside CLUE Configure messages (and not just inside Advertisements when = describing MCC captures). Do you all agree on this proposal? >=20 > = **************************************************************************= ************************************************************** >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Simon >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > = _\\|//_ > = ( O-O ) > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Simon = Pietro Romano > = Universita' di Napoli Federico II > Computer Engineering = Department > Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 = 7683816 > e-mail: spromano@unina.it >=20 > < idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi = scoraggio>>. Magritte. > = oooO > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > = \ ( ( ) > = \_) ) / > = (_/ >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Il giorno 18 mag 2018, alle ore 04:54, Adam Roach = ha scritto: >=20 > [re-sending due to an IETF mailing list server outage] >=20 > On 4/11/18 12:31 PM, Simon Pietro Romano wrote: >=20 > Hello Adam! >=20 > We finally managed to get our review done. Please find our answers = in-line, [SPR]-prefixed, as usual. >=20 > ... >=20 >=20 > [SPR] We have not yet added this consideration to the draft. I = personally believe this makes sense. Do you think we should add this as = a general consideration when introducing the overall state machines? >=20 > That would probably be an improvement, yes. >=20 > ... >=20 >=20 > [SPR] We will keep this as an Action Point for us, to be fulfilled = before submitting the very last version of the draft. >=20 >=20 > Just a heads up that I'm waiting for the document to incorporate these = two open items before progressing it. Thanks! >=20 > /a --Apple-Mail=_D03EB007-F419-4FAC-8846-E349A0077033 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEBPyteCAEtPtx8MMiwqEdBn5wGy0FAlts1YcACgkQwqEdBn5w Gy0EshAA0wM6YwsdPcI3DqtvkrHoeYBewsxjb65s5fzEO3Tq1bm981vUjFdPVXJT I+lpNl9uoauTYS6/awrFHIZ7NtuYf+kWUPyUkHIld2xltsKAa4tmNObcwqPk6s0/ IVX2OehXGyn8dJTOtuSYF4QF8pZ81nISEaYSxxT6qjr2n2lhDKhVJUyT0RzPocon 5ApD9f7xlZLtx0pSToorn8gd0asWNkKjG0c3aJMIWLucj4hGNCKYVVWyUga/C720 BoY9g3V6f2Wk/qgvzXypju+LYIRisT0SnLHFzdRA5c/q367NuGCNNjiU89SXQajF UOnYF0O9knAwpUMbAYUb0q4h/4sjagtBnjjxQBEaqjE7eQ8c3Dz8beyrSWkqoMaV uTwf/Hs37bZ/k1RuuBjakeE6miIzTkZX4o9CS6koxYULF35+m5CRivfcNxCrzqu3 gx06b3lz8h1/k92tOlOvimNqdCBDPZ/eoCF6EvJLMaXM9Pe4+TbZCLS2xk2qktP9 U2H4TxjilxtT22hTy0RQtihwJar9pnwf6jGVkVGtuALX5HeS2P2N1tH+KKXL/mxO 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(256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9107128BAC for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2018 00:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 59B5AE85E8C3F for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2018 08:05:50 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEMM401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.209) by lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.47) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.399.0; Sun, 12 Aug 2018 08:05:52 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.158]) by DGGEMM401-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.209]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Sun, 12 Aug 2018 15:05:40 +0800 From: "Roni Even (A)" To: Simon Pietro Romano CC: "clue@ietf.org" , Adam Roach Thread-Topic: [clue] AD Review: draft-ietf-clue-protocol-13 Thread-Index: AQHULW2bJPs5vaSyWEqV7DTvHAtxIaS3OpWAgABepYCABBvpoA== Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2018 07:05:41 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8BB684@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <8D2EDAF8-014E-477A-AECD-79D944EA4503@unina.it> <216405E3-5A89-4FF2-9C89-CEDA03BF6A04@unina.it> <3fdd8d7e-fcc6-7bac-0d03-3873973a875d@nostrum.com> <8DAFF0AE-34FC-473E-B9F0-31DA32ED22BF@unina.it> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8BB398@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <8CE6B2EA-1B7E-453C-9ACD-C2377C879358@unina.it> In-Reply-To: <8CE6B2EA-1B7E-453C-9ACD-C2377C879358@unina.it> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.202.143] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] AD Review: draft-ietf-clue-protocol-13 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: 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dXN0IGEgaGVhZHMgdXAgdGhhdCBJJ20gd2FpdGluZyBmb3IgdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IHRvIGluY29y cG9yYXRlIHRoZXNlIHR3byBvcGVuIGl0ZW1zIGJlZm9yZSBwcm9ncmVzc2luZyBpdC4gVGhhbmtz IQ0KPiANCj4gL2ENCg0K From nobody Wed Aug 15 23:35:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietf.org Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65531130E63; Wed, 15 Aug 2018 23:35:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: ron.even.tlv@gmail.com, adam@nostrum.com, clue-chairs@ietf.org, clue@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.83.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <153440131941.3180.14760258451559721844.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 23:35:19 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [clue] clue - Not having a session at IETF 103 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 06:35:19 -0000 Roni Even, a chair of the clue working group, indicated that the clue working group does not plan to hold a session at IETF 103. This message was generated and sent by the IETF Meeting Session Request Tool. From nobody Wed Aug 22 10:59:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2597130DBE; Wed, 22 Aug 2018 10:59:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.879 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.879 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mx8eKgY6Uw9Q; Wed, 22 Aug 2018 10:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 338B1130E01; Wed, 22 Aug 2018 10:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Svantevit.roach.at (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w7MHwxF3079673 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 22 Aug 2018 12:59:01 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be Svantevit.roach.at From: Adam Roach To: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "mmusic@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" , "clue@ietf.org" Reply-To: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion Message-ID: <15d3b114-5c04-61c4-8a62-61d8a414143d@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 12:58:50 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------25F6808114B810D3242F1D07" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 17:59:12 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------25F6808114B810D3242F1D07 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Members of the ART community interested in real-time communications: Cluster 238 [1] is a set of inter-related documents dealing with real-time communications. The bulk of these documents relate to WebRTC, either directly or indirectly. They also form the underpinnings of CLUE. As of now, there are 34 documents in the cluster that are not yet published, with 25 of these already in the RFC Editor's queue. The dependency graph among these documents is such that the bulk of them can be published as soon as a specific six of them are handed off to the RFC editor, and we expect this to happen in the upcoming few months. One long-running complication for this cluster of documents is that each of the documents were developed over the course of seven years, in concert with implementations, while the ICE protocol itself was undergoing significant revision. As a consequence, some documents rely (directly or indirectly) on the older ICE specification (RFC 5245), while some rely on the newer one (RFC 8445). In some cases, documents refer directly to the old version and transitively to the new version. It is noteworthy that RFC 8445 obsoletes RFC 5245; and that the mechanism described in RFC 8445 has some  changes that break backwards compatibility with the mechanism defined in RFC 5245 (with such behavioral changes controlled by an SDP attribute, allowing clients to transition from one to the other). Most notably, draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep (which is the core WebRTC protocol in the IETF) refers to directly to RFC 5245, while relying on the behavior defined in draft-ietf-ice-trickle; draft-ietf-ice-trickle, in turn, is based on the newer RFC 8445 handling. JSEP's reference to RFC 5245 is a practical consideration that acknowledges that current deployments of WebRTC implement the older version of ICE. At the same time, these deployed implementations use a somewhat older version of draft-ietf-ice-trickle in concert with the older ICE implementation. In order to get Cluster 238 published, we need to find some way to rationalize its references to ICE. At a basic level, the ART Area Directors do not believe that it makes sense to publish new documents that refer to an already obsoleted RFC. At the same time, we recognize that there is value in our specifications being informed by running code. For WebRTC, the complexity of the system has led us to a point that we must choose between these principles. Our proposal is to choose the first, while acknowledging the second. This would result in a request to the RFC editor to update all references to RFC 5245 in the Cluster 238 documents to instead point to RFC 8445. Documents not yet in the RFC editor queue would be updated prior to IESG review. We would further request that the RFC editor add the following text to draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview and draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep: > While this specification formally relies on [RFC8445], at the time of > its publication, the majority of WebRTC implementations support the > version of ICE described in [RFC5245], and use a pre-standard version > of the trickle ice mechanism described in [RFCXXXX]. The use of the > "ice2" attribute defined in [RFC8445] can be used to detect the > version in use by a remote endpoint and to provide a smooth transition > from the older specification to the newer one. RFC 8445 would be a normative reference for both documents, while RFC 5245 would be informative. There is one more minor complication, in that draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes (which currently points to RFC 5245) is intended to be an exhaustive list of the SDP attributes defined in the documents it lists, and RFC 8445 adds a new "ice2" attribute that was not present in RFC 5245. For this reason, we would also ask the RFC Editor to add a new row to the table in draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes section 5.12, as follows: > +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+ > | Name | Notes | Level | Mux | > | | | | Category | > +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+ > | ice2 | Not Impacted | S | NORMAL | > | | | | | > +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+ For clarity, the affected documents are as follows. The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 prior to IESG evaluation: * draft-ietf-clue-datachannel * draft-ietf-clue-signaling * draft-ietf-rtcweb-security * draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 by the RFC Editor: * draft-ietf-mmusic-mux-exclusive * draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp * draft-ietf-rtcweb-alpn * draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel * draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 and have the text proposed above added to them: * draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep * draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview The following document would be updated to reference RFC 8445 by the RFC Editor, and include a new row for "ice2" in its Section 5.12, as described above: * draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes This message is cross-posted to the affected working groups. Because the issue at hand has impact across several different groups, we ask that all follow-up discussion take place on . Thank you. /Adam on behalf of the ART Area Directors ____ [1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C238 --------------25F6808114B810D3242F1D07 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Members of the ART community interested in real-time communications:

Cluster 238 [1] is a set of inter-related documents dealing with real-time communications. The bulk of these documents relate to WebRTC, either directly or indirectly. They also form the underpinnings of CLUE. As of now, there are 34 documents in the cluster that are not yet published, with 25 of these already in the RFC Editor's queue. The dependency graph among these documents is such that the bulk of them can be published as soon as a specific six of them are handed off to the RFC editor, and we expect this to happen in the upcoming few months.

One long-running complication for this cluster of documents is that each of the documents were developed over the course of seven years, in concert with implementations, while the ICE protocol itself was undergoing significant revision. As a consequence, some documents rely (directly or indirectly) on the older ICE specification (RFC 5245), while some rely on the newer one (RFC 8445). In some cases, documents refer directly to the old version and transitively to the new version.

It is noteworthy that RFC 8445 obsoletes RFC 5245; and that the mechanism described in RFC 8445 has some  changes that break backwards compatibility with the mechanism defined in RFC 5245 (with such behavioral changes controlled by an SDP attribute, allowing clients to transition from one to the other).

Most notably, draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep (which is the core WebRTC protocol in the IETF) refers to directly to RFC 5245, while relying on the behavior defined in draft-ietf-ice-trickle; draft-ietf-ice-trickle, in turn, is based on the newer RFC 8445 handling. JSEP's reference to RFC 5245 is a practical consideration that acknowledges that current deployments of WebRTC implement the older version of ICE. At the same time, these deployed implementations use a somewhat older version of draft-ietf-ice-trickle in concert with the older ICE implementation.

In order to get Cluster 238 published, we need to find some way to rationalize its references to ICE. At a basic level, the ART Area Directors do not believe that it makes sense to publish new documents that refer to an already obsoleted RFC. At the same time, we recognize that there is value in our specifications being informed by running code. For WebRTC, the complexity of the system has led us to a point that we must choose between these principles. Our proposal is to choose the first, while acknowledging the second.

This would result in a request to the RFC editor to update all references to RFC 5245 in the Cluster 238 documents to instead point to RFC 8445. Documents not yet in the RFC editor queue would be updated prior to IESG review. We would further request that the RFC editor add the following text to draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview and draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep:

While this specification formally relies on [RFC8445], at the time of its publication, the majority of WebRTC implementations support the version of ICE described in [RFC5245], and use a pre-standard version of the trickle ice mechanism described in [RFCXXXX]. The use of the "ice2" attribute defined in [RFC8445] can be used to detect the version in use by a remote endpoint and to provide a smooth transition from the older specification to the newer one.
RFC 8445 would be a normative reference for both documents, while RFC 5245 would be informative.

There is one more minor complication, in that draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes (which currently points to RFC 5245) is intended to be an exhaustive list of the SDP attributes defined in the documents it lists, and RFC 8445 adds a new "ice2" attribute that was not present in RFC 5245. For this reason, we would also ask the RFC Editor to add a new row to the table in draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes section 5.12, as follows:

   +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+
   | Name              | Notes                     | Level | Mux       |
   |                   |                           |       | Category  |
   +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+
   | ice2              | Not Impacted              | S     | NORMAL    |
   |                   |                           |       |           |
   +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+

For clarity, the affected documents are as follows.

The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 prior to IESG evaluation:

  • draft-ietf-clue-datachannel
  • draft-ietf-clue-signaling
  • draft-ietf-rtcweb-security
  • draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch


The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 by the RFC Editor:

  • draft-ietf-mmusic-mux-exclusive
  • draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp
  • draft-ietf-rtcweb-alpn
  • draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel
  • draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage


The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 and have the text proposed above added to them:

  • draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep
  • draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview


The following document would be updated to reference RFC 8445 by the RFC Editor, and include a new row for "ice2" in its Section 5.12, as described above:

  • draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes


This message is cross-posted to the affected working groups. Because the issue at hand has impact across several different groups, we ask that all follow-up discussion take place on <art@ietf.org>. Thank you.

/Adam on behalf of the ART Area Directors

____
[1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C238

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XCH-RCD-019.cisco.com (xch-rcd-019.cisco.com [173.37.102.29]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w7MKrEEO008407 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 22 Aug 2018 20:53:14 GMT Received: from xch-aln-018.cisco.com (173.36.7.28) by XCH-RCD-019.cisco.com (173.37.102.29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Wed, 22 Aug 2018 15:53:13 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-018.cisco.com ([173.36.7.28]) by XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com ([173.36.7.28]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Wed, 22 Aug 2018 15:53:13 -0500 From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion CC: "clue@ietf.org" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "mmusic@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" , "bfcpbis@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Thread-Index: AQHUOkHp2qtJc/guzkqO2Y1jG5WZJaTMHj2A Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 20:53:13 +0000 Message-ID: <1362A84F-A635-4E8A-8741-B42336940180@cisco.com> References: <15d3b114-5c04-61c4-8a62-61d8a414143d@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <15d3b114-5c04-61c4-8a62-61d8a414143d@nostrum.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.e.1.180613 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.20.182.35] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1362A84FA6354E8A8741B42336940180ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.29, xch-rcd-019.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 20:53:32 -0000 --_000_1362A84FA6354E8A8741B42336940180ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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LnBocD9jaWQ9QzIzODwvYT48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1s Pg0K --_000_1362A84FA6354E8A8741B42336940180ciscocom_-- From nobody Wed Aug 22 22:15:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75D4812F18C; Wed, 22 Aug 2018 22:14:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25WVtk65yty9; Wed, 22 Aug 2018 22:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9655C127332; Wed, 22 Aug 2018 22:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id E1752DCAA62EE; Thu, 23 Aug 2018 06:14:46 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEMM402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.210) by lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.43) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.399.0; Thu, 23 Aug 2018 06:14:47 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.48]) by DGGEMM402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.210]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Thu, 23 Aug 2018 13:14:40 +0800 From: "Roni Even (A)" To: Adam Roach CC: "clue@ietf.org" , "Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion" Thread-Topic: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Thread-Index: AQHUOkHiKLXkliQTg0+3hQ2q8EkTBKTMyZyw Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 05:14:39 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8C3550@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <15d3b114-5c04-61c4-8a62-61d8a414143d@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <15d3b114-5c04-61c4-8a62-61d8a414143d@nostrum.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.202.143] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8C3550DGGEMM506MBXchina_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 05:14:55 -0000 --_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8C3550DGGEMM506MBXchina_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgQWRhbSwNCkFzIGZvciB0aGUgQ0xVRSBkb2N1bWVudHMgSSBzZWUgbm8gcHJvYmxlbSB3aXRo 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(authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w7N5RUqE090037 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 23 Aug 2018 00:27:40 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be Svantevit.roach.at To: "Roni Even (A)" Cc: "clue@ietf.org" , Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion References: <15d3b114-5c04-61c4-8a62-61d8a414143d@nostrum.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8C3550@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 00:27:25 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8C3550@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------846DC007A6FF4C78B938C64B" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 05:27:52 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------846DC007A6FF4C78B938C64B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/23/18 12:14 AM, Roni Even (A) wrote: > > > As for the CLUE documents I see no problem with changing the > reference. As can be seen bellow the references are informative and in > my personal view it does not matter if the documents will reference > RFC5245 since RFC8445 obsolete RFC5245 anyhow. > > How do you see the change to reference RFC8445 happening. Is it a note > to the RFC editor? > For both CLUE documents, this plan involves asking the authors to make the update, along with any other IETF last-call comments they receive, prior to placing them on an IESG telechat. /a --------------846DC007A6FF4C78B938C64B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 8/23/18 12:14 AM, Roni Even (A) wrote:


As for the CLUE documents I see no problem with changing the reference. As can be seen bellow the references are informative and in my personal view it does not matter if the documents will reference RFC5245 since RFC8445 obsolete RFC5245 anyhow.

How do you see the change to reference RFC8445 happening. Is it a note to the RFC editor?


For both CLUE documents, this plan involves asking the authors to make the update, along with any other IETF last-call comments they receive, prior to placing them on an IESG telechat.

/a

--------------846DC007A6FF4C78B938C64B-- From nobody Wed Aug 22 22:45:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65451130D7A; Wed, 22 Aug 2018 22:45:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T5K9oGy5JV-f; Wed, 22 Aug 2018 22:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4980912F1A6; Wed, 22 Aug 2018 22:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id F02DF211E8DBD; Thu, 23 Aug 2018 06:45:19 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEMM403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.211) by LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.399.0; Thu, 23 Aug 2018 06:45:20 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.48]) by DGGEMM403-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.211]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Thu, 23 Aug 2018 13:45:14 +0800 From: "Roni Even (A)" To: Adam Roach CC: "clue@ietf.org" , "Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion" , Christer Holmberg Thread-Topic: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Thread-Index: AQHUOkHiKLXkliQTg0+3hQ2q8EkTBKTMyZyw//9/toCAAIff8A== Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 05:45:14 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8C357F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <15d3b114-5c04-61c4-8a62-61d8a414143d@nostrum.com> 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aCBDTFVFIGRvY3VtZW50cywgdGhpcyBwbGFuIGludm9sdmVzIGFza2luZyB0aGUgYXV0aG9ycyB0 byBtYWtlIHRoZSB1cGRhdGUsIGFsb25nIHdpdGggYW55IG90aGVyIElFVEYgbGFzdC1jYWxsIGNv bW1lbnRzIHRoZXkgcmVjZWl2ZSwgcHJpb3IgdG8gcGxhY2luZyB0aGVtIG9uIGFuIElFU0cgdGVs ZWNoYXQuPG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8cD4vYTxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Jv ZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8C357FDGGEMM506MBXchina_-- From nobody Thu Aug 23 15:42:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF8D4126F72; Thu, 23 Aug 2018 15:42:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.868 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.868 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8aryejU24OkG; Thu, 23 Aug 2018 15:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E0B43128CF2; Thu, 23 Aug 2018 15:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Svantevit.roach.at (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w7NMgQN7060040 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 23 Aug 2018 17:42:27 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be Svantevit.roach.at To: "Roni Even (A)" Cc: "clue@ietf.org" , Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion , Christer Holmberg References: <15d3b114-5c04-61c4-8a62-61d8a414143d@nostrum.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8C3550@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8C357F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <2ec1349a-3523-ae02-bd23-39dd436f04b9@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 17:42:21 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8C357F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------58904B69CF496C7B4EA5668B" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 22:42:38 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------58904B69CF496C7B4EA5668B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To be clear, the datachannel document has not yet been through IESG review. Alissa, who was the responsible AD for the document during its IETF last call, indicated (in the document history): "We are holding this document before proceeding to IESG evaluation to await progress on the RTCWEB security document, which is referenced." I have seen no reason to revisit her decision. I'd prefer to avoid discussions in IESG review about outdated references, so I will request that the authors update references before the document is added to a telechat. /a On 8/23/18 12:45 AM, Roni Even (A) wrote: > > Hi Adam, > > Adding Christer here since he is the editor of the datachannel draft > > The datachannel document went through IETF last call in July 2016 on > the -13 version and -14 version is the update based on comments from > the different reviews. > > The document was parked since it was waiting for normative referenced > documents that were in progress I think that the last one is > draft-ietf-mmusic-data-channel-sdpneg that went to publication now > (BTW I volunteered to be the editor of this document to help conclude > the CLUE work) > > So if it is really important to change the reference this can be for > the RFC editor in my view > > Roni Even > > *From:*Adam Roach [mailto:adam@nostrum.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, August 23, 2018 8:27 AM > *To:* Roni Even (A) > *Cc:* clue@ietf.org; Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 > > On 8/23/18 12:14 AM, Roni Even (A) wrote: > > > > As for the CLUE documents I see no problem with changing the > reference. As can be seen bellow the references are informative > and in my personal view it does not matter if the documents will > reference RFC5245 since RFC8445 obsolete RFC5245 anyhow. > > How do you see the change to reference RFC8445 happening. Is it a > note to the RFC editor? > > For both CLUE documents, this plan involves asking the authors to make > the update, along with any other IETF last-call comments they receive, > prior to placing them on an IESG telechat. > > /a > --------------58904B69CF496C7B4EA5668B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
To be clear, the datachannel document has not yet been through IESG review. Alissa, who was the responsible AD for the document during its IETF last call, indicated (in the document history): "We are holding this document before proceeding to IESG evaluation to await progress on the RTCWEB security document, which is referenced." I have seen no reason to revisit her decision. I'd prefer to avoid discussions in IESG review about outdated references, so I will request that the authors update references before the document is added to a telechat.

/a



On 8/23/18 12:45 AM, Roni Even (A) wrote:

Hi Adam,

 

Adding Christer here since he is the editor of the datachannel draft

 

The datachannel document went through IETF last call in July 2016 on the -13 version and -14 version is the update based on comments from the different reviews.

The document was parked since it was waiting for normative referenced documents that were in progress I think that the last one is draft-ietf-mmusic-data-channel-sdpneg that went to publication now (BTW I volunteered to be the editor of this document to help conclude the CLUE work)

So if it is really important to change the reference this can be for the RFC editor in my view

 

Roni Even

 

 

From: Adam Roach [mailto:adam@nostrum.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 8:27 AM
To: Roni Even (A)
Cc: clue@ietf.org; Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion
Subject: Re: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238

 

On 8/23/18 12:14 AM, Roni Even (A) wrote:



As for the CLUE documents I see no problem with changing the reference. As can be seen bellow the references are informative and in my personal view it does not matter if the documents will reference RFC5245 since RFC8445 obsolete RFC5245 anyhow.

How do you see the change to reference RFC8445 happening. Is it a note to the RFC editor?

 

For both CLUE documents, this plan involves asking the authors to make the update, along with any other IETF last-call comments they receive, prior to placing them on an IESG telechat.

/a


--------------58904B69CF496C7B4EA5668B-- From nobody Thu Aug 23 20:47:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 157D7130DE1 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2018 20:47:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NRjtA73nNnvJ for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2018 20:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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Received: from ESESSMB502.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.120]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 9E.ED.31332.EDF7F7B5; Fri, 24 Aug 2018 05:47:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESBMB503.ericsson.se (153.88.183.170) by ESESSMB502.ericsson.se (153.88.183.163) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Fri, 24 Aug 2018 05:47:42 +0200 Received: from ESESBMB503.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.186]) by ESESBMB503.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.186]) with mapi id 15.01.1466.003; Fri, 24 Aug 2018 05:47:42 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Adam Roach , "Roni Even (A)" CC: "clue@ietf.org" , "Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion" Thread-Topic: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Thread-Index: AQHUOqBDvAOuHQatWkGDcVwGBkkAA6TMrSuAgAAE+gCAARwugIAAdkXw Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 03:47:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: <15d3b114-5c04-61c4-8a62-61d8a414143d@nostrum.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8C3550@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8C357F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <2ec1349a-3523-ae02-bd23-39dd436f04b9@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <2ec1349a-3523-ae02-bd23-39dd436f04b9@nostrum.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.153] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_d15d27ea91c6401b93169ac3a10e4ca4ericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrHIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7he69+vpog/Mb9Cz2/F3EbrHirofF /lOXmS0+HTvP4sDi0XLkLavHkiU/mTxm7XzCEsAcxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJVx4MN1poJVPYwV S5/sYWpgPNHB2MXIySEhYCLRPvEtM4gtJHCUUeLkIskuRi4g+xujxKc3ZxghnGWMEsuvvQBy ODjYBCwkuv9pgzSICHhKPNwwmwUkzCyQJPGuPxXEFBYwlFjW5gFRYSTxe/YSVgjbTeJITxeY zSKgKnF5cTfYCbwC1hKN65+yQWzawyTR0XwU7B5OAXuJP227wIoYBcQkvp9awwRiMwuIS9x6 Mp8J4n4BiSV7zjND2KISLx//Y4WwlST2HrvOAlGfLDFx6lyoZYISJ2c+YZnAKDoLyahZSMpm 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Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: clue@ietf.org Message-ID: <153508412148.12214.16202968342335599683@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 21:15:21 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [clue] I-D Action: draft-ietf-clue-datachannel-15.txt X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 04:15:22 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the ControLling mUltiple streams for tElepresence WG of the IETF. Title : CLUE Protocol data channel Author : Christer Holmberg Filename : draft-ietf-clue-datachannel-15.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2018-08-23 Abstract: This document defines how to use the WebRTC data channel mechanism in order to realize a data channel, referred to as a CLUE data channel, for transporting CLUE protocol messages between two CLUE entities. The document defines how to describe the SCTPoDTLS association used to realize the CLUE data channel using the Session Description Protocol (SDP), and defines usage of SDP-based "SCTP over DTLS" data channel negotiation mechanism for establishing a CLUE data channel. Details and procedures associated with the CLUE protocol, and the SDP Offer/Answer procedures for negotiating usage of a CLUE data channel, are outside the scope of this document. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-clue-datachannel/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-clue-datachannel-15 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-clue-datachannel-15 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-clue-datachannel-15 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Aug 23 21:17:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEFCE130EF8 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2018 21:17:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JbMk3K5WehzZ for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2018 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c1b4fb30-fe1ff700000055da-d0-5b7f86b961ea Received: from ESESSMB504.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.122]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id F9.0C.21978.9B68F7B5; Fri, 24 Aug 2018 06:16:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESBMB503.ericsson.se (153.88.183.170) by ESESSMB504.ericsson.se (153.88.183.165) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Fri, 24 Aug 2018 06:16:56 +0200 Received: from ESESBMB503.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.186]) by ESESBMB503.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.186]) with mapi id 15.01.1466.003; Fri, 24 Aug 2018 06:16:56 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Adam Roach , "Roni Even (A)" CC: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion , "clue@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Thread-Index: AQHUOqBDvAOuHQatWkGDcVwGBkkAA6TMrSuAgAAE+gCAARwugIAAdkXwgAAIlVA= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 04:16:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: 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bzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvYmxvY2txdW90ZT4NCjxwPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+ DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_a603a6b67f7447d49d44f447bd5821a2ericssoncom_-- From nobody Sat Aug 25 09:42:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86563128CB7; Sat, 25 Aug 2018 09:42:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v0G49OSGpBmm; Sat, 25 Aug 2018 09:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mork.alvestrand.no (mork.alvestrand.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:2::117]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client 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h0eDlJLB7igJ6Ks0ae2UoUNOBv2F1roQ1jZC8yMPScXygmjsoBSuTUirHatyR7AUiCHNymB+ EdhK4Vl+ZVHdCY9l269g5ocw0y6BZofHpqhE9K3RGBWQjWKTXuOk1fVjLfAum3wQqztYEhlD uKZgfEn7reDuzBq4cqzUe7CI6lZwCU7DnA0Dz2vBaqBhrZb7eKfTqmXddNm/dXmPn1nB554N fxWoxb3L8fHXwLgJiBgxLM6OYhJM51PxwW1qoQM1ax6gu+H101uEE4ZZq+s7c301HqwFwGMi SMmn1oJ7/+OquMkYHjeVAhxRE6blcRH2cmqxFSrpHsHgpXMVyWgTZRZsMmQathzCTUWKf5hC EOzwb4rp/UvU1LUHo1uPqbBafW62VB+iUaFp/zOg69Wo8/Z6urM5m+ldiWTbx+ivxKlPQDEA 332dABEBAAHCwWUEGAECAA8FAlRpbhYCGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQawFW3omifDRKhg//eHcjvxcA ENNe66f5R3ULi5pMbrHGLMGirVX9pHTRf5+5OFaGr8bwXeYkCHpptpxr2Kk/PUzpUWOL2uvL lh7QhPw3+GoEWubXOAgHiQW5iIzkA9wYw/nctZ+5veHN7InVqJ7djhtTN7K9Luj4nDR1T7Vf 61zpCKLlEW6W5MAp4slRVzRiFfaMfMYkxLm6MBxC961j8Lrqx2XNMGugaYh1QzcFYTbFmGKX 5SY4EQsETiB0PeE3IBVtXfiabrk8YX2IuL9BrEgD6GngXTd78hUMnZeqjvnS772bjRgwLCz7 Hab6hQESrFCNXfxzb39y5DLHwXtB/HruYqVD48XvPnNV0UNsWcS+7rtPFMmkd3MTvoAOWjkV zeQHpvF71IlwWginXbkf9aR/QsAbMIQDZWhsd+ma67V6g6KH41r6mNXAgK2JlA1CqgblM7iB hl01vL0V5bkbInZq2sB505Hn1DSc4NoP2WHlwe8Bm8vVG5oyfyPw9ReS9WLVY9w7fK4EKOgk VnOsIQuE0WIPT0Ak+hJ0UigOduuCX7s7NIVaOgWQe1q4Xytgj1RHjg9qlA6eQiTUrAx7Mu7s eliWCFuWsQXoaktVEDjoWVbP9dgozanL5kwWh/sJNtHVQbgu3IG4w8D3QvvOE83+jAdzgOzv pqHJkrqlWu+R9ZqBucZLqjQvQZk= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 18:42:37 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <15d3b114-5c04-61c4-8a62-61d8a414143d@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9E7BF54127F14ED93C7AED73" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 16:42:50 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9E7BF54127F14ED93C7AED73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Speaking as editor of -overview and -transport, I support this approach. (-transport already references ice-bis, now 8445). On 08/22/2018 07:58 PM, Adam Roach wrote: > Members of the ART community interested in real-time communications: > > Cluster 238 [1] is a set of inter-related documents dealing with > real-time communications. The bulk of these documents relate to > WebRTC, either directly or indirectly. They also form the > underpinnings of CLUE. As of now, there are 34 documents in the > cluster that are not yet published, with 25 of these already in the > RFC Editor's queue. The dependency graph among these documents is such > that the bulk of them can be published as soon as a specific six of > them are handed off to the RFC editor, and we expect this to happen in > the upcoming few months. > > One long-running complication for this cluster of documents is that > each of the documents were developed over the course of seven years, > in concert with implementations, while the ICE protocol itself was > undergoing significant revision. As a consequence, some documents rely > (directly or indirectly) on the older ICE specification (RFC 5245), > while some rely on the newer one (RFC 8445). In some cases, documents > refer directly to the old version and transitively to the new version. > > It is noteworthy that RFC 8445 obsoletes RFC 5245; and that the > mechanism described in RFC 8445 has some  changes that break backwards > compatibility with the mechanism defined in RFC 5245 (with such > behavioral changes controlled by an SDP attribute, allowing clients to > transition from one to the other). > > Most notably, draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep (which is the core WebRTC > protocol in the IETF) refers to directly to RFC 5245, while relying on > the behavior defined in draft-ietf-ice-trickle; > draft-ietf-ice-trickle, in turn, is based on the newer RFC 8445 > handling. JSEP's reference to RFC 5245 is a practical consideration > that acknowledges that current deployments of WebRTC implement the > older version of ICE. At the same time, these deployed implementations > use a somewhat older version of draft-ietf-ice-trickle in concert with > the older ICE implementation. > > In order to get Cluster 238 published, we need to find some way to > rationalize its references to ICE. At a basic level, the ART Area > Directors do not believe that it makes sense to publish new documents > that refer to an already obsoleted RFC. At the same time, we recognize > that there is value in our specifications being informed by running > code. For WebRTC, the complexity of the system has led us to a point > that we must choose between these principles. Our proposal is to > choose the first, while acknowledging the second. > > This would result in a request to the RFC editor to update all > references to RFC 5245 in the Cluster 238 documents to instead point > to RFC 8445. Documents not yet in the RFC editor queue would be > updated prior to IESG review. We would further request that the RFC > editor add the following text to draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview and > draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep: > >> While this specification formally relies on [RFC8445], at the time of >> its publication, the majority of WebRTC implementations support the >> version of ICE described in [RFC5245], and use a pre-standard version >> of the trickle ice mechanism described in [RFCXXXX]. The use of the >> "ice2" attribute defined in [RFC8445] can be used to detect the >> version in use by a remote endpoint and to provide a smooth >> transition from the older specification to the newer one. > RFC 8445 would be a normative reference for both documents, while RFC > 5245 would be informative. > > There is one more minor complication, in that > draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes (which currently points to RFC > 5245) is intended to be an exhaustive list of the SDP attributes > defined in the documents it lists, and RFC 8445 adds a new "ice2" > attribute that was not present in RFC 5245. For this reason, we would > also ask the RFC Editor to add a new row to the table in > draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes section 5.12, as follows: > >> +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+ >> | Name | Notes | Level | Mux | >> | | | | Category | >> +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+ >> | ice2 | Not Impacted | S | NORMAL | >> | | | | | >> +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+ > > For clarity, the affected documents are as follows. > > The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 prior > to IESG evaluation: > > * draft-ietf-clue-datachannel > * draft-ietf-clue-signaling > * draft-ietf-rtcweb-security > * draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch > > > The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 by the > RFC Editor: > > * draft-ietf-mmusic-mux-exclusive > * draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp > * draft-ietf-rtcweb-alpn > * draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel > * draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage > > > The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 and > have the text proposed above added to them: > > * draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep > * draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview > > > The following document would be updated to reference RFC 8445 by the > RFC Editor, and include a new row for "ice2" in its Section 5.12, as > described above: > > * draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes > > > This message is cross-posted to the affected working groups. Because > the issue at hand has impact across several different groups, we ask > that all follow-up discussion take place on . Thank you. > > /Adam on behalf of the ART Area Directors > > ____ > [1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C238 > > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue -- Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. --------------9E7BF54127F14ED93C7AED73 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Speaking as editor of -overview and -transport, I support this approach.

(-transport already references ice-bis, now 8445).

On 08/22/2018 07:58 PM, Adam Roach wrote:
Members of the ART community interested in real-time communications:

Cluster 238 [1] is a set of inter-related documents dealing with real-time communications. The bulk of these documents relate to WebRTC, either directly or indirectly. They also form the underpinnings of CLUE. As of now, there are 34 documents in the cluster that are not yet published, with 25 of these already in the RFC Editor's queue. The dependency graph among these documents is such that the bulk of them can be published as soon as a specific six of them are handed off to the RFC editor, and we expect this to happen in the upcoming few months.

One long-running complication for this cluster of documents is that each of the documents were developed over the course of seven years, in concert with implementations, while the ICE protocol itself was undergoing significant revision. As a consequence, some documents rely (directly or indirectly) on the older ICE specification (RFC 5245), while some rely on the newer one (RFC 8445). In some cases, documents refer directly to the old version and transitively to the new version.

It is noteworthy that RFC 8445 obsoletes RFC 5245; and that the mechanism described in RFC 8445 has some  changes that break backwards compatibility with the mechanism defined in RFC 5245 (with such behavioral changes controlled by an SDP attribute, allowing clients to transition from one to the other).

Most notably, draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep (which is the core WebRTC protocol in the IETF) refers to directly to RFC 5245, while relying on the behavior defined in draft-ietf-ice-trickle; draft-ietf-ice-trickle, in turn, is based on the newer RFC 8445 handling. JSEP's reference to RFC 5245 is a practical consideration that acknowledges that current deployments of WebRTC implement the older version of ICE. At the same time, these deployed implementations use a somewhat older version of draft-ietf-ice-trickle in concert with the older ICE implementation.

In order to get Cluster 238 published, we need to find some way to rationalize its references to ICE. At a basic level, the ART Area Directors do not believe that it makes sense to publish new documents that refer to an already obsoleted RFC. At the same time, we recognize that there is value in our specifications being informed by running code. For WebRTC, the complexity of the system has led us to a point that we must choose between these principles. Our proposal is to choose the first, while acknowledging the second.

This would result in a request to the RFC editor to update all references to RFC 5245 in the Cluster 238 documents to instead point to RFC 8445. Documents not yet in the RFC editor queue would be updated prior to IESG review. We would further request that the RFC editor add the following text to draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview and draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep:

While this specification formally relies on [RFC8445], at the time of its publication, the majority of WebRTC implementations support the version of ICE described in [RFC5245], and use a pre-standard version of the trickle ice mechanism described in [RFCXXXX]. The use of the "ice2" attribute defined in [RFC8445] can be used to detect the version in use by a remote endpoint and to provide a smooth transition from the older specification to the newer one.
RFC 8445 would be a normative reference for both documents, while RFC 5245 would be informative.

There is one more minor complication, in that draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes (which currently points to RFC 5245) is intended to be an exhaustive list of the SDP attributes defined in the documents it lists, and RFC 8445 adds a new "ice2" attribute that was not present in RFC 5245. For this reason, we would also ask the RFC Editor to add a new row to the table in draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes section 5.12, as follows:

   +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+
   | Name              | Notes                     | Level | Mux       |
   |                   |                           |       | Category  |
   +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+
   | ice2              | Not Impacted              | S     | NORMAL    |
   |                   |                           |       |           |
   +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+

For clarity, the affected documents are as follows.

The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 prior to IESG evaluation:

  • draft-ietf-clue-datachannel
  • draft-ietf-clue-signaling
  • draft-ietf-rtcweb-security
  • draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch


The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 by the RFC Editor:

  • draft-ietf-mmusic-mux-exclusive
  • draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp
  • draft-ietf-rtcweb-alpn
  • draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel
  • draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage


The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 and have the text proposed above added to them:

  • draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep
  • draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview


The following document would be updated to reference RFC 8445 by the RFC Editor, and include a new row for "ice2" in its Section 5.12, as described above:

  • draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes


This message is cross-posted to the affected working groups. Because the issue at hand has impact across several different groups, we ask that all follow-up discussion take place on <art@ietf.org>. Thank you.

/Adam on behalf of the ART Area Directors

____
[1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C238



_______________________________________________
clue mailing list
clue@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue



-- 
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.
--------------9E7BF54127F14ED93C7AED73-- From nobody Wed Aug 29 11:12:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: clue@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D6B1130E06; Wed, 29 Aug 2018 11:12:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.879 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.879 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CXkf9bv-QaSC; Wed, 29 Aug 2018 11:12:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A3E6130DFE; Wed, 29 Aug 2018 11:12:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Svantevit.roach.at (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w7TICaAY027071 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:12:37 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be Svantevit.roach.at From: Adam Roach To: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion Cc: "clue@ietf.org" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "mmusic@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" Reply-To: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion References: <15d3b114-5c04-61c4-8a62-61d8a414143d@nostrum.com> Message-ID: <0e4f9505-5d96-f0c1-afbc-f493d1097b65@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:12:31 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <15d3b114-5c04-61c4-8a62-61d8a414143d@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------84E9B8C7F63D2A840F7E6A6E" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 X-BeenThere: clue@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: CLUE - ControLling mUltiple streams for TElepresence List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 18:12:42 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------84E9B8C7F63D2A840F7E6A6E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It's been a week; so far there have been no objections to this plan, and several messages in support. I plan to consult with the other ART ADs to evaluate consensus on this proposal next week, and take appropriate action. If you have thoughts to share, please send them to the ART mailing list before September 5th. Thanks! /a On 8/22/18 12:58 PM, Adam Roach wrote: > Members of the ART community interested in real-time communications: > > Cluster 238 [1] is a set of inter-related documents dealing with > real-time communications. The bulk of these documents relate to > WebRTC, either directly or indirectly. They also form the > underpinnings of CLUE. As of now, there are 34 documents in the > cluster that are not yet published, with 25 of these already in the > RFC Editor's queue. The dependency graph among these documents is such > that the bulk of them can be published as soon as a specific six of > them are handed off to the RFC editor, and we expect this to happen in > the upcoming few months. > > One long-running complication for this cluster of documents is that > each of the documents were developed over the course of seven years, > in concert with implementations, while the ICE protocol itself was > undergoing significant revision. As a consequence, some documents rely > (directly or indirectly) on the older ICE specification (RFC 5245), > while some rely on the newer one (RFC 8445). In some cases, documents > refer directly to the old version and transitively to the new version. > > It is noteworthy that RFC 8445 obsoletes RFC 5245; and that the > mechanism described in RFC 8445 has some  changes that break backwards > compatibility with the mechanism defined in RFC 5245 (with such > behavioral changes controlled by an SDP attribute, allowing clients to > transition from one to the other). > > Most notably, draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep (which is the core WebRTC > protocol in the IETF) refers to directly to RFC 5245, while relying on > the behavior defined in draft-ietf-ice-trickle; > draft-ietf-ice-trickle, in turn, is based on the newer RFC 8445 > handling. JSEP's reference to RFC 5245 is a practical consideration > that acknowledges that current deployments of WebRTC implement the > older version of ICE. At the same time, these deployed implementations > use a somewhat older version of draft-ietf-ice-trickle in concert with > the older ICE implementation. > > In order to get Cluster 238 published, we need to find some way to > rationalize its references to ICE. At a basic level, the ART Area > Directors do not believe that it makes sense to publish new documents > that refer to an already obsoleted RFC. At the same time, we recognize > that there is value in our specifications being informed by running > code. For WebRTC, the complexity of the system has led us to a point > that we must choose between these principles. Our proposal is to > choose the first, while acknowledging the second. > > This would result in a request to the RFC editor to update all > references to RFC 5245 in the Cluster 238 documents to instead point > to RFC 8445. Documents not yet in the RFC editor queue would be > updated prior to IESG review. We would further request that the RFC > editor add the following text to draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview and > draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep: > >> While this specification formally relies on [RFC8445], at the time of >> its publication, the majority of WebRTC implementations support the >> version of ICE described in [RFC5245], and use a pre-standard version >> of the trickle ice mechanism described in [RFCXXXX]. The use of the >> "ice2" attribute defined in [RFC8445] can be used to detect the >> version in use by a remote endpoint and to provide a smooth >> transition from the older specification to the newer one. > RFC 8445 would be a normative reference for both documents, while RFC > 5245 would be informative. > > There is one more minor complication, in that > draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes (which currently points to RFC > 5245) is intended to be an exhaustive list of the SDP attributes > defined in the documents it lists, and RFC 8445 adds a new "ice2" > attribute that was not present in RFC 5245. For this reason, we would > also ask the RFC Editor to add a new row to the table in > draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes section 5.12, as follows: > >> +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+ >> | Name | Notes | Level | Mux | >> | | | | Category | >> +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+ >> | ice2 | Not Impacted | S | NORMAL | >> | | | | | >> +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+ > > For clarity, the affected documents are as follows. > > The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 prior > to IESG evaluation: > > * draft-ietf-clue-datachannel > * draft-ietf-clue-signaling > * draft-ietf-rtcweb-security > * draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch > > > The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 by the > RFC Editor: > > * draft-ietf-mmusic-mux-exclusive > * draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp > * draft-ietf-rtcweb-alpn > * draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel > * draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage > > > The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 and > have the text proposed above added to them: > > * draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep > * draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview > > > The following document would be updated to reference RFC 8445 by the > RFC Editor, and include a new row for "ice2" in its Section 5.12, as > described above: > > * draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes > > > This message is cross-posted to the affected working groups. Because > the issue at hand has impact across several different groups, we ask > that all follow-up discussion take place on . Thank you. > > /Adam on behalf of the ART Area Directors > > ____ > [1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C238 > --------------84E9B8C7F63D2A840F7E6A6E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
It's been a week; so far there have been no objections to this plan, and several messages in support. I plan to consult with the other ART ADs to evaluate consensus on this proposal next week, and take appropriate action. If you have thoughts to share, please send them to the ART mailing list before September 5th.

Thanks!

/a

On 8/22/18 12:58 PM, Adam Roach wrote:
Members of the ART community interested in real-time communications:

Cluster 238 [1] is a set of inter-related documents dealing with real-time communications. The bulk of these documents relate to WebRTC, either directly or indirectly. They also form the underpinnings of CLUE. As of now, there are 34 documents in the cluster that are not yet published, with 25 of these already in the RFC Editor's queue. The dependency graph among these documents is such that the bulk of them can be published as soon as a specific six of them are handed off to the RFC editor, and we expect this to happen in the upcoming few months.

One long-running complication for this cluster of documents is that each of the documents were developed over the course of seven years, in concert with implementations, while the ICE protocol itself was undergoing significant revision. As a consequence, some documents rely (directly or indirectly) on the older ICE specification (RFC 5245), while some rely on the newer one (RFC 8445). In some cases, documents refer directly to the old version and transitively to the new version.

It is noteworthy that RFC 8445 obsoletes RFC 5245; and that the mechanism described in RFC 8445 has some  changes that break backwards compatibility with the mechanism defined in RFC 5245 (with such behavioral changes controlled by an SDP attribute, allowing clients to transition from one to the other).

Most notably, draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep (which is the core WebRTC protocol in the IETF) refers to directly to RFC 5245, while relying on the behavior defined in draft-ietf-ice-trickle; draft-ietf-ice-trickle, in turn, is based on the newer RFC 8445 handling. JSEP's reference to RFC 5245 is a practical consideration that acknowledges that current deployments of WebRTC implement the older version of ICE. At the same time, these deployed implementations use a somewhat older version of draft-ietf-ice-trickle in concert with the older ICE implementation.

In order to get Cluster 238 published, we need to find some way to rationalize its references to ICE. At a basic level, the ART Area Directors do not believe that it makes sense to publish new documents that refer to an already obsoleted RFC. At the same time, we recognize that there is value in our specifications being informed by running code. For WebRTC, the complexity of the system has led us to a point that we must choose between these principles. Our proposal is to choose the first, while acknowledging the second.

This would result in a request to the RFC editor to update all references to RFC 5245 in the Cluster 238 documents to instead point to RFC 8445. Documents not yet in the RFC editor queue would be updated prior to IESG review. We would further request that the RFC editor add the following text to draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview and draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep:

While this specification formally relies on [RFC8445], at the time of its publication, the majority of WebRTC implementations support the version of ICE described in [RFC5245], and use a pre-standard version of the trickle ice mechanism described in [RFCXXXX]. The use of the "ice2" attribute defined in [RFC8445] can be used to detect the version in use by a remote endpoint and to provide a smooth transition from the older specification to the newer one.
RFC 8445 would be a normative reference for both documents, while RFC 5245 would be informative.

There is one more minor complication, in that draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes (which currently points to RFC 5245) is intended to be an exhaustive list of the SDP attributes defined in the documents it lists, and RFC 8445 adds a new "ice2" attribute that was not present in RFC 5245. For this reason, we would also ask the RFC Editor to add a new row to the table in draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes section 5.12, as follows:

   +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+
   | Name              | Notes                     | Level | Mux       |
   |                   |                           |       | Category  |
   +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+
   | ice2              | Not Impacted              | S     | NORMAL    |
   |                   |                           |       |           |
   +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+

For clarity, the affected documents are as follows.

The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 prior to IESG evaluation:

  • draft-ietf-clue-datachannel
  • draft-ietf-clue-signaling
  • draft-ietf-rtcweb-security
  • draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch


The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 by the RFC Editor:

  • draft-ietf-mmusic-mux-exclusive
  • draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp
  • draft-ietf-rtcweb-alpn
  • draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel
  • draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage


The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 and have the text proposed above added to them:

  • draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep
  • draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview


The following document would be updated to reference RFC 8445 by the RFC Editor, and include a new row for "ice2" in its Section 5.12, as described above:

  • draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes


This message is cross-posted to the affected working groups. Because the issue at hand has impact across several different groups, we ask that all follow-up discussion take place on <art@ietf.org>. Thank you.

/Adam on behalf of the ART Area Directors

____
[1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C238


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