From owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 7 10:35:35 2000 Received: from ns.secondary.com (ns.secondary.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA25555 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:35:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA16609 for ietf-medfree-bks; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 07:29:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from sjgw.ipo.att.com (gate.ipo.att.com [135.197.57.2]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA16605 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 07:29:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from exchsj06.ipo.att.com (exchsj06.ipo.att.com [135.197.72.26]) by sjgw.ipo.att.com (8.8.5/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA13638; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 07:29:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ugnfw (ugnfw-qfe3.ipo.att.com [135.197.40.41]) by exchsj06.ipo.att.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id GH7S2Q8Z; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 07:25:53 -0800 From: "Larry Masinter" To: Cc: , Subject: FW: Terminology, etc. Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 07:29:46 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.secondary.com id HAA16606 Sender: owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To the media feature registry working group: In your opinion, is it appropriate to register "character repertoires" (ability to render a subset of characters) as media features? ... (from another message in a different forum) ... See http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/iana/assignments/media-feature-tags Should we use Media Feature (more flexible) or Locale (no delay in registering)? I note ISO-639-2 has a language called "mul" (for multilingual), so we could rename character collections as follows (and then register as Media Features at IANA) : mul-WORLDA.charcol US-ASCII mul-WORLDB.charcol GSM 03.38, or 3G TS 23.038 ??? mul-WORLDC.charcol Latin-1 (deprecated) mul-WORLDD.charcol minimised MES-1 with Greek mul-WORLDE.charcol WGL4 (what Asian characters could be added while keeping font size 'manageable' - Hiragana, Katakana??) mul-EUROB.charcol MES-2 mul-EUROC.charcol MES-3 fixed jp-JP.charcol something like JIS 208 and some JIS 212... .... From owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 7 22:13:47 2000 Received: from ns.secondary.com (ns.secondary.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA02189 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 22:13:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA05013 for ietf-medfree-bks; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 19:00:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [133.27.194.41]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04999 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 19:00:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from enoshima (dhcp-100-224.mag.keio.ac.jp [133.27.195.224]) by sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (8.9.3/3.7W) with SMTP id MAA26995; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:01:01 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200003080301.MAA26995@sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> X-Sender: duerst@sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3-J (32) Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 11:37:58 +0900 To: "Larry Masinter" From: "Martin J. Duerst" Subject: Re: FW: Terminology, etc. Cc: , , In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Several comments: - The names choosen below, in particular 'worlda', 'worldb',..., don't seem appropriate. - Registering multilingual locales when all one wants to do is register character collections doesn't look appropriate to me. - There is a proposal on how to describe character collections, available as a W3C Note at http://www.w3.org/TR/charcol. This is NOT a W3C Recommendation, but just a private proposal by myself. But it makes sense to have descriptions available in some formally defined way. [Aaron and Toshiyuki already know that Note, I'm just mentioning it here for the others on this group]. Regards, Martin. At 07:29 00/03/07 -0800, Larry Masinter wrote: > To the media feature registry working group: > > In your opinion, is it appropriate to register "character repertoires" (ability to render a subset > of characters) as media features? > > ... (from another message in a different forum) ... > > > See http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/iana/assignments/media-feature-tags > Should we use Media Feature (more flexible) or Locale (no delay in registering)? > I note ISO-639-2 has a language called "mul" (for multilingual), so we could rename character collections as follows (and then register as Media Features at IANA) : > mul-WORLDA.charcol > US-ASCII > mul-WORLDB.charcol > GSM 03.38, or 3G TS 23.038 ??? > mul-WORLDC.charcol > Latin-1 (deprecated) > mul-WORLDD.charcol > minimised MES-1 with Greek > mul-WORLDE.charcol > WGL4 (what Asian characters could be added while keeping font size > 'manageable' - Hiragana, Katakana??) > mul-EUROB.charcol > MES-2 > mul-EUROC.charcol > MES-3 fixed > jp-JP.charcol > something like JIS 208 and some JIS 212... > > .... > > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, World Wide Web Consortium #-#-# mailto:duerst@w3.org http://www.w3.org From owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 8 06:03:57 2000 Received: from ns.secondary.com (ns.secondary.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA21477 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 06:03:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA00299 for ietf-medfree-bks; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 03:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA00287 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 03:01:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 10405 invoked from network); 8 Mar 2000 11:01:51 -0000 Received: from userfa25.uk.uudial.com (HELO GK-VAIO) (62.188.19.195) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 8 Mar 2000 11:01:51 -0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000308103632.00c35710@pop.dial.pipex.com> X-Sender: xex41@pop.dial.pipex.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 10:44:36 +0000 To: "Neystadt, John" From: Graham Klyne Subject: RE: [VPIM] Analogy to Content-Duration for Faxes Cc: conneg WG , IETF VPIM List , ietf-fax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <5B34AF33D291D311A06D0004AC1509D7C374B9@unity-mail.icomvers e.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: John, I think there's nothing wrong with a small RFC :-) has already gone forward for last call, and the IESG review is (at least) partially done. Also, there's not an obvious linkage between registration of "pages" and the "content-features:" header proposal, so I think they are better kept separate. BTW, I think Larry's proposal was always to register "pages", as you suggest, and that the reference to "UA-media" was simply a (subsidiary) possibility to qualify the kind of "page" being indicated. Regards, #g -- At 11:38 PM 3/7/00 +0200, Neystadt, John wrote: >ua-media doesn't fits well, we are not talking about user agents here. > >I think registering media feaure "pages" is a better one. > >What should be done to go forward with this. It seems to small item for an >RFC, can't we take tremp and add it into >draft-ietf-conneg-content-features.txt? > >John Neystadt >john@neystadt.org >http://www.neystadt.org/john/ > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Larry Masinter [mailto:LM@att.com] > > Sent: Thu, February 10, 2000 4:35 AM > > To: ned.freed@innosoft.com > > Cc: Neystadt, John; IETF VPIM List; ietf-fax@imc.org > > Subject: RE: [VPIM] Analogy to Content-Duration for Faxes > > > > > > > > # > Content-Features: pages=10 > > > > # > to note a 10-page document. > > > > # Might even want to have an additional attribute to say what > > sort of "page" > > # you're talking about. > > > > RFC 2534 already registers 'ua-media' tag with values such as > > 'screen-paged' > > and 'stationery' (most likely the kind of pages you'd want > > with faxes), and > > a 'paper-size' tag with additional token values. At the time > > RFC 2534 was > > written, we were focusing mainly on media features for > > recipients rather > > than > > for content; you might still want to characterize a fax > > recipient as having > > a maximum number of pages its willing to receive, though. > > > > > > > > ------------ Graham Klyne (GK@ACM.ORG) From owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 8 06:36:44 2000 Received: from ns.secondary.com (ns.secondary.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA00395 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 06:36:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA05053 for ietf-medfree-bks; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 03:34:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw2.netvision.net.il (mailgw2.netvision.net.il [194.90.1.9]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA04924; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 03:32:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from sendout.icomverse.com (Efrat-FR3.ser.netvision.net.il [199.203.174.65]) by mailgw2.netvision.net.il (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27723; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:33:33 +0200 (IST) Received: from unity-mail.icomverse.com (unity-mail.icomverse.com [89.119.41.3]) by sendout.icomverse.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA30878; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:34:00 +0200 Received: by unity-mail.icomverse.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <10G20X7Z>; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:31:40 +0200 Message-ID: <5B34AF33D291D311A06D0004AC1509D7C374C6@unity-mail.icomverse.com> From: "Neystadt, John" To: IETF VPIM List , ietf-fax@imc.org Cc: conneg WG Subject: RE: [VPIM] Analogy to Content-Duration for Faxes Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:31:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: So, what should be a way to advance with this, should I try to write a draft for this feature? John Neystadt john@neystadt.org http://www.neystadt.org/john/ > -----Original Message----- > From: Graham Klyne [mailto:GK@Dial.pipex.com] > Sent: Wed, March 08, 2000 12:45 PM > To: Neystadt, John > Cc: conneg WG; IETF VPIM List; ietf-fax@imc.org > Subject: RE: [VPIM] Analogy to Content-Duration for Faxes > > > John, > > I think there's nothing wrong with a small RFC :-) > > has already gone > forward for > last call, and the IESG review is (at least) partially done. > Also, there's > not an obvious linkage between registration of "pages" and the > "content-features:" header proposal, so I think they are > better kept separate. > > BTW, I think Larry's proposal was always to register "pages", as you > suggest, and that the reference to "UA-media" was simply a > (subsidiary) > possibility to qualify the kind of "page" being indicated. > > Regards, > > #g > -- > > > At 11:38 PM 3/7/00 +0200, Neystadt, John wrote: > >ua-media doesn't fits well, we are not talking about user > agents here. > > > >I think registering media feaure "pages" is a better one. > > > >What should be done to go forward with this. It seems to > small item for an > >RFC, can't we take tremp and add it into > >draft-ietf-conneg-content-features.txt? > > > >John Neystadt > >john@neystadt.org > >http://www.neystadt.org/john/ > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Larry Masinter [mailto:LM@att.com] > > > Sent: Thu, February 10, 2000 4:35 AM > > > To: ned.freed@innosoft.com > > > Cc: Neystadt, John; IETF VPIM List; ietf-fax@imc.org > > > Subject: RE: [VPIM] Analogy to Content-Duration for Faxes > > > > > > > > > > > > # > Content-Features: pages=10 > > > > > > # > to note a 10-page document. > > > > > > # Might even want to have an additional attribute to say what > > > sort of "page" > > > # you're talking about. > > > > > > RFC 2534 already registers 'ua-media' tag with values such as > > > 'screen-paged' > > > and 'stationery' (most likely the kind of pages you'd want > > > with faxes), and > > > a 'paper-size' tag with additional token values. At the time > > > RFC 2534 was > > > written, we were focusing mainly on media features for > > > recipients rather > > > than > > > for content; you might still want to characterize a fax > > > recipient as having > > > a maximum number of pages its willing to receive, though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ > Graham Klyne > (GK@ACM.ORG) > > From owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 8 08:00:50 2000 Received: from ns.secondary.com (ns.secondary.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA26792 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:00:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA09544 for ietf-medfree-bks; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 04:58:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from jess.bfs.phone.com (mail-bfs.apion-tss.com [212.250.162.7]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA09539 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 04:58:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mirage.bfs.phone.com ([10.20.10.116] helo=corp.phone.com) by jess.bfs.phone.com with esmtp (Exim 3.02 #2) id 12Sg1Y-0007PC-00; Wed, 08 Mar 2000 12:57:12 +0000 Message-ID: <38C64E83.B32DF979@corp.phone.com> Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 12:58:44 +0000 From: Aaron Irvine Reply-To: a.irvine@bfs.phone.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,fr,eo MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Martin J. Duerst" CC: Larry Masinter , ietf-medfree@imc.org, Toshiyuki.Urabe@nokia.com, everson@egt.ie Subject: Re: FW: Terminology, etc. References: <200003080301.MAA26995@sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Martin J. Duerst" wrote: > Several comments: > > - The names choosen below, in particular 'worlda', 'worldb',..., > don't seem appropriate. Maybe CORE or BASIC would be clearer. > > > - Registering multilingual locales when all one wants to do is > register character collections doesn't look appropriate to me. > Feature tag name ---------------- output-character-repertoire Comment ---------- Describes what glyphs are present in a font (for example of mobile phone) Legal values ------------ well known values: US-ASCII GSM ISO-8859-1 MES-1 MES-2 MES-3-fixed WGL4 JIS208 or any URI to a character collection, for example: http://www.wapforum.org/I18N/core-1.charcol http://www.wapforum.org/I18N/jp-jp-1.charcol (but should values also have versions/dates) (I keep thinking - does the Unicode Consortium already have names for character repertoires?) Aaron -- refs. http://www.w3.org/TR/charcol http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/iana/assignments/media-feature-tags ----------------------------------------------------- Aaron Irvine mailto:airvine@corp.phone.com ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 8 10:21:53 2000 Received: from ns.secondary.com (ns.secondary.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA16311 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:21:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA13621 for ietf-medfree-bks; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 07:16:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from hose.pipex.net (hose.news.pipex.net [158.43.128.58]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA13502; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 07:14:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from GK-VAIO (userah85.uk.uudial.com [62.188.133.16]) by hose.pipex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 674F7461A; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 15:15:30 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000308121547.00c0c810@pop.dial.pipex.com> X-Sender: xex41@pop.dial.pipex.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 12:30:09 +0000 To: "Neystadt, John" From: Graham Klyne Subject: RE: [VPIM] Analogy to Content-Duration for Faxes Cc: IETF VPIM List , ietf-fax@imc.org, conneg WG In-Reply-To: <5B34AF33D291D311A06D0004AC1509D7C374C6@unity-mail.icomvers e.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: John, Writing a draft sounds good to me. Submitting a draft is usually a good step to getting an idea considered seriously. An example whose procedural model you might wish to follow is the charset/language feature registration proposal written by Paul Hoffman. This was circulated and reviewed within and outside the conneg group, and has since been IETF-last-called as a private submission. There's a mailing list for review of new feature registrations (noted in RFC 2506). It would probably be sensible to at least notify the conneg list of any proposal you make, since some interested parties are here. But (beyond some initial registrations) it is not the purpose of the conneg WG to approve all new feature registrations. In your case (assuming VPIM has WG status), you may wish to present and progress it as a VPIM work item (with the chair's concurrence, of course). There might be a case for making it a fax WG item. BTW, as I understand it, an IETF-tree feature registration doesn't necessarily need to be standards track (though I think at least informational RFC publication is required). But, if you want to reference the feature normatively from another standards track specification, then I think it would need to be standards track. #g -- At 01:31 PM 3/8/00 +0200, Neystadt, John wrote: >So, what should be a way to advance with this, should I try to write a draft >for this feature? > >John Neystadt >john@neystadt.org >http://www.neystadt.org/john/ > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Graham Klyne [mailto:GK@Dial.pipex.com] > > Sent: Wed, March 08, 2000 12:45 PM > > To: Neystadt, John > > Cc: conneg WG; IETF VPIM List; ietf-fax@imc.org > > Subject: RE: [VPIM] Analogy to Content-Duration for Faxes > > > > > > John, > > > > I think there's nothing wrong with a small RFC :-) > > > > has already gone > > forward for > > last call, and the IESG review is (at least) partially done. > > Also, there's > > not an obvious linkage between registration of "pages" and the > > "content-features:" header proposal, so I think they are > > better kept separate. > > > > BTW, I think Larry's proposal was always to register "pages", as you > > suggest, and that the reference to "UA-media" was simply a > > (subsidiary) > > possibility to qualify the kind of "page" being indicated. > > > > Regards, > > > > #g > > -- > > > > > > At 11:38 PM 3/7/00 +0200, Neystadt, John wrote: > > >ua-media doesn't fits well, we are not talking about user > > agents here. > > > > > >I think registering media feaure "pages" is a better one. > > > > > >What should be done to go forward with this. It seems to > > small item for an > > >RFC, can't we take tremp and add it into > > >draft-ietf-conneg-content-features.txt? > > > > > >John Neystadt > > >john@neystadt.org > > >http://www.neystadt.org/john/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Larry Masinter [mailto:LM@att.com] > > > > Sent: Thu, February 10, 2000 4:35 AM > > > > To: ned.freed@innosoft.com > > > > Cc: Neystadt, John; IETF VPIM List; ietf-fax@imc.org > > > > Subject: RE: [VPIM] Analogy to Content-Duration for Faxes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > # > Content-Features: pages=10 > > > > > > > > # > to note a 10-page document. > > > > > > > > # Might even want to have an additional attribute to say what > > > > sort of "page" > > > > # you're talking about. > > > > > > > > RFC 2534 already registers 'ua-media' tag with values such as > > > > 'screen-paged' > > > > and 'stationery' (most likely the kind of pages you'd want > > > > with faxes), and > > > > a 'paper-size' tag with additional token values. At the time > > > > RFC 2534 was > > > > written, we were focusing mainly on media features for > > > > recipients rather > > > > than > > > > for content; you might still want to characterize a fax > > > > recipient as having > > > > a maximum number of pages its willing to receive, though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ > > Graham Klyne > > (GK@ACM.ORG) > > > > ------------ Graham Klyne (GK@ACM.ORG) From owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 8 16:16:50 2000 Received: from ns.secondary.com (ns.secondary.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA09608 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:16:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA19170 for ietf-medfree-bks; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:10:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from kiwi.equinix.com (kiwi.equinix.com [207.20.85.65]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19166; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:10:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from hardie@localhost) by kiwi.equinix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA26200; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:11:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003082111.NAA26200@kiwi.equinix.com> Subject: Re: [VPIM] Analogy to Content-Duration for Faxes To: John_Neystadt@icomverse.com (Neystadt, John) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:11:12 -0800 (PST) Cc: vpim@lists.neystadt.org (IETF VPIM List), ietf-fax@imc.org, ietf-medfree@imc.org (conneg WG) In-Reply-To: <5B34AF33D291D311A06D0004AC1509D7C374C6@unity-mail.icomverse.com> from "Neystadt, John" at Mar 08, 2000 01:31:36 PM From: hardie@equinix.com Reply-to: hardie@equinix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, Writing a draft for the feature is the correct next step for a feature to be considered in the unfaceted IETF registration tree. Please cc: the conneg working group when the internet drafts editor issues it, but do not request it be issued as a working document of the conneg group. The area directors do not wish the conneg group to become a permanent working group for features; they prefer that features, like MIBs, be definted by the groups which need them. If you have further questions on the administratrivia, please let me know. regards, Ted Hardie chair, conneg > > So, what should be a way to advance with this, should I try to write a draft > for this feature? > > John Neystadt > john@neystadt.org > http://www.neystadt.org/john/ > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Graham Klyne [mailto:GK@Dial.pipex.com] > > Sent: Wed, March 08, 2000 12:45 PM > > To: Neystadt, John > > Cc: conneg WG; IETF VPIM List; ietf-fax@imc.org > > Subject: RE: [VPIM] Analogy to Content-Duration for Faxes > > > > > > John, > > > > I think there's nothing wrong with a small RFC :-) > > > > has already gone > > forward for > > last call, and the IESG review is (at least) partially done. > > Also, there's > > not an obvious linkage between registration of "pages" and the > > "content-features:" header proposal, so I think they are > > better kept separate. > > > > BTW, I think Larry's proposal was always to register "pages", as you > > suggest, and that the reference to "UA-media" was simply a > > (subsidiary) > > possibility to qualify the kind of "page" being indicated. > > > > Regards, > > > > #g > > -- > > > > > > At 11:38 PM 3/7/00 +0200, Neystadt, John wrote: > > >ua-media doesn't fits well, we are not talking about user > > agents here. > > > > > >I think registering media feaure "pages" is a better one. > > > > > >What should be done to go forward with this. It seems to > > small item for an > > >RFC, can't we take tremp and add it into > > >draft-ietf-conneg-content-features.txt? > > > > > >John Neystadt > > >john@neystadt.org > > >http://www.neystadt.org/john/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Larry Masinter [mailto:LM@att.com] > > > > Sent: Thu, February 10, 2000 4:35 AM > > > > To: ned.freed@innosoft.com > > > > Cc: Neystadt, John; IETF VPIM List; ietf-fax@imc.org > > > > Subject: RE: [VPIM] Analogy to Content-Duration for Faxes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > # > Content-Features: pages=10 > > > > > > > > # > to note a 10-page document. > > > > > > > > # Might even want to have an additional attribute to say what > > > > sort of "page" > > > > # you're talking about. > > > > > > > > RFC 2534 already registers 'ua-media' tag with values such as > > > > 'screen-paged' > > > > and 'stationery' (most likely the kind of pages you'd want > > > > with faxes), and > > > > a 'paper-size' tag with additional token values. At the time > > > > RFC 2534 was > > > > written, we were focusing mainly on media features for > > > > recipients rather > > > > than > > > > for content; you might still want to characterize a fax > > > > recipient as having > > > > a maximum number of pages its willing to receive, though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ > > Graham Klyne > > (GK@ACM.ORG) > > > > > From owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 8 16:18:50 2000 Received: from ns.secondary.com (ns.secondary.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA10258 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:18:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA19279 for ietf-medfree-bks; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:16:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from kiwi.equinix.com (kiwi.equinix.com [207.20.85.65]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19275 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:16:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from hardie@localhost) by kiwi.equinix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA26226; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:16:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003082116.NAA26226@kiwi.equinix.com> Subject: Re: FW: Terminology, etc. To: a.irvine@bfs.phone.com Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:16:08 -0800 (PST) Cc: duerst@w3.org (Martin J. Duerst), LM@att.com (Larry Masinter), ietf-medfree@imc.org, Toshiyuki.Urabe@nokia.com, everson@egt.ie In-Reply-To: <38C64E83.B32DF979@corp.phone.com> from "Aaron Irvine" at Mar 08, 2000 12:58:44 PM From: hardie@equinix.com Reply-to: hardie@equinix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do you want the character repetoire feature to reference the glyphs available in a font, or the subset of characters available for a particular charset? Also, registered features are typed and mixing tokens and URIs would create some parsing problems. I would recommend using tokens if at all possible; else you will end up using strings and have to deal with the string matching problems. regards, Ted Hardie > > > > "Martin J. Duerst" wrote: > > > Several comments: > > > > - The names choosen below, in particular 'worlda', 'worldb',..., > > don't seem appropriate. > > Maybe CORE or BASIC would be clearer. > > > > > > > - Registering multilingual locales when all one wants to do is > > register character collections doesn't look appropriate to me. > > > > Feature tag name > ---------------- > output-character-repertoire > > Comment > ---------- > Describes what glyphs are present in a font (for example of mobile phone) > > Legal values > ------------ > well known values: > US-ASCII > GSM > ISO-8859-1 > MES-1 > MES-2 > MES-3-fixed > WGL4 > JIS208 > or any URI to a character collection, for example: > http://www.wapforum.org/I18N/core-1.charcol > http://www.wapforum.org/I18N/jp-jp-1.charcol > > (but should values also have versions/dates) > > > (I keep thinking - does the Unicode Consortium already have names for character repertoires?) > > Aaron > > -- > > refs. > http://www.w3.org/TR/charcol > http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/iana/assignments/media-feature-tags > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Aaron Irvine > mailto:airvine@corp.phone.com > ----------------------------------------------------- > > From owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 9 01:43:51 2000 Received: from ns.secondary.com (ns.secondary.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA27744 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 01:43:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA12856 for ietf-medfree-bks; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:34:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from sjgw.ipo.att.com (gate.ipo.att.com [135.197.57.2]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA12852 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:34:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from exchsj06.ipo.att.com (exchsj06.ipo.att.com [135.197.72.26]) by sjgw.ipo.att.com (8.8.5/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA12621; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:33:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from ugnfw (ugnfw-qfe3.ipo.att.com [135.197.40.41]) by exchsj06.ipo.att.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id GH7S29ZP; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:29:55 -0800 From: "Larry Masinter" To: , "Martin J. Duerst" Cc: , , Subject: RE: FW: Terminology, etc. Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:33:57 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <38C64E83.B32DF979@corp.phone.com> Sender: owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Feature tag name > ---------------- > output-character-repertoire char-repertoire? > Comment > ---------- > Describes what glyphs are present in a font (for example of mobile phone) Well, and which other control characters are renderable; for example, space & tab, but not other EOL characters. > Legal values > ------------ > well known values: > US-ASCII It's not clear that there's much value in using something that corresponds to "every character in a charset". > GSM > ISO-8859-1 > MES-1 > MES-2 > MES-3-fixed > WGL4 > JIS208 Where are these defined such that they are "well known"? > or any URI to a character collection, for example: > http://www.wapforum.org/I18N/core-1.charcol > http://www.wapforum.org/I18N/jp-jp-1.charcol The only problem with this is that there is no way to determine inclusion. For example, the name of "Latin 1 with Euro symbol" would be different than the name of "Latin 1 without Euro symbol", even though someone capable of rendering the former would be able to render the latter. Of course, no one is every going to ever do anything like adding a Euro symbol again, so we don't have to worry about problems like this, right? Larry (sarcastic) -- http://larry.masinter.net From owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 9 05:19:11 2000 Received: from ns.secondary.com (ns.secondary.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA04748 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 05:19:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA20950 for ietf-medfree-bks; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 02:14:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from jess.bfs.phone.com (mail-bfs.apion-tss.com [212.250.162.7]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA20944 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 02:14:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mirage.bfs.phone.com ([10.20.10.116] helo=corp.phone.com) by jess.bfs.phone.com with esmtp (Exim 3.02 #2) id 12SzsT-0002ou-00; Thu, 09 Mar 2000 10:09:09 +0000 Message-ID: <38C778A0.94DB54F6@corp.phone.com> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 10:10:40 +0000 From: Aaron Irvine Reply-To: a.irvine@bfs.phone.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,fr,eo MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hardie@equinix.com CC: a.irvine@bfs.phone.com, "Martin J. Duerst" , Larry Masinter , ietf-medfree@imc.org, Toshiyuki.Urabe@nokia.com, everson@egt.ie Subject: Re: FW: Terminology, etc. References: <200003082116.NAA26226@kiwi.equinix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hardie@equinix.com wrote: > Do you want the character repetoire feature to reference the glyphs > available in a font, or the subset of characters available for a > particular charset? Glyphs available in a font. > > > Also, registered features are typed and mixing tokens and URIs would > create some parsing problems. I would recommend using tokens if at > all possible; else you will end up using strings and have to deal with > the string matching problems. Okay thanks. > > regards, > Ted Hardie > > -- ----------------------------------------------------- Aaron Irvine mailto:airvine@corp.phone.com ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 9 11:53:09 2000 Received: from ns.secondary.com (ns.secondary.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA06150 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:53:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA05164 for ietf-medfree-bks; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 08:48:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from jess.bfs.phone.com (mail-bfs.apion-tss.com [212.250.162.7]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05160 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 08:48:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mirage.bfs.phone.com ([10.20.10.116] helo=corp.phone.com) by jess.bfs.phone.com with esmtp (Exim 3.02 #2) id 12T65d-0004oK-00; Thu, 09 Mar 2000 16:47:09 +0000 Message-ID: <38C7D5E8.7F7F04A5@corp.phone.com> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 16:48:40 +0000 From: Aaron Irvine Reply-To: a.irvine@bfs.phone.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,fr,eo MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Masinter CC: "Martin J. Duerst" , ietf-medfree@imc.org, Toshiyuki.Urabe@nokia.com, everson@egt.ie Subject: Re: FW: Terminology, etc. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Larry Masinter wrote: > > Feature tag name > > ---------------- > > output-character-repertoire > > char-repertoire? We may have input-character-repertoire to describe device input capabilities. > > > > Comment > > ---------- > > Describes what glyphs are present in a font (for example of mobile phone) > > Well, and which other control characters are renderable; for > example, space & tab, but not other EOL characters. Okay. > > > > > Legal values > > ------------ > > well known values: > > US-ASCII > > It's not clear that there's much value in using something > that corresponds to "every character in a charset". Phones will understand UTF-8, but may only have glyphs from Latin-1 (plus euro say) :-( > > > > GSM > > ISO-8859-1 > > MES-1 > > MES-2 > > MES-3-fixed > > WGL4 > > JIS208 > > Where are these defined such that they are "well known"? Well, at the standards bodies ETSI, CEN, ISO, etc. (For MES see www.egt.ie) WGL4 is well known in the sense that lots of Windows machine have it already. (For WGL4 see microsoft.com) I had hoped unicode.org would have a page pointing to all these. Maybe I just haven't found it yet - anyone here from the Unicode Consortium? > > > > or any URI to a character collection, for example: > > http://www.wapforum.org/I18N/core-1.charcol > > http://www.wapforum.org/I18N/jp-jp-1.charcol > > The only problem with this is that there is no way to determine > inclusion. For example, the name of "Latin 1 with Euro symbol" The higher level (User Agent Profile for WAP phones) can group character collections. For example in Japan, typical might be: jis208 added to mes2. However, output-character-repertoire would indicate that *at least* these glyphs are available. > > would be different than the name of "Latin 1 without Euro symbol", > even though someone capable of rendering the former would be able > to render the latter. > > Of course, no one is every going to ever do anything like adding > a Euro symbol again, so we don't have to worry about problems like > this, right? Again, output-character-repertoire would indicate that *at least* these glyphs are available. regards, Aaron. -- ----------------------------------------------------- Aaron Irvine mailto:airvine@corp.phone.com ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 9 22:07:48 2000 Received: from ns.secondary.com (ns.secondary.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11076 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 22:07:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA17848 for ietf-medfree-bks; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 19:02:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp [133.27.194.41]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17843 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 19:02:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from enoshima (ppp0ppp11.sfc.keio.ac.jp [133.27.13.32]) by sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp (8.9.3/3.7W) with SMTP id MAA08437; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:02:28 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200003100302.MAA08437@sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp> X-Sender: duerst@sh.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3-J (32) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:31:40 +0900 To: a.irvine@bfs.phone.com From: "Martin J. Duerst" Subject: Re: FW: Terminology, etc. Cc: hardie@equinix.com, a.irvine@bfs.phone.com, Larry Masinter , ietf-medfree@imc.org, Toshiyuki.Urabe@nokia.com, everson@egt.ie In-Reply-To: <38C778A0.94DB54F6@corp.phone.com> References: <200003082116.NAA26226@kiwi.equinix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: At 10:10 00/03/09 +0000, Aaron Irvine wrote: > > > hardie@equinix.com wrote: > > > Do you want the character repetoire feature to reference the glyphs > > available in a font, or the subset of characters available for a > > particular charset? > > Glyphs available in a font. Please be VERY careful here! The collections you define are collections of characters. Characters and glyphs are not the same. Not much of a difference for Latin, but a huge difference for Arabic and for Indic scripts. I suggest you have a look at the CSS2 spec, at the description of the unicode-range property, and copy the language that deals with this problem from there. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, World Wide Web Consortium #-#-# mailto:duerst@w3.org http://www.w3.org From owner-ietf-medfree@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 13 16:34:43 2000 Received: from ns.secondary.com (ns.secondary.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA13669 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:34:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA24728 for ietf-medfree-bks; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:29:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.tohno-pre.co.jp (root@rt-tonopre.echna.ne.jp [210.175.54.61]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24723 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:29:00 -0800 (PST) From: ben2@mail.hypermart.net Received: from localhost ([216.24.27.204]) by mail.tohno-pre.co.jp (8.7.6/3.4W4) with SMTP id GAA09730; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 06:29:16 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200003132129.GAA09730@mail.tohno-pre.co.jp> X-Accept-Language: en MessageID: Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:40:03 Subject: Email Advertising Special -- Ends Tuesday! 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Submitted by Ted Hardie, Chair Reported by Geoff Horne The group met Monday, March 27, 2000 from 7:30 to 9:30. This meeting should be the last meeting before the group closes down. CONNEG has only one milestone item to complete (short form representation of feature predicates); once it has completed that item, it will close. The group first reviewed related work: draft-hoffman-char-lang-media-02.txt (last call requested and expired) draft-itef-fax-content-negotiation-01.txt (in early stages of completion) draft-itef-rescap-proto-format-00.txt (may carry conneg data, but no requirements) w3c CCPP (working on RDF-based system for capabiliti negotiation) WAP UAPROF (input into CCPP and a format for client capability information within WAP) Graham Klyne then reviewed comments from the IESG on the type feature and the content-features header proposals. There were no objections to the clarifications proposed. Only one substantive change is involved: where the type draft currently strongly discourages using parameters to MIME content-types listed in a type header, they now MUST NOT be included. Other changes to the draft included improved examples, which will be submitted in the revised draft to the IESG Ned Freed pointed out that it would be useful to have a content type for media features, and he agree to write the document registering the type. He set a goal of March 31st, 2000 for the registration. The group then reviewed the goals of the short form predicate proposals: 1) Do no harm. The current system works, but is chattier than it could be; this work is an optimizaiton and should be considered in that light. 2) Provide a method for using a short form to replace a number of features which occur in several alternate predicates. 3) Provide a short method for referencing a common feature grouping where there is a restricted set of such groupings such as occurs in the fax case. 4) Provide a common reference method for the short forms of feature predicates and the other feature types or values. This implies standardization on URIs, because of the u. features. The group first discussed the common reference method issue and agreed that a URN-based reference for the registered features would be valuable. The group also agreed that this would be best accomplished in an IANA-wide registry and the chair agreed to discuss the matter with Michael Mealing and Leslie Daigle of the URN working group. [This discussion occurred later during the week and Michael Mealing agreed to write the documents necessary for creating an IANA URN name space). The group then moved into a discussion of how to handle the short form issue for feature predicates. A lively debate ensued, with three examples from Graham Klyne providing the focus for several use cases. There was considerable confusion in the group present on the distinction between two different cases in which URLs figured as part of the auxillary predicate. During this discussion the document authors disagreed on the need for dereferencing in one of the cases, and one of the document authors withdrew support for cases in which dereferencing is necessary because the operational characteristics of that case were likely to be sub-optimal. After a discussion period did not produce agreement among the group, the chair asked the document authors to take the in-line method upon which the group agreeed and seperate it into a different document. That document will be advanced to the IESG as a candidate for proposed standard. The document authors will revise the other two methods within a new document. The current plan would be to submit that work as an individual submission either at a later time or for experimental status now. Graham agreed to have the seperated draft to the working group for review by April 10, 2000 with a goal of working group review complete by April 30, 2000. 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