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From: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
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Subject: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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There have been no messages for a few days; maybe we are done. Mike =
wants something about a JWK mapping, but I don't see any other support =
for it.

Oh, and you need to change "March" to "April" below because we already =
ran through that...

Time to submit it to Kathleen?

--Paul Hoffman

> On Mar 29, 2015, at 8:11 AM, Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Thanks for the input.
>=20
> Based on the discussion, now the draft charter 2015-03-29 is:
>=20
> # CBOR Object Signing and Encryption (COSE)
>=20
> ## Charter for Working Group
>=20
> Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise
> binary format for the serialization of data structured to an extended
> version of the JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR was to make
> this data model more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained
> node networks (RFC 7228).
>=20
> The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations
> for message authentication (MACs), encryption, and digital signatures,
> using JSON representation. This working group will reuse the work
> done by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of CBOR. This will rely
> on the JOSE registries, which, where this provides additional
> efficiency, will be expanded with additional information.
>=20
> The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from
> or to JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compabitility
> which will enable some simplification in the adaptation process.
>=20
> The WG will have two deliverables:
> - a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
> formats from JOSE, expressed in CBOR;
> - registration for algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate
> for constrained environments.
>=20
> The Working Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for its =
work,
> but does not intend to publish this as an RFC.
>=20
> ## Milestones
>=20
> * March 2015: Submit COSE specification as a WG item
>=20
> * April 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as a WG =
item
>=20
> * June 2015: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for publication as
> a Proposed Standard
>=20
> * July 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to the
> IESG, for publication as a Proposed Standard
>=20
> I will put the draft charter to a wiki page, so we can track changes =
from that.


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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 4/1/15 3:17 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote:
> There have been no messages for a few days; maybe we are done. Mike
> wants something about a JWK mapping, but I don't see any other
> support for it.
> 

What I saw is Mike effectively asking "what about JWK?" and Carsten
replying "It was implied".  I do think it is necessary to have the
correct CBOR representation of keys.  I also think the mapping is
fairly trivial -- where the value was base64url, it's now bstr.

To accomplish that, I suggest changing the second paragraph to include
mention of "cryptographic keys":

- -----NEW TEXT-----
The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations
for cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption,
and digital signatures, using JSON representation. This working group
will reuse the work done by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of
CBOR. This will rely on the JOSE registries, which, where this
provides additional efficiency, will be expanded with additional
information.
- -----NEW TEXT-----

Otherwise I think it looks good, and is ready to submit.


- -- 
- - m&m

Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com >
Cisco Systems, Inc.

> 
>> On Mar 29, 2015, at 8:11 AM, Kepeng Li
>> <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks for the input.
>> 
>> Based on the discussion, now the draft charter 2015-03-29 is:
>> 
>> # CBOR Object Signing and Encryption (COSE)
>> 
>> ## Charter for Working Group
>> 
>> Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a
>> concise binary format for the serialization of data structured to
>> an extended version of the JSON data model. One motivation for
>> CBOR was to make this data model more amenable to constrained
>> nodes and constrained node networks (RFC 7228).
>> 
>> The JOSE working group recently completed producing
>> representations for message authentication (MACs), encryption,
>> and digital signatures, using JSON representation. This working
>> group will reuse the work done by JOSE, adapting it to the
>> capabilities of CBOR. This will rely on the JOSE registries,
>> which, where this provides additional efficiency, will be
>> expanded with additional information.
>> 
>> The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible
>> from or to JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit
>> compabitility which will enable some simplification in the
>> adaptation process.
>> 
>> The WG will have two deliverables: - a standards-track
>> specification covering the same cryptographic formats from JOSE,
>> expressed in CBOR; - registration for algorithms (such as
>> AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate for constrained environments.
>> 
>> The Working Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for
>> its work, but does not intend to publish this as an RFC.
>> 
>> ## Milestones
>> 
>> * March 2015: Submit COSE specification as a WG item
>> 
>> * April 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as a
>> WG item
>> 
>> * June 2015: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for
>> publication as a Proposed Standard
>> 
>> * July 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to
>> the IESG, for publication as a Proposed Standard
>> 
>> I will put the draft charter to a wiki page, so we can track
>> changes from that.
> 
> _______________________________________________ Cose mailing list 
> Cose@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> 

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Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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Because things are getting confusing with all that mail back and forth,
I have tried to document the progress of the draft charter at

https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md

Yes, I also think it is time to submit this to Kathleen.

On a separate note, I have also started to collect use case information
(read: put GÃ¶ran's input into a markdown file).  Enjoy (and contribute) at:

https://github.com/cose-spec/use-cases/blob/master/use-cases.md

GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten

[No April Fool jokes were harmed in compositing this message.]


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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 4/1/15 3:43 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> Because things are getting confusing with all that mail back and
> forth, I have tried to document the progress of the draft charter
> at
> 
> https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
>
> 
Thanks for gathering it together, Carsten.

> Yes, I also think it is time to submit this to Kathleen.
> 
> On a separate note, I have also started to collect use case
> information (read: put GÃ¶ran's input into a markdown file).  Enjoy
> (and contribute) at:
> 
> https://github.com/cose-spec/use-cases/blob/master/use-cases.md
> 

I believe Paul said this before -- I don't think it's necessary to
formally publish a use case document.  I'm fine having something less
malleable (and more trackable) than a Wiki page, but I don't think
it's necessary to actual publish an I-D, let alone an RFC.


- -- 
- - m&m

Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com >
Cisco Systems, Inc.
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âŒ˜ Matt Miller wrote:
> I believe Paul said this before -- I don't think it's necessary to
> formally publish a use case document.  I'm fine having something less
> malleable (and more trackable) than a Wiki page, but I don't think
> it's necessary to actual publish an I-D, let alone an RFC.

Indeed -- that's why it's just a markdown file.

I'm much more interested in collecting input here than in polishing that
input into a freestanding document.
(Of course, if there is some confusing wording, we still may want to fix
it so we all know what the input was.)

I hope we can get other input.  (Unfortunately, not everybody is at
liberty to discuss every use case -- I know about a nice one from the
transportation world that I can't talk about right now.)

GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten


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>I have tried to document the progress of the draft charter at=0A>https://gith=
ub.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md=0AThank you Carsten, =
very helpful.=0A>Yes, I also think it is time to submit this to Kathleen.=0AFi=
ne with me.=0A@Karen, Mike, Jim, Goeran and others, what do you think?=0AThank=
s.=0AKind Regards=0A=0AKpeng=0A-----------------------------------------------=
-------------------=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9ACarsten Bormann<cabo@tz=
i.org>=E6=97=A5=E3=80=80=E6=9C=9F=EF=BC=9A2015=E5=B9=B404=E6=9C=8802=E6=97=A5 =
05:43:31=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9APaul Hoffman<paul.hoffman@vpnc.org=
>=E6=8A=84=E3=80=80=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9Acose@ietf.org<cose@ietf.org>=E4=B8=BB=E3=80=
=80=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9ARe: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?Because thing=
s are getting confusing with all that mail back and forth,=0AI have tried to d=
ocument the progress of the draft charter at=0A=0Ahttps://github.com/cose-spec=
/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md=0A=0AYes, I also think it is time to =
submit this to Kathleen.=0A=0AOn a separate note, I have also started to colle=
ct use case information=0A(read: put G=C3=B6ran's input into a markdown file).=
  Enjoy (and contribute) at:=0A=0Ahttps://github.com/cose-spec/use-cases/blob/=
master/use-cases.md=0A=0AGr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten=0A=0A[No April Fool jokes we=
re harmed in compositing this message.]=0A=0A_________________________________=
______________=0ACose mailing list=0ACose@ietf.org=0Ahttps://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/cose=0A=0A
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<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt;I have tried to document the progress of the draft charter =
at</p>=0A<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt;https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/maste=
r/draft-charter.md</p>=0A<p dir=3D"ltr">Thank you Carsten, very helpful.</p>=0A=
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt;Yes, I also think it is time to submit this to Kathleen.</p=
>=0A<p dir=3D"ltr">Fine with me.</p>=0A<p dir=3D"ltr">@Karen, Mike, Jim, Goera=
n and others, what do you think?</p>=0A<p dir=3D"ltr">Thanks.</p>=0A<p dir=3D"=
ltr">Kind Regards<br>=0AKpeng</p>=0A<blockquote>------------------------------=
------------------------------------<br />=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A=
Carsten Bormann&lt;cabo@tzi.org&gt;<br />=E6=97=A5=E3=80=80=E6=9C=9F=EF=BC=9A2=
015=E5=B9=B404=E6=9C=8802=E6=97=A5 05:43:31<br />=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=
=BC=9APaul Hoffman&lt;paul.hoffman@vpnc.org&gt;<br />=E6=8A=84=E3=80=80=E9=80=81=
=EF=BC=9Acose@ietf.org&lt;cose@ietf.org&gt;<br />=E4=B8=BB=E3=80=80=E9=A2=98=EF=
=BC=9ARe: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?<br /><br />Because things a=
re getting confusing with all that mail back and forth,<br>I have tried to doc=
ument the progress of the draft charter at<br><br>https://github.com/cose-spec=
/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md<br><br>Yes, I also think it is time t=
o submit this to Kathleen.<br><br>On a separate note, I have also started to c=
ollect use case information<br>(read: put G&ouml;ran's input into a markdown f=
ile).  Enjoy (and contribute) at:<br><br>https://github.com/cose-spec/use-case=
s/blob/master/use-cases.md<br><br>Gr&uuml;&szlig;e, Carsten<br><br>[No April F=
ool jokes were harmed in compositing this message.]<br><br>___________________=
____________________________<br>Cose mailing list<br>Cose@ietf.org<br>https://=
www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose<br><br></blockquote>
------=ALIBOUNDARY_18580_49fe3940_551cc1f3_1a941--


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From nobody Thu Apr  2 02:19:34 2015
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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 10:19:24 +0100
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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Hiya,

I was chatting with Kathleen about this and I have a couple
of questions/concerns. Apologies for not being at the JOSE
session in Dallas to ask 'em at the mic, but I had a conflict.
Anyway, Kathleen suggested I ask 'em now rather than when we
get the charter for balloting so here goes....

1) Why is this different from BEEP? BEEP had a lot of backing
from some core/key IETFers, and consumed a lot of effort for
them but also for others who (for a short while) got dragged
into using that day's fashion item. Turned out all that effort
was wasted as BEEP went nowhere. I'm a bit concerned that
we're replicating that pattern here. A good answer might be
to show that folks who aren't "insiders" are really using
CBOR for something that cannot use JOSE and is unrelated to
any IETF WG, and that they are doing that without input from
"insiders." A not so good answer would be of the form "I (an
insider) am using CBOR for <foo> and want COSE."

2) Can you explicitly say why JOSE just does not work for
some key use-cases? (And I do not mean "is not optimal" I
mean "cannot work.") I'm worried that we've done JOSE because
of <A: litany of flaws in CMS/XML>, and now we're doing COSE
because of <B: a litany of flaws in JOSE> and yet a lot the
same people who described A and developed JOSE seem to be
involved here, and so presumably agree with B. For those
folks, what have you learned to change your opinions? Why
not fix JOSE if fixes are needed? Why won't we see the same
pattern repeated here and once COSE is done be asked to
charter DOSE, then EOSE then GOSE etc.?

3) I think PHB has proposed a directly competing approach
to CBOR/COSE. [1] Why is what's proposed here technically
better than that? (Note: I'm not asking if CBOR is or is
not more popular than PHB's ideas.) Are there any other
such directly competing ideas and again, why is this one
the one to standardise?

I'm not sure if answers to the above ought affect charter
text, but they (or discussion ensuing) will affect how I at
least ballot on a charter. I've no idea if other ADs feel
similarly or not. (If it helped, I could ask.)

And lastly for context, I'm not "against" this work, but I
am uneasy about it - I think maybe it's being done too soon
and we'd perhaps be better off seeing if CBOR gets real
traction for uses that really cannot use JOSE. In general I
do think it is a good thing to have security primitives
defined for transports or formats that see widespread usage,
but I'm worried we may be wasting effort here.

Cheers,
S.

[1] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/jose/current/msg05034.html


From nobody Thu Apr  2 06:33:07 2015
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Hi Stephen,

thank you for exerting some pushback.  Good design is not possible
without pushback, and it is certainly useful to think again about the
assumptions we are making here.

> 1) Why is this different from BEEP?

The BEEP question is rather difficult to generate an answer for here:
The overlap on constituents between the BEEP community of yore and
today's IoT community is minimal.

Having watched BEEP from a corner of the eye at the time, first of all
I can tell you that BEEP was *weird*.  It provided an abstraction that
didn't really fit anything I was interested in.  Much more general
work is going on on transport abstractions now; I hope they don't run
into the same problem.

More importantly, BEEP also was solving a problem we no longer had:
It became available slightly after the market had decided that
application protocols would be put on top of HTTP; there simply no
longer was any development of new application protocols per se that
could have benefitted from BEEP.

This is clearly different for COSE.  Maybe we'll get a reasonably good
answer for the "who needs this" part of this question after having
collected some more use cases.

So: Could everyone please contribute their reason for being here to
https://github.com/cose-spec/use-cases/blob/master/use-cases.md
?

> 2) Can you explicitly say why JOSE just does not work for
> some key use-cases?

I had some slides about this:
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-jose-2.pdf
(the last three slides are the COSE-specific ones).

More generally, the 10 years of IoT standardization we have had in the
past were mostly about unshackling ourselves from prohibitive
backwards compatibility considerations.  6LoWPAN unshackled itself
from ND classic, ROLL from existing routing protocols, CoRE from HTTP,
...
If we stay serious about IoT, this pattern is unlikely going to end.

> Why won't we see the same
> pattern repeated here and once COSE is done be asked to
> charter DOSE, then EOSE then GOSE etc.?

We might, if there is an area of application that is as fundamentally
different from the Web as IoT is, and that is not covered by COSE.
(I'm not aware of such an area, but that is just proof by lack of
imagination.)

> 3) I think PHB has proposed a directly competing approach
> to CBOR/COSE. [1] Why is what's proposed here technically
> better than that? (Note: I'm not asking if CBOR is or is
> not more popular than PHB's ideas.) Are there any other
> such directly competing ideas and again, why is this one
> the one to standardise?

The design space is indeed humungous.  Why have we arrived here?
Binary-enhanced JSONs are a non-starter, they just carry all the
existing complexity of JSON and add a couple of backwards
compatibility issues.  That's why we did CBOR.

Now the more interesting question is: Why don't we stick with the
original draft-bormann-jose-cose, which is essentially "we don't need
to standardize anything, because JOSE already did our job".  See my
comment about unshackling above.  We do have the opportunity of
simplifying things by not being bound to the same installed-based
issues that JOSE was.  But, make no mistake, JOSE has done 98 % of the
legwork here, and there is no point in reinventing that.

> I'm not sure if answers to the above ought affect charter
> text, but they (or discussion ensuing) will affect how I at
> least ballot on a charter. I've no idea if other ADs feel
> similarly or not. (If it helped, I could ask.)

We could add more background to the charter.  Having recently done a
charter update proposal on the CoRE WG, I'm not so sure that capturing
the thinking of a specific point in time in the form of charter text
is such a good idea.  But COSE will be short-lived, so maybe we will
have less of an evolution problem.  (If we can write this in a way
that can be re-used for the document, we don't even waste time.)

Thanks again for feeling uneasy; as I said, that certainly helps us
all in thinking more clearly.

GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten


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From: Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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In-Reply-To: <551D099C.2010303@cs.tcd.ie> (Stephen Farrell's message of "Thu,  02 Apr 2015 10:19:24 +0100")
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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Hi,

Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> writes:

> Hiya,
>
> I was chatting with Kathleen about this and I have a couple
> of questions/concerns. Apologies for not being at the JOSE
> session in Dallas to ask 'em at the mic, but I had a conflict.
> Anyway, Kathleen suggested I ask 'em now rather than when we
> get the charter for balloting so here goes....
>
> 1) Why is this different from BEEP? BEEP had a lot of backing
> from some core/key IETFers, and consumed a lot of effort for
> them but also for others who (for a short while) got dragged
> into using that day's fashion item. Turned out all that effort
> was wasted as BEEP went nowhere. I'm a bit concerned that
> we're replicating that pattern here. A good answer might be
> to show that folks who aren't "insiders" are really using
> CBOR for something that cannot use JOSE and is unrelated to
> any IETF WG, and that they are doing that without input from
> "insiders." A not so good answer would be of the form "I (an
> insider) am using CBOR for <foo> and want COSE."

I cannot use JOSE because of it's size.  I want COSE+CBOR for tiny
embedded devices where literally bytes matter, and the 33% increase of
base64 is completely wasted.  In my use case I'm going to be nesting
objects, so a signature on a signed object which is itself signing a
signed object, etc.

If there were a 100% pure binary encoding of JSON/JOSE that had the same
compact encoding then I'd be happy to use it, but my understanding is
that there is not, so CBOR/COSE is attractive.

> 2) Can you explicitly say why JOSE just does not work for
> some key use-cases? (And I do not mean "is not optimal" I
> mean "cannot work.") I'm worried that we've done JOSE because
> of <A: litany of flaws in CMS/XML>, and now we're doing COSE
> because of <B: a litany of flaws in JOSE> and yet a lot the
> same people who described A and developed JOSE seem to be
> involved here, and so presumably agree with B. For those
> folks, what have you learned to change your opinions? Why
> not fix JOSE if fixes are needed? Why won't we see the same
> pattern repeated here and once COSE is done be asked to
> charter DOSE, then EOSE then GOSE etc.?

Size.  To me there's very little wrong with the JOSE/JSON structure,
except the encoding.

> 3) I think PHB has proposed a directly competing approach
> to CBOR/COSE. [1] Why is what's proposed here technically
> better than that? (Note: I'm not asking if CBOR is or is
> not more popular than PHB's ideas.) Are there any other
> such directly competing ideas and again, why is this one
> the one to standardise?

I have not looked closely at PHB's suggestion, but JSON-C could also
solve my problem, provided it can be nested.  PHB claims 25 bytes (out
of 129) are for framing with a total of 6 structure elements at 4 bytes
per element.  I haven't looked at the framing or per-element overhead of
CBOR vs JSON-C; if it's a 1:4 ratio then I'd still prefer to see a CBOR
encoding because those extra bytes can add up when nesting 10 objects
deep (an extra 120 bytes).

> I'm not sure if answers to the above ought affect charter
> text, but they (or discussion ensuing) will affect how I at
> least ballot on a charter. I've no idea if other ADs feel
> similarly or not. (If it helped, I could ask.)
>
> And lastly for context, I'm not "against" this work, but I
> am uneasy about it - I think maybe it's being done too soon
> and we'd perhaps be better off seeing if CBOR gets real
> traction for uses that really cannot use JOSE. In general I
> do think it is a good thing to have security primitives
> defined for transports or formats that see widespread usage,
> but I'm worried we may be wasting effort here.
>
> Cheers,
> S.
>
> [1] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/jose/current/msg05034.html
>

-derek
-- 
       Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
       derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
       Computer and Internet Security Consultant


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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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Hi Carsten,

On 02/04/15 14:32, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> Hi Stephen,
> 
> thank you for exerting some pushback.  Good design is not possible
> without pushback, and it is certainly useful to think again about the
> assumptions we are making here.

Thanks for taking this positively! That's great to see.

> 
>> 1) Why is this different from BEEP?
> 
> The BEEP question is rather difficult to generate an answer for here:
> The overlap on constituents between the BEEP community of yore and
> today's IoT community is minimal.

Sorry, my question wasn't phrased so well. I did not mean to assert
that BEEP, the protocol, could solve an IETF/IoT problems.

I meant to express my unease at the similar human pattern here of
a set of IETF "insiders" identifying and pushing strongly for a
technology when it's not clear (to me, yet) that there is real
non-insider demand for the work.

(To be clear: I do not think there's any negative connotation at all
to being an insider here, it's a fine thing. But I'd like to know that
the folks who've already inhaled all the fumes aren't, in reality,
the only ones who care about CBOR/COSE.)

> Having watched BEEP from a corner of the eye at the time, first of all
> I can tell you that BEEP was *weird*.  

Yes. And starting COSE when JOSE is not yet finished and when
most of the relevant bits of the world are using JSON without yet
having gotten to try play with JOSE is also weird.

> It provided an abstraction that
> didn't really fit anything I was interested in.  Much more general
> work is going on on transport abstractions now; I hope they don't run
> into the same problem.

Sure, but that doesn't touch on the question I asked (badly).

> More importantly, BEEP also was solving a problem we no longer had:
> It became available slightly after the market had decided that
> application protocols would be put on top of HTTP; there simply no
> longer was any development of new application protocols per se that
> could have benefitted from BEEP.
> 
> This is clearly different for COSE.  Maybe we'll get a reasonably good
> answer for the "who needs this" part of this question after having
> collected some more use cases.
> 
> So: Could everyone please contribute their reason for being here to
> https://github.com/cose-spec/use-cases/blob/master/use-cases.md
> ?

Well, again I'm not seeing the answer there to the question I badly
posed.

The best answer would be if you or someone pointed me at a bunch of
work that's being done using CBOR and that is not being done by
"insiders" and that has security requirements one cannot meet via
DTLS or JOSE.

So I also just took a quick look myself. One way I measure the
relevance of an RFC is via citations. RFC7049 is not referenced by
any other RFC [1] and google scholar only shows me 6 citations to
RFC7049. [2] To me that provides no evidence that we're ready to
start in on COSE and that that'll be worth the investment.

The corresponding numbers I see for RFC4627 are 18 RFCs, [3] and
833 citations, [4] which is quite a bit different. CBOR is of
course much newer so time may well eradicate that difference, but
again that's more indicative of COSE being too early than arguing
that this is the time for doing COSE.

   [1] http://www.arkko.com/tools/allstats/citations-rfc7049.html
   [2]
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=11243383381382361928&as_sdt=2005&sciodt=0,5&hl=en
   [3] http://www.arkko.com/tools/allstats/citations-rfc4627.html
   [4]
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=1045615204790743605&as_sdt=2005&sciodt=0,5&hl=en

> 
>> 2) Can you explicitly say why JOSE just does not work for
>> some key use-cases?
> 
> I had some slides about this:
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-jose-2.pdf
> (the last three slides are the COSE-specific ones).

The last 3 slides there simply seem to say "don't use b64." If
there are places where JOSE emits ciphertext, the plaintext of
which is b64 that might be a reason. However, I have no doubt
that, if that is needed, then some simple binary variation for
such cases could be done as a JOSE extension while retaining
compatibility for most forms of ciphertext/signature.

I do not currently accept that the b64 issue alone is sufficient
justification, at this early point in the evolution of CBOR, for
forming a COSE wg.

> 
> More generally, the 10 years of IoT standardization we have had in the
> past were mostly about unshackling ourselves from prohibitive
> backwards compatibility considerations.  6LoWPAN unshackled itself
> from ND classic, ROLL from existing routing protocols, CoRE from HTTP,
> ...
> If we stay serious about IoT, this pattern is unlikely going to end.

Hmm. That also doesn't touch on any reason why JOSE cannot work.
You may or may not be correct (and you certainly know more than I
about IoT's evolution) and yes, JOSE -> COSE is consistent with
the likes of HTTP -> CoAP. Perhaps it is just not clear to me that
a stack with CoAP, RPL, 6lo etc is what's going to dominate in
the way that HTTP, BGP, IP etc do.

I also recall the WAP forum and it's alternative stack and how by
the time it was ready, the real phone people really used could run
normal TLS/TCP/IP just fine. (But I know already you and I disagree
about the applicability of that lesson-learned for IoT.)

>> Why won't we see the same
>> pattern repeated here and once COSE is done be asked to
>> charter DOSE, then EOSE then GOSE etc.?
> 
> We might, if there is an area of application that is as fundamentally
> different from the Web as IoT is, and that is not covered by COSE.
> (I'm not aware of such an area, but that is just proof by lack of
> imagination.)

One could argue that that might not be a lack of imagination but
a lack of real demand. But this is a minor point and we can't
know what'll happen in future regardless of whether we do or do
not start a COSE wg.

> 
>> 3) I think PHB has proposed a directly competing approach
>> to CBOR/COSE. [1] Why is what's proposed here technically
>> better than that? (Note: I'm not asking if CBOR is or is
>> not more popular than PHB's ideas.) Are there any other
>> such directly competing ideas and again, why is this one
>> the one to standardise?
> 
> The design space is indeed humungous.  Why have we arrived here?
> Binary-enhanced JSONs are a non-starter, they just carry all the
> existing complexity of JSON and add a couple of backwards
> compatibility issues.  That's why we did CBOR.

I would have preferred a specific answer there that referred
to (ideally via a list archive URL) PHB's stuff and showed why
what's proposed here is (going to be) better, or which pointed
out the fatal flaw in PHB's work.

> Now the more interesting question is: Why don't we stick with the
> original draft-bormann-jose-cose, which is essentially "we don't need
> to standardize anything, because JOSE already did our job".  See my
> comment about unshackling above.  We do have the opportunity of
> simplifying things by not being bound to the same installed-based
> issues that JOSE was.  But, make no mistake, JOSE has done 98 % of the
> legwork here, and there is no point in reinventing that.

Simplifying 2% of JOSE by replicating 100% of it does not sound
attractive tbh.

> 
>> I'm not sure if answers to the above ought affect charter
>> text, but they (or discussion ensuing) will affect how I at
>> least ballot on a charter. I've no idea if other ADs feel
>> similarly or not. (If it helped, I could ask.)
> 
> We could add more background to the charter.  Having recently done a
> charter update proposal on the CoRE WG, I'm not so sure that capturing
> the thinking of a specific point in time in the form of charter text
> is such a good idea.  But COSE will be short-lived, so maybe we will
> have less of an evolution problem.  (If we can write this in a way
> that can be re-used for the document, we don't even waste time.)

I'd suggest we try bottom out the discussion some more before diving
straight into charter discussion. It may be that chunks of the
discussion are better are messages to this list and not as charter
text. So first arguing the case and then deciding what of that to
put in the charter is probably better as a plan I think.

> Thanks again for feeling uneasy; as I said, that certainly helps us
> all in thinking more clearly.

You're welcome. As I said I do not want to be obstructive here but
my unease/concern is intact as of now.

Cheers,
S.


> 
> GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> 


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Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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Thanks Derek. Would it be fair to say that your message implies
that an awful lot of the technical justification here hinges on
that b64 issue and that we probably ought to have very specific
answers as to why COSE is going to be better than alternatives
before we start a wg?

There are separate and also (though maybe not equally) valid
community arguments that might also come into play but I think
the first order thing is the technical justification which seems
to really hinge on that b64 issue.

S.

On 02/04/15 15:08, Derek Atkins wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> writes:
> 
>> Hiya,
>>
>> I was chatting with Kathleen about this and I have a couple
>> of questions/concerns. Apologies for not being at the JOSE
>> session in Dallas to ask 'em at the mic, but I had a conflict.
>> Anyway, Kathleen suggested I ask 'em now rather than when we
>> get the charter for balloting so here goes....
>>
>> 1) Why is this different from BEEP? BEEP had a lot of backing
>> from some core/key IETFers, and consumed a lot of effort for
>> them but also for others who (for a short while) got dragged
>> into using that day's fashion item. Turned out all that effort
>> was wasted as BEEP went nowhere. I'm a bit concerned that
>> we're replicating that pattern here. A good answer might be
>> to show that folks who aren't "insiders" are really using
>> CBOR for something that cannot use JOSE and is unrelated to
>> any IETF WG, and that they are doing that without input from
>> "insiders." A not so good answer would be of the form "I (an
>> insider) am using CBOR for <foo> and want COSE."
> 
> I cannot use JOSE because of it's size.  I want COSE+CBOR for tiny
> embedded devices where literally bytes matter, and the 33% increase of
> base64 is completely wasted.  In my use case I'm going to be nesting
> objects, so a signature on a signed object which is itself signing a
> signed object, etc.
> 
> If there were a 100% pure binary encoding of JSON/JOSE that had the same
> compact encoding then I'd be happy to use it, but my understanding is
> that there is not, so CBOR/COSE is attractive.
> 
>> 2) Can you explicitly say why JOSE just does not work for
>> some key use-cases? (And I do not mean "is not optimal" I
>> mean "cannot work.") I'm worried that we've done JOSE because
>> of <A: litany of flaws in CMS/XML>, and now we're doing COSE
>> because of <B: a litany of flaws in JOSE> and yet a lot the
>> same people who described A and developed JOSE seem to be
>> involved here, and so presumably agree with B. For those
>> folks, what have you learned to change your opinions? Why
>> not fix JOSE if fixes are needed? Why won't we see the same
>> pattern repeated here and once COSE is done be asked to
>> charter DOSE, then EOSE then GOSE etc.?
> 
> Size.  To me there's very little wrong with the JOSE/JSON structure,
> except the encoding.
> 
>> 3) I think PHB has proposed a directly competing approach
>> to CBOR/COSE. [1] Why is what's proposed here technically
>> better than that? (Note: I'm not asking if CBOR is or is
>> not more popular than PHB's ideas.) Are there any other
>> such directly competing ideas and again, why is this one
>> the one to standardise?
> 
> I have not looked closely at PHB's suggestion, but JSON-C could also
> solve my problem, provided it can be nested.  PHB claims 25 bytes (out
> of 129) are for framing with a total of 6 structure elements at 4 bytes
> per element.  I haven't looked at the framing or per-element overhead of
> CBOR vs JSON-C; if it's a 1:4 ratio then I'd still prefer to see a CBOR
> encoding because those extra bytes can add up when nesting 10 objects
> deep (an extra 120 bytes).
> 
>> I'm not sure if answers to the above ought affect charter
>> text, but they (or discussion ensuing) will affect how I at
>> least ballot on a charter. I've no idea if other ADs feel
>> similarly or not. (If it helped, I could ask.)
>>
>> And lastly for context, I'm not "against" this work, but I
>> am uneasy about it - I think maybe it's being done too soon
>> and we'd perhaps be better off seeing if CBOR gets real
>> traction for uses that really cannot use JOSE. In general I
>> do think it is a good thing to have security primitives
>> defined for transports or formats that see widespread usage,
>> but I'm worried we may be wasting effort here.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> S.
>>
>> [1] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/jose/current/msg05034.html
>>
> 
> -derek
> 


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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 10:50:53 -0400
From: "Derek Atkins" <derek@ihtfp.com>
To: "Stephen Farrell" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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Hi,

On Thu, April 2, 2015 10:24 am, Stephen Farrell wrote:
>
> Thanks Derek. Would it be fair to say that your message implies
> that an awful lot of the technical justification here hinges on
> that b64 issue and that we probably ought to have very specific
> answers as to why COSE is going to be better than alternatives
> before we start a wg?
>
> There are separate and also (though maybe not equally) valid
> community arguments that might also come into play but I think
> the first order thing is the technical justification which seems
> to really hinge on that b64 issue.

It's more than just the b64 part, but that's a MAJOR part of it.
My understanding (which is limited and probably flawed) is that CBOR also
gives you the potential to use single-byte element tags.  Maybe the JSON-C
does, too, but I haven't looked at it yet.  String tags for standard
element entries is a non-starter, and using 4 bytes vs. 1 is, IMHO, also a
non-starter.  In my use case I might have 10 (or more) nested objects, so
if each object has 15 extra bytes do to element tag overhead, that's an
extra 150 bytes.  In my environment that's significant and worth the
engineering to re-do it.

I'd encourage a minimalist approach.

I'm of the opinion that the JOSE data structures can (and should) be used
as much as possible.  I would prefer NOT to see re-architecting them and
instead just say "this is how you encode the data model".  It would entail
a registry to provide the single-byte tag numbers for the known data
fields and change any b64 to a binary type.

I'd love for someone more knowledgeable than I give a quick "CBOR vs
JSON-C" comparison.

> S.

-derek
>
> On 02/04/15 15:08, Derek Atkins wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> writes:
>>
>>> Hiya,
>>>
>>> I was chatting with Kathleen about this and I have a couple
>>> of questions/concerns. Apologies for not being at the JOSE
>>> session in Dallas to ask 'em at the mic, but I had a conflict.
>>> Anyway, Kathleen suggested I ask 'em now rather than when we
>>> get the charter for balloting so here goes....
>>>
>>> 1) Why is this different from BEEP? BEEP had a lot of backing
>>> from some core/key IETFers, and consumed a lot of effort for
>>> them but also for others who (for a short while) got dragged
>>> into using that day's fashion item. Turned out all that effort
>>> was wasted as BEEP went nowhere. I'm a bit concerned that
>>> we're replicating that pattern here. A good answer might be
>>> to show that folks who aren't "insiders" are really using
>>> CBOR for something that cannot use JOSE and is unrelated to
>>> any IETF WG, and that they are doing that without input from
>>> "insiders." A not so good answer would be of the form "I (an
>>> insider) am using CBOR for <foo> and want COSE."
>>
>> I cannot use JOSE because of it's size.  I want COSE+CBOR for tiny
>> embedded devices where literally bytes matter, and the 33% increase of
>> base64 is completely wasted.  In my use case I'm going to be nesting
>> objects, so a signature on a signed object which is itself signing a
>> signed object, etc.
>>
>> If there were a 100% pure binary encoding of JSON/JOSE that had the same
>> compact encoding then I'd be happy to use it, but my understanding is
>> that there is not, so CBOR/COSE is attractive.
>>
>>> 2) Can you explicitly say why JOSE just does not work for
>>> some key use-cases? (And I do not mean "is not optimal" I
>>> mean "cannot work.") I'm worried that we've done JOSE because
>>> of <A: litany of flaws in CMS/XML>, and now we're doing COSE
>>> because of <B: a litany of flaws in JOSE> and yet a lot the
>>> same people who described A and developed JOSE seem to be
>>> involved here, and so presumably agree with B. For those
>>> folks, what have you learned to change your opinions? Why
>>> not fix JOSE if fixes are needed? Why won't we see the same
>>> pattern repeated here and once COSE is done be asked to
>>> charter DOSE, then EOSE then GOSE etc.?
>>
>> Size.  To me there's very little wrong with the JOSE/JSON structure,
>> except the encoding.
>>
>>> 3) I think PHB has proposed a directly competing approach
>>> to CBOR/COSE. [1] Why is what's proposed here technically
>>> better than that? (Note: I'm not asking if CBOR is or is
>>> not more popular than PHB's ideas.) Are there any other
>>> such directly competing ideas and again, why is this one
>>> the one to standardise?
>>
>> I have not looked closely at PHB's suggestion, but JSON-C could also
>> solve my problem, provided it can be nested.  PHB claims 25 bytes (out
>> of 129) are for framing with a total of 6 structure elements at 4 bytes
>> per element.  I haven't looked at the framing or per-element overhead of
>> CBOR vs JSON-C; if it's a 1:4 ratio then I'd still prefer to see a CBOR
>> encoding because those extra bytes can add up when nesting 10 objects
>> deep (an extra 120 bytes).
>>
>>> I'm not sure if answers to the above ought affect charter
>>> text, but they (or discussion ensuing) will affect how I at
>>> least ballot on a charter. I've no idea if other ADs feel
>>> similarly or not. (If it helped, I could ask.)
>>>
>>> And lastly for context, I'm not "against" this work, but I
>>> am uneasy about it - I think maybe it's being done too soon
>>> and we'd perhaps be better off seeing if CBOR gets real
>>> traction for uses that really cannot use JOSE. In general I
>>> do think it is a good thing to have security primitives
>>> defined for transports or formats that see widespread usage,
>>> but I'm worried we may be wasting effort here.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> S.
>>>
>>> [1] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/jose/current/msg05034.html
>>>
>>
>> -derek
>>
>


-- 
       Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
       derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
       Computer and Internet Security Consultant


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Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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> I meant to express my unease at the similar human pattern here of
> a set of IETF "insiders" identifying and pushing strongly for a
> technology when it's not clear (to me, yet) that there is real
> non-insider demand for the work.

... and I was trying to explain why the comparison is not so good,
because BEEP failed for reasons that are quite different from the things
we are discussing here.

COSE is actually the first draft I have written in 20+ years of IETF
work where people are sending me unsolicited specifications with an
attached letter "this is how we are planning to use COSE, do you see any
problems with that".  Yes, outsiders.

> The best answer would be if you or someone pointed me at a bunch of
> work that's being done using CBOR and that is not being done by
> "insiders" and that has security requirements one cannot meet via
> DTLS or JOSE.

Impossible -- because COSE is a copy of JOSE, it fulfills the same
*security requirements*.
It just doesn't work in certain environments.

> So I also just took a quick look myself. One way I measure the
> relevance of an RFC is via citations. RFC7049 is not referenced by
> any other RFC [1] and google scholar only shows me 6 citations to
> RFC7049. [2] To me that provides no evidence that we're ready to
> start in on COSE and that that'll be worth the investment.

This is more of a demonstration of
-- how long it takes to finish a spec in the IETF -- the ones based on
CBOR just aren't RFCs yet,
-- what kind of no-brainer CBOR is -- it's not something you do research
*on*.  (Some of the research *based* on it is just not published yet;
research also sometimes takes time.)

>>> 2) Can you explicitly say why JOSE just does not work for
>>> some key use-cases?
>> I had some slides about this:
>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-jose-2.pdf
>> (the last three slides are the COSE-specific ones).
> 
> The last 3 slides there simply seem to say "don't use b64." 

They do say a bit more, but, yes, base64 is the biggest problem.
The other two are the escape processing required by JSON, and the
handling of strings -- the decimal numerics that get in the way of JSON
usage are not an issue here.

> Perhaps it is just not clear to me that
> a stack with CoAP, RPL, 6lo etc is what's going to dominate in
> the way that HTTP, BGP, IP etc do.

Well, is HOBA going to dominate in that way?  That's an RFC.

> I also recall the WAP forum and it's alternative stack and how by
> the time it was ready, the real phone people really used could run
> normal TLS/TCP/IP just fine. 

Well, I still have the scars from the SDPng discussion where people
weren't accepting the idea of fixing SDP because "phones will never
speak XML".  Yeah, right.  If you look at my plenary slides from a while
ago, I'm actually citing WAP as something we should learn from.
WAP did not fail because it took away complexity, it failed because it
simply replaced one form of complexity by a different, "more optimal"
complexity.

> (But I know already you and I disagree
> about the applicability of that lesson-learned for IoT.)

Here, we'll have to agree to disagree.

>> The design space is indeed humungous.  Why have we arrived here?
>> Binary-enhanced JSONs are a non-starter, they just carry all the
>> existing complexity of JSON and add a couple of backwards
>> compatibility issues.  That's why we did CBOR.
> 
> I would have preferred a specific answer there that referred
> to (ideally via a list archive URL) PHB's stuff and showed why
> what's proposed here is (going to be) better, or which pointed
> out the fatal flaw in PHB's work.

I'm sorry, but that is water under the bridge.  Replacing CBOR by
something that nobody has looked at in detail is not reducing any of the
other work required (and, for one, am not going to waste any time on
something that is not solving my problems).  If minimal work is what you
are interested in, you should argue for draft-bormann-jose-cose as
opposed to draft-schaad-jose, not for redoing the work we did for CBOR
based on something much less useful.

>> Now the more interesting question is: Why don't we stick with the
>> original draft-bormann-jose-cose, which is essentially "we don't need
>> to standardize anything, because JOSE already did our job".  See my
>> comment about unshackling above.  We do have the opportunity of
>> simplifying things by not being bound to the same installed-based
>> issues that JOSE was.  But, make no mistake, JOSE has done 98 % of the
>> legwork here, and there is no point in reinventing that.
> 
> Simplifying 2% of JOSE by replicating 100% of it does not sound
> attractive tbh.

I don't know what's being replicated here.  We need to:
-- switch to a data encoding that actually use the efficiencies offered
by CBOR, without changing things structurally,
-- assign numbers in some places where right now we only have strings.

None of this is replicating any work already done by JOSE (except that
they already did encode their data in JSON, sometimes awkwardly, but
that is the trivial part).

GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten


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To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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On Apr 2, 2015, at 2:19 AM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> =
wrote:
> 1) Why is this different from BEEP?

BEEP was designed for an ASCII-based transport, required a fairly =
complex processor for both encoding and decoding, and also did not do =
much to try to reduce message size. Those were explicit design choices =
that have not borne fruit.

> 2) Can you explicitly say why JOSE just does not work for
> some key use-cases? (And I do not mean "is not optimal" I
> mean "cannot work.")

With those restrictions, probably any existing format (JOSE, XMLENC, =
CMS, OpenPGP, ...) can be made to work. That is, if you ignore the =
requirements for reducing the overhead of the encoder/decoder, and =
ignore the requirements for small messages, we didn't have to ever come =
up with things beyond whatever-was-first.

> 3) I think PHB has proposed a directly competing approach
> to CBOR/COSE.

It is not "directly competing" in that it inherently takes more =
resources for encoding and decoding than even JSON does, whereas CBOR =
takes less than even JSON. Further, it would be a fork of JOSE, and it =
would require the IETF to be willing to extend or revise JSON. Phill =
brought up his proposal a few times, and there was no interest, whereas =
there was a fair amount of interest in CBOR.

--Paul Hoffman=


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Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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Hiya,

On 02/04/15 18:04, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> COSE is actually the first draft I have written in 20+ years of IETF
> work where people are sending me unsolicited specifications with an
> attached letter "this is how we are planning to use COSE, do you see any
> problems with that".  Yes, outsiders.

Seeing some of that expressed on this list (or some other list,
or web pages, I don't care about that) would be a fantastic answer
to my question.

>> The best answer would be if you or someone pointed me at a bunch of
>> work that's being done using CBOR and that is not being done by
>> "insiders" and that has security requirements one cannot meet via
>> DTLS or JOSE.
> 
> Impossible -- because COSE is a copy of JOSE, it fulfills the same
> *security requirements*.
> It just doesn't work in certain environments.

Fair enough. But you could point at work being done using CBOR.
It's those pointers I'm after mostly.

>> So I also just took a quick look myself. One way I measure the
>> relevance of an RFC is via citations. RFC7049 is not referenced by
>> any other RFC [1] and google scholar only shows me 6 citations to
>> RFC7049. [2] To me that provides no evidence that we're ready to
>> start in on COSE and that that'll be worth the investment.
> 
> This is more of a demonstration of
> -- how long it takes to finish a spec in the IETF -- the ones based on
> CBOR just aren't RFCs yet,
> -- what kind of no-brainer CBOR is -- it's not something you do research
> *on*.  (Some of the research *based* on it is just not published yet;
> research also sometimes takes time.)

Right, I think I said that too. The point is that we don't have
positive evidence of folks using CBOR from that direction, and
hence me asking for pointers to work being done.

>>>> 2) Can you explicitly say why JOSE just does not work for
>>>> some key use-cases?
>>> I had some slides about this:
>>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-jose-2.pdf
>>> (the last three slides are the COSE-specific ones).
>>
>> The last 3 slides there simply seem to say "don't use b64." 
> 
> They do say a bit more, but, yes, base64 is the biggest problem.

So how do we justify going from "let's document a way to use JOSE
but without the b64 penalty" to "let's re-design all of JOSE to
be a thing called COSE that doesn't have the b64 penalty"? I don't
think I've seen that justification tbh.

> The other two are the escape processing required by JSON, and the
> handling of strings -- the decimal numerics that get in the way of JSON
> usage are not an issue here.
> 
>> Perhaps it is just not clear to me that
>> a stack with CoAP, RPL, 6lo etc is what's going to dominate in
>> the way that HTTP, BGP, IP etc do.
> 
> Well, is HOBA going to dominate in that way?  That's an RFC.

I've no idea what point you're making there. But in any case, no,
HOBA will not dominate anything. (And I don't believe I've ever
claimed it would.) I think you've also quoted my text above out
of context - it was responding to your point about "unshackling"
with which I don't think I agree. But this is a side-line anyway,
COSE, if justifiable, shouldn't depend on your or my views on
"unshackling" so we're probably better off leaving this be.

> 
>> I also recall the WAP forum and it's alternative stack and how by
>> the time it was ready, the real phone people really used could run
>> normal TLS/TCP/IP just fine. 
> 
> Well, I still have the scars from the SDPng discussion where people
> weren't accepting the idea of fixing SDP because "phones will never
> speak XML".  Yeah, right.  If you look at my plenary slides from a while
> ago, I'm actually citing WAP as something we should learn from.
> WAP did not fail because it took away complexity, it failed because it
> simply replaced one form of complexity by a different, "more optimal"
> complexity.

Partly, yes. But also because time went by, and what appeared to be
hard requirements of a class of constrained equipment turned out to
no longer be required. It's the applicability of that latter point
to challenged networks and devices on which you and I disagree I
think. And it's just fine that we disagree, and the justification
for COSE shouldn't depend on either your or my opinions there
either.

>> (But I know already you and I disagree
>> about the applicability of that lesson-learned for IoT.)
> 
> Here, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Yep.

> 
>>> The design space is indeed humungous.  Why have we arrived here?
>>> Binary-enhanced JSONs are a non-starter, they just carry all the
>>> existing complexity of JSON and add a couple of backwards
>>> compatibility issues.  That's why we did CBOR.
>>
>> I would have preferred a specific answer there that referred
>> to (ideally via a list archive URL) PHB's stuff and showed why
>> what's proposed here is (going to be) better, or which pointed
>> out the fatal flaw in PHB's work.
> 
> I'm sorry, but that is water under the bridge.

That seems non-responsive, so maybe I wasn't clear. If the flaws
in PHB's stuff, or the advantages of COSE compared to PHB's stuff,
were water under the bridge then you should be able to send me the
list archive URL where that was documented. If not, then the water
hasn't yet flowed under an IETF visible bridge;-)

>  Replacing CBOR by
> something that nobody has looked at in detail is not reducing any of the
> other work required (and, for one, am not going to waste any time on
> something that is not solving my problems).  

You are assuming that I accept that CBOR is being, or will be,
widely used. That may be the case, but I have not seen the evidence
for that. If CBOR is being widely used that shouldn't be hard to
demonstrate. And (to repeat myself) it's those pointers to work
based on CBOR that I'd most like to see.

> If minimal work is what you
> are interested in, you should argue for draft-bormann-jose-cose as
> opposed to draft-schaad-jose, not for redoing the work we did for CBOR
> based on something much less useful.

I am not arguing for PHB's stuff. I'm asking to see the analysis
of why it is the wrong approach and why COSE is the right approach.

>>> Now the more interesting question is: Why don't we stick with the
>>> original draft-bormann-jose-cose, which is essentially "we don't need
>>> to standardize anything, because JOSE already did our job".  See my
>>> comment about unshackling above.  We do have the opportunity of
>>> simplifying things by not being bound to the same installed-based
>>> issues that JOSE was.  But, make no mistake, JOSE has done 98 % of the
>>> legwork here, and there is no point in reinventing that.
>>
>> Simplifying 2% of JOSE by replicating 100% of it does not sound
>> attractive tbh.
> 
> I don't know what's being replicated here.  We need to:
> -- switch to a data encoding that actually use the efficiencies offered
> by CBOR, without changing things structurally,
> -- assign numbers in some places where right now we only have strings.
> 
> None of this is replicating any work already done by JOSE (except that
> they already did encode their data in JSON, sometimes awkwardly, but
> that is the trivial part).

Except that I remember being told similar things about how JOSE
would be almost immediately finished - I just looked back, the
first charter proposal text I found, which is about where we are
on this one, claimed JOSE would be finished in in April 2012 [1] ;-)
I actually don't have a problem with folks making or believing
such claims about how easy it'll all be, but I also don't take
them very seriously. I think re-doing all of JOSE as COSE will be
a big chunk of work that'll consume a lot of people's time.

S.

[1] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/jose/current/msg00175.html


> 
> GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> 


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Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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Hiya,

On 02/04/15 18:13, Paul Hoffman wrote:
> On Apr 2, 2015, at 2:19 AM, Stephen Farrell
> <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>> 1) Why is this different from BEEP?
> 
> BEEP was designed for an ASCII-based transport, required a fairly
> complex processor for both encoding and decoding, and also did not do
> much to try to reduce message size. Those were explicit design
> choices that have not borne fruit.

Sorry, see my discussion with Carsten. I'm not asking about the
BEEP protocol but about the insider group-think aspects that
ended up with the IETF spending a lot of effort on BEEP.

> 
>> 2) Can you explicitly say why JOSE just does not work for some key
>> use-cases? (And I do not mean "is not optimal" I mean "cannot
>> work.")
> 
> With those restrictions, probably any existing format (JOSE, XMLENC,
> CMS, OpenPGP, ...) can be made to work. That is, if you ignore the
> requirements for reducing the overhead of the encoder/decoder, 

So are we saying that the code footprint of a COSE library will
be a lot smaller than for JOSE? If so, that'd be interesting but
I've not seen that argued. (It was for CBOR vs. JSON, but I don't
think for COSE vs JOSE that I've seen.) Naively, I'd have thought
the code footprint would be dominated by the crypto functions in
both cases. (Note: a fair comparison here would be against a JOSE
library where someone has tried to consider code footprint size,
but I've no idea if anyone has done that.)

I could imagine that one might want to prefer an overall suite
of crypto mechanisms that re-use functions to save footprint. I'm
not clear if COSE plans to do work on that or not, but if any of
it involves novel crypto (which can end up being needed) then
that'd be good to know ahead of time.

> and
> ignore the requirements for small messages, we didn't have to ever
> come up with things beyond whatever-was-first.

So what are the "small message" requirements really? Not wasting
bytes via (esp layers of) b64 or other webby-encoding is clear.

Derek I think implied a requirement that the same small plaintext
be encrypted multiple times without getting bigger but I'm not
clear on if that's needed generally or is a weird corner-case.
(I'm also not clear how the key management for that wouldn't
have to call for bigger and bigger messages or more and more calls
to a KDC-like thing.)

Are there others?

(Also note: I am not asking for work to be done on a requirements
draft. If this is all as obvious as being claimed it should be
possible to deal with the COSE-specific requirements in some
emails, and maybe those might affect some charter text, or not.)

> 
>> 3) I think PHB has proposed a directly competing approach to
>> CBOR/COSE.
> 
> It is not "directly competing" in that it inherently takes more
> resources for encoding and decoding than even JSON does, whereas CBOR
> takes less than even JSON. 

Sorry not to have read all of that but why is that "inherently" true?

> Further, it would be a fork of JOSE, 

Well, COSE would be a fork of JOSE too I guess.

> and
> it would require the IETF to be willing to extend or revise JSON.

Fair enough - if PHB's stuff extends JSON so that current JSON
parsers would barf, then that is a showstopper.

> Phill brought up his proposal a few times, and there was no interest,
> whereas there was a fair amount of interest in CBOR.

Right, but that only tells us to not pursue Phill's thing. It
does not argue that we ought do COSE.

S.





> 
> --Paul Hoffman
> 


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References: <BL2PR03MB4334B0F0DC3E7494EA9F3E0F5080@BL2PR03MB433.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <E9304CF8-010E-4D43-8537-BFB61234F35D@vpnc.org> <BLUPR03MB4371CF16480E2340BE4E8FFF5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515A144.5060403@tzi.org> <BLUPR03MB437187A8194BEC8E764E101F5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <, > <5515D7BC.5060408@tzi.org> <BY2PR03MB4427BB45B2C867BACD663E7F5090@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515EAA6.50109@tzi.org> <3E437B95-88E2-4C7B-8AC9-B084FB113362@vpnc.org> <BY2PR03MB44277A917B73D29103F4056F5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <C410E074-2E47-40C9-94D2-0C7568A31E9E@vpnc.org> <, > <BY2PR03MB442FA924D39EF2EEEDE0E1FF5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <032e4abb-fa77-40f5-b9ae-f09435ddbc91@alibaba-inc.com> <7FB72934-9659-40B3-8E12-A272A6658C1E@vpnc.org> <551D099C.2010303@cs.tcd.ie> <D2AD4D28-E453-4E9F-9CE9-B363A27FA5C5@vpnc.org> <551E7509.8060604@cs.tcd.ie>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cose/134rp2uqtxQbX5Zu16bhAEVHn2k>
Cc: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>, "cose@ietf.org" <cose@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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Hi,

I'll see where I can help from previous discussions.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 3, 2015, at 7:10 AM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wr=
ote:
>=20
>=20
> Hiya,
>=20
>> On 02/04/15 18:13, Paul Hoffman wrote:
>> On Apr 2, 2015, at 2:19 AM, Stephen Farrell
>> <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>>> 1) Why is this different from BEEP?
>>=20
>> BEEP was designed for an ASCII-based transport, required a fairly
>> complex processor for both encoding and decoding, and also did not do
>> much to try to reduce message size. Those were explicit design
>> choices that have not borne fruit.
>=20
> Sorry, see my discussion with Carsten. I'm not asking about the
> BEEP protocol but about the insider group-think aspects that
> ended up with the IETF spending a lot of effort on BEEP.

Yes, we'd like to avoid this as well.
>=20
>>=20
>>> 2) Can you explicitly say why JOSE just does not work for some key
>>> use-cases? (And I do not mean "is not optimal" I mean "cannot
>>> work.")
>>=20
>> With those restrictions, probably any existing format (JOSE, XMLENC,
>> CMS, OpenPGP, ...) can be made to work. That is, if you ignore the
>> requirements for reducing the overhead of the encoder/decoder,
>=20
> So are we saying that the code footprint of a COSE library will
> be a lot smaller than for JOSE?

My understanding is that the data exchanged is much smaller, not sure about t=
he coding footprint or algorithms.
> If so, that'd be interesting but
> I've not seen that argued. (It was for CBOR vs. JSON, but I don't
> think for COSE vs JOSE that I've seen.) Naively, I'd have thought
> the code footprint would be dominated by the crypto functions in
> both cases. (Note: a fair comparison here would be against a JOSE
> library where someone has tried to consider code footprint size,
> but I've no idea if anyone has done that.)
>=20
> I could imagine that one might want to prefer an overall suite
> of crypto mechanisms that re-use functions to save footprint. I'm
> not clear if COSE plans to do work on that or not, but if any of
> it involves novel crypto (which can end up being needed) then
> that'd be good to know ahead of time.
>=20
>> and
>> ignore the requirements for small messages, we didn't have to ever
>> come up with things beyond whatever-was-first.
>=20
> So what are the "small message" requirements really? Not wasting
> bytes via (esp layers of) b64 or other webby-encoding is clear.
>=20
> Derek I think implied a requirement that the same small plaintext
> be encrypted multiple times without getting bigger but I'm not
> clear on if that's needed generally or is a weird corner-case.
> (I'm also not clear how the key management for that wouldn't
> have to call for bigger and bigger messages or more and more calls
> to a KDC-like thing.)

Size has been discussed on list (I believe - JOSE) and in meetings and has b=
een the main driver.
>=20
> Are there others?
>=20
> (Also note: I am not asking for work to be done on a requirements
> draft. If this is all as obvious as being claimed it should be
> possible to deal with the COSE-specific requirements in some
> emails, and maybe those might affect some charter text, or not.)
>=20
Agreed.
>>=20
>>> 3) I think PHB has proposed a directly competing approach to
>>> CBOR/COSE.
>>=20
>> It is not "directly competing" in that it inherently takes more
>> resources for encoding and decoding than even JSON does, whereas CBOR
>> takes less than even JSON.
>=20
> Sorry not to have read all of that but why is that "inherently" true?

I did get a reasonable answer for this and hopefully someone will chime in. =
 I'll reach back out to the person and respond once I hear back - IETF week w=
as a long one.
>=20
>> Further, it would be a fork of JOSE,
>=20
> Well, COSE would be a fork of JOSE too I guess.
>=20
>> and
>> it would require the IETF to be willing to extend or revise JSON.
>=20
> Fair enough - if PHB's stuff extends JSON so that current JSON
> parsers would barf, then that is a showstopper.
>> Phill brought up his proposal a few times, and there was no interest,
>> whereas there was a fair amount of interest in CBOR.
>=20
> Right, but that only tells us to not pursue Phill's thing. It
> does not argue that we ought do COSE.

It's finally been posted in a draft, I believe and it had not been before.  L=
ooking at both answers in parallel will help to get what's needed sooner and=
 I'm also interested to see reviews of PHBs work on JOSE as part of this pro=
cess to show due diligence.

Thanks,
Kathleen =20
>=20
> S.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> --Paul Hoffman
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


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References: <BL2PR03MB4334B0F0DC3E7494EA9F3E0F5080@BL2PR03MB433.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <E9304CF8-010E-4D43-8537-BFB61234F35D@vpnc.org> <BLUPR03MB4371CF16480E2340BE4E8FFF5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515A144.5060403@tzi.org> <BLUPR03MB437187A8194BEC8E764E101F5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <, > <5515D7BC.5060408@tzi.org> <BY2PR03MB4427BB45B2C867BACD663E7F5090@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515EAA6.50109@tzi.org> <3E437B95-88E2-4C7B-8AC9-B084FB113362@vpnc.org> <BY2PR03MB44277A917B73D29103F4056F5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <C410E074-2E47-40C9-94D2-0C7568A31E9E@vpnc.org> <, > <BY2PR03MB442FA924D39EF2EEEDE0E1FF5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <032e4abb-fa77-40f5-b9ae-f09435ddbc91@alibaba-inc.com> <7FB72934-9659-40B3-8E12-A272A6658C1E@vpnc.org> <551D099C.2010303@cs.tcd.ie> <551D4507.70806@tzi.org> <551D4FEE.50800@cs.tcd.ie> <551D769D.2010602@tzi.org>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cose/GM_YT1FQXlBF-jAPtaBgJ6gq03o>
Cc: "cose@ietf.org" <cose@ietf.org>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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Hi,

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 2, 2015, at 1:04 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:

>> I meant to express my unease at the similar human pattern here of
>> a set of IETF "insiders" identifying and pushing strongly for a
>> technology when it's not clear (to me, yet) that there is real
>> non-insider demand for the work.
>=20
> ... and I was trying to explain why the comparison is not so good,
> because BEEP failed for reasons that are quite different from the things
> we are discussing here.
>=20
> COSE is actually the first draft I have written in 20+ years of IETF
> work where people are sending me unsolicited specifications with an
> attached letter "this is how we are planning to use COSE, do you see any
> problems with that".  Yes, outsiders.

Please encourage them to send their messages to the list.  Is very helpful t=
hat we see the possible uses and real customers of potential work.
>=20
>> The best answer would be if you or someone pointed me at a bunch of
>> work that's being done using CBOR and that is not being done by
>> "insiders" and that has security requirements one cannot meet via
>> DTLS or JOSE.
>=20
> Impossible -- because COSE is a copy of JOSE, it fulfills the same
> *security requirements*.
> It just doesn't work in certain environments.
>=20
>> So I also just took a quick look myself. One way I measure the
>> relevance of an RFC is via citations. RFC7049 is not referenced by
>> any other RFC [1] and google scholar only shows me 6 citations to
>> RFC7049. [2] To me that provides no evidence that we're ready to
>> start in on COSE and that that'll be worth the investment.
>=20
> This is more of a demonstration of
> -- how long it takes to finish a spec in the IETF -- the ones based on
> CBOR just aren't RFCs yet,
> -- what kind of no-brainer CBOR is -- it's not something you do research
> *on*.  (Some of the research *based* on it is just not published yet;
> research also sometimes takes time.)
>=20
>>>> 2) Can you explicitly say why JOSE just does not work for
>>>> some key use-cases?
>>> I had some slides about this:
>>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-jose-2.pdf
>>> (the last three slides are the COSE-specific ones).
>>=20
>> The last 3 slides there simply seem to say "don't use b64."
>=20
> They do say a bit more, but, yes, base64 is the biggest problem.
> The other two are the escape processing required by JSON, and the
> handling of strings -- the decimal numerics that get in the way of JSON
> usage are not an issue here.
>=20
>> Perhaps it is just not clear to me that
>> a stack with CoAP, RPL, 6lo etc is what's going to dominate in
>> the way that HTTP, BGP, IP etc do.
>=20
> Well, is HOBA going to dominate in that way?  That's an RFC.
>=20
>> I also recall the WAP forum and it's alternative stack and how by
>> the time it was ready, the real phone people really used could run
>> normal TLS/TCP/IP just fine.
>=20
> Well, I still have the scars from the SDPng discussion where people
> weren't accepting the idea of fixing SDP because "phones will never
> speak XML".  Yeah, right.  If you look at my plenary slides from a while
> ago, I'm actually citing WAP as something we should learn from.
> WAP did not fail because it took away complexity, it failed because it
> simply replaced one form of complexity by a different, "more optimal"
> complexity.
>=20
>> (But I know already you and I disagree
>> about the applicability of that lesson-learned for IoT.)
>=20
> Here, we'll have to agree to disagree.
>=20
>>> The design space is indeed humungous.  Why have we arrived here?
>>> Binary-enhanced JSONs are a non-starter, they just carry all the
>>> existing complexity of JSON and add a couple of backwards
>>> compatibility issues.  That's why we did CBOR.
>>=20
>> I would have preferred a specific answer there that referred
>> to (ideally via a list archive URL) PHB's stuff and showed why
>> what's proposed here is (going to be) better, or which pointed
>> out the fatal flaw in PHB's work.
>=20
> I'm sorry, but that is water under the bridge.  Replacing CBOR by
> something that nobody has looked at in detail is not reducing any of the
> other work required (and, for one, am not going to waste any time on
> something that is not solving my problems).  If minimal work is what you
> are interested in, you should argue for draft-bormann-jose-cose as
> opposed to draft-schaad-jose, not for redoing the work we did for CBOR
> based on something much less useful.

This doesn't help enough and there have been a couple of responses that just=
 say use this and not what PHB is proposing and a seeming unwillingness to r=
eview his proposal to explain any issues with it.  That doesn't show why one=
 direction should be pursued versus another, it looks more like a bias.  My r=
equest is for a few of you to review PHB's proposal to show clear comparison=
s and help us move forward.

I'd like these to be on technical merits and needs of consumers with a healt=
hy on list discussion.

Thanks,
Kathleen=20

>=20
>>> Now the more interesting question is: Why don't we stick with the
>>> original draft-bormann-jose-cose, which is essentially "we don't need
>>> to standardize anything, because JOSE already did our job".  See my
>>> comment about unshackling above.  We do have the opportunity of
>>> simplifying things by not being bound to the same installed-based
>>> issues that JOSE was.  But, make no mistake, JOSE has done 98 % of the
>>> legwork here, and there is no point in reinventing that.
>>=20
>> Simplifying 2% of JOSE by replicating 100% of it does not sound
>> attractive tbh.
>=20
> I don't know what's being replicated here.  We need to:
> -- switch to a data encoding that actually use the efficiencies offered
> by CBOR, without changing things structurally,
> -- assign numbers in some places where right now we only have strings.
>=20
> None of this is replicating any work already done by JOSE (except that
> they already did encode their data in JSON, sometimes awkwardly, but
> that is the trivial part).
>=20
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


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References: <BL2PR03MB4334B0F0DC3E7494EA9F3E0F5080@BL2PR03MB433.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <E9304CF8-010E-4D43-8537-BFB61234F35D@vpnc.org> <BLUPR03MB4371CF16480E2340BE4E8FFF5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515A144.5060403@tzi.org> <BLUPR03MB437187A8194BEC8E764E101F5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <, > <5515D7BC.5060408@tzi.org> <BY2PR03MB4427BB45B2C867BACD663E7F5090@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515EAA6.50109@tzi.org> <3E437B95-88E2-4C7B-8AC9-B084FB113362@vpnc.org> <BY2PR03MB44277A917B73D29103F4056F5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <C410E074-2E47-40C9-94D2-0C7568A31E9E@vpnc.org> <, > <BY2PR03MB442FA924D39EF2EEEDE0E1FF5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <032e4abb-fa77-40f5-b9ae-f09435ddbc91@alibaba-inc.com> <7FB72934-9659-40B3-8E12-A272A6658C1E@vpnc.org> <551D099C.2010303@cs.tcd.ie> <D2AD4D28-E453-4E9F-9CE9-B363A27FA5C5@vpnc.org> <551E7509.8060604@cs.tcd.ie> <E117B0B7-1974-435E-A6D8-3DF5B47971B1@gmail.com>
To: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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On Apr 3, 2015, at 5:46 AM, Kathleen Moriarty =
<kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Apr 3, 2015, at 7:10 AM, Stephen Farrell =
<stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>> Sorry, see my discussion with Carsten. I'm not asking about the
>> BEEP protocol but about the insider group-think aspects that
>> ended up with the IETF spending a lot of effort on BEEP.
>=20
> Yes, we'd like to avoid this as well.

The proposed charter is not "a lot of effort", certainly not as much as =
BEEP took. BEEP was a format, a transport protocol, and many other =
things: COSE is a format.

It is also not appropriate to say that either BEEP was consumed by =
"insider group-think aspects that ended up with the IETF spending a lot =
of effort". In fact, the opposite was true: BEEP was designed by people =
not familiar with the requirements of the IoT community, but who had a =
long history of doing IETF formats and protocols. Those people thought =
we could impose our new protocol on others. The COSE work, however, is =
being motivated by people within the IoT community.

>>>> 2) Can you explicitly say why JOSE just does not work for some key
>>>> use-cases? (And I do not mean "is not optimal" I mean "cannot
>>>> work.")
>>>=20
>>> With those restrictions, probably any existing format (JOSE, XMLENC,
>>> CMS, OpenPGP, ...) can be made to work. That is, if you ignore the
>>> requirements for reducing the overhead of the encoder/decoder,
>>=20
>> So are we saying that the code footprint of a COSE library will
>> be a lot smaller than for JOSE?
>=20
> My understanding is that the data exchanged is much smaller, not sure =
about the coding footprint or algorithms.

Sorry, I had forgotten that you might not have followed the discussion =
that lead to the CBOR spec in the Apps Area. CBOR's main reason for =
existence is smaller coding size, not smaller data. If you only care =
about smaller data, "gzip of JSON" or some of the recent unstandardized =
formats are probably fine. On the other hand, if you want a format whose =
code for encoding and decoding is smaller than JSON, and that takes less =
power to run than JSON for typical data, that's where CBOR shines.

> Size has been discussed on list (I believe - JOSE) and in meetings and =
has been the main driver.

Data size is a driver for some, and CBOR works well for that, but =
nowhere is it the primary driver for COSE. In order to get good size =
with JSON, or with some of the other unstandardized formats, you need =
much more code overhead, and you get more failure cases when an encoder =
doesn't follow a size-limiting profile of the format. With CBOR, those =
mostly fall out by themselves and, where they don't, checking take less =
code overhead.

>>>> 3) I think PHB has proposed a directly competing approach to
>>>> CBOR/COSE.
>>>=20
>>> It is not "directly competing" in that it inherently takes more
>>> resources for encoding and decoding than even JSON does, whereas =
CBOR
>>> takes less than even JSON.
>>=20
>> Sorry not to have read all of that but why is that "inherently" true?
>=20
> I did get a reasonable answer for this and hopefully someone will =
chime in.  I'll reach back out to the person and respond once I hear =
back - IETF week was a long one.

It is inherently true for many reasons.
- CBOR has no Unicode escaping rules that must be applied to object =
names
- CBOR has no whitespace removal rules
- CBOR has no "real numbers as text" to float rules
and so on.

>>> Further, it would be a fork of JOSE,
>>=20
>> Well, COSE would be a fork of JOSE too I guess.

It could be, but it's not, at least in the document many of us are =
considering. COSE is being informed by he JSON work, but is not at all a =
fork. For example, COSE will likely not follow the JOSE mistake of =
calling HMACs "signatures".

>>> and
>>> it would require the IETF to be willing to extend or revise JSON.
>>=20
>> Fair enough - if PHB's stuff extends JSON so that current JSON
>> parsers would barf, then that is a showstopper.

It does exactly that. It uses currently-illegal signaling as a way of =
introducing the new elements. That's a reasonable design and, in fact, =
the only design that I could think of that is guaranteed to work.

> It's finally been posted in a draft, I believe and it had not been =
before.

Maybe we are talking about different things: Phill posted =
draft-hallambaker-jsonbcd in 2013 and tried to get interest in it, but =
failed.

>  Looking at both answers in parallel will help to get what's needed =
sooner and I'm also interested to see reviews of PHBs work on JOSE as =
part of this process to show due diligence.

Wearing my ex-chair hat of the JSON WG: please don't. Suggesting that =
the IETF should extend or revise JSON would be politically tricky and =
almost none of the people active in the JSON WG wanted to do so.

--Paul Hoffman=


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References: <BL2PR03MB4334B0F0DC3E7494EA9F3E0F5080@BL2PR03MB433.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <E9304CF8-010E-4D43-8537-BFB61234F35D@vpnc.org> <BLUPR03MB4371CF16480E2340BE4E8FFF5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515A144.5060403@tzi.org> <BLUPR03MB437187A8194BEC8E764E101F5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515D7BC.5060408@tzi.org> <BY2PR03MB4427BB45B2C867BACD663E7F5090@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515EAA6.50109@tzi.org> <3E437B95-88E2-4C7B-8AC9-B084FB113362@vpnc.org> <BY2PR03MB44277A917B73D29103F4056F5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <C410E074-2E47-40C9-94D2-0C7568A31E9E@vpnc.org> <BY2PR03MB442FA924D39EF2EEEDE0E1FF5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <032e4abb-fa77-40f5-b9ae-f09435ddbc91@alibaba-inc.com> <7FB72934-9659-40B3-8E12-A272A6658C1E@vpnc.org> <551D099C.2010303@cs.tcd.ie> <D2AD4D28-E453-4E9F-9CE9-B363A27FA5C5@vpnc.org> <551E7509.8060604@cs.tcd.ie> <E117B0B7-1974-435E-A6D8-3DF5B47971B1@gmail.com> <3F4AA5A1-3E70-4BBF-9AFE-0EC89C107888@vpnc.org>
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On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 10:46 AM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> wrote:

> On Apr 3, 2015, at 5:46 AM, Kathleen Moriarty <
> kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Apr 3, 2015, at 7:10 AM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
> wrote:
> >> Sorry, see my discussion with Carsten. I'm not asking about the
> >> BEEP protocol but about the insider group-think aspects that
> >> ended up with the IETF spending a lot of effort on BEEP.
> >
> > Yes, we'd like to avoid this as well.
>
> The proposed charter is not "a lot of effort", certainly not as much as
> BEEP took. BEEP was a format, a transport protocol, and many other things:
> COSE is a format.
>
> It is also not appropriate to say that either BEEP was consumed by
> "insider group-think aspects that ended up with the IETF spending a lot of
> effort". In fact, the opposite was true: BEEP was designed by people not
> familiar with the requirements of the IoT community, but who had a long
> history of doing IETF formats and protocols. Those people thought we could
> impose our new protocol on others. The COSE work, however, is being
> motivated by people within the IoT community.
>
> >>>> 2) Can you explicitly say why JOSE just does not work for some key
> >>>> use-cases? (And I do not mean "is not optimal" I mean "cannot
> >>>> work.")
> >>>
> >>> With those restrictions, probably any existing format (JOSE, XMLENC,
> >>> CMS, OpenPGP, ...) can be made to work. That is, if you ignore the
> >>> requirements for reducing the overhead of the encoder/decoder,
> >>
> >> So are we saying that the code footprint of a COSE library will
> >> be a lot smaller than for JOSE?
> >
> > My understanding is that the data exchanged is much smaller, not sure
> about the coding footprint or algorithms.
>
> Sorry, I had forgotten that you might not have followed the discussion
> that lead to the CBOR spec in the Apps Area. CBOR's main reason for
> existence is smaller coding size, not smaller data. If you only care about
> smaller data, "gzip of JSON" or some of the recent unstandardized formats
> are probably fine. On the other hand, if you want a format whose code for
> encoding and decoding is smaller than JSON, and that takes less power to
> run than JSON for typical data, that's where CBOR shines.
>
> > Size has been discussed on list (I believe - JOSE) and in meetings and
> has been the main driver.
>
> Data size is a driver for some, and CBOR works well for that, but nowhere
> is it the primary driver for COSE. In order to get good size with JSON, or
> with some of the other unstandardized formats, you need much more code
> overhead, and you get more failure cases when an encoder doesn't follow a
> size-limiting profile of the format. With CBOR, those mostly fall out by
> themselves and, where they don't, checking take less code overhead.
>
> >>>> 3) I think PHB has proposed a directly competing approach to
> >>>> CBOR/COSE.
> >>>
> >>> It is not "directly competing" in that it inherently takes more
> >>> resources for encoding and decoding than even JSON does, whereas CBOR
> >>> takes less than even JSON.
> >>
> >> Sorry not to have read all of that but why is that "inherently" true?
> >
> > I did get a reasonable answer for this and hopefully someone will chime
> in.  I'll reach back out to the person and respond once I hear back - IETF
> week was a long one.
>
> It is inherently true for many reasons.
> - CBOR has no Unicode escaping rules that must be applied to object names
> - CBOR has no whitespace removal rules
> - CBOR has no "real numbers as text" to float rules
> and so on.
>
> >>> Further, it would be a fork of JOSE,
> >>
> >> Well, COSE would be a fork of JOSE too I guess.
>
> It could be, but it's not, at least in the document many of us are
> considering. COSE is being informed by he JSON work, but is not at all a
> fork. For example, COSE will likely not follow the JOSE mistake of calling
> HMACs "signatures".
>
> >>> and
> >>> it would require the IETF to be willing to extend or revise JSON.
> >>
> >> Fair enough - if PHB's stuff extends JSON so that current JSON
> >> parsers would barf, then that is a showstopper.
>
> It does exactly that. It uses currently-illegal signaling as a way of
> introducing the new elements. That's a reasonable design and, in fact, the
> only design that I could think of that is guaranteed to work.
>
> > It's finally been posted in a draft, I believe and it had not been
> before.
>
> Maybe we are talking about different things: Phill posted
> draft-hallambaker-jsonbcd in 2013 and tried to get interest in it, but
> failed.
>
> >  Looking at both answers in parallel will help to get what's needed
> sooner and I'm also interested to see reviews of PHBs work on JOSE as part
> of this process to show due diligence.
>
> Wearing my ex-chair hat of the JSON WG: please don't. Suggesting that the
> IETF should extend or revise JSON would be politically tricky and almost
> none of the people active in the JSON WG wanted to do so.
>

Please send pointers to the previous reviews or I'd like to see some posted
on JOSE.  I thought PHB said he posted something last week, maybe I'm wrong
and it's old, but I don't see why you oppose reviews of competing proposals
to show this was done fairly.


>
> --Paul Hoffman




-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen

--001a11c322f6c6cd090512d34264
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 10:46 AM, Paul Hoffman <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paul.hoffman@vpnc.org" target=3D"_blank">paul.hoffman@vpnc.o=
rg</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D""=
>On Apr 3, 2015, at 5:46 AM, Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathle=
en.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com">kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br>
&gt;&gt; On Apr 3, 2015, at 7:10 AM, Stephen Farrell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie">stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</span><span class=3D"">&gt;&gt; Sorry, see my discussion with Carsten. I&#=
39;m not asking about the<br>
&gt;&gt; BEEP protocol but about the insider group-think aspects that<br>
&gt;&gt; ended up with the IETF spending a lot of effort on BEEP.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Yes, we&#39;d like to avoid this as well.<br>
<br>
</span>The proposed charter is not &quot;a lot of effort&quot;, certainly n=
ot as much as BEEP took. BEEP was a format, a transport protocol, and many =
other things: COSE is a format.<br>
<br>
It is also not appropriate to say that either BEEP was consumed by &quot;in=
sider group-think aspects that ended up with the IETF spending a lot of eff=
ort&quot;. In fact, the opposite was true: BEEP was designed by people not =
familiar with the requirements of the IoT community, but who had a long his=
tory of doing IETF formats and protocols. Those people thought we could imp=
ose our new protocol on others. The COSE work, however, is being motivated =
by people within the IoT community.<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 2) Can you explicitly say why JOSE just does not work for =
some key<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; use-cases? (And I do not mean &quot;is not optimal&quot; I=
 mean &quot;cannot<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; work.&quot;)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; With those restrictions, probably any existing format (JOSE, X=
MLENC,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; CMS, OpenPGP, ...) can be made to work. That is, if you ignore=
 the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; requirements for reducing the overhead of the encoder/decoder,=
<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; So are we saying that the code footprint of a COSE library will<br=
>
&gt;&gt; be a lot smaller than for JOSE?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; My understanding is that the data exchanged is much smaller, not sure =
about the coding footprint or algorithms.<br>
<br>
</span>Sorry, I had forgotten that you might not have followed the discussi=
on that lead to the CBOR spec in the Apps Area. CBOR&#39;s main reason for =
existence is smaller coding size, not smaller data. If you only care about =
smaller data, &quot;gzip of JSON&quot; or some of the recent unstandardized=
 formats are probably fine. On the other hand, if you want a format whose c=
ode for encoding and decoding is smaller than JSON, and that takes less pow=
er to run than JSON for typical data, that&#39;s where CBOR shines.<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; Size has been discussed on list (I believe - JOSE) and in meetings and=
 has been the main driver.<br>
<br>
</span>Data size is a driver for some, and CBOR works well for that, but no=
where is it the primary driver for COSE. In order to get good size with JSO=
N, or with some of the other unstandardized formats, you need much more cod=
e overhead, and you get more failure cases when an encoder doesn&#39;t foll=
ow a size-limiting profile of the format. With CBOR, those mostly fall out =
by themselves and, where they don&#39;t, checking take less code overhead.<=
br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 3) I think PHB has proposed a directly competing approach =
to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; CBOR/COSE.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; It is not &quot;directly competing&quot; in that it inherently=
 takes more<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; resources for encoding and decoding than even JSON does, where=
as CBOR<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; takes less than even JSON.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Sorry not to have read all of that but why is that &quot;inherentl=
y&quot; true?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I did get a reasonable answer for this and hopefully someone will chim=
e in.=C2=A0 I&#39;ll reach back out to the person and respond once I hear b=
ack - IETF week was a long one.<br>
<br>
</span>It is inherently true for many reasons.<br>
- CBOR has no Unicode escaping rules that must be applied to object names<b=
r>
- CBOR has no whitespace removal rules<br>
- CBOR has no &quot;real numbers as text&quot; to float rules<br>
and so on.<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Further, it would be a fork of JOSE,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Well, COSE would be a fork of JOSE too I guess.<br>
<br>
</span>It could be, but it&#39;s not, at least in the document many of us a=
re considering. COSE is being informed by he JSON work, but is not at all a=
 fork. For example, COSE will likely not follow the JOSE mistake of calling=
 HMACs &quot;signatures&quot;.<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; it would require the IETF to be willing to extend or revise JS=
ON.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Fair enough - if PHB&#39;s stuff extends JSON so that current JSON=
<br>
&gt;&gt; parsers would barf, then that is a showstopper.<br>
<br>
</span>It does exactly that. It uses currently-illegal signaling as a way o=
f introducing the new elements. That&#39;s a reasonable design and, in fact=
, the only design that I could think of that is guaranteed to work.<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; It&#39;s finally been posted in a draft, I believe and it had not been=
 before.<br>
<br>
</span>Maybe we are talking about different things: Phill posted draft-hall=
ambaker-jsonbcd in 2013 and tried to get interest in it, but failed.<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 Looking at both answers in parallel will help to get what&#39;s =
needed sooner and I&#39;m also interested to see reviews of PHBs work on JO=
SE as part of this process to show due diligence.<br>
<br>
</span>Wearing my ex-chair hat of the JSON WG: please don&#39;t. Suggesting=
 that the IETF should extend or revise JSON would be politically tricky and=
 almost none of the people active in the JSON WG wanted to do so.<br></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>Please send pointers to the previous reviews or =
I&#39;d like to see some posted on JOSE.=C2=A0 I thought PHB said he posted=
 something last week, maybe I&#39;m wrong and it&#39;s old, but I don&#39;t=
 see why you oppose reviews of competing proposals to show this was done fa=
irly.</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
--Paul Hoffman</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><=
br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Be=
st regards,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div></div>
</div></div>

--001a11c322f6c6cd090512d34264--


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To: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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On Apr 3, 2015, at 8:04 AM, Kathleen Moriarty =
<kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> Please send pointers to the previous reviews or I'd like to see some =
posted on JOSE.  I thought PHB said he posted something last week, maybe =
I'm wrong and it's old, but I don't see why you oppose reviews of =
competing proposals to show this was done fairly.

Offline, Kathleen just pointed out her and Stephen's questions were =
about draft-hallambaker-joseunencoded and Phill's assertion at the =
plenary that it alleviates the need for COSE. I thought we were =
discussing draft-hallambaker-jsonbcd, and my earlier comments were about =
that document.

draft-hallambaker-joseunencoded appears to only affect COSE if you =
believe that the only reason for IoT objects not using JOSE is that we =
need smaller messages, and only smaller due to they base64-encoded =
cryptographic material. That's only a small part of COSE, although it is =
the easiest one to see if you are still thinking in terms of JOSE.

draft-hallambaker-joseunencoded does show that it might be useful to use =
non-base64'd data for detached signatures, and COSE already has that as =
a use case. However, COSE won't be limited to binary data that can be =
encoded as UTF8.

--Paul Hoffman=


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Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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On 03/04/15 17:06, Paul Hoffman wrote:
> On Apr 3, 2015, at 8:04 AM, Kathleen Moriarty
> <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Please send pointers to the previous reviews or I'd like to see
>> some posted on JOSE.  I thought PHB said he posted something last
>> week, maybe I'm wrong and it's old, but I don't see why you oppose
>> reviews of competing proposals to show this was done fairly.
>
> Offline, Kathleen just pointed out her and Stephen's questions were
> about draft-hallambaker-joseunencoded and Phill's assertion at the
> plenary that it alleviates the need for COSE. I thought we were
> discussing draft-hallambaker-jsonbcd, and my earlier comments were
> about that document.

To be clear, my questions are not motivated by that. I do agree
with Kathleen though that it'd be wise to have answers to hand.

S.

>

> 
> draft-hallambaker-joseunencoded appears to only affect COSE if you
> believe that the only reason for IoT objects not using JOSE is that
> we need smaller messages, and only smaller due to they base64-encoded
> cryptographic material. That's only a small part of COSE, although it
> is the easiest one to see if you are still thinking in terms of
> JOSE.
> 
> draft-hallambaker-joseunencoded does show that it might be useful to
> use non-base64'd data for detached signatures, and COSE already has
> that as a use case. However, COSE won't be limited to binary data
> that can be encoded as UTF8.
> 
> --Paul Hoffman _______________________________________________ Cose
> mailing list Cose@ietf.org 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> 


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Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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Hi Derek,

I would like to better understand this statement:

On 04/02/2015 04:50 PM, Derek Atkins wrote:
> I cannot use JOSE because of it's size.

I know that you are playing in an extremely constrained space (with
RFIDs) and so I am wondering what specific scenario you have in mind.

Just saying that you cannot use it does not give me enough context to
understand your limitations.

Ciao
Hannes


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References: <BL2PR03MB4334B0F0DC3E7494EA9F3E0F5080@BL2PR03MB433.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <E9304CF8-010E-4D43-8537-BFB61234F35D@vpnc.org> <BLUPR03MB4371CF16480E2340BE4E8FFF5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515A144.5060403@tzi.org> <BLUPR03MB437187A8194BEC8E764E101F5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515D7BC.5060408@tzi.org> <BY2PR03MB4427BB45B2C867BACD663E7F5090@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515EAA6.50109@tzi.org> <3E437B95-88E2-4C7B-8AC9-B084FB113362@vpnc.org> <BY2PR03MB44277A917B73D29103F4056F5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <C410E074-2E47-40C9-94D2-0C7568A31E9E@vpnc.org> <BY2PR03MB442FA924D39EF2EEEDE0E1FF5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <032e4abb-fa77-40f5-b9ae-f09435ddbc91@alibaba-inc.com> <7FB72934-9659-40B3-8E12-A272A6658C1E@vpnc.org> <2f049d52-83e3-4de5-9525-69ff7df67498@alibaba-inc.com> <D142A0F5.2C797%goran.selander@ericsson.com>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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Hi Goeran,

I don't think that these use cases are useful since they are pretty much
independent of the JOSE/CBOR/COSE question.

The interesting question is whether there are cases where you cannot get
your use case to work without having COSE. Do you have such a use case?

Ciao
Hannes

On 04/02/2015 08:05 AM, G=C3=B6ran Selander wrote:
> Regarding this formulation:=20
>=20
> OLD
> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic format=
s
> from JOSE, expressed in CBOR"
>=20
> What I tried to illustrate in the first set of use cases (thanks to
> Carsten uploaded to
>=20
> https://github.com/cose-spec/use-cases/blob/master/use-cases.md)
>=20
> is that the cryptographic formats provided by JOSE may not be
> sufficiently flexible to allow certain optimizations desirable for
> constrained devices, e.g. =20
>=20
>   * Detached AAD
>   * Support for specifying modes which allow integrity protection of
>     other implicit data (EAD)
>   * Support for symmetric key encrypted and private key signed objects
>     without double wrapping
>=20
> Could we make clear that the work may include optimizations to JOSE? Fo=
r
> example
>=20
> NEW
> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic format=
s
> from JOSE and optimizations for constrained device processing, expresse=
d
> in CBOR"
>=20
>=20
> Best regards,
> G=C3=B6ran
>=20
>=20
> From: Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com
> <mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>>
> Date: Thursday 2 April 2015 06:13
> To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org <mailto:cabo@tzi.org>>, Paul Hoffman
> <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org <mailto:paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>>
> Cc: "cose@ietf.org <mailto:cose@ietf.org>" <cose@ietf.org
> <mailto:cose@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
>=20
>     >I have tried to document the progress of the draft charter at
>=20
>     >https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.=
md
>=20
>     Thank you Carsten, very helpful.
>=20
>     >Yes, I also think it is time to submit this to Kathleen.
>=20
>     Fine with me.
>=20
>     @Karen, Mike, Jim, Goeran and others, what do you think?
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>     Thanks.
>=20
>     Kind Regards
>     Kpeng
>=20
>         ---------------------------------------------------------------=
---
>         =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9ACarsten Bormann<cabo@tzi.or=
g <mailto:cabo@tzi.org>>
>         =E6=97=A5=E3=80=80=E6=9C=9F=EF=BC=9A2015=E5=B9=B404=E6=9C=8802=E6=
=97=A5 05:43:31
>         =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9APaul Hoffman<paul.hoffman@v=
pnc.org
>         <mailto:paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>>
>         =E6=8A=84=E3=80=80=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9Acose@ietf.org <mailto:=E9=80=
=81=EF=BC=9Acose@ietf.org><cose@ietf.org
>         <mailto:cose@ietf.org>>
>         =E4=B8=BB=E3=80=80=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9ARe: [Cose] Are we finished =
with the charter?
>=20
>         Because things are getting confusing with all that mail back an=
d
>         forth,
>         I have tried to document the progress of the draft charter at
>=20
>         https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-chart=
er.md
>=20
>         Yes, I also think it is time to submit this to Kathleen.
>=20
>         On a separate note, I have also started to collect use case
>         information
>         (read: put G=C3=B6ran's input into a markdown file). Enjoy (and=

>         contribute) at:
>=20
>         https://github.com/cose-spec/use-cases/blob/master/use-cases.md=

>=20
>         Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>=20
>         [No April Fool jokes were harmed in compositing this message.]
>=20
>         _______________________________________________
>         Cose mailing list
>         Cose@ietf.org <mailto:Cose@ietf.org>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>=20


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Hi Stephen,

you raise good questions. Comments below.


On 04/02/2015 11:19 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote:
>=20
> Hiya,
>=20
> I was chatting with Kathleen about this and I have a couple
> of questions/concerns. Apologies for not being at the JOSE
> session in Dallas to ask 'em at the mic, but I had a conflict.
> Anyway, Kathleen suggested I ask 'em now rather than when we
> get the charter for balloting so here goes....
>=20
> 1) Why is this different from BEEP? BEEP had a lot of backing
> from some core/key IETFers, and consumed a lot of effort for
> them but also for others who (for a short while) got dragged
> into using that day's fashion item. Turned out all that effort
> was wasted as BEEP went nowhere. I'm a bit concerned that
> we're replicating that pattern here. A good answer might be
> to show that folks who aren't "insiders" are really using
> CBOR for something that cannot use JOSE and is unrelated to
> any IETF WG, and that they are doing that without input from
> "insiders." A not so good answer would be of the form "I (an
> insider) am using CBOR for <foo> and want COSE."

You raise interesting points. We are obviously on an optimization track
here and there is the perceived need to re-invent everything (not only
with CBOR but with almost everything). Of course, you could call it
innovation but you can also argue whether this is indeed necessary (and
BEEP provides an interesting lesson here since there is more than just
the number of bits on the wire that are important for a technology
getting adopted). Note that this is not limited to IoT technologies but
more broadly in the IETF in general: just look at HTTP 2 or TLS 1.3.

In the early days of the IoT work in the IETF we said that we could
re-use the IETF protocols but then we started to slowly re-build
everything and I am myself wondering whether we are sometimes going a
bit too far since it is a lot of effort to educate the wider Internet
community about all this new stuff.

I cannot tell you whether we crosses the line of useful optimizations
already or not.

On the other hand we are never asking ourselves these question when big
companies propose something (see all the Web work or the token binding
work). So, why start now? I have often heard the phrase "let the market
decide".

>=20
> 2) Can you explicitly say why JOSE just does not work for
> some key use-cases? (And I do not mean "is not optimal" I
> mean "cannot work.") I'm worried that we've done JOSE because
> of <A: litany of flaws in CMS/XML>, and now we're doing COSE
> because of <B: a litany of flaws in JOSE> and yet a lot the
> same people who described A and developed JOSE seem to be
> involved here, and so presumably agree with B. For those
> folks, what have you learned to change your opinions? Why
> not fix JOSE if fixes are needed? Why won't we see the same
> pattern repeated here and once COSE is done be asked to
> charter DOSE, then EOSE then GOSE etc.?

In the use cases I see in IoT JOSE would of course work; the messages
would just be a bit larger. There are some pretty limited radio
technologies around and of course it would take longer to transmit data.
Whether that matters or not depends on the application context and is
not easy to answer in a general way.

I am less concerned about the code size in this case (to be honest): the
cryptographic algorithms are actually the heavy parts.

I guarantee you that there will be a DOSE, and many other activities
that will follow afterwards. Every-time I thought we reached the end I
was already wrong and there was yet another more fashionable version arou=
nd.

>=20
> 3) I think PHB has proposed a directly competing approach
> to CBOR/COSE. [1] Why is what's proposed here technically
> better than that? (Note: I'm not asking if CBOR is or is
> not more popular than PHB's ideas.) Are there any other
> such directly competing ideas and again, why is this one
> the one to standardise?

I will definitely look at the solution PHB proposed.

>=20
> I'm not sure if answers to the above ought affect charter
> text, but they (or discussion ensuing) will affect how I at
> least ballot on a charter. I've no idea if other ADs feel
> similarly or not. (If it helped, I could ask.)
>=20
> And lastly for context, I'm not "against" this work, but I
> am uneasy about it - I think maybe it's being done too soon
> and we'd perhaps be better off seeing if CBOR gets real
> traction for uses that really cannot use JOSE. In general I
> do think it is a good thing to have security primitives
> defined for transports or formats that see widespread usage,
> but I'm worried we may be wasting effort here.

I felt a bit uneasy myself, not necessarily about COSE, but rather how
CBOR was introduced to the IETF and how the show was run so far with COSE=
=2E

I am a bit unclear what motivates various proponents to participate in
this work. It can hardly be IoT.

Ciao
Hannes

>=20
> Cheers,
> S.
>=20
> [1] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/jose/current/msg05034.html
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>=20


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From nobody Fri Apr  3 12:35:06 2015
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Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 15:35:00 -0400
From: "Derek Atkins" <derek@ihtfp.com>
To: "Hannes Tschofenig" <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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Hi Hannes,

On Fri, April 3, 2015 2:34 pm, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi Derek,
>
> I would like to better understand this statement:
>
> On 04/02/2015 04:50 PM, Derek Atkins wrote:
>> I cannot use JOSE because of it's size.
>
> I know that you are playing in an extremely constrained space (with
> RFIDs) and so I am wondering what specific scenario you have in mind.

It's a bit hard to go into too much detail, but I need to be able to store
multiply-signed (nested) documents on devices that have, maybe, 5KB of
storage space total (and that 5KB needs to include my code, crypto keys,
and other ancillary data as well).  So in my environment every byte
matters.

> Just saying that you cannot use it does not give me enough context to
> understand your limitations.

There are two aspects here.  First, parsing strings takes significantly
more code than parsing binary.  Second, storing strings takes
significantly more space than storing integers.  *COULD* I use JWS+JSON? 
Arguably, yes, but as-written after nesting 10 signatures I've now
expanded the document by 33% 10 times.  That blows up very fast.

Now, going back to PHB's "encode as binary" is a step in the right
direction, so I don't get that 33% bloat, but I still have to deal with
string parsing vs binary parsing.

I'm really not sure, short of having you sign an NDA to explain my full
situation, how to give you more information.

I'll note that I'm still in the design phase of my project; I don't
actually have code today, which is yet another reason I'm trying to find
the best fit.  I don't have any history I have to maintain or
compatibility issues.

Hope this helps,

> Ciao
> Hannes

-derek
-- 
       Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
       derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
       Computer and Internet Security Consultant


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Hiya,

Not answering on all points, just where I think I can add to
the discussion...

On 03/04/15 19:38, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi Stephen,
> 
> you raise good questions. Comments below.
> 
> 
> On 04/02/2015 11:19 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote:
>>
>> Hiya,
>>
>> I was chatting with Kathleen about this and I have a couple
>> of questions/concerns. Apologies for not being at the JOSE
>> session in Dallas to ask 'em at the mic, but I had a conflict.
>> Anyway, Kathleen suggested I ask 'em now rather than when we
>> get the charter for balloting so here goes....
>>
>> 1) Why is this different from BEEP? BEEP had a lot of backing
>> from some core/key IETFers, and consumed a lot of effort for
>> them but also for others who (for a short while) got dragged
>> into using that day's fashion item. Turned out all that effort
>> was wasted as BEEP went nowhere. I'm a bit concerned that
>> we're replicating that pattern here. A good answer might be
>> to show that folks who aren't "insiders" are really using
>> CBOR for something that cannot use JOSE and is unrelated to
>> any IETF WG, and that they are doing that without input from
>> "insiders." A not so good answer would be of the form "I (an
>> insider) am using CBOR for <foo> and want COSE."
> 
> You raise interesting points. We are obviously on an optimization track
> here and there is the perceived need to re-invent everything (not only
> with CBOR but with almost everything). Of course, you could call it
> innovation but you can also argue whether this is indeed necessary (and
> BEEP provides an interesting lesson here since there is more than just
> the number of bits on the wire that are important for a technology
> getting adopted). Note that this is not limited to IoT technologies but
> more broadly in the IETF in general: just look at HTTP 2 or TLS 1.3.
> 
> In the early days of the IoT work in the IETF we said that we could
> re-use the IETF protocols but then we started to slowly re-build
> everything and I am myself wondering whether we are sometimes going a
> bit too far since it is a lot of effort to educate the wider Internet
> community about all this new stuff.
> 
> I cannot tell you whether we crosses the line of useful optimizations
> already or not.

Yep. I feel similarly. But I also very much respect folks who do not
feel that unease.

> 
> On the other hand we are never asking ourselves these question when big
> companies propose something (see all the Web work or the token binding
> work). So, why start now? I have often heard the phrase "let the market
> decide".

The web is different right now. There are a very few browser
implementers with significant marker share, a chunk of whom need
to be on board for most web innovations, if those are to get traction.
And if one does not get that kind of browser buy-in, then there is
not much commercial value to an RFC, (of that kind) except if
it's written based on other motives. So yes, that does currently give
the browser implementers some power here. Mind you we both remember the
previous generations of N-hundred pound gorillas, many of whom are not
so gorilla-like any more, so I expect the same will happen in the
browser case, in (not too much) time. (If they're wise, they will
realise their power is temporally limited, but I've no idea why this
crop of developers ought be wiser than previous ones;-)

The above is a reason why chartering tokbind is currently "important"
but HOBA (as a non-random example:-) is not. But that actually is ok -
a big part of what we're about here relates to impact. In general, we
do, and should, prefer to not work on stuff that won't matter. And
that's partly why questioning COSE is fair game IMO.

> 
>>
>> 2) Can you explicitly say why JOSE just does not work for
>> some key use-cases? (And I do not mean "is not optimal" I
>> mean "cannot work.") I'm worried that we've done JOSE because
>> of <A: litany of flaws in CMS/XML>, and now we're doing COSE
>> because of <B: a litany of flaws in JOSE> and yet a lot the
>> same people who described A and developed JOSE seem to be
>> involved here, and so presumably agree with B. For those
>> folks, what have you learned to change your opinions? Why
>> not fix JOSE if fixes are needed? Why won't we see the same
>> pattern repeated here and once COSE is done be asked to
>> charter DOSE, then EOSE then GOSE etc.?
> 
> In the use cases I see in IoT JOSE would of course work; the messages
> would just be a bit larger. There are some pretty limited radio
> technologies around and of course it would take longer to transmit data.
> Whether that matters or not depends on the application context and is
> not easy to answer in a general way.

I like the way the above is stated. JOSE can in fact work, but
there is for sure a (possibly niche? possibly mainstream?) set
of use-cases where JOSE does not work.

The question here is how to address that - via a tweak to JOSE or
starting over, the latter being how I read the COSE proposal.

> I am less concerned about the code size in this case (to be honest): the
> cryptographic algorithms are actually the heavy parts.

Code size is a concern for me here, not not because I care about code
size:-) If the best way to reduce code size is via fewer basic crypto
functions, then that can and has lead to "interesting" crypto choices.
(CCM vs GCM for example, and perhaps the idea oF AES based MACs.) That
kind of choice can impact a lot on interoperability and security and
privacy.

So from an inventing-cryto-stuff-is-bad perspective, that code size
is an issue for this group is a source of inevitable potential concern.

> 
> I guarantee you that there will be a DOSE, 

Sigh. But yeah, probably.

> and many other activities
> that will follow afterwards. Every-time I thought we reached the end I
> was already wrong and there was yet another more fashionable version around.
> 
>>
>> 3) I think PHB has proposed a directly competing approach
>> to CBOR/COSE. [1] Why is what's proposed here technically
>> better than that? (Note: I'm not asking if CBOR is or is
>> not more popular than PHB's ideas.) Are there any other
>> such directly competing ideas and again, why is this one
>> the one to standardise?
> 
> I will definitely look at the solution PHB proposed.

Great, thanks. And I think others are doing similarly. In fact I
think this part is now in-hand. (But please do review stuff.)

> 
>>
>> I'm not sure if answers to the above ought affect charter
>> text, but they (or discussion ensuing) will affect how I at
>> least ballot on a charter. I've no idea if other ADs feel
>> similarly or not. (If it helped, I could ask.)
>>
>> And lastly for context, I'm not "against" this work, but I
>> am uneasy about it - I think maybe it's being done too soon
>> and we'd perhaps be better off seeing if CBOR gets real
>> traction for uses that really cannot use JOSE. In general I
>> do think it is a good thing to have security primitives
>> defined for transports or formats that see widespread usage,
>> but I'm worried we may be wasting effort here.
> 
> I felt a bit uneasy myself, not necessarily about COSE, but rather how
> CBOR was introduced to the IETF and how the show was run so far with COSE.
> 
> I am a bit unclear what motivates various proponents to participate in
> this work. It can hardly be IoT.

So ask 'em! (I thought that bit was clear tbh.)

S.


> 
> Ciao
> Hannes
> 
>>
>> Cheers,
>> S.
>>
>> [1] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/jose/current/msg05034.html
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Cose mailing list
>> Cose@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> 


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From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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Subject: [Cose] "Optimization track", "re-inventing" (Re:  Are we finished with the charter?)
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Hi Hannes,

Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> We are obviously on an optimization track
> here and there is the perceived need to re-invent everything (not only
> with CBOR but with almost everything).

Thank you for documenting a common misconception so clearly.

Yes, to people less familiar with the matter it may seem that way.

Let me pick an example I am very familiar with.  6LoWPAN "re-invented"
header compression.  Twice.

There had been a whole working group (ROHC) that defined an extensible
header compression scheme (also called ROHC).  [Which had been a
"re-invention" of RFC 2507/2508, based on increased interest in
optimistic compression; itself a "re-invention" of RFC 1144 to enable
IPv6.  But I digress.]  When we were defining 6LoWPAN, we quickly found
that ROHC was too complex for constrained devices.  More importantly,
the underlying concept, flow-state based compression, didn't match the
actual use case very well.  So we tried stateless compression in RFC
4944, and then invented (no quotes here) area context state and redid
the compression in RFC 6282, adding a simple distribution protocol for
the state in RFC 6775.

On the way, I was at least a dozen times asked by area directors why we
didn't just use ROHC.  A reasonable question from someone less familiar
with header compression (and one can't really expect area directors to
be familiar both with header compression and with constrained nodes).
I'm pretty sure that the repeated explanations why that wasn't a useful
way forward helped shape our understanding of our own problem, which
ultimately enabled the invention of area context state.  Push-back is
good.  But, after a short while, nobody accused us of "re-inventing"
header compression any more, even if we did to a certain extent.

Another important observation.  Header compression of course always was
an optimization.  An *enabling* optimization, both for VoIP (ROHC) and
constrained node networks (6LoWPAN).  However, ROHC is much more
"optimized" than 6LoWPAN header compression.  Compared to previous work,
6LoWPAN header compression was a major simplification, not a further
optimization.  Just as it should be: Simplification is at the heart of
the constrained node network cluster of work [1].  As opposed to
"optimization" in the usual sense, which connotes just adding another
layer of complexity.

GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten

[1]: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/slides/plenaryt-7.pdf


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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: "'Paul Hoffman'" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>, <cose@ietf.org>
References: <BL2PR03MB4334B0F0DC3E7494EA9F3E0F5080@BL2PR03MB433.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <E9304CF8-010E-4D43-8537-BFB61234F35D@vpnc.org> <BLUPR03MB4371CF16480E2340BE4E8FFF5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515A144.5060403@tzi.org> <BLUPR03MB437187A8194BEC8E764E101F5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <, > <5515D7BC.5060408@tzi.org> <BY2PR03MB4427BB45B2C867BACD663E7F5090@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515EAA6.50109@tzi.org> <3E437B95-88E2-4C7B-8AC9-B084FB113362@vpnc.org> <BY2PR03MB44277A917B73D29103F4056F5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <C410E074-2E47-40C9-94D2-0C7568A31E9E@vpnc.org> <, > <BY2PR03MB442FA924D39EF2EEEDE0E1FF5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <032e4abb-fa77-40f5-b9ae-f09435ddbc91@alibaba-inc.com> <7FB72934-9659-40B3-8E12-A272A6658C1E@vpnc.org>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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I can easily live with the charter as it currently stands.

There are three things which we might want to include in the charter:

1.  Since constrained environments are one of the primary targets for this
work,
message size and code size are to be considered whenever decisions are made.

2.  We will coordinate with the ACE and CoAP working groups during last
calls of the working group documents.

3.  The working group will not deal with issues around key management and
the binding of identities and keys, the working group is only focused on
secure message formatting.

As I said to start with, I don't feel strongly that any of these issues need
to be in the charter, I am just raising them as issues.

Jim


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Paul Hoffman
> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 2:18 PM
> To: cose@ietf.org
> Subject: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
> 
> There have been no messages for a few days; maybe we are done. Mike
> wants something about a JWK mapping, but I don't see any other support for
> it.
> 
> Oh, and you need to change "March" to "April" below because we already ran
> through that...
> 
> Time to submit it to Kathleen?
> 
> --Paul Hoffman
> 
> > On Mar 29, 2015, at 8:11 AM, Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for the input.
> >
> > Based on the discussion, now the draft charter 2015-03-29 is:
> >
> > # CBOR Object Signing and Encryption (COSE)
> >
> > ## Charter for Working Group
> >
> > Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise
> > binary format for the serialization of data structured to an extended
> > version of the JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR was to make
> > this data model more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained
> > node networks (RFC 7228).
> >
> > The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations
> > for message authentication (MACs), encryption, and digital signatures,
> > using JSON representation. This working group will reuse the work done
> > by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of CBOR. This will rely on
> > the JOSE registries, which, where this provides additional efficiency,
> > will be expanded with additional information.
> >
> > The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from
> > or to JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compabitility
> > which will enable some simplification in the adaptation process.
> >
> > The WG will have two deliverables:
> > - a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
> > formats from JOSE, expressed in CBOR;
> > - registration for algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate
> > for constrained environments.
> >
> > The Working Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for its
> > work, but does not intend to publish this as an RFC.
> >
> > ## Milestones
> >
> > * March 2015: Submit COSE specification as a WG item
> >
> > * April 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as a WG
> > item
> >
> > * June 2015: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for publication as
> > a Proposed Standard
> >
> > * July 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to the
> > IESG, for publication as a Proposed Standard
> >
> > I will put the draft charter to a wiki page, so we can track changes
from that.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


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Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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Hi Jim,

Two questions below.

On 04/04/15 19:31, Jim Schaad wrote:
> I can easily live with the charter as it currently stands.
> 
> There are three things which we might want to include in the charter:
> 
> 1.  Since constrained environments are one of the primary targets for this
> work,
> message size and code size are to be considered whenever decisions are made.

Code-size minimisation can call for novel crypto mechanisms.
Say, (inventing one just for the sake of an example), a node
implements chacha20-poly1305 as an AEAD cipher and also has a
need for a MAC, then is this proposed WG going to take on the
crypto work of defining such a thing? I would hope not. How
is it proposed to handle such cases?

> 2.  We will coordinate with the ACE and CoAP working groups during last
> calls of the working group documents.
> 
> 3.  The working group will not deal with issues around key management and
> the binding of identities and keys, the working group is only focused on
> secure message formatting.

You did not use the term CBOR above.

Do you see this proposed WG only defining crypto based mechanisms
for CBOR, or more generally aiming to be independent of how the
platform handles structured data? I assume (based on the list name
and proponents) that the proposal here is only to consider CBOR
but that might be a bad assumption.

S.

> 
> As I said to start with, I don't feel strongly that any of these issues need
> to be in the charter, I am just raising them as issues.
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Paul Hoffman
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 2:18 PM
>> To: cose@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
>>
>> There have been no messages for a few days; maybe we are done. Mike
>> wants something about a JWK mapping, but I don't see any other support for
>> it.
>>
>> Oh, and you need to change "March" to "April" below because we already ran
>> through that...
>>
>> Time to submit it to Kathleen?
>>
>> --Paul Hoffman
>>
>>> On Mar 29, 2015, at 8:11 AM, Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks for the input.
>>>
>>> Based on the discussion, now the draft charter 2015-03-29 is:
>>>
>>> # CBOR Object Signing and Encryption (COSE)
>>>
>>> ## Charter for Working Group
>>>
>>> Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise
>>> binary format for the serialization of data structured to an extended
>>> version of the JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR was to make
>>> this data model more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained
>>> node networks (RFC 7228).
>>>
>>> The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations
>>> for message authentication (MACs), encryption, and digital signatures,
>>> using JSON representation. This working group will reuse the work done
>>> by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of CBOR. This will rely on
>>> the JOSE registries, which, where this provides additional efficiency,
>>> will be expanded with additional information.
>>>
>>> The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from
>>> or to JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compabitility
>>> which will enable some simplification in the adaptation process.
>>>
>>> The WG will have two deliverables:
>>> - a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
>>> formats from JOSE, expressed in CBOR;
>>> - registration for algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate
>>> for constrained environments.
>>>
>>> The Working Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for its
>>> work, but does not intend to publish this as an RFC.
>>>
>>> ## Milestones
>>>
>>> * March 2015: Submit COSE specification as a WG item
>>>
>>> * April 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as a WG
>>> item
>>>
>>> * June 2015: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for publication as
>>> a Proposed Standard
>>>
>>> * July 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to the
>>> IESG, for publication as a Proposed Standard
>>>
>>> I will put the draft charter to a wiki page, so we can track changes
> from that.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Cose mailing list
>> Cose@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> 
> 


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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: "'Stephen Farrell'" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, "'Paul Hoffman'" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>, <cose@ietf.org>
References: <BL2PR03MB4334B0F0DC3E7494EA9F3E0F5080@BL2PR03MB433.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <E9304CF8-010E-4D43-8537-BFB61234F35D@vpnc.org> <BLUPR03MB4371CF16480E2340BE4E8FFF5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515A144.5060403@tzi.org> <BLUPR03MB437187A8194BEC8E764E101F5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <, > <5515D7BC.5060408@tzi.org> <BY2PR03MB4427BB45B2C867BACD663E7F5090@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515EAA6.50109@tzi.org> <3E437B95-88E2-4C7B-8AC9-B084FB113362@vpnc.org> <BY2PR03MB44277A917B73D29103F4056F5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <C410E074-2E47-40C9-94D2-0C7568A31E9E@vpnc.org> <, > <BY2PR03MB442FA924D39EF2EEEDE0E1FF5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <032e4abb-fa77-40f5-b9ae-f09435ddbc91@alibaba-inc.com> <7FB72934-9659-40B3-8E12-A272A6658C1E@vpnc.org> <015901d06f05$a2f6b060$e8e41120$@augustcellars.com> <55203FC9.4050107@cs.tcd.ie>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie]
> Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2015 12:47 PM
> To: Jim Schaad; 'Paul Hoffman'; cose@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
>=20
>=20
> Hi Jim,
>=20
> Two questions below.
>=20
> On 04/04/15 19:31, Jim Schaad wrote:
> > I can easily live with the charter as it currently stands.
> >
> > There are three things which we might want to include in the =
charter:
> >
> > 1.  Since constrained environments are one of the primary targets =
for
> > this work, message size and code size are to be considered whenever
> > decisions are made.
>=20
> Code-size minimisation can call for novel crypto mechanisms.
> Say, (inventing one just for the sake of an example), a node =
implements
> chacha20-poly1305 as an AEAD cipher and also has a need for a MAC, =
then is
> this proposed WG going to take on the crypto work of defining such a =
thing? I
> would hope not. How is it proposed to handle such cases?

It has already been stated that we are going to do some of this in the =
charter.  After all, there is a work item of doing some constrained =
appropriate algorithms to be done in a draft.  I would not expect that =
chacha20-poly1305 would so up here.  However it is possible that there =
may be a call for doing the new EC curve and possible a static-static =
version of ECDH as part of this work.  Again I don't know that would be =
the case and I would probably start by arguing that it should be done in =
a different group as the first step.  Only those things that are well =
understood and deemed necessary should be done now.

>=20
> > 2.  We will coordinate with the ACE and CoAP working groups during
> > last calls of the working group documents.
> >
> > 3.  The working group will not deal with issues around key =
management
> > and the binding of identities and keys, the working group is only
> > focused on secure message formatting.
>=20
> You did not use the term CBOR above.
>=20
> Do you see this proposed WG only defining crypto based mechanisms for
> CBOR, or more generally aiming to be independent of how the platform
> handles structured data? I assume (based on the list name and =
proponents)
> that the proposal here is only to consider CBOR but that might be a =
bad
> assumption.

I would be more than happy to put CBOR into that, I kind of assumed it =
was implicit from the rest of the charter.  I was thinking in terms of =
not getting into key management or certificates would be good statements =
to have in the charter for limiting purposes.  At some point the ACE and =
CoAP groups are going to need to figure out how to do both of these and =
I wanted it to be clear it was not something this WG was going to deal =
with.

Jim

>=20
> S.
>=20
> >
> > As I said to start with, I don't feel strongly that any of these
> > issues need to be in the charter, I am just raising them as issues.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Paul Hoffman
> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 2:18 PM
> >> To: cose@ietf.org
> >> Subject: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
> >>
> >> There have been no messages for a few days; maybe we are done. Mike
> >> wants something about a JWK mapping, but I don't see any other
> >> support for it.
> >>
> >> Oh, and you need to change "March" to "April" below because we
> >> already ran through that...
> >>
> >> Time to submit it to Kathleen?
> >>
> >> --Paul Hoffman
> >>
> >>> On Mar 29, 2015, at 8:11 AM, Kepeng Li =
<kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the input.
> >>>
> >>> Based on the discussion, now the draft charter 2015-03-29 is:
> >>>
> >>> # CBOR Object Signing and Encryption (COSE)
> >>>
> >>> ## Charter for Working Group
> >>>
> >>> Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise
> >>> binary format for the serialization of data structured to an
> >>> extended version of the JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR =
was
> >>> to make this data model more amenable to constrained nodes and
> >>> constrained node networks (RFC 7228).
> >>>
> >>> The JOSE working group recently completed producing =
representations
> >>> for message authentication (MACs), encryption, and digital
> >>> signatures, using JSON representation. This working group will =
reuse
> >>> the work done by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of CBOR. =
This
> >>> will rely on the JOSE registries, which, where this provides
> >>> additional efficiency, will be expanded with additional =
information.
> >>>
> >>> The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible =
from
> >>> or to JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit
> >>> compabitility which will enable some simplification in the =
adaptation
> process.
> >>>
> >>> The WG will have two deliverables:
> >>> - a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
> >>> formats from JOSE, expressed in CBOR;
> >>> - registration for algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are
> >>> appropriate for constrained environments.
> >>>
> >>> The Working Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for =
its
> >>> work, but does not intend to publish this as an RFC.
> >>>
> >>> ## Milestones
> >>>
> >>> * March 2015: Submit COSE specification as a WG item
> >>>
> >>> * April 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as a =
WG
> >>> item
> >>>
> >>> * June 2015: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for =
publication
> >>> as a Proposed Standard
> >>>
> >>> * July 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to the
> >>> IESG, for publication as a Proposed Standard
> >>>
> >>> I will put the draft charter to a wiki page, so we can track =
changes
> > from that.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Cose mailing list
> >> Cose@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cose mailing list
> > Cose@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >
> >


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Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2015 23:15:12 +0100
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>,  'Paul Hoffman' <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>, cose@ietf.org
References: <BL2PR03MB4334B0F0DC3E7494EA9F3E0F5080@BL2PR03MB433.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <E9304CF8-010E-4D43-8537-BFB61234F35D@vpnc.org> <BLUPR03MB4371CF16480E2340BE4E8FFF5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515A144.5060403@tzi.org> <BLUPR03MB437187A8194BEC8E764E101F5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <, > <5515D7BC.5060408@tzi.org> <BY2PR03MB4427BB45B2C867BACD663E7F5090@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515EAA6.50109@tzi.org> <3E437B95-88E2-4C7B-8AC9-B084FB113362@vpnc.org> <BY2PR03MB44277A917B73D29103F4056F5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <C410E074-2E47-40C9-94D2-0C7568A31E9E@vpnc.org> <, > <BY2PR03MB442FA924D39EF2EEEDE0E1FF5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <032e4abb-fa77-40f5-b9ae-f09435ddbc91@alibaba-inc.com> <7FB72934-9659-40B3-8E12-A272A6658C1E@vpnc.org> <015901d06f05$a2f6b060$e8e41120$@augustcellars.com> <55203FC9.4050107@cs.tcd.ie> <000901d06f21$9f90b850$deb228f0$@augustcellars.com>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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Hiya,

On 04/04/15 22:52, Jim Schaad wrote:
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Farrell
>> [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2015
>> 12:47 PM To: Jim Schaad; 'Paul Hoffman'; cose@ietf.org Subject: Re:
>> [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Jim,
>> 
>> Two questions below.
>> 
>> On 04/04/15 19:31, Jim Schaad wrote:
>>> I can easily live with the charter as it currently stands.
>>> 
>>> There are three things which we might want to include in the
>>> charter:
>>> 
>>> 1.  Since constrained environments are one of the primary targets
>>> for this work, message size and code size are to be considered
>>> whenever decisions are made.
>> 
>> Code-size minimisation can call for novel crypto mechanisms. Say,
>> (inventing one just for the sake of an example), a node implements 
>> chacha20-poly1305 as an AEAD cipher and also has a need for a MAC,
>> then is this proposed WG going to take on the crypto work of
>> defining such a thing? I would hope not. How is it proposed to
>> handle such cases?
> 
> It has already been stated that we are going to do some of this in
> the charter.  After all, there is a work item of doing some
> constrained appropriate algorithms to be done in a draft.  I would
> not expect that chacha20-poly1305 would so up here.  However it is
> possible that there may be a call for doing the new EC curve and
> possible a static-static version of ECDH as part of this work.  Again
> I don't know that would be the case and I would probably start by
> arguing that it should be done in a different group as the first
> step.  Only those things that are well understood and deemed
> necessary should be done now.

Cool, I think we agree.

So where I think we'd want to (as usual) draw the line is before
we get into the putative WG doing novel crypto. For example, I'd
say that defining a way to use 25519 or 448 for static-static ECDH
would be fine, but defining a new signature scheme would not.
Things like that latter really would need to get proper crypto
review. (That could be done with or via CFRG or some other way,
as usual.)

That said, I would expect there to be at least some demands for
novel crypto arising here, (for code footprint reasons) so I'd
say it'd be good for a charter to be as explicit as possible
about that.

> 
>> 
>>> 2.  We will coordinate with the ACE and CoAP working groups
>>> during last calls of the working group documents.
>>> 
>>> 3.  The working group will not deal with issues around key
>>> management and the binding of identities and keys, the working
>>> group is only focused on secure message formatting.
>> 
>> You did not use the term CBOR above.
>> 
>> Do you see this proposed WG only defining crypto based mechanisms
>> for CBOR, or more generally aiming to be independent of how the
>> platform handles structured data? I assume (based on the list name
>> and proponents) that the proposal here is only to consider CBOR but
>> that might be a bad assumption.
> 
> I would be more than happy to put CBOR into that, I kind of assumed
> it was implicit from the rest of the charter.  I was thinking in
> terms of not getting into key management or certificates would be
> good statements to have in the charter for limiting purposes.  At
> some point the ACE and CoAP groups are going to need to figure out
> how to do both of these and I wanted it to be clear it was not
> something this WG was going to deal with.

Ok, thanks. So that brings us (well, me:-) back to the still
unanswered question as to whether or not CBOR really has enough
usage to warrant forming a WG dedicated to crypto-for-CBOR. If
it does, the answer is easy. If not, what is best to do is
less clear for me.

S.


> 
> Jim
> 
>> 
>> S.
>> 
>>> 
>>> As I said to start with, I don't feel strongly that any of these 
>>> issues need to be in the charter, I am just raising them as
>>> issues.
>>> 
>>> Jim
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Cose
>>>> [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Paul Hoffman Sent:
>>>> Wednesday, April 01, 2015 2:18 PM To: cose@ietf.org Subject:
>>>> [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
>>>> 
>>>> There have been no messages for a few days; maybe we are done.
>>>> Mike wants something about a JWK mapping, but I don't see any
>>>> other support for it.
>>>> 
>>>> Oh, and you need to change "March" to "April" below because we 
>>>> already ran through that...
>>>> 
>>>> Time to submit it to Kathleen?
>>>> 
>>>> --Paul Hoffman
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 29, 2015, at 8:11 AM, Kepeng Li
>>>>> <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks for the input.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Based on the discussion, now the draft charter 2015-03-29
>>>>> is:
>>>>> 
>>>>> # CBOR Object Signing and Encryption (COSE)
>>>>> 
>>>>> ## Charter for Working Group
>>>>> 
>>>>> Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a
>>>>> concise binary format for the serialization of data
>>>>> structured to an extended version of the JSON data model. One
>>>>> motivation for CBOR was to make this data model more amenable
>>>>> to constrained nodes and constrained node networks (RFC
>>>>> 7228).
>>>>> 
>>>>> The JOSE working group recently completed producing
>>>>> representations for message authentication (MACs),
>>>>> encryption, and digital signatures, using JSON
>>>>> representation. This working group will reuse the work done
>>>>> by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of CBOR. This will
>>>>> rely on the JOSE registries, which, where this provides 
>>>>> additional efficiency, will be expanded with additional
>>>>> information.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The resulting formats will not be cryptographically
>>>>> convertible from or to JOSE formats. This lack of a need for
>>>>> bit-for-bit compabitility which will enable some
>>>>> simplification in the adaptation
>> process.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The WG will have two deliverables: - a standards-track
>>>>> specification covering the same cryptographic formats from
>>>>> JOSE, expressed in CBOR; - registration for algorithms (such
>>>>> as AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate for constrained
>>>>> environments.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The Working Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases
>>>>> for its work, but does not intend to publish this as an RFC.
>>>>> 
>>>>> ## Milestones
>>>>> 
>>>>> * March 2015: Submit COSE specification as a WG item
>>>>> 
>>>>> * April 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms
>>>>> as a WG item
>>>>> 
>>>>> * June 2015: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for
>>>>> publication as a Proposed Standard
>>>>> 
>>>>> * July 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms
>>>>> to the IESG, for publication as a Proposed Standard
>>>>> 
>>>>> I will put the draft charter to a wiki page, so we can track
>>>>> changes
>>> from that.
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________ Cose mailing
>>>> list Cose@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________ Cose mailing
>>> list Cose@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ Cose mailing list 
> Cose@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> 
> 


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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: "'Stephen Farrell'" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, "'Paul Hoffman'" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>, <cose@ietf.org>
References: <BL2PR03MB4334B0F0DC3E7494EA9F3E0F5080@BL2PR03MB433.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <E9304CF8-010E-4D43-8537-BFB61234F35D@vpnc.org> <BLUPR03MB4371CF16480E2340BE4E8FFF5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515A144.5060403@tzi.org> <BLUPR03MB437187A8194BEC8E764E101F5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <, > <5515D7BC.5060408@tzi.org> <BY2PR03MB4427BB45B2C867BACD663E7F5090@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515EAA6.50109@tzi.org> <3E437B95-88E2-4C7B-8AC9-B084FB113362@vpnc.org> <BY2PR03MB44277A917B73D29103F4056F5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <C410E074-2E47-40C9-94D2-0C7568A31E9E@vpnc.org> <, > <BY2PR03MB442FA924D39EF2EEEDE0E1FF5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <032e4abb-fa77-40f5-b9ae-f09435ddbc91@alibaba-inc.com> <7FB72934-9659-40B3-8E12-A272A6658C1E@vpnc.org> <015901d06f05$a2f6b060$e8e41120$@augustcellars.com> <55203FC9.4050107@cs.tcd.ie> <000901d06f21$9f90b850$deb228f0$@augustcellars.com> <55206270.2050903@cs.tcd.ie>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie]
> Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2015 3:15 PM
> To: Jim Schaad; 'Paul Hoffman'; cose@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
>=20
>=20
> Hiya,
>=20
> On 04/04/15 22:52, Jim Schaad wrote:
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Farrell
> >> [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2015
> >> 12:47 PM To: Jim Schaad; 'Paul Hoffman'; cose@ietf.org Subject: Re:
> >> [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Jim,
> >>
> >> Two questions below.
> >>
> >> On 04/04/15 19:31, Jim Schaad wrote:
> >>> I can easily live with the charter as it currently stands.
> >>>
> >>> There are three things which we might want to include in the
> >>> charter:
> >>>
> >>> 1.  Since constrained environments are one of the primary targets
> >>> for this work, message size and code size are to be considered
> >>> whenever decisions are made.
> >>
> >> Code-size minimisation can call for novel crypto mechanisms. Say,
> >> (inventing one just for the sake of an example), a node implements
> >> chacha20-poly1305 as an AEAD cipher and also has a need for a MAC,
> >> then is this proposed WG going to take on the crypto work of =
defining
> >> such a thing? I would hope not. How is it proposed to handle such
> >> cases?
> >
> > It has already been stated that we are going to do some of this in =
the
> > charter.  After all, there is a work item of doing some constrained
> > appropriate algorithms to be done in a draft.  I would not expect =
that
> > chacha20-poly1305 would so up here.  However it is possible that =
there
> > may be a call for doing the new EC curve and possible a =
static-static
> > version of ECDH as part of this work.  Again I don't know that would
> > be the case and I would probably start by arguing that it should be
> > done in a different group as the first step.  Only those things that
> > are well understood and deemed necessary should be done now.
>=20
> Cool, I think we agree.
>=20
> So where I think we'd want to (as usual) draw the line is before we =
get into the
> putative WG doing novel crypto. For example, I'd say that defining a =
way to
> use 25519 or 448 for static-static ECDH would be fine, but defining a =
new
> signature scheme would not.
> Things like that latter really would need to get proper crypto review. =
(That
> could be done with or via CFRG or some other way, as usual.)
>=20
> That said, I would expect there to be at least some demands for novel =
crypto
> arising here, (for code footprint reasons) so I'd say it'd be good for =
a charter
> to be as explicit as possible about that.

Novel crypto is something that I would run away from as quick as =
possible.   I really don't want to get into that.  I have a hard enough =
time understanding some parts of "normal" crypto.

Jim

>=20
> >
> >>
> >>> 2.  We will coordinate with the ACE and CoAP working groups during
> >>> last calls of the working group documents.
> >>>
> >>> 3.  The working group will not deal with issues around key
> >>> management and the binding of identities and keys, the working =
group
> >>> is only focused on secure message formatting.
> >>
> >> You did not use the term CBOR above.
> >>
> >> Do you see this proposed WG only defining crypto based mechanisms =
for
> >> CBOR, or more generally aiming to be independent of how the =
platform
> >> handles structured data? I assume (based on the list name and
> >> proponents) that the proposal here is only to consider CBOR but =
that
> >> might be a bad assumption.
> >
> > I would be more than happy to put CBOR into that, I kind of assumed =
it
> > was implicit from the rest of the charter.  I was thinking in terms =
of
> > not getting into key management or certificates would be good
> > statements to have in the charter for limiting purposes.  At some
> > point the ACE and CoAP groups are going to need to figure out how to
> > do both of these and I wanted it to be clear it was not something =
this
> > WG was going to deal with.
>=20
> Ok, thanks. So that brings us (well, me:-) back to the still =
unanswered question
> as to whether or not CBOR really has enough usage to warrant forming a =
WG
> dedicated to crypto-for-CBOR. If it does, the answer is easy. If not, =
what is best
> to do is less clear for me.
>=20
> S.
>=20
>=20
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >>
> >> S.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> As I said to start with, I don't feel strongly that any of these
> >>> issues need to be in the charter, I am just raising them as =
issues.
> >>>
> >>> Jim
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Cose
> >>>> [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Paul Hoffman Sent:
> >>>> Wednesday, April 01, 2015 2:18 PM To: cose@ietf.org Subject:
> >>>> [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
> >>>>
> >>>> There have been no messages for a few days; maybe we are done.
> >>>> Mike wants something about a JWK mapping, but I don't see any =
other
> >>>> support for it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Oh, and you need to change "March" to "April" below because we
> >>>> already ran through that...
> >>>>
> >>>> Time to submit it to Kathleen?
> >>>>
> >>>> --Paul Hoffman
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Mar 29, 2015, at 8:11 AM, Kepeng Li
> >>>>> <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks for the input.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Based on the discussion, now the draft charter 2015-03-29
> >>>>> is:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> # CBOR Object Signing and Encryption (COSE)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ## Charter for Working Group
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a =
concise
> >>>>> binary format for the serialization of data structured to an
> >>>>> extended version of the JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR
> >>>>> was to make this data model more amenable to constrained nodes =
and
> >>>>> constrained node networks (RFC 7228).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The JOSE working group recently completed producing
> >>>>> representations for message authentication (MACs), encryption, =
and
> >>>>> digital signatures, using JSON representation. This working =
group
> >>>>> will reuse the work done by JOSE, adapting it to the =
capabilities
> >>>>> of CBOR. This will rely on the JOSE registries, which, where =
this
> >>>>> provides additional efficiency, will be expanded with additional
> >>>>> information.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible
> >>>>> from or to JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit
> >>>>> compabitility which will enable some simplification in the
> >>>>> adaptation
> >> process.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The WG will have two deliverables: - a standards-track
> >>>>> specification covering the same cryptographic formats from JOSE,
> >>>>> expressed in CBOR; - registration for algorithms (such as
> >>>>> AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate for constrained environments.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The Working Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for
> >>>>> its work, but does not intend to publish this as an RFC.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ## Milestones
> >>>>>
> >>>>> * March 2015: Submit COSE specification as a WG item
> >>>>>
> >>>>> * April 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as =
a
> >>>>> WG item
> >>>>>
> >>>>> * June 2015: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for
> >>>>> publication as a Proposed Standard
> >>>>>
> >>>>> * July 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to =
the
> >>>>> IESG, for publication as a Proposed Standard
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I will put the draft charter to a wiki page, so we can track
> >>>>> changes
> >>> from that.
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________ Cose
> mailing list
> >>>> Cose@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________ Cose
> mailing list
> >>> Cose@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> > _______________________________________________ Cose mailing
> list
> > Cose@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >
> >


From nobody Sat Apr  4 19:08:25 2015
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References: <BL2PR03MB4334B0F0DC3E7494EA9F3E0F5080@BL2PR03MB433.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <BLUPR03MB4371CF16480E2340BE4E8FFF5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515A144.5060403@tzi.org> <BLUPR03MB437187A8194BEC8E764E101F5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <, > <5515D7BC.5060408@tzi.org> <BY2PR03MB4427BB45B2C867BACD663E7F5090@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515EAA6.50109@tzi.org> <3E437B95-88E2-4C7B-8AC9-B084FB113362@vpnc.org> <BY2PR03MB44277A917B73D29103F4056F5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <C410E074-2E47-40C9-94D2-0C7568A31E9E@vpnc.org> <BY2PR03MB442FA924D39EF2EEEDE0E1FF5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <032e4abb-fa77-40f5-b9ae-f09435ddbc91@alibaba-inc.com> <7FB72934-9659-40B3-8E12-A272A6658C1E@vpnc.org> <015901d06f05$a2f6b060$e8e41120$@augustcellars.com> <55203FC9.4050107@cs.tcd.ie> <000901d06f21$9f90b850$deb228f0$@augustcellars.com> <55206270.2050903@cs.tcd.ie> <000a01d06f27$3b086d00$b1194700$@augustcellars.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 22:08:17 -0400
From: "Derek Atkins" <derek@ihtfp.com>
To: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
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Cc: cose@ietf.org, 'Paul Hoffman' <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>, 'Stephen Farrell' <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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HI,

On Sat, April 4, 2015 6:32 pm, Jim Schaad wrote:
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie]
>> Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2015 3:15 PM
>> To: Jim Schaad; 'Paul Hoffman'; cose@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
>>
>>
>> Hiya,
>>
>> On 04/04/15 22:52, Jim Schaad wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Farrell
>> >> [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2015
>> >> 12:47 PM To: Jim Schaad; 'Paul Hoffman'; cose@ietf.org Subject: Re:
>> >> [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi Jim,
>> >>
>> >> Two questions below.
>> >>
>> >> On 04/04/15 19:31, Jim Schaad wrote:
>> >>> I can easily live with the charter as it currently stands.
>> >>>
>> >>> There are three things which we might want to include in the
>> >>> charter:
>> >>>
>> >>> 1.  Since constrained environments are one of the primary targets
>> >>> for this work, message size and code size are to be considered
>> >>> whenever decisions are made.
>> >>
>> >> Code-size minimisation can call for novel crypto mechanisms. Say,
>> >> (inventing one just for the sake of an example), a node implements
>> >> chacha20-poly1305 as an AEAD cipher and also has a need for a MAC,
>> >> then is this proposed WG going to take on the crypto work of defining
>> >> such a thing? I would hope not. How is it proposed to handle such
>> >> cases?
>> >
>> > It has already been stated that we are going to do some of this in the
>> > charter.  After all, there is a work item of doing some constrained
>> > appropriate algorithms to be done in a draft.  I would not expect that
>> > chacha20-poly1305 would so up here.  However it is possible that there
>> > may be a call for doing the new EC curve and possible a static-static
>> > version of ECDH as part of this work.  Again I don't know that would
>> > be the case and I would probably start by arguing that it should be
>> > done in a different group as the first step.  Only those things that
>> > are well understood and deemed necessary should be done now.
>>
>> Cool, I think we agree.

We already have OMAC for making a MAC out of a block cipher.. It's the
basis of AES-CMAC, and can be applied to pretty much any block cipher.  So
no, I wouldn't expect we would need to do any real work here other that
saying to use the OMAC construction.

As for ECDH, I would suggest that we might also consider AEDH in
static-static or static-ephemeral form in addition.

>> So where I think we'd want to (as usual) draw the line is before we get
>> into the
>> putative WG doing novel crypto. For example, I'd say that defining a way
>> to
>> use 25519 or 448 for static-static ECDH would be fine, but defining a
>> new
>> signature scheme would not.
>> Things like that latter really would need to get proper crypto review.
>> (That
>> could be done with or via CFRG or some other way, as usual.)
>>
>> That said, I would expect there to be at least some demands for novel
>> crypto
>> arising here, (for code footprint reasons) so I'd say it'd be good for a
>> charter
>> to be as explicit as possible about that.
>
> Novel crypto is something that I would run away from as quick as possible.
>   I really don't want to get into that.  I have a hard enough time
> understanding some parts of "normal" crypto.

Not sure your definition of "novel".  See above about AEDH as an
alternative to ECDH for efficient key agreement in low-power environments.

> Jim
>
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >>> 2.  We will coordinate with the ACE and CoAP working groups during
>> >>> last calls of the working group documents.

I would also think we might pay attention to DICE as well.

>> >>> 3.  The working group will not deal with issues around key
>> >>> management and the binding of identities and keys, the working group
>> >>> is only focused on secure message formatting.
>> >>
>> >> You did not use the term CBOR above.
>> >>
>> >> Do you see this proposed WG only defining crypto based mechanisms for
>> >> CBOR, or more generally aiming to be independent of how the platform
>> >> handles structured data? I assume (based on the list name and
>> >> proponents) that the proposal here is only to consider CBOR but that
>> >> might be a bad assumption.
>> >
>> > I would be more than happy to put CBOR into that, I kind of assumed it
>> > was implicit from the rest of the charter.  I was thinking in terms of
>> > not getting into key management or certificates would be good
>> > statements to have in the charter for limiting purposes.  At some
>> > point the ACE and CoAP groups are going to need to figure out how to
>> > do both of these and I wanted it to be clear it was not something this
>> > WG was going to deal with.
>>
>> Ok, thanks. So that brings us (well, me:-) back to the still unanswered
>> question
>> as to whether or not CBOR really has enough usage to warrant forming a
>> WG
>> dedicated to crypto-for-CBOR. If it does, the answer is easy. If not,
>> what is best
>> to do is less clear for me.

Personally I would still like to see a side-by-side comparison of CBOR to
JSON-C for, e.g., a JWS object.

-derek

-- 
       Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
       derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
       Computer and Internet Security Consultant


From nobody Sun Apr  5 12:39:04 2015
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, 'Stephen Farrell' <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, 'Paul Hoffman' <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>, "cose@ietf.org" <cose@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 19:38:44 +0000
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Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cose/YdEamScnR1GjuQcD6bdQFduAiWU>
Subject: Re: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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> Novel crypto is something that I would run away from as quick as possible=
.   I really don't want to get into that.  I have a hard enough time unders=
tanding some parts of "normal" crypto.

+1 ;-)

> Jim

				-- Mike


From nobody Sun Apr  5 19:26:46 2015
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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: <cose@ietf.org>
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 19:25:27 -0700
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Subject: [Cose] Encoding sizes
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I have been trying to look at a number of different encoding types for a
message to figure if there is any reason to choose something other than
CBOR.

 

What I did was not a very deep look at the different formats,  I did just
enough to encode one message (a signature on content) and got some idea of
what the structures looked like and could make some guesses about what the
difference in sizes would be on things going forward.

 

JOSE-C

 

I encoded a message that in CBOR takes 237 bytes and in JOSE-B it took 250
bytes.  I did not do any swapping of strings to integers in either case
here.  The major difference in lengths appears to be the fact that most of
the strings have tag and length in 2 bytes for JOSE-B but only in one byte
for CBOR.

 

I did not do the string folding that is available in JOSE-C because it would
not give any change in the size.  None of the strings occur more than once
so unless there was a pre-defined map of values to strings there would be no
shrinking.   This would require the ability to both add items to the map and
declare which map is used.  This is done in the CBOR by using a pre-defined
mapping which is contained in the IANA registry.  There will be potential
problems for the CBOR encoding if new items are added later.   Even if this
is done I believe that the CBOR encoding will be smaller as the integers are
encoded in one byte for CBOR and two bytes for JOSE-C

 

BSON

 

I started to encode and quickly stopped as the fact that many fields are
prefixed with a 32-bit integer which contains the length means that the
message size is going to be much larger.  There does not appear to be any
way to switch from strings to integers for the keys.  However, it would be
possible to use single character strings which would be encoded in two bytes
for the element name (character followed by zero terminator).

 

Smile

 

I found the Smile description to be mostly unreadable.  It is a tighter
version of BSON and encoded my message in 249 bytes.  There is a 3 byte
prefix that could probably be dropped.  It was unclear if one could do an
integer for the element name using the standard decoder or not.  Strings are
encoded in a similar method to CBOR, but using more tags so that even more
string can be encoded with a one character tag.  From that point it will
produce smaller items.   Smile does not have the same nicety of CBOR of
having a similar structure for all items so the code size of the
encoder/decoder is probably larger.  

 

 

 

 


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<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>I have =
been trying to look at a number of different encoding types for a =
message to figure if there is any reason to choose something other than =
CBOR.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>What I did was not a very deep look at the different =
formats,&nbsp; I did just enough to encode one message (a signature on =
content) and got some idea of what the structures looked like and could =
make some guesses about what the difference in sizes would be on things =
going forward.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>JOSE-C<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I encoded a =
message that in CBOR takes 237 bytes and in JOSE-B it took 250 bytes. =
&nbsp;I did not do any swapping of strings to integers in either case =
here.&nbsp; The major difference in lengths appears to be the fact that =
most of the strings have tag and length in 2 bytes for JOSE-B but only =
in one byte for CBOR.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I did not do =
the string folding that is available in JOSE-C because it would not give =
any change in the size. &nbsp;None of the strings occur more than once =
so unless there was a pre-defined map of values to strings there would =
be no shrinking.&nbsp;&nbsp; This would require the ability to both add =
items to the map and declare which map is used. &nbsp;This is done in =
the CBOR by using a pre-defined mapping which is contained in the IANA =
registry.&nbsp; There will be potential problems for the CBOR encoding =
if new items are added later.&nbsp;&nbsp; Even if this is done I believe =
that the CBOR encoding will be smaller as the integers are encoded in =
one byte for CBOR and two bytes for JOSE-C<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>BSON<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I started to =
encode and quickly stopped as the fact that many fields are prefixed =
with a 32-bit integer which contains the length means that the message =
size is going to be much larger. &nbsp;There does not appear to be any =
way to switch from strings to integers for the keys.&nbsp; However, it =
would be possible to use single character strings which would be encoded =
in two bytes for the element name (character followed by zero =
terminator).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Smile<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I found the =
Smile description to be mostly unreadable.&nbsp; It is a tighter version =
of BSON and encoded my message in 249 bytes.&nbsp; There is a 3 byte =
prefix that could probably be dropped.&nbsp; It was unclear if one could =
do an integer for the element name using the standard decoder or =
not.&nbsp; Strings are encoded in a similar method to CBOR, but using =
more tags so that even more string can be encoded with a one character =
tag. &nbsp;From that point it will produce smaller items.&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Smile does not have the same nicety of CBOR of having a similar =
structure for all items so the code size of the encoder/decoder is =
probably larger.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
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From nobody Mon Apr  6 05:33:15 2015
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From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Encoding sizes
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> BSON

The domain of application for BSON is a database where you want to do
in-place modification of some data (e.g., increase a counter).  Hence,
BSON does not employ variable-length encoding as much as other formats.
(See also Appendix E.3 of RFC 7049.)

I think the main reason why it is sometimes cited where a "binary JSON"
as an interchange format is needed is that it has the cool name.

> Smile

Smile is really baroque.  (I had the same problems extracting
information from the specification, which is why it's not in Appendix E.)

More information about formats can be found in other sections of Appendix E.

By the way, there are various implementations of compression of
duplicate strings or items for CBOR.  E.g., see tag 25 [1, 2].
These schemes are most useful if you are using a JSON-like
representation for a table.  They are less useful for many types of
communication seen by constrained nodes.  More powerful nodes can also
get many of the advantages (and some more) from applying a lean
compression scheme such as LZ4 to the encoded CBOR.

It would be trivial to define something like JSON-C's hash for a string
map as a tag for CBOR.  So far, nobody has wanted to.  I think this is
because the scheme has all the usual problems of referencing external
data that the recipient may or may not have available to it (may need a
way to retrieve, and cache, previously unknown values; standalone data
lose their usefulness; ...).

GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten

[1] https://www.iana.org/assignments/cbor-tags/cbor-tags.xhtml
[2] http://pod.tst.eu/http://cvs.schmorp.de/CBOR-XS/doc/stringref.pod


From nobody Mon Apr  6 11:20:59 2015
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From: Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
References: <BL2PR03MB4334B0F0DC3E7494EA9F3E0F5080@BL2PR03MB433.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <E9304CF8-010E-4D43-8537-BFB61234F35D@vpnc.org> <BLUPR03MB4371CF16480E2340BE4E8FFF5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515A144.5060403@tzi.org> <BLUPR03MB437187A8194BEC8E764E101F5090@BLUPR03MB437.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515D7BC.5060408@tzi.org> <BY2PR03MB4427BB45B2C867BACD663E7F5090@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5515EAA6.50109@tzi.org> <3E437B95-88E2-4C7B-8AC9-B084FB113362@vpnc.org> <BY2PR03MB44277A917B73D29103F4056F5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <C410E074-2E47-40C9-94D2-0C7568A31E9E@vpnc.org> <BY2PR03MB442FA924D39EF2EEEDE0E1FF5F70@BY2PR03MB442.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <032e4abb-fa77-40f5-b9ae-f09435ddbc91@alibaba-inc.com> <7FB72934-9659-40B3-8E12-A272A6658C1E@vpnc.org> <551D099C.2010303@cs.tcd.ie> <551D4507.70806@tzi.org> <551D4FEE.50800@cs.tcd.ie> <551D769D.2010602@tzi.org> <551E7426.1050203@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2015 14:20:36 -0400
In-Reply-To: <551E7426.1050203@cs.tcd.ie> (Stephen Farrell's message of "Fri,  03 Apr 2015 12:06:14 +0100")
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Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> writes:

[snip]
>>>>> 2) Can you explicitly say why JOSE just does not work for
>>>>> some key use-cases?
>>>> I had some slides about this:
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-jose-2.pdf
>>>> (the last three slides are the COSE-specific ones).
>>>
>>> The last 3 slides there simply seem to say "don't use b64." 
>> 
>> They do say a bit more, but, yes, base64 is the biggest problem.
>
> So how do we justify going from "let's document a way to use JOSE
> but without the b64 penalty" to "let's re-design all of JOSE to
> be a thing called COSE that doesn't have the b64 penalty"? I don't
> think I've seen that justification tbh.

Personally I don't see us taking that leap.  At least *I* don't see
that.  I see it more as "let's document how to use JOSE without the b64
and other JSON penalties, and make the necessary changes to simplify the
data structure encodings, encoder code, and decoder code".  That's not
the same thing as "let's re-design all of JOSE" which, frankly, I don't
see anyone specifically suggesting or supporting.

[snip]
>>>> The design space is indeed humungous.  Why have we arrived here?
>>>> Binary-enhanced JSONs are a non-starter, they just carry all the
>>>> existing complexity of JSON and add a couple of backwards
>>>> compatibility issues.  That's why we did CBOR.
>>>
>>> I would have preferred a specific answer there that referred
>>> to (ideally via a list archive URL) PHB's stuff and showed why
>>> what's proposed here is (going to be) better, or which pointed
>>> out the fatal flaw in PHB's work.
>> 
>> I'm sorry, but that is water under the bridge.
>
> That seems non-responsive, so maybe I wasn't clear. If the flaws
> in PHB's stuff, or the advantages of COSE compared to PHB's stuff,
> were water under the bridge then you should be able to send me the
> list archive URL where that was documented. If not, then the water
> hasn't yet flowed under an IETF visible bridge;-)

I think that Jim Schaad's email showing a 35-40 byte savings of COSE
over JOSE-B/C is probably sufficient, considering the complexity of a
JSON encoder/decover versus a CBOR encoder/decoder.

>>  Replacing CBOR by
>> something that nobody has looked at in detail is not reducing any of the
>> other work required (and, for one, am not going to waste any time on
>> something that is not solving my problems).  
>
> You are assuming that I accept that CBOR is being, or will be,
> widely used. That may be the case, but I have not seen the evidence
> for that. If CBOR is being widely used that shouldn't be hard to
> demonstrate. And (to repeat myself) it's those pointers to work
> based on CBOR that I'd most like to see.

There's at least a dozen (or more) CBOR implementations out there.  See
http://cbor.io/

I cannot comment on how widely used they are, but I know that I'm
planning to use it.

-derek
-- 
       Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
       derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
       Computer and Internet Security Consultant


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Thread-Topic: [Cose] Are we finished with the charter?
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On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com> wrote:

> Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> writes:
>
> [snip]
> >>>>> 2) Can you explicitly say why JOSE just does not work for
> >>>>> some key use-cases?
> >>>> I had some slides about this:
> >>>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-jose-2.pdf
> >>>> (the last three slides are the COSE-specific ones).
> >>>
> >>> The last 3 slides there simply seem to say "don't use b64."
> >>
> >> They do say a bit more, but, yes, base64 is the biggest problem.
> >
> > So how do we justify going from "let's document a way to use JOSE
> > but without the b64 penalty" to "let's re-design all of JOSE to
> > be a thing called COSE that doesn't have the b64 penalty"? I don't
> > think I've seen that justification tbh.
>
> Personally I don't see us taking that leap.  At least *I* don't see
> that.  I see it more as "let's document how to use JOSE without the b64
> and other JSON penalties, and make the necessary changes to simplify the
> data structure encodings, encoder code, and decoder code".  That's not
> the same thing as "let's re-design all of JOSE" which, frankly, I don't
> see anyone specifically suggesting or supporting.
>
> [snip]
> >>>> The design space is indeed humungous.  Why have we arrived here?
> >>>> Binary-enhanced JSONs are a non-starter, they just carry all the
> >>>> existing complexity of JSON and add a couple of backwards
> >>>> compatibility issues.  That's why we did CBOR.
> >>>
> >>> I would have preferred a specific answer there that referred
> >>> to (ideally via a list archive URL) PHB's stuff and showed why
> >>> what's proposed here is (going to be) better, or which pointed
> >>> out the fatal flaw in PHB's work.
> >>
> >> I'm sorry, but that is water under the bridge.
> >
> > That seems non-responsive, so maybe I wasn't clear. If the flaws
> > in PHB's stuff, or the advantages of COSE compared to PHB's stuff,
> > were water under the bridge then you should be able to send me the
> > list archive URL where that was documented. If not, then the water
> > hasn't yet flowed under an IETF visible bridge;-)
>

PHB just posted his 4-page draft Wednesday of IETF week, after the JOSE
meeting.  He brought this up during the JOSE session and during the plenary
at the mic.  He told me after the JOSE session that he would get the draft
posted, so there really hasn't been too much time, but reviews are
flowing.  The reviews on that draft and feasibility for this problem space
are being discussed  mostly on the JOSE list.

http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/jose/current/msg05066.html

My opinion is that we need to allow that conversation to happen and give it
a little more time.


> I think that Jim Schaad's email showing a 35-40 byte savings of COSE
> over JOSE-B/C is probably sufficient, considering the complexity of a
> JSON encoder/decover versus a CBOR encoder/decoder.
>

This type of discussion and analysis has also been helpful.

>
> >>  Replacing CBOR by
> >> something that nobody has looked at in detail is not reducing any of the
> >> other work required (and, for one, am not going to waste any time on
> >> something that is not solving my problems).
> >
> > You are assuming that I accept that CBOR is being, or will be,
> > widely used. That may be the case, but I have not seen the evidence
> > for that. If CBOR is being widely used that shouldn't be hard to
> > demonstrate. And (to repeat myself) it's those pointers to work
> > based on CBOR that I'd most like to see.
>
> There's at least a dozen (or more) CBOR implementations out there.  See
> http://cbor.io/
>
> I cannot comment on how widely used they are, but I know that I'm
> planning to use it.
>

I'd like to see this conversation develop a bit more and also want to be
careful that we don't waste a ton of time in the lead up for a WG that may
only produce a couple of drafts with plans to do that quickly.  We
shouldn't be a barrier to getting work done.  If there are enough use cases
where this makes sense, having it flow quickly and seeing what comes of it
may be the way to consume less overall time.

ACE needs a solution or they may design something else, that was pretty
clear in Dallas - but the WG would prefer to refer to something else.

I'm going to be pretty tied up this week, so I may be more quiet until
Friday.

Thanks,
Kathleen



>
> -derek
> --
>        Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
>        derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
>        Computer and Internet Security Consultant
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>



-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen

--089e014942aa7f54da051313fe01
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Derek Atkins <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:derek@ihtfp.com" target=3D"_blank">derek@ihtfp.com</a>&gt;</s=
pan> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-lef=
t-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">Stephen Farrell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:steph=
en.farrell@cs.tcd.ie" target=3D"_blank">stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie</a>&gt; w=
rites:<br>
<br>
[snip]<br>
<span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 2) Can you explicitly say why JOSE just does not=
 work for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; some key use-cases?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I had some slides about this:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slide=
s-90-jose-2.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slide=
s/slides-90-jose-2.pdf</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (the last three slides are the COSE-specific ones).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; The last 3 slides there simply seem to say &quot;don&#39;t use=
 b64.&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; They do say a bit more, but, yes, base64 is the biggest problem.<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So how do we justify going from &quot;let&#39;s document a way to use =
JOSE<br>
&gt; but without the b64 penalty&quot; to &quot;let&#39;s re-design all of =
JOSE to<br>
&gt; be a thing called COSE that doesn&#39;t have the b64 penalty&quot;? I =
don&#39;t<br>
&gt; think I&#39;ve seen that justification tbh.<br>
<br>
</span>Personally I don&#39;t see us taking that leap.=C2=A0 At least *I* d=
on&#39;t see<br>
that.=C2=A0 I see it more as &quot;let&#39;s document how to use JOSE witho=
ut the b64<br>
and other JSON penalties, and make the necessary changes to simplify the<br=
>
data structure encodings, encoder code, and decoder code&quot;.=C2=A0 That&=
#39;s not<br>
the same thing as &quot;let&#39;s re-design all of JOSE&quot; which, frankl=
y, I don&#39;t<br>
see anyone specifically suggesting or supporting.<br>
<br>
[snip]<br>
<span>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The design space is indeed humungous.=C2=A0 Why have=
 we arrived here?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Binary-enhanced JSONs are a non-starter, they just carry a=
ll the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; existing complexity of JSON and add a couple of backwards<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; compatibility issues.=C2=A0 That&#39;s why we did CBOR.<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I would have preferred a specific answer there that referred<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; to (ideally via a list archive URL) PHB&#39;s stuff and showed=
 why<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; what&#39;s proposed here is (going to be) better, or which poi=
nted<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; out the fatal flaw in PHB&#39;s work.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I&#39;m sorry, but that is water under the bridge.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; That seems non-responsive, so maybe I wasn&#39;t clear. If the flaws<b=
r>
&gt; in PHB&#39;s stuff, or the advantages of COSE compared to PHB&#39;s st=
uff,<br>
&gt; were water under the bridge then you should be able to send me the<br>
&gt; list archive URL where that was documented. If not, then the water<br>
&gt; hasn&#39;t yet flowed under an IETF visible bridge;-)<br></span></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>PHB just posted his 4-page draft Wednesday of IE=
TF week, after the JOSE meeting.=C2=A0 He brought this up during the JOSE s=
ession and during the plenary at the mic.=C2=A0 He told me after the JOSE s=
ession that he would get the draft posted, so there really hasn&#39;t been =
too much time, but reviews are flowing.=C2=A0 The reviews on that draft and=
 feasibility for this problem space are being discussed =C2=A0mostly on the=
 JOSE list.</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-ar=
chive/web/jose/current/msg05066.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org=
/mail-archive/web/jose/current/msg05066.html</a><br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>My opinion is that we need to allow that conversation to happen and give=
 it a little more time.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-colo=
r:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>
<br>
</span>I think that Jim Schaad&#39;s email showing a 35-40 byte savings of =
COSE<br>
over JOSE-B/C is probably sufficient, considering the complexity of a<br>
JSON encoder/decover versus a CBOR encoder/decoder.<br></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>This type of discussion and analysis has also been helpful.=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-styl=
e:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span><br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 Replacing CBOR by<br>
&gt;&gt; something that nobody has looked at in detail is not reducing any =
of the<br>
&gt;&gt; other work required (and, for one, am not going to waste any time =
on<br>
&gt;&gt; something that is not solving my problems).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; You are assuming that I accept that CBOR is being, or will be,<br>
&gt; widely used. That may be the case, but I have not seen the evidence<br=
>
&gt; for that. If CBOR is being widely used that shouldn&#39;t be hard to<b=
r>
&gt; demonstrate. And (to repeat myself) it&#39;s those pointers to work<br=
>
&gt; based on CBOR that I&#39;d most like to see.<br>
<br>
</span>There&#39;s at least a dozen (or more) CBOR implementations out ther=
e.=C2=A0 See<br>
<a href=3D"http://cbor.io/" target=3D"_blank">http://cbor.io/</a><br>
<br>
I cannot comment on how widely used they are, but I know that I&#39;m<br>
planning to use it.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I&#39;d like to see=
 this conversation develop a bit more and also want to be careful that we d=
on&#39;t waste a ton of time in the lead up for a WG that may only produce =
a couple of drafts with plans to do that quickly.=C2=A0 We shouldn&#39;t be=
 a barrier to getting work done.=C2=A0 If there are enough use cases where =
this makes sense, having it flow quickly and seeing what comes of it may be=
 the way to consume less overall time.</div><div><br></div><div>ACE needs a=
 solution or they may design something else, that was pretty clear in Dalla=
s - but the WG would prefer to refer to something else.</div><div><br></div=
><div>I&#39;m going to be pretty tied up this week, so I may be more quiet =
until Friday.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Kathleen</div><div=
><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,20=
4);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span><br>
-derek<br>
--<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Derek Atkins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:617-623-3745" value=3D"+161762337=
45" target=3D"_blank">617-623-3745</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:derek@ihtfp.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">derek@ihtfp.com</a>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a =
href=3D"http://www.ihtfp.com" target=3D"_blank">www.ihtfp.com</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Computer and Internet Security Consultant<br>
<br>
</span><div><div>_______________________________________________<br>
Cose mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>=
<div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div>=
</div>
</div></div>

--089e014942aa7f54da051313fe01--


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From nobody Wed Apr  8 07:33:54 2015
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From: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
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Subject: [Cose] CBOR+crypto already deployed
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Greetings again. As part of the "is this work needed" discussion, we =
were asked for current systems that could use something like COSE. =
Attached please see an already-deployed system that had to roll their =
own subset of what we intend to do in COSE. I don't have any more =
technical details than what's in this this document, but I have been =
told that there are multiple implementers.

--Paul Hoffman


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From nobody Wed Apr  8 07:40:27 2015
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 15:40:21 +0100
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] CBOR+crypto already deployed
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On 08/04/15 15:33, Paul Hoffman wrote:
> Greetings again. As part of the "is this work needed" discussion, we
> were asked for current systems that could use something like COSE.
> Attached please see an already-deployed system that had to roll their
> own subset of what we intend to do in COSE. I don't have any more
> technical details than what's in this this document, but I have been
> told that there are multiple implementers.

Thanks! That's exactly the kind of thing makes me much happier
about this work.

S.

> 
> --Paul Hoffman
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ Cose mailing list 
> Cose@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> 


From nobody Wed Apr  8 08:00:10 2015
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Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 8, 2015, at 10:40 AM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> w=
rote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On 08/04/15 15:33, Paul Hoffman wrote:
>> Greetings again. As part of the "is this work needed" discussion, we
>> were asked for current systems that could use something like COSE.
>> Attached please see an already-deployed system that had to roll their
>> own subset of what we intend to do in COSE. I don't have any more
>> technical details than what's in this this document, but I have been
>> told that there are multiple implementers.
>=20
> Thanks! That's exactly the kind of thing makes me much happier
> about this work.

Thanks, Paul.  This is really helpful.

Kathleen=20
>=20
> S.
>=20
>>=20
>> --Paul Hoffman
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________ Cose mailing list=20
>> Cose@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


From nobody Wed Apr  8 16:20:36 2015
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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: <jose@ietf.org>, <cose@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 16:19:16 -0700
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Subject: [Cose] Use of supplied authenticated information with AEAD algorithms
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In the process of going through the use cases that have arisen for dealing
with the COSE world in ACE.  I have come to a realization that we have
perhaps messed up the paradigm for additional data when dealing with AEAD
algorithms.  I don't think this is an issue for the world which JOSE came
out of, but it may be an issue going in the future and is definitely an
issue for the world of CoAP.

 

In JOSE we make the assumption that all of the additional authenticated data
is transmitted as part of the JOSE message.  This makes sense because we did
not have a large number of cases where it would not be.  However, if one
looks at the CoAP/ACE world this is not always true.  In their case they are
going to want to potentially have both authenticated data carried as part of
the message, but also have authenticated data which is carried in the
envelope.  

 

Case of sending a JWT, this would be the equivalent of needing to send the
name of the originator in the headers and still wanting to have it validated
as part of the token.  (As opposed to just sending it in the body of the
JWT.)

 

I don't know of any cases currently where this is a problem for JOSE.  I do
know that it is a potential problem for COSE.

 

Can any body think of a use case for JOSE where this paradigm needs to be
fixed?

 

Jim

 


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xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" =
xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta =
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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>In the =
process of going through the use cases that have arisen for dealing with =
the COSE world in ACE.&nbsp; I have come to a realization that we have =
perhaps messed up the paradigm for additional data when dealing with =
AEAD algorithms.&nbsp; I don&#8217;t think this is an issue for the =
world which JOSE came out of, but it may be an issue going in the future =
and is definitely an issue for the world of CoAP.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>In JOSE we =
make the assumption that all of the additional authenticated data is =
transmitted as part of the JOSE message.&nbsp; This makes sense because =
we did not have a large number of cases where it would not be.&nbsp; =
However, if one looks at the CoAP/ACE world this is not always =
true.&nbsp; In their case they are going to want to potentially have =
both authenticated data carried as part of the message, but also have =
authenticated data which is carried in the envelope.&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Case of sending a JWT, this would be the equivalent of =
needing to send the name of the originator in the headers and still =
wanting to have it validated as part of the token.&nbsp; (As opposed to =
just sending it in the body of the JWT.)<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
don&#8217;t know of any cases currently where this is a problem for =
JOSE.&nbsp; I do know that it is a potential problem for =
COSE.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Can any body think of a use case for JOSE where this =
paradigm needs to be fixed?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Jim<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01D07217.C472B350--


From nobody Wed Apr  8 16:33:21 2015
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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
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Subject: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
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I have created a pull request to deal with the issues that I raised over the
weekend.  As part of the text changes I am suggested are some that are aimed
at what I believe are the issues that both Joe and Stephen have raised about
scope.

 

Please look over them and comment.

 

Jim

 


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<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
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xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
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charset=3Dus-ascii"><meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 14 =
(filtered medium)"><style><!--
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	{font-family:Calibri;
	panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
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	{margin:0in;
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--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>I have =
created a pull request to deal with the issues that I raised over the =
weekend.&nbsp; As part of the text changes I am suggested are some that =
are aimed at what I believe are the issues that both Joe and Stephen =
have raised about scope.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Please look =
over them and comment.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Jim<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
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From nobody Wed Apr  8 16:44:56 2015
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
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It's kind of unfair to expect people to know where the draft charter is, =
or even what a "pull request" is. For those not in the know, the draft =
charter is at:
   https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
and Jim's proposed changes are are:
   https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/pull/2=


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Thread-Topic: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
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I copy the proposed texts here:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------

Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing from a
JOSE to a CBOR encoding are:
- Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.
- Minimizing message size and code size should be considered (for the
constrained environments where we expect to use this).
- Improving security.
- Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but are
required for the new use cases.

Since contrained environments are one of the primary targets for this
work, message size and code size are to be considered whenever decisions
are made.

Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are
out of scope for the working group.

The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CoAP
working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these
constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use
cases is expanded.


=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=
=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA


For the last paragraph, I propose to change CoAP to CoRE.

Thanks,

Kind Regards
Kepeng

=D4=DA 9/4/15 7:43 am=A3=AC "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> =D0=B4=C8=EB:

>It's kind of unfair to expect people to know where the draft charter is,
>or even what a "pull request" is. For those not in the know, the draft
>charter is at:
>   https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
>and Jim's proposed changes are are:
>   https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/pull/2
>_______________________________________________
>Cose mailing list
>Cose@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose



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> Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing from a
> JOSE to a CBOR encoding are:
> - Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.
> - Minimizing message size and code size should be considered (for the
> constrained environments where we expect to use this).
> - Improving security.
> - Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but are
> required for the new use cases.
> 
> Since contrained environments are one of the primary targets for this
> work, message size and code size are to be considered whenever decisions
> are made.
> 
> Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are
> out of scope for the working group.
> 
> The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CoAP
> working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these
> constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use
> cases is expanded.

This seems like a fine addition.

--Paul Hoffman


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Hi Kepeng:

Some feedback (one remark, two small suggested text tweaks) below.

Best regards, Rene

On 4/8/2015 9:30 PM, Kepeng Li wrote:
> I copy the proposed texts here:
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------------
>
> Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing from a
> JOSE to a CBOR encoding are:
> - Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.
> - Minimizing message size and code size should be considered (for the
> constrained environments where we expect to use this).
> - Improving security.
RS>> Just a remark (not a proposed change) to illustrate the importance of
this point: improper encodings have resulted in attacks in the past, 
see, e.g.,
N. Mavrogiannopoulos, F. Vercauteren, V. Velichkov, B. Preneel,
A Cross-Protocol Attack on the TLS Protocol, ACM CCS 2012.
<<RS
> - Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but are
> required for the new use cases.
>
> Since contrained environments are one of the primary targets for this
> work, message size and code size are to be considered whenever decisions
> are made.
RS>> I suggest to change this paragraph slightly, as follows:
Since constrained environments are one of the primary targets for this 
work,
message size, code size, and computational cost are to be considered 
whenever
decisions are made.
NOTE: sometimes, small representation differences may have larger 
computational
impact, e.g, when dealing with security-related objects.
<<RS
>
> Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are
> out of scope for the working group
RS>> I suggest to change this slightly, as follows:
Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are 
presently
out of scope and may only be considered after rechartering.
<<RS
> .
>
> The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CoAP
> working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these
> constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use
> cases is expanded.
RS>> I can imagine some other "constrained cluster" groups also having 
an interest in this work, such
as 6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc. Perhaps, this is already captured under the 
last sentence, though.
<<RS
>
>
> ¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª
>
>
> For the last paragraph, I propose to change CoAP to CoRE.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kind Regards
> Kepeng
>
> ÔÚ 9/4/15 7:43 am£¬ "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> Ð´Èë:
>
>> It's kind of unfair to expect people to know where the draft charter is,
>> or even what a "pull request" is. For those not in the know, the draft
>> charter is at:
>>    https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
>> and Jim's proposed changes are are:
>>    https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/pull/2
>> _______________________________________________
>> Cose mailing list
>> Cose@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


-- 
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kepeng Li
> Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 6:31 PM
> To: Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad
> Cc: cose@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
>
> I copy the proposed texts here:
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------------
>
> Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing from a
> JOSE to a CBOR encoding are:
> - Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.
> - Minimizing message size and code size should be considered (for the
> constrained environments where we expect to use this).
> - Improving security.
> - Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but are
> required for the new use cases.
>
> Since contrained environments are one of the primary targets for this
work,
> message size and code size are to be considered whenever decisions are
> made.
>
> Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are
out
> of scope for the working group.
>
> The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CoAP
> working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these
> constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use
cases
> is expanded.
>
>
> -----------------------------------
> ---------------
>
>
> For the last paragraph, I propose to change CoAP to CoRE.

Yes - on the way to being done.

Jim

>
> Thanks,
>
> Kind Regards
> Kepeng
>
> $B:_(B 9/4/15 7:43 am$B!$(B "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> $B<LF~(B:
>
> >It's kind of unfair to expect people to know where the draft charter
> >is, or even what a "pull request" is. For those not in the know, the
> >draft charter is at:
> >   https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
> >and Jim's proposed changes are are:
> >   https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/pull/2
> >_______________________________________________
> >Cose mailing list
> >Cose@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


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Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rene Struik
> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 7:00 AM
> To: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad
> Cc: cose@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
>
> Hi Kepeng:
>
> Some feedback (one remark, two small suggested text tweaks) below.
>
> Best regards, Rene
>
> On 4/8/2015 9:30 PM, Kepeng Li wrote:
> > I copy the proposed texts here:
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----
> > -------------------------
> >
> > Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing
> > from a JOSE to a CBOR encoding are:
> > - Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.
> > - Minimizing message size and code size should be considered (for the
> > constrained environments where we expect to use this).
> > - Improving security.
> RS>> Just a remark (not a proposed change) to illustrate the importance
> RS>> of
> this point: improper encodings have resulted in attacks in the past, see,
e.g.,
> N. Mavrogiannopoulos, F. Vercauteren, V. Velichkov, B. Preneel, A Cross-
> Protocol Attack on the TLS Protocol, ACM CCS 2012.
> <<RS
> > - Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but
> > are required for the new use cases.
> >
> > Since contrained environments are one of the primary targets for this
> > work, message size and code size are to be considered whenever
> > decisions are made.
> RS>> I suggest to change this paragraph slightly, as follows:
> Since constrained environments are one of the primary targets for this
work,
> message size, code size, and computational cost are to be considered
> whenever decisions are made.
> NOTE: sometimes, small representation differences may have larger
> computational impact, e.g, when dealing with security-related objects.

This is something that people would not understand without an example.  (I
know that I am not sure what is intended here.)  If we have to have an
example then I am not sure that it makes sense.

I would however appreciate an example of what you mean because that might
suggest wording changes.

> <<RS
> >
> > Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities
> > are out of scope for the working group
> RS>> I suggest to change this slightly, as follows:
> Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are
> presently out of scope and may only be considered after rechartering.

Your wording change suggests that we might consider this later.  I have no
intention of considering this.  I think this is work for the ACE and CORE
groups to deal with not for this group.   As such I don't believe the change
helps.

> <<RS
> > .
> >
> > The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and
> > CoAP working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of
> > these constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the
> > set of use cases is expanded.
> RS>> I can imagine some other "constrained cluster" groups also having
> an interest in this work, such
> as 6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc. Perhaps, this is already captured under the
last
> sentence, though.

If we have other groups which we really think are going to need or use this
work, it makes sense to identify them sooner than later.  If we have them
identified then adding them now makes sense.

Jim


> <<RS
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------
> ----------------
> >
> >
> > For the last paragraph, I propose to change CoAP to CoRE.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Kind Regards
> > Kepeng
> >
> > $B:_(B 9/4/15 7:43 am$B!$(B "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> $B<LF~(B:
> >
> >> It's kind of unfair to expect people to know where the draft charter
> >> is, or even what a "pull request" is. For those not in the know, the
> >> draft charter is at:
> >>
> >> https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
> >> and Jim's proposed changes are are:
> >>    https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/pull/2
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Cose mailing list
> >> Cose@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cose mailing list
> > Cose@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>
>
> --
> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 00:24:55 +0800
From: "Kepeng Li" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, 'Rene Struik' <rstruik.ext@gmail.com>, 'Paul Hoffman' <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
Message-ID: <D14CC80E.5447%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
Thread-Topic: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
References: <002201d07254$3ba98890$b2fc99b0$@augustcellars.com> <DD1BDF2E-7323-4DC6-ACC4-0ACE8CBF38B2@vpnc.org> <D14BF56C.530B%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> <552685F5.9030408@gmail.com> <003401d072db$3abea000$b03be000$@augustcellars.com>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
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>>RS>> I suggest to change this paragraph slightly, as follows:
>>Since constrained environments are one of the primary targets for this
>>work,
>>message size, code size, and computational cost are to be considered
>>whenever decisions are made.
>>NOTE: sometimes, small representation differences may have larger
>>computational impact, e.g, when dealing with security-related objects.

>This is something that people would not understand without an example.  (I
>know that I am not sure what is intended here.)  If we have to have an
>example then I am not sure that it makes sense.

>I would however appreciate an example of what you mean because that might
>suggest wording changes.


I assume that computational cost means CPU processing cost, memory cost,
etc.

Maybe Rene can further clarify.

Kind Regards
Kepeng


=D4=DA 9/4/15 11:38 pm=A3=AC "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com> =D0=B4=C8=EB:

>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rene Struik
>> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 7:00 AM
>> To: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad
>> Cc: cose@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
>>
>> Hi Kepeng:
>>
>> Some feedback (one remark, two small suggested text tweaks) below.
>>
>> Best regards, Rene
>>
>> On 4/8/2015 9:30 PM, Kepeng Li wrote:
>> > I copy the proposed texts here:
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > -----
>> > -------------------------
>> >
>> > Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing
>> > from a JOSE to a CBOR encoding are:
>> > - Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.
>> > - Minimizing message size and code size should be considered (for the
>> > constrained environments where we expect to use this).
>> > - Improving security.
>> RS>> Just a remark (not a proposed change) to illustrate the importance
>> RS>> of
>> this point: improper encodings have resulted in attacks in the past,
>>see,
>e.g.,
>> N. Mavrogiannopoulos, F. Vercauteren, V. Velichkov, B. Preneel, A Cross-
>> Protocol Attack on the TLS Protocol, ACM CCS 2012.
>> <<RS
>> > - Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but
>> > are required for the new use cases.
>> >
>> > Since contrained environments are one of the primary targets for this
>> > work, message size and code size are to be considered whenever
>> > decisions are made.
>> RS>> I suggest to change this paragraph slightly, as follows:
>> Since constrained environments are one of the primary targets for this
>work,
>> message size, code size, and computational cost are to be considered
>> whenever decisions are made.
>> NOTE: sometimes, small representation differences may have larger
>> computational impact, e.g, when dealing with security-related objects.
>
>This is something that people would not understand without an example.  (I
>know that I am not sure what is intended here.)  If we have to have an
>example then I am not sure that it makes sense.
>
>I would however appreciate an example of what you mean because that might
>suggest wording changes.
>
>> <<RS
>> >
>> > Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities
>> > are out of scope for the working group
>> RS>> I suggest to change this slightly, as follows:
>> Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are
>> presently out of scope and may only be considered after rechartering.
>
>Your wording change suggests that we might consider this later.  I have no
>intention of considering this.  I think this is work for the ACE and CORE
>groups to deal with not for this group.   As such I don't believe the
>change
>helps.
>
>> <<RS
>> > .
>> >
>> > The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and
>> > CoAP working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of
>> > these constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the
>> > set of use cases is expanded.
>> RS>> I can imagine some other "constrained cluster" groups also having
>> an interest in this work, such
>> as 6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc. Perhaps, this is already captured under the
>last
>> sentence, though.
>
>If we have other groups which we really think are going to need or use
>this
>work, it makes sense to identify them sooner than later.  If we have them
>identified then adding them now makes sense.
>
>Jim
>
>
>> <<RS
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------
>> ----------------
>> >
>> >
>> > For the last paragraph, I propose to change CoAP to CoRE.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Kind Regards
>> > Kepeng
>> >
>> > =D4=DA 9/4/15 7:43 am=A3=AC "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> =D0=B4=C8=EB:
>> >
>> >> It's kind of unfair to expect people to know where the draft charter
>> >> is, or even what a "pull request" is. For those not in the know, the
>> >> draft charter is at:
>> >>
>> >> https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
>> >> and Jim's proposed changes are are:
>> >>    https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/pull/2
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Cose mailing list
>> >> Cose@ietf.org
>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Cose mailing list
>> > Cose@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>
>>
>> --
>> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
>> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Cose mailing list
>> Cose@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>
>_______________________________________________
>Cose mailing list
>Cose@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose



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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 12:32:33 -0400
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References: <002201d07254$3ba98890$b2fc99b0$@augustcellars.com> <DD1BDF2E-7323-4DC6-ACC4-0ACE8CBF38B2@vpnc.org> <D14BF56C.530B%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> <552685F5.9030408@gmail.com> <003401d072db$3abea000$b03be000$@augustcellars.com>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
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Hi Jim:

Please see below (RS2>> <<RS2).

Rene

On 4/9/2015 11:38 AM, Jim Schaad wrote:
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rene Struik
>> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 7:00 AM
>> To: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad
>> Cc: cose@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
>>
>> Hi Kepeng:
>>
>> Some feedback (one remark, two small suggested text tweaks) below.
>>
>> Best regards, Rene
>>
>> On 4/8/2015 9:30 PM, Kepeng Li wrote:
>>> I copy the proposed texts here:
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -----
>>> -------------------------
>>>
>>> Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing
>>> from a JOSE to a CBOR encoding are:
>>> - Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.
>>> - Minimizing message size and code size should be considered (for the
>>> constrained environments where we expect to use this).
>>> - Improving security.
>> RS>> Just a remark (not a proposed change) to illustrate the importance
>> RS>> of
>> this point: improper encodings have resulted in attacks in the past, see,
> e.g.,
>> N. Mavrogiannopoulos, F. Vercauteren, V. Velichkov, B. Preneel, A Cross-
>> Protocol Attack on the TLS Protocol, ACM CCS 2012.
>> <<RS
>>> - Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but
>>> are required for the new use cases.
>>>
>>> Since contrained environments are one of the primary targets for this
>>> work, message size and code size are to be considered whenever
>>> decisions are made.
>> RS>> I suggest to change this paragraph slightly, as follows:
>> Since constrained environments are one of the primary targets for this
> work,
>> message size, code size, and computational cost are to be considered
>> whenever decisions are made.
>> NOTE: sometimes, small representation differences may have larger
>> computational impact, e.g, when dealing with security-related objects.
> This is something that people would not understand without an example.  (I
> know that I am not sure what is intended here.)  If we have to have an
> example then I am not sure that it makes sense.
>
> I would however appreciate an example of what you mean because that might
> suggest wording changes.
RS2>>
A simple example would be ECDSA signatures, where the signature (r,s) 
over a message is represented
as (r, 1/s) so as to avoid any inversions modulo the elliptic curve 
group size for verifiers, which could be
a useful trade-off in environments with lots of verifications relative 
to signatures, such as with Connected Vehicles
(IEEE 1609.2/DoT, EU initiatives). NOTE: this example is not meant at 
all to trigger a debate on whether this particular representation
convention should be pursued. It just illustrates that one should also 
consider trade-offs with computational
cost. Hence, the suggested wording change.
<<RS2
>> <<RS
>>> Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities
>>> are out of scope for the working group
>> RS>> I suggest to change this slightly, as follows:
>> Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are
>> presently out of scope and may only be considered after rechartering.
> Your wording change suggests that we might consider this later.  I have no
> intention of considering this.  I think this is work for the ACE and CORE
> groups to deal with not for this group.   As such I don't believe the change
> helps.
RS2>> Perhaps. It is hard for me to keep track of which group should do 
what. What I do know
is that there are technical reasons to look at some of these topics. As 
an example, clever
representation of bindings of keys and identities may be crucial for, 
e.g., the join protocol with
6TiSCH. It may be okay to tackle this elsewhere, but question is why and 
whether there would
be sufficient critical mass to take on some of the micro-topics. To me, 
it seems that some representation
topics benefit from a system level perspective, even if these are not on 
the top of the list, due to
low-hanging fruit considerations.
<<RS
>
>> <<RS
>>> .
>>>
>>> The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and
>>> CoAP working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of
>>> these constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the
>>> set of use cases is expanded.
>> RS>> I can imagine some other "constrained cluster" groups also having
>> an interest in this work, such
>> as 6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc. Perhaps, this is already captured under the
> last
>> sentence, though.
> If we have other groups which we really think are going to need or use this
> work, it makes sense to identify them sooner than later.  If we have them
> identified then adding them now makes sense.
>
> Jim
>
>
>> <<RS
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------
>> ----------------
>>>
>>> For the last paragraph, I propose to change CoAP to CoRE.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Kind Regards
>>> Kepeng
>>>
>>> åœ¨ 9/4/15 7:43 amï¼Œ "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> å†™å…¥:
>>>
>>>> It's kind of unfair to expect people to know where the draft charter
>>>> is, or even what a "pull request" is. For those not in the know, the
>>>> draft charter is at:
>>>>
>>>> https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
>>>> and Jim's proposed changes are are:
>>>>     https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/pull/2
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Cose mailing list
>>>> Cose@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Cose mailing list
>>> Cose@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>
>> --
>> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
>> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Cose mailing list
>> Cose@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: "'Rene Struik'" <rstruik.ext@gmail.com>
References: <002201d07254$3ba98890$b2fc99b0$@augustcellars.com> <DD1BDF2E-7323-4DC6-ACC4-0ACE8CBF38B2@vpnc.org> <D14BF56C.530B%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> <552685F5.9030408@gmail.com> <003401d072db$3abea000$b03be000$@augustcellars.com> <5526A9A1.3060006@gmail.com>
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Cc: cose@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rene Struik
> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 9:33 AM
> To: Jim Schaad; 'Kepeng Li'; 'Paul Hoffman'
> Cc: cose@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
>=20
> Hi Jim:
>=20
> Please see below (RS2>> <<RS2).
>=20
> Rene
>=20
> On 4/9/2015 11:38 AM, Jim Schaad wrote:
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rene Struik
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 7:00 AM
> >> To: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad
> >> Cc: cose@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
> >>
> >> Hi Kepeng:
> >>
> >> Some feedback (one remark, two small suggested text tweaks) below.
> >>
> >> Best regards, Rene
> >>
> >> On 4/8/2015 9:30 PM, Kepeng Li wrote:
> >>> I copy the proposed texts here:
> >>>
> >>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> --
> >>> -----
> >>> -------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing
> >>> from a JOSE to a CBOR encoding are:
> >>> - Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where =
feasible.
> >>> - Minimizing message size and code size should be considered (for
> >>> the constrained environments where we expect to use this).
> >>> - Improving security.
> >> RS>> Just a remark (not a proposed change) to illustrate the
> >> RS>> importance of
> >> this point: improper encodings have resulted in attacks in the =
past,
> >> see,
> > e.g.,
> >> N. Mavrogiannopoulos, F. Vercauteren, V. Velichkov, B. Preneel, A
> >> Cross- Protocol Attack on the TLS Protocol, ACM CCS 2012.
> >> <<RS
> >>> - Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, =
but
> >>> are required for the new use cases.
> >>>
> >>> Since contrained environments are one of the primary targets for
> >>> this work, message size and code size are to be considered =
whenever
> >>> decisions are made.
> >> RS>> I suggest to change this paragraph slightly, as follows:
> >> Since constrained environments are one of the primary targets for
> >> this
> > work,
> >> message size, code size, and computational cost are to be =
considered
> >> whenever decisions are made.
> >> NOTE: sometimes, small representation differences may have larger
> >> computational impact, e.g, when dealing with security-related =
objects.
> > This is something that people would not understand without an =
example.
> > (I know that I am not sure what is intended here.)  If we have to =
have
> > an example then I am not sure that it makes sense.
> >
> > I would however appreciate an example of what you mean because that
> > might suggest wording changes.
> RS2>>
> A simple example would be ECDSA signatures, where the signature (r,s) =
over a
> message is represented as (r, 1/s) so as to avoid any inversions =
modulo the
> elliptic curve group size for verifiers, which could be a useful =
trade-off in
> environments with lots of verifications relative to signatures, such =
as with
> Connected Vehicles (IEEE 1609.2/DoT, EU initiatives). NOTE: this =
example is
> not meant at all to trigger a debate on whether this particular =
representation
> convention should be pursued. It just illustrates that one should also =
consider
> trade-offs with computational cost. Hence, the suggested wording =
change.

Great that is the type of thing I was looking for.  I had not considered =
the issues of algorithm and algorithm encoding because I tend to think =
of that as being a separate step from the core message structure =
encoding.  I will think about this and see if I can offer a suggest =
later today on how to word this.

> <<RS2
> >> <<RS
> >>> Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to =
identities
> >>> are out of scope for the working group
> >> RS>> I suggest to change this slightly, as follows:
> >> Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to =
identities
> >> are presently out of scope and may only be considered after =
rechartering.
> > Your wording change suggests that we might consider this later.  I
> > have no intention of considering this.  I think this is work for the =
ACE and
> CORE
> > groups to deal with not for this group.   As such I don't believe =
the change
> > helps.
> RS2>> Perhaps. It is hard for me to keep track of which group should =
do
> what. What I do know
> is that there are technical reasons to look at some of these topics. =
As an
> example, clever representation of bindings of keys and identities may =
be
> crucial for, e.g., the join protocol with 6TiSCH. It may be okay to =
tackle this
> elsewhere, but question is why and whether there would be sufficient =
critical
> mass to take on some of the micro-topics. To me, it seems that some
> representation topics benefit from a system level perspective, even if =
these
> are not on the top of the list, due to low-hanging fruit =
considerations.

Yes, there are a lot of problems in this space and there have been many =
different attempts to solve them.  Most of the solutions have had =
problems of one type or another.

Introduction - How do I know who you are the first time I see you.  I =
think, from the brief look at 6TiSCH that this is the main problem you =
are looking at.  There have been a lot of ways to go about this and none =
of them are generically good.

Certification - Given a trusted third party statement, how do you =
represent the binding of the key and the identity information.  This is =
basically the approach of X.509 certificates and OpenPGP keys.

There was yet another BOF at the last IETF on the first problem (ACME), =
as the web is currently  based on X.509 certificates it uses the them =
for the latter problem.

There are a lot of problems and a lot of solutions already in the world. =
 I would want to see something come to the fore as a single solution =
before worrying about that in this group.  Given that however, you might =
want to look at the JWT work that was done in the OAUTH working group.  =
That could encoded in COSE and potentially give you some of what you =
want.

I know that CORE/ACE are currently looking at doing some of their work =
with keys derived from DTLS sessions.  This does not give end to end, =
solutions, but can give point-to-point success.

 =20
> <<RS
> >
> >> <<RS
> >>> .
> >>>
> >>> The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE
> >>> and CoAP working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs
> >>> of these constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as
> >>> the set of use cases is expanded.
> >> RS>> I can imagine some other "constrained cluster" groups also
> >> RS>> having
> >> an interest in this work, such
> >> as 6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc. Perhaps, this is already captured under
> >> the
> > last
> >> sentence, though.
> > If we have other groups which we really think are going to need or =
use
> > this work, it makes sense to identify them sooner than later.  If we
> > have them identified then adding them now makes sense.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >> <<RS
> >>>
> >>> ----------------------------------
> >> ----------------
> >>>
> >>> For the last paragraph, I propose to change CoAP to CoRE.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Kind Regards
> >>> Kepeng
> >>>
> >>> ? 9/4/15 7:43 am, "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> ??:
> >>>
> >>>> It's kind of unfair to expect people to know where the draft
> >>>> charter is, or even what a "pull request" is. For those not in =
the
> >>>> know, the draft charter is at:
> >>>>
> >>>> =
https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.m
> >>>> d and Jim's proposed changes are are:
> >>>>     https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/pull/2
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Cose mailing list
> >>>> Cose@ietf.org
> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Cose mailing list
> >>> Cose@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >>
> >> --
> >> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
> >> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Cose mailing list
> >> Cose@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>=20
>=20
> --
> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


From nobody Fri Apr 10 06:10:18 2015
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References: <002201d07254$3ba98890$b2fc99b0$@augustcellars.com> <DD1BDF2E-7323-4DC6-ACC4-0ACE8CBF38B2@vpnc.org> <D14BF56C.530B%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> <552685F5.9030408@gmail.com> <003401d072db$3abea000$b03be000$@augustcellars.com> <5526A9A1.3060006@gmail.com> <006301d072fa$00d405f0$027c11d0$@augustcellars.com>
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Cc: Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com>, "cose@ietf.org" <cose@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
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Hi, =20

I just have a question and a suggestion.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 9, 2015, at 3:18 PM, "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rene Struik
>> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 9:33 AM
>> To: Jim Schaad; 'Kepeng Li'; 'Paul Hoffman'
>> Cc: cose@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
>>=20
>> Hi Jim:
>>=20
>> Please see below (RS2>> <<RS2).
>>=20
>> Rene
>>=20
>>> On 4/9/2015 11:38 AM, Jim Schaad wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rene Struik
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 7:00 AM
>>>> To: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad
>>>> Cc: cose@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Kepeng:
>>>>=20
>>>> Some feedback (one remark, two small suggested text tweaks) below.
>>>>=20
>>>> Best regards, Rene
>>>>=20
>>>>> On 4/8/2015 9:30 PM, Kepeng Li wrote:
>>>>> I copy the proposed texts here:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --
>>>>> -----
>>>>> -------------------------
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing
>>>>> from a JOSE to a CBOR

Shouldn't this be JOSE to COSE or JSON to CBOR?  Obviously language tweaks w=
ould be needed for the latter, but would be good to list that out explicitly=
 for someone trying to figure what this is about.
>>>>> encoding are:
>>>>> - Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.
>>>>> - Minimizing message size and code size should be considered (for
>>>>> the constrained environments where we expect to use this).
>>>>> - Improving security.
>>>> RS>> Just a remark (not a proposed change) to illustrate the
>>>> RS>> importance of
>>>> this point: improper encodings have resulted in attacks in the past,
>>>> see,
>>> e.g.,
>>>> N. Mavrogiannopoulos, F. Vercauteren, V. Velichkov, B. Preneel, A
>>>> Cross- Protocol Attack on the TLS Protocol, ACM CCS 2012.
>>>> <<RS
>>>>> - Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but
>>>>> are required for the new use cases.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Since contrained environments are one of the primary targets for
>>>>> this work, message size and code size are to be considered whenever
>>>>> decisions are made.
>>>> RS>> I suggest to change this paragraph slightly, as follows:
>>>> Since constrained environments are one of the primary targets for
>>>> this
>>> work,
>>>> message size, code size, and computational cost are to be considered
>>>> whenever decisions are made.
>>>> NOTE: sometimes, small representation differences may have larger
>>>> computational impact, e.g, when dealing with security-related objects.
>>> This is something that people would not understand without an example.
>>> (I know that I am not sure what is intended here.)  If we have to have
>>> an example then I am not sure that it makes sense.
>>>=20
>>> I would however appreciate an example of what you mean because that
>>> might suggest wording changes.
>> RS2>>
>> A simple example would be ECDSA signatures, where the signature (r,s) ove=
r a
>> message is represented as (r, 1/s) so as to avoid any inversions modulo t=
he
>> elliptic curve group size for verifiers, which could be a useful trade-of=
f in
>> environments with lots of verifications relative to signatures, such as w=
ith
>> Connected Vehicles (IEEE 1609.2/DoT, EU initiatives). NOTE: this example i=
s
>> not meant at all to trigger a debate on whether this particular represent=
ation
>> convention should be pursued. It just illustrates that one should also co=
nsider
>> trade-offs with computational cost. Hence, the suggested wording change.
>=20
> Great that is the type of thing I was looking for.  I had not considered t=
he issues of algorithm and algorithm encoding because I tend to think of tha=
t as being a separate step from the core message structure encoding.  I will=
 think about this and see if I can offer a suggest later today on how to wor=
d this.
>=20
>> <<RS2
>>>> <<RS
>>>>> Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities
>>>>> are out of scope for the working group
>>>> RS>> I suggest to change this slightly, as follows:
>>>> Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities
>>>> are presently out of scope and may only be considered after recharterin=
g.
>>> Your wording change suggests that we might consider this later.  I
>>> have no intention of considering this.  I think this is work for the ACE=
 and
>> CORE
>>> groups to deal with not for this group.   As such I don't believe the ch=
ange
>>> helps.
>> RS2>> Perhaps. It is hard for me to keep track of which group should do
>> what. What I do know
>> is that there are technical reasons to look at some of these topics. As a=
n
>> example, clever representation of bindings of keys and identities may be
>> crucial for, e.g., the join protocol with 6TiSCH. It may be okay to tackl=
e this
>> elsewhere, but question is why and whether there would be sufficient crit=
ical
>> mass to take on some of the micro-topics. To me, it seems that some
>> representation topics benefit from a system level perspective, even if th=
ese
>> are not on the top of the list, due to low-hanging fruit considerations.
>=20
> Yes, there are a lot of problems in this space and there have been many di=
fferent attempts to solve them.  Most of the solutions have had problems of o=
ne type or another.
>=20
> Introduction - How do I know who you are the first time I see you.  I thin=
k, from the brief look at 6TiSCH that this is the main problem you are looki=
ng at.  There have been a lot of ways to go about this and none of them are g=
enerically good.
>=20
> Certification - Given a trusted third party statement, how do you represen=
t the binding of the key and the identity information.  This is basically th=
e approach of X.509 certificates and OpenPGP keys.
>=20
> There was yet another BOF at the last IETF on the first problem (ACME), as=
 the web is currently  based on X.509 certificates it uses the them for the l=
atter problem.
>=20
> There are a lot of problems and a lot of solutions already in the world.  I=
 would want to see something come to the fore as a single solution before wo=
rrying about that in this group.  Given that however, you might want to look=
 at the JWT work that was done in the OAUTH working group.  That could encod=
ed in COSE and potentially give you some of what you want.
>=20
> I know that CORE/ACE are currently looking at doing some of their work wit=
h keys derived from DTLS sessions.  This does not give end to end, solutions=
, but can give point-to-point success.
>=20
>=20
>> <<RS
>>>=20
>>>> <<RS
>>>>> .
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE
>>>>> and CoAP working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs
>>>>> of these constituencies.

The DIME chair came to the JOSE session as they need help and this may be pa=
rt of what they need.  Is there a reason it's not listed?

Thanks,
Kathleen=20

>>>>> Other groups may be added to this list as
>>>>> the set of use cases is expanded.
>>>> RS>> I can imagine some other "constrained cluster" groups also
>>>> RS>> having
>>>> an interest in this work, such
>>>> as 6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc. Perhaps, this is already captured under
>>>> the
>>> last
>>>> sentence, though.
>>> If we have other groups which we really think are going to need or use
>>> this work, it makes sense to identify them sooner than later.  If we
>>> have them identified then adding them now makes sense.
>>>=20
>>> Jim
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> <<RS
>>>>>=20
>>>>> ----------------------------------
>>>> ----------------
>>>>>=20
>>>>> For the last paragraph, I propose to change CoAP to CoRE.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Kind Regards
>>>>> Kepeng
>>>>>=20
>>>>> ? 9/4/15 7:43 am, "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> ??:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> It's kind of unfair to expect people to know where the draft
>>>>>> charter is, or even what a "pull request" is. For those not in the
>>>>>> know, the draft charter is at:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.m
>>>>>> d and Jim's proposed changes are are:
>>>>>>    https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/pull/2
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Cose mailing list
>>>>>> Cose@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Cose mailing list
>>>>> Cose@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>>>=20
>>>> --
>>>> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
>>>> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Cose mailing list
>>>> Cose@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>=20
>>=20
>> --
>> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
>> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Cose mailing list
>> Cose@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: "'Kathleen Moriarty'" <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
References: <002201d07254$3ba98890$b2fc99b0$@augustcellars.com> <DD1BDF2E-7323-4DC6-ACC4-0ACE8CBF38B2@vpnc.org> <D14BF56C.530B%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> <552685F5.9030408@gmail.com> <003401d072db$3abea000$b03be000$@augustcellars.com> <5526A9A1.3060006@gmail.com> <006301d072fa$00d405f0$027c11d0$@augustcellars.com> <82EDFA60-BF3E-49B9-89AB-876EFAFABE2E@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <82EDFA60-BF3E-49B9-89AB-876EFAFABE2E@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 08:52:26 -0700
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Cc: 'Rene Struik' <rstruik.ext@gmail.com>, cose@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kathleen Moriarty
> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 6:10 AM
> To: Jim Schaad
> Cc: Rene Struik; cose@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I just have a question and a suggestion.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> > On Apr 9, 2015, at 3:18 PM, "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rene Struik
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 9:33 AM
> >> To: Jim Schaad; 'Kepeng Li'; 'Paul Hoffman'
> >> Cc: cose@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
> >>
> >> Hi Jim:
> >>
> >> Please see below (RS2>> <<RS2).
> >>
> >> Rene
> >>
> >>> On 4/9/2015 11:38 AM, Jim Schaad wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rene Struik
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 7:00 AM
> >>>> To: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad
> >>>> Cc: cose@ietf.org
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Kepeng:
> >>>>
> >>>> Some feedback (one remark, two small suggested text tweaks) below.
> >>>>
> >>>> Best regards, Rene
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 4/8/2015 9:30 PM, Kepeng Li wrote:
> >>>>> I copy the proposed texts here:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> -----
> >>>>> -------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing
> >>>>> from a JOSE to a CBOR
> 
> Shouldn't this be JOSE to COSE or JSON to CBOR?  Obviously language tweaks
> would be needed for the latter, but would be good to list that out
explicitly
> for someone trying to figure what this is about.

Yes - I changed to "JSON to CBOR".  

> >>>>> encoding are:
> >>>>> - Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.
> >>>>> - Minimizing message size and code size should be considered (for
> >>>>> the constrained environments where we expect to use this).
> >>>>> - Improving security.
> >>>> RS>> Just a remark (not a proposed change) to illustrate the
> >>>> RS>> importance of
> >>>> this point: improper encodings have resulted in attacks in the
> >>>> past, see,
> >>> e.g.,
> >>>> N. Mavrogiannopoulos, F. Vercauteren, V. Velichkov, B. Preneel, A
> >>>> Cross- Protocol Attack on the TLS Protocol, ACM CCS 2012.
> >>>> <<RS
> >>>>> - Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require,
> >>>>> but are required for the new use cases.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Since contrained environments are one of the primary targets for
> >>>>> this work, message size and code size are to be considered
> >>>>> whenever decisions are made.
> >>>> RS>> I suggest to change this paragraph slightly, as follows:
> >>>> Since constrained environments are one of the primary targets for
> >>>> this
> >>> work,
> >>>> message size, code size, and computational cost are to be
> >>>> considered whenever decisions are made.
> >>>> NOTE: sometimes, small representation differences may have larger
> >>>> computational impact, e.g, when dealing with security-related
objects.
> >>> This is something that people would not understand without an
> example.
> >>> (I know that I am not sure what is intended here.)  If we have to
> >>> have an example then I am not sure that it makes sense.
> >>>
> >>> I would however appreciate an example of what you mean because that
> >>> might suggest wording changes.
> >> RS2>>
> >> A simple example would be ECDSA signatures, where the signature (r,s)
> >> over a message is represented as (r, 1/s) so as to avoid any
> >> inversions modulo the elliptic curve group size for verifiers, which
> >> could be a useful trade-off in environments with lots of
> >> verifications relative to signatures, such as with Connected Vehicles
> >> (IEEE 1609.2/DoT, EU initiatives). NOTE: this example is not meant at
> >> all to trigger a debate on whether this particular representation
> >> convention should be pursued. It just illustrates that one should also
> consider trade-offs with computational cost. Hence, the suggested wording
> change.
> >
> > Great that is the type of thing I was looking for.  I had not considered
the
> issues of algorithm and algorithm encoding because I tend to think of that
as
> being a separate step from the core message structure encoding.  I will
think
> about this and see if I can offer a suggest later today on how to word
this.
> >
> >> <<RS2
> >>>> <<RS
> >>>>> Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to
> >>>>> identities are out of scope for the working group
> >>>> RS>> I suggest to change this slightly, as follows:
> >>>> Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to
> >>>> identities are presently out of scope and may only be considered
after
> rechartering.
> >>> Your wording change suggests that we might consider this later.  I
> >>> have no intention of considering this.  I think this is work for the
> >>> ACE and
> >> CORE
> >>> groups to deal with not for this group.   As such I don't believe the
> change
> >>> helps.
> >> RS2>> Perhaps. It is hard for me to keep track of which group should
> >> RS2>> do
> >> what. What I do know
> >> is that there are technical reasons to look at some of these topics.
> >> As an example, clever representation of bindings of keys and
> >> identities may be crucial for, e.g., the join protocol with 6TiSCH.
> >> It may be okay to tackle this elsewhere, but question is why and
> >> whether there would be sufficient critical mass to take on some of
> >> the micro-topics. To me, it seems that some representation topics
> >> benefit from a system level perspective, even if these are not on the
top
> of the list, due to low-hanging fruit considerations.
> >
> > Yes, there are a lot of problems in this space and there have been many
> different attempts to solve them.  Most of the solutions have had problems
> of one type or another.
> >
> > Introduction - How do I know who you are the first time I see you.  I
think,
> from the brief look at 6TiSCH that this is the main problem you are
looking at.
> There have been a lot of ways to go about this and none of them are
> generically good.
> >
> > Certification - Given a trusted third party statement, how do you
represent
> the binding of the key and the identity information.  This is basically
the
> approach of X.509 certificates and OpenPGP keys.
> >
> > There was yet another BOF at the last IETF on the first problem (ACME),
as
> the web is currently  based on X.509 certificates it uses the them for the
> latter problem.
> >
> > There are a lot of problems and a lot of solutions already in the world.
I
> would want to see something come to the fore as a single solution before
> worrying about that in this group.  Given that however, you might want to
> look at the JWT work that was done in the OAUTH working group.  That could
> encoded in COSE and potentially give you some of what you want.
> >
> > I know that CORE/ACE are currently looking at doing some of their work
> with keys derived from DTLS sessions.  This does not give end to end,
> solutions, but can give point-to-point success.
> >
> >
> >> <<RS
> >>>
> >>>> <<RS
> >>>>> .
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE
> >>>>> and CoAP working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs
> >>>>> of these constituencies.
> 
> The DIME chair came to the JOSE session as they need help and this may be
> part of what they need.  Is there a reason it's not listed?

I did not think about them.  Previous efforts in that group have been CMS
oriented.   I have no problems with adding them in if you think we should.

Jim

> 
> Thanks,
> Kathleen
> 
> >>>>> Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use cases is
> >>>>> expanded.
> >>>> RS>> I can imagine some other "constrained cluster" groups also
> >>>> RS>> having
> >>>> an interest in this work, such
> >>>> as 6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc. Perhaps, this is already captured under
> >>>> the
> >>> last
> >>>> sentence, though.
> >>> If we have other groups which we really think are going to need or
> >>> use this work, it makes sense to identify them sooner than later.
> >>> If we have them identified then adding them now makes sense.
> >>>
> >>> Jim
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> <<RS
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----------------------------------
> >>>> ----------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For the last paragraph, I propose to change CoAP to CoRE.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Kind Regards
> >>>>> Kepeng
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ? 9/4/15 7:43 am, "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> ??:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> It's kind of unfair to expect people to know where the draft
> >>>>>> charter is, or even what a "pull request" is. For those not in
> >>>>>> the know, the draft charter is at:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-
> charter
> >>>>>> .m d and Jim's proposed changes are are:
> >>>>>>    https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/pull/2
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Cose mailing list
> >>>>>> Cose@ietf.org
> >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Cose mailing list
> >>>>> Cose@ietf.org
> >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
> >>>> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Cose mailing list
> >>>> Cose@ietf.org
> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
> >> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Cose mailing list
> >> Cose@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cose mailing list
> > Cose@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


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Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 20:15:13 +0800
From: "Kepeng Li" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
To: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
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>Since constrained environments are one of the primary targets for this
>work, message size and code size are to be considered whenever decisions
>are made.


I propose to remove the paragraph above, since it is redundant with the
second bullet in the previous paragraph.

- Minimizing message size and code size should be considered (for the
constrained environments where we expect to use this).


Thanks,

Kind Regards
Kepeng

=D4=DA 9/4/15 9:30 am=A3=AC "Kepeng Li" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> =D0=B4=C8=EB:

>I copy the proposed texts here:
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>-------------------------
>
>Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing from a
>JOSE to a CBOR encoding are:
>- Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.
>- Minimizing message size and code size should be considered (for the
>constrained environments where we expect to use this).
>- Improving security.
>- Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but are
>required for the new use cases.
>
>Since contrained environments are one of the primary targets for this
>work, message size and code size are to be considered whenever decisions
>are made.
>
>Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are
>out of scope for the working group.
>
>The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CoAP
>working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these
>constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use
>cases is expanded.
>
>
>=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=
=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA=A1=AA
>
>
>For the last paragraph, I propose to change CoAP to CoRE.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Kind Regards
>Kepeng
>
>=D4=DA 9/4/15 7:43 am=A3=AC "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> =D0=B4=C8=EB:
>
>>It's kind of unfair to expect people to know where the draft charter is,
>>or even what a "pull request" is. For those not in the know, the draft
>>charter is at:
>>   https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
>>and Jim's proposed changes are are:
>>   https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/pull/2
>>_______________________________________________
>>Cose mailing list
>>Cose@ietf.org
>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: "'Kepeng Li'" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>, "'Paul Hoffman'" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
References: <002201d07254$3ba98890$b2fc99b0$@augustcellars.com> <DD1BDF2E-7323-4DC6-ACC4-0ACE8CBF38B2@vpnc.org> <D14BF56C.530B%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> <D15324DB.5FAA%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kepeng Li
> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 5:15 AM
> To: Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad
> Cc: cose@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
>
> >Since constrained environments are one of the primary targets for this
> >work, message size and code size are to be considered whenever
> >decisions are made.
>
>
> I propose to remove the paragraph above, since it is redundant with the
> second bullet in the previous paragraph.
>
> - Minimizing message size and code size should be considered (for the
> constrained environments where we expect to use this).

I completely agree.  I missed that when I rolled it into the set of bullets.

Jim

>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kind Regards
> Kepeng
>
> $B:_(B 9/4/15 9:30 am$B!$(B "Kepeng Li" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> $B<LF~(B:
>
> >I copy the proposed texts here:
> >
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >---
> >-
> >-------------------------
> >
> >Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing from
> >a JOSE to a CBOR encoding are:
> >- Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.
> >- Minimizing message size and code size should be considered (for the
> >constrained environments where we expect to use this).
> >- Improving security.
> >- Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but
> >are required for the new use cases.
> >
> >Since contrained environments are one of the primary targets for this
> >work, message size and code size are to be considered whenever
> >decisions are made.
> >
> >Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities
> >are out of scope for the working group.
> >
> >The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and
> >CoAP working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these
> >constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of
> >use cases is expanded.
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> -----------------
> >
> >
> >For the last paragraph, I propose to change CoAP to CoRE.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Kind Regards
> >Kepeng
> >
> >$B:_(B 9/4/15 7:43 am$B!$(B "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> $B<LF~(B:
> >
> >>It's kind of unfair to expect people to know where the draft charter
> >>is, or even what a "pull request" is. For those not in the know, the
> >>draft charter is at:
> >>
> >>https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
> >>and Jim's proposed changes are are:
> >>   https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/pull/2
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Cose mailing list
> >>Cose@ietf.org
> >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Cose mailing list
> >Cose@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: "'Rene Struik'" <rstruik.ext@gmail.com>, "'Kepeng Li'" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>, "'Paul Hoffman'" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rene Struik
> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 9:33 AM
> To: Jim Schaad; 'Kepeng Li'; 'Paul Hoffman'
> Cc: cose@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
>=20
> Hi Jim:
>=20
> Please see below (RS2>> <<RS2).
>=20
> Rene
>=20
> On 4/9/2015 11:38 AM, Jim Schaad wrote:
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rene Struik
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 7:00 AM
> >> To: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad
> >> Cc: cose@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
> >>
> >> Hi Kepeng:
> >>
> >> Some feedback (one remark, two small suggested text tweaks) below.
> >>
> >> Best regards, Rene
> >>
> >> On 4/8/2015 9:30 PM, Kepeng Li wrote:
> >>> I copy the proposed texts here:
> >>>
> >>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> --
> >>> -----
> >>> -------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing
> >>> from a JOSE to a CBOR encoding are:
> >>> - Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where =
feasible.
> >>> - Minimizing message size and code size should be considered (for
> >>> the constrained environments where we expect to use this).
> >>> - Improving security.
> >> RS>> Just a remark (not a proposed change) to illustrate the
> >> RS>> importance of
> >> this point: improper encodings have resulted in attacks in the =
past,
> >> see,
> > e.g.,
> >> N. Mavrogiannopoulos, F. Vercauteren, V. Velichkov, B. Preneel, A
> >> Cross- Protocol Attack on the TLS Protocol, ACM CCS 2012.
> >> <<RS
> >>> - Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, =
but
> >>> are required for the new use cases.
> >>>
> >>> Since contrained environments are one of the primary targets for
> >>> this work, message size and code size are to be considered =
whenever
> >>> decisions are made.
> >> RS>> I suggest to change this paragraph slightly, as follows:
> >> Since constrained environments are one of the primary targets for
> >> this
> > work,
> >> message size, code size, and computational cost are to be =
considered
> >> whenever decisions are made.
> >> NOTE: sometimes, small representation differences may have larger
> >> computational impact, e.g, when dealing with security-related =
objects.
> > This is something that people would not understand without an =
example.
> > (I know that I am not sure what is intended here.)  If we have to =
have
> > an example then I am not sure that it makes sense.
> >
> > I would however appreciate an example of what you mean because that
> > might suggest wording changes.
> RS2>>
> A simple example would be ECDSA signatures, where the signature (r,s) =
over
> a message is represented as (r, 1/s) so as to avoid any inversions =
modulo the
> elliptic curve group size for verifiers, which could be a useful =
trade-off in
> environments with lots of verifications relative to signatures, such =
as with
> Connected Vehicles (IEEE 1609.2/DoT, EU initiatives). NOTE: this =
example is
> not meant at all to trigger a debate on whether this particular =
representation
> convention should be pursued. It just illustrates that one should also
> consider trade-offs with computational cost. Hence, the suggested =
wording
> change.
> <<RS2

I have been thinking about this and think that it would not be a problem =
to include computational cost in this list, however I have been told =
that execution speed is frequently the looser when looking at the matrix =
the trio <power, memory, execution speed>.  While I recognize that =
computational complexity is not directly tied to speed, it can be =
measured in memory use as well, it would be more tied to selection of =
algorithms which the group is going to try and generally punt on to the =
groups that will be using the data format.  I don't want to include the =
text following "NOTE" and am not sure if you intended this to be =
included or not.

Jim


> >> <<RS
> >>> Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to =
identities
> >>> are out of scope for the working group
> >> RS>> I suggest to change this slightly, as follows:
> >> Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to =
identities
> >> are presently out of scope and may only be considered after =
rechartering.
> > Your wording change suggests that we might consider this later.  I
> > have no intention of considering this.  I think this is work for the =
ACE and
> CORE
> > groups to deal with not for this group.   As such I don't believe =
the change
> > helps.
> RS2>> Perhaps. It is hard for me to keep track of which group should =
do
> what. What I do know
> is that there are technical reasons to look at some of these topics. =
As an
> example, clever representation of bindings of keys and identities may =
be
> crucial for, e.g., the join protocol with 6TiSCH. It may be okay to =
tackle this
> elsewhere, but question is why and whether there would be sufficient
> critical mass to take on some of the micro-topics. To me, it seems =
that some
> representation topics benefit from a system level perspective, even if =
these
> are not on the top of the list, due to low-hanging fruit =
considerations.
> <<RS
> >
> >> <<RS
> >>> .
> >>>
> >>> The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE
> >>> and CoAP working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs
> >>> of these constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as
> >>> the set of use cases is expanded.
> >> RS>> I can imagine some other "constrained cluster" groups also
> >> RS>> having
> >> an interest in this work, such
> >> as 6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc. Perhaps, this is already captured under
> >> the
> > last
> >> sentence, though.
> > If we have other groups which we really think are going to need or =
use
> > this work, it makes sense to identify them sooner than later.  If we
> > have them identified then adding them now makes sense.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >> <<RS
> >>>
> >>> ----------------------------------
> >> ----------------
> >>>
> >>> For the last paragraph, I propose to change CoAP to CoRE.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Kind Regards
> >>> Kepeng
> >>>
> >>> ? 9/4/15 7:43 am, "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> ??:
> >>>
> >>>> It's kind of unfair to expect people to know where the draft
> >>>> charter is, or even what a "pull request" is. For those not in =
the
> >>>> know, the draft charter is at:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-
> charter.m
> >>>> d and Jim's proposed changes are are:
> >>>>     https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/pull/2
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Cose mailing list
> >>>> Cose@ietf.org
> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Cose mailing list
> >>> Cose@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >>
> >> --
> >> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
> >> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Cose mailing list
> >> Cose@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>=20
>=20
> --
> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


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I would like to get Pull Request #2 rolled into the draft charter and then I
think we are ready to send it to the ADs and IESG for review.

 

Since it is my pull request I have not done the merge preferring that it be
done by one of the others who have permissions.  If I get a message saying
do the merge request I would be happy to pull the trigger on it.

 

Jim

 


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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>I would =
like to get Pull Request #2 rolled into the draft charter and then I =
think we are ready to send it to the ADs and IESG for =
review.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Since it is my pull request I have not done the merge =
preferring that it be done by one of the others who have =
permissions.&nbsp; If I get a message saying do the merge request I =
would be happy to pull the trigger on it.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Jim<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_0433_01D076A4.FE2954A0--


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On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:
>=20
> I would like to get Pull Request #2 rolled into the draft charter and =
then I think we are ready to send it to the ADs and IESG for review.
> =20
> Since it is my pull request I have not done the merge preferring that =
it be done by one of the others who have permissions.  If I get a =
message saying do the merge request I would be happy to pull the trigger =
on it.

There seemed to be general agreement, so I accepted the pull request.

Current version is at: =
https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md

--Paul Hoffman


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Hi Jim:

Indeed, the portion after "NOTE" was meant as explanatory note in my 
original email, thereby not forming part of the proposed tweak of the 
charter text. As to whether a particular metric would be weighed 
sufficiently during a WG's work, that is of later concern. My main 
objective was to have it included in charter terms.

Rene

On 4/14/2015 1:44 PM, Jim Schaad wrote:
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rene Struik
>> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 9:33 AM
>> To: Jim Schaad; 'Kepeng Li'; 'Paul Hoffman'
>> Cc: cose@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
>>
>> Hi Jim:
>>
>> Please see below (RS2>> <<RS2).
>>
>> Rene
>>
>> On 4/9/2015 11:38 AM, Jim Schaad wrote:
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rene Struik
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 7:00 AM
>>>> To: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad
>>>> Cc: cose@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter Pull Request #2
>>>>
>>>> Hi Kepeng:
>>>>
>>>> Some feedback (one remark, two small suggested text tweaks) below.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards, Rene
>>>>
>>>> On 4/8/2015 9:30 PM, Kepeng Li wrote:
>>>>> I copy the proposed texts here:
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --
>>>>> -----
>>>>> -------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing
>>>>> from a JOSE to a CBOR encoding are:
>>>>> - Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.
>>>>> - Minimizing message size and code size should be considered (for
>>>>> the constrained environments where we expect to use this).
>>>>> - Improving security.
>>>> RS>> Just a remark (not a proposed change) to illustrate the
>>>> RS>> importance of
>>>> this point: improper encodings have resulted in attacks in the past,
>>>> see,
>>> e.g.,
>>>> N. Mavrogiannopoulos, F. Vercauteren, V. Velichkov, B. Preneel, A
>>>> Cross- Protocol Attack on the TLS Protocol, ACM CCS 2012.
>>>> <<RS
>>>>> - Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but
>>>>> are required for the new use cases.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since contrained environments are one of the primary targets for
>>>>> this work, message size and code size are to be considered whenever
>>>>> decisions are made.
>>>> RS>> I suggest to change this paragraph slightly, as follows:
>>>> Since constrained environments are one of the primary targets for
>>>> this
>>> work,
>>>> message size, code size, and computational cost are to be considered
>>>> whenever decisions are made.
>>>> NOTE: sometimes, small representation differences may have larger
>>>> computational impact, e.g, when dealing with security-related objects.
>>> This is something that people would not understand without an example.
>>> (I know that I am not sure what is intended here.)  If we have to have
>>> an example then I am not sure that it makes sense.
>>>
>>> I would however appreciate an example of what you mean because that
>>> might suggest wording changes.
>> RS2>>
>> A simple example would be ECDSA signatures, where the signature (r,s) over
>> a message is represented as (r, 1/s) so as to avoid any inversions modulo the
>> elliptic curve group size for verifiers, which could be a useful trade-off in
>> environments with lots of verifications relative to signatures, such as with
>> Connected Vehicles (IEEE 1609.2/DoT, EU initiatives). NOTE: this example is
>> not meant at all to trigger a debate on whether this particular representation
>> convention should be pursued. It just illustrates that one should also
>> consider trade-offs with computational cost. Hence, the suggested wording
>> change.
>> <<RS2
> I have been thinking about this and think that it would not be a problem to include computational cost in this list, however I have been told that execution speed is frequently the looser when looking at the matrix the trio <power, memory, execution speed>.  While I recognize that computational complexity is not directly tied to speed, it can be measured in memory use as well, it would be more tied to selection of algorithms which the group is going to try and generally punt on to the groups that will be using the data format.  I don't want to include the text following "NOTE" and am not sure if you intended this to be included or not.
>
> Jim
>
>
>>>> <<RS
>>>>> Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities
>>>>> are out of scope for the working group
>>>> RS>> I suggest to change this slightly, as follows:
>>>> Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities
>>>> are presently out of scope and may only be considered after rechartering.
>>> Your wording change suggests that we might consider this later.  I
>>> have no intention of considering this.  I think this is work for the ACE and
>> CORE
>>> groups to deal with not for this group.   As such I don't believe the change
>>> helps.
>> RS2>> Perhaps. It is hard for me to keep track of which group should do
>> what. What I do know
>> is that there are technical reasons to look at some of these topics. As an
>> example, clever representation of bindings of keys and identities may be
>> crucial for, e.g., the join protocol with 6TiSCH. It may be okay to tackle this
>> elsewhere, but question is why and whether there would be sufficient
>> critical mass to take on some of the micro-topics. To me, it seems that some
>> representation topics benefit from a system level perspective, even if these
>> are not on the top of the list, due to low-hanging fruit considerations.
>> <<RS
>>>> <<RS
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>> The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE
>>>>> and CoAP working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs
>>>>> of these constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as
>>>>> the set of use cases is expanded.
>>>> RS>> I can imagine some other "constrained cluster" groups also
>>>> RS>> having
>>>> an interest in this work, such
>>>> as 6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc. Perhaps, this is already captured under
>>>> the
>>> last
>>>> sentence, though.
>>> If we have other groups which we really think are going to need or use
>>> this work, it makes sense to identify them sooner than later.  If we
>>> have them identified then adding them now makes sense.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>>> <<RS
>>>>> ----------------------------------
>>>> ----------------
>>>>> For the last paragraph, I propose to change CoAP to CoRE.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Kind Regards
>>>>> Kepeng
>>>>>
>>>>> ? 9/4/15 7:43 am, "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> ??:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's kind of unfair to expect people to know where the draft
>>>>>> charter is, or even what a "pull request" is. For those not in the
>>>>>> know, the draft charter is at:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-
>> charter.m
>>>>>> d and Jim's proposed changes are are:
>>>>>>      https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/pull/2
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Cose mailing list
>>>>>> Cose@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Cose mailing list
>>>>> Cose@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>>> --
>>>> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
>>>> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Cose mailing list
>>>> Cose@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>
>> --
>> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
>> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Cose mailing list
>> Cose@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


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Thread-Topic: [Cose] Charter State
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Thanks Paul.

There are two other changes we might want to incorporate:

1) Proposal from Goran:
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00027.html

OLD:
"a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic formats
from JOSE, expressed in CBOR"

NEW:=20
"a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic formats
from JOSE and optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed
in CBOR=A1=B1

(2) Proposal from Kathleen:

http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00077.html

OLD:
The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CoRE
working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these
constituencies.

NEW:
The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE, CoRE
and DIME
working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these
constituencies.


Thanks,

Kind Regards
Kepeng

=D4=DA 15/4/15 2:32 am=A3=AC "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> =D0=B4=C8=EB:

>On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> I would like to get Pull Request #2 rolled into the draft charter and
>>then I think we are ready to send it to the ADs and IESG for review.
>> =20
>> Since it is my pull request I have not done the merge preferring that
>>it be done by one of the others who have permissions.  If I get a
>>message saying do the merge request I would be happy to pull the trigger
>>on it.
>
>There seemed to be general agreement, so I accepted the pull request.
>
>Current version is at:
>https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
>
>--Paul Hoffman
>
>_______________________________________________
>Cose mailing list
>Cose@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose



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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: "'Kepeng Li'" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>, "'Paul Hoffman'" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
References: <043201d076df$aa87b770$ff972650$@augustcellars.com> <50A4152F-E8F1-4890-AD03-065899ACC3BB@vpnc.org> <D153E55D.60EC%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kepeng Li
> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:59 PM
> To: Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad
> Cc: cose@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
>
> Thanks Paul.
>
> There are two other changes we might want to incorporate:
>
> 1) Proposal from Goran:
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00027.html
>
> OLD:
> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic formats
from
> JOSE, expressed in CBOR"
>
> NEW:
> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic formats
from
> JOSE and optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed in
CBOR$B!I(B

I am agnostic about including this change.  We now are much more constrained
device focused later so it might not be needed.

>
> (2) Proposal from Kathleen:
>
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00077.html
>
> OLD:
> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CoRE
> working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these
> constituencies.
>
> NEW:
> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE, CoRE
and
> DIME working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these
> constituencies.

I am not sure that DIME is a reasonable group to be coordinating with since
it is not clear that this would be the solution space they are going to
operate in.  It is true that this need something along these lines, but what
they need first is to get someone who has good knowledge of what can be done
in the group first.  Given that this is major (telecom) vendors, using CMS
might be a better fit for this

The other question if we expand this list here rather than in the wiki is
the set of groups that Rene Struik though that might be included here such
as "6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc" which seem to be much closer to the types of
groups that might use this specification going forward.

At this point, I think I would go with the list we have and start adding
more groups to the wiki.

Jim

>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kind Regards
> Kepeng
>
> $B:_(B 15/4/15 2:32 am$B!$(B "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> $B<LF~(B:
>
> >On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I would like to get Pull Request #2 rolled into the draft charter and
> >>then I think we are ready to send it to the ADs and IESG for review.
> >>
> >> Since it is my pull request I have not done the merge preferring that
> >>it be done by one of the others who have permissions.  If I get a
> >>message saying do the merge request I would be happy to pull the
> >>trigger on it.
> >
> >There seemed to be general agreement, so I accepted the pull request.
> >
> >Current version is at:
> >https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
> >
> >--Paul Hoffman
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Cose mailing list
> >Cose@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


From nobody Tue Apr 14 19:17:14 2015
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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
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References: <043201d076df$aa87b770$ff972650$@augustcellars.com> <50A4152F-E8F1-4890-AD03-065899ACC3BB@vpnc.org> <D153E55D.60EC%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> <04c701d07721$69175fb0$3b461f10$@augustcellars.com>
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
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Cc: Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>, "cose@ietf.org" <cose@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
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Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 14, 2015, at 10:10 PM, "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:=

>=20
>=20
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kepeng Li
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:59 PM
>> To: Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad
>> Cc: cose@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
>>=20
>> Thanks Paul.
>>=20
>> There are two other changes we might want to incorporate:
>>=20
>> 1) Proposal from Goran:
>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00027.html
>>=20
>> OLD:
>> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic formats
> from
>> JOSE, expressed in CBOR"
>>=20
>> NEW:
>> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic formats
> from
>> JOSE and optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed in
> CBOR=E2=80=9D
>=20
> I am agnostic about including this change.  We now are much more constrain=
ed
> device focused later so it might not be needed.
>=20
>>=20
>> (2) Proposal from Kathleen:
>>=20
>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00077.html
>>=20
>> OLD:
>> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CoR=
E
>> working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these
>> constituencies.
>>=20
>> NEW:
>> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE, CoRE
> and
>> DIME working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these
>> constituencies.
>=20
> I am not sure that DIME is a reasonable group to be coordinating with sinc=
e
> it is not clear that this would be the solution space they are going to
> operate in.  It is true that this need something along these lines, but wh=
at
> they need first is to get someone who has good knowledge of what can be do=
ne
> in the group first.  Given that this is major (telecom) vendors, using CMS=

> might be a better fit for this
>=20
> The other question if we expand this list here rather than in the wiki is
> the set of groups that Rene Struik though that might be included here such=

> as "6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc" which seem to be much closer to the types of
> groups that might use this specification going forward.
>=20
> At this point, I think I would go with the list we have and start adding
> more groups to the wiki.

I'm fine with that approach.  My point in bringing up DIME was more that the=
y need help and this *could* help them, but work needs to be done to figure o=
ut what they need at this point.  I brought it up just in case it's relevant=
 to COSE.

Thanks,
Kathleen=20
>=20
> Jim
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>>=20
>> Kind Regards
>> Kepeng
>>=20
>> =E5=9C=A8 15/4/15 2:32 am=EF=BC=8C "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>=
 =E5=86=99=E5=85=A5:
>>=20
>>> On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:=

>>>>=20
>>>> I would like to get Pull Request #2 rolled into the draft charter and
>>>> then I think we are ready to send it to the ADs and IESG for review.
>>>>=20
>>>> Since it is my pull request I have not done the merge preferring that
>>>> it be done by one of the others who have permissions.  If I get a
>>>> message saying do the merge request I would be happy to pull the
>>>> trigger on it.
>>>=20
>>> There seemed to be general agreement, so I accepted the pull request.
>>>=20
>>> Current version is at:
>>> https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
>>>=20
>>> --Paul Hoffman
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Cose mailing list
>>> Cose@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Cose mailing list
>> Cose@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


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> ´ËÓÊ¼þÊ¹ÓÃ MIME ¸ñÊ½¡£ÓÉÓÚÓÊ¼þÔÄ¶Á³ÌÐò²»ÄÜÊ¶±ð
´Ë¸ñÊ½£¬Òò´Ë£¬¿ÉÄÜÎÞ·¨Ê¶±ð¸ÃÓÊ¼þµÄ·Ö²¿»ò²¿·ÖÄÚÈÝ¡£

--B_3511938580_5977711
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	charset="GB2312"
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Hello all,

According to the recent discussions, here is the latest charter:
https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md

I also copy the texts below.

Please check the new charter and let us know if it is ready to be submitted
to our ADs. 

Thanks,

Kind Regards
Kepeng
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

CBOR Object Signing and Encryption (COSE)
 <https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md#chart
er-for-working-group> Charter for Working Group
Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise binary
format for the serialization of data structured to an extended version of
the JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR was to make this data model
more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node networks (RFC 7228).
The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations for
cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and digital
signatures, using JSON representation. This working group will reuse the
work done by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of CBOR. This will rely
on the JOSE registries, which, where this provides additional efficiency,
will be expanded with additional information.
The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or to
JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compabitility which will
enable some simplification in the adaptation process.
Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing from a
JSON to a CBOR encoding are:
* Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.
* 
* Minimizing message size, code size and computational complexity should be
considered (for the constrained environments where we expect to use this).
* 
* Improving security
* 
* Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but are
required for the new use cases.

Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are out
of scope for the working group.
The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CORE
working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these
constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use
cases is expanded.
The WG will have two deliverables:
* a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic formats
from JOSE, with optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed
in CBOR;
* registration for algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate for
constrained environments.
The Working Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for its work,
but does not intend to publish this as an RFC.
 <https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md#miles
tones> Milestones
* April 2015: Submit COSE specification as a WG item
* 
* April 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as a WG item
* 
* June 2015: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for publication as a
Proposed Standard
* 
* July 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to the IESG, for
publication as a Proposed Standard



--B_3511938580_5977711
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	charset="GB2312"
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s=
pace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:=
 14px; font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, sans-serif;"><div style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, monosp=
ace; font-size: 12px;">Hello all,</div><div style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, monosp=
ace; font-size: 12px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, monospace; f=
ont-size: 12px;">According to the recent discussions, here is the latest cha=
rter:</div><div style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, monospace; font-size: 12px;">https=
://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md</div><div st=
yle=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, monospace; font-size: 12px;"><br></div><div style=3D"f=
ont-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, monospace; font-size: 12px;">I also copy the texts below.<=
/div><div style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, monospace; font-size: 12px;"><br></div><=
div style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, monospace; font-size: 12px;">Please check the =
new charter and let us know if it is ready to be submitted to our ADs.&nbsp;=
</div><div style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, monospace; font-size: 12px;"><br></div>=
<div style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, monospace; font-size: 12px;">Thanks,</div><di=
v style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, monospace; font-size: 12px;"><br></div><div styl=
e=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, monospace; font-size: 12px;">Kind Regards</div><div st=
yle=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, monospace; font-size: 12px;">Kepeng</div><div style=3D=
"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, monospace; font-size: 12px;">---------------------------=
-----------------------------------------------------</div><div style=3D"font-=
family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, monospace; font-size: 12px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family=
: =CB=CE=CC=E5, monospace; font-size: 12px;"><h1 style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; font=
-size: 2.25em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; margin-left: 0px; lin=
e-height: 1.2; position: relative; padding-bottom: 0.3em; border-bottom-widt=
h: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);=
 color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI=
', Arial, freesans, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin=
-top: 0px !important;">CBOR Object Signing and Encryption (COSE)</h1><h2 sty=
le=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 1em; margin-bottom: 16px; line-heigh=
t: 1.225; font-size: 1.75em; position: relative; padding-bottom: 0.3em; bord=
er-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(2=
38, 238, 238); color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvet=
ica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255=
, 255);"><a id=3D"user-content-charter-for-working-group" class=3D"anchor" href=3D=
"https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md#charte=
r-for-working-group" aria-hidden=3D"true" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; backg=
round-color: transparent; color: rgb(65, 131, 196); text-decoration: none; p=
osition: absolute; top: 0px; left: 0px; display: block; padding-right: 6px; =
padding-left: 30px; margin-left: -30px; line-height: 1; background-position:=
 initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"></a>Charter for Worki=
ng Group</h2><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-botto=
m: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, '=
Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; line-height: 25px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Concise Binary Object Representation =
(CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise binary format for the serialization of data st=
ructured to an extended version of the JSON data model. One motivation for C=
BOR was to make this data model more amenable to constrained nodes and const=
rained node networks (RFC 7228).</p><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin=
-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvet=
ica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif; font-size: 16=
px; line-height: 25px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">The JOSE worki=
ng group recently completed producing representations for cryptographic keys=
, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and digital signatures, using J=
SON representation. This working group will reuse the work done by JOSE, ada=
pting it to the capabilities of CBOR. This will rely on the JOSE registries,=
 which, where this provides additional efficiency, will be expanded with add=
itional information.</p><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; m=
argin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', H=
elvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; line-hei=
ght: 25px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">The resulting formats will=
 not be cryptographically convertible from or to JOSE formats. This lack of =
a need for bit-for-bit compabitility which will enable some simplification i=
n the adaptation process.</p><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0=
px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neu=
e', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; lin=
e-height: 25px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Criteria that should =
be considered on making decisions in changing from a JSON to a CBOR encoding=
 are:&nbsp;</p><ul class=3D"task-list" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; padding:=
 0px 0px 0px 2em; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 5=
1); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, s=
ans-serif; font-size: 16px; line-height: 25px; background-color: rgb(255, 25=
5, 255);"><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;"><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-b=
ox; margin-top: 16px; margin-bottom: 16px;">Keeping the current JOSE paradig=
ms and formatting where feasible.</p></li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;=
"><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 16px; margin-bottom: 16px;">=
Minimizing message size, code size and computational complexity should be co=
nsidered (for the constrained environments where we expect to use this).</p>=
</li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;"><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; m=
argin-top: 16px; margin-bottom: 16px;">Improving security</p></li><li style=3D=
"box-sizing: border-box;"><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 16px=
; margin-bottom: 16px;">Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did no=
t require, but are required for the new use cases.</p></li></ul><p style=3D"bo=
x-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 5=
1, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesan=
s, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; line-height: 25px; background-color: rgb(255=
, 255, 255);">Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to iden=
tities are out of scope for the working group.</p><p style=3D"box-sizing: bord=
er-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-f=
amily: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif;=
 font-size: 16px; line-height: 25px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">=
The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CORE w=
orking groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these constituen=
cies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use cases is expa=
nded.</p><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 1=
6px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Sego=
e UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; line-height: 25px; back=
ground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">The WG will have two deliverables:</p><ul=
 class=3D"task-list" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; padding: 0px 0px 0px 2em; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: '=
Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif; font-si=
ze: 16px; line-height: 25px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><li styl=
e=3D"box-sizing: border-box;">a standards-track specification covering the sam=
e cryptographic formats from JOSE, with optimizations for constrained device=
 processing, expressed in CBOR;</li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;">regi=
stration for algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate for constra=
ined environments.</li></ul><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0p=
x; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue=
', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; line=
-height: 25px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">The Working Group will=
 use a wiki to track desired use cases for its work, but does not intend to =
publish this as an RFC.</p><h2 style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 1e=
m; margin-bottom: 16px; line-height: 1.225; font-size: 1.75em; position: rel=
ative; padding-bottom: 0.3em; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style:=
 solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(238, 238, 238); color: rgb(51, 51, 51); fon=
t-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-ser=
if; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><a id=3D"user-content-milestones" c=
lass=3D"anchor" href=3D"https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draf=
t-charter.md#milestones" aria-hidden=3D"true" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; b=
ackground-color: transparent; color: rgb(65, 131, 196); text-decoration: non=
e; position: absolute; top: 0px; left: 0px; display: block; padding-right: 6=
px; padding-left: 30px; margin-left: -30px; line-height: 1; background-posit=
ion: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"></a>Milestones</h=
2><ul class=3D"task-list" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; padding: 0px 0px 0px =
2em; margin-top: 0px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',=
 Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; line-h=
eight: 25px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0px !impor=
tant;"><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;"><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;=
 margin-top: 16px; margin-bottom: 16px;">April 2015: Submit COSE specificati=
on as a WG item</p></li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;"><p style=3D"box-si=
zing: border-box; margin-top: 16px; margin-bottom: 16px;">April 2015: Submit=
 COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as a WG item</p></li><li style=3D"box=
-sizing: border-box;"><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 16px; ma=
rgin-bottom: 16px;">June 2015: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for pu=
blication as a Proposed Standard</p></li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;"=
><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 16px; margin-bottom: 16px;">J=
uly 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to the IESG, for pu=
blication as a Proposed Standard</p></li></ul></div></body></html>

--B_3511938580_5977711--



From nobody Wed Apr 15 11:21:12 2015
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From: Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com>
To: "Kepeng Li" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
References: <D153EE10.611E%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 14:21:04 -0400
In-Reply-To: <D153EE10.611E%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> (Kepeng Li's message of "Wed, 15 Apr 2015 10:29:36 +0800")
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Subject: Re: [Cose] COSE Draft Charter - 20140415
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Hi,

"Kepeng Li" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> writes:

[snip]

I'm fine with the wording of the proposed charter, however...

>  Milestones
>
>   * April 2015: Submit COSE specification as a WG item
>    
>   * April 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as a WG item
>    
>   * June 2015: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for publication as a
>     Proposed Standard
>    
>   * July 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to the IESG, for
>     publication as a Proposed Standard

Do we really think these are reasonable milestones?  Considering it's
already April 15th, I suspect we wont get the first two items until May.
That will also delay the rest; I'd push the latter two items back a bit
further, maybe August and September.

That also gives us time to talk as a WG in Prague.

-derek
-- 
       Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
       derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
       Computer and Internet Security Consultant


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--001a1133f9947bb87b0513c83c7e
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> "Kepeng Li" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> writes:
>
> [snip]
>
> I'm fine with the wording of the proposed charter, however...
>
> >  Milestones
> >
> >   * April 2015: Submit COSE specification as a WG item
> >
> >   * April 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as a WG
> item
> >
> >   * June 2015: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for publication as
> a
> >     Proposed Standard
> >
> >   * July 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to the
> IESG, for
> >     publication as a Proposed Standard
>
> Do we really think these are reasonable milestones?  Considering it's
> already April 15th, I suspect we wont get the first two items until May.
> That will also delay the rest; I'd push the latter two items back a bit
> further, maybe August and September.
>
> That also gives us time to talk as a WG in Prague.
>

I love the ambitious schedule, but agree with Derek.  We have to form the
WG before you can accept the specification as a WG item.  Let's finalize
the charter and I'll work on that approval process.

It would be good for this list to work on the draft so the ambitious
schedule can be met, even with pushing it out a month or two.

Thank you,
Kathleen

>
> -derek
> --
>        Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
>        derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
>        Computer and Internet Security Consultant
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>



-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen

--001a1133f9947bb87b0513c83c7e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Derek Atkins <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:derek@ihtfp.com" target=3D"_blank">derek@ihtfp.com</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
<br>
&quot;Kepeng Li&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com">kep=
eng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com</a>&gt; writes:<br>
<br>
[snip]<br>
<br>
I&#39;m fine with the wording of the proposed charter, however...<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 Milestones<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0* April 2015: Submit COSE specification as a WG item<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0* April 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorith=
ms as a WG item<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0* June 2015: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for pu=
blication as a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Proposed Standard<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0* July 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithm=
s to the IESG, for<br>
<span class=3D"">&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0publication as a Proposed Standard=
<br>
<br>
</span>Do we really think these are reasonable milestones?=C2=A0 Considerin=
g it&#39;s<br>
already April 15th, I suspect we wont get the first two items until May.<br=
>
That will also delay the rest; I&#39;d push the latter two items back a bit=
<br>
further, maybe August and September.<br>
<br>
That also gives us time to talk as a WG in Prague.<br></blockquote><div><br=
></div><div>I love the ambitious schedule, but agree with Derek.=C2=A0 We h=
ave to form the WG before you can accept the specification as a WG item.=C2=
=A0 Let&#39;s finalize the charter and I&#39;ll work on that approval proce=
ss.</div><div><br></div><div>It would be good for this list to work on the =
draft so the ambitious schedule can be met, even with pushing it out a mont=
h or two.</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you,</div><div>Kathleen=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
-derek<br>
--<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Derek Atkins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:617-623-3745" value=3D"+161762337=
45">617-623-3745</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:derek@ihtfp.com">derek@ihtfp.c=
om</a>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"http://www=
.ihtfp.com" target=3D"_blank">www.ihtfp.com</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Computer and Internet Security Consultant<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Cose mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</d=
iv><div>Kathleen</div></div></div>
</div></div>

--001a1133f9947bb87b0513c83c7e--


From nobody Wed Apr 15 15:57:51 2015
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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: "'Derek Atkins'" <derek@ihtfp.com>, "'Kepeng Li'" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] COSE Draft Charter - 20140415
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Derek Atkins
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 11:21 AM
> To: Kepeng Li
> Cc: cose@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Cose] COSE Draft Charter - 20140415
> 
> Hi,
> 
> "Kepeng Li" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> writes:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> I'm fine with the wording of the proposed charter, however...
> 
> >  Milestones
> >
> >   * April 2015: Submit COSE specification as a WG item
> >
> >   * April 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as a WG
> > item
> >
> >   * June 2015: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for publication as
a
> >     Proposed Standard
> >
> >   * July 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to the
IESG,
> for
> >     publication as a Proposed Standard
> 
> Do we really think these are reasonable milestones?  Considering it's
already
> April 15th, I suspect we wont get the first two items until May.
> That will also delay the rest; I'd push the latter two items back a bit
further,
> maybe August and September.

Given that we don't have a working group yet, it might be just as easy to
reset the dates in terms of milestones - specifically change April to
working group formation date and set the next milestones to 5 months later.


I could have the basic structure of the algorithm draft out in a very short
amount of time.  The real discussions around that document are which of the
multiple algorithms should be included in it and which are better left to
other groups to define instead.  That is going to be partially based on the
different requirements from the groups that are looking to use the format,
and for many of them I don't know that it is clear to them what algorithms
they really want.

> 
> That also gives us time to talk as a WG in Prague.

I kind of hope that we don't have much if anything to talk about in Prague.
I kind of expect that I will be somewhat busy trying to do other things like
talking to other groups and people who might want to adopt the format into
their products.  

Jim

> 
> -derek
> --
>        Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
>        derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
>        Computer and Internet Security Consultant
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


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On 04/15/2015 04:29 AM, Kepeng Li wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> According to the recent discussions, here is the latest charter:
> https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
>
> I also copy the texts below.
>
> Please check the new charter and let us know if it is ready to be
> submitted to our ADs.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kind Regards
> Kepeng


I'm also fine with the charter, but I second Derek's doubts about the=20
Milestone schedule.

Regards,

Ludwig

--=20
Ludwig Seitz, PhD
SICS Swedish ICT AB
Ideon Science Park
Building Beta 2
Scheelev=E4gen 17
SE-223 70 Lund

Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51
http://www.sics.se


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--------------ms040300070203000901010100--


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From: "Kepeng Li" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Cose] COSE Draft Charter - 20140415
References: <D153EE10.611E%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> <sjmegnldzhr.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <058f01d077cf$6be3c810$43ab5830$@augustcellars.com>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] COSE Draft Charter - 20140415
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> specifically change April to working group formation date and set the
>next milestones to 5 months later.


Do you mean something like this:

* WG formation date + 1 month: Submit COSE specification as a WG item

* WG formation date + 5 month: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate
algorithms as a WG item

* WG formation date + 7 month: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for
publication as a Proposed Standard

* WG formation date + 11 month: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate
algorithms to the IESG, for publication as a Proposed Standard

Thanks,

Kind Regards
Kepeng



=D4=DA 16/4/15 6:56 am=A3=AC "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com> =D0=B4=C8=EB:

>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Derek Atkins
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 11:21 AM
>> To: Kepeng Li
>> Cc: cose@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Cose] COSE Draft Charter - 20140415
>>=20
>> Hi,
>>=20
>> "Kepeng Li" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> writes:
>>=20
>> [snip]
>>=20
>> I'm fine with the wording of the proposed charter, however...
>>=20
>> >  Milestones
>> >
>> >   * April 2015: Submit COSE specification as a WG item
>> >
>> >   * April 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as a WG
>> > item
>> >
>> >   * June 2015: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for publication
>>as
>a
>> >     Proposed Standard
>> >
>> >   * July 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to the
>IESG,
>> for
>> >     publication as a Proposed Standard
>>=20
>> Do we really think these are reasonable milestones?  Considering it's
>already
>> April 15th, I suspect we wont get the first two items until May.
>> That will also delay the rest; I'd push the latter two items back a bit
>further,
>> maybe August and September.
>
>Given that we don't have a working group yet, it might be just as easy to
>reset the dates in terms of milestones - specifically change April to
>working group formation date and set the next milestones to 5 months
>later.
>
>
>I could have the basic structure of the algorithm draft out in a very
>short
>amount of time.  The real discussions around that document are which of
>the
>multiple algorithms should be included in it and which are better left to
>other groups to define instead.  That is going to be partially based on
>the
>different requirements from the groups that are looking to use the format,
>and for many of them I don't know that it is clear to them what algorithms
>they really want.
>
>>=20
>> That also gives us time to talk as a WG in Prague.
>
>I kind of hope that we don't have much if anything to talk about in
>Prague.
>I kind of expect that I will be somewhat busy trying to do other things
>like
>talking to other groups and people who might want to adopt the format into
>their products. =20
>
>Jim
>
>>=20
>> -derek
>> --
>>        Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
>>        derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
>>        Computer and Internet Security Consultant
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Cose mailing list
>> Cose@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>
>_______________________________________________
>Cose mailing list
>Cose@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose



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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: "'Kepeng Li'" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
References: <D153EE10.611E%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> <sjmegnldzhr.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <058f01d077cf$6be3c810$43ab5830$@augustcellars.com> <D15684AE.6344%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] COSE Draft Charter - 20140415
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kepeng Li
> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2015 6:45 PM
> To: Jim Schaad
> Cc: cose@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Cose] COSE Draft Charter - 20140415
>
> > specifically change April to working group formation date and set the
> >next milestones to 5 months later.
>
>
> Do you mean something like this:
>
* WG formation date + 1 month: Submit COSE specification as a WG item


* WG formation date + 1 month: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate
algorithms as a WG item

* WG formation date + 6 month: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for
publication as a Proposed Standard

* WG formation date + 6 month: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate
algorithms to the IESG, for publication as a Proposed Standard

Corrected to what I intended.

Jim


>
> Thanks,
>
> Kind Regards
> Kepeng
>
>
>
> $B:_(B 16/4/15 6:56 am$B!$(B "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com> $B<LF~(B:
>
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Derek Atkins
> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 11:21 AM
> >> To: Kepeng Li
> >> Cc: cose@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Cose] COSE Draft Charter - 20140415
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> "Kepeng Li" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> writes:
> >>
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >> I'm fine with the wording of the proposed charter, however...
> >>
> >> >  Milestones
> >> >
> >> >   * April 2015: Submit COSE specification as a WG item
> >> >
> >> >   * April 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as a
> >> > WG item
> >> >
> >> >   * June 2015: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for
> >> > publication
> >>as
> >a
> >> >     Proposed Standard
> >> >
> >> >   * July 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to
> >> > the
> >IESG,
> >> for
> >> >     publication as a Proposed Standard
> >>
> >> Do we really think these are reasonable milestones?  Considering it's
> >already
> >> April 15th, I suspect we wont get the first two items until May.
> >> That will also delay the rest; I'd push the latter two items back a
> >> bit
> >further,
> >> maybe August and September.
> >
> >Given that we don't have a working group yet, it might be just as easy
> >to reset the dates in terms of milestones - specifically change April
> >to working group formation date and set the next milestones to 5 months
> >later.
> >
> >
> >I could have the basic structure of the algorithm draft out in a very
> >short amount of time.  The real discussions around that document are
> >which of the multiple algorithms should be included in it and which are
> >better left to other groups to define instead.  That is going to be
> >partially based on the different requirements from the groups that are
> >looking to use the format, and for many of them I don't know that it is
> >clear to them what algorithms they really want.
> >
> >>
> >> That also gives us time to talk as a WG in Prague.
> >
> >I kind of hope that we don't have much if anything to talk about in
> >Prague.
> >I kind of expect that I will be somewhat busy trying to do other things
> >like talking to other groups and people who might want to adopt the
> >format into their products.
> >
> >Jim
> >
> >>
> >> -derek
> >> --
> >>        Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
> >>        derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
> >>        Computer and Internet Security Consultant
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Cose mailing list
> >> Cose@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Cose mailing list
> >Cose@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


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> ´ËÓÊ¼þÊ¹ÓÃ MIME ¸ñÊ½¡£ÓÉÓÚÓÊ¼þÔÄ¶Á³ÌÐò²»ÄÜÊ¶±ð
´Ë¸ñÊ½£¬Òò´Ë£¬¿ÉÄÜÎÞ·¨Ê¶±ð¸ÃÓÊ¼þµÄ·Ö²¿»ò²¿·ÖÄÚÈÝ¡£

--B_3512114011_9781364
Content-type: text/plain;
	charset="GB2312"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hello all,

Please find the latest charter below.

@Paul / Carsten, can you help to update the web page to reflect the changes=
:
https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md

OLD:
* April 2015: Submit COSE specification as a WG item
*=20
* April 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as a WG item
*=20
* June 2015: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for publication as a
Proposed Standard
*=20
* July 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to the IESG, fo=
r
publication as a Proposed Standard

NEW:

* WG formation date + 1 month: Submit COSE specification as a WG item
*=20
* WG formation date + 1 month: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate
algorithms as a WG item
*=20
* WG formation date + 6 month: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for
publication as a Proposed Standard
*=20
* WG formation date + 6 month: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate
algorithms to the IESG, for publication as a Proposed Standard

Let=A1=AFs submit it to our ADs next week?

Kind Regards
Kepeng

---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
----

CBOR Object Signing and Encryption (COSE)
 <https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md#char=
t
er-for-working-group> Charter for Working Group
Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise binary
format for the serialization of data structured to an extended version of
the JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR was to make this data model
more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node networks (RFC 7228)=
.
The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations for
cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and digital
signatures, using JSON representation. This working group will reuse the
work done by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of CBOR. This will rely
on the JOSE registries, which, where this provides additional efficiency,
will be expanded with additional information.
The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or to
JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compabitility which will
enable some simplification in the adaptation process.
Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing from a
JSON to a CBOR encoding are:
* Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.
*=20
* Minimizing message size, code size and computational complexity should be
considered (for the constrained environments where we expect to use this).
*=20
* Improving security
*=20
* Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but are
required for the new use cases.

Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are ou=
t
of scope for the working group.
The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CORE
working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these
constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use
cases is expanded.
The WG will have two deliverables:
* a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic formats
from JOSE, with optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed
in CBOR;
* registration for algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate for
constrained environments.
The Working Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for its work,
but does not intend to publish this as an RFC.
 <https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md#mile=
s
tones> Milestones
* WG formation date + 1 month: Submit COSE specification as a WG item
*=20
* WG formation date + 1 month: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate
algorithms as a WG item
*=20
* WG formation date + 6 month: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for
publication as a Proposed Standard
*=20
* WG formation date + 6 month: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate
algorithms to the IESG, for publication as a Proposed Standard




--B_3512114011_9781364
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	charset="GB2312"
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s=
pace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-famil=
y: =CB=CE=CC=E5, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><div style=3D"font-size: 14px;">Hello a=
ll,</div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px=
;">Please find the latest charter below.</div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px;">=
<br></div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px;">@Paul / Carsten, can you help to upd=
ate the web page to reflect the changes:</div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px;">=
<a href=3D"https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.m=
d" style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, monospace; font-size: 17px;">https://github.com=
/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md</a></div><div style=3D"font=
-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px;">OLD:</div><div style=3D"=
font-size: 14px;"><ul class=3D"task-list" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; paddi=
ng: 0px 0px 0px 2em; margin-top: 0px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: '=
Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif; font-si=
ze: 16px; line-height: 25px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bo=
ttom: 0px !important;"><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;"><p style=3D"box-siz=
ing: border-box; margin-top: 16px; margin-bottom: 16px;">April 2015: Submit =
COSE specification as a WG item</p></li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;">=
<p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 16px; margin-bottom: 16px;">Ap=
ril 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as a WG item</p></l=
i><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;"><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; marg=
in-top: 16px; margin-bottom: 16px;">June 2015: Submit COSE specification to =
the IESG, for publication as a Proposed Standard</p></li><li style=3D"box-sizi=
ng: border-box;"><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 16px; margin-=
bottom: 16px;">July 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to =
the IESG, for publication as a Proposed Standard</p></li></ul></div><div sty=
le=3D"font-size: 14px;">NEW:</div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div=
 style=3D"font-size: 14px;"><ul class=3D"task-list" style=3D"box-sizing: border-bo=
x; padding: 0px 0px 0px 2em; margin-top: 0px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-f=
amily: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif;=
 line-height: 25px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0px=
 !important;"><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;"><p style=3D"box-sizing: bord=
er-box; margin-top: 16px; margin-bottom: 16px;"><span style=3D"font-size: 16px=
;">WG formation date + 1 month: Submit COSE specification as a WG item</span=
></p></li><li style=3D"font-size: 16px; box-sizing: border-box;"><p style=3D"box=
-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 16px; margin-bottom: 16px;">WG formation da=
te + 1 month: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as a WG item</p=
></li><li style=3D"font-size: 16px; box-sizing: border-box;"><p style=3D"box-siz=
ing: border-box; margin-top: 16px; margin-bottom: 16px;">WG formation date +=
 6 month: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for publication as a Propos=
ed Standard</p></li><li style=3D"font-size: 16px; box-sizing: border-box;"><p =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 16px; margin-bottom: 16px;">WG fo=
rmation date + 6 month: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to th=
e IESG, for publication as a Proposed Standard</p></li></ul></div><div style=
=3D"font-size: 14px;">Let&#8217;s submit it to our ADs next week?</div><div st=
yle=3D"font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px;">Kind Regards<=
/div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px;">Kepeng</div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px;"=
><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break=
-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; colo=
r: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, sans-serif;"><div style=3D"font-size: 12px=
; font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, monospace;">-------------------------------------------=
-------------------------------------</div><div style=3D"font-size: 12px; font=
-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, monospace;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, monospac=
e;"><h1 style=3D"font-size: 2.25em; box-sizing: border-box; margin-right: 0px;=
 margin-bottom: 16px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.2; position: relative=
; padding-bottom: 0.3em; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: soli=
d; border-bottom-color: rgb(238, 238, 238); color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-fam=
ily: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif; b=
ackground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-top: 0px !important;">CBOR Objec=
t Signing and Encryption (COSE)</h1><h2 style=3D"font-size: 1.75em; box-sizing=
: border-box; margin-top: 1em; margin-bottom: 16px; line-height: 1.225; posi=
tion: relative; padding-bottom: 0.3em; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bott=
om-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(238, 238, 238); color: rgb(51, 51,=
 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans,=
 sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><a id=3D"user-content-char=
ter-for-working-group" class=3D"anchor" href=3D"https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-=
charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md#charter-for-working-group" aria-hidden=3D=
"true" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; background-color: transparent; color: =
rgb(65, 131, 196); text-decoration: none; position: absolute; top: 0px; left=
: 0px; display: block; padding-right: 6px; padding-left: 30px; margin-left: =
-30px; line-height: 1; background-position: initial initial; background-repe=
at: initial initial;"></a>Charter for Working Group</h2><p style=3D"font-size:=
 16px; box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: =
rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial=
, freesans, sans-serif; line-height: 25px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 2=
55);">Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise bin=
ary format for the serialization of data structured to an extended version o=
f the JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR was to make this data model m=
ore amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node networks (RFC 7228).<=
/p><p style=3D"font-size: 16px; box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margi=
n-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helve=
tica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif; line-height: 25px; background=
-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">The JOSE working group recently completed produ=
cing representations for cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), =
encryption, and digital signatures, using JSON representation. This working =
group will reuse the work done by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of C=
BOR. This will rely on the JOSE registries, which, where this provides addit=
ional efficiency, will be expanded with additional information.</p><p style=3D=
"font-size: 16px; box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16=
px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe=
 UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif; line-height: 25px; background-color: rgb(=
255, 255, 255);">The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convert=
ible from or to JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compabitil=
ity which will enable some simplification in the adaptation process.</p><p s=
tyle=3D"font-size: 16px; box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-botto=
m: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, '=
Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif; line-height: 25px; background-color:=
 rgb(255, 255, 255);">Criteria that should be considered on making decisions=
 in changing from a JSON to a CBOR encoding are:&nbsp;</p><ul class=3D"task-li=
st" style=3D"font-size: 16px; box-sizing: border-box; padding: 0px 0px 0px 2em=
; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family:=
 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif; line-=
height: 25px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><li style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box;"><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 16px; margin-bott=
om: 16px;">Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.=
</p></li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;"><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-bo=
x; margin-top: 16px; margin-bottom: 16px;">Minimizing message size, code siz=
e and computational complexity should be considered (for the constrained env=
ironments where we expect to use this).</p></li><li style=3D"box-sizing: borde=
r-box;"><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 16px; margin-bottom: 1=
6px;">Improving security</p></li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;"><p styl=
e=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 16px; margin-bottom: 16px;">Providing=
 new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but are required for t=
he new use cases.</p></li></ul><p style=3D"font-size: 16px; box-sizing: border=
-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-fam=
ily: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif; l=
ine-height: 25px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Issues dealing with=
 key management and binding of keys to identities are out of scope for the w=
orking group.</p><p style=3D"font-size: 16px; box-sizing: border-box; margin-t=
op: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetic=
a Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif; line-height: 25=
px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">The Working group will coordinate=
 its progress with the ACE, DICE and CORE working groups to ensure that we a=
re fulfilling the needs of these constituencies. Other groups may be added t=
o this list as the set of use cases is expanded.</p><p style=3D"font-size: 16p=
x; box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(=
51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, fr=
eesans, sans-serif; line-height: 25px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);=
">The WG will have two deliverables:</p><ul class=3D"task-list" style=3D"font-si=
ze: 16px; box-sizing: border-box; padding: 0px 0px 0px 2em; margin-top: 0px;=
 margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',=
 Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif; line-height: 25px; back=
ground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;">a sta=
ndards-track specification covering the same cryptographic formats from JOSE=
, with optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed in CBOR;</=
li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;">registration for algorithms (such as =
AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate for constrained environments.</li></ul><p st=
yle=3D"font-size: 16px; box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom=
: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'S=
egoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif; line-height: 25px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);">The Working Group will use a wiki to track desired use =
cases for its work, but does not intend to publish this as an RFC.</p><h2 st=
yle=3D"font-size: 1.75em; box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 1em; margin-bott=
om: 16px; line-height: 1.225; position: relative; padding-bottom: 0.3em; bor=
der-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(=
238, 238, 238); color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helve=
tica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 25=
5, 255);"><a id=3D"user-content-milestones" class=3D"anchor" href=3D"https://githu=
b.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md#milestones" aria-hid=
den=3D"true" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; background-color: transparent; col=
or: rgb(65, 131, 196); text-decoration: none; position: absolute; top: 0px; =
left: 0px; display: block; padding-right: 6px; padding-left: 30px; margin-le=
ft: -30px; line-height: 1; background-position: initial initial; background-=
repeat: initial initial;"></a>Milestones</h2><ul class=3D"task-list" style=3D"bo=
x-sizing: border-box; padding: 0px 0px 0px 2em; margin-top: 0px; color: rgb(=
51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, fr=
eesans, sans-serif; line-height: 25px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);=
 margin-bottom: 0px !important;"><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;"><p styl=
e=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 16px; margin-bottom: 16px;"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size: 16px;">WG formation date + 1 month: Submit COSE specification=
 as a WG item</span></p></li><li style=3D"font-size: 16px; box-sizing: border-=
box;"><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 16px; margin-bottom: 16p=
x;">WG formation date + 1 month: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorit=
hms as a WG item</p></li><li style=3D"font-size: 16px; box-sizing: border-box;=
"><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 16px; margin-bottom: 16px;">=
WG formation date + 6 month: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for publ=
ication as a Proposed Standard</p></li><li style=3D"font-size: 16px; box-sizin=
g: border-box;"><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 16px; margin-b=
ottom: 16px;">WG formation date + 6 month: Submit COSE constrained-appropria=
te algorithms to the IESG, for publication as a Proposed Standard</p></li></=
ul></div></div></div><br></span></body></html>

--B_3512114011_9781364--



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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] COSE Draft Charter - 20140417
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This is now pull request #3

 

Jim

 

 

From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kepeng Li
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2015 8:13 PM
To: cose@ietf.org
Subject: [Cose] COSE Draft Charter - 20140417

 

Hello all,

 

Please find the latest charter below.

 

@Paul / Carsten, can you help to update the web page to reflect the changes:

 <https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md>
https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md

 

OLD:

.      April 2015: Submit COSE specification as a WG item

.      April 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as a WG
item

.      June 2015: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for publication as
a Proposed Standard

.      July 2015: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to the
IESG, for publication as a Proposed Standard

NEW:

 

.      WG formation date + 1 month: Submit COSE specification as a WG item

.      WG formation date + 1 month: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate
algorithms as a WG item

.      WG formation date + 6 month: Submit COSE specification to the IESG,
for publication as a Proposed Standard

.      WG formation date + 6 month: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate
algorithms to the IESG, for publication as a Proposed Standard

Let's submit it to our ADs next week?

 

Kind Regards

Kepeng

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

 


CBOR Object Signing and Encryption (COSE)


Charter for Working Group


Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise binary
format for the serialization of data structured to an extended version of
the JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR was to make this data model
more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node networks (RFC 7228).

The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations for
cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and digital
signatures, using JSON representation. This working group will reuse the
work done by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of CBOR. This will rely
on the JOSE registries, which, where this provides additional efficiency,
will be expanded with additional information.

The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or to
JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compabitility which will
enable some simplification in the adaptation process.

Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing from a
JSON to a CBOR encoding are: 

.      Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.

.      Minimizing message size, code size and computational complexity
should be considered (for the constrained environments where we expect to
use this).

.      Improving security

.      Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but
are required for the new use cases.

Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are out
of scope for the working group.

The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CORE
working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these
constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use
cases is expanded.

The WG will have two deliverables:

*	a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
formats from JOSE, with optimizations for constrained device processing,
expressed in CBOR;
*	registration for algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate
for constrained environments.

The Working Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for its work,
but does not intend to publish this as an RFC.


Milestones


.      WG formation date + 1 month: Submit COSE specification as a WG item

.      WG formation date + 1 month: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate
algorithms as a WG item

.      WG formation date + 6 month: Submit COSE specification to the IESG,
for publication as a Proposed Standard

.      WG formation date + 6 month: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate
algorithms to the IESG, for publication as a Proposed Standard






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--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>This is now pull request #3<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Jim<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kepeng =
Li<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 16, 2015 8:13 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
cose@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> [Cose] COSE Draft Charter - =
20140417<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Hello =
all,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Please find the latest charter =
below.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>@Paul / Carsten, can you help to =
update the web page to reflect the =
changes:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter=
.md"><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.0pt'>https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/m=
aster/draft-charter.md</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>OLD:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><d=
iv><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:18.75pt;mso-list:l4 =
level1 lfo1;background:white;box-sizing: border-box'><![if =
!supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>April 2015: =
Submit COSE specification as a WG item<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:18.75pt;mso-list:l4 =
level1 lfo1;background:white;box-sizing: border-box'><![if =
!supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>April 2015: =
Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as a WG =
item<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:18.75pt;mso-list:l4 =
level1 lfo1;background:white;box-sizing: border-box'><![if =
!supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>June 2015: =
Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for publication as a Proposed =
Standard<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:18.75pt;mso-list:l4 =
level1 lfo1;background:white;box-sizing: border-box'><![if =
!supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>July 2015: =
Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to the IESG, for =
publication as a Proposed Standard<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>NEW:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:18.75pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2;background:white;box-sizing: border-box'><![if =
!supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>WG =
formation date + 1 month: Submit COSE specification as a WG =
item</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333=
333'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:18.75pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2;background:white;box-sizing: border-box'><![if =
!supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>WG =
formation date + 1 month: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms =
as a WG item<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:18.75pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2;background:white;box-sizing: border-box'><![if =
!supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>WG =
formation date + 6 month: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for =
publication as a Proposed Standard<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:18.75pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2;background:white;box-sizing: border-box'><![if =
!supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>WG =
formation date + 6 month: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms =
to the IESG, for publication as a Proposed =
Standard<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Let<span =
lang=3DZH-CN>&#8217;</span>s submit it to our ADs next =
week?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Kind =
Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Kepeng<o:p></o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;color:black'>-----------------------------------=
---------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><=
div><div =
style=3D'mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid =
#EEEEEE 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 4.0pt 0in;background:white'><h1 =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;border:none;padding:0in;bo=
x-sizing: border-box'><span =
style=3D'font-size:23.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333=
333'>CBOR Object Signing and Encryption (COSE)<o:p></o:p></span></h1><h2 =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:0in;background:white;border:none;padding:0in;box-sizing: =
border-box'><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333=
333'>Charter for Working Group<o:p></o:p></span></h2></div><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:0in;line-height:18.75pt;background:white;box-sizing: =
border-box'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Concise =
Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise binary format =
for the serialization of data structured to an extended version of the =
JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR was to make this data model =
more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node networks (RFC =
7228).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:0in;line-height:18.75pt;background:white;box-sizing: =
border-box'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The JOSE =
working group recently completed producing representations for =
cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and =
digital signatures, using JSON representation. This working group will =
reuse the work done by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of CBOR. =
This will rely on the JOSE registries, which, where this provides =
additional efficiency, will be expanded with additional =
information.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:0in;line-height:18.75pt;background:white;box-sizing: =
border-box'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The =
resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or to =
JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compabitility which =
will enable some simplification in the adaptation =
process.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:0in;line-height:18.75pt;background:white;box-sizing: =
border-box'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Criteria =
that should be considered on making decisions in changing from a JSON to =
a CBOR encoding are:&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:18.75pt;mso-list:l3 =
level1 lfo3;background:white;box-sizing: border-box'><![if =
!supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Keeping the =
current JOSE paradigms and formatting where =
feasible.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:18.75pt;mso-list:l3 =
level1 lfo3;background:white;box-sizing: border-box'><![if =
!supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Minimizing =
message size, code size and computational complexity should be =
considered (for the constrained environments where we expect to use =
this).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:18.75pt;mso-list:l3 =
level1 lfo3;background:white;box-sizing: border-box'><![if =
!supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Improving =
security<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:18.75pt;mso-list:l3 =
level1 lfo3;background:white;box-sizing: border-box'><![if =
!supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Providing =
new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but are required =
for the new use cases.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:0in;line-height:18.75pt;background:white;box-sizing: =
border-box'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Issues =
dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are out of =
scope for the working group.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:0in;line-height:18.75pt;background:white;box-sizing: =
border-box'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The Working =
group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CORE working =
groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these =
constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use =
cases is expanded.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:0in;line-height:18.75pt;background:white;box-sizing: =
border-box'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The WG will =
have two deliverables:<o:p></o:p></span></p><ul type=3Ddisc><li =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#333333;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto=
;line-height:18.75pt;mso-list:l2 level1 =
lfo4;background:white;box-sizing: border-box'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>a standards-track =
specification covering the same cryptographic formats from JOSE, with =
optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed in =
CBOR;<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#333333;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto=
;line-height:18.75pt;mso-list:l2 level1 =
lfo4;background:white;box-sizing: border-box'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>registration for =
algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate for constrained =
environments.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:0in;line-height:18.75pt;background:white;box-sizing: =
border-box'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The Working =
Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for its work, but does =
not intend to publish this as an RFC.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid =
#EEEEEE 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 4.0pt 0in;background:white'><h2 =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:0in;background:white;border:none;padding:0in;box-sizing: =
border-box'><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333=
333'>Milestones<o:p></o:p></span></h2></div><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:18.75pt;mso-list:l1 =
level1 lfo5;background:white;box-sizing: border-box'><![if =
!supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>WG =
formation date + 1 month: Submit COSE specification as a WG =
item</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333=
333'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:18.75pt;mso-list:l1 =
level1 lfo5;background:white;box-sizing: border-box'><![if =
!supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>WG =
formation date + 1 month: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms =
as a WG item<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:18.75pt;mso-list:l1 =
level1 lfo5;background:white;box-sizing: border-box'><![if =
!supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>WG =
formation date + 6 month: Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for =
publication as a Proposed Standard<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:18.75pt;mso-list:l1 =
level1 lfo5;background:white;box-sizing: border-box'><![if =
!supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>WG =
formation date + 6 month: Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms =
to the IESG, for publication as a Proposed =
Standard<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p></di=
v></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_0111_01D07888.7B075D70--


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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: "'Kathleen Moriarty'" <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
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The date change proposed by me has been merged into the draft.

I believe that we can now consider the charter discussion to be complete =
unless anyone else has a big issue they want to bring up.

Kathleen:  Can we get this to move forward into the IESG?

Jim


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kathleen =
Moriarty
> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 7:17 PM
> To: Jim Schaad
> Cc: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; cose@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Sent from my iPhone
>=20
> > On Apr 14, 2015, at 10:10 PM, "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kepeng Li
> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:59 PM
> >> To: Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad
> >> Cc: cose@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
> >>
> >> Thanks Paul.
> >>
> >> There are two other changes we might want to incorporate:
> >>
> >> 1) Proposal from Goran:
> >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00027.html
> >>
> >> OLD:
> >> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
> >> formats
> > from
> >> JOSE, expressed in CBOR"
> >>
> >> NEW:
> >> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
> >> formats
> > from
> >> JOSE and optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed
> >> in
> > CBOR
> >
> > I am agnostic about including this change.  We now are much more
> > constrained device focused later so it might not be needed.
> >
> >>
> >> (2) Proposal from Kathleen:
> >>
> >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00077.html
> >>
> >> OLD:
> >> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE =
and
> >> CoRE working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of
> >> these constituencies.
> >>
> >> NEW:
> >> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE,
> >> CoRE
> > and
> >> DIME working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of
> >> these constituencies.
> >
> > I am not sure that DIME is a reasonable group to be coordinating =
with
> > since it is not clear that this would be the solution space they are
> > going to operate in.  It is true that this need something along =
these
> > lines, but what they need first is to get someone who has good
> > knowledge of what can be done in the group first.  Given that this =
is
> > major (telecom) vendors, using CMS might be a better fit for this
> >
> > The other question if we expand this list here rather than in the =
wiki
> > is the set of groups that Rene Struik though that might be included
> > here such as "6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc" which seem to be much closer =
to
> > the types of groups that might use this specification going forward.
> >
> > At this point, I think I would go with the list we have and start
> > adding more groups to the wiki.
>=20
> I'm fine with that approach.  My point in bringing up DIME was more =
that they
> need help and this *could* help them, but work needs to be done to =
figure
> out what they need at this point.  I brought it up just in case it's =
relevant to
> COSE.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Kathleen
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Kind Regards
> >> Kepeng
> >>
> >> ? 15/4/15 2:32 am, "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> ??:
> >>
> >>> On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I would like to get Pull Request #2 rolled into the draft charter
> >>>> and then I think we are ready to send it to the ADs and IESG for =
review.
> >>>>
> >>>> Since it is my pull request I have not done the merge preferring
> >>>> that it be done by one of the others who have permissions.  If I
> >>>> get a message saying do the merge request I would be happy to =
pull
> >>>> the trigger on it.
> >>>
> >>> There seemed to be general agreement, so I accepted the pull =
request.
> >>>
> >>> Current version is at:
> >>> =
https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
> >>>
> >>> --Paul Hoffman
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Cose mailing list
> >>> Cose@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Cose mailing list
> >> Cose@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cose mailing list
> > Cose@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


From nobody Tue Apr 21 20:26:20 2015
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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: <cose@ietf.org>
References: <20150422031948.30430.23115.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>
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Even though we don't have a working group formed yet, and thus cannot =
formally adopt any documents into the working group, I think it is time =
that we started on discussions of what the resulting document should end =
up looking like.  To this end I am going to start sending out some =
e-mails to facilitate/start discussions. =20

I have a candidate document located at =
https://github.com/cose-wg/cose-spec.  This is the document that I have =
used to generate the document that I have posted to the IETF =
(draft-schaad-cose).  Along with the document is a list of issues that I =
think need to be discussed while we are dealing with the message format =
specification =
(https://github.com/cose-wg/cose-spec/blob/master/Issues.md).  This =
document deliberately does not include those issues which I believe are =
related only to algorithm issues.  There are some algorithm looking =
issues that I believe have more to do with how the message format =
document is that are directly algorithm issues.

In addition to the list of discussion issues, there is also the issue =
tracker on the spec.  Feel free to either put issues into the tracker or =
give pull requests on things that you don't like.  For technical issues, =
we need to be sure there is discussion on the list before I would accept =
them.  For editorial issues I will just pull as I get to them and agree =
with the content.

If this document is accepted as the working group message document, I =
would expect that we will just import this repository into the =
organization created for the charter discussions.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 8:20 PM
> To: Jim Schaad; Jim Schaad
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-schaad-cose-01.txt
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-schaad-cose-01.txt has been successfully
> submitted by Jim Schaad and posted to the IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:		draft-schaad-cose
> Revision:	01
> Title:		CBOR Encoded Message Syntax
> Document date:	2015-04-21
> Group:		Individual Submission
> Pages:		28
> URL:            =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-schaad-cose-01.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-schaad-cose/
> Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-schaad-cose-01
> Diff:           =
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-schaad-cose-01
>=20
> Abstract:
>    Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) is data format designed
>    for small code size and small message size.  There is a need for =
the
>    ability to have the basic security services defined for this data
>    format.  This document specifies how to do signatures, message
>    authentication codes and encryption using this data format.  The =
work
>    in this document is derived in part from the JSON web security
>    documents using the same parameters and algorithm identifiers as =
they
>    do.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat


From nobody Tue Apr 21 20:34:36 2015
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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: <cose@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Cose] Issue:  Use arrays for some containers
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Questions:

 

1.  Should we use arrays or maps as top level containers for COSE?

 

2.  If we use arrays, should we always use nil elements to indicate absent
elements or use them only when ambiguity in parsing arises?

 

Discussion:

 

The first issue that I would like to look at is the question of using arrays
rather than maps at the top level.  For the purposes of this discussion, I
would like to assume that we are going to use integer as well as text keys
for maps where they occur.  I would also like to postpone the discussion of
using an integer vs a tag to identify the top level structures. 

 

There are some of the maps in the current JOSE specification which could be
changed to maps.  Not all of them can be changed, for example the protected
and unprotected header fields, since the contents in those cases will be
extremely fluid.  This works only for those structures which are both highly
predictable and unlikely to change in the future.

 

When I initially made the change from maps to arrays in my document, I was
assuming that there would be a significant space savings by doing so.  When
using integer values for the key of a map this expected space saving has not
been born out in practice.  This is, in part, due to a decision that I made
to put filler elements into the array to make the coding simpler.  There
would be no code to try and make a decision if elements are absent as to
what the next item would be.  For maps, this leads to an overhead of one
byte for all elements that are present in the map.  For arrays, this leads
to an overhead of one byte for all elements that are 'absent' in the array.

 

There is one argument that can be used against the use of arrays, that is
that one would be unable at a later date to easily add a new element to the
end of the array and expect people to process it.   This argument is only
true if the flattened version of the structures is kept.  If only the
arrayed version of signers and recipients is permitted then elements could
be added to the end of the array.  I am currently unable to come up with
something that I believe it would be reasonable to every want to add to a
top level structure that could not be better dealt with by adding it to the
set of protected and unprotected headers instead  In CMS the only time we
found we wanted to modify the top level structures it was when we were doing
the completely new paradigm of changing from EncryptedMessage to use
authenticated encryption algorithms.  This was dealt with by adding a
completely new structure rather than trying to modify the existing one.

 

The remaining argument for changing from maps to arrays is a question of
code implementations.  I believe, and it is mostly a belief, that the code
to evaluate the structures will be smaller when indexing arrays as opposed
to doing a map look up.  There is no significant change in the CBOR library
that would be needed.  The grammar will have both arrays and maps in it no
matter what decision is made on this topic. 

 

I made the decision in my document to use a nil filler when an array element
is absent.  It would, in theory, be possible to have the field omitted
entirely.  The issue that needs to be addressed for doing this is to make
sure that one does not end up with a sequence of values where it is not
possible to easily determine which of the optional elements is (or is not)
next.  Thus a grammar where you have an optional integer followed by an
integer can make parsing harder.  With some clever re-arranging of the
fields in the array along with occasional tagging or forced nil values it
should be possible to have omitted absent elements rather than always having
nil values for absent elements.  Doing this would likely lose the size gains
of code size, but potentially shrink the message size by a few extra bytes
in many cases. 

 

As an example, the current grammar for COSE_mac in my document is

 

COSE_mac = (

   protected : (bstr / nil),

   unprotected : (header_map / nil),

   payload : bstr,

   tag : bstr,

   ?recipients : ([+COSE_encrypt_a] / nil)

   ? COSE_encrypt

)

 

One of protected and unprotect would be required - so the nil on protected
could be removed as it would be followed by either a map or a bstr.  The nil
for unprotected could be removed as it would always be followed by a bstr.
Things are slightly more difficult if one wants to make the payload optional
as you have an optional bstr followed by a bstr.  This is a location where
the nil value would be required.  The optional nil on the recipients could
be removed as the count of elements in the group could be used to determine
if it is present.  Thus the group (removing flattening) could potentially be
encoded as

 

COSE_mac = (

   ? protected: bstr,

   ? unprotected: header_map,

   payload: (bstr / nil),

  tag: bstr,

   recipients: [+COSE_encrypt_a]

)

 

With only a single required nil value.

 

Jim

 

 

 


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Questions:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>1.&nbsp; =
Should we use arrays or maps as top level containers for =
COSE?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>2.&nbsp; If we use arrays, should we always use nil =
elements to indicate absent elements or use them only when ambiguity in =
parsing arises?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Discussion:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The first =
issue that I would like to look at is the question of using arrays =
rather than maps at the top level.&nbsp; For the purposes of this =
discussion, I would like to assume that we are going to use integer as =
well as text keys for maps where they occur.&nbsp; I would also like to =
postpone the discussion of using an integer vs a tag to identify the top =
level structures. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>There are =
some of the maps in the current JOSE specification which could be =
changed to maps.&nbsp; Not all of them can be changed, for example the =
protected and unprotected header fields, since the contents in those =
cases will be extremely fluid.&nbsp; This works only for those =
structures which are both highly predictable and unlikely to change in =
the future.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>When I initially made the change from maps to arrays =
in my document, I was assuming that there would be a significant space =
savings by doing so.&nbsp; When using integer values for the key of a =
map this expected space saving has not been born out in practice.&nbsp; =
This is, in part, due to a decision that I made to put filler elements =
into the array to make the coding simpler.&nbsp; There would be no code =
to try and make a decision if elements are absent as to what the next =
item would be.&nbsp; For maps, this leads to an overhead of one byte for =
all elements that are present in the map.&nbsp; For arrays, this leads =
to an overhead of one byte for all elements that are 'absent' in the =
array.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>There is one argument that can be used against the use =
of arrays, that is that one would be unable at a later date to easily =
add a new element to the end of the array and expect people to process =
it.&nbsp;&nbsp; This argument is only true if the flattened version of =
the structures is kept.&nbsp; If only the arrayed version of signers and =
recipients is permitted then elements could be added to the end of the =
array.&nbsp; I am currently unable to come up with something that I =
believe it would be reasonable to every want to add to a top level =
structure that could not be better dealt with by adding it to the set of =
protected and unprotected headers instead&nbsp; In CMS the only time we =
found we wanted to modify the top level structures it was when we were =
doing the completely new paradigm of changing from EncryptedMessage to =
use authenticated encryption algorithms.&nbsp; This was dealt with by =
adding a completely new structure rather than trying to modify the =
existing one.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The remaining argument for changing from maps to =
arrays is a question of code implementations.&nbsp; I believe, and it is =
mostly a belief, that the code to evaluate the structures will be =
smaller when indexing arrays as opposed to doing a map look up.&nbsp; =
There is no significant change in the CBOR library that would be =
needed.&nbsp; The grammar will have both arrays and maps in it no matter =
what decision is made on this topic. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I made the =
decision in my document to use a nil filler when an array element is =
absent.&nbsp; It would, in theory, be possible to have the field omitted =
entirely.&nbsp; The issue that needs to be addressed for doing this is =
to make sure that one does not end up with a sequence of values where it =
is not possible to easily determine which of the optional elements is =
(or is not) next.&nbsp; Thus a grammar where you have an optional =
integer followed by an integer can make parsing harder.&nbsp; With some =
clever re-arranging of the fields in the array along with occasional =
tagging or forced nil values it should be possible to have omitted =
absent elements rather than always having nil values for absent =
elements.&nbsp; Doing this would likely lose the size gains of code =
size, but potentially shrink the message size by a few extra bytes in =
many cases. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>As an example, the current grammar for COSE_mac in my =
document is<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>COSE_mac =3D (<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp; protected : (bstr / =
nil),<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp; unprotected : =
(header_map / nil),<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
payload : bstr,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp; tag : =
bstr,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp; ?recipients : =
([+COSE_encrypt_a] / nil)<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp; ? COSE_encrypt<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>)<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>One of =
protected and unprotect would be required &#8211; so the nil on =
protected could be removed as it would be followed by either a map or a =
bstr.&nbsp; The nil for unprotected could be removed as it would always =
be followed by a bstr.&nbsp; Things are slightly more difficult if one =
wants to make the payload optional as you have an optional bstr followed =
by a bstr. &nbsp;This is a location where the nil value would be =
required.&nbsp; The optional nil on the recipients could be removed as =
the count of elements in the group could be used to determine if it is =
present. &nbsp;Thus the group (removing flattening) could potentially be =
encoded as<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>COSE_mac =3D (<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp; ? protected: bstr,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp; ? unprotected: =
header_map,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;payload: =
(bstr / nil),<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal> &nbsp;&nbsp;tag: =
bstr,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp; recipients: =
[+COSE_encrypt_a]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>)<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>With only a =
single required nil value.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Jim<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_0177_01D07C72.62CDB9F0--


From nobody Tue Apr 21 21:06:02 2015
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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
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Subject: [Cose] Issue:  Create separate MAC structure
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Question:  Should we separate out MACs from Signatures?

Discussion:

I have a number of reasons that I would support this change:

.  It is easier to talk about the security properties of signatures and MACs
if they are not combined into a single structure.  The security properties
of the two items are very different and conflating them does not make for
good decisions by people who are using the message format.

* It is problematic to do recipient key management if they are in the same
structure.  The fact that signers and recipients have different structures,
means that overlapping them can lead to implementation errors if a recipient
structure is used when a signer structure is called for.  One way that has
been conceived to do the recipient management can be found in
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jones-jose-key-managed-json-web-signat
ure. 

*  Having MAC different from Signatures allows for the ability to do a clean
separation of MAC and signature code implementations when only one of them
is needed.

Why it should not be done:

*  There might be confusion of people moving from JOSE to COSE.

Jim



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Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue:  Create separate MAC structure
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On 22/04/15 05:04, Jim Schaad wrote:
> Question:  Should we separate out MACs from Signatures?
> 
> Discussion:
> 
> I have a number of reasons that I would support this change:
> 
> .  It is easier to talk about the security properties of signatures and MACs
> if they are not combined into a single structure.  The security properties
> of the two items are very different and conflating them does not make for
> good decisions by people who are using the message format.
> 
> * It is problematic to do recipient key management if they are in the same
> structure.  The fact that signers and recipients have different structures,
> means that overlapping them can lead to implementation errors if a recipient
> structure is used when a signer structure is called for.  One way that has
> been conceived to do the recipient management can be found in
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jones-jose-key-managed-json-web-signat
> ure. 
> 
> *  Having MAC different from Signatures allows for the ability to do a clean
> separation of MAC and signature code implementations when only one of them
> is needed.
> 
> Why it should not be done:
> 
> *  There might be confusion of people moving from JOSE to COSE.

You gotta choose who to confuse:-)

I agree with you - I'd prefer separating MACs and signatures at
as high a level as possible. Consuming code needs to know the
difference and should have a smaller footprint if these concepts
are not conflated and if only one of MACs or signature needs to
be supported by a device/application.

S.

> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> 


From nobody Wed Apr 22 07:03:08 2015
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On Apr 21, 2015, at 11:57 PM, Stephen Farrell =
<stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
> I agree with you - I'd prefer separating MACs and signatures at
> as high a level as possible. Consuming code needs to know the
> difference and should have a smaller footprint if these concepts
> are not conflated and if only one of MACs or signature needs to
> be supported by a device/application.

+1. The fact that they were conflated on JOSE is not relevant here. Even =
if someone was going to create a JOSE<->COSE translator, COSE separating =
them will not significantly hinder such a translator. Just to be clear, =
I don't care about such translators: COSE's use case is different than =
JOSE's.

--Paul Hoffman=


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Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue:  Use arrays for some containers
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On Apr 21, 2015, at 8:33 PM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:
>=20
> Questions:
> =20
> 1.  Should we use arrays or maps as top level containers for COSE?
> =20
> 2.  If we use arrays, should we always use nil elements to indicate =
absent elements or use them only when ambiguity in parsing arises?

1) Maps

2) But, if we do arrays, use null elements so that a decoder always gets =
the same number of elements.

For #1, unless every structure everywhere is an array, the encoder and =
decoder will need map interpretation. Given that, and given that maps =
have become a more natural way for programmers to think of bundles of =
information, choosing maps seems more likely to make COSE =
understandable. The programming cost is very low, and if using integers =
for the keys, the wire-size cost is also trivial.

--Paul Hoffman=


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Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue:  Use arrays for some containers
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On 4/21/15 9:33 PM, Jim Schaad wrote:
> Questions:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.  Should we use arrays or maps as top level containers for COSE?
> 
> 

I would prefer maps.  Since the space savings of arrays are
negligible, I'd rather have a model that lets me completely omit
things if I can.  As Paul said, COSE implementations will need to
support maps and arrays for other parts of the structure, so there's
no code savings in using arrays over maps.

> 
> 2.  If we use arrays, should we always use nil elements to
> indicate absent elements or use them only when ambiguity in parsing
> arises?
> 
> 

If arrays are used, then absent elements MUST be null.


- -- 
- - m&m

Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com >
Cisco Systems, Inc.
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue:  Create separate MAC structure
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On 4/22/15 8:03 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote:
> On Apr 21, 2015, at 11:57 PM, Stephen Farrell
> <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>> I agree with you - I'd prefer separating MACs and signatures at 
>> as high a level as possible. Consuming code needs to know the 
>> difference and should have a smaller footprint if these concepts 
>> are not conflated and if only one of MACs or signature needs to 
>> be supported by a device/application.
> 
> +1. The fact that they were conflated on JOSE is not relevant here.
> Even if someone was going to create a JOSE<->COSE translator, COSE
> separating them will not significantly hinder such a translator.
> Just to be clear, I don't care about such translators: COSE's use
> case is different than JOSE's.
> 

+1 on separating MACs from signatures.


- -- 
- - m&m

Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com >
Cisco Systems, Inc.
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue: Use arrays for some containers
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So let=E2=80=99s recap the criteria here:
=E2=80=94 representation size: =C2=A0that=E2=80=99s generally a wash (Jim=
 had a nice slide in Dallas), with a little benefit for arrays in a dense=
ly populated place and maps in more sparsely populated structures;
=E2=80=94 extensibility: Maps are obviously way more extensible. Arrays m=
ake sense mostly where extensibility is hard to imagine (and not just as =
proof by lack of imagination) or where there is another place that can ta=
ke that extension (e.g., unprotected headers);
=E2=80=94 coding effort/size: a wash for higher level language environmen=
ts (Java+). Arrays are nice for C-level programming in that the sequence =
in which you get the data is pre-determined, so there are no bugs caused =
by varying processing order or such.

Personally, I see some benefit for using arrays for small sets of data th=
at mostly are present and come in well-defined sets (e.g., the top-level =
structures for sign, mac, encrypt, and maybe the equivalent embedded sign=
ature and encrypt structures).

Completely eliding absent array elements is likely to be brittle. =C2=A0(=
There may be no need to make header maps absent, by the way, as an empty =
map is equivalent; an empty array also is a great representation of an em=
pty recipient or signature set..)

In the end, we are trying to make the representation compact enough that =
bespoke formats (such as the one proposed as a strawman in Appendix C of=C2=
=A0draft-selander-ace-object-security-01) are no longer attractive. =C2=A0=
(I=E2=80=99m not saying that that format would work or that its size must=
 be matched exactly, but it=E2=80=99s an example of what people will come=
 up with if we do COSE wrong.)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

On 22 Apr 2015 at 16:38:07, =E2=8C=98 Matt Miller (mamille2=40cisco.com) =
wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- =20
Hash: SHA512 =20

On 4/21/15 9:33 PM, Jim Schaad wrote: =20
> Questions: =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> 1. Should we use arrays or maps as top level containers for COSE=3F =20
> =20
> =20

I would prefer maps. Since the space savings of arrays are =20
negligible, I'd rather have a model that lets me completely omit =20
things if I can. As Paul said, COSE implementations will need to =20
support maps and arrays for other parts of the structure, so there's =20
no code savings in using arrays over maps. =20

> =20
> 2. If we use arrays, should we always use nil elements to =20
> indicate absent elements or use them only when ambiguity in parsing =20
> arises=3F =20
> =20
> =20

If arrays are used, then absent elements MUST be null. =20


- -- =20
- - m&m =20

Matt Miller < mamille2=40cisco.com > =20
Cisco Systems, Inc. =20
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=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F =20
Cose mailing list =20
Cose=40ietf.org =20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose =20


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<html><head><style>body=7Bfont-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px=7D</=
style></head><body style=3D=22word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s=
pace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;=22><div id=3D=22bloop=5Fcust=
omfont=22 style=3D=22font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: r=
gba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;=22>So let=E2=80=99s recap=
 the criteria here:</div><div id=3D=22bloop=5Fcustomfont=22 style=3D=22fo=
nt-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin:=
 0px; line-height: auto;=22>=E2=80=94 representation size: &nbsp;that=E2=80=
=99s generally a wash (Jim had a nice slide in Dallas), with a little ben=
efit for arrays in a densely populated place and maps in more sparsely po=
pulated structures;</div><div id=3D=22bloop=5Fcustomfont=22 style=3D=22fo=
nt-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin:=
 0px; line-height: auto;=22>=E2=80=94 extensibility: Maps are obviously w=
ay more extensible. Arrays make sense mostly where extensibility is hard =
to imagine (and not just as proof by lack of imagination) or where there =
is another place that can take that extension (e.g., unprotected headers)=
;</div><div id=3D=22bloop=5Fcustomfont=22 style=3D=22font-family:Helvetic=
a,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height:=
 auto;=22>=E2=80=94 coding effort/size: a wash for higher level language =
environments (Java+). Arrays are nice for C-level programming in that the=
 sequence in which you get the data is pre-determined, so there are no bu=
gs caused by varying processing order or such.</div><div id=3D=22bloop=5F=
customfont=22 style=3D=22font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; colo=
r: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;=22><br></div><div id=3D=
=22bloop=5Fcustomfont=22 style=3D=22font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;=22>Persona=
lly, I see some benefit for using arrays for small sets of data that most=
ly are present and come in well-defined sets (e.g., the top-level structu=
res for sign, mac, encrypt, and maybe the equivalent embedded signature a=
nd encrypt structures).</div><div id=3D=22bloop=5Fcustomfont=22 style=3D=22=
font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margi=
n: 0px; line-height: auto;=22><br></div><div id=3D=22bloop=5Fcustomfont=22=
 style=3D=22font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0=
,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;=22>Completely eliding absent array=
 elements is likely to be brittle. &nbsp;(There may be no need to make he=
ader maps absent, by the way, as an empty map is equivalent; an empty arr=
ay also is a great representation of an empty recipient or signature set.=
.)</div><div id=3D=22bloop=5Fcustomfont=22 style=3D=22font-family:Helveti=
ca,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height=
: auto;=22><br></div><div id=3D=22bloop=5Fcustomfont=22 style=3D=22font-f=
amily:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px=
; line-height: auto;=22>In the end, we are trying to make the representat=
ion compact enough that bespoke formats (such as the one proposed as a st=
rawman in Appendix C of&nbsp;draft-selander-ace-object-security-01) are n=
o longer attractive. &nbsp;(I=E2=80=99m not saying that that format would=
 work or that its size must be matched exactly, but it=E2=80=99s an examp=
le of what people will come up with if we do COSE wrong.)</div> <br> <div=
 id=3D=22bloop=5Fsign=5F1429715907205518080=22 class=3D=22bloop=5Fsign=22=
><div style=3D=22font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px=22>Gr=C3=BC=C3=
=9Fe, Carsten</div></div> <br><p style=3D=22color:=23000;=22>On 22 Apr 20=
15 at 16:38:07, =E2=8C=98 Matt Miller (<a href=3D=22mailto:mamille2=40cis=
co.com=22>mamille2=40cisco.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D=22cite=
=22 class=3D=22clean=5Fbq=22><span><div><div></div><div>-----BEGIN PGP SI=
GNED MESSAGE-----
<br>Hash: SHA512
<br>
<br>On 4/21/15 9:33 PM, Jim Schaad wrote:
<br>&gt; Questions:
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; 1.  Should we use arrays or maps as top level containers for COS=
E=3F
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>
<br>I would prefer maps.  Since the space savings of arrays are
<br>negligible, I'd rather have a model that lets me completely omit
<br>things if I can.  As Paul said, COSE implementations will need to
<br>support maps and arrays for other parts of the structure, so there's
<br>no code savings in using arrays over maps.
<br>
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; 2.  If we use arrays, should we always use nil elements to
<br>&gt; indicate absent elements or use them only when ambiguity in pars=
ing
<br>&gt; arises=3F
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>
<br>If arrays are used, then absent elements MUST be null.
<br>
<br>
<br>- -- =20
<br>- - m&amp;m
<br>
<br>Matt Miller &lt; mamille2=40cisco.com &gt;
<br>Cisco Systems, Inc.
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<br>Cose mailing list
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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 18:12:16 +0200
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From: Samuel Erdtman <samuel@erdtman.se>
To: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue: Create separate MAC structure
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+1 for separating,

And a question is there a point in translating JOSE<->COSE? If I understod
tings correctly a translation would break signatures. I could se a server
lib that would like to be able to output both COSE and JOSE signatures, but
I cannot se any problem with the separation.

Best Regards
//Samuel Erdtman

On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 4:03 PM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> wrote:

> On Apr 21, 2015, at 11:57 PM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
> wrote:
> > I agree with you - I'd prefer separating MACs and signatures at
> > as high a level as possible. Consuming code needs to know the
> > difference and should have a smaller footprint if these concepts
> > are not conflated and if only one of MACs or signature needs to
> > be supported by a device/application.
>
> +1. The fact that they were conflated on JOSE is not relevant here. Even
> if someone was going to create a JOSE<->COSE translator, COSE separating
> them will not significantly hinder such a translator. Just to be clear, I
> don't care about such translators: COSE's use case is different than JOSE's.
>
> --Paul Hoffman
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">+1 for separating,<div><br></div><div>And a question is th=
ere a point in translating JOSE&lt;-&gt;COSE? If I understod tings correctl=
y a translation would break signatures. I could se a server lib that would =
like to be able to output both COSE and JOSE signatures, but I cannot se an=
y problem with the separation.</div><div><br></div><div>Best Regards</div><=
div>//Samuel Erdtman</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 4:03 PM, Paul Hoffman <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paul.hoffman@vpnc.org" target=3D"_blank">paul.h=
offman@vpnc.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><sp=
an class=3D"">On Apr 21, 2015, at 11:57 PM, Stephen Farrell &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie">stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br>
&gt; I agree with you - I&#39;d prefer separating MACs and signatures at<br=
>
&gt; as high a level as possible. Consuming code needs to know the<br>
&gt; difference and should have a smaller footprint if these concepts<br>
&gt; are not conflated and if only one of MACs or signature needs to<br>
&gt; be supported by a device/application.<br>
<br>
</span>+1. The fact that they were conflated on JOSE is not relevant here. =
Even if someone was going to create a JOSE&lt;-&gt;COSE translator, COSE se=
parating them will not significantly hinder such a translator. Just to be c=
lear, I don&#39;t care about such translators: COSE&#39;s use case is diffe=
rent than JOSE&#39;s.<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
--Paul Hoffman<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">_____________________=
__________________________<br>
Cose mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a11c25cac40ec1f0514526d8f--


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From: Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com>
To: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue:  Use arrays for some containers
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Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> writes:

> On Apr 21, 2015, at 8:33 PM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Questions:
>>  
>> 1.  Should we use arrays or maps as top level containers for COSE?
>>  
>> 2.  If we use arrays, should we always use nil elements to indicate
>> absent elements or use them only when ambiguity in parsing arises?
>
> 1) Maps
>
> 2) But, if we do arrays, use null elements so that a decoder always
> gets the same number of elements.
>
> For #1, unless every structure everywhere is an array, the encoder and
> decoder will need map interpretation. Given that, and given that maps
> have become a more natural way for programmers to think of bundles of
> information, choosing maps seems more likely to make COSE
> understandable. The programming cost is very low, and if using
> integers for the keys, the wire-size cost is also trivial.

I agree with this.

I believe it would be less code to use maps.

I don't see the savings of using arrays; it doesn't really seem to
reduce space significantly, and it might add complexity.

> --Paul Hoffman

-derek
-- 
       Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
       derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
       Computer and Internet Security Consultant


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To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
References: <018701d07cb1$77705310$6650f930$@augustcellars.com> <55374660.4030606@cs.tcd.ie>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue:  Create separate MAC structure
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Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> writes:

> I agree with you - I'd prefer separating MACs and signatures at
> as high a level as possible. Consuming code needs to know the
> difference and should have a smaller footprint if these concepts
> are not conflated and if only one of MACs or signature needs to
> be supported by a device/application.

I agree, too.  We should separate MAC from Signature.

> S.

-derek
-- 
       Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
       derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
       Computer and Internet Security Consultant


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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 12:27:17 -0400
Message-ID: <CAHbuEH7WVZQzE5bpMeDB5_YohJqgyA5HtTgZ2gq9-U58Ri6wYA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
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Cc: "cose@ietf.org" <cose@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
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Hi,

I am assuming the current charter text is at the link:
https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md

I have some proposed changes that I think help with readability.  Let me
know if these are ok and I'll put in the charter for IESG review.  All of
the charter text is included, broken out by sections to show edits.  In
some cases, there is a Note: following a change with assumptions I was
making in case they were not correct assumptions.

Old:Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise
binary format for the serialization of data structured to an extended
version of the JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR was to make this
data model more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node networks
(RFC 7228).
New:
Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise binary
format for the serialization of data structured to an extended version of
the JSON data model. One motivation for COSE was to reuse functionality
from the JOSE working group using the CBOR data representation as it is
more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node networks (RFC 7228).

Old:
The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations for
cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and digital
signatures, using JSON representation. This working group will reuse the
work done by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of CBOR. This will rely
on the JOSE registries, which, where this provides additional efficiency,
will be expanded with additional information.
New:
The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations for
cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and digital
signatures, using JSON representation. COSE will rely on the JOSE
registries, and will be expand them with additional information when
necessary.

Note: you may have other reasons besides efficiency.

Old:
The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or to
JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compabitility which will
enable some simplification in the adaptation process.
New:
The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or to
JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compatibility will enable
some simplification in the adaptation process.

Old:

Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing from a
JSON to a CBOR encoding are:

   -

   Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.
   -

   Minimizing message size, code size and computational complexity should
   be considered (for the constrained environments where we expect to use
   this).
   -

   Improving security
   -

   Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but are
   required for the new use cases.

New:

Criteria that should be considered in the decision making process, changing
from JSON to CBOR encoding include:

   -

   Maintain the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.
   -

   Minimize message size, code size, and computational complexity to suit
   constrained environments, where this is expected to  be used.
   -

   Improve security
   -

   Provide new functionality for additional use cases that were not
   required for JOSE.

Old:
Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are
out of scope for the working group.
New:
Key management and binding of keys to identities are out of scope for the
working group.

Note: I am assuming you really want to out-of scope all key management and
not just issues?

And I don't see any need to tweak the rest of the text:

The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CORE
working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these
constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use
cases is expanded.

The WG will have two deliverables:

   - a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
   formats from JOSE, with optimizations for constrained device processing,
   expressed in CBOR;
   - registration for algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate
   for constrained environments.

The Working Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for its work,
but does not intend to publish this as an RFC.


I'd love it if you can keep to the milestones projected :-)

Thanks.
Kathleen

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:

> The date change proposed by me has been merged into the draft.
>
> I believe that we can now consider the charter discussion to be complete
> unless anyone else has a big issue they want to bring up.
>
> Kathleen:  Can we get this to move forward into the IESG?
>
> Jim
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kathleen Moriarty
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 7:17 PM
> > To: Jim Schaad
> > Cc: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; cose@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Apr 14, 2015, at 10:10 PM, "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kepeng Li
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:59 PM
> > >> To: Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad
> > >> Cc: cose@ietf.org
> > >> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
> > >>
> > >> Thanks Paul.
> > >>
> > >> There are two other changes we might want to incorporate:
> > >>
> > >> 1) Proposal from Goran:
> > >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00027.html
> > >>
> > >> OLD:
> > >> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
> > >> formats
> > > from
> > >> JOSE, expressed in CBOR"
> > >>
> > >> NEW:
> > >> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
> > >> formats
> > > from
> > >> JOSE and optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed
> > >> in
> > > CBOR
> > >
> > > I am agnostic about including this change.  We now are much more
> > > constrained device focused later so it might not be needed.
> > >
> > >>
> > >> (2) Proposal from Kathleen:
> > >>
> > >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00077.html
> > >>
> > >> OLD:
> > >> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and
> > >> CoRE working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of
> > >> these constituencies.
> > >>
> > >> NEW:
> > >> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE,
> > >> CoRE
> > > and
> > >> DIME working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of
> > >> these constituencies.
> > >
> > > I am not sure that DIME is a reasonable group to be coordinating with
> > > since it is not clear that this would be the solution space they are
> > > going to operate in.  It is true that this need something along these
> > > lines, but what they need first is to get someone who has good
> > > knowledge of what can be done in the group first.  Given that this is
> > > major (telecom) vendors, using CMS might be a better fit for this
> > >
> > > The other question if we expand this list here rather than in the wiki
> > > is the set of groups that Rene Struik though that might be included
> > > here such as "6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc" which seem to be much closer to
> > > the types of groups that might use this specification going forward.
> > >
> > > At this point, I think I would go with the list we have and start
> > > adding more groups to the wiki.
> >
> > I'm fine with that approach.  My point in bringing up DIME was more that
> they
> > need help and this *could* help them, but work needs to be done to figure
> > out what they need at this point.  I brought it up just in case it's
> relevant to
> > COSE.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Kathleen
> > >
> > > Jim
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>
> > >> Kind Regards
> > >> Kepeng
> > >>
> > >> ? 15/4/15 2:32 am, "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> ??:
> > >>
> > >>> On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I would like to get Pull Request #2 rolled into the draft charter
> > >>>> and then I think we are ready to send it to the ADs and IESG for
> review.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Since it is my pull request I have not done the merge preferring
> > >>>> that it be done by one of the others who have permissions.  If I
> > >>>> get a message saying do the merge request I would be happy to pull
> > >>>> the trigger on it.
> > >>>
> > >>> There seemed to be general agreement, so I accepted the pull request.
> > >>>
> > >>> Current version is at:
> > >>> https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
> > >>>
> > >>> --Paul Hoffman
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Cose mailing list
> > >>> Cose@ietf.org
> > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Cose mailing list
> > >> Cose@ietf.org
> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Cose mailing list
> > > Cose@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cose mailing list
> > Cose@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>
>


-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen

--001a11c35152f5e890051452a2eb
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>I am assuming the current charter t=
ext is at the link:</div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-ch=
arter/blob/master/draft-charter.md">https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter=
/blob/master/draft-charter.md</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>I have some =
proposed changes that I think help with readability.=C2=A0 Let me know if t=
hese are ok and I&#39;ll put in the charter for IESG review.=C2=A0 All of t=
he charter text is included, broken out by sections to show edits.=C2=A0 In=
 some cases, there is a Note: following a change with assumptions I was mak=
ing in case they were not correct assumptions.</div><div><br></div><div>Old=
:<span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,He=
lvetica,&#39;Segoe UI&#39;,Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-he=
ight:25.6000003814697px">Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 70=
49) is a concise binary format for the serialization of data structured to =
an extended version of the JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR was to =
make this data model more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained nod=
e networks (RFC 7228).</span><br></div>New:<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(51=
,51,51);font-family:&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,&#39;Segoe UI&#39;,A=
rial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px">Con=
cise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise binary form=
at for the serialization of data structured to an extended version of the J=
SON data model. One motivation for COSE was to reuse functionality from the=
 JOSE working group using the CBOR data representation as it is more amenab=
le to constrained nodes and constrained node networks (RFC 7228).</span><sp=
an style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvet=
ica,&#39;Segoe UI&#39;,Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height=
:25.6000003814697px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,5=
1);font-family:&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,&#39;Segoe UI&#39;,Arial,=
freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px"><br></sp=
an></div>Old:<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Helve=
tica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,&#39;Segoe UI&#39;,Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-=
size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px">The JOSE working group recently c=
ompleted producing representations for cryptographic keys, message authenti=
cation (MACs), encryption, and digital signatures, using JSON representatio=
n. This working group will reuse the work done by JOSE, adapting it to the =
capabilities of CBOR. This will rely on the JOSE registries, which, where t=
his provides additional efficiency, will be expanded with additional inform=
ation.</span></div>New:<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:=
&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,&#39;Segoe UI&#39;,Arial,freesans,sans-s=
erif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px">The JOSE working group =
recently completed producing representations for cryptographic keys, messag=
e authentication (MACs), encryption, and digital signatures, using JSON rep=
resentation. COSE will rely on the JOSE registries, and will be expand them=
 with additional information when necessary.</span><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,&#39;Segoe UI&#39=
;,Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px">=
<br></span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;H=
elvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,&#39;Segoe UI&#39;,Arial,freesans,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px"><br></span></div>Note: you ma=
y have other reasons besides efficiency.<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51=
,51);font-family:&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,&#39;Segoe UI&#39;,Aria=
l,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px"><br></=
span></div>Old:<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Hel=
vetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,&#39;Segoe UI&#39;,Arial,freesans,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px">The resulting formats will not =
be cryptographically convertible from or to JOSE formats. This lack of a ne=
ed for bit-for-bit compabitility which will enable some simplification in t=
he adaptation process.</span></div>New: <div><font color=3D"#333333" face=
=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Segoe UI, Arial, freesans, sans-serif"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px">The resulting form=
ats will not be cryptographically convertible from or to JOSE formats. This=
 lack of a need for bit-for-bit=C2=A0compatibility=C2=A0will enable some si=
mplification in the adaptation process.</span></font><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,&#39;Segoe UI&#=
39;,Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px=
"><br></span></div><div><font color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Helvetica Neue, Hel=
vetica, Segoe UI, Arial, freesans, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:16p=
x;line-height:25.6000003814697px"><br></span></font></div>Old:<div><p style=
=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;=
Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,&#39;Segoe UI&#39;,Arial,freesans,sans-serif;=
font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px">Criteria that should be cons=
idered on making decisions in changing from a JSON to a CBOR encoding are:<=
/p><ul class=3D"" style=3D"padding:0px 0px 0px 2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bo=
ttom:16px;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetic=
a,&#39;Segoe UI&#39;,Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:2=
5.6000003814697px"><li><p style=3D"margin-top:16px;margin-bottom:16px">Keep=
ing the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.</p></li><li><=
p style=3D"margin-top:16px;margin-bottom:16px">Minimizing message size, cod=
e size and computational complexity should be considered (for the constrain=
ed environments where we expect to use this).</p></li><li><p style=3D"margi=
n-top:16px;margin-bottom:16px">Improving security</p></li><li><p style=3D"m=
argin-top:16px;margin-bottom:16px">Providing new functionality that uses of=
 JOSE did not require, but are required for the new use cases.</p></li></ul=
>New: </div><div><p style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(51=
,51,51);font-family:&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,&#39;Segoe UI&#39;,A=
rial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px">Cri=
teria that should be considered in the decision making process, changing fr=
om JSON to CBOR encoding include:</p><ul class=3D"" style=3D"padding:0px 0p=
x 0px 2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family=
:&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,&#39;Segoe UI&#39;,Arial,freesans,sans-=
serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px"><li><p style=3D"margin=
-top:16px;margin-bottom:16px">Maintain the current JOSE paradigms and forma=
tting where feasible.</p></li><li><p style=3D"margin-top:16px;margin-bottom=
:16px">Minimize message size, code size, and computational complexity to su=
it constrained environments, where this is expected to =C2=A0be used.</p></=
li><li><p style=3D"margin-top:16px;margin-bottom:16px">Improve security</p>=
</li><li><p style=3D"margin-top:16px;margin-bottom:16px">Provide new functi=
onality for additional use cases that were not required for JOSE.=C2=A0</p>=
</li></ul>Old:</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#3=
9;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,&#39;Segoe UI&#39;,Arial,freesans,sans-seri=
f;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px">Issues dealing with key ma=
nagement and binding of keys to identities are out of scope for the working=
 group.</span></div>New:<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family=
:&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,&#39;Segoe UI&#39;,Arial,freesans,sans-=
serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px">Key management and bin=
ding of keys to identities are out of scope for the working group.</span><s=
pan style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helve=
tica,&#39;Segoe UI&#39;,Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-heigh=
t:25.6000003814697px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,=
51);font-family:&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,&#39;Segoe UI&#39;,Arial=
,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px"><br></s=
pan></div>Note: I am assuming you really want to out-of scope all key manag=
ement and not just issues?<div><font color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Helvetica Ne=
ue, Helvetica, Segoe UI, Arial, freesans, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px"><br></span></font></div>And I don&=
#39;t see any need to tweak the rest of the text:<div><p style=3D"margin-to=
p:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Helvetica Neu=
e&#39;,Helvetica,&#39;Segoe UI&#39;,Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16p=
x;line-height:25.6000003814697px">The Working group will coordinate its pro=
gress with the ACE, DICE and CORE working groups to ensure that we are fulf=
illing the needs of these constituencies. Other groups may be added to this=
 list as the set of use cases is expanded.</p><p style=3D"margin-top:0px;ma=
rgin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,H=
elvetica,&#39;Segoe UI&#39;,Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-h=
eight:25.6000003814697px">The WG will have two deliverables:</p><ul class=
=3D"" style=3D"padding:0px 0px 0px 2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;co=
lor:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,&#39;Segoe=
 UI&#39;,Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814=
697px"><li>a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic =
formats from JOSE, with optimizations for constrained device processing, ex=
pressed in CBOR;</li><li>registration for algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) th=
at are appropriate for constrained environments.</li></ul><p style=3D"margi=
n-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Helvetica=
 Neue&#39;,Helvetica,&#39;Segoe UI&#39;,Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size=
:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px">The Working Group will use a wiki to =
track desired use cases for its work, but does not intend to publish this a=
s an RFC.</p><p style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(51,51,=
51);font-family:&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,&#39;Segoe UI&#39;,Arial=
,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px"><br></p=
>I&#39;d love it if you can keep to the milestones projected :-)<br><br>Tha=
nks.<br>Kathleen</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote">On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Jim Schaad <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com" target=3D"_blank">ietf@augustce=
llars.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">The date=
 change proposed by me has been merged into the draft.<br>
<br>
I believe that we can now consider the charter discussion to be complete un=
less anyone else has a big issue they want to bring up.<br>
<br>
Kathleen:=C2=A0 Can we get this to move forward into the IESG?<br>
<br>
Jim<br>
<div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Cose [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org">cose-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Kathleen Moriarty<br>
&gt; Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 7:17 PM<br>
&gt; To: Jim Schaad<br>
&gt; Cc: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; <a href=3D"mailto:cose@ietf.org">cose@iet=
f.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent from my iPhone<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; On Apr 14, 2015, at 10:10 PM, &quot;Jim Schaad&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; From: Cose [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org">c=
ose-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Kepeng Li<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:59 PM<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; To: Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:cose@ietf.org">cose@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Thanks Paul.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; There are two other changes we might want to incorporate:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; 1) Proposal from Goran:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/=
msg00027.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/=
current/msg00027.html</a><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; OLD:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;a standards-track specification covering the same crypt=
ographic<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; formats<br>
&gt; &gt; from<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; JOSE, expressed in CBOR&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; NEW:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;a standards-track specification covering the same crypt=
ographic<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; formats<br>
&gt; &gt; from<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; JOSE and optimizations for constrained device processing, exp=
ressed<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; in<br>
&gt; &gt; CBOR<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I am agnostic about including this change.=C2=A0 We now are much =
more<br>
&gt; &gt; constrained device focused later so it might not be needed.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; (2) Proposal from Kathleen:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/=
msg00077.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/=
current/msg00077.html</a><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; OLD:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, =
DICE and<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; CoRE working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the need=
s of<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; these constituencies.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; NEW:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, =
DICE,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; CoRE<br>
&gt; &gt; and<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; DIME working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the need=
s of<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; these constituencies.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I am not sure that DIME is a reasonable group to be coordinating =
with<br>
&gt; &gt; since it is not clear that this would be the solution space they =
are<br>
&gt; &gt; going to operate in.=C2=A0 It is true that this need something al=
ong these<br>
&gt; &gt; lines, but what they need first is to get someone who has good<br=
>
&gt; &gt; knowledge of what can be done in the group first.=C2=A0 Given tha=
t this is<br>
&gt; &gt; major (telecom) vendors, using CMS might be a better fit for this=
<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; The other question if we expand this list here rather than in the=
 wiki<br>
&gt; &gt; is the set of groups that Rene Struik though that might be includ=
ed<br>
&gt; &gt; here such as &quot;6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc&quot; which seem to be =
much closer to<br>
&gt; &gt; the types of groups that might use this specification going forwa=
rd.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; At this point, I think I would go with the list we have and start=
<br>
&gt; &gt; adding more groups to the wiki.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I&#39;m fine with that approach.=C2=A0 My point in bringing up DIME wa=
s more that they<br>
&gt; need help and this *could* help them, but work needs to be done to fig=
ure<br>
&gt; out what they need at this point.=C2=A0 I brought it up just in case i=
t&#39;s relevant to<br>
&gt; COSE.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; Kathleen<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Jim<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Kind Regards<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Kepeng<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
</div></div>&gt; &gt;&gt; ? 15/4/15 2:32 am, &quot;Paul Hoffman&quot; &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:paul.hoffman@vpnc.org">paul.hoffman@vpnc.org</a>&gt; ??:<b=
r>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Jim Schaad &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:ietf@augustcellars.com">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would like to get Pull Request #2 rolled into the d=
raft charter<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; and then I think we are ready to send it to the ADs a=
nd IESG for review.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Since it is my pull request I have not done the merge=
 preferring<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that it be done by one of the others who have permiss=
ions.=C2=A0 If I<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; get a message saying do the merge request I would be =
happy to pull<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the trigger on it.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; There seemed to be general agreement, so I accepted the p=
ull request.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Current version is at:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/m=
aster/draft-charter.md" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-c=
harter/blob/master/draft-charter.md</a><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; --Paul Hoffman<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Cose mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Cose mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; Cose mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" target=3D"=
_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Cose mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div=
><div>Kathleen</div></div></div>
</div>

--001a11c35152f5e890051452a2eb--


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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: "'Kathleen Moriarty'" <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
References: <043201d076df$aa87b770$ff972650$@augustcellars.com> <50A4152F-E8F1-4890-AD03-065899ACC3BB@vpnc.org> <D153E55D.60EC%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> <04c701d07721$69175fb0$3b461f10$@augustcellars.com> <566CD668-1A69-4D37-A04E-98025906759D@gmail.com> <013d01d07c83$01465190$03d2f4b0$@augustcellars.com> <CAHbuEH7WVZQzE5bpMeDB5_YohJqgyA5HtTgZ2gq9-U58Ri6wYA@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
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Be my guest to make the changes.

=20

Jim

=20

=20

From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kathleen Moriarty
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 9:27 AM
To: Jim Schaad
Cc: cose@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State

=20

Hi,

=20

I am assuming the current charter text is at the link:

https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md

=20

I have some proposed changes that I think help with readability.  Let me =
know if these are ok and I'll put in the charter for IESG review.  All =
of the charter text is included, broken out by sections to show edits.  =
In some cases, there is a Note: following a change with assumptions I =
was making in case they were not correct assumptions.

=20

Old:Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise =
binary format for the serialization of data structured to an extended =
version of the JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR was to make this =
data model more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node =
networks (RFC 7228).

New:

Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise =
binary format for the serialization of data structured to an extended =
version of the JSON data model. One motivation for COSE was to reuse =
functionality from the JOSE working group using the CBOR data =
representation as it is more amenable to constrained nodes and =
constrained node networks (RFC 7228).

=20

Old:

The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations for =
cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and =
digital signatures, using JSON representation. This working group will =
reuse the work done by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of CBOR. =
This will rely on the JOSE registries, which, where this provides =
additional efficiency, will be expanded with additional information.

New:

The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations for =
cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and =
digital signatures, using JSON representation. COSE will rely on the =
JOSE registries, and will be expand them with additional information =
when necessary.

=20

Note: you may have other reasons besides efficiency.

=20

Old:

The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or =
to JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compabitility which =
will enable some simplification in the adaptation process.

New:=20

The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or =
to JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compatibility will =
enable some simplification in the adaptation process.

=20

Old:

Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing from =
a JSON to a CBOR encoding are:

=C2=B7      Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where =
feasible.

=C2=B7      Minimizing message size, code size and computational =
complexity should be considered (for the constrained environments where =
we expect to use this).

=C2=B7      Improving security

=C2=B7      Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not =
require, but are required for the new use cases.

New:=20

Criteria that should be considered in the decision making process, =
changing from JSON to CBOR encoding include:

=C2=B7      Maintain the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where =
feasible.

=C2=B7      Minimize message size, code size, and computational =
complexity to suit constrained environments, where this is expected to  =
be used.

=C2=B7      Improve security

=C2=B7      Provide new functionality for additional use cases that were =
not required for JOSE.=20

Old:

Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are =
out of scope for the working group.

New:

Key management and binding of keys to identities are out of scope for =
the working group.

=20

Note: I am assuming you really want to out-of scope all key management =
and not just issues?

=20

And I don't see any need to tweak the rest of the text:

The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and =
CORE working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these =
constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use =
cases is expanded.

The WG will have two deliverables:

*	a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic =
formats from JOSE, with optimizations for constrained device processing, =
expressed in CBOR;
*	registration for algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate =
for constrained environments.

The Working Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for its =
work, but does not intend to publish this as an RFC.

=20

I'd love it if you can keep to the milestones projected :-)

Thanks.
Kathleen

=20

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> =
wrote:

The date change proposed by me has been merged into the draft.

I believe that we can now consider the charter discussion to be complete =
unless anyone else has a big issue they want to bring up.

Kathleen:  Can we get this to move forward into the IESG?

Jim



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kathleen =
Moriarty
> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 7:17 PM
> To: Jim Schaad
> Cc: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; cose@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Apr 14, 2015, at 10:10 PM, "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kepeng Li
> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:59 PM
> >> To: Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad
> >> Cc: cose@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
> >>
> >> Thanks Paul.
> >>
> >> There are two other changes we might want to incorporate:
> >>
> >> 1) Proposal from Goran:
> >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00027.html
> >>
> >> OLD:
> >> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
> >> formats
> > from
> >> JOSE, expressed in CBOR"
> >>
> >> NEW:
> >> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
> >> formats
> > from
> >> JOSE and optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed
> >> in
> > CBOR
> >
> > I am agnostic about including this change.  We now are much more
> > constrained device focused later so it might not be needed.
> >
> >>
> >> (2) Proposal from Kathleen:
> >>
> >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00077.html
> >>
> >> OLD:
> >> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE =
and
> >> CoRE working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of
> >> these constituencies.
> >>
> >> NEW:
> >> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE,
> >> CoRE
> > and
> >> DIME working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of
> >> these constituencies.
> >
> > I am not sure that DIME is a reasonable group to be coordinating =
with
> > since it is not clear that this would be the solution space they are
> > going to operate in.  It is true that this need something along =
these
> > lines, but what they need first is to get someone who has good
> > knowledge of what can be done in the group first.  Given that this =
is
> > major (telecom) vendors, using CMS might be a better fit for this
> >
> > The other question if we expand this list here rather than in the =
wiki
> > is the set of groups that Rene Struik though that might be included
> > here such as "6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc" which seem to be much closer =
to
> > the types of groups that might use this specification going forward.
> >
> > At this point, I think I would go with the list we have and start
> > adding more groups to the wiki.
>
> I'm fine with that approach.  My point in bringing up DIME was more =
that they
> need help and this *could* help them, but work needs to be done to =
figure
> out what they need at this point.  I brought it up just in case it's =
relevant to
> COSE.
>
> Thanks,
> Kathleen
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Kind Regards
> >> Kepeng
> >>

> >> ? 15/4/15 2:32 am, "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> ??:

> >>
> >>> On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I would like to get Pull Request #2 rolled into the draft charter
> >>>> and then I think we are ready to send it to the ADs and IESG for =
review.
> >>>>
> >>>> Since it is my pull request I have not done the merge preferring
> >>>> that it be done by one of the others who have permissions.  If I
> >>>> get a message saying do the merge request I would be happy to =
pull
> >>>> the trigger on it.
> >>>
> >>> There seemed to be general agreement, so I accepted the pull =
request.
> >>>
> >>> Current version is at:
> >>> =
https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
> >>>
> >>> --Paul Hoffman
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Cose mailing list
> >>> Cose@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Cose mailing list
> >> Cose@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cose mailing list
> > Cose@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose





=20

--=20

=20

Best regards,

Kathleen


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<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Be my guest to make the changes.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Jim<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kathleen =
Moriarty<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 22, 2015 9:27 AM<br><b>To:</b> =
Jim Schaad<br><b>Cc:</b> cose@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Cose] =
Charter State<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hi,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
am assuming the current charter text is at the =
link:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter=
.md">https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md=
</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
have some proposed changes that I think help with readability.&nbsp; Let =
me know if these are ok and I'll put in the charter for IESG =
review.&nbsp; All of the charter text is included, broken out by =
sections to show edits.&nbsp; In some cases, there is a Note: following =
a change with assumptions I was making in case they were not correct =
assumptions.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Old:<span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Concise =
Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise binary format =
for the serialization of data structured to an extended version of the =
JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR was to make this data model =
more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node networks (RFC =
7228).</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>New:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Concise =
Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise binary format =
for the serialization of data structured to an extended version of the =
JSON data model. One motivation for COSE was to reuse functionality from =
the JOSE working group using the CBOR data representation as it is more =
amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node networks (RFC =
7228).</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Old:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The JOSE =
working group recently completed producing representations for =
cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and =
digital signatures, using JSON representation. This working group will =
reuse the work done by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of CBOR. =
This will rely on the JOSE registries, which, where this provides =
additional efficiency, will be expanded with additional =
information.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>New:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The JOSE =
working group recently completed producing representations for =
cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and =
digital signatures, using JSON representation. COSE will rely on the =
JOSE registries, and will be expand them with additional information =
when necessary.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Note: =
you may have other reasons besides efficiency.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Old:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The =
resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or to =
JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compabitility which =
will enable some simplification in the adaptation =
process.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>New: =
<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The =
resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or to =
JOSE formats. This lack of a need for =
bit-for-bit&nbsp;compatibility&nbsp;will enable some simplification in =
the adaptation process.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Old:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:0in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Criteria =
that should be considered on making decisions in changing from a JSON to =
a CBOR encoding are:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:19.2pt;mso-list:l1 =
level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Keeping the =
current JOSE paradigms and formatting where =
feasible.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:19.2pt;mso-list:l1 =
level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Minimizing =
message size, code size and computational complexity should be =
considered (for the constrained environments where we expect to use =
this).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:19.2pt;mso-list:l1 =
level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Improving =
security<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:19.2pt;mso-list:l1 =
level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Providing =
new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but are required =
for the new use cases.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>New: =
<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:0in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Criteria =
that should be considered in the decision making process, changing from =
JSON to CBOR encoding include:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:19.2pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Maintain =
the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where =
feasible.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:19.2pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Minimize =
message size, code size, and computational complexity to suit =
constrained environments, where this is expected to &nbsp;be =
used.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:19.2pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Improve =
security<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:12.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;=
margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:19.2pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Provide new =
functionality for additional use cases that were not required for =
JOSE.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Old:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Issues =
dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are out of =
scope for the working group.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>New:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Key =
management and binding of keys to identities are out of scope for the =
working group.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Note: =
I am assuming you really want to out-of scope all key management and not =
just issues?<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>And I =
don't see any need to tweak the rest of the text:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:0in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The Working =
group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CORE working =
groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these =
constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use =
cases is expanded.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:0in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The WG will =
have two deliverables:<o:p></o:p></span></p><ul type=3Ddisc><li =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#333333;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto=
;line-height:19.2pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>a standards-track =
specification covering the same cryptographic formats from JOSE, with =
optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed in =
CBOR;<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#333333;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto=
;line-height:19.2pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>registration for =
algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate for constrained =
environments.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:0in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The Working =
Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for its work, but does =
not intend to publish this as an RFC.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:0in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I'd love it if you can keep to the =
milestones projected =
:-)<br><br>Thanks.<br>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Tue, =
Apr 21, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Jim Schaad &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com" =
target=3D"_blank">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The date change proposed by me has been merged into =
the draft.<br><br>I believe that we can now consider the charter =
discussion to be complete unless anyone else has a big issue they want =
to bring up.<br><br>Kathleen:&nbsp; Can we get this to move forward into =
the IESG?<br><br>Jim<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br>&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt; From: =
Cose [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org">cose-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On =
Behalf Of Kathleen Moriarty<br>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 7:17 =
PM<br>&gt; To: Jim Schaad<br>&gt; Cc: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cose@ietf.org">cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; Subject: Re: =
[Cose] Charter State<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Sent from my =
iPhone<br>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; On Apr 14, 2015, at 10:10 PM, &quot;Jim =
Schaad&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt;<br>=
&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
-----Original Message-----<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; From: Cose [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org">cose-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On =
Behalf Of Kepeng Li<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:59 =
PM<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; To: Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Cc: <a =
href=3D"mailto:cose@ietf.org">cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
Thanks Paul.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; There are two other =
changes we might want to incorporate:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
1) Proposal from Goran:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00027.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00=
027.html</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; OLD:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
&quot;a standards-track specification covering the same =
cryptographic<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; formats<br>&gt; &gt; from<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt; JOSE, expressed in CBOR&quot;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
NEW:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;a standards-track specification covering the =
same cryptographic<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; formats<br>&gt; &gt; from<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt; JOSE and optimizations for constrained device processing, =
expressed<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; in<br>&gt; &gt; CBOR<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt; I am agnostic about including this change.&nbsp; We now are much =
more<br>&gt; &gt; constrained device focused later so it might not be =
needed.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; (2) Proposal from =
Kathleen:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00077.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00=
077.html</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; OLD:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; The =
Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE =
and<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; CoRE working groups to ensure that we are =
fulfilling the needs of<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; these constituencies.<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; NEW:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; The Working Group will =
coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
CoRE<br>&gt; &gt; and<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; DIME working groups to ensure =
that we are fulfilling the needs of<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; these =
constituencies.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; I am not sure that DIME is a =
reasonable group to be coordinating with<br>&gt; &gt; since it is not =
clear that this would be the solution space they are<br>&gt; &gt; going =
to operate in.&nbsp; It is true that this need something along =
these<br>&gt; &gt; lines, but what they need first is to get someone who =
has good<br>&gt; &gt; knowledge of what can be done in the group =
first.&nbsp; Given that this is<br>&gt; &gt; major (telecom) vendors, =
using CMS might be a better fit for this<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; The =
other question if we expand this list here rather than in the =
wiki<br>&gt; &gt; is the set of groups that Rene Struik though that =
might be included<br>&gt; &gt; here such as &quot;6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, =
etc&quot; which seem to be much closer to<br>&gt; &gt; the types of =
groups that might use this specification going forward.<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; At this point, I think I would go with the list we =
have and start<br>&gt; &gt; adding more groups to the =
wiki.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I'm fine with that approach.&nbsp; My point in =
bringing up DIME was more that they<br>&gt; need help and this *could* =
help them, but work needs to be done to figure<br>&gt; out what they =
need at this point.&nbsp; I brought it up just in case it's relevant =
to<br>&gt; COSE.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt; Kathleen<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Jim<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Kind =
Regards<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Kepeng<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&gt; &gt;&gt; ? =
15/4/15 2:32 am, &quot;Paul Hoffman&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paul.hoffman@vpnc.org">paul.hoffman@vpnc.org</a>&gt; =
??:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; On Apr =
14, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Jim Schaad &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt;<br>=
&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would =
like to get Pull Request #2 rolled into the draft charter<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; and then I think we are ready to send it to the ADs and =
IESG for review.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Since =
it is my pull request I have not done the merge preferring<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that it be done by one of the others who have =
permissions.&nbsp; If I<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; get a message saying do =
the merge request I would be happy to pull<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the =
trigger on it.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; There seemed to =
be general agreement, so I accepted the pull request.<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Current version is at:<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter=
.md" =
target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/dra=
ft-charter.md</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; --Paul =
Hoffman<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; =
Cose mailing list<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Cose =
mailing list<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; =
_______________________________________________<br>&gt; &gt; Cose =
mailing list<br>&gt; &gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; &gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>&gt;<=
br>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>&gt; Cose =
mailing list<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><br =
clear=3Dall><o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-- =
<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Best =
regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></body></html>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
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Great, are others ok with the changes?  If so, I'll get it rolling.

On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote=
:

> Be my guest to make the changes.
>
>
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Kathleen
> Moriarty
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 22, 2015 9:27 AM
> *To:* Jim Schaad
>
> *Cc:* cose@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Cose] Charter State
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I am assuming the current charter text is at the link:
>
> https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
>
>
>
> I have some proposed changes that I think help with readability.  Let me
> know if these are ok and I'll put in the charter for IESG review.  All of
> the charter text is included, broken out by sections to show edits.  In
> some cases, there is a Note: following a change with assumptions I was
> making in case they were not correct assumptions.
>
>
>
> Old:Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise
> binary format for the serialization of data structured to an extended
> version of the JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR was to make this
> data model more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node networ=
ks
> (RFC 7228).
>
> New:
>
> Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise binary
> format for the serialization of data structured to an extended version of
> the JSON data model. One motivation for COSE was to reuse functionality
> from the JOSE working group using the CBOR data representation as it is
> more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node networks (RFC 722=
8).
>
>
>
> Old:
>
> The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations for
> cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and digita=
l
> signatures, using JSON representation. This working group will reuse the
> work done by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of CBOR. This will rel=
y
> on the JOSE registries, which, where this provides additional efficiency,
> will be expanded with additional information.
>
> New:
>
> The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations for
> cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and digita=
l
> signatures, using JSON representation. COSE will rely on the JOSE
> registries, and will be expand them with additional information when
> necessary.
>
>
>
> Note: you may have other reasons besides efficiency.
>
>
>
> Old:
>
> The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or t=
o
> JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compabitility which wil=
l
> enable some simplification in the adaptation process.
>
> New:
>
> The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or t=
o
> JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compatibility will enab=
le
> some simplification in the adaptation process.
>
>
>
> Old:
>
> Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing from a
> JSON to a CBOR encoding are:
>
> =C2=B7      Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasi=
ble.
>
> =C2=B7      Minimizing message size, code size and computational complexi=
ty
> should be considered (for the constrained environments where we expect to
> use this).
>
> =C2=B7      Improving security
>
> =C2=B7      Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require=
, but
> are required for the new use cases.
>
> New:
>
> Criteria that should be considered in the decision making process,
> changing from JSON to CBOR encoding include:
>
> =C2=B7      Maintain the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feas=
ible.
>
> =C2=B7      Minimize message size, code size, and computational complexit=
y to
> suit constrained environments, where this is expected to  be used.
>
> =C2=B7      Improve security
>
> =C2=B7      Provide new functionality for additional use cases that were =
not
> required for JOSE.
>
> Old:
>
> Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are
> out of scope for the working group.
>
> New:
>
> Key management and binding of keys to identities are out of scope for the
> working group.
>
>
>
> Note: I am assuming you really want to out-of scope all key management an=
d
> not just issues?
>
>
>
> And I don't see any need to tweak the rest of the text:
>
> The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and COR=
E
> working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these
> constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use
> cases is expanded.
>
> The WG will have two deliverables:
>
>    - a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
>    formats from JOSE, with optimizations for constrained device processin=
g,
>    expressed in CBOR;
>    - registration for algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate
>    for constrained environments.
>
> The Working Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for its work=
,
> but does not intend to publish this as an RFC.
>
>
>
> I'd love it if you can keep to the milestones projected :-)
>
> Thanks.
> Kathleen
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
> wrote:
>
> The date change proposed by me has been merged into the draft.
>
> I believe that we can now consider the charter discussion to be complete
> unless anyone else has a big issue they want to bring up.
>
> Kathleen:  Can we get this to move forward into the IESG?
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kathleen Moriart=
y
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 7:17 PM
> > To: Jim Schaad
> > Cc: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; cose@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Apr 14, 2015, at 10:10 PM, "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kepeng Li
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:59 PM
> > >> To: Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad
> > >> Cc: cose@ietf.org
> > >> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
> > >>
> > >> Thanks Paul.
> > >>
> > >> There are two other changes we might want to incorporate:
> > >>
> > >> 1) Proposal from Goran:
> > >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00027.html
> > >>
> > >> OLD:
> > >> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
> > >> formats
> > > from
> > >> JOSE, expressed in CBOR"
> > >>
> > >> NEW:
> > >> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
> > >> formats
> > > from
> > >> JOSE and optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed
> > >> in
> > > CBOR
> > >
> > > I am agnostic about including this change.  We now are much more
> > > constrained device focused later so it might not be needed.
> > >
> > >>
> > >> (2) Proposal from Kathleen:
> > >>
> > >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00077.html
> > >>
> > >> OLD:
> > >> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE an=
d
> > >> CoRE working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of
> > >> these constituencies.
> > >>
> > >> NEW:
> > >> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE,
> > >> CoRE
> > > and
> > >> DIME working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of
> > >> these constituencies.
> > >
> > > I am not sure that DIME is a reasonable group to be coordinating with
> > > since it is not clear that this would be the solution space they are
> > > going to operate in.  It is true that this need something along these
> > > lines, but what they need first is to get someone who has good
> > > knowledge of what can be done in the group first.  Given that this is
> > > major (telecom) vendors, using CMS might be a better fit for this
> > >
> > > The other question if we expand this list here rather than in the wik=
i
> > > is the set of groups that Rene Struik though that might be included
> > > here such as "6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc" which seem to be much closer to
> > > the types of groups that might use this specification going forward.
> > >
> > > At this point, I think I would go with the list we have and start
> > > adding more groups to the wiki.
> >
> > I'm fine with that approach.  My point in bringing up DIME was more tha=
t
> they
> > need help and this *could* help them, but work needs to be done to figu=
re
> > out what they need at this point.  I brought it up just in case it's
> relevant to
> > COSE.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Kathleen
> > >
> > > Jim
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>
> > >> Kind Regards
> > >> Kepeng
> > >>
>
> > >> ? 15/4/15 2:32 am, "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> ??:
>
> > >>
> > >>> On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I would like to get Pull Request #2 rolled into the draft charter
> > >>>> and then I think we are ready to send it to the ADs and IESG for
> review.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Since it is my pull request I have not done the merge preferring
> > >>>> that it be done by one of the others who have permissions.  If I
> > >>>> get a message saying do the merge request I would be happy to pull
> > >>>> the trigger on it.
> > >>>
> > >>> There seemed to be general agreement, so I accepted the pull reques=
t.
> > >>>
> > >>> Current version is at:
> > >>> https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.m=
d
> > >>>
> > >>> --Paul Hoffman
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Cose mailing list
> > >>> Cose@ietf.org
> > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Cose mailing list
> > >> Cose@ietf.org
> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Cose mailing list
> > > Cose@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cose mailing list
> > Cose@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Kathleen
>



--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Great, are others ok with the changes?=C2=A0 If so, I&#39;=
ll get it rolling.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote">On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Jim Schaad <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com" target=3D"_blank">ietf@augustcella=
rs.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D=
"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&qu=
ot;;color:#1f497d">Be my guest to make the changes.<u></u><u></u></span></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Jim<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u=
></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.=
5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:so=
lid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Cose [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:cose-bo=
unces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">cose-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf O=
f </b>Kathleen Moriarty<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 22, 2015 9:27 AM<b=
r><b>To:</b> Jim Schaad</span></p><div><div class=3D"h5"><br><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:cose@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">cose@ietf.org</a><br><b>Sub=
ject:</b> Re: [Cose] Charter State<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p></div></=
div><div><div class=3D"h5"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I am assuming th=
e current charter text is at the link:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/mast=
er/draft-charter.md" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-char=
ter/blob/master/draft-charter.md</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I =
have some proposed changes that I think help with readability.=C2=A0 Let me=
 know if these are ok and I&#39;ll put in the charter for IESG review.=C2=
=A0 All of the charter text is included, broken out by sections to show edi=
ts.=C2=A0 In some cases, there is a Note: following a change with assumptio=
ns I was making in case they were not correct assumptions.<u></u><u></u></p=
></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333333">Concise Binary Object Representation (CBO=
R, RFC 7049) is a concise binary format for the serialization of data struc=
tured to an extended version of the JSON data model. One motivation for CBO=
R was to make this data model more amenable to constrained nodes and constr=
ained node networks (RFC 7228).</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal">New:<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"=
font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333333">Con=
cise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise binary form=
at for the serialization of data structured to an extended version of the J=
SON data model. One motivation for COSE was to reuse functionality from the=
 JOSE working group using the CBOR data representation as it is more amenab=
le to constrained nodes and constrained node networks (RFC 7228).</span><u>=
</u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;c=
olor:#333333">The JOSE working group recently completed producing represent=
ations for cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, a=
nd digital signatures, using JSON representation. This working group will r=
euse the work done by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of CBOR. This w=
ill rely on the JOSE registries, which, where this provides additional effi=
ciency, will be expanded with additional information.</span><u></u><u></u><=
/p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">New:<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&qu=
ot;;color:#333333">The JOSE working group recently completed producing repr=
esentations for cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encrypti=
on, and digital signatures, using JSON representation. COSE will rely on th=
e JOSE registries, and will be expand them with additional information when=
 necessary.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></=
u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note: you may have other re=
asons besides efficiency.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u><=
/u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<u></u><u></u></p><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333333">The resulting formats will not be crypt=
ographically convertible from or to JOSE formats. This lack of a need for b=
it-for-bit compabitility which will enable some simplification in the adapt=
ation process.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">New: <u=
></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quo=
t;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333333">The resulting forma=
ts will not be cryptographically convertible from or to JOSE formats. This =
lack of a need for bit-for-bit=C2=A0compatibility=C2=A0will enable some sim=
plification in the adaptation process.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
Old:<u></u><u></u></p><div><p style=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t;margin-left:0in;line-height:19.2pt"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333333">Criteria that should be c=
onsidered on making decisions in changing from a JSON to a CBOR encoding ar=
e:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p style=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t;margin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt"><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333"><span>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></span><=
/span><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;;color:#333333">Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting =
where feasible.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p style=3D"margin-right:0in;margin=
-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt"><u></u><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333"><span>=C2=B7<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333333">Minimizing message size, code size =
and computational complexity should be considered (for the constrained envi=
ronments where we expect to use this).<u></u><u></u></span></p><p style=3D"=
margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt">=
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333"><s=
pan>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333333">Improving sec=
urity<u></u><u></u></span></p><p style=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12=
.0pt;margin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt"><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333"><span>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0=
pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></spa=
n></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans=
-serif&quot;;color:#333333">Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE d=
id not require, but are required for the new use cases.<u></u><u></u></span=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">New: <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p style=3D"m=
argin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;line-height:19.2pt"><s=
pan style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color=
:#333333">Criteria that should be considered in the decision making process=
, changing from JSON to CBOR encoding include:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p s=
tyle=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in;line-height:=
19.2pt"><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#33=
3333"><span>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333333">Main=
tain the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.<u></u><u></u=
></span></p><p style=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.=
5in;line-height:19.2pt"><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
Symbol;color:#333333"><span>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New=
 Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><s=
pan style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color=
:#333333">Minimize message size, code size, and computational complexity to=
 suit constrained environments, where this is expected to =C2=A0be used.<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p><p style=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt"><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:Symbol;color:#333333"><span>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></span></span=
><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:#333333">Improve security<u></u><u></u></span></p><p style=3D"ma=
rgin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt"><u=
></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333"><spa=
n>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&=
quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333333">Provide new func=
tionality for additional use cases that were not required for JOSE.=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<u></u><u></u></p></div><=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333333">Issues dealing with key management a=
nd binding of keys to identities are out of scope for the working group.</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">New:<u></u><u></u></p><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333333">Key management and binding of keys to=
 identities are out of scope for the working group.</span><u></u><u></u></p=
></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">Note: I am assuming you really want to out-of scope all key =
management and not just issues?<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">And I don&#39;t see =
any need to tweak the rest of the text:<u></u><u></u></p><div><p style=3D"m=
argin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;line-height:19.2pt"><s=
pan style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color=
:#333333">The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE=
 and CORE working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of thes=
e constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use =
cases is expanded.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p style=3D"margin-right:0in;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;line-height:19.2pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333333">The WG wi=
ll have two deliverables:<u></u><u></u></span></p><ul type=3D"disc"><li cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#333333;line-height:19.2pt"><span style=3D"=
font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">a standards-track=
 specification covering the same cryptographic formats from JOSE, with opti=
mizations for constrained device processing, expressed in CBOR;<u></u><u></=
u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#333333;line-height:19=
.2pt"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;">registration for algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate fo=
r constrained environments.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul><p style=3D"margi=
n-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;line-height:19.2pt"><span =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#33=
3333">The Working Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for its =
work, but does not intend to publish this as an RFC.<u></u><u></u></span></=
p><p style=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;line-he=
ight:19.2pt"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;;color:#333333"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al">I&#39;d love it if you can keep to the milestones projected :-)<br><br>=
Thanks.<br>Kathleen<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 =
at 6:32 PM, Jim Schaad &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com" target=
=3D"_blank">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">The date change proposed by me has been merged into the draf=
t.<br><br>I believe that we can now consider the charter discussion to be c=
omplete unless anyone else has a big issue they want to bring up.<br><br>Ka=
thleen:=C2=A0 Can we get this to move forward into the IESG?<br><br>Jim<u><=
/u><u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br><br>&gt; -----Original M=
essage-----<br>&gt; From: Cose [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">cose-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Kathleen Mor=
iarty<br>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 7:17 PM<br>&gt; To: Jim Schaad<=
br>&gt; Cc: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; <a href=3D"mailto:cose@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State<br=
>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Sent from my iPhone<br>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; On A=
pr 14, 2015, at 10:10 PM, &quot;Jim Schaad&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf=
@augustcellars.com" target=3D"_blank">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt=
; wrote:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; -----Origi=
nal Message-----<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; From: Cose [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:cose=
-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">cose-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf O=
f Kepeng Li<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:59 PM<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt; To: Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailt=
o:cose@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Subje=
ct: Re: [Cose] Charter State<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Thanks Paul.=
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; There are two other changes we might wan=
t to incorporate:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; 1) Proposal from Goran:=
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/curr=
ent/msg00027.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/c=
ose/current/msg00027.html</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; OLD:<br>&gt=
; &gt;&gt; &quot;a standards-track specification covering the same cryptogr=
aphic<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; formats<br>&gt; &gt; from<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; JOSE, exp=
ressed in CBOR&quot;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; NEW:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt=
; &quot;a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic<br>=
&gt; &gt;&gt; formats<br>&gt; &gt; from<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; JOSE and optimizat=
ions for constrained device processing, expressed<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; in<br>&g=
t; &gt; CBOR<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; I am agnostic about including this c=
hange.=C2=A0 We now are much more<br>&gt; &gt; constrained device focused l=
ater so it might not be needed.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&=
gt; (2) Proposal from Kathleen:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=
=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00077.html" target=
=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00077.html=
</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; OLD:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; The Working Gr=
oup will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Co=
RE working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of<br>&gt; &gt=
;&gt; these constituencies.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; NEW:<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt; The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE,=
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; CoRE<br>&gt; &gt; and<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; DIME working group=
s to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; these cons=
tituencies.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; I am not sure that DIME is a reasonab=
le group to be coordinating with<br>&gt; &gt; since it is not clear that th=
is would be the solution space they are<br>&gt; &gt; going to operate in.=
=C2=A0 It is true that this need something along these<br>&gt; &gt; lines, =
but what they need first is to get someone who has good<br>&gt; &gt; knowle=
dge of what can be done in the group first.=C2=A0 Given that this is<br>&gt=
; &gt; major (telecom) vendors, using CMS might be a better fit for this<br=
>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; The other question if we expand this list here rath=
er than in the wiki<br>&gt; &gt; is the set of groups that Rene Struik thou=
gh that might be included<br>&gt; &gt; here such as &quot;6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL=
, etc&quot; which seem to be much closer to<br>&gt; &gt; the types of group=
s that might use this specification going forward.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt=
; At this point, I think I would go with the list we have and start<br>&gt;=
 &gt; adding more groups to the wiki.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I&#39;m fine with tha=
t approach.=C2=A0 My point in bringing up DIME was more that they<br>&gt; n=
eed help and this *could* help them, but work needs to be done to figure<br=
>&gt; out what they need at this point.=C2=A0 I brought it up just in case =
it&#39;s relevant to<br>&gt; COSE.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt; Kathleen=
<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Jim<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&g=
t;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Kind Regards<=
br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Kepeng<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">&gt; &gt;&gt; ? 15/4/15 2:32 am, &quot;Paul Hoffman&quot;=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paul.hoffman@vpnc.org" target=3D"_blank">paul.hoffma=
n@vpnc.org</a>&gt; ??:<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; On Apr 14, =
2015, at 11:20 AM, Jim Schaad &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; &g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would like to get Pull Request #2=
 rolled into the draft charter<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; and then I think we=
 are ready to send it to the ADs and IESG for review.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Since it is my pull request I have not done th=
e merge preferring<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that it be done by one of the o=
thers who have permissions.=C2=A0 If I<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; get a messa=
ge saying do the merge request I would be happy to pull<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt; the trigger on it.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; There se=
emed to be general agreement, so I accepted the pull request.<br>&gt; &gt;&=
gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Current version is at:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a=
 href=3D"https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.=
md" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/d=
raft-charter.md</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; --Paul Hoffma=
n<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________=
________________<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Cose mailing list<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt=
; <a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>&=
gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>&gt; &gt;&=
gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; _____________________________________=
__________<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Cose mailing list<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"m=
ailto:Cose@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt; <=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; _____=
__________________________________________<br>&gt; &gt; Cose mailing list<b=
r>&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Cose@ietf.or=
g</a><br>&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>&gt;<br>=
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>&gt; Cose mailing l=
ist<br>&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Cose@ietf.or=
g</a><br>&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><u></u><u></u></p=
></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br><br clear=3D"all"><u></u><u><=
/u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best regards,<u></u><u></u></=
p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Kathleen<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=
=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div></div>
</div>

--001a11347da6ca07eb05145304d3--


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To: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
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On Apr 22, 2015, at 9:54 AM, Kathleen Moriarty =
<kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> Great, are others ok with the changes?  If so, I'll get it rolling.

They look fine to me, as does rolling.

--Paul Hoffman=


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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 10:47:48 +0800
From: "Kepeng Li" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
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Fine with me.

Thanks.

Kind Regards
Kepeng


=D4=DA 23/4/15 1:01 am=A3=AC "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> =D0=B4=C8=EB:

>On Apr 22, 2015, at 9:54 AM, Kathleen Moriarty
><kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Great, are others ok with the changes?  If so, I'll get it rolling.
>
>They look fine to me, as does rolling.
>
>--Paul Hoffman
>_______________________________________________
>Cose mailing list
>Cose@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose



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References: <043201d076df$aa87b770$ff972650$@augustcellars.com> <50A4152F-E8F1-4890-AD03-065899ACC3BB@vpnc.org> <D153E55D.60EC%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> <04c701d07721$69175fb0$3b461f10$@augustcellars.com> <566CD668-1A69-4D37-A04E-98025906759D@gmail.com> <013d01d07c83$01465190$03d2f4b0$@augustcellars.com> <CAHbuEH7WVZQzE5bpMeDB5_YohJqgyA5HtTgZ2gq9-U58Ri6wYA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cose/G_bX8_c_Cv1ZhRjEzKgtDMU2bno>
Cc: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, "cose@ietf.org" <cose@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
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s/will be expand them/will expand them/

Looks fine otherwise, and I also agree with rolling this now.=20
Thanks for the clarifying!=20

Sent from my iPad while stuck in the German train driver strike

> On 22.04.2015, at 18:27, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.c=
om> wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> I am assuming the current charter text is at the link:
> https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
>=20
> I have some proposed changes that I think help with readability.  Let me k=
now if these are ok and I'll put in the charter for IESG review.  All of the=
 charter text is included, broken out by sections to show edits.  In some ca=
ses, there is a Note: following a change with assumptions I was making in ca=
se they were not correct assumptions.
>=20
> Old:Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise bin=
ary format for the serialization of data structured to an extended version o=
f the JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR was to make this data model m=
ore amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node networks (RFC 7228).
> New:
> Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise binary f=
ormat for the serialization of data structured to an extended version of the=
 JSON data model. One motivation for COSE was to reuse functionality from th=
e JOSE working group using the CBOR data representation as it is more amenab=
le to constrained nodes and constrained node networks (RFC 7228).
>=20
> Old:
> The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations for cr=
yptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and digital sig=
natures, using JSON representation. This working group will reuse the work d=
one by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of CBOR. This will rely on the J=
OSE registries, which, where this provides additional efficiency, will be ex=
panded with additional information.
> New:
> The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations for cr=
yptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and digital sig=
natures, using JSON representation. COSE will rely on the JOSE registries, a=
nd will be expand them with additional information when necessary.
>=20
> Note: you may have other reasons besides efficiency.
>=20
> Old:
> The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or to=
 JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compabitility which will e=
nable some simplification in the adaptation process.
> New:
> The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or to=
 JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compatibility will enable=
 some simplification in the adaptation process.
>=20
> Old:
> Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing from a J=
SON to a CBOR encoding are:
>=20
> Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.
>=20
> Minimizing message size, code size and computational complexity should be c=
onsidered (for the constrained environments where we expect to use this).
>=20
> Improving security
>=20
> Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but are req=
uired for the new use cases.
>=20
> New:
> Criteria that should be considered in the decision making process, changin=
g from JSON to CBOR encoding include:
>=20
> Maintain the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.
>=20
> Minimize message size, code size, and computational complexity to suit con=
strained environments, where this is expected to  be used.
>=20
> Improve security
>=20
> Provide new functionality for additional use cases that were not required f=
or JOSE.=20
>=20
> Old:
> Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are o=
ut of scope for the working group.
> New:
> Key management and binding of keys to identities are out of scope for the w=
orking group.
>=20
> Note: I am assuming you really want to out-of scope all key management and=
 not just issues?
>=20
> And I don't see any need to tweak the rest of the text:
> The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CORE=
 working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these constitu=
encies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use cases is ex=
panded.
>=20
> The WG will have two deliverables:
>=20
> a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic formats fr=
om JOSE, with optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed in C=
BOR;
> registration for algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate for c=
onstrained environments.
> The Working Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for its work,=
 but does not intend to publish this as an RFC.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I'd love it if you can keep to the milestones projected :-)
>=20
> Thanks.
> Kathleen
>=20
>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrot=
e:
>> The date change proposed by me has been merged into the draft.
>>=20
>> I believe that we can now consider the charter discussion to be complete u=
nless anyone else has a big issue they want to bring up.
>>=20
>> Kathleen:  Can we get this to move forward into the IESG?
>>=20
>> Jim
>>=20
>>=20
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kathleen Moriart=
y
>> > Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 7:17 PM
>> > To: Jim Schaad
>> > Cc: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; cose@ietf.org
>> > Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> > > On Apr 14, 2015, at 10:10 PM, "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > >> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kepeng Li
>> > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:59 PM
>> > >> To: Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad
>> > >> Cc: cose@ietf.org
>> > >> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
>> > >>
>> > >> Thanks Paul.
>> > >>
>> > >> There are two other changes we might want to incorporate:
>> > >>
>> > >> 1) Proposal from Goran:
>> > >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00027.html
>> > >>
>> > >> OLD:
>> > >> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
>> > >> formats
>> > > from
>> > >> JOSE, expressed in CBOR"
>> > >>
>> > >> NEW:
>> > >> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
>> > >> formats
>> > > from
>> > >> JOSE and optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed
>> > >> in
>> > > CBOR
>> > >
>> > > I am agnostic about including this change.  We now are much more
>> > > constrained device focused later so it might not be needed.
>> > >
>> > >>
>> > >> (2) Proposal from Kathleen:
>> > >>
>> > >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00077.html
>> > >>
>> > >> OLD:
>> > >> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE an=
d
>> > >> CoRE working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of
>> > >> these constituencies.
>> > >>
>> > >> NEW:
>> > >> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE,
>> > >> CoRE
>> > > and
>> > >> DIME working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of
>> > >> these constituencies.
>> > >
>> > > I am not sure that DIME is a reasonable group to be coordinating with=

>> > > since it is not clear that this would be the solution space they are
>> > > going to operate in.  It is true that this need something along these=

>> > > lines, but what they need first is to get someone who has good
>> > > knowledge of what can be done in the group first.  Given that this is=

>> > > major (telecom) vendors, using CMS might be a better fit for this
>> > >
>> > > The other question if we expand this list here rather than in the wik=
i
>> > > is the set of groups that Rene Struik though that might be included
>> > > here such as "6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc" which seem to be much closer to=

>> > > the types of groups that might use this specification going forward.
>> > >
>> > > At this point, I think I would go with the list we have and start
>> > > adding more groups to the wiki.
>> >
>> > I'm fine with that approach.  My point in bringing up DIME was more tha=
t they
>> > need help and this *could* help them, but work needs to be done to figu=
re
>> > out what they need at this point.  I brought it up just in case it's re=
levant to
>> > COSE.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Kathleen
>> > >
>> > > Jim
>> > >
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Thanks,
>> > >>
>> > >> Kind Regards
>> > >> Kepeng
>> > >>
>> > >> ? 15/4/15 2:32 am, "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> ??:
>> > >>
>> > >>> On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> I would like to get Pull Request #2 rolled into the draft charter
>> > >>>> and then I think we are ready to send it to the ADs and IESG for r=
eview.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Since it is my pull request I have not done the merge preferring
>> > >>>> that it be done by one of the others who have permissions.  If I
>> > >>>> get a message saying do the merge request I would be happy to pull=

>> > >>>> the trigger on it.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> There seemed to be general agreement, so I accepted the pull reques=
t.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Current version is at:
>> > >>> https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.m=
d
>> > >>>
>> > >>> --Paul Hoffman
>> > >>>
>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>> Cose mailing list
>> > >>> Cose@ietf.org
>> > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> Cose mailing list
>> > >> Cose@ietf.org
>> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Cose mailing list
>> > > Cose@ietf.org
>> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Cose mailing list
>> > Cose@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>s/will be expand them/will expand them=
/</div><div><br></div><div>Looks fine otherwise, and I also agree with rolli=
ng this now.&nbsp;</div><div>Thanks for the clarifying!&nbsp;<br><br>Sent fr=
om my iPad while stuck in the German train driver strike</div><div><br>On 22=
.04.2015, at 18:27, Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriart=
y.ietf@gmail.com">kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></d=
iv><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>I a=
m assuming the current charter text is at the link:</div><div><a href=3D"htt=
ps://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md">https://g=
ithub.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md</a><br></div><di=
v><br></div><div>I have some proposed changes that I think help with readabi=
lity.&nbsp; Let me know if these are ok and I'll put in the charter for IESG=
 review.&nbsp; All of the charter text is included, broken out by sections t=
o show edits.&nbsp; In some cases, there is a Note: following a change with a=
ssumptions I was making in case they were not correct assumptions.</div><div=
><br></div><div>Old:<span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Helvetic=
a Neue',Helvetica,'Segoe UI',Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-h=
eight:25.6000003814697px">Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 70=
49) is a concise binary format for the serialization of data structured to a=
n extended version of the JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR was to ma=
ke this data model more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node n=
etworks (RFC 7228).</span><br></div>New:<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,=
51);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,'Segoe UI',Arial,freesans,sans-se=
rif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px">Concise Binary Object Rep=
resentation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise binary format for the serializatio=
n of data structured to an extended version of the JSON data model. One moti=
vation for COSE was to reuse functionality from the JOSE working group using=
 the CBOR data representation as it is more amenable to constrained nodes an=
d constrained node networks (RFC 7228).</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51=
,51);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,'Segoe UI',Arial,freesans,sans-s=
erif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px"><br></span></div><div><s=
pan style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,'Seg=
oe UI',Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697=
px"><br></span></div>Old:<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family=
:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,'Segoe UI',Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:1=
6px;line-height:25.6000003814697px">The JOSE working group recently complete=
d producing representations for cryptographic keys, message authentication (=
MACs), encryption, and digital signatures, using JSON representation. This w=
orking group will reuse the work done by JOSE, adapting it to the capabiliti=
es of CBOR. This will rely on the JOSE registries, which, where this provide=
s additional efficiency, will be expanded with additional information.</span=
></div>New:<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Helvetica Ne=
ue',Helvetica,'Segoe UI',Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-heigh=
t:25.6000003814697px">The JOSE working group recently completed producing re=
presentations for cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encrypt=
ion, and digital signatures, using JSON representation. COSE will rely on th=
e JOSE registries, and will be expand them with additional information when n=
ecessary.</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Helvetica Ne=
ue',Helvetica,'Segoe UI',Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-heigh=
t:25.6000003814697px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,5=
1);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,'Segoe UI',Arial,freesans,sans-ser=
if;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px"><br></span></div>Note: you=
 may have other reasons besides efficiency.<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,=
51,51);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,'Segoe UI',Arial,freesans,sans=
-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px"><br></span></div>Old:<=
div><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetic=
a,'Segoe UI',Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003=
814697px">The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible fr=
om or to JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compabitility whi=
ch will enable some simplification in the adaptation process.</span></div>Ne=
w: <div><font color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Segoe UI,=
 Arial, freesans, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:16px;line-height:25.6=
000003814697px">The resulting formats will not be cryptographically converti=
ble from or to JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit&nbsp;compat=
ibility&nbsp;will enable some simplification in the adaptation process.</spa=
n></font><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Hel=
vetica,'Segoe UI',Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.60=
00003814697px"><br></span></div><div><font color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Helveti=
ca Neue, Helvetica, Segoe UI, Arial, freesans, sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px"><br></span></font></div>Old:<di=
v><p style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-fam=
ily:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,'Segoe UI',Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px">Criteria that should be considered on=
 making decisions in changing from a JSON to a CBOR encoding are:</p><ul cla=
ss=3D"" style=3D"padding:0px 0px 0px 2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;c=
olor:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,'Segoe UI',Arial,f=
reesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px"><li><p sty=
le=3D"margin-top:16px;margin-bottom:16px">Keeping the current JOSE paradigms=
 and formatting where feasible.</p></li><li><p style=3D"margin-top:16px;marg=
in-bottom:16px">Minimizing message size, code size and computational complex=
ity should be considered (for the constrained environments where we expect t=
o use this).</p></li><li><p style=3D"margin-top:16px;margin-bottom:16px">Imp=
roving security</p></li><li><p style=3D"margin-top:16px;margin-bottom:16px">=
Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but are requi=
red for the new use cases.</p></li></ul>New: </div><div><p style=3D"margin-t=
op:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',H=
elvetica,'Segoe UI',Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.=
6000003814697px">Criteria that should be considered in the decision making p=
rocess, changing from JSON to CBOR encoding include:</p><ul class=3D"" style=
=3D"padding:0px 0px 0px 2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(51,5=
1,51);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,'Segoe UI',Arial,freesans,sans-=
serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px"><li><p style=3D"margin-=
top:16px;margin-bottom:16px">Maintain the current JOSE paradigms and formatt=
ing where feasible.</p></li><li><p style=3D"margin-top:16px;margin-bottom:16=
px">Minimize message size, code size, and computational complexity to suit c=
onstrained environments, where this is expected to &nbsp;be used.</p></li><l=
i><p style=3D"margin-top:16px;margin-bottom:16px">Improve security</p></li><=
li><p style=3D"margin-top:16px;margin-bottom:16px">Provide new functionality=
 for additional use cases that were not required for JOSE.&nbsp;</p></li></u=
l>Old:</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Helvetica N=
eue',Helvetica,'Segoe UI',Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-heig=
ht:25.6000003814697px">Issues dealing with key management and binding of key=
s to identities are out of scope for the working group.</span></div>New:<div=
><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,'=
Segoe UI',Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814=
697px">Key management and binding of keys to identities are out of scope for=
 the working group.</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'He=
lvetica Neue',Helvetica,'Segoe UI',Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;=
line-height:25.6000003814697px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(51,51,51);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,'Segoe UI',Arial,freesan=
s,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px"><br></span></div=
>Note: I am assuming you really want to out-of scope all key management and n=
ot just issues?<div><font color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetic=
a, Segoe UI, Arial, freesans, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:16px;line=
-height:25.6000003814697px"><br></span></font></div>And I don't see any need=
 to tweak the rest of the text:<div><p style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom=
:16px;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,'Segoe UI',=
Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px">The=
 Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CORE work=
ing groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these constituencie=
s. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use cases is expande=
d.</p><p style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(51,51,51);font=
-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,'Segoe UI',Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font=
-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px">The WG will have two deliverables=
:</p><ul class=3D"" style=3D"padding:0px 0px 0px 2em;margin-top:0px;margin-b=
ottom:16px;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,'Segoe=
 UI',Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.6000003814697px=
"><li>a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic format=
s from JOSE, with optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed=
 in CBOR;</li><li>registration for algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are a=
ppropriate for constrained environments.</li></ul><p style=3D"margin-top:0px=
;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helveti=
ca,'Segoe UI',Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:25.600000=
3814697px">The Working Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for i=
ts work, but does not intend to publish this as an RFC.</p><p style=3D"margi=
n-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Helvetica Neue=
',Helvetica,'Segoe UI',Arial,freesans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:=
25.6000003814697px"><br></p>I'd love it if you can keep to the milestones pr=
ojected :-)<br><br>Thanks.<br>Kathleen</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Jim Schaad <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex">The date change proposed by me has been merged into the draft.<br>
<br>
I believe that we can now consider the charter discussion to be complete unl=
ess anyone else has a big issue they want to bring up.<br>
<br>
Kathleen:&nbsp; Can we get this to move forward into the IESG?<br>
<br>
Jim<br>
<div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Cose [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org">cose-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Kathleen Moriarty<br>
&gt; Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 7:17 PM<br>
&gt; To: Jim Schaad<br>
&gt; Cc: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; <a href=3D"mailto:cose@ietf.org">cose@ietf=
.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent from my iPhone<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; On Apr 14, 2015, at 10:10 PM, "Jim Schaad" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:i=
etf@augustcellars.com">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; From: Cose [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org">co=
se-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Kepeng Li<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:59 PM<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; To: Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:cose@ietf.org">cose@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Thanks Paul.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; There are two other changes we might want to incorporate:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; 1) Proposal from Goran:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/m=
sg00027.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/cu=
rrent/msg00027.html</a><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; OLD:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptograph=
ic<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; formats<br>
&gt; &gt; from<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; JOSE, expressed in CBOR"<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; NEW:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptograph=
ic<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; formats<br>
&gt; &gt; from<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; JOSE and optimizations for constrained device processing, expr=
essed<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; in<br>
&gt; &gt; CBOR<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I am agnostic about including this change.&nbsp; We now are much m=
ore<br>
&gt; &gt; constrained device focused later so it might not be needed.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; (2) Proposal from Kathleen:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/m=
sg00077.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/cu=
rrent/msg00077.html</a><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; OLD:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, D=
ICE and<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; CoRE working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs=
 of<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; these constituencies.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; NEW:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, D=
ICE,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; CoRE<br>
&gt; &gt; and<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; DIME working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs=
 of<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; these constituencies.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I am not sure that DIME is a reasonable group to be coordinating w=
ith<br>
&gt; &gt; since it is not clear that this would be the solution space they a=
re<br>
&gt; &gt; going to operate in.&nbsp; It is true that this need something alo=
ng these<br>
&gt; &gt; lines, but what they need first is to get someone who has good<br>=

&gt; &gt; knowledge of what can be done in the group first.&nbsp; Given that=
 this is<br>
&gt; &gt; major (telecom) vendors, using CMS might be a better fit for this<=
br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; The other question if we expand this list here rather than in the w=
iki<br>
&gt; &gt; is the set of groups that Rene Struik though that might be include=
d<br>
&gt; &gt; here such as "6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc" which seem to be much closer=
 to<br>
&gt; &gt; the types of groups that might use this specification going forwar=
d.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; At this point, I think I would go with the list we have and start<=
br>
&gt; &gt; adding more groups to the wiki.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I'm fine with that approach.&nbsp; My point in bringing up DIME was mor=
e that they<br>
&gt; need help and this *could* help them, but work needs to be done to figu=
re<br>
&gt; out what they need at this point.&nbsp; I brought it up just in case it=
's relevant to<br>
&gt; COSE.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; Kathleen<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Jim<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Kind Regards<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Kepeng<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
</div></div>&gt; &gt;&gt; ? 15/4/15 2:32 am, "Paul Hoffman" &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:paul.hoffman@vpnc.org">paul.hoffman@vpnc.org</a>&gt; ??:<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Jim Schaad &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:ietf@augustcellars.com">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would like to get Pull Request #2 rolled into the dr=
aft charter<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; and then I think we are ready to send it to the ADs an=
d IESG for review.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Since it is my pull request I have not done the merge p=
referring<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that it be done by one of the others who have permissi=
ons.&nbsp; If I<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; get a message saying do the merge request I would be h=
appy to pull<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the trigger on it.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; There seemed to be general agreement, so I accepted the pu=
ll request.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Current version is at:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/ma=
ster/draft-charter.md" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-cha=
rter/blob/master/draft-charter.md</a><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; --Paul Hoffman<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Cose mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Cose mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" target=3D=
"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; Cose mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" target=3D"_=
blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Cose mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" target=3D"_blank=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><=
div class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><=
div>Kathleen</div></div></div>
</div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>Cose mailing list</span><br><spa=
n><a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><a href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose">https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/cose</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>=

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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: "'Derek Atkins'" <derek@ihtfp.com>
References: <017601d07cad$0f29f9e0$2d7deda0$@augustcellars.com> <C246B2B0-34CC-4DEF-967C-46AE9FCF692A@vpnc.org> <sjm4mo887ka.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue:  Use arrays for some containers
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Derek Atkins
> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 9:14 AM
> To: Paul Hoffman
> Cc: cose
> Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue: Use arrays for some containers
> 
> Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> writes:
> 
> > On Apr 21, 2015, at 8:33 PM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Questions:
> >>
> >> 1.  Should we use arrays or maps as top level containers for COSE?
> >>
> >> 2.  If we use arrays, should we always use nil elements to indicate
> >> absent elements or use them only when ambiguity in parsing arises?
> >
> > 1) Maps
> >
> > 2) But, if we do arrays, use null elements so that a decoder always
> > gets the same number of elements.
> >
> > For #1, unless every structure everywhere is an array, the encoder and
> > decoder will need map interpretation. Given that, and given that maps
> > have become a more natural way for programmers to think of bundles of
> > information, choosing maps seems more likely to make COSE
> > understandable. The programming cost is very low, and if using
> > integers for the keys, the wire-size cost is also trivial.
> 
> I agree with this.
> 
> I believe it would be less code to use maps.

OK - I am open to novel ways to write code and would love to see something
more efficient that the algorithms that I would instinctively use.

For Arrays:

If (array.count < n) produce an error
If (array[0].type == type.bstr) then process this element
Else  if (array[0].type != type.nil) then produce an error.

For maps with loose enforcement:

Obj = map[key_name];
If (obj.type == type.bstr) then process this element
Else produce an error

For maps with strict enforcement:

Foreach (item in map)
   If (item.key.type != int) then ignore item
   Switch (item.key.value)
       Case "key_name":
          If (item.value.type != type.bstr) then produce an error
          Process element
          Break;

All of these look to me to be about the same size in terms of code.

Notice that I have included both a strict and a loose enforcement in my
examples.  These correspond to either saying that no elements other than the
defined set are present or any elements which I don't know are ignored.
JOSE is defined as using a loose enforcement.

I don't know which of the two enforcement models COSE should document if
maps are used.  If arrays are used then it is strict by default.  One
possibility is that we document both enforcement modes and allow
applications to decide.  My question on this has always been what are the
security implications of allowing for random elements to be included in the
structure which will never be processed by an app and are there any benefits
to having the random elements here rather than in the unprotected attribute
map.

Allowing for loose enforcement gives a possible upgrade path, one could put
in both a "signatures" and a "signatures2" item in the map and allow the
recipient to deal with the ones they can deal with.  Having both in the same
message would make me cringe in the world of IoT since that is possible just
making messages larger.  I am also not sure that I think this is a good way
to do versioning, a better way may be to update the structure type marker
instead and just have a new object if extensions to the base object are
really needed.

If this really does get rolled into the IoT world, then we are going to have
to live with the initial version being around for a long time based on the
lifespan of IoT hardware.   For the most part, I don't know how easy
firmware updates are going to be.

Jim


> 
> I don't see the savings of using arrays; it doesn't really seem to reduce
space
> significantly, and it might add complexity.
> 
> > --Paul Hoffman
> 
> -derek
> --
>        Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
>        derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
>        Computer and Internet Security Consultant
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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On 4/21/15 8:47 PM, Kepeng Li wrote:
> Fine with me.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Kind Regards Kepeng
> 
> 
> åœ¨ 23/4/15 1:01 amï¼Œ "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> å†™å…¥:
> 
>> On Apr 22, 2015, at 9:54 AM, Kathleen Moriarty 
>> <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Great, are others ok with the changes?  If so, I'll get it
>>> rolling.
>> 
>> They look fine to me, as does rolling.
>> 

+1

SHIPIT!


- -- 
- - m&m

Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com >
Cisco Systems, Inc.

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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
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References: <043201d076df$aa87b770$ff972650$@augustcellars.com> <50A4152F-E8F1-4890-AD03-065899ACC3BB@vpnc.org> <D153E55D.60EC%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> <04c701d07721$69175fb0$3b461f10$@augustcellars.com> <566CD668-1A69-4D37-A04E-98025906759D@gmail.com> <013d01d07c83$01465190$03d2f4b0$@augustcellars.com> <CAHbuEH7WVZQzE5bpMeDB5_YohJqgyA5HtTgZ2gq9-U58Ri6wYA@mail.gmail.com> <022601d07d1b$34298670$9c7c9350$@augustcellars.com> <CAHbuEH4kH-6_g_7ssbvs_nczpTx0BFKJzdkOC5625ki5YAmwAA@mail.gmail.com> <31D7BE2E-1D60-4D1B-8104-C8A3C21C114C@vpnc.org> <D15D2CAF.68D2%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> <5537F015.9020802@cisco.com>
To: =?utf-8?Q?=E2=8C=98_Matt_Miller?= <mamille2@cisco.com>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cose/2FKHPMcZ4phyuPTPGq8UGtlnVqQ>
Cc: Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>, "cose@ietf.org" <cose@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
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Great, thank you!

I'll move it forward to the next review stage.  If something else is spotted=
, it can be fixed.

Thanks,
Kathleen=20

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 22, 2015, at 3:01 PM, =E2=8C=98 Matt Miller <mamille2@cisco.com> wr=
ote:
>=20
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>=20
>> On 4/21/15 8:47 PM, Kepeng Li wrote:
>> Fine with me.
>>=20
>> Thanks.
>>=20
>> Kind Regards Kepeng
>>=20
>>=20
>> =E5=9C=A8 23/4/15 1:01 am=EF=BC=8C "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>=
 =E5=86=99=E5=85=A5:
>>=20
>>> On Apr 22, 2015, at 9:54 AM, Kathleen Moriarty=20
>>> <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Great, are others ok with the changes?  If so, I'll get it
>>>> rolling.
>>>=20
>>> They look fine to me, as does rolling.
>=20
> +1
>=20
> SHIPIT!
>=20
>=20
> - --=20
> - - m&m
>=20
> Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com >
> Cisco Systems, Inc.
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
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In order to get the CFRG pointed in the right direction, it is necessary =
to give it some input.   To that end I would suggest we start with doing =
a survey of three questions:

=20

1.        What type of algorithms are needed?  (key agreement, key =
transport, signature, hash, MAC, KDF, etc)

2.       What are the constraints we really care about?

3.       What algorithms are we currently using today for those =
purposes?

=20

=20

Jim

=20

=20

From: G=C3=B6ran Selander [mailto:goran.selander@ericsson.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 12:24 PM
To: Kathleen Moriarty
Cc: Jim Schaad; cose@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State

=20

Looks fine.=20

=20

About the constrained-appropriate algorithms: is the intention to =
consult CFRG? If so, maybe would be good to get that ball rolling too =
soon.=20

=20

Thanks,

G=C3=B6ran


On 22 apr 2015, at 18:54, Kathleen Moriarty =
<kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Great, are others ok with the changes?  If so, I'll get it rolling.

=20

On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> =
wrote:

Be my guest to make the changes.

=20

Jim

=20

=20

From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kathleen Moriarty
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 9:27 AM
To: Jim Schaad


Cc: cose@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State

=20

Hi,

=20

I am assuming the current charter text is at the link:

https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md

=20

I have some proposed changes that I think help with readability.  Let me =
know if these are ok and I'll put in the charter for IESG review.  All =
of the charter text is included, broken out by sections to show edits.  =
In some cases, there is a Note: following a change with assumptions I =
was making in case they were not correct assumptions.

=20

Old:Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise =
binary format for the serialization of data structured to an extended =
version of the JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR was to make this =
data model more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node =
networks (RFC 7228).

New:

Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise =
binary format for the serialization of data structured to an extended =
version of the JSON data model. One motivation for COSE was to reuse =
functionality from the JOSE working group using the CBOR data =
representation as it is more amenable to constrained nodes and =
constrained node networks (RFC 7228).

=20

Old:

The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations for =
cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and =
digital signatures, using JSON representation. This working group will =
reuse the work done by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of CBOR. =
This will rely on the JOSE registries, which, where this provides =
additional efficiency, will be expanded with additional information.

New:

The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations for =
cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and =
digital signatures, using JSON representation. COSE will rely on the =
JOSE registries, and will be expand them with additional information =
when necessary.

=20

Note: you may have other reasons besides efficiency.

=20

Old:

The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or =
to JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compabitility which =
will enable some simplification in the adaptation process.

New:=20

The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or =
to JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compatibility will =
enable some simplification in the adaptation process.

=20

Old:

Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing from =
a JSON to a CBOR encoding are:

=C2=B7      Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where =
feasible.

=C2=B7      Minimizing message size, code size and computational =
complexity should be considered (for the constrained environments where =
we expect to use this).

=C2=B7      Improving security

=C2=B7      Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not =
require, but are required for the new use cases.

New:=20

Criteria that should be considered in the decision making process, =
changing from JSON to CBOR encoding include:

=C2=B7      Maintain the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where =
feasible.

=C2=B7      Minimize message size, code size, and computational =
complexity to suit constrained environments, where this is expected to  =
be used.

=C2=B7      Improve security

=C2=B7      Provide new functionality for additional use cases that were =
not required for JOSE.=20

Old:

Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are =
out of scope for the working group.

New:

Key management and binding of keys to identities are out of scope for =
the working group.

=20

Note: I am assuming you really want to out-of scope all key management =
and not just issues?

=20

And I don't see any need to tweak the rest of the text:

The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and =
CORE working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these =
constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use =
cases is expanded.

The WG will have two deliverables:

*	a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic =
formats from JOSE, with optimizations for constrained device processing, =
expressed in CBOR;
*	registration for algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate =
for constrained environments.

The Working Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for its =
work, but does not intend to publish this as an RFC.

=20

I'd love it if you can keep to the milestones projected :-)

Thanks.
Kathleen

=20

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> =
wrote:

The date change proposed by me has been merged into the draft.

I believe that we can now consider the charter discussion to be complete =
unless anyone else has a big issue they want to bring up.

Kathleen:  Can we get this to move forward into the IESG?

Jim



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kathleen =
Moriarty
> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 7:17 PM
> To: Jim Schaad
> Cc: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; cose@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Apr 14, 2015, at 10:10 PM, "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kepeng Li
> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:59 PM
> >> To: Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad
> >> Cc: cose@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
> >>
> >> Thanks Paul.
> >>
> >> There are two other changes we might want to incorporate:
> >>
> >> 1) Proposal from Goran:
> >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00027.html
> >>
> >> OLD:
> >> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
> >> formats
> > from
> >> JOSE, expressed in CBOR"
> >>
> >> NEW:
> >> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
> >> formats
> > from
> >> JOSE and optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed
> >> in
> > CBOR
> >
> > I am agnostic about including this change.  We now are much more
> > constrained device focused later so it might not be needed.
> >
> >>
> >> (2) Proposal from Kathleen:
> >>
> >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00077.html
> >>
> >> OLD:
> >> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE =
and
> >> CoRE working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of
> >> these constituencies.
> >>
> >> NEW:
> >> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE,
> >> CoRE
> > and
> >> DIME working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of
> >> these constituencies.
> >
> > I am not sure that DIME is a reasonable group to be coordinating =
with
> > since it is not clear that this would be the solution space they are
> > going to operate in.  It is true that this need something along =
these
> > lines, but what they need first is to get someone who has good
> > knowledge of what can be done in the group first.  Given that this =
is
> > major (telecom) vendors, using CMS might be a better fit for this
> >
> > The other question if we expand this list here rather than in the =
wiki
> > is the set of groups that Rene Struik though that might be included
> > here such as "6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc" which seem to be much closer =
to
> > the types of groups that might use this specification going forward.
> >
> > At this point, I think I would go with the list we have and start
> > adding more groups to the wiki.
>
> I'm fine with that approach.  My point in bringing up DIME was more =
that they
> need help and this *could* help them, but work needs to be done to =
figure
> out what they need at this point.  I brought it up just in case it's =
relevant to
> COSE.
>
> Thanks,
> Kathleen
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Kind Regards
> >> Kepeng
> >>

> >> ? 15/4/15 2:32 am, "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> ??:

> >>
> >>> On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I would like to get Pull Request #2 rolled into the draft charter
> >>>> and then I think we are ready to send it to the ADs and IESG for =
review.
> >>>>
> >>>> Since it is my pull request I have not done the merge preferring
> >>>> that it be done by one of the others who have permissions.  If I
> >>>> get a message saying do the merge request I would be happy to =
pull
> >>>> the trigger on it.
> >>>
> >>> There seemed to be general agreement, so I accepted the pull =
request.
> >>>
> >>> Current version is at:
> >>> =
https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
> >>>
> >>> --Paul Hoffman
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Cose mailing list
> >>> Cose@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Cose mailing list
> >> Cose@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cose mailing list
> > Cose@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose





=20

--=20

=20

Best regards,

Kathleen





=20

--=20

=20

Best regards,

Kathleen

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Cose mailing list
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<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>In order to get the CFRG pointed in the right direction, it is =
necessary to give it some input. =C2=A0=C2=A0To that end I would suggest =
we start with doing a survey of three questions:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><![if =
!supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times =
New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>=C2=A0What type of algorithms are needed?=C2=A0 (key agreement, key =
transport, signature, hash, MAC, KDF, etc)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times =
New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>What are the constraints we really care =
about?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><![if =
!supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times =
New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>What algorithms are we currently using today for those =
purposes?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Jim<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
G=C3=B6ran Selander [mailto:goran.selander@ericsson.com] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 22, 2015 12:24 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
Kathleen Moriarty<br><b>Cc:</b> Jim Schaad; =
cose@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Cose] Charter =
State<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Looks =
fine.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>About the constrained-appropriate algorithms: is the =
intention to consult CFRG? If so, maybe would be good to get that ball =
rolling too soon.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>G=C3=B6ran<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On 22 apr 2015, at =
18:54, Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com">kathleen.moriarty.ietf@g=
mail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Great, are others ok with the changes?&nbsp; If so, =
I'll get it rolling.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Wed, =
Apr 22, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Jim Schaad &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com" =
target=3D"_blank">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Be my guest to make the changes.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Jim</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Cose [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">cose-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Kathleen Moriarty<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 22, 2015 9:27 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> Jim Schaad</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:cose@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">cose@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Cose] =
Charter State<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Hi,<o:p></o:=
p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I am =
assuming the current charter text is at the =
link:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter=
.md" =
target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/dra=
ft-charter.md</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I have some =
proposed changes that I think help with readability.&nbsp; Let me know =
if these are ok and I'll put in the charter for IESG review.&nbsp; All =
of the charter text is included, broken out by sections to show =
edits.&nbsp; In some cases, there is a Note: following a change with =
assumptions I was making in case they were not correct =
assumptions.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Old:<span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Concise =
Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise binary format =
for the serialization of data structured to an extended version of the =
JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR was to make this data model =
more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node networks (RFC =
7228).</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>New:<o:p></o=
:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Concise =
Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise binary format =
for the serialization of data structured to an extended version of the =
JSON data model. One motivation for COSE was to reuse functionality from =
the JOSE working group using the CBOR data representation as it is more =
amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node networks (RFC =
7228).</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Old:<o:p></o=
:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The JOSE =
working group recently completed producing representations for =
cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and =
digital signatures, using JSON representation. This working group will =
reuse the work done by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of CBOR. =
This will rely on the JOSE registries, which, where this provides =
additional efficiency, will be expanded with additional =
information.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>New:<o:p></o=
:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The JOSE =
working group recently completed producing representations for =
cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and =
digital signatures, using JSON representation. COSE will rely on the =
JOSE registries, and will be expand them with additional information =
when necessary.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Note: you =
may have other reasons besides efficiency.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Old:<o:p></o=
:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The =
resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or to =
JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compabitility which =
will enable some simplification in the adaptation =
process.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>New: =
<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The =
resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or to =
JOSE formats. This lack of a need for =
bit-for-bit&nbsp;compatibility&nbsp;will enable some simplification in =
the adaptation process.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Old:<o:p></o=
:p></p><div><p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Criteria =
that should be considered on making decisions in changing from a JSON to =
a CBOR encoding are:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;m=
argin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'>=C2=B7</span>=
<span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#333333'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Keeping the =
current JOSE paradigms and formatting where =
feasible.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;m=
argin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'>=C2=B7</span>=
<span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#333333'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Minimizing =
message size, code size and computational complexity should be =
considered (for the constrained environments where we expect to use =
this).</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;m=
argin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'>=C2=B7</span>=
<span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#333333'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Improving =
security</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;m=
argin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'>=C2=B7</span>=
<span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#333333'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Providing =
new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but are required =
for the new use cases.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>New: =
<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Criteria =
that should be considered in the decision making process, changing from =
JSON to CBOR encoding include:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;m=
argin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'>=C2=B7</span>=
<span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#333333'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Maintain =
the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where =
feasible.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;m=
argin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'>=C2=B7</span>=
<span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#333333'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Minimize =
message size, code size, and computational complexity to suit =
constrained environments, where this is expected to &nbsp;be =
used.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;m=
argin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'>=C2=B7</span>=
<span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#333333'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Improve =
security</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;m=
argin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#333333'>=C2=B7</span>=
<span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#333333'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Provide new =
functionality for additional use cases that were not required for =
JOSE.&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Old:<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Issues =
dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are out of =
scope for the working group.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>New:<o:p></o=
:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Key =
management and binding of keys to identities are out of scope for the =
working group.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Note: I am =
assuming you really want to out-of scope all key management and not just =
issues?<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>And I don't =
see any need to tweak the rest of the text:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The Working =
group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CORE working =
groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these =
constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use =
cases is expanded.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The WG will =
have two deliverables:</span><o:p></o:p></p><ul type=3Ddisc><li =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#333333;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto=
;line-height:19.2pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>a standards-track =
specification covering the same cryptographic formats from JOSE, with =
optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed in =
CBOR;</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#333333;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto=
;line-height:19.2pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>registration for =
algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate for constrained =
environments.</span><o:p></o:p></li></ul><p =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The Working =
Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for its work, but does =
not intend to publish this as an RFC.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I'd love it =
if you can keep to the milestones projected =
:-)<br><br>Thanks.<br>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Tue, Apr =
21, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Jim Schaad &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com" =
target=3D"_blank">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The date =
change proposed by me has been merged into the draft.<br><br>I believe =
that we can now consider the charter discussion to be complete unless =
anyone else has a big issue they want to bring =
up.<br><br>Kathleen:&nbsp; Can we get this to move forward into the =
IESG?<br><br>Jim<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br><br>&gt;=
 -----Original Message-----<br>&gt; From: Cose [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">cose-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Kathleen =
Moriarty<br>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 7:17 PM<br>&gt; To: Jim =
Schaad<br>&gt; Cc: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cose@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter =
State<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Sent from my =
iPhone<br>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; On Apr 14, 2015, at 10:10 PM, &quot;Jim =
Schaad&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com" =
target=3D"_blank">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; From: Cose [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">cose-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Kepeng =
Li<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:59 PM<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt; To: Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Cc: <a =
href=3D"mailto:cose@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [Cose] =
Charter State<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Thanks Paul.<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; There are two other changes we might want to =
incorporate:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; 1) Proposal from =
Goran:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00027.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00=
027.html</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; OLD:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
&quot;a standards-track specification covering the same =
cryptographic<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; formats<br>&gt; &gt; from<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt; JOSE, expressed in CBOR&quot;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
NEW:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;a standards-track specification covering the =
same cryptographic<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; formats<br>&gt; &gt; from<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt; JOSE and optimizations for constrained device processing, =
expressed<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; in<br>&gt; &gt; CBOR<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt; I am agnostic about including this change.&nbsp; We now are much =
more<br>&gt; &gt; constrained device focused later so it might not be =
needed.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; (2) Proposal from =
Kathleen:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00077.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00=
077.html</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; OLD:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; The =
Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE =
and<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; CoRE working groups to ensure that we are =
fulfilling the needs of<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; these constituencies.<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; NEW:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; The Working Group will =
coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
CoRE<br>&gt; &gt; and<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; DIME working groups to ensure =
that we are fulfilling the needs of<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; these =
constituencies.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; I am not sure that DIME is a =
reasonable group to be coordinating with<br>&gt; &gt; since it is not =
clear that this would be the solution space they are<br>&gt; &gt; going =
to operate in.&nbsp; It is true that this need something along =
these<br>&gt; &gt; lines, but what they need first is to get someone who =
has good<br>&gt; &gt; knowledge of what can be done in the group =
first.&nbsp; Given that this is<br>&gt; &gt; major (telecom) vendors, =
using CMS might be a better fit for this<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; The =
other question if we expand this list here rather than in the =
wiki<br>&gt; &gt; is the set of groups that Rene Struik though that =
might be included<br>&gt; &gt; here such as &quot;6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, =
etc&quot; which seem to be much closer to<br>&gt; &gt; the types of =
groups that might use this specification going forward.<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; At this point, I think I would go with the list we =
have and start<br>&gt; &gt; adding more groups to the =
wiki.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I'm fine with that approach.&nbsp; My point in =
bringing up DIME was more that they<br>&gt; need help and this *could* =
help them, but work needs to be done to figure<br>&gt; out what they =
need at this point.&nbsp; I brought it up just in case it's relevant =
to<br>&gt; COSE.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt; Kathleen<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Jim<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Kind =
Regards<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Kepeng<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&gt; =
&gt;&gt; ? 15/4/15 2:32 am, &quot;Paul Hoffman&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paul.hoffman@vpnc.org" =
target=3D"_blank">paul.hoffman@vpnc.org</a>&gt; =
??:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Jim Schaad =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com" =
target=3D"_blank">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would like to get Pull =
Request #2 rolled into the draft charter<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; and =
then I think we are ready to send it to the ADs and IESG for =
review.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Since it is my =
pull request I have not done the merge preferring<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that it be done by one of the others who have =
permissions.&nbsp; If I<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; get a message saying do =
the merge request I would be happy to pull<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the =
trigger on it.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; There seemed to =
be general agreement, so I accepted the pull request.<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Current version is at:<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter=
.md" =
target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/dra=
ft-charter.md</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; --Paul =
Hoffman<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; =
Cose mailing list<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Cose =
mailing list<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; =
_______________________________________________<br>&gt; &gt; Cose =
mailing list<br>&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; &gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>&gt;<=
br>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>&gt; Cose =
mailing list<br>&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br><br =
clear=3Dall><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>-- =
<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Best =
regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Kathleen<o:p=
></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><br><br clear=3Dall><o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-- =
<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Best =
regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></=
blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>Cose=
 mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/cose</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></div></=
body></html>
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Cc: "cose@ietf.org" <cose@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
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Please be aware tha CFRG are currently very busy with selecting
and documenting additional curves and associated signature
mechanisms. If COSE needs CFRG help, you should really try to
minimise what's needed.

You could minimise that to zero by only using well-worn crypto.

But if COSE needs to go beyond that (my I hope is it does not),
then you ought be ready for delay - like any other group CFRG
has limited bandwidth bounded by volunteer cycles.

S.

On 23/04/15 07:47, GÃ¶ran Selander wrote:
> 
> 
> In order to get the CFRG pointed in the right direction, it is necessary to give it some input.   To that end I would suggest we start with doing a survey of three questions:
> 
> 
> 1.        What type of algorithms are needed?  (key agreement, key transport, signature, hash, MAC, KDF, etc)
> 
> For the use cases I have in mind: key transport, KDF, encryption/AEAD, hash and signature. But the main concern is around signatures.
> 
> 1. ECDSA size of signature at 112-128 bits security is of the order of 60 bytes which is a lot compared to 8 bytes truncated MAC. It would be good to have a recommendation of a signature algorithm with message recovery, such as ECPVS (which has some IPR, some of which is expiring in a few years) or other.
> 
> 2. A combined symmetric key encryption + signature is needed for point-multipoint settings.
> 
> 
> 
> 2.       What are the constraints we really care about?
> 
> The charter says "Minimizing message size, code size and computational complexityâ€�.  In order of importance for signatures Iâ€™d say message size, computational complexity, code size.
> 
> 
> 
> 3.       What algorithms are we currently using today for those purposes?
> 
> 
> The default algorithms are those specified by CoAP (secp256r1 for ECDSA)
> 
> 
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> From: GÃ¶ran Selander [mailto:goran.selander@ericsson.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 12:24 PM
> To: Kathleen Moriarty
> Cc: Jim Schaad; cose@ietf.org<mailto:cose@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
> 
> Looks fine.
> 
> About the constrained-appropriate algorithms: is the intention to consult CFRG? If so, maybe would be good to get that ball rolling too soon.
> 
> Thanks,
> GÃ¶ran
> 
> On 22 apr 2015, at 18:54, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Great, are others ok with the changes?  If so, I'll get it rolling.
> 
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com<mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com>> wrote:
> Be my guest to make the changes.
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Kathleen Moriarty
> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 9:27 AM
> To: Jim Schaad
> 
> Cc: cose@ietf.org<mailto:cose@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I am assuming the current charter text is at the link:
> https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
> 
> I have some proposed changes that I think help with readability.  Let me know if these are ok and I'll put in the charter for IESG review.  All of the charter text is included, broken out by sections to show edits.  In some cases, there is a Note: following a change with assumptions I was making in case they were not correct assumptions.
> 
> Old:Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise binary format for the serialization of data structured to an extended version of the JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR was to make this data model more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node networks (RFC 7228).
> New:
> Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise binary format for the serialization of data structured to an extended version of the JSON data model. One motivation for COSE was to reuse functionality from the JOSE working group using the CBOR data representation as it is more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node networks (RFC 7228).
> 
> Old:
> The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations for cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and digital signatures, using JSON representation. This working group will reuse the work done by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of CBOR. This will rely on the JOSE registries, which, where this provides additional efficiency, will be expanded with additional information.
> New:
> The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations for cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and digital signatures, using JSON representation. COSE will rely on the JOSE registries, and will be expand them with additional information when necessary.
> 
> Note: you may have other reasons besides efficiency.
> 
> Old:
> The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or to JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compabitility which will enable some simplification in the adaptation process.
> New:
> The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or to JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compatibility will enable some simplification in the adaptation process.
> 
> Old:
> 
> Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing from a JSON to a CBOR encoding are:
> 
> Â·      Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.
> 
> Â·      Minimizing message size, code size and computational complexity should be considered (for the constrained environments where we expect to use this).
> 
> Â·      Improving security
> 
> Â·      Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but are required for the new use cases.
> New:
> 
> Criteria that should be considered in the decision making process, changing from JSON to CBOR encoding include:
> 
> Â·      Maintain the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.
> 
> Â·      Minimize message size, code size, and computational complexity to suit constrained environments, where this is expected to  be used.
> 
> Â·      Improve security
> 
> Â·      Provide new functionality for additional use cases that were not required for JOSE.
> Old:
> Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are out of scope for the working group.
> New:
> Key management and binding of keys to identities are out of scope for the working group.
> 
> Note: I am assuming you really want to out-of scope all key management and not just issues?
> 
> And I don't see any need to tweak the rest of the text:
> 
> The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CORE working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use cases is expanded.
> 
> The WG will have two deliverables:
> 
>   *   a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic formats from JOSE, with optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed in CBOR;
>   *   registration for algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate for constrained environments.
> 
> The Working Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for its work, but does not intend to publish this as an RFC.
> 
> 
> I'd love it if you can keep to the milestones projected :-)
> 
> Thanks.
> Kathleen
> 
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com<mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com>> wrote:
> The date change proposed by me has been merged into the draft.
> 
> I believe that we can now consider the charter discussion to be complete unless anyone else has a big issue they want to bring up.
> 
> Kathleen:  Can we get this to move forward into the IESG?
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Kathleen Moriarty
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 7:17 PM
>> To: Jim Schaad
>> Cc: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; cose@ietf.org<mailto:cose@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Apr 14, 2015, at 10:10 PM, "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com<mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com>>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Kepeng Li
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:59 PM
>>>> To: Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad
>>>> Cc: cose@ietf.org<mailto:cose@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Paul.
>>>>
>>>> There are two other changes we might want to incorporate:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Proposal from Goran:
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00027.html
>>>>
>>>> OLD:
>>>> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
>>>> formats
>>> from
>>>> JOSE, expressed in CBOR"
>>>>
>>>> NEW:
>>>> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
>>>> formats
>>> from
>>>> JOSE and optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed
>>>> in
>>> CBOR
>>>
>>> I am agnostic about including this change.  We now are much more
>>> constrained device focused later so it might not be needed.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> (2) Proposal from Kathleen:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00077.html
>>>>
>>>> OLD:
>>>> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and
>>>> CoRE working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of
>>>> these constituencies.
>>>>
>>>> NEW:
>>>> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE,
>>>> CoRE
>>> and
>>>> DIME working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of
>>>> these constituencies.
>>>
>>> I am not sure that DIME is a reasonable group to be coordinating with
>>> since it is not clear that this would be the solution space they are
>>> going to operate in.  It is true that this need something along these
>>> lines, but what they need first is to get someone who has good
>>> knowledge of what can be done in the group first.  Given that this is
>>> major (telecom) vendors, using CMS might be a better fit for this
>>>
>>> The other question if we expand this list here rather than in the wiki
>>> is the set of groups that Rene Struik though that might be included
>>> here such as "6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc" which seem to be much closer to
>>> the types of groups that might use this specification going forward.
>>>
>>> At this point, I think I would go with the list we have and start
>>> adding more groups to the wiki.
>>
>> I'm fine with that approach.  My point in bringing up DIME was more that they
>> need help and this *could* help them, but work needs to be done to figure
>> out what they need at this point.  I brought it up just in case it's relevant to
>> COSE.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kathleen
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Kind Regards
>>>> Kepeng
>>>>
>>>> ? 15/4/15 2:32 am, "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org<mailto:paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>> ??:
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com<mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com>>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would like to get Pull Request #2 rolled into the draft charter
>>>>>> and then I think we are ready to send it to the ADs and IESG for review.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since it is my pull request I have not done the merge preferring
>>>>>> that it be done by one of the others who have permissions.  If I
>>>>>> get a message saying do the merge request I would be happy to pull
>>>>>> the trigger on it.
>>>>>
>>>>> There seemed to be general agreement, so I accepted the pull request.
>>>>>
>>>>> Current version is at:
>>>>> https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
>>>>>
>>>>> --Paul Hoffman
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Cose mailing list
>>>>> Cose@ietf.org<mailto:Cose@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Cose mailing list
>>>> Cose@ietf.org<mailto:Cose@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Cose mailing list
>>> Cose@ietf.org<mailto:Cose@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Cose mailing list
>> Cose@ietf.org<mailto:Cose@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org<mailto:Cose@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> 


From nobody Thu Apr 23 07:57:56 2015
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From: Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com>
To: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
References: <017601d07cad$0f29f9e0$2d7deda0$@augustcellars.com> <C246B2B0-34CC-4DEF-967C-46AE9FCF692A@vpnc.org> <sjm4mo887ka.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <024801d07d2d$6137c6b0$23a75410$@augustcellars.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 10:57:47 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue:  Use arrays for some containers
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"Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com> writes:

>> I believe it would be less code to use maps.
>
> OK - I am open to novel ways to write code and would love to see something
> more efficient that the algorithms that I would instinctively use.

Okay, let me recind my statement here -- the formats do already use
Arrays in other contexts, so we wouldn't save code by being able to
elide all array-parsing code.

-derek
-- 
       Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
       derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
       Computer and Internet Security Consultant


From nobody Fri Apr 24 05:23:46 2015
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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: =?UTF-8?Q?'G=C3=B6ran_Selander'?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
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------=_NextPart_000_03F7_01D07E4E.A3E3F980
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="UTF-8"
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=20

=20

From: G=C3=B6ran Selander [mailto:goran.selander@ericsson.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 11:48 PM
To: Jim Schaad
Cc: cose@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State

=20

=20

=20

In order to get the CFRG pointed in the right direction, it is necessary =
to give it some input.   To that end I would suggest we start with doing =
a survey of three questions:

=20

1.       What type of algorithms are needed?  (key agreement, key =
transport, signature, hash, MAC, KDF, etc)

=20

For the use cases I have in mind: key transport, KDF, encryption/AEAD, =
hash and signature. But the main concern is around signatures.

=20

1. ECDSA size of signature at 112-128 bits security is of the order of =
60 bytes which is a lot compared to 8 bytes truncated MAC. It would be =
good to have a recommendation of a signature algorithm with message =
recovery, such as ECPVS (which has some IPR, some of which is expiring =
in a few years) or other.

=20

So basically ECDSA, and it=E2=80=99s variants, have a size of 2*|r|, =
which comes to roughly 64 bytes for P-256.  I looked at ECPVS, and for =
the same level of security as the 8 byte truncated MAC I believe you are =
looking at |r| + 8 or 40 bytes for P-256.  It is a message size win, but =
I am not sure it is as big of win as you originally thought it would be. =
=20

=20

2. A combined symmetric key encryption + signature is needed for =
point-multipoint settings.=20

=20

Please explain what you mean by point-multipoint settings.  I am not =
familiar with that term .  (I probably know it as something else.)

=20

2.      What are the constraints we really care about?

=20

The charter says "Minimizing message size, code size and computational =
complexity=E2=80=9D.  In order of importance for signatures I=E2=80=99d =
say message size, computational complexity, code size.

=20

I was thinking in broader terms.  What you have listed above is more =
along the lines of decision criteria but not constraints.   A constraint =
is =E2=80=93 We need a minimum of 64-bits of authentication tag for AEAD =
algorithms.  We need a minimum of X-bits for signature algorithms.  We =
need to have deterministic signature algorithms because our PRGNs are =
not good enough.  Minimal systems will only support hash and encrypt =
mode block ciphers.

=20

3.      What algorithms are we currently using today for those purposes?

=20

=20

The default algorithms are those specified by CoAP (secp256r1 for ECDSA)

=20

Where?  In a document that I can easily read?

=20

=20

Jim

=20

=20

From: G=C3=B6ran Selander [mailto:goran.selander@ericsson.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 12:24 PM
To: Kathleen Moriarty
Cc: Jim Schaad; cose@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State

=20

Looks fine.=20

=20

About the constrained-appropriate algorithms: is the intention to =
consult CFRG? If so, maybe would be good to get that ball rolling too =
soon.=20

=20

Thanks,

G=C3=B6ran


On 22 apr 2015, at 18:54, Kathleen Moriarty =
<kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Great, are others ok with the changes?  If so, I'll get it rolling.

=20

On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> =
wrote:

Be my guest to make the changes.

=20

Jim

=20

=20

From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kathleen Moriarty
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 9:27 AM
To: Jim Schaad


Cc: cose@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State

=20

Hi,

=20

I am assuming the current charter text is at the link:

https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md

=20

I have some proposed changes that I think help with readability.  Let me =
know if these are ok and I'll put in the charter for IESG review.  All =
of the charter text is included, broken out by sections to show edits.  =
In some cases, there is a Note: following a change with assumptions I =
was making in case they were not correct assumptions.

=20

Old:Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise =
binary format for the serialization of data structured to an extended =
version of the JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR was to make this =
data model more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node =
networks (RFC 7228).

New:

Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise =
binary format for the serialization of data structured to an extended =
version of the JSON data model. One motivation for COSE was to reuse =
functionality from the JOSE working group using the CBOR data =
representation as it is more amenable to constrained nodes and =
constrained node networks (RFC 7228).

=20

Old:

The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations for =
cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and =
digital signatures, using JSON representation. This working group will =
reuse the work done by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of CBOR. =
This will rely on the JOSE registries, which, where this provides =
additional efficiency, will be expanded with additional information.

New:

The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations for =
cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and =
digital signatures, using JSON representation. COSE will rely on the =
JOSE registries, and will be expand them with additional information =
when necessary.

=20

Note: you may have other reasons besides efficiency.

=20

Old:

The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or =
to JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compabitility which =
will enable some simplification in the adaptation process.

New:=20

The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or =
to JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compatibility will =
enable some simplification in the adaptation process.

=20

Old:

Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing from =
a JSON to a CBOR encoding are:

=C2=B7      Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where =
feasible.

=C2=B7      Minimizing message size, code size and computational =
complexity should be considered (for the constrained environments where =
we expect to use this).

=C2=B7      Improving security

=C2=B7      Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not =
require, but are required for the new use cases.

New:=20

Criteria that should be considered in the decision making process, =
changing from JSON to CBOR encoding include:

=C2=B7      Maintain the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where =
feasible.

=C2=B7      Minimize message size, code size, and computational =
complexity to suit constrained environments, where this is expected to  =
be used.

=C2=B7      Improve security

=C2=B7      Provide new functionality for additional use cases that were =
not required for JOSE.=20

Old:

Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are =
out of scope for the working group.

New:

Key management and binding of keys to identities are out of scope for =
the working group.

=20

Note: I am assuming you really want to out-of scope all key management =
and not just issues?

=20

And I don't see any need to tweak the rest of the text:

The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and =
CORE working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these =
constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use =
cases is expanded.

The WG will have two deliverables:

*	a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic =
formats from JOSE, with optimizations for constrained device processing, =
expressed in CBOR;
*	registration for algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate =
for constrained environments.

The Working Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for its =
work, but does not intend to publish this as an RFC.

=20

I'd love it if you can keep to the milestones projected :-)

Thanks.
Kathleen

=20

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> =
wrote:

The date change proposed by me has been merged into the draft.

I believe that we can now consider the charter discussion to be complete =
unless anyone else has a big issue they want to bring up.

Kathleen:  Can we get this to move forward into the IESG?

Jim



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kathleen =
Moriarty
> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 7:17 PM
> To: Jim Schaad
> Cc: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; cose@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Apr 14, 2015, at 10:10 PM, "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kepeng Li
> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:59 PM
> >> To: Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad
> >> Cc: cose@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
> >>
> >> Thanks Paul.
> >>
> >> There are two other changes we might want to incorporate:
> >>
> >> 1) Proposal from Goran:
> >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00027.html
> >>
> >> OLD:
> >> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
> >> formats
> > from
> >> JOSE, expressed in CBOR"
> >>
> >> NEW:
> >> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
> >> formats
> > from
> >> JOSE and optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed
> >> in
> > CBOR
> >
> > I am agnostic about including this change.  We now are much more
> > constrained device focused later so it might not be needed.
> >
> >>
> >> (2) Proposal from Kathleen:
> >>
> >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00077.html
> >>
> >> OLD:
> >> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE =
and
> >> CoRE working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of
> >> these constituencies.
> >>
> >> NEW:
> >> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE,
> >> CoRE
> > and
> >> DIME working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of
> >> these constituencies.
> >
> > I am not sure that DIME is a reasonable group to be coordinating =
with
> > since it is not clear that this would be the solution space they are
> > going to operate in.  It is true that this need something along =
these
> > lines, but what they need first is to get someone who has good
> > knowledge of what can be done in the group first.  Given that this =
is
> > major (telecom) vendors, using CMS might be a better fit for this
> >
> > The other question if we expand this list here rather than in the =
wiki
> > is the set of groups that Rene Struik though that might be included
> > here such as "6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc" which seem to be much closer =
to
> > the types of groups that might use this specification going forward.
> >
> > At this point, I think I would go with the list we have and start
> > adding more groups to the wiki.
>
> I'm fine with that approach.  My point in bringing up DIME was more =
that they
> need help and this *could* help them, but work needs to be done to =
figure
> out what they need at this point.  I brought it up just in case it's =
relevant to
> COSE.
>
> Thanks,
> Kathleen
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Kind Regards
> >> Kepeng
> >>

> >> ? 15/4/15 2:32 am, "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> ??:

> >>
> >>> On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I would like to get Pull Request #2 rolled into the draft charter
> >>>> and then I think we are ready to send it to the ADs and IESG for =
review.
> >>>>
> >>>> Since it is my pull request I have not done the merge preferring
> >>>> that it be done by one of the others who have permissions.  If I
> >>>> get a message saying do the merge request I would be happy to =
pull
> >>>> the trigger on it.
> >>>
> >>> There seemed to be general agreement, so I accepted the pull =
request.
> >>>
> >>> Current version is at:
> >>> =
https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
> >>>
> >>> --Paul Hoffman
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Cose mailing list
> >>> Cose@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Cose mailing list
> >> Cose@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cose mailing list
> > Cose@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose





=20

--=20

=20

Best regards,

Kathleen





=20

--=20

=20

Best regards,

Kathleen

_______________________________________________
Cose mailing list
Cose@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
G=C3=B6ran Selander [mailto:goran.selander@ericsson.com] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 22, 2015 11:48 PM<br><b>To:</b> Jim =
Schaad<br><b>Cc:</b> cose@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Cose] Charter =
State<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>In order to get the CFRG pointed in the right direction, it is =
necessary to give it some input. &nbsp;&nbsp;To that end I would suggest =
we start with doing a survey of three questions:</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'color:black'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;What type of algorithms are needed?&nbsp; (key agreement, key =
transport, signature, hash, MAC, KDF, etc)</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>For the use cases I have in mind: key transport, KDF, encryption/AEAD, =
hash and signature. But the main concern is around =
signatures.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>1. ECDSA size of signature at 112-128 bits security is of the order of =
60 bytes which is a lot compared to 8 bytes truncated MAC. It would be =
good to have a recommendation of a signature algorithm with message =
recovery, such as ECPVS (which has some IPR, some of which is expiring =
in a few years) or other.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:red'>S=
o basically ECDSA, and it=E2=80=99s variants, have a size of 2*|r|, =
which comes to roughly 64 bytes for P-256.=C2=A0 I looked at ECPVS, and =
for the same level of security as the 8 byte truncated MAC I believe you =
are looking at |r| + 8 or 40 bytes for P-256.=C2=A0 It is a message size =
win, but I am not sure it is as big of win as you originally thought it =
would be.=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>2. A combined symmetric key encryption + signature is needed for =
point-multipoint settings.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:red'>P=
lease explain what you mean by point-multipoint settings.=C2=A0 I am not =
familiar with that term .=C2=A0 (I probably know it as something =
else.)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'color:black'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>What are the constraints we really care about?</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>The charter says &quot;Minimizing message size, code size and =
computational complexity=E2=80=9D. &nbsp;In order of importance for =
signatures I=E2=80=99d say message size, computational complexity, code =
size.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:red'>I=
 was thinking in broader terms.=C2=A0 What you have listed above is more =
along the lines of decision criteria but not constraints.=C2=A0=C2=A0 A =
constraint is =E2=80=93 We need a minimum of 64-bits of authentication =
tag for AEAD algorithms.=C2=A0 We need a minimum of X-bits for signature =
algorithms.=C2=A0 We need to have deterministic signature algorithms =
because our PRGNs are not good enough.=C2=A0 Minimal systems will only =
support hash and encrypt mode block =
ciphers.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'color:black'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>What algorithms are we currently using today for those =
purposes?</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>The default algorithms are those specified by CoAP (secp256r1 for =
ECDSA)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:red'>W=
here?=C2=A0 In a document that I can easily =
read?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Jim</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
 G=C3=B6ran Selander [<a =
href=3D"mailto:goran.selander@ericsson.com">mailto:goran.selander@ericsso=
n.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 22, 2015 12:24 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> Kathleen Moriarty<br><b>Cc:</b> Jim Schaad; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cose@ietf.org">cose@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Cose] Charter State</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>Looks =
fine.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>About the =
constrained-appropriate algorithms: is the intention to consult CFRG? If =
so, maybe would be good to get that ball rolling too =
soon.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>G=C3=B6ran<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'color:black'><br>On 22 apr 2015, at 18:54, Kathleen Moriarty =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com">kathleen.moriarty.ietf@g=
mail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>Great, are others ok with =
the changes?&nbsp; If so, I'll get it =
rolling.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at =
12:41 PM, Jim Schaad &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com" =
target=3D"_blank">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Be my guest to make the changes.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Jim</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
 Cose [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">cose-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Kathleen Moriarty<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 22, 2015 9:27 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> Jim Schaad</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'><br><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:cose@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">cose@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Cose] =
Charter State<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>I am assuming the current charter text is at the =
link:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter=
.md" =
target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/dra=
ft-charter.md</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>I have some proposed changes that I think help =
with readability.&nbsp; Let me know if these are ok and I'll put in the =
charter for IESG review.&nbsp; All of the charter text is included, =
broken out by sections to show edits.&nbsp; In some cases, there is a =
Note: following a change with assumptions I was making in case they were =
not correct assumptions.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Old:</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Concise =
Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise binary format =
for the serialization of data structured to an extended version of the =
JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR was to make this data model =
more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node networks (RFC =
7228).</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>New:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Concise =
Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise binary format =
for the serialization of data structured to an extended version of the =
JSON data model. One motivation for COSE was to reuse functionality from =
the JOSE working group using the CBOR data representation as it is more =
amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node networks (RFC =
7228).</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Old:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The JOSE =
working group recently completed producing representations for =
cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and =
digital signatures, using JSON representation. This working group will =
reuse the work done by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of CBOR. =
This will rely on the JOSE registries, which, where this provides =
additional efficiency, will be expanded with additional =
information.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>New:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The JOSE =
working group recently completed producing representations for =
cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and =
digital signatures, using JSON representation. COSE will rely on the =
JOSE registries, and will be expand them with additional information =
when necessary.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Note: you may have other reasons besides =
efficiency.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Old:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The =
resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or to =
JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compabitility which =
will enable some simplification in the adaptation process.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>New: <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The =
resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or to =
JOSE formats. This lack of a need for =
bit-for-bit&nbsp;compatibility&nbsp;will enable some simplification in =
the adaptation process.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Old:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Criteria =
that should be considered on making decisions in changing from a JSON to =
a CBOR encoding are:</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;m=
argin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#333333'>=C2=B7</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#333333'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Keeping the =
current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;m=
argin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#333333'>=C2=B7</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#333333'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Minimizing =
message size, code size and computational complexity should be =
considered (for the constrained environments where we expect to use =
this).</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;m=
argin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#333333'>=C2=B7</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#333333'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Improving =
security</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;m=
argin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#333333'>=C2=B7</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#333333'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Providing =
new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require, but are required =
for the new use cases.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>New: <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Criteria =
that should be considered in the decision making process, changing from =
JSON to CBOR encoding include:</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;m=
argin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#333333'>=C2=B7</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#333333'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Maintain =
the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;m=
argin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#333333'>=C2=B7</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#333333'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Minimize =
message size, code size, and computational complexity to suit =
constrained environments, where this is expected to &nbsp;be =
used.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;m=
argin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#333333'>=C2=B7</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#333333'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Improve =
security</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;m=
argin-left:.5in;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#333333'>=C2=B7</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#333333'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Provide new =
functionality for additional use cases that were not required for =
JOSE.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Old:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Issues =
dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities are out of =
scope for the working group.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>New:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Key =
management and binding of keys to identities are out of scope for the =
working group.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Note: I am assuming you really want to out-of =
scope all key management and not just =
issues?<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>And I don't see any need to tweak the rest of the =
text:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The Working =
group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CORE working =
groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these =
constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use =
cases is expanded.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The WG will =
have two deliverables:</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><ul type=3Ddisc><li =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#333333;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto=
;line-height:19.2pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo5'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>a standards-track =
specification covering the same cryptographic formats from JOSE, with =
optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed in =
CBOR;</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#333333;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto=
;line-height:19.2pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo5'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>registration for =
algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are appropriate for constrained =
environments.</span><o:p></o:p></li></ul><p =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The Working =
Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for its work, but does =
not intend to publish this as an RFC.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;line-height:19.2pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>I'd love it if you can keep to the milestones =
projected =
:-)<br><br>Thanks.<br>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Jim Schaad &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com" =
target=3D"_blank">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>The date change proposed by me has been merged =
into the draft.<br><br>I believe that we can now consider the charter =
discussion to be complete unless anyone else has a big issue they want =
to bring up.<br><br>Kathleen:&nbsp; Can we get this to move forward into =
the IESG?<br><br>Jim<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'><br><br>&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt; =
From: Cose [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">cose-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Kathleen =
Moriarty<br>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 7:17 PM<br>&gt; To: Jim =
Schaad<br>&gt; Cc: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cose@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter =
State<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Sent from my =
iPhone<br>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; On Apr 14, 2015, at 10:10 PM, &quot;Jim =
Schaad&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com" =
target=3D"_blank">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; From: Cose [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">cose-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Kepeng =
Li<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:59 PM<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt; To: Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Cc: <a =
href=3D"mailto:cose@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [Cose] =
Charter State<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Thanks Paul.<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; There are two other changes we might want to =
incorporate:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; 1) Proposal from =
Goran:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00027.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00=
027.html</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; OLD:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
&quot;a standards-track specification covering the same =
cryptographic<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; formats<br>&gt; &gt; from<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt; JOSE, expressed in CBOR&quot;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
NEW:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;a standards-track specification covering the =
same cryptographic<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; formats<br>&gt; &gt; from<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt; JOSE and optimizations for constrained device processing, =
expressed<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; in<br>&gt; &gt; CBOR<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt; I am agnostic about including this change.&nbsp; We now are much =
more<br>&gt; &gt; constrained device focused later so it might not be =
needed.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; (2) Proposal from =
Kathleen:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00077.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00=
077.html</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; OLD:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; The =
Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE =
and<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; CoRE working groups to ensure that we are =
fulfilling the needs of<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; these constituencies.<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; NEW:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; The Working Group will =
coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
CoRE<br>&gt; &gt; and<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; DIME working groups to ensure =
that we are fulfilling the needs of<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; these =
constituencies.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; I am not sure that DIME is a =
reasonable group to be coordinating with<br>&gt; &gt; since it is not =
clear that this would be the solution space they are<br>&gt; &gt; going =
to operate in.&nbsp; It is true that this need something along =
these<br>&gt; &gt; lines, but what they need first is to get someone who =
has good<br>&gt; &gt; knowledge of what can be done in the group =
first.&nbsp; Given that this is<br>&gt; &gt; major (telecom) vendors, =
using CMS might be a better fit for this<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; The =
other question if we expand this list here rather than in the =
wiki<br>&gt; &gt; is the set of groups that Rene Struik though that =
might be included<br>&gt; &gt; here such as &quot;6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, =
etc&quot; which seem to be much closer to<br>&gt; &gt; the types of =
groups that might use this specification going forward.<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; At this point, I think I would go with the list we =
have and start<br>&gt; &gt; adding more groups to the =
wiki.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I'm fine with that approach.&nbsp; My point in =
bringing up DIME was more that they<br>&gt; need help and this *could* =
help them, but work needs to be done to figure<br>&gt; out what they =
need at this point.&nbsp; I brought it up just in case it's relevant =
to<br>&gt; COSE.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt; Kathleen<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Jim<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Kind =
Regards<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Kepeng<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&gt; &gt;&gt; ? 15/4/15 2:32 am, &quot;Paul =
Hoffman&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paul.hoffman@vpnc.org" =
target=3D"_blank">paul.hoffman@vpnc.org</a>&gt; =
??:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; On Apr 14, =
2015, at 11:20 AM, Jim Schaad &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com" =
target=3D"_blank">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would like to get Pull =
Request #2 rolled into the draft charter<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; and =
then I think we are ready to send it to the ADs and IESG for =
review.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Since it is my =
pull request I have not done the merge preferring<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that it be done by one of the others who have =
permissions.&nbsp; If I<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; get a message saying do =
the merge request I would be happy to pull<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the =
trigger on it.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; There seemed to =
be general agreement, so I accepted the pull request.<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Current version is at:<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter=
.md" =
target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/dra=
ft-charter.md</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; --Paul =
Hoffman<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; =
Cose mailing list<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Cose =
mailing list<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; &gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; =
_______________________________________________<br>&gt; &gt; Cose =
mailing list<br>&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; &gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>&gt;<=
br>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>&gt; Cose =
mailing list<br>&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><o:p></o:=
p></span></p></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'><br><br clear=3Dall><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'><br><br clear=3Dall><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>-- =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>Best =
regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>=
Cose mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/cose</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote></div><=
/div></div></blockquote></div></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_03F7_01D07E4E.A3E3F980--


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Subject: Re: [Cose] Algorithm Questions
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On 04/24/2015 02:22 PM, Jim Schaad wrote:
> 2. A combined symmetric key encryption + signature is needed for
> point-multipoint settings.
>
> Please explain what you mean by point-multipoint settings.  I am not
> familiar with that term .  (I probably know it as something else.)
>

What G=F6ran means are for example publish-subscribe scenarios, where a=20
resource representation generated (and encrypted and signed) by one=20
publisher is distributed to multiple subscribers.

Another example would be proxy-caches, serving several clients with the=20
same cached resource representation from one server (singed and=20
encrypted by that server).

>
>     3.What algorithms are we currently using today for those purposes?
>
> The default algorithms are those specified by CoAP (secp256r1 for ECDSA=
)
>
> Where?  In a document that I can easily read?
>
RFC7252 section 9.1.3.1:

" Implementations in these modes MUST support the mandatory-to-
    implement cipher suite TLS_PSK_WITH_AES_128_CCM_8 as specified in
    [RFC6655]."

and section 9.1.3.2.
"Implementations in RawPublicKey mode MUST support the=20
mandatory-to-implement cipher suite TLS_ECDHE_ECDSA_WITH_AES_128_CCM_8=20
as specified in [RFC7251], [RFC5246], and [RFC4492].  The key used MUST=20
be ECDSA capable.  The curve secp256r1 MUST be supported [RFC4492]; this =

curve is equivalent to the NIST P-256 curve.  ...."

(and section 9.1.3.3 but that basically repeats the crypto requirements=20
from 9.1.3.2)


Ludwig Seitz, PhD
SICS Swedish ICT AB
Ideon Science Park
Building Beta 2
Scheelev=E4gen 17
SE-223 70 Lund

Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51
http://www.sics.se


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From: Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com>
To: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
References: <03f601d07e89$503e1690$f0ba43b0$@augustcellars.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 12:36:10 -0400
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Cc: =?utf-8?Q?'G=C3=B6ran?= Selander' <goran.selander@ericsson.com>, cose@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Cose] Algorithm Questions
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"Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com> writes:

> From: G=C3=B6ran Selander [mailto:goran.selander@ericsson.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 11:48 PM
> To: Jim Schaad
> Cc: cose@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
>
>     In order to get the CFRG pointed in the right direction, it is necess=
ary
>     to give it some input.   To that end I would suggest we start with do=
ing a
>     survey of three questions:
>
>     1.       What type of algorithms are needed?  (key agreement, key
>     transport, signature, hash, MAC, KDF, etc)

For Key Agreement there's the question of data size vs. CPU/Power usage.
For example, Algebraic Eraser can provide a significant CPU/Power
improvement over ECDH (at the cost of addtional bits).

> For the use cases I have in mind: key transport, KDF, encryption/AEAD, ha=
sh
> and signature. But the main concern is around signatures.
>
> 1. ECDSA size of signature at 112-128 bits security is of the order of 60
> bytes which is a lot compared to 8 bytes truncated MAC. It would be good =
to
> have a recommendation of a signature algorithm with message recovery, suc=
h as
> ECPVS (which has some IPR, some of which is expiring in a few years) or o=
ther.

True, but I've not seen a third-party offline MAC protocol, only 2-party
MACs (or 3-party online systems, like Kerberos).  This is, indeed, why
we want to separate Signatures from MACs -- they have very different use
cases.

> So basically ECDSA, and it=E2=80=99s variants, have a size of 2*|r|, whic=
h comes to
> roughly 64 bytes for P-256.=C2=A0 I looked at ECPVS, and for the same lev=
el of
> security as the 8 byte truncated MAC I believe you are looking at |r| + 8=
 or
> 40 bytes for P-256.=C2=A0 It is a message size win, but I am not sure it =
is as big
> of win as you originally thought it would be.=C2=A0

I believe that it can be compressed down to |r|+1 bits.

-derek
--=20
       Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
       derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
       Computer and Internet Security Consultant


From nobody Fri Apr 24 12:47:32 2015
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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: "'Derek Atkins'" <derek@ihtfp.com>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Algorithm Questions
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Derek Atkins [mailto:derek@ihtfp.com]
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 9:36 AM
> To: Jim Schaad
> Cc: 'G=C3=B6ran Selander'; cose@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Cose] Algorithm Questions
>=20
> "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com> writes:
>=20
> > From: G=C3=B6ran Selander [mailto:goran.selander@ericsson.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 11:48 PM
> > To: Jim Schaad
> > Cc: cose@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
> >
> >     In order to get the CFRG pointed in the right direction, it is =
necessary
> >     to give it some input.   To that end I would suggest we start =
with doing a
> >     survey of three questions:
> >
> >     1.       What type of algorithms are needed?  (key agreement, =
key
> >     transport, signature, hash, MAC, KDF, etc)
>=20
> For Key Agreement there's the question of data size vs. CPU/Power =
usage.
> For example, Algebraic Eraser can provide a significant CPU/Power
> improvement over ECDH (at the cost of addtional bits).
>=20
> > For the use cases I have in mind: key transport, KDF, =
encryption/AEAD,
> > hash and signature. But the main concern is around signatures.
> >
> > 1. ECDSA size of signature at 112-128 bits security is of the order =
of
> > 60 bytes which is a lot compared to 8 bytes truncated MAC. It would =
be
> > good to have a recommendation of a signature algorithm with message
> > recovery, such as ECPVS (which has some IPR, some of which is =
expiring in a
> few years) or other.
>=20
> True, but I've not seen a third-party offline MAC protocol, only =
2-party MACs
> (or 3-party online systems, like Kerberos).  This is, indeed, why we =
want to
> separate Signatures from MACs -- they have very different use cases.
>=20
> > So basically ECDSA, and it=E2=80=99s variants, have a size of 2*|r|, =
which
> > comes to roughly 64 bytes for P-256.  I looked at ECPVS, and for the
> > same level of security as the 8 byte truncated MAC I believe you are
> > looking at |r| + 8 or
> > 40 bytes for P-256.  It is a message size win, but I am not sure it =
is
> > as big of win as you originally thought it would be.
>=20
> I believe that it can be compressed down to |r|+1 bits.

Ah, yes.  I was assuming a particular mode of doing this which would =
probably not be true.=20

I was assuming that you were doing a hash of the message and then doing =
the recovery on a portion of the hash.  If you do the recovery on the =
message itself, then the addition of the n bits to the signature (|r| + =
n) are subtracted from the message thus leading to a signature length of =
about |r|.  The question that would still need to be addressed is a =
question of needing to add some additional redundancy bytes to the =
message.  (And I really don't understand this section of the analysis =
that I am looking at.)

Jim

>=20
> -derek
> --
>        Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
>        derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
>        Computer and Internet Security Consultant


From nobody Fri Apr 24 18:25:21 2015
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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: "'cose'" <cose@ietf.org>
References: <017601d07cad$0f29f9e0$2d7deda0$@augustcellars.com>	<C246B2B0-34CC-4DEF-967C-46AE9FCF692A@vpnc.org>	<sjm4mo887ka.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org>	<024801d07d2d$6137c6b0$23a75410$@augustcellars.com> <sjmvbgm7uz8.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue:  Use arrays for some containers
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Questions:

1.  Should we use arrays or maps as top level containers for COSE?

Arrays

2.  If we use arrays, should we always use nil elements to indicate absent
elements or use them only when ambiguity in parsing arises?

Always have a field


**************************************

At this point, the majority of people who have expressed an opinion have
said that they prefer to use maps than arrays.  I have not yet seen an
argument that I could call a technical one rather than an 'emotional' one.
People are expressing a preference rather than an argument on what the
correct option is.  This applies to me as well.

After taking a long walk, I think I now understand why I prefer arrays to
maps.  I generally prefer to restrict the set of locations where arbitrary
things can be placed that might affect the security of the system.  By
allowing things in fewer places there are fewer ways that things can go
wrong.  This is not to say that things will go wrong, it is just expressing
a comfort level on my part.

On Wed I sent a message to the list and Derek, in which I outlined a policy
of either doing a strict or a lax enforcement of the fields in a map when
doing an evaluation.  I would appreciate it if people who think maps are
better can respond to this.

My personal preference is that if we do use maps, we all for applications to
specify if they want t use a strict or lax mode and would prefer that the
default is strict mode. 

Jim



From nobody Fri Apr 24 22:16:44 2015
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From: =?utf-8?B?R8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Thread-Topic: [Cose] Charter State
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 05:16:34 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
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From nobody Sat Apr 25 05:12:23 2015
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 13:12:10 +0100
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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References: <043201d076df$aa87b770$ff972650$@augustcellars.com> <50A4152F-E8F1-4890-AD03-065899ACC3BB@vpnc.org> <D153E55D.60EC%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> <04c701d07721$69175fb0$3b461f10$@augustcellars.com> <566CD668-1A69-4D37-A04E-98025906759D@gmail.com> <013d01d07c83$01465190$03d2f4b0$@augustcellars.com> <CAHbuEH7WVZQzE5bpMeDB5_YohJqgyA5HtTgZ2gq9-U58Ri6wYA@mail.gmail.com> <022601d07d1b$34298670$9c7c9350$@augustcellars.com> <CAHbuEH4kH-6_g_7ssbvs_nczpTx0BFKJzdkOC5625ki5YAmwAA@mail.gmail.com> <657EE3F5-CB06-4227-8E91-BFB3AB50233D@ericsson.com> <025a01d07d34$9f540740$ddfc15c0$@augustcellars.com> <D15E4DA6.2DA5A%goran.selander@ericsson.com> <5538B9BF.7090601@cs.tcd.ie> <D160E55E.2DE81%goran.selander@ericsson.com>
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Cc: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, "cose@ietf.org" <cose@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
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On 25/04/15 06:16, GÃ¶ran Selander wrote:
> Hi Stephen,
> 
> I asked Kenny Patterson in Dallas about signature algorithm with message
> recovery suitable for embedded devices and he recommended me to send an
> email to CFRG after the EC signature discussion had begun (and be prepared
> for delays etc.).
> 
> When the discussion appeared in COSE, I thought it would be better (e.g.
> from a "minimize disturbanceâ€� point of view) that someone contacted CFRG
> on behalf of COSE rather than me sending a personal email. Do you agree?

I wouldn't say it'll make that much difference to the timing in this
case, but sure, once there's a COSE WG and the chairs figure there's
rough consensus on just what crypto stuff is needed, it'll be good to
get a question (or set of questions) sent to CFRG from the WG.

In the past, CFRG regretted it when they answered what they thought
was the question asked, when that in fact turned out not to be the
right question to answer for a WG. People who care and are able, can
of course go get involved on the CFRG list directly to move the work
forward.

S.

> 
> 
> GÃ¶ran
> 
> 
> 
> On 2015-04-23 11:22, "Stephen Farrell" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
> 
>>
>> Please be aware tha CFRG are currently very busy with selecting
>> and documenting additional curves and associated signature
>> mechanisms. If COSE needs CFRG help, you should really try to
>> minimise what's needed.
>>
>> You could minimise that to zero by only using well-worn crypto.
>>
>> But if COSE needs to go beyond that (my I hope is it does not),
>> then you ought be ready for delay - like any other group CFRG
>> has limited bandwidth bounded by volunteer cycles.
>>
>> S.
>>
>> On 23/04/15 07:47, GÃ¶ran Selander wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> In order to get the CFRG pointed in the right direction, it is
>>> necessary to give it some input.   To that end I would suggest we start
>>> with doing a survey of three questions:
>>>
>>>
>>> 1.        What type of algorithms are needed?  (key agreement, key
>>> transport, signature, hash, MAC, KDF, etc)
>>>
>>> For the use cases I have in mind: key transport, KDF, encryption/AEAD,
>>> hash and signature. But the main concern is around signatures.
>>>
>>> 1. ECDSA size of signature at 112-128 bits security is of the order of
>>> 60 bytes which is a lot compared to 8 bytes truncated MAC. It would be
>>> good to have a recommendation of a signature algorithm with message
>>> recovery, such as ECPVS (which has some IPR, some of which is expiring
>>> in a few years) or other.
>>>
>>> 2. A combined symmetric key encryption + signature is needed for
>>> point-multipoint settings.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2.       What are the constraints we really care about?
>>>
>>> The charter says "Minimizing message size, code size and computational
>>> complexityâ€�.  In order of importance for signatures Iâ€™d say message
>>> size, computational complexity, code size.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 3.       What algorithms are we currently using today for those
>>> purposes?
>>>
>>>
>>> The default algorithms are those specified by CoAP (secp256r1 for ECDSA)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>> From: GÃ¶ran Selander [mailto:goran.selander@ericsson.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 12:24 PM
>>> To: Kathleen Moriarty
>>> Cc: Jim Schaad; cose@ietf.org<mailto:cose@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
>>>
>>> Looks fine.
>>>
>>> About the constrained-appropriate algorithms: is the intention to
>>> consult CFRG? If so, maybe would be good to get that ball rolling too
>>> soon.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> GÃ¶ran
>>>
>>> On 22 apr 2015, at 18:54, Kathleen Moriarty
>>> <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>> Great, are others ok with the changes?  If so, I'll get it rolling.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Jim Schaad
>>> <ietf@augustcellars.com<mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com>> wrote:
>>> Be my guest to make the changes.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org>]
>>> On Behalf Of Kathleen Moriarty
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 9:27 AM
>>> To: Jim Schaad
>>>
>>> Cc: cose@ietf.org<mailto:cose@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I am assuming the current charter text is at the link:
>>> https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
>>>
>>> I have some proposed changes that I think help with readability.  Let
>>> me know if these are ok and I'll put in the charter for IESG review.
>>> All of the charter text is included, broken out by sections to show
>>> edits.  In some cases, there is a Note: following a change with
>>> assumptions I was making in case they were not correct assumptions.
>>>
>>> Old:Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise
>>> binary format for the serialization of data structured to an extended
>>> version of the JSON data model. One motivation for CBOR was to make this
>>> data model more amenable to constrained nodes and constrained node
>>> networks (RFC 7228).
>>> New:
>>> Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a concise
>>> binary format for the serialization of data structured to an extended
>>> version of the JSON data model. One motivation for COSE was to reuse
>>> functionality from the JOSE working group using the CBOR data
>>> representation as it is more amenable to constrained nodes and
>>> constrained node networks (RFC 7228).
>>>
>>> Old:
>>> The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations for
>>> cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and
>>> digital signatures, using JSON representation. This working group will
>>> reuse the work done by JOSE, adapting it to the capabilities of CBOR.
>>> This will rely on the JOSE registries, which, where this provides
>>> additional efficiency, will be expanded with additional information.
>>> New:
>>> The JOSE working group recently completed producing representations for
>>> cryptographic keys, message authentication (MACs), encryption, and
>>> digital signatures, using JSON representation. COSE will rely on the
>>> JOSE registries, and will be expand them with additional information
>>> when necessary.
>>>
>>> Note: you may have other reasons besides efficiency.
>>>
>>> Old:
>>> The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or
>>> to JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compabitility which
>>> will enable some simplification in the adaptation process.
>>> New:
>>> The resulting formats will not be cryptographically convertible from or
>>> to JOSE formats. This lack of a need for bit-for-bit compatibility will
>>> enable some simplification in the adaptation process.
>>>
>>> Old:
>>>
>>> Criteria that should be considered on making decisions in changing from
>>> a JSON to a CBOR encoding are:
>>>
>>> Â·      Keeping the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where feasible.
>>>
>>> Â·      Minimizing message size, code size and computational complexity
>>> should be considered (for the constrained environments where we expect
>>> to use this).
>>>
>>> Â·      Improving security
>>>
>>> Â·      Providing new functionality that uses of JOSE did not require,
>>> but are required for the new use cases.
>>> New:
>>>
>>> Criteria that should be considered in the decision making process,
>>> changing from JSON to CBOR encoding include:
>>>
>>> Â·      Maintain the current JOSE paradigms and formatting where
>>> feasible.
>>>
>>> Â·      Minimize message size, code size, and computational complexity
>>> to suit constrained environments, where this is expected to  be used.
>>>
>>> Â·      Improve security
>>>
>>> Â·      Provide new functionality for additional use cases that were not
>>> required for JOSE.
>>> Old:
>>> Issues dealing with key management and binding of keys to identities
>>> are out of scope for the working group.
>>> New:
>>> Key management and binding of keys to identities are out of scope for
>>> the working group.
>>>
>>> Note: I am assuming you really want to out-of scope all key management
>>> and not just issues?
>>>
>>> And I don't see any need to tweak the rest of the text:
>>>
>>> The Working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and
>>> CORE working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these
>>> constituencies. Other groups may be added to this list as the set of use
>>> cases is expanded.
>>>
>>> The WG will have two deliverables:
>>>
>>>   *   a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
>>> formats from JOSE, with optimizations for constrained device processing,
>>> expressed in CBOR;
>>>   *   registration for algorithms (such as AES-CCM-8) that are
>>> appropriate for constrained environments.
>>>
>>> The Working Group will use a wiki to track desired use cases for its
>>> work, but does not intend to publish this as an RFC.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd love it if you can keep to the milestones projected :-)
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Jim Schaad
>>> <ietf@augustcellars.com<mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com>> wrote:
>>> The date change proposed by me has been merged into the draft.
>>>
>>> I believe that we can now consider the charter discussion to be
>>> complete unless anyone else has a big issue they want to bring up.
>>>
>>> Kathleen:  Can we get this to move forward into the IESG?
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Cose 
>>>> [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf
>>>> Of Kathleen Moriarty
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 7:17 PM
>>>> To: Jim Schaad
>>>> Cc: Kepeng Li; Paul Hoffman; cose@ietf.org<mailto:cose@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 14, 2015, at 10:10 PM, "Jim Schaad"
>>>>> <ietf@augustcellars.com<mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Cose 
>>>>>> [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org>] On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Kepeng Li
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:59 PM
>>>>>> To: Paul Hoffman; Jim Schaad
>>>>>> Cc: cose@ietf.org<mailto:cose@ietf.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Cose] Charter State
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks Paul.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are two other changes we might want to incorporate:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) Proposal from Goran:
>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00027.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OLD:
>>>>>> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
>>>>>> formats
>>>>> from
>>>>>> JOSE, expressed in CBOR"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>> "a standards-track specification covering the same cryptographic
>>>>>> formats
>>>>> from
>>>>>> JOSE and optimizations for constrained device processing, expressed
>>>>>> in
>>>>> CBOR
>>>>>
>>>>> I am agnostic about including this change.  We now are much more
>>>>> constrained device focused later so it might not be needed.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (2) Proposal from Kathleen:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00077.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OLD:
>>>>>> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and
>>>>>> CoRE working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of
>>>>>> these constituencies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>> The Working Group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE,
>>>>>> CoRE
>>>>> and
>>>>>> DIME working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of
>>>>>> these constituencies.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not sure that DIME is a reasonable group to be coordinating with
>>>>> since it is not clear that this would be the solution space they are
>>>>> going to operate in.  It is true that this need something along these
>>>>> lines, but what they need first is to get someone who has good
>>>>> knowledge of what can be done in the group first.  Given that this is
>>>>> major (telecom) vendors, using CMS might be a better fit for this
>>>>>
>>>>> The other question if we expand this list here rather than in the wiki
>>>>> is the set of groups that Rene Struik though that might be included
>>>>> here such as "6TiSCH, 6lo, RoLL, etc" which seem to be much closer to
>>>>> the types of groups that might use this specification going forward.
>>>>>
>>>>> At this point, I think I would go with the list we have and start
>>>>> adding more groups to the wiki.
>>>>
>>>> I'm fine with that approach.  My point in bringing up DIME was more
>>>> that they
>>>> need help and this *could* help them, but work needs to be done to
>>>> figure
>>>> out what they need at this point.  I brought it up just in case it's
>>>> relevant to
>>>> COSE.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kind Regards
>>>>>> Kepeng
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ? 15/4/15 2:32 am, "Paul Hoffman"
>>>>>> <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org<mailto:paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>> ??:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Jim Schaad
>>>>>>> <ietf@augustcellars.com<mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would like to get Pull Request #2 rolled into the draft charter
>>>>>>>> and then I think we are ready to send it to the ADs and IESG for
>>>>>>>> review.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since it is my pull request I have not done the merge preferring
>>>>>>>> that it be done by one of the others who have permissions.  If I
>>>>>>>> get a message saying do the merge request I would be happy to pull
>>>>>>>> the trigger on it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There seemed to be general agreement, so I accepted the pull
>>>>>>> request.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Current version is at:
>>>>>>> https://github.com/cose-spec/wg-charter/blob/master/draft-charter.md
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --Paul Hoffman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Cose mailing list
>>>>>>> Cose@ietf.org<mailto:Cose@ietf.org>
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Cose mailing list
>>>>>> Cose@ietf.org<mailto:Cose@ietf.org>
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Cose mailing list
>>>>> Cose@ietf.org<mailto:Cose@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Cose mailing list
>>>> Cose@ietf.org<mailto:Cose@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Kathleen
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Cose mailing list
>>> Cose@ietf.org<mailto:Cose@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Cose mailing list
>>> Cose@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> 


From nobody Sat Apr 25 06:51:56 2015
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I initially felt strongly for using maps and not arrays, I think that was
mostly since it is so convenient in JavaScript but as keys in the map are
changed from string to integers some of the readability and simplicity
falls away. Initially I also thought that adding new element in an array
would be harder but I guess it would be more or less the same if I have a
map where I don=C2=B4t address all elements compared to an array where I do=
n=C2=B4t
read the end.

With that said I=C2=B4m still slightly more in favor of maps and if using a=
rrays
I=C2=B4m strongly in favor of having null for absent values. To me it seems
unnecessarily complex to analyse the type of an object based on previous
object.

Another reflection, for this protocol to get adoption implementors needs to
feel that it would be simple to use, and since my first reaction was to
intuitively prefer maps I think that using maps would benefit adoption.

Best Regards
//Samuel








On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 3:24 AM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:

> Questions:
>
> 1.  Should we use arrays or maps as top level containers for COSE?
>
> Arrays
>
> 2.  If we use arrays, should we always use nil elements to indicate absen=
t
> elements or use them only when ambiguity in parsing arises?
>
> Always have a field
>
>
> **************************************
>
> At this point, the majority of people who have expressed an opinion have
> said that they prefer to use maps than arrays.  I have not yet seen an
> argument that I could call a technical one rather than an 'emotional' one=
.
> People are expressing a preference rather than an argument on what the
> correct option is.  This applies to me as well.
>
> After taking a long walk, I think I now understand why I prefer arrays to
> maps.  I generally prefer to restrict the set of locations where arbitrar=
y
> things can be placed that might affect the security of the system.  By
> allowing things in fewer places there are fewer ways that things can go
> wrong.  This is not to say that things will go wrong, it is just expressi=
ng
> a comfort level on my part.
>
> On Wed I sent a message to the list and Derek, in which I outlined a poli=
cy
> of either doing a strict or a lax enforcement of the fields in a map when
> doing an evaluation.  I would appreciate it if people who think maps are
> better can respond to this.
>
> My personal preference is that if we do use maps, we all for applications
> to
> specify if they want t use a strict or lax mode and would prefer that the
> default is strict mode.
>
> Jim
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>

--089e0160b6de8da1dc05148cd068
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I initially felt strongly for using maps and not arrays, I=
 think that was mostly since it is so convenient in JavaScript but as keys =
in the map are changed from string to integers some of the readability and =
simplicity falls away. Initially I also thought that adding new element in =
an array would be harder but I guess it would be more or less the same if I=
 have a map where I don=C2=B4t address all elements compared to an array wh=
ere I don=C2=B4t read the end.<div><br></div><div>With that said I=C2=B4m s=
till slightly more in favor of maps and if using arrays I=C2=B4m strongly i=
n favor of having null for absent values. To me it seems unnecessarily comp=
lex to analyse the type of an object based on previous object.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>Another reflection, for this protocol to get adoption implemen=
tors needs to feel that it would be simple to use, and since my first react=
ion was to intuitively prefer maps I think that using maps would benefit ad=
option.</div><div><br></div><div>Best Regards</div><div>//Samuel</div><div>=
<br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></=
div><div><br></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 3:24 AM, Jim Schaad <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com" target=3D"_blank">ietf@augus=
tcellars.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span =
class=3D"">Questions:<br>
<br>
1.=C2=A0 Should we use arrays or maps as top level containers for COSE?<br>
<br>
</span>Arrays<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
2.=C2=A0 If we use arrays, should we always use nil elements to indicate ab=
sent<br>
elements or use them only when ambiguity in parsing arises?<br>
<br>
</span>Always have a field<br>
<br>
<br>
**************************************<br>
<br>
At this point, the majority of people who have expressed an opinion have<br=
>
said that they prefer to use maps than arrays.=C2=A0 I have not yet seen an=
<br>
argument that I could call a technical one rather than an &#39;emotional&#3=
9; one.<br>
People are expressing a preference rather than an argument on what the<br>
correct option is.=C2=A0 This applies to me as well.<br>
<br>
After taking a long walk, I think I now understand why I prefer arrays to<b=
r>
maps.=C2=A0 I generally prefer to restrict the set of locations where arbit=
rary<br>
things can be placed that might affect the security of the system.=C2=A0 By=
<br>
allowing things in fewer places there are fewer ways that things can go<br>
wrong.=C2=A0 This is not to say that things will go wrong, it is just expre=
ssing<br>
a comfort level on my part.<br>
<br>
On Wed I sent a message to the list and Derek, in which I outlined a policy=
<br>
of either doing a strict or a lax enforcement of the fields in a map when<b=
r>
doing an evaluation.=C2=A0 I would appreciate it if people who think maps a=
re<br>
better can respond to this.<br>
<br>
My personal preference is that if we do use maps, we all for applications t=
o<br>
specify if they want t use a strict or lax mode and would prefer that the<b=
r>
default is strict mode.<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Jim<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Cose mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--089e0160b6de8da1dc05148cd068--


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From: Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com>
To: Samuel Erdtman <samuel@erdtman.se>
References: <017601d07cad$0f29f9e0$2d7deda0$@augustcellars.com> <C246B2B0-34CC-4DEF-967C-46AE9FCF692A@vpnc.org> <sjm4mo887ka.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <024801d07d2d$6137c6b0$23a75410$@augustcellars.com> <sjmvbgm7uz8.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <04a401d07ef6$827dc700$87795500$@augustcellars.com> <CAF2hCbZN7rvKyX=z8sUXUSRpT9X0YqvTMaHWLpXRM2BOBd2gag@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 10:04:58 -0400
In-Reply-To: <CAF2hCbZN7rvKyX=z8sUXUSRpT9X0YqvTMaHWLpXRM2BOBd2gag@mail.gmail.com> (Samuel Erdtman's message of "Sat, 25 Apr 2015 15:51:50 +0200")
Message-ID: <sjmwq0x4qgl.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org>
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Cc: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, cose <cose@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue: Use arrays for some containers
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Samuel,

Samuel Erdtman <samuel@erdtman.se> writes:

> I initially felt strongly for using maps and not arrays, I think that was
> mostly since it is so convenient in JavaScript but as keys in the map are
> changed from string to integers some of the readability and simplicity fa=
lls
> away. Initially I also thought that adding new element in an array would =
be
> harder but I guess it would be more or less the same if I have a map wher=
e I
> don=C2=B4t address all elements compared to an array where I don=C2=B4t r=
ead the end.

Do you mean (User) Presentation Layer readability?  Or on-the-wire
readability?  Yes, the latter is definitely different with the
conversion to integers, but the former does not necessarily disappear.
The parser could have the mapping from string -> integer and be able to
"present" the strings to the user.

> With that said I=C2=B4m still slightly more in favor of maps and if using=
 arrays
> I=C2=B4m strongly in favor of having null for absent values. To me it see=
ms
> unnecessarily complex to analyse the type of an object based on previous
> object.
>
> Another reflection, for this protocol to get adoption implementors needs =
to
> feel that it would be simple to use, and since my first reaction was to
> intuitively prefer maps I think that using maps would benefit adoption.
>
> Best Regards
> //Samuel

-derek

> On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 3:24 AM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrot=
e:
>
>     Questions:
>=20=20=20=20
>     1.=C2=A0 Should we use arrays or maps as top level containers for COS=
E?
>=20=20=20=20
>     Arrays
>=20=20=20=20
>     2.=C2=A0 If we use arrays, should we always use nil elements to indic=
ate absent
>     elements or use them only when ambiguity in parsing arises?
>=20=20=20=20
>     Always have a field
>
>     **************************************
>=20=20=20=20
>     At this point, the majority of people who have expressed an opinion h=
ave
>     said that they prefer to use maps than arrays.=C2=A0 I have not yet s=
een an
>     argument that I could call a technical one rather than an 'emotional'=
 one.
>     People are expressing a preference rather than an argument on what the
>     correct option is.=C2=A0 This applies to me as well.
>=20=20=20=20
>     After taking a long walk, I think I now understand why I prefer array=
s to
>     maps.=C2=A0 I generally prefer to restrict the set of locations where=
 arbitrary
>     things can be placed that might affect the security of the system.=C2=
=A0 By
>     allowing things in fewer places there are fewer ways that things can =
go
>     wrong.=C2=A0 This is not to say that things will go wrong, it is just
>     expressing
>     a comfort level on my part.
>=20=20=20=20
>     On Wed I sent a message to the list and Derek, in which I outlined a
>     policy
>     of either doing a strict or a lax enforcement of the fields in a map =
when
>     doing an evaluation.=C2=A0 I would appreciate it if people who think =
maps are
>     better can respond to this.
>=20=20=20=20
>     My personal preference is that if we do use maps, we all for applicat=
ions
>     to
>     specify if they want t use a strict or lax mode and would prefer that=
 the
>     default is strict mode.
>=20=20=20=20
>     Jim
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Cose mailing list
>     Cose@ietf.org
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose

--=20
       Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
       derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
       Computer and Internet Security Consultant


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References: <017601d07cad$0f29f9e0$2d7deda0$@augustcellars.com> <C246B2B0-34CC-4DEF-967C-46AE9FCF692A@vpnc.org> <sjm4mo887ka.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <024801d07d2d$6137c6b0$23a75410$@augustcellars.com> <sjmvbgm7uz8.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <04a401d07ef6$827dc700$87795500$@augustcellars.com> <CAF2hCbZN7rvKyX=z8sUXUSRpT9X0YqvTMaHWLpXRM2BOBd2gag@mail.gmail.com> <sjmwq0x4qgl.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 06:45:11 +0200
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From: Samuel Erdtman <samuel@erdtman.se>
To: Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com>
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Cc: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, cose <cose@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue: Use arrays for some containers
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Derek

see inline

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 4:04 PM, Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com> wrote:

> Samuel,
>
> Samuel Erdtman <samuel@erdtman.se> writes:
>
> > I initially felt strongly for using maps and not arrays, I think that w=
as
> > mostly since it is so convenient in JavaScript but as keys in the map a=
re
> > changed from string to integers some of the readability and simplicity
> falls
> > away. Initially I also thought that adding new element in an array woul=
d
> be
> > harder but I guess it would be more or less the same if I have a map
> where I
> > don=C2=B4t address all elements compared to an array where I don=C2=B4t=
 read the
> end.
>
> Do you mean (User) Presentation Layer readability?  Or on-the-wire
> readability?  Yes, the latter is definitely different with the
> conversion to integers, but the former does not necessarily disappear.
> The parser could have the mapping from string -> integer and be able to
> "present" the strings to the user.
>


Don=C2=B4t think that I had thought about it in that detail. I completely a=
gree
with you that it is possible to put a presentation layer on top of both
these scenario (map and array) so that one would see strings/labels when
writing code or looking at the bytes in wireshark (or similar), however
there will always be the case when you don=C2=B4t have the tools available =
and
in those cases readability will be slightly easier with maps IMHO.


>
> > With that said I=C2=B4m still slightly more in favor of maps and if usi=
ng
> arrays
> > I=C2=B4m strongly in favor of having null for absent values. To me it s=
eems
> > unnecessarily complex to analyse the type of an object based on previou=
s
> > object.
> >
> > Another reflection, for this protocol to get adoption implementors need=
s
> to
> > feel that it would be simple to use, and since my first reaction was to
> > intuitively prefer maps I think that using maps would benefit adoption.
> >
> > Best Regards
> > //Samuel
>
> -derek
>
> > On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 3:24 AM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >     Questions:
> >
> >     1.  Should we use arrays or maps as top level containers for COSE?
> >
> >     Arrays
> >
> >     2.  If we use arrays, should we always use nil elements to indicate
> absent
> >     elements or use them only when ambiguity in parsing arises?
> >
> >     Always have a field
> >
> >     **************************************
> >
> >     At this point, the majority of people who have expressed an opinion
> have
> >     said that they prefer to use maps than arrays.  I have not yet seen
> an
> >     argument that I could call a technical one rather than an
> 'emotional' one.
> >     People are expressing a preference rather than an argument on what
> the
> >     correct option is.  This applies to me as well.
> >
> >     After taking a long walk, I think I now understand why I prefer
> arrays to
> >     maps.  I generally prefer to restrict the set of locations where
> arbitrary
> >     things can be placed that might affect the security of the system.
> By
> >     allowing things in fewer places there are fewer ways that things ca=
n
> go
> >     wrong.  This is not to say that things will go wrong, it is just
> >     expressing
> >     a comfort level on my part.
> >
> >     On Wed I sent a message to the list and Derek, in which I outlined =
a
> >     policy
> >     of either doing a strict or a lax enforcement of the fields in a ma=
p
> when
> >     doing an evaluation.  I would appreciate it if people who think map=
s
> are
> >     better can respond to this.
> >
> >     My personal preference is that if we do use maps, we all for
> applications
> >     to
> >     specify if they want t use a strict or lax mode and would prefer
> that the
> >     default is strict mode.
> >
> >     Jim
> >
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     Cose mailing list
> >     Cose@ietf.org
> >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cose mailing list
> > Cose@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>
> --
>        Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
>        derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
>        Computer and Internet Security Consultant
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Derek<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra">see inline</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 4:04 PM, Derek Atkins <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:derek@ihtfp.com" target=3D"_blank">derek@ihtfp.=
com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,2=
04);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">Samuel,<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
Samuel Erdtman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:samuel@erdtman.se">samuel@erdtman.se</=
a>&gt; writes:<br>
<br>
&gt; I initially felt strongly for using maps and not arrays, I think that =
was<br>
&gt; mostly since it is so convenient in JavaScript but as keys in the map =
are<br>
&gt; changed from string to integers some of the readability and simplicity=
 falls<br>
&gt; away. Initially I also thought that adding new element in an array wou=
ld be<br>
&gt; harder but I guess it would be more or less the same if I have a map w=
here I<br>
&gt; don=C2=B4t address all elements compared to an array where I don=C2=B4=
t read the end.<br>
<br>
</span>Do you mean (User) Presentation Layer readability?=C2=A0 Or on-the-w=
ire<br>
readability?=C2=A0 Yes, the latter is definitely different with the<br>
conversion to integers, but the former does not necessarily disappear.<br>
The parser could have the mapping from string -&gt; integer and be able to<=
br>
&quot;present&quot; the strings to the user.<br></blockquote><div><br></div=
><div><br></div><div>Don=C2=B4t think that I had thought about it in that d=
etail. I completely agree with you that it is possible to put a presentatio=
n layer on top of both these scenario (map and array) so that one would see=
 strings/labels when writing code or looking at the bytes in wireshark (or =
similar), however there will always be the case when you don=C2=B4t have th=
e tools available and in those cases readability will be slightly easier wi=
th maps IMHO.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(20=
4,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; With that said I=C2=B4m still slightly more in favor of maps and if us=
ing arrays<br>
&gt; I=C2=B4m strongly in favor of having null for absent values. To me it =
seems<br>
&gt; unnecessarily complex to analyse the type of an object based on previo=
us<br>
&gt; object.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Another reflection, for this protocol to get adoption implementors nee=
ds to<br>
&gt; feel that it would be simple to use, and since my first reaction was t=
o<br>
&gt; intuitively prefer maps I think that using maps would benefit adoption=
.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Best Regards<br>
&gt; //Samuel<br>
<br>
</span><span class=3D""><font color=3D"#888888">-derek<br>
</font></span><div class=3D""><div class=3D"h5"><br>
&gt; On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 3:24 AM, Jim Schaad &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf=
@augustcellars.com">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Questions:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01.=C2=A0 Should we use arrays or maps as top level =
containers for COSE?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Arrays<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02.=C2=A0 If we use arrays, should we always use nil=
 elements to indicate absent<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0elements or use them only when ambiguity in parsing=
 arises?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Always have a field<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0**************************************<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0At this point, the majority of people who have expr=
essed an opinion have<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0said that they prefer to use maps than arrays.=C2=
=A0 I have not yet seen an<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0argument that I could call a technical one rather t=
han an &#39;emotional&#39; one.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0People are expressing a preference rather than an a=
rgument on what the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0correct option is.=C2=A0 This applies to me as well=
.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0After taking a long walk, I think I now understand =
why I prefer arrays to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0maps.=C2=A0 I generally prefer to restrict the set =
of locations where arbitrary<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0things can be placed that might affect the security=
 of the system.=C2=A0 By<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0allowing things in fewer places there are fewer way=
s that things can go<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0wrong.=C2=A0 This is not to say that things will go=
 wrong, it is just<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0expressing<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a comfort level on my part.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Wed I sent a message to the list and Derek, in w=
hich I outlined a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0policy<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of either doing a strict or a lax enforcement of th=
e fields in a map when<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0doing an evaluation.=C2=A0 I would appreciate it if=
 people who think maps are<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0better can respond to this.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0My personal preference is that if we do use maps, w=
e all for applications<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0specify if they want t use a strict or lax mode and=
 would prefer that the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0default is strict mode.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jim<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cose mailing list<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a><=
br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/co=
se" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Cose mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>
<br>
</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"h5">--<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Derek Atkins=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:617-623-3745" value=3D"+161762337=
45">617-623-3745</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:derek@ihtfp.com">derek@ihtfp.c=
om</a>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"http://www=
.ihtfp.com" target=3D"_blank">www.ihtfp.com</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Computer and Internet Security Consultant<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: "'Samuel Erdtman'" <samuel@erdtman.se>, "'Derek Atkins'" <derek@ihtfp.com>
References: <017601d07cad$0f29f9e0$2d7deda0$@augustcellars.com> <C246B2B0-34CC-4DEF-967C-46AE9FCF692A@vpnc.org> <sjm4mo887ka.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <024801d07d2d$6137c6b0$23a75410$@augustcellars.com> <sjmvbgm7uz8.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <04a401d07ef6$827dc700$87795500$@augustcellars.com> <CAF2hCbZN7rvKyX=z8sUXUSRpT9X0YqvTMaHWLpXRM2BOBd2gag@mail.gmail.com> <sjmwq0x4qgl.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <CAF2hCbYhsgN9_2aH-Uw1J+yMaahcH4B8_G=DzemF5Rz50C5Dgg@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue: Use arrays for some containers
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=20

=20

From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Samuel Erdtman
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 9:45 PM
To: Derek Atkins
Cc: Jim Schaad; cose
Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue: Use arrays for some containers

=20

Derek

=20

see inline

=20

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 4:04 PM, Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com> wrote:

Samuel,

Samuel Erdtman <samuel@erdtman.se> writes:

> I initially felt strongly for using maps and not arrays, I think that =
was
> mostly since it is so convenient in JavaScript but as keys in the map =
are
> changed from string to integers some of the readability and simplicity =
falls
> away. Initially I also thought that adding new element in an array =
would be
> harder but I guess it would be more or less the same if I have a map =
where I
> don=C2=B4t address all elements compared to an array where I =
don=C2=B4t read the end.

Do you mean (User) Presentation Layer readability?  Or on-the-wire
readability?  Yes, the latter is definitely different with the
conversion to integers, but the former does not necessarily disappear.
The parser could have the mapping from string -> integer and be able to
"present" the strings to the user.

=20

=20

Don=C2=B4t think that I had thought about it in that detail. I =
completely agree with you that it is possible to put a presentation =
layer on top of both these scenario (map and array) so that one would =
see strings/labels when writing code or looking at the bytes in =
wireshark (or similar), however there will always be the case when you =
don=C2=B4t have the tools available and in those cases readability will =
be slightly easier with maps IMHO.

=20

I think that you are going to be disappointed in terms of readability.  =
Remember that we are using integer key names for the most part so you =
are not going to get any useful hints.  You are going to see something =
like

=20

{ 1:{2:3, 4:h=E2=80=99xXXXXXXXXX=E2=80=99}, =
5:h=E2=80=99XXXXXXXXXXXX=E2=80=99, 6:[{7:h=E2=80=99XXXXXX=E2=80=99}]}

=20

I don=E2=80=99t think that this is going to make life any easier if you =
don=E2=80=99t remember what all of the indexes are vs where things are =
in an array.

=20

Jim

=20

=20


> With that said I=C2=B4m still slightly more in favor of maps and if =
using arrays
> I=C2=B4m strongly in favor of having null for absent values. To me it =
seems
> unnecessarily complex to analyse the type of an object based on =
previous
> object.
>
> Another reflection, for this protocol to get adoption implementors =
needs to
> feel that it would be simple to use, and since my first reaction was =
to
> intuitively prefer maps I think that using maps would benefit =
adoption.
>
> Best Regards
> //Samuel

-derek


> On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 3:24 AM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> =
wrote:
>
>     Questions:
>
>     1.  Should we use arrays or maps as top level containers for COSE?
>
>     Arrays
>
>     2.  If we use arrays, should we always use nil elements to =
indicate absent
>     elements or use them only when ambiguity in parsing arises?
>
>     Always have a field
>
>     **************************************
>
>     At this point, the majority of people who have expressed an =
opinion have
>     said that they prefer to use maps than arrays.  I have not yet =
seen an
>     argument that I could call a technical one rather than an =
'emotional' one.
>     People are expressing a preference rather than an argument on what =
the
>     correct option is.  This applies to me as well.
>
>     After taking a long walk, I think I now understand why I prefer =
arrays to
>     maps.  I generally prefer to restrict the set of locations where =
arbitrary
>     things can be placed that might affect the security of the system. =
 By
>     allowing things in fewer places there are fewer ways that things =
can go
>     wrong.  This is not to say that things will go wrong, it is just
>     expressing
>     a comfort level on my part.
>
>     On Wed I sent a message to the list and Derek, in which I outlined =
a
>     policy
>     of either doing a strict or a lax enforcement of the fields in a =
map when
>     doing an evaluation.  I would appreciate it if people who think =
maps are
>     better can respond to this.
>
>     My personal preference is that if we do use maps, we all for =
applications
>     to
>     specify if they want t use a strict or lax mode and would prefer =
that the
>     default is strict mode.
>
>     Jim
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Cose mailing list
>     Cose@ietf.org
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose

--
       Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
       derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
       Computer and Internet Security Consultant

=20


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style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Samuel =
Erdtman<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 27, 2015 9:45 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
Derek Atkins<br><b>Cc:</b> Jim Schaad; cose<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Cose] Issue: Use arrays for some =
containers<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Derek<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>see inline<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Mon, =
Apr 27, 2015 at 4:04 PM, Derek Atkins &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:derek@ihtfp.com" =
target=3D"_blank">derek@ihtfp.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Samuel,<br><br>Samuel Erdtman &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:samuel@erdtman.se">samuel@erdtman.se</a>&gt; =
writes:<br><br>&gt; I initially felt strongly for using maps and not =
arrays, I think that was<br>&gt; mostly since it is so convenient in =
JavaScript but as keys in the map are<br>&gt; changed from string to =
integers some of the readability and simplicity falls<br>&gt; away. =
Initially I also thought that adding new element in an array would =
be<br>&gt; harder but I guess it would be more or less the same if I =
have a map where I<br>&gt; don=C2=B4t address all elements compared to =
an array where I don=C2=B4t read the end.<br><br>Do you mean (User) =
Presentation Layer readability?&nbsp; Or =
on-the-wire<br>readability?&nbsp; Yes, the latter is definitely =
different with the<br>conversion to integers, but the former does not =
necessarily disappear.<br>The parser could have the mapping from string =
-&gt; integer and be able to<br>&quot;present&quot; the strings to the =
user.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Don=C2=B4t think that I had thought about it in that =
detail. I completely agree with you that it is possible to put a =
presentation layer on top of both these scenario (map and array) so that =
one would see strings/labels when writing code or looking at the bytes =
in wireshark (or similar), however there will always be the case when =
you don=C2=B4t have the tools available and in those cases readability =
will be slightly easier with maps IMHO.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I think that you are going to be disappointed in terms of =
readability.=C2=A0 Remember that we are using integer key names for the =
most part so you are not going to get any useful hints.=C2=A0 You are =
going to see something like<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>{ 1:{2:3, 4:h=E2=80=99xXXXXXXXXX=E2=80=99}, =
5:h=E2=80=99XXXXXXXXXXXX=E2=80=99, =
6:[{7:h=E2=80=99XXXXXX=E2=80=99}]}<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I don=E2=80=99t think that this is going to make life any easier if =
you don=E2=80=99t remember what all of the indexes are vs where things =
are in an array.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Jim<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><span =
class=3Dim>&gt; With that said I=C2=B4m still slightly more in favor of =
maps and if using arrays</span><br><span class=3Dim>&gt; I=C2=B4m =
strongly in favor of having null for absent values. To me it =
seems</span><br><span class=3Dim>&gt; unnecessarily complex to analyse =
the type of an object based on previous</span><br><span class=3Dim>&gt; =
object.</span><br><span class=3Dim>&gt;</span><br><span class=3Dim>&gt; =
Another reflection, for this protocol to get adoption implementors needs =
to</span><br><span class=3Dim>&gt; feel that it would be simple to use, =
and since my first reaction was to</span><br><span class=3Dim>&gt; =
intuitively prefer maps I think that using maps would benefit =
adoption.</span><br><span class=3Dim>&gt;</span><br><span =
class=3Dim>&gt; Best Regards</span><br><span class=3Dim>&gt; =
//Samuel</span><br><br><span =
style=3D'color:#888888'>-derek</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>&gt; On Sat, Apr =
25, 2015 at 3:24 AM, Jim Schaad &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;Questions:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;1.&nbsp; Should we =
use arrays or maps as top level containers for =
COSE?<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Arrays<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;2.&nbsp; If we use arrays, should we always use nil =
elements to indicate absent<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;elements or use =
them only when ambiguity in parsing arises?<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;Always have a field<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;**************************************<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;At this point, the majority of people who have expressed an =
opinion have<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;said that they prefer to use =
maps than arrays.&nbsp; I have not yet seen an<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;argument that I could call a technical one rather than an =
'emotional' one.<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;People are expressing a =
preference rather than an argument on what the<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;correct option is.&nbsp; This applies to me as =
well.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;After taking a long walk, I =
think I now understand why I prefer arrays to<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;maps.&nbsp; I generally prefer to restrict the set of locations =
where arbitrary<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;things can be placed that =
might affect the security of the system.&nbsp; By<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;allowing things in fewer places there are fewer ways that things =
can go<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;wrong.&nbsp; This is not to say that =
things will go wrong, it is just<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;expressing<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;a comfort level on my =
part.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;On Wed I sent a message to the =
list and Derek, in which I outlined a<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;policy<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;of either doing a strict or a =
lax enforcement of the fields in a map when<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;doing an evaluation.&nbsp; I would appreciate it if people who =
think maps are<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;better can respond to =
this.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;My personal preference is that =
if we do use maps, we all for applications<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;to<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;specify if they want t use a strict =
or lax mode and would prefer that the<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;default =
is strict mode.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;Jim<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;_______________________________________________<br>&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;Cose mailing list<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><br>&gt;<=
br>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>&gt; Cose =
mailing list<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:Cose@ietf.org">Cose@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>--<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;Derek Atkins&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"tel:617-623-3745">617-623-3745</a><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:derek@ihtfp.com">derek@ihtfp.com</a>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.ihtfp.com" =
target=3D"_blank">www.ihtfp.com</a><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;Computer and Internet Security =
Consultant<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></div></body></h=
tml>
------=_NextPart_000_021C_01D0817E.2DD6D220--


From nobody Tue Apr 28 07:31:58 2015
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From: "Stephen Farrell" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Subject: [Cose] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-cose-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-cose-00-00: Block

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-cose/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
BLOCK:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I was initially skeptical of this work, doubting that
there is really sufficient real interest in CBOR to
justify spending the time on a WG. However, (just about)
enough people argued that they would or are using CBOR to
convince me that there could well be a real constituency
here. And given that, I'd prefer the work be done in the
IETF rather than ad-hoc and possibly by some folks who'd
prioritise constrained-system requirements too much over
security and privacy requirements. So in the end, I'm for
doing this.

I do have one blocking thing to discuss though, but that
should be easy enough as we mentioned it on the list
already and I think folks are ok with the sentiment and
we'll just need to get the right words. Anyway, my
blocking point is:

I think you need to add something to the effect that this
WG will not invent any new cryptography. (It is likely to
be asked to, since smaller-footprint is a requirement
that leads towards that.) I'd suggest adding "The COSE WG
will not innovate in terms of cryptography.  Any
algorithms to be used in COSE that are not already
well-established for use as part of some IETF standards
track specification will need to be checked via the CFRG
before being adopted here." I'm fine with other wordings,
what I wanted the above to allow was a bit more that just
what is already MTI in standards track RFCs, but to not
allow every single algorithm that has even gotten an IANA
code point somewhere to be just adopted as MTI by COSE.
And of course, for anything that is actually new to have to
go via CFRG first.

After we resolve this, I'll be balloting YES.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------


- I think you could (and maybe should) lose all the
references to JOSE - this work involves re-doing all of
the same things, and won't be interoperable so I don't
see any value in re-use of registries to be honest. (And
maybe there is potential for minor confusion/harm there.)
I read the current text with all it's JOSE references as
trying to justify that the work is not just more JOSE
(both involve a lot of the same people), but at the same
time saying "this is like JOSE." And I don't think that
is needed - if there is real use of CBOR, then there will
be a real use of COSE. That doesn't depend on JOSE at
all, but more on whether folks see CBOR as being better
than JSON. The crypto primitives will just follow from
the application developer's chosen form of structured
encoding.

- The text assumes that ACE, DICE and CORE are already
bought into CBOR. I don't believe that is necessarily the
case, though I'd not be surprised if a bunch of folks
would argue for it to be the case.

- The milestone dates are nonsense. I'll buy the chairs a
beverage if they happen though. It is fine if folks want
to believe those dates though.



From nobody Tue Apr 28 08:26:42 2015
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From: Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com>
To: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
References: <017601d07cad$0f29f9e0$2d7deda0$@augustcellars.com> <C246B2B0-34CC-4DEF-967C-46AE9FCF692A@vpnc.org> <sjm4mo887ka.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <024801d07d2d$6137c6b0$23a75410$@augustcellars.com> <sjmvbgm7uz8.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <04a401d07ef6$827dc700$87795500$@augustcellars.com> <CAF2hCbZN7rvKyX=z8sUXUSRpT9X0YqvTMaHWLpXRM2BOBd2gag@mail.gmail.com> <sjmwq0x4qgl.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <CAF2hCbYhsgN9_2aH-Uw1J+yMaahcH4B8_G=DzemF5Rz50C5Dgg@mail.gmail.com> <021b01d081b8$da342380$8e9c6a80$@augustcellars.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 11:26:36 -0400
In-Reply-To: <021b01d081b8$da342380$8e9c6a80$@augustcellars.com> (Jim Schaad's message of "Tue, 28 Apr 2015 06:40:11 -0700")
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue: Use arrays for some containers
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"Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com> writes:

> I think that you are going to be disappointed in terms of readability.=C2=
=A0
> Remember that we are using integer key names for the most part so you are=
 not
> going to get any useful hints.=C2=A0 You are going to see something like
>
> { 1:{2:3, 4:h=E2=80=99xXXXXXXXXX=E2=80=99}, 5:h=E2=80=99XXXXXXXXXXXX=E2=
=80=99, 6:[{7:h=E2=80=99XXXXXX=E2=80=99}]}
>
> I don=E2=80=99t think that this is going to make life any easier if you d=
on=E2=80=99t remember
> what all of the indexes are vs where things are in an array.

Sure, the "on the wire" format would absolutely be integers.  Howeve I
can certainly see a translator (e.g. wireshark) that would provide a
"presentation" of strings by translating the "known integer tags" back
to their string "representations" by using the registry values:

 { foo:{bar:baz, quux:h=E2=80=99xXXXXXXXXX=E2=80=99}, biz:h=E2=80=99XXXXXXX=
XXXXX=E2=80=99, buz:[{boz:h=E2=80=99XXXXXX=E2=80=99}]}

> Jim

-derek

--=20
       Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
       derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
       Computer and Internet Security Consultant


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Subject: Re: [Cose] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-cose-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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On Apr 28, 2015, at 7:30 AM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> =
wrote:
> I'd suggest adding "The COSE WG
> will not innovate in terms of cryptography.  Any
> algorithms to be used in COSE that are not already
> well-established for use as part of some IETF standards
> track specification will need to be checked via the CFRG
> before being adopted here."

That idea sounds OK to me, but "well-established" is quite mushy, and it =
is not clear why COSE cannot describe the wire format for things that =
are in Experimental RFCs, since there is more push to go to Experimental =
for early IoT work. Also, some IETF WGs might be blocked by that =
wording. Further, you have already said on the COSE list that asking the =
CFRG is not always a good use of time.

How about:

The COSE WG will not innovate in terms of cryptography.  The =
specifiation of algorithms in COSE is limited to those in RFCs or active =
IETF WG documents.

> I'm fine with other wordings,
> what I wanted the above to allow was a bit more that just
> what is already MTI in standards track RFCs, but to not
> allow every single algorithm that has even gotten an IANA
> code point somewhere to be just adopted as MTI by COSE.

The question of mandatory-to-implement is quite different than =
specifying how to list something on the wire. Personally, I hope COSE =
has no MTI algorithms, and that MTI is defined by the specs that use the =
COSE format.

> And of course, for anything that is actually new to have to
> go via CFRG first.

I think the proposed wording above should cover that.

> After we resolve this, I'll be balloting YES.

Let us know if the proposal above resolves this.

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
>=20
> - I think you could (and maybe should) lose all the
> references to JOSE - this work involves re-doing all of
> the same things, and won't be interoperable so I don't
> see any value in re-use of registries to be honest. (And
> maybe there is potential for minor confusion/harm there.)
> I read the current text with all it's JOSE references as
> trying to justify that the work is not just more JOSE
> (both involve a lot of the same people), but at the same
> time saying "this is like JOSE." And I don't think that
> is needed - if there is real use of CBOR, then there will
> be a real use of COSE. That doesn't depend on JOSE at
> all, but more on whether folks see CBOR as being better
> than JSON. The crypto primitives will just follow from
> the application developer's chosen form of structured
> encoding.

I would be fine with that, but there were strong suggestions earlier =
that we had to justify "why not just use JOSE".

> - The text assumes that ACE, DICE and CORE are already
> bought into CBOR.

Bosh. The text suggests that there might be interest from those WGs, =
which we have seen. If some specific text "assumes" any of them have =
"bought in", we can remove it.

> I don't believe that is necessarily the
> case, though I'd not be surprised if a bunch of folks
> would argue for it to be the case.
>=20
> - The milestone dates are nonsense. I'll buy the chairs a
> beverage if they happen though. It is fine if folks want
> to believe those dates though.

At some point, the IESG should agree whether new WGs should set =
milestones for what are supposed to be short-lived WGs "aggressively" or =
"based on historical precedent of WGs that didn't end when they should =
have". Until then, please don't ask forming WGs to read the IESG's mind. =
:-)

--Paul Hoffman=


From nobody Tue Apr 28 09:06:41 2015
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-cose-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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Hiya,

tl;dr - make that or an equivalent change and I'll s/block/yes/

On 28/04/15 16:32, Paul Hoffman wrote:
> On Apr 28, 2015, at 7:30 AM, Stephen Farrell
> <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>> I'd suggest adding "The COSE WG will not innovate in terms of
>> cryptography.  Any algorithms to be used in COSE that are not
>> already well-established for use as part of some IETF standards 
>> track specification will need to be checked via the CFRG before
>> being adopted here."
> 
> That idea sounds OK to me, but "well-established" is quite mushy, and
> it is not clear why COSE cannot describe the wire format for things
> that are in Experimental RFCs, since there is more push to go to
> Experimental for early IoT work. Also, some IETF WGs might be blocked
> by that wording. 

All fair comment.

> Further, you have already said on the COSE list that
> asking the CFRG is not always a good use of time.
> 
> How about:
> 
> The COSE WG will not innovate in terms of cryptography.  The
> specifiation of algorithms in COSE is limited to those in RFCs or
> active IETF WG documents.

Yeah but... that would allow e.g. ibs [1] and ibake [2] and
other oddities that we probably don't want the WG to have to
bother with. Note: I'm not saying (here:-) either of those is
bad, nor that they'd be suggested here, they're just examples
of not-well-established algs that are ok according to the
above. (And full disclosure, I have a DISCUSS on [1] - afaik
there are no published analyses of it at all.)

But yes, the WG would of course almost certainly be
sensible and say "no thanks" if someone suggests those be
selected. I think some form of words that allows the WG to
not even bother having to discuss oddball stuff like that
would be better.

That said, I'm fine with unblocking and treating that as a
comment if your words (or similar) are added. We can try
improve that wording as we go along.

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-ibs-03
[2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6539

>> I'm fine with other wordings, what I wanted the above to allow was
>> a bit more that just what is already MTI in standards track RFCs,
>> but to not allow every single algorithm that has even gotten an
>> IANA code point somewhere to be just adopted as MTI by COSE.
> 
> The question of mandatory-to-implement is quite different than
> specifying how to list something on the wire. 

Yep. OTOH, if something is MTI in a standards track RFC then
that does kind of mean it's likely well-established. That's
all I was going after there but I also agree it's not a perfect
proxy for "well-established."

> Personally, I hope COSE
> has no MTI algorithms, and that MTI is defined by the specs that use
> the COSE format.

#include <usual-arguments.h> :-)

>> And of course, for anything that is actually new to have to go via
>> CFRG first.
> 
> I think the proposed wording above should cover that.
> 
>> After we resolve this, I'll be balloting YES.
> 
> Let us know if the proposal above resolves this.

It resolves the block yes, but I'd still like better wording
if someone has some to offer.

> 
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> 
COMMENT:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> 
- I think you could (and maybe should) lose all the
>> references to JOSE - this work involves re-doing all of the same
>> things, and won't be interoperable so I don't see any value in
>> re-use of registries to be honest. (And maybe there is potential
>> for minor confusion/harm there.) I read the current text with all
>> it's JOSE references as trying to justify that the work is not just
>> more JOSE (both involve a lot of the same people), but at the same 
>> time saying "this is like JOSE." And I don't think that is needed -
>> if there is real use of CBOR, then there will be a real use of
>> COSE. That doesn't depend on JOSE at all, but more on whether folks
>> see CBOR as being better than JSON. The crypto primitives will just
>> follow from the application developer's chosen form of structured 
>> encoding.
> 
> I would be fine with that, but there were strong suggestions earlier
> that we had to justify "why not just use JOSE".

Sure, I can see that that was an issue. Maybe it's a thing of
the past now though? I'm not sure.

The point about pros and cons of shared registries though could
be worth some thought, so be good if the final charter doesn't
tie the WG's hands on that I reckon.

>> - The text assumes that ACE, DICE and CORE are already bought into
>> CBOR.
> 
> Bosh. The text suggests that there might be interest from those WGs,
> which we have seen. If some specific text "assumes" any of them have
> "bought in", we can remove it.

Well it does say that COSE is supposed to "fulfil[...] the needs of
those constituencies" which is a bit presumptuous as it does assume
that those WGs care about CBOR. I assume there's a missing "to
the extent relevant to their work" or some such.

>> I don't believe that is necessarily the case, though I'd not be
>> surprised if a bunch of folks would argue for it to be the case.
>> 
>> - The milestone dates are nonsense. I'll buy the chairs a beverage
>> if they happen though. It is fine if folks want to believe those
>> dates though.
> 
> At some point, the IESG should agree whether new WGs should set
> milestones for what are supposed to be short-lived WGs "aggressively"
> or "based on historical precedent of WGs that didn't end when they
> should have". Until then, please don't ask forming WGs to read the
> IESG's mind. :-)

The IESG does not have a mind. It has 15 regularly changing
minds:-)

Cheers,
S.


> 
> --Paul Hoffman _______________________________________________ Cose
> mailing list Cose@ietf.org 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
> 


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Subject: Re: [Cose] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-cose-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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On Apr 28, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> =
wrote:

> tl;dr - make that or an equivalent change and I'll s/block/yes/

Cool, thanks. I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that I don't know how to =
make a change to a proposed charter while it is in IESG evaluation. Does =
someone for the not-yet-WG do so? Or does the sponsoring AD do so?

> On 28/04/15 16:32, Paul Hoffman wrote:
>> On Apr 28, 2015, at 7:30 AM, Stephen Farrell
>> <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>>> I'd suggest adding "The COSE WG will not innovate in terms of
>>> cryptography.  Any algorithms to be used in COSE that are not
>>> already well-established for use as part of some IETF standards=20
>>> track specification will need to be checked via the CFRG before
>>> being adopted here."
>>=20
>> That idea sounds OK to me, but "well-established" is quite mushy, and
>> it is not clear why COSE cannot describe the wire format for things
>> that are in Experimental RFCs, since there is more push to go to
>> Experimental for early IoT work. Also, some IETF WGs might be blocked
>> by that wording.=20
>=20
> All fair comment.
>=20
>> Further, you have already said on the COSE list that
>> asking the CFRG is not always a good use of time.
>>=20
>> How about:
>>=20
>> The COSE WG will not innovate in terms of cryptography.  The
>> specifiation of algorithms in COSE is limited to those in RFCs or
>> active IETF WG documents.
>=20
> Yeah but... that would allow e.g. ibs [1] and ibake [2] and
> other oddities that we probably don't want the WG to have to
> bother with.

The COSE WG doesn't *have* to bother with any particular crypto, and I =
suspect that a sane WG won't try to cover all types. After the COSE WG =
is done, as long as someone who cares about both Algorithm Foo and COSE =
can write their own specification, all is well. The same was true for =
CMS, OpenPGP, and so on.

> Note: I'm not saying (here:-) either of those is
> bad, nor that they'd be suggested here, they're just examples
> of not-well-established algs that are ok according to the
> above. (And full disclosure, I have a DISCUSS on [1] - afaik
> there are no published analyses of it at all.)

There is a lot of crypto that most of us who are interested in COSE =
don't care about.=20

> But yes, the WG would of course almost certainly be
> sensible and say "no thanks" if someone suggests those be
> selected. I think some form of words that allows the WG to
> not even bother having to discuss oddball stuff like that
> would be better.

Hard to do that without being insulting. I think the current wording is =
fine, and if someone interprets the charter as to mean "must handle =
every possible algorithm", that's their issue.

> That said, I'm fine with unblocking and treating that as a
> comment if your words (or similar) are added. We can try
> improve that wording as we go along.

Or they might never appear, just as they did not for various other =
wire-format WGs.

> It resolves the block yes, but I'd still like better wording
> if someone has some to offer.

Great.

> The point about pros and cons of shared registries though could
> be worth some thought, so be good if the final charter doesn't
> tie the WG's hands on that I reckon.

That's a good point, given that the not-yet-WG is already diverging from =
JOSE on "is a MAC a signature". I'd be fine with removing "COSE will =
rely on the JOSE registries, and will expand them with additional =
information when necessary" from the charter, even if the WG ends up =
wanting to do that.

--Paul Hoffman=


From nobody Tue Apr 28 09:39:00 2015
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To: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-cose-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 28, 2015, at 12:27 PM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> wrote:
>=20
>> On Apr 28, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> w=
rote:
>>=20
>> tl;dr - make that or an equivalent change and I'll s/block/yes/
>=20
> Cool, thanks. I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that I don't know how to make=
 a change to a proposed charter while it is in IESG evaluation. Does someone=
 for the not-yet-WG do so? Or does the sponsoring AD do so?
>=20

I can do it, but it would be good to hear from more than one person and to s=
ee if there is better wording as requested.

Thanks,
Kathleen=20
>>> On 28/04/15 16:32, Paul Hoffman wrote:
>>> On Apr 28, 2015, at 7:30 AM, Stephen Farrell
>>> <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>>>> I'd suggest adding "The COSE WG will not innovate in terms of
>>>> cryptography.  Any algorithms to be used in COSE that are not
>>>> already well-established for use as part of some IETF standards=20
>>>> track specification will need to be checked via the CFRG before
>>>> being adopted here."
>>>=20
>>> That idea sounds OK to me, but "well-established" is quite mushy, and
>>> it is not clear why COSE cannot describe the wire format for things
>>> that are in Experimental RFCs, since there is more push to go to
>>> Experimental for early IoT work. Also, some IETF WGs might be blocked
>>> by that wording.
>>=20
>> All fair comment.
>>=20
>>> Further, you have already said on the COSE list that
>>> asking the CFRG is not always a good use of time.
>>>=20
>>> How about:
>>>=20
>>> The COSE WG will not innovate in terms of cryptography.  The
>>> specifiation of algorithms in COSE is limited to those in RFCs or
>>> active IETF WG documents.
>>=20
>> Yeah but... that would allow e.g. ibs [1] and ibake [2] and
>> other oddities that we probably don't want the WG to have to
>> bother with.
>=20
> The COSE WG doesn't *have* to bother with any particular crypto, and I sus=
pect that a sane WG won't try to cover all types. After the COSE WG is done,=
 as long as someone who cares about both Algorithm Foo and COSE can write th=
eir own specification, all is well. The same was true for CMS, OpenPGP, and s=
o on.
>=20
>> Note: I'm not saying (here:-) either of those is
>> bad, nor that they'd be suggested here, they're just examples
>> of not-well-established algs that are ok according to the
>> above. (And full disclosure, I have a DISCUSS on [1] - afaik
>> there are no published analyses of it at all.)
>=20
> There is a lot of crypto that most of us who are interested in COSE don't c=
are about.=20
>=20
>> But yes, the WG would of course almost certainly be
>> sensible and say "no thanks" if someone suggests those be
>> selected. I think some form of words that allows the WG to
>> not even bother having to discuss oddball stuff like that
>> would be better.
>=20
> Hard to do that without being insulting. I think the current wording is fi=
ne, and if someone interprets the charter as to mean "must handle every poss=
ible algorithm", that's their issue.
>=20
>> That said, I'm fine with unblocking and treating that as a
>> comment if your words (or similar) are added. We can try
>> improve that wording as we go along.
>=20
> Or they might never appear, just as they did not for various other wire-fo=
rmat WGs.
>=20
>> It resolves the block yes, but I'd still like better wording
>> if someone has some to offer.
>=20
> Great.
>=20
>> The point about pros and cons of shared registries though could
>> be worth some thought, so be good if the final charter doesn't
>> tie the WG's hands on that I reckon.
>=20
> That's a good point, given that the not-yet-WG is already diverging from J=
OSE on "is a MAC a signature". I'd be fine with removing "COSE will rely on t=
he JOSE registries, and will expand them with additional information when ne=
cessary" from the charter, even if the WG ends up wanting to do that.
>=20
> --Paul Hoffman


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To: "'Derek Atkins'" <derek@ihtfp.com>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue: Use arrays for some containers
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Derek Atkins [mailto:derek@ihtfp.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2015 8:27 AM
> To: Jim Schaad
> Cc: 'Samuel Erdtman'; 'Derek Atkins'; 'cose'
> Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue: Use arrays for some containers
>=20
> "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com> writes:
>=20
> > I think that you are going to be disappointed in terms of =
readability.
> > Remember that we are using integer key names for the most part so =
you
> > are not going to get any useful hints.  You are going to see =
something
> > like
> >
> > { 1:{2:3, 4:h=E2=80=99xXXXXXXXXX=E2=80=99}, =
5:h=E2=80=99XXXXXXXXXXXX=E2=80=99, 6:[{7:h=E2=80=99XXXXXX=E2=80=99}]}
> >
> > I don=E2=80=99t think that this is going to make life any easier if =
you don=E2=80=99t
> > remember what all of the indexes are vs where things are in an =
array.
>=20
> Sure, the "on the wire" format would absolutely be integers.  Howeve I =
can
> certainly see a translator (e.g. wireshark) that would provide a =
"presentation"
> of strings by translating the "known integer tags" back to their =
string
> "representations" by using the registry values:
>=20
>  { foo:{bar:baz, quux:h=E2=80=99xXXXXXXXXX=E2=80=99}, =
biz:h=E2=80=99XXXXXXXXXXXX=E2=80=99,
> buz:[{boz:h=E2=80=99XXXXXX=E2=80=99}]}

Sure - but at that point the difference between array and map is =
marginal.  On can decorate the array just as easily as one decorates the =
map.

Jim

>=20
> > Jim
>=20
> -derek
>=20
> --
>        Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
>        derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
>        Computer and Internet Security Consultant


From nobody Tue Apr 28 14:29:42 2015
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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: "'Stephen Farrell'" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, "'The IESG'" <iesg@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-cose-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cose [mailto:cose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell
> Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2015 7:31 AM
> To: The IESG
> Cc: cose@ietf.org
> Subject: [Cose] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-cose-00-00: (with
> BLOCK and COMMENT)
> 
> Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-cose-00-00: Block
> 
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email
> addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory
> paragraph, however.)
> 
> 
> 
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-cose/
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> BLOCK:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I was initially skeptical of this work, doubting that there is really
sufficient real
> interest in CBOR to justify spending the time on a WG. However, (just
about)
> enough people argued that they would or are using CBOR to convince me that
> there could well be a real constituency here. And given that, I'd prefer
the
> work be done in the IETF rather than ad-hoc and possibly by some folks
who'd
> prioritise constrained-system requirements too much over security and
> privacy requirements. So in the end, I'm for doing this.
> 
> I do have one blocking thing to discuss though, but that should be easy
> enough as we mentioned it on the list already and I think folks are ok
with the
> sentiment and we'll just need to get the right words. Anyway, my blocking
> point is:
> 
> I think you need to add something to the effect that this WG will not
invent
> any new cryptography. (It is likely to be asked to, since
smaller-footprint is a
> requirement that leads towards that.) I'd suggest adding "The COSE WG will
> not innovate in terms of cryptography.  Any algorithms to be used in COSE
that
> are not already well-established for use as part of some IETF standards
track
> specification will need to be checked via the CFRG before being adopted
> here." I'm fine with other wordings, what I wanted the above to allow was
a bit
> more that just what is already MTI in standards track RFCs, but to not
allow
> every single algorithm that has even gotten an IANA code point somewhere
to
> be just adopted as MTI by COSE.
> And of course, for anything that is actually new to have to go via CFRG
first.

Stephen,

I am going to push back on this a bit.  The first question is what do you
mean by "new cryptography".    One of the algorithms mentioned on the list
was Pintsov-Vanstone Signatures with Message Recovery.  This was first
published at the latest of 1999 and appeared in IEEE P1363a (Jan 2000).   So
is an algorithm that has been around for on the order of 15 years "new
cryptography"?

Do you think it is better than a different working group - perhaps CORE-
did the innovation instead?  This language is not in the charter of any
other group that I am away of (think ACE?).  

What makes you think that the COSE working group would be any more likely to
do this that any other working group?

Jim

> 
> After we resolve this, I'll be balloting YES.
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> - I think you could (and maybe should) lose all the references to JOSE -
this
> work involves re-doing all of the same things, and won't be interoperable
so I
> don't see any value in re-use of registries to be honest. (And maybe there
is
> potential for minor confusion/harm there.) I read the current text with
all it's
> JOSE references as trying to justify that the work is not just more JOSE
(both
> involve a lot of the same people), but at the same time saying "this is
like
> JOSE." And I don't think that is needed - if there is real use of CBOR,
then
> there will be a real use of COSE. That doesn't depend on JOSE at all, but
more
> on whether folks see CBOR as being better than JSON. The crypto primitives
> will just follow from the application developer's chosen form of
structured
> encoding.
> 
> - The text assumes that ACE, DICE and CORE are already bought into CBOR. I
> don't believe that is necessarily the case, though I'd not be surprised if
a
> bunch of folks would argue for it to be the case.
> 
> - The milestone dates are nonsense. I'll buy the chairs a beverage if they
> happen though. It is fine if folks want to believe those dates though.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cose mailing list
> Cose@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


From nobody Tue Apr 28 14:40:50 2015
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Hiya,

On 28/04/15 22:28, Jim Schaad wrote:
> 
> I am going to push back on this a bit.  The first question is what do you
> mean by "new cryptography".    One of the algorithms mentioned on the list
> was Pintsov-Vanstone Signatures with Message Recovery.  This was first
> published at the latest of 1999 and appeared in IEEE P1363a (Jan 2000).   So
> is an algorithm that has been around for on the order of 15 years "new
> cryptography"?

I mean new to the IETF and suggested "well established" (in the IETF)
as the qualifier. I don't think any signature scheme with recovery
would qualify as well established in the IETF, but I'm open to
correction there. And yes, some schemes have been known for many
years, but longevity by itself does not mean that either the IPR
situation is clear nor that there are not going to be either better
more modern schemes nor does it imply the absence of implementation
pitfalls that we have yet to discover which is quite possible if
a scheme has only really existed in the lab until now.

> Do you think it is better than a different working group - perhaps CORE-
> did the innovation instead?  This language is not in the charter of any
> other group that I am away of (think ACE?).  
> 
> What makes you think that the COSE working group would be any more likely to
> do this that any other working group?

The code footprint requirement will lead to more requests for
unusual crypto. COSE is definitely going to be different in that
respect. I think that's already been seen on the list and your
example of message recovery is another indication that message
size issues will be different for COSE as well.

Cheers,
S.



From nobody Tue Apr 28 15:20:15 2015
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-cose-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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From nobody Tue Apr 28 15:25:41 2015
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 23:25:33 +0100
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-cose-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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Hiya,

On 28/04/15 23:20, GÃ¶ran Selander wrote:
> I donâ€™t understand how this formulation matches the conclusion in a
> previous thread:
> 
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00133.html
> 
> My interpretation of this previous thread is that COSE should compile
> requirements for crypto needed and ask CFRG for recommendations. 

If you'd said "new crypto" above, I'd agree that's a reasonable
thing. There's no need to ask CFRG if it's ok to use AES for
example and we know that COSE will define AES based things for
sure.

But characterising what is "new" and what to say about that in a
charter isn't trivial.

So I don't see any conflict between this discussion and that thread.

> If CFRG
> recommends algorithm X, why does it matter if it is an RFC or active IETF
> WG document? If it does matter and if it isnâ€™t, which WG should work on
> this?

I suspect that some people are (perhaps correctly) worried about how
that might impact on timelines too.

S.


From nobody Tue Apr 28 16:05:24 2015
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From: =?utf-8?B?R8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
Thread-Topic: [Cose] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-cose-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 23:05:14 +0000
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From nobody Tue Apr 28 16:22:29 2015
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-cose-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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On 29/04/15 00:05, GÃ¶ran Selander wrote:
> 
> Going back to the formulation about referencing IETF documents: if it is
> on one hand acknowledged that COSE algorithm requirements are allowed to
> be different (minimize message size, code size, and computational
> complexity), and on the other hand the specification of algorithms in COSE
> is limited to those in RFCs or active IETF WG documents, then how are the
> requirements going to be resolved within that charter?

In practice I'd say there aren't that many points where this'll
be an issue, but there will be some. What I mean by "be an
issue" are cases where a WG really ought get advice from CFRG.

Signatures with message recovery as Jim mentioned is one, another
is likely to be a desire to specify an entire suite of crypto
mechanisms built around a single algorithm (so things like AES-CMAC)
to minimise footprint.

I don't think there are likely to be many more than that, or at
least not many more on which there'd be rough consensus to want
to do something even slightly novel, but who knows. There is I
suppose a reasonable probability that some folks will show up
who have radically different algorithms and who argue that those
ought be supported, and directing folks like that to CFRG can
also be useful.

So I'd say it shouldn't be too big a problem, especially if the
charter gives the WG ways to avoid heading off into the weeds.
But I do think it's quite likely the WG will want to do something
for which we really ought check with crypto folks.

So I think it's fairly clear what we want the charter to say,
getting the perfect wording for that might be tricky, but I'd say
that getting something good enough (like Paul H's wording) isn't
hard.

Cheers,
S.


From nobody Tue Apr 28 21:04:32 2015
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From: =?utf-8?B?R8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
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From nobody Wed Apr 29 07:29:16 2015
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From: Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
References: <20150428143033.5998.43672.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <027201d081fa$3d7fb0d0$b87f1270$@augustcellars.com> <553FFE5B.10903@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 10:29:00 -0400
In-Reply-To: <553FFE5B.10903@cs.tcd.ie> (Stephen Farrell's message of "Tue, 28 Apr 2015 22:40:43 +0100")
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-cose-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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Stephen,

Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> writes:

> Hiya,
>
> On 28/04/15 22:28, Jim Schaad wrote:
>> 
>> I am going to push back on this a bit.  The first question is what do you
>> mean by "new cryptography".    One of the algorithms mentioned on the list
>> was Pintsov-Vanstone Signatures with Message Recovery.  This was first
>> published at the latest of 1999 and appeared in IEEE P1363a (Jan 2000).   So
>> is an algorithm that has been around for on the order of 15 years "new
>> cryptography"?
>
> I mean new to the IETF and suggested "well established" (in the IETF)
> as the qualifier. I don't think any signature scheme with recovery
> would qualify as well established in the IETF, but I'm open to
> correction there. And yes, some schemes have been known for many
> years, but longevity by itself does not mean that either the IPR
> situation is clear nor that there are not going to be either better
> more modern schemes nor does it imply the absence of implementation
> pitfalls that we have yet to discover which is quite possible if
> a scheme has only really existed in the lab until now.

I still think this is a bit wishy-washy.  However I think using Paul's
suggested text is still a good starting point.  I agree that COSE should
not be "inventing crypto" however I do think that the COSE
specifications should be flexible enough to allow additional crypto
algorithms.

>> Do you think it is better than a different working group - perhaps CORE-
>> did the innovation instead?  This language is not in the charter of any
>> other group that I am away of A(think ACE?).  
>> 
>> What makes you think that the COSE working group would be any more likely to
>> do this that any other working group?
>
> The code footprint requirement will lead to more requests for
> unusual crypto. COSE is definitely going to be different in that
> respect. I think that's already been seen on the list and your
> example of message recovery is another indication that message
> size issues will be different for COSE as well.

As a purveyor of one such "unusual crypto", I just need to say that I
suspect the COSE specs to be frameworks with some well-known, suggested
algorithms (my guess: ECDSA, ECDH, AES-CTR-or-something, AES-CMAC) in
there for all the core operations.  But I also think that different
users of the COSE specs will need to (and SHOULD) be able to plug in the
algorithms (e.g. AEDH) that make the most sense to them for their
applications.  So we should enable that capability.

> Cheers,
> S.

-derek
-- 
       Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
       derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
       Computer and Internet Security Consultant


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From: Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com>
To: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 10:30:24 -0400
In-Reply-To: <027101d081f3$8b547b30$a1fd7190$@augustcellars.com> (Jim Schaad's message of "Tue, 28 Apr 2015 13:40:19 -0700")
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue: Use arrays for some containers
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"Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com> writes:

[snip]
>>  { foo:{bar:baz, quux:h=E2=80=99xXXXXXXXXX=E2=80=99}, biz:h=E2=80=99XXXX=
XXXXXXXX=E2=80=99,
>> buz:[{boz:h=E2=80=99XXXXXX=E2=80=99}]}
>
> Sure - but at that point the difference between array and map is
> marginal.  On can decorate the array just as easily as one decorates
> the map.

Probably true; I feel that maps map easier to the decoration, but I've
never implemented it so couldn't tell you how much more work it would be
to decorate an array.

> Jim

-derek

--=20
       Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
       derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
       Computer and Internet Security Consultant


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Hiya,

I'm fine with all you say, but wanted to note one thing...

On 29/04/15 15:29, Derek Atkins wrote:
> As a purveyor of one such "unusual crypto"

Right. And you did the exactly right thing with that so far,
bringing it up in CFRG etc.

S.


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References: <017601d07cad$0f29f9e0$2d7deda0$@augustcellars.com> <C246B2B0-34CC-4DEF-967C-46AE9FCF692A@vpnc.org> <sjm4mo887ka.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <024801d07d2d$6137c6b0$23a75410$@augustcellars.com> <sjmvbgm7uz8.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <04a401d07ef6$827dc700$87795500$@augustcellars.com> <CAF2hCbZN7rvKyX=z8sUXUSRpT9X0YqvTMaHWLpXRM2BOBd2gag@mail.gmail.com> <sjmwq0x4qgl.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <CAF2hCbYhsgN9_2aH-Uw1J+yMaahcH4B8_G=DzemF5Rz50C5Dgg@mail.gmail.com> <021b01d081b8$da342380$8e9c6a80$@augustcellars.com> <sjm1tj446kz.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <027101d081f3$8b547b30$a1fd7190$@augustcellars.com> <sjmsibj0zy7.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue: Use arrays for some containers
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Derek Atkins wrote:
>> Sure - but at that point the difference between array and map is
>> > marginal.  On can decorate the array just as easily as one decorates
>> > the map.
> 
> Probably true; I feel that maps map easier to the decoration, but I've
> never implemented it so couldn't tell you how much more work it would be
> to decorate an array.

Actually, we thought about this a bit when designing CDDL:
That's why you can give a name to array members.
A CDDL-based pretty-printer could use that information to print even
prettier.

I probably should mention that I'm a bit uneasy about the current
thread.  Applying hard-earned design taste is good.  However, there are
cold hard numbers to look at, as well.  Jim has generated some of them.
 I'd sure like to see numbers for applications such as
draft-selander-ace-object-security that contrast the choices here.  (As
I said, my hunch is that arrays are right for the outer structure, but
numbers! numbers!)  We are doing this for the people who truncate the
CCM authenticator from 16 to 8 bytes because they can't afford more...

GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten


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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 23:29:58 +0800
From: "Kepeng Li" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
To: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Cose] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-cose-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-cose-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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>I can do it, but it would be good to hear from more than one person and
>to see if there is better wording as requested.


I can help to consolidate the proposed changes and hopefully make it
easier for you. :-)

The proposed changes so far:

1) Add one paragraph below (proposed by Paul):
The COSE WG will not innovate in terms of cryptography.  The specifiation
of algorithms in COSE is limited to those in RFCs or active IETF WG
documents.


2) Remove one sentence below (proposed by Paul):
COSE will rely on the JOSE registries, and will expand them with
additional information when necessary.


3) Change one sentence below (proposed by Stephen)
OLD:
The working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CORE
working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these
Constituencies.


NEW:
The working group will coordinate its progress with the ACE, DICE and CORE
working groups to ensure that we are fulfilling the needs of these
Constituencies to the extent relevant to their work.


Thanks,

Kind Regards
Kepeng



=D4=DA 29/4/15 12:38 am=A3=AC "Kathleen Moriarty" <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com=
>
=D0=B4=C8=EB:

>
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Apr 28, 2015, at 12:27 PM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
>>wrote:
>>=20
>>> On Apr 28, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Stephen Farrell
>>><stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> tl;dr - make that or an equivalent change and I'll s/block/yes/
>>=20
>> Cool, thanks. I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that I don't know how to
>>make a change to a proposed charter while it is in IESG evaluation. Does
>>someone for the not-yet-WG do so? Or does the sponsoring AD do so?
>>=20
>
>I can do it, but it would be good to hear from more than one person and
>to see if there is better wording as requested.
>
>Thanks,
>Kathleen

>



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> The milestone dates are nonsense. I'll buy the chairs a
> beverage if they happen though. It is fine if folks want
> to believe those dates though.


I checked the other charters, usually they put one year between submitting
a document as WG item and submitting a document to the IESG.

Also we need a F2F meeting to discuss the drafts before adopting them, so
I propose to change June to July.

How about this:

OLD:
Jan 2016 Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to the IESG, for
publication as a Proposed Standard
Jan 2016 Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for publication as a
Proposed Standard
Jun 2015 Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as a WG item
Jun 2015 Submit COSE specification as a WG item


NEW:
Jul 2016 Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to the IESG, for
publication as a Proposed Standard
Jul 2016 Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for publication as a
Proposed Standard
Jul 2015 Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as a WG item
Jul 2015 Submit COSE specification as a WG item


Kind Regards
Kepeng

=D4=DA 28/4/15 10:30 pm=A3=AC "Stephen Farrell" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> =D0=B4=C8=EB:

>Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for
>charter-ietf-cose-00-00: Block
>
>When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
>
>The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-cose/
>
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>BLOCK:
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I was initially skeptical of this work, doubting that
>there is really sufficient real interest in CBOR to
>justify spending the time on a WG. However, (just about)
>enough people argued that they would or are using CBOR to
>convince me that there could well be a real constituency
>here. And given that, I'd prefer the work be done in the
>IETF rather than ad-hoc and possibly by some folks who'd
>prioritise constrained-system requirements too much over
>security and privacy requirements. So in the end, I'm for
>doing this.
>
>I do have one blocking thing to discuss though, but that
>should be easy enough as we mentioned it on the list
>already and I think folks are ok with the sentiment and
>we'll just need to get the right words. Anyway, my
>blocking point is:
>
>I think you need to add something to the effect that this
>WG will not invent any new cryptography. (It is likely to
>be asked to, since smaller-footprint is a requirement
>that leads towards that.) I'd suggest adding "The COSE WG
>will not innovate in terms of cryptography.  Any
>algorithms to be used in COSE that are not already
>well-established for use as part of some IETF standards
>track specification will need to be checked via the CFRG
>before being adopted here." I'm fine with other wordings,
>what I wanted the above to allow was a bit more that just
>what is already MTI in standards track RFCs, but to not
>allow every single algorithm that has even gotten an IANA
>code point somewhere to be just adopted as MTI by COSE.
>And of course, for anything that is actually new to have to
>go via CFRG first.
>
>After we resolve this, I'll be balloting YES.
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>COMMENT:
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>- I think you could (and maybe should) lose all the
>references to JOSE - this work involves re-doing all of
>the same things, and won't be interoperable so I don't
>see any value in re-use of registries to be honest. (And
>maybe there is potential for minor confusion/harm there.)
>I read the current text with all it's JOSE references as
>trying to justify that the work is not just more JOSE
>(both involve a lot of the same people), but at the same
>time saying "this is like JOSE." And I don't think that
>is needed - if there is real use of CBOR, then there will
>be a real use of COSE. That doesn't depend on JOSE at
>all, but more on whether folks see CBOR as being better
>than JSON. The crypto primitives will just follow from
>the application developer's chosen form of structured
>encoding.
>
>- The text assumes that ACE, DICE and CORE are already
>bought into CBOR. I don't believe that is necessarily the
>case, though I'd not be surprised if a bunch of folks
>would argue for it to be the case.
>
>- The milestone dates are nonsense. I'll buy the chairs a
>beverage if they happen though. It is fine if folks want
>to believe those dates though.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Cose mailing list
>Cose@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose



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On Apr 29, 2015, at 8:41 AM, Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> =
wrote:
>> The milestone dates are nonsense. I'll buy the chairs a
>> beverage if they happen though. It is fine if folks want
>> to believe those dates though.
>=20
>=20
> I checked the other charters, usually they put one year between =
submitting
> a document as WG item and submitting a document to the IESG.
>=20
> Also we need a F2F meeting to discuss the drafts before adopting them, =
so
> I propose to change June to July.
>=20
> How about this:
>=20
> OLD:
> Jan 2016 Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to the IESG, =
for
> publication as a Proposed Standard
> Jan 2016 Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for publication as a
> Proposed Standard
> Jun 2015 Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as a WG item
> Jun 2015 Submit COSE specification as a WG item
>=20
>=20
> NEW:
> Jul 2016 Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms to the IESG, =
for
> publication as a Proposed Standard
> Jul 2016 Submit COSE specification to the IESG, for publication as a
> Proposed Standard
> Jul 2015 Submit COSE constrained-appropriate algorithms as a WG item
> Jul 2015 Submit COSE specification as a WG item

This was meant to be a short-lived WG for two focused items; it should =
not take a year to do this. Stephen might be right and we miss the goal =
of finishing this year, but I'd like to make him buy someone a beverage.

I also disagree that we need a F2F meeting on this at all. The mailing =
list is already working well on the early hard questions. If we can meet =
at an IETF meeting, great. If we need additional meetings, we can have a =
virtual interim. Please: let's not make this a "reason to travel" WG.

--Paul Hoffman=


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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 17:47:00 +0200
From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Cose] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-cose-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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--5540fcf4_4d9b986b_2525
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On 29 Apr 2015 at 17:42:13, Kepeng Li (kepeng.lkp=40alibaba-inc.com) wrot=
e:
I checked the other charters, usually they put one year between submittin=
g=C2=A0
a document as WG item and submitting a document to the IESG.=C2=A0
We are not those other WGs.

Also we need a =462=46 meeting to discuss the drafts before adopting them=
, so=C2=A0
I propose to change June to July.=C2=A0
We do not need an =462=46 meeting for *adopting* a draft.

Can we please adopt Jim=E2=80=99s draft about a nanosecond after creating=
 the WG=3F =C2=A0We will have had enough time to determine whether this i=
s a document that can substantially form the basis for the WG=E2=80=99s r=
esult (as in, yes).

(We also don=E2=80=99t need one for generating consensus on one to ship i=
t to the IESG, but let=E2=80=99s see whether we do want to make use of Pr=
ague.)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
--5540fcf4_4d9b986b_2525
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<html><head><style>body=7Bfont-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px=7D</=
style></head><body style=3D=22word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s=
pace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;=22><div id=3D=22bloop=5Fcust=
omfont=22 style=3D=22font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: r=
gba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;=22>On 29 Apr 2015 at 17:4=
2:13, Kepeng Li (<a href=3D=22mailto:kepeng.lkp=40alibaba-inc.com=22>kepe=
ng.lkp=40alibaba-inc.com</a>) wrote:</div> <div><blockquote type=3D=22cit=
e=22 class=3D=22clean=5Fbq=22 style=3D=22color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family=
: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: no=
rmal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; o=
rphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke=
-width: 0px;=22><span><div><span style=3D=22color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-fam=
ily: 'helvetica Neue', helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; fo=
nt-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-hei=
ght: 19.5px; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tra=
nsform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webk=
it-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =21important;=22>=
I checked the other charters, usually they put one year between submittin=
g<span class=3D=22Apple-converted-space=22>&nbsp;</span></span><br style=3D=
=22color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'helvetica Neue', helvetica; font-si=
ze: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 19.5px; orphans: auto; text-align: s=
tart; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows=
: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;=22><span style=
=3D=22color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'helvetica Neue', helvetica; font=
-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: norma=
l; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 19.5px; orphans: auto; text-align=
: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; wid=
ows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none=
; display: inline =21important;=22>a document as WG item and submitting a=
 document to the IESG.<span class=3D=22Apple-converted-space=22>&nbsp;</s=
pan></span></div></span></blockquote></div><p>We are not those other WGs.=
</p><div><div><blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 class=3D=22clean=5Fbq=22 styl=
e=3D=22color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13p=
x; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-=
spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; t=
ext-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;=
 word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;=22><span><div><span s=
tyle=3D=22color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'helvetica Neue', helvetica; =
font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: n=
ormal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 19.5px; orphans: auto; text-a=
lign: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;=
 widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline =21important;=22>Also we need a =462=46 meeting to =
discuss the drafts before adopting them, so<span class=3D=22Apple-convert=
ed-space=22>&nbsp;</span></span><br style=3D=22color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-=
family: 'helvetica Neue', helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal;=
 font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-=
height: 19.5px; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-=
transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -w=
ebkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;=22><span style=3D=22color: rgb(0, 0, 0); fo=
nt-family: 'helvetica Neue', helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: norm=
al; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; li=
ne-height: 19.5px; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; te=
xt-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;=
 -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =21importan=
t;=22>I propose to change June to July.<span class=3D=22Apple-converted-s=
pace=22>&nbsp;</span></span></div></span></blockquote></div><p>We do not =
need an =462=46 meeting for *adopting* a draft.</p><p>Can we please adopt=
 Jim=E2=80=99s draft about a nanosecond after creating the WG=3F &nbsp;We=
 will have had enough time to determine whether this is a document that c=
an substantially form the basis for the WG=E2=80=99s result (as in, yes).=
</p><p>(We also don=E2=80=99t need one for generating consensus on one to=
 ship it to the IESG, but let=E2=80=99s see whether we do want to make us=
e of Prague.)</p><p>Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten</p></div></body></html>
--5540fcf4_4d9b986b_2525--


From nobody Thu Apr 30 07:54:06 2015
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From: Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
References: <017601d07cad$0f29f9e0$2d7deda0$@augustcellars.com> <C246B2B0-34CC-4DEF-967C-46AE9FCF692A@vpnc.org> <sjm4mo887ka.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <024801d07d2d$6137c6b0$23a75410$@augustcellars.com> <sjmvbgm7uz8.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <04a401d07ef6$827dc700$87795500$@augustcellars.com> <CAF2hCbZN7rvKyX=z8sUXUSRpT9X0YqvTMaHWLpXRM2BOBd2gag@mail.gmail.com> <sjmwq0x4qgl.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <CAF2hCbYhsgN9_2aH-Uw1J+yMaahcH4B8_G=DzemF5Rz50C5Dgg@mail.gmail.com> <021b01d081b8$da342380$8e9c6a80$@augustcellars.com> <sjm1tj446kz.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <027101d081f3$8b547b30$a1fd7190$@augustcellars.com> <sjmsibj0zy7.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <5540F410.1090906@tzi.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 10:53:58 -0400
In-Reply-To: <5540F410.1090906@tzi.org> (Carsten Bormann's message of "Wed, 29 Apr 2015 17:09:04 +0200")
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Cc: 'Samuel Erdtman' <samuel@erdtman.se>, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, 'cose' <cose@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Cose] Issue: Use arrays for some containers
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Hi,

Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> writes:

>        However, there are
> cold hard numbers to look at, as well.  Jim has generated some of them.
>  I'd sure like to see numbers for applications such as
> draft-selander-ace-object-security that contrast the choices here.  (As
> I said, my hunch is that arrays are right for the outer structure, but
> numbers! numbers!)  We are doing this for the people who truncate the
> CCM authenticator from 16 to 8 bytes because they can't afford more...

I agree, I'd like to see more numbers.  From what Jim presented in
Dallas I didn't see any significant gains from one choice over the
other.  Maybe I misinterpreted?

In my use case it's going to be a Digital Signature object that matters
most to me.

> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

-derek
--=20
       Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
       derek@ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
       Computer and Internet Security Consultant


From nobody Thu Apr 30 15:51:04 2015
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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 15:49:41 -0700
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Subject: [Cose] Issue Closed:  Create separate MAC structure
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Nobody has made an argument that we should not do this.

This decision leads to no changes in the current draft as it already has =
separated the signature and MAC structures to be different.

Jim



From nobody Thu Apr 30 15:58:40 2015
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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 15:57:17 -0700
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Subject: [Cose] Key management in the World of COSE
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I wanted to try and look closer at Carsten's call for more numbers in
different applications, but before I can do that I need to figure out what
applications there are and which ones are currently thought to be of greater
importance.  I have tried to start by looking at the different security
constructs that may be used for these applications in terms of what the
needed security characteristics are.

1. Integrity based on recipient asymmetric key:  I expect that this is not a
common scenario to happen for CoRE systems.  This scenario requires that the
sender get a certified public key for the recipient and uses that, along
with some ephemeral data local to it, to create a short term shared secret
used to protect the integrity of the message.  This scenario provides no
indication of where the data originated, thus it can be used to create a
message for multiple recipients.  An example of how this would be
implemented is the use of CBC-MAC with ECDH-ES key agreement plus KDF.

2. Integrity and low-level origination based on a short term shared key:
Under the current system this would be setup using a DTLS session along with
an extractor to establish the key.  The key would be for "short-term" use
(i.e.  hours not days or weeks).  The option only provides for
point-to-point integrity not end-to-end integrity.  Integrity can be forged
by any party that knows the shared-secret.  In this mode, there needs to be
a single recipient of the message.  If this condition is met, origination is
shown by saying "I did not make this message so the other party must have
done so." Origin of the message cannot be proved to a third party.  An
example of how this would be implemented is the use of CBC-MAC with direct
key.

3.  Integrity and low-level origination based on a long term shared key:
Under the current system this would be setup using a pair-wise key
established between two entities.  The key would be for "long-term" use
(i.e.  weeks or months).  Given that this is a long term used key, the
problem of replay and potential forgeries is greater.   For this reason,
some type of key derivation on the shared security would be suggested. The
option only provides for end-to-end integrity between the parties.
Integrity can be forged by any party that knows the shared-secret.  In this
mode, there needs to be a single recipient of the message.  If this
condition is met, origination is shown by saying "I did not make this
message so the other party must have done so." Origin of the message cannot
be proved to a third party.  An example of how this would be implemented is
the use of CBC-MAC with direct key plus KDF.

4.  Integrity and low-level origination based on two asymmetric keys: This
scenario requires that both the recipient and sender of the message have
well known key agreement keys.  Both entities must be able to get these
either from a trusted third party or over some type of protocol that
includes doing a proof-of-possession check on both sides.  Once this is
done, a one-time shared security is generated that is used to provide both
end-to-end integrity protection and a degree of origination knowledge.
Origination of the message cannot be proved to a third party.  Both parties
must have a key that is in the same group.  A uniqueness value must be
interjected into the key agreement process by at least one of the parties.
It is sufficient that a counter be used for this purposes, it is not
necessary for this value to be random.  An example of how this would be
implemented is the use of CBC-MAC with a ECDH-SS key agreement plus KDF.  

5. Integrity and high-level origination based on sender asymmetric key:
This scenario requires that a true signature algorithm be defined and used
as well as the ability for a recipient to query a trusted third party that
the binding of identity and public key is true.  Using this allows for the
origination and integrity of a message to be proved to a third party, the
signature is not directed at any specific party.  An example of how this
would be implemented is the use of ECDSA with SHA-256.

6.  Confidentiality and integrity based on recipient asymmetric key: This
scenario shares most of the same functionality as does scenario 1.  The
required integrity can be obtained by the use of an AEAD algorithm rather
than a MAC algorithm.  An example of how this would be implemented is the
use of AES-CCM with ECDH-ES key agreement plus KDF.

7.  Confidentiality, integrity and low-level origination based on a short
term shared key: This scenario shares most of the same functionality as does
scenario 2.   The required integrity can be obtained by the use of an AEAD
algorithm rather than a MAC algorithm  An example of how this would be
implemented is the use of AES-CCM with direct key.

8. Confidentiality, integrity and low-level origination based on a long term
shared key:  This scenario shares most of the same functionality as does
scenario 3.  The required integrity can be obtained by the use of an AEAD
algorithm rather than a MAC algorithm.  An example of how this would be
implemented is the use of AES-CCM with direct key plus KDF.

9. Confidentiality, integrity and low-level origination based on two
asymmetric keys:  This scenario shares most of the same functionality as
does scenario 4.    The required integrity can be obtained by the use of an
AEAD algorithm rather than a MAC algorithm.  An example of how this would be
implemented is the use of AES-CCM with ECDH-SS key agreement plus KDF.

10. Confidentiality, integrity and high-level origination based on sender
asymmetric key:  This scenario shares the integrity and origination
requirements of scenario 5, however the algorithm choice there does not
provide an confidentiality.  A different confidentiality mechanism must be
used.  Any of the methods used in scenarios 5-9 could be used for this
purpose.  Getting both sets of functionality will required the use of a
wrapped message scenario where the signed message is wrapped inside of an
encrypted message.  (Attempting to do both in the same message was removed
between PKCS #7 and CMS due to security flaws.  It was possible to both
determine who the message signer was and to do traffic analysis on the
content of the message by looking at the hash of the resulting signature.)

Which of these ten scenarios do we believe are going to be commonly used?
What percentage of the time do we think these options are going to be used?
This will give us some starting data to look at which structures are going
to be the most commonly used and get a start on which fields in the
structures are going to be present.  There will be some follow on questions
to try and make this determination.

Jim



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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
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Subject: [Cose] Issue:  Identification of the top level objects
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Question:  Identification of objects:
a)  CBOR Tag - either general or specific to each type
b)  Required Identifier
c)  Use the same techniques as JOSE

Discussion:

One of the things that I have never liked with the JOSE document is the
method that is used to determine the type of object that one is dealing
with.   I would lie to get this corrected so that it is simple to make this
determination.  

The method used by JOSE can be found in Section 9 of the encryption draft
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-jose-json-web-encryption-40#section-9
).  It consists of looking at the keys in the top level map or by looking at
the value of the 'alg' header property in the message.  Based on this one
determines what the message type is.  Although not documented in this
section, there is also a header parameter 'typ' that, in theory, is used to
identify different types of a JOSE object.  This is based on the idea that a
"timestamp signature" should be marked as being different than a "normal
signature".  The 'typ' header parameter uses a Mime Media type as its value.

The current document uses an enumeration to make the determination what the
type of object is.  This allows for an open ended set of values where the
value can be changed if/when a new version of one of the structures is
created.  The enumeration could also be used to replace the 'typ' element by
assigning new values to it based on the special needs of a security
operation.  The use of an enumeration makes more sense for arrays than for
maps.  However, this could be translated by defining a new field to contain
the enumeration.

It has been suggested that CBOR Tags could be assigned to designate the
different security messages as well.  If this approach is done, I would
expect that new  versions would need to be identified by either a new field,
or by re-naming the map keys when items are changed.  It would not make
sense to keep adding new CBOR tags as the versions change unless it was a
complete re-design.

It would be possible to assign just a single CBOR Tag for identification of
COSE security objects in a message and then use one of the first two
techniques to determine which of the security objects is being used.

Jim



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Subject: [Cose] Issue: Encoding for a single recipient or structure
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Question: Flattened encoding -
a)  Roll into parent map
b)  Just be a map
c)  Single element in array

Discussion:

A late addition to the JOSE specification was the ability to fold a single
recipient map into the base encryption or signature map.  This is doable
because the keys for all of the maps in question are unique.  This would not
be true if the issue on reusing the encryption body for the recipient
structure is accepted.  This issue is being discussed in a separate mail
thread (but is current).  If arrays were to be used at the top level, one
just appends the elements to the end of the base structure  (see examples in
the current document).

There are three different options that can be selected at this point:

1)  The recipient/signature map is folded into the encryption/signing
message top level.  If we accept the change for using the same structure for
both the encryption body and the recipients, this is not a viable option due
to collisions of keys in the map.

2)  The recipient/signature element in the base map is permitted to be
either an array of recipient/signature elements or a single
recipient/signature map.  This option was rejected by the JOSE group as
being too complicated for programmers to deal with.  The cost of this option
is 2 bytes over option one.  (One byte for the recipients key, one byte for
the map marker.) 

CDDL grammar would be:  recipients: [+[recipient_data]] / {recipient_data}

3)  We do not support any special form of dealing with a single recipient.
The cost of this option is 3 bytes over option one.  (One byte for the
recipients key, one byte for the array marker, one byte for the map marker.)

CDDL grammar would be:  recipients: [+[recpient_data]]


From nobody Thu Apr 30 16:01:23 2015
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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
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Subject: [Cose] Issue:  Reuse the Enrypt structure for recipients
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Question:  Reuse Encrypt body map for recipients

Discussion:

The concept of using the same structure for both recipients and the base
encryption map was introduced to the JOSE working group at the Denver
meeting.  The JOSE working group rejected the idea as being too much of a
change to make in the current working code.  The concept is that the same
data structure, with the same elements is used to encode both the content
encryption and each of the recipient structures.  While in JOSE, many of the
same elements are not present in the recipient structure (i.e. iv and aad),
some of these elements later appeared as part of algorithm descriptions (iv
is a header parameter defined for AES-GCM key wrapping).

Using the same structure for encrypting content as well as encrypting keys
allows for some neat tricks to be played at a later date if needed.  One
example is that you could separate the key wrapping algorithm, and the
ECDH-KDF algorithm pair into separate layers.  This allows one to move
towards a Chinese Menu method of selecting and using algorithms rather than
the current algorithm suite method.  While I would not recommend that this
happen in the current specification, it might be nice to keep it open as an
option to be used in the future as new algorithms are added.

Another advantage of doing this folding is in code size.  In my
implementation, I have created the recipient class as inheriting from the
encryption body class.  The recipient class contains only code that deals
with the cryptography of key management.  All of the encoding/decoding is
handled by the base encryption class.   If the structures are kept separate
as they are today then that code would need to be added to the recipient
class.  While my code does not currently deal with idea of having multiple
layers of key management.  I believe that this would be a minimal addition
to the current code base.



From nobody Thu Apr 30 16:11:04 2015
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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: <cose@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 16:09:42 -0700
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Subject: [Cose] Not an algorithm draft
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I have a repository that is currently a drop of various thoughts that I have
for an algorithm draft.  This includes a number of things which I don't
currently believe should be in an algorithm draft as well.

Feel free to grab and add your own thoughts to mine.  I am sure that I am
missing things people want to talk about at some point in the future.

Remember, this draft is not targeted at being an algorithm draft, but some
of the text may be incorporated in the future.

https://github.com/cose-wg/alg-spec


jim


